# Dew claws, would you keep or remove?



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I personally do not like dew claws on dogs at all. They snag on clothes and branches when we're outside. The nails of the dew claws are hard to clip and Pop chews on his dew claws all the time.

My personal preference is to always have them removed. Nia doesn't have any because her front ones were removed and most Paps don't grow back ones. 

Truffles has front dew claws, Pop has both front and back dew claws. They just irritate me.

I never thought about removing dew claws as a big deal because they are not even attached to the bone and just kind of flop there.

A breeder I've been chatting with recently does not believe in removing dew claws ever. She says the risk of it getting snagged on something is less than the risk of arthritis that comes from removing dew claws. She said her dogs work and a lot of the ones she's sold do dog sports as well and it's not a problem.

I'm not sure what to do. I really highly highly prefer dew claws removed. The breeder disagrees with me. Of course, I wouldn't pass up a dog just because of dew claws but I wanted your opinions.

What do you guys like? Do dew claws bother you guys?


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## cavaliermom (May 28, 2008)

I agree that they are unattractive, difficult to clip and prone to tearing. If the dews are done when the dog is a few days old, it is relatively pain free, however if they are done when the pup is a few months old, it is very painful for the dog. I know of a Border Collie which had this done at about 4 months - the pup was miserable. I do like the way the legs look w/o dews though, nice and streamlined.

d


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

It might depend on the individual dew claws. I've heard of some dogs having very useful dew claws that they use to hold and grasp things (especially with working breeds of dog), and I've heard of dogs having dew claws that just flop around and get in the way. Perhaps Pop's dew claws are of the latter type? And the breeder's dogs have better dew claws? Basil only has front dew claws, but I've never seen him have a problem with them or have them get in the way. You would think that a dog with SA such severe that he struggles to the point of breaking several of his teeth would manage to harm his dew claws if they're so prone to getting in the way, right? However, he's never had a problem. He even had REALLY long claws when I first adopted him, and he's never snagged them or anything.

I have no opinion on the actual surgery for removing dew claws, except that I don't think anyone should have the freedom to get them removed taken from them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I like dew claws. My dogs (Penny and Toby anyway, Moose's were removed) use theirs a lot, and have never injured them. I suppose dogs don't really get much use out of their back dews, but front dews can be useful. A lot of working and sport breeders say that dogs need them for running/turning/etc. Plus I just like how they look  , as long as they're nice and tight to the leg and not just flopping there.

ETA: some dewclaws ARE attached to the bone. But not all, obviously.

I wonder what the breeder means by a risk of arthritis if they're removed? That seems odd.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

cavaliermom said:


> I agree that they are unattractive, difficult to clip and prone to tearing. If the dews are done when the dog is a few days old, it is relatively pain free, however if they are done when the pup is a few months old, it is very painful for the dog. I know of a Border Collie which had this done at about 4 months - the pup was miserable. I do like the way the legs look w/o dews though, nice and streamlined.
> 
> d


I definitely will not go against the breeder's wishes and do it secretly when the pup is in my hands! I was hoping we could agree on something and get them done for the pups between 3-7 days old. She doesn't agree.

She believes the risk of arthritis is very high and especially for her sports dogs and herding dogs she doesn't want them done.

The breed I'm talking about is BCs by the way. I don't think they grow rear dew claws that often. 

Are there dogs born without front and rear dew claws?


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Arthritis because of dew claw removal? Never ehard of that. I know plenty of breeders who remove dews who have never had that problem.

But yes, if you do it when the pups are only a couple days old, no problem. But any older, and it is painful. We had Naples' done a couple years ago, because she broke one rather severely (dislocated, the whole bit. Thank GOD we muzzled her when I bandaged it, because she tried to bite me - VERY unlike her!). I could tell she was painful after the surgery, but she did not let it stop her! But it is a true amputation in many cases, so yes, it is painful!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I like my dogs to keep their dewclaws. Of ours, 4 have front dews left and one had them removed. I know this is silly but I always feel bad for Nard because he doesn't have them and they use them a LOT. Papillon dewclaws should be very tight, not flopping around anyways. They use them like thumbs to hold onto things and grab things with. Beau's ripped one dewclaw once and it really wasn't that big a deal. Other than him, we've had no injuries to their dewclaws at all. Overall, I think their use far outweighs the risk. If I bred papillons or pretty much any breed with tight dewclaws, I'd leave them. 

Now, floppy rear dewclaws are a different story. Those scare me at how they just dangle there and I would remove those. 

What breeder are you looking at? (PM?) Just curious, I still haven't settled on breeder or rescue. When are you looking at getting a pup?


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

This was the article given to me.



> With A Flick of the Wrist by Chris Zink, DVM, PhD (as seen in Dogs In Canada – September 2003)
> In the hundreds of agility trials I have attended over the years, only rarely have I seen a dog suffer an acute, serious injury. An exception happened in early May this year. I was relaxing at ringside, enjoying one of the rare rain free moments this spring offered, watching a bi-black Sheltie named 'Shadow' negotiate the Open Jumpers course with smooth abandon. Suddenly the dog took a misstep, completely misjudged where he should take off, and crashed into the jump. As he fell, his front legs landed on the fallen jump bars, and he immediately let out an agonized scream. He was still crying as he was carried out of the ring. I ran over to help and examined the dog in a shady area some distance from the ring.
> Shadow's left front leg was extremely painful and he held it stiffly away from his body. In a few minutes he had relaxed enough for me to determine that there were no major bone breaks. In fact, the main problem appeared to be a severe sprain of the carpus (wrist). Later X-rays not only confirmed my finding, but interestingly showed that the dog had preexisting arthritic changes in the carpal joints of both front legs. Thus, although this dog did have an acute agility injury, he had chronic problems, too. In fact, it is possible that the arthritis contributed to his lack of coordination in approaching the jump.
> Once Shadow was on the mend, his human teammate had many questions for me. How common is carpal arthritis in performance dogs? How painful is carpal arthritis and what can be done to relieve the pain? Will Shadow still be able to play agility, obedience and other fun doggie games? Since carpal arthritis is quite common, I thought I would share the answers in this column.
> ...


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Willowy said:


> ETA: some dewclaws ARE attached to the bone. But not all, obviously.


I just felt Basil's dew claws, and I think they are attached to the bone. It feels almost as if there is a small metacarpal bone attaching it to his wrist. Interesting! I wonder if dogs that have bones attaching their dew claws tend to have better luck keeping their dew claws from being injured?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think there are any dogs ever born without front dewclaws. I've never heard of it anyway.

I do think that it's mostly BC breeders who like to keep dews for sports/working. I've heard they help with tight cornering. Which working/sport BCs do a lot of!

ETA: just saw the article. That makes sense. I couldn't understand how just _removing_ the dews would cause arthritis, but for working/sports dogs doing a lot of tight turns, I can see how the dewclaws would add stability, and loss of that stability could cause arthritis.


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## Adustgerm (Jul 29, 2009)

We have a pyrenees and they have double dew claws and they actually use theirs. It is actually against breed standard to show a pyr without dew claws. Most breed standards state if a certain breed is supposed to have dew claws or not.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I can't tell a difference between maneuverability between my non dewclawed dog and the others. I DO notice though that he seems to have a harder time grabbing ahold of bully sticks and the like. The others hook their dewclaws around them and he has to balance it between his paws. 

all my dog's dews are attached to the bone and none dangle. I don't know how Beau ripped his but it wasn't a big deal. He's very hyperactive so he was probably doing something stupid lol. It bled a lot but other than that was not a problem. He's hurt himself much worse before. 

Funnily enough none of my shelties had dewclaws (they were all removed). They're another breed you'd think would keep them since they're a big sports breed.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Nargle said:


> I wonder if dogs that have bones attaching their dew claws tend to have better luck keeping their dew claws from being injured?


 Probably! I can imagine that if the dewclaws were just flopping around, they could easily get snagged on something.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My friend's beagle has dews on all four feet that are not attached. They're awful. they flop when she runs and walks and they stick out really far from her legs. I am always concerned they'll get ripped completely off. If my dog had those, I would have them removed when they went under for a spay or something.


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## calpapmom11 (Sep 1, 2010)

Calvin is our first dog with dew claws. All of our other dogs have been bred for flushing birds in the field, so dew claws have been removed to avoid any tearing accidents running through rough brush. I was taken aback at first by Calvin having them, but I have found them to be no trouble at all. They are tight to his front paws, easy to clip and they never bother him. When I get another pap (and I will because I am now addicted to these little dogs!), I'll be fine with dew claws.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> My friend's beagle has dews on all four feet that are not attached. They're awful. they flop when she runs and walks and they stick out really far from her legs. I am always concerned they'll get ripped completely off. If my dog had those, I would have them removed when they went under for a spay or something.


Huh! That's very interesting. I don't believe I have payed very much attention to other peoples' dogs, because I can't recall ever meeting a dog with dew claws like that. Basil's dew claws aren't like that at all. Sometimes barely see Basil's dew claws under his fur, as they're very streamlined and tight against his legs. This is a very informative thread :biggrin1:

I wonder if breeds with floppy, non-attached dew claws have a higher chance of getting arthritis or maybe it depends more on the dog's behavior? I'd imagine a herder would need to perform more tight/fast turns than a retriever.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

> "Interestingly, this condition is much more common in dogs that have had their front dewclaws removed."


I have a huge problem with drawing conclusions of cause and effect based on anecdotal evidence. I think it's an interesting idea that makes intuitive sense, but I think it needs to be looked at more rigorously.

Having said that, I don't like the floppy rear dewclaws because I see them injured quite commonly with normal daily activities. Tight dewclaws IME don't really generally cause problems except in very specific circumstances, such as hunting dogs and I don't feel a need to remove front dewclaws or tight rear dewclaws.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Icesis has her dews, Nea does not.

Icesis' dewclaws are hard to trim, because they curl over right out of the toe, which makes it hard to safely trim them. I'd glad Nea doesn't have hers.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Nargle said:


> Huh! That's very interesting. I don't believe I have payed very much attention to other peoples' dogs, because I can't recall ever meeting a dog with dew claws like that. Basil's dew claws aren't like that at all. Sometimes barely see Basil's dew claws under his fur, as they're very streamlined and tight against his legs. This is a very informative thread :biggrin1:
> 
> I wonder if breeds with floppy, non-attached dew claws have a higher chance of getting arthritis or maybe it depends more on the dog's behavior? I'd imagine a herder would need to perform more tight/fast turns than a retriever.


This dog's were hard to miss. It was honestly one of the first things I thought when I saw her the first time. 

They looked like these:










and they flopped every time she moved. 

My dogs' dews are so tight you can't see them at all.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

All 4 of Pop's dew claws just dangle there floppily it's so gross. When he chews on his front ones they move around too @[email protected]

I think Truffles' front ones are attached, I'm not sure though, I don't remember that clearly.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

If given a choice, I will always have them removed. My Ami has front dew claws (attached to bone) and one day at the dog park she got the nail caught in someone else's collar. We had to put her under to cut the nail completely off, she was in so much pain for 2 weeks. When she was a puppy, I had considered having them removed when she was spayed, but everyone talked me out of it...that whole ordeal made me reqret my choice. If she had to go through another surgery, I would have them removed, but I won't put her under for just that. 

So when I was getting Lupa, I had requested that the dew claws were removed when young. I don't notice any difference between the ability to hold bones between Lupa and Ami. 

That's just my personal preference...


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## Bubbly (Mar 20, 2010)

Bubbles still have all 4 of her dew claws. Her front two are attached to the bone and very tight to the body, while her back two are just flopping around (like the picture shown before).

We've never had problems with her dew claws catching on bushes or tall grass (even the floppy back ones) in the 2 years since I had her. I have seen her move her front ones in agility, or when she's grabbing things.

I think I must be weird. I always find it a little cute to see her bouncing towards me and her back dew claws flopping with her as she runs.

I've considered getting the back ones removed, but she had her spay from the Humane Society before she came home to me, and so far we haven't had a reason to put her under so the claws are still here. Given the choice now, I don't think I will remove them.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I personally do not like dew claws on dogs at all. They snag on clothes and branches when we're outside. The nails of the dew claws are hard to clip and Pop chews on his dew claws all the time.
> 
> My personal preference is to always have them removed. Nia doesn't have any because her front ones were removed and most Paps don't grow back ones.
> 
> ...


Dewclaws don't bother me. 
Dudes were removed at 8 weeks old when he was under for his neuter. I was in the surgery room when it was done. When the dewclaw came off, he SCREAMED and did the puppy-hit-by-a-car "aye-aye-aye-aye"...
God. I feel horrible just thinking about that. NEVER again.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

From what I've heard when you remove them at around 3-7 days (which is when they're usually done) the pups only whimper a little and don't really notice it too much. 

I think 8 weeks old is a little too old to do them though. Wait..how did Dude scream if he was put under for his neuter???


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> From what I've heard when you remove them at around 3-7 days (which is when they're usually done) the pups only whimper a little and don't really notice it too much.
> 
> I think 8 weeks old is a little too old to do them though. *Wait..how did Dude scream if he was put under for his neuter???*


That was confusing to me, as well.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I just recently got a Shih Tzu puppy. I was very surprised that she had the front dewclaws taken off. I have never taken front dew claws off except when we had the Greyhounds and on my sister's Basenjis. Shih Tzu's sometimes have back dew claws and I thought that was what she meant when she said he had been to the Vet to get his dew claws taken off.

Our Vet will not take off dew claws at any age.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

The Chows and our toy Poodle do not have dews. None have issues grabbing things or holding their chews. Everyone else has them. None have the floppy type and I've never had an injury. I don't mind either way


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

As a breeder I use to remove them at the same time we did tails, however for many years now I have left them on (fronts as we very seldom get rear dews). I have left them on because I have read many articles on hyper-exstension and decided my performance dogs would be much better with dews on than off. I have 4 dogs in my house at this time that have their front dews, oldest is 13 yrs, youngest is 14 months, all the dogs except the pup have been out hunting (earthwork, not g2g at trials) countless times, 3 of them have been heavily competed in performance events, they also get to race around our farm and in the woods almost daily for every season including ice and snow...........not one injury to either the dews or the dogs. I have also done x-rays on my dogs that compete, not a hint of arthritis (not bad for 11 yr old dogs


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## Mizuno (Jun 9, 2010)

Deebs is double dew clawed, front attached, back not. She uses her front dewclaws like thumbs, so I could never remove them. She has never ripped them (knock on wood) and I think it would be taking something away from her if I removed them. I did, however, look into getting her back ones removed but decided against it because they haven't been a problem. They do flop around, but she doesn't chew on them or mess with them.

Zuni doesn't have his dewclaws, but I can tell from the horrible scars that he did have them on front and at least one of his back feet. Thank goodness he is a poodle, otherwise those scars would an eyesore. Heef has his removed as well... but it seems to be 50/50 with greyhounds as to whether or not theirs are removed or not.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I see it the same way I see tail docking and ear cropping - unnecessary removal of body parts. If dew claws were so terrible, evolution would have gotten rid of them (wolves have dew claws). I would never have them removed just 'because it looks better'. 

The thing about them snagging on clothing and stuff, the same sort of thing is said about tails on breeds that are normally docked, that they are 'prone to fractures' and other rubbish like that.

Of course removing them for medical reasons is completely different.


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## Conard10 (Sep 25, 2010)

Our current Lab has all of her dew claws removed (I think when she was around 3 days old). 

Our last dog, a lab mix, had all 4 when we adopted her. The front ones weren't an issue and didn't really flop around. But, her back ones were very floppy and one time got caught when hiking in the woods. So, we decided and it was recommended by our vet, to have her back ones removed when she was under for spay. 

They were bandaged for a few days but I don't recall her acting as though she was in pain or trying to remove the bandages. I'm sure it wasn't a pleasant experience for her, but we thought it was better than them getting caught while hiking in the woods.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I see it the same way I see tail docking and ear cropping - unnecessary removal of body parts. If dew claws were so terrible, evolution would have gotten rid of them (wolves have dew claws).


Dogs are not wolves, and did not 'evolve', they have been selectively bred by humans for thousands of years, and 'sturdy dewclaws' were not one of the things people selected for. There are dewclaws that are attached and unattached, for instance, and unattached dews DO have a higher risk of being ripped right off the paw. It's an injury that is difficult and painful to heal, whereas if it's done when the pup is only a few days old, it is only a minor thing. Some people choose to remove dews to prevent any 'what if' injuries, while others do not. Both are equally valid personal choices.

In the wild, dogs with weak dews prone to being torn off of course would have been more likely to die by infection/injury and not pass on their genes. But that is not something that happens with domestic dogs, especially in non-working breeds.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Pai said:


> Dogs are not wolves, and did not 'evolve', they have been selectively bred by humans for thousands of years, and 'sturdy dewclaws' were not one of the things people selected for. There are dewclaws that are attached and unattached, for instance, and unattached dews DO have a higher risk of being ripped right off the paw. It's an injury that is difficult and painful to heal, whereas if it's done when the pup is only a few days old, it is only a minor thing. Some people choose to remove dews to prevent any 'what if' injuries, while others do not. Both are equally valid personal choices.
> 
> In the wild, dogs with weak dews prone to being torn off of course would have been more likely to die by infection/injury and not pass on their genes. But that is not something that happens with domestic dogs, especially in non-working breeds.


That's why I said having them removed for medical reasons is different than removing them just because one finds them unsightly. Obviously if they are flopping around and get ripped on a regular basis, that's a medical reason.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

With my breed the double rear dew claws are attached firmly by bone & are quite invasive to remove...Plus, with my breed, the are a sign of breed purity & should never be removed!
Do they bother me?...Doesn't matter as they are a part of what my dogs/breed are!:wave:


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Dew claws don't bother me. I clip them at the same time as the rest of the nails and have only had one dog with one slightly 'floppy' rear dew claw that we watched in case of a snag problem, but that never happened.

I have read that many dogs are born without rear dew claws at all. Is this specific to certain types (or breeds) and not to others?

SOB


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> I have read that many dogs are born without rear dew claws at all. Is this specific to certain types (or breeds) and not to others?
> 
> SOB


I believe some breeds have them occasionally, some breeds almost never get them and some have double back dew claws. For example some Chis get them, some don't. I haven't heard of a Pap that gets rear dew claws yet and Pyrs have double dew claws.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

all I can say is that I've never known a papillon or a sheltie born with rear dewclaws.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Keep the dew claws on a performance dog. Removing them destabilizes the ankles. I am surprised ths is not a big deal in working sled dogs. 

My breed is born with fronts. The rear legs are heavy and strong. If you watch and ACD in a hard turn in slow motion it is easy they are of value. On ACDs they seem to be tight. The nails can be a problem. I try to keep them short as possible.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Matrix has front dewclaws and he chews on the nails all the time. Mitch has his removed as a few day old pup. 
I prefer no dewclaws, but I don't really have a choice as I prefer to adopt adult dogs. I would NEVER have them removed after the dog is a few days old, unless they were posing a problem.


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