# Anaca or TOTW or Fromm ??? Please, help me !



## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

Hello !
I am looking for dry dog food for my Akita Inu puppies (large breed). Could you tell me which one is better between 3 of them ? or other recomended ?
Thank you !


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## doodlebug124 (Oct 31, 2015)

From an ingredient standpoint, Acana is the best, then TOTW, then Fromm.

Nothing negative to say about Acana. TOTW is made by Diamond and their recall record isn't the best. Fromm uses more pea protein than I like, however they've only had one recall in their history and it was on one sku of canned for for an incorrect vitamin level...not a big deal.


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

Kibble is Kibble is Kibble....they all have basically the same ingredients and nutrition. The only thing differentiating them is marketing.

All three are heavily processed foods.

I would try Abady instead.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

BennySimpson said:


> Kibble is Kibble is Kibble....they all have basically the same ingredients and nutrition. The only thing differentiating them is marketing.
> 
> All three are heavily processed foods.
> 
> I would try Abady instead.


LOL, I see what you're getting at, but that's like, quantifiably not true. Beneful or some other food that is mostly corn sweetened with corn syrup, with added food coloring is no where close to something like Acana, which contains a decent amount of meat and protein, moderate amounts of carbohydrate and no food coloring or sugar. Also, Abady looks like a good brand, but they make kibble too, LOL!

To the OP, they are all decent foods. If price is not of major concern to you I would go with Acana. If it is I would choose whichever works for your budget...none of them are foods I would avoid myself. I fed TOTW through college because it was the best deal for the quality.


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

Abady makes two very simple kibbles that is true.

The granular, unprocessed foods, are incredible foods. Just white rice in small amounts and no fiber.

Really excellent products. Best fat profile around. Pork fat, beef fat, fish oil, safflower oil and flax oil.

The proteins aren't ever heated.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

Thank you everyone.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

BennySimpson said:


> Abady makes two very simple kibbles that is true.
> 
> The granular, unprocessed foods, are incredible foods. Just white rice in small amounts and *no fiber. *
> 
> ...


That's great if your dog can handle that. My dog's anal glands would be an infected bloody mess without any fiber in her diet. Been down that road before. No matter how much you may like a certain brand, doesn't mean it's some holy grail food for all dogs. 

I really like Acana and have never had a negative experience with it. For my dog, I've been really happy with Annamaet though. As someone else already said, Fromm has too much protein from peas in my opinion. Some of the flavors even smell like peas to me when I opened the bag. Seems overpriced for what it is.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

BennySimpson said:


> Abady makes two very simple kibbles that is true.
> 
> The granular, unprocessed foods, are incredible foods. Just white rice in small amounts and no fiber.
> 
> ...


Uh, wrong again. Both kibbles contain fiber, in the rice and barley. Not sure where you're getting your information or if you're being paid to promote this food...

New Frontier Chicken Formula
Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Rice, Pearled Barley, Safflower Oil, Chicken fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Di-Calcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Whole Dried Egg, Chlorine Chloride, Natural Flavoring, dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Vitamin A Acetate, d-Dalcium Pantothenate, Niacinamide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Inositol, Cholecalciferol (source of Vitamin D3), Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Manganese Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Phytocadione (Vitamin K), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenate, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (source of Vitamin B12).


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

Seem like Acana > TOTW > FROMM, right ?


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

With large breed dogs you need to have a proper calcium/phosporus levels for the best chance at proper growth. 

That said, I think all of those foods fall within the recommended levels. I agree that I would choose Acana first, then TOTW, then Fromm. However it really depends on what your dog does best on. 

Based on those 3 brands you are looking at, I'd recommend taking a look at Earthborn, too. I know for sure that brand is safe for large breeds and it's also a good food (although I don't recommend the Primitive line, as it's high in ash - the others are okay). If I were to add Earthborn to the list, it'd be Acana, Earthborn, TOTW, then Fromm.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

sydneynicole said:


> With large breed dogs you need to have a proper calcium/phosporus levels for the best chance at proper growth.
> 
> That said, I think all of those foods fall within the recommended levels. I agree that I would choose Acana first, then TOTW, then Fromm. However it really depends on what your dog does best on.
> 
> Based on those 3 brands you are looking at, I'd recommend taking a look at Earthborn, too. I know for sure that brand is safe for large breeds and it's also a good food (although I don't recommend the Primitive line, as it's high in ash - the others are okay). If I were to add Earthborn to the list, it'd be Acana, Earthborn, TOTW, then Fromm.


I just take a look at Earthborn. They dont have grain free formula for large breed puppy. The Holistic formula has Puppy Vantege with "Crude Fat, minimum 20.00%". I think it is high for puppy.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Abady granular sounds intriguing. I wish they made a granular cat food. . .the composition of the maintenance dog food sounds perfect for cats, I suppose I could just add some taurine. Most of the calories are from fat but that's good for cats. 

Back to the original topic. . .of that list I think I'd try Go! It's usually reasonably priced and the ingredients look good. I used the kitten food for my ferret and he did well on it. Sometimes you just have to try a few brands to see what works best for your dog.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

High fat is good for dogs, as long as their stomachs can handle it. Higher fat levels promote good coat, for example. My dogs get poor coats on less than 20% fat. So is high protein. You also don't need to feed the large breed puppy formula - their food is all life stages. Instead of looking specifically for a puppy food, look at the ingredients and nutrient information and go based on that. There are tons of large breed puppy formulas out there that actually aren't that great for large breed puppies.

edit: I learned about Earthborn being good for large breed puppies on a Great Dane forum, so it should be perfectly fine for an Akita.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

trietakita said:


> I just take a look at Earthborn. They dont have grain free formula for large breed puppy. The Holistic formula has Puppy Vantege with "Crude Fat, minimum 20.00%". I think it is high for puppy.


You do not need to feed your puppy food that is specifically formulated for puppies. Earthborn's formulas are "All Life Stages" formulas that are good for both puppies and adult dogs. 

Fat is not a problem. Calcium and phosphorous levels are important for giant breed dogs, but smaller breeds like Akitas probably don't need the very specific levels required by Mastiffs and Danes.



sydneynicole said:


> High fat is good for dogs, as long as their stomachs can handle it. Higher fat levels promote good coat, for example. My dogs get poor coats on less than 20% fat. So is high protein. You also don't need to feed the large breed puppy formula - their food is all life stages. Instead of looking specifically for a puppy food, look at the ingredients and nutrient information and go based on that. There are tons of large breed puppy formulas out there that actually aren't that great for large breed puppies.
> 
> edit: I learned about Earthborn being good for large breed puppies on a Great Dane forum, so it should be perfectly fine for an Akita.


100% agreed with all of the above


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Abady granular sounds intriguing. I wish they made a granular cat food. . .the composition of the maintenance dog food sounds perfect for cats, I suppose I could just add some taurine. Most of the calories are from fat but that's good for cats.
> 
> Back to the original topic. . .of that list I think I'd try Go! It's usually reasonably priced and the ingredients look good. I used the kitten food for my ferret and he did well on it. Sometimes you just have to try a few brands to see what works best for your dog.


Abady does make granular foods for cats. 46% protein and 22% fat.

"Chicken Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Lard (Source of Omega6 and Omega3 Fatty Acids), Poultry By-Product Meal, Undefatted Liver Powder, Menhaden Fish Oil, Whole Dried Eggs (Human Grade), Whey Protein Concentrate (Human Grade) plus Minerals And Vitamins." 

I was able to find this online link, https://www.fordogsake.com/collecti...t-quality-maintenance-growth-formula-for-cats


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

kafkabeetle said:


> Uh, wrong again. Both kibbles contain fiber, in the rice and barley. Not sure where you're getting your information or if you're being paid to promote this food...
> 
> New Frontier Chicken Formula
> Ingredients:
> Chicken Meal, Rice, Pearled Barley, Safflower Oil, Chicken fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Di-Calcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Whole Dried Egg, Chlorine Chloride, Natural Flavoring, dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Vitamin A Acetate, d-Dalcium Pantothenate, Niacinamide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Inositol, Cholecalciferol (source of Vitamin D3), Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Manganese Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Phytocadione (Vitamin K), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenate, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (source of Vitamin B12).


I was referring to the granulars. Even so the fiber in that kibble would be very low, Not 6% or higher like in other foods.

I don't think you are well informed. White rice has virtually no fiber BTW. Pearled Barley has the bran removed.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

BennySimpson said:


> I was referring to the granulars. Even so the fiber in that kibble would be very low, Not 6% or higher like in other foods.
> 
> I don't think you are well informed. White rice has virtually no fiber BTW.


Yeah, I didn't realize you were referring to the granulars. My hackles go up when statements start to sound like an infomercial or when blanket statements are made about all kibble. It does sounds like a good food and better than kibble, but way out of the price range of the foods the OP is looking at. I'd consider it as a topper...

Also, when I was talking about rice containing fiber, the ingredient I was referring to just said "rice," not white rice like in the granulars. And the pearled barley I was also referring to contains 31 grams of fiber per cup.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

Seem like many people like Abady, right ?


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

trietakita said:


> Seem like many people like Abady, right ?


Yes, it's a great food if you can swing the price, and your dog can tolerate it.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

kafkabeetle said:


> Yes, it's a great food if you can swing the price, and your dog can tolerate it.


Could you tell me some website that I can order Abady with a good price ? 
After take a look, I think people is like Abady and Orijen much more. But these brand is more expensive....(


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

trietakita said:


> Could you tell me some website that I can order Abady with a good price ?
> After take a look, I think people is like Abady and Orijen much more. But these brand is more expensive....(


I really wouldn't recommend putting yourself in a bad financial situation to feed your dog. The other foods you mentioned are still very good, truly.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

kafkabeetle said:


> I really wouldn't recommend putting yourself in a bad financial situation to feed your dog. The other foods you mentioned are still very good, truly.


I have many confuse, I fed my dogs (7months and 10months) 3 times a day. Morning and Afternoon, I fed chicken meat (sometimes is beef, fish, liver, organic, mix some vegetable) not boiled. Evening, I fed dry dog food. And they were on TOTW in a while. I realized, they eat very well with meat, but with dry food, they eat with a boring face, usually just eat a little. Please give me advice in this case.
P/s: I am not good in English. Sorry everyone !


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

trietakita said:


> I have many confuse, I fed my dogs (7months and 10months) 3 times a day. Morning and Afternoon, I fed chicken meat (sometimes is beef, fish, liver, organic, mix some vegetable) not boiled. Evening, I fed dry dog food. And they were on TOTW in a while. I realized, they eat very well with meat, but with dry food, they eat with a boring face, usually just eat a little. Please give me advice in this case.
> P/s: I am not good in English. Sorry everyone !


Well, since you're feeding more appetizing foods in the morning, it makes sense that they are turning their noses up at kibble...it just doesn't taste as good.  

I think your options are:
1. Mixing the kibble with canned food or even just warm water to make it more appealing.
2. Give half meats/half kibble during all of your feedings so the meats flavor the kibble and make it more appealing.
3. Try some different kibbles to see if you can find one they like better.
4. Skip the last meal of the day (our dogs only get breakfast and dinner)...perhaps they are getting too much food and that is why they don't finish it.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

kafkabeetle said:


> Well, since you're feeding more appetizing foods in the morning, it makes sense that they are turning their noses up at kibble...it just doesn't taste as good.
> 
> I think your options are:
> 1. Mixing the kibble with canned food or even just warm water to make it more appealing.
> ...


I greatly appreciate your help. I have 2 Akita Inu in puppy age. I heard TOTW just has 2 good products is High Prairie and Wetlands. Is it true ? I am feeding my puppies the High Prairie Puppy, so I think it is not good enough follow what people said. Could you recommend me some brand with the same price is good for puppy age ? 
One more thing, with a 7months 40lbs and a 10months 60lbs Akita Inu, how much raw meat I should feed for a time ? I am feeding a 7months puppy about 120gr/time ( 2time : morning and afternoon), evening I feed TOTW follow the directions 3+1/4 Cups a day, so I feed 1cup in the evening. The 10months I feed 1kg raw meat a day in 3times.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

trietakita said:


> I greatly appreciate your help. I have 2 Akita Inu in puppy age. I heard TOTW just has 2 good products is High Prairie and Wetlands. Is it true ? I am feeding my puppies the High Prairie Puppy, so I think it is not good enough follow what people said. Could you recommend me some brand with the same price is good for puppy age ?


The High Prairie and Wetlands formulas are higher in protein and fat than the others. I prefer them myself.

Another option in a similar price range is Dr. Tim's. I'm trying this food when our current bag runs low. https://www.chewy.com/dr-tims-rpm-salmon-pork-grain-free/dp/107788


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

Honestly, I think you are over thinking it. If you are happy with the food and the pups are doing well on it, I see no reason to stress about changing their food. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like the food you feed. What matters is how the dog does on it. I don't know how long you've had the puppy, but putting a new puppy through food changes could just cause unnecessary problems.

Whichever one you end up picking, they're all decent quality so no need to feel bad or stress about feeding any of them.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

MarieLovesChis said:


> Honestly, I think you are over thinking it. If you are happy with the food and the pups are doing well on it, I see no reason to stress about changing their food. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like the food you feed. What matters is how the dog does on it. I don't know how long you've had the puppy, but putting a new puppy through food changes could just cause unnecessary problems.
> 
> Whichever one you end up picking, they're all decent quality so no need to feel bad or stress about feeding any of them.


Thank you for very good advice !


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

40lbs of Abady Granular is $85-$90 but its much more dense a food so it really isn't more expensive that other foods.

Look at the price per lb of other foods, Abady costs less actually.

Abady is very well tolerated so I don't understand the comment "if your dog can handle it".


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

BennySimpson said:


> 40lbs of Abady Granular is $85-$90 but its much more dense a food so it really isn't more expensive that other foods.
> 
> Look at the price per lb of other foods, Abady costs less actually.
> 
> Abady is very well tolerated so I don't understand the comment "if your dog can handle it".


Could you tell me what line of Abady is good for Akita Inu puppy ?
I am living in Texas and I can't find this product here.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

I heard a breeder said that it is not good to feed a puppy with dry dog food has protein higher than 28%. It will make the puppy grow too fast. But, after take a look on some good brand like Acana, Orijen, Abady,... any version of puppy dry dog food always has high protein than 30%.
So the breeder is right, or these company are right ?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

trietakita said:


> I heard a breeder said that it is not good to feed a puppy with dry dog food has protein higher than 28%. It will make the puppy grow too fast. But, after take a look on some good brand like Acana, Orijen, Abady,... any version of puppy dry dog food always has high protein than 30%.
> So the breeder is right, or these company are right ?


Protein does not effect growth. Calcium and phosphorous percentages do.


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

Hiraeth said:


> Protein does not effect growth. Calcium and phosphorous percentages do.


Calcium and phosphorous at very high levels adds risk. That does not mean it affects growth of all puppies, that is a myth. It is just one factor.

Puppies tend to growth faster the more calories they eat. That is true but frankly that is like all animals.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

BennySimpson said:


> Calcium and phosphorous at very high levels adds risk. That does not mean it affects growth of all puppies, that is a myth. It is just one factor.
> 
> Puppies tend to growth faster the more calories they eat. That is true but frankly that is like all animals.


Yeah, no. Calcium and phosphorous effect the growth of all puppies. However, giant breeds are at a much higher risk of growing pains and defects due to calc/phos levels, which is why they need to be fed between 1-1.5% calcium (the lower the better) and .08-1% phosphorous (the lower the better). It's not a myth. I can link studies to prove it, if you'd really like.

Puppies also don't grow faster the more calories they eat. They do grow FATTER the more calories they eat, however. My Dane was consuming 4,400 calories a day at one point. If you fed that much to a Lab puppy, there's no way it would grow as fast as my Dane, it would just get fat.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

BennySimpson said:


> 40lbs of Abady Granular is $85-$90 but its much more dense a food so it really isn't more expensive that other foods.
> 
> Look at the price per lb of other foods, Abady costs less actually.
> 
> Abady is very well tolerated so I don't understand the comment "if your dog can handle it".


It's one of the highest fat foods I have seen. Some dogs (like mine) do swell on high fat. Some dogs don't. Just like some people.

Abady is most definitely more expensive than Taste of the Wild. You're confusing the OP who has already stated that the price is a stretch for them. It's not nice to try to convince people to spend more than they are able. Especially when they are already feeding a varied diet for their dogs' morning meal.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

trietakita said:


> I heard a breeder said that it is not good to feed a puppy with dry dog food has protein higher than 28%. It will make the puppy grow too fast. But, after take a look on some good brand like Acana, Orijen, Abady,... any version of puppy dry dog food always has high protein than 30%.
> So the breeder is right, or these company are right ?


As Hiraeth has stated, protein is less important to watch than calcium/phosphorus ratios, and the amount of food you feed.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

Thank you everyone !
Could you teach me how much I have to feed for a Akita Inu puppy 7months and 10months in a day ? How to calculate it ?


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## Springer (Feb 19, 2014)

I find it funny that you are all rating TOTW over Fromm. TOTW has a higher ash content & probably the same amount of meat. I tried the Earthborn Holistic & Cady did well, but 12%+ ash was too high & both other formulas have canola oil, which I stay away from. I am pretty sure TOTW uses canola in most formulas also. I just went through a bag of the new American made Acana Heritage Chicken & she did OK on it, but It has lower protein & fat them Fromm Surf & Turf. I would not use the new heritage fish with all the local bottom feeding fish in it. My dog store isn't even carrying the new Acana, as no one seems to like the changes. It is really hard to pick a food. I would use TOTW again (have a few years ago), but no longer like the oils they use. JMHO


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## doodlebug124 (Oct 31, 2015)

trietakita said:


> Thank you everyone !
> Could you teach me how much I have to feed for a Akita Inu puppy 7months and 10months in a day ? How to calculate it ?


It depends on the food you choose, they all have different calorie content. There will be a chart on the bag...it's a starting place. Feed that amount and monitor their weight closely. If you seen weight gain, reduce the amount of food. If you see weight loss, increase the amount (this assumes the dogs are a good weight to begin with). There is no magic formula for figuring out how much a dog needs to eat as the food, their metabolism and activity levels are all factors that have to be considered.


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

Hiraeth said:


> Yeah, no. Calcium and phosphorous effect the growth of all puppies. However, giant breeds are at a much higher risk of growing pains and defects due to calc/phos levels, which is why they need to be fed between 1-1.5% calcium (the lower the better) and .08-1% phosphorous (the lower the better). It's not a myth. I can link studies to prove it, if you'd really like.
> 
> Puppies also don't grow faster the more calories they eat. They do grow FATTER the more calories they eat, however. My Dane was consuming 4,400 calories a day at one point. If you fed that much to a Lab puppy, there's no way it would grow as fast as my Dane, it would just get fat.



I wish you would stop posting on this topic. You have no idea what you are talking about. Caloric intake is directly related to growth. Your point about comparing a Lab to a Great Dane shows you don't understand this at all.

The studies show increased risk at about 3% calcium, increased risk is different than inevitability. Do you understand this concept? The internet is filled with comments about this point that are completely false. It is a complex subject and one factor is not a cause of skeletal deformation. Neutering too early is much more of a factor than diet because the long bones growth substantially more in puppies neutered too young.

The official guidance for all puppies including Giant Breed puppies is 1.20% - 1.80% DM the guidelines were revised in 2014. The bottom end was increased from 1.0%. The guidelines per 1,000 kcals are 3 - 4.5 grams. 

http://www.aafco.org/Portals/0/Site...osed_Revisions_to_AAFCO_Nutrient_Profiles.pdf


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

trietakita said:


> Thank you everyone !
> Could you teach me how much I have to feed for a Akita Inu puppy 7months and 10months in a day ? How to calculate it ?


This puppy should be on Adult or ALS food at this point. Don't worry about puppy food any more. Feed the dog about 3/4 - 1 gram of protein per pound of full grown body weight. So if a food is 30% protein that means there are about 30 grams in a cup. If the dog should be about 125lb then feed 125/30 or 4.25 cups per day. Get it? If 100lbs at maturity then 100/3 or 3.33 cups. Get it?

That should be about right for this breed. This is just a guide.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

BennySimpson said:


> This puppy should be on Adult or ALS food at this point. Don't worry about puppy food any more. Feed the dog about 3/4 - 1 gram of protein per pound of full grown body weight. So if a food is 30% protein that means there are about 30 grams in a cup. If the dog should be about 125lb then feed 125/30 or 4.25 cups per day. Get it? If 100lbs at maturity then 100/3 or 3.33 cups. Get it?
> 
> That should be about right for this breed. This is just a guide.


Thank you very much ! Its very useful for me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I. . .don't feel like that's quite right. I'm pretty sure my boy would be very skinny if I fed him that way. He's getting 5 cups a day and is at a good weight/condition now. His food has 26% protein. That means 26 grams of protein per 100 grams. Probably most dog foods weigh in at about 100 grams per cup so, sure, we can go with that. Some foods are denser or fluffier though. So he's getting around 131 grams of protein per day, about 1850 calories (he's young, intact, and active). He's a Collie and will never get to 131 pounds! If I gave him only 50-65 grams of protein per day he'd only be getting 2 to 2 1/2 cups, about 800 calories. He'd be a skeleton! 

Google for "dog food calorie calculator". You put in breed, size, age, etc. and it gives you a calorie range to aim for. You may have to tweak it a little for your individual dogs but it gives you a rough estimate.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

BennySimpson said:


> I wish you would stop posting on this topic. You have no idea what you are talking about.


Dude, ditto. 



BennySimpson said:


> Caloric intake is directly related to growth. Your point about comparing a Lab to a Great Dane shows you don't understand this at all.


The studies that show caloric intake and excess calories are related to abnormal growth are know widely acknowledged to have been somewhat misleading. In the studies, excess calorie consumption meant excess calcium/phosphorous consumption, which was the culprit for causing irregular growth. Puppies fed a kibble with a standard amount of calories per cup but a high calc/phos percent and ratio experienced growth abnormalities. Puppies fed an excess amount of kibble and also excess calc/phos amounts experienced growth abnormalities. Puppies fed the recommended calc/phos ratios with excess calories did not experience skeletal abnormalities, they just got fat. 



BennySimpson said:


> The studies show increased risk at about 3% calcium, increased risk is different than inevitability. Do you understand this concept? The internet is filled with comments about this point that are completely false. It is a complex subject and one factor is not a cause of skeletal deformation. Neutering too early is much more of a factor than diet because the long bones growth substantially more in puppies neutered too young.


Neutering early is linked to hip dysplasia, cruciate disease and osteosarcoma (amongst a few other diseases). Excess calcium or feeding the wrong calc/phos ratio is linked to OCD, DOD, Pano and HOD. Totally different diseases. If you knew anything about Great Danes, or giant breeds, you'd know this. 

As it is, I spend hours on Dane forums every week talking to people who are feeding their puppies too much calcium and who experience knuckling and all of the aforementioned diseases. I also talk to breeders and a very experienced DVM who is also a nutritionist. ALL of whom tell people to never exceed 1.5% calcium. 



BennySimpson said:


> The official guidance for all puppies including Giant Breed puppies is 1.20% - 1.80% DM the guidelines were revised in 2014. The bottom end was increased from 1.0%. The guidelines per 1,000 kcals are 3 - 4.5 grams.


Yes, because official guides for AAFCO for giant breeds can account for dogs that range between 110-190 lbs. Oh wait. They can't. 

From IVC, written by Susan Wynn, DVM:



> *1. Make sure the diet is complete and balanced for “all life stages” according to AAFCO guidelines, or if homemade, has been analyzed by a veterinary nutritionist.
> 2. Diets that have been tested in feeding trials are preferred to those that have been formulated according to AAFCO guidelines only.
> 3. Never free feed.
> 4. Keep the puppy lean (4/9 or 5/9).
> ...





BennySimpson said:


> This puppy should be on Adult or ALS food at this point. Don't worry about puppy food any more. Feed the dog about 3/4 - 1 gram of protein per pound of full grown body weight. So if a food is 30% protein that means there are about 30 grams in a cup. If the dog should be about 125lb then feed 125/30 or 4.25 cups per day. Get it? If 100lbs at maturity then 100/3 or 3.33 cups. Get it?
> 
> That should be about right for this breed. This is just a guide.


This is also completely inaccurate. According to this, I should have fed my puppy HALF of what I was feeding him at five months of age. Also, different dogs have different metabolisms, energy levels, and intake needs. There ARE Danes of the same age and size as Titan who eat 2/3s of what he does and they are also in fine body condition. 



Willowy said:


> I. . .don't feel like that's quite right. I'm pretty sure my boy would be very skinny if I fed him that way. He's getting 5 cups a day and is at a good weight/condition now. His food has 26% protein. That means 26 grams of protein per 100 grams. Probably most dog foods weigh in at about 100 grams per cup so, sure, we can go with that. Some foods are denser or fluffier though. So he's getting around 131 grams of protein per day, about 1850 calories (he's young, intact, and active). He's a Collie and will never get to 131 pounds! If I gave him only 50-65 grams of protein per day he'd only be getting 2 to 2 1/2 cups, about 800 calories. He'd be a skeleton!


Yup. The math doesn't work for any of my four dogs.

People should feed puppies starting with the bag recommendations and then increase/decrease according to body condition, not use some weird protein-based formula that doesn't account for breed, growth rate, or individual metabolism.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

BennySimpson said:


> I wish you would stop posting on this topic. You have no idea what you are talking about. Caloric intake is directly related to growth. Your point about comparing a Lab to a Great Dane shows you don't understand this at all.
> 
> The studies show increased risk at about 3% calcium, increased risk is different than inevitability. Do you understand this concept? The internet is filled with comments about this point that are completely false. It is a complex subject and one factor is not a cause of skeletal deformation. Neutering too early is much more of a factor than diet because the long bones growth substantially more in puppies neutered too young.
> 
> ...


I don't know why this upsets you so much because it's not actually harmful to look for a high quality food that falls within the levels Hiraeth recommends. Even if you were right and it didn't matter it still causes no harm. I wish you would stop commenting because you're rude and pretend your *opinion* (full of false blanket statements) is the end all be all. It's really off-putting.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

Every time I see BennySimpson posting, I tune in and grab the popcorn, lol.

I hope, OP, that you are able to sift through these posts and be steered in the right direction by many rather than the wrong direction by one. Just like I hope anyone who may come across this thread in the future is able to pick through the useless, biased, outdated information that a certain poster is trying to shove down everyone's throats.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> I. . .don't feel like that's quite right. I'm pretty sure my boy would be very skinny if I fed him that way. He's getting 5 cups a day and is at a good weight/condition now. His food has 26% protein. That means 26 grams of protein per 100 grams. Probably most dog foods weigh in at about 100 grams per cup so, sure, we can go with that. Some foods are denser or fluffier though. So he's getting around 131 grams of protein per day, about 1850 calories (he's young, intact, and active). He's a Collie and will never get to 131 pounds! If I gave him only 50-65 grams of protein per day he'd only be getting 2 to 2 1/2 cups, about 800 calories. He'd be a skeleton!
> 
> Google for "dog food calorie calculator". You put in breed, size, age, etc. and it gives you a calorie range to aim for. You may have to tweak it a little for your individual dogs but it gives you a rough estimate.


Wow, that's a whole lot more protein than that "recommendation"! I know you really can't over do protein, but I know you can feed too little of it. My dog is about 6.5 lbs, spayed, 9 years old and a couch potato. Her current food gives her a little over 8 grams of protein a day. The amount she eats is pretty tiny as she gains so easily. Does this sound like too little protein?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I've never paid attention to protein before (well, if choosing between 2 similar foods I might choose the one with higher protein) . I've always just fed the amount that keeps my dogs in good condition. If your dog is healthy and looks good don't worry about it. I was just disputing the recommendation to give a young Akita only 3 cups of food. Very few foods will have enough calories for that to be enough.

My older dogs eat approximately the amount of protein recommended by BennySimpson. But they're spayed, older, and not very active.


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## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

Hireath, please stop posting on this subject. You are just cutting and pasting things. I really don't care about the time you spend on Great Dane forums.

The troubles with that breed have very little to do with mineral levels rather it is genetics. If you knew anything about dogs you would know this.

So again, the "safe" range is 1.20 - 1.80% and 3 - 4.5 grams per 1,000 kcals.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

BennySimpson said:


> If you knew anything about dogs you would know this.


You're embarrassing yourself, acting like that. :laugh:

Rude, mean bravado as a smoke screen for the fact that your info is outdated and not really relevant to the OP. When everyone else on this forum manages to play pretty nice and respectfully disagree about way more heated and important topics than this, I think I'm going to have to conclude that the problem is you. :wink:

And even if you were right, your smug attitude is undermining the points you're trying to make. At this point, I don't trust a word you say. Whereas Hiraeth has a decent reputation around here.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

BennySimpson said:


> Hireath, please stop posting on this subject. You are just cutting and pasting things. I really don't care about the time you spend on Great Dane forums.
> 
> The troubles with that breed have very little to do with mineral levels rather it is genetics. If you knew anything about dogs you would know this.
> 
> So again, the "safe" range is 1.20 - 1.80% and 3 - 4.5 grams per 1,000 kcals.


Unless you'd like to apply to be a moderator for this website, which I highly doubt would be approved, you have no right to ask people to stop posting on threads. Especially people who happen to have more knowledge than you and who are combating your outdated and inaccurate information for both the OP and future posters.


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## trietakita (Jun 17, 2016)

Hi guys !
I very appreciate all of you. Thank for giving me a lot of useful advice. I just want everyone make a happy discussion.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

The 'instigator' seems to have been banned. I'm glad you were able to get some decent information from the helpful posts!


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

The sad thing is that there's a serious lack of long-term feeding studies, and great abundance of marketing bravado. Scientifically sound studies are expensive and difficult to conduct, and the outcomes may be difficult to interpret (eg., how does a study conducted with beagles transfer to miniature or giant breeds? How many breeds do you need to study? Are some bloodlines within a breed different than others?).

There are many verifiable stories about individual dogs living long healthy lives on cheap, supermarket brand dog foods and table scraps (I had a 21 year old dog next door who still did walkies and wasn't blind, deaf, or incontinent . . . fed 'crap' foods all his life). 

There is also a fair accumulation of evidence that dog food manufacturers aren't always honest about what they include in their ingredients, and monitoring of dog food production is pretty week. 

My own bottom line is I DON'T KNOW! I avoid the high profile brands that seem to be charging extra for advertising and unsubstantiated claims. My dogs stay pretty healthy on mid price-range tried and true brands (ProPlan, Eukanuba, etc.) and avoid the parade of noisy new brands such as TOTW, ANaca and Fromm. When I see these brands doing 10 year feeding trials, I'll be glad to re-think.

There's so much B.S. out there. Sigh!!!!

The one thing on which there does seem to be good evidence is overfeeding: too much is BAD. If your dog is getting fat, cut down the quantities fed.


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

TOTW, Acana, and Fromm have minimal or even no advertising. Fromm is hardly a new brand. Not sure what you're trying to say here, it doesn't apply.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I partially agree with Sandgrubber that marketing on some brands is over the top; I won't call it advertising per se because that implies internet/magazines/Tv/Radio spots (interestingly, I have just recently started hearing radio ads for Advantage Multi, never heard dog meds on the radio before). But marketing is more in terms of claims of superiority or better sourced meat etc. Most of which are a bit dubious.

However, I would not at all put Fromm into this category--


> avoid the parade of noisy new brands such as TOTW, ANaca and Fromm.


-- as they have been producing kibble for a good 60+ years. I quite like the Classic line for value and digestibility.

That said, IMO, the best commercial food is the one that works well for your dog, fits your budget, and is produced/sold by a company that you feel at least OK with. Cost alone does not equal "better" at all.


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## doodlebug124 (Oct 31, 2015)

sandgrubber said:


> My own bottom line is I DON'T KNOW! I avoid the high profile brands that seem to be charging extra for advertising and unsubstantiated claims. My dogs stay pretty healthy on mid price-range tried and true brands (ProPlan, Eukanuba, etc.) and avoid the parade of noisy new brands such as TOTW, ANaca and Fromm. When I see these brands doing 10 year feeding trials, I'll be glad to re-think.


What is a "true brand"? ProPlan is owned by Purina, Eukanuba is owned by Mars. Both are companies that do tons of advertising and make all kinds of "interesting" claims. 

Taste of the Wild has been around 9 years, Fromm over 60 years and Champion (Acana) over 40 years. Eukanuba 47 years. And I couldn't find when ProPlan was introduced. So I wouldn't exactly call Fromm and Champion "noisy new brands". And how are they noisy when they don't do any advertising? 

10 year feeding trials? Fromm and Champion have great track records...the number of excellent reviews and dogs doing great on these foods for well over 10 years is testament enough that they're good products. On the other hand, there are tons of anecdotal stories about Purina and Mars products making dogs sick.


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## crysania (Oct 1, 2010)

Abady looks like any other higher quality kibble. Not seeing the big deal unless this person is just a sales person for it?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

crysania said:


> Abady looks like any other higher quality kibble. Not seeing the big deal unless this person is just a sales person for it?


The kibble seems pretty average. I think it's the granular type that's a "big deal". It's very nutrient-dense (800-something calories per cup!) and mostly animal products. Like canned food without the water. I want to try it for cats but I'm trying to find a supplier that doesn't change a ton for shipping and can't :/. Boo. I wonder if the feed store would special-order it?


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## doodlebug124 (Oct 31, 2015)

It has the high calorie count because of it's ground up texture, it's tightly packed together with much less air than a standard kibble. If you took a kibble like Orijen and ground it up it, a cup would probably be around 800 calories too. 

Abady is a confusing food for me. On one hand they're defining some ingredients as human grade and/or organic. On the other they're using poultry by-product meal and beef meat and bone meal, two ingredients I'm not really comfortable with because we really have no idea what goes into them. We also don't know if these come from animals that passed USDA inspection. 

Abady doesn't have much of a distribution network, it's probably unlikely that a feed store can get it for you but you can ask.


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## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

BennySimpson said:


> I wish you would stop posting on this topic. You have no idea what you are talking about. Caloric intake is directly related to growth. Your point about comparing a Lab to a Great Dane shows you don't understand this at all.
> 
> *The studies show increased risk at about 3% calcium*, increased risk is different than inevitability. Do you understand this concept? The internet is filled with comments about this point that are completely false. It is a complex subject and one factor is not a cause of skeletal deformation. *Neutering too early is much more of a factor than diet because the long bones growth substantially more in puppies neutered too young*.
> 
> ...



Sorry, have you ever owned a giant breed? Your completely wrong with 3% calcium, though the 2nd bolded is true it has nothing to do with feeding.
The ratio's in giant breeds have been proven many times.


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