# Conformation Questions



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Once upon a time, back in the dark ages before the Show & Sports subforum, there was a thread called Do you have questions about dog shows?

This is a successor to that thread. This thread is for answerable questions about dog shows, if it's something that you would like a discussion or opinions on, it would be more appropriate to start a new thread.

To start it off, I have a question. Do judges get paid for assignments?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Do judges get paid for assignments?


Yes. But from what I understand, it really isn't a considerable amount of money.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Yes. How much they're paid varies of course by the judge and the assignment they're taking. Some charge an overall fee for the day, some charge per hour, some charge per dog. The club may or may not (but usually do) pay for the judge's travel, hotel, meals, etc. I don't believe there's any ground rules to how much they can or cannot charge, but the average price I've seen seems to be about $100 a day for an "average" sized show.

Stewards, however, are strictly volunteers. They may be given a snack or something during the day, but most venues actually have rules against the stewards being compensated.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I want a list of these judges you have that will come for 100 bucks + expenses. I need them on my club's panel next year. LOL

I am the show chair of my club's show coming up in April 2011. I have about 10 judges on my panel. Their fees range from nothing (AKC Delegate, who is a judge, and are not allowed to charge any fee) except expenses, to 4.00 per dog for a couple of provisional judges, no expenses, to $250 for a judge who does several groups, to $400 + expenses for a good all rounder.

I would say the majority of good or popular judges charge between $300 to $450 PER ASSIGNMENT, or per day. Some slightly less or slightly more.

The ring stewards we use are also not volunteers. There are 2 professional steward's associations that our club has used in the past, Southeastern Ring Steward's Association, and United Ring Steward's Association. They DO get paid, I think we pay about $1,000 for them to steward all the rings at our club's show. Each Steward gets around $40 per day for their stewarding.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

seriously? my club always only does volunteer stewards all members of the club. I've done it about 8 times.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

What she said (since I'm a member of the same club).

Here's something I still don't understand....splitting the points. I understand crossover majors, but not splitting the points.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

There are professional stewards? Man, I gotta get a piece of that, I love stewarding! I really want to judge someday though. Pet dogs and judge them? I love both of those things!


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

There are actually people who charge for stewarding? Jeez, and then people wonder why half the clubs can't afford to hold shows anymore. Around here (Which are CanKC shows, but still run pretty much identical to AKC shows from what I've seen), you'd probably be escorted out of the building if you actually asked to be compensated as a steward. It's supposed to be something you just do to support the club and the sport. But who knows.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

For our club, which is rather small, it is a good bargain. We get reliable professional stewards, and our club members can then cover other things such as hospitality, catalog table, judges transportation, etc.

If you attend many shows in the southeast, you will see these professional ring stewarding groups at many shows. Southeastern always wears red jackets.

Xeph, I don't know what you mean about splitting points? I believe that is the same thing as winning a major by going Best of Winners.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Huh, well then, I guess I've known all along.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Red how big is your club? just wondering Mine and Xeph's club (I'm assuming that your keeping your membership up even tho you live out of state) is about 300 total members and about 40-50 of those are active in club activities.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

I love this idea and I loved reading the last thread.

Background: I have no background in conformation but I really really want to try it a bit someday.

1. Are there online resources for learning how to pick a "good" show puppy as far as angles, dimensions, etc. at certain ages? Basically, how do you know, if you're not familiar with looking at hundreds of puppies, which puppies are good for show homes or pet homes?

2. Who gets to go to the national competitions? It looked like those with Grand Champions? How do you get Grand Champion?


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

TorachiKatashi said:


> There are actually people who charge for stewarding? Jeez, and then people wonder why half the clubs can't afford to hold shows anymore. Around here (Which are CanKC shows, but still run pretty much identical to AKC shows from what I've seen), you'd probably be escorted out of the building if you actually asked to be compensated as a steward.* It's supposed to be something you just do to support the club and the sport.* But who knows.


Really? Perhaps your intent is not to come off snotty towards me, but that is how it reads from where I'm sitting. Not just on this post, either.

Our club prides itself on keeping entry fees as low as possible, and offering breaks to Jr Handlers, and exhibitors who are showing puppies or Bred By exhibits.

Trust me, as the show giving club, you want the entries. The 2 shows that our club hosts each year are our main fund raisers for the year. We use these funds to offer classes, public education, and to assist the dog owning public in our community, so it is very important that we make money.

Yes, some clubs have volunteer stewards. However, as you now know, there are also a number of professional groups who offer themselves for hire to clubs who choose to use them.

In addition to the professional ring stewards, I have never once heard of any judge charging by the hour for their services.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> 2. Who gets to go to the national competitions? It looked like those with Grand Champions? How do you get Grand Champion?


Which competitions are you talking about?

Breed Nationals? Westminster? Eukanuba?

Any dog can go to their breed National, Westminster invites the top 10 dogs of every breed in every group, and then after that it's a free for all to get in (Entries generally close within 5-10 minutes when everybody else is finally allowed to enter). You need a certain breed ranking and number of wins to be invited to Euk, IIRC.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Nil said:


> 2. Who gets to go to the national competitions? It looked like those with Grand Champions? How do you get Grand Champion?


I just looked this up the other day. The Eukanuba Cup (the show on TV on Thanksgiving) is the AKC National Dog Show. Because it's such a big, important show, only finished champions are allowed to enter. The top five dogs in each breed are invited to pre-enter, which makes sure that the best in the breed are there. When entries open, the show fills up really fast. I think in the past few years they've used online entries and the show fills up on the first day.

There are also National Agility and Obedience shows. They are by invitation only. 

Grand Champion is a new thing, new this year I think. No one I've talked to has any idea how it works, LOL.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> No one I've talked to has any idea how it works, LOL.


The long and short of it is, you special a dog long enough, every finished dog can become a GrCh with little trouble.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Really? Perhaps your intent is not to come off snotty towards me, but that is how it reads from where I'm sitting. Not just on this post, either.
> 
> Our club prides itself on keeping entry fees as low as possible, and offering breaks to Jr Handlers, and exhibitors who are showing puppies or Bred By exhibits.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry? I wasn't trying to be snotty in any way... and I can't remember saying ANYTHING to you in other threads that wasn't just friendly conversation... If I said something to offend you or something, I apologize, but I honestly have no idea what you're referring to.

I wasn't saying something bad about you or your club, I was just shocked to hear that there are stewards who actually charge for their services. I'd never heard of such a thing before, every show I've been to had volunteers acting as stewards (usually husbands of women involved with the club, I think) and the resources I've read have always said stewards are strictly volunteers.



RaeganW said:


> I just looked this up the other day. The Eukanuba Cup (the show on TV on Thanksgiving) is the AKC National Dog Show. Because it's such a big, important show, only finished champions are allowed to enter. The top five dogs in each breed are invited to pre-enter, which makes sure that the best in the breed are there. When entries open, the show fills up really fast. I think in the past few years they've used online entries and the show fills up on the first day.
> 
> There are also National Agility and Obedience shows. They are by invitation only.
> 
> Grand Champion is a new thing, new this year I think. No one I've talked to has any idea how it works, LOL.


Isn't Eukanuba in December? Or maybe I'm thinking of another show entirely.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yeah, they're two different shows.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

TorachiKatashi said:


> Isn't Eukanuba in December? Or maybe I'm thinking of another show entirely.


I'm sorry, I merged the two shows in my mind. The National Dog Show is put on by Purina in Philadelphia after the Macy's day Parade. Eukanuba is in December as part of the Obedience and Agility invitationals.


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## l2andom (Aug 30, 2010)

How long does a show normally last? And what goes out throughout the day? I've never gone to one so I dont know exactly how they work. Like you get there and then... you just wait your turn? Sorry, I'm noob. ;x


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

l2andom said:


> How long does a show normally last? And what goes out throughout the day? I've never gone to one so I dont know exactly how they work. Like you get there and then... you just wait your turn? Sorry, I'm noob. ;x


In my area most all breed shows go from 8am-4/5pm. That usually consits of about a dozen conformation rings and 2-3 obedience/agility rings all running at the same time with an hour break for lunch. The judges only have about 2 mins to examine each dog so some breeds are in & out of the ring before you know it. Most owners only show up for their showing time and don't hang around all day long. If there is a particular breed that you want to see then you may want to go to the club or superintendents website a day or so before the show and check out the judging program which says when each breed is scheduled to show. If you can't or forget to look up the program early then go to the superindents booth when you first get to the show and pick up a program.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Can ILP dogs be entered in their National Specialty?


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> Can ILP dogs be entered in their National Specialty?


Not in conformation, or do you mean performance events?

ILP dogs are required to be s/n'd so they are ineligible for regular conformation events. I highly doubt they are allowed to enter veteran's, which does allow altered dogs.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

TorachiKatashi said:


> There are actually people who charge for stewarding? Jeez, and then people wonder why half the clubs can't afford to hold shows anymore. Around here (Which are CanKC shows, but still run pretty much identical to AKC shows from what I've seen), you'd probably be escorted out of the building if you actually asked to be compensated as a steward. It's supposed to be something you just do to support the club and the sport. But who knows.


Well, ... I've never ASKED, but I have been GIVEN compensation to steward at a CKC show.

$ 40 / day

Woo hoo ! ... beer money ! .. :rockon:


That's about HALF of the provincial minimum wage but ... it's the gesture (on both sides) that counts.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

This came up in Xeph's OT website thread, but I felt it would be more appropriate here.

Say a dog is the only dog of his breed entered on a day, but he ends up getting first in his group/best in show. Does he still not get any points, because he missed out on breed competition?



Shaina said:


> Not in conformation, or do you mean performance events?
> 
> ILP dogs are required to be s/n'd so they are ineligible for regular conformation events. I highly doubt they are allowed to enter veteran's, which does allow altered dogs.


Yeah, I meant performance events, because ohhhh, the ribbons!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If the dog is first in his group, and there was a major in ANY of the other breeds showing in group, the dog will get a major. Some people try to get their dog's majors that way. Generally doesn't work out well, but it happens.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Oh boy, just ONCE in my lifetime I would like to win a major with a Gr. 1.


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## Dobelove (Jun 17, 2010)

I think you guys are confusing Eukanuba and westminster xD
To go to Eukanuba, you need to be in the top 25 of your breed (I think this year they started doing top 20), win an all breed BIS, finish from the BBE class, win your breeds national specialty, or finsih from the amateur owner handler class. (Yes, they do have to be champions) ETA: They added finsihing your dogs grand championship. All of these have to be in the qualifying period (October to October Not sure the days)
For Westminster, the top 5 of each breed are invited and get in for sure. Then entries open for all other champions but there is a limited entry of I THINK 2,500 but I could be way off.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

all of these questions also should be answered by what showing venue your answer belongs with or some folks that do not realise there are multiple types with different rules are going to get confused.


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