# High protein kibble only suitable for cold weather?



## mchris1 (Oct 17, 2012)

Hi All. A petshop owner told me that kibble with high protein is only for dogs that live in countries that have cold winters (snow etc)

She told me that when I said I want to switch my dog from Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy to Acana Pacifica.

She said that giving a dog who lives in a country with mild winters and hot summers kibble with high protein content will eventually create problems with the dog's stomach and general health.
What do you think?
Oh and by the way my dog is a 17 month old Dogo Argentino and we live in Cyprus
Thanks!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Sounds like bologna to me.

That said, it takes more calories to maintain normal metabolic function at cold temperatures than at warm ones, so animals (humans included) may burn more calories in cold seasons that in warm ones, assuming the same level of activity in both seasons. High-protein kibbles tend to be more calorie dense than lower protein kibbles. So... maybe their reasoning was that in a hot climate dogs don't need as many calories so you don't need to feed a high-calorie food? Or something?


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I think it's a load of bull and i am surprised she said that because she is loosing money that way lol


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

That is so full of bologna; she runs this store and this is what she tells people? She's not gonna go far in this business - might as well sale it now.

That's the biggest hog-wash I've ever heard.

Yes...dogs living in cold climates, outside, etc do need more calories and a higher calorie food can keep the overall cost of feeding a pet down; but to say they're the only dogs that can benefit from the better ingredients is hog-wash. 

There is nothing wrong with feeding Acana pacifica to *any* dog in any climate. I feed a high protein; grain free food to my big guy year-round - I have too. 

Colorado summers can average 80-105 degrees, our winters average 25-50+ on any given day - so we're not exactly a *cold-country area* either.

My response, buy the food and try it - but go slow on the transition. Acana is going to be richer then Eukanuba, but could turn out to be cheaper to feed in the long run.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The shopkeeper sells this food she advises you not to buy? LOL. If she never will sell it to anyone I wonder how old that bag is?  

Anyway, no. Somes dogs do well on higher protein and some don't. Exercise level has a lot to do with it. Normally I associate higher fat with colder weather, not higher protein. If the calorie count of the Acana is higher than the Eukanuba, make sure you account for that when deciding on portion size.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Thats strange, because on another forum there is an OP telling everyone that LGDs (Livestock guardian dogs-- here they are usually great pyreenes, anatolian shepherd, mixes of the two...) need a LOW protein diet nothing over 18%(which to me is pretty darn low for a working dog stuck outside with livestock in pastures, here that are pretty cold, plus it is Winter)....
But you know, I think that is bologna too...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Quite honestly I don't think I've ever seen a dry dog food with protein levels under 22%. Maybe the really nasty stuff like store brand generic or the stuff in the plain white bag. But normal dog foods are usually a lot higher than that. . .


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Quite honestly I don't think I've ever seen a dry dog food with protein levels under 22%. Maybe the really nasty stuff like store brand generic or the stuff in the plain white bag. But normal dog foods are usually a lot higher than that. . .


Sadly it does exist. I wasnt too pleased when DH brought home a bag of (overpriced) Science diet for Seniors for our (now dearly departed) senior dog after a trip to the Vet.... 18% protein, and all corn... 
I have better food for my chickens....

Even worse now that we have a LGD pup, I was browsing around some site and they reccomended utilizing feeding dog low protein diet of OATMEAL for 2 weeks if pup was being unruly!!!! Really! It seems not too many people dont really think about other ways of modifying behavior.... like training....(a fair number appear to simply shoot the dog for offenses.... sorry I digress)....


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

mchris1 said:


> Hi All. A petshop owner told me that kibble with high protein is only for dogs that live in countries that have cold winters (snow etc)
> 
> She told me that when I said I want to switch my dog from Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy to Acana Pacifica.
> 
> ...


Actually there is some truth to this. And I will tell you why. Some trainers will refer to higher protein foods as "hot feeds" because protein as a source of calories is extremely innefficent and does create heat during gluconeogenesis. About 30% of protein calories are used during this process which is what creates the heat.

Fat and carbohydrate do not cause this.

Your dog really does not need protein above 25% and 30% would be the limit.

As for Acana, its junk. Don't waste your money on it. See if Farmina N&D is available on Cyprus, or I am sure some Italian internet retailers will ship it.


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Quite honestly I don't think I've ever seen a dry dog food with protein levels under 22%. Maybe the really nasty stuff like store brand generic or the stuff in the plain white bag. But normal dog foods are usually a lot higher than that. . .


Sadly it does. Natural Balance has 20% Protein and 10% fat.  Its the only thing my working dog can eat because of allergies and I am having to feed so much of it too keep his weight up. And thats their venison formula. Their Bison is only 20% Protein and 10% fat.


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## mchris1 (Oct 17, 2012)

Thank you all for your replies!!!
The pet store owner doesn't carry Acana anymore - she told me it wasn't selling so they stopped stocking it. I'm guessing know(after reading your replies) that she wanted to keep me as a customer and on Eukanuba....

Thanks again!


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## mchris1 (Oct 17, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Actually there is some truth to this. And I will tell you why. Some trainers will refer to higher protein foods as "hot feeds" because protein as a source of calories is extremely innefficent and does create heat during gluconeogenesis. About 30% of protein calories are used during this process which is what creates the heat.
> 
> Fat and carbohydrate do not cause this.
> 
> ...


 Hi Bumper1 thanks for your reply. I will definitely check Farmina N&D. I saw on their website that they have a distributor in Cyprus.
Do you feed your dog/s Farmina N&D?
Why do you think that Acana is junk?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Damon'sMom said:


> Sadly it does. Natural Balance has 20% Protein and 10% fat.  Its the only thing my working dog can eat because of allergies and I am having to feed so much of it too keep his weight up. And thats their venison formula. Their Bison is only 20% Protein and 10% fat.


What is the nature of this allergy?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

mchris1 said:


> Hi Bumper1 thanks for your reply. I will definitely check Farmina N&D. I saw on their website that they have a distributor in Cyprus.
> Do you feed your dog/s Farmina N&D?
> Why do you think that Acana is junk?


Farmina is not in the USA at this very moment but the website is up and there is a banner that Mr. Chewy.com will be carrying it.

http://usa.farmina.com/

I think the 30% protein line is a good one for your dog.

Why did i say Acana is junk? Poor quality control, lots of misrepresentations and lots of complaints.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Why did i say Acana is junk? Poor quality control, lots of misrepresentations and lots of complaints.


This unfortunately can be said about over 97% of the foods on the market; I've yet to see one that represents itself for what it truly is. All pet foods are from *pet feed* quality ingredients, period, some are better quality - but none of them use the fresh cut meats that some of them boast commercials about. 

Beneful, which IS marketed and produced by Purina, is famous for this misrepresentation - granted, I don't think there are members here that feed it. But it's still produced by the same company that represents on commercials that they use fresh cut meats - very very far from the truth. 

Orijen/Acana is no worse on misrepresentation then other manufacturers, and at least they're forthcoming with where they source their ingredients from.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Farmina actually looks like a good product; hopefully it will become more available. One of the better ones that Bumper has recommended.

*Bumber1* what kind of dogs do you have, what are you feeding, and can you post some pics - I have yet to hear of you actually refer to your own dogs.


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## Voi (Nov 27, 2013)

I've learned that you shouldn't really listen to people at pet stores. I don't know about smaller businesses, but at least with large chains such as Petsmart, they're only in it for the money and most of the people are uneducated or are just trying to be 'salesmen' for a certain brand of food, and will mislead information.
At Petsmart, some guy tried to sell us Science Diet for our new puppy even though we told him we already had her on a brand, and was trying to convince us that Science diet is one of the best and talked about it as if its an elite brand of dog food :|


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

Bumper1 said:


> What is the nature of this allergy?


He is allergic to chicken, no matter if its the first ingredient or not. Breaks out in bumps, loses fur, ear infections, loses fur around his mouth, scratching, licking, diarrhea and vomiting. Goes away once he is on a food with no chicken in it.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

pomwes said:


> bumper is constantly trashing Acana, honest kitchen. He does not know what he's talking about. " trash" that's hilarious. One thing Acana is not is trash...Look at the ingredient list and tell me it's bad for kibble. Beneful, Purina ...That's trash.


Acana is nothing but a bag of beans.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Woofie2 said:


> This unfortunately can be said about over 97% of the foods on the market; I've yet to see one that represents itself for what it truly is. All pet foods are from *pet feed* quality ingredients, period, some are better quality - but none of them use the fresh cut meats that some of them boast commercials about.
> 
> Beneful, which IS marketed and produced by Purina, is famous for this misrepresentation - granted, I don't think there are members here that feed it. But it's still produced by the same company that represents on commercials that they use fresh cut meats - very very far from the truth.
> 
> Orijen/Acana is no worse on misrepresentation then other manufacturers, and at least they're forthcoming with where they source their ingredients from.


Oh really? How forthcoming is Champion about using ingredients that are not in fact from Canada? They are far far far worse.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Oh really? How forthcoming is Champion about using ingredients that are not in fact from Canada? They are far far far worse.


Bumper1 - personally, I would like to know what kind of dogs you have, what you're feeding them, and show us some pics. 

You're so adamant about trashing this or that brand - but you can't guarantee anyone here where anyone else sources their ingredients from; nor can you even provide us proof of what your pups look like eating a certain food. 

So your opinion of this or that food doesn't mean squat to me.

I'm the first to tell you I'm feeding a food most don't care for; Merrick grain-free - because it's working. And yes, I've tried all the foods you recommend as well as Purina, Pro-pac, etc with this guy. 

Truth of the matter, you get some of these serious hard-working fur-dogs and you'll find out what foods work and which ones do not. 

For what it's worth though; I'm stalking up to go back on mostly homecooked - with beef that's coming from the rancher around the corner.


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## Losech (Apr 5, 2011)

My dogs do best on high protein food, even in summer. I've had them on low protein food before and they just aren't in as good shape as they are on high protein. The higher the protein, lower the carbs, and fresher the food, the better they do. On low protein they have dry coats, flaky skin, they stink, breath is bad, energy is not good, very little endurance... none of that on high protein food. They are usually fed a homemade raw/whole foods diet, but I do occasionally feed them kibble. I won't go any lower than 30% on protein levels, fat no lower than 18%, preferably more. And I always add fresh ingredients to their kibble like eggs or ground beef, and they get fish oils no matter what they are eating.
I won't feed kibbles with corn or wheat in them since one of my dogs reacts terribly to this sort of stuff. I'm not fond of peas or beans either, and grains are not an issue with me. (My dogs get grains in their regular food.) I feed kibbles like Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete, Taste of the Wild, EVO, and Merrick. I almost never feed canned food.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, Champion in fact uses meats that are human grade. Additionally, they list where, regionally, all of their meat comes from: http://www.acana.com/about-acana/fresh-regional-ingredients/

From their website:
The do in fact list where most (all) of their meat-based ingredients are from.

"There are no ingredients from China used in the preparation of our dog and cat food formulas, including vitamins — we are 100% China-free." 

"All ORIJEN fresh meats (chicken, fish, turkey, eggs) are of table quality and passed fit for human consumption before arriving at Champion. Our chicken, fish and turkey meals are produced exclusively from animals that are certified as fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA)." 

http://www.championpetfoods.com/faq/

I mean, Bumper1 has got to have something personal against Champion. He takes every chance he gets to bash them, but doesn't do a very good job of substantiating his reasons.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

ya , a friend of mine has been to the champion plant and watched them make the food, she's been a die hard champion fan ever since, she said SHE wanted to eat the meat they used lol.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Miss Bugs said:


> ya , a friend of mine has been to the champion plant and watched them make the food, she's been a die hard champion fan ever since, she said SHE wanted to eat the meat they used lol.


Same here....have a friend that's been there too. 

Thing about Bumper1 he/she can't provide actual documentation of anything he/she talks about. I for one would like to know of the exact sources of Annemeat's ingredients, not just vitamin mixture, but all of their ingredients. 

I would also like Bumper1 to provide proof/documentation that he/she knows Champion for sure is misrepresenting themselves and where their sources are coming from, since he/she states they are lying.

Truth is, any company can do and state what Champion does; and it is hard to read between the lines of what is legit and what is not. That said, why is Champion trashy food and yet Purina, who produces Beneful and provides NO documentation of where any of their ingredients come from is a better food.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Woofie2 said:


> I would also like Bumper1 to provide proof/documentation that he/she knows Champion for sure is misrepresenting themselves and where their sources are coming from, since he/she states they are lying.


If Champion is outright lying about their meat sources, and they are neither from where they are claimed nor human table grade, then surely it would be easy to get the CFIA involved, since they regulate dog food. Surely the CFIA would be unhappy with a manufacturer claiming that their ingredients were of a particular CFIA grade when they were not.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> If Champion is outright lying about their meat sources, and they are neither from where they are claimed nor human table grade, then surely it would be easy to get the CFIA involved, since they regulate dog food. Surely the CFIA would be unhappy with a manufacturer claiming that their ingredients were of a particular CFIA grade when they were not.


Agreed.

I have my puppy eating the Acana Duck, have to say the food smells better then most human meals from restaurants.

Interested to see if *Bumper1* responds to your reply.....but he/she won't. Never does.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Woofie2 said:


> Same here....have a friend that's been there too.
> 
> Thing about Bumper1 he/she can't provide actual documentation of anything he/she talks about. I for one would like to know of the exact sources of Annemeat's ingredients, not just vitamin mixture, but all of their ingredients.
> 
> ...


The evidence is all over the place. It has been documented publicly the company's claims about Canadian sourcing are misleading.

"Originally Posted by roxy84 
i got some of this from champion via correspondence. while the email doesnt mention kentucky, i recall her saying KY was where they procured most of their chicken meal

*Derek, 

Chicken meal is a good example. Although there are producers of chicken meal in Canada, none are capable of producing from chickens passed fit for human consumption and as such no Canadian chicken meal meets the European Union Pet Food Regulation 1774. At present, Canadian chicken meal is made with spent hens (from egg laying operations) as well as chickens that have died, but are not processed in a federally inspected facility, or were not passed as ‘fit for human consumption’ by the Government of Canada. 

So, while our focus is “fresh and regional” our primary objective is always to achieve the highest standard in nutrition, palatability and food safety. Until chicken meal from human grade chickens is available in Canada, Champion will source its chicken meal from one of 2 USA chicken processors, whose chickens and facility are USDA certified, and who have the appropriate European Union qualifications (EU 1774).

ORIJEN is made with special 'low ash' chicken meal. This ingredient is prepared by removing the bones before cooking, which creates a very high protein and low ash ingredient. The result is a moderated amount of calcium and phosphorus in the final ORIJEN kibble. There are definitely different qualities of meat meals out there, just as there are many different grades of meat for you to choose from at your local grocers. If you start with ingredients that are mostly muscle meat (as is the case with our meat meals), this results in a quality meal that is very high in protein. most of the content of our meals will be muscle meat.

Best Regards,

Bonnie
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP
p 780.939.6888
f 780.939.6858"
*

This was later verified in publicly filed documents, the same ones that showed that Michigan State found BHA/BHT in the foods. Chicken meal is the largest component of the company's protein, so the company's claims are false and misleading in my opinion.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Losech said:


> My dogs do best on high protein food, even in summer. I've had them on low protein food before and they just aren't in as good shape as they are on high protein. The higher the protein, lower the carbs, and fresher the food, the better they do. On low protein they have dry coats, flaky skin, they stink, breath is bad, energy is not good, very little endurance... none of that on high protein food. They are usually fed a homemade raw/whole foods diet, but I do occasionally feed them kibble. I won't go any lower than 30% on protein levels, fat no lower than 18%, preferably more. And I always add fresh ingredients to their kibble like eggs or ground beef, and they get fish oils no matter what they are eating.
> I won't feed kibbles with corn or wheat in them since one of my dogs reacts terribly to this sort of stuff. I'm not fond of peas or beans either, and grains are not an issue with me. (My dogs get grains in their regular food.) I feed kibbles like Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete, Taste of the Wild, EVO, and Merrick. I almost never feed canned food.


You live in a cool climate. You would find that high protein foods are not ideal in warm places if your dog was training. In very warm places dogs are put on foods like a 26/20 or 24/20 during the summer. Calories from protein do not sit well in warm climates. It is just a fact of biochemistry. Endurance does not come from protein that is just an illusion you have.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> The evidence is all over the place. It has been documented publicly the company's claims about Canadian sourcing are misleading.
> 
> "Originally Posted by roxy84
> i got some of this from champion via correspondence. while the email doesnt mention kentucky, i recall her saying KY was where they procured most of their chicken meal
> ...


I understand this....and don't disagree with you.

But what makes Orijen's *chicken meal* any more harmful then other companies; and why is Champion the only company YOU signal out for misleading. 

We all know the leading formula of any dog food is *chicken meal*, this stems from foods of kibblesnbitts all the way to Merrick, Orijen, etc.

So why is Champion's *chicken meal* any more harmful or of question then other companies? 

And I can be pretty positive that Champion's chicken meal is not the only one found to have had traces of BHT/BHA; as you posted here in your article, this chicken meal is sourced from USA, which is where numerous other dog food companies get theirs from as well. 

NO dog food of any kind is of human grade quality sources - by law they can not be. Any meats/products that go into PET FEED has to be deemed unsuitable for human consumption so that they will never be reincorporated into the human food chain.

My question is why is Champion worse then Beneful? What makes them any worse then Beneful showing commercials of fresh cut meats within their foods?

G-ma always said that anything that comes in a package was questionable, whether human or pet food; it's a risk anyone takes.

Truth of the matter though, ALL pet food companies misrepresent marketing claims - THIS is my argument with you, is you choose to bash Champion as being the main one to be doing this, but they're not...far from it. 

And I'd still like you to provide info of where Annameat gets their *chicken meal* from; you have yet to post this info. If they're a better food and top of the line, that's fine, but provide the proof that their *chicken meal* is free of BHT/BHA, etc.


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## Losech (Apr 5, 2011)

Bumper1 said:


> You live in a cool climate. You would find that high protein foods are not ideal in warm places if your dog was training. In very warm places dogs are put on foods like a 26/20 or 24/20 during the summer. Calories from protein do not sit well in warm climates. It is just a fact of biochemistry. Endurance does not come from protein that is just an illusion you have.


We had a record breaking hot summer this year. It was not "cool" at all, humid and hot for a long long long friggin time. I tried feeding them less protein but they ALL dropped condition from great to poor rather quickly. I put the dogs back on their high protein food and they went back to normal. Three of them are incredibly active dogs and were run vigorously every day and guess what? No problems. 
Sure some dogs might not do good on high protein foods all the time, or high protein at all for that matter, and I would change a particular dog's diet to suit what they needed (as I already do, one of them gets more meat than mush, and one gets more mush than meat). Dogs are individuals and I happen to have four who do best on a higher protein diet, not the other way around. So quit trying to paint all dogs with the same brush.

And, um, I'm talkin about higher protein food as to higher carb food. I'm not stupid, as you seem to think, and I have no illusions about where calories come from. My dogs get most of theirs from *fat*, not protein or carbs. I guess you could say they eat a high fat diet, since that's really where the energy comes from. There's just more protein than carbs in their food, and I think protein is far more important than carbs so I'd rather feed more of that, since, ya know, protein builds muscle and all that. Those two are what everyone seems to focus on, which is why I didn't really touch on the fat thing.

Let me guess, fat is bad now too, right? I should cut that back as well and feed more carbs? I might give them pancreatitis by feeding them a high fat diet! I guess you want me to have flabby dogs with no muscle mass like most Americans.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Losech said:


> We had a record breaking hot summer this year. It was not "cool" at all, humid and hot for a long long long friggin time. I tried feeding them less protein but they ALL dropped condition from great to poor rather quickly. I put the dogs back on their high protein food and they went back to normal. Three of them are incredibly active dogs and were run vigorously every day and guess what? No problems.
> Sure some dogs might not do good on high protein foods all the time, or high protein at all for that matter, and I would change a particular dog's diet to suit what they needed (as I already do, one of them gets more meat than mush, and one gets more mush than meat). Dogs are individuals and I happen to have four who do best on a higher protein diet, not the other way around. So quit trying to paint all dogs with the same brush.
> 
> And, um, I'm talkin about higher protein food as to higher carb food. I'm not stupid, as you seem to think, and I have no illusions about where calories come from. My dogs get most of theirs from *fat*, not protein or carbs. I guess you could say they eat a high fat diet, since that's really where the energy comes from. There's just more protein than carbs in their food, and I think protein is far more important than carbs so I'd rather feed more of that, since, ya know, protein builds muscle and all that. Those two are what everyone seems to focus on, which is why I didn't really touch on the fat thing.
> ...


Losech - I'm right with you. I have a dog that NEEDS high protein/high fat year round or his energy goes to nill, big time. So I agree wholeheartedly with you. 

Truth is, dogs utilize/burn fats first, protein and then carbohydrates - they still need *some* carb's for endurance; IMHO, my guys sweet spot is in the mid 30% range for carbs. If I go less then that, then again, we're going to have low energy problems. 

I'm not one for believing dogs don't need any carbs, I believe they do...but the right kind and in low moderation. 

Bumper1 has a huge range from stating dogs should do excellent on Purina; in which most formulas are corn based, with very little meat all the way to Annamaet, which contains meat first and no corn. Purina being more carb based then Annamaet. 

So, IMHO, Bumper1 doesn't truly know *what* any given dog will or will not do best on.

I notice a huge difference in my big guy if I feed him a food with 38% protein/17% fat versus one with 26% protein/14% fat or so. 

In your case, I wouldn't fret over the concern of pancreatitis, IMHO, I think you're doing great.


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