# Border Collie or Yellow Lab? Advice Needed



## DanAxez (Jun 27, 2011)

Hello there,

I'm looking into getting my first ever dog, I've took a small part of my time to research into the dogs. I've found that the recommended amount of exercise for a border collie can be up to roughly 2 - 4 hours a day?! I'm really interested in getting one however, if I'm not keeping it happy I don't want it to be upset if one hour walks a day isn't enough! This is were a yellow lab comes in, I've found along with the Golden Retrievers these are brilliant house dogs with much less needed exercise (1 hour a day). Am I not suitable to care for a Border Collie if I'm limited to walking it 1 hour a day with home attention, and is the Yellow lab more for me? 

First time on the forums, feedback appreciated, thank you!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would say no to the border collie. They need a LOT compared to most dogs. With border collies you're not just looking at a dog that will be happy at all with just walks. They need much more to do. Do they all need 2-4 hours of exercise a day? No, but they need some substantial interaction (like agility or another dog sport) and lots and lots of time. If you really do want a BC, I'd recommend a rescue that is an adult and lower key. They're out there but the breed in general is very intense. 

Why do you want a border collie? That's a good place to start.


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## DanAxez (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for the comment.

I want one because when I was younger I always visited a local farm that cared for younger ones, ever since my memories of them was positive. Over the past dew days however I've noticed a yellow lab may be a dog which would be very happy living with my family and myself. regular exercise and love for the dog would make him or her a very happy dog, right?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

DanAxez said:


> Thanks for the comment.
> 
> I want one because when I was younger I always visited a local farm that cared for younger ones, ever since my memories of them was positive. Over the past dew days however I've noticed a yellow lab may be a dog which would be very happy living with my family and myself. regular exercise and love for the dog would make him or her a very happy dog, right?


On a farm, Border Collies have a lot of work to do to keep them happy. As a housedog, not so much, and this can make them neurotic.

Labs and Goldens can be excellent family dogs, but it takes a lot of patience to get through their extremely annoying puppy stage (which usually lasts until they're 18 months-2 years old). They chew. A lot. And nip. A lot. And are crazy hyper. 

What do you want in a dog? What kind of dog experience do you have? What kind of home situation do you have (fenced yard, anyone who stays at home, etc.)? Are you dedicated enough to walk the dog an hour a day NO MATTER WHAT, even when it's rainy or snowy or insanely cold?


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## Kaja (Jun 24, 2011)

Border Collies DO need a lot of exercise and a job to do. We have a Border Collie/Terrier mix and she's a handful! But we have a spacious fenced in backyard so she gets to go outside and run around several times a day. I do plan on walking her too, but we are still working on our leash walking so it's going to be a while before I can take her out on a regular basis. Labs are great family dogs too. I don't know about how much exercise Labs need, but I think it all depends on whether you are looking to get a puppy or an adult dog. All puppies need a lot of exercise! You could always consider a mix too. A Border Collie/Lab would be a great dog!


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## DanAxez (Jun 27, 2011)

Willowy said:


> On a farm, Border Collies have a lot of work to do to keep them happy. As a housedog, not so much, and this can make them neurotic.
> 
> Labs and Goldens can be excellent family dogs, but it takes a lot of patience to get through their extremely annoying puppy stage (which usually lasts until they're 18 months-2 years old). They chew. A lot. And nip. A lot. And are crazy hyper.
> 
> What do you want in a dog? What kind of dog experience do you have? What kind of home situation do you have (fended yard, anyone who stays at home, etc.)? Are you dedicated enough to walk the dog an hour a day NO MATTER WHAT, even when it's rainy or snowy or insanely cold?


Hello!

What do I want in a dog, I want interaction, love and fun with one! My partner has a dog and I love her to pieces, I seem to be the only one who she pays more interest into just from seeing her twice a week! I want to be a good parent towards a dog because I believe every dog deserves a happy life  And yes, I say I will walk him or her a hour a day with confidence because I do day to day muscular and cardio fitness anyway, so going on walks would just add to my cardio sessions. My experience is limited, although as you know I have some from seeing my partners dog. I live in a regular house, 3 bedrooms etc with a clean secure garden and I am the youngest of a family of 5!  Thank you for your response.



Kaja said:


> Border Collies DO need a lot of exercise and a job to do. We have a Border Collie/Terrier mix and she's a handful! But we have a spacious fenced in backyard so she gets to go outside and run around several times a day. I do plan on walking her too, but we are still working on our leash walking so it's going to be a while before I can take her out on a regular basis. Labs are great family dogs too. I don't know about how much exercise Labs need, but I think it all depends on whether you are looking to get a puppy or an adult dog. All puppies need a lot of exercise! You could always consider a mix too. A Border Collie/Lab would be a great dog!


That would be great, I would have to look into mixes and their expectations. Thank you for sharing, give your border a hug for us! Cheers


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Don't underestimate the exercise requirements of a lab. My black lab walked six miles per day or more and, when he didn't he became restless and a tad irritable. Regular off-lead runs supplemented the walks. He kept up that regimen until he was just shy of 14.

Labs were bred for endurance.


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## pomergranate (Jun 20, 2011)

wen we were dog shopping we to got in this kind of situation. i need a dog because of seasonal depression problems (the joys of living in alaska *sigh*) and we live in an apartment that is quite small. i wanted a lab cuz thats what i was raised with, my husband wants a GS cuz thats what he was raised with. in the end after much research we settled on a pom because they are low key, and dont need much exercise. my mom has 2 labs, one never chewed stuff up as a puppy (sid the female) but her son buddie oh boy he is nearly 3 and still chews things up. good luck on your dog search, dogs101 really helped us decided maybe it can help you (i dont know thier website i just watch them on animal planet when i can)


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## DanAxez (Jun 27, 2011)

RonE said:


> Don't underestimate the exercise requirements of a lab. My black lab walked six miles per day or more and, when he didn't he became restless and a tad irritable. Regular off-lead runs supplemented the walks. He kept up that regimen until he was just shy of 14.
> 
> Labs were bred for endurance.


Really! That's very interesting, thanks for letting me know, that has helped a lot!


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## Maggie Girl (Feb 27, 2011)

The dogs101 thing is on the animal planet website. It is a good resource, I agree.


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## DanAxez (Jun 27, 2011)

pomergranate said:


> wen we were dog shopping we to got in this kind of situation. i need a dog because of seasonal depression problems (the joys of living in alaska *sigh*) and we live in an apartment that is quite small. i wanted a lab cuz thats what i was raised with, my husband wants a GS cuz thats what he was raised with. in the end after much research we settled on a pom because they are low key, and dont need much exercise. my mom has 2 labs, one never chewed stuff up as a puppy (sid the female) but her son buddie oh boy he is nearly 3 and still chews things up. good luck on your dog search, dogs101 really helped us decided maybe it can help you (i dont know thier website i just watch them on animal planet when i can)


Yes Dogs101 has been a great help to me, I will look into them again tomorrow. Funny stories with the labs, if I get one I sure hope mine doesn't chew the house up, although I wouldn't be too angry


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Labs WILL chew, they were bred to be mouthy. With proper management they shouldn't wreck your house, but it's not easy! Really, any dog can be a good pet with enough time, work, and management. Many people aren't really prepared to do all that work, they just want to sit and watch TV with the dog at their feet, and that won't fly with most dogs until they're elderly. If someone is committed to working with their dog and dealing with things that come up, it'll work out. But most people overestimate their level of commitment. That's why Labs are so common in shelters. . .


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

Coming from the Mom of 2 Border Collies, if in doubt, do without! Border Collies are NOT for everyone, and as others have said a BC on a farm is VERY different then a BC who is suppose to be fine with a hour walk a day! My boys not only have each other(and their Puggie brother)to play with but we also have 3 daily walks of at least 45 min, and a good 2-3 hours of running in the park! (That is for my 4 year old and 4 month old, so dont doubt an adult's need for exercise!)


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

I want/ed a border collie so bad! I love everything about that breed and I love everyone I've met (I work at a doggie daycare so I meet a lot)! However, these are dogs that NEED a job. If you don't give them one (almost constantly, might I add) they will find one for themselves and chances are that you won't like that job. I would suggest staying away from a border collie.

Yes, labs will need a lot of attention too but they won't need anywhere near as much. Mixes are good too :] I think what you should do (and you may have already but I haven't read the whole thread) is figure out how much time you have to spend with your potential dog per day and then figure out if you're in a good place to get a larger, energetic dog regardless of the breed. My doberman puppy is as "chill" as can be and definitely the most laid-back of his litter. I have it lucky with him, I only have to entertain and play with him for about 5-6 hours each day whereas his littermates need more.

Edit: Another thing to consider is that it is not suggested for puppies and adolescent dogs to go through "forced" exercise. Free running is fine but being run nonstop on a leash isn't good for their growth so if you get a puppy you wouldn't be able to do hour-long runs with it for a while. There is plenty of talk on the forms about this if you want to read into it.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

In general, I wouldn't recommend a BC for a first time dog owner, but that depends very much on the person. For people with spouses, children, full-time jobs, and very full lives, it's probably not a great choice, as a BC will become very bored. On the other hand, a very dedicated owner can successfully manage a BC, even if it's their first dog. On a case-by-case basis, I think BC's can make great dogs for _some_ first time owners.

I'm a first-time dog owner with a BC mix. I work during the days, but my hours are pretty flexible and I can usually bring work home with me. The key is, no matter how tired I am at the end of the day, she has spent the day in a crate and needs some 1-on-1 time with me. That usually means a walk, agility class, playing frisbee or ball, practicing tricks, etc. She does not take kindly to me flopping down on the couch and ignoring her, and I don't even own a TV. She also eats meals and treats from toys, which are mentally stimulating. BC's need physical exercise, but mental exercise is just as important, if not more important. If this sounds like something you can handle and something you want to take on, then go for it. 

Laurelin is right, though. The question "why do you want a BC?" is a good one. If you're looking for loyalty and companionship, any breed can provide this. If you're looking for extreme athletic ability and intelligence (in short, a challenge), then a BC might be right for you.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Ditto about BCs from Mutts. Individuals may vary, but the average BC is probably too much for a first time owner.

On the other hand, an adult Lab can be an excellent experience for a first time owner, because they are intelligent but tremendously forgiving of mistakes. A Lab will adapt to your life, even sleeping 18 hours a day if needed, but you do want to learn about them, and learn how to train them. A rescue organization can help you with adoption.

Experienced Lab owners joke about Lab puppies, because they nip, draw blood, chew everything, seem indestructible, but will destroy everything around them.... but they are just so cute! 

I'm biased, but I believe that a trained BC is an untiring worker, but a trained Lab is an unbelievable companion.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm in the process of getting a BC, I hope to bring one home next spring if all goes to plan. I also work full time and I imagine that will be a big challenge. Already, I'm getting myself into the 'BC swing' lol. I'm planning on doing the routine for a few months before the BC gets here just as a last test for myself that I can stick to the schedule long term. 

I already have one very high energy dog though so I imagine it won't be as big of a change. I'm already getting up at 5 am to get Mia her exercise before I go to work. I'm already searching for a dog walker to exercise the dogs in the middle of the day while I'm gone. and I already spend 99% of my free time with the dogs. Long day today and I had to stay overtime (which is rare) but I came home and played with Mia for 2 hours just after. I love it, but it's not always something I want to do. But I have to because my dog needs it. It's even moreso with a BC. 

BCs are to me for people who are very into dogs. They're not for a casual owner who just wants a pet. They're great for people who love dog sports or love to train and just plain spend a ton of time interacting with their dog. I already do agility some (though I'm out at the moment). A BC appeals to me because they open a lot more doors as far as sports go that I can't do with the papillons- like herding and disc, etc. 

I definitely recommend you meet tons of BCs if you can before settling on the breed. They're very unique dogs.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RonE said:


> Don't underestimate the exercise requirements of a lab.


Seriously.

Less than a work-bred BC, but probably not as much as you may think. Labs and Goldens go through a difficult phase that lasts until they are too creaky to get up and get into mischief. That's not to say they aren't great companion dogs, just that they require a great deal of input from their humans. Put the necessary time into a Lab and you will be repaid one hundredfold. Neglect one and you will be repaid one thousandfold.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

I personally wouldn't recommend either. Definitely not the border collie for reasons listed above. Labs are great but they stay puppies for a long time... you may get frustrated. They also have a ton of energy.. 
I grew up with boston terriers. We always had 2 at a time so they'd have a buddy. They are very in tune with emotions, and are very comforting when you're sick or have had a bad day. They can be pretty crazy, especially with licking and jumping, but they are small so this never bothered me. Because they are small, they do not require a lot of outdoor exercise (of course they should have some though!). 








I also think Staffordshire Bull Terriers are great little dogs. They are small but muscular and tough.


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## joe_g (Jun 29, 2011)

I would advise against a border collie unless you live on a farm or can spend at least two hours at the dog park everyday. They are the definition of a working dog and will become bored very quickly without something to do. At the very least anyone considering a border collie should have a fenced in yard and another dog. They are not meant to be calm, house dogs unlike some other collie breeds which do very well indoors.


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## puppylove18 (Jun 30, 2011)

RonE said:


> Don't underestimate the exercise requirements of a lab. My black lab walked six miles per day or more and, when he didn't he became restless and a tad irritable. Regular off-lead runs supplemented the walks. He kept up that regimen until he was just shy of 14.
> 
> Labs were bred for endurance.


We too have a Chocolate lab and I walk her 2-4 miles in the morning with about 30-45 min. play time around lunch in the back yard with her favorite toys and then a 2-3 mile walk at night. And she still has so much energy I have noticed if I don't get her walks in. Due to sickness either to me or one of my kids and I just do more back yard play she is very restless and seems to jump and chew a lot more then when she gets her walks in. Labs due have a lot of energy and love walks they also love routine my lab knows when play time is when it is time for walks and everything and when it is time to come inside for bed. She however is still working on being able to be inside off leash she just has so much energy that it is hard to have her running around inside so we are still working on that with her and hoping she will learn soon what inside manners are lol..


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

You've already gotten a lot of good advice but I'll toss in my 2 cents. I have had a bit of experience with a BC. My parents had one. Had, past tense. He needed a LOT of exercise and mental stimulation, more than they could offer. He was an amazing dog and I would've taken him if I could have. He was scary-smart. This dog probably would've figured out how to steal the car keys and go for a joy ride, just for something to do, had they kept him. 

Lab's, I know. Obviously, by my name. I've had them for 12 years and many of my friends have them also. I'm getting awfully curious as to what it's like to have a different breed. I didnt realize that there are dogs out there that arent mouthy, destructive, hyper, and all that. I'm used to it and just thought that's how it is  It doesnt bother me though. Not at all. I chose this breed because I wanted the 'perfect' family dog and I believe I've achieved that goal. They're loyal, loving, get along with other dog's and people. I think they're pretty easy to train, though I have nothing to compare it with. The grooming requirements are minimal, though they shed like crazy. I had one that was very laid back and required almost no exercise. Two out of the three I currently have, MUST get at least an hour of vigorous ball-throwing every evening. The third is fine without it, though she enjoys it also. They act like puppies until they're about 3, at least thats been my experience. I dont work, so I'm home all day. I would not recommend a lab to someone that needs to leave him alone on a regular basis. They love their people and want to be near you most of the time. Mine would be miserable if they were left alone all the time.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

All the labs I've met also have seemed to have a really strong desire to please their owners. Most of them are really sweet and loyal. I have a Pit Bull now and he is as sweet as can be, he listens really well... if I have a treat haha. So far he doesn't seem to have the same need to please me just because he wants to that I've seen with Labs, but maybe its because he is still a puppy. We'll see! I agree with Labmom that if you're going to be gone most of the day it probably isn't the right dog for you, however every dog is different so you never know! I still vote for boston terrier


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## puppylove18 (Jun 30, 2011)

katG said:


> All the labs I've met also have seemed to have a really strong desire to please their owners. Most of them are really sweet and loyal. I have a Pit Bull now and he is as sweet as can be, he listens really well... if I have a treat haha. So far he doesn't seem to have the same need to please me just because he wants to that I've seen with Labs, but maybe its because he is still a puppy. We'll see! I agree with Labmom that if you're going to be gone most of the day it probably isn't the right dog for you, however every dog is different so you never know! I still vote for boston terrier


That is very true about all the labs that I have met they want very much to please their owners. However we went threw a little bit where our son was very sick and we spent a lot of time at the hospital with him so our lab didn't get as much attention as normal and her behavior changed. She chewed a lot more got into things more and just didn't listen jumped a lot. Now that our son is doing better and we have his health under control with the help of specialists we are able to take her on two walks a day that add up to about 5-6 miles per day plus we play with her at lunch and she has flipped with her behavior I felt bad for not giving her the full attention she needed and should have gotten but I still spent time with her but it wasn't as much as it used to be which she was very used to. 
I have heard good things about boston terriers I have never owned one though. We have a lab and Chihuahuas and I love all of our dogs so does our kids. Even my hubby does who isn't really a dog person!


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

puppylove18 said:


> That is very true about all the labs that I have met they want very much to please their owners. However we went threw a little bit where our son was very sick and we spent a lot of time at the hospital with him so our lab didn't get as much attention as normal and her behavior changed. She chewed a lot more got into things more and just didn't listen jumped a lot. Now that our son is doing better and we have his health under control with the help of specialists we are able to take her on two walks a day that add up to about 5-6 miles per day plus we play with her at lunch and she has flipped with her behavior I felt bad for not giving her the full attention she needed and should have gotten but I still spent time with her but it wasn't as much as it used to be which she was very used to.
> I have heard good things about boston terriers I have never owned one though. We have a lab and Chihuahuas and I love all of our dogs so does our kids. Even my hubby does who isn't really a dog person!


How could anyone not be a dog person! lol


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

ok, my "4 cents" worth here......

ever see "Marley and Me"? expect that if you're not willing/able to give it adequate exercise/training....it's very much the norm that i've seen in my experiences w/ Labs....

as for the BC, i have 4 right now and have had 6 of my own along w/ "2 gaggles" of puppies and 4 fosters.....i spend, on average, 2 hrs a day at the dog club (i prefer there b/c i can determine the dogs that are w/ mine, plus they have a pool to play in to stay cool) playing ball, doing the odd trainings, and just hanging out.....my pack is w/ me pretty much 24/7, as they don't like being where i'm not (however, when i do leave them to home they do EXTREMELY well).....and in this time we are always doing mind games of some sort (find things, tricks, we used to "goose", etc).....they tend to be VERY thunder-phobic and that entails fireworks and backfiring of cars and any of those types of noises...and this can cause injury to the dog (one of mine tried going thru a sliding door--glass--and would have broke his neck if i hadn't been standing there to grab him...and this same dog caused about $1000 worth of damage trying to get behind the toilet during a storm)........also, as for being loving/affectionate? that they can be, but on their terms/time card...they're not generally cuddle bugs (of the 6 i've owned, i have 1 that cuddles a lot and 1 that will for short times--the rest have been loyal and loving and want to be w/ me but not real snugglers).....and, as for "pleasing their owners"? again, on their terms, but you better meet them 1/2 way and be totally fair...don't ask them to do something and then get in the way to "help", it's insulting and they just may "shut down"

anyway, i could go on and on....."shutting down" now


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Basically, if you live in the city & not on a farm/ranch/rual area I so not generally recommend a BC esp for a first time dog owner. Even a lab might be too much for you, I would go with a golden ot perhaps make a stop at your local shelter or rescue or visit www.petfinder.com for more info.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> Basically, _*if you live in the city & not on a farm/ranch/rual area*_ I so not generally recommend a BC esp for a first time dog owner. Even a lab might be too much for you, I would go with a golden ot perhaps make a stop at your local shelter or rescue or visit www.petfinder.com for more info.


this i really do not agree w/.....i know tons of BC's that are not only not on a ranch or rural area, but are great apt dogs....mine live in a 800 sq ft house w/ basically no yard and they do quite well.........as a 1st time dog, i agree completely, but if the person meets the requirements of the dog (plenty of exercise, mental stimulation, etc) the size of house/yard doesn't matter......and i know of a few neurotic Labs, Goldens even little dogs, cuz their needs were not met


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

tirluc said:


> this i really do not agree w/.....i know tons of BC's that are not only not on a ranch or rural area, but are great apt dogs....mine live in a 800 sq ft house w/ basically no yard and they do quite well.........as a 1st time dog, i agree completely, but if the person meets the requirements of the dog (plenty of exercise, mental stimulation, etc) the size of house/yard doesn't matter......and i know of a few neurotic Labs, Goldens even little dogs, cuz their needs were not met


TOTALLY agree with you! My boys(2 BCs and a Pug/x) do GREAT in my 750-ish squ ft. house with a fenced patio but not a yard because I take them on multiple runs/walks/play times a day!


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

DanAxez said:


> Hello there,
> 
> I'm looking into getting my first ever dog, I've took a small part of my time to research into the dogs. I've found that the recommended amount of exercise for a border collie can be up to roughly 2 - 4 hours a day?! I'm really interested in getting one however, if I'm not keeping it happy I don't want it to be upset if one hour walks a day isn't enough! This is were a yellow lab comes in, I've found along with the Golden Retrievers these are brilliant house dogs with much less needed exercise (1 hour a day). Am I not suitable to care for a Border Collie if I'm limited to walking it 1 hour a day with home attention, and is the Yellow lab more for me?
> 
> First time on the forums, feedback appreciated, thank you!


I don't know where you're reading about exercise requirements, but like others have pointed out, young Labs and Goldens need more exercise and mental stimulation than an hour a day. 

Also, "exercise" is a really arbitrary term when used by these dog information websites. Are you talking about a hour walk on a leash, or an hour chasing after a tennis ball? Because those are two very different things.


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

dmickle1 said:


> I don't know where you're reading about exercise requirements, but like others have pointed out, young Labs and Goldens need more exercise and mental stimulation than an hour a day.
> 
> Also, "exercise" is a really arbitrary term when used by these dog information websites. Are you talking about a hour walk on a leash, or an hour chasing after a tennis ball? Because those are two very different things.


Very true. 'Exercise' means different things to different people. There's hardcore, wear you out ball-chasing, which we do daily til they're pooped. Then there's mosying around the property off-leash, with the occasional sprint after a squirrel, which they get for about an hour or two daily. Then there's running errands and shopping, which ET gets for anywhere from 30 minutes to a few hours a day, depending on what I need to do. All are a form of exercise, and they need them all, every day. Minus the shopping, for your average dog, of course


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Seriously.
> 
> Less than a work-bred BC, but probably not as much as you may think. Labs and Goldens go through a difficult phase that lasts until they are too creaky to get up and get into mischief. That's not to say they aren't great companion dogs, just that they require a great deal of input from their humans. Put the necessary time into a Lab and you will be repaid one hundredfold. Neglect one and you will be repaid one thousandfold.


Honestly, I would MUCH rather deal with a working bred border collie than a lab. I find them easier. I think it's just a personality thing, retrievers and I don't tend to see eye to eye on much.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Honestly, I would MUCH rather deal with a working bred border collie than a lab. I find them easier. I think it's just a personality thing, retrievers and I don't tend to see eye to eye on much.


Same here!! (Thus the reason I have 2 and already have plans for my 3 and 4!LOL)


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't have labs, but I have had experience with a few & most are owned by ppl who do not excersise them. If you get one & it is your first I would recommend going thru rescue or the local shelter/SPCA in your area & get an older dog that is past all the puppy reindeer games (what I call the stupid puppy behavior lol). I don't mean to force rescue/adoption down your throat & this isn't an attempt believe me, but at most shelters, rescues, & SPCAs they will help you pick out a dog that will fit you & your lifestyle, if you find a 'bad' rescue/shelter (some can be sticklers about certain things, like if you work or live in the city or apt... SOME... not... ALL) there are tons of shelters /rescues out there, good ones, most are hey friendly & want to help both ppl & animals.

www.adoptapet.com
www.petfinder.com
These are good places to start, if that's the route you choose.


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