# Correcting/training dog during his recovery?



## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi everyone! I adopted an year and a half Maltese, Halo, few weeks ago. He got abandoned along with a Shih-tzu by their owner. (My sis adopted the Shis-tzu.) However Halo wasn't pee wee pad trained so I have been trying to train him. He had been peeing on the pad all the time, until he got his castration few days ago. He started peeing elsewhere. At first I thought it's accidental but then I found out it's not. Like he would actually sniff the places before he pees. It is not marking either because it's a lot.

Another thing is, he bit my husband and a friend before when we were trying to check his teeth and ears. Usually my hubby would try to correct this behaviour. This morning my husband was touching his ear and he snapped. After he stopped, I thought to calm him by touching his neck which he usually likes it, and he bit me. I noticed his irritation and growling were longer than usual. Hubby was trying to "correct" him by Alpha rolling this time (although I don't believe Alpha-roll is necessary yet in this particular time.) Then we put him on a chair and let him stay there without able to go anywhere as he doesn't jump usually. He never barks, but he growls when he keeps getting annoyed by another dog, or if my hubby tries to check his teeth.

I've read about the post-surgical caring, how dogs may be irritated already because of the pain and discomfort, and that we should go easy on them. My question is, should we correct any unwanted behaviour during his recovery, or should we let him be for now until he is fully recovered? I'm afraid that if I let him be now, it will get carried on afterward.

Thanks a lot!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

When people do things like alpha rolling a dog for bad behavior, frequently what happens is that behavior gets worse. You've seen that already - he snapped at your husband, your husband escalated the situation and then YOU got bit. This dog is new to you. He doesn't know you. He doesn't have reason to trust you, and he's cranky and in discomfort from surgery. i would try to notice when he's not comfortable with handling (I'll bet if you really watch, he gives a number of signals before he snaps and bites) and stop before he has to "shout" to tell you to stop. My guess is, subtle body signals haven't worked. Growling hasn't worked. So, short of a bite, how's he supposed to tell you he feels like he needs you to stop? I suspect this may have been a pattern in his old home as well. Now, I'm not saying you need to just put up with this, or ignore it, or not handle the dog. I would say you need to train the dog that handling is often accompanied by treats, that you will not restrain him needlessly or handle him harshly (like alpha rolling him) and that you will acknowledge his small signs that he's not comfortable with what you are doing and stop before he feels like he has to make the signs really big because you're not paying attention. Look into TTouch, www.ttouch.com which is wonderful for desensitizing dogs to being handled, and doing so in a respectful way. By the way, the guy who popularized the whole "alpha roll" thing (Job Michael Evans) stated later that he wished he hadn't because it got so many people bit.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I completely agree!
- He's new to you, he's still learning to feel comfortable in your home, and around you.
- He's had surgery, is probably still in a bit of pain, and is irritable.
- He probably showed some body language that meant he was uncomfortable with the touching, but you didn't pay attention.

Dogs don't have many ways to communicate with us in ways that we can understand. So, we have to learn to watch their body language, and listen when they growl or snarl. I don't mean that we have to accept growling, should it continue, but occasional growling, when your dog is trying to tell you something, can be listened to, and then you can try to work on the behavior.

I know that he needs to become comfortable, and he needs to allow you to touch him, check his ears, teeth, etc. BUT, right after surgery is NOT the time to do any of that. That is something that can definitely wait until he's recovered. You've only had him for a few weeks, you have plenty of time to work on that.

My older dog, Harper, only bit once, the day after he was neutered. He hasn't bitten since. He was hurting, and grumpy.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Thanks for the comment. Yes we know to pay attention to signs when he's about to snap. My hubby works in a vet office, though he's not a trainer but he knows more than I do. In the past when Halo was trying to bite, we all saw the sign, his body was tense, and I could feel he's already agitated. He fidgeted and growled first. This morning when Halo knew I was awake, he was trying to get on bed so I let him. We weren't doing anything but just patting him. My hubby was patting him too and he didn't look away whatsoever. When my hubby touched his ear then he suddenly growled. (I was playing with his ear right before that too but he was fine with that...) We only said "stop" and weren't even yelling. I waited for him to stop, then touched his neck, that's when he bit me. Then we got up, he kept growling. My hubby took him off the bed and he kept growling, that's when he gave him the Alpha roll.

Anyway, my question is not about how to train Halo. I do usually train him with treat and gentleness. My question is whether or not to correct the behaviour during his recovery, at least just for his peeing anywhere instead of on the pad (which again, he had learnt peeing only on the pad before the surgery,) or just let him be?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Thanks for the comment. Yes we know to pay attention to signs when he's about to snap. My hubby works in a vet office, though he's not a trainer but he knows more than I do. In the past when Halo was trying to bite, we all saw the sign, his body was tense, and I could feel he's already agitated. He fidgeted and growled first. This morning when Halo knew I was awake, he was trying to get on bed so I let him. We weren't doing anything but just patting him. My hubby was patting him too and he didn't look away whatsoever. We my hubby touched his ear then he suddenly growled. We only said "stop" and weren't even yelling. I waited for him to stop, then touched his neck, that's when he bit me. Then we got up, he kept growling. My hubby took him off the bed and he kept growling, that's when he gave him the Alpha roll.
> 
> Anyway, my question is not about how to train Halo. I do usually train him with treat and gentleness. My question is whether or not to correct the behaviour during his recovery, at least just for his peeing anywhere instead of on the pad (which again, he had learnt peeing only on the pad before the surgery,) or just let him be?


I know you don't want training advice, but I'm going to give it anyway, because other people read these forums too. I never punish a growl. A growl is a warning, and if you take that away, the next thing is a bite. Dogs learn that low intensity communication (fidgiting, growling) don't work. But, by golly, you back off when he bites. I wouldn't try to train the dog not to growl or not to bite, I would try to change the situation for the dog to something that doesn't require him to feel like he needs to growl or bite. That means counterconditioning/desensitization. I would exercise really consistent and thorough supervision on the marking behavior, and possibly a belly band for a while (be sure it is kept clean and dry). That would keep him from being able to leave his scent nad save you on clean-up. I think I would also start doing some Nothing In Life is Free with him to help him adjust and learn house rules. I don't mind dogs on beds, but I sure wouldn't have a biting dog on the bed at this point. And, not all dogs love being "patted"


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> I know you don't want training advice, but I'm going to give it anyway, because other people read these forums too. I never punish a growl. A growl is a warning, and if you take that away, the next thing is a bite. Dogs learn that low intensity communication (fidgiting, growling) don't work. But, by golly, you back off when he bites. I wouldn't try to train the dog not to growl or not to bite, I would try to change the situation for the dog to something that doesn't require him to feel like he needs to growl or bite. That means counterconditioning/desensitization. I would exercise really consistent and thorough supervision on the marking behavior, and possibly a belly band for a while (be sure it is kept clean and dry). That would keep him from being able to leave his scent nad save you on clean-up. I think I would also start doing some Nothing In Life is Free with him to help him adjust and learn house rules. I don't mind dogs on beds, but I sure wouldn't have a biting dog on the bed at this point. And, not all dogs love being "patted"



Thanks! Maybe I should give a bit more info on how Halo usually acts. First of all I never want to stop him from growling either because it's a way for them to express and for us to know his emotional state. Ever since I brought him home, he follows me everywhere. If I sit on the chair he would want to get on my lap or lie down on the chair next to me. Same thing if I'm in bed. If I ignore him he would whimper. Most of the time if I just let him be, he will finally go to his bed, or just lie down on the floor next to me. If he's facing the other way he would keep turning back to look at me. If I get up to go somewhere he would immediately gets up and follow me. As for patting, he likes it, usually. When I caress his body he would usually roll over to show his belly. The only time that he had growled before was when there's another dog kept sniffing him right on his face, or when we were holding him to check his teeth or ears. That's all started when this Maltese shop lady was wiggling his baby tooth pretty vigorously once and he snapped. I was pretty upset at that lady because before that he was fine even when I cleaned his teeth! >=( But, what's done is done. I'll have to slowly work on that later.

So, none of the other time he would growl or bite. The only thing he always seems to want is to be close to people and food. I agree, right now, I will not let him be on my bed anymore until maybe later. It's gonna be a little hard because my bed is the only place I can rest or even sit on, and every time when I get on bed he will come and whine to be up there. I usually would ignore him sometimes, but since he has his stitches, I don't know if he keeps trying to reach the bed will do anything to his wound. The funny thing is if I lie or sit on the floor with him, he would walk away... LOL!

I've already stopped all the training at this moment. I still give him a little treat once in a while (not for training) since he's not really eating much right now. I don't mind cleaning up after him, and I usually de-scent where he peed before. I thought about using the waist band, but I am not home during the day (or I wouldn't know he pees if I'm sleeping at night,) and if it get wet, it might make the wound infected.

There is so much thing I can do, I just don't know if I should do it right now due to his post-surgery... Just right before I went back home to check on him. He was again peeing on this new spot. I don't believe it's marking because he hasn't peed the whole morning, and it was a big puddle.

Besides peeing there are other things that he does differently too, in spite of being in a new home. Like he doesn't sleep in his own bed anymore, he would go sleep around, and even take over my other dog's bed in the living room... I wish to know if it's all because of the post-surgical discomfort, and that he will go back to normal after recovery...

Sorry for the long post.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Neutered a few day ago and is a tad cranky, people and dogs heal at different speeds, to say nothing about high and low pain thresholds, also what if something is not right with the neutering, low grade infection etc. I'm in pain just thinking about getting alpha rolled a few days after being neutered. 

Now you have only had the dog a few weeks and only doG knows what type of life he had before. I would think probably not a good one if the owner dumped the 2 dogs. I have never understood the rush to neuter/spay with a brand new dog, introducing pain to a new family member. But that's just me. Almost 50 yrs training dogs and I've never alpha-rolled a dog.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

By the way regarding "backing off when a dog bites", my husband thinks differently. He said if you back off, in will only show the dog that you are scared and he knows he wins by that, so the next time he will just do it again. I agree and disagree. I wouldn't back off but I won't go further at the dog either cuz it might only instigate the dog more. I do believe Alpha rolling will be needed in some extreme situation, but it shouldn't be executed easily. However, I don't think it's good for me to interfere when my hubby is "correcting" the dog. I see them (both of my dogs) kept looking at me as if they were asking for help... But I'm afraid it will have an negative effect if I stop my hubby at that moment. I spoke to him about that but we just have disagreement on that. What should I do next time if that happen?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

You need to stop thinking about it as "correcting" him. Unless you really have some mad skills, corrections rarely accomplish what we intend them to and from what I gather by your assessment of things, I'm pretty sure you don't have mad skills yet. 

The smarter method is to become proactive in preventing mistakes. If you know he might pee, then you need to manage the situation so that he doesn't get the opportunity to pee inside. That usually means restricting his access to a small area of the house with a leash tethered, this way you can always keep an eye on him and immediately take him out if he shows signs of getting ready to pee.

As for the training - you are always training, whether you intend to or not. The dog is constantly learning new things everyday, 24/7, so every moment is training. He's learning everything about you every single moment of his life.

BTW, in my opinion, vets are among my least favorite people for handling dogs. They operate on a time schedule and force dogs to do things beyond what they are comfortable with. They're not behaviorists or trainers.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Neutered a few day ago and is a tad cranky, people and dogs heal at different speeds, to say nothing about high and low pain thresholds, also what if something is not right with the neutering, low grade infection etc. I'm in pain just thinking about getting alpha rolled a few days after being neutered.
> 
> Now you have only had the dog a few weeks and only doG knows what type of life he had before. I would think probably not a good one if the owner dumped the 2 dogs. I have never understood the rush to neuter/spay with a brand new dog, introducing pain to a new family member. But that's just me. Almost 50 yrs training dogs and I've never alpha-rolled a dog.


Ah, it didn't cross my mind that it was wrong to have him neutered this soon. I did this with the checkup and vaccine together. We thought to do it sooner because he's not a puppy anymore.

I really wish I could also find out what kind of life he had before too! One thing I noticed is that his eating habit. When I put food in the bowl and show him the bowl (whether to put the bowl toward him or just on the floor), he would keep backing away. But if I feed him with my hand he would gulp it in. I try to slowly feed him with my hand closer and closer to the bowl. He would then pick up some food from the bowl and run away, come back, pick up another piece and run away. Or sometimes he will just stare at the bowl, at me, and at my hand, but not eat, and I'll have to feed/lure him to the bowl again. Eventually he will eat, but it always takes a while for me to feed him at first. I even put in some of his favourite food like carrots and peas, same thing. But if the food is in my hand or on the floor, he'll eat it at no time.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> You need to stop thinking about it as "correcting" him. Unless you really have some mad skills, corrections rarely accomplish what we intend them to and from what I gather by your assessment of things, I'm pretty sure you don't have mad skills yet.
> 
> The smarter method is to become proactive in preventing mistakes. If you know he might pee, then you need to manage the situation so that he doesn't get the opportunity to pee inside. That usually means restricting his access to a small area of the house with a leash tethered, this way you can always keep an eye on him and immediately take him out if he shows signs of getting ready to pee.
> 
> ...



I kept saying "correcting" is for lack of a better word. In the past when he needed to pee, like when he suddenly left my room, I would follow him quietly, but as soon as he saw me he would turn around to me and not pee. We tried to put him inside a small area with pee wee pad in it and wait for a long time for him to pee, he just ended up lying or sleeping on it. I can not monitor him when I'm at work or when I'm sleeping (like the past few times when he peed elsewhere.)

Like I said, he had been peeing on the pad (only at home though but still not at my work) for the past 2 weeks. But ever since the surgery, he started peeing anywhere. I usually take him out a lot for him to release, but since it's after the surgery, I don't want to take him out yet. So in your opinion, what is the best for me to do now?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Personally I don't like the idea of pee pads. I always felt like it would be too easy for the dog to generalize peeing inside the house, plus my dog's aim is +/- 3ft of target. I don't have experience with pee pads, so I can't comment on pee pad training.

For times when you can't monitor him, you'll have to restrict him to a small area like a crate or play pen. You said that he won't pee on the pee pad when he's confined to a small area. That means he's house trainable; he naturally doesn't want to soil his living quarters. The idea is to confine him to a small area and gradually increase the size of the area so that he generalizes the entire house as his living quarter. 

Why are you concerned about taking him outside after surgery? It doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> Personally I don't like the idea of pee pads. I always felt like it would be too easy for the dog to generalize peeing inside the house, plus my dog's aim is +/- 3ft of target. I don't have experience with pee pads, so I can't comment on pee pad training.
> 
> For times when you can't monitor him, you'll have to restrict him to a small area like a crate or play pen. You said that he won't pee on the pee pad when he's confined to a small area. That means he's house trainable; he naturally doesn't want to soil his living quarters. The idea is to confine him to a small area and gradually increase the size of the area so that he generalizes the entire house as his living quarter.
> 
> Why are you concerned about taking him outside after surgery? It doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


I usually took him out around 4 times a day for walk/pee/poop before since I took him to work, and he still peed and pooped inside the house. The reason I want to pad train him was for the time when he needs to go inside the house (like when I'm at work or when we are sleeping.) It happened once that I walked him before going into the office, but he just walked toward the office direction without stopping, and as soon as he got into the office he pooped, not on the pad... >.>

I just read about how we should give the dog as much rest and as little work it should after surgery. I live on the 3rd floor with all stairs. And they told me not to bring the dog out yet until a bit later to prevent the wound get infected (he got neutered on the past Monday.) I tried the clean the wound once with water and gauge but he didn't see to feel comfortable, so I don't know if it's a good idea to let him out then clean his wound so often that he might get frustrated when cleaning...


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Oh yeah, when he was in my office with me, I had a tray with pee wee pad on too, but it's not confined. I also tried to teach him to pee on the pad by putting him on it when I thought he needed to pee, same thing, he would just ended up sitting/lying/sleeping on it. 

At home, after the surgery, whenever I caught him peeing on the pad, I praised him and gave him a treat too, yet he still just peed anywhere. I know it takes a lot of patience to train a dog, my concern is just should I do the same during recovery...


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

This looks like an excellent resource for indoor potting training - 
http://www.thehousebreakingbible.com/training/indoor-potty-training.htm


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> This looks like an excellent resource for indoor potting training -
> http://www.thehousebreakingbible.com/training/indoor-potty-training.htm


Thank you so much!

In a way you could say that Halo is crate trained because he never potty in our room where he sleeps. Since he has been peeing on pad, (and he started learning to poop on pad too although he misses a little since he poop-walks, but he knows where to go now...) I really hope that his peeing anywhere is just temporary due to his surgery. He still pee on pad as well, just not every time like how he used to. I'll be patient. =)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I do believe Alpha rolling will be needed in some extreme situation,


You will have to let us know how that turns out.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

wvasko said:


> You will have to let us know how that turns out.


I don't know, it's just how I feel, but I don't mean it for any dog and any time. I understand there are many people think it does not work and are against it. Cesar Millan did it, but seemed like he only did it once or twice when the dog was totally in the red zone and blocked out everything else. I am not a trainer and I don't know anything, but I believe he didn't use it to correct a problem, just to force a dog to calm down as there's no other way to take the dog out of the zone.

Will I do it? No. I don't think Halo's, or my other dog, Stewie, need it. Besides, I believe only certain people can do it right. I don't think I have that authority and assertiveness to do it correctly, and neither does my husband. And when it's executed wrong, it will only agitate the dog more instead. Hubby also did it once on Stewie, he did not calm down but was just frightened. (I almost wanted knock my hubby out!) He was generally a very fearful dog and anti-social. My sis adopted him for my dad about 4 years ago. Later on she moved out. I used to visited him a lot and out of everyone he liked to be around me the most. A year ago, my hubby and I moved into my dad's place. At first Stewie would still followed me around a little, though it's not as playful and friendly as before (he is around 13 years old), but he would play with me and my hubby. To me, my hubby's way of discipline is not firm but a little harsh (i.e. he yells. Being firm doesn't have to be loud, imo.) Plus the way he "played" with him. Slowly I feel Stewie was getting more and more resentful/frightened by him, and now he doesn't even really be around with me either.

I start seeing Halo is afraid of him as well. Maybe I should get rid of my hubby... But don't get it wrong, he does not abuse them.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Thanks! Maybe I should give a bit more info on how Halo usually acts. First of all I never want to stop him from growling either because it's a way for them to express and for us to know his emotional state. Ever since I brought him home, he follows me everywhere. If I sit on the chair he would want to get on my lap or lie down on the chair next to me. Same thing if I'm in bed. If I ignore him he would whimper. Most of the time if I just let him be, he will finally go to his bed, or just lie down on the floor next to me. If he's facing the other way he would keep turning back to look at me. If I get up to go somewhere he would immediately gets up and follow me. As for patting, he likes it, usually. When I caress his body he would usually roll over to show his belly. .


Really and truly, I thnk there are some stickies on this forum on Nothing in Life is Free. If you can't find that, do a web search and lots of info will come up. While I don't buy into the whole dominance and alpha theory stuff (including alpha rolls - you're just escalating a bad situation) I do think dogs need boundaries and rules. If you don't give them such, they have no idea when they are crossing a line and what is and is not allowed. It sounds to me like this little dog is well on his way to being spoiled something awful, with occasional punishments (from your husband) for breaking rules nobody has explained to him. It's not an uncommon problem, especially with small dogs. Dogs don't want to be in charge, and they aren't very good at it. But hey, somebody has to make the rules. If you won't, the dog has to. Spoiled dogs aren't happy dogs. Dogs without consistency and training tend to be confused and make lots of mistakes.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> I don't know, it's just how I feel, but I don't mean it for any dog and any time. I understand there are many people think it does not work and are against it. Cesar Millan did it, but seemed like he only did it once or twice when the dog was totally in the red zone and blocked out everything else. I am not a trainer and I don't know anything, but I believe he didn't use it to correct a problem, just to force a dog to calm down as there's no other way to take the dog out of the zone.
> 
> .


I don't have NG and don't make a habit of watching Cesar Millan. The one time I did see him roll a dog (Shadow - big northern type dog? mebbe wolf hybrid?) the dog was "calm" because he'd had his air cut off long enough that his tongue was blue.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

There's such a huge difference between a calm dog and a shut down dog. Cesar Millan doesn't really get that and neither do people who truly believe alpha rolls are calming to dogs. A dog that has been alpha rolled is terrified, confused, and possibly in pain, therefore they don't move because they are terrified that you are going to kill them because "in the wild" a dog won't pin another dog unless they intend to kill them for things like stealing a mate or taking their carcass, etc. These dogs shut down in hopes that if they show they are helpless and mean no harm, you won't kill them. A shut down dog is also incapable of learning anything so you're just temporarily suppressing the "bad" behavior, you're not teaching them what the "good" behavior you want in it's place is. 

On the other hand, a calm dog is a dog that is completely comfortable and secure in its' environment. A lot of people have commented on my dog Hudson being "dominant" when in fact he is just really relaxed, calm, and confident. He's not afraid that I'm going to hit, strangle, or roll him for sniffing dog food bags in the pet store or whining at me because he REALLY wants to say hi to the dog across the store. IMO, a dog doesn't have to show no behavior to be calm, they just have to be in a state of mind where they are responsive to commands quickly and thoroughly and not agitated by things in the environment that make them nervous.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Actually I don't know if he used that to "calm" or to make the dog giving in to a at least controllable situation in which you can proceed to the next stage. A shut down dog is still tense if I'm not wrong, but he did show that the dog was pinned then later on it relaxed then he let go. I'm sure every dog trainer/whisperer is different and they all have their own way of handling dogs. While some do not agree with Cesar Millan, I recalled there were owners who claimed that they had hire other trainers but still not able to help the dog, and Cesar did. Either way, there's always pro and con.

I would very much like to know about how do you help with the situation where the dog is in the red zone and won't come out no matter what you do, and what will you do if your dog just bit you or someone else? Do you just then keep standing there staring at him and let it keep barking/growling at you? Do you just walk away then and let him think he can fear you now buy biting? I need to learn. ^^


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

I have a biter.. he bit my husband a few times in a few different scenarios (4 or 5 times when my husband grabbed his collar, 1 or 2 times when he leaned over my dog, and once when he had to get an ant trap out of my dog's mouth) and each time my husband did just walk away from the dog or calmly put the dog in his crate and left to calm himself. This dog had all of his stress signals beat and burned out of him using cigarettes, so if a man was making him uncomfortable, he went straight for the bite. No growl, no anxiety, no stiffening. We didn't realize there was a problem until my 9th month of pregnancy when I wasn't able to handle him myself so my husband took over most of his handling. We solicited the help from a trainer who has written books about training aggressive dogs using gentle and nonaversive methods. Right now, we're focusing on teaching Brody that calming signals such as growling are fine and will work every single time, and desensitizing/counterconditioning Brody to things that make him uncomfortable (touching, leaning over him, reaching in his mouth, etc.) If you treat aggression with aggression, you're going to find yourself in a horrible cycle and will find yourself using harsher and harsher methods to get your dog to stop aggressing. The best thing in the world to do is to get your dog used to whatever it is that is freaking him out very gradually and highly rewarding the behavior you want. For example, with the little problem of Brody biting my husband when his collar was grabbed, we started off rewarding Brody when he let my husband reach towards him and not even touch him while remaining calm. After a while we progressed to him just touching Brody's neck very gently. Then we went to my husband hooking a finger under the collar. Then we went to husband holding collar but not putting any pressure on collar. Final step will be husband holding collar and moving to put a little pressure on collar, but we aren't quite there yet. We've been working on this for all of 8 days, and already made it this far. 

A tense dog is a dog that still thinks it has a chance of escape. I wouldn't call a dog that is still tense completely shut down. Give it a few more seconds of being pinned and it will eventually relax. Remember, the dog thinks you are trying to kill it when you pin it down, so they will try to be as limp and non-threatening as possible in hopes that you change your mind.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> Either way, there's always pro and con.


Yes, this is correct. The pros of aversive training methods are that they gain fast results. The cons are the potential to create an unpredictable dog and fear issues. 




> I would very much like to know about how do you help with the situation where the dog is in the red zone and won't come out no matter what you do, and what will you do if your dog just bit you or someone else? Do you just then keep standing there staring at him and let it keep barking/growling at you? Do you just walk away then and let him think he can fear you now buy biting? I need to learn. ^^


The rationale that the dog will all of a sudden become a chronic biter if you just walk away is not quite accurate. Over time, given enough reps, the dog may eventually learn to deal with a situation by biting, but specific things have to happen enough times for the dog to learn that. Nipping once or twice is not enough to make the behavior strong. 

The term "red zone" is just a label. There's no universally accepted definition for a red zone dog, it's just a term Millan popularized to bolster his credentials and boost his ratings. There are a few ways to gently deal with what we term "aggressive" behavior, as I see it.
1) Do nothing and let the dog aggress. The dog learns the behavior achieves nothing and eventually gives it up. You will need to set this up so that you do not get hurt.
2) Teach an alternate behavior that is incompatible with aggressive type behavior.
3) Slowly desensitize/counter condition the dog to the provoking stimulus.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Actually While some do not agree with Cesar Millan, I recalled there were owners who claimed that they had hire other trainers but still not able to help the dog, and Cesar did. Either way, there's always pro and con.


I know he claims that. I'm not sure I believe it. I suppose I should be happy that I get paid to fix the dogs who suddenly developed serious issues when their poor clueless owners started trying to emulate CM. But yeah, when you choke a dog out, he's no longer in any condition to aggress you. 



Ditch13 said:


> I would very much like to know about how do you help with the situation where the dog is in the red zone and won't come out no matter what you do, and what will you do if your dog just bit you or someone else? Do you just then keep standing there staring at him and let it keep barking/growling at you? Do you just walk away then and let him think he can fear you now buy biting? I need to learn. ^^


There is no such thing as a "red zone" That's teevee trainer psychobabble. There's under threshold and there's over threshold. The dogs CM has on his show look like they are "red zone" beause he doesn't give them any choices. If the dog is over threshold he can't learn, and you need to find a way to get him under threshold so he can. Did you catch the episode where CM is working with the GSD who's over-interested in a cat and never (once) mentions that the reason the dog suddenly avoids the cat is because he is zapping it with an ecollar?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

In case you are having a hard time believing this stuff, here is a counter conditioning video where a JRT attacks people who blow in his face. Instead of going all alpha, Sophia uses treats to condition the JRT to accept blowing. You will see how easy and effective it is, plus there is minimal stress on the dog.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

I've seen a lot of good responses, and want to add a bit of support to them. 

Please, please, don't _ever _alpha-roll this dog again. The poor guy was abandoned, which can be even more traumatic for a dog than a human. He's also just come out of surgery. Think for a moment what you'd be like if the bank took your house and you got hurt while moving into a new place, and your husband kept poking at you when you just wanted to get some sleep. Throw on top of that a gripping case of laryngitis, which leaves you unable to just tell your husband he's bugging the crap out of you, or possibly causing some pain by accident. You'd still be far up the scale from your dog, who can't really understand what's going on, and can't just get up and leave. If you take a dog, scared and traumatized by abandonment, hurt from surgery, and try to 'correct' him, you might cause permanent psychological damage. 

Now, I'll expand on the previous plea - don't ever alpha roll any dog, ever. Dogs are not wolves, and even wolves only rarely do this. Teaching a dog to listen to you because they're scared to death of you isn't the way to create a good relationship. Corrections and alpha rolling will frighten and antagonize your dog, and damage their trust in you. A lot of people seem offended by the idea of offering rewards to their dogs, or negotiating with them in any way. Why is this, I wonder? Pretty much every relationship we grow up with and carry through our lives is a series of give and take situations. I've found that I can either take a 'my dog will obey or else' approach, or I can try to understand what my dog sees when I do something, so we can communicate better. Here's an example:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<An alternate me> I've watched Cesar Milan and learned about classic dog training, so when I see my trash all over the place and glare at my dog, his guilty look says it all. I swat him and he hunkers even lower. I get so angry, because he's done this before, and obviously knows he shouldn't. I yell and toss him outside, and hope this time he gets the message.

<the dog> The trash had so many good smells, and I was bored, so I pulled it out and spread it around to inspect. There were many good things to smell and chew on. 

20 seconds later...

Interesting, smelly items are all over the floor. I'm sure glad they are, because it's fun to play with them. They're kind of like the things I smell in the bucket-thing, which seems to be mostly empty now. Hmmm.

3 hours later...

My human just came home, but isn't happy. Body tense, hard eyes - something is very wrong. I'll lower my head and look away to try and calm the situation down. Uh-oh, my human is really angry at something, and is coming my way. I lower myself even more to calm them down. Ouch! My human smacked me and is yelling and pointing at the stuff on the floor. Yes, it's good stuff. I wag my tail to agree, but my human gets even angrier and I lay flat down. I'm so afraid. Why is my human doing this. Doesn't he see I'm trying to submit? Maybe he isn't going to stop. Maybe he means to kill me. Then I'm outside. I usually like it outside, but my human put me here because he's angry. Is outside a bad place after all? 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's just one of the many ways you can end up with serious misunderstandings with your dog. Think of how much heartache is caused by misunderstandings between humans, and we talk the same language (within a region, mostly). Especially if you take on a rescue, you need to take the time to really understand what's going on with them. I'd highly recommend "The Other End Of The Leash". Great book, by a woman who studies animal behavior not only from a dog owner's perspective, but scientifically.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> We solicited the help from a trainer who has written books about training aggressive dogs using gentle and nonaversive methods.


What books? I'm always on the lookout for good ones I haven't read yet.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Thanks qingcong for that video, and Lindbert for the detail about you dog, as well as everyone's comment and suggestion. I am all for the positive, gentle training, desensitizing, and counterconditioning. I am going to talk to my husband to stop what he has been doing thinking that is right, and will try that counterconditioning method.

When I got home tonight, I found Halo was sleeping in my other dog's, Stewie, bed, which he has been doing lately (again, after the surgery.) I put his own bed on the same spot and put the Stewie's bed away from it, and Halo returned to the same spot with his own bed. I do not wish him to take over Stewie's bed since Stewie has been in this house for over 4 years. I will need to figure something out to stop him for taking over the spot.

After he's awake he started following me back into the bedroom. Then he went right outside of the bedroom to poop, another new spot, and he knew to poop on the pad before. I immediately put him back on the pad, picked up the poop, showed him, and put the poop on the pad and point at the poop on the pad. I don't know if he gets what I'm trying to say. My friend did the same thing to her dog and she learnt to pee and poo on pad. Hopefully if I do it enough Halo will get it.

As for the growling/biting issue, to sum up, besides trying the counterconditioning, what I should do is just walk away and ignore him even though he comes back to me, so that he will learn nothing has accomplished if he growls or bites, correct? Most of the time when he growls/bites is only when we try to clean his ear or brush/check his teeth. In that case I will have to desensitize him first right? 

One thing I don't know is how far back dogs actually remember. Like if I ignore him for growling, will he relate that to his growling/biting like 5, 10 mins ago?

As for the "red zone", it's just a word that represents the most focused aggression state of mind, I guess. I thought there are different levels of aggression, and there's always an ultimate one. Like when Halo knows I have treat in my head, his mind is all about the treat and he would do anything I want to get it. He is so focus that he would sit when I say down, and if I don't give him the treat, he will then goes down. Basically he would try on everything I taught him before to see which one he gets the treat, regardless of what my command is. So I thought that's because his focus was actually all on the food when I trained him and I don't even know if he actually knows the different between each command.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> One thing I don't know is how far back dogs actually remember. Like if I ignore him for growling, will he relate that to his growling/biting like 5, 10 mins ago?
> 
> As for the "red zone", it's just a word that represents the most focused aggression state of mind, I guess. I thought there are different levels of aggression, and there's always an ultimate one. Like when Halo knows I have treat in my head, his mind is all about the treat and he would do anything I want to get it. He is so focus that he would sit when I say down, and if I don't give him the treat, he will then goes down. Basically he would try on everything I taught him before to see which one he gets the treat, regardless of what my command is. So I thought that's because his focus was actually all on the food when I trained him and I don't even know if he actually knows the different between each command.


Their memory range is about 5 seconds. As I understand it, dogs have a sort of 'image' memory, where they associate feelings with situations. That's why counter-conditioning works so well. Others will probably have better input on the growling/biting than I can give. I've had dog-dog aggression issues I've successfully handled, but none of my dogs has ever growled or bit at me, except in play. I do tend to ignore bad behaviors of all kinds. I've found that dogs dislike being ignored more than just about anything. It's how I took care of the jumping up issues that plagued me for a long time. An idea I'll throw out is to have some treats on hand that he really likes. If he growls, ignore it and don't pursue what you were doing that caused the growl. As soon as he calms down, calmly praise him and give a treat. This will associate a good feeling with being calm around you. Don't push this too hard, though. By that I mean try not to regularly cause situations in which he feels the need to warn you off if at all possible. Also, don't necessarily wait for him to growl first. If he's sitting happily, praise and treats should follow. My personal philosophy is never to miss a chance to praise good behavior. Many people get caught up in preventing bad behavior, but inb my experience, the best way to do this is to encourage good behavior.

Don't sweat the red zone stuff. It's just semantics, and a lot of people like to argue endlessly on word usage. But sometimes the words are important. In this case, 'red' is indicative of anger or aggression, which isn't entirely accurate here. 'Threshold' is a much more accurate term. It just means that your dog has reached a level of excitement (good or bad) that inhibits their ability to respond as you'd prefer. When training counter-conditioning, it's very important not to push your dog past this threshold. If your dog is afraid of the vacuum, for instance, you wouldn't turn it on right next to them and try to give them a treat, unless you really didn't want to succeed. You'd keep them far enough from it that they lightly tense, but aren't seriously agitated. Over time you move closer to the point of stress, as the dog's tolerance increases.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Both of my dogs actually never growled at me nor bit (except this morning when my hubby triggered it) so I don't know how to deal with such situation. While I'm not for any physical punishment, it just came up to my mind that it's like with kids. In the western countries people are actually against and even forbid any types or degrees of physical punishment. My 3rd grade teacher friend does not use red pen to make correction because it's "traumatizing", and the school forbids giving a child time-out. But in most of the Asian countries, physical punishment is usual. My sis and I grew up with it, as with a lot of other kids. And we all grew up fine, morally disciplined. Not trying to defend CM or any classic trainers, but can we really say it's all wrong? There are people who grew resentful toward their parents for punishment, but a lot more who grew up well behaved. I've seen some kids in America who will talk back to the teachers/parents pretty badly because they know they don't get punished for whatever they do, while there are also a lot of people are well raised without punishment. So now with dogs, I've seen people who did use punishment and their dogs did learn and didn't turn out to be fearful. What is really right and what's wrong?


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

wil.wish said:


> Their memory range is about 5 seconds. As I understand it, dogs have a sort of 'image' memory, where they associate feelings with situations. That's why counter-conditioning works so well. Others will probably have better input on the growling/biting than I can give. I've had dog-dog aggression issues I've successfully handled, but none of my dogs has ever growled or bit at me, except in play. I do tend to ignore bad behaviors of all kinds. I've found that dogs dislike being ignored more than just about anything. It's how I took care of the jumping up issues that plagued me for a long time. An idea I'll throw out is to have some treats on hand that he really likes. If he growls, ignore it and don't pursue what you were doing that caused the growl. As soon as he calms down, calmly praise him and give a treat. This will associate a good feeling with being calm around you. Don't push this too hard, though. By that I mean try not to regularly cause situations in which he feels the need to warn you off if at all possible. Also, don't necessarily wait for him to growl first. If he's sitting happily, praise and treats should follow. My personal philosophy is never to miss a chance to praise good behavior. Many people get caught up in preventing bad behavior, but inb my experience, the best way to do this is to encourage good behavior.



Question about giving treat, whether it's training or encouraging good behaviour. I don't know how much and often to give, because I don't know if giving too much will make the dog not wanting to eat his food, or if he does, he will become fat because I'm giving too much treat on top of his meal?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Please, please, don't ever alpha-roll this dog again. The poor guy was abandoned, which can be even more traumatic for a dog than a human. He's also just come out of surgery. Think for a moment what you'd be like if the bank took your house and you got hurt while moving into a new place, and your husband kept poking at you when you just wanted to get some sleep. Throw on top of that a gripping case of laryngitis, which leaves you unable to just tell your husband he's bugging the crap out of you, or possibly causing some pain by accident. You'd still be far up the scale from your dog, who can't really understand what's going on, and can't just get up and leave. If you take a dog, scared and traumatized by abandonment, hurt from surgery, and try to 'correct' him, you might cause permanent psychological damage.


Good stuff but not entirely true as my wife would turn completely aversive and the stuff used to stop me from poking her would be scary very scary indeed, of course she's not a 5 lb dogs so the damage to me would be very extreme.

Oh wil.wish liked the whole reply but had to jump on the wife thing.


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

With a child, I believe that mild physical punishment, like a swat on the butt, is not always harmful if the child perceives it as fair. On the other hand, severe physical punishment is never fair and usually causes psychological damage. The same probably applies to most dogs. That's not to say that it's a good idea to swat a kid or a dog on the butt. There are usually better methods. Just an observation. 

A child and a dog are in many ways similar. You must instill the proper behavior in them at a young age. When you think about it, though, an older dog is probably better at learning correct behavior than an older child.


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

You give as many treats as you need to. To train my dog to focus on me when walking him, he got treats every single time he looked at me, no matter how many times. Cut back on his regular meals to compensate. After the behavior you are training becomes automatic, then cut back and give treats intermittently while continuing verbal praise, and eventually taper the treats off, just using verbal praise.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Question about giving treat, whether it's training or encouraging good behaviour. I don't know how much and often to give, because I don't know if giving too much will make the dog not wanting to eat his food, or if he does, he will become fat because I'm giving too much treat on top of his meal?


Treats can be very small, and in most cases should be, so you don't break the bank nor overload your dog with calories. I chop them up and put them in a little plastic container to preserve them. While I've heard it's more practical to train and give treats when your dog is very hungry, my dogs work for treats with enthusiasm at any time. Also, if you want to give a mega-treat, such as to reinforce recall, do it by giving small treats one at a time in rapid succession. I read that giving several treats all at once is equivalent to giving just one treat, but one after the other makes it more valuable.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Good stuff but not entirely true as my wife would turn completely aversive and the stuff used to stop me from poking her would be scary very scary indeed, of course she's not a 5 lb dogs so the damage to me would be very extreme.
> 
> Oh wil.wish liked the whole reply but had to jump on the wife thing.


That was a good laugh this morning. Yeah, my wife would kick my $&!# if I did something like I described to her.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> As for the "red zone", it's just a word that represents the most focused aggression state of mind, I guess. I thought there are different levels of aggression, and there's always an ultimate one. Like when Halo knows I have treat in my head, his mind is all about the treat and he would do anything I want to get it. He is so focus that he would sit when I say down, and if I don't give him the treat, he will then goes down. Basically he would try on everything I taught him before to see which one he gets the treat, regardless of what my command is. So I thought that's because his focus was actually all on the food when I trained him and I don't even know if he actually knows the different between each command.


He may not know the words yet. And if he does the behavior while you are showing him food, he probably looks at the food as a cue, not the words. But that's fixable. And it is wonderful that he IS so food motivated. That's going to make positive reinforcement training and the counterconditioning/desensitization so much easier! It's great that you are on here asking questions and learning, but it is unlikely you're going to get a solid training program off an internet forum (though lots of people who can help you if you get stuck.) On this forum, there is a "sticky" of people's favorite training books. Many of those books are available at your library, and will give you great information. There are also some great websites with video on training. Two I would look at for sure are kikopup's youtube page and Sue Ailsby's. Sue also has a training program called The Levels set up for people who are training on their own. The old version (which is still very useful) is available at her website sue eh.ca


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

wil.wish said:


> What books? I'm always on the lookout for good ones I haven't read yet.


http://www.dogwise.com/SearchResults.cfm?Search=pamela dennison&SubSearch=author

How To Right a Dog Gone Wrong has been a lifesaver for me lately. Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog training was the book that got me to come over to the cookie tossing side.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> http://www.dogwise.com/SearchResults.cfm?Search=pamela dennison&SubSearch=author
> 
> How To Right a Dog Gone Wrong has been a lifesaver for me lately. Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog training was the book that got me to come over to the cookie tossing side.


Thank you very much for all the constructive suggestion and reference from everybody. I will go ahead and check those books out. Halo is not aggressive in general, only in couple particular irritating situation, but I will still need to learn to desensitize those situation. However, those situations were more needed than the regular one, like cleaning the ears. He ears was a little infected (guess the previous owner never cleaned them.) Or cleaning his wound. If we take our time to desensitize him first, by the time he let us clean it it'll even be worse already so we needed to do it immediately. So other than force it, what can we do as we can't take our time?

When I said he potty elsewhere, I see he is actually picking a different spot for potty, and usually goes there. He poops and pees on a different spots too but near. The thing is I cannot put pad there because it's a narrow walkway and people will definitely step on it in the middle of the night when they go to bathroom. So I wish to teach him to go back to the spot that he always went 100% before. I gave him treat whenever I found him potty on that spot, but for some reason he just doesn't go back there anymore. I understand dog may become cranky and so after surgery, but I don't know if their behaviour would totally change too, (i.e. potty at a different spot, taking over my other dog's bed which he never went on it before, he went near it but never actually got on the bed.) So now back to my original question, should I do all these training, counter-conditioning, desensitizing during his recovery, or wait until later to train him all over again if he happened to stick with the new behaviour...?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> After he's awake he started following me back into the bedroom. Then he went right outside of the bedroom to poop, another new spot, and he knew to poop on the pad before. I immediately put him back on the pad, picked up the poop, showed him, and put the poop on the pad and point at the poop on the pad. I don't know if he gets what I'm trying to say. My friend did the same thing to her dog and she learnt to pee and poo on pad. Hopefully if I do it enough Halo will get it.


I guarantee your dog will never "get it". The goal in dog training is not to teach concepts of the human world, it's to install behavior. Behavior is not driven by knowledge, it's driven by good and bad results. Your dog does not care about how much your carpet costs or how much trouble it is for you to clean it up. If you check out the indoor potty training link, you will see no mention of trying to teach the dog abstract concepts as you are hoping to do.





> As for the growling/biting issue, to sum up, besides trying the counterconditioning, what I should do is just walk away and ignore him even though he comes back to me, so that he will learn nothing has accomplished if he growls or bites, correct? Most of the time when he growls/bites is only when we try to clean his ear or brush/check his teeth. In that case I will have to desensitize him first right?


Yes, desensitize him first, slowly, just as Sophia Yin did. Avoid moving too fast and triggering a reaction. The whole goal is to keep him under threshold the entire time while at the same time decreasing the threshold.





> One thing I don't know is how far back dogs actually remember. Like if I ignore him for growling, will he relate that to his growling/biting like 5, 10 mins ago?


We don't know that much about how the dog's brain works, but generally the rule I follow for maximum allowable time between behavior and feedback is 1 second. Beyond that and you're not terribly sure what the dog is associating with the feedback. Dogs have great memories, but they cannot piece together things in their brains that happened too far apart. That's why your method of showing your dog the poop and then putting it on the pad has about a .0001% chance of success.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

That's very helpful, thanks! But if he doesn't get it, why was he scared when I lead him to the pad, whether to show him that he should potty there (when he's not), or want to praise him that he did a good job that he potty there when he did? I spoke softly, but he avoided looking at the pad and his tail was down...

I've also learnt that if dog has unwanted behaviour, we should ignore him. How long should we ignore him for until we interact with him again?


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

It definitely can't hurt to reward him when you happen to catch him in good behavior while he's recovering, however to actually start deliberately counter-conditiioning him to things he finds unpleasant, I would wait a bit until he's recovered. He probably doesn't feel 100% well yet therefore his thresholds may be lower so you might think the problem is worse than it is or get frustrated because it seems like he just doesn't get it. 

For the potty problem, have you tried moving the spot to somewhere different from the original spot but also out of the way? I'm sure the first time he pooped/peed after having surgery in that area didn't feel too great so he may have negative associations with that spot and thinks going somewhere else is why it doesn't hurt now. Make sure you're cleaning REALLY well using something like nature's miracle when he goes in that hallway so he's not encouraged to go in that place via scent.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Ditch13 said:


> I've also learnt that if dog has unwanted behaviour, we should ignore him. How long should we ignore him for until we interact with him again?



For the dog, if he's doing something wrong/annoying, you want to let him know that the behavior he's doing is NOT a behavior that will be rewarded. Turn yourself slightly away from the dog, don't look at him and pay no attention to him. You can even walk away if need be! You can return your attention to him when he's settled down, when you settle down (this is usually the hardest for me when we're dealing with aggression/biting), or at the very least 10-20 seconds (that's really all it takes for the dog to realize that you don't approve of the behavior he just showed!) and ask him to do something that you're sure he knows how to do (sit, down, shake, whatever you know he will definitely do correctly!) and reward that. You're giving the dog a lot of feedback on his behavior by deliberately not reinforcing his bad behavior in any way, and then showing him that complying with what you ask of him is very good and rewarding for him.

You will be amazed when things finally "click" for him and he starts wanting to work with you instead of it being a power struggle over leader/follower relationships. We definitely had an "aha" moment where Brody realized that I didn't want to kill him and just wanted to be able to hang out and take a walk in a park without him flipping out and wanting to eat any dog that wasn't a german shepherd. He gets to be outside and sniff and pee on things when he's well behaved so what isn't there to like!


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## Voidious (Jan 21, 2011)

Lots of great advice from folks with a lot more experience than me, but one thing occurs to me... I understand not wanting the dog to traverse 2 flights of stairs while it's recovering from surgery, but being a Maltese, couldn't you just carry it outside? It just seems to me you'd have a much easier time doing it that way than struggling with the wee wee pads. You can always teach that later if it's important to you.

Also, my dog would be a nut-job after 1 day without getting outside. =) Is it really that large a risk of infection to spend a few minutes outside, supervised and on leash? Personally, it's a risk I'd probably take.

Best of luck!


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Voidious said:


> Lots of great advice from folks with a lot more experience than me, but one thing occurs to me... I understand not wanting the dog to traverse 2 flights of stairs while it's recovering from surgery, but being a Maltese, couldn't you just carry it outside? It just seems to me you'd have a much easier time doing it that way than struggling with the wee wee pads. You can always teach that later if it's important to you.
> 
> Also, my dog would be a nut-job after 1 day without getting outside. =) Is it really that large a risk of infection to spend a few minutes outside, supervised and on leash? Personally, it's a risk I'd probably take.
> 
> Best of luck!


I have no problem of carrying him. I just read a lot of people suggest not to take him out until at least a week after. He's not very well walking on leash yet, which I was also trying to train him prior to the surgery, so I don't want him to do anything that might inflict overly stretch on his wound. I thought of bring him to work with me as usual, that way I can give him more walk for releasing, but since he potty everywhere in my office, and my boss does not have any cleaning lady ever to even just to vacuum the floor, I don't know if it's a good idea for now. So the only thing I could do is to leave him home during the day. Even back then when I took him out 4 times a day to release, he still needed to pee at home, whether it's in the evening or at night. Not to find any excuses, I'm really trying to learn how to make it work. Halo is learning this new home and his new human family, as well as I'm still learning about him. I always think if he is bored? If he is content, if he's really ok just to lie next to me rather than doing something else? He doesn't really play with toy, he chews his bone for less than few minutes and stop, he doesn't play with my other dog, any dog, not even his old companion dog (the one that got abandoned at the same time by his owner.) The only time I see him getting excited is when there's treat (not even regular meal, I have to spend time to hand feed him first, or else he just back up at the food bowl and not eat.) Especially now that he got his surgery, I am thinking about him all the time that if he's ok at home. I leave food in the morning and try to feed him first, but he usually doesn't eat, and he would never walk to the food himself without me being there. It is stressful, but only because I don't know what to do. I'm not annoyed at all, but rather just worried.

My hubby also said some dogs don't require a lot, they just need to be close to there owner, and food. I'm not quite convinced. I wish I know what I can do to fulfil his life more, besides just training. I'm so grateful that people gave me so much responses here to help learn what should be done and what's not. I've been reading/watching a lot online on how to treat and take care of dogs, but people have different methods. The most important is to understand what the dog needs and their emotions, yet right now, I can't read what's in Halo's head yet (even prior to the surgery.)

Since out of all he is clinging onto me the most, at first I thought perhaps it's because I was the first one who spent the most time with him, and I never punished him in a harsh way, so maybe he liked me... Then I started wondering he follows me around perhaps only because I'm only his food source... All sort of things are going through my head yet I don't have an answer. Lost, totally.

Or am I just thinking too much?


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> For the potty problem, have you tried moving the spot to somewhere different from the original spot but also out of the way? I'm sure the first time he pooped/peed after having surgery in that area didn't feel too great so he may have negative associations with that spot and thinks going somewhere else is why it doesn't hurt now. Make sure you're cleaning REALLY well using something like nature's miracle when he goes in that hallway so he's not encouraged to go in that place via scent.


My dad always cleans the hallway and the bathroom floor with diluted bleach everyday. Though I'm not fond of it but can't say anything to him. I'm also getting this stain & odor remover today to see if it helps. I thought about maybe Halo felt it's too far for him to walk to the old spot especially since he's still in the soft cone, so he pees inside the bathroom which is right across from my bedroom, and poops in between. Unfortunately there's no other spot from my bedroom to his old potty spot I can put his pad on without not being in the way. But I'm gonna try to leave pads on his new spots regardless while removing the scent anyway. He did once peed in the living room as well which is way passes the old potty spot. So I don't know. I'm crossing my fingers that this is only temporary due to his discomfort. On the bright side, at least he doesn't potty inside our bedroom which is a carpet floor, although he peed twice in my dad's bedroom, but we think he was only marking as his room is my other dog's space...


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

A word about ignoring unwanted behaviors. I suspect a lot of people here "get it" but from some of the odd statements made about positive reinforcement training, I suspect that some do not. You are not responding to the behavior at that moment, but you aren't just letting it slide. You ARE immediately forming a plan to address the behavior and explain to your dog what you want, when both you and the dog are calm and in a learning mood (and you are prepared)


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> That's very helpful, thanks! But if he doesn't get it, why was he scared when I lead him to the pad, whether to show him that he should potty there (when he's not), or want to praise him that he did a good job that he potty there when he did? I spoke softly, but he avoided looking at the pad and his tail was down...


I don't totally get what you're saying. When does he look sad?




> I've also learnt that if dog has unwanted behaviour, we should ignore him. How long should we ignore him for until we interact with him again?


Ignoring works when the reward for the behavior is interaction with you. If the behavior is self-rewarding, such as chewing the couch, ignoring the dog won't do jack. Typically you ignore until the dog is calm. You get to decide what qualifies as calm.






Ditch13 said:


> The most important is to understand what the dog needs and their emotions, yet right now, I can't read what's in Halo's head yet (even prior to the surgery.)


We all have different philosophies on how to fulfill our dogs. In this case I tend to side with Cesar Millan's basic philosophy, which is to first and foremost make sure the dog is challenged physically and mentally everyday. A lot of people try to cater to their dog's every emotional whim to try to make them happy all of the time. What this creates is a spoiled dog. My personal opinion is that I can fulfill my dog's needs by challenging his brain. All animals are wired to work. They don't get food handed to them in bowls, they have to work for it. Every chance I can work my dog, I give it to him. At the end of the day, the cuddling means that much more because we actually earned it.





Ditch13 said:


> My dad always cleans the hallway and the bathroom floor with diluted bleach everyday.


I'm pretty sure bleach has chemicals that makes dogs want to pee even more... but I might be mistaken.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

> I have no problem of carrying him. I just read a lot of people suggest not to take him out until at least a week after.


I think you are over doing this a little. 2 days after surgery my dogs have been back to normal walking schedule and taken outside to pee the second they are home from the vets. I personally dont think it is fair to expect the dog to stay inside that long.



> I thought of bring him to work with me as usual, that way I can give him more walk for releasing, but since he potty everywhere in my office, and my boss does not have any cleaning lady ever to even just to vacuum the floor, I don't know if it's a good idea for now.


He's peeing everywhere because he is not potty trained. 
Try starting with potty 101 so taking him outside to pee every 30 minuets and giving him treats and acting like he just did the best thing in the world when he goes outside.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

I mean right after he potty elsewhere, I took him to the pad, he avoided looking at it, tail's down and sometimes shaking. I did not yell or did anything harsh, but he just didn't wanna go there and not looking at it.

I think training him with some basic command, playing with him etc are also brain challenging right? But I don't know what is enough. For plays he doesn't play long, just few minutes and he loses interest. With command I think he can go on forever because of the treat. I don't know how long should I take him for a walk either.

As for the potty training, I agree that he is not well trained yet. But like I said he went to the pad at home 100% before the surgery. But not in my office. I cannot take him out every 30 mins because I have to work. And it's impossible when I leave him home during the day. Even for me walking 3 floors back and forth everything 30 mins is impossible... Right before I saw him pooping on the newspaper of my other dog's potty spot, which is right next to his own old potty spot. I immediately used the clicker then went to give him treat. He already knew about the clicker means good and treat for what he does right. He still hasn't peed yet since I came home after work (he peed once outside my bedroom door during the day.) So I'm trying to catch every moment that he would go back to the pad now and use the clicker. Hopefully that could get him back on the pad.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

katielou said:


> I think you are over doing this a little. 2 days after surgery my dogs have been back to normal walking schedule and taken outside to pee the second they are home from the vets. I personally dont think it is fair to expect the dog to stay inside that long.


I was just reading online, and most website and people suggest that. Even my vet told me to wait for a little bit first. I'm glad that your dog was fine on walking after just 2 days, but I think every dogs is different. Mine was still dazed and didn't want to move around for 2 days. He doesn't potty unless I walke him for a while, and he is still not doing well with that yet. He would charge out to the door, reach up to cars parked on the street, tries to run to people, or not walking at all and just stands there. I don't not want to pull him too much as he is fighting me against it. I thought all those things might worsen his wound.

Just like with kids, I don't think people will let their kids out on a street just few days after the surgery, especially when u know they will run around. He will only suffer more if his wound gets ripped or infected. I put off all my plans and rush home to keep him company, play with him to keep him from boredom. His walking is more for him to go outside rather than merely for releasing. I let him potty at home, which he needed it even when I took him out 4-6 times a day before. So I don't think it's unfair if people take healing as a priority. Just my opinion.

The thing is, I don't need him to only potty outside. I only want to train him to potty on the pads. I don't need him to hold it in until I come home, if something happens and I end up home a lot later that would be horrible for him. With pad training at least he will go to a designated area indoor when he needs it.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> I mean right after he potty elsewhere, I took him to the pad, he avoided looking at it, tail's down and sometimes shaking. I did not yell or did anything harsh, but he just didn't wanna go there and not looking at it.


Somehow or another, he's learned to associate aversive experiences with this situation. 





> I think training him with some basic command, playing with him etc are also brain challenging right? But I don't know what is enough. For plays he doesn't play long, just few minutes and he loses interest. With command I think he can go on forever because of the treat. I don't know how long should I take him for a walk either.


You say that he's not good at walking on a leash. Slowly teaching polite leash walking sounds like a good place to start for a challenge, for both you and the dog.






> He still hasn't peed yet since I came home after work (he peed once outside my bedroom door during the day.) So I'm trying to catch every moment that he would go back to the pad now and use the clicker. Hopefully that could get him back on the pad.


Sounds good, the clicker can be very helpful.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> Somehow or another, he's learned to associate aversive experiences with this situation.


I see. I need to show him pads are a happy place!





> You say that he's not good at walking on a leash. Slowly teaching polite leash walking sounds like a good place to start for a challenge, for both you and the dog.


I was working on it every time when I took him out to walk. I tried the Easy Walk No Pull Harness, it didn't work well on him, (but it worked a wonder on my other dog.) I tried with his favourite treats but he would ignore it at first but finally I got his attention, though after he took the treat immediately he turned back to where he was focusing. But it's making a little progress. What I don't understand is at the beginning he always just stand there and would not walk. I know at first his attention is on elsewhere, so I wait, then he would look at me, I lightly tug the leash and I am in a walking gesture toward where I want to walk. He would not walk (no sniffing nor doing anything else), not responding to my call but just stands there and stares at me for a good while. What could be the reason? And what do you mean by "polite leash walking"?

Oh, also, I've seen others, including my friend and my neighbour, that they don't need to leash the dog when they walk them, the dog will follow them around no matter what. Is every dog trainable to that? Or do you not suggest not using leash?


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> BTW, in my opinion, vets are among my least favorite people for handling dogs. They operate on a time schedule and force dogs to do things beyond what they are comfortable with. They're not behaviorists or trainers.


I do agree, yet I understand. They are not there to train dogs, they are just there to give medical attention. If a dog is injured and needs immediate attention, but it would snap when people touch its wound, they can't take time to desensitize it until it gets comfortable, but to use force. However, I think it's the owner's responsibility to desensitize their dogs afterward to prepare for the next time... or am I wrong?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> My dad always cleans the hallway and the bathroom floor with diluted bleach everyday. Though I'm not fond of it but can't say anything to him. I'm also getting this stain & odor remover today to see if it helps. I thought about maybe Halo felt it's too far for him to walk to the old spot especially since he's still in the soft cone, so he pees inside the bathroom which is right across from my bedroom, and poops in between. Unfortunately there's no other spot from my bedroom to his old potty spot I can put his pad on without not being in the way. But I'm gonna try to leave pads on his new spots regardless while removing the scent anyway. He did once peed in the living room as well which is way passes the old potty spot. So I don't know. I'm crossing my fingers that this is only temporary due to his discomfort. On the bright side, at least he doesn't potty inside our bedroom which is a carpet floor, although he peed twice in my dad's bedroom, but we think he was only marking as his room is my other dog's space...


You know, I find a litter box to be clearer to the dog than potty pads, if you must train them to eliminate inside. Pads are nice and soft and flat, and tend to seem a lot like clothes on the floor, comforters, rugs, etc. You also need to give him much less freedom. If you aren't watching him, he needs to be in an xpen with his litter box. If you are watching him, you need to REALLY be watching him - as in he is tethered to you and you notice if he starts to sniff or circle so you can get him to the right place.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> You know, I find a litter box to be clearer to the dog than potty pads, if you must train them to eliminate inside. Pads are nice and soft and flat, and tend to seem a lot like clothes on the floor, comforters, rugs, etc. You also need to give him much less freedom. If you aren't watching him, he needs to be in an xpen with his litter box. If you are watching him, you need to REALLY be watching him - as in he is tethered to you and you notice if he starts to sniff or circle so you can get him to the right place.



I will think about getting a xpen. My question is, let's say if he successfully learn to do it on pad, later on if I move the pad to a different spot (like his old potty spot), will he learn to potty wherever the pad is, or he'll stick with the spot where it was in the xpen?

I like the idea of litter box, but pad works for me better because if he learns to only potty on pad, then even if I take him to a new surrounding, like my mom's home, my office, he will know where to go if needed.

I am trying to follow him every time when he leaves my bedroom, and at time when I think he should be needing to potty, but then if he sees me following him he'll run back to me... I will then lead him to the pad and wait there. He ends up just sitting there and wait for me! LOL! Anyway I'm still trying. ^^


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> I will think about getting a xpen. My question is, let's say if he successfully learn to do it on pad, later on if I move the pad to a different spot (like his old potty spot), will he learn to potty wherever the pad is, or he'll stick with the spot where it was in the xpen?
> 
> I like the idea of litter box, but pad works for me better because if he learns to only potty on pad, then even if I take him to a new surrounding, like my mom's home, my office, he will know where to go if needed.
> 
> I am trying to follow him every time when he leaves my bedroom, and at time when I think he should be needing to potty, but then if he sees me following him he'll run back to me... I will then lead him to the pad and wait there. He ends up just sitting there and wait for me! LOL! Anyway I'm still trying. ^^


My guess is that he may think he'll be in trouble if he eliminates in front of you, so is waiting for a chance to slip off and do it in private. As to taking potty pads to the office and when visiting friends or relatives? EWWW! I understand that you are three flights up and it may be more convenient to allow him to eliminate in your home. But teach him to ALSO go outside. And when you are visiting, take him for a walk to go. Personally I think it can be very difficult for dogs to get the difference between "I am allowed to potty in the house" and "I am only allowed to potty on these little flat things in the house. That's what I would prefer about a litter box or one of those fake grass pads. The substrate is more like outside. Pads are easy to confuse for other things in your home. I would not keep moving his potty spot around either. I would pick the area that works best for me and make SURE he doesn't have access to potty elsewhere through management and very careful supervision. And I would teach him that pottying in front of you (in the right place) is cause for celebration and cookies.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> My guess is that he may think he'll be in trouble if he eliminates in front of you, so is waiting for a chance to slip off and do it in private. As to taking potty pads to the office and when visiting friends or relatives? EWWW! I understand that you are three flights up and it may be more convenient to allow him to eliminate in your home. But teach him to ALSO go outside. And when you are visiting, take him for a walk to go. Personally I think it can be very difficult for dogs to get the difference between "I am allowed to potty in the house" and "I am only allowed to potty on these little flat things in the house. That's what I would prefer about a litter box or one of those fake grass pads. The substrate is more like outside. Pads are easy to confuse for other things in your home. I would not keep moving his potty spot around either. I would pick the area that works best for me and make SURE he doesn't have access to potty elsewhere through management and very careful supervision. And I would teach him that pottying in front of you (in the right place) is cause for celebration and cookies.


Thanks a lot! I do take them outside when I take him to work, and I try to take them out as much as I could if visiting friends (but I can't walk my dog at where my mom lives.) I want so I think pad training works the best for me, for the time when he really needs to go but I can't take him out yet. I clean up every time when he poops, and change the pad with pee daily. I know most people train their dogs only potty outside, I'm not against it but I don't like the idea of them holding it in. What if I end up not able to go home that day, or get home really late? I had really bad experiences myself so I don't want to have my dog do the same. =P

Since he was already on pads 100% prior to the surgery, I will just keep trying to supervise him and train him to go back there. Now I always have my clicker and treats ready whenever he leaves my bedroom. ^^


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Has anyone ever tried that Puppy Training Potty Apartment? 

http://modernpuppies.com/

What is the different if I just fence him in a small area, where I put his bed and the pad right by his bed in there?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Has anyone ever tried that Puppy Training Potty Apartment?
> 
> http://modernpuppies.com/
> 
> What is the different if I just fence him in a small area, where I put his bed and the pad right by his bed in there?


I don't get it. That's just a dog crate.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Isn't a dog crate usually be used for them to sleep in and not let them going to potty inside the crate? This is actually training the dog to go in the potty (designating) area. But I just wonder if I have put a bed inside a playpen with pads all covering it, will it do the same...


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Isn't a dog crate usually be used for them to sleep in and not let them going to potty inside the crate? This is actually training the dog to go in the potty (designating) area. But I just wonder if I have put a bed inside a playpen with pads all covering it, will it do the same...


Well, the link you provided was a dog crate. I would probably use an x-pen and make it long and narrow. Bed, food and toys at one end, potty area at the other.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Well, the link you provided was a dog crate. I would probably use an x-pen and make it long and narrow. Bed, food and toys at one end, potty area at the other.



Ok. What about should I cover all the area with pads so he doesn't potty in between? Or do I leave some space?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Ok. What about should I cover all the area with pads so he doesn't potty in between? Or do I leave some space?


Depends. Do you want him to learn to discriminate where to go or not? If you do, have pads (if that's your choice, it wouldn't be mine) in ONE area, away from where he sleeps and plays. If you are worried about the floor underneath, get some remnant vinyl flooring and put it under the xpen. Dogs like to urinate in the same spot - so don't keep it TOO clean of that odor. But they like to spread out where they defecate, so you want to keep that well picked up. I got this information from Dr. Ian Dunbar.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

You could have the vacant floor totally filled with pads and after a week start by removing 1 pad around the edge every other day. Gradually the pad area will get to size you want to keep/use regularly. 

I've never used pads but it would be something interesting to try.


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## southhavenjen (Aug 20, 2010)

I will never understand the pee pad thing. So gross!


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> He would not walk (no sniffing nor doing anything else), not responding to my call but just stands there and stares at me for a good while. What could be the reason? And what do you mean by "polite leash walking"?
> 
> Oh, also, I've seen others, including my friend and my neighbour, that they don't need to leash the dog when they walk them, the dog will follow them around no matter what. Is every dog trainable to that? Or do you not suggest not using leash?


Who knows why dogs do things. It's not terribly important why. What's more important is how to respond. By polite leash walking, I mean, walking calmly beside, not rushing to get ahead, not lunging for a bush on the side. As for the neighbors who go without a leash, some people have dogs who will instinctually stay with them. Personally, I don't think it's safe to go off leash in an urban/suburban environment where there are a lot of cars unless you have an e-collar for emergencies, but different strokes for different folks. To go off leash, you can train the dog to walk beside you and to have an infallible recall, but if the instinct isn't there, it will be a dangerous uphill battle. I don't think you need to worry about off-leash, training that is very advanced stuff.







Ditch13 said:


> I do agree, yet I understand. They are not there to train dogs, they are just there to give medical attention. If a dog is injured and needs immediate attention, but it would snap when people touch its wound, they can't take time to desensitize it until it gets comfortable, but to use force. However, I think it's the owner's responsibility to desensitize their dogs afterward to prepare for the next time... or am I wrong?


Agreed, though that's easier said than done. The dog may learn to accept handling from you, but will have to relearn to accept it from a stranger. To do that, you will need a couple of buddies to practice desensitization.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Depends. Do you want him to learn to discriminate where to go or not? If you do, have pads (if that's your choice, it wouldn't be mine) in ONE area, away from where he sleeps and plays. If you are worried about the floor underneath, get some remnant vinyl flooring and put it under the xpen. Dogs like to urinate in the same spot - so don't keep it TOO clean of that odor. But they like to spread out where they defecate, so you want to keep that well picked up. I got this information from Dr. Ian Dunbar.



It's not like he didn't know where to go before the surgery. He went 100% at that spot. Only after the surgery he went off everywhere, that's why I was wondering if it's because the discomfort was causing this change.

As for another comment about pee wee pad is gross, I don't agree. Would you say having a toilet in the house is gross? If people don't flush, don't clean up their toilet where urine stain is everywhere, it's just as gross. It all depends on how clean a person is. I clean up my dogs poop every time. As for pee, I clean it daily, but if the pad already has a lot of pee on it then I change it right away. There will be time that we can't take the dog out at all (i.e. if there is a rain or snow storm.) What are you going to do if you house broken your dog not to potty inside yet you can't let him out, just let them hold it in until whenever it's safe to take them outside? By them knowing to go on the pad is definitely better than they go just anywhere inside the house. My pad training is not for them only do potty inside the house, I still take him out every day as much as I could. But it's for the time when they need to go but have no access to the outside.

Anyway, I think Halo is getting back on the pad now. For the past 2 days I have been doing the clicker and gave him a treat when he potty on the pad. Just right before he came jumping by my bed. I got up and he ran out of the room so I followed him. He went on the pad right next to a wet spot and jumping. I knew he was showing me that he peed on the pad so he deserved a treat... LOL! The pad was dry just a minute ago. Oh for the past 2 days he only potty on the pad and not elsewhere as well.


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## southhavenjen (Aug 20, 2010)

My large breed dog always, always, always goes outside - whether rain or snow or whatever. And I am with him holding the leash. I can't imagine setting up pee pads for him, ugh. Taking a dog out is part of dog ownership, IMHO. I'm not sure why smaller dogs are exempt from going outside in bad weather. I can only think it's laziness on the part of the owner.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

southhavenjen said:


> My large breed dog always, always, always goes outside - whether rain or snow or whatever. And I am with him holding the leash. I can't imagine setting up pee pads for him, ugh. Taking a dog out is part of dog ownership, IMHO. I'm not sure why smaller dogs are exempt from going outside in bad weather. I can only think it's laziness on the part of the owner.


Could be a problem with a foot or two snow on ground for some dogs, I think convenience is good. You get the dog whatever size and then build/adjust a personal system to make it convenient for dog and owner to get the job done properly. Notice the word "properly". The environment is the problem, people live in condos, apartments, homes etc etc etc. No yards, small yards, large yards, If you're on the 20th floor it could be a little tough to get job done walking. I'm just sayin'...

Our setup is very easy, dog is turned loose he must run through small fenced yard (gate always open) into a large fenced area (acre) and when done is back barking at door within 5 minutes and the job is done. I would have no reason to walk dog except at 1st to get habit of dumping in larger area started. The huge snowstorms we had last year is a very good reason not to own a small dog as we would not want pads etc in home. Not knocking it, just not for us.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

southhavenjen said:


> My large breed dog always, always, always goes outside - whether rain or snow or whatever. And I am with him holding the leash. I can't imagine setting up pee pads for him, ugh. Taking a dog out is part of dog ownership, IMHO. I'm not sure why smaller dogs are exempt from going outside in bad weather. I can only think it's laziness on the part of the owner.


Why on earth do YOU care what Ditch does with HER dog and home?




> Anyway, I think Halo is getting back on the pad now. For the past 2 days I have been doing the clicker and gave him a treat when he potty on the pad. Just right before he came jumping by my bed. I got up and he ran out of the room so I followed him. He went on the pad right next to a wet spot and jumping. I knew he was showing me that he peed on the pad so he deserved a treat... LOL! The pad was dry just a minute ago. Oh for the past 2 days he only potty on the pad and not elsewhere as well.


Awesome! Really, training to use the pad is the same as housetraining to go outside, you're just training to a different location/substrate. I was going to say, too, if you think his surgery recovery somehow created an aversion to the pads, you could always try a litterbox for a dog that small, too.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Why on earth do YOU care what Ditch does with HER dog and home?
> 
> 
> Awesome! Really, training to use the pad is the same as housetraining to go outside, you're just training to a different location/substrate. I was going to say, too, if you think his surgery recovery somehow created an aversion to the pads, you could always try a litterbox for a dog that small, too.


Thanks a lot! Sometimes I envy people who have a house and a back yard of their own, and they could spend most of the time staying home training their dogs, still take them out to release during the hurricane Irene hit with 100mph wind going on and not to have to worry about a tree might fall on you...

Another time I caught Halo's pooping on the pad, he saw me. Right after he's done he stood by it jumping around, excited for his treat! LOL it's just so cute. BUT, during the time when we are sleeping, he's peeing/pooping anywhere again! However whenever I'm awake, he always goes to the pads. I suspect once he just marked on the pad so he could get a treat, which he didn't really need to pee... >.> Anyway, I'll keep on with the training. ^^


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> Another time I caught Halo's pooping on the pad, he saw me. Right after he's done he stood by it jumping around, excited for his treat! LOL it's just so cute. BUT, during the time when we are sleeping, he's peeing/pooping anywhere again! However whenever I'm awake, he always goes to the pads. I suspect once he just marked on the pad so he could get a treat, which he didn't really need to pee... >.> Anyway, I'll keep on with the training. ^^


Very nice. Clearly you're having success teaching him to go on the pad when you're there. 

Eliminating elsewhere when you're not there to see is a textbook case of not generalizing the behavior. Dogs are very particular about what they learn. It's a natural survival instinct. If they got spooked by something once and never try it again, they narrow their ability to survive. So they are very good at discriminating their environment and learning something under one particular circumstance. In short, he's learned to use the pad when you are awake and has not learned to use it when you are asleep. Just like any housetraining manual will say, you will have to gate off part of the house so that he has no other choice but to use the pad when you are asleep. It's the concept of setting him up for success. Good luck.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> Very nice. Clearly you're having success teaching him to go on the pad when you're there.
> 
> Eliminating elsewhere when you're not there to see is a textbook case of not generalizing the behavior. Dogs are very particular about what they learn. It's a natural survival instinct. If they got spooked by something once and never try it again, they narrow their ability to survive. So they are very good at discriminating their environment and learning something under one particular circumstance. In short, he's learned to use the pad when you are awake and has not learned to use it when you are asleep. Just like any housetraining manual will say, you will have to gate off part of the house so that he has no other choice but to use the pad when you are asleep. It's the concept of setting him up for success. Good luck.



I see! I did think of if he's just doing it when I'm there since he know he will has treat from me! I will give couple more days to see his behaviour, if it persists then I will gate him at night until he learns to do it on pads! ^^

Thank you very much for everyone's advice! They are very helpful! :clap2:


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Has anyone ever tried that Puppy Training Potty Apartment?
> 
> http://modernpuppies.com/
> 
> What is the different if I just fence him in a small area, where I put his bed and the pad right by his bed in there?


Would you like to sleep so close to an, not flushed, toilet? If you want to go down the 'indoor kennel' route, keep toilet and sleeping area more separated.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Sybille said:


> Would you like to sleep so close to an, not flushed, toilet? If you want to go down the 'indoor kennel' route, keep toilet and sleeping area more separated.


Thanks! My friend has a big kennel (even big for a Husky), so I will use that if I need to. I read someone taught to pee on pad by first cover all the area with pad inside the xpen, and slowly removing one by one and eventually leaving only one.

Though dogs may not like sleeping next to where they potty, I don't know why one of Halo's regular off pad potty spot is right outside my bedroom, which is like 1 foot of 2 next to his bed at night. Maybe he think his potty spot is too far when he's half sleeping?


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

/sigh While I was getting a lot of improvement on rewarding his potty on pad, now I have a problem. I stopped giving him treat because he does not eat from his bowl. I read about if the dog doesn't eat his food, take it away 15 mins after and until the next meal, meanwhile do not give it treats. But ever since I do that, he does potty everywhere now, sometimes on pad, but most of the time just anywhere. I thought maybe he's still confused about where to go. But, he just did something that's telling me otherwise. This time we caught him right away that he peed elsewhere, so I was right there holding up the towel he peed on and said bad boy. I think he knew from his evasive eyes. The next thing, he went to pee on pad immediately after. Which made me feel that he knew peeing on pad is good, but since he has been asking for treat and I'm not giving him, and he's hungry, so he threw a fit by potty anywhere. LOL!

So right now I'm not sure what I should do, keep rewarding him with treat when he potty on pad, or just stop all the treat until he eats from his bowl, and maybe just crate train him with pad?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> /sigh While I was getting a lot of improvement on rewarding his potty on pad, now I have a problem. I stopped giving him treat because he does not eat from his bowl. I read about if the dog doesn't eat his food, take it away 15 mins after and until the next meal, meanwhile do not give it treats. But ever since I do that, he does potty everywhere now, sometimes on pad, but most of the time just anywhere. I thought maybe he's still confused about where to go. But, he just did something that's telling me otherwise. This time we caught him right away that he peed elsewhere, so I was right there holding up the towel he peed on and said bad boy. I think he knew from his evasive eyes. The next thing, he went to pee on pad immediately after. Which made me feel that he knew peeing on pad is good, but since he has been asking for treat and I'm not giving him, and he's hungry, so he threw a fit by potty anywhere. LOL!
> 
> So right now I'm not sure what I should do, keep rewarding him with treat when he potty on pad, or just stop all the treat until he eats from his bowl, and maybe just crate train him with pad?


I tend to use the dog's dinner to train. Dinner is used as treats. As I mentioned before, you may love the idea of potty pads, but one of the biggest problems (compared to turf or litter) is that there's not much difference to him (in shape, texture, size) between a towel and a pad. He probably thought he was doing what you wanted. Most dogs will avert their gaze when you fuss a them. It's not a sign of guilt, it's a sign of appeasement (because you are acting angry). I can almost guarantee you that peeing on the towel was an honest mistake, not "throwing a fit"


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> I can almost guarantee you that peeing on the towel was an honest mistake, not "throwing a fit"


Yes, dogs are 100% honest. They are incapable of backhanded behavior or deceit, they simply do not have that part of the brain. Whatever they do is the best they can do at that moment.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> I tend to use the dog's dinner to train. Dinner is used as treats. As I mentioned before, you may love the idea of potty pads, but one of the biggest problems (compared to turf or litter) is that there's not much difference to him (in shape, texture, size) between a towel and a pad. He probably thought he was doing what you wanted. Most dogs will avert their gaze when you fuss a them. It's not a sign of guilt, it's a sign of appeasement (because you are acting angry). I can almost guarantee you that peeing on the towel was an honest mistake, not "throwing a fit"


Thanks a lot for the explanation! One thing I don't understand is that they say dogs tend to potty on the same spot where they did before because of the scent. So while he was doing his potty on the same spot all the time, what triggered him to decide to find a new place and go (I used stain & scent removal)? I'm sure Halo is still a bit confused, but the ratio of doing it on pad and to elsewhere is getting less and less. Anyway, we decided to use the xpen method, putting his bed and water and pad away from it a bit, and start taking him there every hour wait until he potty then take him back out.

As for dinner as treat (feeding a piece by hand), I tried that too. Obviously he's not as excited as other treats. Then when he sees me show him the bowl, he sniffs then walk away, refusing to eat. So right now I'm stopping all the other training, first thing is the potty training and the eating. I understand that he's probably hasn't learnt pad is different than other stuff yet, but as long as he will always go to one spot, that would be good.

As for eating, since he doesn't eat and I don't give him treat, he picks up stuff from the ground when I walk him. He actually eats the nuts that falls off the tree! I thought nuts is toxic to dogs (or allergy?) so I don't know how to stop him from eating that either. Does that mean I should stop walking him until he would eat his meal?

I came across a video where an owner uses an ultrasonic remote, has anyone ever used it? And Pawzk9, when you said litter, is it like a litter box cats use? I've seen those with the grid on top for dog, but we just have to put paper or pad underneath, how will the dog tells the difference from other stuff, because of the surface? I actually have a tray for the pad too if but not the one with the grid, if that's any help...


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Sometimes, one of my dogs, Abby, does't want to eat. I have no clue why. Well, actually, I do kind of have an idea....we live on a bit of land, and even though I watch them carefully, I'm sure they occasionally eat something they shouldn't. So, maybe her stomach was upset, and she didn't feel like eating....who really knows.

But, I definitely don't stop using treats when she's does something right, just because she didn't want to eat her dinner. The way I see it is....you're trying to increase your boy's good behavior about pottying in the right spot, so you're using treats for now. If he does something RIGHT and all of a sudden you don't give him the treat (just because he didn't eat his dinner), he may be confused about if it really WAS the right thing.
Kind of like "hey, I thought I just did something good, like I'm supposed to, but I got nothing! Maybe that's not really what they want me to do...or maybe it's not that important for me to do that, otherwise they'd give me the treat."

Now, granted, I just put lots of words in your puppy's mouth (LOL!) but, my point is, I firmly believe that when you're trying to instill a certain behavior in your puppy you need to be just as consistent with rewarding him as you are with the teaching part.

I'm not saying you need treats forever so that he knows what he does is right, just that it's important when you're still trying to get him to finally understand something.....

And, really, a teeny tiny treat the size of your pinky fingernail isn't that big of a deal, IMO, with sending him a message about wanting treats instead of dinner. It's not like you're using lots of treats for training, you're using ONE to show him he did good by pottying in the right spot...


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> As for eating, since he doesn't eat and I don't give him treat, he picks up stuff from the ground when I walk him. He actually eats the nuts that falls off the tree! I thought nuts is toxic to dogs (or allergy?) so I don't know how to stop him from eating that either. Does that mean I should stop walking him until he would eat his meal?



I think you're making connections where there are no connections or where trying to make connections is futile, just keep it simple and treat problems separately. Dogs will eat stuff off the ground no matter how full they are, it's natural. Not eating dinner may be an issue of the food not being very delicious. Potty training is a separate matter from dinner and walks. Don't worry if your dog doesn't eat his meal, just pick it up if he turns away from it and try again the next day. They will not starve themselves to death. In nature, no animal has food available for them 24/7. They work for their food and gulp it down because it's a rare opportunity. That said, if you are not feeding a healthy meat based kibble, consider switching over. It may cost more, but you feed less and waste less food, so in the end the price works out.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Dogs don't ALWAYS potty in the same spot. The litter is much like cat litter, but with an attractant for dogs. You can use a litter box with an adult dog. Since the last time I used it was with puppies, it was in a tray. 

And with five week old puppies not a one - ever- pottied outside the box. It has the benefit of not being mistakable for other stuff in your house (unless you have a lot of houseplants) because it is not soft and smooth like a pad, or a piece of clothing, or a towel, or a comforter.

Assuming your dog his healthy, here is an article on teaching your dog to eat http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page39/
As with so many things, we tend to give attention to what we don't like, not what we do like. If you will add better stuff, fuss over your dog, etc. the drama is much more exciting than having you put down a bowl and eating from it. 

As to ultrasonic remotes, why? I'm personally a big believer in teaching the dog what you want and not taking shortcuts with punishment gadgets. One reason is that if punishers are not used skillfully, we never know exactly what the dog is associating them with, and can end up with some weird and unexpected problems.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

As for the eating, he's like this since day 1 we brought him home. I've already brought him to the vet, his glucose is a tad high, but other than that he's fine. I use dry food mixed with canned food, and put a little carrots or peas in it. He likes the carrots and peas, but he still wouldn't eat it off from the bowl unless I hand feed him and lure him for like 5 mins. Sometimes he will eat the dry food off my hands too, sometimes don't. I even put in chicken once and he still didn't eat it as long as it's in the bowl. I usually use a stainless steel bowl, and I tried using plate as well, he ate once but that is, I think it's because he's really hungry.

So when I give him treats for his good behavior, he will ask for more (I think that's usual.) He would even go potty on pad again to get the treat, or he would just keep nagging. But ok, I think I will keep giving him treat only when he potty right, other than that I won't until he eats.

I'm undergoing a surgery soon so I won't be able to take him out everyday for a while, or pay as much attention to him about his potty or eating. Gonna get the kennel tonight, hopefully everything will turn out ok. =/


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

@Pawzk9 the link you showed me, said if the dogs don't eat, take the food away and give NOTHING until the next meal. Now this is where my dilemma comes, what if he does something good, like potty on pad, should I then reward him with a treat, or should I not. If I do, say he goes potty again just for another treat (it happened couple times before), I just keep giving him treat but other than that don't?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> As for the eating, he's like this since day 1 we brought him home. I've already brought him to the vet, his glucose is a tad high, but other than that he's fine. I use dry food mixed with canned food, and put a little carrots or peas in it. He likes the carrots and peas, but he still wouldn't eat it off from the bowl unless I hand feed him and lure him for like 5 mins. Sometimes he will eat the dry food off my hands too, sometimes don't. I even put in chicken once and he still didn't eat it as long as it's in the bowl. I usually use a stainless steel bowl, and I tried using plate as well, he ate once but that is, I think it's because he's really hungry.
> 
> So when I give him treats for his good behavior, he will ask for more (I think that's usual.) He would even go potty on pad again to get the treat, or he would just keep nagging. But ok, I think I will keep giving him treat only when he potty right, other than that I won't until he eats.
> 
> I'm undergoing a surgery soon so I won't be able to take him out everyday for a while, or pay as much attention to him about his potty or eating. Gonna get the kennel tonight, hopefully everything will turn out ok. =/


If he can depend on you to fuss over him and add goodies to his food, why in the world would he be tempted to just eat it? Get a good quality food. Put it down. He doesn't eat it, it goes away until the next meal time. If he's healthy he won't starve himself. If he's not, that's what you need to address. When I give my dog treats as rewards (which aren't their food) I use the tinest piece possible. Literally a crumb (and my dogs are much bigger than your dog). So I am not replacing his food. I am not filling him up. At home, with my dogs who have never been allowed to be picky, I do usually use food as training treats. For my dogs I think it is almost as much the offering as the treat itself. They would work for pocket lint.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Ditch13 said:


> As for the eating, he's like this since day 1 we brought him home.



That doesn't mean you can't train him to be less fussy. Being fussy about food is very much a training issue. Not eating is not natural. Good luck with the surgery. BTW, where in NY do you live? We used to live in the Orange County area.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> @Pawzk9 the link you showed me, said if the dogs don't eat, take the food away and give NOTHING until the next meal. Now this is where my dilemma comes, what if he does something good, like potty on pad, should I then reward him with a treat, or should I not. If I do, say he goes potty again just for another treat (it happened couple times before), I just keep giving him treat but other than that don't?


I would reward him for behavior you are working on. But I would use something I can break up into crumb sized pieces. Potty on the pad = one crumb.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> That doesn't mean you can't train him to be less fussy. Being fussy about food is very much a training issue. Not eating is not natural. Good luck with the surgery. BTW, where in NY do you live? We used to live in the Orange County area.


Orange County, is that upstate? I'm in Queens, a borough that's next to NYC. Where did u move to?

I usually break the treats into smaller piece when I train him too. But I thought one of the reason he fusses about eating is because he knows he will get treats from my hand! But all your explanation really helps me a lot!


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

It is if you consider 40 miles north of NYC upstate.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Another thing, how can I tell if a dog is bored? I always worry about that. When I'm not home, Halo sleeps away. When I take him to work, he would just get on my chair and sleeps. I thought it's because he doesn't have anything else to do. At home, he will play with toy only if we play with him, but never get it himself and start playing. Even for bones. He chews on it when we give to him, but never initiates to find it (it's just on the floor next to his bed) and chew. It is sad that couple times he was trying to play with Stewie but he scared Stewie once and Stewie doesn't really response to his play invitation anymore... ;_;

Is it ok for a dog to just sleep so much?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

If a dog is bored, he will look for stuff to do, which is typically to destroy stuff. Dogs do sleep a lot though, so that's nothing to worry about.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

qingcong said:


> It is if you consider 40 miles north of NYC upstate.


Heehee anywhere above Bronx is upstate to me... LOL So what is it considered as? Downstate?

And thanks so much for everyone taking your time to response. It really helps me a lot! ^^


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> As to ultrasonic remotes, why? I'm personally a big believer in teaching the dog what you want and not taking shortcuts with punishment gadgets. One reason is that if punishers are not used skillfully, we never know exactly what the dog is associating them with, and can end up with some weird and unexpected problems.


Oh that ultrasonic remote is not like a shock collar, u don't attach anything to the dog. It produces 2 sounds, one for good and one for bad, but human cannot hear that. I think it's like a clicker, when the dog does something good u press the good button, only it also comes with a difference sound for bad. So there's no punishment of any harm to the dog at all.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Oh that ultrasonic remote is not like a shock collar, u don't attach anything to the dog. It produces 2 sounds, one for good and one for bad, but human cannot hear that. I think it's like a clicker, when the dog does something good u press the good button, only it also comes with a difference sound for bad. So there's no punishment of any harm to the dog at all.


And how does the dog know which sound means 'good' and which 'bad'? Just curious ...


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Sybille said:


> And how does the dog know which sound means 'good' and which 'bad'? Just curious ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL-35LDJ4qs

Someone's comment: 
"The postive button issues a tone, the negative button issues an ultrahigh frequency that is annoying to your dog"


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Oh that ultrasonic remote is not like a shock collar, u don't attach anything to the dog. It produces 2 sounds, one for good and one for bad, but human cannot hear that. I think it's like a clicker, when the dog does something good u press the good button, only it also comes with a difference sound for bad. So there's no punishment of any harm to the dog at all.


For reinforcement, I like hearing the sound of the clicker. Hearing it helps me give timely feedback. As to the sound for bad, it does not physically "hurt" but if it is used for "bad" you can be sure it is unpleasant to the dog. If someone blew a loud whistle in your ear, would that be worth avoiding? It is still punishment. It can still be unpleasant or even scary.


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## Ditch13 (Oct 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> For reinforcement, I like hearing the sound of the clicker. Hearing it helps me give timely feedback. As to the sound for bad, it does not physically "hurt" but if it is used for "bad" you can be sure it is unpleasant to the dog. If someone blew a loud whistle in your ear, would that be worth avoiding? It is still punishment. It can still be unpleasant or even scary.


Good point! Does that also mean that we shouldn't say "bad boy" or anything in a negative tone to dogs?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ditch13 said:


> Good point! Does that also mean that we shouldn't say "bad boy" or anything in a negative tone to dogs?


Saying something in a negative tone is information. Granted, it may not be really useful information - "no" leaves such a range of other possibilities that I'd rather cut to the chase and tell the dog what I want instead of what I don't want. With the ultrasonic blast, especially since I can't hear it myself, I have no way of knowing how unpleasant or even painful it might be to my dog. That's a whole other thing. It's just not something I would do to a dog, any more than I would strap an ecollar on his neck. At least with an ecollar, I could try it on myself and have some idea what my dog might be experiencing.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> For reinforcement, I like hearing the sound of the clicker. Hearing it helps me give timely feedback. As to the sound for bad, it does not physically "hurt" but if it is used for "bad" you can be sure it is unpleasant to the dog. If someone blew a loud whistle in your ear, would that be worth avoiding? It is still punishment. It can still be unpleasant or even scary.


And how do you make sure your timing is spot on for something you can't hear yourself???


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