# Pinning an Aggressive, Possessive, and Dominant Dog



## rainwalker (Apr 18, 2013)

hello all,

my partner inherited her grandmother's dog about two months ago. she's a pretty tiny corgi mix. we have another, larger herding dog, who came from an abusive household and can be extremely submissive and skittish. the smaller dog, "mini", has been and continues to be protective of my partner and territorial around the larger dog "lou", to the point of growling at us whenever our actions bother her (coming close to/kissing my partner, in my case, or coming close to my partner or close to mini's area, in lou's).

i have been becoming increasingly dissatisfied with her behavior, and have been actively looking for an opportunity to scold her, the last few days. an opportunity didn't come until last night, and WOW, was i surprised by the event.

my partner's younger brother passed away, recently, and we were in the family kitchen making arrangements for the wake. i don't know who at, but for some reason mini started growling. my partner was sitting next to her, on the couch. as soon as i heard her growling, i immediately jumped out of my chair, stood over her, and yelled rather loudly (where "loudly" is LOUD and possibly frightening, but not my top-level loud voice... maybe a 7/10 loudness), "No! BAD! BAD!", to which - to my shock - she responded by amping up in an extreme way, huffing and growling wildly and snarling and i believe also snapping when my point finger was getting near her. i continued by escalating my yelling (never to my loudest voice, though), while she continued escalating her own. eventually, it seemed too upsetting to the mourning family, so i quit.

my partner and i understand that she may be "resource guarding". my partner failed to leave the room immediately, which may have helped. but, in two months of trying to use that method (albeit slightly irregularly), she's only gotten a little worse in her behavior. i'm just about at my wit's end.

now, to be clear, i am a human being of the highest moral caliber. i studied philosophy, i believe that our ethical commitment to the universe is to decrease suffering and improve happiness, i've read plenty of animal ethicist Peter Singer's material, and - although i am definitely not at all a dog enthusiast, i do like dogs and i very well may end up keeping them throughout much of life.

my partner, however, doesn't think that i have an ethical commitment to the dog. she considers herself to be the greater moral authority, because - at this point - i firmly believe that we ought to be pinning this dog and holding her mouth shut, when she behaves this way. this notion terrifies my partner. i have never hit - nor would i ever hit - any animal (unless it was hitting me or someone else, of course). in my opinion, even the nose-tap scolding that my partner does is an offensive, albeit mildly, way of hitting a dog. i believe that pinning a snarling and threatening dog is the same as subduing a threatening and snarling person; quite the opposite of violent, it is protective and peace-enforcing.

my desire to pin this dog is entirely guttural. everything in my core tells me to stop this behavior immediately, by any means necessary; it is virtually instinctual. i am so deeply offended that any living being, whether human or dog, would dare to growl and snap at any other living being in my home. i am simply not ok with this kind of vile behavior. i feel that pinning her, holding her mouth closed, and waiting until she calms down will teach her that growling behavior leads to a silencing reaction. if she were a human being, i would ask her to leave and then i would physically remove her. and maybe that's a better place to start, but i am having a very difficult time keeping to a cool reaction, about this; i absolutely want this dog to be as deeply offended by my reaction and as i am by her action. 

it's led, now, to an argument between my partner and i, about whether or not i should even live in the house, if i am going to exercise this "violent" behavior on her dog. before anyone worries about our personal relationship, i'm sure she's just feeling triggered by the event and that she would rather live with me than the dog (except that she's not going to get rid of her recently-deceased grandmother's dog).

and in case the astute are wondering, this dog has not come from an abusive home. this dog came from about 10 years of pure love and food-off-the-table spoiling, from my partner's grandmother. the dog has never wanted for any love or food, as i understand it.

one final plea: i am a kind man, who takes great pride in being a selfless, generous, and caring member of my community. i am also a political activist who has no problems getting into clashes with authority, especially in defense of other human beings. i like dogs plenty, but i cannot reconcile myself to living with this behavior; as a good and active human being, i find it simply unacceptable. i don't want that to lead to the removal of this dog from our home or, worse, to the unraveling of my relationship with my partner. i know that the act of pinning terrifies many dog lovers, but i am asking all of you knowledgeable folks, from the bottom of my heart, to put our species first: please give me permission to pin this dog, so that i can get my partner's support :wave:

it is worth mentioning that mini has not been formally trained and is entirely unresponsive to most commands, while being loosely responsive to "come" and "sit", if there's something she really wants. we're enrolling her in these classes immediately, but i sincerely doubt that it is going to resolve her more possessive and domineering qualities.

thank you for your patience reading through all of this, and for all of your help in addressing it!

peter


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Pinning isn't going to fix anything - at all. It's going to make the dog worse, and get you bitten. Don't do it. 

Dogs growl to communicate. Punishing a dog for that is dumb. It makes the dog more likely to not growl and TO bite, without giving you that 'hey, back off, I'm not okay' warning. The dog isn't violent or aggressive. She's not dominant - dog dominance isn't a thing (google dog dominance, debunked - I'm not doing this debate again). If the dog's uncomfortable you need to make her comfortable with you, not pin her and make her LESS comfortable. The behavior you're using on this dog is total overkill and inappropriate. It would be inappropriate for any dog. For this one in the situations you've described it's more so. Don't yell in her face, don't rile her up, don't scold her for growling, and sure as HECK don't PIN HER.

Just don't. She's not your dog, it's not your decision, anyway. Even if it was valid dog training IT'S NOT YOUR DOG. 

And frankly, if you were my partner and were handling my dog in such a manner, after being told not to, I'd kick you to the curb. 

The dog isn't going to get trained unless she's taught. Once she's taught you can work on building a relationship with her and exercising some control over her - Nothing In Life Is Free is good, google NILF and dog. Do the classes. Get a book or read something by Ian Dunbar. Research. Do it right. Treat the DOG and your partner with the compassion you say you have. SHOW that compassion to your partner. Don't see the dog as a treat to you. I mean, dude, really? You're how big and how old and have thumbs and mental capacity this dog doesn't. She's not a threat to you. Chill out, take some deep breaths, remind yourself it's an animal, do some research into how to communicate and train and don't take this personally. It isn't. She's a dog.


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## rainwalker (Apr 18, 2013)

well, it's also worth mentioning that i've had the exact opposite experience with two previous dogs, who were quite responsive to pinning. it was when i was younger and i don't remember all of the details of the situations, but i know that the one dog who today survives (and lives with my parents in another state) absolutely loves me, goes wild with happiness when she sees, and - since being pinned a couple of times - does not ever question my commands. i understand you get these questions a lot and that it's tiring to respond to them, so no worries there - however, the blanket statement "pinning isn't going to fix anything" flies in the face of the reality that i have experienced with two separate dogs, so it is literally impossible for me to trust that statement. i'm the calm and loving type, but i'm also the rational type. i don't believe that pinning would hurt this dog and i know from personal experience that it has helped a handful of times in many years past.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

rainwalker said:


> well, it's also worth mentioning that i've had the exact opposite experience with two previous dogs, who were quite responsive to pinning. it was when i was younger and i don't remember all of the details of the situations, but i know that the one dog who today survives (and lives with my parents in another state) absolutely loves me, goes wild with happiness when she sees, and - since being pinned a couple of times - does not ever question my commands. i understand you get these questions a lot and that it's tiring to respond to them, so no worries there - however, the blanket statement "pinning isn't going to fix anything" flies in the face of the reality that i have experienced with two separate dogs, so it is literally impossible for me to trust that statement. i'm the calm and loving type, but i'm also the rational type. i don't believe that pinning would hurt this dog and i know from personal experience that it has helped a handful of times in many years past.


Let me rephrase that: Pinning is not the best fix for anything, there are alternatives that will work better with every dog, without the risk of damage pinning has to many dogs. Can it work? Sure. It can also make things a thousand times worse. The positive methods will never make anything worse. And you're dealing with an insecure dog, not a rock solid one one, or a dominant one. That means pinning THIS dog is going to make things a thousand times worse, get you bitten, and result in a dog who is either afraid of you, and either reacts out of fear or comes after you every time she sees you. 

Some dogs do fine with being hit regularly as a means of discipline. That doesn't mean it's the best way to do things, and there aren't consequences. That you didn't see those consequences in TWO dogs means you got LUCKY. That doesn't mean you should use those examples as the reason to keep doing things that CLEARLY didn't work with the dog that's here NOW.

And if you are Buddhist, or follow those teachings... the least harm possible should be your goal. This dog is unhappy and was clearly made less so by your method. As was your partner. There are methods that will not distress her, or your partner. Look into those, with the training classes, NILF, or I'll get back to you with a longer reply as soon as I am able.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Please stop... this poor dog. As a corgi owner this breaks my heart. It is in the breed's nature to be bossy and they have a natural tendency to resource guard. That does not give you license to physically overpower and frighten the dog. You say she's small, so she can't weigh more than 20 lbs. Ask yourself what the hell a grown man is doing physically harassing a small dog? It is your_ obligation_ as this dog's owner and as a human being with higher brain function to find a better way to handle this dog. 

I am a professional dog trainer and corgi lover, and I find the act of pinning dogs or grabbing muzzles deplorable. And what's more, _it doesn't work_. 

If you are willing to put aside this ridiculous notion that the dog needs to be physically punished, there are many, many ways to improve her behavior. Myself and many others on here will be happy to share some techniques with you. It's nice that you tell yourself you'd never hit a dog, but frankly pinning her isn't much better and in some ways worse. 

If not, then you will likely end up bitten and the poor dog will pay for your willing ignorance. 

Please watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-15QnSF_tZ8 The man speaking is a highly respected dog trainer who is extremely successful in his field. He deals with aggressive dogs and _dogs taught to bite/fight humans._ He is not a "never say no" trainer and does use physical correction at select times, so if you're looking for an "unbiased" source, here's one. I do not agree with everything he does but this video is a succinct way of explaining why any hands on physical correction is potentially disastrous, especially pinning. (And please realize that the part where he says "I punch them, kick them, break a stick over their head" is sarcasm. I hope that's evident but you never know...). He handles dogs that are far more difficult than your corgi mix.

There is no excuse for pinning your dog except for ignorance. If you've read what we've wrote, then you no longer have that excuse and you need to cease this behavior immediately.


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## AkCrimson (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm not even going to get into it....You have to stop and re learn what you THINK you know about dogs. Please listen to the advice you're getting, for the sake of you and your pups. I promise you will see better results if you learn the correct methods of dealing with your issues


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Here. Watch this:






The stuff you really want is at the end, b ut watch it all. It's only 8 minutes long. (I seem to have linked it to nearly the end of the video. Just slide the bar back).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

rainwalker said:


> well, it's also worth mentioning that i've had the exact opposite experience with two previous dogs, who were quite responsive to pinning. it was when i was younger and i don't remember all of the details of the situations, but i know that the one dog who today survives (and lives with my parents in another state) absolutely loves me, goes wild with happiness when she sees, and - since being pinned a couple of times - does not ever question my commands. i understand you get these questions a lot and that it's tiring to respond to them, so no worries there - however, the blanket statement "pinning isn't going to fix anything" flies in the face of the reality that i have experienced with two separate dogs, so it is literally impossible for me to trust that statement. i'm the calm and loving type, but i'm also the rational type. i don't believe that pinning would hurt this dog and i know from personal experience that it has helped a handful of times in many years past.


This dog is not those dogs. All pinning has taught THIS dog that you are a scary, unpredictable person who will make a situation that she is already uneasy about even scarier. If you pin this dog, I will virtually guarantee that you will get bitten.

Read the stickies about NILIF and resource guarding. The blog dogstardaily.com also has some good articles about resource guarding.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

You're Buddhist, really? Because I've read the teachings of the Buddha, and pretty much everything His Holiness the Dalai Lama has written (well, in English) and I don't recall either the original Buddha or the incarnation of the Buddha's spirit of compassion advocating yelling and violence.

HHDL: *Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them.*

You excuse your actions by defining violence as one thing- hitting. I tell you that is foolish rationalization. Yelling is violence. Pinning is violence. Threatening is violence.

Make this dog's life better. Or, if you can't do that, don't make it worse.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You sound like someone who enjoys reading and learning, so here are some things for you to read. Some of the links are about dominance theory (where the idea of pinning a dog comes from) and some are about punishment-based techniques in general.

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog
Wolf expert L. David Mech's site (he helped popularize the whole "pack order"/alpha/dominance thing, but later learned that much of what he believed was wrong)
Enforcing vs. Reinforcing – Reflections on Leadership and Dogs
Is Punishment an Effective Way to Change the Behavior of Dogs?
AVSAB Position Statement on The Use of Punishment for Behavior Modification in Animals
Leader of the Pack

Also relevant: Thank Your Dog For Growling



> i believe that pinning a snarling and threatening dog is the same as subduing a threatening and snarling person; quite the opposite of violent, it is protective and peace-enforcing.


You can believe that all you like, but that's not how dogs think. When you pin a dog, that dog believes that you intend to hurt or kill it. Some dogs will submit because they are afraid. Some will fight back. Either way, it's not helping. Sorry, but I am firmly on your partner's side in this one. I would not want you living with my dogs, either.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Sounds like you do really care about doing the right thing. I think your gut reaction to remove the dog from the situation is probably correct. Only I would have your partner do the removing. Maybe let the dog drag a small leash around the house and when it begins to get bossy (try to catch it at the earliest sign), say nothing. Your partner can calmly take the leash and remove the dog to another room for 2 or 3 minutes, saying nothing. Then let it out and go on like everything is normal. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

I hope you can find a training class that uses positive methods and avoid "leadership" type classes. The reason I say this is because you say the dog escalates behavior when you escalate yours.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

You say your methods are not working... you should take that alone as a sign to try something different. Follow the advice the members of this board have given you! Someone's going to end up getting bitten if you continue to use these methods...


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I always consider with my own actions towards any situation is what are you teaching and what are they learning for the next event????? You truly have to thing into the future events. From reading your post, this dog is way up there on ability to stand pressure and respond at a higher level then what you give , for the breed I don't doubt this little dog will continue to match you and out do you on a pressure response (tit for tat in the wrong direction) (turn it around is necessary)...... The one thing is the individual that is the source of the corgi's reaction on the couch should be the one to dismiss the dog away from them and off the couch.. Or as you said they should leave both have more value to the corgi that the behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.. I have delt with many of my own 90lb GSD's and I tell them off the couch for showing any possessiveness when others humans or dogs approach it works easily because I have value to them.. When I got my second Clydesdale at 2000lbs I had no value to him, he was very confrontational even not being provoked.. He already had a higher then normal thresshold to pressure and it just made sense I could never out do him taking that route of applying pressure or stress to control his behavior and keep him in line (that would not make him a trust worthy horse as he would wait for an opportunity of my weakness to out do me, push and shove just never leads to a good future long term) , I could never win that direction, nor could I sustain having to be that way in a relationship with this horse.. I wanted Bob, to learn to come down to my level instead of trying to out do his level of interaction. You both need to work with the dog. Avoid the situation that create the event while working on building a more willing working relationship.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

[/QUOTE] You both need to work with the dog. Avoid the situation that create the event while working on building a more willing working relationship.[/QUOTE]

What wise comments, wish I had thought of those things earlier, when I first got my dog. Hope the OP reads this.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

I would start everything over with a crate.
Give the dog its own safe space to work with (its den) where it can find comfort & security.

Then slowly reintroduce it through training into its new environment.


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## SheltieQuirks (Dec 1, 2011)

I hope I don't offend you with this, but I feel compelled to say it as an animal lover and as someone who has worked with a number of "stubborn" animals, and lost my head at times.

Besides the fact that the tactic you plan on using is widely discredited, you are too emotionally hotheaded about this. You say yourself that your reaction is "gutteral." That is a problem. You are deeply offended, and you want the dog to feel the same way. I have felt the same way, and guess what? It doesn't work. I have sat there and screamed at an animal (my horse, and it was not my proudest moment), and it did diddly squat. 

The dog is NEVER going to feel the way you do. It's a dog! Growling and snapping is how they communicate. You will NEVER be able to make the dog feel as repulsed by these natural dog behaviors as you do. You will never be able to impart upon a canine the moral indignation against growling that you seem to feel very strongly. 

Please, take a step back. You admit yourself that you have a tough time keeping calm about this, and that is a huge red flag. The depth of your passion is not enough to change her from what she is, and she deserves more patience.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

rainwalker said:


> well, it's also worth mentioning that i've had the exact opposite experience with two previous dogs, who were quite responsive to pinning. it was when i was younger and i don't remember all of the details of the situations, but i know that the one dog who today survives (and lives with my parents in another state) absolutely loves me, goes wild with happiness when she sees, and - since being pinned a couple of times - does not ever question my commands. i understand you get these questions a lot and that it's tiring to respond to them, so no worries there - however, the blanket statement "pinning isn't going to fix anything" flies in the face of the reality that i have experienced with two separate dogs, so it is literally impossible for me to trust that statement. i'm the calm and loving type, but i'm also the rational type. i don't believe that pinning would hurt this dog and i know from personal experience that it has helped a handful of times in many years past.



If you pinned my dog it would bee the last thing you did ............................. in my house that is, because shortly after, would be the act of ME throwing YOU out with all your stuff. 

Pinning is counterproductive ... just dont do it. Just ... dont. Its only going to show the dog that you really cant be trusted. what your partner should do is when the dog growls at you is either put her down on the ground & disallow her on the couch for a bit, or promptly stand up (both of you) & leave the room. RG = everyone leaves & you are left alone, return after a min or so, rinse repeat.

remember it will not be a quick fix, other things you could do to speed things up is make ALL interactions btw you & the dog positive, when your partner & the dog are on the couch, walk by & toss yummy treats her way or, if you are not comfortable with this, have your partner feed them to the dog while it is looking at/can see you (but is not growling) if she is, then have your partner distract the dog with a treat.

it may take a while to see any progress, since you have validated the dogs fears by screaming, finger shaking at it. Like you said you are the smarter being ... so act like it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> it may take a while to see any progress, since you have validated the dogs fears by screaming, finger shaking at it. Like you said you are the smarter being ... so act like it.


Yes, this. When Casper was a pup, we lived with my mom and brother. My other brother visited almost every day. Casper was nervous of him, and my brother is the type of guy who thinks that dogs need to just face their fears and get over it, so one day he ran at Casper with his arms spread wide, roaring at him. Cas was terrified. After that, he hated that brother. When the brother would come over, Cas would bark and growl at him, hackles up. It took literally a year of my brother ignoring/being calm around Cas for Cas to decide that he wasn't a threat. He likes that brother now.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Hey I know it may sound like I am chastizing the OP, but I am not... i am merely talking from experience, I know we all have made mistakes & acted on our knee jerk reactions before we could stop ourselves. 

I am just trying to educate someone before they make the same mistakes I have made ... you know what the old saying says "The real defination of stupidity is doing the same thing over & over again & expecting the same result." 

OP - I'm not calling you stupid, you seem like a very smart person, but you have tried the offernsive approach to this dog & it has already proven that it didnt & is not working, so try something else.

thats the beauty of dogs, as soon as you shift your behavior, they shift theres.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

Just a short note to the OP about pinning a dog, or as some call it an alpha roll. This came about from people who watched wolves and dogs fighting and saw how it ended with one dog on its back and the other standing over it. But if you watch more carefully you will see that the victorious dog is not pushing the other dog down. When a dog wants to submit and end the fight, they roll over and expose their belly and neck. Voluntarily. Which is a completely different situation.

The majority of dogs are not fearful or angry enough at us to bite if we force them down, but some are. Even if they submit, it is likely causing harm to your relationship. If they do not submit the situation can turn very ugly and dangerous. 

I would suggest perhaps taking on more care of the dog, feeding, walking etc. See if you can get her to play with you, maybe fetch. Also do some reward based training. All these things will help build a relationship and trust with the dog. I'd also like to point out that Corgis are feisty little dogs. They were bred to herd cattle by biting them on the heels after all. Takes a courageous dog with attitude. Keep that in mind and good luck!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Three days and the OP has not responded. He's likely having a "guttural" reaction to all of us disagreeing with him.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I hope he doesn't try to pin me.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I hope he doesn't try to pin me.


When people pin me I bite


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I just hope he doesn't go with his "gut" :/


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

First I think you need to calm down. Despite your talk of Buddhism there is clearly deep frustration and anger you feel with the dog along with an intense desire to punish (you had been looking for an opportunity to scold her for days). The dog is in mourning, your wife is in mourning, you need to be making her life easier not harder - and CptJack is right, if I couldn't trust my partner not to be violent with the dog after I've explicitly said not to use those techniques, I would be pretty freaked out and angry. It might not be my place but I think you've behaved rudely in human terms as well as dog. I'm kindof shocked that at the grandmother's wake (preparation for the wake?) you screamed at her beloved dog in front of the mourning family. 

The links Cran recommended are really great and will explain why what you're doing won't work - the short answer is the dog thinks you're going to kill it. Then you need a new plan to work with the dog. I've heard good things about the book Mine! by Jean Donaldson.
You say you were surprised by the escalation she showed when you confronted her. You shouldn't be. You threatened her very directly and she responded in kind - rather similar to if a man was screaming and shaking his fist in your face.

It will probably take time to reverse the damage you've done here (the dog sees you as a threat and you've behaved like one). But it will happen slowly. You just have to stop seeing the dog as an enemy. You're the smarter and capable of forgiveness. Exercise both.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes, I know I have been irritated & mad at my dogs before but never to this extent ... Dogs don't hold grudges, they aren't like people.

I kind of wish the OP would hav stuck around ... There a lot of really knowledgeable people here hat could have help him/them. But I worry about the dog  I hope it is ok.


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