# Views on Light Slap as Punishment



## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

Ive had dogs and cats all my life, and all my life ive seen my family hit them (not hard, just a light tap on the muzzle or head) when they are bad. When i got old enough i was taught also to do the same, and i did, with great results. Now i read online that it does nothing but make the animal fear you or hands, but that was never the case for my dogs or cats. The *light* smacking taught my dogs and cats the same as the shock collar teaches the dog where the invisible fence is.

Ive always had this technique used for dogs that destroy things or bite people or animals, and cats that pee on the floor or scratch or bite. Its not used for barking, being rambunctious, or not following a simple command. Its not overused. They always only got smacked if caught the action, or while they were held down looking at what they did (like for peeing or destruction). Never after the action has passed. Within no time at all i had very well behaved animals that werent afraid of hands or me. We never did a repetitive hit either. One smack, thats all. Dog bites, one smack. Come home to see house destroyed, take a minute to calm self down so that we dont hit hard, take animal to a ruined item and make them look at it, one smack.

In the wild, alpha wolves will slash open a shoulder or grab the throat of a misbehaving pack member to teach them to stay in line. Lightly smacking a dog is not nearly as bad as that, but the owner is the alpha and animals in nature learn through pain, and that is why its always worked for me i guess.

So based on my experience i think it is okay and helpful to *lightly* smack misbehaved dogs or cats, and its not abuse if not overused. Online i see lots of different views as well, almost split 50/50 between a useful punishment and useless abuse. What do you all think about *lightly* smacking bad pets?


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

I think there are no bad pets, only irresponsible owners.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

ive never seen a dog that was good 100% of its life and never in its life ruined anything or bit something without being punished and told not to at some point.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

That's what training is for. Hitting is not training. Hitting, even "light slapping" is, IMO, abuse. My dog has never been hit or yelled at and yet she's still a very good, obedient dog. She's never destroyed anything or chewed on anything she wasn't supposed to. She sits when she's asked to sit, and stays when she's asked to stay. With the exception of a minor leash pulling issue that we continue to work on with positive, non-adversive techniques, she's a very, very good dog. Hitting is unnecessary and all it teaches a dog is to fear you. That's not the kind of relationship I want with my dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't like it, and I'm an aversive using trainer somewhat balanced, but through the years I've had to deal with too many dogs that were hand/head shy. 

I always started dogs with combo verbal and hand signals because when dogs were picked up and customers went home with their instruction DVDs I wanted the 1st 10 minutes of work to be done hand signal only. People loved it and it gave me a chance to show off a bit with a dog that could be worked verbally or hand signals. 

I don't understand what you need, if you are satisfied with how your dogs turned out nothing else is needed. You say all your life, all the dogs were trained with the slap program, are we talking 50 dogs or more. Reason I'm asking is there are some dogs that will totally spook from a slap and maybe you and family just have not had that type of dog.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

When you come home and find something ruined and discipline the dog, no matter how you do it, it is not fair to the dog. You may think they know what you are showing them is what they did but dog's do not. They may act guilty as they know you are mad at them but they really do not know why you are slapping them. 

Even if you catch them in the act, there is no reason to slap them, even lightly. If they are chewing on something they shouldn't, it is your fault for leaving it where they can get it. If they pee on the floor when you are out, you should have them crated until they are fully housetrained or let them outside more often.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think once you've gotten to that point, you've lost.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> In the wild, alpha wolves will slash open a shoulder or grab the throat of a misbehaving pack member to teach them to stay in line. Lightly smacking a dog is not nearly as bad as that, but the owner is the alpha and animals in nature learn through pain, and that is why its always worked for me i guess.


I guess it's a good thing dogs aren't wolves, and we're not dogs or wolves.
Hauling off and smacking your dog will probably the desired result. They will fold up and stop what they're doing. They'll likely do it again, because you didn't teach them anything, but for the time being it'll work.
Eventually you'll likely get a dog who's hand shy. In some dogs, this sort of treatment could shut them down, even a "light smack". In other dogs, it'll get you bit, and rightly so. I'd bite someone if they smacked for without warning or cause too, and I have, don'tcha know.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Personally, if I felt like I had to hit my pets (er, "*LIGHTLY *smack" them) in order to get them to behave, I would never want to own a pet again, because I don't like hurting innocent animals that depend on me to survive. Somehow I don't think that's the response you're looking for, though. 

Do you really think you're going to get a whole bundle of people here saying "you are so OMG awesome for hitting your dog, how right you are, I have been so wrong all along with my clicker and cookies"?


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

I'll only hit indie in an emergency, example, she is about to put her face in a hot oven and I only just have time to shove her away. Other then that. No, just no.


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

The other day I was playing wii and accidentally smacked my dog on the side of the head, hard, with the wii controller. She yelped and slunk away, and forgave me pretty quickly, but kept looking at me strange for the rest of the night. Even though it was an accident, I felt so bad because I imagine she had no idea why I hit her. I'd think that smacking them for correction isn't much different.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

mashlee08 said:


> I'll only hit indie in an emergency, example, she is about to put her face in a hot oven and I only just have time to shove her away. Other then that. No, just no.


Ditto. I smacked Chester once on the butt because he was trying to kill a cat. He dropped the cat, cat was fine, we proceeded to spend the next few months on training around cats using positive association and we progressed to him being safe off-leash around the barn cats. Just like I've yanked the leash to haul him away from a car that didn't stop at a light; it was necessary and he wasn't upset but it doesn't mean I'm going to use yank and crank training on him. 

Seeing dogs that are hand shy and just cower when someone reaches to pet them is so sad, and there are plenty of dogs where a "light" slap is emotionally the same as a whack upside their head. It is also a dang good way to create a dog that bites, a few too many "light" slaps on the muzzle and next time that dog is at the park and a little kid reaches right for his nose for a pet..... well, not going to end well for anyone. 

I want my dog to trust me and see me as the provider of all good things in life. Hitting him on purpose (yes, I've tripped over him and bumped his head with a shopping bag and such, but he knows that is accidental) is counter to that desired trust.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I thought similarly to you when I first joined this board. I was a big Cesar Millan fan and didn't really know anything else. There may be some dogs who won't show permanent damage from a light smack but there are definitely ones who will... I own one now. Someone disciplined him harshly for peeing in the house (probably just a light slap) and we have spent the past 6 months trying to undo the damage. He still pees in the house, he has just learned to hide, so now instead of alerting me to go outside or peeing in front of me he will sneak away in the house somewhere quiet and out of the way.

I spent a lot of time at first trying to figure out the 'right' way to train or the 'best' way when I finally decided that like so many arguments it was pretty pointless. I decided to just try to learn from my dog, watch what motivates him and why and really understand him. I trust my compassion to tell me if I've crossed the line and I'm a soft touch anyways so I don't really worry about it. I have found though that the positive stuff by and large works better. We seem to communicate better and I like to see him excited about what we're doing instead of unsure and anxious about making a mistake. I recommend experimenting. You don't have to throw away everything you've ever learned... just be open to trying something new, just to see how it goes.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

aiw said:


> There may be some dogs who won't show permanent damage from a light smack but there are definitely ones who will


Exactly. The problem with arguments like these are often one side wants complete justification for what they do and the other side is firmly against it. The mirror copy of this thread is the "Snap! the leash" thread also going on right now. It's YOUR dog so do what YOU think is best. Be open to using positive techniques. Don't be surprised if you scar your dog with negative techniques. Find a happy medium and be ready to relearn everything AGAIN with any new dog; they're all different.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> In the wild, alpha wolves will slash open a shoulder or grab the throat of a misbehaving pack member to teach them to stay in line. Lightly smacking a dog is not nearly as bad as that, but the owner is the alpha and animals in nature learn through pain, and that is why its always worked for me i guess.


You need to read more about wolves. Start with this, the website of the guy who first helped popularize the "alpha wolf" idea. He now explains that he was wrong and that we've learned a ton about wolves in the years since his book came out. He links to a newer study on that page.

This article, this article, and this position statement also explain why it's silly for a human to attempt to act like a wolf.

So, no. I don't "lightly slap" my dogs, nor do I think they're stupid enough to consider me some big, hairless, bipedal alpha dog.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> In the wild, alpha wolves will slash open a shoulder or grab the throat of a misbehaving pack member to teach them to stay in line. Lightly smacking a dog is not nearly as bad as that, but the owner is the alpha and animals in nature learn through pain, and that is why its always worked for me i guess.
> 
> ?


This is not so. Wolves in the wild need all pack members healthy for the hunt. Therefore slashing a shoulder would be stupid. Besides, wolves are not dogs and owners are not alpha wolves. Dogs don't form packs. Scavengers and small game hunters don't need a pack, in fact surviving better as a solitary in most cases. Besides the things I want to teach dogs is not the same as what dogs want to teach other dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

mashlee08 said:


> I'll only hit indie in an emergency, example, she is about to put her face in a hot oven and I only just have time to shove her away. Other then that. No, just no.


That's management/reaction though. You're not teaching anything there, just attempting to avoid disaster. 

I have kicked Mia for almost jumping into an oven once. It was all I could do to stop her at the time. The intent wasn't to train, it was to keep her from being burnt.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

aiw said:


> I thought similarly to you when I first joined this board. I was a big Cesar Millan fan and didn't really know anything else. There may be some dogs who won't show permanent damage from a light smack but there are definitely ones who will... I own one now. Someone disciplined him harshly for peeing in the house (probably just a light slap) and we have spent the past 6 months trying to undo the damage. He still pees in the house, he has just learned to hide, so now instead of alerting me to go outside or peeing in front of me he will sneak away in the house somewhere quiet and out of the way.
> 
> I spent a lot of time at first trying to figure out the 'right' way to train or the 'best' way when I finally decided that like so many arguments it was pretty pointless. I decided to just try to learn from my dog, watch what motivates him and why and really understand him. I trust my compassion to tell me if I've crossed the line and I'm a soft touch anyways so I don't really worry about it. I have found though that the positive stuff by and large works better. We seem to communicate better and I like to see him excited about what we're doing instead of unsure and anxious about making a mistake. I recommend experimenting. You don't have to throw away everything you've ever learned... just be open to trying something new, just to see how it goes.


This needs to be repeated. Because it's very beautiful to see someone change their mind for the sake of their dog. 

I own a hand shy dog. Kabota likes to be petted, he asks to be petted, but he closes his eyes and flinches when you bring your hand down over his head. Once you're petting him, he's fine, but for that one instant, he's not. It makes me very sad. In 10 months, I haven't been able to fix it, either. We don't slap in my house. Ever. Touches are nice or not at all and that's a rule for everyone to everyone. Kabota is still scared.

And yes, before anyone says anything, I would grab a child or dog away from something immediately dangerous. I say "would" because every time it comes up, I've yelled and because I so rarely raise my voice, it was so shocking it worked like a slap.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't think we provided any of the expected affirmation ?


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

I hit my dog when he was younger. It was mostly reactionary to something he did. Like once I really took it to him when he growled at me over a new bone I gave him, my fault for being too close but it was a reaction to smack him.
I always knew the consequences and that he could become hand shy, so I always made my hands a good thing. I don't hit him at all now but I still make sure to keep reminding him that hands are always good even when they are hanging above you, even when they move fast, no matter what they are doing they are good. They mean cookies, they mean pets, they mean toys, they mean play time, hands are always a good thing.
It's worked and I've never had a problem with it, he's greeted children who do the classic "LETS PUT MY HAND OVER THE DOGS NOSE" thing and he's nice.

If I had the chance to go back and stop myself from hitting my dog I would. It's nothing good, it doesn't teach the dog anything, and it isn't fair to the dog. All you do is create fear, it may not be noticeable all the time but the dog remembers that you hit him and he's not sure when you are gonna hit him next.
It's a waste of time really, all it does it make you feel better and makes you think you accomplished something, when really you haven't.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

OP - Why would you want to smack a dog if the possibility for better communication with your dog is readily available to you? Your goal is to build trust and encourage better behaviors; smacking doesn't do that. It’s kind of like a modern day doctor blood-letting to treat an ear infection, instead of administering proper medication. 

If your boss smacked you or called you a name every time you made a mistake, you might eventually learn not to make that mistake, but you'd harbor some resentment and wouldn't be an effective worker. If your boss took the time to patiently show you what he/she did want, you'd have a better relationship and you'd be a more productive worker and lean towards being a happier, more loyal employee. 

Why not motivate the dog to perform an alternate behavior instead?


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## spoiler (Aug 27, 2012)

Good on you OP. At least you've got the courage to voice a politically incorrect opinion on this forum.
We all hit each other at home. !!


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

ok thanks everyone! U have all cleared up what my parents taught me and what the internet was very split on. I figured i would ask a forum of dog owners to see what you think since you are people that arent my parents or internet. Now i know that what i was told about wolves is wrong and that the way ive trained dogs forever isnt a good way. So now i know with my own dog that doesnt live with my parents anymore that i can try these other techniques instead. Im not disappointed at all with my results on my question and poll. I dont ask questions if i dont want the answer. I thank you all for your excellent fact-backed experiences and opinions.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I don't smack Molly because she is sensitive and her feelings are easily bruised.

I don't smack Esther because she could kill me. 

Seriously, even raising my voice around any dog I've ever had was so devastating and demoralizing for both the dog and for me that I look for reasonable alternatives - like just poking myself in the eye with a sharp stick.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I will admit to having this believe when I raised Izze & raised her this way, for her IMO it was the way she rolled ... But she was the only dog I have come across that almost "needed" to know you were "really" serious in making her behave & til the day she died she tested the rules ... It was just who she was.

Josefina & busy on the other hand are soft as feathers, just looking at them too harshly be gets calming signals. I don't do this anymore but there are times when I will admit to getting frustrated & "wanting" to. But when I reach day point I take a break & spend some time "swatting" my pillow.


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## RitaNg123 (Sep 27, 2012)

I find it very frustrating in my age group, because a lot of us grew up with dogs as children, raised by our parents, and done the wrong way.

So now as an adult, I have really made efforts to do positive training/reinforcement with my dog. But I get so much flack from people around me. For instance, I do the whole 'take the dog out every half hour, then every 45 mins, then once/hr' thing for potty training and they all think I'm insane. They said to just "put it in the backyard and it will go eventually." They also think that when I don't flip out over the dog having accidents, I'm sending a message that it is okay for the dog to do this. People still advocate the whole shoving the dog's face in accidents and yelling. They also think I'm wrong for not smacking the dog if it pulls on my pant leg. When I talk about giving my dog opportunities to "do good" vs. trying to catch him being naughty and punishing, they think I spoil my dog. 

People think I'm really hokey when I talk about all these other methods, and I think people are very stuck on methods that were used 20+ years ago, because even those owners had relatively happy, decently adjusted dogs.


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## Shoul (May 8, 2012)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> ok thanks everyone! U have all cleared up what my parents taught me and what the internet was very split on. I figured i would ask a forum of dog owners to see what you think since you are people that arent my parents or internet. Now i know that what i was told about wolves is wrong and that the way ive trained dogs forever isnt a good way. So now i know with my own dog that doesnt live with my parents anymore that i can try these other techniques instead. Im not disappointed at all with my results on my question and poll. I dont ask questions if i dont want the answer. I thank you all for your excellent fact-backed experiences and opinions.


So happy to hear someone willing to inform themselves. I also started out not too sure which training techniques to use, luckily I already a bit knowledge on clickers and different types of reinforcements from working with horses before I got my dog. This board is a great source of information if you go through all the stickys. 

Good on you! :rockon: Keep reading and informing yourself and your dog will start to make a lot more sense to you. You will have a dog that loves to work with you instead of one that "obeys" because he's scared of what might happen (which could become dangerous when they don't understand what you want).


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> ive never seen a dog that was good 100% of its life and never in its life ruined anything or bit something without being punished and told not to at some point.


That doesn't make the dog "bad". It makes the behavior unwanted.

Big difference.

As far as slapping a dog for punishment - I don't believe its ever necessary. It might be _easiest_ for the human, and, yes, a dog will learn to avoid what causes him or her pain (of course, if it's a light slap, what's pain got to do with it?), but as the only possible way to communicate to a dog that a behavior is unwanted? No, I don't believe that.

I also believe the 'alpha' dog would only do that if all other signals were unheeded. If body blocking or other body language didn't work, and vocalization didn't work, and then threatening (like air snapping) didn't work, then maybe ripping the other dog's shoulder might be the next step - but considering dogs typically AVOID wanting to resort to such methods - I believe it's a last resort.

As a species with a bigger brain and control of the dog's motivators, I believe we can work towards manipulation over violence.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

One person voted that they "hit their dogs all the time". Sad.

I guess they're too cowardly to add any text comments, no surprise.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Nope the all positive all the time on this forum just drives me up the wall so I don't get involved. The attitude that if you use any sort of adhesive you are somehow not training is irritating as hell frankly. Yup I sometimes smack my dogs, I also own an ecollar and a prong collar I also use lots a shaping and rewarding. My dogs are not hand shy or scared of me any way and we have a rock solid relationship. The methods I use is "whatever works" . For misty and gem that's freeshaping, for gyp luring plus adversives, Baby adversives and freeshaping, happy- watch anouther dog first and reward with toys. Rusty, primarily punishment alpha stuff with some rewards mixed in. And BTW I am not stuck in old ways. I was raised on all positive training mindset I changed because I found that all positive does NOT always work..does it "usually" work? Yes but always is the overstatement of the year.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Miss Bugs said:


> Nope the all positive all the time on this forum just drives me up the wall so I don't get involved. The attitude that if you use any sort of adhesive you are somehow not training is irritating as hell frankly. Yup I sometimes smack my dogs, I also own an ecollar and a prong collar I also use lots a shaping and rewarding. My dogs are not hand shy or scared of me any way and we have a rock solid relationship. The methods I use is "whatever works" . For misty and gem that's freeshaping, for gyp luring plus adversives, Baby adversives and freeshaping, happy- watch anouther dog first and reward with toys. Rusty, primarily punishment alpha stuff with some rewards mixed in. And BTW I am not stuck in old ways. I was raised on all positive training mindset I changed because I found that all positive does NOT always work..does it "usually" work? Yes but always is the overstatement of the year.


First of all, "all positive reinforcement" is difficult to actually do in practice. Let alone "all positive all the time". I have not seen anyone say that you should use +R 100% of the time. 

If you withhold a reward, that's negative punishment. So already, you're not "all positive reinforcement". NILIF is non-aversive, but not "all positive". Also, "all positive" from a strict behaviorist standpoint could mean +R and +P combined, which makes the "all positive" label useless because it's meaning doesn't have a clear foundation or definition (is it all positive reinforcement, positive punishment, or all the positive side of the quadrants?).

If you know how to use negative reinforcement and positive punishment successfully and you obviously can read when to and not to use it based on your dogs (judging from your post), so that's also a big plus. I see you also use observational learning. You probably also use environmental cues. 

Does anything ever "always" work? Probably not, though I'd argue that dogs are going to repeat behaviors that bring about the results they want (technically, it's +R with the cue being whatever situation that prompted the behavior). The concept of self-rewarding behaviors exists because the result of the behavior is a desired result for the dog, so the dog is going to repeat that behavior in that situation again.

I'd say +R does always work from the dog's perspective (I'm going to do things again that get me the stuff I want). Do humans always use it successfully? No. Are dogs going to be positively reinforced only by things we humans want them to do? No.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> One person voted that they "hit their dogs all the time". Sad.
> 
> I guess they're too cowardly to add any text comments, no surprise.


This is the sort of statement that will get this thread shut down and members sent to Banned Camp.

The moderators have no hesitation to use "adversives" when needed here.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Nope the all positive all the time on this forum just drives me up the wall so I don't get involved.


Having watched dog training of others for 50 years and the ignorance of some aversives used and some dogs hurt severely, (some killed) So I have no problem (no wall driving here) 

What I like is that the mix of positive stuff and amateurs doesn't hurt dogs. Of course there is always the bolting dog that could get hurt by a car etc that might have been stopped with the proper aversive. But that dog could also have been stopped with lead control. 

As a trainer I do not have to use any of it, or I can if needed use as much as I want. There are nuggets of positive learning here. Just sayin'..


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## ohbehave (Apr 20, 2012)

Beyond whatever ethical considerations we may harbor, the use of one's hand (and, of course, your close proximity is inherent) to deliver an aversive has some very worrisome side effects that can make other interactions with your dog difficult.
I have no qualms with the carefully considered delivery of a punishment protocol.

My current dog is what I would call a "nervy" dog. Somewhat quick-to-worry and her reactions are fast and sharp. This might be the worst candidate for a personal, hand delivered slap punishment. I am certain that if I popped her just once, she would be immediately hand shy and it would take some counter-conditioning to erase that side effect. I never approach my dog unless I'm providing "happy things" (toy, petting, treat). The last thing I want is a dog that dodges my hand or runs from me. That's a major hassle. (and this dog is about as pre-wired a "runner" as they come)

Surely, other dogs can tolerate all manner of (apparent) aversives without any notable side effects. Go figure.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I said "my" methode is whatever works, I am not an amatur, I have been training and competing since I was young and my mom has been training and competing since she was 14. I could not care less what everyone else does, but blanket statements like using adversives "isnt training" and a smack/ecollar/prong is cruelty, THAT is what drives me nuts on this forum..then I go over the the BC forum and someone asks how to get a dog to quite doing something when redirecting etc.. isnt working and there is 3 pages of responses of "give him a swat" lol all the foums I am on propote postive training, but not one of then is like this forum that pretty much demonizes anything that isnt 100% postive. THAT is why I generally stay out of training threads on this forum. its not the promotion of positive, is the demonizing of everything else.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

This forum seems to get a lot of pop-ons asking things like "My dog peed in the house, I rubbed her nose in it but she STILL won't learn". That is not a carefully considered and applied aversive (which I don't have any problem with). Advice should be tailored for the person hearing it and those people, although doing what they know and have learned SHOULD be told that those kind of tactics are counterproductive. I also find sometimes people here get a little dogmatic about their 'system' or 'philosophy' of choice but its generally directed at someone who is using aversives without much thought or experience. Its pretty damn rare for wvasko to get told off for example...


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

oh I am not talking about threads like that,. I totally agree, I recall one thread about someone who twice hit their dog over the head with a kleenex box and the dog bit them, those types of threads, aboslutly, when I hear stuff like that IRL I jump on it lol however I dont read a lot of those threads, I mostly read the generalized "how do you use do this" "would you ever do this" type threads(like this one lol) which always results in full demonizing of all things negitive, and snid remarks of "TRAIN them" as if using adversives is somehow not training.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Its pretty damn rare for wvasko to get told off for example...


# 1, I'm a senior and they are all just being kind to me.

# 2, Now I've said this before, while being an self-admitted aversive user, (yes I use corrections when necessary) I just don't give aversive advice to be used on dogs I have not read to strangers I don't know. That would be damn stupid.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Miss Bugs said:


> I mostly read the generalized "how do you use do this" "would you ever do this" type threads(like this one lol) which always results in full demonizing of all things negitive, and snid remarks of "TRAIN them" as if using adversives is somehow not training.


Who demonizes negative punishment? I'd like to see the argument against it.

I haven't seen that like ever, nor have I seen someone telling a user of -P that they aren't training, directly or through the back door.

-R, yeah, I've seen that demonized, and it goes too far (as do the silly crap about +R being "bribery" or "dog will only work for food" or whatever nonsense), but never -P.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

Miss Bugs said:


> oh I am not talking about threads like that,. I totally agree, I recall one thread about someone who twice hit their dog over the head with a kleenex box and the dog bit them, those types of threads, aboslutly, when I hear stuff like that IRL I jump on it lol however I dont read a lot of those threads, I mostly read the generalized "how do you use do this" "would you ever do this" type threads(like this one lol) which always results in full demonizing of all things negitive, and snid remarks of "TRAIN them" as if using adversives is somehow not training.


I don't think I demonized anyone. The question was "views on light slap as punishment". My view is that I don't see value in slapping or hitting and I don't think it works as well as other methods.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

We used +P 20-30 years ago, but we know better ways now... However, now that we've outed wvasko - I bet Pierce just bats his eyes and still gets away with murder.  I can reveal the secret of my shameful slaps. Those of you who have large Pits or Labs, don't snicker...
1. A Lab has a baseball bat for a tail, and a rear end that can swing it! If you lightly slap a young, healthy adult Lab on the rear end, he may wag his tail, and if you slap him hard (hurting your hand), he may turn and look at you - Oh, Oh - b/c now he wants to play ...
2. This may also be true of large Bullies (Staffies) and Boxers... but sometimes you can hurt a Staffy's feelings if you wag your finger at him and whisper 'bad dog.' A Lab would lick you, trying to drown you, that hit you with his tail.
3. I know, b/c I did this to my Lab-GSD mix. Once. He never knew of my infraction, b/c he thought I was playing 
4. Although I still thump (or slap?) the tip of his tail when he's sniffing/eating something on the ground that I don't 'allow.'
So I thump him when he ignores me... and he'll sit, still ignoring me ... so I have to drag him away from that disgusting $#!% on the ground.
5. I'm much more gentle with him now, because he's older and more fragile ... Although he can still get the zoomies when it's cold.
6. ... but I wouldn't strike him to train him... unless he thought it was ++R 
7. I was just at the dog park today and a strange, adolescent Rottie came and hit me with his rump. So I slapped it, and he leaned harder.. and I slapped him harder... he turned and smiled at me, really, and leaned harder. I looked at his owner, who looked back, shook his head, shrugged his shoulders, and nodded... Rotties are like Labs...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

hanksimon said:


> 1. A Lab has a baseball bat for a tail, and a rear end that can swing it! If you lightly slap a young, healthy adult Lab on the rear end, he may wag his tail, and if you slap him hard (hurting your hand), he may turn and look at you - Oh, Oh - b/c now he wants to play ...


I believe it! 

One thing I forget dealing with a small tail cushioned with long hair is that dog tails are weapons of somewhat massive destruction (WSMDs). I get reminded whenever a friendly big dog wants to meet me, and, of course, I can't refuse the siren call of nose licks and an ear twitch and then WHAP WHAP WHAP - I'm brutalized by his/her tail.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LOL Hankismom, I play slap all my dogs (pug, Dobe and EB) and they all enjoy it, it revs them up. I can stop any of them in their tracks by raising my voice, and will give a single loud clap to interrupt behavior. The EB is a little head shy, not sure if he was hit or not but I strongly suspect he was, so hands are for good things only.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

My dog has not been "Hit" in anger (as far as he knows  ) and I play threaten him with all kinds of things... so he's not hand shy. However, when he is surprised by loud noises, even if the TV gets overly loud for commercials, then he may cringe or flinch when I 'threaten' him. He forgets it after a few minutes ... but I was so shocked (and 'embarrassed') when he cringed the first time. 

My point is that just shouting at the EB in a previous life, might have caused the head shyness. [I've never seen anything written about this collateral effect.]

Hope you're doing OK with Hurricane Sandy...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> My point is that just shouting at the EB in a previous life, might have caused the head shyness. [I've never seen anything written about this collateral effect.]


I'm not sure that would be labeled as headshy more of a mental shy. For conversation sake it's known that you could take a metal pan and once a day for 2 or 3 weeks (or longer) drop it by pups together or kenneled in separate kennel runs and never get a reaction at all. Then one day for whatever reason one pup will go yelping to back of kennel. 

I believe it's possible with older pups 4 months to a year old (or older) and the same thing can happen. It does not have to be from abuse, more like a dog being in the wrong place when the wrong sound etc smacks him/her mentally. Hope I've written it like it's in my head cause sometimes I'm not good explaining.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Understood & Clear [5 by 5]... So, now I've seen it written down... and I think I understand the 'process' from a fear cycle perspective. Thanks.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well this is the Dumb (me) leading the Blind (you) as I said it's just for conversation sake. I think a shorter/easier to understand version is "sh*t sometimes just happens"


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Yeah, usually, you're brief and to the point... in contrast to my extensive step-by-step full life cycle instruction manual :-0


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## Dog_Whisperer (May 11, 2021)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Ive had dogs and cats all my life, and all my life ive seen my family hit them (not hard, just a light tap on the muzzle or head) when they are bad. When i got old enough i was taught also to do the same, and i did, with great results. Now i read online that it does nothing but make the animal fear you or hands, but that was never the case for my dogs or cats. The *light* smacking taught my dogs and cats the same as the shock collar teaches the dog where the invisible fence is.
> 
> Ive always had this technique used for dogs that destroy things or bite people or animals, and cats that pee on the floor or scratch or bite. Its not used for barking, being rambunctious, or not following a simple command. Its not overused. They always only got smacked if caught the action, or while they were held down looking at what they did (like for peeing or destruction). Never after the action has passed. Within no time at all i had very well behaved animals that werent afraid of hands or me. We never did a repetitive hit either. One smack, thats all. Dog bites, one smack. Come home to see house destroyed, take a minute to calm self down so that we dont hit hard, take animal to a ruined item and make them look at it, one smack.
> 
> ...


My grandfathers, father and uncles have been breeding dogs for decades and I was a part of that growing up. I've had nothing but well trained and loving dogs. My go to is a firm NO but sometimes a rolled up newspaper with a light tap will get the messge across better. Some breeds are stubborn and just dont want to listen sometimes. Dogs will never fear your hands as long as you keep it light and catch them in the act. People who consider a light tap to be animal abuse are weird to say the least - they clearly have no idea what animal abuse is. They also demonstrate little knowledge about canine behaviour and pack animals. As you've described, pack animals fight amongst eachother to establish dominance and keep other members in check. I dont buy into sensitive internet trends. People can have their opinion all they want, but an opinion remains an opinion and doesn't make it a fact.
Our planet was conquered by fierce man who carried swords but in todays world, if you scratch your ass cheek in a public someone will find it offensive and much like a light tap, its considered abuse. 
Some people should seriously thicken up their skin. Ive seen animal abuse first hand in third world countries - a light tap isn't animal abuse!


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

This is a nine year old thread and most of the participants haven't been active here in a long time. I'm closing it to further replies, but feel free to start your own thread or participate in any of our current discussions.


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