# I think I had an epiphany.



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

For the longest time, I figured that Basil was just a poorly bred Papillon. Of course I'll never know for sure, but I think I may have a better guess as to what breed(s) Basil is. I think he may be a Papillon/American Eskimo Dog mix!

For starters, he's WAY bigger than most Papillons. He's about 14.5 inches tall at the shoulder, and weighs about 18 lbs. That would, however, put him within the size range for the Miniature American Eskimo Dog. Also, his face doesn't quite look like a typical Papillon face. He's got a longer and just generally bigger muzzle. His coat, though, I still believe to be mostly Papillon. He's got a single coat rather than double (though he does shed), he has the typical Papillon markings, and he is getting some fringing on his ears. He's also got those gigantic Papillon ears, lol! 

When I adopted him, his papers listed him as a Papillon/Pomeranian mix. Personally, I don't see any Pomeranian, but it wouldn't be difficult to mistake an American Eskimo Dog for a Pom. Maybe who ever bought him when he was a puppy mistook one of his parents for a Pom when it was really an American Eskimo Dog? Regardless of what he really is, though, I'm pretty sure neither of his parents were very well bred, lol!

Here are some pictures for comparison. All of the pictures that aren't mine I found via internet search.

Front View:

























Side View:

























More....


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Another angle:

























Stacked: (Sorry my stacking job kinda sucks, lol)

























What do you guys think?


Oh, and here's something fun I found. This dog looks a lot like Basil. Apparently they're calling them "Papimos." 








http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/p/papimo.htm


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

The other day I saw a picture of Basil and his head reminded me of another breed but then I couldn't quite place it so I didnt post anything. He doesn't look at all like a pom mix but I can def see the similarities with an eskie! His head structure is very similar to that "papimo" you pictured too. He does look like he could be a badly bred pap but its his head that really made me think he might be mixed with something else. I think you might be on to something with the american eskimo. Ekies are great dogs too so that mix sounds like a pretty cool dog lol


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I agree, his head is definitely what makes me think "Hmm.. there's something else in there." At first I was thinking maybe he had some JRT in him, but that still doesn't seem quite right. He isn't very stocky like a JRT, he's still kind of dainty like a Pap, though not SO dainty, you know? Also, he doesn't have the JRT personality at all. I still totally don't see Pomeranian, though, lol.

BTW, Basil IS a pretty cool dog! Hehehe :biggrin1:


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I still think he's just a big papillon.

I know a couple pap/spitz mixes (they're a common designer dog and they many times go to the papillon play dates). Their coats are all VERY different than Basil's and any papillons I can think of. All the things that are 'off' about Basil are common in byb papillons.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

The coat is something that I was wondering about, too. He doesn't have the typical spitz coat. Do you have any idea about the genetics involved with the coat, and what types are dominant or recessive, etc? I'm really curious about the genetics behind his coat. Is it even possible for the offspring of a single coated parent and a double coated parent to have the single coat?

Also it's very possible that Basil's traits could still be Papillon, just poorly bred. Whatever he is, though, he's still the best dog ever :biggrin1: My mom says that when she gets the money she wants to have him DNA tested just out of curiosity. It's pretty fun to speculate about his background; it's a pretty big mystery!  If my next dog is from a breeder I want to learn about every one of the dogs in its pedigree, I just find it fascinating.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

All the Eskie mixes around here have much poofier and thicker coats too, not like Basil's. I would also think he wouldn't be the color that he is? I have no knowledge in color genetics though so I really don't know. Basil does look like just a big Pap, I don't really think he's mixed with anything.

Btw, I love a lot of Xanadu's dogs. Daneview Kriss Kringle is a pretty little fellow


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The dog on the bottom right is a papimo. I thought I had a picture of just him but I can't find it. His name is Tucker.










I know it's hard to tell really from the pic here but he has a very poofy, thick double coat. He was still a puppy under 1 year old in this pic too, so he's gotten even fluffier than he was then. (I think he was 10 months)

Here's Summer (11 inches) next to an oversized papillon. I don't know exactly how big he was but I'm thinking Basil is near the same size.










Jake next to Beau. Jake is 13 inches I think and about 14-15 lbs.










And then this one is Sissy... purebred pap. Top left in the first picture. She looks quite a bit like Basil imo.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I could kind of see it, but I do think he looks like an over-sized Pap.

My aunt's JRT/Shihtzu mix looks a lot like Basil, actually. Similar markings, etc. He's not really JRT in personality except he likes to run and bounce. He's veryyy soft fur, etc.

























.... yet his sister/littermate (my dads dog) Lily looks totally different. She's wayyy more JRT than anything, got the JRT hair, personality, body, etc. 

















So it's amazing what genetics can do, and mixing breeds, etc. Ya just never know what you're gonna get.

I am on the same page as you- I really really really think that Jackson is a Silky Terrier. He literally pretty much fits all the descriptions of them to a tee, he's shaped like them (IMO), etc. Yet the thread I started on here, most just say he's an oversized Yorkie. I've had 6 reputable Silky breeders tell me they are 99% sure he's a Silky but can't say for sure. So I'm just so curious and want to do a DNA test but have heard iffy things and am not sure I want to waste my money.

Either way, Basil is super handsome and a cutie. <3


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I had some time to do a little googling, and I found this website, where they state that no undercoat is dominant over having an undercoat, which is recessive. So that means that an American Eskimo Dog would have to have two resessive alleles for the undercoat, and a Papillon would have either one or two dominant alleles for no undercoat. I assume there are Papillons with the recessive undercoat allele because obviously there are Papimos with undercoats, but they still need to have at least one copy of the dominant no undercoat allele. If that's the case, that means there's about a 50/50 chance that a mix between an American Eskimo Dog and a Papillon (with both dominant no undercoat allele and recessive undercoat allele) for the Papimo offspring to either have an undercoat or not to have one, and 100% chance of not having an undercoat if the Papillon parent has two dominant alleles for no undercoat. So in other words, I guess what I'm trying to say based on this info, is that it's still possible for a Papimo to have the Papillon single coat instead of the spitz double coat. Apparently sparse coat is dominant to a thick coat (again, according to the website linked above). Perhaps there are some Papimos out there that just look like purebred Papillons?? Lol.

As far as color, I'm pretty sure that most American Eskimo Dogs carry the piebald gene that would produce a normal Papillon color pattern.

I'd also like to mention that Basil's coat varies a lot because of his allergies. There have been times where Basil looked really fluffy, and other times where he practically looks bald. I'm not sure exactly how fluffy he would be if it wasn't for his scratching.

For example, here's about average fluffiness. He's probably fluffier in his more recent pictures. The ones up above were taken yesterday.









And here's when he's probably the baldest. His tail probably suffered the most, only half of his tail had long fur, the rest was only about an inch or two long.









To me, though I think the biggest thing that gets me is still Basil's face. Almost every picture of a Papillon I've seen, well bred or not, they have much finer, more petite muzzles than Basil. Even Jack and Sissy seem to have much more forehead and much less muzzle. When you look at the head from a profile view, and look at the ratio of forehead to muzzle in regards to the height of the head, most Papillons are like half forehead, half muzzle or less. Basil's more like 2/3 muzzle, 1/3 forehead, with a much heavier muzzle and less pronounced forehead. I dunno, I just have yet to see a purebred pap with quite the same facial structure as Basil. Maybe there are some out there, though, I don't know!

You know what, darn it, I really want to have a DNA test done, lol! I'm just TOO curious. Any suggestions as to which type is the most accurate? 

BTW, is that Rose in that group picture down in front? She looks SO relaxed, LOL!


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Nargle said:


> To me, though I think the biggest thing that gets me is still Basil's face. Almost every picture of a Papillon I've seen, well bred or not, they have much finer, more petite muzzles than Basil. Even Jack and Sissy seem to have much more forehead and much less muzzle. When you look at the head from a profile view, and look at the ratio of forehead to muzzle in regards to the height of the head, most Papillons are like half forehead, half muzzle or less. Basil's more like 2/3 muzzle, 1/3 forehead, with a much heavier muzzle and less pronounced forehead. I dunno, I just have yet to see a purebred pap with quite the same facial structure as Basil. Maybe there are some out there, though, I don't know!
> 
> You know what, darn it, I really want to have a DNA test done, lol! I'm just TOO curious. Any suggestions as to which type is the most accurate?
> 
> BTW, is that Rose in that group picture down in front? She looks SO relaxed, LOL!


I agree with you on Basil's muzzle/face. I do agree there is something different about it than the other Pap's, but can't quite put my finger on it.

I've heard Wisdom Panel DNA test is decent... but it's kind of a hit or miss with all of them, but I do believe they offer the most breeds.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I still see all papillon. Spanielorbust would be the person to ask about the coat but all the papillon/eskie, papillon/poms, and papillon/shelties I know don't have that sleek, fitted type coat a papillon has. It's much more bushy. 

To me his face doesn't look eskie either. Eskimos have a more domed head and finer muzzle as well. I think if there's something, it's likely a more broad head like another spaniel breed. Papillon head type varies a lot. Ideal is 1/3 of the skull is the muzzle, but there's a lot of variance in especially the BYB/pet store lines. We had a papillon litter at the local pet store that was very young and already over 10 lbs and had faces that looked like they could have belonged to a sheltie. To me, Sissy's proportions look similar to Basil. 

Here's another papillon I know:










If you scour the rescue sites, many look like this. It's just common for dogs that aren't bred with type in mind to moderate in size and shape. There is a general doggy shape and dogs will tend towards this shape if you don't actively select against it. So skulls moderate out, yorkies and papillons tend to get bigger, etc. This is how I ended up with a sheltie that looked more like a collie. She was still a sheltie though, just not a correct sheltie.

Check out this profile: http://www.pcarescuetrust.org/adoption/indexStewie2010-006.htm
http://www.pap911rescue.org/animals/detail?AnimalID=120480 : 18 lbs, looks a lot like him
http://www.pcarescuetrust.org/adoption/indexJasper2010-004.htm
http://www.pcarescuetrust.org/adoption/indexLola2010-055.htm
http://www.paphaven.org/cgi-bin/animal.pl?id=712
http://www.paphaven.org/cgi-bin/animal.pl?id=817
http://www.paphaven.org/cgi-bin/animal.pl?id=531

I was actually googling papillon/eskie and came upon this Basil clone, but turns out the dog is a papillon they breed to their eskimo dog to get puppies.

http://countrygirleskimos.homestead.com/Eskie-Papillon.html

Here's two BYB paps that go the opposite directionsx


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Laurelin said:


>


Okay, I know BYB = Bad and all that, but OMG that dog is terminally cute.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

How big is the 2nd dog? it looks absolutely tiny!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh yes, Gherkin was incredibly adorable. She weighed under 3 lbs and was 14 or 15 in that pic.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Gerkin, what a perfect name for that little pipsqueak... but 14 or 15 inches? She sure doesn't look more than 7 or 8 inches tall.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

14 or 15 years. 

ETA: I bet gherkin wasn't 6 inches actually lol. She was really tiny.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I thought I had already made my reply! My bad, lol!

Some of those dogs you posted, Laurelin, do look a lot like Basil. Especially Pixie! That's weird in Pixie's description, it says she was a puppy mill breeding dog, and that the puppy mill preferred bigger (toy) dogs because they can have easier litters. Basil's foster mom said that Basil was most likely from a puppy mill, so I can imagine that breeding this "type" of Papillon might be popular in puppy mills.

Speaking of Papillons and their mixes, though: Yesterday I met someone with a Papillon/ACD mix while walking Basil! I could have sworn it was a purebred Border Collie puppy, but it did have a lot of features in common with Basil, and apparently they knew the parents. I'm not sure how old he was, but he was about the same size as Basil. And I guess he and Basil sort of have the life-long puppy face, lol! It was really neat, though :biggrin1:


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