# Fenzi Academy Classes



## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Anybody doing any classes currently (or done any in the past)? It's my newest dog training addiction! Just signed up for a new class and contemplating another 1 (or 2, eeck)! Currently signed up for Relationship Building Through Play at bronze.

http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I'd love to take some of the classes, but I'm not sure I have the motivation to do them at the bronze level or the money for the silver or gold levels. If I didn't have a great local training center, I'd definitely consider it.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

That's really neat! I might give it a try sometime


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> I'd love to take some of the classes, but I'm not sure I have the motivation to do them at the bronze level or the money for the silver or gold levels. If I didn't have a great local training center, I'd definitely consider it.


This is my hesitation. I'm afraid that at bronze I just wouldn't do it, and I don't have video equipment that's good enough for silver or gold, even if I had the money otherwise. But I want to!

No wait. April. Dealing wth fearful and reactive competition dogs. That sucker is MINE.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

I wondered the same thing when I started. I have done 3 bronze classes to date and just signed up for my fourth, and will most likely add another one this term if I can ever decide which one. One of the classes I haven't really done a whole lot with yet, but the best part is that you have a library, so the lecture material for the class stays in your library which you have access to indefinitely if you take a least 1 class a year at the academy. I knew that I wouldn't have a ton of time to work through one of the classes that I signed up for, but really wanted the material, so now I have it and can work through it whenever I want. I did read through a few threads on the forums for that class just so I could get an idea of what was going on and what the instructors feedback was like. It can be hard to follow all the threads so I usually try to pick a couple dogs that are similar to mine and follow those ones to get the best feedback. I hope to do a gold at some point this year, but it has to be the right class at the right time.

So far I have done Performance Fundamentals, Get Novice/Open Ready and Impulse Control for the Agility Dog. Currently enrolled in Relationship Building Through Play. I'm torn between Shaping, Get Focused, Fronts & Finishes and Toys for my second bronze. Or just do one and save for an upcoming Gold? Or start playing the lottery and cross my fingers...  

CptJack - I have heard really great things about the Bogeyman class.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Okay that actually encourages me, a lot. You sign up and get the material and keep access to it indefinitely, then I know I'll have a chance to work on it. That's the kind of thing I CAN do, because I often hit about 11 p.m and am trolling around the net for good training material to play with, anyway.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have done some of her classes in the past but not any recently or with Hank. Hmmm


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Okay that actually encourages me, a lot. You sign up and get the material and keep access to it indefinitely, then I know I'll have a chance to work on it. That's the kind of thing I CAN do, because I often hit about 11 p.m and am trolling around the net for good training material to play with, anyway.


Yes exactly! Once the class is "over" the lectures go into your library and as long as you are a current student, taking one class a year, your library stays open at no additional cost. After you have been "inactive" for a year then I think you have the option of buying a library pass for like $35 a year or something like that. But yeah, that definitely helped encouraged me to go for it. 

For me locally, I have access to great agility instruction that meets my current needs. But for other things like obedience and some of the more advanced, in depth, precise aspects of training for sports, there is not a whole lot available to me here. Either I'm not a fan of the methods used or it conflicts with my teaching schedule. So the academy has been a great place for me to get all that.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

kadylady said:


> For me locally, I have access to great agility instruction that meets my current needs. But for other things like obedience and some of the more advanced, in depth, precise aspects of training for sports, there is not a whole lot available to me here. Either I'm not a fan of the methods used or it conflicts with my teaching schedule. So the academy has been a great place for me to get all that.


Yep, this exactly. My agility instructor is worth her weight in gold, but agility, flyball and 'manners' classes are all I have easy access to, unless I want to go to a place that I don't like the methods of at all. I could drive 2 hours each way to the good facility and I'd really like to but... It's 2 hours away each day on a weeknight. That's KILLER. Maybe over summer, but... Ugh. 

Anyway, yeah. This seems like a pretty good stop-gap. And the cost at bronze isn't bad at all.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've only done bronze and it has been plenty for me. You get the instruction but don't post videos. I doubt I'd have time for videos anyways. 

The ones I've done have mostly been nosework but well worth my while. They've brought up a lot I hadn't thought about.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

kadylady said:


> Yes exactly! Once the class is "over" the lectures go into your library and as long as you are a current student, taking one class a year, your library stays open at no additional cost. After you have been "inactive" for a year then I think you have the option of buying a library pass for like $35 a year or something like that. But yeah, that definitely helped encouraged me to go for it.


That make it much more tempting. Need to work out the budget...


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

I took the Relationship Building course last year at bronze and I definitely did not keep up with it in "real time." It is awesome how they let you hold on to the lectures and such for a bit after the course. 

CptJack - I'm planning on taking the Bogeyman course next time it's offered at gold with Kimma. It will be cool to have someone we "know" taking it, too


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm debating classes, Vitae can't join in local classes. She's been deemed too reactive. (She's vocal, doesn't care about food and get frustrated easily, she also wants to herd everybody )

To be honest I didn't finish local classes with Manna at that age either. They were more geared towards quiet older and smaller dogs. 
Manna at 13 weeks was bigger than the other dogs could ever get and Vitae isn't that much smaller than Manna was.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm signed up for Training Excellence - The Handler at gold. Kind of terrified. The last gold class I did was a year ago. I just hate video taping myself and watching it, but I know it will be super helpful. There are a few things we're kind of stuck with, so I think this will help push us over the hump. Watson can get easily frustrated with new behaviors, so I have a hard time knowing when and how much to raise criteria without frustrating him. Then I end up going so slowly or not raising criteria at all and we get stuck and don't progress. So I think this class will be perfect. I think TrainingJunkie is also doing it at gold which will be fun.

I'm considering relationship building at bronze, I'm just not sure if I'll have enough time to really give it much attention if I'm also in a gold class. 

A real life friend of mind is doing Get Focused at gold, and I'm sad I already took it because I'd love to watch her and her dog.

Personally, I haven't gotten much out of some of the bronze classes. When it's really about your interaction with your dog, like focus or handler skills, it's so hard to watch someone else with totally different bad habits and a dog with a totally different personality. I did the focus class and it wasn't very useful at all beyond getting some info, which was pretty basic as it was. None of the gold people in the class had a dog like Watson or problems like ours, so it was hard to relate or get much out of their videos other than being generally interesting.

I took Precision Heeling at gold and there were so many places where we got stuck, and then Denise's instruction got us unstuck. There's no way we would be where we are now without taking it at gold, but a more experienced trainer could have easily taken it at bronze and been fine, since it was just skill based.

For classes that are more skill based, like nosework or agility, I think bronze is fine.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ETA: Nevermind, kadylady already explained


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Also just jumped into Fantastic Fronts and Finishes with Hannah Branigan at Bronze. Just skimmed the lectures and already so much info! Exciting! Fronts/Finishes are a huge weakness for Luke and I.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

After talking with someone who has friends that have taken the Bogeyman course, I've decided not to do it. Instead, I'm taking the Advanced Confidence Building for the Ring at bronze. Since it's the second on in the sequence I had to buy the lectures for the first one as well. So far it's been super interesting!


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I actually decided to sign up for their Shaping class after reading through this thread! I only signed up at Bronze, but it's really useful to be able to watch the other student videos and see the instructor comments on them. I like how the whole thing is set up, and I'll probably take more of them.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

For those who've taken Fenzi and in-person classes _and_ are novice trainers, how would you compare the online vs site-based experience? The training center we belong to has great classes, but for specialized topics (e.g., agility, nose work, rally) they don't seem to offer entry level classes very often. I'm starting to consider dropping our membership (or the "training" part of membership) and branching out to other training opportunities.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Following this. I'm curious what people have to say.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

cookieface said:


> For those who've taken Fenzi and in-person classes _and_ are novice trainers, how would you compare the online vs site-based experience? The training center we belong to has great classes, but for specialized topics (e.g., agility, nose work, rally) they don't seem to offer entry level classes very often. I'm starting to consider dropping our membership (or the "training" part of membership) and branching out to other training opportunities.


Not sure what your definition of "novice trainer" is but I will try to answer, I would certainly consider myself a novice in the area of competition obedience.  *Disclaimer: I have only done classes at bronze so far, so auditing level only*

I will be the first to say that I love my private/semi private lessons and the one on one experience is amazing. That is obviously my first choice. But when my choice becomes in person instruction with trainers who I'm not that thrilled about vs online classes with trainers who I am thrilled with.... I'm definitely going for the trainers that excite me. I am willing to give up that face to face interaction for better quality instruction.

As far as the experience itself, I would say that a huge factor is how much effort you put into it. Just like with in person stuff, you don't get as far when you only practice once a week, same with the online classes. I think you have to have a little bit more self motivation to practice the stuff in an online class, especially at an auditing level like bronze. When I take bronze classes there is no one checking to make sure I'm doing my homework except me. I get the most out of the classes that I put the most into. Reading and following the forums, doing the homework on your own, recording your own videos even if you aren't in a gold spot. When I do all that, I definitely feel like I'm getting a lot of the class. As far as having questions answered, troubleshooting and things like that, I have found in the classes I have taken that there is enough of a diverse group of gold students that I can usually find a couple that are in similar places with their training as me, have similar type dogs, or similar problems and the instructor addresses those in their threads. On the flip side of that, it is interesting to me to see different types of dogs that I don't have experience with and see what their challenges are and how they address them.

Also I like that I physically have the material in front of me in written and video form. Sometimes I get so much so fast during in person lessons and later on I find myself thinking, ok, now how did she do that or what did she say to do when this happens, ect. I have to wait til my next lesson and try to work through it myself until then. With the online stuff I can go straight back to the lecture material and the videos in the lectures and go oh yeah, this is how she said to troubleshoot this problem...or oh my hand is in the wrong position here that's why it is not working. You have 24/7 access vs one hour a week access. Also, the fact that I have that material long term too.

Last thing (that I can think of at the moment) is I have found the Fenzi crowd to be a very supportive group. There are 2 Facebook pages for students only (they actually verify that you have been a student at the academy in order for you to join). Then there are also "lurker groups" created by students for each of the different classes and that's where everyone "hangs out" and where bronze and silver students can post questions and videos and such. There are no instructors in the groups but still nice to bounce things off people in the same class. Some groups are more active than others, last term the groups I was in were not very active at all. This term the groups I'm in are much more active and I have been more active in following and posting as well.

Like I said, I wouldn't give up my in persons with my amazing agility instructor. But I think the online stuff is a great alternative when you are looking for better quality or specific classes that you can't find locally.

ETA: I do have a couple classes in mind that I plan to save up and try for gold at in the next couple months.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I have found the Fenzi gold level classes to be pretty comparable to a private lesson, depending on how much effort you put into it and what the specific class is. I learned far more about creating a good heel from a few weeks in a Fenzi class than I did in months of regular obedience classes. Private lessons with a high level obedience person would have been even better, but I have not been able to find someone with the experience and training philosophy I prefer. If you have access to someone like Denise Fenzi in real life than go for privates, but if not a gold level class is the next best thing. 

And I think a gold level class is better than standard group classes depending on what you are trying to learn. 

I haven't not gotten nearly as much from bronze level classes. Part of it is my lack of motivation if I don't have to submit video homework, but part is that if I get stuck with something there is no one to talk me through so I give up. For something fairly basic that you won't have problems training yourself that's no big deal, but for something you're a novice at and haven't been able to figure out on your own so far, bronze may not be enough.

ETA: There are lurker FB groups for all of the Fenzi classes, so you're not totally on your own at Bronze. People post their homework and others give feedback, so it can be almost as good as gold level. That wasn't as much of a thing with some of the classes I took last year, but now I think the FB groups are very active.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the comments. I do wonder if taking classes at a bronze level will be sufficiently motivating. In-person classes have the advantage of public shame for not practicing.  However, taking as many as I want at gold or silver levels would be verging on cost prohibitive. I should maybe look into private lessons, too. There are a number of good trainers near us, so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Ugh, I _hate_ making decisions. I do think I'll wait until Tyson is through the foundation level classes to make any changes. By that time, the training center may have added more entry level classes for sports. There will probably be enough for Katie to do that she'll stay happy.

Thanks again!


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

How did everyone like their classes last term? Anybody taking anything this next term?

I really liked the Fronts/Finishes class with Hannah. I feel like I have such a better understanding of those maneuvers and have been totally retraining it with Luke and Zoey. I'd never really used any of the tools before like the pivot bowls and sit platforms and chutes and really see how helpful they are now. Luke totally didn't get front without serious help and was always getting crooked sits so the platforms have helped his understanding so much. 

The Play class was pretty good. I slacked on following that one a little bit and have to go back through some of the last lectures still. I did enjoy the personal play stuff though and it has helped me to incorporate more play into my training overall. 

I'm undecided on what to do this term. Leaning towards Heeling Games and buying the Precision Heeling lectures.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm taking the foundations jumping course, I've heard some good things about the course and instructor.

Because certain dogs are just as happy to plow through a jump as to jump a jump. :/


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I enjoyed Training Excellence. It was a little more self-directed than I think was good for me though. I had to come up with what we were working on each week, and that was kind of hard for me. I think I need more direction, though the instructor was really good. Too bad she's leaving FDSA.

I wasn't a big fan of the prey drive class. It had some fun games to play with your dog, things that would be good with a new dog or puppy, but I never saw how it should impact his prey drive. I see how building a relationship with a dog and playing training games will make them more focused on you, but I thought there would be more to it than that.

I wish I had taken the play class instead! I would've gotten much more out of that.

I just bought the lectures for Agility Handling Basics. I'm not sure if I'm going to sign up for Part 2. I guess I should so I have all of the lectures even if we're not ready for them. I'm able to view the forums from the previous sessions for a couple days, so I'm reading up while they're still available.

I'm also tempted to sign up for the Jumping Foundations class since Watson struggles with confidence while jumping.

Kadylady, you should definitely do PH and Heeling Games. They were two of the first classes I took and I think they are still my favorites. Denise is a great instructor and there is so much information in both of them (especially if you're like me and never trained a heel with pivots and platforms). I get complimented on Watson's pivoting ability all the time and it's completely because of PH.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I enjoyed Training Excellence. It was a little more self-directed than I think was good for me though. I had to come up with what we were working on each week, and that was kind of hard for me. I think I need more direction, though the instructor was really good. Too bad she's leaving FDSA.
> 
> *I'm so sad she left! I was really hoping to take Novice/Open Ready at gold with her in August. I did it at bronze as my first class and my mind was blown. Training Excellence was also on my "wish list" of classes to take. I really enjoyed the one class I had with her. At least I have the lectures for it still.*
> 
> ...


Responses in bold.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think the heeling classes will help a ton with Luke based on your description. For Watson, a big part of the problem is that I wasn't specific enough about what I wanted, so he just kind of moved along roughly in heel position (because I didn't really know how to get what I wanted). Once I showed him very specifically, and incorporated the pivots, his heeling became so pretty. We still struggle with his head going down when he's distracted or bored, but at least now he has a beautiful heel in there somewhere and he knows what he needs to do to earn a reward. All of the pivot work made him really snappy with his hind end too.

The games class sounds like it would be perfect for Luke if he enjoyed the play class. When I took the games class we had barely grasped PH so I think we were too green to get everything out of it. I should really go back and re-read the lectures and incorporate some of the stuff now that his heeling is more solid.

TE was my first class with Margaret and I was looking forward to taking more with her! It was a great class despite my slacker-ness and she was really good.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AG110 was really really good. It is very basic agility stuff but I learned lots. And really the basics are what people mostly mess up on. I will be continuing on to Agility foundations 2. I would also highly recommend the instructor, she was fantastic!

I am also doing NW101 this time. It's kind of backwards since I've done the advanced class already but I'm interested in seeing how they intro dogs and since I just put Hank on odor I thought it would be a good fit.

I want to take like.... every other class ever offered but 2 is more than enough for us!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I've heard on FB that Deb Jones is working on a Treat&Train based class. I will definitely be signing up for that! 

I'm also excited that the June 1st term has a Performance Fundamentals class, and we will hopefully be getting a puppy within a week of the class starting. Perfect timing. I worked on a lot of that stuff with Watson but I was kind of making it up as we went. It will be fun to get a new perspective and maybe learn how to do the foundation stuff better.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Er, now I kind of want to take heeling games.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Definitely going to do PH and Heeling games for sure now! Thanks for sharing your experience with it! Sounds like exactly what we need. And not gonna lie, it's not just him, I'm still figuring out this heeling thing as well! Zoey seems to be the only one of all of us that gets it, not sure how! lol 



elrohwen said:


> I've heard on FB that Deb Jones is working on a Treat&Train based class. I will definitely be signing up for that!


^^August!! That one is on my "wish list" too. It's a long list...  



sassafras said:


> Er, now I kind of want to take heeling games.


Every time I look at the schedule I find something else I want to take!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Not to add to peoples' choice issues, but Bridging the Gap is one of the most excellent classes at the academy...


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> Not to add to peoples' choice issues, but Bridging the Gap is one of the most excellent classes at the academy...


Also on my wish list! But I feel like I need more development of certain skills still in order to get the most out of it, so waiting and hoping it comes around again.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> Also on my wish list! But I feel like I need more development of certain skills still in order to get the most out of it, so waiting and hoping it comes around again.


This exactly. I really want to take it, but I think we need more work to solidify skills we have and fix some foundational stuff (off leash!) before we will get the most out of it.


I noticed that Denise is teaching her new Engagement class in August as well. I know what two classes I'm taking that term!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

It will come around again. I think it is especially near and dear to Denise's heart. It is a very, very good class for people making the transition from training to trialing. 

Working spots sold out in under 2 minutes. My friend didn't get in even though she was being all obsessive about it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

So I'm thinking of doing this but I have no clue where to start. 

I would love to do the classes local and I do know that local teachers are awesome but they have classrooms that are size prohibitive for my dogs. I'm not joking, tiny rooms and they book up solid because most people around here have small dogs. Manna and Vitae just can't move in those rooms effectively or comfortably with the other dogs there. 

So here's where I get stuck.

Manna's a pro in a class environment and in our living room but in "life" situations people and everything else make her way too distracted for my tastes. 

The focus class that I saw would be awesome but requires a crate...Manna has a legitimate phobia and even vet prescribed meds don't take the edge off being in a crate (she's claustrophobic ) I can do things in a hall way with a babygate without freaking her out. How are the instructors with modifications like that? 

Also Manna needs zero confidence building (probably wouldn't hurt to take her confidence down a few pegs) she's just easily distractable(sp) and excitable. Any suggestions?

As for Vitae, puppy classes and confidence classes all the way. That pup is the exact opposite of Manna and we've been doing nothing but counter conditioning since we got her. (She will finally get in my car now!)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

There is a performance fundamentals class starting June 1st that might be good for the pup, depending on how much you've done with her already. I would consider that basically a puppy class, but for people who already know how to teach sit and down and want to work on other things. I plan to take it with my new pup.

For lack of confidence, the Dealing with the Bogeyman class offered this term might help. I think Finkie_Mom has done it so she could give you more info on whether it's appropriate for puppies or if it's more geared towards competing, 

I took the original focus class, not the focus games, but a crate wasn't necessary at all. From looking over the games in the syllabus it doesn't seem like a crate is really important to playing the games. I would sign up anyway if you're interested. You might need to purchase the lectures from the original focus class in order to understand everything they are talking about. Or you can just take the original class in June.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Pretty much agreeing with elrohwen's suggestions above. I did the Performance Fundamentals class in December and I had just gotten Skye so it was perfect timing. I enjoyed the class. Most of the actual skills were things that I already knew how to teach, but the hows and why were different. It also really helped me to structure my training time with my puppy. I would definitely recommend the class. It also touched on the beginnings of focus work. 

You may also look into the Yes Please! Cooperative Canine Care class that is offered this term. The focus is on preparing dogs for handling by vets and/or groomers but looking at the syllabus there seems to be a good amount of impulse control stuff and counter conditioning, so probably touches on some skills that I would think would be transferable to other real life stuff, especially for a fearful dog? It's a new class so haven't heard anything about it yet.

Denise's Play class is a nice foundation class. I just finished that one and learned a lot about playing with my dogs. That comes around again in October. There is also a Life Skills class that Hannah is teaching in October. I have my eye on that one, no syllabus yet though. From what I've heard on the FB group it sounds like it will consist of LLW, jumping up on people, general public manners geared towards performance dogs.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> Pretty much agreeing with elrohwen's suggestions above. I did the Performance Fundamentals class in December and I had just gotten Skye so it was perfect timing. I enjoyed the class. Most of the actual skills were things that I already knew how to teach, but the hows and why were different. It also really helped me to structure my training time with my puppy. I would definitely recommend the class. It also touched on the beginnings of focus work.


Oo, I'm glad you liked it! I also already know how to teach the stuff mentioned, but I thought it would be a great way to start a puppy so I'm glad you liked it for Skye. Also when I taught Watson a lot of that stuff I didn't really understand the performance implications, so I might do it differently now. Like I taught him to put his paws on something, because I was told perch work would lead to pivots and help our heeling, but it wasn't until PH that I understood how and why and the progression to take. I know more now, but I'm sure there are other foundation things I'm not clear on (like starting retrieves - I still don't have a retrieve on Watson).


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Oo, I'm glad you liked it! I also already know how to teach the stuff mentioned, but I thought it would be a great way to start a puppy so I'm glad you liked it for Skye. Also when I taught Watson a lot of that stuff I didn't really understand the performance implications, so I might do it differently now. Like I taught him to put his paws on something, because I was told perch work would lead to pivots and help our heeling, but it wasn't until PH that I understood how and why and the progression to take. I know more now, but I'm sure there are other foundation things I'm not clear on (like starting retrieves - I still don't have a retrieve on Watson).


Yes, I think you will really like it for starting with your new puppy! It touches on the beginning stages of most performance behaviors, things I wouldn't have thought to start with Skye so young. It's got your basics, sit/down/stand/recalls/impulse control exercises, but it's also got beginning heel work, introducing the pivots and platforms, shaped retrieves, beginning scent work, send outs, just lots of cool stuff to start so young. I have a habit of getting so stuck on the basics (sit/down/come/stay) and the class really helped me expand and focus. Another huge difference was just in how I taught everything to Skye, the methods encouraged her to think and work through and solve the problems vs me just giving her all the answers (like I did with Luke & Zoey). She is such a thinker and loves to solve "problems" now and picks new things up so fast.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

I never ended up taking the Bogeyman class - I heard from numerous people that they were disappointed in the class. So I took the Ring Confidence course instead and it was great! TONS of good info there and I'm already noticing a difference in my dogs because of the exercises we learned from the class. It is pretty much geared towards competition dogs, though.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Finkie_Mom said:


> I never ended up taking the Bogeyman class - I heard from numerous people that they were disappointed in the class. So I took the Ring Confidence course instead and it was great! TONS of good info there and I'm already noticing a difference in my dogs because of the exercises we learned from the class. It is pretty much geared towards competition dogs, though.



Oh that's right. I forgot the details. Why were people disappointed with the Bogeyman class, out of curiosity?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I would also be interested in the feedback on Bogeyman.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Fenzi registration time again! What is everyone taking?

I'm definitely doing Engagement at bronze. I'm undecided about my other class.

Thinking about Bogeyman or Confidence Building. He isn't afraid necessarily, but he is easily aroused/reactive, and can be stressy. I think we could learn some things. Still waiting on feedback from FinkieMom about why the Bogeyman class wasn't very good. *taps feet*


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am taking Engagement, Surviving to Thriving, Nancy G. Little's Obedience Problem-Solving class, and Nosework Proofing and Generalization.

I think all at Bronze.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

You'll have to let me know what you think of Surviving to Thriving. Like all of her classes, the description sounds good but I'm still wary of the content.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

If I was going to drop a class, that would be the one. But I am very curious.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm debating on Training with Remote Reinforcement and/or Confidence Building @ Bronze.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

kadylady said:


> I'm debating on Training with Remote Reinforcement and/or Confidence Building @ Bronze.


My vote would be Confidence Building.

Or both!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> I'm debating on Training with Remote Reinforcement and/or Confidence Building @ Bronze.


Yeah, I'm interested in both as well. I want to limit it to two classes though and I don't think Remote Reinforcement is our biggest need right now. I just already have the T&T and it would be neat to take the class. Hopefully it will do well and come back around on the schedule. It would be a good one for winter.

I'm considering Confidence Building as well. My worry is that it will be too focused on competition stuff (working outside the ring, ring entrances, presure judges, etc) and I need something way more general right now. Watson isn't even close to stepping into another ring, and I don't have a good ring setup to practice with. I'm sure we could get something out of it, but I don't know if it will be the best use of my money this time around. I think Bogeyman would be a better fit but I'm still worried that others have given it bad reviews.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> My vote would be Confidence Building.
> 
> Or both!


haha my impulses say both but my head reminds me of how poorly I have been doing lately with following through on the classes....I think Confidence Building is my #1 pick, the Remote Reinforcement class I think would be interesting to learn how to utilize my MM more/better, but not sure how much I would actually end up using that vs I know I would use the Confidence Building stuff. Have you taken CB? I've heard great things about it...


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> but I don't know if it will be the best use of my money this time around,


Exactly my thoughts on the Remote class...and like all of the other classes on the schedule! lol I'm like "oh that sounds neat, and that one and that one and that one...." but my wallet is like no, no, no...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> Exactly my thoughts on the Remote class...and like all of the other classes on the schedule! lol I'm like "oh that sounds neat, and that one and that one and that one...." but my wallet is like no, no, no...


I used to be pretty free with FDSA classes - add another one! But now with two dogs taking regular classes, plus trying to solve Watson's issues with various private lessons and stuff, I should cut back FDSA to only classes that will really help us. I'll have to see how private agility goes this week - if it goes well and I continue, then I don't need to worry about taking FDSA classes with Watson. His personal budget will be used up in group and private classes

I really feel like I should take something that would benefit Hazel, but I can't find anything I like. Ob Skill Building sounds too much like the Performance Fundamentals class we just did (and we're still working on perfecting that material). Nosework will happen eventually but I'm saving that for a winter activity. 

Engagement of course is good for both of them, so maybe that's my answer. Focus on that class and really work the material with both dogs.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Is it just me or do a number of classes seem very similar? Especially the ones on focus, engagement, and play?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> Is it just me or do a number of classes seem very similar? Especially the ones on focus, engagement, and play?


If you read the syllabus they are different and kind of build on each other. I found focus a bit too basic - very much checking to see if the dog is responsive in the new environment, and then teaching them that doing a behavior brings food. Kind of the basics and the dog knows you have food. I had already been doing that kind of thing with Watson naturally.

Engagement is all about the dog asking to work with you, even if they can't see reinforcer and don't know what you have.

Play is more about the mechanics of playing the toys, food, or personal play so that you can use that play in your engagement work.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

kadylady said:


> haha my impulses say both but my head reminds me of how poorly I have been doing lately with following through on the classes....I think Confidence Building is my #1 pick, the Remote Reinforcement class I think would be interesting to learn how to utilize my MM more/better, but not sure how much I would actually end up using that vs I know I would use the Confidence Building stuff. Have you taken CB? I've heard great things about it...


Yes! I've taken it and I think it's really interesting and helpful. A very good class!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Yes! I've taken it and I think it's really interesting and helpful. A very good class!


Any other specifics? Is it really focused on the ring/competition part of it? We're not at the point where working on ring entries or pressure from judges is going to help because we have bigger fish to fry. But Watson could use some confidence in his obedience activities away from home for sure.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Any other specifics? Is it really focused on the ring/competition part of it? We're not at the point where working on ring entries or pressure from judges is going to help because we have bigger fish to fry. But Watson could use some confidence in his obedience activities away from home for sure.


It is definitely a class that specifically gets people ready for competition. It's all about ring entries and getting a dog comfortable and happy in competition.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> elrohwen said:
> 
> 
> > Any other specifics? Is it really focused on the ring/competition part of it? We're not at the point where working on ring entries or pressure from judges is going to help because we have bigger fish to fry. But Watson could use some confidence in his obedience activities away from home for sure.
> ...


Hm, not for us then. Know anything about Bogeyman? I FB messaged FinkieMom since she had heard reviews. I don't like asking on the FB site in general because everybody says every class was awesome. Haha


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> If you read the syllabus they are different and kind of build on each other. I found focus a bit too basic - very much checking to see if the dog is responsive in the new environment, and then teaching them that doing a behavior brings food. Kind of the basics and the dog knows you have food. I had already been doing that kind of thing with Watson naturally.
> 
> Engagement is all about the dog asking to work with you, even if they can't see reinforcer and don't know what you have.
> 
> Play is more about the mechanics of playing the toys, food, or personal play so that you can use that play in your engagement work.


I want specific and detailed learning objectives for the courses, not just topics, though.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I have not taken Boogyman so I can't help you there.

I think that "Engagement" is going to be pretty specific. Denise's classes tend to be very organized with clear lectures and instructions.


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## Zip (Jun 14, 2015)

Have any of you taken "Dealing with the bogeyman" or heard any good/bad reviews?

I'd like to take it a Bronze, but I'm worried because it seems super focused on those taking it at gold, so I'm not sure if it's worth the money. I'm also looking at "Engagement". It sounds awesome as well, and I'm having trouble figuring out which one would be better for us.

EDIT: I just realized elrohwen already asked about bogeyman course.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think that "Engagement" is going to be pretty specific. Denise's classes tend to be very organized with clear lectures and instructions.


Agreed. And based off of some blog posts she's written about Engagement, she has a definite flow to the steps you take to get full engagement. It's not just a random assortment of topics, it goes somewhere very specific.

I thought Focus was a bit basic, but it definitely built on itself and had a goal. The goal is basically a dog who can stop and look at you when distracting things are going on, and can perform behaviors (starting with one and chaining to more). 

And play is the mechanics of play. So the goal is to improve your skills at playing with your dog in the three areas of play. And to build your dog's desire for different forms of play so you can use all as a reinforcer.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Zip said:


> Have any of you taken "Dealing with the bogeyman" or heard any good/bad reviews?
> 
> I'd like to take it a Bronze, but I'm worried because it seems super focused on those taking it at gold, so I'm not sure if it's worth the money. I'm also looking at "Engagement". It sounds awesome as well, and I'm having trouble figuring out which one would be better for us.
> 
> EDIT: I just realized elrohwen already asked about bogeyman course.


What issues are you having?

I have taken some courses that are tailored a lot for the Gold people. So if nobody comes in with a similar problem you might be a bit out of luck. I don't know if Bogeyman is one of those classes, but I suspect might be. Still waiting to hear back from FinkieMom on FB.

Denise's classes have always been excellent no matter who the Gold people are, which is one of the reasons I love her teaching style. I don't doubt that the Engagement class will have enough content to keep you happy at bronze. Depends on what skill you need to work on though.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm debating engagement with Manna at either silver or gold.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Flaming said:


> I'm debating engagement with Manna at either silver or gold.


Gold is going to be a lottery. It will sell out in a minute. Be early!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> Gold is going to be a lottery. It will sell out in a minute. Be early!


Plan on staying up that night jyst for the opening lol


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I hope you get in! Would love to watch you!


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## Zip (Jun 14, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> What issues are you having?


Well, the main thing I need to work on is confidence building, just trying to make my dog comfortable in different environments, forget about his fears, have fun and engage with me. He doesn't have any focus problems at all, and is only distracted with environment when he is afraid, BUT he gets scared very easily. I also want to get his food/toy drive to a higher level, to a point of being able to play even when a scary looking dog/person is very close by and have him ask me to work with him also in situations that make him a bit insecure. I basically want him to stress-up rather than stress-down. 

I think Bogeyman would be awesome for him at Gold(it sounds like the trainer really focuses on every dog individually and creates a game plan based on what she sees), but I just can't afford spending that much.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I hope you guys get a gold spot! I love watching people I know in Gold.

As far as the Bogeyman class, I talked to FinkieMom. She said people were disappointed in it because all of the exercises involved being in your house in low distraction/arousal areas, with no material or support on actually getting out into the real world. Still, I think it's going to be more tailored to a fearful dog than the engagement class. Someone posted on the Fenzi FB group yesterday with a very nervous springer and asked about Bogeyman vs Engagement, and Denise said go for Bogeyman.


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## Zip (Jun 14, 2015)

Thanks for the info, elrohwen!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Does anyone have any feedback on the Play course?

The description sounds more like it's about harnessing your dog's wild play, which is the opposite problem than we have. I would totally take a class at Gold if it focused on teaching how to play to a dog that doesn't play and a human to whom "be exciting" means "stand stock still doing nothing and talk in a high pitched voice". iFail.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

"Play" is ideal for someone who has a dog that doesn't like to play. It will be very helpful.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Does anyone have any feedback on the Play course?
> 
> The description sounds more like it's about harnessing your dog's wild play, which is the opposite problem than we have. I would totally take a class at Gold if it focused on teaching how to play to a dog that doesn't play and a human to whom "be exciting" means "stand stock still doing nothing and talk in a high pitched voice". iFail.


Which play class are you looking at?

Shade's toy class is offered this term. I took it and enjoyed it. It is really more for dogs who like toys but don't "play the game" - run off with the ball, won't drop the tug, etc. It had some stuff about building drive and getting a dog interested in playing but that wasn't the focus of the class.

I have heard nothing but awesome things about Denise's relationship building through play class which is offered in October. I think a gold spot at that would be fantastic for you. Denise is all about play being a very mechanical thing. Often people say their dog won't play but they just aren't doing it right and when Denise tries the dog will play with her. If you save up for any class at gold I think that one would be fantastic for you guys. And I plan to take it at bronze so I'd love to watch you and Porsche in a gold spot!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Ah yeah, I was looking at Shade's course.

I see this one - http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/20#registration - that you're talking about elrohwen. It seems it is only offered at Bronze level? Or is that just because its outside the registration time for it?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

The "Relationship Building Through Play" was the one I was suggesting. I would wait until it runs so you can watch the Bronze students. Denise has a fabulous eye and is really good at getting dogs to start playing with their handlers. It's a great class.

I have not taken any of Shade's classes yet.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> The "Relationship Building Through Play" was the one I was suggesting. I would wait until it runs so you can watch the Bronze students. Denise has a fabulous eye and is really good at getting dogs to start playing with their handlers. It's a great class.
> 
> I have not taken any of Shade's classes yet.


Definitely that one I'm considering doing at Gold.  I'm assuming that one fills up in minutes too?
*adds calendar reminder for two weeks before october 1st*


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> Definitely that one I'm considering doing at Gold.  I'm assuming that one fills up in minutes too?
> *adds calendar reminder for two weeks before october 1st*


It will fill, but maybe not as fast as some of the others! You have a real shot and you will love the class.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Out of curiosity, which ones are considered the most popular ones? Which ones fill up the fastest?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Generally the ones Denise teaches fill fast. Stuff like Engagement and Focus fill fast because everyone has those issues. Specific skill building classes seem to fill less fast. If you want a gold in the play class I would be prepared to register the second it opens. Play won't fill up as fast as some others but I would guess within the hour.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Generally the ones Denise teaches fill fast. Stuff like Engagement and Focus fill fast because everyone has those issues. Specific skill building classes seem to fill less fast. If you want a gold in the play class I would be prepared to register the second it opens. Play won't fill up as fast as some others but I would guess within the hour.


Looks like I'll be staying up till 3am September 17th... Which kinda sucks cause I will need to get up at 6am to make an 8 hour drive to another city for a horse seminar... Maybe I'll just set my alarm, wake up, register, then go back to sleep.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

3am! That sucks. Where did you find the time? I don't see it for October classes. Usually they are like 9am or 10am Pacific time.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> 3am! That sucks. Where did you find the time? I don't see it for October classes. Usually they are like 9am or 10am Pacific time.


Oh really? I just saw that registration opens two weeks before the start date, so I assumed it was midnight pacific time two weeks before oct 1 lol. Maybe I will get sleep after all!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Oh yeah, if you're in the U.S. they are always at reasonable times in the late morning. It is hard for people in Australia or Asia or something.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Alla said:


> Does anyone have any feedback on the Play course?


I took Denise's Play class at Bronze the last time it was offered and I really loved it. I learned more than I ever thought I could learn about playing with my dogs and how to incorporate it into our training. The best part was, I have dogs with 3 totally different personalities and feelings towards play...and I learned and improved with all 3 of them. From the one who already loved toys, to the one who I used to beg to play, to the one who obssessed over food....I learned so much about my dogs and what motivated them each individually and where to use those motivators. And Denise's Play class isn't just teaching your dog to play with toys. She addresses all 3 types of play (toy, food and personal) and how to learn, improve and utilize those areas. I really enjoyed and learned a lot from all her videos and lectures and thought the class was organized nicely. Highly highly recommend that class.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Sounds like (from the alumni FB page) that Denise's Engagement class registration broke the internet! Now I wonder if I should take it at bronze....


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> Sounds like (from the alumni FB page) that Denise's Engagement class registration broke the internet! Now I wonder if I should take it at bronze....


I checked in 15min late (because I knew I wasn't going to gold) and there were some silver spots left. I just went for bronze though. The times I've taken silver I didn't get much more out of it because I never have questions that aren't super specific to my dog and thus not something I can really ask. 

The first lecture is up and I'm really excited! I haven't taken a class with Denise in a while now and I forgot how good her lecture material is. I also realized that I have trained pretty good focus into Watson at least in classes (probably why I didn't get much out of the Focus class), but not much engagement.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I will be in there at bronze too. Debated trying for gold, but with so many interesting classes this session, binging on bronze seemed more interesting.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I will be in there at bronze too. Debated trying for gold, but with so many interesting classes this session, binging on bronze seemed more interesting.


What else are you taking?

I decided not to do anything else this term. For one, there weren't any classes where I thought "I must take this!" Two, I'm spending a lot of money on private lessons and things for Watson this month, plus classes for Hazel, so I should try to save a little money. And three, this is one class where I really want to focus and work the material. When I sign up for more I tend to read everything and pick and choose what I work on, instead of really getting the most out of all of them.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> What else are you taking?
> 
> I decided not to do anything else this term. For one, there weren't any classes where I thought "I must take this!" Two, I'm spending a lot of money on private lessons and things for Watson this month, plus classes for Hazel, so I should try to save a little money. And three, this is one class where I really want to focus and work the material. When I sign up for more I tend to read everything and pick and choose what I work on, instead of really getting the most out of all of them.


Engagement, Nosework Proofing and Generalization, Handler's Choice for Obedience Ring, and Surviving to Thriving. Big session. All classes very different.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Engagement, Nosework Proofing and Generalization, Handler's Choice for Obedience Ring, and Surviving to Thriving. Big session. All classes very different.


Glad you're taking Surviving to Thriving. I'd love to hear a review at some point.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Glad you're taking Surviving to Thriving. I'd love to hear a review at some point.


Definitely! I will give it a couple of weeks first. A trainer that I really respect had lots of great things to say about her experience in Jamie's other class, so I am wildly curious. I hate "touchy-feely" stuff, so I will be outside of my comfort zone, but I'm hoping it's interesting.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I've just found their sample course and omg I'm so excited.  Why can't that Play course be this session?? Waiting till october sucks. x_x

Would love to hear reviews of all the stuff you guys are taking.  Kadylady, thank you for the feedback on the Play course!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I've just found their sample course and omg I'm so excited.  Why can't that Play course be this session?? Waiting till october sucks. x_x
> 
> Would love to hear reviews of all the stuff you guys are taking.  Kadylady, thank you for the feedback on the Play course!


I really hope you get in a Gold in October so I can watch you guys


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I really hope you get in a Gold in October so I can watch you guys


Ahaha yeah, watch me fumbling about making a fool of myself while Porsche sits and watches. *nods*


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

No gold for me....got called into work. 
I won't be able to get to a secure computer til late tonight so I might just go btonze if possible. 

For those who wanted to watch videos...I plan on them anyways so I can watch myself and spot potential errors.


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## malpre (May 31, 2015)

Signed up for engagement and surviving to thriving at bronze. Engagement looks like it's going to have a very active lurker's group! I'm nervous and excited for surviving to thriving, because it's such a different class than I've taken before.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

malpre said:


> Signed up for engagement and surviving to thriving at bronze. Engagement looks like it's going to have a very active lurker's group! I'm nervous and excited for surviving to thriving, because it's such a different class than I've taken before.


I agree! I am really looking forward to both, but I think that the Survive to Thrive will be very fresh material. Should be a fun session!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

just got home, signed up for bronze engagement


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm really tempted by surviving to thriving at bronze...


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

I just bought Engagement at Bronze. I think I will wait on Ring Confidence until December and really focus on one class. I haven't been following through on my Bronze classes as well lately and I know there is already a lot in my library I should go back to. Plus, I just read through the first lecture for Engagement...wow! So much to work on there! Really excited for this class!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> I just bought Engagement at Bronze. I think I will wait on Ring Confidence until December and really focus on one class. I haven't been following through on my Bronze classes as well lately and I know there is already a lot in my library I should go back to. Plus, I just read through the first lecture for Engagement...wow! So much to work on there! Really excited for this class!


Same! I'm excited to really focus on this one with both dogs. I hope working on this now with Hazel will prevent a lot of the problems I've had with Watson as a competition dog.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

kadylady said:


> I just bought Engagement at Bronze. I think I will wait on Ring Confidence until December and really focus on one class. I haven't been following through on my Bronze classes as well lately and I know there is already a lot in my library I should go back to. Plus, I just read through the first lecture for Engagement...wow! So much to work on there! Really excited for this class!


Ring confidence is a class that really deserves your time. It is systematic and builds on itself. With Ring Confidence, there really isn't any point in doing it if you aren't going to be at least moderately committed to it. It is a fabulous class and a whole lot of fun. Laura W. is incredible. She is going to do a great job with the class.

I think you are wise to wait on it.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> Ring confidence is a class that really deserves your time. It is systematic and builds on itself. With Ring Confidence, there really isn't any point in doing it if you aren't going to be at least moderately committed to it. It is a fabulous class and a whole lot of fun. Laura W. is incredible. She is going to do a great job with the class.
> 
> I think you are wise to wait on it.


Really good to hear  As I was reading the course descriptions and syllabus I started thinking maybe we need engagement first... I'm hoping that working through Engagement will get us to the point of being even more ready for the Ring Confidence class and maybe...just maybe...we could entertain the idea of our first gold class. But I've got a lot of work to do!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

kadylady said:


> Really good to hear  As I was reading the course descriptions and syllabus I started thinking maybe we need engagement first... I'm hoping that working through Engagement will get us to the point of being even more ready for the Ring Confidence class and maybe...just maybe...we could entertain the idea of our first gold class. But I've got a lot of work to do!


I think there would be a ton of value to doing it at Gold! I hope you do it!

With so many of us in Engagement, I look forward to discussing the class! I just took "Engagement" at One Happy Dog. We had a working spot. It will be interesting to see how different the two classes are..


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I just read through the Engagement class and it sounds really really good! I'm now tempted by both of them lol. 

I guess my one reservation about it is that I don't want to create a dog that asks to engage all the time, and it looks like this is what it is focused on. I don't want my dog engaging with me unless I ask for it. I typically don't have problems with engagement unless in the presence of heavy distractors (like rodents or other dogs), cause GSD blood is still GSD blood lol. When she's bored, she will come and stand/sit and just stare at me in a silent bid to train with her. And I just hate that pressure, so I don't want it to get worse...

I dunno, I'm torn? I'm afraid this class will create a nagging dog... Or am I reading it wrong?

There are quite a bit of lectures focused on play though... Which makes it all the more interesting lol.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So I bit the bullet and signed up for Engagement at Bronze. 

Went to the forums first, and clicked on the Africanis' thread in the Homework section (I used to specialize in that breed on Furry-Paws so they hold a special place in my heart ) and it sounds like that person is having a lot of the same challenges with their dog as I've got with Porsche (particularly the playing and prey drive thing), so I'm thinking this is going to be useful. 

So exciteddddd . 

(Umm, not sure about class etiquette. Are we allowed to discuss the classes here?)


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Alla said:


> (Umm, not sure about class etiquette. Are we allowed to discuss the classes here?)


If you are on FB most classes will have "lurker" groups where students that are taking or have taken the class will discuss, post videos of their work, ect. A lot of bronze students gather there to help each other out and get feedback, but I've seen silvers and golds participate too. I imagine this group will be quite active! Search FB by the class (FE140) and the group should show up as private and you just have to message the admins a screenshot of your library to prove you are in or have taken the class.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

kadylady said:


> If you are on FB most classes will have "lurker" groups where students that are taking or have taken the class will discuss, post videos of their work, ect. A lot of bronze students gather there to help each other out and get feedback, but I've seen silvers and golds participate too. I imagine this group will be quite active! Search FB by the class (FE140) and the group should show up as private and you just have to message the admins a screenshot of your library to prove you are in or have taken the class.


Hrm... I can't seem to find the group, search brings up nothing. Any chance you can link me?


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Alla said:


> Hrm... I can't seem to find the group, search brings up nothing. Any chance you can link me?


https://www.facebook.com/groups/1473817146250044/


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm glad you're doing engagement too! 

In the first lecture there is a bit about the difference between focus and engagement. It sounds like Porsche has excellent focus, but not a lot of engagement since you guys struggle with play. I think it will be a great class for you guys and will go well with the play class next term.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I'm glad you're doing engagement too!
> 
> In the first lecture there is a bit about the difference between focus and engagement. It sounds like Porsche has excellent focus, but not a lot of engagement since you guys struggle with play. I think it will be a great class for you guys and will go well with the play class next term.


I just watched the two videos of Raika and Lyra, and is it a bad sign that I much preferred Raika's video? Lol maybe because Raika just looks so much more advanced and working, while Lyra just looks like a happy bouncy puppy.

(Is it also a bad sign that I don't want Porsche's front feet anywhere near my torso? Like all the jumping on Denise that Lyra is doing, I'm just staring wide-eyed and going -do not want-)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I just watched the two videos of Raika and Lyra, and is it a bad sign that I much preferred Raika's video? Lol maybe because Raika just looks so much more advanced and working, while Lyra just looks like a happy bouncy puppy.
> 
> (Is it also a bad sign that I don't want Porsche's front feet anywhere near my torso? Like all the jumping on Denise that Lyra is doing, I'm just staring wide-eyed and going -do not want-)


Haha. I think the way you feel is how a lot of people feel when they are new to dog sport training. I think the more you get into it, the more you realize how *fun* it is when your adult dog acts like a goofy bouncy puppy over something as simple as heeling. It really helps your relationship grow in a whole new way when you move from "I'm the owner and I tell my dog what to do" to "my dog is my partner and we play together". 

And you don't have to have your dog jump up on you if you don't want to! That's valid especially with such a large dog. But don't be afraid to loosen up on manners a little temporarily in order to get a happy engaged dog. If you worry too much about rules and structure your dog won't have room to let loose and have fun. With a dog like her, if she did loosen up and try to play, but jumped on me in the process, I would totally let it go in order to boost her confidence in playing. You can then mold that play into something that doesn't involve jumping

Just look at trainingjunkie's recent post about getting her whippet to put teeth on skin. Most pet owners would be horrified by a dog biting them, but if it's in a controlled manner and is a fun way you can play and enjoy each other, what's the harm?

ETA: Also she mentions in the lecture that she will focus on the play and engagement part a lot and not so much the work part right now. The work part will come. You can't have a dog get an obedience title without work happening. But it's the play moments, and making the whole thing into a game that makes the dog want to do it, even when it gets hard. The play is the foundation that a happy working dog is built on.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Building on the play thing... It sounds like she will incorporate quite a bit of her play stuff into this class. I plan on going back through my play lectures over the next 2 weeks until class officially starts. I see that right now you can purchase the Play class lectures as a prereq if you're interested. I know Alla who were considering it at Gold and I think elrohwen at bronze? Obviously you wouldn't have the forums but you could get a head start with the lectures if interested. The lectures are pretty video heavy IMO.

http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co...6-prerequisites-purchase#prerequisite-classes


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> Building on the play thing... It sounds like she will incorporate quite a bit of her play stuff into this class. I plan on going back through my play lectures over the next 2 weeks until class officially starts. I see that right now you can purchase the Play class lectures as a prereq if you're interested. I know Alla who were considering it at Gold and I think elrohwen at bronze? Obviously you wouldn't have the forums but you could get a head start with the lectures if interested. The lectures are pretty video heavy IMO.
> 
> http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co...6-prerequisites-purchase#prerequisite-classes


Yeah, I noticed that you could buy them and it's a tough call ... I tend to pay more attention to the lecture stuff vs forums anyway, but for such an important class I kind of want access to the forums. Watson is actually really really good at personal play so I think we'll be good for this class. Our issues is transferring that relationship and play to new places which I hope engagement will help with.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I noticed that you could buy them and it's a tough call ... I tend to pay more attention to the lecture stuff vs forums anyway, but for such an important class I kind of want access to the forums. Watson is actually really really good at personal play so I think we'll be good for this class. Our issues is transferring that relationship and play to new places which I hope engagement will help with.


I was thinking it would be a tough call if you are only looking at a bronze spot. I will say I probably spent the most time in those forums of all the classes I've done. It really was great to see so many different examples and to see what each person was doing right/wrong or what was working/what wasn't, what the dogs liked/disliked, for something like play. Especially for me, having 3 totally different dogs.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kadylady said:


> I was thinking it would be a tough call if you are only looking at a bronze spot. I will say I probably spent the most time in those forums of all the classes I've done. It really was great to see so many different examples and to see what each person was doing right/wrong or what was working/what wasn't, what the dogs liked/disliked, for something like play. Especially for me, having 3 totally different dogs.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Like for Performance Fundamentals, I didn't really need to watch other people teach their dogs to sit or perch on an object. But for something that is about relationships I feel like it would be so useful to watch the gold students.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I think there's a ton of value in many of the forums. Play would be a class that I would definitely want with forums.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yeah I was considering buying the lectures of the Play class too, but if I'm able to get in at Gold I doubt I'd get a discount due to already owning the lectures... Also I don't do well with a ton of pressure to follow a lot of classes at the same time lol. I'm really excited to see everyone's videos and stuff. 

*bounces around*


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Did everyone get their "Play" book in the mail today? Looks like a winner! I had to laugh! My little whippet puppy is on page 122 being shown as a cautionary tale for the "high drive dog." It's an ugly shot that makes me smile!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

*bounce*

*bounce*

*bounce*

...these are going to be a long two weeks.



trainingjunkie said:


> Did everyone get their "Play" book in the mail today? Looks like a winner! I had to laugh! My little whippet puppy is on page 122 being shown as a cautionary tale for the "high drive dog." It's an ugly shot that makes me smile!


...Play book?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Here it is! Could give you a nice head start before class! Pre-ordered books arrived today!

http://www.thedogathlete.com/collections/homepage/products/dog-sports-skills-book-3-play


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> Here it is! Could give you a nice head start before class! Pre-ordered books arrived today!
> 
> http://www.thedogathlete.com/collections/homepage/products/dog-sports-skills-book-3-play


Cool!  It's not a requirement for the class though, is it? I kind of want to prevent information overload lol (which tends to lead to me doing nothing at all).


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Nope. It's not even part of the class. It's just the 3rd book in her dog sports series.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

I just signed up for engagement at bronze as well. I had been lurking waiting for a class that actually makes sense to take. Then I popped on here and saw a bunch of you guys taking it too. ^_^ Love it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I found a gold dog to stalk! lol 

Hugo (Bernese Mt Dog)
sounds like Manna.

Vitae doesn't have engagement problems surprisingly enough, but I might have to take a focus class in the future with her because she's all over the place.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

For those who have taken "Engagement" is it worth it? I have the money to attend a 2 day seminar by Bridget Carlsen or to take a class this term. "Engagement" is cheaper and is longer lasting time wise. But I'd really like to hear her (Bridget) speak and it's put on by my local obedience club. Her list of accomplishments is impressive. But I have a hard time paying the equivalent of another training class just to hear someone talk for 2 days (I'm just auditing). 
I thought things were good engagement wise but after reading the syllabus there is a lot to build on.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ormommy said:


> For those who have taken "Engagement" is it worth it? I have the money to attend a 2 day seminar by Bridget Carlsen or to take a class this term. "Engagement" is cheaper and is longer lasting time wise. But I'd really like to hear her (Bridget) speak and it's put on by my local obedience club. Her list of accomplishments is impressive. But I have a hard time paying the equivalent of another training class just to hear someone talk for 2 days (I'm just auditing).
> I thought things were good engagement wise but after reading the syllabus there is a lot to build on.


It's a brand new class, so nobody has taken it. Some of the same info is in the Bridging the Gap class and everyone I know who has taken that loved it.

Personally, I would go to the seminar and take the engagement class later. It will be offered again in December I think.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

ormommy-- What are your goals? I think I would take the class instead of the seminar. What is your training philosophy? 

These two women have wildly different training philosophies. Wildly.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> ormommy-- What are your goals? I think I would take the class instead of the seminar. What is your training philosophy?
> 
> These two women have wildly different training philosophies. Wildly.


That's a good point. 

I would do the seminar because I like to hear very successful dog people talk about how they do things, and it's not every day that these seminars happen near where I live.

But you have a young puppy and it sounds like you guys struggle with connection, so a seminar about getting the perfect competition heel or training the retrieve over high jump is going to be interesting, but probably not useful for what you need right now.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Also, Bridget has seminar DVD's for sale. For the money, you might be able to take the class AND own the seminar DVD for about the price of the seminar. Then you can sift through everything and make your own decisions after digesting everything thoroughly.

BC's DVD (it's from 2010 though) is $80. And the class is $65. So $150 gives you both! And they are yours to keep.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> Also, Bridget has seminar DVD's for sale. For the money, you might be able to take the class AND own the seminar DVD for about the price of the seminar. Then you can sift through everything and make your own decisions after digesting everything thoroughly.
> 
> BC's DVD (it's from 2010 though) is $80. And the class is $65. So $150 gives you both! And they are yours to keep.


...I'd go with this option if I were you.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> ormommy-- What are your goals? I think I would take the class instead of the seminar. What is your training philosophy?
> 
> These two women have wildly different training philosophies. Wildly.


Really? Can you tell me what is so different? I thought both were positive trainers...and I have looked all over Bridget's site. Very possibly I missed something.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

> That's a good point.
> 
> I would do the seminar because I like to hear very successful dog people talk about how they do things, and it's not every day that these seminars happen near where I live.
> 
> But you have a young puppy and it sounds like you guys struggle with connection, so a seminar about getting the perfect competition heel or training the retrieve.


Once that first month was over, we've connected very well. Maybe even earlier. I just went to an obedience trial and the dog that won had incredible engagement. It really made the performance stand out. That -and the fact I think it would be a good first-time class.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ormommy said:


> Once that first month was over, we've connected very well. Maybe even earlier. I just went to an obedience trial and the dog that won had incredible engagement. It really made the performance stand out. That -and the fact I think it would be a good first-time class.


Yes, by connection I mean engagement. Not just whether you feel connected to the dog or love the dog, but whether you can maintain that engagement when distracting things are going on. From your posts about his reactivity I would guess that it's something you guys are struggling with. Heck, 90% of people struggle with it.

I juts think that the Carlsen seminar may be a bit over your head for where you are with Frodo right now, and the level of training you have done. I'm sure you will get a lot out of it, but it may not give you a ton of things to implement right now, rather it might be stuff to implement a year or more from now when you both have more training under your belt. Denise's class will definitely apply to all levels of students no matter what skills they have trained, so I think trainingjunkie is probably right that it would be a better fit for you, especially if you can get Carlsen's seminar on DVD.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

Alla said:


> ...I'd go with this option if I were you.


 I think I will. I wish I could also purchase the "toy engagement class notes" (I'm on a kick  )


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ormommy said:


> I think I will. I wish I could also purchase the "toy engagement class notes" (I'm on a kick  )


You can take the Relationship Building with Play class October 1st. Then you have access to the forums too and not just the notes


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Yes, by connection I mean engagement. Not just whether you feel connected to the dog or love the dog, but whether you can maintain that engagement when distracting things are going on. From your posts about his reactivity I would guess that it's something you guys are struggling with. Heck, 90% of people struggle with it.
> .


Ok...that makes sense. Certain distractions, environments great. Others, not so much. And the command matters as much as the time...sigh....


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ormommy said:


> Ok...that makes sense. Certain distractions, environments great. Others, not so much. And the command matters as much as the time...sigh....


I think Denise's class will help so much with that.

I get the feeling that Carlsen's seminar will help your dog stop lagging at the heel, or improve retrieves, or not shut down in the ring, or whatever. But if you don't even have a heel or a retrieve and just want your dog to focus on you in the first place, that stuff is kind of graduate level stuff, you know?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> You can take the Relationship Building with Play class October 1st. Then you have access to the forums too and not just the notes


Take it with me at Gold! 

But yeah honestly I thought I didn't have many issues with engagement, but the more I look at the class and the syllabus and just live with Porsche, the more I cannot wait for this class to just start already lol. Agree with elrohwen (every time I write your name I made a billion mistakes... lol off topic, but what does it mean?), engagement makes a lot of sense with a puppy more so than a seminar you're just auditing. 

By the time you can use the info from the seminar, most of it you'll have to forgotten already. 

Join us in Engagement.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> elrohwen (every time I write your name I made a billion mistakes... lol off topic, but what does it mean?)


Haha. It's from the Lord of the Rings actually. There is a minor character named Elrohir, so I feminized it into Elrohwen (should have made it capital when I signed up here). It basically means Elf horse rider aka Elf Knight, and since I like to ride horses it seemed fitting. And I'm a huge nerd :-D


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

There's nothing better to work on with a puppy than engagement and play. All of the behaviors and skills and other things will come with time but if you don't have engagement you have nothing.

Or you have a dog like Watson who has some nice skills, but is unable to use them out and about when it really counts. Hazel, on the other hand, has very few skills, but she can engage with me just about anywhere because that has been our focus (and because she's a more handler focused dog, so she gets some credit for that).


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Haha. It's from the Lord of the Rings actually. There is a minor character named Elrohir, so I feminized it into Elrohwen (should have made it capital when I signed up here). It basically means Elf horse rider aka Elf Knight, and since I like to ride horses it seemed fitting. And I'm a huge nerd :-D


Oh! I like it. That makes it easier to remember.  I hear you on the nerd part - my rats are named Fili and Kili.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Oh! I like it. That makes it easier to remember.  I hear you on the nerd part - my rats are named Fili and Kili.


Oh yeah! I remember you mentioning that! I'm actually re-reading LOTR right and it never gets old.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Oh yeah! I remember you mentioning that! I'm actually re-reading LOTR right and it never gets old.


I recently bought all the books in hard copy and haven't gotten to them yet... Need to do that!! I've actually never read the originals in english, only in Russian... I think i'm missing out lol. 

So, back on topic, the classes start on saturday! i'm so excited.  Been hounding the forums and and facebook group, staring at all the pretty doggies!

Actually a big part of why I took Engagement at all is so I could sign up for an account now, instead of having to fill out the form frantically when signing up to the Play class and trying to catch a gold spot.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Haha. You do have to fill some stuff out again each time. If I want a gold spot I type out my credit card info into notepad and then copy/paste when it's time to go.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Haha. You do have to fill some stuff out again each time. If I want a gold spot I type out my credit card info into notepad and then copy/paste when it's time to go.


Aha so do tell, what info do you have to fill out each time? Login details and CC details, or something else?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Aha so do tell, what info do you have to fill out each time? Login details and CC details, or something else?


I think that's it. If I remember it does keep your billing address and name and stuff. So that saves a little time vs starting without a login.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

If it's OK I'm just going to edit in a few links as I browse Fenzi so I don't end up double posting 

Anyone tried the K9 Fun and Fitness section? This looks like the course you would probably want to take first, right? Is it mostly just theory or is there are a decent amount of actual practical exercises to do? And would any of y'all pay money for this kind of course?

EDIT:

Or an all-in-one husbandry course. Not until February 2016, so I'd probably see how far we got in the mean time on our own. But never a bad skill to work on.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CrimsonAccent said:


> If it's OK I'm just going to edit in a few links as I browse Fenzi so I don't end up double posting
> 
> Anyone tried the K9 Fun and Fitness section? This looks like the course you would probably want to take first, right? Is it mostly just theory or is there are a decent amount of actual practical exercises to do? And would any of y'all pay money for this kind of course?
> 
> ...


Both sound like good courses. Personally I feel like conditioning and handling are things I can train myself, so I spend my money on the classes I think I will get more out of. If I had a dog with special conditioning needs (maybe a recurring injury) or who was especially difficult to handle (needed a muzzle routinely) then I would be more likely to look into those classes.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Because I have been dealing with Zoey's on and off most likely agility related injury for the last 9 months.... and because Skye is about to start agility training soon and I'm already paranoid about keeping her sound and safe....I am highly considering one of the conditioning classes next term.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm sure most people here have Nosework down (or at least enough to not take a Fenzi class on it) but, just in case: http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/15#registration

It's for this semester. All the Gold and Silver spots are open, so if someone wanted to start on NW and has no access locally, have at it


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CrimsonAccent said:


> I'm sure most people here have Nosework down (or at least enough to not take a Fenzi class on it) but, just in case: http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/15#registration
> 
> It's for this semester. All the Gold and Silver spots are open, so if someone wanted to start on NW and has no access locally, have at it


I'm planning to wait and take NW101 this winter when I have more time for inside sports. My adult dog is pretty proficient at it, but I haven't started my puppy yet. I do have access to local classes but I don't want to go through 12 weeks of working with food if I can do it the FDSA way (which I think is faster and clearer to the dog long term)


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Are you going to put both Watson and Hazel through NW101? Or a separate course for each of them.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Are you going to put both Watson and Hazel through NW101? Or a separate course for each of them.


No, Watson is already working well beyond the NW101 level, so I won't retrain his foundation work. He is basically trial ready for the NW1 level. I've though about taking some of the other nosework classes at a more advanced level, but I'd rather just take an in person class for that stuff.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm really enjoying the engagement class so far!

This past year I've thought a lot about engagement and I've tried a lot of things that have not worked. A lightbulb kind of went off a couple months ago and it's been rolling around in my head, and much of what I was thinking is exactly what Denise is teaching (but laid out in a clear manner, with some different twists). This is coming at a perfect time for me to really absorb and use this type of training. Before I realized some of the things I realized lately, I don't think I would have gotten as much out of it.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am so glad you are liking "Engagement." I am just getting caught up after a weekend in the woods and I really like it too. So simple and relevant. 

I am totally loving the Hander's Choice class. Nancy is brilliant. It's a barrage of information for showing.

Survive to Thrive is so bizarre! I am not sure if I love it, but I am totally intrigued. So, so interesting and different from my style of thinking/training. It's so outside my toolbox that I can't help but learn.

Great session so far, but I took too many classes. It's not manageable!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Survive to Thrive is so bizarre! I am not sure if I love it, but I am totally intrigued. So, so interesting and different from my style of thinking/training. It's so outside my toolbox that I can't help but learn.


Haha. Yes, she is an odd instructor. Though I have found in working with her privately that she tailors the exercises to the dog and things are much less confusing. Right now she is basically having me work on behavior-play/food-behavior-different play/food-etc. Pretty basic engagement stuff, but around my rabbits since we are working on prey drive. We skipped over the first few lectures worth of games from the Prey Drive class which I thought were silly or a waste of time anyway. So maybe she makes more sense as a 1:1 trainer than a lecturer.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm really enjoying Engagement. I'm not the greatest at the moving around non stop, and I'm horrible at play, so I'm really looking forward to that section. When Frodo was little, he got so nippy when we played I got out of the habit. Now he jumps, not nips- much easier for me to deal with.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ormommy said:


> I'm really enjoying Engagement. I'm not the greatest at the moving around non stop, and I'm horrible at play, so I'm really looking forward to that section. When Frodo was little, he got so nippy when we played I got out of the habit. Now he jumps, not nips- much easier for me to deal with.


Oh yay! I'm glad you signed up! You should join the Facebook group - it's really great to watch even more people try it out and you can post videos of your own for others to critique. It really brings a lot more value to the course and it's free.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

so just messing around in the house...Manna is already reaching level 4 engagement, where Vitae despite being the biggest suck-up in the world might be stuck between level 2 and 3 for a while...She'd rather engage with Manna than with me outside of stage 1...and Manna's in a different room. I'll be making a youtube channel and postin a link as soon as I get motivation to do so.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Anyone else started out strong and is losing momentum quickly? I am finding it to be impossible to keep up with the posts/forums/lectures, nevermind actually doing the exercises...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Anyone else started out strong and is losing momentum quickly? I am finding it to be impossible to keep up with the posts/forums/lectures, nevermind actually doing the exercises...


I'm doing ok. We're practicing a couple times a week.

There really aren't different exercises. It's all kind of the same thing, just more information on how you should be doing it and what to look for, but the basic premise hasn't changed since the first lecture. Maybe if you think of it that way it won't seem so overwhelming?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I'm doing ok. We're practicing a couple times a week.
> 
> There really aren't different exercises. It's all kind of the same thing, just more information on how you should be doing it and what to look for, but the basic premise hasn't changed since the first lecture. Maybe if you think of it that way it won't seem so overwhelming?


I guess if you put it that way, we are practicing a couple of times a week too.  Although you've got two dogs. (Btw Hazel's last video in the schoolyard, which I watched right after Watson's similar video, blew me away!! Sidenote, do you think it's her personality, her puppyhood, or your improvement as a trainer that causes such a marked difference between the two?)

I just see everyone else participating and practicing daily and it's discouraging not being able to keep up. 

Maybe I'll just pick a few of the Gold students to follow instead of everyone. Are you following anyone specific other than Ridge?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I guess if you put it that way, we are practicing a couple of times a week too.  Although you've got two dogs. (Btw Hazel's last video in the schoolyard, which I watched right after Watson's similar video, blew me away!! Sidenote, do you think it's her personality, her puppyhood, or your improvement as a trainer that causes such a marked difference between the two?)


I think it's about 80% her personality, and 20% my improved training. I think part of it is that she's a puppy and naturally sticks close, but I've been around a lot of puppies in her various classes and none of them have her level of focus so I do think she's especially handler focused. I had a private agility lesson with her yesterday for the first time, just to go over foundation stuff (I can't find a foundations class), and the trainer was impressed with her focus, level of drive, stamina, and how operant she was. 



> I just see everyone else participating and practicing daily and it's discouraging not being able to keep up.


Do you mean on the FB page, or the Gold people? Participation tends to drop over time, so people will stop posting so much after a couple weeks. The people in the FB thread aren't posting videos every day for the most part, but since someone is always posting something it does seem to move quickly. The Gold people should be posting a lot, since they paid for the one on one instruction.



> Maybe I'll just pick a few of the Gold students to follow instead of everyone. Are you following anyone specific other than Ridge?


That's what I do. I'm following Ridge right now mostly. I am going through and reading most of the Gold stuff, but not watching the videos except for a few people. I follow Jill and Tia since she tends to ask a lot of specific questions beyond her videos and Denise's answers are helpful. I think the Lagotto and the Cavalier will be useful for us but neither of them post a ton.

I think Chalo would be a good one for you to follow. He reminds me a bit of Porsche in his relationship to his handler.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> I think Chalo would be a good one for you to follow. He reminds me a bit of Porsche in his relationship to his handler.


I had him singled out since the Golds posted their intros. Although I guess it says a lot about me as a handler that my relationship with my GSD, arguably the most biddable of breeds, is equal to that of an Africanis with his handler. Lol. Ah well. No one else has stood out as having similar problems to us, although I'm learning a lot from the videos of Finnian on the FB group.



> Do you mean on the FB page, or the Gold people? Participation tends to drop over time, so people will stop posting so much after a couple weeks. The people in the FB thread aren't posting videos every day for the most part, but since someone is always posting something it does seem to move quickly. The Gold people should be posting a lot, since they paid for the one on one instruction.


I mean both actually. Yeah I bet engagement drops off after a bit (har har, see what I did there?), but given how many people there are in the class someone's always posting something. I think I'll stop pressuring myself to read -everything- posted by everyone.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I had him singled out since the Golds posted their intros. Although I guess it says a lot about me as a handler that my relationship with my GSD, arguably the most biddable of breeds, is equal to that of an Africanis with his handler. Lol. Ah well. No one else has stood out as having similar problems to us, although I'm learning a lot from the videos of Finnian on the FB group.


I was just going to say Finnian! I watched one of his videos this morning and he reminded me a lot of Porsche.




> I mean both actually. Yeah I bet engagement drops off after a bit (har har, see what I did there?), but given how many people there are in the class someone's always posting something. I think I'll stop pressuring myself to read -everything- posted by everyone.


It depends on the class how closely I pay attention. When I did performance fundamentals, I didn't read many of the gold threads at all, because I didn't really need help teaching a sit or a pivot and the concepts were easy. For engagement I'm watching a lot more and paying attention more, mostly because I think Denise drops a lot of really good information into her comments. So I might skip over a lot of the specific stuff about what happened at each second of the video and just read her more general comments about each dog, then decide if it's worth going back to watch their video, if that makes sense.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So I just watched Chalo's video in the what makes a human engaging video and wow that looks like it might work with Porsche too. I loved seeing Chalo engage like that - such a different picture from their stage 1 video! I'm totally trying this at lunch. 



> It depends on the class how closely I pay attention. When I did performance fundamentals, I didn't read many of the gold threads at all, because I didn't really need help teaching a sit or a pivot and the concepts were easy. For engagement I'm watching a lot more and paying attention more, mostly because I think Denise drops a lot of really good information into her comments. So I might skip over a lot of the specific stuff about what happened at each second of the video and just read her more general comments about each dog, then decide if it's worth going back to watch their video, if that makes sense.


This makes a lot of sense. I'm usually prone to reading and watching -everything- but I guess when it feels like I -have- to, I lose interest.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ok so I'm coming into the engagement class late. Been debating about it but we definitely need help in engagement in agility at trials so maybe it'll help!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Ok so I'm coming into the engagement class late. Been debating about it but we definitely need help in engagement in agility at trials so maybe it'll help!


Yay! There is a lot of reading to get caught up on, but you might be in a better place. There was a lot of confusion at first as not all of the information was released right away, but now there is enough stuff to really get the hang of it and start working.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh gosh there is a TON of material already posted. Looks like a lot more than my last classes!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Oh gosh there is a TON of material already posted. Looks like a lot more than my last classes!


Yeah, Denise's classes tend to be really dense with material!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> Oh gosh there is a TON of material already posted. Looks like a lot more than my last classes!


The lectures are short and succinct though.  Welcome!!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> Haha. It's from the Lord of the Rings actually. There is a minor character named Elrohir, so I feminized it into Elrohwen (should have made it capital when I signed up here). It basically means Elf horse rider aka Elf Knight, and since I like to ride horses it seemed fitting. And I'm a huge nerd :-D


I'm a nerd too. If you couldn't tell. 

Yay LOTR!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I also just bought all of Denise's dog sport books. Thank you thread. LOL


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I'm a nerd too. If you couldn't tell.
> 
> Yay LOTR!


Yay nerds!



Laurelin said:


> I also just bought all of Denise's dog sport books. Thank you thread. LOL


Oo, definitely post what you think when you're done reading. I was disappointed with the first two (well written, just too basic) but I love the third.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Oo, definitely post what you think when you're done reading. I was disappointed with the first two (well written, just too basic) but I love the third.


Third one is the play one, right?

I tried to play with porsche on lunch. Video in FB group. *facepalm*


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Third one is the play one, right?
> 
> I tried to play with porsche on lunch. Video in FB group. *facepalm*


I commented!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I watched Bauer's recent video and that is so much like Watson. Definitely adding them to the list of people to keep a close eye on.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Haven't really watched many of the videos of the golds, but I figured I'm going to work on straight up engagement now and leave learning to play until the Play class in October, since they can't be combined. 

Gots enough to do at the moment... Starting tracking classes tonight, agility thursdays, reactivity training on every walk, and engagement training sessions somewhere in the middle of all that. Sheesh.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm just now starting the class. Any pretty drivey dogs to watch? I saw where she said to match energy with your dog... that should be interesting?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Not really on the drivey dogs. I feel like the drivey ones are easier because at least you have something to motivate them. Most of the dogs in the class are lower drive. Shine is fairly high drive I guess but not the way Hank is. Some silver person just asked about high arousal dogs and Denise said there weren't really any.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

In a way yes, he's easier. But the flip (for Hank at least) is he is easily aroused by play/work and ALSO easily aroused by outside stimulus to a similar degree. Sometimes I lose to the novelty of the outside stimulus. It does seem like this class is mostly lower key dogs which is cool but also not the most helpful for us. I was kind of hoping there'd be more stuff on overcoming distractions. I feel like Hank's energy type is quite different than what I'm watching so it's hard to apply... 

Still good stuff.

For example this is one of Hank's very first sessions with me after I adopted him with not much other training.

Which is pretty good engagement? 






But if we see other exciting things he loses it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, it doesn't look like you guys have an engagement problem to me. I'm sure you'll get some stuff out of the class, but it's more for the lower drive dogs or the ones who just don't interact with their owners in distracting environments.

As far as overcoming distractions, I would guess that Denise's answer is that you need to give him time to acclimate and enough breaks. He may be getting distracted because he's tired and looking for something else to focus on for a minute, but if you built in more breaks he would be able to resist distractions better. The FCR in the class is like that. Not sure if that's helpful at all. It seems like the goal is to work on engagement, reward the dog for choosing you over the distraction, and build up the level of distraction slowly. If they can't handle that distraction, just release them to take a break and wait for them to come back to you.

I think the key take aways from the class so far as to not beg your dog to work - wait for them to choose you, and even push you, and then break out and be exciting. That works for dogs of any drive level. 

Have you joined the FB group? I think there are some higher drive dogs there and people are posting videos and commenting. Or if you post a video people might be able to help.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Question for anyone who's taken Precision Heeling. 

I've had my eye on that class for a while. What level did you take it at, how much work was involved, and would you recommend it at Bronze?
I'm considering it at Bronze in October together with the Play class at Gold, but not sure if that would be way too much and if I should leave heeling until some point in the undefined future.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Question for anyone who's taken Precision Heeling.
> 
> I've had my eye on that class for a while. What level did you take it at, how much work was involved, and would you recommend it at Bronze?
> I'm considering it at Bronze in October together with the Play class at Gold, but not sure if that would be way too much and if I should leave heeling until some point in the undefined future.


PH is a lot of info, and a lot of it is given up front, so you can work through as you can. There is also content introduced through the class and the stuff from week 4 onwards will probably be too advanced for you. Even doing it at Gold and working hard, we never got passed maybe the 3rd week of material in the space of the class. So it's good in that it gives you detail about how to start, and then where to go with it later.

It's really up to you if you think you could handle both. I suspect that you would have to put off doing most of the work for PH and then go back to it later, which may or may not work for you. It's really a mechanical skills class, and most of the skills introduced are fairly basic, so I think you could probably make a decent go of it at a later date with the materials given. It's not like what you do with the material is dependent on the individual dog, the way a play class would be, for example.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> PH is a lot of info, and a lot of it is given up front, so you can work through as you can. There is also content introduced through the class and the stuff from week 4 onwards will probably be too advanced for you. Even doing it at Gold and working hard, we never got passed maybe the 3rd week of material in the space of the class. So it's good in that it gives you detail about how to start, and then where to go with it later.
> 
> It's really up to you if you think you could handle both. I suspect that you would have to put off doing most of the work for PH and then go back to it later, which may or may not work for you. It's really a mechanical skills class, and most of the skills introduced are fairly basic, so I think you could probably make a decent go of it at a later date with the materials given. It's not like what you do with the material is dependent on the individual dog, the way a play class would be, for example.


Yeah, it doesn't sound like a good idea next term then. If you guys struggled getting past the halfway point skill-wise at Gold, at Bronze I'd likely be liable to toss it on the backburner and then never come back to it.  Looks like another Gold class at some point in the future.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Yeah, it doesn't sound like a good idea next term then. If you guys struggled getting past the halfway point skill-wise at Gold, at Bronze I'd likely be liable to toss it on the backburner and then never come back to it.  Looks like another Gold class at some point in the future.


We were super beginners so we learned a ton but didn't get through all of the material. I did feel like I knew how to finish on my own after class though. Most people started from a more advanced place and did much more which was useful to watch.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> We were super beginners so we learned a ton but didn't get through all of the material. I did feel like I knew how to finish on my own after class though. Most people started from a more advanced place and did much more which was useful to watch.


Lol we're complete beginners too.  Although she will (slowly, with some coordination trouble), pivot to stay in front of me. I've yet to be successful in getting even a step with me facing the same direction she is, i.e. in heel position. She just gets all bent out of shape lol. Like literally a 90-degree angle lol.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> Lol we're complete beginners too.  Although she will (slowly, with some coordination trouble), pivot to stay in front of me. I've yet to be successful in getting even a step with me facing the same direction she is, i.e. in heel position. She just gets all bent out of shape lol. Like literally a 90-degree angle lol.


I would wait. It's a really dense class. It's also sort of an ideal class to take when you have to be training in small spaces for a while.

Do you intend to compete?

While there was lots of great stuff in the class, it wasn't one of my favorites.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am still in the "Surviving to Thriving" class. 

I absolutely have no idea how I feel about it. It fringes on "crazy voodoo" and brilliance. Lots of really, really cool games to play with a dog though. I am glad I am taking it, but I shake my head a lot. I am just observing, not working it at this time. I definitely will go back and play the games though.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I would wait. It's a really dense class. It's also sort of an ideal class to take when you have to be training in small spaces for a while.
> 
> Do you intend to compete?
> 
> While there was lots of great stuff in the class, it wasn't one of my favorites.


I really liked it for a couple reasons. For one, I was still very green, and a skills only class, vs something more nebulous and relationship based, was perfect for me. The second thing I liked is that it opened up the world of heeling for me. While there are many things I like about the place we train, they do not really train heeling in a systematic way. Watson basically had a LLW with no attention and that was his heel, and really had no idea how to make it look like the competition heeling I see. So for me the class came along at a very good time for me. I wouldn't take it again because I have the lectures and I know the theory now and it's all fairly basic if you've every trained a heel before, but at the time it was a whole new world for me. Haha.



trainingjunkie said:


> I am still in the "Surviving to Thriving" class.
> 
> I absolutely have no idea how I feel about it. It fringes on "crazy voodoo" and brilliance. Lots of really, really cool games to play with a dog though. I am glad I am taking it, but I shake my head a lot. I am just observing, not working it at this time. I definitely will go back and play the games though.


Hahaha. Yeah, that's pretty accurate for how I felt about her other class. I feel bad that I've dropped off of training with Jamie online, when it was so nice of her to offer. Though at least the stuff she had me working on made sense (more basic engagement exercises vs weird games). And I just really do not do well with the whole "energy" and magical type concepts. I'm an engineer, I am efficient and scientific and I can't stick with something when it feels so fluffy without any clear direction.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The engagement class and some of the discussions on FB are giving me so much to think about. It is so so hard for me to go somewhere to train and have Watson ignore me and then go home. It's so hard to think that he is learning something (something good!) by doing that. I want to end everything with engagement even if I kind of have to beg or force. We are giving it a real shot at least. Nothing else I've tried (from begging to corrections) has worked.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What is the FB group name? That sounds like a discussion that would benefit me and Hank.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> What is the FB group name? That sounds like a discussion that would benefit me and Hank.


FDSA FE140 Engagement Student Discussion Group


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also for the next session I am interested in these but will probably only take 1. suggestions?

•FE101: Relationship Building Through Play taught by Denise Fenzi
•FE105: Get Focused! taught by Deborah Jones, Judy Keller
•FE185: Drives and Control 2 - Creating a Balance taught by Shade Whitesel
•AG500: Agility Problem Solving taught by Nancy Gagliardi Little

Well I guess I need Drives and Control 1 first so that knocks that out.

Leaning towards FE101


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Also for the next session I am interested in these but will probably only take 1. suggestions?
> 
> •FE101: Relationship Building Through Play taught by Denise Fenzi
> •FE105: Get Focused! taught by Deborah Jones, Judy Keller
> ...


I haven't taken Play but I've heard excellent things. I also really like the other stuff Denise has written about play (in Engagement, in her book). 

I think you'll find Get Focused to be too basic. I was a bit let down by it. I think because I have a dog who can always look at me and take a treat (most of the gist of the class) but still not be engaged at all. The focus class obviously didn't solve that because that's as far as it trained. Not a bad class, just not all that helpful or mind blowing.

No clue about the others!



Laurelin said:


> What is the FB group name? That sounds like a discussion that would benefit me and Hank.


Also, read Ridge and Bauer's posts in the class. Lots of that discussion happening for them.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> I would wait. It's a really dense class. It's also sort of an ideal class to take when you have to be training in small spaces for a while.
> 
> Do you intend to compete?
> 
> While there was lots of great stuff in the class, it wasn't one of my favorites.


I don't really have any intention to compete i.e. goal-wise. However, if in the course of our training-for-fun we get to a competitive level, I most likely will compete in whatever it is that she's ready for. Why, does that make a difference for this class?

Now I'm curious as to what your favourites are/were. 



> While there are many things I like about the place we train, they do not really train heeling in a systematic way. Watson basically had a LLW with no attention and that was his heel, and really had no idea how to make it look like the competition heeling I see. So for me the class came along at a very good time for me.


This totally feels like me/us. Speaking on the subject of heeling, I came across the "choose to heel" method the other day on youtube, and immediately tried it. It's very low pressure and feels like shaping the heeling position in motion. Wondering if anyone has any opinions on the method? I know there's a billion and one ways to teach heeling, but so far I haven't tried anything that I've stuck to really. Would it be compatible with PH, or better to just choose a method and stick with it?



> And I just really do not do well with the whole "energy" and magical type concepts.


...Now that is very much down -my- alley lol. Even though I tend to overthink and overanalyze and whatnot. I'm curious, what kind of stuff in there is based on those kinds of concepts?



> The engagement class and some of the discussions on FB are giving me so much to think about. It is so so hard for me to go somewhere to train and have Watson ignore me and then go home. It's so hard to think that he is learning something (something good!) by doing that. I want to end everything with engagement even if I kind of have to beg or force. We are giving it a real shot at least. Nothing else I've tried (from begging to corrections) has worked.


Perhaps if you have too many of these "go somewhere and end after doing nothing" sessions it would be prudent to dial down the difficulty of the location/size of area he gets to acclimate to?

I have to say I'm pretty darn lucky in that as long as there are no dogs in the vicinity, Porsche's acclimation time in most locations is measured in just a few minutes. I did a stage 2 video today in the park, and happened to have a crowd of 6-7 kids walking through/around our chosen session area, and then started playing soccer just behind the camera. One of them stopped to talk to me about a frog he wanted to catch (ignoring the fact that I was more focused on the dog than on him), and Porsche just kept asking for engagement while they were all there. No interest beyond a few seconds when they first appeared.



> Also for the next session I am interested in these but will probably only take 1. suggestions?
> 
> •FE101: Relationship Building Through Play taught by Denise Fenzi
> •FE105: Get Focused! taught by Deborah Jones, Judy Keller
> ...


I haven't taken any of them, but I'm biased towards Play hahahaha.  Who would you be doing it with? Judging from some of your videos of Hank, he doesn't need it at all. I think Agility problem solving might be more worthwhile for you, at least with Hank. </random advice from random internet person>


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I need an advanced focus type class. How to keep focus in a young dog who is easily overstimulated by essentially everything and then his brain falls out his ears. 

Probably will do the play class.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> I need an advanced focus type class. How to keep focus in a young dog who is easily overstimulated by essentially everything and then his brain falls out his ears.
> 
> Probably will do the play class.


Sounds like Engagement is down your alley then.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I don't really have any intention to compete i.e. goal-wise. However, if in the course of our training-for-fun we get to a competitive level, I most likely will compete in whatever it is that she's ready for. Why, does that make a difference for this class?


Not sure about what trainingjunkie would say, but IME the stuff in that class is very specific and very fine tuned. Not really "fun" unless you really like heeling and want to train a competition heel. Personally, I didn't realize how fun heeling was until I took this class. It became fun when my dog and I both finally realized what we were aiming for. And some of the things we worked on (left pivots specifically) became his favorite things to work on.




> This totally feels like me/us. Speaking on the subject of heeling, I came across the "choose to heel" method the other day on youtube, and immediately tried it. It's very low pressure and feels like shaping the heeling position in motion. Wondering if anyone has any opinions on the method? I know there's a billion and one ways to teach heeling, but so far I haven't tried anything that I've stuck to really. Would it be compatible with PH, or better to just choose a method and stick with it?


Personally, and I'm sure others will disagree, but I don't really "get" Choose to Heel. It's fine if you are trying to get a new dog or puppy to have some reward history in heel position, and figure out that there is a reward zone next to your left side. But as far as teaching animation, precision, and exact positioning I haven't found it useful at all. Maybe I just haven't done it enough or done it correctly, but I've watched the videos and still come away underwhelmed. I think Choose to Heel is a fine method to combine with other methods, especially once the dog fully understands the criteria for the heel (head up, exact position, how to use their rear end), but it won't train a nice heel on its own. Like, now that Watson understands what I want in a heel I can do some Choose to Heel stuff and he can offer a nice heel and I can reward it. But back when he just had a loose blah heel with no criteria it didn't make him any better. He got more confident and excited about heeling after I showed him exactly what I wanted with no grey areas and without him having to guess at what I wanted.



> ...Now that is very much down -my- alley lol. Even though I tend to overthink and overanalyze and whatnot. I'm curious, what kind of stuff in there is based on those kinds of concepts?


The class I took was all games. Like, having the dog hold a ball still with thir nose. Or just sniffing for treats in the grass. Fun for the dog, maybe even for the owner, but we were supposed to be solving prey drive issues. And her lectures tended to ramble on and on about relationship without any direction or path to get there, except some weird shaping game at the end.




> Perhaps if you have too many of these "go somewhere and end after doing nothing" sessions it would be prudent to dial down the difficulty of the location/size of area he gets to acclimate to?


The problem with him (and I've heard this from some others on the FB group) is that home is like a 1-3, and everywhere else is like a 7-10. He's not focused on any specific trigger, it's more "Yay! I'm somewhere different! Must check out all of the things!" I wouldn't take him to like a farm with livestock or something, but even a generic empty parking lot is very hard for him. I think limiting the size of the acclimation area will help, and we are using down/stays as well which help him in class. But I do think we will have sessions where I basically don't have a dog at all and I have to make peace with that and take it as information instead of taking it personally.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I need an advanced focus type class. How to keep focus in a young dog who is easily overstimulated by essentially everything and then his brain falls out his ears.
> 
> Probably will do the play class.


I think Engagement is that class. Hank is more engaged than Watson, but the general issue of overstimulation and losing his brain is the same.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Also for the next session I am interested in these but will probably only take 1. suggestions?
> 
> •FE101: Relationship Building Through Play taught by Denise Fenzi
> •FE105: Get Focused! taught by Deborah Jones, Judy Keller
> ...


I would take Nancy Gagliardi Little's class. She is fabulous. Really.

I think "Focused" will be beneath you. I think your play looks really good in every video I have ever seen of you. And if you take "Drives and Control 2" (which I have not!) I think you can buy class one and get just the lectures. But then you aren't eligible for Gold.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I would take Nancy Gagliardi Little's class. She is fabulous. Really.
> 
> I think "Focused" will be beneath you. I think your play looks really good in every video I have ever seen of you. And if you take "Drives and Control 2" (which I have not!) I think you can buy class one and get just the lectures. But then you aren't eligible for Gold.


I'm not really sure what Drives and Control covers, but since it's Shade's class it's more likely to have the higher drive dogs with impulse control issues, which sounds like Hank. Might be worth buying the first class and trying to catch up.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> I don't really have any intention to compete i.e. goal-wise. However, if in the course of our training-for-fun we get to a competitive level, I most likely will compete in whatever it is that she's ready for. Why, does that make a difference for this class?
> 
> Now I'm curious as to what your favourites are/were.


I loved "Bridging the Gap." I really like "Engagement." "Training Excellence 1 and 2" with Margaret Simek was revolutionary. Margaret Simek is no longer at the academy but has her own-- One Happy Dog. 

I loved "Impulse Control for the Agility Dog" with Nancy Gagliardi Little. Really profoundly changed my training. I am also loving her "Handler's Choice" class. I am a pretty big fan. I sometimes train with her in person and she is amazing.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Not sure about what trainingjunkie would say, but IME the stuff in that class is very specific and very fine tuned. Not really "fun" unless you really like heeling and want to train a competition heel. Personally, I didn't realize how fun heeling was until I took this class. It became fun when my dog and I both finally realized what we were aiming for. And some of the things we worked on (left pivots specifically) became his favorite things to work on.


What little I've done of heeling has been really fun. And I feel it sorely missing from my repertoire - Porsche is great at stationary stuff, but if I need to move somewhere with her attention on me, she falls apart after the first step. God forbid distractions exist. The engagement class is helping with this, with the two minor issues of it being choice-based (i.e. I can't ask her to engage when another dog is in the vicinity), and that I have no clue where I'm going since I'm backing away from her. 

Plus I think a polished heel just looks super cool and it's the foundation of like half the dog sports out there. 



> Personally, and I'm sure others will disagree, but I don't really "get" Choose to Heel. It's fine if you are trying to get a new dog or puppy to have some reward history in heel position, and figure out that there is a reward zone next to your left side. But as far as teaching animation, precision, and exact positioning I haven't found it useful at all. Maybe I just haven't done it enough or done it correctly, but I've watched the videos and still come away underwhelmed. I think Choose to Heel is a fine method to combine with other methods, especially once the dog fully understands the criteria for the heel (head up, exact position, how to use their rear end), but it won't train a nice heel on its own. Like, now that Watson understands what I want in a heel I can do some Choose to Heel stuff and he can offer a nice heel and I can reward it. But back when he just had a loose blah heel with no criteria it didn't make him any better. He got more confident and excited about heeling after I showed him exactly what I wanted with no grey areas and without him having to guess at what I wanted.


I see what you mean, and that makes sense. I guess I just liked it cause it looked like a very low-pressure way to work on heeling. But you're right, I doubt it would produce a pretty and polished heel. Great, one more thing off my plate for now. 



> The problem with him (and I've heard this from some others on the FB group) is that home is like a 1-3, and everywhere else is like a 7-10.


What about something very incremental? Like literally on your front porch (not even the driveway)? Or if that's already a 7-10, perhaps your entrance, in the house, with the door to the outside wide open? Or if even that's too much, in the house in front of the closed door, then in front of a slightly open door, etc?

There's gotta be something between 1-3 and 7-10 lol.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> What about something very incremental? Like literally on your front porch (not even the driveway)? Or if that's already a 7-10, perhaps your entrance, in the house, with the door to the outside wide open? Or if even that's too much, in the house in front of the closed door, then in front of a slightly open door, etc?
> 
> There's gotta be something between 1-3 and 7-10 lol.



By "home" I meant anywhere on our property and anywhere I can walk to from home (rail trail, down my street, etc) - like inside the house is a 1, and our field is maybe a 3. Any time we have to get in the car to go somewhere it's super overstimulating and exciting and his brain is gone. The training facility is the only other place he can work, because he's been going there weekly for a long time, but also because a training facility has context and is a place we work so he can work reasonably well in new facilities. But a park is just an exciting place with a million things going on and no expectations. I think he's a very black and white dog as far as knowing what to expect and right now there are no clear expectations in places away from home other than training facilities. That's what I'm trying to fix, but it's hard.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> By "home" I meant anywhere on our property and anywhere I can walk to from home (rail trail, down my street, etc) - like inside the house is a 1, and our field is maybe a 3. Any time we have to get in the car to go somewhere it's super overstimulating and exciting and his brain is gone. The training facility is the only other place he can work, because he's been going there weekly for a long time, but also because a training facility has context and is a place we work so he can work reasonably well in new facilities. But a park is just an exciting place with a million things going on and no expectations. I think he's a very black and white dog as far as knowing what to expect and right now there are no clear expectations in places away from home other than training facilities. That's what I'm trying to fix, but it's hard.


Forgive me if this is unsolicited advice but I'm just throwing stuff at the wall. 

What happens if you get in the car, drive around the block, then come back and work on your driveway, or on your field, or anywhere else that is technically "home"?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Forgive me if this is unsolicited advice but I'm just throwing stuff at the wall.
> 
> What happens if you get in the car, drive around the block, then come back and work on your driveway, or on your field, or anywhere else that is technically "home"?


He's excited, more "up", but still able to work. That's not a bad idea actually - get him into the same mental state in anticipation of going somewhere cool, and then come back and work in a place he's been able to work before.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> He's excited, more "up", but still able to work. That's not a bad idea actually - get him into the same mental state in anticipation of going somewhere cool, and then come back and work in a place he's been able to work before.


 Maybe that might be a way to bridge the excitement gap? 

I'm just thinking that the sessions of go-somewhere-do-nothing-go-home, if you have a dog that gets worn out mentally before he ever loses interest in the environment, might be a lost cause to do long term. Watson makes me think of the type of dog that Denise said would be a candidate for negative punishment in the recent lecture. Maybe.

Although another idea - if you go somewhere new, give him 10 square feet, wait him out, if he doesn't ask for anything that's fine. Come back the next day to those exact same 10 square feet, see if he's still just as hyper about that space, and if you can make any headway that way.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Maybe that might be a way to bridge the excitement gap?
> 
> I'm just thinking that the sessions of go-somewhere-do-nothing-go-home, if you have a dog that gets worn out mentally before he ever loses interest in the environment, might be a lost cause to do long term. Watson makes me think of the type of dog that Denise said would be a candidate for negative punishment in the recent lecture. Maybe.


Yeah, I can't decide if that's a good idea for him or not. He can be soft, strangely soft in a way that isn't immediately obvious, and I don't want him to be confused. But then he does absolutely self-reward on the environment. 

He's one of those dogs who will look at me 30sec into getting to a place, because that's been trained and he thinks if he looks I will give him permission to do what he wants. But his looking at me is not a desire to engage. At least not yet. He's a liar, like Denise has talked about with other dogs. But I feel like it's a start. He's trying to figure out how to "work me", except right now he's trying to get me to give him freedom. Once he realizes he doesn't get freedom (we stay in a small space and he's often on a down/stay) he will want to engage instead. I have figured out that a lot of the reason he works with me at all is that he has energy and nowhere to put it, because I won't let him do what he wants (in training class, or at home where things are just boring). So I'm trying to trust the process let him figure this out on his own.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Yeah, I can't decide if that's a good idea for him or not. He can be soft, strangely soft in a way that isn't immediately obvious, and I don't want him to be confused. But then he does absolutely self-reward on the environment.


I don't think Denise's proposed punishments are the kind that would break even a soft dog. It's essentially a time-out on the road. You can further reduce the severity of the correction by playing the game at home - get in the car, get a treat. Wait a minute, come out of the car. Get in the car, get a treat. Wait a minute, come out of the car. You can probably even combine it with a stage 2/3 engagement session, and use the car for the "take a break" portion. 

Then when you go on the road and give him 5 minutes to acclimate, if he doesn't offer anything put him back in the car, perhaps with a small treat. So he gets a positive experience, just not the kind of positive experience he wants (treat in boring car vs the omg environment). 

And you know him, after all. If you sense he's shutting down, you can always cut the session short. I doubt one (or even a few) in-car timeouts would break any dog. Worst that could happen is you realize that technique shouldn't be used on him because he gets confused.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I don't think Denise's proposed punishments are the kind that would break even a soft dog. It's essentially a time-out on the road. You can further reduce the severity of the correction by playing the game at home - get in the car, get a treat. Wait a minute, come out of the car. Get in the car, get a treat. Wait a minute, come out of the car. You can probably even combine it with a stage 2/3 engagement session, and use the car for the "take a break" portion.
> 
> Then when you go on the road and give him 5 minutes to acclimate, if he doesn't offer anything put him back in the car, perhaps with a small treat. So he gets a positive experience, just not the kind of positive experience he wants (treat in boring car vs the omg environment).
> 
> And you know him, after all. If you sense he's shutting down, you can always cut the session short. I doubt one (or even a few) in-car timeouts would break any dog. Worst that could happen is you realize that technique shouldn't be used on him because he gets confused.


Denise also cautions that she wouldn't use that form of punishment on most dogs, especially those who don't have a love of work. So I'm not sure if it would be a good idea for him. I've sort of tried something similar in other situations and it worked, but those were much more boring places where he couldn't self-reinforce. I've also tried putting him in the car, pulling out Hazel, then giving him another chance and it didn't seem to help. As Denise said, going home with no cookies or interaction after 20min may teach him something after all.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> As Denise said, going home with no cookies or interaction after 20min may teach him something after all.


Hopefully.  Especially as you do engagement training in less exciting areas, eventually he'll figure it out I think. Unless his love of the environment is too great - but then again, he is at a 3 in the environment around your house, it just took a long time.

ETA: nevermind, I'll just post my question along with the video in the FB group tonight.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

trainingjunkie said:


> I loved "Bridging the Gap." I really like "Engagement." "Training Excellence 1 and 2" with Margaret Simek was revolutionary. Margaret Simek is no longer at the academy but has her own-- One Happy Dog.
> 
> I loved *"Impulse Control for the Agility Dog" with Nancy Gagliardi Little*. Really profoundly changed my training. I am also loving her "Handler's Choice" class. I am a pretty big fan. I sometimes train with her in person and she is amazing.


That one sounds amazing! That's what we need!

Maybe I can pull two classes next term.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I do think lesson 4 in engagement is covering where I am with Hank. Which is getting the engagement I get with him generally in all situations. My issue is in 95% of the time he is perfectly engaged but that 5%. Oh boy. And the environments he is not engaged in are very hard to replicate (like a trial). I do have some new ideas. My end goal is going to be getting engagement from him at the dog park/right outside the dog park. At this point I CAN work him in the middle of the dog park but only after a long period of acclimation.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I do think lesson 4 in engagement is covering where I am with Hank. Which is getting the engagement I get with him generally in all situations. My issue is in 95% of the time he is perfectly engaged but that 5%. Oh boy. And the environments he is not engaged in are very hard to replicate (like a trial). I do have some new ideas. My end goal is going to be getting engagement from him at the dog park/right outside the dog park. At this point I CAN work him in the middle of the dog park but only after a long period of acclimation.


Yeah, I think you're in a different spot with him vs most of the people in the class, but if you go through the exercises in places that are hard for him (including letting him have breaks to just look around) I think he will improve with time. You're just starting off at a much better place.

Hazel has no issues with engagement so far, but I'm going through the steps with her. I think it will help to have a standard protocol of engagement so she understands when I want engagement and when I don't. That's something that I see I've missed with Watson.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Hazel has no issues with engagement so far, but I'm going through the steps with her. I think it will help to have a standard protocol of engagement so she understands when I want engagement and when I don't. That's something that I see I've missed with Watson.


Actually this is kind of something I'm struggling with. The whole protocol. How are you using it to differentiate when you want engagement and when you don't? Just by limiting acclimation area and then standing still? I'm finding that for example in class, when we're on break, I want to just stand and watch the others doing their turn - but if I just stand and watch, Porsche will attempt to engage, cause that's kind of the protocol, right? I could put her on a long down stay, but our long down stay isn't developed so I need to be reinforcing every few seconds, which basically means mental pressure for me instead of being able to just watch. I'd rather walk around with her instead of doing the long down stay.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Actually this is kind of something I'm struggling with. The whole protocol. How are you using it to differentiate when you want engagement and when you don't? Just by limiting acclimation area and then standing still? I'm finding that for example in class, when we're on break, I want to just stand and watch the others doing their turn - but if I just stand and watch, Porsche will attempt to engage, cause that's kind of the protocol, right? I could put her on a long down stay, but our long down stay isn't developed so I need to be reinforcing every few seconds, which basically means mental pressure for me instead of being able to just watch. I'd rather walk around with her instead of doing the long down stay.


If you stand still and look at your dog, then you are ready to engage when they are. If you are not looking at your dog (especially if you're moving, but even if you're not) then you are not available for engagement right that minute. So if you are standing at watching others work during class, then you are not signalling to her that she should engage with you. 

You are also not doing engagement work at a training class right now probably. The engagement sessions following what is done in class should be kept separate from other training sessions at first.

Honestly, I would worry more about what your dog is doing than about watching the other students if that's what you need to do at this point. I've spent years not watching anybody else because I needed to manage Watson. It gets better and they get better about chilling and remaining in a down while you focus on something else, but that's completely separate to engagement.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> If you stand still and look at your dog, then you are ready to engage when they are. If you are not looking at your dog (especially if you're moving, but even if you're not) then you are not available for engagement right that minute. So if you are standing at watching others work during class, then you are not signalling to her that she should engage with you. You are also not doing engagement work at a training class right now probably. The engagement sessions following what is done in class should be kept separate from other training sessions at first.
> 
> Honestly, I would worry more about what your dog is doing than about watching the other students if that's what you need to do at this point. I've spent years not watching anybody else because I needed to manage Watson. It gets better and they get better about chilling and remaining in a down while you focus on something else, but that's completely separate to engagement.


I am focused on her 90% of the time, especially around other dogs in the class. I do find that I need a mental break almost as much as she does, though, hence the interest in watching others work instead of being 100% with her for the entire time. No, I'm not practicing engagement in class, or at least trying not to haha. I do find it hard to not look at her though in those remaining 10%, because if she's not focused on me I need to be sure she's not focused on the other dogs... which leads to her focusing on me lol. And it's a loop like that. 

I guess I just have to suck it up and ignore her if I'm not looking at her.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I am focused on her 90% of the time, especially around other dogs in the class. I do find that I need a mental break almost as much as she does, though, hence the interest in watching others work instead of being 100% with her for the entire time. No, I'm not practicing engagement in class, or at least trying not to haha. I do find it hard to not look at her though in those remaining 10%, because if she's not focused on me I need to be sure she's not focused on the other dogs... which leads to her focusing on me lol. And it's a loop like that.
> 
> I guess I just have to suck it up and ignore her if I'm not looking at her.


If you have to look at her then do that. I guess I don't see the issue right now since you're not doing an engagement session. You are looking at her, and that's asking her to look back at you just by your body language and that's fine. I wouldn't ignore my dog in class ever unless they were crated and out of the way. If I'm at the other end of the leash I know exactly what my dog is doing even if I'm not looking at him directly. And yeah, it is exhausting if you have a certain type of dog or if you're not used to it. It's taken 2.5 years to get Watson to the point where I do not have to particularly focus on him during down time, and he will just hold a down/stay.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that your question is a good one, and there are a lot of things to think about during down time in class (crate, mat, down stay, etc) and how much you want to keep your dog on their toes vs letting them totally relax. But I don't think it has to do with this engagement stuff exactly. I mean, it does as far as everything you do with your dog will be about engagement, but I wouldn't try to fit class down time into the framework of the stages of engagement.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> If you have to look at her then do that. I guess I don't see the issue right now since you're not doing an engagement session. You are looking at her, and that's asking her to look back at you just by your body language and that's fine. I wouldn't ignore my dog in class ever unless they were crated and out of the way.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to get at is that your question is a good one, and there are a lot of things to think about during down time in class (crate, mat, down stay, etc) and how much you want to keep your dog on their toes vs letting them totally relax. But I don't think it has to do with this engagement stuff exactly. I mean, it does as far as everything you do with your dog will be about engagement, but I wouldn't try to fit class down time into the framework of the stages of engagement.


That's exactly where I'm having trouble though, your last sentence. I'm trying to -avoid- her engaging me. She's doing stage 2 right now, not stage 3 yet at all, so she's been heavily reinforced for offering eye contact and coming into me. So if she's comfortable with the environment and I stand still, she will do exactly that - stare at me expectantly and/or move towards me - whether I'm looking at her or not. 

On the one hand, I don't want to ignore her offering that, but on the other hand, I don't want to be training for a full hour and we both need downtime. The long down stay is also training and she's offering focus the whole time, waiting for the next cookie.

I don't have a crate portable enough to fit a GSD, but I like your idea of bringing my platform to the classes. When we did obedience the platform was her downtime...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> That's exactly where I'm having trouble though, your last sentence. I'm trying to -avoid- her engaging me. She's doing stage 2 right now, not stage 3 yet at all, so she's been heavily reinforced for offering eye contact and coming into me. So if she's comfortable with the environment and I stand still, she will do exactly that - stare at me expectantly and/or move towards me - whether I'm looking at her or not.
> 
> On the one hand, I don't want to ignore her offering that, but on the other hand, I don't want to be training for a full hour and we both need downtime. The long down stay is also training and she's offering focus the whole time, waiting for the next cookie.
> 
> I don't have a crate portable enough to fit a GSD, but I like your idea of bringing my platform to the classes. When we did obedience the platform was her downtime...


If you are staring at her and she offers engagement, I would just tell her she's a good girl and to go sniff, or take a break, or put her in a down stay. You need a way to end engagement sessions, but she probably needs you to manage her during downtime right now instead of just ignoring her and letting her do her thing. It depends on the dog. But if you ignore and not make eye contact and she can be well behaved, I would do that so she knows that she is on her own time.

I personally used a placed down stay for classes. Instead of asking my dog to down, and then rewarding in increments, I use the leash to guide him down and I continue to do it each time he gets up (or just step on the leash so he he is more comfortable staying down). He does have a decent amount of down/stay training which I'm sure helps, but I try hard to make the exercise look very different from an official down/stay that he would do in the obedience ring. It's more of a casual "stay on this place now" behavior. Using a mat for this also helps tremendously. When he's down, I more or less ignore him, other than a quick check in to smile and tell him he's doing a good job, and maybe giving a treat, but do not stand there and stare and give cookies and expect him to watch me. I want the opposite of that.

ETA: For 2.5 years I did spend every minute of an hour long training session working with Watson. Redirecting, asking for tricks, paying him for paying attention to me, etc. Yes, it's tiring, but some dogs need that and can't be left to their own devices. Honestly it probably would've been better if I could have crated him, but that wasn't an option for the way most of my classes were set up, and he was not in the right state of mind to be able to do a down/stay or be on a mat calmly. It's something we've worked on over a long period of time. So yes, it's tiring, but sometimes it's what you have to do for that dog.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

When I go to classes, I crate my dogs when they aren't working. They need to be able to relax and truly turn off, thus, the crate. I might leave the front uncovered so they can watch the class or I might cover them, just depends. But if my dogs are out and on leash, it's hard to tell them that there isn't any point in paying some level of attention to me.

If I am worried about acclimation, I put my dogs on a down stay on a mat and I sit down. I don't work my dogs from a chair, so the sitting is very clear. Every time my dogs go to class, I bring a crate and a chair and a mat.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> When I go to classes, I crate my dogs when they aren't working. They need to be able to relax and truly turn off, thus, the crate. I might leave the front uncovered so they can watch the class or I might cover them, just depends. But if my dogs are out and on leash, it's hard to tell them that there isn't any point in paying some level of attention to me.
> 
> If I am worried about acclimation, I put my dogs on a down stay on a mat and I sit down. I don't work my dogs from a chair, so the sitting is very clear. Every time my dogs go to class, I bring a crate and a chair and a mat.


I wish crating was more popular here. I have never taken a class at any facility where crating was really an option or ever done by anyone. Watson would have been easier to deal with if I had crated from the beginning.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I wish crating was more popular here. I have never taken a class at any facility where crating was really an option or ever done by anyone. Watson would have been easier to deal with if I had crated from the beginning.


Be the trend setter! At one place I train, I am the only person who brings a crate. I'm totally cool with that.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> When I go to classes, I crate my dogs when they aren't working. They need to be able to relax and truly turn off, thus, the crate. I might leave the front uncovered so they can watch the class or I might cover them, just depends. But if my dogs are out and on leash, it's hard to tell them that there isn't any point in paying some level of attention to me.
> 
> If I am worried about acclimation, I put my dogs on a down stay on a mat and I sit down. I don't work my dogs from a chair, so the sitting is very clear. Every time my dogs go to class, I bring a crate and a chair and a mat.


Honestly I think the mat (we have a platform) would really help in my case. She's perfectly capable of staying calm on a platform, and I think we'll practice that at home first as a refresher. 

We don't have an option to crate either, unless I bring a crate with me. Which literally wouldn't fit in my car. 



> When he's down, I more or less ignore him, other than a quick check in to smile and tell him he's doing a good job, and maybe giving a treat, but do not stand there and stare and give cookies and expect him to watch me.


Yep, this is exactly what I did with the platform. Time to dig it out again.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Be the trend setter! At one place I train, I am the only person who brings a crate. I'm totally cool with that.


If I ever do agility with Watson again I will crate, always. The problem is that nobody else crates so all of the dogs are standing there when it's his turn. In most of our obedience classes lately there is little down time (lots of group activities) so the down/stay works fine, but it took me years to get there and I should have used a crate in earlier class. I may bring a crate when we start Rally next month since there will be a lot of down time.

The times I have crated him, like at seminars, he was such a better and more focused worker.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I use a mat at regular classes and seriously when you put time into mat training it's like it has a gravitational field, lol. It's really helped in new places where I wanted her to know where she was supposed to go by default without me having to cue something. IE: if we're not actively doing something, I should go chill out on my mat. 

Now all I have to do it put it out (or another mat-like thing, she has generalized this well to towels or other blankets, etc) and she's on it. When I'm rolling it up at the end of class she'll still be standing on it till the very end like "Noo don't steal my matttt!" unless I cue her to do something else.

If I'm going to be at a place longer (for several hours) then I bring a crate for her to relax in, but that's kind of a hassle for us so I don't do it for just regular classes.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I need to use mats more often. Both of my dogs have trained mat behaviors, but I don't use them outside of the house nearly as often as I should. I agree that bringing a crate is a PITA most of the time


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

ireth0 said:


> I use a mat at regular classes and seriously when you put time into mat training it's like it has a gravitational field, lol. It's really helped in new places where I wanted her to know where she was supposed to go by default without me having to cue something. IE: if we're not actively doing something, I should go chill out on my mat.
> 
> Now all I have to do it put it out (or another mat-like thing, she has generalized this well to towels or other blankets, etc) and she's on it. When I'm rolling it up at the end of class she'll still be standing on it till the very end like "Noo don't steal my matttt!" unless I cue her to do something else.
> 
> If I'm going to be at a place longer (for several hours) then I bring a crate for her to relax in, but that's kind of a hassle for us so I don't do it for just regular classes.


The dogs in our classes are like that with their crates. As soon as their exercises are over, they're at their crate wanting in.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I just want to clarify that when I say I bring a crate, I am bringing a very light-weight collapsible crate that weighs like 3 pounds. I'm not lugging my giant metal crates to class. I put a memory foam bathmat in it and leave it in there when I fold it up. I also have the lightweight crate cover in there too. So with one hand, I have the crate, the mat, and the cover, all for under 8 pounds. And I have a tall dog (24").

If I bring 3 dogs to class, I bring 3 crates. That gets to be a giant pain in the butt.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What brand of crate? I'm a bit hesitant to try a soft crate with Hank. Luckily in classes our facility is full of crates you can borrow. But at trials I hate lugging around his huge crate.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> What brand of crate? I'm a bit hesitant to try a soft crate with Hank. Luckily in classes our facility is full of crates you can borrow. But at trials I hate lugging around his huge crate.


I am a giant fan of noz2noz soft crates, but all of my dogs are super crate-trained. When I get a new dog/pup, I do haul around a metal crate until I know that the dog is dependable, then I switch. I never take a chance until a dog is trustworthy.

With a new dog, I even make sure I have a spotter at my first couple of shows. If I show another dog or take a bathroom break, I have a spotter at my crate. 

I have 3 Noz2Noz crates. I have tried others, but I love these. They are very lightweight. They will be a total failure if your dog will challenge the crate.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hank usually doesn't challenge crates at all but I know he has a penchant for tearing fabric things in general. Noz 2 Noz is the crate Summer busted a couple years ago. Hank is actually better in the crate but also a lot stronger. I may try one though for times I can supervise closely.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Hank usually doesn't challenge crates at all but I know he has a penchant for tearing fabric things in general. Noz 2 Noz is the crate Summer busted a couple years ago. Hank is actually better in the crate but also a lot stronger. I may try one though for times I can supervise closely.


On Amazon, they are super cheap right now. Price fell by about 25%, not sure why. So I ordered an extra. Might want to peek!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> On Amazon, they are super cheap right now. Price fell by about 25%, not sure why. So I ordered an extra. Might want to peek!


$125 doesn't really count as cheap for me... That's almost as much as i paid for my metal crate!
Might be cause I'm in canada. Darn.

ETA: DAMN it's $50 in the US!!! Wow. That is cheap. -.-


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alla said:


> $125 doesn't really count as cheap for me... That's almost as much as i paid for my metal crate!
> Might be cause I'm in canada. Darn.
> 
> ETA: DAMN it's $50 in the US!!! Wow. That is cheap. -.-


Yea, Canada amazon is never as good as the US amazon. it sucks.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I have a soft crate but even that seems kind of big and bulky. Not sure how much it weighs, but it's kind of a pain to haul around and set up if I know he will only be in it for 5min the entire class. I don't trust Watson unsupervised in one, but he's been fine so far. I always leave him with a spotter just in case. It's so much better than the wire crate for many things.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree that it's a pain. When I go and train with all 3 dogs, it takes about 20 extra minutes for me to set-up and take down crates. I make it even worse by adding an extra pad and blanket in each crate. A total pain. 

But I feel like it's really important for my dogs to feel safe, relaxed, and comfortable. Two of my dogs are super soft and sensitive. They truly require the extra TLC to perform at their best. They just need it. And my more durable dog is getting older. I feel like I owe him the extra comfort too. 

Setting up at shows is even worse. People laugh at me. I don't care. My three dogs have almost no hair and no body fat. AND they are terriers and hounds. If they aren't happy, they aren't going to work. It's really that simple!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Gotta say that the platform trick worked nicely.  After she was done her session she'd beeline directly for the platform and stay on it, getting treats periodically. 

Back on the subject of Fenzi though - I've noticed that the Play class is kind of the only one that doesn't have a time/date of registration yet - all that it says on the reg tab is that it's only offered in lecture-only format... I'm hoping that'll change as we get closer to September 22nd? Has anyone else seen precedents for this kind of thing?

I have to say I have this irrational fear that it won't change and it'll just be offered in lecture-only mode through october... I.e. no gold spots, forums or anything. ;_;


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Gotta say that the platform trick worked nicely.  After she was done her session she'd beeline directly for the platform and stay on it, getting treats periodically.
> 
> Back on the subject of Fenzi though - I've noticed that the Play class is kind of the only one that doesn't have a time/date of registration yet - all that it says on the reg tab is that it's only offered in lecture-only format... I'm hoping that'll change as we get closer to September 22nd? Has anyone else seen precedents for this kind of thing?
> 
> I have to say I have this irrational fear that it won't change and it'll just be offered in lecture-only mode through october... I.e. no gold spots, forums or anything. ;_;


Yeah, the Play class is just in an odd spot because the lectures are available for people taking Engagement, but it's also being offered next term. Denise will update it when the date gets closer. It will definitely be offered in its standard form if it's on the schedule for October 1st.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, the Play class is just in an odd spot because the lectures are available for people taking Engagement, but it's also being offered next term. Denise will update it when the date gets closer. It will definitely be offered in its standard form if it's on the schedule for October 1st.


Thank you! That makes me feel better. 

Does anyone know anything about the course NW150 - Scent Theory and Dynamics (http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/2006)? I'm considering taking it at Gold next term, along with the Play at Gold... Am I signing myself up for too much work? How is the course in general?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Thank you! That makes me feel better.
> 
> Does anyone know anything about the course NW150 - Scent Theory and Dynamics (http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/2006)? I'm considering taking it at Gold next term, along with the Play at Gold... Am I signing myself up for too much work? How is the course in general?



I haven't taken it, but I would really recommend against two Gold classes at once. I think Play will be very involved, and it's easy to fall behind on even one Gold class.

Also, you've only recently started scent work with Porsche, so I wonder if some of the homework for Gold students would be too advanced for the stage you are at. It recommends having a dog working in either tracking or nosework, and you are still in the training stage of tracking. 

Just my thoughts. It does look like a very interesting class. Maybe you can take it at Silver?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> Thank you! That makes me feel better.
> 
> Does anyone know anything about the course NW150 - Scent Theory and Dynamics (http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/2006)? I'm considering taking it at Gold next term, along with the Play at Gold... Am I signing myself up for too much work? How is the course in general?


Are you interested in tracking or nosework?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> Are you interested in tracking or nosework?


Yes, I'm training Porsche in Tracking. 



> I haven't taken it, but I would really recommend against two Gold classes at once. I think Play will be very involved, and it's easy to fall behind on even one Gold class.
> 
> Also, you've only recently started scent work with Porsche, so I wonder if some of the homework for Gold students would be too advanced for the stage you are at. It recommends having a dog working in either tracking or nosework, and you are still in the training stage of tracking.
> 
> Just my thoughts. It does look like a very interesting class. Maybe you can take it at Silver?


I agree that Play will be very involved, however it doesn't look like the Scent class would be - it's just a lot of information and 1 track per week for actual homework. I just know if I don't have a working spot I will guaranteed not do the work, which defeats the purpose of taking the class... And it's not offered for another year after that!

Also didn't it say that your dog doesn't have to be very advanced in scent work in order to participate?

Edit: good call though. I just sent an email to the instructor asking if we'd be able to handle the homework at our current level of training.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I agree that Play will be very involved, however it doesn't look like the Scent class would be - it's just a lot of information and 1 track per week for actual homework. I just know if I don't have a working spot I will guaranteed not do the work, which defeats the purpose of taking the class... And it's not offered for another year after that!
> 
> Also didn't it say that your dog doesn't have to be very advanced in scent work in order to participate?
> 
> Edit: good call though. I just sent an email to the instructor asking if we'd be able to handle the homework at our current level of training.


That's what I was going to suggest. To me, "not advanced" doesn't mean raw beginner. It means a dog who understands their job and is at a working level (either Nosework 1 or TD level) even if it's not a more advanced level.

I still think that two Gold classes will be overwhelming.

ETA: Porsche may be beyond raw beginning level by October, but it's hard to say. Just reading through the class description, it might be hard to figure out why your dog is doing what they're doing based on scent theory when the dog is still trying to figure things out in the first place, or is distracted by other scents because they don't have enough drive for the game yet.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> ETA: Porsche may be beyond raw beginning level by October, but it's hard to say. Just reading through the class description, it might be hard to figure out why your dog is doing what they're doing based on scent theory when the dog is still trying to figure things out in the first place, or is distracted by other scents because they don't have enough drive for the game yet.


I think maybe it might be worth taking a video of us tracking around september 15th, and ask if we're at a sufficient level? Obviously we are very beginner, but we do practice nearly every day...


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> I think maybe it might be worth taking a video of us tracking around september 15th, and ask if we're at a sufficient level? Obviously we are very beginner, but we do practice nearly every day...


You are going to be fine! This is going to be an intro class that is more about teaching the handler how odor works. Should be a bunch of fun! Won't be a giant time drain either.

Check out this video! You can skip the first minute and not miss anything. Check out what the odor/air was doing on this hide! I think this is what that upcoming class is going to be about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-QT2bAsuow


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> You are going to be fine! This is going to be an intro class that is more about teaching the handler how odor works. Should be a bunch of fun! Won't be a giant time drain either.
> 
> Check out this video! You can skip the first minute and not miss anything. Check out what the odor/air was doing on this hide! I think this is what that upcoming class is going to be about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-QT2bAsuow


Lol are you sure you posted the right video? That one is indoors and I have no idea what the air is doing in there. 

It doesn't sound like a giant time drain to me either - not at 1 track per week.  Training junkie are you just guessing about the content of the course or do you have insider knowledge of some sort?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am basing it off of a class I took with her and off of some of the content of a couple of the 300 series nosework classes. 

That was the right video. See what the air was doing at the end? We were trying to figure out why 2 decent dogs missed the hide. When we put the wizard stick to the hide, it was easy to understand. All of the odor was rising. There was nothing dropping for the dogs to find. Interesting stuff.

Since the class is for both nosework and tracking, I would guess some if it is going to be indoors!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

How is she as an instructor? TBH what you described - mostly theory for the handler - is exactly what I'm looking for.  But I like the idea that it's not just a textbook (hence why I don't want to do bronze - I can do a google search on scent theory well enough on my own) but rather someone experienced can tell you if your interpretations are wrong, etc. 

I'd be doing this instead of my weekly Agility in person class, if I end up doing it. 

Ohhh i see, I missed the very end there. That is cool, I wonder why the air was rising at that location? Was it hot outside and the air by the window was heating up and therefore rising, and the hide was right by the window?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I took a basic tracking class with her and liked it. It was very laid back, but that's probably because there were so few gold people so the whole thing moved along fairly slowly.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> How is she as an instructor? TBH what you described - mostly theory for the handler - is exactly what I'm looking for.  But I like the idea that it's not just a textbook (hence why I don't want to do bronze - I can do a google search on scent theory well enough on my own) but rather someone experienced can tell you if your interpretations are wrong, etc.
> 
> I'd be doing this instead of my weekly Agility in person class, if I end up doing it.
> 
> Ohhh i see, I missed the very end there. That is cool, I wonder why the air was rising at that location? Was it hot outside and the air by the window was heating up and therefore rising, and the hide was right by the window?


I like her as an instructor. And it wasn't all that hot out. No idea why the air was doing that, but it was so interesting to see why that "simple" elevated hide was giving the dogs such fits!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I took a basic tracking class with her and liked it. It was very laid back, but that's probably because there were so few gold people so the whole thing moved along fairly slowly.


Are all FDSA courses so community-oriented as Engagement is? I find there to be a really strong sense of community to the class which adds a lot of value to me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Are all FDSA courses so community-oriented as Engagement is? I find there to be a really strong sense of community to the class which adds a lot of value to me.


No, definitely not. I think those that are just skills based have a lot less FB involvement. Like in Performance Fundamentals, the FB group was very quiet. Not a lot of people need help teaching simple things like tuck sits or targeting. For big complicated classes like Engagement, there is a lot more involvement. Even the agility handling basics class has had a very quiet FB page, because most people don't have issues teaching the skills on their own.

Not sure about the scent work classes in general, but the intro to tracking class was quiet in terms of gold involvement and FB involvement.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

How many golds were there at your tracking class? Did you take it at gold or one of the others?

By quiet you mean people didn't really do the work, or just less people in general?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> How many golds were there at your tracking class? Did you take it at gold or one of the others?
> 
> By quiet you mean people didn't really do the work, or just less people in general?


I think there were maybe 5? And I think one woman did it with two dogs? Hard to remember, but it was definitely less than 10 and only about 5 posted regularly. I took it at bronze.

I think it was a combination. People were possibly more focused on their other classes, and there just weren't many people taking the class in general. Though I don't think FB involvement has much to do with the number of people in the class. I think the Agility Handling Basics class is pretty popular but there aren't a ton of posts on the FB page. I think people are quiet because they just don't need the support to figure out the material and whether they are doing it correctly.

ETA: I think there are also a handful of people who are very active in the FB groups. If you get a bunch of them in a class it's going to be pretty active. Then there are a whole lot of people who just aren't into sharing on FB for whatever reason and then things are quiet.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So I just heard back from the NW150 trainer... Looks like it'll be too advanced for is. Looks like Play only it is!

Here's the relevant bit from her email:
"However if the dog is new to tracking we don’t want to present them with tricky scent problems, we want things very straightforward so that we shape correct tracking behavior. Then when they are more experienced, and the scent becomes more tricky, when they leave the track we can be certain that it is due to scent conditions, rather than inexperience. "


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Good to know! Take it at bronze and learn anyway!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

BUMP.

Anyone done the 'get focused' class?

Hank and I got a spot in play at gold. I know he already plays but I decided to try it out and just see if we got in then decide based on that. We got in so I'm gonna try it!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> BUMP.
> 
> Anyone done the 'get focused' class?


I did. I was not thrilled with it. My summary of the class is:
Wait for dog to look at you
Click and treat
Ask for behavior
Click and treat
Then when they can do that, ask for behavior before you click and treat. Then ask for multiple behaviors. 

I thought it was way too basic. I kind of figured that stuff out on my own early on in dog training. A few of the lectures were decent and had some stuff to think about, but overall I was disappointed in the class. Engagement was similar in some ways (wait for dog to offer focus, reward that) but much better overall.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It does sound like engagement in a lot of ways. Engagement actually did help me quite a bit just with the idea of an acclimation period. I didn't quite get to keep up with it as much as I wanted but I still have the lectures to look back on.

I'll probably stick with just play since we're doing gold. I feel like I really have to keep up on this one since so many people wanted in and didn't get in!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> It does sound like engagement in a lot of ways. Engagement actually did help me quite a bit just with the idea of an acclimation period. I didn't quite get to keep up with it as much as I wanted but I still have the lectures to look back on.


Denise even posted on FB the other day, and I agree, that Engagement is much more "real world". Focus is kind of what you would do with a brand new dog or puppy who had no training (I certainly do the basic steps with Hazel while we're waiting in classes and stuff), but if you've got any focus at all I don't think it will be valuable. Basically if the environment is too tough, in Focus they just tell you to pack up and leave and go somewhere easier. In Engagement Denise shows you how to wait the dog out and work through it which I thought was much more valuable to me. 



> I'll probably stick with just play since we're doing gold. I feel like I really have to keep up on this one since so many people wanted in and didn't get in!


Yeah, no pressure! Haha.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> I'll probably stick with just play since we're doing gold. I feel like I really have to keep up on this one since so many people wanted in and didn't get in!


No pressure at all. op2: 

Elrohwen, based on your summary I'm glad I didn't end up doing focus at gold. That does seem a bit basic. Although, you know, before starting Engagement I thought it would be a piece of cake too. Shows how much I know...

I'm pretty excited for both my courses (ended up in Handle This at Gold and Play at Silver), although I did -not- expect play to be this quiet so far. Hardly anyone's posted intros in the forums yet!! And the FB group is basically silent too, except for your (Laurelin's) post.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Elrohwen, based on your summary I'm glad I didn't end up doing focus at gold. That does seem a bit basic. Although, you know, before starting Engagement I thought it would be a piece of cake too. Shows how much I know...


I think Engagement is way way harder. Focus is like, can your dog look at your and do a couple behaviors in a reasonably distracting place? Build up from just looking at you, to doing a behavior or more than one behavior. But it doesn't really address how to get your dog truly engaged. Watson can look at me and do what I want but it doesn't mean he's really engaged. Plus I feel like Focus is a bit more lure/bribing - the dog knows you have treats. I liked that Engagement teaches them to Engagement even if they're not sure you have anything.




> I'm pretty excited for both my courses (ended up in Handle This at Gold and Play at Silver), although I did -not- expect play to be this quiet so far. Hardly anyone's posted intros in the forums yet!! And the FB group is basically silent too, except for your (Laurelin's) post.


Some people wait until the very last minute. I was surprised that the instructor already commented on my intro post in the Confo class because usually they wait until the day before.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Y'all should post on the play Facebook group!

It is way quiet compared to my last classes so far!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> Y'all should post on the play Facebook group!
> 
> It is way quiet compared to my last classes so far!


I think I'll do a baseline video at some point tonight.  You're right - it's way too quiet!

Sigh, I think i'm just too impatient. Now that we've signed up I want to start, like, right away. Not next week. lol.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Good luck everyone taking classes this round!

Maybe I`ll join you some year.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

ok so focus is more basic than engagement.

What do people recommend for a puppy who engages well but gets too excited at the thought of being with you to want to do what you ask? and a dog who is like eeyore...slow,faithful and set on point?

I'm lost


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Flaming said:


> ok so focus is more basic than engagement.
> 
> What do people recommend for a puppy who engages well but gets too excited at the thought of being with you to want to do what you ask? and a dog who is like eeyore...slow,faithful and set on point?
> 
> I'm lost


 Some kind of impulse control class for the first, and Play for the second. 
For the first, can you provide more details? To me, if a dog is engaged they should be in a frame of mind to listen. If they are frantic that might be something else


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Some kind of impulse control class for the first, and Play for the second.
> For the first, can you provide more details? To me, if a dog is engaged they should be in a frame of mind to listen. If they are frantic that might be something else


Manna's good at play too though, she's just a good solid all around dog. I just do the classes to try new things and make myself spend more time with her as I always seems to be trying to drive things into Vitae over the last year

Vitae will stare a hole into your soul while jumping and growling and running in circles and vibrating. (I still think she has some sort of mental disorder she's almost a year old and nothing sticks in her head) 
Her head is on a swivel, her body looks distracted but her eyes are always on you. It's exhausting


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Flaming said:


> Manna's good at play too though, she's just a good solid all around dog. I just do the classes to try new things and make myself spend more time with her as I always seems to be trying to drive things into Vitae over the last year
> 
> Vitae will stare a hole into your soul while jumping and growling and running in circles and vibrating. (I still think she has some sort of mental disorder she's almost a year old and nothing sticks in her head)
> Her head is on a swivel, her body looks distracted but her eyes are always on you. It's exhausting


There used to be a Fenzi class for impulse control but I'm not sure if it's still offered. I think that would be great for Vitae. What about Shaping? Could you do it at Gold? Sounds like she doesn't have impulse control or understand that her choices influence things. 

Not sure about Manna. If she plays and engages then I guess I'm not sure what you want to fix? Maybe just take a skill class like PH or Skillbuilding?


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> There used to be a Fenzi class for impulse control but I'm not sure if it's still offered. I think that would be great for Vitae. What about Shaping? Could you do it at Gold? Sounds like she doesn't have impulse control or understand that her choices influence things.
> 
> Not sure about Manna. If she plays and engages then I guess I'm not sure what you want to fix? Maybe just take a skill class like PH or Skillbuilding?


not really for fixing Manna, just spending more quality time with her, she's been on the back burner a lot lately.

Impulse is probably the ONLY thing Vitae is good at...I swear that dog can't even sit for 0.1 second but you tell her to leave it and...well wow that thing doesn't get touched. There are things on "auto leave it" now. But sit/stay? fetch/down? HAH yeah right 

Her motivation seems to change every 5 seconds...what is high value now might not be high value 5 seconds from now. I'm not sure how to explain it. 
Maybe she's too high energy/smart for her own good?

I think if I was higher energy she would work with me more, but I physically can't drum up that much energy. 

I need something where I can be lazy but makes her work hard and fast so she'll want to work.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Flaming said:


> not really for fixing Manna, just spending more quality time with her, she's been on the back burner a lot lately.
> 
> Impulse is probably the ONLY thing Vitae is good at...I swear that dog can't even sit for 0.1 second but you tell her to leave it and...well wow that thing doesn't get touched. There are things on "auto leave it" now. But sit/stay? fetch/down? HAH yeah right
> 
> ...


Can you use impulse control to make her hold a sit or a down? Leave it is good but to me impulse control involves doing something to get what they want. If she just doesn't want anything in the first place it sounds like low drive. I dunno really hard to say what's going on without seeing it. 

For Manna, what about nose work? I think any of the skill classes would be great. Just find something you're interested in working on.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Can you use impulse control to make her hold a sit or a down? Leave it is good but to me impulse control involves doing something to get what they want. If she just doesn't want anything in the first place it sounds like low drive. I dunno really hard to say what's going on without seeing it.
> 
> For Manna, what about nose work? I think any of the skill classes would be great. Just find something you're interested in working on.


Yeah Vitae is what I would consider high energy with low drive...frustrating at her best and impossible at her worse. 

Nose work might be good for Manna...she likes stuffing her nose in random places


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Just an FYI for FDSA students:

A few classes are being deleted from our libraries. If any of you have taken any Jamie Robinson classes, they are going to disappear on October 11th. Save them if you want them, but they will no longer exist in your library.


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