# Training by "pack mentality".....??



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi everyone!!! 

I've got a 6 month old lab/shepard rescue with some aggression issues. Mainly around food and possession guarding. We got him at 4 months old, and have noticed the aggression increasing lately to the point that he will bite us if we are close to his food...... I've tried hand feeding him out of the bowl, and he growled and then attacked me today..... biting me in the hand while I was holding his bowl. 

We've been bringing him to some general dog training classes taught at a local dog daycare facility run by a lady who absolutely LOVES dogs. She's super into all the natural stuff. Raw diet, anti-neutering, anti-vaccine, anti-treat training, things like that. She lives on the premises, and has a bunch of her own dogs that she's adopted and taken in when owners thought all was lost..... and she runs a doggy daycare centre and raw food supply store on her property too. 

We were asking her about some of Oscar's aggression issues, and she has suggested bringing him to board with her for 2 weeks so that she can watch him in action around other dogs and during meal time, and have him learn through her other dogs (free of charge). She has some "pack leader" shepards, and thinks that if he spends some time with a pack of older dogs, that they might be able to both nurture him and also put him in his place, and teach him some things that humans cannot. She suspects that either he was taken from his mother too early and never got the basic training he needed to feel comfortable and confident, or else the place we rescued him from didn't treat him very well..... but either way, is this worth a try?!?!

It sounds a bit crazy, but a friend of mine had a troubled dog, brought him to her for a week, and she says he's like a new dog now. 

It's worth a try? And the fact that she isn't going to charge us is pretty nice of her. Like I said, she REALLY loves dogs, and I think that she is worried that I might give him away if this aggression doesn't stop.

My main concern is causing even more upset for him. He was with his mother for the first few weeks of life, then another home for two months, then our home for two months, so to take him away for 2 weeks.... will he think he's been abandoned again??


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

What sort of training methods does she use if she is anti treat?


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Gally said:


> What sort of training methods does she use if she is anti treat?


She says praise or gentle correction is enough for dogs. But apparently not for ours.  He is most certainly not motivated enough by just a head pat.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I do think that being around some. . .hmm, I kind of want to call them "well-balanced dogs" but that's a CM word . But being around dogs who are secure and confident can be good for a young dog who was taken from the litter too soon. One of my friends has a weird dog, reactive and high-strung. She acts a lot better after she spends time with my dogs, even if all they do is go sniff things together. Maybe she just forgets how to be a dog, idk. 

I would want more details about how the trainer herself will treat your dog. Like, what does she consider "gentle correction"? When will she intervene in the dogs' interactions, if it seems like the adult dogs are ganging up on the puppy? Make sure you have a good understanding of what will be going on.

But as for the simple concept of sending a nutty young dog to be around some confident older dogs, I'm all for that.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I wouldn't touch a board and train with someone as you described if ya paid me. Aside from her dubious training philosophy, I would question the judgment of anyone that runs a boarding or daycare facility who is anit-vaccine. Parvo and distemper are highly high contagious and are horrible things for a dog to suffer and maybe die from. Limited vaccines in terms of how often an adult dog gets boosters is totally different than anti-vaccine.

For dogs that are stressed or lack dog social skills or don't know "how to dog" so to speak, being around well mannered and confident dogs, particularly one on one or in small, well matched groups can help the dog learn to relax and play and interact with confidence. I have seen this over and over in my own fosters. But i would see no reason that even the most well behaved dog could teach another dog not to resource guard against humans.

Remember that once the dog is boarding with somone, you have zero actual knowledge of what is going on behind closed doors.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

It sounds like seeking professional help is a good idea - so many people refuse to accept that they can't do it themselves (or give up entirely), so good on you. Are you able to elaborate on the types of methods this trainer uses? What types of methods have you been using to work with his aggression?

However, Pack theory (or dominance theory or alpha theory or whatever you want to call it) is based on outdated observations of unrelated, captive wolves that are not representative of how wolves behave in the wild, and has been disproved for many years. Besides, as closely as they are related, dogs are not wolves.

Altering aggressive behaviours (like all behaviour modification) takes time and consistency. Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone to train my dogs did not use scientifically validated methods and had a strong understanding of classical conditioning and the four quadrants of operant conditioning. I also wouldn't let anyone near my dog who was _against_ "treat training"; punishment-based techniques have been linked to increased aggression and shown to be no more effective than reward-based training methods while causing significant mental and emotional trauma to the dog. (That last study looks specifically at electronic collars, but the theory behind it is the same as other punishment techniques.)

I would look for a second opinion... for me, the risk of emotional trauma due to punishment-based methods is not worth it. I would also not trust a trainer who insisted on the dog be separated from their family in order to work on. In my opinion, training the family how to manage/work on the problem is just as important as modifying the behaviour in the dog.

Anyway, that's what I would do.  Good Luck!


----------



## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> She says praise or gentle correction is enough for dogs. But apparently not for ours.  He is most certainly not motivated enough by just a head pat.


Don't feel bad. Praise or gentle correction is rarely enough to train a dog. At least, not quickly, not to any high level of obedience, and not with a remotely challenging dog. 

I agree with much of what the others have said. I personally would not send my dog away for training, especially not to someone who was anti-vaccine and anti-treats.

There should be some threads on this forum related to resource guarding, which should help you with the food aggression issue. If you do seek a private trainer for help, maybe steer clear of this woman. Find someone who uses positive techniques and doesn't shy away from treats. Resource guarding food is pretty easy to fix with positive methods and patience.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I wholeheartedly agree with Shell, GingerKid, and GoGoGypsy. While it might help your dog to be around mature, confident dogs in general, it's unlikely to help with the resource guarding and pats on the head and gentle corrections (plus whatever "stronger" techniques the woman is apt to use) are not likely to help.

Since you've been bitten, I'd strongly suggest contacting a qualified trainer. Pet Professional Guild has an international directory of force-free trainers. Depending on where you are, we can suggest other resources for you to find assistance.

For general information about resource guarding, check out _Mine!_ by Jean Donaldson and Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention by Patricia McConnell. Both are respected, knowledgeable trainers / behaviorists.

ETA: Did you try any of the strategies suggested in your thread from a few weeks ago?


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Ya, I've been hand-feeding him from the bowl, and yesterday he attacked my husband while he was eating from the bowl he was holding.

And just now, I went to get a drink from my fridge, and he ran down the stairs and attacked me because there was meat thawing on the counter.  Luckily I was wearing thick pants and a sweater because he wasn't wearing a collar and he kept jumping at me and biting me.  Ugh it's getting worse and I don't know what to do. I no longer feel safe around him.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I agree that it seems you need professional help, just that this person isn't the one to hep you. Cookieface posted good links.

When you say that he kept jumping and biting at you, what exactly do you mean by "biting"? Was he bearing down, was he grazing teeth, was he snapping but making some contact, snapping but making no contact etc?


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

I was wearing a thick sweater, so hard to tell exactly how hard he was meaning to bite. Most certainly harder then he does when he plays....... probably not hard enough to draw blood, but hard enough to leave a bruise.


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I was wearing a thick sweater, so hard to tell exactly how hard he was meaning to bite. Most certainly harder then he does when he plays....... probably not hard enough to draw blood, but hard enough to leave a bruise.


Without being there to see it, it sounds like a warning snap; contact with teeth (perhaps iffy bite inhibition too, in such a young dog) but no intent to truly hurt.
If he is behaving like this, I would not try to 'get him used to you' by putting your hand in his bowl. Instead, completely ignore him when he's eating (no eye contact, no petting, no looming over him), and just walk by, at a comfortable distance, dropping high value food toward him in the process. Don't stop to disturb his eating. At the early stage, you are merely teaching him that your BRIEF presence (no interaction) brings awesome rewards. Keep this up for a good while. You might even see your dog starting to look hopefully toward you when you pass by. When it is clear that you=good, you can try things like calling him over, rewarding, letting him finish eating. Then you can move on to going over to him, putting food in his bowl, letting him finish eating. I never think putting your hand in his bowl is ever a necessary step, if you can just get him fairly comfortable with people's presence around food. But the key is to work slowly and gradually.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

As I just posted in the other thread, seeing a professional is a good idea. I wouldn't let anyone who is anti-treats train my dog though, and in fact I would stay as far away from anyone who trains without treats as I can. Food and treats are things all dogs are motivated by, so it doesn't make any sense to completely eliminate this from training. 

Anti-vaccine isn't a good thing either.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Canyx said:


> Without being there to see it, it sounds like a warning snap; contact with teeth (perhaps iffy bite inhibition too, in such a young dog) but no intent to truly hurt.
> If he is behaving like this, I would not try to 'get him used to you' by putting your hand in his bowl. Instead, completely ignore him when he's eating (no eye contact, no petting, no looming over him), and just walk by, at a comfortable distance, dropping high value food toward him in the process. Don't stop to disturb his eating. At the early stage, you are merely teaching him that your BRIEF presence (no interaction) brings awesome rewards. Keep this up for a good while. You might even see your dog starting to look hopefully toward you when you pass by. When it is clear that you=good, you can try things like calling him over, rewarding, letting him finish eating. Then you can move on to going over to him, putting food in his bowl, letting him finish eating. I never think putting your hand in his bowl is ever a necessary step, if you can just get him fairly comfortable with people's presence around food. But the key is to work slowly and gradually.


I haven't been putting my hand in his bowl. More like holding the bowl while he eats it, so that I never lose control of the food. Because my husband was bit when trying to take the empty bowl away before.... so if we tie him to the door to feed him and put the bowl down, it's hard to get close to him when the food is gone to untie him. The reason I'm tying him is because we feed raw, and he likes to grab large chunks of raw meat or bones and carry them off his mat to places like our couch to eat it, and I can't get close enough to him to get him down without him attacking me. 

I could walk close and drop some more meat as a treat, but if he's tied he may not be able to reach it. So if I threw it and missed the area he could reach with his leash, it would sort of be a fail because he'd be upset he couldn't reach it, and I'd have to get too close to upset him to get the treat closer........ it was easier when we were feeding him outside. I could come to the door with some cheese or something, he'd drop the food and run to me at the door (knowing his food was safe because he was still between it and me), accept the treat with a wagging tail, and then go back to his meal. But now we're under a whole blanket of snow, so outdoor feeding is tricky!!


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

lil_fuzzy said:


> As I just posted in the other thread, seeing a professional is a good idea. I wouldn't let anyone who is anti-treats train my dog though, and in fact I would stay as far away from anyone who trains without treats as I can. Food and treats are things all dogs are motivated by, so it doesn't make any sense to completely eliminate this from training.
> 
> Anti-vaccine isn't a good thing either.


I'm not sure if she is entirely anti-vaccine, but is most certainly anti-over vaccine, and says that vets push too many to make money.

She said that the rabies vaccine doesn't even save the dogs life if they come into contact with rabies, it's more to give us time... is that true?

I think her offer was mostly for her to submerse my dog with her older dog "pack" so that he can learn his place, and feel a sense of security. She said that at doggy daycare, he seems nervous around other dogs, and piddles a bit when they approach.... so she thinks that spending some more time with dogs may help his insecurity and give him some life lessons that humans just can't. She's offered to do it free of charge..... she really does LOVE dogs, and I think she's worried that I'm going to give him up because of this. So I'm thinking it might be worth a shot?? If it doesn't work, then we call in another type of trainer?


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I'm not sure if she is entirely anti-vaccine, but is most certainly anti-over vaccine, and says that vets push too many to make money.
> 
> She said that the rabies vaccine doesn't even save the dogs life if they come into contact with rabies, it's more to give us time... is that true?
> 
> I think her offer was mostly for her to submerse my dog with her older dog "pack" so that he can learn his place, and feel a sense of security. She said that at doggy daycare, he seems nervous around other dogs, and piddles a bit when they approach.... so she thinks that spending some more time with dogs may help his insecurity and give him some life lessons that humans just can't. She's offered to do it free of charge..... she really does LOVE dogs, and I think she's worried that I'm going to give him up because of this. So I'm thinking it might be worth a shot?? If it doesn't work, then we call in another type of trainer?


There are so many things that could go wrong by surrounding him with other dogs - are you willing to risk that he returns to you with more fears and greater anxiety? What if he returns completely shut down? Or, so traumatized that he's even more likely to resource guard and react? Contact a qualified, force-free trainer or behaviorist who will actually help with this and other issues.

It also sounds as though raw feeding is an issue for actually addressing the resource guarding. I'd recommend feeding a high quality kibble while you work through this and then, when he's ready, slowly transition back to raw while keeping the behavior modification protocol in place.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

cookieface said:


> There are so many things that could go wrong by surrounding him with other dogs - are you willing to risk that he returns to you with more fears and greater anxiety? What if he returns completely shut down? Or, so traumatized that he's even more likely to resource guard and react? Contact a qualified, force-free trainer or behaviorist who will actually help with this and other issues.
> 
> It also sounds as though raw feeding is an issue for actually addressing the resource guarding. I'd recommend feeding a high quality kibble while you work through this and then, when he's ready, slowly transition back to raw while keeping the behavior modification protocol in place.


Everything that I was about to say. Including the suggestion of switching to kibble that I made in the other thread  

The thing about saying it is "worth a shot" and that if it doesn't work then you'd try a different trainer is that without knowing more about the training and the boarding situation, I'd say that it is NOT at all worth a shot because the risks of getting a dog back with greater problems than you already have are too high. Right now you seem to have a young dog that may have a mix of some resource guarding and some simply being an over stimulated land shark. After 2 weeks at this board and train, you could have a truly aggressive terrified dog for example.

Some things to consider--- if she uses corrections, what does she escalate to if "minor"corrections don't produce results? Anytime there is a short time frame to majorly change a behavior, there can be the temptation to short cut things and ramp up the corrections to modify behavior faster but without fixing the root causes of the behavior.

If she is a big believer in the "pack" helping train the other dogs, how well are they supervised? 

Are all the dogs fed together or have access to another dog's food while they are eating? If another dog tries to get at his food while he is eating and no one intervenes, it reinforces the need to resource guard as it proves that someone might steal his food. If he fights back if a dog goes for his food, you could end up with a badly injured dog and a human could be injured too.

Also, part of training the dog is teaching the humans to recognize dog body language and to train the humans how to train. Board and traings, unless they have significant follow-up time and maybe also an in-home component, don't train the humans at all.

If you cannot find a qualified professional in your area that can observe his behavior in your home, you may be able to find someone qualified who is willing to offer at least some basic advice via Skype or video. Like, at least giving you can idea of what level of actual aggression you are dealing with.

ETA: as for that trainer's comment on the rabies vaccine, the rabies vaccine does protect dogs which is why it is so successful in reducing human rabies cases. Once enough dogs are vaccinated against rabies to create a herd immunity, the transmission of rabies from dogs to humans drops to almost zero. In areas where rabies is still endemic in dogs, the vast majority of human rabies cases are from dog contact. Dogs known to have had contact with a rabid animal are often advised to get a booster shot and i believe there can be quarantine requirements too.

http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/adoption-pet-care/safety/rabies-facts-prevention.html


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes to EVERYTHING Shell just wrote.

I, personally, am not comfortable with anti-treat trainers. Especially after having spent several months now looking into the research on how dogs/animals/humans actually learn. 

Anyway, I also agree with the suggestion that you might want to back off the raw feeding for a while and gradually work it back in later once these issues are more under control. I know you've mentioned not wanting to switch to kibble because your dog is doing really well on raw (believe me, I understand - we feed raw, too), but I think in the long run it might be better to switch for a little while. You don't want to end up with a really bad bite that could send someone to the ER and possibly get the pup confiscated, you know?


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I haven't been putting my hand in his bowl. More like holding the bowl while he eats it, so that I never lose control of the food. Because my husband was bit when trying to take the empty bowl away before.... so if we tie him to the door to feed him and put the bowl down, it's hard to get close to him when the food is gone to untie him. The reason I'm tying him is because we feed raw, and he likes to grab large chunks of raw meat or bones and carry them off his mat to places like our couch to eat it, and I can't get close enough to him to get him down without him attacking me.
> 
> I could walk close and drop some more meat as a treat, but if he's tied he may not be able to reach it. So if I threw it and missed the area he could reach with his leash, it would sort of be a fail because he'd be upset he couldn't reach it, and I'd have to get too close to upset him to get the treat closer........ it was easier when we were feeding him outside. I could come to the door with some cheese or something, he'd drop the food and run to me at the door (knowing his food was safe because he was still between it and me), accept the treat with a wagging tail, and then go back to his meal. But now we're under a whole blanket of snow, so outdoor feeding is tricky!!


Raw does cause a different reaction in some dogs. I know mine is WAY more guardy about raw than he is with kibble. Instead of controlling the bowl though, how about having your dog on a long leash, at a distance where he's comfortable eating, but you holding the leash instead of the food? When he is done you can call him over, or gently pull him over, and reward him with more food, while someone else took the food bowl away.
Simultaneously you could try to make him less guardy about the food bowl in general... What if you taught your dog to bring the bowl to you, and rewarded him by putting a piece of food in it and letting him eat out of it? Or, outside of meal times, when he is not guarding the bowl randomly pick it up throughout the day, put small rewards in it and offer it to him. The whole idea is teaching him that you approaching the bowl means he's about to get rewarded. But offering a small reward is different than a meal because meals are large, possibly really high value, so it makes him guard. And if you ONLY ever hold the food bowl and take it away after meals, then your dog only sees your interaction with the bowl as intrusive.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I would personally not be feeding this dog raw if he did even decently well on kibble. Regardless of whatever health benefits it may or may not have for him, if it ends with a serious bite incident and euthanasia it's certainly not helping him.

Please read "Mine!" and please get a trainer who uses positive reinforcement (treats and toys) to help you with this problem before you get seriously hurt.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Shell said:


> Also, part of training the dog is teaching the humans to recognize dog body language and to train the humans how to train. Board and traings, unless they have significant follow-up time and maybe also an in-home component, don't train the humans at all.


So much this. IMO many dogs have behavior problems because the humans either create the problem in the first place or make an already existing problem worse because they just don't know what they're doing.


----------



## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> It sounds a bit crazy, but a friend of mine had a troubled dog, brought him to her for a week, and she says he's like a new dog now.


I would be cautious about assuming that if it worked for another dog it will work for yours. The list of variables starts with the behavior problem that was being treated and goes on from there. The plural of anecdote is not data, as they say.

It really sounds to me like you are not comfortable with letting your dog go, even for a short period. I would feel the same way in your situation. And I think it's a normal, correct reaction. I have no doubt that this trainer really does love dogs is just trying to be nice, but just because someone offers you something out of the goodness of their heart doesn't mean you have to take it - ESPECIALLY if you aren't comfortable with it.

There are probably some behavioral issues (especially concerning dog-dog interactions) that can be helped by socialization with more well-adjusted dogs. IMO, resource guarding isn't one of them. What we know about animal learning (based on thousands of scientific studies) indicates that dogs do not generalize behavior very well. This means that what the dog learns in one place with one person will not necessarily be translated to other people and places. Ironically, this is actually a GOOD thing. It means that you can train a dog to lay on the furniture in the basement, but not in the family room. Or you can train them to bark when people come to the door, but not at squirrels. They are actually really smart about whether this situation is the same as the situation they trained in, which means you can train them to do very specific things in very specific situations (and only in those situations). So, even if your dog learns not to guard at this trainer's facility, it is highly likely that what he learns will not carry over to your house, and you'll be right back where you started.

I also have some experience to share regarding the "anti-treat" idea. I used to use primarily corrections with my dog. Then I read the research and decided to take a more scientific approach. And it turned out that treats work. What they say in economics is just as true of dogs as it is of people: "People respond to incentives. All the rest is commentary." We don't work for free, and I don't believe we should expect our dogs to either. If you use treats (or sniff time, or affection or whatever you dog finds rewarding) you get better results and you will get them FASTER. That's just facts. It's backed up by tons of studies. Can you use corrections and get results? Absolutely. But it's inefficient and requires your constant attention. When I used corrections with my dog I had to be 100% focused on him and ready to give the correction if he slipped up. Once I started using positive reinforcement, the behaviors actually changed instead of just being suppressed. I just...I swear to you, R+ training just works better. It really does. Sometimes corrections can appear to give faster results because the behavior stops immediately, but it's a surface thing. Underneath, the dog still WANTS to do the Bad Thing, but he doesn't because he knows he'll get smacked. So he waits for his chance. If you do positive reinforcement the dog actually WANTS to do the Good Thing because he knows he'll get paid.

When I had aggression issues with mine, I paid a behaviorist to come to the house. It was expensive, but it was worth it. I knew in general what needed to be done, but I just didn't have the experience to nail down the specifics, and the behaviorist helped me do that. I highly recommend finding someone with a background in animal behavior to help you with this. You don't need someone to fix your dog; you need someone to help YOU do the training so that he's happy and you're comfortable with him. You can do this. You obviously care enough about this dog to put in the time and the work. I don't think you need someone else to whisk him away and magically "fix" him. He's not broken. He just needs to learn a new way of doing things.

In the meantime, I think a bunch of the suggestions you got on this thread are amazing and wonderful. While you are arranging for a long-term solution, it's essential that he not be given the opportunity to "practice" this behavior. The more he bites, the more he will bite and the harder it will be to get him out of that habit. There is nothing wrong with managing the behavior by just leaving him alone while he eats and making sure no one can disturb him. If switching him to kibble is necessary to accomplish this, there's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, that's my take on it. It's definitely a tough situation and I admire the way you are sticking with it. Good luck!


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

My husband fed him tonight. He's not afraid of him at all, so he just put on his winter boots, pants, jacket and gloves, and had the dog on a close leash and fed him the meal outside.

Anytime the dog started to growl, he pulled the dog away from the bowl and pinned him to the ground and held him down until he calmed down, and then let the dog go back to the food bowl once he was calm again. The dog only growled/was pinned twice before he stopped doing it, and my husband was patting his head by the end of the meal. They both came in together, and the dog was perfectly happy, running around with his tail wagging with his squeaky toy, trying to get us to play with him. Could it be that he's just going through puberty and trying to test his limits, and if my husband continues to feed him and not let him get away with all the growling/biting that he'll eventually stop and learn that he can't get away with it???

I'm super nervous about him getting bitten, but he's not afraid and claims that the dog can't "get him" when he's holding him with the close leash.


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah, that's a train wreck waiting to happen. Please stop doing that before someone gets seriously hurt.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

That's pretty much the opposite of what you should do to fix this... I'd HIGHLY recommend stopping that immediately!


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

You are right, I am certainly not comfortable with him being "whisked away" for 2 weeks. I really don't believe in some magical "learn how to dog better and you'll be magically fixed in all ways" scenario. Maybe it works for this woman because she has a lot of dogs that are always living together in a pack, and she has a lot of outdoor space for them to run and play together and stuff. And she probably isn't like my family, where we want the dog to essentially be cuddly with us. Her dogs are more like outdoor dogs that she probably pets here and there, but nothing like what we do. 

And my friend's dog who was "fixed" by having him board was maybe due to a bunch of factors. He was switched to raw at the start of boarding, and his issues were more about dog socialization and being too high energy with other dogs and "bugging" them all the time, and mostly just being overly hyper, and getting into everything, not aggressive towards people. So I'm sure the new diet, plus the increased exercise, and learning to live with other dogs helped him because his issues were more along the lines of the things that other dogs COULD teach. Plus the exercise I'm sure, as it didn't sound like he was getting out much before.

I am also weary about how other dogs will teach Oscar not to attack us when food is around. Yes, they can teach him that he's not the boss of THEM, yes they can teach him bite inhabitation, they will certainly give him exercise.... but I am also worried about them teaching him to be even more uncomfortable at our house. 

When we first got him, he'd been living with a 17 year old girl and her boyfriend, and an older German Shepard. So he has lived with an older dog before. And it took him a while to warm up to us when he first came... he was always pacing and whining, and cried all night long. On walks, he always seemed to like other dogs more then humans. And it's my guess that this older dog most likely used to steal his food, as this 17 year old girl did not train him AT ALL. He wasn't house trained and didn't even know "sit" or his own name at 4 months (at least it didn't seem that way). So I doubt she closely monitored their behaviour and eating..... so my guess is that this is where his guarding came from.

When I mentioned this to the "dog lady" and asked her how it would generalize, her response was along the lines of "it seems like somewhere, he wasn't nurtured properly. Either taken away from his mother too soon, or was the runt of the litter, or the breeders fed all the pups out of the same bowl and he didn't get enough, or this older Shepard used to steal his food. But regardless, she thinks spending time in a "pack" will help him to hopefully re-adjust his fears from childhood while he's still a puppy, and fix whatever it is that happened to him. Knowing his place in a pack will help him to become a more balanced dog.

I dunno..... sounds a bit far-fetched to me. My husband likes the idea... but then again, he's the one on board with the anti-treat correction training methods, the raw diet, and pretty much anything this woman tells him. Whereas I've had a dog before, and I never did ANY of that stuff. We vaccinated our dog, got her fixed when the vet suggested, fed her kibble, she was never around any sort of "pack" and did ok, and we trained her with treats. And she was a perfectly normal household pet.


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Here are three things about that method that bother me:
1. Think about how stressed out your dog is becoming during mealtimes. 
2. Even if your husband is able to pat the dog's head during feeding, others might not do the same. 
3. Pinning might teach him growling is not acceptable but doesn't change how possessive your dog FEELS when eating. The dog is being taught not to give warnings, and the likelihood of a more severe and unpredictable reaction increases (ex. dog is eating and suddenly bites, no warnings whatsoever).


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Your husband is a fool.

Are YOU not comprehending anything that's being advised here? Apparently, it all seems to be going in one ear and out the other.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Sending the dog away would be better than your husband bullying him like that :/. That's just a disaster waiting to happen.

(OK, I tried not to say anything but this annoys me. The reason for not abusing a dog is not "because he'll bite you". The reason for not abusing a dog is because IT'S THE WRONG THING TO DO. Yeah, he'll get aggressive too, but this shouldn't need saying. But I suppose general wrongness is not a very motivating factor for some people)


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

The way your husband fed the dog is a good way to create a worse problem. The dog may or may not learn not to bite at your husband that way, but he is more likely to become more unpredictable, more aggressive, to skip any warning growls and go right to biting, and while he may be fearful enough of your husband to not bite him, that won't translate to other humans who become even more at risk.

Trust is at the base of a good relationship between a dog and a person just as it is between two people. Taking away food randomly, punishing and pinning a dog are all things that destroy what trust you may have from the dog.

I can hold a chunk of raw beef heart for Chester to chew and have no worry of him biting me, I can ask for and then carry away from him a raw beef bone that he'd been chewing on. I can do this because he trusts me. He trusts that I will let him eat his dinner of beef heart and that i am just helping him out so it doest slip around the bowl. He trusts that if I remove the raw bone, that somthing else good will happen. Maybe another food item, maybe I will return instead with his leash and collar to go for a walk which is also an awesome thing. 

It takes time to build that kind of trust but only a moment to destroy it. Thankfully, dogs are a bit more forgiving than people are if you start back at the beginning to rebuild trust.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Your dog may not bite your husband, but he might get worse with other people. He can't bite hubby, but he can bite everyone else, so to compensate for the stress and lack of control he feels around food, he might get a lot more dangerous around food with everyone except hubby.

A dog who is a resource guarder doesn't necessarily just guard the bowl, he could also guard the spot where you feed him. If you feed him in a crate to keep everyone safe, he might start guarding the crate. If you move the crate he might guard the spot where it was sitting.

Find a reward based trainer in your area who uses treats and toys, and get some professional help.


----------



## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Could it be that he's just going through puberty and trying to test his limits, and if my husband continues to feed him and not let him get away with all the growling/biting that he'll eventually stop and learn that he can't get away with it???


I don't think there's any evidence to support this, no. Punishment suppresses behavior rather than changing it. What the dog is learning from this is that he is powerless to protect his food from your husband. But he still *wants* to protect his food. So any time he thinks he has a chance of getting your husband (or anyone else) to back off by biting, he will do it.

Even people who use corrections (prong collars and shock collars) say that pinning a dog is a bad idea. Leerburg has a good video on why that's the case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-15QnSF_tZ8

As others have mentioned, there is also a well-documented phenomenon where you can actually train a dog to bite without warning using these methods. What happens is that the dog learns that normal dog communication (like growling) doesn't work. So he skips the growling entirely and bites, seemingly at random. That's extremely dangerous for obvious reasons.

Lastly...the dog is young, right? Not yet a year? Once he gets older and more confident, his behavior will change. He will be more likely to step into the ring with other dogs and humans. So even if this method of pinning him when he growls seems to work, it is very likely that will change once he matures. I've seen this happen firsthand.

I really hope you'll consider researching this and taking a more balanced approach.


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

OP, my dog was also a pretty intense resource guarder. Even as a puppy he growled, snarled, and even lunged at people for coming near him while eating, and I'm talking bowls of kibble not even raw meat. Thankfully no one was ever bitten. But I've worked hard on it and, after a long time, have gotten him to the point where people and dogs can pass within inches of him when he's chewing on a raw bone and he will ignore them. If I had tried to control him or punish him for reacting around food, I am not exaggerating when I say I think he would have become a dangerous dog. But through a LOT of rewarding... He doesn't react when we're around him and his food not because he's afraid of reacting, but because he's learned to trust that other beings aren't going to take his things and they might even give him more/better things. 
That said, I made a thread just a few weeks ago as a reminder that my dog will ALWAYS be a resource guarder. I've had him since he was 12 weeks old and he is almost 9 years old now. He's been 'good' about guarding for years, but just last year he snarled and lunged (no contact) at my roommate who was simply passing by the hall when Soro was chewing on a bone. This was the first incident in years, but it reminded me I needed to either put him in a 'safe' and non-busy place, or continue to reward around high value things he can guard. I, and my roommates, can still be completely around him when he's eating but even I will not purposefully disturb him (unless it's to give him food) around his meals or chews. He is fed raw now. Besides that one incident all has been well. I am not worried about him, and I myself am not stressed either when my dog is eating. 

The point of writing this is to share my experience; I know how frustrating it can be when your normally playful and loving dog starts glowering at you. I know how it feels like they've turned into different animals once food comes into play. And I want to tell you that you might never get a dog that will be all kisses and wags when you interact with it while its eating. I think that is an unreasonable expectation. I don't think your dog NEEDS to be a dog that accepts being pet while eating. But it is very reasonable to positively work toward a dog that is safe and comfortable to be around while it's eating. I think it is possible to train a dog to walk away from a high value item instead of happily accept you taking it away, or train it to be okay with you taking bowls or high value items when they're not in use. You can build trust and you will feel in control at the same time. You use fear and you build the illusion of control while in reality it slips further and further away. 
It takes a lot of work and continuous work (around new people, new items, new places). But it's worth it, and you can get there if you work at it.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study



> summary:
> In a new, year-long survey of dog owners who use confrontational or aversive methods to train aggressive pets, veterinary researchers have found that most of these animals will continue to be aggressive unless training techniques are modified.
> 
> full article:
> ...


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

So I bought and read "Mine!" and started working on it tonight. Did all of the steps with the empty bowl, no problem. 

Then I added his raw meal, and didn't get past step 1. He growled as I approached, and I threw the cheese and walked away repeatedly from different directions at different time intervals until he finished. The last few times he didn't growl.... so guess that's a good thing. I had him leashed to the door so that he couldn't lunge at me while doing it.

I'll wait a bit and then maybe try to work on some object trading as well with a zero-guarded item with a less-valued reward then the cheese I used at dinner.

The method seems all well and good for changing his conditioned response from fear to "Yippee" when someone approaches his bowl, but what about for guarding when you don't realize he's doing it? Like if there was a bone hidden somewhere that you didn't realize, or he smelled something somewhere that you didn't realize? Would he then still attack?


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Training is all about setting up a predictable response in a controlled setting, so that you may have better chances in an uncontrolled setting. Would he happily let you take you away from a bone he finds on a street, or a dead animal he finds in the woods? Maybe not. But THE MORE you work on this conditioning now, and things like recalling away from high value objects, the better chances you'll have if he finds something you don't expect. All you can ever do is prepare as best as you can, and that is something worth doing.


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Over time you can work on generalizing that you approaching any high value item is a good thing. Start small and work your way up.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Personally I think the "feed the dog meals bit by bit" thing is not necessarily a go-to solution. Imagine you're really hungry, and you have to wait for someone to be all "Open up for the airplane! Vrooom!" for every bite of dinner, when you're perfectly capable of feeding yourself. I'd melt the eff down, too, and I'm not an adolescent puppy. It seems like 95% of your problems would be solved by
1)Get some good kibble or premix food or whatever
2)Dump it in a dish
3)Put the dog and the dish in a crate or quiet room, and let the poor dog eat its freaking dinner in peace

Right now you are trying to address the dog being totally amped up and guardy about food...by making every mealtime an ordeal with super high value food, and super intense training sessions. Take it down ten thousand notches by using lower-value food and doing your training when the dog isn't hungry and anticipating a meal. 

If it were me, I'd give the dog a weeks or two or three of just eating in peace, then switch to giving the dog like 3/4 of dinner in peace to take the edge off, and an hour or whatever later doing a training session with the remaining 1/4 of dinner. Right now everything is all urgent and dramatic. Lower the stakes and the intensity level and maybe everyone's brains can start functioning more rationally.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Your dog may not bite your husband, but he might get worse with other people. He can't bite hubby, but he can bite everyone else, so to compensate for the stress and lack of control he feels around food, he might get a lot more dangerous around food with everyone except hubby.


Yes, this. If your husband keeps doing this, you could easily end up with a dangerous dog that could attack and seriously harm you or a guest. You could end up with a dog who has learned that growling is unacceptable, so goes straight to a bite with no warning growl. These are the dogs you hear about in the news who "attacked without warning."

Please contact a REAL behaviorist, not some Cesar Millan wannabe board-and-trainer.


----------



## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I haven't been putting my hand in his bowl. More like holding the bowl while he eats it, so that I never lose control of the food. Because my husband was bit when trying to take the empty bowl away before.... so if we tie him to the door to feed him and put the bowl down, it's hard to get close to him when the food is gone to untie him. The reason I'm tying him is because we feed raw, and he likes to grab large chunks of raw meat or bones and carry them off his mat to places like our couch to eat it, and I can't get close enough to him to get him down without him attacking me.
> 
> I could walk close and drop some more meat as a treat, but if he's tied he may not be able to reach it. So if I threw it and missed the area he could reach with his leash, it would sort of be a fail because he'd be upset he couldn't reach it, and I'd have to get too close to upset him to get the treat closer........ it was easier when we were feeding him outside. I could come to the door with some cheese or something, he'd drop the food and run to me at the door (knowing his food was safe because he was still between it and me), accept the treat with a wagging tail, and then go back to his meal. But now we're under a whole blanket of snow, so outdoor feeding is tricky!!


I'm a little confused. You feed raw but tie him up while he's eating? Does anyone see this as part of the issue? I do. If your covered in snow maybe you need to find another feeding location. Garage, porch? We only feed RMB 1x per week so the snow is not much issue for us because we just find a space wherever. We feed mostly raw grinds in our kitchen but our dogs are trained to sit while we put their food down, and stay until we say "release". When we feed RMBs outside, same scenario of sit, stay, release. My younger dog gets ansty but I just keep walking her back to her spot until she stays, then they both get to eat. Sorry, but sounds like the pet parent needs to change tactics to me. Unless a trainer is going to live in your house under the same conditions I'm not sure how effective it could be long term. But I've never used a trainer so that's just an opinion.


----------



## Rob 68 (Feb 10, 2015)

I haven't read the book you bought, but you saying "No problem." ("Did all of the steps with the empty bowl, no problem.") sounds great! My dog won't give up a bone without showing teeth and we are trading. I give him a better treat for the bone along with a verbal command and then he can can have the bone back. And then sometimes he can't have it back. His behavior has improved a lot. Could you trade a bowl full of hearts for a bowl full of liver? And back?

About sending the dog away to a trainer ... were you invited to stay, too? Reason I'm asking, a trainer can teach your dog let's say "sit" using a verbal command and/or a hand signal. Then the trainer returns the dog and says the dog knows what to do now when given the command/signal. But if the trainer doesn't tell (teach) you how to do it or you haven't watched him/her do it, you'll be in front of the dog alone trying each word in the dictionary and doing all kind of aerobics. Having a trainer come to your place watching your routine might be more helpful. He/she might correct your body language, set up or something else. And then it's up to you to see if you and your whole household can do what you were taught. I would also skip the tying up. Maybe stand in the doorway and send him back or use a gate. One of my dogs pulled and barked each time we passed the neighbor's dog - when on the leash. Walking by off-leash he heeled and didn't even give the barking dog a glance.

Maybe switching the dog bowls in the beginning might help. If he gets a different bowl with each meal, he might not be protective over the bowl anymore. The first time I switched to an elevated bowl (same spot, same food), two of my dogs became confused. One didn't eat until evening and one figured out, after several hours, he can grab a mouth full of kibble, drop it on the floor and then eat it piece by piece.

Good luck! Reading books and internet can be very helpful. Mastering the first little step is great!


----------



## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> My husband fed him tonight. He's not afraid of him at all, so he just put on his winter boots, pants, jacket and gloves, and had the dog on a close leash and fed him the meal outside.
> 
> Anytime the dog started to growl, he pulled the dog away from the bowl and pinned him to the ground and held him down until he calmed down, and then let the dog go back to the food bowl once he was calm again. The dog only growled/was pinned twice before he stopped doing it, and my husband was patting his head by the end of the meal. They both came in together, and the dog was perfectly happy, running around with his tail wagging with his squeaky toy, trying to get us to play with him. Could it be that he's just going through puberty and trying to test his limits, and if my husband continues to feed him and not let him get away with all the growling/biting that he'll eventually stop and learn that he can't get away with it???
> 
> I'm super nervous about him getting bitten, but he's not afraid and claims that the dog can't "get him" when he's holding him with the close leash.


I think you should bag the leash and feed him outside for a while. Neither of you should be afraid to feed him, honestly he should be excited if anything. The leash may be making him feel trapped.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Kritter said:


> I think you should bag the leash and feed him outside for a while. Neither of you should be afraid to feed him, honestly he should be excited if anything. The leash may be making him feel trapped.


As I was reading through, I wondered if the leash was part of the problem. Leashes or other restrictions can make dogs feel trapped and more likely to "fight" (since the flight option has been removed). I'd agree with giving him his food and leaving him alone to eat. Work through the _Mine_ protocol with lower value items for now. Then, when you've gotten success, move on to more valuable items. 

I still very strongly recommend consulting a behaviorist for, at the very least, a thorough assessment and customized training plan. Someone who can see the dog, his reactions, and your day-to-day situation will be much better able to provide a training plan than a book or random people on the internet (or even your pack-mentality trainer).


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Then I added his raw meal, and didn't get past step 1. He growled as I approached, and I threw the cheese and walked away repeatedly from different directions at different time intervals until he finished. The last few times he didn't growl.... so guess that's a good thing. I had him leashed to the door so that he couldn't lunge at me while doing it.


I think the raw diet may continue to be a problem. The problem is, that when you are approaching to add something to the meal, it really should be higher value than what they have if at all possible. So if he's got raw in the bowl already, what can you give him that is higher value? 

Honestly I would feed this dog kibble for his meals for now, and use raw or cheese for what you toss when you approach. Eventually as the behavior improves you can reintroduce raw as his normal meal, but for now I think it's such a huge part of the problem that you need to manage it.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Ya, I'm thinking the same thing (about switching him back to kibble). It's a shame, as I really do like the idea of feeding raw, and he's done really well on it. There were some "detox" effects he went through when making the switch, so I don't want to have to keep switching his diet and putting his body through stress. So that's why I've been hesitant. That, and the fact that we have purchased a lot of raw meat for him already......

He will stop eating the raw to grab the cheese that I throw towards him, but I don't really think that the cheese will ever be as exciting as raw meat/organs/bones!!!

The leash may be part of the problem..... but we had to, as he was carrying the bones to the couch to eat them... and I certainly don't want raw meat on my furniture! We don't have a porch or deck, our garage is full of other stuff that he could potentially get into, same with our basement. His crate is upstairs, so we could feed him in the crate, just don't want him to get protective over that as it's in a heavily trafficked area of our house.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

cookieface said:


> As I was reading through, I wondered if the leash was part of the problem. Leashes or other restrictions can make dogs feel trapped and more likely to "fight" (since the flight option has been removed). I'd agree with giving him his food and leaving him alone to eat. Work through the _Mine_ protocol with lower value items for now. Then, when you've gotten success, move on to more valuable items.
> 
> I still very strongly recommend consulting a behaviorist for, at the very least, a thorough assessment and customized training plan. Someone who can see the dog, his reactions, and your day-to-day situation will be much better able to provide a training plan than a book or random people on the internet (or even your pack-mentality trainer).


This is really great advice! As others pointed out, being on a raw diet won't do your dog any good if it prevents you from modifying his guarding behavior and he continues to bite over it. He's unlikely to suffer permanent health consequences from being on kibble for a few months... but might if he ends up biting someone and sending them to the hospital. (Even if it's just for stitches, in most areas hospitals have to report all dog bites to the local Animal Control which may result in the dog being deemed dangerous and/or euthanized).

If you want to continue using raw as a reward for training (which I think is a great idea), it should be easy enough to use bits of raw meat for meal times (since you'd in theory be tossing it in his bowl - less mess), and consider getting commercial freeze-dried raw food or treats to use as rewards. They're not cheap, but if they're higher value than cheese (or whatever else you're using now), it should make the training go faster. You can get very small bags and/or samples of most brands of freeze-dried raw to try it out and see how your dog likes it.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Ya, I'm thinking the same thing (about switching him back to kibble). It's a shame, as I really do like the idea of feeding raw, and he's done really well on it. There were some "detox" effects he went through when making the switch, so I don't want to have to keep switching his diet and putting his body through stress. So that's why I've been hesitant. That, and the fact that we have purchased a lot of raw meat for him already......
> 
> He will stop eating the raw to grab the cheese that I throw towards him, but I don't really think that the cheese will ever be as exciting as raw meat/organs/bones!!!
> 
> The leash may be part of the problem..... but we had to, as he was carrying the bones to the couch to eat them... and I certainly don't want raw meat on my furniture! We don't have a porch or deck, our garage is full of other stuff that he could potentially get into, same with our basement. His crate is upstairs, so we could feed him in the crate, just don't want him to get protective over that as it's in a heavily trafficked area of our house.


I really don't think that switching back to kibble will put his body under stress unless he happens to have some food sensitivity or IBD for example. Many people feed part raw and part kibble or switch back and forth while travelling or due to finances or whatever. 

I think he is likely under MORE mental stress now when eating (which also can be a bit of a physical stresser) than a simple food switch would cause.

If you have the freezer space, the raw that you've already purchased will keep basically indefinitely. Just wrap and bag it well against freezer burn (which is texture and cosmetic only anyway, not a food safety issue). He can eat it a year from now if need be. You can also thin slice some boneless portions and dehydrated them to use as small treats to toss in his bowl which is less messy than raw.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think there are a lot of semantic issues going on here, too. I'll try to address some of them, at least in passing.

1. I strongly agree with Sass and Shell. Freeze the raw and go back to kibble. Raw is a very high value food, and the pup is 'guarding' it.
2. A 6 mos pup is NOT a full grown dog. He is still testing and learning how to react, how to behave, and what he can get away with. You might not be able to 'bully' a full grown dog into Not biting, but you Can bully a 6 mos pup ... although a strongly recommend Not using that method.
3. A 6 mos pup still needs training, especially a very intelligent, energetic Lab/GSD.
4. Rather that a removed, pack approach, I suggest a standard socialization approach with as many different, friendly dogs as you can find, one-on-one at first.
5. Look up Bite Inhibition online and in the Forum. At this age, it may help with some of the resource guarding, after removing Raw food from the equation.

@Luxorien - Re: "If you use treats (or sniff time, or affection or whatever you dog finds rewarding) you get better results and you will get them FASTER. That's just facts. It's backed up by tons of studies." Most of us agree with this, but it's not the final word. After initial behaviorism to kickstart training, dogs can easily learn based on Internal rewards, only. Service dogs may not get treats, herding dogs are rewarded by the activity and success (as are Search & Retrieval dogs). Also, please search for Chaser the border collie for an example of a 'pet' dog that is self-rewarded .... Learning Theory based on cognitive psychology.

It may not change how you train, but you may see that an experienced 3 - 5 yo dog may appreciate treats for initial training, but doesn't require treats to improve the behaviors. Kind of like knowledge of Calming Signals helps you fine-tune training b/c you can communicate better with the dog, recognizing what he's feeling...


----------



## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> @Luxorien - Re: "If you use treats (or sniff time, or affection or whatever you dog finds rewarding) you get better results and you will get them FASTER. That's just facts. It's backed up by tons of studies." Most of us agree with this, but it's not the final word. After initial behaviorism to kickstart training, dogs can easily learn based on Internal rewards, only. Service dogs may not get treats, herding dogs are rewarded by the activity and success (as are Search & Retrieval dogs). Also, please search for Chaser the border collie for an example of a 'pet' dog that is self-rewarded .... Learning Theory based on cognitive psychology.


I meant as opposed to aversives.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

OK here's my game plan:

We're going to give him two more weeks of raw, to see how it goes. Instead of tying him up inside, he'll eat outside in the backyard. I'll put him outside before I prepare his dish, so that he has no chance to smell it and do anything, and take it immediately from the fridge and clean all bowls immediately after. We've got this ultra-smelly stuff that we add in, we call it "awful" because it looks/smells awful, but he LOVES it, so half way through his meal, I'll go out, make him sit, and then add the "awful" to his bowl and head back inside. The rest of the time he can eat un-bothred. We'll see how that goes.

Sound good? And in the meantime, I'll work on low-value object switching and gradually work that up to things of greater value......


----------



## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

Sounds like a lot of overthinking here to me. The dog sounds young and confused, as well as trapped by the leash. I understand the need to contain him with the raw. Have you considered grinding the food up so he doesn't drag it on the couch? I'm not sure why you would throw other food at him while he's eating, unless I misunderstood what I read. If you are going to hire a trainer you may want one that will come into your house to observe. 

I don't think it's a big deal to feed kibble every now and then, in fact it may switch it up so that you can implement some training techniques, sit-stay-release(to eat). He's probably looking for some guidance honestly, an opinion since these forums are tough to assess the real world situations.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Kritter said:


> Sounds like a lot of overthinking here to me. The dog sounds young and confused, as well as trapped by the leash. I understand the need to contain him with the raw. Have you considered grinding the food up so he doesn't drag it on the couch? I'm not sure why you would throw other food at him while he's eating, unless I misunderstood what I read. If you are going to hire a trainer you may want one that will come into your house to observe.
> 
> I don't think it's a big deal to feed kibble every now and then, in fact it may switch it up so that you can implement some training techniques, sit-stay-release(to eat). He's probably looking for some guidance honestly, an opinion since these forums are tough to assess the real world situations.


The throwing the food was from the book "Mine!" that people told me to read. 

But instead of doing that, I was just going to come deliver the second half of his meal half way..... just so that he associates someone approaching him as a positive thing (and because it all doesn't fit in his bowl at once). 

I have contacted some behavioral specialists. Very strange but not a single one has gotten back to me...... seems very odd. I'm calling another one tomorrow.

We do the sit-stay-release with the raw food before he starts to eat. He's pretty good at that. It's just once he's released that I need to back up because he doesn't want me near his bowl while he eats. So approaching with a bit more tasty things to add to his bowl makes him happy to see me, instead of angry.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think your plan sounds good, and definitely less stressful to the dog than being leashed while he eats or being pinned to the ground with food around. You want mealtime to be a positive experience, and you want people approaching while he eats to be positive. This plan will achieve both of those things.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> I think your plan sounds good, and definitely less stressful to the dog than being leashed while he eats or being pinned to the ground with food around. You want mealtime to be a positive experience, and you want people approaching while he eats to be positive. This plan will achieve both of those things.


He was certainly excited when he came in from eating today. He bounded around, ran up to daddy's room and licked him, ran around a bunch with his toy with his tail wagging. So hopefully he was less stressed, and happy about all the delicious stuff he got, as well as eating it in peace. It's cold out, but he doesn't seem to care, he wants to be outside as much as possible anyways, it's always hard to get him to come back in, so I think he's ok.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Kritter said:


> Sounds like a lot of overthinking here to me. The dog sounds young and confused, as well as trapped by the leash. I understand the need to contain him with the raw. Have you considered grinding the food up so he doesn't drag it on the couch? I'm not sure why you would throw other food at him while he's eating, unless I misunderstood what I read. If you are going to hire a trainer you may want one that will come into your house to observe.
> 
> I don't think it's a big deal to feed kibble every now and then, in fact it may switch it up so that you can implement some training techniques, sit-stay-release(to eat). He's probably looking for some guidance honestly, an opinion since these forums are tough to assess the real world situations.


I don't mean to complicate things, and we were just feeding him un-leashed and un-bothered at the start. He was the one that started causing issues that made us change things up to prevent them.... ie/the leashing, or the need to intervene. 

I don't want to grind it, because I think the chewing action is good for him..... gives his jaw some exercise so that he doesn't take it out on our sofa instead. 

The raw food lady said that the kibble and raw digest at different rates, so it's bad for their digestion to feed kibble and then raw without a day of fasting in between....? Not sure how true that is?


----------



## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

That plan sounds good to me. If you are making progress, stick with it!


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Good luck! Keep us updated.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> The raw food lady said that the kibble and raw digest at different rates, so it's bad for their digestion to feed kibble and then raw without a day of fasting in between....? Not sure how true that is?


They do digest at different rates, but most dogs are fine with it. If you think about it, all of the components in kibble (i.e. starch, meat, vegetable) all digest at different rates too. It's not an issue for most dogs that don't have a sensitive tummy.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I don't mean to complicate things, and we were just feeding him un-leashed and un-bothered at the start. He was the one that started causing issues that made us change things up to prevent them.... ie/the leashing, or the need to intervene.
> 
> I don't want to grind it, because I think the chewing action is good for him..... gives his jaw some exercise so that he doesn't take it out on our sofa instead.
> 
> The raw food lady said that the kibble and raw digest at different rates, so it's bad for their digestion to feed kibble and then raw without a day of fasting in between....? Not sure how true that is?


Even if raw and kibble digest at different rates, it wouldn't be much different than a human having a salad one meal and a steak another meal. Unless the specific dog has a sensitive tummy, I haven't heard of raw and kibble being an issue overall. Or, if you want to use high value food but not raw, things like canned sardines or mackeral are yummy and healthy. Cooked or dehydrated boneless meat works too.

If you want to prevent chewing furniture, a combination of plenty of exercise, chew toys and crating will generally take care of that. I have found the black Kong and the super nylabone to be the most durable of the non-edible chew toys.


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> The raw food lady said that the kibble and raw digest at different rates, so it's bad for their digestion to feed kibble and then raw without a day of fasting in between....? Not sure how true that is?


That is one of the raw myths that are just plain silly. Lots of people, myself included, have fed what is called partial raw. One meal of raw and one meal of kibble each day. Zero issues.


To the point, I think your new plan sounds much better. Good luck and just remember it's going to take time and hard work.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

It sounds better than what you're doing. What are you going to do if he goes nuts at you holding the "awful"?

Your raw food lady is either misinformed or full of it. Think about it. If foods digesting at different rates was a problem you couldn't feed the dog a mixture of ANYTHING (e.g. bone and meat together, veggies and meat together, etc.), only a standardized paste kind of a thing. Or...kibble, actually. You could feed kibble if varying rates of digestion was a problem. lol


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

parus said:


> It sounds better than what you're doing, but it still sounds overcomplicated to me. The more moving pieces a plan has, the easier it is to screw up.
> 
> Your raw food lady is either misinformed or full of it. Think about it. If foods digesting at different rates was a problem you couldn't feed the dog a mixture of ANYTHING (e.g. bone and meat together, veggies and meat together, etc.), only a standardized paste kind of a thing. Or...kibble, actually. lol


Well, she does sell the stuff, so of course she'd warn us to never use anything but her product. Good to know that it's a myth.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I don't think people who feed raw are doing any harm to their dogs, but honestly, cooked food was one of the things that allowed humans to develop the brainpower we now have. I'm really not convinced it's some magic lifegiving solution not to cook things. I think a balanced homemade diet is better than kibble, but I'm not sold on the magic power of raw meat, and these people's grandiose claims don't help.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Your plan sounds very good! Remember to be consistent, patient, and take things slowly. You'll get there!


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Sounds like a good plan to me, too. You can do it!


----------



## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I don't mean to complicate things, and we were just feeding him un-leashed and un-bothered at the start. He was the one that started causing issues that made us change things up to prevent them.... ie/the leashing, or the need to intervene.
> 
> I don't want to grind it, because I think the chewing action is good for him..... gives his jaw some exercise so that he doesn't take it out on our sofa instead.
> 
> The raw food lady said that the kibble and raw digest at different rates, so it's bad for their digestion to feed kibble and then raw without a day of fasting in between....? Not sure how true that is?


I feed kibble to my dogs 2 x per week to keep it in rotation in case we need it (vacations, etc.). It does not bother their digestion. I think it depends upon the dog honestly. I have one with an iron stomach and one sensitive girl, but they are both on the same diet, Yay! I am currently switching their kibble with no issues (same brand, different protein). 

I will feed more RMBs once the weather clears, but the grinds are convenient. They get beef trachea and bully sticks for chewing action right now. 

What were the issues that started the leashing?


----------



## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> OK here's my game plan:
> 
> We're going to give him two more weeks of raw, to see how it goes. Instead of tying him up inside, he'll eat outside in the backyard. I'll put him outside before I prepare his dish, so that he has no chance to smell it and do anything, and take it immediately from the fridge and clean all bowls immediately after. We've got this ultra-smelly stuff that we add in, we call it "awful" because it looks/smells awful, but he LOVES it, so half way through his meal, I'll go out, make him sit, and then add the "awful" to his bowl and head back inside. The rest of the time he can eat un-bothred. We'll see how that goes.
> 
> Sound good? And in the meantime, I'll work on low-value object switching and gradually work that up to things of greater value......


I'm sorry, I should have read this post before my previous response, and I should probably read that book just for information. But you may want to consider reading your dog first. Meaning, it's not one size fits all. I wouldn't dream of throwing food to my dog mid-meal. I will read up on the philoshy.


----------



## Cathartica (Feb 12, 2015)

I think the resource guarding is a separate issue that will need to be worked on by people, but he'll never believe you "own" the meat unless he respects you, and it sounds like he doesn't have much respect in general. I do think that hanging out with older dogs would be beneficial. I think as long as your own dog is fully vaccinated he should be safe. I'd be inclined to give it a try. I spent 2 weeks in Greece interacting with feral dog packs, and in my observations, there really is a lot to pack theory. I'd say go with your gut, if you're worried about some of her handling practices, maybe try discussing them with her?


----------



## MazzyGirl (Jan 19, 2015)

I know a few people that feed the raw diet to dogs and it is a god thing, but I don't think it has to be ALL raw. Dogs do digest differently than we do so salmonella isn't as common in dogs since it goes through their systems faster, but they are not immune to the illness if their systems are compromised. I have heard that raw diets can help with moods too, but I don't experience with that one. I made food for my last dogs. I cooked the veggies and added in other ingredients (tomato sauce, unfiltered fish, collard greens, etc...). I can tel you it seemed to make a difference in their overall health.

As far as food protection, remove the dog first is key. When you are feeding your dog, have a leash on your dog while he eats, When he's done, take the leash (make sure it's a long one) and in a friendly tone, call him to go out for a walk. THEN remove the bowl. Don't feed him with your hands if it's not working. it's not in your case. Though the theory does work for some dogs, it seems to only be making him more anxious. If you don't wish or can't use a leash, then if there is a favorite toy, use that to persuade him to leave his empty bowl. When he's done, call him over with the toy in your hand for a good pet and play time. Get him out of the room and when you can, remove the bowl. I usually didn't remove the bowl for my dogs. I just kept it where it was so they knew the area to get the food when it's dinner time.

I did have one dog who was food possessive. She came from a breeder surrounded by many other dogs in her family. She was no alpha dog so she'd often get the short end of the deal among her brothers and sisters. I can understand her need to protect her food. I respected her wishes and at first let m dog eat in another room. Eventually I let my other dog in the same room but far away. They I'd go closer and closer every few days. Eventually, she did learn that my other dog had no interest in her food and had a bowl of her own. She'd let my other dog eat with her and eventually didn't care that everyone was walking around. I did feed her occasionally out of my hand and I'd give her great praise when she did politely. The praise was important so she'd see that getting food from my hand was a good thing and not something to be worried about. But, I didn't want her used to getting food from my hand either so I didn't do it often. It was more about getting her to trust my intentions. Don't force yourself on him during feeding time, because it could cause him more anxiety.

I would also talk to your vet about his aggression issues as sometimes that can be signs of other health concerns causing your dog to act out.


----------

