# Should i get a pup from a pet store?



## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Hi,

In the past I have gotten my dogs from breeders, but now I'm thinking why not a pet store? I've read numerous editorials online about how the puppies from there come from puppymills. I wonder if this applies to all pet stores, and if the manager at a store would be honest with me if his pups really do come from puppymills. I'm also aware of genetic diseases that can be passed down unknowingly. I need some more info besides the basic editorial --- Is there anyone on here that has actually bought a puppy from a pet store? I'm curious to hear about it.

Thanks,
Jill


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I don't have a pet store dog, that I know of. He's a rescue, so I really don't know what his past was like.

But I do see a lot of pet store pups, working as a vet tech. The majority of them have intestinal and external parasites. A good percentage have kennel cough or other illnesses. Some have had major genetic health problems and needed to be euthanized before they were even a year old.

Think about it this way: Would a *good* breeder, someone who really cares about where the pups end up, really want them going to the first person who had the cash? Or would they want to interview and get to know the person who's taking their pups, to make sure they're going to forever homes?

Even taking away the emotional aspect of it, would a breeder who took the time and money to show and get proper health testing done on the parents be financially able to sell their pups "wholesale" to a pet store (for the store owner to mark up) and be able to make a profit? People who sell their pups to pet store do it to make money. Good breeders, who do everything they're supposed to do, barely break even. If someone is selling that pup to the store at a fraction of it's "retail" price, and they're still making money off the pup, they're cutting corners somewhere.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

It's not like you can't get ripped-off from a breeder, either.

I bought a Keeshond a while ago. I live in Illinois, and I had him shipped from California. The breeder seemed decent and responsible. But when Thor was about 7-8 years old, he had serious diabetes. He was always on the chubby side but I knew I was on the proper diet for him. The vet said he was born with diabetes, it just wasn't appearant when he was younger. I've heard diabetes is genetic, so would it of been the breeder's place to worn me about this? Thor died when he was ten, and it was unbearing to put shots in him for the last year of his life.

At our local Petland, you can have a two-trial period with the puppy. I wonder if you can have it vet-checked? I'm not a vet or anything, so could someone clue me in on if you can tell of the most common problems with pet store puppies when they're that young?


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## harajukulove (Jun 15, 2007)

why not adopt a puppy or dog?


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Umm what? You mean from a shelter?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> if the manager at a store would be honest with me if his pups really do come from puppymills.


No store manager or employee is going to tell you they get their pups from a puppy mill, but that's pretty much the only place they CAN get them from.

There are a few members here who have gotten their dogs from pet stores and are happy with their dogs. That doesn't mean they would do it again or that you can expect your situation to turn out as well.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> Umm what? You mean from a shelter?


uuh yeah.. from a shelter or rescue.
I adopted my Pepper from a rescue , and she is great.. and really healthier too!
Pet stores get their puppies from horrible conditions.... and you buying from them would support puppymills.. not good..

Yes you can get ripped off from a breeder.

"At our local Petland, you can have a two-trial period with the puppy. I wonder if you can have it vet-checked? I'm not a vet or anything, so could someone clue me in on if you can tell of the most common problems with pet store puppies when they're that young?" 

Petland.. a no no.. and about the health problems its different between dogs. But they are not healthy at pet stores.


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## harajukulove (Jun 15, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> Umm what? You mean from a shelter?


yeah, i adopted my dog from the Humane Society when he was a puppy. He's the perfect dog!


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

I would adopt a young dog or puppy from a shelter, but some dogs are in recues because they are bad or have serious behavioral problems. I want to be cautious with that.



RonE said:


> No store manager or employee is going to tell you they get their pups from a puppy mill, but that's pretty much the only place they CAN get them from.


That's true. But it's no different adopting a dog, most dogs I see up for adoption are puppymill rescues. So what's the difference?


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## harajukulove (Jun 15, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> I would adopt a young dog or puppy from a shelter, but some dogs are in recues because they are bad or have serious behavioral problems. I want to be cautious with that.


that's not true...most people put their dogs at shelters b/c 1) too busy to care for it anymore 2) new baby in the house 3) moving and can't take dog with them or 4) never took the time to train them.

There's nothing wrong with stopping by and checking them out...


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> That's true. But it's no different adopting a dog, most dogs I see up for adoption are puppymill rescues. So what's the difference?


Your not spending 2000 bucks on a shelter dog. That's the difference...here is where pet store puppies come from. Would you like to keep them in business?
http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/index.html


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

No, I've been looking on Pet Finder, and all the dogs are sky puppymill rescues. (atleast the ones I'm interested in)


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

"I would adopt a young dog or puppy from a shelter, but some dogs are in recues because they are bad or have serious behavioral problems. I want to be cautious with that." puppy mill dogs are much MUCH un healthier..and behavioral problems can be fixed. Harajukulove is spot on. 

"That's true. But it's no different adopting a dog, most dogs I see up for adoption are puppymill rescues. So what's the difference?" but see if you go to a pet store and buy your puppymill dog , you will be *supporting puppy mills!* if you get a puppy mill dog at a shelter you will be *supporting the shelter!*


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow...that is so sick! Abusing animals for money...


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

exactly.. thats why we opt against pet sstores


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

I wonder how much a puppymill owner would sell their puppymill for?


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

I have no idea how much... but ugh... hate those people.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

hmm...I can hardly tell the difference between a responsible and non-responsible breeder...can someone do it for me? look at this one: http://softpawsadoption.bravehost.com


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Adopt a dog and you're saving a life and helping save other lives.

Buy a dog from a responsible breeder, and you're supporting responsible breeding.

Buy a dog from a pet store and you're supporting puppymillers who keep their breeding dogs in cages their whole lives, standing in their own feces, never recieving even minimal medical care, and never knowing love.


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## harajukulove (Jun 15, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> hmm...I can hardly tell the difference between a responsible and non-responsible breeder...can someone do it for me? look at this one: http://softpawsadoption.bravehost.com


wow...she sure does charge an awful lot for puppies....


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

yup , i agree with Lorina..

I looked at the link.. and do you havveeee to get from a breeder? I am sorry.. but I think everyone should get a dog.. from a shelter.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Re: That website. A responsible breeder would for one have a real domain name and pay for hosting, not a freebie account on bravenet. They don't typically have mulitple breeds. And they don't call breeding and selling "adoption."

Adoption is rescuing. Getting a dog from a breeder is purchasing.

There's no mention of health testing or showing/titling of the dogs she breeds. She mentions champions in their bloodline, but that means nothing. Hell, go back enough generations, and I'm probably related to Mary Queen of Scots.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Really? She's cheaper than the other ones I've looked at.

yup , i agree with Lorina..

I looked at the link.. and do you havveeee to get from a breeder? I am sorry.. but I think everyone should get a dog.. from a shelter.
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Ya I'm going to look at my local one. Thanks you guys.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah Lorina is right...

And she is cheap probably so she can breed alot of dogs and sell alot.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Re: That website. A responsible breeder would for one have a real domain name and pay for hosting, not a freebie account on bravenet. They don't typically have mulitple breeds. And they don't call breeding and selling "adoption."
-----
Thanks for your input. It's helped a lot.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

pup_at_heart said:


> Hi,
> 
> In the past I have gotten my dogs from breeders, but now I'm thinking why not a pet store? I've read numerous editorials online about how the puppies from there come from puppymills. I wonder if this applies to all pet stores, and if the manager at a store would be honest with me if his pups really do come from puppymills. I'm also aware of genetic diseases that can be passed down unknowingly. I need some more info besides the basic editorial --- Is there anyone on here that has actually bought a puppy from a pet store? I'm curious to hear about it.
> 
> ...


Look at it this way:

A responsible breeder carefully raises a beloved bitch. Trains and shows her to titles. Gets all health testing done. Pays a hefty stud fee after spending months carefully comparing stud dogs to find just the right one whose pedigree, faults, and virtues complement the bitch, and then breeds that special litter.

Then this breeder waits those interminable 9 weeks until the puppies arrive. Puppies are born into this breeder's hand, and this caring person who is devoted to their breed smiles with each new miracle that takes it's first breath, and is put to its dam's breast. 

A breeder carefully raises, trains and socializes the litter. And then can you imagine in any way this person selling these precious carefully planned puppies to someone when they KNOW these puppies will be resold with no care except the cash payment?

There is simply no such thing as a responsible breeder who will sell a puppy for resale. We don't sell to retail outlets. We don't donate puppies for auctions. We don't sell to commercial breeder, puppy mills, or ANY place that might resell a puppy.

ANY PLACE that has puppies for resale, ANY place that is selling puppies in a retail outlet, is selling puppies as a cash crop.

The reason it is different paying huge bucks to a pet shop for a commercially farmed puppy and adopting a puppy or dog from a shelter is every dime you spend in a place that sells puppies is greasing the cruelty wheel.

YOU are paying money to finance the next cash crop litter.

These places are SCUM. Avoid them at all costs. The ONLY way to ever stop them, barring the outlawing of selling of any animals in a retail store front, is to stop demand.

No demand, no supply.

There is simply no arguent, or excuse, to support buying ANYTHING in a "store" that sells puppies.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

pup_at_heart said:


> It's not like you can't get ripped-off from a breeder, either.
> 
> I bought a Keeshond a while ago. I live in Illinois, and I had him shipped from California. The breeder seemed decent and responsible. But when Thor was about 7-8 years old, he had serious diabetes. He was always on the chubby side but I knew I was on the proper diet for him. The vet said he was born with diabetes, it just wasn't appearant when he was younger. I've heard diabetes is genetic, so would it of been the breeder's place to worn me about this? Thor died when he was ten, and it was unbearing to put shots in him for the last year of his life.
> 
> At our local Petland, you can have a two-trial period with the puppy. I wonder if you can have it vet-checked? I'm not a vet or anything, so could someone clue me in on if you can tell of the most common problems with pet store puppies when they're that young?


 
I can tell you that ALL Petland dogs are from PuppyMills, Petland has a contract with Hunte Corporation to supply them. Hunte Corp is the largest broker for puppymill dogs in the U.S. The shipping conditions are deplorable. Here is more info on Hunte http://student.santarosa.edu/~khanke/hunte.html
http://www.kerryblues.com/hunte.html

Here's some info on Petland
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/petland.htm
http://www.idausa.org/petland.html
http://www.caps-web.org/petland.php

Sadly, it sounds like you got your Keeshhound from a puppymill too. Puppymills aren't JUST in Missouri or Pennsylvania, thay are in EVERY state in the US. 

In short, go to the Breed club for the type of dog you would like, you will REPUTABLE breeders as well as rescue information.


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## SunSiberians (May 7, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> hmm...I can hardly tell the difference between a responsible and non-responsible breeder...can someone do it for me? look at this one: http://softpawsadoption.bravehost.com


A responsible breeder usually only breeds one breed - doesn't mean they can't show or have other breeds. A responsible breeder has health guarentees - for the rest of the dog's life - not just a month after the puppy is placed. A responsible breeder either works on show comformation or workmanship - but not just to breed pets. A responsible breeder is incredibly concerned with where the puppy goes and can and will say no to a person if they don't feel they'll will make a good home. A responsible breeder only breeds when they already have people waiting on a list for puppies and often only breeds when they want a puppy to add to their family. There are MANY more points that make up a good breeder - but if you apply those in your search you'll be better off.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> I would adopt a young dog or puppy from a shelter, but some dogs are in recues because they are bad or have serious behavioral problems. I want to be cautious with that.
> 
> 
> 
> That's true. But it's no different adopting a dog, most dogs I see up for adoption are puppymill rescues. So what's the difference?



The difference is that you are not consciously supporting greedy puppymillers by buying a puppy, you're rescuing a dog (possibly from a puppymill, yes) from a shelter. Not only that, you won't be paying out several hundred dollars at a shelter, the way you will at a pet store. Puppymills would cease to exist if the general public refused to buy these dogs, and this would end the misery of breeder dogs living in horrific conditions at puppymills. 

Many dogs of good breeding end up in shelter because the people who bought the dog were too stupid to properly train the dog, so consider the dog expendable, to be thrown away like trash. Or, they got a breed that was incompatible with their lifestyle, and didn't want to be bothered to do any more with the dog than open the door to let it out to pee, and feed it. 

Rescue groups of purebred dogs get dogs for various reasons - not always behavioral or health issues. I foster for a Poodle rescue group, and had a wonderful little Mini Poodle whose owner had died, and family members dumped him in a shelter. I had Fonzie for about 3 months before finding him a new forever home. He's happy, healthy, and his new family adores him. Others are surrendered because of behavioral problems created by the owners themselves (i.e., ignorance of canine behavior, unwilling to learn how to train their dog, etc.), but these issues can be worked through with behavioral modification and simple training in most cases.

I not only would never buy a puppy in a pet store, I do not support pet stores who sell puppies by purchasing anything in their stores. I also protest a local pet store who sells puppies by handing out literature to educate potential puppy buyers about the horrors of puppymills. The owner called the cops on me, but the cops told him there's nothing he can do about it (I made sure I was on the sidewalk - public property - with my beautiful ambassador of her breed, Maddy). We can and do make a difference, one person at a time.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> I would adopt a young dog or puppy from a shelter, but some dogs are in recues because they are bad or have serious behavioral problems. I want to be cautious with that.


The majority of shelters and rescues do not adopt out dogs with *serious* behavioral problems. Those dogs are typically euthanized.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

My first dog was purchased from a pet store, I didn't know any better. I went in with my then almost 4 year old son, we saw this cute little puppy laying in a crib (not a crate mind you) and just impulsively bought her and took her home. She was a West Highland White Terrier. We did this December 30 (day before New Years Eve) and the weather was really nasty outside--it snowed from Christmas until the end of March that year. Well, Snowie (appropriately named) was sick for the first four months we got her--she had kennel cough (wonder where she got that from?--being sarcastic) and it took several meds and a long time to go away, almost progressed to pneumonia. It was scary too seeing this little dog coughing and such. We tried to paper train her because there was so much snow, not working--At the end of March we got a trainer in and by June she was housebroken and doing fine. Would I every get another dog from a pet store--no--unless I felt I was actually rescuing a dog. In the upswing, we loved Snowie dearly, she turned out to be a great family dog, she lived for 13 years and our lives would have not been as enriched if we had never gotten her.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I wanted to say- I would question the uh morality ( if thats the word here) of ANY breeder that would sell to a pet store. ... Its easier to get a mortgage than to get a puppy from me... 
I will probably get jumped for saying this, but to me just giving pups to a petstore to sell to whoever comes along is like a "unspoken break in moral/breeding ethics.. " - ( gets down off the soap box, and ducks.. )


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

I have never purchased a puppy from a pet store, but I do have a Golden Retriever who was rescued from a life as a "breeder" in a puppy mill.
She was shut up in a 10 ft concrete kennel for the first 20 months of her life. The only human contact she had was when she was taken to the vet. 
The only dog contact she had was hearing the other dogs barking and the males dogs who were put in to try to impregnate her.
When we got her she was so weak she could not stand on her hind legs. She did not know how to go up and down stairs, play with toys, and she did not know what to do with a bone.
She was so scared of everything and everyone, she would hide under a desk at the slightest noise and fling herselves at our feet every minute or so. She would also pee out of fright if you raised your voice even slightly.
It took us well over a year but she is now a very happy dog. She did have a bout with cancer which so far we have gotten through. We hope it is gone.
If you buy a dog from a pet store, think about the dogs like Sophia who are made to suffer to produce those "cute" cheap dogs. You do not see them, but their lives are hell.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Ha, if you are interested in purchasing from a petstore, just drop by the vet clinic that I work at and take a look at all of the puppies that we have back in the vet section that are sick and dying that come from the petstore...we had a little Maltese mix recentally pass due to parvo. Luckly, his sister survived and is doing fine.  There was also a Basset that was pooping blood and a Frenchie that had parvo. 
Then go and visit my Grandma's Schnauzer who, at the age of eight (young for a Schnauzer), has numerous health problems and has very bad knees. 
Then you can go over to my friend's house and see their Shih Tzu (sweetest little thing) who is extreamly badly bred and is HUGE. I know Shih Tzus can be big, but he is BIG.


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## SunSiberians (May 7, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> I wanted to say- I would question the uh morality ( if thats the word here) of ANY breeder that would sell to a pet store. ... Its easier to get a mortgage than to get a puppy from me...
> I will probably get jumped for saying this, but to me just giving pups to a petstore to sell to whoever comes along is like a "unspoken break in moral/breeding ethics.. " - ( gets down off the soap box, and ducks.. )


No need for ducking in my opinion! But if that's not the case...then can I hide behind the couch with you?


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Sadly, it sounds like you got your Keeshhound from a puppymill too. Puppymills aren't JUST in Missouri or Pennsylvania, thay are in EVERY state in the US.
-------------
Nope, he was from a top quality breeder. He had AKC papers and everything.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> Sadly, it sounds like you got your Keeshhound from a puppymill too. Puppymills aren't JUST in Missouri or Pennsylvania, thay are in EVERY state in the US.
> -------------
> Nope, he was from a top quality breeder. He had AKC papers and everything.


The AKC is a registry body only, it says nothing about the quality of the breeder. 
Curious, what made this breeder top quality?


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> The AKC is a registry body only, it says nothing about the quality of the breeder.
> Curious, what made this breeder top quality?


Her reputation, champions, and at first Thor was fine and healthy.

And if Thor did come from a puppymill, he wouldn't be AKC registered and vet checked.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> Her reputation, champions, and at first Thor was fine and healthy.
> 
> And if Thor did come from a puppymill, he wouldn't be AKC registered and vet checked.


That's good - what type of health testing did she do on her breeding stock? 
Uh...you are mistaken, the AKC has registered many a puppy mill pup. Vet checked means nothing.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

All kinds of stuff -- first puppy shots, neuter certificate, the basics. I had this dog twenty years ago -- I can't remember everything.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> All kinds of stuff -- first puppy shots, neuter certificate, the basics.


That is no where near health testing, I am afraid. My point is that anyone can register their purebred puppies with the AKC, even the most unscrupulous of people. When looking for a breeder you want someone who puts titles on their dogs in the confirmation ring, you want one who carries out all of the the necessary health testing to screen for genetically inheritable diseases. My boxer breeder, Holters and Echos her bitches to test for Boxer Cardiomyopathy and SAS, she thyroid tests and has their hips checked and cleared for dysplasia - all of these things are prior to breeding her bitch. There is no way you can do this on a pup - any breeder that tries to tell you this is a crock. So do you research in looking for your next pup, find out what inheritable diseases the breed your interested carries and make sure they are doing the proper screening before hand, make sure they are breeding to better the breed, not just to pump out puppies and turn a buck. 

BTW - your avatar is hilarious. That is quite some look on that pup!


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> Her reputation, champions, and at first Thor was fine and healthy.
> 
> And if Thor did come from a puppymill, he wouldn't be AKC registered and vet checked.


 I am happy to hear you have a good breeder. 
However I must disagree withthe statement of a puppy mill and no papers. Sure they register.. lol. With names like ( making this up) " fred, alice etc.. Look for titles or cerfications in the names- that will tell you.. 
Unfortunately- puppy mills might start with one good pair- and it was uh generations back. And as far as "vet checked"- there are alot of mobile vets that do the these places- but usually since the pups are sold before the rabies shot ( which must be done by a licensed vet), these people " give their own shots- and uh trust me- it was done... " 
But also understand- there is a new rule in the akc that anyone that registers over 4 litters a year, the AKC can check the pedigrees, run dna to verify the accuracy of the listings etc.. And even check the homes, and if necessary, turn it over to the Human Society..


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

BTW - your avatar is hilarious. That is quite some look on that pup!
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Thank you! I thought it was so funny and adorable when I saw it.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I agree that the AKC WILL register a purebred puppy mill puppy (most pet store/BYB/mill puppies come registered because it is used as an advertising gimmick). The only requirement to register a pup is a pedigree and registered parents. Papers and pedigree mean absolute jack without titles on the PARENTs (forget champion lines).

I can't believe they want upwards of $850 for a PET QUALITY pup on that site! That's insane! I got my pet quality corgi, Shippo, from a SHOW breeder. Both parents were CHAMPION titled and health tested. Shippo came to me microchipped, first shots, with trainng already started, and with a contract and lifetime support from his breeder. Shippo only cost me $600!

I may have missed this, but what breed are you going for? I'm sure you could find a responsible breeder by looking on the breed's national club website. Most have a listing of them by area.

Also, my family and I have adopted all ages of numerous dogs from the local shelters over the years, and we haven't ended up with a single one with behavioral issues. Most of the dogs there are there through no fault of their own, but simply because their owners were stupid and didn't train them (this can be easily fixed)/didn't plan for them long term/moved and didn't bother finding an apartment that would accept them/kids were allergic etc. The list goes on.

My dog Eevee came from a local shelter as a slightly older puppy (this meant less time potty training for me). The owners' excuse was "we're moving". Eevee is a wonderful dog.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Cheetah said:


> I agree that the AKC WILL register a purebred puppy mill puppy (most pet store/BYB/mill puppies come registered because it is used as an advertising gimmick). The only requirement to register a pup is a pedigree and registered parents. Papers and pedigree mean absolute jack without titles on the PARENTs (forget champion lines).
> 
> I can't believe they want upwards of $850 for a PET QUALITY pup on that site! That's insane! I got my pet quality corgi, Shippo, from a SHOW breeder. Both parents were CHAMPION titled and health tested. Shippo came to me microchipped, first shots, with trainng already started, and with a contract and lifetime support from his breeder. Shippo only cost me $600!
> 
> ...


I'm looking for a toy poodle, or pomeranian, actually. And $850 is the cheapest I have found. For a white female - (there's such a demand) its not that bad. Don't forget a lot of breeders price based on color and gender, not just whether it's pet or show. I really want to adopt though and save a live. I also have a 6 year old cat and 3 teenagers. I'm looking for a dog that would fit our lifestyle. Anyone want to help? This is a good shelter near me - http://andersonanimalshelter.com/ Look at the dogs and tell me which one might suit best. A dog that doesn't need much training would work best, because I'm a working single parent.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

hmm lets see..well first... do you want an older dog.. like +1 because there are soo many? or a puppy? and do you want a male or female? or does it matter
?


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't care, really. I just don't want a senior dog because then I'll fall in love with it, and I'll only have it for a year. An older puppy or a dog 1-5 years would probably be best. I don't care what breed, either. I would not at all mind a mutt. It's my daughter that wants a dog the most, so a female would be best, but either gender would work if it's a good dog.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

hmm there are alot of dogs.hmm there is a adorable Lakeland terrier , but not a puppy .
and some Pit Bull Terriers.. I am not sure if that is a + or a - for you..( not saying that you are dog racist.. but some people don't like them for other reasons)


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Can someone tell me more about Pit Bull Terriers? I don't know much about the breed. Thanks for looking, Iwantmypup.

That Lakeland Terrier (Andy) is adorable! He's only 3.5 years...that's kind of what I'm looking for. Although Andy would be the only dog, and it says he prefers a doggy friend. Wonder if I could get past that?


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanpitbull.htm
here is a really good link .
PBT just like any dog needs proper socialization and training.
They can be great family pets , just like any breed.
I have heard they are very protective you their family , so they seem like the gaurding type . 
They say that they are good with other pets if they are raised with the other pet from puppy hood.
I also read that like any breed they shouldn't be left alone with unfamiliar children. "For the most part they are very friendly, but not recommended for most people. Excellent with children in the family, they have a high pain tolerance and will happily put up with rough child play." they seem great!

"A minimum of training will produce a tranquil, obedient dog. Socialize very thoroughly when young to combat aggressive tendencies and be sure to keep the dog under control when other dogs are present. It has given outstanding results as a guardian of property, but is at the same time esteemed as a companion dog. When properly trained and socialized, this is a very good dog and a great family companion. Unfortunately, some choose to promote the fighting instinct in the breed, giving it a bad name."

-ali


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

The Chesepeke Bay Retriever looks good (Melissa) but kind of high maitence.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

she does seem good , but I am not sure how hyper they are... and I am guessing you are super busy with kids and a cat and job and stuff


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Ya, I'm afraid the PBT sounds a little too aggressive. I'd be worried when I go to work and it's left home with my cat and kids. 

The Lakeland Terrier sounds PERFECT! I was reading about the breed. They are hardy, so the less vet bills the better. I might consider him and run over to the shelter this week. 

And about the CBR, I have 2.5 acres. The problem is it's unfenced, so a dog could easily run out of the yard. A smaller dog would be best, because my neigborhood rules are very strict and sadly do not allow a dog kennel or fence of any kind.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah , and since you would like not much training it might be too much. (not badly , just not a doggy for everyone.)
Thats great that Andy( the lakeland terrier  ) sounds great!
He does sound good!

Hmm yeah the doggy would need a great re-call.
That stinks about the kennel or fence.. huh... but I think a smaller dog would be better .

Yay!
-ali


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Ali-

Do you know if Lakeland Terriers make good watch/guard dogs?


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Hmm.. I am not sure if they are gaurd dogs.. but any dog that loves you will probably be a protector.. even if its a little dog , but I read that they are alert , confident and Courageous. oh! and I also read this 

" Socialize them when they are still young with cats and other animals so they do not chase them when they are older."
and you do have a cat..

and thats only the lake land terrier , Andy is mixed with some shepherd I think also


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Uhh oh! Didn't cetch that part. I also like Angelina, the terrier dalmation mix. She's in a foster home though, so I wouldn't be able to get her right away.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah . aww she is cute.. well alll dogs are cute
She sounds great and reading about dalmations "They can be trained for defense and are good watchdogs."  
more info here :http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/dalmatian.htm

-ali


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

I will. The most calmest, friendliest dog I have ever met is my sister's. She's an adult female lab/dalmation mix. My sister rescued her from a shelter.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Awesome!
aww thats great , yeah about 2 years ago a couple houses down they had some dalmations.. I never met them though.


-ali


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Is there anyway I could find a kill shelter in the area and rescue a dog from there? Just curious.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Hmmm not sure.. by the link you gave me I am guessing you live in IL.. here is a list of IL shelters http://www.netpets.org/dogs/dogresc/illinois.htm


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow thank you!

And there is the possibility the local shelter could get in some more dogs in the next few days, or have some that aren't online. 

Thanks again for all your help!


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

No problemo at all!
Oh thats great!
I know , all these links , but here are like 2 more that you can search for doggies , http://www.1-800-save-a-pet.com/ and petfinder.com
Glad I could help!
good luck!

thanks!
-ali


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

pup_at_heart said:


> I'm looking for a toy poodle, or pomeranian, actually. And $850 is the cheapest I have found. For a white female - (there's such a demand) its not that bad. *Don't forget a lot of breeders price based on color and gender, not just whether it's pet or show.* I really want to adopt though and save a live. I also have a 6 year old cat and 3 teenagers. I'm looking for a dog that would fit our lifestyle. Anyone want to help? This is a good shelter near me - http://andersonanimalshelter.com/ Look at the dogs and tell me which one might suit best. A dog that doesn't need much training would work best, because I'm a working single parent.


I do not consider breeders who price based on color and gender to be reputable. ALL of Shippo's breeder's puppies were $600, regardless of color, gender, or show/pet quality.

It is great you are willing to adopt though. >^^;<


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

The times that color or markings comes into play is like a white spot on a solid color poodle ( disqualifying) or like a Greater swiss mountain dog with poor markings etc etc etc.. As far as price- depends alot on your area too. In our area- most "pure breds" could NOT be bought at such a price.. Combination of higher vet bills, and area of income in the Northern Va. area.. Or if the breed is considered rare etc...


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## lisa (May 2, 2007)

I feel that pet stores are probably not the 1st choice in getting a dog. I searched shelters in my area and couldnt find what I was looking for. All pet stores are not created equal. Some are actually quite reputable. Also, all puppies you get from a pet store are not all sick with all kinds of genetic defects. mine is quite healthy. parasites and kennel cough they may have but certainly not life threatening and very easy to treat. If you see a dog you love, go have it check by your vet (most "good" petstores do let you). buy him if you can afford to and give him a nice home. there are no guarantees with anything in life.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

lisa said:


> I feel that pet stores are probably not the 1st choice in getting a dog. I searched shelters in my area and couldnt find what I was looking for. All pet stores are not created equal. Some are actually quite reputable. Also, all puppies you get from a pet store are not all sick with all kinds of genetic defects. mine is quite healthy. parasites and kennel cough they may have but certainly not life threatening and very easy to treat. If you see a dog you love, go have it check by your vet (most "good" petstores do let you). buy him if you can afford to and give him a nice home. there are no guarantees with anything in life.


No ethical breeder would ever sell their pups to a pet store. So your pet store puppy either came from a puppymill or a backyard breeder, unfortunately both of those places are hardly reputable. They inflate prices so they can keep pumping out the next set of pups.


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## lisa (May 2, 2007)

Dont get me wrong I certainly dont condone this but when I saw and fell in love with my dog I wasnt going to deny him a great home because I didnt like where he came from. I quess my point was really a health issue, not all puppies are sick and have genetic problems that come from a pet store.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

I can understand that, but when people fall in love with that dog "in the window" they are only keeping places like puppymills and backyard breeders in business. Don't you think that if they were unsuccessful in selling their over priced pups they may not be encouraged to keep producing litters that won't sell? 
And you are right, not all pet store pups are doomed, but the horror stories I have heard from pet store pups certainly outweigh the happy endings. I am glad you got lucky.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I swear this forum is like crack. Only more addictive. *sigh*

Pup- I currently have a keeshond myself. If you tell me the name of the breeder from where you got Thor, I'll know right off the bat whether that person is reputable, because I show and I know pretty much everyone else who shows too. 

There are a few really quality breeders in Cali, but also some bybs, too. Sounds like maybe Thor was from a byb. I know any good breeder would have offered to take him back, and/or help you out with vet bills. Plus, you should let your breeder know so that they won't mate those two dogs together again. 

Also, Keeshonden are often "chubby." LOL- they are definitely prone to weight gain as a breed in general. They are one of those breeds that you sort of have to force to exercise, because they won't do it on their own. 

I am sorry that Thor had to go through so much b

In regards to a petshop dog, just do yourself a favor and don't do it. Obviously, as one poster pointed out, the dog can't help where it came from. BUT YOU CAN. As a consumer, you must put your dollars where you feel they are best spent. Do you REALLY want to support a puppy mill? 

You may "save" that puppy, but its parents are still in dirty cages, starving for food, human contact, and veternary care. 

Why would anyone want to support that? 

If you really want to "save" a dog or puppy, head to your local humane society. Those dogs would eventually be put to sleep, plus your dollars go to a good cause- keeping open a shelter that takes in all of your town's unwanted pets. 

Do pet stores do that kind of service? No. 

The only thing pet stores do is create more unwanted animals. They are certainly not in the business of helping or rescuing anything. 

Hope this helps! 

~ snow


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Snowshoe said:


> I swear this forum is like crack. Only more addictive. *sigh*


Junkie!


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## chucky (Mar 5, 2007)

i got my dog from a pet store, it came with like 100 pages of paperwork, including all his vet records, papers from a breeder, warranty(yes not a typo), microchiped, 1 free vet visit. and his entire family tree record.(his grand parents were champions). i'm happy i with my dog very much, that particular store is good, i don,t know about the rest of them, i also never bought a dog from a pet store before.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

RonE said:


> No store manager or employee is going to tell you they get their pups from a puppy mill, but that's pretty much the only place they CAN get them from.
> 
> There are a few members here who have gotten their dogs from pet stores and are happy with their dogs. That doesn't mean they would do it again or that you can expect your situation to turn out as well.


Are all commercial breeders "puppy mills"?


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Chucky, did you meet the breeder? Did you see the parents? Do you KNOW the breeder? Do you have support with training and management or anything else for the lifetime of the dog from the breeder?

I can only speak for myself, but I would destroy puppies before I would sell them for resale. Puppies I produce are "my puppies" for the rest of their lives. My puppy buyers get me and all my years of experience along with the puppy.

It is great that dogs are such resilient creatures that some can survive poor breeding practices and selections and become loving great companions. Many more don't survive as well, or have health and temperament issues as a result of poor breeding practices and early husbandry and lack of socialization.

Buying ANYTHING, much less an animal, in any store that sells puppies is putting money in the hand of the clueless people who farm puppies as a cash crop.

Stay away from pet shops. Adopt from a rescue, a shelter, or take the time to find a responsible breeder.

JMO as always.


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## chucky (Mar 5, 2007)

^^^no to every question, but it didn,t turn out bad after all, my dog has none of those problem, you mentioned.
let me ask you something,when you get a dog from a rescue, or shelter, do you know where the dog came from, or see its parents, or Do you have support with training and management or anything else for the lifetime of the dog?? i doubt it.
actually this is the first dog i got from the store, i didn,t think of buying a dog that day, i went in with my friend to buy some dog toys for his dog, saw this brittany(avatar) and couldn,t leave without him, never regred it for a moment. sometimes things make themselves happen.
btw, i got him at 8 month old, i have no idea why he wasn,t sold as a puppy, i didn,t ask the salesman, cuz he wouldn,t tell the truth anyway, i didn,t care, but now i see he is bigger than brittany should be, he is 3 inches taller, and weights 50lb, but not overweight at all, standart is 20 inches , 35 lb.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

and let me add " did the breeder care where the pups went?" .. answer is "no".. "sell to whoever"...


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

OK couple things 

first - there are responsible breeders who do have more than one breed..... I have two for example... goldens and flat coats.... a friend has flat coats and beagles... having two breeds is quite common having 3 or four or more that is different 

second - breeders don't make any money so using a free hosting site is not an indication of a responsible breeder I know many an excellent breeder who uses free hosting..... I woulnd't use that as a mark of a good or not good breeder.... 

third - I dont believe in selling show pups or pet pups for more or less money... nor do I believe in charging for color.... easy for me to say as my breeds only come in two colors for flat coats and all of mine are black.... and one color for goldens.... the fact is that I can't guarantee that any show pup will grow up to be a show pup.... its a guess based on what I see as a pup so I won't charge more for them

Fourth - $600 bucks is not alot of money for a puppy..... in my region and my breed you can double that and add a bit...... for a pet or a show puppy. 

be careful when making generalizations.... they are almost always untrue..... 

however.... one that is true is that no reputable breeder would allow a puppy to go to a third party person to sell in their stead..... and like bozoimom it is not easy to get one of my pups. 

s


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

chucky said:


> let me ask you something,when you get a dog from a rescue, or shelter, do you know where the dog came from, or see its parents, or Do you have support with training and management or anything else for the lifetime of the dog?? i doubt it.


 So you're going to the store to buy some cookies...you find one brand but purchasing them in different places causes the money you spent to go to support different causes. Buying it in the first place supports terriorism...buying it in the second place helps orphans. Which place would you want to buy the cookie from?

We picked up Blackie as a stray when he was six months old and he is now twelve and still going strong, aside from mild arthritis and a couple of fatty tumors. No breed related health problems at all. We didn't see his parents and we had no idea what kind of invironment he had grown up in. We took a gamble, and it has come out wonderful. He is a healthy, extreamly well tempered dog. It could have ended up with him having hip dysplasia at the age of one and being a nutronic Labrador, but it didn't. The difference between picking him up off of the street and supporting a puppymill and/or BYB? Our choice saved a life, the other would have condemned one.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

tcasby said:


> Are all commercial breeders "puppy mills"?


No, just the ones who will wholesale to pet stores and, therefore, give up all control of where the dogs will ultimately end up.


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## chucky (Mar 5, 2007)

blackrose said:


> So you're going to the store to buy some cookies...you find one brand but purchasing them in different places causes the money you spent to go to support different causes. Buying it in the first place supports terriorism...buying it in the second place helps orphans. Which place would you want to buy the cookie from?
> 
> We picked up Blackie as a stray when he was six months old and he is now twelve and still going strong, aside from mild arthritis and a couple of fatty tumors. No breed related health problems at all. We didn't see his parents and we had no idea what kind of invironment he had grown up in. We took a gamble, and it has come out wonderful. He is a healthy, extreamly well tempered dog. It could have ended up with him having hip dysplasia at the age of one and being a nutronic Labrador, but it didn't. The difference between picking him up off of the street and supporting a puppymill and/or BYB? Our choice saved a life, the other would have condemned one.


wow, that is uniqe, i,m not gonna comment on cookies and terrorism.
as for second part, you proved my point, you can't know any of that stuff.
i saw the dog i liked, i got him, that is it. no other toughts crossed my mind.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

chucky said:


> i saw the dog i liked, i got him, that is it. no other toughts crossed my mind.



AND that is the problem..... 
an instant gratification society with to much disposable income..... and no regard for any other living creatures as long as they get what they want.


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## chucky (Mar 5, 2007)

aren,t breeders doing it for money as well?? tell me if nobody paid a penny for your dogs, whould you still breed them??
if you fight a consequense you will never defeate the couse, it,s like blaming fork for being fat.

next time you like a guy or a girl, think of all ppl who are single, never mind that the one you like, date a random single just becouse he or she suffering from lonelyness.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

chucky said:


> aren,t breeders doing it for money as well?? tell me if nobody paid a penny for your dogs, whould you still breed them??
> if you fight a consequense you will never defeate the couse, it,s like blaming fork for being fat.
> 
> next time you like a guy or a girl, think of all ppl who are single, never mind that the one you like, date a random single just becouse he or she suffering from lonelyness.


I dont make money selling puppies.... as expensive as my puppies are.... I can't tell you how deeply in the red I am with this litter..... a responsible breeder such as myself.... takes a loss..... we do it because we love the dogs, we love the breed and we work to try and make things better for the breeds that we love.... our dogs are not bred over and over and over again... they live in the house and sleep on the couch..... they are made to prove their worth to the genetic pool of the breed.... 

if I didn't feel I could sell my puppies would I breed .... NO .... not because of the money because it would mean that there were too many litters happening and not enough people that wanted the pups..... and that DOES contribute to pet overpopulation.... why have a litter when nobody wants your pups? and I am not prepared to keep 7 flat coat puppies.....in addition to my adult dogs.... and every time I breed I wonder why I do it.... but aside from that even if I didn't breed and were to purchase my next puppy there would be no way in hell that I would perpetuate and contribute to the horrible conditions that exist at commercial breeders and puppymills..... and by buying your puppy as you did you served only to perpetuate an awful industry.... all because you couldnt wait to get a puppy from someone who is trying to do it right. 

S


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## chucky (Mar 5, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I dont make money selling puppies.... as expensive as my puppies are.... I can't tell you how deeply in the red I am with this litter..... a responsible breeder such as myself.... takes a loss..... we do it because we love the dogs, we love the breed and we work to try and make things better for the breeds that we love.... our dogs are not bred over and over and over again... they live in the house and sleep on the couch..... they are made to prove their worth to the genetic pool of the breed....
> 
> if I didn't feel I could sell my puppies would I breed .... NO .... not because of the money because it would mean that there were too many litters happening and not enough people that wanted the pups..... and that DOES contribute to pet overpopulation.... why have a litter when nobody wants your pups? and I am not prepared to keep 7 flat coat puppies.....in addition to my adult dogs.... and every time I breed I wonder why I do it.... but aside from that even if I didn't breed and were to purchase my next puppy there would be no way in hell that I would perpetuate and contribute to the horrible conditions that exist at commercial breeders and puppymills..... and by buying your puppy as you did you served only to perpetuate an awful industry.... all because you couldnt wait to get a puppy from someone who is trying to do it right.
> 
> S


oh boy, once again i wasn,t looking to get a puppy that day, if i was i,d probobly could find one for free, there are many ads in newspaper,
let me tell you a little story how my ex and i got her cat, we went to a shelter, found a kitten we liked, but shelter wouldn,t give us 1 cat, only 2, than it gets better, they made us fill out like 20 pages, asked us all info that you wouldn,t want to give out, like ss number, adress, how big is our place, who lives there..ect, than they told us they can,t give us the kitten unless they run background check, and than in a few days they will let us konw, plus wanted adoption fee of 100$ for each kitten, i took all papers and walked away, bought newspaper, called the first number who was giving away kittens, 10 min. later we walked out with a kitten for free. the cat still lives with my ex, it was 5 years ago. 
now tell me did we do a right thing?


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

chucky said:


> oh boy, once again i wasn,t looking to get a puppy that day, if i was i,d probobly could find one for free, there are many ads in newspaper,
> let me tell you a little story how my ex and i got her cat, we went to a shelter, found a kitten we liked, but shelter wouldn,t give us 1 cat, only 2, than it gets better, they made us fill out like 20 pages, asked us all info that you wouldn,t want to give out, like ss number, adress, how big is our place, who lives there..ect, than they told us they can,t give us the kitten unless they run background check, and than in a few days they will let us konw, plus wanted adoption fee of 100$ for each kitten, i took all papers and walked away, bought newspaper, called the first number who was giving away kittens, 10 min. later we walked out with a kitten for free. the cat still lives with my ex, it was 5 years ago.
> now tell me did we do a right thing?


that is a completely different situation between buying a dog from a petstore and thus supporting commercial factory breeding of dogs and choosing to get a free to a good home kitten..... very different.... the people you got your kitten from were not making money off the backs of the animals.... 

very different situations..... 
s


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Chucky, I got one dog from a pet store and I lucked out and had a nice dog for 10 years. BUT, I would never, never under any circumstances do so again because I now now where those dogs come from. The fact is that every single national breed club has a code of ethics and every one forbids selling pups to petshops, wholesalers, or for auction. ALL dogs you see for sale in petshops with the exception of those brought to PetCo and PetsMart on weekends are from puppy mills. Puppy Mills are concentration camps for dogs. The bitches are kept in small cages and bred every heat until they can no longer produce. They are then, if lucky, taken out and shot. If unlucky they are abandoned to starve to death. The puppies are raised in their own filth and taken away from their mothers when they are 3-4 weeks of age, a critical time in their development. They are taken away this young in order to reach pet stores that sell puppies by 8 weeks of age. They are sold to wholesalers who then sell them to auctions or pet stores. They are shipped in crowded conditions and many die before they ever reach the stores. 

I don't know about you, but this isn't the sort of thing that I want to support.


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## chucky (Mar 5, 2007)

to be honest, i never knew what puppy mills were, never even heard that term before, tanks for info guys, yea the puppy mill practice sounds bad, before i tought the only bad guys are the back yard breeders, guess not them alone. i'll definatly keep that in mind when i'll be getting another dog(hopefully not sooner than 10-15 years from now).


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Shalva said:


> Fourth - $600 bucks is not alot of money for a puppy..... in my region and my breed you can double that and add a bit...... for a pet or a show puppy.
> 
> be careful when making generalizations.... they are almost always untrue.....


Who said $600 is a lot of money? I think I missed that one... I've been away from the thread all day lol...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I'm not sure we need yet another opinion about pet stores and puppies mills, but here it is.

I've been bragging for a while that the area I live in doesn't have pet stores that sell dogs. The last one disappeared from the mall years ago. Good riddance!

Now, about a mile from my home, in a large building vacated by Blockbuster, a Petland is opening. Petland gets its pups from Hunte - the largest conglomerate of puppy mills in the country.

There are plenty of sources for good dogs in our area, but none of them suit the impulse buyer. It took us five days to adopt Esther from a shelter and that was fast. It took that long because the shelter checked me and my references out. They wanted to make sure ours would be a suitable home for her. There was a lot of paperwork and phone calls and I had to make arrangements to have her spayed and then provide proof and a deposit to make sure I followed through.

Petland will provide pups instantly. People can browse for them (like movies) and take one home without much thought on either side of the transaction. Nobody will be turned down if they have the cash or a major credit card. (I assume you have to be 18, but I'm not sure of that.)

They'll sell a lot of puppies while more perfectly good dogs will languish in shelters. Hunte puppy mills will be encouraged to crank out more pups to fulfill a need - not based on any kind of shortage - but based strictly on convenience and impulse.

Those of you who have pet store dogs: Go ahead and love that dog, as I'm sure you do. But please don't do it again.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

Simple fact is most first time owners will never buy from a reputable breeder or adopt from a rescue organization. This is due partly to the natural inexperience of new owners and partly to the barriers put up by breeders and rescue orgs. 

How may breeders and rescue orgs will not adopt to a first time owner or a family with small children or for a dozen other reasons. Do you expect these people to slink away fully accepting their unworthyness as dog owners?

As long as people value dogs as pets there with be commercial breeders and pet stores. Simple economic fact. Another fact: puppies are cute and many first time dog owners want puppies, and they do not want to put a $500 deposit on a puppy that hasn't even been conceived yet.

Just demonizing the whole industry and wishing it away may be satisfying but does nothing to improve the situation. It's like PETA demanding everyone become vegetarians. Not going to happen.

If you want to improve the lot of pet store puppies, far more comprehensive inspection and legislation of the industry needs to be implemented. This means much larger animal welfare staffs and budgets which mean higher taxes fees, etc. This requires political involvement and realistic goals.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

tcasby said:


> Simple fact is most first time owners will never buy from a reputable breeder or adopt from a rescue organization. This is due partly to the natural inexperience of new owners and partly to the barriers put up by breeders and rescue orgs.
> 
> How may breeders and rescue orgs will not adopt to a first time owner or a family with small children or for a dozen other reasons. Do you expect these people to slink away fully accepting their unworthyness as dog owners?
> 
> ...



I think that you are absolutely right in some respects and not in others.... first I do agree that there is a natural inexperience but moreso I think that WE responsible breeders including myself need to do a better job making ourselves available to the general public... the fact is that right now I have 7 puppies on the ground.... well bred, well researched puppies.... and I didn't have to advertise them.... word of mouth was that I was having a litter, I put a litter announcement on my website and that was it. I had more homes than I had puppies and basically did no work advertising them. How is the average person supposed to know how to find me.... unlisted unpublished phone number and all....??? THAT to me is the bigger problem and I am just as guilty of it... but why should I change it.... I have enough homes as is without making any effort.... laziness perhaps.... perhaps I AM missing out on some great homes because people can't find me, I dont know.... what I do know is that I can't think of a flat coat litter right now that advertises their pups in any way other than a announcement on their personal website if they have one, or an ad in the national breed club flier. So that is our fault without a doubt. I watched my neighbor when they wanted a dog go to a backyard breeder and pick a aggressive puppy who eventually was euthanized for running their electric fence repeatedly and biting people. 

I helped them find their current golden puppy from a breeder just like me.... doesn't advertise, doesn't have to, lives on a quiet dirt road and if you didn't find her by word of mouth you would never find her..... but she has goldens with advanced titles and a stud dog that won the National Specialty show three years in a row.... not to mention having agility, obedience, hunt and tracking titles.... but how would someone find her??? /they wouldn't.... so this is partially breeders fault.... 

the other part of this again you are correct.... the fact is that I don't breed enough... nor does any responsible breeder..... I breed every 3 years sometimes four.... I have not had a ton of litters..... so where are people supposed to get their puppies because I certainly don't breed enough to fulfill the demand for puppies..... neither do any of my friends..... 

all of those folks with badly bred dogs..... would have had to come to one of us.... look at the number of dogs out there... mixes, poorly bred.... .and then figure that all of them would have to go to a responsible breeder.... do people really think that we can produce enough puppies AND still do it right???? 
if we start breeding to meet demand then don't we become exactly what we are working to stop??? 

I agree I think that responsible breeders cant meet the demand for puppies..... I am not sure that as much as I detest them, that byb'ers and commercial breeders don't have a place... I mean we are all here because we love dogs... and I sure as heck even with having two litters this summer will only have 10 puppies for sale to the public..... I am keeping one, and co-owning one with a friend of the flat coats.... then the goldens, we are keeping one so there might be 6 of them.... thats 11 puppies and I never breed two litters in a year... this is a rarity for me.... 

I agree work on better regulation of these facilities and don't allow the horrible conditions to exist.... but to be honest I just dont know if we got rid of all the things we don't like, ie. byb'ers and mills if there would be enough puppies to meet hte demand of everyone who wants a companion dog.... 

just some ramblings. 
s


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

And truthfully, although not a good ides, a person would be better off getting a puppy from a byb who at least loved her dog and just wanted to produce more like her than from a pet store that gets theirs from puppy mills.

I am NOT recommending this option.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm either going to rescue from a shelter, but if I find nothing I'm interested in, I'm going to purchase one from a responsible breeder. I've already found a Pomeranian breeder that looks really good. I don't think I'm ready for a dog yet, because I want to do some research on any breed I could possibly be interested in. In addition, my house is currently up for sale, and I can not deal with housetraining a new dog right now. 

Thanks for all your help, to everyone on this forum!!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

pup_at_heart said:


> Sadly, it sounds like you got your Keeshhound from a puppymill too. Puppymills aren't JUST in Missouri or Pennsylvania, thay are in EVERY state in the US.
> -------------
> Nope, he was from a top quality breeder. He had AKC papers and everything.


Um, MANY puppymills can (and DO) register their dogs with the AKC. The AKC is simply a registry of purebred dogs and could care less where theos dogs come from. AKC is NOT = to Quality.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> I'm either going to rescue from a shelter, but if I find nothing I'm interested in, I'm going to purchase one from a responsible breeder. I've already found a Pomeranian breeder that looks really good. I don't think I'm ready for a dog yet, because I want to do some research on any breed I could possibly be interested in. In addition, my house is currently up for sale, and I can not deal with housetraining a new dog right now.
> 
> Thanks for all your help, to everyone on this forum!!


Yay! I hope you find a perfect doggy! 
Your welcome about the help , I am glad to help!
good luck!
-Ali


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

I won't spend money at pet stores on pups, when there are plenty of them in shelters needing rescuing...

That is JUST my personal preference...However, the pet stores around here...well, lets just say I wouldn't buy a puppy or kitten from there anyway, as they are not as well cared for as they could be...they also never have anything purebred, and yet STILL ask 300-600 for a puppy!!!! Can't tell me these don't come from backyard breeders who are only looking for a buck...

A majority of the shelter dogs around here ARE dumped off dogs, too, not so much from responsible owners who just can't keep them; but I know this can vary from place to place. However, with proper training and socialization most of these canines can make wonderful pets...you just have to know how to deal with various issues that may accompany your newly adopted pet...such as anxiety, fear, potty issues, or running away from home. Most shelters won't keep, or try to adopt out dogs that are aggressive, so you hopefully wouldn't have to deal with that issue! Given the choice though, I will still adopt from a shelter than pay sky high prices in pet stores...

I am glad you are going to choose rescuing or purchasing a puppy from a good breeder; good luck in your search, and good for you for wanting to do lots of research before diving in and getting a puppy without knowing what to do with him. You Rock!!!


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## Annyz (Nov 4, 2007)

Fact..the majority of pet stores obtain their pups from brokers. These brokers often go from state to state collecting pups from particular breeders they deal with on a regular basis. Some other pet stores acquire their pups from a select group of breeders that have proven, over time, to supply them with generally healthy pups on a regular basis. The average price a puppy store pays to the broker is about 1/3 or less, of what you will pay for the puppy. 
These pups are almost NEVER raised in a home environment. They are often not socialized AT ALL until it is forced on them at the pet store. For the most part, they are pups raised solely for profit with no consideration given to meet the breed standards. They may have several conformation faults that are serious enough to cause eventual deterioration of their health or ability to function properly/normally in the future. Remember, the pet store puppy suppliers are out to make money! They don't care what two dogs they throw together as long as they produce puppies to sell. And when you buy a puppy from the pet store, you keep giving these "breeders" the money they need to continue pumping out puppies. And usually, very little of the profits go back into the dogs. 
Keep in mind that when you buy a puppy, the goal is to have a happy, well adjusted, healthy little life-long partner or family member. It can be hard to pass up a cute little pup at the pet store. You wonder what will happen to it and if maybe you could save the poor little thing by taking it home with you. But if you and hundreds of other people buy these puppies, there will just be more to replace them. The only way to put a stop to pet store puppy sales is to stop buying them. 
So, please do your research on whatever breed you are interested in and then "shop around" for a reputable breeder. And don't try to bargain shop..as the saying goes, "you get what you pay for!"
Best of luck to you!


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## Taz Monkey (Sep 2, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> I would adopt a young dog or puppy from a shelter, but some dogs are in recues because they are bad or have serious behavioral problems. I want to be cautious with that.
> 
> 
> 
> That's true. But it's no different adopting a dog, most dogs I see up for adoption are puppymill rescues. So what's the difference?




I am sitting here laughing hysterically...and wanting to cry, because the mentality that you have is why so many perfect, wonderful pets get put to sleep every year.
The fact is, almost all the animals in shelters are there because people are not responsible. They don't get their animals fixed, and they let them breed. They get a dog and didn't know that dogs take a lot of hard work. When the dog gets too big or starts eating the furniture, they get dumped at the pound. But the dog isn't doing anything wrong, they just have not been trained. I have 2 wonderful pound dogs and I couldn't ask for 2 more perfect dogs. 
Please don't buy from a pet store. All puppies come from mills, their moms are still stuck in a cage, and will continue producing litters until she can't anymore, and then she will probably be killed, because she isn't of use to the miller anymore. 
If you go to a breeder, you should research and research and research some more, until you find one who truly is responsible. Don't go with one who just "seems" responsible, get references, call around, see what clubs they belong to, what kind of champions they have in their line, etc. You can find a responsible breeder, you justhave to look a little farther than your newspaper classifieds, because you WON'T find them there.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Taz Monkey said:


> I am sitting here laughing hysterically...


I am too - but not because of the OP's comment (that was made on the first page) but this thread is a few months old, did you happen to read the other ten pages before you made your remarks?



> The fact is, almost all the animals in shelters are there because people are not responsible. They don't get their animals fixed, and they let them breed.


And where did you find your information from? This is a common concept, but it's really not logical. (It would be logical if the 'unwanted dogs' were puppies and kittens straight from the litter, and that does happen in certain areas of the country, mostly rural.) Most 'unwanted dogs' are older puppies or adults who were wanted when they were born, and whose owners for whatever reason later decided they no longer could/would keep them. Spay/neuter has no effect on these numbers.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think, when an old thread has run ten pages and started to gather some moss, it's time to shut 'er down and start fresh. 

It's unlikely that anyone arriving late is going to wade through the first nine pages and we just start spinning in little circles (like a squirrel in the middle of the road.) Also, because I'm old and lack any semblance of short-term memory, I find myself responding to a thread with the same response I posted six months ago.

I don't need more ways to embarrass myself.

So get those last-ditch commentaries posted today, 'cause at midnight, this coach is turning back into a pumpkin.

(It'll have to be closer to 8 pm Central. I can't stay up that late.)


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

LMAO! I heart you, Grandpa Ron.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

I just want to say this.....

I can't believe this thread is still going! LOL I've been gone for three months and I come back to find it still going strong....wow....talk about beating a dead horse.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

A "responsible" breeder is one who wont sell you a puppy.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

tcasby said:


> A "responsible" breeder is one who wont sell you a puppy.


Uh - correction. A responsible breeder won't just sell _anybody_ a puppy.


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