# New Puppy, Too Rough with older SMALLER dog, trying to teach to play GENTLE!



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Hi I have a new addition, an 11 week old pitbull puppy. I also have a mutt (possibly a Bordie Collie/Pomeranian mix, don't know for sure) who is about 2 years old. So my issue is with the puppy constantly playing too rough with my older dog. My older dog does not seem to get upset by this kind of play however he is a small (only 16-18 pounds or so) so what ends up happening is the puppy will mouth/wrestle etc on top of my adult dog but my adult dog can't seem to get out under. Thing is the puppy will STAY on top of my dog and not let BACK OFF to give him a chance to reverse the roles. My dog has not really been correcting the pup (a few times he yelped but puppy would not read his correction) but normally it seems once I remove the puppy off, my adult dog will want to revert right back into playing (SIGH) so it gets the puppy all wound up again! The puppy also has a bad habit of constantly grabbing onto my adult dogs fur like it's some tug toy. This has been very frustrating. So this has been going on for a few weeks now.

I have been trying to redirect his attention when this happens, when he stops this behavior I have him sit/look at me/treat. Sometimes the puppy listens, sometimes he is too engaged and does not. I've also tried removing him from play and placing him in a separate room/behind a gate/crate. Then in a few minutes letting him out and resuming play. I can do many, many times and he still will go right after my adult dog with the rough play. 

So i would like to teach him that with my dog he needs to play GENTLE and his play style can only reach a certain point. I spend alone time with both everyday working on obedience, puppy is enrolled in puppy cl$#@!, etc, etc. I just cant seem to get him to stop this behavior. 

I want to be consistent with my methods. I thought of teaching "gentle" or maybe "off" or "leave it" just not sure which would be most effective (if I should use different cues for different instances) or just stick to one. I'm all for positive training, but sometimes he is just super stubborn, not sure if a rattle of a can of coins would do the trick just as a slight startle to redirect his attention as once he gets into his mode he is pretty focused? 

He also pushes my adult dog out the way a lot or goes straight to trying to get on top of him. Sometimes he initiates nice play, other time he just goes straight after mouthing his face, being on top, head/paw over back, just very dominant behaviors it seems. He also resource guards any good/toys so I've been giving these items separate. Note sure if this is something worth working on or not...

Any other suggestions that might work I am open to and would greatly appreciate it! Thanks a lot!


----------



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Wondering if anyone has feedback as what might be the best method to use and which command is most effective in your experiences to condition an easier play style and not being so rough/forward constantly.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

He's very young. That's the real issue. It's going to take time for him to mature and learn to play nicely. Just keep interrupting play any time he gets too rough, yes, over and over and over.

Also, young puppies get what's called a puppy pass from adult dogs. The adults will let anything go. Once the puppy hits 5-6 months, the puppy pass expires and your adult will start correcting the puppy for his rude behavior, so let him. Snarling, barking, growling, even air snapping is normal. Don't let the adult dog actually bite. That's too far.


----------



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

My dog actually just recently corrected the pup a couple times, he growled and snapped a couple times at him. I don't think he bit down, it happened fast but the puppy sort of cowered away and laid down. After that my adult dog was back in a playful manner so I'm taking it was a good correction. Even though he corrected a couple times the puppy is still back at roughhousing. I've been teaching "leave it". Should I say that command and then if the puppy doesn't comply time out for a little? Just want to use a command that will be most effective...as leave it in a sense is more of don't touch that and I really am trying to teach it's ok to play but just to a certain degree...the puppy is so in tuned that a verbal at this point doesn't redirect his attention...is there anything else you can recommend as an interrupter maybe to focus his attention?


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

If you're going to teach leave it, don't teach it like that. This is a great video on leave it. You can use leave it for this situation, sure. However, he's still a baby, it's going to take time.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Bucky is a bratty 2 year old and I treat him like a baby dog. He's only been here 3 weeks and easily gets over excited when 7 year old Ginger blinks. If he gets too bouncy and Ginger is bothered he gets crated for a bit. He has improved a great deal in the 3 weeks he has been here but a little puppy is probably going to take longer to figure it out. I'm not treating this as learning how to behave rather he gets too excited and needs to chill for a bit. I hope they will play chase and tug in time as she likes those games but she won't play if she doesn't trust him!


----------



## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

lizzy25 said:


> My dog actually just recently corrected the pup a couple times, he growled and snapped a couple times at him. I don't think he bit down, it happened fast but the puppy sort of cowered away and laid down. After that my adult dog was back in a playful manner so I'm taking it was a good correction. Even though he corrected a couple times the puppy is still back at roughhousing. I've been teaching "leave it". Should I say that command and then if the puppy doesn't comply time out for a little? Just want to use a command that will be most effective...as leave it in a sense is more of don't touch that and I really am trying to teach it's ok to play but just to a certain degree...the puppy is so in tuned that a verbal at this point doesn't redirect his attention...is there anything else you can recommend as an interrupter maybe to focus his attention?


It doesn't matter what "command" you use - dog's don't speak English, so the words you actually say have no intrinsic meaning for them. What matters more is that you pair your verbal cue of choice to the action that you want to follow. 

In this type of case/situation, my 'verbal' of choice would be "Enough" (which I use for any behavior that is allowed to a certain point, but no further) When the play started to get to the point of being 'too much', I'd interrupt it with "OK - That's *enough*" and then immediately separate the two dogs for a cooling off & settling down period. (crating and/or physically separating them for a short period of time if necessary) Then let them reengage. If it spirals up to an unacceptable level again - rinse & repeat. 

Eventually your verbal 'enough' cue (or whatever you choose to use for such a situation) will be enough to break up the wild-child action. (I tend to reserve 'leave it' for something I really don't want them going back to - something that they just shouldn't do/have) But again, your spoken words don't have to 'mean' anything to anyone but you - as long as you're consistent & clear with your dogs and what you expect, they'll figure it out.


----------



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks makes sense, I've seen slight improvement so far but I'm sure with maturity, being consistent, training and exercise it will get better. 

In regards to resource guarding, the pup usually does this with any toys, bones, chews, etc. I can manage it if they both get the "same" chew as they are kept busy but I do need to always watch. Not sure if it's something worth working on or if it's something best left when separated?

I know there's some different approaches to work on resource guarding but this one I found particularly interesting:

Abundance / resource flooding approach. This method comes from the idea that dogs tend to guard valuable items that are in scarce supply. Items in abundant supply lose value so dogs don't feel as compelled to guard. And a dog can't guard 40 toys at once for example. As the guarding behavior fades from lack of rehearsal, we can gradually decrease the # of resources down to more 'normal' levels. 

I would love to be able to play with one or both like tug/fetch, etc but it seems like when they are in the same room they both want the attention when it comes to toys.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I tried the 'abundance resource' idea with Sassy. She gathered up all the chews and lay down in front of them, there were more than a dozen. I am sure she could have guarded 40 toys just fine as well. If Max got one she would go up to him and slowly take it out of his mouth. Switched to only having them at chew time and that didn't even work well as neither dog would chew with the other one in sight. Took a long time to get those chews finished up! Found that one session chews like pig/cow ears and raw beef ribs worked better.

My living room rug is covered with toys and my non resource guarding dogs still want the same toy every time. Last year my grandtwins were the same way, if one was enjoying a toy then that was the good one and the other wanted it. You could try but in my limited experience it won't help much.

If pup is showing signs of resource guarding, bravo to you for recognizing it, I'd be keeping all guarded objects up and you control access even though the older dog doesn't have any problem with resource guarding.

My dogs generally want me to activate the toy then they go off and chew/bat it around on their own. I can tug with both little dogs at the same time and could with 33 pound Max and 42 pound Sassy as well. Fetch is a problem, Bucky puts Ginger off fetch as she dislikes him chasing her but she is fine with him playing so far.

A while back I learned to play 'hot toy'. One takes two toys and plays with one. When dog gets really excited and is into the game drop that toy and pick up the other. When dog is excited about the second toy drop it and play with the first. I think that is helping me at the moment. Ginger is an easy dog, Bucky is more intense but I can now activate most any toy so dogs don't fixate on the same toy all the time. Sure orange man and owl tug are the bomb but skunk tug and fleece star are fun too!


----------



## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

lizzy25 said:


> Thanks makes sense, I've seen slight improvement so far but I'm sure with maturity, being consistent, training and exercise it will get better.
> 
> In regards to resource guarding, the pup usually does this with any toys, bones, chews, etc. I can manage it if they both get the "same" chew as they are kept busy but I do need to always watch. Not sure if it's something worth working on or if it's something best left when separated?
> 
> ...


I think that time, maturity, consistency & training is going to come into play here, as well. Since one of yours is a very young puppy, it will take some time to get to the point of him being able to exhibit the level of impulse control needed to successfully 'share', even if supervised. 

As far as high-value treats/chews goes - I always separate & supervise. Always. At this point with my four, that means I lay out four individual mats & they are expected to remain on their mats until they are finished & then NOT allowed to go hover over or bother the other, slower chewers. (with younger dogs, or those with less impulse control, I'd physically separate until everything was consumed)

For general toys, training & attention 'sharing', I have a few basic household rules: No one is allowed to steal from, hover over or otherwise pester another dog that is happily engaged in a solo activity or toy (such as chewing a Nylabone) They are all so conditioned to this (at this point) that I can leave toys & chews out and no one will get in a tiff over anything. Honestly, they don't play/chew much when they don't have a human audience, anyway. I guess our presence makes those Nylabones taste extra good? lol

Three of the four can & will play 'tug' with each other, the fourth one - not so much. She does NOT share well, so she isn't permitted to join into a group game or get involved with a dog-on-dog tug match (since she would just blaze in, break it up by being crabby & then no one would have any fun) I used to have to call her over to me during these times, now it is a conditioned response on her part - when the others get rowdy, she just runs over to me.

For sharing attention - I teach all my dogs a *solid* "go mat". Then during group training time, I work with one dog & have the rest waiting for their 'turn' on their individual mats. At first I randomly & frequently treat the dogs who are on mat (in passing while I'm working with the fourth one) but after they know the routine, they just lay & wait for their turn.

I also heavily work on 'wait' in game-type situations. This allows me to play fetch with one toy & two dogs (once they really have it down pat). Dinah is told to "wait" while I tell the other one "Beckett's turn" & throw the toy for him to bring back. Then I tell him to wait, turn & announce "Dinah's turn" and throw the toy for her to bring back. Repeat until my arm gives out. 

Again, this level of turn taking & sharing doesn't happen overnight. It comes with TONS of impulse control work, and just solidifying basic obedience skills - a lot of which a young puppy isn't going to have YET. But it's something to work towards.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

You have to 'protect' the adult dog. However, his snapping and snarking may have been adequate? The puppy may not be too rough anymore? 

If the adult whines etc., then remove the puppy and make him sit. It's OK if the adult comes to play. Let them play, and then separate them, when the adult needs help ... if he does indeed need help. As BK suggested, before you separate them, you can say "[Pitbull Name], Enough" and then separate and make him Sit. At first, he won't know what 'Enough' means, but he'll associate the word with the response. And, if he backs off voluntarily when you say 'enough' , there is no reason to separate them... for the moment. [BTW, you also want to teach each dog to look at you when you say his name.]


----------



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks for all the feedback! This really helps. I will keep doing what I'm doing and work on some impulse control exercises as well. He is really good at going to his mat so this is starting to come in handy a lot now. He is able to "relax" pretty quickly when I give him this option. He is still not quite listening to my verbal when play gets too rough but once I remove him physically and send him to his mat he does go and relax so this is helping. I guess the key thing here is repetition over and over till it sinks in!


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Sounds like you are getting the hang of it. I'm still dreaming about go to mat as he is still very head shy and hasn't a down yet but Bucky the brat is now able to disengage with an interrupter sound or if Ginger hides behind/on top of one of us.

The bad news, he now will vault off me when over excited.


----------



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

So things were getting better. This morning something happened that I wasn't sure if it went too far or not. 

The puppy was being his usual pestering self to my dog. I've been very proactive in getting him to leave my dog alone when my dog seems bothered and now he is listening better to my verbal. However this morning the puppy went to bite at my dogs leg/neck what have you and before I could redirect him my dog started growling (a lot) and going after the puppy snapping at him (I don't think he really went at his skin maybe more nipping). The puppy cowered away but in a slow motion so my dog was able to go at him for a few seconds and before I had a chance to intervene my dog backed off on his own.

So to me this seemed more than just a correction/warning to the puppy? Did he take it too far? Should I have corrected my adult dog afterwards for this? My dog has always been super submissive and usually when the puppy approaches my dog in this manner my dog just usually lowers his body and takes it so to speak (even though I intervene constantly). So it really caught me by surprise. Some people might say my dog might have just had "enough" and told the puppy but I want to make sure his response wasn't taking it too far??


----------



## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

A couple thoughts come to my mind - First off, even dogs have days when they're feeling less patient or a little more cranky than normal. This could be what happened today. But the puppy started it, your dog told him to "get lost" (which the puppy responded appropriately to) and it was done, no physical injury inflicted. I would not further correct anyone at this point.

Secondly - perhaps your idea of the adult dog "seeming bothered" is not HIS idea of actually *being* bothered. Maybe you're letting things go too long before removing or redirecting the pup? If the adult dog immediately goes into head down, freeze-mode as the pup approaches him, this is his first communication that the encounter is unwelcome. (If he wanted to interact, he'd be responding forward to the pup, not trying to draw away) I'd suggest stopping the puppy at this point & getting him to learn to respond to the adult's more subtle signals, rather than waiting until things escalate further, or even allowing the pestering to begin. This will do nothing but teach the older dog that he HAS to 'snark' in order to be heard, understood & respected.


----------



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks for your response. Yes that makes total sense. My dog lost his patience and responded accordingly and in the end no harm was done. Lesson learned, I do need to "intervene" sooner. I know some people say that puppies learn best from other dogs warnings but apparently my dog doesn't correct the puppy in the sense the puppy needs, instead he shows avoidance signals for the most part (turning head, lowering body posture, etc), i need to step in at this point so that it doesn't escalate to the behavior that my dog clearly is trying to avoid to begin with. 

Just was feeling a little discouraged and needed to vent a bit that's all, after a few weeks I thought there would be more progress  I feel like I am truly trying my best to do everything right to set them up to succeed (intervening, exercising puppy before interactions, taking classes, working on obedience, etc). Seems I need to be just a little more proactive and make their interactions as positive as possible. I guess it's unrealistic to think for the extreme breed differences things to go all well in just a few weeks, it's going to take more time and more work on my part.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

A proper correction is done when the pesky dog is laying down and acting submissive and the pestered dog backs off. If the pestered dog continues to keep mouth on the pesky dog or escalates then that is going too far. We humans get scared because a proper correction involves teeth and a lot of scary noises but if the offended dog gets that laying down submissive posture and backs off it is fine. In time you hope the pesky dog will see the freeze or curled lip and stop bothering the other dog but with something like this that that pup really wants to do it is hard to learn the boundary.

In my own case Bucky seems to be respecting Ginger's freeze a little now, today he has been here 4 weeks. If he isn't amped up he can veer off the bounce and grab now. She mostly is giving him deer in the headlight stuff rather than That Look it seems to me but these are small cute dogs you don't think would be seriously predatory or aggressive so I could be wrong.


----------



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Kathyy, yes once the puppy cowered down so to speak my dog backed off but before then he did show a lot of teeth, growling, nipping at him, etc. Glad your dog is respecting your other dog's signals a little better, that's great! Yes with mine there is a big size difference as well as breed personalities so it is essential for me to keep consistent at what I'm doing so that the puppy respects and adhere's to my dogs signals even if that means me doing it 1000 times. I hope sooner than later but I know I'll get there


----------

