# Training dog who doesn't take treats outside



## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Hello, as I already described in my introductory thread, we just adopted a 3yo rescue German Shorthaired Pointer last weekend. I'm trying to get this whole training thing down right from the start but feel a bit overwhelmed by the sheer amount of things to train her for. She's generally a very sweet dog, no aggression, super friendly, loves people, toys etc.

As a bird dog, she's extremely overstimulated outside and doesn't pay attention to anything other than hunting birds. I can get her to take a deli meat treat outside in our yeard for going potty and have been successful at a few "come heeere" with her when she was a few feet away. But once we leave the house, it's over, she doesn't even take the deli meat once we try to walk her to the park etc.

Inside the house, she literally is glued to my hips and focuses on me 24/7. I have a hard time actually teaching her "watch me" because she literally watches me 99% of the time. But outside, polar opposite. 

My biggest issue right now is the leash pulling since it inhibits our ability to take her out. We practice inside and she's 100% focused on me and we take one step outside and it all turns the exact opposite. 

I'm concerned that taking her out to satisfy her high exercise needs will reinforce her pulling. If we diligently practice the stop and retreat method, we'd get less than a block in half an hour. 

1. How do you exercise a dog that pulls on the leash? She doesn't play with her toys in the yard for more than 2min, only circles the tree for birds. So I feel like I have no way of exercising her. We've had friends with very friendly dogs come over. She does not play with them, only focuses on her tree and the birds. So I feel like the dog park is a waste of time. Also, it would take me 2h to get there with the stop and retreat method, even though it's only about 3-4 blocks away. I don't see any improvement with her so far on the pulling. She's so extremely focused on hunting birds, if you make her turn around she'll just stare and pull in the other direction. 

2. How do you teach "watch me" to a dog that watches you all the time because she's so focused on you inside? I feel like she doesn't get what I'm rewarding her for. 

3. I feel like she should have "watch me" down before the leash training since it's such a prerequisite for attention. But then do I just not walk her until she has that down? I'm confused as to how people fit this all under the umbrella of "the dog needs to exercise every day."

Again, she is 100% focused on me inside the house and 100% focused on anything but me outside. 

Any tips are appreciated.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Okay so a couple of things;

-Even if you end up just walking a small area, a 60min start-stop-start-stop walk is still an hour walk, it doesn't matte so much that you don't actually -go- anywhere.

-Have you looked into flirt poles? That may be a good option to exercise in your yard. 

-I would take her on leash to the least interesting outside space you have (maybe your backyard) and just sit there and be boring until she looks at you like "Hey what gives? What cant I go anywhere?" and then jackpot the heck out of her with super special yummy treats and have a party. She loses focus? Become boring again until she checks in then throw another party about it. Don't ask for any behaviours like a sit or anything, just reward her for choosing to pay attention to you. Don't verbally cue her, just wait her out until she does it on her own.

-Look into urban mushing type sports. This can be a positive outlet for her pulling/energy.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

ireth0 said:


> Okay so a couple of things;
> 
> -Even if you end up just walking a small area, a 60min start-stop-start-stop walk is still an hour walk, it doesn't matte so much that you don't actually -go- anywhere.
> 
> ...


Thanks. These are great tips. We have a Home Depot right by our house. I'll go there this week and build a flirt pole. I think she might enjoy that with her duckie on it.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Just tried the attention thing in the yard. I waited 30min, not once did she look at me, only birds or those that she imagines up in the canopies. lol. 
I think she gets her satisfaction from watching the birds alone, and I've seen her forever stare at canopies that had not a single bird in them just in case one might show up.
Atlanta is one of the most densely forested urban areas in the US. No idea how I'm going to find an outdoor spot that is "boring" to her that doesn't have a single bird.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

kiki272 said:


> Inside the house, she literally is glued to my hips and focuses on me 24/7. I have a hard time actually teaching her "watch me" because she literally watches me 99% of the time. But outside, polar opposite.


Try breaking this down into much smaller steps.

- have the dog on a leash, inside.
- MARK (with a verbal marker such as "yes") and reward for attention. I wouldn't use a cue to elicit attention, personally, I'd just wait for her to offer eye contact (eventually sustained eye contact) without any prompting.
- practice throughout your house
- then, near the front door
- gradually begin to open the door, only a crack at first, and continue to mark and reward for sustained eye contact.
- progress to opening the door fully with sustained attention
- then on the porch
- then on the front walkway
- then on the public sidewalk
- etc

Take each phase one step at a time, over the course of hours or even a few days perhaps. Release and include lots of play at the successful completion of each step.
Which brings me to the second point. Use your release to allow the dog some liberty to do what he wants to do - look at birds - as a life reward for doing what you want to do, first.

You may also benefit from employing something like this when it comes time to teach heeling or loose leash walking w / movement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5il8ym0ymY


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

petpeeve said:


> Try breaking this down into much smaller steps.
> 
> - have the dog on a leash, inside.
> - MARK (with a verbal marker such as "yes") and reward for attention. I wouldn't use a cue to elicit attention, personally, I'd just wait for her to offer eye contact (eventually sustained eye contact) without any prompting.
> ...


Thanks. I think I do need to take that step back between outside and inside. She basically does this here wonderfully, fully focused on me. 


petpeeve said:


> - have the dog on a leash, inside.
> - MARK (with a verbal marker such as "yes") and reward for attention. I wouldn't use a cue to elicit attention, personally, I'd just wait for her to offer eye contact (eventually sustained eye contact) without any prompting.
> - practice throughout your house
> - then, near the front door


But once we step outside, it's over, so I clearly need to focus on the in-between. I'll start practicing the steps between inside and outside today.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Take it easy. You just adopted an intense high energy dog a few days ago. She may be so birdy she isn't a good dog for a casual dog owner and that's why she landed in rescue. She very likely is so birdy now just because she is stressed out of her mind in her new home. Along with the other great advice you may want to look into a new hobby, hunt training. If she has an outlet for her instincts she may content herself with that. A member here with a very sniffy spaniel found that dog is happy doing nosework, I've talked to people with Border Collies that settled down after taking herding lessons and so on.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Kathyy said:


> Take it easy. You just adopted an intense high energy dog a few days ago. She may be so birdy she isn't a good dog for a casual dog owner and that's why she landed in rescue. She very likely is so birdy now just because she is stressed out of her mind in her new home. Along with the other great advice you may want to look into a new hobby, hunt training. If she has an outlet for her instincts she may content herself with that. A member here with a very sniffy spaniel found that dog is happy doing nosework, I've talked to people with Border Collies that settled down after taking herding lessons and so on.


Thanks, some form of hobby like that has definitely been on my list. Is there a way to do hunting training without killing anything? I don't hunt and know absolutely nothing about it. She is not sniffy, everything with her is visual but that might also be a "new home" thing.
We've been practicing attention while on the leash in the house and I've "caught" her 2-3 times looking at me with the door open, so yay, but it's definitely a waiting game. I'll just keep doing it every day and we'll hopefully make it out on the front porch next week or so.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree with PetPeeve and Kathyy. You'll very likely need to break down training into much smaller steps and build success slowly; at the same time, she's very new to you and will need time to settle in.

Here's some info on AKC field trials: http://www.akc.org/events/field-trials/pointing-breeds/

You might give her some time to settle in, try a few different things (nose work, rally, disc, agility, etc.) before deciding on something to focus on.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

thanks again for the tip with the flirt pole. We built one and tied her favorite squeaking duck on it. She goes bonkers over it and chases it round after round in the yard. 
She also did a lot better on the leash today and even started to play and chase around with other dogs at the dog park. Until now, she's mostly been interested in birds when we go there. So overall, she's relaxing more and focusing a bit less on birds and more on other things. She's also eating better, which is important as she's still very skinny and needs to put on a few pounds.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Little update here: we're in week 4 now with her and I'd say things have actually partially worsened due to her unfolding her personality more and more. 

Challenge remains - super high energy dog that pulls on leash. Exercising her in yard simply doesn't work, even with the flirt pole. She'll chase a toy for 5min but that's it. She needs to consistently get at least 1h of serious exercise every day in order to not go crazy. 

So we continue with the same issue: walk/run the dog and she gets to pull to at least a good portion of that time or not exercise her enough, and I am seriously worried about what will happen if she doesn't get enough exercise. Right now she isn't destructive and really good in the house and I'd hate to trade that in. 

We tried the easy walk harness and it does curb her pulling to an extent but also chafes her shoulders because she still does pull a bit. So I stopped using it yesterday because I can tell she'll be without hair on her shoulders in 2 weeks otherwise. I know from the foster mom that gentle leader was a bust and she ended up with a 1 inch dent in her face because she pulled on it. 

We're practicing the attention thing on leash every day inside the house and then on the porch. We cannot do the open door practice anymore because the one time we tried that it overloaded our AC (we live in 90+ degree weather) and we had no AC for a day. Never again. So it's either inside or on porch. Attention drops from 100% to maybe 10% once we're on porch and she often quickly stops taking treats there. Once we're off the front porch, she pays almost Zero attention to me and refuses treats 100%. 

We tried for a few days to prioritize good walking over length of the walk and this isn't working for us. She simply does not get enough exercise that way and has now also started to put on the brakes as soon as we reach the top of our street on the way home. She's really letting me know when the walk is too short. She even does this now after a 45min run. So less exercise is probably going to reinforce that. 

Is there anyone here who has mastered a high energy dog like her with this challenging situation where you have to weigh exercise over proper leash walking?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

One of my dogs is similar to her. He will still usually take treats, but it doesn't mean I have his attention or his brain - he snatches it and continues doing what he was doing. Some days are better than others, depending on his mood and how many critters were out the day before. I typically walk him on a prong so he can't drag me down the street. Once he's calmed down we work on LLW in a collar. 

Keep in mind that by exercising more you can build an athlete who needs that much exercise. People who say "I have to run my dog for 2 hours a day!" have generally created a dog who needs that. If she's calm in the house, then I don't think you *need* to be exercising her as much as you think. Most dogs have way more stamina than we do and exercising to exhaustion can't really be your goal. She will always be more fit than you and able to go further. Exercise as much as you can, in the way you can (even if that means working on LLW) and that's it.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

elrohwen said:


> Keep in mind that by exercising more you can build an athlete who needs that much exercise. People who say "I have to run my dog for 2 hours a day!" have generally created a dog who needs that. If she's calm in the house, then I don't think you *need* to be exercising her as much as you think. Most dogs have way more stamina than we do and exercising to exhaustion can't really be your goal. She will always be more fit than you and able to go further. Exercise as much as you can, in the way you can (even if that means working on LLW) and that's it.


That's interesting, I haven't looked at it from that perspective. She's definitely already an athlete. She's pure muscle, can easily jump 4-5 ft from sitting like a springbok. I am very hesitant to exercise her less because she's been such a good dog in the house and I know what these breeds can get into in terms of destructive behavior when not exercised enough. Just from a breed perspective, she needs a good hour of exercise (as in running) every day and we're providing that at the moment, not more. That's the minimum from what I can tell from GSP breed info sites.

I'm also reluctant to try the prong collar, even though I know the foster tried it, since she's such a sensitive dog. The way she bolts for birds, she might seriously injure herself with that. She flipped 180 degrees on her back a few times this week on the easy walk harness because she suddenly makes a run for the birds and the harness pulls her legs out from underneath her.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kiki272 said:


> That's interesting, I haven't looked at it from that perspective. She's definitely already an athlete. She's pure muscle, can easily jump 4-5 ft from sitting like a springbok. I am very hesitant to exercise her less because she's been such a good dog in the house and I know what these breeds can get into in terms of destructive behavior when not exercised enough. Just from a breed perspective, she needs a good hour of exercise (as in running) every day and we're providing that at the moment, not more. That's the minimum from what I can tell from GSP breed info sites.


You can't read breed descriptions so literally. Pretty much any description for a high energy dog is going to say 1+ hour, but that doesn't mean you must hit that number or else your dog turns into a pumpkin. ;-) One dog might need 30min, one might need 2 hours, and many might need to be taught to settle in the house. If you give her as much exercise as you can in a way that doesn't drive you crazy (being dragged down the street for an hour probably isn't fun for you), then teach her to settle in the house. Learning to settle is very much a skill for many dogs, though it sounds like she's fine already. 



> I'm also reluctant to try the prong collar, even though I know the foster tried it, since she's such a sensitive dog. The way she bolts for birds, she might seriously injure herself with that. She flipped 180 degrees on her back a few times this week on the easy walk harness because she suddenly makes a run for the birds and the harness pulls her legs out from underneath her.


Dogs aren't that likely to hurt themselves on prong collars. FOr a dog who really pulls, a regular collar is going to cause more harm to their neck than a prong. You also can't give them so much leash that they can lunge that hard and hurt themselves. If she's flipping over by lunging into the Easy Walk, you've given her too much lead. For an unpredictable dog, keep long lines to a rear clip harness so they won't hurt themselves.


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## esuastegui (Aug 8, 2016)

Kathyy said:


> Take it easy. You just adopted an intense high energy dog a few days ago. She may be so birdy she isn't a good dog for a casual dog owner and that's why she landed in rescue. She very likely is so birdy now just because she is stressed out of her mind in her new home. Along with the other great advice you may want to look into a new hobby, hunt training. If she has an outlet for her instincts she may content herself with that. A member here with a very sniffy spaniel found that dog is happy doing nosework, I've talked to people with Border Collies that settled down after taking herding lessons and so on.


I like this advice. For a positive (non-destructive or endangering) instinct like this one, you have to build on it rather than discourage it. It's like adopting a teenager that loves art and trying to turn them into an accountant. You may succeed, but happiness will not be the byproduct. And think how great it would be to explore the great outdoors with a dog so keen to notice its very nuance. Think what you would learn.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kiki272 said:


> Thanks, some form of hobby like that has definitely been on my list. Is there a way to do hunting training without killing anything? I don't hunt and know absolutely nothing about it. She is not sniffy, everything with her is visual but that might also be a "new home" thing.
> We've been practicing attention while on the leash in the house and I've "caught" her 2-3 times looking at me with the door open, so yay, but it's definitely a waiting game. I'll just keep doing it every day and we'll hopefully make it out on the front porch next week or so.


I'm the one who does nosework with my spaniel and that's definitely something you can do! Even if she's not super sniffy, it might provide some of that searching and finding thing that she loves. For my birdy dog who is more visual, we mostly use toys. A disc is kind of a pseudo flying bird for her and very high reward.

Actual hunt training is tough. You need someone to work with you, and you'll need dead birds in your freezer. Haha. I've gone back and forth on it a bunch of times and always decide it's not for me. For pointers it can be fairly instinctual - let them go and find birds, then fine tune the point. Retriever training tends to take a lot more impulse control and retrieving, but I don't know if pointer people do that same foundation or not. It might be worth looking around for an instructor and at least going for an evaluation.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Thanks for all the comments. I'll give the prong collar a try. Is it a good approach to do one prong collar walk to get her exercise in the morning and then do shorter 1-2 shorter 20min walks as training walks on a regular collar? 
I don't want to just rely on her being uncomfortable with the prong collar but rather change her underlying behavior. 

I think she might be more sniffy than I initially thought. The birds aren't that frequent in the yard anymore as the fruit trees are out of fruit, so now she's taken up sniffing, digging and chasing after the rats instead. Obviously, now I have a digging problem.....

What level of obedience is required for these agility or nose work classes? Would you recommend trying something like that even if we're light years away from general obedience?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's basically how I use the prong. If we need to get energy out without him dragging me, I'll put it on. If he's calmer and able to be a normal dog, we'll go to flat collar and work on LLW. And if he's in a harness he's allowed to pull. Not drag me like he's in a weight pull competition, but I'm not going to require LLW.

Nosework requires zero obedience. Many trainers will even call it a no obedience zone. The dogs are leading the activity while you hang back and learn to read them (and set up search situations that push their abilities, or improve their confidence, etc). I think dogs really love that they are in charge of where you go. And for dogs who always seem to be searching for something, I think it gives them something to focus on and a feeling that they've found what they were looking for. I know my dog is much more calm and focused and less frantic when he's doing nosework. Not that it necessarily fixed his craziness in all other areas of life, but I do feel like it's very fulfilling for him. While other dogs in our class did it because that's what their handler wanted, it was clear that it was really his thing.

Agility requires more. Some basic classes require obedience first, or good off leash skills. Others will take you as you are and work on what you need. So check out agility places in your area and ask if they think you'll be successful in the type of class they run.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

elrohwen said:


> I think dogs really love that they are in charge of where you go.


 I had to laugh about this one. That's precisely why we're having pulling issues ;-). I do hope nose work could help her get some wins, because, let's be honest, she doesn't get any wins with the birdies. They're too fast for her. I know her hunting is partially self-rewarding but I think she might enjoy a win here and there. Sometimes it's almost comically sad to see her go for all those birds and never get one.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I think everyone here has some great advice... maybe something else to think about is looking up a good gun dog trainer in your area. I'm not far from Atlanta and know of a few around... Maybe just call a few folks and pick their brains. Some few may not want to deal with anyone that doesn't actually intend to hunt with their dogs, but there are some very good trainers in the area that are used to working with the energy that a GSP has, and could help with learning how to focus that energy to suit your lifestyle.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

So, we got a prong collar yesterday and when I used it on her, she stopped pulling. The thing still terrifies me the way it digs into her neck. She doesn't exactly walk next to me but I'd call it a relaxed leash. 

My husband went for a walk with her with the prong collar this morning and had a rather not so great experience. On the way home, right around where she usually starts to put the brakes on, she laid down in the middle of a 4-way intersection when crossing the street. She refused to get up, and because she was wearing the prong collar my husband couldn't just pull her. So he had to go and literally pick her up and carry her across the intersection to avoid getting hit by traffic as the light was turning. 

So I guess, now we also have a refusing to walk home issue that's getting worse with each walk. Awesome.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

I don't know guys, I feel like this prong collar has made the entire situation worse. I ran her with it yesterday and she has a tendency to make very sudden stops for birds and yelped out in pain several times because of that. At the same time, when I walk her at normal pace, she starts to pull more and more on the collar despite it digging into her neck. 
Now, and I think this is a direct result of using these collars and harnesses, her pulling on the regular collar has even worsened.

I did a training walk last night and OMG she almost crushed my hand bones. I swear we stopped 150 times in 30min. And what she does now is just turn 180 on her heel when I stop. So she's figured out that we get moving once she turns back towards me and the leash loosens but the basically now just does a super sharp turn around herself and then throws herself right back in it.

Is this how she's supposed to do it? Is this a step in the right direction or have I screwed up the training?

I feel like we've lost complete control of this situation now. My husband just came back from a run and said it was a complete disaster. He tried to run her on the normal collar because he's so afraid of the prong collar and her hurting herself. She wouldn't even run with him and just jumped and pulled him into the bushes the entire time.

I'm at my wit's end.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

If the collar isn't working for her, don't use it. I think you should take Fenzi's engagement course. I have a private lesson client who, no joke, sounds exactly like your dog. Young pointer mix (I suspect based on structure and personality), boundless energy, great focus and loves treats inside, won't take any treats outside, likes toys and will somewhat chase them but zoom past in distraction, the moment she's out the door it's like the owner doesn't exist and she zips from one end of the leash to the other. Walks are hard for the owner and doubly so because her dog is dog reactive. Before ever contacting us, the owner tried tiring out her dog and did serious hiking, running, etc. with her dog every day. Lo and behold, that only made her dog more amped up. This dog has a pretty good foundation of basic training and will sit at doors, and even sit outside if asked.... But you can tell her brain isn't there.

First three lessons, I observed my coworker with this client. They were working on BAT for the dog reactivity. BAT is what the dog needs, but the three lessons had zero effect because the dog couldn't focus enough to learn.

Months later, we recently started a series of three lessons with me and I started her on Fenzi style engagement. After the first lesson, my client had trouble transitioning outside. She told me that even inside, with the door open, it was very hard to get her dog to focus on her. We are between lesson 2 and 3 and I just got an email from my client stating "It's working!", even in their immediate outdoor area. The road ahead is long, but even the change in the dog from the first and second lesson were huge. I also threw in a healthy dose of Premack because I know that at the end of the day, this dog just wants to GO.

I would strongly recommend taking the course because you'd be able to SEE what it is. It is simple yet subtly hard. Yeah, it's "focus" from your dog, but not asking your dog to do it. And there are little details that matter, like how you reward and how you move.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

For the pulling issue, the dilemma is she is so aroused outside that I think she is over threshold and can't 'learn' to loose leash walk in her current state. I would find a management tool that is bearable for you both and take walks that way. If she is able to train and you can work on LLW, great. But if she is all over the place, the management tool will ease the pulling for you at least. So you've tried prong collars to no good effect.... Have you tried a front clip harness? I am hesitant to recommend head halters because if she lunges and hits the end of the leash hard, it could twist her head. But on a shorter leash and with good leash handling, a head halter might work (my client's dog is on a head halter and despite everything I've just said about this dog, she does well with this tool). 

But still, I think the engagement outside is most important.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Definitely agree about ditching the prong if it's not working. Sometimes it helps, and sometimes it doesn't, but you definitely don't want her to get bad associations with walking because of it

ETA: Also great advice from Canyx on the Engagement class, and on finding a management tool that works for you. It won't be perfect and she'll probably still pull, but she's not in a state to learn LLW right now.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Canyx said:


> For the pulling issue, the dilemma is she is so aroused outside that I think she is over threshold and can't 'learn' to loose leash walk in her current state. I would find a management tool that is bearable for you both and take walks that way. If she is able to train and you can work on LLW, great. But if she is all over the place, the management tool will ease the pulling for you at least. So you've tried prong collars to no good effect.... Have you tried a front clip harness? I am hesitant to recommend head halters because if she lunges and hits the end of the leash hard, it could twist her head. But on a shorter leash and with good leash handling, a head halter might work (my client's dog is on a head halter and despite everything I've just said about this dog, she does well with this tool).
> 
> But still, I think the engagement outside is most important.


Thank you so much for your insights here and in the post above, I really appreciate it. That dog does sound a lot like ours. 

Regarding this Fenzi training. I tried finding something like this here in Atlanta but google didn't spit anything out. Am I blind and should be looking for something other than "fenzi dog training Atlanta?"

Regarding management tools: we've tried the easy walk harness with the front clip. Several reasons why we have stopped for now: it chafes her shoulders because she still throws herself into it; that's also why it's always twisted to one side. In favor for a) not letting her pull and b) not letting her run around without fur on her shoulders, we stopped using it last weekend and then tried the prong collar. 

The foster mom said she had tried the head halter (gentle leader) and that she pulled so hard on it that it left a 1 inch dent in her face. So I don't think we need to try that one. 

I think that leaves with zero other options for her. 

As someone who seems to know dog behavior, do you really think we could ditch some of the jogging and still give her enough exercise? We currently run 2-3 miles (~45min) with her 4-5 times a week, usually in the morning when it isn't so hot yet. Half the time, we take the park route where we stop at the dog park for 15min; there, she mostly just looks for birds and maybe sniffs a few butts, but hardly any chasing or playing there. 
So if we basically cut most of the running, we'd have a 45min walk in the morning, 15-20min at lunch, 45min in the evening. Plus yard time whenever we work in the yard on the weekends. If we make these walks all training walks to not let her pull, we'd basically be circling the same 3-4 blocks. Fine for me but I am wondering if that is enough for her. 

Just seeing her on the non-running days makes me afraid of what'll happen. She basically bounces off the wall by 9pm.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

kiki272 said:


> Regarding this Fenzi training. I tried finding something like this here in Atlanta but google didn't spit anything out. Am I blind and should be looking for something other than "fenzi dog training Atlanta?"


Fenzi Dog Sports Academy is an online school.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I think the physical exercise is important but it doesn't need to come in the form of a run. You mentioned she loves the flirt pole in the yard. So using the yard for high impact exercise (tug, flirt pole, fetch, etc.) to get most of the energy out is great. It doesn't mean never walk or hike her... But don't feel pigeon holed into *taking her OUT*, you know? In terms of getting the energy out, I find that mental stimulation does more to tire out a dog than physical exercise. I see time and time again people with high energy dogs try to 'tire out' their dogs with mindless activities like jogging, and all it does is condition the dog to want more. 

In your home, you can try teaching her tricks or even setting up a little obstacle course in your yard. Have her jump over things, find things, play shaping game (look up '101 Things To Do With a Box').

And then also reward for being calm inside and outside, if she is able to do that. Look up 'sitting on the dog' which is basically keeping your dog on a short leash and calmly praising her for being calm and relaxed.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Thanks. I was hoping for more of an in-person training. I'm pretty insecure about my abilities to read and understand her and don't think an online course offers enough immediate feedback for me. But I'll consider it down the road.

She does love that duckie on the flirt pole but even loses interest in that after a few minutes. Everything else doesn't last more than mere seconds, very little interest in balls. Everything gets dropped immediately for hunting, digging etc.

I've tried one mental game with her (cups) but since she doesn't even know sit/stay, it was hard to get her to sit still. Anything that requires her to sit, down or come is far out of reach right now. 

I basically wake up every morning overwhelmed by all of the training she needs. LLW, sit/stay, down, leave it, drop, off, come, stay quiet,.... I never feel like there's enough hours in the day to get it in. I get LLW in every day but maybe 1 or 2 of the others and that's it. 

I'm probably more exhausted by all the training than she is. It just seems really overwhelming and I appreciate all of the nice comments but I don't see how we can do any kind of other exercises or lessons other than the most basic stuff at the moment.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Adding to what you said... There's only so much you can get from an internet forum. I think you have a lot of pointers for what to look for. But beyond this I'd suggest working with a reputable trainer in person. I understand time and finances can be an issue. For a lot of people they are. I work in a shelter so I see the end results of people who are overwhelmed by their dogs and without resources. Not saying that's you. But just saying, find help if you can. It's not a good thing for you or your dog if you wake up already feeling overwhelmed.

Do keep in mind that training sessions are best when they're short and sweet. You can work on all the things you mentioned in two 15 minute sessions a day. And just 15-30 minutes of training broken up into 1-10 minute chunks will do wonders. Don't think you need to drill behaviors. Don't think she needs to make monumental progress in everything each day. And it's okay to not work on everything every day either. I never tell my clients, even those with young dogs, high energy dogs, or serious issues, "Okay you need to REALLY work on this." I tell them, "If you can practice 15 minutes a day and then manage to make sure the unwanted behavior doesn't occur, that's fine!" The more short training sessions the better, but also quit while you're ahead.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

I know. You're right. This week has been particularly bad because she's had diarrhea so I've spent half my time with her cleaning up poop and watching her in case she needs to go outside, plus sleep deprivation from having to take her out in the middle of the night. The rest of my week was filled with job interviews and preparation time for those so I haven't done jack with her since Tuesday other than LLW. My husband doesn't participate in training, at least not without putting up a fight and needing to be asked 5 times, and that's the other issue we have in this situation. 

We definitely have the means to pay for a trainer, it's more the issue that my husband would consider that frivolous spending and I'd never hear the end of it. So it's kind of all on me.

This all sort of came together yesterday, hence my frustration level.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My advice here is to do the short training sessions and exercise and to basically work on what you can or feel like a given day and - Pretty much plan to see where she is 3 months out. I think once things start clicking into place it'll all come together fast, but if you can put pressure off for a bit and get it off you and the dog you'll both be much happier.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

If you have the money to spend on a trainer, do it. Tell your husband that it's something that you need to make life with this dog doable. He'll get over it, I promise!

Find a good positive training school and sign up for beginner obedience classes. You may want to look into private lessons too, but those are significantly more expensive. I think in person training help would do wonders. And at the very least you'll be around other dogs and owners once a week which is great for two reasons - 1. it will really tire out your dog. My high energy dog is busy busy busy even with walks and playing fetch in the house all day, but one hour long training class and she's wiped. 2. You'll see that everybody else struggles with their dogs too, especially in the early stages. And then you'll see how much progress they make. It will really make you feel like you're not alone.


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## Nature (Dec 1, 2015)

Try using a Prong collar. Just make sure it's fitted properly (high on the neck).
It's what I use when I walk dogs that never got taught how to walk properly on a leash.

Watch some Youtube videos on how to properly use the Prong collar.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Nature said:


> Try using a Prong collar. Just make sure it's fitted properly (high on the neck).
> It's what I use when I walk dogs that never got taught how to walk properly on a leash.
> 
> Watch some Youtube videos on how to properly use the Prong collar.


The OP has tried a prong and it didn't go well


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## Nature (Dec 1, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> The OP has tried a prong and it didn't go well


Then they should read some good dog training books or better yet go to a No Food/treat dog trainer.


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## craftyfaith (Jun 22, 2016)

I am in the process of training my 11 month puppy to do polite leash walking. I've made a lot of progress in the past month with him. Our starting point is that he would lunge to the end of the line every single step and then get stuck and take forever to put slack back in the leash. He was so distracted that as soon as I got about 20 feet from my front door he couldn't take treats. For a long time I basically just took him to a little off leash park so I wouldn't have to deal with walking him but a recent episode of oral warts has forced me to figure out the leash walking. So far my approach has been a two pronged approach. I did use a front clip harness. I'm pretty sure that it would work with a back clip harness though. Maybe just slightly slower. I've switched to using a back clip part of the time and it seems to carryover. 
1. To start I did the stand like a tree approach. I took him on 20-30 minute walks where I would walk forward for no pulling and pause for pulling. I also clicked and treated for any eye contact. I used very high reward treats (cooked chicken). I figured out that it was easier for him to focus on me when he had been over the ground before so I mostly walked in circles around the block for the first week. Then I started venturing further afield. I did 2 training sessions a day like this. At first he wouldn't take treats at all but as he got used to it he started being able to accept treats. 
2. I worked on a relaxed heel first inside my house and then in the front and back yard. I did this both on leash and off. 
3. I'm now at a point where I'm starting to put the two behaviors together. I'd say right now he's heeling maybe 1/4 of the walk. 

He's not perfect. He still bolts after squirrels but he rarely hits the end of the leash otherwise and when he does it's usually very gentle and he turns back towards me. I think the thing that has gotten me through this was being very very consistent about never letting him pull. We're currently walking 2-2.5 miles at a time and it's actually pleasant.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Nature said:


> Then they should read some good dog training books or better yet go to a No Food/treat dog trainer.


Ever consider that the OP might not want to train her dog using fear and intimidation? Her dog sounds like she might be sensitive to corrections. 
Yeah, if she shuts down her dog the dog won't pull anymore. And again (because I feel like this discussion is going to happen yet again), I'm not against corrections as a general rule. But a person who is completely against food and treats... Probably is unwilling to figure out what motivates a dog and is working primarily on punishing a dog for unwanted behavior and not-punishing when the dog is acting desirably. It's all, "do what I want or there are consequences." Whereas everyone else here is hovering around "how do get get this dog to WANT to do what I want?"


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

And Nature, have you ever owned a dog? I know you have two cats and have been volunteering at a shelter for 8 years (I hope they didn't prescribe prong collars to stressed shelter dogs!), and hope to get a shelter dog one day and teach it tricks and obedience...

Well as someone who has worked in a shelter on the floor, and is a full time trainer at a shelter, and has a dog with a TDCH (champion trick dog)... What credentials do you have that make you so confident that the solution to this owner's problem is to seek out a trainer whose only qualifications that matter to you are: uses a prong, and no treats/food? 

Looking at your other threads, what nutrition expertise do you have that backs up "...The only natural and truly healthy dog food is raw meat. There are many resources on the raw meat diet on the internet. Raw chicken and Beef are the best for a dog." If you speak in extremes, especially without experience, you are spreading misinformation. And I used to be a butcher and fed my dog a balanced raw diet, so I'm not speaking out against raw here.

You write in another thread, "Pure breed dogs are more expensive and have a lot more health problems than Mixed breeds." Again, a catch all statement. What experience do you have with any range of shelter dogs or dogs from reputable (or unreputable) breeders? I currently have a rescued mutt and am on the waitlist for a purebred dog from an ethical breeder, so I'm not even trying to argue pure vs mutt here...

I am not trying to derail this thread with other topics. But I just want the OP to know where the expertise behind your recommendation comes from, Nature, before he/she follows through. *" go to a No Food/treat dog trainer"* is a pretty serious recommendation. And I'm not going to say it won't work. But in my line of work I have seen very, very bad results from these kinds of trainers, everything from level 4 bites, anxiety, submissive urination, increased reactivity, and a whole slew of other things. Just two days ago, a _9 week_ old ACD pup was signed up for private lessons with us because the previous 'trainer' that worked with the puppy was beating the puppy over the head until it stopped nipping. A self certified 'trainer.' The puppy now submissive pees when anyone is standing towards it, among other things. And yes, this was not a good trainer or A trainer, by most people's books. But this person would probably advertise as a "no food/treat dog trainer." So more specifics are needed to find the right trainer fitting this category, I think.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Amen Canyx.

I think it would be nearly impossible to find ANY talented pet trainer who won't use food. It's a pointless omission. Food can get so many behaviors started that intentionally removing it from the toolbox indicates an old school zealot who cares more about "ego" or "method" than about dogs and results.

I accidently enrolled in a "positive reinforcement" class that banned the use of food. I walked out before class started.

Oh, and I have trained dogs without the use of food. (I'm old.) They were wonderful, reliable dogs. I know it can be done. It's just not worth the extra effort.


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## Nature (Dec 1, 2015)

I've had dogs in the past, but my current living situation doesn't allow dogs. I would adopt a dog from a high-kill animal shelter in a heartbeat if my living situation allowed to.
I usually trained my dogs with the dogs favorite toy or bone, along with praise/petting the dog. It works way better than with treats in my opinion.
I currently train shelter dogs from a non-kill shelter pro bono. We usually keep them as long as it takes in order to rehabilitate and train the dogs. 

No need to attack me. 

A lot of dogs at shelters that I've trained have been neglected in the past by bad owners and for the most part were scared to death of anyone. It takes a lot of patience and compassion towards those unfortunate dogs, although they are still very much trainable with time. I've never had to give up on any dog. 

People who beat dogs should go to jail for a long time and fined heavily. A dog doesn't learn from being beat/hit. Those are the dogs we get at the shelters and usually develop very severe anger issues or the complete opposite: scared to death of people.

If you like attacking people then go to a martial art school.



Canyx said:


> And Nature, have you ever owned a dog? I know you have two cats and have been volunteering at a shelter for 8 years (I hope they didn't prescribe prong collars to stressed shelter dogs!), and hope to get a shelter dog one day and teach it tricks and obedience...
> 
> Well as someone who has worked in a shelter on the floor, and is a full time trainer at a shelter, and has a dog with a TDCH (champion trick dog)... What credentials do you have that make you so confident that the solution to this owner's problem is to seek out a trainer whose only qualifications that matter to you are: uses a prong, and no treats/food?
> 
> ...


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

I appreciate everyone's input. She is indeed a very sensitive dog, so any kind of force backfires big time with her. I tried the old "abruptly changing directions so she learns to follow me" the other day when she would not let up on wanting to drag me into a specific bush in the park. The result was that she stood there, full brakes on, collar almost slipping off, with her biggest "why are you abusing me?" face, and that was just me trying to be the one giving the direction. I didn't even yell or anything. When you show her any kind of frustration, she gets timid, hunches down, makes her sad face etc. So I am fully aware that with her, it'll only work through positive reinforcement. 

I haven't tried rewarding with a toy -- mostly because she doesn't really care for anything outside other than her birds. She does respond to her squeaky duckie and I sometimes use it for recall training. We keep the duckie special for that reason. 

Can someone explain how they use a toy for reward while doing LLW? I have hard time coming up with the 3rd hand I'd need to keep that in...


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

No one's attacking you Nature. And as someone who has taken martial arts, I find it pretty ignorant that you associate an art of self discipline with violence. But I digress... My issue with your post is how short sighted it is. If you use toys then that's great. But if you only have praise and toys in your tool box and denounce food altogether, you are still not considering what might be a positive motivator for many dogs. Trainingjunkie has also been in the shelter world for many years so maybe she can weigh in... But I have never heard of any large number of shelter dogs rehabilitated with toys and praise and nothing else. Certainly play and enrichment are important and provided. But just praise and toys for fear biters and other severe problem behaviors? I'd have to see what you're doing to believe it. And again, if you do great work, then great. But you've already decided you don't use food at all. For who knows what reason. And others can also tell you that is a red flag in terms of your training philosophy, for many reasons.

OP, would love to show you a training video of llw and toy rewards. I'm sure any of the other posters would as well. When I'm off the smartphone and on a real computer l may be able to find something.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> No one's attacking you Nature. And as someone who has taken martial arts, I find it pretty ignorant that you associate an art of self discipline with violence. But I digress... My issue with your post is how short sighted it is. If you use toys then that's great. But if you only have praise and toys in your tool box and denounce food altogether, you are still not considering what might be a positive motivator for many dogs. Trainingjunkie has also been in the shelter world for many years so maybe she can weigh in... But I have never heard of any large number of shelter dogs rehabilitated with toys and praise and nothing else. Certainly play and enrichment are important and provided. But just praise and toys for fear biters and other severe problem behaviors? I'd have to see what you're doing to believe it. And again, if you do great work, then great. But you've already decided you don't use food at all. For who knows what reason. And others can also tell you that is a red flag in terms of your training philosophy, for many reasons.


Toys are awesome rewards. I use a lot of toy rewards with Molly, in particular. Very, very high value. 

However: Dogs will stop playing at lower levels of stressed than they will stop eating. Which means you can continue to effectively train with food rewards in situations where the dog just isn't going to go for the toy. Never mind treating praise as a reward for a dog in a shelter situation that doesn't know you at all - that's just ridiculous. 

There are also, and it might just be me, training limitations with a toy. I can throw food, I can make it interactive. I can even make it a fetch or tug game with a little creativity. I cannot, however, 'reward in position' very well with a toy. It also tends to be a ten second reward break even for a single ball toss, instead of a 2 second one with food. 

I like toy drive. I love using toys as rewards. They tend to stay my jackpot reward, though, rather than for every single behavior - even when the dog really really loves toys enough to work for them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZtBFDCXg-Y

Here: It's not LLW it's just a silly little video I made when someone asked me to demonstrate how I train, but there's marker words, luring, some shaping, food, toy as a jack pot, personal play, praise, and trading the toy for a treat.


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

Just wanted to say I watched your video CptJack.
I smiled the whole way through. Those little itty bitty
paws on your sneakers. Adorable. 
I wonder if that would work with wolfhounds. lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Wet Beards said:


> Just wanted to say I watched your video CptJack.
> I smiled the whole way through. Those little itty bitty
> paws on your sneakers. Adorable.
> I wonder if that would work with wolfhounds. lol


Ahahahah!

Maybe if you're really, really, tall... and have nice steel toed shoes.

(Thank you. She's a cute little sucker).


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

CptJack said:


> Toys are awesome rewards. I use a lot of toy rewards with Molly, in particular. Very, very high value.
> 
> However: Dogs will stop playing at lower levels of stressed than they will stop eating. Which means you can continue to effectively train with food rewards in situations where the dog just isn't going to go for the toy. Never mind treating praise as a reward for a dog in a shelter situation that doesn't know you at all - that's just ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that information. I see the issue using a toy in the middle for single behavior rewards. She'd go crazy over the toy, possibly jump (and she's really isn't a jumper unless you get her riled up with a toy) and it would be very hard to get off of the toy during the walk. I think I'll keep the toy for good behavior in the yard rather than on a walk for now.


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## ariella (Aug 17, 2015)

I'm not as experienced as everyone else here but since I've also adopted an untrained, energetic, bird-obsessed, reactive dog I feel your pain lol  It's so great that you're being so proactive and sensitive to her needs.

Firstly, have you looked at a sporn halter harness for a management tool on exercise, enjoy-the-world walks? They work well for the short haired power-pullers at our shelter so you might have some luck with one. They have woolly covers over the underarm straps so they don't rub. I've found it really important to have enjoyable bonding walks where I don't need to worry about training LLW, which can get frustrating for both of you for long stretches at first. Then if you train LLW in separate training sessions on her regular collar, she should learn to tell the difference.
For LLW, we're still working on that, but I did many many months of stopping when the leash went tight and waiting for him to make it loose before moving. It frustrated both of us and didn't work haha. He is picking up MUCH better on being marked and treated when he's by my side and turning around when he walks past me. So really he's learned the spot to be rather than to not let the leash be tight, but it seems to make more sense to him. I use both treats and 'go sniff!' as rewards for walking nicely and that's working well. For lunging at birds, I use 'leave it', which you can look up how to train (easier said than done, I know, but it happens eventually!).

Secondly, have you tried not feeding her in a bowl and instead using all of her food as training treats throughout the day? This can make food higher value for her and is good for at the start when you want to teach general manners because you can treat loads for all the behaviour you like without worrying about over-treating. Then when you go outside, deli meats will seem even more exciting! 
For exercising in the yard, I had to teach my boy to value the ball. At first he had no interest at all but I trained 'pick it up' and 'bring it' with treats until eventually he realised the ball was great fun and now he loves it a bit too much haha. That was handy to get in exercise in the yard. Since she's obsessed with birds, maybe she'd learn to love a frisbee?
Also, I had the same problem that inside the house all he'd want to do is stare at me, but outside I had NO attention. I trained 'watch me' in the house by treating a watch, then throwing his treat on the floor so he looked down to pick it up, then cueing again right before he looked back at me, repeat. Now we play with me turning around/running away a bit and saying 'watch me' so he has to get back in front of me and look at my eyes to get treated. It's good fun and now I can get him looking at me outside too.

Finally, don't stress yourself out too much by thinking that you MUST get X amount of time out walking for her to be happy and exercised. Walking is great, but if you can't muster up the energy some days it's okay to just do some training, both obedience and silly fun tricks, and playing at home. It's fun, better for your bond than taking her out while you're frustrated and will tire her out mentally. I used to give myself lots of grief over having to do loads of walking and exercising with my boy everyday no matter what, but recently I've been low on energy so haven't been doing as many walks but doing lots of fun training at home and he's actually calmer than he was when he was being walked constantly. If your girl's really stressed/aroused when outside, cortisol will build up in her system and will leave her frazzled, so it can be helpful to have rest days.

Oh! and 9pm zoomies are normal here, too. I put Joey on a lead and after a little protest he flops down and falls asleep. 
Hope that helps at all.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Thanks, this is very helpful. I'll look into that harness.

We did have some breakthrough success yesterday with taking treats outside. She chomped down two hot dogs and a big slice of cheese during attention training on front porch/ driveway. Mom was very proud. I did the training after she'd already been outside in the yard "helping daddy with yard work" for a good 1-2 hours. Afterwards, she also got into the ball. So the key to her attention really is to let her do her thing and then try it, not when she just steps outside for the first time in hours.

She also suddenly started paying attention to me on our before-bed "walk" to go potty in the yard last night. That caught me off guard and I had no treats on me. So I guess I need to take treats every time now. 

I am reluctant to substitute regular feedings with training feedings. She doesn't really eat the kibble out of my hand and is still quite a bit underweight. I've been ordered by the vet to put weight on her. She had diarrhea twice in the past 3 weeks and then gets picky about her food when she doesn't feel good, so I'm still playing catch-up as I think she may have lost some weight again from that. So I don't want to try a "if she's just hungry enough, she'll take the kibble" situation since she really shouldn't get any skinnier.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Great suggestions from the above posts and so glad you are seeing progress! It could be that she is still adjusting to your family and she is still coming out of shell.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Helping with the gardening is my dogs' favorite too. Maybe add puttering/hanging out in the back yard to your daily routine? Mark and reward when she does stuff you like. Maybe she sees a bird and obsesses then turns away. Mark the turning away. You don't want to forbid birds you want her to know that you appreciate leaving the birds. 

It's hard adopting a new dog. It seems like she's been there forever but she hasn't settled yet. Bucky's been here a year and is improving daily but has so far to go to be a good dog. Last night I took him for a twilight hike. He screamed at hikers on the trail above but didn't bark at hikers passing by. He was lunging in excitement rather than panic at the start and by the end of the 1/2 hour hike was getting cookies because he was walking/sniffing by my side rather than doing constant resets. His improvements are microscopic but they are there. I really ought to keep track, this hike maybe 1,320 lunges, next month maybe only 1,1786 lunges for a half hour hike. At that rate it would only take him 8 years to stop it altogether!


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Kathyy said:


> It's hard adopting a new dog. It seems like she's been there forever but she hasn't settled yet.


This.... I keep saying that I can't believe it's only been 4 weeks that we've had her. 

Thanks for the encouraging words and for letting me know there are worse things than her pulling. She has almost dislocated my shoulder a few times when I didn't see it coming but isn't really a crazy lunger. I once walked a friend's 75 lbs retriever who out of nowhere lunged at cars driving by....that was a moment I don't need to relive, so I understand. 

She does spend considerable time outside with us. I'll try to focus more on rewarding her good behavior there. In the past, she's been so focused on everything but is that it's been pointless to try, but as the novelty wears off she gets better at it. Today, I came home for lunch and was in the yard with her and she did leave the rats alone pretty soon to hang out with me (I'm not even sure they're still there; she at least thinks they are). This time, I came prepared with sausage and cheese and she took a considerable amount following me around in the yard and paying attention. So I guess we're off to a good week then. 
And if I can get her to put on a few pounds in the process, even better ;-). I've ordered a big training pouch that should arrive today so I am now equipped for treats on walks.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

OMG, I am going to lose my mind. After 2.5 days on chicken and rice, we went back to her normal food plus cooked chicken yesterday and today at lunch, she has diarrhea again. It can't be the damn regular food because she's been on that for months without issues. So it's gotta be the deli meat/hot dog/cheese treats or the Blue Buffalo treats she's been getting. So basically, I now have to put a 100% stop on treats and only feed her chicken and rice until we figure out what it is. Just when we're making progress.....

If she can't take these high value treats, what the f*** am I going to do?????? I tried her on cooked chicken livers one time and she spat them at my feet. She also doesn't really like the cooked chicken as treats, only when it's fresh off the stove but not the one from the bag that's been in the fridge overnight. 



Also, another question for the clicker experts: As she doesn't take treats consistently outside, should I continue to try to use the clicker during LLW or not use a clicker at all? I am wondering if I am teaching her that not all clicks reward with a treat because we don't use treats during LLW because she doesn't take them. Basically, am I ruining the clicker association with it and should stop?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Some dogs really need a long time to acclimate and check everything out first. I think it's a great idea to let her saturate with the environment for a while before you try to work with her. One thing I like to do is wait for any attention, say "yes" and give a treat, then tell my dog to "go sniff" and gesture towards the environment. Eventually, the goal is to get to the point where the dog is like "No, I don't want go sniff! I want to do stuff with you! Pay attention to me!" and then you've really got their brain. It can take so much patience though, but they will gradually start to be less interested in the environment and they'll know that you're available to do stuff with.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

What about something like Red Barn Rolls? They are "real food" and not super high in fat, but pretty high value. But if she won't take cooked chicken or chicken liver, then it's going to be tough to find stuff she likes.

I wouldn't use a clicker if she's not breaking to look at you and take a treat. You want it to be super conditioned to treats and by using it all the time when you know she won't pay attention you're kind of breaking that association. It's not a problem if that happens once in a while, but I wouldn't keep clicking after they don't want the treat the second time.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

elrohwen said:


> What about something like Red Barn Rolls? They are "real food" and not super high in fat, but pretty high value. But if she won't take cooked chicken or chicken liver, then it's going to be tough to find stuff she likes.
> 
> I wouldn't use a clicker if she's not breaking to look at you and take a treat. You want it to be super conditioned to treats and by using it all the time when you know she won't pay attention you're kind of breaking that association. It's not a problem if that happens once in a while, but I wouldn't keep clicking after they don't want the treat the second time.


Well, I can't really try anything now. I'll basically have to cut all treats for now, the vet said so we can slowly figure out what causes it. 

She loosens the leash by turning around but hardly ever looks at me. She basically does a 180 loop because she's figured out that I'll walk when she does that to loosen the leash. So I guess, the upside is that she has learned something, even if not the right thing??? ;-)


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Just a quick update for everyone who has helped me here. I think we've made some good progress with her over the past weeks. I don't really think it has that much to do with our training but rather with her settling into our home and her new life. We had some food challenges along the way that left us unable to give her a lot of treats for a while, so we tabled training for a week or so during that period. Food problems are now solved and we're back on track. 

I hadn't tried any outside treat training during leash walking with her for a few weeks. We just do our "stop and wait for her to turn around towards us" when she pulls and that was about it. She's been doing better with the pulling I'd say but is still a strong puller 90% of the time. 

So this week, I went back and cut up two hot dogs into small pieces, packed them in my pouch and tried outdoor reward with her, and voila, suddenly now she happily takes treats while outside. I tested it on two occasions and she did great, so I guess it was just a matter of letting her getting settled in. This makes me very hopeful that I'll be able to reinforce the positive behavior better and improve her leash walking. 

I'd also like to thank whoever suggested the Sporn Halter. It's fantastic and we use it when we want to take her out to go places but can't gamble on how long it'll take us to get there or back. She does pull a bit in it so I'm careful not to use it too much but it's been a real game changer, so thank you again. 

We've also made some good progress with the cups game. I think she's now really figuring that out. Sit/Stay is still a challenge but I'm trying a slightly different approach now and will see how that works. "Down" is also quite the slow process but I can also see some progress there. "Come here" is something we've not trained much in a dedicated fashion. We train it basically when we call her in from being outside in the yard....with varying degrees of success and will ramp that up a bit more over the next weeks.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks for the update! Good job working with her at an easy pace and letting her settling in. It is no surprise that her motivation for food is going up. Keep up the good work!


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Just wanted to report that we had a great walk in the park today. I took a bunch of high value treats to make it a dedicated training walk and couldn't believe it. She was nicely focused on me almost 80% of the walk. Only for a bit in the middle did she go into her ignoring-me mode. She walked so nicely today, I seriously couldn't believe it, especially since we've had some challenging walks over the past few weeks. 

This is one proud dog mom today. 


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kiki272 said:


> Just wanted to report that we had a great walk in the park today. I took a bunch of high value treats to make it a dedicated training walk and couldn't believe it. She was nicely focused on me almost 80% of the walk. Only for a bit in the middle did she go into her ignoring-me mode. She walked so nicely today, I seriously couldn't believe it, especially since we've had some challenging walks over the past few weeks.
> 
> This is one proud dog mom today.
> 
> ...


That's an awesome update!! I'm so glad things are getting better for you guys!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

That's fantastic!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thats so great!! Thanks for sharing and good job persevering. Lucky dog to have you!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

kiki272 said:


> Well, I can't really try anything now. I'll basically have to cut all treats for now, the vet said so we can slowly figure out what causes it.
> 
> She loosens the leash by turning around but hardly ever looks at me. She basically does a 180 loop because she's figured out that I'll walk when she does that to loosen the leash. So I guess, the upside is that she has learned something, even if not the right thing??? ;-)


you can probably use this and work with it as well. 

slowly introduce a prolonged loose leash behaviour after the spin. 
As in she spins but you take a second longer to continue the walk. Only reward if the leash is lose the entire time...slowly add seconds and then move to a loose leash while moving which will probably mean increasing the frequency of stops but the duration building from earlier would hopefully be building her attention towards you. 

Might work/might not work. 
I'd try it on my own 2


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

Flaming said:


> you can probably use this and work with it as well.
> 
> slowly introduce a prolonged loose leash behaviour after the spin.
> As in she spins but you take a second longer to continue the walk. Only reward if the leash is lose the entire time...slowly add seconds and then move to a loose leash while moving which will probably mean increasing the frequency of stops but the duration building from earlier would hopefully be building her attention towards you.
> ...


Thanks. Per my more recent post above, she's gotten a lot better overall. We now at least have some walks where she takes a real interest in me and the treats I provide. I'm also trying to focus reward more on attention than on turning around. I figure if I have her attention, she can't simultaneously pull so that's more valuable.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

So, this weekend was a lesson in generalization. She did great all week on our walks, paid attention, chomped down on treats etc.

Then we drove out to the mountains for a weekend getaway at a cabin, and she had 100% leash walking regression. 

We took her for a hike and she pulled like a maniac from the second we got out the car, for the entirety of the hike. I basically had rug burn on my hands, my joints were painful from all the yanking on them, that 2/3 in, I finally had enough.
We were alone on the trail so I attached her to 20ft of the 30ft leash and tied the end around my hips. That way, she at least only tugged on my hips, not my arm anymore. Peace was achieved.
This was the situation for both hikes this weekend.
No treats, didn't look at us once, completely overstimulated.

This morning we're back home again and she's the best dog on our walk and does a great job with LLW. 






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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kiki272 said:


> So, this weekend was a lesson in generalization. She did great all week on our walks, paid attention, chomped down on treats etc.
> 
> Then we drove out to the mountains for a weekend getaway at a cabin, and she had 100% leash walking regression.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's pretty much how it goes. My dog is 4 and he still acts like this in new outdoor areas. I haven't figured out any trick other than taking him back to the same places over and over until his brain comes back.


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## mikebusano (May 28, 2016)

> I'm concerned that taking her out to satisfy her high exercise needs will reinforce her pulling. If we diligently practice the stop and retreat method, we'd get less than a block in half an hour.


This week you can walk for an hour, maybe you'll be able to walk less than a block. Surely the following weeks you will improve, its not how far but the consistency of doing things is what matter. Humans learns a skill faster studying one hour for five days rather than 5 whole hours in just one day. You can do it you just need a little hardwork.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Yup, new place=no brain. Next time try working her same as you did at home, around the door, around the outside, a few steps away and so on. You might try working her inside until she seems happy from all the attention then try working on it.

Bucky is getting pretty good for a mile around my house but I want a hiking companion and am working on a particular hike a little at a time.

mikebusano has a good point, less is more. Half a dozen trips outside that may only last 30 seconds is better than wrestling with an over the top dog for an hour.


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## kiki272 (Jul 26, 2016)

mikebusano said:


> This week you can walk for an hour, maybe you'll be able to walk less than a block. Surely the following weeks you will improve, its not how far but the consistency of doing things is what matter. Humans learns a skill faster studying one hour for five days rather than 5 whole hours in just one day. You can do it you just need a little hardwork.


Thanks Mike. We are way past the initial stages now. These were initial concerns when we first got her, but she's doing great at home now.




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