# Sticky  Raw Feeders: Please post typical weekly menu



## briteday

There have been a number of members who are interested in starting to feed a raw diet. They generally have a lot of questions about what a typical raw diet would look like. I think most of us can agree that everyone does it differently, depending on their dog's need. If we can get some good, basic examples of weekly menus I will put this as a sticky at the top of the food forum so that the same questions are not asked repeatedly by new raw feeders. So please keep your post to the point and let's not turn this into who has the best way to feed raw. Thanks!

Here's a typical weekly menu at my house for three small dogs:

AM Meal: always whole chicken and organs

PM Meal: *one meal per week is heart, usually beef is most available
*one meal is whole, gutted fish (never feed pacific salmon, trout and if feeding fish you have caught always check the gut for hooks, sinkers, fishing line)
*one meal per week is a beef rib bone (the kind you bbq in slabs) and when they get it cleaned off they have it for recreational chewing in the house for a few days
*four meals per week are any muscle meat that I have, mostly pork & beef but I would like to offer more variety, working on sources

ADD INs: fish oil 2-4 times per wk, raw eggs 1-2 times per wk, tripe 1-3 times per wk

EXTRAs: anything I think they might like in small quantities, not figured in as part of the diet but rather to add variety to the diet...yogurt, cottage cheese, cheese cubes, vegetables, fruit, ...moderation is the key, for my small small dogs they get just a spoonful in a meal

I do not feed grains because I have one dog that is sensitive to all grains and my dogs do better with less carbs, they have better weight control.


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## Spicy1_VV

I don't always feed every dog exactly the samething at the same time. It depends what I have (or what stores I can get too, some that are a bit of a drive have different meat sources or cheaper prices), what each dog is doing at the time, what they need, their age, ect. 

Here are just some of my meal plans and various foods I feed. They can (and do for me) change/vary as you can feed one thing with another or change it up as you see fit. As long as you keep within correct ratios, varied sources and proper nutrition. 

Chicken Quarter/Beef Liver
Beef Brisket/Chick bone/Lamb Liver
Ground Beef/chick bone
Ground Turkey/chick bone
Chicken Quarter/Ground Beef/beef heart
Deer/Antelope roast
Rabbit meat/organs 
Turkey meat/organs
Duck meat/organs

Chicken breast, wings, feet, organs (backs on occasion, mostly to a couple specific dogs)
Caned mackerel or salmon
Steak trimming - the fat and small amount the meat
Salmon fillet I buy the big ones and cut them myself
Mutton can't get it close but wish we could
Goat rare occasion

Eggs 1-2 times per week
Ground egg shells


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## 4dogs3cats

Okay I know I need more variety and I am trying to figure out where to find it.

Every day chicken or turkey right off the bat. Thats their main food source.

Things they get during the week are

chicken gizzards
chicken livers (ugh they smell like egg its SO hard for me to open the container on liver night)
Beef heart
beef liver.

I was giving fish oil pills twice a week but Kody ate the whole bottle last week so I have to go get more.

Once a week they each get a raw egg.

For thos more experienced than me, PLEASE feel free to tweak my menu.. I am trying to hard to get a good balance, but I dont feel like I am giving enough variety.

Oh they also get vegetables tossed to them here and there.. when I am cooking.


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## Kathyy

I don't really do weekly, I pack meals when I shop.

Daily meal consists of a piece of chicken with bone. Add the bit of beef kidney or liver. Add boneless meat, beef or pork shoulder to make up the weight required. I have used beef heart and chicken gizzards as boneless meat as well. I have used pork ribs for the bony meat. Some meals are packed short weighted so I can add a raw egg yolk without going over the daily ounces. Daily I squirt fish oil and add two pinches of kelp. Twice a week I give a Vitamin E capsule.

Weekly he gets a beef rib, licks out his sister's food bowl, gets a bit of no salt added peanut butter when he gets his VE, dehydrated lamb lung and Natural Balance roll for training treats, licks my yogurt spoon, stuff that hits the floor when cooking, like that. 

My raw fed dog has gotten quite 'fluffy' over the past year. I really watch what I am feeding him. I suspect he isn't going to get down to his pre raw weight as I can now feel ribs, hips and shoulder blades and he has only lost 20% of the weight he gained. That is fine, I am looking for the abdomen to lose that cute little pudge now.

If I didn't pack meals I wouldn't be giving organ often enough. If I didn't pack meals I would be giving too much bone. I think it takes up less room in the freezer as well. 

I just started feeding once a day last week. So far, a success. He hasn't been hungry or been barfing [he has always been a big barfer!]. The poop is firmer. He eats everything in his bowl happily.


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## heidiann

We've been feeding raw since December, 2007. The "menu" we feed is what my mentor - for lack of a better word - helped get us started on raw with, so we've just kind of stuck with the same things. 

AM meal - Oma's Pride Turkey Mix which is 70% meat/bone, 10% organ meats (liver/hearts/gizzards), 20% vegetables (green been, yellow squash ,okra). We generally mix in a spoonful of canned pumpkin or natural applesauce or cottage cheese. On Saturdays I usually add in a raw egg as well. Oh, and we mix either green tripe or performance dog tripe in too if we have it. If we've run low or out of the mix, we'll buy ground beef and give them that.

PM meal is their bone meal and right now we have chicken backs. We get them in a 40lb case and break them down...freeze and thaw as needed. We have also fed turkey and chicken necks. 

Add ins...Topaz gets 1000mg of Taurine in his along with his medications (he's epileptic). We'll sometimes add in apple cider vinegar and had a supplement (O'Paws I think it was) for a while and when we started we would mix in extra virgin coconut oil, but we ran out.


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## Spicy1_VV

4dogs3cats said:


> Okay I know I need more variety and I am trying to figure out where to find it.
> 
> Every day chicken or turkey right off the bat. Thats their main food source.
> 
> Things they get during the week are
> 
> chicken gizzards
> chicken livers (ugh they smell like egg its SO hard for me to open the container on liver night)
> Beef heart
> beef liver.
> 
> I was giving fish oil pills twice a week but Kody ate the whole bottle last week so I have to go get more.
> 
> Once a week they each get a raw egg.
> 
> For thos more experienced than me, PLEASE feel free to tweak my menu.. I am trying to hard to get a good balance, but I dont feel like I am giving enough variety.
> 
> Oh they also get vegetables tossed to them here and there.. when I am cooking.


How about some beef. That is pretty easy meat source to get.


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## JohnnyBandit

This is the diet I am using.....

For meat I am feeding raw chicken parts. Backs, necks, wings, leg quarters, gizzards and hearts. I am also feeding some turkey necks, and a little lamb and beef. Chunked up, venison, and a little lamb, 

3 packages of the pre washed collards at Publix
2 Zucini squashes
a package of mixed broccoli and cauliflower

2 apples cores and seeds removed. 
4 sweet potatoes
two big handfuls of green beans
1.5 cups of water
1/3 cup safflower oil
1/3 cup of ground flax seed
1.44 pounds of beef liver 

The dogs are getting about 6 ounces of this mix a day. I am feeding about 2 percent of body weight in raw meat and meaty bones. I am also feeding some fish. Mostly in the form of good quality canned sardines in spring water. They are getting a raw egg a couple times a week and some plain yogart a couple times a week.


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## Shaina

This isn't set it stone, but a good general outline. They get fed morning and night...Webster at 24 lbs gets 0.6oz/day, Kim at 52 lbs gets just over 1lb/day. I expect hers will go up over the next few months as she is finally 18 months and has started to do more intensive activities.

Anyway

Sunday: Whole Chicken Portions || Liver or Ground Beef (alternate each week)
Monday: Whole Chicken Portions || Ground Beef, Pureed Egg, Organ/Veggie Cubes*
Tuesday: Whole Turkey Portions || Pork Muscle Meat, Fish Oil Capsules, O/V cubes
Wednesday: Whole Chicken Portions || Tripe, Oatmeal
Thursday: Whole Chicken Portions || Whole Gutted Fish (catfish, tilapia, or mackerel seem to be the easiest to get for me)
Friday: Whole Chicken Portions || Beef Heart, Fish Oil Capsules
Saturday: Whole Turkey Portions || Ox Tail, O/V Cubes

Each night they get each get 500mg of Vitamin C. This is an OD for Web, but it's as the excess is just flushed out, it's no biggie.

Again, this is just a basic skeleton, to give you a good idea what they get in a week. Also randomly getting mixed in or used for treats: various veggie bits, pack pumpkin, yogurt, a little brown or enriched white rice (whenever we have stirfry for dinner...), small bits of fruit, ACV, no-sugar applesauce...I'm probably forgetting stuff, but am hoping to add in other protein sources if I can find a remotely affordable source. Random "treat" meats they have had so far are rabbit and deer.

*Organ/Veggie cubes are basically me getting a bunch of organ (beef kidney, chicken gizzard, chicken liver, chicken kidney, etc...anything I've already tested for reactions) and a bunch of veggies (cucumber, zucchini, squash, green beans, etc.) and pureeing it all together, freezing it in ice trays, and storing it all in layers in a huge tupperware-type container in the freezer...probably did about 5 months-worth in one evening. Cubes are about 1 oz/cube, so it makes for easy portioning. Organ:Veggie Ratio is around 90:10 by weight.


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## NocturneWolf

I've been feeding raw to my 9 year old Shepherd/Dobe mix since he was 8 months old. The diet is usually changing and being tweaked but this is what I am currently feeding:

- Lamb ribs 
- Beef liver (fed with a bony meal, as a supplement)
- Chicken quarters 
-Turkey; rotate necks, thighs & legs. I get the already cut up legs & trim off all the meat so this is a muscle meat meal. 
- Ground beef or pork
- Chicken hearts (like the liver this is usually fed with a bony meal)
- Egg yolks (2-3x week)

Those are the basic parts that are always on the menu at least once weekly. On occasion I will feed goat meat, venison, lamb necks, beef kidney, chicken gizzards, tripe, beef trachea & pure beef/pork fat (from Prey 4 Pets). 

For supplements and extras I give fish oil, liquid vitamins, brewer's yeast. I do not feed a meat only diet so I rotate between sweet potatoes, brown rice or oats and these are given at least twice a week. I also feed honey once in a while, and lightly cooked veggies as treats only, and occasional leftovers.



4dogs3cats said:


> For thos more experienced than me, PLEASE feel free to tweak my menu.. I am trying to hard to get a good balance, but I dont feel like I am giving enough variety.
> 
> Oh they also get vegetables tossed to them here and there.. when I am cooking.



Can you get fatty hamburger? Red meat is really the best thing for dogs, very high in iron, zinc, b-complex vitamins, complete amino acids, and calorie dense. It's more expensive per lb. than chicken but you feed less beef to sustain. I give fish oil for the joints but when I fed a lot of chicken I needed to supplement with a ton of fish or flax oil! The coat was never as good. The past few years red meats have been the staple of the muscle meat portion of the diet, Shadow's coat is better @ 9yrs than it was when he was 2! Beef, lamb, pork are all fattier and healthier than too much chicken. You don't really have to give variety as much as you need to give foods that are covering their nutritional requirements.


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## RawFedDogs

I have no set menu. The one thing that is set is a chicken back in the morning. Thats it. Nothing else in the morning. The evening meal could be any of the following:

Chicken quarters
turkey necks or wings
pork roast or slab of ribs
beef heart
beef liver
Occasional beef roast or ground beef
Occasional other organs
fish, either whole raw or canned
raw eggs
venison when I can get it
left over meats from the human's meals if there is any
Any other meats I can pick up on freecycle or other free sources

Chicken drumsticks or wings for the cats along with the other meats the dogs eat.

No veggies, grains, or fruits ... the only supplement is glucosamine for my 8 year old Dane.


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## 4dogs3cats

Spicy1_VV said:


> How about some beef. That is pretty easy meat source to get.


Would I feed the same weight as I do chicken if it has no bones? They need bones every day right? How mnay times a week should I do beef?

Ground beef is very cheap and easy to come by. Can they have chicken and beef in the same meal?

sorry for all the questions but I have been wanting to start adding in beef for a while.


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## Spicy1_VV

4dogs3cats said:


> Would I feed the same weight as I do chicken if it has no bones? They need bones every day right? How mnay times a week should I do beef?
> 
> Ground beef is very cheap and easy to come by. Can they have chicken and beef in the same meal?
> 
> sorry for all the questions but I have been wanting to start adding in beef for a while.


You should feed about the same amount. Some dogs eat less because it is typically higher in fat vs chicken. They don't need bones every day but I pretty much like to feed bones everyday. You could add bones if you want. You could also use some egg shell too if you want to keep calcium to phosphorus levels balanced each meal. It is up to you. You can feed it as much as you like, in the big scheme of things beef is really a better meat for dogs. But its up to you. 3xs a week, 5xs a week. Whatever works out. Yeah they can have multi meat sources in the same meal. You can mix it with your chicken and turkey. I mix it with chicken to a couple of mine frequently. I give them straight beef but when I feed chicken to those dogs I also give them ground beef with it.


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## RawFedDogs

4dogs3cats said:


> Would I feed the same weight as I do chicken if it has no bones?


Yes



> They need bones every day right?


No, absolutely not. Most people, including myself, tend to feed much more bone than is needed. If you are feeding chicken 3 or 4 times a week, you are feeding more than enough bone.



> How mnay times a week should I do beef?


It's up to you. A couple of times a week would be good. More if you wish.



> Ground beef is very cheap and easy to come by. Can they have chicken and beef in the same meal?


They could but I usually don't. You are already feeding beef heart. It's pretty easy to add a few cubes of that to a chicken or turkey meal. You can feed a meal of beef heart too if you wish. Beef heart is probably the best of the cow meat you can feed. Remember, for our purposes, heart is not an organ but a muscle.


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## Boleyn

RE: the ground beef - what % (ie, 73%, 80% lean) is best for active, healthy weight dogs?


My 'menu':

Morning meal is chicken (usually) RMB's; canned salmon once or twice a week

Evening meal is muscle meat (turkey, beef, pork, etc), organs (liver usually), with a bit of goat milk kefir and a _small _amount of veggies. They get tripe once a week or so, and heart. 

Supplements are apple cider vinegar, fish or coconut oil, and glucosamine for my senior. 


Finding a variety of meat is so hard around here!


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## 4dogs3cats

Spicy1_VV said:


> You should feed about the same amount. Some dogs eat less because it is typically higher in fat vs chicken. They don't need bones every day but I pretty much like to feed bones everyday. You could add bones if you want. You could also use some egg shell too if you want to keep calcium to phosphorus levels balanced each meal. It is up to you. You can feed it as much as you like, in the big scheme of things beef is really a better meat for dogs. But its up to you. 3xs a week, 5xs a week. Whatever works out. Yeah they can have multi meat sources in the same meal. You can mix it with your chicken and turkey. I mix it with chicken to a couple of mine frequently. I give them straight beef but when I feed chicken to those dogs I also give them ground beef with it.


So if twice a week I feed them ground beef mixed in with a raw egg each I should be fine?



RawFedDogs said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> No, absolutely not. Most people, including myself, tend to feed much more bone than is needed. If you are feeding chicken 3 or 4 times a week, you are feeding more than enough bone.
> 
> 
> 
> It's up to you. A couple of times a week would be good. More if you wish.
> 
> 
> 
> They could but I usually don't. You are already feeding beef heart. It's pretty easy to add a few cubes of that to a chicken or turkey meal. You can feed a meal of beef heart too if you wish. Beef heart is probably the best of the cow meat you can feed. Remember, for our purposes, heart is not an organ but a muscle.


The dogs love the beef heart, its their favorite of all that I give them. Although the boys really like beef liver too. Bailey doesn't but she goes nuts for heart. I get 3 pounds for like... $3.50 so it's very feesible.

So if I switch it up to chicken 5 days a week and ground beef/add their raw egg into the beef meal 2 days a week and keep adding my organs (and muscle) as I am I should be good?


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## RawFedDogs

4dogs3cats said:


> So if I switch it up to chicken 5 days a week and ground beef/add their raw egg into the beef meal 2 days a week and keep adding my organs (and muscle) as I am I should be good?


If it were me, I'd add some pork once every week or two and some fish once every week or two just for a little more variety. The fish could be canned salmon or mackerel or something like that. They have valuable Omega 3's in them and your other stuff doesn't unless you are feeding grass fed beef.

However:
"_When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health._"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale Work Wonders Page 25


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## Spicy1_VV

4dogs3cats said:


> So if twice a week I feed them ground beef mixed in with a raw egg each I should be fine?


I don't see any problem with that.


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## 4dogs3cats

RawFedDogs said:


> If it were me, I'd add some pork once every week or two and some fish once every week or two just for a little more variety. The fish could be canned salmon or mackerel or something like that. They have valuable Omega 3's in them and your other stuff doesn't unless you are feeding grass fed beef.
> 
> However:
> "_When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health._"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale Work Wonders Page 25


Well I would rather do the fish oil pills. Neither me nor my fiancee are big fish people.. and maybe later on I'll be able to handle dead fish.. but not now. lol.



Spicy1_VV said:


> I don't see any problem with that.


Great! Thanks! I picked up a package of ground beef tonight at the grocery store, and another package of calf liver. What percent fat do you feed?


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## Spicy1_VV

4dogs3cats said:


> Great! Thanks! I picked up a package of ground beef tonight at the grocery store, and another package of calf liver. What percent fat do you feed?


The higher fat the better for my dogs. You will have to do what works right for yours. Last time I got the 73% lean.


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## 4dogs3cats

Spicy1_VV said:


> The higher fat the better for my dogs. You will have to do what works right for yours. Last time I got the 73% lean.


Okay cool I bought the 73% lean last night. A BIG package of it. I'll mix in a raw egg and just pretend I'm making meatloaf! lol.

The grocery store was out of beef heart though.. I don't know where else to find it, but its their favorite thing to eat... I'll keep hunting.


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## wyx

We feed once per day in the morning and fast our guys about once per week.

3-5x per week: 3 pounds of RMB for the 9 mo GSD (half a rack of ribs or half a largish frying chicken) and 1/2 pound for each Corgi.
1-2x per week 2 pounds liver, a pre-ground organ/tripe blend or muscle/organ blend for the GSD and 6oz for each Corgi
~2-3x per month something special to work on like trotters or beef gullet. 

On the RMB days they get a random bit of green tripe (tennis ball size wad for the GSD, golf ball wad for the Corgwyn), raw egg (2 for the GSD), leftover meat from our meals, homemade pickles and/or a splash of cod liver oil.


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## lizalots

What is RMB?


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## Curbside Prophet

RMB = Raw Meaty Bones


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

ok so here is us for the moment. what I feed depends on what I can get.


I recently found a tienda that sells fatty chicken backs for twenty cents a pound.

So that is the bone component of their meal.

I hooked up with some deer meat through a raw feeders list fifty dollar for eighty pounds of venison and then SO went hunting and bagged a buck so I have quite a bit of venison and deer organs at the moment.

each meal has been a chicken back plus a pile of venison cuts and a slice of deer heart or liver. When the backs run out they will get deer ribs. 

Question:

I have all the deer organs from the buck SO got. Is there anything I shouldn't feed?


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## RawFedDogs

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I have all the deer organs from the buck SO got. Is there anything I shouldn't feed?


Bladder and intestines ... everything else is good to go including the head.

*EDITED TO ADD:* Congratulations on the deer stuff. If I could only feed one meat OR if I could get enough of it, venison would be 100% of the diet.


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## Stitch

I would love to start Chewie on a raw diet (right now I just mix Bil Jac with Iams), but it sounds so expensive. Does anyone mind revealing the weekly price tag on such a diet? I just wanna know if raw feeding is out of my price range.


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## RawFedDogs

Stitch said:


> I would love to start Chewie on a raw diet (right now I just mix Bil Jac with Iams), but it sounds so expensive. Does anyone mind revealing the weekly price tag on such a diet? I just wanna know if raw feeding is out of my price range.


The cost of feeding raw varies greatly depending on what you feed and where you live. The longer you feed raw, the cheaper it gets because over time you find new sources and you learn how to buy. I feed raw to 2 Great Danes and 2 cats. It costs around $70/month. I have been doing this for 6 years so i have sources pretty well lined up and I know where and how to buy.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Stitch said:


> I would love to start Chewie on a raw diet (right now I just mix Bil Jac with Iams), but it sounds so expensive. Does anyone mind revealing the weekly price tag on such a diet? I just wanna know if raw feeding is out of my price range.


you kind of have to be a coupon wielding bargain warrior to get the best prices. 

Through a raw feeders list and a big big sale at the grocery I spent sixty dollars on more than a month's worth of food. and got another monthplus worth of food for free when SO went hunting. 

Raw feeders lists are proving invaluable at keeping my dog food budget low and their menu varied. through the list I met a young man who is a regular hunter and will call the list whenever he has extra venison. 

So how cheap it is depends on your area and how much effort are you willing to put into it.


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## Stitch

Cool thanks RFD and zimandtakandgrrandmimi. Now I have a second question (or 2) which is; is it necessary to switch the menu from day to day? Or can I stick with one entree (i.e. chicken in the morning and ground beef at night)? And what are the benefits of switching up their diet?


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## RawFedDogs

Stitch said:


> is it necessary to switch the menu from day to day? Or can I stick with one entree (i.e. chicken in the morning and ground beef at night)?


There are 2 answers to that question. In the beginning you want to stick with one protein source for about 2 weeks and then add a new protein source a week for a few weeks. This is to help the dog's body adjust to digesting real food.



> And what are the benefits of switching up their diet?


Different meats have nutrients in different concentrations. I don't know if it will affect the health of your dog just to feed chicken and ground beef. Probably not. However it is recommended by most every knowledgeable raw feeder I know to feed a variety of meat, bones, and organs. You definately want to feed some organs in any raw diet. There are nutrients in them just don't get enough of in meat and bones.

*EDITED TO ADD:*However, on the other hand,
_"When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health."_
Dr. Tom Lonsdale "Work Wonders" Page 25


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

I would start with chicken. How big is your dog? 

basically you want to feed around two percent of your dog's body weight a day.

like my one dog is Forty eight pounds and gets a little less than a pound a day. my other dog is forty five pounds and gets right about the same amount..just a smidge less. 

And just call me Zim.

I switch whenever I have new food sources. I have deer and chicken right now...when that runs out it will probably be chicken and beef again until I find some more deer or some rabbit or bison or duck on sale

if you do decide to feed raw it is cheaper usually to buy in bulk. a chest type freezer would be a good investment. I got mine off craigslist for fifteen dollars.


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## Stitch

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I would start with chicken. How big is your dog?
> 
> basically you want to feed around two percent of your dog's body weight a day.
> 
> like my one dog is Forty eight pounds and gets a little less than a pound a day. my other dog is forty five pounds and gets right about the same amount..just a smidge less.
> 
> And just call me Zim.
> 
> I switch whenever I have new food sources. I have deer and chicken right now...when that runs out it will probably be chicken and beef again until I find some more deer or some rabbit or bison or duck on sale
> 
> if you do decide to feed raw it is cheaper usually to buy in bulk. a chest type freezer would be a good investment. I got mine off craigslist for fifteen dollars.


Chewie is around 55 to 60 lbs and he's a yr old english bulldog/black lab mix (if that helps). And $15 for a chest size freezer!!! What a deal! Needless to say I'm going to Craigslist when I'm done posting here.

Now back on track. Since he's in the 55 to 60 range I'm guessing a pound and a half of food a day. Does that sound about right?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Stitch said:


> Chewie is around 55 to 60 lbs and he's a yr old english bulldog/black lab mix (if that helps). And $15 for a chest size freezer!!! What a deal! Needless to say I'm going to Craigslist when I'm done posting here.
> 
> Now back on track. Since he's in the 55 to 60 range I'm guessing a pound and a half of food a day. Does that sound about right?


one point one to one point two pounds day is about right.

and yep fifteen bux...remember what I said about being a bargain warrior..my freezer was originally listed as fifty dollars but I talked her down to fifteen. 

I make a game of it. I challenge myself to find the very best deals and then beat that with better deals next shopping trip. 

Good places to check are ethnic markets(they will have more organ meats than regular grocery stores) farmer's markets and of course the raw feeders lists. I don't have the link on hand but Briteday gave me it...I will find it for you...

So start with chicken for a week or two and then add another meat source. and so on...


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## Kathyy

That would be feeding at nearly 3%, 2% would be about 18 ounces. 57x16x.02=18 ounces. I pay about $.70 a day for my dog's measly 10 ounces of food. Really I think I am spending not a whole lot more and I really trust human grade food more not to mention all the processing kibble goes through.


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## rosemaryninja

Stitch said:


> Now back on track. Since he's in the 55 to 60 range I'm guessing a pound and a half of food a day. Does that sound about right?


It sounds fine to start off with as an approximate amount. Amount should be the least of your worries. Your dog's build will tell you very quickly whether you are feeding too much or too little. Honestly, a lot of the "panic" issues people have about raw (what do I feed? how often? how much? how expensive? how to prepare?) are smaller than they seem  Do some research, then just take the first step. It all falls into place from there.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Kathyy said:


> That would be feeding at nearly 3%, 2% would be about 18 ounces. 57x16x.02=18 ounces. I pay about $.70 a day for my dog's measly 10 ounces of food. Really I think I am spending not a whole lot more and I really trust human grade food more not to mention all the processing kibble goes through.



your right...whoops..brain fart....sorry Stitch I have been a little off kilter lately...it has been a rough week...I just went back and re weighed what I portioned out when I got the stuff thinking I must have boobood there..no I boobood here....my girls get average sixteen ounces...


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## 4dogs3cats

Ok I revamped it.. tell me what you guys think,

7 days in a week..(good so far)

5 days a week they get chicken
2 days a week they get beef, every time they get beef it is 73% and it has a raw egg mixed in.
Once a week in their beef they get calf liver mixed in
3 days a week they get fish oil pills

Whenever I can find beef heart again I will give them this 2-3 times a week.


?


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## Agent 001.1

Hey guys sorry to be a newb.

I've started my new puppy on a raw diet, he's a Shepherd/Husky mix. Had him for about 3 days and have been switching to raw from the start. He's 7 weeks old.

I started off with char fish because of being rich in the omega supplements and he loved it after trying it, but i recently have read i should stick to one protien source for about 2 weeks. With that said i started feeding him small raw chicken legs, which he has taking to pretty well. 
i am going to make a stop to the butcher tomorrow and wanted to know if there were any recomendations on what i should buy to feed such a young dog, or any sketch weekly menus to aid me other than the ones posted, or is it prettty much the same for any age of dog. Thank you


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## 4dogs3cats

For the first two weeks or so you should stick to one source. Most choose chicken. When I switched my three dogs, I gave the 65 GSD 2 chicken quarters a day, I gave the 30lb beagle an 8oz chicken thigh a day, and the 25 pounds beagle who was overweight(shes meant to be smaller than the other beagle) a 4 oz. chicken drumstick a day.


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## inmommyheaven

I am trying to build up a supply and figure out exactly what to feed. I picked up some pork neck bones with meat on them. Is that okay? Also my neighbor said he would save me any waist muscle meat that they won't eat from the dear they get. . . for example the areas around where the bullet goes in. Is that okay? I wasn't sure since humans tend to not eat it. I also picked up some fryer chickens, chicken necks, and ground beef. I am going to start with the chicken necks and then work from there.


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## RawFedDogs

inmommyheaven said:


> I am trying to build up a supply and figure out exactly what to feed. I picked up some pork neck bones with meat on them. Is that okay?


All the pork neck bones I have seen are exactly that. Lotsa bone and little meat. I would feed some boneless meals just before or just after a meal of pork necks.



> Also my neighbor said he would save me any waist muscle meat that they won't eat from the dear they get. . . for example the areas around where the bullet goes in. Is that okay?


I't great. Anything from the dear except blatter and intestines is some of the best food you can feed. Even the head is great. 



> I also picked up some fryer chickens, chicken necks, and ground beef. I am going to start with the chicken necks and then work from there.


The fryers are great, necks only so-so depending on the size of your dog. Ground beef is good too. It would be good to feed with the pork necks or the meal before or after.

Checkout http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm. It will give you guidance on how to begin a raw diet. If you have questions after reading it, please ask. You need to feed chicken only for a couple of weeks. THen add something else, I suggest pork for a week, then somehting else the next week. Hopefully the page will explain it to you.


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## inmommyheaven

My local meat market can get me chicken necks and backs mixed for 79cents a pound or turkey necks for 89 cents a pound for 40 lbs. My dogs are both about 50 lbs. Do you suggest one or the other or neither. Would it be better sticking to whole fryers and quarters. I read so much about necks and backs being great when I started reading but now I am reading different things. Thanks for all your help. It has been wonderful.


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## RawFedDogs

inmommyheaven said:


> My local meat market can get me chicken necks and backs mixed for 79cents a pound or turkey necks for 89 cents a pound for 40 lbs. My dogs are both about 50 lbs. Do you suggest one or the other or neither. Would it be better sticking to whole fryers and quarters. I read so much about necks and backs being great when I started reading but now I am reading different things. Thanks for all your help. It has been wonderful.


Some places sell backs and necks still attached to each other. Those are good. Some places will habe backs and necks in the same box but seperated. The probem with chicken necks is that for dogs your size, they are much too small. They can be swallowed whole and become a choking hazzard. For my Great Danes, the swallow pieces much larger than a chicken neck regularly but they won't chew chicken necks. BTW: I pay 13.5 cents a pound for chicken backs.

Turkey necks would make a good size meal for your dogs. They would be good. I get m ine for anywhere between 50 and 80 cents a pound. The price varies greatly throughout the year.

Whole birds and quarters are also good for your dogs.

The only thing you are asking about that I don't like are chicken necks. If you have cats, you could feed the necks to them.


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## wrigleyroo

Okay before anyone starts this Raw food diet you need to research your dogs diet and nutrition to avoid health issues resulting from improper nutrition needs. Also speak to your vet to see what they recommend.

For Example Read this article on Golden Retriever Diets and Nutrition. : http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/GoldenRetriever.html


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## Canadian Dog

wrigleyroo said:


> Okay before anyone starts this Raw food diet you need to research your dogs diet and nutrition to avoid health issues resulting from improper nutrition needs. Also speak to your vet to see what they recommend.


That's what everyone is doing - that's the point of this and many other 'raw' threads. I like my vet - but he sells Medi-Cal and suggests I feed it to Molly. I've converted to raw and I'm going to start questioning my vet regarding all the chemicals being pumped into her with all the immunizations and deworming.

For Example Read this article on Golden Retriever Diets and Nutrition.

*Is this a sales pitch?*


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## wrigleyroo

Sales pitch? No. My friends website where you can see what is recommended to feed a certain breed. I am not trying to sell anything here...

What I am really trying to say that didn't come out very well in my last post is that majority dogs can handle certain foods, but there are high maintenance breeds out there that are sensitive to certain foods, proteins, etc. 

Like Labradors: It is recommended to not feed your lab Beef as it was not in its natural diet. 

My neighbor has a poodle and started feeding the same raw diet as her next door neighbor with a malamute and he got horrible skin issues because she wasn't adjusting the diet to her dogs certain food needs. 

So long story short I just want people to know that you should be careful when preparing the menu for your dog, don't just feed what everyone else is feeding.


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## JohnnyBandit

wrigleyroo said:


> Sales pitch? No. My friends website where you can see what is recommended to feed a certain breed. I am not trying to sell anything here...
> 
> What I am really trying to say that didn't come out very well in my last post is that majority dogs can handle certain foods, but there are high maintenance breeds out there that are sensitive to certain foods, proteins, etc.
> 
> Like Labradors: It is recommended to not feed your lab Beef as it was not in its natural diet.
> 
> My neighbor has a poodle and started feeding the same raw diet as her next door neighbor with a malamute and he got horrible skin issues because she wasn't adjusting the diet to her dogs certain food needs.
> 
> So long story short I just want people to know that you should be careful when preparing the menu for your dog, don't just feed what everyone else is feeding.



There is very little actual information on that website other than "your friend" peddling his book and diet plan......

BTW.. I feed my Lab beef a couple times a week and he looks GREAT.


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## RawFedDogs

wrigleyroo said:


> Okay before anyone starts this Raw food diet you need to research your dogs diet and nutrition to avoid health issues resulting from improper nutrition needs. Also speak to your vet to see what they recommend.


Ohhhhhhh, not Bill Cusick. Is he still pushing that silly breed specific diet garbage? And yes his page is nothing but an advertisement for his useless fictional book. You can't take anything he says seriously.

There is no breed specific dietary need. It's merely a ploy to sell books and of course his $100 recipes. LOL 

Bill also put out web pages that tried to scare people away from raw diets. He presented a number of "facts" that were all baseless fiction. For example, one of these "facts" was that dogs can't digest bones. I and many thousands of others have been feeding dogs bones every day for years. The bones didn't come out in their stools, so where did they go if they were not digsted? Are they still in the dogs? The dogs would have to be as big as a full size car or bigger if they are still in there. 

THis is not a person who should be listened to. Oh and there are probably not 10 vets in the country who can give good dietary advice about dogs.


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## Canadian Dog

wrigleyroo said:


> Sales pitch? No. My friends website where you can see what is recommended to feed a certain breed. I am not trying to sell anything here...
> 
> What I am really trying to say that didn't come out very well in my last post is that majority dogs can handle certain foods, but there are high maintenance breeds out there that are sensitive to certain foods, proteins, etc.
> 
> Like Labradors: It is recommended to not feed your lab Beef as it was not in its natural diet.
> 
> My neighbor has a poodle and started feeding the same raw diet as her next door neighbor with a malamute and he got horrible skin issues because she wasn't adjusting the diet to her dogs certain food needs.
> 
> So long story short I just want people to know that you should be careful when preparing the menu for your dog, don't just feed what everyone else is feeding.


What are mutts supposed to eat?


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## JohnnyBandit

Canadian Dog said:


> What are mutts supposed to eat?


I bet his friend will sell you a diet specifically designed with mutts in mind for a mere 100 bucks.


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## wrigleyroo

okay guys.. enough I made a mistake by posting something that was stupid so please stop feeding me to the wolves. I apologize and take back what I posted. IGNORE IT. 
Just please stop. I am sorry for posting false information. I am new to the raw diet and my friend referred the site and honestly I didn't read the whole thing I just looked at the suggestions. MY BAD... I AM SORRY JUST DROP IT. 

Thank you.


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## Canadian Dog

Hey no harm done. Welcome to the forum. I just started feeding raw a couple of weeks ago after months of reading the info provided on the forum. Lots of good people who want to make sure the info is correct and therefor are quick to respond when they see inaccurate info being spread. Nothing personal. We all make mistakes - you realized it and corrected - that says a lot about you in my opinion. Stick around.


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## wrigleyroo

Thank you C.D That makes me feel better about my error.


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## steelhorse

I feed my masstiff pup this a couple times a week


Beef and Rice Moochies


This is a nutritious treat for your puppy.

Ingredients

2 jars of Gerber beef and vegetable baby food 

5 cups flour, all-purpose 

2-cups whole-wheat flour 

2-cups rice 

2 packages unflavored gelatin 

2 whole eggs 

4 tablespoons vegetable oil 

2 cups powdered milk 

2-packages yeast 

1/2 cup warm water 

2 beef bouillon cube 

Recipe

Dissolve yeast in warm water. 

Combine all dry ingredients in large bowl. 

Add yeast, egg, oil, baby food and dissolved beef bouillon. 

Mix well. 

Mixture will be very dry, knead with hands until it forms a ball. Roll out on floured surface to 1/4 inch thickness. 

Use cookie cutters to cut shapes. 

Bake on non-greased cookie sheet 30 minutes at 300 degrees.


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## ARBecky

I use the recipes from Dr. Pitcairn's book, (NOT a plug, just recommended to me by by clinical nutritionist, who uses it for his two collies)
SO much easier than trying to figure out how much of this/that. Right now, my four schnauzers are enjoying a dog loaf made of ground chuck, boneless beef, milk, eggs, veggies (zucchini, yellow summer squash and carrots were on hand), whole wheat bread, soy sauce
and supplements (calcium, vitamin E, and healthy powder).
We use the healthy powder supplement, also from his book, which has brewer's yeast, lecithin, kelp and other things I can't remember right now.
It takes a bit of time once a week to make up this concoction, but is well worth it.
They also get beef liver when I can find it, usually from a butcher/meat packer, which goes into their daily food, and chicken wings, & other bones.
Nothing cooked!
Two of our dogs are older, 10 & 12, and were fed commercial dog food until a few months ago, when we got the two pups. The older ones have lost quite a few teeth. We find that they can handle chicken wings best, or backs, but all of them love the big beef rib and knuckle bones. They get these bony treats 2 or 3 times a week.


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## Anandel

we're having some difficulties in sourcing here in the US---we were able to buy raw food for the dogs in pet stores in the UK, but its not so easy here! this is what we're feeding at the moment:

our 13y old with chronic kidney failure gets 3 parts veggies/fruit (anything on the clearance table really) to one part protein plus chicken necks 1-3 times a week; he has been raw fed for 8 years

our younger girl gets exclusively RMB and meat/fish; she has been raw fed since 8 weeks old

--chicken gizzards
--chicken necks
--canned sardines
--eggs
--ground turkey
--ground beef
--'kennel mix' from our local butcher: a very rich mix of a variety of meats and organs, off-cuts from the primary cuts of meat...can't give them much of this because it gives them the runs


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## BoxMeIn21

Anandel said:


> we're having some difficulties in sourcing here in the US---we were able to buy raw food for the dogs in pet stores in the UK, but its not so easy here! this is what we're feeding at the moment:


Where are you looking for your food? Have you checked out Yahoo's raw feeding groups as well as their carnivore feed supplier list?


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## Anandel

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Where are you looking for your food? Have you checked out Yahoo's raw feeding groups as well as their carnivore feed supplier list?


i confess i haven't checked them out yet (since we moved from the UK i've been dealing with alot of health problems)...mostly we've tried places near home (grocery stores, butchers, pet stores)

do you have any links or any in particular i should look for?


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## BoxMeIn21

Anandel said:


> i confess i haven't checked them out yet (since we moved from the UK i've been dealing with alot of health problems)...mostly we've tried places near home (grocery stores, butchers, pet stores)
> 
> do you have any links or any in particular i should look for?


Here you go:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/carnivorefeed-supplier/

There is a database full of raw food supplier throughout the US.

And here's another good raw feeding resource:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/?yguid=274985796


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## Anandel

thanks very much for the info! my memberships are pending


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## briteday

Here's a lonk that has some food co-op sources if you scroll down...and lots of other good info:

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#co-ops


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## Great Dane

This is our menu as of right now and I must give a shout out to RawFedDogs for converting me over to this diet just from reading his posts and the links he has supplied previously to others.

Boots has been on this menu (Started out with just Chicken) for about 5 weeks now and she's doing amazing. I'd never go back to kibble now.

To also add, she never had any digestive issues. Her stools have remained constant with organs having been on the menu for 2 weeks now.

Monday AM - A whole Chicken Back (Sometimes Turkey with ground bone)
Monday PM - Venison/Beef/Buffalo/Duck

Tuesday AM - A whole Chicken Back
Tuesday PM - Venison/Beef/Buffalo/Duck

Wednesday AM - A whole Chicken Back (Sometimes Turkey with ground bone)
Wednesday PM - Venison along with Beef Liver, Beef Heart, Chicken Gizzards, Kidney

Thursday AM - A whole Chicken Back
Thursday PM - Venison/Beef/Buffalo/Duck

Friday AM - A whole Chicken Back (Sometimes Turkey with ground bone)
Friday PM - Venison/Beef/Buffalo/Duck

Saturday AM - A whole Chicken Back
Saturday PM - 2 Cans of raw Salmon, 1 can of Green Tripe, Beef Liver, Beef Heart

Sunday AM - A whole Chicken Back
Sunday PM - Venison/Beef/Buffalo/Duck


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## myminpins

We obtain our meat from Totally Raw Dog Food locally. They now produce whole critters ground up - beef, lamb, chicken, pork, etc. We purchase great quantities of this whole ground meat then add in a variety of veggies and some eggs, mix it all up in our laundry sink and put it in containers. Then we freeze it and portion it out daily.

With two min pins, they don't eat much - one a bit under a tablespoon twice a day, one a bit more than a tablespoon twice a day but that's going up very quicky with Titan here.

They all get a chicken wing every day and fish oil at least once a week. They get a kelp mixture here and there as well. 

It's not a huge variety but it works well for us. I'd love to feed tripe but I just cannot tolerate the smell - and it smells up the entire freezer. Ugh. 

The reason they are not fed whole food as opposed to ground food is it's too hard to ensure they get a proper balance of bone and meat, etc., when feeding such small quantities. We tried that for awhile but it wasn't practical. 

They also get a recreational bone once or twice a week as well that lasts for a few days.


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## jesirose

Our menu varies so greatly from week to week! She gets a ton of different things, I like to buy from prey4pets to get some of this more exotic stuff. On the weeks my paycheck is a bit low, I use grocery store meat 

Exotic Menu: beef heart, tongue. whole chicks feathers and all (sadie goes NUTS over these), chicken backs and necks, 2 lb whole rabbit over a few days with organs. Quail. turkey drumsticks. Lots of random rmbs from various animals.

Grocery Week: chicken breast, drumsticks, wings, feet, liver. Turkey neck. Duck Leg. Cornish game hen, Pork, beef. Tonight I actually found pig's feet - but she seems to be uninterested in these, we might not get them again.

ETA: The cats mostly get turkey breast, wing, drumsticks and frozen mice/rats. They also like pork and beef.


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## 3dogmom26

I feed all 3 of my dogs for free....  (except for the occasional chicken leg quarters that I get at SuperWalmart for VERY cheap).

Anyways, I feed a whole prey model diet and my dogs do GREAT on it. I believe dogs are carnivores so I feed them accordingly. I don't measure anything anymore so it's all approximate. They get aprx 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ.

They eat twice a day. Usually they get bone every other day, sometimes less. Their boneless meal which consists of either beef, pork, boneless chicken, boneless turkey, rabbit, and TONS of venison. Their bone-in meals consists of things such as chicken leg quarters, rabbit, pork ribs, turkey, etc. I sometimes give them fish oil pills but lately they haven't gotten any because they are eating a lot of venison lately and wild game eats enough grass in their diet that the dogs are getting enough Omega 3's from that already. 

My female boxer weighs aprx 72 pounds and she eat aprx 1.75 pounds of food per day. My male boxer weighs aprx 66 pounds (and still growing) and eats aprx 2 pounds per day.....though that might get upped soon because he's looking too skinny). My male pitbull weighs aprx 58 pounds and eats aprx 1.75 pounds per day.


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## jagator31

Could everyone post their dogs weight and how much of each they feed? That would be very helpful to someone just getting started like me...LOL


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## briteday

Rule of thumb for raw feediing...

2-5% of correct body weight for your dog, daily, preferably divided into two meals.
Puppies can consume up to 10% of their current body weight, watch for weight gains/losses and ask vet to assess at regular visits

60 pound young adult / older pup...I'd start out around 4% and adjust from there...so...

60 pounds x 16 = 960 ounces
960 ounces x 0.04 (4%) = 38.4 ounces per day (preferably divide into two meals)
(32 ounces would be 2 pounds so I owuld feed about 1-1/4 pounds per meal x 2 daily)

or

60 pounds x 0.04 (4%) = 2.4 pounds daily or 1.2 pounds per meal x2 daily

I tend to do it in ounces because I have toy breeds and they only get a few ounces per day. Hopefully showing the calculation both ways will help everyone.


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## Kathyy

This is what Max is getting this month. 

Brought home 1 pound pork liver, 1 pound pork kidney, 9 pounds pork shoulder, 1.6 pounds chicken feet, 1 pounds chicken gizzards, 8 pounds chicken thighs, 1.7 pounds Indian Mackerel.

#1 Chicken thigh+pork liver OR pork kidney 
#2 chicken foot+Indian mackerel [small oily fish]+chicken gizzards OR pork shoulder+pork liver OR pork kidney
#3 meaty pork shoulder bone+pork liver OR pork kidney.

He gets 10 ounce meals fed once a day. The cost was $23 for the month. I never find chicken feet or gizzards for $1.10 a pound so had to use them.

Still obsessed with daily balancing of meals. Was brave enough to fit raw fish into the diet finally! It really works better for my tiny freezer to make up the baggies and feed this way. The 30 meals fit in about 1/2 one freezer shelf. The big bone days are great once a week so I can give the cooked food dog a chew bone so both dogs are busy at the same time. Maybe 1/4 of the meals are packed light so I can add a bit of the ripe steak I found for $1.60 or a whole raw egg. Last month I also would put some fish in those light meals.

Part of my fear of fish is the cost. Finally accepted that it is like organ. It may cost more per pound but it is a smaller part of the diet. Not positive I figured it correctly but am thinking 2 ounces of this oily fish are all the omega 3 he needs per day. He loves it so far, tail and all.


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## phoebespeople

Phoebe is about 50 lbs and 10 months old, so she gets about 12 oz. twice a day. When she's a year old it will go down to 8 oz. twice a day. 

Monday am: Buddies Butcher Block (ground beef/chicken backs/bone meal/veggie mix) with kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil.
Monday pm: Whole chicken back and neck. Beef Marrow bone.
Tuesday am: Bucther Block with kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil and and egg yolk.
Tuesday pm: Ground beef and organ mix.
Wednesday am: Butcher Block with kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil.
Wednesday pm: Ground turkey and organ blend. Beef marrow bone.
Thursday am: Bucther Block with kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil and and egg yolk.
Thursday pm: Ground lamb and organ blend.
Friday am: Bucther Block with kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil.
Friday pm: Ground duck. Beef marrow bone.
Saturday am: Bucther Block with kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil and and egg yolk.
Saturday pm: Turkey necks.
Sunday am: Bucther Block with kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil.
Sunday pm: Green lamb tripe, smelly!

It varies quite a bit, but this is an approxomate average week. I'm going to be adding whole turkey quarters, chicken quarters, whole pork neck bones, whole beef hearts, and whole chicken and turkey organs, and take away the prepared ground blends.


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## daveduz

i just wanted to put my meal on here for my dog to see what everyone thought about it if i was possible missing something beneficial for my dog. basically he just gets a turkey neck in the morning and ground chicken backs with puree spinach, carrots, and a little apple with 3 squirts of grizzly salmon oil. have been on raw for about 3 to 4 weeks now. my dog started to shy away from an organ mixture from my butcher so i went to just straight chicken and turkey. any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## briteday

You can't do without the organs so you have to find a way that your dog will accept them. Some dogs will eat the organs if they are little frozen chunks, especially liver. And you should be always including liver as one of your organs since it provides incredible amounts of vitamins A & D. Heart meat is good for the amino acid taurine. Vets are finding that dogs are suffering from the same problems that was discovered in cats a while back, when deficient in taurine. It can lead to heart problems and blindness. So taurine is important. Chicken backs and necks are way too much bone and not enough meat, unbalanced calcium : phosphorus ratio.


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## RuckSack

I see that many of you feed chicken bones to your dogs. I've read from multiple sources this week that chicken bone tends to splinter and can shred the esophagus of your dog. Is this true? It can't be too dangerous if you do it a few times a week.


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## rosemaryninja

^ Cooked bones splinter; raw bones don't. Never feed your dog cooked bones.


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## Kathyy

Max tried to swallow his chicken back whole today. After getting it back up to his teeth he chomped it up better and swallowed. No throat shredding.

This month his menu included beef tongue, heart, kidney and liver, Indian Mackerel and sardines with chicken bony cuts like that back, neck and wings and beef green tripe. A meal consisted of 2-4 ounces of bony chicken or 1/2 mackerel or whole sardine, 5-6 ounces of beef heart or tongue and 1 ounce of beef liver or kidney. Then 1 ounce of green tripe for dessert.


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## shortstack

Okay - bear with me and please tweak..

I am only on week 2 so I'm still just feeding chicken parts as of right now
AM - is *chicken necks *
- which im hoping to change to *backs* or something a little larger.. now that they are getting used to them. they don't chew them as well

PM - some form of chicken and bone at the moment I alternate between *thighs*, *breasts *(quartered or split) and *drumsticks*. I'm hoping my wholesaler will have better prices on *whole chickens *for me soon so I can get those and quarter them up so they get everything they need.. plus the drumsticks are a little scary since they both have this burning desire to swallow them.. not to chew them... I also just bought *pork shoulder *and was going to introduce that as the next protein

BUT once they get a bit more established

I plan to offer 
AM Chicken back/neck 3 times per week
AM turkey neck 2 time per week
then what ever is on sale..

PM: Chicken/ turkey parts 3 times per week
PM: Beef or bison rib rack with extra meat 1 per week 
PM: pork shoulder or rib rack, etc 1 per week
PM: Duck or Rabbit 1 per week (have to look into prices a hair more)
PM: fish mackerel or any fish but salmon (that is the only one to really avoid right?) 1 time per week

I plan to offer raw egg once per week and vary which animal organs I use per week at the moment I got the gizzard and such mix from a chicken.. I will introduce that with a meaty meal in a small portion later this week.

Chicken and Pork are so far the cheapest meats in my area costing .89 - .98 per lb. the beef rack I found for 1.59 plb.... But I am going to work with a restaurant wholesaler and see if the butcher I stopped by the other night has better deals. I will be feeding more of the cheaper cuts primarily until I get all my sources figured out!

Feel free to tweak and educate me as you see necessary


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## DobManiac

Just a couple of thinks Shortstack. I haven't been feeding raw long, but it looks too me that your menu is way to bone heavy. Chicken backs and necks are around 40-50% bone. Turkey necks are as well. And your adding more bone in your PM meals. This is going to make your dogs very constipated. I'm guessing you will average 35% bone a week, and it needs to around 10-15%. 

Keep in mind that even canned salmon, sardines, and mackerel have bones. I would add in some pure muscle meat meals. The gizzards could be used as a boneless meal sense they are considered a muscle meat not a organ. You can also use heart, beef brisket, groung beef, ground turkey, ground pork, and pork shoulder. I have even heard of people buying turkey legs and removing the meat from the bone for a muscle meal.


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## shortstack

thanks dob - i have been re evaluating that original menu.. as the bone content is way heavy.. i now use mostly whole chickens cut into meals, and then will add split breast meats.. I plan to get more drum sticks and cut the meat off to add meat, and use gizzards.. 

Pork shoulder wont have bone... thank you for all the suggestions and I am actually getting more meat to serve with the bone in meals tomorrow!!!

so now it will be 
whole chickens with added meat - 3 times a week
pork shoulder (no bone) once per week
beef heart once per week(perhaps ribs the next... not sure yet.. or some other beef cut)
misc meat (rabbit duck...) 1 per week
fish once per week

does that sound more meaty than the last menu?


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## Kathyy

Nicely meaty. Add in your organ meat when it is a bone day !Gizzards are good stuff, my dogs love them.

Some pork shoulder has the actual shoulder blade. They are edible for my dog. He won't eat the leg bone though. If you have the room cut and use about half the meat of those pork roasts now and put the bone part back in the freezer. Then you will have nice large long lasting semi gorge meals for later when your dogs are doing well on a daily meal.

ANY cheap beef is fine. I prefer boneless to bone in and lean to fatty and chewy to tender. I like the way he chews up beef shank, tongue and heart to the more tender chuck and sirloin.


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## shortstack

thanks SOO much Kathyy! i need to locate some beef tongue


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## FourIsCompany

Kathyy said:


> Add in your organ meat when it is a bone day


Can you tell me what you mean by "bone day"? I assume you don't give bones every day? How often, then?


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## DobManiac

FourIsCompany said:


> Can you tell me what you mean by "bone day"? I assume you don't give bones every day? How often, then?


Everyone does it differently. I feed bones every morning with some muscle meat, egg, or organs added. Then they get all muscle meat in the evening. Some people will only feed food once a day and completely balance every meal 80-10-10. 

Some will balance out the ratio over a week or even three weeks changing from meat days to bone days. They stock up their freezer with 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. Once the freezer is empty the dog has been balanced over a long period of time. It all depends on what makes the most sense to you and seems the simplest.


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## ioreks_mom

this is my weekly menu for iorek right now. it will change when we move next week and can't order from the raw food company anymore. then we will be adding moose and rabbit (hopefully) and maybe a different fish source.

right now we are feeding:

sunday: pork neck bone + 1/2 lb of organ mix
monday: chicken necks or backs
tuesday: ground beef meal - balanced with meat, bone, and organ
wednesday: meaty lamb bones
thursday: ground chicken meal - balanced as above
friday: fresh atlantic mackerel 
saturday: chicken necks or backs

i know it seems pretty bony but it works out well for iorek. too much more meat and he gets runny poops.


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## Kathyy

Wow that is a lot of bone! Guess you can work on switching some bone for meat as he gets better at this.

I am trying to quit the daily bone so Max can have more fun with larger bones less often. This isn't something that should be done with a new to raw dog not used to getting meals that vary daily. Max has been raw fed for over a year now and I am just now getting brave enough. My next dog will be doing this but it could take six months or so to work up to it. As in daily he can have one small pork rib or 1/2 chicken back, every other day he could have 2 ribs or a whole back. That daily chicken leg or wing is far too much bone for him, every other day would be much better. It means I would be feeding a more appropriate amount of bone. Then I will feed the rich organ that can cause the squirts with the bone leaving plain meat and the less bony fish for the other days of the week.

Before I got my freezer this would have been difficult as I packed little daily meals and would have preferred to alternate bony meals with meaty meals. All those packets look the same frozen so I never dared.

This week the menu included beef heart, pork ribs, whole sardine and beef liver. Introducing lamb tripe a bit a day at the end of the week.
Tuesday pork rib+liver+heart [100% bone req]
Wednesday heart+sardine+egg [25%BR]
Thursday 2 pork rib+heart+liver[200%BR]
Friday heart+sardine[25%BR]
Saturday heart+tripe[0%BR]
Sunday 2 pork rib+heart[200%BR]
Looks like I did fine, 550% for 6 days instead of 600% but tomorrow will be the end of the ribs and heart as they are getting stinky! So I will end the week with a bit too much bone. Oh well, a work in progress. 

Next week is that rib and heart left over from this week, plus tripe and liver. I found some kidney so I can feed a couple small chunks of that next week. And on a weekly basis he needs 7 ounces of sardines not 5. This is still way too fussy! Give me another year, maybe I will be tossing out hunks of meat nilly-willy the way old timers do.

He is enjoying the big heart hunks rather than the 3-5 ounce bits he got in a daily balanced meal. He is taking about 5 minutes to eat the rib meals instead of 2 minutes in a daily balanced meal so I am happy with that part of it. Now to find all the poops. He tends to hide them and they are tiny if he is doing well.


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## xclusiv

DobManiac said:


> Everyone does it differently. I feed bones every morning with some muscle meat, egg, or organs added. Then they get all muscle meat in the evening. Some people will only feed food once a day and completely balance every meal 80-10-10.


We follow this pattern as well. Mornings consist of ground tripe with 1 of either beef hearts, goat tongues, fish, or whatever other non-bone meat we are having that day, as well as their liver, sometimes lung or spleen. The boys eat tripe every day here - they love it and do very well on it.
Evening meals are bones - turkey necks, pork riblets/neckbones/breastbones. The big boys get whole chickens as well but the little guy has chicken allergies so his bone meals are pretty restricted.


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## AmStaffsMum

I feed one meal/ day in the mornings. I do not feed any veggies or grains, only meat, bones, organs and eggs.

I go for a balanced meal each day, but do skip organs and eggs now and again.

bones usually come from chicken legs/thighs/wings or pork neck bones (just be careful they aren't too sharp!) occasionally we'll do venison rib cage too. 

muscle meat is either beef, venison, or pork

I do whole eggs most days, only one of my dogs won't eat the shell.

organ meat I try to vary alot....kidney, liver, spleen, gizzards I'll usually rotate these. 

Everyone gets a fish oil capsule daily as well, and then their meal is topped off with a couple of tablespoons of kefir

Once in awhile I do whole fish....when my coworkers give me extra fish from their fishing expenditions....the dogs love it, but it's definitely a seasonal menu item....they have to eat the fish outside!!! Way too smelly to feed inside during the winter!


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## MikeSlough

I don't always feed every dog exactly the samething at the same time. It depends what I have (or what stores I can get too, some that are a bit of a drive have different meat sources or cheaper prices), what each dog is doing at the time, what they need, their age, ect.

Here are just some of my meal plans and various foods I feed. They can (and do for me) change/vary as you can feed one thing with another or change it up as you see fit. As long as you keep within correct ratios, varied sources and proper nutrition.

Chicken Quarter/Beef Liver
Beef Brisket/Chick bone/Lamb Liver
Ground Beef/chick bone
Ground Turkey/chick bone
Chicken Quarter/Ground Beef/beef heart
Deer/Antelope roast
Rabbit meat/organs
Turkey meat/organs
Duck meat/organs

Chicken breast, wings, feet, organs (backs on occasion, mostly to a couple specific dogs)
Caned mackerel or salmon
Steak trimming - the fat and small amount the meat
Salmon fillet I buy the big ones and cut them myself
Mutton can't get it close but wish we could
Goat rare occasion

Eggs 1-2 times per week
Ground egg shells


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## sassykzt

I've been feeding my dogs this diet for the past 12 yrs. based on the breeder's recommendation. Up until 6-7 yrs. ago almost everyone thought I was nuts and told me my dogs would get sick and my children could die from exposure to these dogs (yes, even in CA!). Nice to know I have some fellow raw feeders. I usually get my meat, bones ,etc... from the San Francisco Raw Feeders Co-op. The eggs are from my ducks, and I grow all the veggies & most of the fruit. A typical meal for each of my dogs is ( based on weight of 19 lbs. and a very high activity level)


5 ounces raw meaty bones (may include canned fish(sardines) with bones once or twice a week)
2-3 ounces muscle meat/heart/tripe
1 to 2 ounces liver,kidney, pancreas, brain
1 duck egg every other day 
1 Heaping spoonful of organic Greek yogurt or kefir
1 to 2 ounces vegetables/ fruit 

daily supplements :

oil capsules (700- 800 mg combined EPA and DHA), or 3 small sardines.
200 IUs vitamin E
1/8 to 1/4 tsp green blend
1000 mg vitamin C once/day
Vitamin B-50 complex once or twice a day


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## Questdriven

I feed raw and have been for a year, but don't actually have a menu yet. Basically, I just buy his meat, get a bit of it out when home, freeze the rest, and when one package is gone I thaw out another one. Unless you want the meat to go bad, you do need to make sure that you get out no more than enough to last a week, as well.
I do plan on starting an actual menu...eventually.

But here are the amounts I feed:
Gets: Approx. 7.2 oz. daily
Gets: Approx. 10.8 oz. organ over two weeks
Gets: Aprox. 5.4 oz. of liver over two weeks, same amount of other secreting organ
Gets: Approx. 108 oz. of food over two weeks
Gets: Approx. 10% organ (5% liver/5% other secreting organ)
Gets: Approx. 10% bone
Gets: Aproox. 80% meat


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## BoxMeIn21

Questdriven said:


> I feed raw and have been for a year, but don't actually have a menu yet. Basically, I just buy his meat, get a bit of it out when home, freeze the rest, and when one package is gone I thaw out another one. Unless you want the meat to go bad, you do need to make sure that you get out no more than enough to last a week, as well.
> I do plan on starting an actual menu...eventually.
> 
> But here are the amounts I feed:
> Gets: Approx. 7.2 oz. daily
> Gets: Approx. 10.8 oz. organ over two weeks
> Gets: Aprox. 5.4 oz. of liver over two weeks, same amount of other secreting organ
> Gets: Approx. 108 oz. of food over two weeks
> Gets: Approx. 10% organ (5% liver/5% other secreting organ)
> Gets: Approx. 10% bone
> Gets: Aproox. 80% meat



That's a little odd. What kind of variety do you feed?


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## Questdriven

BoxMeIn21 said:


> That's a little odd. What kind of variety do you feed?


As much as possible. Mostly beef, pork, chicken, and turkey at this point. I try to feed varied cuts of each. I recently found some goat and I feed ox tails sometimes as well. Oh, and bison burgers. Raw, of course.
A sample meal would be a turkey drumstick, with chicken gizzards mixed with turkey meat and crushed egg shells. That's the meal Treader had yesterday.


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## KimBurl

So glad to find this thread!

I have been feeding my Murphy the Bravo Burgers since we got him. This is his daily diet:

Morning:
1 8oz Bravo burger with an egg on top

Night:
1 8oz Bravo burger with 1/3 cup mixed veggie/fruit mush and 1/4 yogurt

Snacks: Marrow bones 2-3 times a week, carrots, organic doggie bones

Supplements:
Fish oil, vitamin E and joint supplement from the vet, he had surgery for a popped criciate ligament a couple months ago.

On days he goes to daycare, I will give him hearts and gizzards in the morning for the extra energy he expends.

I have been wondering if we should be feeding whole meats (chix backs, ect) for the bone factor or if I am missing out on anything. 

He did have bloodwork right before his surgery and all his levels were perfect. He weighs 52lbs, his Vet says he should be 50. But since he had to stop daycare he has not been getting as much exercise as he was used to.

Any opinions would be appreciated


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## Questdriven

We finally started a menu last week on Thursday.

_Thursday: Beef liver, ground beef, and goat mixed with crushed egg shells, chicken foot
Friday: Beef liver and ground beef mixed with crushed egg shells, chicken foot
Saturday: Ground beef and goat mixed with crushed egg shells, chicken foot
Sunday: Goat meat, ground beef, chicken foot
Monday: Goat meat and ground beef, chicken foot
Tuesday: Goat meat (with some bone) and ground beef, chicken foot
Wednesday: Goat meat (with some bone), chicken foot, pork brains_
The first three days are a bit too bone-heavy, I know. I tend to do variety over time and try to use up one package of meat before going to the next. In general.
I also didn't have any real RMBs this week, as you can see. I should be able to get something more mentally challenging for Treader's meal tomorrow.


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## Rufusmom

I tend to make a kinda food stew with my dog and mix together all the meat we give him is organic. I will typically make this and freeze it, this amount lasts me 3 and 1/2 days

1 cup cubed beef or bison (or game meat when I can get it)
1 - 1 1/2 cup organ meat (always tripe, liver, kidney and heart sometimes gizzards) the type of organ meat varries depending on whats availabe at the market
1/2 cup ground lamb, this is fatty so he dosent get that much
1/2 cup salmon (also fatty)
1 cup of lean turkey or chicken breast
1/2 cup of plain yogurt
2 cups vegitables ( usually green beans and carrots)
1 cup of fruit ( usually cranberries or apples)
1 raw egg and shell ground
1/4 teaspoon of salt
5 cups of brown rice or potatoes.

For treats he gets raw bison or beef marrow bones 

I also make him dog treats with pureed liver and wild oats (theese are not raw) I cook the liver then puree it in a blender with a little water and an egg (with the shell) and add oats that have also been thought the blender so they have a flour like consistancy. I mix it up untill it is fairly firm then either roll the dough and cut cookies or just ball it and flatten it on a baking sheet. They only take about 8 min in the oven. My dog loves them so much.

I know this looks like lots of food but I have a fairly active and big dog. He is actually a bit under weight. We used to feed him 2 cups of this a day but have moved to three cups because he is loosing weight. I noticed that no one is feeding any grains, I was told by my vet that he needs at least 50% of his total diet to be carb's for energy and that brown rice, wild oats and potatoes where the best for him. Is there information to the contrary??


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## phoebespeople

I thought I would update my typical weekly menu, it changes and evolves from month to month, depending on what I can get at the meat counter and what's on sale.

AM meals - Pre-made frozen RAW from Buddies. (Ground beef and chicken meat and bone, assorted organ meat, veggie puree, bone dust) Salmon oil , Afalfa/Kelp powder, raw egg with shell, and sardines in water.
Once in a while she gets a 1 lb. green lamb tripe block for breakfast.

PM meals - Turkey neck, beef heart, pork shoulder, whole chicken chunks, beef liver, chicken liver, beef kidney, pork neck bones. Everything is cut into chunks and put randomly in to freezer bags, 14 - 16 oz. each. 

Treats - Beef marrow bones or pork knuckles/shoulder bones.


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## Elisabeth

Posted below is an example of what Stark eats in a weeks time. Stark is 9 almost 10 months old, 77.6lbs and extremely active. He gets about 2lbs of meat, bone and organ per day.

*Monday*

RBM(1lbs): Turkey neck

MM(14.4ounces): Ground beef

OM(1.6ounces):Chicken liver

*Tuesday*

RBM(1lbs): Chicken backs

MM(14.4ounces): Ground lamb

OM(1.6ounces): Beef liver

*Wednesday*

RBM(1lbs): Whole fish - Talipia

MM(14.4ounces): Chicken gizzards and turkey hearts

OM(1.6ounces): Chicken liver
*
Thursday*

RBM(1lbs): Turkey wings

MM(14.4ounces): Pork heart

OM(1.6ounces): Beef liver

*Friday*

RBM(1lbs): Rabbit (whole)

MM(14.4ounces - possibly less dependant on size of rabbit): Chicken breast

OM(1.6ounces - possibly less dependant on size of rabbit): Chicken liver

*Saturday*

RBM(1lbs): Turkey necks

MM(14.4ounces): venison/deer

OM(1.6ounces): Beef liver

*Sunday*

RBM(1lbs): Beef neck bones

MM(14.4ounces): Chicken breast

OM(1.6ounces): Chicken liver


I typically feed my MM and OM together and then have my RBM as a seperate meal.

I do add in other meats but this is a "typical" menu plan for a "typical" week.


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## doggybytes

My two dogs, Zeus & Sweety eat once per day, and usually not the same thing two days in a row.

Foods They Eat:


Chicken Back
Chicken Neck
Chicken Quarters
Turkey Back
Turkey Neck
Turkey Wing
Ground Buffalo Tripe
Beef Liver, Kidney, Heart (snacks a couple of times a week)
Whole Eggs
Whole Herring

I think that's most of it. You'll notice that the only bone-less food is the tripe, which is vile stuff, but my dogs love it.

The only supplement they get is Salmon Oil 2 pumps/day.

I also fast my dogs one day per week. They're not crazy about that, but it gives their digestive system a rest, and I think it was Purina that did a study on Dog's eating 15% less calories (not sure if this is the correct #), lived on average 2 years longer than dogs fed more.


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## phoebespeople

Mesasdad said:


> I am new to being a raw food diet feeder. I have read that the average daily intake should be 2% of body weight. Is that all meat or is that with rice added? Like I said I'm new so please be patient with me but what are the benefits between raw meat and pan fried without any butter and all the juices go into the meal? We recently started our dog on a raw diet but I did cook up the meat to rare. It does make sense to feed them whole foods instead of all the processed food, how am i sure she is getting all the vitamins she should be getting? Any advise would be very much appreciated. Thank you all.


Dogs can eat 2-4% of their body weight per day, depending on their age and activity level, and it should consist of 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. No rice. No grains.
Everything should be RAW, no cooking at all. All of the vitamins,minerals and nutrients a dog needs are in meat, fat, cartilage, sinew, bones, organs, eggs, fish, green tripe, salmon oil, alfalfa/kelp powder, and perhaps veggie puree. 

http://www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm
http://www.totallyrawdogfood.com/MealCalculator.aspx

Here are two RAW food calculators to figure our how much to feed. Phoebe is eating 3% of her body weight right now, she is 1.5 years old and extremely active.

Keep asking questions, RAW feeders love to help!


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## Kathyy

Protein source matters. Poultry is low in some minerals like zinc and iron and very low in the Omega 3. Best to feed as much red meat as you can. Half red meat is good. Any, cheap and tough is the very best.

You can use the fish oil made for humans. I trust human grade stuff above pet quality stuff and use it whenever possible.

I forget to feed egg, it is good stuff. Feed to tolerance and start small, maybe dip a bit out of your raw egg before you cook some for breakfast. Max handles an egg every couple days just fine but I forget to put it in.

The whole chicken you buy at the market is not whole prey 80/10/10. It is "Chicken, broilers or fryers, meat and skin and giblets and neck, raw" from the USDA database, 31% bone.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
It is missing a whole lot of guts, the head, blood, the feathers, the feet. It is low in zinc, iron and copper at the very least. Feeding extra hearts and gizzards with the whole chicken helps a lot. 

Whole prey is a whole furred/feathered animal preferably with blood. Easiest for me to find is whole small mackerel and sardine. The skin has valuable fat, the fur/feather are either fun toys or indigestible 'fiber', blood is high in iron, you get the brain and all sorts of organs you would never find at the grocery store. Just look!
http://web.archive.org/web/20061016171802/www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nutrition/tissue_percentage_of_common_prey.htm

Feeding whole chicken is great, a nice big hard to eat meal. Please use it, just be aware it isn't whole prey!


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## phoebespeople

Terrie said:


> So since a whole chicken fits the percentages, would a raw diet based almost entirely on whole chickens work? I bought a whole _young_ chicken and it took Lexi about a week to eat it. This was a while back, she would have about 14oz a day.
> 
> The thing with raw is I feel it's not the complete diet(that is if all I'm feeding is chicken)? Does protein source matter? I also throw in the occasional egg, how much egg is suggested tho? As far as salmon/fish oil, can I just get the ones that come in capsules for humans?


A RAW diet based entirely on whole chicken is almost the right idea and it's a great place to start for the first couple weeks, but you will need to add other protein sources several times a week. You will want to include meals of turkey, beef, pork, duck, lamb, fish, and green tripe 2, 3, 4, or 5 times a week. A 14 oz. meal of a chicken leg, a piece of turkey neck, a chunk of beef heart, and a chicken liver would be good. If about half of the total diet was chicken, with the rest being a rotation of organ meat and other animals, that would be fine.

Raw egg is fine 2 or 3 times a week, and if you can't find wild salmon oil in a bottle, perhaps just canned sardines (in water) would provide enough omega 3. Try and get ones with as little salt as possible.


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## FaithFurMom09

eta:

Right now they get Chicken (whole cut up)
--next week we hope to start Turkey


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## LynnInTenn

I feed chicken backs every morning. Then the evening meal is similar to what you've written. I don't think I would feed backs and necks all on the same day. Too much bone. I feel like the backs give them a good amount of bone.
If you feed 2 meals a day, that's 14/week. So 10% should be organs so that would be 1.5 meals of organ. I really think getting the proper amount of organ meat is important. I also feed one meal a week of fish.
The simpler the better.
BTW. Liver and kidney is the best, although they both smell.


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## BrooklynNick

Sunday: Turkey Drumstick (AM) & Turkey Liver (PM)

Monday: Turkey Hearts (AM) & Dehydrated Wild Cod Fish Skin (PM)

Tuesday: Whole Dressed Quail (AM) & Ground Goat/Bones/Tripe/Organs (PM)

Wensday: Whole Quail (AM) & Pureed Quail Eggs (PM)

Thursday: Whole Carcass Ground Quail (AM) & Whole 3-Week Old Quail (PM)

Friday: Whole 1-Week Old Quail (AM) & Whole 1-Day Old Quail (PM)

Saturday: Boneless Ground Duck Breast (AM) & Ground Rabbit Organs (PM)


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## Terrie

Current menu! (one meal/day) Going with beef/pork for a week or two. Depending on how she does, then I will go to chicken/turkey. She's had chicken before so there should be no issues there.

SUN: beef muscle meat/beef kidney/no addins

MON: beef muscle meat/pork ribs/1 egg and salmon oil

TUE: beef muscle meat/beef liver/no addins

WED: beef muscle meat/pork meat/ribs/salmon oil

THU: beef muscle meat/pork ribs/beef kidney

FRI: beef muscle meat/beef liver/1 egg

SAT: beef muscle meat/ribs/salmon oil


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## dieterherzog

Just for fun because I'm bored. 12 lb dachshund gets:

Monday:
Morning: 2 oz canned salmon with bones
Evening: Chicken neck, gizzard, heart

Tuesday: 
Morning: 2 oz canned salmon with bones
Evening: 1 beef back rib

Wednesday:
Morning: 2 oz minced turkey with eggshells
Evening: 2 oz minced turkey, liver

Thursday:
Morning: 2 oz minced turkey with eggshells
Evening: 1 whole chicken drumstick

Friday:
Morning: 2 oz chicken meat, chicken neck
Evening: 2 oz chicken meat, 1 egg with shell

Saturday: He gets either a whole chicken quarter or beef ribs or some kind of RMB for the whole day.

He also gets glucosamine supplements and fish oil 2x a week with vitamin e and vitamin c once a week. Sometimes he gets a wee bit of leftover pasta, rice, barley and some fruit.


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## Terrie

I have reduced the salmon oil in her diet. It gave her diarrhea


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## MagicRe

Terrie said:


> I have reduced the salmon oil in her diet. It gave her diarrhea


at costco, we buy their alaskan salmon oil....i think the recommended dosage for my dogs is 1000 mg....

we reduced it, too....to 500 mg...

then again, they also get berte's immune blend and will be starting berte's green blend soon.

right now, after two months on raw, since they don't yet have a typical diet, this is the past week's diet:

sunday:
a.m. chicken back
p.m. bottom round beef

monday:
a.m. chicken drumstick + frozen sardines
p.m. turkey breast no bone

tuesday:
a.m. pork neck + 1 chicken heart
p.m. bottom round beef

wednesday:
a.m. turkey neck
p.m. pork sirloin roast

thursday
a.m. chicken back
p.m. chicken breast no bone

friday (they will get)
a.m. chicken drumstick + one chicken heart + they will start on Berte's green blend (kelp and other greens)
p.m. llama

saturday: (they will get)
a.m. chicken back + smelt
p.m. llama

every day:
1 500 mg alaskan salmon oil gelcap and one tablet of glucosamine/chondroitin (750 mg) -- they think it's a treat
1/8 tsp (since we just started this) berte's immune blend - vitamins/digestive enzymes
1/8 tsp. berte's green blend


----------



## ioreks_mom

Where do you get llama? I would love to get some more exotic meat for my boys but I just don't have the resources, there is nothing like that around here. 

I am currently waiting for fishing season to open so I can get some mackerel. I am also watching the beaches for the capelin to roll. I can't wait to get some fish for my boys! Iorek LOVES fish. In the meantime they get omega capsules every day.


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> Where do you get llama? I would love to get some more exotic meat for my boys but I just don't have the resources, there is nothing like that around here.
> 
> I am currently waiting for fishing season to open so I can get some mackerel. I am also watching the beaches for the capelin to roll. I can't wait to get some fish for my boys! Iorek LOVES fish. In the meantime they get omega capsules every day.


i belong to a co op for people in washington/oregon states....i think there are six hundred members...

so, there's this farmer who raises cattle and llama and they are a little older...not so sure i'd eat it..but they are grass fed and humanely slaughtered, both the cattle and the llama....

it's expensive, but they love it...i think it rolls in at 2 dollars a pound for the llama....but it's lean, so worth it...

i'm ordering more today, along with beef chunks/bone in - that's going to cost 1.20 per pound....can't beat the price anywhere else....

what is a capelin?

i wish i could find tilapia that wasn't farmed in china....i wish i could feed them salmon because i can get salmon heads, but they are pacific northwest or alaskan and they have that parasite....trout, too.

so we're going to be limited to smelt, sardines and i don't know what else i can find whole....

i'm so glad your guys are doing well on raw again....i've been watching 

mine are, too, once i figured out i was overfeeding and had started out with too much fat.....LOL -- gotta love human error.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers

It is so nice, I must say, to see that so many people are feeding their dogs fresh food. When I started as a raw feeder in the early 90s, let me tell you, it was a controversial subject, even among dog people!

There was little to NO support as far as feeding raw diets. Those of us who started "way back when" used common sense, and we learned as we went along. Lew Olson, of B-Naturals, was a mentor for me with raw diets, and she has very good products. For me I prefer Nature's Farmacy products at this time for my supplements, but that's just personal. Today I ordered supps which will cover my 4 dogs for about 3 mos. About $145.00US, including shipping, so I am spending about $50/mo for supplements. I also supplement occasionally with fish body oil, or salmon oil, or flax seed oil, and vitamin D.

The base of my diet is meat, which I buy from Blue Ridge Beef. I use several products from BRB, including their lean beef, the natural mix (beef organ meats), and their ground green tripe. I also buy knuckle bones from BRB. Products from BRB average about .95 to 1.10/lb. I go through about 125 lbs per month for 4 dogs.

In addition, most days my dogs eat chicken leg quarters that I buy at Walmart. Right now their chicken is about .60/lb. I use about 150 lbs of chicken/mo.

I look for specials around to vary the diet. They like pork neck bones, canned fish, and any venison I can come across.

Occasional additives include raw or cooked eggs, cottage cheese, plain yoghurt, table leftovers, sweet potatoes, soaked oatmeal, cooked brown rice or whole wheat pasta, chopped/ground leafy greens or herbs.

My dogs are fed once per day in the evening. I will use Milton for an example. A typical meal for him would be about a pound of meat with supplements mixed in, a raw egg, a dollop of yoghurt, and 2 to 3 leg quarters depending on size.


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## ioreks_mom

You are so lucky that you can join a co-op. I am the only person in my community that feeds their dog raw so there is no option for me. As soon as we can find a place to store our couch that is currently residing in my basement I will get another chest freezer and then I will be getting a 1/2 a pig, cut and wrapped. It is going to be about $140! That is a fantastic price. I will also ask about pork neck bones and any organs that I can get from him. I can't wait.

My husband's co-worker has a boat and he fishes so he said that he would get mackerel for us if he catches any. I hope that he does get some. The extra freezer will come in handy then too!

Capelin are little silver fish that, during the summer, will come in the bay in swarms and they end up rolling on the beach. I plan to go down with buckets and picking them up (ewwwww) and then taking them home and freezing them. I can't wait. Here is a link.


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## MagicRe

RedyreRottweilers said:


> It is so nice, I must say, to see that so many people are feeding their dogs fresh food. When I started as a raw feeder in the early 90s, let me tell you, it was a controversial subject, even among dog people!
> 
> There was little to NO support as far as feeding raw diets. Those of us who started "way back when" used common sense, and we learned as we went along. Lew Olson, of B-Naturals, was a mentor for me with raw diets, and she has very good products. For me I prefer Nature's Farmacy products at this time for my supplements, but that's just personal. Today I ordered supps which will cover my 4 dogs for about 3 mos. About $145.00US, including shipping, so I am spending about $50/mo for supplements. I also supplement occasionally with fish body oil, or salmon oil, or flax seed oil, and vitamin D.
> 
> The base of my diet is meat, which I buy from Blue Ridge Beef. I use several products from BRB, including their lean beef, the natural mix (beef organ meats), and their ground green tripe. I also buy knuckle bones from BRB. Products from BRB average about .95 to 1.10/lb. I go through about 125 lbs per month for 4 dogs.
> 
> In addition, most days my dogs eat chicken leg quarters that I buy at Walmart. Right now their chicken is about .60/lb. I use about 150 lbs of chicken/mo.
> 
> I look for specials around to vary the diet. They like pork neck bones, canned fish, and any venison I can come across.
> 
> Occasional additives include raw or cooked eggs, cottage cheese, plain yoghurt, table leftovers, sweet potatoes, soaked oatmeal, cooked brown rice or whole wheat pasta, chopped/ground leafy greens or herbs.
> 
> My dogs are fed once per day in the evening. I will use Milton for an example. A typical meal for him would be about a pound of meat with supplements mixed in, a raw egg, a dollop of yoghurt, and 2 to 3 leg quarters depending on size.


i don't remember who recommended b-naturals...but it was a saviour when both dogs were being treated for giardia...and we needed probiotics...

i belong to lew olson's mailing list and it has been invaluable to me as a newbie....

i've also read about the controversy..and i remember when billinghurst came out with his diet and pitcairn came out with his.....

interesting how people in my groups talk about feeding raw for thirty plus years....and it was an under the radar thing for most of us not involved.

now, as a newcomer, i know i'm getting a tiny percentage of the flak you guys got.....one of my friends refuses to come over because my dogs are fed raw. well, one less person at my birthday parties....


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> You are so lucky that you can join a co-op. I am the only person in my community that feeds their dog raw so there is no option for me. As soon as we can find a place to store our couch that is currently residing in my basement I will get another chest freezer and then I will be getting a 1/2 a pig, cut and wrapped. It is going to be about $140! That is a fantastic price. I will also ask about pork neck bones and any organs that I can get from him. I can't wait.
> 
> My husband's co-worker has a boat and he fishes so he said that he would get mackerel for us if he catches any. I hope that he does get some. The extra freezer will come in handy then too!
> 
> Capelin are little silver fish that, during the summer, will come in the bay in swarms and they end up rolling on the beach. I plan to go down with buckets and picking them up (ewwwww) and then taking them home and freezing them. I can't wait. Here is a link.


aha....they look like and are related to the smelts i feed my dogs....course, for my dogs, they're the perfect size as an add on....

i have sardines that look like whole meals....my dogs don't care for even the tiny sardines i found...but they don't get their other stuff until they eat the sardine. can't wait to see how they take to the bigger sardines and livers/kidneys/pancreas and spleens we found LOL

tell you true....we are thinking of getting rid of our chest freezer....i have grown to loathe it.

there is no dignity in being not tall and falling into a chest freezer trying to get the last item on the bottom...

i have to rotate it too often....because all the new stuff goes on top. there is no good way, at least for me, to organise it.

we picked up a great used freezer.....and at least i can see what i bought...

the chest freezer might be good for boxes from the co op...we're getting calf ribs which for my small guy will be good...

i think 140. is good pricing for half a pig? but i haven't bought a half of anything in a while....my dogs are so much smaller than yours....it would take a year for them to go through that much LOL


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## ioreks_mom

My friends got pork from this guy last year. They said it filled their 7 cubic foot freezer. The pork is cut and wrapped for people so we may share with the boys  Not the organs or pork neck though! 

My freezer is not too big so I can reach the bottom no problem. I am not that tall either. I plan to get another one the same size. I have been scouring the classifieds in my area to get a used one but I haven't found one yet. There was one listed for $50 but it was snatched up so quick!

My boys eat between 1.25 to 1.5 lb a day. When we do fish I plan to do a whole meal of fish rather than just an add on. That will mean quite a few capelin at a time. I am hoping that Brom will like it as much as Iorek does. My boys are fed once a day in the evening, like Red's dogs. I have been keeping most meals to 1.25 lb because Iorek is finally up to a weight that we are happy with and both boys seem to be the right weight now. This is a little more than 2% of 60 lb but they do well on it. 

I still have a bunch of moose in my freezer but it is ribs and the bones are too hard for them to eat so I have to thaw it all and cut out the bone. I also have beef heart and moose heart. I will thaw it all and cut it into a good size and I will start giving moose with their chicken and turkey. It is going to be messy work but they are worth it!


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## MagicRe

my one dog gets between 6 to 8 oz a day and the other one gets around 10 oz per day...

so, about a pound a day for both dogs...sometimes, it's more challenging i think to feed smaller dogs....

that's why the add on...i have sardines that weigh a pound. i figure when i get to them....since we freeze all fish....i'll just cut them lengthwise and feed them as a whole meal, rather than an add on...

but the smelts or capelin like fish...are small enough...they weigh about an ounce or so....makes for some variety...

we bought a chest freezer, originally, because husband has huge SUV or thought he was getting the HUGE SUV for work with a gadzillion dollars worth of equipment..and needed to be parked in the garage....instead, he got the smaller SUV....so we could have bought an upright freezer...now we have two.

come on over and i'll give you my chest freezer LOL


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## ioreks_mom

I can totally understand how it would be harder to feed smaller dogs. I started feeding one meal a day because some things are too hard to make smaller. Chicken legs and stuff are much easier but big things like pork neck and turkey necks and such can't be cut easily. I don't like the idea of cutting something like a turkey neck because then it will be small enough for Brom to swallow whole.


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## MagicRe

when you get the half pig from your guy, can you ask him to cut the pork necks a certain way?

i keep getting conflicting information about pork necks....and any butcher cuts that have sharp edges.....

some say don't feed. others say it's okay. not sure what i'm going to do with the ones i've got....

i've seen my bubba take a baby back pork rib and split it down the middle and swallow it....certainly it's got sharp edges.

i think for him, pork necks will be recreational....for malia, who knows?

i wish i could do one meal a day, but bubba only weighs 17-18 lbs....he's a little small for that..malia could probably go to one meal a day....she's 36 lbs....but she's ten and used to twice a day...so i guess i have to be a little inventive...


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## ioreks_mom

I have one pork neck left in my freezer from when I lived in Halifax and I could order from a raw food company. I will ask the butcher if he can cut it that way for me. They are definitely more of a recreational thing but I think that one every 2 weeks or so as a kind of fasting day will be good. It will give the boys something to do for an hour or so and will really clean their teeth.  The pork neck that I have does have sharp edges but I think that it is different for a bigger mouth (my dog compared to your dog). Iorek never had a problem with them and he really loved chewing on them. I like the pork necks much better than beef neck. I though that they were too hard and too pointy.

Iorek did the same to the moose rib that he had, split it down the middle lengthwise, and swallowed it!  He threw up the bones the next day. I was so scared and I will never give them again. He used to eat lamb ribs and he could chew the bones no problem. I guess moose ribs are just harder since they are so much bigger. I thought that since they weren't weight bearing they would be ok.


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## MagicRe

when my dogs crunch and swallow some bones.....they have sharp edges on them....i, too, got a little nervous, when bubba took a 3/4 inch split piece of bone, swallowed it...

i had dreams of bloody diarrhea....and yet? all he did was a little foamy vomit a few hours later, bone intact.

apparently, their bodies work this out most of the time...

i will still feed him pork ribs..but i will not feed him just one..i'll give him three of them so he can work the meat off and get a little bone from it, without having to eat the whole thing...i'm learning bigger is better.


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## RedyreRottweilers

MagicRe said:


> i'm learning bigger is better.


I'm starting to like you.


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## MagicRe

i have dreams of throwing a whole chicken at my pug...and if it doesn't kill him, from the blunt force trauma....he can eat on it for a week...

this kid thinks he's a rottie!

ps. your dogs are beautiful.......i have a dog who thinks he's a rottie. we try not to tell him he's just an appetiser LOL


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## RonE

For a sticky to remain useful as a reference, it must remain strictly on topic. The topic of this one is Raw Feeders: Please post typical weekly menu.

The general discussions, which I personally find more interesting, should be in a separate (non-sticky) thread.


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## mrslloyd09

I was actually just thinking about the girls' menu today. Right now they're eating thru a whole chicken and then thru meat (this last time it was beef heart and cheek). I really try to subscribe to 80/10/10 over time, which is why they don't get bone with every meal (which I worried about with Melodie since she has such a sensitive tummy but it hasn't been an issue). They get their organ when they are eating the chicken. The only things they get on a regular schedule are:

Tuesday- Raw egg (and maybe again on Saturday)
Every day- Fish oil capsule

The girls also get ribs and I was feeding them sardines but until I can get fresh ones, the fish oil will have to do.


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## ioreks_mom

Your schedule is a lot like mine!  Haha! The my boys get their egg every Saturday and their fish oil every day. I am thinking that I will do more eggs during the week. I am just not sure how many they should get and I am worried that it will be too much. They also get yogurt and grapefruit seed extract every day, alfalfa and kelp every Sunday and multivitamins 2 days a week just in case.


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## Kathyy

On a weekly basis Max is getting boneless pork and ground beef for meat and chicken feet and venison neck bones for bone. Feet are easy small bone and neck is a fun long chew. He is getting a beef organ grind twice a week for organ and meat and a rabbit/sardine grind twice a week for bone and a different set of organs and omega 3. If a meal is a bit small a couple days in a row I add an egg. He gets home made dried beef liver and bits of leftover meats for treats and snacks that total about an ounce per day.


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## MagicRe

this week, the malia and bubba ate:

smelt
sardine
chicken
llama
pork neck
beef heart
chicken liver


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## MagicRe

this week, malia and bubba got:

frozen sardine
chicken
chicken liver
beef heart and chicken heart
beef round roast
pork sirloin roast


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## bbz

A general weekly feeding example for my rotty 

lamb bone morning, green lamb tripe at night
chicken necks morning, k9 natural lamb at night 
whole rabbit
then i start again. I prefer lamb and venison over other meats as they seem to keep the itchys at bay, i feed k9 because too busy make up a complete raw diet myself


for treats, i use freeze dried chicken hearts, k9 natural lamb treats, a few veal ribs, and sometimes to keep her occupied an apple 

She eats better than i do


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## MagicRe

we've been trying new things...

finally got my dogs to eat kidney.....lamb kidney....

now they get that and beef liver every day....with their salmon oil gelcaps...i think of the liver and kidney as vitamins

they are eating a wide variety now.....

although tonight will be their first taste of lamb tongue

this week, they ate
llama
chicken feet, nails and all
beef + beef ribs for play
pork ribs
lamb kidney
beef liver
sardines
pork kidney
chicken
lamb tongue (tonight)


next week -- goat and fresh mackerel


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## ioreks_mom

unfortunately i don't have much opportunity for variety around here  my boys staple diet is chicken and i add whatever meat i have in the freezer. right now it is moose and newfoundland tur (which is a salt water bird that looks sort of like a penguin  dark, greasy meat). i also feed them smelt because i haven't had the opportunity to get any other fish yet. a friend of ours has a boat and has promised to take us out to get mackerel straight out of the ocean. lucky dogs! the only organs i can get is beef liver so the boys also get multivitamins and salmon oil and vit. e. they also get kelp and alfalfa. 

i got the moose and tur for free when my friend's dad cleaned out his freezer. i am going to advertise asking for freezer burnt meat again soon since moose hunting season starts again this weekend. it is awesome to get it all for free like that! 

so, on a typical day they would get beef liver, chicken, moose meat, yogurt, grapefruit seed extract, multivitamins, salmon oil, and vitamin e. they get the kelp and alfalfa only on sundays and fish on fridays.


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## MagicRe

wow. you get moose. jealous human, jealous dogs LOL

if you're feeding any kind of liver, then supplementation with vitamins seems redundant..liver is filled with vitamins...especially the fat solubles....

we also feed smelt, but i think we'll stop because it's not so high in omega 3....hence the salmon oil gelcaps....


----------



## ioreks_mom

i was thinking that since i can't get any other organs maybe the dogs are missing out on something if they just get liver. what do you think? 

i can get chicken hearts, i forgot, they get 2 or 3 of them a day too most days.

and, we plan to get some pork soon from a butcher that raises his own pigs. hopefully we will have that in the next month or so. (i lost his number so i have to figure it out again! )


----------



## MagicRe

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3469/2 - that gives you the whole breakdown for liver...

that should account for approximately 5% of the 10% appromixate in organs....

if you can get kidney, then you're golden...and chicken frames have kidneys on them...

hearts are a richer muscle meat....not usually counted in as organs.

if you can get pork, that provides a lot of the b supps....

i'd just be cautious about fat solubles....

other than that, they really don't have the ability to digest kelp and sea greens....although others disagree....

but ya know? if they are doing well on what you give them.....then don't fix what isn't broken..

how's the itching?


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## ioreks_mom

i can't get kidney at all  i can't get chicken frame either. boo! i do get miscut chicken and sometimes the that includes the ribs/spine/whatever attached organs. i know that hearts are muscle meat, not organs  i was just adding that to my list.

i don't know if the alfalfa and kelp does anything but i figured it had some trace minerals that they might get. it is a finely ground powder so hopefully that helps. 

the itching is same as always... :S i am starting to wonder again if it isn't displacement behaviour... i am starting the control unleashed program (from the book) and i am going to see if that helps any with the itching. the vet and i originally thought it was displacement. maybe it really is. his skin never looks sore/dry/red/flakey etc. it is never greasy either. he isn't stinky. the ketoconazole did nothing for him but give him a tummy ache and really up his water intake for a while. it is quite frustrating but maybe this new training will help. i can hope, right?!


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## MagicRe

sometimes a thing is what it is....maybe he's just an itchy dog...

as to the kelp and sea greens....i think the jury is still out; and, certainly it cannot hurt them.

if you're not doing salmon oil and you can get some virgin cold pressed mercury free alaskan salmon oil....it is very good for your dogs....if they aren't already on it.


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## ioreks_mom

yup, they are one salmon oil and vit e. they get 2 salmon oil caplets and 1 vit e caplet a day  they love them! they think they are treats.


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## Kathyy

I wonder if the salt water bird might be high in Omega 3 anyway? 

I think I captured Artie's scratching with the clicker. When he is frustrated he sits, downs, scoots backward then sits up and scratches. Hoping getting clicked for scratching makes it too valuable a behavior to do for free. Only been two days but he was delighted to show off the second day.

*On topic*, Max had chicken carcass for bone, pork cutlets and beef organ mix for 3 days and the rest of the week has been spent working a 6 pound llama head. Hard to believe the little he is getting off it is satisfying him but he hasn't started gnawing on me yet.


----------



## MagicRe

Kathyy said:


> *On topic*, Max had chicken carcass for bone, pork cutlets and beef organ mix for 3 days and the rest of the week has been spent working a 6 pound llama head. Hard to believe the little he is getting off it is satisfying him but he hasn't started gnawing on me yet.


my dogs have been on raw now for six months.....they still can't go more than four meals without getting bone...normal? or just them? they do eat quite a bit of pork and beef and llama and lamb....


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## Kathyy

Max seems to to be gnawing some bone off the head daily. That along with the hairy skin is firming up his poop nicely. Max can go one day without bone if I feed a small meal with no organ and that is about it. Not a dog problem a poop picker upper problem! He has been eating raw nearly 3 years.


----------



## MagicRe

Kathyy said:


> Max seems to to be gnawing some bone off the head daily. That along with the hairy skin is firming up his poop nicely. Max can go one day without bone if I feed a small meal with no organ and that is about it. Not a dog problem a poop picker upper problem! He has been eating raw nearly 3 years.


so i'm not the only one who feeds more than 10% bone over time....'course, my dogs have never had the pleasure of having a llama head....i can just see the pug trying that one....LOL

maybe it's because they eat organs every day as opposed to once a week....it adds up to what they need per week, but it's just easier to feed them that way because honey and i take our vitamins, so they take theirs and that way, i'm not feeding them breakfast at 4:30 in the morning.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

iorek's mom...here's the nutritional data on moose


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## ioreks_mom

Kathyy said:


> I wonder if the salt water bird might be high in Omega 3 anyway?
> 
> *I think I captured Artie's scratching with the clicker. When he is frustrated he sits, downs, scoots backward then sits up and scratches. Hoping getting clicked for scratching makes it too valuable a behavior to do for free. Only been two days but he was delighted to show off the second day.*
> 
> *On topic*, Max had chicken carcass for bone, pork cutlets and beef organ mix for 3 days and the rest of the week has been spent working a 6 pound llama head. Hard two believe the little he is getting off it is satisfying him but he hasn't started gnawing on me yet.


what an awesome idea! maybe i will have to try that on iorek! 

i don't think i could just have a head of an animal laying around like that for the boys to chew on. i don't think i could handle it! :S 

i guess salt water birds would probably be higher in omegas but i can barely find any information on a tur so i don't know if i could find there nutritional info. i will have to search tomorrow 



MagicRe said:


> so i'm not the only one who feeds more than 10% bone over time....'course, my dogs have never had the pleasure of having a llama head....i can just see the pug trying that one....LOL
> 
> maybe it's because they eat organs every day as opposed to once a week....it adds up to what they need per week, but it's just easier to feed them that way because honey and i take our vitamins, so they take theirs and that way, i'm not feeding them breakfast at 4:30 in the morning.
> 
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl
> 
> iorek's mom...here's the nutritional data on moose


thanks for the link!  i guess moose doesn't have any nutritional value since i clicked on the link and it said zero!  haha! i will have to check again later.


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## MagicRe

when you do a search, leave it on 'all food groups'.....


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## ioreks_mom

thanks  i searched moose and it gave a lot of info! what an awesome site


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## 1jparker

My daily raw menu: 

AM: Brown Rice, yogurt, banana (substituted with canned pumpkin, carrots, or any canned veggie) 
PM: Chicken necks, chicken backs, chicken wings, livers, or what have you. I never do beef other than marrow bones as treats. I find it gives them terrible gas. 
My vet says I have the best fit labs in the town. And he is not a raw diet promoter. 
My labs are 10 and 6, both around 75 lbs. LOVE THEM DEARLY


----------



## MagicRe

1jparker said:


> My daily raw menu:
> 
> AM: Brown Rice, yogurt, banana (substituted with canned pumpkin, carrots, or any canned veggie)
> PM: Chicken necks, chicken backs, chicken wings, livers, or what have you. I never do beef other than marrow bones as treats. I find it gives them terrible gas.
> My vet says I have the best fit labs in the town. And he is not a raw diet promoter.
> My labs are 10 and 6, both around 75 lbs. LOVE THEM DEARLY


no beef? really? no fish? no pork? nothing but chicken? wow. how long have you been feeding raw?

this week my kids had:

goat ribs
venison heart
chicken
pork roast
sardines
beef ribs
bison kidney
beef liver


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## ioreks_mom

got a SUPER great price on pork a few days ago so the boys are getting turkey necks, pork, and beef liver


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## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> got a SUPER great price on pork a few days ago so the boys are getting turkey necks, pork, and beef liver


how'd it go with the pork? did they love it?


----------



## ioreks_mom

pork is tomorrow  the turkey necks are still a frozen 10 lb block! i need to thaw it all and then i will package it up tomorrow and they will have the pork then


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> pork is tomorrow  the turkey necks are still a frozen 10 lb block! i need to thaw it all and then i will package it up tomorrow and they will have the pork then


awesome!! let me know how they like it.....


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## ioreks_mom

well, i think brom liked the pork  he ate it so fast i am not sure he tasted it! iorek had pork before but not for a long time. this was brom's first time with pork. they both had turkey necks with it so i am hoping the extra bone with the pork will avoid any bummy issues.


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## MagicRe

i'm glad they liked their pork.....i am pretty sure the turkey necks will keep them from having issues....i have noticed, though, that i can feed a boneless meal now, two or three even, before i have to give bone again....yay


----------



## DJsMom

our menu NORMALLY consists of:
whole chicken parts each evening meal
some type of frozen commercial raw food (primal, Naure's Variety or Stella & Chewy's) for variety, usually for the AM meal
I add raw eggs twice a week, as well as liver or kidney once or twice a week

ETA: I try to throw beef heart into the menu once a week also & some fish once in awhile


----------



## ioreks_mom

i still can't do a no bone meal for iorek and he has been eating raw for over a year and a half.  brom handles it better but i keep bone in all the meals and it is easier for us all.


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> i still can't do a no bone meal for iorek and he has been eating raw for over a year and a half.  brom handles it better but i keep bone in all the meals and it is easier for us all.


malia needs more bone than bubba does....but i figure it's because they are eating rich foods, like lamb and venison heart and they get pork and beef all the time. the only time they get chicken these days is when they need bone and i'm out of pork ribs.....it's because they're smaller dogs...and they can't eat bigger bones than chicken and pork ribs.....i don't do turkey necks anymore because they are needing less bone as we go along...and turkey necks, i have to cut too small...come over. i have some...


----------



## MagicRe

this week my dogs had rabbit for the very first time, so their menu for the week will be:

rabbit
lamb tongue
beef
chicken
smelt
venison heart
pork rib and pork roast


----------



## Kathyy

When I feed big stuff like that llama head I wash off the leftovers and put in in a plastic bin to control leakage inside a paper bag so I don't have to see it in the refrigerator. I am not devolved enough to leave stuff like that outside for him to nibble on at his leisure. It never gets cold here and crows, ravens, flies, yellow jackets and various mammals would come to eat as well. Haven't seen turkey vultures lately, be sort of cool to see one in my own back yard. No, must resist, don't want to bother nice neighbors!

This past week Max has been fed through a rack of beef ribs, 2 per day, beef organ grind, stinky chunks of beef roast, chicken feet and rabbit head-gut/sardine grind. There was a chunk of pork ribs in there as well, he ate almost all of it and pooped pebbles for two days, poor thing. Guess I will be offering single ribs to avoid that even though he usually won't eat all the ribs. Stinker.


----------



## MagicRe

kathyy...i don't know how you feed heads, i don't care if you covered it with a tarp and gilded it....i would not be able to look at it in its various stages of being eaten....

but i do give you all the credit in the world....perhaps one day, i'll get there....i was grossed out by lamb tongues tonight...so i guess i'm not there yet. LOL


----------



## MagicRe

this week's menu:

they will be intro'd to tripe
beef/beef ribs(they gnaw on the bones)
rabbit
chicken frame
mackerel
pork shoulder roast
venison heart
lamb liver
bison kidney
llama


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## ioreks_mom

my boys would like me to tell you that they are jealous of your dogs' selection!  but, iorek would like for me to add that they can eat all the tripe because that is just yucky! haha!


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> my boys would like me to tell you that they are jealous of your dogs' selection!  but, iorek would like for me to add that they can eat all the tripe because that is just yucky! haha!


jury's still out on this one....i'm not so sure they need tripe for their diet....seems every list and forum member has different ideas about tripe...

so of course, i had to try it LOL

i'll let iorek know......


----------



## ioreks_mom

haha! he didn't like it at all and i was so grateful because it is STINKY!


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> haha! he didn't like it at all and i was so grateful because it is STINKY!


so i've heard. so far, though, my dogs eat anything they get because they are grateful and learned the hard way that it's my way or no food LOL

if they don't like it, i won't buy it again.....it's from greentripe.com
one is a blend with trachea, i think....


----------



## ioreks_mom

eeeeewww! hahaha! i am so happy i can feed the boys raw but i really don't like to think about it most times. i was actually sad packing up all the mackerel the other day because they were alive and swimming in the ocean just that morning... i just have to keep reminding myself how much i love my boys!


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## MagicRe

week of 10/9

i'm posting this early because my dogs got tripe with trachea and they went WILD for it.
they only got a 1/2 ounce each two days in a row because that's how i introduce food....little bits at a time and then increase over time.

it seems to work to get them used to it, so i don't have picky eaters...
plus,
smelt
pork shoulder
bison kidney
beef liver
lamb riblets
and, of course, the new tripe/trachea


----------



## nursebnichols

I feed my Mini Bull and standard bully a crazy mix of this and that, but with a firm base of either chicken or turkey backs or necks. 

On top of the backs and/or necks (I prefer the backs because there is always liver/kidneys/thymus attached still to the back so you don't have to worry about adding that back in), they usually get about a raw egg a day, some goat milk yogurt (I don't give cow's milk anything to the dogs = diarrhea) and whatever raw or cooked vegetables or fruit I throw their way during the day. My mini bull is unbelievably picky so I gave up trying to micromanage her diet to the extreme a while ago. I also buy Tripett brand tripe, either the lamb tripe or beef and give that a few times a week along with salmon oil caps daily.

I also buy ultra premium kibble (Orijen, Evo, Now!, Evanger, etc...)to have on hand on hectic days when I can't feed raw for whatever reason. I rotate brands constantly based on dog pickiness and just to rotate because it is good for them. Plus they like kibbles.

I honestly don't have time to be figuring a menu of venison/pork/beef/etc weekly for them, I don't even do that for myself, lol! I feel also once you start wandering outside the range on 99cents/lb range its getting pretty pricey. Beef, lamb, pork are all much more expensive than chicken backs and I have a budget to adhere to. Of course in a perfect world, every night I would have a different kind of freshly killed wild-caught organic game for my pooch to dine on nightly, but, well, lets be realistic. I have to eat too. Depending on your budget and how much time you want to dedicate to planning (and obtaining) your dog's menu; it can almost become all consuming. When I first started feeding raw, it was almost overwhelming. My humble advice is don't let it take over your life! Feed clean and raw but don't go overboard. I hope this is helpful.


----------



## MagicRe

nursebnichols said:


> I feed my Mini Bull and standard bully a crazy mix of this and that, but with a firm base of either chicken or turkey backs or necks.
> 
> On top of the backs and/or necks (I prefer the backs because there is always liver/kidneys/thymus attached still to the back so you don't have to worry about adding that back in), they usually get about a raw egg a day, some goat milk yogurt (I don't give cow's milk anything to the dogs = diarrhea) and whatever raw or cooked vegetables or fruit I throw their way during the day. My mini bull is unbelievably picky so I gave up trying to micromanage her diet to the extreme a while ago. I also buy Tripett brand tripe, either the lamb tripe or beef and give that a few times a week along with salmon oil caps daily.
> 
> I also buy ultra premium kibble (Orijen, Evo, Now!, Evanger, etc...)to have on hand on hectic days when I can't feed raw for whatever reason. I rotate brands constantly based on dog pickiness and just to rotate because it is good for them. Plus they like kibbles.
> 
> I honestly don't have time to be figuring a menu of venison/pork/beef/etc weekly for them, I don't even do that for myself, lol! I feel also once you start wandering outside the range on 99cents/lb range its getting pretty pricey. Beef, lamb, pork are all much more expensive than chicken backs and I have a budget to adhere to. Of course in a perfect world, every night I would have a different kind of freshly killed wild-caught organic game for my pooch to dine on nightly, but, well, lets be realistic. I have to eat too. Depending on your budget and how much time you want to dedicate to planning (and obtaining) your dog's menu; it can almost become all consuming. When I first started feeding raw, it was almost overwhelming. My humble advice is don't let it take over your life! Feed clean and raw but don't go overboard. I hope this is helpful.


fortunately or unfortunately.....i belong to a co op....and i have two smallish dogs....so my price point can be a little bit higher.

we are also having grocery store wars on beef and pork....so shopping sales is good for both the humans and the dogs...

because i feed frankenprey, i look for the widest variety i can find and afford....with my set price point...so over time, they get as much variety as possible. each body part of an animal offers a certain nutritional panel.....

i think people, for the most part, do the best they can....gather as much information as they can and then do what's comfortable and what makes sense...to them...

i know what you mean about feeling overwhelmed....i know i did....not so much anymore.....but it did take a few months....

week ending 10/16
venison heart
pork kidney
boneless beef
pork rib
mackerel
tripe with trachea
chicken frame
beef liver
whole egg


----------



## Two Sox

It's great to read the variety of what people give their dogs as part of a natural diet. Just shows that there is no hard and fast law about quantities and ratios of bone, and strict weekly diet sheets about when to give what supplements etc. That's is what can put newbies off feeding raw. I know some people who can get really anal about the whole thing.

We've been feeding our 4 mals raw for about 4 years now and we have never looked back. There were some instantly noticable changes in our dogs health and feeding attitudes as soon as we switched. Our youngest bitch had quite dirty ears as a youngster, not muddy, just brown...within a few days of switching to raw they were clean and pink 

Our typical diet consists of
am - beef & pork mince (supermarket value brand) & tablespoon of bio yogurt
pm - usually turkey wings but maybe 1-2 times a week they have mince with offal (turkey heart/liver/kidney, lambs heart/liver, pig kidney/liver, ox heart/liver/kidney) and a veg mix (carrot/potato/apple/squash/tomato/mushroom/peas anything in the fridge really).
Occassionally they get a raw egg or cottage cheese, fish - usually trout or salmon as OH is an angler, lamb breast, pork chops, venison or rabbit or pheasant.
All very random and unplanned...but they thrive on it 

I don't do tripe coz even the dogs turned their noses up at the smell! We also don't give big RMB as we'd need to seperate everyone, although we have been thinking about giving it a try lately. We've just found a tame butcher who can supply us with trimmings and bones.

One of ours is fruit mad...she will pick blackberries off the bush and plums off the tree...and she would kill for a banana!

Just out of curiosity...where would I get hold of Llama!! lol


----------



## MagicRe

i'm very lucky in that i belong to a co op and llama is on the list of things we can get in enough quantity because there are 600-700 members on our list....we live in washington state....

feeding for week of 10/23
lamb shoulder
pork butt
tripe with trachea and gullet
beef liver
pork kidney
chicken frame
mackerel
beef ribs
beef
venison heart


----------



## bumblegoat

The latest week has been something like this:
Bone-in lamb + chicken livers
Chicken thigh
Canned sardines + egg
Ground beef + bone meal + beef heart
Ground beef + bone meal
Chicken thigh
Pork kidney + pork heart + bone meal

I prefer not to feed ground meats, but the ground beef was originally for me but it turned grey and started smellying bad. I probably could have eaten it myself, but I prefer to give it to the dog instead. 

He also gets a fish oil capsule now and then. Not exactly every day, but almost. I use bone meal because my dog doesn't handle boneless meals too well unfortunately, so having some bone meal makes things easier. Hopefully I can stop using it one day.

Some other things that I often feed is beef scraps from grass fed beef, which tend to be very fatty. All kinds of chicken or hen are also commonly fed here. I also incoporated some tripe, moose and whatever else I can find at a decent price. My dog doesn't really like fresh fish, which is why I give canned fish.


----------



## MagicRe

week ending 10/30

tripe with trachea
lamb necks
chicken thigh
boneless beef
smelt
lamb heart
bison kidney
beef liver
egg
pork rib
salmon oil gelcap


----------



## Kathyy

Lately due to a huge buy of chicken bits the menu has consisted of larger meals
2 meals of chicken head/neck+beef organ mix+ boneless beef/chicken gizzards and 
2 meals of venison bony chunk+sardine/rabbit guts and head grind+pork to make a larger meal
alternating with either boneless pork or beef in smaller amounts


----------



## MagicRe

Kathyy said:


> Lately due to a huge buy of chicken bits the menu has consisted of larger meals
> 2 meals of chicken head/neck+beef organ mix+ boneless beef/chicken gizzards and
> 2 meals of venison bony chunk+sardine/rabbit guts and head grind+pork to make a larger meal
> alternating with either boneless pork or beef in smaller amounts


i've never seen the chicken neck with the head attached. that must be awesome...beak, too?


----------



## Kathyy

He doesn't even seem to notice the head, beak and all. I am thrilled to be able to feed the head. Just a lot of chicken to feed through is all - it was a package deal. Box of necks and heads, box of livers, box of gizzards and box of feet. This is for one 38 pound dog. Going to be a lot of fun chicken bits for quite a while around here!


----------



## MagicRe

Kathyy said:


> He doesn't even seem to notice the head, beak and all. I am thrilled to be able to feed the head. Just a lot of chicken to feed through is all - it was a package deal. Box of necks and heads, box of livers, box of gizzards and box of feet. This is for one 38 pound dog. Going to be a lot of fun chicken bits for quite a while around here!


even still...that's a great score!


----------



## MagicRe

week ending 11/7

venison shoulder chops
egg
beef
pork butt roast
chicken
chicken frame
lamb heart
bison kidney
beef liver
mackerel


----------



## Sibe

I'm just starting my pup on raw and though I feel I have the basics down I know I have a lot to learn and could use some pointers on developing a starter meal plan. I got a bunch of turkey necks today. Tomorrow I am headed out to hunt down chicken backs/quarters. My plan is to feed chicken in the morning, turkey at night for about a week before trying anything more. She has been on Orijen or TOTW kibble but I've given her beef RMB chunks a couple times a week since she was about 3 months old, and the last month or so she's also gotten a chicken neck (she chews them) about 5 times a week, and has had turkey neck before as well.

Since she has had tastes of both turkey and chicken, should she be ok with starting on both, or is it really really recommended that I just feed once source of protein? She also loves chicken eggs, shell and all. When would it be recommended to add that in as a regular part of her diet?

I know most people start with chicken; what is a common next source? Also when is it recommended to start adding organs?

She is 9 months old, 40 lbs, Siberian Husky. I plan on feeding her about 1/2lb am and pm.


----------



## MagicRe

the way i was taught was chicken backs, then chicken backs plus meaty chicken
then
turkey necks plus chicken and turkey plus chicken backs
then pork plus chicken backs (i used chicken as my base protein)
then pork ribs plus chicken 
then fish plus chicken backs
then beef plus chicken backs
and then it's endless, but always using chicken as your base...there is llama, and rabbit, and goat and venison and bison and all kinds of stuff, especially depending on what you can find.....if there are distributors or there is a co op where you are....and international ethnic places...etc..

any time i intro'd a new protein, i'd use chicken as the base source, so that i would know what would cause a problem.....

once i got to beef, after a few weeks or so, then i would start over.....and only after the second round did i start mixing and matching...or feeding whatever fell out of the freezer...because it's balance over time....

during that second round, i would give thumb nailed size pieces of liver to introduce..and as my dogs got used to liver, i then increased the size until it was 5% of their diets. after that, i intro'd kidney....i have a tough time finding other offal, so they have never gotten pancreas or spleen...well they will, because i finally got lamb lungs....

any time i ran into a problem i just went back to chicken for 24 hours....

in the beginning, there's a whole lot of adapting to do.....a full pound a day for a forty pound dog might be a wee too much to start out with....when i do the math on your girl, i come up with 12.8 oz per day.....i know she's still growing.....and you can always increase your amounts...but in the beginning, less is more....slow is best.....

i'd lay off the eggs until she's fully transitioned....and then every one has their own opinion about that. my kids get them once a week. some feed them every day.....

even though she's had this stuff before, she's never had it on a regular basis, so her teeth, gums, mouth, jaw and neck have to have time to adapt and get stronger.....her digestive juices are going to change and that's why it's recommended to go slowly.....

good luck to you. your girl is gaw-jus....

week ending 11/21

we're going away for thanksgiving, so i can't even begin to say what i've forgotten to do....
limited menu for my kids 

venison heart
chicken thigh
beef
beef rib
bison kidney
beef liver
pork roast
smelt
egg


----------



## Sibe

Thank you!
Also, I feel like this is a dumb question, but where do you guys feed your dogs? I'd imagine outside is best? Though she obviously doesn't care and thinks it's the best thing ever, standing out in cold weather and snow and potentially a blizzard is not my ideal conditions to be monitoring her eat. I was thinking a plastic mat or something can I can easily wash. And I assume it's important to wash whatever surface after every single meal, just using soap and water and not harsh chemicals?

Sorry for all the noob questions!


----------



## MagicRe

Sibe said:


> Thank you!
> Also, I feel like this is a dumb question, but where do you guys feed your dogs? I'd imagine outside is best? Though she obviously doesn't care and thinks it's the best thing ever, standing out in cold weather and snow and potentially a blizzard is not my ideal conditions to be monitoring her eat. I was thinking a plastic mat or something can I can easily wash. And I assume it's important to wash whatever surface after every single meal, just using soap and water and not harsh chemicals?
> 
> Sorry for all the noob questions!


everybody has their own level of germiness and what's acceptable and what isn't.

my dogs have their own cutting board which sits on my kitchen counter. they have their own scissors, carving knife and cleaver.

i trained them to eat on a towel in my kitchen and i fold it on itself until it gets gross and then i wash it like i wash clothes.

when i fed them outside, even though we don't get a lot of bugs, the fat from the food ruined the grass by clogging it and drew flies.

this way, for me, allows me to watch them eat, since i have a stupid eater....meaning he eats too fast and they keep their food on the towel....

i wipe my counters with clorox wipes, my hands with soap and water and that's that.


----------



## Sibe

I could not find any backs today but found quarters on sale for $0.69/lb. Any issue with using those instead of backs to start? New plan is to keep her on those if it shouldn't be an issue, and start doing the turkey necks next week in the evenings depending on how she's doing.


----------



## Elisabeth

Elisabeth said:


> Posted below is an example of what Stark eats in a weeks time. Stark is 9 almost 10 months old, 77.6lbs and extremely active. He gets about 2lbs of meat, bone and organ per day.
> 
> *Monday*
> 
> RBM(1lbs): Turkey neck
> 
> MM(14.4ounces): Ground beef
> 
> OM(1.6ounces):Chicken liver
> 
> *Tuesday*
> 
> RBM(1lbs): Chicken backs
> 
> MM(14.4ounces): Ground lamb
> 
> OM(1.6ounces): Beef liver
> 
> *Wednesday*
> 
> RBM(1lbs): Whole fish - Talipia
> 
> MM(14.4ounces): Chicken gizzards and turkey hearts
> 
> OM(1.6ounces): Chicken liver
> *
> Thursday*
> 
> RBM(1lbs): Turkey wings
> 
> MM(14.4ounces): Pork heart
> 
> OM(1.6ounces): Beef liver
> 
> *Friday*
> 
> RBM(1lbs): Rabbit (whole)
> 
> MM(14.4ounces - possibly less dependant on size of rabbit): Chicken breast
> 
> OM(1.6ounces - possibly less dependant on size of rabbit): Chicken liver
> 
> *Saturday*
> 
> RBM(1lbs): Turkey necks
> 
> MM(14.4ounces): venison/deer
> 
> OM(1.6ounces): Beef liver
> 
> *Sunday*
> 
> RBM(1lbs): Beef neck bones
> 
> MM(14.4ounces): Chicken breast
> 
> OM(1.6ounces): Chicken liver
> 
> 
> I typically feed my MM and OM together and then have my RBM as a seperate meal.
> 
> I do add in other meats but this is a "typical" menu plan for a "typical" week.


I have changed up my way of doing things and thought I would post.

Stark who is now 19 months old is getting about 3lbs of raw per day. He eats in one sitting, which is his choosing, not mine. After almost 10 month of him not eating his morning meals I caved and give him his meal in the evening. He is able to rest before and after for a longer period (prevent bloat and digestive issues) and seems to be doing well. He is actually hungry now and is a good eater.

He is an extremely active young male (schH, agility, biking, and play dates every day plus walks and hikes through out the week).

RBM (50%) - 1.25lbs
MM (45%) - 1.12lbs
OM (5%) - 0.63 ounces

Proteins given on a regular basis:

*chicken
-quarters, backs, wings, necks, boneless breast or ground, gizzards

*beef
- ground beef, necks, tounge, ribs

*pork
- chops, necks, ribs, tenderloin

*turkey
- quarters, backs, wings, necks (usually the Tom's), boneless breast or ground, gizzards

*rabbit (hunted and farmed)
-whole 

*fish
- whole (minus the fins and scales - if I am feeling up to scaling it..lol), talpia

*buffalo (farmed)
- ground, tripe, tounge

*venison (hunted)
- cuts vary on what the hunter keeps and will get rid of 

*ostrich (farmed)
- cuts vary but usually it is ground meat

Organ meats:

- beef liver
- chicken liver
- beef kidney

Extra's:

- whole raw eggs (usually 3-5 per week)
- Vit. C (2000mg per day for maintance)
- Cottage cheese for those intense training days


----------



## ben46valdez

A dog on a raw diet will need a variety of different meats in order to reap the benefits that each protein provides; for example one type of meat may be higher in iron, while another may be higher in vitamin A. This is why a rotating diet is recommended in order to maintain a healthy raw diet.
Here is a list of some items your dog can try:
Chicken - whole or any parts! (backs, necks, wings, etc.)
Turkey - whole or any parts (wings, necks, etc.)
Cornish game hens (whole)
Beef (any cuts)
Oxtail
Pork (necks, ribs, any cuts)
Rabbit
Fish (canned sardines in WATER, not oil, or Jack mackerel)
Quail
Buffalo, kangaroo- almost anything you can think of!
Also, your dog does need organ meat, for its high nutrient content- feed liver or kidney as 10% of their diet.


----------



## MagicRe

week ending 11/27 --

monday
a.m. venison heart
p.m. pork ribs

tuesday
a.m. bottom round roast
p.m. lamb roast

wednesday

a.m. turkey gizzards
p.m. whole egg, smelt, tripe w/trachea and gullet

thursday
a.m. chicken back with neck
p.m. pork roast

friday
a.m. tripe with gullet and trachea/ lamb tongue
p.m. beef roast

saturday
a.m. lamb ribs
p.m. turkey gizzards

sunday
a.m. bison roast
p.m. smelt/ tripe/ lamb lung

other offal during the week
bison liver
lamb kidney
lamb lung


----------



## Goody Girl

Green Tripe is a great thing to feed your dogs too. It is kind of gross but I only feed it once or twice a month. I take them outside and I have the tripe on a tray (baking sheets dedicated to them) and they love it! And its full of nutrition they need.


----------



## Sibe

Planning for next week, should I tweak anything? All she has had regularly is chicken quarters and turkey necks. The beef and liver is new. I'm giving her a bit of ground beef and a tiny bit of liver tonight (Thursday) along with a smaller piece from a chicken quarter. Liver piece with meals next week will be about thumbnail sized. She's had egg before but not consistently, should I wait with it?

AM will be chicken quarter every day, plan for PM as follows.

Sun: Ground beef, Beef liver
Mon: Chicken quarter
Tues: Turkey neck, egg
Wed: Turkey neck
Thurs: Ground beef, Beef liver
Fri: Chicken quarter
Sat: Turkey neck, egg


----------



## Kathyy

Sibe said:


> Planning for next week, should I tweak anything? All she has had regularly is chicken quarters and turkey necks. The beef and liver is new. I'm giving her a bit of ground beef and a tiny bit of liver tonight (Thursday) along with a smaller piece from a chicken quarter. Liver piece with meals next week will be about thumbnail sized. She's had egg before but not consistently, should I wait with it?
> 
> AM will be chicken quarter every day, plan for PM as follows.
> 
> Sun: Ground beef, Beef liver
> Mon: Chicken quarter
> Tues: Turkey neck, egg
> Wed: Turkey neck
> Thurs: Ground beef, Beef liver
> Fri: Chicken quarter
> Sat: Turkey neck, egg


Feed the liver with the bony meal and maybe the first day use half of what you are planning and more next time especially since beef is new too. I wouldn't start ground beef or egg the same week as I start liver. Choose one!

This week Max got a turkey wing, a carton of ostrich trim, chicken feet with some organ mix, another of ground beef and organ mx and tomorrow he is getting chicken neck/head, gizzards and liver. I arrange the meals by alternate days of larger bony with organ meals with smaller boneless meals.
#1 Turkey wing+organ mix+ostrich trim ~20 ounces
#2 Ostrich trim ~ 8 ounces
#3 Ostrich trim+chicken foot ~10 ounces
#4 Ground beef ~ 8 ounces
#5 Ground beef+chicken foot ~ 10 ounces
#6 Chicken head/neck+chicken liver+chicken gizzard ~ 12 ounces
#7 Chicken gizzards ~ 8 ounces


----------



## MagicRe

i agree with kathyy....

what worked for us was introducing each protein with chicken, since we knew the dogs were okay with chicken...

and we'd do it for a week and watch stools and the dog's general well being...

if all goes well....then we'd intro another protein.

i like how you're just giving thumbnail sized pieces of liver to start....liver can be tricky..

even now, our dogs get 'vitamins' in the form of the appropriate amount of liver, along with another organ such as kidney.....and of course, the effervescent salmon oil gelcap.

this week malia and bubba got: (they are very jealous of the ostrich trim and want to live with you, kathyy)
turkey ( cut off the leg - neither of my dogs can eat the bone)
turkey wing
bison liver, turkey liver, lamb kidney -divided into seven days and they get them daily....
salmon oil gel cap
lamb lung
egg
venison heart
beef
pork ribs
chicken drumstick


----------



## Sibe

Thanks for the tips. Once she is used to liver, how big of a piece and how often do you (general 'you') feed it?


----------



## MagicRe

Sibe said:


> Thanks for the tips. Once she is used to liver, how big of a piece and how often do you (general 'you') feed it?


i don't know how others do it, but we get up at 4 a.m., so my dogs get an approximation of a cube of somebody's liver....and either kidney or pancreas or spleen for the other cube...

over a period of seven days, it accounts for about 10% of their menu, but it's an approximation...it's the one thing i don't weigh, but i do include it in their daily portion....so if bubba eats 70 oz per week....ten percent of that is 7 oz....so every day, he gets about an ounce of offal....1/2 oz of liver, 1/2 ounce of kidney or some other offal....

other people feed it weekly....or a few times a week....

i like doing it this way because they also get their salmon oil gelcaps and it's like taking vitamins....they don't eat much before 7 a.m. or so, so there's a three hour wait time for them...

how much does lily weigh?


----------



## MagicRe

this week:

malia got a turkey thigh, since we bought a whole turkey and i deconstructed all by myself. i find that she has trouble with the thigh bones
of turkey....even though she certainly has the teeth for it...so i think turkey is not what we will use in the future for bone needs...

both dogs also got beef tongue.....now, THAT'S fun to watch them eat....rubbery and tough...gives them a good workout.

also, their usual
beef
pork ribs
egg
smelts
tripe with trachea and gullet
lamb
chicken frame
lamb kidney
beef liver


----------



## LazyGRanch713

MagicRe said:


> this week:
> 
> malia got a turkey thigh, since we bought a whole turkey and i deconstructed all by myself. i find that she has trouble with the thigh bones
> of turkey....even though she certainly has the teeth for it...so i think turkey is not what we will use in the future for bone needs...
> 
> *both dogs also got beef tongue.....now, THAT'S fun to watch them eat....rubbery and tough...gives them a good workout.*
> 
> also, their usual
> beef
> pork ribs
> egg
> smelts
> tripe with trachea and gullet
> lamb
> chicken frame
> lamb kidney
> beef liver


I gave Auz a pigs foot (nasty looking) a few nights ago, it took him a half hour to chomp through it! I think he felt like he had ran a marathon afterwards...


----------



## MagicRe

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I gave Auz a pigs foot (nasty looking) a few nights ago, it took him a half hour to chomp through it! I think he felt like he had ran a marathon afterwards...


it's such a hoot to watch them wriggle and position themselves to get each edible bite....from whatever they are being fed..

my corgi lays down.....my pug has his bottom in the air, food stuck between his toes....he flips his food around....

they love pig feet....since they're small dogs....they don't get it as often as some, because the fat content is out of whack for their respective sizes...but they sure do like them


----------



## MagicRe

since my last posting....

bubba and malia have eaten:

beef tongue
lamb
pork ribs
tripe + trachea
rabbit
eggs
smelts
bison liver
pork kidney
pork shoulder
chicken frames
beef
lamb lung
lamb trachea
venison heart

i think that's ten days, not just a week, lest it seem like they were feasting : )


----------



## Sibe

Still getting part of a chicken quarter every morning, and I rotate everything else
Currently in the freezer:

Ground beef and liver
Turkey neck and giblets
Pork shoulder
Cornish game hen
Llama
She also gets a whole egg twice a week

*The llama is new this week! It was a steal at about $0.85/lb for an entire half of the animal (estimated about 180lbs), and I now have shelves and shelves of all kind of llama goodies that should last me about 2 years. It's an entire half (as in right/left half, not front/back) including meat, organs (pancreas, lung, heart, kidney, liver), tripe, and bones. Even the feet! I could have gotten the head thrown in too but didn't fancy the mess, and I think the head is the ONE part that would make me sad to see her chew on.


----------



## MagicRe

my dogs also love llama.....what you got was a SCORE!!!

i pay 2.00/lb....for llama...and don't get the organs....

i don't think i could feed heads either....i haven't evolved to that point yet...and i too would be sad, i think.


----------



## Kathyy

I was seriously considering smearing vaseline on the bottom half of my glasses when I gave Max the llama head. I loved his reaction but sure hated looking at the thing. It is an incredible meal for him and I will buy as many heads as I can in the future.

That is a wonderful score, your dog is so lucky!

Okay, back to the subject.
This week Max got 
One whole chicken back, 2 necks, 1 head, many gizzards, 1 foot, 1 heart and several livers
Pork shoulder meat
Beef tripe
Sardine/rabbit organ and head grind

Last week was mostly a whole fetal lamb that lasted 5 days

Next week will be venison bone, beef organ mix and either ground beef or beef tripe


----------



## MagicRe

kathyy....i could NOT have fed that llama head....kudos to you for doing it....it's so very good for them...

this week, we discovered our dogs' fur is thinning out....in looking at their diet, i'm thinking they do not get enough fat, so will have to
work on that.

but they have gotten:

goat
rabbit
beef tongue
beef
venison heart
lamb
sardines
pork kidney/bison liver
venison ribs


----------



## MagicRe

we've been to the vet. we've read until i'm blind and cannot find any good reason for why our dogs' fur is thinning out...bellies and armpits, mostly...but also chest on the pug.

the only thing i can think of, since their transition was so rough, is that i didn't add in enough fat, which we are not doing....

if anyone else has an idea.....they've had senior lab panels which are so wonderful my vet is now looking into raw, they are double coated, high shedders who aren't as rich feeling, but still shiny....nothing in their life has changed, other than laying on a towel to eat their food...and we wash said towel when it's disgusting....

at any rate, their diet this week:

venison bones for play
goat
turkey butt
lamb with fat
lamb kidney/bison liver
venison heart
beef roast
egg yolks
pork roast (shoulder)
sardine and smelt


----------



## ioreks_mom

i just started iorek on dermoscent essential 6. i wonder if that would help your guys with their hair loss? it is for skin and hair health. i hope you figure it out soon!


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> i just started iorek on dermoscent essential 6. i wonder if that would help your guys with their hair loss? it is for skin and hair health. i hope you figure it out soon!


thanks, mindy....i'm thinking it's diet....they are both so shiny....just not as thick with some missing hair under their arms and bellies and chests...it's a conundrum.


----------



## ioreks_mom

MagicRe said:


> thanks, mindy....i'm thinking it's diet....they are both so shiny....just not as thick with some missing hair under their arms and bellies and chests...it's a conundrum.


no problem  i am trying it for iorek's "allergies". i have been told that it has been very successful for most of the dogs that go on it.

(iorek is so shiny he sparkles  don't you just love the raw diet!)


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> no problem  i am trying it for iorek's "allergies". i have been told that it has been very successful for most of the dogs that go on it.
> 
> (iorek is so shiny he sparkles  don't you just love the raw diet!)


since iorek is the guinea pig...how's it working on the allergies? : )


----------



## ioreks_mom

we only put 2 applications on so far. i am hoping that after a few more weeks we will see a change. covertune is using it on george. i asked about it in the dog health section and she has a blog set up to track his progress. i can see improvement in his fur in the pictures she has posted. you just reminded me to check it out again for any updates!


----------



## Nargle

I've fed Basil raw off and on, but I'm officially switching him to an all raw diet! :biggrin1: I've decided to do prey model raw.

This week he's getting an entire small chicken, complete with the organs that came inside (Liver and kidneys, plus heart and gizzard, which count as muscle meat, correct?) I found whole chickens on sale for $0.69 per pound, so I got several chickens, lol! One of the chickens I got is 6 lbs, which should last him two weeks! I also got some beef liver, beef heart, and whole smelt fish for the upcoming weeks. I'm thinking of getting some tripe and whole tilapia, too.


----------



## ioreks_mom

wow! 69 cents/lb! so lucky! i can't get chicken for cheaper than 1.30/lb and that is only miscut legs with the back attached. that works out great for the boys since there are organs attached. if i was to buy a whole chicken i can't get it for less than $2/lb and that is on sale. i can't get a 3 lb chicken for less than $6 on sale, i can't even look at them if they are not on sale. it is more than $10 for a 3 lb chicken usually (the dogs eat 1.5 lb each a day). they hardly ever have whole chickens on sale for $2/lb.  meat is so expensive in canada


----------



## Nargle

I wonder how that translates into US money? Plus I live in Texas, and things are relatively cheap here. 

Oh, and this will really shock you, but there were also big bags of chicken drumsticks for $0.49 per pound.... :biggrin1: I didn't get them because the whole chickens were still a really good deal, so why not?

BTW, I determined that in order for raw to be cheaper than the kibble I feed Basil, the meat I buy should be on average under $1 per pound, and so far it's going pretty well!


----------



## ioreks_mom

the canadian dollar is worth more than the american dollar now so it would cost more. to keep the cost of feeding my boys within our budget i try not to buy any meat that is more than $2/b. that still works out to $3/day to feed them.  expensive!! but with kibble i was paying almost $90/bag that lasted only 2 1/2 weeks.


----------



## MagicRe

have you started yet? how is basil doing? even with organs so soon in the game? congrats for going raw.....let us know...

heart and gizzard are muscle meats but richer....so is lung....

tripe. good stuff..

heart. good stuff. my dogs act like they're on crack when they get heart.

let's see. what did my dogs eat this week?

they had:

beef gullets
lamb necks
goat
venison ribs
venison heart
turkey 
lamb
beef ribs
trachea
tripe with trachea and gullet


----------



## Loki Love

ioreks_mom said:


> the canadian dollar is worth more than the american dollar now so it would cost more. to keep the cost of feeding my boys within our budget i try not to buy any meat that is more than $2/b. that still works out to $3/day to feed them.  expensive!! but with kibble i was paying almost $90/bag that lasted only 2 1/2 weeks.


Watch your flyers - I've seen whole chickens go to 0.99/lb, and you can sometimes get pork for that same price. We have found a supplier that gets us chicken quarters for 1.25/lb but it took a lot of phone calls and lots of patience to find them. 

We try to keep the meat at around 1.50/lb. We will never find beef for that price, which is why finding deals at 0.99/lb helps to compensate when we go over what we would like to spend.

Hang in there - you will start finding those good deals!  (BTW - we're in Montreal)


----------



## ioreks_mom

Loki Love said:


> Watch your flyers - I've seen whole chickens go to 0.99/lb, and you can sometimes get pork for that same price. We have found a supplier that gets us chicken quarters for 1.25/lb but it took a lot of phone calls and lots of patience to find them.
> 
> We try to keep the meat at around 1.50/lb. We will never find beef for that price, which is why finding deals at 0.99/lb helps to compensate when we go over what we would like to spend.
> 
> Hang in there - you will start finding those good deals!  (BTW - we're in Montreal)


i do watch the flyers  i live in a SMALL town (1200 people) off the beaten track (about 70 km off the TCH) in newfoundland, we don't get deals often. it is too far to ship and too few people buying to get good deals  i just found out recently that there is an abattoir that does beef that is a 2 hour drive away. we also know of a guy who raises and butchers pork but i can't find his number anywhere (we can't seem to find anyone who knows his name). we are still working on it.


----------



## Nargle

MagicRe said:


> have you started yet? how is basil doing? even with organs so soon in the game? congrats for going raw.....let us know...
> 
> heart and gizzard are muscle meats but richer....so is lung....
> 
> tripe. good stuff..
> 
> heart. good stuff. my dogs act like they're on crack when they get heart.
> 
> let's see. what did my dogs eat this week?
> 
> they had:
> 
> beef gullets
> lamb necks
> goat
> venison ribs
> venison heart
> turkey
> lamb
> beef ribs
> trachea
> tripe with trachea and gullet


We've fed Basil raw off and on for some time, so organs are nothing new, but this is the first time we're going 100% raw! He's doing well, but I think the smelt fish made him sick  He wasn't sure about eating it and after he did he threw up. I'm going to see how he does for a few days on chicken only. I haven't tried a lot of red meat yet but I hope to do so in the future!


----------



## MagicRe

try giving him tiny pieces of fish or freeze them....my dogs eat fish-cicles....: )


----------



## ioreks_mom

iorek would problems with fish repeating on him the next day but what we did was give him a smaller amount for a few weeks (he only gets fish once a week) and that helps. he really loves fish. brom, otoh, really seems to not like the fish. poor guy. usually brom is finished eating and waiting to clean up after iorek but with fish iorek is the one finished and waiting to clean up after brom. i have started cutting the fins off and the tail because brom really hates them. it helps for him. also cutting it up into smaller pieces helps. they are eating whole mackerels, well, with the fins and tail removed.


----------



## Nargle

Basil really likes tilapia, cod and trout (though I've recently learned about salmon poisoning disease and will stop giving him raw trout) but I think there might have been something wrong with the smelt I gave him, lol! He's never refused fish before. I feel really bad for putting plain yoghurt on it to entice him to eat it because I think it made him sick!  

I think I'll get some tilapia instead next time.


----------



## MagicRe

Nargle said:


> Basil really likes tilapia, cod and trout (though I've recently learned about salmon poisoning disease and will stop giving him raw trout) but I think there might have been something wrong with the smelt I gave him, lol! He's never refused fish before. I feel really bad for putting plain yoghurt on it to entice him to eat it because I think it made him sick!
> 
> I think I'll get some tilapia instead next time.


i think it's pacific northwest trout and salmon that has the parasite. 

sardines, anchovies.....mackerel...

tilapia is a farmed fish and doesn't have the bang of goodies that other fish have....if it's cheap, it comes from china....or thailand or vietnam....if it's not cheap, it's farmed in the usa.


----------



## Kathyy

This week Max got 
Pork neck
Beef organ mix
Chicken feet
Turkey neck, gizzard, liver and heart
Ground beef
Canned sardines
Ground sardine and rabbit head and gut mix
Green tripe
Bits of cooked chicken breast and beef liver jerky for treats


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> we only put 2 applications on so far. i am hoping that after a few more weeks we will see a change. covertune is using it on george. i asked about it in the dog health section and she has a blog set up to track his progress. i can see improvement in his fur in the pictures she has posted. you just reminded me to check it out again for any updates!


hey, mindy....are you seeing any results yet?

you'll be happy to know my dogs' hair is growing back....i don't know if it's the salmon oil which we stopped or the dietary fat which we finally added, but hair is growing all over the place....

they had such a rocky beginning, i was leaning toward really lean cuts of meat....and i think it finally took its toll....plus i read on a gsd forum that not all salmon oils agree with dogs....so i stopped giving it to them...

but now? i figure it will take another month, but they are back to shedding as usual and i can barely see their skin...


----------



## ioreks_mom

that is great news that your pups are getting their fur back!  yay!

i still don't notice much of a difference with iorek. we just put on the 4th application yesterday. they said that most people don't notice a big difference until after week 8. so, 1/2 way there. i think that he may be scratching less but i have to give it more time.


----------



## MagicRe

i hope finally, you've found a solution......especially after all this time....you've certainly done your due diligence.

this week, my dogs ate:

lamb necks
sardine - fresh, not canned
beef
beef rib
chicken frame
goat
lamb
lamb tongue
beef gullet
pork
beef liver
lamb kidney
chicken feet


----------



## ioreks_mom

thank you  for iorek's sake i hope that it works.


----------



## Altari

Chicken leg quarters
Turkey/chicken neck
Trimmed beef or pork scraps from roasts or steaks

If someone could give some advice on HOW to get the pup to eat organ meats, I'd REALLY appreciate it. He turns his nose up at chicken livers, and I have no place to get anything-else liver around here. He's pretty picky about his raw food - he won't eat fish, either, but he does love a few raw pieces of side pork.


----------



## Kathyy

In a pinch buy the freeze dried liver at the pet store but chicken livers aren't good enough as an organ source by themselves anyway.

Max adores liver and always has so this hasn't been necessary here. 

Cook it then cook less and less
Puree it and put a drop a day on his food, increase the "gravy" until you think it is fine and dandy then try chunks.
Serve frozen.
Open dog's mouth, shove down throat.

If you are feeding pastured, grass fed meat don't worry about fish at all. Use fish oil supplements if needed. Done. Max liked his rolled in a little peanut butter and now he doesn't get supplements every day he misses his peanut butter treat!

This week Max got
Pork bony chunk
Beef organ mix
Chicken feet
Turkey winglet
Ground beef
Beef round steak
Venison ribs
Ground sardine and rabbit head and gut mix
Green tripe


----------



## Poxgoo

I'm going to research more into this, sounds very interesting. Thanks for posting all your 'recipes'!


----------



## MagicRe

Altari said:


> Chicken leg quarters
> Turkey/chicken neck
> Trimmed beef or pork scraps from roasts or steaks
> 
> If someone could give some advice on HOW to get the pup to eat organ meats, I'd REALLY appreciate it. He turns his nose up at chicken livers, and I have no place to get anything-else liver around here. He's pretty picky about his raw food - he won't eat fish, either, but he does love a few raw pieces of side pork.


whenever i get liver from any source, i cut it into pieces appropriate to their size to give as a daily treat. kind of like vitamins, which liver is. then i freeze them....another person i know, bumblegoat, i believe, cuts liver into cubes and puts them into an ice cube tray, very clever....

i just total what my dog should eat for the week, let's say 70 ounces and figure that 5% should be liver, so that's 3.5 oz per week, then i divvy that into 7 days and i think it comes out to about a 1/2 oz a day. i combine that with either kidney or spleen as the other 5% and they get frozen tiny treats daily....

it took a little urging in the beginning, but now they think it's their g'd given right to have treats in the morning when they awaken. : )


----------



## MagicRe

this week, ending 2/28/11:

bison liver
lamb kidney
lamb necks
lamb lung
beef
venison heart
mackerel
chicken frame
chicken feet for fun
pork picnic roast


----------



## MagicRe

this week my dogs had:
venison heart
goat ribs
goat meat
lamb tongue
beef
pork
mackerel
lamb neck
bison liver
lamb kidney


----------



## MagicRe

does anyone feed their dog kelp meal?
and just to say woo hoo that we're getting more venison AND emu.....num. num.

this week my doggies had:

sardines
chicken frames
beef liver
lamb kidney
lamb necks - they can't eat the bone, but they sure do eat all the meat off...gives them a nice workout
pork ribs
pork picnic roast
grass fed beef
venison heart
egg - no shell
goat


----------



## ioreks_mom

i was giving my dogs alfalfa and kelp as a supplement but was told i should stop because alfalfa is an allergen in many dogs. i don't know what it is specifically for but the person with the raw food company i used to buy from suggested it. (i really should have done more research, i guess :redface


----------



## MagicRe

this week my dogs had:

mackerel
goat
beef
pork
chicken frame
chicken feet
lamb neck
goat ribs
egg with cumin and turmeric
lamb liver
lamb kidney
lamb heart.

we're getting a delivery of venison next week....and at the end of the month, we are getting emu --- woo hoo.


----------



## CCretarolo

I just switched Starbuck over to raw a few days ago but I'm already giving him quite a bit of variety.

He's already had:

Chicken (quarters and neck)
Chicken heart
Duck heart
Pork snout
Chicken feet
Chicken liver
Pork shank and feet
Whole egg

I'm going to be giving him his first whole fish (large sardine) tomorrow or Tuesday. I also have some pork kidney, beef, pork neck bones, and various other goodies stashed away in the freezer for him. 

Although I'm new to feeding dogs raw, I was a raw feeder for about 2 years with the cats and ferrets I used to own. I was originally going to wait a couple of weeks after adopting him to make the switch... but Starbuck is a 20 lb Min Pin so the wait seemed a bit silly to me... Plus he wouldn't touch his kibble after he got his first raw meal.


----------



## ioreks_mom

i hope that he is able to handle all that variety so fast. :S


----------



## CCretarolo

He's actually doing really well. He had some runny stools but that stopped when I started giving him acidophilus with every meal. I'm going to give him another 1-2 weeks before I start giving him any red meat though. Overall, he's very healthy except for his weight. And I have a feeling that won't be a long term issue since he's very active and loves racing through the house even right after his walks! His previous owners helped him lose some of the extra weight but I'm estimating that he still needs to lose around 7 pounds.


----------



## MagicRe

CCretarolo said:


> I just switched Starbuck over to raw a few days ago but I'm already giving him quite a bit of variety.
> 
> He's already had:
> 
> Chicken (quarters and neck)
> Chicken heart
> Duck heart
> Pork snout
> Chicken feet
> Chicken liver
> Pork shank and feet
> Whole egg
> 
> I'm going to be giving him his first whole fish (large sardine) tomorrow or Tuesday. I also have some pork kidney, beef, pork neck bones, and various other goodies stashed away in the freezer for him.
> 
> Although I'm new to feeding dogs raw, I was a raw feeder for about 2 years with the cats and ferrets I used to own. I was originally going to wait a couple of weeks after adopting him to make the switch... but Starbuck is a 20 lb Min Pin so the wait seemed a bit silly to me... Plus he wouldn't touch his kibble after he got his first raw meal.



how are his bowels? 

and welcome to raw....



CCretarolo said:


> He's actually doing really well. He had some runny stools but that stopped when I started giving him acidophilus with every meal. I'm going to give him another 1-2 weeks before I start giving him any red meat though. Overall, he's very healthy except for his weight. And I have a feeling that won't be a long term issue since he's very active and loves racing through the house even right after his walks! His previous owners helped him lose some of the extra weight but I'm estimating that he still needs to lose around 7 pounds.


he shouldn't need acidophilus, as it will change the pH in his stomach. have you considered slowing down the introduction of proteins to one by one per two weeks?


----------



## CCretarolo

Hmmm... That's definitely something to think about. I may just go down to chicken and duck for the next week then reintroduce pork. I would just do chicken... but I wasn't thinking much when I bagged up his meals and mixed the chicken and duck hearts together. Since I only give heart meat on days when he's getting very bony RMB's, I'm hoping that it won't effect him too much.


----------



## MagicRe

week ending 4/10

goat
goat leg bone
tripe with trachea and beef gullet
lamb trachea
chicken frame
beef
pork
venison
venison heart
egg without white
sardine


----------



## CCretarolo

I don't think that him refusing to eat anything will be an issue. So far, he's enthusiastically eaten everything I've given him. And if I do find that he's adverse to something... my sister feeds her ferrets raw so I'm sure she'll be more then happy to take anything I can't use. 

I currently only have chicken and duck thawing out so I'll just have to reorganize my freezer so the pork, beef, and fish is at the back. Thankfully, I labeled everything clearly so that won't be an issue... I learned about labeling the hard way when I accidentally gave my ferrets too much heart meat in a week... Litter box cleanup was horrible for a day or so.


----------



## MagicRe

CCretarolo said:


> I don't think that him refusing to eat anything will be an issue. So far, he's enthusiastically eaten everything I've given him. And if I do find that he's adverse to something... my sister feeds her ferrets raw so I'm sure she'll be more then happy to take anything I can't use.
> 
> I currently only have chicken and duck thawing out so I'll just have to reorganize my freezer so the pork, beef, and fish is at the back. Thankfully, I labeled everything clearly so that won't be an issue... I learned about labeling the hard way when I accidentally gave my ferrets too much heart meat in a week... Litter box cleanup was horrible for a day or so.


i don't think so either..i just brought it up because it can be an issue that we don't think about. but i think you have it together..and then once he transitions completely, then you can mix and match.....

have fun and i know your dog will.


----------



## CCretarolo

Thanks! I know that he's already loving his raw. For the first day or so after I got him, he only ate when he was starving... Since the switch, he starts dancing when I pick up his food plate.


----------



## Kathyy

Lucky Starbuck! He sure landed in a good place.

Rabbit head, chicken liver and beef organ mix for organ
Rabbit head, pork neck and chicken neck and feet for bone
Sardines for more omega 3
Egg is just good for him
Loads of beef this week, trim/round/hamburger


----------



## MagicRe

CCretarolo said:


> Thanks! I know that he's already loving his raw. For the first day or so after I got him, he only ate when he was starving... Since the switch, he starts dancing when I pick up his food plate.


how's your transition going?

have you thought about joining our co op? we are six hundred members strong and we buy food in bulk....it affords us a wide variety of protein from local farmers in washington and oregon....

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WAzzuOR_BARF/ ( i hope the mods don't mind. this is not a forum. it's a food co op)


----------



## MagicRe

here is what my kids have been eating these past few weeks...

emu oil
rabbit
venison
venison heart
lamb neck - whole
pork ribs
pork picnic roast
chicken drum strick
beef
beef liver
lamb kidney
goat
goat ribs
sardine


----------



## Sibe

Having moved back to San Diego, I now have a tiny freezer and not a giant one so the menu has been more limited until I get through more llama and have room for variety. We also move in a few months and I am getting a freezer for meat. The past few weeks:

Chicken quarters
Turkey neck
Llama neck chunk
Llama ribs
Llama liver
Llama lung
Llama heart
Beef heart
Egg x2/week

Also in freezer but haven't fed yet:
Pork arm roast bought the other day
"Llama tummy and poop"
"Llama ewwww wiggly bloody" (I think pancreas)
Llama spleen

We tried salmon when hub bought some for dinner but she was not a fan. She picked at a small piece a little but seemed very unsure. My husband handed her the skin with a little meat on it. She took it in her mouth and went chomp-chomp-FREEZE and mid chomp looked up at him like "Um, EWWW!! That was a mean trick!" And then dropped the skin in my hand. I encouraged her to eat some and she did but really didn't seem to like it. Tilapia was a fail too, maybe she's like me and hates fish!


----------



## Kathyy

Max has had 
Chicken, emu and venison bony bits this week.
Pork, beef trim and ostrich trim for meat.
Chicken liver, beef organ mix and goat/sardine organ mix for organs.


----------



## MagicRe

bubba and malia have had:

pork picnic roast
pork ribs
mackerel
sardines
egg yolk, not the white
tripe
beef
lamb
chicken drumsticks
venison heart
emu oil


----------



## LuckySarah

I have some stupid questions....

I am transitioning my 5 month old puppy (30 pounds now with an expected adult weight of 60)

He has been on chicken only today and yesterday.

Today he ate two chicken thighs (bone in), one chicken drumstick (bone in) and about 1/2 a pound of ground chicken.... Is this enough???
I feel like its a lot of food but IDK, my pup is very lean/active (always has been, when I was feeding kibble I always overfed)

Also he has only had one bowel movement today (it was this morning) and was normal (smaller/darker but firm)
Should I be concerned about that or is this a good thing?


----------



## Kathyy

Best to weigh the food. An adult 60 pound dog would eat 1.2 pounds of meat/bone and eventually organ a day on average.

Poop sounds good but don't get cocky and feed more or move to another protein or even give the usual treats yet. Raw fed poop can be super dinky. Max is 38 pounds and his poop has been about the size of my thumb or smaller for a couple weeks since he has been on fairly even sized meals for a while now. On chicken only poop will get fairly yellow and too firm in time, then you know he is used to the diet and you can start substituting chicken for the next protein.


----------



## LuckySarah

Thanks



For treats is dried liver a good option or is there something else that kind of goes along with the diet.

And for whatever mod that edited the link in my signature it has been already approved by the admin


----------



## MagicRe

LuckySarah said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> For treats is dried liver a good option or is there something else that kind of goes along with the diet.
> 
> And for whatever mod that edited the link in my signature it has been already approved by the admin


i might hold off on the liver treats....for now....until he is fully transitioned to all of the proteins and organs he'll need.

he also looks like he could handle bone in chicken and not minced chicken.....i'd give him quarters and backs....in the beginning whilst he is transitioning, you might keep it a little bone heavy....to keep the stools stable....but only in the beginning....

can you give him dehydrated chicken?


----------



## Sibe

LuckySarah said:


> For treats is dried liver a good option or is there something else that kind of goes along with the diet.


I find that hot dogs are great treats when cut up into little pieces. They are really cheap too! Personally a fan of Bar S brand Turkey dogs.


----------



## LuckySarah

we use treats a lot because we are training for SchH (so we train about 10 hours a week and use a lot of treats lol)

I have been using hot dogs but I didn't know if that would go against the diet or not?
But maybe because he is used to them I will just keep using them until we build up to more proteins 

I thought I was being too heavy with the bone, but it makes sense when starting out, he also tends to swallow the bones whole (which I know is ok but difficult for me to watch lol)
Thanks


----------



## MagicRe

LuckySarah said:


> we use treats a lot because we are training for SchH (so we train about 10 hours a week and use a lot of treats lol)
> 
> I have been using hot dogs but I didn't know if that would go against the diet or not?
> But maybe because he is used to them I will just keep using them until we build up to more proteins
> 
> I thought I was being too heavy with the bone, but it makes sense when starting out, he also tends to swallow the bones whole (which I know is ok but difficult for me to watch lol)
> Thanks


when a dog is transitioning to raw, their entire system goes through changes...my only concern with hot dogs is all the processing they go through and how it will affect your dog in the short and long run.....dehydrated chicken to me is in line with what you're doing and allows your dog's body to make the chemical and physiological changes it needs to make to transition....

as to swallowing bones whole....that's not quite what we want, even though many dogs do it.....it tells me your dog needs bigger bones, which means i would be giving him backs or leg quarters.....so that he learns to gnaw and crunch...a drumstick, apparently, is too small for him.....i can see from his little face that he's got a set of teeth on him : )


----------



## bumblegoat

If you want to stick to raw for treats too, then using something like a refillable tube and fill it with something ground might be an idea. I like using tubes, I have never used refillable ones though. They are easy to use, when you want to give the dog a treat, just squeeze it a bit and let the dog lick it up. 

I found these when I googled, I don't know if they are any good though: http://www.rei.com/product/696007/coghlans-squeeze-tubes-package-of-2

Here is a picture of how you can use it: http://www.vildatassar.se/pastej.jpg
(Not my picture, but the dog is the same breed as my dog, lol)
The tube in the picture is a liver pate that you could buy here in Sweden, and it was very popular to use for dog training. The same thing could be done using a refillable tube.


----------



## MagicRe

what a great idea.....because teaching treadmill....takes many many treats.....especially with my two...that would be perfect. thank you bumblegoat. i am going to order them and try them.

i could probably take chicken and cuisinart it and use that....even if i cooked it, it would be okay. i'm thinking liver might give them the runs, considering how much bubba is a scaredy cat....


----------



## RonE

LuckySarah said:


> And for whatever mod that edited the link in my signature it has been already approved by the admin


Really? Which admin was that?


----------



## LuckySarah

RonE said:


> Really? Which admin was that?


Yung 

ETA you could have probably just IM me to ask but.....

Thanks everyone for the great advice, I will get some larger bone in chicken and I am going to check out the treat options.
Now I just have to break the news to my vet and see if he fires me lol


----------



## MagicRe

LuckySarah said:


> Thanks everyone for the great advice, I will get some larger bone in chicken and I am going to check out the treat options.
> Now I just have to break the news to my vet and see if he fires me lol


how's it going with your dog?


----------



## Kathyy

This past week Max has had
venison ribs
venison neck slice
beef organ mix [cheek/heart/tongue/spleen/liver/kidney]
pork leg meat


----------



## MagicRe

that's a nice mix, kathyy.....the beef organ mix..

this week, malia and bubba got:

goat
lamb ribs
beef
chicken drumsticks
pork picnic roast
venison heart


----------



## RobinF

So, we started on a raw diet a few month ago. We started with chicken with the ground bone. This month we slowly added:
fish with all the bones/guts - both cat and dog go nuts about it
ground beef - love it
cow heart/kidney
ground vegetables (pumpkin, carrots, broccoli)
eggs with crushed eggshells.

For bones I add chicken necks cut in pieces. I am trying to move them to bigger bones.
Now, my question. I would like to give them chicken drumsticks. 

Is the hollow bone inside drumstick safe? 

Are the fish bones safe?

Is crushing egg shells by hand OK or should I ground them?


----------



## MagicRe

RobinF said:


> So, we started on a raw diet a few month ago. We started with chicken with the ground bone. This month we slowly added:
> fish with all the bones/guts - both cat and dog go nuts about it
> ground beef - love it
> cow heart/kidney
> ground vegetables (pumpkin, carrots, broccoli)
> eggs with crushed eggshells.
> 
> For bones I add chicken necks cut in pieces. I am trying to move them to bigger bones.
> Now, my question. I would like to give them chicken drumsticks.
> 
> Is the hollow bone inside drumstick safe?
> 
> Are the fish bones safe?
> 
> Is crushing egg shells by hand OK or should I ground them?


hi and welcome to the world of raw...

i'm a prey model feeder, so i won't comment on the veggies and fruits you've added, only to say that maybe you could research what sugar does to dogs....

as to bones...

my dogs started on chicken backs, graduated to chicken breasts, then turkey necks...and i never ground anything....as they progressed from protein to protein....

they need to learn how to eat and digest bone and if you do all the work for them, they can't learn and strengthen their teeth, gums, mouths, jaws, necks or their digestive systems which has enough acid to burn through your couch.....

try not to be afraid and give them a drumstick since they seem to have stable poops...bones in chicken and goat and lamb and llama and other not too heavy animals are nice and soft, so you don't have to grind it......

and then give them some chicken....

fish is great, especially given whole...the bones are so soft when they are not cooked...

it's cooking that makes bones brittle and that goes for any bone.

you're ready to introduce another protein, such as turkey or pork....pork and pork ribs are wonderful...and the bones are very easily digestible...


just stay away from weight bearing bones, such as cow legs.....and all that that entails....

in a month or so, you can start giving them a little tiny piece of liver to start them getting used to it....about five per cent of their overal diet will be liver from some animal or lots of animals....

our dogs don't much care for liver, so we cut them into daily portions and give them as frozen treats after their morning walk...they get liver and kidney.....


----------



## RobinF

Thank you for replying MagicRe . It is my goal to not grind anything and this is why I am adding the whole bone. They already have chicken liver in their diet although they are not crazy about it . I do not add any fruits and not planning to as of today. The pork ribs are wonderful idea. Thank you.


----------



## MagicRe

RobinF said:


> Thank you for replying MagicRe . It is my goal to not grind anything and this is why I am adding the whole bone. They already have chicken liver in their diet although they are not crazy about it . I do not add any fruits and not planning to as of today. The pork ribs are wonderful idea. Thank you.


forgive me. i have been a little foggy lately....

mine aren't crazy about liver either, which is why we take beef or whatever animal liver we have and kidney, cut them into appropriate daily portions and give them as treats....otherwise, if we put it in their food, they'd never eat it. 

some dogs don't mind liver...ours do...both of them....

you can feed drumsticks, and turkey necks, and pork ribs....and when they are really acclimated, give them beef ribs for recreational bone...they might not be able to eat the bone, but getting the meat off is a super work out for them.

oh, rabbit is something else they'd like, although it's very lean and dogs need fat, unlike us 

have fun and good luck to you.


----------



## RobinF

Thank you .


----------



## MagicRe

this week malia and bubba had:

sardine
rabbit
venison heart
lamb ribs
pork
chicken drumsticks
beef
goat


----------



## KuroSaya

This week Saya had 

Mon May 30: Lamb neck, 1oz beef tongue, and 1oz of beef tripe

Tues May 31: 4oz pork heart

Wed June 1: Lamb kidney and egg

Thurs June 2: Fast day

Fri June 3: 8.73oz of whole quail

sat June 4: Chicken liver

Sun June 5: 6.10oz of ground goat mix(meat/bone/heart, lung, liver, tripe and kidney)


----------



## MagicRe

this week, bubba and malia ate:

cubed lamb liver and bison kidney for their post walk treat

goat + goat ribs
venison heart
beef
chicken drumsticks (for bone)
mackerel
rabbit


----------



## Sibe

Beef heart (new item on the menu, she is LOVING it and it's going to be commonly fed here now because they are cheap and good!)
Chicken qtrs
Turkey drumsticks
Turkey neck
Eggs
Chicken liver
Chicken gizzards
Chicken hearts
Chicken feet
Unidentified llama organ, possibly pancreas

I hate that freezer space is limiting me so much. Can't wait to move and get a big freezer so I can stock up on more variety and not have to go shopping every week getting small quantities. I'm also SUPER bummed to have no more llama except some organ.


----------



## Lucy B

I've been feeding my three dogs raw for a while now
This week Jukes, Bracken and Tessa had

1. Beef brisket
2. Lamb Shank
3. Chicken Backs
4. Goat kidney and goat heart
5. Whole Rabbit
6. Mackerel
7. Beef liver and tongue

Last week they had
1. Whole Duck
2. Venison heart
3. Lamb shank
4. Sardines
5. Goat ribs
6. Beef heart and liver
7. Pork hock and pig feet

I never feed them veg, but I'm considering putting an egg in there, how often do you feed eggs - once a week, once every two weeks and do you put it on their food or seperately, with or without the shell? Sorry for all of the questions, I just don't know anyone else who feeds it, and I'm not sure what to do.


----------



## MagicRe

Sibe said:


> Beef heart (new item on the menu, she is LOVING it and it's going to be commonly fed here now because they are cheap and good!)
> Chicken qtrs
> Turkey drumsticks
> Turkey neck
> Eggs
> Chicken liver
> Chicken gizzards
> Chicken hearts
> Chicken feet
> Unidentified llama organ, possibly pancreas
> 
> I hate that freezer space is limiting me so much. Can't wait to move and get a big freezer so I can stock up on more variety and not have to go shopping every week getting small quantities. I'm also SUPER bummed to have no more llama except some organ.


the downside to a freezer is you fill it all the way up and THEN something interesting comes up


----------



## MagicRe

since 6/6 my dogs have had
venison heart
venison trim from new zealand
goat ribs
goat meat
sardines
beef
beef ribs
pork 
pork ribs
lamb
lamb ribs
rabbit


----------



## Sibe

MagicRe, I'm sure that's exactly what will happen! Regardless, I am excited to be able to bulk buy and not be buying more every single time I go to the grocery store.

I finally found beef kidneys! I should have just asked if I could get them and had them ordered. Oh well. I bought all of them. $1/lb! I now have 7 lbs of kidneys. That should last a little while for one 40lb dog! She was not excited about it, but defrosted wiggly slimy stuff isn't her favorite anyways. It took her a long time to even want to eat chicken skin if it was defrosted enough to be sliding off the meat. She should jump on it when it's frozen.

Same old, same old for the rest of the menu..
chicken quarters
turkey drumsticks
pork arm
beef heart
chicken liver
raw egg
unidentified llama organs


----------



## Kathyy

I rarely remember to feed egg. Max gets it cracked in his dish as he isn't all that thrilled about it. He can lick out the shell through a tiny crack.

Bony meats-
chicken heads
ostrich joint [most of it not eaten]
turkey drumstick
pork leg joint [most of it not eaten]

Boneless meat-
fresh pork ham [rear leg]
beef trim
ostrich trim
egg

Organ -
beef organ mix
sardine/goat organ mix.


----------



## ahmedarafat

fish oil for dogs:

Fish oil is good for dogs !– Veterinarians first used omega-3 fatty acids in the form of fish oil to treat canine allergies but now recommend it for a wide variety of conditions ranging from kidney disease to arthritis and high cholesterol. Adding fish oil to your dog's food provides anti-inflammatory effects and can help relieve itching due to atopic dermatitis, an allergy-related skin condition.
For HELP visit the URL which is given below:
http://www.fishoilfordog.com


----------



## MagicRe

ahmedarafat said:


> fish oil for dogs:
> 
> Fish oil is good for dogs !– Veterinarians first used omega-3 fatty acids in the form of fish oil to treat canine allergies but now recommend it for a wide variety of conditions ranging from kidney disease to arthritis and high cholesterol. Adding fish oil to your dog's food provides anti-inflammatory effects and can help relieve itching due to atopic dermatitis, an allergy-related skin condition.
> For HELP visit the URL which is given below:
> http://www.fishoilfordog.com


your first post is one to sell fish oil? and a mediocre one at that, no offense?

couldn't you have made a hello and a contribution before trying to sell something to people who are just starting out?



Sibe said:


> MagicRe, I'm sure that's exactly what will happen! Regardless, I am excited to be able to bulk buy and not be buying more every single time I go to the grocery store.
> 
> I finally found beef kidneys! I should have just asked if I could get them and had them ordered. Oh well. I bought all of them. $1/lb! I now have 7 lbs of kidneys. That should last a little while for one 40lb dog! She was not excited about it, but defrosted wiggly slimy stuff isn't her favorite anyways. It took her a long time to even want to eat chicken skin if it was defrosted enough to be sliding off the meat. She should jump on it when it's frozen.
> 
> Same old, same old for the rest of the menu..
> chicken quarters
> turkey drumsticks
> pork arm
> beef heart
> chicken liver
> raw egg
> unidentified llama organs


i know what you're saying....we shop bulk because our co op is huge....so in some ways, i'm so fortunate to have great variety, but it is not great on the wallet because there is so much variety. 

although i am jealous that you got unidentified llama organs


----------



## KuroSaya

This week menu is

Sat Jun 11 half can salmon and egg

Sun Jun 12 fast

Mon Jun 13 Whole saury(type of fish) and beef thymus

Tues Jun 14 ground duck mix(meat/bone/gizzard/liver/heart) and chicken foot

Wed Jun 15 ground lamb mix(meat/bone/liver/heart/lung/kidneys) and pork liver

Thur Jun 16 beef tongue

Fri Jun 17 fast

Sat Jun 18 pork shoulder roast 7oz

Sun Jun 19 pork shoulder roast 4oz

Mon Jun 20 pork shoulder roast 4oz and chicken foot

Tues Jun 21 Lamb heart 3.32oz and beef lung 3.06oz


----------



## MagicRe

this is for the past nine days....

bison kidney
lamb liver
lamb necks
goat ( i forget which part. i bought the whole goat and cut it up - i think this is from the hindquarter)
sirloin steak plus fat
sardine (primal ground because i ran out of fish)
pork ribs
pork loin - because hubby put the loin where the ribs should be. oops.
egg
tripe
beef
lamb lung


----------



## Nargle

Basil is getting duck meat and organs this week! :biggrin1:


----------



## Kathyy

This past week Max got 
Pork fresh ham, including the bone
Venison bony bit
Ostrich trim
Ground beef
Sardine/goat organ mix
Beef organ mix
Chicken head/neck and foot
Chicken liver


----------



## Sarayu14

Tonight was:
Pork Chops
1 raw egg each
chicken hearts
1/2 a chicken liver each
and 2 tbsp (aprox.) of tripe
and the girls loved it. Sarayu (the Golden) even tried to steal Shay's (the lab mix) dinner.


----------



## MagicRe

Lucy B said:


> I've been feeding my three dogs raw for a while now
> This week Jukes, Bracken and Tessa had
> 
> 1. Beef brisket
> 2. Lamb Shank
> 3. Chicken Backs
> 4. Goat kidney and goat heart
> 5. Whole Rabbit
> 6. Mackerel
> 7. Beef liver and tongue
> 
> Last week they had
> 1. Whole Duck
> 2. Venison heart
> 3. Lamb shank
> 4. Sardines
> 5. Goat ribs
> 6. Beef heart and liver
> 7. Pork hock and pig feet
> 
> I never feed them veg, but I'm considering putting an egg in there, how often do you feed eggs - once a week, once every two weeks and do you put it on their food or seperately, with or without the shell? Sorry for all of the questions, I just don't know anyone else who feeds it, and I'm not sure what to do.


when i remember, i feed them once a week....they won't eat the shell, so i just give them the egg. they get enough calcium from everything else they need.....you're feeding a great variety...

if you don't mind a suggestion, i'd up the fish rather than introduce eggs....

this week bubba and malia got:

raw eggs, no shell
sardines
pork ribs
pork picnic roast
venison heart
venison trim
beef liver
beef
bison kidney
lamb liver
lamb kidney
i alternate....
lamb ribs
chicken drumstick
goat


----------



## Sibe

Tiny freezer is getting old. This is still what I have in here:
unidentified llama organs, llama rmbs, turkey necks, turkey drumsticks, pork shoulder, pork shoulder bones, two big wads of fat from extra fatty chicken quarters (I add some with really boney meals), chicken gizzards and hearts, beef kidney, and in the tupperware on the bottom there is split chicken breast with beef liver and kidney.

Usually also have beef heart but they've not been in stock. Time to call and order some!

I also have finally been getting tupperware. The ones with red lids came with sandwich meat from the store and I really like having them, so I bought cheap tupperware today. I'm loving it. An entire day's meal in a tupperware, no baggies, no wax paper! Yay! The tupperware on the top right are pork, on the bottom are split chicken breasts with organ.


----------



## ioreks_mom

i made the switch last year to tupperware containers and i love it! it is so much more organized and fits so much better.  only problem is big stuff like turkey necks won't fit but it is still better than having all baggies in there.


----------



## MagicRe

Sibe said:


> Tiny freezer is getting old. This is still what I have in here:
> unidentified llama organs, llama rmbs, turkey necks, turkey drumsticks, pork shoulder, pork shoulder bones, two big wads of fat from extra fatty chicken quarters (I add some with really boney meals), chicken gizzards and hearts, beef kidney, and in the tupperware on the bottom there is split chicken breast with beef liver and kidney.
> 
> Usually also have beef heart but they've not been in stock. Time to call and order some!
> 
> I also have finally been getting tupperware. The ones with red lids came with sandwich meat from the store and I really like having them, so I bought cheap tupperware today. I'm loving it. An entire day's meal in a tupperware, no baggies, no wax paper! Yay! The tupperware on the top right are pork, on the bottom are split chicken breasts with organ.


that is very organised.....in my freezers, i use baggies and garbage bags for bulk orders, but i don't individually separate each meal....i cut the protein to last a few days and then i bring it in and it goes into polycarbonate containers. the dogs have taken over the lower shelf of my fridge, now...


----------



## kelii36

I LOVE the red tupper wares from lunch meat. They've made my life so much easier now.


----------



## KuroSaya

This weeks menu for Saya is

Mon 18th:beef thymus and 1oz green beef tripe
Tues 19th: whole quail from hare today
Wednes 20th: 1oz of raw smelt
Thurs 21: egg and caned sardines
Fri 22: lamb liver, beef organ mix(heart, liver, kidneys, lungs, gullet and trachea), and chicken foot
Sat 23: 3oz ground duck mix(meat, bone, heart, liver, and gizzard) and egg
Sun 24 beef gullet


----------



## MagicRe

KuroSaya said:


> This weeks menu for Saya is
> 
> Mon 18th:beef thymus and 1oz green beef tripe
> Tues 19th: whole quail from hare today
> Wednes 20th: 1oz of raw smelt
> Thurs 21: egg and caned sardines
> Fri 22: lamb liver, beef organ mix(heart, liver, kidneys, lungs, gullet and trachea), and chicken foot
> Sat 23: 3oz ground duck mix(meat, bone, heart, liver, and gizzard) and egg
> Sun 24 beef gullet


nice menu 

my malia, the older girl...has been sick and off her feed, so she's getting slippery elm bark which we stopped today....
her appetite seems to be back and there is no apparent reason for her to stop eating....upon examination and several hundred dollars later...

the menu has been
chicken drumsticks and pork ribs for bone
venison heart
goat
lamb
sirloin trim
pork butt
beef
sardines
lamb liver
bison kidney
lamb neck
beef ribs


----------



## MagicRe

8/14

malia and bubba eat:

pork ribs
chicken drumsticks
goat
anchovies
lamb
beef
bison kidney
lamb liver
venison
venison heart


----------



## subie Love

Hello, this thread is great! I just read through every page and found a lot of useful info. About a week and a half ago I ordered a 40lb case of chicken backs at .50 cents a pound. I've been feeding my dog, Rhoda, 2 chicken backs a day. She is a 43lb Border Collie/GS/Australian Sheppard mix. The two backs a day equal a little over 1lb of food. She is very active so I think that's fine, it's a little over 2% of her weight. 

I just ordered a 30lb case of turkey necks and a 40lb case of chicken livers. When they come in I'm going to move her to the turkey necks for a week and throw in some of the livers on occasion. 

I got a list of other meats I'd like to feed from reading through this thread, Thank you!


----------



## MagicRe

subie Love said:


> Hello, this thread is great! I just read through every page and found a lot of useful info. About a week and a half ago I ordered a 40lb case of chicken backs at .50 cents a pound. I've been feeding my dog, Rhoda, 2 chicken backs a day. She is a 43lb Border Collie/GS/Australian Sheppard mix. The two backs a day equal a little over 1lb of food. She is very active so I think that's fine, it's a little over 2% of her weight.
> 
> I just ordered a 30lb case of turkey necks and a 40lb case of chicken livers. When they come in I'm going to move her to the turkey necks for a week and throw in some of the livers on occasion.
> 
> I got a list of other meats I'd like to feed from reading through this thread, Thank you!


welcome....and good for you for going raw.

you're going to want to hold off on those chicken livers for a while...get other proteins introduced.....watch her stools and if they're loose, you may want to back off the 2% you're feeding.

in the beginning, less is more.....gives them a chance to get used to eating raw....if she has loose stools, remove some of the skin and extra fat and kidneys from the back....

once she's stable on chicken backs....try giving her some chicken without the bone and get a balance going there..

then move on to turkey necks....and then turkey and then pork ribs and pork and then beef and then fish....and, finally dime sized pieces of organs and build up to 5% liver and 5% another organ...

good luck to you.


----------



## subie Love

I know she had loose stool once and that was a few days ago, ever since she has had firm stool. I'll definitely keep watching. 

You think I should keep feeding the chicken backs for another week or so then move to the turkey necks? She seems to be doing pretty good with them, that's why I ordered the necks and livers.


----------



## MagicRe

i think you should feed the backs and if you've taken skin or fat off, begin to add it back slowly..

if stools are solid for a week, then it's time to introduce chicken without bone every few days and make sure her stool stays solid....

you're doing well and so is she, it sounds like..

if she tolerates boneless chicken you can start giving her chicken with bone in the morning and boneless in the evening.

once she get used to that, intro turkey necks with boneless chicken.....and bony chicken with boneless turkey..

after that, and make sure her stools are solid.....you can then intro pork ribs and chicken and pork and chicken backs...

always keep chicken as your base, before you mix and match, so if something doesn't agree with her, you'll know what it is...

after pork is beef....beef is rich, so a little at a time.....and then dime sized pieces of liver, then kidney, then fish...

for now, don't give supplements or dairy or veggies or fruits until you see how she does....


----------



## subie Love

Ok, thank you, I will pretty much follow that exactly. :biggrin1:


----------



## subie Love

Hmmm... I just noticed that she threw up twice. Both very small amounts and it had grass in it.


----------



## MagicRe

subie Love said:


> Hmmm... I just noticed that she threw up twice. Both very small amounts and it had grass in it.


she did that before, i'm sure......

whenever we switch to raw, suddenly, since we are even more observant than before, we notice things more.

what colour was the vomit....

my dogs eat grass....since they get tripe, they eat less grass, but they ate grass when they were on kibble and on raw now...

watch her stools and watch her. if she is the happy go lucky kid you know so well, then that vomit might be hunger pukes....

in the beginning, because her digestive system is not used to raw, she can throw up a little and you may find bone shards in it and in her stool....don't panic. it's normal...and will stop as soon as her digestive system makes the adaptation to raw.


----------



## subie Love

Yeah, she is still very lively and happy, just saw her dry heaving and then threw up. It was white with long grass in it, no bones or anything.


----------



## MagicRe

hunger or mucous pukes are not a sign of anything really, especially if the behaviour is the same as before and the dog is eating and happy.........my dogs did them prior to raw and sometimes, not often do it since raw.


----------



## Sarayu14

Menu 08/17

whole chicken carcass each
beef liver
beef tongue about 3/4 each
1 capsule fish oil each
1tsp each apple cider vinegar

(I only feed once a day so this is their breakfast)


----------



## MagicRe

i forgot to add that i started once again adding in salmon oil and on advice from a friend, i'm trying out sea kelp.


----------



## ioreks_mom

MagicRe, i used to give sea kelp because it was suggested to me by someone who is more experienced than me. i stopped because of iorek's itching (i think we finally found a solution for no more itching!! wooo!) 

what is the reason you are trying the sea kelp?


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> MagicRe, i used to give sea kelp because it was suggested to me by someone who is more experienced than me. i stopped because of iorek's itching (i think we finally found a solution for no more itching!! wooo!)
> 
> what is the reason you are trying the sea kelp?


did the sea kelp make iorek itch more? because yesterday and today, between the salmon oil and sea kelp, they were both itchy...hmmm

so what is the cause, finally, with iorek......what was causing the itching?


----------



## ioreks_mom

No, I don't think the sea kelp had anything to do with the itching since he hasn't had any for over a year. 

I still don't know the cause of the itching but the Dermoscent that I started using seemed to have really helped. We ran out and didn't get into town for a while to get more and now he is itching again. He has to go to boarding next week while we are out of town for a week and then we are going to do the loading dose again (once a week for 8 weeks)


----------



## MagicRe

ioreks_mom said:


> No, I don't think the sea kelp had anything to do with the itching since he hasn't had any for over a year.
> 
> I still don't know the cause of the itching but the Dermoscent that I started using seemed to have really helped. We ran out and didn't get into town for a while to get more and now he is itching again. He has to go to boarding next week while we are out of town for a week and then we are going to do the loading dose again (once a week for 8 weeks)


you may never know what causes this itching, but thankfully, now you know what will help. there's a step in the right direction...how's the house coming along? good?


----------



## ioreks_mom

we are so happy to have found something that helps him. his hind legs aren't pink anymore!  he has only just started chewing his front legs again and scratching at his throat so hopefully it will go back to no more itching again soon after starting the dermoscent again. i can't believe i let it run out  it is so frustrating sometimes (all the time) when the vet is over 200 km away!

the house is coming along great, thanks!  we are getting a back deck built now and hopefully soon after we get back from our trip to ontario we will be able to start the fence. so excited!


----------



## MagicRe

it's a prescription?

i see it online at amazon....


----------



## ioreks_mom

i don't think it is Rx, i get it off the shelf at the vet. i looked up getting it online when we started but that was a while ago and i can't remember what i found out. 

i don't think the american amazon ships to canada. i will have a look, though. thanks!


----------



## BluetickMama

We feed whatever we have handy. Right now we have a freezer full of a whole calf that has been cut into large chunks. Large like 2-6 pounds large. We also have a few bags of chicken quarters, chunks of llama, several trout, and a few bags of organs (calf lungs, heart, trachea, and liver attached with the kidneys in there too).

Calf prep: When I bring the calf home, I thaw everything and separate it. I get out three containers. One big one (for bones) and two smaller ones(one for boneless meat and one for organs). On the big, meaty chunks, I slice off as much meat as possible to add to the boneless container while still leaving enough meat on the bone to serve as a bone meal that doesn't lack at least some meat (this is followed by either a boneless meal or a meal with a small amount of bone as my boys need more bone than 10%) They don't consume the whole bone if it is a large one so it is left outside as a rec bone. They are very good chewers so they chew them WAY down before they swallow the last bit. The bone is then put into the large container. The kidneys and livers are sliced into strips and put into the other small container. I don't slice up as much organ as I do meat because it isn't used as quickly. I'll usually use 4 kidneys and one liver and freeze the rest for later. I also now have a recipe for cooking the liver to make treats. The lungs, heart, and trachea are either added to the boneless meats (as they are considered muscle meats, not organs) or are frozen for later. When the three containers are full, I put them in the fridge. The rest of the meat is double bagged and frozen.

So, using llama, chicken quarters, calf parts, and trout the boys meals might look something like this:

Day one:
Dude eats 1 1/2 lbs once per day: One chicken quarter weighing, say a little more than a pound and the rest would be boneless meats from the calf or a rib or two

Buck eats 2 lbs split into two meals per day: One chicken quarter weighing one lb in the morning, and a rib or two along with some boneless meats in the evening to make up the other pound

Day 2:
Dude: A trout weighing 1/2 lb, a chunk of llama, and a small bony piece of calf

Buck: A half pound trout, a chunk of llama with some bone and the rest boneless calf meat

Day 3:
Dude: One big meaty calf bone weighing 1 1/2 lbs
Buck: One big meaty calf bone weighing 2 lbs
(These are followed by boneless or mostly boneless meals)

You get the idea. We try to feed fish at least once a week but it isn't always available. We haven't bought any fish oil yet, but will be soon to make sure the boys get their Omega-3s


----------



## Kathyy

Max just got his first whole sardines for a year! He loved them.

This past week Max got the innards and hind end of a large rabbit [front end back in the freezer], some beef trim, a chicken foot and several sardines.

This week, back to normal. He will get more sardines, beef trim, pork stew meat, beef organs and chicken heads/necks/feet for bone.


----------



## MagicRe

this week my dogs ate:

emu ribs and neck
beef
bison liver
lamb kidney
pork ribs
pork butt
venison heart
venison trim


----------



## abi88

As of this week my boys(3 dogs) and girls(2 dogs) have eaten

Pheasant,
Chucker,
Chicken,
Turkey,
grass fed beef brisket, 
Pork roast,
Elk,
Beef heart,
Pork organs,
Chicken and Beef liver,
Trout,
Canned Tuna,
and.....well I cant really remember anything else!LOL

As of the 1st Im going to start doing a 30day picture example of my raw plan for my dogs and cats!!


----------



## subie Love

So I've been feeding nothing but chicken backs for two weeks now. My dog doesn't seem enthusiastic about eating like she did, I mean to the point to where she'll sniff and even walk away from it. I gave her a raw chicken breast tonight and she DEVOURED it. I assume she is just getting bored with eating the same thing. I need to find some chicken breasts on sale and stock up that way I can do back in the morning and breast at night. 

I'm still sitting on the turkey necks and chicken livers, just waiting to introduce boneless chicken for awhile before I bring in turkey.


----------



## Sarayu14

So I fed the beef lung a few days ago, they loved it but it did give them the runs. I guess that they were too rich.


----------



## MagicRe

subie Love said:


> So I've been feeding nothing but chicken backs for two weeks now. My dog doesn't seem enthusiastic about eating like she did, I mean to the point to where she'll sniff and even walk away from it. I gave her a raw chicken breast tonight and she DEVOURED it. I assume she is just getting bored with eating the same thing. I need to find some chicken breasts on sale and stock up that way I can do back in the morning and breast at night.
> 
> I'm still sitting on the turkey necks and chicken livers, just waiting to introduce boneless chicken for awhile before I bring in turkey.


how are her stools?

if they are fine, then introducing turkey into the rotation is fine.

please don't give the chicken livers until it's time to intro liver......it's very rich, even chicken livers....and your dog needs to eat the other proteins first.

sounds to me, as long as her stools are good with the chicken breast, that she is ready for turkey. just remember to feed less in the beginning and work up.


----------



## subie Love

MagicRe said:


> how are her stools?
> 
> if they are fine, then introducing turkey into the rotation is fine.
> 
> please don't give the chicken livers until it's time to intro liver......it's very rich, even chicken livers....and your dog needs to eat the other proteins first.
> 
> sounds to me, as long as her stools are good with the chicken breast, that she is ready for turkey. just remember to feed less in the beginning and work up.


I actually haven't been able to check her stool in about 2 days but she was doing good a few days ago. 

I gave her half a turkey neck this morning, I think they weigh about a pound each and she eats a pound a day. I just feel like I'm giving her way too much bone. 2 backs a day and now turkey necks.... I need to get a bunch of breasts.


----------



## MagicRe

subie Love said:


> I actually haven't been able to check her stool in about 2 days but she was doing good a few days ago.
> 
> I gave her half a turkey neck this morning, I think they weigh about a pound each and she eats a pound a day. I just feel like I'm giving her way too much bone. 2 backs a day and now turkey necks.... I need to get a bunch of breasts.


believe me, if she were getting too constipated you'd know it and the reverse is true, also.

yes, she would benefit from boneless chicken now...so you can give her a bony meal in the a.m. and a boneless meal in the pm....and alternate between chicken and turkey.

we went from backs to chicken frames which is the cage around the breast. they were meatier.....we progressed from lots of bone to less bone....but we always start a protein with bone...

like turkey necks for turkey...or turkey breast....as long as the stools stay stable, then add in more protein, less bone....stay on that new protein for a week or two so your dog gets used to the new protein with the first protein...and then add in the third protein..

for us that was pork ribs and then pork shoulder/butt


----------



## MagicRe

as of today, 9/10, my dogs have been eating

emu necks and ribs
goat haunch
chicken thighs
venison heart
venison trim
tripe
anchovies
rabbit
pork butt
beef
beef ribs
pork ribs


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## Sarayu14

Well, I have come along way from feeding ground up food. My girls got duck feet last night as a treat, and this morning they got pork and 1 chicken gizzard each, and they seemed to love all of it. My lab mix started to dance around her duck foot last night, it was the funniest thing that I have seen in a while.


----------



## MagicRe

Sarayu14 said:


> Well, I have come along way from feeding ground up food. My girls got duck feet last night as a treat, and this morning they got pork and 1 chicken gizzard each, and they seemed to love all of it. My lab mix started to dance around her duck foot last night, it was the funniest thing that I have seen in a while.


you have come a very long way.....and i'm so glad you are happy with your journey.....i wish i could have seen your lab mix dancing


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## LazyGRanch713

Tonight the papillons got a chicken wing ground with some buffalo muscle meat tossed in. They do seem to prefer buffalo....figures, at 3 times the price of chicken xD I had some green beans that were grown here in our garden that were just past their prime, and they got pulverized to save tossing them out. Tomorrow there's ground turkey and liver on the menu, and maybe an egg within the next few days.


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## ufimych

I feed my adult Saluki and Laika one time per day, usually after evening exercising or after a hunting during day time. In good times a two pounds chunk of raw venison, with skin, bone and muscle; this can include some organs. In lean times I feed Southern States brand kibble, 30% protein. Dogs older then four months, but still immature I feed one time per day. Puppies eat two times per day (morning and evening feeding).


----------



## RonE

It would seem that freshfood24 was a spammer - and not a very imaginative one at that.

He, and his spam, are gone. 

Spammers like to spam stickies and I like that they do that, since it makes them much easier to find. My favorite was the spammer who spammed the sticky about spam. 

We will now return to our regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Sarayu14

MagicRe said:


> you have come a very long way.....and i'm so glad you are happy with your journey.....i wish i could have seen your lab mix dancing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJdG0M4OQxQ
I hope that this leads you to the video I just uploaded of Shay doing her dance.


----------



## jkliveng

abi88 said:


> As of this week my boys(3 dogs) and girls(2 dogs) have eaten
> 
> Pheasant
> and.....well I cant really remember anything else!LOL
> 
> As of the 1st Im going to start doing a 30day picture example of my raw plan for my dogs and cats!!


any update on this?!


----------



## subie Love

Hello all, just checking in with an update and a question. (as usual :laugh

So, after alternating chicken backs and turkey necks in the morning and feeding chicken breasts at night for awhile now, I've noticed that my dog has been EXTREMELY itchy lately. I don't think she is getting enough fat/oils to keep her skin hydrated. What's the next step? What meat should I introduce now? Should I start giving her fish oil or some kind of olive oil to her meals?

I want to introduce pork next but I want to make fixing her dry skin my first priority. Sometimes she is constantly itching; she looks miserable.


----------



## HayleyMarie

You could probably start adding in an oily fish like sardines or mackerel. If you don't feel ready to add that you could give her fish oil every day, but if not you could do a whole meal one a week of fish or slit it up into her meals throughout the week.


----------



## HayleyMarie

Now I am one of these raw feeders who are not consistently feeding teagan the 7 ounces of food everyday. She gets between 5-7 ounces during the day which seems to be working out for us. I try to stick with the while 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs.

I feed alot of beef and chicken heart, chicken necks backs, turkey necks. Pork butt, pork ribs and I just bought some pig tongue. As for organs she gets cow livers and pug kidneys. She also gets sardines throughout the week.


----------



## Kathyy

Subie Love, it could be fat or it could be the poor omega 3 to 6 ratio in poultry. If you can swing it try beef next rather than pork. Beef has a better ratio than pork as it is at least partly grass fed while pork is fed the same way as chicken, grainy stuff from day one. Do start with lean and move to fatty though. Maybe buy round and feed the inside lean parts and start giving the fat next week.

Are you feeding skin on? If so you are giving more fat that kibble provides, about 15-20% fat. Leave skin on as soon as the poop looks okay. Taking skin off is a precaution and unless there is a good reason we feed it.

Max has had ostrich and beef trim, chicken heads, backs and feet, organ mix and whole sardines this week.


----------



## subie Love

Kathyy, the backs I've been feeding do not have the skin. I'll pick up some beef after work today and start that in the rotation.


----------



## PackMomma

Sharing my raw regime.. I actually feed my adult Shiba a partial kibble/raw diet. (high quality, approved ingredient kibble only)

My shiba only eats approx 1/2 cup of kibble (Acana Ranchlands w/ a small mix of Acana Puppy) in the mornings, I give him 1 whole raw meat patty in the evening (alternate between beef, bison, elk, lamb & rabbit) with approx 2 tbsp of thawed frozen fruit/veggies mixed in (I use the Carnivora brand of raw food). This is usually enough food for him for a day, so he doesn't eat a whole lot of kibble in the mornings.

My 14 week old Kelpie/collie puppy eats 1 whole raw patty in the morning and 1 whole raw patty at night witht he fruit/veggie mix as well. I will eventually put him on the partial kibble/raw diet too in a couple of months, but what to ensure he's getting all the nutrients from the raw diet while he's growing. I also give my puppy 1 cup of goats milk or a couple spoonfuls of goat yogurt each day.

I don't feed my dogs raw bird or fish products, but the kibble I feed has chicken, fish and whole egg product.

For treats and such I usually give goat cheese, fruit, vegetables, and cooked liver/steak with a touch of garlic powder. I also go to the grocery store and buy the soup/marrow bones, or I go to the pet health food store and buy elk/bison neck bones, and I also give them bully sticks & tendons for chewing purposes.


----------



## Sibe

Hmm. I'm thinking I need more variety. The menu is mainly
chicken quarters
beef heart
pork shoulder
turkey neck with an egg once a week
and beef liver and kidney

I am having a heck of a time finding well priced meaty cuts.


----------



## Kathyy

You are doing fine with 4 proteins. Just keep your eyes open for other stuff. See if you can find whole small fatty fish like sardines or mackerel and other types of organs, maybe chicken liver. Can you deal with Creston Valley Meat? He comes through town every couple weeks but you need to meet him when and where so it doesn't work for everybody. http://crestonvalleymeats.com/cart/

Max got a rabbit head, pork chunks, goat/sardine mix, turkey neck since the weekend and I am getting a half rabbit out of the freezer for tomorrow since he is getting a bath and it is a messy meal. Logical am I not?


----------



## Sibe

Ok, I just worry that she won't be getting what she needs from just those 4 things. I keep looking for good prices on fish, I need to try to find a local fish market I think. I grab other stuff when I see it. Mostly pork/beef ribs, beef tongue, I'll grab a package of chicken gizzards and hearts, random stuff like that when I see it. There is usually one or two other random things in the freezer, but those 4 make up the majority of her diet.

I have heard of Creston Valley, I'll give it a closer look. What are shipping charges like?


----------



## Kathyy

Last time I ordered $5 delivery charge for as much as you want to buy. BUT you pick up the boxes at specified spots when the truck gets there which isn't easy for a lot of people. If you go to calendar and click on the day of delivery the route is given but the stops aren't on there.


----------



## MagicRe

subie Love said:


> Hello all, just checking in with an update and a question. (as usual :laugh
> 
> So, after alternating chicken backs and turkey necks in the morning and feeding chicken breasts at night for awhile now, I've noticed that my dog has been EXTREMELY itchy lately. I don't think she is getting enough fat/oils to keep her skin hydrated. What's the next step? What meat should I introduce now? Should I start giving her fish oil or some kind of olive oil to her meals?
> 
> I want to introduce pork next but I want to make fixing her dry skin my first priority. Sometimes she is constantly itching; she looks miserable.


first, i would start whole chickens and keep the skin on. 
then, i would start her on the pork the way you wanted to. pork is nice and fatty.
third, i would start giving her a teaspoon of either olive oil or coconut oil every other day.

i know it's plant oil, but it's very effective and doesn't cause stomach upset in dogs....

if pork sits well, increase the pork to include ribs and shoulder and butts and whatever other cuts you can get. pork ribs are a good bony meal.....and shoulders and butts are always on sale somewhere.

after that, then beef...and after beef, if all goes well, little tiny pieces of liver, dime sized to get her used to eating organ. we freeze our kidney and liver like treats. my dogs get them after their morning pee walk.

we use coconut oil because our dogs can't handle the salmon oil / fish oil gel caps. they start losing their hair...

so they eat it and we rub it on their coats. they look great...

you can expect your dog to go through a period where she doesn't look her best, mainly because she is only getting chicken backs and necks.....she's not getting any boneless meals nor is she getting much variety. 

but she is in transition, so it does take time and you want to go slowly...agonisingly slow...

whole chickens allow you to use other parts of the chicken and she should be ready for some boneless...you can feed a back in the a.m. and a boneless meal in the p.m.

with her back in the morning....or a bony piece of chicken, i'd give her about an ounce of pork to see how she does.

my dogs did this also.....because they had a rough start, they were on chicken and turkey and very bony for longer than many dogs...and they got very dry and started losing their hair.....dietary fat was the culprit...but they had to transition....too.
as we got into the richer red meats, they did better, although they never could take fish oil capsules. which is why we use coconut oil.


----------



## Firem4nJoe

Hi all,

I have 2 15 month old kelpie/whippet crosses, I usually feed them only once a day. A chicken carcass is the usual but I give them some interesting variety. Apart from chicken, in the past few weeks they have had ox gullet, ox liver, ox bible (that's the 2rd stomach), lamb head (took them a few days), lamb neck, fish, turkey drumsticks, and whole rabbit (fur and all).

Now, I'll try to type the following in a way that doesn't get me sued or make anyone feel criticised.

Apart from chicken wings, drumsticks, and lamb shanks, I used to feed them kibble and other highly recommended processed pet foods . While on this "diet" they both had their own different unpleasant odour. The male was at the vet's every 5 to 6 weeks with the same stomach bug, and the female had the nasty habit of eating the droppings if you didn't pick it up fast enough and the male soon followed suit. 
Since cutting out everything except human grade raw meat and bone, at the recommendation of the new local vet, both dogs lost their bad smell and bad breath within 2 days. They have loads more energy, run much faster, have cleaner teeth and gums and are more content, although I do now have to always feed them separately or they will fight over the food as they're now being fed something worth keeping to themselves whereas previously they would gladly share the one bowl of kibble.

I feed them about at hour before sundown and what they don't finish in a generous amount of time, or what they just can't fit in, gets wrapped up in cling-film and kept in the fridge until the next day depending on how much is left.


----------



## MagicRe

this week my dogs ate:

emu ribs and necks
venison hearts and trim
chicken drumsticks for bone
lamb liver and lamb kidney
beef
beef bbq ribs
lamb roast
i ran out of fish for omega 3 so i am using emu oil internally -- love this stuff


----------



## MagicRe

if you join the yahoo group, sibe, 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

creston posts their delivery runs and their phone number....for your area.


----------



## Kathyy

This week Max has had -
Sardines
Chicken head/neck/liver/gizzards/ribs
Turkey back
Organ mix
Pork meat
Beef trim


----------



## MagicRe

my pug is losing his fur. i am now experimenting with a new diet.

so since 8 october, both dogs have been getting fruits and veggies - 2 tablespoons
a mix of equal parts sesame seed, pumpkin seed, sunflower seed and flax seed
for proteins, they've had:

quail
quail eggs
beef thymus
emu liver
emu necks
boneless beef
beef ribs
lamb
goat
mackerel
cooked salmon, it is wild alaskan pacific northwest salmon, so i will not feed it raw
emu ribs
pork ribs
venison trim
venison heart


----------



## MagicRe

11/19/11

it has been a month and a week and bubba is starting to look lush again.

his fur is back and nice and thick, shiny and wonderful.

they get one tablespoon of dark, leafy vegetable mix with a tiny bit of fruit, along with 
the seed mix i talked about plus

mackerel
venison trim
lamb
lamb heart
venison heart
boneless beef
beef ribs
quail
quail eggs
beef tongue
pork butt
emu neck
duck neck
bison liver
beef thymus
goat


----------



## Sybille

HayleyMarie said:


> As for organs she gets cow livers and *pug kidneys.* She also gets sardines throughout the week.


Lovely typo :rockon: , sorry, couldn't resist :laugh:


----------



## ufimych

This list of foods for dogs makes me green of envy! I am trying to feed my dogs well, but good foods are not always available. Right now it is a fiest. A lot of venison. Deer hunting season is here, in Virginia.


----------



## MagicRe

subie Love said:


> Hello all, just checking in with an update and a question. (as usual :laugh
> 
> So, after alternating chicken backs and turkey necks in the morning and feeding chicken breasts at night for awhile now, I've noticed that my dog has been EXTREMELY itchy lately. I don't think she is getting enough fat/oils to keep her skin hydrated. What's the next step? What meat should I introduce now? Should I start giving her fish oil or some kind of olive oil to her meals?
> 
> I want to introduce pork next but I want to make fixing her dry skin my first priority. Sometimes she is constantly itching; she looks miserable.


chicken will not ever give your dog enough in the way of fats......it is the lowest form of nutrional real estate for a dog....but what makes it great for a first protein is it's ease in digestibility.

how long is a while? if it's more than a month, and the stools are looking good, it's more than past time to feed another protein.

i would start with turkey necks and then add in turkey...
then pork ribs and pork shoulder next
then fish --- sardines, herring, mackerel, or anchovies - they are very high in omega threes.
then finally beef and with beef as with all proteins, we go slowly...a thumbnail sized piece.....increasing as the stools would show.

the hearts of animals are fantastic. they are richer than regular muscle meats, but again, very slow on introducing.

organs are last.....5% liver and 5% of another secreting organ, such as spleen, kidney, brain, thymus, pancreas.

she is miserable i think because there is not enough fat in her diet...

are you taking the skin off of her chicken?

if you want to skip turkey, that's fine, but again, intro pork in the form of unenhanced pork ribs, rather than boneless...or intro it with chicken.

two years later, we no longer feed chicken....we do feed quail, pheasant and duck, though, as they are fattier...


----------



## MagicRe

my dogs, this week, are getting:

duck necks with skin
goat
beef
beef ribs
pork ribs
lamb
sardines (fresh)
venison heart
lamb liver
bison kidney
goat ribs


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## ufimych

If I feed chicken, I feed what is available or I could get free or buy cheap. All bones, heads or feet, raw chicken parts, with bone, skin and fat. Unfortunately, these are not always available. I buy it for 50-70 cents a pound. The best raw food I have is usually venison. Everything goes. Even the head. I split it symmetrically into two halves. One half is enough to eat for one avera-big size dog. Some neighbors clean their freezers and birng big buckets of meat stuff for me, which I use to feed my dogs. This is a real treat, ground beef, pork, liver, turkey and sometimes fish.


----------



## MagicRe

ufimych said:


> If I feed chicken, I feed what is available or I could get free or buy cheap. All bones, heads or feet, raw chicken parts, with bone, skin and fat. Unfortunately, these are not always available. I buy it for 50-70 cents a pound. The best raw food I have is usually venison. Everything goes. Even the head. I split it symmetrically into two halves. One half is enough to eat for one avera-big size dog. Some neighbors clean their freezers and birng big buckets of meat stuff for me, which I use to feed my dogs. This is a real treat, ground beef, pork, liver, turkey and sometimes fish.


i think, if i could only feed one protein, it would be venison.


----------



## ufimych

I feed my dogswith raw meats of different kinds, but I realize that a complete diet is not muscle meat only. The dogs like some intestines with fat on them, tripe is their favorite, as well as liver and spleen and sometimes pieces of raw fresh hide with hair. My dogs also like cooked vegetables with vegetable broth, such as cabbage, some greens, potatoes and pumpkin (squash zoukini, etc.) and grains. This is what many people do and this is very good to the dogs. This cannot replace meat, but it makes an excellent supplement to any diet. Unfortunately, this is not always available and I am lazy to cook. Therefore, I always have kibble ready.


----------



## MagicRe

ufimych said:


> I feed my dogswith raw meats of different kinds, but I realize that a complete diet is not muscle meat only. The dogs like some intestines with fat on them, tripe is their favorite, as well as liver and spleen and sometimes pieces of raw fresh hide with hair. My dogs also like cooked vegetables with vegetable broth, such as cabbage, some greens, potatoes and pumpkin (squash zoukini, etc.) and grains. This is what many people do and this is very good to the dogs. This cannot replace meat, but it makes an excellent supplement to any diet. Unfortunately, this is not always available and I am lazy to cook. Therefore, I always have kibble ready.


if i were feeding veggies...which i have, but not now...i would stay away from green beans due to the gassiness it can cause and cabbage....they don't need potatoes and if you're feeding bone, they certainly don't need pumpkin.....especially if you're feeding liver which has enough vitamin a in it.....my friends who live in the balkans fascinate me because they have this seed mix of raw pumpkin seed, sesame seed, sunflower seed and flax seed....all ground up....when my pug was losing fur in spots, man, did that work.

they taught me so much about what and how to feed their way. and their bowls and plates were gorgeous.....


----------



## ufimych

Local experience is always interesting. I witnesed some extremes, such as "no feeding" at all! Aboriginal dogs of nomadic people are not fed at all during certain seasons. For example, sled dogs of Eskimo and other peoples of Polar desert and tundra regions, traditionally, do not feed their dogs in the summer, when dogs do not work in sleds. The dogs scavenge and catch lemmings. In Tajikistan, livestock protection dogs eat afterbirths, when available, and catch groundsquirrels and marmots. They even raise their puppies this way. This and other interesting features of life of aboiriginal dogs are described in our PADS Internet journals (PADS -Primitie Aboriginal Dogs Society International).


----------



## LilasMom

I am pretty close to transitioning my pets to 100% fresh raw. Right now they are on commercial raw with 1-2 raw meaty bones each week. Just to be clear, when people talk about the 85%-10%-5%-5% ratios, do you do it by weight? Like say my dog only needs 4 oz of food a day, would I do 3.4 oz of muscle meat, .4 oz of bone, .2 ounce of organ, and .2 ounce of liver? Because I was planning on getting on one of those kitchen scales and if all you have to do is just weigh it out then that is super easy! I just wanted to ask because it seems too simple to be true.


----------



## ufimych

This seems a great diet to me. A couple of years ago, in another forum, I saw a post, telling that Chihuahua owners discovered how they could to preserve clean teeth and get rid off nasty smell out of mouth in their dogs simply be feeding sometimes raw meat on big bones. The dogs had fun and they clean their teeth and massaged their gums. I believe dogs like diversity in diet just like we like.


----------



## MagicRe

LilasMom said:


> I am pretty close to transitioning my pets to 100% fresh raw. Right now they are on commercial raw with 1-2 raw meaty bones each week. Just to be clear, when people talk about the 85%-10%-5%-5% ratios, do you do it by weight? Like say my dog only needs 4 oz of food a day, would I do 3.4 oz of muscle meat, .4 oz of bone, .2 ounce of organ, and .2 ounce of liver? Because I was planning on getting on one of those kitchen scales and if all you have to do is just weigh it out then that is super easy! I just wanted to ask because it seems too simple to be true.


i kind of think we tend to overcomplicate things. i certainly did.

in the beginning, more bone is better for the transition. at least that is what i found for my dogs.

so transition is about the amount of food fed...and i would start out with 1.5% of the dog's ideal weight.

once they have been intro'd to all proteins, from least nutritious tho easiest to digest to richer proteins and then organs last, then you can figure out how much bone, organ, protein, and fat....

i weigh out my dogs's food because i'm terrible at eyeballing....but i sort of guess when they need bone..because their needs have changed over the past two years.

whereas, they needed more bone in the first year, they need less now. and i feed them more now that they are transitioned, so as to avoid overfeeding which is the biggest user error and can cause cannon butt....

we started very slowly with chicken backs...stripped of the skin, excess fat and kidneys....

if your dog is not a gulper, even better...some stores sell wings and drummettes which are nice....especially for smaller dogs...

once they transition to chicken with bone, i'd add in a tiny bit of chicken without bone.

each stage has to last long enough to get fairly firm, not rock solid stools....

once they get used to bony chicken, then it's one meal with bone, one without.

then onto turkey and then fish or pork, then red meat, which is the hardest to feed since it's so rich....then organs...this can and has taken up to six months.....speed is not your friend here.

in the beginning, you're going to be bone heavy, fat lighter and protein adequate.....organs are not given until the very end of transition and expect it to change daily, if not weekly.

you'll worry over every hunger puke, every stool and that's normal. something happens and raw gets blamed or held responsible.....it's just transition and detox.....i know i drank a lot when i knew nothing. 

ask a lot of questions and you'll get a million answers, but in the end, these are your dogs...don't overload them, especially in the beginning with veggies or fruits or probiotics or treats that are not raw.....give their digestive tract a chance to build up the acids and make the change from one eating style to this one.

the only hard part of raw is the transition. get past that and it's easy peasy. 

i judge amounts of food by how my dogs look. if they start to get to the point where i can't easily feel or see ribs, then i decrease their food or increase their exercise....

i don't worry too much about whether i'm in the ten percent range of bone because it's balance over time. as they get more and more used to raw, you'll need less edible bone and more inedible bone like whole lamb necks and beef ribs....

fat is essential but in the beginning, less is better just for transition. now, i keep fat in a bag in the freezer, so when i am feeding lean like goat or llama, i also give them a little fat cube.

organs can be overfed. and here is where i would stick to the 5% and 5% rule. but i cut my liver into little 1/2 inch cubes and give them a treat every day. that satisfies the 5%. the other 5% is another organ.....and i try to use as many animals as i can...with the exception of pork kidney. i absolutely hate the smell and my dogs spit it out. i use bison and beef and lamb and goat when i can get them..


----------



## LilasMom

I think next week I will start doing commercial raw in the morning and fresh raw in the evening. My yorkie has been eating chicken and lamb and my maltese so far has only been introduced to chicken. Last night I gave him his first raw meaty bone. I did part Vital Essentials Chicken Nibblets, which he loves, and the other half as a raw chicken wing. He picked out the wing and ran to the corner so fast to start eating that first! He just went crazy for it, and worked on it for a good ten to fifteen minutes. I wasn't sure when you are supposed to take away the bones but I took his away once it was small enough for him to swallow whole. Should I keep doing this or will he be okay just finishing it? He seemed to be enjoying the marrow stuff.

I know there are some asian and hispanic markets here so I could basically get any meat/organ for great prices. I will start with the lighter meats, and then move on to stuff like beef and venison in a few months. What would be some healthy fish for them and what are some fish to avoid? Can dogs eat other raw seafood besides fish?


----------



## MagicRe

let her eat the bone. it's got great nutrients in it.....just try not to overfeed, which is so easy to do with small dogs....the raw chicken wing is more than enough for a meal.

how much does your yorkie weigh?

as to fish...nothing farmed, since nutritionally it's useless for both dogs and humans...like tilapia..if you like it, fine, but it's wasted on a dog...no shell fish, either or tuna due to the size of the dog and the mercury levels.....be it fresh or canned. watch out for canned sardines, as many of them are high in sodium or they are smoked.

they really need the oily fishes...like sardines, herring, mackerel and anchovies....atlantic salmon is mostly farmed....as is trout...the whiter fishes, like wild halibut would be fine, but oily fish is better.

if you cannot find these types of fish, then a great fish oil should do....just type in anchovy, herring, mackerel, sardine fish oil and see what you come up with. try to stay away from anything with mixed tocopherols as that is soy and many dogs can't tolerate soy....

give adequate amounts of fat for the size of the dog and you should be fine.

i think you have texastripe.com where you live or near where you live....that would be a nice addition too.

if you buy the fish frozen, make sure there are no additives or enhancements....

when you buy chicken, check the nutrition label to ensure there is no more than 80 to 100 mg sodium per four ounce serving...especially with little dogs. they cannot handle that much salt.


----------



## LilasMom

Wow MagicRe you answered so many of my questions! My 2 year old yorkie is 3.5 lbs and my 7 month old maltese is 7 lbs. I also have two cats. I checked out texastripe.com and it said one of the drop off points is Austin Raw Feeders Coop, so it shouldn't be hard to find some great things. I checked their website out and this is what they provide:

"Whole chickens, chicken necks, backs, frames, wings, livers, gizzards, hearts, and leg quarters. Our chicken is all natural and staples such as backs, necks, and frames are $.29/lb.

Pastured, grass-fed beef organs, tripe, muscle meat, edible bones, and several kinds of recreational bones. A grass-fed ground blend of muscle meat, organs, and fat averages $1.54/lb.

Organic beef tripe with spleen

Bison

Whole rabbits, rabbit organs, muscle meat, and feet, as well as ground rabbits

Whole and ground quail

Natural goat organs, muscle meat, heads, and bones

Natural lamb organs, muscle meat, and bones

Organic and non-organic pork organs, muscle meat, and necks

Fish

Pre-made raw lamb, chicken, turkey, and beef bone/muscle meat mixes

Exotics such as emu, ostrich and kangaroo"

What are your thoughts on emu, ostrich, and kangaroo? I have also heard conflicting things about pork, is that okay to feed?


----------



## MagicRe

then, you're in hog heaven. 

pork, in this country, has been rid of trichinosis for almost thirty years, i think...at least twenty that i know of.

my dogs eat pork ribs....love them....

well, my kids have had emu. great lean meat. i feed it with an egg....to give them some fat...for you, you would feed an emu rib, let's say for brekkie and then an egg for dinner, perhaps....

ostrich, again, very lean, good for the novel protein, but like emu....not enough fat..and you have valuable real estate....and not much of it.

my advice is to absolutely feed emu, ostrich and kangaroo, but don't make them the staples. there are fattier cuts of meat, red meat, they would like better.

you don't need to feed a lot of chicken, since it's the least nutritious....but you probably could use it for their edible bone, since they're small.

definitely get the beef tripe with spleen. spleen is a great organ. feed in very small amounts as it is very rich...you want your kids to eat these richer foods slowly....let them get used to it...

and if you can get tripe from the co op, get that....that's even better than texas tripe.

the redder the meat, the less you feed in the beginning...build up to it...same with organs.

the five per cent that needs to be liver...all they would need is a sliver a day....that's what my sister in law does with her chi...just leaves it frozen, cuts of a sliver and that's what neenya gets...

my dogs get about a 1/2 inch cube per day of liver and that satisfies their needs.....and then every day, they also get either kidney, pancreas, spleen, thymus.....from whatever animal is coming my way.

i just ordered rabbit organs. they've not had that before.

for regular meals, you want fattier....for novel proteins all the rest. variety is the spice of their lives...basically, you're building an animal for them using various parts to make the whole...and the balance is over time....that is why it's called franken prey....because it's a frankenstein built animal...the lungs of a goat, the head of a duck, the belly of a cow, etc. etc.

the austin co op is a good one. you'll find great deals there.


----------



## LilasMom

Great, I am so excited to start this! I emailed the austin coop yahoo group so now all I have to do it wait to be sent the questionnaire and hopefully I am approved.


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## MagicRe

i really wish you the best. i find it exciting even after two years....

just remember. you have small dogs. don't buy everything at once...

order of richness....chicken, turkey, fish, pork, red meat, organs.....it's a progression that helps to keep stools from going haywire....eggs also are at the end.

and for your dogs, i'd recommend quail eggs and cornish game hens....small size for small size. 

let them eat simply for the first six months so they can adapt....and you're off to the races.


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## LilasMom

Thanks! I will definitely take it slow. They love cornish game hens. I bought a whole one like a month ago and broke it down into raw meaty bone size and froze the pieces. They crunched through pretty easily. My yorkie especially loved the little neck lol.


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## PackMomma

Well..this morning I'm trying something different for the dogs breakfast...no kibble as usual for breaky and instead of their premade raw.. I'm feeding Thumper a whole large sardine thawed out and previously fresh frozen..not canned or with any additives..also adding in a peice of turkey neck, a smaller chunk approx 4" long, a raw egg and just a tad of the premade ground raw beef carcass.. Cash is going to get one sardine and a small chunk of turkey neck and just a spoonful of the raw egg.. They eat the turkey necks for snacks usually but they've never eaten whole raw fish or egg so we'll see how it goes.

I have a Cornish hen I'm going to chop up and some beef blade rib steak chunks I'm going to feed tomorrow morning. Probably add in some of their premade raw and tripe to that as well and they will get premade raw with fruit and veggies for dinner as usual.


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## MagicRe

PackMomma said:


> Well..this morning I'm trying something different for the dogs breakfast...no kibble as usual for breaky and instead of their premade raw.. I'm feeding Thumper a whole large sardine thawed out and previously fresh frozen..not canned or with any additives..also adding in a peice of turkey neck, a smaller chunk approx 4" long, a raw egg and just a tad of the premade ground raw beef carcass.. Cash is going to get one sardine and a small chunk of turkey neck and just a spoonful of the raw egg.. They eat the turkey necks for snacks usually but they've never eaten whole raw fish or egg so we'll see how it goes.
> 
> I have a Cornish hen I'm going to chop up and some beef blade rib steak chunks I'm going to feed tomorrow morning. Probably add in some of their premade raw and tripe to that as well and they will get premade raw with fruit and veggies for dinner as usual.


oh, this sounds like fun for them....let us know how it goes  especially with a thawed out sardine. mine won't eat it thawed. i have to feed fish frozen.....


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## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> oh, this sounds like fun for them....let us know how it goes  especially with a thawed out sardine. mine won't eat it thawed. i have to feed fish frozen.....


The sardines were half thawed by the time I fed. Thumper was a bit picky about it at first, Cash went to town on it. I eventually had to throw them out in the yard and they picked at the fish until they pretty much had all the meat off it, left the heads. They also rolled on the fish, both of them, so I had to bath them after.

This is the first time Thumper has ever attempted to come up to the counter/island to see whats on the menu.. he's not allowed in the kitchen and he knows that, he will go into his large kennel and wait for dinner to be served, but he knew something differnet was on the menu and just couldn't resist the temptation to try and get a better smell...


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## MagicRe

dogs know. 

that looks like a scrumptious meal.


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## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> dogs know.
> 
> that looks like a scrumptious meal.


Hehe they must.. You can see the intensity in his eyes... "Whatever that is Mom, it smells fabulous and I want it.. NOW!!". He's never that intense over regular meals. 

lol I posted this picture on Facebook, I know a lot of dog owners, but none feed raw, so a lot of people were quite disgusted with this. And my cousin, is a vet... one that disagrees with raw diet and is pro Science Diet.. she didn't like that, either.

I think it looks pretty scumptious.. in a dogs eyes anyway lol.. and by looking at Thumpers intense eyes... you can tell he thought it was pretty scrumptious too lol. They both gather around the kitchen island when i'm preparing the prey raw, drooling, eyes focused very intensely on me..when i'm pouring kibble into their bowls or mashing up their premade raw.. I have to call them to come eat. 

Dogs just know..


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## MagicRe

this week my dogs ate:

rabbit
rabbit organs
beef
beef liver
bison kidney
sheep thymus
duck necks
pork ribs
lamb
goat
emu
elk


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## PackMomma

My boys got two prey model dinners this week since I ran out of the premade ground carcass stuff and can't pick up until tonight, 

1 meal was turkey necks, half large sardine each, and some boneless beef

the other dinner was duck drumsticks/thighs, egg, tripe and some boneless turkey.

Thumper will be getting a leftover cornish game hen carcass that I froze after stripping the drumsticks and breast meat off one of these days and then I need to stock up on some more stuff right away! 

I have ordered rabbits, duck necks, ground whole piglets, boneless beef chunks, chickens and some ground whole fish.


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## MagicRe

PackMomma said:


> My boys got two prey model dinners this week since I ran out of the premade ground carcass stuff and can't pick up until tonight,
> 
> 1 meal was turkey necks, half large sardine each, and some boneless beef
> 
> the other dinner was duck drumsticks/thighs, egg, tripe and some boneless turkey.
> 
> Thumper will be getting a leftover cornish game hen carcass that I froze after stripping the drumsticks and breast meat off one of these days and then I need to stock up on some more stuff right away!
> 
> I have ordered rabbits, duck necks, ground whole piglets, boneless beef chunks, chickens and some ground whole fish.


we'll turn you into a prey feeder yet LOL ( just teasing you)

how'd they do.


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## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> we'll turn you into a prey feeder yet LOL ( just teasing you)
> 
> how'd they do.


Haha well i'm definitely half way there - but i'm just not sure my lifestyle can accomodate a %100 prey diet. I'd certainly love to, but these dogs have been doing excellent on the UC their whole lives thus far, I get a great discount on it, and its super convenient for me, and I can fit a months worth of it in my normal freezer LOL. However, both me and the dogs are enjoying the benefits of the prey model stuff when I do have the time and opportunity to feed it. I love watching the dogs go nuts when they see something 'different' come out of the freezer..they just know, and I love watching them eat the stuff.. they're savages. On the benefit side, their coats have been even better since they started getting some fish and egg in their diet, and since they've been having more boney meals to chew through, Cash's teeth especially have cleaned up significantly; he's not a big chewer but he gnaws through boney meals and big improvement with his teeth. Thumpers have been pearly white since I've had him, but his bald spot on his snout is finally growing in. Its definitely a nice 'treat' for us all. Lastnight my boyfriend joined me in the back porch to watch the dogs act like a pack of wild dogs over their dinner in the snow


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## MagicRe

PackMomma said:


> Haha well i'm definitely half way there - but i'm just not sure my lifestyle can accomodate a %100 prey diet. I'd certainly love to, but these dogs have been doing excellent on the UC their whole lives thus far, I get a great discount on it, and its super convenient for me, and I can fit a months worth of it in my normal freezer LOL. However, both me and the dogs are enjoying the benefits of the prey model stuff when I do have the time and opportunity to feed it. I love watching the dogs go nuts when they see something 'different' come out of the freezer..they just know, and I love watching them eat the stuff.. they're savages. On the benefit side, their coats have been even better since they started getting some fish and egg in their diet, and since they've been having more boney meals to chew through, Cash's teeth especially have cleaned up significantly; he's not a big chewer but he gnaws through boney meals and big improvement with his teeth. Thumpers have been pearly white since I've had him, but his bald spot on his snout is finally growing in. Its definitely a nice 'treat' for us all. Lastnight my boyfriend joined me in the back porch to watch the dogs act like a pack of wild dogs over their dinner in the snow


dogs only chomp. they don't chew and they just chomp enough to swallow....my pug's mouth is wider than his throat. he still doesn't get it.

when i fed big, he didn't get it....Lordie, he tried to swallow an entire cornish game hen. he's what i call a stupid eater.

i think you feed just great.


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## JulieK1967

This week Molly is dining on various chicken parts, chicken livers, pork shoulder & I'm slowly introducing her to beef heart.


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## MagicRe

JulieK1967 said:


> This week Molly is dining on various chicken parts, chicken livers, pork shoulder & I'm slowly introducing her to beef heart.


i remember when we finally got to the heart of animals....i was so surprised by how rich the heart was, compared to beef....even lamb, goat, and duck hearts are not so rich....as beef and venison hearts.


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## JulieK1967

MagicRe said:


> i remember when we finally got to the heart of animals....i was so surprised by how rich the heart was, compared to beef....even lamb, goat, and duck hearts are not so rich....as beef and venison hearts.


Good to know. Thanks! I'll go slowly with it so I don't end up with liquid poops.


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## LilasMom

I am like 90% positive my maltese jack is having issues with chicken. I just started adding in turkey and so far no extra issues, although it has only been less than 24 hours. In another thread I have discussing some issues I am having with his itchy paws, someone mentioned to avoid poultry since they are similar proteins. If he is having trouble with chicken should I avoid things like turkey, quail, etc? I am fine with avoiding poultry, no issues with me personally there, but I worry that it would be too many rich proteins too soon. I was planning on doing the chicken, turkey, fish, pork, beef, organs and eggs,(transitioning in that order) then "fancy" stuff like kangaroo once I am more experienced. BUT if he is going to be having issues with poultry do I go straight to fish and pork? Do I just avoid all birds like cornish hens, quail, emu, etc? 

Here is my thread on his paws : http://www.dogforums.com/dog-health-questions/108977-itchy-paws.html#post1148991

Not sure if this is related, but his tummy was upset on Feb 27-28: http://www.dogforums.com/dog-food-forum/108601-raw-feeders-how-much.html


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## PackMomma

From what I've read and heard from people's past experiences, chicken and sometimes turkey, can be higher allergen. Same goes with beef. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with hormone induced feed going into these animals, but its not at all surprising for some dogs to be sensitive to poultry and beef, depending on where it comes from I guess. I think duck and quail would be better, especially if its wild caught, or fed more natural foods. Chicken, turkey, and beef are 3 proteins I try not to overfeed, just because I always hear of the higher allergen content. I do feed a lot of duck though and I've never had issues with it. Anyways, i'm not a total expert on this topic, but I have been told to be cautious of poultry and beef, however because I dont feed either on a regular basis (once or twice a week tops) I don't notice issues with either with my dogs.


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## MagicRe

i hear it but i'm not sure how much is allergen and how much is hunger or overfeeding or enhanced chicken or transition detox.

how long has he been on raw?

i did not transition my dogs well and as a consequence, they were on chicken far longer than most dogs.....my pug's ears got worse before they got better and so did his itchy skin and his fur didn't immediately shine like other dogs.


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## LilasMom

He has been on raw for maybe 3-4 weeks, although not quite a month. So it could still just be transition effects? I don't feed enhanced chicken and I am not overfeeding him, so I am thinking it is either still transitioning or allergies.


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## MagicRe

LilasMom said:


> He has been on raw for maybe 3-4 weeks, although not quite a month. So it could still just be transition effects? I don't feed enhanced chicken and I am not overfeeding him, so I am thinking it is either still transitioning or allergies.


i'm not going to say it's not an allergy, because i don't know. and allergy testing is based on cooked foods, not raw...so they are not so accurate.

transitioning can take upwards to a year...if he's been on chicken for a month, it's time to introduce another protein, given that he's doing fine, other than the itching....

he may not be getting enough fat....i know that was a problem i had with my dogs...i wasn't giving them enough fat.

i still think he's being overfed at 4 oz per day...if he is going to weigh 8 lbs or so, then his feeding at 2% is under three ounces.

but, as long as he's doing well...and not gaining weight, then what you're feeding is fine.

for his paws? put some coconut oil on them or some bragg's raw apple cider vinegar .....that might help with itching.

when i hear paws, i think environment.


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## LilasMom

MagicRe said:


> i'm not going to say it's not an allergy, because i don't know. and allergy testing is based on cooked foods, not raw...so they are not so accurate.
> 
> transitioning can take upwards to a year...if he's been on chicken for a month, it's time to introduce another protein, given that he's doing fine, other than the itching....
> 
> he may not be getting enough fat....i know that was a problem i had with my dogs...i wasn't giving them enough fat.
> 
> *i still think he's being overfed at 4 oz per day...if he is going to weigh 8 lbs or so, then his feeding at 2% is under three ounces.
> *
> but, as long as he's doing well...and not gaining weight, then what you're feeding is fine.
> 
> for his paws? put some coconut oil on them or some bragg's raw apple cider vinegar .....that might help with itching.
> 
> when i hear paws, i think environment.


This is what I thought originally, that it was too much, but he has lost about a half pound since I got him. First vet check he was 6.9, the most recent one he was closer to 6.3 (about 1.5 weeks ago). So I decided to up it. So far he has stayed at the 6.3 and not lost any weight. Will weigh again tonight to see what he is at. Should I still do the 4 oz?

Ok then I am thinking the allergy thing is just me being paranoid, it really hasn't been that long. I will also add in some extra fat. I have cooking coconut oil, but the cooking kind from whole foods. It is the kind that is solid and white, not really oil unless you add a heat source. Could I use that?


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## MagicRe

yeah, if he's losing weight on less, then keep him on the four ounces...he's not throwing up anymore right?

have you fed any boneless meals yet? as you progress with turkey, not just necks...and pork, fish, beef, lamb, goat, rabbit and then organs and other animals and their parts....and duck too...don't forget that.  the more the merrier if you can.

as to the coconut oil, i use extra virgin nutiva coconut oil...i got it from amazon...
http://www.amazon.com/Nutiva-Organi...5Q64/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331236401&sr=8-1

add a little bit of fat.....at a time. don't want to give the runs....and definitely get some bragg's acv....
http://bragg.com/products/bragg-organic-apple-cider-vinegar.html

you can usually find it at stores, especially whole foods, i should think.

don't even have to dilute it. you can wipe his paws down with it and then apply some coconut oil for the pads.....or you can put it in his drinking water, about 1/2 teaspoon...he's tiny so just a little....or you can put it on his food....

he is still changing his digestive system....and it will take a while...just as it does us when we change our style of eating....

i think you're doing great...but i think if his stools are good and he's good, time to start progressing into other proteins. slowly, of course.


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## LilasMom

MagicRe said:


> yeah, if he's losing weight on less, then keep him on the four ounces...he's not throwing up anymore right?
> *No he isn't throwing up anymore. I am not really sure what that whole "episode" was about but it seems to be over.
> *
> have you fed any boneless meals yet? as you progress with turkey, not just necks...and pork, fish, beef, lamb, goat, rabbit and then organs and other animals and their parts....and duck too...don't forget that.  the more the merrier if you can.
> 
> *Yeah the last week and a half I was doing bone in meal in the morning and boneless at night. Should I be doing one day bone and next day no bone?
> *
> as to the coconut oil, i use extra virgin nutiva coconut oil...i got it from amazon...
> http://www.amazon.com/Nutiva-Organi...5Q64/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331236401&sr=8-1
> 
> add a little bit of fat.....at a time. don't want to give the runs....and definitely get some bragg's acv....
> http://bragg.com/products/bragg-organic-apple-cider-vinegar.html
> 
> you can usually find it at stores, especially whole foods, i should think.
> 
> don't even have to dilute it. you can wipe his paws down with it and then apply some coconut oil for the pads.....or you can put it in his drinking water, about 1/2 teaspoon...he's tiny so just a little....or you can put it on his food….
> 
> *how much vinegar per water though? They use a small bowl that I just change a few times a day, and it seems like a half teaspoon might be too much for their bowl. Do you know what the exact ratio is?*
> he is still changing his digestive system....and it will take a while...just as it does us when we change our style of eating....
> 
> i think you're doing great...but i think if his stools are good and he's good, time to start progressing into other proteins. slowly, of course.


He has had firm poops. I think the only time he had the runs was the first 2 days of raw and when his tummy was upset recently. So mostly firm lol. 

And I am getting a little a head of myself, but when I do eventually start feeding other proteins can I just do 1 protein everyday? Like monday quail, tuesday fish, wednesday beef, etc ? If so, it is still okay to use chicken bone as the bone even when feeding another protein? Like when I try pork with them what do I use as the bone source? Chicken bone and the end of turkey wings are the hardest bones they can chew. The only thing else I can think they might be able to crunch are duck, rabbit, and fish bones, but we aren't there yet. The coop in my area hasn't been responding so I don't know how easily I can get duck and rabbit, and I don't just want to have chicken and fish as my only bone sources, especially since fish doesn't even have that much bone to being with.

One more question, sorry!

I have been really considering ordering from one of those online reptile food stores. I would like to try feeding rodents eventually but am not sure how to go about doing it. My dog is very small so a mouse could easily be a whole meal to her. Do I just let her eat the whole thing? Is it one of those protein sources that are pretty bony or are they closer to the proper 80-10-10 ratio? Should I supplement with meaty meat? Or fat? Cause I heard rabbit was pretty bone and lean, so I wasn't sure if mice are the same. If I can just get whole small prey like mice and quail for some of the meals that would make things a lot easier. I spend 2 hours last night breaking down chicken and turkey wings into individual meals!


----------



## Kathyy

Yes you can feed one protein every day if you like or feed through a pack of meat for a week adding bone and organ as is comfortable for your dog or mix it up and feed a bit of organ of any sort, bony stuff of any sort and meat of any sort every day.

Your goal is to feed ~80% meat, 10% bone and 10% assorted organs over a period of time. I also want to feed more red meat than chicken and include a little fish oil or fish. I 'balance' Max's diet every other day or so. Some people balance over a week or even a month's time.

Whole prey is perfect as it is, you don't have to offer more bone or more organ or more meat to balance the meal. Max is currently feeding through a whole rabbit and it is interesting how his poop changes day by day. He ate mostly organ [he ate the stomach and intestines too] the first day, had big softish poop. Ate lots of bony stuff with some lung he missed the first day the second day, pretty bony poop. Yesterday he decided to eat some skin along with the bony meat, nice firm poop. Am expecting fur upchuck at some point but he seems to have regulated his intake so it isn't bothering his tummy this time.

I am just guessing but I suspect rabbit is so lean because we don't eat the head with its fatty brain and eyes or the skin which according to nutritiondata is very fatty on pigs, chickens, ducks and turkeys. If it is so fatty on those animals it is likely very fatty on other animals as well. I suspect we would suffer from chicken starvation if all we ate was skinned chicken.

On topic,

Max is eating a whole rabbit and before that he got organ mix, chicken bony stuff and ostrich trim. Waiting for tomorrow is llama lung, lamb bone and chicken liver. Treats were lamb and lllama lung and cooked ground beef.


----------



## LilasMom

Perfect! I have narrowed the online stores down to like 2, and one of them has stuff besides rodents like elk, duck, tripe, mutton, etc. Will be ordering from there soon. It would just be so nice to do whole prey, it would cut my time down a lot! Plus I would be so excited to feed my yorkie mice and stuff, because that was she was bred to hunt. Would I feed the whole thing, fur and all? 

Just wondering, but have any of you ever thought this was _too_ easy? The whole time I did research I always thought I was missing some big piece of info, because it couldn't just be as easy as 80-10-5-5. Every now and then I still get paranoid lol. The raw diet just seems too good to be true, basically no cons to it, all pros.


----------



## LilasMom

Oh and I forgot to ask, where are rodents on the richness "scale"? Like in between what proteins should I introduce it? Fish/pork?


----------



## MagicRe

Kathyy said:


> Yes you can feed one protein every day if you like or feed through a pack of meat for a week adding bone and organ as is comfortable for your dog or mix it up and feed a bit of organ of any sort, bony stuff of any sort and meat of any sort every day.
> 
> Your goal is to feed ~80% meat, 10% bone and 10% assorted organs over a period of time. I also want to feed more red meat than chicken and include a little fish oil or fish. I 'balance' Max's diet every other day or so. Some people balance over a week or even a month's time.
> 
> Whole prey is perfect as it is, you don't have to offer more bone or more organ or more meat to balance the meal. Max is currently feeding through a whole rabbit and it is interesting how his poop changes day by day. He ate mostly organ [he ate the stomach and intestines too] the first day, had big softish poop. Ate lots of bony stuff with some lung he missed the first day the second day, pretty bony poop. Yesterday he decided to eat some skin along with the bony meat, nice firm poop. Am expecting fur upchuck at some point but he seems to have regulated his intake so it isn't bothering his tummy this time.
> 
> I am just guessing but I suspect rabbit is so lean because we don't eat the head with its fatty brain and eyes or the skin which according to nutritiondata is very fatty on pigs, chickens, ducks and turkeys. If it is so fatty on those animals it is likely very fatty on other animals as well. I suspect we would suffer from chicken starvation if all we ate was skinned chicken.
> 
> On topic,
> 
> Max is eating a whole rabbit and before that he got organ mix, chicken bony stuff and ostrich trim. Waiting for tomorrow is llama lung, lamb bone and chicken liver. Treats were lamb and lllama lung and cooked ground beef.


my dogs said they want to live at your house.


----------



## MagicRe

what kathyy said....

once you get into red meats, i would go by their stools. 

if you're feeding, let's say a mouse or rat, you have more bone per square inch and less meat than let's say elk or deer or even rabbit.

i only know one way....that was chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef, organs, and then since i don't feed whole prey because i don't have self regulaters.....i feed parts of many animals.

lamb came next then goat, then elk and llama, then different oily fishes, sardines, mackerel, herring, beef tongue, lamb cheeks, things like that. tripe with spleen, thymus, brains...

now, i can pretty much throw anything at them and they do fine....i love shopping at my oriental and mexican grocery stores because they carry stuff like beef tendon and pork tongue....

haven't gotten into rodentia and probably never will....

as to the acv...no i don't know the exact ratios...a few drops, like five should be fine..i believe that's a 1/3 of a teaspoon...

quail could be a whole meal too....so you may want to consider that..although mice are gamier and friends of mine who own snakes feed mice....

when i feed rabbit, i usually add in a little fat cube.


----------



## LilasMom

Do I have to do pork? Or can I skip it and go straight to fish?


----------



## MagicRe

LilasMom said:


> Do I have to do pork? Or can I skip it and go straight to fish?


you don't have to do pork. ever, if you don't want. i only feed pork ribs for edible bone. otherwise, i don't feed pork.

you can feed fish and there are plenty of red meats you can feed.

i would stick to wild caught sardines, herring, mackerel, anchovies or smelts, since they are highest in omega 3

i'd stay away from farmed fish..they don't offer much, so atlantic salmon is out, farmed tilapia is out.....most cods are out....and i would be extremely careful with salmonids from the pacific northwest, including wild caught alaska salmon, trout, steelhead, etc.


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## LilasMom

Okay perfect. Also I was talking to the butcher at central market and he said that quail is sort of close to turkey? Is this true? Could I introduce quail in like 1-2 weeks? 

Yeah I heard to stay away from farmed, and I couldn't remember remember the names of the "bad" fish so I was just going to avoid anything from the north pacific area haha.


----------



## MagicRe

that's usually the best bet. buy them for you. there is nothing like alaskan wild caught king salmon or even sockeye....oh yum....i think it's the reason i still live here....

but farmed anything is just nutritionally a waste of money, IMHO...

so it's wild caught:

sardines, herring, mackerel, or anchovies. 

we get ours at the oriental markets or we get them from our co op.


----------



## LilasMom

MagicRe said:


> that's usually the best bet. buy them for you. there is nothing like alaskan wild caught king salmon or even sockeye....oh yum....i think it's the reason i still live here....
> 
> *but farmed anything is just nutritionally a waste of money, IMHO...*
> 
> so it's wild caught:
> 
> sardines, herring, mackerel, or anchovies.
> 
> we get ours at the oriental markets or we get them from our co op.


I wanted to ask about this, I keep hearing wild is more nutritious than farmed and it makes sense but why exactly is it more nutritious? My first thought is that maybe farmed fish are fed a grainy feed like typical farmed animals like cows and chickens. It doesn't seem like a fish farm would have quite the variety of food like an ocean would, like plankton, algae, tinier fish and shrimp, etc. 

And I also wanted to ask about the oriental markets. Obviously not all are the same but for the most part are the meats safe to eat? I heard to stay away from things that come from china like chicken.


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## MagicRe

i tend to stay away from anything from china, like rabbit, even though it's cheaper when it comes from china.

farmed fish are fed a diet that is not rich in the minerals that wild fish eat. they have a lower content of omega three and if i won't eat them, neither will my dogs. 

many farmed fish are fed pellets of the outer shell of shrimp....that have been processed...so once again, the fish are eating processed food.

i try to buy things that are wild caught because they live in the ocean or wherever and eat what nature intended.....granted, off the coast of the phillipines, there is medical waste, from what i've read and there's something i would bet, in every ocean now....

even off monterrey bay, in california, where i got my last order of sardines.....they have oil platforms....

i can't give my dogs pure, but i can try to give them non genetically modified foodstuff...which is what farmed fish are getting.

even chickens around here are fed vegetarian diets, with corn and soy and g'd knows what else.....chickens are omnivores...they eat bugs and worms and proteins...which they are denied and i can tell by the eggs and taste of the chicken....it's not as i remember...plus some companies grow chickens so they have huge breasts because that's what people want.....and if they don't slaughter at a certain age, the chicken becomes so top heavy so as to fall over...

funnily enough, we've been hoodwinked into thinking the white meat is what we should eat, but it's the dark meat that has all the nutrients. 

anyway, back to oriental markets. i go to the ones my restaurants recommend....and whilst i cannot always be assured of their provenance, i can feed my dogs a certain percentage of non organic, grass fed/grass finished ......insert food name here.

usually, the country of origin is on the packaging....so that helps.


----------



## Sasha1/2

Sasha is on a limited ingredient diet while we watch her for suspected allergies. She's had only ground pork and wild deer meat so far. No bones or organs. How do I add pork bones or organs? Which do I add first and how much?


----------



## MagicRe

what makes you think she has allergies?

are you feeding kibble too?

what are you feeding for fibre?

i would, if you're staying with pork and venison, add in pork ribs...they are edible and dogs need edible bone.

i would also consider changing out the minced pork for pieces of pork, so she can get a workout with her teeth....

organs are something you add in very slowly.....usually starting out with chicken liver...a fingernail sized piece....and increase slowly until you are at 5% of her diet.....very slowly. there is never a rush when adding in organs. once you've started with chicken, then you can add in pork liver and pork kidney.

you can start with pork liver, too, if you want, if you're not feeding chicken for a reason.

then you move on to the other 5% which is usually kidney to start, then the other organs, such as pancreas, brain, spleen, thymus, etc.


----------



## Sasha1/2

MagicRe said:


> what makes you think she has allergies?


She is itchy all over and chews at her feet. The vet has ruled out parasites, fleas, mange, etc. 



MagicRe said:


> are you feeding kibble too?


No. She has had an exclusively homemade diet for a month now. 




MagicRe said:


> what are you feeding for fibre?


Steamed vegetables, a raw carrot every day, canned pumpkin, sometimes brown rice. 



MagicRe said:


> i would, if you're staying with pork and venison, add in pork ribs...they are edible and dogs need edible bone.


Thank you. I will look for ribs. My family may get jealous that they are for the dog, though, and not them. 

For now she gets a calcium supplement because she has not been getting bone. I will look for pork organs, too.


----------



## LilasMom

Maybe she doesn't handle the rice very well. She could be allergic/intolerant to grains, or any of the vegetables you are feeding. It isn't always a protein that causes the symptoms.

Is there anyway you could feed just one protein at a time for a few weeks with bone in for "fiber"? With different ingredients you can't really pinpoint allergies.


----------



## JulieK1967

*She is itchy all over and chews at her feet. The vet has ruled out parasites, fleas, mange, etc.*

My understanding is that food allergy tests are based on cooked food, not raw. Often dogs that presents as allergic to a specific cooked protein do not have this problem with that protein in the raw form. Chicken is often suspected as a culprit in allergy issues, but when the dog is fed raw chicken, they don't have the problem.


*Steamed vegetables, a raw carrot every day, canned pumpkin, sometimes brown rice.*

None of these are species-specific foods and could actually be part of the problem, especially the rice, but dogs aren't designed to eat vegetables either. I'd cut out all of this and stick with one protein source that includes some bone. Chicken breast bones are very soft & are usually used as an intro to bones. 


*For now she gets a calcium supplement because she has not been getting bone. I will look for pork organs, too.*

I would also get her onto bone and off the calcium supplement. Go slow with the organs. They're the last thing to add after your dog is tolerating a few different proteins, esp. red meat, first.

If you haven't already, I'd look into joining the Yahoo Raw Feeding group. It was a huge source of info & support for me when I switched Molly to PMR.


----------



## MagicRe

are you wanting to stay on a home cooked diet?

itchy paws are more likely environmental than food related...especially this time of year.

if you're wanting to stay on home cooked, just know that certain veggies have more sugar in them than others.....they need to be pureed raw, not cooked, otherwise you're wasting the nutrients of veggies.

plus, you're going to want to stick with veggies that have the least amount of sugar and the most amount of fibre...such as celery and cucumber and parsley, things like that.

try to stay away from veggies that are known gas producers, such as green beans and veggies that are high in sugar, such as carrots.

for your 'starch', you may want to walk away from brown rice and switch over to quinoa....

my recipe usually called for 75% meat - protein, 25% veggies + quinoa + egg shells for calcium and organs i gave separately. frozen and raw.

if you're wanting to come to the raw side, then a prey model version of what you're feeding would include proteins, fats, edible bone, organs....i found my dogs looked better, acted better and the foot chewing was more to get the tiniest piece of food out from between their toes than itchiness. 

and i agree with julie about allergy testing...they are based on cooked foods, not raw foods.


----------



## Sasha1/2

LilasMom said:


> Maybe she doesn't handle the rice very well. She could be allergic/intolerant to grains, or any of the vegetables you are feeding. It isn't always a protein that causes the symptoms.


I just added brown rice this weekend. She had food with no rice in it for over two months and still itched.

She itched for the first two weeks we had her and was not getting the raw carrots or any other added vegetable, just what was in the kibbles we tried early on. 



LilasMom said:


> Is there anyway you could feed just one protein at a time for a few weeks with bone in for "fiber"? With different ingredients you can't really pinpoint allergies.


She did get deer only for a month and still itched. I had to add pork because the deer is difficult to find and she hadn't had pork before so it was a novel protein for her. 



JulieK1967 said:


> Chicken is often suspected as a culprit in allergy issues, but when the dog is fed raw chicken, they don't have the problem.


Since January, Sasha has had no chicken -- it was in one of the kibbles we tried -- and she is still itching. I don't really suspect chicken to be a problem for her. I was just trying to limit her diet to the deer we had available since she did so well on it as far as her digestion and the condition of her skin and coat goes. 



MagicRe said:


> are you wanting to stay on a home cooked diet?


I want her to be healthy and to stop itching. My family is also on a tight budget; my husband is not working much now. 



MagicRe said:


> itchy paws are more likely environmental than food related...especially this time of year.


Maybe I shouldn't have specified her paws. She itches all over, head to toe. 

Thanks for your ideas, everyone.


----------



## LilasMom

Maybe she isn't getting enough fats in her diet. That can cause itchy skin. I thought my dog had a chicken intolerance but it was just not enough fat. I started adding a tiny bit of pure chicken fat/skin into his meals and the issue went away.


----------



## MagicRe

from what i'm reading, i am thinking your dog is itchy because she's not getting enough dietary fat.

i don't think she's allergic to raw foods, including chicken and i would advise starting over.

i understand financial constraints. believe me, i do.

i also understand watching your dog suffer and being frustrated....been there, done that...haven't we all.

if you could buy some whole chickens that are not enhanced....and you'll know by the label if it says on the nutrition panel 85-100 mg of sodium per 4 oz serving.

start with chicken. feed chicken.

get some bragg's apple cider vinegar, the organic raw one and put a few drops either on the food or in the drinking water....

coconut oil --- nutiva extra virgin oil and rub onto paws.....

feed the fat from the chicken and give her the trim from whatever you're eating.

chicken bones are soft and extremely edible. you'll need to add in nothing else.

once she's used to that, we'll go from there.....but i really believe your dog is lacking in dietary fat.

and, if she's at all yeasty, like her ears and near her vagina or vulva....then for sure, she needs fat....plus she may do well with raw to change her digestive acids and some apple cider vinegar, organic and raw, from braggs only....

and depending on how often you are bathing, cut it in half. dogs are bathed far too often, IMHO.

this is what i recommend.

i don't quite know canada as well as i'd like, but here is a raw dog food site:

http://www.k9cuisineraw.ca/


----------



## Sasha1/2

*i am thinking your dog is itchy because she's not getting enough dietary fat.*
I should have mentioned she gets olive oil in her food because the deer meat is so lean. 

I also use olive oil on her skin. Her skin looks great and she has no dander. Her coat shines. 

*start with chicken. feed chicken.*
OK - I can try it. 
*
apple cider vinegar*
I have added this to her food occassionally -- although not raw, organic -- and have used it in her rinse water. Her stinky doggy smell which usually came back just a day after a bath stayed away after rinsing her with ACV. 

*if she's at all yeasty, like her ears and near her vagina or vulva....then for sure, she needs fat*
Ears, no. Vagina, yes.

*and depending on how often you are bathing, cut it in half. dogs are bathed far too often, IMHO.*
In two months, one bath. 

Thanks for the link.


----------



## LilasMom

I would try doing just bone-in chicken with chicken fat for a few weeks. No other ingredients. You can't really rule anything out or in until you have stuck with only one single ingredient for a while, supplements count as an ingredient.


----------



## MagicRe

olive oil is a plant food.....and i use it too, but not to replace animal fat which is what is species appropriate for eating.

you're right. deer meat is lean, which is why, when i feed venison, i add in fat cubes that i save from either my food or from fatty lamb or something else....

acv is meant to change the insides of her system....i don't use it as a rinse.....i can see putting olive oil on her coat and i've done that with my guys and i've used coconut oil, too....for both a treat and for my own skin. love that stuff....

but acv should be raw and organic..and put onto her food, not used as a rinse....

the elimination diet i would do would start with chicken only....merely because it's one item of food....if not chicken, then choose another protein. it's just that chicken is the easiest to digest and has enough bone in the entire bird to be okay.....don't give any treats, or organs or scraps...nothing....

feed the skin, the excess fat.....see if that helps.

there is a seed mix that i used to use when i couldn't figure out why my dogs were losing fur.....it involved equal parts of:

flax seed
sunflower seed
pumpkin seed
sesame seed

ground enough to break the shells...since they are plants and dogs are not plant eaters by species..they are carnivores..

and it also worked....but flax is a bowel irritant and pumpkin seed is a parasitic controller so shouldn't be given daily...

and then i realised d'oh. my dogs weren't getting enough animal fat from what i was feeding...all lean stuff....

i began to save fat and cut them into cubes.....and now i feed them fat cubes with one of their meals and their fur is awesome.

they still chew their feet, but i think that's more environment than anything else.

coconut oil on her vulva will help, too.....

fewer baths...also. let her fur be the protecter of her skin.


----------



## PackMomma

Well.. Lastnight I introduced raw pork to my boys for the first time ever. Just a tiny bit, I think it was pork butt steak or something? They got half a turkey wing each, with skin, a couple chicken gizzards and a tiny chunk of the pork steak. I gave them slightly less food lastnight just to ensure there bellies weren't working over time with the new pork in the meal.. no one was sick today so I guess all was good.


----------



## MagicRe

PackMomma said:


> Well.. Lastnight I introduced raw pork to my boys for the first time ever. Just a tiny bit, I think it was pork butt steak or something? They got half a turkey wing each, with skin, a couple chicken gizzards and a tiny chunk of the pork steak. I gave them slightly less food lastnight just to ensure there bellies weren't working over time with the new pork in the meal.. no one was sick today so I guess all was good.


the day is young 

just teasing.....i think it's a good idea to intro less rather than more and i think you'll find this is a good way to transition dogs to new proteins.

let us know how it goes.


----------



## PackMomma

Pork seemed to be fine, nobody was sick yesterday or today. I rarely inspect stools until I get around to cleaning up the yard so I never really keep track of the consistency or what they're like after meals, watching my dogs poop is not something I am particularily interested in lol, but as long as they seem to be themselves and healthy, I dont worry about it. Next time they get another 'pmr' meal, I will increase the pork.


----------



## MagicRe

sounds like a plan...

i do inspect poo simply because it gives me a standard to see how they're doing on a particular protein....

too loose and i add a touch more bone....too hard, and i feed more boneless.

for me, poo is a way for me to know my dogs...because they're all different.

glad to hear they did fine on pork so far....since it's a red meat, i tend to increase slowly when introducing red meats and gamier proteins.


----------



## Sasha1/2

MagicRe said:


> for me, poo is a way for me to know my dogs...because they're all different.


How do you know who's poo is who's? Or are your dogs different sizes?


----------



## MagicRe

yes, they are different sizes, although sometimes that doesn't matter since they are fed a total raw diet...and their poo is small.

but if i notice that poo is loose, i'll assume it's both dogs, since they eat the same things and their poo is similar to each other...

it's a guesstimate at best...and certainly not an exact science.


----------



## Sasha1/2

MagicRe said:


> ...certainly not an exact science.


It sounds more like an art. ;-)


----------



## MagicRe

Sasha1/2 said:


> It sounds more like an art. ;-)


agreed.


----------



## LilasMom

Silly question: Do cornish game hens and chickens count as the same protein? They are both hens right?


----------



## Kathyy

Yes they are varieties of chicken. The huge 5-6 pound fryers seen these days are actually 8 week old cornish x or cornish/rock of some sort, a secret cross that chicken growers buy as eggs or chicks. Cornish Game hens are developed to be harvested at a couple pounds at only 5 weeks old.


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## LilasMom

Ok great, thanks!


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## MagicRe

my dogs ate:

duck hearts
rabbit organs
venison trim
lamb
quail
quail eggs
chicken eggs, soy free
pork ribs
beef tripe with spleen
bison liver
lamb thymus
goat
goat ribs
beef tongue


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## wolfsnaps

Magic Re I am not going to let my dogs know what your dogs have been eating. They would get jealous.

This past week my dogs ate:

Chicken leg quarters

Whole chickens I portioned out for them

Beef heart

Beef kidney

Beef chuck roast

Venison steaks

Fish oil


----------



## MagicRe

wolfsnaps said:


> Magic Re I am not going to let my dogs know what your dogs have been eating. They would get jealous.
> 
> This past week my dogs ate:
> 
> Chicken leg quarters
> 
> Whole chickens I portioned out for them
> 
> Beef heart
> 
> Beef kidney
> 
> Beef chuck roast
> 
> Venison steaks
> 
> Fish oil


well, then, i'm coming over and i'm going to tell them.


----------



## MagicRe

this week my dogs had:

bison kidney
lamb liver
lamb thymus
beef gullet and trachea
quail
pork ribs
venison trim
venison heart
lamb tongue
goat ribs
rabbit


----------



## Sasha1/2

Sasha has done well with a mix of

pork ears
pork lung
pork heart
pork kidney
pork tongue
pork liver
chicken feet
turkey necks
eggs with shells


----------



## MagicRe

Sasha1/2 said:


> Sasha has done well with a mix of
> 
> pork ears
> pork lung
> pork heart
> pork kidney
> pork tongue
> pork liver
> chicken feet
> turkey necks
> eggs with shells


i'm so glad to hear that.....sounds like you're ready to move on to another protein, that being beef. start really small, especially if you are feeding heart. 

well done you.


----------



## Sasha1/2

Beef may be too expensive, excepting organ meats. I will be getting wild deer again soon.


----------



## MagicRe

red meat is what i should have said......venison is red meat. pork is red meat. rabbit is red meat. beef heart is less expensive and many people feed that.


----------



## wolfsnaps

I feed all kinds of random meats. I don't remember what I fed all last week. I am lucky I can remember what happened yesterday. LOL But this is what my guys got today because it is what I defrosted:

Dozer: Turkey wings, lamb ribs, beef chuck roast

Hunter: Beef chuck roast and lamb ribs

Sarge: Lamb ribs and beef/venison cubes

All drizzled with fish oil. I usually give them liver or kidney daily but I skipped today because they got extra yesterday.


I feed a lot of beef heart. Once your dog is transitioned, it is a lovely source of red meat. And its more economical. My dogs love it.


----------



## Kathyy

I wish beef heart was cheap around here, great stuff!

Max had pork chunks, green tripe and chicken gizzards for meaty meat, turkey wings and chicken parts for bone, chicken liver, lamb liver and organ mix for organs this week.


----------



## MagicRe

every time i read these threads, i thank the universe for our co op.....which is how we get so many different proteins.

this week my kids got:

duck necks
venison trim
lamb heart
chicken feet
beef chunks
sardines
tripe with gullet and trachea
lamb tongue
goat
pork ribs
carlson's fish oil with E
bioprep II (spirulina)

and bubba is getting vitamin c due to having papilloma warts on his lower lip.


----------



## MagicRe

my dogs have eaten:

rabbit heads with brain
lamb tongue
beef liver
bison kidney
lamb spleen
beef thymus
venison heart
pork ribs
beef trim
goat
sardines
duck hearts
duck necks.


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## ufimych

MagicRe, you make me envious. I run out venison and have to feed dull kibble again. Sometimes I diversify with chicken eggs and chicken parts I buy in our groceries. With this diet, the dog can get ill only if he has a genetic mulfunction. On your part, everythng is done!


----------



## MagicRe

i don't understand.....if you run out of vension, there are plenty of other things to feed....i know that i have a wonderful co op....

where do you live?

if you could feed a raw diet, would you prefer it?


----------



## Kathyy

I wish Max got stuff as good as MagicRe feeds her dogs! He still loves it and some stuff is pretty good.

This week he got
Lamb head
Beef trim
Ostrich trim
Llama lung
Organ mix
Chicken liver
Chicken rib sections


----------



## MagicRe

Kathyy said:


> I wish Max got stuff as good as MagicRe feeds her dogs! He still loves it and some stuff is pretty good.
> 
> This week he got
> Lamb head
> Beef trim
> Ostrich trim
> Llama lung
> Organ mix
> Chicken liver
> Chicken rib sections


and pray, what is wrong with what you're feeding? ostrich and llama? oh my....and a lamb head....best i can do is a rabbit head.

does the lamb head come with eyes and brains, too?


----------



## pawsplus

My typical menus are as follows. I'll post for Rachel (58 lbs), Sam (30 lbs), and Daniel (40 lbs), since Sophie is still on kibble (alas, she refused to convert and at 14 she gets to do what she wants to do!). All three of these dogs get approximately the same amount of food a day, believe it or not! Rachel is a VERY easy keeper and Sam, despite being a short chunky guy (corgi X), is a surprisingly hard keeper.

I feed once a day. Most of my meat comes to me free off Craigslist which is why there is some ground stuff in there--I wouldn't buy it but I'm happy to feed it if it comes free. 

MON: Chicken quarter (bone in) + raw egg
TUES: 3/4 lb venison, piece of liver
WED: Ditto
THURS: Chicken quarter (bone in)
FRI: Ground beef, 1 lb, piece of kidney
SAT: 1 beef heart + raw egg
SUN: Deer ribs, venison steak (3/4 lb or so), piece of liver


----------



## Sibe

I got pork belly today! I've been wanting to add a little more fat, this outta do it! Basically it's bacon before it's turned into bacon. It's not smoked, cured, seasoned or any of that.









Skin side









Meal-sized chunk










I also have found whole sardines for $2/lb. It's twice what I like to pay for meat but it's good variety.

Their menu now consists of:
Beef heart
Pork roast (arm picnic roast, or sometimes butt roast if it's cheaper)
Whole chickens (usually minus the breast, hub and I buy whole chickens now when we need the breasts for our own cooking)
Chicken leg quarters
Whole sardines
Pork belly
Ground venison
Turkey necks
Chicken eggs (usually two a week)
Beef/chicken liver, and beef kidney


----------



## Sasha1/2

Sibe said:


> I also have found whole sardines for $2/lb. It's twice what I like to pay for meat but it's good variety.


$2/lb is my budget and I must scrounge for meat at that price, despite living in "feedlot alley" and being surrounded by agricultural and hunting lands. I am very envious of the prices Americans pay for meat and human groceries, too.


----------



## MagicRe

that is some pretty pork belly. 

sasha...many of my canadian friends complain about pricing....

there was a link...

http://www.courtlyncustomdogfood.com/

they will send a link with pricing.

also,

Real Deal Meats on 91st street and Ellerslie Road has turkey and chicken necks, chicken backs and ground chicken. 

G&E Pharmacy of course. And Barkers, just down from G&E Pharmacy could be useful to you. Never hurts to check them out.

mind you, i don't live in canada so i have no clue where these places are or if they can help....

http://www.dogster.com/local/CAN/AB/Red_deer/Pet_Friendly_Stores/Tail_blazers-64821


----------



## Sasha1/2

Thanks. That's all in Edmonton, about 5 hours away.  My best bet is to supplement our pricey buys with gifts of freezer burned meat from family and friends. One day I may grow my own rabbits, but I'm too squeamish for that now.


----------



## MagicRe

what i'm saying is you can google suppliers for canada closer to where you live.


----------



## Sasha1/2

If I buy raw from at pet store, I'm paying about $4/lb. I'm better off scrounging for sales and gifts. Thanks for listening to me whine. ;-)


----------



## kathylcsw

This week my pups have eaten:

trout
whole eggs
beef sirloin steak
venison steak
turkey neck
duck wings
beef liver
beef kidney
beef chuck roast
ground beef, chicken, venison in their kongs


----------



## wolfsnaps

This week my boys got a lot of beef lung and beef trachea with some chicken leg quarters, a bit of pork chops, and beef heart...AND beef liver. 










and beef gullet. I am pretty sure this is beef gullet?









Here is a video of Dozer the mastiff eating a raw trachea. Pardon the horrible camera phone quality.


----------



## ufimych

I gave all my dogs lean pork repeatedly, when I had it. They all eat it well, but some of them did not digest pork fat well enough and had bad stool. Most of my dogs eat even bacon and it seems OK, if I fed bot too much of it.


----------



## MagicRe

wolfsnaps said:


> This week my boys got a lot of beef lung and beef trachea with some chicken leg quarters, a bit of pork chops, and beef heart...AND beef liver.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and beef gullet. I am pretty sure this is beef gullet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a video of Dozer the mastiff eating a raw trachea. Pardon the horrible camera phone quality.


those are such pretty pics...the food AND the dog.


----------



## MagicRe

my dogs got:

rabbit heads, complete with eyes and brain for organ
beef tendon and gullet
lamb tongue
venison heart
chicken feet
chicken backs because they are on a diet
duck hearts
beef tripe
sardines
beef
pork ribs.


----------



## ufimych

This is another excellent diet! I would dream to have those items.


----------



## MagicRe

ufimych...if you can get four proteins, chicken, turkey, pork and beef, then you no longer have to dream. oh. and eggs. 

i am very fortunate to have places from where to order and a huge 900 member co op....


----------



## MagicRe

this week my dogs had:

lamb shanks
rabbit organs
duck necks
beef tripe
chicken feet
chicken backs
beef
venison heart
beef tongue


----------



## Kayota

Do you feed vegetables too, MagicRe?


----------



## MagicRe

Kayota said:


> Do you feed vegetables too, MagicRe?


i used to, kayota.....i don't anymore...

the more i researched, it became apparent to me that dogs do not need them.....although, if i should drop something on the floor, my pug hoovers it up. then again, he IS a pug. 

my other dog is very happy to not have veggies. i've seen no difference in their health.


----------



## Sibe

As long as they're getting a variety of meats and organs they're getting all the nutrition they need. No plants or dairy needed.


I got 55+ lbs of moose and elk meat for free! Thank you Craigslist! There was about 10 lbs of sausage and salami that had to be thrown out but I'm so excited to have the rest. It's about half ground and half roasts/steaks. I prefer to not feed ground, but it's elk and moose!! I know the dogs will love it. We'll see if the cats are fans too.


----------



## MagicRe

Sibe said:


> As long as they're getting a variety of meats and organs they're getting all the nutrition they need. No plants or dairy needed.
> 
> 
> I got 55+ lbs of moose and elk meat for free! Thank you Craigslist! There was about 10 lbs of sausage and salami that had to be thrown out but I'm so excited to have the rest. It's about half ground and half roasts/steaks. I prefer to not feed ground, but it's elk and moose!! I know the dogs will love it. We'll see if the cats are fans too.


nice haul. and i agree. i don't feed veggies.

for elk and moose? i'd feed ground, no problem.

we are getting elk trim the beginning of june. i am so excited LOL and emu.

enjoy your score.


----------



## PackMomma

Well this week since switching my boys over to a %100 raw diet (eliminated kibble completely now), and finding a great supplier of prey model raw and whole ground varieties that are fresh off the farm and not commercial at all.(although I am still feeding some commercial whole ground raw).. my boys have this week eaten:

pork ribs
bison necks
whole fresh large sardines
chicken eggs
parts of a whole uncleaned rabbit I butchered
parts of a whole uncleaned chicken I butchered
turkey wings
duck necks
beef tripe
ground whole turkey
ground whole pork
ground whole beef
ground whole llama
ground whole chicken
ground whole elk
ground whole lamb


----------



## MagicRe

sounds like they are doing great....are you planning on going full raw? 

reason i ask is because of cost....

although, if you can only get these proteins this way....then i'd say they have quite the menu LOL

well done. glad it went well.


----------



## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> sounds like they are doing great....are you planning on going full raw?
> 
> reason i ask is because of cost....
> 
> although, if you can only get these proteins this way....then i'd say they have quite the menu LOL
> 
> well done. glad it went well.


Yup Cash has been on full raw for a month, Thumper for a week. I plan to continue this way, as the costs of doing partial kibble and raw compared to full raw are not much different. As of this month I'm going to keep track of the costs of all the raw food, which is going to be a variety between cheap stuff I pick up at a grocery store, the Carnivora fresh frozen products which I get at discounted price, and aswell as the privately owned raw dog food supplier here in Alberta that supplies all kinds of fresh raw products right off the farm, prey model, ground, etc and theyre varieties are always changing as they source from other farms as well, and prices are good. I'm going to continue feeding whole ground products, wether its the commercial stuff or the farm fresh stuff on the weekday mornings, and they're getting the PMR stuff in the evenings. Weekends will be a crapshoot of whatever, but this week I butchered up some whole large sardines, a couple sides of pork ribs,duck necks, a whole chicken and a whole rabbit (uncleaned) and portioned them into freezer bags to take out and thaw for individual meals so that its a bit more convenient to feed. I also have several more bags of duck necks and bison necks waiting to be portioned out, so they will be eating mostly what I listed for the majority of this month, until the next order is delivered.

My last custom prey model/ground raw order consisted of 10lbs of bison necks, 10lbs of duck necks, 2 whole, uncleaned/unbutchered chickens, 1 whole uncleaned rabbit, 5lbs ground whole pork, and 5lbs of ground whole turkey and cost me $65.

for July's order I got 3lbs of lamb/sheep organ mix, 5lbs of sheep bones, 5lbs of turkey organ mix, 1 whole duck, 3 lbs of beef heart, 3lbs of elk tripe and 5lbs of beef meaty bones and I estimated that order to come in at approx $65 as well, but I will still have plenty of chicken and duck necks from last months order to see me through for a while anyway. So between these orders, grocery store finds and the Carnivora commercial raw if I end up spending somewhere between $100-150/month for both dogs to eat %100 raw diet I'm lookin good


----------



## MagicRe

i think you're doing fantastic. 

i am rather jealous of the elk tripe.


----------



## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> i think you're doing fantastic.
> 
> i am rather jealous of the elk tripe.


I haven't tried it yet, but its a "limited time" item, so figured I'd order some before they run out, but they always seem to get other types of tripe in. Upon dissecting my chicken and rabbit I found their tripe lol, very small portions obviously but they smelled potent nonetheless.

Anyways, all thanks to you for directing me to the other food forum! that is where I discoverd Courtlyn Custom Dog Food and tried them out for the first time last month and boy what a great little business and convenient! Place an order once a month once they email out a menu with new items or special items, along with the regular menu, email back with your picks and a couple weeks later they deliver and one of their delivery drop offs is not too far from my house, which works great. I was impressed to see how many people were there waiting last delivery just in Sherwood Park alone to buy raw food.


----------



## beautylady

I usually feed my dog with porridges and meat. In summer I add vegetables to the menu. If I'm out for a long time, I have no choice except feeding my pet with dry food. Although, I have read many negative reviews about it.. Mostly, I try to give my dog healthy food.


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## MagicRe

this week my dogs ate:

elk trim
lamb heart
beef
beef heart
chicken feet
pork ribs
beef tripe
beef tendon
goat
venison heart
sardines
lamb liver
rabbit brains
rabbit heads
rabbit eyes


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## MagicRe

my kids ate:

rabbit heads
elk trim
duck necks
lamb necks - they don't eat the neck itself, but it's a complicated chew and great for teeth cleaning. occupies them for hours, too.
beef heart
lamb heart
pork ribs
sardines
anchovies
beef tongue
beef tripe with trachea
beef
goat


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## PackMomma

My dogs, for the next month or so, will be eating:

LOTS of Duck, whole + necks
Rabbit carcass
Chicken 
Deer trim
Beef ribs
Beef heart
Beef kidney
Sardines
Beef tripe
Bison tripe
Chicken hearts
Chicken liver
Turkey gizzards
Turkey liver
Turkey hearts
Sheep/lamb misc meaty bones
Sheep/lamb mixed ground organs + trachea/thymus
Eggs
Ground whole pork
Ground whole turkey
Ground whole lamb
Ground whole llama
Ground whole elk
Ground whole beef
Ground chicken backs
Ground whole bison
Ground whole rabbit


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## MagicRe

i forget. from where are you getting the ground stuff?


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## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> i forget. from where are you getting the ground stuff?


I'm actually buying some that is non-commercial, from the same place I buy the other goodies (Courtlyn Custom Raw Food), the small little mom and pop business that runs out of an acreage in north-east Alberta. They raise/source and butcher animals, portion them out, sometimes they get specials or more rare/exotic stuff in, but they do always have one consistent menu that consists of a variety of stuff but also includes ground varieties, with different options to choose from like , for example, you can order ground turkey, w/bone with pork or beef organs. Or you can just simply get pure whole ground turkey with turkey organs. Or you can get it with fruits and veggies mixed in if you desire. They also have ground sheep, mixed fish, beef, pork (either adult pig or piglets), rabbit, duck, chicken bison etc, etc. Sometimes they get ground venison or whatever.

I am still buying the Carnivora patties though. I'm just having a hard time giving up those perfectly portioned, convenient little easy-thaw patties. The ground food from Courtlyn comes in bulk, so I have to portion it out myself. But yes I admit it is much cheaper. But, Carnivora has never let me down, I do get a discount on it which makes it a bit more affordable, and I do trust the quality of the product. Plus its just so .. easy sometimes. lol I can admit to being lazy occasionally.


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## MagicRe

i don't blame you for easy....

as long as you include some complicated chews for their teeth, whatever you feed is nice variety and it's raw.


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## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> i don't blame you for easy....
> 
> as long as you include some complicated chews for their teeth, whatever you feed is nice variety and it's raw.


Yeah. They do get some complicated chewing. I really wish I had ordered more bison necks - I ran out, but those were great. I have one elk neck in the freezer from ages ago..I kinda forgot about it. However, I have SO many meaty bones (mostly ribs) its a bit overwhelming, I don't know how I ended up with so many, I think I have about 40lbs of just miscellaneous meaty bones/ ribs etc..and they are taking up WAY too much space. Plus, they eat a lot of duck necks, and other boney body parts from chicken/duck like wings, legs, rib cages, backs etc.. the whole carcass basically. Not overly complicated chewing of course, but it has to suffice until I can get some more necks of some kind.


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## adam1120

Can I ask what's a good site ull order from? New to raw and I heard I need to feed green tripe true? If so any websites ull recommend for Texas dog owners?..


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## MagicRe

adam1120 said:


> Can I ask what's a good site ull order from? New to raw and I heard I need to feed green tripe true? If so any websites ull recommend for Texas dog owners?..


Not sure where you live, but join this yahoo group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

and i believe there is:

http://www.texastripe.com/ and http://www.greentripe.com/ --- from where i get my tripe sometimes.

I cannot account for their quality, but people order from there.

my personal fave when i needs things that are not from my co op ..well, there are two of them:

http://www.mypetcarnivore.com and http://www.hare-today.com -- both ship.


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## adam1120

Thanks a lot. I emailed them just waiting for a reply. Does anyone now if thawing while shipping then freezing again can mess up the meat?.. also when feeding raw do I need any supplements I will need? Have read just want experience from owners since not much science is into this yet sad.. alsohow about heartworm and flea and tick preventtions? What should i be looking for? Any thing ull can help me with.. he's 63 pounds..


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## Kayota

I have my stuff portioned now so it's like this:

Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/chicken thigh/pork neck
Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/ground deer/pork neck
Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/pork ribs/chicken drumstick
Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/chicken thigh/swai filet/pork neck

I also have whole duck and more deer and chicken quarters waiting for me in the fridge. As well as more gizzards and livers. Chicken is really cheap and it's hard to find organs from other species so that's why all the chicken but I'm trying to mix it up as best as I can. It's hard to find any organs but gizzards and livers too. I'm also going to throw in eggs sometimes, and whole fish and might order some tripe in the future. I have limited freeze space and everything I have right now is taking up quite a lot already.


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## PackMomma

Kayota said:


> I have my stuff portioned now so it's like this:
> 
> Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/chicken thigh/pork neck
> Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/ground deer/pork neck
> Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/pork ribs/chicken drumstick
> Chicken gizzard/chicken liver/chicken thigh/swai filet/pork neck
> 
> I also have whole duck and more deer and chicken quarters waiting for me in the fridge. As well as more gizzards and livers. Chicken is really cheap and it's hard to find organs from other species so that's why all the chicken but I'm trying to mix it up as best as I can. It's hard to find any organs but gizzards and livers too. I'm also going to throw in eggs sometimes, and whole fish and might order some tripe in the future. I have limited freeze space and everything I have right now is taking up quite a lot already.


For just getting started out I'd say that looks pretty good, chicken is of course always easy and cheap to find. You will most likely find yourself becomming more and more resourceful and finding different proteins and good deals on stuff and slowly accumulate as you go sorta thing. If you have the space and a little extra cash, you may want to perhaps consider purchasing a used, small apartment-sized freezer to store dog food in and give yourself a little extra space. Just a thought although I'm not sure how feasible that is for you? I'm at the point where I need to consider purchasing another small freezer. Dog food pretty much takes up our entire fridge top freezer, and our small chest freezer. Ugh..life of the raw feeders lol


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## Kayota

Yeah I could probably get one, I'm debating asking for it for Christmas instead of a tarantula like I was planning... Or just saving up change for it. Do you think that type of menu would be good long term? The guy I got the venison and ducks from said that he would let me know if he got more that he could sell me when the next duck season comes in ~50 days. I'm also going to see if my co-op has anything good but I honestly don't recall seeing ANY meat there...


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## kafkabeetle

Looks like you're really lucking out Kayota! Good luck! I don't have the answers to your questions, but I know when I asked a while back if chicken organs alone would be good enough I was told that I should try to incorporate at least some red meat organs. I found beef liver pretty cheaply at Wal-Mart so you might look into that. I also found beef tongue, which I would have bought if my bf hadn't freaked out when he considered it sitting in our refrigerator. xD

I just took one of the last loads of stuff to my dads preparing to move and I took a gander at his freezer. He said he could make some space but it's seeming kind of dubious to me. I'm probably going to end up feeding Ziwipeak and recreational bones for a while. At least until I can settle in and tackle the freezer to see if there really isn't space or a lot of stuff just needs to be thrown out. Maybe I'll end up getting a small freezer after a while. Guess we'll just have to see.


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## Kayota

I do have plans to throw in some beef liver next time/when I'm out of liver, it's more expensive than chicken liver but I'm saving so much everywhere else I think I can afford to splurge a little sometimes!


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## PackMomma

I agree with Kafkabettle, Kayota.. your menu is good for now, but long-term I would try to expand your variety to the best of your ability so that the diet is balanced. I would too be concerned with only feeding poultry organs. 

It may mean you have to travel further distances to search for items, obtain a small freezer designated specifically to dog food (so that you can stock up on things that are not available conveniently and locally..) ,and of course, tons of research. 

I dont know where you live so I'm not sure what sort of things are available in your area, but have you looked up any raw feeding co-ops in your area? Scoped out all the butchers, asian markets, grocery stores, .. craigslists, etc? Is it feasible to try and travel to a bigger city or town to scope out what is available there to stock up on?

Hopefully there are options out there for you to look at and consider when the time comes, but for now I think you are doing great..


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## Kayota

Yeah I've done lots of scoping, there's only one "butcher" in my area and they acted like I was nuts for suggesting that they would have organs... Checked some grocery stores already and the only "asian market" doesn't even have fresh meat and definitely doesn't seem to have a lot of variety, but I can double check. I've posted an ad on Craigslist already. It's not feasible for me to travel to any cities, the closest city is well over an hour away. If I can't find other organs should I just forget about feeding raw? Or could I supplement in some way...? Will I be okay if I can at least get beef liver in there? Is there maybe a place online where I could order organs if I can't find any others around here?

EDIT: There is one place I haven't checked out... I'll be up that way on Friday so I can look for them then, I think.
EDIT 2: Okay panic over, I called and he said they were closed for the summer, but they would be opening again in September and that he already had a few raw feeding regulars from Carbondale! He told me he'd definitely be able to save me some organs  Yay~


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## PackMomma

Kayota said:


> Yeah I've done lots of scoping, there's only one "butcher" in my area and they acted like I was nuts for suggesting that they would have organs... Checked some grocery stores already and the only "asian market" doesn't even have fresh meat and definitely doesn't seem to have a lot of variety, but I can double check. I've posted an ad on Craigslist already. It's not feasible for me to travel to any cities, the closest city is well over an hour away. If I can't find other organs should I just forget about feeding raw? Or could I supplement in some way...? Will I be okay if I can at least get beef liver in there? Is there maybe a place online where I could order organs if I can't find any others around here?
> 
> EDIT: There is one place I haven't checked out... I'll be up that way on Friday so I can look for them then, I think.
> EDIT 2: Okay panic over, I called and he said they were closed for the summer, but they would be opening again in September and that he already had a few raw feeding regulars from Carbondale! He told me he'd definitely be able to save me some organs  Yay~


Okay so your sources are quite limited I gather, however no.. I wouldn't give up on feeding raw completely if you come to an absolute brick in the wall. Have you checked out the website www.hare-today.com? It looks like a distributor/supplier of raw meats in Illinois - I'm assuming your in Illinois as you mentioned Carbondale.. and I'm assuming that's not the Carbondale here in Alberta, Canada lol. There may be some other places that deliver raw foods, but you'd have to check around. You could also try supplementing with a commercial/premade raw that is complete/balanced. There should be several of these also available to you, perhaps? That can be delivered, but I'm not sure about the pricing.. but it is one way to try and ensure a balanced variety.

Glad you were able to get in touch with this place you mentioned, hopefully come September you can add a little more variety. Never hurts to just keep checking all the markets in your area, sometimes they may carry different selections. I'm sorry I can't help more, you just have to do a lot of digging I suppose.


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## Kayota

That website is in Pennsylvania... I am in Illinois but it's the southern end. Should I be okay if I feed the meats I have listed up there plus some extra variety organs from the meat processor? I don't think there's anywhere near me that has commercial raw and TBH I'd rather avoid it if I can because it's a bit expensive with the shipping and all! Probably including the guy I found on CL and the processor I could get these proteins:

Chicken
Pork
Beef
Fish
Lamb
Deer
Duck
Turkey
Egg

How does that sound?? Depending on what the CL guy hunts I might also be able to get rabbit and such.


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## WhoRescuedWho?

I feel very informed and at the same time completely overwhelmed with this thread. I had absolutely no idea so many owners fed a raw diet. I was nervous to give my dogs the scraps of a chicken breast after I cleaned them. Where we live now its doubtful I would have anywhere near the resources I would need to do a raw diet but I'm definitely intrigued and will be doing more research on it to maybe possibly integrate in the future. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to type out such detailed lists and explanations.


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## Kayota

I didn't think I would have the resources either, but from what I gather four protein sources is enough... More is better of course!


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## adamsipowicz

Here is weekly menu for my Border Colli http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/320/screenshot586546.jpg. I use Dog Raw Diet Calculator for Android.


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## WhoRescuedWho?

Kayota said:


> I didn't think I would have the resources either, but from what I gather four protein sources is enough... More is better of course!


I doubt there would be anywhere within an hr of me to get gizzards or hearts and other things mentioned, we only have 2 groccery stores at all and no butchers! Plenty of fish places though. The cost would make me go broke though things cost so much down here. When we move again we should be able to get a lot more bc we will either be in NC or san deigo =)


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## Kayota

What are your grocery stores? Walmart had interesting things like beef liver, cornish game hen, and pork necks, and Kroger is where I got the gizzards and hearts.


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## WhoRescuedWho?

Walmart, oh how I miss my walmart!! We have a Publix and a Windixie.


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## Kayota

Publix might have stuff... It's worth taking a closer look!


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## kafkabeetle

WhoRescuedWho? said:


> I doubt there would be anywhere within an hr of me to get gizzards or hearts and other things mentioned, we only have 2 groccery stores at all and no butchers! Plenty of fish places though. The cost would make me go broke though things cost so much down here. When we move again we should be able to get a lot more bc we will either be in NC or san deigo =)


If you can find whole chickens anywhere they usually come with at least gizzards and liver inside.


----------



## MagicRe

adam1120 said:


> Thanks a lot. I emailed them just waiting for a reply. Does anyone now if thawing while shipping then freezing again can mess up the meat?.. also when feeding raw do I need any supplements I will need? Have read just want experience from owners since not much science is into this yet sad.. alsohow about heartworm and flea and tick preventtions? What should i be looking for? Any thing ull can help me with.. he's 63 pounds..


whilst much of the evidence is anecdotal, said evidence is based on hundreds of years of raw feeding....by very experienced people who have passed their knowledge to us.....we are relative newbies in the scheme of things.

not just that, we have david mech a reknowned specialist in all things wolf , we have physiological and anatomical and dna evidence that supports the relationship from wolves to dogs...

i'd say we have a fair amount of knowledge 

when i order from let's say, hare today, which is 3000 miles from me, the food comes to me still mostly frozen.

i have defrosted and re frozen. i don't make a habit of it..i try to take out just enough protein for the week or for a few days. everyone has their comfort zone in how they feed.

some feed one protein per day. i feed three or four when i can. i try to feed as many as possible and feed as many different animal parts, as i simply cannot throw an entire goat in to the back yard...would that i could.....

as to supplements? some i give on a temporary basis as needed....some are daily.

my dogs eat fish but they also get a fish oil. my old girl gets an arthritis remedy.

some dogs get kelp...and other vitamins and minerals...these are things i would not recommend until transition is complete. that can take from six months to a year. 

i look up nutritional value for proteins and i feel i am already feeding a well rounded diet.

i try to feed as much grass fed grass finished as possible and when i cannot, i feed what i can.

we live in an area which does not have a problem with fleas nor ticks....

when you start, start with chicken...bony chicken sometimes assists with transition more easily, especially when you skin the chicken and take off the excess fat...

at 63 pounds, i'd start with this formula:

63 x 16 oz x .015 = ?? ( this is what i start with)....in the beginning, i feel less is better..as your dog transitions, the amount fed can be increased a little at a time...

just go slowly and life will be easier for both of you.


----------



## adam1120

MagicRe said:


> whilst much of the evidence is anecdotal, said evidence is based on hundreds of years of raw feeding....by very experienced people who have passed their knowledge to us.....we are relative newbies in the scheme of things.
> 
> not just that, we have david mech a reknowned specialist in all things wolf , we have physiological and anatomical andy
> dna evidence that supports the relationship from wolves to dogs...
> 
> i'd say we have a fair amount of knowledge
> 
> when i order from let's say, hare today, which is 3000 miles from me, the food comes to me still mostly frozen.
> 
> i have defrosted and re frozen. i don't make a habit of it..i try to take out just enough protein for the week or for a few days. everyone has their comfort zone in how they feed.
> 
> some feed one protein per day. i feed three or four when i can. i try to feed as many as possible and feed as many different animal parts, as i simply cannot throw an entire goat in to the back yard...would that i could.....
> 
> as to supplements? some i give on a temporary basis as needed....some are daily.
> 
> my dogs eat fish but they also get a fish oil. my old girl gets an arthritis remedy.
> 
> some dogs get kelp...and other vitamins and minerals...these are things i would not recommend until transition is complete. that can take from six months to a year.
> 
> i look up nutritional value for proteins and i feel i am already feeding a well rounded diet.
> 
> i try to feed as much grass fed grass finished as possible and when i cannot, i feed what i can.
> 
> we live in an area which does not have a problem with fleas nor ticks....
> 
> when you start, start with chicken...bony chicken sometimes assists with transition more easily, especially when you skin the chicken and take off the excess fat...
> 
> at 63 pounds, i'd start with this formula:
> 
> 63 x 16 oz x .015 = ?? ( this is what i start with)....in the beginning, i feel less is better..as your dog transitions, the amount fed can be increased a little at a time...
> 
> just go slowly and life will be easier for both of you.


Okay thanks I hit two weeks with raw and its just different lol beauitful coat and he's getting lean and more muscle he uses to be bloated I think.. but way happier.. I just feed him turkey necks today he loves the necks more than breast meat... Idk that common lol? ..also ima buy a whole turkey Monday and gut that chicken haha maybe two if there small..
And yea he hates the fat lol 
Can I feed beef cheek when I get to beef?


Also organs shouldnt be thrown in yet right?.. and thanks how does dog I'm nature get kelp tho? Its cus the fish right the process of food chain?


----------



## Kayota

Save those giblets!

I think dogs like bone a lot more, my dog took to pork neck and chicken quarters faster than chicken thighs which have a lot less bone.


----------



## MagicRe

adam1120 said:


> Okay thanks I hit two weeks with raw and its just different lol beauitful coat and he's getting lean and more muscle he uses to be bloated I think.. but way happier.. I just feed him turkey necks today he loves the necks more than breast meat... Idk that common lol? ..also ima buy a whole turkey Monday and gut that chicken haha maybe two if there small..
> And yea he hates the fat lol
> Can I feed beef cheek when I get to beef?
> 
> 
> Also organs shouldnt be thrown in yet right?.. and thanks how does dog I'm nature get kelp tho? Its cus the fish right the process of food chain?


ok. so you're already two weeks in. 

so you're starting on the next protein after chicken....yay. 

the rotation i was taught and everyone is different starts with chicken, then turkey, then pork, fish, finally meat, which is its own special protein as it is richer....then things like heart....and finally, organs....

yes, you can feed him beef cheeks.

if he is doing well...and his stools are happy....then you want to add skin and fat back in.....

dogs need fat and use it for energy....

watch out for the turkeys you buy. so many of them are enhanced, which means they have too much sodium in them or have been soaked in brine or salt or broth or something.

look at the nutrition panel, always. you'll want 100 mg per 3-4 oz serving or less....less is better.

also, raw fed dogs don't drink as much. it's important to watch their fluid intake...so that they drink.

some people will prepare food in a bowl in a little water and wait an hour before feeding so the juices from the protein make the water more attractive...

organs are rarely just thrown in.....they are usually started a finger nail piece at a time and then increased slowly, until liver is approximately 5% of the diet and another organ makes up the other 5%.

after next week, stop gutting the chicken....he should be eating about a pound a day....and you can start feeding parts of the chicken...i like to cut it lengthwise and then cut again widthwise....see if you can get four one pound servings....

feed chicken and turkey all of next week into the week after...then intro your third protein.

the slower you go, the better it is for the dog. 

it gives his insides a chance to adapt in its own time. 

sounds like you're doing well.

dogs who live near beaches eat kelp. i've seen videos of dogs eating kelp.

is it necessary to their diet? i don't really know. but kelp has many minerals and, well, our grocery store bought food is a little depleted, so i doubt if it hurts and probably helps just a little, especially with thyroid function.


----------



## Sibe

Moose
Elk
(^With those two I add in a chunk of pork belly for added fat)
Beef heart
Chicken leg quarters/whole chickens
Beef liver
Beef kidney
Turkey necks
Pork arm roasts
Whole sardines

Cats also get all the meaty cuts listed above, chicken hearts & gizzards, and then get occasional whole mouse and chicken wing for bone.


----------



## adam1120

Okay guys I'm back... New 2nd week been 4 week total and turkey is gone I was reading on pork is it worth the risk? Should I just skip and move to fish? If so what kind of pork. And what kind of fish... Rm

Things not to and too thanks u guys soo much!!!


----------



## PackMomma

adam1120 said:


> Okay guys I'm back... New 2nd week been 4 week total and turkey is gone I was reading on pork is it worth the risk? Should I just skip and move to fish? If so what kind of pork. And what kind of fish... Rm
> 
> Things not to and too thanks u guys soo much!!!


Pork should be fine, I feed my dogs pork without any issues. Introduce in small amounts at first and gradually increase like everything else. There are very low risks of trichinosis nowaday's with pork should most of it should be safe. 

Best kind of fish to feed are the oily fish high in omega 3's, like sardines, herring, mackerel, smelt etc. avoid canned fish and try to find whole fresh/frozen fish. I believe Sibe has already posted some info on here about what types of fish to avoid.


----------



## MagicRe

adam1120 said:


> Okay guys I'm back... New 2nd week been 4 week total and turkey is gone I was reading on pork is it worth the risk? Should I just skip and move to fish? If so what kind of pork. And what kind of fish... Rm
> 
> Things not to and too thanks u guys soo much!!!


if you live in the US, pork is fine.

just intro bits at a time......and go slowly.


----------



## adam1120

MagicRe said:


> if you live in the US, pork is fine.
> 
> just intro bits at a time......and go slowly.



K he just ate some pork shoulder peices with turkey necks.. boneless ahoulder... He loved it went for it and went back for yhe extra scent lol untill he killed the turkey neck


----------



## MagicRe

adam1120 said:


> K he just ate some pork shoulder peices with turkey necks.. boneless ahoulder... He loved it went for it and went back for yhe extra scent lol untill he killed the turkey neck


just a piece or two at a feeding......to start. 

glad he liked it. 

as you move more and more into the complicated proteins and the red meats, the more slowly you'll want to intro.


----------



## Sibe

adam1120 said:


> Okay guys I'm back... New 2nd week been 4 week total and turkey is gone I was reading on pork is it worth the risk? Should I just skip and move to fish? If so what kind of pork. And what kind of fish... Rm
> 
> Things not to and too thanks u guys soo much!!!


Are you feeding just one protein source at a time? Keep feeding things the dog has already been introduced to! As said, pork is fine if you live in the US. It's a staple meat at my house.

I'll repost the fish info: You must freeze wild-caught salmonids in the Pacific Northwest of the United States. "Salmonids" includes salmon of course (see pic) but also trout, whitefish, grayling, and char. These specific fish in this specific location from southern Alaska to mid California may have the parasite responsible for salmon poisoning. Freezing the fish solid will again kill the parasite. One week of freezing is surely enough, but 2 weeks is what I would personally do.









Also keep mercury levels in mind.









The best fish to feed are the oily ones like PackMomma listed- whole ones that have NOT been gutted. Fish like tilapia are completely pointless to feed. Feed the oily fish.


----------



## kafkabeetle

Where do you guys find whole, ungutted fish?


----------



## Sibe

I get whole frozen sardines in the frozen food section of the grocery store.


----------



## PackMomma

Sibe said:


> I get whole frozen sardines in the frozen food section of the grocery store.


Ditto, my local grocery store also carries whole frozen mackerel, smelt and other types of fish I'm not familiar with, Red Fish I think one was called?

Some of the higher end pet food stores in my community that carry primarily high end kibble and all the commercial raw foods will carry frozen herring and mackerel as well, but its about twice as much then getting it from the grocery store


----------



## MagicRe

this week's diet:

ribeye steak
elk
chicken feet
lamb tongue
goat
sardine
beef tripe with tracha
rabbit heads
duck necks
chicken
pork 
pork ribs
beef


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## PackMomma

Diet for this month:

Whole ducks
Whole chicken
Duck necks
Chicken necks
Turkey necks
Bison necks
Elk necks
Sardines
Pork ribs
Lamb/Sheep ribs
Beef ribs
Bison tripe
Beef heart
Chicken heart
Turkey heart
Chicken gizzards
Turkey gizzards
Chicken liver
Turkey liver
Beef liver
Beef kidney
Ground sheep/lamb organs/trachea
Eggs
Ground whole pork
Ground whole llama
Ground whole alpaca
Ground whole rabbit
Ground whole elk
Ground whole turkey
Ground chicken backs
Ground whole beef
Ground whole bison
Ground whole lamb


----------



## MagicRe

packmomma: from where are you getting the ground exotics?

man, your pack has come a long, long way. i'm not showing your monthly vittles to my kids. they're going to want to come live with you.


----------



## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> packmomma: from where are you getting the ground exotics?
> 
> man, your pack has come a long, long way. i'm not showing your monthly vittles to my kids. they're going to want to come live with you.


I get most of my ground stuff from two commercial companies, Carnivora & Spring Meadows. They are %100 ground whole animal, no additives, and I know that Spring Meadows claims to use grass and free range animals, although I don't know about Carnivora for sure. I feed both, they both carry pretty close to the same protiens, except a few, so I can ensure a wide variety using both. Between those two brands I can get ground venison, elk, alpaca, lamb, bison, beef, turkey, chicken, duck, rabbit.

Courtlyn Custom Dogfood, where I get my PMR varieties from, also carries some ground varieties and I get the ground whole pork and llama/alpaca mix from there, they get 'specials' each month and recently just added alpaca/llama to their menu list, but they also have ground sheep, fish, beef, turkey, chicken etc. But their ground stuff is quite messy and I don't like the way it is packaged, so I tend to just get any ground varieties I can't normally get from a commercial company from them.

I'm definitely doing the best I can, still a learning process! Courtlyn emailed us yesterday to announce they just got elk and bison organs in, limited quantities so I ordered a bunch of that, pretty excited


----------



## adam1120

Quick questions guys whole sardines are okay right? O was scared so fed half only he loved them lol..


I was wondering after this its beef and how should I start with that?.. like which cuts do ull perfer over other ones.. I'm gunna order mote exotic meats soon.


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## Sibe

For beef, heart and tongue are most commonly fed due to costs. Heart is known to cause runny poo so introduce it slowly be doing a meal of 1/4 heart and 3/4 meat the dog is already used to. Do that a couple times, then 50/50 a couple times, etc. Also heart often causes very dark poo, sometimes nearly black, that can be tar-like in consistency. That's totally normal and nothing to panic about. I feed heart all the time! Tongue you should probably do a couple 50/50 meals before doing an entire meal of it just to get them introduced to it.

Sardines are totally fine! I feed them. No need to cut off head, tail, or gut it. Feed it just as it is.


----------



## A-Blue-Roan

I buy fish from the supermarket when it has been reduced in prices the food I buy has fish all ready included. Millies loves whole mackeral, she also gets left over fish when we get a take awya and the odd chip though this is very occassianal. I also buy fish jerky from Fish 4 Dogs.

All her meals are complete from Natural Instinct I buy Beef tripe, turkey and tripe, pure minced duck, chicken and from natures menue I get Duck and salmon nuggets.We buy chicken wings from the supermarket and I will broth left over roastshaving taken out the bones once the meat can be raked off.


----------



## adam1120

Sibe said:


> Are you feeding just one protein source at a time? Keep feeding things the dog has already been introduced to! As said, pork is fine if you live in the US. It's a staple meat at my house.
> 
> I'll repost the fish info: You must freeze wild-caught salmonids in the Pacific Northwest of the United States. "Salmonids" includes salmon of course (see pic) but also trout, whitefish, grayling, and char. These specific fish in this specific location from southern Alaska to mid California may have the parasite responsible for salmon poisoning. Freezing the fish solid will again kill the parasite. One week of freezing is surely enough, but 2 weeks is what I would personally do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also keep mercury levels in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The best fish to feed are the oily ones like PackMomma listed- whole ones that have NOT been gutted. Fish like tilapia are completely pointless to feed. Feed the oily fish.


I'm sorry been gone there really isn't to much fish in my area all im was able to get are whole sardines... try and mix all his food together to the most from each meal... I was wondering should I stick with sardines for a while longer then jump to beef? Then after beef should start the organs? I plan on ordering a huge order to last 100+ pounds from my pet carnivore... Beef is very cheap in my area...sucks cus I live in small town planning to moving to bigger city soon to pursue my education further with animals. His diet last two weeks looks like this all mixed tho. Let's me know how I'm doin my list is small compared to yalls:/ 

Turkey necks
Turkey wings
Turkey legs
Chicken legs
Chicken thighs
Boneless pork shoulder
Whole Sardines

How's my diet? Any suggestions I'm opened to anything I'm doin wrong and can and will fix ASAP thanks guys


----------



## Sibe

You can start organs whenever you want. Personally I like to have the dog fully adjusted to raw and doing well on 3-4 protein sources before intentionally introducing organs- I say intentionally because often there are scribbles of organ left on chicken leg quarters. You can continue to add the sardines.

What you're feeding now seems a bit bone-heavy. Remember only about 10% of the dog's diet should be bone. Unless you're feeding mainly pork shoulder, it looks like you're feeding too much bone. The first week or so can be a bit bone-heavy to help keep stools firm but you gradually want to cut back to about 10%.

From the USDA site:
Turkey neck = 42% bone
Turkey wing = 33% bone
Turkey leg = 17% bone
Chicken leg (drumstick) = 33% bone
Chicken thigh = 15%


----------



## adam1120

Sibe said:


> You can start organs whenever you want. Personally I like to have the dog fully adjusted to raw and doing well on 3-4 protein sources before intentionally introducing organs- I say intentionally because often there are scribbles of organ left on chicken leg quarters. You can continue to add the sardines.
> 
> What you're feeding now seems a bit bone-heavy. Remember only about 10% of the dog's diet should be bone. Unless you're feeding mainly pork shoulder, it looks like you're feeding too much bone. The first week or so can be a bit bone-heavy to help keep stools firm but you gradually want to cut back to about 10%.
> 
> From the USDA site:
> Turkey neck = 42% bone
> Turkey wing = 33% bone
> Turkey leg = 17% bone
> Chicken leg (drumstick) = 33% bone
> Chicken thigh = 15%


No ur correct im on the high side of bone feeding...thanks so much.. do u have a chart or something I now I saw one somewhere to help people out... So his diet next week should be 50 shoulder 1 turkey neck and 1 sardne?...I had it all figured out on paper with percentage and stuff. He chewed it and haven't made one again lol I need to..... 

Thanks soo much also


----------



## Sibe

The guideline is 80% meat, 10% edible bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organ (again, no rush on the organs when you're first starting out). You want to feed mostly meat with a little bone and a little organ. I haven't figured out the exact percentages but by approximating I feed 2-3 boney meals (turkey neck or chicken leg quarter usually) a week and 4-5 meat meals.


----------



## wolfsnaps

I pulled a bag out of my deep freeze and defrosted it. It happened to be a bag of deer parts. My dogs favorite! Heart, lung, liver, back strap, and ribs. I portioned the ribs out so all three can have some. 

(all free )









Each boy got some:









And here are some free rabbit leftover parts I got from a hobby breeder:











And this stuff I paid for. $0.60 a pound for tripe, spleen, and trachea with gullet:









So what is on the menu for your dogs?


----------



## adam1120

Sibe said:


> The guideline is 80% meat, 10% edible bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organ (again, no rush on the organs when you're first starting out). You want to feed mostly meat with a little bone and a little organ. I haven't figured out the exact percentages but by approximating I feed 2-3 boney meals (turkey neck or chicken leg quarter usually) a week and 4-5 meat meals.




Okay went out got bone in pork shoulder only thing that was there.. this a okay staple? I'm in us.. and got 1 pound of frozen sardines... Split it up into 8 meals I think.. this better?. Also the bone can he have it? Or throw it away? Thanks alot

And the fat on the pork shoulder consider "meat"? Or no I count full meat only?

Getting half a deer for free lol gunna stay in the fridge for a while lol.


----------



## Sibe

Pork shoulder is staple for what I feed. The bone can be ok for some dogs, not for others. My dogs get extremely hard poops if I let them eat the bone so typically I'll let them strip the meat, eat some of it, then re-freeze or toss the rest.

The fat is part of meat. Fat is essential and beneficial. Don't rim or remove it, feed it.

Wild game should be frozen at least a week, then feed away!


----------



## adam1120

Sibe said:


> Pork shoulder is staple for what I feed. The bone can be ok for some dogs, not for others. My dogs get extremely hard poops if I let them eat the bone so typically I'll let them strip the meat, eat some of it, then re-freeze or toss the rest.
> 
> The fat is part of meat. Fat is essential and beneficial. Don't rim or remove it, feed it.
> 
> Wild game should be frozen at least a week, then feed away!


What kind of ribs can be feed from pork I'm scared to feed rribs lol? okay yes I figured that with the fat just making sure 100%..But should I wait till he past beef? I was thinking of starting beef this next week.. what good to start with?.. beef brisket? My local heb got ton of beef ok sale alot


----------



## Sibe

I wouldn't introduce more than one new source per week to start with. For beef, get whatever is within your price range. For me that means heart. I can't afford to spend $5-10/lb for beef steaks.

Pork ribs are fine. I actually have some defrosting in the fridge right now to feed tomorrow. I've fed beef ribs too, but for my 40 lb huskies they can be a bit hard. My general rule (as I think I've stated recently?) is that if the dog has to gnaw then the bone is too hard. I let them strip the meat off and nibble the bones but once the meat is gone I ditch the bones. Larger dogs can handle beef ribs pretty well. Goat ribs and sheep ribs are also good. I've fed llama ribs too. When you feed ribs, feed a slab of at least 2 connected ribs depending on the size of your dog and the size of the ribs. I usually do 2-4 ribs.


----------



## MagicRe

adam1120 said:


> What kind of ribs can be feed from pork I'm scared to feed rribs lol? okay yes I figured that with the fat just making sure 100%..But should I wait till he past beef? I was thinking of starting beef this next week.. what good to start with?.. beef brisket? My local heb got ton of beef ok sale alot



pork ribs are edible bone. beef ribs generally are not.

when starting beef, start with lean first and in small amounts. once he does well on beef, then move on to the fattier cuts.....fat is good.

i'd let him adapt to pork first before intro'ing beef. when you get into the red meats, slow is better than fast.


----------



## MagicRe

i don't have a set menu:

this is what my guys ate over the past few weeks.

lamb necks
pork ribs
boneless beef
beef rib
boneless elk
chicken
eggs
tripe with trachea
beef spleen
lamb liver
lamb ribs
goat
bison kidney
beef tendon
sardines


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## PackMomma

New items added to the menu this month:

Elk necks
Elk kidney
Bison kidney
Chicken feet
Goat
Pork shoulder
Pork organs - ground/mixed
Moose meat (ground and steaks)


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## ufimych

Another sample of a good diet. I was lucky last week. Some person offered me a bunch of "freezer burned" meat. It was a kind of food hoarding clean up. I have got about 150 pounds of the stuff. Anything from USDA choice beef to salmon and other fish, whole chickens and turkey breast. It is a time of plenty before deer hunting starts.


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## Gally

I think we are finally far enough into the transition to post a fuller menu:
- whole mackerel
- whole sardines
- chicken drumsticks/quarters
- chicken frames
- chicken heads
- turkey drumsticks
- turkey necks
- pork ribs
- pork heart
- pork shoulder
- pork liver
- beef heart
- beef scraps (free from craigslist score)
- beef liver
- eggs
- tripe

Hoping to get some other organs after we finish introducing liver.


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## MagicRe

gally, you're doing great.....

how's he doing on his liver intro?


----------



## Gally

I think his intro to liver is going a lot smoother now. We had a bit of a rocky start. Even though I only gave him what I thought was a little sliver the first time he had some diarrhea the next day. Now he is eating a small piece probably every other day with his highest density bone in meals and everything is going well. When we can feed him slightly bigger pieces then we will intro another organ. Slow and steady


----------



## mrgoodkat

Hey guys,

I'm still starting out on the raw diet for my babies.

Last week we had

Whole Chicken Wings
Duck Kidney
Duck Neck (incl head)
Pork Belly
Pork Liver
Pacific Saury
Eggs
Beef strips

Faith is still on her first week and eating only whole chicken wings everyday, I only gave her a bit of the beef strips yesterday.

Snow White is mainly eating a whole chicken wing a day divided over two meals plus kidney, liver, pork belly or saury. (E.g. Breakfast: Half a wing, one duck kidney. Dinner: other half of the wing, pork liver etc). Duck necks are fed instead of the chicken wings.) Eggs just get added on top once a week.

Snow White is fed 2.5% percent of her body weight and Faith 3.5% since she is a bit underweight.

Any ideas what I could feed in addition to that?

BTW: Are chicken wings to rich on bones?

I tried to get green tribe, but it seemed a bit pricey, costing about 3 times as much s the chicken wings.

Right now I feed the two dogs for about $2.5 USD a day, luckily I found a source to buy imported chicken wings from Brazil for $ 1.4 USD per lbs if I buy 60 lbs at once.
So I don't have to feed anything from China 

Pic of the freezer:








The upper 4 shelves are for the dogs. I only got 2 shelves now for people food.


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## MagicRe

we have added an addition to our family.....Levi Jacob is a blue merle rough collie and today he is 16 weeks...

he was weaned to raw, so he eats everything:

emu
rabbit
turkey
chicken
sardines
lamb liver
bison kidney
beef spleen
pork necks
lamb necks
beef
goat
lamb chunks


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## PackMomma

Dog food order came in yesterday... Just in time to pack up the house and move. 

Freezer is currently chalked full of..

Bison tongues
Bison hearts
Bison kidney
Bison necks
Bison tripe
Elk kidney
Elk necks
Pork riblets
Pork shoulder
Ground mixed pork organs
Ground mixed sheep organs
Turkey necks
Chicken necks
Chicken hearts
Chicken liver
Chicken gizzards
Turkey hearts
Turkey gizzards
Turkey liver
Beef liver
Beef chunks
Chicken feet
Duck
Moose
Goat
Sheep
Alpaca
Sardines
Halibut

Umm.. think thats it?


----------



## Rhu

Yay, finally someone with Small dogs  anyone else on here with small dogs - under 15 lbs? I like the way Great Dane has their menu set up, but trying to convert to small dog amounts just isn't working. My dogs are between 9 & 12 lbs, one needs to gain a bit and the others need to loose a bit. Would love to connect with other small dog raw feeders, you can send me a message on here if you would.


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## MagicRe

sorry, had the flue.....and a puppy who takes up much of my time..

my guys have been eating:

beef
elk
goat plus goat ribs
rabbit heads with brains
bison kidney
lamb liver
lamb
pork necks
soft pork bone
emu and emu ribs
turkey necks
chicken from my friend --- they stopped laying eggs, so my kids got a bonus
sardines
spleen
beef heart
lamb heart
venison heart

my smallest dog, rhu, weighs in at 19.3 lbs.....and is the pug in the pic....

little dogs are harder, because much depends on their metabolism. if they are couch potatoes...they don't get much, around 2% of their ideal weight...and if they are whirling dervishes, they can go as high as 5-8%...

the good news is you'll see if you're over or underfeeding with them......but a nice start would be around 3.2 oz per day.....that's basing it on 2% at 10 lbs.


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## taquitos

My pom is very emaciated (I can feel his hip bones and his spine D: ), so even though he weighs 6.5-7 lbs, I have been feeding him at 3% for an 8 lbs dog. He gets about 0.25 lbs a day, but I give him other things throughout the day as snacks as well.

Usually he gets the premade blend we sell at my work (hormone/antibiotic free, free range, locally sourced meat). His typical weekly menu looks like this:
Day 1: Chicken back/leg (whatever I can get on sale) + a couple of hearts and some liver (beef, chicken, or pork).
Day 2: Chicken, organ and whitefish blend (70% muscle meat, 10% heart [for taurine since we feed the same mix to the cats], and 10% organs, 10% bone).
Day 3: Venison, organ, and chicken blend (same ratios)
Day 4: Chicken necks, some liver and heart (different animals).
Day 5: Beef, organ, and chicken blend (same ratios)
Day 6: Novelty protein (anything from rabbit, to turkey, so basically anything I don't typically feed)
Day 7: Leftover whatever (so maybe it's the blends from work, or left over meat).

I need to add more variety, I think, but for now, I guess it works @[email protected]


----------



## MagicRe

taquitos said:


> My pom is very emaciated (I can feel his hip bones and his spine D: ), so even though he weighs 6.5-7 lbs, I have been feeding him at 3% for an 8 lbs dog. He gets about 0.25 lbs a day, but I give him other things throughout the day as snacks as well.
> 
> Usually he gets the premade blend we sell at my work (hormone/antibiotic free, free range, locally sourced meat). His typical weekly menu looks like this:
> Day 1: Chicken back/leg (whatever I can get on sale) + a couple of hearts and some liver (beef, chicken, or pork).
> Day 2: Chicken, organ and whitefish blend (70% muscle meat, 10% heart [for taurine since we feed the same mix to the cats], and 10% organs, 10% bone).
> Day 3: Venison, organ, and chicken blend (same ratios)
> Day 4: Chicken necks, some liver and heart (different animals).
> Day 5: Beef, organ, and chicken blend (same ratios)
> Day 6: Novelty protein (anything from rabbit, to turkey, so basically anything I don't typically feed)
> Day 7: Leftover whatever (so maybe it's the blends from work, or left over meat).
> 
> I need to add more variety, I think, but for now, I guess it works @[email protected]


if your dog is emaciated, which is a strong word.....then feed him a higher percentage...the 2-3% is a guideline, not carved in stone. 

i think your variety is fine.


----------



## Kathyy

Agree, feed more if he needs it. I want to feel those bones but they should be under the muscle, not sticking above it. Max is feeling a bit bony right now, guess he will get a bit more this week.

I would feed mostly red meat and only enough bone to firm the poop. Not a fan of the whitefish grind, use sardine/salmon/sardine instead or more red meat. Sure wish Max got venison though! I generally feed Max after he poops so I have a good idea whether he needs bone or not and switch around if need be.


----------



## taquitos

I wish I could take a photo of how skinny he is, but he's so fluffy it's very hard to show how skinny he is! There's a deep groove between his two hip bones, which has filled out a bit since I brought him home. If I feed more, wouldn't he just poop more? Or am I wrong about that @[email protected]

Any particular reason for not liking the whitefish?

Also, I am a little apprehensive about giving whole raw fish to Meeko. Would it be okay to give him raw fish (bones and all?) I found frozen sardines for pretty cheap and I wanted to give it to him, but I was afraid of parasites or of him choking on the fish bones? I am still pretty new to raw (it's been around 4 months or so since I've started feeding raw to my cats and dogs).


----------



## Kathyy

The only reason I feed fish at all is for the omega 3 content and whitefish is low in omega 3 just because they are low in fat overall. An ounce of whiting has 77mg of O3s and an ounce of Pacific mackerel has 450mg for instance. You don't have to give whole fish, fillets are fine, canned is fine, fish oil is fine. And of course you can feed it, it is fine stuff if you are getting the rest of the i's dotted and t's crossed. My dog only gets 1.6% of his actual body weight a day and I try to get as much iron, zinc and the rest in there as possible. Fish and poultry aren't as good as red meat for anything but fat and protein really.

If he needs the food then he should fill out. Not all dogs poop out the extra food, some do gain weight. You could feed 3x a day if he seems to be having trouble with a bigger meal.

I hear you about telling whether the dog is underweight or not. Max was way overweight but you couldn't tell. He had a table back and the skin was tight all over but he still had a nice tuck and fuzz hid the rest. And right now his butt is a bit bony and you have to put your hands on him to tell that too!


----------



## taquitos

Okay thanks  Do you think I should add more red meat to the diet then? I usually buy chicken because he can crunch up the bones with no problems. I do sometimes get steak from the grocery store with a part of the bone in it, but he obviously can't eat the bone, so he just eats the marrow and the meat.

Could I maybe try other types of small birds? Like quail or something?


----------



## Kathyy

He is telling me you must get quail! There is also Cornish Game Hen which is a breed of small chicken. 

I would be offering necks and wings plus red meat rather than something like a thigh that is the whole meal most of the time. I buy chops on sale and cut out the bone, works fine if they are the cheapest cut.


----------



## PackMomma

Absolutely whole raw fish is okay to feed. I feed frozen, whole large sardines.. I get 8 or so for about $5, and I feed them 1 a week. I wait until there about half thawed, and I chop them up and feed them that way. They don't do so well trying to eat them whole as theyre slippery.. plus it just makes a nasty, smelly mess in my house. I also give wild salmon + fish oil supplement once or once every other day or so. More so this time of year as it helps their coat.

I would agree with trying to feed a bit more red meat, but your variety is pretty good. You feed what you can and offer as much variety as possible. My furkids are pretty lucky, as I'm able to feed about 12-14 different animal proteins per month. Chicken is the least of their diet, although I do feed quite a bit of turkey and duck, and our red meats that are fed weekly are beef, bison, lamb, goat, sheep, alpaca, elk and pork. Rabbit as well I feed usually weekly, but its pricier so definitely not as often. I have moose as well but I'm doing my best to save it as I scored some from a hunter in the fall and i'm trying to make it last.. usually, they get it once a month for a treat. Elk I can get no problem as there are plenty of elk as well as bison farms here so they are widely available. Deer & Moose I can only get when I wait around or look hard for it lol.


----------



## taquitos

I guess the reason why I don't feed as much red meat is just because there aren't many animals in this area with red meat that have small enough bones that my dog can crunch up. I've been having trouble finding meat with bone that isn't a weight bearing bone. Who would have thought it would be so hard to find raw meat? lol!


----------



## Gally

You don't need to stick to bone in cuts. If your dog needs extra bone you can feed a boney chicken piece. Besides ribs my red meat is generally boneless. We get heart often as it is usually very cheap.


----------



## PackMomma

Like Gally said, you don't need to feed bone-in ALL the time. My dogs eat pork ribs, which are totally edible for them, they also eat rabbit bones. Other then that, most red meat which comes from ungulates they eat all the boneless stuff. For bone-in meals I feed more duck and turkey over chicken, but I do feed whole chickens and chicken feet, and necks occasionally, but its not a huge part of their diet. Keep in mind to try and stick to the 80/10/10 ratio as best as you can. Most prefer to balance on a weekly basis as its easier. This guideline is based off of a typical animal carcass that wild canids would feed off of in the wild. Most animals are made up of %80 meat/muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. So out of all the meals you feed in a week, %10 should be bone, but that's just a guideline, some dogs need less, some need more. Judge by your dog and the stools.


----------



## MagicRe

i have a pug who does well on rabbit for bone in....and i feed red meat boneless, unless we're doing a teeth cleaning day with beef ribs.

red meat. good. if he gets loose with red meat, as mine do, follow up with a bony meal. but definitely increase his food by a little at a time...and one way to do that is to give him heart. not chicken or turkey, but beef, lamb, venison, etc.

that'll go a long way to fatten him up a bit.....and you don't need much. it can be a side dish.


----------



## Kathyy

Max eats a bit of bony chicken, some organ and the rest is boneless red meat at least half the time. Works just fine.


----------



## taquitos

I guess I am just a little obsessed/paranoid about him having clean teeth lol. I read somewhere that poms are notorious for horrible teeth, and on top of that since he's from a puppy mill, I have been including bone-in meals at least 4-5 times a week lol! Is that overdoing it? >_> His teeth look very clean but I'm not sure lol >_<

I've been giving him chicken hearts. I packaged up chicken backs, chicken hearts, and beef liver into daily portions a few weeks ago and I still have some left... but I'm going to go to the store sometime this weekend and I'll try to find some other type of heart


----------



## Sibe

Yeah that's probably overdoing it. The guideline is to feed 10% edible bone. The diet should be based on meat. If you give too much bone the dog will have very hard, painful poops or even get constipated. It can damage the lining of the intestines too when it's that hard.


----------



## taquitos

Well so far he hasn't had any problems. I did have an incident when I only fed him heart and organs, and he had explosive diarrhea. I think I will have to pair organs with edible bone @[email protected] I'm trying to make it less boney... I also picked up a GIANT beef kidney for $2... do you think he would be okay with eating mostly kidney for his organ for the week? Or would that be too much?


----------



## PackMomma

taquitos said:


> Well so far he hasn't had any problems. I did have an incident when I only fed him heart and organs, and he had explosive diarrhea. I think I will have to pair organs with edible bone @[email protected] I'm trying to make it less boney... I also picked up a GIANT beef kidney for $2... do you think he would be okay with eating mostly kidney for his organ for the week? Or would that be too much?


Of course he got explosive diarrhea from heart and organs. They are VERY rich. If you haven't already been doing so, its wise to introduce stuff like organs (liver especially) and heart (which is considered muscle meat) in small amounts and increase gradually. I also never feed heart or organs alone, I try to pair these with a boney meal, as for my dogs, I find it helps balance the stool since they will still get slightly looser stools from heart and liver, and the bone helps firm it up. I find kidney they're usually okay with. 

Kidney for the week would be fine IMO. Just feed in smaller amounts at first. I feed Bison and Elk kidney as its the only kidneys I can get my hands on, and I slice it in medallions and feed 1 or 2 slices to each dog a week. They will also get chicken, turkey or beef liver at some point in the week, very small amount with a boney meal. Both organs and bones should make up around %10 of the diet each, so be careful not to overfeed. Chewing bones is good for the teeth of course,but too much can be harmful.. so switch out some of the bone-in meals for non-edible recreational chew to help clean the teeth instead. Like beef ribs, or my favourite is bison or elk necks. They're a very complicated chew with a lot of meat in it, but they can't digest the bone.


----------



## taquitos

PackMomma said:


> Of course he got explosive diarrhea from heart and organs. They are VERY rich. If you haven't already been doing so, its wise to introduce stuff like organs (liver especially) and heart (which is considered muscle meat) in small amounts and increase gradually. I also never feed heart or organs alone, I try to pair these with a boney meal, as for my dogs, I find it helps balance the stool since they will still get slightly looser stools from heart and liver, and the bone helps firm it up. I find kidney they're usually okay with.
> 
> Kidney for the week would be fine IMO. Just feed in smaller amounts at first. I feed Bison and Elk kidney as its the only kidneys I can get my hands on, and I slice it in medallions and feed 1 or 2 slices to each dog a week. They will also get chicken, turkey or beef liver at some point in the week, very small amount with a boney meal. Both organs and bones should make up around %10 of the diet each, so be careful not to overfeed. Chewing bones is good for the teeth of course,but too much can be harmful.. so switch out some of the bone-in meals for non-edible recreational chew to help clean the teeth instead. Like beef ribs, or my favourite is bison or elk necks. They're a very complicated chew with a lot of meat in it, but they can't digest the bone.


PackMomma, thanks for the advice. However, I do not appreciate the tone that you are using when addressing my issues. I assumed that heart and liver for one meal would be okay as my cats are fine with just organ meals. I obviously learned the hard way and will not be repeating the incident again  I don't think I need to be told that it was obviously too rich for him considering I did not ask WHY he had explosive diarrhea. And if you didn't meant to come off condescendingly, I apologize in advance if the above offends you (I don't want to start drama, I'm just here to learn from those who have been doing raw longer than I have). There is no reason for me to introduce even more organs in his diet. He is already getting approx. 10% in his diet. He's been fed ground raw since the day he arrived at my home 

I just asked about the kidney because I know it's supposed to be 10% organs, but I haven't really found out which organs are essential, and seeing as most raw blends seem to have liver as the basic organ, I was just wondering if it was okay not to have liver in there for a week or so 

I am aware of the percentage for each things. I'm not a complete newbie to raw feeding (my cats are on raw), I've just never done the franken-prey model before  Since others have commented on how I am adding too much bone to his diet, I have gone ahead and started giving him meals several times a week that does not have any bone. I picked up some beef and pork a few days ago at the grocery store to balance out the amount of chicken legs/backs I have left  I have enough to alternate between bone in meals, and no bone meals now ^_^


----------



## PackMomma

Picked up my monthly custom dog food order yesterday, which consisted of..

Bison & Elk kidneys
Bison necks
Duck heads
Turkey feet
Turkey liver
Chicken necks
Boneless beef & pork chunks
Ground beef organs

I also stocked up on the Carnivora premade I feed occasionally as well, which are ground whole carcasses (bones and organs included):

Elk
Bison
Beef
Lamb
Rabbit
Turkey
Duck

My freezers prior to my recent orders was still stocked up with :

Pork riblets
Beef liver
Bison heart
Pork heart
Turkey necks
Chicken feet
Bison tripe
Elk tripe
Whole chickens
Turkey hearts
Chicken hearts
Chicken liver
Chicken gizzards
Elk necks
Whole sardines
Moose meat
Ground goat
Ground sheep
Ground alpaca
Ground pork organs
Ground sheep organs


----------



## MagicRe

taquitos said:


> I guess I am just a little obsessed/paranoid about him having clean teeth lol. I read somewhere that poms are notorious for horrible teeth, and on top of that since he's from a puppy mill, I have been including bone-in meals at least 4-5 times a week lol! Is that overdoing it? >_> His teeth look very clean but I'm not sure lol >_<
> 
> I've been giving him chicken hearts. I packaged up chicken backs, chicken hearts, and beef liver into daily portions a few weeks ago and I still have some left... but I'm going to go to the store sometime this weekend and I'll try to find some other type of heart


if you want him to have clean teeth, then feed him complicated chews. mine get lamb necks the size of their heads, whole ones...pork necks, bison necks....

i feed a lot of red meats of different kinds. i back it up with a bony meal because heart will make my dogs loose....

they also eat sardines....everything has something they need. if you stick to white meats all the time, you will be denying them the nutrition profile they need so badly. 

feed some red meat. let your pup get the full benefits....


----------



## taquitos

MagicRe said:


> if you want him to have clean teeth, then feed him complicated chews. mine get lamb necks the size of their heads, whole ones...pork necks, bison necks....
> 
> i feed a lot of red meats of different kinds. i back it up with a bony meal because heart will make my dogs loose....
> 
> they also eat sardines....everything has something they need. if you stick to white meats all the time, you will be denying them the nutrition profile they need so badly.
> 
> feed some red meat. let your pup get the full benefits....


I've posted a new thread with my new weekly menu  I have added more red meat into my mix. And I would absolutely not stick to just one protein... not at all. Even when I was feeding mostly chicken, I still gave red meat


----------



## MagicRe

taquitos said:


> I've posted a new thread with my new weekly menu  I have added more red meat into my mix. And I would absolutely not stick to just one protein... not at all. Even when I was feeding mostly chicken, I still gave red meat


most excellent.


----------



## Kathyy

This week Max has eaten
beef rib - very little bone eaten
organ mix ~ 20% of his meal a day as it is only half organ
tripe ~ 1 day's worth spread out over the week
turkey neck - half of one counted for 2 day's bone
turkey wing - half of one counted for 2 day's bone
pork chunks - lots of this with the bony stuff above and on its own for a boneless meal
ground chicken/organ mix/beef heart ~ 10% bone
ground rabbit/chicken/organ mix/tripe ~ 20% bone
several times he has had the scrapings from the morning's scrambled eggs as well

He also got fish oil caps and a bit of zinc supplement daily and a couple of vitamin E caps.


----------



## MollieLoo95

This is what I feed my dog.
Morning: ground pork or beef (approx 90% lean) & ground organs with ground fruits and veggies and a whole egg. 1 portion of Nature's Logic enzyme and mineral supplement.
Evening: whole sardine, turkey neck, chicken thigh.
Once per wk: whole meaty bone, i.e. beef


----------



## Linda1947

I have fed raw for years. Never had any issues with it

I buy chicken legs and thighs, grind them up bone and all, then freeze in bowls enough for one day then take out another bowl as needed. I mix the ground chicken with honest kitchen, this is dehydrated fruits and veggies, I feed like 2% of body weight. I also cook chicken in the crockpot, debone it and add some to the ground mixture. I also give a fish oil pill, 2 hip and joint tablets, and one vitamin. For dinner I give hamburg along with a heaping spoonful of "missing link" that is all the vitamins and minerals they may be missing in the diet.

I also make my own treats using beef heart, pork heart and kidney and sometimes boneless chicken breast.


----------



## taquitos

Last week Meeko got duck necks for the first time! He ate the following things:
- Beef kidney
- Venison, organ, chicken blend
- Beef, organ, rabbit blend
- Turkey leg
- Chicken gizzards
- Beef liver
- Duck neck
- Beef heart
aaaaand he got a bit of canned pumpkin with his turkey leg and duck neck, since those were the days when I fed bone 



Linda1947 said:


> I also make my own treats using beef heart, pork heart and kidney and sometimes boneless chicken breast.



Linda1947, I was curious, how do you make your own treats?


----------



## Chi Nation

*Beef, chicken, turkey, and venison with the beef liver, lung, and heart is what their menu mainly consists of. I follow they 80/10/10 prey model formula. Sometimes i will add some egg to it.*




























*I also give them soup bones to chew on to keep them busy if i ever have to put them in their crates...*


----------



## MagicRe

my guys don't always get a precise 70-10-10-5-5 ratio of protein/fat/bone/liver/other organs.....each has a different need. 

here's what they've been eating:

rabbit
rabbit heads for the brains and eyes
lamb spleen
bison kidney
bison liver
emu ribs and necks
turkey hearts
beef hearts
lamb hearts
venison trim and hearts
eggs
sardines
pork necks
lamb
goat with and without bone


----------



## Sibe

It's more of a guideline anyway ;-)


----------



## MagicRe

Sibe said:


> It's more of a guideline anyway ;-)


i know .....unfortunately, so many new ones don't. they try so hard to get those exact ratios.....i guess it's my disclosure....since i'm a little ocd and tried really hard in the beginning to hit those precise numbers LOL


----------



## taquitos

Last week I purchased a whole bunch of meat for Meeko, so I got the following:
- A salmon head
- Duck gizzards
- Duck necks
- Lamb chunks
- Beef stewing cubes
- Pork butt
- Chicken feet
- Chicken hearts
- Drumsticks (chicken)
- Beef liver
- Quails
- A whole duck

Sooo quite a lot of meat for a 7 lbs dog haha. As you can see, I've added a lot more red meat now ^_^


----------



## Kathyy

We humans bought a whole chicken for us this past week. We gave Max the back, ribs, neck and the various innards for his bone for the week cut into 2 day bits. Then I got a boneless beef rump roast out of the freezer and a tub of beef and pork kidney and liver. A couple times there was leftover cooked egg in his bowl as well. Sure sounds boring and potentially stinky but it never did get stinky and he never was bored.


----------



## Kathyy

Exactly! After the beef roast and chicken bony bits were finished Max got a whole prey item, baby goat. That lasted for 4 days because I let him get away with not eating most of the skin and lower legs. Right now and will also last 4 days he is working through a package of pork stew meat, little container of beef and pork organs as before with large pieces of lamb bone he chooses to take off as much bone as he needs. He gets a fish oil capsule daily and vitamin E a couple times a week as well. And there was a whole egg in yesterday's dish too.

So in *2* weeks time he got beef, pork, chicken, goat, egg and a small amount of lamb which is supplemented with fish oil and vitamin E. In a month's worth of meals he will also be getting tripe, rabbit and ostrich and I think there is a stray bit of turkey in the freezer as well.

For a smaller dog something that doesn't look like that much food can last a really long time! It didn't get smelly or fuzzy or green so it was good and next time we humans have whole chicken we will likely do the same thing.


----------



## LOSt

question for you guys- is pork hock safe for dogs? would it be a good chew? I saw it today at the grocery store and was thinking of getting one for roxy...


----------



## Sibe

Yep! Should be fine. Potentially a little on the hard side for a small dog. If it's making sharp pop sounds instead of satisfying crunches it may be too hard. She should be ok though, I'd try it. They are boney though, so may give painfully hard poos. I like to give an egg or organ with the chew, or have meaty meals, when I give a boney chew.

Make sure it's raw, not smoked.


----------



## taquitos

So my freezer full of raw finally ran out, so I went and bought more to stock up for the next couple of months.

This time on the menu:
- Chicken liver
- Pork kidney
- Beef stewing cubes
- Pork ribs
- Duck necks
- Goat

He still had quails and a whole duck left over from the last time. It's so hard shopping for him since he's so damn small and it's easy to overdo it >_<


----------



## PackMomma

MagicRe said:


> i know .....unfortunately, so many new ones don't. they try so hard to get those exact ratios.....i guess it's my disclosure....since i'm a little ocd and tried really hard in the beginning to hit those precise numbers LOL


I don't think I could feed raw and stay sane trying to stick to a strict ratio, I aim to feed the 80/10/10 roughly, but I know its never exactly that. Heck, I don't even weigh their food out exactly each day I usually just eyeball it. After a solid year of doing what I'm doing, I haven't noticed any issue's with my guys so I'll keep doing what I'm doing until they let me know otherwise lol.


----------



## jenny04

This is good site.


----------



## dane mummy

hi eveyone, i did post in another thread with no reply... hoping i may get one here , please  . keeping in mind im in australia so we dont have available some of the awsome variety u guys have. i have finally changed my danes over to raw!!! there is alot of negitive attitudes about feeding growing danes a raw diet... u guys all seem to know exactly what you are doing. my dane princess is 6 months old and my boy is 15 months. is there a need to feed my girl differently as she still has alot of growing to do??

for brekky they get a hole chicken frame each (hole chooks are miles to expensive)

for dinner they get a combination of a beef off cuts mince and a chicken off cuts mince (all the stuff that ppl wont eat i guess). 

add ins are tinned fish, hole egg, necks from lamb, mutton, chicken feet, trotters, pig ears, goat cube, tongue and need to get some tripe and heart??? if i give one add in , ebery other meal is that ok???


----------



## taquitos

dane mummy said:


> hi eveyone, i did post in another thread with no reply... hoping i may get one here , please  . keeping in mind im in australia so we dont have available some of the awsome variety u guys have. i have finally changed my danes over to raw!!! there is alot of negitive attitudes about feeding growing danes a raw diet... u guys all seem to know exactly what you are doing. my dane princess is 6 months old and my boy is 15 months. is there a need to feed my girl differently as she still has alot of growing to do??
> 
> for brekky they get a hole chicken frame each (hole chooks are miles to expensive)
> 
> for dinner they get a combination of a beef off cuts mince and a chicken off cuts mince (all the stuff that ppl wont eat i guess).
> 
> add ins are tinned fish, hole egg, necks from lamb, mutton, chicken feet, trotters, pig ears, goat cube, tongue and need to get some tripe and heart??? if i give one add in , ebery other meal is that ok???


http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf

This should answer your questions  Usually puppies need to get 6-8% of their body weight, not 2-3% I think. You also need to make sure they are getting the proper organs/bone/muscle meat ratio (5% liver, 5% kidney or other organ, 10% bone, 10% muscle meat).


----------



## Sibe

Recent menu has included

Organ:
Pork spleen (aka melt)
Pork brain
Beef liver
Beef kidney
Beef sweetbread

Meaty Meat & Bone-In Meat:
Chicken thigh
Chicken drumstick (cats only)
Chicken leg quarter
Chicken split breasts
Chicken heart (mostly for cats only)
Chicken gizzard (mostly for cats only)
Mice (cats only)
Turkey neck
Beef heart
Pork heart
Pork roast
Whole sardine (pilchard really, they are ~6" long)


----------



## dane mummy

thank you so much


----------



## Kathyy

This week Max and Ginger have been eating
Bony chicken
Bony lamb
Beef trim
Beef liver
Beef kidney
Pork trim
Pork liver
Pork kidney
Egg - got several dozen from a friend. I am cooking it for training treats.


----------



## ufimych

Most of you have excellent choice of natural meat foods for your dogs, I am envious. My dogs eat what I can find cheap: venison obtained by hunting, sometimes whole rabbit, groundhog or squirrel. I also buy chicken legs for them. When I run out of raw meat, I feed kibble, 27% protein.


----------



## dagwall

This should all last for 2+ months as I'm only feeding a half raw diet. The pork kidney and liver will last even longer, I'll have to buy more muscle meats before I run out of organs for sure.

Chicken quarters
Chicken drumsticks
Chicken feet
Chicken gizzards
Chicken hearts
Chicken liver
Pork shoulder (lots of skin and fat)
Pork ribs
Pork kidney
Pork liver
Beef green tripe-ground
Beef ground
Beef heart
Beef trachea with gullet
Beef lung
Salmon


----------



## Sibe

Recent menu

Beef heart
Beef kidney
Beef liver
Beef sweetbread
Whole chickens
Chicken liver
Sometimes get some chicken hearts or gizzards which are mainly for the cats
Whole rabbit
Whole sardines
Pork roasts (shoulder/arm/butt)
Pork belly
Pork spleen
Pork brain
Turkey thigh (boneless)
Turkey drumstick


----------



## taquitos

From this month's haul:
- Pork heart
- Pork tongue
- Pork ribs
- 2 mature chickens (got them for $2.49 each!! SO CHEAP)
- Chicken feet (just for recreational chewing)
- Chicken hearts
- Duck neck
- Beef cubes
- A pickerel
- Turkey wings

We're trying a new method of bagging (3 days' worth at a time). We'll see how it goes


----------



## BubbaMoose

taquitos said:


> From this month's haul:
> - Pork heart
> - Pork tongue
> - Pork ribs
> - 2 mature chickens (got them for $2.49 each!! SO CHEAP)
> - Chicken feet (just for recreational chewing)
> - Chicken hearts
> - Duck neck
> - Beef cubes
> - A pickerel
> - Turkey wings
> 
> We're trying a new method of bagging (3 days' worth at a time). We'll see how it goes


Wow! This looks so legit!

And...boba. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Pugtown

This is what I used in my last batch of ground raw:

duck necks
beef tripe
duck gizzard
chicken heart
sardine oil
coconut oil
green powder supplement
chia seed
bee pollen
small amount of pureed frozen fruit


----------



## taquitos

This month we have...
- Pork neck, butt, heart, liver, kidney
- Quail
- Whole chicken + some hearts
- Veal lung
- Sirloin beef


----------



## dagwall

Just placed my next order with my supplier

5# roll ground beef
5# roll ground green tripe
1 whole beef heart
3# salmon chunks
2# roll ground beef lung
2# roll beef pancreas
1 tub pork brains (1#)
2# roll 50% rabbit/50% beef

Still have from previous purchases
pork liver
pork kidney
chicken quarters
turkey necks
pork ribs

plan to buy from the Asian market
chicken feet
chicken hearts
chicken gizzards

Should last another 2+ months


----------



## taquitos

blackfoxik said:


> what do you thing about feeding young puppy with raw meat? is it good for them?


Yes young dogs can definitely do a raw diet  Just make sure it is balanced!


----------



## Losech

My dogs currently get:
Chicken
Ground beef
Beef liver
Eggs
Oats
Rice
Supplements

To go into a bit more detail...
I am feeding 4 dogs. Two Border Collie x Labrador Retriever mixes (45lbs and 50lbs), 1 Shiba Inu (25lbs), and 1 Hokkaido Ken (32lbs). Everybody but the Hokkaido are altered. The Shiba gets half as much as the Girls. The Hokkaido gets a little less than the Girls.

I buy 10 pound bags of chicken quarters and hack the thighs and drums apart. For the smallest dog I hack the back strip off the thighs. Each dog, depending on size and the outside temperature, gets either a thigh or a drum. (Or a back strip for the little dude.)
I get 5 pound chubs of ground beef and pull off a hunk for each dog. How much they get depends on the dog and the temperatures, again. 
Every dog gets at least one egg a day. Right now the Girls are getting two because they blew their coats and have no insulation.
I make a pot of oatmeal with either white or brown rice every day. I use just over a cup of oats/rice with about a quart of water. I split this between the dogs with the Girls getting the most, then Katana with a dash less, and Conker getting the least.
Everybody gets a hunk of beef liver depending on size.
Supplements I use are: Fish oils for omega 3's (2 capsules each), liquid vitamin E, ground roasted chicory root for digestive support, kelp for iodine and trace minerals, zinc powder 'cause there isn't much zinc in what I feed, probiotics (if needed, mainly for the Shiba), glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM for the Shiba, and powdered cranberry for Sasha (incontinence support or something like that).

I don't measure anything except the supplements. They get more or less of a given ingredient based on size, body condition, and temperature. The dogs are currently staying outside since I am visiting relatives who do not want them in the house. So, they get more food than usual, and more fat than usual as well.


They usually get about the same at home, but I use beef heart instead of ground beef with everybody but the Shiba. He's dumb and won't eat beef heart. He gets either chicken hearts or ground beef. Sometimes I use pork instead of red meat, or in addition to it, or turkey instead of chicken. They get game meats from what I hunt, and in the warmer months, ground or lightly cooked organic veggies from the farm I work at.


----------



## Pugtown

Upcoming ground batch will include:

16 lbs duck necks
9 lbs beef/lamb/goat meat
2 lbs beef tripe
2 lbs beef kidney
1 lb beef spleen
2 lbs beef heart
CarnivoreRaw without calcium


----------



## Kathyy

The dogs are getting boring but tasty
chicken ribs for Max
lamb ribs for Ginger
pork shoulder meat
beef shoulder meat
pork and beef liver
pork and beef kidney
this week plus a mineral and zinc supplement, fish oil and vitamin E.


----------



## [email protected]

I feed our dogs twice a day. Their protein comes from raw chicken (whole, cut up from a meat market that has the chickens there, no meat from a massed produced grocery stores, chicken hearts, livers, ground up deer meat (they love) . For the sides they get veggies plus some rice, boiled just right. Veggies you must do research on because each have such a side effect however given in the right amount of doses they can do wonders for their health, immune and coat. The veggies are always scrubbed clean. Carrots, sweet potatoes, watch the amount of greens, celery, kale (which gives them such much nutrients), pumpkin (dogs with gland issues works wonders), there are many more that can super beneficial for your pups. They will eat some of them raw, I give my dogs diced up sweet potatoes and apples as treats instead of store bought bones they love them. Carrots too as well they think its a bone and teething toy, works with my younger pit bull she used to tear up everything.


----------



## RockySC

Hi guys, I'll make this quick.

We have had a Siberian kitten/cat who is now two years old. We have feed him Blue Ridge Beef raw that entire time. See here...

http://www.blueridgebeef.com/index-home.html

We now have an 8 week year old Boston Terrier. Is it fine to give our new girl Betty the same raw that we have been feeding our cat? I don't see why not, but I just want to make sure. We recently bought a large lot of the food so we have plenty right now. Thanks!


----------



## ireth0

RockySC said:


> Hi guys, I'll make this quick.
> 
> We have had a Siberian kitten/cat who is now two years old. We have feed him Blue Ridge Beef raw that entire time. See here...
> 
> http://www.blueridgebeef.com/index-home.html
> 
> We now have an 8 week year old Boston Terrier. Is it fine to give our new girl Betty the same raw that we have been feeding our cat? I don't see why not, but I just want to make sure. We recently bought a large lot of the food so we have plenty right now. Thanks!


I'm not an expert on raw but I do know cats and dogs have different nutritional needs. I wouldn't expect to be able to just grab the same stuff your cat eats and have it be nutritionally complete for the dog too.

From that website it looks like they sell both already mixed products for dogs and cats as well as plain meats that you'd have to mix and measure yourself. They can eat the same KIND of meat, but I wouldn't presume the pre-done cat mix would be okay for a dog.

I just know you have to be very specific and careful about the measurements when you feed raw food so I would be cautious about it. It seems odd to me that they'd advertise a mix as being okay for both.


----------



## taquitos

ireth0 said:


> I'm not an expert on raw but I do know cats and dogs have different nutritional needs. I wouldn't expect to be able to just grab the same stuff your cat eats and have it be nutritionally complete for the dog too.
> 
> From that website it looks like they sell both already mixed products for dogs and cats as well as plain meats that you'd have to mix and measure yourself. They can eat the same KIND of meat, but I wouldn't presume the pre-done cat mix would be okay for a dog.
> 
> I just know you have to be very specific and careful about the measurements when you feed raw food so I would be cautious about it. It seems odd to me that they'd advertise a mix as being okay for both.


PMR is no different for cats or dogs so I don't see why it would be any different. My old work had the same mix for dogs and cats. 70% muscle meat, 10% heart (for taurine for the cats but also nutritious for dogs), 10% bone and 10% organs. My dog gets the same ratios as my cats as well, but my cats get more heart and smaller bone-in things (chicken wings VS pork ribs).


----------



## ireth0

taquitos said:


> PMR is no different for cats or dogs so I don't see why it would be any different. My old work had the same mix for dogs and cats. 70% muscle meat, 10% heart (for taurine for the cats but also nutritious for dogs), 10% bone and 10% organs. My dog gets the same ratios as my cats as well, but my cats get more heart and smaller bone-in things (chicken wings VS pork ribs).


Very interesting! I noticed on that website that some of the formulas don't include organ meat, why would that be? Would they just be presuming you're adding the organ yourself?


----------



## taquitos

ireth0 said:


> Very interesting! I noticed on that website that some of the formulas don't include organ meat, why would that be? Would they just be presuming you're adding the organ yourself?


I have no idea. Didn't have a good look at the website, sorry! Was replying to your comment  No organs then I have no clue! We always included organ in ours...


----------



## Kathyy

The only difference is cats need taurine added and a finer grind than dogs. An all meat/bone/organ raw ought to have the lower mineral content cats need. Dogs can eat food meant for cats but cats cannot eat food meant for dogs unless some things are added. 

Go for it. Feed for the adult dog, if she might be 20 pounds all grown up start out with 6-7 ounces a day split into 3-4 meals and feed more or less depending on her body condition and stool. 

Ginger is getting a beef rib for dinner. Most of the meat was cut off and she got that for breakfast.
She has had a fetal beef leg, beef chunks, pork chunks and an egg this week and I had better get a chub of ground tripe/organ mix thawed as she has only had a chunk of pork kidney and a couple tiny bits of beef liver for organs so far.


----------



## Gally

The reason they probably have mixes without organ meat is because some owners prefer to feed one meal of organ a week to equal the full 10% organ for the week and then feed organless meals the rest of the week. I can sometimes get great deals on whole organ locally so I wouldn't want to spend extra on a premix that includes it.


----------



## dagwall

Gally said:


> The reason they probably have mixes without organ meat is because some owners prefer to feed one meal of organ a week to equal the full 10% organ for the week and then feed organless meals the rest of the week. I can sometimes get great deals on whole organ locally so I wouldn't want to spend extra on a premix that includes it.


Yep, I buy some ground meats but I don't get any premixes and feed a weekly amount of liver one day and other organ (usually kidney) another day. I can't bring myself to fully trust the premixes to be balanced and a lot of them don't always tell you exactly what's in them.


----------



## Gally

I prefer PMR feeding so I don't buy any premixes. I find the commercial raw to be overpriced in my area as well.


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## Flaming

Well this week will be 5 days of turkey. I just have to chop it into meal portions first. Then a day of fish (I have a halibut to try Manna on) and day 7 will probably be elk meat with beef organ. 

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## d_ray

Jewel got a lot of organs this week since I was lacking them previously. She had pork spleen, beef liver, pork liver, pork kidney. She also had chicken, salmon, and beef heart.

Next week, I plan to give her chicken, beef heart, ground beef, liver, kidney and fish. 

Salmon is her favourite. Should I try to limit it? I usually feed her about a pound a week split up throughout all her meals.


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## Kathyy

A pound of salmon is fine per week for her. I just wouldn't want it to be the dominant protein you give her.


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## kadylady

Loved reading this thread while considering making the change to raw and very glad that I did, both dogs are doing awesome!

Here's what our menu consists of currently (Critiques welcome, note we started raw mid January this year) I started the dogs on Blue Ridge Beef (BRB) ground products, first chicken w/bone then beef w/bone. That is still a large portion of the diet but have been starting to add more whole meats and would like to decrease the amount of ground as we continue. It was kind of a convenience and easing into it thing in the beginning.

Typically they have been getting chicken thighs or quarters 2-4 times a week in the evening. The other meals consist of boneless beef (BRB), venison w/bone (BRB), turkey w/bone (BRB), puppy mix (BRB - beef, chicken, orgran, bone mix), chicken hearts & gizzards, chicken liver, beef liver, whole eggs. They get fish oil with their AM meals. Have been trying to decrease the bone content a bit so I have been feeding more of the boneless beef, especially before and after a bone-in chicken meal, or sometimes I will just cut the bone out of a chicken thigh depending on what the previous meals have been. We have only done liver so far for organs and I feel like they are ready for the "other organ" so going to pick up some beef kidney this weekend. Would also like to try pork soon.


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## JenBen

Feeding raw has been the best thing I could have done. Im feeding

Chicken thighs with bone in
Eggs
Beef, tongue, heart, muscle, lungs, green tripe, and fat
Whole rabbits
Lamb everything except liver and kidney
Venison everything except liver and kidney
I also add in pumpkin peas and carrots in addition they get a vitamin supplement to make sure I am not missing anything.


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## Sniper

My puppy is 11 weeks today and is doing awesome on raw. He eats about 3lbs of meat a day, is 28lbs and doing awesome. He only poos once a day and its very small and dry. As compared to the first week I had him he was eating kibble and was going like 7 times a day, I think he crapped more then he ate. 

I am a hunter so I have tons of game meat, deer, bear, ducks, pheasants. I also buy chicken thighs and pork butt. I constantly mix it up. I also with every meal drop in a few pieces of freeze dried beef liver treats. It's 100% freeze dried beef liver. So I just drop in a few. 

Of the wild game he's eating more what I would have ate but it's ok it's last years left over and I don't mind my dog eating it, after all he's part of the family now. Hunting season is approaching and normally I throw away a lot of unwanted parts that are not great for us. So ill be keeping all that now for him. Ill have 3-4 months of food for him just this season. But I will continue he to buy chicken to mix in their.


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## JenBen

Make sure you give fruits and vegetables to make a balanced diet. If you are feeding the whole animal they will get the gut load so thats good. Also make sure wild animals stay frozen for 3 weeks. That will kill off any potential bacteria or paradites.


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## taquitos

JenBen said:


> Make sure you give fruits and vegetables to make a balanced diet. If you are feeding the whole animal they will get the gut load so thats good. Also make sure wild animals stay frozen for 3 weeks. That will kill off any potential bacteria or paradites.


The fruits and veggies are debatable 

Most PMR feeders do not feed fruits and veggies. My dog gets fruits and veggies on occasion but it does not make up very much of his diet (I would say less than 5% of his diet is veggies). Never had any problems. Neither has my friend who has fed her dog PMR without fruits/veggies for the past 6 years.

Of course, some dogs are not okay with not having any fruits and veggies! But from my experience it's not the most essential part of the diet.


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## Gally

Is he getting something besides beef liver treats for his organ intake? I would also be wary of the bear meat. Do you know what the risk of trichinosis is in your area?


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## Sniper

Gally said:


> Is he getting something besides beef liver treats for his organ intake? I would also be wary of the bear meat. Do you know what the risk of trichinosis is in your area?


Trichinosis is in all bears and swine. It effects us so we cook our meat. Dogs can handle it, just like raw chicken would kill us but doesn't phase them. Dogs are used up here to hunt and kill bears. Many times the dogs are rewarded with raw fresh bear meat. All lived. All my wild meat is frozen first regardless.


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## JenBen

Yes your correct. 5% is fine unless you feed gut load then you dont need it. Just think about deficiencies when your feeding strictly meat and bones


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## d_ray

Jewel is getting the following this week to next week: beef kidney, beef liver , salmon head, a whole chicken, and boneless beef brisket. It cost about $20 and hopefully will last a week and a half. 


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## d_ray

She will also get some eggs thrown in. 


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## kadylady

We got some lamb to try last month and they love it! So the last couple weeks they have been getting mostly lamb and beef, along with beef liver and beef kidney, an egg a few times a week and sometimes (once a week maybe) a couple spoonfuls of Grandma's Lucy's (friend gave me a huge bag for free, Luke loves it Zoey is eh about it) and also their fish oil. Chicken is about to come back into the rotation as the lamb runs low.


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## d_ray

JenBen said:


> Yes your correct. 5% is fine unless you feed gut load then you dont need it. Just think about deficiencies when your feeding strictly meat and bones


Mine barely gets any veg and no fruit. I don't think it's necessary on PMR.


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## d_ray

kadylady said:


> We got some lamb to try last month and they love it! So the last couple weeks they have been getting mostly lamb and beef, along with beef liver and beef kidney, an egg a few times a week and sometimes (once a week maybe) a couple spoonfuls of Grandma's Lucy's (friend gave me a huge bag for free, Luke loves it Zoey is eh about it) and also their fish oil. Chicken is about to come back into the rotation as the lamb runs low.


I would love to find some affordable lamb. I have a hard time finding affordable red meat. I often resort to heart and pork.


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## tasha1987uk

Can you feed this type of diet to help a puppy put on weight?


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## Flaming

tasha1987uk said:


> Can you feed this type of diet to help a puppy put on weight?


Yup, Manna had trouble keeping weight on until we started on raw. Now I'm thinking of reducing her food, she's starting to get squishy ribs.


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## tasha1987uk

My malamute is currently under weight so we thinking of starting him on raw and dry food


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## Sibe

Satin/fat balls can be a help too. I made these for a foster dog who was really skinny, hadn't eaten for 10 days at the shelter she was so scared:
*Fat Balls:
Full recipe / half recipe*
10 pounds ground beef / 5lbs
10 ounces uncooked oatmeal / 5oz
6 raw eggs / 3 eggs
10 ounces wheat germ / 5oz
10 ounces molasses / 5oz
Combine all ingredients and mix well. Roll into one-inch balls and freeze. (Can make them larger for larger dogs)


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## JenBen

I start my puppies on raw chicken and beef at 4 weeks. They are already fat from momma who is also raw fed.


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## kadylady

The lamb is gone and Zoey is sad. She also hates quail. With a passion. As in, refusing to eat if the quail juices touched any part of her food. Luke is a vacuum and I'm convinced he doesn't even taste half the time. Duck is coming Friday! Zoey better love it.

Past month Luke has been eating quail, beef and chicken, beef liver and kidney, eggs, tripe and fish oil. Zoey has been eating the same except turkey in place of quail.


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## kadylady

The duck has been a big hit! Zoey approves very much. She's almost forgiven me for the quail incident. Crossing my fingers that I may be getting a venison hook up with some hunter friends...


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## taquitos

kadylady said:


> The duck has been a big hit! Zoey approves very much. She's almost forgiven me for the quail incident. Crossing my fingers that I may be getting a venison hook up with some hunter friends...


Hahaha that's so funny that she hated quail so much!

I'm lucky my guy isn't picky  He eats everything.

The other day I gave him a rabbit head... ughhh. It was like, the size of his own head... but no problem, just crunched it all up and ate it ewww


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## LOSt

taquitos said:


> Hahaha that's so funny that she hated quail so much!
> 
> I'm lucky my guy isn't picky  He eats everything.
> 
> The other day I gave him a rabbit head... ughhh. It was like, the size of his own head... but no problem, just crunched it all up and ate it ewww


did you just give him the entire head? i tried getting rabbit at the store once (previously frozen) froze bits because it was too much to feed her, next time I tried feeding it to Roxy, she completely refused to eat it...


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## taquitos

LOSt said:


> did you just give him the entire head? i tried getting rabbit at the store once (previously frozen) froze bits because it was too much to feed her, next time I tried feeding it to Roxy, she completely refused to eat it...


My boyfriend smashed a hole into the middle of the head to make it easier to split, but yeah, essentially he ate the whole thing. I did not cut it in half or anything besides making that hole.

My dog isn't picky at all. He will eat stinky days-old meat if I let him LOL. I usually buy my meat refrigerated (not frozen), and then I cut it up, bag it, and then freeze it and defrost for serving. He's never refused a meal.

Maybe just a bit of tough love? He tried at the beginning to be a bit picky because he never had raw, but I didn't give him anything else, so he learned pretty quickly.


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## kadylady

taquitos said:


> Hahaha that's so funny that she hated quail so much!
> 
> I'm lucky my guy isn't picky  He eats everything.


She's a princess. Thankfully Luke eats anything and everything.


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## diamondluvpits

Hello, everyone I'm about to get my new pitbull puppy next week , and wanna do Raw diet . any help, options with help
Thanks


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## diamondluvpits

I'm from PA. , where are y'all from?


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## taquitos

diamondluvpits said:


> Hello, everyone I'm about to get my new pitbull puppy next week , and wanna do Raw diet . any help, options with help
> Thanks


Check out Preymodelraw.com and http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com/prey-model-raw.html for a complete guide

Congrats on your new pup!


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## Kathyy

I am so excited! There is a big box of elk trimming and chicken feet in the freezer now.

This week Ginger will be getting

Tripe organ blend
Scrambled egg as she doesn't care for raw.
Beef trim
Elk trim
Chicken feet for about half her bone
Big lamb bone mostly for chewing rather than eating
Stinky whole rabbit/chicken with bone/organ mix grind


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## guinga

Hi, your sample menus are really helpful and inspiring but I'm new to barf and a vegetarian trying to understand the different parts of meat....PLus, I can't get much variety yet, too new..
My 48kg bernese mountain has been on barf for 17 days now. His stools are still not solid but not liquid and very little. He's been on chicken and chicken bones and I added a little bit of beef yesterday and today. Unfortunately I couldn't see his stools; saw him doing it in the garden but it was dark and very rainy although I did try my best to find "it" with my little torch.
I'm trying to get organised and will get a freezer. Found a supplier (I'm in France) of frozen meat for zoos wo can sell in bulk : duck necks, beef, chicken necks and a ground mix of chicken bones and meat (which I don't like because it's hard to calculate the bone/meat ratio).
My questions : could I feed duck necks everyday (I heard chicken necks could be too small for a big dog)? could I feed beef nearly everyday? How many more meats should I include for the diet to be balanced? I can find pork and maybe a bit of sheep sometimes. As for offal can I give beef heart regularly? I think I can find liver easily as well, and maybe duck tripe.
Thanks for any help. I'm finding the change to barf quite overwhelming but I'm convinced of its benefits. It's quite hard to accept all this meat at home being a vegetarian but if I can get organised and buy in bulk nd prepare in advance I think it'll be fine.


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## Kathyy

If you don't know the percentage of a grind then feed it to proper stool consistency. Ginger's rabbit[bony]/chicken[bony]/organ mix is much too bony for her so I feed half of that and half boneless and she is comfortable. The heart/chicken[bony]/organ grind she gets is perfect as is.

If I could only feed two proteins I would hope one could be venison or beef. The commonly heard mantra of variety really only holds if you are offering a variety of red meats. A variety of mostly bird meat wouldn't be a good diet unless ostrich was one of the meats! The things you are able to feed sound like a fine variety.

Heart is not organ, it is fed as muscle as is lung. Organs need to be half liver and half any other organs. Other organs are usually kidney but spleen or gonad or brain or eye or thyroid count as well.

Poor Ginger has never had any duck necks and I haven't even seen duck necks in markets so no idea whether they are appropriate for a big dog. Some medium sized dogs can swallow turkey necks whole, I would assume turkey necks are larger than duck necks. You must know your dog, some enjoy this food and take their time and others swallow as fast as they can. Best thing to do is to buy one of the items in question and try it. Some people cut things like necks into chunks or smash them up, I would do that if I happened to buy a good amount of something my dog gulped.

Tripe is the stomach of ruminants that chew cud like deer, cattle and llama. Duck stomach is not tripe. You can feed it but be aware that it isn't tripe!

Please stick to plain chicken before moving to another protein. Sometimes the dog's gut gets into an uproar that can be hard to recover from. If stool has been too soft for 2 weeks then consider cutting back on the amount fed and/or cutting back on the amount of fatty skin fed and/or using bonier pieces of chicken. Do just one at a time but it is possible that her gut will only settle down if you offer up something extreme like 75% of what you had been offering of skinned chicken backs! One would never feed a dog such a diet for very long but to get the gut settled down some dogs need to do something like that.


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## Sibe

I just stocked up on pre-Thanksgiving sale. All for $1.99 a lb:
8 whole ducks (was tempting to get even more, but even at 1/2 off they were ~$10 each. They are also 130mg sodium per serving which is a smidge high but my pets NEVER get duck because it's always stupid expensive)
4 twin packs of turkey drumsticks
4 twin packs of turkey thighs


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## taquitos

Sibe said:


> I just stocked up on pre-Thanksgiving sale. All for $1.99 a lb:
> 8 whole ducks (was tempting to get even more, but even at 1/2 off they were ~$10 each. They are also 130mg sodium per serving which is a smidge high but my pets NEVER get duck because it's always stupid expensive)
> 4 twin packs of turkey drumsticks
> 4 twin packs of turkey thighs


Nice!

I'm doing a freezer "cleanup" right now. I portion all the meals so I often have bits and pieces that are leftovers that I end up freezing. I keep meaning to use them for the next batch, etc. but I just forget to defrost them and then it's too much work lol! So I've just been defrosting whatever is in the freezer and feeding it to Meeko.

So far he's gotten some pork tongue, pork neck, and I don't remember the cut, but it's some sort of beef that is very sinewy. I have a ton of lung and a bunch of other organs left, but I'm going to defrost those and use them for my next batch, which I will hopefully be able to make this weekend.

I also ahven't been measuring his portions.. oops. But he hasn't gained any weight so I'm not worried.


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## Sugarplum

I have been feeding raw for about 3 weeks now and so far they have been doing great on it! Jasper eats a little fast sometimes and pukes it up and has to re eat it blech. Lol but he's learning to chew better and lunis refuses to eat the backs/necks unless they are cut into mouth sized pieces but once cut she chew them thoroughly!!

Poos look great as well some mucus still but small and normal looking otherwise.

Anyway I wanted to share what they're eating so far and what I plan to feed once they're fully transitioned
They eat roughly the same amount.

They get 1/2 a chicken back or turkey neck(I alternate every other day--reason they don't get a whole one is a whole neck or back would be almost the entire portion of food they eat every day and they wouldn't get anything else) 
Then they get pork(loin,Boston, shoulder w/out bone etc) 
And they have been getting canned sardine for the past 3 days

Like I said so far they've been doing well

I plan on adding beef heart to their daily diet and then liver and kidney

So after fully transitioned their main daily diet will be
1/2 chicken back/turkey neck
Pork
Beef heart (I might alternate every other day between the pork and heart)
Sardine 
Liver/kidney(beef and pork respectively) I'd rather give them their 10% over the week

Then I will probably give egg a few times a week 
And whenever I have other things available they will get that instead of pork or beef heart(heart I can get for .99 a lb where the cheapest cut of beef muscle I can find has been $4 a lb!!! 

I do have about 10 lbs of beef muscle I can feed sometimes(some people staying with us left it there from 2012 so it was old and freezer burnt! Yay free food) and I have some deer and elk and moose I can give every once in a while but I won't be able to get those things on a regular basis) and ill give other meats as I find them on sale or free from cl

Does that sound good? Anything that doesn't sound right? Or something I should change?
Any input is appreciated!


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## Kathyy

Looks good to me. See if you can offer half beef heart/half pork. After a couple months you may need to cut back on the bones more. It sounds like about half the diet's weight is those very bony meats? That would put the total bone content of their diet at 25% or more where you want more like 10%. So in time you might be offering those bony cuts every other day rather than daily. Take your time though. 

Okay Ginger's diet this week. She generally gets 4 ounces of raw stuff daily.
Fetal calf head. Ate all but part of the skin and immediately went into the sink for a bath. Didn't weigh it but it probably weighed at least a pound as the whole calf was about 20 pounds.
Venison trim
Organ/tripe mix a couple times
Chicken ribs, neck, liver
Couple eggs when nothing was defrosted

She is getting some pork next week as pork shoulder was on sale, more organ/tripe and if she is really lucky I will defrost and pack up the 10 pound lump of frozen chicken feet I have been avoiding for months.


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## Sugarplum

Kathyy said:


> Looks good to me. See if you can offer half beef heart/half pork. After a couple months you may need to cut back on the bones more. It sounds like about half the diet's weight is those very bony meats? That would put the total bone content of their diet at 25% or more where you want more like 10%. So in time you might be offering those bony cuts every other day rather than daily. Take your time though.


I can definitely do half pork and half beef heart for the most part.
If they are getting 2% then half a back/neck is about 1/3 of the wight they need a day. Right now I've been feeding a little less to start so it is about 1/2 their diet. Once fully transitioned on the beef and organs I will cut back and bones and watch poos and see how it goes.

I keep hearing conflicting info on raw salmon/trout. Some people say absolutely never feed some say it's ok when its frozen? Reason I ask is I have some wild caught rainbow trout from Canada that's been in our freezer for a few years and I was wondering if I can feed it? 
So are the salmonoids/trout ok as long as it's been frozen? Or should I just bake it first? Thanks


----------



## Kathyy

Fish from certain drainages in the Pacific Northwest can be infected with a canine specific parasite, that is the reason for avoiding feeding raw salmon/trout although other fish species can be infected as well. One of the parasite's hosts is freeze sensitive so drainages further north in Alaska are free of this parasite. The parasite itself is supposed to be killed by appropriate freezing. Up to you, chances are the fish is just fine but those that have lived through dealing with a bout of salmon poisoning won't feed raw fish!

Wiki's short article on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_poisoning_disease


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## Sugarplum

Yeah I'd rather not risk that. Would baking it be ok? I figure yes since it's ok to feed canned and that's obviously cooked?

Thank you


----------



## Kathyy

I'd probably simmer it so any juices would be easily fed but baking is fine. Just be good and sure to take out all the bones!


----------



## Sugarplum

Ok thank you.

I just found out I can get cow lung and pancreas and stomach(that would be green tripe right?) and probably any other goodies as well.
I had called several places before I settled on the place I've been getting everything (except my pork) from and every other place said you had to be licensed or using it for research purposes but when the lady at the butcher/slaughter said a guy got stomach and another got pancreas I asked about lung too and she said you just had to sign a paper saying that you wouldn't eat it yourself!!

So I will be able to offer lung as well as other goodies lol 

I bought liver and kidney but I won't be starting that for a few weeks but when I do start it I want to make sure I give the right amount after they get used to it.
Going off 2% body weight they are supposed to eat about 14.4 oz a day(might change as I go on body condition but we'll start with that for now lol) anyway so for 7 days that would mean 100.8 oz a week 10% of that would be about 10 oz right?

So 5oz of liver and 5oz of some other organ(I bought kidney to start)...did I do the math right? Lol

Is tripe fed as organ? I can't remember

Thank you


----------



## taquitos

Tripe is fed as muscle meat... and it's a great muscle meat because it has the perfect ratio of phosphorous to calcium!

As for the calculations it should be:
Weight of dog * 0.02 = x
x * 0.05 = 5% for each organ


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## Sugarplum

ok so for a 45 lb dog? 
45x.02= .09
.09x.05=0.045?
Ugh I'm terrible with math lol what does that mean? .045 of a pound? Per day? That doesn't seem right lol


----------



## Flaming

Sugarplum said:


> ok so for a 45 lb dog?
> 45x.02= .09
> .09x.05=0.045?
> Ugh I'm terrible with math lol what does that mean? .045 of a pound? Per day? That doesn't seem right lol


for a 45lbs dog if you're feeding 2% a day (though I see many dogs doing better on 3%)

45*.02= 0.9LBS a day or 0.45LBS twice a day

that breaks down to 
0.72lbs meat
0.09lbs of bone
0.045lbs of liver
and 0.045lsb of other organ


----------



## CrimsonAccent

So I might be starting this raw feeding thing (finally!). Obviously the way to get the household on board is to fawn over Acana/Origen/expensive as heck kibble--> "we might as well make our own food for that price--> "what about raw?" LOL

I read/skimmed this whole monster thread. Thanks for the Texas Green Tripe link! (I know hare-today has more variety, but I'd rather save the shipping money. I'm in the DFW area so). I'm still in the research/planning stage, but how about this hypothetical menu? (Chicken only for now as the first protein)

Chicken backs, heart, liver, gizzards. And possibly a different boneless cut (that's cheaper than heart) or for variety.

Gizzards would cover the non-liver organ requirement, right? I'd definitely add kidney (beef and pork kidney were available on the site, but not chicken unless I missed it) when I can find it/when I add another protein. And then heart/breast/thigh for muscle. Backs for bone? (I've assumed this is a bony cut, if I'm wrong please let me know)

And now my main question. I know it's a guideline, but for the purposes of planning, how do you calculate bone/what are the bony cuts? (Sorry I think this has been said a million times in this thread and I'm just being a slow poke). Like, oh a back is 16oz and half bone, so it counts as 8oz of bone?

And then size wise I'm trying to figure what is appropriate (I don't mind having a bone too big as I can take it away if they can't get it but rather not go too small for choking hazard). So here's the dogs:

Cupcake--70-80lbs--hasn't been weighed in a while.
Gingerbread--70lbs--similar jaw size
Donut--the new puppy! don't have an exact weight yet, coming soon. (Projected adult weight 40-50lbs)

I'm assuming chicken leg quarters would work for the big girls and he (Donut) could do smaller things like necks?

Cupcake and Gingerbread have had oxtails and beef neck bones as treats. We're trying Donut on beef neck bones tomorrow. So I'm not super worried about them "getting it".

Yeah, sorry about the novel.


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## Sugarplum

Thank you I have been feeding them about 2.5% really I'm afraid if I feed any more they will become over weight as they are definitely holding their weight at that amount lol

CrimsonAccent
I can't help much because I'm still new  but usually you start with high bone meals like backs and necks and quarters and then gradually add things like heart and other muscle meats 

Gizzard is considered a muscle idk how much you will end up paying for heart near you but that's the cheapest thing I can get besides lung(also fed as a muscle) second cheapest is different cuts of pork I can pretty regularly find under $2 a lb.
I get my stuff from a place where they slaughter beef on site(and sometimes pork)  lol so I can get it fresh every Monday(when they kill) beef heart is only .99 lb and I can get liver and kidney as well as lung,pancreas,and green tripe! All those things are very cheap from them so you might call around and see if there are any places like that near you 

So that's not too bad, you want to offer as much red meat as possible once fully transitioned

So how I started was 
Chicken backs( added chicken gizzards and hearts randomly through transition from this to turkey necks)
Turkey necks 
Pork
Fish
Beef 
and then I'll be adding liver next and then kidney

I offered each item until they had solid poops (usually around a week or so but this beef heart is much richer than anything else so they will have to be on it longer than everything else before I switch to organs) and then started on the next food along with the previous bony food( for example when I started pork I gave chicken back and some pork) 
You want to be more bone heavy at first and I started out smaller than their 2-3% 

The chicken quarters would probably be good for the bigger dogs, necks might be too small depending on how small the pup is. Saw his pic in your other thread btw and he is adorable <3 
Anyway I hope I have been some help until some more experienced people come along


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## CrimsonAccent

No, that's really helpful. I found another site I'm considering as it's free shipping anywhere in the continental US if you order 50lbs. 

I realized gizzards and lungs were considered muscle after further googling lol, but thank you  

I'll probably do chicken first as that's what everyone has recommended but I'm almost wondering how they would do on beef? (Solely because they've gotten oxtail and beef neck bones before so it's not entirely "new" to their system. Of course a snack is different from your main meal, so.) Just more of a theoretical question, I don't seriously plan on jumping to that as chicken is relatively cheaper and proven to be easier for most dogs. 

I think neck may be OK for Donut? All three dogs had beef neck bones tonight (bigger than chicken or turkey I'd assume) and they seemed a little small for Cupcake and Gingerbread, but not small enough to make me worry (these dogs chew these, no gulping so far).

So while we are in the chicken phase something more like--

Chicken backs/quarters/necks/wings for bone. The necks and wings for Donut depending on how small he has when I make the dive.
Gizzard/heart/breast/etc for muscle
Liver and kidney for organ?

And is the stuff I find at Kroger alright? Because that would be easier on my wallet (employee discount) but it seems like the sodium might be too much.

I'm looking forward more to the red meat phase lol. Mark down city! (Chicken is less often in the mark down bin, but still there).

I haven't seen kidney in grocery stores around me, so I'll have to hunt a bit or order it I think. 

Oh, one last silly question. Anything considered a RMB are the main bony meals, right? Or do other things fall into that category. I know bone is in the name, but I'm just getting hung up on details. Which, once I'm actually doing this, probably won't be as big a deal. 

EDIT: Actually going back over, I'm not seeing any other chicken organs other than liver or heart so if I did a beef organ with everything else chicken how bad of an idea would that be? (I'm still going to keep looking).


----------



## Sugarplum

I don't know how'd they'd do on beef as a starter since necks have so much bone and very little meat and I know beef(I started with regular muscle steak meat for a few days before the heart) is definitely taking much longer than the pork before they have had solid poos lol

Chicken necks are pretty small from what I've seen so depending on the dog you probably wouldn't want to feed them to dogs over 15-20 lb? Turkey necks are quite a bit larger and the wings would probably be too small for the larger dogs as well 

So for cupcake and gingerbread I'd probably start with backs or quarters and for donut start with possibly necks and wings. 
You'll want to wait until all muscle is added before adding organs usually. From what I have read I wouldn't bother so much with the chicken breasts as it's not as nutritious so once they are doing well on bony chicken backs etc then start on turkey necks/wings for the little one. And then it's usually recommended to add pork and then fish and then beef then organs and other meats gradually. That way you are starting with the easier to digest foods and slowly transitioning to the richer foods(basically the darker the meat the richer it is grass fed and wild game is more rich)
You might be able to transition pretty quickly since they are already used to getting some raw stuff 
But that being said my dogs have gotten ahold of some raw hamburger before...oops lol and their poop was perfectly normal the next day but when I switched to raw and started the chicken backs they had very runny stool for the first few days and their poo was very mucosy(sp?) for several weeks(off and on) while they were adjusting so it's hard to say how they'd do after going completely raw 

The only organs in stores near me is liver and it's much more expensive than the butcher I get it from which I have to get kidney from anyway lol
Chicken might be ok at the store where you work it just depends on if they add salt or not I think it has to be under 80 mg?

I found this explanation on rawdogranch.com (don't know if that's a good source for information or not it seems like a good site but this explanation is correct at least and I wanted to make sure to give credit)
Raw Meaty Bones (RMBs) - are any item that has both meat and EDIBLE bone. Some examples of RMBs are chicken leg quarters, backs, necks, wings, turkey necks, whole fish, rabbit legs, ostrich necks, beef neck bones, pork neck bones, duck wings, pheasant backs, ox tails ... and so on.

Leg bones of large animals - like deer or cows - are NOT RMBs. These are recreational bones. Most dogs cannot actually consume the bone in a leg bone of a cow. The bone is much too hard (it was meant to carry the weight of the cow). Even beef knuckle bones - a softer bone - are recreational. They take too long to consume to be considered part of a meal.

Also, the size of the dog can determine if an item is part of a meal or a recreational bone. For my German Shepherds, a pork neck bone is easily edible. For my Chinese Crested it's a recreational bone to be chewed on for days!

Another consideration is that some RMBs are bonier than others. For example - a chicken neck has much more bone than a chicken leg. If the only RMB I could feed were chicken necks, I would lower the percentage of RMBs and increase the percentage of Muscle Meat.

Hope that helps 

And that's kind of where I'm at now getting hung up on little details and specifics lol but I think I have all the general stuff down haha


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## NicoleIsStoked

I have what may be a stupid question, but i can't seem to find the answer anywhere. right now my dog is getting a premade ground raw diet and i'd like to move to homemade raw. not sure if i want to do BARF style or prey model yet. anyways, when looking at the ratios of 80/10/10 how to do know the ratio of meat to bone when feeding a whole part?
for example, if i'm going to feed chicken drumsticks, short of deboning them and separately weighing the meat and then the bone, how do i know how much of each i'm feeding?


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## Sibe

NicoleIsStoked said:


> I have what may be a stupid question, but i can't seem to find the answer anywhere. right now my dog is getting a premade ground raw diet and i'd like to move to homemade raw. not sure if i want to do BARF style or prey model yet. anyways, when looking at the ratios of 80/10/10 how to do know the ratio of meat to bone when feeding a whole part?
> for example, if i'm going to feed chicken drumsticks, short of deboning them and separately weighing the meat and then the bone, how do i know how much of each i'm feeding?


 Not stupid at all! I find this site helpful. http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search

You can search items like "Chicken, broilers or fryers, drumstick, meat and skin, raw" and this comes up: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/865?manu=&fgcd=

Click "Full Report" and you'll see:
Carbohydrate Factor: 3.87 Fat Factor:9.02 Protein Factor: 4.27 Nitrogen to Protein Conversion Factor: 6.25 
Refuse: 66% Refuse Description: *Bone and cartilage 33%,* Bone and connective tissue 33% 

So that means on an average drumstick, you've got 33% bone.


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## NicoleIsStoked

Thanks so much!


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## eduller

A question for the experienced people.

I have been feeding my 4 month old puppy raw since a couple weeks after I got him. It's mostly pre-made raw, as I am still going through some of the trial/sample orders of the premade. Once that starts running out, I am going to start rotating foods with a mix of: some premade raw, some raw using a premix, some semi-homemade using a pre-grind of meat/bone/organ from a local co-op, and some RMB. 

So far, he has only had chicken for RMBs. Neck, backs, wings, and legs. I have bought a couple of whole chickens on sale and cut them up for him. I can easily do the same with turkeys. But in terms of other meats or other bones/cuts of meat to provide variety - what do you ask your butchers for specifically? Like, if you were to walk into a brand-new butcher that you had no relationship with already, what would you say and what would you ask for? I have several local markets and specialty grocers and tons of ethnic markets (lots of asian and TONS of middle eastern/halaal meat markets).

I have Asperger's syndrome and have a hard time "winging it" in conversations and especially when I'm asking a person directly for something. I do much better if I go in prepared with a list of items or things I need to ask about. I basically need a script in order to do this. I have been just buying what I find on sale at regular "big box" grocery stores, but in the interest of cost-savings as well as variety, I need to branch out and go to some of these new places. Can anyone list exactly what you ask a butcher for or what you would look for specifically at an ethnic market or even just a regular specialty grocer? There is a rather large halaal butcher around the corner from my home which I have never visited, but judging by the signs in the windows, they probably have a very large variety of meats. I also have an almost unlimited number of asian and polish markets very close to home. I keep pulling into the parking lots to go in, but I chicken out (no pun intended lol). Thanks in advance.


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## Beta Man

What is now in freezer awaiting puppy's arrival:

10 lbs of chicken gizzards/livers
2 whole beef hearts
5 lbs liver (beef)
40 lbs of chicken necks/legs backs/wings
15 lbs of boneless/skinless chicken breasts no sodium (start him with some good stuff!)
5 lbs of beef kidney/pancreas 
4 whole chickens without sodium
4 beef tongues


I am avoiding pork, but will get/freeze fish once I find a cheap option.

Currently I would say I'm about $2.25/lb, but under $2/lb if you don't count the chicken breasts.... I actually threw one oh the chicken breasts on the smoker for myself before freezing the rest!


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## NicoleIsStoked

Sibe said:


> Not stupid at all! I find this site helpful. http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search
> 
> You can search items like "Chicken, broilers or fryers, drumstick, meat and skin, raw" and this comes up: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/865?manu=&fgcd=
> 
> Click "Full Report" and you'll see:
> Carbohydrate Factor: 3.87 Fat Factor:9.02 Protein Factor: 4.27 Nitrogen to Protein Conversion Factor: 6.25
> Refuse: 66% Refuse Description: *Bone and cartilage 33%,* Bone and connective tissue 33%
> 
> So that means on an average drumstick, you've got 33% bone.


thanks again Sibe for this link. i'm finding it really helpful as i plan this all. a few more questions if you guys don't mind me picking your brains! 

where for chickens it mentions 33% bone/cartilage and 33% bone/connective tissue- why are we only counting the bone with the cartilage and not with the connective tissue?
Also, should I be feeding skins? and if so is there a certain percentage?
over how long of a period of time is it safe to balance out the diet? a week? a month? somewhere in between?
what is the opinion on feeding ground beef? and if its okay how lean am i looking for?


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## Sibe

NicoleIsStoked said:


> thanks again Sibe for this link. i'm finding it really helpful as i plan this all. a few more questions if you guys don't mind me picking your brains!
> 
> where for chickens it mentions 33% bone/cartilage and 33% bone/connective tissue- why are we only counting the bone with the cartilage and not with the connective tissue?
> Also, should I be feeding skins? and if so is there a certain percentage?
> over how long of a period of time is it safe to balance out the diet? a week? a month? somewhere in between?
> what is the opinion on feeding ground beef? and if its okay how lean am i looking for?


 Connective tissue is not similar to bone, it's things like tendons. Great source of glucosamine.
To start, I don't feed skins as too much fatty stuff = cannon butt (explosive poops) so for the first week or so I remove skin as is reasonable to do, don't obsess about getting every last bit if it doesn't come off cleanly.
I try to balance over a week. I think a great way to do it is to buy what you need for a month (assuming you have the space to do so) then you know that you had balance over the month.
Ground beef is not frowned upon, but is not really encouraged either. It's expensive, it's not whole so there is no chomping-into-meat benefit, it's eaten quickly, grocery store ground meat tends to have a lot more bacteria and it's from many, many different individual animals all ground up together. It's GREAT to use for introducing organ to a picky dog, great as an occasional other source of protein, and great for stuffing in Kongs! It has its place but most people don't seem to feed it regularly. Get 80/20, not the lowfat kind. Fat is good for doggies  But if there's an awesome sale on 93/7 or whatever then grab it.


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## NicoleIsStoked

my dog is only 15 lbs so having room for a months worth is not an issue. in fact, thats been the plan all along. i've calculated how much of everything he needs for a day/week/month but what i'm struggling with most is finding a small enough source of bone so that i can feed some bone everyday to keep good poops. my dog does best on 2 meals a day but that means that he gets really small portions because he only gets 0.3 lbs for the whole day. according to that USDA link, bone in chicken breasts are 20% bone which means that 3.6 lbs of breasts would fulfill all his bone requirements and half his meat requirements for the month. but a chicken breast is probably more than a whole day's worth of food. even small parts like wings/necks seem to be 2-3 days worth of bone each :/


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## Kathyy

Just cut the breast to size, it is easy to get through those ribs with scissors or a knife. Ginger is 14 pounds and if you can find chicken feet or necks they are a good size of bone for a small dog. A neck would be an every other day bone, a foot a daily bone. I buy bone in breast and do a very poor job of boning so there is still quite a bit of meat on the bone. Humans get the meat, she gets the bone cut into ~1 ounce bits fed daily along with meat/organ. You might be able to cut necks in half and wings are fine cut into 1/3s for Ginger, might be for your small dog as well. Try it but don't repeat the experiment if you are uneasy about dog wanting to swallow without enough chomping.

Ginger has been very easy in regards to fewer bony meals but keeping good stool quality. I had a lot of trouble with Max though. Turned out he did okay if he got bony meat with the organ alternating with plain meat days. In addition to that I fed bigger meals on bone days. Conveniently he ate 10 ounces a day or 20 ounces over 2 days. I fed him 12 ounces on bone/organ days and 8 ounces on meat days. He happened to eat once a day but it is possible to do the same for dogs fed 2x a day. Ginger sure notices that the dish has 1 ounce rather than 2 but she doesn't have an upset tummy if she gets short rations for a day. I used chicken feet and small whole fish as my crutches while working through attempting to get his gut used to bone every other day as a single chicken foot was 1/2 his daily bone and fish even less.


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## NicoleIsStoked

you guys are the best! what would i do without you? lol

one last question, hearts and gizzards both count as muscle meat right? not organ?


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## dagwall

NicoleIsStoked said:


> you guys are the best! what would i do without you? lol
> 
> one last question, hearts and gizzards both count as muscle meat right? not organ?


Yep those are muscle. Only secreting organs count as organ meat. So lung is also muscle meat.


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## Flaming

Sigh...Vitae NEEDS 5 pounds a day to keep a good body condition...in perspective that how much Manna eats and Manna is about 100lbs heavier than Vitae and about 80lbs above Vitae's predicted adult weight.


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## NicoleIsStoked

one more stupid question please! this may be an obvious one but i'm a vegetarian so i'm kind of lost with all these meat "parts"
A grocery store nearby has "chicken legs with backs attached" on sale for $1.77/lb. What exactly is this? Obviously theres a drumstick and what else? a thigh? what counts as a back? i'm just trying to figure out the bone content using that USDA link but i'm struggling.


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## Mesonoxian

NicoleIsStoked said:


> one more stupid question please! this may be an obvious one but i'm a vegetarian so i'm kind of lost with all these meat "parts"
> A grocery store nearby has "chicken legs with backs attached" on sale for $1.77/lb. What exactly is this? Obviously theres a drumstick and what else? a thigh? what counts as a back? i'm just trying to figure out the bone content using that USDA link but i'm struggling.


That sounds like chicken quarters with the back attached. It will have a pretty high bone content, in that case. I'm not very familiar with prices in Canada, but I can get chicken leg quarters for $0.95/lb regularly in a grocery store, so you can probably find a better deal. Just the leg quarters will have a slightly higher MM % than legs with back, I think. And don't worry about the different names for everything, it comes with time - I'm still learning! (Vegetarian here, too!  )

ETA: Chicken leg quarter is drumstick and thigh still attached to each other.


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## Mesonoxian

Lena currently gets around 10-13oz/day (depending on the day). We do organs every 3rd or 4th day. Bone-in meals are generally organ days. We feed one meal a day to keep the meals larger and encourage non-gulping habits! 

Depending on what we have stocked in the freezer, our menu changes, but here's a "sample" week with what we currently have:

Monday:
Chicken leg quarter, eggs

Tuesday:
Beef heart, ground green tripe

Wednesday:
Chicken leg quarter, chicken liver, beef kidney

Thursday:
Salmon (lake caught), ground green tripe

Friday:
Beef heart, egg

Saturday:
Chicken leg quarter, chicken liver, pork kidney

Sunday:
Salmon (lake caught), ground green tripe

Lena also gets Nupro Silver and Bug-Off Garlic Granules daily. Puréed fruit/veggies are fed occasionally, depending on what we have float through the house. (also fish oil when we don't have oily fish in the menu rotation)

We're still working on finding affordable variety. Lamb/mutton and pork are out because Lena is allergic. 

Here are some things we've fed in the past, and likely will again:
ground venison
ground rabbit
whole whiting
turkey hearts
ground beef
goat pancreas
pork liver
beef liver
duck feet
chicken feet
beef spleen
chicken gizzard
turkey neck
whole chicken


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## Xeph

My crew is relatively new to being raw fed, and even then it is only partial (I feed kibble on the road).

I will say once you get started, things become much easier. I am a very anxious person by nature and had a very hard time with the idea, but once I got going, I felt better.

The bulk of my dogs' diet comes from super market chicken with other meats rounding out the variety (this makes feeding raw the most affordable for me). I recently joine a co-op, which really helped. I can order quality meat in bulk and have an order of just under 200 lbs of meat coming to me for $145.25

It consists of a variety of things, including one commercial mix (Eureka Hi Pro mix IIRC). I also got a ton of tripe, venison, salmon, and 50 lbs of bones to make bone broth for my Old Man dog.

I have a local supplier as well that can provide me ground meats (with bone and organ), which I also use. I get my "novelty meats" (rabbit, duck, lamb) from her, as well as organs. She has a ground organ mix I REALLY like and it is easy to dole out to the dogs.


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## NicoleIsStoked

Mesonoxian said:


> That sounds like chicken quarters with the back attached. It will have a pretty high bone content, in that case. I'm not very familiar with prices in Canada, but I can get chicken leg quarters for $0.95/lb regularly in a grocery store, so you can probably find a better deal. Just the leg quarters will have a slightly higher MM % than legs with back, I think. And don't worry about the different names for everything, it comes with time - I'm still learning! (Vegetarian here, too!  )
> 
> ETA: Chicken leg quarter is drumstick and thigh still attached to each other.


So does that mean that if a Chicken leg is 27% bone and back is 44% bone then combined they average 35.5% bone?


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## Kathyy

Close enough. If the back is half the weight of the whole then that is right, the back probably isn't half the weight of the piece though. I think the chicken quarters are generally a pound around here but the half leg quarter back Ginger gets is definitely not 8 ounces, more like 3-4.

Don't worry too much about getting it precisely 'right'. Mostly remember that feeding half the diet in backs, carcasses, skinned chicken necks and the like is a really bad idea as you would be feeding 22-37% bone where feeding half the diet in meaty chicken like breasts and legs is about right. I like feeding super bony stuff like ribs, backs and necks so I can feed more red meat. Ginger gets about 20-30% of her food as bony chicken.


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## NicoleIsStoked

So last night I went shopping for all the meats and today I weighed everything out, portioned and packed it all. 
I wound up getting:
4.5 lbs of skinless bone-in chicken breast 
1.2 lbs of beef heart
2.4 lbs of beef chuck
0.5 lbs of pork spleen
0.5 lbs of beef liver

This is a months worth of food for my dog. He eats 9 lbs a month. For next time I'm going to try to incorporate a little more variety with proteins. Maybe some turkey or lamb. But for a start, how does this look?

All this cost me roughly $30. I know that's probably a lot but as I get more comfortable making portions I'm going to look for cheaper cuts.

When I was cutting up the chicken breasts I noticed that the large bone that runs lengthwise (sternum?) is quite hard. Is this consumable?


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## Kathyy

Looks fine to feed a dog that has been on raw for at least a month. Have you started him out already? Each of the meats you listed needs to be introduced separately for a new to raw dog.

I leave the sternum on the ribs and 14 pound Ginger eats it fine, she had ribs+sternum this morning in fact. I wouldn't take it off in case your dog decides it can be swallowed whole and I probably would save ribs+sternum meals for a couple weeks as it is a heavier bone. New to raw dogs don't have stomach juices that can digest bone quite as well as later on plus they have a tendency to hurry and not chomp as much as they ought to. The more broken up the bone the easier time the gut has dealing with it. Delicate flower Max did okay with chicken wing bones but thigh bones were tougher for him at first, took several months before his gut did a good job digesting them.


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## eduller

Okay how OCD do I need to get about weighing/ratios of things?

I have made a couple of batches (one goat/chicken/beef and one fish) of completely balanced ground food - I did the maths for 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organs, and then I add about 20% of that total weight in vegetables on top of his daily allowance. So, he gets 8 oz per meal (3 meals for 24 oz total) of the meat/bone/organ mixture plus about an ounce and a half-ish of whatever vegetables and fruit I have handy that I steam and puree. 

I've been trying to add in more RMBs and chunks of meat, but so far it has been just chicken parts at dinnertime 3-4 times a week and he has had some goat chops and a couple random other things. I got whole organic chickens (Costco has great prices, and they come with ALL the organs) and just broke them down. I usually give him maybe half a back with a whole thigh and a roughly even chunk of liver to other organs, and I typically cut a strip off the breast to go along with it. But since this isn't a daily thing (yet), I haven't been super careful about weighing and getting the bone/meat ratio right. I have been careful to add in pure meaty items with more boney items, and his poop has been fine.

So how DO you get the ratios right? Or do you not have to be that specifically careful if you are feeding the whole animal over the course of a couple of weeks? Like say I gave him a 6 oz chicken thigh. That would be just over 4 oz of meat and just under 2 oz of bone. So in order to get that to be an appropriate ratio of meat to bone, I'd have to add in like 12 oz of boneless meat, which would be way more than he should have in one meal. Or as long as he is pooping okay and I know that over time, he's getting a whole animal, do I not have to worry about that balance? 

On top of that, I also plan to branch out to RMBs other than chicken - pork/beef ribs, more goat chops, lamb pieces, etc. How do you balance that meat/bone ratio when you KNOW you aren't going to be able to feed an entire cow or pig in a week? Do you just cut the RMB small enough so that you can add enough boneless meat to make it not too large of a meal? 

My head is spinning.


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## Sibe

At first I weighed things out. By "at first" I mean for probably the first couple years. The last couple years I can eyeball things well enough, and I'm not as paranoid about scheduling meals. Something meaty, something meaty, something boney and hey let's add an egg today, fish and meat, boney, something meaty, oh they haven't had organ in like a week oops let's do a couple meals with organ... I really don't worry about the 80-10-10 so much. I give a lot of meat, meat with bone 2-3x a week (split chicken breast, chicken leg quarter, sometimes pork ribs or such), the one thing I do try to stay on top of is the organ and giving 5% liver and 5% other over the course of the week. Usually have one meal with liver, one meal with other. I also give whole frozen fish about once a week so that factors into organ (and is also bone and some meat, mostly I give it for the Omega 3).


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## NicoleIsStoked

Kathyy said:


> Looks fine to feed a dog that has been on raw for at least a month. Have you started him out already? Each of the meats you listed needs to be introduced separately for a new to raw dog.
> 
> I leave the sternum on the ribs and 14 pound Ginger eats it fine, she had ribs+sternum this morning in fact. I wouldn't take it off in case your dog decides it can be swallowed whole and I probably would save ribs+sternum meals for a couple weeks as it is a heavier bone. New to raw dogs don't have stomach juices that can digest bone quite as well as later on plus they have a tendency to hurry and not chomp as much as they ought to. The more broken up the bone the easier time the gut has dealing with it. Delicate flower Max did okay with chicken wing bones but thigh bones were tougher for him at first, took several months before his gut did a good job digesting them.


 He's been on raw for 2 months now. But it's been a commercially available ground raw diet. As for proteins he's has chicken, turkey, beef, pork, duck, and salmon. Did fine on all of them. 
I've done bone in chicken parts supplementary for years. Mostly necks and backs.


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## Kathyy

I still weigh out meals! Ginger gets 4 ounces a day, hard to eyeball that.

When I started I only used whole bits of meat and had only part of a combo frig/freezer to use to store his food. What I did was buy exactly 10% bone encased in meat plus organs plus the extra boneless meat needed then I packed it up into daily bags. Some bags would have more bone than others but over the month it came out exactly what Max needed. When I do that now I pack up 2-3 days at a time as the packing for Ginger's 4 ounces a day is tedious and 3 days is fine in the frig and I use foil as the meats don't freezer burn as bad and I can recycle the foil.

Right now there is 8 ounces of a meat/organ/tripe grind and ribs/back/neck of a chicken in the frig. Ginger is getting 2 ounces of that chicken for breakfast and 2 ounces of the grind for dinner one day and 2+2oz of the grind the following day which comes out to about 10-12% bone. Then I watch the poop, perhaps I need to feed 1 boney meal + 2 grinds or cut that chicken smaller and add some grind to it.

Really most of the reason we emphasize 10% bone is to keep people from thinking just chicken is good or feeding just meaty bones is okay. Feed meat! Then feed enough bony stuff to suit your dog's gut and buy enough organ for the month and done. I only feed small amounts of organ at a time but some raw feeders like to feed it weekly. If he happens to really adore that big pork neck and eats twice as much as you figured then no bone for 1-4 days and feed a good sized hunk of liver the following day to take advantage of the stool firming bone. If you got sick of looking at that organ grind in the frig and give him 2x the usual to finish it off then give him a bony bit the next meal.


----------



## Okami Mallorii

I'm still adjusting my meals with Kirito... I'm so used to feeding ferrets and cats that I'm having issues finding the appropriate bone amount with Kirito. 

Once a day (it varies between morning and evening) I feed some kind of poultry... Usually its bone-in chicken (leg/thigh quarters, breasts, backs, chicken feet)... Several times a week its ground turkey/turkey necks... Occasionally I throw in chicken heart and/or livers, but I usually need the chicken hearts for my ferrets. 

For the other meal he gets one of the following:

Pork heart
Pork spleen and liver (he gets one organ meal a week)
Pork meat with bone
Pork ribs/riblets 
Pork neck/neckbone
Pork chops

Salmon (usually just canned salmon since its easy and cooking doesn't really alter fish)
Mackerel
Tilapia 
Whiting

Ground beef
beef liver (he hates beef liver though.... and it breaks me out) 
Beef tongue (He rarely gets this since its so expensive)
Beef kidney (this is included with the organ meal when I can get it.. the store doesn't always have it) 

Whole eggs


He never gets any vegetables, fruit, grains... or anything non-meat.
I'd feed tripe if I had access to green tripe... I have yet to find it in stores and I can't do an online order until I get a chest freezer.

Whenever I get a chest freezer he'll also get deer.. There have been several freshly killed deer that I've found beside the road that I've wanted... but I couldn't get them because I don't have space. 


He also apparently enjoys whole rabbits... :l I may get these for him in the future.. I may not... All I know is it will take me quite a while before I would be able to give him one.


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## Kathyy

He is new to raw, aim for just one bony meal a day in a couple of months. Dog freezer was my best birthday present ever a few years back!

Ginger's diet is boring but she doesn't seem to mind. Right now she is working on meaty bones from a whole chicken we humans ate so getting just
1/4 Bony chicken
3/4 Beef grind that includes liver, kidney and green tripe


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

McGee is about 1 month into raw feeding and he is doing great!! I do have a question though...Typically I feed him all of the meat frozen because I do not want to deal with thawing it out and rotating...So, is it ok that it is being served frozen??? Thank you!


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## Kathyy

It's that hard to keep a little tub in the refrigerator? I pack in 1-3 day packets at the moment and have little tubs for the meat to stay in the frig.

It can be okay for some dogs. If he gets tummy aches then it is possible the cold food upsets him. I've read that hard frozen can break teeth but you would know if he was chewing too hard. Some people won't even give dogs ice cubes as it is hard on teeth to get cold like that.

On topic,

This week dogs have had
chicken feet
organ blend
ostrich liver
rabbit/chicken/organ blend/stomach grass
ostrich trim
beef trim
egg

I'm getting a packet of venison bone/trim out for tomorrow.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Kathyy said:


> It's that hard to keep a little tub in the refrigerator? I pack in 1-3 day packets at the moment and have little tubs for the meat to stay in the frig.
> 
> It can be okay for some dogs. If he gets tummy aches then it is possible the cold food upsets him. I've read that hard frozen can break teeth but you would know if he was chewing too hard. Some people won't even give dogs ice cubes as it is hard on teeth to get cold like that.
> 
> On topic,
> 
> This week dogs have had
> chicken feet
> organ blend
> ostrich liver
> rabbit/chicken/organ blend/stomach grass
> ostrich trim
> beef trim
> egg
> 
> I'm getting a packet of venison bone/trim out for tomorrow.


Ah, good point. I will think of something that is easy peezy to deal with.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

I have two questions:
After receiving meat from the butcher, do you freeze the meat for a few weeks before letting them eat it?
I just received turkey necks, and didn't realize how large they were! For a 75 pound dog, is 1 whole turkey neck a good rmb?
Thank you!


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## Kathyy

Max said turkey necks were the best RMB ever. I gave him half at a time partly because I seldom found them, partly because they are so bony. The huge pound sized ones were enough bone for a week, ~50% bone means 8 ounces of bone and 38 pound Max got an ounce of bone a day. So he got that nice big bone with organ for the other meal of the day, next day boneless meat and day after usually little bone like whole fish or chicken foot so diet was roughly balanced for 3 days. The neck took him about 20 minutes to eat, a satisfying meal but not particularly interesting one like pork neck or pelvis or shoulder bone or short rack of beef ribs which can take an hour to clean and gnaw.

I never freeze first. Doubt my home freezer gets cold enough and most meat is frozen before sale anyway. Most of the dog meat comes frozen at the moment anyway. I pack the thawed meat into 2-3 day packets, label and freeze. You probably could use bins as you are feeding 3x the dog pounds I feed but the pound packets I make up are better just wrapped in foil. The packets never come out even, each meal I weigh to see if there is enough for another meal and either get out another packet or just add an egg to make the weight needed.


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## coz

Frozen meat is a pain in the ass to cut through, so when I get it from the butcher I cut it up into pieces and put some in baggies to last him that day's breakfast and dinner and the next days breakfast and dinner. Then when he gets his dinner from his last saved baggie that's thawed, I take some from the freezer outside and put it in the fridge to thaw for morning breakfast and repeat.

He likes to chew on frozen meat so sometimes I freeze strips and give them as snacks through the day, especially if it's an active day like hiking or swimming and I know he will use a lot of energy and will need a mid day snack.


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## LolanPepe

My husband brought home a 6 week old shih tzu puppy yesterday. I'm trying to feed everyone raw for the first time this week. I gave the puppy some chicken breast. I gave the pug two drumsticks and the german shepherd I gave 1/4 of a whole chicken. They all seemed to like it. I just want to make sure I'm feeding enough. Also since the puppy is so tiny I wasn't sure what is ok for her.


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## Annageckos

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> McGee is about 1 month into raw feeding and he is doing great!! I do have a question though...Typically I feed him all of the meat frozen because I do not want to deal with thawing it out and rotating...So, is it ok that it is being served frozen??? Thank you!


I feed one dog frozen, he has problems with thawed meat. He doesn't like the texture and will most of the time throw it back up if it's thawed. He loves liver but will only eat it frozen. He'll try to eat it thawed, but keep spitting it out. I feed the others thawed though. I worry about them getting too cold in the winter, my basset hound will shiver if he eats frozen in it's cool out. I wouldn't feed anything larger than chicken bones frozen though, I'd be afraid of a chipped tooth.



LolanPepe said:


> My husband brought home a 6 week old shih tzu puppy yesterday. I'm trying to feed everyone raw for the first time this week. I gave the puppy some chicken breast. I gave the pug two drumsticks and the german shepherd I gave 1/4 of a whole chicken. They all seemed to like it. I just want to make sure I'm feeding enough. Also since the puppy is so tiny I wasn't sure what is ok for her.


Aim for about 2-3% of your adult dogs ideal body weight to feed daily. Small dogs eat more, up to 5% of their ideal body weight. For a puppy you can feed 10% of their current body weight or 4-5% of their expected adult body weight. With that each dog will vary, and it's only a starting point. Some dogs need more, some dogs need less. My 75lb GSD use to eat large chicken leg quarter a day. The calculations suggest she eat 1.5 lbs, but that was way too much for her, she ate less than a pound a day. Same for my dane, she eats less than 2lbs a day and is looking great. My lab/pointer has a higher metabolism and can eat a bit more, but still less than 2% of his ideal body weight. I don't weigh food anymore, I've been raw feeding for over 10 years. I look at my dogs and see how they are doing and base what they get off that. When we are more active they eat more. In the heat of summer they eat less, Vegas(lab/pointer) by choice.
Get a scale and weight the food for the first few months so you get a feel for what the food weighs. Watch your dogs and increase or decrease as needed. I personally would feed lighter in the beginning to let their bodies adjust. Loose stools or runs are common in the beginning, also overfeeding can cause loose stools. You can also feed a bit more bone, if needed to firm things up.


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## Kathyy

LolanPepe said:


> My husband brought home a 6 week old shih tzu puppy yesterday. I'm trying to feed everyone raw for the first time this week. I gave the puppy some chicken breast. I gave the pug two drumsticks and the german shepherd I gave 1/4 of a whole chicken. They all seemed to like it. I just want to make sure I'm feeding enough. Also since the puppy is so tiny I wasn't sure what is ok for her.


Agree, a scale is pretty essential when starting out and I still need it after feeding fresh food for 8 years, raw for 7. Lumps and strips are hard for me to estimate weight!

You did good, chicken breast has tiny bones for a tiny pup, a quarter was a good size for a large dog and drumsticks are likely about the right amount for the pug. If you weighed the bits likely pug was a bit overfed and GSD a bit underfed is all. Now is the interesting part, the poop. The first couple are moderated by kibble in the gut so don't get cocky! If you see loose poop first remove skin from the following meal. If that doesn't help enough then feed bonier meats as in a couple of deskinned wings or the back. I prefer to feed the small jointed bits of chicken rather than the long bones at first because Max didn't seem to digest them as well so if you still don't think poop is good enough to move to another protein then drop the long leg boned pieces for now and offer up backs, ribs and necks according to the dog's size. No chicken necks for the GSD!


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## Annageckos

My GSD could eat chicken necks, but she wasn't a gulper and it's was a know thy dog type thing. I wouldn't recommend to people starting out to try chicken necks for a larger dog. And Speaking of the long bones harder to digest. My Great Dane, when she was younger ate a chicken thigh, whole. Gulp and down. She pooped out a whole, intact thigh bone. She had no problems passing it, but it was a shock. Now she chews her food, at least like a dog. Crunch crunch gone.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

So, I want to make sure that I am doing the math right for my dog. He is doing incredibly well on the raw diet, and we have not really had any issues whatsoever!
70lb*.03 = 2.1 pounds food/day...I average 1 pound per meal for simplicity sake
2 pounds = 32 ounces total per day
32*.10=3.2 ounces of bone and 3.2 ounces of organ per day...The rest is muscle meat.
AM meals: bones and organs (I want to get bones done in a single meal, because it stresses me out big time!!)
2 Chicken thighs
3-4 ounces of organs-liver/spleen/kidney...
The rest I add chicken feet and some muscle meat.

PM: Muscle Meat
Chicken meat, venison, tripe, turkey, sardines, eggs...etccc

Lastly, can someone help me better understand this 1:1 ratio...I am having a difficult time with understanding it. Take for example, in the morning he gets the 2 chicken thighs and organs...But then I usually add a little bit more muscle meat so that it adds up to 1 pound...Does that mean the phosphorous level would be too high? Maybe I am thinking too much into this.,,

I have a hunting relative who is going to hook me up with a 5 foot tall freezer full of venison and turkey parts woohoo I am SO THANKFUL!! He is going to save me a TON of money and stress.
Thank you everyone!


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## Kathyy

Just keep in mind 3% is a lot for a good sized dog, if he gets fat or stool gets sloppy try feeding a bit less food. You don't have to make each meal exactly the same size either. When you pack up your meat make up 1-3 day sized packets and feed bits accordingly. I discovered Max, who had trouble with boneless days, did great if he ate bony stuff+organ+boneless meat=12 ounces one day and the following day he got 8 ounces of boneless meat. And I weighed forever otherwise his rations would move up to 12 ounces and he'd get sloppy stool.

Chicken feet have lots of bone in them. Use on days when he isn't getting much bone as when you are attempting to move to alternating bony and bone free days. That's what I did as I was working to the 12 ounce>8 ounce day thing with Max, he'd get a normal amount of bone one day but only a chicken foot or small fish the following day. A 1.5 ounce chicken foot is actually more calcium than my littles need daily.

No the phosphorus/calcium ratio is perfect if you feed 10% bone. Dressed chicken is about 30% bone so when feeding through a 5 pound bird you would add 8.5 pounds of meaty stuff and 1.5 pounds of organ. Some people forget to add in the boneless meat and the dog is getting far more calcium than needed. My little Ginger will get fossil poop if I do that but even if the dog doesn't it is still not a good thing to do. I use chicken as bony meat and prefer to feed as much red meat as possible, chicken is low in some minerals and vitamins compared to beef and lamb and that nice venison you have coming. Is the turkey game as well? Hope there are necks in there, turkey necks are very tasty.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Thank you very very much! Yes, I'm getting every part of the turkey except for the breast meat. You really helped clarify some things. I only want what is best for him...Because believe me, kibble is a whole lot easier to feed but I see such a huge change in him on raw already. Thank you thank you thank you!


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## Annageckos

Raw feeding becomes so much easier the longer you do it. It's second nature to me now. You'll learn what works best for your dog, some dogs need a little more bone, some a little less. Every day doesn't need to be perfectly balanced. Aim for balance over time, weekly or monthly. What works for you.


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## Jaykrysten

I noticed there aren't a lot of people who feed rabbits to their dogs. Is there a reason for this? We raise meat rabbits so this would be the cheapest and most convienient option for us.


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## kfreker

Okay so i may be new at this, but i can get my hands on 20kg or 44lb of chicken backs for $2.45/kg or $1.11/LB Canadian. If i purchase this i will need other meat such as beef and other deboned chicken or turkey and organs to balance it out correct? Let me know if im wrong.... Im still trying to figure out where to get stuff what to buy.... any help would be greatly appreciated


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## Kathyy

Jaykrysten said:


> I noticed there aren't a lot of people who feed rabbits to their dogs. Is there a reason for this? We raise meat rabbits so this would be the cheapest and most convienient option for us.


Rabbit is extremely expensive if you must buy retail and not as vitamin/mineral rich a protein as lamb/beef/venison. If I had a source of cheap enough rabbit then I would use it whole prey if you are up to it, at least try to feed the heads and guts. Either feeding whole prey or feeding head and guts with boneless red meats would be a terrific diet for a raw fed dog.



kfreker said:


> Okay so i may be new at this, but i can get my hands on 20kg or 44lb of chicken backs for $2.45/kg or $1.11/LB Canadian. If i purchase this i will need other meat such as beef and other deboned chicken or turkey and organs to balance it out correct? Let me know if im wrong.... Im still trying to figure out where to get stuff what to buy.... any help would be greatly appreciated


That is extremely expensive for bone. You would need to treat this stuff as 50% bone and feed 20% of the diet as backs, 70% boneless and 10% organ AFTER your dog is used to the diet. You might start on defatted backs for a few days and as poop firms up leave the skin on a little at a time then add in a little meat to reduce the bone fed until you get to that point which could take a couple months. Tortoise wins the race!

Try pricing it out both ways to see if continuing to use backs is sensible dollar wise. Maybe whole birds or quarters are cheaper as with whole birds you can feed 50% chicken and 50% boneless plus organ.

That is extremely expensive for here in the states for what amounts to bone. Ho


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Jaykrysten said:


> I noticed there aren't a lot of people who feed rabbits to their dogs. Is there a reason for this? We raise meat rabbits so this would be the cheapest and most convienient option for us.


My friend raises meat rabbits...I am actually going there on Sunday to pick up 10 plus rabbits.


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## Sibe

Jaykrysten said:


> I noticed there aren't a lot of people who feed rabbits to their dogs. Is there a reason for this? We raise meat rabbits so this would be the cheapest and most convienient option for us.


 Cost. When something is $4-6+ per pound I'm not buying it. I did score like 20 for $1 each (not per lb, but $1 per whole rabbit) that were show rabbits. Either beyond showing age, or not show quality. Photo of dead rabbits in Ziplocs. Killed via cervical dislocation.


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## Kathyy

Some dogs don't much care for the taste either as it is bland. I had to play keep away with Max's first rabbit head to get him to start eating it versus he was bouncing on me and worked a llama head for 45 minutesx4 days until I got sick of the thing and tossed it.

On topic, this week my dogs have had -
Beef heart, organ grind, chicken grind 
Rabbit, chicken, organ grind, stomach grass in a very bony grind
Ostrich chunks to go with the rabbit grind and also venison bone
Ostrich liver
Venison meaty bone
Scrambled egg, dogs don't like it raw and it is easier to divide between 2 small dogs


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## kfreker

So i just bought chicken legs(back attached) chicken thighs bone in and chicken thighs bone out. How would you feed. This will be his first "whole" meal and I dont want to feed him red meat yet. Please let me know thansk


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## Kathyy

I'd peel the skin off the chicken leg and offer 2% of your dog's ideal weight per day. If the cleaned leg is 1 pound and your dog weighs 50 pounds he gets one per day so I'd cut some meat off for the second meal of the day. If he is 50 pounds then cutting the drum, thigh and back apart could make the second meal too tempting to swallow without enough chomping, a small meaty meal is safe though. Even my formerly chronic bile vomiter was fine on unequal meal sizes from the start much to my surprise.

If things go well and his tummy doesn't get upset then leave some skin on a little at a time until he is eating the skin as well. Then take away a little meat and offer a bite of another protein.


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## Pasarella

My dogs mostly get goat and pork,raw eggs without the shell(no need for the shell they get a lot of bones and they don't love the shell anyways),some salmon,poultry.Basically they eat everything I can get my hands on to.Later when they will eat empty the 250liter freezer which is now full of goat and pork(my stupid idea),I'm planning on buying them some lamb or sheep depending on the price,guess I will have to butcher it myself as we do with the goats.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

I bought about 30 pounds of frozen skinned rabbits for $40 from a friend...My dog wants nothing to do with it! I have tried feeding it to him frozen, thawed, cut up, hand delivered, smeared in peanut butter and olive oil...Nope! He just sticks his nose high up in the air...Any other suggestions? I guess I could try to find someone else who could use it.


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## Annageckos

Jaykrysten said:


> I noticed there aren't a lot of people who feed rabbits to their dogs. Is there a reason for this? We raise meat rabbits so this would be the cheapest and most convienient option for us.


I feed rabbit when I can get it cheap, it's something everyone loves. Price is the reason I don't feed it often, I'd love to raise meat rabbits.


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## Kathyy

That's too bad he doesn't like it. At least it wasn't expensive. Those rabbit heads were something like $.50 a pound and I was still determined to get them down him. Max did better with a huge whole rabbit because he adored organs but refused to eat the skin. 

You could try searing that nice rabbit over high heat to brown it a bit, you could offer it warm, you could offer it frozen. You could offer it twice daily and he gets nothing else until he eats it. You could offer tiny bits along with something he likes and he would accidently eat a little then keep offering more until he eats the whole thing.

I did the searing when Bucky started on raw but probably he just needed a day to settle in before eating. I tried the eat it or else with Max and he stared at the nice salmon head for 3 days in a row. I did succeed in mixing a little of something new with the usual to get Max to eat fish though.


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## timmyh

I feed my 4 dogs 2% of their body weight per day. 
80%meat
10% bone (non weight bearing)
5% liver
5% kidneys

Seems to work fine. Mix it between chicken beef pork and rabbit.


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## RawFedHavs

I have 2 dogs, but they're around the same weight so I'll just post for one. They weigh around 14-15 lbs, both Havanese, 1.5 years. 

I change it up every week, but this was last week's menu for both of them: 

lamb necks (they can gnaw off the softer parts) 
green beef/lamb tripe
beef roast
beef kidneys
beef heart
beef sweetbreads
beef spleen
beef/chicken liver
chicken carcass bits
duck quarters
rabbit ears (raw w/ fur)
rabbit quarters
pig ears (dehydrated, I don't feed raw pork) 
Steamed Salmon 
raw sardines
ground lamb 
a small chicken (split between the two of them, w/ organs) 
raw chicken eggs
chicken gizzards
chicken hearts
some odd chicken bone bits I had in the freezer
ground eggshells for boneless meals. (I was running out of proper bones)
extra blood I froze in cubes
their vegetables/fruit this week included: salad, celery, sweet peppers, apples, berries, a teeny bit of banana & spinach.

+ their supplements, which included their joint supplements, their probiotics/enzymes, some supp. for the minerals/vitamins this week's 'menu' was lacking and coconut oil to get them to eat their veg. I personally feel like coconut oil is way, way overrated but mine love it and it's not doing them any harm so why not? Also some extras like spirulina, curcumin and such. 

They're not fed an entirely PMR diet (didn't work out for them), so I try to follow 70% muscle, 10% bone, 10% organ, 10% vegetable.

P.S just got them some goose as well. Also, one of them ate a mouse over the weekend, if that counts for anything! :redface: 

And one of them won't eat rabbit, which is why I have both rabbit + duck quarters (with most of the skin removed)


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## Dhalia76

Our dog is a tiny 12 lb dog. Our cat is 15 lbs. So we give her small portions. 3% of her weight. 
AM and PM they both get
cubed chicken (breast or thigh)
Chicken hearts
Chicken Liver
Ground Beef (Dog only, she is a high energy terrier and needs the fat)
Fish canned in WATER 
Neck bones with meat (this is the only bone the dog gets, shes so tiny, if I give her anything else she would most likely choke on it. It also takes her a while to finish it because shes so tiny)
I also give yogurt, cottage cheese, cheese, carrots, pumpkin, cucumber, sweet potato, egg shells.
I have tried other organs and meats, they hate them. They sniff them and walk away. It actually keeps it pretty basic.
Our dog was abandoned on the side of the road. We soon realized why. She had bad diarrhea, gas that could clear a room, immature and nervous bladder. Luckily I had worked with dogs that ate raw and had these issues (our cat was already semi-raw because of his bladder crystals, we already had food ready to go for the dog). So I made her a diaper, fed her raw, worked with her and she is just THE best! 
I have enjoyed reading everyones raw food they give their dogs. I may have to try some of them!


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## Kathyy

My 13 pound princess can eat whole prey chicken and she's missing two carnassial teeth. She has a dainty head and is half chihuahua. You are short changing her, give her bigger bones and she'll eat what she likes and you can toss the rest. That helps with dental health as well. Both the dogs in my avatar came with horrible teeth and two of hers were rotten and breaking and giving the occasional big bone polished the teeth up nicely. She took a week to eat organs, I just offered her a fresh toothpick sized bit daily and she finally decided it was edible. A complete hoot watching her process too.

Anyway diet these days is boring but apparently delicious.
Chicken necks with skin and fat is daily bone
Ground beef heart, trim and organ mix second meal of the day
When it doesn't come out even cooked scrambled egg
Pork bone for big fun meals once a week, the elk is gone. They can usually eat about half the actual bone.


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## sydneynicole

Figured I'd add to this since it is kind of dead lately. 

My dogs get a really varied diet - it changes every month and during the month they have 1-3 "meals" I make them. Most of the variety comes from whatever is on sale. Certain things I will splurge a little on now and then to try and make sure they are getting everything they need. For example they will usually eat liver and kidney as their organs, but sometimes I will substitute the kidney for brains or spleen. They usuall get sardines twice a week, but sometimes I will substitute that for salmon or mackerel. 

My dogs are 113lbs, 98lbs, and 16lbs. The big dogs are 10 and 12 year old moderately active spayed females and eat 2.5% of their body weight daily. My small dog is a 5 year old highly active intact male and he eats 4.5% of his body weight daily. 

The big dogs have grains and fruits and vegetables added to their diet because I can source those for less money and I need to keep the cost down (they are my parents dogs, technically, and I'm a broke college kid). They get roughly 60% muscle meat, 20% grain/veggies/fruits, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organ. Ideally I'd love to be able to afford to take out the grains/fruits/vegetables but they do well like this and it's still less carbohydrates than most kibbles and I know exactly what they are eating. I always make sure they get the proper amount of organs and bones - only the muscle meat is altered based on the grains/fruit/veg. They eat 1300 grams and 1100 grams a day. 

My small dog gets the standard 80/10/5/5 diet without any grains/fruits/veg because he eats 325 grams a day. 

Now for actual meals. I prep for an entire month at a time. They get about 3 different meals mixed up throughout each week. The only thing I really monitor as far as what I grab out of the freezer is that they get fish twice a week. Other than that I just grab whatever is in front. 

Here is what my big dogs are getting this month:
Meal 1: Ground pork, chicken liver, beef kidney, chicken leg quarters, chicken necks, brown rice, sweet potatoes, blueberries
Meal 2: Chicken hearts, chicken liver, beef kidney, pork feet, brown rice, broccoli, apples
Meal 3: 1 whole sardine, green tripe, chicken liver, beef kidney, brown rice, sweet potatoe, blueberries, spinach

And my small dog:
Meal 1: Rabbit leg quarter, rabbit liver, rabbit kidney
Meal 2: Sardine chunks, chicken liver, beef kidney, chicken neck
Meal 3: Green tripe, calf liver, pork brains, rabbit ribcage


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## EmmaWilliam

this thread is so helpful!


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## Melani66

I read about raw dog food, that its much better to feed my dog in this way.
I Also found this typo of food: Dehydrated raw dog food, and especially this company: [link removed by moderator]
Have anybody of you guys try this out? Maybe know difference between it or any recommendations?
P.s my dog is French bulldog


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## Tomi2455

I have an 11th-month German Shepherd. His name is Max (from Maximilian, just kidding







). I don't know if this is a topic of interest for the group, but I want to share his story with you.
From the beginning, his biggest problem was eating (he was worse than a small child), he simply didn't like anything anymore, or he got bored quickly with a certain kind of food. After months of searching and dozens of types of food, I found something interesting that may help you too.
This company prepares your dog's meal according to his "fads". More precisely, after an analysis of the lifestyle, it prepares a diversified and complete menu without the need for other supplements.
I'll leave you a link here to see what it's about (I shortened the link to avoid spam). I consider the prices very affordable for what they offer, and with the last order I also received a 50% discount, so whoever wants the code can write to me privately. (I repeat, I do not promote). Check the comments for details
[link deleted by moderator]
Also you get 50% off with that code "hmax50btyo"
Enjoy


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## RonE

And how, exactly, do you think you avoided spam?

Keep in mind that when your first two identical posts promote a product and include an external link, it is the very definition of spam.


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