# Seven -> Ten AKC Groups



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

What are the effects of changing groups?

I've heard rumbling of the AKC going to ten groups (something like Setters/Pointers, Retrievers, Herding, Working, Sighthounds, scenthounds, non-sporting, toy, terrier, spitz) and one rumor that Dalmatians would move to Working (a much better fit IMO) among some other minor shuffling (Standard Poodles in Retrievers? Please?). 

It seems to be totally logical to me, but from what I can tell the rest of the internet thinks this is a terrible thing that will utterly ruin the AKC and every AKC registered dog. I don't even know if this is dead in the water, the most recent information I can find is from 2008 (http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/group_realignment.cfm) and 2009 (http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-blog/allan-reznik-blog/akc-s-proposed-group-realignment.aspx) and both of those seem to imply it was moving forward.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I haven't heard anything about it in awhile. I think it could be good in many instances (Non-Sporting is a terribly small group and Terriers unusually large) but it has its detriments as well. I, for one, would like to see GSDs and Dalmatians moved to Working.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

maybe in the mean time they can get rid of the ASCOB, Black, and Parti cockers and just have one Cocker Spaniel representing the breed in group, OR us Aussie people should put our four colors into varieties and P-O everybody, lol.

I don't see a problem with it, and ya standard Poodles would be moved to Sporting (AKA Retrievers)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> maybe in the mean time they can get rid of the ASCOB, Black, and Parti cockers and just have one Cocker Spaniel representing the breed in grou


THIS! I hate that there are three cockers in the dang group.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

They need to consolidate and re-organize some of the breeds/groups, that's for sure.

An issue that has split the U.S. Xolo club, was that the AKC required that for the breed to be accepted, the club had to accept that all three sizes (toy, miniature, and standard) and both varieties (coated and hairless) be shown the same ring/group. Because they don't want to have any more 'split breeds'. But to me (and many others), that was frankly insane, and not in the benefit of the breed (or the judges)... perhaps if there were fewer splits in other breeds based on silly things like coat color, they could afford to allow new breeds with legitimate varieties to be shown appropriately instead of being shoehorned into one group for the AKC's convenience.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Last I heard they have shelved the group re-allignment till who knows when. 

Pai- I'm in complete agreement with you that forcing the seperate varieties of a breed to be shown as one is not good for the breed. It allows for fads to take over a breed that reduces or eliminates genetic variations.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Same here, and while we are at it, how about the varieties of Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles and Collies? I know that is going to offend people in those breeds, but really, think logically.

Those of us showing in breeds with only one variety get ONE shot in groups. That's it. But Beagles get two, Dachshunds get three, etc.

As I ramble, it occurs to me that at least in some breeds, the varieties are not possible in the same litter. For example, you are not going to see a wire-Dachs bred to a smooth, and end up with both in a litter. But in Beagles, you can have 13" and 15" in on litter. Seems odd to me - you have a dog grow too large for one variety, but compete in another? Not fair.

However, I will say this: Splitting the hound group is a GOOD idea, IMO. I have seen MANY a good hound passed over because the judge has a bias toward sighthounds or scenthounds. And, far too often, sighthounds are the casualty. Most don't show well, and are not "flashy," thus do not attract the judges' attention, with the exception of Afghans and Whippets). A Borzoi who couldn't care less would do horribly up against a Beagle with the tail up and wagging and a happy smile. Both are typical examples of their breed's personality, but they don't compete well against each other, even if the judges are supposed to be judging against the breed standard, NOT how showy the dogs are!

"An issue that has split the U.S. Xolo club, was that the AKC required that for the breed to be accepted, the club had to accept that all three sizes (toy, miniature, and standard) and both varieties (coated and hairless) be shown the same ring/group. Because they don't want to have any more 'split breeds'. But to me (and many others), that was frankly insane, and not in the benefit of the breed (or the judges)... perhaps if there were fewer splits in other breeds based on silly things like coat color, they could afford to allow new breeds with legitimate varieties to be shown appropriately instead of being shoehorned into one group for the AKC's convenience."

Okay, these are good points - valid variety divisions are one thing. But coat color is just stupid. Or, as I said, size varieties that can occur in the same litter are just silly too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The American Cocker thing will always bother me the most. SEVERAL other breeds exhibit by color (Dobermans, Collies, Shelties, and Aussies come to mind) but they don't get one of each! Coat types I can see, but COLOR!?


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Xeph said:


> The American Cocker thing will always bother me the most. SEVERAL other breeds exhibit by color (Dobermans, Collies, Shelties, and Aussies come to mind) but they don't get one of each! Coat types I can see, but COLOR!?


Right - Dobermans, Aussies, Shelties, etc may exhibit by color, but there is still only ONE WB, WD, and BOB, not multiple based on color. I agree with this, Xeph!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I do have to admit I don't see what the point is in exhibiting by color, but at least those breeds only have one winner (Collies an exception for the smooth coat, but that's it).


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I don't know much about conformation judging, but I could never understand why some breeds like cockers and beagles have separate categories.



> I do have to admit I don't see what the point is in exhibiting by color, but at least those breeds only have one winner


Cavaliers have separate judging based on the four different colors, however, you almost never see black and tans taking top honors.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

And while we are discussing groups, can I just say that I would love to see one other change. Why can't AKC do groups like Canada and UKC: Do all breeds in the group, followed by the group right away. If I have to show early in the day, then wait till mid-afternoon for my group, it becomes a very long day. I would so much prefer to do things the Canadian/UKC way. Having shown in Canada, and in UKC, it's SO much easier to do it that way!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yeah, Sarah, but the problem is that AKC likes to put German Shepherds on at 8 AM, and the Collies on at 11, and the Shelties at 1! >.<


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Yeah, Sarah, but the problem is that AKC likes to put German Shepherds on at 8 AM, and the Collies on at 11, and the Shelties at 1! >.<


Oh, I get that. And the reason for that is that the grooming intensive breeds are often shown later, so handlers can do all their grooming at the show site. Rather than do things the logical way, and groom at home, like we sane people! I have seen so many handlers BATHING their dogs at the show site, and frankly, if you don't have enough time to bathe and groom at home, BEFORE the show, you have too many dogs to show! MHO, only, of course. But I spend almost two hours grooming the day before, so when I get to the show site, I rarely even need a grooming table. Just a quick self-rinse shampoo clean-up, and thorough brush through, and I'm ready to go!

So, no, my dream is unlikely to ever happen. But it sure would be nice!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My dogs are always bathed a day or two before the show, because I honestly NEVER see these bathing setups everybody else sees, and I don't want to worry about water temperature, missing ring time, etc. I do mist my dogs and blow out again, so I do bring my table and dryer (why am I telling you this? You've been to my setup and seen me exhibit xD), but nail trims, pad scissoring, and tooth scaling/brushing is done in advance.

The Poodle people I get, but I really don't think there's any reason for Collies and Shelties to take as long as they do. IMO, part of the problem is that they allow all this grooming time for these breeds which includes things like chalking, which is technically against the rules. Technically.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, but your breed's coat is so different than mine. Though I do know Borzoi people who soak their dogs and blow dry at the show site. I don't do this, because I find that I have so much fly-away immediately after I blow-dry.

I usually bathe weekly if I am keeping a dog in show condition. Otherwise, it's monthly.

I agree, though, all the time they give these people is what allows them to do the illegal things like chalking. But, those people doing the chalking are the ones who demand thee later times, so it becomes a vicious cycle.

I really know nothing about Poodles and how the are groomed, so I can't speak to that. But I do have some experience with Afghans, another breed that has traditionally taken a LONG time to groom ringside. Again, if the grooming is done at home, little is needed ringside. A spray with grooming spray, brush through, and detangling where necessary, and that's it! But so often, I see people taking hours on these dogs, and I really don't understand why! Maybe it's because incorrect coat texture means they have to spend more time correcting it? I see that often enough!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I don't do this, because I find that I have so much fly-away immediately after I blow-dry.


I don't do it because I #1 don't like a wet dog in my car and #2 would freeze them in the winter (you know how that goes xD).

We AKC people worry about every single little hair being in place with these dogs. Go to a show with the German dogs, there are no tables really, maybe a brush, but they go in as they are.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Xeph said:


> We AKC people worry about every single little hair being in place with these dogs. Go to a show with the German dogs, there are no tables really, maybe a brush, but they go in as they are.


And realistically, I don't understand why it can't be that way for us. I really wish it were. I can understand wanting to show a clean dog, etc., but it get's so carried away. My dog's structure is the same, whether he's dirty or clean!

I can see it to a point - a clean dog is easier to show the condition of the coat. But, at the same time, it's also relatively easy to create what isn't there. Coat conditioners, supplements, shampoos, chalks, etc, can create a very nice coat out of nothing. I had a Borzoi foster that had a CRAPPY coat, thanks to poor breeding. It was cottony as a cotton ball, and tangled instantly as soon as I ran a brush through it. But if I kept him cleaned and conditioned, and provided him with quality food and coat supplements, I could control it. How many show dogs out there, are the same way?

Same goes for trimming, sculpting and the like. I should not have to trim anything on a Borzoi but feet, but to compete, I need to do more. I need to trim ears, to lengthen the head, and make it appear narrower, and I have to trim the tuck-up, to make it appear as though he has one (he does, but the hair fills it in). This is all because OTHERS do it, and technically, it is NOT allowed per the standard.

I have been to Whippet races, where the dogs are shown afterward. They go in the ring with grass stains, bruises, scratches, and everything else, and are judged by AKC approved judges! If those judges can appreciate the dogs when they are not spotless and chalked in that venue, why can't they at AKC shows?

The truth is, dog shows have become a caricature of what they were meant to be! They are no longer a venue to receive evaluations of breeding stock. Now, increasingly, it seems like they have become a venue to show off, and stroke the humans' egos.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Can't disagree there. I wish Justin were younger, and that Mary Anne would let me buy him, lol


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Sighthounds4me said:


> Oh, I get that. And the reason for that is that the grooming intensive breeds are often shown later, so handlers can do all their grooming at the show site.


This isn't the case at the shows I've been to, and I'm showing an Afghan. We've had show times anywhere from 8:00-1:40, I've notice the same things for other grooming intensive breeds like poodles, cockers, and terriers. From what I've seen show times are determind by the judges schedules & assignment and the number of dogs exhibited. 

I'm with Xeph on grooming at home. Usually I'll groom the night before, but I have been tempted to groom the same morning if we've been given a late show time. Most of the bathing areas I've seen at shows are rather dirty and appear to have long lines. I like to put in a movie and wear pj'swhen I groom, so I would much rather groom in the comfort of my own home.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

animalcraker said:


> Pai- I'm in complete agreement with you that forcing the seperate varieties of a breed to be shown as one is not good for the breed. It allows for fads to take over a breed that reduces or eliminates genetic variations.


I mean, if they tried to pull that with Poodles, there'd be a riot. Sure, technically they are all judged to the same standard regardless of size, but still! I think it'll make showing and judging them a bigger pain than is required.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

animalcraker said:


> This isn't the case at the shows I've been to, and I'm showing an Afghan. We've had show times anywhere from 8:00-1:40, I've notice the same things for other grooming intensive breeds like poodles, cockers, and terriers. From what I've seen show times are determind by the judges schedules & assignment and the number of dogs exhibited.
> 
> I'm with Xeph on grooming at home. Usually I'll groom the night before, but I have been tempted to groom the same morning if we've been given a late show time. Most of the bathing areas I've seen at shows are rather dirty and appear to have long lines. I like to put in a movie and wear pj'swhen I groom, so I would much rather groom in the comfort of my own home.


Oh, I didn't mean to suggest it's ALWAYS that way. Just that the majority of the time, it seems to be.

I am with ya on the grooming, believe me. I typically groom outside whenever the weather is good enough. I get to wear sweats, look grubby, and no one cares! I also get to listen to birds, which is my other hobby. This year, I am pretty sure I heard a raven, which is not at all common in my area!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm confused on why some variety splits are good, and why some are bad. Does it have to do with interbreeding? What are "the rules" on breeding varieties? I know I've seen Rough and Smooth collies bred together. Or, hmmm. Maybe that was just they occurred within a litter? I am positive I have seen that, from show breeders.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I know I've seen Rough and Smooth collies bred together. Or, hmmm. Maybe that was just they occurred within a litter?


They are interbred, because they are varities. You cannot (in America) breed a Terv to a Mal and just register the dogs as "whatever they come out as". They're considered mutts here.

The "rules" vary from breed to breed


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I asked an AKC breeder of show quality Longhaired Daschunds once "Do you ever breed a longhair to a wirehair or smoothcoat?" and her answer was "No we don't, It would distroy the quality of the coat"


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I can guess who it was xD


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Was it Rhonda?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

I have heard from working terrier breeders that breeding a smooth to a wire coated dog helps keep the correct short, hard hair. Breeding wire to wire for too long can lead to the coats getting too wooly or long. Looking at pics of many terrier breeds from 50-100 years ago, it really does seem like many wirehaired breeds have gotten incorrect amounts of coat nowadays (and are more artificially achieved than natural). I think sometimes making strict separations of varieties is not always a good thing.

I was fairly sure Belgian Shepherd varieties were allowed to be crossed overseas?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Pai said:


> I have heard from working terrier breeders that breeding a smooth to a wire coated dog helps keep the correct short, hard hair. Breeding wire to wire for too long can lead to the coats getting too wooly or long.


So this would be an instance where varieties should not be split, yes?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> So this would be an instance where varieties should not be split, yes?


Seems so. I know in the early years of some breeds there was a fixation of keeping varieties 'pure' by not mixing them that was often based on faulty assumptions. This was the case with tricolor Dals too, apparently (which were favored in the breed until the late 1800s when it became believed to be a sign of 'mixed blood' between a liver and black Dal. In reality though, I think Liver spots are just a simple recessive, so a tricolor Dal would be the result of a totally different gene (not sure though, I will admit my understanding of color genes is pretty sketchy).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Old dog practices were craaaazy. Made sense at the time, but we know better now. _We should damn well be breeding better._

As for Dals, BB is black, and bb is brown. It's pretty much as simple as genetics gets. Tricolor is a little more difficult, it's more accurately black and tan with extreme white spotting and the breed-specific ticking pattern. So the color that isn't black or white is actually red, like a yellow lab and isn't even brown at all. It doesn't help that every breed has a different word for the same color. A red tri aussie or a red doberman is actually liver. The site I usually use for reference is down, but you might have seen it. Laurelin links it when the topic comes up.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Was it Rhonda?


I truly don't remember WHO it was I asked anymore, it was 2 years ago. It could have been Rhonda or it could have been someone else, Rhonda is the only Longhaired Doxie breeder I personally know but I think I was at a dog show when I asked so it could have been any number of people.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm just excited because I know her


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