# Mini-Dachshund just bit someone! Please help!



## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

Our 1-year old puppy mill rescue mini-doxie has had a problem with people and strangers for the past 3 months (yes he was not ALWAYS like this). I've posted about this in the past so please refer there for details.

However today, someone came over, and Otto actually went up to the guest and allowed him to PET him! It was a huge breakthrough! Or so we thought....

Merely seconds later, our guest went to stand up to go to the bathroom (We were sitting down), and Otto LUNGED AND BIT HIM IN THE ARM. He was bleeding, so Otto broke skin. Luckily for us, the guest was easy-going, and the bite wasn't big at all. Regardless, we are all now worried. My parents have just given me the "Otto is a liability" talk, fearing for someone suing us or having to get Otto put down IF this ever happens in the future.

Why would he act this way? He was being pet by the man no less than 1 minute earlier, but then he lunges and bites him as he's getting up to go to the bathroom?

Please help with some insight as to what to do.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I know you've done a lot of work with him. At this point, I'd probably crate him or have him in a separate room when company comes over unless you are confident he won't bite.


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

What about putting him in a muzzle? And again, he only acts this way with one or two people around. If it's a small or big group, he's fine. The trainer said he can't focus in on a specific stimuli with more people.

How does muzzling work? Is it a lifelong management tool, or does the dog eventually give up trying to bite/lunge (The Skinner Box)

I'm just at a loss for words as to his split-second change in temperament?


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Without knowing anything about the dog, I'd guess the bite was the result of the "predator response". Not that the dog is going to turn into a maneater, but that the going away stimulates the chase and bite. One of the most reliable ways to provoke a dog bite is to run away. This is especially true of breeds with high prey drive, and many doxies would fall into that category.

Use a basket muzzle for safety while you work on the problem under the supervision of an experienced trainer. Make sure wearing the muzzle is normalized, and he's not just wearing it when situations are expected. A muzzle can cause the dog to exhibit atypical responses. Dogs can become abnormally aggressive or completely passive when wearing one. That won't help the cause.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

What if you're looking at it from the wrong perspective?

You've worked hard to stop the lunging, barking and the fearful behavior. What if he's accepting guests better but, now to the point of trying to control them...by not letting them leave the room..."keep petting me!"....."don't go away"!

Is this a possiblitiy?


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

Tooney: that's interesting, but this isn't the first person he's acted like this to. He seems fine, but then the minute any movement occurs that doesn't "suit him" he will react. This is just the only case in which he's actually connected with a bite.

I'm truly clueless about what to do. Will a muzzle work? I'm thinking this route because then he can be with us when guests are over, and we will be relaxed knowing he won't harm anyone.



Marsh Muppet said:


> Without knowing anything about the dog, I'd guess the bite was the result of the "predator response". Not that the dog is going to turn into a maneater, but that the going away stimulates the chase and bite. One of the most reliable ways to provoke a dog bite is to run away. This is especially true of breeds with high prey drive, and many doxies would fall into that category.


Run away and getting up to use the restroom are completely different, no? And again, he was being pet by our guest no less than 30 seconds prior to this with no signs of aggression. Then he just snapped and lunged?

And a brief history (if you have not read prior posts): Got him at 3 months, socialized him quickly with humans and people. Was fine until about 6 months (post-neuter), then started getting fear aggressive with people coming into the house. That problem is pretty much solved, but now he is fear-aggressive towards strangers. He sees someone and barks lunges, but does this as he's retreating away from the person


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

The Dogman Commeth said:


> Run away and getting up to use the restroom are completely different, no?


To me? Yeah. But it's what the dog thinks that matters. Or not-thinks, to be more precise. If that's what it is, it's a purely instinctive response. It's why dogs chase cars.

My dog does it with small dogs. He was playing very nicely with my sister-in-law's toy mix, until the other dog started running around. Luckily my dog is a retriever, so the end result of his prey response is to carry the little dog back to me. He scared the bejeebers out of the little pooch (to say nothing of my SIL) but, beyond frayed nerves, there was no harm done.

Tooney may very well be 100% correct, but the prey drive may factor into it as well. Not a thing anyone can say without seeing the dog in action.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well you asked for help and 1st reply was using crate and eliminating problem completely. This buys you time for you to work with dog. You then came back with the muzzle routine wondering if that would work. I understand wanting dog to be in room when guests are present but your parents are already worried about possible lawsuit problems etc. The crate relieves the parent pressure.

Getting up and going to washroom can definitely appear as a retreat or run away to some dogs. You immediately dismissed that so that will not be discussed in the future. With some dogs just pulling hand away from dog can kick in prey instinct.

Again you wanted to know if muzzle will help/work etc. Possibly it could but I doubt it. It could cause more problems than you have now. You used the words fear agressive, putting a muzzle on a dog is not going to help with fear-agressive stuff, it will just stop dog from biting anybody. A scared dog with a muzzle is the same as a man going to a gun fight with a knife. Mentally it's not a secure position for dog or man.

You keep going to the muzzle asking if it will work, well you will have to try it to see if it helps. I'm a crate advisor as this keeps dog out of more trouble.


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

That's really all we want though. We want him to be with everyone, but not bite. I understand it does not help the fear-aggression -- but it helps the biting, which is the problem. Dogs can exhibit any behavior in the world, but if there is no negative consequence to the behavior, it doesn't pose a threat. We just want to eliminate him from harming anyone by biting, that's all.

To Tooney: if what you said was a possible scenario, how do I go about fixing THIS issue?

It's such a bummer because he is a terrific dog. Housetrained, never barks, very obedient, and extremely compassionate. Otto's given me more love than some people in my life! I'll tell you, this dog may be aggressive towards people outside his circle, but Christ do we love him lol. 

I think I would rather try out the muzzle than shove him in a crate for 5-6 hours and have him in misery barking non-stop because he hears that everyone is downstairs.

I am not refuting help I was given, so I hope it doesn't seem that way. If it does, forgive me -- that is not my goal. I am appreciative of all help everyone gives me here, as I am a novice to the owner game, and you are all very experienced, so please do not take it that way.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I haven't used a muzzle, so I can't offer advice there. But this . . .



> And again, he only acts this way with one or two people around. If it's a small or big group, he's fine. The trainer said he can't focus in on a specific stimuli with more people.


This is good. You can have him out with a group and work on things more, and crate him when only one or two people are around.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

TooneyDogs said:


> What if you're looking at it from the wrong perspective?
> 
> You've worked hard to stop the lunging, barking and the fearful behavior. What if he's accepting guests better but, now to the point of trying to control them...by not letting them leave the room..."keep petting me!"....."don't go away"!
> 
> Is this a possiblitiy?


This is a VERY REAL possibility since this is a mill dog he never learned appropriate communication methods and is working purely on instince. He is being raised by a family that may have been more sympathetic, soft oer overly permissive because of his history and permitted or unwittingly encouraged pre-dominant behaviors that have made the doxi feel superior to guests at least if not household members.

You'll need someone versed in dominant behavior to evaluate the dog and instruct you because I can't do it long distance with a few posts. It's much more intricate than that but there are a few points that are universal in training a apprehensive dominant dog (and don't think for a second that a fearful dog can't be dominant). 

First instill a nothing in life is free type programwhere the dog has to earn affection, rewards, love with good passive behavior. Second don't permit the dog on the furniture as it gives him an elevated self image. You need to apply some rank reversal techniques (google it or ask your trainer). Lastly are yousure it's a fear based reaction? Fearful dogs first general response to a threat is look for the nearest escape route. if there is one they will likely take it and not bite a person who is moving in a non-threatening manner away from them. This is more of an anxious behavior where the dog had an opportunity to leave a fearful situation and chose to stay and DEMAND attention and punished the person for getting up and leaving his royal highness with out his express permission. Remember the pack can NEVER leave the alpha but the alpha canleve the pack whenever he wants.

I'm not a big fan of crating dogs as a form of compelling positive behavior. I would rather see you close the dog off inan adjacent room with a baby gate where he can watch you interact with visitors. The reason for this is because in a den situation with wild dogs the ALPHA doles out living space and the ALPHA is the ONLY one who is permitted full roam of the entire den. By gating your dog in a room and restricting his movement in the House (den) then this plays on that natural instinct and will aide your rank reversal. 

Lastly I would not resort to the muzzle because it not help in this instance. It would only go to heighten his anxiety, make him bitter towards those that he had to wear it for and potentially could lead to attacks with out warning because he now can't use his mouth to bear teeth or effectively vocalize. Like other posters said it puts him in a totally different mindset (one of constant state of self defense). Muzzles are last resort training tools when all other options have been exhausted. I've worked with mill dogs and all most want is a firm but fair leader who is going to tell them whats expected and they'll work their little hearts out for you IF you're a confident fair leader and not a soft coddler.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

"The reason for this is because in a den situation with wild dogs the ALPHA doles out living space and the ALPHA is the ONLY one who is permitted full roam of the entire den."

Care to share your source?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Many sources over many years of reading so no I can't state exactly 1. You can find more out about it by doing a google search for den instincts of the wild dog and pack hierarchy. Sorry I can't be more specific.


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

I have already been doing the NILIF for everything, and the same for a room gated off.

He is not dominant -- he knows his place in the home and among the family members, and has not showed any of these signs to us. He also loves my girlfriend and her family.

Do you mean dominant to all OTHER people? He also has no problem with other dogs.

And in terms of large groups: this will be the case for family get-togethers (~20 people will be here for holidays). I don't know if I can trust him with large groups of people INSIDE the house yet -- we haven't had the chance to try it out.

There's so many variables here, and I'm very confused. Both trainers have given similar tips and practices, and I've rigidly implied them. My concern is not with him biting strangers, because the only time he sees them is when we walk, and of course he is leashed. He also sees them at the dog park on weekends, but again, they are large groups, and he has no problems at all. They even pet him and he runs to them!

I hope everyone reading and giving feedback can appreciate the urgency with my posts (and thanks again for replies!)

My concern is with 1-3 people being inside the home, and him lunging/biting.

I realize that I will not be able to have the cliche experience with Otto that most have with their dogs: allowing him to roam free with whomever is around in the house, have him run up to strangers longing for affection, and going to greet all who come near. But I know he was a mill dog, and that NOW, he has a loving home, and he shows the people he cares for the utmost respect, love, and care, and we love him for who he is.

I feel meeting with trainers has reached a stalemate, as they are all unable to pinpoint why he has such quick changes in temperament.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> "The reason for this is because in a den situation with wild dogs the ALPHA doles out living space and the ALPHA is the ONLY one who is permitted full roam of the entire den."
> 
> Care to share your source?


I'm a tad curious about that also.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Guests in the house are YOUR guests....not his. As far as training goes, I would ask the guests to forewarn you when they need to get up....explain that you're working on some training issues. I would step between the dog and the guest...showing him clearly that the guest belongs to you....you set the rules...he doesn't. 

You're body blocking him. Use your hand like a stop sign and maybe a verbal "Uttt".
If he still tries to pursue, stamp your foot, do a sharp handclap...stop him in his tracks. The one key move that you want to see from him is a small step backward...that tells you he got the message.

Even if this is a prey thing...which I don't think it is...the same tactic applies. The prey doesn't belong to him....it's not his to chase and bite.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Very good points TooneyDogs... just to expand on that with a few things... first how long has he been with your family? I have known mill dogs to take their possession and protection of their families to an extreme as a sort of gratitude for getting them out of those hell holes and what he may perceive as a person that needs to be dominated may differ from the actual threat in his mind... that's why he takes it to small groups rather than large ones. Consider large groups like sensory overload... when you get overwhelmed what do you do??? Try to blend in and not draw attention to yourself and just try to be pliable and happy. He will be happy and extroverted on outings... that's not where his issue lays, it's at home and it's incidental person to person with no real reasoning behind it. Dogs are opportunists so they will take all the love and affection and still treat you like shit because they can. Almost like a kid that kills you with kindness to get what they want and then once they get it the get an attitude. He might have a sense of superiority to those that visit because they don't live there, and aren't "formal" pack mates but in his mind tolerated "intruders" because you do. 

If you feel the need to stand with a friend when they get up to move in the house body blocking might be difficult but if your pup is good with their sit/stay then that could also be an option. Distract the dog by getting him working for you, redirecting their attention away from the moving person, and then your friend can do their thing. This should teach him that in instances of discomfort he should look to you for guidence rather than assume and take the action himself uninstructed. If he breaks the sit then by all means go for the body block. Stomping might be overkill as clapping might as well since he's already in an elevated state of anxiety he might take these gestures as "look.. see that stranger got up and mom or dad got upset and made these loud scary noises so it's gotta be him... lets get him" always start corrections with the least assertive methods, commands and such before resorting to more assertive methods like a stomp (which might get him stepped on) or a loud clap that could startle him. Sometimes OVER correcting can be just as damaging as not correcting enough. Usually just advancing into his space would be enough to send him stepping backwards and send the message that you have it under control. Socialize and desensatize by having an onslaught of people stop by briefly over the next couple weeks and watch the change. 

Honestly I would have visitors completely ignore him. Even if he pines to be petted he needs to learn that it is all on their terms not his. He insists for nothing and only gets what he gets out of your good graces. Friends need to impliment that same attitude. I'll pet ya when I'm good and ready and nothing you can do will change that. Hopefully that will help change his mindset of what visitors mean. After a couple weeks desensatizing him to the comings and goings of your visitors then you can start letting them pet him for a brief time and DO NOT let him on the couch for them to pet. He's on the floor and sitting or laying for love. Always have them leave it with him longing for more.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Very good points TooneyDogs... just to expand on that with a few things... first how long has he been with your family? I have known mill dogs to take their possession and protection of their families to an extreme as a sort of gratitude for getting them out of those hell holes and what he may perceive as a person that needs to be dominated may differ from the actual threat in his mind... that's why he takes it to small groups rather than large ones. Consider large groups like sensory overload... when you get overwhelmed what do you do??? Try to blend in and not draw attention to yourself and just try to be pliable and happy. He will be happy and extroverted on outings... that's not where his issue lays, it's at home and it's incidental person to person with no real reasoning behind it. Dogs are opportunists so they will take all the love and affection and still treat you like shit because they can. Almost like a kid that kills you with kindness to get what they want and then once they get it the get an attitude. He might have a sense of superiority to those that visit because they don't live there, and aren't "formal" pack mates but in his mind tolerated "intruders" because you do.
> 
> If you feel the need to stand with a friend when they get up to move in the house body blocking might be difficult but if your pup is good with their sit/stay then that could also be an option. Distract the dog by getting him working for you, redirecting their attention away from the moving person, and then your friend can do their thing. This should teach him that in instances of discomfort he should look to you for guidence rather than assume and take the action himself uninstructed. If he breaks the sit then by all means go for the body block. Stomping might be overkill as clapping might as well since he's already in an elevated state of anxiety he might take these gestures as "look.. see that stranger got up and mom or dad got upset and made these loud scary noises so it's gotta be him... lets get him" always start corrections with the least assertive methods, commands and such before resorting to more assertive methods like a stomp (which might get him stepped on) or a loud clap that could startle him. Sometimes OVER correcting can be just as damaging as not correcting enough. Usually just advancing into his space would be enough to send him stepping backwards and send the message that you have it under control. Socialize and desensatize by having an onslaught of people stop by briefly over the next couple weeks and watch the change.
> 
> Honestly I would have visitors completely ignore him. Even if he pines to be petted he needs to learn that it is all on their terms not his. He insists for nothing and only gets what he gets out of your good graces. Friends need to impliment that same attitude. I'll pet ya when I'm good and ready and nothing you can do will change that. Hopefully that will help change his mindset of what visitors mean. After a couple weeks desensatizing him to the comings and goings of your visitors then you can start letting them pet him for a brief time and DO NOT let him on the couch for them to pet. He's on the floor and sitting or laying for love. Always have them leave it with him longing for more.


I like this reply, definitely some stuff to try, only problem I see is getting the people to cooperate may be harder than training the dog.


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Very good points TooneyDogs... just to expand on that with a few things... first how long has he been with your family? I have known mill dogs to take their possession and protection of their families to an extreme as a sort of gratitude for getting them out of those hell holes and what he may perceive as a person that needs to be dominated may differ from the actual threat in his mind... that's why he takes it to small groups rather than large ones. Consider large groups like sensory overload... when you get overwhelmed what do you do??? Try to blend in and not draw attention to yourself and just try to be pliable and happy. He will be happy and extroverted on outings... that's not where his issue lays, it's at home and it's incidental person to person with no real reasoning behind it. Dogs are opportunists so they will take all the love and affection and still treat you like shit because they can. Almost like a kid that kills you with kindness to get what they want and then once they get it the get an attitude. He might have a sense of superiority to those that visit because they don't live there, and aren't "formal" pack mates but in his mind tolerated "intruders" because you do.
> 
> If you feel the need to stand with a friend when they get up to move in the house body blocking might be difficult but if your pup is good with their sit/stay then that could also be an option. Distract the dog by getting him working for you, redirecting their attention away from the moving person, and then your friend can do their thing. This should teach him that in instances of discomfort he should look to you for guidence rather than assume and take the action himself uninstructed. If he breaks the sit then by all means go for the body block. Stomping might be overkill as clapping might as well since he's already in an elevated state of anxiety he might take these gestures as "look.. see that stranger got up and mom or dad got upset and made these loud scary noises so it's gotta be him... lets get him" always start corrections with the least assertive methods, commands and such before resorting to more assertive methods like a stomp (which might get him stepped on) or a loud clap that could startle him. Sometimes OVER correcting can be just as damaging as not correcting enough. Usually just advancing into his space would be enough to send him stepping backwards and send the message that you have it under control. Socialize and desensatize by having an onslaught of people stop by briefly over the next couple weeks and watch the change.
> 
> Honestly I would have visitors completely ignore him. Even if he pines to be petted he needs to learn that it is all on their terms not his. He insists for nothing and only gets what he gets out of your good graces. Friends need to impliment that same attitude. I'll pet ya when I'm good and ready and nothing you can do will change that. Hopefully that will help change his mindset of what visitors mean. After a couple weeks desensatizing him to the comings and goings of your visitors then you can start letting them pet him for a brief time and DO NOT let him on the couch for them to pet. He's on the floor and sitting or laying for love. Always have them leave it with him longing for more.


Thanks for the reply dog_shrink! We've had him for 8 months, and the behavior you mentioned about him being protective of us due to his mill past is definitely something we thought of.

I do tell all guests to ignore him, but once he gets comfortable with the guest being in the house (usually after about 5 minutes), he begins to walk past the guest as if he/she is not even there. It isn't even a problem anymore...

HOWEVER, Otto then starts to go up on the person's leg and lick their hands, which would illicit a pet from the guest (I would do the same thing -- I would think the dog is trying to show me some love). And that is when he snaps. The guest pets him, and he goes into his usual growl/bark/lunge.

His signs are very confusing to us and guests alike. And he was not always like this, which is another thing I do not understand. We socialized him immediately (although I realize at 3 months may be too late, that is when we got him), and he was terrific. He used to come up to new guests as they entered and loved being with people. Then at 6 months, some switch flipped and I don't know why. Nothing changed, no environmental or routine changes, so we're all very perplexed.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dogman
One last reply and then I'm gone. I understand you're confused, perplexed etc with switches (as you say and a good description) flipping. I don't care if you're perplexed, neither does the dog care. If you're looking for a black/white for sure answer/cure to your dog's problem, it's not gonna happen. I know you're young and most young people have not developed handling the gray areas in life.

Short story, 7, 7 week old puppies each in their own kennel run and every day you could go out and in front of these puppies drop an empty pan on concrete floor 20 days in a row. On the 21st day you drop that pan and one of the puppies retreats, runs to back of kennel run squalling/squealing in fear. What happened? Who cares? Now if possible it's got to be fixed. 

You keep going to the facts that nothing has changed in your pup's life. Guess what, something has, that ship has sailed. Now it's got to be fixed if possible. People here are throwing ideas at you for possible fixes, things that you can try. A pup is not like a car that has a dead battery or a broken windshield wiper, you replace each and car is good. Your pup is a living breathing creature with strong points, weak points and more important changing constantly points. 

Good luck with pup and I will leave thread so others may add more ideas to help with problem.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

wvasko said:


> A pup is not like a car that has a dead battery or a broken windshieled wiper, you replace each and car is good. Your pup is a living breathing creature with strong points, weak points and more important changing constantly points.


That sounds like as good a last word as any I can think of.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

It sounds to me like your dog has a low stimulation threshold. Too much gets to be too much quickly when he is greeted/petted etc or there is a sudden movement. It could be the larger group situation is causing a bit of a shutdown, so the appearance is that he's "good" but he's simply zoned out some.

So, some thoughts:
Have you had him checked for hypothyroidism and for back pain? Thyroid issues can increase anxiety, resource guarding and aggression. The testing should be a 6 panel test not the typical T4 and more than one low normal to low result should be treated with synthroid. Same goes for pain issues, and doxies are commonly sufferers of intervertebral disk disease.

You have now identified some triggers: movement, a certain number of people, licking and nudging of guests etc. Management is key here. If you cannot trust the humans to NOT PET THE DOG then dog should be behind a gate, in his crate or sent to his "bed" to hang out with something to keep him busy. End of story. It is your responsibility to ensure he AND your guests are safe and comfortable. That you WANT a social and safe dog is a non issue, if he's uncomfortable he's uncomfortable.

I also agree with NILIF as it gives a dog a sense of stability and routine. But the whole den/pack/alpha thing is just bad science. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=aa0f118e939e7d1ba875d62844b1e95d

Puppy mill dogs have little or no social skills starting out, and are NOT bred for temperament. They spend their first months stuck in a cage with no human handling and their only company is usually the dogs in the other cages. Overwhelm in the world is a common state for them.

Manage the dog's behaviour. Each time you put him in the position to practice the behaviour you are putting his LIFE AT RISK. Then use cc and oc to change it. Check out www.fearfuldogs.com for tips on how to do this. But get the vet check first.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Cracker said:


> You have now identified some triggers: movement, a certain number of people, licking and nudging of guests etc. Management is key here. If you cannot trust the humans to NOT PET THE DOG then dog should be behind a gate, in his crate or sent to his "bed" to hang out with something to keep him busy. End of story. It is your responsibility to ensure he AND your guests are safe and comfortable. That *you WANT *a social and safe dog is a non issue, if he's uncomfortable he's uncomfortable.


This is well put. Here is the thing. If you want a social butterfly and safe to be around dog for guests, you may need a different dog. 

This dog has not had the best start in life. Essentially, if you continue to force the issue you will, without a doubt, end up with another bite. This time it could be someone's face or serious damage to someone's had. Your parents are correct in discussing with you the liability issue. Your dog, love him or not, is now a liability. He bit someone and broke skin. 

Forcing social interaction with a muzzle is asking for the dog to escalate his behavior with the muzzle off AND it is going to add to his anxiety with the muzzle on.. he may even resort to a replacement behavior like peeing submissively or some other behavior that is highly undesirable like self mutilation. 



Cracker said:


> Manage the dog's behaviour. Each time you put him in the position to practice the behaviour you are putting his LIFE AT RISK. Then use cc and oc to change it. Check out www.fearfuldogs.com for tips on how to do this. But get the vet check first.


Yes to all of this.

Honestly, if the choice is the dog in a crate in another part of the house howling for a few hours as opposed to being PTS because he hurt someone, then howling is the better option. 

Considering the above, how often do you have guests over? How often would this crating need to happen? Seems a small price compared to the rest. Why risk it? 

Yes, you MAY be able to train the dog eventually. You may not. I do not know the dog or your training skills having seen neither.

You may need to accept that you will not get what YOU want on this one.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Cracker said:


> Puppy mill dogs have little or no social skills starting out, and are NOT bred for temperament.


Dogs are not terribly complex creatures, but they are quite a bit more than I/O devices. Whatever may be causing the behavior, I have no doubt that poor socialization and temperament are factors.

Different people can see the same behavior and assign different names to the cause. Some will call it a "dominance issue", some will call it a "predator response". You may call it "fear of abandonment" or even "possessiveness". Go ahead and call it a "butterscotch sundae" if you like.

Basically the fix is the same. The dog needs to learn appropriate social behavior, and needs to be redirected from inappropriate ones. It usually matters less how you effect these changes, than the timing of your interventions. Use treats or _appropriate_ physical corrections (I'm including Tooney's body blocking as a physical correction) to redirect, but use them when they will do some good--i.e., before the undesirable behavior occurs. Nothing you can do can cause the dog to un-bite someone.

I'd also keep her out of large crowds until you get a better handle on this. The next "switch" may get "thrown" while walking in a large gathering of unsuspecting ankles.

PS: as others have pointed out, some dogs can never be fixed. Managing a determined biter may be an option for some people, but (s)he who has the financial stake to protect gets to make the decision.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Petting for some dogs isn't really appreciated or enjoyed....think of it as man-hugs.
A quick hug is fine but, embraced too long and discomfort sets in. 

For some dogs there is a line/timelimit between petting and what is seen as an attempt to dominate. Otto might have that short, manhug syndrome.


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

Many thanks for all of the responses guys. I really appreciate everything!

A lot to answer here, since many posts have been put up since I last checked!



Elana55 said:


> This is well put. Here is the thing. If you want a social butterfly and safe to be around dog for guests, you may need a different dog.
> 
> This dog has not had the best start in life. Essentially, if you continue to force the issue you will, without a doubt, end up with another bite. This time it could be someone's face or serious damage to someone's had. Your parents are correct in discussing with you the liability issue. Your dog, love him or not, is now a liability. He bit someone and broke skin.
> 
> ...


Guests are over seldom -- for major holidays (Thanksgiving, Easter, Christmas, Grad party for me, etc). A few times per year. However, random guests come by sometimes -- just one person, and this is where the main problem lies.

I want to hit on the fact that I am not trying to mold Otto into "what I WANT". I never said that. I said I knew he came from a tough area, and that me and my family love him FOR WHO HE IS, INCLUDING BEHAVIOR. We're just now trying to asses the best manner in which to MANAGE his behavior, that's all.

Elana: I never said I wanted a different dog, or a "social butterfly" dog. We love Otto, again, for who he is, and we don't want anyone else! We will asses how to manage him effectively from here out.

I also have noticed he's prone to act this way towards males more.

Also, has this anything to do with environment? He only acts this way in our home. I bring him to my girlfriend's house every weekend, where she has visitors frequently, and there's never an issue there.

I'm getting from this thread that the best scenario is to gate him when guests are over. OR, since he is comfortable within 5 minutes when a guest is over (singular guest, not a big group), just instructing the guest to ignore him totally. He has gone numerous visits where a buddy of mine has come over, and he has done perfectly well.

Should I even bother to see how he acts with a bigger group over the house? Or don't even bother for safety?

Thanks a million again for everyone's responses and care!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I would not bother with the big group. You just cannot watch the dog and the people. Safe better than sorry. 

Good luck with your people training program (ignoring the dog). I have tried this training program and it has had mixed results. I even PAID ppl to act a certain way to help train my dog.. *sigh* It is easier to train dogs. 

I did not mean you wanted a different dog.. I mean if you want a particular behavior it may have to come packaged in a different dog. Most ppl do not want to swap the dog out.. if they did they would not come here asking questions. 

And I was doing fine with all this until Tooney dog brought up the lingering man hugs image.  Those images need to wait until at least Thursday to be presented.. I mean this is ONLY Monday...


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

Agreed!

I just want Otto to be in a room with someone and Not draw blood! I think he can do it. I know it will take work and patience but when I feel frustrated I just remember that it could be worse...he is in a home that keeps him healthy and safe. 

I need to remind myself that we didn't only get him for our satisfaction. 

I will continue training him for the one on on encounters in the home. He is doing well. If I just keep an eye on him and stop any possible snap before it starts it will be ok?

I just feel like a bad owner if I choose to just MANAGE the issue as opposed to continuing to try different methods to correct it. 

Is this type of behavior typical of mill-raised dogs?


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Good luck with your people training program (ignoring the dog). I have tried this training program and it has had mixed results. I even PAID ppl to act a certain way to help train my dog.. *sigh* It is easier to train dogs.


I've never understood this. I've asked wonderfully intelligent people to help me work with a dog. All they had to do was follow very specific and and simple instructions (e.g., stand here, don't look at the dog, and turn and walk to your left when we pass you), and they couldn't do it. They talk to the dog, they ad lib, and they improvise, but they never follow instructions.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

The Dogman Commeth said:


> Agreed!
> 
> I just want Otto to be in a room with someone and Not draw blood! I think he can do it. I know it will take work and patience but when I feel frustrated I just remember that it could be worse...he is in a home that keeps him healthy and safe.
> 
> ...


It CAN be typical behaviour of mill dogs but many have been rehabilitated,_ in their own time_. You are not a bad owner by managing the behaviours..this is being responsible for him and everyone's safety and well being. *You have a great attitude.*..the first key to rehab IS management...the training is done at first in very small doses but it is prevention of the behaviour occurring that makes the biggest difference. 

Teaching him better social skills will take time and patience and working at his speed. 

Good luck.


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## The Dogman Commeth (Jan 30, 2009)

Thank you, Cracker.

But what did you mean by they have been rehabilitated "on their own time?"


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

What I meant Dogman, is that rehabilitation takes time and that us humans can sometimes push the dog more than they are ready to be pushed. It has to be careful increasing of stressors so that you don't push the dog over threshold, creating the reaction (the biting)...so you have to learn where his threshold is, condition him at just under threshold and then gradually move forward. He will make progress, then seem to regress then make progress again. The timeline needs to be flexible.


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## ValtheAussie (Apr 19, 2009)

I had an Aussie for 14 years who needed to be crated whenever we had company because she would try to nip or herd the guests. We just got used to crating her and it worked out fine.


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

I have a mill doxie with the opposite problem. She was fine with everybody, but she would bite me like there was no tomorrow. And these were breaking the skin bites, from a 4month old puppy. Not play, full on attacks. We're good now, and she actually prefers my company over my husbands, which I never thought would happen. Kudos to you for working with your boy. Keep it up. You may have to keep him tethered to you or in a crate when company is around, but it could be sooo much worse. 
I don't know your dog, but I've tried rescue remedy with my little one, bc she gets way too excited when I'm having ppl over, and it takes the edge off her. She's not knocked out or dopey, just slightly calmer. My dog is anxious, I don't know if your dog is or not, but something to think about.


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