# Bite work = Abuse



## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

So i don't know if you've seen it on facebook. but this man Dr.Peter Dobias, claims that bite work sports =abuse and cause serious physical harm to the dogs, any thoughts on this?

I for one do NOT view bite work as cruelty









The fb page https://www.facebook.com/drpeterdobias


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

LOL Seen it on Facebook.... I am one of those causing it to go viral among the dog community....


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't think it's right of him to generalize all bite work as cruel... but at the same time, I'm not going to negatively call someone like him out because he's not exactly promoting anything horrible either.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

If you dig farther, collars and to some extent, leashes are abuse in his eyes. Anything other than a happy little pet you make baby talk to... Is abuse..



SydTheSpaniel said:


> I don't think it's right of him to generalize all bite work as cruel... but at the same time, I'm not going to negatively call someone like him out because he's not exactly promoting anything horrible either.


Actually he is....


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I generally like what Dr Dobias has to say, but like you guys, I was pretty appalled and what he posted.

I think he has good intentions, but just doesn't realize that schutzhund is actually a dog sport and that most people who train dogs in this sport are not intending for their dogs to be military/police dogs and GOOD schutzhund trainers use mostly positive methods.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Completely inaccurate and embarrassingly ignorant on his part. Physical and emotional harm... please. There is physical risk in bite sports, as there is in agility and other activities, but certainly not more so. As for mental health, correctly executed bitework creates a confident dog, not a frightened one. And if you want to see "mental harm," meet a Malinois or working bred GSD without an outlet, lol.



taquitos said:


> I think he has good intentions, but just doesn't realize that schutzhund is actually a dog sport and that most people who train dogs in this sport are not intending for their dogs to be military/police dogs and GOOD schutzhund trainers use mostly positive methods.


I feel like this implies that there is something wrong with training military and police dogs, which I hardly agree with either...


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> I feel like this implies that there is something wrong with training military and police dogs, which I hardly agree with either...


Someone could potentially argue that animals should not be used in human conflict (which I think is a better argument/opinion than criticizing the entire dog sport, etc.).

I don't have a strong opinion on military dogs, etc. personally.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

taquitos said:


> Someone could potentially argue that animals should not be used in human conflict (which I think is a better argument/opinion than criticizing the entire dog sport, etc.).
> 
> I don't have a strong opinion on military dogs, etc. personally.


Ah ok, I can see that. I was thinking more that the training, while different in details, is the same in the basic components.

ETA: He's now arguing that it's bad for dogs to bite and hang on. Except that's actually a very natural motion for dogs... there's a reason they tug, lol. He also thinks they "spin" the dogs and "pick them up." Decoys only "spin" to absorb the shock of the dog's entry to AVOID jamming the dog and hurting it. They are not held off the ground for extensively at all.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Any and all dog sports have a danger element to them. You or the dog can get injured. Heck, running down the street with your dog could potentially cause injury (even well conditioned dogs can pull muscles). 

Bite work is not abuse. It is a sport. Whenever I see videos of dogs training or competing in Schutzhund, they have wagging tails and the most intense look in their eyes. They love their work. Just like an agility dog loves his work.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> Ah ok, I can see that. I was thinking more that the training, while different in details, is the same in the basic components.
> 
> ETA: He's now arguing that it's bad for dogs to bite and hang on. Except that's actually a very natural motion for dogs... there's a reason they tug, lol. He also thinks they "spin" the dogs and "pick them up." Decoys only "spin" to absorb the shock of the dog's entry to AVOID jamming the dog and hurting it. They are not held off the ground for extensively at all.


Yeah I think Dr Dobias does actually say that because he grew up in the Czech Republic where he saw lots of dogs being used in military conflicts, he does not agree with them being trained this way. I think his issue really comes down to animals getting injured while working for the benefit of a person (sorry if this doesn't make sense lol long day).

But yeah he definitely has no idea what he's talking about. He probably hasn't ever even seen dogs training for schutzhund irl.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

taquitos said:


> Yeah I think Dr Dobias does actually say that because he grew up in the Czech Republic where he saw lots of dogs being used in military conflicts, he does not agree with them being trained this way. I think his issue really comes down to animals getting injured while working for the benefit of a person (sorry if this doesn't make sense lol long day).
> 
> *But yeah he definitely has no idea what he's talking about. He probably hasn't ever even seen dogs training for schutzhund irl*.


No, that makes sense. 

The bolded part is really my issue. People follow him and by burning that image of the dog biting the sleeve into people's retinas along with the word CRUELTY he's really damaging the public image of protection sports and potentially endangering their future. And he's doing all that because he's talking out of his a**. Not cool, bro.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

taquitos said:


> Yeah I think Dr Dobias does actually say that because he grew up in the Czech Republic where he saw lots of dogs being used in military conflicts, he does not agree with them being trained this way. I think his issue really comes down to animals getting injured while working for the benefit of a person (sorry if this doesn't make sense lol long day).
> 
> But yeah he definitely has no idea what he's talking about. He probably hasn't ever even seen dogs training for schutzhund irl.


Czech smech..... He is an AR guy..... Do a google search on this guy.... No herding, no pulling. no jumping etc. 

A dog does anything other than sniff the daisies he is against it.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

I showed this to my sister, who is home from college, and we start laughing and calling B a fighting machine... which led to us being pounced on, held down and licked, and ended with (gentle) Maligator love bites. Emotionally damaged for sure, I tell ya.

Tomorrow AM we're going to get up early so I can let a guy hit her with a stick, after he flings her around. Cuz that's just how we roll.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Haha now he's playing the victim while his minions (who apparently don't even know what the discussion is about) are coming out of the woodwork.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Haha now he's playing the victim while his minions (who apparently don't even know what the discussion is about) are coming out of the woodwork.


Ugh I knoooooooow. *gag* We aren't haters, you're just... wrong.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

With a proper foundation training, handling, and decoy no don't find it in any way abusive or cruel... I've listen to more abuse approaches applied in training concerning a dog learning to live in a private home and lets not talk about what is done to a dog/pup about potty training.. Sounds like he is not informed or with the right exposure experience to correct handling and training for bite work.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Haha now he's playing the victim while his minions (who apparently don't even know what the discussion is about) are coming out of the woodwork.



Yea..... And I am having fun.... I am over there like a Rabid spider monkey that just drank four red bulls. 


Oh.... BTW... I found something today at work on him. Publicly condemning mushing and mushers... His opinions of ya'll was down right nasty. I will find it again.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Ahahaha, Johnny, just found what have to be your comments. Keep on keepin' on! I'd buy you a beer if I could.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Yea..... And I am having fun.... I am over there like a Rabid spider monkey that just drank four red bulls.
> 
> 
> Oh.... BTW... I found something today at work on him. Publicly condemning mushing and mushers... His opinions of ya'll was down right nasty. I will find it again.


Oh. He. Did. Not.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

BTW Sass.... I stole your whole victim and minions thing.... Sorry... Could not resist.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Emily1188 said:


> Ahahaha, Johnny, just found what have to be your comments. Keep on keepin' on! I'd buy you a beer if I could.



I am John Cone.... I get vocal when someone gets me riled.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

So.. letting dogs do what they were bred for is cruelty? He's an ass.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am John Cone.... I get vocal when someone gets me riled.


I guessed right! I appreciate your effort on those posts. Fighting the good fight, and such.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am John Cone.... I get vocal when someone gets me riled.


Reading your comments now lol.

I really wish Dr Dobias would just take back what he said and just say "I was wrong".


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> BTW Sass.... I stole your whole victim and minions thing.... Sorry... Could not resist.


Haha... USED WITH PERMISSION. I post-permission you.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Seriously? There's someone on there with an ACD basically telling people to write the retailors that sell his products about this nonsense. Is that you Johnny? Lol

Omg..it is you lmao. That's priceless.

Drama hungry ppl acting like he smacked their child or something. It's ridiculous. His opinion is wrong... Ppl are acting like a bunch of children having a tantrum about it though. Does no one kind of find this whole thing ridiculous and think people are over reacting our is that just me.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Czech smech..... He is an AR guy..... Do a google search on this guy.... No herding, no pulling. no jumping etc.
> 
> A dog does anything other than sniff the daisies he is against it.


I am not doubting you but I did a google search and it says he is a Czech guy. Grew up with horses that died of diseases and he suffered their loss. I just had to look him up because curious about him after reading about this. 

Bite work can be a very dangerous sport not only for the dog but the handler and the helper. It can also be very beneficial to a lot of dogs. I have seen dogs that are scared of their own shadow and bite out of fear become more confident and learn to bite on command. This surprisingly makes for a better dog. As far as getting hurt, we can get hurt just trying to get out of bed in the morning. 

I read his blogs and reviewed his website. Doubt if I will sign up for his webinars or e-mail alerts.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Seriously? There's someone on there with an ACD basically telling people to write the retailors that sell his products about this nonsense. Is that you Johnny? Lol
> 
> Drama hungry ppl acting like he smacked their child or something. It's ridiculous. His opinion is wrong... Ppl are acting like a bunch of children having a tantrum about it though. Does no one kind of find this whole thing ridiculous and think people are over reacting our is that just me.


Yes that is me.... And the power of business is a valuable tool...


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## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

It's 1 persons' opinion. Everyone has 1 and is entitled to 1. What does he think about canine police officers? His answer would probably be contradicting.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SillyDogs said:


> It's 1 persons' opinion. Everyone has 1 and is entitled to 1. What does he think about canine police officers? His answer would probably be contradicting.


Actually it is not... He says there should be no police or military dogs.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Looks like one of those people that think just because there's a small chance a dog could get injured its not worth doing. I wonder if he would let a dog run around the house and yard even?
Teaching to fight? Well most dogs into bite work are sleeve happy,which means they ignore the human once the sleeve is off. Plus trained to out and ignore the human on command.
I also find a positive use in it in that the dogs that are bred for it tend to be the healthiest and most athletic of the breed. Even though they may not all be,dog sports and work encourages people for better breeding practices.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Its official the guy is a jerk. Watched the naughty dog video. His dog could get hurt chasing the geese or his dog could hurt one of the geese. These people always have an excuse. He says that his dog chasing the geese will help the geese if his dog is a coyote. What a two faced farce!


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Foresthund said:


> Teaching to fight? Well most dogs into bite work are sleeve happy,which means they ignore the human once the sleeve is off. Plus trained to out and ignore the human on command.


Meh, not necessarily and ultimately not the point of the training. I realize it's more PC to say, "Oh they just want the sleeve" and that certainly can be true for some Schutzhund dogs but honestly, training like that misses the mark, really. I want a dog that wants to spar with the decoy. Just because you see dogs take the sleeve and run around with it does not mean that if the decoy suddenly agitates them, they will not aggress on him. My dog will run around with the sleeve or the jacket, but she will also bite a hidden sleeve (looks like a guy just wearing a hoody) no problem, and has lunged for a decoy with no equipment on when we accidentally wound up to close to each other. If she was carrying a sleeve and the decoy agitated her, she would drop the sleeve and go for him. She's very prey driven and also social out in public, but she also knows that her job is to spar with the human, not the sleeve. I realize when you read about it online people make it sound very simple, if the dog likes the sleeve then it won't actually bite someone, but IRL in actually it's more complicated. 

It's trained aggression, bottom line. Trained carefully and with specific triggers and cues. I can't just point to someone and tell my dog to rip them up, it doesn't work like that. She relies heavily on not just my verbal command but human body language and situational cues, and I have excellent control of her, but it is still trained aggression ultimately. And she is a sport dog, not really intended for personal protection work, but nonetheless this is our reality. She is also neutral to social with strangers in public and not what I consider sharp, nor is she a defensive dog in bite work at all. She guards the house, yard, and car, but she has always done that - she got dumped at the pound for not letting the landlord in the house at 8 months old, lol. She started out on a sleeve and was very equipment happy, but maturity, jacket work, and confidence have turned her into a dog who ultimately wants to beat the person, not the equipment. It's kind of like training a boxer; they are being taught to "fight" but it has rules and it's a sparring match, not a fight to the death. And the dog always wins, to keep their confidence high.

Even so, tt has in no way made her a more dangerous dog. She is far more controlled and confident now than she was before we started bite work.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Drama hungry ppl acting like he smacked their child or something. It's ridiculous. His opinion is wrong... Ppl are acting like a bunch of children having a tantrum about it though. Does no one kind of find this whole thing ridiculous and think people are over reacting our is that just me.


Um well... he did steal a photo of a dog engaging in one of my (and my dog's) favorite activities and smear the word "cruelty" on it, accuse me of mentally and physically harming my dog, suggest I was turning her into fighting machine, and then share it on his Facebook page which approximately 9000 people follow. I don't think anyone's overreacting really. You might feel differently if he was slamming your sport and your dog.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Emily1188 said:


> Um well... he did steal a photo of a dog engaging in one of my (and my dog's) favorite activities and smear the word "cruelty" on it, accuse me of mentally and physically harming my dog, suggest I was turning her into fighting machine, and then share it on his Facebook page which approximately 9000 people follow. I don't think anyone's overreacting really. You might feel differently if he was slamming your sport and your dog.



Then go and write a comment calling him a f***in moron, an idiot, a quack, tell him your officially unliking his page and never buying any of his products ever again! Grrr

Cause you know, those are the type of comments I'm reading and yeah.. I think it's ridiculous and over reacting. As well as over dramatic and childish.

Just to officially state my point, I do think he's an idiot but I'm not about to waste my time writing an insulting comment to tell him so... I just think that's stupid. 

At least there are some ppl that are actually taking the time to write well thought out, respectable, and educational comments.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Then go and write a comment calling him a f***in moron, an idiot, a quack, tell him your officially unliking his page and never buying any of his products ever again! Grrr
> 
> Cause you know, those are the type of comments I'm reading and yeah.. I think it's ridiculous and over reacting. As well as over dramatic and childish.


Huh, I read most of the comments, though I admit not all 688 or whatever it's up to now, and didn't read any name calling that I can remember. Personally, I told him he was ignorant and should be embarrassed to have publicly posted something so inaccurate, and I stand by that. But that's all I said.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I know it does depend on the training,and how far the owner is willing to take the dog. Some people just use the sleeve as a form of tug or war,others not so much.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

lol I went to the actual debate on facebook to read the comments. Everything was kind of all over the place, but, yeah. The guy obviously has no idea what he's talking about. However, I also agree that people are over reacting.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Emily1188 said:


> Even so, tt has in no way made her a more dangerous dog. She is far more controlled and confident now than she was before we started bite work.


I'm sure it has, we never got Caeda deep into the bite work, but we did some, and it definitely gives an appropriate outlet for some of her drives, as well as teaches to control them, and use them under my control. I personally think that bite work is a very good thing for a certain kind of high-drive dog. 

Just thinking of ignorant comments about bite work and such. The guy we got Diesel (one of our fosters) from had an ignorant perception, who left him chained in his back yard until Diesel's neck was scabbed, didn't train him and maybe walked him a half a dozen times in his life. He said that if we took Diesel we couldn't get him involved in Schutzhund (he knew I did Schutzhund with Caeda) because "people make their dogs fight to the death there". First off, where on earth did he get that, and secondly, I couldn't quite see why he would care if that was the case. 

I do find that some aversive methods are a little bit overused in Schutzhund (don't get me wrong, I'm not completely anti-aversive, I use e collars an prongs), but if the dog is still coming through the entire thing without being hurt, especially if they have gotten better at their sport and still love it, I'm not going to judge too much. I've been the helper with the bite sleeve on before, and when that dog was looking up at me waiting for the command to take the sleeve it was awesome, SUCH a happy dog, excited, confident, drivey, I wouldn't quite say aggressive, just ready to rock is all and a little impatient to do so lol. That certainly wasn't the face of an abused dog!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well if objecting to misinformation about a sport that a lot of people I respect participate in, seeing them mischaracterized as animal abusers, and voicing my objection to such is childish, then get my spot ready at the kids' table.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Then go and write a comment calling him a f***in moron, an idiot, a quack, tell him your officially unliking his page and never buying any of his products ever again! Grrr
> 
> Cause you know, those are the type of comments I'm reading and yeah.. I think it's ridiculous and over reacting. As well as over dramatic and childish.
> 
> ...


The guy attacks working and bite sport dogs and their owners. Calling them cruel...

How do you expect folks to react?



RCloud said:


> lol I went to the actual debate on facebook to read the comments. Everything was kind of all over the place, but, yeah. The guy obviously has no idea what he's talking about. However, I also agree that people are over reacting.


Over reacting? No....


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Civilized? Idk... I really shouldn't expect that from ppl since the majority of ppl aren't respectable and civilized in daily life anyways...

Anyways, I wasn't really referring to you or Pip's mom's comments (sorry, can't remember your sn and don't feel like going back a page). I've seen some comments from you guys and they were all pretty calm and respectable. I was referring to the name callers and well.. The childish ppl. Honestly, I think behavior like that is counter productive to the "cause" since it's only going to make people defensive and refuse to listen to anyone, even the "good ones". 

Anyways, i'm just curious if anyone had gotten a response to this whole swinging around by the neck thing? I don't feel like going back and trying to read through all the rubbish to find a response from him....

Apparently, from a comment he left last night, he'll be bringing in some "professionals" and "specialist" that agree with his opinion. (Wonder where he found those crackpots). I don't think this whole thing will be n dying down any time soon...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Civilized? Idk... I really shouldn't expect that from ppl since the majority of ppl aren't respectable and civilized in daily life anyways...
> 
> Anyways, I wasn't really referring to you or Pip's mom's comments (sorry, can't remember your sn and don't feel like going back a page). I've seen some comments from you guys and they were all pretty calm and respectable. I was referring to the name callers and well.. The childish ppl. Honestly, I think behavior like that is counter productive to the "cause" since it's only going to make people defensive and refuse to listen to anyone, even the "good ones".
> 
> ...


Well the name calling is out of line. And between the multiple threads on the subject, I have been called names more than once. Does not bother me...


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Oooopsie, I showed it to our training director and main decoy at PSA this morning and now he's on it like white on rice. :angel: LOL


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Well if objecting to misinformation about a sport that a lot of people I respect participate in, seeing them mischaracterized as animal abusers, and voicing my objection to such is childish, then get my spot ready at the kids' table. ]
> 
> Can I join ya? They always have the best dessert at the kids table. Afterwards we will play the game 'pin the tail on the donkey or in this case jacka$$! This guy is playing one really well


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

My GSD Loves and I mean Loves her bite tug, sleeve and going to Protection sports...it probably be cruel NOT to take her!


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