# Aggressive dog - not sure where to post



## R27 (May 18, 2011)

Hi there.

I've been lurking the site for some time and am not sure where to post this. I have owned a dog all my life and have had no issues, but maybe that's because I won't deal with issues. (no patience for it)

My boyfriend got a pitbull in January that the owners gave away because it was aggressive with their toddler. My bf knew what he was getting into (at least in the sense he was told what the dog was like), has enrolled the dog in obedience lessons and is a very good dog owner. The dog started out a little leary but over time as he got more comfortable, got more aggressive. I termed it the honeymoon phase ending. 

The dog gets lots of exercise - goes for runs, walks, we take both our dogs to the park, etc. But Tucco (the dog is question) is very quick to react aggressively. 

He has drawn blood when my bf has tried to move him into the house and the dog won't go (fear of abandonment is our guess) and one time when my kiddo ran to close to him, he growled and showed his teeth ( obviously my fault. I shouldn't have let my kid get so close).

Since enrolling in the lessons, my bf has implemented boundaries. The dog is no longer allowed on the couch, in the bed, but has his own living room chair and rug on the floor. The dog shows less aggression towards my bf, and has shown little aggression to me, but that's because I try to avoid doing things with it since I dont want to get bitten. 

I know there is a difference between fear biting and aggression biting. I would classify this as the latter. 

I guess my question comes in because today I tried to put Tucco on the dog run outside (which I've done before more then once) and he ignored me and would not come over. So I went to get him and pulled him off the porch by his collar. He took a half hearted snap at me (and I'm far from a dog trainer so had really no idea what to do at this point) and I held onto the collar anyways and said "Tucco, no biting." and then waited for a second and said "Tucco, come" and pulled on the collar. Well, it went from a half hearted snap to a fairly aggressive bite. Not knowing what to do, I didn't let go and it went from an aggressive bite to a full on clamp down and squeeze. After telling him no for a few seconds I let go and called my bf to come get the dog. I feel like an idiot and really have no idea how to handle this situation in the future. I think I may have contributed to a bad scene for myself because now the dog will think he can bite me (very hard) and get away with it? Argh. I'm in a bind here. I've also got some pretty holes in my wrist and hand. 

My bf told me he should have told me to move the dog with a leash, since that's how he moves him. Today after the dog bit me, it bit my SO when he grabbed him by the collar. 

Anyways, I really have no idea what to do here. Any info you need or any you can give me would be great. I am trying not to take it personally. Bah.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

This is a really serious issue. Your bite wounds could become infected, as often happens with deep puncture wounds -- I would see a doctor to get them treated properly. This dog is a huge liability to your boyfriend. If he gets out and there's children in the street. it could kill one. You NEED to seek professional help with this, it's not going to get better only by implementing boundaries (although that's a good start). I would consider implementing the Nothing In Life Is Free techniques (found on this forum -- search for NILIF) to help with the situation. Pit Bulls have SUCH a bad rap already, I would hate to see a situation created where a breed representative could do something to create even more animosity towards pit bulls in general.

In the future, if you're around that dog and he takes a "half-hearted snap at you", back off. It's not half hearted because he's not going to hurt you, it's half hearted because that's how dog aggression usually works. You start with a warning growl, a freeze, a snap, and if the thing the dog wants to leave him alone is still there, he has no choice but to escalate his behavior. You're right that backing off after a snap is teaching the dog that snapping makes people go away, but it's not worth being bitten over. The best thing to do while training is never force the dog into a situation where he feels like he needs to snap or needs to make a human back off. Go inside, get a glass of water, and THINK about the situation. You should also only be handling that dog with a leash. Also "pulling off the porch by the collar" is absolutely not something you should be doing to an aggressive dog because he's going to retaliate. That's a threatening behavior even to a dog with no aggression issues.

Sorry... I'm not very much help. I don't deal with aggressive dogs very much. I'm generally pretty good at identifying things you shouldn't do with/to aggressive dogs, but I have a lot more learning to do about finding things you SHOULD do. Honestly, for full-on aggression cases like this pit bull you're describing, I tend to fall into the mindset of "but there are SO many great, lovable, sweet dogs that wouldn't bite people dying every day in shelters..." I'm not sure if that's very ethical, though.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

Like Cricket above said, get that wound checked out. Animal bites can become infected like nobody's business.

I'm glad that your BF is trying his best, but this dog has drawn blood more than once. Situations like these usually escalate until someone gets a bite serious enough to be hospitalized and the dog is as good as dead. Does his training instructor know about this? If he hasn't already I would look for a trainer that specializes in aggression cases and work with them one on one if you want any hope in rehabilitating this dog.
As it is (serious question here) what is this worth to you? Will you ever be able to trust this dog? Can you live with never having kids or strangers around this dog, or never taking him out without a muzzle?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

This is a very very bad situation all round.....your BF needs to have the do evaluated ASAP by a Professional Behaviorist ...not just a dog trainer but someone who specializes in aggressive and fearful dog behavior ...until that is done this dog should be handled only by your BF and have no access to anyone else at anytime 

Do you live with your BF?


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## R27 (May 18, 2011)

CricketLoops said:


> This is a really serious issue. Your bite wounds could become infected, as often happens with deep puncture wounds -- I would see a doctor to get them treated properly. This dog is a huge liability to your boyfriend. If he gets out and there's children in the street. it could kill one. You NEED to seek professional help with this, it's not going to get better only by implementing boundaries (although that's a good start). I would consider implementing the Nothing In Life Is Free techniques (found on this forum -- search for NILIF) to help with the situation. Pit Bulls have SUCH a bad rap already, I would hate to see a situation created where a breed representative could do something to create even more animosity towards pit bulls in general.
> 
> In the future, if you're around that dog and he takes a "half-hearted snap at you", back off. It's not half hearted because he's not going to hurt you, it's half hearted because that's how dog aggression usually works. You start with a warning growl, a freeze, a snap, and if the thing the dog wants to leave him alone is still there, he has no choice but to escalate his behavior. You're right that backing off after a snap is teaching the dog that snapping makes people go away, but it's not worth being bitten over. The best thing to do while training is never force the dog into a situation where he feels like he needs to snap or needs to make a human back off. Go inside, get a glass of water, and THINK about the situation. You should also only be handling that dog with a leash. Also "pulling off the porch by the collar" is absolutely not something you should be doing to an aggressive dog because he's going to retaliate. That's a threatening behavior even to a dog with no aggression issues.
> 
> Sorry... I'm not very much help. I don't deal with aggressive dogs very much. I'm generally pretty good at identifying things you shouldn't do with/to aggressive dogs, but I have a lot more learning to do about finding things you SHOULD do. Honestly, for full-on aggression cases like this pit bull you're describing, I tend to fall into the mindset of "but there are SO many great, lovable, sweet dogs that wouldn't bite people dying every day in shelters..." I'm not sure if that's very ethical, though.


Thanks for the reply. 

I pretty much agree with everything you said 100%. In hindsight I can see I was setting myself up for disaster by grabbing him like that. I guess since he's never full out went for it, I didn't figure this would be the time, ha. I went out later in the day and shuffled him around on the line and nada, but then again, I wasn't trying to relocate him anywhere. As for the liability factor, I've had that very conversation with the bf more then once trying to impress upon him the gravity of the type of dog he's dealing with. Pitt's aren't my fave, but I don't mind them either. I won't have a breed bias after this, but I have tried to explain that as a breed with an already bad rap, having an aggressive dog like this is just adding fuel to the fire. When I said in my original post that I don't have patience for issues like this, I mean it. If this was my dog I probably would have had it put down. Sounds harsh, but I just don't have the tolerance for it. I'll definitely take a read through that link you showed me. I really want an effective way to conduct myself around the dog so I don't end up getting bit again or contributing to someone else getting bitten. I'll also get the bite checked out. I appreciate the feedback for sure.



Indigo said:


> Like Cricket above said, get that wound checked out. Animal bites can become infected like nobody's business.
> 
> I'm glad that your BF is trying his best, but this dog has drawn blood more than once. Situations like these usually escalate until someone gets a bite serious enough to be hospitalized and the dog is as good as dead. Does his training instructor know about this? If he hasn't already I would look for a trainer that specializes in aggression cases and work with them one on one if you want any hope in rehabilitating this dog.
> As it is (serious question here) what is this worth to you? Will you ever be able to trust this dog? Can you live with never having kids or strangers around this dog, or never taking him out without a muzzle?


I would be perfectly fine if he got rid of the dog, to be perfectly honest. This dog is the sweetest animal in the world when he's getting his way, but has zero qualms about taking to a dangerous level if he doesn't. He has a training session tonight, but the problem is it's a group environment and it's almost an assembly line procession when classes start and end. In one door come the new dogs, out the other door go the previous, so there's really no time to get the instructor one on one. A guy in my class told me about a group where he works with an rcmp dog trainer and I think I'm going to get the info and see if I can try to set something up for a one on one session dealing with serious aggression. I have the feeling I would end up getting the boot before the dog, haha. 



pugmom said:


> This is a very very bad situation all round.....your BF needs to have the do evaluated ASAP by a Professional Behaviorist ...not just a dog trainer but someone who specializes in aggressive and fearful dog behavior ...until that is done this dog should be handled only by your BF and have no access to anyone else at anytime
> 
> Do you live with your BF?


We live in a relatively small city, but like I said above, there's one fellow who works with the RCMP handler and I'm going to try and see if I can get something with that so the bf can at least talk to him. 

I don't live with him, no. After Tucco growled at O'Rian, he was no longer allowed at my place and when we're over at my SO's, the dog stays outside. How should only handling him go? I'm over there pretty frequently and wouldn't be sure how to implement something like that? Would the dog only be outside when I was over? Kenneled at night? 

I really appreciate all the info you folks are giving me. I want this to get better, not worse.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

With a dog with that sort of issue, I think professional help is important if he intends to keep this dog. One question - how badly did he damage you? You didn't mention needing to go to the emergency room. Did you need stitches?


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## R27 (May 18, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> With a dog with that sort of issue, I think professional help is important if he intends to keep this dog. One question - how badly did he damage you? You didn't mention needing to go to the emergency room. Did you need stitches?



No no, he didn't shake or anything. He just clamped down and started to apply heavy pressure until I let go. I got a couple holes and alot of bruises, but nothing major. I plan on taking the advice from above though and getting it looked at. 

Makes me grateful for my good natured lab


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

R27 said:


> No no, he didn't shake or anything. He just clamped down and started to apply heavy pressure until I let go. I got a couple holes and alot of bruises, but nothing major. I plan on taking the advice from above though and getting it looked at.
> 
> Makes me grateful for my good natured lab


That's darned good bite inhibition. I'd much rather work with a dog who thoughtfully puts pressure on a human than a dog who just lets loose with their mouth. Still, it needs to be addressed, and addressed quickly, and with really informative training rather than trying to dominate or out-nasty the dog. So be careful who you choose to work with him and what their methods are, but this dog needs some rules and boundaries, and he needs those introduced in a way that doesn't get anyone injured.


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## R27 (May 18, 2011)

Yeah, I think Tucco is a "give an inch, take a mile" personality. 

I know the trainer advocates for a treat-reward method. And to train when the dog would be hungry, so he would be more inclined to pay attention (he's not advocating for starving the dog however). Should I maybe start getting involved with this so he knows I'm also a source of something good? I read the NILIF sticky and it said something along those lines. If the dog wants something, he needs to work for it. Like I said in a previous post, I don't do anything with this dog if I can help it. I'm not scared of him, I just have a healthy respect for the damage he can inflict if he wanted to and don't know how to appropriately act with an aggressive dog.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

When I say only your BF should be handling him...its not a training method or issue...just a safety issue. I personally love APBTs...have one and will always probably have one.....I have a very low tolerance for human aggressiveness in the bred so in my household this behavior would not be tolerated .....but I have children in the household and lots of family in and out . Since I'm not in a position to see the behavior, I would not feel right telling you if they dog should stay or be put to sleep, so the best advice is to have the dog evaluated and weigh the challenge of keeping a dog with his issues out of trouble ...most likely 100% supervision and management for the rest of his life...what I can say for sure is that owners of the APBT do not need another headline in the news


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

You might also want to have a vet check his thyroid. Low thyroid is less likely with younger dogs, but it can occur, and can cause dogs to be more aggressive.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> You might also want to have a vet check his thyroid. Low thyroid is less likely with younger dogs, but it can occur, and can cause dogs to be more aggressive.


(First pointing out that internet advice is never an equal alternative to in-person professional advice, and this is just general discussion of behavior) Actually, it just sounds to me like a dog who has learned how to get what he wants. He gives a ton of warning, and slowly escalates the request, being reasonably careful with his mouth. If he'd wanted to send this person to the hospital, he was in the perfect position to do so, and many dogs would have. Not a lot of adrenaline or out-of-control aggression here. Of course, he's going to learn that only the louder requests get listened to, so he's going to get to the point where that's where he starts asking (because humans are, apparently unable to pay attention to softer requests.)


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I will first say I don't have much experience with aggressive dogs. BUT, both times it appears he's drawn blood have been times when you and BF actually tried to move him, because he wouldn't do what you were asking him to do. With your situation, you were taking hold of him by the collar. Lots of dogs don't like being grabbed by the collar and they get very defensive. I'm NOT making an excuse for him, just saying that physically moving him by carrying or picking him up, or by grabbing his collar could be making him escalate his response.
So, maybe, have a leash handy, so you can leash him when you need him to move.


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

As another poster pointed out, its important to get the dog checked out by a vet and run the neccessary blood tests, often times dogs act out due to underlying pain. Once thats eliminated, look into st. johns wort, in small doses it helps to calm down agressive dogs. You may also want to consider dietary changes, foods high in sugar and dyes increase hyperactivity in dogs, theres also some evidence that high protein foods contribute to agression, thought I wouldnt go lower then 26% , since those are generally are filler based with no meat protein.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> (First pointing out that internet advice is never an equal alternative to in-person professional advice, and this is just general discussion of behavior) Actually, it just sounds to me like a dog who has learned how to get what he wants. He gives a ton of warning, and slowly escalates the request, being reasonably careful with his mouth. If he'd wanted to send this person to the hospital, he was in the perfect position to do so, and many dogs would have. Not a lot of adrenaline or out-of-control aggression here. Of course, he's going to learn that only the louder requests get listened to, so he's going to get to the point where that's where he starts asking (because humans are, apparently unable to pay attention to softer requests.)


 I have to agree somewhat (with out seeing the dog) with the above as well.....this seems to be pretty controlled ....he is not cornering anyone , lunging, etc etc.....but could easily escalate if let go ...and I'm still not convinced this is the best dog for this household (from what has been posted) 

what I really don't like is you saying that when your son was near the dog ...the dog growled and bared teeth...this is something that would have to be addressed immediately


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## R27 (May 18, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> (First pointing out that internet advice is never an equal alternative to in-person professional advice, and this is just general discussion of behavior) Actually, it just sounds to me like a dog who has learned how to get what he wants. He gives a ton of warning, and slowly escalates the request, being reasonably careful with his mouth. If he'd wanted to send this person to the hospital, he was in the perfect position to do so, and many dogs would have. Not a lot of adrenaline or out-of-control aggression here. Of course, he's going to learn that only the louder requests get listened to, so he's going to get to the point where that's where he starts asking (because humans are, apparently unable to pay attention to softer requests.)


Yup, he laid off as soon as I let go of his collar. If I end up having to deal with him again - which at this point I don't plan on, I will be using a leash to move him. I've been reading alot on here and am learning alot. I'm much more informed about the warning signs now. Like I said, what I took as a half hearted snap was more of a "piss off now" idea, ha. 



doxiemommy said:


> I will first say I don't have much experience with aggressive dogs. BUT, both times it appears he's drawn blood have been times when you and BF actually tried to move him, because he wouldn't do what you were asking him to do. With your situation, you were taking hold of him by the collar. Lots of dogs don't like being grabbed by the collar and they get very defensive. I'm NOT making an excuse for him, just saying that physically moving him by carrying or picking him up, or by grabbing his collar could be making him escalate his response.
> So, maybe, have a leash handy, so you can leash him when you need him to move.


For sure. As I said above, in hindsight I can see I dealt with the entire situation wrongly. Until I'm a little more educated, I'm going to limit my interaction with the dog for sure. 



BlueChaos said:


> As another poster pointed out, its important to get the dog checked out by a vet and run the neccessary blood tests, often times dogs act out due to underlying pain. Once thats eliminated, look into st. johns wort, in small doses it helps to calm down agressive dogs. You may also want to consider dietary changes, foods high in sugar and dyes increase hyperactivity in dogs, theres also some evidence that high protein foods contribute to agression, thought I wouldnt go lower then 26% , since those are generally are filler based with no meat protein.


He does eat kibble, but is highly supplemented with deer and bear. I really think the aggression (at least from what I've seen) is equivalent to a spoiled little kid who as the previous poster stated, has learned that this is how he gets his way. I'm hoping that with time and consistency on all fronts (mine included) will help. I'll mention the idea of getting him looked at by a vet.



pugmom said:


> I have to agree somewhat (with out seeing the dog) with the above as well.....this seems to be pretty controlled ....he is not cornering anyone , lunging, etc etc.....but could easily escalate if let go ...and I'm still not convinced this is the best dog for this household (from what has been posted)
> 
> what I really don't like is you saying that when your son was near the dog ...the dog growled and bared teeth...this is something that would have to be addressed immediately


Yeah, I really have no idea how to deal with that, except to keep my kid away from him, which is what's been done since that occasion.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

doxiemommy said:


> I will first say I don't have much experience with aggressive dogs. BUT, both times it appears he's drawn blood have been times when you and BF actually tried to move him, because he wouldn't do what you were asking him to do. With your situation, you were taking hold of him by the collar. Lots of dogs don't like being grabbed by the collar and they get very defensive. I'm NOT making an excuse for him, just saying that physically moving him by carrying or picking him up, or by grabbing his collar could be making him escalate his response.
> So, maybe, have a leash handy, so you can leash him when you need him to move.


I agree...Lots of dogs do not take kindly to having their collar grabbed...Next time try looping a leash around his neck & walking him away.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

It doesn't matter if the dog doesn't like it's collar being held. A dog should NEVER bite or growl for that. It's not even partially a good excuse for that level of aggression. A normal dog should tolerate it. I'm in the "because I said so" camp of dog training and my dogs have always respected and loved me. I'm not talking about alpha rolling or anything. But starting from puppyhood, they don't get options. If I pull on their collar, off they go. I choose the direction we go on walks, they don't pull on the leash, etc.

At this point with and adult and such a powerful breed, a behaviorist is the only way to go. I don't know if I could ever fully trust a dog that bit me.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

luvntzus said:


> It doesn't matter if the dog doesn't like it's collar being held. A dog should NEVER bite or growl for that. It's not even partially a good excuse for that level of aggression. A normal dog should tolerate it. I'm in the "because I said so" camp of dog training and my dogs have always respected and loved me. I'm not talking about alpha rolling or anything. But starting from puppyhood, they don't get options. If I pull on their collar, off they go. I choose the direction we go on walks, they don't pull on the leash, etc.
> 
> At this point with and adult and such a powerful breed, a behaviorist is the only way to go. I don't know if I could ever fully trust a dog that bit me.


Ideally they wouldn't growl/bite over being grabbed by the collar but many do...If it is simply a matter of slipping a leash over their heads & leading them away then why not?...You still get your desired results...I deal with a large, powerful & hard tempered breed & I am in the camp of taking the path of least resistance where the dog is concerned...I find what works for them & for me & go with that.
I do agree at this point a behaviorist is probably in order though.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

your boyfriend moves the dog with the leash...have you guys never worked on training this dog to come? how else do you "handle" him? could you please describe these "obedience lessons"?


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I guess hard tempered dogs are just not for me. I grew up with a Golden Retriever and I have Shih Tzus. I can't even fathom my dog biting me because I did something that annoyed them.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

luvntzus said:


> I guess hard tempered dogs are just not for me. I grew up with a Golden Retriever and I have Shih Tzus. I can't even fathom my dog biting me because I did something that annoyed them.


I totally agree!...My dogs don't bite & I would be very upset if they ever did...But with some breeds it is easier to work WITH them than to be in the camp of "my way or the highway"!


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

luvntzus said:


> It doesn't matter if the dog doesn't like it's collar being held. A dog should NEVER bite or growl for that. It's not even partially a good excuse for that level of aggression. A normal dog should tolerate it. I'm in the "because I said so" camp of dog training and my dogs have always respected and loved me. I'm not talking about alpha rolling or anything. But starting from puppyhood, they don't get options. If I pull on their collar, off they go. I choose the direction we go on walks, they don't pull on the leash, etc.
> 
> At this point with and adult and such a powerful breed, a behaviorist is the only way to go. I don't know if I could ever fully trust a dog that bit me.



In theory, I agree. Dogs should allow their collar to be grabbed and held. In fact, when we were in basic manners class, that was part of the curriculum; when you called your dog to you, you also grabbed the collar, so the dogs were used to it.

But, this dog was not originally a part of this family. He was given away from his original home, and the OP didn't give much info about THAT home, other than the fact that the dog was aggressive with the old owner's toddler. We don't know what kind of training, if any, he received in his original home, or how he was treated. 

And, a dog that hasn't been trained to accept being grabbed by a collar, who, from what the OP has said, is aggressive and has issues with being grabbed, SHOULDN'T, IMO be grabbed by the collar. It's not a matter of what, in theory should be acceptable, it's a matter of what's safe in this situation.

IF the OP and the BF continue to work with the dog, and have a behaviorist/trainer in to help, THEN, they may be able to work up to that. I just don't think you should grab a dog that has issues by the collar, when it's caused a bite in the past. A leash is safer until, and if they work this out.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

luvntzus said:


> It doesn't matter if the dog doesn't like it's collar being held. A dog should NEVER bite or growl for that. It's not even partially a good excuse for that level of aggression. A normal dog should tolerate it. I'm in the "because I said so" camp of dog training and my dogs have always respected and loved me. I'm not talking about alpha rolling or anything. But starting from puppyhood, they don't get options. If I pull on their collar, off they go. I choose the direction we go on walks, they don't pull on the leash, etc.
> 
> At this point with and adult and such a powerful breed, a behaviorist is the only way to go. I don't know if I could ever fully trust a dog that bit me.


Apparently nobody told this dog (and more than a few other dogs). The thing is, collar grabs can and should be conditioned to be a good thing. That hasn't happened here. I do agree that internet advice may make an interesting discussion but in-person professional help is what is needed here.



luvntzus said:


> I guess hard tempered dogs are just not for me. I grew up with a Golden Retriever and I have Shih Tzus. I can't even fathom my dog biting me because I did something that annoyed them.


That's a good thing. However I've known a few Shih Tzus and one or two Goldens who were quite the little dictators. It's less about breed and more about clear communication


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## R27 (May 18, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> your boyfriend moves the dog with the leash...have you guys never worked on training this dog to come? how else do you "handle" him? could you please describe these "obedience lessons"?


Well, I personally have done no work with this dog. I've also never attended the lessons. From what I've gathered, they are primarily basic obedience skills. The dog will come (usually) when called, sit, lay down, stand up, etc in response for treats. He's started listening when treats are not being offered as well. 



luvntzus said:


> I guess hard tempered dogs are just not for me. I grew up with a Golden Retriever and I have Shih Tzus. I can't even fathom my dog biting me because I did something that annoyed them.


I'm in the same boat. My kid crawls all over my dog and the pooch doesn't blink an eye. I hate stressing about how a dog is going to react constantly. 



doxiemommy said:


> But, this dog was not originally a part of this family. He was given away from his original home, and the OP didn't give much info about THAT home, other than the fact that the dog was aggressive with the old owner's toddler. We don't know what kind of training, if any, he received in his original home, or how he was treated.
> 
> IF the OP and the BF continue to work with the dog, and have a behaviorist/trainer in to help, THEN, they may be able to work up to that. I just don't think you should grab a dog that has issues by the collar, when it's caused a bite in the past. A leash is safer until, and if they work this out.


I don't think he got much. I know the dog was loved dearly, but I'm not sure how much actual exercise and attention the dog got. I have brought up the idea of one on one training and a possible behaviorist. I think the idea of the behaviorist was greeted with a little skepticism, but I'm going to push for it till he agrees. 


Another example, yesterday I was leaving and the dog saw I was going and wouldn't leave the side of my car. My bf walked up to the dog and said "Here" and the dog kind of lifted it's lips and showed some teeth. He went and got the leash and applied it and pulled Tucco away from my car and then the dog jumped up, snapping at the leash. It's a very frustrating and stressful situation.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

He sounds dangerous. He needs a behaviorist NOW not later.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

"Fixing" this will likely cost a few dollars and may not work _based on the descriptions given by the OP._ There are a lot of really good dogs out there (many of them PBT's too) just waiting for someone to take them home that do NOT behave like this. Takes a lot of effort to train an animal. Might as well spend the effort on a good one as a bad one.. and I would not share my resources with a dog that I was afraid to move out of the way so I could get in my car. 

Honestly, if I were in the OP's shoes I would find a new BF. He is not willing to do the hard thing with this dog (and the hard thing is muzzle, train, behaviorist.. if they can find one, or PTS the dog which is my suggestion since the dog had bitten multiple times.. Bite inhibition or no). 

Right now there are over 6.92 billion people on this planet (US Census estimate). Seems to me you and your child can find someone else who has a safer dog to be around.

BTW my comment does not negate the considerable effort you are putting into learning about what to do with a dog like this. I commend you for that. Stay safe.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> "Fixing" this will likely cost a few dollars and may not work _based on the descriptions given by the OP._ There are a lot of really good dogs out there (many of them PBT's too) just waiting for someone to take them home that do NOT behave like this. Takes a lot of effort to train an animal. Might as well spend the effort on a good one as a bad one.. and I would not share my resources with a dog that I was afraid to move out of the way so I could get in my car.
> 
> Honestly, if I were in the OP's shoes I would find a new BF. He is not willing to do the hard thing with this dog (and the hard thing is muzzle, train, behaviorist.. if they can find one, or PTS the dog which is my suggestion since the dog had bitten multiple times.. Bite inhibition or no).
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this. The dog needs professional work. I think the term time bomb applies here.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> "Fixing" this will likely cost a few dollars and may not work _based on the descriptions given by the OP._ There are a lot of really good dogs out there (many of them PBT's too) just waiting for someone to take them home that do NOT behave like this. Takes a lot of effort to train an animal. Might as well spend the effort on a good one as a bad one.. and I would not share my resources with a dog that I was afraid to move out of the way so I could get in my car.


I feel this way EXACTLY. There are sooo many Pitbulls that haven't bitten people and would never bite a person. Then they get put down because of shelter space. Personally I would rather have the dangerous dogs euthanized and give the nice dogs a chance. It bothered me so much when I worked at the SPCA. There were frequently dogs that I would Never adopt out. They spent so much time (months or a year was not uncommon) and resources on the aggressive dogs. I knew which ones not to trust and it took the dog biting someone in the face or having the dog returned for biting a child for them to put the dog down. So damage was done to people AND friendly dogs could have taken that dogs' spot in the shelter!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

luvntzus said:


> I feel this way EXACTLY. There are sooo many Pitbulls that haven't bitten people and would never bite a person. Then they get put down because of shelter space. Personally I would rather have the dangerous dogs euthanized and give the nice dogs a chance. It bothered me so much when I worked at the SPCA. There were frequently dogs that I would Never adopt out. They spent so much time (months or a year was not uncommon) and resources on the aggressive dogs. I knew which ones not to trust and it took the dog biting someone in the face or having the dog returned for biting a child for them to put the dog down. So damage was done to people AND friendly dogs could have taken that dogs' spot in the shelter!


I learned this training horses. I would take money to train a horse.. but you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I was happy to take the money but if I had a customer present me with a horse that has a behavior that was going to ALWAYS be a concern (and it was dangerous) or with a conformation that was always going to result in questionable soundness I would sit down and have a heart to heart with the owner. 

That heart to heart started with the statement that if you want me to do this I will but it going to cost $XXX and in the end you still have ABC issues. I will do it and gladly take your money but you might be better off doing EFG with this animal. If the horse was looking at life long unsoundness due to bad conformation choices were limited.. and yes... some went off to the knacker. If the horse was a fabulous animal but had a serious mental unsoundness I would be honest about the horse's ability physically and the issue mentally. I had ONE horse like that and it was worth the effort. Others who were mentally unstable were usually not so brilliant or sound conformationally to be truly worth it and I would do what the owner wanted. It was better for all concerned to go into this eyes wide open.. cuz if they were looking for a trail horse, most passed... while if they were looking for a foundation on a 3'6" hunter, most would fail. 

My point was that it was just as much work to train a bad one as a good one.. so you might as well start with a good one (physically sound at least). 

I cut dogs a LOT more slack (most are pets) but dogs that bite repeatedly have a very short card.. they are so easily replaced with much better dogs.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> I learned this training horses. I would take money to train a horse.. but you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I was happy to take the money but if I had a customer present me with a horse that has a behavior that was going to ALWAYS be a concern (and it was dangerous) or with a conformation that was always going to result in questionable soundness I would sit down and have a heart to heart with the owner.
> 
> That heart to heart started with the statement that if you want me to do this I will but it going to cost $XXX and in the end you still have ABC issues. I will do it and gladly take your money but you might be better off doing EFG with this animal. If the horse was looking at life long unsoundness due to bad conformation choices were limited.. and yes... some went off to the knacker. If the horse was a fabulous animal but had a serious mental unsoundness I would be honest about the horse's ability physically and the issue mentally. I had ONE horse like that and it was worth the effort. Others who were mentally unstable were usually not so brilliant or sound conformationally to be truly worth it and I would do what the owner wanted. It was better for all concerned to go into this eyes wide open.. cuz if they were looking for a trail horse, most passed... while if they were looking for a foundation on a 3'6" hunter, most would fail.
> 
> ...


Sitting down and having a face to face conversation with an owner is always the best idea, especially after having asked the right questions and taking a detailed history. Suggesting that someone should kill their dog and get a better one based on a short post on the internet, not so much. While there are, sadly some dogs who will need to be destroyed because they are so miswired or because their owners are so unwilling or unable to manage them, I don't think dogs are disposable or interchangable. I'd never tell anyone to kill their dog and go get a better one.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I'd never tell anyone to kill their dog and go get a better one.


I do understand the above but 



> Honestly, if I were in the OP's shoes I would find a new BF. He is not willing to do the hard thing with this dog (and the hard thing is muzzle, train, behaviorist.. if they can find one, or PTS the dog which is my suggestion since the dog had bitten multiple times.. Bite inhibition or no).


But I would have to say I also agree with the amount of very good dogs out there looking for a home. This dog sounds like a tough dog to work and live with, he indeed could end up hurting somebody severely. While there may be some miracle workers that could possibly fix this animal, I would not want to be the one gambling on the outcome of the miracle workers. I don't have much patience with dogs that bite for no apparent reason. That's just me though.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Here is the thing.. and Pawz can risk it maybe in her State... but here in NY if this dog were brought to me I would send them to the Vet or the kill shelter and tell them to do what needs doing. It is not that a dog cannot be fixed.. it is that if you get involved as a trainer you best have damned good insurance because when the owner does not follow instructions and does not follow thru and you are in the chain as a 'trainer' and the dog finally hurts someone.. Guess Who they are gonna sue? Dog's owners and the trainer.. NOT worth it. NOT. And if it is a kid scarred for life.. REALLY NOT worth it.

I did not like to dispose of the bad horses and I do not like to dispose of a dog either. They need to see a behaviorist. They need to part with real hard cash. They need to be committed to seeing this thru and they need to understand that after all that money PTS may STILL be the answer. 

Most people will not spend a lot of money on what a human aggressive Pit Bull needs. Fact is, a dog like this usually ends up chained to a dog house in the back yard and is fed and watered and never leaves the spot until the dog dies. And that is a lucky dog (he is getting food and water and a dog house). My suggestion of PTS is a lot nicer. 

Again.. it is not the dog.. it is the Owner's committment levels to financial outlay and consistant work that is always up for question. In addition to the adults, there is a child in the equation as well. If they think the money is worth spending and are committed to working this thru and are willing to risk the kid getting bitten (even accidentally) then they can have at it. 

My point is most are not gonna do this.. and there are dogs out there on death row that would fit the mix much much better with far less risk that have never been inclined to bite anything other than dog food. If you are gonna dispose of a dog, which one should die? 

Remember.. the dog has already shown it will bite and has already shown aggression.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> Here is the thing.. and Pawz can risk it maybe in her State... but here in NY if this dog were brought to me I would send them to the Vet or the kill shelter and tell them to do what needs doing. It is not that a dog cannot be fixed.. it is that if you get involved as a trainer you best have damned good insurance because when the owner does not follow instructions and does not follow thru and you are in the chain as a 'trainer' and the dog finally hurts someone.. Guess Who they are gonna sue? Dog's owners and the trainer.. NOT worth it. NOT. And if it is a kid scarred for life.. REALLY NOT worth it.
> 
> I did not like to dispose of the bad horses and I do not like to dispose of a dog either. They need to see a behaviorist. They need to part with real hard cash. They need to be committed to seeing this thru and they need to understand that after all that money PTS may STILL be the answer.
> 
> ...


Except that we aren't talking about professional advice given to a client after taking a full history and meeting the people and the dog. We're talking about telling someone to kill their dog and get another over the internet based on very little information.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm not really getting the "kill the dog now" vibe from this thread.....I see people advising to get the do professional help ASAP or if unable or unwilling to do that....then PTS is probably the best/only responsible alternative


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> I'm not really getting the "kill the dog now" vibe from this thread.....I see people advising to get the do professional help ASAP or if unable or unwilling to do that....then PTS is probably the best/only responsible alternative


I've only gotten that vibe frome a few of the posts. And honestly, while kill the dog is sometimes the best option, the internet is not the place to be giving that sort of advice about a dog you've never met.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I've only gotten that vibe frome a few of the posts. And honestly, while kill the dog is sometimes the best option, the internet is not the place to be giving that sort of advice about a dog you've never met.


All you can do over the net is base advice on the info the op gives......if your posting on the web for advice ...I don't see anything wrong with giving an opinon based on the info given.....if your going to take the advice of strangers ( for the most part) with out doing your own research or speaking to a trained professional then you (general you) have more then just dog problems : ) 

If your not comfortable giving certain options ...then don't.......but I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone on the forum what to post and what not to post ( with in forum rules )


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> All you can do over the net is base advice on the info the op gives......if your posting on the web for advice ...I don't see anything wrong with giving an opinon based on the info given.....if your going to take the advice of strangers ( for the most part) with out doing your own research or speaking to a trained professional then you (general you) have more then just dog problems : )
> 
> If your not comfortable giving certain options ...then don't.......but I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone on the forum what to post and what not to post ( with in forum rules )


Just because someone solicits serious advice on the internet about a situation which should be addressed by a professional in person doesn't mean one needs to enable them. As to telling anyone what to post here . . . really? I don't have that sort of authoritiy. Not a moderator. I can only express an opinion. Just like you can.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm not sure its possible to enable someone over the internet ....quite a bit of a stretch IMO....enable them to do what exactly?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> I'm not sure its possible to enable someone over the internet ....quite a bit of a stretch IMO....enable them to do what exactly?


Enable them to get bad advice for free by being willing to give it.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Enable them to get bad advice for free by being willing to give it.


Bad advice in your opinion ...which may or may not actually be bad advice ...

Basically what your saying is that none of us should post any advice on any of the threads in fear that we may enable someone with bad advice ?..LOL


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> Bad advice in your opinion ...which may or may not actually be bad advice ...
> 
> Basically what your saying is that none of us should post any advice on any of the threads in fear that we may enable someone with bad advice ?..LOL


No. Basically I'm saying that if we are talking about really dangerous behavior, or potentially serious medical situations (my dog has been throwing up blood for three days, what should I do?) MY advice is going to be "find a good behavior expert" or "get him to your vet." Even if I am a professional trainer, or even if I were a vet. Maybe especially then. You (and everyone else here) may make your own judgment calls. I can't make you do what I would do. But I can say what my opinion is.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Which is what almost all if not every poster on this thread has advised the OP to do....so I guess what I'm confused about is why /or what you are disagreeing with ?...what bad advice have we enable the OP with ?.... what is the point of telling people not to do something that hasn't been done ....


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> Which is what almost all if not every poster on this thread has advised the OP to do....so I guess what I'm confused about is why /or what you are disagreeing with ?...what bad advice have we enable the OP with ?.... what is the point of telling people not to do something that hasn't been done ....


The only advice I'm disagreeing with is "kill the dog because there are better dogs in the shelter." In fact, that might be the inevitable end result. But I don't think dogs are disposable, or interchangable, and I don't think one should make that call without having the full story and meeting the dog. If you haven't said that, you're free to say what you like. If you have said that (don't recall) you are still free to say what you like, and I'm free to disagree.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> The only advice I'm disagreeing with is "kill the dog because there are better dogs in the shelter." In fact, that might be the inevitable end result. But I don't think dogs are disposable, or interchangable, and I don't think one should make that call without having the full story and meeting the dog. If you haven't said that, you're free to say what you like. If you have said that (don't recall) you are still free to say what you like, and I'm free to disagree.


See I don't think anyone has siad that to the OP...I see where people stated that they would not keep an HA dog in their household while there are other non agressive dogs dieing in shelters they could give a home too.....that has nothing to do with what the OP should do with thier paticular dog .....just what each poster would do given a bad situation......

I also think there is some confustion because some statments you make are stated as facts and some as opinons...of course this is just my interpretaon so maybe I'm just misunderstanding your posts


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> I also think there is some confustion because some statments you make are stated as facts and some as opinons...of course this is just my interpretaon so maybe I'm just misunderstanding your posts


So, which are my facts, and which are my opinions?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I've only gotten that vibe frome a few of the posts. And honestly, while kill the dog is sometimes the best option, the internet is not the place to be giving that sort of advice about a dog you've never met.


This comes off as a statement of Fact



Pawzk9 said:


> No. Basically I'm saying that if we are talking about really dangerous behavior, or potentially serious medical situations (my dog has been throwing up blood for three days, what should I do?) MY advice is going to be "find a good behavior expert" or "get him to your vet." Even if I am a professional trainer, or even if I were a vet. Maybe especially then. You (and everyone else here) may make your own judgment calls. I can't make you do what I would do. But I can say what my opinion is.





Pawzk9 said:


> The only advice I'm disagreeing with is "kill the dog because there are better dogs in the shelter." In fact, that might be the inevitable end result. But I don't think dogs are disposable, or interchangable, and I don't think one should make that call without having the full story and meeting the dog. If you haven't said that, you're free to say what you like. If you have said that (don't recall) you are still free to say what you like, and I'm free to disagree.


This comes off as an opinion

this combined with no poster telling the OP to PTS the dog w/out seeking advice of a qualified individual evaluating the dog....is what is confusing


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> This comes off as a statement of Fact
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's my opinoin that people shouldn't give advice to PTS without being in a direct relationship with the owner and the dog (i.e. personal observation, history, etc.) It's also my opinion that has been done in this thread. I'd hope you're not trying to tell me how to post since you seem really admamant that people shouldn't do that.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> It's my opinoin that people shouldn't give advice to PTS without being in a direct relationship with the owner and the dog (i.e. personal observation, history, etc.) It's also my opinion that has been done in this thread. I'd hope you're not trying to tell me how to post since you seem really admamant that people shouldn't do that.


Actually I would not presume to tell anyone HOW to post....I stated that everyone has the right to post what ever advice they want to give....good or bad ..as is your right to agree or disagree with that advice or give alternate advice ..and ...its up to the OP to do with that advice what they want 

What I did state is that I don't agree with telling other members what advice is or isn't ok to post about on the internet ...I would also not presume to tell another member that they are enabling someone by giving an opinion over the internet

Since this conversation seems to be taking a turn into a passive aggressive tone.....and in danger of hijacking the thread ....I will just say maybe we should just agree to disagree on the matter


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pugmom said:


> Since this conversation seems to be taking a turn into a passive aggressive tone.....and in danger of hijacking the thread ....I will just say maybe we should just agree to disagree on the matter


I will absolutely agree with this.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> All you can do over the net is base advice on the info the op gives......if your posting on the web for advice ...I don't see anything wrong with giving an opinon based on the info given.....if your going to take the advice of strangers ( for the most part) with out doing your own research or speaking to a trained professional then you (general you) have more then just dog problems : )


I got to agree with above and I realize maybe in this world nowadays all posters should have 4 or more disclaimers on any replies posted. Of course all replies would be much longer and by the time you got through reading the disclaimers some would forget what original problem was, Whoops (disclaimer here) At least I probably would forget what problem was and who I am.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> I've only gotten that vibe frome a few of the posts. And honestly, while kill the dog is sometimes the best option, the internet is not the place to be giving that sort of advice about a dog you've never met.


I don't see anything wrong with it. This is a forum for advice- and I find it refreshing that many posters are honest with people, even if the truth is painful. Also I think you're simplifying the issue- the advice I saw was get the dog professional help and if you can't be committed to it then PTS and I completely agree with it. So far from what the OP has said this dog is a danger not only to OP and her child but to the general public because it seems her boyfriend is not as serious about the issue as he needs to be.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Bones said:


> I don't see anything wrong with it. This is a forum for advice- and I find it refreshing that many posters are honest with people, even if the truth is painful. Also I think you're simplifying the issue- the advice I saw was get the dog professional help and if you can't be committed to it then PTS and I completely agree with it. So far from what the OP has said this dog is a danger not only to OP and her child but to the general public because it seems her boyfriend is not as serious about the issue as he needs to be.


So . . . if the dog were potentially seriously ill, would you make home-remedy suggestions or tell them they need to get the dog to a vet ASAP? As to what the OP has said, I have to say that people tend to be very poor observers of what is going on with a dog. I've had people describe goofy reactive puppies, or mouthy puppies without bite inhibition as horribly aggressive, and I've had some really pretty scary dogs brought in who were described as well behaved (generally because they were too frozen to move). I had one lady telling me that her 4 month old golden retriever puppy showed teeth every time she or one of the kids ask the pup to do anything. The behavior she was so afraid of was a submissive grin. So yeah, I'd want to see the behavior (or at least the precursers to the behavior) and ask the right questions before I even suggested killing a dog who put teeth on a human in a way designed NOT to cause harm. I've also found that many times when a human relationship is involved, the problem is more about the humans and less about the dog, or becomes about the dog when the dog observes how one party isn't supporting the other one. So, I'll give lots of advice on issues like loose leash walking and potty training. When it involves something rather more serious for both the dog and the people involved, I think it is unwise to suggest too much about what should be done (other than see a professional). And if the person is unwilling to see the professional and follow through with training (and sometimes even if they are) the outcome may be euthanasia. But as a unknown person, giving advice to someone I can't really interview on a dog I can't see, I don't think that's my place. Others may certainly do what they want. And I may comment on it.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> So . . . if the dog were potentially seriously ill, would you make home-remedy suggestions or tell them they need to get the dog to a vet ASAP? As to what the OP has said, I have to say that people tend to be very poor observers of what is going on with a dog. I've had people describe goofy reactive puppies, or mouthy puppies without bite inhibition as horribly aggressive, and I've had some really pretty scary dogs brought in who were described as well behaved (generally because they were too frozen to move). I had one lady telling me that her 4 month old golden retriever puppy showed teeth every time she or one of the kids ask the pup to do anything. The behavior she was so afraid of was a submissive grin. So yeah, I'd want to see the behavior (or at least the precursers to the behavior) and ask the right questions before I even suggested killing a dog who put teeth on a human in a way designed NOT to cause harm. I've also found that many times when a human relationship is involved, the problem is more about the humans and less about the dog, or becomes about the dog when the dog observes how one party isn't supporting the other one. So, I'll give lots of advice on issues like loose leash walking and potty training. When it involves something rather more serious for both the dog and the people involved, I think it is unwise to suggest too much about what should be done (other than see a professional). And if the person is unwilling to see the professional and follow through with training (and sometimes even if they are) the outcome may be euthanasia. But as a unknown person, giving advice to someone I can't really interview on a dog I can't see, I don't think that's my place. Others may certainly do what they want. And I may comment on it.


You're describing apples and oranges here. An ill dog doesn't pose a danger to owner or the public. The dog described in the post does. Also- from what I read everyone has suggested getting professional help, however, the euthanasia was suggested if they are not serious about getting the dog help or at least following through. From what the op described the dog is a liability and a potential danger to not only the op but the public at large. I think it would be irresponsible to represent the situation otherwise.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> The only advice I'm disagreeing with is "kill the dog because there are better dogs in the shelter." In fact, that might be the inevitable end result. But I don't think dogs are disposable, or interchangable, and I don't think one should make that call without having the full story and meeting the dog. If you haven't said that, you're free to say what you like. If you have said that (don't recall) you are still free to say what you like, and I'm free to disagree.


If I could paraphrase some of those who have put the "PTS" aspect out there, they've basically said: get help from a professional behaviorist/trainer, but be prepared for the "putting to sleep" option, because it may want to consider it. No one has said, based on what the OP posted, putting your dog to sleep is best. They've all said, "get help, but PTS is an option, and here's why...."

If you post on the internet, you get all sorts of advice. We give our opinion. The OP takes it all in, and decides. They could take some of it/all of it/none of it. Some advice, I agree, can be irresponsible, especially when dealing with medical issues. But, no one said, "hey, this dog needs to be put down." Everyone is advocating getting help.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> Again.. it is not the dog.. it is the Owner's committment levels to financial outlay and consistant work that is always up for question. In addition to the adults, there is a child in the equation as well. If they think the money is worth spending and are committed to working this thru and are willing to risk the kid getting bitten (even accidentally) then they can have at it.


I did say this. If the OP is willing to take the risk and has the committment (money, time effort), then go for it. 

If they don't, and the dog has bitten repeatedly.. then the answer is dog on a chain attached to a dog house and fed/watered (hopefully) or PTS and replaced with a dog that is not so willing to bite or act aggressively. 

The OP can and will do what they want. They asked advice. Advice on the internet is mostly opionion. What they do in response (or not) is their choice and only their action is fact (I did/am doing XYZ). 

Pr'ly have asked on a number of forums the same question. 

I cannot believe anyone would put a dog to sleep based on an internet forum. I find most posts here like this a decision has already been made and the poster is often looking for verification. Not always.. but frequently.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

doxiemommy said:


> If I could paraphrase some of those who have put the "PTS" aspect out there, they've basically said: get help from a professional behaviorist/trainer, but be prepared for the "putting to sleep" option, because it may be the best bet. No one has said, based on what the OP posted, putting your dog to sleep is best. They've all said, "get help, but PTS is an option, and here's why...."
> 
> If you post on the internet, you get all sorts of advice. We give our opinion. The OP takes it all in, and decides. They could take some of it/all of it/none of it. Some advice, I agree, can be irresponsible, especially when dealing with medical issues. But, no one said, "hey, this dog needs to be put down." Everyone is advocating getting help.


Actually, there were a few posts that suggested (if I may paraphrase) that since there are a lot of really nice dogs facing death in the shelter, it's not logical to put much effort into one who is not "really nice" Kill it and adopt another.



Elana55 said:


> I did say this. If the OP is willing to take the risk and has the committment (money, time effort), then go for it.
> <snip>
> The OP can and will do what they want. They asked advice. Advice on the internet is mostly opionion. What they do in response (or not) is their choice and only their action is fact (I did/am doing XYZ).
> 
> <snip>I find most posts here like this a decision has already been made and the poster is often looking for verification. Not always.. but frequently.


cropped to the part I'm responding to. Hope that's okay. Actually the dog doesn't belong to the OP. So the only thing that person will do is decide whether or not they will continue a relationship that puts them in contact with this dog.



Elana55 said:


> I cannot believe anyone would put a dog to sleep based on an internet forum..


You might be surprised how seriously people take advice from the internet.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Actually, there were a few posts that suggested (if I may paraphrase) that since there are a lot of really nice dogs facing death in the shelter, it's not logical to put much effort into one who is not "really nice" Kill it and adopt another.


I guess I'm being a bit nitpicky, but there were 2 people who posted directly following Elana's post that mentioned PTS, and they agreed with her, dogs in shelters, etc. _One of the two had previously posted that a behaviorist/trainer was needed_. So, as I said, no one is really straight out saying, put this dog to sleep and get a better one. Even those who agree that there are safer dogs being put to sleep every day in shelters, they are still saying, first, get help.

That is the overwhelming trend on this topic. First, get help, but this is an option you may want to consider.

And, as for people taking advice on the internet, those are probably the same people who'd take advice from someone waiting in line at the post office, or grocery store, or in the waiting room at the doctor's office. If they need help, ask for advice, and don't follow it up with their own research, is that our fault? Should we tailor our opinions?
And, yes, a few more people posted since then, agreeing, but not going into details about there being better dogs out there, so PTS this one.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> You might be surprised how seriously people take advice from the internet.


(just responding to this)

If that is the case, then Home sapiens are just getting less and less able to think, reason, and solve problems. 

No wonder I do not allow these animals to live in the house with me!


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

LOL Elana! I totally agree. I'm not responsible, nor should anyone be, for someone else's inability to think for themselves.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Why ask for advice if you have no intention of paying attention to it? Why give advice if you don't think anyone would take it? Personally, if I found that the advice I'd given ended in a tragedy, I'd feel pretty rotten. Even if the person following my advice was stupid enough to take it, and it was bad. But that's just me. I feel responsible for what I say and write.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Why ask for advice if you have no intention of paying attention to it? Why give advice if you don't think anyone would take it? Personally, if I found that the advice I'd given ended in a tragedy, I'd feel pretty rotten. Even if the person following my advice was stupid enough to take it, and it was bad. But that's just me. I feel responsible for what I say and write.


But is that going to stop you from giving advice on this forum?......sometimes bad things happen that are out of our control

lets say you didn't know it was bad advice ....no malicious intent

like if you advise an owner to try a certain type of food since they are having issues with allergies...and the dog has a horrible reaction and dies

or you advise a person to ask there vet about a medication to help another members dog with motion sickness...they give the dog the meds and the dog has a reaction and dies.....?


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Why ask for advice if you have no intention of paying attention to it? Why give advice if you don't think anyone would take it? Personally, if I found that the advice I'd given ended in a tragedy, I'd feel pretty rotten. Even if the person following my advice was stupid enough to take it, and it was bad. But that's just me. I feel responsible for what I say and write.


People generally ask for advice when they're not sure what to do. Then, they get a variety of responses and advice. Some of it, they may say to themselves "oh, yes, I see, that might help, maybe I'll try it." Some of it, they may say, "oh, no, I'm NOT going to do that, I don't agree with that." Some of it they may say "makes sense, but I don't think it will work in my situation, I'll keep looking for another solution".

When people ask advice, they're asking for advice, tips, things that may have worked for other people in similar situations. There is very seldom ONE right answer to a question that someone posts on the internet. It's like brainstorming to find something that works.

Let's say I post a topic about my dog pulling, barking, and lunging, and just acting out when other dogs walk by (which does tend to happen, as Harper is reactive on a leash). In fact, I have posted, long ago, about this. Anyway, I may get a variety of responses like: 
- use a choke collar so you have control over him, and can get his attention.
- use a citronella collar (for the same reasons).
- use treats to get his attention.
- turn and leave the area.
- try a calming remedy, like Rescue Remedy.
- work under his threshold to do some conditioning.

I can tell you right now that I will read the responses, and discard the choke collar and the citronella collar ideas because I personally don't want to use those items on my dog, who's already upset anyway. The treat idea, I may not try if he's past his threshold. The others, I may try, depending on each situation.
Just because I ask for advice doesn't mean I have to use it. It means I'm asking for opinions on what might work. If I don't choose to use someone's advice, it doesn't mean I'm _not paying attention to it_, I WILL pay attention to it, but I may decide it doesn't work for US.

If the advice I gave didn't work, or ended badly, of course I would feel bad, the same as I would feel bad if I gave a friend marriage advice, and they still ended up getting a divorce. BUT, there are lots of factors that go into someone's decisions, and my advice would just be one part. One thing I have learned from being a teacher for 15 years is that you can guide and offer advice (or instruction, in school), but, what someone ends up doing is up to them. I'm not going to stop giving advice (or instruction, in school), just because some goofball, irresponsible person, simpleton, whatever word you want to insert, decides to do their own thing regardless.


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