# Does anyone know a real way to become a certified dog trainer?



## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I have a background as a teacher, and I love working with kids and animals, even though I haven't done as much of it as I would like. My end goal, ideally, would be to become a dog training instructor at a vocational high school. 

To do that, though, I would first need to become a certified dog trainer myself. I was trying to get trained as a professional dog trainer and get paid for doing something I love (working with animals), but I'm not really sure how to go about it. I've inquired about a few top rated programs by the BBB, but they flatly told me that the certification I would receive isn't exactly a license to train dogs, because the dog training certifications are not regulated; there's no standard license to certify a trainer. 

If that's so, how do you become a certified trainer? Please don't give me the "being a dog trainer takes years of experience" spiel. If you can't get experience training dogs professionally without training dogs professionally, how does anyone who doesn't have close personal connections to a dog trainer become a trainer? It sounded like an exciting field that could lead to other careers, such as vet tech and maybe service dog trainer, but if I can't figure out how to get past step one, I can't really do anything. 

The last thing I want to do is pay $5,000 for a cute little piece of paper from a glorified pet store that will vouch for my dog training abilities and mean nothing to people further on the rungs.

Now, the programs I checked out both provide access to an established dog trainer as a mentor, but I'm not sure that's enough. I would think that I would need to "student dog train" or something to have real verifiable experience.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> because the dog training certifications are not regulated; there's no standard license to certify a trainer.


This is true, for better or worse. One certification I like (and have) is the CPDT. Look into the CCPDT and their website. You do need to take a written test, have a few hundred hours of training logged, referrals, and renew your certification through continuing education every 3 years. The rigor and commitment to force free training are the reasons why I like this organization. 

Otherwise, pick a trainer you like and see if you can train under them. Pat Miller, Karen Pryor, and Jean Donaldson are some nationally renown trainers who have their own certification process. I've done level 1 of Pat's academy and can say it is very challenging, rewarding, and rigorous. She holds her certification (PMCT) to very high standards and even has a private (and active) forum type thing for her students to discuss problems and questions.

Yes, Petco and Petsmart have their own trainer training process. It may not be bad and depends heavily on each location and who is running things, to my knowledge.

I trained through my shelter, who had their own process. But they already had two CPDTs on board and I got my training hours for CPDT through being a trainer there.

ABC (animal behavior college) I've heard is pricey but is another big-name organization to go through. I've seen less consistency in terms of quality and methods through ABC trainers than through CPDT ones. 

Otherwise, you can also ask trainers in the area that you like if you can apprentice under them. Dog training is really one of those things where, for better or worse, once you think you're ready you can go out into the world and market yourself.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks for the advice. I have been in contact with Animal Behavior College. I'm glad to know they are a recognizable name. Do you know anything about this school? CATCH Canine Academy? I've been trying to decide between ABC and CATCH. Both have similar prices and programs, but the CATCH program seems more affordable, while the ABC program appears to provide more support. I'm just not sure how well recognized CATCH is, though, and I would guess that, since the certification isn't regulated (which is something I'm not used to, being a teacher), I would need to go with a program that is popular and easy for the dog training industry to recognize and accept.

I'm sorry, but price sort of is an issue right now, because I don't want to wait. I've wanted to do dog training since I was a kid, and I want to use what ever training I get as a stepping stone to getting trained to make service dogs. I think dogs do the most good when they are working. More dogs being trained for jobs potentially means fewer dogs being sheltered and euthanized.

I'm going to repeat that I've been interested in training animals since I was a kid. I love behaviorism and conditioning theories. I love showing animals how to follow patterns and achieve new behaviors. I need to be trained on how to do it effectively, though. I often don't do well without a well organized plan.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I've never heard of CATCH, thanks for the link!

Honestly, certifications are lovely but I have found that reputation is by far how people find you and contact you. This year I was mostly teaching as an uncertified trainer and business was booming, because of the reputation of my facility. 

I think you would get a lot more business working under someone and then branching out, than through the certification route. I'm not turning you away from certification at all! But first hand knowledge can't be beat. I went into this profession with a ton of personal experience and a deep understanding of the science aspect; I still have learned more in this past year just WORKING as a dog trainer (again, certification or not), than ever before. 

Also, if you want to eventually train service dogs specifically, I would doubly recommend finding someone to train under. Within the umbrella of dog training there are different branches and specialties. NO certification will spit you out ready to train service dogs. Only specific organizations or experiences will prepare you for that.

I totally understand money being an issue! One great way to wet your training chops immediately is to offer training services/volunteer at your local animal shelter. If the shelter likes your work, that is a shoe in for getting business as well ("Hey, you just adopted one of our dogs... Did you know we have an awesome trainer who volunteers here?). We have a number of legitimate trainers, certified and not, who work with our difficult shelter dogs. We are always happy to refer clients to them, even though we offer a variety of services ourselves!

So in a nutshell, best of luck finding the certification that fits you! But my two cents is, don't worry so much about the "popularity" of your letters, and instead focus on honing your technique and creating relationships/reputation in your community. That will take you so far.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks again, but I'm just under the impression that it will be pretty difficult to get in as an apprentice. I don't know any dog trainers in the area, and I would suspect that they would require some training before I would even be able to work with them. I mean, I don't know about you, but I wasn't allowed to enter the classroom as a student teacher without months or verifiable coursework under my belt. I would assume any reputable professional would want the same.

If you don't think so, what would you recommend I do? I mean, how would you recommend I approach the situation? I'm comparing the animal shelter to a title I school; even a title I school wouldn't allow a teacher to volunteer teach to gain experience without enough prior knowledge and training.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

It is so variable that it's impossible to say for sure. I've seen (ie, through ads I've glanced over here and there) some places look to hire people with experience, and other places look for anyone who had a good mind to learn. At the end of the day, I don't think it's a bad idea to even start at Petco or Petsmart. But you won't know until you ask, right? So even if you don't personally know any dog trainers in the area, go take a class offered by ones you like and then ask if they have any opportunities. 

I still think the shelter route is an amazing one to take. But I am biased  Every shelter has a different volunteer program. Ours is committed to training our volunteers how to train, even if they have no experience. So it really depends!

Do you have a dog? A lot of trainers can start there, too. Your dog is your first student and teacher when it comes to behavior mod. and complex training. If you don't have a dog, then get a dog!! 

And lastly, you might want to be prepared to watch, learn, and train out of your own time and pocket for a while before starting to make money. I was fortunate enough to get to the right place at the right time. But I didn't start out as a trainer. I started out as a shelter technician and spent extra hours just observing classes, then co-teaching, then teaching. 6 months working a full time job and learning training on the side. Before this, I was a butcher's apprentice. I worked two other jobs to make ends meet and learned how to cut meat for free on the side. I quit my existing jobs (which I enjoyed) and moved over 2000 miles away to not-be-paid to learn something I wanted to learn. Believe me when I say I understand financial issues. But I also speak from the gut when I say sometimes you need to sacrifice some time and energy before getting where you ultimately want to be. The part time job that is completely unrelated can still feel fulfilling if you see the end goal it feeds. You sounds like you know what you want to do and that is worth more than anything. I'm sorry if this line of advice is a bit off from what you're asking. But I don't see a quick point A to B for most passions in life.

ETA.. there are other trainers on this forum and I hope they chime in. Trainingjunkie, Asherlove, Petpeeve... Maybe Gingerkid, Bentwings...?


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

It's good advice. It's been a while since I contacted my local shelter, but they didn't have any opportunities like that, to my knowledge. They were willing to let me practice with a few of their dogs, however (or at least it sounded like a possibility). I guess I'll check there and find out if the offer still stands. It's been about a year since I contacted them. 

I don't currently have a dog, and I guess I don't have a dog for the same reason that I don't have kids. I just don't feel like I have the time and resources to devote the care to them that they need. Right now, I don't even live in a place that allows pets. It's actually a pretty common occurrence in this area. I could move somewhere else, but I could also rent a house and become a foster parent. I'm sorry, but I don't want that responsibility. I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm okay with teaching kids, but I don't have any of my own, and I don't foster either. I like the idea of working with and teaching dogs, but owning one is a little different, especially if you aren't home much. Dogs, like kids, kind of need a "stay-at-home-mom," which I'm not.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> It's good advice. It's been a while since I contacted my local shelter, but they didn't have any opportunities like that, to my knowledge. They were willing to let me practice with a few of their dogs, however (or at least it sounded like a possibility). I guess I'll check there and find out if the offer still stands. It's been about a year since I contacted them.
> 
> I don't currently have a dog, and I guess I don't have a dog for the same reason that I don't have kids. I just don't feel like I have the time and resources to devote the care to them that they need. Right now, I don't even live in a place that allows pets. It's actually a pretty common occurrence in this area. I could move somewhere else, but I could also rent a house and become a foster parent. I'm sorry, but I don't want that responsibility. I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm okay with teaching kids, but I don't have any of my own, and I don't foster either. I like the idea of working with and teaching dogs, but owning one is a little different, especially if you aren't home much. Dogs, like kids, kind of need a "stay-at-home-mom," which I'm not.


But yet, dogs don't really need a stay-at-home-parent. 

Personally, not speaking as a dog trainer but speaking as someone who has trained dogs (fosters and my own), I would be hesitant to use a trainer that doesn't, or at least hasn't in the past (as an adult owner, not a family dog as a kid), owned dogs. A dog at least but preferably more than one or experience with fosters or roommates dogs or such. Unlike teaching reading and writing to kids in a school, training dogs is more about the whole picture of every little bit of life. I can teach a kid to read, but ask me about toilet training and I'd be hopeless. Teaching a dog to sit or stay isn't hard, that is like the reading and writing; working with a dog that has fear issues or resource guards or has dog aggression is something that having a dog and having more than one dog especially gives insight into. Even if your dog doesn't have those issues.

Example--
Probably most of your clients would be people working full time. Probably many will want advice on things like crate training or training a dog to be alone during the day. If you don't think a dog can be alone during the day, are you able to give sound training advice?


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I have a lot to learn, I'll admit that, but right now my best advice would be just not to leave the dog alone if it can be avoided. Treat it like a child, and hire a babysitter. They're like children and need constant supervision. Unless I misunderstood, that's the advice I was given when I owned dogs. That's one reason why kenneling services and "doggy daycares" are so popular, isn't it? It's like having a small child, right?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I have a lot to learn, I'll admit that, but right now my best advice would be just not to leave the dog alone if it can be avoided. They're like children and need constant supervision. Unless I misunderstood, that's the advice I've been given when I owned dogs. That's one reason why kenneling services and "doggy day cares" are so popular, isn't it?


Very few people have either the finances to take a dog to daycare daily or to stay at home with the dog all day. Actually, it can be a problem when a dog is used to having someone around all the time and then that someone has to go to work or on a trip to to hospital etc. Separation anxiety can occur without a dog having had total attention but it is more likely to be an issue when a puppy grows up never leaving how to be alone. 

The idea of constant supervision is true for puppies _when they are not securely contained_. You're working to prevent them from chewing on stuff, peeing on the floor etc. However, crating or using an exercise pen creates a safe area for them to not be supervised. 

Plus, not all dogs are suitable for dog day care. Some are OK with it but only once or twice a week before it is overstimulating. Others are not OK with strange dogs in any way, shape or form. Some love it but for their owners, it would be more than a mortgage payment each month.

So example in this context--
What advice would you give someone who has a dog-aggressive dog that cannot go to a day care?

(BTW-- I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, I'm not trying to derail your goals. Just highlight a few things that I at least would consider when selecting a trainer; as much or more than any letters after their name)


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Shell said:


> Very few people have either the finances to take a dog to daycare daily or to stay at home with the dog all day. Actually, it can be a problem when a dog is used to having someone around all the time and then that someone has to go to work or on a trip to to hospital etc. Separation anxiety can occur without a dog having had total attention but it is more likely to be an issue when a puppy grows up never leaving how to be alone.
> 
> The idea of constant supervision is true for puppies _when they are not securely contained_. You're working to prevent them from chewing on stuff, peeing on the floor etc. However, crating or using an exercise pen creates a safe area for them to not be supervised.
> 
> ...


Okay, 

My first piece of advice would be to hire a pet sitter or call a friend, but if the owner can't do that, perhaps if the dog is kennel trained, they could put the dog in the kennel for the day? If the dog doesn't like being in a home kennel, though, I'm not sure I would know what to do.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If dogs needed a stay-at-home parent, I know maybe 2 families who would have a dog. That's extremely unrealistic. 

Daycare isn't available in all areas (nearest one is 45 minutes from me) and, besides, most people can barely afford daycare for their kids, let alone their dog. Also unrealistic.

Dogs can be trained/conditioned to enjoy their crates. That would be one big reason someone would call a trainer .


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Yeah, so I take that to mean you would recommend some preliminary dog training coursework in my case? I do feel bad about not knowing the simple ABC's of dog training, but I really shouldn't. I mean, no one's ever taught them to me...I could probably pick something up with a few courses and some hands-on experience. I like learning; I'm just not great at finding it for myself.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Okay,
> 
> My first piece of advice would be to hire a pet sitter or call a friend, but if the owner can't do that, perhaps if the dog is kennel trained, they could put the dog in the kennel for the day? If the dog doesn't like being in a home kennel, though, I'm not sure I would know what to do.


By "home kennel" do you mean a crate or an indoor pen? Or do you mean a boarding facility that has kennels?

Real world answer-- dog stays home alone during the day and is fine because he sleeps all day because he is given enough exercise before and after the human's working hours. (Barring SA or health issues of course).

A typical pet sitter in my Midwestern, mid-priced market is going to run about $30 for a visit/walk. That's an hour or so visit and walk. $150 per week, 4 weeks a month. $600 per month. That's more than the rent for a one bedroom apartment, more than the mortgage of a small home.



aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Yeah, so I take that to mean you would recommend some preliminary dog training coursework in my case? I do feel bad about not knowing the simple ABC's of dog training, but I really shouldn't. I mean, no one's ever taught them to me...I could probably pick something up with a few courses and some hands-on experience.


Shelter volunteering is great way to do this, but also, consider rescue groups even if you cannot foster a dog. Offer to walk dogs or be a short-term foster (a few nights; since your place doesn't allow pets, this would be more like pet sitting at someone's house maybe) when a main foster has a work or family commitment (to avoid boarding a dog which costs money). Adoption events with groups of dogs that mean wrangling the dogs and supervising dog-dog interaction. Etc. Nothing beats getting "hands on"


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Shell said:


> By "home kennel" do you mean a crate or an indoor pen? Or do you mean a boarding facility that has kennels?
> 
> Real world answer-- dog stays home alone during the day and is fine because he sleeps all day because he is given enough exercise before and after the human's working hours. (Barring SA or health issues of course).
> 
> ...


I meant a home kennel--that big fenced in area that people usually keep their dogs in to keep them from leaving the yard--it looks like a big cage. I've seen some dogs who hate it, though, and will try to bite or dig or chew their way out. I was thinking pet sitters were like babysitters--you could find the neighbor's kid and let him do it for around $20 per day. If he gets enough dogs, he'll make an okay wage. I guess it depends on where you live, though. 

As for giving a dog enough exercise, my experience is it's like they never get enough. You could walk some dogs for hours, and they'll still have energy to spare, especially if they see a cat or a rabbit. 

*sigh* I'm impressed with how well some people can train dogs, but I wish it wasn't so much of a mystery to me.

I do know that an untrained dog can be a terror, though, and I guess I live around a lot of bad examples.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If you don't think dogs should be at home alone all day, it wouldn't do any good to hire the neighbor kid---kids go to school. That can work if, say, you go away for the weekend and have the neighbor kid walk and feed your dog, but as far as "never leave the dog unsupervised" or providing walks while the owner is at work, that just wouldn't be much of a solution. It's the same as the owner going to work.

I feel like you have no experience with dogs and don't know much about them. I think getting to know some dogs, spending some time with them, learning about what dogs are like, would be the logical first step here. Just jumping into training won't work if you don't understand dogs. If you can't have your own dog now, volunteering at a shelter or rescue would help. 

To be honest, I wouldn't hire a dog trainer who doesn't have their own dog.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I meant a home kennel--that big fenced in area that people usually keep their dogs in to keep them from leaving the yard--it looks like a big cage. I've seen some dogs who hate it, though, and will try to bite or dig or chew their way out. I was thinking pet sitters were like babysitters--you could find the neighbor's kid and let him do it for around $20 per day. If he gets enough dogs, he'll make an okay wage. I guess it depends on where you live, though.
> 
> As for giving a dog enough exercise, my experience is it's like they never get enough. You could walk some dogs for hours, and they'll still have energy to spare, especially if they see a cat or a rabbit.


Err....

Outdoor kennels come with a lot of risk in many areas. Dogs can dig out, some can climb out, the weather presents a risk (heat, cold, sun, wind, storms, ice, etc), a barking dog can turn into a city fine when the neighbors complain or worse, a barking dog means someone throws poison to the dog or shoots it.

Outdoor kennels can be used safely but it really depends highly on the dog, the location, and the climate plus it does NOT in any way negate a dog's need for exercise and interaction. An outdoor kennel can even become an "easy out" for people who don't want to deal with training problems that are more apparent when a dog is indoors with them regularly.

Dogs can be taught an off-switch. Sure, a young healthy dog may walk for hours or go after prey but that means training. Reasonable amount of physical exercise, then mental exercise to tire the brain, and training to "leave it" for prey. 

I work full time. I have a Boxer/RR and Pit Bull. I foster pitties. I have one right now which means I have 3 dogs, all over 50 lbs, all of high energy breed types, aged 8 months to 10 years. Every one of them is napping right now.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Actually, I think it's a little worse than that. I have experience doing the wrong things. I think I've gotten a lot of advice, or at least ideas, from people who don't know how to take care of dogs themselves. In fact, I'm pretty sure I have. It's one thing to never learn how to count, but if you've learned that 2 + 2 is 5, then I think that is a little worse.

I'm not the one who taught myself these bad techniques, though. If all you see are bad techniques, you're likely to copy what you see, especially if you don't know what really works.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Shell said:


> Err....
> 
> Outdoor kennels come with a lot of risk in many areas. Dogs can dig out, some can climb out, the weather presents a risk (heat, cold, sun, wind, storms, ice, etc), a barking dog can turn into a city fine when the neighbors complain or worse, a barking dog means someone throws poison to the dog or shoots it.
> 
> ...


I imagine you must be really tired after work. It must take a really long time to tire them out.

I admit I have some potentially harmful preconceived notions about dogs that might make successfully working with them difficult. If I've never seen an example of successful effective training, though, just the finished product, how can I not have these ideas? I really don't think getting experience without being informed is really going to do any good. The shelter in my area doesn't employ dog trainers, so there's no one to learn from.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Actually, I think it's a little worse than that. I have experience doing the wrong things. I think I've gotten a lot of advice, or at least ideas, from people who don't know how to take care of dogs themselves. In fact, I'm pretty sure I have. It's one thing to never learn how to count, but if you've learned that 2 + 2 is 5, then I think that is a little worse.
> 
> I'm not the one who taught myself these bad techniques, though. If all you see are bad techniques, you're likely to copy what you see, especially if you don't know what really works.


And that's OK because you gotta start somewhere. But it means you may need to look farther around to find a suitable trainer to work with or a place to study if you have limited options in your area. 

Have you looked into DVDS and reading (either Kindle or actual books) to familiarize yourself with some techniques? Many books can be gotten free via inter-library loan. 



aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I imagine you must be really tired after work. It must take a really long time to tire them out.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Because, they learn that not every day is a big adventure. Today it was raining with high winds. Not a safe day to go to the park for example. So, it was indoor training and a bit of goofing around and some time on the covered porch watching the world go by.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I imagine you must be really tired after work. It must take a really long time to tire them out.


That's kind of her point, I think. You don't try to physically tire the dog out all the time. That will just condition the dog to require more and more exercise. You provide a reasonable amount of physical exercise, a reasonable amount of mental exercise, and teach the dog to settle.

I also have 3 dogs, 2 of whom are young and active. Today we didn't do anything, because it's 10 degrees and the wind is blowing like crazy, windchill below zero. When I got home from work, the young dogs chased each other in the backyard for a while and now we're all watching TV and they have chewies to keep them occupied.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Shell said:


> And that's OK because you gotta start somewhere. But it means you may need to look farther around to find a suitable trainer to work with or a place to study if you have limited options in your area.
> 
> Have you looked into DVDS and reading (either Kindle or actual books) to familiarize yourself with some techniques? Many books can be gotten free via inter-library loan.
> 
> ...


If I really want to learn something, I feel like I have to do it in a structured setting. A class just isn't worth it to me if it's free and just for knowledge. I've read about classical conditioning, and I've sat and watched The Dog Whisperer and Victoria Stillwell work their magic with the dogs, but, eh, I really didn't learn that much. It just wouldn't work for me. I taught my pet how to shake, sit, and speak, but that was about it. From what I've seen, dog training is like learning how to hack or code. You have to feel your way through it to teach yourself, and people don't help you directly. I just don't thrive in situations like that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Don't watch Cesar Millan! Or, yes, watch it, to learn what not to do, but for pete's sake don't do anything he does. He's a TV personality with shiny teeth and that's about it, he's not a good trainer. And, really, Victoria Stillwell is better, but the TV show is not for educational purposes. TV shows are for entertainment, so most of the educational stuff (the boring stuff ) is edited out.

There are some educational videos on Youtube. Zac George and Kikopup are good.

All the dog training classes I know require you to have a dog to work with. It would be pretty useless otherwise. So I'm not sure what to recommend in that regard. I can't think of any dog training class that you can do without a dog. Reading about the theories and processes is great---you can't get far without that knowledge---but for a class you kind of need a dog to work with.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> If I really want to learn something, I feel like I have to do it in a structured setting. A class just isn't worth it to me if it's free and just for knowledge. I've read about classical conditioning, and I've sat and watched The Dog Whisperer and Victoria Stillwell work their magic with the dogs, but, eh, I really didn't learn that much. It just wouldn't work for me. I taught my pet how to shake, sit, and speak, but that was about it. From what I've seen, dog training is like learning how to hack or code. You have to feel your way through it to teach yourself, and people don't help you directly. I just don't thrive in situations like that.


"Just for knowledge" translates to "knowledge needed to progress in this field" 

Free is awesome!!! Don't knock free, because reading and watching quality sources means free knowledge which means free "step up"

Neither of those individuals you mentioned are trainers that I would suggested learning from via DVD or book. Victoria Stillwell isn't bad for advice on average "made for TV" issues but she doesn't get into the deeper concepts much and, as like much of TV, they shortcut the training needed to get the seen results.

Google and read---

Patricia McConnell
Sophia Yin
Ian Dunbar
Jean Donaldson
Karen Pryor
Turid Rugaas


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks. Do you think I should invest in any of those dog training courses? I would think, or hope at least, that it would provide an accelerated way of learning the basics.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Thanks. Do you think I should invest in any of those dog training courses? I would think, or hope at least, that it would provide an accelerated way of learning the basics.


I'd say, start with the free stuff. Get a foundation of theoretical knowledge. Then, take that good baseline knowledge into play with some volunteering or dog sitting or dog walking or all of the above. 

Then (maybe) invest money into it after all that stuff when it has a stronger potential to pay back and for you to have a better career.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Canyx said:


> This is true, for better or worse. One certification I like (and have) is the CPDT. Look into the CCPDT and their website. You do need to take a written test, have a few hundred hours of training logged, referrals, and renew your certification through continuing education every 3 years. The rigor and commitment to force free training are the reasons why I like this organization.
> 
> Otherwise, pick a trainer you like and see if you can train under them. Pat Miller, Karen Pryor, and Jean Donaldson are some nationally renown trainers who have their own certification process. I've done level 1 of Pat's academy and can say it is very challenging, rewarding, and rigorous. She holds her certification (PMCT) to very high standards and even has a private (and active) forum type thing for her students to discuss problems and questions.
> 
> ...


I think I like Karen Pryor. It appears she offers training for other animals besides dogs. That tells me that clicker training can be applied to a variety of animals and is probably the most useful for my purposes. I would like to be trained by her program, but this looks more or less like a page of resources, not somewhere I can sign up to be enrolled in an animal training class, at least not one that offers certification.

I've read a little about Karen Pryor's clicker training methods. It feels familiar.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Hmm... I'm not going to say you can't be a good dog trainer without a dog. But I have never seen a good dog trainer without a dog. Your dog is your first teacher. You can learn all the theories and techniques, get certifications, work an hour at a time with different dogs... But nothing really beats the understanding you get from having a dog in your lifestyle. Almost all training is tied into lifestyle, especially service dog training. 

Here's an example I think I used on this forum before... I cotaught puppy kindergarten with someone who had great technique and has trained many different zoo animals in her lifetime. Her professional training experience was more than mine. Yet I arguably ran a better puppy class (according to my supervisor). How? Because my partner was so focused on the obedience behaviors and treated the puppies like adult dogs. None of the training was wrong and her technique and advice were correct. But I centered my class around socialization, handling, and puppy problems like chewing and nipping. Why had my coworker, who had worked with otters and tigers and bears, not taken that route? Because she has never raised a puppy before, and I have. Everything I know about puppies, she probably does too. But I know how to apply it due to experience. 

Also, there is a level of relatability you have with your clients. Is is sooo important.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, that would require moving, I think, because where I am currently doesn't allow pets. Also, it would take a little time. I'm not planning to get another puppy. They're cute, but they don't really fit my busy lifestyle. If I do get another dog, it will probably be a trained foster dog. Maybe that's the easy way out, but I know I don't have time for a puppy, and they can develop such bad habits almost out of nowhere.

When I was a kid, I had a puppy that I trained to pick up the kittens and carry them in its mouth to bring to me. At first, the dog did it very gently and didn't hurt the cats, but as time went on, things changed. Oh, I hate I ever taught that dog that trick. The dog eventually started chasing cats and trying to break their necks...so terrible. I didn't think I taught him to do anything like that! Puppies are honestly some of the most destructive creatures in the natural world.

Sorry, but at this point for me, it seems like working with a dog is like working with a juvenile delinquent (which is what I did for a living, but anyway). The normal rules of society do not apply, because they will constantly try to undermine them to get away with things. They'll also take advantage of loopholes, twist your words, and try to use anything they can to further their goals (which are usually directly opposed to yours). If you give a kid in the justice system a sharp pencil, he or she could make it into a weapon. If you teach them to code, they may use it to hack. They "make good bad," and the more freedom you give them, the less they can handle.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Well, that would require moving, I think, because where I am currently doesn't allow pets. Also, it would take a little time. I'm not planning to get another puppy. They're cute, but they don't really fit my busy lifestyle. If I do get another dog, it will probably be a trained foster dog. Maybe that's the easy way out, but I know I don't have time for a puppy, and they can develop such bad habits almost out of nowhere.
> 
> When I was a kid, I had a puppy that I trained to pick up the kittens and carry them in its mouth to bring to me. At first, the dog did it very gently and didn't hurt the cats, but as time went on, things changed. Oh, I hate I ever taught that dog that trick. The dog eventually started chasing cats and trying to break their necks...so terrible. I didn't think I taught him to do anything like that!


Working with dogs doesn't require owning a dog. It does mean getting hands on, into the trenches so to speak with dogs. I have (non-professionally but functionally) trained horses without ever owning one. But I traded shoveling stalls and bathing horses for riding and training lessons and then progressed to trading training for riding access on more and more skilled/trained horses. Obviously horses don't live in the house, but what I am saying is: hands-on experience, build on it, then trade on it, and then make money on it (on in my case, I just traded work for riding). But you have to build skills via experience. 

Was that dog a terrier? Did it develop prey drive that countered training? Asking a dog to carry kittens in its mouth is kinda asking for trouble anyways (NOT blaming you as kid though!!).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yep! That's why people need trainers . It would be good practice anyway. . .who wants to hire a trainer who can't train a puppy? But to start with, yeah, an adult dog would be easier. You'd have to raise a puppy at some point though, or you wouldn't be able to help other people with their puppies.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

--As something of an aside--

Editing posts is helpful for correcting spelling or grammar errors or for adding slight additions to a thought but if you add an entirely new thought or area of discussion as an edit, a lot of people won't see it and it can make their replies seem quite confusing too. I do edit posts sometimes with more info if I can try to get it quickly in before other people have replied, but once people start replying, most of them aren't going back to look for an edit. 

Adding this paragraph for example opens a whole new line of discussion that might not be connected to the post before an edit 

(paragraph here...)


> Sorry, but at this point for me, it seems like working with a dog is like working with a juvenile delinquent (which is what I did for a living, but anyway). The normal rules of society do not apply, because they will constantly try to undermine them to get away with things. They'll also take advantage of loopholes, twist your words, and try to use anything they can to further their goals (which are usually directly opposed to yours). If you give a kid in the justice system a sharp pencil, he or she could make it into a weapon. If you teach them to code, they may use it to hack. They "make good bad," and the more freedom you give them, the less they can handle.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

It was a VERY smart dog whatever it was, but it started chasing everything that moved. It caught and killed rats, squirrels, rabbits, etc. It was a terror in the neighborhood. It even chased down and fought with other dogs. Oh, and it also started chasing cars, and one finally caught it. The dog was never quite the same after that. It stopped being so trainable and started being pretty aggressive, and it did whatever it wanted. It could figure out how to get out of almost anything, and it reached the point where I couldn't keep the dog outside. 

I'm oddly proud of that dog, though, even though he was terrible. That was honestly the most intelligent dog I ever owned. A lot of the things he learned he taught himself by watching us. None of my other dogs were able to do that. Too bad he just used it to cause more trouble. If that dog were a kid, he would have been in juvenile detention. I remember him joining a gang of other dogs and going on a reign of terror around the neighborhood, mostly biting and injuring small animals, getting into fights with other dogs, moving his girlfriend and her kids into our yard, etc.

I have mixed opinions about that dog. It defended me and probably cared about me, but it knew how to get into more trouble than I had ever imagined. It seemed like nothing was a match for that dog. A man I didn't want my mother to be around had a dog that was supposed to be part wolf and my dog tried to chase it like a cat! The man didn't like that my dog attacked his dog (but really this time I felt like it was justified) and threatened to kill it if I didn't get it off of his property. Apparently, my dog ran the neighborhood. My dog wasn't very big, either!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> It was a VERY smart dog whatever it was, but it started chasing everything that moved. It caught and killed rats, squirrels, rabbits, etc. It was a terror in the neighborhood. It even chased down and fought with other dogs. Oh, and it also started chasing cars, and one finally caught it. The dog was never quite the same after that. He stopped being so trainable and started being pretty aggressive.


Prey drive towards cats and small animals is normal for a lot of dogs. It is trainable to a varying degree but management is often the key (i.e. leashes, long lines, fences). Dog aggression isn't typical but it isn't unusual either. Again, training and management which of course if you were a kid, wasn't your responsibility but it would be something to be aware of now. 

Allowing a dog to chase those animals in the neighborhood is not appropriate nor safe. Chasing cars is highly unsafe and inappropriate beyond the issues of other animals because it puts human lives at risk.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The things is, though, is that dogs don't want to be terrible, they don't deliberately want to hurt you, they have been bred for thousands of years to work with humans (in various capacities, depending on breed) and naturally want to please humans. The problem is, many humans are terrible at communicating with their dog, to help the dog understand what they want. That's supposed to be what a trainer does---learn how to communicate to the dog what is wanted and how the dog can do it. Most dog owners give very conflicting messages to their dogs. It's really a miracle that most dogs turn out kind of OK.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

So what was your user name here before?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Sorry, but at this point for me, it seems like working with a dog is like working with a juvenile delinquent (which is what I did for a living, but anyway). The normal rules of society do not apply, because they will constantly try to undermine them to get away with things. They'll also take advantage of loopholes, twist your words, and try to use anything they can to further their goals (which are usually directly opposed to yours). If you give a kid in the justice system a sharp pencil, he or she could make it into a weapon. If you teach them to code, they may use it to hack. They "make good bad," and the more freedom you give them, the less they can handle.


If you do pursue dog training, I would recommend leaving your experience with human clients out of it. What you wrote here is untrue. I mean, I can make some analogies regarding dog training and juvenile delinquents. But it would do you good to remove emotion from dog training. You can be emotional and passionate about training. You cannot assign human emotions to dogs without very careful deliberation. One huge reason why there is a lot of bad 'training' these days is baseless emotional judgment of a dog's behavior.

Dogs don't try to undermine, twist words, and make good into bad. Yes, I can see them doing unwanted behaviors for things they want (ex. barking in your face till you give them a treat). But in a nutshell, if a dog's behavior leads to something desirable (food, freedom, attention, etc.), the dog will do it more. If a dog's behavior leads to nothing, or something undesirable, they will stop doing it. That is the whole basis to training dogs. I do think dogs are complex, intelligent, amazing animals. But I despise the mindset of a dog doing something out of stubbornness, spite, revenge, or any other emotional thing people assign to them. The results and training methods that then follow for the dogs are usually unscientific and borderline abusive (some cases, not even borderline). 

Honestly, the way you are currently describing dogs and puppies make it sound like a conflict, a battle, a struggle... It doesn't need to be any of those. I appreciate your open mindedness, your observations of your own current limitations, and the research you are putting into this line of work. I do think if you look and work hard enough, there are opportunities to learn more. Keep looking!


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Canyx said:


> If you do pursue dog training, I would recommend leaving your experience with human clients out of it. What you wrote here is untrue. I mean, I can make some analogies regarding dog training and juvenile delinquents. But it would do you good to remove emotion from dog training. You can be emotional and passionate about training. You cannot assign human emotions to dogs without very careful deliberation. One huge reason why there is a lot of bad 'training' these days is baseless emotional judgment of a dog's behavior.
> 
> Dogs don't try to undermine, twist words, and make good into bad. Yes, I can see them doing unwanted behaviors for things they want (ex. barking in your face till you give them a treat). But in a nutshell, if a dog's behavior leads to something desirable (food, freedom, attention, etc.), the dog will do it more. If a dog's behavior leads to nothing, or something undesirable, they will stop doing it. That is the whole basis to training dogs. I do think dogs are complex, intelligent, amazing animals. But I despise the mindset of a dog doing something out of stubbornness, spite, revenge, or any other emotional thing people assign to them. The results and training methods that then follow for the dogs are usually unscientific and borderline abusive (some cases, not even borderline).
> 
> Honestly, the way you are currently describing dogs and puppies make it sound like a conflict, a battle, a struggle... It doesn't need to be any of those. I appreciate your open mindedness, your observations of your own current limitations, and the research you are putting into this line of work. I do think if you look and work hard enough, there are opportunities to learn more. Keep looking!


I just need to get away from the bad influences and actually learn some real behavioral modification. I'm not saying that dogs are inherently evil or anything. I'm just saying that they are opportunists, like most animals, and, unchecked, their instincts can really wreak havoc on their surroundings. I don't think dogs are bad people or anything. The dogs I've owned would have probably given their lives for me, even though I never really succeeded in training them to do things I wanted that would have made my life a little easier, like not pulling at the leash, barking at random things, giving chase to smaller animals and other dogs, etc. 

I also acknowledge that I have a history of failing with dogs. I started keeping dogs when I was a young teenager, but it always fell into the same pattern. I raise a cute little puppy. It turns into a dog. The dog develops lots of really bad habits and refuses to really break those habits. I lose interest in the dog.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I have to wonder at the underlying reasons for your desire to be a dog trainer. I've been looking for trainers for the last several months, and I can say with certainty that I would never consider a trainer that didn't HAVE a dog, or didn't have a history of owning AND training dogs (either by showing, working, or breeding). And to be a GREAT trainer, you'd need experience in all life stages of development so... puppies.

It sounds like you are drawn to training for the mental challenge most of all - for figuring out what makes them tick. It's an analytical approach, but seems to be lacking in heart. The way you're talking about dogs in general doesn't really come across as someone who LOVES dogs, which I feel is a key element in a successful trainer. I appreciate that you are acknowledging where your lack of experience exists and you're looking for ways to learn how to improve your knowledge base. But knowledge and experience go hand-in-hand; you simply can't have one without the other. By your own descriptions, it sounds like you have a short window of patience for all of the "problem" behaviors which people would theoretically be looking to you to help them solve. I don't want to discourage you from researching and improving understanding of dog behavior, but it just seems that you have more of a clinical and cold approach to the whole theory of training versus one that is driven by a simple love of dogs. And... I'm not sure if that's something that can be overcome.

I would agree with all of the advice here, but mostly to get some hands-on experience and get a dog of your own. Even if it means moving... if this is a career path that you are truly serious about, then sacrifices will have to be made in order to give you the best opportunities to achieve your goals. There's a lot to learn from books and classes, but nothing can substitute practical real-world experience, and that means practicing on your own dog before someone else's.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm cold and analytical in my approach to most things. I like animals, though, and I think I ultimately want a career working with them, preferably at a wildlife sanctuary or something. I'm assuming dog training would be a good prerequisite step. If it's not, I would like to be pointed in the right direction. I would ultimately like to work training service animals or conditioning zoo animals to show to the public; that would be a great career.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

If you want to be a "certified" dog trainer, all you have to do is become certified through one of the many programs out there.

If you want to be an effective dog trainer, you really need to train a bunch of dogs. Living with dogs is part of that. My dogs all have an "actively training self" and a "not actively training self." People need to be able to deal with both mindsets and they are really different.

When actively training, it isn't important to think about exercise, management, enrichment, nutrition... When living with a dog, these things become critical. These issues are critical to the owners you'll be working with.

I would live in my van with my dogs before I would live in a petless mansion. In college, I lived in some really terrible places in order to keep my dog. I can't imagine spending one minute or one dollar to train with someone who wasn't equally passionate about dogs. Dog training has some real challenges to it. Without a strong passion for dogs, I can't imagine how one could stand to do it. Given the language aspiringdogtrainer is using to convey his/her dog experience, it's very hard for me to imagine that this is a "best choice" for a career path. I would suggest getting into the world of dogs as a participant before trying to be a professional.

I am a mentor trainer for one of the on-line dog training programs. I am frequently very surprised when my students come to me for their final stages of the program. Some of the students have dogs who are struggling to be pets. Their dogs don't have even the most basic skills. I am very confused how to help these people get ready to teach when they haven't even learned how to be effective students. I am a really big fan of trainers who have come up through the ranks. There is so much to be learned from walking into a class with an out of control dog and coming out the other side with a great dog/handler relationship. The certification programs have value, but to my mind, they have to be supported by hands-on experience. They should be a compliment to the handler's real-life skills, not a substitute for them.

I have really strong opinions about who should be trainers. If a trainer fails, some owners will use that as a justification to give up on a dog. I have heard so many people say, "I tried everything. I even went to a trainer! He was just a bad dog." The dog ends up being put down or rehomed or hit by a car and the owner feels okay about it because they even tried a "trainer." I want the "trainer" to be really good at their job for the sake of the dog.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

From the OP's post it does not sound like she (he?) even particularly loves dogs and certainly needs experience with raising and training a puppy to learn how a dog's mind works. If properly trained, there is no reason whatsoever for them to turn out like the few dogs she had as a kid. It would be like me walking into a classroom full of kids and teaching them, never having or being around any, only in some ways that would be easier then what she is trying to do with dog training because you can talk to kids.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Plus we all used to be kids, and knew other kids, and kids are humans like all of us. . .so it's really different with kids vs dogs. 

Many wild animal programs (Sea World is the most obvious example) won't hire anyone who has ANY professional training experience at all, even teaching a class at 4H or something, because they want their trainers to be blank slates for the methods they'll teach them. So if working with wild animals is your end goal, you should find out what the preferred career path for that is before you try anything in the interim.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Why is this all so complicated? Why isn't there one route to certification, like with teaching, there's a nationally recognized standard, and all teachers who have gone through training are assumed to be education experts. Why can't that happen with animal training? I want to become a wildlife handler, and I thought dog training made sense as a place to start, because dog training is animal behavior psychology in action, but if there's no standard, it doesn't seem like a great place to start. No, teachers don't have to be parents to teach kids. I'm happy about that, actually. Raising a kid is exponentially more difficult than teaching one. For one, the teacher can go home at the end of the day.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Why is this all so complicated? Why isn't there one route to certification, like with teaching, there's a nationally recognized standard, and all teachers who have gone through training are assumed to be education experts. Why can't that happen with animal training? I want to become a wildlife handler, and I thought dog training made sense as a place to start, because dog training is animal behavior psychology in action, but if there's no standard, it doesn't seem like a great place to start. No, teachers don't have to be parents to teach kids. I'm happy about that, actually. Raising a kid is exponentially more difficult than teaching one. For one, the teacher can go home at the end of the day.


It's complicated. But mainly it's because there isn't any kind of universally agreed upon standard for dog training for which to use. Additionally, that would involve governmental involvement and regulation, which many dog owners are against, and of course tax dollars being spent.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

One of the community colleges near me has a wild life training program and graduates go on to work with zoos and such. Moorpark College in Moorpark California. They have a list of other programs out there. They do want applicants to have animal experience and list some ideas on what to look for. 

Nobody agrees on how to train dogs. Nobody agrees on how to raise a child. Many roads to the end result. Teachers aren't certified by the United Nations, each state here in the US has their own standard and test.

Since you don't have a dog then I suggest learning how to train any animal you can get, hissing cockroach, betta fish, hamster and volunteering at the shelter. Even doing grunt work will help you learn about animals as you are just around them more. Since you haven't good background in being patient with the annoying behaviors of dogs then you might want to work with an animal less likely to push your buttons so you can learn to train and not get overwhelmed and give up or react badly when the animal doesn't do as you like. Bob Bailey worked with chickens. Since you are analytical perhaps start with something more basic than a dog. Here is one of 55 million hits on Google on his work.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I relate to this thread in a lot of ways. I grew up in a cat family, with minimal exposure to dogs from friends and relatives we didn't see often. I knew very, very little about dogs until well into college, and actually started reading about them because of my interest in rat training and behavior. Then I fell down the rabbit hole of information and haven't come out yet. I, too, like there to be a really clear, linear path to a goal that's nicely structured and doesn't require a lot of self-promotion and putting myself out there.

But the truth is? This is all really, really good advice you've been getting. I devoured information about dogs from forums and books for literal years before getting one of my own, and I still made mistakes and struggled and set my training back in a lot of relatively 'rookie' ways. Did I ruin my dog? No, and the reading helped me a ton in figuring out where I'd made my mistakes and what steps I needed to take to fix them, but I now firmly believe that no book or course that doesn't require you to work with animals first-hand can really prepare you. Again, doesn't have to be your own animal, volunteering with shelters is a great way to start. I'm actually glad that there's no national standard, even though it makes my dream of working with animals harder, because there are so many methods and theories and divisive issues in dog behavior and training that I want the freedom to pick and choose a trainer that's right for my dog and my goals, not have to rely on a 'one size fits all' approach. 

A few things I wanted to add. It's okay that you don't know a lot about dogs or how they think right now, you can change that. Read, read, read. As you read, consider your sources. Forums are _amazing_ sources of information, but you have to be prepared to think REALLY critically about everything you read on them, because anyone can post here. It's a good idea to start with a well-respected intro to dog behavior and training from a reputable source, so you have a bit of scientific understanding to judge "does what this person is saying make sense?" The Other End of the Leash is always a good read, written by a dog behaviorist, and Brian Hare (a very well respected researcher who focuses on how dogs learn and think) has a free Dog Emotion and Cognition course on Coursera. Consider your sources - a TV personality with a dog training book probably isn't as reliable as a veterinary behaviorist or someone who professionally trains service dogs, for example. Go in with an open mind. There's issues and techniques I've completely changed my stance on since I started researching, because the longer I do it, the more I'm exposed to situations and scenarios I'd never considered.

Ask yourself whether you want to train _people,_ because that's mostly what you'll be doing. It's one of the things that makes dog training significantly different from working with non-domestic animals. Most dog training is about showing owners what to do and how to do it, not working directly with their dogs. You'll also likely face some really awful situations, from people using brutal techniques ("I know the shock collar training works because she pees herself when we press the button" is an actual thing I heard during my short stint working at a pet store, and I wasn't even the trainer!) to having to tell a family that you can't help them with their beloved family pet, they need a behaviorist that specializes in aggression or to consider euthanasia. 

If your final goal is actually working with wildlife or zoo animals, change your approach. Going into it from dog training isn't super helpful, because domestic and wild animals need to be handled so differently, and most places will want to see a different kind of experience. If you want to go the school route, look into animal behavior, management, or welfare programs, or even a degree in learning theory or psychology (though you may have some of that from your current work?) - they'll be more broadly applicable to a lot of different kinds of animal jobs than dog training alone. But the big thing is getting in the door, and that requires self-promotion, which I frankly suck at. Find wildlife rehab centers, sanctuaries, or similar organizations. Ask about volunteer opportunities. Don't e-mail, call. Or better, go there in person. It's a lot harder to say no when they're looking at you. If they don't have anything for you, ask if there's programs or other volunteer work in your area that might make you more attractive to them as a volunteer or employee. If you do get in, accept that you'll start doing a lot of grunt work, cleaning and hauling, and might not even get to see the animals much at first. Ask questions, learn how and why they do things the way they do, work hard, and _that_ will be what a lot of animal handler jobs like to see. Also keep in mind that even wildlife handlers and trainers spend very little of their day actually interacting with the animals - a lot of the job is, again, grunt work and doing things like planning enrichment, inspecting enclosures, etc. 

I'm not a trainer or work with animals professionally at this time, though I'm interested in a lot of the same things it seems you are. I'm still very early in this process myself due to complicated life things happening, but I have done a lot of research about how to get into these fields, from people actually working in them, and yeah. It's a rough, messy process that requires being willing to dig in and get the experience from ground zero. I hope something in here helps.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> I have to wonder at the underlying reasons for your desire to be a dog trainer. I've been looking for trainers for the last several months, and I can say with certainty that I would never consider a trainer that didn't HAVE a dog, or didn't have a history of owning AND training dogs (either by showing, working, or breeding). And to be a GREAT trainer, you'd need experience in all life stages of development so... puppies.
> 
> It sounds like you are drawn to training for the mental challenge most of all - for figuring out what makes them tick. It's an analytical approach, but seems to be lacking in heart. The way you're talking about dogs in general doesn't really come across as someone who LOVES dogs, which I feel is a key element in a successful trainer. I appreciate that you are acknowledging where your lack of experience exists and you're looking for ways to learn how to improve your knowledge base. But knowledge and experience go hand-in-hand; you simply can't have one without the other. By your own descriptions, it sounds like you have a short window of patience for all of the "problem" behaviors which people would theoretically be looking to you to help them solve. I don't want to discourage you from researching and improving understanding of dog behavior, but it just seems that you have more of a clinical and cold approach to the whole theory of training versus one that is driven by a simple love of dogs. And... I'm not sure if that's something that can be overcome.
> 
> I would agree with all of the advice here, but mostly to get some hands-on experience and get a dog of your own. Even if it means moving... if this is a career path that you are truly serious about, then sacrifices will have to be made in order to give you the best opportunities to achieve your goals. There's a lot to learn from books and classes, but nothing can substitute practical real-world experience, and that means practicing on your own dog before someone else's.


Yeppity yep! ^^^

I am also aspiring dog trainer (just graduated and received my certification) from ABC, it wasnt my first choice I'll admit, but for me in my situation, it was the most affordable. I hope to do Denise Fenzi's programs next, as soon as I build up some revenue again. I am never going to stop in my quest for knowledge.

It is VERY hard to be a dog trainer without your own dog to show for it, my dogs are like my business card, they show my skills, and what I am capable of, and capable of teaching others (at least that's how I see it). Plus like others have said, it gives me relatability with my prospective clients. Plus, if you can't train your own (and honestly, sorry to be blunt, but from what I have been reading, it doesnt look like you can), prospective clients are going to be thinking "than how can she expect to train mine?" I dont know of a trainer who doesnt use their own dogs as "selling points" for their skills, most all of the trainers I have taken classes with bring at least one demo dog with them so "show their stuff".



aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I'm cold and analytical in my approach to most things. I like animals, though, and I think I ultimately want a career working with them, preferably at a wildlife sanctuary or something. I'm assuming dog training would be a good prerequisite step. If it's not, I would like to be pointed in the right direction. I would ultimately like to work training service animals or conditioning zoo animals to show to the public; that would be a great career.


Based on this statement right here, I dont think dog training is for you, I am sorry to say. When you're working with animals (and their people!), you can't be cold and analytical.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I also acknowledge that I have a history of failing with dogs. I started keeping dogs when I was a young teenager, but it always fell into the same pattern. I raise a cute little puppy. It turns into a dog. *The dog develops lots of really bad habits and refuses to really break those habits.* I lose interest in the dog.


If you truly want to be come an animal trainer, you need to stop ascribing your the failures to the animal. If the animal is not learning, it is either because there is stress present (from the environment or elsewhere) or because sufficient motivation is not present. Providing both of those things - an environment conducive to learning and something that the dog views sufficiently motivating - are the responsibility of the trainer, not the dog. To be a good trainer, you need to be able to look at a situation critically, identify things that might be preventing the dog from learning, and then come up with solutions (sometimes creative ones) to alleviate those problems. A really good demonstration of that is provided in the book "A Dog Named Boo" by Lisa Edwards, who is herself a fairly renowned dog trainer.



> I'm cold and analytical in my approach to most things. I like animals, though, and I think I ultimately want a career working with them, preferably at a wildlife sanctuary or something. I'm assuming dog training would be a good prerequisite step. If it's not, I would like to be pointed in the right direction. I would ultimately like to work training service animals or conditioning zoo animals to show to the public; that would be a great career.


Most of the people I know working in wildlife rehab/conservation/zoos all have university degrees in a directly related field. I think you'll find it very hard to use dog training as a path into that kind of career; certainly if you do, you'll need to be among the best because I can guarantee that there are way more graduates looking for jobs in those fields than there are jobs, and that at least some of those graduates (and post-graduates) will also be animal trainers with impressive achievements under their belts, even if they're not certified training professionals. If that is truly the path you'd like to pursue, you're best bet is to contact some local wildlife rehab centers and zoos (or similar places) to ask what kinds of qualifications they require for those positions, and what paths people take to get there.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Out of curiosity, what is it about animal/dog training that appeals to you?


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I like getting things to do what I want them to do; that's communication and control. It's how people are supposed to function, but I sometimes find talking to people difficult. Dogs are easier to handle than kids, in some cases, and cats are easier to manage than adults. Plus, I just like being around animals. 

Anyway, I signed up for the first part of a dog trainer training program. It was a bit of money--about the cost of two online college courses, so I hope this wasn't a mistake. I plan to volunteer with the local animal shelter and network with established trainers, where possible, to make it worth the investment. I tried to practice due diligence and had them put me in touch with an established trainer who went through the program. Assuming they weren't being dishonest, it's supposed to be a pretty good program, and I'm hoping it's what I need.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I like getting things to do what I want them to do; that's communication and control. It's how people are supposed to function, *but I sometimes find talking to people difficult.* Dogs are easier to handle than kids, in some cases, and cats are easier to manage than adults. Plus, I just like being around animals.
> 
> Anyway, I signed up for the first part of a dog trainer training class. It was a bit of money--about the cost of two online college courses, so I hope this wasn't a mistake. I plan to volunteer with the local animal shelter and network with established trainers, where possible, to make it worth the investment.


Something to keep in mind is that the bulk of dog training is actually working with people. You're working with people to teach them to work with their dogs. I offer day training (where I would go to the house and train the dog while the people aren't home), but so far 100% of my clients have wanted the face-to-face option. 

I do like certifications, myself. I am looking forward to having that piece of paper and adding some initials after my name. But there are plenty of awesome trainers who wouldn't technically be considered "certified". The trainer I worked with for Annabel's initial training was excellent and her background is teaching (people).


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I like getting things to do what I want them to do; that's communication and control. It's how people are supposed to function, but I sometimes find talking to people difficult. Dogs are easier to handle than kids, in some cases, and cats are easier to manage than adults. Plus, I just like being around animals.



Oh boy, you're going to find dog training as a professional very, very frustrating and difficult. 

First, dogs aren't really "things" so much as independently thinking living creatures who have personalities, minds and opinions of their own. It isn't about control, it is about mutual trust and give/take and agreement. Like, you make it worth the dog's while to cooperate, the dog finds that good things come to him, you work as partners. 

If talking to people is difficult, being a dog trainer for the public is going to be an uphill battle. As others have said quite well, it is in large portion about teaching the humans how to train their dogs rather than training the dogs directly. Communication to people is key.

I think you are wildly missing the concept of how dogs work and how humans work with dogs. Personally at least, if I asked about a dog trainer and someone forwarded me this thread and said "This is the dog trainer you are asking about", I'd head the other way in a heartbeat. It just seems there is a lack of draw, of compassion, of interest in dogs and dog training for itself and not as a stepping stone, a lack of patience and willingness to do the research it takes to find potential options for the more difficult cases. I am of course only going by what you write so I could be missing a lot of information, but as it stands, it just seems like a bad fit for you.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I've been sort of uncomfortable with your motivations from the start - it seems as though you don't like dogs, and you don't like people, so why would you want to be in a profession in which you have to deal with troublesome dogs and troublesome adults every day? 

But this statement pushed it right over the edge for me:



aspiringdogtrainer said:


> *I like getting things to do what I want them to do; that's communication and control.* It's how people are supposed to function, but I sometimes find talking to people difficult. Dogs are easier to handle than kids, in some cases, and cats are easier to manage than adults. Plus, I just like being around animals.


Getting _things_ (let's not even address the fact that you're talking about living and breathing animals and people as things), to do what you want them to do is not about communication. It's about control, pure and simple. It sounds like you want a living thing to do what you say to do when you say to do it because you get joy out of being in control, being obeyed and being in power. 

That's not at all what dog training is about. My dogs and I are a team. We're friends. They're there for me when I need them, and I'm there for them when they need me. I don't ask them to do things just for giggles because I get off on weird power trips. And odds are, that's the type of relationship your clients would be looking for, too. Few people want to be domineering tyrants - most people want to be buddies with a fairly well-behaved canine companion. 

Everyone else has really sugarcoated this, but I'm not the sugarcoating type. Unless you are drastically misrepresenting yourself and your intentions, you shouldn't be in any field that involves working with animals if all you're concerned with is the analytical approach and being able to control them. That's not how animals OR people are supposed to function. If the only way you're comfortable interacting with other breathing things is if you're in control and they do what you want them to do, there's a way to handle that, and step number one is therapy.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

When you don't understand emotions, that's pretty much the only approach you CAN take, but I don't want to get into that at all. I will, however, point out that you're trying to make quite a few generalizations based on what I wrote on this forum, and I'm sorry, but I don't really understand why people do that. 

I try to be realistic and reasonable. I even describe friendships as relationships where both people use each other for mutual gains (that's not to say they're not loving relationships but both parties are in it because they are gaining something). It's not the way people normally describe things like that, but it's true. I'm not into sugar-coating things much either. I see no point in it; I prefer for people to be direct. The rest is a little frustrating. I care, but I show it quite differently. I'm not sure how well that translates.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Shell said:


> Oh boy, you're going to find dog training as a professional very, very frustrating and difficult.
> 
> First, dogs aren't really "things" so much as independently thinking living creatures who have personalities, minds and opinions of their own. It isn't about control, it is about mutual trust and give/take and agreement. Like, you make it worth the dog's while to cooperate, the dog finds that good things come to him, you work as partners.
> 
> ...


Right now, it is, but I'm assuming that's not because there's some fundamental flaw in how I view the world (although that might be the case) but rather an issue of current knowledge and training. I get along pretty well with other animals. To be honest, dogs are the only ones I've struggled with, and I guess it's because I just don't understand their nature, what drives and motivates them. My expectations are frequently different than what they give me. I would like to explore that a little bit and hopefully break it down for myself (and later for my clients). I am a teacher, even though I don't consider myself very good with people (and, yes, I think animals are, mostly, easier to communicate with, but dogs and horses are just too human-like in all of the wrong ways. I'm guessing I would hate working with monkeys, too, at least without sufficient training.)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm a dog sports person. Like, seriously, this weekend I have Agility on Saturday, Lure Coursing on Sunday, and Flyball on Monday. I've done seminars and classes and worked in other sports (Disc, Treibball, Rally). I'm only seriously involved in agility, one of my sports dogs is pretty young and just starting, the other's a little more experienced. Agility in particular involves a lot of behavior and cues and commands, over a fairly long period of time, with complicated actions. It's basically a really long behavioral chain, at speed. 

This is what I can tell you: 

Dogs aren't computers. There's nothing wrong with an analytical approach to dog training, but literally every dog you meet is going to be different. There is no 'if then' with dogs. Their motivation is mostly 'what works for them' and what that means varies with every dog. They all have quirks, phobias, fears, likes, dislikes, and things that they consider aversive or rewarding. It is different with literally every single dog. The first job of any dog trainer, when meeting a client dog, is to figure out how to communicate with that, specific, individual dog for that, specific, individual scenario. It changes, at least a little, every time. 

There IS learning theory at play - conditioned response to a marker meaning something pleasant is coming, used to mark behavior you want - but what is pleasant? Does that dog learn better via luring, shaping, or capturing? Does that dog work best for tug, ball, disc, or food (and if food, what kind of food - which food or toy makes the dog work, but doesn't make it lose it's mind? How high value do you have to go to leverage against environmental stressors)? Does that dog have an innate desire to please the owner? Or is it more environmentally driven? Or independent? What is the RELATIONSHIP between the owner and dog like? What environment are you in? Which things n that environment are reassuring, stimulating, distracting, or worrying for the dog? Every answer to every one of those questions changes for every single dog you meet.

I can put every last one of my 5 dogs in the same room, one at a time, do the exact same thing with each, with the exact same reinforcer and try to teach them the same thing - and my level of success or lack of with every last one of them will be different. 

The thing you need to learn most is to understand and read dogs. You want to learn to train them to do that, and it absolutely can help, but you have to be able to get into their heads TO train them (is this dog, hyper, stressed, aggressive, scared, worried, overstimulated, just distracted? Is it tuned in and calm or shut down? What can I do about those states?). And then pull on the 'in the head' thing, previous experience and theoretical knowledge to be able to teach them. 


And then there are all the factors with people.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> When you don't understand emotions, that's pretty much the only approach you CAN take, but I don't want to get into that at all.
> 
> I even describe friendships as relationships where both people use each other for mutual gains. It's not the way people normally describe things like that, but it's true. I'm not into sugar-coating things much either. I see no point in it; I prefer for people to be direct. The rest is a little frustrating. I care, but I show it quite differently. I'm not sure how well that translates.


So, just being real, you're beginning to sound vaguely sociopathic. Which is fine, pursue therapy if you choose, or don't if you don't want to. 

Either way, the way you see the world and the way you approach human/human and human/animal relationships is NOT conducive to being a dog trainer. Dog trainers need to truly care about their clients, both human and dog, to get through the day. You have to have real passion to deal with your hundredth puppy who mouths a bit too much, or your thousandth adolescent dog who won't walk well on a leash. You have to want to help people, to make their lives better, and to help dogs, and make their lives better, too.

You seem to be approaching this like some sort of personal science experiment. "I haven't ever really gotten dogs, and I've failed at training them in the past, so I'm going to challenge myself and get into this profession to figure out what I've done wrong before and to see if I can figure out how their brains work." And that's just not going to fly in this world. If a bunch of internet strangers can detect your detachment, dispassionate approach and disinclination to actually help owners or their dogs in just a few posts, what do you think people who interact with you on a daily basis will see? There's no way to hide that level of detachment.

I think you should find another career path that you think is challenging and engaging without potentially putting the lives of dogs at risk, because that's what you'll be doing every single time you fail as a trainer, and fail you will if you are truly this ambivalent about it. It will save you money and time in the long run to realize that this isn't the career path for you as expeditiously as possible so that you can begin to explore other potential careers instead.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Okay. I would first read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson (though I'll admit, I'm one of her groupies - my certification is coming from her Academy). Also, The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. I also like McConnell's For the Love of a Dog. Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog is always recommended. You might also find some of Temple Grandin's books interesting. They're not exactly dog-related, but animal behavior is a fascinating field and critical if you want to train animals.

You might also have to come to terms with the fact that dog training isn't for you. It is can be insanely frustrating and you really have to LOVE working with dogs and with people. And accounting/marketing/etc to a degree if you want to actually have a business at it.

Working with dogs - any animal really - should be about developing a partnership. Learning to communicate with each other. To communicate with a different species and teach them our rules. They aren't born knowing where they should poop or what not to eat and, frankly, when it comes down to it a majority of the behaviors we consider "bad" in dogs are normal and natural for them. (Digging, barking, scavenging through the trash for food and so on) It takes patience and repetition to train the dog and it takes even MORE patience and repetition to train the owner


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> So, just being real, you're beginning to sound vaguely sociopathic. Which is fine, pursue therapy if you choose, or don't if you don't want to.


Honestly sounds mostly autistic (somewhere on the spectrum), which is way less (read not at all) scary. I would still not suggest dog training as a career, but I don't think this person is sociopathic/scary so much as barking up the wrong tree and likely to make themselves (and dogs if they get that far) miserable. Themselves definitely, dogs probably, depending on how well they solve the 'puzzle'.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

This might be a little off-topic, but what was my dog using? I once had a dog that would, like, literally mimic me to learn new commands, no reinforcers (that I know of) whatsoever. It was like that dog was reading my mind, super smart. It got into a lot of trouble, but it was like a genius, mostly because I didn't understand how it was learning things so quickly.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> This might be a little off-topic, but what was my dog using? I once had a dog that would, like, literally mimic me to learn new commands, no reinforcers (that I know of) whatsoever. It was like that dog was reading my mind, super smart. It got into a lot of trouble, but it was like a genius, mostly because I didn't understand how it was learning things so quickly.


Give me a little more information here. What sort of things did it learn to do?


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

you hit the nail on the head with guessing "on the spectrum," but I do NOT want to go into that...I'm trying (maybe subconsciously) to work my way out of it, to get people not to notice and to stop treating me so differently (now, no more on that, please.)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> you hit the nail on the head, but I do NOT want to go into that...


I didn't think you did, and I don't think it's appropriate to bring it up, but I didn't want to let sociopathic stand either. You're fine, and it's okay (and I WILL report to mods if it goes any further down that road, I promise)


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Honestly sounds mostly autistic (somewhere on the spectrum), which is way less scary. I would still not suggest dog training as a career, but I don't think this person is sociopathic/scary so much as barking up the wrong tree and likely to make themselves (and dogs if they get that far) miserable. Themselves definitely, dogs probably, depending on how well they solve the 'puzzle'.


Yeah, it was an offhand comment, I think real life sociopaths are pretty rare. Suggesting someone may be slightly sociopathic, for some reason, seems far more PC than suggesting someone may be on the autism spectrum, though. Probably because the likelihood of one is very low and the other is much higher.

ETA: Having read the rest of the thread now, no more comments on that aspect of this from me, either.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

CptJack said:


> Give me a little more information here. What sort of things did it learn to do?


I didn't work with it much, but, lets see. It taught itself to climb a really tall ladder to get to me and my dad. I'm pretty sure most other dogs would have just sat and stared. It taught itself to crawl to me. If I'm not mistaken, it literally saw me get on my belly and just decided to do what I did. I've never had a dog that smart. I didn't know what I was doing with him, but that dog was just amazing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Hiraeth said:


> Yeah, it was an offhand comment, I think real life sociopaths are pretty rare. Suggesting someone may be slightly sociopathic, for some reason, seems far more PC than suggesting someone may be on the autism spectrum, though. Probably because the likelihood of one is very low and the other is much higher.


I am going to respect the posters wishes, but I'm going to send you a PM. Not to yell at you but to explain why I said something.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I didn't work with it much, but, lets see. It taught itself to climb a really tall ladder to get to me and my dad. I'm pretty sure most other dogs would have just sat and stared. It taught itself to crawl to me. If I'm not mistaken, it literally saw me get on my belly and just decided to do what I did. I've never had a dog that smart. I didn't know what I was doing with him, but that dog was just amazing.


A lot of dogs are really, really fantastic problem solvers and can do a lot of things to gt what they want - and sometimes that's just their people/attention. The ladder climbing thing is probably a strong desire to be with you and figuring out how. The crawling is actually something some dogs do naturally, but if it got any kind of reaction it would have kept going because ATTENTION!!! Basically really does sound like an amazingly smart dog who liked to problem solve and REALLY liked his people.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I would say Autism is more common than sociopathy. I haven't met too many sociopaths in my lifetime. The ones who I would guess were really that way had other underlying issues, like severe drug addiction and manic depression. The odd thing, though? Everyone thought they were normal and trustworthy. That's another really weird thing people do. Rather than measuring something based on personal experience and information they've actually gathered, they have a tendency to make these wild guesses. Sorry, I'm not trying to say anything out of line, but that's extreme generalizing (something that seems irrational to me, but perfectly logical for most people.) See? That's one reason why I claim not to have a good grasp on reading emotions. (that's really enough of that, though. I apologize for bringing it up again, but apparently I'm fairly out of touch with how other people think and perceive things.)

Yeah, dog training's a poor fit, but so is just about everything else I've aspired to, so why not?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I didn't work with it much, but, lets see. It taught itself to climb a really tall ladder to get to me and my dad. I'm pretty sure most other dogs would have just sat and stared. It taught itself to crawl to me. If I'm not mistaken, it literally saw me get on my belly and just decided to do what I did. I've never had a dog that smart. I didn't know what I was doing with him, but that dog was just amazing.


Some dogs simply have incredible critical thinking skills and are true puzzle solvers. It's not even breed-dependent, necessarily, though some breeds tend to be better critical thinkers than others. Just like there are certain people who are born higher and lower on the IQ scale, there are dogs who are born very high on whatever the dog IQ scale might measure. 

A dog teaching itself to climb a ladder is rare, but not unheard of. There are quite a few members on this board with incredibly intelligent dogs who pull off hi-jinks frequently.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I haven't met too many sociopaths in my lifetime. That's another really weird thing people do. Rather than measuring something based on personal experience and information they've actually gathered, they have a tendency to make these wild guesses. Sorry, I'm not trying to say anything out of line, but that's extreme generalizing (something that seems irrational to me, but perfectly logical for most people.) See? That's one reason why I claim not to have a good grasp on reading emotions. (that's really enough of that, though. I apologize for bringing it up again, but apparently I'm fairly out of touch with how other people think and perceive things.


Okay, so serious advice here:

Spend time with dogs. I think, ultimately, you'll find they're easier than people. I don't necessarily think you'll find training them something you want to do, because it is wildly variable and individual and the people component is hard, but I think maybe if you figure out a dog or three you'll be in a better place to assess what you actually do want to do. Definitely read some books about the theoy, you'll likely find it interesting if nothing else. Then you'll be able to branch out, or not, once you've got more info.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I agree with you. I kind of want to be a cat trainer (we have a surprising amount in common), but, to my knowledge, there's no certification for that. You can take "dog training" which is applied animal behavior psychology, though, and you can apply bits and pieces to whatever animals you work with in the future (or at least that's what I think.)

Yeah, I also want to work at a zoo handling the big kitties, but I'm just not where I can do that right now.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I agree with you. I kind of want to be a cat trainer (we have a surprising amount in common), but, to my knowledge, there's no certification for that. You can take "dog training" which is applied animal behavior psychology, though, and you can apply bits and pieces to whatever animals you work with in the future (or at least that's what I think.)
> 
> Yeah, I also want to work at a zoo with the big kitties, but I'm just not where I can do that right now.


Yep. A lot of the basic learning theory is the same. Look at clicker training. That's pretty across the board applicable to all animals and basically means that a sound precludes a treat/reward coming and that animals will all continue to do what works for getting them what they want. There are some amazingly trained cats around, youtube has a ton of cool videos, and those are all taught with a clicker and food. 

But yeah, the learning theory crosses species.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Yeah, dog training's a poor fit, but so is just about everything else I've aspired to, so why not?


What else have you aspired to? 

Not to bring it up against your wishes, but now that we know a little about where you're coming from and what's behind some of your comments, it's much easier to communicate with you about where you want to take this and what you want to do moving forward.

I think that maybe a career working with animals, but with less of an emphasis on working with people, might make you far happier in the long run. So what are those careers and how can you get there? Are there any wildlife rehab facilities you can volunteer at in your area? Any small animal rescues? Perhaps you'd be better off taking courses about wildlife behavior, biology, etc., as opposed to classes about dog training if that's where you want to go with your career?

Honestly, dog training isn't a great career path for most people who love dogs. I thought about it for a while but realized that I neither have the patience or people skills to deal with humans who don't know how to handle a puppy who mouths, or who can't figure out how to potty train a dog. I would snap in about two and a half days of being in that type of environment.

So if animal behavior is the thing that you find exciting and interesting, figure out a career that allows you to pursue that! Dog training is really 95% training people and 5% training dogs, so maybe there's something that's 95% training animals and 5% dealing with people?

ETA: If you want to work with cats, definitely contact your local shelters. They are *always* in need of someone who will interact with their cats. Could you adopt a cat where you live now, or is there a strict no-pet policy?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also, seriously, go for the big cats in a zoo thing. Figure out what it takes, work with learning theory and clickers and house cats (or dogs or both), maybe in a shelter, and go for it. Trust me, there's nothing stopping you doing what you actually want. Don't 'settle'. 

(For the record? I'd be a shit professional trainer, too, though I've also thought hard about taking the classes just to increase my own learning. I'm just not capable of training people and I need more time with a dog than a half hour or hour a week to 'get into their heads' to teach them.)


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Learning about clicker training would probably actually be very helpful in the pursuit of training the big cats. Last time I was at our local zoo, I was chatting with one of the keepers who was working with some warty pigs. He was using clicker training to train them to get up on the scale they have for them. Anyway, he mentioned to me that he had just started with the pigs, but that he had also worked with some primates and one of the species of big cat (the tigers, I think) - all with clicker training. I THINK that at least my local zoo requires a degree in something like zoology, though.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I would say Autism is more common than sociopathy. I haven't met too many sociopaths in my lifetime. The ones who I would guess were really that way had other underlying issues, like severe drug addiction and manic depression. The odd thing, though? Everyone thought they were normal and trustworthy. That's another really weird thing people do. Rather than measuring something based on personal experience and information they've actually gathered, they have a tendency to make these wild guesses. Sorry, I'm not trying to say anything out of line, but that's extreme generalizing (something that seems irrational to me, but perfectly logical for most people.) See? That's one reason why I claim not to have a good grasp on reading emotions. (that's really enough of that, though. I apologize for bringing it up again, but apparently I'm fairly out of touch with how other people think and perceive things.)
> 
> Yeah, dog training's a poor fit, but so is just about everything else I've aspired to, so why not?


I won't even begin to touch the idea of sociopath as that is an extreme that just isn't likely. 

Basically, what I am reading of your posts is that you want to work with animals. Not with people, not with average dog or cat owners, not with the person that says "my dog is peeing indoors, help me" or " My dog tugs on the leash" and definitely not with the person who has a dog-aggressive dog or a fearful dog that needs months of work. 

If you feel a connection to working with animals, especially wild animals, that would be where to head towards. The skills overlap but are also really different. For a mild example-- I have trained wild mustang horses from BLM roundups. They are horses yes, and respond to the same basic ideas as any other horse, but even that slight difference of a feral or "wild" horse versus one born to a normally owned horse and raised in a barn or field is surprisingly different. And even that is orders of magnitude less than the difference of working with say, house cats vs panthers.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I can't say anything about panthers, but I've met very few cats I couldn't get along with, feral or domestic--in fact, feral kittens can be easily re-domesticated. I'm imagining it would be a similar situation only on a much larger scale. 


Maybe this is just a silly suggestion, but I kind of wonder why they don't encourage big cats to be kept as pets (with a wildlife permit and proper enclosures, of course). I mean, it seems like their numbers would increase if they were bred in captivity ,especially if we produced more resilient hybrids (who knows? with selective breeding, we might even end up with something like a dog, only in cat form). I guess it could be dangerous, but I mean, dogs come in all sizes and no one complains about that. Around here, people even keep wolf puppies and wolf hybrids; those are wild animals raised in captivity as domestic pets, and no one has made a big deal of that (although I'm told that wolf dogs will destroy pretty much any enclosure you try to put them in). 

Of course, some wild cats probably don't breed well in captivity, but I'm not sure that's always the case, and I'm kind of unhappy tigers and lions may not be around in the next fifty or sixty years. I'm sorry, but no great dane or malamute is going to be able to replace that. Maybe if someone figured out how to give them a friendlier face there would be fewer people killing them. I guess it's a strange suggestion, but someone, at one point in time (a long time ago) did it to the wolf. I think we're taking the wrong approach to protecting certain critically endangered forms of wildlife. A long time ago, man figured out how to work with nature, not just protect himself from it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Haha, well this is wildly off-topic. But anyway, lots of people in the US do keep wild cats in captivity---the Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that more than 20,000 big cats are privately owned in the US. I personally know of a guy with an African lion (wildlife keeping laws here are somewhat lax and permits aren't hard to get, if you don't live in town). The problem with that, in terms of wildlife management, is that once a big cat is in captivity, it no longer fills the niche it was meant to fill. That big cat is no longer wild, and it's highly unlikely its offspring could be successfully introduced to the wild. So as far as wildlife management goes, a big cat in captivity is basically dead. Yes, they may still exist, yes, the numbers may increase, but they will never be wild again so it's pointless. That goes doubly for hybrids---they will never be successful in the wild, or at least not in their intended habitat. If they were viable for that wild niche, they would have developed naturally.

As for whether keeping them in captivity making people less likely to kill them, sadly no. Many, many former pets and even zoo cats get sold to canned hunt businesses. It seems that a lot of Americans don't have much trouble killing a pet lion/tiger as long as they get a cool taxidermy mount out of it :/. 

And the main reason that keeping a 400-pound cat is a bad idea is because it's a 400-pound cat . I can think of a lot of things my pet cats do that would be insanely dangerous if they weighed 400 pounds, lol. I have one little tabby who jumps on my shoulder when I don't expect it. But she weighs 6 pounds. Etc. It also costs several hundred dollars a month to keep them well-fed (meat is expensive!) so a lot end up being underfed or starved, and a proper enclosure is also very expensive so many live in deplorable conditions. It's just not something that ought to be encouraged.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I never think it's a good idea to keep anything that you are on their food chain....


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

One of the reasons I suggested reading as a first step is, at least for me, learning the science behind behavior was a really great way to gauge "am I interested in this? Do I want to continue down this path?" I felt that if I read the theory and found it boring, hard to follow, or unengaging, I probably wasn't cut out for working with dogs.

I agree with the others. You want to work with cats? Work with cats! Check out Jackson Galaxy if you haven't already - he has a TV show, but unlike Cesar Millan he actually is an animal behaviorist with a strong understanding of the science. Read up on what his background is, check out any resources he recommends for people interested in working with cats, volunteer with cats at a shelter, and move on from there.

Many, many big cats ARE clicker trained - so are wolves, orcas, birds of prey, even some crocodiles! It really does use basic learning theory that works with a lot of species. In fact, I believe many zoos and sanctuaries were using clicker training techniques long before it became popular with domestic animals. Another fun fact: humans have tried to domesticate cheetahs (the most 'dog-like' of the big cats) in the past, several times. Never been successful, though. We still don't understand everything about how domestication works, but it does seem that it's more possible in some species than others.

A few things: a good, certified zoo or sanctuary that follows the best animal handling and welfare protocols doesn't allow even the top trainers to have free-contact with most adult big cats (again, cheetahs are kind of an exception). It's dangerous for the people and dangerous for the animals. Breeding programs need to be really carefully monitored and supervised, especially in species that are endangered, to insure inbreeding isn't happening that can actually weaken the lines. Big cats need specially trained vets to stay healthy, a lot of space, and extremely specialized diet, regular enrichment, and species-appropriate exercise. These are all reasons why they should NOT be kept privately, as most private homes don't have the money or knowledge to provide these things. Also, sadly, many of the animals who are currently being kept privately are in poor health or have behavioral problems due to their owners not keeping them properly. That, and private ownership encourages poaching - people catch wild cubs to sell. It's a huge problem in any non-domesticated pet species. Many parrots you see really commonly as pets are super endangered in the wild, for example.

I follow a couple educational blogs about this stuff. Would you like me to PM you links? I could go all day, but I don't want to get too off-topic when it's a dog forum.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Those are all great suggestions. Since I already signed up for the dog training classes, I think I will take them and try to learn everything I can. Dogs aren't my favorite animal, I'll admit that, but everything's a learning experience, and I'll be getting sound behavior based training on working with animals anyway. I'm the kind of person who could sit and read for years and never put it into action, so a class that requires some hands-on interaction is probably the kind of thing I need as motivation to further explore the field.

Yeah, eventually I would like to become an animal behaviorist, like Jackson Galaxy (and I have no idea where to start there), but until then I guess I'll just get whatever certifications, training, and experience I can get.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Those are all great suggestions. Since I already signed up for the dog training classes, I think I will take them and try to learn everything I can. Dogs aren't my favorite animal, I'll admit that, but everything's a learning experience, and I'll be getting sound behavior based training on working with animals anyway. I'm the kind of person who could sit and read for years and never put it into action, so a class that requires some hands-on interaction is probably the kind of thing I need as motivation to further explore the field.
> 
> Yeah, eventually I would like to become an animal behaviorist, like Jackson Galaxy (and I have no idea where to start there), but until then I guess I'll just get whatever certifications, training, and experience I can get.


If I remember correctly, (I'm a Galaxy fan) he isn't actually a certified behaviourist of anything. He started out working at an animal shelter having no experience with animals whatsoever. Nor any aspiration to, he just needed a job.

I can't remember if he has since pursued any specific education/training in the area, but starting out at least he didn't have anything like that under his belt.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I didn't know that about Galaxy! I've seen him referred to as a 'behaviorist,' but you're right, his own website says he "has experience in the cat behavior world." My bad! Still, he bases his advice on a scientific understanding of animal behavior and most people 'in the know' seem to agree does a great job educating about force-free methods for helping cats be happier and easier to live with.

aspiringdogtrainer, I think working through the class is a great idea. Either way you'll get an idea of whether you want to continue in this work, and you'll have some more 'official' grounding in basic animal behavior and learning theory application.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, I tried to complete step one today. I filled out an application at my local animal shelter to work as a volunteer. My teacher also contacted me today and told me she was sending me the materials needed to start to course. She welcomed any questions I had. So far, this sounds like it's going to be a good experience.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, I tried to complete step one today. I filled out an application at my local animal shelter to work with their dogs as a volunteer. My teacher also contacted me today and told me she was sending me the materials needed to start the course. She welcomed any questions I had. So far, this sounds like it's going to be a good experience.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Well, I tried to complete step one today. I filled out an application at my local animal shelter to work with their dogs as a volunteer. My teacher also contacted me today and told me she was sending me the materials needed to start the course. She welcomed any questions I had. So far, this sounds like it's going to be a good experience.


Volunteering is a good first step. Plus, most municipal animal shelters often even up with animals other than dogs and cats. Small domestic pets like bunnies and guinea pigs, pet birds, snakes and sometimes even pot belly pigs or horses. At least here, the city shelter is required by law to take any domesticated/pet or farm animal that is stray or surrendered (no wild animals) so staff and volunteers can end up working with a variety of animals over time.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Shell said:


> Volunteering is a good first step. Plus, most municipal animal shelters often even up with animals other than dogs and cats. Small domestic pets like bunnies and guinea pigs, pet birds, snakes and sometimes even pot belly pigs or horses. At least here, the city shelter is required by law to take any domesticated/pet or farm animal that is stray or surrendered (no wild animals) so staff and volunteers can end up working with a variety of animals over time.


Same here, our shelter accepts any stray or surrendered animal of a domesticated species. For the most part, it is what you'd expect (birds, reptiles, rodents, cats, dogs), but this year we adopted out several pigs, and there was even a pygmy goat in the shelter temporarily!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

May I ask what trainer courses you are taking? You can PM me if you don't want to share publicly.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I used to train horses. Domesticated animal training is, in my experience, mostly about training the animal's owners/handlers. The human element cannot be ignored, avoided or sidestepped.



aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Why is this all so complicated? Why isn't there one route to certification, like with teaching, there's a nationally recognized standard


What country are you in? This is not the case in the US.



aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Yeah, dog training's a poor fit, but so is just about everything else I've aspired to, so why not?


Well, if a pottery is bad at making pottery, they just get bad pottery. If a copyeditor is bad at proofreading, you get typos. But if a trainer is bad at training dogs, you can get dead dogs and miserable owners. There are some careers where the potential fallout is much more serious and this is one of them.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

parus said:


> I used to train horses. Domesticated animal training is, in my experience, mostly about training the animal's owners/handlers. The human element cannot be ignored, avoided or sidestepped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If a teacher is bad at teaching, you get kids who hate school, but everyone has to start somewhere and learn their trade. I wasn't an excellent fit for the classroom when I first started out, but I gradually learned what I was doing and where I was going wrong, and I used what I learned to improve. Now, I feel like I could give a child a test, take a curriculum guide, and guide the child through every aspect of that course with a pretty decent success rate. I know what to look for in non-readers. I'm trained to help people learning English as a Second Language. I have collected a bank of resources to go to if the student is bad at learning math or reading. When I started, though, I didn't know all of these tricks of the trade. I learned them through asking questions, and I learned how to teach through trial and error. Honestly, I think a lot of jobs are mainly about just getting out there and getting your hands dirty. The training isn't worth as much as the experience, and, if I can convince young human beings who previously avoided school to actually enjoy it, I think I can handle almost anything.

Actually, I'm in the U.S. We don't have a nationally recognized standard? What's National Board Certification, then? Plus, at the state level, most states require successful completion of a teacher education program and successful marks on the Praxis exams. Yes, there are a number of privately recognized programs that report having even more success than our recognized standard, but you can't, to my knowledge, become a "highly qualified" educator without having at least taken the Praxis exams and earning a bachelor's degree covering human educational psychology, learning theories, and core knowledge. Most recognized programs require a lot more than that (like degree in field PLUS educator training), but the point is there is very little flexibility in what schools consider acceptable educator training. Rarely can you get some barely recognized online degree and become successful in the field. 

You certainly can't pay a few hundred bucks for a tutoring center to train you using their methods (although I highly recommend that young educators take this training anyway; sometimes you find the best teaching methods at private institutions) and market yourself as a state licensed teacher to parents or schools and expect them to hire you, yet I kind of feel like that's what can be done with dog training. Now, I don't think anyone really needs a bachelor's degree in animal behavior science or anything; in fact, I kind of wish the schools could teach us more in less time for less money and send teachers into the field with associate's degrees (the first two years is really just practice taking college courses anyway. They could cut away those intro courses and really target our training for an excellent targeted preparation program that might even help our teacher retention rates by exposing students early to the realities of teaching, rather than sugar coating things until close to the end.). I think it would be fair to do the same or something similar with dog training, or at least make it sort of like getting driver's license, require a written test and a "road test."

Meh, at least I bought into that idea (literally). The dog training program I'm enrolled in is a two-year program.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> If a teacher is bad at teaching, you get kids who hate school, but everyone has to start somewhere and learn their trade. I wasn't an excellent fit for the classroom when I first started out, but I gradually learned what I was doing and where I was going wrong, and I used what I learned to improve. Now, I feel like I could give a child a test, take a curriculum guide, and guide the child through every aspect of that course with a pretty decent success rate. I know what to look for in non-readers. I'm trained to help people learning English as a Second Language. I have collected a bank of resources to go to if the student is bad at learning math or reading. When I started, though, I didn't know all of these tricks of the trade. I learned them through asking questions, and I learned how to teach through trial and error. Honestly, I think a lot of jobs are mainly about just getting out there and getting your hands dirty. The training isn't worth as much as the experience, and, if I can convince young human beings who previously avoided school to actually enjoy it, I think I can handle almost anything.


Then why aren't you teaching, working in education more generally, or seeking a job in that field? Dog training isn't exactly a lucrative career by comparison.



> Actually, I'm in the U.S. We don't have a nationally recognized standard? What's National Board Certification, then?


Despite the name, it's not a certification that qualifies a teacher to work in US public schools, and the vast majority of US teachers don't hold NBTPS certification. It's basically a very intensive professional development run by a non-profit organization.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I am teaching! I just thought I would try this, too, to see how I like it.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Also, here's a follow-up. I put the word out locally that I was in dog training school, and people wanted me to help them train their dogs in basic obedience. My instructor said that it was okay if I practiced with shelter dogs, and this is just more unpaid experience away from the shelters. I am a little nervous, though. What if I blow it? I contacted my instructor but haven't heard anything from her yet. I told them in my ad that I wasn't experienced and I basically wanted practice reinforcing the dog's existing training or teaching very basic obedience. Worst case scenario is I blow it and have to go back to the drawing board. Best case scenario is I actually do teach the dogs a few new things and impress the people who want me to work with their dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Also, here's a follow-up. I put the word out locally that I was in dog training school, and people wanted me to help them train their dogs in basic obedience. My instructor said that it was okay if I practiced with shelter dogs, and this is just more unpaid experience away from the shelters. I am a little nervous, though. What if I blow it? I contacted my instructor but haven't heard anything from her yet. I told them in my ad that I wasn't experienced and I basically wanted practice reinforcing the dog's existing training or teaching very basic obedience. Worst case scenario is I blow it and have to go back to the drawing board. Best case scenario is I actually do teach the dogs a few new things and impress the people who want me to work with their dogs.


I would not at all suggest training other people's dogs at this point. Shelter dogs are one thing because there is a shelter supervisor and because they are often in need of any attention at all to help them cope in a shelter.

Worst case scenario is NOT that you "blow it and have to go back to the drawing board" 

Worst case scenario is as Canyx mentioned-- that you are not able to help the dog or the problem gets worse and the owners surrender the dog or put the dog down because well, they consulted a "trainer"....

You aren't really even IN dog training school to speak of. You have started the process of enrolling and gotten the course work. A far cry from say, someone 80% completed.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I would suggest not taking any paid work from actual clients until you have quite a bit more experience. Working with shelter dogs would be a great way to start.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

You might be right. I was pretty clear in my ad that if the dog had serious behavior issues, they should contact a seasoned trainer, not me, and I tried to stress the fact that I'm not a full dog trainer. I even mentioned that I'm only a beginner. Oh dear, well, I contacted my instructor about this, and she might tell me, like you have, that it's not really a good idea, and that is okay. I can just contact the people who wanted me to help and tell them that I'm not ready.

Plus, it's all unpaid. I wouldn't feel good about charging since I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing, yet.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

You are not a beginner. You are a pre-beginner, as you have not begun yet. It'd be seriously unethical to take on clients. Your clients, just by owning dogs, already would have more dog training experience than you do.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing, yet.


All that needs to be said at this point in time.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Even if it's unpaid, giving advice to people when you have almost no experience upon which to give advice is unethical.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

It sounds like you guys think this is a really bad idea, even though I tried not to misrepresent myself. My instructor will probably agree with you. I hope she isn't angry with me. I just thought that learning from dog owners would be a good first step to gaining more experience. I didn't represent myself as a trainer, again. I only represented myself as a beginning student trying to learn. My ad was pretty clear, but it sounds like it's STILL a bad idea...thanks for the warning.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> It sounds like you guys think this is a really bad idea, even though I tried not to misrepresent myself. My instructor will probably agree with you. I hope she isn't angry with me. I just thought that learning from dog owners would be a good first step to gaining more experience. I didn't represent myself as a trainer, again. I only represented myself as a beginning student trying to learn. My ad was pretty clear, but it sounds like it's STILL a bad idea...thanks for the warning.


Basically, what would you expect to learn from dog owners that are coming to you for training help? 

Did you offer to provide training advice?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> It sounds like you guys think this is a really bad idea, even though I tried not to misrepresent myself. My instructor will probably agree with you. I hope she isn't angry with me. I just thought that learning from dog owners would be a good first step to gaining more experience. I didn't represent myself as a trainer, again. I only represented myself as a beginning student trying to learn. My ad was pretty clear, but it sounds like it's STILL a bad idea...thanks for the warning.


The thing is, you aren't supposed to be learning from dog owners. In the role of trainer, you're supposed to be TEACHING dog owners. This is why you *really* need a dog before you become a dog trainer - you learn from your own dog (or multiple of your own dogs) before you ever even consider that you're experienced enough to help others. 

You're approaching this like science still, and it's not. The things you do, or don't do, and the things you teach, or don't teach, could have significant repercussions on a major part of people's lives - their relationships with their pets. It is a huge responsibility. Every bit as much of a responsibility as teaching students in a classroom. Did you set foot in a classroom before you took a bunch of classes in order to be prepared for it? I would assume not. Did you begin to teach children before you were certified? I hope not, because that's illegal. It's not illegal to train dogs without a certification, but it's just as unethical.

We've already decided that you really don't like dogs, or people. So why the compulsion to continue to pursue this?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm also in a two year training program and I can tell you that the folks who designed and run the program are pretty adamant about not taking clients until you're at LEAST a "senior" (last 6 months) or have already graduated. You actually need to know what you're doing when you take clients, even unpaid. First off, your uninformed actions could have dire consequences, as others have mentioned. But beyond that, if you don't know what you're doing and don't actually help at all, you're going to completely tank your reputation as a trainer before you've even begun. Not a good idea.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I will just add that part of the people side of dog training, which is most of it... Is learning how to read what people tell you. Because one thing you learn is what they say isn't always what they mean, and not necessarily in a deceitful way. For example, "He's a little shy around people" can actually mean "He has a bite history and will put holes in you if you try to shake my hand." 

Not only can making a mistake have dire consequences for a dog or owner, but it can be a safety risk to you as well.

For the record, I found my shelter job by doing exactly as you did. I was a pet owner who knew what I thought to be 'enough' and posted a craigslist ad. Yeah, I had a few people respond though I cut those short before actually working with their dogs. My now supervisor found my ad and invited me to work at the shelter instead. I am beyond grateful, and lucky, that things turned out the way they did. I knew a lot by the time I posted that ad. But the person I was then did not know how to read cases like I do now, and although I would like to think I wouldn't have screwed anything up... who knows!

I GET going out on a limb and just doing. I'm that kind of person. I somewhat do agree that it is unethical. Then-me wouldn't have cared. Now, I see how people like then-me can taint the name "Trainer" and how big the consequences can be.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

You've all made really good points. I don't want to taint my reputation before I even build one, and I don't want to mess up the relationship of owners with their pets. Still, though, going back to the teaching example. No, I didn't start teaching kids without my Education courses, but I actually could have legally done so. I worked as a substitute teacher and tutor for a number of years before I started actually teaching. I could have gotten that experience earlier and been ahead, but I didn't know experience counted more than coursework. I learned that sometimes you just have to have confidence and put yourself out there. I honestly feel like I could have gone through student teaching my second year and not really missed anything important. In fact, I kind of wish they would have done it like that, because then I would have known how to apply the other things I was learning. 

Well, one rescue did contact me. I wonder if it would be okay to ignore the pet owners who contacted me, or just tell them that I probably won't be of any help, and contact the rescue, explain the full story so that they don't get the wrong idea, and do some volunteer work for them?

I guess I need to learn not to treat life like a science experiment, but I tried being cautious at the beginning and really didn't have too much to show for it at the end. Had I known what I know now, I would have started tutoring and teaching the day I enrolled to become a teacher. I guess that sounds counter intuitive, but it really does take experience, and, for me, applied learning is the best kind of learning.

How did I learn how to teach? I learned by carefully watching teachers in their classrooms, taking notes, and experiencing the trials and tribulations of classroom management as a substitute teacher. The coursework was actually only a very little part of it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> You've all made really good points. I don't want to taint my reputation before I even build one, and I don't want to mess up the relationship of owners with their pets. *Still, though, going back to the teaching example. No, I didn't start teaching kids without my Education courses,* but I actually could have legally done so. I worked as a substitute teacher and tutor for a number of years before I started actually teaching. I could have gotten that experience earlier and been ahead, but I didn't know experience counted more than coursework. I learned that sometimes you just have to have confidence and put yourself out there. I honestly feel like I could have gone through student teaching my second year and not really missed anything important. In fact, I kind of wish they would have done it like that, because then I would have known how to apply the other things I was learning.
> 
> Well, one rescue did contact me. I wonder if it would be okay to ignore the pet owners who contacted me, or just tell them that I probably won't be of any help, and contact the rescue, explain the full story so that they don't get the wrong idea, and do some volunteer work for them?


If you don't teach a kid math, it isn't the end of the world for the kid. If you don't teach a kid English, I would hope the parents don't turn him over to the government. There are other teachers during the day to pick up some of the slack, etc. 

Having confidence to put yourself out there is all well and good once you have a decent body of knowledge to put yourself out there with. 

I'd say, withdraw your ad and politely inform any interested person that you are not available for training.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

That's good advice.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> I guess I need to learn not to treat life like a science experiment, but I tried being cautious at the beginning and really didn't have too much to show for it at the end. Had I known what I know now, I would have started tutoring and teaching the day I enrolled to become a teacher. I guess that sounds counter intuitive, but it really does take experience, and, for me, applied learning is the best kind of learning.
> 
> How did I learn how to teach? I learned by carefully watching teachers in their classrooms, taking notes, and experiencing the trials and tribulations of classroom management as a substitute teacher. The coursework was actually only a very little part of it.


Applied learning in this case sounds like applied learning under the supervision of experienced teachers. Not going out on your own and teaching. The learning process you mention for teaching kids is very much what we are suggesting happen in a shelter situation or under the tutoring of a good trainer. Still don't really know why you want to train dogs, but if you want to train them, then start on the right foot. 

That said, because we are humans and most of us have experienced learning to read and write etc, there is still some level of familiarity and safety net if one is teaching the 3 R's to kids vs teaching dogs.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

No, the substitute teaching was NEVER supervised, and I didn't need a teaching license to do it, either (although I did wait until I got one and regretted it). Tutoring, too, was done all on my own. Sometimes the kids DID know more than me, and other times I didn't know exactly how to help them. It was all a learning process, and, no, there was a big disconnect between what I learned as a student and what I learned in the classroom. They didn't really complement each other, to the point where I think the program could have been shorter and taught us more with hands-on experiences.

Really, I just got in and did it. While earning my bachelor's degree, I even tutored a post-doctoral student and proofread his papers; honestly, yes, he was teaching me a little more than I was teaching him, at least I felt that way, but he trusted me to do it because I had a really strong understanding of writing and grammar.

Yes, student teaching helped a lot, but a big part of that was actually getting in front of the class and teaching, and, no, I don't really feel like any of my coursework was necessary for that, either, as a big part of it was just being comfortable around the kids.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess the basic concept is, if you teach a kid a subject badly, they may have problems in the future with the material, but they can always learn it properly. Unless you're cruel to the child, it will probably not lead to the child's death or major malfunction. It's purely academic.

With dog training, it's not purely academic. If the dog is not trained properly, it could very well lead to the dog's death. 

So a bit more caution is needed. Now if you stuck with people who simply want to teach their dog cutesy tricks, this could work! But any kind of life skills training can have a major impact on a dog and the owner. Make sure you have a reasonable idea of what you're doing before you go there.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I want to become an animal trainer (not just a dog trainer, but I'm having to start here), because I feel like it's a skill that, for me, would complement teaching. These two skills have a lot in common. Plus, I like the idea of teaching animals. I think I'm pretty good at it. It's just that dogs have a tendency to develop problematic behaviors, and I guess that makes them more challenging. I guess that's why I want to learn how to train dogs. I can't imagine training another animal would be any more difficult (well, except maybe animals with shorter attention spans).


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

My ad was worded pretty much toward the idea of teaching basic stuff, like cute little tricks and things like "sit," "stay," "heel," etc. Those are all things I think I can do, but I was informed here that even that was a bad idea, because owners have a tendency to exaggerate their dog's abilities and minimize their problems...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

What have you taught animals in the past that leads you to think you're pretty good at it?


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Willowy said:


> I guess the basic concept is, if you teach a kid a subject badly, they may have problems in the future with the material, but they can always learn it properly. Unless you're cruel to the child, it will probably not lead to the child's death or major malfunction. It's purely academic.
> 
> With dog training, it's not purely academic. If the dog is not trained properly, it could very well lead to the dog's death.
> 
> So a bit more caution is needed. Now if you stuck with people who simply want to teach their dog cutesy tricks, this could work! But any kind of life skills training can have a major impact on a dog and the owner. Make sure you have a reasonable idea of what you're doing before you go there.



Really? I don't think there's that much of a difference. I teach at a detention center, so I get to see the end result of the "school to prison pipeline." These kids get caught up in all kinds of stuff, drugs, gangs, armed robbery, etc. Of course, some of them end up dying at very young ages. Some of them commit crime because they just can't "do school," so they tried to find what they thought was an easier way out. Unfortunately, the cycle might continue, because now some of them have felony charges and can't easily find good jobs.A good education can make or break you.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Crantastic said:


> What have you taught animals in the past that leads you to think you're pretty good at it?


I like animals, and I like interacting with them. I guess it's not all that's required, but it's at least a good start. I feel like I can form a connection with some animals and get them to do what I want. It's not across the board, unfortunately, though. There are some animals I've had a lot of trouble with.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> My ad was worded pretty much toward the idea of teaching basic stuff, like cute little tricks and things like "sit," "stay," "heel," etc. Those are all things I think I can do, but I was informed here that even that was a bad idea, because owners have a tendency to exaggerate their dog's abilities and minimize their problems...


Maybe this is where the disconnect is happening - most people contacting a private trainer aren't contacting the trainer to teach their dogs 'sit', 'stay' and 'heel'. Private trainers are generally hired for problem dogs. Reactivity, resource guarding, neurotic or impulsive behaviors like barking, dog/dog aggression, even dog/human aggression. THOSE are the issues people hire private trainers to help with.

People who want to teach their dogs the basics generally either do it themselves, or go to a group class with their well-behaved dog who does well in that type of environment.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

You're not really selling yourself here. And dogs are the one animal in this world that have co-evolved with us to the point of being more cognizant of our social cues than any other animal, including our closest ape relatives.

So I would disagree and say that dogs are one of the best 'pets' our species can ask for. But still, you haven't mentioned what you've taught animals in the past.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, I mentioned in my ad not to contact me for stuff like that, because I wouldn't know what to do. That's what I said in my ad.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I like animals, and I like interacting with them. I guess it's not all that's required, but it's at least a good start. I feel like I can form a connection with some animals and get them to do what I want. It's not across the board, unfortunately, though. There are some animals I've had a lot of trouble with.





aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I also acknowledge that I have a history of failing with dogs. I started keeping dogs when I was a young teenager, but it always fell into the same pattern. I raise a cute little puppy. It turns into a dog. The dog develops lots of really bad habits and refuses to really break those habits. I lose interest in the dog.


This right here is enough to signify that you should not be trying to teach anyone's dog anything.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I guess you think it's probably weird for someone who doesn't really understand dogs (and has admitted such) to want to become a dog trainer, but that's pretty much the situation here, and it was a similar situation when I went to school to become a teacher. I just wanted to understand learning (and people) a little better. I think I succeeded a little in that goal, so maybe dog training will be similar. 

That's good information on the problem behaviors. I did encounter a dog that did some resource guarding once upon a time. I attempted to feed him out of my hand to see what would happen. Well, that wasn't that smartest thing I ever did...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Really? I don't think there's that much of a difference. I teach at a detention center, so I get to see the end result of the "school to prison pipeline." These kids get caught up in all kinds of stuff, drugs, gangs, armed robbery, etc. Of course, some of them end up dying at very young ages. Some of them commit crime because they just can't "do school," so they tried to find what they thought was an easier way out. Unfortunately, the cycle might continue, because now some of them have felony charges and can't easily find good jobs.A good education can make or break you.


Oh I'm extremely critical of schools and how they handle things. But, I still argue, it comes down to someone being cruel to the child---telling them that they're stupid, or bad, or hopeless, or advancing the idea that someone who gets bad grades is worthless---rather than how accurately they're taught long division, ya know? Even the most highly educated teacher could be cruel or dismissive. More of a teacher character issue than an education issue. And home issues have a huge effect, much more than school issues. 

And a "good" dog trainer could be cruel too, so it's not entirely without comparison. But I feel that a caring but undereducated teacher isn't likely to do much harm, whereas a caring but undereducated dog trainer could do a lot of harm. Dog training has more effect on home life than academic teaching does.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Crantastic said:


> This right here is enough to signify that you should not be trying to teach anyone's dog anything.


I'm not taking that to heart; I could also tell you that I sometimes take a similar view to children that I take to dogs and horses (human beings, after all, even young ones, are capable of much more cruelty than animals). Experience shapes opinion, but experiences change. I like kids (and probably dogs and horses) I just don't think I would make a good parent or owner. Now, I can teach kids (and I can probably teach animals), I just don't want to be responsible for that child's or animal's life outside of school.


I think I get your point, though. I should wait and get some experience before I try any serious training.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think it was the "lost interest" part that's most concerning. If you (more than once, apparently) lost interest in your own pet, how dedicated will you be to training when things get frustrating?


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

How dedicated am I at school to kids who I probably wouldn't even acknowledge in any other setting? VERY. As long as I get to go home at the end of the day, everything's fine. Now, if I were the one bailing them out of jail, paying fines, and taking off of work to go to court, that would be a different story. I'm sure I would have a much shorter temper if that were the case, but since we're talking about other people's kids, and I'm not technically responsible in every way, as the parent is, I'm great. In fact, it's almost therapy. I get to see these kids very differently than their parents probably see them.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It was a couple of things, really. Losing interest was definitely a red flag. But I was more concerned with the OP believing that the dogs "refused" to break their bad habits. In all likelihood, the dogs just didn't understand what was being asked of them. The blame should be placed on the trainer for not communicating clearly, not on the dog.

OP, read some books before you start doing anything with dogs. I like The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. I think you'd enjoy it; it's a scientific book that discusses dogs and primates and how we communicate (the author has a PhD in zoology and has worked with multiple species, so she knows of what she speaks), but it's written in a more informal and engaging style. It's a quick read and should teach you a lot.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

To be frank, a dog trainer who doesn't own dogs is a joke, and will be viewed poorly by institutions, peers, and potential clientele. If you don't like dogs enough to own one, then I'm sorry, you're just not cut out for this job.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Hiraeth said:


> To be frank, a dog trainer who doesn't own dogs is a joke, and will be viewed poorly by institutions, peers, and potential clientele. If you don't like dogs enough to own one, then I'm sorry, you're just not cut out for this job.


I don't really understand that assessment, though. There are many teachers who are MORE effective because they DON'T have kids, and a handler at a zoo isn't expected to own lions to know how to work with them, so I don't really see your point. I personally think I could gain more effective experience by working with other people's dogs than by taking up my time with my own. When working on my own with my own dog, I might get experience, but it's more likely I would get frustration. By working while supervised by other people, I have to temper that frustration and make sounder decisions. 

Plus, I've acknowledged that I'm not really ready for a pet dog and don't even think dogs should occupy that space, as they are mostly better suited to being workers, not pets, but that's my opinion, and it comes mostly from not really having enough time for the dogs I did own.

Now, it's possible my opinions will change as I work through this program, and when or if they do, it's possible I'll foster a dog or two once I feel I'm in a position to do so. Personally, I like the idea of raising dogs that will eventually be in the hands of others, though, preferably as emotional support animals, guide dogs for the blind, or support dogs for disabled people. I may have ZERO (well maybe one percent) interest in keeping a dog as a personal pet (but I'm willing to train all of the energy out of it to help a quadriplegic veteran, if I ever learn how)!

For pets, I prefer small animals that don't think they're humans...(cats, ferrets, birds, etc.)

I said all of that, but I could totally imagine myself with a well-behaved (miniature) poodle (they're hard to find, though. The toy versions are abundant, but I don't like toy poodles--they're too childlike and their heads are too big.)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Again, this is because teachers are teaching academics to children; they aren't teaching life skills to parents and children. And even for people who do that stuff, they used to BE children, so we all have experience with kids, it's just so much different than with animals. And a lion trainer isn't teaching people how to interact with their pet lion; they're not even allowed to be in close contact with the lion (except for very sketchy places). 

If you feel like dogs shouldn't be pets, do you think that attitude will come across to the pet owners you want to work with? The VAST majority of dogs in this country are pets, if the owners feel like you're contemptuous of that they likely won't feel comfortable with you. 

I hope you can find a niche that works for you. But even a Service Dog needs to be a good pet. That's really the biggest part of dog training.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Willowy said:


> Again, this is because teachers are teaching academics to children; they aren't teaching life skills to parents and children. And even for people who do that stuff, they used to BE children, so we all have experience with kids, it's just so much different than with animals. And a lion trainer isn't teaching people how to interact with their pet lion; they're not even allowed to be in close contact with the lion (except for very sketchy places).
> 
> If you feel like dogs shouldn't be pets, do you think that attitude will come across to the pet owners you want to work with? The VAST majority of dogs in this country are pets, if the owners feel like you're contemptuous of that they likely won't feel comfortable with you.
> 
> I hope you can find a niche that works for you. But even a Service Dog needs to be a good pet. That's really the biggest part of dog training.


The more I think about it, the more I think that my prejudice is really against dog owners, not so much dogs. I've just seen so many bad examples of it, and I think I'm guilty of being a bad pet owner myself, even though I'm at least willing to educate myself.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I think that my prejudice is really against dog owners, not so much dogs.


Yes probably . Dogs are just dogs, who do dog things. When there are problems it's the owner's fault. 

What kind of regulations are you thinking of? There are a lot of bad horse owners too, so whatever horse regulations you have in mind aren't doing much good :/.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, I think horses have to at least be allowed to roam and the owner has to have a certain amount of land for that to happen. I also think they can't be kept in cramped conditions in the city limits or allowed to run free through the streets. I could be wrong about this, but I think you also have to give your horse a certain amount of preliminary training so that it can abide by those rules and restrictions. 

Dog owners, nah, they can throw their dogs in the corner of a crowded cage and as long as they remember to feed, water, and keep it clean, they're fine. Never mind that it might be developing aggressive tendencies or feeling angry and confused all of the time.

I think people should be required to get certain permits to own dogs and cats, really, especially dogs, and earning that dog permit should require taking basic obedience classes with the puppy or dog they plan to adopt. They should also be required to take a test on what constitutes animal cruelty.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I told those people who contacted me that I was a complete novice and was trying not to misrepresent myself, and I think a few of them still want me to train their dogs to gain experience! Maybe they did understand my ad, or maybe my area has a lot of really naive dog owners.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, most towns have rules against keeping horses in city limits, but that's because they weigh 2000 pounds and need a lot of space. And a loose horse in the road is an utter disaster; people die that way. Most towns have laws against letting dogs run loose, too, but it's a lot easier for a dog to duck under a bush and not get caught than for a horse to go unnoticed, lol. There are also usually laws about keeping dogs in small cages or other bad conditions, but since law enforcement can't just wander into your house whenever they feel like it, enforcement is dependent on someone reporting those bad conditions, and people rarely like to report their friends and family members. 

Many horse owners keep their horses in bad conditions, there are sometimes laws against that but enforcement is lax (too expensive to send someone out to a farm 40 miles from nowhere). There are usually space requirements, but that applies to cows and other large animals too. It's easy for a horse owner to put their horse out to pasture and neglect it, they do not require any kind of training to be out in a pasture. 

And mostly, Americans don't like anyone telling them what to do. A lot of countries do have requirements for keeping pets but the US is notoriously resistant to making laws like that.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Advertising to train dogs when you have no dog training experience..... Bad idea.... 

A dog trainer with no dogs is not a dog trainer.... Your example with teachers is apples and oranges...

You can get all the "degrees", "certificates", "diplomas" etc in the world....

But until you have trained and lived with dogs, 24/7.... you are NOT a dog trainer....And thus have no business putting out any ads..


Let me ask you this.... Would the FAA give you a pilots license without actual time in the pilot's seat?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I cannot see how anyone who does not want to even have a dog and does not think they should be pets is bothering to even think of being a dog trainer. There is no comparison between a teacher of children and training a person to train a dog to be a pet and companion to someone. There are always people who if they think they are going to get their dog trained for nothing will still want you to do it as they have no idea that a person would even suggest it if they did not know anything about dog training or dogs at all and made a mess of it when they were younger and did have a dog.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Honestly, the part about "if you don't know how to do it, don't ever try it," doesn't make sense to me anymore. That's not how people learn, and I figured that out in college. I was so afraid that I wouldn't be "the expert" when I started out that I denied myself a lot of important learning experiences. If you want to know how to do it, you will have to try to experience it.

I did send an email to the trainer to let her know what I'm planning on doing. She hasn't responded yet, but I'm pretty sure her opinion on the subject will probably help me make my decision. In life, if you never ask, you sometimes miss opportunity. Even if this is a terrible idea, the trainer may know of some alternatives I can pursue. At least it's showing initiative and interest.

As for not owning a pet dog, I don't think that's going to be a problem, as I'm pretty sure I can get a friend to lend me one of hers for training. I told you that I frequently get frustrated with my pet dogs. I do not, however, frequently get frustrated with others' dogs, or even dogs that I feel like I'm raising for other people, just like I don't get frustrated with other people's kids, even though I know I would be very frustrated if they were my kids. If the dog belongs to someone else (or will belong to someone else in the foreseeable future), I see myself as helping another person, and that is fair motivation for me to put up with the dog, just like helping the parent is fair motivation for me to deal with someone else's kid. Otherwise, I find unruly behavior quite stressful and generally don't put up with it if I don't have to. For example, if I see a child acting up in a public place, I usually ignore it or walk away. If I see a child acting up in my classroom, I deal with the problem behavior to get the kid back on task.

Technically, I think I do know a little about training dogs. It's just that emotion kicks in, more often than not when it's my own dog, and I don't always make the right decisions. When it's someone else's dog, emotion, for whatever reason, doesn't play as big of a part. I'm calmer and much more rational. 

I agree that when and if I want to market myself as an actual experienced dog trainer, I will have to have had a pet dog, and I will probably eventually get one. I can probably find one to adopt from the animal shelter I'm planning to volunteer with, actually, but right now I think it would be best for me to work with dogs in settings that I know won't frustrate me. Other people's dogs DO NOT frustrate me; they never have.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I feel like we're beating a dead horse. You are talking to people who have a combined hundreds of thousands of hours of dog owning and training experience. JohnnyBandit breeds and shows dogs at the highest level. CptJack competes with her dogs. I have a lot of experience working with reactive and aggressive dogs. We ALL own dogs. And we're telling you that you're not cut out for this, your expectations are skewed, and you should drop your pursuit of this because it really sounds wrong for you. 

At this point, this is just a waste of our time. We're here on this forum to HELP people and to have interesting conversations about dogs. We've all invested a lot of time in trying to help you, and you've repeatedly decided that you know more about dog training than a bunch of people who actually OWN and TRAIN dogs.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

A lot of people have already said why it's a really, REALLY bad idea to market yourself as ANY kind of independent dog trainer at this point. You need to be under the supervision of an experienced trainer at this point. As a tutor or sub, you're one very small cog in a much larger system designed to (at least try to) catch kids who fall behind in crucial subjects for whatever reason. As a dog trainer, you may be the ONLY 'professional' that animal sees in its lifetime. And yes, by advertising yourself as available for training, even as a 'beginner', you're presenting yourself as having some grounding in theory, behavior, and/or successfully raising and living peacefully with your own dogs.

By doing this at the level you are now, you are putting the dogs, the owners, and yourself at real risk of physical harm, and the dogs at risk of psychological harm. End of story. 

Besides that, I haven't heard you talk much about technique. Say you have the 'perfect' dog - engaged, happy, relaxed, but not so excited it can't think - but it's never heard a command in its life. How would you teach sit? What would your first step be, and why? What would you do if that didn't work? Maybe it'd be easier to give feedback if we knew what kind of advice you want to offer potential future clients.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I like getting things to do what I want them to do; that's communication and control. It's how people are supposed to function, but I sometimes find talking to people difficult. Dogs are easier to handle than kids, in some cases, and cats are easier to manage than adults. Plus, I just like being around animals.


I'm glad you're not working with kids anymore in that case. Yikes. 

You do realize that dog training is a service position, right? You're not working with the dogs, you're working with their owners. Imagine every single session is a PTA meeting. That's what you're getting into. You sure you wouldn't rather just get into pet-sitting or something?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Also, what kind of insurance are you thinking of? Legal contract? Because if you work with a dog and owner, even saying you're a beginner, and after you work with that dog the dog bites someone and needs to be euthanized, there's a pretty good chance those owners are going to come and sue you. And probably win. And without insurance or the protection of an LLC or something similar, that's all your money and assets they'll be getting. The likelihood of scenarios like this gets higher and higher the less you know what you're doing.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

A lot of you have expressed concerns I didn't consider. I think perhaps I should contact a local veterinarian and see what path I should actually take. I wanted to show initiative, not get in trouble. I was under the assumption the owner would understand that this was informal, a beginner working with a dog to get more experience, I mean I was pretty clear in my ad and requested that if the dog is aggressive or has problems, they shouldn't contact me. I also re-emphasized it to the people who contacted me. I suppose still, though, this might be different than just working with a friend's dog for fun. I don't have a tendency to notice those kinds of differences, usually. I didn't think of it as a professional transaction. I thought that if it was on a volunteer basis and I didn't represent myself as a trainer, only a student, and was upfront about not really knowing what I was doing, they wouldn't be able to do anything to me legally, because I never represented myself as someone who could help. My ad even said that I had no professional training, yet, and I repeated that when I contacted them. 

Anyway, the trainer echoed your concerns a little and recommended I not start trying to train dogs until later in the program, like when I'm required to have a dog to work with. She also recommended that I wait until year two to work with aggressive dogs (to be honest, though, I don't want to encounter aggressive dogs, period).

If I listened to everyone who told me that I "didn't sound like a good fit for..." I would probably be unemployed and sitting on the couch.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

Please don't become a dog trainer if you don't want to work with aggressive dogs period. Be an accountant or something.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I would imagine dogs that actively seek to attack people are probably rare. I would think most of the aggression problems are dog to dog aggression or dog to small animal aggression.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Hiraeth said:


> I feel like we're beating a dead horse.


The dog trainer who is supposed to be teaching me said that it was a bad idea to try to train people's dogs this early, so I agree with you and appreciate the advice.

It's just a little aggravating to often get so little out of any kind of training without getting enough experience, and I've let that happen enough to know that I shouldn't ever let it happen again. I know that I don't know more than experienced dog trainers, I never said or implied that. In fact, I feel like to truly be viewed as capable of working with animals, I would probably need to go to another college and pursue an advanced degree in animal behavior science. Either that, or build a strong track record of actually working with animals, preferably both.


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## Moonstream (Apr 3, 2016)

I will be honest, I have read only the first few pages of this thread in detail, and skimmed the rest.

First, I will echo what some other have said. Certification does not make a dog trainer. I'll add to that (possible it has already been said) that there is a stark difference between what the public thinks makes a dog trainer, and what other dog trainers think makes a dog trainer. 

For the general public, if you advertise as a dog trainer, you are a dog trainer. Unfortunately, this means that you can have very little education about learning theory, dog behavior and cognition, or information about (humane, effective) behavioral modification, and find clients willing to pay you to train their dog. It also means you get to decide when you're ready to train other people's dogs, which means that a lot of people probably start far too soon.

With other trainers, there's going to be a lot of variation in what individual trainers think makes a competent, good, or great dog trainer. That is going to be tied strongly to how they train, and how they relate to dogs, but one of the biggest things (IME) other trainers look at is how that person's dog, or dogs, behave. Not having a dog doesn't necessarily raise red flags, but never having owned and trained your own dog (as an adult) likely will. More than that, I know several people working to become trainers who have never owned their own dog, and I can tell you that beyond any shadow of a doubt, they are worse trainers for it. Without fail, I have been less impressed by the people who never owned a dog (or had one that they barely trained) than by the people who have had dogs and whose methods and way of relating to dogs differs drastically from my own. Why? Because the people who have not shared their life with dogs, or who have never attempted to train to a high level before, don't even know what they don't know, and that is the biggest curse of all.

The absolute worst way to get experience training dogs is to immediately begin marketing yourself as a professional (even a new, inexperienced one) and have people give you their dogs to train. It sounds like you're understanding this, but I think it still bears mentioning, because *part of learning is learning through mistakes, and you will make a lot of mistakes in the beginning*. For me, this is where is it imperative that any trainer have experience with their own dogs. You're going to make mistakes, and if those mistakes are on other people's dogs, you're 1) less likely to be seeing the extent of the fallout of those mistakes, 2) possibly not even going to have the chance to acknowledge them as mistakes, and 3) not going to have to live with the issues that you are likely to cause and/or worsen in those dogs.

Because of the level of involvement we expect of dogs in modern human society, a great many issues people are going to involve- as other have said- "lifestyle" issues. Crate training issues, house training issues, issues with destruction, issues with communication between dog and human, issues with the dog interacting with certain aspects of the world in certain places, like strangers in the house, or dogs on a walk around the neighborhood. If you're hearing about an issue and thinking "gee, where would I even begin", then you shouldn't be working with other people's dogs. 

You can begin to understand how to overcome these issues through sharing a life with your own dog, and I don't know that I believe anyone could ever truly help others with these issues without sharing their life with a dog. If someone is tackling one of these issues for the first time as a trainer, I certainly hope that it is not without having tackled other issues with similar motivations (ie, maybe you haven't ever worked with a resource guarder, but you've dealt with stranger fear aggression and understand what its like to work with a dog who doesn't trust people and is probably very anxious and insecure). When you have your own dog, you're going to experience a wider range of issues in a shorter time frame. Honestly, not having a dog *because* you worry about running into issues is troubling. You cannot learn without challenge. If a trainer is never coming across a dog that makes them feel like they know absolutely nothing, or that maybe there is more to learn, then I question what kind of trainer they are. I am a good trainer- maybe not a great one, but definitely a good one. I know a lot. Every dog I work with still teaches me something new, and occasionally I work with a dog who makes me question whether I even know anything at all. Part of being a professional (IMO) is being able to experience that and, in the moment, re-evaluate and adjust your approach to something without skipping a beat.

Talking about how you gain knowledge... I really think that this is a field where you absolutely need to be able to self-educate. In my experience, the hopeful trainers who do not know how to go out and get information themselves are the ones who struggle the most, and often the ones who burn out early. Part of this is because without the ability to attain your own knowledge, you're left accepting the word of mentors as gospel, and this does not breed your own training methodology, it perpetuates the methods of others. This might be OK if they're good methods, but this is how we end up with compulsion based training franchises where the methods are a harsh one-size-fits all, this works and this is worthless, and lead to people training dogs without regard for possible fallout, and creating as many issues as they "fix".

If I had to tell someone the best way to get involved in training dogs, it would be to get a dog who can meet you where you are now, share you life with that dog for awhile, and then find a dog who can really challenge you. If that means starting with a fully trained dog (should you be able to find one needing a new home), fine, but don't have any illusions that that dog is going to prepare you to start taking behavioral modification cases. Personally, for those working on behavior modification, I want to not only see extensive formal education in that regard, but to know that they have experienced what it's like to love an animal whose behavior makes you really struggle, so that they can empathize with their clients- because it is really difficult to live with a fearful, anxious, and/or aggressive animal. I also want to know that they're lived with it and overcome it. What it might help you do is to start learning about the mechanics of animal training, and putting hands on experience to concepts relating to learning theory and operant and classical conditioning.

I'd also suggest reading online, reading books, and watching videos. Take notes. Study the notes. Absorb that information on your own, in your own way. Tawzer Dog is a great online library of videos that you can pay for 48hr online access to, or buy to own for slightly more. Bow Wow Flix is sort of like a doggy netflix, where you send out for certain videos and send them back to trade for different ones when you're done. Youtube has some great channels- "Kikopup" and Zac George both have good beginner videos. Donna Hill has a nice selection for higher level stuff as well.

Karen Pryor and Fenzi Academy both have great online courses to look into.

In terms of online reading, Patricia Mcconnel, Ian Dunbar, Denise Fenzi, Sophia Yin, and Karen Pryor (thought clicker solutions) all have great online material available that can help with beginner concepts as well as help elevate your learning. Pryor's book Dont Shoot the Dog is IMO keystone reading for animal trainers, as is Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash, and Yin has some very nice books as well. These are just things to help start you off, and they certainly don't replace hands on learning.

Dogs are not tiny humans on four legs. They are dogs. They have a fascinating natural history as a species. They perceive the world differently than humans. They have staggering cognitive ability in some areas (like being able to learn through social mimicry and being excellent patterners) and absolutely no ability to conceptualize other things (such as lacking the concept of connectivity- there has been evidence suggesting that dogs don't understand they are connected to a person when on a leash). They have more emotional range than previously thought, but questions are still raised as to the extent of that emotional range (for example, do they have "higher emotions" such as jealousy or guilt).

Above all else, realize that dog training is a service profession. You aren't training dogs, you're helping people train their dogs. Even if you're doing the in the trenches training work, like with day training, you need to help the owners learn how to cue the behaviors, and show them how to upkeep it. A dog learning to do something for you isn't going to magically generalize to doing the same thing, in the same place, for someone else, even if that person is their owner.

If you're interested in just learning about _animal_ behavior, then I would suggest going back to school. There are a lot of animal science programs in colleges these days, including from online schools.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh, and I totally forgot to add, there are some interesting animal or dog-specific behavior courses in places like Coursera and Udemy. A lot of them are even free. I've used them as a continuing and broadening of my knowledge sort of thing. 

Comparing dog training to teaching humans is not really a fair comparison, by the way. It's more like trying to teach an alien species if you have zero common language, if you're going to compare it to teaching. Learning through programs or working under a mentor is what helps you develop that common language and the ability to read another species' body language and so on. You need a "rosetta stone" as it were. If you just go and work through trial and error, it will take a HUGE amount of time and you're going to leave a trail of broken dogs and ticked off owners. The way that dogs and animals thing, their instincts and desires, are foreign to us as humans. It really is critical to have a guide to learning about the canine view point.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Wow, thanks for explaining all of that. I guess I wasn't very smart to think that a dog training course would actually teach me how to be a dog trainer. I look for easy methods, but you've raised some good points, and I think you've gotten to the point of why I, right now, would not make a very good dog trainer. I wonder if I should bring this up to my instructor? 

Unfortunately, I think I have several very good examples of when training stupid pet tricks can go awry, and, to be honest, it's like every dog I've ever owned has developed some kind of behavior issue. From my perspective, it's like dogs are just prone to developing behavior issues. I guess that's why they aren't my favorite animal. I even contacted a trainer once, if not mistaken, and she told me that it was because I was giving off a lot of "nervous energy," whatever that meant. Anyway, it wasn't something I felt could be solved just by teaching the dog some tricks. I was totally lost on what to do, and, actually, it seemed like the more tricks the dog learned the more it decided to use them in ways that weren't beneficial to me. Of course, I felt defeated. I felt like I couldn't really get through to this dog, even though we started off pretty strong. He listened to me pretty well as a puppy, but things changed when he became an adult; his behaviors became more destructive and instinct took over and modified some of those cute tricks I taught him when he was younger. 

Now, as an observer, I could write down what I think was hurting my dog. There were a lot of distractions in the neighborhood and just things that he found way too rewarding concentrating on than listening to me. My ideal solution would have been to make him a working dog if I could have found him the training. That way, he could have put that strong instinct to chase prey and insatiable curiosity to teach himself how to do crazy things to good use. Unfortunately, that would have been the solution, to be honest, I would have wanted for every dog I've owned, and I guess that's because, no matter how many articles I read or how many instructional videos I watch, I just can't seem to get the dogs to do what I feel like they should do. It's really frustrating. To be honest, I don't think what I would absorb from training classes offered by a pet store would be enough to stop me from inadvertently training these problem behaviors into my dogs. Of course, I've felt insulted and angry when dealing with this big flashing neon sign saying, "I don't take care of my pet," when in reality I do or at least try to. People have wondered if I abused or neglected my dogs in the past, and, no, I haven't. I want to say, "they just don't like me," but there has to be something else. 

To be honest, I find owning a dog an exercise in frustration because of this glitch that always pops up. I feed them, water them, teach them tricks, and take care of them, and they revert back to their old ways and become mongrels. I think I would have more luck rehabilitating a feral cat than some of my pet dogs, to be honest. The weird thing is, though, this isn't a challenge for other people. Again, it just seems like dogs don't really like me. Of course I've never felt that connection dog owners say they have with their pets. The relationship I've had with my dogs was more like the relationship one might have with a juvenile delinquent (who for some reason cares maybe enough to help you if you are in danger). Maybe I made them delinquents but I don't know how I accomplished that.

I don't speak dog, but the reason I try over and over again is because I think I just learned the wrong lessons.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The bottom line I think you're missing re: other dogs and your perception is that you just don't teach the dogs some tricks, do the sometimes/when it amuses you, and hope they otherwise turn into/behave like good dogs. You can't just train them and then leave them to their own devices. 

And the dog turning into a 'good dog'/basic manners is actually a means of a lot of training, a lot of management, and YEARS of making sure bad habits don't develop and turning good behavior into a habit. Ie: You prevent the dog from peeing in the house by making s ure the vast majority, if not all, of the times they go is outside. So 'go outside' is the default for them. You keep them from jumping on people by having them sit down EVERY SINGLE TIME so "YAY NEW PERSON" response is to sit down because that's just what they do, when they want pet. 

There's also the element of dogs being masters at reading human emotion. Which is something that they feed off, for good and ill. So if your dog runs off? And you are upset when they do come back, they're going to avoid coming back. 

and for the record 'working dog' would not have solved a SINGLE ONE of those things in a way 'throw a ball and teach the dog to chase it or a disc' wouldn't have. Working dogs require MORE training. Wildly chasing dogs without human instruction would work for a large hound, sort of, but that's about it. Otherwise they need to, well, respond to instruction. 

Also, re: training a lot's a lot more complicated with them that it looks. Or I suspect you think it is. Actually, everything's more complicated than it looks.






How many trained actions/commands (verbal, nonverbal) do you think are in this video of a single, short, agility course? 

Because the answer? Is 26.






This one is 29.

(And I'm sharing this both becuase it's informative and because I counted for other reasons and just plain wanted to share.)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also something that I haven't seen mentioned is that cats don't really have natural behaviors that are 'annoying' to people. Which means most of the time you get the odd issue - like litterbox avoidance, or getting on the counters, or scratching the furniture - but in homes they mostly just... co-exist with us, and that's that - or they're trained for fun tricks. Dogs DO demand more of their people, both in training (go outside to go to the bathroom, walk on leash, come when you're called, don't jump on people) and in INTERACTION. They're social animals. So are most people. That's why we love them as pets, but that's also why they're not the right pet for everyone and are higher maintanence than most cats. 

And why some people are dog people and some people are cat people and some people love both - there are a lot of differences in what they bring to the table.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> it'ss like every dog I've ever owned has developed some kind of behavior issue. From my perspective, it's like dogs are just prone to developing behavior issues. I guess that's why they aren't my favorite animal. . .I want to say, "they just don't like me,"


It's fine to feel this way about dogs---a lot of people do! But it just comes down to "if you feel that way, why would you want to be a dog trainer then?"

I know you don't necessarily want to address this aspect of it, so I won't expound on it too much, but I've found that people who are "on the spectrum", males especially, don't always get along with dogs, and vice versa, or they at least need to work harder at understanding dogs. Man, dogs HATE my dad. He isn't mean to them; they just think he doesn't act like a human is supposed to. It makes sense, because dogs are in tune to human emotion and body language, so when a person is atypical when it comes to those matters it makes the dogs react differently.

So maybe dogs aren't for you. That's fine. But a person can't be a good dog trainer if dogs aren't their thing.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

Willowy said:


> I know you don't necessarily want to address this aspect of it, so I won't expound on it too much, but I've found that people who are "on the spectrum", males especially, don't always get along with dogs, and vice versa, or they at least need to work harder at understanding dogs. Man, dogs HATE my dad. He isn't mean to them; they just think he doesn't act like a human is supposed to. It makes sense, because dogs are in tune to human emotion and body language, so when a person is atypical when it comes to those matters it makes the dogs react differently.


That's a really offensive and ignorant thing to say.
-an autistic adult with two autistic siblings who are much beloved by dogs


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LennyandRogue said:


> That's a really offensive and ignorant thing to say.
> -an autistic adult with two autistic siblings who are much beloved by dogs


Yeah, my youngest is autistic. I will admit that some dogs respond weirdly to him, but most treat him like a younger (than he is) kid -a nd not just dogs he lives with/knows and is known well by. The ones who don't respond well tend to be responding to things like stimming and because they're fearful - not his existence. His emotions and behaviors are still human. 

THAT said, he really doesn't much like dogs. ...also because he's human.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Willowy said:


> It's fine to feel this way about dogs---a lot of people do! But it just comes down to "if you feel that way, why would you want to be a dog trainer then?"
> 
> I know you don't necessarily want to address this aspect of it, so I won't expound on it too much, but I've found that people who are "on the spectrum", males especially, don't always get along with dogs, and vice versa, or they at least need to work harder at understanding dogs. Man, dogs HATE my dad. He isn't mean to them; they just think he doesn't act like a human is supposed to. It makes sense, because dogs are in tune to human emotion and body language, so when a person is atypical when it comes to those matters it makes the dogs react differently.
> 
> So maybe dogs aren't for you. That's fine. But a person can't be a good dog trainer if dogs aren't their thing.



If I had to name the number of experiences it seems like having autism has ruined for me, I suspect I would be typing for a while. Imagine living your life in sort of a sensory deprivation chamber. I guess that's a pretty good analogy. I'm repelled by most social situations, so I seek my company from animals and inanimate objects. Yes, I'm weird, but my dad is weirder; he can even get along well with animals that haven't been domesticated; he lives on a hunting ranch and could probably make pets of every four-legged creature--(at one point, my dad had a wild "pet" skunk and porcupine; they ate from the cat bowls), and he's great with dogs. I'm great with cats and okay with most other animals, but dogs are just...weird. They really confuse me; they are a lot different from the other animals, and the ways I would communicate with the others isn't a good tactic for dogs. People may think that dogs are easy to get along with because they are smart, but I don't really know what it is, but I tend to struggle with things other people call "easy," anyway. It's always been this way for me. I excel at what people call "complicated." I just see the world differently. To me, cats and even wild animals, are easy to understand and communicate with; they're even friendly. That's not a perspective most people would have, at least I don't think so, and I wonder if I didn't develop it by hanging around my dad. Dogs, on the other hand, though, they're too demanding. It's kind of like trying to take care of a chimp, and those are animals I don't think I could ever get along with. 

Well, this course is non-refundable, so it looks like I'll be taking it and hopefully taking something away from it, even though I may not become a dog trainer from it.

I do have some special considerations. Do you think I should let my instructor know about all of this or just see what I can pick up by going through the course like a "normal" person?

I'm not really into dogs; I'm into all of those other animals, and I wanted to unlock more of the world of animal psychology; that's why I'm taking dog training. Maybe it was a misguided venture, though. I just thought I could do more with dog training than, say, general animal behavior psychology.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So sorry, I didn't think that was offensive, just my personal experience. Dogs (in my experience) seem to prefer typical body language, that's all I meant. You can see my people skills aren't so great either!


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

I think you might just not like dogs, OP. The way you've described them, I'm not sure you'd really enjoy working with dogs. I know I said "try being an accountant" in a way that sounded like snark but I'm actually not kidding...if you think you don't like dealing with people, being an accountant isn't a bad way to go. It's not the hardest math out of STEM fields, pays OK, and at the end of the day if people don't listen to you and go and mess everything up...hey, not your problem. It's not something that really matters like a dog's well being or a person's safety.



CptJack said:


> THAT said, he really doesn't much like dogs. ...also because he's human.


Dogs seem to love people who ignore them and don't try to interact much. My uncle is a dog magnet and he barely ever acknowledges them...same with my younger brother lmao.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Here's a simple example: 

A normal wild animal would respond pretty well to positive reinforcement training and conditioning, like the food is presented when the animal hears a sound, the sound is given when the animal does a desired behavior, and then the animal repeats the behavior hoping to receive the treat. This works for most animals, at least mammals I think. It can be used to lure a deer closer to you, get a skunk used to you, or snap a great picture of a wild cat, but with domesticated dogs, chimps, and horses...results may vary, as they will often build upon the desired behavior in unexpected ways.

Unfortunately, it's kind of like dogs often try to reward themselves. They'll learn a trick but then simple repetition of that trick to get the food reward isn't enough. They'll often teach themselves other, more destructive, behaviors. If I'm right, this is my experience with dogs (and similar animals) in a nutshell. Sorry if I seem judgmental of these animals. I just kind of want to understand how to get dogs to do the normal thing and just respond correctly to the stimulus presented, not build upon it, or sometimes ignore it entirely, in favor of more creative, and usually destructive, behavior. I think that's what really frustrates me about dogs.

Ironically, testing boundaries is a feature that was bred into them to make them more "user-friendly," if I'm correct.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

But that's exactly the kind of mindset that makes me think you don't really like dogs. I think maybe you like the idea of dogs. But your idea of how training works is just not correct. Even if you were to clicker train a deer it wouldn't always do what you want it to...you can't really train a deer not to graze though you could train a deer to graze in one location over another by supplying tasty snacks in the preferred location. You can clicker train ferrets, cats, dogs, dolphins, etc...

Sometimes dogs try to overcompensate when they're confused or stressed, or really you just didn't train them to do what you wanted in all circumstances.

But what you're saying really doesn't sound like a healthy mindset to enter dog training with. You're not working with an input-output machine...you're working with a living creature that experiences confusion, pleasure, and can self-reinforce fun behaviors like chasing and chewing. The key is to give them an appropriate outlet. Teaching a dog to sit doesn't teach your dog not to chase cats...it teaches your dog to sit. I don't know what exactly you taught your dog that you think "a simple repetition" for a food reward isn't enough...but it is for most dogs when you're trick training.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Simple repetition of behavior for a food reward IS enough, but they are ultimately scavengers and ... emotional creatures, in a sense. That means to train the dog you have to:

A-) Provide rewards of food, affection, and fun which are superior (TO THE DOG, and what that means will vary dog to dog, because they are individuals) to what the dog can access itself. 

AND

B-) Prevent the dog from self-rewarding. 

What that means in practical terms is, yes. I can teach my dog to, for instance, sit for a piece of cheese. It does not mean that my dog will not then get into the trash to get leftover chicken if the chicken in the trash is accessible, the dog likes chicken more than cheese OR I'm not there with my cheese to tell the dog to sit. 

And the first time the dog gets chicken out of the trash, it as learned that getting into the trash provides something the dog wants, and the behavior of getting into the trash is more likely to be repeated - same as a dog who learns to sit is more and more likely to sit every time doing so gets it a reward, a dog who learns there is food in the trash is more likely to keep going back, every time it succeeds. 

That is true of literally EVERY ANIMAL IN EXISTENCE. EVERY animal will self-reinforce. That is basic learning theory for all things from goldfish to tigers to elephants to dolphins to dogs to primates including humans. It is why raccoons keep getting into the trash, over and over, or repeatedly show up in locations where feral cats are fed. They get rewarded (by food) for being there. So they come back for more food. It's why deer baiting is illegal - deer get used to being fed at x location and show up there. It's why every animal of every type does anything, or learns anything "this gets me what I want, so I do more of it".


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LennyandRogue said:


> .but it is for most dogs when you're trick training.


It is for most dogs when you're doing any training - though some dogs don't much like food and would rather play. In which place it's 'repetition for another reward - like a ball. Heck, it's true for everything with a nervous system.

Provided you aren't really drilling the dog or making the process unpleasant in some way and therefore poisoning your reward o making them display avoidance behavior.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> It's why every animal of every type does anything, or learns anything "this gets me what I want, so I do more of it".


I show up for work, I get paid, money gets me stuff like a place to live and food. Its a longer delayed gratification than most animals can handle (and sometimes, more than some humans can handle...) but heck, treat the payday like a clicker that marks that the reward is arriving and its the same chain of events. Make work unpleasant enough and the paycheck (the treat) isn't worth it so avoidance behavior (i.e. quitting a job) is displayed.


Back to the OP--

Take the dog training classes since you have paid for them and they are available. Read all the materials suggested from the library and online. Regardless of what your learning style is, you need to be able to access that information; use an audio book if reading isn't preferred and some do have videos to supplement the reading. But go out there and learn from trainers, not by messing up other peoples' dogs.

Then come back and say why you really want to train DOGS--and--their OWNERS. Not what you hope to do after training dogs, not why dog training will supposedly teach you to train some other animals, not why it is better than something else that doesn't fit you. Say why you want to train dogs and owners as a team. Not cats, not wild animals. Dogs. If you do the reading and the classes and cannot say why you want to work with dogs and their owners in and of themselves, then I simply cannot see dog training being a fit.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

It sounds simple in practice, but I haven't been able to train any pet dogs I've owned to avoid the trash, stop chasing cats, stop biting people when greeting, etc., and it seems like they just develop these behaviors on their own. I never introduced the dog to the trash and told it to knock the can over. At least I don't think I did. I never told the dog to try to dig its way under the fence (or as one of my dogs did, actually climb over it!), and I certainly didn't teach it to chase the neighbor's cats or to bark at and try to bite small children or other dogs. If my dogs developed any of these behaviors, they developed them on their own without being directed or reinforced by me at all. What they teach themselves is often, well at least to me, independent of any training they receive. They learn basic obedience commands, like "sit," "stay" "come," and "heel," but they often won't perform them when they don't want to. 

I'm thinking this is unique to dogs and maybe horses and primates, because I've literally never had an issue with any other animal I've been responsible for knocking down the garbage, chasing cats, and biting small children even after its fed, provided plenty of exercise and play, and even taught other behaviors that are supposed to prevent it from displaying those unwanted behaviors. 

I guess for a dog owner this is easy, but the only way I see of realistically preventing problem behaviors in a dog I've owned is by locking that dog up when I'm not around it. It seems cruel, but I know from experience that they will do whatever they want when they are left on their own, and how on Earth could I prevent that if I'm not around?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> It sounds simple in practice, but I haven't been able to train dogs to avoid the trash, stop chasing cats, stop biting people when greeting, etc., and it seems like they just develop these behaviors on their own. I never introduced the dog to the trash and told it to knock the can over. At least I don't think I did. I never told the dog to try to dig its way under the fence (or as one of my dogs did, actually climb over it!), and I certainly didn't teach it to chase the neighbor's cats or to bark at and try to bite small children or other dogs. If my dogs developed any of these behaviors, they developed them on their own without being directed or reinforced by me at all. What they teach themselves is often, well at least to me, independent of any training they receive. They learn basic obedience commands, like "sit," "stay" "come," and "heel," but they often won't perform them when they don't want to.
> 
> I'm thinking this is unique to dogs and maybe horses and primates, because I've literally never had an issue with another animal I'm responsible for knocking down the garbage, chasing cats, and biting small children even after its fed and provided plenty of exercise and play.


You didn't need to introduce the trash-- the trash smell of food and dogs have a way better sense of smell than we do. The trash is like, I dunno, similar to a big pile of cookies and candies on a table within sight of a toddler. the majority of the time, management (putting trash away under a sink or in a pantry etc) is more reliable and less stressful for the dog than expecting them to ignore a buffet right in front of their face.

Some dogs will always try to go under or over the fence because roaming is part of them. Some do it because they are not fixed and there is a dog in heat on the other side. Some do it because they are bored. Again, it isn't about "introducing" the dog to the negative action but rather about A)preventing the negative action and B)providing a more rewarding positive action.

Biting people- well, that depends on the age of the dog and what you mean by biting. Puppy nipping is normal. Teenage mouthing is normal. Adult dog going for a bite meaning to injure is not normal. 

Again---
Read (a lot), watch the videos, take the classes, and learn. Then explain why you want to train dogs and their owners. Until then, you are just making wild guesses about dog behavior and training and holding on to a lot of misinformation.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Shell said:


> I show up for work, I get paid, money gets me stuff like a place to live and food. Its a longer delayed gratification than most animals can handle (and sometimes, more than some humans can handle...) but heck, treat the payday like a clicker that marks that the reward is arriving and its the same chain of events. Make work unpleasant enough and the paycheck (the treat) isn't worth it so avoidance behavior (i.e. quitting a job) is displayed.
> 
> 
> Back to the OP--
> ...


Okay, but given my past experiences and track record of failure with them, that's going to be a challenge. I'm not a dog person. I don't hate dogs; I just don't think untrained dogs should be available to the public. They're awesome in their place as therapy and service animals, though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, this whole thread just -

I don't train dogs professionally, and have no desire to do so. This, in spite of having owned dogs my whole life, owning five now, and having done lots of all kinds of training in various sports, with different dogs. I LOVE training. I love the puzzle. I love the challenge. I mostly love the way training builds relationship and trust with my dogs, and the things it teaches me. I think I do okay - heck, I think I do better than okay, because sometimes I can do pride and the truth is I hold my own amongst a lot of people who are certified and paid quite well to train dogs. 

But I don't have anything to offer the general public. I know who trains around me. I know what their experience and skill level are. I have people who are bette, more experienced, more knowledgeable than me if someone needs help with basic manners, sports (any spot, frankly), or behavioral help. 

I like dogs. I want to see them succeed. I want to see their *owners* succeed. That means I refer people to the best and I am NOT the best. I am not the best shot of the dogs or the people being successful. I will help people who come to me for help, in an informal way, but when people NEED a trainer? I am always, always, going to send them to the best person for the job. And the best person for the job is the person who's already there, who's been training dogs professionally for years, and who has titled multiple dogs in multiple venues across multiple sports. Who has students who are succeeding and getting those titles. The person who's worked with and helped 20 reactive dogs - not one - and hundreds of family dogs. 

I will train dogs professionally when and if I see a community need for something I can offer. 

And since I'm also not an overly people-y person, I'm not sorry about that.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Okay, but given my past experiences and track record of failure with them, that's going to be a challenge. I'm not a dog person. I don't hate dogs; I just don't think untrained dogs should be available to the public. They're awesome in their place as therapy and service animals, though.


Or.... have you considered this option... don't train dogs?

BTW, by saying that dogs shouldn't be pets and that untrained dogs (which are ALL puppies) shouldn't be available to the public, you've kinda insulted most people here. Both those who are dedicated pet dog owners who give their dogs plenty of exercise, training and fun plus those who started with puppies and trained them for work AND the overlap between them AND those who have rescued adult dogs with no training and gotten them adapted to being happy pets or sport dogs etc.

And to echo CptJack-- I like training well enough or I wouldn't take in foster dogs that need training. But I have no interest in training the owners of dogs and that's a good 75% of dog training in most professional situations. Plus, with fosters, i can somewhat pick and chose my training problems. For example, I don't deal with human aggression but I have dealt with dog aggression. I dislike potty training so prefer adult dogs but am fine with leash training. Etc. You can't pick and chose like that with professional training for the majority of the time. Heck, half the time you won't really even know what the problem is based on someone's vague description.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Okay, but given my past experiences and track record of failure with them, that's going to be a challenge. I'm not a dog person. I don't hate dogs; I just don't think untrained dogs should be available to the public. They're awesome in their place as therapy and service animals, though.


Yeah, sure, but for us dog people the bonding, the relationship, the trust is foundational to training and training is foundational to relationship and trust - chicken and egg. I don't want an already trained dog. I want to train my dog, myself. It's how we develop a system of communication and life together. 

So I'm petty glad that your opinion that untrained they shouldn't be available to the public isn't anything that has weight. 

I mean, service dogs are raised and initially trained by the general public (ie: puppy raisers, or in some cases where the general public owner is training their own service dog for access) . Therapy dogs are just pet dogs the public owns, trains, has tested, and then is used as a therapy dog because the dog's (general public) owner volunteers both their time and their dog.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

If I don't fit after my training is over, then I won't fit, and taking the course will probably just be for (yet more) information only. I don't expect anyone to hire a dog trainer who isn't good with dogs. I admit that I have a lot to learn, but I know this is a dog forum, but am I seeing things the wrong way or are dogs really different than other animals? What I said about having difficulty keeping them in line was true. It really is a problem I do not perceive having with any other animal I've kept as a pet. For me, it's terribly annoying, but maybe I'm the only one who has experienced it (at least as a problem that doesn't have an easy solution)?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I mean, service dogs are raised and initially trained by the general public (ie: puppy raisers, or in some cases where the general public owner is training their own service dog for access) . Therapy dogs are just pet dogs the public owns, trains, has tested, and then is used as a therapy dog because the dog's (general public) owner volunteers both their time and their dog.


Ayup.

Here are the backgrounds of some of the most amazing therapy, educational or assistance type dogs that I have met, obviously before finding their "forever" home:

--On a heavy chain attached to a wood dog house in a muddy yard.

--Tossed off a 100+ foot tall bridge into a large river.

--Born in rescue with completely unknown background.

Yes, they had crappy owners to start with (excepting the born in rescue puppy technically) but they had/have great owners after that and each one came "untrained" to those good owners.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, sure, but for us dog people the bonding, the relationship, the trust is foundational to training and training is foundational to relationship and trust - chicken and egg. I don't want an already trained dog. I want to train my dog, myself. It's how we develop a system of communication and life together.
> 
> So I'm petty glad that your opinion that untrained they shouldn't be available to the public isn't anything that has weight.
> 
> I mean, service dogs are raised and initially trained by the general public (ie: puppy raisers, or in some cases where the general public owner is training their own service dog for access) . Therapy dogs are just pet dogs the public owns, trains, has tested, and then is used as a therapy dog because the dog's (general public) owner volunteers both their time and their dog.


Sorry, maybe I should have said that if a dog has not been trained by the time it is an adult, that person should have to give up ownership of the dog.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Sorry, let me say this another way, if a dog has not been trained by the time it is an adult, that person should have to give up ownership of the dog.


:deadhorse:

What's "trained" then? Where's your line in the sand? Who would have the authority to decide what a trained dog is and to force someone to give up a dog that they quite likely love and care for and to whom would this dog be giving up to then? 

Frankly, that entire concept is disturbing/scary/wrong.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Shell said:


> :deadhorse:
> 
> Frankly, that entire concept is disturbing/scary/wrong.


Why is it wrong to prevent a dog from causing property damage, chasing small animals, and hurting people? Untrained dogs do this, don't they?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Why is it wrong to prevent a dog from causing property damage, chasing small animals, and hurting people? Untrained dogs do this, don't they?


Yep. 

And there are already laws in place to deal with every last one of those.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

CptJack said:


> Yep.
> 
> And there are already laws in place to deal with every last one of those.


The only thing I've seen enforced are leash laws, but maybe things have changed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> The only thing I've seen enforced are leash laws, but maybe things have changed.


Depends on your area, but more laws aren't going to be enforced any more regularly or consistently. If you have a problem with them enforcing laws that already exist, extra laws won't help. Figure out how to enforce what's there, and you're set. Don't figure that out, you're screwed either way, but that has nothing to do with 'shouldn't be allowed to own untrained dogs', frankly. More 'you already can't allow dogs to be dangerous to other people, other people's property, or animals, and someone should get on the ball because people in your area aren't enforcing laws to prevent that already'.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm sorry, but I've got a lot of baggage related to failed dog ownership in the past. I'm not sure if I misunderstood the fundamentals of training a dog or if I just got so frustrated that I lost focus, but when I try to imagine life with a dog, I usually imagine unpleasant things. I apologize. I know I'm on the dog forums. I'm not saying that dogs are unpleasant for all people, but I'm wondering how I should even begin approaching this situation without again subconsciously associating it with something negative.

By signing up for this course, I feel like maybe I've set myself up to fail...

If you were in my place, what would you tell the person who is supposed to be teaching you to handle dogs?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, take the class, work on fundamentals and gaining knowledge, try to keep and open mind and honesty just accept that maybe you *just don't like dogs*. This is a dog forum, and obviously we adore dogs, and they are work, but some people just don't like them. 

It isn't a failing. It's a personality trait and preference.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

CptJack said:


> Honestly, take the class, work on fundamentals and gaining knowledge, try to keep and open mind and honesty just accept that maybe you *just don't like dogs*. This is a dog forum, and obviously we adore dogs, and they are work, but some people just don't like them.
> 
> It isn't a failing. It's a personality trait and preference.


Yes, I know. I should stop whining, get off, and come back when I have some real questions. This isn't a place to vent frustrations. Are there any places like that on this website?

I probably need to discuss some of my concerns with the trainer. I doubt that course is going to work miracles.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Tell the trainer the things you've told us, and they'll probably give you a refund.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> That is true of literally EVERY ANIMAL IN EXISTENCE. EVERY animal will self-reinforce. That is basic learning theory for all things from goldfish to tigers to elephants to dolphins to dogs to primates including humans. It is why raccoons keep getting into the trash, over and over, or repeatedly show up in locations where feral cats are fed. They get rewarded (by food) for being there. So they come back for more food. It's why deer baiting is illegal - deer get used to being fed at x location and show up there. It's why every animal of every type does anything, or learns anything "this gets me what I want, so I do more of it".


Move over Thorndike. CptJack is IN. DA. HOUSE.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Move over Thorndike. CptJack is IN. DA. HOUSE.


Best. Compliment. Ever.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Crantastic said:


> Tell the trainer the things you've told us, and they'll probably give you a refund.


Why do you say that?


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Why do you say that?


Because you've basically described not being a dog person. That's a bit of a critical flaw in this profession. Secondly no refund policies aren't always set in stone so if "I spent money on it" is your only reason for staying now then you might as well explain the situation and see if they'd be willing to give you at least a partial refund.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

You've already said you don't even like dogs all that much! Why on earth would you want to work with them for your job? Trainer burn out is very common with dog trainers, and that's dog trainers who actually love dogs and people. You are absolutely setting yourself up to fail.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Why do you say that?


Because the people who train dog trainers don't want to set themselves up for failure, either.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

Effisia said:


> You've already said you don't even like dogs all that much! Why on earth would you want to work with them for your job? Trainer burn out is very common with dog trainers, and that's dog trainers who actually love dogs and people. You are absolutely setting yourself up to fail.


I think I will explain more of this to the trainer and see what she says. The graduate dog trainer I spoke to before I signed up, though, sounded really optimistic. This seemed like a really good program. I guess my tone has come across a bit more critical than perhaps it should have. I'm just frustrated that I don't really know how to interact with dogs. I guess it often comes off sounding like I'm frustrated with dogs in general. I'm frustrated with bad training, and I think all I know how to do is bad training! 

I don't know if it would be fair to ask for a refund without even taking my first lesson. I might actually like this course and actually learn how to interact wiht dogs for once. Right now, though, I'm just a little frustrated.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Honestly, the part about "if you don't know how to do it, don't ever try it," doesn't make sense to me anymore. That's not how people learn, and I figured that out in college. I was so afraid that I wouldn't be "the expert" when I started out that I denied myself a lot of important learning experiences. If you want to know how to do it, you will have to try to experience it.
> 
> I did send an email to the trainer to let her know what I'm planning on doing. She hasn't responded yet, but I'm pretty sure her opinion on the subject will probably help me make my decision. In life, if you never ask, you sometimes miss opportunity. Even if this is a terrible idea, the trainer may know of some alternatives I can pursue. At least it's showing initiative and interest.
> 
> ...


No one is saying... "if you don't know how to do it, don't ever try it,"

But you are trying to do two things.... 

1)rush things.... Becoming a dog trainer is not an overnight thing.... It takes YEARS.

2) you are attempting to put things in the wrong order...


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

JohnnyBandit said:


> No one is saying... "if you don't know how to do it, don't ever try it,"
> 
> But you are trying to do two things....
> 
> ...


Okay, the part about dog training taking years isn't something anyone told me. I was told that it would take a little while to actually start a dog training service once I received my certificate, but no one told me it would take years to actually become an effective dog trainer.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Okay, the part about dog training taking years isn't something anyone told me. I was told that it would take a little while to actually start a dog training service once I received my certificate, but no one told me it would take years to actually become an effective dog trainer.


It will not take you years to be able to teach a dog or two sit/down/stay/tricks.

It could well take you decades and a thousand or more dogs to become a really good dog trainer who can handle most dogs and teach most things. Even then, you'll still be learning. 

So I guess what it really means is it depends on what you consider effective. 

But a couple of years ,at least? Yeah. Minimum.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I think I'm going to actually try to finish the first part of this program before I quit (since the first half just covers basics I think). At worst, I'm out $2500 and know a lot more about dogs than when I started. I think, though, I'm going to try to be fair to myself and not start with an actual dog right away. I think right now (or whenever I'm supposed to start the first lesson) I'm going to read over the material and reflect about the dogs I've owned in the past and where I possibly went wrong.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Okay, the part about dog training taking years isn't something anyone told me. I was told that it would take a little while to actually start a dog training service once I received my certificate, but no one told me it would take years to actually become an effective dog trainer.


Of course they did.... They want your money so you can get your "certificate"..... 

A lot depends on you... But you are never going to be a dog trainer, without owning dogs.. (Not just one) training them and living with them 24/7.....

When you have finished whatever course you are taking... Sounds a LOT like ABC.... It will mean NOTHING.... Other than you completed a course... You will not have trained a dog.... Start to finish...And training one dog means little... Dogs are individuals... .

To be a trainer.... You have to learn to take what you have learned and know about dogs and apply it to the dog in front of you.... Every dog is a challenge... Every dog is different... Because no two dogs are the same...


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

One thing that's only come up tangentially is the business aspect of dog training. If you intend to actually make money at it, you're going to need to incorporate a small business and get insured, unless you intend to exclusively work at PetCo or some other facility. Before you take on any private clients, you'll need to figure out tax payments and legal liability if you don't want to risk losing your shirt to the IRS or a civil suit. It's not as simple as just hanging out a shingle. 

Even operating on a volunteer basis as a private individual, you're still potentially open to lawsuits. Until you have your ducks in a row legally, it's a bad idea from a self-interest standpoint to do anything not under the umbrella and supervision of a professional.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I think one thing that's tripping you up is instinctual behavior. In small animals, many instinctual behaviors (as CptJack said, like clawing the furniture or getting on the counters with cats) society accepts as 'part of the package' and understands that management (giving cats more scratching posts, using furniture covers, shutting them out of the kitchen, etc.) is going to be the most effective way to live with the issue. Larger animals (even small breeds still have the instincts of a medium-large predator), like dogs or horses, also have natural, instinctive behaviors, but they need to have the most destructive and 'rude' (by human definition) behaviors heavily modified and/or redirected for us to live peacefully with them. And dogs are the ones that typically live indoors, sharing every moment of their lives with us but also subject to the most rules and expectations that many times go directly against their natural instincts.

Despite this, society expects every dog to come knowing how to greet people politely, not nip when playing, stay out of the trash, only bark at actual dangers, not knock over children, stay off of the sofa, etc. etc. _Every one of these things_ has to be taught, because they go directly against natural canine behavior. Some dogs will learn some of these behaviors more easily than others, yes, but others may take years or never entirely 'get it', because dogs are individuals with distinct personalities. Living with a dog means reinforcing good behavior and redirecting bad _every day_. Not in formal training sessions, perhaps, but in small stuff like not feeding the dog table scraps when he's whining and pawing at you, or not letting them greet you until they're sitting politely on the floor. 

Without setting these boundaries, dogs - being the wonderful opportunists they are - will act in ways that seem inappropriate to humans, but to the dog? It's just how they've learned to get what they want. They're not trying to 'take control' or 'be sneaky' or 'defy' anyone, they're simply performing natural behaviors that reward them with attention, food, an opportunity for a good chew, an exciting chase, whatever they may find rewarding.

The truth is, you are right. Dogs are different. I could go into their amazing cognitive abilities and how they've basically co-evolved to work closely with humans, but the way I think is important here is... they bear the burden of our expectations more than pretty much any other species we take into our homes. But that doesn't mean that they don't have instincts and natural behaviors, and it doesn't make a dog that indulges in these a 'bad dog,' just one who hasn't been taught a 'polite' alternative is more rewarding.

Operant and classical conditioning works exactly as well for dogs as it does for chickens, horses, orcas, humans, big cats, etc. But the expectations for big cats, to use them as an example, are "stand in your spot to be fed" or "press a paw to the bars and stay still for an injection" or "go into your indoor enclosure when we signal". Simple, clear commands of what TO do, and then they're left to do their big cat thing most of the rest of the time. Most households' expectations for their dogs look more like "potty outdoors and also don't steal food and also stay off the couch even when we're not here and also don't pull on the lead and also leave the cat alone and also don't beg and also don't bark at the neighbors and also don't jump and also..." so on and so forth. Teaching any animal what NOT to do is always much harder than teaching them TO do, for one, and then they're expected to follow these many, many rules all the time, regardless of distraction or whether a human is present.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

No one is saying not to try the thing you're bad at. We're saying _not to try it for money in potentially unethical circumstances_. Just by placing the ad, you're implying that you have some idea of what you're doing, and regardless of how many indemnities you put in the ad, I guarantee you that the majority of owners who respond won't have read them or won't understand that when you say you have no experience that means you have no experience successfully training dogs period - not just professionally. As this thread has evidenced, there are plenty of people that have experience training dogs, but have never done it as any kind of professional.

I have very little interest in working directly with dog owners. I also spent four years volunteering at a shelter and working with my own dogs before getting paid to do anything even kind of close to being a dog trainer (I now assess and work to modify behaviour of shelter dogs). And I can honestly look back and say that even though after 2 years, I was having success with behaviour mod in a variety of shelter dogs, I still didn't really know what I was doing. Actually doing it is a much different ball-game than reading about it; many books present things in the ideal, and that is almost never the cause. Dogs often react to things in unexpected ways, and you need to be able to identify the causes of those unexpected responses (which may be obvious and might not be), and that's just not something that you can learn through reading.



aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Why is it wrong to prevent a dog from causing property damage, chasing small animals, and hurting people? Untrained dogs do this, don't they?


At least where I live, all of these things are already illegal. They are enforced based on complaints and evidence. By-law officers aren't going to confiscate a dog without evidence just because one person complained about it once and there was no evidence to support their claim.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> Okay, the part about dog training taking years isn't something anyone told me. I was told that it would take a little while to actually start a dog training service once I received my certificate, but no one told me it would take years to actually become an effective dog trainer.


He is right, I got certified, but not before spending years (since I was a kid, I showed junior handler) in the "trenches" with my own dogs, proving them and myself.

Going back and reading through this thread, I dont think that being a dog trainer is for you, if you want to work with zoo and wild animals, then go that route, judging by your post, you seem like a very intelligent person, and I am sure you will do great.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

WOW not really sure the full context of this thread... it has gone a bit of everywhere and now we are not going to be a dog trainer?? if your just feeling awkward that it's over your head not to have a feel for dogs in general.. Then go sit and watch them. Don't interact with them, just find places there are dogs and just sit and watch them. Don't worry about trying to understand what they doing or having a name or a purpose for it... just sit and watch them being dogs. You do over time and experiences get a feel for them just watching , do their own thing in different situations, in groups, and how they respond interact to their owners in connection to how their owners interact and respond to them. It's free and you just absorb to pay attention.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I really recommend volunteering at a shelter. Not volunteering to train their dogs, just volunteering in whatever capacity they need help. Feeding, cleaning, walking, cuddling, playing, whatever. It really seems like you don't have a grasp on what it actually means to interact with dogs at all. What they're actually all about.

I've been volunteering as a dog care attendant with a shelter going on 5 years now. You are going to be jumped on. You are going to be scratched, bruised, drooled on, nipped, clothes ripped, knocked down, and even bitten. That just comes with the territory. You are going to touch/see/cleanup/smell poop of various consistencies, pee, and vomit.

It sounds like you want to learn the formula from the online course, and then you feel you can just apply the formula to the dog and the dog will be trained/fixed. In reality this is so far from the case. Dogs are thinking feeling beings with their own thoughts and ideas. You find it strange their your dog figured out how to get under the fence to chase a cat because you didn't show it how to do that? He's got his very own brain thinking and evaluating and problem solving just fine without you.

What motivates any given dog will be different. And even what motivates that same dog in different situations will be different. Even what motivates that same dog in that same situation on a different day might be different. You need to learn to understand that dog and have a relationship with them so you can understand what motivates them, and it really doesn't seem like you have any interest in doing that.

Chasing small animals means not being trained? That is what many breeds were BRED to do! Were -trained- to do! My dog would chase a small animal before you could blink because it is such a powerful instinct and drive for her. That said, she lives with our cats peacefully and has competed in various levels of dog sports, completed advanced obedience classes, etc and so on. I prevent her from chasing small animals out and about by having her on leash. Is she still not a trained dog to you? It's just ridiculous.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I told myself I was going to stop posting in this thread. I lack self control because. 

Dogs are the ultimate teachers in dog training and they're the only one who's standards you must meet. Theoretical knowledge, learning theory, that stuff? It's interesting. It's useful. It is GOOD TO HAVE and it does help decode a lot of thing, but at the end of the day, the dogs are the best teachers AND the ones passing out the grade. 

I posted this on FB, it's relevant, I'm posting it here:

Jack: compulsion is bad; don't do that. Bug: dogs pay more attention to your body language than your words, anyway. Use that. Kylie: training is communication, not just being able to issue orders. Thud: dogs don't all speak the same language and none of them read the books; be patient and ADAPT. Molly: There can be no meaningful communication without trust and relationship.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is my "Dog Training Journey" over the course of my current dogs. They really do have lessons for us. All the way back to the first one when I was four, who taught me dogs are good friends, but if you are obnoxious they will bite you and you will deserve it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I also find it interesting that you think you can teach heeling (whether you mean actual heeling or just loose leash walking) because it's one of the behaviours that many people struggle the most with.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

This whole situation is just perplexing to me.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> Like Canyx, I have very little interest in working directly with dog owners.


I've sorta given up on this thread, but I do want to chime in and say that I LOVE working with dog owners and people in general. No offense taken at this or anything, but wanted to clarify because that is a huge part (maybe 80% or more) of my job as a full time trainer. Before this, nearly all of my other jobs have been customer service oriented too. Even my previous animal welfare job involved a lot of communication with people (in the lowest income bracket of that city), and it gave me a new appreciation of people to the degree of influencing how I see political issues. For the record, I am an introvert through and through and I've thoroughly enjoyed my solo jobs (ex. cutting meat without saying anything for 8 hours) too. But I still see it as sort of a life mission to help people in some capacity, and I thrive when working with them.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Canyx said:


> I've sorta given up on this thread, but I do want to chime in and say that I LOVE working with dog owners and people in general. No offense taken at this or anything, but wanted to clarify because that is a huge part (maybe 80% or more) of my job as a full time trainer. Before this, nearly all of my other jobs have been customer service oriented too. Even my previous animal welfare job involved a lot of communication with people (in the lowest income bracket of that city), and it gave me a new appreciation of people to the degree of influencing how I see political issues. For the record, I am an introvert through and through and I've thoroughly enjoyed my solo jobs (ex. cutting meat without saying anything for 8 hours) too. But I still see it as sort of a life mission to help people in some capacity, and I thrive when working with them.


I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that, sorry!


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## Moonstream (Apr 3, 2016)

I'm hoping that others haven't scared you off of the forum and you're still reading responses...

What I see when I read this thread is a logical mind interested in quantifying the behavior of animals. It sounds like you feel like you "get" a lot of other animals, and have a basic understanding of the input/output relationship between the environment and the behavior of the animal, but are perhaps feeling like your experience with dogs isn't living up to the input/output of stimulus/response that you see in other species, and have historically approached it with a view that dogs are just different (in a not necessarily negative but leaning towards negative way), and- frustrated by not understanding them- you decided to figure them out by taking a local dog training course. It also sounds like, through no fault of your own, you were led to believe by the trainer offering the course that dog training at a professional level was easily achieved by following a formula- was even _easy_ once you "had" that formula- and therefore figured that, given your interest in animal behavior and on the presumption that once you had the formula dogs would be easy to figure out, you decided that maybe a career change to dog training made sense. This is a very common marketing tool that dog trainers use to sell classes, and one that really rubs me the wrong way. I don't think that it is usually coming from a place of malicious intent or trying to mislead, but it leads to a lot of misunderstanding and a lot of people marketing themselves as being more knowledgeable than they are.

All that to say, I understand how you came to the conclusions you did, and I think that they _were_ valid conclusions with the information you were given. I also see _a lot_ of growth over the course of this thread, in a very short period of time. You now seem to have an understanding that the information you were given was, if not wrong, at least flawed, and have re-adjusted your expectations of the course. I also think (as someone who firmly believes that knowledge for the sake of knowledge has worth, and that expanding one's horizons is an admirable pursuit) that your determination to at least try the course is admirable, and is a very positive choice given that you seem to have much more realistic expectations from it.

One thing that I always say, is that dog training is equal parts science and art. The science part of is sometimes formulaic- it is the part that rests on learning theory, classical and operant conditioning, and the information we have about dog cognition and emotional capacity, about the meanings of different body language and vocalization cues, and about the natural history of the species in general (what do we know about how they were domesticated? What do we think? What separates the modern dog from the modern wolf genetically and behaviorally?). The science, for a logical mind, is something that can be taught in a course offering. The science can provide the mechanics of good training- marking desired behavior in a timely manner, giving rewards at the time, knowing when and if to correct a behavior and how to do so, understanding the possible fallout of correcting behavior and how to evaluate if a dog is likely to benefit or be hurt by corrections and at what level they should/can/should not be applied. The art part of it is being able to look at a dog and understand what it needs, being able to understand how to build a relationship (trust, love, etc) with a dog (often, as a professional, in a very short period of time), being able to interpret what might be conflicting or ambiguous information in vocal/physical behavior cues that tell you about what the dog in front of you is thinking or feeling. The art is developing the "feel" for dogs, and it is something that cannot be taught _to_ you, though it can be guided by someone else. You have to be able to, at some point, be working with a dog and work it all out yourself (which, I'll add, is where having your own dogs comes in handy- it gives you a lot of practice). The art is also developing the "interpersonal" skills with an animal to achieve the greatest success- being patient when they fail, guiding them to success while still encouraging thinking/independent problem solving, knowing when to end a training session and how many an animal can take in a day, etc. This especially is something that you must learn for yourself, and cannot (IMO) be taught.

I do think that @CptJack's listing of lessons that dogs have taught them (her? I think) is a really good idea, and truthfully is something I will probably encourage clients to do in the future. I did it myself just now, and it felt very carthartic to reflect back on the biggest lessons past dogs have taught me. As someone who it sounds like has had a lot of different animal experiences in the past, I'd encourage you to sit down and think about the lessons ALL KINDS of past animals have taught you. Think about whether you feel those are species-specific lessons or could be about dogs as well. Think about where you succeeded with animals, and where you failed. Think about how problem behaviors in those animals may have been caused by your behavior. I have created behavior problems in my own dogs, for sure. One was with my childhood dog Darla. She started out feeling nervous around other dogs because she was attacked by one. She wasn't hurt, but she was young and impressionable, and learned that they aren't always trustworthy. She started growling and lunging at strange dogs on leash. I was told by books/TV that the way to fix this was to correct it with a hard leash correction. I did so for years, and by the time she was a full grown adult (~2-3 years) my family considered her dangerously dog aggressive. She taught me about the unintended fallout of traditional training methods, and that using pressure/release to discourage behavior can backfire very severely.

It does sound like perhaps you would be interested in academic pursuits that focus on quantifying the behavior of animals. Most of the people on this forum are here primarily because they love dogs, not because they are interested in quantifying their behavior. Most _are_ also interested in (and very good at) quantifying the behavior of animals. They understand why dogs behave the way they do, and they understand (some on a very high level) how to change those behaviors. Understanding and changing those behaviors isn't there primary reason for being interested in those behaviors, though, for the most part- a love of dogs _is_. I would really suggest looking in to animal behavior/animal science course offerings at near bye (or perhaps not so near bye) universities. There are A LOT of choices these days, and if you're willing to move otuside whatever area you're currently in (and really interested in a career change) there are a lot of possibilities.


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## aspiringdogtrainer (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm still watching and reading replies to this thread. I don't feel like making any replies, though, because at this point I'm not really sure what to say. I agree with a lot of the advice presented. I agree that I don't know how to train dogs, and I think I wasted my money on this course.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

aspiringdogtrainer said:


> I'm still watching and reading replies to this thread. I don't feel like making any replies, though, because at this point I'm not really sure what to say. I agree with a lot of the advice presented. I agree that I don't know how to train dogs, and I think I wasted my money on this course.


I think you should follow the advice you were given a few pages back, be upfront and honest with your trainer about your feelings and what you had originally expected from the course, and ask for a refund.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I think moonstream has some pretty solid advice overall. If you're already invested in the course, and you can afford to take the hit financially, it really can't hurt anything to take it. Knowledge is never a bad thing, and you never know what other kinds of opportunities that might provide to you... might be a great way to network or talk to people with some familiarity with other wildlife-oriented pursuits. I do tend to agree that dog training specifically doesn't seem to be your calling, but life is weird and sometimes you take a circuitous path to find the right niche.


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