# An Opinion on Orijen



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Just found this and thought it was a pretty interesting read:
http://desertwindhounds.com/2010/11...-making-rules-if-im-just-going-to-break-them/


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

WOW LWO! You answered my question!!!!! I have been searching for an answer for months for why my dogs nails have been falling off!!!! (Lazy me I was feeding puppy formula, mixed with toppers to all my dogs, and the young dogs ages 1 and 2 arent affect, they are truly giant breeds and actively growing- but the almost 5 year old is having this issue, I do think its the high calcium issues, luckily I switched off of puppy formula about a month ago now, so it should be correcting itself)...

sorry not about Orijjen at all, but that article is really useful....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think she said the nails coming off was due to zinc deficiency, not the calcium thing. . .

I know everyone always said that Orijen was high in calcium but I don't think I've ever seen the numbers laid out so clearly. Very interesting.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I think she said the nails coming off was due to zinc deficiency, not the calcium thing. . .
> 
> I know everyone always said that Orijen was high in calcium but I don't think I've ever seen the numbers laid out so clearly. Very interesting.


Yes but read further, the high calcium (probably d/t the 3 different kinds of puppy formula I was feeding, I just switched completely to adult formulas- Merricks and TOTW, and starting Solid Gold Barking at the Moon, got an $18 off coupon) throws off the zinc absorption, which is probably what happened, now I am worried about vitamin E imbalance as Layla is getting 6 caps a day of the omega 3 supplement (which almost killed a 150lb mastiff at 8 caps a day, and Layla is down to about 70 lbs these days)....


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I wonder if that explains why so many people report their dogs got diarrhea on Orijen? I've never fed it because it's ludicrously expensive when I can get grain free, high protein with named meats in half a dozen brands for 1/3 to 1/2 the price.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

I wonder if the same things apply to acana?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Yes they do. All premium kibbles have the same flawed formulas. I was horrified to see how much calcium and phosphorus I had been feeding my dogs for years back when I figured this out in 2007. Was much worse then. Most companies don't post all the essential nutrient levels of the foods however.

Even lower ash ones like Dr. Tim Kinesis are too high in calcium and all that. Max would eat about 600 calories or about 150 grams and get 1500mg of calcium where he needs 1000mg, 1050mg phosphorus where he needs 800mg and he would only be getting 40 grams of protein where he does much better on 55 or so. The micro minerals are not listed on the site, don't know if they work out okay or not. 

Acana Pork and Butternut Squash? Max would need 180 grams for his 600 calories a day and get 3420mg of calcium, 340% of his requirement, 2160mg of phosphorus, 270% of his requirement, iron and zinc are in equal amounts and he would get 160% the zinc and a whopping 330% of his iron requirement and all that only includes 40 grams of protein.

The part the blogger apparently didn't know or mention was that some excessive mineral content is removed by the action of some part of the various plant products which I certainly don't understand at all. Sterols maybe? More sodium is added so the dog will drink water.

A few years ago the zinc/iron thing was a whole lot worse though. It takes a while for the companies to implement the new NRC numbers apparently. Copper isn't posted even on Acana's excellent analysis and it is critical to get that just right. It needs to be 10% of the zinc content but not a whole lot more than that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> I wonder if that explains why so many people report their dogs got diarrhea on Orijen? I've never fed it because it's ludicrously expensive when I can get grain free, high protein with named meats in half a dozen brands for 1/3 to 1/2 the price.


This, for all the same reasons.


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

Very interesting article. Now that I'm scanning through any nutrient analyses I can find for dog foods, I haven't found a single one with an appropriate zinc to iron ratio! 

I miss the days when I didn't know anything about dog food. This is giving me anxiety.


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

Kathyy said:


> Copper isn't posted even on Acana's excellent analysis and it is critical to get that just right. It needs to be 10% of the zinc content but not a whole lot more than that.


Maybe you missed it, it says Copper 12mg/kg.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

bowie said:


> Very interesting article. Now that I'm scanning through any nutrient analyses I can find for dog foods, I haven't found a single one with an appropriate zinc to iron ratio!
> 
> I miss the days when I didn't know anything about dog food. This is giving me anxiety.


Lmao I know. I'm the same.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Interesting! Feeding Orijen gave frequent diarrhea with the dogs, TONS of water drinking, and a scaly, dry nose (was putting Vit. E on the noses). I got the same results from Acana, Nature's Logic and Nature's Variety. (I keep notebooks with all the foods I feed and things I notice with the dogs' condition.)

This article makes complete sense to me. Everyone has been lured into thinking Orijen is the best dog food out there, and in the long run, it can do harm! 

I hate to even mention the foods I'm feeding now (as general internet knowledge calls them 'garbage'), but everyone's health has improved, their energy, coats, skin is better and so is their digestion. 

Everyone is all about pretty ingredient panels... marketing within the pet food companies is GOOD at making the panel look like something WE would eat... however the mineral levels are less than ideal. It's time to start pressing these companies to make better foods, NUTRIENT wise. 
JMO


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

BernerMax said:


> Yes but read further, the high calcium (probably d/t the 3 different kinds of puppy formula I was feeding, I just switched completely to adult formulas- Merricks and TOTW, and starting Solid Gold Barking at the Moon, got an $18 off coupon) throws off the zinc absorption, which is probably what happened, now I am worried about vitamin E imbalance as Layla is getting 6 caps a day of the omega 3 supplement (which almost killed a 150lb mastiff at 8 caps a day, and Layla is down to about 70 lbs these days)....


I know for sure that TOTW are all Puppy formula (AKA All Life stages) I don't know of a TOTW formula that isn't ALS (same thing as puppy formula)


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Keechak said:


> I know for sure that TOTW are all Puppy formula (AKA All Life stages) I don't know of a TOTW formula that isn't ALS (same thing as puppy formula)


Thats interesting, I did not realize that, we have only had one 30lb bag of TOTW in play though, and mixed with Merricks adult maintenance formula, her toenail issue started back in January ....


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## Kyle071785 (Nov 28, 2013)

bowie said:


> Very interesting article. Now that I'm scanning through any nutrient analyses I can find for dog foods, I haven't found a single one with an appropriate zinc to iron ratio!
> 
> I miss the days when I didn't know anything about dog food. This is giving me anxiety.


My dad says the same thing in terms of all the info about dog food now (in regards to my pup, Jax). He stated that back in the day, one would just walk into a grocery store and grab whichever brand was on the shelf with no real idea of the ingredients. All the family dogs seemed to live long and overall healthy lives with minimal vet visits. Now, all these "better" foods are getting much higher priced and I seem to notice more random health problems creeping up over time


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## Kyle071785 (Nov 28, 2013)

On topic...
I have Jax on Orijen Puppy at the moment and am in the process of moving him off it but am unsure of a suitable replacement.

The breeder had him on Kirklands formula when we got him (up to 8 weeks)
I had him on Wellness Puppy from 2 months to just under 4 months as he wasn't doing well on it (incredibly gassy)
Now on Orijen from months 4 to 8

At the start of month 7 he got very soft bowel movements for no apparent reason (no bug found via fecal testing) and has been somewhat lethargic (excessive panting). He has also been itching which the vet states can be seasonal (but its been going on too long to just be seasonal IMO)

Something is up so I'm willing to try something else. I just don't know where to start. He'll probably thrive on Kibbles and Bits


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

BernerMax said:


> Thats interesting, I did not realize that, we have only had one 30lb bag of TOTW in play though, and mixed with Merricks adult maintenance formula, her toenail issue started back in January ....


Ya the All Life Stages and Puppy Food are different ways to label the same AAFCO formula. The Puppy/ALS formulas have stricter dietary requirements than adult formulas.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kyle071785 said:


> On topic...
> I have Jax on Orijen Puppy at the moment and am in the process of moving him off it but am unsure of a suitable replacement.
> 
> The breeder had him on Kirklands formula when we got him (up to 8 weeks)
> ...


Why not go back to the Kirkland? If you don't have a Costco membership, Diamond Naturals is a comparable food. 

I don't recommend Kibbles 'n' Bits because of the sugar, propylene glycol, and food coloring. Also because the actual meat content is minuscule.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Kyle071785 said:


> My dad says the same thing in terms of all the info about dog food now (in regards to my pup, Jax). He stated that back in the day, one would just walk into a grocery store and grab whichever brand was on the shelf with no real idea of the ingredients. All the family dogs seemed to live long and overall healthy lives with minimal vet visits. Now, all these "better" foods are getting much higher priced and I seem to notice more random health problems creeping up over time


I kind of doubt there actually are more health problems. I think there are more health problems being diagnosed.

When I was a kid, most people vaccinated their dogs and that was pretty much it. You could get treatment for cancer or glaucoma, but you had to be near a big city and it was very expensive. People just didn't spend the kind of money on their pets that they do now. There weren't a ton of different foods and treats, there weren't 10,000 different collars to choose from, clothes for dogs weren't really a thing (my mom had to make clothes herself for her dogs when they got old and unable to deal with cold), etc., etc.

Today, people buy health insurance for their dogs. People expect to be able to treat cancer. People test for thyroid conditions and titer for antibodies. It's a whole new world out there in terms of pet care.


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## Kyle071785 (Nov 28, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Why not go back to the Kirkland? If you don't have a Costco membership, Diamond Naturals is a comparable food.
> 
> I don't recommend Kibbles 'n' Bits because of the sugar, propylene glycol, and food coloring. Also because the actual meat content is minuscule.


I was just joking about the K&B 

I might go back to Kirkland...I just didn't have a Costco membership at the time so I had to switch him from the day we got him (with only a small bit of food to help with the transition provided from the breeder).

I'm looking into a few different foods now and may likely flip around in a rotation for a while and see what works best for him in the long run


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Keechak said:


> Ya the All Life Stages and Puppy Food are different ways to label the same AAFCO formula. The Puppy/ALS formulas have stricter dietary requirements than adult formulas.


I just bought a bag of pacific stream and it said aafco for maintenance. Wonder if they changed it? I thought they were all ALS too


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

fourdogs said:


> Interesting! Feeding Orijen gave frequent diarrhea with the dogs, TONS of water drinking, and a scaly, dry nose (was putting Vit. E on the noses). I got the same results from Acana, Nature's Logic and Nature's Variety. (I keep notebooks with all the foods I feed and things I notice with the dogs' condition.)
> 
> This article makes complete sense to me. Everyone has been lured into thinking Orijen is the best dog food out there, and in the long run, it can do harm!
> 
> ...


Do you know the zinc:iron:copper ration in the food you are giving? 

Do you know how much calcium and phosphorus is going into your dogs?

Max's calcium and phosphorus would be about right on some of those corn filled kibbles only because he gets fewer calories than a dog his size is supposed to need and I have no idea whether the other minerals are right or not, they are just somewhere within AAFCO's standards.

They are improving the numbers slowly but surely. AAFCO is changing the standards and the companies are changing formulas as well. I bet one of the reasons we started seeing all the peas and beans is because they are trying to cut back on high mineral content meat meals and staying away from trigger words like soy and corn. My first look at one particular kibble years ago showed calcium would be 360% for one of my dogs and that same kibble was more like 150% 5 years ago. Company doesn't post any but the basics on the website these days. Same lousy protein level and I don't think the micro mineral levels were okay yet.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Rescued said:


> I just bought a bag of pacific stream and it said aafco for maintenance. Wonder if they changed it? I thought they were all ALS too
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I believe TOTW used to have all of their formulas be for ALS but they changed them sometime last year. Now most of the adult formulas are for maintenance only with the exception of the southwest canyon and sierra mountain lines being ALS. The two puppy formulas are ALS as well.


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## Angiemas (9 mo ago)

Merrick and Acana made my dog very sick


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

This thread is over eight years old, so I'm closing it to further replies. Feel free to start a new thread of your own, or join in any of our current discussions!


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