# Is my pomeranian too big for her breed?



## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

We got her when she was four months old. When she was 5 months old she weighed 7.2 lbs and was 10 inches tall from floor to shoulder, and 18 inches long from nose to base of her tail. Today she is almost 9 months old and weighs 9.4 lbs, is 20.5 inchs from nose to base of tail and 12.5 inches from floor to shoulder. Is she too big for her breed? nd how much more will she grow if any more?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Assuming your dog is not overweight, and assuming you're wondering about the 'breed standards' set down by the AKC, your dog would be considered too big for her breed.
Here is a link to AKC Pom. standards:
http://www.akc.org/breeds/pomeranian/

At 9 months I believe your dog is liable to grow a bit more. I've HEARD that smaller breeds can fully mature in 1 year but I'm not familiar with small breed dogs in general. The only thing I can say is from personal experience, my 75lb lab mix stopped growing taller when he was around 1 year, but up until he was 1 and a half or so he started filling out more and looking less lanky. 

But unless you're worried about breeding/showing your dog, I don't see how size would matter as long as your dog is happy and healthy  
Hope this helps!


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

The reason I was wondering is because I believe she may be a mix (which I dont mine what so ever, I've fallen in love with her). I'm curious by nature and am interested in finding out if she is a mix or not. I was told she was a pure bred Pomeranian but ever since I got her I doubted it. Her coat as a pup wasn't fluffy or long it was actually quite short in close to her. Now as she is much older her coat still isn't like that of a Pom. It's not puffy and and long on her upper back while the rest is shorter. I will put some pictures of her up soon so someone could attempt to help me. She's much taller and larger the other Pomeranians I have seen. She is not at all over weight. She can sprint much faster then most Poms and is much more loyal and listens to commands much faster and learns quite fast. Her bark is not high piteched of that of a Pomeranian but more thick or deeper.


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## Deeken (Feb 14, 2011)

I believe there are a lot of pomeranians out there who are too big for breed standard. Unless you purchased her as a show/breeding prospect, its not something I would worry about.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

Maybe you have a throwback.  From what I understand, they were originally 20-30 lb dogs before breeders began dwarfing them down for some reason...

Jen


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Just to save some time, this is what a quality purebred Pom looks like









Your dog is indeed too large.


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## JohnJ (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe you have a Spitz? Did you get this dog from a breeder?


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## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

A lot of people here are good at identifying if you throw up some pictures. There's also some home dna kits for dogs you can try but they're not always so accurate I heard, but might give you something of an indication. There's a possibility she might not even be a pom, but there are many similar looking breeds (that are bit lesser known in the US so a lot of people mistake them for a Pom). She is bigger than standard, but of course that can just happen. My last pug was for sure all pug, but she was 6lbs heavier and a few inches taller than most the pugs we see at the park. 

If you didn't get her from a reputable breeder and just someone who sells puppies ("backyard breeder" as theyre called) there is a possibility she could be mixed with something too as some of those people just dont care about quality. My moms first dog she didn't listen to me and called a pennysaver ad for a "maltese and poodle mix" accident litter than my breeder recommendation. Her dog isn't even close to looking like a maltese or a poodle and looks strongly like a Brittany Spaniel mixed with a few things. She is the best dog though and has filled the void of me "leaving the nest". My mom even jokes around saying stuff like "watch your sister". Haha. 

I guess in the end what I'm saying is even if you spent a pretty penny for a "perfect" pomeranian and didnt get that on looks, you might have been jipped in money and might feel lied to, but when you have a dog you click with and love then it's worth every bit and then some!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

AKC does not set the standards, the national breed clubs do. And by that standard yes your to is too big. But that being said Poms used to be bigger dogs (up to 30 lbs), and many BYB bred dogs are bigger because they can hold more puppies safely, it is not uncommon to find a bigger pom, they are usually of the fox faced, flat coated variety as well. There is a user on the Q&A site I am on that has a larger fox-face, flat coated Pom. So your dog could very well be full pom but is just out of standard.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

I love my Roxie to death. I'm just curious of what she is to details so I can answer people when they ask haha. If I say she's a Pom people are like really she's so big. And if I say i don't know it makes me look bad in my opinion. I have pictures on my phone but don't know how to post them on here dice I'm writing from my iPhone lol. I bought her at a pert shop and have papers for her.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

If you post pictures of her, we should be able to determine if she's an oversized Pom or a mixed breed.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

roxie92 said:


> I love my Roxie to death. I'm just curious of what she is to details so I can answer people when they ask haha. If I say she's a Pom people are like really she's so big. And if I say i don't know it makes me look bad in my opinion. I have pictures on my phone but don't know how to post them on here dice I'm writing from my iPhone lol. I bought her at a pert shop and have papers for her.


You bought her at a pet shop? Well that explains why she doesn't look like the standard pom, because she is from a puppy mill/BYB. Like I said those generally won't look like the cute little fluff balls you see at dog shows, they will be the bigger fox faced flat coated ones. 

But it is hard to say if she is really purebred or just a mix, because there have been mixes passed off as purebred in pet stores.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

I'll post pictures tomorrow once I'm home since I'm at work right now and writing from my iPhone.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

okay here are some pictures. The first two are from when we first got her, she was around 4 months in those pictures. The second two are about a month ago when she just turned 8 months. Her fur has gotten longer but not by much and is still flat. And she did gain some weight and height since those two.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I am no expert, but she doesn't look like a purebred pom to me.

She is darn cute, though!


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## Polywoggy (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm no expert either, but I see a Pom x Sheltie. Behaviourally, does she exhibit traits from another group such as herding?
Very cute.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

Polywoggy said:


> I'm no expert either, but I see a Pom x Sheltie. Behaviourally, does she exhibit traits from another group such as herding?
> Very cute.


Hm. Would herding be considered if she chases basketballs and barks at them untill they are all together? or would that be considered just playing? She also chases birds and squirrels in the yard if she is told to "GET THEM" even though she was never taught this she just does it when they are pointed to.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

A Pomeranian herding would not be a tell tale sign of there being another breed in the mix. Pomeranians used to be herders, throw backs often exhibit herding instincts. 

That pup looks just like any other fox faced, flat coated BYB bred Pom I have ever seen. The dog is a throwback to it's older spitz days.


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## Polywoggy (Mar 7, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Pomeranians used to be herders, throw backs often exhibit herding instincts.


 Really? Never knew that. I actually prefer this foxy look to to the show type. Sometimes I don't understand the direction that is taken in a breed. This has made me much more interested in Poms.

Edit: http://www.akc.org/breeds/pomeranian/history.cfm
Huh. There's a working dog in those fuzzy little lap-warmers!


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Simply because a dog is larger than an AKC standard does not mean they are not purebred. Lots of Yorkies grow to be over 7lbs and are still purebred, even though the standard is 7lbs or less. A Yorkie may also have a "cottony" coat which is not standard but still be purebred. Things happen *shrug* Genes can be a funny thing. Although from your picture, I will say your dog doesn't really look like a purebred Pom... have you cut her hair or is it naturally like that? Actually, I think your girl is way cuter than the show Pom pic posted above, hehe.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Not sure about whether she's purebred or not, by oh my is she cute! Much cuter than any of the "correct" poms I've seen, which to me are very exaggerated.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

She doesn't look like a purebred Pomeranian to me. If she is a purebred Pom, she way off the standard of how they should look. The most important thing is that you love her and hopefully won't buy from a pet store again!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Polywoggy said:


> Really? Never knew that. I actually prefer this foxy look to to the show type. Sometimes I don't understand the direction that is taken in a breed.


Yeah, I much prefer the "BYB type" Pekes, too (flatter coat, not-as-flat face). My mom wants a Peke someday, but she wants a Peke like she had when she was younger, she doesn't even recognize the Pekes in dog shows. . .I'm sure there are good breeders producing the more moderate Pekes, although of course they won't be showing. Probably be hard to find anyway.

It's hard to tell if she's a purebred not bred to show standards, or if she's a mix. She's a cutie, though!


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Looks like a BYB'd Pomeranian to me. I prefer the foxier poms anyhow.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There was a girl with a baby-faced (show type) Pom in my training class back when I had Willow in 4H. I didn't even know what she was, lol. I prefer the foxier types, too.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Just looks like a poorly bred pom to me. She is young, it will take a few years to get (if she does)a full coat.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Simply because a dog is larger than an AKC standard does not mean they are not purebred. Lots of Yorkies grow to be over 7lbs and are still purebred, even though the standard is 7lbs or less. A Yorkie may also have a "cottony" coat which is not standard but still be purebred. Things happen *shrug* Genes can be a funny thing. Although from your picture, I will say your dog doesn't really look like a purebred Pom... have you cut her hair or is it naturally like that? Actually, I think your girl is way cuter than the show Pom pic posted above, hehe.


Nope that is her natural coat, I have never given her a hair cut.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

Looks like 98% of the BYB Poms I see. Most vaguely resemble the standard


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## buttonlady (Mar 2, 2011)

:wave:She's definitely a cutie pie! I love Poms, they are such fun little dogs.

I have three Poms, two of them are discarded females from a puppy mill; neither fits the breed standard, are over sized (9 and 12 LBS), one has a long foxy face and the other's face looks more like a Chihuahua. Both of them supposedly had "papers", and I'm sure the puppies they produced were sold as purebred Pomeranians. Both girls are absolutely wonderful, however, sweet and smart, and very grateful to be living out their retirement in comfort. These poor little dogs became surplus property when they got too old to produce new litters; I hope that the puppies they produced have all found loving homes with people who don't care that their little dogs aren't picture-perfect Poms, and appreciate the loving temperaments they inherited from their moms.

Unless you plan on showing or *shudder* breeding your dog, I don't think breed standards matter; having a good dog who complements your family should be the only criteria. 

My third Pom does fit the breed standard size, and is a gorgeous little dog; however, he has luxating patellas, poor teeth, and had an undescended testicle; I'm sure he has other faults that a reputable breeder would spot instantly that I'm not knowledgeable enough to recognize. He attracts a lot of attention due to his size and looks, including offers to breed him from random people who mention they have a female Pom. Amazingly, none of these people ask about his pedigree or registration, or his temperament and only stop when I tell them he's neutered; makes me wonder how many "purebred" dogs are the outcome of these kinds of arrangements. 

Take good care of your little girl, she will repay your devotion a hundred-fold; I know mine have, and I love them all regardless of their "faults".


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

She's a sweetheart, whatever her lineage.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

Would it be okay to call her a mittlespitz instead? I did a lot of research in the pat days and have found that her height and weight and also appearance is much more similar to a mittlespitz then to the dwarfspitz also known as the pomeranian. Would that be okay?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Um....no. That's misrepresenting her breed. You shouldn't be calling a dog something it's not. It's disingenuous...and, IMO, a bit tacky.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

OP, I would just go with what she is, a Pom. She looks like a lot of Poms I've fostered and in fact until about 5 years ago I THOUGHT that was what Poms looked like because they were really the only way I saw them.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Um....no. That's misrepresenting her breed. You shouldn't be calling a dog something it's not. It's disingenuous...and, IMO, a bit tacky.


Thats not what i was trying to do? How can you tell the differance between a "throwback pomeranian" and a mittlespitz? Roxie (my dog) looks closer to a mittlespotz IMO.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

roxie92 said:


> Thats not what i was trying to do? How can you tell the differance between a "throwback pomeranian" and a mittlespitz? Roxie (my dog) looks closer to a mittlespotz IMO.


They're completely different breeds... your dog is a Pomeranian.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

roxie92 said:


> Thats not what i was trying to do? How can you tell the differance between a "throwback pomeranian" and a mittlespitz? Roxie (my dog) looks closer to a mittlespotz IMO.


Short answer: Your dog is a Pomeranian because her parents were Poms. Middlespitz are a different (though related) breed.

Admittedly, with the Spitzes it's a little confusing than most others because the history is a little more jumbled. Especially if you start considering the state of affairs outside of the US. But, essentially breeds are determined by lineage, not appearance. Genotype, not phenotype. 

For example, my Miniature Schnauzer is oversized. He is closer to the size of a Standard Schnauzer, but he is still a Miniature Schnauzer because that's what his parents are. They are different _breeds,_ not just varieties like Rough vs. Smooth Collies. The schnauzer sizes are not interbred, so even if an over or undersized one pops out, his breed doesn't change based on what height he reaches (also note that things like nutrition and spaying/nuetering can change the adult size of the animal). The coat varieties of Collies ARE interbred, so a dog is classified based on what kind of coat he has, but it's the same breed anyway.

It gets really complicated when you look at the Belgian herding breeds.  The poodle sizes are another example, in that case they are classified as varieties, but as far as I know people largely don't interbreed them because then things start getting wonky.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> Short answer: Your dog is a Pomeranian because her parents were Poms. Middlespitz are a different (though related) breed.
> 
> Admittedly, with the Spitzes it's a little confusing than most others because the history is a little more jumbled. Especially if you start considering the state of affairs outside of the US. But, essentially breeds are determined by lineage, not appearance. Genotype, not phenotype.
> 
> ...



oh wow okay I understand this now haha! THank you so much for taking ur time to explain this =D.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

My vote is for poorly bred Pom. But she is a cutie.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

Lastly, (hope I'm not being a bother) is it possible to estimate her adult height and weight?!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Not really.  There are all sorts of estimations you can find online (I can't recall what they specifically are) but sometimes they just do what they're going to do. My mutt was 5 lbs when I found her and the vet said she would average to be about 10-15 lbs full grown.. she's 55. xD


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

Haha that vet was way off. I found a formulat that says to do 52 weeks / by age in weeks. Then answer X current weight and I got 13.5 lbs! Sounds right?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Sounds like one of the calculations that I'm familiar with, but yeesh I hope it's wrong. That would put our foster puppy at 100 lbs full grown.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Sounds like one of the calculations that I'm familiar with, but yeesh I hope it's wrong. That would put our foster puppy at 100 lbs full grown.


Whao what kind of dog is that?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Alaskan Husky xD Ohhhh Cloverfield


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## stopbsl (Jul 13, 2011)

shes a throwback

how do i post a question


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

she's adorable, pure breed or not


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

roxie92 said:


> Whao what kind of dog is that?


Like Xeph said, Alaskan Husky and dad was some sort of beast, lol.


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## Jeepers (Jul 12, 2011)

She's much cuter than the show dog! I like how she looks fox-like.


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## roxie92 (Jul 8, 2011)

Now that I have that all figured out, onto training haha. She will go to bed when I tell her to, and will sit. Now I have to work from there lol


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

roxie92 said:


> Thats not what i was trying to do? How can you tell the differance between a "throwback pomeranian" and a mittlespitz? Roxie (my dog) looks closer to a mittlespotz IMO.


 
That would be like me calling my Dobe a Manchester (if she were undersized) or a Greyhound. They are different breeds though both were used to develop the Doberman (which is a much newer breed than the Pom).


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

I think she's adorable, my first thought is a pom mix, but I'm no expert by any stretch! There are dna kits available if it's something you are really wanting to find out for sure.


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## msprissysmom (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, I have the same issue, his nose is longer and he is tall, only 6 months old and weighs 10lbs or more! It is a CKC Continental Kennel Club registered and it does state that the dam & sire are pomeranians, but I believe the above post is correct about the Spitz dog, because on another post my pom does not look like that, although he does have features, personality and tail of a pom. My home pictures keep saying invalid files and they work fine everywhere else, so sorry can't post any pictures at this time, probably because I am a new user.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Honestly, she just looks like a very poorly bred Pom to me. My mother in-law owns three purebred Poms. 2 of them are big and the third one is really small. Apparently this is very typical.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Polywoggy said:


> Really? Never knew that. I actually prefer this foxy look to to the show type. Sometimes I don't understand the direction that is taken in a breed. This has made me much more interested in Poms.
> 
> Edit: http://www.akc.org/breeds/pomeranian/history.cfm
> Huh. There's a working dog in those fuzzy little lap-warmers!


Just read this and would like to recommend a read of 'Toy Dogs and Their Ancestors". It very much goes into the history of Pomeranians, and although the larger herding Spitz type is celebrated in the Pom history, there was also a great influence by the 'Toy Pom" or Pomeranian Meliteai (sp?). There were, essentially, two separate populations that had long existed that looked very much alike, one toy and one not, and in the 1800s they were combined. Hence the incredible variety that can be found in size.

Toy Dogs and Their Ancestors at Chest of Books (Chapter 11 begins the Pomeranian section) - http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/Toy-Dogs-Ancestor/

SOB


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

We once fostered a Pom who was very much a Pom, but looked quite a bit like your pup. I just found his pictures:


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## *pixi* (Dec 12, 2011)

I hope mine isn't big! He looks like a puppy version of the on above! He is 4 lbs right now at 4 months. My last pom grew to 25 lbs! I'm hoping for a small ending this time


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## jws120567 (Dec 26, 2011)

My Nemo is a pure-bred Pomeranian and a rescue. When he came to us, he had all his papers from when he was born. He's a big boy for a little guy, weighing in at approximately 16-pounds. I don't feel it's fair to exclude a portion of the Pomeranian community just because they're bigger than 7-pounds. I feel that since the 3 to 7-pounds are shown in the Toy category, that larger purebred Pommies ought to be included under the heading of "Standard", and the ones currently called "Toy" ought to be called "Teacup", that way they can both be shown in the Toy group. Anyone else feel the same way I do?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

jws120567 said:


> My Nemo is a pure-bred Pomeranian and a rescue. When he came to us, he had all his papers from when he was born. He's a big boy for a little guy, weighing in at approximately 16-pounds. I don't feel it's fair to exclude a portion of the Pomeranian community just because they're bigger than 7-pounds. I feel that since the 3 to 7-pounds are shown in the Toy category, that larger purebred Pommies ought to be included under the heading of "Standard", and the ones currently called "Toy" ought to be called "Teacup", that way they can both be shown in the Toy group. Anyone else feel the same way I do?


What exactly are you being excluded from? And no, I don't think we should use "teacup" for any thing. Word needs to be ridden from dog speak because it means nothing. There would need to be a call to consistently breed Poms of those sizes.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

jws120567 said:


> Anyone else feel the same way I do?


No.
The Toy group is just that...the group that breeds are lumped into. Just like the Sporting Group, Herding group, etc. The breed isn't called a "toy Pomeranian" (or "toy Yorkshire Terrier", "Toy Pug" etc). Your dog being out of the standard size doesn't exclude you from anything beyond showing in conformation. Being oversized doesn't do anything to affect being a great pet. (or even doing agility, obedience and the like)


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> We once fostered a Pom who was very much a Pom, but looked quite a bit like your pup. I just found his pictures:


That dog looks more like an American Eskimo cross than a purebred Pom (at least to me)  . Speaking of sizes my AED is about 23-24 pounds, 15-1/2 inches tall, show bred dog (many generations of Ch and GCh), and came from 12-1/2 and 12 inch parents, and has a sister who is about 12 pounds. He just reaches the size for standards and his parents were just a tiny bit bigger than toys.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

JuneBud said:


> That dog looks more like an American Eskimo cross than a purebred Pom (at least to me)  . Speaking of sizes my AED is about 23-24 pounds, 15-1/2 inches tall, show bred dog (many generations of Ch and GCh), and came from 12-1/2 and 12 inch parents, and has a sister who is about 12 pounds. He just reaches the size for standards and his parents were just a tiny bit bigger than toys.


He was very tiny, so who knows. He came from a mill bust with a ton of Poms of various looks and sizes.


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## XAssassinX (Jan 23, 2012)

i got five pomeranians, 2 of them are in standard size, other is slight above the standard size 3.6 kilo while the other is in 4 kilos. well the one thats is 3.6 kilo is more than a year already, probably 1 year and five months the other one is 1 year. seeing them i think they will not grow anymore. but i am bothered about the standard size of poms, they say its 3-7 so does it mean mine is not purebred?


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## XAssassinX (Jan 23, 2012)

sorry made a thread about my question


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

roxie92 said:


> Would it be okay to call her a mittlespitz instead? I did a lot of research in the pat days and have found that her height and weight and also appearance is much more similar to a mittlespitz then to the dwarfspitz also known as the pomeranian. Would that be okay?


First of, she is very CUTE . It sounds to me that you would like to find a good way of answering people when they question whether your dog is a pure bred Pom. You can call her whatever you want IMO, I likely misrepresent the breeds that went into my mutt, just because I don't know . Personally, rather than use the words "throwback" and "not well bred dog" (both of which I would not want to use to describe my dog, especially not to other people) I likely would say different things to different people. If someone seemed snooty about it I'd say something like, "oh yeah, she's a Pom, but not a show dog one. I prefer the foxier look and the ease of taking care of a shorter coat". To others I'd say that I bought her at a pet shop and that likely she is a puppy mill dog and segue into a rant against mills lol.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The OP hasn't been back and this is an old thread. Think it's time to lock and let sink.


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