# Breed bite measured by PSI



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

My husband found this video last night. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7jhrxy0HKs

It kind of blows the Pit Bulls have the strongest jaws or 1300 or 1800 PSI myth out of the water.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

That link was posted on my thread "pit bulls have locking jaws". It was a very good video and I love to show it to people (along with wallacethepitbull), but everyone I have tryed to change their minds about pit bulls have locking jaws still believe pit bills jaws lock. They dont want to accept the truth, its way more easy to believe their jaws lock for them I guess.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

Not a scientific test, therefore results cannot be conclusive


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I watched a show on the Animal Planet, I'm pretty sure I tivo'd it, that was the most accurate test done. It wasn't just dogs though, they did a Rottweiler, Alligator, Wolf, some kinds of shark etc etc.

It stated that the most PSI of ANY dog is around 350, and that's SchH and FR sport trained dogs, that do bite work, almost on a daily basis.

The wolf actually had a higher PSI than any breed of dog tested. Somewhere around 400-450 I think...

They used a bite plate, now there will never be a 100% sure fire way to determine PSI of any species, as we can never determine if the animal is trully biting down to their full ability, but come on people! Use your common sense!

A DOG has the equivalent PSI of a Great White Shark? I think not  LOL

sillykitty - Sometimes I think those people are just better off, written off! You can't educate everyone, some people just don't want to believe the truth like you said. It's easier for them to just stick to pitbulls have locking jaws and they can bite as hard as Great Whites  I'm pretty sure they also still believe the eart is flat!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

MayaTheLab said:


> Not a scientific test, therefore results cannot be conclusive


This is true but its good enough or is it not for you? I think that at least 25 individuals of the same breeds should have been tested for more accurate results. However I fail to see how after watching this video people can actually still believe that Pit Bulls have a 1300-1800 PSI or have the PSI equivalent to crocodiles (which was about 2000+ when measured). I mean come on that is ridiculous!!!!


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

*Alpha*- I think I saw that show, too! And weren't most of the bites that they were getting from the wolves only like 200 because the wolf they were using didn't want to bite? They had to get a different wolf and torture THAT wolf for hours before they got a decent bite!

I was suprised though that the wolf and the sharks were only like 100 apart! I would have figured a shark could bite harder then that  But then again they don't have to because of how sharp their teeth are! The parrot was my favorite, though, because compaired to his body mass he could bite HARD!! And I know that's true about parrots because MINE bites hard!


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Hardly an accurate test.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

Spicy1_VV said:


> This is true but its good enough or is it not for you?


good enough for what? 

I don't trust pit bulls or rottweilers as far as I can throw them, makes no difference how powerful their bite is. These 2 types have been bred for certain characteristics which make them poor choices for family companionship. 

from wikipedia: *These caveats notwithstanding, a CDC study detailing dog bite related fatalities in the US between 1979 and 1998 reveals that roughly one-third were caused by Pit Bull type dogs. The highest number of attacks (118) were by Pit Bull type dogs, the next highest being Rottweilers at 67. The full report can be accessed at: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf *


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

MayaTheLab said:


> good enough for what?
> 
> I don't trust pit bulls or rottweilers as far as I can throw them, makes no difference how powerful their bite is. These 2 types have been bred for certain characteristics which make them poor choices for family companionship.
> 
> from wikipedia: *These caveats notwithstanding, a CDC study detailing dog bite related fatalities in the US between 1979 and 1998 reveals that roughly one-third were caused by Pit Bull type dogs. The highest number of attacks (118) were by Pit Bull type dogs, the next highest being Rottweilers at 67. The full report can be accessed at: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf *



wow, you really do give in to the sterotypes. maybe you need to learn more about these dogs, and how GREAT of companions they make


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Thank God the over 100 Rottweilers that I have dealt with through rescue and owned myself or trained did not read that report. I would really be in trouble. As would all of the people in the Nursing homes, Hospitals, Children's centers that they have been in doing Therapy work. I am so glad that Therapy dogs international didn't hold out on registering my dogs with them. Maya, just so you know it is also a fact that the CDC does not support any Breed Specific Legislation and that many of the bites recorded were mix breed dogs that resembled the breeds in question. It is also a fact that because of the over population of Labrador Retrievers (over breeding) that Humane Societies are being flooded with them as well. How long do you think it will be before the numbers of bites by retrievers starts climbing? Oh, and I had Rotties for well over 25 years. Actually 28 if I count a mix. In all of those years with the breed and saving many of them from horrid situations. I never had the "mean one" that I keep reading about. Maybe I was just lucky, or maybe they are really great dogs and some poor individuals are just in crappy homes. Just to try to balance the scales I wonder how many Search and rescue Pits and Rotts have saved How many lives. How many lives have been touched by these breeds in a positive manner through Therapy work, or Service dogs. Also, Rottweilers were originally breed as Drovers, not drug house guards. Yup, that is right, they were used to herd cattle and pull carts to market. My dogs have all been wonderful family dogs. I can't imagine a breed more perfect for a family dog. In the right home.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

> I don't trust pit bulls or rottweilers as far as I can throw them, makes no difference how powerful their bite is. These 2 types have been bred for certain characteristics which make them poor choices for family companionship.


I'm sorry, but what an awful statement to make 

I hate it when people make such rash comments.. especially on a DOG FORUM, where there is clearly going to be someone, like myself, that owns a APBT as well as a mixed Rott.

What an awful statement to make 

I think before people make such rude comments, they should do some research. In my town, Labrador Retrievers were the number one breed for biting small children of the family.

Now, I'm not as ridiculous as to say: Labs are evil, awful dogs that I would never trust around kids. Even though the statistics are there, that prove just that.

But MY BRAIN thinks, and it goes somewhat like this: The labs are old the kids are young. The owners get married, and get a dog. Don't train it, just what a cute puppy. THen a few years down the road they have a kid... the kid gets old enough to poke the older, grumpy dog and the dog bites them...

My APBT is FANTASTIC with my niece and nephew. If you knew anything about the breed, you would know that they are EXCELLENT family dogs because of their high pain tolerance (kids pulling at their whiskers doesn't really bother them) and their love of people.

Being breedist on a dog site...


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Inga said:


> Just to try to balance the scales I wonder how many Search and rescue Pits and Rotts have saved How many lives. How many lives have been touched by these breeds in a positive manner through Therapy work, or Service dogs.


I saw a 9/11 book in a book store recognizing a bunch of search and rescue dogs for their great work during that time. I searched and looked through the whole book looking for a pit bull because I knew many pit bulls helped search. I couldnt find 1, not even 1! They just picked a bunch of Labradors (about 75% were) Golden Retrievers, a few Border Collies, a Doberman and a Rottweiler. I was very sad to see that.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Now, I'm not as ridiculous as to say: Labs are evil, awful dogs that I would never trust around kids. Even though the statistics are there, that prove just that.


So the statistics in your town prove that labs are evil, awful dogs?


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## ChillisMom (Aug 25, 2007)

MayaTheLab said:


> good enough for what?
> 
> I don't trust pit bulls or rottweilers as far as I can throw them, makes no difference how powerful their bite is. These 2 types have been bred for certain characteristics which make them poor choices for family companionship.
> 
> from wikipedia: *These caveats notwithstanding, a CDC study detailing dog bite related fatalities in the US between 1979 and 1998 reveals that roughly one-third were caused by Pit Bull type dogs. The highest number of attacks (118) were by Pit Bull type dogs, the next highest being Rottweilers at 67. The full report can be accessed at: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf *


Wow, you really need to get a clue.... I'd be embarrassed to type what you did.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

I don't get it, why should posting FACTS either "embarass" me or construe an "awful" statement?  

FACT: Pitbull types and rottweilers cause more injuries and fatalities than any other types of dogs.

OPINION: I don't trust either breeds. 

Why should I feel bad about forming my opinions based on facts?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I heard a statistic a couple years ago that more reported dog bites are caused by Golden Retrievers than any other single breed.

Based on that information, I think Goldens should be banned.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

RonE said:


> I heard a statistic a couple years ago that more reported dog bites are caused by Golden Retrievers than any other single breed.
> 
> Based on that information, I think Goldens should be banned.


post the link.

sounds like "I heard it from my cousin's brother-in-law's niece twice removed" 

and who is calling for a ban? I just don't trust em.


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## ChillisMom (Aug 25, 2007)

> I don't get it, why should posting FACTS either "embarass" me or construe an "awful" statement?


How is this a fact....



> I don't trust pit bulls or rottweilers as far as I can throw them, makes no difference how powerful their bite is. These 2 types have been bred for certain characteristics which make them poor choices for family companionship.


And actually, the way APBTs were bred (culling the dogs that bit people) makes them wonderful family dogs if they are handled responsibly, and the same goes for Rotweillers. Before you go running your mouth why don't you research the history of these breeds? You sound completely ignorant to me....

MayaTheLab, where are you getting these "facts" from.....
Here's a link for you.
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.org/default.asp


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

MayaTheLab said:


> FACT: Pitbull types and rottweilers cause more injuries and fatalities than any other types of dogs.
> 
> OPINION: I don't trust either breeds.
> 
> Why should I feel bad about forming my opinions based on facts?


Actually that statement is only partially true. Rotties and "pit bull type" dogs were responsible for 60% of the fatalities from dog bites during that time. There is no way to accurately track bites, becuase there has never been any type of standard to reporting them. I don't think the CDC even tracks bites anymore. What you would probably find would be similar to what Alpha said, more lab or lab mixes involved in bites or attacks than anything. But that's to be expected considering the lab is still the most popular breed in America, and a large percentage of mixed dogs are considered lab mixes.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

the-tenth said:


> Actually that statement is only partially true. Rotties and "pit bull type" dogs were responsible for 60% of the fatalities from dog bites during that time.


yes that is correct. In addition to the statistics I've seen, I've been around plenty of dogs of all types and just don't have a good feeling about either breed. You know what- I don't really trust small dogs either, you know- the ones with "little man syndrome". Why should I feel bad about the way I feel?

BTW, I see a difference between a bite and a fatality. Most bites I'm sure are not the dog being aggressive, just protecting themself. However when an animal kills a person that is a different story.

Chill out and don't take it personally, I'm sure your pits and rotts are very nice or you wouldn't have them.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

tenth - Step off. I'm so over your childish plays on my posts.

So, are you done post stalking me yet 

ETA - So my bad. : S I see what your saying now tenth, and that's not what I meant, that labs are evil blah blah blah. I meant the statistics would show that in fact in my town, labs are NOT the best family dogs.

Maybe another day tenth, I'm tired today! lol 

Sorry, back on-topic 

Maya, there's another member on this board that doens't like pits either. I hate them  KIDDING! But there's a way to state your opinion without hurting, or angering someone else.

My dogs are my kids. Would you like it if I called your kids stupid and untrustworthy? I would hope you wouldn't  LOL

Yano, saying YOU don't trust them, I'm okay with that. Hopefully you have a legit reason other than hyped up media, but saying that they're an awful choice for family companionship? (I don't think that's how you worded it, but something along those lines) I think that's taking it just a step too far. Especially if you've never owned either of those breeds to know.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm not a pit or a rottie person either. Too much risk for me having kids in the house, and I have enough trouble with what I've got. Personally, I've never been attracted to a pit in any way, so my opinion on their place in the whole really has nothing to do with that. I know in the right hands, they make wonderful pets. I also know in the wrong hands, they can be deadly. And I'm not the right hands. I think rotties are one of the most beautiful breeds out there, but wouldn't own one for the same reason. I'm not the one to train a rottie. I've known good ones, even dog sat for a friend that had a huge one. At the same time, I wouldn't own a small dog either. But to some people, if you voice your opinion (which you can't tell someone there opinion is wrong, it's their opinion) about not owning certain breeds, the yellling begins.



Alpha said:


> tenth - Step off. I'm so over your childish plays on my posts.
> 
> So, are you done post stalking me yet
> 
> ...


See. You think I'm being childish by pointing out stuff like that. It's not just with you. I am a very literal person. A lot of people are. I am (regardless of your opinion on the matter) intelligent enough to know, that you weren't saying labs are evil, I was just pointing out that is how it read. And if you'll notice in the post below that one, I actually defended the pits had more bites reported comment. That's my good deed for the month. And I hate statistics, because people twist and manipulate them all the time to suit their purpose.

I am very anti-pit, and rottie........in my house. Because I'm not the right person to own one. I'm not anti-gun either, but I don't believe tht everyone in the world has any business owning one of those either. And honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to people having to take classes and get certified to even own a dog. Now granted from the government standpoint, it would just be another pocket padder, but there are way too many people buying or adopting dogs that have no business doing so. Having kids too, but that's a whole nother arguement!


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

Alpha said:


> My dogs are my kids. Would you like it if I called your kids stupid and untrustworthy? I would hope you wouldn't  LOL


But I didn't do that. You took it personally when I gave an opinion on the breed.

Waay too many people get a certain breed just because they like the look without doing any research. And I'm sure that most of these people don't have any clue as to the training, socialization and responsibility of dogs (esp these breeds). 

I know that labs are responsible for a great deal of bites, however I'd rather be bitten by a lab which was bred for a soft mouth to retrieve birds than a pitbull or rottweiler any day.


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## ChillisMom (Aug 25, 2007)

MayaTheLab said:


> But I didn't do that. You took it personally when I gave an opinion on the breed.
> 
> Waay too many people get a certain breed just because they like the look without doing any research. And I'm sure that most of these people don't have any clue as to the training, socialization and responsibility of dogs (esp these breeds).
> 
> I know that labs are responsible for a great deal of bites, however I'd rather be bitten by a lab which was bred for a soft mouth to retrieve birds than a pitbull or rottweiler any day.


I'd rather not be bitten by any dog...
How is a Labrador bite different than any other dog breed bite?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

ChillisMom said:


> How is a Labrador bite different than any other dog breed bite?


Being that bite inhibition is something that MUST be taught to all dogs, there is no difference.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

MayaTheLab said:


> .
> 
> Waay too many people get a certain breed just because they like the look without doing any research. And I'm sure that most of these people don't have any clue as to the training, socialization and responsibility of dogs (esp these breeds).
> .


I run into them all the time. People with little knowledge and just want a powerful dog to make them look tough. That is why the breed is in the media in a negative way. People just need to educate themselves for the safety of the dog, the breed and the people who live around them. children in the neighborhood included. 
Maya, When we "the rottie pit folks" get defensive, you have to understand it is because we love our dogs just as much as the rest of the other dog lovers out there and everyday we have to defend our breeds to people who hate them just because they are in the media because of irresponsible owners. It gets hard sometimes.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

It's because you're an evil rottie owner Went to a halloween parade last night, and a couple had a 2 month old rottie. Absolutely adorable.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Yes, I guess I am. LOL I do try to help people get over their fears of my breed but sometimes I just get tired of defending them when I know how sweet they really are.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

ChillisMom said:


> I'd rather not be bitten by any dog...
> How is a Labrador bite different than any other dog breed bite?


well duh!!!  

just saying I'd rather be bitten by a dog that was bred to have a soft mouth- if I had to choose. And in my case, the way I conduct myself around strange dogs there would have to be something wrong with any dog that bit me. And I'd feel more confidant I could kick the living %$#! out of a lab than a pitbull or rottweiler if I had to defend myself. Especially after reading the CDC report


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I'm going to a little off the path that many would assume I'd take and agree with you Maya.

Yep, to be perfectly honest, if I had to choose, I would rather be bit by a lab then a pitbull. But do you know why? *dun dun dun* 

Because most of the time labs bite once, snap, whichever then leave.

If a pitbull, has been trained, or irresponsibly bred to actually bite a person, chances are that terrier, one track mind, high prey drive is going to come out in biting the person, even though that isn't what the breed was bred for.

My trainer and I were discussing Hades' prey drive a few weeks ago, and yep, it's crazy. That dog, I'm sure could be trained to do anything to chase a frisbee down.

But am I going to bring Hades' on my possible future endeavors in SchH or PP work? Nope, I'm not. Because THAT I feel, would be terribly irresponsible.

tenth mentioned people twisting statistics to fit their arguement, well we do the same thing with dogs unfortunately. We, meaning humans, specifically irresponsible dog owners.

It's so easy to twist a dog's breed trait to suit what you want. Pitbulls have high prey drive, that's bred to unfortunately be used on other dogs, but it's prey drive nonetheless. People want a dog that looks big, tough, muscly and freaks out on people to perhaps compensate for something that God forgot to gave them or enlarge. Therefore, when these dogs natural barrier to NOT bite humans is broken, it often ends in tragedy. 

Does that mean that they are untrustworthy? I wouldn't say all, but I would say some.

Does their intense drive make attacks often fatal? Yes it does. 

But the kicker is, with training, socializiation and responsible ownership, can these dogs live comfortably in society. Yes, they can.

Don't lump as all in heap, us evil rott and pit owners, because we don't all belong in one category labelled: Untrustworthy and Viscious and neither do our dogs. Well maybe *I'm* in that category, but my dog isn't


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Therefore, when these dogs natural barrier to NOT bite humans is broken, it often ends in tragedy.
> 
> Does that mean that they are untrustworthy? I wouldn't say all, but I would say some.
> 
> ...


I think most people on here absolutely agree with that. The problem (I think) is that there are many pro-pit people who would throw you under the bus, so to speak, for saying (or posting) what you just did. I think a lot of "I don't like pits" statements are more times than not (here anyway, with people who know more about the breed, not just what's in the papers) would be more correctly articulated by saying I don't like them for me. I know you agree that it takes an entirely different owner to responsibly train a pit. For most owners it's hard enough to train a dog not to pee all over the house, and not to eat the pillows  (See this post for clarification http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/15280-remind-me-why-i.html ). For some of us, those some that aren't trustworthy make it not worth the risk. Now if I had no family, maybe. But my family is not worth even the smallest risk that I can avoid. As much as I hate statistics, I'm going to throw a few out. That CDC study showed an average of 12 fatal dog attacks per year. That's one a month. Around 60% of those were rotties or pits. That is a very small number, unless your child happened to be one of those numbers. My opinion is, that (GENERALIZATION WARNING) when *most* dogs attack, they don't do it to kill. Once that line is crossed, where an attack takes place, the training goes out the window and the dog goes by its instincts. A dog that's been bred for hundreds of years (if not longer) to fight to the death, is more likely to go back to that place than a dog that's been bred to retrieve ducks. Even if I were competent in my ability to properly train a pit, I'm not sure that would always be enough for me. Sandy was attacked last week by a 100+ pound GSD mix. I can't help but wonder, if I was a pit owner instead of a whatever the heck Sandy is owner, if the pit wouldn't have gone back into survival mode, and we would have had a fight to the death on our hands. Having said all that, let me say this. 90 people every year are killed as a result of lightning strikes. Considering the population of the US, that too is a very small number. But I'm not going to put my kids in a rain coat, and tell them to go play in the rain during a lightning storm either. The smallest chance of anything like that happening to one of my kids, is too big of a chance for me.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Sheesh, this thread changed topics FAST! 

Alls I have to say is, I don't distrust any dogs simply for their breed. I distrust dogs with _bad owners_, because no matter if your dog is a big burly pit bull, or a sweet little Papillon or something like that, the only times dogs become agressive and violent is when they have an owner that can't handle them. I do agree that pitbulls and rottweilers aren't for everyone, but those aren't the only breeds that can have potential problems. I wouldn't own a Chow myself, because I don't trust _myself_ enough to be able to provide that kind of dog with the right discepline in order to be a good dog.

So if I see a person walking a big scary Pit Bull or a Rottie, I'm not going to be afraid of it unless I think that owner isn't very responsible. But if I see someone irrisponsible walking a pekingese I'm going to feel the same way. It's not like Rotties and Pit Bulls are the only dogs with _teeth_. Dangerous dog breeds aren't the ones who cause fatal bites, it's dangerous dog _owners_.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

If someone doesn't like a breed I have or a breed I don't own, I don't have a problem with that. Now when they talk bull with has no fact? Thats different. The way APBTs make them very human friendly and stable and great family companions. Many fight dogs doubled as family companions and house dogs. Playing and sleeping with children without incident. 

http://www.atts.org/statistics.html
Temperament Test stats by breed

Its seems Petey from the Lil Rascals was a very popular dog, he stared not only in Our Gang comedies. He showed what a real APBT temperament is like. How was it anything but companion like? He was bred for fighting (with a GR CH sire) but didn't hurt anyone right?

To say they are not good with kids or are not good family dogs shows ignorance. If you don't know about a breed why make a statement which is inaccurate or untrue? I post a lot of info on different breeds (temperament, traits, personality, ect), but I never post info about a breed that I don't know about whether I like it or not. What would the point be. 

A lady who bought a pup from me, has 6 children. The pup took right to all of them and the baby specifically who she curls up and sleeps by. She had a small breed mix, that never cared about the kids. She owned 3 other APBTs. One died at only 6yrs from epilepsy she said "saved her sons life". He was born premature and when he finally came home was on a breathing machine at times. One day her dog starts barking at her, pulling her pant leg, trying to get her attention. She is a little freaked, since the dog did have seizures and isn't sure if something bad is going on with her dog. Then the dog finally gets her attention to follow her to the babies room. It turns out her son had stopped breeding, she was able to get the breathing machine back on him in time and get oxygen to him and his lungs pumping. Her dog sensed what was wrong and let her know. Otherwise her son likely would have died and not been able to be resuscitated. Hmmm right, they really are not good family dogs, especially not with kids. 

I'm sure we can all post nice web links too. 

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/children.htm
Reliability with children by breed. Most bully breeds were top rated. Because bulldogs have been bred to be so stable around people/family, their job called for it, it only makes sense. You should be aware of dog aggression and prey drive or don't get one. 

http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20031201/012387.html
APBT helps to save girl in fire. OMG these dogs who make horrible family dogs actually trying to save a child? No way, I think they have it twisted huh? That dog was totally trying to attack her. 

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/weela.html
APBT saves her young owner from a rattlesnake and later helps 30 people, 29 dogs, 13 horses and a cat. Oh no these are no way NOT family or companion dogs....lol They only want to kill everything and everyone. 

http://www.pitbullpress.com/ARTICLES/PRIDE.html
AST saves 10yr old girl from dog attack Dog Fancy Cover Story. How can we ever trust these dogs with kids? They obviously hate them. 

http://network.bestfriends.org/thepitstop/news/2703.html
APBT wakes family during fire, cool since this is close to me. 

http://www.lawdogsusa.org/whypitbulls1.html
APBT K9 Officers 

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/CustomsToday/2002/October/k9.xml
#1 US Customs dog now retired. Rescued from a freezer of a drug dealer's house.

http://www.mprgroup.net/news/ppfeb05.html
SAR with APBTs. This is just one story, these dogs are well known in the SAR community. In some video footage I watched her dogs were also involved in the space shuttle parts search. When the weather got a little yucky, when the other dogs got tired, her continued to search.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/rca.html
Alaska's first certified hearing dog a "dangerous Pit Bull"

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/spike.html
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/shelby.html
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/panda.html
http://www.pitbullpress.com/ARTICLES/atyourservice.html
Service Dogs

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=134184&ran=142465
Hearing assistant 

APBT are one of the most popular breeds and so are Labs. They are equally everywhere, both pure and mixed. Actually there are quite a few lab/pit mixes. Didn't realize how popular they were until I included the ones I knew along with someone on another forum who asked if anyone else had one and ended up with 2 pages of responses last I looked. Trips to the shelter always seem to be the same breeds Pit, Pit mixes, Lab, Lab mixes, Hounds & hound mixes, Heeler an Heeler mixes, Golden and Golden mixes (they of course have other breeds just not in high numbers). This is from a couple different states I've visited shelters in. Although each shelter will vary by location the breeds they have, Laps and Pits always seem to be popular there. 

Being popular isn't good for any breed. Labs are so often dumped at shelters because people think they are "perfect family dogs" just by breed alone. When they don't train or socialize the pup and it grows up, that just means trouble for the dog and annoyance for the family. The dog digs, barks, chews, rips up carpet, nips kids, jumps on everyone, ect. 
APBTs being so popular the same goes for them, people get them with little understanding of them. A lot of time under the misconception that they are "the perfect friendly dog" so maybe they have done a little research (or just met their friends) and realize that they have a good temperament but these same people are under the assumption that "Pit Bulls are only mean when trained to fight" So they buy from a byb and get a pup with temperament issues. They don't train/socialize their pup because "its in the breed" to be friendly. I'd say no training means something going to give, the dog does what it wants when it wants (like Labs do too). Oh yes then there is the thing called dog aggression and prey drive which can naturally occur in APBT and other breeds. So when something happens, they are not expecting it to.

Then there are the people who get them just to have a touch mean dog. 

Our own Law Enforcement

The interview we were called for in the newspaper also interviewed the Police Capt. He said "there has been some discussion among city staff and the police department to ban pit bulls, which are stronger than most other breeds."
"We haven't seen the need to do so at this point," said Wasson, "and where do you draw the line? Ban just full-bred pit bulls or every combination? It gets difficult." Wasson said pit bulls are thought of as a fighting dog; therefore, that is how they are treated. "We do have animal bites reported to us that are from pit bulls," Wasson said, "but we average *three to five dog bites a month from all breeds.* It is all in how they are raised." He said in the past few years there have been a lot of pit bull thefts, believed for the purpose of fighting. 

Now one officer was a total jerk about APBTs. He was really pressing buttons. After about an hour he finally seemed to change his view just a little, instead of thinking they are ALL the same he became more comfortable with them. 

Another likes them a lot, he owns and AB and EB. He also likes APBT and knows its an unfair steriotype. He has his favorites of our dogs. 

The most recent officer we talked to was also knowledgeable. Its not the dogs who are the problem its the owners. They get them to look tough, fight or guard. They get reports of "mean Pit Bull at large" calls. When they arrive its either 1. Not a Pit Bull at all 2. It is a loose Pit Bull but isn't the lease bit mean and in some cases (the minority) 3. It is a Pit Bull with an attitude that might be dangerous. Usually its just a friendly escaped pet. Also that when they raid drug houses often the dogs they find are Pit Bulls (they are victims and don't chose to be raised by these people). Sometimes they are not mean at all, they are all for show and looks and still pretty friendly, other times they are unfortunately dangerous exactly what these losers want. 

Watching SWAT and other shows I've seen where they are going on a drug bust and know their is 1 or 2 Pit Bulls. They try to prepare for that (in case the dog is mean) and most of the time the dog isn't mean. The episodes I have seen show an officer who is petting or playing with the "guard dog" who isn't at all a guard dog. The problem being that this breed is almost always people friendly. However the hype and misconceptions attract these bad types. Fortunately the breeding holds true. They don't turn out to be guard dogs at all because it goes against their nature. People think thats what they are and get them for that purpose and the dog grows up to love people. Sometimes they are confused. I've met too many people that are like My Pit isn't a very good guard dog. Or why is my Pit not being more protective. Well maybe they should have researched the breed, they obviously just went on media stories and hype and wanted them for the wrong reason. If they want a guard dog get a guardian breed. In their case I'd suggest no dog at all as they don't have the skills to treat and raise a dog right. 

Its so scary the mentality of some people. After the Diane Whipple cases Presa Canario breeders reported an influx of calls from people wanting a dog like in that case, wanting an attack dog, do you have the dogs like the one that killed that lady, will your dogs guard like those did, ect. They are actually calling asking for a killer!!! The only reason they have interest in the breed is because it made national headlines for KILLING a HUMAN. SICK.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

And here we go again. For the record, I'm not anti-pit. But it's not right for anyone to villify pits, because of isolated attacks or incidents, right? But your post is filled with accomplishments of a few individual dogs, claiming these news articles mean that they are super family dogs as a breed. The exact opposite of what people get absolutely slammed for. A pit killing a kid is not the norm. But neither is a pit pushing a kid out of the way, to get bitten by a rattlesnake. If you're going to fight, fight fair. If you don't want the other side using isolated incidents to tear down the breed, why is it ok for you? How loud would you be screaming, about someone posting ten links to pit attacks or fatalities saying that proved they were horrible family pets?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Gotta agree with the-tenth here (who seems to like to argue, but frequently makes very compelling arguments.)

Narratives about isolated incidents involving individuals dogs are not useful in evaluating a breed as a whole. While we can probably make some generalizations about about the temperament of well-bred dogs, the fact is that most dogs are not well-bred or even purebred. This doesn't make them bad dogs, but it means that any predictions about temperament can be reckless.

This is why I try to evaluate the individual dog (when I'm actually looking for a dog which, of course, I never am) rather than go in search of a lab or a Plott or a Tasmanian wolf-dog. (I made that up.)


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

RonE said:


> Gotta agree with the-tenth here (who seems to like to argue, but frequently makes very compelling arguments.)


I resemble that remark!
Wait I mean resent. I think I missed my calling. I shoulda been a lawyer.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

the-tenth said:


> And here we go again. For the record, I'm not anti-pit. But it's not right for anyone to villify pits, because of isolated attacks or incidents, right? But your post is filled with accomplishments of a few individual dogs, claiming these news articles mean that they are super family dogs as a breed. The exact opposite of what people get absolutely slammed for. A pit killing a kid is not the norm. But neither is a pit pushing a kid out of the way, to get bitten by a rattlesnake. If you're going to fight, fight fair. If you don't want the other side using isolated incidents to tear down the breed, why is it ok for you? How loud would you be screaming, about someone posting ten links to pit attacks or fatalities saying that proved they were horrible family pets?


Please stop trying to twist post.  I never claimed these articles make them a super family breed? They are a super family breed because of their temperament but are in not one for every family or person. So are many other breeds, great family dogs. 

I will try to be intelligent with you and hope you comprehend it this time. My whole point was that anyone can post links for their side. Hmmm like the exact same thing you are saying. I'm not fighting?? I never slammed them for posting the link. Hello the person did post a negative link. I said "I'm sure we can all post nice web links too" I'm making the same freaking point you are. They can post all the links about killing and I can post all the links about life saving. It really proves nothing. You can find links backing your side if you look for them. 



MayaTheLab said:


> good enough for what?
> 
> I don't trust pit bulls or rottweilers as far as I can throw them, makes no difference how powerful their bite is. These 2 types have been bred for certain characteristics which make them poor choices for family companionship.
> 
> from wikipedia: *These caveats notwithstanding, a CDC study detailing dog bite related fatalities in the US between 1979 and 1998 reveals that roughly one-third were caused by Pit Bull type dogs. The highest number of attacks (118) were by Pit Bull type dogs, the next highest being Rottweilers at 67. The full report can be accessed at: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf *


I guess you missed this post? MayaTheLab used the link to say that these breeds are dangerous. My point was anyone can post links for their side. I can find nice stories, they can find bad statistics/stories. That just makes deadlocks and doesn't prove anything and doesn't help either side 

In almost every breed you will only find a "accomplishments of a few individual dogs" within that breed. There are only a few breeds who have a lot of individuals as they most often have a job related to service or life saving. However try searching pug, boston, cocker spanial, aussie shepherd, ect, ect, stories and see if only a few life saving stories come up. They are still considered good family dogs, even though only a few have been heroic. Dogs step up and help us when we need it, any and all breeds. Heck even pot bellied pigs have helped save their owners lives. Animals are smart and loyal. I'm sure you already know all this. 





As for the other part of your post. Have you owned and know a good number of APBTs? Defending their family is actually the norm. Including when it comes to snakes. 
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/dixie.html

Again this is just a link to one story. I realize that. If someone doesn't want to believe then nothing will really convince anyone that protecting their children/family when needed is the norm for the APBT(really dogs in general). 

Unless they have owned and know a lot though, they shouldn't be commenting on whats the norm for them. The only reason its not done are a "normal basis" is because people don't run into venomous snakes everyday, their homes aren't catching on fire every day, ect. Therefore their APBT doesn't need to help them. 

I know of more personal stories. A friends kid was here helping with the dogs. She is 11yrs and owns her own APBT that she shows and trains herself. Her dogs Uncle they (her parents) also have, he did the same thing to her and her brother. Where they lived they have seen more then a few venomous snakes and it happened this one was too close and would have struck (it was already acting defensive) and would have reached her or her brother if the dog happened push them out of the way and took the bite himself. 

We live in an area that is supposed have to many rattlesnakes yet haven't seen one...thank God. I get bullsnakes in and around the house regularly, I'm glad the rattlesnakes stay away!!! However friends I have are not so lucky they do have a venomous snake problem (one lady moved into a new place that was infested under the home). These friend are APBTs owners, actually how we became friends in the 1st place. One of these dogs has done the same for their human boy and another ran out and went for a snake that was close to the puppy kennel (not human babies I realize), but she wanted out of that house and it was for a reason. Well kids running into venomous snakes isn't really the normal for a daily activity. If it were a lot more APBTs and other breeds of dogs would likely be being bitten saving their human kids lives. 

Just because you don't hear about the everyday heroes in the breed doesn't mean that they don't exist. You think every time a Pit Bull has saved or helped some one its published? Even at times when it is in some cases they won't say the breed. I've seen that happen a couple times. Oh this dog is a hero but they never mention he/she is a Pit Bull anywhere in the article. 

(In case you don't get the everyday heroes part it that doesn't mean they save lives everyday, it means just the average family dog saving a life)



the-tenth said:


> I resemble that remark!
> Wait I mean resent. I think I missed my calling. I shoulda been a lawyer.


Maybe so, they are good at twisting words. 



RonE said:


> This is why I try to evaluate the individual dog (when I'm actually looking for a dog which, of course, I never am) rather than go in search of a lab or a Plott or a Tasmanian wolf-dog. (I made that up.)


Well everyone can have their own opinion on it. I'm not in disagreeing with you. Its up to them how they chose a dog, whether by breed or not. I always look at breed and then individual dog, because dogs don't always live up to their breed. Like you mentioned about well bred or not and such. Thats why breeders (should) evaluate each dog before breeding, just because its that breed doesn't mean its a good representation. Some breeders don't care and obviously ruin breeds. 

However I think if you are looking for a dog of a certain traits, temperament and purpose breed can be very important. It will increase your chance of getting what you are looking for. 

If I want a flock guardian I will get a Kangal and not a Beagle. Breeds are selectively bred to be specialized.


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## Donovan (Aug 24, 2007)

Hey! Now we're cooking! I knew I joined this place for a reason!  

I think it's all been said, so I won't beat a dead horse, but do have a few things to add:

Pit bulls are possibly the most numerous dog out there (and that may not need to include mixes or imposters - the "short N lows", "Amer. Bully's" or whatever they're being callled) so with that being said there stands a good chance that pit bulls and mixes could be responsible for the most bites/fatalities.

- But how does one calculate these stats? Is there a standard? And is this standard local? Regional? National? What about bites that don't get reported?

- And how did the CDC collect it's data? Could they have used media accounts to acquire the "facts"? And why did they put a disclaimer on their own report?

And with regards to the subject of dog bites and PSI, claiming that an entire breed can bite so much (or so little) is a loosing battle. Too many variables. And while the OP (I believe) was just trying to put in a little bit of advocacy for pit bulls, the turn this thread took just goes to show how much work "we" have got a head of us. I do have faith. At some point, people will realize that a dog is a dog is a dog. 



(...gotta admit, after not being able to log-in for a week I wasn't expecting this one!  )


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## Ilovemypit (Oct 20, 2007)

Well I just got a 3 month old pit an he is going to be a sissy dog cause im training him to be.My roomate has a much older one an that thing will not hurt a fly just lick you to death All i got to say is all dogs can be evil It all depends on the owner i think So if pitbulls are getting such a bad wrap its got to be cause alot of pitbull owners are training them wronge or abusing them. An unfortunaly when a pitbull bites a person there bite just happens to be a little for hurtfull then most of the other dog bites.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Your pup is so cute!


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## Ilovemypit (Oct 20, 2007)

I know i don't want him to get bigger. He is growing up to fast for me lol


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## Donovan (Aug 24, 2007)

Ilovemypit said:


> Well I just got a 3 month old pit an he is going to be a sissy dog cause im training him to be.My roomate has a much older one an that thing will not hurt a fly just lick you to death All i got to say is all dogs can be evil It all depends on the owner i think So if pitbulls are getting such a bad wrap its got to be cause alot of pitbull owners are training them wronge or abusing them.


 An unfortunaly when a pitbull bites a person there bite just happens to be a little for hurtfull then most of the other dog bites.[/QUOTE]

Don't fool yourself with good intentions. IF the dog is unsound, regardless of breed, it is an unsound dog and all the training in the world can not correct genetics. 

Now a more reasonable assumption about your dog, as it is a pit bull, is that it may have a fair - high level of prey-drive, the potential to be dog aggressive, and most of all should be SUPER people friendly. Friendly to a fault. So with that said, you having a dog that is a "sissy" may indeed be true with respect to humans but this dog has the potential to be hell on wheels with other animals. 

Then again, it may not. MANY pit bulls are indeed dog friendly but it has everything to do with genetics and NOTHING to do with the owners' goodwill. Responsible owners with pit bulls that do indeed have the genetic make-up to tear up an out of line, pestering, rude dog work our keister's off to make sure that our dog's understand that while they might want to mix-it-up they are not allowed to! Some folks have a dog that can't even stand the sight of another dog without going bonkers, regardless of the other dog's behavior. It is always my suggestion that after a fair shot with training if the dog is so dog aggressive that it absolutely can not do anything other than try to get at the other dogs, (and fortunately this seems to be a very small number of the dogs that I've come to know about) it might be best to put the dog down. Also know that dog aggression and a being dog reactive are TWO different things. 

I suggest checking out these websites, and if you aren't already familiar with them, as you'll find them a WEALTH of knowledge:

www.badrap.org www.workingpitbull.com  www.animalfarmfoundation.org



> An unfortunaly when a pitbull bites a person there bite just happens to be a little for hurtfull then most of the other dog bites.


This couldn't be further from the truth.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

> Don't fool yourself with good intentions. IF the dog is unsound, regardless of breed, it is an unsound dog and all the training in the world can not correct genetics.
> 
> Now a more reasonable assumption about your dog, as it is a pit bull, is that it may have a fair - high level of prey-drive, the potential to be dog aggressive, and most of all should be SUPER people friendly. Friendly to a fault. So with that said, you having a dog that is a "sissy" may indeed be true with respect to humans but this dog has the potential to be hell on wheels with other animals.


I could not agree more. Underestimating or ignoring a dog's genetic pre-dispositions for certain trains can lead to tragedy.


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## Ilovemypit (Oct 20, 2007)

Ive been training him to be nice with animals it likes cats an bunnies at first yes he wanted to attack them but now he does not. maybe just maybe cause i have a cat to ?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Good post Donovan, I hate to read/hear things like that. Where a new owner thinks everything lies in training. Poor breeding or problems exist, despite training. Sometimes you can take a dog with temperament problems and get them to be a really decent dog, but it takes a lot of understanding of training and behavior and you must realize the problem. In other cases a dog is unstable and thats all it will be, genetics, a temperament problem caused by a physical one. Things you can't change. 

You are socializing him to other animals. Which is a good start. This will decrease his likelihood of wanting to chase small animals. However it is not a guarantee. So you must be watchful of him as he matures and more of his temperament shows. He might want to harm a cat later, maybe not your cat but a strange cat. Many breeds will do this, or they will act aggressive to strange dogs which come near their yard or home. That is just basic dog instinct. Other dogs are not welcome in the pack. We expect a lot from our domesticated dogs at times that go against canine nature. 

Here is a couple examples of real recent tragedies. 

1. Male Pit PTS for killing the neighbors cat. The owner's words "I don't understand it because we have a cat" Well that is their cat, part of the pack, its not the neighbors cat running by in which the dog escaped the yard and killed it. This dog was raised with several children and the family cat. Super loving friendly dog. 

2. A guy we know had 2 female Pits. He always let them unsupervised together. My husband and I both warned them of what could happen. A fight could break out that he wouldn't be there to stop. Oh no they get along fine, they never fight, they are pets not fighting dogs.  Ok I never said he fought his dogs! So he has had these dogs over a year. I don't remember exactly when but it was sometime like last month that he called my husbands cell. The phone was cutting in and out but basically. Do you know anyone that wants a blue female pit? My husband was like what, why. Trying to hear what he is saying. His blue female killed his white/black female and his wife is freaking out. She said either get rid of her (the blue) or shoot her.   So because of his irresponsible ways his dog is dead. Then his wife wants to kill the other dog for doing whats natural. 

There are so many other tragic stories like this. One poor dog I know this happened last year. They always let their female Dobe beat on the male Pit. I told him, my husband told him and our friend told him. Don't let that happen. If he gets mad and goes to defend himself then she could get seriously hurt and you won't be able to stop him. Oh that won't happen, he always take it, he knows she is the boss. Anyway if that ever happened we would just put him to sleep or give him away. (Well thats real responsible ) So what happens? When he is about 2yrs old he tears her up. Almost kills her. They couldn't get him to stop. Luckily my friend was able to get him and then he got a new home with someone who understand Pit Bulls. Still should have never happened. They should have not let the female act in that way. I settle things here, not my dogs. Some of them have more issues with dogs then others but when it comes to toys, attention, rough play I'm always the boss in the matter and don't let a dominance issues arise where one will have to eventually fight for themselves. If they are going to let the dogs together then they need to be in control. If still a fight breaks out they should be mentally prepared and know how to stop it.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

It is impossible to train instinct out of a dog, therefore the owner must be extra vigilant for the instinctual behavior to pop up at any time. In my case that means maya jumping into a creek or pond and bringing back a stick  

I saw an episode of dog whisperer over the weekend, they took a problematic rottweiler to an animal herding facility and the dog picked up the herding right away. In my pups case I started throwing her toys across the kitchen and she brings them right back to me almost without any coaxing. Pretty amazing how dogs have these tendencies!!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Don't you think that a "fetching" instinct in is most breeds of dogs? Nearly all my dogs fetch without training. Of differing breeds. I think this is due to working closely to humans and having to retrieve items for them over so many years of being domesticated. In retrieving breeds its just been stronger bred in and the dogs will jump in icey cold water to get the kill. 

The 1st time I threw a toy from the living room to the dining room my 3 month old Corso brought it back to me and continued to do so every time.


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