# CORN, CHICKEN BYPRODUCT MEAL, PORK FAT as its first 3 ingredients



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Ok guys so do the work for me. 
Why is this bad. 
Where are the scientific studies that the Flamers are telling me prove that those ingredients in that food are fine for dogs, since "Scientists" developed them.

Note that Ingredients #4 and #5 are "Brewers rice" (am guessing that is a waste product not even just whole rice) and Soybean meal.

And yes its Science Diet.
$50 for a 17 lb bag, ( yup on par with Orijin).....

So how can we prove that is any worse or better ?......


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I thinks its more a case of ingredients vs nutrients. the only thing taken into consideration with these foods is nutrients, they are processed to make them digestible and combined they meet the requirements for life of that species. this is the case for all animal feeds, they are all about the nutrients required for whatever the food is meant for, ingredients those nutrients come from are not a concern. the problem with that approach is that science isn't perfect, and the scientific nutrient thing has screwed up before(ie baby formula), many animals do just fine and even very well on nutrients alone, but there is always the chance that something is missing. if however the nutrients come from what the animal would naturally eat, and both nutrients AND ingredients are included in the plan,then unknown deficiency's are less likely to occur. 

as for the cost of science diet for the cheap ingredients? maybe it pays for all the research it takes to render all that junk into nutrients


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL. I think those ingredients are generally fine to include in a diet for most dogs, because they provide macro and micro nutrients and are digestible. And because I've seen large numbers of dogs thrive on them. Not because "scientists" (in quotes lol) developed them. 

The cost of any product is mostly determined simply by what people will pay for it, not what its ingredients necessarily cost. That's why the same beer that costs $9 for a six-pack at the liquor store costs $9 for a single at the ballpark.

At the end of the day, for anyone to prove anything about nutrition in dogs is going to take more money and time than anyone with any particular opinion cares to spend. To be honest, I don't actually think anyone WANTS to prove which diet is best, nor do I think there even IS such a thing as a "best" diet for a generalist, highly adaptable species - by definition they can utilize a wide variety of food sources.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> LOL. I think those ingredients are generally fine to include in a diet for most dogs, because they provide macro and micro nutrients and are digestible. And because I've seen large numbers of dogs thrive on them. Not because "scientists" (in quotes lol) developed them.
> 
> The cost of any product is mostly determined simply by what people will pay for it, not what its ingredients necessarily cost. That's why the same beer that costs $9 for a six-pack at the liquor store costs $9 for a single at the ballpark.
> 
> At the end of the day, for anyone to prove anything about nutrition in dogs is going to take more money and time than anyone with any particular opinion cares to spend. To be honest, I don't actually think anyone WANTS to prove which diet is best, nor do I think there even IS such a thing as a "best" diet for a generalist, highly adaptable species - by definition they can utilize a wide variety of food sources.


 My point is that it is TWICE as expensive as my regular kibble (which has none of those things, and that my dogs have done very very well on -- for 19 years).... and that it IS touted as premium, special, scientifically formulated to be "better"....
and that my frail, elder dog (who is blind, has tumors, and a clotting disorder-- at the best of times these are her baseline) WAS placed on this food....

My young dogs? No sweat, I have mixed the bag into their regular kibble container (the berner will eat rocks, he will like it fine) and it will be consumed and not go to waste....
Just for my precious senior, it doesnt take alot to rock her Boat and I wouldnt want this kibble to be the one thing that does....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't know what the cost of it has to do with anything. What *I* think something _should_ cost very rarely has anything to do with how much it DOES cost. Whether it's dog food or shoes or milk or whatever.

So if you think it's too expensive and you don't want to feed it, then... don't feed it?


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Ok guys so do the work for me.
> Why is this bad.
> Where are the scientific studies that the Flamers are telling me prove that those ingredients in that food are fine for dogs, since "Scientists" developed them.
> 
> ...


Not about Science Diet in particular but I fed my last dog Nutro, Authority, Science Diet and Purina - all considered crap food by more knowledgeable people during various times in her life; she lived to be about 12 YO. Would she have lived longer if fed another, better food - who knows. I think some of the claims in both camps are real and some are what marketing wants you to believe. Some "experts" say that by-products are OK, I've read that dogs can absorb proteins from grains as long as the grain is finely ground and from my limited experience Maggie did great on all those foods I fed her - other than colitis when eating beef products she was never ill in her life up until the day she died. 

Now look at grain free foods or high protein foods which are all the rage - does every dog need to be fed that, No. Can every dog handle high protein - No. Does every dog need to be off of grains - No. Look at some of the protein sources for grain free -peas, pea protein and various other plant protein. Is 28% protein which comes from 15% plant protein better for a dog than 21% protein that comes from meat - I don't know, but some people are buying into grain free. For Zoey, I started with Orijen, switched to Pinnacle and now she's eating 4 Health grain inclusive and seems to be doing fine. I never heard of the foods that I feed Zoey until coming onto this forum. I am hoping that by not feeding my dog Ol' Roy that I'm giving her better quality food but the AAFCO guidelines are there for people to pick nutritious foods for their animals, if AAFCO is wrong, 99.9% of the people wouldn't know they are. I think it comes down to what the individual believes is good and can afford.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Having the resources to try other food helps a lot. I thought Max and Sassy were as good as they could be on kibble but they were a lot better on fresh food. I tried all the kibbles I could with Sassy but she always had the same issues. That was before high protein grain free kibble came out. Only conclusion I ever came to was that Sassy didn't do well on corn, huge sweet smelling poop and a fat happy dog was the result of corny food. So many of the common doggy issues like bad breath, shedding, gooey eyes, smelly coat, dirty teeth, anal sac problems, poor digestion and many more can be changed if the right food is found but unless the dog owner starts searching he/she will just assume that is the dog not the food. I know I did.

Sassy was healthy up to 13.5 years old but her coat and breath stunk and her anal sacs needed emptying monthly and her coat shed heavily much of the year. Just dog stuff I thought. Turned out once her anal sacs stopped causing trouble she stopped stinking and once she was better hydrated and I got that wonderful furminator she stopped the excessive shedding. Whether high protein grain free would have worked better than home cooked chicken and rice I will never know.

If you cannot afford a big bag of that awesome sounding kibble then try adding in a bit of fresh food when you can. A vet discovered that dogs fed bottom of the line kibbles looked as good as dogs on higher quality sounding kibbles if some appropriate fresh food was also fed. Science Diet isn't bottom of the line though, the ingredients are cleaner than 'bone and meat meal' even if your particular dog doesn't do well on corn.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm not a fan of science diet because of Manna doing crap on it. (poops were bad, fur was bad, itchy and rash) but that might be an allergy so I won't completely cross it out. 

My mothers dog after 6 years doing ok on it was switched to Acana (mostly cause she wanted our dogs to be on the same thing for some reason) and this 6 year old now acts like a 1 year old and her seasonal allergies have stopped. Weird as H*ll I know but we have no other explanation. 

My cat is has celiacs disease and almost died while on the feline equivalent and is doing awesome on a high end grain free though she does on occasion steal the dog food.

My grandmothers dog was on ol roy for 13 years and never slowed down from age...plently of injury though as this dog was reckless.

since dogs did evolve with us humans it wouldn't be such a stretch to say they developed a system that is better at handling plant materials than their wolf counter parts or that different breeds since they developed in different parts of the world might be able to handle or even thrive on things that other breeds cannot, but I feel more comfortable staying away from the grains because of personal experiences. 

And who knows, it might all be individual dog digestive issues...I can't digest lettuce but that doesn't mean all humans can't.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Theres is no need for "science" behind this... Like I said on the other thread. A dog is a carnivore. Point blank look at their teeth. They would not have big canine teeth if they werent a carnivore. If they were made for eating grains they would have flat teeth like a cow and last time I checked their teeth werent like that. Its common sense it doesnt need to be scientifically proven that a meat diet is better for a dog. All the science you need is all the things we know about a CARNIVORE... I dont understand why people dont get that. Do lions in zoos eat grains? NO. Would they thrive on grains? NO obviously not. People think because a dog is domesticated its like a human where we can eat everything and still be the best we are... Not the case. If that was true they wouldnt have the teeth they do. Humans cant even digest corn do you think a carnivore is going to digest it or get anything from it? No. The high protein isnt something a dog "cant handle" either. They were evolved to consume MEAT PROTEIN.... People think their dog cant handle the protein because they think it makes them sick. Well duh when you are switching a dog from a food FULL of fillers and carbs that isnt natural then heck yea they are going to be sick. The fillers and carbs are addicting. Its like a dog going through "detox" basically. They go through a period of time where yes they will have loose stools runny eyes etc. Depending on the dog it may take two weeks or more before they are completely normal again. I know when my shelter dog got switched off science diet it took him almost two weeks until he was normal and he was such better off afterwards. Its like a person being addicted to mcdonalds eating it everyday and then trying to give them a salad!! People also dont understand SO many problems can be prevented with a good diet. You say you've seen dogs do "fine" on science diet but lets ask how did they pass?? More than likely kidney failure? diabetes? Gastrointestinal issues?? What do you all think contributes to that?? CHEAPLY MADE CARB HEAVY FOOD FULL OF FILLERS... Your dog might of did "fine" but I guarantee they didnt thrive. What gives diabetes to a person if its not in their immediate family history??!! CARBS.. MCDONALDS.... ETC... Why is it that thousands of times a dog has been diagnosed with diabetes put on one of those bogus prescription diets and then later their owner gets a hint trys a proper diet and then the dog no longer even needs insulin?? THATS PROOF in itself! What do you think the chicken n rice, lamb n rice, etc comes from?? Thats not for the health of the dog... its very good marketing targeting OUR appeal. Not a dogs. We think oh rice is healthy for us so it must be good for my dog too... Well sorry not really. Lemme go even farther and say this... We invented kibble for OUR convenience. Not for the health of a dog. And companies like Science diet have takin that convenience even farther by using cheap ingredients to save money but barely sustain the dog. Anyone who says this dog or that dog did fine on Science Diet clearly has NOT tried a raw diet or high quality canned diet on their own dog..... Why do you think Science Diet just put out their new "Ideal Balance" line of foods?? BECAUSE people are getting the clue and realizing Science Diet isnt the best and never was. So now Science Diet is having to make real food now thats not junk otherwise they wouldnt have just made "Ideal Balance"... I currently dont have a dog but I'll say this... When I started feeding my cats partial raw partial canned diet the difference I started to see in their overall demeanor I couldnt even begin to describe. Their energy sky rocketed, their weight came off and has remained perfect, they dont have dandruff, and their coat is the softest Ive ever felt... and I feel good because I know Im giving them the best shot at the longest possible life. Thats my two cents.... The proof is behind the results and the "science" is behind what a CARNIVORE is...


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## PomEric (May 18, 2013)

l agree with everything Zilla just said.
l belong to a number of raw feeding forums (we may have met, Zilla  and the most common statement heard is that they thought their cat/dog was in perfect health until starting a raw diet. Then they witness what perfect health actually looks like.
l'm a recent convert. l started with my 3 cats last year and saw very positive results.
My little dog was on a crappy kibble diet for 9 years and seemed outwardly fine. l wouldn't have called him unhealthy at all. He was just at the vet where l found out his liver, kidney and thyroid values are out of whack, and he has 15 bladder stones! He is now getting the same raw diet as the cats and will undergo surgery to remove the stones. l'm not putting him on any prescription foods.

Personal experience aside, sometimes even the proponents of a raw or species-appropriate diet will commend Hill's for all their studies. Do we have access to these studies? l would like to see why some of the more dubious ingredients are in there and if there is science behind it, that in theory anyway, corn (for eg.) would be beneficial to a cat/dog. Their "science" is often mentioned but l've never seen what it shows. ls there public access where l can see any of their studies?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I used to have a lot of studies bookmarked but cannot find many in there now.

Things like these used to be posted as proof that dogs don't need good quality foods where it is actually the opposite, those foods are trying to prove they will nourish the animals sufficiently.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2141S.full#top
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc1250243/

Still my favorite is this short study by IAMS showing dogs do better on chicken protein plus more is better. And does IAMS follow their own study???? 
http://www.iams.com/pet-health/dog-article/importance-of-animal-based-proteins-in-dog-foods
25% protein in mini chunks.
http://www.iams.com/dog-food/iams-proactive-health-adult-minichunks

My favorite link to an article where a vet figured out the reason some dogs on poor quality kibble did well was because they were also fed scraps is gone but wayback machine to the rescue. Sort of scary how just a little good stuff changes things. Not scientific or anything though.
http://web.archive.org/web/20121021150658/http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/nutritioncomments.html


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Why do people insist that corn is not digestible even by people? Corn was a staple of many cultures for centuries, it was one of "the three sisters". The digestible bit is inside an indigestible bit, so it has to be ground or chewed thoroughly. If you see corn kernels in your poop it means you need to chew your food, not that corn is indigestible.

There is a lot more to what a species can utilize as a food source than dentition. There's no need for dentition to change in order to utilize foods in addition to prey as long as an animal is physically capable of eating it, what is important to digesting carbohydrates is what digestive enzymes are made -- and surprise, surprise there was a recent study about how dogs' amylase levels are higher than wolves and how it implies that they have/are evolving to adapt to digesting more starches in their diets. Dogs came from predators, but have really evolved into combination predator/scavengers who will eat anything they have the opportunity to and are physically capable of eating. 

I have nothing against raw feeding. I feed partially raw because one of my dogs does much better on it. One of my dogs does terrible on raw and he gets kibble. And to be clear, I'm not saying corn is an ideal ingredient diet for all dogs. I'm saying that it's not the devil, and that dogs are individuals and should be treated as such. Most dogs CAN digest it and many do perfectly well when it is included as one ingredient as part of an overall diet, some dogs don't. THOSE dogs shouldn't have corn, but that doesn't mean ALL dogs can't or shouldn't have corn. It's an inexpensive, usable source of carbohydrates - nothing more, nothing less. 


ETA: With the rise in popularity of the high protein, grain-free foods, I am actually seeing a lot more anecdotal evidence for individual variation in dogs. A lot of dogs do great on those foods, but a lot of dogs do poorly on those foods. I see a lot of chronic diarrhea that resolves with a change to a grain inclusive food. Not a scientific study, but it just reinforces my opinion that there is no ideal diet for dogs with a capital D and that dogs can do well or poorly on a wide variety of different foods and ingredients.

As a side note, please put paragraphs in your posts. It's really tiring to read a wall of text with no breaks.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

PomEric said:


> l agree with everything Zilla just said.
> l belong to a number of raw feeding forums (we may have met, Zilla  and the most common statement heard is that they thought their cat/dog was in perfect health until starting a raw diet. Then they witness what perfect health actually looks like.
> l'm a recent convert. l started with my 3 cats last year and saw very positive results.
> My little dog was on a crappy kibble diet for 9 years and seemed outwardly fine. l wouldn't have called him unhealthy at all. He was just at the vet where l found out his liver, kidney and thyroid values are out of whack, and he has 15 bladder stones! He is now getting the same raw diet as the cats and will undergo surgery to remove the stones. l'm not putting him on any prescription foods.
> ...


Yea I would like to see this 90 some years of science joke. What did they compare a dog eating corn too?? They need to compare it to a dog eating raw and then their formulas would obviously be leaps and bounds better than they are now... Then they can talk about "vet recommended #1 brand etc".... The fact of the matter is they are so money hungry and SO good at marketing it's ridiculous... They have shaped everything we previously have thought. Vet students get free Science Diet where I'm from. I don't know if its like that at all the schools or not. They infiltrated the vet schools from day 1 and that's how they've won up until recently when people are getting smarter and doing the homework. Where do you think the kibble cleans teeth thing comes from?? Science diet... Biggest myth of the century.... You almost can't even blame vets for not knowing otherwise. The one or two classes they have in school on nutrition are put on by... Oh yes a SCIENCE DIET rep... And or a Royal Canin Rep... What do you get when you adopt a shelter pet??!! A free bag of Science diet.... It goes on and on... They have a lot of money. To much money from charging people an arm and a leg for a bag of junk when people think they are buying the best... It's SO sad.... A huge scam is all it is and people are starting to bust it wide open... Hence the reason they made Ideal Balance... Even that new line is made cheaply still. Granted the ingredients arnt bad like in the past but there's hardly any protein and its super carb heavy. They also use pea protein concentrate in all of them. What do you think they do that for... Oh yea because they are making up for the actual LACK of meat they put in the food.... Until they make something with stats like Innova Evo I won't touch anything they have made with a 50 foot pole and I defiantly cannot recommend it to anyone either... even then I don't know if I would... Not with their scamming history... 


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> THOSE dogs shouldn't have corn, but that doesn't mean ALL dogs can't or shouldn't have corn. It's an inexpensive, usable source of carbohydrates - nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> 
> ETA: With the rise in popularity of the high protein, grain-free foods, I am actually seeing a lot more anecdotal evidence for individual variation in dogs. A lot of dogs do great on those foods, but a lot of dogs do poorly on those foods. I see a lot of chronic diarrhea that resolves with a change to a grain inclusive food. Not a scientific study, but it just reinforces my opinion that there is no ideal diet for dogs with a capital D and that dogs can do well or poorly on a wide variety of different foods and ingredients.


Ok not that they can't eat it but my point was many health problems can be prevented with a more species appropriate diet and many problems like diabetes and can almost be reversed with that diet... I can eat McDonald's all day too but do you think I'd be in good health? No... Carnivores arnt made for digesting carbohydrates in the first place so one without or the lowest possible is obviously a better choice. Things like corn and cheap ingredients don't make that percentage low...

I realize dogs are different from wolves but they still have the same genetic makeup and the same teeth. When they get flat teeth by god I will be feeding my dog corn and wheat! :lol: dogs didn't evolve to eat highly processed grains.... And this chronic diarrhea problem you speak of... Goes back to what I said about the detox process... Takes time for a dog to rid its body of all the fillers and realize hey I can actually use what they are putting in my body now... I'm not saying everyone should be feeding raw... I'm just saying there are better options for your money! I like my money I don't know about anyone else?! Like a better choice would be a low carb kibble and then their are really bad choices like one thats full of fillers and bad ingredients with a carb level super high.... Dogs can sure eat all the carbs and bad stuff all they want.... But are they gonna be the healthiest they could be? No... 

Text breaks noted... sorry :lol: 





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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> Ok not that they can't eat it but my point was many health problems can be prevented with a more species appropriate diet...


For some dogs, sure. I haven't argued that point at all. But many, many dogs don't have health problems on grain (including corn) inclusive diets. My only point is that there are no blanket statements when it comes to dog nutrition. They have become/are becoming generalists. 



> ...and many problems like diabetes and can almost be reversed with that diet... I can eat McDonald's all day too but do you think I'd be in good health? No... Carnivores arnt made for digesting carbohydrates in the first place so one without or the lowest possible is obviously a better choice.


First of all, comparing a dog eating a corn-inclusive diet to a person eating McDonald's all day is apples to oranges. And obviously based on what? Dogs CAN digest carbohydrates better than wolves, based on their relative amylase levels.



> I realize dogs are different from wolves but they still have the same genetic makeup and the same teeth. When they get flat teeth by god I will be feeding my dog corn and wheat!


Well first of all, if they are different from wolves then no, they don't still have the same genetic makeup. And again, as you apparently missed it in my earlier post... as long as a dog is physically capable of eating a food there is no selection pressure for the dentition to change. But their levels of _digestive enzymes_ are changing, which is incredible! They have been adapting to higher carbohydrate diets while they have co-evolved alongside us. 

Like any genetic trait, it is likely variably expressed in different individuals. Which is probably why some dogs do better on grain inclusive and some do poorly on grain inclusive. Again, dogs benefit the most from being treated like individuals when deciding what to feed them instead of blanket statements about DOGS, IMO.



> And this chronic diarrhea problem you speak of... Goes back to what I said about the detox process... Takes time for a dog to rid its body of all the fillers and realize hey I can actually use what they are putting in my body now...


No, because actually I'm talking about young dogs who have been eating those "better" diets their whole lives and have subsequently had diarrhea their whole lives. No detox required when you've been eating it all along. (And I don't buy that every problem every dog has on raw or high protein/grain-free kibble can be ascribed to "detox" anyway). Obviously those diets weren't best for THOSE dogs. 

Which is my only point - there are very few absolutes when it comes to feeding dogs. People should pick a food in their budget, a food THEIR INDIVIDUAL dog likes and does well on, and that fits with any philosophical ideals they may have. I'm not feeding my raw-fed dog any "better" than my kibble-fed dog - I'm feeding them both what they need to be healthy.


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## PomEric (May 18, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> I used to have a lot of studies bookmarked but cannot find many in there now.
> 
> Things like these used to be posted as proof that dogs don't need good quality foods where it is actually the opposite, those foods are trying to prove they will nourish the animals sufficiently.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links! One of them provided me with the surprise that the CGM caused less struvite crystals to form, and closer to neutral pH, than MM and CM. I didn't expect that at all. lt gave the probable reason, and noted that it wasn't part of the study. Very interesting.

l liked the Iam's one - it is exactly what l'd like to see from Hill's or any of the other "higher priced" manufacturers. And their subsequent justification for their ingredients list.

The last article is also very interesting. My vets are huge proponents of a home cooked diet for both dogs and cats (though they don't oppose raw). Anecdotally, my parents' dog, who went to the same vets, lived on their home cooked diet and was incredibly healthy until he died this year at 17. l may start researching home cooked as opposed (or in addition) to 100% raw. 
Thanks again for the informative links


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> For some dogs, sure. I haven't argued that point at all. But many, many dogs don't have health problems on grain (including corn) inclusive diets. My only point is that there are no blanket statements when it comes to dog nutrition. They have become/are becoming generalists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was using the mcdonalds comparison to make a point about the carbs because thats all Mcdonalds is. Carbs is what gives a person diabetes and its the same thing with a dog. All Im saying is a diet with less carbs can prevent a dog from dying of kidney failure diabetes etc. How does it happen that a vet will diagnose a dog with diabetes give him a "prescription" diet and insulin... Then later the owner starts feeding more species appropriate diet and the dog no longer needs insulin?? If someone out there could make a diet with corn with low carbs then dang they have accomplished something... But thats not really possible because its corn wheat soy and grains in general that are the carb heavy culprits. Thats all Im saying. The rest we an agree to disagree. If dogs have evolved to digest grains better then its not because it happened naturally... Happened because we have made up this heavily processed thing called cheap kibble that WE made for OUR convenience... Not the dogs...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> All Im saying is a diet with less carbs can prevent a dog from dying of kidney failure diabetes etc.


What are you basing this on? 



> How does it happen that a vet will diagnose a dog with diabetes give him a "prescription" diet and insulin... Then later the owner starts feeding more species appropriate diet and the dog no longer needs insulin??


Sure, that's theoretically possible. People and cats can certainly have a non-insulin dependent form of diabetes, so there's no reason a dog couldn't, too. I've just never seen it. Although I've seen dogs' insulin needs decrease dramatically when they lose weight. 



> If someone out there could make a diet with corn with low carbs then dang they have accomplished something... But thats not really possible because its corn wheat soy and grains in general that are the carb heavy culprits.


A lot of grain free diets aren't actually low carbohydrate. Potatoes and peas and millet and tapioca and sweet potatoes all have carbs in them too. And anyone could make a low carbohydrate diet with any ingredient, including pure sugar, depending on how much of it they put in the diet relative to other ingredients. 



> The rest we an agree to disagree. If dogs have evolved to digest grains better then its not because it happened naturally... Happened because we have made up this heavily processed thing called cheap kibble that WE made for OUR convenience... Not the dogs...


What are you basing this on? LOL. How long do you think commercial, processed diets have been around, and what do you think dogs ate before they WERE around? Hint: I guarantee you farm dogs and such weren't getting meat every day when most PEOPLE couldn't even afford to eat meat every day. 

So I guess if we agree on anything, we'll have to agree that I acknowledge dogs can digest grains based on evidence, and you don't acknowledge it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Of our dogs, Summer is the only one that can really do well on very high protein foods like evo. The rest do much better on 'middle of the road protein'. I keep it between 28-35%. Orijen, Evo, etc causes reoccurring loose stools. Not constantly, but often enough that it's a pain in the butt to deal with. 

And yes they were on it a LONG TIME.

Beau can't have chicken but the others can. As long as we keep things in those protein levels and no corn or chicken, everybody does fine. Doesn't seem to matter if it's a grain free or grain inclusive.

Anecdote, but there you go.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Like any genetic trait, it is likely variably expressed in different individuals. Which is probably why some dogs do better on grain inclusive and some do poorly on grain inclusive. Again, dogs benefit the most from being treated like individuals when deciding what to feed them instead of blanket statements about DOGS, IMO.


Just wanted to add that the study that showed dogs have more copies of the amylase gene than wolves also showed substantial variability in amylase activity between individual dogs (Figure 2 in this paper). So.... that pretty much explains why some dogs do just fine on grain, and some don't.

A similar situation in humans would be lactose-intolerance.... some people can't digest lactose at all and some people have no problems at all, and there are people everywhere in between.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

And there are certain groups of people who are more likely to be lactose tolerant than others, because retaining the gene was beneficial to them as a group based on what was environmentally available to them as food sources. So it would make sense that certain breeds/groups of dogs, such as those commonly used on farms, would be more likely to be able to process grains, as they would be more likely to get them as a food source.

Personally, I just think corn is a poor choice as a primary ingredient in food for a carnivore, because it's a plant. And it's a plant that's high in calories. It's not something I want to see as a first ingredient in feed for horses, because it tends to be much higher in calories (ie, energy) versus something like oats, unless I want to put weight on. And a horse is an herbivore who's evolved to eat and process grasses (which corn is really just a large, mutated version of); why I'd want to feed it to a dog as a primary ingredient, confuses me. I'm not wholly opposed to grains in dog food, but I don't think they should be a primary part of their diet.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> What are you basing this on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you not see that carbs cause those diseases? Also before dogs were eating table scraps and did we have this much problem with diabetes kidney failure etc?? No.... If a dog was eating another animal it would be 70 percent water right? Kibble is only ten percent... What do you think causes the urinary issues?? Oh yes the kibble.... We made kibble for our easy convenience... I'm not going to argue with you anymore.... I acknowledge what a carnivore is... You obviously don't. Like I said agree to disagree.... The proof is in the results and what the word carnivore stands for... Period the end... No one is gonna tell me their dog thrived on corn.... Your dog might of been "fine" but he did not thrive.... A carnivore cannot thrive on a plant. Dogs might be able to digest it if you believe that but it doesn't mean the dog is going to be the best they can be.... And yes there are individual variations... I realize that but ideally dogs in general do better with something that's more meat based. Sure some need different protein levels etc... whatever... Bowing out now... 


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well. . .technically, a Giant Panda is a carnivore, based on its teeth and digestive tract. . .I guess something happened somewhere, LOL. I'm not saying that grains/carbs are good for dogs or anything, but obviously they can do OK with them.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Well. . .technically, a Giant Panda is a carnivore, based on its teeth and digestive tract. . .I guess something happened somewhere, LOL. I'm not saying that grains/carbs are good for dogs or anything, but obviously they can do OK with them.


Hahaha pandas are aliens... Something went wrong there :lol: 


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Zilla said:


> How do you not see that carbs cause those diseases? Also before dogs were eating table scraps and did we have this much problem with diabetes kidney failure etc?? No.... If a dog was eating another animal it would be 70 percent water right? Kibble is only ten percent... What do you think causes the urinary issues?? Oh yes the kibble.... We made kibble for our easy convenience... I'm not going to argue with you anymore.... I acknowledge what a carnivore is... You obviously don't. Like I said agree to disagree.... The proof is in the results and what the word carnivore stands for... Period the end... No one is gonna tell me their dog thrived on corn.... Your dog might of been "fine" but he did not thrive.... A carnivore cannot thrive on a plant. Dogs might be able to digest it if you believe that but it doesn't mean the dog is going to be the best they can be.... And yes there are individual variations... I realize that but ideally dogs in general do better with something that's more meat based. Sure some need different protein levels etc... whatever... Bowing out now... ]


I suspect a lot of kidney failure is linked to diabetes... which, in humans, has been linked more strongly to obesity itself than to any single dietary source. Yes, people who are obese tend to consume certain types of foods, but evidence suggests its actually being overweight or obese, regardless of the food types that caused it, that leads to diabetes. And considering dogs now a days are FAR more likely to be overweight than dogs 100 years ago.... maybe that has something to do with it....

Plus, you have to LOOK for something in order to find it. I.e. diagnosis of some diseases increase overtime as the disease becomes more well known and people start actually looking for it, and not solely because the disease itself is increase in incidence.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd also guess that, say, 40 years ago, people wouldn't be treating a sick dog extensively. If it didn't respond to cheap and easy treatments, they'd just put it to sleep. . .IF they sought vet treatment at all. So I don't know if the actual incidences of the diseases are increasing or just awareness/treatment options.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Zilla said:


> How do you not see that carbs cause those diseases? Also before dogs were eating table scraps and did we have this much problem with diabetes kidney failure etc?? No.... If a dog was eating another animal it would be 70 percent water right? Kibble is only ten percent... What do you think causes the urinary issues?? Oh yes the kibble.... We made kibble for our easy convenience... I'm not going to argue with you anymore.... I acknowledge what a carnivore is... You obviously don't. Like I said agree to disagree.... The proof is in the results and what the word carnivore stands for... Period the end... No one is gonna tell me their dog thrived on corn.... Your dog might of been "fine" but he did not thrive.... A carnivore cannot thrive on a plant. Dogs might be able to digest it if you believe that but it doesn't mean the dog is going to be the best they can be.... And yes there are individual variations... I realize that but ideally dogs in general do better with something that's more meat based. Sure some need different protein levels etc... whatever... Bowing out now...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ha, Sassafras is giving you reasoned arguments as to why these things aren't the horrible "toxins" you claimed them to be. She didn't say they are the best diet but explained with evidence why they aren't as evil as you seem to think. Meanwhile you are plugging you ears with your fingers going "I can't hear you, I don't want to hear you, your wrong" to factual information. Your rebuttals are mostly just "they aren't the best ingredient" but no one claimed they where, just that they aren't as bad as you claim and some dogs do in fact do well on them. Could these dogs do better on another diet possibly but that isn't the point.

And really... You are making the claim that carbs and cards alone are the cause of diabetes? Diabetes is most often the result of obesity, granted a high card diet is a good way to end up with an obese dog but there are a couple steps in between you are skipping. You can end up with an obese dog even on the highest quality kibbles if the dog is over fed and under exerised, they lower carbs in that diet isn't going to prevent the possibility of developing diabetes. 

Honestly you seem to be one of the people who have done a little research into the extreme raw feeders sites and drank the koolaid that anything BUT raw is bad for dogs which just isn't true. I'd suggest you look further into multiple sources and weigh the information before spouting off what you've read at one biased source as the be all end all facts. No one here has claimed raw feeding isn't a good option, great for some dogs in fact, simply that corn, grains, etc are not the evil you are stating as fact.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> How do you not see that carbs cause those diseases?


Why do you think carbs cause those diseases? Obesity and a sedentary lifestyle do far more to contribute to diabetes than carbohydrates.



> Also before dogs were eating table scraps and did we have this much problem with diabetes kidney failure etc?? No....


When dogs were eating corn mush and potato skins, you mean? That's an exaggeration, but _people_ did not even consume meat regularly until very recently, so they sure as heck weren't feeding it to their dogs. And nobody knows if we had "this much" (which honestly isn't as much as you're making it out to be, I can count the number of diabetic and kidney failure dog patients I have on my two hands) of anything before people gave a crap about diagnosing and treating problems in their dogs - which was also a relatively recent development.



> If a dog was eating another animal it would be 70 percent water right? Kibble is only ten percent... What do you think causes the urinary issues?? Oh yes the kibble.... We made kibble for our easy convenience... I'm not going to argue with you anymore....


Which urinary issues? And so what if we made kibble for our easy convenience? Convenience isn't a dirty sin.



> I acknowledge what a carnivore is... You obviously don't.


I acknowledge what a carnivore is. I don't believe dogs are carnivores anymore, regardless of what their teeth look like. I'm looking at what they can _digest_ and they have clearly adapted to digest more food sources than an obligate carnivore like, say, a cat.



> Like I said agree to disagree.... The proof is in the results and what the word carnivore stands for... Period the end... No one is gonna tell me their dog thrived on corn.... Your dog might of been "fine" but he did not thrive....


Aheheh how do you know what my dogs eat, let alone whether they are thriving or not? Or if anyone else's dogs are thriving? "Agreeing to disagree" doesn't = "I won't believe what you say under any circumstances LOL. 

I work with dogs all day, every day, and I can tell you there are a LOT of dogs on these foods who ARE thriving, live to a ripe old age, and are not experiencing epidemics of diabetes, kidney failure, or "urinary issues". Just because you read it on an echo chamber website somewhere, doesn't make it true.



> A carnivore cannot thrive on a plant. Dogs might be able to digest it if you believe that...


If I believe it? LOL. It's not a matter of belief, dogs can digest corn and grains. And lots of other things. I've never said a dog could thrive on corn _alone_ but that there's nothing wrong with including it in a diet.

Oh, and all those "high quality" kibbles that have stuff like "chicken" as the first ingredient? Once you take the water out, it's waaaaay farther down on the list. Those labels are misleading. Just sayin' that maybe there's some marketing going on all over the place. 



> ... but it doesn't mean the dog is going to be the best they can be....


It doesn't mean they're not, either.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Never did I say nothing should be fed to a dog but raw meat. All I simply tried to say was in general they do better on something thats more meat. Didnt say raw meat. What have I been trying to say this whole time?? Carbs cause the obesity which THEN causes the diabetes kidney failure etc. Its a lot harder to make a dog obese on a low carb kibble... The whole point I was trying to make this entire time. I never said the ingredients were the devil either.... There are SOME kibbles out there that have a few grains but are still low carb... Nothing wrong with those... You show me a study done saying dogs can digest grains and use it as much as they can meat then I will change my thinking 180 but sadly I dont think there is such thing. Then and only then will I believe a dog is no longer a carnivore... Thats like saying the dog has evolved to eat the man made product called kibble... not hardly

What does a doctor tell you to do when you have a urinary tract infection??? DRINK WATER.... What gives it to a dog?? LACK OF WATER in the diet... Good lord... What do the "prescription" diet kibbles do?? Keeps the pH of the urine a certain range and then its less likely to block but does it fix the actual problem which is oh yea lack of water... No. Why do they normally recommend a canned prescription food? Oh yea because its more species appropriate because of the water content and cans tend to have more meat...

Good for you if you can count those patients on your hands. I see people come in my store every day buying those prescription diets multiple times a day. Its clearly a bigger problem than you want to think...


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

I am new to this forum and trying to follow these statements. I have a 4 year old Bichon frise. I have had him on Verus kibble in which he came to us with that kibble. We have had him since he was 4 months old. I switched him to Instinct by Natures Variety on a rotation type diet. Point is his stools were always very soft. VERY soft little form to them. The fat content is high in most of there foods, as well. He gained some weight so I took him off and gave him the CORE Wellness everyone raves about, did a slow transition and he started vomiting. I have been home cooking since he is off all kibble and his bowels are the best I have ever seen them---perfect! Not to hard or soft just perfect.No vomiting at all. So am I to assume the kibble due to high protein caused the looser bowels? That is what I am understanding from these comments? He has also lost 1.5 pounds w/o the kibble. I am so afraid of kibble you all have no idea how afraid I am of what to purchase. The vet told me needed to loose a few pounds and recommended Ideal Balance from Hills based on how it has been '"reformulated." I was paying $18.00 a bag for Instinct and Ideal Balance is $9.99.

It just didn't seem right to me. So I did not purchase it as it seemed a much lower quality then what he was getting. Of course that does not mean it would not have worked for him Another thing is poop was awful smelling now on home diet it does not smell At all. He is a therapy dog--they frown against raw feeding so that is not an option for me. I am now thinking the high protein might not be so good for him---? I am in between as what to do for him or what is best for him. Over the long term----? I totally feel when I feed him healthy foods I know what he is getting at least. The Vet did make a good case as to why she recommended Ideal Balance as the point is from what I GET out of it that they (Hills) have had no recalls and they test on animals. she is fresh out of vet school so with all due respect she BELIEVES what she is saying and it is balanced out versus a high protein diet--equal amounts. I just cannot bring myself to buy it!! She did recommend Wellness also --


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Just because they charge a certain price for a bag of dog kibble doesn't mean it's good kibble 

Would you want to eat corn and meat "byproducts" every day if you were strictly a carnivore?


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## PomEric (May 18, 2013)

Benjismom said:


> I am new to this forum and trying to follow these statements. I have a 4 year old Bichon frise. I have had him on Verus kibble in which he came to us with that kibble. We have had him since he was 4 months old. I switched him to Instinct by Natures Variety on a rotation type diet. Point is his stools were always very soft. VERY soft little form to them. The fat content is high in most of there foods, as well. He gained some weight so I took him off and gave him the CORE Wellness everyone raves about, did a slow transition and he started vomiting. I have been home cooking since he is off all kibble and his bowels are the best I have ever seen them---perfect! Not to hard or soft just perfect.No vomiting at all. So am I to assume the kibble due to high protein caused the looser bowels? That is what I am understanding from these comments? He has also lost 1.5 pounds w/o the kibble. I am so afraid of kibble you all have no idea how afraid I am of what to purchase. The vet told me needed to loose a few pounds and recommended Ideal Balance from Hills based on how it has been '"reformulated." I was paying $18.00 a bag for Instinct and Ideal Balance is $9.99.
> 
> It just didn't seem right to me. So I did not purchase it as it seemed a much lower quality then what he was getting. Of course that does not mean it would not have worked for him Another thing is poop was awful smelling now on home diet it does not smell At all. He is a therapy dog--they frown against raw feeding so that is not an option for me. I am now thinking the high protein might not be so good for him---? I am in between as what to do for him or what is best for him. Over the long term----? I totally feel when I feed him healthy foods I know what he is getting at least. The Vet did make a good case as to why she recommended Ideal Balance as the point is from what I GET out of it that they (Hills) have had no recalls and they test on animals. she is fresh out of vet school so with all due respect she BELIEVES what she is saying and it is balanced out versus a high protein diet--equal amounts. I just cannot bring myself to buy it!! She did recommend Wellness also --


As long as you are giving him a good nutritious and balanced homemade diet (inc. Ca), the kibble will only be secondary, and less "damaging" if that is what you're afraid of.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Benjismom, what are you cooking for your dog? Home cooked food can be very high fat and protein. Have tests been done? Perhaps your dog has a pancreas that is in trouble.

I overfed EVO. Max had soft poop feeding through 2 large bags. That was my only fail at feeding kibble. I needed to feed him such a tiny amount it was just not possible even though I never did have a clue as to how much protein and calories I was giving back then.

When Sassy got too much food at one time she regurgitated the excess. When I fed her twice a day she had nasty poop and didn't gain weight but fed 3x a day she had nice poop and gained weight. Too much fat did cause mucous in the stool and it would get soft, I decreased fat and things would go back to perfect. This was as a very ill and old dog but plenty of dogs have similar issues when younger.

I suspect you overfed your dog more than the commercial foods disagreed. Those charts on the back of the bag are far more than most dogs can use and they may not get fat when overfed. I also feel strongly that a fresh food diet is better if you can swing it. Unless you are taking steps to balance the diet it isn't best though. My 38 pound dog needs as much of several key nutrients as an adult human and needs to get them in about 1/3 the calories an adult human needs. Max is fed a prey model raw diet and even though it ought to cover all the bases he does better if I balance it to NRC levels by adding some additional trace minerals and vitamin E.

I know my dogs did better with better ingredients, went through feeding Science Diet and the dogs didn't do as well on it. I do think Science Diet is a quality company with good clean processing of ingredients that are pure but I disagree with what they think is good for dogs and their choices are made for other reasons, not because they are the best for dogs.

I hope to continue feeding my pets fresh food and wish others would get over the 'spoiling' issue and add some fresh food to kibble if they aren't comfortable or able to balance a fresh food diet of some sort. Granted my dogs weren't in horrible shape on pretty good quality kibble but I really am not all that observant and the condition changes in the dogs were significant once moved to fresh food balanced to their needs.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Kayla my dog has never had corn or by-products not sure of your response? Instinct certainly has none of these --Instinct is not even carried by pet smart or local chains. I have purchased at a specialty food store. I have followed what the Bichon club of American has recommended and that was one kibble they did recommend. I think one size certainly does not fit all with dogs. What is good for one may not be for another. That being said there seems to be many people who have always fed there dog say for example "Wellness" But they are claiming there has been a change in the manufacturing of a specific dog food and they are now not as happy as they once were with a particular brand. What I am afraid of is the products in kibble and where they are coming from etc. My original question was it the high protein that caused the loose stools (?) or is the high fat content? Now with home feeding I have to incorporate calcium ratios minerals and proper vitamin supplements. I have met several people who have had poodles and there dogs NEVER had dog food, and they lived to be 18-20 years old.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Home cooking is excellent if you balance it properly . You have way more control over the ingredients. I have to home cook for one of my cats. . .the other cats get canned and raw but she is such a brat .


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Willowy yes I think so. Let me also "clarify" when I say home cooking I mean organic chicken breast, Salmon, egg whites, ground turkey, small amount of ground beef, (protein choices), fresh carrots, green beans peas sweet potatoes some rice, brown or white. I am speaking healthy food not french fries or pizza--only healthy foods. My husband says he will never go back to dog food now! I mix all the proteins up different ones twice a day.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> What have I been trying to say this whole time??


Honestly you keep changing what is "all you are saying" so it's a bit hard to keep up and I'm not even sure at this point. All I've been trying to say this whole time has never been that dogs should not have meat in their diet. My point is simply that it's ok if a food contains corn or grains as long as an individual dog tolerates them. 



> Carbs cause the obesity which THEN causes the diabetes kidney failure etc.


You baldly stated just a few posts above that carbs CAUSE those diseases!



> Its a lot harder to make a dog obese on a low carb kibble... The whole point I was trying to make this entire time.


It certainly is not harder to make a dog obese on low carb kibble. In fact, most of the grain-free/low carb kibbles are very calorie dense and people often overfeed them IME. Feeding too many _calories_ is what makes a dog obese, not too many carbs in the diet. 



> You show me a study done saying dogs can digest grains and use it as much as they can meat then I will change my thinking 180 but sadly I dont think there is such thing. Then and only then will I believe a dog is no longer a carnivore...


Well I doubt it, but ok. Here's one study.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html

If the study is a little dry, here are a couple of articles that discuss and reference the study.

http://www.livescience.com/26513-starchy-human-diet-domesticated-dogs.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2013/01/dog-domestication-tied-to-starch.html




> Thats like saying the dog has evolved to eat the man made product called kibble... not hardly


It's not hardly like saying that at all. It's like saying that... dogs adapted to a diet available to them which included starches. Which is what all species that evolve to a particular diet do. 



> What gives it to a dog?? LACK OF WATER in the diet... Good lord... What do the "prescription" diet kibbles do?? Keeps the pH of the urine a certain range and then its less likely to block but does it fix the actual problem which is oh yea lack of water... No. Why do they normally recommend a canned prescription food? Oh yea because its more species appropriate because of the water content and cans tend to have more meat...


Well, lots of things can cause a urinary tract infection. Poor hygiene, holding the urine, anatomical abnormalities, tucked up vulvas in females, immune deficiencies, incontinence, stones. Honestly a "lack of water" does not strictly cause infections, though, although not urinating regularly can and I suppose not enough water could lead to that. Honestly, though, if a dog has water available most of them are going to drink it. Unlike cats, who really need the water in their diet.

And prescription diets are not used to treat urinary tract _infections_. They may be used in dogs that form stones, though. 



> Good for you if you can count those patients on your hands. I see people come in my store every day buying those prescription diets multiple times a day. Its clearly a bigger problem than you want to think...


You see diabetic and kidney failure dogs coming into your store _every day_? (Which are the patients that I specified I could count on two hands.) Someone needs to look at the water in your town, because frankly you are experiencing an epidemic of frightening proportions.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Benjismom said:


> Kayla my dog has never had corn or by-products not sure of your response? Instinct certainly has none of these --Instinct is not even carried by pet smart or local chains. I have purchased at a specialty food store. I have followed what the Bichon club of American has recommended and that was one kibble they did recommend. I think one size certainly does not fit all with dogs. What is good for one may not be for another. That being said there seems to be many people who have always fed there dog say for example "Wellness" But they are claiming there has been a change in the manufacturing of a specific dog food and they are now not as happy as they once were with a particular brand. What I am afraid of is the products in kibble and where they are coming from etc. My original question was it the high protein that caused the loose stools (?) or is the high fat content? Now with home feeding I have to incorporate calcium ratios minerals and proper vitamin supplements. I have met several people who have had poodles and there dogs NEVER had dog food, and they lived to be 18-20 years old.


I wasn't responding to your question, I was responding to the original poster and the original question of the thread


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Benjismom said:


> I am so afraid of kibble you all have no idea how afraid I am of what to purchase.


Benjismom, this is NOT directed towards you, but... this is EXACTLY why I hate these vehement, anti-kibble rant threads. People should not be afraid to feed their dogs, and feeding dogs should not be this hard! *bangs head on wall*

If your dog is doing well on the home cooked diet and you are happy doing it and can afford it, then feed the home cooked diet. It's easy to end up deficient in certain minerals with cooked, though, because people tend to use muscle meat only. Be sure you are including some organs and either supplement with bone meal or find another way to get some bone into the diet. You should never feed cooked whole bones, although I have cooked the bone/organ/meat grinds you can find at some butchers or meat packers and fed that since the bone fragments are ground up.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> Just because they charge a certain price for a bag of dog kibble doesn't mean it's good kibble
> 
> Would you want to eat corn and meat "byproducts" every day if you were strictly a carnivore?


Have you seen SD Ideal Balance? It's actually a pretty decent formula.



Chicken, Brown Rice, Whole Grain Oats, Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Meal, Pea Protein Concentrate, Chicken Fat, Potato Protein, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Lactic Acid, Fish Oil, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vegetable & Fruit Blend (Green Peas, Apples, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli), Iodized Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols for freshness, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Natural Flavors

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) 25.0%; Crude Fat (min.) 16.5%; Crude Fiber (max.) 3.5%; Moisture (max.) 10.0%; Vitamin E (min.) 550 IU/kg; Ascorbic Acid* (Vitamin C) (min.) 85 mg/kg; Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (min.) 0.3%; Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (min.) 3.5%

http://www.petco.com/shop/searchresults.aspx?Ntt=ideal+balance&x=0&y=0


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

I know this is true and it should not be so difficult I was raised as a child with dogs. We always had a dog in our family. Never ONCE can I remember my Mother saying "I don't know what to feed the dog?" It was a no brainer. You went to the grocery store there were 2 choices I believe, alpo and purina and that is what they got and they lived till they were 12-13 years old. Both died of cancer--we never questioned the food. I do not remember my family going on and on about the dog food as I do---Not sure how or why all this happened but it has never the less. I am fine with what you say I was only stating as a result of all the foods available perhaps or recalls it has created this sense of craziness and now I am one of them running around from vet to vet paying for advice I don't even take. Silly--we all question what we are told. in the end we do what we feel most comfortable doing I guess.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

It just absolutely breaks my heart to see people with dogs_ who are already doing well_ agonize over the food to the degree where it causes anxiety in their lives. (Not directly at you particularly, Benjismom.) 

If a dog isn't doing well then obviously the diet should be examined. But if a dog is doing well eating the food it's eating, then all of this hand-wringing is just a solution in search of a problem.


ETA: Yea my childhood dog lived to 16 eating mostly Gaines burgers (gag) with no major problems in his life. One of my current dogs doesn't do well on kibble, one doesn't do well on raw, and the third thrives on pretty much anything. Individuals are individuals.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Benjismom said:


> I am new to this forum and trying to follow these statements. I have a 4 year old Bichon frise. I have had him on Verus kibble in which he came to us with that kibble. We have had him since he was 4 months old. I switched him to Instinct by Natures Variety on a rotation type diet. Point is his stools were always very soft. VERY soft little form to them. The fat content is high in most of there foods, as well. He gained some weight so I took him off and gave him the CORE Wellness everyone raves about, did a slow transition and he started vomiting. I have been home cooking since he is off all kibble and his bowels are the best I have ever seen them---perfect! Not to hard or soft just perfect.No vomiting at all. So am I to assume the kibble due to high protein caused the looser bowels? That is what I am understanding from these comments? He has also lost 1.5 pounds w/o the kibble. I am so afraid of kibble you all have no idea how afraid I am of what to purchase. The vet told me needed to loose a few pounds and recommended Ideal Balance from Hills based on how it has been '"reformulated." I was paying $18.00 a bag for Instinct and Ideal Balance is $9.99.
> 
> It just didn't seem right to me. So I did not purchase it as it seemed a much lower quality then what he was getting. Of course that does not mean it would not have worked for him Another thing is poop was awful smelling now on home diet it does not smell At all. He is a therapy dog--they frown against raw feeding so that is not an option for me. I am now thinking the high protein might not be so good for him---? I am in between as what to do for him or what is best for him. Over the long term----? I totally feel when I feed him healthy foods I know what he is getting at least. The Vet did make a good case as to why she recommended Ideal Balance as the point is from what I GET out of it that they (Hills) have had no recalls and they test on animals. she is fresh out of vet school so with all due respect she BELIEVES what she is saying and it is balanced out versus a high protein diet--equal amounts. I just cannot bring myself to buy it!! She did recommend Wellness also --


Just stick with the home cooking with an occasional lower protein (made with REAL MEAT not byproducts) kibble. My point about starting this entire post is not that GRAINS are bad (I think they are fine, depending on your dog -- I had an allergy dog that couldnt eat corn, wheat, poultry, tomatoes, lamb amonsgst other environmental allergies-- we had him skin tested at a canine allergist-- but he did fine on home cooked with occasional brown rice and venison kibble)--

But that I was very upset to see my Vet recccommending -- and OVERCHARGING-- for a bag of kibble with very poor ingredients-- yeah there are no recalls-- there is not alot that can go wrong with a bag of corn meal with some fat and waste fiber thrown in!!!!!

Do use your common sense (and for us, Solid Gold-- look it up -- I thought it was a weird name too-- has worked for us for very diff dogs for 19years!!!)
I cant afford Wellness with 260lbs of dogs to feed but that is why I do supplement with the home diet-- raw hamburger whole eggs (we have free range hens)and cottage cheese and rice...


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Zilla said:


> How do you not see that carbs cause those diseases? Also before dogs were eating table scraps and did we have this much problem with diabetes kidney failure etc?? No.... If a dog was eating another animal it would be 70 percent water right? Kibble is only ten percent... What do you think causes the urinary issues?? Oh yes the kibble.... We made kibble for our easy convenience... I'm not going to argue with you anymore.... I acknowledge what a carnivore is... You obviously don't. Like I said agree to disagree.... The proof is in the results and what the word carnivore stands for... Period the end... No one is gonna tell me their dog thrived on corn.... Your dog might of been "fine" but he did not thrive.... A carnivore cannot thrive on a plant. Dogs might be able to digest it if you believe that but it doesn't mean the dog is going to be the best they can be.... And yes there are individual variations... I realize that but ideally dogs in general do better with something that's more meat based. Sure some need different protein levels etc... whatever... Bowing out now...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I too wish I could just make up random statements and believe they were true.

So, you've seen the proof through people that come and buy food at your store? Seems legit and not like anecdotal reports at all...

Have I missed anything?


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Reading all this reminds me of when my husbands eyes glaze over when I talk dog food.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Mr. V said:


> I too wish I could just make up random statements and believe they were true.
> 
> So, you've seen the proof through people that come and buy food at your store? Seems legit and not like anecdotal reports at all...
> 
> Have I missed anything?


Make up random statements that are true... Sorry but that's not what I'm doing... Which part are you thinking I "made up"??


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Talk to any vet who doesn't promote science diet and who knows anything about canned and raw diets and they will say the exact same thing I've been saying this whole time.... 


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll agree that carbs do bad things to cats. And ferrets. For dogs. . .I dunno. I think they've developed so closely with humans that they can do OK with more carbs/grains in their diets than a true obligate carnivore. Some breeds and individuals more than others. I don't think carbs are _necessary_, but harmful. . .nah.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Zilla said:


> Talk to any vet who doesn't promote science diet and who knows anything about canned and raw diets and they will say the exact same thing I've been saying this whole time....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I certainly don't want to put words in Sassafras' mouth here but you've actually been debating with a vet who I'm fairly certain has said she recommends other kibbles (based on owners price range). And really you should go back and actually READ what you've said. A number of the statements you've writen are not true, I'm too lazy to find and copy them all on my iPad though. The easiest one I can pull from my head is that carbs cause diabetes and kidney disease. No vet or person with much knowledge of diabetes will agree with that statement. Three of us have already explained why, but just now you are standing by all your statements?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> Talk to any vet who doesn't promote science diet and who knows anything about canned and raw diets and they will say the exact same thing I've been saying this whole time....


LOL I am a vet (not sure who you thought my patients were, otherwise) and I hope I know anything about raw diets since I feed partially raw. And I say the exact same thing I've been saying this whole time. And with very few exceptions for specific medical conditions, I don't "promote" or make blanket recommendations for any particular diet or type of diet. 

Did you get a chance to look at the study I linked? The ones about dogs being about to digest starches? Here are the links again in case you missed it, although I doubt very much it will change your mind:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html


http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=dog-evolution-included-getting-the-13-01-31
http://www.nature.com/news/dog-s-dinner-was-key-to-domestication-1.12280


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

If you don't understand that the carbs is what gives diabetes to a person then you arnt going to understand that it is the same reason dogs develop it along with excessive weight gain.... My moms cat developed diabetes at only 8 and she wasnt even over weight.... Like I said the only thing we can do here is agree to disagree.... Moving on now 


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Zilla said:


> If you don't understand that the carbs is what gives diabetes to a person then you arnt going to understand that it is the same reason dogs develop it along with excessive weight gain.... My moms cat developed diabetes at only 8 and she wasnt even over weight.... Like I said the only thing we can do here is agree to disagree.... Moving on now


But again, cats are different. Cats are obligate carnivores. Carbs do Bad Things to them. Dogs are carnivores, but not obligate (by scientific classifactions) carnivores, I think the term for it is "opportunistic carnivore" or something like that. Which means, they can eat a much wider variety of things and still be healthy. You can't really compare cats and dogs when it comes to the carb issue.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> If you don't understand that the carbs is what gives diabetes to a person...


Carbs don't "give" diabetes to a person. 



> My moms cat developed diabetes at only 8 and she wasnt even over weight....


Cats and dogs are very different. 



> Like I said the only thing we can do here is agree to disagree.... Moving on now


So did you get a chance to look at that study?


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Zilla said:


> If you don't understand that the carbs is what gives diabetes to a person then you arnt going to understand that it is the same reason dogs develop it along with excessive weight gain.... My moms cat developed diabetes at only 8 and she wasnt even over weight.... Like I said the only thing we can do here is agree to disagree.... Moving on now
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


/facepalm

It really is like arguing with a brick wall, nothing sinks in.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm sitting here imagining catching diabetes from my morning toast, like cooties or something. DANGIT MY TOAST GAVE ME DIABETES.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I'm sitting here imagining catching diabetes from my morning toast, like cooties or something. DANGIT MY TOAST GAVE ME DIABETES.


Ha, I'm just thinking how lucky I am to not be dead already because of my very high carb diet. Love me some carbs. Never mind the fact that I'm 6'1" and max out at about 150# and have no family history of diabetes. Carbs cause diabetes therefore I'm living on borrowed time I guess.

Edit:
In all seriousness I did spend a summer in college working in a diabetes obesity research lab so I do in fact have a clue what I'm talking about when it comes to diabetes. Not an expert but not clueless either.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Cats and dogs are very different.


Noooooo, they're the same...just look at their teeth.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dagwall said:


> Ha, I'm just thinking how lucky I am to not be dead already because of my very high carb diet. Love me some carbs. Never mind the fact that I'm 6'1" and max out at about 150# and have no family history of diabetes. Carbs cause diabetes therefore I'm living on borrowed time I guess.
> 
> Edit:
> In all seriousness I did spend a summer in college working in a diabetes obesity research lab so I do in fact have a clue what I'm talking about when it comes to diabetes. Not an expert but not clueless either.


I actually do have a family history of adult-onset diabetes so I try to keep them reasonable despite my deep and abiding love, but I'm also not anywhere near as sedentary as and get far more exercise than my parents have been throughout their lives so there's that. So far so good. 

And we both know that if and when it happens, it's far more complicated than that the carbs gave me diabetes.



Emmett said:


> Noooooo, they're the same...just look at their teeth.
> 
> Sorry, I just couldn't resist.


I see what you did there.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I can clearly see this isn't one of those "friendly" forums... Not interested in being on one who attacks one persons opinions because they are different from others..... Why a lot of people don't stick around on them... 

Dogs are a little different than cats.... Half of me saying the things I do is the cat brain talking.... My vet here has said everything I have. Granted she's a cat only vet right now... But she backs everything that's on feline-nutrition.org and catinfo.org.... Maybe you should browse and then you might understand where Im coming from... Especially about the kibble being the culprit for urinary problems... I apologize if I came off rude. I certainly would not sit here make fun of anyone's opinions like all of you are doing... 


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> . Dogs are a little different than cats.... Half of me saying the things I do is the cat brain talking.... My vet here has said everything I have. Granted she's a cat only vet right now... But she backs everything that's on feline-nutrition.org and catinfo.org.... Maybe you should browse and then you might understand where Im coming from... Especially about the kibble being the culprit for urinary problems... I apologize if I came off rude. I certainly would not sit here make fun of anyone's opinions like all of you are doing...


Dogs are A LOT different than cats. Tremendously different than cats. Cats are not small dogs, and dogs are not big cats. I'm actually really shocked that a cat vet, who should understand how different cats and dogs are and how unique cats are, would try to extrapolate nutritional information from one to the other. 

Anything on feline-nutrition.org and catinfo.org (which are GREAT sites for cats) applies to CATS, NOT dogs! 

Once again, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html

If I am making fun of anything, it is not your opinions. It is your stubborn refusal to acknowledge any rational points that contradict your opinions. There is only so long I can bang my head against a wall before I start getting a little loopy.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Was that article published recently?? It's interesting I'll admit.... I've never seen it 


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Zilla said:


> I can clearly see this isn't one of those "friendly" forums... Not interested in being on one who attacks one persons opinions because they are different from others..... Why a lot of people don't stick around on them...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You don't get to many forums, do you? This place is pretty mild compared to some I've read.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Zilla said:


> I can clearly see this isn't one of those "friendly" forums... Not interested in being on one who attacks one persons opinions because they are different from others..... Why a lot of people don't stick around on them...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not to belabor a point but you didn't just express opinions you made statements as facts. Saying dogs can't digest corn, carbs cause diabetes are not opinions, they are statements of "fact" and in this case aren't true. If you had stated opinions like "I prefer to feed foods without corn and low in carbs" or "I think dogs do better on diets without corn and low in carbs" you wouldn't have been "attacked." Really no one attacked you or even really disagreed with the opinions I've written above, we just get tired of seeing people make false statements. And really it's not even so much about convincing you of anything but just not letting those false statements stand for the lurkers to read and believe.

And as Inked said this is actually a very friendly forum overall, the truly rude people get banned pretty quickly. Not agreeing with you isn't attacking you. I think where you're getting yourself in trouble mostly is you are speaking too broadly and crossing over from an idea to an incorrect fact. There is a kernel of truth to some of the things you are saying for sure but your statements go too far from that kernel of truth and no longer apply.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Zilla said:


> Was that article published recently?? It's interesting I'll admit.... I've never seen it


Yes, it was published last year.


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

Ugh. *sigh*. The dog food debate just goes on and on LOL. Facts, anecdotal evidence, science, research, personal experience, opinions, blah, blah blah............

Feed what works for your dog, end of story - there is no 'perfect' food. I have experienced with everything from grain inclusive kibble, grain free, homecooked, commercial raw, prey model raw.. usualy a combination of a few and I've discovered that NONE of them are perfect.

While yes, I can %100 confidently and proudly admit raw has been the best for my dogs healthwise, a significant improvement in certain areas like dental health, skin, fur, stools, energy levels, and just overall health, it definitely has its downsides when it comes to convenience and time, especially prey model. For the last year or so I"ve been feeding exclusively a combination of prey model and commercial raw.. commercial raw being very expensive and very convenient, and prey model being very cheap and very time consuming.

Before that, I was feeding combination of grain inclusive, grain free kibbles and commercial raw. I found too many problems with this combination, one of which was the cost, however, I did managed to eliminate a few of their noticeable health problems by switching to grain-free, HOWEVER.. I had problems with grain free too.. soft stools and or occasional diarrhea, I solved this problem by decreasing the portion of kibble by about 1/4 for each dog, but just goes to show that again, nothing is perfect. Dogs had skin issue's with grain inclusive, and had softer stools with grain free.. at one point, I mixed a 50/50 combo of a grain inclusive and a grain-free, I think, from what I recall, this actually worked well... for a period of time until something else went wrong. I just couldn't seem to find anyting that worked perfectly.

...and, I still don't. While the commercial raw and prey model raw has worked perfectly for the most part as far as my dogs health, my convenience and costs are concerned, now that summertime has approached I have a serious lack of time for preparing and planning prey model meals.. this means feeding more commercial raw which, my bank account doesn't agree with, especially since I do alot this time of year and spend more money on the things I like to do, plus, i'm planning my wedding. SO, we are now feeding a combo of kibble, two kinds mixed 50/50 that I love and have done great in the past and ingredients are reasonable (Acana Grasslands and Horizon Legacy), prey model and commercial raw. In any given week I'm feeding all three, for this time of year anyway and with everything I have on the go, its working out economically, health and convenience-wise. My dogs do get uglier looking stools after eating kibble, but, I feed very little of it to make a huge difference and they really seem to enjoy the variety in the diet. While I'm definitley very pro raw-feeder, I have no problems in feeding what works for ME too, I love my dogs and do the best I absolutely can for them, but, if i'm having a hectic week like most of my summer is, and I don't have time to prep their meals for the week or even if I do and I keep forgetting to thaw something out, then, sorry boys.. kibble it is. Is it going to shorten their life span or cause a whack of health problems eating it for 3 or 4 meals a week? Probably not. Is it saving me time and sanity, and a little more cost effective than feeding commercial raw when feeding PMR isn't convenient? Yes.

So.. nothing is perfect IMO, this little combination we have going on seems to balance everything out, for the time being anyway. I would love to be able to feed PMR exclusively, but I don't have the freezer space or time for it. I don't have the money to feed commercial raw all the time when PMR is not convenient or i'm out and waiting for the next shipment to arrive. I don't prefer feeding kibble because of the issue's my dogs are prone to developing on it, the brands I prefer to feed are a touch expensive but it is absolutely the most convenient way to feed my dogs so when price and time is of the essence, kibble it is. Acana and Horizon Legacy are very well rated kibble so I don't feel TOO terrible for feeding it, the dogs like it and its not causing them too many issue's thus far.

cest la vie..


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

My husband lives on a... carb only diet. No, really. He's sitting at the table eating an entire papa johns pizza as I type this, by himself. Cheese and a pile of ranch on the side. He's almost 27 and he's a twig and at no risk for diabetes (according to his doctor, gasp!). We eat spaghetti about 4 times a week sometimes. He doesn't even use sauce. It's loaded with butter and parmasean cheese. The whole... carbs give people diabetes is null. Hah!


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> My husband lives on a... carb only diet. No, really. He's sitting at the table eating an entire papa johns pizza as I type this, by himself. Cheese and a pile of ranch on the side. He's almost 27 and he's a twig and at no risk for diabetes (according to his doctor, gasp!). We eat spaghetti about 4 times a week sometimes. He doesn't even use sauce. It's loaded with butter and parmasean cheese. The whole... carbs give people diabetes is null. Hah!


I would be willing to bet if he kept eating that way when he's closer to 40 or 50 it will start catching up to him.. thats the problem with bad diets, for some, the issue's don't creep up until later in life when the effects from it are alot more difficult to deal with and in some cases irreversible.. 

My husband is the same way, he's 31, and eats a high carb diet. He's eaten this way since we started dating when he was 22 or 23.. he's not had any issue's from it. He's relatively active, though.. so that probalby helps.. however, that 'wheat belly' sure is catching up on him, and no matter what physical exercise he does, it doesn't go anywhere and keeps growing. The problem with carbs is that they tend to make you feel hungrier, so you eat more, when you don't really need it.

I think, generally, men can eat higher carb diets with less negative effects, though. I can't. I eat a very low carb diet.. usually carbs mean processed and I avoid processed foods as much as I possibly can. If I'm eating processed foods or carbs.. I just feel like poop. My energy levels decline, I dont sleep well, I feel hungrier and have severe cravings, I become bloated and gain weight easily...

The problem is how our grains are processed and farmed these days, not so much the grains themselves. Most grains after being processed (which is the form most humans eat them in) provide relatively little nutrients and have nothing but sugar in them due to the processing... and high sugar levels lead to obesity which can lead to diabetes. Needless to say, I don't know, or have seen many people, who are obese, have diabetes, or other types of autoimmune diseases who eat an exclusive fresh food diet that contains no processed foods, sugars, fast food, etc etc. Its not just grains that cause problems, its deep fried, high fatty foods, GMO's, sugary beverages, chips, candy, etc, etc.. its likely quite a few things but since processed grains are a HUGE part of the western diet and are consumed almost 3 - 4 times a day for alot of people, I wouldn't be surprised if they are one of the biggest contributors to many health problems. I know of one diabetic person who was able to cure their diabetes by cutting grains and processed foods out of their diet, is it to say it was the cause? who knows. She certainly was not obese nor was she born with diabetes so I think its safe to say that processed foods could have triggered it for her.

Not all humans are alike much like dogs so.. I think that while some people can handle eating high-carb diets with little to no ill effects, and others become celiac, diabetic, or obese from high carb/processed diets, it really just depends on the individual. I myself, just recently became sensitive to carbs in the last 2 or 3 years. in my late teens and early twenties I was eating carbs each meal of the day and I was thin as a rail, and happy, healthy, and active as can be, that changed as I got into mid twenties. A lot of things started going down hill, I was having weight issues, thyroid issues, sleep issues, skin issues, etc etc. Cut out gluten and processed foods, and wham. I seem to be back to the way I was. So, they don't obviously agree with me too well anymore if cutting them out of my diet has cured a lot of my health issues. Guess thats just my anectdotal evidence for ya.


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