# Can dogs be mentally handicapped?



## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

This was a thought I had at 2am last night. Do you suppose it's possible for dogs to have some kind of mental handicap? People can, why not dogs? I know they can suffer from disorders like anxiety and OCD so do you think it's possible? Discuss


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Yes, they can. My trainer has a dog who is very similar to someone with autism . . . its hard to explain but the dog just is very similar (I have 3 cousins who are autistic). Dogs can most definitly have ocd too; there are dogs who constantly have to chase their tails or lick things. Allie has an anxiety problem, and is on medication for it (and it is helping a ton!). More and more drugs are being approved for use with dogs for mental issues.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

of course... havent you met my dogs??

no seriously... i believe so.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Yes they can!...my godmother has a GSD that is not right and is on medication. He also has to be "tied" to her when new people come into the house because he can snap at them.....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I really think so. Trey is very very strange to the point we asked the vets and they think he has a problem of some sort. It's hard to explain but we have believed he has some sort of mental problem. He's not dumb at all, he's actually very good with commands and things. He has a complete inability, though, to read and communicate with other dogs or people. He is very emotionless and stiff in everything he does.... Hard to explain but I've heard of one other dog that is the same way and his owner always assumed he was challenged too. He gets very fearful of nothing, he has no common sense and no communication skills. Once again I can't explain, but if you were to meet him, you'd probably mention the fact he seems very off.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

meet Meghan.....i call her "Raindog" and it's not just for grins and giggles.....she is the smartest, sweetest, most lovable (w/ people she knows) little girl i have ever met but there is definitely an autistic type behavior going on there......she is just like Dustin Hoffman character in "Rainman"......if she could speak, she'd be sitting there at times (especially when stressed) saying "ten minutes to dog park....ten min to dog park...."

but i love her soooooo much......


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

In reply to Laurelin"s post..forgot to quote...

^^ Frosty is kind of off like that too. He's fine with other dogs though, he's just...different. I can't explain it, but everyone who meets him says he seems off. He has none of that herding dog sharpness that Ripley and Shiner have....he knows commands, but doesn't try to out think you like a herder. DH describes it as seeming confused all the time....emotionless and stiff sounds right too, though at the same time, he's really, really attatched to me. I have no medical diagnosis or anything, just a feeling. He jumps into the van with the door shut, he has many many fears....DH's other theory as to why he's off is his being attacked by that dog at 4 months old...who knows. He's totally my baby boy and my heart dog though.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

anxiety for sure.... 


Critter is for sure...not right in the head.


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## Sonn84 (Mar 29, 2008)

My vet has an autistic child and tells me how much my dog Gizmo acts like him so yes I definitely think they can be plus she has OCD.


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## darlin (Jun 18, 2007)

We got our olde english bulldog when he was four weeks old. He is now one and a half years. He has always acted strangely, sometimes not wanting to be touched, up and barking like mad at nothing, running into walls, stuff like that. We just recently found out that when he was born and the mother refused her pups (too much breeding) that instead of putting the puppies on dog formula the owner just fed them cow's milk. We think that had a lot to do with why Tank is the way he is. The whole family had to figure out how to deal with him. For instance we can't play rough or he freaks and attacks one of our other dogs for no reason (we have five dogs total). Since we now babytalk him and treat him like he is genuinly retarded, he has come around and we are finding it possible to train him in basics. We all love him though just the way he is.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sheltiemom said:


> In reply to Laurelin"s post..forgot to quote...
> 
> ^^ Frosty is kind of off like that too. He's fine with other dogs though, he's just...different. I can't explain it, but everyone who meets him says he seems off. He has none of that herding dog sharpness that Ripley and Shiner have....he knows commands, but doesn't try to out think you like a herder. DH describes it as seeming confused all the time....emotionless and stiff sounds right too, though at the same time, he's really, really attatched to me. I have no medical diagnosis or anything, just a feeling. He jumps into the van with the door shut, he has many many fears....DH's other theory as to why he's off is his being attacked by that dog at 4 months old...who knows. He's totally my baby boy and my heart dog though.


That is kind of like Trey. He jumps straight into the van door all the time. he is also very attached to me, just not loving.... if that makes sense. I know he loves me (I'm his person as far as he is concerned though he belongs to my sister technically) The vets kept talking about how odd he was after we boarded him once, no diagnosis but no one knows what is wrong with him, just that something is wrong. Most people mention it right away.

He is unable to play. He gets scared and defensive if anyone- dog or person tries to play with him. It's not because of any lack of socialization, he was raised with 11 other shelties then moved in with us and Nik, who was always very playful. He'll also just stare at a wall for hours on end. He often will seem to forget what he's doing... You take him outside and he just looks lost. 

At the same time, he has a lot of herding drive- nips heels, OCD behaviors, everything. He had been on sheep before we got him and showed some promise and he was also training in agility too...

It also seems to have taken him until last week to realize Nikki had died. It's so weird, all of a sudden he's become distressed and sniffing out her 'spots' and looking all over for her. She's been gone over a month...

He is HARD to get close to, but I've gotten there. I adore him, but he is always a challenge and honestly the main reason I don't want a sheltie again is because of him. My other two were normal, but I don't know if I can deal with another Trey. He is happy though, he loves me, loves being petted and picked up though that took years to get him to do. He loves to run and chase things and nip at heels. His favorite thing is getting his feet clipped and nails done, lol!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Sure, animals can have all the same disorders that humans can. 

I have a cat who ain't right. I think he's inbred. His family tree does not branch. You can hear "Dueling Banjos" whenever you look at him. He actually has an overbite. But he's a loveable snugbug, and he's neutered so he won't be inbreeding any more.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Yes I do think they can have mental issues.

My cat (that lives with my parents) is just nuts. We are sure she is a psychopath. One second she is loving on you next thing you know she turns around and attacks you to the point of drawing blood then runs like the hills. She was like that as a kitten and is now 10 years old and still does it. She just isn't all there.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

One of my cats has some serious mental issues. I think it has to do with being in a garbage bag for a little bit as a kitten . . . oxygen deprivation and all that. I'm listening to her right now, she has forgotten I already fed her. ::sigh:: 

p.s. I did not put her in the garbage bag, just found her that way.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

I know (and have a lot of respect for) a psychiatrist who recognized that her cat was suffering from post traumatic stress. Hers is an outside kitty (taken in that way and not really a housecat, so they let her have outside access). They were out of town once (a neighbor was watching the cat) and a raccoon got through the cat door, got into everything and made a big mess. The cat freaked out and started acting very strange after the incident, including by marking all of her favorite spots, like the couches. This was back before vets really recognized that animals could have mental disorders, so she had a hard time finding a vet who would prescribe something. But she did and it really helped (the cat now knows when it's time for her meds and asks for them!).

I didn't realize that animals could have autistic tendencies. That's really interesting.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

Phew I'm glad you all don't think I'm crazy lol...

the reason I thought of it is because my dog is very smart, he picks up "tricks" quickly. yet he has extremely high anxiety and no social skills, and is terrified of strangers. He also has really wierd habits like before he eats he does a repetitive behavior where he touches his nose to the plate to the floor over and over. He also has a very set routine and gets upset if we stray from it. If I miss his walk he'll stand by the door. If I miss "cuddle time" he stands on the couch. To me, he appears to have some kind of autism or something. Maybe if we just start treating him like he's got some kind of mental handicap instead of expecting him to be normal we'll have more success with him. He has made progress in the last 2 years... baby steps and he regresses occasionally, but at least it's something. 

And I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that suspects my dog is somehow "not right in the head"!


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

> If I miss his walk he'll stand by the door. If I miss "cuddle time" he stands on the couch



that does not mean your dog is handicap that's normal dog behavior. I think your dog is just a very energetic dog that's not getting enough excercise. A tired dog is a happy dog. Maybe you ought to invest in a treadmill and get a excercise routine down for him or play ball with him you know diff. stuff each day to stimulate his brain and I bet he would be a much happier dog and you would be a happier owner...................... JMO though I'm not bashing you either


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## chrisb (Jul 14, 2008)

i think they can. Hey sometimes i ask Shelby if she was dropped on her head as a puppy. Shelby is obsessed with light. Her old owners thought this was hilarious and used to make her chase the beam of a flashlight. This dog drives me nutso, she will actually run into walls trying to get the light. And example of something that happens several times a day. Shelby will be out in the breezeway. She barks to be let in. I open the door, but the sun catches the window and creates a light. Now shelby is staring at the light barking at it. If i move the door the light moves, so Shelby chases the light. I close it all the way, and she barks to be let in. We go through the entire process again. I finally have to go out there and lead her to the door myself.

chris


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

I think they can for sure.

Coal has OCD, and some very odd quirks about him. 

My cat Daiquiri is inbred and therefore a little... strange... at times. She does the whole purring and love you to bits and then like the drop of a hat she's biting you and running away. She's also not exactly the sharpest tool in the drawer. The other cats seem to have some kind of sense to them, but not Daiquiri. I swear she's had more than 9 lives by now; always putting herself into stupid and dangerous positions. When she was a kitten she loved playing in bags and getting the handles wrapped around her neck, we had to put away every bag in the house until she finally grew out of it. Although she still likes going in bags, and boxes, and under newspaper, she doesn't get anything wrapped around her neck anymore. I know climbing in things is a normal cat behavior, but she lacks all caution unlike the other cats.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Annamarie said:


> Phew I'm glad you all don't think I'm crazy lol...
> 
> the reason I thought of it is because my dog is very smart, he picks up "tricks" quickly. yet he has extremely high anxiety and no social skills, and is terrified of strangers. He also has really wierd habits like before he eats he does a repetitive behavior where he touches his nose to the plate to the floor over and over. He also has a very set routine and gets upset if we stray from it. If I miss his walk he'll stand by the door. If I miss "cuddle time" he stands on the couch. To me, he appears to have some kind of autism or something. Maybe if we just start treating him like he's got some kind of mental handicap instead of expecting him to be normal we'll have more success with him. He has made progress in the last 2 years... baby steps and he regresses occasionally, but at least it's something.
> 
> And I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that suspects my dog is somehow "not right in the head"!


yep, sounds like autism to me.....they like things structured and if you get them off the routine it upsets their whole day.....Meghan, like i say, is very routine oriented.....i can change some things but for the most part it needs to stay the same....she really stresses if she doesn't have things in the right order.....(me and the other "kids" come home from work at about 7 am, she gets let out to pee, in to eat, out to poop, in for playtime for about 2 1/2 hrs, in her crate for a "nap" [ruffly an hr], then off to the dog club for an 1-1 1/2 hrs, home for a short nap, out to play some more and do some learning w/ potty breaks often [she drinks lots of water while playing in the pool at the club] then about 5, time for supper, then to bed for me to sleep b/4 work....out at 9:30 or 10 p.m. for potty and play time while i get ready for work, back to her crate for the night and start the routine all over the next day)....you know, it's pretty bad when your dog(s) run your daily routine....the only time it changes is when i have to go goosing, and that upsets her schedule.....


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Annamarie said:


> Phew I'm glad you all don't think I'm crazy lol...
> 
> the reason I thought of it is because my dog is very smart, he picks up "tricks" quickly. yet he has extremely high anxiety and no social skills, and is terrified of strangers. He also has really wierd habits like before he eats he does a repetitive behavior where he touches his nose to the plate to the floor over and over. He also has a very set routine and gets upset if we stray from it. If I miss his walk he'll stand by the door. If I miss "cuddle time" he stands on the couch. To me, he appears to have some kind of autism or something. Maybe if we just start treating him like he's got some kind of mental handicap instead of expecting him to be normal we'll have more success with him. He has made progress in the last 2 years... baby steps and he regresses occasionally, but at least it's something.
> 
> And I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that suspects my dog is somehow "not right in the head"!


That doesn't sound like autism to me. It sounds like a dog that didn't really get that "window" of socialization filled adequately. That combined with a breed of dog that is normally leary of strangers (as many toy breeds are) and the extreme sensitivity of your breed. Most dogs do follow routine. My little girl Chi runs into the kitchen every night waiting to get her teeth brushed! She just keeps looking at me and looking at the counter where her toothbrush is. Once I brush her teeth she trots off to bed. It is rather hilarious!

Here is a description of your breed I read:


> Temperament: Miniature Pinschers are lively and alert. They are very protective and watchful, making them good watch dogs. *They are noisy dogs*, barking at anything unusual. Mini Pins are perky and upbeat, but *can be aggressive with other dogs and wary around strangers*. They will react to provocation. They are not guard dogs, however, and would probably only be able to bite someone's ankle. Although protective, they are naturally sweet dogs. They are loyal and mostly inside dogs.


I do think it's important to recognize the limitations of the breed. I know that my Chi's may bark when they hear to doorbell, but it is something we have worked on and they now only bark a few times and stop when I say "enough". Our doxie x does try to "go to ground" but we've taught him to be gentle with the rabbits. 

Anyway, I think your dog is normal, though it does sound like he missed some socialization (didn't you say he was at the breeders who lived in a remote area?). Mine were the same way (unsocialized), so we've had our work cut out for us but with kindness, patience and understanding, they've made enormous strides. No one really believes they were unsocialized now. But I can see when their stress levels rise and I remove them from the situation before we have setbacks. It takes vigilance however!

I wish you continued success with your little dog. I think he's a real cutie!


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

kelliope said:


> Most dogs do follow routine. My little girl Chi runs into the kitchen every night waiting to get her teeth brushed! She just keeps looking at me and looking at the counter where her toothbrush is. Once I brush her teeth she trots off to bed. It is rather hilarious!


but do most dogs stress out if that routine is broke?....i have 5 BC's and the only one that _*has*_ to have her set routine or they stress is Meghan....and most people will tell you that BC's are OCD (or otherwise not "right" in the head) anyway....

if the dog is stressing b/c of the change in routine then i'd say that there was a "mental" disorder of some sort.....i work w/ mental disorders in people daily and Meghan, i know, fits their disorders quite strongly......


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

but Min pins are high energy dogs and from the sound of things it sounds like the OP doesn't tire the dog out enough or give it enough mental stimulation. High energy dogs need that everyday to be happy and function properly. If the dog gets stressed because it doesn't get walked that doesn't mean it has a mental illness it means the dog wants it's walk. Simple the stress can be relieved by excercising the dog. A dog that stands by the door because it has missed it's walk is normal and means the dog wants out.


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

What about dogs that are completely oblivious to any attempt at training them? Bartleby is deaf, but even that doesn't seem to explain his complete incapability to learn. From what I've read and seen, deaf dogs should be just as easy to train as hearing dogs with the use of hand signals etc. But, Bartleby doesn't seem to absorb anything at all. He's like a completely blank slate and everything just slides off of him.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

have you checked with a trainer that has history successfully training deaf dogs? Maybe they could help. I have never been around a deaf dog so I dont' know maybe he's misunderstanding you body language and or hand signals..........


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

sw_df27 said:


> but Min pins are high energy dogs and from the sound of things it sounds like the OP doesn't tire the dog out enough or give it enough mental stimulation. High energy dogs need that everyday to be happy and function properly. If the dog gets stressed because it doesn't get walked that doesn't mean it has a mental illness it means the dog wants it's walk. Simple the stress can be relieved by excercising the dog. A dog that stands by the door because it has missed it's walk is normal and means the dog wants out.


again, using mine as an example (also an extremely high energy dog), the only one that stresses if we are not out of the house by a certain time (even tho the others know that time just as well) is Meghan...if the time (10:30-11 am) comes and goes and we don't go to the dog club, she paces, gets into any/everything (and not naughtily, just annoyingly stresed out manner) and will not settle in her crate for sleep time, even having been out playing and racing thru the house, going for a walk, whatever....her routine has been disrupted.....she cannot function normally for the rest of the day and is even restless all night b/c of it....her energy is "burned out" just the same, but the schedule has/d changed.....that's a disorder....


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

I didn't say your dog didn't have a disorder.......did I? I was simply answering the OP Question more in depth.............. Did I say anything about your dogs? sorry if you thought it was directed at you but it wasn't............ you said if the dogs routine was disrupted as far as I know the OP's dog has no routine to interrupt


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

i'm not saying my dog is abnormal simply because he likes a routine. i'm saying that paired with his other behaviors, he behaves a lot like someone with autism. and there is a difference between a dog that simply likes a routine and a dog that gets really stressed out if it's not followed. I'm not saying he IS autistic either.

as far as my dog not being socialized properly, he was with his mom, 1 littermate, and dad for 11 weeks and yes they lived in a remote area, but we brought him to puppy class and everywhere we went to socialize him and he never got it. he was dog aggressive from the start. he only has one friend that he plays with that for whatever reason they seem to click, all other dogs he'll cower from and run away. we sent him to small dog daycare and he just sat in the corner refusing to socialize with anyone.

and he is walked at least once a day so he does have a routine. after dinner we always take him for a walk, and if i'm feeling well enough I'll also take him out during the day. for his after dinner walk we usually try to let him off leash in the field and call him back and forth between us so that he drains all that energy. otherwise we'd have to walk 20 hours a day to tire him out... walking does nothing for him, only running.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

All the things you describe (with the exception of getting stressed with change in routine) are described as breed traits by many breeders. 

I have met several min pins. None were good with other dogs or strangers. All were hyper and very sensitive to stress. The owners adored them though and found them to be very loving, but did sometimes get frustrated when taking them out.

BTW, I do think it is possible for dogs to have mental issue just as any living creature can have them. But I think it is often related to something such as deafness, blindness, environmental issues, improper or late socialization, breed traits, etc.

An example - a horse weaves in his stall. Does he have OCD or does he just need more stimulation in the form of turnout with pasturemates? Often the latter would solve the problem.


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## strawbrykiwicake (Dec 29, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I really think so. Trey is very very strange to the point we asked the vets and they think he has a problem of some sort. It's hard to explain but we have believed he has some sort of mental problem. He's not dumb at all, he's actually very good with commands and things. He has a complete inability, though, to read and communicate with other dogs or people. He is very emotionless and stiff in everything he does.... Hard to explain but I've heard of one other dog that is the same way and his owner always assumed he was challenged too. He gets very fearful of nothing, he has no common sense and no communication skills. Once again I can't explain, but if you were to meet him, you'd probably mention the fact he seems very off.


I had an Austrailian Sheppard with almost the opposite problem of Trey! He was incredibly intuitive and emotional but had a hard time following commands. Was one of the best dogs I have ever been around because he just LOVED to do the right thing so even if he didn't know what you wanted he just kept trying!


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

> An example - a horse weaves in his stall. Does he have OCD or does he just need more stimulation in the form of turnout with pasturemates? Often the latter would solve the problem.


With regards to the weaving, I have seen some horses that it was just boredom and others that would be turned out to hundreds of acres of pasture with lush grass at the fence and still weave. So I agree, a lot of behaviors can be breed traits or training or management issues, but I think sometimes animals can have true mental issues.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

sw_df27 said:


> I didn't say your dog didn't have a disorder.......did I? I was simply answering the OP Question more in depth.............. Did I say anything about your dogs? sorry if you thought it was directed at you but it wasn't............ you said if the dogs routine was disrupted as far as I know the OP's dog has no routine to interrupt


sorry, i never figured that your comments were directed at me in particular....it's just that i used mineas an example as i know that there is a routine and i wanted to point out that indeed dogs can have "mental disorders".....neither of us know if the OP has a regular routine or not (tho i got the impression that they did) and so i couldn't speak straight out for them......


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