# Can you periodically feed raw food?



## NattyBoh74 (Feb 26, 2014)

My dog had been on a dry food diet. But after joining here I see raw food is beneficial to them. But I most certainly cannot afford all the time to feed him raw. Can I give me pieces here and there? Raw tracheas, beef etc? Any and all help is appreciated on this matter. Sorry if its been discussed already.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

You can definitely give raw periodically 

Just make sure not to give organs on their own because that will result in canon butt... especially for a dog who isn't used to getting raw everyday!

The most popular raw item that kibble feeders give are RMBs (raw meaty bones) since they are a great way to clean teeth and can keep your dog occupied for a while  Just make sure not to feed any weight bearing bones from large animals like cows.


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## NattyBoh74 (Feb 26, 2014)

Really? Haha nice. What all can I start with? Where should I get them from?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

My favorite raw mix-in for kibble fed dogs is chicken hearts and gizzards. Cheap, not filled with extra sodium and not too rich like organ meat to cause an upset stomach. Good source of glucosamine too. 

I like to add small amounts of beef kidney and liver sometimes too.

Chicken quarters- not the "enhanced" kind with a ton of salt- are very cheap and fun meal for dogs. Large enough that most dogs will chew on it for a while but the bones are soft enough that the risk of tooth damage is low. 

I vary between raw and kibble all the time. If I get a good deal on meat, there's raw on the menu. As long as the raw is no more than about 25% of the total daily calories, you don't have to worry much about balancing the raw diet (as in, meat/organ/bone ratios). I also feed balanced raw but if you just want to look for supermarket specials, then watch the sodium content and make sure the bones are something the dog can chew down easily (nothing so small that they don't bother to chew and nothing so hard like a cow femur that they can break a tooth)


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

NattyBoh74 said:


> Really? Haha nice. What all can I start with? Where should I get them from?


I would maybe start with chicken for now and see how your dog does  I know some people mix kibble and raw on the same way, but I suggest being extra careful at first and maybe doing one day of raw, one day of kibble, etc. Chicken quarters and chicken backs are usually a good place to start.

If you buy your meat from the grocery store, make sure it is not enhanced, as Shell has already noted 

I personally like to go to a local butcher or an ethnic grocery store since they have all sorts of bits and pieces.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Oh yeah, I love the local shops and ethnic groceries. Ask around for things like beef heart, tongue, chicken feet (more a treat than a meal), various animal internal organs and such. If you find something on special with a near expiry date, just freeze it and feed it partially defrosted later. Being partially frozen makes the dog chew more and not just swallow chunks of meat. 

Beef tracheas make good chews but are low in actual meat content so combining one with a boneless chunk of meat makes for a good meal. 

I will only feed commercial ground beef if it is cooked but even cooked ground beef is a fairly affordable protein addition (look for those sales and freeze until needed)

A raw but not meat addition is egg. Eggs are great protein and fat sources and very balanced. Crack one over the kibble and I bet the dog will go nuts for it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My dogs get some raw probably 3-4 or so days a week?


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## NattyBoh74 (Feb 26, 2014)

Alright so basically I can just give my dog a piece of raw chicken while Im cooking and its okay? Seems like a better treat than your standard dog treat, no? 
( again this is following what has been said above )

I always thought that we couldnt just give them raw food unless them were started on it a long time ago.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Snowball is kibble-fed, and gets the occassional raw meal. And the more frequent raw treat (mostly RMB). He definitely gets bits of raw whatever-we're-cooking. I'm sure there are some dogs that wouldn't be good with intermittent raw, but a lot of dogs are fine with it.


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## scwolek (Jan 30, 2014)

By the way, if not being able to afford it is the main reason, talk to the butchers! Here I can get chicken backs for about 0.50/lb and sometimes scraps for 0.20/lb which is way cheaper than high-quality kibble .


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

NattyBoh74 said:


> Alright so basically I can just give my dog a piece of raw chicken while Im cooking and its okay? Seems like a better treat than your standard dog treat, no?
> ( again this is following what has been said above )
> 
> I always thought that we couldnt just give them raw food unless them were started on it a long time ago.


Yes that is perfectly fine as long as it is not enhanced chicken 

There is a belief amongst some raw feeders that kibble and raw cannot be mixed in the same meal, and that they should be 4-6 hours apart, but there is no actual evidence that supports this. I know some dogs don't do okay with mixed raw/kibble, but other do fine. Besides that I think it's more just the myth that dogs become "vicious" when fed raw, bloody meat lol but it's not true. It's just a higher value item so they might try to guard it


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

My personal opinion is to go raw all the way, I would not mix. I think it's to big of a change for the dogs GI to go back and forth between raw and kibble. Raw and kibble are totally different...You wouldn't feed your dog two different types of kibble, so why mix kibble and raw? As someone else mentioned, try to find good deals on meat, even human quality supermarket meat is superior to high quality kibble.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> My personal opinion is to go raw all the way, I would not mix. I think it's to big of a change for the dogs GI to go back and forth between raw and kibble. Raw and kibble are totally different...You wouldn't feed your dog two different types of kibble, so why mix kibble and raw? As someone else mentioned, try to find good deals on meat, even human quality supermarket meat is superior to high quality kibble.


Lots of people feed two different kinds of kibble- or kibble and canned or kibble and dehydrated as a topper etc. Raw all the way is great but the OP says he cannot afford it and it is a time and space commitment with a large dog plus the need to balance a full raw diet takes extra planning and meat sourcing. A bad raw diet is worse than any decent kibble. 

I've never noticed any problem feeding raw sometimes and kibble sometimes. Of course, a dog with a sensitive stomach might have trouble switching between any two kinds of food but in general, since raw can be given one protein in one meal with nothing else, I think it can be fairly easy on the stomach actually. 
It lets me up the fat or protein content of a dog's diet quickly and easily if the dog has dry skin or is too thin (not just raw meat but additions in general like eggs, sardines, fish or olive oil) and feeding a hunk of meat and bone can help clean teeth and is mentally engaging for the dog.


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## Mikeincalgary (Jun 14, 2013)

We feed raw and kibble. For the raw we use a commercially prepared raw that is kibble size. We are about 80% kibble 20% raw. The raw comes in various proteins , beef, chicken, lamb, duck. We also give chicken/turkey necks a few times in the week or a drumstick.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have fed my dogs a mixed diet for a very long time. I switch kibbles often, sometimes there's multiple kibbles in the bowl in the morning. We feed a lot of dehydrated raw because we train a lot and I want decently healthy treats. My dogs are so small that often what they eat all day is just through training. We also feed raw and kibble. Summer pretty much only gets around 2-3 raw bones a week. Mia gets some 'real raw' on top of that. I'd have her on pure raw if I felt comfortable balancing it and didn't have to feed so many meals through training.

Stomach upset is super super rare with my dogs.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Shell said:


> Lots of people feed two different kinds of kibble- or kibble and canned or kibble and dehydrated as a topper etc. Raw all the way is great but the OP says he cannot afford it and it is a time and space commitment with a large dog plus the need to balance a full raw diet takes extra planning and meat sourcing. A bad raw diet is worse than any decent kibble.
> 
> I've never noticed any problem feeding raw sometimes and kibble sometimes. Of course, a dog with a sensitive stomach might have trouble switching between any two kinds of food but in general, since raw can be given one protein in one meal with nothing else, I think it can be fairly easy on the stomach actually.
> It lets me up the fat or protein content of a dog's diet quickly and easily if the dog has dry skin or is too thin (not just raw meat but additions in general like eggs, sardines, fish or olive oil) and feeding a hunk of meat and bone can help clean teeth and is mentally engaging for the dog.


Yes, some people do mix different types of kibble or kibble with raw, however just because people do it doesn't mean that it's good for the dog. Yes, a healthy dog may be able to digest mixed with no problem, but a dog with certain health issues may not. Meat is digested faster than kibble that's one reason I'm against mixing, especially in one meal. If you're lucky enough to find multiple types of kibble that agree with your dog then MAYBE mixing kibble would be fine, otherwise I don't suggest it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Yes, some people do mix different types of kibble or kibble with raw, however just because people do it doesn't mean that it's good for the dog. Yes, a healthy dog may be able to digest mixed with no problem, but a dog with certain health issues may not. Meat is digested faster than kibble that's one reason I'm against mixing, especially in one meal. If you're lucky enough to find multiple types of kibble that agree with your dog then MAYBE mixing kibble would be fine, otherwise I don't suggest it.


Supplementing raw doesn't always mean literally mixing it with the kibble. It can be one meal raw and one kibble in a day or a few raw treats or bones during the week separate from the kibble. 

I've fed at least a dozen different types of kibble without any issue, so I can't see any reason that mixing them would be any problem at all. After all, mixing kibble is the suggested way to transition a dog from one food to another to prevent tummy upset.
I've put canned on top of kibble or mixed dehydrated with kibble many times as a treat, to add water and protein to a meal, or to encourage a dog to eat. My vet approves of feeding partial raw and partial kibble so I don't see any reason not to say that it is worth trying if someone wants to add some extra meat to their dog's diet. 

If a dog has health issues, then his feeding is a whole different story and in that case, even more carefully balanced raw or single source kibble may be the answer.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Shell said:


> Supplementing raw doesn't always mean literally mixing it with the kibble. It can be one meal raw and one kibble in a day or a few raw treats or bones during the week separate from the kibble.
> 
> I've fed at least a dozen different types of kibble without any issue, so I can't see any reason that mixing them would be any problem at all. After all, mixing kibble is the suggested way to transition a dog from one food to another to prevent tummy upset.
> I've put canned on top of kibble or mixed dehydrated with kibble many times as a treat, to add water and protein to a meal, or to encourage a dog to eat. My vet approves of feeding partial raw and partial kibble so I don't see any reason not to say that it is worth trying if someone wants to add some extra meat to their dog's diet.
> ...


I'm so glad that you've had such great experiences with kibble, too bad so many other owners nd pets have not. As you said, yes we do mix kibble during transition...not for the sake of just mixing, but only because it makes switching food easier on the dogs tummy, to give the dogs tummy time to get "use" to the new kibble. Which brings up a question, if mixing/switching kibble is okay/good for dogs, why do people even bother mixing during transition? Why not just switch foods immediately? Also we could go back and forth all day with "my vet says" but that will get us nowhere, there are vets who say feed kibble, there are vets who are against kibble and say feed raw, there are vets who say mixing is fine and vets who do not recommend mixing. The fact of the matter is that every one has an opinion.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Basically, there's no reason variety/switching foods should be bad for a dog. If living a natural life. . .hunting, scavenging, etc., they would not eat the same thing every day. Same as humans really---how many human nutritionists recommend eating the same thing every day? But, of course, just as some people can't handle certain types of food, some dogs need special dietary considerations. You have to do what works for your individual dog. 

But, generally, a healthy dog should not have any problem with variety.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Which brings up a question, if mixing/switching kibble is okay/good for dogs, why do people even bother mixing during transition? Why not just switch foods immediately?


A LOT of dogs are fine with cold turkey switches. Every one of my fosters was switched immediately to a different kibble. Same with the majority of the foster dogs I know and relatively few had anything more then less than a day's tummy upset and even that can be contributed to the stress of the change of environment. As long as the kibbles are fairly similar in terms of quality and protein/fat, it is the rare dog that really seems to have trouble with switching foods in my observation. Even my friends that feed only one kibble have tossed an egg on it or adding some meat trimming fine as long as they don't overdo the fat. 

Which is my point to the OP-- try adding some raw and see how the dog does. If the dog does fine, great and add some more raw. If the dog has GI troubles, try a different balance of bone content or switch proteins. If the dog still has stomach upset, stick with the kibble that works for your dog.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Living a "natural" life dogs would not have to eat kibble. If feeding raw then yes, variety is fine because it's natural. Feeding kibble is bad enough on a dog's GI so I could imagine the issues that switching/mixing all of these over-processed poisons can cause. I wouldn't take a chance with my dogs health.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

What is enhanced chicken??


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Kudzu said:


> What is enhanced chicken??


Chicken with a saline solution added which is also known as plumping or injecting chicken. A lot of supermarket chicken has anywhere from 4 to 15 percent typically or even 30% at the high end of its weight in salt water. The label may say all-natural but still say "enhanced with x% of chicken broth" or similar.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Shell said:


> Chicken with a saline solution added which is also known as plumping or injecting chicken. A lot of supermarket chicken has anywhere from 4 to 15 percent typically or even 30% at the high end of its weight in salt water. The label may say all-natural but still say "enhanced with x% of chicken broth" or similar.


 Yeah, you really have to keep an eye on that. They aren't even required to say it on the label, so you have to figure it out by looking at the sodium level. Most meats are naturally around 100 mg per serving, so if it's noticeably higher than that you can assume it's enhanced. Chicken and turkey are most commonly enhanced but pork is also a major offender. I've also found enhanced beef :/, but that doesn't seem to be the norm.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Living a "natural" life dogs would not have to eat kibble. If feeding raw then yes, variety is fine because it's natural. Feeding kibble is bad enough on a dog's GI so I could imagine the issues that switching/mixing all of these over-processed poisons can cause. I wouldn't take a chance with my dogs health.


Eating Cheetos is bad enough for a human's GI tract, but are you really saying people shouldn't eat veggies at the same time as Cheetos? :/ I'm pretty sure our (and our dogs') bodies can handle a lot of not-exactly-ideal situations. 

Anyhoo, I've given my dogs raw and cooked meat and kibble in the same meal and/or on the same day and I've mixed kibbles and switched kibbles cold turkey. And my dogs never had any trouble with any of it. YMMV.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Living a "natural" life dogs would not have to eat kibble. If feeding raw then yes, variety is fine because it's natural. Feeding kibble is bad enough on a dog's GI so I could imagine the issues that switching/mixing all of these over-processed poisons can cause. I wouldn't take a chance with my dogs health.


I am having trouble understanding your reasoning.

Why would it be bad for the dog, if they are eating "poisons" like processed food, to supplement such foods with fresh meats?

Some people cannot afford to go raw 100%. If they are even able to provide raw several times a week, then why would it be bad for the dog? Would it not be beneficial for them to actually have fresh foods included in their diet?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh man, I'm a bad person who mixes kibbles, feeds kibble (death nuggets and poison!), doesn't gradually introduce new food, and feeds raw and kibble on the same day... 

I think dogs not being able to tolerate that says more about the hardiness of dogs we're breeding than anything else. I'm also pretty convinced that feeding a dog just one brand and flavor of kibble forever is a great way to make sure that your dog has trouble when you need to switch to something else.

But to each his own.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Eating Cheetos is bad enough for a human's GI tract, but are you really saying people shouldn't eat veggies at the same time as Cheetos? :/ I'm pretty sure our (and our dogs') bodies can handle a lot of not-exactly-ideal situations.
> 
> Anyhoo, I've given my dogs raw and cooked meat and kibble in the same meal and/or on the same day and I've mixed kibbles and switched kibbles cold turkey. And my dogs never had any trouble with any of it. YMMV.


 Good for your dogs!


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> Oh man, I'm a bad person who mixes kibbles, feeds kibble (death nuggets and poison!), doesn't gradually introduce new food, and feeds raw and kibble on the same day...
> 
> I think dogs not being able to tolerate that says more about the hardiness of dogs we're breeding than anything else. I'm also pretty convinced that feeding a dog just one brand and flavor of kibble forever is a great way to make sure that your dog has trouble when you need to switch to something else.
> 
> But to each his own.


 I never said to feed your dog one flavor or brand of anything. My point is simply that I would not mix!


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

taquitos said:


> I am having trouble understanding your reasoning.
> 
> Why would it be bad for the dog, if they are eating "poisons" like processed food, to supplement such foods with fresh meats?
> 
> Some people cannot afford to go raw 100%. If they are even able to provide raw several times a week, then why would it be bad for the dog? Would it not be beneficial for them to actually have fresh foods included in their diet?


First of all I FEEL that feeding your dog kibble at all is not a good quality diet. I prefer raw, period. However some people think it's okay to mix and some people dont. I never said It's impossible to do, I said that I DON'T RECOMMEND OR SUGGEST mixing because dogs digest kibble and real meat differently. If you research raw you will find that there are other raw feeders who agree with not mixing. I am and will state my opinions and experiences in this forum just as you do, unless you are some expert anything that you state is ONLY an opinion/experience also. Thank you


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> First of all I FEEL that feeding your dog kibble at all is not a good quality diet. I prefer raw, period. However some people think it's okay to mix and some people dont. I never said It's impossible to do, I said that I DON'T RECOMMEND OR SUGGEST mixing because dogs digest kibble and real meat differently. If you research raw you will find that there are other raw feeders who agree with not mixing. I am and will state my opinions and experiences in this forum just as you do, unless you are some expert anything that you state is ONLY an opinion/experience also. Thank you


Taquitos my previous comment was not directed at you.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess what I'm saying is: does it matter at all that kibble and raw digest at different rates? I'm pretty sure everything we eat has different digestion times. Meat vs carrots, etc. But we still eat roast beef with carrots. I'm not even sure that it IS true that kibble and raw have significantly different digestion times, but even if they do I don't think it matters.

And, yes, I agree with taquitos that feeding some raw/fresh cooked meat is better than none. I would not want to discourage someone from feeding their dog fresh foods just because they can't do an all raw diet. *I* can't currently do an all raw diet, I don't think that means my dogs and cats should never have fresh meat.

And, yeah, you can find others who agree with you. That's true of anything. The KIBBLE IS DEATH NUGGETS people are a militant bunch, LOL. I don't agree with them at all; I think their attitudes discourage a lot of people from giving their pets a better diet. It's better to improve the diet a little than not to improve it at all.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

And you can find people who agree with you as well, obviously you just want to go back and forth, as I said before we are ALL giving our OPINIONS, it doesn't mean your right or wrong, It's your opinion. I answered this thread with information from MY research and MY experiences and i am not here to convince you of anything, nor will I try to.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Because if the OP is trying to make a decision, back and forth discussion is very useful . You give your reasons, I give mine, and anybody else reading this can make their own decisions.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Merlin eats his death nuggets with raw in the same meal a lot. Like almost everyday. 

Everything has it's own digestion rate. To suggest that kibbles + raw = no no for most dogs is silly. Some dogs, maybe. I'd say very few probably couldn't handle kibbles + raw in the same meal. I'm not sure why different digestion rates matter? Bone is harder to digest than simple meat so even in a raw meal there will be different digestion rates. :3


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> Merlin eats his death nuggets with raw in the same meal a lot. Like almost everyday.
> 
> Everything has it's own digestion rate. To suggest that kibbles + raw = no no for most dogs is silly. Some dogs, maybe. I'd say very few probably couldn't handle kibbles + raw in the same meal. I'm not sure why different digestion rates matter? Bone is harder to digest than simple meat so even in a raw meal there will be different digestion rates. :3


SOME dogs can handle it with no problems and some dogs can't, I personally don't recommend it because it COULD cause problems. Just like texting while driving, yeah you can do it...but I wouldn't recommend it. (Just an example)


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Because if the OP is trying to make a decision, back and forth discussion is very useful . You give your reasons, I give mine, and anybody else reading this can make their own decisions.


Seems like you'd rather argue and be sarcastic than have an educated discussion, and I'm not here for that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Feeding raw at all COULD cause problems. Some dogs have trouble with bones. Do you plan to recommend raw to other people? Feeding kibble COULD cause problems. Eating anything at all COULD cause problems. But whattaya gonna do? Everybody has to eat.

I didn't think I was being sarcastic. Sorry. I like an educated discussion. Do you have references for different digestion rates of kibble vs raw and what the effects may be of those different digestion rates?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Feeding raw at all COULD cause problems. Some dogs have trouble with bones. Do you plan to recommend raw to other people? Feeding kibble COULD cause problems. Eating anything at all COULD cause problems. But whattaya gonna do? Everybody has to eat.
> 
> I didn't think I was being sarcastic. Sorry. I like an educated discussion. Do you have references for different digestion rates of kibble vs raw and what the effects may be of those different digestion rates?


This.

Any type of diet has risk for causing GI upset.

I don't know how many times I have had to fast a dog because they ate something too rich, or something that didn't sit well in their tummies, even when feeding raw.

Just the other day my old foster had horrible bloody diarrhea and threw up... and that was all because she got a beef tail bone and she had too much marrow (very rich) and it upset her tummy. She had to be fasted, went back on bland meat (rabbit because she's allergic to chicken), and had to be given slippery elm for about 3-4 days.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I consider research to be a scientific study. I have not seen one of those on any of the raw feeding websites. Let alone any study showing how dogs should not eat both raw and kibble.

The facts are that most 'dog nutrition information' on the internet is written by god knows who with no education in canine nutrition and no case studies... basically it's all anecdote! That doesn't mean anecdote is bad but we should be cautious about taking such things as the dog feeding bible.

Any diet has risks. I've known crap fed dogs that live forever, dogs can choke on a raw bone. Dogs can break a tooth on a raw bone. Dogs can bloat. One dog can be great on kibble A but yet another dog could have a terrible reaction. I've seen dogs do piss poor on raw. It's all trial and error for what works for you. Pointing out that yes, a lot of dogs do just fine when eating raw and kibble combined diets based on the number of dogs on here is another such anecdote. People can take it for what they will.

I have no idea where the myth that dogs can't eat both came from. It's very strange.

I fed my dogs death nuggets this morning. Summer got a rack of ribs yesterday and Mia got ground beef and some supplements. No runs or anything. Today kibble (2 kinds mixed together, one grain free and one grain inclusive!). and a marrow bone for each plus treats because class tonight.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> SOME dogs can handle it with no problems and some dogs can't, I personally don't recommend it because it COULD cause problems. Just like texting while driving, yeah you can do it...but I wouldn't recommend it. (Just an example)


Almost any form of eating _could_ cause problems for some dogs. But overall, I haven't observed any problems from feeding some raw and some kibble to a fairly decent sample size of dogs (especially if I include other peoples' dogs that I know). I do generally feed raw and kibble in separate meals, but that is less about digestion rates and more about convenience and not making a big mess (kibble in the AM when I'm in a hurry, raw in the evening when I can supervise and feed outside).

I think you've made it clear that you don't recommend mixing but I also think that calling kibble poison and saying only raw is the way to go (when, aren't you only considering raw yourself right now anyway ?) is doing a disservice to people that are interested in adding fresh meat based protein sources to their dogs diet but are not ready or able to go all raw. A poorly balanced raw diet is dangerous, far worse than any half decent kibble that at the least has a balanced amount of minerals and such.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I went and Googled on the subject and read some of the sites that say you shouldn't mix. Now I'm concerned about my pancreas and general immune system . I eat so many different things, sometimes in the same meal, and I'm sure they digest at different rates and apparently this is terrible. I'm in big trouble.

(OK. that was mildly sarcastic I admit)

But the thing I noticed about those sites is that they say that kibble and raw digest at different rates so they shouldn't be fed together because of course they shouldn't. I was looking for more compelling reasoning but didn't find any. So I'd even accept a non-scientific site with some better deductive reasoning. . .


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also, there is a big difference between switching a dog from one diet to another vs a dog that has both 'diets' as their main diet. By that I mean feeding the dog kibble A ONLY for months or years then switching to kibble B excluseively compared to a dog that has been eating a mix of kibble A and B. Or raw and kibble. Or whatever. Feeding a MIXED diet is different than transitioning and different than feeding a rotation diet.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Shell said:


> Almost any form of eating _could_ cause problems for some dogs. But overall, I haven't observed any problems from feeding some raw and some kibble to a fairly decent sample size of dogs (especially if I include other peoples' dogs that I know). I do generally feed raw and kibble in separate meals, but that is less about digestion rates and more about convenience and not making a big mess (kibble in the AM when I'm in a hurry, raw in the evening when I can supervise and feed outside).
> 
> I think you've made it clear that you don't recommend mixing but I also think that calling kibble poison and saying only raw is the way to go (when, aren't you only considering raw yourself right now anyway ?) is doing a disservice to people that are interested in adding fresh meat based protein sources to their dogs diet but are not ready or able to go all raw. A poorly balanced raw diet is dangerous, far worse than any half decent kibble that at the least has a balanced amount of minerals and such.


Actually I have switched my dog to raw and since finding out about this option and all of the poisons in kibble, I would never go back, even if I had to buy supermarket meat. And I'm glad that you found it necessary to look up my past posts/threads, but you should get your info straight about what I'm doing.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Actually I have switched my dog to raw and since finding out about this option and all of the poisons in kibble, I would never go back, even if I had to buy supermarket meat. And I'm glad that you found it necessary to look up my past posts/threads, but you should get your info straight about what I'm doing.


I'm interested in the poisons in kibbles, could you provide sources and studies for this claim?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> I'm interested in the poisons in kibbles, could you provide sources and studies for this claim?


Look it up.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Look it up.


Thanks. That's very helpful.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-industry-exposed/shocking-truth-about-dog-food/


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Actually I have switched my dog to raw and since finding out about this option and all of the poisons in kibble, I would never go back, even if I had to buy supermarket meat. And I'm glad that you found it necessary to look up my past posts/threads, but you should get your info straight about what I'm doing.


I didn't "look it up", I just recalled having read it recently in the food thread which made me wonder if you had or hadn't yet tried going full raw which could affect someone's understanding of the effort (to correctly balance the nutrients), freezer space and costs involved (costs will vary widely depending on location and sourcing meat). 

Kibble may not be the best diet for all dogs by any means, but if it truly has POISON in it, dogs would be dropping dead left and right and no, I don't mean of diseases that could have multiple environmental and genetic factors, I mean keeling over. There have of course been cases of contamination, but there have been human food products that have also been adulterated or accidentally contaminated. 

Here's the question though, if kibble is so horrible, then why not encourage someone to feed partially raw in order to reduce their kibble intake? 

Not every dog will do well on ANY given diet.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> Thanks. That's very helpful.


You're not looking for help, your looking for argument...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-industry-exposed/shocking-truth-about-dog-food/


Isn't that why we avoid foods with odd labels and only buy from plants/manufacturers we trust?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Shell said:


> I didn't "look it up", I just recalled having read it recently in the food thread which made me wonder if you had or hadn't yet tried going full raw which could affect someone's understanding of the effort (to correctly balance the nutrients), freezer space and costs involved (costs will vary widely depending on location and sourcing meat).
> 
> Kibble may not be the best diet for all dogs by any means, but if it truly has POISON in it, dogs would be dropping dead left and right and no, I don't mean of diseases that could have multiple environmental and genetic factors, I mean keeling over. There have of course been cases of contamination, but there have been human food products that have also been adulterated or accidentally contaminated.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, you just "recalled" lol...you're a character! And incase you haven't noticed or read any reviews on kibble, DOGS ARE DROPPING DEAD LEFT AND RIGHT! Obviously conversing with you is a total waste of time. Good bye to you


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dog food advisor is a great resource to look up nutritional data and also to see ingredients quickly but it is still one man's opinion and he is not a canine nutritionist. 

Dogs are not dropping dead left and right because of kibble. I'm puzzled by that one. The only major issue I know of recently has been those jerky treats from China.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Oh yeah, you just "recalled" lol...you're a character! And incase you haven't noticed or read any reviews on kibble, DOGS ARE DROPPING DEAD LEFT AND RIGHT! Obviously conversing with you is a total waste of time. Good bye to you


There is no evidence showing that it is JUST diet that is affecting the overall health of dogs. Lots have to do with breeding and genetics (BYBs, mills, etc.), and there are plenty of environmental factors too... I don't understand how you can be 100% sure, even if it's just your opinion, that kibble is THE cause of this happening.

I don't know where you are getting this info. that dogs are dropping dead left and right and that the cause is kibble... Many of us have had dogs live for many years on kibble, or even just dinner scraps back in the day. My grandma had a 15 year old Jindo who was fed what she ate... which meant kimchi, heavily spiced food, left over fish carcasses... rice... and the dog was still healthy as a horse and had absolutely no problems until it died.

There are also problems in raw -- if you are buying enhanced meat, or meat from poor quality sources, then I am not sure it will be any better than if you were feeding kibble made from quality ingredients...


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Oh yeah, you just "recalled" lol...you're a character! And incase you haven't noticed or read any reviews on kibble, DOGS ARE DROPPING DEAD LEFT AND RIGHT! Obviously conversing with you is a total waste of time. Good bye to you


Yep, I did recall it. It really isn't that difficult to remember a topic that I read a week ago. 

I do follow reviews and industry news on kibble. The main culprit to dogs "dropping dead left and right" has been products sourced from China, especially chicken treats. China made food products for both animals and humans have a fairly poor safety record, to the point that (for example) middle and upper class Chinese parents are buying huge amounts of baby formula when they or their friends travel abroad because there has been contamination in their domestically produced formula. 
Doesn't mean that baby formula is poison, it means that poorly sourced baby formula is dangerous.

Seeking out manufacturers of dog food that use strictly US (or Canada) sourced ingredients and are as transparent as possible in their labeling and manufacturing process will go a long way towards ensuring the safety of the product. Even feeding raw isn't a complete buffer against potentially problematic food items since some will use excessive sodium, some use denaturents, some livestock is pumped full of antibiotics, etc.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Eek. Born Free USA is NOT a reputable site. 

Try this from the FDA:
"Dogs, cats not found in dog food

Because pentobarbital is used to euthanize dogs and cats at animal shelters, finding pentobarbital in rendered feed ingredients could suggest that the pets were rendered and used in pet food.
CVM scientists, as part of their investigation, developed a test to detect dog and cat DNA in the protein of the dog food. All samples from the most recent dog food survey (2000) that tested positive for pentobarbital, as well as a subset of samples that tested negative, were examined for the presence of remains derived from dogs or cats. The results demonstrated a complete absence of material that would have been derived from euthanized dogs or cats. The sensitivity of this method is 0.005% on a weight/weight basis; that is, the method can detect a minimum of 5 pounds of rendered remains in 50 tons of finished feed. Presently, it is assumed that the pentobarbital residues are entering pet foods from euthanized, rendered cattle or even horses."
http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/Centers...VM/CVMFOIAElectronicReadingRoom/ucm129131.htm

Pentobarbital can be found in trace amounts in some dog foods. That's why we generally use other measures to kill cows and such now.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Shell said:


> Yep, I did recall it. It really isn't that difficult to remember a topic that I read a week ago.
> 
> I do follow reviews and industry news on kibble. The main culprit to dogs "dropping dead left and right" has been products sourced from China, especially chicken treats. China made food products for both animals and humans have a fairly poor safety record, to the point that (for example) middle and upper class Chinese parents are buying huge amounts of baby formula when they or their friends travel abroad because there has been contamination in their domestically produced formula.
> Doesn't mean that baby formula is poison, it means that poorly sourced baby formula is dangerous.
> ...


 I get my meat from a butcher, I know what's going in it  I'd still choose supermarket meat over poisoned kibble.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> Eek. Born Free USA is NOT a reputable site.
> 
> Try this from the FDA:
> "Dogs, cats not found in dog food
> ...


Well you just helped prove my point. I'll pass on ANY traces of Pentobarbital in my dogs food, no matter how it got there.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> THESE RESULTS NEED TO BE UNDERSTOOD WITHIN THE FOLLOWING CONTEXT:
> 
> Sampling was non-representative. Samples were purchased from retail outlets in the Laurel, MD, area. Only dry dog foods with certain animal-derived ingredients were sampled. This selection pattern meant that the samples were not representative of dog food nationwide or even locally. It also means that the data cannot be used to draw inferences about dog food being produced and sold in the U.S. today. The concentration of pentobarbital, if present in any U.S. pet food, may be different than the findings of these surveys. The results apply only to the specific lots analyzed.
> 
> ...


Just throwing that out there. If you check out the actual survey, it's a very low number of food brands tested. 

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/Centers...VM/CVMFOIAElectronicReadingRoom/ucm129135.htm


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

It never said all dog foods everywhere have pentobarbital. Just that none of those that were tested had dead dogs or cats in it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

They also actually use phenobarbital to treat dogs with epilepsy.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

NO BACK PADDLING, Hahaha! I'm done with this thread, have a great day all


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> NO BACK PADDLING, Hahaha! I'm done with this thread, have a great day all


Geez. There sure are a lot of rules for discussion.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

This thread too? Jeez.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> This thread too? Jeez.


It started off on this thread and then Alapha_lover started posting regarding the issue of mixing raw with kibble on his/her other thread as well.

VERY FRUSTRATING.

I give up. I cannot get a straight answer from this person and this person seems to be under the impression that we are all out to get them for whatever reason *rolls eyes*


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

absolutely! i use frozen meaty bones as a crate treat


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> They also actually use phenobarbital to treat dogs with epilepsy.


Phenobarbitol (use to treat seizures) and pentobarbitol (used to induce comas) are not the same thing. They're related, but have different uses/effects.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

gingerkid said:


> Phenobarbitol (use to treat seizures) and pentobarbitol (used to induce comas) are not the same thing. They're related, but have different uses/effects.


Whoopsie. LOL


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

gingerkid said:


> Phenobarbitol (use to treat seizures) and pentobarbitol (used to induce comas) are not the same thing. They're related, but have different uses/effects.


Great info...thanks


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

For the OP, if you're buying raw at the grocery store, I'm told 100 mg max per four ounce serving.


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