# Congestive heart failure meds and homeopathy



## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

Hi everyone. 

My little dog has had a slight heart murmur for about two years which we've been monitoring it all along, and it's remained the same. 

About a month ago, he had a petit mal seizure out of the blue. I rushed him to ER and they did lab work and a chest x-ray. They said his lungs were filled with fluid and wanted to put him on meds for that and suggested doing an ultrasound, which we did a few days later. It showed heart disease, which they said was expected for his age and not something they felt was cause for major concern. By process of ruling out other causes, they said the seizure was likely due to brain tumor, which just devastated me. 

They put him on a regime of Phenobarbital, Furosemide, Enalapril, and recently added Vetmedin. 

We thought the heart issues were under control, and even though I didn't want to consider it, I assumed the brain tumor would be the primary cause for concern and worried about what symptoms he might develop. 

But about two weeks ago, his coughing intensified and I took him back in and they said his lungs were filled again with fluid. The vet was dismayed and said the heart disease was progressing much more quickly than they thought it would, and they say he is now in congestive heart failure. This past week, they increased the Furosemide to the highest level @ 3 times per day, and said would take at least 5 days to gauge if it was helping - it's been 6 days and he seems to not cough quite as often, but when he does, it's intense. He is also on Tussigon every 4-6 hours. 

Both my regular vets plus the vets at the ER clinic all concur in that they cannot do anything else, the meds are at highest levels, and all we can do is manage it and that it will likely come to a quality of life decision. 

He is my baby, my best pal and I can't fathom . . . you know. 

I found a homeopathic tonic that is reported to provide relief from symptoms like coughing and help with heart function, so I ordered it and received it today. This particular company rep told me that this tonic is a good one and 99.9% safe to use with prescription meds, which I was relatively certain about or I would not have ordered it. So I was excited to start my little dog on it this evening, but prior to giving it to him, I phoned one of the vets to get his opinion and he looked it up and said he simply doesn't know anything about homeopathy and could not say yes or no. Then I called the clinic and they said because it's not "FDA approved" they can't recommend such things to pet owners. They said when a dog's prognosis is not good and they've tried everything conventional, then it's up to the owner to decide whether or not to introduce alternatives. 

To those of you here who've had dogs with CHF, have you ever used a heart and circulation homeopathy formula in conjunction with the prescription meds? 

Anyone have opinions about this?

So worried and sad. 

Thank you.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm sorry you and your dog are going through this. My heart goes out to you. 

Although I have no experience with this, there is a yahoo group for K-9 congestive heart failure. (seems to be a YG for everything). My experience with k-9 health related yahoo groups is that they tend to be very supportive and informative. You might want to try them out.
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CanineCongestiveHeartFailure/info


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

Any updates? Situations like this are so very difficult and upsetting. Please, if you learn anything more, post an update. Hope things get better! I don't know how old your dog baby is, but my boy is almost 13, and having so many issues. It is hard to know what to do and how to feel. My boy was misdiagnosed with CHF a couple of years ago. He actually just had lung inflammation...possibly allergy related. If only I could make his dreadful arthritis go away. Once again, wishing you the best of luck!


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

3doglady said:


> I'm sorry you and your dog are going through this. My heart goes out to you.
> 
> Although I have no experience with this, there is a yahoo group for K-9 congestive heart failure. (seems to be a YG for everything). My experience with k-9 health related yahoo groups is that they tend to be very supportive and informative. You might want to try them out.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CanineCongestiveHeartFailure/info


Thank you very much for your sentiments and for that link.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> Any updates? Situations like this are so very difficult and upsetting. Please, if you learn anything more, post an update. Hope things get better! I don't know how old your dog baby is, but my boy is almost 13, and having so many issues. It is hard to know what to do and how to feel. My boy was misdiagnosed with CHF a couple of years ago. He actually just had lung inflammation...possibly allergy related. If only I could make his dreadful arthritis go away. Once again, wishing you the best of luck!


Hello and thank you - he had a rough night and morning, the coughing is so intense, each one is like a full body spasm. Right now he is resting, although his breathing is just a bit labored. He does not appear to be in any degree of distress - if he was, I'd immediately take him to the clinic. I am staying close to him and monitoring his breathing and behavior and am so scared that I may have to rush him in. 

He was a stray who "found" us 9 years ago and the vet at the time believed he was 2 or 3, so he's now around 11 or 12. He is, we think, a mix of Papillion and Pomeranian, weighs 12 pounds, and has the perpetual puppy look about him, so I have a hard time realizing that he's perhaps 12 years old. Time moves right along, doesn't it? 

Even though he has had a murmur for a couple of years, and he began having occasional coughing months ago, there was time when we thought/hoped it was more allergy-related, so we tried Benadryl, and there were times when I thought it helped a bit. But unfortunately, the cough has progressed to what he's experiencing now. 

I'm sorry your baby is having so many issues - arthritis can be so difficult, even more so when they have other things going on. They told me my fellow has a couple of bad discs and some arthritis in his spine. 

Do you mean that it was a mis-diagnosis of CHF? 

How did you determine otherwise? 

From what all my vets (there are 5 on the case) have said, it is CHF and there is simply nothing else they can do - he is at the max on all meds and they said the heart disease/CHF is progressing much more quickly than they thought it would.

I am torn about what to do in terms of meds. He is on 5 prescriptions around the clock and I feel like he is overloaded on drugs. But I have no idea how he would do if we stopped some of the meds. 

And I am still undecided about the homeopathy. I honestly don't think it will harm him, might not help, but don't believe it will make anything worse. My fear though, as I'm trying to do everything I can to help him, is that if it caused some problem, I'd never forgive myself. But then I think, if I don't try it will I always wonder if it would have helped. 

I am stressed, worried, and sad. 

Thank you for your sentiments and I send you and your baby good wishes.


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

I know how stressed you must be. The fearful anticipation is terrible. When I got my boy, he was very sick and had a terrible respiratory infection at only 7 weeks of age. There were times when he would convulse and gasp for air because he was so congested and his little smushed boston face just didn't allow any air in. I carried him around in a towel for a week, and he finally overcame it all, but it caused me to be forever worried about him although he has been essentially ''bullet proof'' since then. He was with me through my divorce and move to a new strange house, and I never thought I'd ever have to be without him....but yes, the time does move right along. 

I had used a small town, low cost vet all of Toby's life, and never had any complaints....not one. When Toby developed a cough that wouldn't go away, that vet looked him over and listened to his chest and said it was probably fluid retention due to age related congestive heart issues. There were no Xrays. We were given meds for fluid. They didn't help that I could tell. After my divorce and move to a new area, I tried a new vet that was closer. Toby had terrible breath and started to stay in his bed when I was home...which was very abnormal. The new vet insisted on X-rays before any treatment. The X-ray showed lung inflammation but no fluid buildup. It also showed spinal arthritis(which shocked me). The vet said that he understood how it could have been misread especially without Xrays. No hard feelings here toward our old vet, because he always tried to save his customers money, but in this situation, the Xrays told the real story.

Toby had a shot or two...I cant remember exactly as it was over two years ago now. The coughing went away. Toby had 8 teeth pulled by the new vet and all went well. This is where our story goes down hill. Within a few months, Toby developed a cataract in his left eye and has since gone totally deaf. He started itching badly and his skin was smelling bad even after a bath. The vet found Toby's thyroid levels off and suspected some flea allergy to boot. Toby now takes thyroid meds daily. Lastly, within the last year, his back legs are getting weak and if he stands in one place for more than 10 seconds, he slowly squats to a seated position. His feet slide on anything slick, and he slowly but steadily is getting worse. He follows me like a shadow from room to room if I'm home, but stays in his bed all day when I am gone. No real running or playing anymore. Just wants to stay close....and EAT!!! Boy does he still love to eat!! When he was 11, you'd swear he was 3, but now at nearly 13, he is seemingly falling apart, and I cant fix it. I'm trying but nothing seems to slow this progression. I am of the assumption that his spinal cord is compromised somehow. He's not a candidate for any surgery, or any sort of NSAID due to high liver counts. I just supplement him to death keep hoping to find something that helps but haven't found it yet. Now, he doesn't want to sleep at night...ugh....but I love him so much. What is there that I would not do???

With 5 vets involved, I guess it's hard to question the diagnosis, but it is still possible I suppose. I would strongly encourage you to read and study anything you can find, and I'm sure you have, but don't stop. I have learned a lot even though I don't feel like I'm able to fix anything now. I dread the day that may come that I have to make some seemingly dreadful decision. Stressed, worried, sad? Yes, I promise you I understand. We don't want to lose them. 

Thank you also for your kind words and thoughts. Please post updates. Praying for answers for you and your little baby.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad,

Thank you. 

Oh dear, I'm so sorry your little guy is experiencing so many problems, and sounds like he got a rough start having the problems at only a few weeks of age. Yes, without doing x-rays and even an ultrasound, I think it would have been hard to diagnose what was going on . . . I understand some vets would try to help the people save money, and tests and so forth can certainly be expensive, but sometimes they just have to do certain things for a proper diagnosis. You can try and surmise what has caused his health to decline so much in the past couple of years, but age really can play a role - and it sounds like you're doing everything you can for him . . . you have to know in your heart you've done - and are doing - your best. I think the fact that he's eating well is a good sign, don't you? Keep updating how he's doing. 

I know what you mean . . . as I wrote before, my little dog still has a puppy look about him, and it seems not that long ago that he could do things like jump up on the sofa -and then he couldn't . . . you notice the changes and you know they're getting older and well, it's sad. 

I'm sure being divorced and taking Toby with you has forged an extra bond for the two of you. I've been a widow for 3 years, no people family here, and this little fellow is my best pal.

Well, the past couple of days, he's had some rough moments . . . Friday morning was particular rough with persistent coughing. By the afternoon, he rested a bit and I decided to take him to the clinic and have them check his lungs and breathing/heart rate. Also needed med refills, and wanted to discuss that. 

The vet said he is in the end stages of congestive heart failure. 

So sad. 

They refilled all the meds and added a second diuretic; we are cutting the Furosemide to twice daily instead of 3 times daily because it can harm the kidneys. He said this extra diuretic has worked in many cases, not in others, just depends on each dog. Beyond that, there's nothing they can add or do. He said if it helps, there should be improvement in 2 days. But sadly, he said it's just buying time. 

They told me what to watch for and I listened and I understand what they say, but I can't even fathom it all. I am not giving up . . . 

On the ride to the clinic and back, my sweet friend sat calmly in the passenger seat, and I talked to him and he'd look over at me with that precious little face . . . _oh my._ I keep trying to prepare myself but I can't. I think about making the final drive . . . and I cry. 

How . . . does one prepare for the absence of such a sweet presence . . . ?

Thank you for reading and for your thoughts and prayers.

Sending best wishes to you and Toby.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I have just been reading along ... don't know the first thing about CHF. I just want to say that I am so sorry you two are going through this. You cannot prepare for the final moment when you must make that decision between the best interest of your beloved best friend and family member ... and your own desire to never let them go. I had to make that decision a little over a year ago. I loved Leeo more than life. I will never get over him ... but I will not have to question whether I left him here to suffer longer than he needed to.

I owed him at least that much for his short little 5 years here on earth. He helped me through many hard times in his short little life ... more than I could ever repay .... He was my heart boy.

I tried saving him ... and after a week in the hospital I could see him slowly deteriorating ... I put my selfishness of never wanting to let him go aside ... and made that final decision. He did not deserve to suffer any longer. I loved him that much.

Bless the both of you and my prayers are with you.


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

This is such a hard time for you. It is not easy to take the word of the vet, even though they are the ones with all of the training. I think though that you must also remind yourself that you too are doing all that you know to do. When we bring these babies into out lives, many times they are young and strong. We are unable to look far enough forward to see the later days when time eventually takes its toll on them. I see and read so many posts of dogs living to be 16+ years...why do some not? I simply do not know, but when the days seem to grow short we must walk with them and somehow understand that we will do all that we can but that at some point things go beyond our reach. It doesn't mean we quit...don't quit...but try to be comforted in the fact that you have given more love to your baby than anyone else ever could have. I think somehow they know...I'm sure your little one wouldn't want anyone but you...you have been and are the best thing he knows on this earth. Think of the tremendous impact you have made on him...life would never have been so good without you. 

I'm sorry you aren't getting any positive news. Heaven knows...a little good news can go a long way at a time like this. From all of the information I have taken in over the last couple of years worth of vet visits, the thing that echos in my ears is ''This is progressive and there is no cure''. It's a kind way of saying ''This is going to kill him...if nothing else does''. I guess I have accepted that part, and maybe you have too, but the in between is very heartbreaking. Will you or I be faced with deciding when enough is enough? That part I am struggling with.

I don't know how to advise you on survival without the presence of having him around. I honestly don't know how I will ever begin to do it either. If/when it gets bad enough though, I will not make him suffer, or at least not intentionally. I will have the vet come to our home to do it and if he wont, I'll find one that will. Maybe that would be a slightly more comforting option for you whenever that time may come. 

If you haven't already, take pictures of your baby...video too if that's an option. There will come a time when you will treasure them. I went many years without taking pictures or videos, and now I wish I had more than I do. I'm also going to make one of the little footprint keepsakes...I've seen them online. You may have better ideas of your own...if you do...share because I'm open for suggestions! Haha...

I often remind myself that I must handle this in the same way I would ask my Toby to if our roles were reversed. I think I would ask that we try the things that might help and wait and see how things turned out, but not to delay or drag things out too long. I would ask that when my time was really up, to be strong and to know that this love never dies even though the body does. I would tell him to cry when he felt like it but to remember something good each time...do not think of me and be sad...our life was not that way and that when someday his time too is up, I will be waiting for him.

I will continue to pray for you and watch for updates. I hope the change in meds gives some relief.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

We had a dog in our past with CHF, a cocker spaniel. She was elderly when it became an issue, many of the same meds you are being given. Our dog declined quickly as well and I believe it was less than a year from the time we started meds until we made the difficult decision. Eventually her quality of life was dwindling when she eventually could not hold her urine due to the high levels of diuretics she was being given. She started to experience skin problems because she was leaking on herself all the time. At that point our family decided that it would be in her best interest (although it was painful for all of us) to request that final vet appointment. 

Before you get to that point, and since you are seeing the vet alot anyway, ask how they handle that visit so that you can prepare yourself for the inevitable. Some vets let you stay in the room, some vets charge a bit more if you stay because they administer additional drugs to the dog so they are perfectly still (easier for you to witness), ask about prices and options, make your wishes known now before you have to make that emotional phone call and last visit. I always have the cost written down ahead of time so I can write the check beforehand and just take it out of my pocket when we arrive. They will know how to help you when you arrive if you talk about it now. And unless it becomes an acute situation, most vet offices can arrange for the visit to be at a time when no one except staff will be present. After so many years of having pets, I always arrange it (and they know after 30 years) before or after office hours so I don't have to navigate other animals/owners in the waiting room, and since they are equally involved (all of our pets go to the same vet from the day they are brought to our home) we can all spend a few minutes together at the end. Don't be surprised if your vet and staff shed a tear or two as well.

My thoughts are with you as you navigate this difficult time. Goodness knows I've done it so many times over the last 30 years that the feeling is well known to me. I remind myself every time we lose one of our pets that there are so many animals looking for a good home. But I encourage you to address the ineveitable with your vet as soon as possible to make it as comfortable as possible for both you and your dog.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

Abbylynn said:


> I have just been reading along ... don't know the first thing about CHF. I just want to say that I am so sorry you two are going through this. You cannot prepare for the final moment when you must make that decision between the best interest of your beloved best friend and family member ... and your own desire to never let them go. I had to make that decision a little over a year ago. I loved Leeo more than life. I will never get over him ... but I will not have to question whether I left him here to suffer longer than he needed to.
> 
> I owed him at least that much for his short little 5 years here on earth. He helped me through many hard times in his short little life ... more than I could ever repay .... He was my heart boy.
> 
> ...



So sorry you had to go through that . . . it's so sad. 

I appreciate your thoughts and prayers. 

Thank you.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> This is such a hard time for you. It is not easy to take the word of the vet, even though they are the ones with all of the training. I think though that you must also remind yourself that you too are doing all that you know to do. When we bring these babies into out lives, many times they are young and strong. We are unable to look far enough forward to see the later days when time eventually takes its toll on them. I see and read so many posts of dogs living to be 16+ years...why do some not? I simply do not know, but when the days seem to grow short we must walk with them and somehow understand that we will do all that we can but that at some point things go beyond our reach. It doesn't mean we quit...don't quit...but try to be comforted in the fact that you have given more love to your baby than anyone else ever could have. I think somehow they know...I'm sure your little one wouldn't want anyone but you...you have been and are the best thing he knows on this earth. Think of the tremendous impact you have made on him...life would never have been so good without you.
> 
> I'm sorry you aren't getting any positive news. Heaven knows...a little good news can go a long way at a time like this. From all of the information I have taken in over the last couple of years worth of vet visits, the thing that echos in my ears is ''This is progressive and there is no cure''. It's a kind way of saying ''This is going to kill him...if nothing else does''. I guess I have accepted that part, and maybe you have too, but the in between is very heartbreaking. Will you or I be faced with deciding when enough is enough? That part I am struggling with.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your heartfelt sentiments. I really do appreciate that you understand and thank you, too, for encouring me that I'm doing all I can . . . I know you are doing all you can, too.

Yes, I believe they know how much we do, that they couldn't have had a better home or someone who loved them any more than we do. 

He had barely eaten anything today, only a few morsels of food and very little water. Prior to eating those morsels, he threw up thick fluid with some foam and they had told me that was one of the things to watch for. So I called the vet and they said if he doesn't eat they can give him an injectable to settle his stomach, so I've been watching him. Just gave his evening med regime and thankfully, he ate afterward and took a big drink of water! So glad about that. Just hoping that extra diuretic is working, as it's been two full days now. 

Will keep you posted, and I hope Toby is stable and that you're getting some rest.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

briteday said:


> We had a dog in our past with CHF, a cocker spaniel. She was elderly when it became an issue, many of the same meds you are being given. Our dog declined quickly as well and I believe it was less than a year from the time we started meds until we made the difficult decision. Eventually her quality of life was dwindling when she eventually could not hold her urine due to the high levels of diuretics she was being given. She started to experience skin problems because she was leaking on herself all the time. At that point our family decided that it would be in her best interest (although it was painful for all of us) to request that final vet appointment.
> 
> Before you get to that point, and since you are seeing the vet alot anyway, ask how they handle that visit so that you can prepare yourself for the inevitable. Some vets let you stay in the room, some vets charge a bit more if you stay because they administer additional drugs to the dog so they are perfectly still (easier for you to witness), ask about prices and options, make your wishes known now before you have to make that emotional phone call and last visit. I always have the cost written down ahead of time so I can write the check beforehand and just take it out of my pocket when we arrive. They will know how to help you when you arrive if you talk about it now. And unless it becomes an acute situation, most vet offices can arrange for the visit to be at a time when no one except staff will be present. After so many years of having pets, I always arrange it (and they know after 30 years) before or after office hours so I don't have to navigate other animals/owners in the waiting room, and since they are equally involved (all of our pets go to the same vet from the day they are brought to our home) we can all spend a few minutes together at the end. Don't be surprised if your vet and staff shed a tear or two as well.
> 
> My thoughts are with you as you navigate this difficult time. Goodness knows I've done it so many times over the last 30 years that the feeling is well known to me. I remind myself every time we lose one of our pets that there are so many animals looking for a good home. But I encourage you to address the ineveitable with your vet as soon as possible to make it as comfortable as possible for both you and your dog.


Thank you for the information, which is sensible and logical, and I know I need to discuss it with them ahead of time, but can't seem to right now . . . I'm pretty strong, but it's tough. Just concentrating on taking care of him as best I can and being comforting as his condition progresses. I have no (people) family here and I hope I can be as strong as I need to be when the time comes. 

Sorry you've been through it so many times - terribly sad. 

Thank you for your thoughts.


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## Nuclear_Glitter (Jun 20, 2012)

Although I have no experience with this issue, I find that normally, more natural things don't hurt. Sometimes they don't help, but they generally don't hurt. Of course only you can decide, but if it were my dog, I believe I'd try the homeopathy formula. 

I'm sending positive energy and support your way. I truly wish you the best and I hope that everything is as good as it can be. 

Best of everything to you both.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

Nuclear_Glitter said:


> Although I have no experience with this issue, I find that normally, more natural things don't hurt. Sometimes they don't help, but they generally don't hurt. Of course only you can decide, but if it were my dog, I believe I'd try the homeopathy formula.
> 
> I'm sending positive energy and support your way. I truly wish you the best and I hope that everything is as good as it can be.
> 
> Best of everything to you both.



Hello, that is what I felt, too . . . that even though it might not help, it likely wouldn't hurt, but once I broached the topic with the various vets, they all said that with his heavy regime of meds, they wouldn't recommend it. Of course, this is what you would expect from conventional vets, as they don't deal with alternatives such as homeopathy. But even knowing that, I'm still torn. 

He is not coughing as regularly as he was and I think it may be that the second diuretic is helping, but when he does cough, it's pretty intense. He is not as eager to eat, which is not a good sign, because he's always had a healthy appetite. It's just after 5 pm here and he just ate for the first time today. He is more lethargic and in the back of mind I know it may be due to the CHF, but am hoping it is only because we increased the dosage of the cough suppressant with causes drowsiness. 

The weather is so pleasant here and we've been out back on the terrace a few times and he enjoys the nice breeze and relaxes quite well, which makes me so happy. 

Thank you for your input and the kind thoughts and support you're sending our way ~ I appreciate it.


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

So glad to hear that you are getting a small break in the coughing. Hopefully it will continue. Toby will occasionally do this 'cough cough cough hack' thing and cough out a thick crystal clear liquid...maybe a little foam, but not much. He doesn't do it often, but when he does, it will be for several days in a row until it finally clears up. I wonder if that's what your are seeing too?

It's also good to see that you are able to get him to eat at least a little. What are you offering him now? Is he refusing even his favorites? I think they need much less than even we think they do, but it sure helps ease some of the anxiety when they have some appetite.

The fresh air has got to be good for both of you. Thankfully you have a place to get outside and breathe deep and relax some. We went out for about 15 minutes this afternoon since it was only 68 out, but Toby just went and stood by 'his' cherry tomato plant...I think he's obsessed with them haha. We walk together until we reach the plant, and then I'm walking alone while he looks at me and the tomatoes...I have to laugh.

Keep your head up and take comfort in knowing you make the rough times better for your baby. Prayers coming from us here.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

It sounds like you are doing everything you can. I tend to go a bit overboard with sick ones. But our vet always encourages us to give whatever the dog will eat when times are tough, within reason. Sometimes there have been foods that are not at the top of our list, but as long as it's not candy...they pretty much get to pick what to eat. Be careful though not to upset the delicate balance you have going. I have found that small amounts of peanut butter help to keep the weight on. 

Take care and we'er sending you positive thoughts!


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

Hello there! It's been a few days...how are things going? Do you have any updates? I hope all is well.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

briteday said:


> It sounds like you are doing everything you can. I tend to go a bit overboard with sick ones. But our vet always encourages us to give whatever the dog will eat when times are tough, within reason. Sometimes there have been foods that are not at the top of our list, but as long as it's not candy...they pretty much get to pick what to eat. Be careful though not to upset the delicate balance you have going. I have found that small amounts of peanut butter help to keep the weight on.
> 
> Take care and we'er sending you positive thoughts!


briteday, 

Yes, that's delicate balance is something I keep in mind, hoping that his eating pattern will stay as regular as possible. He was taking his meds just fine each time, then one day decided he didn't want them, so I had to put them into tiny bits of cheese that I molded into balls to hide the pills and he's ok with that, except a couple of times has spit it out and so I add a tad more. When he was hesitant to eat, I mixed a very few shreds of cheese into the bowl and he was more eager to eat. Thing is, once you do that, they want it every time and I know too much cheese is not good, but I'm not adding much, just enough to motivate him to eat. 

Thank you so much for your suggestions and good thoughts.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> So glad to hear that you are getting a small break in the coughing. Hopefully it will continue. Toby will occasionally do this 'cough cough cough hack' thing and cough out a thick crystal clear liquid...maybe a little foam, but not much. He doesn't do it often, but when he does, it will be for several days in a row until it finally clears up. I wonder if that's what your are seeing too?
> 
> It's also good to see that you are able to get him to eat at least a little. What are you offering him now? Is he refusing even his favorites? I think they need much less than even we think they do, but it sure helps ease some of the anxiety when they have some appetite.
> 
> ...





TobysDad said:


> Hello there! It's been a few days...how are things going? Do you have any updates? I hope all is well.


Hi TobysDad,

So sorry about not posting before now . . . my goodness, time is going by fast, do you notice that? 

Thanks, yes, any relief he can get with the coughing is a help because I know that at the very least his little body must be sore and tired due to the intensity. Thankfully, the frequency of the coughing episodes has reduced. 

Is Toby's cough/hack just kind of a general thing and not related to the cough he had before? I think it's fairly normal for most dogs to occasionally cough up a clear, thick liquid with foam, due to eating too fast or other reasons. My little dog only did it once the other day and it worried me because they had said that was a sign to watch for and also if it is blood-tinged at all. Thank goodness he didn't do it again. 

As I told briteday above, I've had to introduce a little shredded cheese to get him to take meds and also to eat. He didn't eat yesterday at all, though, until very late evening, but then he ate well and drank a lot of water. He's also doing his business regularly. You're right, when their appetite is good, you feel like it's a good sign. 

I am relishing every sweet moment with him and those times out back have been particularly relaxing. I am so delighted any time he is calm and at ease, and I get very optimistic. A couple of times he walked around the yard, and along the perimeter of the fence and no coughing, which was great! I am letting him do what he seems to feel like doing - I don't want him to over-exert, but I think some activity is certainly good for him. I do notice, though, that it seems to be getting more difficult for him to get up and walk at times, almost like he's weighted down and sometimes it instantly causes him to pant and breathe harder. Just can't bear the notion that he'd have breathing difficulties - it's bad enough as it is, but don't want him to have any kind of distress. 

Yes, you're right too, about being out and getting that fresh air (well, as fresh as outside air can be these days, right?) . . . and both of just relaxing as best we can. That's so cute about Toby and the tomato plant! Sounds like you guys are such good pals . . . they really do become our best friends, don't they? 

If you don't mind my asking, don't mean to pry - is it just you and Toby? I mean, do you have close family or friends to help you or anything? Just us two here, no family nearby. My husband passed away three years ago (cancer) and our beautiful Border Collie was diagnosed with cancer and passed away five months before my husband. That was a rough year. This sweet little fellow, who was always special, became even more so ~

You are so kind to offer encouragement and thoughts & prayers, TobysDad. 

Our thoughts and good wishes are with you and Toby as well, and I know that you're doing the very best you can for him, too. 

Will keep you updated and you do the same.


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

I totally understand not posting. It's easy to get wrapped up in daily things for sure. I was just curious how things were going...so much can happen in a short time.

Toby doesn't normally cough like that at all, but when he does, he seems to do it on and off for several days. It's not from eating fast...although he can sure do that as good as any haha. He has been coughing after drinking water lately though. One of the last visits to the vet, he was X-rayed again and they said that he now has mega-esophagus. I don't know if that is making him cough more now or not. For the last couple of weeks, he has been coughing 4 or 5 times after every drink of water, but he isn't coughing anything up now. Honestly, I don't know for sure what this bout is all about, but with his other issues, this one is of lesser concern with me.

Toby pants a lot now too. I walk outside with him multiple times when I'm home. He's never on a leash, I just let him go where he chooses. I wonder if his panting is from pain or if its a heart related thing. Either way, I never make him walk anymore than he wants to. Sometimes after he eats, he will pant quite a bit too, so I'm just at a loss. I just make a point not to intentionally exert him at all. He was always one of those dogs that bounced off the walls if he was awake, but those days are no more.

These kind words and encouragements are genuine. There is a kinship between people who understand how scary it is and how helpless one can feel when faced with situations like these. As we all know, some people just do not get it, and I know from experience, a little encouragement from someone who does can help.

As always, we are wishing better and better days for you and your baby. Keep the updates coming.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> I totally understand not posting. It's easy to get wrapped up in daily things for sure. I was just curious how things were going...so much can happen in a short time.
> 
> Toby doesn't normally cough like that at all, but when he does, he seems to do it on and off for several days. It's not from eating fast...although he can sure do that as good as any haha. He has been coughing after drinking water lately though. One of the last visits to the vet, he was X-rayed again and they said that he now has mega-esophagus. I don't know if that is making him cough more now or not. For the last couple of weeks, he has been coughing 4 or 5 times after every drink of water, but he isn't coughing anything up now. Honestly, I don't know for sure what this bout is all about, but with his other issues, this one is of lesser concern with me.
> 
> ...


Hi TobysDad,

Yes, my little dog has begun coughing a great deal right after drinking water and it does concern me. 

Never heard of mega-esophagus, but I assume it's enlarged/swollen? If so, that certainly could account for his coughing. True, when they have so many issues, you have to determine which are the most and "least" significant, although they're all important. 

The panting is concerning, yes, and my fellow does that quite a lot. I believe it's from the heart/breathing issues; in my little dog's case, it doesn't appear to be due to pain and I hope that's true also for Toby. But I've heard that dogs can experience some degree of pain without humans knowing it, so that makes it even more confusing for us to try and help them and know what's going on. Oh I know, I remember when this little guy was running and jumping and playing . . . so sad when they can longer do that. 

Thank you, I know your words and thoughts are genuine, I can feel that . . . I will never, ever understand how some people are insensitive and think that animals don't have feelings or that they're "just dogs". 

Here's an update, Sunday night: 

He did not cough once between 5 am this morning and mid-afternoon, which was just great . . . but he looks like he doesn't feel well at all and he's only eaten 1/2 of a portion of food today . . . won't eat even a few morsels that I just offered him in my hand. He is more lethargic today and having more difficulty going from a laying to standing position so I give him a boost. I am thinking again tonight about the homeopathic tonic, wondering if I should try it. The vets all say no, since he's on so many meds, they don't recommend it. Oh my, you want to help in any possible way . . . and you can truly be torn about should I do this or that or not. 

Good thoughts to you and Toby ~


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

Tobys mega-esophagus diagnosis came maybe 6 months ago. I took him in for a routine check and the vet said it looked like he may have an 'iffy' tooth(he had 8 pulled in 2012). I was considering having him set up for a dental cleaning and whatever else might be needed. They did an Xray first, and found the mega-esophagus. He didn't have it a year before. They don't willingly sedate dogs with mega-esophagus. From what I have read, it is usually only in large dogs, so once again there is something I don't understand why he has. He is hardly a large dog at 22lbs.

I've read several places that dogs will instinctively hide pain as long as possible to keep from losing their rank in the pack. I guess that by the time we suspect our babies are in pain, they are in substantial discomfort. Thankfully, some ailments are supposedly painless, but gosh, who really knows which ones? I wonder how many times my boy has had a headache, or sore throat? How would we know?

I think it's good that you are seeing a break in the coughing from time to time. I hope that continues. Every now and then, Toby will turn his nose to any/all food in the early morning. This is not too often...he is normally more than happy to eat nearly anything I offer him. Each time he refuses to eat, it makes me think 'Oh no....he's not eating...now what am I going to do?'. I don't know why panic is the first response.... It is hard to get the meds in for sure.

I don't think I'd be afraid to try the homeopathic remedies. I would possibly give reduced amounts spaced out longer to start...just to monitor. 

Wishing better and better days to come.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Maybe it would make more sense this way...

In congestive heart failure the heart cannot pump blood efficiently. So blood tends to back up going in and out of the lungs where it normally gives off the oxygen molecules to be used by the rest of the body. Because it tends to pool in the vessels in the lungs, a lot of fluid leaks out into the lungs from the pooling blood. So the lungs are filling up with fluid which gives them less surface area to exchange oxygen. Unfortunately it is a vicious circle, the more blood that goes to the lungs mean more fluid filling them up. The diuretics are meant to reduce some of the fluid load, hopefully giving the animal more surface area to exchange oxygen. The panting is because they aren't getting enough oxygen exchange.

Best wishes and positive thoughts.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> Tobys mega-esophagus diagnosis came maybe 6 months ago. I took him in for a routine check and the vet said it looked like he may have an 'iffy' tooth(he had 8 pulled in 2012). I was considering having him set up for a dental cleaning and whatever else might be needed. They did an Xray first, and found the mega-esophagus. He didn't have it a year before. They don't willingly sedate dogs with mega-esophagus. From what I have read, it is usually only in large dogs, so once again there is something I don't understand why he has. He is hardly a large dog at 22lbs.
> 
> I've read several places that dogs will instinctively hide pain as long as possible to keep from losing their rank in the pack. I guess that by the time we suspect our babies are in pain, they are in substantial discomfort. Thankfully, some ailments are supposedly painless, but gosh, who really knows which ones? I wonder how many times my boy has had a headache, or sore throat? How would we know?
> 
> ...


It's true they can't have dental work done that requires anesthesia if they have other problems; my guy needed his annual cleaning last year, but they didn't want to risk it. So I can understand why the esophagus issue would pose a potential risk with sedation. Have never heard of it, so don't know why he would have it; perhaps his breed might be more prone? Sometimes, there is no particular, one-size-fits-all answer, is there? 

Sure makes you feel even more helpless to know they may have some pain but are not showing it so that you know it and can try to help . . . I worry so, as I know you do too, that he is hurting or that he knows he's sick . . . it just breaks your heart to think they are in pain, distress, or feeling sadness. 

Glad Toby will eat, even if he sometimes rejects his meals. I think as long as they have somewhat of an appetite, it's good. You know, when we care so much, panic just seems to be our first reaction. 

Thank you for your feedback on the homeopathy. 

Wishing better days for you guys, too.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

briteday said:


> Maybe it would make more sense this way...
> 
> In congestive heart failure the heart cannot pump blood efficiently. So blood tends to back up going in and out of the lungs where it normally gives off the oxygen molecules to be used by the rest of the body. Because it tends to pool in the vessels in the lungs, a lot of fluid leaks out into the lungs from the pooling blood. So the lungs are filling up with fluid which gives them less surface area to exchange oxygen. Unfortunately it is a vicious circle, the more blood that goes to the lungs mean more fluid filling them up. The diuretics are meant to reduce some of the fluid load, hopefully giving the animal more surface area to exchange oxygen. The panting is because they aren't getting enough oxygen exchange.
> 
> Best wishes and positive thoughts.


Thank you, briteday, for that input. Yes, I've been researching more, plus the vets had explained it. I wasn't totally sure about the panting, because someone had told me she thought it could be due to either heat or stress, but as I keep my home temp comfortable for my little fellow, I knew it had to be either stress or related to breathing - and figured it's most likely breathing, as you explained. 

Today, he's still not coughing nearly like he did for awhile, but his breathing rate seemed very slow and he was even more lethargic, so I phoned the clinic and spoke with them about it. My concern was in whether CHF most usually progresses with the fluid build-up or if it can involve, quite literally, the heart failing. I was thinking that perhaps his breathing rate is slowing down too much. They said it can happen, but what they most often see are those with the build-up of fluid. Either way, it's terrible and sad. 

As I've said, I do appreciate your thoughts and wishes.


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

Update? How is everything going? I hope your little guy is having an easier time of it. How is his breathing? Will the vet risk pulling off any fluid if there is any building up? I know that sometimes fluid can be drained from the lungs, but I don't know what stars have to line up in order to make it safe and justifiable. 

I have never dealt with confirmed CHF. Is it hereditary, or can it be environmentally induced?

Hopeful wishes from Toby and I.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> Update? How is everything going? I hope your little guy is having an easier time of it. How is his breathing? Will the vet risk pulling off any fluid if there is any building up? I know that sometimes fluid can be drained from the lungs, but I don't know what stars have to line up in order to make it safe and justifiable.
> 
> I have never dealt with confirmed CHF. Is it hereditary, or can it be environmentally induced?
> 
> Hopeful wishes from Toby and I.


Hi TobysDad, and thank you for your kind wishes. 

We hope you and Toby are hanging in there, tough and determined.

My little dog's cough has substantially decreased since beginning the second diuretic, but over the weekend and first part of this week, he was more lethargic and as I'd posted, his appetite began decreasing to the point of not eating anything until late in the evening. Then the past couple of days, he's begun eating more and has had bursts of energy, walked around the yard, and he's even been wanting to play a little . . . we come in from the backyard and I'll tell him "You did GREAT!" and he gets so happy and excited by the praise and so he wants to play . . . I am more than happy to play but I'm careful about not letting him overdo it, but it's just so delightful that we can play like that. 

So in those moments, I get lulled into a sense of "it's ok, he's going to be fine" . . . even though I know that's not true. As I sit here typing this, he is laying beside my chair, looking up at me with that sweet, little face . . . and I can barely hold back the tears.

But today, his cough seems to be increasing again and there's that congested sound in his lungs and at times a high-pitched wheezing kind of sound, and of course, it's concerning. Most recently, I've been taking him to the nearby ER clinic, and they've been great, and I had also been consulting with two of our vets at the regular office we've been going to for a long time . . . well, this evening I phoned one of those original vets and told him I just wanted to touch base with him and find out, given the most recent events and meds, if he concurs with everything. I asked him if there is any other specialist to contact, anything we can do. He was so sympathetic and he knows how much this little guy means to me, so it seemed kind of hard for him to talk about it, but he said yes, he agrees with what's being done and there is just nothing left on the table for anyone to try. I explained how he's better at times and I get optimistic and he said that's how roller-coaster this can be . . . that as it nears the end, they'll feel better and get some energy and then back to feeling bad again. He said once you've reached the full combination of meds, they will help and then they won't and kind of back and forth, and then it will get to a point where they just don't help at all, and the lungs fill with fluid and nothing works - and you have to make a quality of life decision. He said that the heart can just stop, but more likely, it would be the fluid. He very kindly began telling me, (wanting to help), that if it comes to a conflict between what your heart is telling you and what your mind is telling you, that you have to let your mind win out. And I know that, but . . . 

No, in his case, they cannot draw out any fluid. I actually discussed that subject with them at one point as I hoped perhaps they could, but no. 

His CHF is due to heart disease which they said is normal for his age plus the fact that he has a heart murmur. They said small dogs actually do better with murmurs for longer periods than large dogs who often don't do well at all. I don't know if CHF in dogs can be related to environment, but I assume it could be hereditary to the extent of a murmur or heart condition being inherited. He was a stray who found us, so I don't know anything about his heritage. 

Yesterday, I was upbeat and optimistic, and this evening I'm sadder . . . it is a roller-coaster in many ways, for both of us. 

How is Toby doing? 

I was reading back over your posts and bless his heart, he's got so many things going on . . . is the arthritis the main concern right now, in terms of how it's limiting him, or is the thyroid causing more problems? So sorry for you guys. 

Thanks again for all your posts.


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

Hello there!

We are hanging in the best we can here. The little bursts of energy are so uplifting. When I get home from work and Toby comes out of 'hiding' to greet me, the sound of his nails clicking on the floor brings back this dejavu feeling. It's a sound I've heard for years...the sound of a hyper little dog in constant motion. The feeling peaks and lulls...the memory combatting the reality. It's a strange feeling in the end. 

It is so difficult trying to wade through these things. Even with random glints of hope, there is really no relief from the underlying issue. I don't know about you, but I always feel like this cloud is overhead. There is just no real 'break'. I have gotten so tired lately, but of course there is no stopping. I totally understand the fluctuations in your moods and outlook. 

I have also been told that Toby's issues as a whole are also age related. As selfish as it is though, I always ask myself why so early? Many smaller dogs live into their late teens. I wonder if I have been lax somewhere, you know? Emotional roller-coaster here...yes, for sure. I realize that you don't know about your baby's earliest years, so that leaves you a little room to question what he went through. There can be so many questions. 

I hope you are able to maintain an upbeat outlook. It is so much easier said than done sometimes, I know. I'm sending positive thoughts to you both.

Toby is ok today. He seems a little unsettled, but that is how it's been for several months now. He wants me to feed him all the time, and he will whine if he thinks about it long enough. I leave the front door partially open so that he can venture out into the front yard if he chooses...this is thanks to the more agreeable weather lately. He wanders out quite often, but only goes down his ramp to potty. Sometimes he just goes on the ramp.

Yes, he has several issues now. Up until a couple of years ago, he had no issues at all, that I was aware of anyway. Based on the vet's reactions, the arthritic symptoms are the major concern. The vet says more than actual arthritis, Toby actually has some sort of spinal compromise that is causing his spine to slowly be constricted somewhere. It's causing his rear leg weakness more so than the arthritis. The arthritis shows up on the X-rays but the spinal constriction/inflammation does not. The strands that make up his spine are slowly being squeezed and they finally 'break' one by one. His rear toes will knuckle under sometimes. It kills me to see it. I wonder if he injured himself being so active and jumping and running so much all his life. Aside from that, he's on meds for his thyroid. He's blind in his left eye due to a cataract, and is deaf. He had 8 teeth pulled a year and a half ago, and who knows if any other have randomly fallen out. His left eye also has a clogged tear duct on the upper eyelid that causes a swelling that looks like a cancerous cyst, but it is not. The vet pops it each time we go in so that it doesn't keep growing and bothering his blind eye. It wont clear up on its own although surgery could fix it, but with megaesophagus, surgery is out. Gosh! I think that's all. But anyway, the neurological issues with his legs and spine are the most outwardly noticeable. It can eventually move to his front legs and who knows where else. We just do the best that we can. 

So how are things with you two today? I hope all is well. Keep the updates coming.

Have a very good evening.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> Hello there!
> 
> We are hanging in the best we can here. The little bursts of energy are so uplifting. When I get home from work and Toby comes out of 'hiding' to greet me, the sound of his nails clicking on the floor brings back this dejavu feeling. It's a sound I've heard for years...the sound of a hyper little dog in constant motion. The feeling peaks and lulls...the memory combatting the reality. It's a strange feeling in the end.
> 
> ...


Hi there, 

Isn't it something, those things like the clicking of the nails on the floor, that become so "familiar" to us . . . and then it comes to, as you say, memory vs. reality. It's gotten to where everything my little dog does, from trying to play to laying out on the terrace, walking around the yard, etc. makes me think "will that be the last time" . . . and I do not like doing that because it's contrary to my generally upbeat and optimistic attitude. But I guess it's natural for our minds to do that, once they've told us their prognosis. 

Yes, I know the cloud feeling . . . any sign of improvement makes me more optimistic, a false sense of hope, I know, but you want to believe . . . and then the reality is that cloud hovering and you know that he won't get any better. 

There's just no one-size-fits-all in any of this . . . and you just can't figure why some dogs, even the same size or breed, live longer than others, because there are so many factors involved and so, you cannot blame yourself. It sounds like you've always cared greatly for Toby. 

Yes, as my little dog was 2-3 years old when he found us, I've no way of knowing his health history as a pup or that of his parents. When he found us that night, he was rather scrawny and had an ear infection. Once we cleared that up and put some weight on him, he enjoyed pretty good health. Only chronic thing was that his neck would stiffen up from time to time that required an anti-inflammatory, but he hadn't had that for quite some time. 

Toby's spinal issues are no doubt causing his leg weakness, and the arthritis is surely contributing to some degree. Did you build the ramp for him? Oh my, so many issues he's dealing with, so hard for him and you. It does seem that the spinal compromise is the worst. You are doing the best you can for him, helping him get around, allowing him the freedom to do what he feels he can do. And he knows that. 

My little guy's cough has returned, as I wrote in the previous post, and I'm very concerned about that. We were out back this evening and he did well; he's eating but not in any regular pattern. The clinic wants me to bring him in to do lab work to check his kidneys, since they added the second diuretic. 

Thank you for your positive thoughts . . . same back to you guys.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I do not reply to this thread often ... I do read it all the time. I want you all to know that you and your pups are in my sincere thoughts and prayers. I know how having a dog in his final stage feels ... It is not something that can be described.

The little things you speak of ... oh how so true that is. There is a certain melody the weather channel plays ... this song was playing all the time when Leeo was in the hospital his final week here on earth. That melody is hardly ever played now ... but when it does ... all those thoughts of that final time come rushing back .....................

Positive thoughts heading your way. Your pups know how much they are loved.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

Abbylynn said:


> I do not reply to this thread often ... I do read it all the time. I want you all to know that you and your pups are in my sincere thoughts and prayers. I know how having a dog in his final stage feels ... It is not something that can be described.
> 
> The little things you speak of ... oh how so true that is. There is a certain melody the weather channel plays ... this song was playing all the time when Leeo was in the hospital his final week here on earth. That melody is hardly ever played now ... but when it does ... all those thoughts of that final time come rushing back .....................
> 
> Positive thoughts heading your way. Your pups know how much they are loved.


Abbylynn, thanks for keeping up with this thread. 

I'm sorry you've been through it. You no doubt know what it's like to go back and forth between optimism & sadness, doing all you can & feeling helpless, and just the plain out reality of what's happening.

Yes, so many reminders . . . and even though I don't want to, I keep thinking about what it will be like when he's not here. This little guy was always special to me since the night he found us, and since losing my husband and our Border Collie, he has been such an extra sweet companion and source of comfort, so I've never felt truly alone. 

Thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

Update: Took my little dog into the clinic this afternoon for lab work to check renal values since he's on two diuretics. 

The creatinine, phosphorous, and electrolytes checked out in normal ranges, and the BUN has risen from mid-twenties to 45, which they said is high, but to be expected due to the diuretics. 

At this point, it is a matter of balance . . . the diuretics hopefully reduce fluid accumulation, but can potentially cause kidney problems and the heart meds can help the heart pump more efficiently, but can also put a strain on the heart. 

We decided it best to stay the course with the currents meds, not increase or decrease anything, and then re-check the values in a month. 

I was extra concerned because just this afternoon he was having a gurgling sound - it was when he was breathing normally, not coughing or panting, and I feared that fluid was pooling . . . so I told the vet about it and she checked and his lungs sounded pretty clear and the murmur had not changed, which is great . . . she evidently didn't hear the sound, but said it might have been in his throat and to not worry about it, but of course, if anything seems to get worse, call or come in. 

So that's the latest from here ~


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## TobysDad (Aug 11, 2013)

Has your vet given any idea how long the medicines could potentially keep your baby's issues semi under control? You may have already mentioned, but are any of the current meds concerning as in creating issues themselves? Right now, Toby takes Soloxine for thyroid, and a form of Xanax before bed...so 'I' can get some sleep, and Tramadol for pain. I really only worry about the Xanax being habit forming, but don't really know what else to do because without it he can be restless at bedtime. It's difficult when the meds seem necessary but there is the worry of the side effects.


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## mw11 (Oct 2, 2013)

TobysDad said:


> Has your vet given any idea how long the medicines could potentially keep your baby's issues semi under control? You may have already mentioned, but are any of the current meds concerning as in creating issues themselves? Right now, Toby takes Soloxine for thyroid, and a form of Xanax before bed...so 'I' can get some sleep, and Tramadol for pain. I really only worry about the Xanax being habit forming, but don't really know what else to do because without it he can be restless at bedtime. It's difficult when the meds seem necessary but there is the worry of the side effects.


No, they have no way of knowing, and said every dog is different in how they respond to meds. One of the clinic vets and I had decided to cut back the Furosemide from three doses daily to two (to reduce the chance of kidney problems) and so he added the Spironolactone as a second diuretic. When I was talking with one of our original vets the other day, he was surprised when I told him that the Spironolactone seemed to significantly reduce the cough, because he said the Furosemide is usually the most effective. So really, it just depends on the individual dogs. As I wrote above, the diuretics can cause kidney problems and the heart meds can put extra strain on the heart. It's like a med can help one thing, but potentially create another problem. 

One of the most discouraging things in my little dog's case is that the vets all agree that the meds, even though they will help to some degree, are just basically buying more time. 

If the Xanax is helping him rest/sleep, you shouldn't worry too much about any chance of it being habit-forming, especially if they are controlling the dosage. 

Hope you guys are staying the course.


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