# Puppy growling at vet



## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

My puppy growled at the vet today when he touched her back leg (twice). She's also growled at our kids a couple times when she was VERY tired, was sleeping, and they touched her. But my super sweet old dog has done that in the past as well and he's never shown an ounce of aggression towards anyone... he just got startled.

Anyway, the vet said it's a red flag. She hasn't shown any other type of aggression with the kids at all in the 5 weeks she's been home, and they're always in her face, picking her up etc... no problem at all. I also touched her leg a few times at home after too and she had no problem with it whatsoever.

It was her 3rd trip to the vet in those 5 weeks and she's clearly nervous there (she was still licking the assistant and had no problem otherwise), so I think he's overreacting, and I'll bring her up with the puppy trainer tomorrow anyway... but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts about this is?


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

> they're always in her face, picking her up etc


 This is a big red flag to me. The kids should learn to respect the dog and not be "in her face". Growling is a warning from the dog letting you know that she doesn't like what you're doing. Some dogs only go that far, some dogs think since their growl was ignored, they need to take the next step, which is to bite. Every dog is different and they each have different levels of tolerance. I hope when the dog has growled, the kids stopped touching her. 

From what I understand you've only had this dog for 5 weeks? She probably is still adjusting to her new home. Give her some space and let her come around on her own terms. If she wants to play with the kids she will go play with the kids, she shouldn't be forced to.

There are lots of good articles online, here's one I just found by doing a google search: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/decoding-your-pet/201412/dogs-dont-bite-out-the-blue

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your situation; kids and growling dogs just make me nervous. People think because their last dog tolerated a behavior that all dogs should. That's just not the case, imo. I'd just hate for you to be in the situation where your dog does bite/injure someone.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Listen to your pup. If she is uncomfortable getting touched then back off and approach the situation another way. Growling is dog language and you want her to growl if she is uncomfortable. Better to get backed off by a growl than a snap or outright bite.

The red flag is not the growl, it's the not wanting to be handled by strangers. Watch her around your children for signs she's uncomfortable with the carrying around and such. My little dogs detest such treatment with one dancing away and the other biting when they arrived. They are much better these days as we don't pick them up much and don't put our faces in their faces.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

She's a 15-18? week old puppy. She only growled at the kid when they woke her up suddenly - I did tell them to leave her alone when she sleeps and there hasn't been any issue at all since.


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## Alisa♥ (Mar 9, 2017)

I don't know much about dogs + kids, but I can relate to your vet story for sure.

My pup was silent and cheerful the first time we went to the vet...she did not even notice the shot and was happy to be handled and coddled by the vet and her tech. Two days ago we were back for a vaccine booster; it was a different vet and vet tech, and a completely different story. No growling but yelping (it sounded like pain or fear yelps) even during simple parts of the procedure, like looking inside her ears. They couldn't even get her vaccine shot done in one poke, because she was panicking the whole time. Such a stressful situation for both me and my pup!

For our next visit, I'm going to make sure we're scheduled with the first vet to see if that was the issue. I knew from my neighbor that there was a vet at this office that her puppy did NOT like (and the vet said her boy's growling was a "red flag" too, btw) and I think I know who it is now. Maybe try a different doc at the same office, to see if the issue repeats itself. It's also possible your pup was just really tired that day (and I'm considering that possibility for my situation, too!)


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

It just seems that the vet seemed to think that puppies should never growl even when the kids are asking for it either! She's really good with them but when they bother her when she's busy doing something else (or when she's sleeping), I don't exactly blame her for growling either. I swear that it's harder to train my kids about using common sense around dogs than to train the dog at times. Seriously kids, if the dog is busy playing with a toy or distracted or sleeping, leave her alone. And stop grabbing her from behind to pick her up! Ugh. At least they're helping (somewhat) at puppy classes (when they're not complaining that they're bored or mad because we're telling them that they're doing things wrong).

I talked about it to the trainer at her puppy class and she said she didn't notice any issue whatsoever with her (and the trainer did grab her collar and other things like that during training). I mean, 3 doctor visits in 5 weeks would stress me out too, and she's always getting shots. I still don't really like it but it hasn't happened any other time and I'm trying to socialize her as much as possible (considering that we STILL can't really take her to places where people go with their dogs - although we took her to the farmer's market because it's in a commuter parking lot and it was the first market of the year).


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Vets know a ton of stuff about treating injuries and illnesses and general health, but in-depth training and behavior isn't part of most general veterinary programs. Some vets may go out of their way to keep up-to-date on the behavioral science of the species they treat, but many don't. That's okay! That's not part of their job, and that's why applied animal behaviorists/veterinary behaviorists exist - they specialize specifically in handling behavioral issues in animals. But I would take a vet's advice on behavior or training with a grain of salt unless you have some additional evidence that they have kept up to breast with modern research and understanding of behavioral issues.

Growling in a super stressful situation like the vet's is normal. Growling is communication - it's the pup saying "I'm scared and don't like this and want you to stop now." It's a sign we should listen, step back, and try to figure out a different approach that will stress the dog out less, not a sign that the puppy is "bad" or "aggressive" or "dominant". Obviously, there will be times we can't respect the dog's boundaries for their own health and safety, but our goal should be teaching the dog that we _in general_ will not force them to do things that make them uncomfortable unnecessarily. Instead, we will either desensitize them slowly to the thing they don't like, turning it positive instead of scary (like teaching collar grabs are fun by pairing the actions of reaching for, then touching, then grabbing the collar with tasty treats, slowly and over multiple training sessions), or change our own behavior to avoid putting them in that position (like calling a resting pup over to you for fussing/pets instead of going to them, and respecting it if they don't seem interested in interacting right now).

Now, take this with a grain of salt because I, admittedly, don't have kids. But would it help to teach your kids appropriate alternative ways to interact with the puppy by involving them in simple training at home? Maybe watch some Kikopup or Zak George videos together on YouTube, and help set them up to play the specific games and teach fun tricks those trainers offer? While, of course, staying firm about how the puppy is allowed to have a space and time where they don't get bothered. Having a crate, bed, or room that's a "safe zone" where nobody's allowed to bother the dog for any reason short of an emergency may help.

One last point - socialization is awesome, but remember that quality is much better than quantity. Meeting a few people/dogs who are gentle and respectful of her and give her space if she's nervous leaves her with a much better impression over all than her meeting hundreds of people/dogs who are loud, pushy, and otherwise scary or overwhelming for a small pup. Also socialization is happening just when she's exposed to new people, dogs, or things nearby, so even just hanging outside a busy area so long as she's happy and not stressed counts, she doesn't have to meet everyone!


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

Thanks, I feel a bit better, lol!

Yeah I'm definitely not trying to go overboard on socialization either (still a bit worried about the vaccine situation as the vet can't tell me how old she is and is worried she got her first set of shots too early). She's gone to 'puppy play' at the local training facility 3 times so far too. She's been around other kids and there was no issue at all either. I'm taking her for a 4 hour training session today (it's free with our puppy class session) and I'll ask them to work on getting her used to being touched a bit. We've been doing the 'randomly grabbing the collar and giving a treat' part too. And I keep telling the kids not to grab her from behind, but follow her lead when it comes to playing. It's hard for them to do - they always want to do things their way and we hang out with a family with 3 dogs whose kids do pretty much whatever they want with them! I admit that it makes me a bit nervous that they might scare her off children but we'll keep working on it...

She has a crate and sometimes goes there during the day, but typically when she kids get back from school is when she's the most active too. I try to send the kids outside with her to play.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Sounds like you're on the right track! I honestly do believe pets are really great for kids to learn empathy and respect from (though I grew up with cats, not dogs). I'm sure they'll get it as the puppy settles into your household, so long as the rules are consistent. You could try explaining that every dog has a different personality and different likes and dislikes, too, to help them understand that what's fine with their friends' dogs might not work for her.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

My son's first dog growled and gave extremely convincing air snaps when he didn't want to be bothered - you would swear you were missing a finger after one but he didn't touch you. Easy for his babies to see how the dog felt. New dog is very mellow and allows the now preschoolers to yank her around. Not so good. They need to learn about ear set and whale eye and all that to know if the dog is okay with what is going on. Most adults know nothing about that!


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## Alisa♥ (Mar 9, 2017)

Any recent vet trips, Francl27? We were just back in yesterday and it was definitely a better visit, this was with the "original" vet...maybe your pup will have a similar preference for who is handling her/doling out the shots!


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

We went back 10 days ago. She was nervous and the tech tried to grab her from behind when she was heading to hide under my chair, and she growled at him. Then she growled at the vet again when he was checking her legs.. so of course he started to rant about how it was a red flag, that a lot of dogs are uncomfortable or scared there but don't growl. She hasn't growled at anyone else in a month though so it was annoying to say the least. Another tech did her nails and it was fine (but we were feeding her treats at the same time too). 

I gave her a bath yesterday for the first time and I'm always touching her all over and brushing her and she's fine too. I know she's terrified of the table they put her on too (even getting her weighed on their scale is difficult). She had that 4 hour training session and they were touching her everywhere too and she did great... at puppy play classes she has no problem with the trainers picking her up either... so I don't really understand and I'm getting pretty annoyed about this. 

On a side note, my mom and her boyfriend (they're 70 and 80 or something) are coming to stay for a few days and it's going to be.. interesting. Last time she saw an old guy with a cane outside she barked at him.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Francl27 said:


> We went back 10 days ago. *She was nervous and the tech tried to grab her from behind when she was heading to hide under my chair, and she growled at him. Then she growled at the vet again when he was checking her legs..* so of course he started to rant about how it was a red flag, that a lot of dogs are uncomfortable or scared there but don't growl. She hasn't growled at anyone else in a month though so it was annoying to say the least. Another tech did her nails and it was fine (but we were feeding her treats at the same time too).


I'd go to a new vet. They're mishandling your dog. You should never grab a dog from behind when the dog is clearly frightened and trying to hide.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

Hiraeth said:


> I'd go to a new vet. They're mishandling your dog. You should never grab a dog from behind when the dog is clearly frightened and trying to hide.


I know, right? I have to go to another vet to get her spayed anyway (this one doesn't work with the state spaying program) so maybe they'll be a better fit over there. Annoying though... we've been with them since we moved here.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

> I know, right? I have to go to another vet to get her spayed anyway (this one doesn't work with the state spaying program) so maybe they'll be a better fit over there. Annoying though... we've been with them since we moved here.


 This is how we ended up switching vets. We weren't terribly happy with the one we had and Pepper had to go to a different vet to be spayed and they were fantastic! We've been with this new vet ever since, even though they're a bit more expensive it's well worth it.


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