# Opinions on breeding brachycephalic(flat faced) breeds?



## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

I personally do not agree with the breeding of Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, Boston Tertiers, Japanese Chins, Pugs. Pekingese, etc. because of their inherent breathing and health issues due to their short muzzles and narrow nostrils. Bulldogs have to be born through c section, and Frenchies can't even breed naturally, requiring artificial insemination. If that isn't nature telling us to stop, I don't know what is...
Hearing these dogs snore, snort, and struggle for breath is heartbreaking. They overheat so easily as well. I know all breeds have issues and health testing is imperative, but isn't their a point where enough is enough(dogs unable to breed/give birth or BREATHE)


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Tjrsports said:


> I personally do not agree with the breeding of Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, Boston Tertiers, Japanese Chins, Pugs. Pekingese, etc. because of their inherent breathing and health issues due to their short muzzles and narrow nostrils. Bulldogs have to be born through c section, and Frenchies can't even breed naturally, requiring artificial insemination. If that isn't nature telling us to stop, I don't know what is...
> Hearing these dogs snore, snort, and struggle for breath is heartbreaking. They overheat so easily as well. I know all breeds have issues and health testing is imperative, but isn't their a point where enough is enough(dogs unable to breed/give birth or BREATHE)


 I know a good number Frenchies... Happy reasonably healthy dogs.

Not my kind of dogs..... But done right... I have no issue with it.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

There are better bred examples of such breeds,especially with Bostons and French bulldogs. Breeding them so they are not completely inverted muzzle wise,have open nares,and only breeding dogs with normal soft pallets will breed better and healthier dogs. Right now with dogs like Pugs and English bulldogs it's kind of a crap shoot,even if from the same litter. I've seen healthy and pretty functional Bulldogs and Pugs,and other ones not so lucky. While Bostons are still athletic and healthy dogs most of the time. So I do think people need to be aware of the issues,I also disapprove of breeds like Boxers,Rottweilers,Chows,Cane Corso and Tibetan Mastiffs becoming more and more Brachcepahlic.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Every pug and every English bulldog I've met has had serious breathing problems among other issues. Not to mention how much it messes up their teeth, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3552601/


















I really have issues with people breeding for traits that are directly related to health problems and/or physical limitations to the dog. It's selfish beyond imagination. Whether it's flat faces, excessive wrinkles, droopy eyelids, corkscrew tails, miniaturization.. I have no issue with variation and a dog with slightly longer ears or slightly curled tails is fine by me and super cute, but when a tail is curled so tight dogs are being born with ingrown tails and S-shaped spines then yeah I have a problem to rant about to the internet lol.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Agreed 100% with Sibe. I dislike breeding for extremities (...that often cause health issues). I don't appreciate the flat-faced look either. A dog should have a snout, and the nose should not be wedged between a dog's eyes. (I don't appreciate Persian cats either, though there are breeders who breed them with a more normal look)


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Not a popular opinion on this site, but i do not agree with the breeding of english bull dogs, pugs, pekineses, and i would not have an issue if those breeds went extinct


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Sibe said:


> I really have issues with people breeding for traits that are directly related to health problems and/or physical limitations to the dog. It's selfish beyond imagination. Whether it's flat faces, excessive wrinkles, droopy eyelids, corkscrew tails, miniaturization.. I have no issue with variation and a dog with slightly longer ears or slightly curled tails is fine by me and super cute, but when a tail is curled so tight dogs are being born with ingrown tails and S-shaped spines then yeah I have a problem to rant about to the internet lol.


This, this and this again. 

I know this is a very unpopular opinion but simply I do not believe there is a right way to breed extremely brachycephalic breeds (or any other extremely exaggerated breed), even if you health test and compete etc., _unless_ you are breeding for less exaggerated features.

A flat face is a deformity, period.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

As the owner of a brachy breed - I can tell you that I would love to see more dogs within the breed, bred to be HEALTHY.
Bulldogs come with a lot of health problems ranging from the obvious breathing problems, to the less obvious heat intolerance, cold intolerance, allergies, skin issues, they're prone to skin infections if their owner doesn't properly bathe and clean their rolls, eye issues including cherry eye are SUPER common in bulldogs. Hip problems, etc etc etc... they are money pits. 

Toby (although I am fairly certain he was a BYB "oops" or "hey your dogs cute, my dogs cute...") has very minimal health issues... 
His teeth are properly aligned, he doesn't breathe loudly, only snores in certain positions, does have allergies but as long as the allergens are avoided so are his skin problems. His rolls are more like wrinkles and don't require much attention, his eyes although buggier than a snouted dog, aren't as buggy as they could be, which means we're avoiding certain potential eye problems. He does have a heat intolerance, and he does shiver when he's cold (who doesn't?) but overall, he is really not much different than my friends shepherds.. He's rough and tumble, he runs full tilt - sometimes even faster than the shepherds, he jumps, he climbs, he pants, he's not disabled by being brachycephalic. 

I would like to see more brachy breeds bred towards what Toby is like. And bred towards being able to birth their young properly.

Wanted to add: Tobys snout is about half the length of my forefinger, maybe a little longer, he's not exaggerated at all (imo).


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## cma48 (Mar 30, 2014)

I wouldn't mind breeding flat faced dogs/cats as long as they were bred to a much healthier standard. So I guess they wouldn't really be considered flat face anymore. 

My sister was looking into English bulldogs but once she did the research she just didn't think it was right to purchase a dog that was bred to practically not breathe. She is looking into the much healthier Olde English Bulldog.


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

My husband and his sister are completely infatuated with the look of brachycephalic breeds. It's not my look, but I can see the aesthetic appeal. When we were looking at breeds my husband kept begging for every smooshed face he'd see, but they all came with a slue of health problems (that came with being a flat face) and the extra cost (since most of them like you said cannot be born naturally). At the end of the day though, it's not my place to say if they should be bred or not.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Sibe said:


> I really have issues with people breeding for traits that are directly related to health problems and/or physical limitations to the dog. It's selfish beyond imagination. Whether it's flat faces, excessive wrinkles, droopy eyelids, corkscrew tails, miniaturization.. I have no issue with variation and a dog with slightly longer ears or slightly curled tails is fine by me and super cute, but when a tail is curled so tight dogs are being born with ingrown tails and S-shaped spines then yeah I have a problem to rant about to the internet lol.


I agree.
I don't want to say they should stop being bred entirely, and there are plenty healthy examples of the breeds involved, but for the most part they tend to be just completely unhealthy. 
We're talking about a variety of dog that almost consistently has severe trouble breathing, highly prone to obesity, has poor elbows, patellas, hearts, can't give natural birth. I sort of feel like if something's structure is so wonky that it simply cannot give natural birth... why is it being bred?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> I sort of feel like if something's structure is so wonky that it simply cannot give natural birth... why is it being bred?


This. So much this.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Not a popular opinion on this site, but i do not agree with the breeding of english bull dogs, pugs, pekineses, and i would not have an issue if those breeds went extinct


Those three are the worst offenders... I would like them much better if they were bred to have more moderate muzzles. Even boston terrier length would be better.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Sibe said:


> I really have issues with people breeding for traits that are directly related to health problems and/or physical limitations to the dog. It's selfish beyond imagination. Whether it's flat faces, excessive wrinkles, droopy eyelids, corkscrew tails, miniaturization.. I have no issue with variation and a dog with slightly longer ears or slightly curled tails is fine by me and super cute, but when a tail is curled so tight dogs are being born with ingrown tails and S-shaped spines then yeah I have a problem to rant about to the internet lol.


Agreed. I just can't support breeding dogs who have health and vitality issues directly related to traits that breeders are trying to exaggerate. I'm sure not all flat faced dogs have issues, but I haven't met one that didn't snort and breathe loudly, and have issues being out in hot weather. I would be fine with it if the dogs were bred more moderately, but that's just not the direction the dog fancy is going. Even the dogs people put up as "moderate" for the breed aren't usually my definition of a moderate dog.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I own an American Bulldog, Johnson's Type so he has a long snout (not long compared to my Carolina Dog or HuskyxGSD but compared to the Scott's type or an English Bulldog) and a leggy athletic body. He does not have breathing problems though he does snore. I am comfortable with his body/snout type. Hubby is very fond of Boston Terriers and would like one in the future (I like them as well). I have seen the more smush faced Boston's but the Boston's I am more familiar with have the longer snouts like Duke and are generally healthier. I have no issue with them. Duke is not fond of extreme heat or cold but I think it has more to do with his coat than anything else. I had a pittie foster who felt the same way about cold (similar coat type) and Remus is not fond of heat, he can still run in it but he doesn't love it. Duke isn't the one laying in my tiled entry way panting when the AC in the house is set at 80 (and Remus comes from a long line of feral dogs).


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Not a popular opinion on this site, but i do not agree with the breeding of english bull dogs, pugs, pekineses, and i would not have an issue if those breeds went extinct


agree'd 100%


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Nowhere in nature would brachycephalic breeds endure. This is purely a human invention. Yep, they are cute, yep they sought after. But I personally think it is horrific that we (as humans) have saddled these dogs with living a truly horrific life. The fact that dogs don't dwell on their fate, thus simply be funny little clowns that we want, is beside the point. But guess what....it is not just brachycephalic breeds...purebred breeds in general are not what they used to be. ALL of our popular breeds, and most of the more non-popular breeds are not being bred not with true health in mind, but for the ego of breeders (thanks to social media today). I actually chose my breed of choice due to what I thought was a breed that thankfully was healthy...but in 30 years...and particularly in the last 10...it was more important to be "famous" with show wins, than to actually be honest...so in other words...a big winning dog may have failed some health tests, but that IS OKAY because on social media, this dog is great. It is sad for potential puppy buyers because in the early days, we wanted people to go with "AKC" breeders..but today they don't care either. 

Health-wise...your odds are just as good getting a dog from the shelter as you are getting a purebred from a supposed "ethical" breeder. I was in that world for a long time, and I left that world because I found out that breeders were lying to breeders...so heck yeah...they have no problem lying to "mere" puppy buyers. 

Lots of really, really cute dogs in shelters. Lots and lots of dogs that find themselves in prison due to the hubris of humans. Why spend $2,000-$3,000 on a purebred whose breeder knowingly bred a dog that didn't pass health screenings, but who was a famous show dog, as opposed to a dog in the shelter that actually will provide the whole human/dog interaction we love? Hey...I used to be a champion of the "ethical" breeder...but as a player in that world for a long time...I realized that really doesn't exist anymore. I've known dogs on TV with Westminster and the like...know those dogs and their breeders personally...know those dogs haven't passed crucial health screenings. TV wants you to believe these "purebreds" are bred by ethical people. But that is simply TV...not reality. Same as Spiderman. Spiderman doesn't exist either.

I worked hard to try to breed healthy, correct dogs...I was actually sought after because of my dogs...until a very rich person tried to woo me...I could have ridden years of "highs" with the money and notoriety proposed by this person....but I caught them in a lie regarding the "flagship" dog of their breeding program. They told me this dog passed a test that it hadn't passed. I'm sure they thought because they were offering me a "sweet deal" that I would either not look, or at the very least, ignore it...but that is not who I am. 

I love French Bulldogs, I love Pugs...I love a lot of other really nice other purebreds....Cavaliers, collies, dobermans, belgians...GSD's....so many...but I know the game now with wide eyes. I used to play the game. I used to herald the "purebred." It is a sham. It was not an easy road for me to diverge from...from now on....I'm going to not only get my dogs from shelters, I'm going to get them from "death row." I want the dogs that others think can't be placed. I want dogs that humans have royally screwed. 

Why are brachycephalic breeds so expensive? Because they CAN'T BREED NATURALLY. They can't GIVE BIRTH NATURALLY. It is more cost for the breeder. These are dogs that shouldn't BE. I am loathe to put money into the hands of people who perpetuate this atrocity.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

These Bulldogs can breath well enough to take on a bear...

http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/25479746/english-bulldogs-chase-bear-up-a-tree-in-nh


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> These Bulldogs can breath well enough to take on a bear...
> 
> http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/25479746/english-bulldogs-chase-bear-up-a-tree-in-nh


Lol running a few feet means they can "breath well enough to take on a bear??" I hardly call that taking on a bear,they FRIGHTENED a black bear,and ran for less than a min, not that hard to do, how about an english bull dog who hog hunts?or an english bull dog who ACTUALLY HUNTS anything? Running after an animal for a few seconds means nothing.Even dogs i have seen with breathing problems who needed surgery to open up their nostrils, can run a few feet when their is an animal, bull dogs are still hard headed and prey driven.An extremely obese bull dog with terrible nostrils at the kennel i worked at would get ALL kinds of round up with other dogs and was severely dog aggressive, she turned blue on us once, just because a dog will push itself doesn't mean that they don't have problems, but i think, even for that obese bull dog i knew, running after a bear for a few seconds would not be that strenuous

EDIT: i would like to add that those bull dogs DO move better than some of the other bull dogs i have met


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, I'm going to say this just once and put the thread on ignore:

I don't agree that animals who have inherent difficulties with their health as a result of their breeding being bred. HOWEVER, a dog making noise when breathing is not the same thing as a dog with a health issue. Yes, there may be airway obstruction and low oxygen levels and problems that come from that, but NOISE does not automatically equal distress.

Frankly, my overly extreme faced Boston with bad knees and a grade IV heart murmur can hike for 10 miles in even slightly moderate weather, and she's 7 years old. She sounds like a freight train but it's because she has a slightly elongated soft palate. It is not a negative influence on her life, her ability to be active, or her health. When I babied her, she got fat and had a harder time - because I babied her, and she was fat not fit. And she's not well bred, as is evidenced by knee/heart/lack of hearing/allergies/everything in the world.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Lol running a few feet means they can "breath well enough to take on a bear??" I hardly call that taking on a bear,they FRIGHTENED a black bear,and ran for less than a min, not that hard to do, how about an english bull dog who hog hunts?or an english bull dog who ACTUALLY HUNTS anything? Running after an animal for a few seconds means nothing.Even dogs i have seen with breathing problems who needed surgery to open up their nostrils, can run a few feet when their is an animal, bull dogs are still hard headed and prey driven.An extremely obese bull dog with terrible nostrils at the kennel i worked at would get ALL kinds of round up with other dogs and was severely dog aggressive, she turned blue on us once, just because a dog will push itself doesn't mean that they don't have problems, but i think, even for that obese bull dog i knew, running after a bear for a few seconds would not be that strenuous


LOL No but it was funny. 

And as you know I have done a BUNCH of hog hunting with dogs...

I would say an English bull would be dead long before breathing became an issue.... 

So would a lot of breeds that do not have breathing issues.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> LOL No but it was funny.
> 
> And as you know I have done a BUNCH of hog hunting with dogs...
> 
> ...


Just wanna say, i do not think ALL dog breeds need to be capable of hunting, BUT i just don't consider what those bull dogs did as proving anything


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Just wanna say, i do not think ALL dog breeds need to be capable of hunting, BUT i just don't consider what those bull dogs did as proving anything


I already said I posted it because I thought it was funny...

Figured the thread could use some humor....


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

BostonBullMama said:


> Toby (although I am fairly certain he was a BYB "oops" or "hey your dogs cute, my dogs cute...") has very minimal health issues...
> His teeth are properly aligned, he doesn't breathe loudly, only snores in certain positions, does have allergies but as long as the allergens are avoided so are his skin problems. His rolls are more like wrinkles and don't require much attention, his eyes although buggier than a snouted dog, aren't as buggy as they could be, which means we're avoiding certain potential eye problems. He does have a heat intolerance, and he does shiver when he's cold (who doesn't?) but overall, he is really not much different than my friends shepherds.. He's rough and tumble, he runs full tilt - sometimes even faster than the shepherds, he jumps, he climbs, he pants, he's not disabled by being brachycephalic.
> 
> I would like to see more brachy breeds bred towards what Toby is like. And bred towards being able to birth their young properly.
> ...


He does look like he's got a decent snout to him. IMO breeding to a more moderate structure is the only ethical way to go with brachy breeds. It's not great to listen to a dog wheeze and cough, choking on their own soft palate. You don't even really need to sacrifice the bulldog look...

















Compared to....


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I posted my opinion about this in a thread I made not too long ago. When bred properly, a brachy breed will not suffer any more than another breed. Like CptJack, I will also be ignoring this thread. So many people insist that all brachy dogs are suffering and shouldn't be alive (which I will agree that SOME of them ARE suffering) and it's frustrating as an owner of a Brachy dog. Being guilted when so many other breeds can suffer just as much, if not more... just ugh

Here's the thread I made if you guys want to know more. I know CptJack posted some pretty sound opinions that I 100% agree with.
http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/249018-brachycephalic-breeds-feeling-guilty.html


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I posted my opinion about this in a thread I made not too long ago. When bred properly, a brachy breed will not suffer any more than another breed. Like CptJack, I will also be ignoring this thread. So many people insist that all brachy dogs are suffering and shouldn't be alive (which I will agree that SOME of them ARE suffering) and it's frustrating as an owner of a Brachy dog. Being guilted when so many other breeds can suffer just as much, if not more... just ugh
> 
> Here's the thread I made if you guys want to know more. I know CptJack posted some pretty sound opinions that I 100% agree with.
> http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/249018-brachycephalic-breeds-feeling-guilty.html


I don't much care for the look of Brachy breeds, but I agree with this. I've met healthy versions of these breeds and the snout length didn't seem to make a difference. I've met lots of other more moderate breeds with health problems so bad, I can't imagine the everyday pain they go through. Should we be breeding them? I don't know. Cavs are health issues galor. Dachshunds have back problems. Didn't we just discuss Dalmatians? Giant breeds don't live long. Maybe we shouldn't breed anything pure.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I don't much care for the look of Brachy breeds, but I agree with this. I've met healthy versions of these breeds and the snout length didn't seem to make a difference. I've met lots of other more moderate breeds with health problems so bad, I can't imagine the everyday pain they go through. Should we be breeding them? I don't know. Cavs are health issues galor. Dachshunds have back problems. Didn't we just discuss Dalmatians? Giant breeds don't live long. Maybe we shouldn't breed anything pure.


I don't see how the fact that some breeds have it worse makes it okay to breed brachycephalic breeds... Making a list of other breeds that have health problems is irrelevant to this discussion (even though I personally don't support breeding CKCS, Dalmatians, BMDs and a plethora of other breeds ridden with diseases either. And also personally, I believe that closed stud-books are an aberration).

There are in fact studies that prove that brachycephalic breeds are more prone to a variety of ailments caused by/related to their flat faces. This one, for example: http://www.sciencedirect.com.lmu.idm.oclc.org/science/article/pii/S1090023313004280

"The extent and severity of clinical signs and the deterioration of quality of life revealed in this study demonstrate that the breeding of dogs with pronounced brachycephaly is an animal welfare concern."

Like Sibe, I've also read articles about dental problems in brachy breeds.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I don't much care for the look of Brachy breeds, but I agree with this. I've met healthy versions of these breeds and the snout length didn't seem to make a difference. I've met lots of other more moderate breeds with health problems so bad, I can't imagine the everyday pain they go through. Should we be breeding them? I don't know. Cavs are health issues galor. Dachshunds have back problems. Didn't we just discuss Dalmatians? Giant breeds don't live long. Maybe we shouldn't breed anything pure.


Well I kind of consider Brachys a crap shoot like Dalmatians or double merles,your breeding for specific traits that can have real negative health problems but being theirs also a chance of getting a good dog or two from the litter it supposedly makes it all okay.
Others dogs have issues as well,there has been inbreeding discussions I believe that do relate to them,giant breeds can live longer if well bred. That is why some giant breeds like Tibetan Mastiffs,Anatolian shepherds and somewhat Newfoundlands are about as long lived as many medium-large breeds. I won't deny other issues in breeds and types but I find it rather distracting when someone refused to talk about problems in their own breed or type and throw other breeds under the bus instead,if you want to talk about problems with Rottweilers or any other of my favorite breed I`m all for it.
Not breed anything pure? We can improve dog breeding,and look to and study purebreds that are more healthy and athletic without giving up on dogs all together.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

The breeder of these dogs OFA tests (Trachea, elbows, hips, thyroid, heart, patella, CERF, etc...) them out the wazoo, but they have flat faces so clearly they cannot breathe or do anything and are suffering and dying.









I've seen some brachy breeds in HORRIBLE shape but I've also seen many who are as fit as a fiddle (we have many of them on this board).


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> The breeder of these dogs OFA tests (Trachea, elbows, hips, thyroid, heart, patella, CERF, etc...) them out the wazoo, but they have flat faces so clearly they cannot breathe or do anything and are suffering and dying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But no one here has said that ALL brachycephalic dogs were unhealthy... I've seen photos similar to those you have posted and the dogs can obviously run. However, this doesn't mean that they couldn't run even better with longer snouts and wider nares. Plus there is scientific evidence that flat faces are detrimental to the dogs, like the study I posted (the sample of tested dogs is not that big, 100 dogs, but the median age was only 3.33 years old and the findings speak for themselves). I've seen more studies that came to similar conclusions, I'll see if I can find them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Whistlejacket said:


> But no one here has said that ALL brachycephalic dogs were unhealthy... I've seen photos similar to those you have posted and the dogs can obviously run. However, this doesn't mean that they couldn't run even better with longer snouts and wider nares. Plus there is scientific evidence that flat faces are detrimental to the dogs, like the study I posted (the sample of tested dogs is not that big, 100 dogs, but the median age was only 3.33 years old and the findings speak for themselves). I've seen more studies that came to similar conclusions, I'll see if I can find them.


Well, how about the fact that giant breeds would have longer lives if they were moderately sized, as well as having fewer health issues?

Or the incidence of deafness and urinary problems in Dals being lower if they were outcrossed?

Or the cranial/neurological/heart issues that affect ALMOST ALL cav. spaniels?

Or cancer rates in flat coated retrievers (enormous - like really, really big.)?

Or the health issues associated with being tiny instead of more moderate (knees issues, low blood sugar, dental issues)?

WHY ARE BRACHY BREEDS THE ONES BEING PICKED ON? They have no more issues, overall, than MANY popular breeds that people don't have these 'ethical issues' with the breeding of. And yet....

I'm not claiming all brachy dogs are healthy. I am saying that deciding to focus on them as the example of dogs who shouldn't ethically be bred because of something related to their genetic or confirmation is just absolutely stupid. It's as possible to breed a healthy, moderate, active brachy breed as anything else and MORE easily done than something like a dal, cav, or flat-coat where health issues are more standard than not.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Well, how about the fact that giant breeds would have longer lives if they were moderately sized, as well as having fewer health issues?
> 
> Or the incidence of deafness and urinary problems in Dals being lower if they were outcrossed?
> 
> ...


That's what I was trying to get at.. but I'm not good at arguing. I'll just step out now.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> That's what I was trying to get at.. but I'm not good at arguing. I'll just step out now.


I am crap at arguing and am stepping back out because the whole attitude you are arguing against (I'm on your side) is baloney. Either apply it across the board - and I could keep going with dogs who have massive health issues that are continuing to be bred without anyone giving people gruff for it - or just admit its because you think they're ugly and you're disturbed by the way some of them sometimes sound when they breathe.

Because honest to god, if you gave me the choice between a dog who has a short face, snorts and snores and needs a c-section (by the way, do we apply this to any dog who has needed a c-section? if a dog can't deliver naturally do we remove it from the breeding pool, or just assume that sometimes crap happens) nd a dog who had a 95% chance of having cancer before 7, an almost 100% risk of major heart and neurological issues, or very high odds of becoming paralyzed...

The list can go on. On the scale of things that negatively impact a dog that peopel knowingly breed, a dog who breathes loudly isn't really on my list of things to care about and bring down the judgement hammer on.

Again: Bug is a badly bred dog, and I can tell you right now that I would keep her 'breathing issues' (she snorts and snores) and lose the ones NOT associated with the shape of her face in a heartbeat. The ones that actually, you know, negatively impact her quality of life. That are also genetic. That are associated with the breed. But not the shape of her head. Argh.


If the question were 'opinions on breeding extreme examples of dogs' there would be no argument from me, but that's not what's being argued or said.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Well, how about the fact that giant breeds would have longer lives if they were moderately sized, as well as having fewer health issues?
> 
> Or the incidence of deafness and urinary problems in Dals being lower if they were outcrossed?
> 
> ...


I've seen those dogs picked on plenty especially on other sites,and have discussed them before,in fact breeds like GSD's are picked on about as harshly as Brachy dogs. Yet it seems no one ever wants to talk about their own breeds on these sites. If you mention small dogs having bad teeth or the problem with tea cups they bring up giant dogs instead,in fact giant dogs are often thrown under the bus in any conversation. I do like to keep threads on topic though,sense I would think if you care about your breed you would take off your rose colored glasses and want to help it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Foresthund said:


> I've seen those dogs picked on plenty especially on other sites,and have discussed them before,in fact breeds like GSD's are picked on about as harshly as Brachy dogs. Yet it seems no one ever wants to talk about their own breeds on these sites. If you mention small dogs having bad teeth or the problem with tea cups they bring up giant dogs instead,in fact giant dogs are often thrown under the bus in any conversation. I do like to keep threads on topic though,sense I would think if you care about your breed you would take off your rose colored glasses and want to help it.


Yep! The thing for me is this:

We're not talking about helping it. We're taling, in this thread, on this topic, about whether they should be bred at ALL. And not a single breed, but an entire, giant, CLASS of breeds that have nothing in common except their face shape. They even have different health issues, except for that face shape. And that face shape creates the fewest, mildest, and LEAST quality of life impacting issues that many of them face. Using this classification you're lumping boxers and shih-tzus. Little hard to say 'how we'd help make it better' when the question posed is a-) should they be bred at all, and b-) you're talking about RADICALLY different breeds, with radically different health issues.


It's seriously like trying to say 'No one should breed toy or giant dogs, because those both come with health issues'. Yeah, maybe, sort of, but it's a dumb freaking statement because it covers WAY too many breeds to be useful. 

The answer's even self-evident as the people here pulling their hair out are saying: Don't buy or support breeders who are breeding to such extremes that the dog's qualify of life is impacted by that trait. Boom, done. It's made better. Go give your money to someone who's seeing what you want in the breed. Will it fix things entirely? No, but it's more practical than 'STOP BREEDING THEM' because all nonsense aside, that's never going to happen. It covers too many breeds, anyway.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Well, how about the fact that giant breeds would have longer lives if they were moderately sized, as well as having fewer health issues?
> 
> Or the incidence of deafness and urinary problems in Dals being lower if they were outcrossed?
> 
> ...


Quoting myself:



Whistlejacket said:


> (even though I personally don't support breeding CKCS, Dalmatians, BMDs and a plethora of other breeds ridden with diseases either. And also personally, I believe that closed stud-books are an aberration).


Yes, I do care about all the breeds and all the health issues you mentioned. I have read on all of them and feel angry and helpless about all of them. I still don't see how they make breeding dogs that have no noses any more okay or any less worthy of mentioning.

I like to talk about the health issues that come with extreme brachycephaly specifically because frenchies and pugs are very much in fashion at the moment and therefore popular. People find them cute but they often have no idea of the health issues that consistently come with a flat face. 

Am I quick to point out the problems with brachy breeds when someone asks about them? Yup. I am quick to point out the rate of cancer in golden retrievers or BMDs, the lifespans of great danes or Irish wolfounds or the back problems dachshunds and corgis are cursed with if someone asks about them? Also yes.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Tjrsports said:


> I personally do not agree with the breeding of Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, Boston Tertiers, Japanese Chins, Pugs. Pekingese, etc. because of their inherent breathing and health issues due to their short muzzles and narrow nostrils. Bulldogs have to be born through c section, and Frenchies can't even breed naturally, requiring artificial insemination. If that isn't nature telling us to stop, I don't know what is...
> Hearing these dogs snore, snort, and struggle for breath is heartbreaking. They overheat so easily as well. I know all breeds have issues and health testing is imperative, but isn't their a point where enough is enough(dogs unable to breed/give birth or BREATHE)


Just want to say... Many Boston breeders (and some Bulldog) are working toward bitches who can free whelp (xraying birthing canal) and only using C-sections as an emergency resort. There ARE breeders who genuinely care and are doing everything they can to help their breed of choice.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Whistlejacket said:


> Quoting myself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thing is, most brachy breeds HAVE NO ISSUES WITH BREATHING, ENERGY, STAMINA, OR HEALTH related to their short muzzles. ESPECIALLY given the number of breeds included in that, with some being more prone to having Brachycephalic airway syndrome than others. It's A HUGE GROUP OF DOGS that share that trait, and the vast majority of individual AND breeds suffer *no ill effects* from having a short nose, except maybe some heat intolerance and being prone to being loud when they breathe. Heck, you take the whole group and there are tons that don't even have *that*.

So singling a short muzzle out as an indicator of health or vitality or stamina is just... beyond bizarre. Putting it on par with near 100% cancer rates is just laughably ridiculous. All those breeds have issues, and some of them are related to structure, but the vast majority aren't with the structure of their *nose*.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

CptJack said:


> The thing is, most brachy breeds HAVE NO ISSUES WITH BREATHING, ENERGY, STAMINA, OR HEALTH related to their short muzzles. ESPECIALLY given the number of breeds included in that, with some being more prone to having Brachycephalic airway syndrome than others. It's A HUGE GROUP OF DOGS that share that trait, and the vast majority of individual AND breeds suffer *no ill effects* from having a short nose, except maybe some heat intolerance and being prone to being loud when they breathe. Heck, you take the whole group and there are tons that don't even have *that*.
> 
> So singling a short muzzle out as an indicator of health or vitality or stamina is just... beyond bizarre. Putting it on par with near 100% cancer rates is just laughably ridiculous. All those breeds have issues, and some of them are related to structure, but the vast majority aren't with the structure of their *nose*.


And I find it laughably ridiculous to ignore scientific evidence in favour of anecdotal experience. And you keep saying that some breeds have worse problems (which no one here has denied) and comparing them to brachycephaly but again, I don't see how that is relevant because again, no one here has denied this. In fact I started a thread a while ago, I believe it was last summer, about outcrossing to reduce genetic problems in breeds like tollers and CKCS.

You certainly have had more direct contact with brachy breeds than I have since you live with a Boston terrier, and I believe you when you talk about what she can do in spite of her health issues. I'm not denying that brachy dogs, at least some of them, can still enjoy life in spite of their health issues. What I don't condone is to keep breeding these dogs for something that _has been proven_ to be related to severe health issues that affect quite a lot of them, to variable extends. 

You do have a point when you say that not all brachy breeds suffer the same issues and I was specifically referring to extremely brachy breeds like frenchies, pugs, pekes and English bulldogs; I don't really like the noses and nostrils on boxers, Boston terriers or dogues de Bordeaux either but I don't think I've seen any studies on these breeds.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> (even though I personally don't support breeding CKCS, Dalmatians, BMDs and a plethora of other breeds ridden with diseases either.


Guessing I need to tell my 10 1/2 year old Cavalier who has a CPE C-ATCH title and is close to getting a C-ATCH 2 title that she is ridden with diseases. She thought she was in pretty good shape. My other 3, the youngest being 9 1/2 and the oldest being almost 13 with NO heart murmur or any sign of SM are probably on death's door too. Poor dogs, I guess I better tell them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So Cavalier said:


> Guessing I need to tell my 10 1/2 year old Cavalier who has a CPE C-ATCH title and is close to getting a C-ATCH 2 title that she is ridden with diseases. She thought she was in pretty good shape. My other 3, the youngest being 9 1/2 and the oldest being almost 13 with NO heart murmur or any sign of SM are probably on death's door too. Poor dogs, I guess I better tell them.


To be clear:

I am not saying that all Cavs are riddled with health issues and shouldn't be bred. I'm just saying that ALL breeds have health issues, some of them much more severe than the results of having a a short muzzle.

And frankly, WhistleJacket, if you dont' support breeding dogs with health issues, you've pretty much knocked out 95% of purebred dogs, because MOST breeds have some pretty major issues associated with them. That doesn't mean individual dogs are ill, unfit, or incapable. The answer is not 'stop breeding those dogs!' the answer is 'breed healthy ones, be careful and maybe think about your views regarding closed stud books'. 

Because ain't nobody giving up *their* breeds. Make them better and healthier? ABSOLUTELY! Stop breeding? Never going to happen. Not only never going to happen, shouldn't happen in regard to what amounts to hysterical overreaction to hyperbolic propaganda.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

CptJack, can you post any studies that *Most* Brachie breeds do not have breathing problems?


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

So Cavalier said:


> Guessing I need to tell my 10 1/2 year old Cavalier who has a CPE C-ATCH title and is close to getting a C-ATCH 2 title that she is ridden with diseases. She thought she was in pretty good shape. My other 3, the youngest being 9 1/2 and the oldest being almost 13 with NO heart murmur or any sign of SM are probably on death's door too. Poor dogs, I guess I better tell them.


I said the breed is ridden with diseases, not that all the dogs were. And I don't think anyone can argue that CKCS are a generally healthy breed...


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

CptJack said:


> To be clear:
> 
> And frankly, WhistleJacket, if you dont' support breeding dogs with health issues, you've pretty much knocked out 95% of purebred dogs, because MOST breeds have some pretty major issues associated with them. That doesn't mean individual dogs are ill, unfit, or incapable.


And we agree on that, because that's what I've been saying all along. I've never said that all dogs of a given breed were affected by a breed-specific health issue, that was never my point.



CptJack said:


> The answer is not 'stop breeding those dogs!' the answer is 'breed healthy ones, be careful and maybe think about your views regarding closed stud books'.
> 
> Because ain't nobody giving up *their* breeds. Make them better and healthier? ABSOLUTELY! Stop breeding? Never going to happen. Not only never going to happen, shouldn't happen in regard to what amounts to hysterical overreaction to hyperbolic propaganda.


And I also agree with this. I never said brachy breeds shouldn't be bred at all. If you look at my first post on the thread, I said that I didn't support their breeding unless they were being bred for less exaggerated features, which is what I believe is true for brachy breeds as well as all breeds that are overly wrinkled/low-legged/flat-faced etc.

As for closed stud-books, I still believe that closed gene pools are bad for our breeds and that introducing new blood into a breed (not just random dogs of course, healthy ones that could really bring something to an existing breed) is good for it. I don't think that open stud-books and maintaining distinct breeds are incompatible (the LUA dalmatians are a good example of this).

EDIT: and regarding your first point, yes, I am aware that it means knocking out a lot of breeds, including breeds that I like very much. I will not buy from breeders that produce very unhealthy breeds, even breeds that I love and would love to own - English bull terriers come to mind, I love them but I just can't support breeding them unless they are being outcrossed (and backcrossed).


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Well, how about the fact that giant breeds would have longer lives if they were moderately sized, as well as having fewer health issues?
> 
> Or the incidence of deafness and urinary problems in Dals being lower if they were outcrossed?
> 
> ...


Um... We *just* had a thread where many (including myself) argued that breeding Dalmatians with a significant euth rate for deafness is irresponsible. No one is picking on brachy breeds here, the topic just came up. 

I'm also not sure what you prove with this list. Breeding away from those problems is something absolutely everyone I can think of supports. I can't think of anyone who would argue those are desirable qualities and should be written in standard or celebrated in the showring.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> I'm just saying that ALL breeds have health issues,





> And frankly, WhistleJacket, if you dont' support breeding dogs with health issues, you've pretty much knocked out 95% of purebred dogs, because MOST breeds have some pretty major issues associated with them. That doesn't mean individual dogs are ill, unfit, or incapable. The answer is not 'stop breeding those dogs!' the answer is 'breed healthy ones, be careful and maybe think about your views regarding closed stud books'.
> 
> Because ain't nobody giving up *their* breeds. Make them better and healthier? ABSOLUTELY! Stop breeding? Never going to happen. Not only never going to happen, shouldn't happen in regard to what amounts to hysterical overreaction to hyperbolic propaganda.


100% agreement on these points. Personally, I would like to see DA bred out of breeds known for this tendency. Do I want to see them extinct? no.

My point for my initial post is that not all Cavaliers are ready to drop dead at a moment's notice. Yes, they have problems...the main one being groups of breeders who have buried their heads in the sand for way too long. Luckily there are breeders out there who are willing to look at the breeding protocols and are willing to do what is necessary to improve of overall soundness of this wonderful breed that I love so dearly.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

You know, rereading this thread is sad... Being told that people would feel better if dogs like my dog went extinct because they don't like their faces.... Nice.

Instead of bashing the breeds, why not promote the ideas of trying to improve them (I know many of you have already stated this is what you'd like to see).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> You know, rereading this thread is sad... Being told that people would feel better if dogs like my dog went extinct because they don't like their faces.... Nice.
> 
> Instead of bashing the breeds, why not promote the ideas of trying to improve them (I know many of you have already stated this is what you'd like to see).


And I'm going to be honest, this is why I am so ticked off by this thread.

It's singling out a physical trait that only creates any health issue in _extremity_, because it's visible and, honestly? The only thing I can come up with a reason for that is that it makes people uncomfortable or they think it's ugly. I'd love to see more moderate dogs being bred, not just for brachy breeds but MANY breeds. The whole 'no dog with this trait I don't like should be bred and I'm going to justify it with misinformation'... annoys the CRAP out of me. I'm not even going to pretend I'm not taking it personally. I *am* taking it personally and I'm taking it personally because I LIKE MY FREAKING DOG and what's being debated is if she is fit to EXIST.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

CptJack said:


> And I'm going to be honest, this is why I am so ticked off by this thread.
> 
> It's singling out a physical trait that only creates any health issue in _extremity_, because it's visible and, honestly? The only thing I can come up with a reason for that is that it makes people uncomfortable or they think it's ugly. I'd love to see more moderate dogs being bred, not just for brachy breeds but MANY breeds. The whole 'no dog with this trait I don't like should be bred and I'm going to justify it with misinformation'... annoys the CRAP out of me. I'm not even going to pretend I'm not taking it personally. I *am* taking it personally and I'm taking it personally because I LIKE MY FREAKING DOG and what's being debated is if she is fit to EXIST.


I'm so happy you're here to express exactly how I feel in better words. lol 

Thank you, CptJack, thank you...


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Adjecyca1 said:


> CptJack, can you post any studies that *Most* Brachie breeds do not have breathing problems?


Reasking this


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

No, I personally do not have a study. You win. We're wrong. Better go kill my dog because she's suffering due to being brachy and feel bad for ever wanting her.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I really don't see why this is so personally offensive... I don't think _anyone_ wants your brachy dogs dead or thinks they're better off not being alive! I for one think that we should breed away from DA in bully breeds, and I _have_ a DA bully breed dog! Obviously I don't want my dog dead because she's suffering nor do I feel bad for choosing a DA bully breed dog. But I don't mind people talking about different opinions regarding DA tendencies.

So what if people want to discuss the health problems in a type of dog and how they believe it's being dealt with? I've seen multiple threads on this type of topic (regarding different types/breeds) so I don't know why this is ruffling so many feathers here.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Eenypup said:


> I really don't see why this is so personally offensive... I don't think _anyone_ wants your brachy dogs dead or thinks they're better off not being alive! I for one think that we should breed away from DA in bully breeds, and I _have_ a DA bully breed dog! Obviously I don't want my dog dead because she's suffering nor do I feel bad for choosing a DA bully breed dog. But I don't mind people talking about different opinions regarding DA tendencies.
> 
> So what if people want to discuss the health problems in a type of dog and how they believe it's being dealt with? I've seen multiple threads on this type of topic (regarding different types/breeds) so I don't know why this is ruffling so many feathers here.



Some of the people, yes, and we haven't disagreed with them.

"Shoudl brachy breeds be bred?" is the question that started this thread. Not should they be bred less extremely, not should they be bred away from health issues present in other dogs, just if they should be bread because the trait of having a short nose automatically compromises the dog's quality of life.

And that's crap.

So is the fact that some of these people have, in other threads, said that they can't act like 'normal dogs', and other offensive, ridiculous, misinformed, nonsensical statements. They're even more ridiculous, overblown, offensive, and stupid when you look at the number of breeds considered brachy.

So, yeah. It's down to: "SHOULD ANY OF THESE MANY BREEDS EXIST?" 

You want to talk about more moderate breeding, as I've said, I'm there. You want to talk about if the breeds should continue? NOPE. Not ok. It's the difference between breeding away from DA and suggesting all dogs who have DA as a breed trait no longer be bred at all.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Studies? Well, I can't find the link to the original, but there is this:



> Thirty-one of the 285 dogs, including Boston terriers, bulldogs, Cavalier King Charles spaniels, French bulldogs, Pekingese and pugs, had been diagnosed with brachycephalic airway syndrome.


Here's your link. It actually cites a study, unlike people who just keep saying that they must have difficulties because they're loud (my vet disagrees, but I know he's just one guy - but he's one guy who supports this). 

It's not tiny. It's not non-existent. It is a problem. It is, however, a long freaking way from MOST or ALL, or almost all.


Which is not NONE or a tiny number, and it's certainly something that should be bred away from but it's a heck of a long way from MOST and ALL.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> what's being debated is if she is fit to EXIST.


I mean if we're talking misinformation here, well that's just not true. Pretty much everyone has said they would like to see moderation and those few who have suggested its unethical to breed at all have given a laundry list of problems. Its totally disingenuous to suggest that "ugliness" is the basis of health concerns in bulldogs. Plus, absolutely no one has said Bug doesn't have the right to exist. The question is whether a single trait which she happens to have is a sound breeding criteria. You yourself have listed tonnes of reasons why her breeding shouldn't have been performed on the criteria it was. 

Taking the discussion to "right to exist" just negates everything we talk about when we discuss ethical breeding. Do those double merle dogs have a right to exist? The mill puppies? My epileptic mess of a rescue? Sure, now that they're here they have a right to their lives and happiness. Does that mean that breeding them on those criteria was ethical? No!! We can separate a living thing's right to exist from the ethics of creating a new life. 

Personally, I don't think its right to intentionally create health concerns in dogs - and that's what the more extreme structures do. Its not a complicated problem of unknown etiology that breeders are madly searching to fix. The cause is clear, and it was chosen specifically and celebrated in the showring. In that manner its very different from other health concerns . You're right its not a unique problem to extreme brachy breeds. I count extreme wrinkling corkscrew tails, breeding to "teacup" size and others as indications of a problem in the dog fancy as well. If we know how to make an animal healthier and hardier and we don't... What are we doing as breeders? Pugs with longer snouts would be just as goofy and awesome, what is really lost except the look?

I think you know I have _a lot_ of respect for you CptJack, and of course I don't intend to attack anyone or their dogs personally. I'm not saying any animal does not have the right to exist. What I'm saying though is breeding criteria *should* be stringent and should prioritize health above looks. Every time.



> It's the difference between breeding away from DA and suggesting all dogs who have DA as a breed trait no longer be bred at all.


Is that really any different? If a dog is DA and the breed is trying to breed away from DA it follows that dog should not be bred...


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Yeah no, choosing not to breed particular dogs due to health problems does not mean those specific dogs aren't fit to exist. I do not agree with culling puppies or euthanizing dogs with good quality of life, but would I breed merle to merle knowing it would result in puppies with health problems? No! If I came across a double merle puppy would I think it was disgusting and not fit to live, absolutely not!! 

Thinking a dog is fit to be bred in order to better the breed and thinking a dog is fit to exist are two totally different things.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Eenypup said:


> Yeah no, choosing not to breed particular dogs due to health problems does not mean those specific dogs aren't fit to exist. I do not agree with culling puppies or euthanizing dogs with good quality of life, but would I breed merle to merle knowing it would result in puppies with health problems? No! If I came across a double merle puppy would I think it was disgusting and not fit to live, absolutely not!!
> 
> Thinking a dog is fit to be bred in order to better the breed and thinking a dog is fit to exist are two totally different things.


Absolutely.

The thing here is? The question phrased isn't 'extreme faced brachy breeds', or 'dogs who suffer issues as a result of their cranial shape'. It's... an all encompassing question put up for debate. That bothers me. It's a question if the BREEDS THEMSELVES should exist. And that's a debatable topic, for sure. 

It's just one I happen to take offense at, because I own and love one of those dogs and I love the breed. Do I think more selective breeding for a more reasonable muzzle would be a good thing? HECK YES! Do I think Boston Terriers, Pugs, Bulldogs, Boxers, and Shih-Tzus should stop being bred? No.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

you cant just take an article and pick out the one piece of information that suits your argument and ignore the rest to make a point.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Studies? Well, I can't find the link to the original, but there is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't have much time right now so I'll come back later to answer some other points that have been raised, but I just wanted to ask quickly about the article you posted since it actually agrees that brachycephaly is a problem for a lot of dogs. It clearly states that most owners don't realise that their dogs have problems breathing and that's why they don't ask a vet for a diagnosis. Maybe I read it wrong but I thought that the reason why "only" 31 dogs had been diagnosed with BOAS was precisely lack of owner awareness. How did you understand the article?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

"According to researchers, this indicates many owners of pets with brachycephalic airway syndrome don’t realize a problem exists and don’t seek help from a veterinarian. According to Rowena Packer of the Royal Veterinary College and one of the study researchers:

"Our study clearly shows that owners of brachycephalic dogs often dismiss the signs of this potentially severe breathing disorder as normal and are prepared to tolerate a high degree of respiratory compromise in their pets before seeking help. It may require a particularly acute attack, such as the dog losing consciousness, for owners to perceive a problem."

Many owners who were surveyed seemed to believe breathing difficulties aren’t really a problem if the dog is short-muzzled. One owner’s comment: “No to breathing problem – other than being a Bulldog.”" From here

Human snoring was dismissed as a social problem for centuries and is now being treated as it is a problem that can be extremely serious. Not sure why dog snoring/loud breathing is any less of a problem. http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/guide/snoring


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## WRayet (May 6, 2014)

Most breeds have hereditary diseases that can be fatal or lower their quality of life. Even generally healthy breeds do. The two breeds I'm looking at both are at risk for vWD, a bleeding disorder where blood clots are hard to form, so if the dog has it, surgery needs to be done very carefully to prevent the dog from bleeding out, and the dog would bruise easily, get nosebleeds, bleeding gums, etc. Of the dogs living at my parents' home, the Shiba Inu came to us with a heart murmur and a mild luxating patella and the Yorkie came to us with liver shunts.The question should not be "Should we stop breeding them". The question should be "What can we do to lower the risks of these diseases". For breeds with hip dysplasia, it consists of only breeding dogs with Excellent or Normal hips. For extremely brachy breeds, it's breeding for longer snouts. I am against breeding specifically for traits that would _heighten_ the risk for disease, like "teacup" dogs, or irresponsible breeding (not health checking the dogs or purposefully breeding dogs that are known to have issues). One _big_ issue I see is that a lot of breeds have health risks that have not been researched enough by scientists, and so breeders can't really identify the genes they need to watch out for. There's really nothing to be done about this but financially support, if possible, any research that's going on for certain diseases and hope a link is found.


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## eldopug (May 16, 2014)

I have a pug and have met hundreds. Some have health problems, some don't. Mine breathes fine, just because he makes noise when he breathes or snores doesn't mean he's in distress. He's one of the happiest dogs I've ever seen and he's always filled with joy. He can walk for miles, run, do all the things a "normal" dog can do. Here's my question: Yes, I'm a aware that the faces of brachycephalic breeds have definitely been exaggerated over the course of years. But if brachycephalic breeds are completely man made, how did the breed come to this? How can a dog get a brachycephalic trait from an offspring if they never existed in the first place? How was any dog or breed made? Dogs have health problems just like humans and any animal or living substance. Health problems happen, I'm sure we've all had a common cold. And some of us have had it worse with real, dangerous diseases. But humans aren't gonna go extinct anytime soon, and that's the same for dogs. I don't see the point of this thread, obviously someone isn't gonna come to terms and say "Hey, your actually right, good point." that's just not how forums work. So what is the point of arguing back and fourth with each other?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

eldopug said:


> I don't see the point of this thread, obviously someone isn't gonna come to terms and say "Hey, your actually right, good point." that's just not how forums work. So what is the point of arguing back and fourth with each other?


Actually, that is how forums work. That's why it's such a great way for people to learn about things they're interested in. With so many people sharing their experiences and knowledge, you're bound to adjust your opinion from time to time. I know I have. 

I dislike dog breeds that have features that cause health problems, like loose floppy wrinkly skin, or extreme brachycephaly, among many other things. Aside from this, I'll openly admit I find a flat face repugnant on a dog. Despite that, if other people enjoy flat faced dogs, fine. I hope they'll do their research and get a healthy dog from a responsible breeder. 

Thing is... And I believe someone on here said it a while ago in another thread... With certain breeds, you might have a better chance of a healthy dog if the dog isn't purebred... 
(of course, a mixed dog is also a crapshoot in terms of health)


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Avie said:


> Aside from this, I'll openly admit I find a flat face repugnant on a dog. Despite that, if other people enjoy flat faced dogs, fine.


I actually happen to think the bulldog face is adorable... But its not healthy. Part of being a responsible owner is knowing that not everything I think is cute can or should exist. Inflicting poor health for the sake of my aesthetics is just not okay.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

CptJack said:


> The whole 'no dog with this trait I don't like should be bred and I'm going to justify it with misinformation'... annoys the CRAP out of me.


What misinformation? I and some of the others who believe extreme brachycephaly is a bad thing have provided studies to back up our claims. In fact, what you are preaching is "I like this dog with this trait and I think it should be bred and I'm going to justify it with misinformation" (whilst anecdotal evidence is valuable to some extend, if some studies proving that brachycephaly does not impact the dogs so negatively it needs to be bred away from have been conducted and you have read them, I would genuinely like to see them)

Really, essentially I think everyone here agrees that the most important thing is the welfare of the dogs. I happen to believe the best way to work towards this welfare is to breed away from all extreme traits, including - but not limited to - brachycephaly, because I have good reasons to. It's just not worth it, in my opinion.

(and before anyone tries to complain about it again, _no one_ here said that all brachys should be exterminated or that they _all _ suffer. Nor do I think anyone here dislikes brachycephalic breeds, at least I don't)


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

(I dislike brachy breeds. I'm more of a mesocephalic and dolichocephalic person. But what does it matter; everyone has a right to their own tastes... but imo Aiw makes a great point)


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Avie said:


> (I dislike brachy breeds. I'm more of a mesocephalic and dolichocephalic person. But what does it matter; everyone has a right to their own tastes... but imo Aiw makes a great point)


I should have phrased that better, I meant that most people who are against breeding for extreme brachycephaly probably wouldn't dislike an individual dog just because it has no nose. I've personally liked the personalities of all the pugs and french bulldogs I've met. I do find them ugly but, as Aiw said, that is beside the point.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Whistlejacket said:


> I should have phrased that better, I meant that most people who are against breeding for extreme brachycephaly probably wouldn't dislike an individual dog just because it has no nose. I've personally liked the personalities of all the pugs and french bulldogs I've met. I do find them ugly but, as Aiw said, that is beside the point.


Oh like that. Well yeah, I don't dislike every individual brachy dog I meet just because it is brachy. In terms of personality they're as friendly or unfriendly as any other dog I meet. And I most certainly don't think all living brachy dogs should be exterminated or something ludicrous like that.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

For those that are saying nobody said these breeds shouldn't exist, it was said. First page, by Adjeyca1.



> Not a popular opinion on this site, but i do not agree with the breeding of english bull dogs, pugs, pekineses, and i would not have an issue if those breeds went extinct


Can't imagine why somebody would be upset by that.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Xeph said:


> For those that are saying nobody said these breeds shouldn't exist, it was said. First page, by Adjeyca1.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't imagine why somebody would be upset by that.


Bingo.

That is exactly why I am upset. That's not breed in more moderation. That's very literally 'I don't think your dog should exist'. Whether you believe my specific dog should be put down or not, it's hurtful.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Bingo.
> 
> That is exactly why I am upset. That's not breed in more moderation. That's very literally 'I don't think your dog should exist'. Whether you believe my specific dog should be put down or not, it's hurtful.


There is an argument to be made that breeds with serious health issues of unknown cause and cure might be unethical to produce at all... But that's just not necessary when we know what the problem in question is and are also able to fix it with relative ease. We don't need to let entire breeds go extinct to deal with the issue of brachycephaly. The problem just seems to be finding the will to do so.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> There is an argument to be made that breeds with serious health issues of unknown cause and cure might be unethical to produce at all..


And who is to make this decision? Which breeds should be eliminated?


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

So Cavalier said:


> And who is to make this decision? Which breeds should be eliminated?


Well, there's no Grand Arbiter of Breeding Ethics (but I'm available for the job!  so I guess each individual has to make their own judgments and behave accordingly.

Not to offend, but one of the breeds I would cite for concern is Cavaliers. If I recall the statistics correctly somewhere around 70% of the breed has SM, and CM is a huge issue as well. Flatcoats and cancer pop to mind too. There are a few others. I won't say categorically they shouldn't be bred (in my opinion) because I don't think I know quite enough about the conditions/treatment and breeding programs effectiveness in eliminating it. I don't see myself owning one in the future though.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Bingo.
> 
> That is exactly why I am upset. That's not breed in more moderation. That's very literally 'I don't think your dog should exist'. Whether you believe my specific dog should be put down or not, it's hurtful.


Hmm. My dogs shouldn't exist. I don't have a problem saying that. Well, I guess I don't know how ethically Moose was bred but since no dogs in his pedigree have OFA listed I'm guessing not especially. The other 2 are supermutts, dumped. Their parents should never have been allowed to reproduce because they were random mutts, not health tested, with no market for the puppies (obviously, due to the whole dumped thing). But I like my dogs. I don't really see how saying that my random supermutts shouldn't exist is any different than saying that a breed shouldn't exist due to health issues. Some breeds are probably beyond saving, which ones those are will become evident eventually.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

A world without mixed breed dogs would be a miserable one indeed... I don't think people should deliberately breed un health tested mutts but at the same time I love mutts and I'd be sad if they disappeared altogether.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Hmm. My dogs shouldn't exist. I don't have a problem saying that. Well, I guess I don't know how ethically Moose was bred but since no dogs in his pedigree have OFA listed I'm guessing not especially. The other 2 are supermutts, dumped. Their parents should never have been allowed to reproduce because they were random mutts, not health tested, with no market for the puppies (obviously, due to the whole dumped thing). But I like my dogs. I don't really see how saying that my random supermutts shouldn't exist is any different than saying that a breed shouldn't exist due to health issues. Some breeds are probably beyond saving, which ones those are will become evident eventually.


Well, Thud and Kylie shouldn't exist and taht doesn't bother me because they're mutts and they'll never be repeated ANYWAY. Who knows what they are, or where they came from, and what set of genes is expressing?

Never being able to have another Boston terrier because someone has a problem with them sticking around even if they're bred toward the more moderate and healthy? That kind of defeats the purpose of me going to a breed in the first place. Since I *can* get those traits I love again, because she's a BREED, with breed traits beyond the shape of her face. The ability to get HER again isn't likely but being able to get a dog with those traits I love (well my husband loves)? Yeah, yeah I can.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Some people argue that making a breed more moderate and healthy would be changing the breed to such an extent that the breed THEY love would be extinct anyway. So. . .well, can't make everybody happy .


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## eldopug (May 16, 2014)

> But that's just not necessary when we know what the problem in question is and are also able to fix it with relative ease.


So is this only limited to brachycephalic breeds? Italian greyhounds, for example; their bones are so fragile they often break from simply jumping off a couch (and this is the case with many toy breeds--papillons, yorkies, chihuahuas, etc. I'd say that it's unethical to breed them as well--in fact, every purebred should no longer be bred! Obviously I'm joking--but do you see my point? I'm sure breeders could give these dogs more bone density.) 



> Part of being a responsible owner is knowing that not everything I think is cute can or should exist.





> _no one_ here said that all brachys should be exterminated or that they _all_ suffer.


That seems to be the implication though.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Papillons might break a leg sailing off the _back_ of a couch, but just jumping up and down from a couch normally... leg fractures would be very rare. They're sturdy little dogs and do just fine in agility and such.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

eldopug said:


> That seems to be the implication though.


No, that's you putting words in the mouths of those who disagree with you.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> Not to offend, but one of the breeds I would cite for concern is Cavaliers. If I recall the statistics correctly somewhere around 70% of the breed has SM, and CM is a huge issue as well.


Then you need to look a little closer at your own breed as SM is also a health concern in chihuahuas.

http://www.chihuahuawardrobe.com/overview-of-syringomyelia-in-chihuahuas/

http://chihuahuaclubofamerica.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=136&Itemid=133

SM is not a problem only in Cavaliers. It is seen in many small breeds.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

So Cavalier said:


> Then you need to look a little closer at your own breed as SM is also a health concern in chihuahuas.


I don't have a chihuahua?

Anyways, again those links actually directly contradict you.



> Although *it's not considered a common condition*[in chihuahuas]... the fact is that any breed can develop SM at any given time in their life. One such small dog breed, the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, is known for their high risk of suffering from SM. In fact, some estimates suggests that over 90% of CKCS' will develop the condition at some point in their life. This is a shocking statistic to say the least,


Your second link lists *one* animal with SM and again emphasizes the size and scope of the problem in CKCS.

I realize the problem isn't confined solely to Cavs, but to my knowledge they are the only breed experiencing even *nearly* the incidence levels.



eldopug said:


> So is this only limited to brachycephalic breeds? Italian greyhounds, for example; their bones are so fragile they often break from simply jumping off a couch (and this is the case with many toy breeds--papillons, yorkies, chihuahuas, etc. I'd say that it's unethical to breed them as well--in fact, every purebred should no longer be bred! Obviously I'm joking--but *do you see my point*? I'm sure breeders could give these dogs more bone density.)


Not really. You jumped from a serious health issue that affects a few breeds to banning all breeding and no health issue to cause it. It doesn't really say much. In terms of tininess though there is a threshold below which dog's bodies don't seem to function. One or two pound animals suffer heart, liver, brain problems and suffer drastically shorter and sicklier lives. Most "tiny teacup" varieties of those breeds are unethical.



> That seems to be the implication though.


Yes, yessss.... I'm the pink cocktail fairy and I'm coming for your beloved fluffy!


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## eldopug (May 16, 2014)

> No, that's you putting words in the mouths of those who disagree with you.


Um, no. That's what she said.

I really don't mind or care if you disagree with breeding brachycephalic dogs, but open discrimination against certain breeds seriously gets on my nerves.

Let's take a look back, shall we?

Page 1, post #5 


> A dog should have a snout, and the nose should not be wedged between a dog's eyes.


Page 1, post #6


> Not a popular opinion on this site, but i do not agree with the breeding of english bull dogs, pugs, pekineses, and i would not have an issue if those breeds went extinct


Page 1, post #17


> Nowhere in nature would brachycephalic breeds endure. This is purely a human invention. Yep, they are cute, yep they sought after. But I personally think it is horrific that we (as humans) have saddled these dogs with living a truly horrific life.



Page 4, post #63


> Aside from this, I'll openly admit I find a flat face repugnant on a dog.



Page 4, post #66


> (I dislike brachy breeds. I'm more of a mesocephalic and dolichocephalic person.


Page 4, post #67


> I do find them ugly



So there you have it. Open discrimination. I'm going to bed.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My personal feeling is, if you don't like it, don't own it. Otherwise, you can butt out.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

eldopug said:


> Um, no. That's what she said.
> 
> I really don't mind or care if you disagree with breeding brachycephalic dogs, but open discrimination against certain breeds seriously gets on my nerves.
> 
> Let's take a look back, shall we?


Literally none of those posts were by me.



Xeph said:


> My personal feeling is, if you don't like it, don't own it. Otherwise, you can butt out.


Which is why you have no opinions on people breeding lower drive GSDs? Or how people train Service Animals and represent them. Or rescues. We've all got opinions on things we aren't directly involved in. It may even be that the reason we aren't involved in them are our opinions. This is a discussion forum. This is what we do.

But you're right that you and I have zero control over what others choose in a dog, and that is how it should be. Usually I'm not fussed about what people choose in a dog, but when it impacts health it does bug me. I'm sure I'm not unique that way around here.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> So there you have it. Open discrimination. I'm going to bed.


Yep. 



> My personal feeling is, if you don't like it, don't own it. Otherwise, you can butt out.


Yep again. I am going to feed my poor diseased dogs before they drop dead.


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## eldopug (May 16, 2014)

> Literally none of those posts were by me.


Wasn't directing it at you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> Literally none of those posts were by me.


The problem here is people are acting confused by people being upset/offended/taking this crap personally. 

But they're not people who said the offensive, upsetting stuff to start with. The people responding to the arguments aren't the ones the arguments are being directed *to*.



Xeph said:


> My personal feeling is, if you don't like it, don't own it. Otherwise, you can butt out.


YEP.



So Cavalier said:


> Yep.
> 
> Yep again. I am going to feed my poor diseased dogs before they drop dead.


I'm going to go inform Bug she can't do things real dogs do and see if it'll convince her to stop head butting me to play tug with her and go to sleep, instead.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> Open discrimination





So Cavalier said:


> Yep.


Discrimination involves prejudice, and I haven't seen any information suggesting the conclusion 'brachycephaly is unhealthy' is inaccurate or irrational. There also hasn't been anyone saying we ought to treat brachy dogs differently than others, except in the arena of breeding... and its not really a controversial opinion that we ought not be producing dogs with a high incidence of health issues.

I guess I just find it odd that most here discourage breeding seemingly healthy dogs without testing, but are okay with breeding dogs of *known* health issues if its in the service of a standard.

Anyways, I'll say again I'm not going after anyone or their dogs personally and I have quite a bit of respect for many members here. I'm not saying their dogs are diseased or suffering and I've got my own dog with chronic health issues. I'm hardly a grim reaper coming for the puppies. It just seems I disagree with some of the breeding policies others support. Not the first time we've seen this disagreement on the forum


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Which is why you have no opinions on people breeding lower drive GSDs?


No, I really don't. That is not what I want in a dog, so I don't support it by purchasing that kind of animal, and I don't breed that kind of animal. I may think they're incorrect, but I'm not telling anybody to change them or not breed them or not buy them.

I'm directly involved with service animals, so I speak up on that. I've been minutely involved in rescue, but I don't speak on that much in general.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> It just seems I disagree with some of the breeding policies others support.


I support those Cavalier breeders who follow the MVD protocol and support those Cavalier breeders who MRI their breeding dogs/bitches. It is my hope that low cost MRI schemes become available to US breeders like those in the UK. I support those breeders who test for eye and patella. I only support those breeders whose mission it is to improve the health of the Cavalier breed. Sorry you disagree with that. I am not willing to discard a wonderful breed of dog. There are researchers in the UK who are working hard to find the genes responsible for SM/CM. I will always have a Cavalier, whether he/she comes from rescue or from a health conscience breeder.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

eldopug said:


> Um, no. That's what she said.
> 
> I really don't mind or care if you disagree with breeding brachycephalic dogs, but open discrimination against certain breeds seriously gets on my nerves.
> 
> ...


3 out of 6 are my words. 

You are ripping my quotes COMPLETELY out of context. 

I stated my tastes, and then said that despite that, if people like and want brachy breeds, THAT'S FINE, and I hope they get a healthy dog. 



Avie said:


> I'll openly admit I find a flat face repugnant on a dog. Despite that, if other people enjoy flat faced dogs, fine. I hope they'll do their research and get a healthy dog from a responsible breeder.


I like mesocephalic and dolichocephalic heads. How is me expressing my personal tastes open discrimination? Everyone has their tastes! Do you have a personal problem with my tastes? 

In your previous post you said you sure saw an implication that some people here think all brachy breeds should be exterminated. NOBODY in this thread among those who disagree with you, have said all brachy breeds should be exterminated. Because you like to quote me, I myself have stated: 



Avie said:


> And I most certainly don't think all living brachy dogs should be exterminated or something ludicrous like that.


You ARE putting words in the mouths of those who disagree with you. Or have a personal problem with. I'm not sure. 

Adjecyca1 said the following. 



Adjecyca1 said:


> Not a popular opinion on this site, but i do not agree with the breeding of english bull dogs, pugs, pekineses, and i would not have an issue if those breeds went extinct


Did all those who are upset by this comment, ever stop to consider that 'going extinct' DOES NOT mean 'exterminating'? That it does not mean everyone with a brachy dog should just kill them now? Paraphrasing my own words, that IS ludicrous. From seeing how this thread evolved, I get this is a (very, very) touchy subject for some people. But you are putting words in other people's mouths. No one is saying your dogs shouldn't be allowed to live. 

What I read in Adjecyca1's phrase 'going extinct', is just that they're stopped being bred. You can also interpret that as stop them from being bred as they are now. Like Willowy said in one of her posts; you could argue that by breeding away from certain extreme traits, the breed as it was will go extinct. Or maybe better put: will evolve and continue on as something new.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Xeph said:


> My personal feeling is, if you don't like it, don't own it. Otherwise, you can butt out.


Seriously... Like button = needed.
Bring back rep! lol


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

BostonBullMama said:


> Seriously... Like button = needed.
> Bring back rep! lol


This kind of reasoning applies very well to trivial things that are just a matter of personal tastes, but not to things that cause genuine harm... those of us who are not okay with breeding for extreme brachycephaly think this way because we care about the dogs, about their welfare, about breeding ethics. It's not a matter of personal taste, it's a matter of doing what's right.


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## eldopug (May 16, 2014)

> 3 out of 6 are my words.


That's your problem. I went through the thread and those posts are what I found to be the most offensive.



> You are ripping my quotes COMPLETELY out of context.


I quoted what you said. Look repugnant up in the dictionary, it means unacceptable.



> those of us who are not okay with breeding for extreme brachycephaly think this way because we care about the dogs, about their welfare, about breeding ethics. It's not a matter of personal taste, it's a matter of doing what's right.


When did any of us say we support breeding extreme brachycephaly? Where did we say we support breeding brachycephalic dogs in general? I've only seen people say they want to help the breed.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

eldopug said:


> I quoted what you said. Look repugnant up in the dictionary, it means unacceptable.


Avie was expressing a personal opinion regarding the looks of brachycephalic dogs... If you find a personal opinion offensive, that's your problem.





eldopug said:


> When did any of us say we support breeding extreme brachycephaly? Where did we say we support breeding brachycephalic dogs in general? I've only seen people say they want to help the breed.


Several people have clearly expressed that they want to keep having brachycephalic dogs, which logically means they want them to keep being bred.


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## eldopug (May 16, 2014)

> Avie was expressing a personal opinion regarding the looks of brachycephalic dogs... If you find a personal opinion offensive, that's your problem.


This thread is about opinions on breeding brachycephalic dogs, not our personal tastes on what we find attractive. Therefore that comment was irrelevant to the purpose of this thread.



> Several people have clearly expressed that they want to keep having brachycephalic dogs, which logically means they want them to keep being bred.


So are you saying you don't want them to be bred anymore? That's a bit much, in my opinion. I love my pug but I want to see more healthy and well bred brachycephalic dogs, hopefully breeders will work on this.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I think having one opinion bout "brachycephalic breeds" is too all encompassing. Not only is each breed different from each other breed (eg Bostons are not Pugs are not English Bulldogs), the features of individual brachycephalic dogs within those breeds will vary wildly. So I couldn't say I oppose breeding brachycephalic breeds as a whole. What I do oppose is rewarding (eg in the show ring) extremes of standards that cause detriment to the dogs. It breaks my heart to see modern Pekingese waddling around a ring wheezing, or it's shocking to see some of the pugs that are winning shows. But I've seen many more moderate pekes and pugs in real life. 

As far as brachycephalics specifically, in general, I do think they experience a lot more wear and tear on their respiratory systems as they age. By definition, ALL of these dogs have brachycephalic syndrome - just for many/most of them it isn't clinically significant on a day to day basis. But it takes a toll over a lifetime, IME a lot of these dogs don't age well. It takes a toll. We routinely offer a simple procedure called an alar wedge resection at the time of spay/neuter for these breeds which widens the nostrils, and anecdotally the difference between dogs who have had that procedure as puppies and those who haven't as they age is like night and day. 

But then there are a lot of breed specific problems that break my heart. More and more as time goes on, it becomes clear to me how unnatural and detrimental to dogs' health overall really specific written standards and closed stud books are.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Whistlejacket said:


> This kind of reasoning applies very well to trivial things that are just a matter of personal tastes, but not to things that cause genuine harm... those of us who are not okay with breeding for extreme brachycephaly think this way because we care about the dogs,.


No one is arguing for breeding extreme brachy.

We are aruging with people who said they would not care if all the brachy breeds went extinct (ETA: Which, as Sass mentioned, covers a whole lot more than pugs, bostons, and bulldogs, with various degrees of extremity and associated issues)

Also, seriously, how many threads have we had here where people ranted about the rudeness of someone else calling a member's dog ugly, much less 'repugnant'? Yes, you can find them ugly. Heck, I find them ugly. It's still rude, especially with the strength of that particular word.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Whistlejacket said:


> This kind of reasoning applies very well to trivial things that are just a matter of personal tastes, but not to things that cause genuine harm... those of us who are not okay with breeding for extreme brachycephaly think this way because we care about the dogs, about their welfare, about breeding ethics. It's not a matter of personal taste, it's a matter of doing what's right.


So 'liking' a comment that I can relate to means I don't care about what's *right* in my dogs health?

Brachycephalic isn't a breed, it's a diagnostic HEALTH condition that can be diagnosed in MANY dogs including dogs that are NOT 'flat faced', such as Pomeranians. This health condition affects any dog whose palette blocks part of the airway. 
My dog, while flat faced, does not have this health condition. If I were choosing to better the bulldog breeds health and work on weaning out brachycephalic dogs in my dogs breed, I would likely use him to sire because his colors are desirable in bulldogs, his tail is straight which is another desired trait in bulldogs, and he breathes just fine like any other dog. 

I am not disagreeing that the health condition is a concerning one. I'm disagreeing that there is ANY reason to let a breed die because of 1 health trait that, if paid special attention to, could be weaned out.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

eldopug said:


> This thread is about opinions on breeding brachycephalic dogs, not our personal tastes on what we find attractive. Therefore that comment was irrelevant to the purpose of this thread.


She still has the right to say that she doesn't like the look of a flat face, just like those who like the look are allowed to say it. It doesn't bring anything to the discussion per se but it's related 





eldopug said:


> So are you saying you don't want them to be bred anymore? That's a bit much, in my opinion. I love my pug but I want to see more healthy and well bred brachycephalic dogs, hopefully breeders will work on this.


No, my personal opinion is that the only way I want to see them bred is if they are bred for less exaggeration. It is, in my opinion, the only good way to breed a pug or a frenchie or an English bulldog.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

CptJack said:


> No one is arguing for breeding extreme brachy.


But some people have said they like the look of these dogs and don't want them to change. Or did I misread something?


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Not that this will make a difference to you guys but I never said I want all brachys to go extinct I specially said I would not care if English bull dogs, pugs and Pekingese went extinct... As in people stopped breeding them.. I know my comment still greatly offends you guys though.. Just clarifying.. Some breeds considered brachy are not all that extreme at all like the renaissance bull dog for example


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Quotes are difficult because I am on my phone, so I will have to make do without. 

First I would like to thank Whistlejacket. On a forum everyone has the right to state their opinion. In fact, every post you make is an expression of your opinion. I'm sorry if people take offense with reading my opinion or the words I use, but I for one can say that I am not deliberately trying to offend anyone. 

Also, the translation I found for the word repugnant (and yeah, I use Google translate sometimes as English is not my native language) is something like 'really ugly' in Dutch. Not 'unacceptable'. Then again, I guess I do find it unacceptable to breed dogs that cannot breathe properly. Which is not to say all brachy breeds don't breathe properly. But quite a few of them do not. 

The reason I said repugnant at all, is because someone said 'if you find them ugly, just admit it and butt out instead of saying they shouldn't be bred just because they're not your kind of dog' or something like that. 

So I said YES I don't like the look of them, but that's not the reason I'm opposed to breeding flat faced dogs. It's because of their health, not personal tastes. That was the point I was trying to make. I feel that DOES bring something to the discussion, as I'm sure I am not the only person feeling this way. I'm fine with people liking brachy dogs, and I hope they'll get a healthy dog and support good breeders. I really hope so.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Whistlejacket said:


> But some people have said they like the look of these dogs and don't want them to change. Or did I misread something?


I DO think some of them need to change. Eng. Bulls, Pugs and Pekingese can and should be improved. I don't think anyone here is for extremes...

For example, I love English Bulldogs but I think this is wrong, and gross.









I dislike exaggerated nose ropes so much.

Many of you may still disagree but I think this is (face wise) a much better example of what I'd like to see. Longer noses, less facial folds (still quite a bit here but it's not too bad)


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

If English Bulldogs began looking like this, I would not complain. ever.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> I don't think anyone here is for extremes...


Exactly! and I would venture to guess that no one here wants to have dogs bred to have health issues. Extreme dogs should not be rewarded in the show ring. Most breed standards haven't changed in years but the actual look of many breeds have. There has been discussion regarding the "modern" Cavalier head vs the older style head and how that relates to SM. Breed clubs need to be stronger and more supportive in emphasizing health issues when breeding dogs. Margaret Carter was ostracized by the UK Cavalier club when she tried to get the UK breeders to recognize SM as an issue in Cavaliers. The arguments in this thread are nothing compared to some I have read in Cavalier forums, especially back a few years. There are still way too few low cost MRI centers in the US for Cavalier breeders to screen their dogs.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Little Wise Owl said:


> If English Bulldogs began looking like this, I would not complain. ever.


Nice and moderate. I agree with you.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Also, seriously, how many threads have we had here where people ranted about the rudeness of someone else calling a member's dog ugly, much less 'repugnant'? Yes, you can find them ugly. Heck, I find them ugly. It's still rude, especially with the strength of that particular word.


It is indeed rude to call someone's dog ugly, but you were the one who asked about personal aesthetics. You claimed these objections all boiled down to thinking the dogs were ugly. Of course responding to such an accusation usually entails sharing your preference. What did you expect? 

I agree it would have been very rude indeed to bring the idea up out of the blue, or unprovoked as a basis for the argument. But when you're asked about it, its not really rude to respond.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> If English Bulldogs began looking like this, I would not complain. ever.


What kind of dog is this? I don't think I've ever seen or come across photos of a dog like this one.

His nose is still too short for my taste but I like his body structure better than a purebred bulldog's (and I love his colour, although that's off-topic)

To give an example of what I think is a reasonable nose lenght, most puggles have muzzles I like - but I have no idea how well the average puggle breathes, I'm just basing my opinion on what I see.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> If English Bulldogs began looking like this, I would not complain. ever.


Looks like my guy.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Whistlejacket said:


> What kind of dog is this? I don't think I've ever seen or come across photos of a dog like this one.
> 
> His nose is still too short for my taste but I like his body structure better than a purebred bulldog's (and I love his colour, although that's off-topic)
> 
> To give an example of what I think is a reasonable nose lenght, most puggles have muzzles I like - but I have no idea how well the average puggle breathes, I'm just basing my opinion on what I see.


That dog is an "Olde English Bulldogge". He's from a breeder in my area. 

Also, Charlie has a nose a lot like a puggle and does not have breathing issues. Her brother's muzzle is shorter and his breathing is just fine too.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> That dog is an "Olde English Bulldogge". He's from a breeder in my area.
> 
> Also, Charlie has a nose a lot like a puggle and does not have breathing issues. Her brother's muzzle is shorter and his breathing is just fine too.












And Bug is a pure-bred but she still has a nose that's not inverted and a muzzle. Heck, once she lost weight she doesn't even snore. And that's LESS muzzle than many Bostons have. She does have pretty crappy nostrils, but they're obviously open.

Then there are boxers, which are also brachy breeds and, again, don't have inverted faces in most cases. The problem here is that targeting 'brachy breeds' is covering a WHOLE lotta ground.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Little Wise Owl said:


> That dog is an "Olde English Bulldogge". He's from a breeder in my area.
> 
> Also, Charlie has a nose a lot like a puggle and does not have breathing issues. Her brother's muzzle is shorter and his breathing is just fine too.


That was going to be my guess but he looked small. Most of the Olde English Bulldogges I see are more toward AB size (70-80lb range, some breeders seem to be going for the 100lb range). I like the more moderate bulldog look personally. I think it makes for a healthier dog. My friend growing up had a Boston Terrier who was big and athletic, just a beautiful dog. I would love to have a Boston like that. I always thought Bostons were supposed to look like that. I was shocked the first time I saw a 15lb smush faced Boston. My whole family had pekis when I was a kid. I loved them all. They were fun dogs. Just sweet little clowns. I do remember there always being a concern that their eyes would pop out (this did happen to two of my uncle's dogs). They were not particularly heat tolerant but they were over all healthy dogs. They were all related (it is a sort of funny story). They did not have the super short faces that are more popular now in the show ring. I would like to see more moderate dogs being shown preference in the ring and that to be the new standard.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Little Wise Owl said:


> That dog is an "Olde English Bulldogge". He's from a breeder in my area.
> 
> Also, Charlie has a nose a lot like a puggle and does not have breathing issues. Her brother's muzzle is shorter and his breathing is just fine too.


 part of the reason I don't mind seeing the English bull dog go extinct is because there are already so many less extreme recreations of the breed


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

That red dog looks great at first glance... but look at how pinched his nostrils are. No opening whatsoever... unacceptable imo.i


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

His nostrils are open, just narrow. Like Charlie's.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Narrow nostrils (stenotic nares) are part of brachycephalic syndrome.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes. I'm aware. 

Nares aside, that dog is still a good example of the direction the breed should go in.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, the way you described them as "just" narrow sounded kind of dismissive of their significance.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

No, his nostrils are literally his only (visual) fault, in my opinion.

On the other hand, here's a variation of the English Bulldog that I think is atrocious


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Little Wise Owl said:


> No, his nostrils are literally his only (visual) fault, in my opinion.


That's not what I meant. I meant that the nostrils are just as significant than the length of the muzzle in terms of the effect on breathing for the dog, and I think it's sort of getting dismissed as a concern.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't think that the nostrils being closed is only a visual fault... unless you think you can breathe well with thin or closed nostrils?


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Kayota said:


> I don't think that the nostrils being closed is only a visual fault... unless you think you can breathe well with thin or closed nostrils?


I think she means to only fault visible to the naked eye.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I personally like the renascence bull dog, more than other bull dog re-creations, and i do not think every olde english or every recreation is 'better off' than the english bull dog, or has better breathing, i have seen olde english bull dogs who looked just as extreme.. but i think some people are taking a step in the right direction


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

For example this victorian bulldogge, which was originally created to be a healthier bull dog, this dog doesn't look any better than most english bull dogs i see









But i guess i just have a different taste in dogs, not everyone has to have my tastes and if people like it they can get one, doesn't mean i have to like it


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

aiw said:


> I think she means to only fault visible to the naked eye.


Yes. This. Jesus. Stenotic nares IS a problem. I'm not dismissing it at all.

I'm going to stop replying to this thread because I clearly can't seem to get my point across.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Yes. This. Jesus. Stenotic nares IS a problem. I'm not dismissing it at all.
> 
> I'm going to stop replying to this thread because I clearly can't seem to get my point across.



There's no need to flounce. There are lurkers who read these threads and I was just trying to clarify your point so no one takes away the message (intentional or unintentional) that stenotic nares are no big deal.


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

This thread disgusts me a little.

It seems that a lot of people aren't understanding why we're getting offended...

When someone states flat faced dogs are *ugly*, it's directed at any dog with a flat face;

CptJack sees it as, you think Bug is ugly.
TheWiseLittleOwl sees it as, you think Charlie is ugly.
BostonBullMama sees it as, you think Toby is ugly.

And so on. Everyone has breeds that they aren't partial too, including myself. Do I think those dogs are ugly? No. I can find something I like about every dog. Remember, we're on a forum for people who love dogs. Flat faced breeds ARE dogs too.

Also, isn't it a bit harsh to not care if a breed went *extinct*? Why should these breeds not exist at all? Why not just wish for a changed feature (longer snout)? We can keep the breed's personality and characteristics. Let them exist.. just better the breed.

Anyway, my opinion on the topic is this:

I don't like the fact that flat faced breeds are getting more extreme. All flat faced breeds originally had much longer muzzles, why not strive to keep it more like the original breed? 

There are a large number of purebred dogs with extremities aside from flat faces. They come with their list of health problems as well, but that doesn't mean they don't have a quality of life.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> All flat faced breeds originally had much longer muzzles, why not strive to keep it more like the original breed?


One thing the Persian cat enthusiasts like to point out is that the breed standard ALWAYS called for a flat face. They just didn't have the means to make it happen back then---no c-sections (or a low survival rate anyway), no nare surgery, no dental surgeries, etc. I don't know if the flat-faced dog breeds have that in their original standard, but that is one argument. . .


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well honestly there are a couple of breeds out there that I think it WOULD be better for the dogs if they went extinct (although none on my list are brachy breeds). There are some breeds that have certain major health problems SO established in their breed without a big enough gene pool to realistically eliminate them, it causes a lot of unnecessary suffering. If breed clubs would allow outcrossing, then maybe, but that's a pipe dream pretty much. If it gets to the point that I can't think about the breed without immediately thinking of a health problem, then maybe it's time for the reset button. 

And honestly, I don't see what's harsh about it. It's not a condemnation of any individual dog. And every time someone talks about a new breed being created there's a chorus of righteously outraged AREN'T THERE ENOUGH BREEDS ALREADY so why doesn't that apply here, too? Aren't there are enough other breeds to choose from?


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I know that Boston Terrier standard called for a short, square muzzle, free of wrinkles (pinched nostrils being a fault). It's always been like that as far as I know. Breeders and judges, for some reason, began favouring flatter faces though.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> There are some breeds that have certain major health problems SO established in their breed without a big enough gene pool to realistically eliminate them, it causes a lot of unnecessary suffering. If breed clubs would allow outcrossing, then maybe, but that's a pipe dream pretty much. If it gets to the point that I can't think about the breed without immediately thinking of a health problem, then maybe it's time for the reset button.


On this forum, I've commented several times before about the Wetterhoun, a Dutch breed with a not-so-bright future. Until recently! The breed club battled for years and FINALLY the kennel club agreed to their plans. In the next few years, 6 breeds will be carefully introduced into the Wetterhoun gene pool: Barbet, Poodle, Portuguese water dog, Labrador, Curly coated retriever and Irish water spaniel. A breakthrough! 

Also, people with look-a-likes can sign their dogs up for the studbook, which will temporarily be opened. Some Wetterhoun breeders are still opposed (ugh) but it's happening!  

I hope enthusiasts/clubs/breeders of other breeds plagued by health problems will come to their senses too and this will happen with other breeds as well. I'm hopeful and positive.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

To be completely honest there are breeds I find ugly. Its a nice idea that as dog lovers we'd love all breeds, but thats usually not how people work. Of course I don't volunteer that information because that would be very rude... But if someone asked me I would tell them diplomatically, and it would find it awfully rude if in return they exploded in righteous outrage.

People always feel differently about _their_ dog or _their_ breed. But how many people have we told their dogs aren't breeding quality? How many people do we directly tell their dogs sires should not have been bred or their lines should never exist? Hundreds. Probably thousands in the history of the forum. People with mixed breeds or illnesses (which aren't in the service of a standard or look) are told point blank that they'll never get another like their dog and it would be unethical to try. So I think this personal outrage is more than a little misplaced. I'm betting everyone would tell me not to breed my epileptic dog even though (like brachycephaly) its a well managed condition that doesn't cause daily issues. Even if he didn't I'm sure I'd be told not to breed as he's a mutt to he *might* have invisible faults. So why are we suddenly okay with known health issues in service of a flat face? I find it very hypocritical. I even find the outrage hypocritical, this is what's said about my dog every day on this forum. He should not breed. He should never have existed in the first place. I will never find one like him again and creating one would be unethical.

Were this solely an issue of taste I would agree entirely. What doesn't harm the dog is fair game to breed, and I have no interest in enforcing my taste on others. But I draw the line where it starts to affect health. I had understood we all did and those rules weren't just for me and my mutt.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

I agree 100% with what Sibe said, it's selfish to breed for things that cause the dog to have major discomfort ....


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

HollowHeaven said:


> I agree.
> I don't want to say they should stop being bred entirely, and there are plenty healthy examples of the breeds involved, but for the most part they tend to be just completely unhealthy.
> We're talking about a variety of dog that almost consistently has severe trouble breathing, highly prone to obesity, has poor elbows, patellas, hearts, can't give natural birth. I sort of feel like if something's structure is so wonky that it simply cannot give natural birth... why is it being bred?


YES.. It is so sad to see so many unhealthy examples of these breeds walking around.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I posted my opinion about this in a thread I made not too long ago. When bred properly, a brachy breed will not suffer any more than another breed. Like CptJack, I will also be ignoring this thread. So many people insist that all brachy dogs are suffering and shouldn't be alive (which I will agree that SOME of them ARE suffering) and it's frustrating as an owner of a Brachy dog. Being guilted when so many other breeds can suffer just as much, if not more... just ugh
> 
> Here's the thread I made if you guys want to know more. I know CptJack posted some pretty sound opinions that I 100% agree with.
> http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/249018-brachycephalic-breeds-feeling-guilty.html


I know you put the thread on ignore, but just replying anyway... It must be hard to feel guilted and persecuted and you probably weren't aware of the significant health issues when you got your brachy breed. However, now it's time to face facts. You own a deformed dog that was bred unethically. There are lots of other dogs with health issues and yes the whole breeding for show is going to hell. All pure dogs are suffering because of these breeders...I personally only agree with breeding for work or performance. But still, don't be in denial about what these breeds are.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

Whistlejacket said:


> I don't see how the fact that some breeds have it worse makes it okay to breed brachycephalic breeds... Making a list of other breeds that have health problems is irrelevant to this discussion (even though I personally don't support breeding CKCS, Dalmatians, BMDs and a plethora of other breeds ridden with diseases either. And also personally, I believe that closed stud-books are an aberration).
> 
> There are in fact studies that prove that brachycephalic breeds are more prone to a variety of ailments caused by/related to their flat faces. This one, for example: http://www.sciencedirect.com.lmu.idm.oclc.org/science/article/pii/S1090023313004280
> 
> ...


Exactly. Providing a list of other breeds issues does not justify breeding brachycephalic dogs.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I own a "deformed dog who was bred unethically." Ohohoho. Fabulous.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I own a "deformed dog who was bred unethically." Ohohoho. Fabulous.


Yea that response there had me seeing red too. A flat face is not a deformity.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm willing to bet that if I trained Charlie for sport and performance that she could keep up and even excel better than most other dogs. She has the drive and energy to do so.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Scientifically speaking it actually is... so are floppy ears, a curly tail, dwarfism, etc etc... all mutations from what nature intended the original dog to be. See the dingo or Carolina dog for an example of nature's dog and you'll see what I mean.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The thing here is? The question phrased isn't 'extreme faced brachy breeds', or 'dogs who suffer issues as a result of their cranial shape'. It's... an all encompassing question put up for debate. That bothers me. It's a question if the BREEDS THEMSELVES should exist. And that's a debatable topic, for sure.
> 
> It's just one I happen to take offense at, because I own and love one of those dogs and I love the breed. Do I think more selective breeding for a more reasonable muzzle would be a good thing? HECK YES! Do I think Boston Terriers, Pugs, Bulldogs, Boxers, and Shih-Tzus should stop being bred? No.


I never meant to insinuate that dogs already living who aren't suffering extremely shouldn't exist...just that I believe we should stop breeding brachycephalic breeds from this point on. Will it happen? No. But it's still my opinion.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Kayota said:


> Scientifically speaking it actually is... so are floppy ears, a curly tail, dwarfism, etc etc... all mutations from what nature intended the original dog to be. See the dingo or Carolina dog for an example of nature's dog and you'll see what I mean.


I have to agree with this. Literally every dog breed is "deformed" from their original, ancestral form.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Yup... I have a pic of wolves hanging on my wall... Roxie as a dog is beautiful but sometimes I compare her to those wolves and think "god you are one hell of an ugly abomination" lol!

I am honestly on the fence here. I think brachy dog breeders should strive for at least 1 inch of muzzle and open nares but I don't think they should disappear entirely. If Roxie's muzzle were any shorter she'd count as brachy...


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Charlie (and many other dogs like her here) are living, breathing examples that not every brachy breed suffers. This thread will not deter me from these dogs. It will only motivate me to support ethical breeders not breeding for extremes and educate others that changes need to be made and health testing is EXTREMELY important.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I agree with you... I am interested in French bulldogs in particular although most other brachy breeds turn me off... but if I went to a rescue when I'm ready for another dog and there was a pug or something that fit me personality wise you better believe I would adopt that dog.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

CandyLeopard said:


> This thread disgusts me a little.
> 
> It seems that a lot of people aren't understanding why we're getting offended...
> 
> ...


 replies in red


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm disturbed by how many breeds are being pushed to extremes. I have noticed quite a few chows recently with the shortened, up turned muzzle. That doesn't seem right at all. This isn't the only area though, over sized dobermans and danes, super tiny chihuahuas and yorkies.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> i kinda wish the puggle was the new pug


In another thread (I can't remember which one), I stated that I liked Puggles and seeing more of them bred with health testing would be great. I was met with "Why would ANYONE want a Puggle" 'cause they're mutts. I feel like Puggles (and mixes like them) could be the key to bettering the Pug breed.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Little Wise Owl said:


> In another thread (I can't remember which one), I stated that I liked Puggles and seeing more of them bred with health testing would be great. I was met with "Why would ANYONE want a Puggle" 'cause they're mutts. I feel like Puggles (and mixes like them) could be the key to bettering the Pug breed.


A few puggles I know have the longer snout and still weeze/snort/cough. Health testing and careful selection of dogs is more important than just breeding longer snouts in my opinion.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I personally like the renascence bull dog, more than other bull dog re-creations, and i do not think every olde english or every recreation is 'better off' than the english bull dog, or has better breathing, i have seen olde english bull dogs who looked just as extreme.. but i think some people are taking a step in the right direction


I think Bulldogs should be bred like this, this dog is way less extreme than any other examples posted.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> In another thread (I can't remember which one), I stated that I liked Puggles and seeing more of them bred with health testing would be great. I was met with "Why would ANYONE want a Puggle" 'cause they're mutts. I feel like Puggles (and mixes like them) could be the key to bettering the Pug breed.


IMO a lot of the Puggle outrage is purebred snobbery. Structurally they're a lot more moderate with the single curl tail and the longer snout. The only hitch is it would seem most breeders aren't health testing and that sucks.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I own a "deformed dog who was bred unethically." Ohohoho. Fabulous.


Maybe I should reword this. Yes all dogs are deformed compared with wolves. However, when a dog is so severely deformed that a large majority of it's breed requires surgery or other medical procedures to give it a comfortable life BECAUSE of the flat face, it's unethical and selfish to keep breeding them. Breed them to have muzzles like labs, shepherds, etc and of course do the necessary health testing and then I agree.. It's okay to breed them if we go entirely away from a short muzzle and narrow nostrils.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> A few puggles I know have the longer snout and still weeze/snort/cough. Health testing and careful selection of dogs is more important than just breeding longer snouts in my opinion.


I completely agree. A longer snout doesn't instantly equal healthier.



Tjrsports said:


> Maybe I should reword this. Yes all dogs are deformed compared with wolves. However, when a dog is so severely deformed that a large majority of it's breed requires surgery or other medical procedures to give it a comfortable life BECAUSE of the flat face, it's unethical and selfish to keep breeding them. Breed them to have muzzles like labs, shepherds, etc and of course do the necessary health testing and then I agree.. It's okay to breed them if we go entirely away from a short muzzle and narrow nostrils.


But not all brachy breeds require surgery or are even in bad health. MY OWN DOG IS PROOF OF THIS. Charlie's mother did not require a C-section and her parents naturally bred (she was from an oops litter). I would NOT like to see these breeds with muzzles like Labs, Shepherds.... Sorry, call me selfish but that's my opinion. I don't think they should be flat against their faces either.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Just adding some pics are various dogs I agree and disagree with:

Here's a French that is just... full of Nope. Wall eyed, severely pinched nostrils, too wide in the shoulders...









Here's a Frenchie mix with a much better face, fewer/lighter wrinkles, open nostrils...









A Pug mix (with more wrinkles than some people prefer) that looks much better than breed standard









Standard Pug I do not like. Disgusting enlarged nose rope


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## eldopug (May 16, 2014)

Sorry, but it sounds like a lot of these people who are completely against brachycephalic breeds have never met a well-bred pug, frenchie, Boston terrier, etc. Most of the pugs I've met have been able to breathe and live life with ease (yes, without struggle). 

They can also run and do agility. And they don't drop dead. My pug is very energetic and is actually pretty fast.

And it's _not_ an individual thing. Many of the pugs I've met have been the same (if not, more) energetic and as healthy as Elvis. If you want I can post a video of him running.

I'm not saying that pugs and other brachycephalic breeds don't have problems, lots of them do (most purebred dogs have at least one inherited health ailment). But the media makes it out as if _every_ brachycephalic breed is suffering, and that's simply untrue.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

eldopug said:


> Sorry, but it sounds like a lot of these people who are completely against brachycephalic breeds have never met a well-bred pug, frenchie, Boston terrier, etc. Most of the pugs I've met have been able to breathe and live life with ease (yes, without struggle).
> 
> They can also run and do agility. And they don't drop dead. My pug is very energetic and is actually pretty fast.
> 
> ...


I actually have had the opportunity to mee
t a "well bred" English bull dog, who had proper health testing, but even the owner acknowledged her dogs breathing problems and was careful not to let her dog get too worked up.. I am not aware if i have met any well bred pugs.. but even "well bred" health tested brachy breeds can have breathing problems


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

eldopug said:


> Sorry, but it sounds like a lot of these people who are completely against brachycephalic breeds have never met a well-bred pug, frenchie, Boston terrier, etc. Most of the pugs I've met have been able to breathe and live life with ease (yes, without struggle).
> 
> They can also run and do agility. And they don't drop dead. My pug is very energetic and is actually pretty fast.
> 
> ...


I've personally seen a English Bulldog do agility,another romp around on a hot day and some nice non snorting energetic Pugs,but I still think they need better breeding.

I've also personally seen Bulldogs that can barely move,struggle in slight heat and can hardly go up a small ramp,I've knew a Pug that needed a $3000 dollar pallet surgery to function, I've seen a Pekinese not be able to even walk around the show ring and pretty much collapse. There is issues with these breeds that are hard to deny,despite there being some good ones.

Consider that about 75% of Pugs have hip dysplasia to some extent,the second highest rated breed to have it behind English Bulldogs. Now you can show me a bunch of Pugs that move fine but it doesn't mean they don't have that issue and something needs to be done about it. It doesn't mean it's justified to breed those extreme features just to look cute and human like. Both those breeds have a multiple of problems that is not just the short face unfortunately,a lighter build and longer legs would help as well.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

I support breeding for health. In my book many brachy dogs have outstanding temperament . . . playful, friendly, ok for apartment living. I think investment in bringing the breed norm back to a healthier and more natural type is a good thing.
But I am sick to tears of watching people kick dead horses. One after another blog has anti-pug this, anti-bulldog that, anti Frenchie the other thing. Throw in the Peke, and a few other breeds while you are at it. 
Non-show (yatta yatta, yes sometimes BYB. Leading, supposedly ethical breeders are often highly show directed and won't sell to breeders unless they are of 'show quality') examples of these breeds sometimes look more like the old types, which were less brachy and more viable out of doors. I wish there were more support available to help health and temperament focussed breeders get established.
And I wish PDE and the lot of them would give equal attention to genetic health problems that don't show up in photographs . . . propensities to allergy, epilepsy, cancer, HD, OCD, cruciate ligament tears, gastric tortion, etc.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

The first dog that died when I started working at a vet clinic was a pug from PDE. He had the huge rope-like nose wrinkle, completely closed nostrils, and his owner kept him fat. He was less than a year old and I still remember trying to get oxygen into his little body after his final seizure. 

I've also seen some super leggy more moderate faced pugs who are as active as an average dog with no health issues. 

Can brachy breeds be improved (looking towards a more moderate muzzle and less extremes)? I know nothing about showing, but is 80% of pug breeders (I'm just using them as an example through my post) started breeding for more moderate dogs would it make a difference or would judges pick one of the 20% since showing seems to favour the extremes? Is there a chance for them to improve?


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

SDRRanger said:


> The first dog that died when I started working at a vet clinic was a pug from PDE. He had the huge rope-like nose wrinkle, completely closed nostrils, and his owner kept him fat. He was less than a year old and I still remember trying to get oxygen into his little body after his final seizure.
> 
> I've also seen some super leggy more moderate faced pugs who are as active as an average dog with no health issues.
> 
> Can brachy breeds be improved (looking towards a more moderate muzzle and less extremes)? I know nothing about showing, but is 80% of pug breeders (I'm just using them as an example through my post) started breeding for more moderate dogs would it make a difference or would judges pick one of the 20% since showing seems to favour the extremes? Is there a chance for them to improve?


I think there's definitely a chance to improve. It's the breed clubs that need to get their heads out of their butts and realize this though.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I think there's definitely a chance to improve. It's the breed clubs that need to get their heads out of their butts and realize this though.


I so agree. I would love to see healthy flat-nosed dogs. Without the breathing troubles.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

BostonBullMama said:


> I so agree. I would love to see healthy flat-nosed dogs. Without the breathing troubles.


So would I.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I don't think anyone WANTS a dog with breathing troubles...


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I don't think anyone WANTS a dog with breathing troubles...


No, I don't think so either...but people (some....possibly most) are willing to overlook it to get the other things they want


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

This was Charlie's sire. My only problem with him was that he was super wall-eyed.


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## Tjrsports (May 11, 2014)

Little Wise Owl said:


> This was Charlie's sire. My only problem with him was that he was super wall-eyed.


 He has a nice muzzle


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

This guy just came into my local Pug rescue:

Moderate muzzle, open nares, nice head. He has crazy dwarfed legs though.


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## Boleyn (Aug 25, 2008)

What a cutie! I've volunteered in Pug rescue for many years, and the vast majority of problems are not breathing, but orthopedic - hips, knees, splayed feet from living on chicken wire. (Most of the ones in this area are from puppy mills)


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I posted this rant in the rant thread but thought it'd be more appropriate here.

These two dogs are from a local breeder. They charge $3000 for their dogs and have blind health guarantees as they do not health test (nothing stated on their website, nor can I find anything on OFFA.org). They're pretty well known around here and claim to be "reputable" yet these are the dogs they breed and produce...


















This guy's pasterns are so weak









Instead of breeding AWAY from these problems, they just simply state in the guarantee that they don't cover the following:
Luxating Patella
Elongated Soft Palate 
Stenotic Nares
Entropian

Breeders like this sicken me. They aren't contributing anything good or healthy into the Bulldog Population and only further their degradation.


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

Holy nose ropes!! Those poor bulldogs 

Of course they don't cover any breathing related issues! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I am big on bulldogs, I love english bulldogs, french bulldogs, american bulldogs - if it's a bulldog it has a piece of my heart - but the bulldogs in the above photo make me sad... I would not buy one of those bulldogs. There's no way. Not even just the cost factor, but the health problems alone just LOOKING at them will also be costly and there would just be no way I could give a bulldog with such exaggerated features the life as a dog it would deserve. I'd be afraid to take a dog like that on a run at the park, the poor thing would probably just keel over!


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

BostonBullMama said:


> I am big on bulldogs, I love english bulldogs, french bulldogs, american bulldogs - if it's a bulldog it has a piece of my heart - but the bulldogs in the above photo make me sad... I would not buy one of those bulldogs. There's no way. Not even just the cost factor, but the health problems alone just LOOKING at them will also be costly and there would just be no way I could give a bulldog with such exaggerated features the life as a dog it would deserve. I'd be afraid to take a dog like that on a run at the park, the poor thing would probably just keel over!


This breeder in particular had one bad "Yelp" review and the person stated that before one year ended up with two cherry eyes (not life threatening but still), ectropian (required surgery) and now has neurological issues and seizures... The breeder acknowledged the review and claimed it was not true...


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I posted this rant in the rant thread but thought it'd be more appropriate here.
> 
> These two dogs are from a local breeder. They charge $3000 for their dogs and have blind health guarantees as they do not health test (nothing stated on their website, nor can I find anything on OFFA.org). They're pretty well known around here and claim to be "reputable" yet these are the dogs they breed and produce...
> 
> ...


Ahhhhh scary looking bulldogs. The first two have almost inverted muzzles. I've never been a huge fan of brachy breeds. I just don't find them attractive.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

You don't breed a breed. You breed individual dogs. The brachy breeds, in general, have gotten more flat-faced over the last 50 or so years. If breed clubs and judges were to stop rewarding exaggerated brachy looks and the wrinkles (or excess coat for pekes) that often go with them, and selecting for individuals with more natural features, the trend could be reversed. 

Unfortunately, the reserve of less extreme type dogs tends to be mostly of 'BYB' origins, whose breeding the fancy considers 'unethical' . .. and it would be hard to get pups registered with the more prestigious registries should you breed from them. I think some registries need to be re-opened. I don't have a lot of respect for the Continental Kennel Club, but maybe they're doing a favor to the breeds where showing has gone to extreme type. Maybe it's good to say, if it looks like a pug (or peke/frenchie/boston/bulldog) and a few people will vouch for it being a pug, we'll register it as a pug.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, just to stir the pot a bit: http://toothvet.ca/PDFfiles/Stop_Brachy.pdf


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Shortened muzzles aside, I cannot understand why anyone would want a dog with a backward-slanting face. I have nothing against boxers (they're often absolutely delightful dogs, if a bit boistrous for me), but why?? Why would anyone possibly breed a dog to have an exaggerated underbite?


















I know its just my personal preference, but I MUCH prefer this, and I can't help but think maybe those ^^^ dogs have some troubles with chewing/eating compared to their more moderate counter-parts. I mean, the second dog has a longer muzzle than some boxers, but it still looks so very wrong to me...


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

The short muzzle is very popular now days and to them Pugs and English bulldogs are not good enough. I swear if given the opportunity and ribbons they would make a quarter of the dogs Brachy in fact I've seen it already start to happen. There is a apeal to the look,perhaps in making them look more human or puppy like or just more macho in appearance.
Although it also turns them more into a fancy breed sense I notice that the people that want working or sporting dogs want one with a longer muzzle that doesn't over heat as easily. So it is done for visual reasons and that is all and even if some of the dogs I so pics of are not the worst,it is still causing more harm than good and still showing the downhill battle. From my memory Rottweilers had full on Lab length muzzles when I was a child and I`m just in my twenties,now it's being difficult to find a breeder like that anymore. I`m almost tempted to get a backyard breeder with a Rottweiler I`m that frustrated.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Foresthund said:


> The short muzzle is very popular now days and to them Pugs and English bulldogs are not good enough. I swear if given the opportunity and ribbons they would make a quarter of the dogs Brachy in fact I've seen it already start to happen. There is a apeal to the look,perhaps in making them look more human or puppy like or just more macho in appearance.
> Although it also turns them more into a fancy breed sense I notice that the people that want working or sporting dogs want one with a longer muzzle that doesn't over heat as easily. So it is done for visual reasons and that is all and even if some of the dogs I so pics of are not the worst,it is still causing more harm than good and still showing the downhill battle. From my memory Rottweilers had full on Lab length muzzles when I was a child and I`m just in my twenties,now it's being difficult to find a breeder like that anymore. I`m almost tempted to get a backyard breeder with a Rottweiler I`m that frustrated.


I'm inclined to make snide remarks about show breeders and their supposedly 'ethical' breeding (generally accompanied by saying nasty things about backyarders). The fact that so many breeds have deteriorated -- in the sense of moving away from natural confirmation and good temperament -- at the hands of competitors working to 'improve' their breeds needs to be kept in mind. If we didn't have BYB's, there would be no one preserving the old-type pugs and pekes. If we leave it to the show world, who knows, in another 40 years, Rottis may fully brachycephalic.

My mother was born in 1923 and grew up with cockers (as perky little hunting dogs). . . and loved the Lassie stories (when collies were herding dogs). She mourned both cockers and rough collies as breeds ruined by show-ring selection. In those days, selection for full coat, and in collies, narrow heads, seemed to be the factors causing damage. Shortening muzzles seems to have gotten more fashionable after WWII.

I don't know what is required for 'better' and 'ethical' breeders to seriously question what improves a breed, and what makes it less fit to live a healthy life as a modern family dog. But if these trends don't turn around and there isn't a move among 'ethical' breeders to restore the healthier confirmation in dogs of old, I will be cheering as the AKC continues its decline in membership and revenues.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm getting real sick and tired of people saying 'conformation/show breeders do-' as if they're a hive mind and there's no difference at all as to WHAT they're breeding for, how they're breeding it. Also getting real sick and tired of people acting like only extreme dogs earn titles.

It's almost enough to make me laugh. If I wasn't already so busy rolling my eyes at the sheer IGNORANCE of it, anyway.

I got news, folks. The public and what they spend their money on determines the success of any given 'fashion', and that includes selective breeding of dogs. "Show" breeders are as individual as anybody else. Showing conformation doesn't mean not working and working doesn't mean not earning titles. There are more dogs titling than showing up at the big shows on TV. Yeah, there are trends. If you don't like them, I promise you: you can find somebody breeding what you DO, and in 9 out of 10 breeds you can find a breeder doing it who also titles their dog in conformation.

I can find cocker breeders who are using their dogs in the field as well as the show ring and I can sure as HECK find collies who herd!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I'm getting real sick and tired of people saying 'conformation/show breeders do-' as if they're a hive mind and there's no difference at all as to WHAT they're breeding for, how they're breeding it. Also getting real sick and tired of people acting like only extreme dogs earn titles.
> 
> It's almost enough to make me laugh. If I wasn't already so busy rolling my eyes at the sheer IGNORANCE of it, anyway.
> 
> ...


:clap2: All I have to say.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I agree with CptJack.

Also, those more modest "BYB" Pugs, Bulldogs, etc. Not healthier in my experience. Not one bit.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I agree with CptJack.
> 
> Also, those more modest "BYB" Pugs, Bulldogs, etc. Not healthier in my experience. Not one bit.


Agreed, completely.

Bug is a BYB bred dog. She's deaf, has a heart murmur, two dislocating knees, is allergic to the world AND has no nose. Meanwhile my show-bred Rat Terrier is exactly 3 months younger than Bug and is 900% healthier and more sound. Bug does okay, don't get me wrong and I know they're different breeds, but.... Jack and Frost are the most physically sound dogs I've EVER had. EVER. Of any breed, or mix. I would never have said the others were unsound, but the difference is kinda astounding.

This is not a zero sum game. It's not one or the other. Sometimes it's BOTH and sometimes it's NEITHER.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yep. I go to most of the shows around here and I am not seeing flat-faced rotties or poms, boxers with their bottom lip pushed out into an exaggerated pout, Frenchies with rolls of skin instead of a snout, or German Shepherds that walk on their hocks, despite what opponents of "show breeders" would have you believe. I'm sure there are people breeding those extreme dogs -- I have seen the photos. But those extreme dogs are not what every breeder is moving toward, or what every judge is putting up, or what every buyer is after. 

And when you go to a show and just wander around and look at the dogs, you can see how many of them look amazing and structurally sound -- just off the top of my head, at the last show I saw at least one gorgeous example of each: Australian shepherd, Doberman, miniature pinscher, papillon, shiba inu, poodle, English setter, yorkie, coton, griffon, toy Manchester, pointer, viszla, wolfhound, beagle, samoyed, cairn, westie, Norwegian elkhound, wire fox terrier, sheltie, Dutch sheepdog... I could go on and on. None of these dogs were "extreme," but of course we rarely hear about these breeds and these breeders, because all the detractors want to talk about are the few breeds and breeders heading in a bad direction. They want to make it sound like all "show breeders" are bad, and they want to crow about how AKC registration is down, like that's a good thing. 

"Show breeders" are the people behind most of the breed-specific health tests. "Show breeders" are the ones submitting their dogs to OFA and CHIC. "Show breeders" are the reason we know so much about coat color genetics and how they can affect health. "Show breeders" are doing a large chunk of breed-specific rescue. "Show breeders" are not the enemy.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I'm getting real sick and tired of people saying 'conformation/show breeders do-' as if they're a hive mind and there's no difference at all as to WHAT they're breeding for, how they're breeding it. Also getting real sick and tired of people acting like only extreme dogs earn titles.
> 
> It's almost enough to make me laugh. If I wasn't already so busy rolling my eyes at the sheer IGNORANCE of it, anyway.
> 
> ...


Sure, you _can find_ cockers who appear in both ring and field, but you have to look pretty hard. They are few and far between, as are rough collies who herd. I sure wouldn't want to get the burrs out of a show quality rough collie (or an Afghan, or a goldie, or a Lagotto) who has had spent a day running in the field. That you can find somebody proves nothing about the central tendency in the breed. 

What I can't understand is why, if some breeders are earnest about staying true to the origins of the breed in terms of temperament and conformation, why they tolerate show rings that award BOB's to dogs that are clearly dysfunctional, and why they don't stand up for revisions of breed standards that limit the extent to which flattening of the face is desirable and heavily penalize traits such as steniotic nares, excess wrinkling, and eyes that are in danger of popping out of their sockets. (In my boarding kennel days, I tended a show-bred pug who had this problem). Or why they have tolerated extremely high rates of inbreeding, such as found in the Wycliffe-descended standard poodles. And it galls me that many (most?) breeders rank pups as 'show' or 'pet' quality by the time they are 8 weeks old. The 'show' quality pups are invariably those who show the strongest and most exaggerated breed features.

I'm sick and tired of people berating people who don't show or compete in agility, etc, damning them as BYB's, and not appreciating people who aim for a good healthy dog before they aim for a Champion. I used to breed Labradors. I did health screening, I screened puppy buyers, I did temperament testing, etc., but the show scene turned me off, and I stopped showing. The backstabbers in the ring often denounced me as a BYB because I didn't show. 

Sure, there are many non-competition breeders without formal kennels who don't give a toss. But I've known show breeders to use a Gr Ch whose unofficial call name, due to his obnoxious temperament, was Archy A##hole. His pups WERE better than average when it came to show conformation, but they tended not to live up to the Lab's wonderful reputation for easy going, biddable temperament. 

The gradual, long term trend toward exaggeration of brachy features may be due to the instinctive appeal that 'baby face' dogs have for unwitting humans. (Google ' S.J Gould evolution of Mickey Mouse' for a lovely treatment of this). If the show community showed any sign of fighting that trend to exaggeration, I'd be respectful. But look at winning pugs, pekes, and bulldogs.. . and the AKC's refusal to follow the UK KC's revision of standards (not to mention widespread refusal of judges to go along with revisions of standards made for health reasons).


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> "Show breeders" are not the enemy.


I have to agree. There are bad apples in every bunch, but that doesn't mean ALL the apples are rotten. But you also can't ignore how some breeds have been fundamentally altered by the show world. I won't go on about how its all bad - I'm sure that for every change I would view as being negative in one breed, there may be a positive one in another breed - but I also don't think anyone should ignore the bad things that are happening just because they don't happen to every breed or every dog within a breed. The fact of the matter is a major portion of show breeding is for aesthetics, and where there's aesthetics there will be people breeding towards a fashionable trend.

I'll admit, I've only been to one dog show (I'd like to go to more, but my primary reason for going to dog shows is to meet breeds I am interested in and don't get to meet otherwise, and the shows around here are very mundane). And I spent most of the show watching the shelties - there were 22 of them (apparently breeding shelties is popular around here). I was absolutely astounded by the variation. I mean, they were all readily identifiable as shelties, but what really got me was the variation in head shape and coat. Some of the shelties looked like itty bitty rough collies with long, narrow muzzles and heads, and then other shelties had a head more reminiscent of the spitz-breeds from which they were built, with moderate heads and tapered muzzles. And the coats.... some had coats more like a border collie, not at all fluffy, laying nearly flat against the body without any loft or fluffiness and some shelties had so much hair and rough that it looked like they had no neck at all, just a head stuck onto an oblong ball of fluff.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> Sure, you can find cockers who appear in both ring and field, but you have to look pretty hard. They are few and far between, as are rough collies who herd. I sure wouldn't want to get the burrs out of a show quality rough collie (or an Afghan, or a goldie, or a Lagotto) who has had spent a day running in the field. That you can find somebody proves nothing about the central tendency in the breed.
> 
> What I can't understand is why, if some breeders are earnest about staying true to the origins of the breed in terms of temperament and conformation, why they tolerate show rings that award BOB's to dogs that are clearly dysfunctional, and why they don't stand up for revisions of breed standards that limit the extent to which flattening of the face is desirable and heavily penalize traits such as steniotic nares, excess wrinkling, and eyes that are in danger of popping out of their sockets. (In my boarding kennel days, I tended a show-bred pug who had this problem). Or why they have tolerated extremely high rates of inbreeding, such as found in the Wycliffe-descended standard poodles. And it galls me that many (most?) breeders rank pups as 'show' or 'pet' quality by the time they are 8 weeks old. The 'show' quality pups are invariably those who show the strongest and most exaggerated breed features.
> 
> ...


I am with you on this one. Add to it popular sire.



> And when you go to a show and just wander around and look at the dogs, you can see how many of them look amazing and structurally sound -- just off the top of my head, at the last show I saw at least one gorgeous example of each: Australian shepherd, Doberman, miniature pinscher, papillon, shiba inu, poodle, English setter, yorkie, coton, griffon, toy Manchester, pointer, viszla, wolfhound, beagle, samoyed, cairn, westie, Norwegian elkhound, wire fox terrier, sheltie, Dutch sheepdog... I could go on and on. None of these dogs were "extreme," but of course we rarely hear about these breeds and these breeders, because all the detractors want to talk about are the few breeds and breeders heading in a bad direction. They want to make it sound like all "show breeders" are bad, and they want to crow about how AKC registration is down, like that's a good thing.


Not all genetic problems are outwardly visible.



> "Show breeders" are the people behind most of the breed-specific health tests. "Show breeders" are the ones submitting their dogs to OFA and CHIC. "Show breeders" are the reason we know so much about coat color genetics and how they can affect health. "Show breeders" are doing a large chunk of breed-specific rescue. "Show breeders" are not the enemy.


Many show breeders are working towards the betterment of their breed and those are the ones we need to support. Not all do however.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I am not claiming that showing in conformation means the dog IS healthy. I am saying that showing in conformation doesn't mean the dog ISN'T, and grouping all 'show breeders' under one umbrella and blaming for the ruination of breeds makes about as much sense as peeing facing into a stiff breeze. 

If someone want to breed dogs without health testing or proving your dog in any venue at all, either conformation or working, they're going to do it. I won't be giving those people my money. As far as I'm concerned if I want a 'healthy family pet' with NOTHING to back that up (eg: health testing) I can get it off craigslist. If I want a performance dog (sport, real work, therapy, assistance, whatever), I want the odds stacked in my favor by buying dogs from lines of dogs who *actually do it* - AND I want as much soundness assured as possible and that means somebody who health tests.

And YES, I will screech until the cows come home that somebody breeding dogs WITHOUT HEALTH TESTING is doing a disservice to their breeds and their dogs in general.

Not somebody who doesn't conformation show. Not somebody who breeds for work or sport or even really good family pets, but somebody who breeds WITHOUT HEALTH TESTING *or* any outward judgement of their breeding stock (ability to do performance events, actively work in the field or, yeah, show and against breed standard)? NOPE. No way. I will sit here and call those people ignorant until I'm blue in the face because that is exactly what they are. I am certainly not going to support their breeding practices with my money. Somebody 'breeding healthy pets' FOR THAT PURPOSE and with health and temperament testing, go forth and be merry. Somebody who isn't? Well, it seems a bit hypocritical to defend them and come down on show breeders as 'responsible for the ruination of breeds' and breeding 'unhealthy animals'. 

As has been pointed out, not all health problems are outwardly visible. Hence the health testing and importance of it.

That said: We all vote with our money. What we want, we pay for and pay to stay in business. You can do whatever you want with your money. I will do what I want with mine.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

sandgrubber said:


> I'm sick and tired of people berating people who don't show or compete in agility, etc, damning them as BYB's, and not appreciating people who aim for a good healthy dog before they aim for a Champion. I used to breed Labradors. I did health screening, I screened puppy buyers, I did temperament testing, etc., but the show scene turned me off, and I stopped showing. The backstabbers in the ring often denounced me as a BYB because I didn't show.


Many people here on DF have no problem with a breeder who doesn't show as long as they do everything else. Heck, a lot of us don't even care if you're breeding mixes as long as you're health testing and such. Nobody HERE damned those people "BYB". The people who aren't testing and don't give a crap where the puppies go are "BYBs". I have no problem with pet only breeders as long as they are testing etc. Yeah, those people that talked badly about you -- forget them. I personally DO prefer a breeder that does SOME kind of activity, but that's because I want to do sports and such.

What you're missing is the real "BYBs" don't care about temperament (even if the dogs are "nice"), don't care about health(no health testing) and don't care where the puppies end up (no contracts, little screening, pay and go).

Also, just because those exaggerated dogs are winning, doesn't mean some breeders aren't fighting it. It might not be loudly, but I'm sure they are out there. Also, it isn't going to change if more breeders aren't participating, breeding and changing things.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I've known good conformation breeders that do breed multi functional dogs but most do not seem to go that way with my breeds. I like going to shows but it does get frustrating to see the types of dogs that often win them.

Now both byb and show dogs are risky. Raggy is BYB I believe and so far for his first 6 years is as healthy and functional as they get so perhaps I was lucky. But is a show dog with worse conformation with the limited health testing they have better then a byb with a moderate conformation,less inbreeding but no health testing? I feel with some breeds both are a equal risk in some ways and I know health testing is good thing and I don't want to support BYB. Also I know plenty of BYB breed for poor conformation in overly giant dogs. Usually the show ones also are mild mannered but often to a fault where the dogs,even more aloof breeds are couch potatoes that love everyone. Although less so with small or herding breeds. It's not even just showing toss a sleeve in front of your 120lb heavily wrinkled Rott or roach backed GSD and call it a working dog,never show any videos or titles on the site and now with your conformation and working dogs your the best breeder in state. I`m actually thinking of a breeder in my state that is considered the best around,despite many health complaints of dogs getting hip dysplasia as pups.
With Rotts I feel like I might have to give up on the breed,even the ones from reputable breeders are known to have a lot of health problems,low energy/endurance as well as short lives and I just can't travel for some $4000 dog to fit my needs. I want to even cry now because of it,I`m sick of this.

The dogs I see at shows and I often go to 2 a year,I have seen a good amount of heavily wrinkled mastiff type Rottweilers,floppy legged GSD's and no nosed Frenchies. The huge forehead small muzzled Rotts is something I see more when trying to find breeders. I also like to judge dogs by the males so having moderate and athletic females and down and out males does not fly in my book. It's also just an excuse to have as exaggerated males as possible while still looking like you breed healthy and fit dogs.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

One thing I found interesting at the show I was recently at was that the "all-american" (lol) dogs were cleaning up at the performance events. I imagine a big part of that is that there's simply a deluge of husky mixes up here and not a lot of purebred dog breeders, so there are just a proportionately large amount of mixed breed dogs locally, and huskies, if you can make them listen, are ninja dogs. But it was interesting to me.


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## CrystalGSD (Jun 27, 2014)

sandgrubber said:


> Sure, you _can find_ cockers who appear in both ring and field, but you have to look pretty hard. They are few and far between, as are rough collies who herd. I sure wouldn't want to get the burrs out of a show quality rough collie (or an Afghan, or a goldie, or a Lagotto) who has had spent a day running in the field. That you can find somebody proves nothing about the central tendency in the breed.
> 
> What I can't understand is why, if some breeders are earnest about staying true to the origins of the breed in terms of temperament and conformation, why they tolerate show rings that award BOB's to dogs that are clearly dysfunctional, and why they don't stand up for revisions of breed standards that limit the extent to which flattening of the face is desirable and heavily penalize traits such as steniotic nares, excess wrinkling, and eyes that are in danger of popping out of their sockets. (In my boarding kennel days, I tended a show-bred pug who had this problem). Or why they have tolerated extremely high rates of inbreeding, such as found in the Wycliffe-descended standard poodles. And it galls me that many (most?) breeders rank pups as 'show' or 'pet' quality by the time they are 8 weeks old. The 'show' quality pups are invariably those who show the strongest and most exaggerated breed features.
> 
> ...


Basically this.


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