# Blue Merle JRT?



## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I just copy and pasted the ad and pictures since I flagged it.





















> This is a Very Rare breed of the Jack Russell terriers.
> 
> I have 2 females left. They need their first shots but, they are ready to go. They were born on 3/6/2013 but they are eating puppy food.
> 
> I'm asking a rehoming fee of $150. One of the girls her spots outlined with the blue merle, and the other girl her color is mixed with the blue merle and has a blue merle spot on her right side.



Besides the fact that they were bred by extremely irresponsible people. (Born on March 6th and ready to go?!) Just awful.

But, besides that... I had no idea JRTs came in that color. Or do they not and this is just probably a mix being sold off as a "rare breed" or whatever?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm pretty sure JRTs don't come in merle.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

They do not come in that color. More than likely it's a doxie mix (and is dappled).

I checked the breed standard. They can come in tan, brown, black, cream and tri (on white).


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## TrainerJoe (Apr 1, 2013)

Seems like they just switched the word "mixed" with "rare".


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## kathylcsw (Jul 4, 2011)

I am a long time JRT lover and will always have one in my home. As such I HATE this! One of the reason that the breed has been so healthy was because people weren't messing with the standards. This could be a death knell for my beloved breed and it really bothers me. JRT's are not supposed to be merle or have blue eyes. That is just wrong!! The breeder I got Lola from just added a female blue merle to her kennel and I hate it. JRT's are awesome enough just as they are and I wish they could just be left alone.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Yeah....I'm pretty sure instead of saying "rare breed of JRT" they should have said "JRT mix". They are pretty cute though....I really hope someone gives them a good home after a not so good beginning.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I would guess they're mixed with dachshund to get that color.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Just another heartless BYB looking to make a buck quick as they can.
Sad thing is, someone will buy these poor pups and likely breed the h*** out of them.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Merle is getting mixed into a lot of breeds it isn't "supposed" to be found in... chihuahuas, cocker spaniels, schnauzers, even huskies. It's a shame, really, but they're just giving the people what they want.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

They don't come in that color, brindle/Merle colors can pop up much like pricked ears or more less then 51% white (too much color) they must be 51% white (all white is actually very common & is NOT a rare color, bear had two white litter mates & has a white uncle lol) with patches of: tan, black, or tricolor.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> They don't come in that color, brindle/Merle colors can pop up much like pricked ears or more less then 51% white (too much color) they must be 51% white (all white is actually very common & is NOT a rare color, bear had two white litter mates & has a white uncle lol) with patches of: tan, black, or tricolor.


Merle can't "pop up". It's dominant, not recessive. so one of the parents had to be merle.

ETA: You can make an argument about cryptic merles, but merle has to be present in the breed in general to have dogs who are cryptic merles.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Merle can't "pop up". It's dominant, not recessive. so one of the parents had to be merle.
> 
> ETA: You can make an argument about cryptic merles, but merle has to be present in the breed in general to have dogs who are cryptic merles.


Yes, this. There's no mystery about how merle gets into a breed - it pretty much has to be introduced (barring the infinitesimally small probability of an independent mutation which, gee, I doubt is suddenly happening simultaneously in several breeds at once).


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Ugh & their noses ARE NOT BLACK either :/ that alone is enough for a responsible breeder to "cull" (figuratively speaking of course, not literally) them from the breeding program & sell them on spay/neuter contracts


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Merle can't just pop up in a breed. There's another breed mixed in there.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Ugh & their noses ARE NOT BLACK either :/ that alone is enough for a responsible breeder to "cull" (figuratively speaking of course, not literally) them from the breeding program & sell them on spay/neuter contracts


Really? That's what is so wrong about these puppies? Clearly the breeder isn't in any way responsible. The fact that puppies are only 4 weeks old is the first clue.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

There's not a single thing responsible about that ad, or that 'breeder'... it was found on Craigslist, they were called "rare blue merle JRTs" (I heard they changed it to mixed though?), and they're being sold at 4 weeks old for 150 bucks... people disgust me.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

Just wanted to point out; merle actually is a legal cocker color in the AKC world. I have a blue merle cocker spaniel. He also has one blue eye which would not make him breed standard. He's a wonderful awesome dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The AKC has accepted merle in several breeds where most/all other registries do not. Merle pomeranians and chihuahuas can be shown in the AKC but cannot be shown in other registries and are listed as DQ's. All the breeds start showing the color at about the same time. It's a big controversy in all of them. Like I said, merle just doesn't 'pop up' without it being crossed in.

But from a quick glance of the cocker spaniel standard there is no mention of merle.

American Spaniel Club's statement:



> It is the opinion of the American Spaniel club Board of Directors that the breeding of this mutation should be stopped for the obvious health reasons identified in the study. Our standard is already clear that this pattern is a confirmation disqualification. We hope that through a combination of education and the tracking made possible with the Z registration we are providing information and knowledge to current breeders and to future generations of breeders to make informed choices.
> 
> Thank you,


http://www.asc-cockerspaniel.org/index.php/merle-cockers.html


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

kathylcsw said:


> The breeder I got Lola from just added a female blue merle to her kennel and I hate it.


 So. . .presumably the breeder got a registered blue merle JRT from somewhere? I guess they can be merle, or is something hinky going on there?


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> The AKC has accepted merle in several breeds where most/all other registries do not. Merle pomeranians and chihuahuas can be shown in the AKC but cannot be shown in other registries and are listed as DQ's. All the breeds start showing the color at about the same time. It's a big controversy in all of them. Like I said, merle just doesn't 'pop up' without it being crossed in.
> 
> But from a quick glance of the cocker spaniel standard there is no mention of merle.
> 
> ...


Ok I just reread it again! Apparently I was reading things that weren't there!  I got him from a breeder who sells her dog strictly as pets. She loves her dogs and raises puppies in the house and I think she produces good quality and good tempered puppies. However, she does do some things I don't agree with. My dog has one blue eye. She told me she really wanted me to let him have a litter. I told her I wasn't interested in that. The more I'm learning about cockers, and for as much as I love my dog (see former post I think I found my dream dog) I'm really glad I made that decision. He is not breed standard. I wasn't interested in producing puppies just for the sake of producing puppies. He will be nuetered when he is old enough.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

So.... Just for my own curiosity, why is it a bad thing for merle to be mixed into the breed? I know double merle has lots of problems associated with it but assuming its a single merle... What are the actual health reasons its a bad thing?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> So.... Just for my own curiosity, why is it a bad thing for merle to be mixed into the breed? I know double merle has lots of problems associated with it but assuming its a single merle... What are the actual health reasons its a bad thing?





> The merle gene is often associated with congenital deafness, with merle dogs being more likely than other dogs to be born deaf. Dogs with two copies of the merle gene (homozygous merle or "double merle") have an even higher chance of being born deaf.[13] T





> One study done by a German researcher showed that out of 38 dachshunds, they found partial hearing loss in 54.6% of double merles, and 36.8% of single merles.


There are health issues associated with merle. Double merle only means the dogs are more likely to have those issues. Also there's an issue with the fact that for merle to be introduced to the breed, it had to come from an outcross. You can't even claim health at that point, since merle comes with health issues. JRT do not have a problem with deafness. Add merle to the mix and you can bet your pants they do NOW. Nevermind the dishonesty of claiming they're purebred.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Most (all?) of these breeds have closed studbooks. Breeders are not allowed to just mix in a purebred of some other breed. Therefore, they lie about it (claiming that merle just "popped up" in one of their litters), meaning that the pedigrees are not accurate. It's hard to responsibly breed when you can't trust the dogs' pedigrees. 

Plus, I have little faith that the people breeding merle into their lines are going to be careful about double merle, especially if they're falsifying pedigrees.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Because its against the standard for the breed
This is the official standard per the JRTCA: http://www.therealjackrussell.com/jrtca/standard.php

This is info on why the JRTCA jack Russell is considered the REAL jack Russell: http://www.therealjackrussell.com/jrtca/realjack.php


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

It's a shame that merle is associated with health issues... because I'm still in total love of blue merle aussies.  My absolute favorite color.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Because its against the standard for the breed
> This is the official standard per the JRTCA: http://www.therealjackrussell.com/jrtca/standard.php
> 
> This is info on why the JRTCA jack Russell is considered the REAL jack Russell: http://www.therealjackrussell.com/jrtca/realjack.php


The fact that the dogs are merle is all you need to know to realize they aren't purebred. Black noses or not really isn't an issue here when their color isn't even standard. I'm pretty sure there isn't much about those puppies that conforms to standard.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> It's a shame that merle is associated with health issues... because I'm still in total love of blue merle aussies.  My absolute favorite color.


I love merle and think it's gorgeous - and I don't mind deaf dogs, at all. I'd just have to know the breeding practices and health testing before financially supporting a breeder who was producing merle dogs - same as any other dog, actually. Obviously, anyone doing double merle breeding would be RIGHT out.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

aiw said:


> So.... Just for my own curiosity, why is it a bad thing for merle to be mixed into the breed? I know double merle has lots of problems associated with it but assuming its a single merle... What are the actual health reasons its a bad thing?


No in simple terms. The color itself isn't an issue. The issue becomes when it isn't part of the breed standard example JRTs it is mixed with something. ACD a lot of times. Most reputable breeders aren't doing this. So these dogs tend to come from puppy mills or bybs or are oops litters. Parents of these puppies aren't usually top in their breed.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I love merle and think it's gorgeous - and I don't mind deaf dogs, at all. I'd just have to know the breeding practices and health testing before financially supporting a breeder who was producing merle dogs - same as any other dog, actually. Obviously, anyone doing double merle breeding would be RIGHT out.


I do agree with all this and there are red flags everywhere about the overall quality of the breeder (obvious dishonesty about his breeding practices, claiming "purebred" and worst of all letting the pups go _way_ too young). 

Personally, I don't see the idea of breeding a mix or an out of standard dog as in itself bad unless there are other problems associated with it. The fact that merle isn't a standard colour wouldn't in itself be any problem to me personally. I didn't realize single merle had such a high rate of hearing problems too though... Its a shame, merle is my favorite coloring. The risk was deemed acceptable in many breeds though... So I think it could be found acceptable here too unless there are other aggravating health factors.

Like I said though there are clearly problems with this breeder that have nothing to do with what colours the pups are.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> I do agree with all this and there are red flags everywhere about the overall quality of the breeder (obvious dishonesty about his breeding practices, claiming "purebred" and worst of all letting the pups go _way_ too young).
> 
> Personally, I don't see the idea of breeding a mix or an out of standard dog as in itself bad unless there are other problems associated with it. The fact that merle isn't a standard colour wouldn't in itself be any problem to me personally. I didn't realize single merle had such a high rate of hearing problems too though... Its a shame, merle is my favorite coloring. The risk was deemed acceptable in many breeds though... So I think it could be found acceptable here too unless there are other aggravating health factors.
> 
> Like I said though there are clearly problems with this breeder that have nothing to do with what colours the pups are.



I don't give a flip if they're breeding mixed breed dogs. Promoting them as purebred, though, which is the THING to do when it's appearing in other breeds? And the genetics don't work that way? 

I've got a big problem with that. 

(The risks associated being acceptable is kind of iffy. If you're working with a large gene pool of merle dogs, it's easy enough to only breed ones with good hearing. Do you really think they're doing BAER testing on dogs they're dragging in for outcrossing and then falsifying the pedigrees of the litter? I kind of doubt it. So you're also introducing hearing issues.).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, if someone wants to mix JRTs and dapple dachshunds and sell them as a merle mix, that's one thing. But most of the people who are doing this are LYING and saying that merle "popped up" in a litter between two purebreds of the same breed. They're falsifying pedigrees. That is a stupid and dangerous thing to do -- when a good breeder is choosing a stud for their bitch, they go back through pedigrees to check ancestors for health issues/temperament/type, which they can't accurately do when the pedigrees are a lie.

I'm dreading the day that merle "pops up" in papillons. I have seen one blue-eyed papillon in my life, and that did seem to be a genetic mutation. The (responsible) breeder had it altered and sold as a pet, I believe.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Yeah, if someone wants to mix JRTs and dapple dachshunds and sell them as a merle mix, that's one thing. But most of the people who are doing this are LYING and saying that merle "popped up" in a litter between two purebreds of the same breed. They're falsifying pedigrees. That is a stupid and dangerous thing to do -- when a good breeder is choosing a stud for their bitch, they go back through pedigrees to check ancestors for health issues/temperament/type, which they can't accurately do when the pedigrees are a lie.
> 
> I'm dreading the day that merle "pops up" in papillons. I have seen one blue-eyed papillon in my life, and that did seem to be a genetic mutation. The (responsible) breeder had it altered and sold as a pet, I believe.


If they even have pedigrees. I think there are a lot of BYB who say "Oh yeah, the parents are purebred and registered, but I can't find their paperwork. They're just pets anyway, we don't need any of that fancy paperwork stuff." Or they promise to send papers later and never do (because they don't exist). How many stories do we hear of people who have "purebred dogs", but they were never quite able to get the papers from the breeder so they gave up, and one look at the dog tells you it's probably not purebred.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

There has been some controversy over merle "popping up" in litters from reputable breeders too, though. I worry more about them than about the BYBs. The future of the breed is supposed to be in their hands -- they're supposed to be bettering the breed, not introducing more problems.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> There has been some controversy over merle "popping up" in litters from reputable breeders too, though. I worry more about them than about the BYBs. The future of the breed is supposed to be in their hands -- they're supposed to be bettering the breed, not introducing more problems.


Ahh, yes. That's a whole different issue!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I can't speak for the quality of this chihuahua breeder (haven't looked around the site), but here is a good article about merle in chis, written by a genetics professor: right here.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

aiw said:


> So.... Just for my own curiosity, why is it a bad thing for merle to be mixed into the breed? I know double merle has lots of problems associated with it but assuming its a single merle... What are the actual health reasons its a bad thing?





aiw said:


> I do agree with all this and there are red flags everywhere about the overall quality of the breeder (obvious dishonesty about his breeding practices, claiming "purebred" and worst of all letting the pups go _way_ too young).
> 
> Personally, I don't see the idea of breeding a mix or an out of standard dog as in itself bad unless there are other problems associated with it. The fact that merle isn't a standard colour wouldn't in itself be any problem to me personally. I didn't realize single merle had such a high rate of hearing problems too though... Its a shame, merle is my favorite coloring. The risk was deemed acceptable in many breeds though... So I think it could be found acceptable here too unless there are other aggravating health factors.
> 
> Like I said though there are clearly problems with this breeder that have nothing to do with what colours the pups are.


Merle does have health concerns attached to it. The bottom line is that whoever is producing rare merle ________ breed dogs is bringing the color in only for the color. There's enough issues in breeds that already have merle dogs as far as people breeding them without regard to the health consequences. Lots of superstition and blatant disregard of how the genetics of the pattern works and can negatively affect dogs. A lot of 'BYBs' (hate the term) won't even know that merle x merle is an issue.

The color is flashy and a lot of people really find it pretty (it's not my favorite color to be honest). There is a great incentive to produce merles- monetarily speaking. In shelties I've seen this encourage people to breed double merle studs who can throw entire flashy merle litters. There's beliefs that double merles throw prettier/clearer colored puppies. In breeds where it already exists people are a-okay with breeding deaf and blind puppies (some with no functioning eyes). Now we're giving them more breeds to play in?

In the end it is a pretty pattern but also a somewhat dangerous gene to have around. There is really NO reason to add it in to breeds that don't already have it. The only thing it can do is potentially harm said breed. I'm not saying remove it from breeds where it already exists, because it's there to stay. But why add in something like that to a breed?

I am FINE with breeding mixes. But trading a pretty color for potential health issues is something I'm not okay with.



Crantastic said:


> I'm dreading the day that merle "pops up" in papillons. I have seen one blue-eyed papillon in my life, and that did seem to be a genetic mutation. The (responsible) breeder had it altered and sold as a pet, I believe.


I have seen an advertisement for them a few years ago. Luckily it hasn't caught on but I think it's just a matter of time.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I have seen an advertisement for them a few years ago. Luckily it hasn't caught on but I think it's just a matter of time.


Oh yeah, I'm sure. It's already difficult to tell some long-haired chis apart from papillons, so it would be so easy for someone to breed merle chis with their papillons and falsify pedigrees. Ugh.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> No in simple terms. The color itself isn't an issue. The issue becomes when it isn't part of the breed standard example JRTs it is mixed with something. ACD a lot of times. Most reputable breeders aren't doing this. So these dogs tend to come from puppy mills or bybs or are oops litters. Parents of these puppies aren't usually top in their breed.


Just a note, ACDs are not merle. They are ticked/roaned.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Merle is getting mixed into a lot of breeds it isn't "supposed" to be found in... chihuahuas, cocker spaniels, schnauzers, even huskies. It's a shame, really, but they're just giving the people what they want.


Merle Huskies?!

Then again, I saw a website for a goldendoodle breeder who was so proud that she had figured out how to breed blue eyed golden retrievers. Her stated goal was a litter of all blue eyed goldendoodles, for the "discriminating buyer".


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Hmmm.... I guess I'll ask the same question. Whats the health issues with blue eyes?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> Hmmm.... I guess I'll ask the same question. Whats the health issues with blue eyes?


You are REALLY missing the point, and I'm not sure if it's deliberate or not. 

Not one person here has a single issue with mixed breed dogs being deliberately bred. Not one.

We have a problem with LYING TO PEOPLE about what they are doing, and falsifying records designed to enable breeders to produce sound, healthy puppies.

"Dogs with blue eyes in breeds for which brown or golden is the standard often have what is called a dilute coat color for their breed, and as this is a combination of recessive genes, it's sometimes accompanied by health problems" (I found that in two minutes on google, no idea of the veracity of that one- plus, as you know, there's the pibald thing Lauralin mentioned that didn't even enter my sleepy head). Or, they're the result of an outcross which involves lying to people and flasifying pedigrees, and thereby risking tons of generations of puppies because accurate information about the dog's actual parent is not available. Since _there's a fake name on the pedigree_.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Depends on what is causing he blue eyes. Blue eyes in huskies have no issues linked to them.

Jrts and paps are both piebald. Blue eyes there are often times linked to deafness. Really it is an issue with lack of pigment. No pigment in the inner ear equals a deaf dog. So that is why some breeds like paps really stress dark pigmentation(eyes/leather/ears). 

Dals are another one where blue eyes are often seen linked to deafness.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> We have a problem with LYING TO PEOPLE about what they are doing, and falsifying records designed to enable breeders to produce sound, healthy puppies.


I agree with this (like I said before). What I'm trying to figure out is whether the mixing itself is wrong and dangerous (unhealthy) or its the lying about it that is the essential problem. Many people have made the argument that its out of standard and therefore irresponsible, since I don't agree with that principle I was just asking if it was out of standard for a specific health reason or an issue of type.

I don't actually know if there are health problems associated with blue eyes. I was just asking.



> Depends on what is causing he blue eyes. Blue eyes in huskies have no issues linked to them.
> 
> Jrts and paps are both piebald. Blue eyes there are often times linked to deafness. Really it is an issue with lack of pigment. No pigment in the inner ear equals a deaf dog. So that is why some breeds like paps really stress dark pigmentation(eyes/leather/ears).
> 
> Dals are another one where blue eyes are often seen linked to deafness.


Interesting. So another potential problem with the JRT puppies, that their noses aren't black so they're at higher risk for deafness. Weird how its fine in huskies (even the white ones?) but not fine in JRTs and Paps. Must have to do with the interaction between the piebald genotype and the blue eyes somehow....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Merle does have health concerns attached to it. The bottom line is that whoever is producing rare merle ________ breed dogs is bringing the color in only for the color. There's enough issues in breeds that already have merle dogs as far as people breeding them without regard to the health consequences. Lots of superstition and blatant disregard of how the genetics of the pattern works and can negatively affect dogs. A lot of 'BYBs' (hate the term) won't even know that merle x merle is an issue.
> 
> The color is flashy and a lot of people really find it pretty (it's not my favorite color to be honest). There is a great incentive to produce merles- monetarily speaking. In shelties I've seen this encourage people to breed double merle studs who can throw entire flashy merle litters. There's beliefs that double merles throw prettier/clearer colored puppies. In breeds where it already exists people are a-okay with breeding deaf and blind puppies (some with no functioning eyes). Now we're giving them more breeds to play in?
> 
> ...


Very well said, this is exactly how I feel about it.



Amaryllis said:


> Merle Huskies?!


Yes. I believe they get around it by registering them as piebald - which unfortunately doesn't do anything for avoiding merle-merle breedings by someone who thinks they have piebald dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

aiw said:


> Interesting. So another potential problem with the JRT puppies, that their noses aren't black so they're at higher risk for deafness. Weird how its fine in huskies (even the white ones?) but not fine in JRTs and Paps. Must have to do with the interaction between the piebald genotype and the blue eyes somehow....


White huskies are not white. They're really light cream. 

Piebald white is a true white aka the dog has no pigment. An all white papillon or JRT has no pigment. Bichons, samoyeds, cotons, etc etc are not actually white. They're light red/cream.

Husky blue eyes are separate from color. Aussies and BCs are confusing because their blue eyes can be separate from the color or they can be related to the color. 

Panda shepherds are another mutation from the looks of things. So yet ANOTHER way white can be inherited.

This is why it is dangerous to say 'well X breed can be this color so why can't Y breed too?' White is not always white. Blue eyes are not always 'just blue eyes'.

Shelties are a good example: they can be white due to piebald or white due to being double merle. I don't think the founding people in the breed understood the difference. Color headed whites can look a lot like double merles. So that is why you traditionally see 50% white or more = BAD! in that breed.

Paps emphasize color on the head, ears, and strong pigment in the leather (black nose, eye rims, etc). Pigmentation is important in piebald dogs.

One other quick example: Golden retriever color and blue eyes could be problematic if the eyes are inherited due to the dog being merle. EE red hides merle. The dog will look solid in color. The only indication of merling would be IF the dog has blue or partially blue eyes. This doesn't always happen though. So you can have a dog that looks gold with brown eyes and when bred to a merle, will throw double merle pups.

This actually happens in BCs. A gold BC can be genetically merle. My friend's BC's sire is gold with brown eyes and he threw merle pups. No one knew before... So it's generally recommended if you have an ee red dog that had a merle parent to test breed it to a solid first so you know. If there are merle pups then your gold colored dog is actually merle.

In an all ee red breed? Probably not a good thing. There's a reason Aussie folk decided not to allow ee reds and sables. You can't see merle so well in that and it's easy to mess up and breed double merles accidentally. Merle complicates things.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Not one person here has a single issue with mixed breed dogs being deliberately bred. Not one.
> 
> We have a problem with LYING TO PEOPLE about what they are doing, and falsifying records designed to enable breeders to produce sound, healthy puppies.


Yes, this. When Crystal's breeder is choosing a stud dog to use, she goes back through pedigrees and checks out every ancestor. She looks at size, soundness, offspring, health (how long they lived, if they developed any major issues), whether they've produced phalenes or mismarks, all of that. Now, let's say someone had mixed some other breed into their lines, lying on the pedigrees and claiming that the'd used a papillon when they didn't. Crystal's breeder would be using false information to decide what to breed into her lines. She could unknowingly breed in mismarks or genetic issues or temperament issues or whatever else. That would harm her careful breeding program.

I don't have an issue with people (responsibly) breeding mixes. I DO have an issue with people lying about what they are producing. I have a big issue with people knowingly breeding colors that can cause major problems into breeds that historically haven't had those colors (and therefore haven't had those problems).


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> White huskies are not white. They're really light cream.
> 
> Piebald white is a true white aka the dog has no pigment. An all white papillon or JRT has no pigment. Bichons, samoyeds, cotons, etc etc are not actually white. They're light red/cream.
> 
> ...


 Wow.

Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. Its obviously a very complicated process... I suppose if you knew the heritage of the dogs inside and out you could reduce the risk with careful breeding. Or maybe you could reduce the risk by bringing in the blue eyed trait from the 'cream' husky instead of the piebald breeds. Not saying it should be done, just considering ways it could. I know it sometimes sounds like I'm supporting irresponsible breeding practices. I don't, I just like to know the health reasons behind policy (where they exist). I tend to resist conformity in general so "because its out of standard" just doesn't sit well with me and I can't resist pushing the envelope about why  

Of course, there are times when its out of standard for a damn good reason and that's well worth knowing about.

EDIT: and I'm really not okay with the lying - as I've said throughout.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

aiw said:


> Wow.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. Its obviously a very complicated process... I suppose if you knew the heritage of the dogs inside and out you could reduce the risk with careful breeding. Or maybe you could reduce the risk by bringing in the blue eyed trait from the 'cream' husky instead of the piebald breeds. Not saying it should be done, just considering ways it could. I know it sometimes sounds like I'm supporting irresponsible breeding practices. I don't, I just like to know the health reasons behind policy (where they exist). I tend to resist conformity in general so "because its out of standard" just doesn't sit well with me and I can't resist pushing the envelope about why
> 
> ...


No problem! I love talking genetics. 

I would think theoretically you could use the husky or aussie blue eyes but to be honest I have no idea how that gene really works. You can lessen risks but if you took a merle dog and added it into a line of ee red dogs and bred just red for generations... you wouldn't know what you've got under there at all. 

I think it's important to remember (in regards to why adding merle in specific can be bad) that merle is a pattern, not a color. There is no gene for 'blue merle', there's just... merle. It's acting on what is already there and already in the breed. In the 'merle' most people are familiar with- blue and liver (also called red) it is generally easy to see. When it's in populations with other colors, it is much more difficult. ee red hides it completely. Light sable merles are usually apparent at birth but as adults can be completely indistinguishable from adult sable dogs. Similarly fawn merles can be apparent at birth but then grow out and look like regular fawns, especially if the greying gene is in the breed. Pyr sheps are like this. The rough coated fawn merles and the rough coated fawns with the greying gene look exactly the same as adults. 

JRTs have light sable dogs. Plus with so much white on them already, there is a good good chance you'd end up with a sable merle that you have no idea is a sable merle. If you've only got a few spots of color then it's more likely you won't actually see the merling. Plus add in the sable... Cockers are the same way. Sables and then on top of that they have roan dogs. So many people have trouble telling roans and merles apart. And chis come in fawn and sable a lot. So you end up with people registering dogs wrong and then not knowing their dog is merle. Breed that dog to another merle and you've got problems. Unintentional, but still problems.

I've learned that it's hard to get breeders to understand coat color genetics. We don't even know all of it to begin with but trying to explain why Summer is a sable and not a red and white is impossible. Summer is registered wrong.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

aiw said:


> I tend to resist conformity in general so "because its out of standard" just doesn't sit well with me and I can't resist pushing the envelope about why


Kind of funny, though... if everybody decided not to care about breed standards anymore, just breeding whatever to whatever, all dogs would eventually end up looking very generic dog (pretty much like a Carolina dog). Ultimate conformity.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ex:

This dog is merle: http://essfc.com/ssfcpics/colours/Tannersablemerle.jpg
This dog is merle: http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/sable_merle_bordercollie.jpg
This dog is merle: http://i53.tinypic.com/2ibzqbn.jpg
Here's a good example of an ee red merle: http://www.freewebs.com/ashpen/rhikey.htm

All pulled off google really fast.

ETA: Scout in particular here: http://www.colliesofdeepriver.com/home/the-sable-merle-the-collie-standard-my-thoughts/


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> There's not a single thing responsible about that ad, or that 'breeder'... it was found on Craigslist, they were called "rare blue merle JRTs" (I heard they changed it to mixed though?), and they're being sold at 4 weeks old for 150 bucks... people disgust me.


And before their first set of shots.....poor things might not make it past Parvo...


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Kind of funny, though... if everybody decided not to care about breed standards anymore, just breeding whatever to whatever, all dogs would eventually end up looking very generic dog (pretty much like a Carolina dog). Ultimate conformity.


Or we could do a free for all and end up with the craziest dogs known to man! There is probably an advantage to a 4 legged dog though, so maybe we shouldn't go _too_ overboard. 

Laurelin - I never would have guessed those were merle dogs! I can tell the difference between roaning and merle generally but clearly not on lighter coats without some more practice. I do have a question about blue eyes though, I'm assuming its a recessive trait like in humans? Where do you read all this about genetics... A blog somewhere?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

Both good.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

aiw said:


> Or we could do a free for all and end up with the craziest dogs known to man!


HA maybe we should just take the pups advertized on Craigslist and breed them together.. that would be pretty crazy... (Just kidding)...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Once upon a long time ago I studied genetics in college. Until I realized there was a lot more chemistry than I wanted and I switched to math. We had to take tests on animal color genetics. It was fun. 

I like those sites Cran linked too. 

From what I know it seems like blue eyes can be recessive or dominant in dogs. Explanation here: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/eyes.html

It's not always as cut and dried. Black coat color for example can be recessive or dominant. Black and white shelties are recessive black whereas black and white BCs are dominant black.


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## Russell Terrier lvers (Apr 7, 2013)

This the owner of the puppies that you copied the pictures of my puppies. The father is from Yates Center and he left 2 weeks before he was supposed to. Just to let you know we talked to the vet and other vets and they said it was ok for them to leave.
Here a site I found on Google looking up the breed of my dog.


NKC JACK RUSSELL PUPPIES - RARE BLUE MERLES

Please Contact 


GORGEOUS SHORT LEGGED "PUDDIN JACKS" ! SMOOTH COATS, STOCKY BUILDS. HEALTH GUARANTEE. BREEDER FOR 20 YEARS. RARE BLUE MERLES - $450 - $600 EACH. BROWN EYES ARE $450, ONE/TWO BLUE EYES - $600. READY 2ND WEEK OF FEBRUARY 2013- Update 3/1/13 - only one pup left - BLUE MERLE FEMALE WITH BLUE EYES ! Pick of the litter !!
http://ebayc.us/24514691


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> The opposite of following conformity isn't 'resisting conformity' it is 'ignoring conformity'.


Actually, in my view the opposite of following conformity _is _resisting conformity. The opposite of caring what the majority does is simply not caring what they do at all. As you pointed out that doesn't mean simply doing the opposite it just means deciding on your own criteria and not caring what the rest of the crowd's is. In my case at least it means I end up with some opinions held by majority and others which aren't.

Just as an objective exercise I also think there is value in doing something differently just for the sake of doing it differently. It would be an exhausting and silly exercise to employ everywhere in life but I think its a great way to get a different perspective and discover new possibilities. Assuming the weim wasn't unhealthy or harmed in some way because of the switch I wouldn't care if the only reason for the mix was "I like brindle and wanted to try a brindle weim". Almost all of what is bred for pets nowadays is preference instead of need anyways. 

Obviously I don't stand behind this particular breeder though. They seem to have no clue what they're doing and I of course agree there are far more important considerations than simply being different when making a new life and I doubt very much this breeder is respecting those. The completely theoretical scenario I have in mind is assuming that a 'standardized' and 'out of standard' dog will be equally healthy I don't see any problem with doing something just to be different or because of a personal preference.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

There are studies out there (how valid they are I don't know) that say that merle dogs (not double merle) have a higher risk of deafness and eye problems. This simply isn't true, *a merle dog is at NO higher risk of health problems than any solid colored dog.* DOUBLE MERLE dogs have more health problems, but MERLES do not. Sadly I have even seen the "merles have more health problems, even a single copy of the merle gene can cause an increase in deafness and eye problems!" thing listed on breed club websites for breeds who are against merling in their breed. I believe they should be against it being introduced, but spreading false information is not a way to speak out against it.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

akodo said:


> A double Merle has a greatly increased chance of having all sorts of eye problems...yet those same eye problems are often observed to exist at less severity and in one eye only of single merle dogs.
> 
> A double Merle is often (but not always) deaf. This is due to the pigmentation of the inner ear's skin and hairs being effected. Single Merle dogs are being found to have enough area of their inner ear effected to often have reduced hearing. (Of course a single merle dog that hears half as good in both ears as a normal dog still hears quite well. )


So you believe that the diluted areas of the dog make it at risk of deafness? Are Weimaraners at risk of deafness? They are solid dilute not just randomly patched so by your words ALL Wiems should have reduced hearing. In all my years of research into deafness I have only ever read that lack of pigment in the inner ear is the cause of deafness.

Just in case I come off as yelling, that's not what I'm doing, I am genuinely wondering where this thought process comes from since it contradicts so many things I have read on the subject.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Russell Terrier lvers said:


> This the owner of the puppies that you copied the pictures of my puppies. The father is from Yates Center and he left 2 weeks before he was supposed to. Just to let you know we talked to the vet and other vets and they said it was ok for them to leave.
> Here a site I found on Google looking up the breed of my dog.
> 
> 
> ...


 Those pups are a month old they are way too young to go to homes. You need to keep them for an absolute _minimum_ of another month before sending them home. They still need their mother and each other, they're newborn babies still. Start looking for buyers now (people on this site will be able to help you do it in a way to find the best homes) and tell them they can take the pups home when they reach 8 weeks old. You can use the price of the pups to spay the mother.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I am glad to see that Keechak cleared that up about single merles being no more likely to have hearing or eyesight problems than any other colored dog, that it is double merles that have the problem. Remmy is a crossbred, is a blue merle and his hearing and eyesight are fine. He has one all blue eye and the other is half brown and half blue. His nose is completely black.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Kyllobernese said:


> I am glad to see that Keechak cleared that up about single merles being no more likely to have hearing or eyesight problems than any other colored dog, that it is double merles that have the problem. Remmy is a crossbred, is a blue merle and his hearing and eyesight are fine. He has one all blue eye and the other is half brown and half white. His nose is completely black.


Unfortunately the "fact" that heterozygous merles are more likely to be deaf and have eye problems than the non merled of the same breed has been passed around on so many websites I have been unable to find any actual studies that it originally came from. If anyone can point me to the original study let me know, I would love to read it! But that "fact" goes against all current research I am aware of.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

akodo said:


> There are a TON of studies who have found that. In my FIRST google attempt the TOP result from 'heterozygous merle related to deafness' was
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19192156
> 
> ...


My responses are in bold, your last article you posted would be an article I would use to support my own statement that heterozygous merles are at no greater risk of issues than non merles.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Just because someone else is selling these dogs doesn't mean they're purebred. Do your dogs have papers at all? JRTCA? If they do not then you really have no idea the breeding of the dogs. I will tell you though that jack russells can't come in merle. Genetics just doesn't work that way. Something else WAS mixed in the line at some point. 

Many states have laws that make it illegal to let puppies go before 8 weeks. You need to check the laws where you live. Even if it is not illegal to sell the pups that young where you are, please please please reconsider. It is very beneficial for the pups to stay with their mom and littermates until they are at least 8 weeks old. Most small dog breeders I know actually keep their pups longer- 10-12 weeks is very common.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

German shepherds do come in white. There's a difference between colors that are genetically possible but not to standard and then colors that are just not genetically possible within the purebred population. The former means the dog isn't show quality, the latter means the dog is mixed.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuspuppysaletable.htm

Found some information about what the laws are of each state in regards to puppy age before sale.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL I can't imagine any vet saying it's ok for a 4 week old puppy to be sold to a new home, let alone two independent vets. I've had so many people lie about things I've supposedly told them (sometimes TO me, as in "the other vet said xyz" when I WAS the "other" vet and they just don't remember!) that I'm immune to bizarre claims of what a vet said.

And "but so-and-so is doing it, too!" didn't fly with my parents when I was a kid, so I'm not sure why you think it would fly here. Snrk.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

A reminder: If you don't like the responses you get on a public forum, you are absolutely entitled to ignore them (though sometimes at your own peril.)

You are NOT entitled to lash out with insults, and profanity (even when cleverly shrouded with *****) is never going to be tolerated.


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## BamaChicken (Jul 16, 2016)

Very cute puppies


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## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

Sorry Russell Terrier lvers but quoting the NKC is like saying "A friend of my brothers friend once knew someone who".

They exist to take peoples money and tada they can say it is a registered dog.

There requirement is a vet to say that it is breed "X" and a front and side photo, oh and $18.00.


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