# Dog peeing... for spite?



## Hurk (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi all, 

I am new to these forums, but the information in here is gold! I've been reading through them, and there is a lot of good information, so I'll be sticking around for a while.

I know how it sounds, that a dog will pee for spite, but it definately "seems" like that. Here's the story.

We got our puppy on Feb 1st (He's a Golden Doodle, and turns 8 weeks tomorrow) and I took the first week off work to get him settled in. We have a crate for him, which we feed him in and play with him in. After the first night, we did let him sleep with us, which doesn't seem bad at all. He doesn't pee in the bed, and can't get off the bed so he wakes us up when he wants out. 

The problem, is the crate (I think). My girlfriend had a soccer game and we were away for about 2.5 hours. We let him out before and while he did start whining, he didn't pee his bed or crate. I came home, let him outside. He pee'd (Go Pee! Good Boy! Treat). He Poo'd twice (Go Poo! Good boy! Treat). When he came back in the house, not 10 minutes later he pee'd right beside me, as if to say "Take that!". I said "NO!" and a I grabbed him, picked him up and I let him out, and he didn't pee outside. I brought him in, and not 5 miutes later he pee'd right infront of my girlfriend. I took him out, and he pee'd. (Go Pee! Good Boy! Treat)

He was a brat ever since we came home. We went to the park about 90 minutes before we left, he ran around, and had a great time, but after we crated him and left, he seemed to pee inside for spite. It was hard to be Calm and Assertive when this was happening.

I guess I have some questions.

1) Feeding the dog in the crate. Pro's and Con's? When we feed him, we close the door and let him be, but it seems to excite him, and he doesn't finish eating. 

2) When we let him out from the crate we don't excite him. We stay very matter of fact when we get home and let him out... so why is he peeing, if it isn't for spite?

3) We are letting him sleep with us - it keeps him quite, and it allows us to sleep. Is this a poor choice if we want to keep him in his crate when we leave the house?

I mean... he is only 8 weeks old, but it seems like 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

Any help?


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Dogs actually aren't capable of emotions such as spite or vengeance, so though it might seem that way, there is typically some other explanation. This also doesn't really sound to me like a crate issue since you mentioned that he doesn't have much a problem not soiling in the crate, nor have you been leaving him in there for an overly excessive amount of time. 

The first thing that comes to my mind is the possibility that he isn't finishing everything outside. I know you said that he goes several times throughout the course of an outside trip, but puppies are notorious for becoming distracted and not finishing their business. Then once they are back in the much less 'interesting' inside environment (with less smells, distractions, etc.) they suddenly seem to have an "Oh yeah!" moment and promptly pee all over your floor. This can also be the case if he is spending all his outside time playing rather then doing what he is supposed to. In order to help curb that issue I would suggest that you limit any trips outside (those meant specifically for bathroom breaks) to business alone and keep the play/interaction to a minimum. 

As for the closed gate exciting him, this also isn't uncommon. There is a difference between being comfortable in an open crate and then suddenly be trapped in there. I think, unless absolutely necessary, I would not use the crate for feeding time until he has properly adjusted to being in there. 

In order to do this, you need to take slow steps to desensitize him. Start with only leaving him in there for a few moments (or however long he can currently go without becoming too rowdy) and practice this over and over again. Leave the room while he is there as your presence likely only adds to his excitement. Also, praise him for a job well done when you take him back out. That doesn't mean you need to be jumping all over, full on excited - but gentle praise gets the job done just fine. As your puppy becomes accustom to spending this short time alone and doing so in quite, you can begin to increase the period of time before you come back to release. You will then slowly build up time until he is capable of staying alone for a number of hours.

He could be having the occasional crate accident for any number of reasons. It could be he hadn't finished as I mentioned above or it could be that there was too much time between breaks. Young puppies go to the bathroom A LOT, so make sure he's getting all the breaks he needs. It could also be an excitement or nervous thing. If he is becoming overly stimulated in the crate, that can cause dogs to urinate - just as an overly rambunctious greeting can.

I don't see a problem with allowing him to sleep in your bed, but it will slow down the crate training some as you don't have those extra night hours to expose him to being left alone or locked up. It's not really an issue depending on how fast you want everything to start taking effect. 

Hope this helps some! 
And welcome to dog-forums


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## Hurk (Feb 6, 2009)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Dogs actually aren't capable of emotions such as spite or vengeance, so though it might seem that way, there is typically some other explanation. This also doesn't really sound to me like a crate issue since you mentioned that he doesn't have much a problem not soiling in the crate, nor have you been leaving him in there for an overly excessive amount of time.
> 
> The first thing that comes to my mind is the possibility that he isn't finishing everything outside. I know you said that he goes several times throughout the course of an outside trip, but puppies are notorious for becoming distracted and not finishing their business. Then once they are back in the much less 'interesting' inside environment (with less smells, distractions, etc.) they suddenly seem to have an "Oh yeah!" moment and promptly pee all over your floor. This can also be the case if he is spending all his outside time playing rather then doing what he is supposed to. In order to help curb that issue I would suggest that you limit any trips outside (those meant specifically for bathroom breaks) to business alone and keep the play/interaction to a minimum.


This could be part of the problem. In the beginning, he wasn't able to go up and down the stairs outside, so we carried him to his spot, put him down and carried him back. This, and the fact that it was -15*C out, we didn't want any nonsense. Now that it's only around 0*C - 5*C and there is no ice on the stairs, we give him a bit more freedom, and he has been getting excited about the trees, leaves and bushes on the way to the pee and poop area. I believe limiting his time outside will help this! Great suggestion.



> As for the closed gate exciting him, this also isn't uncommon. There is a difference between being comfortable in an open crate and then suddenly be trapped in there. I think, unless absolutely necessary, I would not use the crate for feeding time until he has properly adjusted to being in there.


Where would feeding be best? We spend most of our time in the living room (basement) and that is where his crate is. To go outside, he needs to go upstairs, or at least sit at the stairs. When we had his water upstairs, he'd go upstairs for it, and we'd think he needed to go outside. Should we keep the feeding near his crate in the basement, so this confusion doesn't happen?



> In order to do this, you need to take slow steps to desensitize him. Start with only leaving him in there for a few moments (or however long he can currently go without becoming too rowdy) and practice this over and over again. Leave the room while he is there as your presence likely only adds to his excitement. Also, praise him for a job well done when you take him back out. That doesn't mean you need to be jumping all over, full on excited - but gentle praise gets the job done just fine. As your puppy becomes accustom to spending this short time alone and doing so in quite, you can begin to increase the period of time before you come back to release. You will then slowly build up time until he is capable of staying alone for a number of hours.


We've started this, and he's actually very good at it. We'll continue with this, as he was more comfortable in there when we were doing this 4-6 times a day.



> He could be having the occasional crate accident for any number of reasons. It could be he hadn't finished as I mentioned above or it could be that there was too much time between breaks. Young puppies go to the bathroom A LOT, so make sure he's getting all the breaks he needs. It could also be an excitement or nervous thing. If he is becoming overly stimulated in the crate, that can cause dogs to urinate - just as an overly rambunctious greeting can.


He hasn't soiled his crate yet. *crosses fingers*



> I don't see a problem with allowing him to sleep in your bed, but it will slow down the crate training some as you don't have those extra night hours to expose him to being left alone or locked up. It's not really an issue depending on how fast you want everything to start taking effect.


This does help. We're okay with the crate training being a little slower. Do you think the extra time he spends with us, will cause separation anxiety when we do leave? I have a bad feeling, we're spending too much time with him... and it's harder when we leave.


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## SxyVixen (Feb 3, 2009)

Any particular reason you shut the crate door at feeding? To him that might be an indication that you're heading out. I put the food/water bowls in the back of the crate, but always left the door open. You may want to try that to help with the excitedness?

I also had to learn that Kai had to stay outside a little longer for his business than just the couple times he did quickly after getting out to his designated area. We never play outside near his designated area and I'm very strong on being a "go potty! go potty!" person so he knows why we are there. It's helped a lot, but there were still accidents while he was trained.


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## Hurk (Feb 6, 2009)

SxyVixen said:


> Any particular reason you shut the crate door at feeding? To him that might be an indication that you're heading out. I put the food/water bowls in the back of the crate, but always left the door open. You may want to try that to help with the excitedness?


I guess the idea was... he loves food... dislikes his crate... while he eats with the door closed, it creates a positive experience... Hind sight, it doesn't look like a great plan.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

What you've heard today is very correct. I am a new forum member, but I can tell you that I read Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, and Jean Donaldson all the time. 

Those guys are like the gurus of the dog training world. I think it would really help if you looked into their books. 

Dogs aren't spiteful. They know that when you come home, that you will be mad for some reason. This is just due to prior conditioning. 

The dog pees on the floor. 
5 seconds later, he forgets that he does it and moves on with his life. 
You come home and see the pee, and get really mad. 
The dog is confused, and doesn't know why you are mad. 
You punish the dog. 
The dog learns to dread it when you come home. 
Rinse, repeat. 

My suggestion is crate train the dog and get him on a potty schedule. It will make y our life better and his life better.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

There is a book called "Crate Games" you can get from www.dogwise.com and I suggest you get it. It will help with the crate issues. 

As to the peeing.. you have a little baby dog here.. only 8 weeks old so the longest he can be expected to 'hold' it is about 2 hours! By having him hold it longer, he may get a bit backed up so he goes but needs to go again pretty quickly as his kidneys clear out wastes. 

I would take him out to pee, crate him (door closed) for 15 minutes and take him out again. You can do that a couple of times. This will help him to uderstand that going out = potty and treat. 

I would, as much as possible, have him do the walking to the door too. 

Dogs house training is a thing of daily practice. While I dog may show he is 'getting the idea' typically this kicks in a little older than 8 weeks. However, every time the dog needs to go he gets practice on what is right if you can stay on top of every thing.


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## Hurk (Feb 6, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> There is a book called "Crate Games" you can get from www.dogwise.com and I suggest you get it. It will help with the crate issues.
> 
> As to the peeing.. you have a little baby dog here.. only 8 weeks old so the longest he can be expected to 'hold' it is about 2 hours! By having him hold it longer, he may get a bit backed up so he goes but needs to go again pretty quickly as his kidneys clear out wastes.
> 
> ...



He is now walking to the door as much as possible. He has pee'd at the bottom, and middle of the stairs so we are affraid to let him come on his own, but we are trying.

His tiny, 8 week bladder, seems pretty good. When he sleeps with us, it's around 3-4 hours before he needs to go out! Other times, he needs to go out every 15 minutes. I think he's doing well for his age, but we are still working with him and the random peeing last night frustrated my girlfriend and I... so I came here 

Thanks for all the advice so far!


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