# A "Mini Rottie"?



## Papa Deuce (Mar 26, 2007)

So there is a woman at my training class who says her dog is a Mini Rottie.... *but there is no Rottie in the dog....* It LOOKS a lot like a mini rottie, but she says the dog is doberman / pekinese.... and she says that this dog is now being bred regularly to try and establish a new breed. 

OK, but THIS dog looks like a Rottie, but I bet 50% of them don't. This dog is about 9 months old and weighs about 20 pounds or so. 

Is this what's happening?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I haven't heard of them. . .I don't doubt that the designer dog breeders have done it, though. But I don't know how common that mix is. 

And really, Dobe/Peke? That seems odd for a small dog mix. If I were trying to get a black-and-tan heavy-set dog I would use a Manchester Terrier or Min Pin, not a full size Dobe. I wonder if the breeder really is doing that or if the lady is mistaken.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Pictures of this Pocket Rottie...
Thanx


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## Papa Deuce (Mar 26, 2007)

Roloni said:


> Pictures of this Pocket Rottie...
> Thanx


Not going to happen. I only see this dog at training class.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So I Googled "mini Rottweiler" and it showed me Carlin Pinschers. . .a mix between a Pug and a Min Pin. Which makes way more sense than a Dobe/Peke. But that's all I could find on the subject.


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## Papa Deuce (Mar 26, 2007)

Roloni said:


> Pictures of this Pocket Rottie...
> Thanx


OK, I thought about this. I will ask the lady at class if I can take a picture of her dog, But that's all I can promise.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

I have a dark brindle Chihuahua and lots of people ask me where I got my 'mini staffy.'


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Tell her that if she truly wants to create a miniature Rottie she actually has to own a Rottie and begin breeding the smaller ones to "downsize" the breed but still maintain "the breed" itself. What she is creating is a Peek-a-man or something like that. Maybe a Dobenese?


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Inga said:


> Tell her that if she truly wants to create a miniature Rottie she actually has to own a Rottie and begin breeding the smaller ones to "downsize" the breed but still maintain "the breed" itself. What she is creating is a Peek-a-man or something like that. Maybe a Dobenese?


Dobenese sounds like a type of spaghetti. 

How do people not get if you cross two breeds and the pups look like one parent but smaller they are NOT purebred? Oodles don't get called 'extra fluffy Chihuahuas' they get get called Pomchis or something.


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## Zoey's Mommy (Mar 3, 2012)

I found some stuff on Yahoo suggesting they are a Rottie/Staffie Mix.... to that I say, why not buy a mule, lol!

(I say that with the love that only a Rottie and Staffie Mom can have.)


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## Discodobe (Jan 5, 2012)

"mini rottie" = some greeders marketing scam to make a quick buck. 

I've seen a few websites advertising these, some have pug mixes... They aren't a miniature rottweiler though.


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## Emily1989 (Jul 12, 2012)

I know this is a old thread but I just wanted to let you know that a Carlin Pinscher is a mix between a pug and a miniature pinscher. There are people trying to make a new breed and are breeding 2nd 3rd and 4th generation Carlin Pinschers. These dogs are very close to becoming a recognized new breed. Some people call them mini rottweilers because they resemble them in some ways but they are NOT mini rottweilers as they have no rottie blood lines. The breeders are very careful what dogs they breed them with and the breeders have developed a standard they go by for temperament and build. I know a breeder and she is actually into her 5th generation and has told me it is very hard to find more that she can use to take the breed further. All her puppies look the same and have the same temperaments just like you would find in a purebred dog.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

What organizations are close to recognizing them? Can you point us in the direction of a parent club with a breed standard and regulations for breeding?


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## Emily1989 (Jul 12, 2012)

I am not a breeder of Carlin Pinschers but I have been told multiple times that the AKC is getting close to recognizing them. I do not know everything on this breed. I do know that the people who breed these dogs work closely together and most know all of the breeders that are seriously trying to establish a new breed. These people are the ones who have gotten together and decided what things they wanted to keep in the dogs and what they wanted to develop. Like I said I do not know everything about these dogs, I was just trying to give some insight on what these people are doing. Also the breeder I know sells her puppies for a small amount and barely breaks even. I agree that some people are trying to breed these dogs just to make some money but I also know of people devoted to making this a real breed and work very hard at it.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

When i did a quick google search I found nothing on a parent club.


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## Emily1989 (Jul 12, 2012)

There is no parent club yet. I know they can be registered with the UABR but I don't know much about that registry I am doing a little research on this.


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## Emily1989 (Jul 12, 2012)

The Carlin Pinscher is a new and developing dog breed and it is a cross between a Miniature Pinscher and a Pug with some other breeds later mixed in like the Boxer. "Pinscher' in German means 'Terrier' and 'Carlin' is the name used for Pugs in some countries so the name 'Carlin Pinscher' means 'Terrier Pug'. The breed was developed accidently. In 1992, French breeder Isabeau Morgan and Hawaiian breeder Kawika Buenafe left their co-owned champion Red Pinscher with a Black Pug. On their return, they found out the two dogs had bred and the resultant three puppies resembled small Rottweiler. One of these puppies was named Snooz and it became very popular as people wanted more dogs like Snooz. With so much demand for these unplanned dogs, the breeder friends decided to go ahead with producing more puppies like Snooz. It was decided that same dog breeds will be used to produce the new puppies. Female Pugs were used as they are accustomed to having large headed dogs. Isabeau Morgan, Kawiki Buenafe, Grant Milionta, and others are now working with these dogs to establish a line of Carlin Pinschers which can be applied to the major Kennel Clubs. This small dog has height between 11 to 13 inches and weighs between 12-14 lbs. Similar in appearance to a Rottweiler, the dog has short muzzle and doomed skull with Pug like thick legs and strong body. This breed is still in the process of developing and it will be applied for registration after development is complete.

I found this doing a quick google search.

http://www.greatdogsite.com/breeds/details/Carlin_Pinscher/
http://www.americancanineregistry.com/pages/registration
http://www.pethealthandcare.com/dog-breed/carlin-pinscher.html
http://www.petyourdog.com/breed/Carlin_Pinscher This is the site I found this info.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It sounds like they might be doing things better than most 'designer mix' breeders and are, in fact, trying to establish a real breed based on what I read (there's a difference, for instance between Charlin Pinchers and 'Muggins', which are Min-Pin/Pugs, in that Carlin Pinschers have other breeds added to the mix, and are bred consistent and true, instead of just continually crossing two purebreds). 

That said - They're reallllly new, and I will be surprised if they have AKC recognition in the next several DECADES. MAS started in 1968. They are just now foundation stock status with the AKC. They've got a _long_ way to go before being recognized as a breed. That doesn't necessarily mean anything bad; new breeds are being established, and will likely always be so. But they're not *close* to recognition by reputable kennel clubs, either.


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## Emily1989 (Jul 12, 2012)

Thank you, like i previously stated, I do not know much about this as I am not into breeding them but I do recognize that the breeders are trying very hard to make a true recognized breed with them. One breeder I have seen has crossed boxer into her lines. I do not think it is ok for people to let there dogs mate with another of any breed just because they are cute and want to make a buck. They are living breathing beings and deserve to be carefully planned so that they live healthy happy lives. (I have owned many mutts in growing up and love them just as much as the purebreds.)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

CptJack said:


> It sounds like they might be doing things better than most 'designer mix' breeders and are, in fact, trying to establish a real breed based on what I read (there's a difference, for instance between Charlin Pinchers and 'Muggins', which are Min-Pin/Pugs, in that Carlin Pinschers have other breeds added to the mix, and are bred consistent and true, instead of just continually crossing two purebreds).
> 
> That said - They're reallllly new, and I will be surprised if they have AKC recognition in the next several DECADES. MAS started in 1968. They are just now foundation stock status with the AKC. They've got a _long_ way to go before being recognized as a breed. That doesn't necessarily mean anything bad; new breeds are being established, and will likely always be so. But they're not *close* to recognition by reputable kennel clubs, either.


MAS is in Misc. as of June of last year. 

But I have to agree on the rest. No parent club means no AKC recognition, but that is only one requirement. They are not close to AKC recognition, probably not even close to FSS. Everything I have ever read says breed in development not actual breed, two different things there.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

So what purpose do they fill that no other breed does?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> MAS is in Misc. as of June of last year.
> 
> But I have to agree on the rest. No parent club means no AKC recognition, but that is only one requirement. They are not close to AKC recognition, probably not even close to FSS. Everything I have ever read says breed in development not actual breed, two different things there.


Whoops, looks like I got a bit behind on my info. Sorry about that, I'm going to blame this link. (Not arguing, just explaining why double checking myself online sent me awry.- I read the FSS and stopped) And thanks for the info!

And yes. Much better said. Breed in development, not actual breed. (Or designer 'hybrid'.)


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## Emily1989 (Jul 12, 2012)

I do not have the answer to what purpose they fill. I also have to say that I worded one of my posts wrong and what I mean was they will hopefully one day be recognized as a breed. They are closer than some of the other hybrids and designer breeds is really all I was trying to say. lol sorry for the confusion. I also would like to say that as for a purpose, I believe there are a lot of "lap dogs" out there that really only serve that purpose, to be cute and cuddly.

Also there are a large amount of dogs that were bred to hunt but most are now just lap dogs hanging out in the house all day with the family. This is really just because they are no longer needed for these jobs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> So what purpose do they fill that no other breed does?


I'll be honest: I don't see this as an absolute necessity.

What does a GSP do that an English Pointer doesn't? What does a lab do that a golden can't? what's a Rat Terrier do that a Jack Russel can't? What's a pomeranian do that a yorkie can't? What does a Border Collie do that an Australian Shepherd can't? What's an Irish Setter do that an English Setter can't? That's not meant to be contradictory, but - at some point, those minor differences in appearance, size, grooming, or METHOD of doing their job, even if it's just companionship, do make a difference. Sometimes, big ones. If people are health testing, passionate about the breed, working to establish a standard and breed within it, and responsibly homing their puppies and maintain control of them/ keep them out of shelters, I don't see much difference between breeding to develop Carlin Pinschers, and breeding Pugs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree, it sounds like they actually want to develop a new breed rather than just keep mixing purebred pugs and min-pins forever... but I doubt they are anywhere near AKC recognition.

I'll compare them to a newer breed I'm familiar with. The Alaskan Klee Kai is a real breed, recognized by the United Kennel Club and the American Rare Breed association, with a breed club, a code of ethics, closed stud book, etc. But they're still not close to becoming AKC recognized. There needs to be a sizable population of a breed before AKC will consider recognizing it... and even though AKK numbers are growing, there aren't enough of them out there. 

Also, if a breed in development doesn't even have a breed club, they're not close.



> AKC Foundation Stock Service
> 
> *Breeds that wish to begin the road to full AKC recognition must be recorded with an accepted registry (maintained by the national breed club or the optional AKC Foundation Stock Service).* The AKC Foundation Stock Service (FSS) is the AKC's recording service for purebred breeds that are not yet eligible for AKC registration. Currently, there are 65 breeds in the FSS, but acceptance into the program does not ultimately guarantee full AKC registration.
> 
> ...


From here (emphasis mine). And note that even if a breed becomes eligible to compete in the Miscellaneous class, that's still not the same thing as being fully AKC recognized. From here:



> The breeds currently eligible to participate in the Miscellaneous Class are still enrolled in the AKC Foundation Stock Service®. FSS® enrollment is maintained until the AKC Board of Directors accepts the breed for regular status.
> 
> Authorities acknowledge that throughout the world there are several hundred distinct breeds of purebred dogs, not all of which are AKC recognized breeds. Those officially recognized for AKC registration appear in the Stud Book of the American Kennel Club. The AKC provides for a regular path of development for a new breed, which may result in that breed’s full recognition and appearance in the official Stud Book as an AKC recognized breed.
> 
> ...


It is a long process!


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## Emily1989 (Jul 12, 2012)

Thanks for the info on that. I didnt know that but also never looked it up.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> From here (emphasis mine). And note that even if a breed becomes eligible to compete in the Miscellaneous class, that's still not the same thing as being fully AKC recognized. From here:


I had to go sort myself out on that front, because I was confused. Yes. Not fully recognized. I should know this since RT are there, but obviously I don't. Jack's a UKC dog, and I never really pursued what was going on with the AKC as far as I should have. Clearly, I'm easily confused.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I'll be honest: I don't see this as an absolute necessity.
> 
> What does a GSP do that an English Pointer doesn't? What does a lab do that a golden can't? what's a Rat Terrier do that a Jack Russel can't? What's a pomeranian do that a yorkie can't? What does a Border Collie do that an Australian Shepherd can't? What's an Irish Setter do that an English Setter can't? That's not meant to be contradictory, but - at some point, those minor differences in appearance, size, grooming, or METHOD of doing their job, even if it's just companionship, do make a difference. Sometimes, big ones. If people are health testing, passionate about the breed, working to establish a standard and breed within it, and responsibly homing their puppies and maintain control of them/ keep them out of shelters, I don't see much difference between breeding to develop Carlin Pinschers, and breeding Pugs.


Geographic location for one.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> Geographic location for one.


That's a little pedantic... there are any number of breeds that originated solely in England, for example (what I'm most familiar with) that all do the same basic job. How many types of pointers are there? Or terriers? I mean, Scotland, even the Highlands, isn't that far from Yorkshire.... not to mention a lot of currently-recognized breeds have been developed since the turn of the century and the world has only been getting smaller since then.

The American Eskimo Dog Club of America has only been around since 1985... even though the breed has been around since at least the turn of the century. It took 8 years for them to be recognized by the AKC as breeding stock (1993), and another 2 to become fully recognized (1995). So just because there is no official breed club doesn't necessarily mean there aren't people who aren't working towards a specific goal. And also take the AKC with a grain of salt, since they only recognize about 1/3rd of breeds that exist.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> The American Eskimo Dog Club of America has only been around since 1985... even though the breed has been around since at least the turn of the century. It took 8 years for them to be recognized by the AKC as breeding stock (1993), and another 2 to become fully recognized (1995). So just because there is no official breed club doesn't necessarily mean there aren't people who aren't working towards a specific goal. And also take the AKC with a grain of salt, since they only recognize about 1/3rd of breeds that exist.


Pretty much this. The AKC is not the end all, be all, of breed recognition. Rat Terriers were HUGELY popular in 1920. There have been private registries for ages. They're now fully recognized in the UKC, and have a foot in with the AKC. This is all newish stuff, though (UKC in 1999). 

As for breed differentiation. Jack, Rat, and Fox Terriers all look about the same and perform about the same function. Two of them come in wire haired, and there are certainly differences that make them possible to be told apart based on that, but they're close. Add in all the purely wire haired terriers who are/were ratters, and we're up to HOW MANY dogs with a history of being really good ratters/farm dogs? Just because they do the same job, though, doesn't mean they're all just alike. There ARE differences in how they perform those jobs, the way they look, and their personalities. 

"Serve a unique function" just doesn't seem like a viable tool to determine if a dog breed should be developed or exist. Even down to the AKK? what unique function do they serve? We don't create dogs to fill roles that can not be filled by existing breeds. We create breeds when what we want isn't already out there, in an existing breed. Sometimes down to very minor tweaking. 

And personally, I'd rather see a new breed that are like Rotts, only much smaller, than someone trying to breed Rotts down to 20lbs. It's certainly going to be healthier that way.

Though I have a problem with dogs being 'sized down', that is purely irrational and based on my own preference for bigger RT and seeing the trend leaning toward < 10lb lap dogs. Decker's are splitting off for a reason, and I think I'm going with them.


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## beretw (Sep 25, 2012)

Papa Deuce said:


> It LOOKS a lot like a mini rottie, but she says the dog is doberman / pekinese.... and she says that this dog is now being bred regularly to try and establish a new breed.


REALLY?! This is happening regularly?! Dobe/Peke? Really?! Whyyyyy?! That sounds like a mess of structural problems waiting to happen.

This just sounds like another designer mutt trend. 

If there is a responsible group trying to develop and recognize a new breed, Google is passing them over for pages and pages of Hoobly ads. Always a good sign...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

beretw said:


> REALLY?! This is happening regularly?! Dobe/Peke? Really?! Whyyyyy?! That sounds like a mess of structural problems waiting to happen.
> 
> This just sounds like another designer mutt trend.
> 
> If there is a responsible group trying to develop and recognize a new breed, Google is passing them over for pages and pages of Hoobly ads. Always a good sign...


The actual Carlin Pinschers are not just two breeds being bred to each other, much less a dobe and a peke. I believe two of the foundation dogs were pugs and min-pins, but it's reached the point where other dogs are being bred in. I'll see if I can get back to the links I originally looked at, once I'm off the ipad and back on the computer with access to my browsing history.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

beretw said:


> REALLY?! This is happening regularly?! Dobe/Peke? Really?!


As Cpt. Jack pointed out, the Carlin is a bit different, and is trying to start a new breed (with standards). That could be what the dog OP is talking about is (my reasoning: people are stupid, the original owner is a person). Or it might actually be a Dobe/Peke. To which I agree with this. But then again, I cannot imagine why anyone would possibly want a Peke ever, let alone breed it with something.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> But then again, I cannot imagine why anyone would possibly want a Peke ever, let alone breed it with something.


I am so torn around these issues. On one hand, I truly do understand that every dog has people who are passionate about them, their history, and so on. Pekes, in particular, have a long, really rich, history. I've known some and they were, actually, awesome little dogs.

But then I turn around and look at them, and Bostons, and Pugs, and Bulldogs, and other breeds whose form now prevents them have ANY function, up to and including breathing, and I just... can't. They're not even working to breed more snout, for instance, in, because flat faces are what's winning in the ring and seen as desirable. REALLY flat faces. And it's not that I think it's unattractive, it's that I LIVE with a dog with a smashed in face, and as many other problems as she has... that lack of a muzzle really, seriously, negatively impacts her quality of life.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I am so torn around these issues. On one hand, I truly do understand that every dog has people who are passionate about them, their history, and so on. Pekes, in particular, have a long, really rich, history. I've known some and they were, actually, awesome little dogs.
> 
> But then I turn around and look at them, and Bostons, and Pugs, and Bulldogs, and other breeds *whose form now prevents them have ANY function, *up to and including breathing, and I just... can't. They're not even working to breed more snout, for instance, in, because flat faces are what's winning in the ring and seen as desirable. REALLY flat faces. And it's not that I think it's unattractive, it's that I LIVE with a dog with a smashed in face, and as many other problems as she has... that lack of a muzzle really, seriously, negatively impacts her quality of life.


agree so much with this,, having someone want me to talk to a breeder they are considering getting a puppy from, a GSD... Sorry I was so appauled $1,700.00 for a 140lb gsd I asked if the dogs could work, she said I dont see why not they are GSD's but I don't know any of our puppy owners are working them. I said I don't mind the limited registration but what if they turn out to be good represenitve of the breed to been shown once they pass their exrays.. She said no one had ever asked , but no they never lift the limited registration. I asked her if these were the (king/shilo) shepherds, and she paused for a very long time and said no they are old fashion GSD's and I told her no they are not. $1,700.00 bucks for a piece of meat.. How sad to take a working dog and totally disreguard everything they were designed for. totally useless at 140lbs


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> agree so much with this,, having someone want me to talk to a breeder they are considering getting a puppy from, a GSD... Sorry I was so appauled $1,700.00 for a 140lb gsd I asked if the dogs could work, she said I dont see why not they are GSD's but I don't know any of our puppy owners are working them. I said I don't mind the limited registration but what if they turn out to be good represenitve of the breed to been shown once they pass their exrays.. She said no one had ever asked , but no they never lift the limited registration. I asked her if these were the (king/shilo) shepherds, and she paused for a very long time and said no they are old fashion GSD's and I told her no they are not. $1,700.00 bucks for a piece of meat.. How sad to take a working dog and totally disreguard everything they were designed for. totally useless at 140lbs


This is a lot of what I meant by some of what I said earlier about the direction Rat Terriers are going. The breed standard has 'mini' and 'standard' written in. (13-18" and under 13"). Good luck finding the standard size, already, with a strong push toward smaller being better, and 'toy' breeders popping up, already, whose aim is dogs that weigh about 5lbs.

Their breed history is *as farm dogs, and squirrel (or rabbit, depending on geographical area) dogs*. They're not... supposed to be leggy, differently colored chis. 

Function changes with lives and lifestyles change. I get that, I do. But... Seriously? Why? 

I'd rather see a new breed created, at this point, than taking Rat Terriers, breeding runts to runts, breeding down the size and completely removing their function. I would have another Rat Terrier again in a heartbeat (well, not right now, the inn is full) if I had a chance in heck of finding a 16=18" 15-25lb dog. Anywhere. It is, apparently, not going to happen. I can go with Deckers, who are still hunting terriers being used, but those are still extremely rare and hard to find.


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