# Ok I'm confused about choker chains/showing



## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

I dont show, I have NO idea about showing but it does interest me.

What I dont understand is all the pics with dogs at what I'm gathering is a 'show stance' and they have their owner/handler holding their collar really high whilst the camera goes 'click', it APPEARS to be a choker type collar and the dog LOOKS like it being yanked but you can see by the dog - its not. In fact, the dogs all look calm and content.

So..................why? :help: Before any people that show their dogs think I'm attacking them/show dogs/choker chains............please understand I'm not. I just dont understand it and Google is so NOT my best friend as Ive spent ages looking for it.

So show people - please explain it to me! :wave: why choker chains? Do they work better? And are they in fact chokers? Or a special type of show collar?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

In conformation, they are normally using slip leads which act like "choke collars." They are high up to get the dog into the best possible position to show off the dog. Nearly everyone uses them. They take up very little space on the dog, so the judge sees more dog and less collar.

In obedience, a number of people show in choke collars. Many do not train in them. I train leashless, so the collar makes no difference. In the ring, my dog wears a choke collar.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

trainingjunkie said "judge sees more dog and less collar" always used a tiny diamond link martingale it was pretty very light, no way meant to be functional dog was already conditioned for the ring. Same when people stack their dogs and want to draw more attention to head and neck area in the way they choose to stack and handle them.. Dogs are already conditioned.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Most people use slip leads. You see a lot of slip leads in agility too, particularly in the venues where you have to run the dog collarless. But agility folk tend to use big braided fleece ones that can double as a tug. 

But yeah, you want something small and not distracting that you can slip on and off very easily. We used nylon slip leads for our little dogs in conformation. They weren't really much thicker than a piece of twine. Just google show lead and you'll see a lot of the different styles.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

There is also the "Resco" brand of collar. That's what I used when I did conformation. It really doesn't have any choke action at all.

Collars are usually pulled high up, sometimes to gain a little more control of the dog while moving, but often just to elongate the neckline or properly display the dog's topline for stationary photo op's and such. Dogs look more sophisticated and debonair with their heads held high, rather than droopy and sort of 'hangdog-ish'.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I show in a chain. Not everybody does, there are different styles of leashes, but for young and squirrely dogs (I'm looking at you, Watson) it provides a lot of control and keeps your dog from bouncing all over the place. 

Ideally, they are there to show off the dog and not get in the way (thin collars don't get the way of the dog's neck line) and provide communication (slight tension to slow down, or lift the head, for example). My dog isn't that well trained, so he will dart off and cause the collar to tighten, but the point of the collar is not for leash pops or correcting the dog.

Also, not all breeds are stacked using the collar to hold up the head. Traditionally in spaniels, at least Welsh, you would actually take the collar off to stack the dog and hold his head around the jowl/jaw area. Shows don't usually give you enough time to take collars on and off, but they are still held by the head in most cases, instead of by the collar as in other breeds. It's just tradition really and how people think the dog looks the best for the judge.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

For my dogs I use the snake chains and thin leather leads, it is just what I have always used and prefer. For the spaniels we either use a resco lead or nylon collars and leads. I don't really like martingales but I know others do, and for certain breeds it is the better choice. I like the braided, beaded kangaroo leather slip or clip leashes as well, but they have to have a strong core or they can snap with a strong dog. 

And elrohwen is right, most spaniel breeds are not shown by holding the collar, they are head breeds and should be held by their head. Same with bulldogs, I never hold the collar unless I absolutely must, bulldogs are a head breed as well. 

My show leads and collars are actually on their way to a show right now lol, the dogs and myself are going up later.

I guess this is what you are referring to: (me holding the collar up)










That is to show the arch in her neck, I am not choking her, she is perfectly content and is just itching for a chance to go get the squeaky toy that was thrown. You can barely see the collar like it is suppose to be.


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

Ahhhhhh now it all makes sense. Thanks everyone! 

Chaosisaweim - she is gorgeous. Simply beautiful.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

voodookitten said:


> Ahhhhhh now it all makes sense. Thanks everyone!
> 
> Chaosisaweim - she is gorgeous. Simply beautiful.


Thanks, she is an awesome girl.


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ah, I hold the lead up to show the dog better. It shows the neck a lot better and the dog's angles. I personally don't do it often on shows, I just teach the dog how to stand properly, but while taking pictures of the dog I often hold the collar up so it doesn't move. It does not harm the dog, though. 










As you can hopefully see, the dog doesn't mind this at all. It's not hurting or anything.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Like others have said, it's so the judge can see the dog's neck, rather than a collar. I can say absolutely that it really, really doesn't bother the dog. I can also say that if I pull a collar up behind Jack of Frost's ears and hold the leash at a near vertical angle, I get a really pretty trot, so I'm quite sure there's a training element in play. (And with the RT, honestly, I need to get them on martingale collars, because frankly their necks are as big around as their heads, or nearly so, and the collars ride really high ANYWAY.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think anyone can say that it absolutely isn't uncomfortable for them (it looks very uncomfortable!), but I'm sure they can be conditioned to not mind it too much. Like high heels. . .I won't wear them. I think they're torture. Other women say they're not bad, comfy even! But they've conditioned themselves to not mind them, or even like them. If you did that ^^ to a dog who hasn't been conditioned to be OK with it, I'm sure you'd see that it is at least somewhat uncomfortable.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you've ever actually walked dogs on a show lead (I have, helping out with papillons and German Shepherds ringside, and in handling class), you'll realize that the handlers are not pulling up hard on the leash. (Some do, but it makes the dog look unnatural when it's going around the ring; you can tell the handler is lifting it up a little.) When you're showing, you want the leash straight up and down so that it doesn't flop around and distract (or distract FROM) the dog. There's a special way to hold the leash when showing.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I don't think anyone can say that it absolutely isn't uncomfortable for them (it looks very uncomfortable!), but I'm sure they can be conditioned to not mind it too much. Like high heels. . .I won't wear them. I think they're torture. Other women say they're not bad, comfy even! But they've conditioned themselves to not mind them, or even like them. If you did that ^^ to a dog who hasn't been conditioned to be OK with it, I'm sure you'd see that it is at least somewhat uncomfortable.


I do sort of agree with this. Some of it is training, for the dog to stand correctly without needing to be helped into the position too much. But I can say that for Watson, a pretty untrained show dog who is also young and highly impulsive, the choke chain is a bit aversive. I don't actually correct with it, but he will lunge off to see another dog and hit the end of the leash and I know it's uncomfortable for him. This is the "control" part, because sort of like a prong, it provides control just by being there because he doesn't want to run into the end of it. Obviously, with well trained dogs this isn't really an issue, and the dog isn't lunging to the end of the leash, but for young dogs it does seem to be part of the training, IME. 

When we're actually in the ring, the leash plays a very small role though. Watson happens to be very good at gaiting (I have seen far better trained puppies do much worse at gaiting than him, so I think this is his one talent in life) and I don't correct or do much of anything except hold the leash still. While stacking, I hold his head and not the leash, so again it doesn't play a role. It does provide control when he's standing on his own, as he's much less likely to try something nutty while on the chain.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Gorgeous picture of the Weim! That sort of neck extension/arch can only be obtained with a "choker" type collar...doesn't have to necessarily be a chain collar (can be nylon/resco, kanagroo...etc. as others have said). Generally, it does have to be very thin in order to, as others have said, to become invisible. This has the "potential" to be very painful for the dog, depending upon how that sort of lead is used, however, dogs that are groomed very young for the show ring understand this sort of lead, understand that very little effort on the part of the human on the lead can cause pain, but even that is rarely necessary...people that have dogs that can obtain that gorgeous weim picture, simply gently raise their dogs to be cooperative in general. I love the high heels analogy. For sure, I don't think it is necessarily COMFORTABLE for the dog to have that lead as tight as it needs to be to get that Weim picture, but the dogs are used to it, and it literally only lasts seconds...the time it takes to get a picture, or the time it takes for the judge to look at your dog. 

Yes there may be bad handlers or bad owners out there that I have seen use this type of lead viciously, but that is not the norm (at least I hope it isn't). For sure some breeds don't need this sort of exaggeration. Showing the neck/shoulder smoothness doesn't require such a dramatic use of the lead. I happen to own a breed which requires similar handling to the beautiful Weim shown, so I understand it, and don't have a problem with it. I use a nylon collar with a resco lead (much easier on the hands). Even though I have a large, powerful breed, I've never felt the need to use a chain. 

Its a great question.

Shara


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> If you've ever actually walked dogs on a show lead (I have, helping out with papillons and German Shepherds ringside, and in handling class), you'll realize that the handlers are not pulling up hard on the leash. (Some do, but it makes the dog look unnatural when it's going around the ring; you can tell the handler is lifting it up a little.) When you're showing, you want the leash straight up and down so that it doesn't flop around and distract (or distract FROM) the dog. There's a special way to hold the leash when showing.


And proper leash handling also depends on breed, in Aussies we often show with either the leash like you described or we show with our hand down and the leash loose.


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