# Just A Note For Those With Dogs



## PackLeaderPride (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm sure pretty much anyone out there with a dog knows that Cesar Millan has taken a lot of heat because of his methods in the ever-increasing political correctness of the positive-methods only dog training world. I am all for positive-based training, believe me. I've used it on my dogs before & I will continue to do so with each & every dog I take into my home. 
I believe everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, everyone is entitled to voice his or her opinion, & thus if you've decided that Cesar's methods aren't for you & your dog, then that's perfectly fine, no one's saying you *have* to train your dog a certain way. However, please don't criticize the people who have chosen to use his methods. We know & believe that dogs are living beings that deserve respect, kindness, & love just like any human being does, but just because we believe that love is not the only thing a dog needs & just because we believe that dogs aren't humans _*does not *_we are dog haters or dog abusers or we don't love our dogs. We love our dogs immensely & will do anything we can to make sure they are happy, healthy, & well-balanced, including giving them a little tough love & discipline when needed. And please don't criticize Cesar, either. He is a good man & he, too, cares about his dogs. Why do you think he chose to go into the dog training business if he doesn't love dogs? 
I understand that people can have different opinions from your own & I genuinely respect yours, so please, respect ours. You can raise & train your own dog how ever you want, but don't call us dog haters because we choose to raise, train, & treat our dogs the way they would be raised, trained, & treated in the wild. Don't call us dog abusers or "mean" because we teach our dogs to heel without the use of treats & to listen to us & obey us, because we are the alpha & they are not. We know that dogs have a deep-seated need for leadership & direction, & we know that a dog, no matter how smart, is not able to lead humans, because we know of the stress & behavioral issues that can come from trying to lead humans & having followers that don't consistently listen to your orders, & we wish to save our dogs from that stress. We choose to be kind to our dogs & respect their identity as _dogs, not humans._ that said, we hate it & it tears us up inside when you call us dog abusers or dog haters because we follow Cesar or we choose to be pack leader or dominant over our dogs, but we know that the best way to save face is to keep the lower half of it closed, so we won't say anything. Besides, we know that many owners have become set in their ways beliefs, so we know it's fruitless to try & educate them on natural dog behavior.
A true follower of Cesar will never hit or kick their dog or yell at it, because we know that such methods are
A) ineffective, because dogs do not hit, kick, or yell at each other, &
B) such treatment can & most often will make the dog afraid of you, totally canceling out any chance of having a positive, rewarding relationship. However, many think that Cesar's methods are "too harsh" because he hits dogs or kicks them. Cesar does not kick or hit, he will touch by poking a dog in the neck to simulate a bite, or he will tap ("kick", many think) a dog on the hindquarter to snap it out of an escalating behavior. We choose to emulate these behaviors because they are close to what dogs will do with each other in the wild. Dogs can't & never will learn to speak human, but we can learn to speak dog. 
I chose to post this because I just want to put this info out there to try to educate people & give them a chance to enter the close, tight-knit circle of Cesar believers. However, you choose to continue calling us dog abusers, dog haters, or anti-dog. Please, try to educate yourself before you call us dog haters. We would really appreciate it.

Signed,
PLP, on behalf of all the dog psychologists & Cesar believers (& Cesar himself), out there. WE ARE PROUD TO BE TRUE PACK LEADERS!


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

And now my month is complete, a Cesar Milan thread!!!!:doh: opcorn: :frusty:


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> And now my month is complete, a Cesar Milan thread!!!!:doh: opcorn: :frusty:


pass the popcorn!


----------



## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm speechless.


----------



## PackLeaderPride (Jul 22, 2011)

MegaMuttMom said:


> I'm speechless.


I hope i didn't offend you *cringe* I didn't mean to.:redface:

Can I ask what's up with the popcorn?


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think you offended anyone. Rather, we find this thread kind of silly, considering people here don't tend to call Cesar Milan fans "dog abusers" or "dog haters." You posted this rant for nothing!


----------



## Britt & Bello (Apr 14, 2011)

-erased my severely sarcastic remark- 

What possessed you to write this?


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I don't think people who use Cesars methods are abusers, I think they are mislead by a flashy TV show, Cesars pretty smile and hollywood glam.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> I don't think people who use Cesars methods are abusers, I think they are mislead by a flashy TV show, Cesars pretty smile and hollywood glam.


I think the same can be said with Victoria Stilwell and any other television dog trainers. 

This part applies to the general pop and the OP

I think that anyone who trains their dogs based on what a television personality says is severely misguided. 
I actually had someone tell me " Victoria Stillwell says that you should give treats when dogs do that to stop them." and my dog was growling and snapping at the other dog (obviously it would have actually reinforced the snapping). The woman was actually suggesting I treat my dog for aggression because she saw something on Its me or the dog and tried to apply it to every other situation. 

The key point is that it works for Victoria because she is a professional, she knows what will and what will not work for a dog, she knows that dogs are not a one size fits all deal and she uses her positive methods fitted to each dog to train them.

I don't remember the episode but she came on after a commercial and said she would have never used a toy if she knew the dog was toy aggressive (which the owner failed to mention) and anyone who sees the first half of that show but missed the second half and tries what she did will probably have a bite scare. I have a lot of respect for her just for that episode because she came on and said that instead of just cutting it out of the episode.

I'm not saying that you cant take a hint or two from tv shows, but basing your whole training method on what you see on TV is ridiculous.


----------



## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

what the heck is going on here these days? All we need now is a Brad Pattinson thread, and the holy how-many-ity will be complete.

No one has called Cesar, or his "followers" (now, that sounds like a sect!) dog abusers or any such things. The often agreed-with opinion is that it is a tv show, and the methods described and used on it are old and can be dangerous when emulated by Joe-anybody. There are more effective ways to train a dog, and the theory on which the old dominance/submission method is based on has been disproven a long time ago.

Now, please pass the popcorn!


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You're right, Meshkenet... if we get a Brad thread today, I might win this game!


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Wow, haven't seen a CM thread in a while.
I too am curious why this new poster would just pop up and rant about anyone calling CM fans abusers. But then again, the passive aggressive stance of the comments about positive trainers...it's not like a pot calling a kettle black?

I'm not sure what the point is.

CM's methods are based on outdated and incorrect science.
But then I'm a cookie tosser...so what do I know...

Crantastic??? That is MOST AWESOME!


----------



## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> You're right, Meshkenet... if we get a Brad thread today, I might win this game!


Not to burst your bubble, Crantastic, but you'd still need a wolf-dog thread, a Purina thread, one on the HSUS and (WTH???) frog dogs?!?

Now I have this weird image in my head!


----------



## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> You're right, Meshkenet... if we get a Brad thread today, I might win this game!


What is frog dog?


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Well, French bulldogs are sometimes affectionately referred to as frog dogs, but for the purposes of DF Hot Topics Bingo, we're talking about the derogatory term for American German Shepherds.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

oh i wouldnt say dog abusers...

id more go with ill informed and using methods and adhering to theories that have been scientifically debunked.

tv dog training is stupid.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KodiBarracuda said:


> I think the same can be said with Victoria Stilwell and any other television dog trainers.


Very very true, but Stillwell isn't the topic here.

The fact is there is alot with any TV show we don't see whether it's a 'reality' show like Cesars or Stillwells (or any of the other 100's out there) or a fictional show. 

If you want to learn training techniques, go to a trainer and learn first hand. If you're running into a behavior problem go to a veterinary behaviorist, trying to fix it yourself without professional guidance is like trying to remove a splinter blindfolded.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Very very true, but Stillwell isn't the topic here.
> 
> The fact is there is alot with any TV show we don't see whether it's a 'reality' show like Cesars or Stillwells (or any of the other 100's out there) or a fictional show.
> 
> If you want to learn training techniques, go to a trainer and learn first hand. If you're running into a behavior problem go to a veterinary behaviorist, trying to fix it yourself without professional guidance is like trying to remove a splinter blindfolded.


That is EXACTLY what I was saying, thank you, I am glad someone understands. It really irks me when people come up and tell me to alpha roll because my dog is being snippy and it also irks me when people tell me to shove cookies in her face when my dog is being snippy (not on forums, in RL) I wanna tell them to go watch some more TV and leave the training of other peoples dogs to people who actually know more than what we see on TV.



> the passive aggressive stance of the comments about positive trainers...it's not like a pot calling a kettle black?


I sure hope this wasn't directed towards me, I am in no way even suggesting that positive trainers are anything but wonderful, I just don't like TV trainers personally.

As for frog dogs, I was thinking when dogs lay down and splay their back legs out behind them in "frog position"
Like this









And if I'm not mistaken Crantastic , you could win with the line N and on 4 corners. 

Side note, I need to learn the stupid buttons so I can stop hand coding these posts.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

KodiBarracuda;1040950I said:


> sure hope this wasn't directed towards me, I am in no way even suggesting that positive trainers are anything but wonderful


No, I think this was directed to the part in the OP--(paraphrased) "we respect your methods, we want you to respect ours. . .we just want our dogs to not have stress and treat them like dogs not humans!". Implying, or course, that positive trainers don't want their dogs to not have stress and aren't treating them like dogs. Which is not respectful. Making passive-aggressive comments like that belies any claim to be showing respect.

I, too, see no point in joining a forum just to rant about Cesar. If someone joined a forum, participated, saw a lot of Cesar-bashing, then I could understand it. But randomly jumping in like that without really knowing the forum members' general opinions on the subjects? Interesting.

And it's probably not the best idea to sign anything "from all believers (that does sound like a cult!) /followers/members/etc.". There's no way that one person's opinion can represent the opinions of an entire group. Unless, of course, they were hired to represent that group. But that seems unlikely. And there's a possibility of hearing from Cesar's lawyers when you sign it "on his behalf" as well.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Yes, Willowy, you are correct. The comment was directed at the OP, not at KodiBarracuda.

KodiBarracuda..is that your Bull terrier froggin it? I love that breed. They can be very funny dogs.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

Nope, sorry, just a google picture to show an example. I personally don't care much for the bull breeds, but that one was pretty cute. 
I just have an ACD an Aussie and a Schnauzer/Poodle cross, nothing too special (well, they are very special to me, but you know what I mean.)

And oh thank goodness that wasn't directed at me, I wouldn't want people getting the wrong impression of what I was saying. 

Positive reinforcement = thumbs up
Cesar = eh, he has some points (rules boundaries and limitation, exercised dogs are happy dogs,), but alpha rolls are silly as are some of the other things. If you want us to treat the dogs like dogs, then I want to be treated like a human, and humans don't bite, they don't bite other humans and they don't bite dogs.
Tv trainers= thumbs down.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I'm too old and too tired to make it through a solid block of text like that.

Did I miss anything? Are there Cliff Notes available?


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

eh, pretty much

1.Don't dis Cesar
2. His methods are amazing and work
3. He doesn't abuse animals, he just bites them with his hand and taps them with his foot.

Did I miss anything?


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

It's funny because every forum has it's own spicyness rating with regards to hot topics. The one I used to be on (can't find it anymore) would jump down your throat at the slightest support of Caesar Millan, prong collars etc... PackLeaderPride, maybe you should search out that forum 
But honestly, I was very pleasantly surprised when I saw that people here were giving advice as to how to use a prong collar correctly and safely, rather than jumping at the owner for even daring to use such a training tool. (to cite one example)
Though I have noticed topics on this forum draw more fire than it would on other forums. Meh.

Oh right, we're talking about Caesar! Uh... I don't watch much TV, but I hear he's a nice guy


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Kodi>> I love that look on that BT's face, it totally looks like he's "LOL'ing" . 

Mr. Salad there are good points about him some of the things he plugs are good, tho I become mildly offended at the way he puts them into context (weather its intentional or not). From an objective point of view he seems to have a prob with women holding positions of authority or power, though he urgently says otherwise... A little TOO urgently if you ask me.

I also have issues when he starts spouting "facts" about breeds that are like... Totally false. I remember one earlier ep where he recruited someone with a dog hr called an "Australian shepherd" when it was clearly a cattle dog... LOL. Also there was a few EPs with ACDs where his "methods" of pushing, blocking & claiming didn't work. Lol you can't back up an ACD like you csn any other type of dog back up isn't in this breeds vocab.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

A friend of mine went to a live CM show when he was here a while back. She said she was very unimpressed and clearly the tv show is highly edited.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> Signed,
> PLP, on behalf of all the dog psychologists & Cesar believers (& Cesar himself), out there. WE ARE PROUD TO BE TRUE PACK LEADERS!


How could someone who follows another, with such apparent and extreme devotion, consider themselves to be a "leader" in any way shape or form ?

Does anyone else see the irony ?


If you TRULY want to be a leader, then I suggest losing the minion act and invent your own unique method of training.


----------



## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)




----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I like Ceasar's teeth.


----------



## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> I like Ceasar's teeth.


He does have a cute smile


----------



## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> You can raise & train your own dog how ever you want, but don't call us dog haters because we choose to raise, train, & treat our dogs the way they would be raised, trained, & treated in the wild.


The last I heard, no one has ever studied how Cavaliers were raised, trained and treated "in the wild".....so where does that leave me???






> He does have a cute smile


He has a great smile. He is living the "rags to riches" American dream.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

So, not saying I approve of the entire Caesar methodology, many point out that it is based upon old research. Has there been any research to refute it? I mean scientific research, not general observations of trainers (not that those aren't valid, but I'm just curious about hard science research). I'm not criticizing those who use this argument, I'm legitimately curious. 
I am largely of the positive reinforcement mentality, but this is partially because it works for my dog (eventually). Alpha roll....heh....we have found that almost ANY physical confrontation with our pup (yes, we have tried a couple times, not alpha roll, not hard, but confrontation nonetheless) makes her go NUTS and her behavior WILL escalate badly. Those kind of Caesar methods just plain old wouldn't work on her, and the fact that she will likely be in the 100lb range could place us in a dangerous situation if we tried those methods consistently. Perhaps they would work for a while, but at what point would she decide that she had plain old had enough....scary thought! The downside to positive reinforcement training for anybody, with any dog IMO is that it can take a LONG time (dependent on the dog of course). When it comes to training, it is what works for the owner, and their dog. I respect other people's training methods and their right to use them (aside from real physical intimidation), but I wouldn't respect them if they told me that I had to use them on my dog!

Oh, and I want to say I agree with everybody who is saying that "followers", "believers" etc. does make it sound cultish (and kinda creepy) lol. but I how else exactly does a person say that they follow his training methods in short form....


----------



## mustlovedogs123 (Mar 23, 2011)

I am a big Cesar fan and I also realise it is television! I do believe that if you are dealing with a serious behavior problem you must get proffesional help and not just go by what you see on tv as every dog is very different and even Cesar show comes up with this statement before it begins!! On that note I like his methodes in the fact that he rarely uses treats and instead rewards a dog with affection or play as well as energy! everyone is intitled to their own opinion and i would never disagree with someones training methodes unless they are hurting or abusing the dog in anyway!


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Greater Swiss said:


> So, not saying I approve of the entire Caesar methodology, many point out that it is based upon old research. Has there been any research to refute it? I mean scientific research, not general observations of trainers (not that those aren't valid, but I'm just curious about hard science research). I'm not criticizing those who use this argument, I'm legitimately curious.
> I am largely of the positive reinforcement mentality, but this is partially because it works for my dog (eventually). Alpha roll....heh....we have found that almost ANY physical confrontation with our pup (yes, we have tried a couple times, not alpha roll, not hard, but confrontation nonetheless) makes her go NUTS and her behavior WILL escalate badly. Those kind of Caesar methods just plain old wouldn't work on her, and the fact that she will likely be in the 100lb range could place us in a dangerous situation if we tried those methods consistently. Perhaps they would work for a while, but at what point would she decide that she had plain old had enough....scary thought! The downside to positive reinforcement training for anybody, with any dog IMO is that it can take a LONG time (dependent on the dog of course). When it comes to training, it is what works for the owner, and their dog. I respect other people's training methods and their right to use them (aside from real physical intimidation), but I wouldn't respect them if they told me that I had to use them on my dog!
> 
> Oh, and I want to say I agree with everybody who is saying that "followers", "believers" etc. does make it sound cultish (and kinda creepy) lol. but I how else exactly does a person say that they follow his training methods in short form....


 
Yes, tons and tons, some old and some new. Much by the the person who first wrote about pack conduct in the first place. I don't have time to write about it right now as I'm geting ready to go out with the fam.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

This is the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour site. Both positions statements have references at the bottom of studies etc. 

If you would like to know about where other behaviourists, trainers and veterinary doctors stand...check out
http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/


The wolf researcher: David Mech


----------



## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> How could someone who follows another, with such apparent and extreme devotion, consider themselves to be a "leader" in any way shape or form ?
> 
> Does anyone else see the irony ?
> 
> ...


 We have a stuffed Minion on the wall (from the Movie) it is really cute the dogs love chewing on it hence its position on the wall--
Hey I watch Cesar Milan and Victoria Stillwell... They're not the Gospel but entertaining ---
This thread is getting Spicy!
And my giant schnauzer frogs it too -- so cute!


----------



## PackLeaderPride (Jul 22, 2011)

I had a Lab pup that used to upside-down frog. I'd walk into the kitchen late at night & look in her crate. She's be lying on her back, forelegs tucked in, & her hind legs splayed out. It was really cute. 
As to following Cesar, I just realized how cultish it sounds to call oneself as "Cesar follower", but I was trying to find a shortened term other than "someone who uses Cesdar's methods". 
Like I said, train your dog how ever you want. I will continue using Cesar's methods with every dog I adopt from this point forward, because his methods have worked with my dog. It's not dog _training_ it's dog _psychology studying the mind, behavior, body language, & instincts of the dog. Cesar is not a dog trainer, he is a dog rehabilitator, he's stated that himself._


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

PackLeaderPride said:


> I had a Lab pup that used to upside-down frog. I'd walk into the kitchen late at night & look in her crate. She's be lying on her back, forelegs tucked in, & her hind legs splayed out. It was really cute.
> As to following Cesar, I just realized how cultish it sounds to call oneself as "Cesar follower", but I was trying to find a shortened term other than "someone who uses Cesdar's methods".
> Like I said, train your dog how ever you want. I will continue using Cesar's methods with every dog I adopt from this point forward, because his methods have worked with my dog. It's not dog _training_ it's dog _psychology studying the mind, behavior, body language, & instincts of the dog. Cesar is not a dog trainer, he is a dog rehabilitator, he's stated that himself._


_

so where exactly did Cesar get his degree in canine ethology again?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethology_


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So why do your dogs need rehabilitating?


----------



## Britt & Bello (Apr 14, 2011)

> So why do your dogs need rehabilitating?


This. ^

My dogs have never tried to dominate me. So I wouldn't say that is an instinct. Also it bugs me alot that because his methods worked for ONE of your dogs you are now determined to use it for all your future dogs. You do realize that if there is one thing about dogs it is that no training method works for them all and it scares me that you will be so determined to use his methods that you will ruin a dog, and refuse to try anything else. 

And while we are on the topic of things Ceaser has said. He also says do not try any of his methods with out a professional. Have you consulted a proffessional?


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Yeah, if he only rehabilitates dogs, then his methods on ALL dogs is sort of silly. Not all dogs need to be rehabilitated. I have all rescues as well and only one needed to be "rehabilitated" the rest needed to be trained. Rehabilitation is basically returning something to good condition. A dog that is DA, or uncontrolled prey drive, or any thing in that vein isn't in bad condition. They're just dogs.


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Hey, I whisper to my dogs all the time...so I am the Dog Whisperer 

In all honesty, before i knew better, I though CM was awesome. And then I read other things...and watched other things...and contacted trainers...and a behaviorist (with actual degrees for it). 

It clearly states that no one should try the methods they see on the show at home without consulting a professional. And all the professionals I have have NOT endorsed the methods. In fact, my first trainer made a clear point to say that since the start of "certain dog related shows" he say an influx of people kicking the dog and saying "shhhh" through stores.

I guess what works for you warks for you, but I also know that if CM did any of the things to Gracie or Gizmo that he did to some of the dogs on his show as an owner I would be LIVID.


----------



## crazy5 (Dec 17, 2010)

I got called to a family home one day because they just adopted a new dog from the shelter and it bit the mom leaving her with five stitches. I asked what led up to the dog biting and she told me he was in the garbage so she did the Cesar bite to the neck with her hand because she always watches that show. Good thing she was watching that one, it is just to bad the dog missed it!


----------



## Belda (Apr 27, 2011)

After watching the short video of David Mech speaking about Alpha and the Breeding Pair. He seemed as if he was 'edging his bets' during the talk. Do the Breeding Pair wear badges to express their position to the others? The instinct and desire to mate is strong. Perhaps Mr. Mech might explain how they ensure that an orgy of activity does not ensue? (Remembering of course that they are not an Alpha pair but a Breeding Pair). They simply provide the baby wolves. Presumably - unlike an Alpha - they do not assert any kind of authority, because obviously there is no such thing as the Alpha, so they are not Alpha, but the Breeding Pair. Perhaps the Pack (or would Group be preferred) generally have a low sex-drive.


Belda


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Maybe instead of basing your opinion of the man and his conclusions on a short YouTube video, you should read this long study that he links on his website.

And the purple font is hand on the eyes; we all tend to use the default font here.


----------



## Belda (Apr 27, 2011)

I have surely asked a perfectly normal question based on Mr. Mech's views on Alpha and Breeding Pair. So many people have jumped on his view and suggestion, because it suits so perfectly with their own preferences to dog behaviour and our appropriate interaction. However, I do not hold with just Mr. Mech's opinion. (He is not the only Wolf experienced expert either). I throw my net extremely wide to gather information, as hopefully others do too. 


Belda


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Belda said:


> I have surely asked a perfectly normal question based on Mr. Mech's views on Alpha and Breeding Pair. So many people have jumped on his view and suggestion, because it suits so perfectly with their own preferences to dog behaviour and our appropriate interaction. However, I do not hold with just Mr. Mech's opinion. (He is not the only Wolf experienced expert either). I throw my net extremely wide to gather information, as hopefully others do too.
> 
> 
> Belda


The most imortant thing to remember here is that dogs are NOT wolves. They are dogs. Domesticated animals. Unless you have a high content wolf dog, much (if not all) of the alpha stuff is not going to do anyone any good.


----------



## Belda (Apr 27, 2011)

The wolf DNA is in every dog. You take away a dog's right to live as a Pack animal, that recognises and lives with respect of the hierarchy, that is natural to their thinking and acting, then you strip a dog bare! 

Requiring an Owner to at least have a senior position (not necessarily _Alpha_) - respects the dog in giving him/her a trusting leadership figure.


Belda


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You say you do not hold with Mr. Mech's opinion and that there are other wolf-experienced experts out there who (presumably) disagree with him. I would be interested in reading what they have to say -- can you link me to some of their studies?

Also, we've had the "alpha vs. leader" discussion around these parts before (here's just one of those instances). I don't think anyone disagreed that dogs should have a strong leadership figure. Does that mean they need to be treated like (some people's idea of) wolves? No.

I like what Ian Dunbar says here. Patricia McConnell also has a neat section on wolf behavior (and how domestic dogs are very different from wolves) in her book _The Other End of the Leash_. They are both applied animal behaviorists, which means they have advanced graduate degrees in the science of animal behavior (and are therefore much more qualified than your average trainer).


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Belda said:


> The wolf DNA is in every dog. You take away a dog's right to live as a Pack animal, that recognises and lives with respect of the hierarchy, that is natural to their thinking and acting, then you strip a dog bare!
> 
> Requiring an Owner to at least have a senior position (not necessarily _Alpha_) - respects the dog in giving him/her a trusting leadership figure.
> 
> ...


Yes, a dog is a pack animal, but my dog is not a wolf. And, if there is ANY wolf DNA in there, it traces back over 100,000 years at least.

Dogs should be treated as dogs, not wolves. If we wanted to treat them as wolves, we should set them free and let them hunt.

I agree with Crantastic--I would like to see some research studies if you have them.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

http://www.cleardogtraining.com/old...y-debra-millikin&option=com_content&Itemid=12
A good article with good references to check.

None of these people say aggression NEVER occurs, but that conflict resolution using ritualized behaviour (calming signals, warnings, body postures) etc is how the pack maintains a healthy dynamic. This is still true when it comes to dogs as well. So there ARE similiarities in canine communication across the board...BUT domesticated dogs are far and away a different animal than wolves are, thousands of years of selecting (both natural and people induced) for companion and working traits has seen to that.

To answer your mating question: wolves that are of sexual maturity generally either stay and help raise/protect the next generation or leave the pack and go start their own. Wolves that try to "overthrow" the breeding pair are aggressively dissuaded, this is the actually a good example of the true "dominance"...dominance in scientific terms is about repeated access to resources and is relational, it means between two individuals..if one repeatedly is successful in attaining the resources at hand then he is 'dominant' over the other individual. Mating rights are a highly valued resource. Sometimes if food is plenty, you will see increased ability for some of the other members of the pack to mate and reproduce. Again, it is all about resources. 

Ergo, if you want to be scientifically correct in being "dominant" over your dog..all you have to do is Nothing in Life is Free. You control the resources.


----------



## Belda (Apr 27, 2011)

Is your knowledge of the wolf purely based on Mr. David Mech? Have you not been interested to research further? Is Mr. Mech the only Wolf authority that you have experience of?

Obviously if you are happy to put a full stop after David Mech, than that is your perogative. But to open the field of further knowledge is surely far more educating?


Belda


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Belda said:


> Is your knowledge of the wolf purely based on Mr. David Mech? Have you not been interested to research further? Is Mr. Mech the only Wolf authority that you have experience of?
> 
> Obviously if you are happy to put a full stop after David Mech, than that is your perogative. But to open the field of further knowledge is surely far more educating?
> 
> ...


Yes. That is why both theyogachick and I have asked you to link us to studies that disagree with Mr. Mech's. We will happily read, and then we can discuss further!


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

actually i COMPLETELY disagree with the stupid leader crap. 

why? because of the thing where dog social structure isnt linear.

Belda is it?

if you think dogs and wolves are the same, youre wrong. there's a reason theyre classed as different subspecies. subspecies and species distinctions are based on the frequency and significance of reproductive barriers. one of the reproductive barriers between wolves and dogs is BEHAVIOR. (And no, i dont solely get my info from Mech. im a biology major and this stuff is very basic science.) wolves and dogs are behaviorally different enough that it is a preventative to crossbreeding. 

dogs..do not follow the type of linear hierarchy scheme that is attributed to them. they tend towards loose, temporary packs as dictated by need and the "leader" is pretty much never the same dog twice...if they even have a leader at all and arent instead inclined to be more like a mob. 

in relation to humans..whoever is 'top' is a matter of perspective. you may think youre the "leader" while your dog considers you to be an adequate slave. the whole leader bit of stuff is a subjective opinion and the only purpose it serves is to make humans feels special.


----------



## Belda (Apr 27, 2011)

9/10ths of the Pack/Group leave because they are intent on breeding! 1% remain because they have been _'persuaded'_ not to breed by a non-authoritative Breeding Pair!!!! Not much of a Pack/Group remaining!

The dog/wolf, Alpha/Alpha not, Pack/non Pack, etc., the argument often appears to crop up on Forums, particularly where problems and issues are concerned, and advice given that is _preferable_ at the time. Now you cannot have your bread buttered on both sides!

For some reason the idea of Alpha/Senior Member seems to be based on being aggressive, walking through doors first, eating before a dog and not letting him/her on furniture. Strange how these ideas do not actually come from Authority and Leadership Trainers, but from Reward Treat Trainers! 

Last year I was in contact with an Organisation that was engaged on guiding Obedience Instructors to obtain a higher level through Theory and Practical Study. My initial communication was something related only to the dogs. However, I then made the suggestion to the Organisers, that why not include the Instructors dogs during the Theory work, as they worked at their desks, which could then be part of their Practical, displaying their good control with their dogs in this setting. The communication was suddenly finished. But why? If these _experienced_ Instructors were wanting to extend their abilities, then this was an excellent opportunity to present their personal competence with their own dog.

I think the way of using treats, toys etc., and trying to understand dogs from our perspective rather than theirs, as taken people further and further away from the way of dogs. Just have to look at the problems and issues people are unfortunately experiencing with dogs. Plus to a large extent the answers to those problems too. Now, I need to say that I am not intent on needling people. I know already that things have gone so far down the road, that _dog thinking_ is way out on the horizon! Just imagine what even a 'Behaviourist' might say to someone with two bitches fighting? It is unfortunate that we only have this written text to communicate. We cannot see and hear each other. Simple authoritive exercises, that enable an Owner, rather than disarm them, and do not put them in danger if a situation was even aggressive, have been completely lost ...... all that is heard is NILIF or Time-Outs! I do realise that opposing views are apt towards causing friction, but that is not my intention to create animosity. It almost cannot be helped, but it is not my intention.

Belda


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I don't think this has to do with animosity. It has to do with lack of research/support for an opinion. If you present something as a fact, people naturally want to know how you know it is a fact.

I still don't understand your connection to wolf behavior and domesticated dog behavior. 

How do you suggest we train dogs? You clearly don't 100% agree with NILIF, so I would be open to hearing what you do to train your dogs.

And I am still interested in reading any articles you can provide on the dog/wolf connection.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Belda said:


> 9/10ths of the Pack/Group leave because they are intent on breeding! 1% remain because they have been _'persuaded'_ not to breed by a non-authoritative Breeding Pair!!!! Not much of a Pack/Group remaining!
> 
> The dog/wolf, Alpha/Alpha not, Pack/non Pack, etc., the argument often appears to crop up on Forums, particularly where problems and issues are concerned, and advice given that is _preferable_ at the time. Now you cannot have your bread buttered on both sides!


dont quite see what you're trying to say. its not a matter of preference. it's a matter of what ideas people have been exposed to. the leadership paradigm exists in BOTH sides of the training fence..treat trainers and pack people and frankly..i think it's all a waste of time that does nothing but confuse people and be counterproductive and cause fights. 

the science says pack theory is just so much baggage. i go a step farther. whether or not your dog sees you as a leader is completely, utterly and stupidly irrelevant. the important points are "Do you trust your dog?" and "Does your dog trust you?" coupled with "How well do the two of you communicate?" 



> For some reason the idea of Alpha/Senior Member seems to be based on being aggressive, walking through doors first, eating before a dog and not letting him/her on furniture. Strange how these ideas do not actually come from Authority and Leadership Trainers, but from Reward Treat Trainers!


actually you get it pretty evenly from both.



> Last year I was in contact with an Organisation that was engaged on guiding Obedience Instructors to obtain a higher level through Theory and Practical Study. My initial communication was something related only to the dogs. However, I then made the suggestion to the Organisers, that why not include the Instructors dogs during the Theory work, as they worked at their desks, which could then be part of their Practical, displaying their good control with their dogs in this setting. The communication was suddenly finished. But why? If these _experienced_ Instructors were wanting to extend their abilities, then this was an excellent opportunity to present their personal competence with their own dog.


your point?


> I think the way of using treats, toys etc., and trying to understand dogs from our perspective rather than theirs, as taken people further and further away from the way of dogs.


umm..dunno what planet you've been living on but no one...NO ONE..i have ever met has tried to understand dogs from a human perspective...some have let their biases filter in and that's where you tend to get a complete dismissal of what's supportable in favor of what some dude or chick on tv said.



> Just have to look at the problems and issues people are unfortunately experiencing with dogs. Plus to a large extent the answers to those problems too. Now, I need to say that I am not intent on needling people. I know already that things have gone so far down the road, that _dog thinking_ is way out on the horizon! Just imagine what even a 'Behaviourist' might say to someone with two bitches fighting?


the behaviorist i know doesnt say ANYTHING about two bitches fighting. she breaks up the fight. your examples are kind of unintelligable. please clarify.


> It is unfortunate that we only have this written text to communicate. We cannot see and hear each other. Simple authoritive exercises, that enable an Owner, rather than disarm them, and do not put them in danger if a situation was even aggressive, have been completely lost


BS. i work with aggressive dogs. i dismiss the idea of "pack leader" as useless garbage. and i do just fine. 



> ...... all that is heard is NILIF or Time-Outs!


wrong. we use a bite suit and reinforce disengaging in order to shape behavior away from aggression. take the dog back to step one and then help him learn how to channel the stress responses into productive and acceptable behavior. that's a whole lot more than "NILIF and Time Outs"



> I do realise that opposing views are apt towards causing friction, but that is not my intention to create animosity. It almost cannot be helped, but it is not my intention.
> 
> Belda


no animosity here. i just tend to be the rather blunt person that i am.



and ps..the purple REALLY is hard to read.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Belda said:


> 9/10ths of the Pack/Group leave because they are intent on breeding! 1% remain because they have been _'persuaded'_ not to breed by a non-authoritative Breeding Pair!!!! Not much of a Pack/Group remaining!


Well you don't want the whole pack remaining or you're going to run out of food and space pretty quickly. Not to mention that dispersal sends that DNA of yours (if you're a breeding wolf) out into the wide, wide world. It's almost as if the behavior has evolved to both favor sustainable pack sizes AND serve those selfish genes.


----------



## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

Belda, please stop using colored fonts. It's very hard on the eyes.


----------



## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

Belda said:


> The wolf DNA is in every dog. You take away a dog's right to live as a Pack animal, that recognises and lives with respect of the hierarchy, that is natural to their thinking and acting, then you strip a dog bare!
> 
> Requiring an Owner to at least have a senior position (not necessarily _Alpha_) - respects the dog in giving him/her a trusting leadership figure.
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter. Domestic dogs also have a bunch of different genes from 15k + years of domestication that means in some very key ways (mostly having to do with their relationship with people) they are VERY different from wolves in much of their behavior, their signals, and their way of responding to people. By virtue of being the "parents", the breeding pair of wolves have built-in superiority and respect, as do owners with their dogs. So even if we were to use wolf behavior as the model for dog behavior, our understanding of that behavior has changed. 

But dogs are not wolves and people are not dogs and dogs know we are not dogs. They don't want us to be dogs and they've been genetically engineered, if you will, to have a special relationship with us.

I'd suggest reading John Bradshaw's new book In Defense of Dogs to get a better understanding of this.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Dog vs wolf, an what Belda isn't realising is that dogs are programed to be never reach a true canine maturity where they make decisions and hunt for themselves. This is what domestication has introduced to the dog, their total dependence on humans will always be there be it direct (ownership)or indirect (feral packs). The fact is that every WILD species has a different pack structure be it wolves, coyotes, wild dogs, or fox


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Is this a "whose gotta bigger dong" contest?


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Is this a "whose gotta bigger dong" contest?


more like "who has a bigger ulcer"


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Biggest dong _pack_.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

My dong is more alpha than YOUR dong.

Also, who knew Darkmoon would start such a big dogforum meme.


----------



## Polywoggy (Mar 7, 2011)

I'd like to discuss who has better teeth- Cesar Millan or Robert Conrad. My vote is for Mr. Conrad. 

Anyways, this is still the best Dog TV:
http://youtu.be/LcqFztb2QnA


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Polywoggy said:


> Anyways, this is still the best Dog TV:
> http://youtu.be/lgGKSjiw0HQ


 
Doesn't look anything like the dog they had on when Corner Gas spoofed it with "The Littlest Yarbo"


----------



## Polywoggy (Mar 7, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Doesn't look anything like the dog they had on when Corner Gas spoofed it with "The Littlest Yarbo"


I mistakenly posted the wrong link. I edited it. I missed "The Littlest Yarbo" Wonder if I can find that somewhere?


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

There's an online service that shows episodes, and DH has the who series on DVD.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yeah lets all get it out of our system (unbeknownst to OH lol) I mostly watch CM BC I think he's pretty cute... I'll admit it *put hands up to Shield face from the onslaught of rotten fruit* i mostly watch him BC i think he's cute... I would like to know his secret to white teeth tho.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

IWlover said:


> But dogs are not wolves and people are not dogs and *dogs know we are not dogs. They don't want us to be dogs* and they've been genetically engineered, if you will, to have a special relationship with us.


Ooh, Like.

I have been trying to find a way to word this for a few posts, and haven't said it because I didn't know how I wanted to word it.

Again, LIKE!


----------



## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Raising your dog based on a wolf model is just about the same as raising your child based on a chimp model. Some similar DNA but sorry....no cigar.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Belda's posts are increasingly confusing..
and quite passively aggressive about science based trainers (toys, treats, clickers). 
You go ahead and keep your mind closed about modern techniques. It's no skin off my nose. In fact it's your loss.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Belda said:


> 9/10ths of the Pack/Group leave because they are intent on breeding! 1% remain because they have been _'persuaded'_ not to breed by a non-authoritative Breeding Pair!!!! Not much of a Pack/Group remaining!


This is actually stunningly similar to how human families work. The normal wolf pack is Breeding Pair > Last Year's Pups > This Year's Pups > Stragglers/Hangers on, if any. Last year's pups leave because they hit sexual maturity. They *want* to mate, and they have the instinct to not mate with their parents (populations with limited territory, ie an island, that do tend to inbreed heavily, have been found to have severe bone deformities). The leaving of the parents upon sexual maturity is hardly limited to dogs, wolves, or humans. I would hazard a guess that it is the normal state of affairs across the animal kingdom.




> For some reason the idea of Alpha/Senior Member seems to be based on being aggressive, walking through doors first, eating before a dog and not letting him/her on furniture. Strange how these ideas do not actually come from Authority and Leadership Trainers, but from Reward Treat Trainers!


Um, what? Really, what? Trainers who are using food poorly, as a bribe, or inconsistently are not the people to judge R+ "treat" trainers on. Just as I assume you do not want us to base our opinion of traditional trainers on the folks who regularly hang dogs by choke chains. Every R+ trainer I have ever talked to has but no stock in that sort of hookum. Yes, I teach my dogs to not dash out the door, but that's because I don't want them to get hit buy cars, not because I feel the need to assert my dominance. Most R+ trainers would agree, I think, that WHAT the rules are, are not important as long as they EXIST. I could require that my dogs wait at open doors, exit before me, and turn back to look at me (and in fact, I do) and this accomplishes the same goal as exiting first. 



> Last year I was in contact with an Organisation that was engaged on guiding Obedience Instructors to obtain a higher level through Theory and Practical Study. My initial communication was something related only to the dogs. However, I then made the suggestion to the Organisers, that why not include the Instructors dogs during the Theory work, as they worked at their desks, which could then be part of their Practical, displaying their good control with their dogs in this setting. The communication was suddenly finished. But why? If these _experienced_ Instructors were wanting to extend their abilities, then this was an excellent opportunity to present their personal competence with their own dog.


What? I don't understand what you're saying here. You don't write in a very coherent manner.



> I think the way of using treats, toys etc., *and trying to understand dogs from our perspective rather than theirs,* as taken people further and further away from the way of dogs.




On the contrary. At it's coldest, clicker training with food treats the dog exactly like a dog, who's greatest agenda is surviving. You can get surprisingly far with cold, strictly scientific clicker training alone. It may take a lot of the fun out of having a dog, because one of the reasons it works so well for marine animals is that it does not depend on a relationship with the trainer, and one of the main reasons people have dogs in the first place is for the relationship with them. But it will get the dog trained.

You can clicker train and build a relationship as well, but saying R+ doesn't treat dogs like dogs is ridiculous. Dogs want things. They are opportunistic scavengers (another way they differ from wolves, who are apex predators; although not above scavenging it is not their main mode of feeding). R+ creates a language where humans and dogs can trade things for things they want.

The bold is just as bad when you try to understand dogs from a perspective that does not apply to them. You may want to read DOGS: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution by the Coppingers.



> Just have to look at the problems and issues people are unfortunately experiencing with dogs. Plus to a large extent the answers to those problems too. Now, I need to say that I am not intent on needling people. I know already that things have gone so far down the road, that _dog thinking_ is way out on the horizon! Just imagine what even a 'Behaviourist' might say to someone with two bitches fighting? It is unfortunate that we only have this written text to communicate. We cannot see and hear each other. Simple authoritive exercises, that enable an Owner, rather than disarm them, and do not put them in danger if a situation was even aggressive, have been completely lost ...... all that is heard is NILIF or Time-Outs! I do realise that opposing views are apt towards causing friction, but that is not my intention to create animosity. It almost cannot be helped, but it is not my intention.


Again, I see your words but they don't make sense. Bitch fighting is a pretty serious deal. It's not something that is going to be solved by strangers on the internet. I think in most threads you will find practical, stop-gap advice designed to keep the problem from getting worse, and then suggestions to see a professional trainer or behaviorist. But for things like housebreaking, pulling on leash, not coming when called, these are relatively benign problems that are straightforward (simple, but not easy!) to fix. These aren't _dominance_ issues, because wolves don't walk tethered together, don't pee in just one corner of the territory so they don't kill the petunias, or come when howled for. If "good dog" behavior was natural dog behavior, then maybe establishing a human as the "alpha" would have an effect. But "good dog" behavior is *contrary* to natural dog behavior. What we humans expect from "good" dogs is completely foreign and nonsensical to them.

Meeting aggression with aggression is a good way to arm yourself. With dog teeth. In your arm.


----------

