# Switch from raw to kibble



## goffredo

Hi,

My 13-week old Ridgeback pup was raised on a frozen / ground raw food diet, sourced from a small local feed company. When I got him at 8 weeks, I decided to keep feeding him the same raw food. He's my first dog and I figured I'd give it a try because I want the best for him.

Well, 5 weeks into it, and I'm at my wits' end. I'll settle for second or third best. My freezer has 75 pounds of frozen raw meat in it -- a one month supply -- and not much room for my own food. Then there's an entire shelf in my fridge where I have about 10 pounds of raw ground meat mixture thawing out, and I'm scared to death I'm going to accidentally contaminate some human food. My hands are dry and cracking from the constant hot water washing and sterilizing of my counters, sink, feeding area, bowls, and whatever else might happen to get blood or guts splashed on it. I'm a total germ-o-phobe, so my anxiety level is through the roof with all this raw meat slopping around 4x a day.

Also, dealing with raw meat is not compatible with my long-term goals of camping with my dog: I'm not about to pack raw meat into the Sierras, because I'm allergic to yellowjacket stings, and the space in my bear can is quite limited. For day-trips and road-trips, having to pack a cooler with ice and dog food ... it's all just too much for me. I admire people who can pull this off, but I'm throwing in the towel.

Rather serendipitously, I received a coupon pack in the mail for Canidae food yesterday, so I'm thinking of making the transition to that once my month's shipment of raw food runs out. 

Just curious if anyone has ever transitioned from raw to kibble. From what I've read here, most people are trying to go the other way.


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## Losech

There's nothing wrong about not being able to do raw anymore. A lot of people demonize going back to kibble, let alone never even trying raw, but really, it's entirely up to you what you feed your dog. Whither it be you can't handle the thought of the germs, it takes too much time, or just don't want to do it, just remember that your dog is _your_ dog, not mine, not anybody else's, and you do not have to do what folks on the internets tell you or feel bad or apologize for not feeding him a certain way.

Anywho, there's not much to it really. You can mix the kibble in with the raw and go for a gradual switch over several days, or you can go cold turkey. All three of my dogs handle an instant switch between kibble and raw just fine, but they regularly get a variety of types of food anyways so they are used to it. Just go with whatever you feel is best for your pup. If he shows signs of digestive distress with a sudden switch, back off and ease him into it instead. Maybe add in a probiotic (I get a human-grade kind from the grocery that has more than 3 strains in it, shelf-stable type) and/or a prebiotic (ground chicory root is what I use, get it at an herb shop) to help the process along. 

I haven't fed Canidae so I do not have an opinion on it yet. I'll be getting some cans in the mail soon though, so at least I'll be able to try that and see how it goes.


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## zhaor

I know there's people here that rotated everything, so that includes going from raw to kibble or canned etc. I take kibble for camping too.

For a large dog like a ridgeback, I would imagine you'd need a lot of freezer space but really you can probably still get by at just around 40-50 lb. A lot of raw feeders get a separate crate freezer. It's not only better for space but they're also better at freezing than refrigerator freezers, more consistent temperature, lower temperature, less nutrient deterioration etc. It could be something to look into if you want and they're not super expensive. I think my parent's freezer costs about $150-200.

In terms of germs, I kind of wonder if you're overreacting a bit. I'm not that OCD about germs I guess. I'm not sure how you're doing things but since I do homemade raw, I separate things out into individual portions. I use a scale and measure out pretty much daily portion sizes in small tupperware containers. Label them, then freeze it all. Takes about an hour to prepare a month's worth of food and everyday it's a simple matter of moving one tupperware from the freezer to the fridge or just thawing it out on the counter. There's really no mess other than the initial preparation. Even then it's only a cutting board and really no different than cooking and preparing raw meat which I do pretty much everyday when I make dinner. I'm not really sure what type of contamination you're worried about.

Anyways for the question of going from raw to kibble, I don't see why it'd be a problem.


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## PackMomma

Sorry to hear about your frustration with raw feeding, but I'm with Losech here in that it is your dog and you shouldn't feel guilty about doing something you're just not all that prepared to handle. I've found it got much easier as I got used to it, but everyone is different. I feed two dogs, a 50lb and 20lb.. and everything works out fine for me, but I'm not OCD or a germophobe in the slightest. I butcher all my own meat for human consumption (its cheaper this way) so it's really no different handling meat for the dogs. I also feed the majority of their meals outside so cleaning in the house constantly does not become an issue. Once a month I do a big 'butcher' day. I butcher dog meat and human meat and I vaccuum seal human meat and freezer bag the dogs meat into daily feeding portions and take it out the thaw each day in the sealed bags. This way it does not contaminate anything in the refridgerator, but I do usually still place it all in a plastic grocery bag just incase. Freezer space can most definitely become an issue. I've had to purchase a separate one for dog food, but for some this isn't feasible. 

I also camp and hike with my dogs in the summer on a regular basis, I could see this being a problem for tenting, but I guess I am fortunate in that I have an RV with a fridge. However back when we still tented, I would just bring kibble for camping - certainly won't kill them for a couple days. Some raw feeders will do a gorge feeding before camping trips, which means they will not feed the dog for a day or two, and then the day before the trip they'll feed the dog double or triple its daily portion and then the dog actually can get by just fine a couple days without food. Most people think this is cruel though, but in fact it is not, they certainly will not starve.

As far as adjusting from raw to kibble.. you can most certainly try mixing kibble into the raw, but I will caution you on this. This has been an ongoing debate wether or not mixing raw food with dry food is safe or not, but I'm going to tell you I've witnessed myself some very negative results of my dogs accidentally getting into some kibble before they were fed a raw meal. The nastiest waterhose diarrhea I've ever seen i'm not kidding you. It was ALL over my house. However, lots of people do mix and have no problems with it, so it really depends on the dog. Before I started fully raw feeding, I fed a partial kibble and raw diet.. I fed kibble in the mornings and raw in the evenings. This is something you could try as well. I literally had no problems with this. You could try this and see if it's easier, or you could just use it as a way to start gradual kibble feeding again.

Whatever you choose good luck!


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## InkedMarie

I'm a firm believer in feeding what you're comfortable with. I feed a pre made raw once a day but i don't even have to touch it.


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## domika

InkedMarie said:


> I'm a firm believer in feeding what you're comfortable with. I feed a pre made raw once a day but i don't even have to touch it.


Yup this. I don't think I could do prey model raw but the premade is easy for me.


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## goffredo

Thanks guys for your feedback & support. I thought for a moment i might be labeled a heretic, but the vibe on these forums is really helpful and considerate. It's great.



zhaor said:


> A lot of raw feeders get a separate crate freezer


Yeah, that would work if we had the space for it! I think my wife would probably leave me if I made space for a dogfood fridge, when she has been dying for a proper wine fridge for years now. 



zhaor said:


> ... in small tupperware containers


Yeah, I guess I'm a germophobe. I've read frequently that one should only use stainless steel or ceramic containers for raw food, because of the potential for bacteria to collect in the nicks and pores that plastic containers like tupperware can sustain. The problematic bacteria I'm concerned of is Salmonella, especially because we're starting a family soon:



> A study on 25 commercial raw diets for dogs and cats detected salmonella in 20% and Escherichia coli in 64% of the diets (Weese JS, Rousseau J, Arroyo L (June 2005). "Bacteriological evaluation of commercial canine and feline raw diets". Can Vet J. 46 (6): 513–6. PMC 1140397. PMID 16048011.)



But anyway, it's useful to hear of you guys' process for raw food. My ground raw food comes in 1-pound or 4-pound frozen flat rectangular packs, so that adds some challenge. The only way for me to get them into a small round bowl is to thaw them out, reshape them by mixing them, and then dispense them into bowls / whatever. Because of this, it precludes me whipping up a month's worth of portions ahead of time -- because it would require me to thaw out 75-90 pounds of food in one session. I don't have large enough containers to hold 90 pounds of thawing raw meat. Also, fitting ~120 tupperware containers in my freezer might be challenging.



PackMomma said:


> ...an RV with a fridge. However back when we still tented, I would just bring kibble for camping - certainly won't kill them for a couple days. Some raw feeders will do a gorge feeding before camping trips, which means they will not feed the dog for a day or two, and then the day before the trip they'll feed the dog double or triple its daily portion and then the dog actually can get by just fine a couple days without food. Most people think this is cruel though, but in fact it is not, they certainly will not starve.


My concern is switching from raw to kibble for a camping trip will result in 10% camping, 90% dealing with explosive diarrhea. I like the gorge idea, my ridgeback definitely wouldn't have a problem scarfing down 3x his daily portion and looking up at me with sad puppy-dog eyes and wrinkly forehead like, "That's it?" I've often thought of trying the gorge concept myself, to avoid having to pack human food.

I think the ideal solution for me would be:

1) Raw food that I can buy at most pet stores, and is stable enough to live in the fridge rather than require freezing
2) Raw food packaging that is conducive to glopping out into a bowl without any cleanup and without using too much plastic or paper towels
3) Being able to switch to kibble at the drop of the hat for a camping trip, without risking explosive diarrhea issues

I think some of the commercial raw foods can get me to 1) and 2), but it sounds like 3) is a sticking point.

Good discussion, thanks for the input!


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## Amaryllis

((((Hug!)))) Things like OCD aren't easy to deal with. Feed your dog the best you can and remember, bad dog owners don't care. Good dog owners are the ones who worry.

Now, I will say that not every dog goes all explosive at a sudden food switch. My old dog did, but Kabota has no trouble at all switching foods without transition. So maybe your dog would be fine with 3. Why not buy some kibble and a can of pure pumpkin puree, and test it out? (The pumpkin is to help fix the diarrhea if it happens.)


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## boxerlover876

Does your breeder have any policies on raw? I know some do. I'd check your contract and make sure it doesn't void anything. 

Like said before you can get a cheap chest freezer from CL. If you don't have space you can always put it outside and lock it. Or the garage. 

As far as camping you could feed a dehydrated or freeze dried food while camping. It would be quite easy. He could switch to that quite easily and back. Ziwipeak and Real Meat Pet are two all meat dehydrated foods. You just measure out and feed like kibble.

And as far as E. Coli it is shed in their poop. But it either gets shed or sits in their gut. I choose the poop.


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## zhaor

E. Coli is actually a probiotic in small amounts in a healthy digestive tract 

well a specific strain of it is anyways


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## Rescued

All i have to add is that family pets have survived on crappy dry dog food for years. you aren't even going the crappy route- your dog will be more than okay!!!

do what you feel comfortable with. tons of dogs do great on kibble, especially the excellent brands you're considering. I would transition slowly (more for my own sanity, because dog accidents suck) and everyone will be fine!


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## Shell

Raw is great but if it isn't working for you, and you'll need to store more of it once the dog is growing as you'll have a large, high energy dog to feed, then nothing wrong with quality kibble.

Another option is freeze dried like Grandma Lucy's or Honest Kitchen.

Also, although it is much easier to keep clean since it doesn't need to be in the fridge and it won't splatter around etc, you still have to treat kibble like meat in terms of washing your hands after feeding and washing bowls regularly.


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## kafkabeetle

Yeah, I switched back to kibble after a short time doing raw for similar reasons. It was more expensive, a whole lot more trouble and I hated cleaning up all the little messes that went along with it. My hands were getting dry from washing too. I'm not a germaphobe but I also don't want to walk around with meat juice on my hands all the time. I've now settled on the meatiest kibbles I can find, along with occasional canned food/raw food/extras. It works for us. She's perfectly healthy and that's all that matters.


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## zhaor

kafkabeetle said:


> I also don't want to walk around with meat juice on my hands all the time.


That may be the part that's hard to get over. Actually meat juice in general isn't even that bad when compared to organs. When you're cutting up kidneys and you hands smell like bloody piss, it can be slightly annoying.


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## boxerlover876

zhaor said:


> That may be the part that's hard to get over. Actually meat juice in general isn't even that bad when compared to organs. When you're cutting up kidneys and you hands smell like bloody piss, it can be slightly annoying.


I just did tripe the first time....it had to be 15 washing before the smell came off...


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## goffredo

Shell said:


> Another option is freeze dried like Grandma Lucy's or Honest Kitchen ... you still have to treat kibble like meat in terms of washing your hands after feeding and washing bowls regularly.


This is a good compromise, actually. I don't mind washing bowls. But sanitizing my sink and adjacent counters once a night put me over the top. My vet recommended Honest Kitchen. It seems to be pretty expensive, but it sounds like it's a nice solution that's somewhere between the current frozen ground raw, and commerical high-quality dry kibble. Plus it looks like it is stable enough to take backpacking and road-tripping. Maybe I'll take out a loan and try a box out! My vet actually gave me some free samples, but I discovered that they had expired 8 months ago so I tossed them, figuring I'd just buy a small box of fresh stuff if I really wanted to try it out. I'm kind of hitting myself over the head now that I see how expensive it is.



kafkabeetle said:


> I'm not a germaphobe but I also don't want to walk around with meat juice on my hands all the time


 Word. One of my neighbors has a yellowjacket hive and is doing her best to ignore it, so I can't go outside between noon and 5 pm unless I want to deal with a half-dozen yellowjackets sniffing around me & doggy. The last thing I want to do is go outside smelling like meat juice!



zhaor said:


> When you're cutting up kidneys and you hands smell like bloody piss, it can be slightly annoying.


OMG, I can only imagine. I'm having a really hard time with the ground raw food pack that is thawing out in my fridge right now with tripe in it. Every time I open the fridge, I get a blast of poopy bovine intestine + raw meat whiff. Good way to prevent mid-day fridge snacking!


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## boxerlover876

goffredo said:


> This is a good compromise, actually. I don't mind washing bowls. But sanitizing my sink and adjacent counters once a night put me over the top. My vet recommended Honest Kitchen. It seems to be pretty expensive, but it sounds like it's a nice solution that's somewhere between the current frozen ground raw, and commerical high-quality dry kibble. Plus it looks like it is stable enough to take backpacking and road-tripping. Maybe I'll take out a loan and try a box out! My vet actually gave me some free samples, but I discovered that they had expired 8 months ago so I tossed them, figuring I'd just buy a small box of fresh stuff if I really wanted to try it out. I'm kind of hitting myself over the head now that I see how expensive it is.
> 
> Word. One of my neighbors has a yellowjacket hive and is doing her best to ignore it, so I can't go outside between noon and 5 pm unless I want to deal with a half-dozen yellowjackets sniffing around me & doggy. The last thing I want to do is go outside smelling like meat juice!
> 
> 
> 
> OMG, I can only imagine. I'm having a really hard time with the ground raw food pack that is thawing out in my fridge right now with tripe in it. Every time I open the fridge, I get a blast of poopy bovine intestine + raw meat whiff. Good way to prevent mid-day fridge snacking!


We don't defrost in the fridge. I can only imagine that smell. We portion out into glad containers one meal each about once a week-once a month. Once everything is portioned we just take out one container and defrost in the microwave. No smell and no mess. When we portion the counters get covered with garbage bags. 

And I personally wouldn't go with THK. I'd go with Grandma Lucy's, Ziwipeak, or Real Meat. THK is about half carbs. Not what any dog needs


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## goffredo

boxerlover876 said:


> THK is about half carbs


They have a few different lines. Their grain-free line, The Honest Kitchen's "Love", says it's 17.5% carbs "as served" (when hydrated). See here. I haven't had a chance to compare some of the other foods yet. Grandma Lucy's website doesn't provide a detailed nutritional breakdown (grr!).

I'll continue to do research, but it sounds like freeze-dried raw food is the best bet for my situation. I know there's a ton of food reviews and such online.


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## CptJack

I am doing the same thing right now, though keeping some raw in their diet. Honestly, I just don't have the freezer space with three dogs, or with Kylie's growth. I'm switching to Taste of the Wild kibble, and feeding Merrik's "Before the Grain" 96% (meat source) canned.


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## Lavendergrey

Thought I'd weight in on this, even though I'm still fairly inexperienced with raw food feeding. I started feeding my dog (a small breed) raw ground beef about a week or so ago. My oldest son is a big proponent of raw food for dogs, and feeds his rotties raw food exclusively. He has been encouraging me to feed my newly adopted dog raw, and I've been thinking hard about it, and as I said just started with the raw ground beef, which he loves. He doesn't like raw chicken, and even tonight turned his little nose up at the ground beef with a small amount of chicken liver mixed in. All in all, I'm not so sure about feeding raw. Seems like A LOT of trouble, worry, complications and in general devoting my life to doing it right…not to mention my issues with the cleanliness in the kitchen and washing my hands so much even when just feeding one raw food! I tried to give him a beef rib yesterday and he really didn't want it…which I am on the fence on, because I realize it will be messy and germy and I just don't know if I can handle it. I do want the best for my dog, but am thinking that feeding him grain-free mainly meat canned food mixed with raw burger and some grain-free kibble may work best for us. I really want to be able to give him raw meaty bones for dental health if nothing else, but he has also turned his nose up at that…so am not sure what to do. I can't keep buying foods he isn't going to eat. He was picky enough with the canned and kibble…if he is going to pick and choose raw foods to turn away from then I will be tossing a lot of meat since it doesn't keep very long. Oh, I'm also a vegan, so this whole buying, cutting up and serving all types of raw meat (and having to smell it and look at it) is not really working well for me. I can handle ground beef and maybe a bone now and then (the chicken liver was very unpleasant for me), but after reading and researching how complicated and how many different meats and bones are necessary to feeding a healthy raw diet…well, it just discourages me. The little guy loves the dehydrated chicken liver treats I bought for him, yet he will not touch the real thing in his bowl even when camouflaged by his favorite ground beef!

I also believe that what a person decides is best for their dog (or cat) is what they should feed him/her. We can be excellent parents to our dogs without taking on the guilt of wondering if we are feeding the "right" way. As long as we are caring and concerned and doing what we know we can to keep our animals healthy and happy, then that is what counts!


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## Lavendergrey

goffredo said:


> They have a few different lines. Their grain-free line, The Honest Kitchen's "Love", says it's 17.5% carbs "as served" (when hydrated). See here. I haven't had a chance to compare some of the other foods yet. Grandma Lucy's website doesn't provide a detailed nutritional breakdown (grr!).
> 
> I'll continue to do research, but it sounds like freeze-dried raw food is the best bet for my situation. I know there's a ton of food reviews and such online.


I bought a sample size of THK (don't remember which one) and when I mixed some up for my dog to try he wanted nothing to do with it. It was like mush. I may have done something wrong…but I decided not to mess with that, either. The concept is great but somehow it just didn't work right for us. I hope you have better luck than I.


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## georgiapeach

My dogs do fine on kibble. Do what's best for YOU and your family. 

For those who do raw and don't want the smell on your hands, use disposable gloves when preparing it. Campers who want to continue raw when camping, you can use freeze dried raw.


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## PrincessLPN

I feed Sojos mixed with raw meat. Odin never seemed to tolerate kibble. It didn't seem to matter what brand I used. I love how much better he is doing on raw and am amazed by what a difference it made. I have to agree with the statement about how we do the best we can for our dogs. The best is not always raw.


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## blues327

I agree people need to feed what they feel comfortable feeding, and a person should not feel guilty for not feeding raw, if it just doesn't work out for them personally, everybody's situation is different. Honestly when I was a raw newbie I had a lot of concerns too, and wasn't sure I'd be able to continue with it. We don't travel a lot with our dogs, but I could understand how trying to feed raw while camping/traveling could be difficult. 

For me, as time went on the preparation time got much faster, and the whole germ concern disappeared when I learned how bacteria like Salmonella is commonly found in commercial kibble and treats according to the FDA's testing, and just how much germs/bacteria were on a lot of common household surfaces, that our environment is no where near close to sterile, even if we clean often. 
http://www.webmd.com/news/20070625/top-spots-for-bacteria-at-home
Reading lots of other veteran raw feeder's experiences with feeding raw properly and never having any issues getting sick or their dogs getting sick was a comfort too. 

Wearing disposable gloves when preparing a lot of raw meat and organs at once (cutting and portioning out meals) helped to cut down on hand washing and stinky organ hands, and defrosting in the fridge or sink in a large glass or metal mixing bowl helped to contain any juices that might leak out of a plastic bag while defrosting, doing both these things has made it a little easier for me.

If I hadn't seen enough health differences in my own dogs, I would for sure still be feeding kibble, I found it much more convenient, especially when traveling. Feeding homemade raw can take some prep time and commitment, however I decided to stay with it because it did actually "cure" one of my dogs from the chronic colitis she had for 3 years, and both my dogs have better bloodwork on raw (according to my vet) than they did on higher quality kibble. Researching the nutrients in the foods I was feeding in the diet, also kept me committed to dealing with feeding raw, I was impressed with the different nutrients and amounts in the different raw foods I was feeding, I also liked that the raw meats had such high amounts of important antioxidants like glutathione.


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## lil_fuzzy

What about dehydrated/freeze dried raw food? I got some of that at the pet store, can be kept at room temp in a sealed bag and you just add some water to it a little while before feeding. Can combine with bones and raw meat when you feel like it, or just fed by itself.

I fed Canidae for some time. Obi is reactive to start with, and I think the high protein level in Canidae made him worse. He got a lot better when I switched to raw. Just something to be aware of, but I'm sure most dogs do fine on it.


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## kafkabeetle

lil_fuzzy said:


> I fed Canidae for some time. Obi is reactive to start with, and I think the high protein level in Canidae made him worse.


Why would protein make him hyper? Canidae isn't especially high in protein either (27%), certainly less than raw...


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## MafiaPrincess

We camp in a tent. We took 3 dogs to the US last summer for 3.5 weeks. Fed them honest kitchen while we were gone. Took up less space than kibble would in our small car.


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## saitenyo

Just wanted to add, if you still do want to try the raw, the premades definitely help with the prep and convenience factor. My puppy is on kibble/canned but my cats are half canned, half raw-fed and I use premade for them as it's the only way I can get it to fit in my schedule/lifestyle.

The premade is very easy. I keep the bags in the freezer, but one day a week I portion out a week's supply of food into tupperware containers (one meal's worth per container) and keep those in the fridge. Then when it's dinnertime all I need to do is pull out a container, float the container in a bowl of warm water for a bit (my cats won't eat it if it's too cold) and then serve.

Another thing you can try, and what I'm intending to do with Tyrion eventually, is do occasional homemade meals (like once a week). Or half kibble, half canned if that's affordable for you (I know for some that gets pricey, I have a tiny dog so it works for me). There are lots of options, and I agree with everyone that you need to do what works for you and your dog, and not feel guilty about that.


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## marsha=whitie

I have a 55-60lbs boxer mix that was raw fed (trying kibble again, which isn't going well so we are going to go back to prey model raw), who eats around 2-2.5lbs per day to maintain her weight. I was able to pack 3 weeks worth of meals into my tiny apartment freezer, along with some of my other groceries. It kind of sounds like you're making it a little harder than it needs to be.

Some short cuts that I have found to make dealing with raw a lot easier:
-Use freezer bags. I use the gallon sized bags and am able to pack in a whole days worth of food into it. Before I even mess with the meat, I write one the bags what day of the week the meal is for (EX: Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday would be meat with some bone, Tuesday would be something really boney (like chicken backs) and 2-3 chicken livers, and Thursday would be something really boney with another organ, usually kidneys because they are easy to find around here. I might treat with another kidney throughout the week if I think that a meal is boney enough to control the poops.) I then put everything into the bag and feed it frozen (frozen doesn't make such a big mess, but its really not that big of a deal to just throw a bag in the fridge to thaw the night before.) 
-Buy and portion everything out in one setting. I usually take a trip to the market for meat once or twice a month, stock up on everything I need, then prep it all when I get home. It takes about an hour, but its worth it. Being a mom, I don't feel comfortable dealing with raw meat all the time.

I usually prep everything out on the kitchen table and use cling wrap or the cheap trash bags to cover the table. Invest in gloves if you don't like dealing with raw meat. I use a vinegar/water solution to clean my table. Make things easier for yourself.  Oh, and I also reuse the bags when I feed a meal: I just fold them up and stick them back in the freezer. I only reuse once though.

If I were in to camping, I would still feed raw but invest in something like Pet Botanics, or a kibble that has a lot of meat (Nature's Variety would be my choice) and just feed that when we are out (transitioning up to the camping trip, of course, to avoid digestive upsets).

In the end, you do what ever you feel comfortable with. Your pup will love you no matter what, and as long as your dog is healthy you are in good shape.


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## lil_fuzzy

kafkabeetle said:


> Why would protein make him hyper? Canidae isn't especially high in protein either (27%), certainly less than raw...


It's pretty well known that diet can affect behaviour. The Canidae I fed had closer to 40% protein. Maybe it wasn't the protein though, it could have been something else in the food, but there was a very noticeable difference when I changed to raw.

I just googled how much protein is in a chicken drumstick, which is their staple, and found various sites that say anywhere from 10% to 25%.


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## boxerlover876

lil_fuzzy said:


> It's pretty well known that diet can affect behaviour. The Canidae I fed had closer to 40% protein. Maybe it wasn't the protein though, it could have been something else in the food, but there was a very noticeable difference when I changed to raw.
> 
> I just googled how much protein is in a chicken drumstick, which is their staple, and found various sites that say anywhere from 10% to 25%.


Protein dosn't effect behavior, I can jus about promise. Carbs can though.

It's 10-25% protein with water added in. In dry matter basis it's much much higher. Kibble is dry matter basis.


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## lil_fuzzy

A simple google search tells me protein can affect moods, so I'm still saying it's possible. Of course I don't know if it's the protein or something else in the food that was affecting Obi, just saying I wouldn't rule out protein.


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## Kathyy

If Max ate 40% protein kibble he would likely be getting about 60 grams of protein. Max currently gets about 60 grams of protein in his raw food. Max gets close to zero carbohydrate in his raw food but kibbles are at least 20% carbs. It is the carbs making the difference, not protein.


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## Losech

lil_fuzzy said:


> A simple google search tells me protein can affect moods, so I'm still saying it's possible.


Of course a simple google search told you that. A simple google search can confirm ANYTHING, true or not. The stuff that backs what you are reading is what counts.


Raw food is not low protien. My Shiba gets about 44 grams of protien when he eats EVO, and he gets anywhere from 38 to 57 grams of protien eating raw. Don't look at the % of protien, look at the actual content. Take out the moisture in raw meats and it's pretty dang high in protein.


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## zhaor

In kibble terms (10% moisture), think of meat as about 50-60% protein. Can protein affect behavior? Sure, protein can affect health which can affect behavior. A healthier dog may have more energy and be more "hyper"

Protein isn't going to give someone a sugar high. A sugar high happens because simple sugars are so easily digested and converted to energy. Polysaccharides, protein, and fats aren't converted nearly as fast.


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## Sarayu14

goffredo said:


> My hands are dry and cracking from the constant hot water washing and sterilizing of my counters, sink, feeding area, bowls, and whatever else might happen to get blood or guts splashed on it. I'm a total germ-o-phobe, so my anxiety level is through the roof with all this raw meat slopping around 4x a day.


I see two things wrong with this comment.

First, you are not able to sterilize anything without the use of extream heat and or radiation, that being said as soon as a sterilized item comes in contact with the outside air, it is no longer sterile. At home you can only sanitize not sterilize.

Second, you don't actually need to use very hot water to wash your hands, it is not the temp of the water that cleans, it is the friction of the hands rubbing together and the soap.

Sorry about the lecture, I was in the healthcare field for a little while.

But on the other hand, if you are not comfortable feeding raw meat there are a lot of kibbles out there that are just as good. I use Orijen/Acana when I forget to thaw meat. They can be very expensive but they are good foods.


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## Kathyy

Wash your hands and surfaces just as carefully when you feed kibble as when you feed raw! I hope you do the same with all your foods as any food can be contaminated with harmful bacteria.

Max only gets 10 ounces of food a day. It is super easy for me to portion out a month's worth of two day sized food tubs just using the kitchen sink and a large tub that holds the thawing boxes and bags of meat, bone and organ. I would make quite a mess tripling the poundage!

Hope you find a food that suits both you and your pup.


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## goffredo

Lavendergrey said:


> I'm also a vegan, so this whole buying, cutting up and serving all types of raw meat (and having to smell it and look at it) is not really working well for me


 WOW kudos for that level of commitment. My wife is a recovering vegetarian, and she would take a scientific bent when it came to cutting meaty things up: "Oh this is just like the cadaver we worked on in my anatomy class!" When she trims a cut of meat now, she actually enjoys peeling back the layers of fascia and observing the coloration of the fat globules, the grain of the muscle, etc. Hmm. Should I be worried?



saitenyo said:


> if you still do want to try the raw, the premades definitely help with the prep and convenience factor.


 Word. I'm gravitating toward Steve's Real Food frozen raw at this point:

* They sell it at Whole Foods, so it is easy to find if I ever run out while I'm on the road
* Bag of Frozen Nuggets -- still takes up some freezer space, but I can just pour it out w/o having to touch anything, more or less
* They have a Freeze-dried version, for travelling
* Seems to be nutritionally sound and meets some of my requirements (minerals are chelated, has prebiotic, has flax oil, has fish oil).



marsha=whitie said:


> I was able to pack 3 weeks worth of meals into my tiny apartment freezer, along with some of my other groceries. It kind of sounds like you're making it a little harder than it needs to be.


 Ya, it's true, since posting, I've streamlined my routine with the remaining 75 pounds of frozen I have thanks to some tips here, but it's still a little more effort than is sustainable for me in the long term!



Losech said:


> Of course a simple google search told you that. A simple google search can confirm ANYTHING, true or not.


 Haha funny!



Sarayu14 said:


> At home you can only sanitize not sterilize.


I don't know, my counters are pretty damned spotless. 

Another question: I have seen no mention of feeding freeze-dried food for the long term in my research. Most anecdotes entail feeding freeze-dried during a camping trip, or on a road trip, but with the implication of switching 'back to normal' when the trip was over. Is there some reason why not to feed only (properly-rehydrated) freeze-dried food 100% of the time? It seems pretty damned convenient, doesn't take up fridge space, etc. But maybe I'm overlooking something??


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## Kayota

I did. My dog was losing weight and I was scared so I started feeding kibble again a few days ago. I'll still be feeding some raw but it won't be her main diet.


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## boxerlover876

@goffredo

This is going to sound odd, but you can't look at raw like you would as kibble. Their shouldn't have to be cheated minerals, pre or probiotics, or oils unless your dog really needs them. Nutritinally complete is also subjective because it's to AAFCO standards which mean nothing. The vitamins and minerals are in the meat and widely available. They haven't been cooked down like kibble which is why they have to be added back in. Tripe is the raw equivalent of a probiotic. I do like salmon oil though. I don't really like flax oil. I'd recommend Blue Ridge Beef for a premade as that's what I use and am happy with. I would also recommend Primal or Bravo, but only the all meat grinds. I feed to the PMR idea, only meat, bones, and organ. 

As far as freeze dried or dehydrated I didn't think to recommend it because Duke is far too big to eat it solely. The only ones I'd personally feed are Ziwipeak, Real Meat Pet, Vital Essentials, or Only Natural Pet MaxMeat.


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## domika

I fed Ziwipeak for my 12 lb pup and it was waaay too expensive so we are switching to frozen since it is cheaper. Loved it but spendy.


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## saitenyo

goffredo said:


> Another question: I have seen no mention of feeding freeze-dried food for the long term in my research. Most anecdotes entail feeding freeze-dried during a camping trip, or on a road trip, but with the implication of switching 'back to normal' when the trip was over. Is there some reason why not to feed only (properly-rehydrated) freeze-dried food 100% of the time? It seems pretty damned convenient, doesn't take up fridge space, etc. But maybe I'm overlooking something??


My assumption is price. I've purchased it before to offer as treats, but the places I've found it, it's even more expensive than the frozen premade. For me, the frozen worked fine so I didn't see a reason to spend the extra money, as it would have been way more expensive.

But as far as I know, there's nothing nutritionally inferior about it, so if it fits within your budget, nothing wrong with it probably.


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## goffredo

So I've made the switch! My breeder was understanding that I wasn't able to sustain a 100% raw food diet for the long term. She suggested a few different dry kibble brands that she liked, and suggested I find one where the protein doesn't exceed 24%. Of the oodles of brands she ran by me (Great Life, Dr. E's, Ziwi Peak, Wellness Core, Nature's Variety, Prairie, Holistic Natural, Holistic Select), I was only able to find Wellness Core at my favorite local non-chain pet store, but its protein % was much higher than 24%. 

So I said hell with it, grabbed a bag of Canidae grain-free pure land (25% protein) dry kibble, and headed for the door. In my plan to simplify my feeding process and regain my sanity, mail-ordering dog food or driving fifty miles to a specialty store was a deal breaker. 

I tossed a kibble to Rama, and the poor puppy didn't know what to do with it. He had never seen one. He popped it into his mouth, tried chewing, and it fell out. Repeat about 10x and he finally consumed it, in some capacity. Kind of amusing seeing this chow-hound who inhales a pound of raw meat in 60 seconds reduced to trying to figure out how to eat a single kibble!

I soaked 1/4 cup kibble in as much water and used it to displace a few oz of his raw food in his bowl. I know some people feel you're not supposed to mix raw / kibble, and prefer to alternate when transitioning from one to the other... but I don't think the poor guy would know what to do with an entire bowl of pure kibble, seeing as how he couldn't figure out a single one. We'll see... if he's all diarrhea tomorrow, he might have to get a crash course.

And in the long term, when I'm no longer sick to death of researching dog food for hours and hours a day, I'd like to figure out how to give him occasional raw meals, maybe a meaty bone or a neck or something 1x or 2x a week, just to keep things interesting.


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## zhaor

I would recommend "Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet" by steve brown if you want to supplement kibble with homemade meals later on. It's something like $12 off amazon and the ideas are pretty simple to follow. Otherwise raw meaty bones are fine to give as chews anyways.

I don't really buy into the whole you can't mix raw and kibble idea. I just don't see why it would be an issue.

Also I'm not completely sold on the whole large breed protein level deal. Especially since raw apparently isn't a concern and raw is something like 50% protein 20% fat in kibble terms, but you've already bought a food so w/e. Ridgebacks are large breeds so I guess it wouldn't hurt to be safe anyways. I would be interested in asking the breeder exactly why she thinks don't exceed 24% protein but I doubt she'd know anything about the details. It's kind of funny she would say don't exceed 24% protein then recommend stuff like ziwipeak and wellness core where all the formulas are around 35% iirc.

Edit: Regarding dried raw. There's pretty much 2 types, air dried or freeze dried. In short air drying is cheap but degrades food quality quite a bit. Freeze drying is very expensive but can almost completely preserve the food quality. Ziwipeak is air dried and still very expensive. I haven't actually looked at freeze dried foods but I'd imagine they're even more expensive.


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## Losech

I mix kibble and raw all the time, no problems. Mushers mix kibble and raw all the time as well. I'm not hearing reports of hundreds of sled dogs dying because they ate kibble and raw meat mixed together.
Since the pup has already eaten raw, I'd probably just feed a piece of whatever he's eaten before and add in new things every now and then. Most likely as a separate meal at first until you know if he has digestive problems with kibble and raw at the same time. One of my dogs did at first, but now there are no issues. The other two can flip-flop and mix food types with no transition whatsoever.

Anywho, the calcium/phosphorus ratio is far more important than protein for any growing pup. I don't like feeding low protein foods to any pup, or dog for that matter, but that's just me. I'd most likely go with something closer to 30%.
I'm curious why a breeder who feeds and recommends raw says to feed a low protein food. Raw is not low protein.


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## InkedMarie

I feed pre made raw and kibble....I tried to mix it but it did not work for one of my dogs. Very mucousy, soft poop. For us, it's working better to do Darwins in the morning, kibble in the afternoon.


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## Lavendergrey

goffredo said:


> So I've made the switch! My breeder was understanding that I wasn't able to sustain a 100% raw food diet for the long term. She suggested a few different dry kibble brands that she liked, and suggested I find one where the protein doesn't exceed 24%. Of the oodles of brands she ran by me (Great Life, Dr. E's, Ziwi Peak, Wellness Core, Nature's Variety, Prairie, Holistic Natural, Holistic Select), I was only able to find Wellness Core at my favorite local non-chain pet store, but its protein % was much higher than 24%.
> 
> So I said hell with it, grabbed a bag of Canidae grain-free pure land (25% protein) dry kibble, and headed for the door. In my plan to simplify my feeding process and regain my sanity, mail-ordering dog food or driving fifty miles to a specialty store was a deal breaker.
> 
> I tossed a kibble to Rama, and the poor puppy didn't know what to do with it. He had never seen one. He popped it into his mouth, tried chewing, and it fell out. Repeat about 10x and he finally consumed it, in some capacity. Kind of amusing seeing this chow-hound who inhales a pound of raw meat in 60 seconds reduced to trying to figure out how to eat a single kibble!
> 
> I soaked 1/4 cup kibble in as much water and used it to displace a few oz of his raw food in his bowl. I know some people feel you're not supposed to mix raw / kibble, and prefer to alternate when transitioning from one to the other... but I don't think the poor guy would know what to do with an entire bowl of pure kibble, seeing as how he couldn't figure out a single one. We'll see... if he's all diarrhea tomorrow, he might have to get a crash course.
> 
> And in the long term, when I'm no longer sick to death of researching dog food for hours and hours a day, I'd like to figure out how to give him occasional raw meals, maybe a meaty bone or a neck or something 1x or 2x a week, just to keep things interesting.



I feel much the same. So confusing and very intense involvement needed in order to raw feed, not to mention that I'm not sure it is really best for every dog. My little dog has had several health issues, including worms and now a parasite (Giardia), not to mention Valley Fever, just since we adopted him 2 months ago and I've been so wishy washy about the raw thing, even though he loves raw ground beef. I'm wondering now if he got the Giardia from eating that, since he doesn't eat dog poop. Could have had it before we even adopted him, like so many other things he has, but I think it is possible it came from the raw meat. Anyway, I'm now trying to find a good grain-free kibble and will supplement with the same in canned. Also may begin cooking him chicken breast (he seems to love cooked chicken, and wouldn't touch raw), and buy a good supplement powder to make sure he is getting everything he needs. Gotta settle down soon into a regimen and stop feeling like I'm all over the place searching for the perfect diet for my little guy.

Good luck to you!


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## PackMomma

Lavendergrey said:


> I feel much the same. So confusing and very intense involvement needed in order to raw feed, not to mention that I'm not sure it is really best for every dog. My little dog has had several health issues, including worms and now a parasite (Giardia), not to mention Valley Fever, just since we adopted him 2 months ago and I've been so wishy washy about the raw thing, even though he loves raw ground beef. I'm wondering now if he got the Giardia from eating that, since he doesn't eat dog poop. Could have had it before we even adopted him, like so many other things he has, but I think it is possible it came from the raw meat. Anyway, I'm now trying to find a good grain-free kibble and will supplement with the same in canned. Also may begin cooking him chicken breast (he seems to love cooked chicken, and wouldn't touch raw), and buy a good supplement powder to make sure he is getting everything he needs. Gotta settle down soon into a regimen and stop feeling like I'm all over the place searching for the perfect diet for my little guy.
> 
> Good luck to you!


I would say its probably highly unlikely your dog got giardia from raw meat, the greatest cause of Giardia is from drinking stagnant water, ex. lakes, puddles, ponds, sloughs etc just so you know. Worms on the other hand, can be passed from eating raw carcass from an animal with worms/parasites. Some salmonids (fish) from the pacific north west carry parasites and it is crucial to freeze any wild caught fish from this region for a while before feeding (some will recommend several months at the least). Same goes with any wild game meat, should be frozen for a few weeks at least prior to feeding to kill any parasites.


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## Lavendergrey

PackMomma said:


> I would say its probably highly unlikely your dog got giardia from raw meat, the greatest cause of Giardia is from drinking stagnant water, ex. lakes, puddles, ponds, sloughs etc just so you know. Worms on the other hand, can be passed from eating raw carcass from an animal with worms/parasites. Some salmonids (fish) from the pacific north west carry parasites and it is crucial to freeze any wild caught fish from this region for a while before feeding (some will recommend several months at the least). Same goes with any wild game meat, should be frozen for a few weeks at least prior to feeding to kill any parasites.



Yes, the raw meat is unlikely, thanks…but it is possible if only remotely. There is no stagnant water around where we live (in the desert), nor do we have puddles or lakes, etc. Our neighborhood (or anywhere we may take him) is very dry and clean. Our backyard is all small gravel rocks, other than our patio, and that is where he does his "business" most of the time, as well as on controlled walks with us. So, I am very confused as to where he may have picked up Giardia, unless he had it already when we adopted him. Depending on the incubation time and when symptoms first show up, that is my best guess at this point. He did come with various other ailments, as I said, so it is one more thing we need to deal with on the path of having a healthy, happy pup! So glad we adopted him…otherwise all these things may have continued to be missed by the foster mom (she had 19 other foster dogs, as well as multiple cats), until he was absolutely miserable.


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## boxerlover876

Lavendergrey said:


> Yes, the raw meat is unlikely, thanks…but it is possible if only remotely. There is no stagnant water around where we live (in the desert), nor do we have puddles or lakes, etc. Our neighborhood (or anywhere we may take him) is very dry and clean. Our backyard is all small gravel rocks, other than our patio, and that is where he does his "business" most of the time, as well as on controlled walks with us. So, I am very confused as to where he may have picked up Giardia, unless he had it already when we adopted him. Depending on the incubation time and when symptoms first show up, that is my best guess at this point. He did come with various other ailments, as I said, so it is one more thing we need to deal with on the path of having a healthy, happy pup! So glad we adopted him…otherwise all these things may have continued to be missed by the foster mom (she had 19 other foster dogs, as well as multiple cats), until he was absolutely miserable.


Just curious how intense is it for you? What makes it? We just portionsnd feed. I find people make it harder than needed and would love to help you if wanted. And like you said with the incubation period that's what I'm guessing it would be also. Lots of different stuff can pop up in rescues down the road.


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## goffredo

zhaor said:


> I would recommend "Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet" by steve brown if you want to supplement kibble with homemade meals later on


Oh, sweet! I can save myself some trouble and just buy the frozen raw food that Steve Brown brought to Whole Foods ("Steve's Real Food"), and use that as a supplement. No books, no grinding up organs in the coffee bean grinder.


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## marsha=whitie

boxerlover876 said:


> Just curious how intense is it for you? What makes it? We just portionsnd feed. I find people make it harder than needed and would love to help you if wanted. And like you said with the incubation period that's what I'm guessing it would be also. Lots of different stuff can pop up in rescues down the road.


I feel the same. I was intimidated at first, but once you get started and understand what amount of bone/organ/meat works for your dog, its really not that hard. They get all of the nutrients they need from the organs they eat, so it baffles me when people get so overwhelmed with supplementing. 

But, to each their own. Our bag of kibble is almost out, and I can't wait to go back to prey model raw. My poor Bryna has been losing weight on kibble, so much to the point that I have recently started having to add canned Authority puppy food (509cal/can) so that she would eat everything and to make sure she was getting enough calories. We didn't have any issue when she was on raw.


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## zhaor

goffredo said:


> Oh, sweet! I can save myself some trouble and just buy the frozen raw food that Steve Brown brought to Whole Foods ("Steve's Real Food"), and use that as a supplement. No books, no grinding up organs in the coffee bean grinder.


I guess I wasn't clear, it's a book


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