# Lost Trust in My Dogs



## kennedyzoe (Mar 2, 2008)

Yesterday one of my dogs bit my niece on the face. The wound was very small but that doesn't matter to me. This is the second time this dog has bitten a small girl, 3 year old child. 

The first time was this summer and although the dog got punished immediately I didn't really blame him. The child was repeatedly jumping on the dog from behind and being to aggressive with him. I had told this child 3 times to stop bothering the dog and she did not listen.

Yesterday the dog was sitting next to me at the kitchen table and my niece came over to pet him. I was watching as it happened and she did nothing wrong. She walked up to him and pet him on both sides of the neck and told him he was a pretty dog. I heard a very faint growl for less than a second and he snapped at her face. She has a cut on her lip and her nose. This dog is lucky that my brother was there because I immediately grabbed the dogs neck and was about to punch it in the face when he stopped me. I have never hit my dogs, kids, or anything but I can tell you right now I would have killed that dog right then and there if he had not stopped me. 

My dogs are 3 1/2 years old and otherwise very good dogs. They were raised by my two girls, who seem to have complete control over them. They will sit,stay,rollover. They come when called and no longer jump on visitors. The yard is large and they get plenty of exercise both running with me and chasing eachother in the yard. 

My biggest problem is my lack of trust in the dogs. They just started to sleep in my youngest daughters bed (they used to sleep on the floor in my bedroom) and I don't know if I can trust them. I absolutely won't let them be around stranger children again and I am very sad about that (i used to bring them into schools with me when they were younger to teach fire safety). 

Has any one had a similar problem? How did you handle it?

I am greatfull for any advice.

Dan Phillips
***please do not advertise on our forum***


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Let me restate the question from a different point of view...why don't your dogs trust the people around them? They let out a growl (a small warning) to stop an encroachment into their space and no one listened or cared that they felt threatened. Past experience (being pummelled by a 3 year old) taught them to defend themselves. Trust is a two way street based on respecting each others space, wants and needs.
Having said that, none of us want our dogs snapping at other people. 
The problem is how do you build trust and confidence? That's a training issue and I have to ask what training has been done with the dogs and family members? 
Has the family learned not to approach the dogs in a threatening manner (face to face, reaching over the top of the dog, encroaching into their space in a 'bull rush' manner? Approaching the dog calmly, quietly, non-threatening and respectful? 
A 3 year old will not know how to do this and needs guidance. When done properly, the dog will learn to trust and you will trust your dogs.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

TooneyDogs said:


> Let me restate the question from a different point of view...why don't your dogs trust the people around them? They let out a growl (a small warning) to stop an encroachment into their space and no one listened or cared that they felt threatened. Past experience (being pummelled by a 3 year old) taught them to defend themselves. Trust is a two way street based on respecting each others space, wants and needs.
> Having said that, none of us want our dogs snapping at other people.
> The problem is how do you build trust and confidence? That's a training issue and I have to ask what training has been done with the dogs and family members?
> Has the family learned not to approach the dogs in a threatening manner (face to face, reaching over the top of the dog, encroaching into their space in a 'bull rush' manner? Approaching the dog calmly, quietly, non-threatening and respectful?
> A 3 year old will not know how to do this and needs guidance. When done properly, the dog will learn to trust and you will trust your dogs.



Well said!!


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## triaxle32590 (Feb 19, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> Let me restate the question from a different point of view...why don't your dogs trust the people around them? They let out a growl (a small warning) to stop an encroachment into their space and no one listened or cared that they felt threatened. Past experience (being pummelled by a 3 year old) taught them to defend themselves. Trust is a two way street based on respecting each others space, wants and needs.
> Having said that, none of us want our dogs snapping at other people.
> The problem is how do you build trust and confidence? That's a training issue and I have to ask what training has been done with the dogs and family members?
> Has the family learned not to approach the dogs in a threatening manner (face to face, reaching over the top of the dog, encroaching into their space in a 'bull rush' manner? Approaching the dog calmly, quietly, non-threatening and respectful?
> A 3 year old will not know how to do this and needs guidance. When done properly, the dog will learn to trust and you will trust your dogs.


I totaly agree.....Kids should be taught never ever put their faces in a strange dogs face.....The child you are talking about put her hands on either side of the dogs neck and then stuck her face in the dogs...A dog cannot push her away or tell her no all he can do is give her a warning shot.... And that what it sounds like this dog did.....


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Please read the book "The Other End of the LEash" if you can. It will explain to you what dogs consider impolite behavior from other dogs and why people should avoid those behaviors. One behavior between dogs that they find rude is looking at them face on.. face to face, and then putting an arm over their shoulders.. this is a signal of dominance from the dog placing the paw across the shoulders of the other dog (I hate that word cue to so many misrepresentations of it). Some dogs tolerate it and other dogs do not. Your dog does not. 

Another book I recommend you read is "Culture Clash" as it has a large section of the book devoted to why dogs bite.

LEARN why dogs bite. 

Beyond that, I must agree that this dog has been sensitized to little kids he does not know. 

In the *first situation *the little kid kept jumping on the dog and finally, since no ADULT did anything, the DOG DEALT with it,.. and then.. to add insult to injury.. got punished (I assume hit) for this! 

My Gosh.. that is the same as TEACHING the dog that CHILDREN are DANGEROUS! 

Not the dog's fault.. this is SQUARELY the falut of the adults.. the kid's parents and the dog's owner! INSTEAD of punishing the dog, that kid should have been separated from the dog (so what if the kid started having a tantrum? No is no and the dog had to learn it so why not the kid?).

In the *second situation* the same kid comes at the dog. You think the dog doesn't recall what happened LAST TIME? You BET he does.. the kid came over and badgered him and the dog got hit.. so now the dog has figured out maybe if the kid doesn't touch him, he won't be hit! So, he growled... and, again, the ADULT did NOTHING.. and the dog DEALT with it.. and got punished.. BADLY. 

YOU would have KILLED the dog? *THIS IS YOUR FAULT!!!!!! *YOU Created this!!! 

PLEASE, get rid of the dogs altogether and DO NOT GET ANOTHER DOG if you are going to resort to losing your temper and beating the animal for you own shortcomings!

If, OTOH you plan to KEEP the dogs, get those two books and READ THEM. If they do not shed light on the situation go back to the above statement and follow through with getting rid of the dogs and not getting anymore dogs. Thank you.


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## kennedyzoe (Mar 2, 2008)

Actually, we do care about the dogs warning growl, it just happened to fast to react. The growl was bearly audible and lasted only a second before snapping. I literally was reaching down to touch the dog and stop the growl when he bit.

I have always taught my kids to give the dogs their space and they seem to know it (the dogs and kids). Both dogs have a crate readily available to them and my kids, and their friends, know that if a dog goes into its crate that they are off limits. So, they (he) could have simply gone into his crate to get away from the little girl. I know they do use their crates as an escape because they have used them many times before. For example, During loud parties they will make the rounds greeting everyone and then retire to their crates (instead of the dog beds in the livingroom in the middle of the action) to escape the commotion of a party. 

I don't believe the dogs have aggression issues in general. They do not seek out problems and are constantly rough houseing with several kids from the neighborhood. Aggressively approaching the dogs has not been a problem in the past or with anyone over 3 feet tall. 

I am sure that if this child had not pet the dog that nothing would have happened, however... These are dalmations living with a firefighter and kids will always want to pet them. Right now they are completely off limits and will not be going into another school but I would like to figure out how to accomplish what I had with their predecessor. Jake was my first dalmation and she went to all the schools. She was not a good dog and would run away, jump on people, and steal food (something these dogs don't do) however, she was exceedingly forgiving of children. For example, I was walking her in a park and several kids came to pet her around the head. Unknown to me a small boy came running upon her from behind and jabbed a stick in her behind (hard enough to draw blood). Of course she yelped with suprise but simply turned, smelled, and licked the little boy, much to the surprise of his panicked mother who thought the dog would, rightfully, attack her kid.

I appreciate the advice. Maybe what I am really asking is it unreasonable to expect the same willingness to accept kids (even when completely violent with the dog) as I had with "Jake"? Was she "Jake" just a fluke and I can't expect another dog to take the abuse with such joy again?

Please don't berate me for accepting abuse of my dogs from strange kids. I do try and protect them while at schools. I try and teach the kids the proper way to approach the dogs and pet them. I just can not always trust any child to act as I have told them. If the dog is around the kids I need to trust MY dog not to react to actions of SOMEONE ELSES kid.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

PLEASE read those two books. PLEASE. 

You will learn not only what dogs don't tolerate but that every dog has a bite threshold. Some dogs have a lower bite threshold than other dogs. The dog you have now has a lower bite threshold than the last dog you had.. and now it has been made worse because you reacted inappropriately.. twice. You have likely lowered his bite threshold around young children.. especially girls, even further.

If you cannot acqure ring gates (separate the dogs and children at schools) I suggest you delete the dogs from the equation. These are folding plastic self standing gates.. very light amd easy to transport. 

It is not the dog that cannot be trusted.. it is the children. The dog is acting exactly how the dog has been shown to act AND the dog is acting how dogs DO act. 

You expect an awful lot (too much in my opinion), especially from this breed, to not react to violent behavior from very yong children. 

You were simply VERY lucky with the last dog. 

Again, please READ. You can learn a LOT.


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## kennedyzoe (Mar 2, 2008)

Sorry for the confusion, let me answer some of the points you brought up.

First, This was not the same kid and I do not think the dog thought it was (The first child was black and the second was white). No, I am not racist and I don't think a dog can be either without training but I think they notice a difference.

Second I did not hit my dog.... ever. The dog was punished the first time by me scolding the dog and he immediately rolled on his back submissively. I then PLACED my hand on his neck, looked him in the eyes and said no. The dog was allowed to get up and stood quietly while the adults cared to the childs injury.

No %$& its the fault of the parents (me) thats why I am asking for advice. I am going to keep these dogs and I will have another dog when they pass. I have lived with dogs for 37 years and this is the only time any of them have ever bitten anyone.

Thank you for your advice. You said I reacted innappropriatly twice. How was I supposed to react?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Jake was not the 'normal' dog. He would have made a great candidate for a Therapy Dog....they get poked, prodded, grabbed and don't react. 
Your reaction was both normal and unreasonable. Unreasonable from the standpoint that punishment somehow teaches the dog. They do not 'reason' that a bite = consequences/punishment from you. They only see you standing there, yelling at them/threatening them even more. A further breakdown in trust.
So, what to do? If these were my dogs I'd be standing right there whenever a 3 year old showed up. I'd show the child how to approach the dogs and I'd be watching for the 1st sign of a problem from my dogs...you mentioned the low growl...that was actually the 4th or 5th sign of a problem. The 1st is an intent/focused/scared look (trapped/want to run/can't), the 2nd is a stiffening of the body, the 3rd is a slight lip curl, a growl, then a bite. All the warning signs were ignored and from the dogs standpoint.....what the hell does he have to do? How many times/ways does he have to say "backoff"?
That's not meant to bash you...just trying to explain the situation from the dogs perspective.


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## kennedyzoe (Mar 2, 2008)

Thanks Tooney,

Like I said I was sitting above the dog and could not have seen a lip curl but he probable did do it. He probable did stiffen up to but since I was not looking for that I didn't notice. In fact I was actually encouraging the child, saying "isn't he a pretty dog just like yours" and was watching the child more than the dog. 

Live and learn.

Thanks for you help.

What do you suggest I do other than punish the dog. Obviously quickly seperating them is a no brainer but than what? When I wanted to teach them not to bark at the doorbell I would "shhh" them with a stern look everytime the bell rang and they barked. They learned not to bark quickly.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

You posted at the same time I did:

Punishing the dog was inapprpriate. The way to react is to separate, as quickly as possible, the dog and the victim (any victim). Punishing the dog only makes the dog's reaction the correct reaction _from the dog's standpoint. _

The dog perceived a threat or has a low tolerance for abuse.. and (in the first case) after SEVERAL times being abused by the same kid, figured that more abuse would happen and so the dog bit the kid.. and still more abuse ensued, so the dog was right.. he was in an abusive situation and needed to protect himself. 

In the second scenario, the dog has not forgotten the first scenario and his bite threshold was lowered (from the abuse from the kid and then from his owner). He KNOWS kids are abusive and a threat, so he prevented abuse by biting.. and he was correct again.. because yu punished him and that, from the dog's point of view, was more abuse! In both cases, from the dog's point of view, the dog was correct to protect himself because he KNOWS that strange kids = abuse.

For the third time, to REALLY understand why dogs bite and why the first dog you had was UNUSUAL, PLEASE READ:

"Culture Clash: by Jean Donaldson 
"The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell 

Both these authors can show you ways to:
1.) undrstand why dogs bite 
2.) avoid dog bites from your dogs
3.) help you in training your dogs not to bite 

This is not meant to bash you either. I can tell you that punishing the dog.. making the dog go into a submissive stnace.. all of that really is telling your dog that, in addition to kids, the dog cannot trust you. 

There is more to being a leader than forcing those lower on the ladder to submit to the leader. Being a leader is more being an individual that those lower on the ladder to want to follow. Works that way with people too.

The appropriate reaction is to be vigilant and avoid the situation. Read the above books and understand what to watch for and what is going on with the dog. Prevention, just like with fires, is 9/10ths of the cure.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I definitely second Elana on this one. 'The Other End of the Leash' is next on my list of books to read and 'Culture Clash' was VERY helpful.

I borrowed Culture Clash from our behaviorist/trainer. If the problem seems to escalate I would suggest seeking a behaviorist to help solve the problem and they may be able to help you see the signs your dog is giving you that he is uncomfortable with the situation.


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## kennedyzoe (Mar 2, 2008)

I do plan on getting the other end of the leash tomorrow when the library opens. Why are library's closed on Sunday? Wouldn't that be the most frequent time that kids actually need library's?

As far as submissive posing... I understand that making him submissive at that point was wrong but I am wondering your opinions on submission in general. I was told that placing dogs on their backs (comfortable, I know it can be painful for some dogs) when they are very young and holding them gently their until they relax and trust you is very important. I was told that once they willingly lay on their backs submissively they are acknowledging that you are the pack leader and then they actually want to please you. So far I have found this to be quite true with these two. They don't shy away from us in any way (I have seen dogs that drop their heads everytime a certian person walks by, mine don't). They seem eager to please and willing to let us do whatever we want without protest (or fear). For example, my youngest child can walk up to one while eating a bone and simply take it away without the dog protesting. They always get it back, but they sit quietly waiting for a minute or so.

We learned this from a friend, admittedly not a pro, who has an extremely well behaved dog.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Ideally, we would never have to punish our dogs but, let's back-up to the beginning. Let the dog go to the child, not the other way around. Now the dog isn't trapped into accepting what's coming (whether he likes it or not)...doesn't have to be defensive and avoids punishment for a wrong reaction.
The reality is we're not always going to be able to head off the problems...we can train, we can manage the environment and most situations but, can still be caught off-guard. When that happens, the best we can do is separate the dog from the conflict (like you said) and try not to be caught off guard again.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't go along with the whole pack leader submissive thing. Dogs are dogs, not wolves and they have a different pack structure from wolves. Again.. well explained in "The Other End of the Leash."

I know people who subscribe to the whole pack leader dominance thing.. but in "Culture Clash" Jean Donaldson has very convincing arguments against all of this. She has convinced me and I came from another school on training dogs.. and I am old.. so it is HARD for me to learn new tricks. 

I keep referring to these two authors for a reason.  

Training a dog not to guard food has nothing to do with submission, pack leaders or any of the rest. It has to do with training the dog to share and never letting gurading or agression start. It is harder in some breeds and some individual dogs than others. 

I have a kitten who can go up to my German Shepherd and take food right out of her mouth and she wags her tail. I have seen him reach in her mouth with a paw when she is eating a biscuit. They share her Kong with Peanut butter in it. Do you really believe that the Cat is Dominant in the Pack over the dog? The cat weighs 8 pounds and the dog weighs 65 pounds. This is their interaction, and has nothing to do with me and nothing to do with submission. 

My dog is not aggressive and has a very very high bite threshold. I think that she will make a good therapy dog because of this. My last GSD had a lower bite threshold, EXCEPT with kids.. and they could do more to her than anyone. It is an individual dog thing and is partly training and partly the dog itself. 

My dog is very well behaved and I never dumped her on her back or any of the rest of that pack leader, dominant/submissive stuff. 

Like I said.. being a leader is not so much forcing others to follow. Leadership works a lot better when they fall in line because you have shown you are worth following.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

kennedyzoe said:


> As far as submissive posing... I understand that making him submissive at that point was wrong but I am wondering your opinions on submission in general. I was told that placing dogs on their backs (comfortable, I know it can be painful for some dogs) when they are very young and holding them gently their until they relax and trust you is very important. I was told that once they willingly lay on their backs submissively they are acknowledging that you are the pack leader and then they actually want to please you.


You are correct in the first part...this is about trust.....it's not about dominance, pack hierachy or punishment. That trust is developed for grooming, physical exams...trust in you in or anyone else that needs to inspect the dog. Trust that no harm will come to them while in this vulnerable position.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Given that these are Dals, you did exactly the wrng thing. 

Dalmatians are a guardian breed, and they need careful handling. Over the top methods that involve forcing submissive behaviors generally work very, very poorly on these dogs. Non-confrontational resource control metholds (NILIF in particular) need to become a WAY Of LIfE for this dog. 

In addition to "the Other End of the Leash", I'd recommend Susan Garrett's Ruff Love book, which deals more specifically with dogs who have acted aggressively in the past. At this point, though, you've got a behavior pattern, not just an isolated incident. You need to address this in person with a local POSITIvE trainer (I would recommend looking at IACBA consultants- people like Leslie McDervit and Emma Parsons first) who can help you to resolve this issue. 

In the short term- I would NOT allow this dog to sleep on ANYONE's bed- get him a crate or at least a dog bed and haev him sleep therde. No being on furniture w/out permission,and he needs to sit and/or down for _everything_- to go out, to haev you put the food bowl down, to haev the leash put on- everything. 

Also? It's DalmatiAN. You might want to do some reading about the breed. While they're traditionally firemen's dogs, they have a much longer history than that.

Cait (sorry for typos- keyboard is full of collie hair)


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

I would like to add also that while he may see you as the "pack leader" , Alpha, whatever, the strong dominance training might have added to the kid problem. He may see you as leader, then him, then anyone else. Hence, he needs to protect you from everyone, including 3 year old kids. Dalmatians can typically be very attached to and protective of one person. Also, they are generally not a breed that is accepting of small children. I am looking for a puppy, and though I love them I am not considering them because I have small children. I lived with one for about a year (roomates) and loved her but she is quite nervous around small kids.

Any dog can and will bite in the right circumstances, I myself have learned this the hard way, very recently. A chihuahua can and will bite just as easily as a pit bull if not properly trained and socialized.

Also, just because a dog "knows" it has a safe place doesn't mean it's first insinct is to run. A dog has several options (ie fight or flight) all dogs are different in which one they will choose. How many humans turn and run when faced by a scary situation? If you thought someone was going to harm you and you kept warning and nothing happened would you turn and run or give a pre-emptive strike? Perhaps you could try introducing new children while the dog is in a crate?


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

Well...I have 5 dogs and my kids are around them and have learned to have manners around them. At age 3 my youngest has to be reminded on occasion not to put his face into the animals face- like the new feral fosterkitty we have right now. Taught right from the start, he may not understand, but he trusts me. He was also taught not to go up to dogs, but ask them to come to him and if strange dogs dont like to, he will leave it alone- he will let me know about it, but he will leave it alone. I understand that he is most likely the exception to the rule, but I'm just trying to let you know that it can and should be taught. As for the dog- he had a bad first experience, he most likely gave his warnings, but you may not have seen them from your angle. I would keep him separate, but maybe where he can see kids, they would just not be allowed to come pet him- maybe let the kids know that the dog is in "time out" because he doesnt play nice? That is something they understand, but it will give the dog the room to observe without feeling threatened. When I get new dogs in the house, no one touches them at least for 24 hours- they are where they can see whats going on, not locked up somewhere, so they can calm down, observe and relax. By the time we get ready for the next step, they are more open for introductions and less scared.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I think this is to do with the dogs past experience with "kids that shouldnt be around dogs".

Reading the OP your dogs dont seem like they woke up one morning and decided on kid biting as their new hobby?

My friend has a JRT and he (unfortunatley) on a few ocassions has bitten kids due to bad experiences with them.
Dogs have memorys too so they will associate past bad experiences and react.
However my daughter is fine with the dog and i have no qualms in letting her joyfully play with him.

I think your decision not to let "strange" kids near is a good one though,also if you get really nervous around kids because you are scared of what might happen,then you might just pass these vybes onto the dog.
Confidence is the key,good luck.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

Is it possible dogs tend to nip children on the nose as a form of discipline analogous to biting an errant puppy on the snout?


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

tcasby said:


> Is it possible dogs tend to nip children on the nose as a form of discipline analogous to biting an errant puppy on the snout?


I actually read this the other day- it said this is one reason it is so imperative to teach bite inhibition in puppyhood.


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## scintillady (Dec 13, 2007)

My dog, Susie, was terrified of children from the time I got her when she was about 9 years old. I can only assume that she was mistreated by children in the past. Any time children were around when we were out and about, I made sure to tell them that she was scared of them and that it wasn't a good idea to come near her. If a child did persist in coming near her, she WOULD nip at them, so I kept a really short leash on her just in case. I felt bad that the kids couldn't come around her, and she never got over this before she died, but I accepted it and just made sure she wasn't around little kids. She was fine with adults, but was still kind of neurotic, as far as she tended to go after people's feet if they moved too quickly. Who knows what horrors she went through before I got her, but I loved her, personality disorders and all! She was a challenge, but worth it.


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

I guess I'll take the minority opinion. 

I have zero tolerance for dogs who bite people (unless the dog is doing its job of course). I really love dogs, but I really don't care what the dog's excuse was. There just isn't any excuse. None.

In this case if I read it correctly the kid got off without major injury. Thank the Lord for your good fortune, give your dog a great big hug, and then take it to be destroyed. It's okay to shed a few tears -- I know I would -- but those don't excuse you from doing what needs to be done. Don't give it the chance to hurt another kid

And if it helps consider this. Every day thousands of dogs are destroyed at animal shelters, dogs guilty of nothing more than being inconvenient. They didn't bite anyone. They just existed. Give one of them a chance instead of cujo.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

Taking the "minority opinion" isn't always the high ground. This dog has bit two children (erratic, choppy motions and high pitch voices and all) for invading its personal space. It seems the dog warned both kids and the warnings didn't work. The dog then responded with a quick, extremely inhibited bite. There is very little dangerous about this dog. Want a quick fix? Don't let little kids near him. Then you can start working on some reconditioning exercises. This is not a dog that needs to be put down and to suggest so is ridiculous.


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

rvamutt said:


> Taking the "minority opinion" isn't always the high ground. This dog has bit two children (erratic, choppy motions and high pitch voices and all) for invading its personal space. It seems the dog warned both kids and the warnings didn't work. The dog then responded with a quick, extremely inhibited bite. There is very little dangerous about this dog. Want a quick fix? Don't let little kids near him. Then you can start working on some reconditioning exercises. This is not a dog that needs to be put down and to suggest so is ridiculous.



I am not claiming the high ground. Only the safe ground. I am not saying that it is impossible to correct this through training, but rather that there is no guarantee that the effort would be effective, and you won't KNOW for sure until the dog has failed. Sorry.... failed _again_. 

The next time the results might be a disaster.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

kennedyzoe said:


> I do plan on getting the other end of the leash tomorrow when the library opens. Why are library's closed on Sunday? Wouldn't that be the most frequent time that kids actually need library's?
> 
> As far as submissive posing... I understand that making him submissive at that point was wrong but I am wondering your opinions on submission in general. I was told that placing dogs on their backs (comfortable, I know it can be painful for some dogs) when they are very young and holding them gently their until they relax and trust you is very important. I was told that once they willingly lay on their backs submissively they are acknowledging that you are the pack leader and then they actually want to please you. So far I have found this to be quite true with these two. They don't shy away from us in any way (I have seen dogs that drop their heads everytime a certian person walks by, mine don't). They seem eager to please and willing to let us do whatever we want without protest (or fear). For example, my youngest child can walk up to one while eating a bone and simply take it away without the dog protesting. They always get it back, but they sit quietly waiting for a minute or so.
> 
> We learned this from a friend, admittedly not a pro, who has an extremely well behaved dog.


DO NOT place the dog nor have anyone else (especially a child) put the dog in a so called "alpha Roll" Submission of that sort should ALWAYS be VOLUNTARY as it is in nature. The ONLY time a dominant member of a wolf or dog pack forces submission is to KILL OR MAIM. Get a behaviorist, NOT your 'friend' to help you wit hthe fear your dog is feeling (that's WHY he bit in the first place) in the mean time, your dog should never be around ANY child without close supervision. In fact NO dog should EVER be around young children unsupervised, it's a recipe for disaster. 

When your Nieces come over, put the dog in a quiet safe place where the kids can't mess with it. This will insure that there will be no bites. WARNING your dog WILL escalate the fear aggression oif this isn't taken care of. YOU need to be sure your dog feels safe in his own house, Here are some more book suggestions.

CHILD-PROOFING YOUR DOG
by Brian Kilcommons 

LIVING WITH KIDS AND DOGS...WITHOUT LOSING YOUR MIND
by Colleen Pelar 

For you to give a copy to each of your sibs with kids
MAY I PET YOUR DOG? THE HOW-TO GUIDE FOR KIDS MEETING DOGS 
by Stephanie Calmenson 

helpful web sites for you and your family members with kids
http://www.doggonesafe.com/
http://www.dogsandkids.ca/
http://dogs.about.com/cs/childrenanddogs/a/child_safety.htm


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I am not claiming the high ground. Only the safe ground.


Really, the safe ground would be to not own a dog at all.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

I just wanted to thank everyone for the book and website suggestions. I have checked the sites and have the books on a list to get before we bring a dog home.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Chris_Texas said:


> I guess I'll take the minority opinion.
> 
> I have zero tolerance for dogs who bite people (unless the dog is doing its job of course). I really love dogs, but I really don't care what the dog's excuse was. There just isn't any excuse. None.



An appalling attitude. In China, the police beat dogs with a stick and if they snap or growl they're executed on the spot. Last summer 7 kids beat a puppy to death...he tried to defend himself by biting a couple of the kids but the kids won. 
It's the humans who are abusive, invasive and don't respect the dogs boundaries or emotional well being. To expect a dog not to defend himself when he's being threatened is illogical and mean spirited.


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## Absolutediamond (Mar 4, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> Last summer 7 kids beat a puppy to death...he tried to defend himself by biting a couple of the kids but the kids won.
> It's the humans who are abusive, invasive and don't respect the dogs boundaries or emotional well being. To expect a dog not to defend himself when he's being threatened is illogical and mean spirited.


That is terrible. That just turned my stomach. Parents need to take some damn responsiblity for their own kids! That angers me so badly


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

I know, it's very sad that so many people believe that if a dog growls, or shows it teeth it deserves to be severely punished or destroyed. They don't care if the dog is deathly afraid for his survival or not...they just know they are the master and it's not acceptable. They have no interest in doing any real training, building trust or instilling confidence so things like this don't happen.
I'm sure the kids felt 'justified' in what they did once the dog tried to defend itself.


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## Absolutediamond (Mar 4, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> I'm sure the kids felt 'justified' in what they did once the dog tried to defend itself.


Truly upsetting to an animal lover <3. I hate the reaction from people who dont own animals or that just dont think animals have a mind of their own, and their own fears, when a dog snaps or growls out of fear or self defense!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Chris_Texas said:


> I guess I'll take the minority opinion.
> 
> I have zero tolerance for dogs who bite people (unless the dog is doing its job of course). I really love dogs, but I really don't care what the dog's excuse was. There just isn't any excuse. None.
> 
> ...


I don't think a dog should be automatically doomed. You have t oconsider several things before making that call.

Severity of the bite, was the bite inhibited? Could it be that the dog misjudged or the person bitten moved the wrong way when the dog snapped?

WHy the dog bit, was it being abused at the time? Was thre dog clearly showing fear and did the owner try to get the dog away from the fearful object?

Did the dog move forward with the INTENT to bite whether with or without warning?

Was the bite ACTUALLY aggressive or was it in play. I take this tack because when I get my Dobe at six months old she hadn't been taught not to bite in play, my hands were scraped from her teeth for a week before I finally got this through to her!!!! Thank goodness she was small for her age when I got her!


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

RonE said:


> Really, the safe ground would be to not own a dog at all.



True. Absolutely true. Owning a dog is a tremendous responsibility. But it has it's rewards 



TooneyDogs said:


> An appalling attitude. In China, the police beat dogs with a stick and if they snap or growl they're executed on the spot. Last summer 7 kids beat a puppy to death...he tried to defend himself by biting a couple of the kids but the kids won.


People can be pretty horrible can't they. 



> It's the humans who are abusive, invasive and don't respect the dogs boundaries or emotional well being. To expect a dog not to defend himself when he's being threatened is illogical and mean spirited.


This is all a slippery slope, but it seems to me that you are confusing a Dog's moral innocence with freedom from responsibility or repurcussion. A Dog defending himself or his owners from a mob of brain hungry zombies is a hero. A dog who "defends" himself from a toddler in a stroller outside his fence or the girlscout dropping off a box of cookies is a monster. Now you might (probably would) defend the latter, MOST here will take the side of the Dog no matter what, but the excuses and rationalizations don't mean a thing to the parent of the next victim.



cshellenberger said:


> I don't think a dog should be automatically doomed. You have t oconsider several things before making that call.
> 
> Severity of the bite, was the bite inhibited? Could it be that the dog misjudged or the person bitten moved the wrong way when the dog snapped?
> 
> ...


I am considering the following facts:

1. The dog was an adult
2. The dog was apparently "trained" and certainly not abused
3. This is the SECOND attack by this dog
4. The victim was a little girl
5. The attack was witnessed, the girl did nothing to provoke the attack 

And if nothing else, here's the BIG one....

The owner's gut is telling him that he cannot trust the dog. 

I would LOVE to post pictures of real dog bites here to help make it clear what they are advising this guy to risk.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Chris_Texas said:


> This is all a slippery slope, but it seems to me that you are confusing a Dog's moral innocence with freedom from responsibility or repurcussion.
> 
> 
> I am considering the following facts:
> ...


No confusion...I have no problem with a dog issuing the warning, "Stay back... I'm afraid." I'll respect that and won't force a dog to endure something he can't handle. I don't understand why you find this unacceptable. Moral highground? He's a coward....should be able to take whatever we dish out without complaint...afraid or not?
Help me understand why a dog that has been taught by circumstance (remember the 1st bite was very much provoked) is now a bad dog and should be destroyed for taking an appropriate defense when threatened once again. (Again, another little girl, same as before...a face to face treat and all the warning signs either missed, ignored or were not addressed or trained for after the 1st incident).
I think you view provocation as simply abuse....provocation is also invading the dogs space, challenging him face to face, threatening him by coming over the top of him or even frantic arm/hand/foot motions in his direction as if to hit him....all the things children do wrong because they don't know any better. 
You mentioned responsibity and repurcussions...who should have the greater share of these....the dog or the child?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

There are, on occaision, dogs that bite with intent and not out of fear or out of mismanagement or out of lack of training. Those dogs, that show a real intent to bite, are probably not trainable and likley being PTS is the answer. 

In this case, with this dog, the dog has quite literally been trained that:

1.) toddlers, especially little girls, are dangerous (from the first incident where the dog was repeatedly attacked with no intervention).

2.) No one is going to intervene so dealing with dangerous toddlers is up to the dog. 

In the first incident, the dog was provoked. In the second incident, in dog language, the child was being rude by placing her paws on either side of the dog's head (dogs don't LIKE this from other dogs) and was staring into the dogs face.. face to face (another rude, space invading behavior from the dog's perspective). 

Sorry, but in both instances, the dog handler was not aware of what is and is not "rude" from the dog's perspective and was not aware that the dog was being trained to take matters into his own jaws. 

The dog should not be destroyed for either of these incidences. *The handler needs training* to understand dogs and the dog needs to be kept away from children until the handler gets that training and can train the dog. _I commend him (OP) for going seeking that training as he stated he plans to do!!_ 

Yes. Kids get bitten badly and people get bitten badly every day. Dogs get destroyed for those attacks. 

Yet, in *almost* _every_ instance it was the handler's fault for not intervening sooner or the child's parents fault for not being more cautious with their kids aorund dogs. *Almost every bite or attack was preventable if someone had been paying attention*

Chris:
I do not agree with destroying every dog for every bite to a human. The most placid dog has a bite threshold. If some human being, child or adult, erodes the dog's patience beyond that threshold, the dog will bite. Period. Dogs have teeth and biting is what they do. If they had hands, they might punch or wring necks.. but they only have teeth, so they bite.

If you want to avoid all dog bites, Ron said it best, Don't have dogs. Don't have kids or adults around dogs. Sterilize your world from dogs. 

Every one of the dogs waiting on Death row to replace the dog that has just bitten someone is also capable and likely to bite if its threshold is surpassed or lowered by inappropriate human behavior. 

Meanwhile, if a kid or adult comes over to my dog and does anything inappropriate (even if it is petting the dog w/o my permission or by not follwoing the instructions I give on HOW to approach and pet the dog), I am surely going to remove my dog, or that human, from the situation. 

Trust me on this.. the one to be removed, with quick efficiency and dispatch, will likely be the human.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Chris-Texas

*Meanwhile, if a kid or adult comes over to my dog and does anything inappropriate (even if it is petting the dog w/o my permission or by not follwoing the instructions I give on HOW to approach and pet the dog), I am surely going to remove my dog, or that human, from the situation.*

elana55 has hit the nail on the head. Our personal house dog is a dog that at 9 months of age did some growling in household with kids, no bites. Owners did not want to take chance so dog is now 8 yrs old and rules our house and growling at me. I do not understand why owner on 1st occasion did not remove her dog immediately from unruly child but that's water under the bridge. New home for dog or present owner is going to have to do some environment changes. You know how that goes for some people it's a lot easier to dump the dog. I don't consider new home for dog done properly is a dog dump. I'm talking about the other kind. My Opinion Only.


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## Melou1889 (Feb 26, 2008)

My dog gets very upset at bikes. I was holding him one day because a friend was riding his bike and the dog freaked and turned around grabbed my arm. I was so furious i jumped him, not that it does much.. he can carry me. I can not trust him around bikes.


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> No confusion...I have no problem with a dog issuing the warning, "Stay back... I'm afraid." I'll respect that and won't force a dog to endure something he can't handle. I don't understand why you find this unacceptable. Moral highground? He's a coward....should be able to take whatever we dish out without complaint...afraid or not?
> Help me understand why a dog that has been taught by circumstance (remember the 1st bite was very much provoked) is now a bad dog and should be destroyed for taking an appropriate defense when threatened once again. (Again, another little girl, same as before...a face to face treat and all the warning signs either missed, ignored or were not addressed or trained for after the 1st incident).
> I think you view provocation as simply abuse....provocation is also invading the dogs space, challenging him face to face, threatening him by coming over the top of him or even frantic arm/hand/foot motions in his direction as if to hit him....all the things children do wrong because they don't know any better.
> You mentioned responsibity and repurcussions...who should have the greater share of these....the dog or the child?



It's irrelevant who was responsible. It's irrelevant WHY it happened initially or even with this last or (heaven forbid) the next incident. What IS relevant is that this is a dog that, for good reason or bad, believes that biting little kids is okay. 

But the truth is that it is NOT okay. It is not okay with the parents of the next victim, it's not okay with the owners of the dog or their insurance company, it's not okay with the police, the city council, the state assembly, or with society in general. And it is not even okay with most dog owners and trainers -- only a tiny number of those are so blinded by their love that they confuse UNDERSTANDING with ACCEPTANCE. 

This is a real question. It is not some internet excercise in theoretical training potential (_I could train that dog not to bite..._), it is not an opportunity for to boast the size of your heart or depth of your compassion (_I love dogs THIS much_), it's a real guy with a dog that he does not trust, a dog that bit his kid, and he doesn't know what to do. He doesn't need ego inflating BS, he just needs the truth. 

No matter what he does this dog could very well bite again. Over a thousand people a DAY are hospitalized for dog attacks, and the next time it could be his kid.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Chris_Texas said:


> In this case if I read it correctly the kid got off without major injury. Thank the Lord for your good fortune, give your dog a great big hug, and then take it to be destroyed. It's okay to shed a few tears -- I know I would -- but those don't excuse you from doing what needs to be done.


Chris_Texas, if a person is what they believe then you are cruel, unreasonable and just maybe a little bit crazy. I mean really. I don't even know what else to say about this. I just hope you don't have a dog, cause I feel bad for the poor thing already.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Max'sHuman said:


> Chris_Texas, if a person is what they believe then you are cruel, unreasonable and just maybe a little bit crazy. I mean really. I don't even know what else to say about this. I just hope you don't have a dog, cause I feel bad for the poor thing already.


I don't believe Chris_Texas attitude is bad at all. Kids are more important than dogs that's the way it is, He has a black-white approach to dog bites and that's his right. In my previous reply the dog that we got because of growling/no bites would not have been a good kid dog. How do I know this? 40 some years of training dogs. Don't get me wrong I'm not a pro-kid person especially the kids I see running around now. As far as I'm concerned dog should have nailed the 1st kid. That being said you still got to put welfare of kids 1st.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

I can see everyone's point of view. My grandmother has a shi-tzu that she got becasue the people that gave it to her had young kids that were mean to it. My children are taught to be respectful of animals and how to touch them. Even so, my 2 year old I stay with him around her because he is not old enough to comprehend or be trusted. Last summer when he was 18 months old, she came up to him- he did not approach her. We told him it was okay to pet her. Thank goodness we were there. He petted her very gently on her back and she was fine. He petted her again in the same way, same place and she snapped at his face. This is not the first kid this has happened to, they always made excuses about "why" she snapped at kids (actually has bitten a couple). I saw this one. There was no warning growl, she approached him, he was gentle and non-threatening. Oh, might I add she also bit my grandmother so bad she had to go to the ER and have a tetanus shot over a pork chop. Grandmother said that was her fault for not letting her have the pork chop. In all honestly, it was probably the original owner's fault, but then what do you do in that situation??? Feel sorry for the dog and hope in it's lifetime it doesn't seriously injure someone?

I guess my point is, if this had been a big dog, not a toy breed, I'm pretty sure they would have had her PTS. I know a small dog can cause as much damage as a large, but they don't see it that way. And in my opinon, unless you can say there will never be any kids around the dog in their lifetime, then you do have to weigh your options. But yes, there is a liabilty- of being sued and losing everything you have, not to mention the grief and guilt if your dog caused someone harm. It is a personal choice for everyone, everyone has an opinon and that is what makes discussions like this- but nobody should get jumped on for expressing opinions, IMHO. Can you train an adult dog not to bite? I'm not sure. Perhaps the best option for the OP (I couldn't figure out if he has kids or not, must have missed this) is to keep the dog crated when kids come over. Because how will he know if the training has worked unless another kid comes around, providing another biting opportunity?


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

But do you really think destroying the dog is the ONLY answer? I don't.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Max'sHuman said:


> But do you really think destroying the dog is the ONLY answer? I don't.


Honestly, if it were my dog and I had kids or planned on having them in the dog's lifetime I wuold probably turn it over to the breeder (if a reputable one that will take it back, of course) or a reputable breed rescue that can possibly place it in an adult-only house, maybe someone with lots of experience with that breed. I say probably because that is a hard, emotional decision for anybody in that situation and I feel for the OP.


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

Max'sHuman said:


> Chris_Texas, if a person is what they believe then you are cruel, unreasonable and just maybe a little bit crazy. I mean really. I don't even know what else to say about this. I just hope you don't have a dog, cause I feel bad for the poor thing already.


I have two actually, both "rescue" dogs. 

One was so abused that it would urinate if a human even looked in its direction or spoke to it. It took six months of work before I was able to pet it (and then only if I did not look at it). It only took me *thirteen years of work*, but today that dog is a mentally health and wonderfully socialized dog. You would never know. 

My second dog is brand new. We picked her up on her final day at the shelter. No one wanted her because she had issues. She is also one of the smartest and most loving dogs I have ever worked with. I spend hours with her every day.

I love both dearly. 

I love people more.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Alrite, now that I have calmed down (maybe I should have done that before posting the first time) I can almost say fair enough. I understand your impulse to protect children at all costs. It just seems dangerous to live in a world that is so black and white. How can you say that any dog that bites a child should be put down? Now, trust me here, I'm being facetious, why wouldn't you instead put the owner down? They're the ones responsible for letting a situation get out of hand and let small children abuse their dog. I would think their lack of judgement would be more dangerous. I mean say they do what you say and put the dog down and go get another one and allow the same sorts of things to happen. The new dog might end up biting a child again because the owner didn't teach their kids how to treat dogs. So who is causing the problem here? If you choose to have a dog, you are implicitly choosing to take care of it responsibly. That includes educating yourself and your children about a dog's behavior and training the dog.

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to always err on the side of the human just because you are human. I think somebody has to speak up for the dogs and give them a chance to succeed too. Maybe I'm the one with the problem for siding with the dog. But really, I think it's unfair to kill a creature that acted in it's own defense all because the owner just didn't know how to control the situation.

And btw, to the OP, I'm just making a point, I'm not saying that you acted maliciously, you didn't know any better. Hopefully, now you do and you can work to correct the situation. I am just saying that putting the dog down immediately is a lame cop-out and that kind of attitude scares me.


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

Max'sHuman said:


> Alrite, now that I have calmed down (maybe I should have done that before posting the first time) I can almost say fair enough. I understand your impulse to protect children at all costs. It just seems dangerous to live in a world that is so black and white. How can you say that any dog that bites a child should be put down? Now, trust me here, I'm being facetious, why wouldn't you instead put the owner down? They're the ones responsible for letting a situation get out of hand and let small children abuse their dog. I would think their lack of judgement would be more dangerous. I mean say they do what you say and put the dog down and go get another one and allow the same sorts of things to happen. The new dog might end up biting a child again because the owner didn't teach their kids how to treat dogs. So who is causing the problem here? If you choose to have a dog, you are implicitly choosing to take care of it responsibly. That includes educating yourself and your children about a dog's behavior and training the dog.
> 
> Anyway, I don't think it's fair to always err on the side of the human just because you are human. I think somebody has to speak up for the dogs and give them a chance to succeed too. Maybe I'm the one with the problem for siding with the dog. But really, I think it's unfair to kill a creature that acted in it's own defense all because the owner just didn't know how to control the situation.
> 
> And btw, to the OP, I'm just making a point, I'm not saying that you acted maliciously, you didn't know any better. Hopefully, now you do and you can work to correct the situation. I am just saying that putting the dog down immediately is a lame cop-out and that kind of attitude scares me.



I am black and white about this because I think it's important. More than that actually. It's CRITICAL. If those of us who know dogs wont set a standard then who will? Certainly not the owners already making excuses. 

For the welfare of humans AND canines that standard has got to be: NO BITING. No biting if you're scared, no biting if master takes back his pork chop, no biting if you want more pets or less, no biting kids or mailmen or neighbors, no biting EVER. If we are willing to make excuses then we are surrendering the whole debate to the people who want to ban our furry family members -- we are saying that every dog is a potential menace, and the really scary dogs are nothing more than tail-wagging Jeff Dahmers.

Many communities are already moving to ban scary dogs like Pit Bulls and Rots and Shepherds and Labs and Dobbies and, well, pretty much everything bigger than a teacup. I don't want that. 

But here's the facts: almost 5 million people a year are attacked by dogs; the number and severity of the bites is growing. Unless we stop making excuses and control the situation THEY are gonna control it for us, and the solution they arrive at is not going to be "Blame the kids".


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

I wonder what kind of dog you own? I have no respect for a dog that won't defend itself, none at all. If my dog was aggressive towards kids guess what I'd do? Not let him near kids. Same goes for women, cats, other dogs, etc. Dogs can't ask us to stop, many times they can't just walk away and so they let us know we've gone too far the only way possible, with their teeth. 

The only way you could make sure that a dog will not bite is too continually breed only the most docile of each breed, with personality, character, and form taking a backseat. We'd end up with 200 breeds that all act like a Golden Retriever. If I wanted a dog like that then I'd buy one. I prefer bully and guardian breeds for their own unique personality.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Chris_Texas
*My second dog is brand new. We picked her up on her final day at the shelter. No one wanted her because she had issues. She is also one of the smartest and most loving dogs I have ever worked with. I spend hours with her every day.
I love both dearly.
I love people more.
*

Let me ask you this we have murderers do you believe in the death penalty for them. They're obviously much smarter than dogs. I'm not that much of a people lover so it's easier for me. Put em down. *I still stick up for your right to think as you do.* But absolutely nothing in life is black and white. There are extenuating circumstances on most things you encounter in life. Remaining that inflexible is kind of scary to me. What was even scarier is the remark comparing biting dogs to Jeff Dahmers. That's way out in left field. I would hope if you feel this strongly on the subject you are hitting your city/county/state/country governments and making a push for stronger laws on the owners who in reality are ones that are responsible. Instead of fining them etc, pop em in jail for a couple years etc. Then when they spend their 1st night in jail the dogs can also be PTSed. That works for me.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am not one to make a bunch of excuses for an owner with a biting dog. I am more of the type to say the owner must be responsible when something like this happens. The first time, not just wait for it to happen over and over. (Not saying that is what the OP did.) I am also not one to say kill the dog no matter the reason for the bite. Do we not owe our dogs anything? Protection from the attacks of a child? Kids don't know better unless they are taught, either by parents or the owner of a dog. I would not allow my dog to be jumped on by any child at any time. There is NO EXCUSE for it. I don't allow kids to maul my dogs. I protect my dogs from the advances of children. That said, I expect my dogs to behave well around the kids and they do. They do because they know I am on the alert and will protect them from the kids. My dogs are never allowed around kids without me right there. I WON'T blame the dog in this situation. Why was the dog jumped on repeatedly by a child? Why should the dog have to take that? Because Humans are more important then dogs? Does that mean if I feel like it I should be able to kick the crap out of my dog and it should not defend itself in any way? That is ridiculous. IMO If my dog ever snapped at anyone whether successful or not He/She would be in major training boot camp, health tests done and every possible solution to the behavior, but I wouldn't even think about killing a dog because I was not responsible enough to protect him/her from the advances of a child on more then one occasion. We do have to be smarter then the dog after all.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

It is kind of interesting but here is a factoid I got somewhere.. Most dogs are allowed ONE bite (case law). 

Now, this is not a bite that completely removes someone's face etc, but one bite that might send someone to the ER for a puncture wound.

Even the Courts recognize that a dog is a dog and dogs bite.. and don't paint dogs with a black and white brush. 

Life is mostly shades of grey. Some may be very dark and some may be very light but rarely is anything one of the other. A desert is dry, but there is some water. A river is wet, yet there are usually dry sand bars or rocks. 

Zero tolerance is usually pretty over the top. Zero tolerance is pretty dangerous thinking. Zero tolearnace is all or nothing and little in life or in reality it all or nothing. 

That being said, I also recognize that dog bites are becoming more prevalent (probably because we are moving farther and farther from everyone being around animals of all kinds on a regular basis, so most people lack common sense around animals). Lack of manners on the part of humans (adults and children) is also becoming more common. How often do you hear: May I please pet you dog? How do I pet a dog? May my child please pet your dog? No? Ok, I understand. 

While dog bites are becoming more prevalent, people and the courts are becoming less tolerant. 

Those of us who own dogs should educate ourselves to the extreme and learn all we can about how to prevent dog bites. 

Sadly, those of use who choose to be educated about dog behavior and who avoid putting our dogs in situations where they might bite will always be up against the ignorant folk who are not careful dog owners.

And we all are up against ignorant people, parents and children who cannot connect with anything like common sense.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> Given that these are Dals, you did exactly the wrng thing.
> 
> Dalmatians are a guardian breed, and they need careful handling. Over the top methods that involve forcing submissive behaviors generally work very, very poorly on these dogs. Non-confrontational resource control metholds (NILIF in particular) need to become a WAY Of LIfE for this dog.
> 
> ...


I second what you said  

Are you sure it's not your dogs that are doing the typing for you??? Tehehe!!



Elana55 said:


> It is kind of interesting but here is a factoid I got somewhere.. Most dogs are allowed ONE bite (case law).
> 
> Now, this is not a bite that completely removes someone's face etc, but one bite that might send someone to the ER for a puncture wound.
> 
> Even the Courts recognize that a dog is a dog and dogs bite.. and don't paint dogs with a black and white brush.


I am not 'totally' with you on what you are stating here, because MN's 'one bite law' includes even so little as a dog having jumped up and scratched someone with his claws!!! And many state's "one bite laws" are like this... people can sue a dog owner for as little as a dog scratch, these days; which is why it is important we carefully train our dogs.



Inga said:


> I am not one to make a bunch of excuses for an owner with a biting dog. I am more of the type to say the owner must be responsible when something like this happens. The first time, not just wait for it to happen over and over. (Not saying that is what the OP did.) I am also not one to say kill the dog no matter the reason for the bite. Do we not owe our dogs anything? Protection from the attacks of a child? Kids don't know better unless they are taught, either by parents or the owner of a dog. I would not allow my dog to be jumped on by any child at any time. There is NO EXCUSE for it. I don't allow kids to maul my dogs. I protect my dogs from the advances of children. That said, I expect my dogs to behave well around the kids and they do. They do because they know I am on the alert and will protect them from the kids. My dogs are never allowed around kids without me right there. I WON'T blame the dog in this situation. Why was the dog jumped on repeatedly by a child? Why should the dog have to take that? Because Humans are more important then dogs? Does that mean if I feel like it I should be able to kick the crap out of my dog and it should not defend itself in any way? That is ridiculous. IMO If my dog ever snapped at anyone whether successful or not He/She would be in major training boot camp, health tests done and every possible solution to the behavior, but I wouldn't even think about killing a dog because I was not responsible enough to protect him/her from the advances of a child on more then one occasion. We do have to be smarter then the dog after all.



Well stated...I fully agree with you!!


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Hmmm....now assuming I don't refute that there are more dog bites now than before....why would you automatically think it's because dogs are becoming more vicious. I would think that the sheer growth in population of people and dogs means that the percentages or proportions are the same, but the numbers are higher. Your logic is flawed my friend.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Max'sHuman said:


> Hmmm....now assuming I don't refute that there are more dog bites now than before....why would you automatically think it's because dogs are becoming more vicious. I would think that the sheer growth in population of people and dogs means that the percentages or proportions are the same, but the numbers are higher. Your logic is flawed my friend.


Also, as in many things, there is more and better record-keeping and sharing, and the media also brings a whole new demension. Does anyone think 50 years ago there were databases with dogbites in them? Also, before people in Idaho didn't know about a dog bite in New York. Now, in the age of instant data and reports thru newspaper, tv, and the internet, those things are available in a moment, making it seem like there is "suddenly" a huge rise in dog bites.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Max'sHuman said:


> Hmmm....now assuming I don't refute that there are more dog bites now than before....why would you automatically think it's because dogs are becoming more vicious. I would think that the sheer growth in population of people and dogs means that the percentages or proportions are the same, but the numbers are higher. Your logic is flawed my friend.


I don't 'think' you were responding to my post, but in a sense, I do think that dogs are becoming more aggressive...why??? Because owners are becoming more careless... Last year, I think it was, there were more LABRADOR bites than any other year...LABS!!!! These are not the 'normal' nasty dog...but remember, any dog can become nasty with improper irresponsible training. For as many responsible owners as there are, there are just as many, if not more irresponsible ones who would rather let their dog out the back door to roam the streets to do their business. In my own neighbor hood, I never see anyone walking their dogs; they all are simply let out on a chain, or in back yards...how 'responsible' is that all the time? Dogs need more interaction than that allows...these dogs are also very 'kennel aggressive' too, when ever I walk by. I don't have a doubt in my mind that they would try to attack my dog if she got to close to their fence, maybe even me. That's due to them being pent up all the time, I'm sure. One night when I was walking a dog came out and tried to make chase after us...if I didn't have my walking stick to shag the dog off, he probably would have kept on. I have to walk quite a ways away from home, or drive to other parks to see people actually interacting with their dogs...sad. I don't know...it may not be a kind assumption to make that dogs are getting 'nastier' but from what I have seen, it may be a somewhat true one...but it's not the dog's fault, it is the responsibility of the owners.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

I don't have statistics on this, but I'd have to disagree that owners are becoming worse. I don't know, it seems like there is so much more information out there about positive reinforcement training, many more training businesses, and just, well, information in general that I don't think that's exactly it. I mean there are a lot more labs, so there will be more lab bites assuming owners aren't getting more knowledgeble. I also think JenTN made a great point. With the internet out there information is much more quickly and widely available. So now a dog bite in the middle of Kansas can be read about the next day all over the US. And god knows nobody reports on happy things. So the only stuff you read about dogs in the general media probably involve cloning, bites, aggression and abuse. Gives one a skewed sense of the world.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Chris ,
I have put TWO dogs down due to aggression problems, the first put 50 stitches in my Youngest daughters face (she was 4 at the time) when she was putting water down for him. It was an unprovoked attack, the dog was 'dead' the minute it happened ( I had AC remove him from my house while I was at the hospital with my daughter). 

The second bit the same child( years later), the bite ws not as severe ( a knick), I didn't see it happen,and I figured it was probably an accident as the dog had never aggressed before. I tried working with him, but he then attempted to bite my husband for nothing more than touching his crate. The dog was put down the next day. 

Both dogs were large powerful breeds, the first was adopted to our family by a rescue without informimg me that the dog had a known bite history. The second was a dog I raised from a pup. Both broke my heart. I have NO problem putting a dog down for aggression. However, I don't think this particular dog is aggressive, I think he's insecure because his OWNERS have not protected him. IF the owners take the proper steps the dog can be saved and reformed. It will take work not only with the dog, but with the children.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris_Texas said:


> I guess I'll take the minority opinion.
> 
> I have zero tolerance for dogs who bite people (unless the dog is doing its job of course). I really love dogs, but I really don't care what the dog's excuse was. There just isn't any excuse. None.


It sounds like you really shouldn't own a dog. Dogs bite,they don't even need an excuse sometimes, let's not forget they are an animal with no sense of morals, reasoning or responsibility. If you don't understand that this can happen at any given time then you should not have a dog. I am always on alert of my dogs posture, breathing and overall body language when we are around people, even more so when around children. If you think you don't need to take on that responsibility then don't get a dog! I'm not making an excuse for the dog that rips a girls face off but for the average bite of a dog. 


Chris_Texas said:


> I am black and white about this because I think it's important. More than that actually. It's CRITICAL. If those of us who know dogs wont set a standard then who will? Certainly not the owners already making excuses.
> 
> For the welfare of humans AND canines that standard has got to be: NO BITING. No biting if you're scared, no biting if master takes back his pork chop, no biting if you want more pets or less, no biting kids or mailmen or neighbors, no biting EVER. If we are willing to make excuses then we are surrendering the whole debate to the people who want to ban our furry family members -- we are saying that every dog is a potential menace, and the really scary dogs are nothing more than tail-wagging Jeff Dahmers .
> 
> Many communities are already moving to ban scary dogs like Pit Bulls and Rots and Shepherds and Labs and Dobbies and, well, pretty much everything bigger than a teacup. I don't want that..


Will you stop saying "scary dogs" you sound like you're five. And I do feel sorry for a dog who has to live with you and your expectations to keep a dog from doing what they naturally do when they are having a problem or trying to tell you that you need to do more training with them. My dog has snapped at me a few times. Once was really intense. I can't imagine what would have happened if I thought like you. I opted to improve on my leadership skills with him and I still trust him 100% 


Chris_Texas said:


> But here's the facts: almost 5 million people a year are attacked by dogs; the number and severity of the bites is growing. Unless we stop making excuses and control the situation THEY are gonna control it for us, and the solution they arrive at is not going to be "Blame the kids".


I have looked up statistics before and that number seems a bit fabricated. I think the number of bites growing is due to a lot of unethical people calling themselves breeders and also not breeding for temperment like with the lab. It's being crossed with other breeds and is bringing in an uneven temperment.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

I find this whole thread and all the different viewpoints in it extremely interesting, I think every single poster has had at least one statement/view point that makes sense/is sensible, but has anyone noticed that the OP hasn't even logged in for three days?

I haven't decided exactly where I come down on this subject yet, but you all have been posting some excellent advice. Hope the OP comes back to reap some of it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

cshellenberger

*Will you stop saying "scary dogs" you sound like you're five. And I do feel sorry for a dog who has to live with you and your expectations to keep a dog from doing what they naturally do when they are having a problem or trying to tell you that you need to do more training with them. My dog has snapped at me a few times. Once was really intense. I can't imagine what would have happened if I thought like you. I opted to improve on my leadership skills with him and I still trust him 100%*

As a dog trainer who through the years been bitten by dogs who had some attitude problems who then went on to be fine upstanding dogs.
I agree 100% with your statement. I'm wondering about OPs age he sounds young(course to me everybody's young) I remember vaguely when I was younger I had a black and white problem. You gotta get kicked in the head or butt a few times to understand that there as elana55 said some definite shades of gray in life. If he/she(I'm never sure of genders on posters) isn't younger means he/she may be operating with a closed mind. Tough to reason with closed mind. I'm out of this thread I think I've said enough.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Chris_Texas said:


> NO BITING. No biting if you're scared, no biting if master takes back his pork chop, no biting if you want more pets or less, no biting kids or mailmen or neighbors, no biting EVER.


I think what everyone is trying to say is that your 'standards' do not hold up to scientific fact. Pavlov discovered over 100 years ago that all dogs...repeat, all dogs....have a reflexive bite reaction. They cannot stop that reflex once it's triggered anymore than we can stop from blinking.
The problem is....people keep pulling the trigger either through ignorance or meanness. With all the money we spend on disposing of dogs, perhaps we would be better off spending it on owner education...for our sake and the dogs.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

You know, I can see Chris's point (to an extent) and everyone else's point. I think Chris is way too strict about any bite sends a dog to death. I think it really does matter why the dog was biting and if it was the first bite and was anything done to try to prevent the dog from biting again.

A dog biting in self defense particularly when hte kids or adult will not leave it alone I think is not a reason to put the dog to sleep. You cannot expect a dog to just completely take abuse and suck it up. THat's really not fair. In that case, the kid/adult needs to be kept away from the dog (For the dog's sake).

A dog that bit one time even in territorial aggression or fear aggression (and I'm not talking defending itself from a real threat but being aggressive over what it percieves as a threat but is not, like a dog afraid of strangers period) I think deserves a chance to have some one work with it to get it to get over it's issue. I hear though fear aggression though is the hardest to train not to bite (I knew of a Mastiff that was put to sleep cause it developed fear aggression. THe owners tried all sorts of training but I believe after the third snap at some one they decided it was best to put the dog to sleep).

I do think there is a point that the dog is better off put to sleep for all involved. I would agree with Chris about another dog posted here that had bitten people 5 times before the owners got a trainer to stop it (and turned out to bite again and did get PTS but I have to say for that dog I agreed with Chris before he bit the person's wife). I think at that point it's probably gone too far even if they hadn't tried properly (at that point probably going to be just too hard and too risky to try to train it out of hte habit). If they cannot be controlled besides sticking in a cage to keep them away from everyone, then they cannot have a good quality of life and they are dangerous to everyone around them.

It really depends on the situation and Chris, I think you are being too inflexible and sometimes I think people here might be a little too lenient as well.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

tigress

*It really depends on the situation and Chris, I think you are being too inflexible and sometimes I think people here might be a little too lenient as well.*

Well stated, and part of the obvious big problem as you said the situation that the OP sees and we repliers do not. When people call on phone and ask about problems I tell them I'm sorry, If I were to try to solve your problem on phone, we would have two fools talking, I'm trying to fix a problem with a dog I haven't seen or know at all and your listening to me. That does not make us the brightest bulbs in the box. To me that's the hard part on the forum and why being inflexible is tough. Especially with biting dogs, I have seen a lot of puppies start habits that the owners think is so cute and then as they get older it's not so cute anymore. At least with me it's an easier decision I'm not so much a people person, so if I'm not there to see the bite problem I do have the tendency give the dog the edge. My Opinion Only


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

Am I being too inflexible?

Yes. Of course. By the same token though, I simply do not accept the whole "Dog's bite so it's okay" line that several here have taken. I've owned a fair number of dogs as an adult, and been around a whole bunch more, and what I have seen is that most dogs do NOT bite, not easily, not without a damn good reason. The ones that do bite do it over and over while their owners make excuses. 

Is that the case here? Well, this particular dog is on bite number two. The first apparently took some provokation, the second none at all. When it attacks again (and really, I think we all know it probably will) odds are good that someone -- probably an innocent child -- will get hurt.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Chris_Texas said:


> Am I being too inflexible?
> 
> Yes. Of course. By the same token though, I simply do not accept the whole "Dog's bite so it's okay" line that several here have taken.


I think there is some misunderstanding...Biting is not OK...I think we all agree on that. Most of us put the blame for the problem on the owners and the training...the ones with the bigger brains...the ones who should know better. 
When the training skips over socialization, teaching bite inhibition, teaching object exchanges (to prevent resource guarding), building trust and confidence....and then the dog is provoked, teased, challenged and taunted in a myraid of ways we don't blame the dog or claim that he's a failure and deserves to forfeit his life.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Any dog that bites a child should be put down or be kept away from people. These dogs cannot be trusted with people or reformed. They are born with aggression issues that were not bred out of them. Remember dogs are animals and we shouldnt treat them as we do people. We need to respect our children before we respect our animals.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

pepino said:


> Any dog that bites a child should be put down or be kept away from people. These dogs cannot be trusted with people or reformed. They are born with aggression issues that were not bred out of them.


 I respectfully disagree with your statement on dogs being born with aggression issues. They are not born to have aggression problems any forms of aggressions are caused by people being irresponsible! For example, bringing a dog to dog parks is a dangerous idea. If a dog got into fight with other dog, both dogs will develop a dog aggression later on. Now, their owners couldn't understand why they are being aggressive with all dogs and later with people. 

Whoever those people that dogs lived with taught/encourage them to be aggressive. When a dog bit an adult person, his reason for biting that person is different than biting a young kid. I have seen parents being careless about their dogs and kids. The kids wouldn't respect the dog and parents didn't do anything about it. The dog wants to be left alone so he has to bit a kid to tell her back off. 




> Remember dogs are animals and we shouldnt treat them as we do people. We need to respect our children before we respect our animals.


 I absolutely agree. 

People should NEVER trust their dogs 100%, but their dogs MUST trust their owners 100%. My dogs are good with kids, dogs, and people, but I never say I trust my dogs 100%. It is a foolish thing for an owner to say I trust my dog because dogs can't think and rationalize like people do.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I never 100% trust my dogs around children. Period.

And my dogs have never bit or growled at them either!

This is somewhat of an old thread, but I think it needs to be said:

You should NEVER trust a dog with children alone, or in the presence of an unruly child. (maybe not trust the child or the dog!)

Dogs bite each other. They just do. Even in play, big difference between dogs and humans being our skin is softer, their's is tougher. So when a dog bites another as a serious warning to back off, the other dog's skin is not punctured, it heeds the warning and backs off, or they fight but that's another story.

With people, when dogs have growled as a warning, air snapped and then gone in for a "warning bite" (there are something like 7 different levels, the last being death, second last being multiple, deep lacerations etc etc), the warning bite ends up being a deep puncture in a human.

That sounds confusing: Dog's skin = tougher than human skin

What would normally just be a "warning bite" to another dog, turns into a real bite on a human because our skin just isn't the same as another dog. So yes the dog bit and injured the child, more so than what the dog probably intended.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending the dog, biting a child is obviously unacceptable. But it helps to understand where our dogs come from. And they come from a "violent" world. If you've never seen two dogs playing rough, you would probably think they were trying to kill each other!

I personally would keep this dog tethered to me in the presence of any child for a long time. Sounds tiring and to be a lot but I would. And not for what many of you think, NOT to be able to correct this dog.

To keep them close to me so I can continually reward for ANY type of good behaviour around children.

Sounds lame, but I think it's important to change the dogs perception about children, especially after the correction it received. If the OP is still here, I would like to say that I probably would've reacted the same way, by severely PHYSICALLY punishing the dog. It's instinct.

Anyways, the dog is tethered to me, children are around, the dog looks at the child, YAY TREAT. The dog sniffs the child, (no body language showing that it's uncomfortable or nervous) YAY TREAT. The dog relaxes in front of the children by lying down YAY TREAT, the child walks by the dog while it's lying down and it shows no signs of being uncomfortable or wanting to guard it's area, YAY TREAT.

So no correction, all yay, fun, peaches and rainbows.

The key to any of these problems is catching the small signs BEFORE the REAL problem occurs. BEFORE the growl, BEFORE the bite, what does the dog do to show it's uncomfortable? Work from there, NOT from the end result, which is the bite. 

Sorry for dragging up this old thread, I just hope the OP is still here.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Unfortunately most people do not understand dog language and are not dog trainers. The kids suffer as a result. I respect your opinion about dogs being taught to be aggressive by owner, but I dont believe most owners are knowingly doing this. They just dont understand the dogs language and vice versa.
I also have seen 1st hand two dogs with the same owner, trained both with the same methods, at the same time. One turns out to be a CGC dog and works as a therapy dog with young children, the other dog snaps and growls when not handled properly. I believe this is in their inbred personality. I cannot explain it another way.

I am not opposed to your idea about tethering, but if you have a home full of children and your trying to take care of the children and keep the dog away from them, this may pose a very difficult situation. It would be hard to do this for the lifetime of the dog and your children.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Not only do the kids suffer but the DOGS suffer as well. Let's not leave them out of the equation, especially when people throw around the idea of euthanizing an animal. Not to say that dogs are more important than children, but let's not forget who suffers the ultimate consequence, death, in these circumstances.

I agree that some dogs just do not get along well with children. I don't think this is the case as the OP has said the dog gets along with her children fine, but in those situations, it's best for everyone if the dog is REHOMED in a home with no children. There are plenty of older people out there who don't have young kids around that would love to adopt a dog that's already house trained.

My idea with tethering was not for the lifetime of the dog. It's an "excercise" that you do, for weeks, or possibly as long as 6 months, until you notice a change in the dog's behaviour around children. It's also a chance for YOU to EDUCATE YOURSELF about your OWN DOG"S BEHAVIOURS. It's a reason to have the dog close to you, so you can learn what triggers your dog has, and what signals they give you to let YOU KNOW that they are uncomfortable. The least you can do as an owner is spend some time to try and understand your dog.

I understand some people can't manage this. Personally, I would do whatever it took to make it work. Dogs are forever, their whole lives. I understand some people, and don't blame them, have different outlooks on pet ownership.

Mine is, when I get a dog, it's for that dog's life.


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

Chris_Texas . . .

First I will say that I have not read through each and every post on this thread. I skimmed . . .happened to read more throughly what you said . . . and some of the responses.

I will agree with you. The issue should be black and white. Dogs should not bite unless they are in imminent danger or are instructed to do so by their masters (i.e.police dogs, working dogs, protection scenarios).

I will also agree with you that the number of dog bites has risen dramatically over the past 20 years or so . . .and if you do a little research you will see that it coincides with a lot of the training methods the people who are making excuses for their dogs use.

However, I do have to disagree with automatically taking the dog to be put down. There are trainers who have worked with HIGHLY AGGRESSIVE dogs . . .both human and dog aggressive dogs . . .that have been able to extinguish that behavior so the dog is sound and trustworthy in any circumstances. This dog obviously was not trained in the proper manner . . .and the dog obviously thinks it has a higher position in the household than it does.

I am not saying you should let kids hang all over your dog. You should watch your dog and make sure that the kids are approaching the dog responsibly or not at all. However, you can make your dog stable enough that even with a kid getting too close, pulling a tail, etc. the dog will not react is such a manner.

Now, to those of you who think the solution is to simply not put the dog around kids again. This is not a solution. This is avoidance. You never solve a problem by avoiding it. Find a REAL trainer that has experience, can show you the stability of their dogs, and has references to prove it . . .and go so far as to see the dogs of the references. The, tackle the problem. Show the dog it is not acceptable. Period. End of discussion.

It is black and white. Be the dog's master. Simple.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Alpha is totally right:


Alpha said:


> I never 100% trust my dogs around children. Period.
> You should NEVER trust a dog with children alone, or in the presence of an unruly child. (maybe not trust the child or the dog!)
> 
> Dogs bite each other. They just do. Even in play, big difference between dogs and humans being our skin is softer, their's is tougher. So when a dog bites another as a serious warning to back off, the other dog's skin is not punctured, it heeds the warning and backs off, or they fight but that's another story.
> ...


Adult dogs nip rude puppies in their muzzle. They're behaving towards the child as any reasonable adult dog would do to an annoying puppy (why do you think so many kids are bit in the_ face_?)... yet they are demonized for it. People demand too much 'humanlike' understanding and behavior from their dog... it's an ANIMAL. Not every dog is a Golden or a Lab (which are bred for excessive friendliness and tolerance), and to hold every dog to the standard of 'It should just lie there and take ANYTHING a human does to it without response, or else it has to die' is unreasonable, in my opinion. 

With that said, _never_ leave small children alone with a dog. Small kids do not understand all the body language of dogs, usually they just treat them like living toys (even if they treat the 'toy' kindly, there is still a lack of total understanding of the dog's point of view which can lead to a misunderstanding). Too often people assume such a 'misunderstanding' is an unprovoked act of violence on the part of a 'crazy' dog, when it is simply NOT TRUE. 

As the leader of your family (and dogs), it is important to look out for BOTH the dogs and the kids best interests.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I'm not quite sure why my post was quoted?

ETA - Haha! Didn't see the line at the top.. I was thinking: Our posts sound kind of the same... But can my post be interpreted the complete opposite way so I've confused everyone?!? ROFL


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Alpha said:


> I'm not quite sure why my post was quoted?


Because I agreed with your explanations.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

You are right the dogs also suffer. Myself my priority is for my children, husband, extended family, friends. The dog is important also, but the humans safety is 1st. 
I work in a trauma hospital and have had many dog bite cases over the years. Where the child did not provoke it. 
I had a 3 year old at grandmas who had his eye gouged out by a dog.
I had a 10 and 9 year old who were selling girl scout cookies when the dogs got out and mauled the 10 year old to the point of being in the ICU for months and having multiple surgeries and amputations. They also hurt the 9 year old and the father and owner who tried to stop the situation.
Ive had a groomer who got bit in the face by a dog and got a very bad infection on her face requiring multiple surgeries.....The list goes on........
My neighbors child was bit by a dog and had stiches on her face. My daughters friend was bit by her own dog requiring stiches.
So yes my priority is for the people.....not the dogs. 
If a dog bites once he will bite again...no excuses. No second chances with people. 
I am not talking nipping or an accident. I am talking intentional biting requiring a doctor/hospital visit.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I agree that there are a number of people out there who shouldn't own dogs for lack of education and control over their animals if that's what you meant to say. 

That's what I took from it, because to me, any educated owner who had complete control over their dogs, would not have allowed any of those situations to happen, except perhaps the grooming incident, but most groomers are aware that they have what can be an "iffy" job. Just like a vet.

I do not believe in this at all:



> If a dog bites once he will bite again...no excuses.


A responsible dog owner would take that as a serious warning to work on issues and keep this dog away from people if they got the chance. (the dog wasn't euthanized)

There are many dogs who have probably bit people who have never bit anyone again because they were never given the chance by a responsible owner. Roxy lives a happy life without any strange human interaction. She would probably bite you if I wasn't always in complete control of her, but she has never attacked, or bit anyone so they required stitches or surgery. Would she? I wouldn't dare say no, because she probably would do it to prove me wrong.

She is always under complete control when in the presence of strangers/public and just never given the chance to bite.

So I respectfully disagree, and would dare to say that comment would be made by someone who has no idea what lengths a responsible owner will go to, to keep their dog, and others safe. [And death is not an option to be made for my Roxy unless she killed someone or seriously injured them in a manner that would prove I do not have complete control over her]

And I don't have kids, but I do have a young niece and nephew that I see often. Just thought that was somewhat relevant


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

Alpha,

You saved me a lot of time from typing. Your post has proven to be intelligent because you made many valid points. All dogs should be tethered for first few weeks or months. I have said the same things all over again, isn't it pretty exhaust to repeat those things? It is sad to see some people who never get it and make the mistake twice.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Alpha:
It would be great if all dog owners were like you and watched there dog every second with people. I really respect you for that. Unfortunately, that is not the norm. That is why many dogs get euthanized after bite scenarios.

I also tether my puppies during the training phase. It is the best way to gain control of your dog. I am trying to get the rest of my family members to do the same.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

pepino - That's why in the same post, I said if it were unmanageable, and the dog was trully posing a threat to the children, it should be re-homed. 

I understand not everyone can jump through hoops to make their family, furry and not completely "koesher" (sp?). So instead of euthanizing the dog, rehome the dog. Your family no longer has to be at risk, yet the dog can still live a happy life. It's a win, win right?

FR - The way I look at it with my girl was; I may never know if socializing her when she was younger would've changed the dog she is now (many reputable dog savvy people have told me it's genetics) but it's possible that she could be a completely different dog. Therego, it's MY fault that I didn't educate myself BEFORE I got her, as it happened she also fell into my life. So it's my responsibility to put the time, money and effort into fixing the issue. And I think, for a relative newb when compared to people who have been in dogs for decades, I've done a pretty good job! LOL 

A little goes a long way when you start to educate yourself about your own dog. What behaviours they do and why. Why they think the way they do. Dogs spend their whole lives trying to figure us out! Some figure us out pretty good! So why shouldn't we try to figure them out as best we can?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Our personal home dog a GWP is a rehomed to us dog that the family had a special child that Vanna had done some growling only but they did not want to take a chance. We had no kids and she has been a great dog the last 8 years with no problems in an adult only home. Of course I don't know what Vanna would say, living in a negative motivation dog trainer's home is not easy.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Thank you for helping me see the other side of this issues. Maybe, a biting dog can be reformed with the RIGHT trainer, who understands the danger of a biting dog and humans. A person who is willing to commit to protecting dog and human. I respect you all for doing so. 

Unfortunately, all these years I have only seen the human tragedies of dog bites and thought of the dogs that did this as ferocious. Which some may have been, but some (like the groomers bite) may have been able to be reformed. 

I hope my dogs will be able to be good citizens in life. My Golden keeps proving herself. The puppy of course needs some time and patience.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

pepino said:


> Thank you for helping me see the other side of this issues. Maybe, a biting dog can be reformed with the RIGHT trainer, who understands the danger of a biting dog and humans. A person who is willing to commit to protecting dog and human. I respect you all for doing so.
> 
> Unfortunately, all these years I have only seen the human tragedies of dog bites and thought of the dogs that did this as ferocious. Which some may have been, but some (like the groomers bite) may have been able to be reformed.
> 
> I hope my dogs will be able to be good citizens in life. My Golden keeps proving herself. The puppy of course needs some time and patience.


Well that's why we do all this silly stuff. None of us I believe, know all the answers, Though I have read some of dogmans replies and he seems to think he knows most of it. The more dog experience we can get out on the forum, the more everybody benefits. The cool part is you don't have to use the advice unless it makes sense to you. The more knowledge and tools you have in your dog training bag, the more prepared you are in the dog world.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The problem with rehoming is that if the dog bites ANYONE in it's new home, YOU can be held liable along with the new owners because you knowingly placing an aggressive dog and the dog will most likely be put down anyhow.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Unfotunately, we have to be afraid of doing whats right, because of lawsuit happy people.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

kennedyzoe said:


> The child was repeatedly jumping on the dog from behind and being to aggressive with him. *I had told this child 3 times to stop bothering the dog and she did not listen*.


I know this thread has gotten a bit off topic, but I just want to say that imo this was your first mistake. 

The child should never have been told three times. 

The child should have been told *once* and redirected to a positive behavior immediately. Children, like dogs, don't always know what TO DO when they are told not to do something.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> The problem with rehoming is that if the dog bites ANYONE in it's new home, YOU can be held liable along with the new owners because you knowingly placing an aggressive dog and the dog will most likely be put down anyhow.


Are you sure about that? What about all the rescues and humane societies that place the dogs in homes, and the dog in turn has issues and bites a family member or another person. I have not seen any incidence where the rescue or humane society is held responsible, or partly responsible. It's always the dog owner. So if I rehomed a dog, don't the new owners take on the full responsibility of that dog? Even if the dog was absolutely perfect in my home doesn't mean it will be in the new home. So I don't see how that liability can come down to the previous owner. Also, when rehoming a dog, you MUST be 100% open with all known issues related to the dog, and all issues should be noted.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Kelliope:

I dont know if you have children or not. But if you've had experience with 3 year olds you can tell them once and re-direct and they will still try to get at the dog again. They dont understand danger and have a strong will at that age. Even if you seperate the 2 you can still have the same situation which would need to be corrected the next time. Put this together with an aggresive dog and you have a recipe for disaster. This would take time until the child learned. 
Its comparible to a puppy. He will try to do the same wrong thing over and over and over....until one day after MANY corrections..... he gets it. 

This is why dogs without a high tolerance level for being annoyed should NOT be around young children. PERIOD!
These types of dogs should be re-homed to an adult only home to avoid pending disaster for both child and dog.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

pepino said:


> This is why dogs without a high tolerance level for being annoyed should NOT be around young children. PERIOD!
> These types of dogs should be re-homed to an adult only home to avoid pending disaster for both child and dog.



Completely agree. And who knows more about the dog than the current owner? It should be the responsibility of that owner, if the decision is made to rehome the dog, to know what the best home would be for that dog, and find a home that meets your standards. And ALL known issues MUST be made known.


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

pepino said:


> Kelliope:
> 
> This is why dogs without a high tolerance level for being annoyed should NOT be around young children. PERIOD!
> These types of dogs should be re-homed to an adult only home to avoid pending disaster for both child and dog.


I could not agree with you more. I feel for everyone involved in these situations but it always bothers me when people want to blame the dog, or even the child. Ultimate responsibility lies on the dog owner and the child's parent. Kids that young, even when being taught right from wrong (which so many aren't these days but that's another thread ...), still need the constant supervision of an adult, especially around animals. Kids don't always do the right things - they're kids. So if you have a dog that cannot tolerate young children, especially when those children don't behave the way they are supposed to (again, they're KIDS), then that dog needs a home without children.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that trying to train the dog to behave differently when it just doesn't have the tolerance for small children will eventually result in a terrible outcome for both child and dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Lonewolfblue said:


> Are you sure about that? What about all the rescues and humane societies that place the dogs in homes, and the dog in turn has issues and bites a family member or another person. I have not seen any incidence where the rescue or humane society is held responsible, or partly responsible. It's always the dog owner. So if I rehomed a dog, don't the new owners take on the full responsibility of that dog? Even if the dog was absolutely perfect in my home doesn't mean it will be in the new home. So I don't see how that liability can come down to the previous owner. Also, when rehoming a dog, you MUST be 100% open with all known issues related to the dog, and all issues should be noted.


I have to agree with you, the dog we took over because of kid problems, the owner made us aware of problems and seeing that we were adults able to make an adult decision took the dog 8 yrs ago and we are still alive. I do understand chellenberger statement though everybody sues everybody for everything.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

pepino said:


> Kelliope:
> 
> I dont know if you have children or not. But if you've had experience with 3 year olds you can tell them once and re-direct and they will still try to get at the dog again. They dont understand danger and have a strong will at that age. Even if you seperate the 2 you can still have the same situation which would need to be corrected the next time. Put this together with an aggresive dog and you have a recipe for disaster. This would take time until the child learned.
> Its comparible to a puppy. He will try to do the same wrong thing over and over and over....until one day after MANY corrections..... he gets it.
> ...



Yes, I do have experience with children and dogs. And I'm not arguing that the dog with a low child tolerance level and should probably be in an adult only home.

I believe young children need to be supervised with animals at all times. Children don't understand what the consquences of their actions could be - whether it be pain to the animal or a bite to them, the child. Even a kindly and tolerant animal shouldn't be subjected to being tormented by young children.

A case in point, my very sweet, wonderful nephew who also happens to be 3 (though very big for his age) saw a cartoon where cats paint with their tails. Well, now everytime he sees a cat he tries to grab it's tail, saying "paint, paint". The cat in question, who just came out of surgery removing one of it's legs due to a horrible accident, is so sweet he didn't scratch or do anything. But we needed to step in and redirect my nephew immediately to prevent both the cat and my sweet nephew from being harmed. We could say "hey, stop that" all day long and most likely my nephew would ignore me.

Also, I'm not passing judgement on the OP, just thought it might be mentioning.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

cshellenburger made a good point, that I guess in the fight in my head on how to not euthanize a dog missed...

It would be a terrible feeling if you did rehome the dog and it bit a child in the neighborhood or something. 

But shelters may be able to take the dog on instead, rehabilitate him there??


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Lonewolfblue said:


> Are you sure about that? What about all the rescues and humane societies that place the dogs in homes, and the dog in turn has issues and bites a family member or another person. I have not seen any incidence where the rescue or humane society is held responsible, or partly responsible. It's always the dog owner. So if I rehomed a dog, don't the new owners take on the full responsibility of that dog? Even if the dog was absolutely perfect in my home doesn't mean it will be in the new home. So I don't see how that liability can come down to the previous owner. Also, when rehoming a dog, you MUST be 100% open with all known issues related to the dog, and all issues should be noted.


 
Yes, the third party CAn be held liable IF they KNEW the dog was a bite risk. I personally have seen it happen. The dog was placed in MY home, bit my then 4 year old daughter. Upon investigation I found out the dog had a bite history and was pullled from the shelter in a neighboring county and placed by the rescue I adopted him from. That is why many rescues will NOT accept a dog that is a known bite risk and if a dog from rescue bites it's an instant death sentence. Oh, I was not informed of the bite risk, but upon talking to OUR county AC officer I found out tht even if I had been and the dog had bitten someone outside hte family not only would I have been held liable, so would the rescue nad the county the dog was pulled from.


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