# How much could I get for Doberman/Great Dane puppies?



## lukulele (Oct 11, 2011)

well first off, the mother dog (our dog), has a pure bred great dane and a pure bred Doberman as parents (though I'm not too sure if we have any documentation to prove it)
and the father of the puppies is a pure bred doberman with a blood link of 20 years

We're going to get everything they need to be done, microchipped, vacinated and whatever

how much do you think we could get for them each?

(they're currently almost 3 weeks old, for anyone who's wondering, and those pictures were today)


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I really hope this wasn't an intentional breeding. Assuming it wasn't, you should only be asking for the cost of the puppies vet care, and I really hope you have your female spayed after this. Continuing to breed unhealth-tested dogs makes you nothing more than a BYB.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Depends.

Have the parents been health-tested for, at the minimum, hip/elbow displaysia, cardiomyopathy, CERF, and thyroid? How about Von Willibrand's Syndrome? These are all health issues seen in the breeds you listed.


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## lisaj1354 (Feb 23, 2008)

From most people who care about dogs? Not a penny.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

lisaj1354 said:


> From most people who care about dogs? Not a penny.


Exactly my thoughts.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I might take one if you paid _me_.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

No more than you have put into the pups for vet bills, food, etc...Please fix your dogs to prevent this from happening again.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm sorry but you're not going to get any response other than the above on this forum, we endorse ONLY responsible breeders and responsible breeders don't breed mixes without a purpose. 

You're not going to make a ton of money on these pups, in fact you'll be lucky if you cover your vet expenses and food costs. Be sure to carefully screen any potential homes these pups go to a s amany large breed dogs will end up in the wrong hands and end up neglected, abused or in the fight ring.

Have Mom spayed so you don't end up with another litter, hopefully you at least waited until 2 years old to breed her as breeding too young could cause severe health conditions down the road (breeding a dog on first heat is the equivelent of allowing a 10 year old human to get pregnant)


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I agree with has already been said.

Charge just enough to cover vet bills, puppy-raising expenses. You should not be making money on mixed breed pups whose parents have not been screened for genetic problems (those such as Shaina mentioned). If you're lucky, you'll break even. A purebred sire with a "blood link of 20 years" means nothing if the pups aren't purebred. 

Also, please don't let the pups go to their new homes before 8 weeks of age. I've noticed a lot of people sending pups home at 5-7 weeks. They have lot of learning from their mum and siblings yet before 8 weeks, and separating the litter before then can cause behavioral problems. If someone wants a puppy earlier, have them visit the pups, "claim" one, and put a deposit down on the pup. If they're not willing to wait until 8 weeks, they shouldn't be getting a dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> A purebred sire with a "blood link of 20 years" means nothing if the pups aren't purebred.


 
A purebred sire with a 'link' of 20 years means nothing in Purebreds if the dog it's self isn't titled and health tested. My girls father and grandfather are international champions, SCH3 titled and Grandpa is a SAR dog, my girls wasn't worthy of breeding (due to repeated demodex and temperment issues) and therefore was spayed.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

I vote you take them to a shelter (preferably a no-kill and/or breed-specific rescue) and let them place the dogs. Both of those breeds have MANY health issues and you shouldnt charge a penny (nor should those dogs have been bred in the first place).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

PatchworkRobot said:


> I vote you take them to a shelter (preferably a no-kill and/or breed-specific rescue) and let them place the dogs. Both of those breeds have MANY health issues and you shouldnt charge a penny (nor should those dogs have been bred in the first place).


I think it is better if the (hopefully accidental) breeder carefully screens potential homes and places the puppies himself for the cost of their vaccinations. While I'm not in favor of pediatric S/N, especially in larger dogs, this might be a good argument for it, and that could also be covered in the price of the pups. I don't see why he should dump them on a shelter or rescue. Isn't that what's always being called irresponsible? If it's irresponsible, why encourage someone to do it? If the pups did make it out of a shelter alive, there is no reason to think that the homes would be more carefully selected than if the owner of the dogs finds them homes himself.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I think it is better if the (hopefully accidental) breeder carefully screens potential homes and places the puppies himself for the cost of their vaccinations. While I'm not in favor of pediatric S/N, especially in larger dogs, this might be a good argument for it, and that could also be covered in the price of the pups. I don't see why he should dump them on a shelter or rescue. Isn't that what's always being called irresponsible? If it's irresponsible, why encourage someone to do it? If the pups did make it out of a shelter alive, there is no reason to think that the homes would be more carefully selected than if the owner of the dogs finds them homes himself.


Only problem I see with this is that the owner seems far more concerned with what kind of profit they can make off the pups than whether they go to the best possible homes.


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## Dezzoi (Sep 19, 2011)

Being mixed.......not very much.
And I agree, I do hope this wasn't a planned breeding in the hopes of getting a lot of money for mixes. Being a mix between a giant breed and a large breed (which a lot of people view as aggressive and mean, sad to say.) will be a bit tough to find homes for.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Only problem I see with this is that the owner seems far more concerned with what kind of profit they can make off the pups than whether they go to the best possible homes.


Well, if he doesn't "get it" from this thread, he's going to find out when he starts trying to sell them that there's not a very profitable market for large mixed breeds.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Well, if he doesn't "get it" from this thread, he's going to find out when he starts trying to sell them that there's not a very profitable market for large mixed breeds.


Oh, agreed, I'm just not sure from the attitude of the OP's first post, that they will do as good or better job of homing the pups. A shelter could possibly be a better choice in this situation. Hard to say without further information from the OP.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> I think it is better if the (hopefully accidental) breeder carefully screens potential homes and places the puppies himself for the cost of their vaccinations. While I'm not in favor of pediatric S/N, especially in larger dogs, this might be a good argument for it, and that could also be covered in the price of the pups. I don't see why he should dump them on a shelter or rescue. Isn't that what's always being called irresponsible? If it's irresponsible, why encourage someone to do it? If the pups did make it out of a shelter alive, there is no reason to think that the homes would be more carefully selected than if the owner of the dogs finds them homes himself.


It is kind of "dumping" them off... but they are going to be large dogs and it's very probable that they are going to have health issues. A good shelter (like a breed-specific one, as I mentioned) will screen homes of potential owners and they tend to be quite choosy of who their dogs go to, at least in my experience. Chances are that somebody is going to see them as cute puppies and will impulsively buy one. What most potential buyers of these puppies are not going to think about (or know) is that they are going to probably be HUGE and full of energy. A lot of unsuspecting puppy buyers dump puppies off at shelters for this reason. Not only that but I"m willing to bet that many of the potential buyers are not going to be prepared for the possibility of costly vet bills and, when the dog gets sick, will dump the dog off somewhere. Of course, there are tons of other possible issues too but I don't have time to list them all. So why not just cut out the middle man and take them to the shelter now? I'm a little pessimistic, sure, but I've heard too many painful stories to assume the best.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

PatchworkRobot said:


> It is kind of "dumping" them off... but they are going to be large dogs and it's very probable that they are going to have health issues. A good shelter (like a breed-specific one, as I mentioned) will screen homes of potential owners and they tend to be quite choosy of who their dogs go to, at least in my experience. Chances are that somebody is going to see them as cute puppies and will impulsively buy one. What most potential buyers of these puppies are not going to think about (or know) is that they are going to probably be HUGE and full of energy. A lot of unsuspecting puppy buyers dump puppies off at shelters for this reason. Not only that but I"m willing to bet that many of the potential buyers are not going to be prepared for the possibility of costly vet bills and, when the dog gets sick, will dump the dog off somewhere. Of course, there are tons of other possible issues too but I don't have time to list them all. So why not just cut out the middle man and take them to the shelter now? I'm a little pessimistic, sure, but I've heard too many painful stories to assume the best.


Largely because no kill shelters/rescues do not have the room to take on a whole litter of mixed breed puppies. We've got lots of mixed breed puppies at the shelter I'm employed at that are just sitting there. We're not teaming with money to take on these cases.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Oh my heavens...why do people think that "real" breeders make money off their pups? Between all the testing, vet care and food, I would hazard a guess that they are often in the hole or pretty close to it.

To answer the OP's question...only what you have expended at the time of adoption. Not a penny more.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

IMO the health issues are probably going to be phenomenal. The life expectancy will probably be short. I would hope that the female is now spayed. I love puppies as everyone else does. But I, personally, am still trying to fix the issues with a rescue who was an experiment; possibly a potential guard dog mating to try and produce something of a mean animal not to mention a money-making venture. Not all are rescued and on death row. Mine just got lucky. There are not enough people in the world to save all these poor puppies IMO.

I agree that the OP find them homes and be honest with the potential new owners. I would also hope that the pups be seen by a vet before they are placed. I know my very first AKC Doberman pup was diagnosed with a heart problem right from the get-go. I think Wobblers disease was forgotten to be mentioned also. Those two breeds are in the top of the list for bloat also........which can kill in a matter of a couple hours. Please have them vet checked before you find them homes.......for their sakes.

It would be good to have them vaccinated before homing them too IMO. You could charge for the vetting and the pup be free. I would screen the adopters........once those pups begin to grow the new owners might become overwhelmed and then we all know what happens next in some instances.

This is all only my opinion of course.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

PatchworkRobot said:


> It is kind of "dumping" them off... but they are going to be large dogs and it's very probable that they are going to have health issues. A good shelter (like a breed-specific one, as I mentioned) will screen homes of potential owners and they tend to be quite choosy of who their dogs go to, at least in my experience. Chances are that somebody is going to see them as cute puppies and will impulsively buy one. What most potential buyers of these puppies are not going to think about (or know) is that they are going to probably be HUGE and full of energy. A lot of unsuspecting puppy buyers dump puppies off at shelters for this reason. Not only that but I"m willing to bet that many of the potential buyers are not going to be prepared for the possibility of costly vet bills and, when the dog gets sick, will dump the dog off somewhere. Of course, there are tons of other possible issues too but I don't have time to list them all. So why not just cut out the middle man and take them to the shelter now? I'm a little pessimistic, sure, but I've heard too many painful stories to assume the best.


 
There are far too many areas that don't have a no kill shelter and known dobe mixes are more likely to get euthinized than adopted even as pups. Now if they wanted assistance from a RESCUE that would be different, I would NEVER tell people to dump their pups on any shelter to find homes!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

What about fostering with a Doberman or Great Dane rescue Carla? That way the rescue isn't overloaded, but the OP gets the help I'm certain they'll need in placing these pups into good homes.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

That could work if they are willing, far better than a shelter.


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## Wag_More (Jun 7, 2011)

Not much. At this point all you can do is make sure the puppies get to a caring home. The first thing you need to do is go to the vet, get them all health checked, vaccinated, dewormed, microchipped, the whole thing ( keep track of the cost per puppy ). Make sure everyone (mom and puppies when theyre ready ) are on high quality dog food. When the puppies are 8 weeks they can go to their new (screened) homes. Charge only what it cost you to care for the puppies. Then consider how you can prevent this situation in the future, ideally by getting mom spayed.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> There are far too many areas that don't have a no kill shelter and known dobe mixes are more likely to get euthinized than adopted even as pups. Now if they wanted assistance from a RESCUE that would be different, I would NEVER tell people to dump their pups on any shelter to find homes!


Ok so perhaps I used the wrong word. Generally I use the words shelter and rescue interchangeably. My bad. In no situation would I ever suggest that puppies get sent to a situation where they'd likely be euthanized.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Wag_More said:


> Not much. At this point all you can do is make sure the puppies get to a caring home. The first thing you need to do is go to the vet, get them all health checked, vaccinated, dewormed, microchipped, the whole thing ( keep track of the cost per puppy ). Make sure everyone (mom and puppies when theyre ready ) are on high quality dog food. When the puppies are 8 weeks they can go to their new (screened) homes. Charge only what it cost you to care for the puppies. *Then consider how you can prevent this situation in the future, ideally by getting mom spayed*.


Don't forget dad...he should be neutered as well.


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## beverley (Oct 7, 2010)

as some of you know, we have an 'oops' litter from gypsy. 'oops' meaning we didnt know she was pregnant when she came here.
when the pups are ready to be homed (8+ weeks) we will advertise, but the rescue will be doing home checks. they will obviously charge as they will vaccinate, chip and spay/neuter the pups. we are keeping all the receipts from vet bills etc and thats all we are getting back, plus a discounted rate to have gypsy spayed.
i wouldnt dream of making money from these poor pups, i only thank their lucky stars that we did end up with them, and gypsy wasnt kept by her previous owners purely to make money from.


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## lisaj1354 (Feb 23, 2008)

I assume that the OP is long gone from this thread, because:

a) none of us gave her/him the $$ answer he/she was looking for

b) very probably bred the dog for profit. 

c) couldn't care less about spaying and neutering or doing the right thing by his/her dog


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm embarrassed to even read a question like, "how much could I get" for puppies. Besides the irresponsible breeding of the OP's dogs, it's sad that the question wasn't more along the lines of, "what should I do now".


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

wil.wish said:


> I'm embarrassed to even read a question like, "how much could I get" for puppies. Besides the irresponsible breeding of the OP's dogs, it's sad that the question wasn't more along the lines of, "what should I do now".


Yep. It's not going to be busy to find them good homes. I don't think they lurked on the forum any before posting that question let alone that any dog (purebred, mixed) price will vary across the country just like any market (cost of spays are different for shelters, vaccines, x-rays for breeders, etc). Can't answer their question even if you wanted to.


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## a7dk (Mar 30, 2011)

wil.wish said:


> I'm embarrassed to even read a question like, "how much could I get" for puppies. Besides the irresponsible breeding of the OP's dogs, it's sad that the question wasn't more along the lines of, "what should I do now".


That was exactly my thought. I was kind of hoping the OP would come back, though. I'd be interested in his/her thoughts on all the responses.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

They're usually of the, "You don't know me, my vet checked my dogs for everything, they're totally healthy, I know none of MY puppies will ever end up in a shelter, you're all a bunch of judgmental jerks" variety. I will be pleasantly surprised if the OP comes back and is civil.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I'd be surprised if the OP comes back at all. 

OP- If you do come back, take what everyone has said to heart, we are only trying to look out for those pups. You should NOT be trying to make any money off them, that is just irresponsible (this whole thing is irresponsible if you were doing it on purpose). If you have any ethics at all, you will only charge for what you put into them (i.e shots, vet visits, worming, food, etc). And then use that money to spay and neuter the male (if you own the male).


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

I have been searching for a Doberdane puppy and it seems others have also. But I want one with a docked tail. Which I realize must be done at 3 days old Only.
The reason why I want one is, I had one and he was the smartest dog I ever had and I've had 4 purebred dobermans.
I have to disagree with the Insults on here about cross breeding Dobermans & Great Danes.
The Great Dane in them seems to tame the Hunt Drive in the Doberman which makes them easier to train. 
The Doberman make them more alert and protective.
I think the Hybrid fills a niche for someone like myself that loves Great Danes but would like a bit more security type dog, Smaller, Less Jawls ( slobber ) and No Tail, which I find to be weapons of mass destruction.They seem to always knock their tails bloody because they are so powerful, And they hurt both people & themselves.

If someone here does not think they are worth Anything, they never Knew one !
They are worth what Someone is Willing to Pay. I would Pay a lot, I would travel Far and I would take 2 or 3 just to see that their ears were cropped and found homes where I could stay in touch just to watch them grow.

But undocked tails or to late to be cropped is a deal breaker. 
I Really Really Want a Male, Docked & Cropped Dobie Dane. Mine was a harlequin but any color except white would be fine.

If anyone can help me find My Dream Dog.................I'll name him after you : ) Lonny


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## beverley (Oct 7, 2010)

i know absolutely nothing about breeding dogs, apart from there are a barrage of health tests that need to be done.
mixing breeds then giving them designer names is ridiculous, although it goes on everywhere!
some people have suggested that gypsy's pups be called 'boxmas' as she is a boxer x mastiff, how ridiculous!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think 'boxtiff' is a much more marketable option.


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## Cyric (Jan 30, 2011)

beverley said:


> mixing breeds then giving them designer names is ridiculous, although it goes on everywhere!
> some people have suggested that gypsy's pups be called 'boxmas' as she is a boxer x mastiff, how ridiculous!


THANK YOU!! I'm so glad I'm not the only one with this opinion. 10 years ago a shih poo was a mutt. Now it's a designer breed that people pay hundreds of dollars to own when shelters are full of beautiful, well balanced dogs ready for their forever home!! (Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.)


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Lonny said:


> I have been searching for a Doberdane puppy and it seems others have also. But I want one with a docked tail. Which I realize must be done at 3 days old Only.
> The reason why I want one is, I had one and he was the smartest dog I ever had and I've had 4 purebred dobermans.
> I have to disagree with the Insults on here about cross breeding Dobermans & Great Danes.
> The Great Dane in them seems to tame the Hunt Drive in the Doberman which makes them easier to train.
> ...



You need to really think about this. It is irresponsible to support back yard breeders and you inadvertently (or not) are contributing to the overpopulation of local shelters and rescues.

If you need a reality check that your 'dream dog' is not really all that rare, just go to petfinder. Go ask the local Great Dane or Dobie rescue as well and see what the experts have to say about your nonsense. 

It took me all of 2 seconds to find this guy: http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/21275621 
And unfortunately, there are a heck of a lot more like him being euthanized because people like the OP thought they could make a quick buck.

shame.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Cyric said:


> THANK YOU!! I'm so glad I'm not the only one with this opinion. 10 years ago a shih poo was a mutt. Now it's a designer breed that people pay hundreds of dollars to own when shelters are full of beautiful, well balanced dogs ready for their forever home!! (Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.)


Seriously? It's a pet peeve of nearly everyone on this forum.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I am now the owner of two designer breeds: I am absolutely embarrassed to say it.....I and my Parents did not know any better five years ago and bought them. I will do my future designer breed purchases from a rescue. This is a promise.

My newest rescue is possibly the result of such breeding..........but I rescued as promised. 


On November 7, 2011 the ASPCA fields investigations raided another puppy mill and rescued 175 small dogs in Hot Springs Arkansas. The owner was arrested on charges of felony animal cruelty. This was in my Email today.

Just how many of those animals have a future? This is only one in many many many I am sure.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

+two said:


> You need to really think about this. It is irresponsible to support back yard breeders and you inadvertently (or not) are contributing to the overpopulation of local shelters and rescues.
> 
> If you need a reality check that your 'dream dog' is not really all that rare, just go to petfinder. Go ask the local Great Dane or Dobie rescue as well and see what the experts have to say about your nonsense.
> 
> ...


I know My Dream Dog is out there or someone is going to have a litter anyway. I just have to find them in time to dock his tail at 3 days old by a Vet.
I do check petfinder and have searched the internet many hours. The dog you showed is not docked or cropped. I would take an adult, but I doult I will find one that is docked and that is a deal breaker for me.
Call me superfical but thats what I want and I wish anyone that has a litter would understand That is one reason a person would want a doberdane in the first place. A Smaller Dane without a tail.Not to mention how their personality traits compliment each other : )


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## R.Scott (Sep 18, 2011)

I hope this was an accident litter. (which is still irresponsible if it was)
There are too many unwanted dogs in the world for people to keep on breeding...It's just adding to the problem.
I would seriously consider getting your dogs fixed...and don't worry about how much you can get for these dogs...I would start worrying about how you will find suitable homes for them.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

I cant believe I missed this thread!

There are a few things I just wont do:

I wont point a firearm at someone whether it's loaded or not.
I wont beat my dog for anything he did, even if he eats my new tablet or bites another dog.
I wont pay for a mutt. (except of course an adoption fee from a shelter.)


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Lonny said:


> ... I just have to find them in time *to dock his tail at 3 days old by a Vet.*
> ..., but *I doult I will find one that is docked and that is a deal breaker for me.*
> Call me *superfical* but thats what I want and I wish anyone that has a litter would understand That is one reason a person would want a doberdane in the first place. A Smaller Dane without a tail.Not to mention how their personality traits compliment each other : )


Wow, superficial really doesn't cut it for me reading this! So you want a dog with a specific, artificially changed, look and seemingly don't care about anything else like health of the parents etc???


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Lonny said:


> I have been searching for a Doberdane puppy and it seems others have also. But I want one with a docked tail. Which I realize must be done at 3 days old Only.
> The reason why I want one is, I had one and he was the smartest dog I ever had and I've had 4 purebred dobermans.
> I have to disagree with the Insults on here about cross breeding Dobermans & Great Danes.
> The Great Dane in them seems to tame the Hunt Drive in the Doberman which makes them easier to train.
> ...


Sorry, but people here will NOT refer you to the type of greeder that creates such crosses. I've seen such dogs in rescue, look there for your dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Lonny said:


> I know My Dream Dog is out there or someone is going to have a litter anyway. I just have to find them in time to dock his tail at 3 days old by a Vet.
> I do check petfinder and have searched the internet many hours. The dog you showed is not docked or cropped. I would take an adult, but I doult I will find one that is docked and that is a deal breaker for me.
> Call me superfical but thats what I want and I wish anyone that has a litter would understand That is one reason a person would want a doberdane in the first place. A Smaller Dane without a tail.Not to mention how their personality traits compliment each other : )


Anyone with such a litter would not be able to come HERE and advertise, they'd be banned immeadiately as we do not allow people to advertise litters or any dog to be rehomed. You are, quite simply barking up the wrong tree at this site.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Lonny said:


> I know My Dream Dog is out there or someone is going to have a litter anyway. I just have to find them in time to dock his tail at 3 days old by a Vet.
> I do check petfinder and have searched the internet many hours. The dog you showed is not docked or cropped. I would take an adult, but I doult I will find one that is docked and that is a deal breaker for me.
> Call me superfical but thats what I want and I wish anyone that has a litter would understand That is one reason a person would want a doberdane in the first place. A Smaller Dane without a tail.Not to mention how their personality traits compliment each other : )



Superficial is one word for it . . .


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

Sybille said:


> Wow, superficial really doesn't cut it for me reading this! So you want a dog with a specific, artificially changed, look and seemingly don't care about anything else like health of the parents etc???


 I am hoping to find a litter that is conceived and just not born yet.Or that My Dream Dog is out there already. Yes I would hope the parents are Heathly, but Knowing weather they were or not has not prevented me from Adopting any of my other dogs . Four of which must of been from doberman breeders orginally. One had heartworms and I adopted him anyway. As a adopter, you take your chances. And I would again for my dream dog.
I have to Find the dog before I ask the right questions about the parents.

I don't think you should be so hard on people searching for their dream dogs.
If the dog is out there or somebody is going to breed anyway, I want one.

In the perfect world there would be NO dogs for sale, Only Reservse Your Puppy ads and they would all be spoken for before birth and they would be MicroChipped to go back to the Breeder if they ended up in a shelter at the communitys expense.
I just want to Reserve a puppy, if i can't find one.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

I know what you mean. I have one of those designer dogs. I couldn't believe it when my dream dog showed up on Craigslist: Black Mouth Cur x Rhodesian Ridgeback, perfect dog x perfect dog -- the perfect dog squared. He's designed for hunting feral hogs (although for me he's a family pet). I didn't coin a name for the cross -- I just call him a ridgeback cause he has a ridge on his back, but technically he's a cur, since BMC is not a "pedigree" breed. The breeder is introducing ridgeback into his cur stock, hoping for better endurance.

I was conflicted about paying for a mixed breed but $150 seems a bargain for the perfect dog, even considering the risks involved with a 1st generation cross. He has met or exceeded all my expectations. Anyway, I'm just saying, don't give up the search -- you think its a great idea, there must be other people out there with the same thought. 

I always laughed at people who took the thing-a-doodles and whatchama-poos seriously, but the other day I met a labadoodle, a big black fluffy dog. Understand, I have a lot of respect for poodles, but I have to admit, I see this as an improvement.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> As a adopter, you take your chances.


This is very true. I've taken that chance many times and it is paid off.

But when you buy from a BYB, you're not adopting. You're enabling and encouraging backyard breeders. And you'll find little encouragement here.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

RonE said:


> This is very true. I've taken that chance many times and it is paid off.
> 
> But when you buy from a BYB, you're not adopting. You're enabling and encouraging backyard breeders. And you'll find little encouragement here.


I only just recently became aware of the BYB controversy. In fact, I thought finding an individual breeder was the right thing to do, having learned that pet store puppies come from puppy mills. As a result, my dogs have always come from back yard breeders, and all have been excellent dogs. I just wanted a family pet, and the so-called "reputable" kennels are prohibitively expensive -- not saying they aren't worth it, just that I need a Ford not a Cadillac. I certainly don't want to contribute to the decline of any breed -- luckily I'm many years away from needing another dog, no sense burning that bridge before I cross it.

The pup I mentioned before is not the product of BYB; he's an interim step in a working dog development program. Old-school genetic engineering. At least, that's my spin on it.

Actually, I was a backyard breeder myself once when our dachshund (Rudy Kabouti) had a litter with our best friends' dachshund (Beanie Weanie); we imposed a "rhyming name" restriction on the adopters, but I don't think they complied. I guess that's technically "back yard breeding" although to us it was just a lark. It was a very rewarding experience, although not financially so, and not one I'd recommend.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

FREE to well vetted homes.


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

I cannot believe someone would intentionally breed those two breed types together... both are incredibly dangerous when poorly bred. I know first hand because I have a Dane from a backyard breeder (before I knew what one was) and let me tell you... LESSON LEARNED. And what weird looking dogs they could turn out to be... If you took the grace and svelte out of the Dobie and the sheer size and head circ. from the Dane... eh.... I just hope they find good homes.


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

DustyCrockett said:


> I only just recently became aware of the BYB controversy. In fact, I thought finding an individual breeder was the right thing to do, having learned that pet store puppies come from puppy mills. As a result, my dogs have always come from back yard breeders, and all have been excellent dogs. I just wanted a family pet, and the so-called "reputable" kennels are prohibitively expensive -- not saying they aren't worth it, just that I need a Ford not a Cadillac. I certainly don't want to contribute to the decline of any breed -- luckily I'm many years away from needing another dog, no sense burning that bridge before I cross it.
> 
> The pup I mentioned before is not the product of BYB; he's an interim step in a working dog development program. Old-school genetic engineering. At least, that's my spin on it.
> 
> Actually, I was a backyard breeder myself once when our dachshund (Rudy Kabouti) had a litter with our best friends' dachshund (Beanie Weanie); we imposed a "rhyming name" restriction on the adopters, but I don't think they complied. I guess that's technically "back yard breeding" although to us it was just a lark. It was a very rewarding experience, although not financially so, and not one I'd recommend.


When I was a teenager my parents did the same thing... two beautiful Goldens from great lineages but technically we were a backyard breeder. Our Golden got a horrible infection that almost killed her... the puppies died and she needed a forced spay. It was very sad...


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

Our Dane is great - now... now that he's 8 years old and spends more time sleeping on the couch than anything else... can be let loose in our yard in the suburbs because he's too old to go anywhere (monitored of course)... but I spent YEARS dealing with his issues. He has a record with the DEC for biting a person (long story...a tresspassor who grabbed his collar), he has put holes in dogs heads with one bite (stupid owners wanting our dogs to meet before I could pull him away on a leash)... and has had several fights while on leash with dogs who were running loose... my whole yard is posted with no tresspassing, warning security dog signs... my neighbors even petitioned the Mayor to force me to get rid of my dog because his bark echoes off the houses... LOL.... I have had to reprimand drunk teenagers for running down the street screaming to pet him.... wtf.. I never let ANYONE in my house because I don't know how he will respond to them. I love him to pieces... he truly is a wonderful dog but he's got some screws loose upstairs... who would want to intentionally deal with that... or breed that. I've only met about 10 danes... and 8 of them had "issues".


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

Well I was kinda hoping members would of said they would be on the look out for me.

Are you a Doberman Breeder ?


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## The Feather Duster (Apr 14, 2010)

Lonny, I think you don't quite get it. And it might be a good idea to re-think your idea of a "dream dog."

I have my own "dream dog." I didn't choose her. She came to me unexpectedly. In fact, she kind of chose me. And she is the dreamiest dog imaginable.


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## mrslilly (Nov 13, 2011)

I have a litter of pure bred but unregistered boxer puppies, they were an accident but momma is going to be spayed for prevention, and puppies will be fixed as well, the people adopting are only covering spay/ neuter cost, if they don't no puppy for them. I am not making any money off the top, and that is a ridiculous question. Take time to place these pups, make sure they go to a good responsible home. Trust me i know accidents happen, but try to make it right.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

I know I want and need a big security dog. I recently lost my male doberman who was a specimen of the breed and lived to be 15 yrs old. Which I was lucky enough to find at my local humane soceity. I do love dobermans, I've had 4, all Throwbacks. In search for his replacement at shelters, rescues and breeders. Either they don't come close to him in appearance or remind me To Much Of Him.So I think I should get a different mixed breed this time although I do love dobermans.
I'm 50+ yrs old and my next dog will probably be my last Big Dog,if he lives a long life.Since we intend to travel after retirement. So this time I want to be a little picky. I just have always thought that whatever dog I or somebody wanted, was already out there and with the internet we could find it.I want what I want based on what I had. Maybe just maybe I could find another. In my search it is possible I may come across a mixed breed dog that meets my wants of being Big, Security Dog Looking with ears that stand, Short Haired, Docked Tail,Non Slobbering, Non Pit Bull. I have found and called about several dogs on petfinder but they were already gone and they said they had a lot of calls on each dog. So it seems the dog I want is always the dog somebody else wants. So am i really helping a homeless dog if someone else would have adopted him anyway ? The other alternative is buying from a breeder, which leads me back to a doberman.
But I'm not ready for another one, I'm afraid I might compare him to my last. My female dobie (spayed ) is ready for a friend.
I am not wrong for looking for what I call my dream dog. The breeder might be for contributing to the over population of dogs. But then so are most of the AKC breeders. I don't favor one over the other. As there is no shortage of any of the breeds.
You may say that I am doing more harm by buying a puppy from a backyard breeder, but if someone doesn't get them they will end up at a shelter. Then of course I could go from Zero to Hero LOL.
I love the Doberman Great Dane Mix so much that I think it should be a breed. If I did not realize the over population of dogs I would breed them myself. I won't only because of that and not that I see any thing wrong with mixed breeds, if that is what people want.

Someday I'll write about the Doberdane I had in the 80's and why I want one again. My boyfriend had one also from a different litter.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I have owned dogs for 41 years and still going. I have only ever paid for 3 breeds in my lifetime. My parents paid for two designer breeds,....they did not know better. All of my other dogs over the years have been rescues. I have been one very lucky person and have never had any major health issues in any of my dogs. While I may consider some of these rescues my "Dream Breeds".....I am only fooling myself.....because these mixes and my luck will sooner than later run out.....and all the health issues with these mixes will rear their ugly heads......and who will suffer the most?......me and my pocket book?.......or the dogs themselves? Just something to think about.

This does not even begin to touch all of these poor animals who will never find a home,.......are put down because of the health issues,.....or the ones who will suffer their whole lives through mentally and physically ......because some people who are selfish will keep a dog miserable for the rest of it's life because they had no clue what they got themselves into in the first place.

All of this is my own personal opinion............................please think before breeding and purchasing.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Lonny said:


> ... You may say that I am doing more harm by buying a puppy from a backyard breeder, but if someone doesn't get them they will end up at a shelter. Then of course I could go from Zero to Hero LOL. ...


Wrong conclusion, backyard breeders only exist because somebody buys their puppies (=money), if nobody would buy from them, they wouldn't breed. So by buying from a backyard breeder you are increasing the problem.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

WheatenDaneMom said:


> I cannot believe someone would intentionally breed those two breed types together... both are incredibly dangerous when poorly bred. I know first hand because I have a Dane from a backyard breeder (before I knew what one was) and let me tell you... LESSON LEARNED. And what weird looking dogs they could turn out to be... If you took the grace and svelte out of the Dobie and the sheer size and head circ. from the Dane... eh.... I just hope they find good homes.


 
Actually people have been up breeding Dobes with Great danes for years and they DO NOT call them Doberdanes, Look up Warlock or King Dobermans. I've met two and both were sweet but had HORRID thyroid problems. 

Lonny, as I told you you won't find your breeder here...


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

Really???? Jeez I just never thought it would be a good idea... LOL


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Lonny said:


> I don't think you should be so hard on people searching for their dream dogs.
> If the dog is out there or somebody is going to breed anyway, I want one.


And I'm not really supporting the child labor abuse just because I buy clothes from a store I know outsources to 3rd world countries famous for that, right? 

What members are trying to tell you is that by purchasing a puppy from a back yard breeder or puppy mill, you're putting money into the system that has millions of dogs being put down every year. Also, your adamant requirement that the tail has to be docked is a little bizarre. The only instance in which I (grudgingly) admitted the need for something like this is the practice of docking the ears of some livestock guardian dogs, like the Caucasian Ovcharka. This docking serves an actual purpose, which is to prevent a wolf, bear, or other predator from pulling on the ear and exposing the dog's throat. IMO, dogs should never have any body part cut off without a serious reason. Since I doubt your dog is going to be regularly exposed to hostile wolves, this shouldn't be the case with you.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wil.wish said:


> Also, your adamant requirement that the tail has to be docked is a little bizarre. The only instance in which I (grudgingly) admitted the need for something like this is the practice of docking the ears of some livestock guardian dogs, like the Caucasian Ovcharka. This docking serves an actual purpose, which is to prevent a wolf, bear, or other predator from pulling on the ear and exposing the dog's throat. IMO, dogs should never have any body part cut off without a serious reason. Since I doubt your dog is going to be regularly exposed to hostile wolves, this shouldn't be the case with you.


I find wanting a docked mixed breed a little odd. However in a world where real neglect and cruelty DO exist and DO harm animals, it seems a little beside the point to me to obsess over elective cosmetic surgery. Many of the people who dock/crop are above-average dog owners who care very much about their animals. make sure the procedures are done safely and mostly painlessly and simply like a certain appearance or look. They are not the people who need to be hounded (pun intended) by well-intended but overly exuberant people who spend their time picking the wrong targets instead of the people who actually do real harm. But of course the base intent behind it is to limit our choices with animals anyway.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

As consumer, we vote with our wallets.

Don't like puppy mills? Don't buy puppies from pet stores. In fact, don't buy ANYTHING form pet stores that sell puppies. Don't like backyard breeders? Don't buy from them. Don't like the way a particular big-box retailer that starts with W treats their employees, their suppliers and their competitors? Don't buy from them.

It's not real complicated.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

I explained why I want what I want.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Lonny said:


> *I* explained why *I* want what *I* want.


I think that is the underlying problem here, you are all about what you want, but not much about what would be good for the dog / what you could offer the dog.


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

Having a Dane I can assure you... his tail is not a weapon mass destruction - in fact he chose not to move it at all for almost 2 years (like he didn't seem to know how) and even at 8 years old ... at full excitement it just wags kind of slow and gracefully... it's never bloody.... but it is very thick and I could imagine docking it would be increase the risk of infection, re-infection, injury and necrosis.

To find a mix of the two breeds.... non white (which wouldn't have been a norm anyways... even a harlequin would never be all white, it's a fault), having the size the size and temperment of the dane but the protectiveness of the Dobi.... I think you're asking too much of a dog. And it's silly to assume that either breed is characteristic to the AKC standard... ie: my dog is NOT a gentle giant... he would give a dobi a serious run for his money. There are many aggressive Danes out there, and there are many submissive Dobis out there. 

If you're serious about tail docking you should simply find a breeder that has a history of pups that appeal to you and get on a waiting list ... that way you can ensure a tail dock... but you cannot assure temperment... you get what you get.

I am answeing your question but I do not agree with it at all. I didn't even crop my Dane's ears.... NOT NECESSARY. Visual appeal to me is selfish if the dog is not being bred, shown etc.... I think you should continue on your journey and stop trying to plea your case (attempting to get acceptance or understanding?) you simply won't find it here.

I like everyone to be happy and hope your "dream dog" makes you happy.

Now - be off.


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## lisaj1354 (Feb 23, 2008)

> The breeder might be for contributing to the over population of dogs. But then so are most of the AKC breeders.


Let me break this down for you in simple terms:

AKC/Show breeders breed rarely, and then for the betterment of the breed. Puppies that are not show quality are then sold as pets, with a spay/neuter contract - or already spayed/neutered before they go to a new home. And there a long waiting lists for these dogs. That means that people actually want these dogs and they will not go to a shelter. A show breeder will do all genetic testing for hips/eyes and any other issues that are specific to that breed. And the breeder will take back any of their dogs at any time for any reason.

Therefore, no over population.No poorly bred dogs.

A BYB will breed a bitch until she dies, with no concern about her health or the health of any potential puppies. Bitches are bred with any dog - even their own brothers/sisters/parents. This can and will cause additional health issues if there are existing health issues in the "line" they are using. Puppies that are sold are not sold with spay/neuter contracts, which means that the buyer will probably try and breed it, causing more unwanted puppies. Unsold puppies may be kept as breeding stock, end up at shelters. or tossed out of a car on the side of the road. A BYB sells a dog with no care as to the future of that dog.

A BYB breeds purely for profit. They (might) make money because they put little or no money into their dogs. 

A Show breeder rarely profits from a breeding because they do the tests that will ensure health and longevity. They do it for the love of the breed, the betterment of the breed health-wise.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

To the OP: it has been covered. You charge what you have put into them. Making money off these dogs would be wrong. Period. You were careless (I hope) and you should not profit from that.

To Lonny: You want to know why most people want a dog that looks the way you described? because they want a big scary dog. Why? Who knows. Maybe to show how big and bad they are. Unless you are showing/breeding, I think having a docked tail as a "deal breaker" is ridiculous. You want what you want. I get it. But as far as the "perfect" dog. They don't come that way. If you are thinking that by getting a DoberDane (and oh how it pains me to say that hybrid name) you will in some way recreate the dog you used to have, you are sorely mistaken and you will be disappointed. Dogs are individuals, just like people.

And as far as the perfect or dream dog--seriously, it has been said, but bears repeating--you never really know when you will find your "perfect" dog. When I got Gracie, I did not bond with her for months--nearly 8 months to be exact. It took a very long time. Now she is my perfectly imperfect heart dog. She was not my dream dog then, but when I look at her now, she is.

No matter how you justify, buying a mixed breed designer dog from a "breeder" does not make you a hero. It makes you one of the people who supports those horrid breeders.

No one begrudges you wanting a certain breed or type...we all have our tastes (I prefer prick eared dogs over floopy eared ones...but, that isn't a deal breaker if the dog has the personality/energy that I am looking for.)

As you have been told, you will not find a breeder here. You will also not find people that will jump on your "these cosmetic things are a make or break for me" bandwagon, either. We are people who love dogs--their imperfections, their quirks and (gasp) sometimes their undocked tails.


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## Mic Cheque (Nov 18, 2011)

Cute puppies.
I wonder why people still find the need to breed and buy from breeders.
There's animals sitting in shelters all over the place that need a home and they charge the bare minimum to go get one.
I have a friend who had a jack russel terrier that couldn't afford to take him to the vet when he got sick and he ended up dying.
After he got his tax refund at the end of the year he went and bought another one, he has since bought yet another one as well.
He's 29 years old with 5 kids and is the only one in the house with a job.
Why do people feel that going and buying from a breeder is the best option when getting a new family member?
Ever dog I've ever had has been a rescue, and have all been amazing with minimal health issues.
That is until we just got this pure bred german shepherd..( also a rescue)
It would seem to me that the pure breds are not only more expensive and encourage breeders, but also are much more prone to health issues.
Go spend the money to get your dog spayed and stop trying to turn a profit off your family
If you had a daughter would you pimp her out?
It's basically the same thing.
There's no "accidents" if they are spayed or nutered so what's wrong with people.
If you go to a lot of foreign counties ( like Cuba) they have wild dogs roaming the streets starving to death.
The same is happening here only you don't see them because they are sitting in pounds here
Out of sight out of mind I guess.
Maybe that's where you should be.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

What I have to offer is some fenced acreage, a stay at home mom with some training experience and enough stability to pay for vet bills and an empty custom made babybed next to mine and we keep our pets for life. In fact my animals are in my Will , a dog & a horse rescue would recieive a large sum of money if both my husband & I die and they have to be rehomed. 

I feel I earned the Right to look for my Dream Dog Before I settle for some other dog. 
It's out there or will be, I just have to find it.Hopefully in the next 6 months.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Mic Cheque said:


> Cute puppies.
> I wonder why people still find the need to breed and buy from breeders.


Because they want a specific breed of dog from a line that has been tested extensively for genetic problems. They want a dog that has a blueprint for a certain look and temperament. No breed of dog always yields puppies that all have the same attributes, but there is a very strong likeliness that the breed's characteristics will be present in your dog. If I buy a Border Collie, for instance, I can be nearly certain that he/she will be smart, loyal, loving, and VERY energetic.



Mic Cheque said:


> There's animals sitting in shelters all over the place that need a home and they charge the bare minimum to go get one.


True, and I have a lot of respect for people that bring rescue dogs into their home. Not everyone can or should.



Mic Cheque said:


> I have a friend who had a jack russel terrier that couldn't afford to take him to the vet when he got sick and he ended up dying.
> After he got his tax refund at the end of the year he went and bought another one, he has since bought yet another one as well.
> He's 29 years old with 5 kids and is the only one in the house with a job.


That's awful. People should plan ahead before making the decision to bring a dog home. Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with getting a dog from a breeder as opposed to a shelter - someone bringing a dog home from a shelter might also not have money ready for vet bills.



Mic Cheque said:


> Why do people feel that going and buying from a breeder is the best option when getting a new family member?
> Ever dog I've ever had has been a rescue, and have all been amazing with minimal health issues.


Because of the answer previously posted. It's good that you haven't had problems with rescue dogs. This is not always or even usually the case. Rescue dogs are often traumatized from being neglected and/or abandoned, and sometimes have suffered abuse. This can be difficult for many people to deal with. Also, if you already have a dog at home, they are much less likely to welcome a new adult dog than a new puppy. Sometimes this works out, but not always.



Mic Cheque said:


> That is until we just got this pure bred german shepherd..( also a rescue)
> It would seem to me that the pure breds are not only more expensive and encourage breeders, but also are much more prone to health issues.


I applaud your commitment to rescuing dogs. Still, I see here the trap many people fall into when they are so set on an opinion that they warp facts to fit their theories. Like Sherlock Holmes said, this is never a good thing. Pure breed dogs are not more prone to health issues. Certain types of pure breeds have been over-bred and are now seeing genetic problems crop up, but this is not a blanket statement you can apply to all breeds. Many mixed breeds have also been over-bred by back yard breeders and puppy mills, and suffer many health and emotional issues, but I'm not about to say that mixed dogs are more prone to health issues. Any good and ethical breeder tests extensively for genetic and temperament, and breeds litters to bring out the best and weed out problems.



Mic Cheque said:


> Go spend the money to get your dog spayed and stop trying to turn a profit off your family
> If you had a daughter would you pimp her out?
> It's basically the same thing.
> There's no "accidents" if they are spayed or nutered so what's wrong with people.


I agree that everyone who isn't breeding should have their dogs fixed. Breeders are not 'trying to turn a profit off family'. Believe me, I know some breeders, and after all the care they provide, including vet checkups, tests, supplies, etc., they aren't making much money at all on their dogs. Real breeders are never in it for the money. And no, breeding dogs isn't equivalent to pimping a daughter out. Dogs instinctively mate when it's time, which is why fixing them is so important if they are not to be bred. I don't need to fix my daughter, because she isn't going to go into heat and instinctively jump any nearby male's bones. Equating dogs mating to human sex isn't accurate. 



Mic Cheque said:


> If you go to a lot of foreign counties ( like Cuba) they have wild dogs roaming the streets starving to death.
> The same is happening here only you don't see them because they are sitting in pounds here
> Out of sight out of mind I guess.
> Maybe that's where you should be.


This last part was not only seriously judgmental, but frankly very offensive. I agree that puppy mills and back yard breeders are generally in the same class as pond scum, but you seem to be saying that everyone that breeds dogs is the same. Also, the 'same thing' could not be happening here, because in shelters the dogs aren't roaming the streets, starving to death. 

When I have enough space in my house for another dog, I would love to go to a shelter and rescue one. I agree that it's terrible that millions of dogs are being killed every year, and more people should look into rescuing as opposed to opening the morning paper to find a back yard breeder they can just stop by and pick up a puppy from. I do not agree that people buying a puppy from an ethical breeder should be locked in a dog shelter, as you alluded to in the last quote. If someone wants to pick a specific dog breed from a known lineage, to have the best chance of getting the type of dog they can handle that is free of genetic issues, this does not place them in the "Oh, I don't care if dogs are dying" category. 

Like I said, it's great that you've rescued dogs. It's even better that you have had few issues. Take a few steps back and read posts from others who have rescued dogs, however. Sometimes everything turns out roses. Sometimes the dog has a load of health and behavioral issues that most people can't handle. The chances of getting an emotionally stable dog from a shelter isn't all that good. They can be worked with and shown the love they always should have had, but expecting dogs from a shelter to be as well-adjusted as a puppy you bring home from an ethical breeder isn't logical. Expecting to accurately predict what their temperament and energy level will be isn't logical, either, and this is very important before bringing a puppy/dog home. A lot of dogs wind up in shelters because their owners didn't take the time to find out that their new family friend has to be walked for 2 hours a day, minimum. I applaud your ideals, but disagree wholeheartedly with your opinions.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Lonny said:


> What I have to offer is some fenced acreage, a stay at home mom with some training experience and enough stability to pay for vet bills and an empty custom made babybed next to mine and we keep our pets for life. In fact my animals are in my Will , a dog & a horse rescue would recieive a large sum of money if both my husband & I die and they have to be rehomed.
> 
> I feel I earned the Right to look for my Dream Dog Before I settle for some other dog.
> It's out there or will be, I just have to find it.Hopefully in the next 6 months.


I don't think anyone said you didn't have anything to offer. I think we all said that thinking you can find your "dream dog" is a little far fetched in reality. Most of us ended up with our "dream" dogs through hard work. Not through a complicated list of physical traits that were make or break (again, if you show or responsibly breed that is different).


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## LoveCWCs (Oct 21, 2011)

I really hate it when rescue people bash breeders. It's a pet peeve of mine and something I'll stand up for. 

My mentor supports rescue extensively to say the least. 

On top of that, rescue organizations are notoriously hard to get dogs from. They have sometimes outlandish requirements. I was turned down from a greyhound rescue before I got my current dog as a puppy. Their loss!! 

I won't go into all the reasons why I chose against a rescue dog (because I did consider it), but suffice it to say they were very valid. A life long mentor, health guarentee, and ability to show in the venues which I've chosen to show were all factors. 

My dog has not let me down and is pretty much exactly what I knew I'd be getting and to me that is priceless. She's a fantastic dog and I do not regret my decision to buy from a BREEDER.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

theyogachick said:


> I don't think anyone said you didn't have anything to offer. I think we all said that thinking you can find your "dream dog" is a little far fetched in reality. Most of us ended up with our "dream" dogs through hard work. Not through a complicated list of physical traits that were make or break (again, if you show or responsibly breed that is different).


Yeah scroll up Sybille did. LOL It's not a Complicated List of physical traits, it's just a mix of two breeds. And if not for the Internet it might be a little far fetched, But with it and GPS, I Might find one. : ) LOL


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Lonny said:


> Yeah scroll up Sybille did. LOL It's not a Complicated List of physical traits, it's just a mix of two breeds. And if not for the Internet it might be a little far fetched, But with it and GPS, I Might find one. : ) LOL


I wrote "I think that is the underlying problem here, *you are all about what you want, but not much about what would be good for the dog / what you could offer the dog.*"

I didn't said you have nothing to offer, I said that you don't write much about what you can offer a dog - big difference!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

LoveCWCs said:


> I really hate it when rescue people bash breeders. It's a pet peeve of mine and something I'll stand up for.
> 
> My mentor supports rescue extensively to say the least.
> 
> ...


We are not bashing breeders. I am all for responsible breeders who contribute and better the breed. Breeders who do things the right way are amazing. I am considering a Shiba from a breeder as my next dog...but I also want to make sure that they are a good breeder. Not a backyard breeder who is in it for money.

In terms of rescues, yes, some are hard to get dogs from. They have strict requirements. I know because I work with one. We need to make sure that the dog we rescued from a bad situation doesn't go to another bad one.

I just want to make that clear...I know lots of people who have purebred dogs from responsible, ethical breeders. I am all for it.

Lonny--You mentioned the ears, the tail, the fur, the "security dog" look, the no slobbering, non pit bull type dog. You also stated earlier that a non docked tail was a deal breaker. That is why I mentioned you had a long list of requirements for a dog.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

I think the comments from 'Mic Cheque' were what LoveCWCs was talking about. Pretty serious breeder-bashing there.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

wil.wish said:


> I think the comments from 'Mic Cheque' were what LoveCWCs was talking about. Pretty serious breeder-bashing there.


Gotcha. That is not the general feeling of most on this forum. I know that most of us will encourage responsible breeding. It is the "greeders" that we worry about.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I have shelter dogs and work for a shelter, and I still like good breeders.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Mic Cheque said:


> Cute puppies.
> I wonder why people still find the need to breed and buy from breeders.
> There's animals sitting in shelters all over the place that need a home and they charge the bare minimum to go get one.
> I have a friend who had a jack russel terrier that couldn't afford to take him to the vet when he got sick and he ended up dying.
> ...


If you buy from a responsible breeder, you limit the chance of the health issues, etc. It doesn't eliminate them entirely, but it limits them. And if a breeder is breeding dogs that he knows are not sound health wise, he is not a responsible breeder. That is the bottom line.

I may go to a breeder for my next dog. I may stick to rescue. I don't know. I do know that if I use a breeder I will ask a million questions, want to see the parents, know the health tests done, etc.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

theyyogachick, it's not really a long list of requirements, I actually described a Doberman or a Dobie Dane. Thats why when I search petfinder I search dobermans and boxers looking for a mix with a docked tail. The ones that are docked & cropped get adopted right away it seems.

It was just destiny I was able to adopt my big boy dobie from the humane society. He was not even up for adoption yet but they let me put a hold on him. But I was the 3rd hold. The other 2 people passed him up because he had heartworms.Timing is everything.Just yesterday I found a litter of dobie danes out of state. I called, but they had tails, so I asked if they were going to have anymore puppies.
She said No that she was a rescue. But you see, IF someone seen my request in time to dock the tail and let me reserve one. Theres my Dream Dog, I would take a chance and get 1 or 2.

You can't tell me there is not a doberman pregnant to a great dane Today somewhere on the East Coast......and probably in Texas : )
because Texas has a lot of great danes & dobermans..........& everythings Big in Texas. LOL

I have some wanted ads placed and hope someone googles doberdane/dobie dane/ etc and sees my request. It's possible.
I pretty much attract everything I want............just not always when I want it. ; )


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Lonny, there may be a litter of the mix you want somewhere, but you won't find that litter here. Make sure if you find it that the docking is done by three days old, otherwise it's an amputation, make sure the crop is done by someone who k owe what they're doing otherwise it can turn out horrid and make sure you post the crop properly or it can ruin the work of the vet that cropped the ears. There's a lot that can go wrong with an ear crop and immpecable care must be taken of the ears during the posting phase.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Mic Cheque said:


> Why do people feel that going and buying from a breeder is the best option when getting a new family member?


It depends on what a person wants. I WILL purchase a titled working German Shepherd one day. I will probably drop 2-5k on that dog that is not only well bred but well tested. Will it garuntee that the dog is 100% healthy? No, but it will garuntee that is likely to be more healthy then random dog bred on the streets, by a BYB, or dumped at the shelter.


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

You really need to get on a waiting list


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

cshellenberger, Actually I did find a litter Here by googleing doberman great dane puppies. Just not in time.
I really don't expect to find another litter Here, but maybe Someone will find Me or maybe a member here will think of me if they see my dream dog or know of a litter.
I have a vet picked out to do the ears already, she has done thousands of show quality puppies. If you google ear crop vets you can find one in your state. I realize the ears are not guaranteed to stand. I am a stay at home wife so I have time to watch the puppy 24/7.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah, posting is the tricky part if you have a vet that does a good job on ears. The ears MUST be posted tightly or they will develop pockets and not stand correctly. I got my Dobe girl at 6 months old, the breeder had taken her back from the family that purchased her because the family wasn't taking proper care of her. She came here with her posts infected and a pocket in her right ear that we weren't able to get corrected due to the infection. Now her right ear flips over her head.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

HELP ! I found my Dream Dog but he's in Kansas. Does anyone know of the best transport service ? The problem is the Main Airports are 3 hours away from the people and they can not drive that far. Any ideas of a Pick up Service that would take it to the Airport ?
Thanks


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

Got'em : ) Drove 1100 miles each way and they were FREE : )


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I am glad they could find the pups homes and you got what you were looking for. How were the parents health checks and hips rated? Just curious if they were an intentional cross or a mistake breeding?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Best of Luck! Now we need pix!



juliemule said:


> I am glad they could find the pups homes and you got what you were looking for. How were the parents health checks and hips rated? Just curious if they were an intentional cross or a mistake breeding?


Pretty sure if they were free the hips and such werent tested. 

Lonny, be sure to get them vetted ASAP and their shots started so they cAn be thoroughly socialized and start puppy k


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

The mom a 5 year old black doberman was/is in good health, she had a blood test when they knew she was pregnant.
This was her first litter. The people intended to breed her to a registed doberman but never did, just when they decided to get her fixed, the neighbor got a new great dane that could jump the fence. They said the great dane looked mighty heathly and looked like he had strong hips and full bodied. He had cropped ears,I think that is a good sign he was probably tested and tested OK or they would of neutered him. We can only hope,,,,,,,as with any rescue.

My puppies had their Ears & Tails cropped & docked yesterday at the vet. They are doing real well. The first 3 hours after bringing them home was pretty intense. We held them and wondered if we would do this again, But they soon wanted to play and seem to be a little bothered but not in pain.

I will spend much time looking for training tips, working with them and probably Puppy School.
We are dedicated to having these dogs turn out good to where we can handle walking both of them by ourselves at the very least.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Best of Luck! Now we need pix!
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure if they were free the hips and such werent tested.


 Yes probably right since it was a mistake breeding. Good luck with your pups, they are so much fun!


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Lonny said:


> The mom a 5 year old black doberman was/is in good health, she had a blood test when they knew she was pregnant.
> This was her first litter. The people intended to breed her to a registed doberman but never did, just when they decided to get her fixed, the neighbor got a new great dane that could jump the fence. They said the great dane looked mighty heathly and looked like he had strong hips and full bodied. He had cropped ears,I think that is a good sign he was probably tested and tested OK or they would of neutered him. We can only hope,,,,,,,as with any rescue.
> 
> My puppies had their Ears & Tails cropped & docked yesterday at the vet. They are doing real well. The first 3 hours after bringing them home was pretty intense. We held them and wondered if we would do this again, But they soon wanted to play and seem to be a little bothered but not in pain.
> ...


You had their tails AMPUTATED? Not Docked, since they need to be docked within a few days of birth? Nice.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Looking like he has good hips doesn't mean anything. I'm a little lost, how old are these puppies? I hope they're just days old because that's when you dock tails. If they're older, then you really did amputate them. Sweet Jesus, the pups must be in pain.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lonny said:


> . He had cropped ears,I think that is a good sign he was probably tested and tested OK or they would of neutered him. We can only hope,,,,,,,as with any rescue.
> 
> My puppies had their Ears & Tails cropped & docked yesterday at the vet. They are doing real well. The first 3 hours after bringing them home was pretty intense. We held them and wondered if we would do this again, But they soon wanted to play and seem to be a little bothered but not in pain.


You're kidding that since his ears were cropped, he was probably health tested, right? What does one have to do with the other. Your puppies are not rescues. As someone who has had a docked breed for over 30 years, I cannot imagine docking the tails of puppies old enough to go to a new home. With newborns three days or under, the nervous system is not well developed and docking is relatively painless. If I couldn't get it done by them, the dog would keep its tail. When you dock an older puppy, you are amputating the spinal column. I just can't imagine causing that much pain just for cosmetic considerations.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Just realizing,,, they docked the tails and cropped ears of rescue pups? I must have missed something....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Wow, I don't want to know what kind of vet would do a tail amputation on an older pup for cosmetic reasons. Professionals have a higher standard to live up to, IMO. . .an owner can ask for whatever they want but the vet makes the final decision. I hope they heal well and don't have any lasting pain. Did the vet send you home with pain meds? He definitely should have. Lots of them.


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## LoveCWCs (Oct 21, 2011)

I would consider that animal cruelty.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

I feel sick to my stomach - those poor pups


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

How many pups did you take? You said puppies as in more than one. Multiple from the same litter? I hope there isn't two females, that could turn really ugly really fast as they grow up.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

[Quote removed by moderator]

This. Blech.


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## LoveCWCs (Oct 21, 2011)

Well, that poster isn't very knowledgable about dogs, obviously. He thought that because the male dog's ears were cropped, that the dog must have been health tested. I'm not sure how the math works on that one. Must be new math. 

I am betting he probably didn't realize that both dobies and GD's are known for dog aggression.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Add to that littermates can be pure HELL to raise together! It won't be long before the "adopter" is on here having behavioral issues, health problems, and 'help' questions that seriously could have been avoided. Oh well at least the dogs have a home, for now.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

This makes me sad.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

sassafras said:


> This makes me sad.


+1, I better don't write more, I would get banned for sure. Poor puppies!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I wonder if the female Dobie at home is enjoying the two new friends? I hope for the pups sakes that they are males at the least due to the same sex aggression issues in the breed.

I do however wish the puppies well. They did not ask to be born.

But is amputating their tails not the equivalent of a human having a broken back? I hope they have lots of pain meds.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Cropping is normally done at 6-8 weeks. Docking however is NEVER done after 5 days old, after that it's considered an amputation and is VERY prone to infection and other complications including nerve damage. I would hope you didn't put pups through such unneeded pain.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

KodiBarracuda said:


> How many pups did you take? You said puppies as in more than one. Multiple from the same litter? I hope there isn't two females, that could turn really ugly really fast as they grow up.


I hope it isn't two males as male-male aggression runs in the doberman breed.

I was really hoping this thread would be locked by now because the whole thing has sickened me from the start but I absolutely can't stop reading it. Ughhh


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## CandJHarris (Apr 29, 2010)

This thread is so sad on so many levels. Obviously no thought beyond "wouldn't it be cool to have a Dane/Dobie mix?" went into this and I really worry that the situation isn't going to end well.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I know why I'm against this kind of thing. But I'm surprised to see other people objecting to it. After all, it's an owner's right to do this kind of thing, isn't it? And as long as a vet does it, it's not cruel, right? Can somebody explain to me why, medically speaking, a routine tail amputation is worse than, say, a routine cat de-claw? Which a lot of people here defend as an owner's right, even if done for no other reason than because the owner likes it that way. I am confused at the uproar.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I don't believe its any worse than a declaw. I had worked for a vet clinic for 10 years, declawing and ear cropping were very painful. Tail cropping was quick, but the pups cry like crazy, were not given any pain relief or local anesthesia. I would not choose to do any just for looks.
Now, I will have dewclaws removed at 2 days, if they are the hangy types.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

LoveCWCs said:


> Well, that poster isn't very knowledgable about dogs, obviously. He thought that because the male dog's ears were cropped, that the dog must have been health tested. I'm not sure how the math works on that one. Must be new math.
> 
> I am betting he probably didn't realize that both dobies and GD's are known for dog aggression.


I believe she's an in-home wife unless I have my threads mixed.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I know why I'm against this kind of thing. But I'm surprised to see other people objecting to it. After all, it's an owner's right to do this kind of thing, isn't it? And as long as a vet does it, it's not cruel, right? Can somebody explain to me why, medically speaking, a routine tail amputation is worse than, say, a routine cat de-claw? Which a lot of people here defend as an owner's right, even if done for no other reason than because the owner likes it that way. I am confused at the uproar.


Interesting that you would compare it to a routine de-claw instead of a routine spay. Both are elective surgeries which cause discomfort but are chosen to avoid a certain situation. (accidental breeding, shredding the sofa). I would not declaw a cat either, though I do recognize that there are some cases where the cat's distructiveness might cost it an otherwise life-long home. Same thing with a de-bark. Not things I like. Not things I can see myself doing. But it's not me living with the animal. Except if the animal is in a situation where tail damage is likely to occur (heavy hunting through brush with a fragile tail, happy tail, etc.) there's really no reason to cause the discomfort of amputating a tail on a neurologically mature dog. The world is not nearly as black and white a place as it seems to be in your part of it
I DO want my puppies docked, and because I want to keep that right, I want to make sure it is done correctly and humanely.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

juliemule said:


> I don't believe its any worse than a declaw. I had worked for a vet clinic for 10 years, declawing and ear cropping were very painful. Tail cropping was quick, but the pups cry like crazy, were not given any pain relief or local anesthesia. I would not choose to do any just for looks.
> Now, I will have dewclaws removed at 2 days, if they are the hangy types.


Huh. Obviously you don't work at my vet clinic, where the puppies get lidocane and a stitch. And also don't "cry like crazy" when docked (it's not called cropping)


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Huh. Obviously you don't work at my vet clinic, where the puppies get lidocane and a stitch. And also don't "cry like crazy" when docked (it's not called cropping)


 Sorry, I was typing too fast. Docking was done with no lidocaine. The pups do scream when they are cut, and stitched with no local anesthesia. 
Animlas there were euthanised with no sedatives, and no routine surgeries were ever sent home with pain meds.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh for the love of god, willowy.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Oh for the love of god, willowy.


So explain it to me medically. Why is it "sad" that this happened to a dog? What's the difference?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

No, I'm not going to explain it medically. I'm not going to explain something that should be obvious.

Why you should care what makes ME sad is beyond me anyway.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

juliemule said:


> Sorry, I was typing too fast. Docking was done with no lidocaine. The pups do scream when they are cut, and stitched with no local anesthesia.
> Animlas there were euthanised with no sedatives, and no routine surgeries were ever sent home with pain meds.


That sounds like more of an issue with the practice than the procedure. I've had puppies give a surprised "yip!" but not cry like crazy or scream. If memory serves (it's been quite a few years) the yip came with the lidocane, not the dock. And they seemed more concerned about being removed from littermates and placed on a table than anything else. When they were back with the other pups, they took a nap


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

I've never seen lidocaine administered for a dock, so major props to your vet for realizing that it's definitely beneficial! I do like my docked breeds docked so it makes me happy there are vets who are willing to minimize any discomfort. It's like some (human) hospitals giving buffered lidocaine for IV starts: an IV start isn't horribly painful to begin with, but why have it painful at all if you can remove that pain? Lido is cheap enough and works quick enough that it's not a huge time inconvenience either.

Docking without lidocaine does leave screaming puppies. It's not fun, but it's over quickly.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

We had 7 vets, all practiced this way. it has been several years ago, but they were cut with surgical scissors, skin pulled and stitched witout deadening. The first time I saw this I felt horrible. It is not something I would choose to do just for looks.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> I know why I'm against this kind of thing. But I'm surprised to see other people objecting to it. After all, it's an owner's right to do this kind of thing, isn't it? And as long as a vet does it, it's not cruel, right? Can somebody explain to me why, medically speaking, a routine tail amputation is worse than, say, a routine cat de-claw? Which a lot of people here defend as an owner's right, even if done for no other reason than because the owner likes it that way. I am confused at the uproar.


A docking, done shortly after birth is far less traumatic as the nerves are not fully formed in that area of the spine. They become formed and functional a few days after. It's designed to prevent a more traumatic injury from occurring to a thin, easily broken tail. Amputation is harsh because of the increased nerve function and blood flow to the tail in an animal over two weeks and should only be done if there is repeated trauma to the tail. 

Ear leather on. Oth dobermans and GD are. Wry thin and easily torn, the posting process actually builds these up and the crop is designed to minimize the chances of a dog of these breeds to have the leathers torn in combat with a human or animal. It also makes the dog appear more alert and intimidating.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> No, I'm not going to explain it medically. I'm not going to explain something that should be obvious.


Well, no, it's not obvious to me how amputating a dog's tail (one amputation) is worse than amputating a cat's distal phalanges (10 or 18 amputations) or I wouldn't have asked.

It all makes me sad .


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> A docking, done shortly after birth is far less traumatic as the nerves are not fully formed in that area of the spine. They become formed and functional a few days after. It's designed to prevent a more traumatic injury from occurring to a thin, easily broken tail. Amputation is harsh because of the increased nerve function and blood flow to the tail in an animal over two weeks and should only be done if there is repeated trauma to the tail.
> 
> Ear leather on. Oth dobermans and GD are. Wry thin and easily torn, the posting process actually builds these up and the crop is designed to minimize the chances of a dog of these breeds to have the leathers torn in combat with a human or animal. It also makes the dog appear more alert and intimidating.


I didn't ask why a tail amputation on an older pup is worse than a neonatal docking. That's obvious. I asked why it's worse than a cat de-claw, and why dog people are frequently all "yay, de-claw!" when the subject comes up. But thanks anyway.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I asked why it's worse than a cat de-claw, and why dog people are frequently all "yay, de-claw!" when the subject comes up. But thanks anyway.


Interesting. I've never seen that here.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I didn't ask why a tail amputation on an older pup is worse than a neonatal docking. That's obvious. I asked why it's worse than a cat de-claw, and why dog people are frequently all "yay, de-claw!" when the subject comes up. But thanks anyway.


I think the declaw is more unpleasant than a tail amputation. At least the dog doesn't walk on it's tail.. I can't imagine walking on my feet immediately after having my toes chopped off. OUCH!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I can see it being done for medical reason, if you have one. I saw an ear crop that had gone bad, the ears had become infected, the owners ended up getting rid of the dog because they wanted the dogs ears to stand. Whatever.

As far as declawing. Cats have claws. If you don't like that, don't get one. One of our vets was an exotic specialist and had an owner of a coatamundi (sp?) come in demanding a declaw. It is scratching up the house! We didn't do it, and I politely explained maybe she should have researched the animal before she got it. Its what they do.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Lindbert said:


> I think the declaw is more unpleasant than a tail amputation. At least the dog doesn't walk on it's tail.. I can't imagine walking on my feet immediately after having my toes chopped off. OUCH!


Yeah, that's my thought as well.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> I think the declaw is more unpleasant than a tail amputation. At least the dog doesn't walk on it's tail.. I can't imagine walking on my feet immediately after having my toes chopped off. OUCH!


We could ask my dog Ray about that . A month after having his toe amputated, still trying to convince him to put weight on it. Now watch, it's going to be said that I'm in favor of declawing dogs, too.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Interesting. I've never seen that here.


Yeah? Check out the last few pages of "The Cat Plague" in Off-Topic. Lots of defending of routine de-claws there.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> We could ask my dog Ray about that . A month after having his toe amputated, still trying to convince him to put weight on it. Now watch, it's going to be said that I'm in favor of declawing dogs, too.


Poor Ray. Charlotte is missing a toe on her left hind leg and absolutely HATES when I handle it to clip the nails on that foot. I didn't realize it and nobody said anything about it until I went to clip her nails and realized I was a toe short!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> I didn't ask why a tail amputation on an older pup is worse than a neonatal docking. That's obvious. I asked why it's worse than a cat de-claw, and why dog people are frequently all "yay, de-claw!" when the subject comes up. But thanks anyway.


 I think MOST on this site disagree with declawing unless it's the only way to keep the animal (as in the cat is extreamly destructive no matter what else is done about it). I personally used rubber caps (soft bpaws) on my cats claws to prevent them shredding my furniture.

Now lets get back on the subject at hand.


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

lisaj1354 said:


> From most people who care about dogs? Not a penny.


This. If your financial situation requires, then the bare minimum to cover the cost from the pregnancy/delivery/vet care. But it was your intention I guess to start this to begin with, so you chose to finance it. I sincerely hope you didn't do this for money.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

Well I'm not surprised at the negitive posts.
Before I got the puppies I called the best ear crop vet in the state,to get an estimate for the ear crops. I asked if they ever dock the tails after 3 days old and explained why it was important to me. She interupted and said " Yes we can do that for $85 ". Being she does show dogs from all over the South East, I figured as long as they are under it makes it OK. I then called 4 other closer vets for estimates on cropping & docking, and only one suggested we wait until they are 4-5 months old. I thought that was to long to wait.
They are bouncing around and don't seem to be in pain but bothered by the bandages on their ears.
Yes they have pain medication drops we are to give for 5 days. 
It might hurt but I think of how much hitting their tails on everything would of hurt. Now they will be able to be Happy with out the pain of having a tail.
My puppies are Not Exactly rescues, but I got them before they became rescues. Big Black dogs aren't the first to get adopted. 
Turns out, the owner of this litter had to have emergency back surgery 1 month ago and had to find homes or else.
The puppies,( both males) think I'm a Hero not a Zero.
Some of you may think it's cruel but I think it's selfish Not to crop & dock certain breeds. Look on petfinder and you'll see that they get adopted. There are plenty of dobies & danes with natural ears. We keep our animals for life, but should something happen to us and they go to a private rescue, I'm not worried about them not getting Picked. They will be magnificent : ) : )


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Lonny said:


> It might hurt but I think of how much hitting their tails on everything would of hurt. Now they will be able to be Happy with out the pain of having a tail.


My Dane has has his full tail and he rarely whacks it on anything (besides us)... it has never been a problem. If you want to dock/amputate a tail - by all means, do it - but please don't justify it by thinking you are doing the DOG a favour.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> My Dane has has his full tail and he rarely whacks it on anything (besides us)... it has never been a problem. If you want to dock/amputate a tail - by all means, do it - but please don't justify it by thinking you are doing the DOG a favour.


I wanted the tails docked for them & Me. My other doberdane knocked his tail so many times, between him knocking it open and licking at it, it took forever to heal if it ever did. He squashed so much blood it looked like someone got shot in the house.The first time in the car so bad blood covered the inside, even the windows. He jumped in knocked his tail on the door jam and before he would get out of the car ( he thought we were going to the beach ) there was not a 6 inch square spot that was not covered in blood. Sometimes he had to stay outside on the porch, because of that . He thought that was cruel and so do I.


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

Well, our mutt has a docked tail and I couldn't understand why. The vet told me that likely the owners couldn't adopt the pups out and did it to make them more "attractive". That is pretty sick though IMO. I understand cutting a very long tail back - my friends' aunt did that for one of her great danes, because he would injure it by banging it at everything, but I would much prefer to see the ears and tails of all those breeds being bred into something healthy over time. 

Lonny, I can see your point, but it's perpetuating something unnecessary (in most cases) and painful because of the stupid attitude of people.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Lonney, I don't mind cropping and docking, in fact I too prefer it.

HOWEVER what you did was NOT docking (which is done at a few days old) it was a TAIL AMPUTATION and there is a huge difference. Amputations should only be done of there is NO WAY to save the tail, they should NEVER be done as close as a dock because it can lead to incontinence (the nerves to the pelvic girdle form there when the tail is left on).


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I also prefer docked tails and cropped ears on certain breeds; I have had Dobermans with crops and docks; but my point was the concern for the puppies in the long run due to the health issues that cshellenberger has stated...and the pain they had to go through at their age.

I have two Schnauzer/Poodles who were docked by the original BYB. It was not necessary IMO. ( Neither was the BYB themselves; that is another story in itself ) If I had control over it ... the two little dogs would still have tails. BUT ... this is the big but ... they were docked at a few days old.

My other concern is for the aggression issues. What happens to them if they turn aggressive towards each other? Are you going to crate and rotate for the rest of their lives if it cannot be fixed ... if it should happen. That IMO is not fair to the dogs either.

Like I said I wish the pups nothing but the best. I just had to be certain I am clear as to what I am trying to convey. I do not post on the forum unless I have genuine concerns. I am not one who likes to argue meaningless debates.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Abbylynn said:


> My other concern is for the aggression issues. What happens to them if they turn aggressive towards each other? Are you going to crate and rotate for the rest of their lives if it cannot be fixed ... if it should happen. That IMO is not fair to the dogs either.


Exactly! Dobermans are KNOWN for same sex aggression in BOTH genders. I have a female Dobe and for that reason I'll be getting a male mastiff to train for my husbands Service dog, there is NO WAY in hell I'd bring another female dog in the house and take needless chances.

Then you have littermates, with litermates you have this nasty thing called Littermate Syndrome which can be made worse with littermates of the same gender in a breed that is known for same gender aggression.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Everything about this post makes me sick.



Lonny said:


> Well I'm not surprised at the negitive posts.
> Before I got the puppies I called the best ear crop vet in the state,to get an estimate for the ear crops. I asked if they ever dock the tails after 3 days old and explained why it was important to me. She interupted and said " Yes we can do that for $85 ". Being she does show dogs from all over the South East, I figured as long as they are under it makes it OK. I then called 4 other closer vets for estimates on cropping & docking, and only one suggested we wait until they are 4-5 months old. I thought that was to long to wait.


Well, as long as you explained why it was important...and the vet interrupted. Sounds like the vet was looking to make a quick buck. And to be clear--no one was overly upset about the cropping. It's the docking that is an issue here. Anythinbg after a few days is NOT docking. It is amputating. (and let's not go back to teh cat claws thing...that is not my concern right now.)

Did you know that the American Veterinary Medicine Council has this stance of docking in terms of cosmetic reasons (which is why you docked):

_The essential question is not "How harmful is the procedure?", but rather "Is there sufficient justification for performing it?" Performing a surgical procedure for cosmetic purposes (i.e., for the sake of appearance) implies the procedure is not medically indicated. Because dogs have not been shown to derive self-esteem or pride in appearance from having their tails docked (common reasons for performing cosmetic procedures on people), there is no obvious benefit to our patients in performing this procedure. The only benefit that appears to be derived from cosmetic tail docking of dogs is the owner's impression of a pleasing appearance. In the opinion of the AVMA, this is insufficient justification for performing a surgical procedure._

I guess you provided good reasoning for a vet to dock a tail at 8-9 weeks. 

Top be clear: the choice to dock/crop really is a owner's business...if it is done at the RIGHT time. I prefer the natural look, but others prefer the other way. When it is done right and with the right guidelines, I see no harm in it, but the fact these pups were docked so late makes me so very, very sad.



Lonny said:


> They are bouncing around and don't seem to be in pain but bothered by the bandages on their ears.
> Yes they have pain medication drops we are to give for 5 days.
> It might hurt but I think of how much hitting their tails on everything would of hurt. Now they will be able to be Happy with out the pain of having a tail.


So why did you do it? For them or for you? Because you said it was important to you, but now you say you did it for them. You made it VERY clear early in this thread that you would not take a dog that was not docked, so, let's call it like it is--this is a cosmetic thing. You can tell yourself all you want you did it for them, but, stop it. Seriously. To spout all this "think about how painful hitting their tail" stuff is ridiculous. If that is the case, then we should ALL dock our dogs tails. I mean, it would be for their own good.



Lonny said:


> My puppies are Not Exactly rescues, but I got them before they became rescues. Big Black dogs aren't the first to get adopted.


Again, stop spouting nonesense. You did NOT rescue these pups. You are not some hero...going around saying "look, I ALMOST rescued these pups" is an insult to people who do real rescue work. My dog was three days beyond her euth date at the shelter and I worked with a rescue to get her out. I rescued her. You? You took puppies from irresposible people who would GIVE two of their dogs away to a complete stranger without question and had their tails aputated....for you. And then you come here thinking everyone would be "oh, thank you SO MUCH for rescuing those poor dogs?" You knew this would turn out badly. Did you expect everyone to cheer?



Lonny said:


> Turns out, the owner of this litter had to have emergency back surgery 1 month ago and had to find homes or else.


Or else what? They post them on craigslist? They sell them to the highest bidder? What happened to the rest of them? Were there more? Why didn't you take them all?



Lonny said:


> The puppies,( both males) think I'm a Hero not a Zero


They are puppies. They will love everyone. You wait until they get older...and since male dobes are prone to male/male aggression, we shall see how big of a hero you are then. Are you equipped to handle it if it happens? Or will the be big black dogs in a shelter? Do you have a trainer on hand? Have some books? crates? Are you ready to deal with them when they readch maturity? Plan to have the nuetered? 



Lonny said:


> Some of you may think it's cruel but I think it's selfish Not to crop & dock certain breeds. Look on petfinder and you'll see that they get adopted. There are plenty of dobies & danes with natural ears. We keep our animals for life, but should something happen to us and they go to a private rescue, I'm not worried about them not getting Picked. They will be magnificent : ) : )


You spew all kinds of stuff, don't you? You and your "we did it for them" and "it's important to me" and "they will be magnificent." Thank GOODNESS you have the forethought to make them look more appealing so when they end up in the shelter they will get adopted. Good for you.

I am hoping for the best, but based on what I have seen so far, my hopes are not going to be up. The fact you think that because the dad had cropped ears he was tested speaks volumes to me. That means nothing. I mean, you had your dogs' tails amputated and ears cropped, but I am willing to bet you will NOT have them health tested, but, if we use your method of "they are cropped, so they are tested," I guess all is right with the world.

I hope you get yourself educated, learn how to raise littermates, and stop worrying about looks and start worrying about these puppies. They need guidance, training, classes, and I hope that they don't end up as big black dogs in a shelter...


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

I understand what ya'll are saying about tail docking at 3 days old, I thought it was to late myself, BUT one of the Best Ear Crop Vets in the country said " They Do That " So that is Good Enough for Me.
If the dogs fight each other to the point we can't control them, I guess we'll have to give one away. One of the Vet Techs really really wants one and wishes I would of brought back a third puppie for her. I hope it does not come to that, we are bonded with them already.
They seem to be equals, one no more aggressive then the other. I've seen a lot of litter mates lifelong friends. I did read about it's not best to get two the same age because they can pick up bad behavior from the other and that it's best to get one trained and then get another.
I'm hoping they learn from my 5 year old female doberman. Who by the way thinks they are Ugly Halfbreed puppies and have no Rust Beauty Marks, like her pups did ( before we got her ) She is not mean to them, she just walks way around them and doesn't look real happy with us. But she is special and only she is allowed to go to the barn with us. She has a job, she secures the perimeter and gets paid 3 cookies 3 times a day for going with us : ) She'll get over it when they are big enough to play with. We don't think she would have excepted an adult dog, yet she has been acting lonely since our Big Boy dobie died in July.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Lonny said:


> I understand what ya'll are saying about tail docking at 3 days old, I thought it was to late myself, BUT one of the Best Ear Crop Vets in the country said " They Do That " So that is Good Enough for Me.
> If the dogs fight each other to the point we can't control them, I guess we'll have to give one away. One of the Vet Techs really really wants one and wishes I would of brought back a third puppie for her. I hope it does not come to that, we are bonded with them already.
> They seem to be equals, one no more aggressive then the other. I've seen a lot of litter mates lifelong friends. I did read about it's not best to get two the same age because they can pick up bad behavior from the other and that it's best to get one trained and then get another.
> I'm hoping they learn from my 5 year old female doberman. Who by the way thinks they are Ugly Halfbreed puppies and have no Rust Beauty Marks, like her pups did ( before we got her ) She is not mean to them, she just walks way around them and doesn't look real happy with us. But she is special and only she is allowed to go to the barn with us. She has a job, she secures the perimeter and gets paid 3 cookies 3 times a day for going with us : ) She'll get over it when they are big enough to play with. We don't think she would have excepted an adult dog, yet she has been acting lonely since our Big Boy dobie died in July.


Are you SERIOUS? Really?

"we keep our dogs for life"
"we may give one away?"

And you are saying your current dog is shunning the pups because they aren't are pretty as her puppies are?

She is reacting the same way anyy dog reacts to a new animal in the house.

This situation is making me more and more outraged. Really.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Lonny said:


> I understand what ya'll are saying about tail docking at 3 days old, I thought it was to late myself, BUT one of the Best Ear Crop Vets in the country said " They Do That " So that is Good Enough for Me.


Yes I like it when people tell me things I want to hear, too. I never think to question their motivation because that might make me uncomfortable and dissuade me from what I want to do.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, since an ear crop vet said it was okay to dock tails....I guess when my dentist tells me I need my appendix out, I should listen. They are in the same field, right?

Gah.


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## Lonny (Nov 12, 2011)

HeyogaChick, Your just a Hater period. Unless I would have adopted a 3 legged blind dog from a shelter, I have a feeling you'd find something wrong with that too.

I doult you know more then one of the Best in the Business.
Spew you !


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I would definitely keep a close eye on your female Doberman ... she isn't sounding very enthused ... and since she is special ... she may have other plans for those pups. I suggest not leaving them alone with her in any circumstance. If my dog were walking way back and around and circling a puppy I would think they were up to no good. She may not like them invading her territory......for the puppies safety.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Lonny said:


> .
> I'm hoping they learn from my 5 year old female doberman. Who by the way thinks they are Ugly Halfbreed puppies and have no Rust Beauty Marks, like her pups did ( before we got her ) She is not mean to them, she just walks way around them and doesn't look real happy with us. But she is special and only she is allowed to go to the barn with us. She has a job, she secures the perimeter and gets paid 3 cookies 3 times a day for going with us : ) She'll get over it when they are big enough to play with. We don't think she would have excepted an adult dog, yet she has been acting lonely since our Big Boy dobie died in July.


 
ROFL, NO dog has that kind of thoughts, you are projecting your emotions onto her. They are NEW DOGS in HER TERRITORY, it will take time for her to adjust to having two highly energetic pups disturbing her peace. Hopefully she does adjust and doesn't decide to kill one or both.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Lonny said:


> HeyogaChick, Your just a Hater period. Unless I would have adopted a 3 legged blind dog from a shelter, I have a feeling you'd find something wrong with that too.
> 
> I doult you know more then one of the Best in the Business.
> Spew you !


Not a hater. I am a dog lover...and I don't like when people rationalize choices.

You didn't get it, did you? My point is that just because someone tells you it is okay, doesn't mean that it is. Ear cropping and tail docking are two very different procedures...and docking tails late means complications. Period.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Lonny said:


> HeyogaChick, Your just a Hater period. Unless I would have adopted a 3 legged blind dog from a shelter, I have a feeling you'd find something wrong with that too.
> 
> I doult you know more then one of the Best in the Business.
> Spew you !


I think "business" is the key word here.


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