# What is a Dutch Shepherd?



## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

A year ago I precious puppy came into my life. She had apparently been abandoned with no chip, collar or tag and had been hanging around the neighborhood for a couple of weeks. She was very weak and bony, and basically slept for two days straight when she came home with us. I had never seen a dog that looked anything like her, and I was curious as to what type of mix she could possibly be (I was assuming she was a mix). In my search I came across a photo of a dog that seemed to be the same breed as Ginger, a short haired Dutch Shepherd. I read half amazed at what seemed to describe a rare breed that was basically a super dog that could do anything. If a breed was so rare and so desirable, why would a puppy be abandoned? I still don't have an answer, but I have found other dogs like ginger up for adoption. For such an apparently rare breed, I was amazed at how much of the information available was contradictory and confusing. I joined the Dutch Shepherd Forum where my dog was deemed "not a dutch shepherd" and they kicked me off the site for "trolling" I have done more research since then and can say for certain the "experts" on that site dispense information that is highly suspect and they seem to have a zero tolerance policy on debate and opinions. 
My dog appears to be a "Kruising Hollandse Herder", or a mixed-bred short hair. These dogs have been bred larger for police dog and other types of work and have malinois and some GSD in them. It seems to me some of the "American" dutch shepherd aficionados don't recognize these "Dutch" dutch shepherds as Dutch shepherds at all and their history is all a myth. I don't know why. 
Anyone out there with experience with this breed that would like to discuss?


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

I was having trouble posting this thread with pics, here are more pics


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)




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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Looking at your dog.. Nice looking dog and hard to see the body but I do not see Dutchie at all. In fact what jumps out at me is GSD/ Pit Mix.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

She's very cute. I don't see Dutch Shepherd at all, in neither coloring nor body type. I'd agree with a mix of some sort of bully mix with a more jowly face.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And something is influencing the coat. That dog has a tight coat. Dutchies, Bel Mals, GSDs are all medium length double coated dogs. There is a single coated dog in there somewhere. Based on the color, the coat and other things, that all screams pit.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

We have trained some Dutchies at work and I'm going to have to say that your pup is not a Dutchie. Super cute, though!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Seeing Dutch shepherds walk around regularly, I'll say your dog doesn't strike me as a Dutch shepherd.  

The kruising Hollandse herders you speak of are also referred to KNPV Dutch shepherds. They are an actual thing, you're right about that, it's not a myth.  These dogs are not recognized as official Dutch shepherds and don't have FCI pedigrees, but KNPV dogs do have known lineages and their own pedigrees, though I do not know the specifics there. The dog will be written down as a 'Hollandse herder X' or 'Mechelse herder X' or 'Duitse herder X' to show it's not an actual Dutch shepherd or Malinois or GSD, but looks like one and is from KNPV lines, so has those dogs in its pedigree. These KNPV bred dogs are intense dogs with lots of character, bred for sport and work. If you can appreciate and work with their qualities, you can make them do most anything.  

Even so, your dog doesn't strike me as a KNPV Dutch shepherd either, I'm sorry.  

I agree with JohnnyBandit. I wish those people on the Dutch shepherd forum were a little nicer to you though. I can see where your thoughts about your dog's origins come from.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

You have described your dog as being 90lbs with a mastiff temperament. I am leaning towards your dog having some sort of bully or mastiff parentage as I told you in another post. Your dog appears to have a tight, single coat, not just a short coat, and a lot of jowl. 

The thing about the "Dutch Shepherds" for adoption is that most are not Dutch Shepherds. I see them all of the time here from rescue groups and shelters just like I see many other dogs mislabeled. I don't think it is done on purpose, they just guess a breed and slap a label on dogs. I recently saw a 30lb terrier mix labeled as a Dutch Shepherd.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

You asked me earlier why I asked you about my dog, it was because you seemed to have some knowledge on the subject. If what you say is true though, I'm still left with the mystery of what Ginger is. I've looked through thousands of pics and watched hundreds of hours of videos of DS's and, although I see the differences you speak of, I still see essentially the same breed. It seems logical because of the breeds rarity that she is something else, but I can't find any mix that looks as much like ginger as the DS. I've tried any mix of Akita, GSD, Pt, mastiff, etc and havent found one close. I would love to see a pic of a dog that looks like ginger that is not DS and see what type of mix it is, does anyone have one?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

gingerman said:


> You asked me earlier why I asked you about my dog, it was because you seemed to have some knowledge on the subject. If what you say is true though, I'm still left with the mystery of what Ginger is. I've looked through thousands of pics and watched hundreds of hours of videos of DS's and, although I see the differences you speak of, I still see essentially the same breed. It seems logical because of the breeds rarity that she is something else, but I can't find any mix that looks as much like ginger as the DS. I've tried any mix of Akita, GSD, Pt, mastiff, etc and havent found one close. I would love to see a pic of a dog that looks like ginger that is not DS and see what type of mix it is, does anyone have one?


I have seen dozens of dogs that looked like your dog, they are all over CL. They are just random mixes, mostly pit or mastiff and shepherd. The most recent was the terrier mix but she was considerably smaller and had tighter jowls.

ETA: I just googled pitbullxshepherd and found no less than 10 dogs that looked similar in image search.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Another problem is pictures, it seems very hard for me to get a pic that actually looks like Ginger does in person (Dog?). When Ginger's mouth is closed she looks much more pit like, but when she is say, panting, her snout and mouth look totally shepherdy and not at all pit like. I'm curious, can you post pics or links to the pics? I would like to see. One mixed dog I found recently that has striking similarities to Ginger is a Rottweiler/H.H.x cross. The brindle isn't as dutchie but the facial shape and expression is similar..interesting there is nothing obviously rottie though.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i ssee no dutch shepherd. i had a solid brindle husky mix that a few people thought was a dutchie lol.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad178/i_heart_dakota/Second/9thMemoryCard008-1.jpg
this one comes up as a mastiff x shepherd, there are quite a few others that look just like her body type but without brindle, or with ears that didn't quite stand. That is the trick with mixes, you never quite know what you will get. 

http://www.nylabone.com/dog-house-chatter/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DSCN4299-300x235.jpg
this one comes up for pitbull x shepherd notice the face is more shepherd.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6195/6150727733_16d8d929c1_z.jpg
another one that came up for pitbull x shepherd

These are just the first couple I grabbed that looked similar, there are a ton more. There are ones that look the same but in a different color (black, just brindle on the legs, seal or reverse brindle, more shepherd colors, ect). I also found some in Great Dane x shepherd. There are also some with slightly longer more "shepherdy" coat types or more pitty/mastiffy jowls but I didn't think those necessarily fit, also bigger ears, smaller ears and ears that didn't quite stand. I can't make any gaurantees about these actually being the breed they came up as but I can almost promise they are not actually Dutch Shepherds.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Eh, mutts can end up looking like anything. You could find a dog of the exact same mix and he/she might not look anything like her! I like that uniqueness.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Eh, mutts can end up looking like anything. You could find a dog of the exact same mix and he/she might not look anything like her! I like that uniqueness.


I could not agree more. The last litter of puppies we fostered could not have been more different. You would not have thought they were from the same litter. 

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/pet/4544833970.html
this guy popped up on CL locally, looks like your girl. He is a pitbull x shepherd.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm going to have to agree with the rest, I don't see Dutch Shepherd at all. Maybe a Shepherd mix your cute dog is. 

I know dogs can have a variety of different colors, but as far as I know Dutchies only come in black. I've never heard of a brindle coat before. Can they come in different colors?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Dutchies are brindle, from dark to light. However they have a completely different body, coat, head shape, temperament and size than the OPs dog. 

OP, I understand the desire to pinpoint what your dog is, but sometimes with rescues you just never know. I have mix breed dogs, I can't definitively pinpoint exactly what they are or what came from where in their genetics. That is just the way it is with mixes. My little chihuahua x poodle looks an awful lot like a shihtzu, except she doesn't really. In passing though, if I had no idea what she was, I could argue that she was in fact a very small, leggy, poorly bred shih tzu. It wouldn't make me right but gosh she looks more like my in-law's old shih tzu than any other dog I've seen pictures of.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> I'm going to have to agree with the rest, I don't see Dutch Shepherd at all. Maybe a Shepherd mix your cute dog is.
> 
> I know dogs can have a variety of different colors, but as far as I know Dutchies only come in black. I've never heard of a brindle coat before. Can they come in different colors?












Dutch shepherds only come in brindle, from very darkly brindled, so dark they almost look black, to brindled so light it almost looks like they aren't brindled at all.  Then there are the oddballs, like this purebred longhair Dutch shepherd named Google. 









Google the longhaired Dutch shepherd

Rough coated Dutch shepherds may also come in pepper & salt.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Awesome! Thanks Avie; I learned something new.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Very interesting, thank you for the information! Of course I could be wrong about Ginger and she is just a random mix, I just can't shake the feeling she is somehow related to the KNPV type DS working dog. Much of this is in factors other than appearance. She is a very robust and intrepid dog, and really craves a challenge. At least BELIEVING she is one of these dogs, mistaken or not, has served me well. I've tried to keep her active and challenged, even if her "job" is to be a family pet. She has been a big help with landscaping! she has dug holes for paving stones, moved big piles of sticks, and ripped volunteers out from the ground, and she just LOVES to help


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

It's great reading she's such a great dog to you.  And I really get where you get your thoughts from, but my opinion remains the same.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

A note on the coat, it's not as it might appear. She has a thick undercoat, and the top coat is not that short; not nearly as short as a pit or boxer. The top coat lays so smooth and glossy though it hides the thickness of the undercoat so that she appears much shorter haired, even from a few feet away. Not all dutchies have medium length hair, or else they wouldn't be separated into long and short haired varieties. The coat is one of the similarities to the "H.H.x" variety of "Dutchy", their hair seems even shorter than the short hair, and lay down tight and glossy like Ginger, along with the thicker, more muscular limbs and blockier head and shorter snout; from the pictures and videos I've seen, they do tend to be a bit pitt like compared to other Dutchies (If one considers them Dutchies since they can be of unrecognized pedigrees).


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Why is it important for your dog to be a Dutchie? 

I'm with everyone else... I see no Dutch Shepherd in her. I've known a lot of Dutchies, and your dog is no Dutchie.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Did you look at the links you requested? 

The dog in the pictures you posted has a shorter coat but it is still very obviously a double coat, your dog's is not. Your dog is larger, has the wrong head shape and body shape and looks far more like a mastiff or pit bull shepherd mix than a Dutch Shepherd. That is without addressing your own description of your dog's personality (having more of a bully or mastiff personality than a working dog personality). 

I will second, why is it so important to you that your dog be a Dutch Shepherd?


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes I looked at the pics, the second two don't look like Ginger, the first one does. Do you know for a fact the "shepherd" in the mix was not dutch shepherd? When I do google searches on pit and mastiff shepherd brindle mixes, up pop a bunch of dogs that look nothing like Ginger, and a few that turn out to be dutch shepherds, or they are confused as to what they are. This only confirms my suspicions. If Ginger was a pitt or mastiff mix, then at least one of the many hundreds of people that have actually met her would have noticed something pitt or mastiff like about her, but not one has. All people have ever noticed is that she is a shepherd and she is brindled, except for a few that thought "Dingo", a couple that saw some "houla" mixed in, and exactly three that thought she was a Dutchy, a couple that owned a dutch shepherd themselves, a girl that had a malinois, and one guy that said "I haven't seen one of those since I was in amsterdam" 

BTW, did you read what I read about her coat? It's DEFINITELY not a single coat, my sister-in-law would laugh at that conclusion considering she helped me struggle through her undercoat to apply "Advantix", and uttered a couple of expletives in the frustration of getting down to the skin. 

Why do I think It's "important" that she be a dutchy? I find that a really wierd question. I think she is a Dutchy because she is a brindled shepherd, why should I not think so? Why should I not want to find out the most I can about my rescue? Ginger very well could be a mix, but the most likely scenario would be a Dutchy mix. She very well could not be a dutch shepherd, but that would mean there is a type of shepherd I don't know about, or shepherds bred to look like DS and passed off as such. She DEFINITELY has the personality of a working dog, my last dog was a shepherd/Rott mix, I should know the personality of a working dog.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

Pits, mastiffs and multiple other breeds are also working dogs... Numerous breeds have similar working drives. My Standard poodle thrives on working and remaining active. Several people with firsthand, non-google experience with recognizing Dutch Shepherds along with, apparently, _a forum of Dutch Shepherd owners_ have told you your dog does not resemble the breed in the least. 

You have a lovely mixed breed with an active personality. She is probably a mix of multiple breeds/mixes of breeds. When well mixed, dogs do often revert to a moderately sized, prick eared dog. You do not need to know the individual numerous breeds are in there to be able to work with your individual dog's drive. Unless you know who bred the litter, it will always be speculation when you have a mixed breed. And there's nothing wrong with that.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I guess I just don't understand. Your dog looks like a Dutch Shepherd to you because it is brindle, has a sort of shepherd head shape (though the muzzle is too short and wide) and perk ears. Despite all of the differences between her and a Dutchie you can't see them when looking at pictures, you only see the differences when looking at pictures of dogs that are not Dutchies. Do you know how many breeds come in brindle? Do you know how many dogs have that face type? Your dog could really be almost any random mix and turn out looking the way she did and it would still be more likely than her being a Dutch Shepherd because she just doesn't look that much like a Dutchie and they aren't that common. Do you even have a Dutch Shepherd breeder within 100miles of you? 

I asked why it was so important to you that your dog be a Dutch Shepherd because despite being told by everyone here and on the Dutch Shepherd board that your dog is not a Dutchie you just keep arguing that she is. Clearly you have already decided what your dog is and nothing anyone says is going to make any difference. As far as random people on the street, most people can't identify dogs. My purebred American Bulldog has been called a Boxer and a Pitbull more times than I can count, no one has ever guess the correct breed, he is dual registered. My Carolina dog is guessed a collie (he doesn't look anything like a collie).


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

hey gingerman, i have a question for you. what breed would you say this dog is?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The reality is your dog is not a Dutchie or Dutchie mix, regardless of how much you want her to be one. She is pretty, but the reality is that Dutch Shepherds are not common enough to mix with every day dogs. Most likely your dog is a Shepherd Pit mix, or a Labradog (a little bit of everything).

Nothing wrong with that, but Dutchie? Nope.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Just doesn't look shepherdy to me, maybe heeler mix? None of this matters as far as Ginger goes, I'm not going to breed her. Ginger is not alone though, there seems to be lots of brindled shepherds that need to be rescued. You can say what you want about Ginger being a dutch shepherd, but you will never convince me that Ginger and precious "Sage" are not the same kind of dog, and at least the humane society thought Sage was a "Dutch Shepherd/Dutch Shepherd Mix". If that helped sage get adopted then I think that was a good call, and like me the new owners can probably blissfully think their dog is a Dutchy and never know the difference, as well as getting guidance as to what type of dog they have from the 1/2 of DS websites that seem to accurately describe Ginger and discounting the other 1/2 that contradicts them. Whats the harm in that?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

she was actually a husky mix lol.. a lot of people thought she was a dutch shepherd for being brindle. if your dog were solid lack i doubt you ever would have come to the conclusion that shes a dutch shepherd.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

The humane society is notorious for mislabeling dogs. It is typically not intentional, sometimes it is done to avoid breed restrictions, but often because volunteers just really aren't that dog savvy. They have seen a picture in a dog book once, not exactly much to go on. I though no one at the Dutch Shepherd Forum agreed with you?

ETA: I agree with Kayota, if your dog had been any other color we wouldn't be having this discussion. You are basing your identification on her markings alone, not ideal considering how common brindle is.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The deal with brindle is she really needs only one parent that was brindle. You either need two kbr genes or a k and a kbr to be brindle. So if one parent was anything other than dominant black (genetically speaking) then the other parent could be brindle. Just as a note, German shepherds are not dominant black- they carry recessive black and also black and tan, sable, etc. So a german shepherd mixing with a brindle dog is likely to give you a brindle puppy. In fact, if the brindle parent is carrying two copies of the brindle gene it will give you ALL brindle puppies. (Unless the GSD is recessive black and the other parent carries recessive black but lets just ignore that because it seems very rare considering only a few breeds have recessive black....)

Brindle is a pretty common color so it could have come from anywhere really. There is nothing saying the brindle would have had to come from a shepherd type dog. She could be 3/4ths german shepherd and 1/4 mastiff (or whatever). Or there could be many generations of mixes in there too. All you need is one brindle ancestor and some non black dogs to pass down the brindle color.

At any rate, I think call her what you want to.

Tdlr;

The K locus is where brindle is. KK or Kk = black dog
k_br k_br OR k k_br = brindle
kk = non (dominant) black and non brindle


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i would hazard to guess that she is gsd and pit bull or something like that. brindle is very common in pit type dogs.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

You are all absolutely correct. If Ginger was black, I would not think she was a dutchy. I've actually already done this thought experiment and know what I would likely think, If she was black I would think Ginger was 3/4 black GSD and 1/4 rottie. My last dog was 1/2 shepherd 1/2 rott, and Ginger doesn't show the obvious rottie signs, but her muscularity and glossy coat, and blocky head would make me think there is some rottie in their maybe, Ginger is built very similar to Val. If she was WHITE I would think she was just a white GSD because some of them are extra stocky, built just like Ginger. The problem is, if she was black, none of you would be saying pitt or mastiff...the reasons you are seeing that is because of the brindle..c'mon you know its true. If she was black though she wouldn't be a dutch shepherd, since they are ALL brindled. Once again, if Ginger was just a random mix, then there wouldn't be so many dogs that look identical to her out there, like this drawing, I don't know where it came from, it just said "Dutch Shepherd Art".. but, outside of the white patch, it looks EXACTLY like ginger did at about 5 months, even the floppy ear.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Nope, if she was black I would still absolutely be saying gsd/pit mix.

I'm sorry you're not being validated here and we're not saying what you want to hear, but that dog *does not* look like a dutch shepherd. She looks like a 'something blocky X GSD'. Since she IS brindle that means one parent was, but that parent was almost definitely not a dutch shepherd. Their breeding is WAY too tightly controlled for that to be a possibility, or for her to have landed in a shelter. It just does not happen.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Nope, if she was black I would still absolutely be saying gsd/pit mix.
> 
> I'm sorry you're not being validated here and we're not saying what you want to hear, but that dog *does not* look like a dutch shepherd. She looks like a 'something block X GSD'. Since she IS brindle that means one parent was, but that parent was almost definitely not a dutch shepherd. Their breeding is WAY too tightly controlled for that to be a possibility, or for her to have landed in a shelter. It just does not happen.


^^This^^

If I were you, Gingerman, I would just call her a Shepherd mix. Because that's most likely what she is. I doubt she is an even mix. Maybe a mix of a mix. A lot of those around.

TBH, the Dutch Shepherd Mix you posted from the shelter looks to be more of an Akita mix to me? Idk why exactly. Maybe Akita Shepherd thing. Dutch Shepherds breed willy nilly and they certainly don't end up in shelters.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

only the uneducated associate brindle with just pit bulls and mastiffs... pits come in many colors and brindle is in many reeds. its a very common color and could come from *anything*. we are saying pit because of her physical looks, not her color. hell for all we know the one parent was a solid colored pit other parent was a brindle mixed breed.

she also does not resemble that drawing imo.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Nope, if she was black I would still absolutely be saying gsd/pit mix.
> 
> I'm sorry you're not being validated here and we're not saying what you want to hear, but that dog *does not* look like a dutch shepherd. She looks like a 'something blocky X GSD'. Since she IS brindle that means one parent was, but that parent was almost definitely not a dutch shepherd. Their breeding is WAY too tightly controlled for that to be a possibility, or for her to have landed in a shelter. It just does not happen.


I agree. The fact is these dogs you keep saying look "exactly like her" do not look exactly like her. None of them look like your dog and you are missing the very obvious differences between these dogs and your dog. I am sorry that no one agrees with you but your dog is not a Dutch Shepherd. If you had posted a picture of your dog and she were black, brown, red, or really any other color I would still be saying shepherd x mastiff or pit bull. It is her coat, head shape and body type that make me say that not the brindle. I am not relying on her coat color for identification because realistically brindle comes from so many breeds it is unreliable for identification. You are the only one relying on coat color to make identification. Your 90lb, square headed, tight coated, blocky bodied dog is not a Dutch Shepherd. No one on the Dutch Shepherd board thought so and no one here thinks so. Perhaps there is a reason for that?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Chihuahuas can be brindle. Cardigan corgis can be brindle. Akitas can be brindle. Basenjis can be brindle. Greyhounds can be brindle. Great Danes can be brindle. Dachshunds can be brindle. Irish Wolfhounds can be brindle. And more. Anyone with decent knowledge of dog breeds (as most regulars here have) will not see brindle and jump straight to pit or mastiff. People are telling you your dog looks like a bully breed because your dog has bully breed characteristics. _You_ are the only one using coat color to point to a specific breed.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I've had the pleasure to see Dutch shepherds in the flesh, one quite recently. Very characteristic dogs. I just don't see DS in yours. Before reading the comments, I thought perhaps German shepherd mix, maybe with pit bull.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm not looking for validation. The reason I made this post is to share information. Avie didn't agree with me about what Ginger is and that is fine with me, but did provide information and at least understood why I would think Ginger is a Dutchy. Also If anyone who rescues a dog that seems to be a dutchy it can serve as fair warning that there seems to be an unwritten rule "Thou shalt not speculate thy rescue is a Dutchy", and a dog that may baffle everyone that meets them as far as their background suddenly becomes "obviously a something-mix" as soon as you mention the words Dutch Shepherd and people seem to crawl out of the woodwork to say so.
Sage and the drawing looked just like Ginger when I got her, puppies don't look exactly like grown dogs! I was an art and illustration major in college and everyone that sees that drawing assumes its one I did of her as a puppy (not noticing the lack of a white patch). If you watch the video of Ginger you can see there is nothing about the way she moves, walks, runs, and stands that is pitt like or mastiff like at all. She is perfectly proportioned for a Dutchy except for being heavier (she is still slightly overwheight) and a blockier head. I frankly love her short snout, I think it makes her extra cute. A short snout does not make it possible for me to ignore the far more obvious similarities in these dogs compared to differences. I have no idea how a breed could be "tightly controlled". Once a dog is sold its not like they are monitored 24/7. It's funny really, if I went out to buy a dutchy I very well might have gotten Ginger not caring about her "flaws". Since she seems to have all of the favorable capabilities, personality characteristics and intelligence of a dutchy, why would I be dissatisfied? BTW, the coat, blockier head and more muscular body are all characteristics of the "x-hollandse" type of dutchy, which I suppose some could argue aren't really dutch shepherds at all since they split off from their breeding decades ago and have mixed blood lines. If Ginger were to go through KNPV training and pass (I think she would have a good shot), she would be considered an X-hollandse automatically as far as I understand it. Why do you all care so much anyway? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yJprqI8DoA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVbLiy7Zu3E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy8Tndn7RLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Jc3I51GQA


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Why do YOU care so much? If you think she's a Dutch Shepherd, good for you. Why are you trying to get a bunch of people on the Internet to validate you?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

When I was younger, I had a dog from a shelter that looked much like a Belgian Tevuren. That's what we called her. Now I look back and laugh, because the probability of that is low, and meeting some in person was totally different. She was more likely a BC x Shepherd thing.

I think if you actually owned a purebred Dutchy, you'd be able to see the differences so plainly. I know one that's a drug dog, and yeah.. he is built quite a bit different than your dog. Similar colors? Sure. If you changed her colors to blue.. you'd think she was a cattle dog mix. Could it be possible she is Dutch Shepherd mix? Yeah. Is it likely? Nah. 

My guess would be Shepherdx X Pit as well.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

gingerman said:


> I'm not looking for validation. The reason I made this post is to share information.
> 
> *I'm sorry, but no. You're not an expert on the Dutch Shepherd, so the information being shared isn't accurate. *
> 
> ...


My responses in bold. 

You went to a Dutch Shepherd forum. You were told by several *breed experts* that your dog was *not* a DS. You came here, to an all-breed forum and were again told your dog was *not* a DS. In fact, you were told by someone who lives in the Netherlands - where Dutch Shepherds are quite common - that your dog is not a DS.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

You are looking for validation, you are looking for people to agree with you that those people on the Dutch Shepherd Forum were wrong. When you didn't find that you got upset and started arguing here. I actually found your thread on the Dutch Shepherd Forum, they weren't rude to you, you were argumentative and rude when you were told that Ginger was not a Dutch Shepherd (and you were also told "Sage" was not a Dutch Shepherd either). Ginger doesn't look like that much like "Sage" and "Sage" doesn't really resemble a Dutch Shepherd. It is not that everyone heard "I think my dog is a Dutch Shepherd" and we rushed to call her anything else, it is that your dog is clearly a pit/mastiff mix of some sort, probably a mix of a mix and you just can't see it because you are hung up on her brindle color. You just keep trying to invent ways for her to be this very rare dog, and trying to make yourself an expert on this breed. No one has agreed with you yet, why do you think that is?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I was curious, so I went and found your posts on the DS forum, too. No one there was rude to you. You insulted them, were sarcastic to them, and informed them that they were clueless about the breed they actually own and work with. Your thread got locked because of your attitude, and then you invaded threads where other people were asking about their dogs and turned the topic there to your dog again. I don't know why it means so much to you that a bunch of strangers on the Internet agree that your dog is a Dutch Shepherd, but it's not likely to happen, so what's the point of continuing to argue? We can't stop you from believing that your dog is a DS or telling Joe Random in the dog park that your dog is a DS, so who cares what we think?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I really don't care what you think, your dog looks like no dutch shepherd and that has been confirmed by many people. She's a mix, she isn't going to be exactly like the pit/mastiff side. And I can't see in the videos how she doesn't "move like a pit bull or mastiff" anyway... she moves like a normal dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

We still talking about this? 

The dog is not a Dutch shepherd. Never was and never will be. 

For some reason the OP is attempting to convince people it is a Dutchie. I really thinks he is trying to convince himself.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

How does the saying go, "Never say never"?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Still not a dutch shepherd.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Maybe it is about the other dog?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Those 2 dogs look nothing alike to me, personally.

People swear up and down my Aussie is a Border Collie or a Sheltie. It does not make her one.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It looks even less like a Dutch Shepherd to me now.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

http://www.dogforums.com/attachment...d1427095014t-what-dutch-shepherd-hpim1977.jpg

I'm not an expert, not by any stretch.

But I've never seen a Dutchie with a blaze, nor have I ever seen one that wide in the front.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Are you still doing this? Your dog still doesn't look like a DS. I don't know why you are so stuck on this. Your dog doesn't look or act like a DS.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Nope, still looks like a pit/GSD mix or something. Looks LESS Dutch Shepherd to me now than it did then, but I am impressed by your dedication.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Nope, still looks like a pit/GSD mix or something. Looks LESS Dutch Shepherd to me now than it did then, but I am impressed by your dedication.


I am more impressed by the delusion than the dedication. But both will turn that dog into a Dutchie, I supposed.

Gorgeous dog, btw.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> I am more impressed by the delusion than the dedication. But both will turn that dog into a Dutchie, I supposed.
> 
> Gorgeous dog, btw.


Well, yeah. Admittedly that too. Like I can't even figure out HOW you can know dogs and see that. It'd be like me trying to claim Kylie's a sheltie. I mean the color and size are kind of right but it stops there. And shelties aren't even rare. 

But agreed on the other too: that dog is beautiful.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Your dog is just as much a DS as this one is a plott hound/boxer (ps. He's a purebred, papered English Mastiff who multiple people have seen as that mix):


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh wait, I know. Better than Kylie example: This is my leonberger. He's... kind of the right color, kind of fluffy, and the right size!

(PS: He's a mutt.)

**ETA:** But seriously, OP's dogs head is COMPLETELY wrong for a dutch shepherd. So is it's coat and its build and everything else but whoa that head in particular.









Actual DS.


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

You have a gorgeous dog.

But your dog is not a Dutch Shepherd. 

Your dog is obviously a shepherd/pit/mastiff type mix. The head is a dead giveaway that it's not a dutchie. After watching some of your videos on youtube, I very clearly see pit/mastiff. She looks very athletic, but she has a blocky build. Dutchies have very tight bodies, they differ from your dog's build. 

But why does it matter what you call her? A dog's breed doesn't create their temperament, she is what she is and you love her. There's no reason to try to fit a square peg in a round hole and call her a dutchie.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

She is super pretty! I would guess some sort of blocky bully thing and GSD. Mutts are so weird though, you can get a bunch in a litter that have the same parents but look totally different. When you start getting multi gen crosses of mixed breeds all kinds of things can happen. Nothing wrong with that though, mutts are awesome!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I have an acquaintance with a known malinois/bully mix (I _think_ american bulldog but I can't remember right off the top of my head) that looks a LOT like your dog except he is the typical fawn/black mask color of a malinois. I would guess your dog is a shepherd/bully. 

I guess it's not impossible that Dutch shepherd could be in the mix but they really aren't commonly roaming the countryside making oops babies and SO many breeds can be brindle that it seems improbable.


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Eh, mutts can end up looking like anything. You could find a dog of the exact same mix and he/she might not look anything like her! I like that uniqueness.


This, exactly! That's one of the great things about mutts.


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

gingerman said:


> How does the saying go, "Never say never"?


Good-looking dogs. I can really see the mastiff the other posters are talking about in these photos. I've always loved brindle. Don't see Dutch shepherd. I'm far from an expert on any breed though.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Which dog indeed! what do you think about this dog?


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Sorry, if you think your dog is a Dutch Shepherd and she is not a known mix, you're pretty badly mistaken. I don't know what point you were trying to prove with the comparison - I've seen plenty of Dutch Shepherds (conformation bred, working bred, and from rescue/shelters), and I do not see it in your dog. 

Here's my Malinois, I get asked if she is a Dutch Shepherd more often than I get asked if she is a Malinois (online and in person). She has some Dutch Shepherd-esque features, so sometimes I'll mention that she may have Dutchie influence. But in her case it's very, very likely, as Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are often bred and labeled interchangeably and the brindle dogs are then labeled Dutch Shepherds, the nonbrindle dogs labeled Malinois. If you removed the brindle from your dog, you wouldn't think she's a Malinois (hopefully), and there are no other features that she shares with Dutch Shepherds (aside from having prick ears, a tail, and four legs).










Here is my Malinois next to my German Shepherd. It is much, much more likely that your dog is a Shepherd mix












sassafras said:


> I have an acquaintance with a known malinois/bully mix (I _think_ american bulldog but I can't remember right off the top of my head) that looks a LOT like your dog except he is the typical fawn/black mask color of a malinois. I would guess your dog is a shepherd/bully.


Yep, American Bulldog is what's in the mix 



gingerman said:


> View attachment 197978
> Which dog indeed! what do you think about this dog?


Could be pure Dutch Shepherd or Dutchie/Malinois, could also be a Dutch Shepherd mix, could also be a mix of completely unrelated breeds that also come in brindle. Looks more Dutchie than your dog does, but doesn't look definitively Dutchie enough for me to say for sure. Also hard to tell with just one picture of the dog sitting, would be considerably better to see the dog standing and from the side.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd, or at least the dog that people in Kansas refer to as a dutch shepherd, where working type/ K9 type duchies have been bred for decades I have found out. Whatever differences you may see in photos may just be regional differences, if you were to ever see ginger play with another dutch shepherd they are very obviously the same breed, and i think it exceedingly unlikely any random mix could "pass" for a dutch shepherd, they are kind of hard to miss. She was pretty overweight but is now close to her ideal, she has the tight waist she should.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

http://www.landofozk9.com/










LOL, No. Her headshape is still way, way, RADICALLY not dutch shepherd. Headshape isn't changed by weight, her waist has nothing to do with her shape being wrong, and it's far too wrong to be accounted for by 'regional differences'. She's not a DS. 

Do you really think you have a prayer in heck of getting us (or anyone) to tell you what you want to hear? It's... not going to happen. What are you trying to accomplish by repeatedly coming back to this?

Actually make that her head-shape, her neck and chest are WAY off and her shoulders, legs/angulation/proportions aren't right, either Ie: She looks NOTHING LIKE A DUTCH SHEPHERD in any way except having prick ears and being brindle.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

gingerman said:


> Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd, or at least the dog that people in Kansas refer to as a dutch shepherd, where working type/ K9 type duchies have been bred for decades I have found out. Whatever differences you may see in photos may just be regional differences, if you were to ever see ginger play with another dutch shepherd they are very obviously the same breed, and i think it exceedingly unlikely any random mix could "pass" for a dutch shepherd, they are kind of hard to miss. She was pretty overweight but is now close to her ideal, she has the tight waist she should.


I'm in Kansas. No, that is not a Dutch Shepherd. And trust me, I see plenty of brindle dogs come into work. I've also seen actual Dutch Shepherds come in. It is not a 'Kansas thing' Lol


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Why is it so important to you that your dog is a Dutchie?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Please keep in mind when you have a mix that sorta maybe looks like a breed, people will INSIST your dog is such and such breed. I get people going every which way with Hank. 

I agree, I still don't see dutch shepherd at all. Ear leather and shape, head shape, coat type, body type, head shape, etc just don't look very dutchie to me at all. I'm in a neighboring state if that makes any difference. I do see occasional dutchies here at all breed events and sometimes when I see the PP people training at a park.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I think I've been polite so far... but I'm about done. 

You really, really, *really* do NOT have a Dutch shepherd. And I know Hollandse herders. Dutch shepherds. I'm from Holland. 

You're free to believe what you want, but that doesn't make it truth. Even if other (clearly not knowledgeable) people agree with you. Sorry to rain on your parade.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> Please keep in mind when you have a mix that sorta maybe looks like a breed, people will INSIST your dog is such and such breed.


THIS. I have almost had to go home and pull Clyde's AKC papers out of his file just to convince some people he really, truly isn't a hound mix. Yes he follows his nose, but that doesn't make him a plott hound. Even of he somewhat resembles one from 1/4 mile away if you squint hard.

Lol, Maybe Clyde is 1/2 dutch shepherd 1/2 plott hound?


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

well i suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but its taken the several dutch shepherd owners that I've met, along with many police officers, veterinarians and dozens of strangers familiar with dutchies literally about 2 seconds to recognize ginger as a dutch shepherd. Of the thousands of people that have met ginger, not a single person has ever thought her NOT a DS, and no one has ever seen any pit, bully or mastiff in her either. She isn't even the huskiest or blockiest headed of these dogs, australian working dutchies expecially I've noticed as being very burly.


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

And we're back with the latest episode of "Nuh Uh, Yuh Huh".


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerman said:


> well i suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but its taken the several dutch shepherd owners that I've met, along with many police officers, veterinarians and dozens of strangers familiar with dutchies literally about 2 seconds to recognize ginger as a dutch shepherd. Of the thousands of people that have met ginger, not a single person has ever thought her NOT a DS, and no one has ever seen any pit, bully or mastiff in her either. She isn't even the huskiest or blockiest headed of these dogs, australian working dutchies expecially I've noticed as being very burly.


Seriously though, why does it matter so much? If you think your dog is a DS, then great, more power to you. Why does it matter that random people on the internet agree with you or not?

Random strangers have told me my dog is a number of things I know she's not, that doesn't stop them from telling me.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

The fact that you keep coming back implies that you are not finding as much support IRL as you insist you are. If dutch shepherd owners, police officers, vets, and "thousands of people" were really telling you your dog is a Dutch Shepherd why would you need a group of anonymous people on the internet to support you? For what it is worth I just spent time with REAL Dutch Shepherds this weekend, our local K9 unit imports DS for police work. I happened to be at an event supporting our local Animal Shelter and the K9 unit was giving a demo (they do every year) and my kids wanted to stop and ask questions so we did. There weren't a lot of people around so the boys were able to get close and monopolize a good bit of their time. Hate to break it to you but your dog looks nothing like those dogs.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

If this is your attitude, I'm starting to think it's no wonder the people at the Dutch shepherd forum weren't so nice to you. 

Look. If you made three clear pictures, one of the side and one of the front and one of the head. Then you take Dutch shepherd pics and compare. If you look at your dog objectively and be honest with yourself, you'll see the differences. 

I'll name a few obvious ones that really shouldn't need explaining. 
- hair length 
- ear shape 
- head shape 
Then there's the general shape of the body, the outline. It all just isn't right for a DS. 

All pictures belong to the Dutch breed club.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Well aren't you just precious.


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## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

gingerman said:


> Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd, or at least the dog that people in Kansas refer to as a dutch shepherd, .


You found one other person where you live to be convinced your mutt is a DS, and now you're validated?

DNA test it, and wait for the results to say "a little of everything"


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

This whole thread reminds me of someone I know who INSISTS her dog is a Frenchie, when it looks nothing like one. She gets horribly offended if anyone calls her dog anything else...but at least she isn't trying to convince a whole bunch of strangers via the internet of her dog's breed...for almost a year.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Dude. It's not a Dutch shepherd. That's okay.

Though I think you should get a purebred DS from a breeder for your next dog. Then maybe you'll realize that THIS dog is a handsome brindle mutt, AND you'll have a legitimate DS puppy.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

GoGoGypsy said:


> Though I think you should get a purebred DS from a breeder for your next dog. Then maybe you'll realize that THIS dog is a handsome brindle mutt, AND you'll have a legitimate DS puppy.


And probably appreciate the heck out of the gorgeous mutt for NOT being a DS, to boot!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

related: This month people have called that dog a shih-tzu, a pap, a sheltie, a pom and a *pug* of all things. Not mixes - those breeds.

And my vet is pretty convinced she's a purebred pap because vets != breed expert.

My theories about people telling you Ginger is a DS: You're as combative and fixated IRL and some people said 'uh huh, sure, maybe, whatever, dude' to make you go away - I do that in real life a lot. It's just easier than getting into fights with near strangers about what they claim their dog is. Smile and nod. 

You asked one other person - that person smiled and nodded and didn't know DS.

They're imaginary. 

Seriously, that dog is NOT a DS. No one with any working knowledge of the breed is going to believe that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly whatever people ask me Hank is I just agree with them. 

'Is that a heeler?'
'Yep, he's a heeler mix'

'Is that a rat terrier?'
'Yep, he's a rat terrier mix.'

'Is that a fox terrier?'
'Yep, he's a fox terrier mix.'

'Is that a jack Russell?'
'Yep he's a jack Russell mix.'

I just don't really know and get tired of arguing. People never accepted 'I don't know' as an answer.  when I said 'I don't know' people would list 1000 reasons why he WAS whatever breed they were telling me. I even had someone tell me he had JRT ears lmao.

I also smile and nod when people tell me all about their dogs. I met a guy last week with a 'foxhound'. The dog looked like a run of the mill GSD mix. Semi prick ears, double coat, black with traditional tan. The guy told me ALL about foxhounds and how his dog had such a good nose because it was a foxhound. I just don't have it in me to argue over someone's dog breed so I just nod and say 'Oh really?' or 'Neat' A lot of people will just be polite like that imo.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I just smile and nod a lot. Say whatever seems plausible, but I don't know her history and move on. Fortunately, people don't really try and argue. 

I am pretty sure the pug thing got so much 'wtf' on my face that it was clear I wasn't buying it, though.


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## Apricot (Nov 25, 2012)

We've had people argue adamantly that Zobby, our (known) pekingese mix, is a beagle, or a pug, or a Boston terrier. And a good looking example to boot!


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I just don't have it in me to argue over someone's dog breed so I just nod and say 'Oh really?' or 'Neat' A lot of people will just be polite like that imo.



This is me as well. If someone is really "certain" that their dog is a particular breed or is really wanting their dog to be a certain breed, I just go along with it. They see what they want to see. No sense trying to argue with them.

I bet this is what has happened with the OP. 

Edit: This is how I see the conversation going...

OP - doesn't my dog look like a DS?
Rando - well, the head is a bit off...
OP - but look at the ears! And she's brindle!
Rando (sensing that OP will not back down) - yeah, I guess she *could* be a DS.
OP - must log into DF!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

If the random person even knows what a Dutch shepherd is. 

Random person: What kind of dog is that? He's gorgeous!
OP: He's a dutch shepherd. They're similar to German shepherds but are brindle.
Random: Oh neat!


I could see that happening too. I bet I could convince people Hank was a rare breed. Brazilian terrier maybe? 

http://www.greatdogsite.com/photos/gallery/Brazilian_Terrier/?index=3

On a serious note to the OP: It really shouldn't matter what breeds your mutt is made of. If you like the dog, then you like the dog. You can call it whatever you want but I doubt many dog people will agree about the dutch shepherd. I understand wanting a definitive answer though. Sometimes not knowing what Hank is drives me nuts! But I am getting to where I realize it just doesn't matter. He's a Hank and Hank is cool. If some people are convinced he's a purebred standard rat terrier and others think he's a heeler x rat terrier and someone else thinks he's a JRT... it's not going to change what Hank is like as a dog. It's not that big of a deal.


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## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

This thread reminds me of how I was convinced we had a Mioritic Sheepdog. You know, because there were so many Mioritic Sheepdogs being abandoned in Texas.

Difference was, I was 10 years old. OP doesn't have an excuse.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> If the random person even knows what a Dutch shepherd is.
> 
> Random person: What kind of dog is that? He's gorgeous!
> OP: He's a dutch shepherd. They're similar to German shepherds but are brindle.
> ...


Very true. I'm sure a lot of non-dog people would just smile and agree because they don't really know. I certainly am not an expert on a lot of dog breeds out there, so if someone told me that their dog was a rare breed that I wasn't familar with, "oh, neat" would most likely be my response.

And I agree that it shouldn't really matter what the breed is. You guys love each other and mix well together, whatever breed she is, and that's what matters. I also know what it's like to want to know the breed of your dog, but at some point you just gotta accept that you will never *really* know. You may have your suspicions. You may have a dna test done. You may have a bunch of people agree or disagree with you. But in the end you never really know and you just have to look at the dog for who she is as an individual and work with that.

Edit: Laurelin, you should totally tell people that Hank is a Brazilian Terrier. I'd bet that 9/10 people would agree with you...and then, because people agree, Hank would, of course, officially be a Brazilian Terrier


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Paviche said:


> This thread reminds me of how I was convinced we had a Mioritic Sheepdog. You know, because there were so many Mioritic Sheepdogs being abandoned in Texas.
> 
> Difference was, I was 10 years old. OP doesn't have an excuse.


Hehehehe this reminds at work the other day, temp eval for a tricolor smooth collie/herder mutt thingy and the owner said "yeah, I've looked up breeds and we really think he is mostly Karelian bear dog."

Sometimes (most of the time!) I love my job and that was one of the times. I totally get it, had mutts growing up and just wanted to CATEGORIZE them.

OP you should do a DNA test


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

For awhile my husband and I were calling Pip a "Georgia black and tan" (the rare black and white color variant), but so many people so eagerly believed us and thought it was super cool that we started to feel a little bad about it.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

there is a lady who goes to the dog park here who believes her cream wirehaired mutt is a purebred estonian hound. thagtdoesn't make it true.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

So, it is obvious to you there are absolutely no similarities to these two dogs beyond being dogs, and anyone that would suggest such a thing is delusional and ignorant:



Would you agree or disagree with that statement?


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

And these two dogs obviously have RADICALLY different shapes to their heads, anyone suggesting any similarities would be QUITE BADLY MISTAKEN!

is that a true statement?


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

gingerman said:


> So, it is obvious to you there are absolutely no similarities to these two dogs beyond being dogs, and anyone that would suggest such a thing is delusional and ignorant:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you agree or disagree with that statement?


There are similarities:
Both are large, fawn-brindle prick-eared dogs with a black mask and a moderate build... Hardly specific enough evidence to suggest they are the same breed.

To suggest they are the same breed IS ignorant. When I first saw this thread, my first thought was "Cool, ok." Because I had no idea what the heck a DS was to begin with. Honest, innocent ignorance.

To hold an unshakeable dogma that both are the same breed; flying in the face of breeders of DS, those who have lived entire lives around DS, and those involved in conformation events where DS frequent is delusional.

Edit; As for the head... The stop is too pronounced, a little too much jowl, muzzle is too thick, ear shape is WAY off, ear leather is very thin, nose and front lips are closer to a right angle... Very mastiffy head.

Edit again: Very handsome German Shepherd/ American Staffy mix with a head kinda like Ginger's


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Your dog is a bloody GSD mix. Accept it and move on, because Lord knows the rest of us are sick of you trying to justify your dog being something it's not in order to satisfy your ego.

People thought Loch was a wolf mix because he was sable. Doesn't make it true. Makes them ignorant at best and idiots at worst.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

gingerman said:


> And these two dogs obviously have RADICALLY different shapes to their heads, anyone suggesting any similarities would be QUITE BADLY MISTAKEN!
> 
> is that a true statement?


they're pretty different.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I've had (several!) people tell me what a beautiful black GSD they think my Newfoundland is. People are really not good at breed identification.

We've also gotten poodle, great pyr, st bernard, rottie, pit bull, and bear-hybrid. 

You have a lovely dog! Chill out about whatever breed or breed mix she is and enjoy your dog...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

They actually do have quite different head shapes. Your dog's skull is broader, muzzle proportionally shorter and broader, and ears proportionally smaller. 

So yes, you are quite badly mistaken. I'm not sure why it's so important to you that we think your dog is a Dutchie, but I really don't think she is.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

One of my friends has a black retrievery type dog with long hair. She is convinced he is a Flat Coat. But the similarity between the dog and a Flat Coat ends there. The head shape (flat coats have very distinct heads), ears, coat type, etc are very off. Plus Flat Coats are rare and you can get a black longhaired retrievery dog from crossing a lab and a golden or a lab/golden and some other stuff. 

I think some of this is just hard for non dog people to see the difference? I don't know. To me your dog looks quite different than a dutchie other than the fact that they're both prick eared, sorta shepherdy, and brindle. The head shape is really different, ears different, coat different, proportions, bone, etc. Your dog definitely has some shepherd group characteristics but there's clearly something else in there in my opinion.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I like telling people Luna is a teacup Cane Corso to see how they react.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

I don't get it. Why is it so important. I adopted two "catahoula" mixes and love to hear people's suggestions about what breeds they are. They were both labelled catahoulas at the shelter and have some resemblance but I couldn't care less what they are. Just because Jewel is merle, has a blue eye, and resembles a catahoula doesn't make her a one. She could be a mix of anything merle.

People on here know dogs well and the consensus is that you have a gorgeous mutt. So just accept it and stop trying to convince us that it's a DS.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I like telling people Luna is a teacup Cane Corso to see how they react.


I've just been calling Jazz a boxer mix and Jewel a herder lol. Makes it easier. Or I just call them mutts.

I also like to tell people that one of my criteria is that they their left eye is blue.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

d_ray said:


> I've just been calling Jazz a boxer mix and Jewel a herder lol. Makes it easier. Or I just call them mutts.
> 
> I also like to tell people that one of my criteria is that they their left eye is blue.


When people are actually asking I tell them she was a rescue/from the SPCA so I don't really know. Usually they'll try and suggest something she is (3/3 trainers have suggested Sharpei, even though based on the area she's from that's basically impossible), and sometimes people will try and like... make me agree that she is something? It's interesting to hear the things people suggest, because she doesn't look a lot like a particular thing, like how you would have a shepherd mix or a collie mix, etc.

"Oh jeeze, gotta be some xyz in there, eh?" 
"Yea maybe, who knows!" 
"Oh there's gotta be! I knew a dog that was xyz that looked like her!" 
"Mmmkay buddy."


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Your dog is *NOT* a Dutch Shepherd. End of. Deal with it.

Complaining, and constantly asking if your dog IS a Dutch Shepherd, will not change anything. At all. So, just come realization that your dog isn't a Dutch Shepherd,and move on.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

I think you are missing my point. I am a creature of logic and science, and in scientific thinking one has a hypothesis and then they try to DISPROVE it, what is left after everything disprovable is what I go on. I've actually kept an open mind if ginger is or is not a DS. If you say she isn't then who am I to argue with someone from holland? However if she is not, that means:

The people I've met, including police, that think they have dutch shepherds but also think ginger is the same breed ALSO don't have dutch shepherds. I think this is a possibility, do you think it might be possible there are brindled police dogs in kansas that are called dutch shepherds that are not? 

or 

Everyone in kansas is stupid and delusional. Is that what you think? 

those are beautiful dutchies! They all remind me of ginger though, certainly more than any pitt or mastiff I've seen.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think that most people -- even very smart people -- are not very good at breed identification.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

gingerman said:


> I think you are missing my point. I am a creature of logic and science, and in scientific thinking one has a hypothesis and then they try to DISPROVE it, what is left after everything disprovable is what I go on. I've actually kept an open mind if ginger is or is not a DS. If you say she isn't then who am I to argue with someone from holland? However if she is not, that means:
> 
> The people I've met, including police, that think they have dutch shepherds but also think ginger is the same breed ALSO don't have dutch shepherds. I think this is a possibility, do you think it might be possible there are brindled police dogs in kansas that are called dutch shepherds that are not?
> 
> ...


Doesn't have to be that black and white! They could have dutchies and just be mistaken about your dog. And honestly in Kansas you are so much more likely to see a pitxgerman shepherd than a Dutch shepherd. Her coat is really tight and reminds me of my pit mixes coat. Those Dutchies don't have super long coats but you can see the difference in the thickness.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

For someone who values logic you've certainly set up a false dichotomy there.

It's perfectly possible that police officers have Dutchies AND have misidentified your dog as a Dutchie. The most common guesses I get for my mixed breed dogs' mixes are... whatever breed the guesser happens to have. Particularly Pip. Aussie people think Pip has Aussie in him, spaniel people think he has spaniel, setter people think he has setter.


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## notgaga (Oct 25, 2014)

But... weren't you kicked off a Dutch Shepherd forum AFTER a bunch of (known) Dutch Shepherd owners and probable experts said you don't have one? Even though you nagged them enough to be banned for trolling? 

I'm sure she doesn't care that she's not a Dutch Shepherd. You don't need to white knight for her; she's amazing the way she is - a mix. It's OK that she is a mix of something not Dutch Shepherd. Mixes are not second class canines. They're dogs, just the same. I have a mix, and I would probably fight anyone who says she's less important or special than any champion that ever existed. Because she is a living being, and I happen to love her ardently. Or, you know, I would just walk away from them because all that matters to me is my dog is happy and healthy.

Are you just gonna keep looking for people to agree with you? Clearly the people who already have aren't enough. How many do you need for validation? Is that why you keep coming back here, hoping the answer will change? And what will you do after you finally feel sufficiently validated?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Police generally are no better at identifying dog breeds than the average public. Breed enthusiasts and breeders are your best bet. Like.. the ones on the forums that declared your dog not a Dutchie. 

Seriously.. picture your dog any other color than brindle. Give it a black saddle and it becomes almost a GSD.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> For someone who values logic you've certainly set up a false dichotomy there.
> 
> It's perfectly possible that police officers have Dutchies AND have misidentified your dog as a Dutchie. The most common guesses I get for my mixed breed dogs' mixes are... whatever breed the guesser happens to have. Particularly Pip. Aussie people think Pip has Aussie in him, spaniel people think he has spaniel, setter people think he has setter.


Me too.

Heeler people: That is DEFINITELY a heeler mix

Rat terrier people: He is totally a rat terrier.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

So according to your logic, the number of people who agree with you is enough to make a dog a certain breed.

Not it's pedigree, not experts on the breed, not those who breed the animals in question.

Nope, the opinions of 50 who have probably seen less than 5 dutchies in thier whole lives have a weightier opinion.

Also, it's kind of hard to execute the scientific method, a measure of objective truths, when you're dealing with something as suggestive as the idea of a dog breed. A VERY suggestive idea that hinges on the opinions of the breed club in the end, and only the breed club. Not Josh from the next town over. Not Karen the K9 officer. Not Gary from next door.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerman said:


> Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd, or at least the dog that people in Kansas refer to as a dutch shepherd, where working type/ K9 type duchies have been bred for decades I have found out. Whatever differences you may see in photos may just be regional differences, if you were to ever see ginger play with another dutch shepherd they are very obviously the same breed, and i think it exceedingly unlikely any random mix could "pass" for a dutch shepherd, they are kind of hard to miss. She was pretty overweight but is now close to her ideal, she has the tight waist she should.


I was not coming back to this thread..... 

But........ I do not know how to tell you this in a more effective way than anyone else.......


Your dog is NOT a Dutch Shepherd. I said and explained why I two posts on page one... Now ten months later you are trying to convince folks that your pretty mixed breed dog is a Dutch Shepherd. 

Get over it or don't.......

To be perfectly honest...... I doubt you could handle a Dutch Shepherd. The majority of them around are bred for work or dog sports......

Even if you think you could handle one.... Getting a breeder ( a decent breeder at least and they are not common enough for a bunch of neophytes to be playing in the breed) to actually sell you one..... Is going to be a cute trick....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> Me too.
> 
> Heeler people: That is DEFINITELY a heeler mix
> 
> Rat terrier people: He is totally a rat terrier.


Oh and the fun one is at the lure coursing, at petsmart, and at agility I've had all the basenji people tell me Hank is part basenji.

Um... yeah... no. 

People often see their breed first.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Oh and the fun one is at the lure coursing, at petsmart, and at agility I've had all the basenji people tell me Hank is part basenji.
> 
> Um... yeah... no.
> 
> People often see their breed first.


LOL I said both....


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

gingerman said:


> I think you are missing my point. I am a creature of logic and science


Then why are you trying to establish dog breed by arguing with people on the internet, rather than just getting a DNA test?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Oh and the fun one is at the lure coursing, at petsmart, and at agility I've had all the basenji people tell me Hank is part basenji.
> 
> Um... yeah... no.
> 
> People often see their breed first.


I'm totally convinced that Hank has some Newfoundland in him. Yep. Definitely some Newf in there!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I've had a bunch of people tell me Kuma is for sure a Pit Bull, so clearly I've been wrong all this time thinking he was a Pug! Or maybe he's a French Bulldog, people have called him that too. What do you guys think, is he a Pit Bull or a Frenchie?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I've had a bunch of people tell me Kuma is for sure a Pit Bull, so clearly I've been wrong all this time thinking he was a Pug! Or maybe he's a French Bulldog, people have called him that too. What do you guys think, is he a Pit Bull or a Frenchie?


All those people were wrong. He's an American Bulldog. I know because -even though I'm not knowledgeable on American Bulldogs at all- he is fawn with a black mask and smooshed face and I have seen American Bulldogs that look exactly like him!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

When walking my whippets at a hotel a couple of weeks ago, a guy stopped me to tell me how nice my salukis were. I explained that they were whippets, and got corrected immediately. "Definitely, those are salukis, and they are incredible sled dogs. I raced them in Alaska for years." Uh, yeah. But a nice guy.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Avie said:


> All those people were wrong. He's an American Bulldog. I know because -even though I'm not knowledgeable on American Bulldogs at all- he is fawn with a black mask and smooshed face and I have seen American Bulldogs that look exactly like him!


That's possible, but I think I found it! He's a Ca de Bou! I mean, they're super rare, and I've never seen one here before, but I think he looks JUST like one, so that must be it! Look!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> That's possible, but I think I found it! He's a Ca de Bou! I mean, they're super rare, and I've never seen one here before, but I think he looks JUST like one, so that must be it! Look!


No way! Kuma's spitting image! Yeah, I am pretty sure you're right! So cool, you're the only one I know with a Ca de Bou!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Avie said:


> No way! Kuma's spitting image! Yeah, I am pretty sure you're right! So cool, you're the only one I know with a Ca de Bou!


I know, right? It's so cool, they're so super rare, I feel so extra special now!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I know, right? It's so cool, they're so super rare, I feel so extra special now!


You should totally show him off on online dog forums! You've got a rare breed, most people have never even seen one, so maybe you could educate them


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Avie said:


> You should totally show him off on online dog forums! You've got a rare breed, most people have never even seen one, so maybe you could educate them


Exactly!! I'm starting here, but I'll be posting in all the forums soon!


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Avie said:


> No way! Kuma's spitting image! Yeah, I am pretty sure you're right! So cool, you're the only one I know with a Ca de Bou!


I just actually snorted sweet tea up my nose from laughing at this. Thanks guys.

Also grey would like to remind everyone that she is SOME Pomeranian, but mostly gray wolf.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Rescued said:


> I just actually snorted sweet tea up my nose from laughing at this. Thanks guys.
> 
> Also grey would like to remind everyone that she is SOME Pomeranian, but mostly gray wolf.


No way, you're the ONLY person I know with a miniature wolf! You are so lucky!!


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Kuma'sMom said:


> No way, you're the ONLY person I know with a miniature wolf! You are so lucky!!


I had atleast five people asked me if Watson was a wolf mix when he was tiny. 

Ladies and gents, my baby wolf mix.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I am so jealous of all of these rare breed dogs. I apparently only own akitas. 


medium akita


large akita


Fancy akita?


Bully Akita


Kitty Akita?

Ok so two of those have never been called Akita, can you guess which?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Hrrmmmm... Kitty Akita and Fancy Akita? Sadly I can see some un-dog-ucated people saying your Bully looks like an Akita


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

This is my Rottweiler puppy;


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Hrrmmmm... Kitty Akita and Fancy Akita? Sadly I can see some un-dog-ucated people saying your Bully looks like an Akita


Yes the cat and the tiny dog have never been called Akita, the others all have. Magic is sort of a weird mix and she looks like different things to different people. She is probably mostly bully and herder (our guess is cattle dog or kelpie with some sort of bully breed like pit bull and maybe boston mixed in) but she may have a little of anything else too. However Akita is highly unlikely. I've heard Akita more than a couple of times and I don't know why. Akita just seems to be the go to guess for my dogs. 


One of the sports people that met her described her as "a herder that ran into a wall" LOL


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

If I listened to the general public then Nubs is a Boxer:










And Peanut is a Lab:









Simply put, the average person has no clue what breed most dogs are. You are on a forum of people who know their breeds and so far no one has agreed with you on your dogs breed. That should be something you should think about.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Well, they look friendly and cute, so obviously they can't be pits. lol


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

My Cassius is routinely identified as a Scottish Terrier, as in, "Whoa, I didn't know Scottish Terriers could be that big!"


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Ok answer this

What breed/breeds is this?










What about this? 










And This?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Ok answer this
> 
> What breed/breeds is this?
> 
> ...


Middle is a hovawart I think. Gonna go ahead and guess toller for the first. Third idk. Face is too broad for a flat coat


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Trap, trap, and trick question?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

All three of them are pit bulls.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Trap, trap, and trick question?


Now why would you think that? :bounce:


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

parus said:


> All three of them are pit bulls.


Well they do click the broad head box, and pitties do come in those colors. I guess they could be pitties to some.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I going with all three are Hovawart.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I going with all three are Hovawart.


Dam, lol.

You figured it out. Yes they are indeed all Hovawarts. :biggrin1:

All three colors side by side


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## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

Your picture proves nothing. All 3 are Dutch Shepherds.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh and meet my Great Dane










And my Greyhound


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Beta Man said:


> Your picture proves nothing. All 3 are Dutch Shepherds.


In TX they are all Akitas, that is how it works right? That is what I have learned on this thread so far. If enough people tell you your dog is something it is and dogs are different breeds in different states.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

I apologize for offending you avie, that was not my intent. I'm just curious, Ginger's coat is about 2cm, how long of coat exactly is a short haired x herder supposed to have? I can tell you her ear, body and head shape were like the other dutch shepherds I've met, but I think her crazy brindle patter creates an illusion of a different head shape that just looks much different in two dimensions. Ginger was within 2 cm of every dimension of them, and the coat was the same length, that's why I wondered if maybe KNPV dutchies locally were maybe alot different. I just wish I could capture her the way she looks in her presence! I would like to show off my rare breed on the dog forums too, but on here I see she will forever be just a common mix. Actually really I'm just so fascinated with her, her abilities she shows at abstract thinking are just astounding, although she is a total goofball. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSOQFkvUSBM&feature=youtu.be


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ok, you win. She's a Dutch shepherd. :|


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

gingerman said:


> I would like to show off my rare breed on the dog forums too, but on here I see she will forever be just a common mix.


 Time spent arguing whether she is or isn't, however small and insignificant as that time may be, is still time wasted. Does your dog know or even care what breed she is? Seriously. If having an indisputable purebred DS is your life's ambition, fine. Save your nickels, start doing some research and then go out and buy one. 

But please, for the immediate future .. just ... stick a pin in your ego, stop the pointless bickering, and in it's place go do *something productive* with whatever breed of dog you have. Twelve years from now you'll be glad you did.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

parus said:


> My Cassius is routinely identified as a Scottish Terrier, as in, "Whoa, I didn't know Scottish Terriers could be that big!"


Don't tell me where you live I swear I will steal this dog from you. He's ADORABLE! Giant Schnauzer?! (guessing)


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

gingerman said:


> I apologize for offending you avie, that was not my intent. I'm just curious, Ginger's coat is about 2cm, how long of coat exactly is a short haired x herder supposed to have? I can tell you her ear, body and head shape were like the other dutch shepherds I've met, but I think her crazy brindle patter creates an illusion of a different head shape that just looks much different in two dimensions. Ginger was within 2 cm of every dimension of them, and the coat was the same length, that's why I wondered if maybe KNPV dutchies locally were maybe alot different. I just wish I could capture her the way she looks in her presence! I would like to show off my rare breed on the dog forums too, but on here I see she will forever be just a common mix. Actually really I'm just so fascinated with her, her abilities she shows at abstract thinking are just astounding, although she is a total goofball.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSOQFkvUSBM&feature=youtu.be


She is a GODDESS who walks the earth. Her very existence is a marvel to us lesser folk with lesser dogs. 

Seriously, dude. I'll meet you on the rare-breed forums with my Dwarf wolf-dog. 


No one gives a flying frak if you have a rare breed. A dog is a dog is a dog. Like I said, the only people who will be impressed are idiots, and who cares about the opinions of idiots?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

chimunga said:


> She is a GODDESS who walks the earth. Her very existence is a marvel to us lesser folk with lesser dogs.
> 
> Seriously, dude. I'll meet you on the rare-breed forums with my Dwarf wolf-dog.
> 
> ...


When in rome..?


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

missc89 said:


> When in rome..?


Yep. You can bring your rare black agile long-tailed Cat-Dog, and we can have a party.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

chimunga said:


> Yep. You can bring your rare black agile long-tailed Cat-Dog, and we can have a party.


Pfft. She's a shipperkat!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Don't tell me where you live I swear I will steal this dog from you. He's ADORABLE! Giant Schnauzer?! (guessing)


Hee. Alaska, so we're probably safe. His mom was a Giant Schnauzer, yes, according to the vet records he came with. I don't think he's purebred, though. Too big and spotty. I adopted him as an adult.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

parus said:


> Hee. Alaska, so we're probably safe. His mom was a Giant Schnauzer, yes, according to the vet records he came with. I don't think he's purebred, though. Too big and spotty. I adopted him as an adult.


He's absolutely gorgeous!! I love big dogs and the giant schanuzer has a special place in my heart..


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

chimunga said:


> She is a GODDESS who walks the earth. Her very existence is a marvel to us lesser folk with lesser dogs.
> 
> Seriously, dude. I'll meet you on the rare-breed forums with my Dwarf wolf-dog.
> 
> ...




Grey wants to know if he's a teacup high content like her. She said to ask if he's rare as well


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Grey wants to know if he's a teacup high content like her. She said to ask if he's rare as well


Grey is absolutely one of a kind!


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## jolie (May 1, 2015)

Hi. I'm just a lurker on this here community but, OP, I recognized your dog immediately because I remember the thread on the Dutch Shepherd Forum from way back when.

I was going to move on, since we both know well enough that you've dug your heels in, I've been debating not posting this at all, but I can't deny that it's starting to grind on me how adamantly you're presenting your dog as a Dutch Shepherd. Though I will admit I'm actually kind of impressed that you're still chugging along with this delusion all these months later. Dedication.

I was owned by a Dutch Shepherd. Her name is Jolene/Jolie and she is inundated with KNVP lines. There's Maligator in there somewhere, I know it. Her teeth are suspiciously sharp and she liked to go underwater and chomp on your legs. But that's neither here nor there. Your girl – though a lovely specimen! – is nothing if not a glorified mutt. I'm sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, but other people's input obviously hasn't left much in the way of an impression so, here I am.

Everyone else has repeatedly pointed out the disqualifying differences in physique and looks so I won't go into it because I know it'd be an exercise in futility. Which, you know, it's your prerogative to ignore the cold hard facts, no skin off my back. But I'm not going to agree that it is fine and dandy to go around telling everyone and their mother that what you have is a Dutch Shepherd. I'll tell you why.

Beeecauuuuuuse.. misrepresentation, that's why. And it tends to be a pearl-clutching event when you're knowingly misidentifying high energy, sensitive, insane but lovable nutjobs like Mals and Dutchies. It's amazing the damage that can be done when you dive into that breed variety unaware that you're investing in what is essentially a German Shepherd on quality crack cocaine. 

People who are incompatible with the breed are going to start coming around to thinking this breed is for them because your mix looks a tiny bit similar when you squint and she happens to be easygoing or calm or whatever. It's false advertising, basically. These people often end up with dogs who have unchecked stimulus thresholds, weak nerves, and drive leakage out the wazoo that isn't getting the appropriate amount of attention from people who aren't equipped to handle the dog they have because they had no clue what they were getting themselves into. And all because they had an interaction with one dog who wasn't even the breed they got their hands on. 

It's like someone asking to taste your blueberry icecream and then inquiring about what it is because they want the same thing. You tell them it's blackberry, they go and get blackberry icecream... and it's omg AWFUL. They end up leaving their cone half-finished.. melting.. oozing.. tearing up your couch cushions while you have a garage sale...

Look. I know you're holding onto this conviction because they're a "rare" and "exotic" looking breed. I get it, it feels nice when people turn their heads and go on and on about how cool your dog is, and I guess some people feel like it gives them status. But, despite what you want desperately to believe, no matter how hard you try to cram her into this mold she doesn't fit in, like I and everyone else is telling you.. Ginger is not a dutch shepherd. 

Go ahead and keep posting photos of her compared to legit Dutchies while saying "ok whatever, but what about NOW?" but… it's not going to change the outcome. You're lying to yourself and you're lying to other people which is worse. I couldn't tell you what kind of mix she is without doubt shading my opinion – hell, I can't even speculate with an honest eye because there is such a diverse pool of COMMON breeds that could pop out a twin to yours. I can think of dozens of possible matches right off the bat because _so_ many breeds come in brindle. It's not really a trait specific to DS and breeders aren't hoarding some secret recipe from everyone else.

And honestly, I could take my mom's creaky old chocolate lab and spin him as the rare and awe-inspiring Willy Wonka Retriever. Come one, come all, behold this magnificent beast! And I'm sure there would be spectators gathering around squinting with an air of vague familiarity.. "Oh yeah, sure, I think I've heard of them. Yeah, that's totally a Willy Wonka Retriever! Hey guys, look at this chick's Willy Wonka retriever! I saw one in the distance this one time. Was it in Alaska? Huh. I think it was a moose. No, wait, yeah. It was definitely a moose. GUYS! This chick's dog has _moose_ in his bloodline!" 

There are a lot of people who can't discern characteristics distinctive to any one breed, and I'm even less inclined to believe that you're receiving thousands or even dozens of confirmations from the public that you were right all along about this one very specific, very uncommon dog breed. If there are ~thousands~ of people in kansas telling you with no uncertainty that she is a Dutch shepherd, I want to know what's in the water on your inch of the country. Maybe forage through your woods for some.. edible… plants...

Jokes aside, what anyone thinks ultimately doesn't change the fact that my mom's dog is just an ordinary, creaky old chocolate lab. And there's nothing wrong with that. Zip. Zilch. Nada. It's perfectly great, he's a great dog and people give him LOTS of attention. Not because he's a Willy Wonka Retriever, but because he's an outgoing dog who loves everyone he meets. Awesomely, fantastically ordinary. I don't know what's so bad about that.

But hey, if you do your research and find that DS are a match for what you want in a dog, go for it. But don't do it for the wrong reasons. They are splendid dogs for the right person. And for that person, it's all over. They're hooked on that crack cocaine forever and for always. They'll try to make you go to rehab but you'll say no... no.. noo..... 

Anyway, sorry for the lengthiness and even sorrier if it's cluttered, I am dead tired.

And because you asked "what is a dutch shepherd", _here_ is a dutch shepherd. I have adult pics of her but they're on a dead computer so I don't have access, unfortunately. She's a detection dog these days, I had to let her go years ago and not a day goes by where I don't miss those stabby radar ears.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Great reply Jolie. 

Gingerman: Apology accepted, but only if you stop this nonsense about your dog being a Dutch shepherd, because she's not. That doesn't mean she's a 'lesser' dog; there's nothing wrong with an undefinable mutt and to be honest, she sounds like an amazing dog. I hope you have many happy years left together. But stop misrepresenting her. She's lovely the way she is, you don't need to put a false stamp on her.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> LOL I said both....


I say both too if I have to guess. It is the most common guess. 

But I'll never really know for sure! Oh well. Beauty of the shelter mutts!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I say both too if I have to guess. It is the most common guess.
> 
> But I'll never really know for sure! Oh well. Beauty of the shelter mutts!


LoL no we will actually never know for sure...... But I showed you one that we do know for sure that could be hanks brother.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

gingerman said:


> Very interesting, thank you for the information! Of course I could be wrong about Ginger and she is just a random mix, I just can't shake the feeling she is somehow related to the KNPV type DS working dog. Much of this is in factors other than appearance. She is a very robust and intrepid dog, and really craves a challenge. At least BELIEVING she is one of these dogs, mistaken or not, has served me well. I've tried to keep her active and challenged, even if her "job" is to be a family pet. She has been a big help with landscaping! she has dug holes for paving stones, moved big piles of sticks, and ripped volunteers out from the ground, and she just LOVES to help


I have a dog that craves challenge too and loves to bite ... but he is a mini american shepherd and I assure you he has NO dutch shepherd 

Just because a dog likes to bite, doesnt mean they have dutchie in them.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know but I think I found a sibling of your dog. This dog looks like your dog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl38Lm06234


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

According to the public, these are my 5 Aussies. Hint..exactly 1 of those 5 dogs is an Aussie. interestingly, until I added the Aussie to the pack, Gem was the only one sometimes called an Aussie, but for the most part they were what they actually are lol. 

Sometimes when people call them all Aussies I just nod and agree, easier. So yup, sure your dog is as much a Dutchie as my Heeler x's and my Pedigree'd Border Collie and Toller are Aussies


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## Kei San (Apr 14, 2013)

Miss Bugs said:


> View attachment 201001
> 
> 
> According to the public, these are my 5 Aussies. Hint..exactly 1 of those 5 dogs is an Aussie. interestingly, until I added the Aussie to the pack, Gem was the only one sometimes called an Aussie, but for the most part they were what they actually are lol.
> ...


You have a gorgeous pack! How old is your Toller? So your Toller hasn't been called a mini Golden Retriever yet? You almost have my dream pack, I'm a bit jealous. Just missing a working line GSD and Siberian Husky.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Kei San said:


> You have a gorgeous pack! How old is your Toller? So your Toller hasn't been called a mini Golden Retriever yet? You almost have my dream pack, I'm a bit jealous. Just missing a working line GSD and Siberian Husky.


Thank you  my Toller is 6 months. I doubt she will ever get called a mini golden lol, she's REALLY small, like super small for even a Toller(I call her Tiny Toller) and she apparently looks like a mature dog to boot(she has more coat at 6 months then her mom has fully mature and she gets called an "old soul") so I mostly get people asking what she is rather then trying to guess


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

I didn't read all of the pages, but I bet if your dog was ANY other color, this thread would have never happened.


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## Kei San (Apr 14, 2013)

Miss Bugs said:


> Thank you  my Toller is 6 months. I doubt she will ever get called a mini golden lol, she's REALLY small, like super small for even a Toller(I call her Tiny Toller) and she apparently looks like a mature dog to boot(she has more coat at 6 months then her mom has fully mature and she gets called an "old soul") so I mostly get people asking what she is rather then trying to guess


I should have just read your signature for her age. Sometimes I get a little too excited when I see people with breeds I love. XD Do you think she is done growing? Do you know off hand how tall she is (That's too cute)? What about her father's coat? Do you think she could have got it from him?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Kei San said:


> I should have just read your signature for her age. Sometimes I get a little too excited when I see people with breeds I love. XD Do you think she is done growing? Do you know off hand how tall she is (That's too cute)? What about her father's coat? Do you think she could have got it from him?


Haha I need to update my signature! She has her dads coat, yes. Her sires coat is so thick that her breeder shaves him in the summer because of how long he takes to dry every time he swims. In every other aspect of her appearance though she is her mother. She is just on the nose of 15" at the shoulder and weighs 18lbs. Not done growing sure, but I can't see her being any more then 16.5" and likely closer to 16" and will likely be under 24lbs. For comparison her mom is 37lbs and her dad is 46lbs.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> I didn't read all of the pages, but I bet if your dog was ANY other color, this thread would have never happened.


if the dog was black and white she'd be a karelian bear dog... if she was solid red she'd be a carolina dog... solid black and she'd be a working line GSD... black and tan and she'd be a kelpie... merle and she'd be a koolie...


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Kayota said:


> if the dog was black and white she'd be a karelian bear dog... if she was solid red she'd be a carolina dog... solid black and she'd be a working line GSD... black and tan and she'd be a kelpie... merle and she'd be a koolie...


Pretty much. :laugh:


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

WELL... We shall see.... I’ve finally ordered a DNA test for Ginger! She is doing well...


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Pretty much. :laugh:


well sure... if she wasn’t brindled, she wouldn't be a dutch shepherd!! She IS huge... 103 pounds now... but there is absolutely nothing non-shepherd about Ginger...in build she is identical to large white GSD she has played with...has anyone noticed how much some white GSDs differ in build?!?More muscular and without the sloping hips...also similar to large Belgian Shepherds and Mal’s we’ve encountered....


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Avie said:


> Seeing Dutch shepherds walk around regularly, I'll say your dog doesn't strike me as a Dutch shepherd.
> 
> The kruising Hollandse herders you speak of are also referred to KNPV Dutch shepherds. They are an actual thing, you're right about that, it's not a myth.  These dogs are not recognized as official Dutch shepherds and don't have FCI pedigrees, but KNPV dogs do have known lineages and their own pedigrees, though I do not know the specifics there. The dog will be written down as a 'Hollandse herder X' or 'Mechelse herder X' or 'Duitse herder X' to show it's not an actual Dutch shepherd or Malinois or GSD, but looks like one and is from KNPV lines, so has those dogs in its pedigree. These KNPV bred dogs are intense dogs with lots of character, bred for sport and work. If you can appreciate and work with their qualities, you can make them do most anything.
> 
> ...


well I’m finally getting a DNA test on Ginger... what will you say when it confirms Ginger is a Dutch Shepherd? Will you apologize to me??? i would actually find it more fascinating if it indicated any other breed predominantly...she might not fit your idea of a dutchy... but Ginger has and ONLY has dutch shepherd traits... she is very shepherd and very brindled... all other breeds speculated about by others here or the dutch shepherd forum were all bogus, based on traits she doesnt have... she’s not a mastiff, akita, or pitt mix... her coat is nothing like a pitt bulls and exactly like a dutch shepherds.... Ive met several DSDs since Ive been active on here... there are several in my neighborhood even....all have recognized her as obviously a dutch shepherd...as have police from K9 units. I’m now convinced my previous dog, Valkyrie, was 1/2 rott and 1/2 dutch shepherd; she had all the dutchy characteristics Ginger doesn’t have... extraordinary speed, agility, coordination and athleticism...Ginger is easily twice her strength with a far more powerful bite... one thing... is I’m SO WRONG about Ginger...how is it I’ve had the ability to spot dutch shepherds so easily and accurately?!? Ginger defined what a dutch shepherd was to me initially.... Why is it that dogs I’ve met that were similar to her have unfailingly been dutch shepherds?!? I’m sorry if i come off as intractible or contrarian... but what you and so many others have said about Ginger... and me... makes no sense...
Oh well; I’ll have PROOF soon enough. I have, nor have ever had, any reason to delude myself about what ginger is; or just WANT her to be a DS so bad as to blind me.... Since i never knew what a DS was before ginger... even after already having a half dutchy.... I was disappointed you would follow the herd in such conformity and groupthink.....Ginger is a brindled shepherd... whatever she actually is, it was never “nonsense” to think her a dutchy... and believing so has helped guide me in raising her, which was the whole reason for believing she was a dutchy!! My horrific experience with the abusive, hate filled bullies at the Dutch Shepherd forum turned me off from social media completely and altogether for all these years...they are a profoundly pathetic lot of people unworthy of such magnificent dogs...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

And when the test shows she is NOT a Dutch Shepherd, will you be honest and admit it here?


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

So it's taken you 5+ years to decide to do a dna test? Just so you can "prove" to internet strangers that you are right?

I've had dogs all my life. My Mom rescued throughout my childhood, our family friend has a boarding kennel (where I worked as a teenager), my dad showed so we spent many days at dog shows. As an adult, I have rescued, both on my own and with a rescue group.

With all this, I can tell you with 100% certainty: you cannot tell a dog's breed solely on appearance.

I showed my childhood dog. At one show, a woman came over and asked "is she a boxer?". My Mom and I sighed and said yes. The woman apologised and said " you don't understand, I breed boxers". She had intimate knowledge of the breed and still could only hazard the guess that my dog was a boxer. Why? Because my boxer was saved at birth - she was to be put down because she was solid white, but a local kid took her. By the time she came to us, her tail had been cropped to a 1inch nub, her ears were down, her muzzle was to wide and short, her body was too wide, her legs too short, and her energy level was extremely low. She was more often identified as a pitbull than a boxer. But she was purebred.

My Moose-dog was identified as a rootie shepherd cross when I adopted him at 8 weeks. When he grew up, the consensus was that he was a dobie shepherd cross. His dna showed that he was actually a shepherd, poodle, newfie. Never would have guessed that by looking at him, but in hindsight it made sense.

My Bat-dog wasn't even labeled as anything other than shepherd mix when I adopted her at 4 months. She looked like she had maybe pit or another bully brred in her. Her dna said shepherd, corgi, shar pei, chow, beagle, boxer and german shorthair. Again, in hindsight it made sense (although I never saw anything shorthair in appearance or personality).

My Tornado-dog was labeled border collie mix at 7 weeks. His dna says JRT, shih tsu, peke and collie. So far, I see physical traits of the JRT and collie and personality traits of JRT. I still do not see anything shih tsu or peke. 

Why all this? Simply put, every "purebred" breed was developed by crossing different breeds. What you see as "definitely dutch shepherd" may not be so. Current dutch shepherds were mixed with Belgians when the original stock was dying out. The original stock was simply a working breed mixed to create a better worker, not to develop a standard on look. The original breed also consisted of non-brindle coats. The brindle only came later.

I hope you get the validation you desire from the dna test. 

For me, my love for my dogs has never wavered based on what they were "labeled" as being.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Nope, if she was black I would still absolutely be saying gsd/pit mix.
> 
> I'm sorry you're not being validated here and we're not saying what you want to hear, but that dog _does not_ look like a dutch shepherd. She looks like a 'something blocky X GSD'. Since she IS brindle that means one parent was, but that parent was almost definitely not a dutch shepherd. Their breeding is WAY too tightly controlled for that to be a possibility, or for her to have landed in a shelter. It just does not happen.


Well, I’ve FINALLY ordered a DNA test for Ginger... are you ready to apologise for being so arrogant, dismissive, and nasty when it confirms Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd?!?


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> We still talking about this?
> 
> The dog is not a Dutch shepherd. Never was and never will be.
> 
> For some reason the OP is attempting to convince people it is a Dutchie. I really thinks he is trying to convince himself.


And we are STILL talking about this! I ordered a DNA test for Ginger to confirm what Ive known for years... she is a Dutch Shepherd.... the Dutch Shepherd Forum and all of you guys have set a very low bar... if she has one percent Dutch Shepherd in her then you’re all completely wrong...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

gingerman said:


> And we are STILL talking about this! I ordered a DNA test for Ginger to confirm what Ive known for years... she is a Dutch Shepherd.... the Dutch Shepherd Forum and all of you guys have set a very low bar... if she has one percent Dutch Shepherd in her then you’re all completely wrong...


And again, when the test confirms what we’ve all been telling you, will you be honest enough to admit it here?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

“Well, I’ve FINALLY ordered a DNA test for Ginger... are you ready to apologise for being so arrogant, dismissive, and nasty when it confirms Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd?!?”

No one was rude or nasty to you. They simply didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear.


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

gingerman said:


> And we are STILL talking about this! I ordered a DNA test for Ginger to confirm what Ive known for years... she is a Dutch Shepherd.... the Dutch Shepherd Forum and all of you guys have set a very low bar... if she has one percent Dutch Shepherd in her then you’re all completely wrong...


Not quite. From what I've read, no one said she had NO dutch shepherd in her. They said she wasn't a dutch shepherd. That's two different things.

My Bat-dog had less than 10% german shorthair, but she was in no way a german shorthair. My Tornado-dog has 10-24% pekinese but is in no way a pekinese.

1% is so minimal as to be non-existent.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

What test did you pick? Either way, it will be cool to see the results!


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

DaySleepers said:


> What test did you pick? Either way, it will be cool to see the results!


i don’t remember the company offhand, I’ll look... It’s the one Banfield Clinic associated with Petsmart uses... i was wanting to use embark... I might get one through them anyway to see if their results are identical... I’d be curious if they would be....


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> Not quite. From what I've read, no one said she had NO dutch shepherd in her. They said she wasn't a dutch shepherd. That's two different things.
> 
> My Bat-dog had less than 10% german shorthair, but she was in no way a german shorthair. My Tornado-dog has 10-24% pekinese but is in no way a pekinese.
> 
> 1% is so minimal as to be non-existent.


The “experts” at the dutch shepherd forum insisted “by “no stretch of the imagination” was it possible Ginger could have “a single drop of dutch shepherd blood in her”.... i never claimed she was a purebred....


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Looks like Banfield uses Wisdom Panel, if Google is to be believed, which is one of the more decent ones. Do let us know when you get the results!


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

gingerman said:


> The “experts” at the dutch shepherd forum insisted “by “no stretch of the imagination” was it possible Ginger could have “a single drop of dutch shepherd blood in her”.... i never claimed she was a purebred....


What was written on another forum has no bearing on the folks on this forum. No one on this forum said it was absolutely impossible for her to have any dutch shepherd in her. Most have said it is highly unlikely because dutch shepherds are still rare enough In the US. That means the chance that someone with a dutch shepherd let it get loose and breed with a random dog is extremely unlikely.

Back in the 70s, a woman my mom did rescue with was notorious for labeling their rescues as rare breeds. She found that people were far more willing to adopt a rare "Siberian Maltese" than a pom-maltese mix. People fell for it. I swear she was solely responsible for the cockapoos, goldendoodles, etc, that are so prevalent today. Everyone likes to think their dog is unusual - even if it's made up.

When I got my Dog at 5 months, my dad saw her and said "she looks like a pharoah hound". She did. But that didn't change the fact that she was a shepherd/lab mix. She had no pharoah hound in her. And the odds that a rescue mix would have pharoah hound in them was... well, I was more likely to win the lottery.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> What was written on another forum has no bearing on the folks on this forum. No one on this forum said it was absolutely impossible for her to have any dutch shepherd in her. Most have said it is highly unlikely because dutch shepherds are still rare enough In the US. That means the chance that someone with a dutch shepherd let it get loose and breed with a random dog is extremely unlikely.
> 
> Back in the 70s, a woman my mom did rescue with was notorious for labeling their rescues as rare breeds. She found that people were far more willing to adopt a rare "Siberian Maltese" than a pom-maltese mix. People fell for it. I swear she was solely responsible for the cockapoos, goldendoodles, etc, that are so prevalent today. Everyone likes to think their dog is unusual - even if it's made up.
> 
> When I got my Dog at 5 months, my dad saw her and said "she looks like a pharoah hound". She did. But that didn't change the fact that she was a shepherd/lab mix. She had no pharoah hound in her. And the odds that a rescue mix would have pharoah hound in them was... well, I was more likely to win the lottery.


the oroblem is the DSF attitude...members also on that forum, followed me in here! I’n a curiosity driven person who wanted to be a responsible pet owner; I simply wanted to kniw THE TRUTH... Ginger might be a mastiff or pitt bull mix... but if she is, it’s not for any reason I was given in either forum..opinions based on the fact Ginger has a pitt bull coat or mastiff personality arent usefull because those things are simply not true! to be better aware if any health or personality issues she might have i was hungry for information; i received no information; just the opinion ginger WASN'T a dutch shepherd abd go away...ginger is too big and bulky to be a ditch shepherd by the standard of many... YET she just isn't mastiff like at all...in the flesh she is a brindled shephered, and a heaping helping of both... she expresses no other breed traits... she just seems like an excessively massive dutch shepherd....if the test comes back saying something else i won’t be disappointed...i would be fascinated what non dutchy mix could end up like her...


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

It sounds like you are condemning others for exactly what you yourself are doing. They say she is not a dutch shepherd because she has a mastiff personality. They are saying she's pit or mastiff because she has a brindled coat. You are saying she is a dutch shepherd because she has a shepherd personality and a brindled coat. 

The truth with a mix breed is rarely that simple. Here is my Moose-dog. First as an 8 week old puppy (yes, the cutest puppy ever):









Here he is as an adult (his sister Bat-dog is the smaller one):









Everyone who met him said shepherd/dobie. His personality fit, his coat fit, his coloring fit, his shape fit.

In truth, the poodle gave him the tall narrow "dobie" appearance. The shepherd gave him the "dobie" coloring. The newfie? Well that gave him the white stripe down his chest and the big baby personality. His intelligence and eager to please attitude ould come from either the shepherd or the poodle or both.

Now he is fairly simple because he only has three breeds in his mix. The shepherd consists of more than 75% of that.

Now look at Bat-dog. She has 7 breeds in her mix. It's much more difficult to pinpoint a specific breed. Shepherd mix? Good guess because shepherds and labs are the top two breeds for mixes. Beyond that? Everyone saw something different in her. Most people thought that she and Moose-dog were littermates or father/daughter. No relation.

I'm glad you are doing the dna. It's the best way to get a breed makeup on a mix breed. Asking people to guess is just that - a guess. And is based on the person's knowledge and familiarity with various breeds. Everyone will base their guess subjectively. Including you. And me.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> It sounds like you are condemning others for exactly what you yourself are doing. They say she is not a dutch shepherd because she has a mastiff personality. They are saying she's pit or mastiff because she has a brindled coat. You are saying she is a dutch shepherd because she has a shepherd personality and a brindled coat.
> 
> The truth with a mix breed is rarely that simple. Here is my Moose-dog. First as an 8 week old puppy (yes, the cutest puppy ever):
> View attachment 265449
> ...


well yes, any of our guesses are going to be inheirently subjective.... From what I kniw of DNA tests sometimes they seem to follow wahat I would guess closly... ithers seem from left field and I woukd never have guessed...I’m very curious to see what Gingers results are... she is a mystery to me..... when I first got Ginger DNA tests were much newer and I was nore sceptical about their acurracy...I would think canine genetic testing woukd have progressed these yearsas DNA testing in general has orogressed rapidly.... BTW your dogs are all orecious...the one on the bottom to the right teminds me of my first dog.. i was told she was a shepherd/rott mix, her ears tried to stand up for a while when she was a puppy; but they ended like your dogs ears... kindof “flying nun”.. flopped at the ends... In retrospect I think my first dog must have been a dutch shepherd/rott mix... she was all black except her rott markings were brindled... people often thought her legs and face were muddy lol......but i’ll never know for sure what she was...... what I took offense ti before was by the offense others took when I didn’t take their opinion as gospel... because as you said; guesses are subjective! People can say nothing for certain about a dogs pedigree from images! I wasn’t going give an opinion such as Ginger isn’t a Dutch Shepherd because “all dutch shepherds are black” much credit of course because it’s an opinion based on false information! If someone had pics of a dog strongly resembling Ginger who’s genetics were known then i would have found that convincing; but nobody did...... there is a whole subset of a type of dogs, often working dogs that are typically larger and heavier with karger heads; the “x-herder” that people call Dutch Shepherds that the dutch sheoherd forum denies the existence of..... if Ginger is substancially a dutch shepherdI would think her likely this type


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

gingerman said:


> well yes, any of our guesses are going to be inheirently subjective.... From what I kniw of DNA tests sometimes they seem to follow wahat I would guess closly... ithers seem from left field and I woukd never have guessed...I’m very curious to see what Gingers results are... she is a mystery to me..... when I first got Ginger DNA tests were much newer and I was nore sceptical about their acurracy...I would think canine genetic testing woukd have progressed these yearsas DNA testing in general has orogressed rapidly.... BTW your dogs are all orecious...the one on the bottom to the right teminds me of my first dog.. i was told she was a shepherd/rott mix, her ears tried to stand up for a while when she was a puppy; but they ended like your dogs ears... kindof “flying nun”.. flopped at the ends... In retrospect I think my first dog must have been a dutch shepherd/rott mix... she was all black except her rott markings were brindled... people often thought her legs and face were muddy lol......but i’ll never know for sure what she was...... what I took offense ti before was by the offense others took when I didn’t take their opinion as gospel... because as you said; guesses are subjective! People can say nothing for certain about a dogs pedigree from images! I wasn’t going give an opinion such as Ginger isn’t a Dutch Shepherd because “all dutch shepherds are black” much credit of course because it’s an opinion based on false information! If someone had pics of a dog strongly resembling Ginger who’s genetics were known then i would have found that convincing; but nobody did...... there is a whole subset of a type of dogs, often working dogs that are typically larger and heavier with karger heads; the “x-herder” that people call Dutch Shepherds that the dutch sheoherd forum denies the existence of..... if Ginger is substancially a dutch shepherdI would think her likely this type


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

LittleFr0g said:


> And again, when the test confirms what we’ve all been telling you, will you be honest enough to admit it here?


Well of course... why wouldnt I? I’m a logical person... I have no fear of ideas... and that includes being wring... If fact I’m always searching for things that I am wrong about or ignorant of....... but I’m not going to just believe I’m wrong just because soneone... or 100 someones even, says so if they have no convincing reasoning or information thats explains the truth... DNA tests are information; not subjective opinions.... .. 
What would have been dishonest for me to agree or ptetend to be convinced by people when I simply was not convinced.... I might be completely wrong about everything!! But i simply was not convinced based on any info given... DNA will add convincing info to anyone’s stories that guessed the results beforehand

this dog isstrikingly similat to Ginger...


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

I would bet money that the dog in the video is an akita mix and not a dutch shepherd. The muzzle shape and size and the face wrinkles are very much akita and not shepherdy at all. And the coat thickness and length is very much akita. The oversized upright ears would suggest some shepherd in there, but it could be GSD or malinois.

From your photo, I would say the same. Although Ginger's coat doesn't appear to be as dense as the one in the video, it looks much denser than a shepherd's. Akita would explain Ginger's white chest too. Possibly shar pei in there.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> I would bet money that the dog in the video is an akita mix and not a dutch shepherd. The muzzle shape and size and the face wrinkles are very much akita and not shepherdy at all. And the coat thickness and length is very much akita. The oversized upright ears would suggest some shepherd in there, but it could be GSD or malinois.
> 
> From your photo, I would say the same. Although Ginger's coat doesn't appear to be as dense as the one in the video, it looks much denser than a shepherd's. Akita would explain Ginger's white chest too. Possibly shar pei in there.


You very well could be right... we’ll find out soon enough; But if that dog and/or Ginger are more substantially Akita rather than DS mixes, it wouldn’t be because of the coats... I can’t say for certain about that dog; but Ginger has a coat identical to short haired dutch shepherds we’ve encountered and quite different from Akitas.....the dutchy coat exceedingly glossy/slick/shiny/smooth suspended by a shallow but dense layer of white feathery undercoat... the coarse but supple top coat laying very smoothly as to sometimes look like a very short single coat from any distance unless she gets excited then her coat can stand up fluffy... Akitas coats are finer and much poofier...not nearly as glossy and reflective as a short haired dutchy, especially the poofy curling tails...


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

gingerman said:


> You very well could be right... we’ll find out soon enough; But if that dog and/or Ginger are more substantially Akita rather than DS mixes, it wouldn’t be because of the coats... I can’t say for certain about that dog; but Ginger has a coat identical to short haired dutch shepherds we’ve encountered and quite different from Akitas.....the dutchy coat exceedingly glossy/slick/shiny/smooth suspended by a shallow but dense layer of white feathery undercoat... the coarse but supple top coat laying very smoothly as to sometimes look like a very short single coat from any distance unless she gets excited then her coat can stand up fluffy... Akitas coats are finer and much poofier...not nearly as glossy and reflective as a short haired dutchy, especially the poofy curling tails...


is it possible you could be misreading the line between puffy coat and bulging muscles? That dog appears to me to have massive neck and head muscles like ginger.....and a blocky massive build by shepherd standards...especially a female......
I understand the ways it seems unlikely Ginger is a Dutch shepherd... It seems unlikely to me too; but i can honestly say that her being any other breed actually seems even less likely to me! We shall see.....


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

gingerman said:


> is it possible you could be misreading the line between puffy coat and bulging muscles? That dog appears to me to have massive neck and head muscles like ginger.....and a blocky massive build by shepherd standards...especially a female......
> I understand the ways it seems unlikely Ginger is a Dutch shepherd... It seems unlikely to me too; but i can honestly say that her being any other breed actually seems even less likely to me! We shall see.....


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

No I'm not mistaking muscles for the coat. Both dogs have coats that are unlikely to be purebred coats and the similarities to an akita coat are very strong in my opinion.

Remember that mixed dogs will combine traits in weird ways. It isn't necessarily that X trait will be akita and Y trait will be shepherd. Sometimes, especially with coats, it becomes a mixture. So the topcoat may come from one breed and the undercoat from another breed.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> So it's taken you 5+ years to decide to do a dna test? Just so you can "prove" to internet strangers that you are right?
> 
> I've had dogs all my life. My Mom rescued throughout my childhood, our family friend has a boarding kennel (where I worked as a teenager), my dad showed so we spent many days at dog shows. As an adult, I have rescued, both on my own and with a rescue group.
> 
> ...


I agree with you! I agree you cannot tell with certainty what a dog is based on appearance alone...but some people from this forum and Most from the DSF would take great offense to your suggestion THEY couldn’t tell because they’re “breed experts”...but I haven’t come back just to prove myself right; I very well might be wrong! But why shouldn’t I come back and update? I wanted this discussion to be about exploring Ginger’s nature, and the nature of dutch shepherds and/or whatever other breed/breeds she turns out to be; not just about how wrong Kevin is... there is limited available info on Dutch Shepherds... especially working variety types...what Ginger turns out to be might be useful or interesting to somebody else...I DID initially join this forum with a chip on my shoulders because the DSF was that nasty to me and i wanted to save anyone the abuse I endured on there if possible... and abuse is the only word.... They were Acutely vicious and abusive in their approach to me for no reason whatsoever because i dared have a spec of scepticism about their ability to know a dogs generic code with cast iron certainty just from an image online..
ONE thing is for SURE... Ginger is obviously certain she is a dutch shepherd lol.....she made that very clear with non-verbal communication...and that counts for a lot in my mind...


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> No I'm not mistaking muscles for the coat. Both dogs have coats that are unlikely to be purebred coats and the similarities to an akita coat are very strong in my opinion.
> 
> Remember that mixed dogs will combine traits in weird ways. It isn't necessarily that X trait will be akita and Y trait will be shepherd. Sometimes, especially with coats, it becomes a mixture. So the topcoat may come from one breed and the undercoat from another breed.


It’s funny... some have repetedly insisted Ginger couldn’t possibly be a Dutchy because they’re convinced she has the short single coat of a pitt bull... I would say it is much closer to an akitas coat than a pitt bulls! but Gingers coat isn’t that long... just doesn’t seem long or poofy enough compared with Akita’s to me, especially the tail... but who knows... like you said, mixes can mix characteristics....Whatever mix she is or isn’t however, there were no decernable differences between her coat and purebred dutch shepherds she’s played with; in length, thickness, feel and texture the coats were identical..


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

jolie said:


> Hi. I'm just a lurker on this here community but, OP, I recognized your dog immediately because I remember the thread on the Dutch Shepherd Forum from way back when.
> 
> I was going to move on, since we both know well enough that you've dug your heels in, I've been debating not posting this at all, but I can't deny that it's starting to grind on me how adamantly you're presenting your dog as a Dutch Shepherd. Though I will admit I'm actually kind of impressed that you're still chugging along with this delusion all these months later. Dedication.
> 
> ...


I doubt anyone ever ran out and aquireda dutchy because of interactions with me and Ginger. Laying claim to a rare, exclusive and exotic breed never had anything to do with my belief Ginger is a DS; It’s her combination of shepherd characteristics and her brindle coat... which are not common at all....nor was I ever“lying“ to myself and others... I simply believed and believe Ginger shows dutch shepherd traits... period; I understand if she is a dutchy she would be an anomalous one... but I’ve done lots of research that indicate their are two different typesof duchies...with considerably different traits; the DSF deems one of those, and all the websites that speak of those as “incorrect”.... we will see what the DNA test shows...I believe Dutch Shepherds are actually not exactly a “pure” breed anyway by the strictest definitions of some but are actually “glorified mutts”... rare, specifically bred shepherd “mutts”.. so thats no insult.... what your saying is Ginger is a non glorified mutt....maybe thats what the DNA test will show.... what Ginger ISN’T is common... anyone that says they’ve seen LOTS of dogs like Ginger is lying... I’ve never met another dog quite like her; not even dutch shepherds... like I said if she is one she is an anomaly...nonetheless DS is the only breed she exhibits the traits of; and the only breed she has shown close similarities too. I would have pegged the dog in your post as a dutch shepherd immediately... I’ve never failed to spot one... as huge of difference as you might see. Rhea, a pure bred dutchy I posted ages ago looks similar and looks dramatically different than Ginger...... seeing themplaying together was a different story; you couldn’t imagine how uncanny their similarities were, and would simply have no idea based on photos. Ginger is a very sweet mellow dog; that is not to say she hasn’t been a real handful at times... she can be extremely strong willed and at times excessively enthusiastic and very intense.. and so strong as to be intimidating to handle... she definately wouldn’t be a dog for just anyone......never ever bite though...Not the tiniest play nibble as a puppy.even... always and only kisses.... tons and tons and tons of kisses... HOURS of kisses if i let her!


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## Poppy14 (Apr 13, 2017)

This thread is absolutely wild . I've just learned that there are an excessive amount of Dutch Shepherds in Kansas, which as a Kansan, I was not previously aware of, lol.

It will be interesting to see what results you get. I adopted a Cocker puppy 7 years ago. No doubt he was a Cocker. I posted on a Cocker forum asking the people there if he was a Cocker and got resounding replies of "yes! He's a working cocker!". Decided to do an Embark test. He is a Cocker - about 45% of him anyway. The rest? Border Collie (mostly) and even Great Pyrenees, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, and Chow. When I told people of his mix, I got a lot of responses suddenly that they could definitely see the BC in him. The rest of the breeds seem a little out of left field, but he's from OK and his rescue is constantly taking in those breeds and mixes thereof, so not uncommon or impossible.










The point being, as others have said, that if you go out and buy a purebred dog from a good breeder you can expect certain traits. If you get one from a bad breeder, you can expect those traits but you may very well not have them. With mixed breeds though? It's all up in the air. And if your dog is a mix, it doesn't mean she doesn't need mental stimulation or that she's not a good dog, or that she can't do shepherd stuff or act like a shepherd. I'm not a hunter, but I would bet that my dog, even as a mix, could do a decent job of flushing birds if I were so inclined to go that route (he is very much so inclined to go that route, lol).


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

makenna said:


> This thread is absolutely wild . I've just learned that there are an excessive amount of Dutch Shepherds in Kansas, which as a Kansan, I was not previously aware of, lol.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what results you get. I adopted a Cocker puppy 7 years ago. No doubt he was a Cocker. I posted on a Cocker forum asking the people there if he was a Cocker and got resounding replies of "yes! He's a working cocker!". Decided to do an Embark test. He is a Cocker - about 45% of him anyway. The rest? Border Collie (mostly) and even Great Pyrenees, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, and Chow. When I told people of his mix, I got a lot of responses suddenly that they could definitely see the BC in him. The rest of the breeds seem a little out of left field, but he's from OK and his rescue is constantly taking in those breeds and mixes thereof, so not uncommon or impossible.
> 
> ...


the DNA test is indeed Wisdom Panel; We shall see. I wouldn’t say there are an excessive number of Dutch Shepherds in kansas... I’ve still met fewer than two dozen, and I’ve been lookingfor them...but they’ve been using then in K9 units in police forces for a long time here...I’ve wondered if any are bred here for Ft Reiley possibly.... i believe my first dog i adopted in the early 90s was 1/2 dutchy/1/2 rott... Though I remained ignorant of their existance before adopting Ginger and then researching what breed she might be. I was always looking for a rott/shepherd mix like Val, but could never find one with her brindled rott markings.... I’ve still never seen a dog that looked like her; she had dutchy traits Ginger does not... astonishing speed, agility, and jumping ability. She was wickedly smart and understood a remarkable number of words... I took to spelling them out as to not get her excited but then she would learn the spelling...she would also try and “talk”... i never understood her, but she would make the strangest sounds as if she was clearly trying to say something...and incredible focus... i had a couple of dozen toys i woukd hide and tell her to find one soecifically; and she would be gone over an hour sometimes and yet always find it...


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

gingerman said:


> she had dutchy traits Ginger does not... astonishing speed, agility, and jumping ability. She was wickedly smart and understood a remarkable number of words


The thing is none of those traits are solely dutch shepherd. Border collies, auusies, cattle dogs, poodles, other shepherds, huskies, terriers, and so on, also share those traits.

There are no behavioral traits that are restricted to just one breed. Rather they tend to be associated with a type of dog. Sight hounds tend to have similar traits, as do herding dogs or terriers. Not every breed within the type will have all the same traits, but no trait will be so limited as to only appear in one single breed. For example, herding dogs will share intelligence, agility, speed and loyalty, but a GSD and collie will be more eager to please their owner than a corgi or old english. A sheltie or groenedael are more likely to be shy than a malinois or aussie. Huskies will share the intelligence and speed, but will skip the loyalty and "eager to please" of a border collie. A GSD will be loyal and intelligent but won't be as tenacious as a JRT, who will also be intelligent and loyal.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> The thing is none of those traits are solely dutch shepherd. Border collies, auusies, cattle dogs, poodles, other shepherds, huskies, terriers, and so on, also share those traits.
> 
> There are no behavioral traits that are restricted to just one breed. Rather they tend to be associated with a type of dog. Sight hounds tend to have similar traits, as do herding dogs or terriers. Not every breed within the type will have all the same traits, but no trait will be so limited as to only appear in one single breed. For example, herding dogs will share intelligence, agility, speed and loyalty, but a GSD and collie will be more eager to please their owner than a corgi or old english. A sheltie or groenedael are more likely to be shy than a malinois or aussie. Huskies will share the intelligence and speed, but will skip the loyalty and "eager to please" of a border collie. A GSD will be loyal and intelligent but won't be as tenacious as a JRT, who will also be intelligent and loyal.


Well yes... I agree with everything you’ve said. I am a very logical, scientific type; everything you’ve said is logical... as a scientific type; I’m certain of nothing! I honestly can’t say for sure how Ginger came to be! But I’m very curious...
I’ve gotten grief my whole life for being an insufferrably stubborn, arrogant know it all... I was confined to a closet as punishment in grade school because I refused to accept that Pluto was bigger than Murcury... because I knew that just wasnt true.... But nothing your saying is inconsistent with how I understand things... Probably to a greater extreme... canine genetics is an endlessly complex subject; I see every dog as an individual.. no two dogs are identical... and breeds are a forever morphing and evolving thing; I’m old enough to have literally watch breeds change over time... The GSD of the 70s was different than the GSD of today.... which brings me back to Ginger...Since she was just a puppy that showed up; I had no pre-conceptions of what she was; and I had never heard of a dutch shepherd.. I initially thought Akita-shepherd mix... but in further research ruled that out as unlikely.. it was only after ruling out many mixes as unlikely that I learned of the dutch shepherd... but what Ginger really seemed MOST similar to wasn’t Dutch Shepherds of TODAY, but their ancestors! Anything is possible... maybe she is some other mix completely that manifests emulating an akita-ish retroshepherd... but fundamentally Ginger is shepherd like in every way... maybe an akita-ish shepherd but a shepherd; much more than she seems like a shepherdish-akita... 
As unlikely as it seems though, I can’t honestly deny she seems like an XL version of dogs that lived over a century ago... which i find confusing and facinating. Dutch shepherds are rare... and almost extinct decades ago... but were actually a far more numerous breed long ago... perhaps hundreds of thousands... and is a very old... even ancient breed historically...that tells me it is possible that as rare as they are... the genetics of their ancestors might be widespread in small or varying amounts... If Ginger has genetics originating from dutchy/shepherd ancestory... what would that make her?


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

Again, the "fault" in your theory is that you based ruling out breeds based on the idea that she is a crossbreed (the offspring of two different purebreds) rather than a mixed breed. You removed the akita-shepherd because you didn't see what you think of as "akita" in her appearance. But in that, you failed to consider three important things:
1. that you simply weren't recognizing akita traits (physical or behavioral) because you were basing it on passive knowledge (reading breed standards and looking at photos), rather than active knowledge (having extensive interaction with the breed and thereby learning the variations in the breed that don't necessarily match the breed standard).
2. that a mixed breed dog may not show an obvious trait of a contained breed because it may be much more subtle than with a crossbreed.
3. again, the more breeds in the mix, the more likely you will see a different breed. This is extremely common with bully breeds because they have been developed by breeding together other bully breeds. I told my dad once that a friend just got a "boxer pitbull mix" puppy. His response "that's redundant". 

And very often, the more adamant you are, the more wrong you end up being.

With Moose-dog, I was positive he had dobie in him. I was completely wrong. What I thought was a sure thing was anything but.

With Bat-dog, I was all over the place: well, she definitely has GSD in her; she talks and she's very good at scenting, so maybe beagle; she has black on her tongue, so maybe one of the Japanese breeds - most likely chow, but she has this real velvety coat right around her mouth (and only there), so maybe shar pei; she has the occasional "fit" where she gets mad, maybe that's "corgi rage"; she uses her front feet a lot, maybe boxer. Oh heck, I don't know, she could be anything. I was totally surprised when her results came back with all those breeds. The only unguessed was the german shorthair. And in hindsight, had I seen her " point" once BEFORE I did the test, I might have thought "some sort of setter or pointer".


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> Again, the "fault" in your theory is that you based ruling out breeds based on the idea that she is a crossbreed (the offspring of two different purebreds) rather than a mixed breed. You removed the akita-shepherd because you didn't see what you think of as "akita" in her appearance. But in that, you failed to consider three important things:
> 1. that you simply weren't recognizing akita traits (physical or behavioral) because you were basing it on passive knowledge (reading breed standards and looking at photos), rather than active knowledge (having extensive interaction with the breed and thereby learning the variations in the breed that don't necessarily match the breed standard).
> 2. that a mixed breed dog may not show an obvious trait of a contained breed because it may be much more subtle than with a crossbreed.
> 3. again, the more breeds in the mix, the more likely you will see a different breed. This is extremely common with bully breeds because they have been developed by breeding together other bully breeds. I told my dad once that a friend just got a "boxer pitbull mix" puppy. His response "that's redundant".
> ...


I’ve ruled out absolutely nothing... I STARTED out thinking Ginger was an akita mix... I simply “ruled it out” of being the most LIKELY! It’s possible... Akitas are beautiful dogs and I have nothing agaibst them at all... If she turns out to be an akita mix I wouldn’t be upset or dissapointed in the least..... And I see an akita-ish ness to gingers appearance; thats why I started out thinking thst what she might be...but I just don’t think so...really comoaring Ginger to Akitas in real time.....


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

But your "ruling out as unlikely" is not based on anything real.

For example, you rule out an akita mix as unlikely even though you saw a physical resemblance just because she looks and acts more shepherdy. You think it is far more likely that she is dutch shepherd because she reminds you of the early dutch shepherds. Yet she doesn't remind you of dutch shepherds as they exist today.

As we agree, an akita-shepherd mix may show only a little akita and a lot more shepherd. In addition, there may be, and are likely to be, other breeds in there that will affect the dog's appearance and temperament. So ruling it out as "unlikely" is completely disregarding what does make you see akita because you are thinking "it's not enough".

Now look at the dutch shepherd resemblance. 


gingerman said:


> but what Ginger really seemed MOST similar to wasn’t Dutch Shepherds of TODAY, but their ancestors!


Dutch shepherds as a breed are only about 100 years old. So to what "ancestors" are you comparing them? Before that, they were simply dogs of mixed backgrounds being bred to do a job and not to conform to a certain look.

They were not recognized as a breed by the AKC until 2017. Why? Because there weren't enough of them in the states. Folks who got dutch shepherds prior to that were buying and transporting them from Europe. And when you spend that much money to get a dog, you do NOT let it breed with whatever's around and you do NOT let the puppies (even if an accidental litter) end up in a shelter, rescue or on the street because it hurts the breed. So, the odds of a dutch shepherd breeding with a dog of a different breed or breed mixture in the states is not just unlikely, but almost impossible. And finding a dutch shepherd purebred or mix puppy on the streets, or in a shelter or rescue, was just as impossible.

Now, with the breed recognized by the AKC and people looking for the next "protection dog", the dutch shepherd is being bought by people who are willing to breed indiscriminately and who are not researching the breed and abandoning them to shelters, etc when they can't control them. So now the breed is starting to show up. But, it is still far more likely that the brindled shepherd at the shelter is actually just a GSD mix.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> But your "ruling out as unlikely" is not based on anything real.
> 
> For example, you rule out an akita mix as unlikely even though you saw a physical resemblance just because she looks and acts more shepherdy. You think it is far more likely that she is dutch shepherd because she reminds you of the early dutch shepherds. Yet she doesn't remind you of dutch shepherds as they exist today.
> 
> ...


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Sorry... my stupod phone...to andwer your question about ancestors, “spitz”, a pedigree dutch shepherd of 130 years ago, beats similarities to Ginger... a nearly identical white patch, brindled face, a couple white toenails (I think in the 1890 fuzzy photo)...


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Rhea was the second dutch shepherd I met... a pure bred young female the same age as ginger... pure bred and 62 lbs...Ginger was more enthusiastic about meeting Rhea than any orher dog she’s met.. thats why i claim she thinks she is a dutchy... they look so different don’t they? We all live in our own realities... and nithing I say might fit into YOURS, but in MY reality, along with Rhea’s owner and snyone nearby, Ginger and Rhea were obviously the same breed in ways broad and subtle... Ginger was basically Rhea with a white patch, white toes, and 30lbs of muscle on a very similar frame...gingers dementions were within an inch of Rheas in every direction... the coats were identical in legth and texture... Ginger was more like Rhea than any other dog she has met...their movements were mirror images of each other.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

The first dutchy i met seemed perhaps more similar to Ginger but was just a puppy... the ownwr did say the dogs father was 120 pounds, which of course is too big by DSF standards just like Ginger... but purchased as a dutch shepherd nonetheless... but never an adult dutchy as big as Gunger... excelt the large mail mostly black dutchy (DSF concluded he WAS a DS), about the same weight but with longer hair. As far as mixes go; there is a dog living two blocks from me with floppy ears and only 1/2 covered with a brindke coat... but gave me a ditchy feeling... i asked the owner what type of dog it was.... he said Embark concluded she was over 50% dutch shepherd, which he had neber heard of before that...
The main reason I tgought of an akita GSD mix initially is because I had never met a dutch shepherd before ginger... if I had O would have thought thats what she was... mainly yrying to figure out the big shepherd ears combined with the brindke coat... but then i looked up akita GSD crosses and none of them looked like ginger....


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Actually the dog most identical to Ginger as far as size and shape have been large white german shepherds... which in my exoerience have been quite different from other GSDs body wise.... donetimes very stocky without any sliope to the back hips...
I’ve read anything I could find online about dutch shepherds, and there are several websites and info I’ve found with conpletely contradictory information... I’ve bren told the ones condradicting anything said ny the DSF are “incorrect” websites....i suppose the ones that say things like 90% of working dutchies ate unregisyeted; are larger and heavier built with much karger heads... so ginger just logically fits that description.. but since i had never heard of or met a dutch shepherd, at least knowingly, before Ginger... so I had zero oreconceptions about dutch shepherds; I’m not fashion or status aware; I had zero romantic or emotional attachment to what a dutch shepherd was; as opposed to people in the DSF who obviously felt very strongly sbout what a dutch shepherd IS NOT... so they have a far more emotionally charged opinion.... I fan see how or why they think Gibger SHOULDN’T be a dutch shephers... an abomination...she has hip dysplasia after all (Not severe)... but I was never going to breed Ginger... so I’m not the enemy...as far as what she is... well the DNA test will tell us! My only fear has been she would just come put as “dog” with nothing definitive...i would hope it will be more enlightening than that...


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

gingerman said:


> The main reason I tgought of an akita GSD mix initially is because I had never met a dutch shepherd before ginger... if I had O would have thought thats what she was... mainly yrying to figure out the big shepherd ears combined with the brindke coat... but then i looked up akita GSD crosses and none of them looked like ginger....


Again, your arguments are faulty. You are ignoring everything that doesn't fit your hypothesis.



gingerman said:


> to andwer your question about ancestors, “spitz”, a pedigree dutch shepherd of 130 years ago, beats similarities to Ginger... a nearly identical white patch, brindled face, a couple white toenails (I think in the 1890 fuzzy photo)...


So you are basing your entire argument on a 130 year old grainy photo that shows nothing but a brindled shepherdy looking dog. "She must be a dutch shepherd because look she has the same white patch" (many many many dogs of many many many breeds and mixes have that same white patch).

Reminds me of an aunt's argument that we are descended from some famous Native American chief.

Never mind the decades of geneology work my Mom had done proving there was no connection. Ignore that dna testing show abssolutely zero Native American in our genes. He MUST be our ancestor "because his hands looks just like my sons"...

Oh, and forget that the image she based this on was a painting.

As my Mom would point out, you can't argue with logic like that.

So I will bow out of this. You keep saying you have no " investment" in Ginger being a dutch shepherd, but the truth is, you are latching on to ghosts to "prove" a lineage that isn't going to be there.


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> Again, your arguments are faulty. You are ignoring everything that doesn't fit your hypothesis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your not saying my arguments are faulty; your saying my FACTS are faulty! Your basing YOUR argument on what you see is Ginger’s obviously Akinta traits... I’m basing my hypothesis in the FACTS that Gingers coat, ears, and tail are identical to a dutch shepherd’s...and are nothing like an akita’s. Maybe my facts are all weong and I’m delutional and hallucinatory... We shall see in the DNA test right? But I simply am not going to believe anything anyone says online OVER what i can see woth my own eyes and feel with my own fingers; period! Nobody would! People make a big deal put if the fact I am so outnumbered in the opinion that Ginger is a “Dutchy”...it doesn’t matter if it’s 100 to 1 if the 100 reasons are self contreadictory! As in, ginger is obviously not a dutchy because she has an akita coat... and she is obviously not a dutchy because she has a pitt bull coat! THAT MAKES NO SENSE! Ginger has the coat and ears of a Dutch Shepherd; plain and simple... whether or not this makes her a “Dutch Shepherd” is another question altogether... but a better wuestion altogether, because it’s based on FACTS!.....


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Besides, my entire “augument” all along isn’t that Ginger is a “dutch shepherd” as in the purebred dog recognized by the DSF; but from crossbred, workin/protection dog stock that I read about that were brindled shepherds but with “larger, hevier builds and much larger heads” than pure bred dutch shepherds... maybe she is, maybe she isn’t, but the DSF doesn’t acknowledge these dogs exist! Acording to wesites/books/information I’ve tead the DSF deemed “incorrect, these dogs have “changed lottle for more than a century” as opposed to “a far cry from the refined dutch shepherd of today”... thats why ginger’s similarity to dutchies of history was significant to me. It would be logical that dogs bred for ability and temperment over visual appearance would change little... breeding a dog to keep their appearance conforming to the latest fashion trend does nothing to maintain extraordinary capability and temperament and can do the opposite...


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## gingerman (Dec 27, 2013)

Toedtoes said:


> Again, your arguments are faulty. You are ignoring everything that doesn't fit your hypothesis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


couple of other points I’d like to adress... no, I’m not invested in Ginger being a dutch shepherd... but I’m not invested in her NOT being a dutch shepherd either... and no I’m not basing my entire “argument” on and old photo... I did a lot of research; that was just one aspect that I shared to answer your questions... and I havent ignored ANY information to fit my hypothesis... my hypothesis, faulty or not, is based on ALL the information I’ve gathered... oh well... we shall see what the test says... I should get the results soon...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

gingerman said:


> couple of other points I’d like to adress... no, I’m not invested in Ginger being a dutch shepherd... but I’m not invested in her NOT being a dutch shepherd either... and no I’m not basing my entire “argument” on and old photo... I did a lot of research; that was just one aspect that I shared to answer your questions... and I havent ignored ANY information to fit my hypothesis... my hypothesis, faulty or not, is based on ALL the information I’ve gathered... oh well... we shall see what the test says... I should get the results soon...


Did you get the results yet?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Guess we have our answer, lol. I was hoping he’d be honest enough to come back and admit he was wrong when he got the results, but I can’t say I’m surprised.


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

It's been 23 days since he posted that he had sent in the dna. Most tests offer results somewhere between 2 and 6 weeks. So, it's possible he hasn't received the results yet.

I do suspect that he enjoys the "argument" that his dog is a dutch shepherd more than anything.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Toedtoes said:


> It's been 23 days since he posted that he had sent in the dna. Most tests offer results somewhere between 2 and 6 weeks. So, it's possible he hasn't received the results yet.
> 
> I do suspect that he enjoys the "argument" that his dog is a dutch shepherd more than anything.


Except he said 9 days ago that he expected the results shortly, and stopped posting a couple days after, and hasn’t returned to the forum since. Given that he was posting daily in this thread and has ignored a request for an update, I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume he got his results and they weren’t what he hoped


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## Toedtoes (Sep 25, 2021)

LittleFr0g said:


> Except he said 9 days ago that he expected the results shortly, and stopped posting a couple days after, and hasn’t returned to the forum since. Given that he was posting daily in this thread and has ignored a request for an update, I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume he got his results and they weren’t what he hoped


The companies don't give you a more detailed expected result date other than 2-4 weeks, 4-6 weeks, etc. So I suspect he was just saying "I expect the results soon" because he had hit the minimum time frame. If he sent it in 23 days ago, then his post expecting results soon would have fallen at the 2 week mark - which would have been the very earliest he would receive results.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't agree that he is unlikely to come back and admit he was wrong. I just think it is still too soon to call him on it.


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## tallcandy427 (12 mo ago)

gingerman said:


> A year ago I precious puppy came into my life. She had apparently been abandoned with no chip, collar or tag and had been hanging around the neighborhood for a couple of weeks. She was very weak and bony, and basically slept for two days straight when she came home with us. I had never seen a dog that looked anything like her, and I was curious as to what type of mix she could possibly be (I was assuming she was a mix). In my search I came across a photo of a dog that seemed to be the same breed as Ginger, a short haired Dutch Shepherd. I read half amazed at what seemed to describe a rare breed that was basically a super dog that could do anything. If a breed was so rare and so desirable, why would a puppy be abandoned? I still don't have an answer, but I have found other dogs like ginger up for adoption. For such an apparently rare breed, I was amazed at how much of the information available was contradictory and confusing. I joined the Dutch Shepherd Forum where my dog was deemed "not a dutch shepherd" and they kicked me off the site for "trolling" I have done more research since then and can say for certain the "experts" on that site dispense information that is highly suspect and they seem to have a zero tolerance policy on debate and opinions.
> My dog appears to be a "Kruising Hollandse Herder", or a mixed-bred short hair. These dogs have been bred larger for police dog and other types of work and have malinois and some GSD in them. It seems to me some of the "American" dutch shepherd aficionados don't recognize these "Dutch" dutch shepherds as Dutch shepherds at all and their history is all a myth. I don't know why.
> Anyone out there with experience with this breed that would like to discuss?


I think I have the same dog as you


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm going to close this thread to further replies, as the original poster hasn't been back to update in several months now. Feel free to join in any of our current discussions, or start a new thread of your own!


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