# Training stubborn, independent dogs?



## shelkhound (Nov 4, 2013)

Probably wasn't my wisest decision, but I have a ten-week-old Norwegian elkhound puppy. I've had dogs before, but mostly labs, shepherds, and other "intelligent, eager to please" dogs, so my training methods are kind of stumped when it comes to an intelligent, independent breed like an elkie. I've only had him for a couple of weeks now, and it's obvious he's a smart dog with a true mind of his own. He's featured in my avatar.

I would love to do agility or something with my dog, but I'm not sure if this is possible. :[ I almost regret getting this dog, I'm so afraid my training efforts will not succeed with this dog. I want to give him the best start in training possible, before we start puppy classes in January. 

Has anyone owned an elkhound before, or a similar, stubborn breed? Have you been able to do agility or something with them before? What training methods did you use, and how would I go about earning my dog's respect?


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Xena is pretty stubborn, the only way I can bribe her into doing what I ask is food  My GSD will do anything for a little praise, with Xena you can tell she's just thinking "Why should I do that? What's in it for me?" I would find a food, or a toy or a game your puppy really likes and use that as incentive


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Just figure out what makes him "go" - what he is willing to work for (food, toys, tugs, affection etc.). Just have to learn to stay a few steps ahead of your dog


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## shelkhound (Nov 4, 2013)

My issue is, there is almost nothing this dog is interested in. He's so aloof, he's more of a wallflower than anything. Usually I can get him to work for small pieces of kibble/treats before his next meal when he's most hungry.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

shelkhound said:


> My issue is, there is almost nothing this dog is interested in. He's so aloof, he's more of a wallflower than anything. Usually I can get him to work for small pieces of kibble/treats before his next meal when he's most hungry.


Start at the very bottom: Make being AROUND you rewarding, as well as training itself. Turn it into a game, and you being around him an awesome thing. Don't just train before meals, make meals the training. Doesn't even have to be a command, but handfeed him. Make sure everything awesome he gets, comes from you. Food, playtime, outside time, everything. Start with making your presence and being around you the most awesome thing ever and the way to get what he wants. *THEN* up the ante.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I have an Elkhound! He's a dream, but I have to preface that statement by the fact that I really like stubborn or super independent dogs. That also said, while I did not raise him from a baby he was always fairly easy to work with despite being a regular hound. This doesn't really sound like an Elkie problem, just a baby that needs motivation. 

Plenty of Elkies do agility, by the way!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Shelkhound, been in your shoes. Got Caeda from an ad online, wow that's a cute puppy, didn't really research the breed, until we got her home, looked up Greater Swiss Mountain Dog. OOOH boy, we saw words like stubborn, independent, belidgerant and such. Lucky for us all of those words apply to myself as well, unstoppable puppy object, meet immovable human object, luckily it didn't end in an explosion. At about the 10-20 week mark (yeah, it lasted a while) I was pretty overwhelmed and downright dejected, convinced we made a huge mistake. Now, I can say that she was one of the best things to happen to me. I wasn't the owner that she needed, but I set out to try to become the owner she needed, and I'm not positive I completely succeeded, but I do think we met in the middle quite nicely! I don't know what will work for your dog, but I can tell you a couple things that helped me dealing with our stubborn, smart, independent girl. 

First, bring out some stubborn of your own, in a constructive way. Those moments that need patience because your dog is being a pain, be patient longer than your dog can keep going, for example having to walk away while getting nipped a million times, or anything else that it may apply to. Being patient can be really hard, when you run out of patience, use stubbornness to keep going (stay calm though! not angry).

You have an independent dog, so chances are it is curious. There are lots of ways to use that, if it is curious (and not fearful) you will have a lot of fun socializing your dog. Let some exploring happen (on a leash or long line) in lots of places. When a really good reaction to new things happens, treats can happen, but make sure that in new places whenever your dog gives YOU attention, that has to be shown to be the absolute awesomest thing in the world, start this early, because if your puppy thinks that everything else is more interesting and you do nothing to suggest otherwise then control in the future can be harder (trust me on this, I screwed this one up...it has been tough). 

Independent and stubborn. FANTASTIC. If there is something your dog REALLY has to explore, or a dog it wants to meet, use that as the reward for doing something you want, even if it is just giving you a loose leash for a minute, or, even better, sitting for what it wants. 

Do lots of self-control exercises (though be careful with these depending on if and what kind of sport you want to get into, I know with Schutzhund for instance, Caeda is a little TOO controlled with some things to excel and it is pretty engrained in her). 

LOTS of exercises on keeping the critter out of trouble. I always say that recall, drop/out/give, and leave it are the most important things, this is because with Caeda I would swear that they saved her life on many occasions getting her to leave something horrid on the side of the road that could have poisoned her, come to me when her collar failed or she weaseled out of the house or give me a scary mystery object in her mouth. These seem to take longer to turn into reflexes with a more stubborn dog, but it is very worth it. Make it all fun though, seriously fun, and do it in lots of places. I now have a dog that has dropped a LIVE MOUSE in my hand when I told her to give after she caught it in the livingroom. 

Find things that your dog likes and give it an outlet, and hopefully there will be things that will be mentally stimulating as well. I found feeder toys excellent for Caeda when she was younger (now she seems to find them boring and she knows that at least once we have given in and just fed her....she has tried to out-wait us). 

Watch your dog, learn what makes it tick...is it tug, fetch, you name it. It sounds like the Norwegian Elkhound is a similar type of breed to the Greater swiss, guardian, herder, and such, basically a dog that has been bred to make some of it's own decisions. If your dog doesn't turn to you for everything, you'll need to train your dog in such a way that you feel you can trust that it will make the right choice. If you want a dog that is going to be a couch potato and velcro to you when you walk outside and not do anything without a command, this isn't the right dog for you, but if you're up to trying to face the challenge it is the absolute most rewarding experience . I've found that Caeda at least is a fantastic companion, not just a pet. I'd swear she has figured out what makes me tick just as much as I have found out about her. Our foster Dexter, as much as he is a wonderful sweet dog, he isn't stubborn, or independent. I love him to death but after my experience with Caeda, I'll take a stubborn one any day!


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

I have Finnish Spitz. I train/compete successfully in agility and obedience. In fact, my Kimma is the highest titling female Finnish Spitz in agility in the history of the breed - and we've only been trialing for a year. You just have to work HARD to make yourself VERY rewarding to work with. Here are a few tips I've learned in working with my guys that has helped:

-Finding their motivation before EACH training session is key. Sometimes that means working for food one day, working for a toy the next, working for a different toy after that, then maybe they will work best for getting to go chase that squirrel the following day.

-Sometimes it's best to let THEM choose to work with you and then make it the BEST DECISION THEY'VE EVER MADE.

-When in doubt, just end the training session even if "nothing" has been done.

-Rewarding even the smallest of accomplishments can go so far.

-Let them be dogs! Let them run, and bark, and chase, and sometimes even play keep away... Then find ways to use it in your training 

I use high value rewards (hot dogs, turkey, cheese sticks, chicken; favorite tug) when training a behavior and switch to lower and lower value rewards once the behavior is learned and proofed in multiple locations. Since you are just starting out, take your pup places and reward HEAVILY for ANY focus on you. An ear twitch in your direction when you call their name... Any eye contact... Stand still and wait for them to initiate and reward. Then you can start asking for behaviors. Play chase (they chase you) to build recall. Be goofy while you walk and change pace/direction randomly to help with LLW - they never know "exactly" where you are going and therefore are more apt to pay attention. 

I love clicker/marker training with these types of dogs. They respond to shaping VERY well. Just keep sessions short. Only 2-3 minutes to start, a few times a day. Everything else "training" should be in terms of house manners, walking nicely, recall games, and socialization/taking them to different places (as vaccinations allow).


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## shelkhound (Nov 4, 2013)

Thanks guys, I appreciate all of this!  I actually got him from a breeder, under the impression they were trainable. The breeder did not inform me of the breed's stubbornness or anything of that nature, but insisted they were trainable and what have you. A few breeders told me they were intelligent, but did not forewarn me of this, come to think of it.

I've been rewarding him for any and all desired behaviors. He listens fairly well, it's just that "elkie stubbornness" that comes out here and there that makes it difficult and often times irritating to work with. I'm almost sure he'll be the last dog of an independent breed I'll ever own, but I must say, I do enjoy his quirks quite a lot! 

I may be bothering you a lot in the future, Finkie, seeing as you have exceptional training skills for these types of breeds. I'll have to get my hands on another clicker here soon, the only issue is I quite literally live out in the middle of nowhere.


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## bower4311 (Aug 16, 2013)

Wow didn't expect to see many Elkhound owners here. I occasionally browse and happened to see this topic. My fiance and I rescued a year and a half old Elkhound two months ago. We have 3 other roommates in our apartment. It is the first dog we have ever owned on our own. It is suggested that Elkhounds aren't for first-time owners but we had to rescue this guy and we didn't know what was going to happen to him when his owner had to move for financial reasons and couldn't take the dog (single mom of 4 kids). I had a good understanding of NILF way before I owned this dog. I trained him and my roommates with the basics of NILF and I can tell you he behaves better than what I would guess is 75% of golden retrievers on this earth. Anyone here can have a trainable dog twice as obedient than my elkhound but when you compare to most people having no understanding of NILF, this dog is great. One thing that most don't recommend that worked miracles with us was a Citronella spray collar. I don't know what I would have done without it. It worked great and he barely ever wears it now. I give in to barking in the morning for food and to go outside, but it's never very early. Being in college he usually wakes me up around 9 if I'm not already up. Other than that, he gets NOTHING when he barks. It can be terrible, with the bark collar it isn't bad at all. Also, it's getting pretty late and I still haven't seen crazy shedding. Maybe it's a bit of an off year, I know one of the coat blows is every other year. We do vacuum once a day in the living room with blue carpet. 

He is truly an awesome dog, everyone who sees him says how good of a dog he is. NILF can go a long way and it won't be that bad.


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## bower4311 (Aug 16, 2013)

Also,

I just decided to start clicker training again. I had them and didn't use them much. I'm teaching him loose leash walking and he can really struggle. I figured the clicker is more distinct than my voice when he's outside with distractions. He's a very distracted dog. Sometimes he just won't look when his name is called if a squirrel is running by, etc.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

shelkhound said:


> My issue is, there is almost nothing this dog is interested in. He's so aloof, he's more of a wallflower than anything. Usually I can get him to work for small pieces of kibble/treats before his next meal when he's most hungry.


 there is your way in to build on... felt the same way coming from years of prey drive GSD's to a guardian breed who don't give you behaviors to work with lol ... I was stumped too lol... very short interest span and that is where I started.. short interactions.. OB class was not his thing... 10 minutes in he was done... but got that first 10 minutes of happy I'll do with you and then let him sleep the rest of the class.. Definitely a relationship type dog from where the willingness comes from in him.. but those little short interactions have turned into a dog with a good prey drive, loves the flirt pole, loves short little runs for obstacles. scent work... but he wont go for hours like a GSD so I don't go there.. lots of good skills to learn and rely on anytime I ask of them from just building off something very small and quick "everyone happy" and now he's asleep lol... hang in there..


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

First, I would recommend that you try not to think of him as stubborn. IMO, the way you view your dog and training sessions will color how you train and how patient you are. I don't think elkies are the most stubborn breed out there, and they are definitely trainable. Are they the easiest choice for someone looking to train high level obedience or agility? No. Can they learn regular household manners and basic obedience? Absolutely! If you're interested in dog sports I'm sure your elkie pup will be able to dabble in whatever you're interested in.

I have a somewhat stubborn breed and I agree with a lot of what GreaterSwiss said. Some days it's just about being patient longer than he can be persistent. I have built up training to be exciting for my pup and he loves to work with me and learn new things, and you can get there with your pup if you find what motivates him. I think the biggest issue is keeping their attention when they really want to be focusing on something else, or working independently. You can work through it though, and sometimes you will even appreciate having a dog who can think for himself when it counts. 

He's very young still and doesn't have any attention span yet, so cut him some slack. I would put less stock in what you read about the breed being stubborn, and focus more on motivating your pup and building that awesome relationship that will make him want to work for you.

I definitely recommend clicker or marker training as well. If you can't get your hands on a clicker right now, no worries - just use a marker word like "yes" and you can follow the same training resources. Look up Kikopup videos on YouTube. "When Pigs Fly" is also a great book for working with the stubborn breeds.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

A very good trainer and dog handler - since passed on - once told me something a long time ago that I still remember the gist of. 

If you have a dog that is "easy" to train , you can *train it*. If you have a dog that is "hard" to train, you must *train with it*.

With all the specific techniques and modern methods around - which are all fine if properly applied - that principal has stood up well.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Poly said:


> If you have a dog that is "easy" to train , you can *train it*. If you have a dog that is "hard" to train, you must *train with it*.


Yes! So very well put!!! And that is what I've loved the most about working with Caeda, it is SO much more working WITH her, rather than just showing her how to do things, it really makes me feel like we are a team rather than just a "teacher" giving instructions. Love that, though I will say (and it sounds like this elkhound puppy may be similar) shaping isn't a go to for Caeda and I at all...it just doesn't work for her.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

shelkhound said:


> Thanks guys, I appreciate all of this!  I actually got him from a breeder, under the impression they were trainable. The breeder did not inform me of the breed's stubbornness or anything of that nature, but insisted they were trainable and what have you. A few breeders told me they were intelligent, but did not forewarn me of this, come to think of it.
> 
> I've been rewarding him for any and all desired behaviors. He listens fairly well, it's just that "elkie stubbornness" that comes out here and there that makes it difficult and often times irritating to work with. I'm almost sure he'll be the last dog of an independent breed I'll ever own, but I must say, I do enjoy his quirks quite a lot!
> 
> I may be bothering you a lot in the future, Finkie, seeing as you have exceptional training skills for these types of breeds. I'll have to get my hands on another clicker here soon, the only issue is I quite literally live out in the middle of nowhere.


No problem! You can always PM me if you need any advice. And I hate to use the word stubborn - they are just REALLY good at making us feel humble


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Wow that is a great quote!


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