# Bones for pups. ears, wings and hooves



## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

I've been looking for things my 14week old airedale can have in the evenings that last longer than a few seconds.

I recently spoke to a breeder that said that a whole raw chicken wing is perfect for a puppy as that would be what they eat in the wild. That would include the raw meat, fat and 3 wing bones. Is that ok for him to have? 

I would rather him have natural dried animal parts than compressed treats, is this right?

If I write a short list, it would be really handy if some people would give there opinions on when it would be ok for my puppy to have these particular things...

Raw chicken bones,
jumbone,
pigs ears,
hooves
filled bones
trachea
rawhide

Also, it would be really handy to know how much of these he can have. The last few nights he has been having about 3inches of trachea, supervised.


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

A lot of people have great success feeding raw meaty bones like chicken wings. I have done it in the past but prefer not to now (I'm just not comfortable with raw meat).


I haven't given anything else on the list though my dog seems very interested in the tracheas at the pet supply store I go to, so I might give them a shot. A treat I really like to give is dried beef tendons. I like Merrick's Flossies brand because they're made in the United States. Bully sticks are also good, but they can be smelly. Some dogs will still go through the bully sticks and tendons pretty quickly, but these are definitely more of a chew-type treat. Other ones my dog likes (these are chew treats but they don't last very long) are freeze dried sweet potatoes and Get Naked brand chew sticks. 

For really long-lasting chews, my dog likes deer antlers; I have a few that have lasted over a year and look like they've barely been chewed on! I have heard reports of dogs cracking teeth on them though, so if your dog's a powerful chewer you might want to stay away from them. I've heard really good things about Himalayan Chews--apparently they're made out of yak's milk, but they're very hard--but they're expensive and I haven't tried them yet. 

I try to stay away from rawhide as it is often bleached. I also try to stick with treats that aren't made in China.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I don't think you're supposed to give weight bearing bones from large animals, so I'd be wary of filled bones/marrow bones. They're too dense and could crack a tooth. Also, avoid the cooked/smoked/sterilized bones you get from the pet store.. Because they're cooked, they're dried out and dry brittle bones can splinter and be dangerous if swallowed. They're also usually cow legs bones so they're also too dense to chew.

I think feeding chicken wings would be a great place to start, you can also feed chicken necks and backs, and turkey wings/necks/backs. If you're going to be feeding your dog raw meat and bones, I would count it as an entire meal, not as a treat. So if you're feeding kibble, too, subtract the appropriate amount of kibble to make for it. If you're feeding a totally raw diet, I'm not certain, but I believe that you're supposed to feed puppies 10% of their current body weight. Then once they become adults, feed 2-3% of their body weight. Someone correct me if this is inaccurate.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

You will probably find a lot of differing opinions on this. Most people have a laundry list of things they will and will not give their dogs. I know some dogs that aren't allowed anything but kibble (how sad) and also some dogs whose job is the family food compactor (also not such a good idea).

For me, I know my dogs are not going to swallow anything large than a dime, whole. However, many dogs you can not trust to not just swallow it down and you have to carefully supervisor and "show" them they are to chew it, not eat it in one gulp. 

I never feed chicken bones. ever.

jumbone? like the Pedigree chew stick thing? Yeah, those are fine in my book. They just don't last long and I'd rather give a natural treat

pigs ears are good, just watch where they come from. hooves are okay too but they can splinter and become sharp. 

Filled bones are by far my favorite. I get the raw marrow bones from the butcher, freeze them and feed. When the dogs are done, I take them back, fill them with PB and reuse. 

Rawhide is iffy. I've met a lot of dogs who dont actually chew their rawhide. They work on it until it is soft and then try to swallow it, causing it to lodge in their throat. If you decide to give rawhide make sure to supervise. I think Bully Sticks are a better alternative.

You can also try giving natural treats, such as carrots. You can also get a Kong or puzzle toy and fill with PB and treats....


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

Hmm I've heard chicken necks were a choking hazard (moreoso than other bones - I REALIZE the logic behind "a dog can choke on anything", but I wouldn't feed chicken necks to a gulper or a larger breed puppy...) I wouldn't feed them to my lab mix, who is probably around the same size as your airedale pup.

Despite concerns about chipping teeth, I've always fed raw beef marrow bones (the heavier ones that people don't tend to recommend) to our large dogs and they did fine with no problems - I remove the bone after they strip away the meat/marrow. 

I guess it truly depends on your dog. 

I also give filled Kong toys, rolled-up unbleached rawhides (my current pup is the only dog I've ever had who can handle them without any problems!), pig ears...


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I give my dogs the hoof trimmings whenever I get my horse's feet done and they last for ages. They love chewing on them even when they are all dried up and won't hurt them if they chew pieces off and swallow them. I get bones from the butchers, all sizes and shapes and usually with lots of meat and gristle on them for them to chew off.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

A chicken wing would probably be snarked down in about 2 seconds. Beef ribs are best for recreational chewing (if you think all that meat will upset his tummy, you can cut the meat off. But I never do). They last a good long time.


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

I'm not sure everyone is talking about puppies here. I specifically wanted to know what my 13week old puppy can have. 
I'm pretty sure he cant have beef ribs and hoof trimmings. I'd like to know what age it would be acceptable to try him on different things.

My vet is not being very helpful, she just has a list of reasons as long as her arm as to why he should only eat kibble and never have anything else ever!


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

lewiswalks said:


> I'm not sure everyone is talking about puppies here. I specifically wanted to know what my 13week old puppy can have.
> I'm pretty sure he cant have beef ribs and hoof trimmings. I'd like to know what age it would be acceptable to try him on different things.
> 
> My vet is not being very helpful, she just has a list of reasons as long as her arm as to why he should only eat kibble and never have anything else ever!


Why can't he have beef ribs?

I wouldn't be afraid to put down any large piece of meat/bone in front of my dog. (In fact, I'd be more nervous about small pieces like chicken necks than I would larger pieces like ribs, etc). If you want digestible bone, look into chicken bones, (some parts) of turkey, or rabbit. But really any meat that's appropriate for a dog will be appropriate for a puppy. Always supervise your dog.


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

OliveSheprador said:


> Why can't he have beef ribs?
> 
> I wouldn't be afraid to put down any large piece of meat/bone in front of my dog. (In fact, I'd be more nervous about small pieces like chicken necks than I would larger pieces like ribs, etc). If you want digestible bone, look into chicken bones, (some parts) of turkey, or rabbit. But really any meat that's appropriate for a dog will be appropriate for a puppy. Always supervise your dog.


Thats interesting as its pretty much the oposite of what some breeders have been telling me. I've been told that he cant have any bones untill he has his adult teeth. Even then, he shouldnt have any cooked bones.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

lewiswalks said:


> Thats interesting as its pretty much the oposite of what some breeders have been telling me. I've been told that he cant have any bones untill he has his adult teeth. Even then, he shouldnt have any cooked bones.


My vet also said no bones until my puppy's adult teeth are in. His concern is that a chipped tooth can lead to an infection in the root that will create problems with adult teeth. I've been giving Molly bully sticks since she was about 15 weeks old. Before that, I gave her various puppy Kongs, with a tiny bit of peanut butter or kibble in them. She also loves to chew on soft toys or a sock with a knot or two. I've given her a sock with ice cubes in it & she's enjoyed chewing on that, too. I always monitor her when she has a bully stick or a soft toy but I feel safe leaving her with a puppy Kong or two when she's on her own.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Are puppy teeth softer than adult teeth or something? I thought the only difference was that puppy teeth didn't have roots? If they have the same density as adult teeth, then they shouldn't be more at risk of cracking teeth on bones. Plus I'd wonder if a puppy even has the same jaw strength as an adult, and if they could even bite down hard enough to crack teeth...

But I really can't imagine chicken wings ever cracking teeth.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Nargle said:


> Are puppy teeth softer than adult teeth or something? I thought the only difference was that puppy teeth didn't have roots? If they have the same density as adult teeth, then they shouldn't be more at risk of cracking teeth on bones. Plus I'd wonder if a puppy even has the same jaw strength as an adult, and if they could even bite down hard enough to crack teeth...
> 
> But I really can't imagine chicken wings ever cracking teeth.


My vet explained that puppy teeth are much more brittle than adult teeth so there's a greater risk of a tooth breaking. I have no experience giving bones to puppies so I have nothing to go on other than my vet's advice.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Funny, when I got my first dog, all the books and the vet said to give hard weight-bearing bones to puppies to teeth on, because if they chipped or broke a tooth, no big loss! Funny how things change.



lewiswalks said:


> Thats interesting as its pretty much the oposite of what some breeders have been telling me. I've been told that he cant have any bones untill he has his adult teeth. Even then, he shouldnt have any cooked bones.


That's right; no cooked bones ever. They're too brittle and can splinter.


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## momof3 (Nov 24, 2007)

Somethings I feed the 15wk old ACD that stays with me during the day for teething is:
Ribs with bone beef,pork,deer
Frozen turkey and chicken necks
Frozen chicken feet
Frozen stuffed Kong some things I use are cottage cheese,PB,plain yogurt,ground turkey,sometimes I add a little pumpkin to the mix
This pup has been given raw food since he was brought home.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Bully sticks are good for puppies as they last forever. Plus they are more of a natural treat.

Things like Jumbone won't last very long and aren't worth using often IMO.

I am not comfortable with the raw chicken wings. Mostly the small bones would make me nervous.

Our pup has no problems chewing on the rawhides as she can't tear pieces off very well yet. Once she starts doing that we're done with it. Our sheltie no longer gets rawhide for that reason...

Stuffed and frozen Kong is still probably the best.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

Willowy said:


> A chicken wing would probably be snarked down in about 2 seconds. Beef ribs are best for recreational chewing (if you think all that meat will upset his tummy, you can cut the meat off. But I never do). They last a good long time.


agreed.

you have an airedale....maybe a chicken wing would work for a chi, but not an airedale, even a puppy.

stripped down beef bbq ribs....the fat could give loose stools, but if not, then just feed the beef rib as is and let the pup go to town....good for teething and good for cleaning teeth.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

lewiswalks said:


> Thats interesting as its pretty much the oposite of what some breeders have been telling me. I've been told that he cant have any bones untill he has his adult teeth. Even then, he shouldnt have any cooked bones.


No - who said anything about cooked? I assumed we were all talking about raw here. Of course no cooked bones! Ever!

If that's true (no bones at all until adult teeth come in) it makes me wonder how pups in the wild get on with eating meat, etc... you know, biologically, there isn't much of a difference there. Wild pups eat meat - off bones.



JulieK1967 said:


> My vet also said no bones until my puppy's adult teeth are in. His concern is that a chipped tooth can lead to an infection in the root that will create problems with adult teeth. I've been giving Molly bully sticks since she was about 15 weeks old.


Can't they also break a tooth on a bully stick or toy or any other thing?

This vet actually recommends marrow bones for loosening puppy milk teeth and while she is strong against raw diets/at home diets, she makes no mention of puppies having a tooth infection/breaking their teeth... http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html

We have always given our dogs marrow bones with no trouble at all.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

OliveSheprador said:


> This vet actually recommends marrow bones for loosening puppy milk teeth and while she is strong against raw diets/at home diets, she makes no mention of puppies having a tooth infection/breaking their teeth... http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html


I agree with a lot of what she said about raw diets. It's the same reason I won't do it. I feel like I am not educated enough to make the right decisions. I trust TOTW more than any online raw feeding guides. 

I don't understand her praise for Purina though. Many of their dry foods contain CORN as the first ingredient. First five ingredients in Dog Chow:

Whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), meat and bone meal

Purina Pro Plan has good ingredients but at the price you might as well go with something better.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

HerdersForMe said:


> I agree with a lot of what she said about raw diets. It's the same reason I won't do it. *I feel like I am not educated enough to make the right decisions. I trust TOTW more than any online raw feeding guides. *
> 
> I don't understand her praise for Purina though. Many of their dry foods contain CORN as the first ingredient. First five ingredients in Dog Chow:
> 
> ...


I agree with you (on the raw) - I feed Blue Wilderness in my home and would never really consider feeding a lower quality food unless I was strapped for cash, and even then I wouldn't choose a food with corn, soy, or wheat.... I feed the occasional RMB, but don't attempt full raw for exactly this reason.

I also agree with you on the bit about commercial foods - who knows her personal reasons for sticking behind Purina specifically (a brand I personally feel is among the worst) - but the big take-away I get from this article and from talking with vets and other dog foodies and through my own research/opinion is that you can't group all kibble & commercial food together in one big lump of evil - so many are "anti kibble" enthusiasts - but a well-crafted, high quality commercial food is not the same as a low quality, filler food - and even though I've done my research, these HQ foods are more nutritionally sound and balanced than what I trust myself to concoct. It's not just about convienience - it's about leaving canine nutrition in the hands of trusted professionals and not boldly assuming I can online-research my way into the same level of understanding. I'm sure I can't - and personally, I would be offended and out-right disturbed & concerned too, if someone thought they could get the same education online for free and it would equal or surpass my professional training and education...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OliveSheprador said:


> This vet actually recommends marrow bones for loosening puppy milk teeth and while she is strong against raw diets/at home diets, she makes no mention of puppies having a tooth infection/breaking their teeth... http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html


Wow, that's a cranky rant. Humans don't need nutritionists to eat a balanced diet, I doubt dogs' nutritional requirements are so much more complicated. If they ever made a "complete and balanced" people kibble, I wouldn't trust it as a sole diet. Real food is always going to be better for you than processed food. I'm sure she's seen the results from feeding a badly-done raw diet fairly often as a vet. Still, if I thought my vet was thinking of me as me a cultish, stupid, crazy hippie for feeding something other than Purina or Eukanuba (it sounds like she thinks the "fancier" brands are just as bad as raw), she wouldn't be my vet for long. Maybe she should put a warning sign on the door so she wouldn't have to be annoyed by "crazies".

But, yeah, even if I could do raw, I'd probably still feed some kibble. . .kind of like a multivitamin, lol.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Wow, that's a cranky rant. Humans don't need nutritionists to eat a balanced diet, I doubt dogs' nutritional requirements are so much more complicated. If they ever made a "complete and balanced" people kibble, I wouldn't trust it as a sole diet. Real food is always going to be better for you than processed food. I'm sure she's seen the results from feeding a badly-done raw diet fairly often as a vet. Still, if I thought my vet was thinking of me as me a cultish, stupid, crazy hippie for feeding something other than Purina or Eukanuba (it sounds like she thinks the "fancier" brands are just as bad as raw), she wouldn't be my vet for long. Maybe she should put a warning sign on the door so she wouldn't have to be annoyed by "crazies".
> 
> But, yeah, even if I could do raw, I'd probably still feed some kibble. . .kind of like a multivitamin, lol.


The amusing part is, most people do NOT eat a proper diet. Most major health issues in humans are partly or mostly due to poor diet. Even the leading cause of death, cardiovascular disease, is heavily linked to diet. It's not as easy to run experiments on humans hence you don't hear "Group A lived 10 years longer because they ate this diet as opposed to Group B...". But with dogs those kind of tests have been done. 

And the thing about dogs is that it is so simple to feed them a balanced diet. It's already there, packaged for you in a bag. Yet people still insist on creating their own dogs' diets like they are nutritional experts even though many barely understand their OWN nutritional needs. I'm sure most posting on these forums who do raw diet do it well, but the forums only make a very small percentage of dog owners. There has got to be so many out there feeding their dogs poorly and causing unnecessary health problems and early deaths.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Wow, that's a cranky rant. Humans don't need nutritionists to eat a balanced diet, I doubt dogs' nutritional requirements are so much more complicated. If they ever made a "complete and balanced" people kibble, I wouldn't trust it as a sole diet. Real food is always going to be better for you than processed food. I'm sure she's seen the results from feeding a badly-done raw diet fairly often as a vet. Still, if I thought my vet was thinking of me as me a cultish, stupid, crazy hippie for feeding something other than Purina or Eukanuba (it sounds like she thinks the "fancier" brands are just as bad as raw), she wouldn't be my vet for long. Maybe she should put a warning sign on the door so she wouldn't have to be annoyed by "crazies".
> 
> But, yeah, even if I could do raw, I'd probably still feed some kibble. . .kind of like a multivitamin, lol.


with raw, the vitamins are in the organs....the omega threes are in the fish you feed...or the salmon oil you give....

and to herdersforme......i do not mean to sound snarky....but in all truth....many, tho i cannot speak for all, do become experts or at the very least, extremely well informed about nutrition, both canine and human.

things is, we generally get fed up with the ingredients in kibble and then we realise it's a processed food....and why would i feed my kids processed food....i wouldn't...so why would i feed my dogs processed food.

when i started raw, like many who have come before me, i read and studied.....for about a year before i made the leap.

my dogs' blood work is fine....my dogs are in great shape...besides that, there are so many misconceptions out there concerning raw....

i hate to say this, but kibble has only been around for about 100 years....and only 60 years in a bag....

raw has been around for tens of thousands of years...

read orijen's white paper....this is a pretty good quality kibble company's paper:

http://files.championpetfoods.com/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf

there may be no real studies about raw, but there are tens of thousands of people feeding raw....which, in and of itself, is a kind of study. there are 18,000 members of a yahoo raw feeding list. that is no small amount.

for that vet, who was cited....to say what she said....i can't even begin to tell you how wrong she is...she is THAT wrong...

people will feed what people will feed...but please don't disrespect raw feeding until you've done it for as long as those of us who do it every day, year in year out....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Most people don't eat properly BECAUSE they eat too much processed food, they've been taught that food comes in a bag or a box or a tray. If they ate real food they'd be eating properly. I'm not going to say that someone who eats only Total cereal every day of his life will be healthy just because it has all the proper vitamins and minerals. I just don't think it's healthy to eat the same thing every single meal every single day for years at a time, whether you're a dog or a human. Yeah, I feed my dogs kibble, because it's cheap and easy (and I have a terrible time handling raw meat). But I make sure they get real food, too. So I don't trust any vet who says that dogs should eat only one brand of dog food their entire lives and you should never feed them any "people food".

I eat TV dinners because they're cheap and easy. But I don't pretend they're healthy just because it says "Healthy Choice" on the label. And if any doctor told me that eating nothing but TV dinners is perfectly fine, I wouldn't trust that doctor.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

MagicRe said:


> please don't disrespect raw feeding until you've done it for as long as those of us who do it every day, year in year out....


As someone who started off with researching & raw feeding my cat, I can tell you right now the knowledge you have to understand is immense and at times overwhelming - calcium phosphorous ratios, protein amount, organ/bone/muscle meat ratios, taurine (and taurine deficiency), minerals, vitamins (which all start to deplete as soon as meat is cut, by the way) - variety of protein sources, calories, etc etc. I don't have a lab to test for these kinds of things (do you?) - how can I be sure they're truly getting the proper nutrition that's required? Simply looking at your pet just isn't enough for me, which is what many on the raw forums etc seem to rely on along with minimal vet visits. I have tried it, MagicRe - and I can tell you, it's very hard. To those who say it's easy - it makes me wonder if they're really aware of what they're doing. 

After going that route, it became far too stressful wondering all the time if the meat I gave had enough taurine, or if the cat ate enough bone, or if she ate fish or egg white would it counter-act the other nutrients... these are all real issues every raw feeder has to be aware of, and if you aren't aware of it, you aren't informed, IMO. 

After going through it, I'd much rather leave my pet's food in the hands of a trusted qualified professional. 

Were none of your children fed commercial baby food? I was - I was raised on it, and I turned out fine. We need to get away from thinking "processed food = evil". The real issue is less generalized than that. 

Full blown raw diet is too much for most people. I know - I've tried it. *I* don't have a feline (or canine) nutrition degree. And - despite what many people say, and however well intentioned their actions are in self-research - most raw feeders don't hold that degree either. What's more dangerous is that those who are self-taught in this manner are so quick to dismiss the warnings, views and stories of _professionals with experience_, in strong bias of their raw diet lifestyles.

It's so arrogant, too - it's like going on WebMD or some other medical sites and doing research online and then going to your doctor saying, "I've done some research and I've treated some illnesses at home so I'm now qualified to treat illnesses". Sorry - but you are still not a doctor!

I am all for education and learning as much as you can from credible sources - but we need to be careful. Anyone can put anything on the internet and sign it "D.V.M.". Do I think they're all doing this? No - some vets I've met support raw, but most don't and they're not to be dismissed as self-promoting, money-grubbing vets, either. 

Some people have this idea that those who work as nutritionists for pet food companies or vets that treat animals are actually working in a secretly nefarious way - to harm, instead of help - or they're all working off old research, old knowledge, and they don't continue to learn, develop, or advance their education within their career - and that may be true for some, but it's certainly not true for all. Hence why better food, and better formulas, are always being created. 



HerdersForMe said:


> And the thing about dogs is that it is so simple to feed them a balanced diet. It's already there, packaged for you in a bag. Yet people still insist on creating their own dogs' diets like they are nutritional experts even though many barely understand their OWN nutritional needs. I'm sure most posting on these forums who do raw diet do it well, but the forums only make a very small percentage of dog owners. There has got to be so many out there feeding their dogs poorly and causing unnecessary health problems and early deaths.


So, SO true!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Commercial baby food is minimally processed. It's just pureed fruits, veggies, or meat--nothing added (except a bit of cornstarch for thickening in some brands). It can't be compared to pet food.

I would think that anybody bothering to feed their pet raw (which is generally expensive and time-consuming, and much, much less convenient than kibble) would be fairly well-educated as to nutritional guidelines. I would like to know how many raw feeders are doing it in a way that causes nutritional deficiencies, because I just don't see it being a common problem. A larger problem would be people who feed their dog massive amounts of store brand food, supplemented with french fries and Cheetos.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I would like to know how many raw feeders are doing it in a way that causes nutritional deficiencies, because I just don't see it being a common problem. A larger problem would be people who feed their dog massive amounts of store brand food, supplemented with french fries and Cheetos.


No - many people in the raw community don't often talk about failures, but vets who treat the pets have plenty of these stories to share and their stories are continiously snuffed out.

Many people who feed raw are also quick to shut out any problem a dog/cat may experience on raw as "human error". Well, sorry but there's _lots_ of room for human error.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I hardly think the vets' stories are "snuffed out". . .if I Google "raw dog food problems", there are plenty of stories to go around. Of course, there's no more proof those are truthful than the success stories, so who knows what's true and what's not.

I still think store brand generic food and french fries are a bigger problem. But I suppose those people don't take their pets to the vet very often, if at all.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

OliveSheprador said:


> No - many people in the raw community don't often talk about failures, but vets who treat the pets have plenty of these stories to share and their stories are continiously snuffed out.
> 
> Many people who feed raw are also quick to shut out any problem a dog/cat may experience on raw as "human error". Well, sorry but there's _lots_ of room for human error.


people choke on peanuts...dogs eat socks....one friend of mine had a dog who ate sweatpants...and consequently died.

there are risks to everything....even kibble fed dogs have been known to choke on kibble. it happens. such is life and we should be prepared for that...

i do have a medical degree and i do have years of research under my belt for both human and canine.

i never fed my kid commercial baby food and i never had it either. i came from a 'from scratch' kind of home and i live that way, too.

i have studied ingredients. i have studied the ratios. and the people whom i know...have done the same. and what they don't know, they ask. because we have a network of very well versed people....

when i talk to my vet, he admits that he has not had much in the way of nutrition....but he can't believe how gorgous and healthy my dogs are.

to me, he's being irresponsible...to his own dogs and to his patients...especially those of us who feed raw. 

the thing is...it's fine if you want to feed kibble. it's fine if you want to home cook.
but again, please do not disrespect raw feeding.....because it is a legitimate way of feeding.

and, by the way, read the ingredients on your dog food bag...can you decipher every single one of them? i can. consequently my dogs don't eat processed food. neither do i. neither do my children.

please don't lump us all into the same category of those wild hippy fad raw feeders.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I hardly think the vets' stories are "snuffed out". . .if I Google "raw dog food problems", there are plenty of stories to go around.


What I mean is, if I go to a raw forum and say "my pet had a problem on raw!" they are going to tell me "it's your fault" - you're not going to find there the people who have had problems. it's not conducive to that kind of environment - it's biased. Unlike my vet's office - who is very open-minded and forward-thinking and understands the potential benefits of raw but cautions against it as she has seen too many "operator error" incidents.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, it's nice your vet is open-minded and (hopefully?) has had some training in nutrition. I think most vets are like the vet who wrote that article. And very few go for supplemental nutrition training.

You do know the vet who wrote the article would probably call you a crazy hippie for feeding your dog TOTW, right?


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

MagicRe said:


> i have studied ingredients. i have studied the ratios. and the people whom i know...have done the same. and what they don't know, they ask. because we have a network of very well versed people....
> 
> please don't lump us all into the same category of those wild hippy fad raw feeders.



COOL - well you are in a minority, I feel. Actually, I know - from speaking to my vet - it seems far too many people hop on the "raw bandwagon", start throwing down meat and end up in trouble.

It's cool - just don't lump all of us who choose to feed high quality processed food into the same category as those who feed a grocery-store bought grain-filled kibble.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

OliveSheprador said:


> No - many people in the raw community don't often talk about failures, but vets who treat the pets have plenty of these stories to share and their stories are continiously snuffed out.
> 
> Many people who feed raw are also quick to shut out any problem a dog/cat may experience on raw as "human error". Well, sorry but there's _lots_ of room for human error.


because many of us do not have veterinary support...and our vets do not understand the lab values of a healthy raw fed dog....the only thing we do have is our forums....and discussions about what is going wrong, if anything.

most well transitioned dogs who are fed a variety of proteins, bone and some organ do very well.....the lab values on my dogs are just fine. my vet is extremely surprised...

we go to our forums for help when things fail....many times it could be user error...but many times it's a signal that the dog is sick and it has nothing to do with raw.

when a dog exhibits signs of cancer, for instance...weight loss for no reason, lumps, lethargy, etc....first thing that is advised is to to the vet....

i've seen many vets advise feeding raw to a cancer dog, because sugar feeds cancer...this is also true of humans with cancer. many of my oncologist friends advise against sugar.

dog food is filled with sugar....so either these people start to home cook for their animals or come to the raw side, hoping they can give their dogs just a little bit longer.

again, i'm sorry to say that you have your head filled with quite a bit of misinformation...and that's too bad. because you will be yet another voice that condemns raw without having done it.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Well, it's nice your vet is open-minded and (hopefully?) has had some training in nutrition. I think most vets are like the vet who wrote that article. And very few go for supplemental nutrition training.
> 
> You do know the vet who wrote the article would probably call you a crazy hippie for feeding your dog TOTW, right?


I don't feed TOTW. I don't feed Purina, either (which is what she endorses) - I think I addressed this issue earlier of "takeaway" messages in this post - but like all things, we must choose what resonates and what doesn't - the takeaway message I feel went beyond her own opinion of what particular brand of food is best.



MagicRe said:


> again, i'm sorry to say that you have your head filled with quite a bit of misinformation...and that's too bad. because you will be yet another voice that condemns raw without having done it.


Sorry - you must have not read my post. I *have* fed raw. Thank you.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It's also true that if a raw-fed dog gets sick, the anti-raw people will go "ZOMG! That evil raw feeding must have done it!". And if a kibble-fed dog gets sick, the raw advocates will go "ZOMG! That evil kibble must have done it!". But, ya know, sometimes dogs just get sick. Unless it's an allergy/sensitivity or a known nutritional deficiency, it's probably not the food that caused it.

Also, feeding a dog raw IS easier than feeding a cat raw. You don't have to worry so much about mineral balances, and fish and taurine aren't issues for dogs.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

Willowy said:


> You don't have to worry so much about mineral balances...


Silly....

Puppies are well known to have joint and bone problems from improper calcium-phosphorous ratios. Don't tell me mineral balance isn't important.



> fish and taurine aren't issues for dogs


Actually, taurine _is_ an issue for dogs -it's why they've started including taurine in dog foods, not just cat foods. Even though it's produced within the dog's body from synthesizing other proteins (whereas cats are unable to do so), taurine deficiencies cause problems for dogs and are most prevalent actually when dogs are fed low quality foods without enough animal meat (the natural source of taurine). To say it's a non-issue is misleading and false.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

I didn't mean to start any arguments. My point was there are a lot of people out there who do alternative diets because they think they are doing good for their dog but they really are doing worse. I did mention that there are people who do it right so don't think I'm targeting the idea of a raw diet as bad. It becomes a problem when it is done wrong and the owner refuses to believe their alternative diet plan is the cause of any problems. 

I would much rather feed my dogs a high quality dry food and know they are getting proper nutrition than attempt to feed raw because I'm not an expert on raw feeding. Of course it can be done right, and when done right it is probably better for the dog than doing kibble. But I don't think reading a few online raw feeding guides would make me knowledgeable enough to pull it off properly. But I would encourage those who aren't very well informed on canine nutrition to not attempt it. I'm sure most on these forums who are doing it have probably done a lot of research and know what they are doing and their dogs are very healthy. I'm not targeting that group of people.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yes, but fussing with the exact taurine content isn't as crucial for dogs. And while you do need to worry about the calcium/phosphorus ratio for growing puppies, well, I've seen flaming discussions about which kibble is right for giant puppies, too. So can't say that's an easy out. I still say you don't have to worry "as much" about mineral balances as you do with cats.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

My dog has food sensitivities though we're not sure to what exactly. We found a food that she can digest properly and have gone from there. With that said, I have never had a bad experience with giving her cow hooves. She loves them and they have never upset her stomach or broken or chipped her teeth. She's fine with some brands of bully sticks, but others (one from Bark! in particular) gave her diarrhea for a day or so.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

OliveSheprador said:


> Silly....
> 
> Puppies are well known to have joint and bone problems from improper calcium-phosphorous ratios. Don't tell me mineral balance isn't important.
> 
> ...


It is far far less of an issue for dogs than it is for cats. If you learn any small amount of dog nutrition that would be plainly obvious.

As for people bashing raw and kibble i have seen far far more peoples pets sick from toys and kibble based incidents that i have raw.
We have a pretty big raw feeding movement here and have for years and years because people are not interested in paying big money to big corporations for poor return and i have never know anyone (and i have known lots and mentored lots) who has just started throwing meat down and hoped for the best.
I have been feeding raw for 20 years my parents 40 years before that and so on. Kibble in England has only been alailable for about the past 50 years and that says a lot to me.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

katielou said:


> It is far far less of an issue for dogs than it is for cats. If you learn any small amount of dog nutrition that would be plainly obvious.


Again, to reiterate: *To say it's a non-issue is misleading and false.*


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

OliveSheprador said:


> Again, to reiterate: *To say it's a non-issue is misleading and false.*


Direct me to where i said that?


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

katielou said:


> Direct me to where i said that?



YOU didn't - it was in my reply to Willowy, which is why I quoted her.

Don't just butt-in if you're not going to follow along with the discussion.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

OliveSheprador said:


> YOU didn't - it was in my reply to Willowy, which is why I quoted her.
> 
> Don't just butt-in if you're not going to follow along with the discussion.


Oh i followed along.
I think both of what you said id wrong which is why i said what i did which is somewhere in the middle of people who read this thread and get completly the wrong idea about feeding their dog.

There is no need to quote be and tell me something that i have already said.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Most people don't eat properly BECAUSE they eat too much processed food, they've been taught that food comes in a bag or a box or a tray. If they ate real food they'd be eating properly. I'm not going to say that someone who eats only Total cereal every day of his life will be healthy just because it has all the proper vitamins and minerals. I just don't think it's healthy to eat the same thing every single meal every single day for years at a time, whether you're a dog or a human. Yeah, I feed my dogs kibble, because it's cheap and easy (and I have a terrible time handling raw meat). But I make sure they get real food, too. *So I don't trust any vet who says that dogs should eat only one brand of dog food their entire lives and you should never feed them any "people food".*
> 
> I eat TV dinners because they're cheap and easy. But I don't pretend they're healthy just because it says "Healthy Choice" on the label. And if any doctor told me that eating nothing but TV dinners is perfectly fine, I wouldn't trust that doctor.


Honest to God, I have to laugh at the bolded statement. People, vet or not, tend to freak if you feed your dog "people food", but insist their dog food contains "real chicken" or "real beef". 
And as far as the vet that wrote that article...if she could see through her own frothing, she would see she pretty much contradicted herself...
"_You can't do this with dogs. They are not vegetarians. Don't try to burden your dog with your own emotional responses. They have no moral and ethical objection to good red meat._"
So...which is it? Feeding one single brand for the life of the dog, without "unbalancing" it ("_If you are feeding a nutritionally balanced commercial dog food, and you start adding table scraps, raw or cooked meat, chunks of broccoli or carrots, cottage cheese or yogurt, you are unbalancing it. Don't do that, at least don't do it very much._", or giving your dog his non-emotional or non-ethical objection to "good red meat"?



Willowy said:


> It's also true that if a raw-fed dog gets sick, the anti-raw people will go "ZOMG! That evil raw feeding must have done it!". And if a kibble-fed dog gets sick, the raw advocates will go "ZOMG! That evil kibble must have done it!". But, ya know, sometimes dogs just get sick. Unless it's an allergy/sensitivity or a known nutritional deficiency, it's probably not the food that caused it.


Bingo.
I believe a good diet for the individual dog will bring that dog to its fullest GENETIC potential of good health. If I had a dog who had two parents and three grandparents die at 5-6 years old from cancer, and my dog developed cancer at 3 years old, it wouldn't be fair to blame any diet IMO. Genetics is genetics.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Honest to God, I have to laugh at the bolded statement. People, vet or not, tend to freak if you feed your dog "people food", but insist their dog food contains "real chicken" or "real beef".


Yeah they do. But vets should know better. Old country vets know this (as my vet said "good healthy scraps are fine, as long as they don't make up more than half of their diet") but the newer vets seem to be a little more hysterical on the subject.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Yeah they do. But vets should know better. Old country vets know this (as my vet said "good healthy scraps are fine, as long as they don't make up more than half of their diet") but the newer vets seem to be a little more hysterical on the subject.


I often wonder how my dogs have survived if the city/newer vets opinions are to be believed.


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

Well that went off topic!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Yeah they do. But vets should know better. Old country vets know this (as my vet said "good healthy scraps are fine, as long as they don't make up more than half of their diet") but the newer vets seem to be a little more hysterical on the subject.


I don't deal well with hysterics in general. If someone is so anti-raw that they want to get hysterical on me, I don't really tend to listen to them...the same goes for pro-raw. If in passing someone hears that my dog got a milkbone from the gas station and acts like I am killing my dogs, it goes in one ear and out the other. I don't know if I just lucked out, or if I put that sense out for others, but my conventional vet sells Science Diet. They have never pushed it on me, ever. The only time I've ever heard it mentioned was they sent me a little flier telling me about J/D because Dude is arthritic. No high pressure, no sales tactics, no saying "if you feed anything but SD your dog will die". I respect that, a lot. And I also respect the fact they carry it, because I do know there are some dogs out there who do very well on SD. And if the dogs are doing well, and are happy, and the owners are happy, then why shouldn't *I* be happy for them? My holistic vet LOVES people that feed raw, but she also understands not everyone is comfortable doing so. They might have bought into scare tactics, or are queasy about handling raw meat, or think it's too expensive, or too much of a hassle...so she also carries a nice line of kibble (Go! Natural, TOTW, Merrick, etc). I respect _anyone_ who feeds what they feel is best, and doesn't bombard anyone who feels differently with negative remarks and threats of "what I do is best, and you're killing your dogs".



lewiswalks said:


> Well that went off topic!


It did 
When my dogs were pups with milk teeth, I offered raw bones but none really took to them until their adult teeth were in. I don't know if baby teeth are more sensitive or what, but none of them really turned onto chewing things that weren't soft (like shoes, lol) until about 5-6 months old. My pups got frozen black kongs with yogurt, peanut butter, or other semi-liquid goodies. The kongs were then frozen overnight and voila. Insta-teething ring. As very young babies, they got fed twice per day with a frozen kong at lunchtime, and sometimes I would fill them with a mixture of food ration (kibble, canned, ground raw, whatever) mixed with yogurt, and frozen. All gave it two thumbs (dewclaws?) up.


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