# ears



## vikki (Aug 11, 2007)

when is the best time to have a boxers ears clipped and does it hurt the dog?


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

10-12 or 16 weeks can't remeber which. The doctor basicaly has to cut off a peice of the dogs ear and then stich it back up. It's a rather expensive surgery, not many doctors do it and out of those that do it not all of them are good, you'll also have to have the ears re-tapped for up to 6 months after the surgery and even then there's no gaurentee they will stand. The recovery and healing can be a very uncomfortable and painfull process for you pup, so if you don't have any special reason to be doing it then don't. You should speack with your breeder and vet about the ear-croping and what they recomend.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

You'll want to speak with your breeder and/or the local breed club- usually there is a local vet who is best at performing ear cropping and whom all the local reputable breeders prefer. Ear cropping is a PITA, learn what's involved and decide if you're up to the aftercare (which is pretty intensive) before doing it, and make SURE you have a vet who really knows how to do it properly for your breed- all crops are NOT the same!


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

12 weeks is usually the most common age to crop. As far as the pain, it's a major surgery, so I would imagine there is some pain involved, and they look so pitiful with all that tape and posts on their head. 
It's a big commitment, you have to stay on top of the taping and posting and such - depending on your dogs ear leather it can sometimes take a very long time for the ears to stand right.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have a few friends that work in Dobe rescue. I have heard that the dogs with the cropped ears place first before uncropped every time. It must still be pretty popular to have it done.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

I think it depends on the breed. You see more and more natural eared boxers these days. Especially since they modified the breed standard to allow natural eared boxers to be shown.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> I think it depends on the breed. You see more and more natural eared boxers these days. Especially since they modified the breed standard to allow natural eared boxers to be shown.


I think that's a fantastic thing!!


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## Dobermaniac (Jul 28, 2007)

There is absoloutly nothing wrong with ear cropping. Just make sure to get someone who has experience with it. Not every vet can pull it off. Dog's with cropped ears also have alot of health benefits. Hearing is improved and a far less chance of deveoloping ear infections. An ear infection is more painful than the after effect of cropping. Also, seven to nine weeks in Dobermans is the age to get them cropped. After twelve weeks there is less of a chance the dogs ear will stand correctly. However, I don't know if the same applies to boxers.



animalcraker said:


> 10-12 or 16 weeks can't remeber which.


I just checked and the he right age for a Boxer is about nine weeks. Anything above twelve weeks and chances are the ears will not stand up properly.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Dobermaniac said:


> There is absoloutly nothing wrong with ear cropping. Just make sure to get someone who has experience with it. Not every vet can pull it off. Dog's with cropped ears also have alot of health benefits. Hearing is improved and a far less chance of deveoloping ear infections. An ear infection is more painful than the after effect of cropping. Also, seven to nine weeks in Dobermans is the age to get them cropped. After twelve weeks there is less of a chance the dogs ear will stand correctly. However, I don't know if the same applies to boxers.



Ok I am against cropping... I will admit that.... BRAVO to the boxer people for changing the standard..... and after going to England and Crufts this year where cropping is illegal I have to say that the end of the world has not come in a country where cropping is illegal but ok.....the dogs were fine the people were fine.... none of the dogs were cropped.....but when people make statements about how it doesn't hurt..... to me that is a crock.... of course it hurts..... 

..... how do you know that the cropping is less painful than the ear infection.... IF the dog were to get an ear infection. There are alot of dogs out there that don't have cropped ears AND have hairy ears.... my retrievers are one.... water dogs none the less..... and we don't have chronic ear infections.... because we trim the hair in the ear and we keep it clean.... very simple very easy....I would also suggest that my dogs dont have trouble hearing..... 

I wish someone really could justify cropping to me.... because right now I just don't get it..... it looks like aesthetics to me..... tail docking .... ok I get that.... I might not like it... but ok that makes mroe sense to me especially in working breeds and sporting dogs like pointers and viszlas and such but ear cropping..... I just don't get..... 

and to be honest to make a statement that cutting off a part of the ear hurts less than an ear infection.... that they won't get if you keep their ears clean makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially when I have a breed with flopped ears and hairy flopped ears who are water dogs to boot.... that don't have ear infections.... because I keep their ears clean.... 

I just think it is easy to make statements like that when we are not the ones having our ears cut up ..... 

jmho on that one.... 
s


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I just think it is easy to make statements like that when we are not the ones having our ears cut up .....
> 
> jmho on that one....
> s


Not just yho !!! Lots and lots of people have realized this is unnecessary and often viewed as disfigurement.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Dieselsmama said:


> Not just yho !!! Lots and lots of people have realized this is unnecessary and often viewed as disfigurement.


Though there is an equally strong force that believes the opposite, as well.

I personally am not against cropping and/or docking but given that they are surgeries – I wouldn’t make the assumption that there is no pain involved.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am neither for or against ear cropping, I think it is an individual thing. I do, however, believe that if you chose to have it done, you better be prepared to take care of the ears while they are healing. You better plan on giving the dog a VERY good home for the rest of it's life too. I think that is the important thing.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Inga said:


> I am neither for or against ear cropping, I think it is an individual thing. I do, however, believe that if you chose to have it done, you better be prepared to take care of the ears while they are healing. You better plan on giving the dog a VERY good home for the rest of it's life too. I think that is the important thing.


I really like that answer...


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Though there is an equally strong force that believes the opposite, as well.
> 
> I personally am not against cropping and/or docking but given that they are surgeries – I wouldn’t make the assumption that there is no pain involved.


Not disagreeing with you personally, but is there any argument to be made for it's necessity?


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

I can't speak for boxers but dobermans ears have been getting cropped since they were bred. Most people don't know that dobermans were bred from hounds and were used as hunting dogs when the breed was first formed. Cropping the ears made it easier for the dogs to hear the owners calls from 100's of yards off. This is what they were made to do. 

I am not going to lie and tell you that it doesn't hurt and their are risks involved as their are with all surgeries. Crop the ears at the wrong time and they will never stand, which is a waste of your time and the dog's pain. I love everything about dobermans, and without the ear crop I just feel that I am taking something away from what the dog truely is. The stitches should be removed within a week, and the ears should be fully healed within a week after that. They are really only in pain for the first few days then the the ears should be scabed over. 

It is a personally choice. They aren't required for confirmation for any breed. However, it will take you years if ever to finish an uncroped dog, in a croped dog breed. 

Oh, you should crop in the 7th to 9th week. This is before the cartilage has grown in and the ears should be almost full grown. Boxers are cut short, so if you even have to post it won't be more than a month or two.

Sorry one more thing. I don't agree that it lowers the chance for ear infection. My dogs ears are always dirty, I have to clean them once a week. I think with the eras open it is easier for dirt to come in. Just a geuss.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Dieselsmama said:


> Not disagreeing with you personally, but is there any argument to be made for it's necessity?


No worries 

I've actually never owned a cropped breed so I don't know all of the specifics as far as what cropping does and doesn't do for the ears. I know there are a lot of arguments regarding how it helps keep the ears clean or similar issues, but personally I think it is just an aesthetic thing. It may have had a purpose when originally implemented, but at this date I don't think that is so much the case.

However, I could never use that issue to argue against cropping because half the things people do to dogs are for aesthetic purposes. Take those extreme slants that are being bred into GSDs, or docking tails (I know this is used for working dogs but the majority of docked dogs have never seen work in their life).

So while it might be an unnecessary procedure with possible problems, I can't help but feel it’s no different then the problems we BREED into our dogs (i.e.: GSD slants).

This is just my opinion though...


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree that there are strong opinions on either side.... so would I vote to end cropping you betcha...... but ok I understand there are differing opinions..... 

and some of what is being bred into dogs for aesthetics purposes is awful.... the GSD rear is a good example.... golden retrievers dripping in coat.... and fat labradors.... but those things don't require the surgical removal of part of an ear.... and the breed clubs can change this if they want.... obviously the boxer club did.... 

but aside from that ..... what got to me regardless of whether you agree or disagree wtih cropping is the statement that cuttign off part of the ear doesn't hurt as much as an ear infection.... that they would get if their ears weren't cropped.... 

that statement is ridiculous as far as I am concerned..... for the reasons I mentioned above.... and that has nothing to do with whether you approve of cropping and docking.... but if you are gonna defend the practice then call it like it is.... at least be honest about it.... 

s


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> Oh, you should crop in the 7th to 9th week. This is before the cartilage has grown in and the ears should be almost full grown. Boxers are cut short, so if you even have to post it won't be more than a month or two.
> 
> Sorry one more thing. I don't agree that it lowers the chance for ear infection. My dogs ears are always dirty, I have to clean them once a week. I think with the eras open it is easier for dirt to come in. Just a geuss.


Most boxers get cropped between 10-12 weeks. Dobe breeders crop the dog before sending the pup home, in boxers the decision is left up to the owner. 
There are a couple different crops for boxers - the short crop, med crop and the more commonly seen show crop - which is a longer cut much like the doberman's. While it depends on the dogs ear leather, posting and taping can last anywhere from 6 months to a year (in rare cases).
As for health reasons, the propaganda often put out by the pro-cropping lobby is that dogs with natural ears get all kinds of ear infections and other problems because of insufficient airflow into the ear. 
The counter from the anti-cropping lobby though, which is every bit as much ill-informed propaganda, is that cropped dogs get all the ear infections and other damages due to the unnaturally exposed ear. It sounds a good theory - but it simply isn't true. Aside from a bit of dirt, it's hard to imagine what sort of "foreign objects" that tiny little ear flap that spends half it's life inside out is supposed to protect against, isn't it?
Ear infections, incidentally, are almost always due to some other underlying health problem - very often allergies. And the cropped or natural state of the ears has no bearing on that.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

I think it depends on the breed. You see more and more natural eared boxers these days. Especially since they modified the breed standard to allow natural eared boxers to be shown.


As far as I know, I don't believe any breed standard has a requiremnt for cropped ears. I know for a fact the Doberman standard does not require it. However, I also know that it is next to impossible to do well in confirmation with a dob that is not cropped or has a badly done ear crop. I have not noticed any Boxers in the ring that don't have their ears cropped. I will have to look agian at my next show.

However, the important thing is if you do decide to do it be responsible. Ask around for the best vet in the area that does the surgery. Allow the ears to scab over before doing your posting, that should take about a week. The sticthes should be removed before posting also. When you post, I use cardboard tampons to hold the ear up. The cotton at the end gives a nice cushion in the ear and the cardboard is breathable. I then wrap the ears in paper tabe. This is the most breathable tape, and will not remove hair with repeat taping. Leave up for three to five days, then remove. Allow the ears to stay down until the start to droop, then retape. 

At first you will be retaping within an hour, as time goes by you can leave them down for longer and longer. The goal is to have the ears stand whenever you see those little wrinkles of attention of the top of your dogs head. Make sure you keep the ears clean and dry. I would clean with out with rubbing alcohal everytime I took them down. The alcohal is self drying, so you don't have to worry about water being in their ears. 

If the dog is just a pet, I would get the short or medium cut. They will stand soooo much faster. 

Just take your time, and make the best desicion for you and your dog. And please take good care of the ears.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

I am sorry but I have to pipe in on this one... To the Op (to echo Shalva) yes of course it hurts and it does for a long time... that is why it was banned here and most countries in the EU (if not all ?)I don't know BUT to me when my pup is a pup I'd rather them and me enjoying that rather than worrying about their ear job. Floppy, natural ears are great!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Come on, Tamara. You've never even THOUGHT about cropping your bassett's ears?


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

well I must confess when I see the trails of water and food across the floor, on the sofa - they are like slugs those bloomin ears- I have do restrain myself from booking them into the finest Harley Street surgeon!


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

I have attached pictures of an uncropped doberman and an uncropped boxer (hopefully the pics will show up). They look beautiful with natural ears.

I don't really want to get into the argument, but if you're not planning to show the dog, why bother cropping at all? 

I would never get a dog with cropped ears or a docked tail. That's unfortunate, because it really limits the choice of breeds, although hopefully someday more U.S. dogs (cocker spaniels, jack russells, OE sheepdogs, aussies, etc.) will be left undocked. I have looked at the arguments from both sides, and although I definitely disagree with cropping and docking, I also firmly believe that every dog looks better with natural ears and tail (only true working dogs should have the docked tail, in my opinion).


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Could you imagine a the tape required to get a bassett's ears to stand??? LOL...
I love that boxer with his tongue out!!! Great pic...

To the OP - it's your decision, it's a lot of work and time and you have to be commited to taking care of those ears. I have one of each, but I also didn't have to do the work. I love both my floppy and my croppy, but it all comes down to your preference. Good luck in your decision.


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## IslandMutts (Jul 23, 2007)

If stand up ears were desirable for a breed for working purposes, why didn't they just breed the dogs to have ears that stand up, rather than making them all go through surgery?


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> That's unfortunate, because it really limits the choice of breeds, although hopefully someday more U.S. dogs (cocker spaniels, jack russells, OE sheepdogs, *aussies,* etc.) will be left undocked.


FWIW, most Aussies have naturally stumpy tails, not cropped. Same goes for Pembroke Corgis, and probably a few other breeds. The short tail in Aussies is more desirable, so it's likely that some breeders may crop tails on pups born with full tails.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Actually, most DON'T have bobtails in Aussies or corgis- in Corgis, it's about 1/8, and I don't have a figure for Aussies. The portion that are bobtailed may have short tails like docked corgis, may have half a tail, may have 1/3 of a tail- it can be any length. Most breeders, even with natural bobtails, will crop for uniformity. Reputable breeders, after all, are generally showing their dogs in conformation, at least in corgis. Tail length is someting controlable with docking. Even breeding all natural bobtails, you'll get the full range of bob-lengths, so it really does make more sense to dock tails. 

I don't, honestly, think docking and cropping are very comparable. Docking is done at 2-3 days, it's painless, and the recovery is negligible. Cropping is painful, labor-intensive, requires afterware, etc. So... yeah.


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## Dobermaniac (Jul 28, 2007)

FriendsOfZoe said:


> I have attached pictures of an uncropped doberman and an uncropped boxer (hopefully the pics will show up). They look beautiful with natural ears.
> 
> I don't really want to get into the argument, but if you're not planning to show the dog, why bother cropping at all?
> 
> I would never get a dog with cropped ears or a docked tail. That's unfortunate, because it really limits the choice of breeds, although hopefully someday more U.S. dogs (cocker spaniels, jack russells, OE sheepdogs, aussies, etc.) will be left undocked. I have looked at the arguments from both sides, and although I definitely disagree with cropping and docking, I also firmly believe that every dog looks better with natural ears and tail (only true working dogs should have the docked tail, in my opinion).


Because a cropped and docked Doberman is in the US standard. I want my dogs to fulfill the look they were intended to have by Louis Dobermann.

A docked tail was an important characteristic of the Doberman because the tail represents a "body part" that can be easily and readily injured. Injury can happen by accident, such as knocking it against hard surfaces or getting it caught between surfaces (doors, windows, car doors) which can cause bruising, hematomas (pockets of blood), sloughing off of hair and tissue, gangrene and terrible fractures of the vertebra requiring major reparative surgery to treat and even save the tail. The tail also served as a handle that an attacker could grab and injure which could cause the dog to experience pain and trauma and cause him to abandon his job of protecting his owner. So docking was also a functional part of the Dobermans effectiveness as a family protector. 

Cropped ears, likewise, were the logical, functional addition to complete the Dobermans physical equipment to make him the elite family companion and protection dog that he was, even from the beginning. There are two primary reasons that we desire cropped ears, and both have to do with FUNCTION. The first is that a neatly cropped ear is less of a "handle" for an attacker to hang on to. Since the Doberman has been bred to be a personal protector, a cropped ear gives the dog a decided advantage in a confrontation with a perpetrator. The second has to do with sound "localization". An erect earred dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone, whereas a drop earred dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone. Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage. 

I think at the end of the day NOBODY has the right to tell me or anybody else what is best for their dog. Just as I would never advocate cropped ears to someone who did not want it.


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm not telling anyone what's best for their dog; I'm just saying that I would never want a dog that had to go through or went through the cropping or docking process. I also understand about the breed standard and recognize that those who are serious about their breed want to maintain that standard and will perform cropping as responsibly and painlessly as possible. 

Unfortunately, cropped ears has become a look that is popular because it looks "mean," and people who have no intention of showing their dogs or don't particularly care about the breed standard should not, in my opinion, put their dog through the cropping process merely for aesthetics. I wish it weren't done at all, but for those who are truly serious about their cropped breeds, I understand why it's important to them and also believe that they will take care to do it properly. But you don't need to watch too many episodes of Animal cops shows on TV to see that self-cropping to get a "mean looking" dog has become far too common and can indeed warrant an animal cruelty charge. Basically, if someone is getting a cropped breed to have as a house pet and doesn't know anything about cropping or the reasons it is done, it would be best to either have the breeder (who presumably knows more about the breed and the cropping process) hand over the pup pre-cropped or to just leave them natural.

By the way, goldens and labs do great search and rescue work and I've heard of very few cases when their floppy ears and long tails got in the way. Sure, for the doberman's original purpose, it should be cropped/docked, but I can't accept an argument that cropping is necessary for doing search and rescue work today.


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## Dobermaniac (Jul 28, 2007)

Can I ask what makes you think cropping is an extremely painful procedure? Have you ever owned a dog that has been cropped and/or been incharged with the posting process? I ask because i've been around alot of Dobermans that have been cropped and after a couple of days to a week, once the ears start to heal their is no indication to me that they are in any pain whatsoever. 

Docking is done when the dog is 2-3 days old. There is no way they remember such surgery. Do newborns remember being circumsised? Also, a doberman/Rottweiler tail is much different than a Golden/lab. Dobes and Rotties actually have among the largest tails in the dog world. Their tails are also prone to getting severly injured.

I don't understand the "mean" arguement. The primary purpose for a Doberman is to be a FAMILY PROTECTOR. If this dog has a mean look it serves its purpose to protect the family. Of course self cropping is wrong. Only an idiot and a horrible person would crop a dog if they have no clue what they are doing. There are many wonderful vets that specialize in cropping. Believe me if I felt that ear cropping served no purpose and was nothing more than painful plastic surgery I would never crop or even recommend ear cropping.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

I didn't know that cropped ears made a better FAMILY PROTECTOR but perhaps that is just me being ignorant. Please don't bring consmetic surgery into your dog's great things they do. Our Lula -forever makes us feel safe - with great floppy ears .


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Dobermaniac said:


> Believe me if I felt that ear cropping served no purpose and was nothing more than painful plastic surgery I would never crop or even recommend ear cropping.



Well then it seems it only serves a purpose here in the U.S. where we have this thing about our RIGHTS...... regardless of how OUR rights impacts other creatures..... because in Europe and the UK cropping ears has been outlawed and as I see it... the dobermans which originated in Europe are doing the same jobs and accomplishing the same things without being cropped. 

The tails like I said earlier one could make a case for ..... as the same problem exists in some hunting dogs.... primarily pointers and vizsla etc..... those with thin whip tails.... 

however, in the UK working dogs can still have crops and be docked but they can not be shown and they must provide proof that they are being worked. The surgery is also regulated so that only a veterinarian with experience can perform the surgery.... 

the reality is that you personally are doing the surgery to conform to a breed standard... not because your dog is actually working.... and to me that is a problem.... and as far as SAR there are lots of drop eared dogs very successfully doing search and rescue work.... a ton of goldens who not only have drop ears but they have hairy drop ears..... 

You ask if we have ever been involved with dogs who have been cropped and thus how would we know if it is painful..... well I would suggest that the nature of an organic being with a central nervous system is such that when you cut off part of the ear, it hurts..... and just because our dogs are more stoic than most people does not mean that they are not in pain. Look at a basic spay... a surgery that would put most human women out of commission for 6 to 8 weeks and keeps a dog down for 3 days at most..... it does not mean they don't hurt.... what it does show is that they don't dwell on pain and continue to do what they have to do..... 

Personally if they outlawed cropping at a minimum I would be thrilled..... and then add docking to the mix..... except for dogs that can show that they are working dogs..... no more physically disfiguring an animal so it meets a breed standard created by man. 

Just my honest opinion. 
S


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks Shalva, I agree wholeheartedly. That said, I don't want to get in an argument about personal preference. But the anti-cropping lobby is out there and worldwide, it's succeeding, so don't be too surprised if it succeeds here eventually.

I for one will never own a cropped or docked dog. 

Back to the original poster, rather than getting caught up in this endless argument, I just want you to know that you don't have to have your boxer's ears cropped--s/he will look wonderful without the procedure (and it might even save you some hassle in the future, as a lot of breed specific legislation targets dogs with cropped ears that people who don't know any better think look like pitbulls. And yes, cropped boxers have been mistaken for pitbulls).


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

brilliant shalva


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Very good post, Shalva. 



FriendsOfZoe said:


> (and it might even save you some hassle in the future, as a lot of breed specific legislation targets dogs with cropped ears that people who don't know any better think look like pitbulls. And yes, cropped boxers have been mistaken for pitbulls).


 
That's a pretty silly statement - There is just as many non-cropped dogs on the BSL as there are cropped. Besides, in my years of being around boxers, both cropped and floppy there have only been a few instances of mistaken identity and that was with my white FLOPPY eared boxer Manny. 




> Originally Posted by Dobermaniac
> Believe me if I felt that ear cropping served no purpose and was nothing more than painful plastic surgery I would never crop or even recommend ear cropping.


This is pretty silly too...Shava hit the nail on the head with this one.


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## redox (May 21, 2007)

I don't personally like to see dogs with cropped ears, but I'm posting about docked tails. Just to put this out there from my experience, I have known a dog without cropped a tail that severely injured his tail by wagging it so hard in the house, hitting the walls and furniture, that he literally split the flesh of his tail and started to bleed. I have also heard reports of this happening others' dogs. If you've ever seen a injured tail, you know just how hard it is to heal. I know it must have been extremely painful for the dog that I knew this happened to. The big loveable oaf just kept it a waggin' though  Anyway, that is just one way that a dog that doesn't officially "work" can benefit by having a docked tail, especially dogs with thin and easily damaged tails.


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

I don't think it's a silly statement because I've heard many people talk about BSL targeting any large dog with cropped ears. I didn't say it made any sense, since lots of actual pitbulls have floppy ears! But if ear cropping really makes a dog look fiercer, as the doberman owner says is the purpose, then having the ears cropped certainly will not help you out in a case of mistaken identity.
I hope I'm wrong about this; too many boxers, rotties, mixes, etc. are already wrongly accused of being pitbulls (and we won't even get started on the legislation targeting pits!!).


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## Veltish (Jul 29, 2007)

i dont really want to get into the argument..but i must say a few words. if you just think about the whole process and everyone who does it. So you have your reasons and your beleifs about it..but that doesnt account for everyone out there. doing it to give them the "mean" look is generally the main reason of cropping. especially in pitbulls. its fine to justify your reasons but not to justify cropping in a whole. any sane person could realize the inhumanity in it. it was a fad that should have never started. it went to far and its unnecessary.

my boyfriends German shorthair, gauge has a docked tail.. it looks discusting and i HATE it. but theres nothing i could do about it.. just sitting here waiting for people to come to thier senses and outlaw every last bit of it.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Veltish said:


> i dont really want to get into the argument..but i must say a few words. if you just think about the whole process and everyone who does it. So you have your reasons and your beleifs about it..but that doesnt account for everyone out there. doing it to give them the "mean" look is generally the main reason of cropping. especially in pitbulls. its fine to justify your reasons but not to justify cropping in a whole. any sane person could realize the inhumanity in it. it was a fad that should have never started. it went to far and its unnecessary.
> 
> my boyfriends German shorthair, gauge has a docked tail.. it looks discusting and i HATE it. but theres nothing i could do about it.. just sitting here waiting for people to come to thier senses and outlaw every last bit of it.


Cropping and docking did not start as a fad...


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> I don't, honestly, think docking and cropping are very comparable. Docking is done at 2-3 days, it's painless, and the recovery is negligible. Cropping is painful, labor-intensive, requires afterware, etc. So... yeah.


I totally agree about that.

I am against cropping, end of story for me. Now docking to me is just like removal of dewclaws (except docking is easier), they both have a purpose. Dewclaws can get caught on things and ripped off. I noticed that most docked breeds have whip like tails (I said most not all), and I think they are better off with out them, better for peoples legs and preventing "happy tail" (where the dog breaks open the flesh on the tail and blood goes everywhere, very messy). So those 2 have reasons but I see no use at all out of cropping. A natural eared dog looks much nicer IMO.


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## Spiritguardian3 (Feb 11, 2007)

I love natural boxer ears, I think they look beautiful!! Cropped boxers always look so serious and lets face it, boxers are very very silly dogs 

I don't think if you love your dog you'll respect their body parts. People for some reason think its ok to mutilate a dog's ear, tail, etc because of their beliefs. If you want to have plastic surgery, go ahead, you can make that choice but people seem to forget that the dogs of today are generally not doing the jobs of old. Some dogs we're trying to breed them away from what they were origonally bred for (ie bully breeds). If your dog is going to be in the field everyday then I can understand docking. If your dog is not a family companion and will be constantly guarding your home from invaders (don't be paranoid people, I doubt there are people lining up to sneak into your homes and kill your family  ) then ok, maybe. Boxers and Dobes in the military I can respect having their ears/tails done. People don't really care about if your dog is in pain, its for the 'look' of the breed. A sleek Doberman with fierce ears and a docked tail looks more appealing (I guess) then a natural tail and ears.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I wish I could afford a little plastic surgery for myself. LOL Not on my ears though.


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## Dobermaniac (Jul 28, 2007)

Spiritguardian3 said:


> I don't think if you love your dog you'll respect their body parts. People for some reason think its ok to mutilate a dog's ear, tail, etc because of their beliefs. natural tail and ears.


So do parents who have their children circumsized not love their kids?

Interesting how cropping a dog's ears and docking its tail (all done under anesthesia in a vet's OR) is illegal, but circumcision where a child is given little more than a topical numbing cream is perfectly ok....One would think that with all the ills facing dog's in todays society people could possibly get off their high horse and focus on issues more important.


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## Spiritguardian3 (Feb 11, 2007)

Dobermaniac said:


> So do parents who have their children circumsized not love their kids?


No, I'm not saying that at all. But I think that if you love your child you would not do something like binding (woman feet bound to make smaller and look more 'beautiful'). Circumsision is done to young men so when he is in his 20s his future partners aren't offset because this country/civilzation is very superficial. I know a lot of guys and some do not have it done and are glad they do not! Some are terrified to be with a girl because a lot of people do not even know men have foreskin. I'm sure your dog is not going to have that problem when he reaches sexual maturity because he will either be neutered, or if he's a breeding animal you pick his mates for him. There are a lot of variadbles there, I'm sure if trekkie parents started cropping ears to get a vulcan look to their children there'd be a huge uproar lol.




Dobermaniac said:


> Interesting how cropping a dog's ears and docking its tail (all done under anesthesia in a vet's OR) is illegal, but circumcision where a child is given little more than a topical numbing cream is perfectly ok....


-shrugs- people like me feed their dog wellness, timberwolf, etc and I eat pretty much nothing but fast food, how does that make sense? lol I think if you were to get your child circumsed it should be done by your doctor, some people do it for religious reasons and do it differently. And the issue is also in contriverary, some say it has health benefits to cut and some say it does not. Some say its a human right issue. What about female circumcision? I think thats a human right issue, don't you? Is that a parents right to do that to their child? Docking a tail is something for function, cropping of ears is more for show.



Dobermaniac said:


> One would think that with all the ills facing dog's in todays society people could possibly get off their high horse and focus on issues more important.


Well thats a silly comment. I have posted here about cropping/docking, about people buying from petshops and about how I think its wrong to abuse your animal, etc. This is just one part of our feelings and love for dogs, even if you think they are unfounded. I know there are people with strong opinions and unwavering love for their dogs that make you feel like they are attacking you and your choices personally but I do not feel that way at all. If you are strong in your convictions then just ignore them, try to educate people your side and if they don't agree, oh well. You can't help closed mind people can you?  Its not about being on a high horse, its about my opinion and you can take it or leave it.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Dobermaniac said:


> So do parents who have their children circumsized not love their kids?
> 
> Interesting how cropping a dog's ears and docking its tail (all done under anesthesia in a vet's OR) is illegal, but circumcision where a child is given little more than a topical numbing cream is perfectly ok....


Docking is not done under anesthesia...



Dobermaniac said:


> One would think that with all the ills facing dog's in todays society people could possibly get off their high horse and focus on issues more important.


No one is on their high horse - in fact, perhaps your advice applies to you as well. I can think of a number of _other_ issues that are more important than cropping. 



> Originally Posted by Dobermaniac
> Believe me if I felt that ear cropping served no purpose and was nothing more than painful plastic surgery I would never crop or even recommend ear cropping.


Cropping serves no purpose other than cosmetic, plain and simple.


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## sheplovr (Aug 27, 2006)

I had a Boxer named Brusier some years back. Got a show cut done on him and with the prop and caring for them, I would never do it again. They got infected draining down deep into the ear, it was a mess. It is not legal in Pa to do this, some states will not have it. Sure it is most painful, lots of work and I think they look cuter with normal ears now seeing more.
If you want to show then it is a must and nothing wrong with it, just have to take good care till they heal good. Also, a vet that knows what he/she is doing to do this and it does cost also.


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## umazoi (Sep 1, 2007)

I have owned 2 untouched boxers, and have an intact 9 year old son. Should I worry about his future popularity? I was a young mom, and saw a video that helped make my decision for me. I am not judging anyone. I now have concerns!


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## Spiritguardian3 (Feb 11, 2007)

umazoi said:


> I have owned 2 untouched boxers, and have an intact 9 year old son. Should I worry about his future popularity? I was a young mom, and saw a video that helped make my decision for me. I am not judging anyone. I now have concerns!



lol if health teachers would just explain what a natural male looks like XD I think if you asked the average high school senior what circumsion is they wouldn't have a clue other than its something they might have heard about on tv.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

In my 54 yrs I've never seen a cropped eared dog in Australia. So, as now, I assume its always been illegal or never practiced. Docking tails on the other hand has been illegal for the past year or 2. I don't like the mean look cropped ears gives these dogs. English springers & the like have lovely tails. When hearing about dog body language at a seminar its hard for some dogs to read other dogs that have cropped ears & docked tails.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

I didn't read through all of the post so I don't know if this has been brought up. I'm just curious, for those who are oposed to croping and espescialy those who are oposed to docking, how do you feel about having dewclaws removed?


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## Kaida (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm glad some Americans have gotten past the whole "Nobody can trample on my RIGHT to do whatever I want to MY dog (even if it's painful and bad for the dog)" thing. Cropping has been illegal here for a long time, thank goodness, and every British person's reaction to a cropped dog seems to be "Why would you mutilate your dog's ears like that?"

If you want to protect your family, get a security system, don't chop off part of your dog's ears to make it look tough.

I have a cavalier king charles spaniel, with floppy ears, and our family dog when I was growing up had floppy ears too. No problems ever with ear infections there. My boyfriend's family all go shooting and have many gundogs between them (mainly springer spaniels and a few pointers). None of them are docked, and none have ever damaged their tails.

As for circumcision, it's not done here except for religious reasons, luckily. I was having this discussion with my boyfriend and he is so glad he's not circumcised. He reckons it would make certain things a lot less fun  for no good reason.

Kaida


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Kaida said:


> I'm glad some Americans have gotten past the whole "Nobody can trample on my RIGHT to do whatever I want to MY dog (even if it's painful and bad for the dog)" thing.


How very inflammatory of you. 
I am glad to see some Brittish have gotten past their whole stereotype of the American people.  

Whatever...


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## Kaida (Mar 13, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> How very inflammatory of you.
> I am glad to see some Brittish have gotten past their whole stereotype of the American people.
> 
> Whatever...


I'm just calling it as I see it. All the people I have ever seen that are pro-docking/cropping because it's their "right" to do what they want with their dog, are American. It's not an un-informed stereotype, having met tons of Americans online and offline, and indeed even having some American family. Stereotypes sometimes have a reason, especially when they relate to a common cultural approach to certain things.

I wasn't intending to be offensive, quite the opposite in fact. I thought I was giving a compliment to those who have gotten past that common view in America.

By the way, British has one T. (As an aside, another stereotype that I DON'T buy into much is that Americans are badly educated).


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Kaida said:


> All the people I have ever seen that are pro-docking/cropping because it's their "right" to do what they want with their dog, are American. It's not an un-informed stereotype, having met tons of Americans online and offline, and indeed even having some American family. Stereotypes sometimes have a reason, especially when they relate to a common cultural approach to certain things.


You act like we defend cropping the same way we defend free speech. It's not so much a "right", it just has always been a _choice_. One that has been commonplace in the U.S for many, many years. Seeing how cropping has been banned in the UK since approximately 1875 (give or take a year), of course it's going to seem absurb to those who've never had this _choice_.



Kaida said:


> By the way, British has one T. (As an aside, another stereotype that I DON'T buy into much is that Americans are badly educated).


 And I try not to buy into the stereotype that all British are ill-mannered.
But thank you for the spelling correction, sometimes my fingers stutttter.


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## IslandMutts (Jul 23, 2007)

animalcraker said:


> I didn't read through all of the post so I don't know if this has been brought up. I'm just curious, for those who are oposed to croping and espescialy those who are oposed to docking, how do you feel about having dewclaws removed?


I am opposed to cropping and docking as I consider it to be cruel and unnecessary surgery. Dewclaws are a different story. Often dewclaws will get infected, torn, or ripped off during play and other activities. My vet told me he likes to remove them at the same time the dog is under for getting neutered. I just got my dog's dew claws removed because one of them would often bleed and it was causing her to limp. Now she is fine. I agree with what someone said - dogs use their ears and tails to communicate... dew claws - not so much


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## gone2thedogs (Aug 12, 2007)

animalcraker said:


> I'm just curious, for those who are oposed to croping and espescialy those who are oposed to docking, how do you feel about having dewclaws removed?


My dog's dewclaws were not removed when he was neutered (he was neutered at the shelter before we adopted him). Years later, he developed chronic inflammation and chewing at them, which ultimately caused us to have them removed. They were bugging our dog, and we had tried to treat them symptomatically, but it wasn't working. So yes, I feel removal for veterinary reasons is perfectly justified, just like removing part of an ear or tail for veterinary reasons is justified. 

Also, if you're already putting the dog under for another procedure such as neutering and you don't want to risk another surgery down the road to remove infected dewclaws, then that's something you have to weigh with your vet. Opinions vary on the risks/rewards of that. Our other dog is still sporting her dewclaws at the ripe old age of 9 1/2 and they've never given her grief.

But for cosmetic reasons? No. If one doesn't like the look of ears and tails and dewclaws, then I suggest a pet snake.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

gone2thedogs said:


> But for cosmetic reasons? No. If one doesn't like the look of ears and tails and dewclaws, then I suggest a pet snake.


lol, good one...or choose a dog with a naturally bobbed tail and prick ears.


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## tsorcus (Aug 24, 2007)

I love my dog's enormous big stand-up ears on his quite small head, as it gives him such a cute comical look, but if he had no ears at all he'd still be wonderful and I would never cause him even a seconds pain for anything so trivial as fashion (which is what ear cropping is).

I think that the US does have some very different animal welfare standards compared to Europe - no one in this part of the world would dream of de-clawing a cat and no vet will neuter or spay before an animal is six months old.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

tsorcus said:


> I love my dog's enormous big stand-up ears on his quite small head, as it gives him such a cute comical look, but if he had no ears at all he'd still be wonderful and I would never cause him even a seconds pain for anything so trivial as fashion (which is what ear cropping is).
> 
> I think that the US does have some very different animal welfare standards compared to Europe - no one in this part of the world would dream of de-clawing a cat and no vet will neuter or spay before an animal is six months old.


Arh but then theres a few dogs in Europe that end up with no ears - lets face it its easier to hack the ears off certain breeds - but thats a whole different subject.

Vets in the UK would never debark a dog either! Tis a strange cultural difference.


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