# pooping out of spite?



## kinsie (Jul 17, 2007)

We're having issues with our 11 week old akita pup biting us, things, clothes, everything. 

We come home and will not rush to her crate, look, or speak to her. We'll calmly open the gate and let her out back to go to the bathroom.

But once she's done she's all over the place. Biting our hands when we try to pet or leash her. Our ankles, shins, pants, feet when we walk. Skirts and dresses when I wear them. Purses hanging from the side of a chair. TV wires. Tv remotes. Concrete blocks that weight the surround sound speakers (we think she's sharpening her teeth!)


We tried firm NO's! 
High pitched Yelps coupled with ignoring her. (still have to pry her mouth open to get your hand back).
And shaking a can with coins in them (worked for maybe 1/2 a day)
Water spray bottle (phased her once and never again)
Turning and ignoring her (she still bites/pulls/goes to town on our pants)
Leaving the room (she just finds other non toy things to chew). 
Holding her mouth shut with a firm NO!
Pressing her tongue down. 
Bitter apple spray (but admittedly we forget to use it on our skin every day).
Alpha Rolling (until we read that this is considered abusive)
Distracting her with another toy (worked fairly well until recently)

[/LIST]

Nothing seems to phase her. 

So now when she bites us hard we'll pick her up and put her in the laundry room and close the door till she calms down. Usually it's 1-2 minutes. She actually seems to mind this. She'll cry and whine but when we let her out she doesn't go after us (at least not right away). But we're finding that she's pooping and peeing in there in that short amount of time she's confined.

My husband thinks she's doing it out of spite. Will dogs do this kind of thing out of spite? She's never pooped inside the house before but seems to have no problem doing it when we put her in there when she bites hard. 

She's broken skin on 2 occassions. Once on my toe (she grabbed my foot as I was walking) andt he last one being a 1/2" long gash on the pad of my husband's thumb. 

My coworker who has two rotties says I should bite back. And she's totally serious. I don't think I'll be doing that. 

We normally try to distract her with toys she's allowed to bite + chew but the past few days that hasn't been working very well. And we do put her toys in rotation so she doesn't get bored with them so quickly. She still prefers to go after us. Or we try to tire her out by throwing balls inside the house to tire her out but she doesn't tire all that easily anymore. 

We live in a gated community and have resorted to taking her out on walks in the middle of the street where it's less likely other dogs have been to try and burn off all her energy. But we're not completely comfortable with this either since she hasn't has all her shots.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I don't believe dogs are spiteful or vengeful. Those are pretty much human characteristics.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

I have to echo RonE on the fact that dogs do not do things out of spite. 
I would cross everything off your list and ditch the suggestions you've heard and teach this....The Bite Stops Here

It's not a quick fix and you are going to have to strap on the patience, but if you stay consistent, it _will_ pay off.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

kinsie said:


> We tried firm NO's!
> High pitched Yelps coupled with ignoring her. (still have to pry her mouth open to get your hand back).
> And shaking a can with coins in them (worked for maybe 1/2 a day)
> Water spray bottle (phased her once and never again)
> ...


What has your breeder suggested?
Are you consistent with any of these techniques?
Have you enrolled her in a puppy school yet?



> My husband thinks she's doing it out of spite. Will dogs do this kind of thing out of spite? She's never pooped inside the house before but seems to have no problem doing it when we put her in there when she bites hard.


IMO, dogs are amoral. Especially puppies. Biting and chewing is what puppies do. You just happen to have a puppy who's biting and chewing habits exceeds your expectations.

Have you read the sticky titled "The Bite Stops Here"? 



> She's broken skin on 2 occassions. Once on my toe (she grabbed my foot as I was walking) andt he last one being a 1/2" long gash on the pad of my husband's thumb.


Yes, puppy teeth are very sharp. 



> My coworker who has two rotties says I should bite back. And she's totally serious. I don't think I'll be doing that.


Does your coworker have a tail? Don't think for a second that we humans can mimic the ritualistic behavior of dogs. Because, if this pup thinks biting is a fun game, and only she knows the rules, you may not enjoy the outcome. This advise is down right stupid. 



> We normally try to distract her with toys she's allowed to bite + chew but the past few days that hasn't been working very well. And we do put her toys in rotation so she doesn't get bored with them so quickly. She still prefers to go after us. Or we try to tire her out by throwing balls inside the house to tire her out but she doesn't tire all that easily anymore.


What else have you been teaching her?


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## IslandMutts (Jul 23, 2007)

Make sure you praise her when she is chewing on a toy and not you. If she goes to bite your hand, offer her the toy, and if she chews on the toy, give her lots of praise.


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## redox (May 21, 2007)

Pooping out of spite? Probably quite the opposite. It may seem strange to us, but to a dog poop is the best thing in the world. Especially other species poop like rabbits, geese, etc. Have you ever met a dog that didn't love sniffing poop. Apparently it even tastes good sometimes  It may be that she thinks she's leaving you a great gift to sniff.  

As far as the biting goes, if you've been consistent with the other methods (keep in mind it may take weeks to see a difference) and your puppy isn't getting the idea when you ignore her, you may try a spray water bottle. If the reaction is one of mild dislike and gets her attention when she is sprayed then it may work. I wouldn't use the spray method if she seems afraid or terribly upset when she gets sprayed.


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

You need to find a way to stop this behavior ASAP. Akitas are known for aggressive behavior so you need to assert that YOU are the alpha "dog" in the pack. We've had three problem dogs (all Eskimo dogs) and whenever one of them would even start to behave with aggression, we'd roll them onto their back and kind of "sit" on top of them. This is a submissive position for the dog and a dominant position for you. It was recommended to us by a trainer and I don't know if this is the "alpha roll" you are referring to but it's definitely not abusive in the least and is the ONLY thing that has worked with biting behavior in any of the dogs we've had. Telling them "no" is the worst thing you can do. The dog will just laugh at you and continue to be a beast


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## kinsie (Jul 17, 2007)

We have read the sticky posted above for stopping biting but it hasn't worked. Yelping doesn't phase her in the least and we still have to pry her mouth off our hands. 

We are planning on enrolling her in obedience class taught by a guy who trains k9's for the police department, but she's still too young and hasn't had all her vaccinations yet. 

We have had a few doggie play dates with a yorkie and she was relentless with him. It's like she didn't understand that Timmy didn't want to play when she got too rough with him. She'd jump on top of him, bite his face, his neck, his tail... to the point where Timmy would growl a deep growl and snap at Akira and walk away. He's very gentle and submissive so Akira was definitely the alpha dog between them.

I think it may be beneficial for her to have a play date with a bigger not as submissive dog. We ran into her sister at the local PetSmart for a free puppy class. Her sister is bigger by at least 6 lbs and Akira got schooled by her sister. And it seemed to help her with bite inhibition for a few days. 

We got her from a petstore which listed the local breeders name and phone number as well as photos of the dam + sire. We didn't realize until afterwards that this means very little in terms of buying from a petstore vs. a responsible breeder. We have not contacted the breeder though. But from what I've read online about "breeders" selling their puppies to petstores... I don't think we'll get much help there. But I guess it's worth a try.

We have trained her to sit, shake, lie down and leave it. When she's jumping on us we try and make her sit but she doesn't really listen when she's super excited and trying to go after our clothes/hands/toes. 

The alpha roll we tried is the one you speak of. Rolling her on her back and showing her "who's alpha" but that just seems to agitate her more. She comes back at us with more force so we think she thinks it's rough playing. 

We have swapped our pants and hands for her chew toys in the past with pretty good success but it seems to not be working anymore. Yesterday, when she started acting up I immediately went to the kitchen to fill her kong with PB and kibble and gave that to her to focus on. It worked pretty well! 

I know part of this is regular old puppy behavior but occasionally it seems to escalate to an unacceptable level. We'll continue with swapping toys, praising when she chews what she's supposed to, and walking out of the room when she bites hard.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

DO NOT do the Alpha roll unless you have 4 legs, a tail and bark. It can be very dangerous and is a good way to be seriously bitten. The Alpha dog does not roll a subordinate over onto it's back. The lower ranking dog offers the position to the Alpha.

It's very difficult to diagnose and "cure" an unwanted behavior via the internet. If I was you I'd have a professional trainer, preferably one with experience with aggression and your breed, come for an in-home consultation.


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## kinsie (Jul 17, 2007)

we did stop alpha rolling her when we read up on the pros/cons of doing this. my husband and i discussed it and will be continuing with the firm NO's, swapping her toys, giving her treat filled kongs, and walking out/ignoring her behavior when she acts up. 

i think she just needs time to learn and maybe grow out of this phase. 

she has an appt for another round of vaccinations coming up next week. and we're planning on taking her to group obedience class soon. i think being able to take her out on walks will help burn off the pent up energy. or that's my hope anyways. =)


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

> We are planning on enrolling her in obedience class taught by a guy who trains k9's for the police department, but she's still too young and hasn't had all her vaccinations yet.


What you describe is more than normal puppy behavior even during teething. Can't you contact this guy and see if he can come to your home right away to evalute the pup and offer you some tips on how to get her straightened out? 

You need to get an handle on this immediately, not in a few weeks after she's developed a pattern of unwanted behavior. If you don't get a handle on it between now and then she'll be kicked out of puppy class her fiirst day.

Good luck!


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## kinsie (Jul 17, 2007)

We did ask the trainer about in home sessions but his costs were WAY above what we could afford. I think it was $1400 for in home training. We haven't contacted any other trainers though...

I want to say that she's not always this rambunctious with her biting, but it's still something we're trying to dissuade. Especially since since Akitas are known to be aggressive, stubborn and BIG! But she loves all people and meeting other dogs. We're trying to socialize her as much as possible while still keeping her health in mind until those last two rounds of vaccs!


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## sydney-the-cattle-dog (Jan 31, 2007)

Until you can start classes you can try a time-out tecnique my trainer has us use.

1. puppy bites too hard. In a firm voice say "no bite'
2. puppy stops. Praise!
-or-
3. puppy continues despite command. Time-out

Time-out:

Keep a lead on the puppy for this exercise.
-When he bites after the no bite command lead him to a room with a door nearby (bathrooms work great) and shut him inside while keeping a hold of the lead. 
-Wait 5 seconds at first, adding an additional 5 seconds for each additional time out per training session.
-Open door and if he starts back at biting give command again and time-out if he won't stop.

Your puppy should get the idea after a few times isolated in the room that biting = time-out. Even just seconds works wonders. Dogs don't like to be isolated from the pack and will try to figure out what the infraction was so they don't get removed again.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

sydney-the-cattle-dog said:


> 1. puppy bites too hard. In a firm voice say "no bite'
> 2. puppy stops. Praise!
> -or-
> 3. puppy continues despite command. Time-out


That is exactly what I did with Ripley when he was nippy as a pup. Time out for us was baby gated in the kitchen for a minute or two, when everyone else was in the living room. It will take weeks of doing this every time for it to work. Took about a month for us, but he is now not nippy at all.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

kinsie said:


> We have read the sticky posted above for stopping biting but it hasn't worked.


How long have you been practicing? I mentioned that this is not a quick fix and you needed to stick with it. You are not going to train a puppy how to use it's mouth overnight.


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## kinsie (Jul 17, 2007)

we've had her about a month and have tried the high pitched yelp since the day she came home with us and she doesn't respond to the yelp. it doesn't phase her, but i know she's not deaf! =) 

we've also tried the turn and ignore technique and that doesn't phase her either. she will bite with your legs/jeans/ toes whether or not you're ignoring her. it's like she has asperger's syndrome and can't read body language or just doesn't care. 

if we leave the room she just finds something else to chew on (like the rug, or a toy, or a wire). 

the time out method on the lead sounds like something that may work. she doesn't like to be removed from us. and when i have removed her into the laundry room, she'll run out (after she calms down) and will not come after us. we'll continue with this method as well.


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

When your dog bites, you might try scruffing its neck and saying no. My dog wasn't averse to anything, but the neck scruff really did the trick. To do this, you grab the skin on the back of your dogs next and give it a pull/shake and firmly say NO. You shouldn't need to do it hard for your dog to get the point. This is how a mother dog would discipline her pups in a litter. 

It's possible the laundry room is stressing the dog, which could explain the pooping? Maybe try crate training her and crating her somewhere where she can see you (and you her) or put her on a short lead and tie it under something solid like a table leg or a bed post. This will allow you to put her away from you but still allow you to watch her to make sure she's not engaging in other undesirable behaviors while outside your sight. 

Finally, I would strongly suggest a private trainer who will be able to work you both in your home. This could really make the difference in your family/dog harmony. After all, it's doubtful that your dog would manifest these particular problem behaviors in a group class away from home. Find one that charges by the session instead of in a big lump sum. That way you don't pay for more than you need but you're not rushed to finish in a set number of lessons and if you don't like their approach or it's clear their methods aren't working. Call your local shelter or humane society and they may be able to refer one. If you look, you can probably find one for about $50 per hour. As someone who had a "problem dog," I promise you'll find it's worth every penny.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

poohlp said:


> When your dog bites, you might try scruffing its neck and saying no. My dog wasn't averse to anything, but the neck scruff really did the trick. To do this, you grab the skin on the back of your dogs next and give it a pull/shake and firmly say NO. You shouldn't need to do it hard for your dog to get the point. This is how a mother dog would discipline her pups in a litter.


So you advocate bullying your dog? You are not a dog. There is no way on earth that you will ever be able to mimick its mothers behavior - so why try?


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

It's not bullying. It's not even painful. If it were, there is no way in h*** that I would do it or recommend it to others. It works in the exact same way that a properly (not that many people know how to use them such) used choke collar works, i.e., it doesn't choke, it just applies a firm pressure to the back of the dog's neck, which most dogs innately understand as an indication that they are doing something they shouldn't. Some dogs react to it more than others, some couldn't care less - but for those it works on, it can be very effective. Depending on how clever the dog is, you shouldn't have to do it for long as they will learn to associate the no with the scruff and so will respond to the no alone. And of course, the dog should be well rewarded with positive praise once they do what they are supposed to be doing.

I understand that treats and positive reinforcement are the best way to train a dog. I tried it. But the fact is that some dogs, especially those that are bred to be independent and stubborn, require more than treats and praise to train, they also need gentle but stern discipline. 

My dog was more than smart and stubborn enough (and had a good enough nose) to figure out that if there was no treat in my hand, he had no interest in obeying even the simplest command. He was a problem dog in every sense of the word, which almost got him killed when he ran out out of the house and got hit by a car. (luckily he escaped without a scratch, but disappeared for a horrible week before showing up at the door.) But with the help of a great trainer, who my dog LOVED, and some simple training methods, none of which are violent, cruel, bullying or abusive, he has become the best dog ever. I think some of those methods are worth sharing, especially with someone who has tried a lot of different methods that aren't working.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

poohlp said:


> It's not bullying. It's not even painful.


This isn't always true. There's no way we humans can predict or assume what a physical punishment means to the dog. Only the dog can. My dog would rather you kick her and show no worry, but raise my voice and she's emotinally crushed. Some dogs aren't effected by a raised voice, but it's clearly a severe punishment in my dog's mind. 



> which most dogs innately understand as an indication that they are doing something they shouldn't.


Until you meet the dog that finds this to be a game, and continues the misbehavior for the reward, the owners punishment. Or the dog that associates physical punishment with it's owner...not a bonding moment for these dogs. 



> Depending on how clever the dog is, you shouldn't have to do it for long as they will learn to associate the no with the scruff and so will respond to the no alone.


Actually it depends on timing, and whether or not the owner is doing other things to complete understanding of OC (operant and classical) conditioning. Why we have problems with physical punishments is not that it can't be effective, many computerized experiments based on Skinner's theories proves that it can be. However, we humans can never be as accurate or as timely as a computer, thus, to attempt physical corrections is to gamble at ruining the communication, and making the situation worse. 



> I understand that treats and positive reinforcement are the best way to train a dog.


If you're saying purely positive is the best way to train, I'm sorry but this isn't true. From what science has proven the best training methods are binomial, having rewards and consequences. Punishments are very much necessary in dog training. However, they needn't be physical, therefore I think they shouldn't be physical. 



> But the fact is that some dogs, especially those that are bred to be independent and stubborn, require more than treats and praise to train, they also need gentle but stern discipline.


Dogs aren't "independent" and "stubborn". Dogs do what works. If we use human definitions like independent and stubborn, we are only laying down a path that justifies punishments, and when the dog is even more stubborn, more sterner punishments typically follow. This IMO isn't fair to the dog. Doing what works is the mechanism that keeps dogs alive. Without it, they wouldn't be the magnificent being that they are. There's only well applied OC conditioning, or poorly applied OC conditioning. And this is universal regardless od the training method, or breed of dog.



> My dog was more than smart and stubborn enough (and had a good enough nose) to figure out that if there was no treat in my hand, he had no interest in obeying even the simplest command.


Excuse me if this comes out wrong, I'm not claiming anything about your abilities as a dog handler. But, if your dog doesn't respond to the command...your dog doesn't know the command. Why your dog doesn't know the command is more likely in how well training was executed, versus him being smart or stubborn. If you're still giving treats for commands your dog should know...you haven't properly phased them out, or introduced life rewards. When done properly, a behavior like sitting becomes auto-reinforcing as it will predict what will follow. 



> He was a problem dog in every sense of the word, which almost got him killed when he ran out out of the house and got hit by a car.


One day when Elsa was about a year old. I went outside to check on leaking gutters while it rained. I stepped outside without realizing Elsa had followed close behind. I went back inside never knowing she was outside with me. A few minutes later I wonder where my dog was. She was nowhere to be found inside. She couldn't have escaped outside, could she? When I opened the door to look she was sitting and waiting for me to return. My dog isn't smarter than yours. She just happens to want to be with me. And I say this is a reflection of how she was trained, for the most part, without innappropriate or physical punishments. That's not to say she isn't punished, or that I'm purely positive. I'm not. I do punish her when I need to, but I do so with instruction. 

The question you should ask is not why did your dog run out the door that day, but what you could have done to prevent it. My hope is that your trainer proved to you that it was about training, and not that your dog requires physical discipline because of his breed. If so, I'd wonder what kind of certifications your trainer has. But that's another subject for another day. 

Does any of this make sense?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

What ever you do, Don't bite him back! If you think the toe and hand hurt when he bit you, wait until you feel a razor sharp puppy tooth in your nose or eye. OUCH! I am sure once you start classes with him you will learn the skills to stop this. I agree with the increase in exercises. Play games like find the treat etc... Keep his mind working. It is never to early to start basic obedience at home. Good Luck!


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Well, on the topic at hand ( Pooping out of spite) No, your dog is not spiteful.
Would you expect a toddler who is just learning to use the bathroom to not have accidents?? No, 
Your pup is young,
Another thing, they arent born angels. It takes alot of hard work ( persistant at that) and training to get the desired responses out of your dog.
Akita's are very dominant breeds, and MUST be socialized young. At this age the "socialization window" is starting to close ( as my experience with dominant breeds stands)
I agree that the biting issue NEEDs to be addressed immediately, and you really have to pick a technique that you are comfortable with and work on it. There is no quick fix. Nothing you do today will make your pup stop this behaviour by tomorrow. Its going to take a few days, too many different techniques are going to end up confusing your pup more than anything IMO.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/akita/index.cfm


> Temperament
> Alert and responsive, dignified and courageous. Aggressive toward other dogs


Do not let this aggression escalate and please please socialize your pup as soon as possible. The last thing the "Akita fanciers" need is their breed ending up in the spot light with the bullies... No breed deserves this negative image. Akita's are indeed heading there fast.


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

Believe it or not, I don't completely disagree with you. I do not claim to be a trainer, and aside from offering one small suggestion, my advice was to find a good one that would work with the OP in their home to help them find solutions that worked. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> My dog would rather you kick her and show no worry, but raise my voice and she's emotinally crushed. Some dogs aren't effected by a raised voice, but it's clearly a severe punishment in my dog's mind.


As you say, all dogs or different. Even trained, if I raise my voice, my dog will often bark back because it's a game. Likewise, if I did as the OP tried and locked him in room where he can't see me as punishment, he will eat the door to get out (maybe his version of pooping and peeing on the floor?), but if I put him in a crate or short leash him somewhere where he can see me but can't get to me, he will understand he has crossed the line.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Until you meet the dog that finds this to be a game, and continues the misbehavior for the reward, the owners punishment. Or the dog that associates physical punishment with it's owner...not a bonding moment for these dogs.


Which is why I said it doesn't work for all dogs. Obviously, if any technique is having a deleterious effect on their pet, they definitely shouldn't use it - no matter how well it works for someone else. In all training, people should be aware of their pets reactions and be looking for any negative effects. That way they know to shift to something else.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Dogs aren't "independent" and "stubborn". Dogs do what works.


Although I agree that it is misleading to anthropomorphize animals, surely you aren't arguing that dogs don't have distinct personalities, even if completely unrelated to breed? Is that not why many people on here suggest letting a breeder determine which puppy from the litter goes home with which buyer? But even on the subject of breeds, different breeds are bred to bring certain personalities out. Some hunting breeds, like my pointer mix, are bred to be able to cover lots of ground and be comfortable being a good distance from their people as well as making decisions without constant direction. This translates into a certain amount of independence. I know little of sled breeds, but from reading many posts on here, I gather that stubbornness is a breed trait that can make the breed "interesting" to live with as a pet, but may be a life saver in the snow. For other breeds, these are undesirable traits. 

Regardless of breed, the fact that animals aren't being independent or stubborn a purpose, for instance I would never say a dog does something, "out of spite," does not change the fact that dogs with such traits may pose different training challenges than an eager to please lap dog. Of course, I would never say that these traits justify harsh or sterner punishments, only that just as some children learn better taught one way and others another, I think dogs, and any other living thing for that matter, can be expected to do the same. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> Excuse me if this comes out wrong, I'm not claiming anything about your abilities as a dog handler.


It's ok. I'm no trainer and claim no great proficiency. And I'm sure my initial attempts to train my dog weren't the best, while group classes were too distracting for him. Which is why when it became clear that what I had tried wasn't working, I shelled out the extra money for a good personal trainer. It was worth ever penny. We went back to basics and started over from scratch. The trainer assumed my dog knew nothing and before he was expected to do something on command, he had to demonstrate that he knew what the command was. But we never once used treats, just lots of praise and yes some punishment when necessary, mainly a firm no but also an appropriate application of a choke chain when my dog flat out refused to do what he knew he was supposed to and an occasional neck scruff when the dog had no collar on, but only once the dog had repeatedly demonstrated that he knew what he was supposed to be doing. It was a wholly positive experience for me, my dog and my boyfriend and my dog was trained in record time. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> My dog isn't smarter than yours. She just happens to want to be with me.


LOL. Half of the training a did with my dog was detaching him from my hip - he would get physically distressed and even attempt to fight with my boyfriend he tried to make him go into a room away from me. But he wasn't with me that day. He was with my dad (who he is almost as attached to as me) and squeezed past him out the door because he wanted to play his favorite inappropriate game - Chase Me Around the Street! And BTW, that was before I did the training that ultimately worked. Now I can let him walk out with me to do chores and he won't run anywhere because he knows better and if for some reason he did, he has a reliable recall.


> Curbside Prophet said:
> 
> 
> > My hope is that your trainer proved to you that it was about training, and not that your dog requires physical discipline because of his breed.
> ...


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

As to the original question, no, your 11 week old Akita puppy is not pooping in the laundry room out of spite. More likely is is the stress of being separated from you.
As to the biting problems, assuming that you have tried these methods each adn every one for long enough to find out that they don't work as oppposed to all of them in the space of a week, then do get professional help. And anyone who tells you to roll or bite your dog does should be ignored.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

poohlp said:


> Although I agree that it is misleading to anthropomorphize animals, surely you aren't arguing that dogs don't have distinct personalities, even if completely unrelated to breed? Is that not why many people on here suggest letting a breeder determine which puppy from the litter goes home with which buyer? But even on the subject of breeds, different breeds are bred to bring certain personalities out. Some hunting breeds, like my pointer mix, are bred to be able to cover lots of ground and be comfortable being a good distance from their people as well as making decisions without constant direction. This translates into a certain amount of independence. I know little of sled breeds, but from reading many posts on here, I gather that stubbornness is a breed trait that can make the breed "interesting" to live with as a pet, but may be a life saver in the snow. For other breeds, these are undesirable traits.


Actually, if you get right down to it, yes, it can be argued that dogs don't have distinct personalities. The concept itself is defined in human terms. All we can scientifically qualify are the behaviors the dog exhibits. And this is where including adjectives like "stubborn" and "independent" can lead one to incorrect observations, and possibly incorrect training methods. I'm certainly not saying it's easy to exclude our emotional viewpoint, but the best trainers in the world IMO, do exactly that. 



> my dog was trained in record time.


Record time would be relative, correct? What do you define as successful training? The fact that you know how to get your dog to behave with the punishments your trainer showed you? 

IMO, successfully delivering punishments, and getting the behavior you want, in the time span acceptable to you, isn't the complete picture. What I want in my training is zero punishments. I can leash jerk my dog too on our daily walks, but if I leash jerk her 10 times on a walk, and a month later I'm still leash jerking her 10 times on a walk, I'm sorry but the training isn't working. I'm not saying this is your experience, but for those who wonder about a certain technique, quantify the punishments. If the punishments don't decrease over time, clearly the punishment isn't working.


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

As I said, I don't disagree with you as much as you think. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> What do you define as successful training? The fact that you know how to get your dog to behave with the punishments your trainer showed you?


No, success is defined as the fact that the corrections are no longer necessary to get the desired behavior or prevent undesirable behavior. The fact that my dog knows what is expected and if he doesn't do it, a firm no and repetition of a known command is sufficient to get him to do it or stop doing what he shouldn't be doing. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> For those who wonder about a certain technique, quantify the punishments. If the punishments don't decrease over time, clearly the punishment isn't working.


Obviously. I agree with you 100%. Is not not having to give a correction always the ultimate goal of training?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

poohlp said:


> Is not not having to give a correction always the ultimate goal of training?


With what I've seen come through this forum, I often wonder if it is.


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