# very worried. need help.



## MarleyandMe (May 21, 2008)

everything was going perfectly well with my boder collie puppy untill this last past month. I have been keeping up with his training and his tricks and doing new ones and reinforcing everything just like I have been since I got him. He's got horrible bad habbits. And I know its not him. It's me. And I need to learn how to get him out of those habbits that make me want to rip my hair out. he's a smart dog. I know he is perfectly capiable of preforming what I am asking. I know what to do and how to do it, but its just not working and it's driving me nuts. When will this dog cooperate!!!

He hasn't peed in the house since he was less then four months old and now, for some reason, he's got this habbit of peeing in the house again. He tries to poo in the house and he just looks at me when I catch him and walks to the door. He knows when he needs to go out, but he just DOES it. He's eight months odl. I know he can hold it. ( i also brought him to the vets for a check up to see if he had any infections that made him not be able to. none.)
I also bring him out regulalry, hourly to hour and a half..ly.
He chews and rips up paper and boxes and books. Anything! Tissue paper, cards, it's in marleys mouth being torn apart. 
He jump son people when they enter the door. Which I've been working on for the last sevral months as well. 
He wont let me cut his nails he's bitten me.( one time his paw smacked me in the face during his attempt to get away and made me have a bloody nose.)
He gets aggressive when he doesn't get his way. If I hold his collar and tell him to wait while everyones walking in the house, he squrms and gets pissed off and goes to snap at me. 

He's a border collie and I'm not stupid I know he needs exsersize. And he gets tons of it. He's a smart dog, why is he being like this? 
he could probably use more exsersize yeah, but I can't over do it because he's still young. Mentall simulation is greatly involved. but nothing seems to be working. and I'mgetting so frustrated with him!!!!
Is he just being an adolsence? 
but the potty thing is really annoying me. I caught him trying to pee int he house sevreal times. and stopped him, briught him outside. 
I feel like he's 3 months old again!

Anything you guys can tell me that would help? He starts agility in 3 months and I don't want to go there with a dog that can't even pee where I want him to, never mind cooperate in a sporting even that requires his full cooperation.

><


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

He's a teenager  . Like all teens, he'll test the limits and be rebellious. He will outgrow it...when? I don't know. That depends on the individual dog. But just keep repeating to yourself.....he will outgrow it, he will outgrow it  . There's a reason that most dogs in shelters are about 8-9 months old.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Are you practicing NILF with Marley? Also it seems that he has too much freedom right now in the house. My dog is also 8 months old BTW. Haven't seen any changes, if anything she has gotten better and more obedient. Maybe something else is going on with Marley. Any changes in the household situation?


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## SophieOwner (Sep 20, 2008)

Good news: you're probably in his teenage years
Bad news: teenage years are just like human teenage years
Good news: they don't last as long as human teenage years
Bad news: a dog is most annoying between 6mo to 2yrs...3 depending on size and breed. (Mid-sized terriers, sheppard, working dogs will be immature and irratating beyond belief from approx. 8mo's to 1.5 years old)


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Do you remember what they told you in Puppy Kindergarten? All the things about housetraining, paying attention, jumping, sitting politely for petting, bite inhibition? Go back to the basics of puppy kindergarten.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Teenagers! Oy!

This can be the worst age for a pup, and smart, high energy pups will learn to push buttons you didn't even know you had. Continue to use the crate and double down on obedience--and exercise. More of everything...except freedom to be an outlaw.


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## MarleyandMe (May 21, 2008)

>< Marley is a border collie, and the vet told me a year to a year and a half for the maturing part. I knew he was going to be a stubborn butt but I didn't know that he was going to do the potty thing again! Back to the Basics for me! Ahhhhhh. >< at least then he was small!

Thank you! I will double down on the training and see if that helps.

NILF is like our bible. he doesn't get to do anything unless he does something to for me. Some peopl ein my faimly fial to see thatg as fair though. (grandpa...)

Nothing has changed. In the morning I bring him for a short powerwalk. He goes in the crate till i get home from school. I get home from school anoother, longer walk. I play with him in the house untill about 5 when i have to go to work. then my gram takes him out for the rest of the night.The days I don't have to go to work. (I only work 2 days a week.) I go over to my boyfriends house who has a HUGE yard. *takes up most of the street* and we play out there. ^_^ he's so funny when he plays.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Pretend he is a puppy again, he gets the equivilent treatment and freedoms as an 8 week old puppy. (basically, pretend he knows nothing and he gets absolutely no freedom at all, must be dragging a leash at all times, preferably connected to you, if you can't watch him crate him).


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

I have a 2 year old Border Collie. When she was a young pup she was the cutest thing. She was one of the easiest dogs to housebreak. Then a few months later…she turned into the spawn of Satan. She jumped, chewed anything including corners of my walls, growled at me and my other dog is we came within 2 feet of her bowl, you name it and she did it….

I stopped using the crate at 4 months because she hated it and BC’s do not do well in crates. (Don’t get me wrong – I’m a huge believer in crating dogs but I don’t think it’s a good idea for a BC. They are too energetic and you need to keep their minds busy, and not confine them to a crate.) 

She also started to have “accidents” in the house but I found that every “accident” she had a story behind it. BS’s are extremely vindictive. They are very smart and I have found there is motive behind their bad behavior. You just have to outsmart them. (– it’s not easy) when I stopped putting her in the crate, the “accidents” decreased greatly. She wasn't so spiteful for being stuck in a crate. She still does it on extreme occasions, mostly when I go out of town. (My dog sitter must think I don’t housebreak my dogs. ;-) 

To break the jumping habit, I had friend after friend stop by. I would tell them in advance to ignore her when they come through the front door, absolutely no eye contact! If she jumps, push her off and say “No Jumping” and not to give her any attention until she sits. I would also reinforce the “no jumping” and make her sit. It didn’t take long and now she sits whenever someone walks in the door.

BC’s are also very sensitive. I found that a stern voice works wonders! I also make her sit for everything. She doesn’t eat unless she sits for me to put her bowl down. She sits before she’s allowed outside. She sits for a treat, when people come into my house she sits. 

To break her growling I would get on the floor next to her bowl and slide it around, every growl I would say “No” is a loud stern voice. If she wasn’t paying attention to me I would tap her to get her attention. I would give her lots of petting when she was good. I eventually brought my other dog over and would take her bowl and slide it over to my other dog while making the BC sit and watch then slide it back to her. No more growling and I can take a bone, food, toy, anything away from her. My shepherd can also take toys, bones, food from her and neither growl at each other. 

To keep your paper towels and newspapers together make sure you give him lots and lots of toys! When you think you have enough – get more! Still to this day, if mine doesn’t have a lot of toys I’ll come home to paper chewed into a million pieces across my living room. 

The good news is, most will pass. Use a stern voice when correcting him or he will take advantage of you. Give him lots of jobs like hide toys and tell him to find them. Play a lot of fetch! Get him a big basket where he can keep his toys. I will go around the house and collect all of my dog’s toys and put them in the basket. Then she will take them all out one at a time and play with them. It usually keeps her occupied for a long time! She also returns toys to the basket. 

Just remember BC’s are very energetic, hyper and intelligent. (If I could bottle my BC’s energy there would be no need for oil or electricity!) As far as the growling and biting, if you don’t nip things in the bud they will get worse. Lots of BC’s end up in the shelter for biting and my BC pup was the worse nipper of any breed I’ve owned. Giving a BC a toy to chew when she nips will not work, they will learn quickly that they are rewarded for nipping! BC’s live for toys and all the loving (petting) they can get. They seek major attention and their nipping is usually to get your attention or to “keep you in line” which is instinctive of their herding skills. If you give them a chew toy when the nip they quickly learn – “wow – when I nip and I get a toy – COOL !” They also learn that it’s okay to nip to keep a toy.after all, they got it for nipping. Just think of children - if you have an unruly terror of a young boy, get him involved in sports to get his energy out - set some boundaries and be stern on the "broken rules" and they child turns around! BC's seek the same thing. 

BC need boundaries and they need jobs. They are not a dog that you just feed and let out, they do require work. The next few months are going to be nuts and I even said a hundred times to my dog, “It’s a good thing you are so damn cute!” In the end, it’s all worth it! At least I think so.


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## Mama_Papa (Nov 25, 2008)

Adelyn said:


> To keep your paper towels and newspapers together make sure you give him lots and lots of toys! When you think you have enough – get more! Still to this day, if mine doesn’t have a lot of toys I’ll come home to paper chewed into a million pieces across my living room.


I read somewhere that you shouldn't give your dogs more than 3-4 toys at a time because if there are a lot, they will think everything belongs to them, so limit it to 3-4. Are you saying have lots and keep switching them, or are you saying give them lots to play with at a time? Sorry to jump in on the thread but I'm always looking for advice too. Thanks.


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

Mama_Papa said:


> I read somewhere that you shouldn't give your dogs more than 3-4 toys at a time because if there are a lot, they will think everything belongs to them, so limit it to 3-4. Are you saying have lots and keep switching them, or are you saying give them lots to play with at a time? Sorry to jump in on the thread but I'm always looking for advice too. Thanks.


I think this is more of an "opinion" thing, if you don't think it's good to give more than 3-4 toys, go for it! 

Also, every dog is different. In this case we are talking about a BC puppy and from my own experience and from my friends that have BC's, you can never have enough toys. When my pup was chewing everything in her reach my BC owner friends said to "get more toys", (and chew bones) a lot more and guess what? It worked! It might not work on other dogs, it might not even work for another BC but it is a suggestion that has worked on mine and others I know that have BC's, especially at the chewing stage! If the original poster is pulling her hair out because her BC puppy is chewing everything as mine was, it's worth a try...don't you think? 

I think when a dog has a behavior issues there is never a textbook answer. (for instance - no more than 3-4 toys) I've owned several breeds over the years and never a BC. When my pup was chewing like crazy, (My other dogs never chewed everything in site like my BC did) I called my friends that owned BC's to find out what they did, I didn't ask someone who had a Jack Russell.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

Adelyn, I'm sorry to disagree but dogs are NOT vindictive and spiteful. You can crate border collies if that's what works for you. The key is to ensure they get enough exercise to handle snoozing in a crate sometimes.

Dogs are not humans. They don't get spiteful, vindictive, revengeful, etc. They are dogs.


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

myminpins said:


> Adelyn, I'm sorry to disagree but dogs are NOT vindictive and spiteful. You can crate border collies if that's what works for you. The key is to ensure they get enough exercise to handle snoozing in a crate sometimes.
> 
> Dogs are not humans. They don't get spiteful, vindictive, revengeful, etc. They are dogs.


We all have a right to our opinions!


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## Mama_Papa (Nov 25, 2008)

I wasn't giving that as firm advice or condridicting (sp?) you, I was just saying that was something I read and trying to make sure I understood what you were saying is all. Also agree that dogs have different personalities and even asking people with the same type of dog doesn't mean what they did will work for you either. 

I am a first time puppy owner as you may know and was just asking you to clarify to make sure I understood what you were saying.

I wish the OP luck with the biting issue.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Dogs, like people are individuals so generalities such as only giving 3 or 4 toys at a time fit in general but not always for specific dogs. I think it's a good rule to follow for most dogs (and for most kids actually). This way you can rotate toys and the dog has something "new" to play with every few days or weeks.


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## baird (Jan 9, 2009)

OMG... your dog is the alpha in your relationship. Do you disipline him. A dog needs to know who their master is, if they don't they will become it, and do as they wish. When he pees shove his nose in it and put him outside. for his nails, be patient and slowly teach him that its ok and its not going to hurt him. Such as play with his feet, and hold them. One thing with training is consistancy you have to remain consistant in the training process. Teenage year... ha. Sorry but honestly your dog needs disipline and you need to not be afraid of it. Yelling will not help your situation you need to speak firm, and disipine it. He chews something say, give him a time out in the kennel. Things like that are unacceptable.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

baird said:


> OMG... your dog is the alpha in your relationship. Do you disipline him. A dog needs to know who their master is, if they don't they will become it, and do as they wish. When he pees shove his nose in it and put him outside. for his nails, be patient and slowly teach him that its ok and its not going to hurt him. Such as play with his feet, and hold them. One thing with training is consistancy you have to remain consistant in the training process. Teenage year... ha. Sorry but honestly your dog needs disipline and you need to not be afraid of it. Yelling will not help your situation you need to speak firm, and disipine it. He chews something say, give him a time out in the kennel. Things like that are unacceptable.


PLEASE disregard everything this person said!!!!  

I feel very sorry for any dog owned by him


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## baird (Jan 9, 2009)

myminpins said:


> PLEASE disregard everything this person said!!!!
> 
> I feel very sorry for any dog owned by him


LOL... Your dogs are obviously very spoiled. Disipline works... I have owned several dogs, and all of them loyal, smart, obedient, and are very loved... and I am not a guy!


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

There's a difference between discipline and meanness. Shoving a dog's nose in its own pee is not discipline - it's nasty.

My dogs are not spoiled - they are very well behaved. I have no tolerance for spoiled animals or people.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Plus, forcing a dog to touch his own waste can make him "dirty", so that he may never be properly potty-trained. And it's cruel. Like rubbing a dirty diaper in a child's face. No reason to be cruel. Discipline means teaching, not cruelty.


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## unclearthur (Dec 8, 2008)

Growls and snaps at you? Forget the teenage syndrome stuff, you seriously need to gain this dog's respect now. If NILF is not enough you have to get more physical / dominant.

He should never show any signs of aggression towards you. Stamp this out now or you will have a lot more to worry about than agility training.

I have 3 words for you: The Dog Whisperer.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Adelyn said:


> We all have a right to our opinions!


Yes I will agree that we all have our right to our own opinions. In the real world dogs are not vindictive that is a people weakness not dogs. This is not an opinion it's a fact of life. When people read something about dogs being vindictive it may affect their training programs. Some people would then work in the revenge factor such as you did this to me, I will do this back to you. As I said above people definitely have the revenge/vindictive factor in their genes. In closing this too is just another person's opinion.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Yes I will agree that we all have our right to our own opinions. In the real world dogs are not vindictive that is a people weakness not dogs. This is not an opinion it's a fact of life. When people read something about dogs being vindictive it may affect their training programs. Some people would then work in the revenge factor such as you did this to me, I will do this back to you. As I said above people definitely have the revenge/vindictive factor in their genes. In closing this too is just another person's opinion.


Thank you!


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

This is a little off topic but the OP brought it up: agility at 11 months? Isn't that too young? We were told by an agility trainer to wait until the dog is about 18 months to avoid joint damage. Just posting in case this is true and the OP needs to wait a little longer.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Actually, 11 months isn't too young at all  We have a puppy agility program that starts at....8 weeks!

An 11 month old can do low jumps....8-12 inches depending on breed. A Border collie will generally jump 20, though there are some 16 and 24 inchers too (talking AKC).

There's no point waiting to train a dog in agility until 18 months and not start trialing until age 3 or 4. You can safely train a dog to agility obstacles at very young ages, and as they grow you increase the height of the obstacles.

/off topic


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Like rubbing a dirty diaper in a child's face.



you mean thats NOT how you potty train kids?


..sorry..couldn't help myself.


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## baird (Jan 9, 2009)

jbray01 said:


> you mean thats NOT how you potty train kids?
> 
> 
> ..sorry..couldn't help myself.


A baby going in a diaper is accepted and its supposed to do that, a dog going on your carpet is not accepted and they are not supposed to do it. I didn't mean shove the dogs face into his or her waste I just meant bring the dog back to where the mess is show him/her it (they know its not right) and say no. and put him/her outside. and when they do their business outside reward him/her


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I didn't mean shove the dogs face into his or her waste I just meant bring the dog back to where the mess is show him/her it (they know its not right) and say no.


The vast majority of us here disagree with this theory.

Dogs live in the moment and do not dwell on the past. That is what makes them better than humans.

If you catch the dog, scold and put outside? No catch? Clean it up and move on with your life.


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## Mudra (Nov 1, 2007)

I may just add, if you didn't catch the dog in the act of peeing and saw the pee later on, ROLL UP A NEWSPAPER.. HIT YOUR HEAD several times. That's your "discipline" for not keeping an eye on your dog.


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## Allie3985 (Jul 19, 2008)

There is a TON of literature that supports NOT rubbing a dogs nose in something to punish him/her. That is a really old school method. We are all entitled to our opinions but I would truly support the inclination that 8 months is a very tough age, especially for a BC, and to just be patient. Also you say that you are starting agility soon and although the first few classes might be super frustrating you will probably find that there is something about taking classes such as agility that really give your dog a lot of direction, discipline even if you are just doing it for fun. I really would bet that after about 4 weeks of agility class you will see tremendous improvement in the "at home" behaviour.



Mudra said:


> I may just add, if you didn't catch the dog in the act of peeing and saw the pee later on, ROLL UP A NEWSPAPER.. HIT YOUR HEAD several times. That's your "discipline" for not keeping an eye on your dog.


Haha! I love this comment! So true and so hilarious. I spank myself on a regular basis for my poor dog handling. 



Xeph said:


> Actually, 11 months isn't too young at all  We have a puppy agility program that starts at....8 weeks!
> 
> An 11 month old can do low jumps....8-12 inches depending on breed. A Border collie will generally jump 20, though there are some 16 and 24 inchers too (talking AKC).
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The perk of starting them young is that they usually haven't learned to be afraid of random noises and objects yet. It is much easier to teach young. You do have to be sure to jump very low and be extra careful with fragile puppy bodies.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Actually, 11 months isn't too young at all  We have a puppy agility program that starts at....8 weeks!
> 
> An 11 month old can do low jumps....8-12 inches depending on breed. A Border collie will generally jump 20, though there are some 16 and 24 inchers too (talking AKC).
> 
> ...


This is very good to know -- thank you! And I'm a little grumpy about the trainer (who has had several agility and obedience champs) who told us this 2.5 years ago. I think it could have really helped our dog to be involved in it at a much younger age. If I had thought about it/researched it a little harder I think I could have figured out that it's more about intensity. Never thought about doing itty bitty jumps. Oh well, I'm still learning! At this rate when I'm 90 whatever dog we have will get a great owner! That is if I can remember any of this stuff by then....Now where did I put that leash?


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

I agree with many of the posts about doggie teen years. Although the average age is 10-12 months when dogs hit this problem, I'm sure 8 months is close enough. Basically, there are these changes in hormones (even for fixed animals) that mess with brain chemistry.

If he's not neutered, you should do so. It will decrease his excitement levels and any aggression that may be popping up. 

In addition, keep doing the training. You may need to back off from where he was at and reteach some things.

However, most of all, it sounds like he needs more mental stimulation! Exercise isn't the only thing that wears dogs out, and border collies especially need a lot of mental exercise. Training, complicated games, and puzzle toys all would help. Alternate toys, so he never gets bored. People often buy a LOT of toys for their dogs and leave them out, and the dog gets bored with them all at once! Alternate by day which toys he gets so he's always interested. 

Finally, find a behaviorist (not just a dog trainer!) who focuses on positive reinforcement to help you out. It's usually best to give advice only after seeing the problem!

It sounds like the only biting is being done out of panic - clipping nails is a scary experience, and a hand grabbing for a collar can also be quite startling and scary. I doubt it has much to do with actual aggression or dominance so much as startle/fear response. You need to VERY SLOWLY desensitize your dog to having his collar reached for and his nails clipped. If he gets uncomfortable with what you're doing, you've gone too far. As much as possible, he should be choosing to do the right thing (let you handle his paws/collar), rather than you MAKING him put up with it.

Any animal that is forced to do anything will become resentful and aggressive. The last thing you want to do here is think "dominant" and try to control your dog, especially since he's already showing pre-aggression symptoms.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

WalkerDog said:


> I agree with many of the posts about doggie teen years. Although the average age is 10-12 months when dogs hit this problem, I'm sure 8 months is close enough. Basically, there are these changes in hormones (even for fixed animals) that mess with brain chemistry.
> 
> If he's not neutered, you should do so. It will decrease his excitement levels and any aggression that may be popping up.
> 
> ...


Some good stuff but,

*If he's not neutered, you should do so. It will decrease his excitement levels and any aggression that may be popping up.
*

This is a tad misleading as it will do the above to some dogs but definitely not all dogs. I sometimes hear the vets using this as a cure-all for problems. I tell people if it doesn't help the dog's problems it's surely not going to hurt the dogs. Were everybody to work their dogs 15 minutes a workout 3 times a week from 4 months to 3 years there would be nothing but a bunch of brag dogs running around and the world would be abetter place.


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Some good stuff but,
> 
> *If he's not neutered, you should do so. It will decrease his excitement levels and any aggression that may be popping up.
> *
> ...


Good point. I should not have phrased that in such black-and-white terms. It often helps, but no guarantees. However, as mentioned, neutering a dog won't hurt and can help not only with behavior problems, but possible improve health. There's no need to breed, with the many purebreds in rescues, and there's no need to not fix an animal if you're not breeding.

Thanks, wvasko!


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

wvasko said:


> In the real world dogs are not vindictive that is a people weakness not dogs. This is not an opinion it's a fact of life.


wvasko - Like I said, we all have a right to our opinions. Dogs CAN be vindictive. 

*Vindictive Defined:* disposed to seek revenge or intended for revenge;showing malicious ill will and a desire to hurt. 
*
Revenge Defined:*To inflict punishment in return for (injury or insult);retaliation; something done in vengeance; a retaliatory measure.

Here is an obvious example of a dog from my past. When I was just out of college and single I had a dog that use to sleep with me every night. I started to date a guy that didn't like dogs sleeping in the room let alone a bed. When he stayed over I closed the bedroom door leaving my dog out. Without fail I would wake up in the morning, open the door and find a pile of poop smack dab in front of the door. (Mind you she was an adult dog that never had so much as an accident.) She knew exactly what she was doing and she pooped in front of the bedroom door in retaliation because she was mad that I shut her out of the room. Did I spoil her by allowing her to stay in my room leading up to this. Yes! But the fact remains, she pooped out of retaliation because she wasn't allowed in the bedroom. (OMG - that sounds just like she was being vindictive)

That is just one example of a long list from years of owning many dogs. I see it between my current 2 dogs, my BC is very jealous of my GS. (I suppose you're going to tell me next that dogs don't get jealous either, isn't jealousy only a human weakness too?) and she can do some downright mean stuff to the GS when she's jealous. I call it vindictive, perhaps you can justify it as something else because you obviously know all the facts of life! You are such a dog expert and so quick to make sure you correct others when you think they post a mistake. What would this site do without you? Bless your heart!


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

No, dogs CANNOT be vindictive or seek revenge. You're anthromorphizing dogs. Dogs are not people.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Adelyn said:


> wvasko - Like I said, we all have a right to our opinions. Dogs CAN be vindictive.
> 
> *Vindictive Defined:* disposed to seek revenge or intended for revenge;showing malicious ill will and a desire to hurt.
> *
> ...


You can call that separation anxiety and resource guarding but not vindictive or vengeful. If you understood what your dogs were actually doing then the solution would have been obvious. And no dogs don't get jealous, unless you are wearing something nicer then they are .


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

adelyn
I'm sure not going to rain on your opinion, one thing I have learned is that you could get 10 people to view the same thing and you could have 10 different opinions on the same viewing. I base my opinion on years of being old school trainer that has used aversive's heavily when working dogs and if there was a vindictive problem I would probably been eaten up alive back in the early 60's. This does not mean that there are not some weird stuff that dogs are capable of doing I just question the reasons why.


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> And no dogs don't get jealous, unless you are wearing something nicer then they are .


Actually dogs DO get jealous! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sciencea...59416/Dogs-can-be-jealous-say-scientists.html

Of course anyone with more than one dog can already tell you that. You can give the same toy to 2 dogs and they want each others. If dogs didn't get jealous they wouldn't care what the other had. If you give one more attention the other gets upset.

***Offensive remark edited by moderator***

Dogs can't speak. A dog can't say to you "Dude, I don't like it when you leave me alone. I'm not happy about it. If you do it again, I'm going to throw a tantrum and chew everything in I can get my mouth on." 

So humans slap a fancy name to it and call it "separation anxiety" but the fact remains that a dog, who otherwise knows they would get into trouble for chewing, chews because they are left alone and they are not happy, they are being spiteful.

Maybe none of you have had any formal psychology class. I minored in psych and wrote a few papers on dog psychology. (I also did one on horses) 

Another example: Someone brings a baby into a house with a dog. Some dogs get very jealous and when they act out their jealousy or anger by bad behavior that is their way of being spiteful/vindictive. No - it's not sophisticated, they don't plan out a big scheme but we are talking about dogs.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Adelyn said:


> Actually dogs DO get jealous! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sciencea...59416/Dogs-can-be-jealous-say-scientists.html
> 
> Of course anyone with more than one dog can already tell you that. You can give the same toy to 2 dogs and they want each others. If dogs didn't get jealous they wouldn't care what the other had. If you give one more attention the other gets upset.
> 
> ...


There was already a discussion on this study. That's great you like to write papers but I'm not that smart and I can clearly see that the only thing the study and your situation proved is that dogs resource guard. Owners are their resource for everything so they will guard it or prevent access by others to it. Your situation can be solved if you did a little research on resource guarding.


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

wvasko said:


> adelyn
> I base my opinion on years of being old school trainer that has used aversive's heavily when working dogs and if there was a vindictive problem I would probably been eaten up alive back in the early 60's. This does not mean that there are not some weird stuff that dogs are capable of doing I just question the reasons why.


I respect that. Lord knows humans hate to give another animal credit for something they think they are ONLY entitled to. However, studies have been done in the last few years that prove dogs are capable of having complex emotions, jealousy, pride, shame, etc. If a dog can be jealous and they act out on that jealousy - that is, in fact, spitefulness. Granted, like I said in my previous post, they don't plan some elaborate scheme to "get you back" but they do have "signs of spitefulness" 

And again, not all dog's do. Some are just not that smart. Your icon picture is of sheperds. (very nice btw) many people will say dogs can't "reason" however it has been proven that GS's can "reason." I'm sure you have witnessed your dogs figuring something out that you've scratched you head and thought, "damn that dog is smart". 

My entire point to my first post is that when a BC has bad behavior there is something behind it that is causing it. BC's are very intelligent and also sensitive dogs and they react badly when they are not happy and motivated to work. It is them being spiteful because you locked them in a cage all day or left them in a room with nothing to play with - in my opinion - yes. 

If someone thinks that vindictive is defined as meaning a dog is not happy about something you did 2 days ago and they wait another few days to get you back, no, dog's don't have that capability. I agree with that. But they do have the ability to immediately act out anger or jealousy. Maybe vindictive isn't the right word.


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> There was already a discussion on this study. That's great you like to write papers but I'm not that smart and I can clearly see that the only thing the study and your situation proved is that dogs resource guard. Owners are their resource for everything so they will guard it or prevent access by others to it. Your situation can be solved if you did a little research on resource guarding.


"Resource guarding" is that another fancy name humans made up to deny another animal of having any emotion? 

Here's a quote from an article on "Resource guarding of humans"

>>Guarding People
Dogs may guard humans as resources. If you have more dogs than time, a dog who feels a deep need to be with you might try to push other dogs away to get the closest position for petting. This will become more of a problem if you push that dog away. If possible, keep that dog near you while you pet others. Then the dog feels more security and less need to try to push others away.<<

So, the article claims a dog can feel "insecure" (Then the dog feels more security -more security mean less insecurity. ) yet they can't feel "jealousy"? Doesn't jealousy come from insecurities?

How about "a dog who feels a deep need to be with you". Isn't "a deep need" something that sparks an emotion? 

Here's a clip of a "human emotion guide"
>>Nature developed our emotions over millions of years of evolution. As a result, our emotions have the potential to serve us today as a delicate and sophisticated internal guidance system. Our emotions alert us when natural human need is not being met. For example, when we feel lonely, our need for connection with other people is unmet. When we feel afraid, our need for safety is unmet. When we feel rejected, it is our need for acceptance which is unmet.<<

So if I understand what you are saying, humans have needs which react as emotions yet dogs can have "a deep need" but that couldn't possible cause an emotion because dog's aren't capable of emotions.

yeah - okay.......


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Adelyn said:


> I respect that. Lord knows humans hate to give another animal credit for something they think they are ONLY entitled to. However, studies have been done in the last few years that prove dogs are capable of having complex emotions, jealousy, pride, shame, etc. If a dog can be jealous and they act out on that jealousy - that is, in fact, spitefulness. Granted, like I said in my previous post, they don't plan some elaborate scheme to "get you back" but they do have "signs of spitefulness"
> 
> And again, not all dog's do. Some are just not that smart. Your icon picture is of sheperds. (very nice btw) many people will say dogs can't "reason" however it has been proven that GS's can "reason." I'm sure you have witnessed your dogs figuring something out that you've scratched you head and thought, "damn that dog is smart".
> 
> ...


Very interesting as our personal dog is a GWP and when I sidle up to give wife a hug or kiss on cheek she reacts immediately with barking and will actually do a nudging in between us so I can understand some jealousy. The interesting part is when a dog is put out of a room (for conversation's sake) the dog walks 5 ft away and a flea is biting him, he stops, he sits, he then scratches and then gets up and maybe 5 to 10 seconds have passed. Let's also add that a horn beeps outside. Now if the dog goes back and dumps outside your door because of something you have done to him. What does that do to the training methods that say a dog must be rewarded with a treat or an aversive done immediately to get the desired result in training or the dog will forget or not retain what the reward/aversive is for. I hope I have not got everybody confused with my rambling.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

You've completely confused me. Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Adelyn
I don't know many women that want to be a Dinosaur dog trainer and the hug/kiss of wife is the old fashion traditional wife (female gender)and with 90 breeds trained (of course I don't consider myself dog trainer any more, just a blacksmith that shapes/fixes the broken/wild dogs) I think I'm going to disappear from thread as I sense a fistfight brewing.


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## Adelyn (Dec 27, 2008)

wvasko said:


> The interesting part is when a dog is put out of a room (for conversation's sake) the dog walks 5 ft away and a flea is biting him, he stops, he sits, he then scratches and then gets up and maybe 5 to 10 seconds have passed. Let's also add that a horn beeps outside. Now if the dog goes back and dumps outside your door because of something you have done to him. What does that do to the training methods that say a dog must be rewarded with a treat or an aversive done immediately to get the desired result in training or the dog will forget or not retain what the reward/aversive is for. I hope I have not got everybody confused with my rambling.


Good point, however, because the door was closed, it is difficult to determine when the "dump" was done. Did she go downstairs - hang out on the couch for a while and then realize it wasn't as comfy as the bed. Head upstairs, see the door close and take a dump. Or did she do it just after I closed the door on her? She was a freakishly intelligent dog, also a GS and I'm not bs'ing you. She never had an accident in the house and she always did her dump when he stayed over and the door was closed. The relationship didn't last long. ;-)


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Andelyn, 
Writing a paper does not qualify you to make judgments on members of this, or ANY other site. Please refrain from making insulting remarks about our members.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Adelyn said:


> Actually dogs DO get jealous! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sciencea...59416/Dogs-can-be-jealous-say-scientists.html


Have you read any peer reviews on this? 



> Of course anyone with more than one dog can already tell you that. You can give the same toy to 2 dogs and they want each others. If dogs didn't get jealous they wouldn't care what the other had. If you give one more attention the other gets upset.


Jealousy is insecurity, fear, and anxiety when one being feels a *relationship* is *threatened* by another. If one dog prefers the toy he was not given, how exactly is that a threat to a relationship? 



> No offense but I will believe my own observations and Dr Friederike Range over a bunch of wannabe dogs whisperers on this site!


Do you believe in the law of parsimony?



> So humans slap a fancy name to it and call it "separation anxiety" but the fact remains that a dog, who otherwise knows they would get into trouble for chewing, chews because they are left alone and they are not happy, they are being spiteful.


In the previous statement you described how we shouldn't be anthropomorphic, and now you're being anthropomorphic. 



> Maybe none of you have had any formal psychology class. I minored in psych and wrote a few papers on dog psychology. (I also did one on horses)


No we're all a bunch of dummies who barley graduated elementary school. For someone who claims to be schooled in science, I'm not recognizing a practice of science. 



> Another example: Someone brings a baby into a house with a dog. Some dogs get very jealous and when they act out their jealousy or anger by bad behavior that is their way of being spiteful/vindictive. No - it's not sophisticated, they don't plan out a big scheme but we are talking about dogs.


What do you know about dogs and novelty? What is your experience with dog behavior and novelty?


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Adelyn said:


> "Resource guarding" is that another fancy name humans made up to deny another animal of having any emotion?
> 
> Here's a quote from an article on "Resource guarding of humans"
> 
> ...


If I started feeding your dog and walking your dog everyday, your dog will "deeply" need to be with me. I only took a class in psychology but I did stay at a holiday inn.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

No sense in arguing with a person that is no loger here.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Oh sorry, just noticed that. That was quick.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah, tends to be when a person starts hurling personal insults


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Adelyn said:


> I respect that. Lord knows humans hate to give another animal credit for something they think they are ONLY entitled to.


I actually don't think it's fair to the animal to put human emotions on them. A lot of dogs have been abused and wrongfully punished, because "they peed on the rug out of jealousy" when really they were just stressed out, couldn't hold it any longer, or weren't fully potty trained.

Dogs are INNOCENT creatures. I don't believe they are spiteful in any way. I believe only a human is capable of feeling such awful, hurtful, evil emotions such as jealousy, revenge, etc. I DO believe they have certain emotions, and that they are intelligent creatures, but being dogs, they have an entirely different culture, language, and way of thinking than we do. 

This is why I'd rather learn to speak their language rather than force my emotions on them. My relationship with my dogs improves greatly when I do this. My once leash-aggressive border collie mix became a perfectly well-behaved dog when I stopped trying to make her think like me, and instead started thinking like her. By thinking like a dog instead of a human, I was able to prevent any behavior problems in my corgi before they started.

If you will only believe a doctor or a scientist, then how about this well-renowned one?
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogger/4
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/why-did-he-do-it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTkYvn1HjrI

*Also, for the OP* with the unruly puppy, Dr. Ian Dunbar is giving away one of his books, "After You Get Your Puppy" for free online till the end of January. This book is a must have and may help you out. Download it here:
http://dogstardaily.com/training/after-you-get-your-puppy


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Cheetah

*Dogs are INNOCENT creatures. I don't believe they are spiteful in any way. I believe only a human is capable of feeling such awful, hurtful, evil emotions such as jealousy, revenge, etc. I DO believe they have certain emotions, and that they are intelligent creatures, but being dogs, they have an entirely different culture, language, and way of thinking than we do.*

That kinda says it all as I stated almost 50 years of work and if they were vindictive etc and more like people, I would have gone into another line of work. I always wanted to race Guppies.


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Very interesting as our personal dog is a GWP and when I sidle up to give wife a hug or kiss on cheek she reacts immediately with barking and will actually do a nudging in between us so I can understand some jealousy.


wvasko,

Interesting thing about this behavior is that it isn't actually jealousy. If two dogs were to act the way two hugging humans act, it would look like aggression to a dog. Dogs do a behavior called "splitting," where they try to break up a fight. That's probably what your dog is doing - she's distressed because the two of you are doing what appears to her to be aggressive behavior, so she's trying to calm you down and split you up. It's a really cool behavior! Check out this link about calming signals in dogs.

Also, I think what you're saying is that, if dogs are vengeful, they would need to remember the past, yet most trainers will tell you to use rewards/punishments immediately after the behavior, or the dog won't remember what he's getting rewarded/punished for. You're right! That's the reason most people don't believe dogs are vengeful - they don't think far enough back to hold a grudge. It's not that they don't have emotions - it's just that they don't live in the past.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Alyssa
Oh let me have some fun and cute stuff with my dog, Do I know dogs aren't really jealous of course. After a hard day scoopin-poop and pushing other dogs(training) around and having them push me around, I want to come in house and have fun like the amateurs do and spoil my dog and read stuff into her because it makes my wife and I laugh when the dog does silly stuff. Even old dog trainers reserve the right to be fruitcakes. 
PS 
What if all the experts are wrong and my dog is one of a kind and is really jealous.


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Alyssa
> Oh let me have some fun and cute stuff with my dog, Do I know dogs aren't really jealous of course....
> What if all the experts are wrong and my dog is one of a kind and is really jealous.


Ha! I guess it depends on what your goal is  If it's just for fun, no harm done! It's when someone's trying to do training that the "jealous" thing can cause problems. *laughs* My dog a while back did this, too... whether it was hugging or kids getting into fights. It's pretty wacky to watch!


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