# Help chosing a food...



## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

Hey everyone 

I have 2 pomeranians. 

Aiko - 6 months old
Mischa - 6 years old 

Aiko has been on Nutro since he was a puppy. He doesn't like it. He will only eat it because I give him no other choice. Before his cute little face would get him table scraps and treats to supplement his lack of eating much of it.

We've cut off that addiction. No more human food, and extremely limited treats.

I want to get him something that he wants though. That is healthy but taste's good too!

Mischa I just adopted from the shelter. Apparently she's been on Science Diet which she loves. However I read a lot about how it's not a good food and I would love to switch her to something healthy but good tasting as well.

ALSO, since their ages differ so much, do I have to get different food? I'm hoping I can purchase one kind of food for them both.

I was told by several people that because Pomeranians tend to have lots of teeth problems that dry food is best.

Anyone have any suggestions?

I'm trying to do my own research on it, and I've looked at several sites. However I am curious about other peoples opinoins.


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I would try him on the Science Diet. At the worst, an adult chow will delay a puppy reaching its adult size. Many believe an early switch is better for large breeds and I don't think it would hurt a Pom. 

Most of the negatives you read on Science Diet are based on speculation about the ingredients. While there is a wide body of evidence it is fine, there is nothing but anecdotes to condemn it.


----------



## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

I also have small breed dogs. My Cav/bichon just turned 7 months and I have a Lhasa /Bichon mix who just turned 11. I have them both on the same food. I have them both on California Naturals Lamb meal and rice adult. Its good for all life stages. I know that natura line as well as Natural Balance are for all life stages.

When I first got my puppy I discussed when switching her to an adult food and she said that anywhere between 5 to 6 months of age is fine to switch her. 

If you're concerned by all means discuss it with your vet as to when to switch your pup. But switching her now would be fine.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Most of the negatives you read on Science Diet are based on speculation about the ingredients. While there is a wide body of evidence it is fine, there is nothing but anecdotes to condemn it.


Ugg, I wish you would stop giving people food advice on every single food thread that pops up on here. I've ignored it for the most part, but I feel like you are truly doing harm.

Science diet is a totally crappy food. Just because you believe it's fine for your dogs doesn't mean that you should post inaccurate information supporting it online. There is _not_ a "wide body of evidence that it is fine" and there is far more than "speculation" and "anecdotes to condemn it."

To the OP, check out DogFoodProject.com and DogFoodAnalysis.com to learn about dog foods and the reasons why so many people are moving towards using higher quality foods.

Here's a comparison.

Orijen Adult dog food ingredients:
*Ingredients*
Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt...
Here's Hill's Science Diet Canine Adult Active Formula:
*Ingredients:*
Corn meal, chicken by-product meal (including white meat, dark meat, liver and other internal organs), animal fat (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), dried beet pulp, vegetable oil, dried egg product, flaxseed, preserved with BHT and BHA, minerals (potassium chloride, iodized salt, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite)...

Corn meal, a known allergen that's inappropriate for canine consumption, as a _first ingredient_? Chicken _by-product_ meal? Animal fat, from an unidentified source? Beet pulp, a controversial filler? BHT and BHA preservatives, which are carcinogenic?

Labsnothers, I believe it's unethical for you to tell people to feed their dogs like this, and as long as you continue to do so, I am going to regard all of your posts here with suspicion. It also makes me feel compelled to post, just to counterbalance the stuff that you post.

To the OP, I hope you find something that your dogs will like, and that will help them be healthy. I know that my pets vastly prefer most of the higher quality foods. One, who never had much of an appetite before I made the switch, loves his food now.


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. 

I get quite sick of seeing lists of ingredients posted. I have seen them all and seen through the allegations. 

What I haven't seen is a controlled study showing that any ingredient is bad.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I get quite sick of seeing lists of ingredients posted. I have seen them all and seen through the allegations.
> 
> What I haven't seen is a controlled study showing that any ingredient is bad.


Oh yeah, and you have seen a controlled study showing that corn meal is good for dogs?

Are you affiliated with one of these dog food companies? Please answer honestly.


----------



## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

Thank you guys for your responses. I will definately check out that website.

Canteloupe, I assume your feeding your small breed dogs Orijen Adult dog food ?

(If not what are you feeding them?) What's your opinion on your dog's coats? My Aiko (6mths old) has a really really soft coat and his skin is very soft under it. He's been on a different food though.

Now, I'm concerned about Mischa's coat, because its extremely course, in comparison to Aiko's and her her skin under her coat is dry and in some places scaley feeling. 

Im wondering if a change in food might help this.


----------



## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

I recommend Kirkland brand from Costco. Good ingredients, and very cost effective. Since switching Sandy and my cats over to kirkland food, they all have extremely soft and silky coats. They also all LOVE the taste. 

Canteloupe, I agree with your opinions about science diet, but beet pulp does have health benefits and is not harmful unless your dog is allergic to it.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

SweetJeannie said:


> Canteloupe, I assume your feeding your small breed dogs Orijen Adult dog food ?
> 
> (If not what are you feeding them?) What's your opinion on your dog's coats? My Aiko (6mths old) has a really really soft coat and his skin is very soft under it. He's been on a different food though.
> 
> ...


I actually am currently dogless. I'm planning to adopt in the near future (I went last weekend but didn't find the right dog). I have three cats. My last two dogs came to me eating Science Diet, but I switched and fed a variety of foods.

I rotate between Orijen, Blue Buffalo Wilderness, Innova EVO, Taste of the Wild (although I stopped using TOTW recently because their parent company uses ethoxyquin in the fish meal), Nature's Variety Instinct, Go! Natural, and others. Rotating provides a greater variety of nutritional sources, which is a good thing, and it works better with the premium foods than with foods like Science Diet (which often cause rough transitions). It depends on your dog, though. Some dogs just don't do well with changes in diet, so for them it might be best to find one food and stick to it. I used Orijen as an example in my first post because Orijen is very popular on here and is widely regarded as one of the best.

Changes in coat and skin quality are one of the biggest differences that I've noticed. My last dog was very itchy and had chronic flea problems that defied frontline plus and other flea treatments. His coat was also noticable rough and dry. I had a huge bag of Science Diet that he came with, so I took a while to finish it, but once I switched him to better food there were immediate improvements. He was less itchy right away, and over the subsequent month his coat got smoother, finer, and silkier. The food was much more palatable to him, also. He used to eat hungrily for a minute, and then come find me and act like he wanted more food -- but then I'd see that there was still food in his bowl that he didn't want to eat. He much preferred the foods with higher meat content.

My cats are better too. One of them had greasy fur and dandruff, which is totally gone. All three have more energy. One of them had chronic digestive problems, including constipation, and in the years since I switched to better foods he's done much better.

Whatever food you choose, make sure you transition very slowly. The nutritional profiles of Nutro and Science Diet are very different than those of the premium foods, so it'll take time for their digestive systems to adjust. Also, you might want to start with a food that's more in the midrange in terms of protein content. The foods I was talking about are mostly around 42% protein, and that's a lot more than SD or Nutro. If you look around, you should be able to find a high quality food that is in the mid-thirties.

Oh, I have an idea. Check out Wellness Core. Their foods are high quality and grain free, but are 34% protein so they might be an easier adjustment. You could try the Wellness Core Original Adult for the 6 year old dog, and Wellness "Just for Puppy" for the 6 month old dog until he's a year old.

Maybe you could also check out Natural Balance foods. They are higher quality, but again they have lower protein levels so they might be an easier transition for your dogs.

Also, higher quality foods have fewer filler ingredients, so you don't need to feed as much. (And one of the nicer side-effects is that they poop a lot less, too.) If you can't find these foods at a store near you, they have them all at petfooddirect.com.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

ETA: One thing I forgot to suggest is fish oil supplements. You can buy fish oil loose, that's meant for pets, but I prefer buying it in gel capsules. Fish oil degrades very quickly with exposure to air, so the capsules keep it fresh. You can buy it in the vitamin section at the super market, poke a hole in the capsules, and add it directly to the food. Fish oil is very popular for improving coat condition.


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> ETA: One thing I forgot to suggest is fish oil supplements. You can buy fish oil loose, that's meant for pets, but I prefer buying it in gel capsules. Fish oil degrades very quickly with exposure to air, so the capsules keep it fresh. You can buy it in the vitamin section at the super market, poke a hole in the capsules, and add it directly to the food. Fish oil is very popular for improving coat condition.


I've now fallen for the Orijen 6 fish adult which has all that fishy goodness. My pup is doing fabulous on it.


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> Oh yeah, and you have seen a controlled study showing that corn meal is good for dogs?
> 
> Are you affiliated with one of these dog food companies? Please answer honestly.


Well, http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-companion/2004-Hill- Alternative proteins in--.pdf While true the presenter was from ADM, the academics would have shredded him if it was a bunch of marketing hype. 

There is also the common sense matter of all the fine, healthy dogs eating foods with varying levels of corn. 

The ball is really in your court. You are attacking conventional practice that seems to be working sell. 

No, I am not affiliated with any food company, distributor, ingredient supplier, etc. On the other hand, I have actually seen pro premium food posts listing a website where you can buy the food. Astro turf is quite common on the web. I would love to know where the funding really comes from for many of the sites pushing premium food, homemade, and raw. And what about all the ads? somebody is making good money on all that.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Labsnothers said:


> Well, http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-companion/2004-Hill- Alternative proteins in--.pdf While true the presenter was from ADM, the academics would have shredded him if it was a bunch of marketing hype.


I'll admit a skimed and didn't read, but I have to get ready for work.

My first problem is the article claims that dogs are omnivores. How is it possible for dogs to be omnivores when they don’t produce the enzyme that breaks down cellulose? They only why they are able to gain any nutrition at all from this vegetables, grains, and fillers is by them being very highly processed and broken down. There is now evidence that points to dogs being opportunistic carnivores, or scavengers.

The article is also written to the pet food companies, so they can cut back cost by using cheaper grains as opposed to the more expensive meat products. He mentions meat protein sources for one paragraph and then states he will never bring them up again. I think you have just given us a look into the compromises these companies make to reach the bottom line. The whole article is about coast management, not what is in actuality best for the canine.

Someone told me once not to believe everything I read on the interenet. Oh, wait, that was you!


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> I think you have just given us a look into the compromises these companies make to reach the bottom line. The whole article is about coast management, not what is in actuality best for the canine.


Did you have to go and dig up the real world business model and how that may affect a product mass produced to just barely pass minimal health regulations???

Now you've done it.


----------



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.
> 
> *I get quite sick of seeing lists of ingredients posted.* I have seen them all and seen through the allegations.
> 
> What I haven't seen is a controlled study showing that any ingredient is bad.



Yeah I'd get sick of it too if I was feeding my dog a sub par food. I'm sure the people who eat at McDonald's everyday don't enjoy reading the nutritional facts of their double quarter-pounder with cheese while they munch away.


I've still yet to see your oh-so-conclusive evidence that feeding corn and by-products is healthier than fresh _real_ meat, _real_ eggs,fish oils etc.


----------



## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

There are plenty of foods to choose from on the market today...they range from supermarket foods with IMO poor ingredients to the cadillac of foods (like Orijen) with "human grade" ingredients. And it is correct to say that some dogs do very well with the supermarket brands, like Purina One, Iams, etc. and some do not do well on those. Conversely, some dogs do fantastic on the super premium, holistic, all-natural foods and some do not. So, after saying that, my suggestion is to do your research....by that I mean, 1. figure out your budget for dog food., 2. consider your breed of dog, its age, health, etc., 3. look at the ingredients in the foods your are considering and also the protein, fat, fiber (and possible calcium, phosphorus) contents and caloric value of the foods, and read some reviews online or ask other people who may be using the food how their dogs have done on it...and you could also discuss with your vet if you feel the need., 4. try to locate some samples of the foods you would like to try (or just choose one to try at first and go from there), 5. use the samples as treats or mix a very small amt. into your dogs current food to see if it is palatable to your dog, 5. after deciding which food to use, mix slowly into current food (you might also try a probiotic while mixing) until your dog is totally on the new food., 6. give it at least 1 month, maybe longer to see how your dog does on the new food. 

It may take a few trys to find a food YOUR dog does well on, or you might find the "one" food on the first try, but always remember to go slow in transitioning. IMHO, there is no one "best" food! It all depends on how your dog does on the food. I have 4 dogs and will admit to trying quite a few different brands of dog food over the years...it doesn't help/hurt that I work in a pet store lol. Anyway, my dogs are currently eating Nature's Variety Instinct and NV raw medallions. Some of the foods I have used in the past and like for MY dogs are Orijen/Acana, FROMM 4-star, Eagle Pack Holistic Select, Merrick, Natural Balance, Wellness CORE, Solid Gold. As you can see, by my list, I prefer the super premium foods for my dogs. However, they did not do well on EVO, or regular Wellness, or Blue Buffalo. Personally, for me, my choices of foods will always be from the super premium types, but if my dogs absolutely could not handle these, then I would probably use Eukanuba or Pro Plan. Good luck in your search and just remember that what food YOU choose for YOUR dogs is YOUR personal choice.


----------



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

StellaLucyDesi said:


> There are plenty of foods to choose from on the market today...they range from supermarket foods with IMO poor ingredients to the cadillac of foods (like Orijen) with "human grade" ingredients. And it is correct to say that some dogs do very well with the supermarket brands, like Purina One, Iams, etc. and some do not do well on those. Conversely, some dogs do fantastic on the super premium, holistic, all-natural foods and some do not. So, after saying that, my suggestion is to do your research....by that I mean, 1. figure out your budget for dog food., 2. consider your breed of dog, its age, health, etc., 3. look at the ingredients in the foods your are considering and also the protein, fat, fiber (and possible calcium, phosphorus) contents and caloric value of the foods, and read some reviews online or ask other people who may be using the food how their dogs have done on it...and you could also discuss with your vet if you feel the need., 4. try to locate some samples of the foods you would like to try (or just choose one to try at first and go from there), 5. use the samples as treats or mix a very small amt. into your dogs current food to see if it is palatable to your dog, 5. after deciding which food to use, mix slowly into current food (you might also try a probiotic while mixing) until your dog is totally on the new food., 6. give it at least 1 month, maybe longer to see how your dog does on the new food.
> 
> It may take a few trys to find a food YOUR dog does well on, or you might find the "one" food on the first try, but always remember to go slow in transitioning. IMHO, there is no one "best" food! It all depends on how your dog does on the food. I have 4 dogs and will admit to trying quite a few different brands of dog food over the years...it doesn't help/hurt that I work in a pet store lol. Anyway, my dogs are currently eating Nature's Variety Instinct and NV raw medallions. Some of the foods I have used in the past and like for MY dogs are Orijen/Acana, FROMM 4-star, Eagle Pack Holistic Select, Merrick, Natural Balance, Wellness CORE, Solid Gold. As you can see, by my list, I prefer the super premium foods for my dogs. However, they did not do well on EVO, or regular Wellness, or Blue Buffalo. Personally, for me, my choices of foods will always be from the super premium types, but if my dogs absolutely could not handle these, then I would probably use Eukanuba or Pro Plan. Good luck in your search and just remember that what food YOU choose for YOUR dogs is YOUR personal choice.



All very good advice.Couldn't have said it better myself...literally


----------



## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Well, http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-companion/2004-Hill- Alternative proteins in--.pdf While true the presenter was from ADM, the academics would have shredded him if it was a bunch of marketing hype.
> 
> There is also the common sense matter of all the fine, healthy dogs eating foods with varying levels of corn.
> 
> ...


Again, www.ddgs.umn.edu is the University of Minnesota Distillers Grains By-products Web Site and that article is written by someone with a heavily vested interest in the use of grain and grain derivatives. That article is not even in the ballpark of unbiased.

I don't think anyone has said Science Diet is a poisonous food that will kill your dog. People are just maintaining that it is not the best out there.

The vast majority of the time, when someone asks for recommendations, they are given information regarding different qualities and ingredients and encouraged to make the decision for themselves. It's only when someone chimes in with "Feed XYZ grocery brand full of grain and fillers" that people feel compelled to refute those posts.

It would be akin to being on a parenting board and seeing a thread "What should I feed my 5 year old for dinner?" and having someone post "Just feed them a happy meal." Sure, it's dinner. It'll work. It won't kill them. Millions of children eat happy meals and are healthy. But if you let a post like that stand unrefuted, people will get the idea that a happy meal is the recommended dinner for a five year old. That there's nothing better, that no one is disputing this recommendation. That would be a failure on the part of people who know better.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Great post, Ayanla.


----------



## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

Thank you Ayanla. That was an awesome post!!


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

nico8 said:


> I'm sure the people who eat at McDonald's everyday don't enjoy reading the nutritional facts of their double quarter-pounder with cheese while they munch away.



This is a good example of the invalid reasoning so common in discussions of dog food. 

The common brands of dog food aren't like poorly balanced fast food. They might better be compared to the carefully nutritionally balanced meals served in cost conscious institutions.


----------



## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Labsnothers said:


> This is a good example of the invalid reasoning so common in discussions of dog food.
> 
> The common brands of dog food aren't like poorly balanced fast food. They might better be compared to the carefully nutritionally balanced meals served in cost conscious institutions.


Like in correctional facilities and school cafeterias


----------



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> This is a good example of the invalid reasoning so common in discussions of dog food.
> 
> The common brands of dog food aren't like poorly balanced fast food. They might better be compared to the carefully nutritionally balanced meals served in cost conscious institutions.


You missed my point. I was getting at the fact that people who eat a Big Mac probably aren't scanning over the nutritional value while they eat it(or ever), because who wants to think about that while they enjoy their burger? Out of sight, out of mind. Seems to be the same way with you... you _hate_ these side-by-side comparisons of the ingredients in Science Diet(or even your beloved Pro Plan) with any of the higher end foods.

The comparison was between you and the person who eats at Mcdonald's, not Science Diet and the Big Mac.



Labsnothers said:


> This is a good example of the invalid reasoning so common in discussions of dog food.
> 
> The common brands of dog food aren't like poorly balanced fast food. *They might better be compared to the carefully nutritionally balanced meals served in cost conscious institutions*.




I think my dog deserves better than prison food but that's just because she's _extra_ special


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

nico8 said:


> You missed my point. I was getting at the fact that people who eat a Big Mac probably aren't scanning over the nutritional value while they eat it(or ever), because who wants to think about that while they enjoy their burger? Out of sight, out of mind. Seems to be the same way with you... you _hate_ these side-by-side comparisons of the ingredients in Science Diet(or even your beloved Pro Plan) with any of the higher end foods.
> 
> The comparison was between you and the person who eats at Mcdonald's, not Science Diet and the Big Mac.
> 
> ...


That's not the only point that seems to have been missed by some.. Even if it it slapped them upside the head they still wouldn't get it. But that's fine because the world (and this forum) would be boring if will all "got it" .


----------



## lovesaints (Oct 19, 2009)

SweetJeannie said:


> Hey everyone
> 
> I have 2 pomeranians.
> 
> ...


If you're not going to feed "people food" then feed Canidae or Innova, so they get some good things.

Science Diet and all those so called premium brands like Iams, Eukanuba, any of the Purina formulas are nothing but "crap in a bag". There is nothing wrong with feeding your dogs people food if it's the right things, like fresh veggies and fruits, chicken, turkey fresh whole grains (cooked well!)eggs and yogurt... if you are not going to feed them good whole fresh foods and only feed then dry or canned dog food, then make sure it is Innova or Canidae or Wellness a brand that has some good things in it!!!! It may cost more per bag, but you will save money in vet bills!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

The real way to save on vet bills is to find a breeder that takes health seriously when choosing breeding stock.


----------



## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> The real way to save on vet bills is to find a breeder that takes health seriously when choosing breeding stock.


The real way to save on vet bills is to rescue a mutt and feed a super high quality diet, ie. raw meat, edible raw bones, organs & *HIGH QUALITY* grain free kibbles.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Labsnothers said:


> The real way to save on vet bills is to find a breeder that takes health seriously when choosing breeding stock.


It's a little of both, genetics and nutrition. I like to think that genes draw a line that no amount of work on the part of the owner can cross. The dog can never be healthier or more physically fit than those genes will allow. I've seen people bike their dogs 4 miles a day, and wonder why they still don't have good muscle tone. The dog's genes just aren't capable of it.

But diet, exercise, and general care and management get you closer and closer to that line. Finding what works best your individual dog, will allow them to be the healthiest they are genetically capable of. 

My breeder often tells me Ollie is physically one of the best conditioned dogs she has bred. Ollie is well muscled without an ounce of fat on her, and her coat has the perfect color and texture. While the other owners have to bike their dogs two or three times a week to achieve this, me and Ollie are sitting around watching TV. 

And these are dogs are all from the same gene pull. It just requires a little more work on a daily basis for them than for me. But that is always the difference I hear between RAW and kibble. Kibble is mostly carbs and more carbs. And those carbohydrates are what puts fat on your dog. That is what makes their waist line disappear, and that horrible lump over their shoulder blades. Ollie stays solid and lean without maintenance work.


----------



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> Kibble is mostly carbs and more carbs. And those carbohydrates are what puts fat on your dog. That is what makes their waist line disappear, and that horrible lump over their shoulder blades.


I think this is an unfair generalization. _Most_ kibble is mostly carbs. Not all kibble though. I feed high protein/low carb kibble and I'd be quick to compare my dog's waistline with any out there.

I personally know of a lot of dogs that do eat a high carb kibble and are still at an ideal weight. Yes, many dogs out there are overweight from their high carb kibble but it's inaccurate to make such a broad generalization.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

nico8 said:


> I think this is an unfair generalization. _Most_ kibble is mostly carbs. Not all kibble though. I feed high protein/low carb kibble and I'd be quick to compare my dog's waistline with any out there.
> 
> I personally know of a lot of dogs that do eat a high carb kibble and are still at an ideal weight. Yes, many dogs out there are overweight from their high carb kibble but it's inaccurate to make such a broad generalization.


Your right, it was too broad. I didn't mean to include grain free foods. But even grain free foods do contain carbohydrates. They usually come from the addition of potatoes and sweet potatoes.

But I don't think most people realize how lean dogs are supposed to be. And in my experience to achieve that leanness with a grain based kibble diet, a physical exercise program is a requirement not a luxury. While on RAW, I'm not forced to stick to an exercise regime to keep Ollie in show condition. In fact, she is usually in better condition than her competition.


----------



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> But I don't think most people realize how lean dogs are supposed to be. And in my experience to achieve that leanness with a grain based kibble diet, a physical exercise program is a requirement not a luxury.


Yes, I can _definitely_ agree with that.


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> Your right, it was too broad. I didn't mean to include grain free foods. But even grain free foods do contain carbohydrates. They usually come from the addition of potatoes and sweet potatoes.
> 
> But I don't think most people realize how lean dogs are supposed to be. And in my experience to achieve that leanness with a grain based kibble diet, a physical exercise program is a requirement not a luxury. While on RAW, I'm not forced to stick to an exercise regime to keep Ollie in show condition. In fact, she is usually in better condition than her competition.


+1

You really need to watch the amount a dog eats on cheap kibble. It's a fine line between feeding enough so the dogs absorbs enough "real food" hidden in all the crap, and watching the waistline and fluid movement all dogs should have.


----------



## lovesaints (Oct 19, 2009)

I think that sums it up!!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> Kibble is mostly carbs and more carbs. And those carbohydrates are what puts fat on your dog. That is what makes their waist line disappear, and that horrible lump over their shoulder blades. Ollie stays solid and lean without maintenance work.


This is just plain wrong. I have seen thousands of fine, lean dogs eating Pro plan. Yes, I have actually see thousands of them. 

Your dog definitely should be narrower at the waist than the hips and chest. You
should be able to easily feel the ribs, but not see them. Each dog is different.
Standard recommendations are a good place to start, but each dog must have its
food and exercise adjusted to its individual needs. Here is a link to a good
illustrated guide, http://www.longliveyourdog.com/twoplus/RateYourDog.aspx


----------



## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

"STOP THE MADNESS!!!"
Canis Lupus Familiaris is a carnivore! Whether it's a wolf living in the mountains around my home here in eastern Idaho or my neighbors wirehaired cowdog mix mutt.
Grains aren't good for people nor are they good for cows how could they possibly be good for dogs?


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> This is just plain wrong. I have seen thousands of fine, lean dogs eating Pro plan. Yes, I have actually see thousands of them.


Sure you have. Statements like this just reveal your real agenda, because there is no such thing as a food that every single dog, out of thousands, does well on.

At this point, I have come to the conclusion that either you are actually working for one of these companies, or you are deeply emotionally invested in believing that they are good foods because you can't allow yourself to acknowledge that you aren't giving your dogs the best.

I think it's interesting that you never responded to Ayanla's excellent posts on the kirkland puppy food thread. Here they are, again, in their entirety. Because, as RaeganW said, they're that good that you should read them twice. Or three times.



Ayanla said:


> Here's the thing that keeps bugging me about Labsnothers rabid stance that the guide dog school (which has yet to be named) does their own independent research and has decided that Science Diet is the best food ever.
> 
> Guide dog schools, many (if not all) of which are non-profit entities, have little motivation or, more importantly, money to do independent nutritional research to narrow down the best food. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure they do health screenings and vet checks on the dogs. I doubt, however, they have a lab analyzing anything as far as the quality of their nutrition.
> 
> ...





Ayanla said:


> What you are talking about is anecdotal evidence, even if it's "thousands" of dogs. Asking people what their dog eats, and then doing a basic vet check, is not a scientific study.
> 
> A scientific study of different diets would be done with controls. Type, volume, and frequency of food would be recorded on a daily basis including treats and supplements (ideally there would be no treats or supplements to cloud the results). There would be regular blood tests to check for deficiencies. There would be fecal examination and weighing to determine digestibility of the food and volume of fecal matter. There would be other testing that I'm not even aware of (because I'm not a vet or researcher) Dogs would be followed their entire life span, or at least a significant number of years, with health issues noted and life span recorded. Only after obtaining a volume of data for a variety of foods could conclusions be drawn, and even then, due to the nature of testing on a living being outside of the lab, it would only be a correlation study. I am entirely confident that this guide dog school is not running these types of nutrition studies. This kind of research takes teams of scientists and lots of money and man hours. The school probably doesn't even give a thought to what the dogs are eating while in the foster home, outside of perhaps making note of it on their chart, so long as they are of a healthy weight at their checkup.
> 
> ...


----------



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

+1

Well said Ayanla and thanks for posting canteloupe. My guess is that you're like me...you hate letting hype go unchallenged  .


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

nico8 said:


> +1
> 
> Well said Ayanla and thanks for posting canteloupe. My guess is that you're like me...you hate letting hype go unchallenged  .


Definitely.

ETA: I fixed the second ayanla quote. When I first posted, it didn't include the quote on health stats in guide dogs.

Labsnoothers, if you care about the truth, you should read the Morris Animal Foundation's research at the link ayanla posted. More than 1000 people answered their survey. THIS is actual DATA, unlike your frequent, unsubstantiated claims that "thousands" of guide dogs eating purina and science diet are perfectly healthy.


----------



## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

canteloupe, Thanks for re-posting those! They are genius!


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Wlfdg said:


> canteloupe, Thanks for re-posting those! They are genius!


Aren't they? I gave Ayanla a heads up that I quoted her, and I hope she doesn't mind. I was really impressed.


----------



## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

*blushes*

Thanks for the compliments everyone.


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> Sure you have. Statements like this just reveal your real agenda, because there is no such thing as a food that every single dog, out of thousands, does well on.
> 
> At this point, I have come to the conclusion that either you are actually working for one of these companies, or you are deeply emotionally invested in believing that they are good foods because you can't allow yourself to acknowledge that you aren't giving your dogs the best.
> 
> I think it's interesting that you never responded to Ayanla's excellent posts on the kirkland puppy food thread. Here they are, again, in their entirety. Because, as RaeganW said, they're that good that you should read them twice. Or three times.


No that describes you and several others here, either a rep for somebody or too emotionally ties to the idea spending more on your dog benefits it. It seems you can't accept a different view. Pro Plan is the only food I have seen thousands of dogs that I knew were eating it. I have seen samples of dogs eating other common brands, and they look just as good. 

I was having a life over the weekend and missed that Morris foundation post. Who are they? I have never heard of them. Who funds them? I will respond to it is its thread.


----------



## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> No that describes you and several others here, either a rep for somebody or too emotionally ties to the idea spending more on your dog benefits it. It seems you can't accept a different view. Pro Plan is the only food I have seen thousands of dogs that I knew were eating it. I have seen samples of dogs eating other common brands, and they look just as good.
> 
> I was having a life over the weekend and missed that Morris foundation post. Who are they? I have never heard of them. Who funds them? I will respond to it is its thread.


You should be happy with that source, since the Morris Animal Foundation was funded by proceeds of Hill's Science Diet sales up until the 1960's. The original founder of the Morris Animal Foundation and Hill's Packaging teamed up to create what later became the prescription line of Science Diet. 

I'm sure the foundation maintains close ties with Hill's to this day. 

I felt comfortable posting the survey anyway because, even if I assume that the Morris Animal Foundation is biased because of it's ties to Hill's, there's nothing to be gained by any particular diet maker in presenting the health facts of guide dogs without nutritional information, therefore it's reasonable to conclude that this survey is presented without bias. It states the data collected and the methods used to collect it.


----------



## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers, I spend next to nothing for my dogs food. My dogs live on game meat/organs that I hunt, wild salmon that a friend gives me that he can't sell, free range beef/organs that I get for working on a friends ranch and dried up ewes that we buy for very little from local sheep herders. We spend less than $25.00 a month on EVO kibble that we supplement their diet with. We keep it just in case we aren't in position to feed raw. Which has happened when we had to stay at friends houses when the mountain pass closes due to avalanches.

Grains are garbage for all consumers! They even make ungulates and pigs develop unhealthy levels and types of adipose tissue. How can you believe that it's good to feed them to a carnivore?


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Wlfdg said:


> Labsnothers, I spend next to nothing for my dogs food. My dogs live on game meat/organs that I hunt, wild salmon that a friend gives me that he can't sell, free range beef/organs that I get for working on a friends ranch and dried up ewes that we buy for very little from local sheep herders. We spend less than $25.00 a month on EVO kibble that we supplement their diet with. We keep it just in case we aren't in position to feed raw. Which has happened when we had to stay at friends houses when the mountain pass closes due to avalanches.
> 
> Grains are garbage for all consumers! They even make ungulates and pigs develop unhealthy levels and types of adipose tissue. How can you believe that it's good to feed them to a carnivore?


Labsnothers whole argument is this: "*They seem to survive on it*" Which is extremely weak.

We all understand that animals (us included) can survive on junk.


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Bully, if you had any real arguments, you wouldn't have to distort what I say.


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Bully, if you had any real arguments, you wouldn't have to distort what I say.


I'm not - go read your posts


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I was having a life over the weekend and missed that Morris foundation post. Who are they? I have never heard of them. Who funds them? I will respond to it is its thread.


Funny you should say that. You actually did post on that thread after Ayanla's posts, you just chose not respond to them.

Probably because you had nothing to say.


----------



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> Funny you should say that. You actually did post on that thread after Ayanla's posts, you just chose not respond to them.
> 
> Probably because you had nothing to say.


Raise your hand if you've noticed a pattern there...


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

nico8 said:


> Raise your hand if you've noticed a pattern there...


Yeah, no kidding...

S/he still hasn't responded on that thread, despite saying s/he would now.


----------



## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I am still having other priorities and haven't seen that thread and haven't taken time to dig it up. Of course, I have no financial interest in any food.


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I am still having other priorities and haven't seen that thread and haven't taken time to dig it up. Of course, I have no financial interest in any food.


No interest of any kind in food, we know. 

Why don't you invite the owner of the guide dog school on here? Maybe we can educate them and help the dogs directly.


----------

