# please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail



## tallmom11 (Aug 19, 2010)

I have asked about this before and have been scouring the internet, I am going to call around to some vets tomorrow, but if anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
I am getting a puppy from a good breeder, she health tests, has been breeding for a long time, she raises the puppies in her home. The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)
One of the puppies in a litter of five was born without a tail. she has everything else in working order and the breeder has not seen this before. The vet she works with says the puppy seems fine. I am totally fine with the no tail if that is the only problem. Are there other problems associated with this? The breeder is a few hours away, we are going next week to see the dogs and make our final decision between this one, or her sister. thanks, guys


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

tallmom11 said:


> I have asked about this before and have been scouring the internet, I am going to call around to some vets tomorrow, but if anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
> I am getting a puppy from a good breeder, she health tests, has been breeding for a long time, she raises the puppies in her home. The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)


Sorry - going to comment on the mix. If you 'know' then why on earth are you supporting mutt breeding?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

tallmom11 said:


> I have asked about this before and have been scouring the internet, I am going to call around to some vets tomorrow, but if anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
> I am getting a puppy from a good breeder, she health tests, has been breeding for a long time, she raises the puppies in her home. The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)
> One of the puppies in a litter of five was born without a tail. she has everything else in working order and the breeder has not seen this before. The vet she works with says the puppy seems fine. I am totally fine with the no tail if that is the only problem. Are there other problems associated with this? The breeder is a few hours away, we are going next week to see the dogs and make our final decision between this one, or her sister. thanks, guys


Natural bob tails happen in many breeds. With a mixed breed you never know what is going to pop up. In my breed, natural bob tails are common and I've never heard of it causing any problems. There's some thought that you wouldn't want to breed too many generations of NBT together, as it is a shortening of the spinal column. Even that has been partially disproven in Aussies, though it's a fact in Manx cats (but apparently not other bob tail cat breeds)


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)


Since you yourself brought it, what would make you think you can pre-screen the types of opinions you're going to get on an open forum?


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## tallmom11 (Aug 19, 2010)

sigh. nevermind. I put the parent breeds in because if I didn't, people would ask for more info. And everything else I have researched the answers come back "this is normal in Corgis" It's not a corgi. I just wanted the health answer, not a lecture. I searched and searched and ended up finding a mix of dog that would be generally sweet, good with kids, and shed less. If anyone wants to answer the original question, that would be appreciated.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Somebody already did, in post #3.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RonE said:


> Since you yourself brought it, what would make you think you can pre-screen the types of opinions you're going to get on an open forum?


perhaps s/he is hoping that people answer her question and not question her ethics? Probably not going to happen, of course. I'm not a fan of designer "breeds", but as they go, there are some Golden/Poodle breeders who DO health test, have a national organization and a breeder's code of ethics. If that's the sort of dog people want to own, it's really not my business to make judgements about their choice. All breeds started out as mixes. 60 years ago, my breed was a mish/mash landrace of herding breeds. Herr Doberman intentionally mixed breeds to get what he wanted. So did Captain Von Stephanitz. So did the founders of many of our current breeds.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I will toss this out there for consideration....

..in kittens that are born with out tails, there are somtimes no bowel sphincter control. Someone here found a kitten and was bottle raising it and it ended up being PTS due to the lack of tail being part of the bowel problem. I do not know if that happens in dogs born without tails but it does in cats. 

I would talk to your vet before taking the puppy. I find it interesting that most "breeders" of designer breeds will tell you the vet passed all their dogs but they never give specific answers to specific questions. In this case the question is, "Does the puppy born without a tail have a possibility of other congenital defects?" If they cannot answer that question with a specific answer and more information.. then move on.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> I will toss this out there for consideration....
> 
> ..in kittens that are born with out tails, there are somtimes no bowel sphincter control. Someone here found a kitten and was bottle raising it and it ended up being PTS due to the lack of tail being part of the bowel problem. I do not know if that happens in dogs born without tails but it does in cats.
> 
> I would talk to your vet before taking the puppy. I find it interesting that most "breeders" of designer breeds will tell you the vet passed all their dogs but they never give specific answers to specific questions. In this case the question is, "Does the puppy born without a tail have a possibility of other congenital defects?" If they cannot answer that question with a specific answer and more information.. then move on.


I'm guessing it is not a subject most vets have studied extensively. I have a friend who is a very good breeder of DDB (one of her bitches was BOS at Westminster) who has produced a few natural bobtails. Other than the fact that they were "pet quality" due to lack of tail, they've seen no problems. Here's a link that should provide you with some research and information on NBTs in dogs by people who have actually made a study of it: http://www.imgnr.com/nbt_study.htm


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I would be wary of a breeder who is asking you to do this research instead of doing it herself. As Pawz pointed out, it's not going to be a subject everyone knows about, but it also is not your responsibility to figure it out. _Her _litter threw a pup with no tail..._she _needs to figure out what that means for the pup, for her breeding program, and for you.


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## tallmom11 (Aug 19, 2010)

she didn't ask me to do it, I am just trying to make an informed decision. She has never seen this before and is evaluating the pairing. the dog has been checked by a vet twice already at 5 weeks.He hasn't seen any major problems. A lot of articles talk about no tail paired with no anus, and that isn't the case here, she potties just fine. Perhaps i will see if she can do an Xray to check the spine. The puppy doesn't just have a short, bob tail, it seems to have no tail. And yes, I really don't want to argue, I just wanted to know if this puppy can live a happy, healthy life with this birth defect, or not.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I have friends who bought a lab puppy with a stumpy tail (half the regular length) that has had no issues...that being said, since this pup is completely tailless I would certainly be asking for the breeder to have the pup xrayed to ensure there are not further abnormalities in the spine/hips and pelvis. I would also consider asking for an amendment to the health guarantee (assuming she has one) so that if something else comes up later due to this issue she can help with financial assistance for veterinary care. If not, I would seriously consider not getting the pup.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

When you say she health tests, what tests do you mean? 

I agree with Cracker -- the breeder should pay for x-rays to make sure there are no abnormalities and should modify your health guarantee. Even with this, though... if I were you, I'd probably wait for the next litter and get a pup with a tail. I don't like to gamble like that.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

FilleBelle said:


> I would be wary of a breeder who is asking you to do this research instead of doing it herself. As Pawz pointed out, it's not going to be a subject everyone knows about, but it also is not your responsibility to figure it out. _Her _litter threw a pup with no tail..._she _needs to figure out what that means for the pup, for her breeding program, and for you.


Shrug. I would say that it means there is a NBT gene somewhere behind one of the parent dogs. I've never seen it in goldens, but since poodles are commonly docked it may be hiding in there. I'm not sure the breeder asked her to do any research.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

tallmom11 said:


> .He hasn't seen any major problems.


Does this mean he saw some minor problems? The only dog that I knew personally that was born without a tail had to be put to sleep because of bowel problems. I have known several that were born with bob tails. The bobtails had no issues other then short tails. I don't know exactly what the "breeder" is thinking but personally, I wouldn't pay for this dog. If she was trying to find the pup a good home and she checked you out to be that home, give it a try.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

No idea. No idea why you would make the same thread twice, stating the same thing about the mix requesting no comments as well. If this person is not willing to x-ray and explore further I would not get the dog. I at the very least wouldn't pay what I can only imagine they're asking for it.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> No idea. No idea why you would make the same thread twice, stating the same thing about the mix requesting no comments as well. If this person is not willing to x-ray and explore further I would not get the dog. I at the very least wouldn't pay what I can only imagine they're asking for it.


Totally agree with this.

Also, I want to add that they might not see any problems now, but what happens 6 months down the road and your puppy is still not potty trained because he/she has no control? Or maybe it's fine until he/she is 5 years old and then loses control of their bowel movements? 

I guess the question is, are you prepared to take care of a fecally incontinent dog for the rest of its life? The breeder wouldn't be able to tell if they puppy is "in control" of himself because it's unlikely they are potty training (I don't consider paper training the same as potty training to be in control inside a house). Puppies just go where they need to go.

I would pass on the litter and on the breeder. Go find a breeder who does the proper health tests and is aware of the possible genes their lines might throw. A good breeder not only knows grand parents and great grandparents, but can go back 10, 15, or even 20 generations and tell you what sort of issues have popped up in the lines.


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## Dog101 (Jan 18, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> Sorry - going to comment on the mix. If you 'know' then why on earth are you supporting mutt breeding?


Hey yo Loki Love are u tellin us that you think mutts r inpure and should be eliminated. I had a mutt and he was the best dog ever. The combo is a tad weird but that's nature.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Dog101 said:


> Hey yo Loki Love are u tellin us that you think mutts r inpure and should be eliminated. I had a mutt and he was the best dog ever. The combo is a tad weird but that's nature.


Dog101...mutts that happen from accidents are a different subject from 'designer breeds'..so no Loki is not saying they are impure or need to be eliminated. Irresponsible breeding/breeding for profit needs to be eliminated.

Back to the subject at hand:
What does your breeder say about xrays? No one can guarantee this pup will live a normal life..but then there are really no guarantees even with a healthy pup. If you are concerned about long term finances and the long term abilities of the dog to have a good life..well, that's up to you to decide what is a reasonable risk for you.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Dog101 said:


> Hey yo Loki Love are u tellin us that you think mutts r inpure and should be eliminated. I had a mutt and he was the best dog ever. The combo is a tad weird but that's nature.


LOL - nope. Nice try though


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## Dog101 (Jan 18, 2011)

Sorry Loki Love just a little sad about my dog nothing personal.


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## JessCowgirl88 (Mar 15, 2011)

if it bugs you this much i would say dont do it. i know my vet gives breeders vet check papers showing they are in good health, no problems things like that. If it was me, i would say i want proof ._. mostly is something like this would be bugging me alot.

but in the end its all up to you.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Dog101 said:


> Hey yo Loki Love are u tellin us that you think mutts r inpure and should be eliminated. I had a mutt and he was the best dog ever. The combo is a tad weird but that's nature.


If you were to take a minute and click around you'd find most of us have mutts. I have two and a foster.


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## Dog101 (Jan 18, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> LOL - nope. Nice try though


 Sorry Loki just sad about my dog.Nothing personal.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm wondering if the defect would have something to do with the huge size difference between the dogs. I mean, a Golden and a Standard Poodle, no problem, _maybe_ a Golden and a Miniature Poodle, but a Golden (I assume about 50 pounds if she's on the small side) and a TOY Poodle (under 10 pounds usually)? I dunno, seems like it might cause some issues.

If the breeder won't pay for the x-rays and vet evaluation, I think I'd pass.


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## JessCowgirl88 (Mar 15, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'm wondering if the defect would have something to do with the huge size difference between the dogs. I mean, a Golden and a Standard Poodle, no problem, _maybe_ a Golden and a Miniature Poodle, but a Golden (I assume about 50 pounds if she's on the small side) and a TOY Poodle (under 10 pounds usually)? I dunno, seems like it might cause some issues.
> 
> If the breeder won't pay for the x-rays and vet eveluation, I think I'd pass.


^^ i agree with this ._. reminds me of a puppy i saw on petfinder it was a pittbull/chiuaua ._.


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## tallmom11 (Aug 19, 2010)

I REALLY just wanted the tail question answered(which didn't happen last time I asked), not to go into every detail of this specific situation, nor to hear the same arguments rehashed. So I appreciate those who have been helpful. The dog exists, it needs a home, just deciding if it should be mine or not. I will ask about the Xrays, but I am leaning towards not taking this tailless puppy. And maybe never coming back to dogforums... sheesh.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I would be cautious about idle threats to leave the forum. No one is really moved by them. I find it pretty.. lacking to post "Please don't comment on this." while putting the information out there on an open forum. Information that is known to be a hot topic, AND post it in such a way that you KNOW before posting it that it's going to cause an issue. AND post TWO separate threads about it, requesting for no comments in relation to the dog.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

It's a forum, discussions happen. That's what a forum is.

I would not pay a breeder for a puppy with such a defect, especially one with unknown future consequences.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Buying a puppy just because it needs a home is how bad breeders and bad breeding practices still exist.


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## Dog101 (Jan 18, 2011)

Can we just forget about arguments and answer the ? I think the X-rays would be a good idea but pembrook corgis have no tails and their fine.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I would pass on this puppy because if you are anything like I am, you get a dog and you love the dog. If the puppy does not work out (has no bowel control, for instance), and you have to PTS, that is going to just be the pits. 

If the puppy is "free" (I have six "free" cats.. and I can tell you that there is no such thing as a 'free' animal) and the vet will do xrays to ascertain there is no further deformity of spine etc. and you are willing to take the risk, then go ahead. 

There are breeds of dogs that have very short tails but the two breeds here are not those breeds!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree with Cracker... ask the breeder to have the puppy x-rayed and make an amendment to the health guarantee. Otherwise, I would pass.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Dog101 said:


> Can we just forget about arguments and answer the ? I think the X-rays would be a good idea but pembrook corgis have no tails and their fine.


The question HAS been answered. And it was even specifically stated that neither of these two breeds are Corgi's nor breeds that are tailless. Two dogs throwing a tailless dog needs to be explored and could quite potentially have fatal consequences.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Why are you so set on this particular puppy? Wouldn't it be easier and safer to just wait for the next litter? Are there any other available pups in this litter? 

You keep asking us to answer the question. Many people _have_ answered the question. You just don't seem to like the answer. If you want the dog that badly, just get it. Make sure you save up a lot of money in case of medical bills.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Shrug. I would say that it means there is a NBT gene somewhere behind one of the parent dogs. I've never seen it in goldens, but since poodles are commonly docked it may be hiding in there. I'm not sure the breeder asked her to do any research.


It is very easy for you to say why this might have happened, so why was the _breeder _not able to articulate this information to the OP? Why si the OP asking if there might be ill effects of the missing tail, instead of exploring the health of the pup with the pup's breeder? The fact that the breeder is allowing the OP to "go it alone" and make a decision based on so little information says to me that this is not a breeder to whom I'd want to give my money.


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## Dog101 (Jan 18, 2011)

If you don't take the pup it might end up not being treated properly.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Dog101 said:


> If you don't take the pup it might end up not being treated properly.


So do you think the OP should buy every unwanted pup in the world, and maybe adopt every shelter dog and take in every stray?

Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

I know someone with two miniature poodles that have no tail, they aren't bob tailed they actually don't have tails. They are from a puppy mill (same litter) though so I just assumed it had something to do with that. They don't have any problems, the dogs are now in their teen and as far as I know have never had any issues with having no tail.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Dog101 said:


> If you don't take the pup it might end up not being treated properly.


Yes sir I'm ready to order. I'll take a puppy and a side of guilt please.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

I feel so ill-informed. Are designer breeds basically mutts intentionally bred? Like this one maybe bred to be smaller and not shed? 

*snuggles my mutt* designed to be a pain in the butt.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lisak_87 said:


> I feel so ill-informed. Are designer breeds basically mutts intentionally bred?


Yes. (10 characters)


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