# Best book on Dog Training?



## bladerunner6 (Apr 24, 2009)

We are adopting a 1.5 year old dog from a local rescue. We have had a dog before but she was raised from a puppy by my wife.

This dog is quite smart and seems trainable and we would like to refine her just a bit.

Someone suggested something by the Dog Whisperer. A local bookstore has "A Member of the Family" in stock.

Does anyone recommend this or any other book?

TIA

Mike


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

The dog whisperer book is frankly, crap. 

I would recommend the following books (in order of preference): 
For basic obedience: 
The Power Of Positive Dog Training - Pat Miller
Pigs Fly - Obedience Training For Impossible Dogs - Jane Killion
Family Friendly Dog Training - Patricia McConnell

For learning HOW to train and communicate with your dog
Don't Shoot The Dog - Karen Pryor
The Other End Of The Leash - Patricia McConnell
For The Love Of A Dog - Patricia McConnell

Tricks & fun stuff
Clicker Training With Your Dog - Peggy Tillman
101 Dog Tricks - Kyra Sundance (buy it used, it's not WONDERFUL, but it's a good format and decent little reference)


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Agree! The only book I'd add to the list is one on body language....either Brenda Aloff or Roger Abrantes....both have Dog Language in the title.


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## bladerunner6 (Apr 24, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> The dog whisperer book is frankly, crap.
> 
> I would recommend the following books (in order of preference):
> For basic obedience:
> ...


Okay, so you feel the Dog Whisperer is crap?

Why?

Data to back that up please?

Thanks.

I am not saying you don't have a valid viewpoint, just saying something is crap is really not informative at all.

Mike


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

All the Cesar Milan books are excellent, but somewhat repetitive. Get the first one. Its NOT a dog training book. Its more important. Its about your relationship with the dog and what you need to do to have a well balanced, well behaved pet. I think it gives terrific much needed advice - from someone who understands that dogs are animals and not 4 legged humans. Many people on this Board hate Cesar Millan; and many others think he is great. Read his stuff and decide for yourself.

Otherwise there are a million "training" books out there and a million sources on the internet. Try different stuff and see what feels best for you and your dog. No best method or best book.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Do a quick search on the Dogforums and you'll see, Mike.

I agree with the book suggestions you've been given here by Tooneydogs and Dogstar.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

bladerunner6 said:


> Okay, so you feel the Dog Whisperer is crap?
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


DW pros: 
He's got phenomenal timing and a LOT of (probably unconcious) physical presence that he uses to control (or dominate, depending on how you feel about this method of control) dogs. He's also a marketing GENIUS, and has phenomenal timing for applying corrections (or praise/treats, for that matter.) 

Cons: 99.999% of dog owners (and trainers) cannot replicate these traits. 

Timing is essential in ANY training method- if your dog doesn't get the feedback ("what you just did was good/bad") with appropriate timing, you'll have a VERY hard time training him/her. Period. So there's going to be a learning curve with ANY training method while you get the mechanical skills down to reward (or punish) with appropriate timing. HOWEVER - if you're using positive methods, you're a lot less likely to damage your relationship with the dog (or the dog himself!) with poorly timed rewards. 

His books are very poorly written, IMO (to be fair, I suspect they're ghost written) and really shouldn't be marketed as training books so much as 'how to think about your dog' books. (For example, "The Other End Of The Leash", which I recommended above, recommends only a very few specific exercises to work on with your dog, which is why I haven't listed it as a training book. The DW books are in this same catagory, but with less science and more marketing.)

A couple of quick links: http://4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm


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## bladerunner6 (Apr 24, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> DW pros:
> He's got phenomenal timing and a LOT of (probably unconcious) physical presence that he uses to control (or dominate, depending on how you feel about this method of control) dogs. He's also a marketing GENIUS, and has phenomenal timing for applying corrections (or praise/treats, for that matter.)
> 
> Cons: 99.999% of dog owners (and trainers) cannot replicate these traits.
> ...


Thanks for the analysis, that was helpful.

Just saying something is crap really does not give me any useful information for making a decision.

Mike


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I agree with all the above. I think you will have far more success if you keep the DW as entertainment and instead use the books as listed. 

Another book I would add to the list (has a DVD with it) is by Brenda Aloff "Get Connected With Your Dog." 

A step by step "how to" book by Pamela Dennison is "The Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training." Excellant book.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

I can't really say I recommend Millan's books for training a dog, but "Be the Pack Leader" is very good for understanding the importance of the dynamics in the family. Watching his program was much more valuable to me than his books have been. 

I agree with the book recommendations that have been given, having read most of them after my dogs were adults. But I recommend balancing them with the ideas and philosophy practiced by Cesar Millan. I'm of the opinion that if you get input from various types of sources and then pick and choose what's right for you and your dogs, you'll do great. Carry a large toolbox, then you'll always have the right tool for the job. 

I love this little article I saw recently: Training Philosophy It's agility-related, but applies for all dogs.


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## sicklyscott (Apr 21, 2009)

My wife and I are adopting our first dog Saturday, in preparation we picked up the Dog Whisperer book (don't remember which one) and quite honestly it seems like it geared itself towards dogs that were already complete wrecks. I also found the book to be very repetitive, the last two chapters could have substituted for the entire book, it was quite a waste in my opinion. The only thing I learned from it was calm - assertive and "energy" (which really sounds like a bunch of crap until you see other dogs and their owners).

I'll have to take a look at the list above, I'm sure we'll definately be needing some more material on training.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Read any of these books and you'll quickly realize why CM's books are better served as fire place kindling material. 

http://www.sfspca.org/resources/library/for-academy-students/recommended-reading-list.pdf

BTW, I've read CM's first book, and many on the list above. The difference is simple; CM is a dominance theorist, and dominance theory is really a hypothesis, one that's never been proven with any living creature on the planet. Where as the books above are well established in science (the facts as we know them, not some construct like dominance theory).


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Read any of these books and you'll quickly realize why CM's books are better served as fire place kindling material.
> 
> http://www.sfspca.org/resources/library/for-academy-students/recommended-reading-list.pdf
> 
> BTW, I've read CM's first book, and many on the list above. The difference is simple; CM is a dominance theorist, and dominance theory is really a hypothesis, one that's never been proven with any living creature on the planet. Where as the books above are well established in science (the facts as we know them, not some construct like dominance theory).


For all the criticism of Cesar, he does get results with his methods. The thing that has to be understood though is that these methods are not the best methods to use to instill a behavior in a dog. They're probably not the best methods to use on most dogs. That being said, they do have a basis in the dog training world IMO. The one thing that any two dog trainers will agree on is that a third dog trainer is dead wrong.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> For all the criticism of Cesar, he does get results with his methods. The thing that has to be understood though is that these methods are not the best methods to use to instill a behavior in a dog. They're probably not the best methods to use on most dogs. That being said, they do have a basis in the dog training world IMO. The one thing that any two dog trainers will agree on is that a third dog trainer is dead wrong.


Broken clocks are right twice a day...doesn't give anyone reason to use a broken clock to tell time.

His results are MADE FOR TV...doesn't give anyone reason to believe results are "gotten" by his broken clock.


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## bladerunner6 (Apr 24, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Broken clocks are right twice a day...doesn't give anyone reason to use a broken clock to tell time.
> 
> His results are MADE FOR TV...doesn't give anyone reason to believe results are "gotten" by his broken clock.


You are agreeing he does get results, you are just saying none of it has to do with his methods?

Mike


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

bladerunner6 said:


> You are agreeing he does get results, you are just saying none of it has to do with his methods?
> 
> Mike


I would agree CM can get results with his methods - though I'm not sure if we would agree that those results are adequate or preferred by handlers/trainers or by the dog. Despite this, the results of his methods can easily be explained with learning theory or simple logic. What I would not agree with is that CM's logic (dominance theory) is the reason for his results, nor would I agree dominance theory justifies the methods he chooses.


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## bladerunner6 (Apr 24, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I would agree CM can get results with his methods - though I'm not sure if we would agree that those results are adequate or preferred by handlers/trainers or by the dog. Despite this, the results of his methods can easily be explained with learning theory or simple logic. What I would not agree with is that CM's logic (dominance theory) is the reason for his results, nor would I agree dominance theory justifies the methods he chooses.


I am not saying he is right or wrong: I just want to find out what is right for our dog.

A rational discourse on this issue could be productive.

I will say this, I did borrow a couple of books from the library by other authors: The Dummies (or Idiots one) and "For the love of the dog"

Mike


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

bladerunner6 said:


> I will say this, I did borrow a couple of books from the library by other authors: The Dummies (or Idiots one) and "For the love of the dog"


There are likely a thousand books for Dummies on dog training...Pam Dennison's book would be my recommendation. 

And Patricia McConnell's book, _For the Love of A Dog_, I wouldn't classify as a "training" book. Great book, nevertheless, but more about the relationship with dogs than training dogs.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

At the risk of this becoming a a discussion about Cesar, dealing with troubled dogs is what he does best, but he has an underlying philosophy that is applicable to all dogs. There's a lot more to Cesar than dominance theory and harsh rehabilitation techniques. That's just the TV show - problem dogs. 

The philosophy of being (to use jargon) a calm, assertive leader, and using exercise, discipline and affection, is a great philosophy to follow. Yes, it's been done before, lots of times, but no one has gotten the information to the wider public more effectively than Cesar Millan. 

Whether a person advocates pack theory or not is a personal choice. I actually have a pack of large dogs and I am thrilled with their behavior and our relationships, much of which is based on what I've learned from watching The Dog Whisperer for years. I also clicker train my dogs and use lots and lots of positive reinforcement. I dabble in Natural Dog Training and Tsuro Dog Training. Besides Operant Conditioning as a Learning Theory, there's also Social Learning and Insight Learning. There's really no need to burn anything.  There's so much wonderful information out there. 

My point is that being as widely-educated as possible on various techniques and philosophies will allow you to pick the one (or more) that works best for you. If you burn all the Cesar Millan books (or the Ian Dunbar books) without considering them, you may be missing the method that is best for you, your dog and your particular situation.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I would agree CM can get results with his methods - though I'm not sure if we would agree that those results are adequate or preferred by handlers/trainers or by the dog. Despite this, the results of his methods can easily be explained with learning theory or simple logic. What I would not agree with is that CM's logic (dominance theory) is the reason for his results, nor would I agree dominance theory justifies the methods he chooses.


I would argue that the average dog owner isn't so concerned with theory and more concerned with results. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that dogs should be handled 100% by Cesar's theories at all. All I'm saying is that his methods (regardless of the theory behind them) have some validity in some situations. They're certainly not appropriate in every single situation. 

When people look at Cesar I think they miss the fact that he works pretty exclusively with problem dogs. He's not trying to teach a dog to sit or stay or fetch or whatever. There are much, much better techniques out there to teach those things. I do agree with Cesar that you're probably not going to fix an aggressive dog with a clicker. There's a time and a place for everything. Cesar's techniques are just another tool in the tool box.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike:

What you may or may not have noticed in our discussion here is that what everyone wants is that which will give you the best results for you and your dog. The book list suggested will lead you on that path and you and your dog will have fun getting there with the least chance of negative side effects. 

The DW TV show IS entertaining. 

Meanwhile, I have read and used the techniques in most of the books originally listed and I get compliments from strangers on my dog's good behavior. I have had people stop and WATCH me working her and have had many a person say that she is such a HAPPY dog and so "obviously is devoted to me.." 

I smile and say thank you (tho I believe she is really devoted to the toy we play Tug with and the Spam and string cheese she thinks I am an unlimted source of.... and the fact that she finds it extremely entertaining that I can sometimes be so DULL). 

So, if you want that sort of reaction from your dog, you will give the suggestions here a whirl. You have nothing to lose. Other techniques will still be there.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> I would argue that the average dog owner isn't so concerned with theory and more concerned with results.


A agree, they shouldn’t be concerned with dominance theory. And I would include dominance theorists. 



> Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that dogs should be handled 100% by Cesar's theories at all. All I'm saying is that his methods (regardless of the theory behind them) have some validity in some situations. They're certainly not appropriate in every single situation.


 As you’ve said CM’s methods are NOT for every dog. The same can’t be said of learning theory. Learning theory is applicable to every dog, slug, bird…if it lives or breathes, their behavior can be explained/modified with learning theory. All other explanations are either an extension of learning theory, or some invalidated construct to explain phenomena. 



> When people look at Cesar I think they miss the fact that he works pretty exclusively with problem dogs.


 I would disagree. He works with dogs who’s behavior doesn’t conform to his guardian’s needs. The dog and his behavior are quite normal/natural…not necessarily problematic. If we looked at his show for a basis he really only deals with dogs that’ve lived in the absence of basic training. 



> I do agree with Cesar that you're probably not going to fix an aggressive dog with a clicker.


 You and Cesar would be wrong. Behaviorists do it everyday, with real success. For you and Cesar would be ignoring a basic principle in learning theory…classical conditioning. 



> There's a time and a place for everything. Cesar's techniques are just another tool in the tool box.


 Techniques yes, and you might even find them in the bottom of my tool bag, but please excuse the rust, I hardly need those tools. Logic, no. Flawed logic is flawed logic, and I don’t have time to knowingly practice flawed logic, and I don’t recommend anyone else do it either.


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## Aussie_Lover (Apr 13, 2009)

My favorite is "Mother Knows Best - the Natural Way to Train your Dog" by Carol Lea Benjamin. I used it with my first Aussie 20 years ago, lent it to someone and never got it back, and bought it again 5 years ago when I got my new Aussie! It's worked for me with both dogs.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

bladerunner6 said:


> I am not saying he is right or wrong: I just want to find out what is right for our dog.
> 
> A rational discourse on this issue could be productive.
> 
> ...


Well, heck, Brad Pattison (shock collar abusive idiot)'s methods work, if you only want a dog that DOESN'T jump, doesn't run, and doesn't do anything but sit and wait to be zapped. And if you really MUST use physically coersive techniques? Go straight to the source and get the Koehler Method of Dog Training books. They're VERY step by step, very focused on getting behaviors specific to competition obedience, and 'fair' in that they teahc you to teach the behavior before you use corrections.

Just because a method produces some good results doesn't mean it's a good method. For me, the proof is that it produces good results the vast majority of the time and in the cases where there is not a good result, there is at least not a bad one.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I would agree CM can get results with his methods - though I'm not sure if we would agree that those results are adequate or preferred by handlers/trainers or by the dog. Despite this, the results of his methods can easily be explained with learning theory or simple logic. What I would not agree with is that CM's logic (dominance theory) is the reason for his results, nor would I agree dominance theory justifies the methods he chooses.


I don't see CM's methods as dominance.. Well some of his methods surely are.

Most of the tactics I see is more leadership, and how to be a leader. Not a problem I've ever had with a dog, so not so useful for me.

If you aren't your dog's leader, most dogs will be happy to be take leadership. It's a dogs social nature to take leadership, or seize it if it sees opportunity or need to.

He seems to use dominance only to the point he needs to with specific dogs/problems to shake them out of an assumed leadership role IMO.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

TxRider said:


> I don't see CM's methods as dominance.. Well some of his methods surely are.
> 
> Most of the tactics I see is more leadership, and how to be a leader. Not a problem I've ever had with a dog, so not so useful for me.
> 
> ...


Everyone has their own definition of "leadership", with "addendums" depending on the context. It's a pointless practice IMO. All we need to know about our dogs when we train them is...possession of resources follows the 9/10th law; and how, as my dog's guardian, can I maintain control over those resources. Beyond that all we need to know is, do you want more behavior or less? Answering that question does not involve "leadership". You just need a sense for what you want and a means to get there. Coincidentally, your dog wants the same thing. 

What the dog is thinking, at the nth degree, regarding a "position" is meant only as an exercise in rhetoric. It has no real application when training a dog.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy deep meanings to things, and overexplantions when they paint an interesting story, but let's be real...in being a responsible guardian for our dogs, what part of it suggests its antithesis is okay sometimes or at all?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

bladerunner6 said:


> I am not saying he is right or wrong: I just want to find out what is right for our dog.


That quest might take you to the 'dark side'....and that's not all bad.
Good trainers/instructors and even casual handlers have been known to visit the 'enemy camp' to perhaps pick up a tip or two that can be modified to their own liking or their own dog......same with the books.
While we often dis Koehler (force train) and Milan (intimidation train) the methods WORK...so does Play training and Purely Positive. There are often side effects to the various methods though. Even Play training can have a downside...ie; a dog that is not comfortable in stressful situations.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

TooneyDogs said:


> That quest might take you to the 'dark side'....and that's not all bad.
> Good trainers/instructors and even casual handlers have been known to visit the 'enemy camp' to perhaps pick up a tip or two that can be modified to their own liking or their own dog......same with the books.
> While we often dis Koehler (force train) and Milan (intimidation train) the methods WORK...so does Play training and Purely Positive. There are often side effects to the various methods though. Even Play training can have a downside...ie; a dog that is not comfortable in stressful situations.


I personally feel that if you write off an entire school of thought training wise that you're making a huge mistake. The fact of the matter is you can bring the same problem to three different trainers and get three different responses and every single one of them can work.

Look at a common problem that shows up here - dog pulling on the leash. How do we correct this and which method works? Some recommend the "tree" routine or turning and walking the other way. Does this method work? Absolutely. Some recommend changing speeds and when the dog is by your side give them treats. Does this work? Yes, it does. Some recommend a gentle leader or no-pull harness. Does this work? Sure. Others recommend sliding the leash up under the chin so the dog can't pull. Guess what. This works too.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

hulkamaniac said:


> Cesar's techniques are just another tool in the tool box.


Okay, sure, if you want to call them that... but Cesar's techniques are a tool that should be employed by ONLY professionals like Cesar. I do not understand why the caveat on his show -- that his methods should not be used at home, by pet owners -- is repeatedly ignored. Cesar has skill with dogs and their body language that most pet owners don't. If you want your dog to be trained with Cesar's methods, send him to Cesar... don't watch his show and start alpha rolling your dog every time he barks at guests.

To get back to the topic at hand, some good books have already been recommended. Brenda Aloff, Jean Donaldson, Stanley Coren and Patricia McConnell are good. If you are looking for a _training_ book specifically (not a book on dog psychology, which I would classify the above authors' works as) I would check out Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training". Excellent book, very simple and very effective.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

rosemaryninja said:


> If you want your dog to be trained with Cesar's methods, send him to Cesar... don't watch his show and start alpha rolling your dog every time he barks at guests.


And that's the problem with assumptions. When someone says they like Cesar or use his methods, people assume that they are alpha rolling their dogs for barking, which Cesar has NEVER done.  That mindset is what *maintains the rift* between the two imaginary camps and causes people to think in terms of "the enemy camp" or "the dark side" as was mentioned earlier. There are no camps, except in the minds of people who wish to see it that way.  It's all for the good of dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FourIsCompany said:


> It's all for the good of dog.


Or ratings.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

rosemaryninja said:


> Okay, sure, if you want to call them that... but Cesar's techniques are a tool that should be employed by ONLY professionals like Cesar. I do not understand why the caveat on his show -- that his methods should not be used at home, by pet owners -- is repeatedly ignored. Cesar has skill with dogs and their body language that most pet owners don't. If you want your dog to be trained with Cesar's methods, send him to Cesar... don't watch his show and start alpha rolling your dog every time he barks at guests.


I would not necessarily disagree with that. Cesar is an expert at reading dogs body language and giving the dog instant input on their behavior. Not sure if this comes to him naturally or if he's developed it over time or not. Either way I think this is a huge part of why his techniques work so well for him.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Or ratings.


LOL.  It's true. His show is very popular and he's a businessperson, no doubt. T-shirts, books, tapes and DVDs... But don't all dog behaviorists and trainers (who make a living doing it) sell their wares? He's just very successful. If he has changed the way he works with dogs, it's to show more of the "positive" aspects of working with dogs, like clickers and treating. Does it bring up his ratings? Probably. But I'm glad he tries to wipe out the Millan vs. Positive imaginary rift. _THAT_ is an invention of the "Positive Only" set for the benefit of selling _their _books and other wares, in my opinion. 

What's more important to me than his business sense is that he's saved countless dogs from being put down needlessly. And he's getting some very important messages out there: _Treat your dogs like furry children and you may end up with a behavior problem on your hands. Neglect the dog's needs and you'll have issues later on. Dogs pick up on your energy. Prevention is the best tool against behavioral issues. Exercise is the best gift you can give your dog. Your relationship with your dog is all-important..._

I know there are people out there who think they're Cesar Millan incarnate  (I've run into them when I used to go to the dog park) and I *strongly *recommend that people DO NOT use his harsh techniques on their dogs! Call a professional. But there's all kinds of things happening on TV that shouldn't be tried at home. We have to lay the responsibility where it belongs (IMO) on the people who read the disclaimer and choose to ignore it. 

I wanted to say that I love Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training". It was one of the books I got before I got my first puppies. I also liked "How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With" by Clarice Rutherford and David H. Neil. But that is more for puppies.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FourIsCompany said:


> But don't all dog behaviorists and trainers (who make a living doing it) sell their wares?


Per CM, he is not a trainer. And I don't know any organization that recognizes CM as a behaviorist. So, no, "all" dog behaviorists and trainers don't sell their wares as CM does. Many of them are concerned only for their customer (dog and guardian) and choose to employ ethics that would not, for the sake of entertainment, leave them choking, jerking, kicking, scruff shaking, alpha rolling, or intimidating a dog. 



> But I'm glad he tries to wipe out the Millan vs. Positive imaginary rift. _THAT_ is an invention of the "Positive Only" set for the benefit of selling _their _books and other wares, in my opinion.


I don't see how side stepping his critics is an attempt to "wipe out" the rift. And I'm sorry, if you believe his critics exist to sell books, and they aren't speaking from a welfare perspective, you're fooling yourself. 

Why else would an organization like the AVSAB go out of their way to discredit the archaic logic CM uses? What exactly are they selling? 



> What's more important to me than his business sense is that he's saved countless dogs from being put down needlessly. And he's getting some very important messages out there: _Treat your dogs like furry children and you may end up with a behavior problem on your hands. Neglect the dog's needs and you'll have issues later on. Dogs pick up on your energy. Prevention is the best tool against behavioral issues. Exercise is the best gift you can give your dog. Your relationship with your dog is all-important..._


If we're going to give him credit for his "message", we must also give him credit for reversing dog training? I've sat behind a surrender desk, and if I'm being frank, people are completely ignorant about how to raise a dog, and so too the "professionals" they choose. I was actually shocked by how many references to CM I was given when a dog was being surrendered. I think this message should have just as much a voice as CM. 

I'm not concerned with what CM does with his private business. I haven't seen any documentation of the "countless" dogs he's saved, so I can't comment on that. But his TV show does effect the public, and his archaic methods are effecting the public in a negative way. That's been my experience, and I have nothing to sell either.



> We have to lay the responsibility where it belongs (IMO) on the people who read the disclaimer and choose to ignore it.


No doubt, and when someone feels the need to advocate his methods, I'm likely one of the first to remind them of why his methods come with a caveat. 

This isn't a "positive" movement...It very much has to do with the welfare of our favored companions.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Just curious Curbside Prophet, have you ever read any of Cesar's books?


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

I often wonder if the Cesar Milan critics have ever read his books or really thought about his main messages about leadership, exercise, discipline, energy. In reality, 95% if what he says should be pretty uncontroversial and IMHO needs to be heard by a lot of dog owners.

In terms of his work with problem dogs, it seems that many see him give a dog a little poke and immediately go into a fit over this 'abuse'. In today's protected sanitized western society many people don't feel comfortable being physical with a dog, so they criticize anybody who is. {Mildred, he poked the dog! With his hand ! OMG!!!! HE TOUCHED THE DOG I SAW IT HE TOUCHED HIM !!! Look the dog looks confused, unhappy! He's not allowed on the couch ! What abuse!! THEY NEED TO CALL A BEHAVIORIST !!!!!!}.

There is also no doubt a fair amount of professional jealousy out there over his success. Shouldn't be really. The show is not about dogs as much as it is about people being aware and in control of their own emotions/ energy, thinking positively, overcoming their own fears and inhibitions. It really is quite brilliant television.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> Just curious Curbside Prophet, have you ever read any of Cesar's books?





Curbside Prophet said:


> BTW, I've read CM's first book...





peppy264 said:


> In terms of his work with problem dogs, it seems that many see him give a dog a little poke and immediately go into a fit over this 'abuse'. In today's protected sanitized western society many people don't feel comfortable being physical with a dog, so they criticize anybody who is. {Mildred, he poked the dog! With his hand ! OMG!!!! HE TOUCHED THE DOG I SAW IT HE TOUCHED HIM !!! Look the dog looks confused, unhappy! He's not allowed on the couch ! What abuse!! THEY NEED TO CALL A BEHAVIORIST !!!!!!}.
> 
> There is also no doubt a fair amount of professional jealousy out there over his success. Shouldn't be really. The show is not about dogs as much as it is about people being aware and in control of their own emotions/ energy, thinking positively, overcoming their own fears and inhibitions. It really is quite brilliant television.


I think this answers all your misunderstandings.
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Read it. Not very persuasive at all. 

"Cesar's method's put stress on dogs. Stress is bad. Cesar is bad" Very deep. LOL

or
_"One problem with punishment-based methods is that they assume the dog will learn what it is doing is "wrong," thereby giving dogs the humanlike ability to determine right from wrong."_
So now we're not even allowed to teach the dog what it is wrong to do. LOL

and I love:
_Many of the professionals who have spoken out against the show are immensely successful in their own right. They have the respect of their colleagues, are professors at universities and popular speakers and authors. 
_
and none of them want to be making $10 M a year on national TV......

The article is just the author's opinion. 

Moreover, the author (like most CM critics) is focusing on a few techniques used in the show for rehabilitating dogs with big problems. That's irrelevant to most dog owners. Milan's main messages for all dog owners are about leadership, exercise, discipline, energy. Follow them from Day 1 and you'll never have to lay a hand on your dog.; a pssst will suffice.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

peppy264 said:


> Read it. Not very persuasive at all.


What makes you think I'm trying to persuade your opinion? What makes you think I care for your opinion? Either you can find the logic in the author's statements, or you can't, or refuse to. The last two I can't help you. 



> "Cesar's method's put stress on dogs. Stress is bad. Cesar is bad" Very deep. LOL


It's not about stress. It's about ethics. Ethics that CM avoids for entertainment value. You may not be aware of the impact stress can have on behavior mod, or refuse to, but standing from a critical point of view, ignoring these facts doesn't shed well on your arguments. 



> or
> _"One problem with punishment-based methods is that they assume the dog will learn what it is doing is "wrong," thereby giving dogs the humanlike ability to determine right from wrong."_
> So now we're not even allowed to teach the dog what it is wrong to do. LOL


You really don't have a feel for respondent behavior, do you? Or how, if not addressed appropriately, punishment/reinforcement will not be effective. And that very much brings in a question of ethics. The author is right, those who overlook respondent behavior are being anthropomorphic, no matter how lycanthropic they think they're being. 



> and I love:
> _Many of the professionals who have spoken out against the show are immensely successful in their own right. They have the respect of their colleagues, are professors at universities and popular speakers and authors.
> _
> and none of them want to be making $10 M a year on national TV......


If you're point is $$$ drives CM, I agree. If not, your argument doesn't follow. 



> The article is just the author's opinion.


It's one author's opinion, and those who employ a bit of logic will follow it clearly. I can't speak for the CM zealots. But if you read the AVSAB position statement, it's NOT just one authority with this opinion. 



> Moreover, the author (like most CM critics) is focusing on a few techniques used in the show for rehabilitating dogs with big problems.


Big problems made by CM, I agree. If you've never seen a true behaviorist work, many of the dogs on CM's show are NOT big problems. But having read your comments, I trust that you have NOT seen a true behaviorist work. 



> Milan's main messages for all dog owners are about leadership, exercise, discipline, energy. Follow them from Day 1 and you'll never have to lay a hand on your dog.; a pssst will suffice.


Now that's worth laughing at. 
Tssst!


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Another good book is IN FOCUS - DEVELOPING A WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR PERFORMANCE DOG by Deborah Jones & Judy Keller. It's not a book that's just for Agility, Rally, etc, but the things in the book can be used for just about any kind of training. The main focus of the book is to get your dog to focus on you. Very good book.....


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## alan-kinsella (Apr 21, 2009)

Is the "Family Friendly Dog Training" book any good and is it only for puppies or can it work for a 10 month boxer ???


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

alan-kinsella said:


> Is the "Family Friendly Dog Training" book any good and is it only for puppies or can it work for a 10 month boxer ???


I think it's good for any age, personally. That and Power Of Positive Dog Training both really do a good job of laying things out in a logical order - if you follow their curriculum and put in the practice required, you'll have a very well behaved dog in no time.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Everyone has their own definition of "leadership", with "addendums" depending on the context. It's a pointless practice IMO. All we need to know about our dogs when we train them is...possession of resources follows the 9/10th law; and how, as my dog's guardian, can I maintain control over those resources. Beyond that all we need to know is, do you want more behavior or less? Answering that question does not involve "leadership". You just need a sense for what you want and a means to get there. Coincidentally, your dog wants the same thing.
> 
> What the dog is thinking, at the nth degree, regarding a "position" is meant only as an exercise in rhetoric. It has no real application when training a dog.


I agree for the most part, and it seems most of what CM does is just show owners how they are reinforcing the very behavior they don't want, and how to stop doing that and reinforce behavior that they do want. It's really simple stuff IMO. However you want to phrase it or represent it, he phrases it in a way he can get some people to understand, and that's ok.

Not something I've ever needed, I have never read a training book or used a trainer and I've never had a problem with a dog I couldn't figure out a way to resolve. Though I have made some mistakes along the way I regretted, the dogs didn't seem to hold it against me.

As for commercial success, I doubt it's all or even mostly CM that's responsible for that. I always assumed he helped some hollywood type out with a dog and they got an idea to use him to do a show for their own profit, and everyone else from publishers to dog toy companies is just piling on to cash in on his popularity. I'd do the same if given that opportunity.

Now you see a couple of other shows trying to cash in, and I'd expect a few more in the future.

I've decided to actually read a couple training books after coming here and reading though. I read "don't shoot the dog" last week but got limited new information from it. I'm going to read "control unleashed" next and probably the 101 dog tricks book as well.

I'm hoping to maybe pick up a couple of tips or ideas I haven't thought of for strengthening recall from the first, and mainly ideas for behaviors to train from the second.. Any opinions on those two books? Will I be wasting my money?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

TxRider said:


> I've decided to actually read a couple training books after coming here and reading though. I read "don't shoot the dog" last week but got limited new information from it. I'm going to read "control unleashed" next and probably the 101 dog tricks book as well.
> 
> I'm hoping to maybe pick up a couple of tips or ideas I haven't thought of for strengthening recall from the first, and mainly ideas for behaviors to train from the second.. Any opinions on those two books? Will I be wasting my money?


Don't forget your local library can be a valuable resource. No need to buy all these books if you can read them for free. 

I have to agree with you on _Don't Shoot the Dog_. It can be an eye opening read, but if you've got your eyes already open, you'll leave feeling empty. 

_Control Unleashed_, however,is an excellent read, with some worth while approaches to include in your dog's training. I'm not too familiar with the 101 dog tricks book. 

For recall though, Leslie Nelson's book Really Reliable Recall is excellent.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Don't forget your local library can be a valuable resource. No need to buy all these books if you can read them for free.
> 
> I have to agree with you on _Don't Shoot the Dog_. It can be an eye opening read, but if you've got your eyes already open, you'll leave feeling empty.
> 
> ...


Ahh I had read about really reliable recall, but forgot about it.

That may be better for me than control unleashed.. I think I'll read both. Hope has three strong drives, food, proximity (velcro dog) and prey. Only one of which seems to drive her to recall, not liking to be where I'm not. She's already been reinforced badly for bad recall apparently, lotta work to do and I want to mull over all the ideas I can get.

The 101 dog tricks just sounds like fun ideas for training and a fun way to spend time with my dog and build a really good relationship. Besides who can be afraid of a big GSD if she bows and gives high fives and hides her eyes and such and has fun doing it... Sit, down, get up and gimme five she's learned in our first three weeks, and it's already getting old.

http://www.101dogtricks.com/pages/index.html

BTW the link to the South Park episode was hilarious... There's always a good bit of truth to any good satire.

The other one I was looking over was "natural dog training" and an exercise called "pushing" to get your dog to open up more using prey drive in interacting with you. I may try that as well, and see how she reacts. She's a bit too reserved with me, won't pull playing tug, won't wrestle etc. at all, dunno whether it's lack of confidence with me, or that she's just never played with a human in her 3 yrs.

The only time she gets at all physical is when I come home from work, I actually let her jump on me and get as physical as she wants because it's the only time she actually will.

Pushing link


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

TxRider said:


> The other one I was looking over was "natural dog training" and an exercise called "pushing" to get your dog to open up more using prey drive in interacting with you.


Here's a video of my husband doing the pushing exercise with two of our dogs. The one thing he's doing wrong is that he holds up too high on Jaia's neck. He should be resisting down more on his chest. You can see the difference between Jaia and B'asia because I had been working with B'asia quite a bit by this time. 

And some think this exercise might encourage eager behavior as regards taking treats, but B'asia takes treats like a deer. She's very gentle under normal circumstances. I always finished the pushing exercise with a few treats using the "easy" command. 

Pushing Video


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

FourIsCompany said:


> Here's a video of my husband doing the pushing exercise with two of our dogs. The one thing he's doing wrong is that he holds up too high on Jaia's neck. He should be resisting down more on his chest. You can see the difference between Jaia and B'asia because I had been working with B'asia quite a bit by this time.
> 
> And some think this exercise might encourage eager behavior as regards taking treats, but B'asia takes treats like a deer. She's very gentle under normal circumstances. I always finished the pushing exercise with a few treats using the "easy" command.
> 
> Pushing Video


I tried it a little one night just to see how she would react, and she will push. 

Problem being I dunno if I can hold her back, her back legs are stronger than my arm is when I held her at her chest. She's got the leverage.

Question is, what difference has it made in your dog's attitude toward you and will it get the results I'm looking for. Or any bad possibilities anyone has experienced.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

I don't know of any bad experiences anyone has reported. 

B'asia has a high prey drive and she was very shy and fearful. She's come a long way and pushing was just one of the techniques we used on her. At that time, she would fetch a frisbee, but wouldn't return it or let anyone near her. We were working on getting her to return it and we were successful. She still prefers to hang on to it, but she will give it up if I ask (which I do sometimes to keep her practiced). Basically, Pushing helped her trust us enough to turn her "prey" over to us. 

This video was taken at the same time. It's some of the results of our natural dog training techniques we used. B'asia Frisbee


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

FourIsCompany said:


> I don't know of any bad experiences anyone has reported.
> 
> B'asia has a high prey drive and she was very shy and fearful. She's come a long way and pushing was just one of the techniques we used on her. At that time, she would fetch a frisbee, but wouldn't return it or let anyone near her. We were working on getting her to return it and we were successful. She still prefers to hang on to it, but she will give it up if I ask (which I do sometimes to keep her practiced). Basically, Pushing helped her trust us enough to turn her "prey" over to us.
> 
> This video was taken at the same time. It's some of the results of our natural dog training techniques we used. B'asia Frisbee


Hmm, Hope isn't really fearful, just more serious and reserved and a bit cautious but curious of new things, but she almost always goes straight to check it out if something makes her jump or react, she doesn't avoid it.

I just don't know where reserved part is coming from yet, trust, fear of getting hit, just doesn't like the activity or what yet. Then there's the predisone and antibiotics she's on effecting her behavior as well.

It's only been three weeks so I'm not going to worry about it yet, and I'm going to wait until the drugs are gone and then start to work on it in earnest.

She does have a high prey and herding drive. I'd like to use that. She'll -always- chase a tennis ball if I throw it, sometimes she brings it close and drops it a few times, then just chases it and walks away with it when she catches it. But she turns into a different dog when she see a squirrel, focused, alert and turned on. Basically the way all my other dogs were toward me without any effort on my part really..

What other things have you done to build drive and focus besides pushing?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

TxRider said:


> What other things have you done to build drive and focus besides pushing?


A good DVD recommendation if video is appealing to you too.

http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=V-SCH-BAL-2


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

TxRider said:


> What other things have you done to build drive and focus besides pushing?


We're not trying to _build _her drive. Just work with it. We play tug, and use several of the techniques and exercises described on the Natural Dog Training page. We use a Flirt Pole (another video), but for focus, I use clicker training. 

I believe in variety. 

Edit: If you decide to use a flirt pole, there are safety precautions you'll want to take. If you want, PM me and I'll type them out.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Hmm funny thing happened yesterday. I use a cordless weed eater and Hope heard and saw it and went nuts about it..

She howled and barked and jumped and bit at it, leaped into the air as I tried to keep it away.. I've never seen her do that before...She would go after it till she dropped I think.

Hope a lure pole works that well... I'd like to get her that excited for some kind of toy, preferably a fetch toy like a frisbee or something..

I also ordered the three books I was talking about, I'll post back after I've read them.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Check out the Volhard books, they are excellent. 

"Control Unleashed", "When Pigs Fly" and "So your dog's not Lassie" are all great books. "Beyond Basic Obedience"., "Building Blocks for performance" and "Competition Obedience: A Balancing Act" are all superb books.

CM has a lot of good ideas, so I don't totally diss him. I've learned some stuff from him like I have from every other trainer.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

txcollies said:


> Check out the Volhard books, they are excellent.
> 
> "Control Unleashed", "When Pigs Fly" and "So your dog's not Lassie" are all great books. "Beyond Basic Obedience"., "Building Blocks for performance" and "Competition Obedience: A Balancing Act" are all superb books.
> 
> CM has a lot of good ideas, so I don't totally diss him. I've learned some stuff from him like I have from every other trainer.


When pigs fly looks like a good one.. I read a few pages on amazon's site. I think I'll get that one too.

I finally found one thing that has a higher value than zeroing in on squirrels and such and more than she has for any food so far, the stupid cordless weed eater. She goes nuts for it. Leaping, barking, and I even let her grab the plastic guard and she latches on and tugs it hard.. First time she's pulled on anything like that. 

A different dog than I've seen in her yet, all reservedness right out the window.. Reminded me of how my last dog viewed Frisbee and balls.

I couldn't even weedeat the back yard, she would have destroyed the french doors to the back..

Guess ya never know what'll inspire a prey drive. But I need to use that to my advantage somehow. See if I can transfer that drive to something more convenient through association..


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

I would really, really check out the Volhard "The Cainine Good Citizen: Every dog can be one" book. It covers all of the drives very well, and shows to to use those drives to your advantage.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

Some of my favorite books (training, not theory or relationship-building) that I've personally read:

How to Teach a New Dog Old Tricks
Control Unleashed
101 Dog Tricks

And more specialized ones for specific issues:

Click to Calm
Help for your Fearful Dog
Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding Behavior in Dogs

And, one of my very favorite "books" for basic training isn't a book at all, but Susan Ailsby's Training Levels, which are available online:

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/ Dog1/levels.html


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

nekomi said:


> Some of my favorite books (training, not theory or relationship-building) that I've personally read:
> 
> How to Teach a New Dog Old Tricks
> Control Unleashed
> ...


Well I picked up 101 dog tricks and control unleashed and have time to read through them a bit.

I was a bit disappointed with control unleashed. It's a good book for some I guess, and a good read, but it's really not for me. A bit too fluffy for me with all the biofeedback and massage and such. I don't know how often I'll be going back to it training my new dog. Seems like maybe a better book for women than men.

101 dog tricks is just the opposite, simple and to the point with tons of illustrations and brief concise explanations, more my style and it'll be helpful, I'll be using it a lot and going back to it many times. But I can see where a person such as a first time owner might not get enough from it to be successful.

I'll be picking up when pigs fly and giving that a read next. The preview pages I read at Amazon were good.

I've had Hope a little over a month now, and now that her ear infections are cured, and the drugs with all the behavioral side effects end this weekend I think between those books I'll have come up with a good training plan for her. Hard to read a new dog and get to know them when you only have one week of a stressed out dog in a new place, and then three weeks of multiple drug behavioral side effects.

So far it's only been working with trust, attention and focus mostly and that has been going very well.

The only big challenge I see in training is her one bad behavioral issue, a very strong prey drive for little furry things like cats and squirrels. I believe she would kill a cat in a second if given the opportunity from her attitude toward them.

Anyone know any good books that deal specifically with that issue? It's going to be a big problem as everyone in my family has cats, most of them live with dogs and aren't particularly scared of them.


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