# A question for Dog_Shrink/Cracker please!



## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

I remember that one, or maybe both of you had said ages ago that pinning a dog, such as Cesar Milan recommends, is not good for a breed such as a Goldendoodle.

I have been told by a friend who teaches obedience and also by the breeder of Cooper, that they have always used methods such as Cesar Milan's. The breeder told me "pinning is what the mother does to make the pups behave". They both do that with their dogs and at their classes.

So now I am totally and utterly confused. In the past, I also have used those kind of tough measures with all my dogs, including my Shih-tzus. Its only recently that I have discovered that there is a totally different school of thought - i.e. positive training.

Could either of you - or anyone else for that matter - please tell me why tough training and pinning a dog such as a Goldendoodle, is not good? What kinds of things do you consider can happen if you are tough with a Goldendoodle? And are there breeds that do respond to "tough" treatments and if so why do they respond and a Doodle wouldn't?

I am totally not disagreeing with you. I am taking positive classes. I would just like to understand the reasoning behind each school of thought. 

Thanks in advance.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Purley said:


> I remember that one, or maybe both of you had said ages ago that pinning a dog, such as Cesar Milan recommends, is not good for a breed such as a Goldendoodle.
> 
> I have been told by a friend who teaches obedience and also by the breeder of Cooper, that they have always used methods such as Cesar Milan's. The breeder told me "pinning is what the mother does to make the pups behave". They both do that with their dogs and at their classes.
> 
> ...


Pinning a dog should not be done to ANY breed whatsoever. True, dogs do it to each other SOMETIMES. Rarely. Very very rarely. But are you a dog? Do you think you can pin a dog with half the precision, body language, and intent as another dog? Nope. Trying to pretend you're a dog is just as bad as trying to pretend the dog is a human. You are a human, your dog is a dog, and your dog knows it. As such, you need to bridge the barrier in communication with a language you both can understand. That's the basis of clicker training.

No dog responds "better" to tougher training. They respond differently, maybe. But certainly not better. I don't know about you, but if someone tried to train me with a whip and with their fists, I'd probably end up doing what they say. But I won't be happy, and I certainly won't enjoy it. I'm exaggerating greatly to make a point, because that's not universal. Many dogs, I'm sure, learn to tolerate their handlers rough actions.

Next, Cesar Milan says himself that 1) Nobody should copy his training. 2) He is not a trainer, but a behaviorist. Now, I'm not going to argue either of these. Let's assume for a minute that both of those are true. Why would a TRAINER be using a method meant for Behavior Rehabiliation? That fact alone, should tell you they don't really know what they are talking about.

Cesar's methods can all be defined by the Learning Theory. All learning, actually, can be defined by it. It is universal to all living things. However, Cesar's methods are not used based on knowledge of how all things learn. It's based on pretending you are a dog. 

It might "work" but it's not half as precise, clear, and easily understandable as clicker training.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Purley said:


> Could either of you - or anyone else for that matter - please tell me why tough training and pinning a dog such as a Goldendoodle, is not good? What kinds of things do you consider can happen if you are tough with a Goldendoodle? And are there breeds that do respond to "tough" treatments and if so why do they respond and a Doodle wouldn't?
> 
> I am totally not disagreeing with you. I am taking positive classes. I would just like to understand the reasoning behind each school of thought.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I would be interested in this perspective also as I have observed a few Goldendoodles and Labradoodles being sided/pinned with some great results/resolution for some specific issues.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I would be interested in this perspective also as I have observed a few Goldendoodles and Labradoodles being sided/pinned with some great results.


For who? The owner or the dog? I have a itsy bitsy feeling the dog didn't appreciate it so much.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

RBark said:


> For who? The owner or the dog? I have a itsy bitsy feeling the dog didn't appreciate it so much.


I am quite sure/positive it was stressful in the beginning but then a calm dog came through at the end of session and the dog/s clearly had a different attitude and understanding. No doubt about it.

No more muzzles and drugs needed at the vets office or when getting the nails clipped/grooming. The vets who worked with these dogs commented that they could not believe it in the beginning untill they experienced this resolution with other dogs.

I should mention that previous attempts at conditioning the dog/s to except grrooming/nail clipping/handling had failed after paying 2 or 3 skilled professionals in a few cases to address the the issues with incentive based approaches. 

I am also not saying that pinning/siding a dog will work in all cases or should be attempted. I have certainly observed failures even by so call experts at it let alone those who have/had no clue what they were doing.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I am quite surepositive it was stressful in the beginning but then a clam dog calm through at the end of session and the dog clearly had a different attitude and understanding. No more muzzles and drugs needed at the vets office or when getting the nails clipped. I should mention that previous attempts at conditioning the dog/s to except grrooming/nail clipping had failed after paying 2 or 3 skilled professionals to address the the issues with incentive based approaches. I am also not saying that pinning/siding a dog will work in all cases or should be attempted.


You'll have to define a calm dog. Most people confuse a dog that shut down for a dog that is calm. Most dogs that I saw when I watched and participated in obedience classes, eventually shut down and let the owners do whatever they want to them. That's not a healthy state of mind for a dog. Nor is it a desirable trait.

And saying that positive trained failed after 2 or 3 professionals failed doesn't mean much of anything. Just like only 1 out of 10000 correction-based dog trainers actually know what they are doing, only 1 out of 10000 positive trainers actually know what they are doing. The only difference is the other 9999 aren't hurting the dog.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

RBark said:


> You'll have to define a calm dog. Most people confuse a dog that shut down for a dog that is calm. Most dogs that I saw when I watched and participated in obedience classes, eventually shut down and let the owners do whatever they want to them. That's not a healthy state of mind for a dog. Nor is it a desirable trait.
> 
> And saying that positive trained failed after 2 or 3 professionals failed doesn't mean much of anything. Just like only 1 out of 10000 correction-based dog trainers actually know what they are doing, only 1 out of 10000 positive trainers actually know what they are doing. The only difference is the other 9999 aren't hurting the dog.


Such are the semantics..I think I will pass on further comment.

I am not talking about a temporary basis. The dog/s never had to be sided again and we are talking several years. Some people do not have the resources or time to find the real trainer when the trainers they spent good money on were advertised and had the reputation and CERTIFICATION of being one of those expert trainers.

I do understand your point however as I am always thinking...concerning failed resolutions...." I wish I could have worked with that xxxxx dog because I think "I" could have found a resolution" Incentive based or complusion based approaches aside. When I clip my dogs nails I would rather/ desire that they stay clam because they want to rather than because they have to, eitherway it has to happen.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

***Must resist anteater post***

I alpha roll my dog ALL the time...she very much enjoys the belly rub. 

The difference between the context in my example and our humanity in general is whether the dog is willingly rolled or forcibly rolled. Forcibly rolled dogs ARE threatened dogs, and threatened dogs need more of our humanity...they have teeth ya know. Willingly rolled dogs ARE "conditioned" dogs, and conditioned dogs find such an experience pleasurable/acceptable. 

Some don't care to weigh the dog's conditioning or their humanity, and this is exactly when learned helplessness may occur.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

And then there is the reality in that some of my vet friends tell about the dogs they terminate/murder because the human refuses to use compulsion conditioning  I enjoy sitting in from time to time and watching the dogs go to sleep. NO STRESS AT ALL For the dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sparkle said:


> And then there is the reality in that some of my vet friends tell about the dogs they terminate/murder because the human refuses to use compulsion conditioning  I enjoy sitting in from time to time and watching the dogs go to sleep. NO STRESS AT ALL For the dog.


I find this comment sick and twisted, but I don't suspect you meant it as such.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

You have to understand that Cesar Millan, like any good dog trainer, does not go and forcibly alpha roll every dog for doing something wrong. A dog steals food from the counter, does Millan go and alpha roll this dog? No, he teaches it manners by body blocking and telling the dog that the counter belongs to the human.

There is nothing wrong with being assertive, but there is a difference between assertive and violent. Millan's alpha roll is not the violent pinning that some people describe. He only uses this technique on dogs that have severe aggression issues, dogs that have the urge to kill. He never forcibly pins the dog down, it's generally a 50/50 cooperation where the dog complies to what he's asking. He's not pinning the dog to show it who's bigger and stronger, he's asking the dog to lay on its side to just relax, to give up all the negative energy and just trust that everything will be okay.

That said, the alpha roll technique is not for everyone. If you have Millan's skill and understanding, that's fantastic. For the rest of us who don't know how to do it, you probably shouldn't try it. 

About not doing it to a goldendoodle, the breed doesn't really matter. All techniques are about the individual dog.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I find this comment sick and twisted, but I don't suspect you meant it as such.


I find it sickening also ...having worked in rescues and observing/knowing of so many dogs getting EUTH"D.


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## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

This is the email I got from Cooper's breeder.

Morning Liz; None of my Doodles are hyper and all are very obedient, I am getting raving reports of how quick they are too learn...maybe Cooper got too babied when he was so sick...have you ever read Cesar Millan's books? He is a no nonsense dog trainer that pins them down like the mother does when educating her pups....I have used this method my whole life and it really shows them that they have to listen..

Of course, I have not seen any of her dogs. I suppose she is telling the truth when she says they are obedient. Cooper didn't get babied at all. He got sick within days of my son getting him and once he was better nobody babied him.

I honestly think I would prefer my dogs to do what I wanted because they wanted to - not because they were afraid of the consequences. However, all the dogs that I have ever trained have been quite calm and seemed reasonably willing to learn. With Cooper its hard to get his attention because all he is interested in - given half the chance - is leaping at the other dogs. He is definitely IN NO WAY aggresive. 

The only time he got at all aggressive was when my oldest shih-tzu, Mickey, who likes to cause trouble, got in Cooper's face and then Cooper got hold of him with his front legs and squashed him on the floor. Mickey growled and snapped, Cooper growled and snapped and I think it could have been a dog fight if I hadn't got hold of Cooper's leash.

So, I guess my question is - does the positive kind of training work on a dog that is hyper? If I had Cooper on his own, he would be easier to train. At the class - not so much!

Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Oh My!

I see too many issues here and would not know where to start except to say that you take a chance in experimenting with siding a dog let alone in deciding when to do so. I honestly feel that pinning your dog for the issues that you describe especially with what your breeder supposedly said is very problematic. You can try it if you dare but I would first make a reasonable effort to exhaust other approaches incentive based or complusion based regardless. I am not sure what I think about what (in the manner) your breeder said. That was scarey for me.

I am sure others can give you more detailed suggestions than I am capbable at the moment.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

First off let me say that I do NOT endorse Caesar or his techniques. he is just a person that knows dog "stuff" and isn't even certified in animal behavior or canine training. I would LOVE to see al his outtakes where he got his ass bit for trying to roll an unmuzzled dog, and you certainly never see any follow up on his "worst clients...

Next... the alpha roll and the theory of "forcing" a dog to be respectful of you by implimenting those kind of harsh techniques is absurd. The most reliable way to train your dog is through POSITIVE reinforcement and positive association that you are a FIRM FAIR leader who insists on self control and the punishment is simply that he doesnt get the pleasure of your company if he is going to misbehave. To most dogs that is the worst thing they can imagine. Dogs aren't loyal to us because we feed them, they are loyal to us because we grant them companionship. 

As much as people would like to debate the whole pack theory doesn't exist in our domesticated dogs I highly disagree, and ANY dog that is trained by using methods that play on those primitive instincts will be a lot more responsive than a dog trained by harsh alpha techniques. I train using pack leadership ideals and in the 17 years I've been implimenting them can count the number of failures on one hand. This does not mean being brutal to your dog... it means taking their willingness to serve and their desire for leadership and using them to your advantage. Not every dog is cut out to be a leader and to those it can be VERY stressful when they have to assume the leadership roll because their human dropped the ball. Some one HAS to be in charge. 

Back to the alpha roll... like another poster said we are trying to impliment CANINE boduy language and simulate a response that is usually canine to canine based not human to canine based. The unexperienced person has NO IDEA what and when it is appropriate to impliment those rolls, whereas another dog does. Most people can not pick up on the subtle nuances of canine body language well enough to communicate using similar language. Mother dogs DO NOT roll their pups when they misbehave until it is the absolute last straw and all her other language has been ignored. First thing mom does is mouth their neck... then apply pressure, then a light shake, then if all else fails they might do a roll. Personally I see more rolling between pups then I ever see from a mother to a pup. Pups KNOW mom is dominant and there is no need for her to be unfair by exerting something that is already known. 

This question brings to mind a current client... a husky/mamaute mix... He was trained employing harsh techinques... shock collars, K-9 police dog tactics, alpha rolls and the sort... he is a stressed out emotional wreck even now almost 6 years later. When you employ those kind of harsh techniques to someone who sees you as the leader who should be fair it breaks trust and wreaks emotional havoc on those poor dogs. ANYTHING that gets the dog working for you puts you in a leadership position with out harsh techniques and BUILDS trust rather than breaks it. Obedience drills, constructive games, canine competition events... all get a dog working for you. A goldendoodle... 2 breeds that are meant to work closely with man, who look to you for direction will be ruined by implimenting such harsh techniques. 

I can go on and on and on about this whole debate but I'm gonna stop now because I can already see that I'm kinda all over the place with this. Bottom line... DON'T DO IT... if you have a problem with respect, TRAIN.. correct and redirect, praise don't punish... dogs work for the anticipation of the reward and it should NEVER be out of fear of reprocussion.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sparkle said:


> I find it sickening also ...having worked in rescues and observing/knowing of so many dogs getting EUTH"D.


Ya, I don't see how these comments follow in this discussion, but, okay.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Purley said:


> *I honestly think I would prefer my dogs to do what I wanted because they wanted to - not because they were afraid of the consequences.* However, all the dogs that I have ever trained have been quite calm and seemed reasonably willing to learn. With Cooper its hard to get his attention because all he is interested in - given half the chance - is leaping at the other dogs. He is definitely IN NO WAY aggresive.


That's kind of the key. A lot of methods 'work' in the sense that they will get you a response, maybe even the one you are looking for - but there can be a definite difference in why and how the dog is preforming.

Now my first suggestion would be to limit the distractions. When you are training him, it should be just you and Cooper. No other dogs present to pull his attention away from the task.

Another tip would be to really tire him out before training. You need to at least take the edge of his energy beforehand otherwise you're going to be combating that 'gotta run now!' urge the entire session. So before you start, take him out and run awhile. Throw the ball or whatever gets him going and spend a good chunk of time doing so. Once he's had that opportunity, he should mellowed out some better prepared to focus on you and your commands. 



> So, I guess my question is - does the positive kind of training work on a dog that is hyper? If I had Cooper on his own, he would be easier to train. At the class - not so much!


Yep, definitely. It's just a matter of finding the the right approach for that individual dog. 

When you are training at home, you can slowly begin introducing distractions back into the environment once he has the commands close to mastered. Start with something like one dog or a person making some kind of distracting noise. Practice keeping his focus in the environment and build up his ability to respond with that one distraction. Once you've done that you can continue adding distractions until he is consistently ignoring them for your commands. 

I think right now Cooper is just way overstimulated when you are training him and it's preventing and of the 'learning' from really occurring.



> Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!


Not really...or at least not in the classic sense. Dakota responds to me because I control her food, her play time, her outings, things she enjoys. I don't know if that amounts to respect and her believing I'm the alpha, but she knows if she does what I ask that good things will possibly follow. I haven't had to use anything by positive methods to accomplish this.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> A goldendoodle... 2 breeds that are meant to work closely with man, who look to you for direction will be ruined by implimenting such harsh techniques.
> 
> I can go on and on and on about this whole debate but I'm gonna stop now because I can already see that I'm kinda all over the place with this. Bottom line... DON'T DO IT... if you have a problem with respect, TRAIN.. correct and redirect, praise don't punish... dogs work for the anticipation of the reward and it should NEVER be out of fear of reprocussion.


OH MY

I would have a hard time (and I am sure others ) in believing that my GSD, Lab` Border Collie's, Aussie, Cattle dog ,ect are ruined and have no respect for me...OH MY

Sometimes these dogs just work themselves regardless of what the human desires.... I have seen it...

I wonder why this approach (incentive based only)does not always work for us humans???

so many absolutes to debate.

Start the rollacoaster


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

sparkle said:


> Such are the semantics..I think I will pass on further comment.
> 
> I am not talking about a temporary basis. The dog/s never had to be sided again and we are talking several years. Some people do not have the resources or time to find the real trainer when the trainers they spent good money on were advertised and had the reputation and CERTIFICATION of being one of those expert trainers.
> 
> I do understand your point however as I am always thinking...concerning failed resolutions...." I wish I could have worked with that xxxxx dog because I think "I" could have found a resolution" Incentive based or complusion based approaches aside. When I clip my dogs nails I would rather/ desire that they stay clam because they want to rather than because they have to, eitherway it has to happen.


I would dare say that the reason pinning the dog appears to work for "years" is because it also appears to be the first thing done to shut the dog down. Then in the years after that, they continue correction-based training. So the further compliance would be due to the continued training, not the pinning of the dog.



sparkle said:


> And then there is the reality in that some of my vet friends tell about the dogs they terminate/murder because the human refuses to use compulsion conditioning  I enjoy sitting in from time to time and watching the dogs go to sleep. NO STRESS AT ALL For the dog.


Irrelevant, sick, and disturbing. I have seen dogs that were abused into submission in rescue multiple times, and when surrendered, never able to trust a human being again. My Horo was like that, and I was not given enough time to help her, and I was not competent enough to help her. Complusion training would have done nothing for her. Using that invalid logic as a justification is sick.



Purley said:


> This is the email I got from Cooper's breeder.
> 
> Morning Liz; None of my Doodles are hyper and all are very obedient, I am getting raving reports of how quick they are too learn...maybe Cooper got too babied when he was so sick...have you ever read Cesar Millan's books? He is a no nonsense dog trainer that pins them down like the mother does when educating her pups....I have used this method my whole life and it really shows them that they have to listen..


That he calls him a dog trainer, and says he pins the dogs down in any frequency, it absurbd and shows his own lack of understanding of dog behavior. I would attribute his dog's eagerness to learn to the fact it's a Poodle and a Golden, two of the most impressive dogs in the obedience world, than to his tatics.



> Of course, I have not seen any of her dogs. I suppose she is telling the truth when she says they are obedient. Cooper didn't get babied at all. He got sick within days of my son getting him and once he was better nobody babied him.


There's nothing wrong with babying your dog. Encouraging bad behaviors, yes, that's not good. But babying them? Nope, that's perfectly fine. And her dogs are probably obedient- out of fear of consequence, not because they find it pleasurable.



> I honestly think I would prefer my dogs to do what I wanted because they wanted to - not because they were afraid of the consequences. However, all the dogs that I have ever trained have been quite calm and seemed reasonably willing to learn. With Cooper its hard to get his attention because all he is interested in - given half the chance - is leaping at the other dogs. He is definitely IN NO WAY aggresive.


This is a training issue. When a dog is at the point of leaping at another dog, he is WAY over threshold. Think about it as when you are completely emotional. When your emotions get the best of you, are you able to focus well? Reason well? Likely not. I know when I'm angry, I'm completely illogical. Same as when I'm way too excited and eager. Dogs are the same. The training involved is desensitizing. If your dog is even reacting at all to another dog, you are too close to it to do any training.



> The only time he got at all aggressive was when my oldest shih-tzu, Mickey, who likes to cause trouble, got in Cooper's face and then Cooper got hold of him with his front legs and squashed him on the floor. Mickey growled and snapped, Cooper growled and snapped and I think it could have been a dog fight if I hadn't got hold of Cooper's leash.


Dog fights don't mean dog aggression. Just like people do, dogs have to learn each other's boundaries. The more well socialized a dog is, the more "clear" his signals will be. Growling and posturing is normal part of dog socialization. A growl is just a way to say "hey, back off!" Most fights don't end with any blood at all, except maybe some scrapes. And they, too, are just ways to say "I really did not like what you did. Better not do it again."

It doesn't mean you need to encourage it, or not stop it, but recognizing it as a natural part of dog behavior helps understanding of what's going on.



> So, I guess my question is - does the positive kind of training work on a dog that is hyper? If I had Cooper on his own, he would be easier to train. At the class - not so much!


A overstimulated dog will always be hard to train, no matter the method. The compulsion based method involves shutting down a hyper dog, and possibly into what Curbside mentioned, learned helplessness. A positive based method involves teaching the dog to be calm in situations like these, through reward based socialization.



> Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!


No, the dog doesn't need to see you as an Alpha dog. Like I said, humans are not dogs. When I had several dogs, Ollie would be what some people define as the alpha dog. All my other dogs deferred to him. However, Ollie did not see himself as my leader. How does this heirarchy work? Am I the extra-Alpha, and he is the regular Alpha? Way too confusing. Best thing to do is toss out any idea of Alpha.

You are your dog's companion. If you want your companion to get along with you, both human or dog, compromise is needed. You teach him what you want, and he will teach you what he enjoys. He will teach you he enjoys running, and you teach him to not run too far. He teaches you he enjoys fetch, you teach him that you enjoy it when he puts the ball at your feet and sits for the fetch. You give, and receive. It's not war, it's not politics. It's just a friendship.

The dog is not capable of respect. He is, however, capable of not knowing what you want. Just because you think he does, doesn't make it so. Most issues of "lack of respect" "trying to be leader" are just matters of confusion, not dominance.



Dog_Shrink said:


> ...snip...


Sorta agree, sorta disagree. Leadership implies that it's all about what you want. If the dog doesn't do what you want, he is challenging leadership. I disagree with that. Perhaps that's not your intent. But my dogs have a lot of say in my methods.



sparkle said:


> OH MY
> 
> I would have a hard time (and I am sure others ) in believing that my GSD, Lab` Border Collie's, Aussie, Cattle dog ,ect are ruined and have no respect for me...OH MY
> 
> ...


Incentive-based training surely works for humans. It's a matter of priorities. A guy who doesn't care about money, is not going to be incited by money. Does that mean it doesn't work? No, it just means you're not finding and utilizing the right reward.

And the fact dogs are extraordinarily able to adapt to our many very confusing behaviors, doesn't make it ok.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

sparkle said:


> OH MY
> 
> I would have a hard time (and I am sure others ) in believing that my GSD, Lab` Border Collie's, Aussie, Cattle dog ,ect are ruined and have no respect for me...OH MY


Maybe it was a pretty broad generalization but what is meant is that ANY sensitive dog will be ruined by employing such harsh techniques. A dog who is only in need of a harh word for correction insted of a physical one... overcorrection is often the leading way down the path to ruining a dog, and that trust a dog has in you. Our job as their leader is to guide them, educate them, and KEEP THEM SAFE... not just from the threats of the outside world but often those things that harm the most come from home. 

Ok this just iisn't coming out right...

"Sorta agree, sorta disagree. Leadership implies that it's all about what you want. If the dog doesn't do what you want, he is challenging leadership. I disagree with that. Perhaps that's not your intent. But my dogs have a lot of say in my methods."

When I say leadership.. a leader is only as good as the team behind them and how much they're willing to work for you. This is where the fair part comes in. If you're a dictator then it's exacty as it implies a D**k... That in my mind is NOT a leader... a leader I guess would be better summed up as a teacher, a director, a choreographer, a cop, all rolled into one. Compromise and flexability are all parts of good leadership... I serve my dogs just as much as they serve me... it is a give and take but in the end yes they do serve me, because they want to not because they are forced to. 

Like others have said... a dog who is pinned isn't offering "calm submissive" but they have emotionally shut down... NO learning can happen when a dog shuts down.


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## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

All this is really useful and interesting. 

It is specially interesting to me because I do belong to the kennel club. I have taken an agility class for years - non-competitive - just for fun - with my youngest shih-tzu and in that class we reward them all the time for doing things right.

However the instructor of that class also instructs obedience. He has a Dobe and he was one of the people who told me that I should be pinning Cooper into submission. It was because of this and because of what I read on this board that I decided that if I was going to take Cooper to a class, it would be a positive reinforcement class.

However, it turns out that the woman teaching the class (she has border collies and Belgians) lost the lease on her last building and only managed to find her present building after some difficulty. It is VERY small. You couldn't do agility in the building. Its about 1/8 the size of the kennel club building and so we are forced into being very close together when training. I think Cooper would be easier to train if he wasn't jeek by jowl with the mini dachshund to the right and the pug to the left. Of course, we could move and be in between the Golden and the Dobe -- but I can't imagine that would be any better!!

If I have a criticism of the class its just that - the room is WAY too small for eight dogs. I guess the rent is probably such that it would not be economical for her to take four dogs. Catch 22 I suppose.

There is another school that believes in positive training. Perhaps I will contact them and see how big their training room is - and go there next time. 

I have a super book by Gwen Bailey. She is an English trainer of the positive kind. 

http://www.dogbehaviour.com/

I am reading How to Train your Super Dog. Everything we are learning in the class - and more - is in that book. I am going to buy one for my son.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Just an FYI... This was an article posted in another forum I visit... It pretty much sums up your whole question with out all the rambling.

Aversive Training Techniques and Fall-out

by Rita Martinez, Clickin Canines

All too frequently, I receive a call from a dog owner who explains that,” out of the blue” his dog has started a new behavior that looks aggressive. Often, this behavior results from fear or stress, but growls, barks, bared teeth, and lunges all carry the same concerns for an owner. How does such behavior arise in a dog who until now seemed friendly and happy?

Let’s first take a look at dogs’ learning style. Since we and our dogs don’t share a verbal language, dogs learn through association. Humans in their pre-language months learn this way also. Simply put, learning by association means that the dog takes in the environmental set-up when he is learning a new behavior or experiencing a specific event. 

Aversive training is based on “correcting” (punishing) a mistake to eliminate the behavior. Here is a simple scenario: 
An owner/trainer is walking with the dog, doing ‘heeling’ work. The dog – who is probably wearing a choke-chain, slip lead, or electronic collar – is walking along quite well. A woman and small child walk toward them. The dog sees them and, because he is friendly, he moves a bit forward from heel position. The owner/trainer immediately gives a correction (a collar pop or shock) to let the dog know he strayed from position. 

In this scenario, the dog is focused on the woman and child and is also enjoying a walk. The association he makes when the owner/trainer gives the painful correction is twofold: (1) that walking is sometimes less than fun, and (2) a woman and child in the vicinity means something bad will happen. That’s associative learning. Couple aversive training with associative learning, and the dog now learns that something in his environment that he found pleasant is now stressful and to be feared. That’s how dogs develop reactive behaviors out of the blue. The owner/trainer thought with the human mind, but the dog learned with a canine mind: through association.

A study in Germany measured the cortisol (a stress hormone) levels in dogs trained with an electronic collar. They received a shock for a mistake while in a room. When they first re-entered the room 1 month later, the dog’s cortisol levels shot up to 300% of normal when going into that room again. A single shock and 1 month later, the association was still powerful!!

In contrast, positive-reinforcement training creates motivation for the dog to offer the behavior that the trainer wants. The dog and the trainer are both enjoying the learning experience and the dog is actually taking part in the process. 

Aversive training works fast; the problem is that you often train an association quite different from the one you intended! Training with positive reinforcement can seem slow by comparison. When you use aversive training, however, fallout continues to bring new and unwelcome behaviors that you will then need to address – a process that can take a very long time and that may not work at all with aversive methods. Because aversive training methods work through fear, they train the dog to fear something. Not only are you likely to teach him to fear the wrong things, but also you are by definition increasing his overall fearfulness and stress. Fear and stress lead to growls, barks, bared teeth, and lunges. That’s fallout, and the risk it too great to make aversive methods worthwhile.


Rita Martinez, CPDT


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

And another...

Critics Challenge 'Dog Whisperer' Methods

By Lynne Peeples, Scienceline
posted: 12 November 2009 10:05 am ET

JonBee jumps up at Cesar Millan, his sharp teeth snapping repeatedly. Millan calmly yanks on the leash and pulls the wolf-like Korean Jindo away. This continues for over a minute, with Millan’s face remaining undisturbed and JonBee’s owners gasping on the other side of the living room. Finally, the dog shows a moment of weakness. Millan quickly pins him to the floor and rolls him onto his side. Millan’s calmness seems to be reflected in the dog now lying frozen in submission. 

Every Friday night, troubled American dogs undergo a seemingly miraculous transformation on national television. The magician is Cesar Millan, better known as the “Dog Whisperer.” He is the current face of dog training, and he has brought “dominance theory,” an age-old training technique, back into canine conversation and practice. 

To understand how to control a dog’s behavior, according to Millan, one needs to look at the hierarchy of wolf packs. Domestic dogowners must confidently carry the title of “pack leader” and assume power over their pets. 

But many dog trainers and behavior experts criticize the show, advocating a gentler approach to training that replaces coercion and physical behavior corrections with food rewards and other forms of positive reinforcement. They point to new studies that have placed the two popular dog-training methods head-to-head and almost universally shown positive training to be more successful than punitive methods in reducing aggression and disobedience. 

Millan may have the ratings, they argue, but purely positive trainers have the science. 

No more crying wolf

Millan’s concept of dominance is based on an old understanding of the behavior of wolves. In the 1960s, researchers observed that wolves formed large packs in which certain individuals beat out others to earn “top dog” status. These were called “alphas.” Millan contends that a dog displaying aggression is trying to establish dominance and attain alpha status, much like its ancestors. He advises humans to take on this position themselves, forcefully if necessary, to keep the dog in a submissive role. 

Dog trainers whose practices are grounded in these concepts, such as the late Bill Koehler and Captain Arthur Haggerty, have dominated the business for most of the past half-century. But as Dave Mech, an expert on wolf behavior at the University of Minnesota, points out, the early wolf research — much of it his own — was done on animals living in captivity. 

Mech has been studying wolves for 50 years now, yet only over the past decade has he gotten a clear picture of these animals in their natural habitats. And what he’s found is far from the domineering behavior popularized by Millan. “In the wild it works just like it does in the human family,” says Mech. “They don’t have to fight to get to the top. When they mature and find a mate they are at the top.” In other words, wolves don't need to play the “alpha” game to win. 

In the 1980s, around the same time that our understanding of wolves began to change, positive dog-training methods slowly emerged from the fringes and grew in popularity. A tug-of-war continues today between dog trainers practicing predominantly positive reinforcement and those using punishment-based techniques. 

Nicholas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University, is one of the leading proponents of positive training methods. He believes the source of most bad behavior, especially owner-directed aggression, is mistrust and recommends rebuilding a dog’s trust by “making sure that the dog understands that all good things in life come only and obviously from you.” To get those things — whether food or basic attention — the dog must learn to please you first. 

But others see these techniques as little more than pampering borne out of lax and inappropriate attitudes toward pets that have recently come into vogue. “In the last ten to fifteen years it’s become, ‘don’t ever say ‘No’ to your dog; don’t ever punish dogs,’” says Babette Haggerty, who is carrying on her father’s dominance-based teaching at Haggerty’s School for Dogs in Manhattan. “I think people are coddling dogs more than ever before.” 

But in 2004, “The Dog Whisperer” — Millan's doggy psych 101 — premiered on the National Geographic Channel, and the momentum mounting in the positive direction was stymied. “In America, we [had begun] using human psychology on dogs,” Millan says in an email. “What was needed was for humans to learn dog psychology.” 

Perils of punishment

Many veterinary behaviorists believe punishment-based techniques, like those seen on the show, could come back to bite dog owners. The National Geographic Channel even posts a warning on the screen during each episode: “Do not attempt these techniques yourself without consulting a professional.” 

According to a paper in the May 2009 issue of the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research, attempts to assert dominance over a dog can increase a dog’s aggression. Researchers from the University of Bristol in the United Kingdom studied dogs in a shelter for six months, while also reanalyzing data from previous studies of feral dogs. Their findings support those of the Mech at the University of Minnesota: dogs don’t fight to get to the top of a “pack.” Rather, violence appears to be copycat behavior — something borne of nurture, not nature. 

In another recent study, around 25 percent of owners using confrontational training techniques reported aggressive responses from their dogs. “The source of dog aggression has nothing to do with social hierarchy, but it does, in fact, have to do with fear,” says Meghan Herron, a veterinarian at The Ohio State University and lead author of the study published in the January 2009 issue of Applied Animal Behavior Science. “These dogs are acting aggressively as a response to fear.” 

Dogs react physiologically to stress and fear in the same way people do, with hormones. Two 2008 studies out of Hungary and Japan showed, respectively, that concentrations of the stress hormone cortisol increased in dogs that were strictly disciplined and that levels were linked to elevation of aggressive behavior. What’s more, an Irish study found that physically or verbally reprimanding a dog with a history of biting people was one of the significant predictors of a subsequent bite. The results were published in April 2008 in Applied Animal Behavior Science.

“[All these studies] confirm what many of us have said for a long time,” says Pat Miller, owner of Peaceable Paws dog and puppy training in Hagerstown, Maryland. “If you use aggression in training your dog, you’re likely to elicit aggression back.” 

Paybacks of positive reinforcement

Before practicing professionally as a dog trainer, Jolanta Benal of Brooklyn, New York, learned the difference between positive and punitive methods personally. 

Her dog, Mugsy, had an attraction to men in uniform. Whether they were wearing UPS brown or U.S. Postal Service blue, Benal's bulldog would lunge at them on the street. So she hired a highly recommended dog trainer to try to correct this behavior. 

“He would set Mugsy up to do offending behavior, and then throw a can full of pennies at the dog,” she says. “It was a traditional old school technique. And it worked to suppress the problem behavior — at least in the moment.” Mugsy’s unhealthy obsession with the postal workers, however, did not go away. Even if he didn’t always jump at the UPS guy on a walk-by, says Benal, he wasn’t happy to see him either. 

Benal then traded in for a new trainer that brought chicken instead of coins. As the man in uniform approached, Benal was now instructed to distract Mugsy by giving him the treat. And it worked. After several times, the dog would look to her in expectation, rather than towards the uniform-clad men in alarm. “For the last year of his life, he was an angel,” says Benal. “It was amazing the changes it brought.” 

Millan argues that using food to coax dogs may be impractical: “It can result in an addiction to treats or an overweight dog,” he says in an email. However, Dodman of Tufts University explains that trainers only give food at the beginning of training. After a period of time, owners should reward intermittently, reinforcing the response. “If every time you played the lottery you won money, then the excitement wouldn’t be there anymore,” says Dodman. “The thrill for the dog is ‘Will I get a treat this time?’” Back-aches from stooping low to feed a dog, or the added cost of extra chicken or doggy treats, he believes, are far less dreadful than the anxiety and altered relationships caused by the punitive alternative. 

Dodman has some data to back him up. In February 2004, a paper in Animal Welfare by Elly Hiby and colleagues at the University of Bristol compared the relative effectiveness of the positive and punitive methods for the first time. The dogs became more obedient the more they were trained using rewards. When they were punished, on the other hand, the only significant change was a corresponding rise in the number of bad behaviors. 

A series of more recent papers also support Dodman’s theory and Hiby’s results. A study published in the October 2008 issue of Journal of Veterinary Behavior found that positive reinforcement led to the lowest average scores for fear and attention-seeking behaviors, while aggression scores were higher in dogs of owners who used punishment. Another 2008 study, this one published in Applied Animal Behavior Science, found that positive training methods resulted in better performances than punishment for Belgian military dog handlers. 

Cont...


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Cont...

Bridging the differences in dogma

It’s hard to argue that the slow, patient techniques used in positive reinforcement would elicit the same dramatic moments seen on Cesar Millan’s show. “There’s a big difference between looking at behavior as a ‘Stop that’ versus a ‘Here’s what I want,’” says Bruce Blumberg, a professor of dog psychology at the Harvard Extension School. “Positive reinforcement is a different mindset. And it’s one that doesn’t work quite as well on TV.” 

Dodman is one of many people who have asked the National Geographic Channel to discontinue “The Dog Whisperer,” consistently one of the highest-rated shows on the network. The American Humane Association issued a press statement in 2006 asking for a cancellation because of what they suggested were abusive techniques used by Millan. More recently, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior issued a position statement in which it expresses concern “with the recent reemergence of dominance theory and forcing dogs and other animals into submission as a means of preventing and correcting behaviors.” 

Millan defends his methods, asserting they “use the minimum force necessary to prevent or correct a problem.” According to the dog rehabilitator, he can “redirect the behavior of most of my pack with just my body language, eye contact and energy.” He points to the “thousands upon thousands of letters” he receives from viewers touting “miracles” of restored relationships and saved dogs. “All I want is what is best for the animal,” Millan says. 

Despite the controversy, there is a lot that everyone agrees on. Both sides of the training spectrum teach that a lack of discipline or structure is not conducive to a well-behaved dog. “Dogs need direction and boundaries, just like human relationships,” says Haggerty, the trainer from the School for Dogs in Manhattan, which uses dominance theory. “If dogs don’t know what the boundaries are, they will wreak havoc.” 
How a dog owner projects those boundaries is also important. “You have to be calm, you have to be clear, you have to be consistent, and you have to make sure you meet your pet’s needs for other things: exercise, play, social interaction,” says Herron of The Ohio State University. 

So what does an owner do when a calm and structured environment still breeds a misfit pup like JonBee? Should it be the leash and hand that redirects the dog, or poultry and patience? Current science favors the chicken flavor. But whichever strategy you choose, everyone agrees that the timing must be precise. It is very difficult for a dog to make an appropriate association and learn from the reprimand or reward otherwise. 

Of course, if you take Blumberg’s Harvard class, he'll tell you, “If your timing is lousy using positive reinforcement, the worst thing that happens is you get a fat dog.”

I actually saw this episode and was amazed at how stupidly he reacted and expecting those people to do the same, put themselves in THAT kind of harms way in my mind was not only reckless ut irresponsible.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I am going to ignore the most of this thread, just because I'm too tired to "debate" with our twinkling friend.

Purley, 
On alpha rolling a dog:
Dogs are a social species (like many others) and in order to live in a society there has to be civility and compromise in order to work cooperatively. This does not mean that aggression or discord does not occur but that ways to handle it with the least amount of damage come into play. Social species TEND to be cooperative, fighting wastes energy that can be better turned to hunting, scavenging, mating and play. There is also the risk of injury, and in species that live in the wild, injury can mean death. 
When you see a dog go to another dog, SNARK at him and see the other dog roll, it can SEEM like the first dog forced it, but really the submissive dog OFFERED it as a way of keeping the peace. For a dog to truly pin a dog AGGRESSIVELY involves an intent to injure the other dog. So...transfer this to us clumsy, badly coordinated humans. If we were to aggressively PIN our dogs, forcing them into a submissive position what do you think the message is here? That we INTEND TO INJURE THEM. Fear and respect are not the same thing...so an alpha roll MAY stop the behaviour we intended to stop (as punishment CAN be effective in reducing a behaviour) but what have we done to our relationship with our dog?
A conditioned "settle" started as a puppy is a very different thing as the behaviour is positively conditioned and so is NOT taken by the animal as an intent to injure.
Now, regarding being firm. 
Firm is FAIR enforcement of rules (and they are our rules, not the dog's). I am a softy, but am far from "soft". Priveleges and rewards are removed if the behaviour is inappropriate and the dogs wait, sit, down or otherwise behave calmly before they get anything from me, attention, rewards, play etc. But it is important to understand that we have to TEACH them these rules...for they are HUMAN rules, not canine rules. 
I have seen dogs that were out of control, aggressive or reactive etc. respond very well to PROPERLY taught positive reinforcement. 

If anyone alpha rolled my dog they would have to deal with MY wild side.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Cracker said:


> I am going to ignore the most of this thread, just because I'm too tired to "debate" with our twinkling friend.
> 
> Purley,
> On alpha rolling a dog:
> ...


Glad I read all the way to the end of this thread, I was going to post a reply very similar to this one. 

These are wise words.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

OH MY

Everyone certainly has a opinion.

...from the twinkling ant eater


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Because aversive training methods work through fear, they train the dog to fear something. Not only are you likely to teach him to fear the wrong things, but also you are by definition increasing his overall fearfulness and stress. Fear and stress lead to growls, barks, bared teeth, and lunges. That’s fallout, and the risk it too great to make aversive methods worthwhile.


That would be very bad...if it were true.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

But it is true...avoidance of punishment (compliance) is based in fear of the punishment itself..no? Otherwise..why would it work like it does?


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker said:


> But it is true...avoidance of punishment (compliance) is based in fear of the punishment itself..no? Otherwise..why would it work like it does?


Thing is...based on who's agenda we are considering...it just does not work in that there is no value or benefit in punishment.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

sparkle said:


> Thing is...based on who's agenda we are considering...it just does not work in that there is no value or benefit in punishment.


Nobody said there's NO value in punishment. I, myself, despite being a very strictly R+ trainer, use an e-collar based on R- methods for recall, a life-saving cue, on one of my dogs.


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## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

With regard to punishment, I can certainly tell with Cooper that any attention is good. It doesnt matter if its BAD attention ..... its still attention. So therefore I would think that it would follow that if all he gets is yelled at for not doing the right thing, then surely he will continue to be bad just so he gets attention ---- won't he??

I have read all the posts and I can certainly see that whereas the human thinks the result will be one way --- there is a good chance that the dog will not see things in the same light, as in the example of being punished by having the chain collar snapped, for lunging at a child. Before this was pointed out to me, I would definitely have thought - the dog needs a snap to correct him and from that correction the result will be that he will walk by my side. But I can now see how, from the dog's point of view, it might very well suggest that the child is a bad thing because it caused a pain in the neck for the dog!

Of course, not everyone will agree. But its a free world and people are entitled to disagree!


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Purley said:


> With regard to punishment, I can certainly tell with Cooper that any attention is good. It doesnt matter if its BAD attention ..... its still attention. So therefore I would think that it would follow that if all he gets is yelled at for not doing the right thing, then surely he will continue to be bad just so he gets attention ---- won't he??
> 
> I have read all the posts and I can certainly see that whereas the human thinks the result will be one way --- there is a good chance that the dog will not see things in the same light, as in the example of being punished by having the chain collar snapped, for lunging at a child. Before this was pointed out to me, I would definitely have thought - the dog needs a snap to correct him and from that correction the result will be that he will walk by my side. But I can now see how, from the dog's point of view, it might very well suggest that the child is a bad thing because it caused a pain in the neck for the dog!
> 
> Of course, not everyone will agree. But its a free world and people are entitled to disagree!


Have you taught "look at me"?

This is a good starting command for teaching attention. There are a lot of stickies in the training forum for teaching attention and drive control. The book, "Control Unleashed" is very good in this regard.

But if you're interested in the basis of how your dog thinks, Patricia McConnell's "Other End of the Leash" and "For the Love of a Dog" are both quick, enjoyable reads with amazing insight into your relationship with your dog.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I hate alpha rolling or any similar kind of physical contact with a dog its weird IMO




sparkle said:


> And then there is the reality in that some of my vet friends tell about the dogs they terminate/murder because the human refuses to use compulsion conditioning  I enjoy sitting in from time to time and watching the dogs go to sleep. NO STRESS AT ALL For the dog.


This ^...WTF! just plain strange and disturbing.
I have been a vet tech and the part you "enjoy" was (along with crap pay) one of the reasons i left,seeing dogs die everyday then going home to my own and knowing it would happen eventually was depressing. Also the owners crying around their dead pet was alot to deal with daily especially when many of those dogs i administered meds and gave food too everyday along with walking them and getting to know them.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Cracker said:


> But it is true...avoidance of punishment (compliance) is based in fear of the punishment itself..no? Otherwise..why would it work like it does?


But it would only increase fear and stress if the dog continued the behavior and continued receiving punishment. Assuming reasonable training protocols (i.e., communicating to the dog what behaviors will result in punishment or reward) they just don't behave that way. Unless they are mentally defective.

A human who repeatedly gets nailed for DWI may very well blame "the [email protected]#$% cops" for their trouble, and grow to despise police officers. I actually know a few people like that. Humans are much more clever when it comes to outsmarting themselves. A dog will just avoid doing the thing that results in unpleasant consequences.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Mr Pooch said:


> I hate alpha rolling or any similar kind of physical contact with a dog its weird IMO
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh yes ...So you know what it is like trying to hit the vein as accurately as possible and then monitoring the heart beat till it fades to nothing. One of my vet friends put up literature conerning her services that her vet practice would no longer perform Euths unless it could be established that the dogs health was such that termination is warrented. It was not worth the business.

Such joy.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Forum Advisory: please remember to calibrate your sarcasmometers.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> But it would only increase fear and stress if the dog continued the behavior and continued receiving punishment. Assuming reasonable training protocols (i.e., communicating to the dog what behaviors will result in punishment or reward) they just don't behave that way. Unless they are mentally defective.
> 
> A human who repeatedly gets nailed for DWI may very well blame "the [email protected]#$% cops" for their trouble, and grow to despise police officers. I actually know a few people like that. Humans are much more clever when it comes to outsmarting themselves. A dog will just avoid doing the thing that results in unpleasant consequences.


Assuming done properly, yes, punishment won't occur with association. A dog that associates the choke correction with the child he sees has not been taught the correction properly. I don't think that's what Cracker meant to argue. Done properly, a P+ based method will work. But that's not under debate.



sparkle said:


> oh yes ...So you know what it is like trying to hit the vein as accurately as possible and then monitoring the heart beat till it fades to nothing.
> 
> Such joy.


Quit your childish tantrum. Most of us here have had to put our dog to sleep at some point, and your idiocy is not helping.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

RBark said:


> Quit your childish tantrum. Most of us here have had to put our dog to sleep at some point, and your idiocy is not helping.


You of all people should know and have learned by know that such a aversive approach will not act as a correction in my case.



Why is it that people who against compulsion based training feel a need to resort to name calling? 

That would make for a intersting intelligent adult conversation would it not?


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Is anyone else kind of confused?
This discussion sort of took a weird turn


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I like Milk Duds.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

sparkle said:


> You of all people should know that that aversive approach will not act as a correction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because you are not my dog, not my friend, and I don't care about helping you. Repeatedly talking about how joyful putting dogs to sleep is, sarcasm or not, is cruel and childish.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Not going to jump in to argue with what is right/wrong etc. I will say this, as a trainer from the dark-side I have never in 50 years had to alpha roll a dog, never found a need for that type of treatment. The golden-doodle breeder should be placed on a deserted island far far away from people and dogs.


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## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> I like Milk Duds.


This just strikes me REALLY funny. 

I'm new here and have lots of opinions, but nothing to add to this heated exchange. Disturbing comments from purposefully antagonistic people like Sparkle really make me not want to come back here.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

DukesMom said:


> This just strikes me REALLY funny.
> 
> I'm new here and have lots of opinions, but nothing to add to this heated exchange. Disturbing comments from purposefully antagonistic people like Sparkle really make me not want to come back here.


Can't take credit for it. It's inspired by the occasional "I like turtles" comment from another DF member, which cracks me up every time I see it.

It does get a little intense sometimes but most people mean well. You learn to ignore the ones who don't and enjoy the outrageousness of the just plain crazy ones.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Why not all of you that find my comments disturbing simply click on the REPORT icon and have me banned.. It would make it easier on everyone to include me.. Just use some force conditioning on me .

I think what I said about people who would rather euth a dog then use compulsion conditioning is a truism regardless of how insulting it might seem. 

You can silence me but the truth runs rampant even though some cannot or do not want to admit it.

I deal with it everyday. I have people tell me this this all the time. My Vet friends try and talk many people out of it. Some don't even bother anymore.

In order not to freak people out ..this is all I will say ..regardless..so pile on if you think it will change the facts.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sparkle said:


> Why not all of you that find my comments disturbing simply click on the REPORT icon and have me banned..











You ask and you shall receive.

Now on to more important things...


winniec777 said:


> I like Milk Duds.


They're okay, but darn it, I prefer to eat my dulce without a jack hammer. 

Goobers on the other hand...


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

OOOH I ignored Twinkle and now she's gone...EXTINCTION DOES WORK! LOL...thanks to CP of course. LOL

Marsh Muppet...I agree that punishment USED CORRECTLY does work, the unfortunate truth though is many, if not most, average dog owners do not have the timing and ability to apply a correction so that it does not have to be "nagging" nor excessive force. Since many cannot do it correctly, the odds of fallout are very high. Better to apply R+ with these folks...there is MUCH less to mess up, though no training method is completely perfect. 

My preference, ESPECIALLY on puppies is R+, P-, management and a lot of patience and understanding. 

This part is not addressed to MM, just to be clear! LOL

I have no agenda against 'coercion', though our banned friend seems to think I do, but that doesn't mean I can't hope that it fades away into a more patient and gentle approach for the dogs. Either way, recommending any sort of correction based work without an experienced AND capable trainer in person to attend is risking a lot.

I find it interesting to see that the use correction or euth the dog thing came up..this seems to be a popular statement from people like Twinkle, I find it disingenuous at the very least. My findings after being a staff member at a vet was not seeing people RATHER euth than punish...it was most often, if a behaviour problem was that severe, that punishment WAS used and used badly and they ended up handler aggressive due to the misapplication.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> A human who repeatedly gets nailed for DWI may very well blame "the [email protected]#$% cops" for their trouble, and grow to despise police officers. I actually know a few people like that. Humans are much more clever when it comes to outsmarting themselves. * A dog will just avoid doing the thing that results in unpleasant consequences*.


Not true... when you have a dog that lives in a constant state of hyper like cooper is then like purley said any attention is good attention good bad or otherwise. If you have an attention starved dog then they will do WHATEVER it takes to get you to respond to them whether it's with a beating or a cookie makes no nevermind to them. THIS I have seen.



Marsh Muppet said:


> That would be very bad...if it were true.


This is true... and I have also seen this. Take for example the dog who is self taught how to use an electric fence. he runs to the line, gets zapped as a child walks by... associates the child with the fact that he got zapped. Take dog away from property... sees child... acts assertively remembering the correction from when he was in his own yard. I have a dog that lives across the street from me with this problem and have seen this several times as well. Dogs don't reason... they don't think like that "oh I got zapped because I got too close to the boundary". They way they put 2 and 2 together doesn't always equal logic...



wvasko said:


> Not going to jump in to argue with what is right/wrong etc. I will say this, as a trainer from the dark-side I have never in 50 years had to alpha roll a dog, never found a need for that type of treatment. The golden-doodle breeder should be placed on a deserted island far far away from people and dogs.


Amen dinosaur man  God I love your way of thinking... I'd love to pick your brain for a day


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Purley said:


> Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!


No, I don't agree that my dogs have to see my as the Alpha dog. I am not a dog. Plain and simple. So why would my dogs ever see me as such?

I don't claim to be a dog trainer AT ALL and am only speaking from the experience of training my two dogs from 8 week old puppies. I used positive training methods, clicker training for "tricks" and positive reinforcement for desired behaviours.

Without exaggerating, I can teach my dog a new trick within 5 minutes by using clicker training. Now, not EVERY trick is learned that quickly, but a lot are and it's an incredible thing to experience.

Do my dogs respect me/my authority? Absolutely! And they love me too, and are not afraid of me.

I can say, with 100% honesty, that I have only ever swatted Corona (my 2.5yr old) 3 times. These were cases where I was at fault.. *I* lost my temper. Did the dog learn anything from it? NO!

Anywho.. that's just my 2 cents.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

winniec777 said:


> I like Milk Duds.


I prefer M&M's myself...and I'm glad Twinkle is gone too...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Not true... when you have a dog that lives in a constant state of hyper like cooper is then like purley said any attention is good attention good bad or otherwise. If you have an attention starved dog then they will do WHATEVER it takes to get you to respond to them whether it's with a beating or a cookie makes no nevermind to them. THIS I have seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shrink
That would indeed be very slim picking. 

I think that some of the dogs that I have trained through the years must have been from the twilight zone, because self preservation taught me a long time ago that the very last place in the world I wanted to be was on the ground trying to alpha roll a 100 lb (name your breed) dog from the twilight zone. With some of them I actually thought being on a ladder would be better physically for me. (at least I would live with all my fingers/hands intact) I am probably 4 or 5 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier than Milan (I'm not pro or con him) I've had the physical tools necessary to do the roll job but not the mental attitude to get in and out without getting hurt. He*l I'm still trying to perfect the installation of a muzzle on a large dog that's main goal in life is trying to bite me. 

I actually think if I did an alpha roll on a small dog I would just be a bully. 

This still is not an argument against alpha rolls, it's just not the way I approached the problem.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Regarding associations dogs make:

Would you rather a dog that won't misbehave because you happen to be there and can apply a correction, but who still thinks that kid/cat etc is something to grab, or a dog that has such positive associations with kid/cat that even if you are not there, he doesn't WANT to grab the kid/cat.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Purley said:


> With regard to punishment, I can certainly tell with Cooper that any attention is good. It doesnt matter if its BAD attention ..... its still attention. So therefore I would think that it would follow that if all he gets is yelled at for not doing the right thing, then surely he will continue to be bad just so he gets attention ---- won't he??


Yup. I have a dog that doesn't care... as long as she is the center of the Universe. There is a behavior tht she did and I finally went to corrections and it was not until the correction came with no "pre" warning and no after "positives" that she quit. She was actually doing the behavior to get the warning and then get the attention after. Two times with no pre or post for this ONE behavior on thie ONE dog and that was the end of it. 

It was, and I must emphasize this, AFTER I had tried pos. Reinf. to the end of my ability. I will also say that a great Pos. Reinf. trainer might never have ahd to use the correction. I do not know. 



Purley said:


> I have read all the posts and I can certainly see that whereas the human thinks the result will be one way --- there is a good chance that the dog will not see things in the same light, as in the example of being punished by having the chain collar snapped, for lunging at a child. Before this was pointed out to me, I would definitely have thought - the dog needs a snap to correct him and from that correction the result will be that he will walk by my side. But I can now see how, from the dog's point of view, it might very well suggest that the child is a bad thing because it caused a pain in the neck for the dog!


This is exactly true and it is exactly what CAN happen. I know of a dog who no longer walks this earth because the trainer E Collared him over going after other dogs on leash. The result was the dog escalated IMMEDIATELY from being threatening to biting and ended up being a true danger and he was PTS'd. 



wvasko said:


> Not going to jump in to argue with what is right/wrong etc. I will say this, as a trainer from the dark-side I have never in 50 years had to alpha roll a dog, never found a need for that type of treatment. The golden-doodle breeder should be placed on a deserted island far far away from people and dogs.


For years and a few dogs I was all about correction based training. At least in today's context. I hnever heard of siding or Alpha rolling a dog until I watch Cesar Milan on Nat Geo. I never alpha rolled a dog for aversive training purposes. Seemed like a good way to get bitten and scratched by the dog's feet. 

I now use mostly Pos. Reinf. methods and find even less reason to alpha roll a dog (and I had no reason before).


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## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

Cooper isn't aggressive. He is just "nuts". He wants to play with the other dogs, but as neither my grandddaughter nor I are very tall or very strong - and being on the other end of a leash to even a medium sized dog such as Cooper - its very hard on the hands, even with a wide webbing leash!!

To change the subject slightly - I have three shih-tzus. The middle one, Sam, is Mr Congeniality. However, I have problems getting him to come in. When I got Tyson, Tyson likes to eat poop - and now Sam does it too. I have a big yard and when I call Tyson - he amost always comes running because he will often get a treat when he gets in. Sam on the other hand - he will just "thumb his nose" at me if he is out there eating poop! Even if i say "Want a cookie?" in an excited voice, Sam will keep on doing what he's doing. You can see the look on his face "to heck with you - I'm finishing what I'm doing". 

So why, when Sam knows he would probably get a reward for coming in - does he often just ignore me? And when he finally does come racing in -- does he get no treat for ignoring me the first time -- or get a treat for finally coming in without my having to go out there and make him come???


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I've never given much thought to the training value of siding a dog, though I suppose it has some. I've done it as a way to keep an over excited dog from hurting me, himself, or somebody else. I will entertain the argument that it may not be the best management technique, but it was the one I had at the time. Whatev....

One thing I will say is that if you are going to do something that may start a brawl, you'd best be able to end it--ideally with no one getting injured. Best not to rely on your ability to bluff your way through.

As relates to the OP (now slightly OT), I know very well about how Cooper responds to good attention/bad attention. My dog is just like him. As much as it seems like the craziness is impossible to manage, that gonzo attitude is the best thing you have going for you. Once you learn how to key into it, he will do absolutely anything to be part of the action. In some ways, they are the easiest dogs to reach.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Purley said:


> Cooper isn't aggressive. He is just "nuts". He wants to play with the other dogs, but as neither my grandddaughter nor I are very tall or very strong - and being on the other end of a leash to even a medium sized dog such as Cooper - its very hard on the hands, even with a wide webbing leash!!
> 
> To change the subject slightly - I have three shih-tzus. The middle one, Sam, is Mr Congeniality. However, I have problems getting him to come in. When I got Tyson, Tyson likes to eat poop - and now Sam does it too. I have a big yard and when I call Tyson - he amost always comes running because he will often get a treat when he gets in. Sam on the other hand - he will just "thumb his nose" at me if he is out there eating poop! Even if i say "Want a cookie?" in an excited voice, Sam will keep on doing what he's doing. You can see the look on his face "to heck with you - I'm finishing what I'm doing".
> 
> So why, when Sam knows he would probably get a reward for coming in - does he often just ignore me? And when he finally does come racing in -- does he get no treat for ignoring me the first time -- or get a treat for finally coming in without my having to go out there and make him come???


It's a matter of your dog's priorities. The reward you have is obviously not nearly as good as the poo he's eating. So you have two choices. You can up the reward (is there anything other than poo that he likes more than the treat you're having? How about a better treat? Most dogs are crazy for a piece of chicken, liver, or Natural Balance Roll). Or you can control the environment. In this case, it's picking up poop immediately. Annoying, sure, but it's just temporary management.

Or you can teach him the recall, and keep him on leash in the backyard at all times. Eventually through reinforcement, coming to you will be better than poop. Though your self esteem might take a deadly blow. I know I'd be crying in a corner if my dog liked poop better than me.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> One thing I will say is that if you are going to do something that may start a brawl, you'd best be able to end it--ideally with no one getting injured. Best not to rely on your ability to bluff your way through.


That's what I'm talking about, if the dog is big enough to roll mentally and physically, that whatever trainer thinks rolling is proper, much hurt can follow.


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## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

RBark said:


> It's a matter of your dog's priorities. The reward you have is obviously not nearly as good as the poo he's eating. So you have two choices. You can up the reward (is there anything other than poo that he likes more than the treat you're having? How about a better treat? Most dogs are crazy for a piece of chicken, liver, or Natural Balance Roll). Or you can control the environment. In this case, it's picking up poop immediately. Annoying, sure, but it's just temporary management.


Generally I do pick it up immediately. The only time I don't is when its 12 below or 30 below and I am in my housecoat!! And when he's way down the garden - how is he going to know if I have the usual Rollover or something really yummy??


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

bauxer said:


> I am not sure but I do not think that I have ever seen a Alpha roll could someone point me to a video on the internet that shows some real Alpha Rolls


Here's one that shows quite clearly how _not_ to do it. It gives a good idea of what's being attempted, but...jeeze...keep yer face away from the pointy bits.






Here's another from a guy of rather dubious character.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

The first vid was demonstrated on a very calm and sweet dog. If you tried that maneuver on a genuine "red zone" case, you could lose part of your favorite face.

The second vid is a joke.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> The first vid was demonstrated on a very calm and sweet dog. If you tried that maneuver on a genuine "red zone" case, you could lose part of your favorite face.


It doesn't take much imagination to figure out how a red-zone dog would react to something like that. Parts is parts, I suppose -- they'd be scraping pieces of him off the patio furniture for sure.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> The first vid was demonstrated on a very calm and sweet dog. If you tried that maneuver on a genuine "red zone" case, you could lose part of your favorite face.
> 
> The second vid is a joke.


ROFL, my dog is calm and sweet, wouldn't bite him, but she would fight him and panic if he tried that on her.

On the other hand, the second vid was an actual alpha roll, the dog willingly rolling over for the boss. Mine will do that and enjoy the belly rub that comes with it.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I should post a video of me alpha rolling my knothead. He will exhibit (completely fake) challenges that include teeth-baring and body slamming me. As soon as I touch the back of his neck, however, he immediately flops on the ground with a thud. Often as not, he leaves his butt sticking in the air and does his patented hop with his hind legs. He's so weird.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I should post a video of me alpha rolling my knothead. He will exhibit (completely fake) challenges that include teeth-baring and body slamming me. As soon as I touch the back of his neck, however, he immediately flops on the ground with a thud. Often as not, he leaves his butt sticking in the air and does his patented hop with his hind legs. He's so weird.


Hmmm, the kin of my sister's Golden "Nacho-Girl" must of had relations with your Muppet's kin. She's a weird one like this too.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> The first vid was demonstrated on a very calm and sweet dog. If you tried that maneuver on a genuine "red zone" case, you could lose part of your favorite face.


There is a saying..I'm trying to remember how it goes:

If your dog will let you roll him he doesn't need it....
If he needs it you aint got a hope in hell to accomplish it..lol.

(paraphrased cuz I just can't remember it exactly..but I think the point is clear) LOL


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

For a dog that took so long to even lay down without her feet under her, Hope is to the point now she rolls over for a belly rub half the time I approach her.

It's starting to get a little annoying, but boy does she love her belly rubs. She looks disappointed if I scratch her ear and pet her instead.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

TxRider said:


> For a dog that took so long to even lay down without her feet under her, Hope is to the point now she rolls over for a belly rub half the time I approach her.
> 
> It's starting to get a little annoying, but boy does she love her belly rubs. She looks disappointed if I scratch her ear and pet her instead.


I can understand the annoyance. Mona does this to me too, and for bonus points, she urinates on the carpet. Nothing says love like dog pee on the carpets.

Though, to be fair, she hasn't done it so far today. So I guess she's getting used to me. Urinating, that is. She still rolls on her back every time I make the slightest approach towards her.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Cracker said:


> There is a saying..I'm trying to remember how it goes:
> 
> If your dog will let you roll him he doesn't need it....
> If he needs it you aint got a hope in hell to accomplish it..lol.
> ...


That's what I was trying to explain it took me 2 paragraphs to say what you said in 26 words.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I have rolled dogs in the past, mainly to protect myself.

If you know the technique you can drop any dog in an eye blink.

I reach under the dog for the offside front leg with my left hand. I take the leg about halfway between the pastern and the elbow. At the same time I push on the near shoulder at the base of the neck, and pull the off foreleg rapidly out from under the dog, dropping it to the floor. At the moment the dog hits the floor, my right hand goes on the neck right behind the ears to pin the dog.

I do not and would not use this technique for any reason except to protect myself from injury.


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## Alex927 (Nov 2, 2009)

I have nothing helpful to add to this thread (sorry OP!)

I just wanted to say that I knew that Sparkle was a quack of sorts (based on the way she asnwered my thread as well as a few others I've read) but refrained from saying it as I wasn't exactly sure (cuz I'm so new to this whole thing). 

I'm kinda glad for the banning (that she unwisely asked for). Hopefully it was a perma-ban though. haha =)


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

RBark said:


> It's a matter of your dog's priorities. The reward you have is obviously not nearly as good as the poo he's eating. So you have two choices. You can up the reward (is there anything other than poo that he likes more than the treat you're having? How about a better treat? Most dogs are crazy for a piece of chicken, liver, or Natural Balance Roll). Or you can control the environment. In this case, it's picking up poop immediately. Annoying, sure, but it's just temporary management.
> 
> Or you can teach him the recall, and keep him on leash in the backyard at all times. Eventually through reinforcement, coming to you will be better than poop. Though your self esteem might take a deadly blow. I know I'd be crying in a corner if my dog liked poop better than me.


My dog likes poop better than me


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> You ask and you shall receive.
> 
> Ya know Curb.. I like you more and more each day.
> 
> ...


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## Brownie&Ruby (Nov 24, 2009)

I agree with Red. Alpha rolling should never be used unless it's absolutely necessary...kinda like kicking a man in the stuff - not unless they're threatening your life. Alpha rolling can do damage, because it's not a "nice" sweet process like that bozo was showing. It's dropping a dog, for all intents and purposes, on their back and shoulders. There are other ways to get the dog's attention. My boxer mix came from the shelter when he was already a year old, and he was hyper!!! The best thing he responds to when he won't listen is a firm voice or possibly a gentle (GENTLE) tug on his collar. Break the concentration on the bad habits, then reward him when he pays attention to you. The "look at me" command is super-wonderfully-awesome! Teach it! You'll thank yourself a million times over!

And BTW - I love Reese's Pieces!!


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