# Could Dog Shows Benefit from Copying Cat Shows?



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

The past several years, there has been a lot of discussion in show circles and magazines about declining entries in shows and an overall downturn in the number of new people joining (and staying) in the sport.

Very recently, I've started learning about how the CFA and cat folks do their shows, and I notice that not only are cat shows often much more accessible to outsiders (they seem to mostly be 'bench shows' which are almost unheard of in dogs nowadays) and in the few I've gone to, folks seem happy to talk to pet people and explain what's going on. Also, there are conformation classes for pet cats which also give ribbons, and that seems like a nice way to hook new people into wanting to learn more about breed conformation and progress into more serious competition.

One thing that I feel is sorely lacking in AKC shows (the UKC does much better in this regard) is that they're pretty newbie unfriendly. It's hard for people not already 'in the know' to understand what a judge is actually _judging_, and how a winning dog is chosen. Many exhibitors are in and out quickly, and don't stick around any longer than they have to, often going out of their way to avoid talking to 'pet people'.

For those who have gone to both dog and cat shows and know what I'm talking about, do you think dog shows could benefit from changing some things to be more similar to how the cat folks do things?


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

I don't show, but I know a number of people who do, and from what I've been told, the problem with bench shows and why they're mostly reserved for things like Westminster and Eukanuba (other than all the required space), is that they're just so tiring. You and your dog have to be "at your post" so to speak for most of the day, with very few exceptions. It would also be very difficult if not impossible for someone who is showing multiple dogs that day - would they need a person for each dog they have with them? Who would stay with their other dogs while they are in the ring? It's easier for cats because they are caged, not to mention smaller than many dog breeds. I have a pretty good feeling that more bench shows would just drive even more people away.

There is/was a club called the Mixed Breed Dog Club of America (MBDCA) who held conformation shows for mixed breed dogs (and purebred ones who didn't qualify to be shown in AKC), but I haven't been able to find any proof of them being active since 2008 and I'm not sure if they have gone dead or not. The reason I imagine such a thing not working in AKC - as fun as it would be - is simply for the costs to the clubs. More classes - especially one that would probably wrangle a lot of entries - means increased judges fees, more ribbons, more submission fees. They just wouldn't be able to afford it, especially if their first few didn't get the entries they expected.


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## l2andom (Aug 30, 2010)

I would actually like to try show. Kind of feel intimidated by it all though.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I'd kind of like to find a cat show. The idea seems kind of out there (but, all of my experiences with cats are shelter "mutts") but dog shows are kind of nutty too.



TorachiKatashi said:


> I don't show, but I know a number of people who do, and from what I've been told, the problem with bench shows and why they're mostly reserved for things like Westminster and Eukanuba (other than all the required space), is that they're just so tiring. You and your dog have to be "at your post" so to speak for most of the day, with very few exceptions. It would also be very difficult if not impossible for someone who is showing multiple dogs that day - would they need a person for each dog they have with them? Who would stay with their other dogs while they are in the ring? It's easier for cats because they are caged, not to mention smaller than many dog breeds. I have a pretty good feeling that more bench shows would just drive even more people away.
> 
> There is/was a club called the Mixed Breed Dog Club of America (MBDCA) who held conformation shows for mixed breed dogs (and purebred ones who didn't qualify to be shown in AKC), but I haven't been able to find any proof of them being active since 2008 and I'm not sure if they have gone dead or not. The reason I imagine such a thing not working in AKC - as fun as it would be - is simply for the costs to the clubs. More classes - especially one that would probably wrangle a lot of entries - means increased judges fees, more ribbons, more submission fees. They just wouldn't be able to afford it, especially if their first few didn't get the entries they expected.


One alternative I have seen at some bigger shows are a meet the breeds area. There's posterboards about the breed and a dog or two you can meet. It think that's a better alternative for dogs because it's easier on dogs and people. It also shouldn't cost too much more, as it's just a booth and I don't think the AKC requires fees for that. I'd like to see the idea spread a little more; it wouldn't have to be every breed at every show.

I do know that my club at least is very concerned about costs to them, and that our entries (and profit) for this past April's show were down from previous year. They were resistant enough to the idea of mixed breeds in agility, I cannot imagine the rain of hate that would descend the day someone suggests mixed breed conformation.



l2andom said:


> I would actually like to try show. Kind of feel intimidated by it all though.


Go to shows! See if there is a dog club in your area (training, a single breed club, or all-breed) and find out when their meetings are. At a show, one of my favorite things to do is sit next to some people who know what's going on (judging groups is a good time for this) and just listen to them. You'll learn a lot. It took me three or four shows to work up the courage to talk to them myself, but I've found most people to be happy to talk to me. You can't go wrong by complimenting their dog


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## BoxerDDog (Sep 22, 2010)

I think you nailed it when you wrote about the competitors and breeders avoiding the pet people and the newbies. I want to show Boxers and have been thinking about finding a show pup to add to the family some time next year. I have never participated in dog shows before, so I have no idea what I'm doing. I've gone to watch a couple shows and a lot of the people seemed like the "too good to be bothered" type. Getting information elsewhere has been extremely difficult too. It's like no one wants to help you unless you are buying a show puppy from them, and even then some breeders don't want their show prospects going to people who are inexperienced with conformation shows.. so they're not much help either! It's very frustrating.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I'd kind of like to find a cat show. The idea seems kind of out there (but, all of my experiences with cats are shelter "mutts") but dog shows are kind of nutty too.


They're pretty different, it's fun just to compare them to dog shows and see how stuff is handled differently.



> One alternative I have seen at some bigger shows are a meet the breeds area. There's posterboards about the breed and a dog or two you can meet. It think that's a better alternative for dogs because it's easier on dogs and people. It also shouldn't cost too much more, as it's just a booth and I don't think the AKC requires fees for that. I'd like to see the idea spread a little more; it wouldn't have to be every breed at every show.


I LOVE Meet the Breeds! I think all shows should have them, everyone seems to love them. Especially they're good for rare breeds that a lot of folks might not know about or ever get to see otherwise.



> I do know that my club at least is very concerned about costs to them, and that our entries (and profit) for this past April's show were down from previous year. They were resistant enough to the idea of mixed breeds in agility, I cannot imagine the rain of hate that would descend the day someone suggests mixed breed conformation.


Yeah, cat people have really a different attitude -- they tend to like ALL cats in general, whereas dog people seem to be more 'tribal'. =P

I was thinking mixed breed conformation could help teach pet people about structure, to develop an eye for a balanced dog, etc. which could lead to them wanting to get more into purebred stuff. Like the judge could explain what he's looking at and judging, in a way that's not done in the 'serious' rings. In other words, it'd be more of a newbie-friendly educational thing. Plus winning a little ribbon or something would be fun for a lot of people, it might make them want to try the 'bigger leagues' someday. I figure that's why it's done in cat shows, to try and get more kinds of cat lovers involved and interested.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

There are shows like you describe. They are called matches. The problem with this type thing at a licensed AKC dog show is the time factor. Judges are expected to spend 3 minutes or less per exhibit. They load judges' assignments with this expectation. Most of the time it is not that they are unwilling to interact with exhibitors, it is that there is NO TIME FOR IT. They load judges' assignments with this expectation. 

Many clubs, my own included, schedule time for a handling seminar for Junior Handlers. However, at AKC dog shows, people really are expected to be prepared when they enter the ring, both themselves and their dogs. This is why people take handling classes, or hire professional handlers.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Pai said:


> I was thinking mixed breed conformation could help teach pet people about structure, to develop an eye for a balanced dog, etc. which could lead to them wanting to get more into purebred stuff. Like the judge could explain what he's looking at and judging, in a way that's not done in the 'serious' rings. In other words, it'd be more of a newbie-friendly educational thing. Plus winning a little ribbon or something would be fun for a lot of people, it might make them want to try the 'bigger leagues' someday. I figure that's why it's done in cat shows, to try and get more kinds of cat lovers involved and interested.


I think that might a fun club thing. The more I think about this, the less I think needs to come from The AKC. It might be more effective for clubs to reach out to the general public about what they do. My club's Responsible Ownership day is a HUGE hit. With all the stress and stakes at a real show (or even a sanctioned match), it's not the best learning opportunity for the raw newbie. It would probably be a friendlier lesson if it was done separately, expressly for the education of the general public. I think I might bring this up as an idea for a fundraiser for my club, doing it in conjunction with Eukanuba might be kind of fun.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> There are shows like you describe. They are called matches. The problem with this type thing at a licensed AKC dog show is the time factor. Judges are expected to spend 3 minutes or less per exhibit. They load judges' assignments with this expectation. Most of the time it is not that they are unwilling to interact with exhibitors, it is that there is NO TIME FOR IT. They load judges' assignments with this expectation.
> 
> Many clubs, my own included, schedule time for a handling seminar for Junior Handlers. However, at AKC dog shows, people really are expected to be prepared when they enter the ring, both themselves and their dogs. This is why people take handling classes, or hire professional handlers.


I know, but it seems like that kind of schedule makes it harder to attract new people to the sport. Folks pay money to come see breeds they like at the shows, and it seems a shame to miss an opportunity to educate them and try to make dog showing seem like something they'd want to try. I'm just examining potential ways that show could be made more 'friendly' to outside dog-loving folks.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I think you nailed it when you wrote about the competitors and breeders avoiding the pet people and the newbies.


Many of the oldies do, yes. I try very very hard to converse with anybody that comes up to me and compliments my/asks me about my dogs. Sometimes I am pressed for time (GSDs generally show very early in the morning), but I'm as polite as possible if I'm heading for the ring. I tell them they are more than welcome to return to my setup with me after my dogs have been in the ring, and I'll discuss Shepherds/dog shows with them. 

I very much enjoy doing that.

98% of the time, people come back to my setup.

I've been to a couple cat shows, and while I saw some beautiful cats, I really didn't enjoy it much. You have to sanitize your hands EVERY time you want to touch a cat, cats don't really DO anything, the show as a whole is a lot less intense.

I have cats, love cats, and hope I always will have cats....but cat shows are dull. The reason you can do meet the breeds so easily with cats is because they are generally uninclined to go anywhere (and even if they do want to go somewhere, they're in cage setups). The vast majority of the grooming is done BEFORE the cat arrives at the show. They don't need to be taken out to go potty, the litter box is right there, they don't have to move to the judge, the judge comes to them.

The reason dog shows are more hectic is that dogs require a different (and in this scenario, higher) amount of care than at a cat show. I do not see cats banded up so they don't get dirt in their coats when they go outside to potty...because the cats don't go out. You don't have to grab a muzzle to navigate through a crowd of people and dogs, you don't have to worry about missing your ring time because all of a sudden your Newfoundland special peed all over the feathering of his front legs.

Benched shows with dogs are also not my preference because if I only have ONE dog entered, it is not fair to force me to have my dog sitting out on display all day. I should be able to put my dog in a kennel and decline people that want to love on or fuzzle him for 10 hours. My dogs are very stable, but they're also sentient, and they NEED A BREAK! I also don't want to sit on a bench all day, unable to go shop or look around at the other exhibits because I HAVE to have my dog on display for the world.

I am HAPPY to talk to any and everybody about my breed, but if I want to put my dog away so he can take a nap, get a drink, or eat his dinner, well...I don't want to be yelled at about it because the public wants to meet him.

I hope that rambling made sense.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, part of the problem is there's kind of a huge start up cost to getting actually involved in the sport. I agree that we have to get numbers up, but it's not like you can really enter the dog you already have, even if he's purebred, because in all likelihood they're fixed. So, I dunno. Dogs are hard.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Well, part of the problem is there's kind of a huge start up cost to getting actually involved in the sport. I agree that we have to get numbers up, but it's not like you can really enter the dog you already have, even if he's purebred, because in all likelihood they're fixed. So, I dunno. Dogs are hard.


Yeah, that's a big barrier to entry, though. I'm sure that's one reason why the sport's in decline in recent years, too, new people have to come from _somewhere_. For some breeds, there just aren't very many new people getting into them, which is bad news for the breed, longterm.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

The problem I see if what would mutts be judged on? it works for cat shows because all cats have pretty much the same purpose. but dogs are juged based on a standard that is written to describe a dog that is best at a specific thing.

Would a Greyhound Wiemeriner mix be judged against a Pembroke Corgi Jack Russel mix? what would the judge be expected to look for to determine who is better? would it be "most cuddly"? or "biggest kisses"?


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

Structure? I don't know. But I like watching dog shows, but it's expensive to get into. If they had SOMETHING, as said above, I might do it with my current dog before I invest in an expensive dog to do the real thing. Could also separate by type. Terrier mixes, GSD mixes... That kind of thing.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

The way I picture it working is a "Certificate of Soundness." Like tests are judged, it's more of a pass/fail than a win/lose. Does the dog move in a free and natural way? Is he solid on his feet? There are a lot of breed-specific functions, but the basic principles of soundness are similar across the board. Three passes and you get to add CS to the end of your name.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

The way the MBSCA shows were judged were based on things like, is he the proper weight, is his coat clean and healthy (and cleanly groomed, which obviously varies), structure of the dog, things like that. They separated it into three groups based on size.

It was also required that the dog earn at least his CD title before he could earn a Ch. Personally, I think that's a policy all clubs should take, but that's just me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think dogs shows can really be run like cat shows. Like Xeph said, dogs are just more high-maintenance to even have at the show, so it can't be exactly the same. I do think that having an Alter class and a Household Pet class would attract more people to the sport. That's how most cat people get into showing--first they start with a moggie in Household Pet. Then they'll get a non-show-quality purebred to show in Household Pet. Then a show-quality cat to show in Premiere (alters). Then maybe they move up to Championship classes, although a lot of people stick with alters; intact cats are not suitable for most homes. But it is very beginner-friendly.

Also, (most) cat people will freely admit that cat shows are beauty pageants, a hobby for enthusiasts. Dog people like to pretend that showing is the ONLY way to produce a sound dog, and that it's somehow more than just a hobby. Also, as was already mentioned, most show cat people love all cats, show dog people tend to be more "breedist", and seem to look down on pet dog owners, especially if they have mutts. Just my experience, of course.


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## Noah's Mom (Mar 29, 2010)

This is a very interesting discussion. I have thought for years about checking out dog shows to see if I'd like to get involved, but I don't personally know anyone who shows dogs and it all seems very intimidating, so I have never actually been to a show. 

I HAVE been to a few cat shows though, after connecting with some local people on a cat site. My experience there was that it was very newbie and spectator friendly. There was a person at the entrance who handed out brochures explaining how cat shows work, how the cats are judged, etc. Sometimes people gave their cats a break by covering the cage, but often had display posters about their breed and their particular cats. Some people hung out near their benching area, and others seemed not to, but everyone smiled and seemed friendly and open to questions. I have been told though that this can vary depending on the group.

I actually did consider trying to show one of my Ragdolls, but their breeder discouraged me from doing so. (They were not sold as show quality cats, and I realized that, but she felt it was not worth the stress on the cats and exposure to possible infection, etc.) And ultimately, I just didn't know if my cats would enjoy it. Many cats get very stressed out by being in a strange environment, around strange people and cats, etc, and I just let the idea fall to the wayside.

Dog shows seem like they could be a lot of fun. But I know that if I, as a newbie or spectator, felt unwelcome, I don't think I'd probably come back.


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