# Xeph and other GSD peeps



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

A GSD just won pastoral group at crufts. Dog is very handsome,called Elmo (American owner) thought maybe some of you guys knew him?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

So I guess the dog passed the health test.

I just looked while the dog may have an American owner, it is not registered as being from the US.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Is there a link to the dog? I tried to watch Crufts but apparently I had to pay...

Nevermind, was linked to the video on another forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998l3giMk7Q

Looks to be German show lines (although I'm not sure if that's what you are referring to, Chaos).

ETA (again)

The dog, for those interested

VA CH Elmo vom Hühnegrab SchH3 kkl1
Vice British Sieger
http://www.veneze.com/elmo.htm


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Nope, don't know him. Don't care for his topline at all, but I like his bone, moderation, and head.

Not a bad front. Feet could be tighter.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

The OP said the dog had an american owner, but looking at the results the dog did not have anything indicating the dog was from the US. So the chance of a person from the US, knowing the dog are slim, if the dog is not from the US or has been shown in the US, or they have been to shows in the country the dog is really from which seems to be somewhere in the UK.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Feet could maybe be tighter, but I don't think they're all that bad compared to some I've seen.

The second picture from the top on the left hand side has been edited, and pretty poorly at that.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> So the chance of a person from the US, knowing the dog are slim


You'd be surprised.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Never said it was impossible, I am sure I can be surprised. Well if they know that kennel I am sure they would know that dog. I should have added that to the list. 

And I agree I really don't like his topline, but then again I wasn't much impressed with the majority of the GSD entries while I was in England. The double handling was very hilarious to watch though.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The entries in England really confuse me. At some shows there are English bred dogs that are really low stationed versions of the American GSD, but in other shows they show the "International" (European) type (West German Showlines).

It's just...it's so confusing.

Elmo's topline is pretty typical of WGSLs


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

The majority of what I saw was I guess WGSLs.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Most likely. But I don't understand their show system at all (the British system).


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

It confused me at first, but as the weeks went by I got used to it. I spent a month showing there in the summer of 2009, and then was invited back to Crufts last year. It was a blast.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

German show line and not bad looking. Nice dog, good pasterns, nice shoulder, good powerful looking rear and looks balanced. His feet are not bad IMO Gsds are not supposed to have high tight knuckled feet. His pasterns look sloped just enough to have shock absorption and still look sturdy. I can't stand a dog with weak pasterns. 

I like him very much  kudos and grats to his owners.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> The second picture from the top on the left hand side has been edited, and pretty poorly at that.


You know, I've noticed this in quite a few Crested photos recently, from breeder websites and the like. I wonder how widespread 'photo faking' is?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Pai said:


> You know, I've noticed this in quite a few Crested photos recently, from breeder websites and the like. I wonder how widespread 'photo faking' is?


I'd bet it's rampant, depending on your definition of photo faking. I know there's at least one club whose COE forbids editing show pictures (any pictures?), I think it's Cardigans.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Some people delete a leash or something and I can understand that, however anything on the dog if it is a photo to represent your dog and breed should be 100 percent unaltered IMO.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I'd bet it's rampant, depending on your definition of photo faking. I know there's at least one club whose COE forbids editing show pictures (any pictures?), I think it's Cardigans.


It's mostly 'topline adjustments'. It's just sad that they're usually very obvious, so I don't know who they think they're fooling.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you referring to the difference in top line in the top photos versus the bottom one? In the top ones he is very young as his pasterns have not relaxed and he is not mature and he is also in a better stack versus the bottom photo.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yvonne said:


> German show line and not bad looking. Nice dog, good pasterns, nice shoulder, good powerful looking rear and looks balanced. His feet are not bad IMO Gsds are not supposed to have high tight knuckled feet. His pasterns look sloped just enough to have shock absorption and still look sturdy. I can't stand a dog with weak pasterns.
> 
> I like him very much  kudos and grats to his owners.


Agree, ditto with congratulations and that furball could park his butt in my home any day.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

@Pai, I'd be interested in seeing some examples, if you didn't mind. PM is fine.

@Yvonne - The edited picture in the GSD's montage is the second from the top on the left side. The one where the grass is greener, the tan is redder, and the black is blacker. The flat black hides edits better, but you can see the grass is fuzzier in a band that follows his (new) topline. Something has been done to his front in that picture (from point of chest to eblow, roughly) but I can't figure out what because it looks awful.

EDIT: Actually, on closer look, the top picture has been edited too. Floow his top line down, at about 1/3 of the way you can see a little tan circle in the grass, look slightly up and to the right of that and you can see the same dot. It's been clone tool'd.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

The Urma photo? You are saying Urma has altered the dog? Urma photos are taken at only top shows like the Sieger. The grass at the sieger shows are green green and the dogs are in tip top looks for them. His front legs are not edited in that photo. He is young and they are straight and it is before his pasterns relaxed which normally happens at about 12 months old.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

The Urma picture on the the left and the one above it, yes.

When whoever put it into that photomontage on the website, they edited the photo. The color is altered, it has nothing to do with how green the grass was. Someone took the computerized image of the photograph and raised the saturation. I could do the same thing to the pictures in your signature and make the grass look greener. The edited his topline as well; if that is what GSD legs look like at some ages so be it. For the record, I am not talking about pasterns I am talking about how the leg joins the ribcage. It looks really weird and not at all like any of the other pictures.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

may be a terrible quality scan but I cannot agree that Urma changed and altered the dog in the photo. Perhaps you ask this on a gsd forum where showers use Urma and give them the examples on a place like the gsd pedigree database. I do not think the dog was altered and Urma did so.


This is their website and their business reputation is being smudged here IMO http://www.fotourma.com/engbooks.html


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. Whoever took the picture has nothing to do with it. Editing was done later. Look at the Urma picture right next to it, those pictures don't look different to you? In the right hand picture you can see the shine on his black saddle. On the left picture, you can't. That doesn't happen on sunny days and with dogs in "tip top" condition. Even on the bottom picture that was taken indoor you can see a reflection on the saddle. You'd be hard pressed to get a picture like the left Urma one to come out of a camera like that. You wouldn't WANT to, solid black on a dog like that looks flat and fake.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

They are two different photos taken at a difference in his age. I can tell by the maturity level in his structure that they are about 2 and half to three months apart.


Have you ever owned a coated breed? Their color and texture really depends on the shed level and new hairs at the time. Also these photos were of a young dog who by the looks of it had just got his color and adult coat in the one on the left and the one on the right is older.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

A) Doesn't matter, they're taken under similar conditions: outside during the daytime. If your photographer is turning out pictures like the one on the left, FIRE HIM, he's terrible at his job.

B) You're saying the dog grew a curve in his spine in three months?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The second photo where he's super red has been edited. I don't doubt that. However, Raegan is NOT saying that Urma edited the photo. She's saying that once the picture was purchased, somebody either tried to Photoshop it themselves, or asked somebody to do it (and they did a poor job).


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I really suggest if you do not believe me take your questions about this to pedigree database for the german shepherd and ask them 


If you like I can pm you the addy.


Have you looked at the Urma site? to say what you are saying would say that Urma did this coloring and editing to all the dogs there. Go to the Urma site and also look up gsd pedigrees with photos and you will see that yes they can have that much color naturally.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Are you REALLY trying to argue that picture hasnt been edited? Really?
You really dont see how the grass out in front of him is COMPLETELY different than both the grass under and behind him.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I really suggest if you do not believe me take your questions about this to pedigree database for the german shepherd and ask them


Yes, because THEY are the MOST objective people in the universe!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

For someone who is so concerned about photoediting, I have no idea how you aren't seeing that, at the very least, the contrast and saturation have been changed in that picture. Straight out of the camera pictures do NOT look like that. 


I would gladly take this to PDB if I didn't have to register to post or had any idea how posting on there worked at all. I've never been able to figure out that website.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

So you will not ask them because you would have to register at a dog forum? Xeph can ask she is a member? 

Here is the link, I do not find it hard to navigate. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.htm


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Because I've read some of the messages there, it's a cesspool. It's not a place I would ever frequent after this incident. And really, one edited picture of a dog I really do not give a fig about is not worth the hassle of a word verification.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

how about this 
we put it up on a poll on this forum


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> to say what you are saying would say that Urma did this coloring and editing to all the dogs there.


But that is NOT what she's saying. She's saying SOMEBODY edited it. She did not say anybody specific.

Once a person puchases the rights to a picture and everything, they can do whatever they want to it. Nobody's said WHO may have edited it, just that it was.



> how about this
> we put it up on a poll on this forum


I seriously lol'd!



> And really, one edited picture of a dog I really do not give a fig about is not worth the hassle of a word verification.


I love those stupid Captchas!


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

we wont say anything in that post, just let people decide


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

But it would prove the quality and a claim of someone passing off their dog not being what it is? The dog is being questioned? I am sure there are people on there that have personally admired this dog and run their hands over him that can clear this up quickly? You are the one questioning fraud on this dogs photos?


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> You aren't understanding what I'm saying. *Whoever took the picture has nothing to do with it. Editing was done later.* Look at the Urma picture right next to it, those pictures don't look different to you? In the right hand picture you can see the shine on his black saddle. On the left picture, you can't. That doesn't happen on sunny days and with dogs in "tip top" condition. Even on the bottom picture that was taken indoor you can see a reflection on the saddle. You'd be hard pressed to get a picture like the left Urma one to come out of a camera like that. You wouldn't WANT to, solid black on a dog like that looks flat and fake.





Xeph said:


> The second photo where he's super red has been edited. I don't doubt that. However, Raegan is NOT saying that Urma edited the photo. *She's saying that once the picture was purchased, somebody either tried to Photoshop it themselves, or asked somebody to do it *(and they did a poor job).





Yvonne said:


> Have you looked at the Urma site? to say what you are saying would say that Urma did this coloring and editing to all the dogs there. Go to the Urma site and also look up gsd pedigrees with photos and you will see that yes they can have that much color naturally.


Yvonne, I think you've misunderstood what Raegan's been trying to say...

Absolutely agree with everyone that he is quite a nice dog. I rather like his feet, they are not flat and from what I can see, tight. I saw the video of him at Crufts and his coat pigment is very rich, but I will agree that the photo in question HAS been edited (not say it's edited by Urma!!!).


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

no, I have not but thank you. I understand they are now saying who bought the photo of the dog ie the owner is the one who fudged the photos of his dog. Still does not sit well.


It is simple to ask on a gsd forum where people will have seen this dog in person and are knowledgeable gsd people.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

The topline IN THAT PHOTO ONLY has been edited ... PROBABLY NOT by urma ...PROBABLY by somebody who put together that montage 
The GRASS IN THAT PHOTO has been edited as well


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Photo...singular. I do not believe anybody said they're all edited.

And we are still not saying WHO did anything. For all we know a friend bought the photo as a gift and futzed with it.

The issue is not the dog. The dog himself is nice. The issue is the photo...if you're going to edit one, make sure it's not sucky.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Miranda again please refer to the posted link to both Urma and the gsd forum go look at the other photos. You are not understanding because you have not gone and looked at what I am saying.

The comment about the dogs top line and editing it to make it look better was not a slight on the dog?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I HAVE NOT SAID THE OWNER FUDGED THE PICTURE. Let me make that very clear, I am not besmirching anyone in particular. It's possible that the editing was done to better represent the dog, it's possible that for some reason when he is photographed things that are not so appear so. I think we can all agree that that is a thing that happens. All I am saying is:

The second picture from the top on the left hand side did not come out of the camera like that. At the very least, the contrast/saturation has been bumped up and the grass has been edited in places that would correspond with a topline adjustment, although we cannot know what has been covered over.

EDIT: Additionally, the top most left photo has been edited. You can see the same features of the grass repeated slightly lower and to the left.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

The purchaser of the photo would be the owner of the photo? Am I wrong ?


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

No it wasnt. I actually like the dog quite a bit, but that one singular picture, just that one, has been edited .... if not the topline (though I'm still convinced it is IN THAT PICTURE ALONE), than the saturation has definantly been played with because pictures dont come out of the camera (like reagan said) looking like that ... no matter what camera you use


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

It is simple to find out. Ask about the dog on the forum where people would have shown with him or have handled him. If you mean no disrespect to the dog then there is nothing wrong with asking.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yvonne, may I please ask what you mean by "does not sit well"? Do you mean that you don't believe the photo is edited, or that you don't like the fact that the photo is edited? If the latter is true I'm in complete agreement - there was actually a thread on the pedigreedatabase a few months back, where a photo of a gorgeous (V rated?) working x show line cross was shared in a thread, which prompted a discussion on the common practice of editing toplines, etc. Wish I had bookmarked it! 

I don't think anyone is trying to say that this dog is of poor quality because of the edited photo. I certainly don't like that it was edited, but I honestly don't think that the after effects of the post processing made the dog look much better. On the contrary, I actually liked the dog better in the video and in the unedited shots (at least, they appear to be unedited) with the exception of the topline. I think we all agree this is a very nice dog, and I'm not at all upset that he won his group (and a tiny bit of me was even rooting for the Buhund, I got to admit!  ).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Whoever bought the photo did not necessarily do the edit job. I could do a similar treatment to any picture I found on the internet. I could do the same thing to the dogs in your signature. It's unethical, but I would be physically capable of getting those pixels onto my screen, into photoshop, and then back on to the internet.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

more Urma photos since you refuse to go see them:

look at the too green grass that cant possibly be real
























































All of these dogs photos must have been altered and slipped back into Urmas hands.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm just interested how you don't seem to see the difference in the dogs topline in that picture as compared to ALL of the other pictures. He has a curve (not in a bad way that is just the general shape) in all the pictures except that one. That ONE picture has it completely flattened out. Also if you look, both the color of the grass as well as the general size of the grass out in front of him is completely different than under him and behind him. AND even IF, IF those things werent done, pictures just dont look like that when you upload them.... they just dont. I don't know how much experience with photography and cameras you have, but pictures do not come out of a camera looking like that. From what I understand with dog photography they will touch up stuff around the dog but other than they usually do not touch the dog (other than for collar or leash removal) but that photo was not (hopefully) edited by a professional (which is the reason I think the dog may have been touched up), because if it was it was very poorly done.

WE DONT THINK URMA EDITED THE PHOTO! We all think somebody else did it .... so what if the grass there is super green ... it doesnt change the fact that it is a poorly edited photo.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Because I can change the photo angle and stack position to put a curve into the flatest of my dogs topline especially when they are not age enough to be mature. You really must understand gsd structure and gsd stacking before you can understand what I am saying to you. The photo above the urma the dog is not being photoed square on and other such examples.

People pay a great sum of money for professional Urma photos for their dogs careers and the company is the best and they know how to get the right photo of your dog.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

You'll notice that in all of those pictures, the ones where the dogs are at a similar distance to the camera as the picture in question all have highlights showing up on their saddles and masks. On the picture in question, it's flat, matte black. The dogs off the Urma site look good, they look clean and shiny and healthy. Shine is GOOD. Flat black is bad, it's bad in any picture. It draws attention to itself and makes a picture look more fake. You want depth to your blacks.

Edit: Clearly, you just don't know enough about light and photography to understand what we're saying to you.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

First dog is random dog linked from the Urma page. Next two pictures are Elmo.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Could not have been a bad quality scanner? nope, has to be altered photos... go ask. I am done. If you believe with all your heart you are correct then go ask. I would not be downing the dog and have the ability to go ask and get the truth and just do it without asking because you may just be wrong.

I still say sucky scanner.... Oh and I work with graphics as a profession


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

thank you equinox


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

If it's a bad quality scanner, why do none of the other pictures have a similar look? Especially compared to one 2-3 months later?

The issue is not the dog. The dog is nice. I like the dog! But that picture is not straight out of the camera.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Could not have been a bad quality scanner? nope, has to be altered photos... go ask. I am done. If you believe with all your heart you are correct then go ask. I would not be downing the dog and have the ability to go ask and get the truth and just do it without asking because you may just be wrong.
> 
> I still say sucky scanner.... Oh and I work with graphics as a profession


Yvonne - it could have been!! I truly believe that! But even on the pedigreedatabase, where you've urged us all to go, there are discussions, multi-paged discussions where the tendency to edit a GSD's toplines are discussed. Not JUST show lines, but among working line dogs as well! Given this, honestly the first conclusion most people would draw would be an edited photo. It's the more likely and more common explanation. This is not a knock on the dog or on show lines, because I've seen it with German working line dogs and owners as well.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

go ask the forum lol I have gave the info you refuse to read and ponder what I wrote. You do not know the first year changes in a gsd. Not all of those photos were done same time so I doubt they were all uploaded same time or same way or same equipment. This dog is being unfairly discussed here and I am done.

yes Equinox there has been but NOT to Urma photos, you just are not conceiving the difference here.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Actually there are multiple people here with gsds that have watched them grow up ... so just because its not on one forum doesn't mean they have no idea...


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

So are you saying that because it's an Urma picture, no one would conceive of editing it?

To that I call bulljargon.

If you are saying that Urma does not edit their pictures, to that I agree. Because at the very least, that edit is a terrible job and if a professional photography company turned out such work they would not stay in business for long.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Add up the cost for your dogs Urma photo and add to the the troubles you would get for posting their photo in a badly edited way when they are the tip top company and their rep is everything and no people don't want to piss them off and will not edit Urma photos and mess up something they paid so much for. You just don't comprehend this lol You don't pay to take your dog to a show in Germany buy an Urma just to come back home mess it up and post it with the Urma signature.

Many here have had gsds and watched them grow up does not mean they know anything about what has been discussed lol 
Only a handful here live with rich pigmented red and black show lines here. For curiosity Miranda what breed do you own? 

Think what you like but I still disagree and retire doing so to go play wow for the evening.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> go ask the forum lol I have gave the info you refuse to read and ponder what I wrote. You do not know the first year changes in a gsd. Not all of those photos were done same time so I doubt they were all uploaded same time or same way or same equipment. This dog is being unfairly discussed here and I am done.
> 
> yes Equinox there has been but NOT to Urma photos, you just are not conceiving the difference here.


I'm interested as well in this statement - I absolutely agree that Urma photos are FANTASTIC and really the best there is if you wanted a good picture of your GSD, but that doesn't mean that whoever had their hands on their photo didn't feel a need to do some "touch-ups"! It may be the best picture you can get of the dog at that age, but it's not the epitome of perfection in everyone's eyes. It may be Urma, but others who have the photo may still wish to edit it.

Maybe it's too much trouble in their eyes and maybe it isn't! There's no way to know what they were thinking at the time they did the editing. It's certainly not a new concept in the world of dogs, and it isn't going away anytime soon. Urma isn't immune to that! No one edits a picture to "mess it up". WE may think the picture is "messed up", but they probably believe it is an improvement, as is the point of PP  

Just because it isn't the smart thing to do, doesn't mean that no one's going to do it (man, and don't we all know it? LOL)! Especially when it is such a common practice already.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I can say with 100% certainty that the top biggest photo in the montage has been edited. Weather it's a unethical thing or not depends on why it was edited. and although I believe photo 2 below it has also been edited the JPEG quality of that image is too poor for me to be able to prove anything with 100% certainty. 
I am not here to "back up" anyone who may have already posted but only as interest as a photography major


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here's what the real issue is.

A competitor with a German show line would NEVER edit a photo! Only Americans do things like that!!!!

To which I will loudly proclaim that IT IS ABSOLUTE HORSE PUCKEY! Some people edit photos of their dogs! Some people think it makes the dogs look better! Some people use it as an advertising gimmick!

But to pull your hat down over your face, cover your ears, and go "lalalallalala!!!" is just asinine. It shouldn't be so hard to accept that a photo was edited. Noticing it is not a slight on the dog. It's a slight on the person that did such an AWFUL job at it!

The owner has a NICE DOG, and whoever may have edited that photo should be smacked upside the head with a moldy tuna!


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

oh and Yvonne this has nothing to do with my dogs, as well as nothing to do with the dogs structure but it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact the photo is edited. 
ALSO just because i dont OWN a gsd doesnt mean im not an expert on the structure either .... do all judges who judge gsd own them ... no ... but they have to be experts dont they ... NOWHERE DID I EVER SAY I WAS AN EXPERT, but I know when a photo looks fake .... and that photo looks fake . PERIOD.

P.S. Calling out what kind of dogs I have is completely irrelevant and just shows your insecurity on the matter ... thank you very much


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Close up of top line picture top one. Not a very good quality scanned copy but not in my opinion altered by studying an enlarged of it.










second photo again not good quality scan but not altered. No scamming no alterations IMO










I think this person is being accused unjustly and they are not here to defend their photos and dog.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Its not about their dog .... its about the photo
and IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE THEM WHO EDITED IT ... for cripes sake ... anybody that finds that picture online can rip it and play with it ... yea its illegal but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I'm not a professional photographer, but I am an avid photographer, make use of photoshop regularly, and am a member of a photo club with a number of professional photographers, and I'm in agreement with the others, that photo was edited. 

I'd also say that editing a photo is not necessarily unethical, ALL digital photos must be edited to a certain degree, they don't come out of the camera looking that good. The white balance, contrast, saturation, etc., must be adjusted to have the photo reflect what the photographer saw as accurately as possible. This is no different than what happens at the photo developers with film pictures, you just aren't involved in the process. Now, editing your dog to remove flaws in the dog's structure would definitely be unethical of course.

And, has anyone noticed that Yvonne has stated now three times that she's leaving this thread? How many times do you think she'll be back?


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

okay just wondered how long it would take the group to gather you are still missing two  Have fun and perhaps the owner of the dog should be sent this link  You guys are just dripping with honey and sweetness and all that is good.


This must be payback about my comment about people editing their dogs structure on advertisements and someone was offended because it was her dog and these are her friends and her  or perhaps jealousy of this gorgeous dog? Night night, time to go kill horde guild is finally ready.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

In case you are referring to your previous statement about backing up xeph ... um you need to check your facts cuz ACTUALLY it was reagan who suggested the photo was edited to begin with ... so i believe your snide little comment isnt really valid


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Knew exactly what it was referenced to having fun gabbing and co-ordinating attack? wow and not world of warcraft lol


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> okay just wondered how long it would take the group to gather you are still missing two  Have fun and perhaps the owner of the dog should be sent this link  You guys are just dripping with honey and sweetness and all that is good.


Yvonne, I'm wondering why the animosity? If you feel personally offended and feel obligated to send the owner of the dog this link, I would love for you to. I'm interested in hearing what they would have to say! Like I said, nothing bad has been said about the dog or the owner, so I want nothing more than to hear a good explanation and have this resolved. 

I've honestly made an effort to be open minded and continue a good, interactive discussion. I regret that you feel the need for sarcasm and biting remarks regarding certain members of this forum. I am OFTEN in the minority when it comes to discussions/debates/polls, but I never believed that a specific "group" of people banded together just to take hits at me, nor did I keep tabs on them.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> In case you are referring to your previous statement about backing up xeph ... um you need to check your facts cuz ACTUALLY it was reagan who suggested the photo was edited to begin with ... so i believe your snide little comment isnt really valid


Not to mention, in that thread, you attacked Xeph over her comment about fixing the croup without ever asking her exactly what she meant by what she said. She was referring to fixing fur that had been messed up by the wind, you assumed she intended to hide a structural flaw in her dog and attacked her without verifying the truth first. Pretty much exactly what you are now accusing US of doing. Kind of ironic, isn't it?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yes, Yvonne, I gathered all these people. It's a GIANT conspiracy against you! NONE of these people can think on their own or have their own opinions. They're ALL MY MINIONS!!!

BTW one of you owes me 5 bucks.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

No actually ... I remember you stating it before ... and how ridiculous I found the statement actually.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Yes, Yvonne, I gathered all these people. It's a GIANT conspiracy against you! NONE of these people can think on their own or have their own opinions. They're ALL MY MINIONS!!!
> 
> BTW one of you owes me 5 bucks.


Yup, she caught us out Xeph. I know I'm completely incapable of forming a coherent thought without your guidance. Speaking of which, please pm me, I have NO idea what to say next, lol.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

you can't see it? There are two tell tale signs that this has photoshopping in it hold on while I make a visual.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Acctually Xeph according to certain people yer all figments of my imagination....

As on the photo, if you look CLOSELY at the GRASS over the dogs Back it wavers....which shows BLATENT editing.

Oops only missing 1 now,

(raises hand) I see it Keechak!!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Remind me to never own a GSD, please. A shame since they are lovely dogs but I have seriously never seen debates about things like this that are anywhere near as vicious as the GSD stuff. Too bad every thread has to turn so sour and some people have to resort to personal attacks.

Now Xeph, please round up your minions and your crippled American dog and don't make me tell you again how icky she is!!!!! GAWD!!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Now Xeph, please round up your minions and your crippled American dog and don't make me tell you again how icky she is!!!!! GAWD!!


Well I can get the minions caged, but alas, my crippled dog is chasing flaming sheep somewhere.

Maybe I should just look for a glow on the horizon.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Flaming sheep like this?









And, still waiting to be told what to say next Xeph. Clearly, as one of your loyal minions, I have no original thoughts, and must parrot whatever you tell me to say!


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

*Squawk squawk squawk*


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

LOL!!! Miranda, you are awesome!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

As another PS'er, I see clone tool being used. I honestly don't care one way or another about the dog or Urma, but these photos were edited by someone. 



Keechak said:


> you can't see it? There are two tell tale signs that this has photoshopping in it hold on while I make a visual.


Was this originally a .jpg? I can only see one clone area,  VISUAL!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

The clone tool was used, but the contrast and saturation are WAY over done in the one photo as well.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> The clone tool was used, but the contrast and saturation are WAY over done in the one photo as well.


Yes, I definitely agree. I've never seen a gsd that red or black!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Yeah, it was very obviously over done. I used to do that all the time when I was first learning to edit, so I'm very familiar with the effects, lol.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I told them to say that.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Yes, yes she did.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

lol, ditto Kuma'sMom. I still push it sometimes... I have a thing for deep colors. I just can't control it! XD

eta; yes, my mind is being blindly controlled by Xeph. You caught me!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Hah, yeah, I still have to really watch myself too. Deep colors are great, there's just a fine line between bold deep color and wildly oversaturated color, lol. It's not always easy to see where that line is. That's why I love my photo forum, they'll tell it to you straight when you post your pics for critique there. 

And yes, Xeph told me to say all that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MissMutt said:


> Remind me to never own a GSD, please. *A shame since they are lovely dogs but I have seriously never seen debates about things like this that are anywhere near as vicious as the GSD stuff. * Too bad every thread has to turn so sour and some people have to resort to personal attacks.
> 
> Now Xeph, please round up your minions and your crippled American dog and don't make me tell you again how icky she is!!!!! GAWD!!


Take a look at border collies. lol They make GSD debates look like child's play.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

As someone who is not a minion, (clearly as I have kept out of this silly little argument till now), I have to say (in my own words), that the photo in question is indeed edited. Very badly at that as well, you can clearly see the 90 degree angle of dark grass to light grass, photos straight from a camera would not have a 90 degree angle like that in the middle of the photo, nor would the dog look airbrushed. 

This is not a bad mouth of the dog, nor the original photographer, it is however on the person responsible for the editing (who really needs to take a class on photo editing).

The dog however is a lovely dog, one of the better I have seen from the UK, and the fact that he won the group, means he was cleared by the vet to be healthy, as GSDs are one of the "at risk" breeds deemed so by the KC. And all winners at KC shows now of those dozen breeds or so have to be cleared by the vet before they can officially get that win, and move on to the group for the breed winners.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Here is the first thing that stuck out like a sore thumb to me, any good photoshopper should know to avoid patterns in the areas chosen to select from with the clone stamp tool. The area circled in this image shows duplicated patterns in the grass above the topline caused by the clone stamp.









In this second image there is a definate tho slight loss of clarity in the topline between the two points compaired to the more defined edge before and after it.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Wow, Xeph's getting wicked creative controlling our thoughts/speech tonight.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> it is however on the person responsible for the editing (who really needs to take a class on photo editing).


Which is what we've all been saying x.x *Sigh*


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I know! Who knew she knows so much about photo editing?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Which is what we've all been saying x.x *Sigh*


I know that is what you all have been saying, as I have been watching the forum, till I posted just now. The arguments on this forum get to be a little tedious, so that is why I tend to stay out of them


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Especially when my own cropping jobs suck so hard core. And I could barely figure out how to convert a photo to black and white?!

I'M SOME SORT OF CLOSET GENIUS!!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Especially when my own cropping jobs suck so hard core. And I could barely figure out how to convert a photo to black and white?!
> 
> I'M SOME SORT OF CLOSET GENIUS!!


It's just all part of your grand evil plan, right Xeph? All this time, you had us thinking you don't know how to edit, just for a thread like this!  Genius!


And yes, still parroting whatever Xeph tells me. She's the evil genius after all!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> Yes, I definitely agree. I've never seen a gsd that red or black!


To be fair, there are quite a few German show lines with that deep red coat pigment. 




















Laurelin said:


> Take a look at border collies. lol They make GSD debates look like child's play.


And when you're ready to really have some fun, hang out on the Pit Bull and gamedog forums LOL


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> To be fair, there are quite a few German show lines with that deep red coat pigment.


Agreed, but it's quite obvious that the deep red and black in that photo is anything but natural.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I have a friend that is a photographer, would you like for me to send her this photo to get her opinion?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I could also post them on my photo forum and get a few of the pro's there to evaluate the photos if everyone wants.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

you all don't know fun till you get ripped apart for calling you mix a GSD Mix. XD


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Xeph's photoshop skills suck to that I can attest, compared to her I can perform magic.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Really? Why on earth would you get ripped apart for that?


Man, Pug forums are a whole 'nother world from what you guys deal with. I actually left my Pug forum because it was too boring, lol. Just thread after thread of people cooing about how cute each other's dogs are. Not that that isn't nice, but it does get old after a while.



> Xeph's photoshop skills suck to that I can attest, compared to her I can perform magic.


It's all an act. She PRETENDS to be bad at photoshop, while in reality, she is controlling your mind while you edit in photoshop. All part of her masterplan to control us minions!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> All part of her masterplan to control us minions!


Actually, I'm trying to take over the world and have a consortium of people with Tourette's to help me attain that goal, so I really don't have time to orchestrate such a masterful plan as I have been credited with.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Ah, but for a mad closet genius like you, controling us would be like a side hobby or something. Hardly any effort at all I'm sure, lol.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I need some minions.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Don't we all?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'm sorry, but I've cornered the market on minions. Get in line.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, can I at least have a nemesis?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

That does it, I'm going to have to go find another forum where I can have minions of my own! **stomps foot**


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Really? Why on earth would you get ripped apart for that?
> 
> 
> Man, Pug forums are a whole 'nother world from what you guys deal with. I actually left my Pug forum because it was too boring, lol. Just thread after thread of people cooing about how cute each other's dogs are. Not that that isn't nice, but it does get old after a while.
> ...


Because the PERSON in question was a Hard core GSD Person and said that my GSD Mix was not a GSD Mix, even though the Mom was a Purebred GSD, and dad was a Greyhound...(Shrugs) She insisted GSD Mixes could not come in Brindle.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Because the PERSON in question was a Hard core GSD Person and said that my GSD Mix was not a GSD Mix, even though the Mom was a Purebred GSD, and dad was a Greyhound...(Shrugs) She insisted GSD Mixes could not come in Brindle.


Riiiiight, that makes perfect sense, LOL.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Bree was definitly a GSD Mix, I saw her mother, beautiful Bitch...(shurgs) I'll refrain from posting pics because I'm sure that person will show up here.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Awww, I'd love to see pics of her. Let that person show up, we'll set her straight!


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Okay, hang on...









My Dearly departed Bree.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> @Pai, I'd be interested in seeing some examples, if you didn't mind. PM is fine.


Oh, I didn't save any, I just noticed them and quietly reduced my opinion of the people posting them on the ML I'm on.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

She's beautiful Deron! Don't know how anyone can see those ears and still insist she has no GSD in her, lol.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Yeah neither could I Kuma, She definitly had GSD in her.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

My brother say this ALL THE TIME (he's such a dork), so I've been giggling through this whole thread thinking of it ('cuz I'm a dork, too).

Plus I get extra points for incorporating Hitler, which of course is necessary in any internet argument.

Xeph told me to say that!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

That's awesome! Except, everyone knows that as soon as you incorporate Hitler into your internet argument, the thread dies! LOL


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Hitler's bad juju....and he's currently trying to ruin the lives of many workers in WI.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Really? How so?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Another thread will have to be started, but I will tell you that the Governor has stripped "collective bargaining rights" from the workers.

It's just screwed up at home right now


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Ah man, that sucks! I'm really sorry to hear that Xeph.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Imhotep.......Imhotep.........Imhotep .....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Best. Smilie. EVER.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Yeah, that's pretty freakin' awesome!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

pugmom wins at life


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

The other group winners at Crufts

Gundog Group winner: 9 year old Flat Coated Retriever, Eng SH CH Vbos The Kentuckian










Working Group winner: Boxer, CH/IR CH Winuwuk Lust At First Sight 










Hound Group Winner: 18 month old Basset Griffon Vedeen (Petit), Soletrader Peek A Boo










Terrier Group Winner: Fox Terrier (Wire), CH Travella Star Lord










Thought I would just put the rest up.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Beautiful dogs, and great attempt to bring this thread back on topic!  Love that PBGV, I've always been a fan of the breed.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I like that Boxer. The expression on his face is just priceless. But they are all lovely dogs.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Yeah, he's a beauty too for sure.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> Yes, I definitely agree. I've never seen a gsd that red or black!


The dog in your avatar is the most red and black GSD I've ever seen! (lol)

Sorry, I just had to add that, I don't want to comment on the argument going on here!

BTW, I've never seen a Boxer with facial markings like that. Usually I see Boxers with solid black masks. Looks very unique! Like he was sniffing flour, lol!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Side profile of Max:









I watched that dog quite a bit while I was in England, he is certainly one of the best boxers out showing now there.

Although the white on his muzzle does make him look like he got into powdered donuts.



Kuma'sMom said:


> and great attempt to bring this thread back on topic!


Figured somebody had to do it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OK, someone 'splain it to me. . I thought cropping AND docking were illegal there? So why is the Boxer docked? Well, now I notice the Fox Terrier also looks to be docked, though not as short as most. What's up with that?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The Flattie is beautiful. I wish the Boxer was cropped, but it is a lovely dog. Also love the PBGV. Not such a fan of the Terrier, but that's me


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Willowy said:


> OK, someone 'splain it to me. . I thought cropping AND docking were illegal there? So why is the Boxer docked? Well, now I notice the Fox Terrier also looks to be docked, though not as short as most. What's up with that?


Perhaps he has a natural bob tail?


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

lol welcome to DF 

The Flat Coated Retriever is stunning, and of course I adore the PBGV (PBGV puppies are quite possible the cutest puppies in existence).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Nargle said:


> Perhaps he has a natural bob tail?


Hmmm, maybe. It does look a bit funny. Could be it.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> OK, someone 'splain it to me. . I thought cropping AND docking were illegal there? So why is the Boxer docked? Well, now I notice the Fox Terrier also looks to be docked, though not as short as most. What's up with that?


He was docked before the docking ban, so he is still able to show. The fox terrier is not docked (at least I don't think he is), just has seemed to have been trained to stiffen his tail, I don't think that dog is old enough to have been docked legally but I may be wrong.

The cut off date is April 6, 2007. So any dog docked before then is still eligible to enter and show.

I saw plenty of docked dogs while I was in England, but you won't find a cropped dog anywhere.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The terrier's tail looks too blunt on the end, I would think if it were natural it would be more tapered. But it is long, and I've never seen a natural Fox Terrier tail, so what do I know, LOL.

I did hear there were some loopholes regarding "working dogs", open to a great deal of interpretation. And the people who will just dock the pups and take the penalty if caught. Just wondering if he was like that or what.

I much prefer uncropped Boxers. I admit that a nicely cropped Dobe looks good, and some of the other commonly cropped breeds (even though I am against cropping), but I can't stand cropped ears on Boxers or Danes. Just looks wrong to me.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The terrier's tail looks too blunt on the end, I would think if it were natural it would be more tapered.


Scissors (for stray hairs)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't like undocked boxers, nor do I like undocked dobermans, blech dobes look like overweight pariah dogs with those long tails that curl over their backs. In fact I don't like the undocked version of any traditionally docked breed, except for maybe spinone italianos at least they have good tail sets. Poodle undocked tails cut at a 90 angle and lay on top of the topline, not particularly flattering. 

As for cropping, I like a good crop on most traditionally cropped breeds, great danes could go either way for me though.

But I do like this guy's crop (but then again I like the entire dog), my friend's dane


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

*WOW! GSD people are hardcore.LOL*



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I saw plenty of docked dogs while I was in England, but you won't find a cropped dog anywhere.


*This is true,i see plenty of docked rotties (quite a few undocked too) but never cropped dogs of any kind which is a shame because dobes and quite a few other breeds look much better cropped IMO. Dobermans used to be a very popular breed but with the crop/dock ban i hardly see any*



ChaosIsAWeim said:


>


*Beautiful Dane!*

*ETA: Chaos that Flat coat is a beauty! I didnt even use my complimentary cruft tickets as i haven't had the time to get down to birmingham *


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I missed this whole thread (working on house stuff here this weekend). 

I really like the GSD Cruft's winner. He is very much a good looking dog. Powerful behind, good bone... very myuch WGSL dog. 

IMO the photo in question was not altered. I do think it was taken at an age when maybe the dog was not at his best (they gtrow forever) and the angle looks a bit high. I also know that, as a professional photographer (no longer active), you take more than one shot when you pose animals or people and sometimes the best one is not YOUR best one if you know what I mean. Even well known pros can get one or two out there that are not the best.. or they toss one in there that is not the best and that is the one the owner chooses.. or the entire series was not so great for a variety of reasons. 

That being said, the one reason I hate digital photography is that a lot of digital photographers have gotten sloppy with image capture and the ol' Photoshop routine. I still say the object is to get it correct OUT OF THE CAMERA. Photoshopping every image is time. Time that could be spent shooting another job and making more money. 

Digital and the one day photography wonders who are more computer operator than photographer and who think they are making money shooting events for $400 are the reasons I walked away from the whole thing. And the whole Photoshop thing is why I still shoot pro jobs (the ones I still get) with Film. Negatives can be retouched (better be medium or large format) but it is not common and the scans can be altered but I will have the originals archived away (as scans or with the negatives). 

BTW if you buy a professional photo of yourself, your dog, or anything else you need to get a RELEASE OF COPYRIGHT to legally alter the image, digital or film, or to make any copies. If someone took that photo and fiddled with it after the photographer released it, unless they had a release to do so (and it has to say it on the release that ALL rightws are released) then they broke copyright law. 

Due to the propensity for such things on the internet etc. it is impossible for a photographer to keep up with this stuff.. and the alteratins can be pretty gruesome. This is another reason why I quit the business. A bad alteration of a photo you took can kill your business. 

Anyway,.,. carry on. I like this years Pastoral Winner at Crufts. Nice dog. Topline is not a significant enough issue to not breed to him IMO. Too many other really good features to worry about that top line!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Anyway,.,. carry on. I like this years Pastoral Winner at Crufts. Nice dog. Topline is not a significant enough issue to not breed to him IMO. Too many other really good features to worry about that top line!


Yes indeed, checked out the youtube and I like the way he moves, this is stated by somebody who does not have a clue to what standard is in vogue now just what is pleasing to my eye.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

It's the 8th Conspiracy.

I freaking knew it.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Nargle said:


> The dog in your avatar is the most red and black GSD I've ever seen! (lol)
> 
> Sorry, I just had to add that, I don't want to comment on the argument going on here!


Lol, you're slick.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Other winners:

Gundog:

Reserve: Irish Water Spaniel, SH CH STANEGATE SPARKS WILL FLY (AI)










Third: Cocker Spaniel, SH CH LUJESA TOUCH THE SKY JW










Fourth: Golden Retriever, LINIRGOR MACTAVISH










Hound Group: 

Reserve: Swedish dog, Borzoi, CIB/SE/NO/FI/DK CH BORZOWSKI'S PHENOMENON 










Third: Afghan Hound, IR CH ASHAHNI AMIR









Fourth: Italian dog, Whippet, IT CH SOBERS INGRID









Pastoral:

Reserve: Estonian dog, Samoyed, CIB/EST/FIN/LT/LV/RUS CH PILGRIMAGE SNOW BALL









Third: American dog, Australian Shepherd, CH/DK/NO/VDH/INT CH THORNAPPLE AFTERSHOCK









Fourth: Norwegian dog, Norwegian Buhund, NUCH LUXCH NORDV-10 BEW-10 KIMURA'S JENSEMANN


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I did not read the whole thread but noticed some people saying he was too red to be real. I disagree, Priscilla was extremely red.










This picture is overexposed and she's still extremely red.









Properly exposed









Underexposed


















Just gave a wide variety of shots for reference (so that people dont think it's just light/exposition/etc that is making her red.)

I agree that the photo in question was obviously edited (there's absolutely no way it cannot be, at the very least the saturation was messed with) and the topline looks messed with because I see a difference in pixellation and pattern there. But GSD's can get really red.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Terrier Group:

Reserve: Airedale Terrier, CH/AM CH LONGVUE JACKPOT OF SAREDON









Third: Staffordshire Bull Terrier, CH HUBBULLS THE PROMISE









Fourth: Norwich Terrier, RAGUS JAZZ KING









Working:

Reserve: Newfoundland, CH/IR CH FAIRWEATHERS KNOCK OUT WITH BROOKLYNBEAR (IMP)









Third: Dobermann, CH SUPETA'S OZZY OSBOURNE JW









Fourth: Rottweiler, CH OLEARIA BLAZE OF GOLD


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Yvonne said:


> The purchaser of the photo would be the owner of the photo? Am I wrong ?


You are wrong. 

When you buy a photo, unless you have a written contract to the contrary, you are buying a print. You are not buying the right to use or alter the image in other ways. Those rights remain with the photographer (who will have a release if he intends to use the photo for commercial or promotional purposes.)

And if you want to know if a photo has been doctored, you don't ask a German Shepherd forum - you ask a photographer.

This is a really silly thread. It doesn't deserve an offspring.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

RonE said:


> This is a really silly thread.


The thread isn't silly, the argument within this thread is silly.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> The thread isn't silly, the argument within this thread is silly.


Honestly this thread HAS just become an argument, so while the OP isn't the least bit silly, the thread now is. 

(we should have another argument just about threads vs. conversations/arguments within threads - how's that for silly?  )


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I really like all of the dogs! I'm surprised, usually there are a handful of dogs I just don't care for. Love the Staffy and the Cocker and the Water Spaniel, I like the Dobe but uncropped + docked looks really weird to me. I do prefer a cropped and docked Dobe, which leaves me conflicted because I'm not sure its a really ethical thing to do, but if you're going to keep one keep both. Otherwise the dog just looks unbalanced.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm still loving the Norwegian Buhund!! Are they much more common across the pond than they are over here? I don't know enough about the breed to recognize/know about a difference in type, either. 



RaeganW said:


> I like the Dobe but uncropped + docked looks really weird to me. I do prefer a cropped and docked Dobe, which leaves me conflicted because I'm not sure its a really ethical thing to do


I think that sums up me feelings exactly. I always understand those who argue against cropping/docking, but then I remember how much I love a nicely cropped/docked Doberman...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I didn't care for the Dobe or the Rott personally, but I loved the Irish Water Spaniel and the Newfie! I just can't get down with the tail on the Norwich. Nice dog, but distracting.

The Buhund is lovely!


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Anywayz...

Yeah I don't like the dobe either... I don't think I'll ever be able to get over an uncropped dobe. The water spaniel is just cool.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I didn't care for the Dobe or the Rott personally, but I loved the Irish Water Spaniel and the Newfie! I just can't get down with the tail on the Norwich. Nice dog, but distracting.
> 
> The Buhund is lovely!


Agreed about the Dobe and the Rottie. Neither were my favorites and let's face it, generally they are. I just can't get behind the no cropped Doberman. I love Dobes ears cropped and tails... they MUST be docked. IMO


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I will admit presentation has something to do with it. The way the handler is holding the Doberman's collar is really unflattering.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Well I will continue to post the winners, if anybody is still interested. 

Toy Group:

Winner: Bichon Frise, CH PAMPLONA BRING ME SUNSHINE









Reserve: Finnish dog, Lowchen, CIB/NORD CH CHIC CHOIX MARKEY LIFAR









Third: Norwegian dog, Pug (an "at risk" breed), N/S/DK/FIN/NORD/RUS/LV/LT/BALK CH TANGETOPPEN`S UNBREAKABLE NEWS









Fourth: Denmark dog, Pomeranian, DK/SE/INT/SK CH SOFFIES QUEEN BEE WW09 









Utility:

Winner: Standard Poodle, CH Vicmars Rave on JW









Reserve: Lhasa Apso, CH ZENTARR ELIZABETH









Third: Akita, CH RUTHDALES CANDY FROM A BABY
Dog on the Right:









Fourth: Shih Tzu, SANTOSHA THUNDERBOLT











Xeph said:


> I will admit presentation has something to do with it. The way the handler is holding the Doberman's collar is really unflattering.


Yeah it does, I saw enough bad presentation while I was in England to last me a life time. The owner of a bulldog I showed, had me show her (a young puppy I might add) on a collar fit for a mastiff. I had no idea what to do with the collar, plus they wanted me to string her up, which I never ever do with a bulldog, it was extremely hard to string the dog up with such a large collar. 

I spent quite a time at the doberman ring at Crufts last year (because I was hoping to meet the person from another forum I am on, but never found her), and there was only one person not practically shoving bait down their dogs throat, seriously I am not sure why there was a need to have bait in front of the dogs face the whole entire time.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I love that Shih Tzu! And the Pug and Pom! The whole toy group was beautiful!!!

Heck, I love ALL of the latest posted dogs!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

BIS: Judged by Dr. Paolo Dondina (WKC BIS Judge)

Flat Coated Retriever, SH CH VBOS THE KENTUCKIAN









Reserve BIS: 
PBGV, SOLETRADER PEEK A BOO









BIS was the oldest dog in the line up at 9 years old, Reserve BIS was the youngest at 18 months old and the only bitch.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Third: Norwegian dog, Pug *(an "at risk" breed*), N/S/DK/FIN/NORD/RUS/LV/LT/BALK CH TANGETOPPEN`S UNBREAKABLE NEWS


Could someone elaborate for me, please?



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> BIS: Judged by Dr. Paolo Dondina (WKC BIS Judge)
> 
> Flat Coated Retriever, SH CH VBOS THE KENTUCKIAN
> 
> ...


Awesome! Both are lovely dogs. 

I think overall, I'm pretty happy with the results


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Equinox said:


> Could someone elaborate for me, please?


Sure, what I meant by that is the kennel club has basically put together an "at risk'' of health problems breeds list, 15 of which were getting really looked at, at Crufts this year. An "at risk" breed has to pass a health exam performed by a vet at the show before it is allowed to officially have it's win, and I believe before the breed winner can move on to the group. 

For pugs I would assume it would have something to do with their nostrils and trachea and folds. For GSDs I would assume it would have something to do with their rears.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

What an honor to judge the two most prestigious shows in the world in the same year!

I again like Mr Dondina's choices!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> What an honor to judge the two most prestigious shows in the world in the same year!
> 
> I again like Mr Dondina's choices!


Plus he is judging something at the Eukenuba National Championships this year. (Which I am going to)

As for what I think about the winners, I love both BIS and reserve BIS. I am surprised that a red staffordshire bull terrier won the breed, but a lovely dog anyways. All the dogs are really nice. But I do agree I don't right much like the doberman, but at least he is docked and doesn't have a tail double curled over his back.

I don't want to go to much further into the debate that went on, but I thought I should post what my friend (a photographer) said. Word for word

"yes it totally is they are messing with lighting and contrast to make the dog shine and possibly cleaned around the sides any free hair. (i could do it lol)

high contrast i think they selected the dog from the photo and heightened contrast and lighting even further."


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I love that a Standard Poodle won the utility group. 

I really love Standard Poodles and I am actually sponsoring a prize for the High Score poodle (any size) at our club trial this year.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I'm sure everyone will be shocked to find out that I LOVE that Pug!!!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I ADORE uncropped dobes. And I'm not saying that just to be contrary. 

ETA: Nor as any kind of ethical argument. I truly prefer the look.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I ADORE uncropped dobes. And I'm not saying that just to be contrary.
> 
> ETA: Nor as any kind of ethical argument. I truly prefer the look.


Me too. I kind of wish the rottie had his tail, too. I like a natural look in dogs though. I'm not totally against docking and cropping for ethical reasons (not to go off on a tangent, but it kind of seems like circumcision -- it may be mostly cultural, but what's the harm if the experience is totally forgotten, and it has little or no impact on the dog's quality of life? It's kind of a gray area to me, unlike declawing cats, which is horrible), but it just looks a bit artificial to me, or like something is missing. I'm looking forward to seeing photos of the future generations of "all-natural" dogs being shown in Europe.

I also think people's preferences are probably often influenced by what they're used to looking at. Not to be presumptuous, but I imagine after 20-30 years of no docking or cropping most people would come to look at old pictures of cropped/docked dogs with distaste.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

sassafras said:


> I ADORE uncropped dobes. And I'm not saying that just to be contrary.
> 
> ETA: Nor as any kind of ethical argument. I truly prefer the look.


Lol, I can't stand them. I find it hard to tell if they're a coonhound or a dobe at that point.  It's their selling point!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Lol, I can't stand them. I find it hard to tell if they're a coonhound or a dobe at that point.  It's their selling point!


Badwrong!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Badwrong!


hahaha, I love it!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

sassafras said:


> I ADORE uncropped dobes. And I'm not saying that just to be contrary.
> 
> ETA: Nor as any kind of ethical argument. I truly prefer the look.


Me too.



begemot said:


> . . . I also think people's preferences are probably often influenced by what they're used to looking at. Not to be presumptuous, but I imagine after 20-30 years of no docking or cropping most people would come to look at old pictures of cropped/docked dogs with distaste.


Probably because I had not ever seen a cropped/docked dog (but for one stumpy tailed dog that was born that way and we considered it odd then) until I was into my 40s, I really find cropped and docked animals look terribly odd, and prefer the look of the natural ear and tail. I've always sat on the fence on the ethical debate so for me its not to do with that, just the look.

SOB


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> Probably because I had not ever seen a cropped/docked dog (but for one stumpy tailed dog that was born that way and we considered it odd then) until I was into my 40s, I really find cropped and docked animals look terribly odd, and prefer the look of the natural ear and tail. I've always sat on the fence on the ethical debate so for me its not to do with that, just the look.


It's probably the same reason for me.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

And one last thing that she said when I asked her about the 90 degree angle in the grass. 

" no it would not be present, which is what leads me to believe they used a lasso or another tool to either flip the dogs picture or to hide something from view with a clone tool or bandage. however it strikes me as odd that they only used enhancements on the dog and the grass in front of it. around the rear you can see a definable line which is either a clone or bandage. it starts at the head behind the ears then goes to just before the lead then stops the person takes a bit of clone from the right and starts again at the rear and stops just before we get to the base of the tail.
it looks almost as if it was cut and pasted from another photo onto the green grass. there are at least two clone circles i can see in the right where you see the same grass pattern right ontop of one another causing it to blob a bit giving a circular look and keeping it from effectively blending. there is just a lot of editing behind the dog (to the right) the front (left) seems to say...possibly some editing of the grass...now look at the shadow why would the grass in front of the dog be darker if it's shadow is falling in that way? and the grass to the right be so bright (that is lighting not dying grass) there is a bit of bandage work infront of the head giving it a wavy look. the dog itself could possibly have some spot heeling im not seeing in the black or some minor cloning to cover up coloring. any more Q feel free to throw them my way =]"

And now I am done.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Am I one of the other two minions? I need to know this for my official records. I always thought I served Jonas exclusively.

I love that Buhund, but these silly Norwegian dogs seem to grow on me all the time.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Equinox said:


> I'm still loving the Norwegian Buhund!! Are they much more common across the pond than they are over here? I don't know enough about the breed to recognize/know about a difference in type, either.


I don't remember seeing that many while I was over there, but it may have just been the shows I went to, I didn't get over to the Buhund ring at Crufts last year, I was pretty busy checking out all the trade stands that day. I don't know how I did it, but I did make it to every single one at least once. And I did look quite a bit at discover dogs (and worked at a booth), and YKC.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I don't remember seeing that many while I was over there, but it may have just been the shows I went to, I didn't get over to the Buhund ring at Crufts last year, I was pretty busy checking out all the trade stands that day. I don't know how I did it, but I did make it to every single one at least once. And I did look quite a bit at discover dogs (and worked at a booth), and YKC.


Thanks - I met my first Buhunds at a large all breed show here in Oregon and fell in love. Really fun dogs. There were only 4 Buhunds at the shows all weekend, two owned by one couple and two owned by another. I talked to the owner/handlers a bit and it seemed to be that there are only a handful on a few areas here and there, not many breeders at all in the US. Lovely dogs, I really liked them. I've been trying to learn more about them ever since.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> OK, someone 'splain it to me. . I thought cropping AND docking were illegal there? So why is the Boxer docked? Well, now I notice the Fox Terrier also looks to be docked, though not as short as most. What's up with that?


Crufts allows showing of Cropped/docked from other countries or that were performed before the ban. Many cropped/docked fans will send their bitches to other counties where it's NOT banned to be born and will bring them back once the deed is done. The litter is cross registered, to keep them eligble.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Crufts allows showing of Cropped/docked from other countries or that were performed before the ban. Many cropped/docked fans will send their bitches to other counties where it's NOT banned to be born and will bring them back once the deed is done. The litter is cross registered, to keep them eligble.


They don't allow cropped dogs. And dogs docked from other countries would have to have been docked before April 6, 2007. 

If the dog was legally docked on/after that date the dog can only enter shows in Scotland, Northern Ireland, or shows the public doesn't pay to see, and Crufts is not one of them. 

Taken from the Crufts eligibility/Schedule PDF.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I also like the look of a lot of these winners. regarding the docking ban, at least I will always see tailess aussies in the show ring ban or no ban.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Xeph said:


> I love that Shih Tzu! And the Pug and Pom! The whole toy group was beautiful!!!
> 
> Heck, I love ALL of the latest posted dogs!


Hehe, I'm not a fan of the toy winners, but I'm biased. None of those are my preferred toy breeds.

But I was unaware that shih tzus were in utility and not toy (I knew bichons were in toy not utility but it seems weird that tzus are not)


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Hehe, I'm not a fan of the toy winners, but I'm biased. None of those are my preferred toy breeds.
> 
> But I was unaware that shih tzus were in utility and not toy (I knew bichons were in toy not utility but it seems weird that tzus are not)


I am not a fan of any of the toy breeds that won either - the Pug appealed the most but not really - I guess I can't get into the hairdressing.

I have to be a biotch and note that as I googled to find the Cavalier BOB pedigree I found that he is not yet four years of age and has already grandsired multiple litters . . . just too typical. With breeders that are being so careless with the health in this breed, and being represented as the breed's best, I am glad Cavaliers weren't picked, even though I really admire the dogs of this breed.

http://www.scarlett-team.com/pedigree_r.htm

http://www.cavalierkingunicasoluzione.com/first-love-di-unica-soluzione/

I did like the Papillon BOB - pretty girl she is.










I really like this BOB too (Tibbylands Solo).










SOB


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Other winners:
> 
> 
> Fourth: Golden Retriever, LINIRGOR MACTAVISH


Any relation to:


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> I am not a fan of any of the toy breeds that won either - the Pug appealed the most but not really - I guess I can't get into the hairdressing.
> 
> I have to be a biotch and note that as I googled to find the Cavalier BOB pedigree I found that he is not yet four years of age and has already grandsired multiple litters . . . just too typical. With breeders that are being so careless with the health in this breed, and being represented as the breed's best, I am glad Cavaliers weren't picked, even though I really admire the dogs of this breed.
> 
> ...


Paps and Tibbies are definitely more my 'thing'.  Those are my two favorite toy sized breeds by a long shot. The paps is pretty but I love that Tibbie. I would love to see a more flattering pic of the pap though.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Just gotta throw in some Flattie love for the BIS: HURRAY GO FLAT-COATS!!! 


*ahem*

Anyway, I like this pic of him better. Not as "pretty" but a better stack and you can actually see the dog.









http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk



--------------
ETA since I missed them before but...

<3 Pris. Still the nicest looking GSD I've seen.


RBark said:


>


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