# Opinions on breaking leash laws



## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

This topic isn't meant to stir up a debate, and I apologize in advance if it does. I was just wondering what people's opinions are on breaking leash laws in certain circumstances. We have wooded trails and swamps behind our neighbourhood. One side of the trails is surrounded by the river with water access and the other side is a wodded area. The trails take about 1-1.5 hour from end to end and there are no roads anywhere around. This area is the "unofficial" off leash dog park. I've only ever seen one dog that was leashed in this area. The signage says to use a leash, however; no one obeys. I take my dog hiking off leash daily in the trails. In the 6 months we have been doing this, I have only encountered a handful of people who are hiking without a dog. I ask them if they are okay with dogs and if they are then we proceed. If not, I will walk my dog by on leash. From what I know, there have never been any complaints and the other dog owners in the area that have been using these trails for years, said they have never had any issues. It never really occured to me to be concerned, but I'm wondering what the general consensus of this is. I don't want to be irresponsible to my neighbours.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

To me, leash laws are very, very important. But thats because my dog was aggressive-reactive on leash. If your (general your) dog came trondling up to mine, Bae would rip into your dog so hard. Off leash, they would be the bestest of friends. But you'd be pissed at me if my dog messed yours up even though my leashed dog was under my control until your dog invaded our personal space.

I personally think its very inconsiderate to other hikers and dog owners who may or may not want your dog approaching. I also don't like breaking the law. My mom will take Pepper to romp around on school grounds if there are no events, usually in the winter. Pepper has great recall with her and there aren't any other people or dogs to bother. I wouldn't do that with my dog(s) simply because I don't trust them.

My biggest pet peeve is off leash dogs who have no business in being off leash. I recently pulled into the parking garage for our local Target and someone had their Maltese wandering around off leash. They were clearly unconcerned but I almost hit their dog because he was so small and the garage is dark and has sharp corners. I also disliked having people come into the pet store with their dogs off leash. WTF? We've clearly posted that dogs _must_ be leashed. We've had dog squabbles crop up with dogs who were off leash and wandered away to greet a grouchy on leash dog. Surprise, dog fight! I have no problem telling people to leash up or go home. We had leashes that people could borrow if they so chose.

If you can properly restrain your dog off leash, meaning 99.99999% recall and will not approach me and my dog if asked, then coolio. Otherwise, leash up. <--- I get the feeling that my requirements will make many, many dog owners have to leash up. Sorry.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

I totally get where you are coming from and appreciate your opinion. We have a couple leash reactive dogs in the neighbourhood, but they avoid the trails because they know they will encounter off leash dogs. I wouldn't allow my dog off leash if we encountered leashed dogs in the area. And I would never allow her off leash anywhere else. However, these trails are barely used and are only accessible from a path off a small side road in our neighbourhood. We see the same 10-15 unleased dogs on a regular basis and have only ever seen one leashed dog. If any leashed dogs used the trails, I would leash up as they are obviously not comfortable with off leash dogs. If we happen to see a leashed dog, I would 100% leash up my dog to avoid any issues.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

So basically the leashed dogs can't use the trail because others aren't following the rules. Not really fair to them, is it? _"We have a couple leash reactive dogs in the neighbourhood, but they avoid the trails because they know they will encounter off leash dogs"_ . I guess I have an issue with people thinking they are exempt from rules.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Unofficial off leash in the more remote areas of Golden Gate park are the rule here, as in the police do not enforce the leash law when they see loose dogs. We are talking areas of the park populated by coyote, owls, redtail hawks.... and homeless people in the bushes, junkies...
I have to be careful with human feces(you can tell by socks, etc being used as toilet paper, etc)...syringes, and piles of rotting garbage in the bushes, as well as the occassional mentally ill person (I often give out food)...
I think the Police are just happy there are people out there who are (otherwise) fairly law abiding and have other things to enforce first...
When I see another off leash dog/walker, I breathe a sigh of relief....its nice to have company.
(well my silly bitch loves the male coyote we encounter, but thats different)...


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Good point. That's why I asked the question. I want to see how others see this. Until now I hadn't put much thought into it. Since it seems like an unofficial off leash trail, I assumed everyone was ok with it. I have spoken to one of the leash reactive dog owners and he said he avoids it more because it's a narrow trail and not because of the off leash dogs. I haven't spoken to the other owner so am not sure if that's what she avoids it. I guess I'm assuming that's why they avoid it since it's known that you will encounter off leash dogs on the trails.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

d_ray said:


> I totally get where you are coming from and appreciate your opinion. We have a couple leash reactive dogs in the neighbourhood, but they avoid the trails because they know they will encounter off leash dogs.


Uh-oh... You are chasing people away who have every right to be able to walk their dogs there if they so chose! By having your dogs off leash, you are preventing other people from enjoying the trails. The law says everyone can walk their dogs on this trail if they are leashed. The way this is heading... I sense dogs potentially being banned from this trail for being (recklessly?) let off leash.

There may be dogless people who want to use the trails but also do not like encountering off leash dogs. They may not be voicing their opinions, they simply do not walk there. Your dog might not be the issue but I'm almost sure that someone's dog there is a nuisance if people with reactive dogs have to stay away. :/


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Sorry, wha I should have said is that the 2 people with reactive dogs haven't told me they reason why they stay away. It was an assumption on my part. I just meant that it's very known to everyone in the neighbourhood that you will encounter at least one off leash dog if you use the trails.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

d_ray said:


> Sorry, wha I should have said is that the 2 people with reactive dogs haven't told me they reason why they stay away. It was an assumption on my part. I just meant that it's very known to everyone in the neighbourhood that you will encounter at least one off leash dog if you use the trails.


But they shouldn't have to encounter off leash dogs, is my point.

The law says no.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I think it really depends on the area. I take my dog down to a park by my parents house occasionally. There's really no walking trail so not many people go there to walk around. It's mainly used for baseball games and there a really tiny playground and tennis court. I'll let my dog off leash when no one is really there and walk along a stream in the woods that goes all the way around to a development down the road. It's pretty much just empty woods, a stream, and swamp land. I've only ever seen one other person back there when I've been there. 

I also take my dog off leash on the trails in the woods behind my parents house. The trails were done by the boy scouts and occasionally they do scavenger hunts and stuff. No one ever really walks on them and they go up behind my parents house and my cousins house one way and then over behind the fields my dad used to own the other way and comes out to this cute little community garden they have now. I've never really seen anyone on the trail and my dog could care less about the people up at the fields.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Our trail sounds like the ones at your parents house. Except for the off leash dog walkers, I rarely see anyone out there.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

We have a park like that near me. Most people tend to stay on-leash until you're down past the main area of the park, and sort of the lower area, that connects to another, non-park trail, is something of an unofficial off-leash area. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a _leashed_ dog there, and have seen exactly 2 people who weren't there with dogs. It's sort of a grey area, because its a connector trail between a county park, a regional park, and a National Park. Not that any of them officially allow off-leash, but I think they all sort of look the other way. We make a lot of use of it--and are headed there this afternoon. The dogs we've encountered have all been pretty friendly, or indifferent to others because they're BUSY FETCHING THINGS IN WATER YAY! I think it really is one of those situations where people go there BECAUSE they know they can go off-leash.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I think it really depends on the area. I take my dog down to a park by my parents house occasionally. There's really no walking trail so not many people go there to walk around. It's mainly used for baseball games and there a really tiny playground and tennis court. I'll let my dog off leash when no one is really there and walk along a stream in the woods that goes all the way around to a development down the road. It's pretty much just empty woods, a stream, and swamp land. I've only ever seen one other person back there when I've been there.
> 
> I also take my dog off leash on the trails in the woods behind my parents house. The trails were done by the boy scouts and occasionally they do scavenger hunts and stuff. No one ever really walks on them and they go up behind my parents house and my cousins house one way and then over behind the fields my dad used to own the other way and comes out to this cute little community garden they have now. I've never really seen anyone on the trail and my dog could care less about the people up at the fields.


x2. It really does depend on the area, as well as your dog being under voice control (we do have voice control areas, but they are farther out- I dont use them for a quick 20 min jaunt or so)...and being aware that you are representing the Dog community to others with your off leash dog....
BTW we had leash- reactive dogs for years and years-- that is how we got to know the remote areas of the park, and off hours walks... (our dogs were not aggressive off leash, this was 15 years ago, they are long dead and cremated at this point)...
Anyone else been skunked on a beach at midnight?....


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

That sounds exactly like ours. In the summer, the dogs are swimming etc. It isn't an official trail and you can't even find it on a map if you look. Yes, we have people who drive from across town to come because they know that no one will enforce the leash law. There are also side trails everywhere.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> Uh-oh... You are chasing people away who have every right to be able to walk their dogs there if they so chose! By having your dogs off leash, you are preventing other people from enjoying the trails. The law says everyone can walk their dogs on this trail if they are leashed. The way this is heading... I sense dogs potentially being banned from this trail for being (recklessly?) let off leash.
> 
> There may be dogless people who want to use the trails but also do not like encountering off leash dogs. They may not be voicing their opinions, they simply do not walk there. Your dog might not be the issue but I'm almost sure that someone's dog there is a nuisance if people with reactive dogs have to stay away. :/


this is it for me. 

There are parks that I have to avoid with my dogs, including my own who is NOT leash reactive but who I don't want to put at risk from an encounter with a loose dog, that are clearly posted as on-leash parks and yet have become de facto off leash parks. People who are a bit scared of dogs or who aren't as physically strong and could be injured by a loose dog also have to avoid those parks. Some people with small kids avoid those parks so their kids aren't knocked over or scared by a dog running "at" them (even if the dog isn't running at them, it can seem like it to a 2 year old)
Which is no fun at all. I pay taxes to the city to support beautiful parks some of which, for all practical purposes, I cannot use because people want to have their dogs off-leash. 

I understand wanting to have your dog be able to run in a large open area and really stretch his legs, but it shouldn't become the burden for the rest of the public to have to walk late at night, seek out empty areas, walk places that aren't even parks (at one point, I was stuck exercising one dog by walking the fairgrounds on pavement because of so many off-leash dog encounters at on-leash parks) etc. 

I support having designated off-leash areas in suitable locations for people that want to use them and make them clearly marked so people know what they are getting into if they venture there. In return, if the place is clearly marked on-leash, it should be on-leash so that people know what they are getting into if they walk there too. It is very stressful going to what I've looked up on the map as an on-leash park and getting halfway through a walk and encountering multiple off-leash dogs.

I honestly don't understand what real benefit you (collective "you") get from having a dog off leash on a trail or path where the dog needs to stay close anyway. If the dog is further out than a longish leash, then they're far enough away they could turn a corner and run into a leashed dog or a person scared of dogs etc. 

A 15 foot leash is a great compromise that gives more control, makes strangers more comfortable seeing your dog (your dog may be perfectly behaved but they don't know that), and still allows your dog sniffing room.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

BernerMax said:


> Anyone else been skunked on a beach at midnight?....


Lol, that's horrible. Thankfully I've never actually seen a skunk in the wild. Usually my biggest concern is foxes, black bear, and coyotes (although I haven't seen any in a while).

I have had some really weird animal experiences though. Has anyone ever been followed by a deer? I'm not sure what was going through this young bucks head but it actually followed me, my SO, and my dog through the woods. Weirdest thing ever. 

Thankfully my dog has good recall because I've had to call him off deer a few times. In not sure why he bothers, they're like 10x his size lol.

Oh, and the wierdest thing I've ever seen, some big black dog like thing with the face of a hyena. Idk what it was but I called my dog and picked him up a quick as possible and then stood behind my SO with a stick. Oh, and I had a raccoon try to follow me, it was during the day and I'm pretty sure it must have had rabies or something... I ran away from it lol.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Shell said:


> I support having designated off-leash areas in suitable locations for people that want to use them and make them clearly marked so people know what they are getting into if they venture there. In return, if the place is clearly marked on-leash, it should be on-leash so that people know what they are getting into if they walk there too. It is very stressful going to what I've looked up on the map as an on-leash park and getting halfway through a walk and encountering multiple off-leash dogs.


This! Let's say I'm new to the area and I want to walk my aggressive-reactive dog on the trails. I think, "It says on-leash. Great! I can safely walk my dog here." And then your (general your) dog rounds the corner and we've got an issue. Or maybe I'm terrified of dogs but I want to take a nature walk. Crap! Your dog bolts around the corner to greet me and I'm dying inside.

It is very stressful to encounter off leash dogs where you do not expect them. Training-wise, its a pain in the arse. For people who are scared of dogs, it can be kind of scarring.

My dog goes out on long line or (heaven help me) a flexi-lead if I want him to get some sniffing room. Another dog approaching? Reel 'em in. The 16ft of line is enough control for me and it doesn't allow my dog to turn corners and unexpectedly greet people/dogs without me.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Shell said:


> this is it for me.
> 
> There are parks that I have to avoid with my dogs, including my own who is NOT leash reactive but who I don't want to put at risk from an encounter with a loose dog, that are clearly posted as on-leash parks and yet have become de facto off leash parks. People who are a bit scared of dogs or who aren't as physically strong and could be injured by a loose dog also have to avoid those parks. Some people with small kids avoid those parks so their kids aren't knocked over or scared by a dog running "at" them (even if the dog isn't running at them, it can seem like it to a 2 year old)
> Which is no fun at all. I pay taxes to the city to support beautiful parks some of which, for all practical purposes, I cannot use because people want to have their dogs off-leash.
> ...


This! We have a gorgeous urban forest that is full of lovely trails near my house. It is designated as an on-leash park, but I can't use it to walk Kuma, because it is full of dog owners who refuse to follow the law. I tried walking Kuma there ONCE, and it was a nightmare! Kuma was charged and pounced on by numerous unruly large dogs within the first 10 minutes, and nearly attacked by one dog!

It's completely unfair to prevent law-abiding citizens from using a public park, simply because you don't want to follow the rules.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Oh, and the wierdest thing I've ever seen, some big black dog like thing with the face of a hyena. Idk what it was but I called my dog and picked him up a quick as possible and then stood behind my SO with a stick. Oh, and I had a raccoon try to follow me, it was during the day and I'm pretty sure it must have had rabies or something... I ran away from it lol.


That would really freak me out. The only think we have to watch for is coyotes and wasp nests.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I will admit that I have been bad about this. There are no specific signs stating on or off leash (but I think there is a county leash law) and it is rare to encounter another dog or person on the trail. Bubba and Nugget both have (had? Nug isnt with me anymore) a good recall but there have been a few times when they haven't listened and I have done a big "Wow, Rescued, you suck. Way to go."

Ironically, the recall fail has never happened with another dog, but with people that have pointed, gestured wildly, and screamed- and I have labs, and they love all people so they think it is playtime. We are working on proofing this. This has only ever happened with foreign exchange students who I am assuming have never really seen a pet dog.

If it is an area where dogs are known to frequent, I usually just don't go there. The walk I refer to above is a path that winds through an ultimate frisbee course on campus, so there are very few dogs and also very few walkers, as most people are off the sides of the path playing frisbee.

TL; DR- I am a bad person, but nothing (permanently) bad has ever come of my offleashness.


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## London's owner (Sep 7, 2013)

Once off my property, my dogs are NEVER off-leash, for many of the reasons stated above. First of all, their recall isn't perfect (not even close, although that is a work in progress!). Secondly, it is too easy for them to tangle with something that they shouldn't before I can intervene, whether it's another dog, wildlife, etc. Third, I realize that not everybody likes dogs. Even seeing a dog off-leash may be incredibly frightening to somebody, even if the dog is well-behaved. I respect other people's right to be walking around, with or without a dog, without having to wonder if my dogs pose a threat to them.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

For me it depends on the area. If I know there will be other people/dogs there, Pepper is definitely leashed. But we often go to places where nobody else is and so I let Pepper off leash. If I see or hear anyone else in the area, she goes back on the leash until we're well past them.

It does bother me though when Pepper is on leash and other people walk by with their unleashed dog (in an on-leash area). I think that's just rude. It's an on-leash area and we are obeying by being on leash, they could do the same (at least to walk by us). Pepper gets so excited to see other dogs she pulls on the leash. It makes it very hard to control her when the other dog comes running up to say hi.


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

I have some issues with people breaking leash laws. Buffy can never be off leash because she will bolt after any deer, squirrel, random leaf, etc. She's not leash reactive but does get very excited when other dogs are playing off leash near her, as in will start jumping and running as much as she can because she wants to join in. She's developing better recall as she matures, and seems to stick closer to me in closed, designated off-leash areas, but I still don't think I could trust her in the open.

I have some acquaintances who don't always follow leash laws. Some of their dogs are under excellent voice control, so I can't complain too much about them. Their dogs may run off into the trees or take a dip in the stream, but the owners keep them within sight and call them back to their sides at any sign of another person or dog approaching. I know other people whose dogs also obey them, but they're not as proactive about avoiding contact with other people/dogs, or stopping play if it's agitating leashed dogs, and I get pretty annoyed by it.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

d_ray said:


> I totally get where you are coming from and appreciate your opinion. We have a couple leash reactive dogs in the neighbourhood, but they avoid the trails because they know they will encounter off leash dogs. I wouldn't allow my dog off leash if we encountered leashed dogs in the area. And I would never allow her off leash anywhere else. However, these trails are barely used and are only accessible from a path off a small side road in our neighbourhood. We see the same 10-15 unleased dogs on a regular basis and have only ever seen one leashed dog. If any leashed dogs used the trails, I would leash up as they are obviously not comfortable with off leash dogs. If we happen to see a leashed dog, I would 100% leash up my dog to avoid any issues.


I think its okay for a community to decide how to use a space, even if its not in accordance with the official rules. Our local dog park is not officially offleash sanctioned but has functioned that way since I was a little girl with no problems I have knowledge of. So if it really is the case that everyone uses it offleash I think its okay to do it as well (assuming you have rock solid recall). If, however the culture is more that many of the people obey leash laws and some don't and there are occasional squabbles between the two... well in that case you need to respect the communal decision as well.

EDIT: To give you a sense of the distinction I'll use two examples from our own are. First the park, at any given moment there are at least 3 or 4 offleash dogs and when the weather is nice its common for groups up to 15 to congregate. The dogs stay on the field and don't enter either the childrens playground or harass people using the walk-through path. On the other hand there are trails near my house where leashing looks more like 60/40 (leashed/unleashed). It is decidedly a walking trail in the city not a place to congregate or with much wilderness and tends to be very busy with joggers, bikers, children and people with other dogs. I do not walk Pete there unleashed and get a little annoyed when others do. Many dogs don't want to encounter other dogs and I feel it disrupts the flow of an area otherwise intentioned for travel, not doggy play.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aiw said:


> I think its okay for a community to decide how to use a space, even if its not in accordance with the official rules. Our local dog park is not officially offleash sanctioned but has functioned that way since I was a little girl with no problems I have knowledge of. So if it really is the case that everyone uses it offleash I think its okay to do it as well (assuming you have rock solid recall). If, however the culture is more that many of the people obey leash laws and some don't and there are occasional squabbles between the two... well in that case you need to respect the communal decision as well.


The problem with informal "communal decisions" is that they aren't really truly communal decisions. People who aren't comfortable with or cannot handle off-leash dogs simply stop using those areas but are never really given a voice in the creation of the de facto dog parks. The more people that use a place off-leash, the less people use it on-leash and so it may seem at a glance that everyone is quite happy with it being an off-leash place, the reality can be more that the loose dogs have taken over the park and displaced the on-leash dogs and the non-dog people to other locations.

If a community as a whole wants an off-leash area, then they should go through the planning and zoning process and allow for public comments. Get a legal variance from the leash laws and provide liability coverage or proper signage to release liability for a given area. There are neighborhood associations and dog park associations that do this. It allows everyone to have their voice heard and for a suitable location to be designated clearly for off-leash play which really helps the out of town visitor or the new to the area dog owner from running into a dangerous situation. 

By creating a legal off-leash zone, it also helps those who have their dogs off-leash. It will (generally) limit or reduce their liability should an injury or bite occur. Whereas in a legally on-leash area, the off-leash dog is generally guilty unless proven otherwise (and even then might share some of the "guilt" burden)


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Sorry I didn't read all two pages, but I'm all for leashing up your dog especially since it's a rule. I used to think if your dog was super obedient, than it's okay now I don't think that any more. I have seen so many obedient dogs that defy their masters "come", "stay" commands to run after another dog, a squirrel, etc. I also think it's nice of the owner to follow those rules and not create (or about to create) a situation. I appreciate it when owners follow the rules, it means half the time nothing will occur. 

I'm frustrated with owners who don't follow the rules or who think the rules don't apply to them. The rules are there for a reason, they're there for safely reasons. They should be followed. And, I'm sorry but this is my opinion, if it happens more often where the person is uncomfortable, then that said owner should be reported.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

My opinion is that if something bad happens to your dog (while off leash when there is a leash law), it's too bad, so sad. If something happens and your dog does something to another pet or human, you'll both be paying the price.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

The reason Sydney hasn't gotten as many walks as she used to, is because of inconsiderate people not following leash laws. Syd's reactive, I've had loose dogs run up to us and have had a huge problem. It's not fair to me, or my dog when people don't want to follow the law and have no regard for other people. I don't care how well trained you think your dog is... if there's a law that says you are required to have your dog on a leash, then you better follow it. I haaaate people who don't. I've lived in our new house for a week now, and we've seen several loose dogs so far... one of which even went into our garage... our neighbors let their two dogs out into their unfenced yard without a tie out, or anything. So I get really nervous when I put Syd outside... it sucks.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

IMO people will do what they are going to do and so if you decide to break the leash law, just be sure you take responsibility when you get a ticket or the dog takes off and there is a fight.

I have a DA dog, I HATE off leash dogs! Where they aren't allowed, of course. I try to take Eko to on leash places only so I have some assurances that we won't have any accidents, then someone is there off leash and I hate it.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Sarah~ said:


> IMO people will do what they are going to do and so if you decide to break the leash law, just be sure you take responsibility when you get a ticket or the dog takes off and there is a fight.
> 
> I have a DA dog, I HATE off leash dogs! Where they aren't allowed, of course. I try to take Eko to on leash places only so I have some assurances that we won't have any accidents, then someone is there off leash and I hate it.


I don't know if it's just our side of the city, or what... but it seems like there are SO MANY people who let their dogs run around without any sort of confinement or leash... I live in Maize now, but still on the same west side, and it's still pretty bad!


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I don't know if it's just our side of the city, or what... but it seems like there are SO MANY people who let their dogs run around without any sort of confinement or leash... I live in Maize now, but still on the same west side, and it's still pretty bad!


Must be, it really is bad here. I have neighbors who just let their dogs wander up and down the streets, a long time ago when I first moved here there was a pack of dogs, literally a pack, like 5 or 6 dogs that people OWNED, in my neighborhood. They scared the crap out of me, I used to have to walk to work and they chased me more than once!


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

We walk Loki off leash in leashed areas.. but the minute we see/hear other people, he's leashed up. Loki also has a solid recall is very clingy to us. I don't think there is any harm or foul by doing this.. and it's a risk, but a calculated one.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Loki Love said:


> We walk Loki off leash in leashed areas.. but the minute we see/hear other people, he's leashed up. Loki also has a solid recall is very clingy to us. I don't think there is any harm or foul by doing this.. and it's a risk, but a calculated one.


It's a calculated risk that you are taking for the rest of us on leashers. That's not super.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Shell said:


> The problem with informal "communal decisions" is that they aren't really truly communal decisions. People who aren't comfortable with or cannot handle off-leash dogs simply stop using those areas but are never really given a voice in the creation of the de facto dog parks. The more people that use a place off-leash, the less people use it on-leash and so it may seem at a glance that everyone is quite happy with it being an off-leash place, the reality can be more that the loose dogs have taken over the park and displaced the on-leash dogs and the non-dog people to other locations.
> 
> If a community as a whole wants an off-leash area, then they should go through the planning and zoning process and allow for public comments. Get a legal variance from the leash laws and provide liability coverage or proper signage to release liability for a given area. There are neighborhood associations and dog park associations that do this. It allows everyone to have their voice heard and for a suitable location to be designated clearly for off-leash play which really helps the out of town visitor or the new to the area dog owner from running into a dangerous situation.
> 
> By creating a legal off-leash zone, it also helps those who have their dogs off-leash. It will (generally) limit or reduce their liability should an injury or bite occur. Whereas in a legally on-leash area, the off-leash dog is generally guilty unless proven otherwise (and even then might share some of the "guilt" burden)


I suppose, but its been operating this way for well over 20 years so I imagine if there were serious problems they would have been voiced or noticed by now. For the most part I quite like informal use of public spaces, especially where it has no tangible or obvious negative effects. Most of the city has leash laws (understandably, its a busy place) so its not like there is a shortage of places to walk where encountering offleash dogs is unlikely. 

Eh, its just the way the place has been used for years and a part of the dog culture here. No one is visibly inconvenienced and to my knowledge there have never been any reports. Just a part of the neighbourhood.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> My opinion is that if something bad happens to your dog (while off leash when there is a leash law), it's too bad, so sad. If something happens and your dog does something to another pet or human, you'll both be paying the price.


Except it doesn't always work that way. While it was overturned by the state supreme court, the owner of the leash dog in this case had to deal with a lot of hassle (and probably expense) in the meantime
(Yes, I know that one of the dogs in that case broke a tether, the point is that the leashed dog who was attacked was still blamed based solely on his breed)

Being willing to take responsibility doesn't prevent possible harm to another dog or person nor the legal or financial problems that person might incur before your insurance kicks in. Which also presumes that one has sufficient personal liability insurance to cover a serious accident. 

I used to think "no harm, no foul" and as long as you could call your dog back then it was fine. Then 2 things happened. One is that I got into pit bull rescue and started fostering leash reactive or fearful dogs (or even just dealing with a dog that had eye surgery and needed to be kept safe in the cone for example) and the other is seeing how the legal system works where even the law abiding dog can be punished.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

RabbleFox said:


> It's a calculated risk that you are taking for the rest of us on leashers. That's not super.


Nope, because if I see you coming along with your dog, on leash - then I'm going to leash up my dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it depends on the area.

My dogs are off leash a lot but we trek through areas where you rarely ever see other dogs. The park I go to has lots of open space. I let my dogs off in the fields to run. Other people do too all the time. I have been using this place for years and have absolutely never seen an off leash unruly dog in the field areas. People are super considerate of others overall and I've seen people often use the area to work their dogs. I've seen people practicing schutzhund style obedience, I've used it to practice agility, I see bird dogs training there a lot.... It's set up so you can see other dogs/people coming WAY before they actually get near you. People stick to their own thing. 

Yesterday we hiked for 1.5 hours and saw one other dog from a distance and only a handful of people. The park is 400 acres. If I were told to leash my dogs up, I would and would take responsibility for it. On main trails they drag lines but typically we don't see anyone. And like I said, it's oklahoma so you see a long ways away and I can grab the lines way before we reach another dog. On really nice weather days though the park is substantially more crowded so obviously the dogs are leashed up. I love to go when it's freezing or raining because we have 400 acres to ourselves.

If you have your dogs off leash though they need to be under control. My dogs spin around in an instant if I call them in. If I ask them to leash up, they hold still and do it. Mia absolutely needs to run off leash a few times a week to keep my sanity. We do have trails at the dog training facility and also my dad has acreage so we use those two, but the fields by my house are a favorite. 

That said, once there was a lady with a cockapoo type thing that was running wild around the parking lot and main trail while it was busy. My dogs were leashed up and drinking from the fountain when their dog came up to harass mine (mine aren't friendly). I also saw one large dog running amok with no owners ever in sight that came up to my dogs. That thoroughly pisses me off. Your dogs should NEVER be running up to people and other dogs when off leash.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

eh, I let my dogs off leash all the time, technically they are only allowed off leash on private property or the dog park..I let my dogs off leash in random fields and parks all the time, and I don't care if other people do it either. I DO care if people do it and do not have control of their dogs. I would never EVER allow my dogs to run up to a strange person or dog, I don't allow my dogs out of my sight and the second I see a person or dog, I call my dogs to me and keep them in a sit/down stay right beside me. nothing pisses me off more then going for a walk and having someone's off leash dog charge my pack, on Sat. someone let their GSD run ACROSS THE STREET to "say hi" to my dogs..TWICE. if someone's dog is off leash and under control? no complaints from me.

edit- I also walk Happy off leash pretty regularly, I don't worry about her, she doesn't give 2 hoots about anybody or their dog, she does chase anything, she doesn't even walk ahead, she wont set foot off the sidewalk, and always stays to the right of the traffic line on paths. you would never know she wasn't on a leash, I often take her leash off though because she struggles to keep up with the rest of my pack, and I don't want to drag the poor thing.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I have a 3 acre field providing a 'barrier' between the residential section and the wooded wetlands. I walk Shep in that field offleash a few times a day, and we've only run into 2 -3 people in 6 mos. However, a flock of turkey vultures does watch us in the morning.

The streets are kid-friendly, 20 MPH enforced. A number of folks walk their dogs off leash, including me. The leashed dogs are usually some form of dog aggressive, so I put Shep on leash as we pass. Shep would normally not be an issue, but he might stop to say "Are you sure you don't want to play?" 

If people wave when we walk, things are fine, but if they say Hello, then Shep will run to go greet them. People around here are VERY friendly to a happy dog, and some people 'sabotage' our walk to greet Shep. After 6 mos of off-leash walking in this neighborhood, I did run into one neighbor that did not want to interact with Shep. He seemed to be OK when I apologized ....


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Shell, I understand what you're saying. I think it's foolish to chance it. Put it this way, if one of my grand kids or dogs get hurt because of an unleashed dog in a leash law area, I'm going to make someone's life miserable, court ruling or not.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

aiw said:


> I suppose, but its been operating this way for well over 20 years so I imagine if there were serious problems they would have been voiced or noticed by now. For the most part I quite like informal use of public spaces, especially where it has no tangible or obvious negative effects. Most of the city has leash laws (understandably, its a busy place) so its not like there is a shortage of places to walk where encountering offleash dogs is unlikely.
> 
> Eh, its just the way the place has been used for years and a part of the dog culture here. No one is visibly inconvenienced and to my knowledge there have never been any reports. Just a part of the neighbourhood.


That's exactly how I feel. Ours has been operating for 20 years and I think if people complained then the area would be enforced. I've never heard of anyone ever getting ticketed or reported. I know a lot of people in the neighbourhood and I've never heard a complaint. If people were complaining or if anyone even commented to me, I would respect their wishes. The 2 times I've seen people without dogs I've asked them if they mind and they were like thanks for asking but we love dogs.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Let me preface this with: if my dog had any interest in running up to other dogs and/or if my dog didn't have excellent recall and/or if my dog wasn't bulletproof with people of all ages and/or if I wasn't able to micromanage the situation, I personally would NOT allow her off leash.

I allow Gypsy off leash in on-leash places a few times a week. Usually soccer fields or parks with big green space but sometimes hiking trails at off hours. To say I'm diligent about managing her in the situation is a huge understatement. She has literally NEVER, in my memory, run up to a person or dog in an on-leash place without my explicit permission. Twice, she's gotten closeish to walkers, and they were both errors on my part. In neither case did she interact with the walkers, and I regained control of the situation shortly thereafter. 

I have never been asked to leash my dog, though I absolutely would. If anything, I've gotten very positive feedback about my dog's obedience in such places. I also realize I'm in the wrong and any accident that occurs is my fault. Having said that, it's a risk v. benefit thing for us. There is huuuuge benefit in allowing Gypsy off leash and limited risk. We do obedience work, fetching, and hiking all in one. There is no better way to meet her physical and mental needs. I'm honestly not sure how I'd live with this dog if not for our local parks. As far as I know, and I've looked, there are no dog designated parks in the area, except thunderdome style, which wouldn't be to her liking or mine. And our yard is a small, unfenced corner lot. I work her in the yard, but it's not enough. Gypsydog is high drive and high energy.

So yeah, Gyp and I break leash laws. We break 'em baaad. But I try not to be one of "those people" whose dog causes you and yours stress. "Those people" drive me nuts too (whether or not that makes me a hypocrite, I dunno.)

Edit: Just realized that every single naturesque picture I've taken of Gypsy off-leash has been taken somewhere she's supposed to be on-leash. Aheh. That includes picture one, four, and five in my signature...


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

kirsten&gypsy said:


> i have never been asked to leash my dog, though i absolutely would. If anything, i've gotten very positive feedback about my dog's obedience i also realize i'm in the wrong and any accident that occurs is my fault. Having said that, it's a risk v. Benefit thing for us. There is huuuuge benefit in allowing gypsy off leash and limited risk. We do obedience work, fetching, and hiking all in one. There is no better way to meet her physical and mental needs. I'm honestly not sure how i'd live with this dog if not for our local parks. As far as i know, and i've looked, there are no dog designated parks in the area, except thunderdome style, which wouldn't be to her liking or mine. And our yard is a small, unfenced corner lot. I work her in the yard, but it's not enough. Gypsydog is high drive and high energy.
> 
> So yeah, gyp and i break leash laws. We break 'em baaad. But i try not to be one of "those people" whose dog causes you and yours stress. "those people" drive me nuts too (whether or not that makes me a hypocrite, i dunno.)


this this this


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Let me preface this with: if my dog had any interest in running up to other dogs and/or if my dog didn't have excellent recall and/or if my dog wasn't bulletproof with people of all ages and/or if I wasn't able to micromanage the situation, I personally would NOT allow her off leash.
> 
> I allow Gypsy off leash in on-leash places a few times a week. Usually soccer fields or parks with big green space but sometimes hiking trails at off hours. To say I'm diligent about managing her in the situation is a huge understatement. She has literally NEVER, in my memory, run up to a person or dog in an on-leash place without my explicit permission. Twice, she's gotten closeish to walkers, and they were both errors on my part. In neither case did she interact with the walkers, and I regained control of the situation shortly thereafter.
> 
> ...


Yes pretty much that, especially the bolded. I can't imagine living with Mia without our 3-4 off leash treks a week. Not to mention setting up camp at places to work their nosework or agility. My yard is TINY and Mia believes it's the potty place only and won't play out there. Hiking off leash is how she gets a load of her mental stimulation every week and we'd be lost without it. She gets.... really really antsy without off leash running and exploring time. Even going to the training facility a couple times a week and doing work at home and leashed walks aren't going to replace what she gets from her off leash time.

I honestly think it's kind of sad that there really aren't that many options out there to let dogs off leash to be dogs except for fenced in type dog parks. I really wish there were parks that allowed dogs under voice control more. In Texas there were several but here there's not. We make do as much as we can and use common sense. Lots of cars in the parking lot = on leash. We try to go during off hours and bad weather as often as possible. We have firm rules and stick to areas you can see 180 degrees around you or that are way out of the way. My dogs are very handler oriented and are also very used to working off leash with distractions. 

The only off leash areas here are fenced in dog parks, which neither dog is suited for. And even if they were the small sides of the dog park are the same size as my tiny yard pretty much. The agility field is great but you need to be there when the trainers are there and often people are running their big dogs off leash there... also not a good situation for the little dogs. There are trails back behind the house we can use but... again you have to go while the field is being used and also the neighbor to the north hates dogs and will shoot if you get on his property. So I avoid there because I don't know the boundary. My dad's acreage is great in the winter but in summer is snake haven... rattlers and copperheads. We don't go except during the winter.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Where I live there is not place to go to take your dog off leash. My city has no dog park, but we live very remote. We have a leash law, and technically you can't even take your dog off leash on your OWN property if its not fully fenced in.

I have learned to go around the rules. The dogs would live a very sad life if they had to be leashed all their life. 

We are so remote and the area I am visiting is completely deserted because once it gets cold, NO ONE walks their dogs. 

My dogs are well trained. If I should encounter another dog, they are recalled and put on the leash. They don't even get a chance to run up to a dog and they never have.

I learned to pick times where no one else is out.
Rainy days are perfect to go on a hike along the Beach. 
People are lazy and don't go out of their comfort zone and that's when I take my dogs off leash - Leash Law or not!



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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah dog owners get the really short end of the stick in the city I live in part time-- they would live miserable lives if they had stay in the miserable little fenced in areas they call off leash dog areas in the Park...
And, really what young dog really gets good tiring excercise stuck on the end of a 6 ft leash.... and not allowed to meet other dogs? My young dog and I were hit by a bike rider -- he almost strangled when his leash got tangled-- and that was not a bike path....
Its such an artificial existence...
(My friend works with rescued pit bulls as well...)....
I feel lucky to have the option of the wild places in the Park that we can unofficially walk off leash (consider this, the coyote pack, that has been denning in the area we have walked in for almost 20 years, is most certainly Unleashed)....
I feel like if they want to police the leash laws they can start by enforcing the public drinking laws and getting the dealers out of the bushes first.... 
I hear the argument that Shell made about going the rules and regs route and getting liscenscure and zoning and all that -- but the naysayers seem to outrule the dog walkers, who honestly when its cold and wet and dark out, who else is out and about walking?
(My friend wants to leave the city after trying all year to get a couple of hens in the local community garden where she has had a plot for 8 years, you should hear all the doubt and worry....I have a flock of 14 and we garden just fine, but there is no convincing the naysayers, I think even Avaian flu was brought up)...

I like the NYC solution where they allow off leash during off hours, at least thats a meeting-you-partway solution....
It feels like they are making an accommodation for a significant part of the taxpaying public that is out there making use of the parks...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm glad there are no leash laws outside town limits around here. I just pick a nice-looking minimum maintenance road and no problems. Worse thing to look out for is teenagers shooting up the road signs. But they mostly clear out if they see anyone else in the area. Even if there were leash laws, I figure that if the sheriff's department can't keep kids from shooting up street signs they probably aren't going to have the manpower/money to enforce leash laws .

ETA: there is NO possible way my dogs could ever get enough exercise on leash. LOL.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I honestly think it's kind of sad that there really aren't that many options out there to let dogs off leash to be dogs except for fenced in type dog parks. I really wish there were parks that allowed dogs under voice control more.


This, in spades. The park where we go illicitly off-leash is (for this area) quite off the beaten path--I've never seen more than half a dozen cars in the parking area, it's not a park with a bunch of sports/picnic facilities, we're well away from any roads, even residential ones, and when I've got her out, due to my wonky work schedule, we're out hiking off leash at 3PM on a Monday, or whatever. She gets recalled and put back on leash when I see people approaching. An off leash run or two a few times a week makes a big difference for her.

I accept that what we're doing is against the rules, but if someone were to stop and warn/fine us, I'm fine with that risk. Given that I've NEVER seen any kind of parks department employee there its a low risk. Not like the SO who walked the dog, on leash, into a National Park via a non-park trail while the shutdown was going on--he got stopped and warned! Had a good laugh over that one.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Well at least you all know the risks involved. I still think it's extremely wrong to disobey any law as it's there for your and your dog's protection. Also I'm sorry but the most well obedient dog will one day disobey you; I've seen it happen first hand. There's a GSD that lives near us, very obedient, would never disobey it's owner. Well one day it did, ran right up to us disregarding what the owner was calling out. Thankfully the dog was friendly. My grandmother's dog, again very obedient, got out the door and didn't listen as he ran into the street. Thankfully it wasn't a busy road. 
Another Chow disobeyed its owner to run after a deer. I really hope the dog was found. Things happen and I hope you understand that's one of the risks you're taking. Sorry I'm not putting my dog's life in danger.

I'm going to get strong opinions on my strong opinion above, but that's my two cents. I hope I didn't come off as harsh or blaming you for anything because that wasn't my intent.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

One thing of clarification. I would never take them off as long as we are in the neighborhood. My neighbors all know our dogs. They are supervised at all times and are not allowed to bark outside. If they do, they come inside.

My neighbors dog is constantly in the road harrassing people. He goes pretty far from his property. Comes onto ours and I have to make sure he is not out when I open the door. Because of that, I make sure no one has a complaint about ours.

Anyhow, 10 minutes from our house is a small meadow and also the place where we do a lot of search training. 
No one is ever there. In all the time we have been working out there, I crossed paths with maybe three people taking their dogs for a walk and that in three years. 

So yeah; while there is a leash law, I don't hesistate to take them off leash out there. I take them one by one, since four dogs off leash within the City Limits would be a bit too much and just asking for trouble. 

They need to be able to stretch out and while we have a rather large yard, its not the same as stretching out the way they can in the Meadows. Once we are done, they go back on the leash and we walk home.

There has been a fight going on within the City to get a Dog Park for the past 9 years. They even had a 200 000 dollar donation to build one.
They banned dogs from public events and places. Even I who was assured to be able to train my dogs at the Market got kicked off and asked to leave.

I waited over a year to go out within the limits to train but since we don't have a car right now, and I can't go anywhere and wouldn't use the Meadow, I could pack up and tank everything we do...
I am not hiding it either. I just learned my lesson not to trust politicians and their promises and not to take them to Events in this forsaken place.
I wait until I get officially invited to an event and for off leash time I go to the most remote place that no one ever uses....  
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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm super on the fence about this. I don't think it's a mortal sin to go off leash in areas that do not allow it, and I also think you can only consider other dogs SO MUCH. I have two leash reactives (I want to say FORMER but every odd while Smalls will get set off by something like dogs off lead playing) and two that do not really love strange dogs, but I don't feel like owners with dogs that are under vocal command easily should have to constantly worry about whether or not they'll run into someone with dogs like mine. If I see an off lead dog in an advanced, I actually put distance between us or turn around. I rarely have to do this because most people I come across with off lead dogs leash them pretty quickly upon seeing another person. 

So I suppose I tentatively think.. if your dog is reliable off lead, dog friendly, and you're not going to be in an area where it will cause an issue no matter how good YOUR dog is, then go nuts. Like the hiking preserve we go to is 1,000 some acres and there is a leash rule. It's really not going to burn my butt if some one does not follow the leash rule there because the odds of seeing someone is pretty small.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> I honestly think it's kind of sad that there really aren't that many options out there to let dogs off leash to be dogs except for fenced in type dog parks. I really wish there were parks that allowed dogs under voice control more.


Yes, this. I hate making waves and am probably, like, the most law abiding citizen otherwise, but...


> ETA: there is NO possible way my dogs could ever get enough exercise on leash. LOL.


This! I mean, we do 5-mile runs, leashed walks, even biking together occasionally, but she doesn't tire. If we go to the park, I'm throwing the ball, practicing obedience commands, and she covers infinitely more ground than I do in a period of time. I don't have all day to walk her on leash. I need to meet her exercise/stimulation needs in a shorter time period, and off leash work is the best way for me to do that. It does so much more for her! I would love to do it legally, ha.

I would also love a dog that would be content with an hour leashed walk daily, but alas, I have the dog I have! I train her and manage her to reduce risk, but that risk is one that, for my sanity and hers, we take. To the absolute best of my ability, I prevent her from being a nuisance to other dogs and people. I feel I've done a good job overall, so far. Obviously I'd take responsibility if something did happen.



> I'm going to get strong opinions on my strong opinion above, but that's my two cents. I hope I didn't come off as harsh or blaming you for anything because that wasn't my intent.


Meh. If you don't want to take the risk, don't let him your dog off leash. Nothing wrong with that. I'm of the mind that most people, even those with obedient dogs, shouldn't let their dogs off leash. I'm sure there are forum members similar to Gyp and I, but I've never met someone IRL with our level of off leash control outdoors. Our off leash shenanigans work only because of my dog, the extent of her training (and genetics, probably), as well as how cautious and micromanaging I am. Not to say that an accident couldn't happen, but, like, worth the risk.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Like TWAB, I'm of two minds. In the city/ neighborhood/ residential areas, no. Absolutely no. Including public community parks with leash laws. Just because people quietly change their habits without complaining, it doesn't mean they're not unhappy about it. And it's not like the police don't have anything better to do than respond to a bunch of complaints of dogs off leash in the park. 

Having said that, if I am hiking in a remote/low density area I will go off leash. Primarily with Pip, who has an excellent recall and doesn't like to stray far anyway. A few times I have been hiking waaaay up north and let Squash or Maisy off leash but these are areas bordering the BWCA so they are pretty out there, I don't see people for days sometimes up there.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yep. I'm with Sass, here.

Residential areas, neighborhoods, near major highways, or with reactive or aggressive dogs - where the dog deciding to blow me off (never happened but could) is a danger to *someone else or their pet or property*? Heck no, not ever.

Hiking areas, low density areas, public property that is a 'park' of the nature preserve sort? The risk I am taking is with my own dogs, and I'm not foisting that decision onto someone else. No one is going to have to deal with the consequences to that blow off but me and my dog. Something could happen and I recognize that, but I'm willing to take the (minimal at this point) risk to get the benefit. And, frankly, my dogs are '6 feet away on leash or off, will return off prey, have no interest in other dogs or people' dogs, because I've worked my butt off at them. I minimize that further with remote locations, and honestly if they do blow me off they're more likely to get into trouble with a bear than someone else's dog. So, you know, my dogs are paying for my decisions, not someone else's dog paying for my decisions. I'm okay with that.

(That said, we don't really... have leash laws outside town limits here, so.)


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Pretty much what Sass and Cpt Jack said. Although I will say, in general, know your area. If you know where the off-leash dogs are likely to be (legal or not) then at least you're prepared.



d_ray said:


> That's exactly how I feel. Ours has been operating for 20 years and I think if people complained then the area would be enforced. I've never heard of anyone ever getting ticketed or reported. I know a lot of people in the neighbourhood and I've never heard a complaint. If people were complaining or if anyone even commented to me, I would respect their wishes. The 2 times I've seen people without dogs I've asked them if they mind and they were like thanks for asking but we love dogs.


There is a similar area where I live... a (very small) off-leash area bordered by a lot of really nice not-technically on-leash paths and stuff down through a ravine, plus the green space along the residential streets that run along said ravine. Well, technically only the small grassy area at the top of the ravine is off-leash (about 2 football fields in size), plus some off-leash along the utility line across the street. The whole thing forms an "L" shape, with a road cutting off the field from the utility line and no fences (or even a cross walk!) to join the two bits. So most people that use the field area just walk their dogs through the ravine and the connecting green space. I always keep Snowball leashed in the connecting spaces because if he sees a dog across the street he WILL run across the road to it, especially near the start of a walk before we've come across any other dogs. But I don't have a problem with dogs being off-leash there because... well, if you're walking along there you're either heading to/from the off-leash part or are just looking to make trouble since it only connects to the designated off-leash area from the ravine.

That said, I sometimes think city planners don't have a basic grasp of off-leash dog parks. I live in a city with lots of them, but any of the ones not in the river valley are pretty poorly planned... like the one by my house, and another that runs under high-capacity power lines and across a handful of major roads so that you walk 200 yards, have to leash up, cross the road, rinse, repeat... or part of the park by my house abuts to some residential without any fencing requirements, so a bunch of the back yards are open to the off-leash park...(and one of the homes have highly barrier-aggressive dogs with only a chain link fence and not even any privacy slats). I find it really weird that the nice ravine is not off-leash, and yet the utility corridor that has homes running down either side only about 50 yards apart without any fence requirements is.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Oh why is this thread so provocative to me....
I guess cause.... where else are you going to, but by necessity break a leash law?
But the city or residential areas? Not everyone has the luxury of wilderness to retreat to...!... And living in a metro area you are going to run into other people and animals...
When we are in the country, we are out on 2 acres fully fenced on our own property, no reason to rule break!
I am just thinking back to the time we spent as city dwellers with two turbo Boxers that needed outlets...
I guess I understand the risk and the penalties imposed by Law if dog loose becomes and issue and am willing to risk that. 
I was stalked and attacked, and I think if my dog had been OFF LEASH that man would have never been able to get as close as he did (he tracked us with binocoulers from a womens bathroom at 10am in a busy spot in the park)....
It was only cause I dropped the leash-- dog attacked man (all 38lbs of pitty mix of her) and I ran like Hell....that we survived (man didnt have any interest in the dog, it wasnt her he was after)...
There are a whole lot worse things than dogs off leash to worry about, really.
I prefer to walk in the dark in remote areas in the Park. Predators go where the people are, silly. 
and my dogs are off leash, doing what they do best, and they get excercise as well...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Oh why is this thread so provocative to me....
> I guess cause.... where else are you going to, but by necessity break a leash law?
> But the city or residential areas? Not everyone has the luxury of wilderness to retreat to...!... And living in a metro area you are going to run into other people and animals...
> When we are in the country, we are out on 2 acres fully fenced on our own property, no reason to rule break!
> ...



The problem is in cities you are risking *other people* - not just your dogs. Your dog rushes an aggressive dog and starts a fight, it's your dog's fault but their dog is the one who pays - or pays along with yours. Your dog dashes into traffic and causes an accident? Your dog might get hit, but the person or people in the car or cars also pay.

THIS is the difference to me. I make the choice to put my dogs at risk to give them off leash time and exercise, but I think endangering other people and animals in your decision (or at least not working danged hard to minimize the HECK out of the risk they pose to others) is flat out wrong.

What do you do in metro and urban areas? You pay for daycare, you drive out of the metro area, you find a dog park, you teach them to run with a bike, or you have dogs whose energy requirements you can meet without turning them loose in residential areas where you endanger other people's pets, lives, and property. I mean that's just... the end of it for me. 

My dogs need for exercise (or my desire to let them off leash) does not trump someone else's RIGHT to be safe.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

CptJack said:


> The problem is in cities you are risking *other people* - not just your dogs. Your dog rushes an aggressive dog and starts a fight, it's your dog's fault but their dog is the one who pays - or pays along with yours. Your dog dashes into traffic and causes an accident? Your dog might get hit, but the person or people in the car or cars also pay.


I am not advocating sheer stupidity. Just common sense.
There is exactly, two dogs in our neighborhood that get to walk leash free the 2 blocks to Golden Gate park-- a perfectly (and I mean I have known this dog for 7 years) behaved Husky-collie mix... and an elderly Irish terrier.... 
Everyone else, its on leash til you can hit the back trails (not the busy touristy ones) around the dump sites and encampments...


I am not talking letting my dog off leash on the sidewalk! In the metro areas what people are talking about is using the city parks, the green wild ones, for their dogs off leash usu in the out of the way places! 
here is one of our most Famous Parks:

www.google.com/search?q=Dolores+Par...3wigLQlIHABg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=608

Its an ON LEASH park and and amazing intersection of our wonderful (if at times maddening, and risky) City...
And my child spent 4 years in a school next to that park and the school would walk the kids to play at the playground a couple times a week -- kids dogs people all having fun....
It can happen , if every one is willing to be responsible and compromise, unfortunatly, the Laws have not changed to match the reality ....


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I think it is incredibly unfair and rude to have a dog off leash in a leash law area. No one knows if your dogs have 100% recall, so when they are walking their leashed dogs ( that are unfriendly to unleashed dogs running up to them when leashed), and see your loose dogs, they get panicked and quickly turn and try to go the other way to avoid your dogs seeing them. That's pretty much why I end up walking my 3 dogs at midnight. I shouldn't have to, as our city has a leash law, and I live in a very residential neighborhood. But people will let their dogs loose in their yard and then they run out at you when you walk past. So if I see ANY loose dogs, I turn around, with my heart racing, and go the other way. No one walking a dog (or just walking by) knows if your dogs are 100% reliable off leash, or if they will run out at you.

It's just flat out rude to think that because your dog is ok off leash, then you are ok breaking the leash laws. Plus, other people see you do it, and assume it's ok, and they let their untrained dog off leash.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

The place where I am going is within limits but no one is ever out there and it edges onto a swampy area.

Its actually a god sent to have that place within walking distance. Since no one else is using the Area; I do. 

Other than that, pretty much everyone on this topic seems to be in agreement. 

Common Sense goes a far way. 

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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

spotted nikes said:


> I think it is incredibly unfair and rude to have a dog off leash in a leash law area. No one knows if your dogs have 100% recall, so when they are walking their leashed dogs ( that are unfriendly to unleashed dogs running up to them when leashed), and see your loose dogs, they get panicked and quickly turn and try to go the other way to avoid your dogs seeing them. That's pretty much why I end up walking my 3 dogs at midnight. I shouldn't have to, as our city has a leash law, and I live in a very residential neighborhood. But people will let their dogs loose in their yard and then they run out at you when you walk past. So if I see ANY loose dogs, I turn around, with my heart racing, and go the other way. No one walking a dog (or just walking by) knows if your dogs are 100% reliable off leash, or if they will run out at you.
> 
> It's just flat out rude to think that because your dog is ok off leash, then you are ok breaking the leash laws. Plus, other people see you do it, and assume it's ok, and they let their untrained dog off leash.


Laws are made by people for people, and they need to reflect the people. 
If there are 90 folks outa 100 that enjoy off leash, I do think some accommodation needs to be made for them.
The 90% should not be relegated to a piss covered dirt patch surrounded by fence (and full of DA, and not voiced controlled dogs), and many dogs would go nuts in an indoor "daycare"... There are enough hours in a day for green spaces to be shared (see link in post above)...
I am not saying dogs should run amock, but I do think that the current leash laws need to change.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Not trying to turn this into a personal picture thread, but I thought it might be interesting to share pictures of the types of places we go off leash, for clarification.

This park is in the middle of my city. There's a narrow path to get down the hill, but once you're there... Road-width paths through an enormous meadow, which is shaved in winter, wide paths through the woods, paths to the river. There are actually homes way, way out of frame to left. This park is right in the middle of my city, but 4 people and another off leash dog is the most I've ever seen there at once. 

OffLeash by grinningd0g, on Flickr

A different park, also in my city. This one consists of fields surrounded by walking paths. The paths are well-frequented, but the fields are typically completely empty. We use the fields, even on days when the paths are busy. The path in this pic is right up against the tree line. There's about equal greenspace to the path out of frame behind me. To the left and right, there is about 2x as much greenspace til the path.

OffLeash4 by grinningd0g, on Flickr

Soccer parks are oft empty in winter. Paths are along the treeline. Every house has a fenced backyard.

GypsyChase by grinningd0g, on Flickr

These are the types of parks/trails I take her on at off hours. When I see someone, we leash up or down stay off the path.

OffLeash3 by grinningd0g, on Flickr

Off leash in the yard. The corner of our yard is the playset, and there's not much out of frame. It looks large because of the neighbors' yards, but I don't allow her there.

Agility Equip by grinningd0g, on Flickr


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Laws are made by people for people, and they need to reflect the people.
> If there are 90 folks outa 100 that enjoy off leash, I do think some accommodation needs to be made for them.
> The 90% should not be relegated to a piss covered dirt patch surrounded by fence (and full of DA, and not voiced controlled dogs), and many dogs would go nuts in an indoor "daycare"... There are enough hours in a day for green spaces to be shared (see link in post above)...
> I am not saying dogs should run amock, but I do think that the current leash laws need to change.


Its a real shame IMO, that the only place its legal to let your dog offleash in this city are the kind of thunderdome parks you mentioned. Not a lot of options for urban folk. Convention goes a really long way too I think. The park where we go offleash is colloquially referred to as 'the dog park'; its known to be a place where offleash dogs congregate. Most of the city is streets, parks, and parkettes where leash laws are just good sense and almost always in practice. There are lots of places where dog reactive dogs can go with relative assurance animals will be leashed. Personally I don't think its a great hardship to have a few spaces where the expectation is reversed. There is a conflict of interest between people who want to make use of the offleash space and those who have reactive/aggressive dogs or don't like dogs at all. There is room to have dedicated spaces for both.

As most people have said, common sense is a good guide.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

When I had Faxon, if I pulled up to a trail and didn't see anyone/any cars I would let her be loose. If I ran across someone and they were bothered I would leash her. Simple


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> I think it is incredibly unfair and rude to have a dog off leash in a leash law area. No one knows if your dogs have 100% recall, so when they are walking their leashed dogs ( that are unfriendly to unleashed dogs running up to them when leashed), and see your loose dogs, they get panicked and quickly turn and try to go the other way to avoid your dogs seeing them. That's pretty much why I end up walking my 3 dogs at midnight. I shouldn't have to, as our city has a leash law, and I live in a very residential neighborhood. But people will let their dogs loose in their yard and then they run out at you when you walk past. So if I see ANY loose dogs, I turn around, with my heart racing, and go the other way. No one walking a dog (or just walking by) knows if your dogs are 100% reliable off leash, or if they will run out at you.
> 
> It's just flat out rude to think that because your dog is ok off leash, then you are ok breaking the leash laws. Plus, other people see you do it, and assume it's ok, and they let their untrained dog off leash.


In regard to this, then, I am horribly rude, and I'm sorry. It is never my intention to cause other people anxiety. 

I do consider this, and short of staying on leash constantly, try to be as inoffensive as possible. We typically keep to the middle of the field and do obedience work, rather than long distance fetching, when people are on the paths. We've had people stop and stare at us before. I typically call out and ask if they'd like me to leash Gypsy. The watchers, though, are people who want to talk us and meet Gyp or are "Nah. Just watching!" We also don't approach people unless she's leashed. They approach/pass us with her in a down-stay, or I leash her as we pass. Even in the yard, we stay far from the road. 

If that does nothing to ease your anxiety, then I hope we're never at my park at the same time. :/ Though if you asked, I'd leash.

Gypsy and I have been charged by off-leash dogs, in the neighborhood and out, both while she's on leash and off, and I hate it. But I don't automatically stress when I see an off leash dog. The neighborhood is the worst, by far. If I see a dog in the yard, I usually cross the street to pass by or double back for a while.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes here are our areas. Also in the middle of town. But seriously open and also often there's only a few people in the entire 400 acre park. Nice sunny days it's crowded so we adjust and keep on our leash. But when the parking lot is near empty? I let them off leash.


DSC_1763 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Back in the woods way off the path:


DSC_1783 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

This is as close as we ever get to side walks. And if I see anyone coming I leash up.


phone10 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Mia working nosework off leash. That's as close as we get to people. We can keep distance easily.


mia by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Dried out lakebed where no one else is.


24 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Our main go to field. It's huge and easy to keep watch in.


DSC_0999 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly like I said, we've been going to these fields for years and most the time never see another dog or we see one way off in the distance. I'm not letting them loose around neighborhoods. 

My dogs aren't dog friendly really in that they're reactive if another dog runs up to us. Couple that with the fact that they're tiny dogs and I am extra careful about them NOT running up to other dogs. I've never had them run up to other dogs. We have had other dogs run up to us while mine are on leash. We've had zero instances when they're off leash and several when they're on just because of the fact that those areas are a lot more crowded.

I understand it is frustrating but I've also seen loads of dogs under very good voice control. And I think it is so good for at least my dogs' well being to be able to run around off leash and get to sniff out mice and roll in poo if they want. The fenced in dog park is completely unsafe and unsuitable for my dogs. So I take them out to empty spaces and let them run around several times a week.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I break the leash laws here. Legally, the only place my dogs can be off leash are in dog parks. And my dogs can't be in dog parks, but that doesn't mean I'm going to deprive them of off leash time. I don't let them off near any streets, only in a local bush area and at quiet times of the day. They both have brilliant recall. It's pretty open and I can see people coming a long way off, so I simply put them back on leash when I see people. If I get caught I will get fined, but I consider it worth it to give my dogs off leash time. A leash walk simply cannot compare to being able to run around and sniff and roll in things. A long line is an option, which I would use if it was necessary, but I don't consider it necessary in this area.

I wish this area was more like my old place in Europe, where the law simply states that dogs must be "under effective control", no leash required. Then at least I could have my dogs off leash without risking a fine.

Obi is reactive and Pixie doesn't enjoy interacting with other dogs, so it's not like I would let them run over to other people or dogs, or do anything to risk this accidentally happening.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

It depends on the circumstances, such as where you are and what time of day, but generally speaking, it pisses me off. It does so, because one of my dogs has fear aggression, and off leash dogs tend to set her off, especially if they get to close.

With that being said, we do let our dogs off leash to run, but it's easy to do so out here where there's large desert expanses that allow you to see for miles, and the likely hood of coming across someone, especially unexpectedly, walking their dog is pretty slim to none.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

BernerMax said:


> Laws are made by people for people, and they need to reflect the people.
> If there are 90 folks outa 100 that enjoy off leash, I do think some accommodation needs to be made for them.
> The 90% should not be relegated to a piss covered dirt patch surrounded by fence (and full of DA, and not voiced controlled dogs), and many dogs would go nuts in an indoor "daycare"... There are enough hours in a day for green spaces to be shared (see link in post above)...
> I am not saying dogs should run amock, but I do think that the current leash laws need to change.


90% of who though is the question? Even if 90% of dog owners wanted to enjoy off leash areas, that doesn't mean the 90% of the public wants it. You've got to consider the needs and wants of the say 60% of the public (taxpayers supporting those parks) that don't own dogs in addition to tourists and visitors who probably don't know the "culture" of the park or the de facto off-leash status.

I like the idea of designated times or days for off-leash use like NYC does. I'm fine with having some of the more open and rural type parks be "under effective control" if clearly designated as such but when a park says "Dogs must be on leash" on the sign at every entrance, people should have the right to expect on-leash only dogs.

I think some of my thoughts on this though come from where I live. It is urban and even though we have huge parks, the parks are rarely empty enough for 99.9% of dogs to be off-leash. I've seen off-leash dogs at Frisbee golf courses, on trails shared by walkers and horseback riders (a dog can spook a horse very easily), in PARKING LOTS, and near children's playgrounds in addition to the more open fields. 
I've seen a tiny handful of dogs that actually kept close enough to their owner not to encounter other people or dogs before their owner could call them back and an even smaller number that actually listened quickly enough and turned on a dime back to their owner. I'm sure those dogs exist, but I also think that too many people think they have a dog that will come back in an instant but the dog has just never really been put to the test.

Around here there are a lot of immigrants and refugees from countries where dogs are scary-- people who grow up used to dogs as guard dogs or strays with a high chance of rabies can be really frightened seeing a strange off-leash dog. They should have the ability to walk without worrying in the public parks. Of course anyone can be scared of dogs so IMO it isn't just about leashing up your dog when you see someone walking a dog, it is about anyone walking by.

I know that some people here have really high energy and high drive dogs, but I've also heard the excuse that a dog cannot get enough exercise on-leash (or in suitable fenced or indoor or private property areas) so the dog _needs_ to run loose in the parks from people who have no more high energy dogs than I do. Some of the pit bulls have been wild children with over the top energy and every one of them has been well exercised on-leash or in a fenced area.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

I think that if it's an on-leash trail, you should be on leash. Though clearly that depends on the park (some people seem to literally never see others on their hikes because they have the luxury of large parks). Ellie is indifferent about other dogs and Lincoln likes them. Even on leash. However, dogs that are usually friendly with other dogs usually have a problem with Lincoln because he is in tact. I would love to take the dogs on hikes through the woods (they would love it) but am nervous to because of potential encounters with off leash dogs. When we move there's going to be a HUUUUGE wooded park about a half an hour away, so hopefully there there will be enough space for us to walk undisturbed on on-leash trails.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Yes, off leash running/hiking is the only way Jewel will get tired. I used to walk her on leash for hours and it would do nothing to tire her out. Here are some pics of her enjoying the trails.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Question; we have a local park (not specifically a dog park but dogs are allowed) that has on leash and off leash areas. I haven't heard anyone mention something like that, is it common elsewhere? The areas aren't separated by gates or blocked off from one another or anything like that. There are just signs (you are now entering an off-leash dog area; you are now entering an on-leash area) when the rules change. Sort of similar to school zone signs.

It seems to work well (dogs are still allowed in the park anyway), and that way if you didn't like off leash dogs you could just stick to the on-leash paths. There are usually quite a few dogs there when we go and I haven't encountered a poorly behaved one off leash. Typically if we're walking they just walk right by or maybe come over to briefly sniff, I've never been jumped on rudely or anything like that.

Thoughts?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

BernerMax said:


> I guess cause.... where else are you going to, but by necessity break a leash law?


There is no "necessity" to break a leash law. There is no "necessity" for dogs to be walked off leash. Plenty of people manage to exercise their dogs physically and mentally on leash every single day. Maisy cannot be off leash anywhere in the city including off leash dog parks and she is a very high-energy dog. Yet, I manage to exercise her adequately. 



> There are a whole lot worse things than dogs off leash to worry about, really.


Not if you have a phobia of dogs or a child who does. Or have a reactive dog. Or you're elderly and are scared of getting jumped on by ill-mannered dogs (and you can't tell whose dog is ill-mannered and whose isn't from afar). Or you're driving and now have another thing competing for your attention (is that off leash dog going to dart into the road after a squirrel?).

People should have to worry about off leash dogs in populated, heavy use areas. I'm not talking about the remote, low density parks that people are posting pictures of, which I honestly don't really object to for the right dogs, but city neighborhoods, parks, and sidewalks.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

And these are the types of places I go off leash with the dogs. Some of them I know there are leash laws and some of them honestly I'm not sure because we've encountered authorities on our walks who haven't said anything about leashing.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

I will post some pics tomorrow when we have our Internet back  

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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It may or may not be absolutely 'necessary' for Mia to be off leash but I can tell you flat out that nothing we do has the same amount of benefit for her as off leash treks. She is visibly a lot more agitated and whiney and obnoxious if we skip the off leash days of our week. We can do everything else and double up on leashed walks and go to seminars on the weekends but there are days where she just really needs to run for a few hours. I also just plain think it's good mentally for dogs to let them just be dogs and explore at their own pace- provided it is safe to do so. I can't recreate sniffing out voles and finding a nice pile of deer poop to roll in. Summer wants to mark everything and kick up dirt. Mia loves climbing up and down the ravines over and over and racing through the woods. They both love racing full speed across the open fields. I wish we had parks that dogs were allowed at under voice control around here.

The only 'issue' I have had was in Texas when I was walking the dogs off leash to our usual field there and ran into some cops who said we couldn't because they were working their police dogs in the field. They didn't even mention the fact my dogs were off leash.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

sassafras said:


> People should have to worry about off leash dogs in populated, heavy use areas. I'm not talking about the remote, low density parks that people are posting pictures of, which I honestly don't really object to for the right dogs, but city neighborhoods, parks, and sidewalks.


Yep. Here are some examples of the areas in which I run into off-leash dogs (these are posted "on-leash") on at least a semi-regular basis. To me, it really illustrates the difference between the very remote parks and fields used by Sass and others vs the "city parks" and "walking trails" that really shouldn't have off-leash dogs.









Sidewalks, swings, a river (and not the kind a dog can play in either) and regular bike and pedestrian traffic. 









There's a major road on the edge of that field and it is a busy park near a university.


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## aero4ever (Jan 18, 2007)

There is an area in town that is wilderness area where I take my dogs every morning. While they are supposed to be on leash, I let them go. I don't think they could be any happier than when their chasing a rabbit, running a squirrel up a tree or digging for moles. We get out pretty early in the morning and don't usually run across a lot of people except others who also let their dogs off leash. On the occasion when there's been a jogger or walker, I call my dogs off to the side of the trail and have them sit until the other people/person passes. Most of the time they will comment on how well behaved they are, which always makes me feel good.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

My local park is probably an example of one of the more populated areas that people are talking about. The field is open but there are sidewalks where people walk through and a playground for children on the other side of the park. Aside from perhaps the dead of winter I can't think of any areas which are likely to be deserted, might be interesting to look more though - seems like a lot of people have found some. City streets and walking trails are definitely a no-go for offleash time. I see some other owners in my area doing that and frankly, I think its really dangerous for both the dogs and drivers. The park though... as I said there is an expectation that dogs will be offlead in "the dog park". There are lots of places in this city where they shouldn't be, I think every neighbourhood should hav at least one area where they can.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Oh why is this thread so provocative to me....
> I guess cause.... where else are you going to, but by necessity break a leash law?


I can totally see how larger or very high energy dogs are nearly impossible to exercise properly on leash. However, in my neighborhood, most of the people that break leash laws in my area don't _need _to. The actual off-leash area is a 3 minute drive or a 10 minute walk from my house, and most of the dogs that regularly walk around off-leash live in my condo complex. They are all small, relatively lower-energy breed dogs that get about one walk a month (and live without a yard!), and are not under voice control. The dogs here are off-leash because their owners are lazy, not because the dogs _need_ to be off-leash to get their exercise.

Using "living in a metro area" as justification for letting your dog off-leash against a leash-law is silly. How often do we recommend someone get a dog that fits their lifestyle? That includes living in a city that may not have adequate off-leash facilities.

Our weekly off-leash walk was at the park by our house today, so I have new photos! None of this is technically off-leash, but it is by convention. It is also very poorly signed.

Down in the ravine:


Snowball 007 by open_destiny, on Flickr

Snowball 001 by open_destiny, on Flickr

Up top, near the road:

Snowball 022 by open_destiny, on Flickr

Snowball 014 by open_destiny, on Flickr


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## Vivyd (Mar 8, 2013)

To be honest, I don't even know if there are leash laws in China. There are dog laws in the major cities, namely the one-dog policy. The law restricts each household to having only one dog and includes a size restriction - any dog over 14inchs/35cm tall is illegal, but as far as I've seen is never really enforced. 

My dogs are essentially only walked off leash. They get leashed up to go down the stairwell and then hop on the e-bike, driven to where ever we are going to walk and let loose. They're really good around people. Can't always say the same for people around them though. 

We regularly go to the city square, which is a sort of massive square/park thing. Hundreds and hundreds of people there every night and I let my dogs off leash there. They just stay close to us and run around sniffing and looking at everything. One of my favorite things to do with Linken is actually play hide and seek there. I will notice he's intently sniffing something and not paying too much attention to me...so I'll run off and hide and let him come find me.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> I can totally see how larger or very high energy dogs are nearly impossible to exercise properly on leash. However, in my neighborhood, most of the people that break leash laws in my area don't _need _to. The actual off-leash area is a 3 minute drive or a 10 minute walk from my house, and most of the dogs that regularly walk around off-leash live in my condo complex. They are all small, relatively lower-energy breed dogs that get about one walk a month (and live without a yard!), and are not under voice control. The dogs here are off-leash because their owners are lazy, not because the dogs _need_ to be off-leash to get their exercise.
> 
> Using "living in a metro area" as justification for letting your dog off-leash against a leash-law is silly. How often do we recommend someone get a dog that fits their lifestyle? That includes living in a city that may not have adequate off-leash facilities.


My dog is relatively small and lower-energy. I don't agree that should mean he lives his whole life on a 6 foot line. Even lower energy dogs get massive benefit from offleash time. Although in your example I do agree that if there is a designated offleash area within such close walking distance its irresponsible to use a leashed area for that purpose. I wish there was a real offlead area in my neighbourhood. I don't have a car and out of consideration for other commuters I don't take Pete on transit at crowded times (anytime from 8-11 or 4 to 7) so we're really limited in what we can access.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't care if people want to let their dogs off leash in the middle of no where, where there are rarely any people (like all of the pictures I see posted so far). I care when people let their dogs loose in neighborhoods or suburban areas. I live in a small town that neighbors a big city, people all over the place here let their dogs loose in their unfenced yards. Yes, it's their property, but I rarely actually see dogs STAY in the yards. It's so frustrating, especially when their owners are no where to be seen. And it makes it difficult for Syd and I because I don't have a fence, I have to take Syd out on a leash and we've narrowly missed loose dogs... because I take her in as soon as I see a loose dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My dogs look a lot lower energy off leash than they are, generally, because they're well behaved. Or heck on leash they look low energy too. They don't pay attention to other dogs and people and just walk nice and calmly next to me. We intersperse that with flat out sprints or getting to sniff and pee on 10000 things, climb, practice obedience, etc. They are fairly low key on walks for the most part though.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I don't care if people want to let their dogs off leash in the middle of no where, where there are rarely any people (like all of the pictures I see posted so far). I care when people let their dogs loose in neighborhoods or suburban areas. I live in a small town that neighbors a big city, people all over the place here let their dogs loose in their unfenced yards. Yes, it's their property, but I rarely actually see dogs STAY in the yards. It's so frustrating, especially when their owners are no where to be seen. And it makes it difficult for Syd and I because I don't have a fence, I have to take Syd out on a leash and we've narrowly missed loose dogs... because I take her in as soon as I see a loose dog.


A lot of people where we live just let the dogs out, shut the door, and holler for them hours later, I've noticed. My old neighbor did that with a pair of 8 week old puppies... It was so sad they were so starved for attention as soon as they saw me they would roll all over my feet and lick my ankles. They were always dirty and wet from rolling in puddles. 

I think we feel strongly because it is such a huge issue here, there are so many ignorant dog owners that I see every day!


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I don't care if people want to let their dogs off leash in the middle of no where, where there are rarely any people (like all of the pictures I see posted so far). I care when people let their dogs loose in neighborhoods or suburban areas. I live in a small town that neighbors a big city, people all over the place here let their dogs loose in their unfenced yards. Yes, it's their property, but I rarely actually see dogs STAY in the yards. It's so frustrating, especially when their owners are no where to be seen. And it makes it difficult for Syd and I because I don't have a fence, I have to take Syd out on a leash and we've narrowly missed loose dogs... because I take her in as soon as I see a loose dog.


I agree with this 100% I would never let my dog off leash in an urban area. I only let her off leash in this one low density area. Last night for instance, we were out for 2 hours and saw a total of 2 people, both whom were exercising their dogs off leash. I think it is extremely relative to your community and neighbourhood. I use good judgement and only let Jewel loose in this one area because it is so remote. If for one second I got the impression that it was frowned upon by my neighbours, I wouldn't be doing it. When I first got Jewel, I used the trails to walk her leashed and people used to comment that it was the first time they'd seen a dog on leash. We have a small community (total of 5 streets) and I know most of our neighbours. I think someone would have put up a stink by now if it was posing a problem. That being said, we've never ran into any un-behaved dogs on the trails, with the exception of one puppy who likes to play a little rough.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aiw said:


> My dog is relatively small and lower-energy. I don't agree that should mean he lives his whole life on a 6 foot line.


That's the point of a long leash. If the space is wide open to play fetch and such, then a 35-50 foot leash or horse lunge line gives about as much running room as most people can throw a ball anyway. For trails or slightly smaller (but still not crowded) areas, a 15 foot leash gives even a big dog meandering and sniffing room. Not only does a long line give physical control of the dog should voice control fail, but it allows other people to SEE that the dog is under control and not just HOPE that the dog is obedient. 

















Lots of running room, the dog barely realizes she is on a leash but it is quite visible to others


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

A long leash would be considered breaking the leash laws in our city as the law states that the leash cannot exceed 3 metres (10 feet). I don't see the difference between a 50 foot leash and my dog walking 6 feet away from my off leash. I can call my off leash dog to me quicker if need be than I could reel in a 50 foot leash.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Like some, I'm on the fence. If a dog is truly under voice control and not running up to every person and dog it sees, I have no problem with it no matter what the law is. I have seen a couple off leash dogs on my local rail trail and the one who bothered me was the lab who ran right in front of my bike (I was previously going about 15mph on a light road bike). When I seemed concerned, the owner said "She's friendly!" Uh, yeah, until I run her over and hurt both of us. The other dogs I've seen were under voice control and wanted nothing to do with people or dogs besides their owner, and I don't really have a problem with that.

We don't have any off leash areas here except a few thunderdome style dog parks, and the one near me costs $50 per year per dog which is silly. The field on my property is just as big.

When Watson was better off leash (pre-teenage months) I let him off leash on our local rail trail if I couldn't see anyone (1/2 mile visability in each direction). As soon as somebody appeared, he was leashed. I also limited it to winter months when there was snow on the ground, because no bikes would sneak up on us. There's a lake off the trail with dirt roads around it and I've walked him off leash there too. Technically the lake area is no trespassing, but it's been deserted for 15 years since a development company bought it and never built on it, that's another risk I'm taking.

So basically, in a remote area, where you can see what's coming, and with a dog under voice control, I don't have issues with people who break leash laws. In populated areas where lots of people are walking, I think leash laws should be followed, but I'm not really bothered by the rare dog who is perfectly under control (and I know my dog won't ever be in that category).


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

d_ray said:


> I don't see the difference between a 50 foot leash and my dog walking 6 feet away from my off leash. I can call my off leash dog to me quicker if need be than I could reel in a 50 foot leash.


If your dog is walking 6 feet away, he could be on a 3 meter leash and be legal 

Other people don't know if you can call your dog or not. If you can call your dog off-leash, you can still call him to you while on a long line. The difference is that someone walking by knows that your dog has a physical limit (end of the leash) and knows that you can reel them in. Off-leash, no sure reassurance. 

Some places don't specify leash length. Even the places that do specify leash length where _technically_ a long line doesn't count as "leashed" there is a difference to the general public of a dog running loose vs a dog on a line.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> If your dog is walking 6 feet away, he could be on a 3 meter leash and be legal
> 
> Other people don't know if you can call your dog or not. If you can call your dog off-leash, you can still call him to you while on a long line. The difference is that someone walking by knows that your dog has a physical limit (end of the leash) and knows that you can reel them in. Off-leash, no sure reassurance.
> 
> Some places don't specify leash length. Even the places that do specify leash length where _technically_ a long line doesn't count as "leashed" there is a difference to the general public of a dog running loose vs a dog on a line.



I gotta be honest? I hate long lines presented as a safer, better alternative to off leash. 

They're safer to the dog on them, or dogs who won't recall They're not really safer to the general public, the same way a flexileash isn't. They shouldn't, IMO, be used anywhere that you're likely to encounter other people or dogs (loose or not), or residential areas. They're all the risk of a loose dog within those 50/100 feet, plus a tangling risk. You have minimal control over your dog on that line and no, you can't see them in grass or weeds. They're barely noticeable even in your pictures. You certainly can't tell the entire length of them and how far away you need to stay, they still require people with dogs who aren't dog friendly to steer clear (or people who aren't dog friendly to do so). They just don't make the off leash thing better, except in preventing your dog from leaving, and adding the risk of the dog tripping, tangling, or getting stuck together with another dog if more than one is running on them. Or tangling someone else or their dog up.

Using them as an alternative to off leash for a dog who doesn't have the skills to stick close and recall. That is *ALL*, IMO, they achieve. I would never dream of using one any place I wouldn't allow a well trained dog off leash - possibly even fewer, because of things like undergrowth and limited visibility.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Plus, you would probably still break the law using a leash longer than 6ft.

In my city, if YOUR property is not fenced in, you will have to keep your dog leashed, now here is the kicker, tie outs are Illegal as well...so what are you going to do? 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

As for places we go off leash -


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

We have a 35 ft long line but it was a hassle. I only used it a few times with puppy mia then I switched to letting her go with a drag line. The main issue with long lines is I have not found one suitable to < 20 lb dogs really. The hardware on ours is HUGE and the leash is more than 2x wider than their usual line. She was sprinting and hitting the end of it in a way I didn't like as well and it got tangled constantly or I was tripping over it/constantly reeling it in and out. I like draglines a LOT better but they still are not good for wooded areas as the dog will end up caught in the brush most the time. They are also illegal as your leash is supposed to be under 6 ft. In fact my regular Mia leash is probably a couple feet too long to be legal. :/

My dogs stay very close off leash- Summer is usually hitting into my feet, lol. But they do like to stop and sniff and then sprint to catch up. That kind of thing. Mia likes divebombing the bushes...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> We have a 35 ft long line but it was a hassle. I only used it a few times with puppy mia then I switched to letting her go with a drag line. The main issue with long lines is I have not found one suitable to < 20 lb dogs really. The hardware on ours is HUGE and the leash is more than 2x wider than their usual line. She was sprinting and hitting the end of it in a way I didn't like as well and it got tangled constantly or I was tripping over it/constantly reeling it in and out. I like draglines a LOT better but they still are not good for wooded areas as the dog will end up caught in the brush most the time. They are also illegal as your leash is supposed to be under 6 ft. In fact my regular Mia leash is probably a couple feet too long to be legal. :/
> 
> My dogs stay very close off leash- Summer is usually hitting into my feet, lol. But they do like to stop and sniff and then sprint to catch up. That kind of thing. Mia likes divebombing the bushes...



This is likely influencing me. My dogs, on leash or off are ON MY BUTT. If they're in a field or river and I"m engaging them with throwing a ball or encouraging them to chase each other they'll go out to play or get the ball, but mostly? They orbit me - and 6 feet is tentative. In truth, it's more like four. I've made and used a long line when Kylie was young and it did not work for me at all. She and the other dogs were getting tangled up, I was tripping, it was wet, heavy, and gross (water), and just accomplished absolutely nothing except keeping her from running away. It did, however, prevent quite a bit more hazard than letting her drag her leash or just letting her off entirely. 

I'm not saying my dogs will never run off under the right circumstance; they're dogs, and I can't predict everything. If it happens though, I'm going to be shocked because it jut. doesn't happen. They're not even dogs who wander away to sniff and explore or chase things. They're ON ME. It's what I've trained and encouraged and very much just the kind of dogs they are.

And kinds of places we go?


















We're not running into people. We're really, really not. We have to walk past people, parks and houses to get to them but they're on leash, then.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, and also? I think that with some dogs never being off leash can be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Not all dogs, no, but I DO think there are benefits for a dog being off leash, or at least practicing things like leash drops. However, you combine a dog who never experiences being off leash with a dog who loves to run, and you hit a situation where that leash drops or the collar breaks (or the dog door dashes), you're going to have ISSUES when the dog discovers that those situations are an opportunity to self-reward with something super high value (running!). I think most dogs should get to be off leash sometimes, and I think it's a vital part of training.

I just don't think it should be done at someone else's risk or expense. There are ways to at least drastically minimize that, and I don't think 'dog likes to run/needs exercise' is an excuse not to do that minimization.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I gotta be honest? I hate long lines presented as a safer, better alternative to off leash.
> 
> They're safer to the dog on them, or dogs who won't recall They're not really safer to the general public, the same way a flexileash isn't. They shouldn't, IMO, be used anywhere that you're likely to encounter other people or dogs (loose or not), or residential areas. They're all the risk of a loose dog within those 50/100 feet, plus a tangling risk. You have minimal control over your dog on that line and no, you can't see them in grass or weeds. They're barely noticeable even in your pictures. You certainly can't tell the entire length of them and how far away you need to stay, they still require people with dogs who aren't dog friendly to steer clear (or people who aren't dog friendly to do so). They just don't make the off leash thing better, except in preventing your dog from leaving, and adding the risk of the dog tripping, tangling, or getting stuck together with another dog if more than one is running on them. Or tangling someone else or their dog up.
> 
> Using them as an alternative to off leash for a dog who doesn't have the skills to stick close and recall. That is *ALL*, IMO, they achieve. I would never dream of using one any place I wouldn't allow a well trained dog off leash - possibly even fewer, because of things like undergrowth and limited visibility.


I think that depends on the length of the line and the area. In my photos, I'm on private property so it isn't being reeled in and out. But keeping a long line reeled in and out and using an appropriate length does keep back-up control. It means that IF voice command fails (and a stranger walking or driving by has no idea if voice control will work on a dog or not) that there is a limit to how far the dog can go. The length of the leash should be suitable to the area. If there is limited visibility, I don't think either a long leash or off-leash is appropriate because you can't call your dog off what you can't see. If the area is very open, at least people can see from a distance there is some kind of physical control; they'd be giving a wide berth anyway to an off-leash dog if they feared dogs or had a DA dog with them but with a line strangers don't have to put quite as much trust in the recall of an unknown dog. They are more visible than a flexileash and give the ability to reel the dog in that a typical thin strand flexileash doesn't.

I'm not saying that long leashes are automatically the perfect alternative to being off leash. What I'm saying is there is AN alternative between a dog living his whole life on a 6-ft leash as Aiw said would be sad and just being let off-leash as a "necessity" 
It depends on your area's laws, your dog and the terrain. 

For example, I used to take Chester to run around a large vacant area that was owned by the city but wasn't a park. No people walking around, no dogs but there was a road with moderate low-speed traffic. I kept the bright orange line up and visible, he never tangled on anything and one day when a cop stopped me, the cop said that she appreciated being able to know he was "leashed" and had no complaints about the length of the line and it was good for drivers to be able to see he couldn't dart into the road but noted that had I not had that line on him, I would have been cited.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> Oh, and also? I think that with some dogs never being off leash can be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Not all dogs, no, but I DO think there are benefits for a dog being off leash, or at least practicing things like leash drops. However, you combine a dog who never experiences being off leash with a dog who loves to run, and you hit a situation where that leash drops or the collar breaks (or the dog door dashes), you're going to have ISSUES when the dog discovers that those situations are an opportunity to self-reward with something super high value (running!). I think most dogs should get to be off leash sometimes, and I think it's a vital part of training.
> 
> I just don't think it should be done at someone else's risk or expense. There are ways to at least drastically minimize that, and I don't think 'dog likes to run/needs exercise' is an excuse not to do that minimization.


Yes very much so. I've seen it in dog sports too. Dogs that never are let off leash go NUTS when you try to work them off leash. I accidentally dropped Summer's leash in the middle of a crowded petsmart the other day and she just stood there. My dogs can work off agility leash in the front yard (it's our only practice spot other than the illegal park field) and hold a down stay while people pass or come when I call to kennel them when a dog is down the street. They can load in and out of the car and go between car and house without issue. I like my dogs being very used to that and knowing that leash or not, they stay with me. 

My terrier foster would bolt at any opportunity and once pulled out of the leash. It took FOREVER to catch her and I was really scared we just wouldn't catch her. Any time she was outside she was just waiting to test boundaries so she could go run and explore.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> I think that depends on the length of the line and the area. In my photos, I'm on private property so it isn't being reeled in and out. But keeping a long line reeled in and out and using an appropriate length does keep back-up control. It means that IF voice command fails (and a stranger walking or driving by has no idea if voice control will work on a dog or not) that there is a limit to how far the dog can go. The length of the leash should be suitable to the area. If there is limited visibility, I don't think either a long leash or off-leash is appropriate because you can't call your dog off what you can't see. If the area is very open, at least people can see from a distance there is some kind of physical control; they'd be giving a wide berth anyway to an off-leash dog if they feared dogs or had a DA dog with them but with a line strangers don't have to put quite as much trust in the recall of an unknown dog. They are more visible than a flexileash and give the ability to reel the dog in that a typical thin strand flexileash doesn't.
> 
> I'm not saying that long leashes are automatically the perfect alternative to being off leash. What I'm saying is there is AN alternative between a dog living his whole life on a 6-ft leash as Aiw said would be sad and just being let off-leash as a "necessity"
> It depends on your area's laws, your dog and the terrain.
> ...


It definitely depends on area, terrain and location. I think off leash is good for dogs, for a number of reasons, but I don't think that trumps people's rights to safely walk their own dogs or enjoy places.

But they are, IMO, an additional hazard to a dog who is under reasonable voice control, rather than a safety measure. Not always! But in a lot of places? Yeah, I really do. I mean you're on private property, your dog comes when called and sticks close, roads are not an issue - what are you actually accomplishing with that thing? Not snarky, but I really, really don't think there's much benefit in those areas. Even in more public/busy areas - you have better control if your dog is going to bolt, but you aren't really reassuring anyone/making them feel safer than someone walking a dog on a flexi. Even if I CAN see in the grass/weeds/underbrush, AND know how long it is I don't know you and if you're responsible? I'm still going to worry - and if I'm driving and I notice, DITTO because I have less time to observe. They're not even really more visible and I've never found them easier to reel in than a flexi lead (harder, even, because I have to wrangle the length and bulk of the thing, rather than having it spool. Maybe if the leash law is written without a length in play, it saves you a ticket. 

But I'd take the ticket before I'd take the risk of a dog running and playing hard on a long line on anything but mowed, level grass - and it'd have to be a single dog, because two dogs with that much leash (or more)? Nuh-uh.

Different views. I'm not saying you're bad, and I *don't* think being off leash is a necessity at all or there aren't times and places for long leads (or dogs who are better with them), but they are not something I would use for more than training recall under EXTREMELY controlled circumstances. Again: just personal preference and explaining my issues with them, not attacking.



Laurelin said:


> Yes very much so. I've seen it in dog sports too. Dogs that never are let off leash go NUTS when you try to work them off leash. I accidentally dropped Summer's leash in the middle of a crowded petsmart the other day and she just stood there. My dogs can work off agility leash in the front yard (it's our only practice spot other than the illegal park field) and hold a down stay while people pass or come when I call to kennel them when a dog is down the street. They can load in and out of the car and go between car and house without issue. I like my dogs being very used to that and knowing that leash or not, they stay with me.
> 
> My terrier foster would bolt at any opportunity and once pulled out of the leash. It took FOREVER to catch her and I was really scared we just wouldn't catch her. Any time she was outside she was just waiting to test boundaries so she could go run and explore.


Yep! One of my first priorities with the dogs is that if the leash drops, their response is to initially SIT DOWN AND STAY THERE, but the absolute first? Stick close, pay attention, do as your asked without the leash being part of the cue and recall. It all rolls together into a big ball of 'off leash skills'. Jack, Frost, and Bug came as adults but are all super velcro and came with those skills. Kylie and Bug had it hammered in from teeny. I've hooked leashes to tag holders and had them break, I've had collars pop open, I've had all sorts of stupid accidents happen and what I haven't had with this set of dogs, where I forced myself to consistently work them off leash even when it scares me, is dogs that bolt or door dash, or that I can't get back again. 

Not saying that works for every dog or breed, but it is *IMPORTANT*, IMO, to do as much of it as you can. It's a safety skill in its own right.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

How fortunate that the only alternatives for dogs aren't living "their whole life" on a 6' line or breaking leash laws. Make a playdate with a friend with a fenced yard, or join a meetup group. Get involved in a dog sport. See if a local training club will rent out some indoor or outdoor space. Campaign for a designated off leash park in your area. Get creative. Yes, it all takes more effort than just deciding that you're commandeering a public space. 

And again, to be clear... I'm not talking about these wide open spaces that people are posting pictures of. My experience is more like Shell's... When I say city parks, I'm talking about green space that is heavily used with roads, walking and bike trails, picnic areas, disc golf, etc. all in close proximity to each other. Places where other people's enjoyment of the public space can really be inhibited by off leash dogs. Or in the residential neighborhood on the sidewalks or walking trails, or people having their dogs loose in their yards while they do yard work, etc.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Just going to throw out there that I was able to properly exercise a husky mix whilst he was on lead. Bae's entire life strikes me as "on leash" because of his tendency to jump over any fence and to run like the ****ens forever. Being off leash for him was/is extremely dangerous, even in remote areas. Maybe it is "sad" but it's for his own safety and the safety of other dogs around him. For the record, I highly doubt he'll ever have recall. 

There certainly are benefits to being off leash but I do not deem it _necessary_ for any dog. You just have to get creative. :/


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Even in more public/busy areas - you have better control if your dog is going to bolt, but you aren't really reassuring anyone/making them feel safer than someone walking a dog on a flexi. Even if I CAN see in the grass/weeds/underbrush, AND know how long it is I don't know you and if you're responsible? I'm still going to worry - and if I'm driving and I notice, DITTO because I have less time to observe. They're not even really more visible and I've never found them easier to reel in than a flexi lead (harder, even, because I have to wrangle the length and bulk of the thing, rather than having it spool. Maybe if the leash law is written without a length in play, it saves you a ticket.
> 
> But I'd take the ticket before I'd take the risk of a dog running and playing hard on a long line on anything but mowed, level grass - and it'd have to be a single dog, because two dogs with that much leash (or more)? Nuh-uh.
> 
> Different views. I'm not saying you're bad, and I *don't* think being off leash is a necessity at all or there aren't times and places for long leads (or dogs who are better with them), but they are not something I would use for more than training recall under EXTREMELY controlled circumstances. Again: just personal preference and explaining my issues with them, not attacking.


I agree about the 2 dogs for sure. 

But a non-dog owner I think is typically reassured by a flexi or a long line. It is something tangible. I'm not a flexi-leash fan but at least when I see someone using it, I can pause and give them time to lock the leash as opposed to the people that say "Don't worry, he's well trained" while the dog stands loose 5 feet from them. Maybe the dog is well trained, but then again, maybe not. 

Here's the thing for me: I have over and over encountered dogs in public parks that the owners _thought_ were under reasonable voice control. Right up until those dogs ran from some distance up to mine. Yes, the leash may not have taken effect until the dog reached the end of it (although at least when the owner was flailing behind the dog 30 feet away they'd have had something to grab) but it would have stopped the dog before getting to me. 
For example, I had Chester out at a public park that has some very large fields and he's on a 6 ft leash. Plenty of space in the park. Guy has a St Bernard puppy that's probably 6 months old off-leash. Puppy comes running towards us from about 400 feet away. I shout for him to call his dog. He calls his dog. Dog doesn't listen. He starts to chase his dog while calling it. Dog doesn't listen. Dog comes all the way up to Chester while the owner catches up. Guy swears up and down the dog has never run off before  Preferably that dog should have been on a regular 6 ft leash but since there is wide open space, a 15-25 foot leash would have easily kept the dog away from any people or dogs and not allowed his recall to fail. 

A "long line" doesn't always mean 50 feet or whatever, it could be just 15 feet say that gives the dog enough room to sniff in the brush or creek without the owner stepping in the mud or water for example.

Of course, a lot of the owners I'm seeing with off leash dogs are NOT the same type of people that are active here with well trained dogs. I'm simply saying that just because a dog isn't or cannot be off-leash doesn't mean they have to live their life on a 6 foot leash either given proper caution and location. 



> I mean you're on private property, your dog comes when called and sticks close, roads are not an issue - what are you actually accomplishing with that thing?


For me specifically? Like the dog in the photo? Even though that dog was an orbiter and came when called every time I called her, she A) was a foster and not legally mine so even a tiny chance of her getting loose was unacceptable B) there was a tiny chance of recall failing and a loose pit bull is NOT going to be well received by the public and C) on the off chance there was someone else there or someone saw her, I can hold up the leash and reduce the "OMG LOOSE PIT BULL!" panic



sassafras said:


> And again, to be clear... I'm not talking about these wide open spaces that people are posting pictures of. My experience is more like Shell's... When I say city parks, I'm talking about green space that is heavily used with roads, walking and bike trails, picnic areas, disc golf, etc. all in close proximity to each other. Places where other people's enjoyment of the public space can really be inhibited by off leash dogs. Or in the residential neighborhood on the sidewalks or walking trails, or people having their dogs loose in their yards while they do yard work, etc.


The yard thing is a very good example. I put Chester on a tie-out (attached to a harness) when I want to sit outside on the front porch with him or garden in the front yard. So he's supervised and while he was bad about chasing cats when I first got him, I don't think he's even walked to the end of the tie-out in the past 2 years. He will sit completely still when people walk by on the sidewalk. All the time, I overhear one walker say to another walker "Oh good, he's tied" or if someone looks hesitant, I can point to his harness and the connection and say "He's on a line" and they visibly relax as they walk by. 
Whereas I've walked past at least a half dozen yards where the person says 'Oh he won't leave the yard" and then the dog is halfway down the sidewalk chasing me a few seconds later....


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

We've never owned a fenced-in yard. For the first ~1.5 years of Gyp's life, both in the yard and at the park, she was on a 30 ft line. Even now, if anyone but me exercises her in the yard, she's put on the drag line. She's not off leash unless I'm actively engaging her.

The 30 ft drag line really isn't useful anymore. My dog orbits me when we walk off leash - herding behavior, I think, so I'm constantly untangling myself. I have HORRIBLE scars on each ankle from when I threw the ball one summer without knowing the drag line was wrapped around my legs. Gypsy took off after the ball, and the leash whipped around my ankles and skinned them. Similar thing, not as bad, happened to my brother. Not to mention Gypsy catches the lead on rocks and around trees and has some nasty gags as a result. And it's still illegal, technically, with our 6 ft leash requirement. The only benefit I can see, using it now, would be for other people walking by, the security in knowing she's leashed. That's assuming, though, that they even notice our 30 ft drag line at a distance, when I'm working her...



> The other dogs I've seen were under voice control and wanted nothing to do with people or dogs besides their owner, and I don't really have a problem with that.


This is how Gyp is. I don't just let her off leash to do her thing. I'm working her constantly, and she has no interest in anything but me and her tennis ball.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Shell said:


> I agree about the 2 dogs for sure.
> 
> But a non-dog owner I think is typically reassured by a flexi or a long line. It is something tangible. I'm not a flexi-leash fan but at least when I see someone using it, I can pause and give them time to lock the leash as opposed to the people that say "Don't worry, he's well trained" while the dog stands loose 5 feet from them. Maybe the dog is well trained, but then again, maybe not.
> 
> ...


You sound like such a considerate person! I wish more people would realize the panic that some people have when they see off leash dogs. Whether it is someone that is scared of loose dogs, or someone with a tiny dog being walked, or someone with dogs that are fear reactive when leashed and approached by a loose dog...


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I am trying to picture the disaster that would occure if i tried to run my dogs on long lines lol...I am picturing me in a giant knot will all my dogs hog tied on the ground from racing over and under eachother lol


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Yes very much so. I've seen it in dog sports too. Dogs that never are let off leash go NUTS when you try to work them off leash. I accidentally dropped Summer's leash in the middle of a crowded petsmart the other day and she just stood there. My dogs can work off agility leash in the front yard (it's our only practice spot other than the illegal park field) and hold a down stay while people pass or come when I call to kennel them when a dog is down the street. They can load in and out of the car and go between car and house without issue. I like my dogs being very used to that and knowing that leash or not, they stay with me.
> 
> My terrier foster would bolt at any opportunity and once pulled out of the leash. It took FOREVER to catch her and I was really scared we just wouldn't catch her. Any time she was outside she was just waiting to test boundaries so she could go run and explore.


This. When my female was a puppy, she went on off leash hikes from day one with my adults. 
She never ran from me. No matter which dog it is, they spend as little time as possible on leash and they don't run from me either.

If a dog doesn't learn that you cannot trust your dog. 
Teaching a dog a solid recall, isn't all that hard.
That being said, the breed plays a lot into it. I would never take a Husky, Malamut off leash. Not sure if I would ever own a Sighthound either. 

Shepherds are easy to train and it really doesn't take much to bind them to you.

http://youtu.be/WN69TFicTDY 

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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Maisy is selectively dog reactive, dog-socially retarded, and can be a huge bully to other dogs. But I guess I'll have to start walking her off leash around the neighborhood so I can teach her not to follow her plott-y nose away from me and if other people don't like it, they just need to realize my dog NEEDS to be off leash or she'll go insane. I think that's my reasonable right as a taxpayer.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

If it's not safe to let your dog off leash, then don't. Everyone has emphasized that off leash time can be very beneficial if it is _safe_ for your dog and your area.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, but what everyone seems to be glossing over is that _other people_ might not feel safe seeing your dogs off leash even if _you_ feel you and your dog are safe. 

Sure, it seems like no big deal until you're terrified of dogs, or until you know the anxiety of worrying about an off leash dog approach your on-leash, dog reactive dog. Again, I'm not talking about big tracts of lightly populated open space. I'm talking about multi-used and heavily used areas. I live in a metro area with a lot of well maintained green space, and it's a shame when other people feel like they have to curtail their activity in those public spaces because a few people just "know" their dog is fine.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I haven't seen anyone here recommend that people let their dogs loose in highly populated areas....?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I haven't seen anyone here recommend that people let their dogs loose in highly populated areas....?


I've seen at least three in this thread, including one who thinks breaking leash laws in a city is a "necessity."


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Yes, but what everyone seems to be glossing over is that _other people_ might not feel safe seeing your dogs off leash even if _you_ feel you and your dog are safe.
> 
> Sure, it seems like no big deal until you're terrified of dogs, or until you know the anxiety of worrying about an off leash dog approach your on-leash, dog reactive dog. Again, I'm not talking about big tracts of lightly populated open space. I'm talking about multi-used and heavily used areas. I live in a metro area with a lot of well maintained green space, and it's a shame when other people feel like they have to curtail their activity in those public spaces because a few people just "know" their dog is fine.


I have a dog that is dog reactive on leash and no one is promoting to let them off leash in a highly populated and frequented area. 

If you have an open area you can see a dog coming from a mile away and everyone said they call them back immediately.

We have been attacked by off leash dogs on the Beach where no owner was in sight. 
We just got off the boardwalk, all our dogs were on leash. 
The same thing happened in my own neighborhood. 
We all make our experiences. I flinch everytime I see that Lab off leash, walking behind his owner next to a four lane street. No matter if a dog doesn't run, you don't take it off on a four lane, high traffic road. 

Again, common sense goes a long way!
One can still be considerate even if you chose to take a dog off leash and it certainly doesn't mean that we don't know what its like to have a reactive dog on leash! 
Its why we don't take them off in dense areas. Its why we seek out remote places where you can see a dog coming and its why our dogs have reliable recalls and why we leash them as soon as we see you. 



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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I've seen at least three in this thread, including one who thinks breaking leash laws in a city is a "necessity."


Yeah, but none of us talking about the benefits of off leash training were that person? In fact I specifically said that sort of thing was horrifically irresponsible and repeatedly said that no one else should have to be impacted by that, because of risks to other people and animals and their comfort and safety, in the first post about the subject.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Maisy is selectively dog reactive, dog-socially retarded, and can be a huge bully to other dogs. But I guess I'll have to start walking her off leash around the neighborhood so I can teach her not to follow her plott-y nose away from me and if other people don't like it, they just need to realize my dog NEEDS to be off leash or she'll go insane. I think that's my reasonable right as a taxpayer.


My dogs have been living their whole lives trapped on the end of a leash.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Maisy is selectively dog reactive, dog-socially retarded, and can be a huge bully to other dogs. But I guess I'll have to start walking her off leash around the neighborhood so I can teach her not to follow her plott-y nose away from me and if other people don't like it, they just need to realize my dog NEEDS to be off leash or she'll go insane. I think that's my reasonable right as a taxpayer.


Gypsy is disinterested in other dogs when working, though well-socialized, polite and submissive toward other dogs. I still NEVER walk her off leash around the neighborhood, for any reason. She IS off leash in my yard (which is legal around here, I think), away from the road where people walk, when I'm actively engaging her. She does not wander; I do not let her. She benefits highly from off leash activity, and it would be extremely challenging for me personally to meet her needs on leash. When I take her to places with leash laws, I realize I'm in the wrong and would take complete responsibility should an incident occur. I would also leash her if asked. 

I don't know how this is the same? There's someone who walks their lab, well, all over peoples yards and driveways in the neighborhood and that drives me nuts too.

We use public soccer parks with huge, unused greenspace. Most of the time it's completely empty of people and dogs. And when it's populated, we tuck out of the way and do close obedience work. We've had numerous people make positive comments. Absolutely no one, in the three years we've been going, multiple times per week, has made a negative comment, called AC/police, or asked us to leash. If there are folks bothered by what we do, the way we do it, they're in the very small minority and staying completely silent.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Yes very much so. I've seen it in dog sports too. Dogs that never are let off leash go NUTS when you try to work them off leash. I accidentally dropped Summer's leash in the middle of a crowded petsmart the other day and she just stood there. My dogs can work off agility leash in the front yard (it's our only practice spot other than the illegal park field) and hold a down stay while people pass or come when I call to kennel them when a dog is down the street. They can load in and out of the car and go between car and house without issue. I like my dogs being very used to that and knowing that leash or not, they stay with me.
> 
> My terrier foster would bolt at any opportunity and once pulled out of the leash. It took FOREVER to catch her and I was really scared we just wouldn't catch her. Any time she was outside she was just waiting to test boundaries so she could go run and explore.



The longer I work with Watson, the more I think that people who believe this have dogs who naturally orbit. I spent 9+ months with him off leash every single day on our property, and then one day he decided that hunting was way more fun than sticking with me and he was off. He's not a dog to run off forever, but he will absolutely run and sniff everything he can and hunt for things, including out of sight. Sometimes he's good off leash in classes, and sometimes he zooms around checking things out before he decides I might be more interesting.

Having a dog off leash all the time from a young age is no guarantee of having an adult who is decent off leash. Maybe he's better than he would've been if I hadn't laid that foundation, who knows. But I'm starting to think all of those techniques only produce great results for a dog who is naturally inclined to it already.

My friends' dog has a fantastic recall and can be trusted on off leash hikes. He came this way and they've never trained him or particularly worked on it. I've worked on it like crazy with Watson and I still don't totally trust him, though I do trust that he won't run and run and run forever (but I think that's his nature more than my training).

ETA: Not saying I've given up on having him off leash, but I don't think it would be possible to train him to stick right next to me. It's just not in his nature and his instinct is to hunt semi-independently.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

MaDeuce said:


> The place where I am going is within limits but no one is ever out there and it edges onto a swampy area.
> 
> Its actually a god sent to have that place within walking distance. Since no one else is using the Area; I do.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are lucky. There is an area that is about a 40 minute drive from me where I will go frequently and take my dogs. It is not an official off leash area, it is a park but in my many many times going there over the past years, I have run into a handful of other people. I am always on alert for people however and I hear them before I see them as it is a wooded area with trails. I always snap my dogs on leash as that is the right thing to do. Nobody should have to suddenly encounter a dog that SHOULD be on leash. My dogs have excellent recall, thankfully and we work that all the time. In all my years of going there, I ran into (or rather he ran into me) one other dog that came barreling around a corner and body slammed me. Then it took off after my dogs that were about 20 feet away up the hill in the trees. (they were looking for lost children) The dog was friendly but that wasn't the point. The guy finally caught up to his dog and said "Oh, are your dogs friendly?" I said "Lucky for your dog, yes." The bunch of them (my dogs and his) ran around like nut cases for about 10 minutes then he finally caught his dog and went on down the trail. 

I will also admit that when I go walking at 2:00 am, I have been known to purposely take one of my dogs off leash. I feel it is safer for me, and again, my dogs have good recall. In my years of doing that I have run into 1 other person at that time in the morning and it was a police officer. I think he thought I was drunk as he asked me if I was alright. When I said Yes, he said "Ma'am, do you KNOW that it is 2:00 AM? ha ha I told him I have to be to work by 4:00 am and the dogs needed their walk. You would think he might have figured that out when a woman is walking down the street (speed walking) in yoga pants and tennis shoes with 2 big dogs.  

When people do not use common sense, their dog is not well trained (even if it is friendly) it makes me mad when they do not follow the leash laws. I HATE when I am walking my dogs and another dog approaches. Which is another reason I go at that obscene hour. No dogs out either.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Our pup isn't so great with recall at the moment. She gets super excited and I KNOW she will run up to anyone she sees. When we go to off-leash dog parks, she spends 80% of the time loving on all the other humans there, totally ignoring the other dogs. She will zone in on anyone within a mile and want to meet them and get pets. So we obey leash laws. 

I do not like going to the park and seeing dogs off leash where they shouldn't be. I'm sure everyone here has total control of their dogs, but I've only ever met TWO off-leash dogs that listened to their owners. The rest have charged up to us (with Annabel or just walking with my husband). Most were friendly and just wanted to say hi, but some just jumped around us barking madly, and one GSD was showing terrifyingly aggressive body language while his owner screamed bloody murder in German. That was a deeply disturbing experience for both of us.

There are now three separate public parks we avoid because of off leash dogs. I just don't want to have to deal with that when I'm out trying to get some exercise or enjoy a nice hike. Maybe my area is just filled with an inordinate number of dog morons, though. Heh. I don't mind at ALL if your dog is under control and doesn't come near me unless invited, but that hasn't been my experience.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> The longer I work with Watson, the more I think that people who believe this have dogs who naturally orbit. I spent 9+ months with him off leash every single day on our property, and then one day he decided that hunting was way more fun than sticking with me and he was off. He's not a dog to run off forever, but he will absolutely run and sniff everything he can and hunt for things, including out of sight. Sometimes he's good off leash in classes, and sometimes he zooms around checking things out before he decides I might be more interesting.
> 
> Having a dog off leash all the time from a young age is no guarantee of having an adult who is decent off leash. Maybe he's better than he would've been if I hadn't laid that foundation, who knows. But I'm starting to think all of those techniques only produce great results for a dog who is naturally inclined to it already.
> 
> My friends' dog has a fantastic recall and can be trusted on off leash hikes. He came this way and they've never trained him or particularly worked on it. I've worked on it like crazy with Watson and I still don't totally trust him, though I do trust that he won't run and run and run forever (but I think that's his nature more than my training).



I think some of it really does depend on breed, and natural inclination, absolutely!

I just think you can screw that up in a dog who might naturally be inclined if they're never presented with the opportunity. I also think that teaching orbiting is a different skill set than just recall and that it takes a lot more work in some dogs than others. Kylie isn't a natural orbiter. There was a whole lot of practiced insecurity in her life from four weeks old and even now she's not as great about it as the others. But again: I definitely think some of it's down to dog. Kinda like socialization I guess. Nature plays a whole big role, and some dogs are harder to screw up than others, and you can really only work within the range genetics and temperament and individual give you, but you can impact it within that range.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

I never said it was a necessity. If I didn't have the option of this barely used trail in my neighbourhood than I would be finding a way to give Jewel enough exercise to keep her content. However, since I have this option and have an extremely high energy dog, it works well for me and it isn't at the expense of anyone else that I know of. If the dynamic of the neighbourhood/trail changes, I fully intend to leash Jewel in this area. As it stands now, it is working and I don't see any harm in it. To be clear, this is the only place I EVER allow her off leash where there is a leash law in place. Also, we veer so far off the "trail" that I'm not even clear if I am breaking the law. I don't think it's fair for people to call me rude when I am clearly trying to consider other people's opinions. I have asked everyone I've approached if they mind that my dog is off leash (I leash her when I see them to ask this) and they have stated that it's not an issue for them. Obviously, this doesn't mean that some people don't have an issue with it, but like I said, we are a small community and I'm sure someone would have gotten wind if we were offending the neighbours.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I think some of it really does depend on breed, and natural inclination, absolutely!
> 
> I just think you can screw that up in a dog who might naturally be inclined if they're never presented with the opportunity. I also think that teaching orbiting is a different skill set than just recall and that it takes a lot more work in some dogs than others. Kylie isn't a natural orbiter. There was a whole lot of practiced insecurity in her life from four weeks old and even now she's not as great about it as the others. But again: I definitely think some of it's down to dog. Kinda like socialization I guess. Nature plays a whole big role, and some dogs are harder to screw up than others, and you can really only work within the range genetics and temperament and individual give you, but you can impact it within that range.


Agreed, it's something you can impact and work on and I'm still working like heck on it and hoping his reliability will come back a bit with age. I just get frustrated when people (not just here) say things like "If you just practice a lot off leash when they're young, it's not hard to teach them to orbit and be ok off leash." I'm convinced I did everything right with him and he was fantastic, and then he grew up and decided that he had independent goals that didn't match up with staying right next to me. I'm not the best trainer in the world, so I'm sure I could have done a better job of it, but it was something I focused on like crazy and he's still completely not trustworthy. He does orbit I guess, but his orbit can be 300ft which is not really practical or safe. And if he gets out of the house without a leash on, he's going to run around like an idiot for 5min before deciding to come back. Then I see my friends' dog with no training, who they brought home as an adolescent, and it's just so natural and easy for him. 

Temperament is such a huge factor. I spent a lot of time being really really disappointed that I did all of the right things and my dog wasn't reliable. Now I've realized that's just who he is and what he was bred to do, and I have to work with what I've got.

ETA: I see it kind of like resource guarding. I can say that I trained Watson not to guard things because I was very careful about trading with high value rewards, teaching a drop and leave it, etc. But honestly? He's just not a dog who is inclined to RG and I don't think anything I did really effected it. For someone whose dog does resource guard, it would be frustrating to hear me say "Well, if you just traded for high value rewards when he was a puppy, I'm sure he wouldn't RG." We influence dog behavior, some of us better than others, but I think a ton of stuff is up to the dog and these issues (RG, unreliable off leash) will crop up regardless if a dog is inclined to it, and then it up to us to figure out how to solve it.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> My friends' dog has a fantastic recall and can be trusted on off leash hikes. He came this way and they've never trained him or particularly worked on it. I've worked on it like crazy with Watson and I still don't totally trust him, though I do trust that he won't run and run and run forever (but I think that's his nature more than my training).


We got lucky with this. Jewel came like this. I reinforce it by treating her when she comes, but she naturally stays with me off leash. I'm guessing it's in her genes. She will chase a rabbit into the forest, but then come back to the trail. She also naturally won't approach people and/or dogs off leash if she doesn't know them. On leash is another story. She will wait until I either give her the ok or leash her up.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> The longer I work with Watson, the more I think that people who believe this have dogs who naturally orbit. I spent 9+ months with him off leash every single day on our property, and then one day he decided that hunting was way more fun than sticking with me and he was off. He's not a dog to run off forever, but he will absolutely run and sniff everything he can and hunt for things, including out of sight. Sometimes he's good off leash in classes, and sometimes he zooms around checking things out before he decides I might be more interesting.
> 
> Having a dog off leash all the time from a young age is no guarantee of having an adult who is decent off leash. Maybe he's better than he would've been if I hadn't laid that foundation, who knows. But I'm starting to think all of those techniques only produce great results for a dog who is naturally inclined to it already.
> 
> ...


I do think breed plays a role, yes. But I think exposure definitely helps. 

One story coming to mind is my dog's breeder. Her yard is not fenced. It's a few acres big, with a pond, bordered by woods. All her dogs run around there off leash and my dogs would too. At that point in time I was living at my dad's old house and he lacked a papillon-proof fence as well. However, she'd board other papillons from other breeders who have never had that freedom and they'd all try to bolt to the woods. Of course I guess you could argue it was the lines as my dogs were all related to hers and spent their first weeks at her house, but Mia is the same way and she's 100% not related and never had been to her house until she was almost 2 years old. And Trey (sheltie) naturally stuck with them too.

My dogs are very handler oriented, which is one thing I love about the breed. I do think that makes a big part of it. But I think Mia would be a very different dog if not given that freedom.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Agreed, it's something you can impact and work on and I'm still working like heck on it and hoping his reliability will come back a bit with age. I just get frustrated when people (not just here) say things like "If you just practice a lot off leash when they're young, it's not hard to teach them to orbit and be ok off leash." I'm convinced I did everything right with him and he was fantastic, and then he grew up and decided that he had independent goals that didn't match up with staying right next to me. I'm not the best trainer in the world, so I'm sure I could have done a better job of it, but it was something I focused on like crazy and he's still completely not trustworthy. He does orbit I guess, but his orbit can be 300ft which is not really practical or safe. And if he gets out of the house without a leash on, he's going to run around like an idiot for 5min before deciding to come back. Then I see my friends' dog with no training, who they brought home as an adolescent, and it's just so natural and easy for him.
> 
> Temperament is such a huge factor. I spent a lot of time being really really disappointed that I did all of the right things and my dog wasn't reliable. Now I've realized that's just who he is and what he was bred to do, and I have to work with what I've got.


I'll be the first one to admit that I did absolutely nothing except now I keep encouraging the behaviour, and also I am a new dog owner with little experience. This should be enough proof that a lot of it depends on the breed. Not to say that Jewel is perfect, she's a dog and a hunting dog so she's always running off to chase, however, she returns quickly and always knows where I am and is looking for my signals.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I do think breed plays a role, yes. But I think exposure definitely helps.


I do agree that it makes a difference in a dog not born to stay close, but I think the amount of success varies a lot by dog. Of course, if you never train it or work on it, you might ruin that natural inclination in a dog by never practicing that skill.

I think the reason *why* they are running away makes a huge difference too. If they're just running off because "whee! I'm free!" I think that's different from the dog who runs off thinking "Omg, I'm on a deer trail. This is amazing. Gotta find this deer." I think the reason for running a way factors into how easy or hard of a time the owner will have. I know that Watson's brain just shuts me out when he's hunting, and once he's done, he looks around for me and gets nervous if I'm not there (he was so freaked out the day he ran off after deer for 20min and then couldn't find me back at the house). Getting through that drive to hunt is really hard. He's also independent and I can see him thinking "Just a second mom! I need to check this out first!" I can honestly see now why some hunters use ecollars, because it's a way to break that focus.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I
> I think the reason *why* they are running away makes a huge difference too. If they're just running off because "whee! I'm free!" I think that's different from the dog who runs off thinking "Omg, I'm on a deer trail. This is amazing. Gotta find this deer." I think the reason for running a way factors into how easy or hard of a time the owner will have.


We had Kylie out with us today and Michael and I were talking about this. 

Kylie was TOTALLY of leash and-










This is what she did - sat at his feet and stared when we stopped walking.

I'm not going to pretend that this is all our training. It is some, sure.  She (and Thud) have both had periods where they'd dash off away from us, we'd turn around and walk away or hide and they would FREAK. OUT. I mean come at us like they'd been shot out of a canon, because us not being in sight or reach was NOT GOOD!!!! Kylie has prey drive. Thud has prey drive. Their strongest drive, though, is to be close to people. SO a few instances of 'take your eyes off us and we vanish' has resulted in dogs who really, really don't like us out of their easy line of sight and pay a ton of attention. Bug, Jack and Frost are like this, too, but I didn't train it and they came that way and they're not quite as observant and attentive. RT and BT are prone toward being velcro dogs, anyway.

But basically? The strongest drive in all five of mine is being handler oriented and a desire to at least be close. That's been applied and reenforced. We dont' have to compete with their noses, or other, conflicting, drives. We built the desire to pay attention and close, rather than artificially creating a desire to run being a huge self-rewarding thing. I'm working with drive - not trying to work against it. 

BIG difference, there. I'm 99% sure if I had the same dog you did, I'd have the same results you do.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

This is my opinion...

If you have a dog off leash where there is a leash law, I am not going to fret or worry or care, so long as it is under verbal control and well behaved under that control. 

I got out to local parks and nature areas frequently and take Recon or Frag off leash, even though there are leash laws. If we see another dog or human coming, I recall them and put them in a down or sit stay and make it evident I am waiting for them to pass and that my dog isn't going to move. I've trained for this. If they blew me off I would apologize greatly and they would stay on leash for all of eternity.

If I see a dog coming off leash and close to it's human or closely interacting and coming back frequently, I don't fret and continue our game. I watch out for dogs very far away from their owners or non-attentive humans. 

When dogs rush us, I put my dogs behind me in down stays if possible and body block/kick dogs away. Owners get angry. I remind them that the leash law is there for a reason and that just because their dog is friendly, doesn't mean that mine are. I frequently tell people mine aren't (and I have had dogs in these situations who really weren't) and that they are lucky I noticed their dog and stopped them from approaching or they'd have a seriously injured dog on their hands. Usually they appear to be understanding and realize I just saved their dog from potential doom. 

So basically, areas with idiots don't scare me. I scare them.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> This is my opinion...
> 
> If you have a dog off leash where there is a leash law, I am not going to fret or worry or care, so long as it is under verbal control and well behaved under that control.
> 
> ...


Yes! This! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm okay with breaking leash laws if you take responsibility for your dog and your dog listens well, doesn't pose a threat to traffic etcetera. 

I have Mike off leash next to a road. Dogs aren't supposed to be off leash there, but he listens excellently. I need only point and he'll go where I signal him towards. When I stop he comes running to me. I always keep an eye out for other bikers and people with dogs, and I'll call Mike to me and put him on leash. 

On the flip side I met a border collie today, who was off leash next to a road. Saw a cat, ran over the road, between traffic. Woman screamed and shouted, dog didn't respond. That's dangerous. 

So I'm not against it. Just be very careful, keep an eye out for trouble, and be sure your dog comes when called, especially with traffic around. 

When hiking, I'm absolutely okay with dogs off leash. As long as they don't take off after wildlife or bother other people and dogs, I don't see what the issue is.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

aiw said:


> Its a real shame IMO, that the only place its legal to let your dog offleash in this city are the kind of thunderdome parks you mentioned. Not a lot of options for urban folk. Convention goes a really long way too I think. The park where we go offleash is colloquially referred to as 'the dog park'; its known to be a place where offleash dogs congregate. Most of the city is streets, parks, and parkettes where leash laws are just good sense and almost always in practice. There are lots of places where dog reactive dogs can go with relative assurance animals will be leashed. Personally I don't think its a great hardship to have a few spaces where the expectation is reversed. There is a conflict of interest between people who want to make use of the offleash space and those who have reactive/aggressive dogs or don't like dogs at all. There is room to have dedicated spaces for both.
> 
> As most people have said, common sense is a good guide.


X2. Squared. We live(part time) in an urban center and there are (by convention as in the Dolores Park pics, and parts of the Presidio, which was way more dog friendly when it was an army base, BTW) dog off leash areas where I would know that the majority of the dogs will be loose for better or for worse (these are the parks in which Park and Recc have fenced off the children's playground b/c they know this to be the case)....and there are the areas where everyone knows is leash only and truly, really respects that.
(This in a city that is considering passing a new law, to require Naked people to put something down under their bottoms before sitting down on public benches...
Duh, I am sure that there is a code somewhere about Nudity, that is in the leash laws, is being enforced selectively-- there are parts smack in town that you will encounter some barenaked people....
Not that I care, nude people generally dont bother my dogs, and the nude beach-- Yes there is one in SF-- is fairly off the beaten track, and again another - by consensus, dogs off leash area...)....

Sorry to digress, I find the training discussions very interesting, cause this too I have felt,
dogs need to become habitated to on leash off leash and good recall....and Yes every dog is different....


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

For me it really depends on the area and the context. After hours, or during an very low-use time, if the dog is under good control, I say a bit of off leas time is a good thing. Depends on the dog too. 

I'm guilty of the odd off-leash walk with Caeda, NEVER Dexter, as predictable as he is generally, there's still some situations I haven't encountered and with him having his iffy moments with other male dogs, he stays leashed, at VERY least a strong flexi or a long line (flexi if I think I'll need to pull him in often because other people might be there) in any place a person might come up on us. His recall is phenomenal most of the time, he is a really obedient dog, but I have no illusions about him, I could see him being overcome at excitement at something and loosing his cool. 

Caeda, when she is in good form (which I admit, she isn't at the moment, I've been WAY too slack with her upkeep on this front) I can walk her all the way around the local trail, about 4-5km, off leash, with dogs, people, the odd animal (mostly squirrels) and have her under excellent control, walking at a heel or within 20 feet, depending on what is called for at the time. I keep a very keen eye open the odd times I've done this, if people or dogs coming, I put her in a loose formal heel, or if there is a tight corner I can't see around, I call her in close, then release her if nothing is around the corner. Granted, I do use an e collar (I guess in some sense it could be considered and electric leash too....but I don't use it that way!), which does give me a bit of distance control/insurance. This of course takes a TON of practice and upkeep, and even a week or two without a good walk like this and I get a little reluctant. No matter what, I keep a close watch on her body language to see if she is in a mood where she might be prone to be a little less attentive, the e collar may be there, but I try to set things up so it doesn't get used (and it very rarely does). 

One place I do let both dogs off leash is in our yard (they've had some pretty solid boundary training, and in the big huge empty field behind the house (not ours, but people tend to use it to cut through to the trails). I can see the dogs for a big distance there, and I can also see if anyone is coming long before they would notice (since they're either wrestling or sniffing, not watching for people). I also always let Caeda off for a swim. I tried having her on the line once and I had to wade in because she got her legs tangled and was obviously reluctant to move (luckily she was in the shallows). She knows the rules though at the swimming spots, and I intersperse with a lot of training there too plus she is generally is more interested in the water than people (and even dogs) walking by. 

On the other hand, part of me wants to rant and rave at anyone who breaks leash laws. Nothing bugs me more than seeing someone with an off leash dog that is off sniffing something and they're standing there going "Come, Come on, Come here, Lets go, get over here, now" which is often followed by a throwing up of the hands and continued walking with the expectation that their dog will come to them. When I see that I will take my dog (leashed or unleashed) off of the trail as far as I can to try to avoid that dog and those people. If their dog does something ignorant I don't want to be blamed by association because someone saw me talking to them, or their dog playing with mine. That may seem harsh, but I've seen it happen on the local trails many times. Some wingnut actually took pictures of everyone with their dogs at the "swim spot" because one of the people there didn't find it necessary to control her dog and it ran up to them (very friendly, just went up, sniffed and came back), the picture taker said she was going to report us all for (get this) harassment, because she should be able to walk with her kids without being harassed by all of those "animals". There is at least one person that walks there who carries a cattle prod and readies it every time he sees a dog, even if they are on leash. 

So yeah, I'm a bit of a hypocrite sometimes, I'll admit that, but I try to be intelligent about it, have I misjudged a couple times, yep. Has each time made me more careful, yep. Will I still do it again, albeit carefully, yep.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> This is my opinion...
> 
> If you have a dog off leash where there is a leash law, I am not going to fret or worry or care, so long as it is under verbal control and well behaved under that control.
> 
> ...


BOOM, truth bomb, lol. I am wary of off leash dogs in on leash areas, for sure, but if they don't bother me, I don't worry about it. And yeah, if somebody's off leash dog approaches me with my dogs, well, mine aren't friendly and I will kick, scream, and pepper spray as a last resort (most dogs zip out if you do a bluff kick and I have no desire to hurt anybody's dog, for the record). I would expect them to do the same if my dog charged theirs, honestly.

As for my own, if I see people approaching, I do the same and do a quick obedience demo. It reassures people and lets them know that the dog is under control and I'm not going to let it approach them. Keep the dog close and demonstrate excellent verbal control.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> This is my opinion...
> 
> If you have a dog off leash where there is a leash law, I am not going to fret or worry or care, so long as it is under verbal control and well behaved under that control.
> 
> ...


I think that if you are _regularly_ having to put your dogs in a stay and wait for people to pass, that it is a sign the area is too busy to have your dogs off-leash. You're asking every single one of those strangers to trust you and trust your dogs in an area where they shouldn't have to. 

And you know your dogs aren't friendly so while the chance of them breaking the down-stay may be slim, if they do, the results would likely be worse than usual if a friendly dog broke a down-stay.

This is the problem I have over and over in public parks. Someone asks their dog to stay and even though they have a leash on hand and there is a leash law, they don't leash their dog because their "dog won't break a stay". But I don't know if the dog will or not and then I (and anyone else) is stuck walking by trusting that we're not about to have a major dog fight or for those scared of dogs, that they won't be rushed by a dog. 
Sometimes the dog keeps the stay, sometimes the dog moves just enough to cause concern, and sometimes the dog breaks the stay and runs at us. 

I used to hike with a guy who had an ACD that he left off leash. The dog was obedient and an "orbiter" with little dashes into the woods and then back to circle the hiking group and herd us and was basically never out of sight and came when called. One day (in an on-leash park) around a bend in the trail with steps on a steep part, the dog was circling the group and around the bend came a couple people (generally a very very quiet park and quite rural). The woman was TERRIFIED of the dog. Like, full blown panic attack phobia reaction as the dog came out of nowhere and wasn't attached to anyone. The dog recalled fine, but the woman still had to go through her fear. She was slightly nervous as I walked by at as much distance as the trail allowed with Chester on a leash, but I held him close so I really do think the leash reassured her. 
The hike was plenty of exercise on-leash, it was _nice_ to have the ACD off-leash for fun but really wasn't worth ruining that woman's day in a place she shouldn't have had to stress about an off-leash dog.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

aiw said:


> My dog is relatively small and lower-energy. I don't agree that should mean he lives his whole life on a 6 foot line. Even lower energy dogs get massive benefit from offleash time. Although in your example I do agree that if there is a designated offleash area within such close walking distance its irresponsible to use a leashed area for that purpose. I wish there was a real offlead area in my neighbourhood. I don't have a car and out of consideration for other commuters I don't take Pete on transit at crowded times (anytime from 8-11 or 4 to 7) so we're really limited in what we can access.


Why do people always put words in my mouth? 

I never said that any dog should spend its entire life on a 6' leash, nor do I think that most dogs should have to spend their entire life on-leash. I was, however, implying that it is much easier to meet the exercise needs of a smaller, lower-energy dog, compared to the owner of say, a dog that was bred to GO!GO!GO!, and I feel like most owners take the advantage of off-leash time mostly for _physical exercise_ and maybe for the owner's own enjoyment; there is something absolutely amazing in observing the joy that some dogs experience when off-leash. Most owners who go off-leash in on-leash areas are doing it because they want to. There may be other, supplementary reasons, but without the owner wanting to take their dog off-leash in an on-leash area, whether for convenience, recreation, or both, the dog would not be off-leash in an on-leash area, and in most instances there are ways to meet the dog's needs (physical, mental, and social) without breaking the leash law. Sass mentioned quite a few, for instance!



> If your dog is walking 6 feet away, he could be on a 3 meter leash and be legal


This is not true in my area, and I suspect it is the same in others. Here the by-law specifically states that the LEASH must be no more than 2 meters (~6 feet) in length. So if your dog is on a 15 foot leash in an on-leash area, you're breaking the law even if you're carrying your dog (although I doubt they'd ticket you at that point). That means that flexi-leashes are illegal for public use here... but I guess by-law enforcement figures a crappy leash is better than no leash.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah I only walk where I might see another person once or maybe twice, and I recall dog to me and put my hand on her collar so everyone feels safe and secure and that my dog is control (you would be surprised how deserted some spots in the park are tucked away just a few blocks away from some very busy streets)...
the only issue I have had with this is that my previous dog a sweet boxer (but a dark brindle people were fearful of her) started to alarm bark when I would do this, she was certain that I was recalling her from certain danger....

PS Gingerkid, one of my roommates had a BF with a one year old Lab that had never been outside off leash- and I mean a 6ft leash. The dog literally spent its entire life either crated inside or walked outside (briefly) ON leash.... she had to promise the BF to NEVER take its leash off.... and it drove her nuts she eventually broke up with him....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Yeah I only walk where I might see another person once or maybe twice, and I recall dog to me and put my hand on her collar so everyone feels safe and secure and that my dog is control (you would be surprised how deserted some spots in the park are tucked away just a few blocks away from some very busy streets)...
> the only issue I have had with this is that my previous dog a sweet boxer (but a dark brindle people were fearful of her) started to alarm bark when I would do this, she was certain that I was recalling her from certain danger....


I walked Bae on leash once in a fantastic hiking area near my house. Someone thought they would be cool and was walking their dog off leash despite signage. We had to walk past them on the narrow trail. Let me tell you, just having your hand on your dog doesn't make me feel any safer.  Please actually leash your dog if someone walks into your area of the park or at least grab a hold of your dog's collar firmly.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

gingerkid said:


> This is not true in my area, and I suspect it is the same in others. Here the by-law specifically states that the LEASH must be no more than 2 meters (~6 feet) in length.


Since they said a 3 meter leash was the law in their area and that their dog kept 6 feet away, I was just pointing out that the dog was well within the range of a legal leash anyway so why not use one?

Some places specify a length of leash, some just say "leashed", some say "under physical control" which can be interpreted to include e-collars, and some places just say "under control" or "leashed or under verbal control" and there can also be variations where the property owner (for public access areas) can say what is allowed. So for example, a private university might require leashes even if the town doesn't or vice versa.

I'm all about just letting people know what they are getting into. Off leash areas are great, on leash areas are great, but surprises in the form of random loose dogs are not.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> The longer I work with Watson, the more I think that people who believe this have dogs who naturally orbit. I spent 9+ months with him off leash every single day on our property, and then one day he decided that hunting was way more fun than sticking with me and he was off. He's not a dog to run off forever, but he will absolutely run and sniff everything he can and hunt for things, including out of sight. Sometimes he's good off leash in classes, and sometimes he zooms around checking things out before he decides I might be more interesting.
> 
> Having a dog off leash all the time from a young age is no guarantee of having an adult who is decent off leash. Maybe he's better than he would've been if I hadn't laid that foundation, who knows. But I'm starting to think all of those techniques only produce great results for a dog who is naturally inclined to it already.
> 
> ...


Watson sounds like Jubel to me. I didn't get him until he was 2 so I have no clue how he was raised though. He isn't horrible off leash but he does roam far. I only rarely let him off leash in unfenced areas. He doesn't run away for the joy of running, if he really ends up far away it's because he's following his nose or chasing a critter. 

Over the spring/summer this year we took a handful of hikes with a meet up group in the forest trails. I let Jubel off leash for these hikes. Overall he did really well, roamed out of sight often but checked back in and was listening for me. If he was out of sight when a trail split I'd call to him and he'd usually pop back insight pretty quickly and I'd indicate to him which way we were going. That would often trigger him to race over to that trail ahead of us. He'd play a bit with one of the other dogs but mostly just explore the woods and race around like a mad man. On the last hike we took we ran into a man with a GSD on leash who was very upset to see us with off leash dogs. To my delight Jubel did listen very well when I told him to sit and stayed put until I could get to him and leash him up. 

I also visited an unfenced dog park with Hamandeggs and her dog Biscuit. Again Jubel did okay but still wandered further than I'd like and doesn't really recall just checks in wondering what I want but not truly recalling TO me. His wandering was getting too close to the picnic area for my comfort so I ended up leashing him midway into our visit. To do so I actually trapped him against the creek. The water was deep enough there he didn't want to go through it and couldn't get around me, he did not voluntarily come to be leashed up. I do strongly believe he would have followed me back to the car and hopped right in though, he very much so doesn't want to be left behind. I've actually NEVER had an issue getting him to come in fenced dog parks when it's time to leave. A simply "Jubes, let's go" as I walk to the gate and he comes running. That doesn't work nearly as well the rare occasions he's off leash outside a fenced area. If we are with other dogs he is much more inclined to stay close with the other dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> Since they said a 3 meter leash was the law in their area and that their dog kept 6 feet away, I was just pointing out that the dog was well within the range of a legal leash anyway so why not use one?
> 
> Some places specify a length of leash, some just say "leashed", some say "under physical control" which can be interpreted to include e-collars, and some places just say "under control" or "leashed or under verbal control" and there can also be variations where the property owner (for public access areas) can say what is allowed. So for example, a private university might require leashes even if the town doesn't or vice versa.
> 
> I'm all about just letting people know what they are getting into. Off leash areas are great, on leash areas are great, but surprises in the form of random loose dogs are not.



And to be clear, I think you need to keep dogs on leashes if there's even kind of a reasonable chance you might run into someone/surprise someone, and ideally you should follow the law period.

That said, a lot of the reason I stress off leash with my dogs is I have dogs to hike - in sometimes awfully rough terrain. They are leash trained. They are within 6 feet of me without permission. I can not climb the side of a mountain holding four leashes, and the tangling and falling risks there is not minor. I'd rather let the dog's find their own path AND me not go down if Thud goes, or take them all down if I do. There's more to a leash than sticking close. You're basically connected to the dog. That's awesome in most situations, but it... doesn't really allow the same manouverability as off leash.

(Also agree with Ginger: The real benefit is to owners. I make no qualms about this. My dogs benefit, HECK YES, but I'm pretty sure if I didn't have access to areas without leash laws (more of them than with), I would find an alternative like private property (have done - and it's weirdly easy to get permission for that here), dog day care, or renting a training facility. Make friends with people with fences. Whatever.)


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

I haven't read all of the replies, but this is what I think on the subject. 

My personal dogs are just fine getting exercised on leash/dragging long lines, or playing with each other/other dogs in fenced in areas (not dog parks except if they are empty and it's just my guys there). I would NEVER trust them off leash mainly due to breed no matter HOW much I've worked them. We also don't have anywhere around that is nothing but woods/fields for acres and acres so the threat of them running in to traffic after game is always present. Now while they are on long lines, I do take them places like local open fields/soccer fields, but we are playing together or training - it's not time for them to sniff or even play with each other. If someone comes by, I put them in a down or sit and do not release until they have passed and are out of sight. Not only do I put them in that position but I go up to them and will grab the lead so the other person knows that I do have control. I have not had this happen very often at all. 

I personally walk my dogs mostly at night or during normal work hours because neighbors around here seem to think that having their dogs off leash on their front lawns is OK when their dogs will cross roads to either come yell at mine or try to say hi. It's obnoxious for me and for my dogs to have that happen, not to mention cars trying to pass down the road. I have no issues if the dog doesn't leave their lawn/yard, as mine don't care if they are being barked at (though I would rather just turn around if I notice the dog before I get there), but to have a dog rush me across a street in a neighborhood is not cool. This has happened way more frequently than my having to sit/down my dogs while on long lines.

If I encounter an off leash dog in a park setting and see no sign of a long lead/can't tell if the dog is under voice control, I will turn and walk the other way. Kimma was super reactive as a puppy so I have learned to be really observant of my surroundings while walking. It stinks sometimes, but it is what it is. I would much rather turn around and not take a risk than have one of my dogs get injured. To be honest, my life hasn't been altered too terribly by others not having control of off leash dogs (with the exception of my neighborhood, and even so I note which houses do this and avoid them if possible). I suppose I'm lucky, but I can totally see people getting annoyed if they were constantly being bothered by such events occurring on a regular basis.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Shell said:


> Since they said a 3 meter leash was the law in their area and that their dog kept 6 feet away, I was just pointing out that the dog was well within the range of a legal leash anyway so why not use one?


I must've missed that part. Sorry!

*


Shell said:



Off leash areas are great, on leash areas are great, but surprises in the form of random loose dogs are not.

Click to expand...

*YES. I wish there was a "like" button.


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## andi42 (Dec 3, 2013)

I usually walk my parent's terrier off leash in quiet areas. She has a great recall and I trust her completely to come to me. If she sees people or other dogs, she runs back to me to get her leash on. She is very timid of other dogs and become aggressive if they come too close...
Recently, near me, a horrific accident happened. A lady was out walking her pit bull (on leash) in a leashed area. A man was walking his pug (off leash). The pug ran up to the pit pull, and for whatever reason, the (apparently) normally friendly pit bull snapped at the pug. Both owners tried to separate the dogs but couldn't. The man pulled a knife and stabbed the pit bull, who ended up dying. It has made me think twice about having my dog off leash... I would hate for something like that to happen  It's the other dogs I worry about...


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

As a person who has her dog off leash constantly and will continue doing so... I am all for making the penalties stricter for owners with out-of-control off leash dogs. 

Here's an idea: In on-leash designated areas, have the owner pay hefty fines to the park AND to the offended person if his/her dog hurts another dog, scares and hurts a person, trips a runner, etc. Suspend those people from those areas in addition if the incident is serious enough. In an incident between an offleash dog and an onleash one, have the owner of the off leash dog be responsible for ALL costs of damage that might occur. 
It might put more power in the hands of those who really just don't like off leash dogs, and I am okay with that. You might think, "Gosh, you mean I could get in trouble simply if my super friendly dog went up and sniffed a person, because that person can claim she was allergic and had a reaction when clearly my super well trained dog only went up to her for a second?" Well, yes. What would this leave? Truly only the owners of dogs who can reliably keep their off leash animals *out of the way* of everyone else, or, inevitably, people who are willing to risk the consequences.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Canyx said:


> Truly only the owners of dogs who can reliably keep their off leash animals *out of the way* of everyone else, or, inevitably, people who are willing to risk the consequences.


You make a lot of reasonable points but.... (I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate for a moment here)--- you can't get blood from a stone. Maybe it is because I live in a lower income neighborhood but many people are simply unlikely to have the insurance to pay for a serious injury to a human (from breaking up a dog fight, from a fall etc, not necessarily from a direct dog bite) so wanting to take responsibility doesn't always equal being able to take responsibility. It can still cause a lot of problems for the injured party even if medical bills are paid (lost wages, losing a job by not showing up for work) and that money can't fix a dead dog. 

Unfortunately, breed bias comes into play here. An off-leash dog of a "friendly" breed that gets into a fight with an on-leash dog of a "scary" breed all too often equals the "scary" dog being at fault somehow. Even if it is just the damage done in the media. The more that can be prevented by having on-leash areas be truly on-leash, the better. I grant you that on-leash dogs can cause problems too, but it is very rare IME to be rushed by a dog that has a leash attached to him.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Good points Shell. And you definitely know more about law related stuff than I do. I always enjoy your posts!

In response, I completely agree with what you say about low income people but at the same time I think if the risk of them losing so much more (ie, a stricter penalty), when they already don't have a lot to give... One would think that the threat of penalty would cause more owners to keep their dogs on leash. I agree that at the end of the day, some things such as seeing your dog injured is not able to be compensated by any amount. But there will always be "dead dogs" and I imagine this might make the chances smaller at least. 
I know that currently breed bias affects a lot of things, but I think if it is made the case that off leash dog owners essentially have no power... Let's say a friendly off-leash Lab was killed by an aggressive on-leash pitbull. Sad situation no matter how you spin it. But if the bias is already there then at least let the pit owner not have to deal with any physical consequences.

ETA: Basically, I agree that the simplest and most logical thing is for people to keep their dogs on leash. But that is all in theory and if in-practice people want to be rushed by fewer off leash dogs, some laws need to be changed.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Canyx said:


> Here's an idea: In on-leash designated areas, have the owner pay hefty fines to the park AND to the offended person if his/her dog hurts another dog, scares and hurts a person, trips a runner, etc.


All of the money in the world won't bring my little dogs back if a loose dog kills them.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

ok here is some of the areas I let my dogs off

this is a small island that is part of the walking path in the middle of the city, I rarely encounter anyone use these islands, most people use the paths to "get" somewhere, and these islands take them on a detour


















this is a small "beach" not 5 feet from a major walkway, I call it a dog beach because I encounter other people using it for the same thing all the time... no person would use it, dogs or no dogs, its actually illegal for people to swim in that creek and the sand is covered in goose poo lol 


















my city is FULL of parks and green spaces, at least 10 within a short walk from me, I rarely use most of them because of rabbits, a couple of my dogs will chase down a rabbit and not call off(2 out of 6 wont, then rest will), I have seen rabbits at most of these but NEVER at 1 a few blocks from my house, been going for years never once seen a rabbit in it, it is in the middle of the neighbourhood, surrounded by streets and not fenced, it has a kids playground and a baseball diamond, if the park is populated I just keep walking, but if not I let them off to run, if people show up I leave..unless they show up because they want to play with my dogs, that happens all the time lol 


















there is no insensitivity, I know reactive dogs, I HAVE reactive dogs, when I walk all 6 together running into a loose dog pisses me off, because my dogs go nuts and they drag me down, tie themselves and me up in knots going ballistic. I GET IT, but if the dogs are off leash but under control and by that I mean NEVER allowed to approach anyone without express permission, then more power to you/them.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Canyx said:


> I know that currently breed bias affects a lot of things, but I think if it is made the case that off leash dog owners essentially have no power... Let's say a friendly off-leash Lab was killed by an aggressive on-leash pitbull. Sad situation no matter how you spin it. But if the bias is already there then at least let the pit owner not have to deal with any physical consequences.


The off-leash owners already are at fault in on-leash areas in general. 

While _generally_ the on-leash dog (in an on-leash area) is not going to be held liable for biting another dog, that isn't always the case especially to the responding police, in the lower courts and that all important court of public opinion. Fighting a court ruling of a dangerous dog up to a higher court can be time consuming and expensive and in the interim, the dog that was actually the victim can be stuck in an AC kennel or barred from leaving the owner's property etc. 
If that on-leash dog redirects and bites a human accidentally that it never would have bitten out of actual aggression or should the human not have stuck his hand in the dog's mouth, then too often all bets are off. The media reports a pit bull/rottie/GSD attacking a human and the dog is quarantined and bad things can happen. 

(I am not a lawyer, not legal advice...)


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> I walked Bae on leash once in a fantastic hiking area near my house. Someone thought they would be cool and was walking their dog off leash despite signage. We had to walk past them on the narrow trail. Let me tell you, just having your hand on your dog doesn't make me feel any safer.  Please actually leash your dog if someone walks into your area of the park or at least grab a hold of your dog's collar firmly.


Yes I grab the collar firmly in hand. This however sends signals to my dog that YOU are not to be trusted, whatever.....

Really, my risk is that I may be RAPED.... but whatever..... just so everyone else feels safe....
(there were no Police in evidence when the guy jumped out of the bushes at me and my dog)....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Yes I grab the collar firmly in hand. This however sends signals to my dog that YOU are not to be trusted, whatever.....
> 
> Really, my risk is that I may be RAPED.... but whatever..... just so everyone else feels safe....
> (there were no Police in evidence when the guy jumped out of the bushes at me and my dog)....


Sorry, I believe in your original post you said "put my hand on her collar so everyone feels safe and secure". Which basically meant to me that you weren't holding on, just touching it.

I probably would not walk where you walk if there is a risk of being raped or assaulted. Dog or no dog. Leash or no leash.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Shell said:


> The off-leash owners already are at fault in on-leash areas in general.
> 
> While _generally_ the on-leash dog (in an on-leash area) is not going to be held liable for biting another dog, that isn't always the case especially to the responding police, in the lower courts and that all important court of public opinion. Fighting a court ruling of a dangerous dog up to a higher court can be time consuming and expensive and in the interim, the dog that was actually the victim can be stuck in an AC kennel or barred from leaving the owner's property etc.
> If that on-leash dog redirects and bites a human accidentally that it never would have bitten out of actual aggression or should the human not have stuck his hand in the dog's mouth, then too often all bets are off. The media reports a pit bull/rottie/GSD attacking a human and the dog is quarantined and bad things can happen.
> ...


Leashes are not complete assurances to safety. 
6blocks from my apartment a pair of dogs KILLED SOMEONE on leash.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> I probably would not walk where you walk if there is a risk of being raped or assaulted. Dog or no dog. Leash or no leash.


Well sadly that can happen anywhere.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Well sadly that can happen anywhere.


I'd say the chances of me being raped walking around in my neighborhood are significantly lower than if I were walking in a place like Berner has been describing (hobos and junkies in the bushes, remote, etc.). Yes, rape can happen anywhere, but the chances of it occurring where I walk are much, much less, I'm will to bet.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Sorry, I believe in your original post you said "put my hand on her collar so everyone feels safe and secure". Which basically meant to me that you weren't holding on, just touching it.
> 
> I probably would not walk where you walk if there is a risk of being raped or assaulted. Dog or no dog. Leash or no leash.



Sadly our hospital parking lot is considered "the rape lot"... risks are part of my life, at least I have my dog to keep me company.
And remote spots are fairly peaceful-- most of us out there just want to be left ALONE....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Sadly our hospital parking lot is considered "the rape lot"... risks are part of my life, at least I have my dog to keep me company.
> And remote spots are fairly peaceful-- most of us out there just want to be left ALONE....


Eek. I guess I'm lucky that crime around my area is mostly nonexistent.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

BernerMax said:


> Leashes are not complete assurances to safety.
> 6blocks from my apartment a pair of dogs KILLED SOMEONE on leash.


There isn't much at all that is a complete assurance of safety. But there is a whole lot that is likely to reduce problems and increase safety. 
For the majority of dog owners, keeping the dog leashed provides safety for them and for other dogs and people. 

A person can still die in a car crash even with seat belt and air bags but that doesn't mean that a seat belt and air bags aren't worth having. 

I know that anecdotes are not data, but I've had one single case of being rushed by leashed dogs (it was raining, dogs lunged, owner slipped, dogs attacked and did minor damage before we separated them) and maybe a dozen+ cases of being rushed by off-leash dogs in legally on-leashed areas. That doesn't count the ones where I asked the owner to leash the dog before I approached where the dog may or may not have obeyed off leash.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Eek. I guess I'm lucky that crime around my area is mostly nonexistent.


Be careful out there. The assault actually happened at 10am on a really popular section of the park (busy) I would have never guessed it... 
I am sort of fatalistic and believe when your card is called, you deal and make it.... or Dont....
(one of my patients was checking the mail when she was raped, really)....

the average homeless person or junkie is not interested in you, or if they are, you are in waaaay better shape then they are....
It really is an (in my case, urban) Jungle out there....


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Be careful out there. The assault actually happened at 10am on a really popular section of the park (busy) I would have never guessed it...
> I am sort of fatalistic and believe when your card is called, you deal and make it.... or Dont....
> (one of my patients was checking the mail when she was raped, really)....
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying. My neighborhood is terrible. I had a guy running from the cops hop my fence and hide in my shed. This is one reason why I have a GSD. I know from precious experiences he will not tolerate people touching me if I am upset or grabbing on me. I keep him on leash, someone grabs me, I let go of the leash and they have a big problem on their hands with big teeth. I have worried a bit more since I have had to muzzle Eko, though, because of his DA and people refusing to listen to me when I tell them to keep their dogs away as well as off leash dogs.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I get what you are saying. My neighborhood is terrible. I had a guy running from the cops hop my fence and hide in my shed. This is one reason why I have a GSD. I know from precious experiences he will not tolerate people touching me if I am upset or grabbing on me. I keep him on leash, someone grabs me, I let go of the leash and they have a big problem on their hands with big teeth. I have worried a bit more since I have had to muzzle Eko, though, because of his DA and people refusing to listen to me when I tell them to keep their dogs away as well as off leash dogs.


Bae Dog was a great deterrent. Big, mostly black, pointy ears, always leashed. Must be a wulf! I highly doubt that Bae would have actually "protected" me aside from barking and growling but you know, sometimes the bark is enough to scare people away. Not that I was ever creepily approached. Like I mentioned, not much crime to speak of here*. Merlin isn't scary in the least. Small, tri-color, smiling dog doesn't scare anyone.

*I'm cautious anyhow.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Bae Dog was a great deterrent. Big, mostly black, pointy ears, always leashed. Must be a wulf! I highly doubt that Bae would have actually "protected" me aside from barking and growling but you know, sometimes the bark is enough to scare people away. Not that I was ever creepily approached. Like I mentioned, not much crime to speak of here*. Merlin isn't scary in the least. Small, tri-color, smiling dog doesn't scare anyone.
> 
> *I'm cautious anyhow.


You would be surprised though, my small brown dog on leash was not apparantly much of a deterrent either, but when it counted she grabbed hold of a pants leg and held on- long enough for me to get away anyways....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> You would be surprised though, my small brown dog on leash was not apparantly much of a deterrent either, but when it counted she grabbed hold of a pants leg and held on- long enough for me to get away anyways....


Aw. Dogs come through when we most need them, don't they?


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Aw. Dogs come through when we most need them, don't they?


 Yup! Priceless.....


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

d_ray said:


> I never said it was a necessity. If I didn't have the option of this barely used trail in my neighbourhood than I would be finding a way to give Jewel enough exercise to keep her content. However, since I have this option and have an extremely high energy dog, it works well for me and it isn't at the expense of anyone else that I know of. If the dynamic of the neighbourhood/trail changes, I fully intend to leash Jewel in this area. As it stands now, it is working and I don't see any harm in it. To be clear, this is the only place I EVER allow her off leash where there is a leash law in place. Also, we veer so far off the "trail" that I'm not even clear if I am breaking the law. I don't think it's fair for people to call me rude when I am clearly trying to consider other people's opinions. I have asked everyone I've approached if they mind that my dog is off leash (I leash her when I see them to ask this) and they have stated that it's not an issue for them. Obviously, this doesn't mean that some people don't have an issue with it, but like I said, we are a small community and I'm sure someone would have gotten wind if we were offending the neighbours.


What some of you aren't realizing, is that those people who would walk their leashed dog in certain areas, may avoid them because they have seen off leash dogs in that area. There are places here, along the river where I would LOVE to walk my dogs, but I won't, because people bring their off leash dogs there. And there is a leash law.

The other thing is that EVERY time I've had a loose dog run up to my dogs and fight, the owners have all been yelling "He's Friendly!" And then they all say "I can't believe he did that!"
I had the owner of 2 German Sheps that chased me and my 3 dogs up to my house, tell me "Why would I use a leash? They're TRAINED!" So I asked her, why they just chased me and my dogs up to my house? Did she tell them to chase me?
That happened at 10:30 at night, when I was walking mine late, to avoid any people getting home from work, and letting their dogs in the front yard. It's scary to have 2 large dogs chasing you at night.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

I hate seeing off leash dogs because one of my dogs is not good with other dogs. He is also large, strong and could seriously hurt an off leash dog that wanders up to him. It seems like we encounter them whether we are walking the suburban streets of our neighborhood, in the state and local local parks, on trails, etc. It's really frustrating and I have called or emailed complaints to Animal Control a number of times. I would encourage others to do the same.

That said, I do understand why many people like to let their dogs off the leash in parks....it's really fun! What I would like to see is compromise. Parks could clearly designate through the use of signage, certain hours of the day as off-leash time (at own risk) and the rest of the time enforce the on-leash rule. At least if there is a sign up, I know what hours of the day I should avoid that particular park. And it gives the off-leash crowd a place to let their dogs run.

If you click on this link and scroll down to the Nov 16th blog post, there is a good entry about off-leashing.
http://notesfromadogwalker.com/


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## VickytheRobot (May 24, 2012)

I have Pit Bull type dogs. I avoid anywhere that I have seen people with off leash dogs. The law requires that the dogs be leashed everywhere outside of designated off leash areas, and my dogs are always leashed. My dogs have excellent recall; I can call them off of other dogs, cats, or people. I'm confident in our recall, but I sure as heck don't expect anybody else to be confident in our recall. And what if I'm wrong? My dogs pay the price. What if you're wrong about your off leash dog? My dogs will still pay the price. I can't take that risk.

I know that the people in the park with their off leash dogs believe that there is no harm in what they're doing. I don't take it personally, it's not malicious. It still sucks, though. It would be nice to have the option to run through the park.

I seriously doubt that people would be okay with me not following leash laws.

One of the benefits of leashed exercise is that it gets me out on a run as well, instead of just the dogs, so at the very least the situation has gotten me in shape. Trust me, I need it!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> PS Gingerkid, one of my roommates had a BF with a one year old Lab that had never been outside off leash- and I mean a 6ft leash. The dog literally spent its entire life either crated inside or walked outside (briefly) ON leash.... she had to promise the BF to NEVER take its leash off.... and it drove her nuts she eventually broke up with him....


I just saw this. That poor dog... did he have any specific reason for it? I mean, I probably would go nuts to, unless it was for a specific reason. I do know some dogs that should not ever be off leash: one is just a complete asshole who goes around challenging every single dog he sees because HE'S THE BOSS (and is also close to 100 lbs). He doesn't do anything until he comes across another domineering male, but not a good candidate to be off-leash regardless of training because it would only take once and he can do too much damage. I also know a husky mix that escaped twice from the shelter on pee-breaks (including once on a harness and double leash), was transferred to another rescue agency and has since escaped from her foster home twice. All within ~5-6 weeks, while surrounded by experienced dog care-takers. For her, maybe that will change someday if she bonds with someone close enough, but even if I adopted her, I don't think I could risk it.

Also... check it out Ma, 10-ish pages and no drama! When does that ever happen?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, but none of us talking about the benefits of off leash training were that person? In fact I specifically said that sort of thing was horrifically irresponsible and repeatedly said that no one else should have to be impacted by that, because of risks to other people and animals and their comfort and safety, in the first post about the subject.


Well then, I wasn't talking about you was I?


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

Another thing that bothers me about off leash dogs is that I know from experience, that it's very doable to provide great exercise a for a dog in open areas through the use of long lines and flexi-leashes. It's not as simple as just unclipping a leash or opening the front door, but it's really not very difficult either. 

I have a good sized fenced yard, but when I really want to tire him out and show him a good time, we go to one of the athletic fields at a nearby school or park with a long line and some favorite toys. He has all the fun of off-leash and I can easily keep the end of that 50 foot rope at my feet or even looped around my wrist so we always have the security of the leash. I use a brightly colored long line and harness so that anyone approaching from a distance can see that he's on a line and isn't just free to approach them. 

I know lots of people hate flexi-leashes, but coupled with a body harness, used properly and in the right places, they can also provide something very close to the off-leash experience for the dog. It's probably overkill, but I use one that is rated for twice the actual weight of my dog, just for added peace of mind. Also, its just good form to immediately reel the dog in to your side and lock the leash when you see someone approaching, before they get close enough to become concerned about it. Thanks to many irresponsible flexi-users, people will expect that your dog will be completely out of your control as soon as they spot that reel. I like to take the opportunity to demonstrate that they can be used well.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Basically this thread has reinforced to me once again the powerful ability of the human mind to rationalize and justify, lol.


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## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

By us there are a lot of parks that have leash laws, but we tend to let our dogs off leash. The second we hear or see other people or dogs coming, we call them back, and leash them back up and wait until the people aren't even in sight anymore. Though there are leash laws, people seem to follow the same code of conduct at most of the parks around here. If people see other people getting out of the cars and such, the dogs are automatically recalled and leashed back up as to not allow for any problems. Somewhat of an unwritten rule.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Yes, but what everyone seems to be glossing over is that _other people_ might not feel safe seeing your dogs off leash even if _you_ feel you and your dog are safe.
> 
> Sure, it seems like no big deal until you're terrified of dogs, or until you know the anxiety of worrying about an off leash dog approach your on-leash, dog reactive dog. Again, I'm not talking about big tracts of lightly populated open space. I'm talking about multi-used and heavily used areas. I live in a metro area with a lot of well maintained green space, and it's a shame when other people feel like they have to curtail their activity in those public spaces because a few people just "know" their dog is fine.


Yes, this. I have run into aggressive off-leash dogs multiple times (and yeah, I know the difference between a dog running at us in play or out of curiosity, and a dog that wants to eat mine). In one of the situations, I had to grab the large black lab (mix) and hold it with its front feet off the ground while it snarled and lunged at my dogs. Another time, a loose Weimaraner ran to halfway between my dogs and his owners and stood and stared at my dogs, tense as can be, while his panicked owners kept trying to call him back (he ignored them, of course; he was fixated on my dogs). When they managed to slowly approach and grab him, the girl sighed, "That was close." Another time, two little Boston mixes ran up to Casper and jumped on him, and when he got offended and snapped at them, their big Boxer friend got angry and snarled/lunged at Casper -- luckily, his owner grabbed him in time. Just the other day, a bulldog came tearing out of its yard and into the street after us and only backed off when I yelled loudly and angrily at it -- but then it started approaching again, and only its owner hearing my yell and coming outside stopped it from running at us again (it was also fixated on my dogs like they were prey). There are more incidents than this, but this paragraph is getting long enough.

Every single one of these incidents happened on busy city streets or in busy public parks, places with leash laws. Incidents like this reset every bit of progress we make in getting my dogs to be calm around other dogs. They make my dogs hate loose dogs. They make Crystal start growling at dogs she sees a block away. And because of these incidents, now every single loose dog I see makes me tense up. It makes my dogs tense up. And it pisses me off.

I don't mind if people have loose dogs out in woods or fields in the middle of nowhere. But if I'm in a public park with posted signs saying that leashes are required, or if I'm walking down city streets, I should have the expectation that I won't be rushed by dogs that could kill mine. There are ways to exercise your dog that don't involve Thunderdome-style parks or breaking leash laws. I've been doing those things for my entire dog-owning history. Long walks, long lines, fenced ball fields, fenced friends' yards. I lived in a studio apartment for a year and had zero problems with exercising my dogs. I'm tired of reading excuses and rationalizations for people breaking the law and ruining my walks.


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## missPenny (Oct 2, 2012)

Off-leash dogs are the reason I have to walk my own after 9 pm, when everyone else is in doors. We have had too many encounters in our neighborhood with dogs who free rome and charge at us. Thankfully Penny is small enough to pick up in these situations, but it's very frustrating and quite frankly, isn't fair. Leash your dog if it's the law in your area. 

I also do not let her off leash off my property. Not a good enough re-call and I just don't trust other dog owners anymore... there have been too many 'Oh he/she is friendly!' incidents and I just don't want to take the chance anymore.


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## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Yes, this. I have run into aggressive off-leash dogs multiple times (and yeah, I know the difference between a dog running at us in play or out of curiosity, and a dog that wants to eat mine). In one of the situations, I had to grab the large black lab (mix) and hold it with its front feet off the ground while it snarled and lunged at my dogs. Another time, a loose Weimaraner ran to halfway between my dogs and his owners and stood and stared at my dogs, tense as can be, while his panicked owners kept trying to call him back (he ignored them, of course; he was fixated on my dogs). When they managed to slowly approach and grab him, the girl sighed, "That was close." Another time, two little Boston mixes ran up to Casper and jumped on him, and when he got offended and snapped at them, their big Boxer friend got angry and snarled/lunged at Casper -- luckily, his owner grabbed him in time. Just the other day, a bulldog came tearing out of its yard and into the street after us and only backed off when I yelled loudly and angrily at it -- but then it started approaching again, and only its owner hearing my yell and coming outside stopped it from running at us again (it was also fixated on my dogs like they were prey). There are more incidents than this, but this paragraph is getting long enough.
> 
> Every single one of these incidents happened on busy city streets or in busy public parks, places with leash laws. Incidents like this reset every bit of progress we make in getting my dogs to be calm around other dogs. They make my dogs hate loose dogs. They make Crystal start growling at dogs she sees a block away. And because of these incidents, now every single loose dog I see makes me tense up. It makes my dogs tense up. And it pisses me off.
> 
> I don't mind if people have loose dogs out in woods or fields in the middle of nowhere. But if I'm in a public park with posted signs saying that leashes are required, or if I'm walking down city streets, I should have the expectation that I won't be rushed by dogs that could kill mine. There are ways to exercise your dog that don't involve Thunderdome-style parks or breaking leash laws. I've been doing those things for my entire dog-owning history. Long walks, long lines, fenced ball fields, fenced friends' yards. I lived in a studio apartment for a year and had zero problems with exercising my dogs. I'm tired of reading excuses and rationalizations for people breaking the law and ruining my walks.


See this is why I think in my area people don't seem to care too much. The areas where our dogs are let off leash are huge parks that are essentially forests with miles of trails (for example loop we take Cosmo on near daily is about 7-9 miles depending on the route), so where our dogs are let off leash, you may encounter a person once every hour or so, and Cosmo, the SECOND we either hear a dog or see a dog (that goes for people too), he is immediately leashed up. And when those people are passing we sit off to the side and wait. 

Now would I ever do that on city streets or paths or such? Absolutely not. Whether it be with Cosmo, or Koko, or any dog for that matter. No matter how good a dog's recall is I would never trust a dog offleash in populated areas such as that. Not only for the safety of my dog, but because who knows if that dog we are approaching is DA.

That and I don't want someone who is afraid of dogs to be put in an uncomfortable situation. As much as ours dogs like to think, that park is NOT a dog park, its a park where people like to go relax, so it is in no way shape or form appropriate for me to be ruining there time at the park.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Shell said:


> That's the point of a long leash. If the space is wide open to play fetch and such, then a 35-50 foot leash or horse lunge line gives about as much running room as most people can throw a ball anyway. For trails or slightly smaller (but still not crowded) areas, a 15 foot leash gives even a big dog meandering and sniffing room. Not only does a long line give physical control of the dog should voice control fail, but it allows other people to SEE that the dog is under control and not just HOPE that the dog is obedient.


I do have a 20 foot lead but that's not nearly enough room to run in, as you say just enough to sniff and move a bit in. Sniffing is done just as easily on the 6 foot on a walk. I also have a 75' lead but the park has lots of bikers that move through. A long lead is actually very dangerous for both dog and people in that situation. While we were proofing recall though we did use the long line exclusively.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I don't know how this is the same? There's someone who walks their lab, well, all over peoples yards and driveways in the neighborhood and that drives me nuts too.
> 
> We use public soccer parks with huge, unused greenspace. Most of the time it's completely empty of people and dogs. And when it's populated, we tuck out of the way and do close obedience work. We've had numerous people make positive comments. Absolutely no one, in the three years we've been going, multiple times per week, has made a negative comment, called AC/police, or asked us to leash. If there are folks bothered by what we do, the way we do it, they're in the very small minority and staying completely silent.


This has been my experience as well. Personally, my general rule for dog conduct is that if the only people upset by it are on the internet... well, I'll certainly consider the viewpoint carefully but I'll use my own best judgement about the conclusion. If complaints or difficulties are raised by people involved - well that would change things pretty dramatically. As it stands though, I think each of us individually is in the best position to judge our own situations. I find most people here generally responsible and considerate.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> I just saw this. That poor dog... did he have any specific reason for it? I mean, I probably would go nuts to, unless it was for a specific reason.


I have no idea, the dog was pretty bored and would shred all its dog beds... my roommate said that was his main pasttime... Dog only got 2 cups dry daily because the owner was afraid of it getting "Fat"... as well... he must have had some issues....
I guess it was better than being than a laboratory specimen.... but still....

I like the discussions around compromise ( I really like the off hours off leash option, not sure why SF doesnt have that option.... I guess Golden gate park is pretty huge and not enough complaints? They just leave the leash laws on the books so they can penalize you additionally if your dog does something? Not sure....)
Training discussions....etc... its interesting to hear peoples thinking on this...


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

One more thought - if leash laws were passed by the consumers who actually used the parks (say at least once a month and not all the stay at home armchair voters)-- I think you would get more accurate laws...
On the flexi leash thing... my dog got soooo tangled at the OFF leash beach- the pic in my Avatar actually-- by a yorkie on like a 20 ft flexi (with all these large dogs running loose having a ball) -- that was so fine it was invisible ... the line was black and my dog has long black fur.... it was terrible she started to panic....we had to cut her loose. Thank God... she and the yorkie were ok, but it could have been really bad...


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I think the ideal system would allow for both groups to coexist. Space with leash laws and space without and people can choose for themselves between them. This is the de-facto situation in my neighbourhood with 'the dog park' and all the others with leash laws - maybe it would be better if it was official. I don't think its crazy to have space dedicated to offleash dogs, even if it means some people need to avoid the park. I really don't like children - doesn't mean the city needs to outlaw kids soccer leagues, I just avoid the fields and playgrounds while in use. Its not a hardship, just a reality of living in a city with such density.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Shell said:


> I think that if you are _regularly_ having to put your dogs in a stay and wait for people to pass, that it is a sign the area is too busy to have your dogs off-leash. You're asking every single one of those strangers to trust you and trust your dogs in an area where they shouldn't have to.
> 
> And you know your dogs aren't friendly so while the chance of them breaking the down-stay may be slim, if they do, the results would likely be worse than usual if a friendly dog broke a down-stay.
> 
> ...


Why do you think it's a sign that they shouldn't be off leash? Obviously the laws say they shouldn't, but if they're listening and not bothering anyone, why does it matter? Recon and I both enjoyed letting him run with his Boxer friend off leash at the local nature preserve over the weekend, even though we had to call them back to us every 50 yards because of other people or dogs. All people I've met have appreciated the obedience and focus and none have ever raised any concerns to me. When my dog turns on a dime when he sees them coming and rushes back to front position to stare into my soul, they all appear to be just as sure as I am that he isn't going to move or *notice* them walking by. Sometimes I do clip a leash up as we pass someone with a reactive dog. I do want them to feel comfortable and I don't want a dog's reaction to change my dog's mind. But I've never been faced with concerned people- many people smile and nod, some people comment on how well behaved they are, some ask to meet them or ask what else they know. None ever look alarmed or have anything negative to say, even those with reactive dogs. I can't say I've EVER been out with a dog and seen another owner with a dog off leash but under control break a command. The people who are training and working with their dog and expecting something of them, around here anyway, don't have dogs that break stays or heels or anything else to be a nuisance. 

That said, I did not say that my dogs weren't friendly. I said that I tell people who have dogs that rush mine (on leash) that they are not and could potential harm their dog severely, as this has been the case before. Luckily, the dog was small enough that I could pick up and put in a headlock. Or I would have been dealing with a dog fight on my own with a dog I didn't know. I would never take the risk to let a dog aggressive dog off leash anywhere but a private fenced yard with no other dogs. They get exercised on long lines as a rule. Which is still breaking the leash law, but is keeping everyone safe. 


aiw said:


> This has been my experience as well. Personally, my general rule for dog conduct is that if the only people upset by it are on the internet... well, I'll certainly consider the viewpoint carefully but I'll use my own best judgement about the conclusion. If complaints or difficulties are raised by people involved - well that would change things pretty dramatically. As it stands though, I think each of us individually is in the best position to judge our own situations. I find most people here generally responsible and considerate.


I COMPLETELY agree. Until I meet someone that has a valid concern with what I'm doing, I have no real reason not to.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Why do you think it's a sign that they shouldn't be off leash? Obviously the laws say they shouldn't, but if they're listening and not bothering anyone, why does it matter? Recon and I both enjoyed letting him run with his Boxer friend off leash at the local nature preserve over the weekend, even though we had to call them back to us every 50 yards because of other people or dogs. All people I've met have appreciated the obedience and focus and none have ever raised any concerns to me.


It is a sign because every 50 yards, you're meeting someone who has the right to expect leashed dogs and not have to encounter unleashed dogs regardless of how obedient those dogs are.
The more people and dogs, the more chances of something going sideways. Let's say there is a 1 in 500 chance (99.8% perfect recall) that your dog's recall will fail. Being 99.8% perfect sounds pretty good right? If you are in a very quiet park where you may see 1 or 2 people on a given day, your 1 in 500 chance would mean a very very low actual chance of something happening over many walks. But if you are running into other people/dogs every 50 yards, that's dozens probably on an average walk which means that 1 in 500 chance isn't so low anymore. 
Like driving a car-- more miles driven means more chances of an accident basically.

Maybe the people appreciate the obedience, or maybe they're just polite enough not to raise their concerns or maybe they are avoiding confrontation because nowadays you never know what will anger someone to violence or create a problem. I've overheard enough people say something about an off-leash dog _after_ the dog and owner are out of ear shot to tell me that a lot of people just don't want to make a fuss.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

A couple days ago I met my friends and their new puppy. Before that they went to Tractor Supply to pick up food. I frequent Tractor Supply quite often and they thought I was training Service Dogs until I told them that I am involved in SAR but they need certain skills and obedience that are comparable to Service Dogs.

Anyhow. I do put the dog I have with me in a sit or down and leave them in a spot so I can go through the Jackets. Etc. Etc. Etc... the entire staff knows every single one of my dogs. Once we leave the store, I let them walk next to me off leash. They go straight to the car.

The day my friends went there with their new 8 week old Mali Puppy they were told that they have to get together with me because they are so well trained and they described the dogs to them. 
My friends were like "Sandra! Yes, we know her."

As long as people have a positive impression of my dogs I will continue what I do. Seeing well trained dogs on and off leash promotes not only the breed but has a positive impact on the Community!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Until I meet someone that has a valid concern with what I'm doing, I have no real reason not to.


Like meet someone in person? I've told several people in person that they need to leash up their dogs, regardless of their obedience status. It makes me uncomfortable to have dogs romping about the park next to kids on swing sets and other leashed dogs. And you know what? Even when I met that person on the trails, where there are less people, I was uncomfortable walking my dog past their dog because he was off leash in an on leash zone. I don't know how obedient your dogs really are. If I was scared of dogs, I can only imagine the fear it would strike in me to see a dog, no matter how obedient, off leash.

My childhood friends were scared of dogs. Terrified. For apparently no reason, they had never been bitten or growled at or run over. They were really, really scared though. For a very long time, they couldn't come over to my house because they were so afraid of Pepper, even when he was on leash or in a different room. From what I understand of people with a fear of dogs, this is not unusual. People who are so scared of dogs like this, will actively avoid parks where dogs are known to be off leash. They may pay taxes for these parks and they may enjoy these parks but the dogs are so scary that they do not use these parks. They have every right to be there but they are too scared to go and/or complain to you in person.

A valid concern is that... it's the law? Why are your dogs excused from the law? Because they are so obedient? Recall is only 100% until it fails. Dogs are not robots. I do not want your (being the general your) dogs breaking their stay "that one time" and coming at my dog. Or me.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

MaDeuce said:


> A couple days ago I met my friends and their new puppy. Before that they went to Tractor Supply to pick up food. I frequent Tractor Supply quite often and they thought I was training Service Dogs until I told them that I am involved in SAR but they need certain skills and obedience that are comparable to Service Dogs.
> 
> Anyhow. I do put the dog I have with me in a sit or down and leave them in a spot so I can go through the Jackets. Etc. Etc. Etc... the entire staff knows every single one of my dogs. Once we leave the store, I let them walk next to me off leash. They go straight to the car.
> 
> ...


This sums up my thoughts perfectly. I do the same when I go to the local pet store for training- and the employees there all know me and love the dogs because of what we do. They are frequently dragging leashes and left in aisles in down stays while employees walk past, etc and they love "helping out" as distractions.  

I got the "are you training a service dog?" question for the third time there last week. I wish!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just wanted to say that I agree people who are bothered by it will probably just not go to that area to walk (with dogs or otherwise). 

There are a couple of local parks we frequent for walks and if we regularly encountered loose dogs rushing us (my bf has been bitten several times so unfamiliar dogs running at him puts him on alert) we just wouldn't go to that park anymore. I expect most people would do the same thing, not write complaints and continue to go or continue to go and get mad at everyone with off leash dogs and lecture them about it. As it is, at the park with off leash dogs allowed in certain areas we've never had a problem. Often the dogs that do approach us are mildly interested at best.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet (I don't think so anyway) is that if someone has a fear of dogs or perceives your dog as a threat (incorrectly reading dog body language or being unfamiliar with it) your dog could be at risk. I know if a dog rushed us and my bf perceived it as a serious threat he would not hesitate to do what he felt he had to do to protect us. He's been chased down and bitten by dogs on the street before, so he is not unfamiliar with having to defend himself if necessary. No amount of "Oh, it's okay he's friendly!" would deter him if the dog's actions were saying otherwise. Once bitten twice shy, as it were. Similarly, if someone had a phobia they could react without thinking and again, put your dog in danger.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> This sums up my thoughts perfectly. I do the same when I go to the local pet store for training- and the employees there all know me and love the dogs because of what we do. They are frequently dragging leashes and left in aisles in down stays while employees walk past, etc and they love "helping out" as distractions.
> 
> I got the "are you training a service dog?" question for the third time there last week. I wish!


Noooo... Don't do this! As someone who worked in a Pet Store, we all hated it.  You are on property where the store owner asks you to keep your dogs on leash. I was that grouchy store employee who had to crack down on everyone's "fun" because I made people leash up and walk their dogs about the store properly. I've had customers say that they are uncomfortable with big dogs being left in down-stays or sit-stays with the owner no where in sight. Yeah the dog might be staying but suddenly that aisle is uncomfortable for some customers to walk down.

I get that you are training but it's store policy that dogs stay on leash. That doesn't mean that you leave your leashed dog in a down-stay at the front counter or in an aisle whilst you shop, either. Often times employees won't say anything because they don't want to lose customers. But we also had dog fights break out where someone thought their off leash dog would be ok in a down until that one dog came in and BAM! Dog fight at the front counter.

This is just coming from a former pet store employee. I loved when people would bring their dogs in but really, please keep them leashed. I don't know how well trained your dogs really are and you are asking me to trust your training. It's not ok. It worried me every. single. time.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've had people run screaming after my dogs and I turn the corner while walking them on a leash several times. Seriously. My dogs are like 8 lbs a piece and walk perfectly by my side without a glance at anyone else. I understand people have fears of dogs and its irrational but you're never going to be able to accommodate everyone. I've had 3 or 4 kids get really uncomfortable with my dogs walking (on leash), a couple of them screamed and ran away. I've also had a 20 some odd male scream when Mia was a puppy and on a leash and decided to pounce at him. 

I think I am MUCH more unlikely to run into a random dog phobic person out in the woods or field. We seriously never get any closer than a few hundred feet to other dogs or people. 

My dogs are both reactive and unfriendly so I get it. I do. I just can't be annoyed by people walking dogs off leash that are in control. The old man who has a border collie that trails behind him off leash across town? Meh. The schnauzer hanging out with the kids at the city park? Meh. I get way more annoyed when it's nice outside and I have to deal with all the idiot leashed dogs that are dragging their owners all over the place. 

I think people are going to do what they're going to do. I know my area and my dogs and how/when to avoid people. I personally feel like the benefits FAR outweigh the risks for us.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I understand people have fears of dogs and its irrational but you're never going to be able to accommodate everyone.


Yeah. . .lots of people have random phobias and you just can't make sure everybody feels comfortable all the time. If someone is scared of kids, are they going to throw a fit when someone brings their kids to the park because, dang it, they have a right to use the park without feeling uncomfortable? Some people are scared of bicycles. Sporting equipment (weapons!). Pretty much anything you can think of, someone has a phobia. And I kind of think that if someone has a phobia of dogs and avoids the park because of it, they'll probably avoid the park even if the dogs are on leash because phobias are like that.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

aiw said:


> I think the ideal system would allow for both groups to coexist. Space with leash laws and space without and people can choose for themselves between them. This is the de-facto situation in my neighbourhood with 'the dog park' and all the others with leash laws - maybe it would be better if it was official. I don't think its crazy to have space dedicated to offleash dogs, even if it means some people need to avoid the park. I really don't like children - doesn't mean the city needs to outlaw kids soccer leagues, I just avoid the fields and playgrounds while in use. Its not a hardship, just a reality of living in a city with such density.


I don't think anyone is saying that there should not be space dedicated for off-leash dogs... the issue being constantly raised is that are not in those designated off-leash areas should remain on-leash for the safety and consideration of others. I haven't seen _anyone _say that off-leash areas should not exist.

I really think it is a difference of what to expect. If you go to an off-leash area, expect off-leash dogs. If I am in an on-leash area, with a leash by-law... I have every right to expect any dogs we encounter to be on-leash. Just like if I go into a park that doesn't allow dogs at all, I have the right to expect there  won't be any dogs in that park. Just like if if I'm going through an intersection with a traffic light, and I have a green light and you have a red one, I have the right to expect that you will stop and not just blow right through the light.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Yeah. . .lots of people have random phobias and you just can't make sure everybody feels comfortable all the time. If someone is scared of kids, are they going to throw a fit when someone brings their kids to the park because, dang it, they have a right to use the park without feeling uncomfortable? Some people are scared of bicycles. Sporting equipment (weapons!). Pretty much anything you can think of, someone has a phobia. And I kind of think that if someone has a phobia of dogs and avoids the park because of it, they'll probably avoid the park even if the dogs are on leash because phobias are like that.


It isn't just full blown dog phobias, it is just people that may feel slightly nervous around loose dogs that they don't know the owners of (or how well trained the dog is), bicyclists that worry about the dog darting in the front of them after a squirrel, people with small children who could be knocked over, older people that worry about getting run into by even just an overly friendly dog etc. 

Bring kids to the park isn't the same thing. If the location says "NO CHILDREN" and someone brings children, then yes, other patrons have the right to be upset. People don't expect a posted "on leash only" park to be free of dogs. They expect it to be free of loose dogs.



RabbleFox said:


> Noooo... Don't do this! As someone who worked in a Pet Store, we all hated it.  You are on property where the store owner asks you to keep your dogs on leash.


Yeah, unless the _property owner_, not the store manager, not the employees but the actual property owner gives the "OK" for doing that sort of training with a dog in a stay away from you etc, then don't. If I owned a pet store and had a leash policy (which I sure would because I'd hate to even think of what my liability insurance bill would be like without a leash policy.... if anyone would even insure the store), I'd fire any employee letting someone have their dog off leash (off-leash including dragging a leash) during open hours of the store. Because I'd be protecting my store and my assets by requiring as much risk mitigation is possible and I wouldn't want my butt being sued when that "well trained" off-leash dog hurts someone. Yes, leashed dogs can get into fights. Yes, leashed dogs can injure someone by tripping them or whatever. The point for the property owner is to make reasonable efforts to keep the property safe.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

I have a friend who was walking his 20 lb, adorable Doxie/Rat terrier thing (leashed) when a lady came up behind him while they were waiting at a cross walk, shrieked, backed away, and clutched her chest panting, and started babbling, "I'm scared of dogs, I'm really scared of dogs, I'm scared of dogs..." She actually expected him to, I dunno, leave? So she could stand at the cross walk. He just said, "Ok, well I'll keep his leash short." And she said, "No, you don't understand, I'm so scared of dogs... I'm scared of dogs..." LOL He was like, "yeah, um, ok, well, we'll be crossing as soon as the light changes so... I don't know what else to do for you." lol


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There are off leash areas but no way no how am I taking my dogs to them. Way too dangerous for them to go to the fenced in style dog parks where everyone expects their dogs to play with each other.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> There are off leash areas but no way no how am I taking my dogs to them. Way too dangerous for them to go to the fenced in style dog parks where everyone expects their dogs to play with each other.


Our park has off leash and on leash trails within the same park. Off leash being okay doesn't have to equal thunder dome.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> There are off leash areas but no way no how am I taking my dogs to them. Way too dangerous for them to go to the fenced in style dog parks where everyone expects their dogs to play with each other.


So petition your local government to make one of the local parks/trails off-leash.

Am I the only one who lives in a city with off-leash parks that aren't thunderdome-style?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

ireth0 said:


> Our park has off leash and on leash trails within the same park. Off leash being okay doesn't have to equal thunder dome.


Those aren't available everywhere though. Your choices here are either 1) no off leash at all 2) fenced in dog park full of dogs playing 3) break leash laws.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> So petition your local government to make one of the local parks/trails off-leash.
> 
> Am I the only one who lives in a city with off-leash parks that aren't thunderdome-style?


Nope!

I mentioned in a post earlier that our main city park has off leash and on leash areas designated for different trails. There are just signs warning you when you're crossing from one into another, but it's all trails through forest and such, no big open thunder dome areas.
Since we don't have a dog currently we don't pay much attention to which trails are which (never had a problem with a poorly behaved off leash dog to date), but I'm sure the people that bring dogs there frequently are familiar with the different ones.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Those aren't available everywhere though. Your choices here are either 1) no off leash at all 2) fenced in dog park full of dogs playing 3) break leash laws.


You're forgetting 4) Petition local government for a change. Write a letter to your councilor (or alderman or whatever), get a petition together, put together a solid argument for why a large, treed and trailed park should be off-leash.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> just people that may feel slightly nervous around loose dogs that they don't know the owners of (or how well trained the dog is), bicyclists that worry about the dog darting in the front of them after a squirrel, people with small children who could be knocked over, older people that worry about getting run into by even just an overly friendly dog etc.


I'm not saying that dogs should be allowed to rampage through the park and jump on people. But if a dog is just as well-behaved off leash as on, I don't see why the owner should put a leash on the dog just to make other people feel more comfortable. I think it would be like asking the mother of a well-behaved child to hold her kid's hand all the time because I've been kicked by random loose little kids before.

If I couldn't just go out into the middle of nowhere to let my dogs run, I really would have no legal options. People do use the baseball fields to let their dogs run around in the off season, and nobody seems to mind, but I'm pretty sure it's technically not allowed. Not that there are any good parks around that aren't state parks anyway . And state parks require dogs to be on a leash no longer than 10 feet.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

gingerkid said:


> You're forgetting 4) Petition local government for a change. Write a letter to your councilor (or alderman or whatever), get a petition together, put together a solid argument for why a large, treed and trailed park should be off-leash.


Honestly, I probably wouldn't use such a park anyways so I wouldn't petition for one. My dogs are very small and unfriendly towards other dogs so we avoid areas where people are with their dogs off leash and go to areas that are usually empty and that you can see all the way around you. Other people use the fields too in the same way but it is so easy to avoid people and other dogs because you can see every direction. If that park existed, I'd probably still be using the fields and breaking the leash law. Probably makes me a horrible person.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Luckily TSC employees are happy to see my dogs and no one ever has complained. In fact, all I get is compliments. And we NEED to be able to take them out in stores, public etc. 

If you can't train in these places, where else do you expose dogs to certain stimuli?

If I go to a demo, into a school class, etc. I need to be able to trust my dog that she won't break the downstay and that she will stay engaged and focused!

I have Tractor Supply, Ganders Mountain and Petco at my disposal where I know I can take them.

She has also been allowed in Autozone, while we had to wait two hours for the Car Battery to charge and she was settled on the floor. The dogs are always allowed in Midas, on the porch of an Italian Restaurant while we had dinner when a tire blew and the car was repaired across the street. 

Because of all that training that so many seem to dread the dogs are so well behaved and I can take all of them together into a store and they will immediately settle.

Training IS necessary. If we don't train we end up with those type of dogs all of you nay-sayers fear.

What you say, doesn't matter. In this area, a lot of people know my dogs. I know for a fact that some people fear them and I accept and respect that fear and made adjustments to make sure there are no encounters.
But I also know that the majority loves my dogs because of what they do and who they are and how well behaved they are in public places.

Banning dogs from places, only keeping them on leash, not giving people a chance and place to train dogs does not solve the issues we have with dogs in society. It makes them worse!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I'm not saying that dogs should be allowed to rampage through the park and jump on people. But if a dog is just as well-behaved off leash as on, I don't see why the owner should put a leash on the dog just to make other people feel more comfortable. I think it would be like asking the mother of a well-behaved child to hold her kid's hand all the time because I've been kicked by random loose little kids before.


Because when you live in a city, you make accommodations to others. I'm not talking about wilderness or quiet hiking trails. I'm talking about large urban parks that are clearly posted "Dogs must be on leash" with a variety of uses and users that ALL have to be considerate of each other. 

Frizbee golfers pause their games for horses to pass by, mountain bikers and hikers have to share the paths, some roads are closed to cars at different times to allow pedestrians full use of them even though that means an inconvenience to drivers (but are open other times to provide access to people of all physical abilities) etc.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I have no problem with people bringing their dogs places. As a matter of fact, I wish more places would allow well behaved, leashed dogs. I also wish that there were more off leash trails and such. As it is, I wouldn't take my dog off leash in a clearly posted on leash zone. Michigan actually has an over reaching state law that demands dogs be leashed unless otherwise posted. 

It's just not nice and not safe to leave your dog in a down stay up front where I (the employee) feel like I have to watch him. Maybe he is obedient enough that I don't have to but I don't really know. And when other people see you trundling around with your off leash dogs, they suddenly think it's a free for all! Which is not safe, against policy, and puts my job at risk if I don't say something. 

Maybe it's just the bad obedient dogs spoiling it for the rest of you but I've had quite a few bad off leash dog experiences in stores and in urban parks. It doesn't bother me nearly as much out in the country or way out in the wild.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Shell said:


> Because when you live in a city, you make accommodations to others. I'm not talking about wilderness or quiet hiking trails. I'm talking about large urban parks that are clearly posted "Dogs must be on leash" with a variety of uses and users that ALL have to be considerate of each other.
> 
> Frizbee golfers pause their games for horses to pass by, mountain bikers and hikers have to share the paths, some roads are closed to cars at different times to allow pedestrians full use of them even though that means an inconvenience to drivers (but are open other times to provide access to people of all physical abilities) etc.


We have one of those parks too. Even the City Council that voted to ban dogs from Public places admitted to take their dogs on off leash walks in a park that is clearly marked as on leash park... it is the only place I no longer take my dogs to train or walk.
Its too much traffic. To many people. That is why I go to the Meadows close to my house because they aren't used. 

Same on Post. There are three dog parks on post. Its half an hour drive to get there. One park is highly frequented while the other isn't. 



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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

MaDeuce said:


> Luckily TSC employees are happy to see my dogs and no one ever has complained. In fact, all I get is compliments. And we NEED to be able to take them out in stores, public etc.
> 
> If you can't train in these places, where else do you expose dogs to certain stimuli?
> 
> ...


Having permission from the business is different though than taking it upon oneself to ignore the leash law in a publicly owned space. If a property owner wants to allow you to train your dogs, that's great and useful to you and it is their choice. If a property owner wants to specifically allow SAR or service dogs in training to train off-leash, sure. If a private property owner wants to allow all dogs off leash or ban dogs completely, it is their choice.

But public parks are paid for by all the taxpayers and should be optimized to be used by everyone as best as possible. Designating times for off-leash use can be a great way to balance the desires of a variety of park users. Just like some trails can be designated for mountain biking but not horse riding or roads can be open to cars sometimes and closed other times. 

My dog is always on a leash in stores when open to the public, on sidewalks, at public gatherings or events, etc and he is trained just fine and can lay on the ground while I eat a meal at a busy festival or stand by my side while I shop for books. The vast majority of dog owners do not NEED to have their dogs off leash in public just to train them so they don't "end up with those type of dogs all of you nay-sayers fear." as you say. I know dozens of dogs that are leashed in public spaces as required that are well trained and non-disruptive.

EDIT TO ADD:
In case it isn't clear, I'm not at all against off leash areas. I think off leash hiking and open areas (not just "thunderdome" style parks although I do at least know one fenced park that at 16 acres is not too crowded) should be an option for people who want to run their dogs off leash. I'm also all for a property owner making their own choice for off-leash or not. I loved taking my dog to the farm and letting him run the horse pastures with the farm dogs, but that was with the clear permission of the property owner. 
I've also been to countries with no leash laws except maybe in a major city or two and that was just fine by me because that status was clear to everyone and no one had the expectation that a dog would be on-leash, only that the dog was under control.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I feel like I've taken crazy pills today. No, we can't accommodate every person's phobia in this world, but in an area that _already has_ leash laws, someone who is afraid of dogs has a reasonable expectation of not encountering off leash dogs. You are not "accommodating" anyone or making any special dispensation in that case by following the law. They have every right to expect that your dog will be on leash. 

It's a total strawman to say "well what if I was afraid of children, they're in public!" because we have no existing laws that would give you a reasonable expectation not to encounter children in public. By all means campaign to get one passed if you feel that strongly, but off leash laws that already exist, already exist. And saying stuff like "I'm not hurting anyone" or "well no one really complains to me" isn't really a strong argument, I don't think. You ARE hurting people with anxieties, phobias, or reactive dogs, you just don't know it and they just aren't complaining to you... Most people aren't going to complain to your face especially if you have a large dog beside you. 

I mean, we all rationalize things that we want to do that technically we aren't allowed to do (including me). But really it's just that we want to do the stuff that we want to do, not that we truly have a justification to do so or that opposing concerns aren't important or valid. This whole thread is actually a really fascinating exercise of human nature, I love it.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> As it is, I wouldn't take my dog off leash in a clearly posted on leash zone. Michigan actually has an over reaching state law that demands dogs be leashed unless otherwise posted.
> 
> Maybe it's just the bad obedient dogs spoiling it for the rest of you but I've had quite a few bad off leash dog experiences in stores and in urban parks. It doesn't bother me nearly as much out in the country or way out in the wild.


Hey I just thought of something(you guys are up early.... well I got up at 6am then went back to bed for awhile have a long day- til 3am... ahead of me)....
But anyways... yeah where I go in the park.... There are no posted signs...Whatsoever....
Its not like I am flaunting a Leash dog sign every time I walk.... but I do think its one of those leashed til otherwise indicated situation (all 48 acres of it)...
I havent had bad experiences in stores, and my only bad experiences in urban parks with unleashed dog parks, is in the dirt patch off leash fenced "dog area"...
(in fact one is known to be an unofficial ring for owners to bring their dogs for a "match")...

That said, plenty of country folks get pretty incensced (sp?) around the loose dogs issue.. but the common response seems to be "reach for your rifle"....(livestock or no it seems to be shoot on sight)....

I wouldnt trust my dogs in an unfenced yard though, or left in a down stay, that is not the kind of training they have had.... although I have seen a dog sitting patiently outside a grocery store, waiting....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Just because it's not posted doesn't mean it's not there!

Michigan leash law: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ky...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-287-262

It shall be unlawful for any person...or for any owner to allow any dog, except working dogs such as leader dogs, guard dogs, farm dogs, hunting dogs, and other such dogs, when accompanied by their owner or his authorized agent, while actively engaged in activities for which such dogs are trained, to stray unless held properly in leash.

Only working dogs who are actively working (AKA just because your dog is a SAR dog doesn't mean he can be off leash, he must be actively searching for someone to be legally off leash) are allowed off leash in all of the state of Michigan. Unless otherwise posted.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Shell said:


> Maybe the people appreciate the obedience, or maybe they're just polite enough not to raise their concerns or maybe they are avoiding confrontation because nowadays you never know what will anger someone to violence or create a problem. I've overheard enough people say something about an off-leash dog _after_ the dog and owner are out of ear shot to tell me that a lot of people just don't want to make a fuss.


Yep. Any time I've said something to the person with the loose dog, they've been rude back. Those people with the weim I mentioned earlier? That dog was fixated on mine. Those people KNEW that he would hurt them if he decided to stop staring and run at them. They had fear in their voices as they tried to cajole him back; they had to sneak up on him and grab him before he could bolt. "That was close," the girl said as they passed me, with the dog leashed and lunging, almost pulling the guy over in an attempt to get to my dogs. So as they passed, I said, in a polite and informative tone, "This is a leashed trail, you know." The girl wouldn't even turn to look at me; she just called back over her shoulder in a snotty tone, ""Well, our dog's on a leash now, so it's fine." Totally didn't care that a few seconds earlier, she was afraid he'd attack mine. I bet they had that dog off-leash again the next day.

At this point I don't even care if the dog has good recall. If I'm in a busy-ish area (I'm not talking the middle of the woods where you can expect to meet two people in an hour), I hate off-leash dogs. I hate them, and I resent their selfish owners.

(Also, a while back, in one of the local dog FB groups I'm in, someone posted a rant about off-leash dogs, and the thread got TONS of responses. Way more people than you probably imagine hate seeing off-leash dogs in areas with leash laws. Some of those people lived next to huge, gorgeous parks that they could never use because of off-leash dogs. Some had reactive dogs that they were afraid would hurt a loose dog that rushed them. Some had resorted to walking very late at night just to minimize the risk of loose dogs. People who are breaking the laws just don't realize how many people they're affecting.)


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Sass is right...this is a fascinating thread. I have a breed that people will freak out if they see off leash....so being a responsible Rottweiler owner, I obey leash laws (with one exception I'll explain in a moment) when not on my property. I do have a half acre fenced in back yard where the guys get ample exercise and free running time. 

Lars is allowed off leash at the empty beach when it is off season to retrieve bumpers in the water. I do that so he can get some distance swimming in and I really fling the bumpers out. If anyone is within sight, he goes on his flexi and goes back to retrieving at shorter distances. If the beach is busy with people, he is on his flexi. Ocean is never off the flexi at the beach...busy or not. 

I am firmly in the camp that I don't ever want to give someone a reason to dislike my dogs...and being off leash in public is a good way to get someone to dislike my rotties.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Yeah. . .lots of people have random phobias and you just can't make sure everybody feels comfortable all the time. If someone is scared of kids, are they going to throw a fit when someone brings their kids to the park because, dang it, they have a right to use the park without feeling uncomfortable? Some people are scared of bicycles. Sporting equipment (weapons!). Pretty much anything you can think of, someone has a phobia. And I kind of think that if someone has a phobia of dogs and avoids the park because of it, they'll probably avoid the park even if the dogs are on leash because phobias are like that.


x2. we had to cover our garden with netting for 6months b/c downstairs neighbors girlfriend had a phobia of OUR cat possibly digging in the garden soil (no it wasnt a health issue)-- despite the fact it was a backyard joind by about 5 others with numerous cats roaming about. The entire building finally took her to arbritation over it. Just a silly situation. 
I have every reason to have a phobia of certain men between the ages of late 30s to early 40's -- maybe I should insist they be banned from parks after dark because of what happened to me?
Nah, its life.... of course not...
And I agree with what Laurelin said to, plus, its the leashed dogs that leave the giant poopys right on the path!
(No self respecting loose dog poops on the path they go off somewhere and do their business- I do pick mine up guys - not advocating not pooper scooping!)....especially the joggers with leashed dogs, then you get a trail of poopies on the path!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

BernerMax said:


> I have every reason to have a phobia of certain men between the ages of late 30s to early 40's -- maybe I should insist they be banned from parks after dark because of what happened to me?
> Nah, its life.... of course not...


Like sass explained earlier, this is a bad argument. There are no laws against men walking in public after dark. There ARE laws about leashing your dog. It's not "just life" to expect to run into people breaking the law multiple times during the course of a walk... or at least it shouldn't be.

("Leashed dogs leave poop on the path and loose dogs don't" is also ridiculous. Owners should be picking up poop. That's a separate issue from leashed vs. unleashed.)


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> And I agree with what Laurelin said to, plus, its the leashed dogs that leave the giant poopys right on the path!
> (No self respecting loose dog poops on the path they go off somewhere and do their business- I do pick mine up guys - not advocating not pooper scooping!)....especially the joggers with leashed dogs, then you get a trail of poopies on the path!


OMG this has me in stiches at work. All I can picture is someone jogging with their dog spitting out giant popcorn poopies all over the trail.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Just because it's not posted doesn't mean it's not there!
> 
> Michigan leash law: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ky...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-287-262
> 
> ...


So tell me, how do you TRAIN a SAR dog if you can't take them off leash?


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> Why do you think it's a sign that they shouldn't be off leash? Obviously the laws say they shouldn't, but if they're listening and not bothering anyone, why does it matter? Recon and I both enjoyed letting him run with his Boxer friend off leash at the local nature preserve over the weekend, even though we had to call them back to us every 50 yards because of other people or dogs. All people I've met have appreciated the obedience and focus and none have ever raised any concerns to me. When my dog turns on a dime when he sees them coming and rushes back to front position to stare into my soul, they all appear to be just as sure as I am that he isn't going to move or *notice* them walking by. Sometimes I do clip a leash up as we pass someone with a reactive dog. I do want them to feel comfortable and I don't want a dog's reaction to change my dog's mind. But I've never been faced with concerned people- many people smile and nod, some people comment on how well behaved they are, some ask to meet them or ask what else they know. None ever look alarmed or have anything negative to say, even those with reactive dogs. I can't say I've EVER been out with a dog and seen another owner with a dog off leash but under control break a command. The people who are training and working with their dog and expecting something of them, around here anyway, don't have dogs that break stays or heels or anything else to be a nuisance.
> 
> That said, I did not say that my dogs weren't friendly. I said that I tell people who have dogs that rush mine (on leash) that they are not and could potential harm their dog severely, as this has been the case before. Luckily, the dog was small enough that I could pick up and put in a headlock. Or I would have been dealing with a dog fight on my own with a dog I didn't know. I would never take the risk to let a dog aggressive dog off leash anywhere but a private fenced yard with no other dogs. They get exercised on long lines as a rule. Which is still breaking the leash law, but is keeping everyone safe.
> 
> ...


The people that are getting scared, and panicking by seeing loose dogs on their walks in areas that have leash laws, are not usually going to come up to you and tell you. Instead, they are going to turn around and try to get out of eyesight of your dog, and hope your dog doesn't come after them. And then they will probably avoid going there, because they now think of it as an area with loose dogs. That's not exactly fair to the people that aren't breaking the law...is it?

I know I have only yelled at 4 people who's loose dogs have run up and gotten into a fight with my leashed dogs. The rest of the time, if I see a loose dog off in the distance, I turn around and go the other way, shortening my walk. And I now walk my dogs after 10 pm, and usually closer to midnight, because of people with loose dogs. Is that fair? Considering it's a residential neighborhood with a leash law?


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> So petition your local government to make one of the local parks/trails off-leash.
> 
> Am I the only one who lives in a city with off-leash parks that aren't thunderdome-style?


Our dog park is pretty good. Has a large dog and a small dog side, good group of regulars, whose dogs are well behaved. Not a "thunderdome" type atmosphere.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> Like meet someone in person? I've told several people in person that they need to leash up their dogs, regardless of their obedience status. It makes me uncomfortable to have dogs romping about the park next to kids on swing sets and other leashed dogs. And you know what? Even when I met that person on the trails, where there are less people, I was uncomfortable walking my dog past their dog because he was off leash in an on leash zone. I don't know how obedient your dogs really are. If I was scared of dogs, I can only imagine the fear it would strike in me to see a dog, no matter how obedient, off leash.
> 
> My childhood friends were scared of dogs. Terrified. For apparently no reason, they had never been bitten or growled at or run over. They were really, really scared though. For a very long time, they couldn't come over to my house because they were so afraid of Pepper, even when he was on leash or in a different room. From what I understand of people with a fear of dogs, this is not unusual. People who are so scared of dogs like this, will actively avoid parks where dogs are known to be off leash. They may pay taxes for these parks and they may enjoy these parks but the dogs are so scary that they do not use these parks. They have every right to be there but they are too scared to go and/or complain to you in person.
> 
> A valid concern is that... it's the law? Why are your dogs excused from the law? Because they are so obedient? Recall is only 100% until it fails. Dogs are not robots. I do not want your (being the general your) dogs breaking their stay "that one time" and coming at my dog. Or me.


And if someone like you said something and my dog wasn't leashed, I would comply. I made that perfectly clear. But if no one is going to speak up, they can't expect me to be a mind reader... When every person I see says something nice or smiles and nods I have no reason to think anyone is bothered by what I'm doing. 

If people cannot function while seeing a dog off leash many dozen yards away, I'm sorry, but they should probably be on meds for it. There are off leash stray dogs all over this country and the chances of them seeing one at some point in their life is very likely.

We're not excused from the law at all, and if I am ever caught and fined then I'm not going to argue about it. But, people don't really have a reason to complain and I like to keep it that way. 



RabbleFox said:


> Noooo... Don't do this! As someone who worked in a Pet Store, we all hated it.  You are on property where the store owner asks you to keep your dogs on leash. I was that grouchy store employee who had to crack down on everyone's "fun" because I made people leash up and walk their dogs about the store properly. I've had customers say that they are uncomfortable with big dogs being left in down-stays or sit-stays with the owner no where in sight. Yeah the dog might be staying but suddenly that aisle is uncomfortable for some customers to walk down.
> 
> I get that you are training but it's store policy that dogs stay on leash. That doesn't mean that you leave your leashed dog in a down-stay at the front counter or in an aisle whilst you shop, either. Often times employees won't say anything because they don't want to lose customers. But we also had dog fights break out where someone thought their off leash dog would be ok in a down until that one dog came in and BAM! Dog fight at the front counter.
> 
> This is just coming from a former pet store employee. I loved when people would bring their dogs in but really, please keep them leashed. I don't know how well trained your dogs really are and you are asking me to trust your training. It's not ok. It worried me every. single. time.


I don't think you should make such blanket statements. I don't think it's posted anywhere that dogs must remain on leash, and they actually let another fellow with good voice control over his Dalmatian bring her in completely off leash and she walks the store with him with no leash in site. My dogs aren't that good in such close quarters, unfortunately. 

And I know that the employees don't hate it, either. I'm dating an employee that I met there, was offered a job by them, and worked with the manager's husband for two years. I know all of them pretty well and I know they would tell me if it bothered them, not smile and nod and ask to be a distraction or throw something near the dogs for proofing. 

Every place is different, I'm glad I have this store to use for training and socialization for both myself and the dogs. 




> Yeah, unless the _property owner_, not the store manager, not the employees but the actual property owner gives the "OK" for doing that sort of training with a dog in a stay away from you etc, then don't. If I owned a pet store and had a leash policy (which I sure would because I'd hate to even think of what my liability insurance bill would be like without a leash policy.... if anyone would even insure the store), I'd fire any employee letting someone have their dog off leash (off-leash including dragging a leash) during open hours of the store. Because I'd be protecting my store and my assets by requiring as much risk mitigation is possible and I wouldn't want my butt being sued when that "well trained" off-leash dog hurts someone. Yes, leashed dogs can get into fights. Yes, leashed dogs can injure someone by tripping them or whatever. The point for the property owner is to make reasonable efforts to keep the property safe.


I'm thinking the store owner must not care too much... I see this sort of thing there frequently, and I actually see it at many other stores as well... Heck, there's a small dog shop who lets their spaniels loose in the store and they aren't friendly. The feed store has their friendly bloodhound and newfie walking the store... It's just... common around here. 



sassafras said:


> I feel like I've taken crazy pills today. No, we can't accommodate every person's phobia in this world, but in an area that _already has_ leash laws, someone who is afraid of dogs has a reasonable expectation of not encountering off leash dogs. You are not "accommodating" anyone or making any special dispensation in that case by following the law. They have every right to expect that your dog will be on leash.
> 
> It's a total strawman to say "well what if I was afraid of children, they're in public!" because we have no existing laws that would give you a reasonable expectation not to encounter children in public. By all means campaign to get one passed if you feel that strongly, but off leash laws that already exist, already exist. And saying stuff like "I'm not hurting anyone" or "well no one really complains to me" isn't really a strong argument, I don't think. You ARE hurting people with anxieties, phobias, or reactive dogs, you just don't know it and they just aren't complaining to you... Most people aren't going to complain to your face especially if you have a large dog beside you.
> 
> I mean, we all rationalize things that we want to do that technically we aren't allowed to do (including me). But really it's just that we want to do the stuff that we want to do, not that we truly have a justification to do so or that opposing concerns aren't important or valid. This whole thread is actually a really fascinating exercise of human nature, I love it.


But those with the phobias, which I have never heard of or encountered personally and I doubt are all that common in places where there are frequently dogs at all, are not encountering my dogs off leash. My dogs are still 15+ feet away from them, at my front or side just as they would be if they were leashed. They aren't being greeted or jumped on. My dogs wouldn't greet them if they wanted them to... lol.

Like I said, if people ever looked, acted, or voiced concerns to me about it, I wouldn't let them off leash anywhere that we may encounter other people with or without dogs walking... But there are times when I don't want to go to designated off leash areas because I don't want my dogs approached by other dogs. I just want to train them and enjoy them. And so far, no one seems to have an issues with it. *shrugs*


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> The people that are getting scared, and panicking by seeing loose dogs on their walks in areas that have leash laws, are not usually going to come up to you and tell you. Instead, they are going to turn around and try to get out of eyesight of your dog, and hope your dog doesn't come after them. And then they will probably avoid going there, because they now think of it as an area with loose dogs. That's not exactly fair to the people that aren't breaking the law...is it?
> 
> I know I have only yelled at 4 people who's loose dogs have run up and gotten into a fight with my leashed dogs. The rest of the time, if I see a loose dog off in the distance, I turn around and go the other way, shortening my walk. And I now walk my dogs after 10 pm, and usually closer to midnight, because of people with loose dogs. Is that fair? Considering it's a residential neighborhood with a leash law?


You're changing your schedule/route because you're worrying... I can't help what anyone is going to worry about. My dogs are behaving and giving no one real reason to worry about anything.

I worry every time I see a LEASHED reactive, aggressive, or otherwise untrained dog with a dumb owner who looks like they could be pulled down by the dog at any moment. I don't change my route or anything, I just deal with a problem if it arises... 

I see unleashed dogs in yards and walk by, prepared to handle my dogs and kick or pepper spray the dog if they leave the yard. 

I'm not going to let my worries effect what I do with my life. I'm worried about getting raped, too. It's a fear I have. So I carry a knife and I own firearms, and I know how to use them. I don't stay in my house with my doors locked all day and avoid men.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> And if someone like you said something and my dog wasn't leashed, I would comply. I made that perfectly clear. But if no one is going to speak up, they can't expect me to be a mind reader... When every person I see says something nice or smiles and nods I have no reason to think anyone is bothered by what I'm doing.
> 
> If people cannot function while seeing a dog off leash many dozen yards away, I'm sorry, but they should probably be on meds for it. There are off leash stray dogs all over this country and the chances of them seeing one at some point in their life is very likely.
> 
> ...


It's not just people with phobias. It's people walking ON LEASH dogs, that are fearful of loose dogs. The people who have dogs that have been attacked by loose dogs while walking on leash. THEY are the ones that are fearful, and having to change where/when they walk their dogs, because people like you choose to break the leash law, and feel that it's OK. No one knows the level of your dog's training. Seeing a loose dog, when you are walking your leashed dog, makes many people uneasy, and makes them turn around and go the other way, fearfully hoping your dogs don't see them. Do You NOT GET THAT?????


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> And if someone like you said something and my dog wasn't leashed, I would comply. I made that perfectly clear. *But if no one is going to speak up, they can't expect me to be a mind reader*... When every person I see says something nice or smiles and nods I have no reason to think anyone is bothered by what I'm doing.


You aren't being expected to be a mind reader, you're being expected to be complying with the laws in place for that given location. It's not 'off leash- dogs must be leashed upon request'. They shouldn't have to speak up because you shouldn't be breaking the law in the first place, quite frankly. 

I'm not a 'all laws are absolute and must always be followed and not doing so is wrong no matter what ever' kind of person but saying the fault lies with the other individual because they should have asked you to stop breaking the law is pretty silly.

It's like saying to a police officer that pulled you over for speeding that no one told you they were uncomfortable with how fast you were going otherwise you would have slowed down. But you were comfortable with being able to control your car at that speed so it shouldn't be a problem.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

As long as we're all clear that I'm a horrible wreckless person lol


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

All these people that keep talking about having these giant open expanses with no leash laws are making me do big lols.

Some of us aren't that fortunate, so we make-do with what we have. Which in my case, includes breaking the law. I'm not even going to try to justify it because even though I have *MY* reasons that are good enough for *ME*, chances are at some point I'm probably going to make someone mad because I'm breaking the law.

Such is life.

(also, the whole argument about breaking the law is strange, because we pass the police constantly in the parking lot and on the trails (with little off road thingies) and I have YET to be given a warning. And these are ticket-happy cops.)


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

If the law requires leashed dog in the park they should be leashed. Have two friends that their dogs were attacked by dogs off leash in a leashed area. The one rat terrier dog received a large laceration right across her shoulders. The attack has turned her into a fearful dog. I blame the inconsiderate dog owner whose dog was off leash and out of control. I also ran into a woman in the park I walk my dogs in whose little westie was picked up and shook by a dog off leash. Yes there are many responsible dog owners whose dogs are reliable off leash but the problem is that a lot of the dogs who pop out of the woods are not. Unless you know the dog and owner personally there is no way to predict the outcome until you are in the situation.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ireth0 said:


> You aren't being expected to be a mind reader, you're being expected to be complying with the laws in place for that given location. It's not 'off leash- dogs must be leashed upon request'. They shouldn't have to speak up because you shouldn't be breaking the law in the first place, quite frankly.
> 
> I'm not a 'all laws are absolute and must always be followed and not doing so is wrong no matter what ever' kind of person but saying the fault lies with the other individual because they should have asked you to stop breaking the law is pretty silly.
> 
> It's like saying to a police officer that pulled you over for speeding that no one told you they were uncomfortable with how fast you were going otherwise you would have slowed down. But you were comfortable with being able to control your car at that speed so it shouldn't be a problem.


I'm saying that I am not putting anyone at risk, and I'm taking full fault. But if someone is particularly uncomfortable with something that I'm doing- just say something. I'll stop. I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable. I think if these people do exist around here, they are the minority, and I haven't met any of them yet, so I would surely expect someone to tell me if I were hindering their good time.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Loki Love said:


> Nope, because if I see you coming along with your dog, on leash - then I'm going to leash up my dog.


The problem with this is, for DA dogs or reactive dogs, by the time YOU see US, my dog has seen YOUR off leash dog, so the damage has already been done, whether your dog has gotten close or not, and my reactive dog is in total freak out mode. That is the thing, with lots of trails and such, with shrubs and brush and trees and all, you can't always see far enough in advance, and then, boom, an unleashed dog is there. Even if your dog comes right to you when called, as I said, the damage has already been done. 

For those of us who have reactive or DA dogs, you know that the walk is pretty much ruined after that. It's all about recovery, trying to calm them down, and then, when you get home, you still see the effects.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> It's not just people with phobias. It's people walking ON LEASH dogs, that are fearful of loose dogs. The people who have dogs that have been attacked by loose dogs while walking on leash. THEY are the ones that are fearful, and having to change where/when they walk their dogs, because people like you choose to break the leash law, and feel that it's OK. No one knows the level of your dog's training. Seeing a loose dog, when you are walking your leashed dog, makes many people uneasy, and makes them turn around and go the other way, fearfully hoping your dogs don't see them. Do You NOT GET THAT?????


No, I don't. I've had my dogs rushed (because we do walk on leash many times and I have dogs that cannot be off leash) and they would have been attacked had I not harmed the other dogs first. I've been on the receiving end. And like I said, off leash dogs still don't bother me a bit when I can see that the owner is paying attention and that the dog is listening to them. Not a bit. Dogs running miles ahead of their owners and making large circles or looking excited at mine off leash make me minorly nervous, but I just keep walking unless something actually happens. Then I rip them a new one, verbally, for being so irresponsible. And I would expect someone to do the same to me if my dogs ever behaved that way.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

"I don't know how many people I'm affecting by breaking the leash laws, and I don't care."

There, now nobody has to write a long post justifying their actions, because that covers it. 

And I don't often say something to people with off-leash dogs, because I don't want to get close enough. If I spot a loose dog in time, my dogs and I will change course to put as much distance between us and the loose dog as possible. When I do unintentionally get close enough (like when a loose dog comes around a corner and surprises us, or comes crashing through the woods on the trails), I'll sometimes remind the owner that leash laws are in place in the area. They do not usually react well.

I guess people with larger dogs just don't get it. My dogs weigh 9 and 18 lbs and could be killed instantly. I can't keep walking toward a loose dog hoping they won't cause a problem. Loose dogs can ruin my walks.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> So tell me, how do you TRAIN a SAR dog if you can't take them off leash?


Lol. You train them on private property or property that the city allows you to use. You can't just dedicate any space you see fit to dog training unless you are training a service dog. Even then there are rules. You can train a dog off leash in an area where you are allowed to take your dog off leash. Not just willy nilly. 

DJ my local pet stores, ALL of them, have posted on leash rules. It must be very different in your area.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> No, I don't. I've had my dogs rushed (because we do walk on leash many times and I have dogs that cannot be off leash) and they would have been attacked had I not harmed the other dogs first. I've been on the receiving end


So you know how scary it is to get rushed and attacked and yet you still expect other people --- who do NOT know if your dogs are about to run at them or not -- to be fine with your off-leash dogs ?

Chester is amazing with dogs. He can greet other dogs while both are leashed, he can greet other dogs while both are off-leash, he is one of our "test dogs" to assess new rescues for DA or fearful tendencies, he can ignore barking dogs that are behind fences etc. But when he sees a dog off-leash while he is on-leash, his entire posture changes. This isn't because of my stress feeding towards him because he does this even if he sees the loose dog before I see it. He is not leash-reactive. He is simply aware of the danger and stressed by it because of being attacked. He (and I) have no idea about the other dog. None. And I'm not going to be reassured by a stranger telling me their dog isn't going to come at me either. 

For a reactive dog, a loose dog is a 100 times worse and even if the other dog is well behaved, the reactive dog knows the other dog is loose. They really do. And that messes up weeks of training and stresses me and the reactive dog AND Chester and puts all of us at risk. 
Again, I'm not talking about very quiet places where it is highly unlikely to see another person on a hike; I'm talking about parks where you are going to see other people and dogs on a regular basis and know that ahead of time.



Crantastic said:


> I guess people with larger dogs just don't get it. My dogs weigh 9 and 18 lbs and could be killed instantly. I can't keep walking toward a loose dog hoping they won't cause a problem. Loose dogs can ruin my walks.


I get it. My dogs may be big enough that a loose dog is unlikely to kill instantly, but they're still at risk and I would be too for breaking up a dog fight. Along those same lines though, very small loose dogs may not be able to hurt my dog but when I see a tiny dog running at us, I'm terrified that the small dog will be seriously hurt. Chester is very comfortable with small dogs running up to him, he has nothing much to fear from them, but I'm still scared that he'll step on the dog or hurt it by accident. Not to mention the risk to the small dog from traffic and such in the urban areas.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/p480x480/1238338_664180603607257_479939812_n.jpg
A picture is worth a thousand words. How would you feel if this were your dog. Notice the shaved spot with the scar from the dog attack that she received from an unleashed dog.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Shell said:


> So you know how scary it is to get rushed and attacked and yet you still expect other people --- who do NOT know if your dogs are about to run at them or not -- to be fine with your off-leash dogs ?
> 
> Chester is amazing with dogs. He can greet other dogs while both are leashed, he can greet other dogs while both are off-leash, he is one of our "test dogs" to assess new rescues for DA or fearful tendencies, he can ignore barking dogs that are behind fences etc. But when he sees a dog off-leash while he is on-leash, his entire posture changes. This isn't because of my stress feeding towards him because he does this even if he sees the loose dog before I see it. He is not leash-reactive. He is simply aware of the danger and stressed by it because of being attacked. He (and I) have no idea about the other dog. None. And I'm not going to be reassured by a stranger telling me their dog isn't going to come at me either.
> 
> ...


Yep. I can tell the difference between a dog that is focused on his handler and is going to comply and a dog that isn't. I don't worry about well-behaved dogs loose. My reactive dogs have never cared about loose dogs that weren't rushing at them. I don't mind, I don't expect other people to mind.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Yep. I can tell the difference between a dog that is focused on his handler and is going to comply and a dog that isn't. I don't worry about well-behaved dogs loose. My reactive dogs have never cared about loose dogs that weren't rushing at them. I don't mind, I don't expect other people to mind.


I mind.  Bae minded.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Yep. I can tell the difference between a dog that is focused on his handler and is going to comply and a dog that isn't. I don't worry about well-behaved dogs loose. My reactive dogs have never cared about loose dogs that weren't rushing at them.* I don't mind, I don't expect other people to mind.*


Since something doesn't bother YOU, you expect everyone else you encounter not to be bothered either (in a location which they have the expectation not to be bothered)?

Since your reactive dogs don't care about loose dogs, you expect other reactive dogs not to care?

Since you can tell the difference between a dog that is going to comply and one that is not, you expect all the other park users to feel the same confidence in reading the body language of a strange dog? (In park users, I'm including of course all those people that don't have dogs and may have no experience or only bad experiences with dogs)


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> "I don't know how many people I'm affecting by breaking the leash laws, and I don't care."
> 
> There, now nobody has to write a long post justifying their actions, because that covers it.
> 
> ...


Are you walking (and I am not insulting or insinuating anything, just curious) in areas that are really hilly and you cant see anyone coming until they're right by you? I can see people coming from pretty far away - I'm bad at judging distance, but at least 500 yards- and I call my dog back and hold their collar the minute I see a person, and then leash if the person has a dog. Idk, maybe its different with more nervous dogs, as in they may be looking around intently for other dogs? I always see people before Bubba does because I'm constantly on the lookout.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Shell said:


> Since something doesn't bother YOU, you expect everyone else you encounter not to be bothered either (in a location which they have the expectation not to be bothered)?
> 
> Since your reactive dogs don't care about loose dogs, you expect other reactive dogs not to care?
> 
> Since you can tell the difference between a dog that is going to comply and one that is not, you expect all the other park users to feel the same confidence in reading the body language of a strange dog? (In park users, I'm including of course all those people that don't have dogs and may have no experience or only bad experiences with dogs)


No, she apparently just doesn't give a crap whether it bothers other people when she breaks the law, and causes fear in others, and causes them to cut their walks short. But this is the same person who on another thread says she can't wait to take her dog to barns and play "Go get the kitty". Apparently chasing asn scaring/injuring/or killing cats that live at the barn is fun, and ok too, because after all, it is not about other people or animals...


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> I mind.  Bae minded.


And if you met me with my dogs off leash, all you'd have to do is ask me to leash them if I didn't already. Like I said, I usually leash them for moments of reactive dogs passing if I can tell the dog is reactive, anyway.



spotted nikes said:


> No, she apparently just doesn't give a crap whether it bothers other people when she breaks the law, and causes fear in others, and causes them to cut their walks short. But this is the same person who on another thread says she can't wait to take her dog to barns and play "Go get the kitty". Apparently chasing asn scaring/injuring/or killing cats that live at the barn is fun, and ok too, because after all, it is not about other people or animals...


Where did I ever say that "Go get the kitty" meant scaring, injuring, or killing anything? You're making a lot of assumptions here. My dogs live peacefully and happily with two cats and often cuddle. It doesn't mean what you think it means.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

I live right next to a high school in an apartment complex. I just have to walk through the back parking lots to access the sports fields, and that's often what I do. I let Abbie off leash once we get to the fields and are out of the parking lots and she can run. She pretty much sticks pretty close to me, trotting and running around in circles...she has a very good recall. The way the sports fields are set up, it's like the size of 2-3 football fields, all connected, so it's a big wide open space, with some sidewalks intertwined on the outer edges for people to walk. It's nice because I can see everyone and every dog that's there, and Abbie isn't interested in dogs unless we are pretty close. So I just keep my distance and stay on a different side of the field. 

There are several people that use the field as a place to exercise dogs off leash. There's also leashed dogs that walk with owners. There is one guy that had his husky (huge husky) on a long line, but the dog slipped it's harness and came charging up to us. Murphy my frenchie does not like strange dogs, especially getting in his face, so he started jumping at the husky and nipping at it's face. I don't particularly trust a lot of arctic breeds the way I would say a golden or something, so I was trying to break it up as the husky was standing over Murphy and getting a little pushy. It wouldn't take much for the husky to severely injure Murphy, Murphy barely even has sharp teeth, they are like little chiclets, so I instinctively just punched the dog in it's head before the owner got to us to try to get it to back off. 

I don't let my frenchie off leash unless we are right outside my apartment because he potties and then runs back to go inside. But on walks and such? No...he has awful recall and no awareness for cars. But my hound mix Abbie goes off leash much of the time.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I'm super on the fence about this. I don't think it's a mortal sin to go off leash in areas that do not allow it, and I also think you can only consider other dogs SO MUCH. I have two leash reactives (I want to say FORMER but every odd while Smalls will get set off by something like dogs off lead playing) and two that do not really love strange dogs, but I don't feel like owners with dogs that are under vocal command easily should have to constantly worry about whether or not they'll run into someone with dogs like mine. If I see an off lead dog in an advanced, I actually put distance between us or turn around. I rarely have to do this because most people I come across with off lead dogs leash them pretty quickly upon seeing another person.
> 
> So I suppose I tentatively think.. if your dog is reliable off lead, dog friendly, and you're not going to be in an area where it will cause an issue no matter how good YOUR dog is, then go nuts. Like the hiking preserve we go to is 1,000 some acres and there is a leash rule. It's really not going to burn my butt if some one does not follow the leash rule there because the odds of seeing someone is pretty small.



Yeah, this.

The few dogs I've seen off leash in on leash areas are typically not concerned with other dogs or people... it's usually people playing fetch, etc, so the dog is so into the game, it's not even looking at me. 

I honestly rarely come across it as it is, so don't have much experience. But I think it's a highly situational thing. 

Like, I would be pissed if I was walking the trails in our state park and an off leash dog came up to me. These trails are small-ish, and windy, and this is a park that is often crowded, so you never know what's coming around the corner. There is also an off leash dog park in this said park. However, when I go up to a local park that has baseball fields, tennis courts, etc, there's typically hardly anyone there. Occasionally I run into a person with an off leash dog but I kind of expect it, because they are probably thinking (like me) "oh, there's probably nobody there, etc" it's kind of a secluded place during the day. This is also the park where I usually use my long line (50'). I, however, still wait in my car if I see one upon arrival until they've gone somewhere else, just to be safe. I can't take as many chances with my 17lb dog who could be injured easily. If I see a dog approaching us, I will pick him up.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> And if you met me with my dogs off leash, all you'd have to do is ask me to leash them if I didn't already. Like I said, I usually leash them for moments of reactive dogs passing if I can tell the dog is reactive, anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I ever say that "Go get the kitty" meant scaring, injuring, or killing anything? You're making a lot of assumptions here. My dogs live peacefully and happily with two cats and often cuddle. It doesn't mean what you think it means.


So please explain, what :Go get the kitty" and "Go get the squirrels" means... Surely you aren't going to say, you just tell your leashed dogs that, to watch their ears prick...

Many dogs live happily with their own family cats, but will chase/kill a strange cat.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think people are talking about different things just due to different locations. I can't imagine anyone here is ok with dogs off leash running all around near on leash dogs. 

Not all parks are the same though. Our park is 400 acres and sometimes there's only 1-2 other cars. It's pretty darn flat and open too in many areas. No way to sneak up on anyone here.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> So please explain, what :Go get the kitty" and "Go get the squirrels" means... Surely you aren't going to say, you just tell your leashed dogs that, to watch their ears prick...


I explained on the other thread already. You're being extremely rude to me for no reason and I don't appreciate it. 

Get the squirrel is what we call time with his flirt pole. He runs and sits by the door to go actually get the squirrel, or sometimes skunk... 

Both rewards based on prey drive. Not injuring, killing, or scaring anything.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I think people are talking about different things just due to different locations. I can't imagine anyone here is ok with dogs off leash running all around near on leash dogs.
> 
> Not all parks are the same though. Our park is 400 acres and sometimes there's only 1-2 other cars. It's pretty darn flat and open too in many areas. No way to sneak up on anyone here.


Most definitely there are location differences. Along with "dog culture" differences probably. Like Sass and I've mostly been talking about city parks where it is _common_ to meet walkers, dog walkers, bikers, kids, etc. 

My area parks are HUGE but they consist mainly of either fairly busy walking paths, roadways, playgrounds and open areas for sports which all have far too many dangers for a loose dog and far too many people OR narrow and steep trails where you cannot see what's around the bend/about to come crashing through the woods (and even those trails are moderately busy and some shared with horses). Even setting aside the leash law, they aren't suitable spots for off leash dogs. Given the combination of being unsuitable for off leash dogs and the leash law, people should be able to expect not to encounter loose dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Rescued said:


> Are you walking (and I am not insulting or insinuating anything, just curious) in areas that are really hilly and you cant see anyone coming until they're right by you? I can see people coming from pretty far away - I'm bad at judging distance, but at least 500 yards- and I call my dog back and hold their collar the minute I see a person, and then leash if the person has a dog. Idk, maybe its different with more nervous dogs, as in they may be looking around intently for other dogs? I always see people before Bubba does because I'm constantly on the lookout.


Several of these incidents happened in High Park, the 400-acre park across the street from my Toronto apartment building. The eastern trails in the park are off-leash, so I avoided those. The western trails are leash-only. The paths are narrow -- on many of them, two people couldn't walk comfortably side by side. In summer and fall, the trees are covered in leaves, which limits visibility. I loved it in there. I did not love the people who were too lazy to walk across the park to the eastern trails and would let their dogs run ahead of them up the paths.





































That should give you an idea.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

doxiemommy said:


> The problem with this is, for DA dogs or reactive dogs, by the time YOU see US, my dog has seen YOUR off leash dog, so the damage has already been done, whether your dog has gotten close or not, and my reactive dog is in total freak out mode. That is the thing, with lots of trails and such, with shrubs and brush and trees and all, you can't always see far enough in advance, and then, boom, an unleashed dog is there. Even if your dog comes right to you when called, as I said, the damage has already been done.
> 
> For those of us who have reactive or DA dogs, you know that the walk is pretty much ruined after that. It's all about recovery, trying to calm them down, and then, when you get home, you still see the effects.


Yes, yes, and yes. I have a reactive dog. Am I and my dog supposed to be the one who suffers because YOU (general), wanted to be inconsiderate and break the leash law in a HIGH TRAFFIC area? It's not fair to me or my dog, because I am following the law by keeping my dog leashed. It's rude, inconsiderate, and ignorant.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

I think it depends. If you're aware of your surroundings, have a dog under voice control, and will leash up (and not be a jerk about it) when you see someone approaching with an on leash dog, I don't have a huge problem with it. If your off leash dog comes anywhere near my on leash dog in an on leash area, I'm going to be pissed.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Lol. You train them on private property or property that the city allows you to use. You can't just dedicate any space you see fit to dog training unless you are training a service dog. Even then there are rules. You can train a dog off leash in an area where you are allowed to take your dog off leash. Not just willy nilly.
> 
> DJ my local pet stores, ALL of them, have posted on leash rules. It must be very different in your area.


Not true! As far as I remember, service dogs in training have the same access under ADA as actual service dogs. 
Depending which State you live in, you may very well have permission to take your dog on State Land, where actual Leash Laws exist, and train your dog if you are on an existing team! 
And honestly, it is very hard to find private properties to train on. Pretty much anyone I know up here has issues to find land to track on, let alone find properties to work your Search Dogs on. 


Except for the Hunting Season, we use State Land and continue to use State Land. 

That being said, my whole point is that some Laws are simply ridiculous. A dog doesn't get trained by staying on a damn leash and maybe, just maybe, working dog laws should be revisited and changed because a Search Dog isn't trained in your backyard. It takes hours, upon hours, upon hours, training logs and countless training to get a solid search dog.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> Not true! As far as I remember, service dogs in training have the same access under ADA as actual service dogs.
> Depending which State you live in, you may very well have permission to take your dog on State Land, where actual Leash Laws exist, and train your dog if you are on an existing team!
> And honestly, it is very hard to find private properties to train on. Pretty much anyone I know up here has issues to find land to track on, let alone find properties to work your Search Dogs on.
> 
> ...


You must be getting my points crossed. Service dogs and service dogs in training have access to any place the public might. And both service dogs and service dogs in training may be off leash as long as they are working in the state of Michigan. But!Service dogs and service dogs in training have to follow rules to though and may be asked to land the premises if they are causing a ruckus. 

If your state allows you to train SAR dogs off leash on state land, then yay! I suppose that michigan's law would perhaps allow a SAR dog in training off leash but only if he were genuinely practicing searches. Just because your dog is a registered SAR dog (or whatever your dog works or titles as) doesn't mean they can be off leash when they aren't working in my state. 

Leash laws are not ridiculous and prevent the schmucks who aren't nearly as great of trainers as you from letting their dogs loose. I suppose we should be thankful for leash laws and the fact that only people with perfectly obedient dogs can stick their heads above the law in places where they will most certainly see other people and dogs. Just because they want to.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think a state making a leash law in every single place that isn't marked for off-leash use (or private property. . .I hope?) is ridiculous. Even way out in the country? I think Michigan has plenty of empty space. I doubt it's enforced in the middle of nowhere, but it's still ridiculous. The fact that law got passed is kind of scary :/.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I'm not saying that dogs should be allowed to rampage through the park and jump on people. But if a dog is just as well-behaved off leash as on, I don't see why the owner should put a leash on the dog just to make other people feel more comfortable. I think it would be like asking the mother of a well-behaved child to hold her kid's hand all the time because I've been kicked by random loose little kids before.
> 
> If I couldn't just go out into the middle of nowhere to let my dogs run, I really would have no legal options. People do use the baseball fields to let their dogs run around in the off season, and nobody seems to mind, but I'm pretty sure it's technically not allowed. Not that there are any good parks around that aren't state parks anyway . And state parks require dogs to be on a leash no longer than 10 feet.


This is actually exactly what we do. 'The dog park' is a baseball field in a larger park. If expectation is the rule here then I don't see the problem. The park is widely known in the neighbourhood to function exactly as it does. There are never *not* dogs offlead. The area won't get designated as offlead because that would require fencing and closing the baseball field. Its a far more preferable solution to have both uses - plus it truly seems like people don't care. I gre up in this neighbourhood, know a lot of our neighbours and it has a *very* active community forum. They've actively petitioned against other changes in the local park structure This, though? Never been raised.

I find the actual use of the park more compelling than the regulations, personally. If I'm being really frank I also don't think its the end of the world that the park functions as offlead despite being rated as on-lead. At Uni our local beach functioned as a nude/semi nude beach. I didn't want to see naked people so I avoided it for the most part. Not a big deal. Most of the rest of the city is on-lead. There's no shortage of space for people who want (understandably) to walk in leashed areas.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, if anyone sees Gypsy and I off leash at a distance (we'll never be close to you), know that you can call out and ask me to leash her, and I will do so, without snark. You can also call the cops on me, if you feel too threatened to address me. I realize I'm in the wrong.

My greatest joy with this dog is our off leash time. I know folks are skeptical of dogs that *need* that kind of exercise. Maybe my dog doesn't (though I might argue that she does), but I absolutely do. She is a different animal while and after we work together off leash. I love LOVE LOVE seeing it. Maybe I could recreate that for us with other types of exercise and mental stimulation, but I honestly don't have nearly the time or the patience. And since the dog parks within a 45 min drive are all thunderdome style, we do off leash illegally. I guess I'll hope that there are better dog parks where we're moving. I would love to be a polite, law-abiding citizen again.

So yeah, I'm rude, I'm sorry. I'm going to continue doing this, trying to be discrete, but I really don't have an excuse. This is my five-mile-over-the-speed-limit.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I think a state making a leash law in every single place that isn't marked for off-leash use (or private property. . .I hope?) is ridiculous. Even way out in the country? I think Michigan has plenty of empty space. I doubt it's enforced in the middle of nowhere, but it's still ridiculous. The fact that law got passed is kind of scary :/.


Private property is to do with what you like unless the county or city had some law. I believe this particular section of the law was passed way back in 1919 and was say updated in 1970. Just the way things are. There are quite a few off leash areas including dog parks and off leash hiking trails throughout the state. 

Copy of the law and all that good stuff: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3a...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-287-262


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Several of these incidents happened in High Park, the 400-acre park across the street from my Toronto apartment building. The eastern trails in the park are off-leash, so I avoided those. The western trails are leash-only. The paths are narrow -- on many of them, two people couldn't walk comfortably side by side. In summer and fall, the trees are covered in leaves, which limits visibility. I loved it in there. I did not love the people who were too lazy to walk across the park to the eastern trails and would let their dogs run ahead of them up the paths.


Oh yeah thats TOTALLY different. I don't let my dogs offleash on those types of trails because you're right, they can run around the corner and come right smack into another dog.

For comparisons sake, here is a part of what I'm referring to. You can see how its sloped on the sides (meaning you can see people ahead of you in the grass because its high up) and the trails are long and not brushy.



Also not to mention- if there are offleash trails in the same place, why in the HAIL would people let dogs offleash on the onleash trail? That makes absolutely no sense (to me, i"m sure it didnt to you either). Here, I would (to my knowledge) have to drive over an hour one way to get to anywhere that is legally off leash and NOT thunderdome. And we don't have big thunderdomes, we have tiny ones (like large backyard sized) with a ton of dogs. And actually now that I said that, I dont even know any offleash places at all. But I would have to drive that far to get away from the countywide leash law.

And just because I got curious, googling for offleash places (non thunderdome) in my entire STATE pulled up nothing. Yes, I am justifying my lawbreaking, but when you have an active dog and a chronic illness that makes you unable to exercise for long periods of time.... there are only so many options to keep both of us sane.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

MaDeuce said:


> Not true! As far as I remember, service dogs in training have the same access under ADA as actual service dogs.


This is untrue. SDIT have the same access in some states because of a STATE law (ie Georgia) but SDIT do NOT federally have the same access rights as SD.

Hence why all the SD scams make you have a "working" SD because otherwise anyone could claim that any dog is an SDIT.

My state does not grant public access for SDIT. Most places here allow it, but they do not have to by law.

TL;DR: The ada DOES NOT protect the rights of service dogs in training. The ada ONLY protects the rights of working, fully trained service dogs. Access for service dogs in training is mandated on a STATE level, and NOT ALL STATES have access rights for service dogs in training.



MaDeuce said:


> Depending which State you live in, you may very well have permission to take your dog on State Land, where actual Leash Laws exist, and train your dog if you are on an existing team!


Also FYI, In my experience the leash laws on state land apply for SDIT just as they do pets. My SDIT don't get to be offleash in a state park just because they're SDIT. Actually, if there is a leash law I dont think ANYONE is exempt from it (SDIT or SD) unless doing so would directly hinder their performance as a SD team... which is.... nobody.

[and this may sound hypocritical because I have admitted that I break leash laws, but IMO it is a COMPLETELY different ballgame when you are endangering the rights of SD versus the rights of regular dog owners. Sorry ya'll. Bubba is released, he is not a legal SD or SDIT- but he acts like one, has all the tattoos, I could 100% fake it if I wanted to and get access rights with him. But I dont. And again, those are my personal values but just felt that this distinction should be explained. Also I have a chronic illness that I could get acess rights for, but I don't because I know I am able to function without a dog enough of the time  ]


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I defiantly think I lot of it is based on peoples perceptions based on where they live. I live in a major city, but in a not very densely populated area. I have a co-worker from Manchester England, who laughs at us when we complain about traffic, because there is more people in Manchester then in my entire province, to us its like "man traffic is deadly, it took 20 MINUTES to get to the other side of the city!!" lol, its not like there is people walking everywhere and crowds of people everywhere you go. we have an enormous park in the middle of the city(3 times the side of NY's Central Park) which is connected to parks and paths that run from one end of the city to the other, I can walk anywhere in the city without leaving a park. now for leash laws in my area.. dogs must be leashed at all times except in the dog park... ONE dog park..thunder dome style, with no separation..its not even fully fenced...and its closed 80% of the time because its on flood land and always under water. 

*actual photo of our dogpark*









why don't we campaign for more options? we have a whole damn lobby group dedicated to it! the ONLY reason we have any dog park at ALL is because a dog park was some big name ladies dying wish, the city gave us that land they literally could not use for ANYTHING else, named it after this lady and called it her dying wish fulfilled. 

as I said before I HAVE reactive dogs, I have been rushed by off leash dogs several times, I have yelled at people for being stupid, and I have been pissed off and trying to get my dogs back under control and my walk being ruined. this is not something I have not experienced and I STILL don't give a damn if someone's dog is off leash and under control. those against this keep talking about "should have to be rushed by off leash dogs" if an off leash dog rushes ANYONE, EVER, they are NOT under control. period. I really cant figure out how in the world it matters to a reactive dog if another dog is off leash or on, its not like dogs go "OMG!! DOG!!! oh..phew..its on a leash, I'm ok"  I have no doubt the PERSON does that it it transfers to the dog, but the DOG does not do that lol. if the off leash dog is rushing your reactive dog, well duh, by all mean, be pissed off, I'd be ranting too!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

If you walk your dog and others are using the park and your dog is supposed to be leashed than do it. What will happen? Pretty soon the sign will say "NO DOGS ALLOWED" State and Federal Parks do not have to allow dogs onto the property. It is a privilege and not a right to have dogs at the parks. Here the fine is $150 for being in a park without a leash on your dog. In my eyes not worth the fine.

Here is why I do not like to have dogs off leash at the parks I go to. I am bee-bopping down the trail with my friends and round a corner to see an unleashed dog staring at me. The owners oblivious as what their unleashed dog is now facing. I am on horseback and so are all my friends. Some of these horses are dog reactive. The dog just did not know what to think of the creature he was staring at and ran back to the owner. The owner did leash that dog and the other dog that was with him. What could have been a very bad situation did not erupt into a total panic disorder. My horse is a well traveled trail horse and does not react to things on a trail (even to a lone balloon out in the woods). At the time she was in the front and the other green horses had just gone from the front towards the back because we were entering into the woods. Also, the dog seemed bewildered by the big beast and did not charge the horses. So yes in the end it did end up okay and no one had to be taken to the hospital. 


Don't ruin it for other dog owners, keep the dog leashed.


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## JTurner (May 19, 2013)

I don't have a huge problem with people breaking leash laws personally, as long as the dog stays close to their owner, has a good recall, and doesn't show much interest in other dogs. Now I know that the majority of off leash dogs do not have what I stated above, which can be a hassle. I work at a State Park of over 1,000 acres of hills, creeks, forests, and meadows and honestly I enjoy watching dogs sprint in fields and loving life, but I also hope that the dog doesn't see a deer and take off. There are leash laws, but I don't have the authority to enforce the rules - the Rangers have to do that. I can actually get in trouble for enforcing the rules...Go figure!
I usually go running after work on the trails, and I hate when I'm in the woods and a strange dog comes sprinting up to me and I see no owner in site...First off it freaks me out bc I don't know how the dog will react seeing me run and second off I find myself stopping to see if he/she is friendly and trying to find the owners bc I hate the thought of someone loosing their dog.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> One more thought - if leash laws were passed by the consumers who actually used the parks (say at least once a month and not all the stay at home armchair voters)-- I think you would get more accurate laws...
> On the flexi leash thing... my dog got soooo tangled at the OFF leash beach- the pic in my Avatar actually-- by a yorkie on like a 20 ft flexi (with all these large dogs running loose having a ball) -- that was so fine it was invisible ... the line was black and my dog has long black fur.... it was terrible she started to panic....we had to cut her loose. Thank God... she and the yorkie were ok, but it could have been really bad...


This is a good example of how and when NOT to use a Flexi! I hate the cord type too....belt type is so much better.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Well, if anyone sees Gypsy and I off leash at a distance (we'll never be close to you), know that you can call out and ask me to leash her, and I will do so, without snark. You can also call the cops on me, if you feel too threatened to address me. I realize I'm in the wrong.
> 
> My greatest joy with this dog is our off leash time. I know folks are skeptical of dogs that *need* that kind of exercise. Maybe my dog doesn't (though I might argue that she does), but I absolutely do. She is a different animal while and after we work together off leash. I love LOVE LOVE seeing it. Maybe I could recreate that for us with other types of exercise and mental stimulation, but I honestly don't have nearly the time or the patience. And since the dog parks within a 45 min drive are all thunderdome style, we do off leash illegally. I guess I'll hope that there are better dog parks where we're moving. I would love to be a polite, law-abiding citizen again.
> 
> So yeah, I'm rude, I'm sorry. I'm going to continue doing this, trying to be discrete, but I really don't have an excuse. This is my five-mile-over-the-speed-limit.


Yeah, I agree with this. I'm lucky to live in a place with some very decent off-leash options. We have to drive there, and we go on weekends. There are also a couple of ballfields near us that allow off-leash dogging during the morning hours, and we go there too. My city doesn't have any traditional fenced dog parks, so that's what we've got. 

When I lived in DC, which had much worse off-leash options, yeah, we broke the leash law pretty frequently. 

But I also live near a 2-mile loop that goes around a reservoir. It's a great trail, and dogs aren't allowed off leash. My general rule is that if the other dogs I see are off-leash, then Biscuit is too. I'm not going to leash my dog when other dogs aren't leashed. Biscuit is great off-leash, and that's my preference anyway, so I don't see the need to ask other owners to leash their dogs (unless the dogs shouldn't be off-leash at all. I have gotten into arguments about, say, the Doodle that was being allowed to swim in the reservoir). This rule doesn't always avoid conflicts. For example, Biscuit ignores pedestrians and other dogs, but the other day some lady yelled at me for having Biscuit off leash, even though there were 4 other dogs off-leash nearby, "because she's bigger than the other dogs." Yeah, I didn't leash Biscuit that time. Sorry not sorry.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> So yeah, I'm rude, I'm sorry. I'm going to continue doing this, trying to be discrete, but I really don't have an excuse. This is my five-mile-over-the-speed-limit.


This made me laugh a little and is where I'll leave the topic.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

doxiemommy said:


> The problem with this is, for DA dogs or reactive dogs, by the time YOU see US, my dog has seen YOUR off leash dog, so the damage has already been done, whether your dog has gotten close or not, and my reactive dog is in total freak out mode. That is the thing, with lots of trails and such, with shrubs and brush and trees and all, you can't always see far enough in advance, and then, boom, an unleashed dog is there. Even if your dog comes right to you when called, as I said, the damage has already been done.
> 
> For those of us who have reactive or DA dogs, you know that the walk is pretty much ruined after that. It's all about recovery, trying to calm them down, and then, when you get home, you still see the effects.


You're assuming that I won't see or hear you first or at the same time? It's never once happened in the past. I use common sense and keep my eyes and ears open when we take Loki off leash. The one park we go to - if I can tell we are going to run into various people due to the number of cars we see in the parking lot - he stays on leash. If the place is looking deserted, he goes off leash and again, if I hear/see other people coming (regardless if they have a dog or not) - he goes back on leash. Knock wood - never had a problem yet.

I know what it's like to have a reactive dog and I also know that for most, it doesn't matter if that other dog is on or off leash anyway. (In my experience, anyway).



SydTheSpaniel said:


> Yes, yes, and yes. I have a reactive dog. Am I and my dog supposed to be the one who suffers because YOU (general), wanted to be inconsiderate and break the leash law in a HIGH TRAFFIC area? It's not fair to me or my dog, because I am following the law by keeping my dog leashed. It's rude, inconsiderate, and ignorant.


Read above - some of us here use common sense  I would never break the leash laws in a HIGH TRAFFIC area 



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Well, if anyone sees Gypsy and I off leash at a distance (we'll never be close to you), know that you can call out and ask me to leash her, and I will do so, without snark. You can also call the cops on me, if you feel too threatened to address me. I realize I'm in the wrong.


That's pretty much it - IF we happen to miss or not hear other people approaching on the trail.. then sure, give a yell and let me know. I will be more than happy to leash my dog up at that time and I will even do you the courtesy of thanking you for it once we pass each other. 

Again, not all of us are 'jerks' that are allowing the dogs off leash in on leash only areas. Common sense goes a long long way.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Like sass explained earlier, this is a bad argument. There are no laws against men walking in public after dark. There ARE laws about leashing your dog. It's not "just life" to expect to run into people breaking the law multiple times during the course of a walk... or at least it shouldn't be.
> 
> ("Leashed dogs leave poop on the path and loose dogs don't" is also ridiculous. Owners should be picking up poop. That's a separate issue from leashed vs. unleashed.)


right! No one should be tracking people down with binoculars and assaulting them...Right? IN a perfect world none of this would happen.
And leashed dogs leave more poop on the path I dont know what thats about but it just is....

I just see alot of laws being broken, and unleashed dogs are a very small part of that. You guys must live in a perfect world if the top of your list is unleashed dogs....

And that (like this Thread asks) is my Opinion....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

BernerMax said:


> I just see alot of laws being broken, and unleashed dogs are a very small part of that. You guys must live in a perfect world if the top of your list is unleashed dogs....


Who said it was? Why do you keep trying to misrepresent the argument?


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that when people have their dogs off leash in a Leash law area, OTHER people with dogs that may not be trained at all, see the dogs off leash and think its ok for them to do it too, so you end up encouraging people to go off leash with dogs that are probably not trained.
And the people that say, "if you don't want my dogs off leash, just holler and I'll leash them", don't realize that those of us with dogs that are aggressive to loose dogs running up to them, are trying to sneak away unnoticed. The LAST thing I would do is to yell over to the owner, and draw the dog's attention to us.
I've had dogs run up and attach mine in at least 4 situations in the last yr. All while walking in residential areas, and once down a street where no houses were built yet. In all of those situations, the people were yelling "He's friendly". Or they were yelling "heel!", or Come, to their dogs, and then said "I can't believe he did that" or He doesn't usually do that", or "He's trained!".


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that when people have their dogs off leash in a Leash law area, OTHER people with dogs that may not be trained at all, see the dogs off leash and think its ok for them to do it too, so you end up encouraging people to go off leash with dogs that are probably not trained.
> And the people that say, "if you don't want my dogs off leash, just holler and I'll leash them", don't realize that those of us with dogs that are aggressive to loose dogs running up to them, are trying to sneak away unnoticed. The LAST thing I would do is to yell over to the owner, and draw the dog's attention to us.
> I've had dogs run up and attach mine in at least 4 situations in the last yr. All while walking in residential areas, and once down a street where no houses were built yet. In all of those situations, the people were yelling "He's friendly". Or they were yelling "heel!", or Come, to their dogs, and then said "I can't believe he did that" or He doesn't usually do that", or "He's trained!".


And you could probably tell by the dogs demeanor from a distance that he was not going to be listening and was focused on you. By the time you see my dog, I've already seen you and called him back to me, put him in a down stay next to me while staring at my face or leashed him.


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## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm gonna be all sorts of redundant here and say 'leash up, it's the law'. My dog is very reactive on leash, off leash, all dogs are his best pal. Having you dog run up to mine, in a leash law area is like me running around grabbing hot guys bums on the street. It's an unwanted social interaction in a setting one should expect to feel safe and protected. Sexual harassment is no joke, and neither is your loose dog running up to my very anxious dog. 

I have been on the leash from a super laid back, placid dog, so I know the temptation to unleash is huge. I do think there needs to be better off leash infrastructure, and that a more dog inclusive society would reduce many of the issues we have with our dogs. Anyone who wants to go off leashin a certain area is more than welcome to lobby their municipality for redesignation. Until then, follow the law! 
Long winded redundant rant over


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

The other day, I was on the beach with (very reactive) Lucy and an off-leash dog comes running up to us with his owners literally completely out of sight, still getting out of their cars taking their dear sweet time. The kicker? The shore is enormous, and there is an empty beach right next to this one separated by a channel. Had they taken the dog over there and let him off leash, I wouldn't have cared at all and my nice day wouldn't have had such a stressful ending. I don't care when well behaved dogs are let off leash in places that you are unlikely to see people, that you can see all around you far away, and you leash up your dog as soon as you see somebody. I do it myself sometimes, but doing it in high traffic places or just letting your dog run willy nilly-- those are the people that ruin it for everybody.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

squiggles said:


> I'm gonna be all sorts of redundant here and say 'leash up, it's the law'. My dog is very reactive on leash, off leash, all dogs are his best pal. Having you dog run up to mine, in a leash law area is like me running around grabbing hot guys bums on the street. It's an unwanted social interaction in a setting one should expect to feel safe and protected. Sexual harassment is no joke, and neither is your loose dog running up to my very anxious dog.
> 
> I have been on the leash from a super laid back, placid dog, so I know the temptation to unleash is huge. I do think there needs to be better off leash infrastructure, and that a more dog inclusive society would reduce many of the issues we have with our dogs. Anyone who wants to go off leashin a certain area is more than welcome to lobby their municipality for redesignation. Until then, follow the law!
> Long winded redundant rant over


We aren't talking about letting our dogs approach strange dogs. We who do break the law all keep our dogs from greeting other dogs. That's why I do it in areas where there is a law- I don't want them meeting other dogs.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> We aren't talking about letting our dogs approach strange dogs. We who do break the law all keep our dogs from greeting other dogs. That's why I do it in areas where there is a law- I don't want them meeting other dogs.


Sorry, but that's silly. You break leash laws because you expect other people not to? It's safe to let your dogs off lead because everyone else is going to obey the law? Maybe I'm reading that wrong...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think a lot of people are like that. I started to suspect that all of those jerks in High Park with not-so-trustworthy dogs let them off-leash in the western (leash-required) trails rather than the eastern (off-leash) trails because they knew they weren't great with other dogs and didn't want to run into as many.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> We aren't talking about letting our dogs approach strange dogs. We who do break the law all keep our dogs from greeting other dogs. That's why I do it in areas where there is a law- I don't want them meeting other dogs.


How about you don't speak for all of us. I rarely have my dogs in situations where there are technical leash laws, but I sure as heck don't do so to keep my dog from greeting other dogs. I don't allow my dogs to greet strange dogs on or off leash, but I certainly don't go into places where there are leash laws specifically because I'm an enormous hypocrite who thinks everybody but me should be obeying the law. I go to those places because they are remote, because they have good visibility, and because they are reasonably safe places for me to allow my dogs to run.

Safe for my dogs AND other dogs. Yes, I suppose in a sense that's me choosing places where they aren't going to greet other dogs - because THERE ARE NO OTHER DOGS FOR THEM TO GREET.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

This thread just continues to amaze me...


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

For those of you that allow your dogs off leash in leash law areas, how can you GUARANTEE your dogs will obey you 100% of the time? Because let me tell you, I've seen highly trained, well behaved dogs take off on their owners after other dogs in public.

You can't guarantee that, because NO dog is 100%. Even if they are 99% of the time, and even if they don't mean any harm, there's always that 1% chance, and that's to much.


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## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> We aren't talking about letting our dogs approach strange dogs. We who do break the law all keep our dogs from greeting other dogs.


That's an awfully large demographic you are speaking on behalf of. And it's sad, but the vast majority of people probably do not have the control you have over your dogs. I might be the best driver ever, I'm still not exempt from the rules of the road.


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## London's owner (Sep 7, 2013)

There are parks/conservation areas in my area that normally have very few people and even fewer that are walking dogs (I can count on one hand how many dogs I've seen there in the past year). I live in a rural area so the parks are even MORE rural, much like the pictures many of you have posted. There are signs posted about having your animals leashed. Frankly, I see you with a dog that is off-leash, I will report you. You probably wont' even know it was me who reported you, as I won't get close enough to tell you to leash your dog. An off-leash dog is a hazard to MY dogs. I have no way of knowing how well-behaved your dog is, and don't want to get close enough to find out. Most of the reasoning behind the leash laws in those places is because they don't want dogs tangling with the wildlife, and not necessarily with other dogs. This is one of the reasons why I don't let my dogs off leash--because their recall isn't even CLOSE to perfect, and there is too much risk to them and the local wildlife--cougars will make short work of a dog. 

Many have said that their dogs have great recall. Super. That doesn't mean that I have to find other places to hike in because I worry about encountering off-leash dogs around the next bend in the trail, what my dogs reactions will be, and the reaction of the loose dog. 

Quite frankly, if you have a high energy dog, you should have made sure you were able to exercise the dog well WITHOUT breaking the law before you got the dog in the first place. Many on this forum encourage getting a dog that fits your lifestyle, and not getting dogs that you aren't able to exercise/stimulate effectively in your current home/circumstances.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Can we just make a new rule that if you're out walking your dogs off leash in an on leash area and see someone you just start screaming "DOGFORUMS!" at the stranger? Because I'm not sure how I'm going to know otherwise that it's you with your super well-behaved dogs. Quite frankly, the VAST majority of people I've run into who are off leash are NOT in control of their dogs and can't even begin to stop them from charging, even just to greet and get pets. 

Yes, they might be ruining it for the few of you with perfectly behaved dogs who would never disobey a command. But I should be able to go to my favorite park that has posted leash signs and be able to walk around and enjoy the park without being charged, approached, or otherwise inconvenienced by people breaking the law. Sorry, but you don't just get to say 'I'm inconvenienced by this law, so forget it.' If that's the case, I'm inconvenienced by the laws saying I can't punch people who annoy me in the face. I know that to a lot of off-leash people that may seem like completely different things, but it's actually not. To someone who's scared of dogs or has bad anxiety (like I do) or has leash reactive dogs with them, it really is like a punch to the face.

Find someplace remote where you run into one person a day. Fine. But don't come to crowded parks with little kids and people everywhere and then just say forget the rest of you, my dog is just fine and I don't give a hoot about your issues.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

> Sorry, but you don't just get to say 'I'm inconvenienced by this law, so forget it.' If that's the case, I'm inconvenienced by the laws saying I can't punch people who annoy me in the face. I know that to a lot of off-leash people that may seem like completely different things, but it's actually not. To someone who's scared of dogs or has bad anxiety (like I do) or has leash reactive dogs with them, it really is like a punch to the face.


Very well said.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Yes, yes, and yes. I have a reactive dog. Am I and my dog supposed to be the one who suffers because YOU (general), wanted to be inconsiderate and break the leash law in a HIGH TRAFFIC area? It's not fair to me or my dog, because I am following the law by keeping my dog leashed. It's rude, inconsiderate, and ignorant.


Not to mention dangerous! I sure as hell hope those of you who let your dogs off leash in leash law areas never come across us with Charlotte! You'll regret it, and have no one to blame but yourselves.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

RCloud said:


> Not to mention dangerous! I sure as hell hope those of you who let your dogs off leash never come across us with Charlotte! You'll regret it, and have no one to blame but yourselves.


Why? Because you can't control your leashed dog.. or...? Oh wait, you keep assuming that those of us letting our dogs off leash have zero control of our dogs?

I'm not sure why it's such a difficult concept to grasp that those of us who do it (well, speaking for myself only) use common sense and choose the areas carefully.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Loki Love said:


> Why? Because you can't control your leashed dog.. or...? Oh wait, you keep assuming that those of us letting our dogs off leash have zero control of our dogs?
> 
> I'm not sure why it's such a difficult concept to grasp that those of us who do it (well, speaking for myself only) use common sense and choose the areas carefully.


Lol. Most people and their dogs that I meet off leash in on leash areas aren't as well trained as all the DFer's dogs. Like... 98% of the off leash dogs and owners I've met, including my mom and Pepper!, don't have 100% control of their off leash dog 100% of the time. It's just not possible, firstly. Even DF dogs aren't robots. Secondly, a great many dogs won't even develop 99.99998% recall ever because of training or breed tendencies. 

I can tell you straight up that if an off leash dog met on leash Bae head on, there would be little I could do to prevent him from ripping into your dog. He didn't like bring confined on a leash and didn't like unknown, rude dogs. Even leashed, you can only control your dog so much. He was almost always on a 2ft lead and if your dog decided to get that close to me and my dog in public, after I'm yelling at you (general you) to leash up or call your dog off then I don't think there is much else for me to do. Except maybe never walk my dog ever?

Just because your dog us well trained doesn't mean he is above the law. Sry not sry.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> We aren't talking about letting our dogs approach strange dogs. We who do break the law *all* keep our dogs from greeting other dogs. That's why I do it in areas where there is a law- I don't want them meeting other dogs.


No, you don't ALL keep your dogs from greeting other dogs. That's the main complaint! 

Secondly, I also go to areas (with my leashed dog) where this is a law so that (theoretically at least) I don't have to deal with off-leash dogs.

I don't really even know what word describes someone that expects everyone else to follow the law while taking the convenience of breaking it herself specifically because other people are following the law. The park is not there for your personal convenience so maybe have just an ounce of thought and consideration for the rest of the park users, huh?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> Sorry, but that's silly. You break leash laws because you expect other people not to? It's safe to let your dogs off lead because everyone else is going to obey the law? Maybe I'm reading that wrong...


No, I never said I expected others not to. I specifically said in my first post that I have no problem with the other people like me out in the trails and fields that we visit who have their dogs off leash that control them. We play with our own dogs 20 yards from each other with no problem and neither dog approaches the other. That is the way I like it, personally. My dogs don't have an interest in dog parks much anymore as they've matured, so it's just annoying to them to have to ignore all the young dogs that want to playplayplay.



CptJack said:


> How about you don't speak for all of us. I rarely have my dogs in situations where there are technical leash laws, but I sure as heck don't do so to keep my dog from greeting other dogs. I don't allow my dogs to greet strange dogs on or off leash, but I certainly don't go into places where there are leash laws specifically because I'm an enormous hypocrite who thinks everybody but me should be obeying the law. I go to those places because they are remote, because they have good visibility, and because they are reasonably safe places for me to allow my dogs to run.
> 
> Safe for my dogs AND other dogs. Yes, I suppose in a sense that's me choosing places where they aren't going to greet other dogs - because THERE ARE NO OTHER DOGS FOR THEM TO GREET.


I was only speaking for all of us, here, who chimed in about their off leash dogs when I said that we keep them from approaching other dogs. I never spoke for everyone when I said that _*I*_ do it because I don't want my dogs to be approached/approaching other dogs.



RCloud said:


> For those of you that allow your dogs off leash in leash law areas, how can you GUARANTEE your dogs will obey you 100% of the time? Because let me tell you, I've seen highly trained, well behaved dogs take off on their owners after other dogs in public.
> 
> You can't guarantee that, because NO dog is 100%. Even if they are 99% of the time, and even if they don't mean any harm, there's always that 1% chance, and that's to much.


I mean, to be fair, statistically, the dog I really let off leash in places like this is 100%... is there a chance that the statistics could change at some point... yes. But he's never not recalled, never been motivated by a dog over me. He's never given me a reason to think that he would blow me off just once. For deer, squirrels, other dogs with frisbees/balls/chuck its, barking at him, lunging at him, people yelling, etc. 

No, I can't guarantee anything in my life, I can only stack the chances in my favor and take risks that I think are worth it. 

You can't guarantee that your leash won't fail you while your dog aggressive dog is reacting to another- maybe you shouldn't take her out in public since there is a risk/chance that she could get loose and kill something? Do you see how ridiculous you sound?



squiggles said:


> That's an awfully large demographic you are speaking on behalf of. And it's sad, but the vast majority of people probably do not have the control you have over your dogs. I might be the best driver ever, I'm still not exempt from the rules of the road.


I am speaking about those here, who have already said what I am reiterating- that they do not let their dogs approach other dogs while out and about. 



Effisia said:


> Yes, they might be ruining it for the few of you with perfectly behaved dogs who would never disobey a command. But I should be able to go to my favorite park that has posted leash signs and be able to walk around and enjoy the park without being charged, approached, or otherwise inconvenienced by people breaking the law. Sorry, but you don't just get to say 'I'm inconvenienced by this law, so forget it.' If that's the case, I'm inconvenienced by the laws saying I can't punch people who annoy me in the face. I know that to a lot of off-leash people that may seem like completely different things, but it's actually not. To someone who's scared of dogs or has bad anxiety (like I do) or has leash reactive dogs with them, it really is like a punch to the face.
> 
> Find someplace remote where you run into one person a day. Fine. But don't come to crowded parks with little kids and people everywhere and then just say forget the rest of you, my dog is just fine and I don't give a hoot about your issues.


I'm not saying that at all... What I'm saying is that no one has ever been inconvenienced by my dog while he's off leash and I don't think he ever will, so I take the risk and break the law. I leash up my dog when I see a reactive dog, I call him to me and we get out of the way any time we see a human or other dog/owner pair on or off leash. 



Loki Love said:


> Why? Because you can't control your leashed dog.. or...? Oh wait, you keep assuming that those of us letting our dogs off leash have zero control of our dogs?
> 
> I'm not sure why it's such a difficult concept to grasp that those of us who do it (well, speaking for myself only) use common sense and choose the areas carefully.


This. I'm just.... confused at this point. I will bow out since it's been said so many times.



Shell said:


> No, you don't ALL keep your dogs from greeting other dogs. That's the main complaint!
> 
> Secondly, I also go to areas (with my leashed dog) where this is a law so that (theoretically at least) I don't have to deal with off-leash dogs.
> 
> I don't really even know what word describes someone that expects everyone else to follow the law while taking the convenience of breaking it herself specifically because other people are following the law. The park is not there for your personal convenience so maybe have just an ounce of thought and consideration for the rest of the park users, huh?


We, here, talking about this, on this side of the debate, who I referenced, DO keep our dogs from greeting other dogs. And again, I never said I expect everyone else to follow it. I have met and had great conversations about dogs with people who do the same thing as I do- train our dogs, utilize space when it is available assessing the risk involved, and keep them under control even around other off leash dogs. We thank each other for having well behaved dogs that aren't charging each other while we stand 10-20 yards away with our dogs off leash, ask what kind of training we do, chit chat and move on. I have no problem with people who do this, whatsoever. I made that clear.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> Why? Because you can't control your leashed dog.. or...? Oh wait, you keep assuming that those of us letting our dogs off leash have zero control of our dogs?
> 
> I'm not sure why it's such a difficult concept to grasp that those of us who do it (well, speaking for myself only) use common sense and choose the areas carefully.


Common sense is understanding that not all dogs like other dogs and will act accordingly when approached by dogs they don't know. This will happen even with dogs that are perfectly in control (such as mine by the way...). Are you claiming otherwise? Because if you are, you're not only making a VERY ignorant claim, but insulting a lot of DF members and their dogs.

No one ever said anyone here has zero control over their dogs. But you can't guarantee you have 100% control over them either, well trained or not. They're dogs, and in the end will behave like dogs. Instinct always over rides training.

And while we're on the subject of control, part of control is being able to swallow your pride and understand that YOU are not above the law. It's called SELF control.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> No, I never said I expected others not to. I specifically said in my first post that I have no problem with the other people like me out in the trails and fields that we visit who have their dogs off leash that control them. We play with our own dogs 20 yards from each other with no problem and neither dog approaches the other. That is the way I like it, personally. My dogs don't have an interest in dog parks much anymore as they've matured, so it's just annoying to them to have to ignore all the young dogs that want to playplayplay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one -that you are aware of- has been inconvenienced. That does not mean no one has, let's clear that up.

Second, you said in a couple posts that you prefer to take your dogs off leash in on leash parks because other dogs will be on leash and therefore wont bother your off leash dog. So yes, that translates to you expecting others to follow the law so you can break it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I've been trying to be the proverbial fly-on-the-wall and avoid commenting, but ...

You know, dogs aren't in the best public light as it is nowadays. Children are being mauled by family dogs, dogs are being mauled by other dogs, dogfighting is still rampant in certain areas, etc etc etc. And I'm sure we're all very aware of BSL and the injustice that comes along with it. The main point being that AR people are always looking for each and every angle to advance their cause. Bottom line imo ? if EVERYBODY doesn't do their part to present their dogs as law-abiding AMBASSADORS for the PRIVILEGE of dog ownership, then it's one step closer to having that privilege reduced or, heaven forbid, taken away entirely.

Not to sound unnecessarily alarmist here, but please people ... leash your dogs when required and keep things completely legal. Don't give the AR people any ammunition, no matter how small and insignificant it may seem on the surface. Personally, I enjoy my dogs far too much to jeopardize or compromise that enjoyment for a mere moment of being illegally, and selfishly, leashless. Instead, think for a moment of the greater good.



/ steps down from pulpit.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I have no problem with people who do this, whatsoever. I made that clear.


The point is not at all about YOU being fine with other dogs off-leash (which is kind of contradicted by you specifically choosing on-leash areas for your convenience), it is recognizing that your desire to have your dog off leash does not trump the general right of the public, including the non-dog owning public, to feel secure in on-leash by law areas.



> No, I can't guarantee anything in my life, I can only stack the chances in my favor and take risks that I think are worth it


What if the risks you think are worth it are not the same risks that the other people in the park wish to take? The less people in the park, the less you are imposing your choices on others. The more people in the park, the more people you are taking away their choices from.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Loki Love said:


> Why? Because you can't control your leashed dog.. or...? Oh wait, you keep assuming that those of us letting our dogs off leash have zero control of our dogs?
> 
> I'm not sure why it's such a difficult concept to grasp that those of us who do it (well, speaking for myself only) use common sense and choose the areas carefully.


You really can only speak for yourself there. My dog and I have been chased by an off leash dog that I specifically waited for the owner to hold so we could pass, stated clearly that my dog could not meet her dog, and she still released him and let him chase after us and made no effort to stop him or call him back. You must always assume the lowest common denominator in cases like this and realize that most people are too stupid or entitled or whatever else to handle their off leash dog responsibly.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ireth0 said:


> No one -that you are aware of- has been inconvenienced. That does not mean no one has, let's clear that up.
> 
> Second, you said in a couple posts that you prefer to take your dogs off leash in on leash parks because other dogs will be on leash and therefore wont bother your off leash dog. So yes, that translates to you expecting others to follow the law so you can break it.


I tried going back to find where I said this and I couldn't find it, but maybe I did word it wrong, so I will clarify. I prefer to take my dogs to leash law areas because, *most of the time* the dogs who are off leash there are doing the same thing we are and aren't bothering me or anyone else, so all of the dogs (leashed and unleashed) are not meeting mine and that's the way I like it when I just want to go out and throw some sticks for them and work on some obedience. I don't want another dog in my dog's face that I don't know. We have friend's dogs to be a distraction in that case. 

You're right, I don't KNOW that no one has been inconvenienced, but I like to think I can read people pretty well. Because of the grins, nods, and nice comments made, along with the fact that my dog has never approached another dog or human off leash in a leash law area, I have reason to believe that I have not inconvenienced anyone. We do not go to places where it is unreasonable to see other dogs, so the difference between the dog having something attached to his collar or not does not seem to bother people who walk/play/fish/boat there. 



Shell said:


> What if the risks you think are worth it are not the same risks that the other people in the park wish to take? The less people in the park, the less you are imposing your choices on others. The more people in the park, the more people you are taking away their choices from.


Unfortunately, the risks I take with my dogs and my life are never going to mesh with EVERYONE else's that we encounter. We saw a poodle on our hike the other day, about 40 yards down the path, so we stepped off the path and I put Recon in a sit stay and popped him a treat. I can't remember if I leashed him while we were waiting at this point, or not. Like I said, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. The poodle was off leash and the owner called him into heel position while he started to walk by. He nodded at us, said, he's friendly while nodding at his dog, as if he were implying that he wanted our dogs to meet. I told him thank you for letting me know, mine was as well, but we weren't interested in playing at this time. He nodded and kept going. That guy felt like taking even more of a risk than I am comfortable with, and our risks did not match up, even though we were both taking similar risks otherwise. There are plenty of anecdotes we could add like this that revolve around legal interactions, as well. It's life. I'm not going to try to please everyone and worry about what everyone else thinks of what I'm doing. I take the steps to make sure that I'm not bothering anyone, and have no reason to think I am, because I don't want to give people a reason to complain- because I like doing what we do and so does my dog. 

Someone also mentioned being an ambassador for dog owners, etc. etc. It's kind of amazing how a well-behaved, off leash dog, impacts people's opinions as well. I think that goes just as far as a well-behaved on leash dog, if not further.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> You can't guarantee that your leash won't fail you while your dog aggressive dog is reacting to another- maybe you shouldn't take her out in public since there is a risk/chance that she could get loose and kill something? Do you see how ridiculous you sound?


Do _you_ realize how ridiculous it is to compare someone who's following the law but has an equipment failure (which happens rarely) to someone who's deliberately breaking the law every day? 

All of these hypothetical statements are useless, anyway. The fact is, many people do not like to see loose dogs in areas with leash laws. Whether they approach you or not, I _guarantee_ these people exist. Either they don't want to get close enough to talk, they're avoiding the park until off-hours to minimize the risk of loose dogs, or they've stopped even using that park because of loose dogs. 

When I lived in Toronto for the past year, I was in one of the neighborhoods with the highest dog population (3,186 dogs in my neighborhood and the two bordering it/bordering High Park). I would see tons of dogs every day. I would see multiple off-leash dogs every day. I'd say about 30% of them were NOT under control. Many of them ran up to mine, but backed off when mine growled at them and I yelled at them to leave. A few tried to attack my dogs. A few ran through the zoo, harassing the zoo animals. A few got lost (I spoke to the owners as they were searching the park), including a border collie and a little black cocker spaniel. I watched a loose Siberian husky with no owner anywhere in sight almost get hit by three different cars (my friends and I could not catch her). So maybe all of you here at DF have wonderful dogs with 100% recall, but if I see you out in public, I have no way of knowing if your loose dog is one of the good ones, and I will change course to avoid you, and I will be grouchy if your dog bounds at mine while you yell, "It's okay! he's friendly!," and I will kick the hell out of your dog if it attacks mine.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

There are already enough parks that don't allow dogs, which is sad. why would you make it worse by letting your dog off the leash in a leash area? 

Yes it would be fun to have your good dog off leash where ever you want, but that is not reality. Life is not fair, you just have to get over it and follow the law.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

squiggles said:


> I'm gonna be all sorts of redundant here and say 'leash up, it's the law'.
> 
> Anyone who wants to go off leashin a certain area is more than welcome to lobby their municipality for redesignation. Until then, follow the law!
> Long winded redundant rant over


And that is precisely the problem. Your municipality will always revert to the Most Restrictive to protect the 1 in a 100 that have a problem or a potential problem.
It easier for them, legislation-wise to have the most restrictive laws on the books... to have more fines and penalties to impose.
And telling Us to go petition the Legislature is not going to get Us anywhere.
Afterall, we are up against, people's feelings of Safety!
(personally I feel alot safer with my dog off leash. she establishes a perimeter, and makes it clear to anyone lurking in the bushes, that she is present.)..

I am not doing this to inconvenience you, it is for my dog!
I have a very high energy dog, whose idea of Fetch, is me standing on that beach in the picture of my Avatar,
throwing the ball as high up the cliffs as possible, she runs threw sand uphill to do the fetch...
Walking onleash is just not going to cut it for her, and I am not always going to be driving out to the beach on my 45 min break to give her a few walkies, when there is an empty park, with back trails and woods, 2 blocks from my house.
Do people understand? We are dog owners too, and care deeply about our dog's and their needs and their happiness as well.
I leash up or physically restrain my dog at my side when I see another dog and even if its off leash, I ask the owner if they want them to meet before they greet each other.
We are not doing this just to piss off people (and I can see there is plenty of that going around)...

And I am not advocating changing the law in busy high traffic areas that it would be silly to have dogs bounding about. But these are urban parks. (Do people understand, even though its urban it feels like woods, we have coyote denning in the heart of SF?)... There will be some mixed use.
There are plenty of penalties for owners with out of control dogs (ie, the fine for a dog leaving feces out, is twice as high for a human pooping in the park)...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I was able to give Bae ample exercise even though I did not have a fenced in yard, he couldn't play at a dog park because the fences were too low/too many dogs, I couldn't pay for doggy daycare/play groups everyday, and he couldn't be off leash safely. I managed and I figure so can you. :| "My dog is high energy!" Isn't a very good excuse, IMHO. 

Let's just admit that illegal off leash time is convenient, easy, and y'all don't give a crap about how other people feel as long as your dogs mind their own business. Basically, what you've all been saying is "It might be illegal and the rest of you might not like it but I don't care. "

P.S. Going through legislation is literally the only way anything gets done. It's a long hard road but it's worth it. If you want to take your dog off leash in your park legally, your nose has to be to the grind stone.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> You're right, I don't KNOW that no one has been inconvenienced, but I like to think I can read people pretty well. Because of the grins, nods, and nice comments made, along with the fact that my dog has never approached another dog or human off leash in a leash law area, I have reason to believe that I have not inconvenienced anyone.


I doubt you can actually have reason to believe you have not inconvenienced anyone. Why? Because _many_ people who are upset with seeing dogs off-leash in an relatively busy park ("relatively busy" is based your description of the areas where you are taking the dogs off leash) are not going to come anywhere near you in order to complain, are going to avoid the park entirely because people are improperly using it, are avoiding confrontation by coming at unusual times of day or in bad weather, may not speak fluent English, etc.

Again, what is it about your desire to have your dog off-leash in a well-used public on-leash area that trumps the general public's right to feel confident in their location only having on-leash dogs? 



> Unfortunately, the risks I take with my dogs and my life are never going to mesh with EVERYONE else's that we encounter.


It isn't about meshing with "everyone's" risk comfort level, it is about recognizing that there are societal requirements and expectations in a public area like a park. It is not just about other dog owners, reactive dogs, or how safe your dogs are. it is saying that a SMALL burden of putting a leash on your dogs (or at minimum, seeking out very quiet and empty parks with far fewer people than the parks you are describing) is a fair trade for the ability of the general public to share space with multiple types of users and to maximize the enjoyment of EVERYONE'S use of the park. 
It is like a speed limit for bicyclists in urban parks. It may be a safe track to go 15 mph on if there are no pedestrians but there is a 10 mph speed limit on a shared use path because the small burden on the bikers to lower their speed is to the benefit of the overall group of people using the park.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

JMHO on this---

One of my dogs is very friendly. To everybody. The other one is selectively friendly, and in their old age, has become less and less outgoing and more reserved. Due to this, I keep mine on lead, even where other people don't. 

I typically keep my mouth shut because honestly I just like the company of my dogs sometimes and have no desire to speak with someone, BUT if someone's dog is in an area that requires leashes AND their dog bothers my dogs THEN they get an earful. 

I make sure that I am sufficiently unpleasant for them to reconsider whether they leash their dog in the future.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> And that is precisely the problem. Your municipality will always revert to the Most Restrictive to protect the 1 in a 100 that have a problem or a potential problem.
> It easier for them, legislation-wise to have the most restrictive laws on the books... to have more fines and penalties to impose.


Firstly, this is a very broad assumption to make. Has anyone tried to petition the local government to get the laws changed? Or is it simply a case of no one has bothered because they expect it will fail? Because if that is the case, then it HAS already failed... its not possible to succeed at something that isn't even attempted. It is easy to say "well, it wouldn't work anyway" and not try at all... but that doesn't help anything, nor does it get anything accomplished.



> Do people understand? We are dog owners too, and care deeply about our dog's and their needs and their happiness as well.
> I leash up or physically restrain my dog at my side when I see another dog and even if its off leash, I ask the owner if they want them to meet before they greet each other.
> We are not doing this just to piss off people (and I can see there is plenty of that going around)...


Everyone here is a dog owner. The difference is that some of us recognize that being off-leash is not a necessity for the survival (or even happiness) of most dogs; it is almost exclusively for the convenience/enjoyment of owners. (I am NOT saying that dogs do not enjoy being off-leash, but that it is not _necessary _for them to be happy). There have been plenty of creative suggestions on how to exercise a high energy dog without being off leash, and simply saying "I'm just not going to do X to exercise my dog without breaking a leash law because I don't want to" is not a valid reason for breaking a leash law!

Just because someone is not intentionally trying to inconvenience someone else does not justify it, and is no different than what RabbleFox said:



RabbleFox said:


> Basically, what you've all been saying is "It might be illegal and the rest of you might not like it but I don't care. "


The fact that other people are being inconvenienced, and even worse, the perpetrator is AWARE of it, just makes them inconsiderate and self-centered. Intention does not matter - the outcome is what matters. To the person being inconvenienced, there is no difference between whether or not you _intended_ to inconvenience them. The fact of the matter is there are people that feel they cannot use areas that they have a right to use because other people are using the area illegally and without consideration of anyone but themselves.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I live in a small village. I have no fenced yard and all the parks here do not allow dogs. If I want my dog to be off lead I have to drive almost an hour to a dog park. If I don't want to drive that far, I take some long walks! Having a high energy dog is no excuse! ! !


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> I've been trying to be the proverbial fly-on-the-wall and avoid commenting, but ...
> 
> You know, dogs aren't in the best public light as it is nowadays. Children are being mauled by family dogs, dogs are being mauled by other dogs, dogfighting is still rampant in certain areas, etc etc etc. And I'm sure we're all very aware of BSL and the injustice that comes along with it. The main point being that AR people are always looking for each and every angle to advance their cause. Bottom line imo ? if EVERYBODY doesn't do their part to present their dogs as law-abiding AMBASSADORS for the PRIVILEGE of dog ownership, then it's one step closer to having that privilege reduced or, heaven forbid, taken away entirely.
> 
> ...


Step back up. I agree.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I know I said I was leaving this thread alone.... Always a mistake!

But, I do want to respond to these claims of selfishness. If a whole community has functioned happily and safely for many years offlead (no complaints, citations or incidents) this is well known and _you_ want everyone to leash up for the benefit of your own dog to the detriment of everyone else's... Well, I'm not so convinced who's being selfish here. Some dogs are reactive and DA, and its not a bad thing or their fault. But they are the minority and I don't see why the majority should give up a very small space in a very large city carved out for their use. I am against dogs unleashed on sidewalks or paths and many parks. Of course DA dogs should have safe spaces to walk. But honestly, I don't think they need the whole city or the 99.9% of it rated that way now. 

There is a responsibility to owning a reactive or aggressive dog and that probably means avoiding places you know function as offleash parks. I normally wouldn't tell other people what their responsibilities are for *their* dogs but since the other case has been presented so freely and so repeatedly I think its only fair. It is quite selfish to expect a whole community to give up a safe and happy outlet so a very small minority can use it in addition to the other resources.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

When I say that the eastern trails in High Park are off-leash trails, I actually mean that a few of them are designated as off-leash, including one main road (no cars allowed except for maintenance vehicles), but that dog owners consider the entire big eastern trail system to be off-leash trails. You can reasonably expect to run into many off-leash dogs on all of the trails over there, even the ones marked as leash-only. For that reason, I avoided that side of the park. My issue was with people using the rest of the park, including the zoo and the western (entirely leash-required) trails, as an off-leash area. That was a 400-acre park that lots of dog owners decided should be entirely off-leash. I am not about to avoid an entire gorgeous, wonderful park because of those jerks.

I think the distinction, for ME, is: If dog owners have kind of unofficially taken over a certain area of a park, that's one thing. That annoys me a bit, but it's easy to avoid. My issue is when they decide that an entire park is a free-for-all off-leash area. It is not fair in the least to suggest that people with reactive dogs (and there are SO MANY MORE of us that you realize) avoid entire huge parks _that have leash laws in place_.

Here is an example of another Toronto park that many people in my (leash-required) dog-walking group lived near and had to avoid because way too many people were letting their dogs off-leash everywhere in the park. It is inconsiderate and it is not fair.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> When I say that the eastern trails in High Park are off-leash trails, I actually mean that a few of them are designated as off-leash, including one main road (no cars allowed except for maintenance vehicles), but that dog owners consider the entire big eastern trail system to be off-leash trails. You can reasonably expect to run into many off-leash dogs on all of the trails over there, even the ones marked as leash-only. For that reason, I avoided that side of the park. My issue was with people using the rest of the park, including the zoo and the western (entirely leash-required) trails, as an off-leash area. That was a 400-acre park that lots of dog owners decided should be entirely off-leash. I am not about to avoid an entire gorgeous, wonderful park because of those jerks.
> 
> I think the distinction, for ME, is: If dog owners have kind of unofficially taken over a certain area of a park, that's one thing. That annoys me a bit, but it's easy to avoid. My issue is when they decide that an entire park is a free-for-all off-leash area. It is not fair in the least to suggest that people with reactive dogs (and there are SO MANY MORE of us that you realize) avoid entire huge parks _that have leash laws in place_.
> 
> Here is an example of another Toronto park that many people in my (leash-required) dog-walking group lived near and had to avoid because way too many people were letting their dogs off-leash everywhere in the park. It is inconsiderate and it is not fair.


I agree with you there. A whole half the park is rated offlead, the facilities to do it safely and legally are *right there*. There's not really any excuse to commandeer an area when one is already offered. We don't go to High Park often because its a fair distance but I think its a good example of both facilities coexisting, neither group needs the whole park and IMO should respect the needs of users of the other half. Also, that Weim that was offleash is doubly in the wrong because, IMO any dog that is known to be aggressive or have high prey drive directed at other dogs shouldn't be off lead *anywhere* that isn't secure - legal or not.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

aiw said:


> I know I said I was leaving this thread alone.... Always a mistake!
> 
> But, I do want to respond to these claims of selfishness. If a whole community has functioned happily and safely for many years offlead (no complaints, citations or incidents) this is well known and _you_ want everyone to leash up for the benefit of your own dog to the detriment of everyone else's... Well, I'm not so convinced who's being selfish here. Some dogs are reactive and DA, and its not a bad thing or their fault. But they are the minority and I don't see why the majority should give up a very small space in a very large city carved out for their use. I am against dogs unleashed on sidewalks or paths and many parks. Of course DA dogs should have safe spaces to walk. But honestly, I don't think they need the whole city or the 99.9% of it rated that way now.
> 
> There is a responsibility to owning a reactive or aggressive dog and that probably means avoiding places you know function as offleash parks. I normally wouldn't tell other people what their responsibilities are for *their* dogs but since the other case has been presented so freely and so repeatedly I think its only fair. It is quite selfish to expect a whole community to give up a safe and happy outlet so a very small minority can use it in addition to the other resources.


I feel like then it would be "easy" to petition to your city council to make that area officially an off leash area. Get everyone who participates to sign a petition, present the petition, have nay-Sayers and pro-off leaders speak, the city approves the area, pays for a $50 "off leash dog area" sign, and done. "Easy" and legal. If everyone wants it to happen, then it will.

Majority rules. It sounds like no one in your area has a beef with the off leashy-ness but presenting it to city council will give anyone with fears a forum to speak out. From what it sounds like, you off leaders will have an easy time of convincing the city since you seem to think that the majority of the town enjoy the unofficial off leash space.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Toronto is actually doing something along those lines now: http://www.beachmetro.com/2013/05/28/city-sniffs-leash-laws-change/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...sh-proposal-tabled-in-toronto/article5179034/

So yes, it can be done.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

I break the leash laws regularly. I live in a suburban area that has walking paths in ravine areas and hydro-electric corridors. There is also an extensive trail system (bruce trail) along the Niagara escarpment and conservation areas that are more rural but also are subject to leash laws.

It is a privilege for my dog to wander around and sniff what he likes. I think that is is more mentally stimulating for him when he gets a chance to do this. As with all privileges, there are rules. Whenever I see anyone else, I call my dog. He will either heel next to me or lie down or I will simply leash him if the path gets too busy. If someone wants to meet him then I will release him again. Most times I wait until the person has passed and then release him. I make the assumption that everyone is afraid of dogs and that other dogs are reactive and control my dog accordingly. He only gets to interact with another person or dog when invited to do so and I have released him.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

gsdhunter said:


> I live in a small village. I have no fenced yard and all the parks here do not allow dogs. If I want my dog to be off lead I have to drive almost an hour to a dog park. If I don't want to drive that far, I take some long walks! Having a high energy dog is no excuse! ! !


I have a high energy dog, get off work at MIDNIGHT and often walk her then. ITS AN EMPTY , WOODED off trails WALK. I am harming NO ONE and me and the dog are taking the risks.

The legislation needs to change, but it never will (nose to the grindstone? There are some seriously anal, legislation minded folks in Dogs Run Free the SF off leash dog walkers group, and they have been working to affect change for the whole 20 years I have been aware of the situation...) aint never gonna happen.
And we had reactive dogs. 
your dogs are stuck on a leash anyways, ours can be Off. And recalled for your preception of safety and enjoyment of the parks.

"I think the distinction, for ME, is: If dog owners have kind of unofficially taken over a certain area of a park, that's one thing. That annoys me a bit, but it's easy to avoid. My issue is when they decide that an entire park is a free-for-all off-leash area. It is not fair in the least to suggest that people with reactive dogs (and there are SO MANY MORE of us that you realize) avoid entire huge parks that have leash laws in place."

Crantastic I agree completely that is perfectly reasonable...
And that is what I am going for here, people being as responsible as they can and working together and being reasonable....
(Remember the more useage a Park has, the less likely elements contributing to crime, like drug dealing, robbery, and assault, are likely to happen...)....


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> feel like then it would be "easy" to petition to your city council to make that area officially an off leash area. Get everyone who participates to sign a petition, present the petition, have nay-Sayers and pro-off leaders speak, the city approves the area, pays for a $50 "off leash dog area" sign, and done. "Easy" and legal. If everyone wants it to happen, then it will.


ya cuz that's totally the way government works lol. perhaps my area is just stupid and corrupt, but I doubt it. my city doesn't give a damn what the people want, we just had a recent case, needed 20,000 signatures on a petition to get what we wanted...we got 100,000. so the city clerk tossed 40,000 calling them invalid and literally just tossed another 50,000 signatures with NO explanation, and said "sorry, you don't have enough support, too bad." this naturally caused a MASSIVE uproar, and the city relented and allowed a vote, during which the city plastered the city, papers, airwaves and TV signals with a "vote no" campaign. yup totally "easy" to just get what you want with enough support. if the city doesn't want it, then good friggen luck.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> When I say that the eastern trails in High Park are off-leash trails, I actually mean that a few of them are designated as off-leash, including one main road (no cars allowed except for maintenance vehicles), but that dog owners consider the entire big eastern trail system to be off-leash trails. You can reasonably expect to run into many off-leash dogs on all of the trails over there, even the ones marked as leash-only. For that reason, I avoided that side of the park. My issue was with people using the rest of the park, including the zoo and the western (entirely leash-required) trails, as an off-leash area. That was a 400-acre park that lots of dog owners decided should be entirely off-leash. I am not about to avoid an entire gorgeous, wonderful park because of those jerks.
> 
> I think the distinction, for ME, is: If dog owners have kind of unofficially taken over a certain area of a park, that's one thing. That annoys me a bit, but it's easy to avoid. My issue is when they decide that an entire park is a free-for-all off-leash area. It is not fair in the least to suggest that people with reactive dogs (and there are SO MANY MORE of us that you realize) avoid entire huge parks _that have leash laws in place_.
> 
> Here is an example of another Toronto park that many people in my (leash-required) dog-walking group lived near and had to avoid because way too many people were letting their dogs off-leash everywhere in the park. It is inconsiderate and it is not fair.


High Park is a place where I only use the leash free area with Eppy. The leash free area is huge! A big area with trees and open spaces for the dogs to run around in and even a trail that creates a big loop. I used the trail part for training Eppy how to behave off lead when I am hiking in other places. My signature picture was taken there during one of those sessions. There really is no need to have a dog off lead in the rest of the park.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Miss Bugs said:


> ya cuz that's totally the way government works lol. perhaps my area is just stupid and corrupt, but I doubt it. my city doesn't give a damn what the people want, we just had a recent case, needed 20,000 signatures on a petition to get what we wanted...we got 100,000. so the city clerk tossed 40,000 calling them invalid and literally just tossed another 50,000 signatures with NO explanation, and said "sorry, you don't have enough support, too bad." this naturally caused a MASSIVE uproar, and the city relented and allowed a vote, during which the city plastered the city, papers, airwaves and TV signals with a "vote no" campaign. yup totally "easy" to just get what you want with enough support. if the city doesn't want it, then good friggen luck.


x2. SF has way too much tourist trade to risk...If only the tourists knew about the specific kinds of horrific violent crime that happen in some of our parks....
I was saved only b/c I had watched an episode of Americas Most Wanted the week before- that detailed in excruciating detail, what had happened to the 2 people walking their on leash dogs when they were attacked. The show said specifically to DROP the leash and run... that leashed dog is only holding you back, and distracting you from your ability to percieve danger....
It was what was running through my mind when the guy jumped me (aside from Waaahhhh you running at ME?! I could take you, the NERVE, then my better judgement took over.....and here I am today to argue)....

Actually to all (and this about peoples OPINIONS on the off leash thing, right?)... We ended up moving our child, and pet out of the City (sad really) and brought fenced acreage in the county to avoid all this.
Not everyone has that option....


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Loki Love said:


> You're assuming that I won't see or hear you first or at the same time? It's never once happened in the past. I use common sense and keep my eyes and ears open when we take Loki off leash. The one park we go to - if I can tell we are going to run into various people due to the number of cars we see in the parking lot - he stays on leash. If the place is looking deserted, he goes off leash and again, if I hear/see other people coming (regardless if they have a dog or not) - he goes back on leash. Knock wood - never had a problem yet.
> 
> I know what it's like to have a reactive dog and I also know that for most, it doesn't matter if that other dog is on or off leash anyway. (In my experience, anyway).
> 
> ...


No, I am not assuming that you didn't see or hear us at the same time, because, as I said, it doesn't matter if you see us at the same time, my reactive dog is probably already aware that you are there and is already anxious.
And, my reactive dog is much better than he was. In the past he would be upset to see ANY dog. Now he is fine, as long as he knows the other dog is 'contained.'

Either way, if I AM making an assumption that you won't leash up your dog in time, then you are making an equal assumption, that is that there aren't twice as many people out there that are NOT as responsible and won't be able to get control of their dog in time.

That's the bottom line, for me. Tons of folks on here ARE responsible and probably are ok with their dogs being off leash, meaning that they can gain and keep control, in order to keep their off leash dog away from people and other dogs that may be anxious. BUT, hey, we are here because we ARE responsible or at least because we want to be. What about all the people who are not dogforum folks who haven't a clue.

The OP asked our opinion on breaking leash laws. He/she didn't ask our opinion on only RESPONSIBLE people breaking leash laws. I gave my opinion on how we (my reactive dog and I) are affecting by people breaking leash laws, not limiting it to RESPONSIBLE folks who only break the leash laws when they deem it safe.

And, common sense isn't all that common anymore, that's part of the problem.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Having 5 small dogs, including a little white ball of bouncy fluff, that could easily be killed by an off leash bigger dog, I don't care how reliable you _think_ your dog is, if it is an on-leash area, I expect to see dogs on leash. I can't ever feel comfortable taking all of my dogs out at the same time because I know I couldn't protect them all should an off leash dog attack. How many times have we heard...."well he has always been so friendly before......?" NO dog should be expected to be 100% reliable, 100% of the time, no matter how well trained.



> And, common sense isn't all that common anymore, that's part of the problem.


Ain't that the truth!


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> I feel like then it would be "easy" to petition to your city council to make that area officially an off leash area. Get everyone who participates to sign a petition, present the petition, have nay-Sayers and pro-off leaders speak, the city approves the area, pays for a $50 "off leash dog area" sign, and done. "Easy" and legal. If everyone wants it to happen, then it will.
> 
> Majority rules. It sounds like no one in your area has a beef with the off leashy-ness but presenting it to city council will give anyone with fears a forum to speak out. From what it sounds like, you off leaders will have an easy time of convincing the city since you seem to think that the majority of the town enjoy the unofficial off leash space.





Miss Bugs said:


> ya cuz that's totally the way government works lol. perhaps my area is just stupid and corrupt, but I doubt it. my city doesn't give a damn what the people want, we just had a recent case, needed 20,000 signatures on a petition to get what we wanted...we got 100,000. so the city clerk tossed 40,000 calling them invalid and literally just tossed another 50,000 signatures with NO explanation, and said "sorry, you don't have enough support, too bad." this naturally caused a MASSIVE uproar, and the city relented and allowed a vote, during which the city plastered the city, papers, airwaves and TV signals with a "vote no" campaign. yup totally "easy" to just get what you want with enough support. if the city doesn't want it, then good friggen luck.





BernerMax said:


> x2. SF has way too much tourist trade to risk...If only the tourists knew about the specific kinds of horrific violent crime that happen in some of our parks....
> I was saved only b/c I had watched an episode of Americas Most Wanted the week before- that detailed in excruciating detail, what had happened to the 2 people walking their on leash dogs when they were attacked. The show said specifically to DROP the leash and run... that leashed dog is only holding you back, and distracting you from your ability to percieve danger....
> It was what was running through my mind when the guy jumped me (aside from Waaahhhh you running at ME?! I could take you, the NERVE, then my better judgement took over.....and here I am today to argue)....
> 
> ...


X3 My area has a lovely off leash area of 63 acres within a larger urban park of 1800 acres. There is a trail known as the South Shore trial that runs through the off leash area. This trail is basically unused, I think I have seen 1 non-dog person walking this trail in the 2 years I have used this park 3 times a week. Regular dog park users routinely use this trail as off lash, sort of commandeering if you will. A few years back there was a petition circulated to expand the dog park to include a portion of this trail. The area to be included is almost entirely forested and completely unused by anybody ever, since there are zero trails besides the portion of the South Shore trail cutting through it. A group had raised the signatures, funds and manpower to do an expansion at no cost to the city or county. The petition garnered near unanimous support from citizens, businesses and community leaders for expansion and yet, when it went to committee for approval, it was denied. One guy refused to approve and blocked the whole initiative. A committee member who admittedly NEVER used the park, had not ever even stepped foot there. His reasoning? On the off chance that he _might_ someday want to go there he didn't want to smell dog poop. We are talking maybe 150 out of nearly 1800 acres.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know about your parks or preserves but where I live, rangers are constantly out on the trails. Heck, I even have gotten stopped on horseback to have my trail tags checked and verified. The rangers use bikes, ATVs or hang out in the parking lots to make sure the rules are obeyed. 

$150 fine for the first offense too much money for my tight budget.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I think the distinction, for ME, is: If dog owners have kind of unofficially taken over a certain area of a park, that's one thing. That annoys me a bit, but it's easy to avoid. My issue is when they decide that an entire park is a free-for-all off-leash area. It is not fair in the least to suggest that people with reactive dogs (and there are SO MANY MORE of us that you realize) avoid entire huge parks _that have leash laws in place_.


Agree. Most of the "claims of selfishness" are for the people who intentionally go to on-leash areas, because they are on-leash, so their dogs can run around off-leash without being harassed by other dogs.

There was also the good point about people having their dogs off-leash responsibly. Nearly all of the people on this forum are responsible dog owners, or are at least trying (everyone makes mistakes). However, the people on this forum are a very small selection of dog owners. How many people on this forum feed Purina or Pedigree? And yet, those are two of the most sold dog foods on the planet... The majority of us are not average dog owners. The problem is, when other less responsible owners, whose dogs are NOT in control like the dogs belonging to members on this forum, see dogs off-leash in on-leash areas, it simply reinforces that dogs being off-leash in on-leash areas is fine, if they're doing it, I can do it, what could possibly happen.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I have no qualms with people who go to designated off leash areas in town, or to areas outside city limits. But I think it's unfair and very selfish to expect all dog owners and people in general to have to deal with an off leash dog in areas where leashes are required, because you don't feel like doing it. Trained or not, bottom line is you and your dog are not above the law.


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## London's owner (Sep 7, 2013)

RCloud said:


> I have no qualms with people who go to designated off leash areas in town, or to areas outside city limits. But I think it's unfair and very selfish to expect all dog owners and people in general to have to deal with an off leash dog in areas where leashes are required, because you don't feel like doing it. Trained or not, bottom line is you and your dog are not above the law.


THIS. I should not have to constantly be on the lookout for off-leash dogs, trained or otherwise, in an on-leash area. Even if they are well-behaved with great recall, you are still breaking the law.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

London's owner said:


> THIS. I should not have to constantly be on the lookout for off-leash dogs, trained or otherwise, in an on-leash area. Even if they are well-behaved with great recall,_ you are still breaking the law_.


There it is. Thank you.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

London's owner said:


> THIS. I should not have to constantly be on the lookout for off-leash dogs, trained or otherwise, in an on-leash area. Even if they are well-behaved with great recall, you are still breaking the law.


DING DING DING!! We have a winner, folks!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shell said:


> this is it for me.
> 
> There are parks that I have to avoid with my dogs, including my own who is NOT leash reactive but who I don't want to put at risk from an encounter with a loose dog, that are clearly posted as on-leash parks and yet have become de facto off leash parks. People who are a bit scared of dogs or who aren't as physically strong and could be injured by a loose dog also have to avoid those parks. Some people with small kids avoid those parks so their kids aren't knocked over or scared by a dog running "at" them (even if the dog isn't running at them, it can seem like it to a 2 year old)
> Which is no fun at all. I pay taxes to the city to support beautiful parks some of which, for all practical purposes, I cannot use because people want to have their dogs off-leash.
> ...


I use a long line for my dogs because they tend to wonder too far for my liking, or in heavily wooded or burr prone areas I will use a flexi. Izze was the only dog I trusted off leash in wooded areas and used to take her trail riding with me been though "technically" it wasn't allowed because they were also walking trails ... But a lot of questionable behavior happened in those trails so I felt safer taking her ... ESP when I rode by myself because I know she would protect my horse (band anyone who was riding with me) with her life if it came to that. 

It was nice because she wouldn't let anyone approach the horses.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

troglodytezzz said:


> I break the leash laws regularly. I live in a suburban area that has walking paths in ravine areas and hydro-electric corridors. There is also an extensive trail system (bruce trail) along the Niagara escarpment and conservation areas that are more rural but also are subject to leash laws.


Just an fyi .. the BTC requires that all dogs be on leash at all times, and that hikers (and dogs) stay strictly ON the trails. I believe the acceptable area has technically been designated as a 3' margin to either side of the actual trail itself.

Here's part of the reason why. Over 50% of the Bruce Trail transverses 'private' property, whether it be homeowner's land or the land of businesses such as Hydro One. Hydro One still retains their right to TRAP animals ANYWHERE on their own property, primarily so that these animals (beavers, groundhogs, muskrats etc) cannot undermine the embankments of the watercourses and such, which would result in untold damage and costly re-construction for the utility company on an on-going basis. And, I believe their 'trap of choice' is the conibear type. Ouch.

So yeah. Big shocker, I know, that this trapping could be allowed to take place in such close proximity of the public. The largely UNAWARE public. At least it was to me when I discovered set traps within a few feet of the trail while out walking my dogs one day. At first I thought it might have been poachers or something, but after a few phonecalls to officials I realized it was best to either abide by the rules for good reason, or find an alternative location without such a great risk.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

London's owner said:


> THIS. I should not have to constantly be on the lookout for off-leash dogs, trained or otherwise, in an on-leash area. Even if they are well-behaved with great recall, you are still breaking the law.


Agree completely. I don't care who you are, obey the law. If your dogs must be off leash, find a dog park to go to or fence in your yard. I'm really surprised at the number of people who think it's ok. If one of your dogs is off leash and something bad happens, I hope it's to your dog & not someone else's.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

InkedMarie said:


> Agree completely. I don't care who you are, obey the law. If your dogs must be off leash, find a dog park to go to or fence in your yard. I'm really surprised at the number of people who think it's ok.


I'm honestly surprised at how many people seem to think you are a horrible, selfish, irresponsible owner for letting your dog off leash in a secluded field in the park. Or that training dogs off leash is some horrible danger.

All I can guess is it's a community/location difference because letting your dogs off in empty fields is very common around here and in TX too. Particularly the gundog crowd- I see people training working upland and water dogs all the time. Never seen one cause a problem at all.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I'm honestly surprised at how many people seem to think you are a horrible, selfish, irresponsible owner for letting your dog off leash in a secluded field in the park. Or that training dogs off leash is some horrible danger.
> 
> All I can guess is it's a community/location difference because letting your dogs off in empty fields is very common around here and in TX too. Particularly the gundog crowd- I see people training working upland and water dogs all the time. Never seen one cause a problem at all.


Yeah. I'm going to go with 'location differences'. I mean, honestly, I've encountered < 5 people and dogs in 3 years in the few years we've been going to the (off leash legal/no leash law) secluded places we use. The places it's actually illegal to be off leash? Never. Not once. Not a person, not a dog, nothing. In years. 

Who am I presenting a danger to?

I mean, yeah, I get that I'm not an average dog owner, and I get that I'm breaking the law, but I'm really, really, seriously not taking risks with other people's dogs or safety. Because no one's there.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I'm honestly surprised at how many people seem to think you are a horrible, selfish, irresponsible owner for letting your dog off leash in a secluded field in the park. Or that training dogs off leash is some horrible danger.
> 
> All I can guess is it's a community/location difference because letting your dogs off in empty fields is very common around here and in TX too. Particularly the gundog crowd- I see people training working upland and water dogs all the time. Never seen one cause a problem at all.


I wonder sometimes if this is a population density thing, too. Here in the midwest, mountain and west coast regions. we tend to have quite a bit of space per person. I'm reading about people's parks that are a few hundred acres at most and realizing how lucky I am to have a half dozen or more parks within an hour or so that are all pushing 2000 acres. Where you can literally hike for an entire day without encountering another soul right in the heart of the city in one particular park. It just seems that areas with enough space to lose yourself tend to be more permissive of "selfishly" flouting the laws.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> Well at least you all know the risks involved. I still think it's extremely wrong to disobey any law as it's there for your and your dog's protection. Also I'm sorry but the most well obedient dog will one day disobey you; I've seen it happen first hand. There's a GSD that lives near us, very obedient, would never disobey it's owner. Well one day it did, ran right up to us disregarding what the owner was calling out. Thankfully the dog was friendly. My grandmother's dog, again very obedient, got out the door and didn't listen as he ran into the street. Thankfully it wasn't a busy road.
> Another Chow disobeyed its owner to run after a deer. I really hope the dog was found. Things happen and I hope you understand that's one of the risks you're taking. Sorry I'm not putting my dog's life in danger.
> 
> I'm going to get strong opinions on my strong opinion above, but that's my two cents. I hope I didn't come off as harsh or blaming you for anything because that wasn't my intent.


Yes but you don't have high energy working dogs. For my dogs, a walkie on leash would be well and good for buddy ... But it wouldn't work for Josefina. She can't be walked off leash in a trail like setting ... But in a park or soccer field where I can use my chuck it ... She would have a miserable existence if I didn't break leash laws with her. 

Also all those examples you used, the one who "paid the price" was the dog and it's owner, no one else was harmed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Also all those examples you used, the one who "paid the price" was the dog and it's owner, no one else was harmed.


This is the bottom line for me: I go out of my way to use my property, private property with permission, off-leash legal areas, or areas that are so remote and wild that if my dog blows off a command they are not a danger to anyone else - either driver, walker, home owner, or dog and their owner. The dogs bolt and they are at danger of being lot forever, starving in the woods, or being eaten by a bear. They are not at risk of causing a car accident (which is why neither of those examples Coton mentioned apply as not putting anyone else at risk!), rushing another dog who is or is not reactive, frightening a person, or stopping anyone else from being hurt. 

If your dog can run into the street? You're putting someone at risk. 
If there are other dogs around? You're putting someone at risk. 
If there are PEOPLE around? You're putting someone at risk. 
If there are houses that are not your own around? You are putting someone else at risk.

And asking someone else to be at risk for your dog's benefit is wrong.

I will, however, merrily put my OWN dogs at risk for THEIR benefit. 

And that is my line in the sand.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

CptJack said:


> This is the bottom line for me: I go out of my way to use my property, private property with permission, off-leash legal areas, or areas that are so remote and wild that if my dog blows off a command they are not a danger to anyone else - either driver, walker, home owner, or dog and their owner. The dogs bolt and they are at danger of being lot forever, starving in the woods, or being eaten by a bear. They are not at risk of causing a car accident (which is why neither of those examples Coton mentioned apply as not putting anyone else at risk!), rushing another dog who is or is not reactive, frightening a person, or stopping anyone else from being hurt.
> 
> If your dog can run into the street? You're putting someone at risk.
> If there are other dogs around? You're putting someone at risk.
> ...


And that's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. As I mentioned before, I let my own dogs off leash, but it's always in areas that are either private owned land that we've been given permission to use, or way out in the desert where you're unlikely to see other people walking.... and if you do (which has never happened, and I doubt it ever will, but it's totally possible it could someday), the area is so vast, you can see them coming from a very long ways away (miles). It's people who let them off leash in urban areas where other people hang out and walk their own dogs, such as public parks, walking paths, and sidewalks that grates my nerves.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I think population density might be and issue here, too. There's a HUGE difference, at least in my mind, between letting your dog run around in an area where you never or very rarely see other people and city parks where you pass people every minute or two. I don't have much experience with the very secluded areas as most of the parks we use are city parks. When we're on the trails at these parks we can't go five minutes without seeing someone else. And it's everyone from other people with leashed dogs, totally unruly off leashed dogs, toddlers and their parents, people with strollers, folks out for a nice jog... I think I ran into a well-behaved off leash dog once. ONCE.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I'm honestly surprised at how many people seem to think you are a horrible, selfish, irresponsible owner for letting your dog off leash in a secluded field in the park. Or that training dogs off leash is some horrible danger.
> 
> All I can guess is it's a community/location difference because letting your dogs off in empty fields is very common around here and in TX too. Particularly the gundog crowd- I see people training working upland and water dogs all the time. Never seen one cause a problem at all.


I probably should have explained. I'm speaking more so of the OP, who has a dog off leash where they should be on leash. Even in your scenario, what happens in your field you speak of, if your dog runs up to a DA dog & gets hurt, or hurts a child? People can say their dogs are fine but no one knows for sure.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

InkedMarie said:


> I probably should have explained. I'm speaking more so of the OP, who has a dog off leash where they should be on leash. Even in your scenario, what happens in your field you speak of, if your dog runs up to a DA dog & gets hurt, or hurts a child? People can say their dogs are fine but no one knows for sure.


I see like... 1 dog out in those fields maybe every few trips. You can see them a mile away so we've never gotten close. Never seen a kid either out there. 

I'm more worried about keeping an eye out for coyotes than anything.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> I probably should have explained. I'm speaking more so of the OP, who has a dog off leash where they should be on leash. Even in your scenario, what happens in your field you speak of, if your dog runs up to a DA dog & gets hurt, or hurts a child? People can say their dogs are fine but no one knows for sure.


Yeah, this is the thing. Out in that field, you can see people coming and there's no one really there, anyway. I don't think this is something some people in more populated areas are getting. There's *no one there* to be impacted, and sneaking up on you in those scenarios is completely impossible. 

What happens? I die of shock because there's literally a half mile of visibility in all directions, and after being there for years I've never encountered another person or dog. YEARS.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Effisia said:


> I think population density might be and issue here, too. There's a HUGE difference, at least in my mind, between letting your dog run around in an area where you never or very rarely see other people and city parks where you pass people every minute or two.


Yes, this. Like someone said earlier, if you have to leash your dog every 50 yards because you're running into people, it's not a good place to have your dog off-leash. If you're in High Park and you're meeting at least 10 people in your 30-minute walk through the (leash-required, low-visibility) trails (that's a reasonable number of people to expect at slow times of day), that is not a good place to have your dog off-leash. If you're in a big field in a more rural area or on someone's private land and you might meet one or two people in an hour, that might be an okay spot to have your dog off-leash. 

Like I said in an earlier post, there are almost 3,200 (licensed, and many more unlicensed) dogs in the neighborhoods bordering High Park. I saw A LOT of dogs on every single walk, and many more people (pedestrians, joggers, cyclists). It is not okay for people to have their dogs loose outside of the off-leash area there. Other large Toronto parks are similar. So that's where I'm coming from.

I am not sure why some of you are trying to defend your actions in this thread when it's fairly obvious that we're not even talking about people like you.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

London's owner said:


> THIS. I should not have to constantly be on the lookout for off-leash dogs, trained or otherwise, in an on-leash area. Even if they are well-behaved with great recall, you are still breaking the law.


So catch me. 
Sadly no one was in sight when my 38 pound dog and I fought off my assaliant at 10am at one of the busiest spots in the park (the boat rentals at Stowe lake)....
Catch me and , maybe? be there to prevent the next crime committed by a HUMAN on another HUMAN while you are at it?

I find it sad that I would have to be fearful of (not really mind you they dont ticket well behaved dogs) off leash penalties and muggings and Rape, simultaneously.

Really those off leash dogs, are keeping crime down and thats how law enforcement sees it...


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I am not sure why some of you are trying to defend your actions in this thread when it's fairly obvious that we're not even talking about people like you.



Ok if thats the case I will cease and desist.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I don't have a problem with people on private property taking their dog off lead or in an off lead area. But people who purposely take their dog off lead where is not allowed grind my gears. Its these people who are going to get dogs banned when their dog gets away and scares someone.

As I stated previously I have a high energy dog. I still don't take him off lead where is not allowed.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

gsdhunter said:


> I don't have a problem with people on private property taking their dog off lead or in an off lead area. But people who purposely take their dog off lead where is not allowed grind my gears. Its these people who are going to get dogs banned when their dog gets away and scares someone.
> 
> As I stated previously I have a high energy dog. I still don't take him off lead where is not allowed.



I do when I am town working (my dog is actually my security)....
Otherwise, yeah we bought Property that is fenced and our off leashed dogs are on it.
That said Not everyone has that option. And there are dogs that are so much happier off leash (which is why we brought acearge in the country, they are warding off coyote off our goats and hens at the moment, and very happy to do it)....
Like I said if this is a priority in town, then Catch me.... (and the drug dealers, the human poopers and trash pile makers in the Park, and the assaulters).....

And you and your on leash dog, will enjoy the benefits.
But dont , really think you are SAFE, that is a concept in your mind. There is no such thing as safety.

I love how someone parked in My Driveway in the City, I was walking my leashed dogs around their (illegallly parked car) and they guy had the nerve to tell me how unSafe he felt around dogs, while at the same time the abduction of the 5 yr old Samantha Runnion was going on... really?....


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

It's fairly obvious that giant blanket statements are being thrown around and they are false. I'm not going to beat a dead horse. 

I obviously don't care that it's illegal or I wouldn't do it. I'm obviously going to continue to do it. I can't see a single way I could be harming anyone. That's all I care about.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> It's fairly obvious that giant blanket statements are being thrown around and they are false. I'm not going to beat a dead horse.
> 
> I obviously don't care that it's illegal or I wouldn't do it. I'm obviously going to continue to do it. I can't see a single way I could be harming anyone. That's all I care about.


I guess you have reading comprehension issues, then, as many of us have explained why off-leash dogs in busy areas are harming us and our dogs, whether their owners realize it or not. But I do appreciate the honesty -- you don't care that you're breaking the law, and you'll continue to do it. Good for you, I guess.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> It's fairly obvious that giant blanket statements are being thrown around and they are false. I'm not going to beat a dead horse.
> 
> I obviously don't care that it's illegal or I wouldn't do it. I'm obviously going to continue to do it. I can't see a single way I could be harming anyone. That's all I care about.


Quoted for posterity.
This whole thread could have been avoided with a simple "I don't care how my illegal acts affect others, because IT'S ALL ABOUT MEEEEE...." Said by the poster who states she walks her dogs off leash in on leash areas, because she doesn't want to run across other off leash dogs...


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> I do when I am town working (my dog is actually my security)....
> Otherwise, yeah we bought Property that is fenced and our off leashed dogs are on it.
> That said Not everyone has that option. And there are dogs that are so much happier off leash (which is why we brought acearge in the country, they are warding off coyote off our goats and hens at the moment, and very happy to do it)....
> Like I said if this is a priority in town, then Catch me.... (and the drug dealers, the human poopers and trash pile makers in the Park, and the assaulters).....
> ...



if I think someone is about to attack me I can drop my dogs leash, no big deal. But I'm not going to go around with my nose in the air saying I have the right for my dog to be running loose because I don't want to get attacked.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

gsdhunter said:


> if I think someone is about to attack me I can drop my dogs leash, no big deal. But I'm not going to go around with my nose in the air saying I have the right for my dog to be running loose because I don't want to get attacked.


Exactly. Having your dog off leash in public areas for protection is a seriously lame excuse. My leashed dog can protect me every bit as much. What if something completely innocent happens, like someone rounds a corner quickly and your dog perceives it as a threat and goes into defense mode? I'd mace the crap out of your dog.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

BernerMax said:


> So catch me.
> Sadly no one was in sight when my 38 pound dog and I fought off my assaliant at 10am at one of the busiest spots in the park (the boat rentals at Stowe lake)....
> Catch me and , maybe? be there to prevent the next crime committed by a HUMAN on another HUMAN while you are at it?
> 
> ...


Stow Lake usually IS a really busy area of the park. I used to go around there about 3 or 4 times per week and run the park for an hour or two. Even on bad weather days (aka normal weather for there), I would pass at least a dozen people and usually see upwards of 30+ people. I didn't have a dog then but even at the time I would have considered that too busy of an area for an off-leash dog. Too many kids, too many cars too. 

I think leashed dogs are just as much of a deterrent towards crime as off-leash dogs. After all, as far as the would-be criminal knows, the dog is leashed because it is aggressive. If needed, drop the leash.

The shady types tend to give the dogs and I a wide distance even with the dogs on-leash. I think part of that (at least around here) is because people involved in crime often encounter dogs as guard dogs or fighting dogs and so are more leery of dogs than someone who is more used to dogs as indoor pets. 

I mean, a leash doesn't exactly make a duo like this suddenly "safe" to someone thinking of doing me harm. The dogs are either a deterrent (pick an easier target) or they aren't (crazy person for example isn't thinking rationally about leash vs no leash)


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Well this thread has just got nastier and nastier. "Nose in the air"? I don't think she's the one preaching to you about what's right and wrong. "Reading comprehension issues"? Really? That's just a lazy rebuttal and a personal attack. And you two are far from the only ones making such comments.

Maybe I started this by responding to the accusations of selfishness. For that I apologize. I'm not going to be the one to finish it though. If you're going to get wound up about other people's lack of courtesy you probably ought to display some yourself. I usually think better of the people here.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alas, I don't think this thread is going anywhere soon. I think we've reached the wall. 

Us nay-sayers have said our piece. Off leaders, do as you wish but if you see me in the park, please leash up your dogs.  Or you'll have a very grouchy RabbleFox to deal with. XD


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I'm sorry that I think following the * law* is the right thing to do....oh wait I'm not! 

Ps-my noise in the air comment was not directed towards one person.but to the attitude that is being expressed.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

aiw said:


> "Reading comprehension issues"? Really? That's just a lazy rebuttal and a personal attack.


Would "willfully ignorant" be nicer? I'm not sure what I should say when someone believes that absolutely no one she sees in a busy area where leash laws is in effect is annoyed or inconvenienced by her loose dogs.

I don't know why anyone is getting defensive, though. If you truly believe that you're not annoying or harming anyone when your dog is loose, then you must not be the kind of person we're complaining about (because the people we're seeing ARE annoying and inconveniencing us and setting our dogs back in their training), and there's no need to justify your actions, right?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Would "willfully ignorant" be nicer? I'm not sure what I should say when someone believes that absolutely no one she sees in a busy area where leash laws is in effect is annoyed or inconvenienced by her loose dogs.
> 
> I don't know why anyone is getting defensive, though. If you truly believe that you're not annoying or harming anyone when your dog is loose, then you must not be the kind of person we're complaining about (because the people we're seeing ARE annoying and inconveniencing us and setting our dogs back in their training), and there's no need to justify your actions, right?


No, because there's a lot of broad generalizations going on on both sides of this, and those broad generalizations are kind of offensive. The topic is broad 'breaking leash laws'. It has included many statements here that do not, in fact, make any allowances what-so-ever for the location in which one is doing so.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Yeah. . .lots of people have random phobias and you just can't make sure everybody feels comfortable all the time. If someone is scared of kids, are they going to throw a fit when someone brings their kids to the park because, dang it, they have a right to use the park without feeling uncomfortable? Some people are scared of bicycles. Sporting equipment (weapons!). Pretty much anything you can think of, someone has a phobia. And I kind of think that if someone has a phobia of dogs and avoids the park because of it, they'll probably avoid the park even if the dogs are on leash because phobias are like that.


This

I hate kids (sorry but I do) and I am "forced " to encounter them even though they make me uncomfortable. So no ... I'm sorry of my do makes you "uncomfortable" but I can only be so accommodating.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Several of us have clarified in the past few pages that we don't have a real problem with people letting their dogs off-leash in fields, on private land, or in other areas where leash laws may technically be in effect, but you'll meet very few people or dogs while walking there. Personally, my issue is with people in busy city parks or in residential areas (every single time my dogs have been rushed by aggressive dogs, it's been while we were in a large busy park or walking down the street in the city).


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> This
> 
> I hate kids (sorry but I do) and I am "forced " to encounter them even though they make me uncomfortable. So no ... I'm sorry of my do makes you "uncomfortable" but I can only be so accommodating.


Someone already answered this post but I'll go over it again. You might be uncomfortable around kids (or cyclists or cars) but there is no *law* saying a kid can't be in a park. You've every right to get grouchy with people who bring their kids to adult only activities as dictated by the rules or the law of that area. I've every right to be grouchy with people who bicycle or drive motorized vehicle on hiking paths or areas strictly for pedestrians. 

On leash dogs in the park is legally allowable by law despite some people's discomfort. Off leash dogs are illegal in the park and have a far greater likelihood of pestering people or other dogs thereby making it really not ok. 

I think that if you are going to be in an area where I won't run into you (far into the wilderness despite leash laws) then coolio. I can't call you out because I'm not there. No body is there. You aren't bugging anyone. But if you are in the local park, on my private property (Grrr... Stupid neighbors), or on very popular hiking trails... I'm going to be miffed. Other people deserve to enjoy their time at the park/on the trails/in other well-used public spaces. I can guarantee that you are bugging somebody if you see people and dogs walking by all the time. Even if your dog is "under control".


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Several of us have clarified in the past few pages that we don't have a real problem with people letting their dogs off-leash in fields, on private land, or in other areas where leash laws may technically be in effect, but you'll meet very few people or dogs while walking there. Personally, my issue is with people in busy city parks or in residential areas (every single time my dogs have been rushed by aggressive dogs, it's been while we were in a large busy park or walking down the street in the city).


It boggles my mind that people do this. I mean, I know they DO, and I have dogs that I COULD do this with, but... WHY? It seems like more of a PITA to be constantly calling and redirecting your dog, keeping an eye out from others, etc. I obsess enough over others approaching when I'm in the middle of an abandoned forest preserve, let alone a city park. Same with natural areas that are busy or having topography that means you can't see for some distance in front of you.

I guess that just... wouldn't be fun for me. A big field, an empty natural area, etc is one thing. A busy park... sounds like more stress than fun, at least to me. I'm actually kind of hypersensitive about my dogs bothering people, so that just wouldn't be ok with me.

A side note, there is an area, a forest preserve, by my work that I know is an unofficial off leash area, despite the posted signs. It doesn't bother me, actually, I just don't take my bitchy bitches there. The area has tons of other preserves (most of people never use!!! Which is sad for the parks for great for me!) However, I do feel bad for people who don't get wind of area's reputation beforehand, and walk into a bunch of loose dogs. If you don't get the memo, you could walk into quite a hornet's nest that way.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Several of us have clarified in the past few pages that we don't have a real problem with people letting their dogs off-leash in fields, on private land, or in other areas where leash laws may technically be in effect, but you'll meet very few people or dogs while walking there. Personally, my issue is with people in busy city parks or in residential areas (every single time my dogs have been rushed by aggressive dogs, it's been while we were in a large busy park or walking down the street in the city).


Yep. That's about what I said. If someone is meeting other people and/or people+dogs (because this isn't just about people walking reactive dogs) more than a few times on a typical walk, then it is a big sign that it is too busy for being off-leash in and on-leash area.

On nice days, I might run into 3-6 off leash dogs with a variety of obedience levels at my busy urban park. The park is huge for a city park but that doesn't mean it isn't well used by many users. That isn't an appropriate area for an off-leash dog IMO regardless of the law but even more so because of the law (expectations of the park users). This holds true for several large parks in my city and IS a problem. One de facto off leash area is next to a children's playground! Kids have to walk through an area where dogs are running loose to go to their playground. I don't care how friendly the dog is, that isn't safe. An 80 lbs Lab running full tilt into a 4 year old child can easily hurt the child. 

Heck, I once spent 20 minutes trying to catch a loose dog running around a PARKING LOT at the park. A few other people were trying to help. At the end of it? A dude opened his truck door (he'd been sitting the parking lot all along) and the dog ran to him and jumped in. It was his dog, I reminded him that a parking lot was dangerous for a dog and there was a leash law and he said "yeah, I know" and drove off. THAT is the kind of genius that I (and my friends) run into regularly.

Now, when I drove across the western states and could see that many parks and open areas stretched for miles and miles with plenty of roaming room and time to spot another person or person+dog coming along? Totally different situation. It isn't my preference to wonder if I will meet loose dogs, but it is showing a whole lot more courtesy on the part of the off-leash dog handler than in a busy park.

Around here, if the property owner gives explicit permission for the dog to be there, then only "direct control" is needed which can be off-leash, e-collar, long line or on-leash depending on the dog. That works for me.

Edit to add:

Part of all this is the "broken windows" theory. In a busier park or an area with a decent number of dogs overall, once one person sees an off-leash dog, they think "Oh, that is fine here, I'll do that too" and then another person sees a few dogs off-leash and so on and so on. Even if someone has very well trained and nearly bombproof dogs off leash in a fairly busy area (running into more than a few people every hour say), the effect is that more people use it off leash and it devolves from there all too often with dogs that shouldn't be loose being off-leash. I too used to think that letting a friendly dog off-leash wasn't a big deal but then I put myself in another's shoes and gained experience with different personalities of dogs and realized that it can be a big problem for others. 

the more on-leash users, the more pressure people feel to keep their dogs on-leash in general which works to the benefit of the majority of park users. Again, I'm talking about city or suburban parks or commonly used areas in general, not the "never see no one" type places.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Shell said:


> Yep. That's about what I said. If someone is meeting other people and/or people+dogs (because this isn't just about people walking reactive dogs) more than a few times on a typical walk, then it is a big sign that it is too busy for being off-leash in and on-leash area.


Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't even matter if the dog is under control or not -- when I was walking through the trails, there was low visibility and I could go around a turn in a path and literally run into a loose dog. My dogs WILL growl and snap at a dog that gets too close (out of fear), and even the best-behaved, friendliest dogs can take offense and snap back -- and the owner will be too far back to intervene quickly. In addition, I have no way of really knowing if a loose dog I can see up ahead is under control, so I often have to change course and go out of my way, sometimes having to find a way to cross a busy street as fast as possible.

This is probably the one subject I'll argue about here that actually makes me angry, and it's because I realize how quickly and effortlessly a loose dog could kill my dogs. We've had so many scares and close calls that at this point, I almost expect to see my dogs ripped apart in front of me some day. I'm not sure if any of you can imagine how that feels, but it's awful. So yes, seeing any loose dogs in areas where dogs should all be leashed makes me angry.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Just an fyi .. the BTC requires that all dogs be on leash at all times, and that hikers (and dogs) stay strictly ON the trails. I believe the acceptable area has technically been designated as a 3' margin to either side of the actual trail itself.
> 
> Here's part of the reason why. Over 50% of the Bruce Trail transverses 'private' property, whether it be homeowner's land or the land of businesses such as Hydro One. Hydro One still retains their right to TRAP animals ANYWHERE on their own property, primarily so that these animals (beavers, groundhogs, muskrats etc) cannot undermine the embankments of the watercourses and such, which would result in untold damage and costly re-construction for the utility company on an on-going basis. And, I believe their 'trap of choice' is the conibear type. Ouch.
> 
> So yeah. Big shocker, I know, that this trapping could be allowed to take place in such close proximity of the public. The largely UNAWARE public. At least it was to me when I discovered set traps within a few feet of the trail while out walking my dogs one day. At first I thought it might have been poachers or something, but after a few phonecalls to officials I realized it was best to either abide by the rules for good reason, or find an alternative location without such a great risk.


Thanks for the heads up on that. I had no idea that there could be traps. Another one of Eppy's rules is to stay on the trail which he does very well. Most of the trail I hike on is either in a conservation area or owned by the bta. The hydro corridors I use are all within the city and have homes on either side. I have to assume that there are no traps there.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Well, if anyone sees Gypsy and I off leash at a distance (we'll never be close to you), know that you can call out and ask me to leash her, and I will do so, without snark. You can also call the cops on me, if you feel too threatened to address me. I realize I'm in the wrong.
> 
> My greatest joy with this dog is our off leash time. I know folks are skeptical of dogs that *need* that kind of exercise. Maybe my dog doesn't (though I might argue that she does), but I absolutely do. She is a different animal while and after we work together off leash. I love LOVE LOVE seeing it. Maybe I could recreate that for us with other types of exercise and mental stimulation, but I honestly don't have nearly the time or the patience. And since the dog parks within a 45 min drive are all thunderdome style, we do off leash illegally. I guess I'll hope that there are better dog parks where we're moving. I would love to be a polite, law-abiding citizen again.
> 
> So yeah, I'm rude, I'm sorry. I'm going to continue doing this, trying to be discrete, but I really don't have an excuse. This is my five-mile-over-the-speed-limit.


This.
I have high energy working dogs ... A leashed walk ain't going to cut it ... Josefina needs her chuck it time, but I can always recall her (even off chasing something or seeing another dog or person) she is conditioned to automatically come back to me upon seeing them, if not I can squeak the squeaky toy I always carry and that will surely mKe her About-face.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't even matter if the dog is under control or not -- when I was walking through the trails, there was low visibility and I could go around a turn in a path and literally run into a loose dog. My dogs WILL growl and snap at a dog that gets too close (out of fear), and even the best-behaved, friendliest dogs can take offense and snap back -- and the owner will be too far back to intervene quickly. In addition, I have no way of really knowing if a loose dog I can see up ahead is under control, so I often have to change course and go out of my way, sometimes having to find a way to cross a busy street as fast as possible.
> 
> This is probably the one subject I'll argue about here that actually makes me angry, and it's because I realize how quickly and effortlessly a loose dog could kill my dogs. We've had so many scares and close calls that at this point, I almost expect to see my dogs ripped apart in front of me some day. I'm not sure if any of you can imagine how that feels, but it's awful. So yes, seeing any loose dogs in areas where dogs should all be leashed makes me angry.


I feel really bad for you about this. I hate encountering off leash dogs in on leash areas because I'm afraid that my dog could seriously hurt them if they get in his face. It must be so much worse for you.....


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I am... SHOCKED at the number of people on this forum who think they are above the law, and/or simply don't care they are breaking the law... nor care of other people who are following the law. Wow... I just... yeah, speechless.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't even matter if the dog is under control or not -- when I was walking through the trails, there was low visibility and I could go around a turn in a path and literally run into a loose dog. My dogs WILL growl and snap at a dog that gets too close (out of fear), and even the best-behaved, friendliest dogs can take offense and snap back -- and the owner will be too far back to intervene quickly. In addition, I have no way of really knowing if a loose dog I can see up ahead is under control, so I often have to change course and go out of my way, sometimes having to find a way to cross a busy street as fast as possible.
> 
> This is probably the one subject I'll argue about here that actually makes me angry, and it's because I realize how quickly and effortlessly a loose dog could kill my dogs. We've had so many scares and close calls that at this point, I almost expect to see my dogs ripped apart in front of me some day. I'm not sure if any of you can imagine how that feels, but it's awful. So yes, seeing any loose dogs in areas where dogs should all be leashed makes me angry.


So much, yes. I find myself going off on a tangent on my husband almost DAILY because I'm literally afraid of taking Sydney for walks sometimes because of how many people I've seen who just walk around with their dogs without leashes. At the apartment complex I lived in, there were literally 4 people in my section who thought it was perfectly fine to let their dogs run around the unfenced, grass area to do their business. One time I literally had to book it for my back door because a boxer was headed right for us and Sydney was NOT happy.


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## Melle (Aug 9, 2013)

After being charged by a ~100lb German Shepherd, a toy poodle mix, and another highly aggressive around my neighborhood and the hiking trails and parks, no. No. No. No. NO.

Two of the dogs above mentioned I encountered on the trails, and according to the owners, they had "normally high rates of recall success." I do not care. I do not care for risking myself, or honestly more important to me my Nina, because some people think their dogs are reliable. Nor do I care to give up public trail/park areas where I should be able to exercise my dog, who *is* on a long line, because people won't follow the leash laws. Not happening.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I am... SHOCKED at the number of people on this forum who think they are above the law, and/or simply don't care they are breaking the law... nor care of other people who are following the law. Wow... I just... yeah, speechless.


:thumbup::thumbup: Especially when I have seen tons of topics where someone rants about an off leash dog running up to them and everyone gets all up in arms and says dogs have to be on a leash. Your dog can be the most well trained dog in the world but it's not perfect. It only takes once...


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I wonder if people who disregard the leash laws fully understand what it's like to have a reactive/fearful/aggressive/grouchy dog and just how frickin annoying, obnoxious, and frustrating it is to have to constantly be on the look out for loose dogs, and dealing with one when you see they are loose. The whole "that's not my problem" attitude is very quickly going to change if your off leash dog approaches Charlotte in one of these parks. And I swear to God, if you TRY to kill her to "save your dog", be prepared to end up in the hospital, because it'll happen over my dead body.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Sarah~ said:


> Your dog can be the most well trained dog in the world but it's not perfect. It only takes once...


And I've seen it happen time and time again. Your dog is still a dog at the end of the day, and NO dog is 100%, period.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

RCloud said:


> And I've seen it happen time and time again. Your dog is still a dog at the end of the day, and NO dog is 100%, period.


Every dog that has attacked mine has an owner who was SHOCKED that their dog either didn't come, or ran up to mine. I've been told that "they're friendly/trained/always come back to them. I've never had an owner say "He always runs up to other dogs, but what can you do..."


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> Every dog that has attacked mine has an owner who was SHOCKED that their dog either didn't come, or ran up to mine. I've been told that "they're friendly/trained/always come back to them. I've never had an owner say "He always runs up to other dogs, but what can you do..."


I always get the "Don't worry, he's friendly " remark from people. And they always get annoyed when I yell back "mine's NOT!" because suddenly they're inconvenienced in having to grab their dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

RCloud said:


> I always get the "Don't worry, he's friendly " remark from people. And they always get annoyed when I yell back "mine's NOT!" because suddenly they're inconvenienced in having to grab their dog.


At least they grab their dog when you say that! Some of the people I meet will grab their dogs, but some of them just don't seem to care (because mine are small and can't hurt theirs) and won't grab them until Casper has already snarked at them. I have taken to explicitly saying, "Mine will start a fight," and that works a bit better.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Eko's muzzle has worked far better than anything I've said. People won't listen or tell me I'm wrong even when I say HE WILL BITE YOUR DOG.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> At least they grab their dog when you say that! Some of the people I meet will grab their dogs, but some of them just don't seem to care (because mine are small and can't hurt theirs) and won't grab them until Casper has already snarked at them. I have taken to explicitly saying, "Mine will start a fight," and that works a bit better.


Not everyone is quick to grab their dogs. Some just slowly keep walking, even when Char is bristling and growling. It's like they think because their dog is nice, there is no problem. WRONG!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> This.
> I have high energy working dogs ... A leashed walk ain't going to cut it ... Josefina needs her chuck it time, but I can always recall her (even off chasing something or seeing another dog or person) she is conditioned to automatically come back to me upon seeing them, if not I can squeak the squeaky toy I always carry and that will surely mKe her About-face.


"I have a high energy dog!" Doesn't give you the lee way to break the law. Plenty of people here have high energy dogs and they find ways to properly exercise them by legal means. Dog parks, fenced in bark yards (yours or a friend's), un fenced private property that you've been given permission to use, or in Bae's case, extensive on leash pulling work.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I have to say, I am so glad sometimes that I don't have a small dog. 

First of all, the human attack deterrent is nice. Apparently giant black dogs look pretty scary and fierce, even if Annabel is more likely to roll over on her back for pets than anything else. She also has a fierce, deep bark that even startles me sometimes.

Second, I can't imagine going to parks or even on walks with a smaller dog. The amount of time I've been rushed or approached by strange (big!) dogs is too high to count. I'm pretty safe knowing that even the terrifyingly aggressive GSD that came after us couldn't kill her in ONE hit, but any of the smaller dogs I've seen on here would have been gone. How can you even take that risk with someone else's dog? I mean we all know what it's like to love our dogs, I can't even fathom being responsible for the death of someone's pet. And the thought of someone's "normally friendly/perfect recall" dog even getting a piece of Annabel makes me nauseated. I couldn't imagine the anxiety with a smaller dog.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm scared for small dogs and my dog is on leash and muzzled lol. You are exactly right one bite from him and any small dog is toast. I take so many precautions for everyone else's safety it kind of ticks me off when I see off leash dogs running from their owners trying to catch them. Xena is not DA so far, thank god, if she ever does anything regardless of what the other dog did she would be in the headlines, "pit bull attack". The one time your dog ignores you and picks a fight with her and she bites back that's it for her. 

Just to be clear I still agree walking off leash in the woods or country where no one is around is fine. But saying my dog has perfect recall so I am going to walk it on the street off leash anyway thing pisses me off. My dogs can't afford for YOUR dogs to make a mistake!


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## Melle (Aug 9, 2013)

^ This.

My number one fear has become that one day Nina's DA may become apparent in some form of intolerance, and that when we get charged by yet another dog in the one place I can take her for real exercise, and she reacts, it will all be on her.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> Your dog can be the most well trained dog in the world but it's not perfect. It only takes once...





RCloud said:


> And I've seen it happen time and time again. Your dog is still a dog at the end of the day, and NO dog is 100%, period.


Ever been to an obedience trial ? lol. 

Even the most prepared dogs will sometimes fail the off-leash heeling and/or recall exercises, especially the Novice A dogs. And that's in a sterile environment, with little or no distraction, and with dogs who aren't already hopped up on the thrill and liberty of the great outdoors. 

JQP's who claim perfect or near perfect recall should prove it officially, I say. Good luck with that, and prepare to have your eyes poked open.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RCloud said:


> I wonder if people who disregard the leash laws fully understand what it's like to have a reactive/fearful/aggressive/grouchy dog and just how frickin annoying, obnoxious, and frustrating it is to have to constantly be on the look out for loose dogs, and dealing with one when you see they are loose. The whole "that's not my problem" attitude is very quickly going to change if your off leash dog approaches Charlotte in one of these parks. And I swear to God, if you TRY to kill her to "save your dog", be prepared to end up in the hospital, because it'll happen over my dead body.


I fully understand it. I guess I just don't worry about other factors so much. Frag was very reactive as an adolescent, and Sir was very reactive for about a year after I owned him. I've owned dog aggressive dogs and small grouchy dogs, too. I never really found it annoying, obnoxious, or frustrating to have to watch my surroundings when walking them for off leash dogs. I do this anyway, with my friendly and non-reactive dogs, to prevent anything from sneaking up on us that could scare or harm them, or me. I don't let them meet other dogs out and about ever, so I handle situations with off leash dogs and them the same way I did with reactive or aggressive dogs. I've been charged by dogs plenty of times and luckily I've never encountered one that didn't back off when I kicked it, but I do carry a knife when I'm out just in case. I don't know if I'm jaded because I grew up in an area with a lot of strays so I don't know what it's like not to expect loose dogs, or what. I've never lived in an area where there was a reasonable expectation that I wouldn't see an off leash dog while I was out with mine. 



Crantastic said:


> At least they grab their dog when you say that! Some of the people I meet will grab their dogs, but some of them just don't seem to care (because mine are small and can't hurt theirs) and won't grab them until Casper has already snarked at them. I have taken to explicitly saying, "Mine will start a fight," and that works a bit better.


This *does* annoy me as I mentioned. If I tell you to get your dog, I mean to get your dog now, and the next thing out of my mouth will be a string of words you wouldn't want your grandmother to hear followed by kicking at/of the dog if you don't comply. I would expect someone to do the same thing to my dogs if they ever behaved like that, which is why I take precautions to make sure they're not ever put in the situation.


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## VickytheRobot (May 24, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> I'm scared for small dogs and my dog is on leash and muzzled lol. You are exactly right one bite from him and any small dog is toast. I take so many precautions for everyone else's safety it kind of ticks me off when I see off leash dogs running from their owners trying to catch them. Xena is not DA so far, thank god, if she ever does anything regardless of what the other dog did she would be in the headlines, "pit bull attack". The one time your dog ignores you and picks a fight with her and she bites back that's it for her.
> 
> Just to be clear I still agree walking off leash in the woods or country where no one is around is fine. But saying my dog has perfect recall so I am going to walk it on the street off leash anyway thing pisses me off. My dogs can't afford for YOUR dogs to make a mistake!


Yeah, this is exactly what I meant with my post. My two pit bulls lose even when it's the other owner that's being irresponsible. I would never dream of letting them off leash in our city parks. We have been rushed by many dogs but both of my dogs have been bitten by the same yorkie on two separate occasions. I have screamed at that owner before to no end, but I still see them out all the time, yorkie off leash, barking and nipping at everything. One of these days that dog is going to nip at the wrong target and it will all be over. If my dogs were not under my control at the time it could have been us. That's tremendously sad and scary and it's entirely the fault of that irresponsible owner.

I usually worry about them from the standpoint of other dogs starting something and my dogs being blamed because they are pits but I think Crantastic makes really good points on the issue from the standpoint of a small dog owner. Even if my dogs only disobeyed one time and they hurt a smaller dog I don't know how I could live with myself. It just doesn't make sense to take the risk. And it certainly isn't fair to make her guess at whether an unleashed dog will show interest in her dogs or not. Every single time she sees an unleashed large dog she's looking at a potential threat to her dogs' life.


I also see a distinction between the country settings and the city. I live in a city and my parks are urban. There are regularly a lot of people and dogs throughout. If I want to let my dogs run off leash we have to find an alternative, more appropriate setting. I can't imagine being in an urban setting and unleashing my dogs, that is basically the same thing as saying "I don't care about you and your right to enjoy this park, I am more important than you."


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RCloud said:


> Not everyone is quick to grab their dogs. Some just slowly keep walking, even when Char is bristling and growling. It's like they think because their dog is nice, there is no problem. WRONG!


I have had reactive dogs in the past ... I used inconsiderate people as an opportunity for training, if your training begins to break down in the presence of loose dogs ... Then I would work harder on my training. 

That being said I never used to le my dogs off lead in neighborhoods, pet stores or residential areas. I don't live in the city anymore but when I did I would pick a park with large open areas to use my chuck it (it required a lot of room lol) to ensure that I am not going to hit anyone with it or accidentally toss it into someone's path.


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## ann72 (Dec 3, 2013)

Just my 2 cents on this subject. I am very against dogs being off leash when a park or area states on leash only. Having been attacked by a GSD when I was 5 and having 18 stitches in my skull, I am petrified of any large dog now that is not leashed. Even when I visit the vet with my small little Chihuahua's I stay far far away from large leashed dogs. Even leashed I am scared to be close. 

So just for a moment imagine someone like me that even sees a large dog on a leash, I walk as far away as I can. I am not able to recognize a well behaved large dog vs one that is not. You may know your dog is well behaved and has an excellent recall, but all I want to do is scream and climb the nearest tree, literally. So please have respect for people that might be like me and scared of certain types of dogs or just any dog in general. 

Just as some may want to give their dog freedom to run, allow us the respect to be able to use a park or area that is on leash only and go find somewhere else that is off leash to let your dog be free.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

ann72 said:


> Just my 2 cents on this subject. I am very against dogs being off leash when a park or area states on leash only. Having been attacked by a GSD when I was 5 and having 18 stitches in my skull, I am petrified of any large dog now that is not leashed. Even when I visit the vet with my small little Chihuahua's I stay far far away from large leashed dogs. Even leashed I am scared to be close.
> 
> So just for a moment imagine someone like me that even sees a large dog on a leash, I walk as far away as I can. I am not able to recognize a well behaved large dog vs one that is not. You may know your dog is well behaved and has an excellent recall, but all I want to do is scream and climb the nearest tree, literally. So please have respect for people that might be like me and scared of certain types of dogs or just any dog in general.
> 
> Just as some may want to give their dog freedom to run, allow us the respect to be able to use a park or area that is on leash only and go find somewhere else that is off leash to let your dog be free.


Oh but that's COMPLETELY your fault and you should just "get over it" dontchakno. /sarcasm


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have had reactive dogs in the past ... I used inconsiderate people as an opportunity for training, if your training begins to break down in the presence of loose dogs ... Then I would work harder on my training.


The problem isn't with my training. The problem is other people putting my well trained but fearful dog in a very uncomfortable situation where she feels the need to defend herself. You can't train her NOT to do that when feeling threatened. If people obeyed the law and kept their dogs away from her, there'd be no problem.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Effisia said:


> Second, I can't imagine going to parks or even on walks with a smaller dog. The amount of time I've been rushed or approached by strange (big!) dogs is too high to count. I'm pretty safe knowing that even the terrifyingly aggressive GSD that came after us couldn't kill her in ONE hit, but any of the smaller dogs I've seen on here would have been gone. How can you even take that risk with someone else's dog? I mean we all know what it's like to love our dogs, I can't even fathom being responsible for the death of someone's pet. And the thought of someone's "normally friendly/perfect recall" dog even getting a piece of Annabel makes me nauseated. I couldn't imagine the anxiety with a smaller dog.





VickytheRobot said:


> I usually worry about them from the standpoint of other dogs starting something and my dogs being blamed because they are pits but I think Crantastic makes really good points on the issue from the standpoint of a small dog owner. Even if my dogs only disobeyed one time and they hurt a smaller dog I don't know how I could live with myself. It just doesn't make sense to take the risk. And it certainly isn't fair to make her guess at whether an unleashed dog will show interest in her dogs or not. Every single time she sees an unleashed large dog she's looking at a potential threat to her dogs' life.


I really appreciate both of these posts. I know a lot of owners of large dogs who always keep their dogs leashed in busy/residential areas, and I appreciate that very much! I understand your side of things, too, as my last dog was a 95lb malamute/collie mix who could easily have killed a small dog (I watched him kill a skunk once, and he grabbed and shook that thing insanely quickly and efficiently -- he killed several skunks during his lifetime before they could even spray). I felt much safer walking with him, as he would silently stare down any rushing dog. They almost always turned and ran without him making a sound; he only had to snap at dogs twice that I can recall. 

On one of those occasions, the dog was a loose shih tzu that came running out of its yard and nailed him first. My mother was walking Scout at the time and she said he snapped back and she was afraid he was going to kill the shih tzu (it sounds like he just gave a noisy correction, though; that dog was unharmed). My mother was so scared by this that she wanted to get Scout put down! I had to convince her that the small dog was in the wrong and that Scout was not aggressive.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RCloud said:


> The problem isn't with my training. The problem is other people putting my well trained but fearful dog in a very uncomfortable situation where she feels the need to defend herself. You can't train her NOT to do that when feeling threatened. If people obeyed the law and kept their dogs away from her, there'd be no problem.


She shouldn't be put in the position to need to defend herself. That's your job to prevent, not everyone else's. Down stays, body blocking, sticks and your voice/legs are great in these situations.

There will always be stray dogs, and other outside variables that you cannot control. I had a baby racoon chase me down the road with Frag and Sir one evening... I had to run away for a little, then put them in down stays while I kicked the racoon away enough times that it got the picture and turned around. I'm not just going to let something approach them and see what happens...


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Wow this thread! It sure has caused an uproar. Two sides firmly believing they are in the right and have drawn a line in the sand that is turning into a ravine. 

Kind of sad


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> She shouldn't be put in the position to need to defend herself. That's your job to prevent, not everyone else's. Down stays, body blocking, sticks and your voice/legs are great in these situations.
> 
> There will always be stray dogs, and other outside variables that you cannot control. I had a baby racoon chase me down the road with Frag and Sir one evening... I had to run away for a little, then put them in down stays while I kicked the racoon away enough times that it got the picture and turned around. I'm not just going to let something approach them and see what happens...



That happened to me one time too. The animal though was a skunk and no I did not turn around and kick at it. It happened in the woods. The skunk came out of a pile of brush.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> She shouldn't be put in the position to need to defend herself. That's your job to prevent, not everyone else's. Down stays, body blocking, sticks and your voice/legs are great in these situations.
> 
> There will always be stray dogs, and other outside variables that you cannot control. I had a baby racoon chase me down the road with Frag and Sir one evening... I had to run away for a little, then put them in down stays while I kicked the racoon away enough times that it got the picture and turned around. I'm not just going to let something approach them and see what happens...


Not everyone is physically capable of fending off dogs and critters. One of our trainers was rushed by a rabid fox. She gathered her dogs and went into a nearby lake, and the fox followed them in. Fortunately, a park ranger was nearby. (not that it's comparable to fending off dogs)

I also know a few SD puppies that were removed from the program after being attacked by off leash dogs. If the scuffle is relatively low key, typically, no harm done, but some of the attacks were severe enough to physically or psychologically affect the pup. 

As much as I like to have my dogs off leash, and want others to enjoy those opportunities too, I won't do it in public areas. And whenever I have an SD pup with me, I am very quick to either stop and demand dogs to be leashed, or turn around (when possible). One of my SD puppies was rushed by an off leash dog, out in a field, off leash with his trainer/owner. He swore his dog had excellent recall. I carefully chose where I go with SD puppies specifically to avoid these situations, so when I encounter them, I'm not always pleasant about it and I keep my cell phone handy.

There is a group that I sometimes hike with. We do enjoy having the dogs off leash on trails, but the last time we went, 2 of the dogs in the group were all over the place, nearly causing a mountain biker to fall, no recall or effort to recall. Another was ticketed for chasing a cyclist.

I don't have a problem with off leash dogs, as long as they're not in public places frequented by others and as long as they don't rush people and dogs.


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## Brit (Nov 16, 2013)

We have a local county park that the county planned a network of Mountain Bike trails to be built is some of the undeveloped areas in order to expand usership and attract more users (= payers) to the park. Now the park already has a Dog Park and miles of hiking trails that dogs are allowed on with a 6ft leash. However, over the years literally hundreds of dog walkers have migrated to the back areas of the park in order to walk there dogs off leash in the woods... which is illegal in county parks. Also, all users are restricted from these areas, they are NOT allowed to be back there... certainly not without a leash! However, over the past year with the development of MTB Trails and Horse trails we have butted heads with the "off Leash" walkers and they are a true problem. Mountain Bike riders and Horse riders are, which are the only users allowed in those areas are running into off leash dogs and their pissed off entitlement minded owners. Now I am a avid user of the county park system in a variety of ways including biking, sledding, skiing, hiking and socializing & walking my dogs there, I am very careful to mind the law and always use a leash... however, some people just don't understand that off leash dogs are illegal, and a problem, and interfering with other legal paying users of our natural resources.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I fully understand it. I guess I just don't worry about other factors so much. Frag was very reactive as an adolescent, and Sir was very reactive for about a year after I owned him. I've owned dog aggressive dogs and small grouchy dogs, too. I never really found it annoying, obnoxious, or frustrating to have to watch my surroundings when walking them for off leash dogs. I do this anyway, with my friendly and non-reactive dogs, to prevent anything from sneaking up on us that could scare or harm them, or me. I don't let them meet other dogs out and about ever, so I handle situations with off leash dogs and them the same way I did with reactive or aggressive dogs. I've been charged by dogs plenty of times and luckily I've never encountered one that didn't back off when I kicked it, but I do carry a knife when I'm out just in case. I don't know if I'm jaded because I grew up in an area with a lot of strays so I don't know what it's like not to expect loose dogs, or what. I've never lived in an area where there was a reasonable expectation that I wouldn't see an off leash dog while I was out with mine.
> 
> 
> 
> This *does* annoy me as I mentioned. If I tell you to get your dog, I mean to get your dog now, and the next thing out of my mouth will be a string of words you wouldn't want your grandmother to hear followed by kicking at/of the dog if you don't comply. I would expect someone to do the same thing to my dogs if they ever behaved like that, which is why I take precautions to make sure they're not ever put in the situation.


this ^^ 100%.

I fully understand reactive dogs and keeping vigilant, for gods sake until recently I walked Gypsy in a MUZZLE because she was so reactive, to people AND large dogs(she is remarkably friendly with small dogs), she also wears a harness that I had specially designed for optimal control of her to prevent her from seriously injuring anyone or anything. then I have Rusty who is leash reactive and will start mauling MY OTHER DOGS when he cant get to his target. oh and I have Paisley who was an abuse case and is scared to death of people running around her yelling, and ties me in knots trying desperately to get away. and an Gem, she is friendly but to her, play is play and work is work, these do not mix, when she is working anyone who wants to "play" can GTH. as such I am hyper vigilant, on leash or off., and peoples dogs running to to mine? pisses me off and ruins my walk, I spend the rest of the walk fuming mad, trying to get my dogs back under control and trying to tone down my temper because I'm frightening Paisley. just last weekend a guy let his GSD run ACROSS THE STREET at my dogs, I yelled that mine are not friendly, as I tried to drag back 6 dogs on ice. he yelled back "oh that's too bad, mine is!" but called his dog, his dog came right back, I started walking, he let his dog do it AGAIN, he yelled "he see's other dogs, he just wants to play!!" I yelled at him that I didn't give a flying **** and to keep his dog the hell away from me, and spent the next while fuming, about the moron. THAT person is an inconsiderate a-hole. about a month before that I had a guy ENCOURAGE his puppy(who could not have cared less about me until his owner pointed me out) to "go see" my dogs, I screamed at him that my dogs are NOT friendly, and he tried to get his PUPPY under control...which involved running circles around me screaming and waving his arms, which I am sure helped Paisley's shear terror of men immensely. 

those of us who are responsible about letting out dogs off leash and not friggen stupid, are not causing anyone these problems, those are irresponsible idiots, and anyone who thinks those people are going to obey leash laws because those of us who are not stupid stopped disobeying them, is seriously deluded.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Miss Bugs said:


> those of us who are responsible about letting out dogs off leash and not friggen stupid, are not causing anyone these problems, those are irresponsible idiots, and anyone who thinks those people are going to obey leash laws because those of us who are not stupid stopped disobeying them, is seriously deluded.


But when people see other dogs off leash in a Leash law area, they begin to think it's ok, and then do it as well. The dogs aren't trained, and problems occur. Around here, it's especially common for younger people to think that having off leash dogs is cool and they're a problem.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> But when people see other dogs off leash in a Leash law area, they begin to think it's ok, and then do it as well. The dogs aren't trained, and problems occur. Around here, it's especially common for younger people to think that having off leash dogs is cool and they're a problem.


Agreed - And the worst dog training facility slogan I ever saw was "If your dog needs a leash, its not trained". No kidding, that was their slogan, t-shirts, hats bumper stickers, et al. Their dogs were all off leash, but wearing shock collars - that was the kicker. There are most definitely folks who think because they took a class or two, they can walk their dogs off leash.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Basically this comes down to BUT I WANT TO WAAAAAHHHHH lol. I can't believe this is still going on.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, let the dogs off leash today at the park. Drove up and all 3 parking lots were empty save one car and the people were at a hill by the front of the park sledding. We had all the rest of the 400 acres to ourselves. Didn't see a single person or a dog. Just a couple squirrels.

Now, earlier we went to a smaller park(probably 30-40? acres) to do a photoshoot of a couple and I was surprised that people were there (all with dogs off leash). It's pretty crowded usually. Not super crowded today but still we had a big dog run up to us. Girls stayed leashed for obvious reasons.

Both are 'on leash' technically but I see a BIG difference in the two scenarios.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> But when people see other dogs off leash in a Leash law area, they begin to think it's ok, and then do it as well. The dogs aren't trained, and problems occur. Around here, it's especially common for younger people to think that having off leash dogs is cool and they're a problem.


I reiterate. my(or anyone else's here) stopping is never going to have any bearing on those people, if all of us who use common sense when letting our dogs off, stopped letting our dogs off(or never started in the first place) then there would still be off leash dogs everywhere and the ONLY example's of off leash dogs would be those out of control ones with stupid people.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Basically this comes down to BUT I WANT TO WAAAAAHHHHH lol. I can't believe this is still going on.


Agreed! I'm am floored....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

spotted nikes said:


> But when people see other dogs off leash in a Leash law area, they begin to think it's ok, and then do it as well. The dogs aren't trained, and problems occur. Around here, it's especially common for younger people to think that having off leash dogs is cool and they're a problem.


Yeah but stop groupig everyone who lets their dogs off leash into the "irresponsible / problem causing dog owner" group ... Because we aren't all like that.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yeah but stop groupig everyone who lets their dogs off leash into the "irresponsible / problem causing dog owner" group ... Because we aren't all like that.


But people who let their dog off lead in an on lead area are irresponsible! 

It's like speeding, lots of people do it, but it's against the law, so you can get a ticket for it...because it's wrong. It doesn't matter that everyone is doing it or if you are a great driver. it's against the law.period.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

gsdhunter said:


> It's like speeding, lots of people do it, but it's against the law, so you can get a ticket for it...because it's wrong. It doesn't matter that everyone is doing it or if you are a great driver. it's against the law.period.


Yup. I do that too. I also don't stop the full 3 seconds at every stop sign. I even park where I'm not supposed to sometimes and toss the hazards on as I know I'll only be a few minutes. All are calculated risks. All break the law. 

I find it hard to believe that all the naysayers don't break any law period. What makes the leash law so much worse than others.. that's what has left me confused. Again, talking about responsible/common sense people here.. and relatively remote areas.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There's also a difference between going 5 miles over the speed limit on the interstate and going 90 in a school zone. . .


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Willowy said:


> There's also a difference between going 5 miles over the speed limit on the interstate and going 90 in a school zone. . .


Absolutely - like there is a difference with an off leash dog in a highly populated/dense city park filled with kids, etc etc.. vs remote trails out in the country.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Loki Love said:


> I find it hard to believe that all the naysayers don't break any law period.


Who said they didn't?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

gsdhunter said:


> But people who let their dog off lead in an on lead area are irresponsible!
> 
> It's like speeding, lots of people do it, but it's against the law, so you can get a ticket for it...because it's wrong. It doesn't matter that everyone is doing it or if you are a great driver. it's against the law.period.


So what you are saying is that you never break the law ... Ever? If not then ok, but I am sure you speed every once and a while, maybe sometimes don't wear your seatbelt or park where you shouldn't. 

While I speed, some times don't wear my seatbelt ... And sometimes break leash laws. No one is perfect, we all break laws that could potientally harm someone, no one is perfect ... What I don't like is ppl being all high and mighty chastising others for breaking laws when they most likely break laws themselves.

I break a good few laws ... Including leash laws and as long as I have a dog who I can do it with, then I will continue to do it.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> So what you are saying is that you never break the law ... Ever? If not then ok, but I am sure you speed every once and a while, maybe sometimes don't wear your seatbelt or park where you shouldn't.
> 
> While I speed, some times don't wear my seatbelt ... And sometimes break leash laws. No one is perfect, we all break laws that could potientally harm someone, no one is perfect ... What I don't like is ppl being all high and mighty chastising others for breaking laws when they most likely break laws themselves.
> 
> I break a good few laws ... Including leash laws and as long as I have a dog who I can do it with, then I will continue to do it.


So basically you know it's wrong and you don't care....and I'm the one whose all high and mighty...

I try not to speed and rarely do, never in town. I always wear my seatbelt and I never park where I shouldn't.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

gsdhunter said:


> So basically you know it's wrong and you don't care....and I'm the one whose all high and mighty...
> 
> I try not to speed and rarely do, never in town. I always wear my seatbelt and I never park where I shouldn't.


Trying not to speed and rarely do.. means you do. Oh heavens.. you break the law. Imagine that


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Loki Love said:


> Trying not to speed and rarely do.. means you do. Oh heavens.. you break the law. Imagine that


No one is perfect, not saying I am, but at least I try not to break the law and certainly don't break the law on purpose! That is the difference between us.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

gsdhunter said:


> No one is perfect, not saying I am, but at least I try not to break the law and certainly don't break the law on purpose! That is the difference between us.


So you accidently speed..? You're not aware you're speeding..? Honestly, I think that's worse. I'm fully aware of what I'm doing which makes me far more vigilant, in my opinion.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> So what you are saying is that you never break the law ... Ever? If not then ok, but I am sure you speed every once and a while, *maybe sometimes don't wear your seatbelt* or park where you shouldn't.


I always always always wear my seat belt. It is an easy thing that really reduces risk and requires minimal effort. 

Kinda like having good judgement about where a dog should be off-lead: which is generally NOT an area with on-lead dogs or more than a handful of other park/area users. 

It is one thing to take a calculated risk with your own dogs, for example like CptJack has stated she does after careful consideration of the area for being sufficiently isolated, and another to choose to use an on-lead public park or urban area for one's off-leash playtime without truly considering the impacts to others. Impacts which are not just to other people with dogs, but to park users in general and to the public's perception of dog owners.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Loki Love said:


> So you accidently speed..? You're not aware you're speeding..? Honestly, I think that's worse. I'm fully aware of what I'm doing which makes me far more vigilant, in my opinion.


Sometimes I go 5 over when I'm going down a hill in the country...then I slow down..shoot me!


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## ann72 (Dec 3, 2013)

As a new member here I was looking forward to talking to a lot of people on here, but man some here are a hot in the head bunch. I have watched this entire post go down. It's been quite interesting, and I personally will call the cops if I see a dog off a leash where I am walking. Maybe those against it should just do the same and if more pople are ticketed they will think twice before letting a dog loose off leash where poeple are and where leash laws are in order. All I can comment on is if some of you are this hard headed on breaking rules/laws on purpose then I wonder how a lot here expect dogs to follow YOUR rules. ugh


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Miss Bugs said:


> I reiterate. my(or anyone else's here) stopping is never going to have any bearing on those people, if all of us who use common sense when letting our dogs off, stopped letting our dogs off(or never started in the first place) then there would still be off leash dogs everywhere and the ONLY example's of off leash dogs would be those out of control ones with stupid people.


I think that would be fantastic, actually. Then maybe the cities would get more strict about it.

I have to say, the whole "I'm sure you speed sometimes, so you can't tell me not to break this other totally unrelated law!" is one of the craziest arguments I've seen in a while.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> I have to say, the whole "I'm sure you speed sometimes, so you can't tell me not to break this other totally unrelated law!" is one of the craziest arguments I've seen in a while.


And the fact you can't see the correlation makes me shake my head. 

A law, is a law, is a law. We cannot pick and choose which we follow - they are ALL meant to be followed. If you say 'OMFG you let your dog off leash and should be staked and burnt to the ground' you CANNOT say in the same breath.. 'Oh but speeding.. sure we all do that sometimes'. At the end of the day - both are laws. Both should be followed.. but we ALL take calculated risks, asses the situation and go from there. 

No one is perfect here.. but calling out those of us who are responsibling allow dogs off leash (again, remote areas and leashing up/getting control BEFORE anyone else has a thing to say)... dunno. Seems all a wee bit hypocritical to me.

With that.. I'm done with this thread. Clearly we aren't meant to see eye to eye.. but the chances of running into you and your dogs in my small town of Rigaud, QC are slim.. so don't mind me while I carry one doing what I'm doing


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I think that would be fantastic, actually. Then maybe the cities would get more strict about it.
> 
> I have to say, the whole "I'm sure you speed sometimes, so you can't tell me not to break this other totally unrelated law!" is one of the craziest arguments I've seen in a while.


Exactly.

Along with two wrongs don't make a right.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Guess what? Everyone is hypocritical about something. And it's ridiculous to say that if you never break any law, then you can't ever object to anyone breaking any other law. There's a difference between murdering someone and rolling through a stop sign at 3 am with no other traffic in sight, and guess what that is? Hint: How do your actions affect other people you are sharing a public space with?

Time and time again people have said that even if YOU don't feel you affect other people with your dog off leash in more populated parks/areas, you do affect them. And if you want to keep on doing it despite that, then fine, it's not worse than Hitler. Just acknowledge that you're willfully choosing to ignore their discomfort in favor of your convenience.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> But when people see other dogs off leash in a Leash law area, they begin to think it's ok, and then do it as well. The dogs aren't trained, and problems occur.


I agree that this happens. There is like a critical mass tipping point for when people think it is okay to let their dogs loose because they are seeing other people doing it. That's how a few de facto off-leash areas have popped up around my city and they are all located in far too busy of areas -- cars, dogs, kids, bikes, etc -- to be reasonably safe for all involved. 

I know that people go with the "but I saw other people with off-lead dogs" reasoning because I've specifically been told that by others. Some say "Oh, I didn't know there was a leash law cause I saw other people's dogs off lead" even though signs at all the park entries state the leash law in writing. 

If a technically on-leash park is quiet enough to let a dog off-leash, then it is quiet enough that there is no one there to see you do it so you (the generic you) wouldn't be influencing anyone to let their dogs loose also. 

I often see people with off-lead dogs in situations that not only aren't suitable (next to busy roads or on city sidewalks for example) but where I cannot even understand the point of it. I totally get the desire to let a dog run at full speed in a wide open area but if the dog is trailing along behind you on a sidewalk, just put a leash on the dog and reduce that small chance of him darting into traffic.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

random funny off leash story from a few years ago, "note: this was NOT on purpose and I would never do this on purpose* but this says what my dogs are like, I don't have to stay on top of them because they don't care to go anywhere. ok so the story, my dogs were all outside when my brother decided to walk to the grocery store about 10 blocks away, he put in her ear buds, blasting his music and walked out the gate paying no attention..he didn't realize that the gate had not latched properly behind him. ALL of my dogs followed him out..they follower him all the way to the grocery store without my brother having a clue, then they waited outside the store for him to come out of the store shocked to see ALL of my dogs standing on the side walk outside the store waiting. he nearly had a panic attack, he knew if something happened to any of them, I would kill him lol, its not like he was prepared with leashes, and he certainly could not have picked up and carried 6 dogs home... so he picked up the one mostly likely to bolt after something(Rusty) and hoped to god the rest would follow him home. they did lol. to this day I wonder how funny that must of looked to anyone who glanced out their window..1 oblivious person bobbing along listening to music, followed by SIX loose dogs! or how shocked he must have been to walk out of the store to see all my dogs sitting there waiting for him lol


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Loki Love said:


> And the fact you can't see the correlation makes me shake my head.
> 
> A law, is a law, is a law. We cannot pick and choose which we follow - they are ALL meant to be followed. If you say 'OMFG you let your dog off leash and should be staked and burnt to the ground' you CANNOT say in the same breath.. 'Oh but speeding.. sure we all do that sometimes'. At the end of the day - both are laws. Both should be followed.. but we ALL take calculated risks, asses the situation and go from there.
> 
> ...


I am not sure if you've actually been reading my posts, because I don't drive and therefore have said nothing about speeding, and I also don't have a problem with loose dogs in remote areas (as I have said multiple times). My issue is with loose dogs in city parks and on residential streets.

Also, what sassafras said.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Since you guys all break leash laws, you can't object when I park in handicapped parking. Or call 911 as a joke. Or start fires. Right? Right? 

Thanks for the free pass, guys!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

gsdhunter said:


> No one is perfect, not saying I am, but at least I try not to break the law and certainly don't break the law on purpose! That is the difference between us.


We are not saying we are perfect ... I admit that I sometimes break leash laws, I also sometimes take my dogs to places where they are technically not allowed. I admit this ... I am not trying to hide the fact that I do it, I don't deny it. But I am also responsible about it Josefina is the only one who is allowed off lead, buddy is not reliable and will never be off lead ... Ever. That is being responsible.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ann72 said:


> As a new member here I was looking forward to talking to a lot of people on here, but man some here are a hot in the head bunch. I have watched this entire post go down. It's been quite interesting, and I personally will call the cops if I see a dog off a leash where I am walking. Maybe those against it should just do the same and if more pople are ticketed they will think twice before letting a dog loose off leash where poeple are and where leash laws are in order. All I can comment on is if some of you are this hard headed on breaking rules/laws on purpose then I wonder how a lot here expect dogs to follow YOUR rules. ugh


The cops in the city I used to live in (San Antonio) would likely give you the "ok ma'am we understand" treatment because they just dont have the time to respond to calls like that ... They would lowly defer you to the park rangers or "police". 

Also why would you ruin the fun of someone that is not bothering you or is far away from you? You said "if I ever see an off leash dog that is breaking the law I will call the cops!" Why would you make trouble for someone who is not actively bothering you because you are scared? Please. 

I was badly bitten by a chow and a cocker spaniel as a kid but I don't freak out and call the cops or ruin someone's day jus because I see an off leash cocker spaniel or chow.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Since you guys all break leash laws, you can't object when I park in handicapped parking. Or call 911 as a joke. Or start fires. Right? Right?
> 
> Thanks for the free pass, guys!


Do as you like - it's a calculated risk


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Thank you for helping me demonstrate the difference between legal and ethical choices. 

ETA: I'm sure it makes people feel better about being inconsiderate to call people who leash their dogs hypocrites, though.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Just to be super clear: If you're letting your dog off-leash in areas that technically have leash laws, but which are either so remote or so quiet that the number of people/dogs you're meeting is near zero, then you probably aren't bothering anyone, and I'm not talking about you in this thread.

If you are letting your dog off-leash in busy areas, then even if your dog is under control and has amazing recall, I guarantee that you are annoying and inconveniencing people. Those people include owners of larger reactive dogs who are afraid their dog would seriously hurt or kill a loose dog, owners like me who have to consider every loose dog a potential threat to our dogs' lives, people who are afraid of dogs, people who have stopped even using the park because of loose dogs, and many more. 

I don't expect any of you to stop letting your dog off-leash; I'm not kidding myself here. I guess I just wish you'd stop with the crazy justifications and admit that you're breaking the law because you want to and because you don't care about people like me.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I went to Uruguay last year and while I have no idea what their leash laws actually are, I was surprised to see that off-lead dogs were so common. I don't mean strays or street dogs or dogs running loose without owners, I mean dogs walking with people or sitting at street cafes without leashes. Of course out on the huge ranches there were many off lead ranch dogs, that is common many places I think. 
People would "park" their dog outside the grocery store or the bank and the dog would wait until the owner came back. I'm sure it isn't a perfect system because I saw some lost dog flyers in the city  but overall, it seemed to work. My host put a leash on her dog when we entered someone else's ranch out of courtesy and dog walkers with a group of dogs used leashes, but just walking down the street, you could expect to see off-lead dogs.

The key difference between my being "okay" with all those loose dogs and complaining about the same thing in my own city? The expectation of the public in public areas. If someone knows a park is on-leash and goes there with that expectation, they should only encounter on-leash dogs. Whereas there, no one expected dogs to be on-leash as far as I could tell. 

It is about knowing what you're likely to encounter on a park trip that really matters for many walkers, bikers and dog walkers and not feeling like a public space has been commandeered by others, whether those people be ones with off-leash dogs or anyone else that detracts from the overall use of the park.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Thank you for helping me demonstrate the difference between legal and ethical choices.
> 
> ETA: I'm sure it makes people feel better about being inconsiderate to call people who leash their dogs hypocrites, though.


You know ... There are also irresponsible folks who use leashes irresponsibly just as much as folks who have their dogs loos irresponsibly. So should I do like some on here and say " everyone who walks their dog on a long line or flexi is irresponsible!" That kind of argument make no more sense then the one that says "all owners who have their dogs off leash are irresponsible!" 

There are irresponsible folks who never unleash their dogs just like there are irresponsible folks who have their dogs loose.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> You know ... There are also irresponsible folks who use leashes irresponsibly just as much as folks who have their dogs loos irresponsibly. So should I do like some on here and say " everyone who walks their dog on a long line or flexi is irresponsible!" That kind of argument make no more sense then the one that says "all owners who have their dogs off leash are irresponsible!"
> 
> There are irresponsible folks who never unleash their dogs just like there are irresponsible folks who have their dogs loose.



Okay? 

(And I haven't argued that ALL owners who have their dogs off leash are irresponsible.  )


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> You know ... There are also irresponsible folks who use leashes irresponsibly just as much as folks who have their dogs loos irresponsibly. So should I do like some on here and say " everyone who walks their dog on a long line or flexi is irresponsible!" That kind of argument make no more sense then the one that says "all owners who have their dogs off leash are irresponsible!"


Who said that _all_ owners who have their dogs off leash are irresponsible? I think that Laurelin and CptJack sound pretty damn responsible.

My opinion of flexis is actually VERY similar to my opinion of off-leash dogs -- good in large fields or remote areas, bad in busy city parks and on sidewalks. Actually, most places with leash laws specify that the leash must be six feet or shorter, so people using flexis extended longer than that are technically breaking the leash laws as well.


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## ann72 (Dec 3, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Also why would you ruin the fun of someone that is not bothering you or is far away from you? You said "if I ever see an off leash dog that is breaking the law I will call the cops!" Why would you make trouble for someone who is not actively bothering you because you are scared? Please.
> 
> I was badly bitten by a chow and a cocker spaniel as a kid but I don't freak out and call the cops or ruin someone's day jus because I see an off leash cocker spaniel or chow.


So since you were not traumatized or scared of certain kinds of dogs after being bitten means I should not be either? This is the problem with people like you in society. People like you all are so self centered that you THINK everyone else needs to conform to how YOU think or feel about a situation. THIS is exactly who these laws were made for, people like you that think your 'fun' of breaking the law is fun for everyone. Shame on you!


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Who said that _all_ owners who have their dogs off leash are irresponsible?





gsdhunter said:


> But people who let their dog off lead in an on lead area are irresponsible.


Right there...which is the exact post that started this most recent flurry of justifications. Earlier on other posters also took a very black and white stance on the off leash issue. I suspect, had people mentioned their viewpoints on ways that it could be done responsibly much earlier hackles would not have gone up on both sides. As it is now, people are missing the forest for the trees on both sides.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I was badly bitten by a chow and a cocker spaniel as a kid but I don't freak out and call the cops or ruin someone's day jus because I see an off leash cocker spaniel or chow.


Not everyone recovers from something traumatic as easily as you may have.

A person that might be only mildly stressed by a large dog on-leash that they feel they can give a comfortable distance to may be in a near panic at a large dog off-leash that they have no idea if it is obedient or friendly. 

My mother was attacked by dogs in two different instances as a child. In one case, a Boxer went for her throat and bit her hands badly when she defended her neck. She doesn't have a dog phobia, she is totally fine with leashed dogs in parks, will cuddle on the couch with my dog and my foster pit bulls, but she is not happy at all when she sees a loose dog that may or may not recall to it's owner. Not panicked, just that low level stress of "is this dangerous? do I need to leave the area?" type thing. In an urban park, there is no reason she should have to feel like that.


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## Brit (Nov 16, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> The cops in the city I used to live in (San Antonio) would likely give you the "ok ma'am we understand" treatment because they just dont have the time to respond to calls like that ... They would lowly defer you to the park rangers or "police".
> 
> Also why would you ruin the fun of someone that is not bothering you or is far away from you? You said "if I ever see an off leash dog that is breaking the law I will call the cops!" Why would you make trouble for someone who is not actively bothering you because you are scared? Please.
> 
> I was badly bitten by a chow and a cocker spaniel as a kid but I don't freak out and call the cops or ruin someone's day jus because I see an off leash cocker spaniel or chow.


Thats a crap argument. How many times do we in this forum advise others to have a little tough love for their pets.... to establish boundaries and enforce them to encourage proper behavior. Just because HUMANS display behavior that is not expectable does't mean we should overlook it just because it may "ruin the fun of someone that is not bothering you or is far away from you". This is not about the fun of others... this is about proper and responsible ownership. If you can't bring yourself to understand this, then you should not own a pet. 

We hunters often run our dogs "off leash" in specific circumstances of hunting... but we also spend A TON of time training our dogs to understand the difference between "legal hunting" times to be off leash and "illegal non-hunting" times to be off leash, and only do it in designated areas... and I will have words with any dog owners who think they can let their family pets off leash because they think they deserve to the same "privileges" to run off leash dogs in illegal areas as those of us who have put the time and effort into sporting dogs and actually hunt them in designated hunting areas. 

Irresponsible law breakers ruin the privilege that many hunters have struggled to maintain and nurture over the years.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

How on earth has this thread degenerated into this....really, debating on breaking laws being fun...seriously. 

It started out interestingly, more about the issues of safety and respect for others we share our spaces with and whether those things can be maintained with our dogs off leash, and what kind of spaces we can use and can maintain that safety and respect with our dogs off leash. What kind of criteria we us to base our decisions on when it comes to the decision to go "leashless"...interesting thoughts and considerations for a variety of scenarios. 

I have a fair amount of respect for many of you, even when I don't agree with your opinions, I can see your points, and find many of the discussions interesting, but this is going farther than usual. I generally try to refrain from posting when things get to this point in a thread, but this is getting silly. When "people like you" comes out, and it is actually directed at a specific individual I can't help but think "shame on us all" for letting it get this far off track! 

And yea, I'm in there too, I butted my dumb head in now didn't I....Can someone lock this thread before real name calling starts or people get banned, its starting to feel just a post or two away.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Crantastic said:


> Who said that _all_ owners who have their dogs off leash are irresponsible? I think that Laurelin and CptJack sound pretty damn responsible.


Thanks. I've been so confused about what people were thinking was ok or not. 

Like I said, the park we go to is technically on leash but many days large sections (or the entire thing like today) are totally empty. We're talking hundreds of acres empty. It was confusing me how I was inconveniencing people today by letting the girls off leash when we seriously ran into 0 people or dogs on our trip. Granted our trip was only an hour. It was COLD.


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## MimiAzura (Jan 5, 2013)

i didn't read the whole 22 pages D:

but, our official off leash dog park is a small section by a creek surrounded by houses. 
I really don't like letting Taj and Freya off there because Taj swims and he doesn't come back when he is in the water lol 

and, I swear no one knows its the dog park so there is never anyone there.

so, I take them to a bush land reserve on the edge of town where there are always other dogs, so no shortage of socialization oppurtunities for freya..


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## Brit (Nov 16, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> How on earth has this thread degenerated into this....really, debating on breaking laws being fun...seriously.
> 
> It started out interestingly, more about the issues of safety and respect for others we share our spaces with and whether those things can be maintained with our dogs off leash, and what kind of spaces we can use and can maintain that safety and respect with our dogs off leash. What kind of criteria we us to base our decisions on when it comes to the decision to go "leashless"...interesting thoughts and considerations for a variety of scenarios.
> 
> ...


Welcome... theres coffee in the back!


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> She shouldn't be put in the position to need to defend herself. That's your job to prevent, not everyone else's. Down stays, body blocking, sticks and your voice/legs are great in these situations.


You're damn right she shouldn't be put in a position where she needs to defend herself, and she wouldn't if people obeyed the leash law. I do step in to defend her, but I shouldn't HAVE to make a scene in public to protect my dog, because some jackass can't leash their dog. Because that's what the leash law is there for, to protect dogs and owners. So yes, it IS everyone's responsibility. You say "that's not my problem" but if your dog approaches Charlotte off leash, it's going to turn into your problem pretty frickin fast!

You really think a downstay is going to make her feel safe? Are you kidding???


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ann72 said:


> So since you were not traumatized or scared of certain kinds of dogs after being bitten means I should not be either? This is the problem with people like you in society. People like you all are so self centered that you THINK everyone else needs to conform to how YOU think or feel about a situation. THIS is exactly who these laws were made for, people like you that think your 'fun' of breaking the law is fun for everyone. Shame on you!


No ... Shame on you for wasting the police's time on someone who is far away from you minding their own business. But anyway as soon as I see a cop, I can leash my dog and be all like "I don't know what they are talking about" before they can tag me for breaking the law. 

But I don't have a large, scary dog anyway so I doubt you would be afraid of her in the first place. She is 30lbs if she is lucky and very sweet and fluffy looking. 

@Sasafrass I am sorry but I believe we will have to disagree on irresponsibility.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm coming back around to what I said at the start of the topic... People are going to do what they are going to do. It's a risk you take, I just hope people would be responsible and only take that risk with you and your dog, not mine or anyone else's. 

I've said it before it's your job to protect the public from your dog and if you decide your dog is well-trained enough, no one will be able to stop you from doing it but don't expect us to like it or people not to report you. That's all part of the risk of doing something you can be reported for. Doesn't really matter what laws someone else may or may not have broken that's just trying to throw someone else under the bus to take the heat off of you, doesn't really fly when the law is concerned.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm kinda embarrassed by the arguments in this thread for breaking leash laws. I mean, I'm one of those folks who absolutely _do _break them in certain places - I have my reasons, and I take many precautions - but, like, I'm not going to argue that it's right or I'm somehow justified. Haha.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I'm kinda embarrassed by the arguments in this thread for breaking leash laws. I mean, I'm one of those folks who absolutely _do _break them in certain places - I have my reasons, and I take many precautions - but, like, I'm not going to argue that it's right or I'm somehow justified. Haha.


Good for you!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I'm kinda embarrassed by the arguments in this thread for breaking leash laws. I mean, I'm one of those folks who absolutely _do _break them in certain places - I have my reasons, and I take many precautions - but, like, I'm not going to argue that it's right or I'm somehow justified. Haha.


And I don't either ... I just don't want to be grouped under the umbrella of "irresponsible" dog owners that shouldn't own dogs either.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Ditto....this topic has long run its course too...

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

It might be a bit late for this but at this point in the thread its a free for all anyways!

One thing I find really interesting is the extent to which people influence systems and systems influence people. Sometimes it can even be hard to tell which is happening. A good example of this is 'Desire Paths' in parks. They are the informal footpaths forged around a barrier, as a shortcut or even just to a popular scenic spot. You see them all the time in public parks. On the one hand they're generally deviations from the 'official' route which may have been constructed for conservation, safety or any other reason. On the other hand they generally represent a more efficient route and offer something the official trail is lacking. Its pretty common for these walkways to wear with use and eventually be incorporated into the official system. A lot of public walking paths are considered heritage sites and protected, even on private property.

I bring it up because I think its very important to keep the purpose of the system in mind. The whole point of these public walkways and parks is to serve people. The public will violate rules which are inefficient, unfeasible or undesirable. That violation isn't necessarily a failure of *the people* IMO. 'Rules are rules' is not a very compelling argument without referencing the reason those rules exist. To facilitate the the people utilizing those rules. A completely inflexible system tends to be quickly over-run (mostly by its own uselessness) but a complete free-for-all is equally inefficient. Each needs to influence the other.

Another example of this is the kids soccer games that take place in my local park (yes, the same one!) Each weekend there is a pickup game of sorts on the field where the dogs run. Its mostly kids with a few young adults but the unofficial roster changes most weeks with a few core players. I think its a great example of people actually making use of public spaces and I quite like the neighbourly interactions it generates. Is it an officially sanctioned use of the space? No. Does it mean I'm unable to picnic on the field (or let my dog run) during that time? Yes. But its a lovely example of local culture, I'd hate to see such things eradicated and those kids told they can't use the park in the quixotic pursuit to let *everybody* use the park all the time. On the whole I really like people exploring the space around them and making novel use of it. 

Sure, a blank space is infinitely useful for all folks but does that matter in the slightest if you're not then allowed to actually _use it_?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

^Is there a law that dictates people can't play soccer on the field???? Does playing soccer on the field potentially endanger children, adults, and other dogs????

Off leash dogs do both. In city areas at least. I guess I have to get off of the people's backs whom I cannot see or complain about because they are way out in the country or woods where no one else is but those who continue to let their dogs off leash in city parks, parking lots, pet stores, regular stores, and other designated on leash areas continues to irk me. Oh, and scare my dog(s).

Edited to add: I'm guessing it's not you (you being DFers) that are my problem. My problem is the rest of the dog owning population who things there dogs are good enough to be off leash in said areas but they aren't. I don't think anyone should have their dogs off leash in high traffic, non-designated areas but you know...


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> ^Is there a law that dictates people can't play soccer on the field???? Does playing soccer on the field potentially endanger child, adults, and other dogs????


Well under the bylaws it would probably be considered a sports "league" and required to rent the space. Not having an official roster that would pretty much disintegrate the entire thing, it might also be declined because it is on a busy road with bikes, joggers and a playground. The whole point though is that simply saying 'that's against the rules' isn't a very persuasive case. Why such rules exist and the level of their utility is what is important. If I made a rule that says "no soccer" would the pickup game be automatically in the wrong? Just like that?

EDIT: IMO a big question is what "The Dog Park" brings to the community vs. what it detracts. Anytime you have large groups of people its always a balancing act of competing interests. What it brings is pretty substantial, an outlet for happy, well exercised dogs, a really good network for community building (I've met a lot of my neighbours this way) and fills a facility void in our neighbourhood... Namely an offleash space. Displacing all the people who want to let their dogs offlead to other parks is pretty inefficient and likely to just multiply the problem by the number of other spaces people make use of. As I said, people will only subordinate themselves to a system so far, a good one takes that into account. The harm is very minimal (people with reactive dogs or extreme dog phobias should avoid this park and can easily walk around it safely). The benefit is great.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

aiw said:


> Well under the bylaws it would probably be considered a sports "league" and required to rent the space. Not having an official roster that would pretty much disintegrate the entire thing, it might also be declined because it is on a busy road with bikes, joggers and a playground. The whole point though is that simply saying 'that's against the rules' isn't a very persuasive case. Why such rules exist and the level of their utility is what is important. If I made a rule that says "no soccer" would the pickup game be automatically in the wrong? Just like that?


I'm guessing it would only be against the rules of they specifically come, plan it out, set up goals and lines, and possibly pay money to join. As far as I know, kicking a ball around a field with your buds (or strangers) isn't exactly letting your (general) rando dog off leash. Which in my case is against state law also, not just park rules. That particular league by law must become very fuzzy. When does it reach league status? Does two people kicking a ball count as soccer automatically? Do they consistently take up the field every Saturday to play soccer? Is money being made? I'm going to make the bold assumption that off leash dogs is a bit more black and white than unofficial soccer. 

Overall, I think soccer is going to allowed more likely than off leash dogs. All the parks in my area do not have such laws about league sports but then again I'm in suburbia. Soccer is lyfe for some, lol.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> I'm guessing it would only be against the rules of they specifically come, plan it out, set up goals and lines, and possibly pay money to join. As far as I know, *kicking a ball around a field with your buds (or strangers) isn't exactly letting your (general) rando dog off leash.* Which in my case is against state law also, not just park rules. That particular league by law must become very fuzzy. When does it reach league status? Does two people kicking a ball count as soccer automatically? Do they consistently take up the field every Saturday to play soccer? Is money being made? I'm going to make the bold assumption that off leash dogs is a bit more black and white than unofficial soccer.
> 
> Overall, I think soccer is going to allowed more likely than off leash dogs. All the parks in my area do not have such laws about league sports but then again I'm in suburbia. Soccer is lyfe for some, lol.


As for the bolded I'm not convinced of the difference really. The use of the space means that its unavailable to others (a huge factor people have cited) the players aren't exactly expert (hehe) so the ball is occasionally kicked across the street with people running to retrieve it. It can be rather loud. Offleash areas are already well accepted by most on the board, the only problem here seems to be that *this* area isn't specifically rated offlead. My argument is that the system is only as useful as it reflects *actual use*. 

Also, I edited my other post to expand my response a bit if you're interested.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Children kicking a soccer ball aren't going to kill my dogs, unless something super crazy happens. They're not endangering anyone's safety or breaking laws; at most they're an inconvenience. I don't think it's a good comparison.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Children kicking a soccer ball aren't going to kill my dogs, unless something super crazy happens. They're not endangering anyone's safety or breaking laws; at most they're an inconvenience. I don't think it's a good comparison.


Except that this argument applies equally to all offleash dog parks. The logical conclusion would be that you are against all offlead dogparks in general. I'm assuming that's not the case...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

My dogs and I can (and do!) avoid off-leash dog parks. We can't avoid walking down the streets, and we shouldn't have to avoid 400-acre parks because people are letting their dogs off-leash everywhere, including in leash-only trails and in the zoo. We already tend to walk at the least-busy times possible (just got back from a walk, actually). Also, people with loose dogs in off-leash dog parks that are designated as such aren't breaking the law, so no, I have no problem with them.

It's pretty simple for me, really. If an area is designated as off-leash (and even if it's a field that's been kind of taken over and become an unofficial leash-free area with defined borders), I can be aware of that and avoid it. I will not be putting my dogs in danger. If an area is designated as leash-only, I should be able to walk there without having to worry about being rushed by loose dogs. Of course, that's never the case; I've met loose dogs in every single Toronto and PEI and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia park I've walked in with my guys, but yeah. I am annoyed, inconvenienced, and always on alert because every loose dog I see is a potential threat to my dogs' lives. I do not like it, and I consider people who let their dogs off-leash in busy parks to be inconsiderate and self-centered.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I can see the reasoning behind leashing in an area where visibility is limited, the usage is intended for and primarily used by those with leashed dogs. There is a legitimate demand for safe spaces for reactive, DA or small dogs; I don't mean to imply that *every* "unofficial" use of public space is a good one. There will always be competing interests. Its just interesting to explore the dynamics of systems, their intended use and actual use, how they influence each other, the many compromises and competing interests of living so closely among _so many_ people. Fascinating stuff, IMO.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aiw said:


> It might be a bit late for this but at this point in the thread its a free for all anyways!
> 
> One thing I find really interesting is the extent to which people influence systems and systems influence people. Sometimes it can even be hard to tell which is happening. A good example of this is 'Desire Paths' in parks. They are the informal footpaths forged around a barrier, as a shortcut or even just to a popular scenic spot. You see them all the time in public parks. On the one hand they're generally deviations from the 'official' route which may have been constructed for conservation, safety or any other reason. On the other hand they generally represent a more efficient route and offer something the official trail is lacking. Its pretty common for these walkways to wear with use and eventually be incorporated into the official system. A lot of public walking paths are considered heritage sites and protected, even on private property.


Your example of changing footpaths is actually a good comparison to the creation of "informal" (unannounced, unregulated but somewhat accepted) dog parks. The reason is that those footpaths are actually often a problem. People tend to go the shortest and easiest route FOR THEM without regards to the long term consequences that can ruin the trail or park for other people. 

Paths, like you said, are generally constructed with a plan to maximize longevity/durability and minimize erosion and hazards. It isn't as simple at all as just drawing a line from point A to point B. But when people start cutting off the path and doing things like walking straight lines up hills (major erosion problem) or going around muddy areas (widening the path until the whole thing is a mud pit because the drainage is damaged) then it can be dangerous to other people who expect a well maintained path and it can cause the trails to have to be closed for seasons or even years while nature recovers and the trail is restored.

Can an informal path be a better route? Yes. But on the whole, the general public has poor judgment of the best (that combination of scenery, safety, durability and efficiency that an engineer or landscape architect is aiming for) route just like far too many of them have poor judgment of where to let their dogs loose. "Leave No Trace" hiking provides guidelines to walkers to promote the conservation of wild areas to the benefit of everyone. A similar mindset should be applied to off-leash dogs. 

Your soccer game example is but one day per week and it is obvious to an observer from a distance that there is a soccer game. Should someone walk up to it unexpectedly, it is not likely to pose any danger to anyone aside from an errant ball. Not the same as getting halfway into a walk with a leashed dog and happening upon a loose dog or unofficial dog park area.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

But I want to waaaahhhh!!! 


Also, I think people confuse a spirited debate with true anger/emotion too often. Just sayin'.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RCloud said:


> You're damn right she shouldn't be put in a position where she needs to defend herself, and she wouldn't if people obeyed the leash law. I do step in to defend her, but I shouldn't HAVE to make a scene in public to protect my dog, because some jackass can't leash their dog. Because that's what the leash law is there for, to protect dogs and owners. So yes, it IS everyone's responsibility. You say "that's not my problem" but if your dog approaches Charlotte off leash, it's going to turn into your problem pretty frickin fast!
> 
> You really think a downstay is going to make her feel safe? Are you kidding???


No, I'm not kidding. I trained my reactive dogs to turn to me for guidance and trust me, because I never let dogs actually get to them. So when I say down it doesn't mean they get to stay at the end of their line and bark or fight with the dog charging us. It means "I have this handled, you need to remain there so that you don't get hurt." Reactivity in general is usually stemmed from not knowing what to expect and a fear or anxiety based on it in the minds of dogs. I take away any question they have and handle the situation myself instead of expecting or letting them do it. And it works.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> No, I'm not kidding. I trained my reactive dogs to turn to me for guidance and trust me, because I never let dogs actually get to them. So when I say down it doesn't mean they get to stay at the end of their line and bark or fight with the dog charging us. It means "I have this handled, you need to remain there so that you don't get hurt." Reactivity in general is usually stemmed from not knowing what to expect and a fear or anxiety based on it in the minds of dogs. I take away any question they have and handle the situation myself instead of expecting or letting them do it. And it works.


Having an off leash dog in Bae's face put him over threshold. <--- No learning happening there. Even with my body between them, it was way too much for him. Off leash dogs are not usually a good training tool. Only in very specific, controlled situations would I want an off leash dog around Bae Dog on leash. If I were working with a trainer and her dog, then yeah, her dog can be off leash during a training session. Randos on the street or in the park need to keep their dog on leash so as I don't have to be throwing my body between them and making every single walk a "training session". Plus, I could easily be injured by either dog. Bae could easily end up snapping me instead of the other or the other dog could start a fight and I'm right in between them. That sounds not cool.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

sassafras said:


> But I want to waaaahhhh!!!
> 
> 
> Also, I think people confuse a spirited debate with true anger/emotion too often. Just sayin'.


Exactly! I'm not angry at anyone here for their opinion and actually I think people here would not be an issue for me if we happened to run into each other on a walk. But you guys are the minority, for the most part I believe dogs have no business off leash because generally people don't have your level of control, and there are SO MANY of them. So if you train your dogs and take them on off leash hikes in the woods, whatever, doesn't bother me, but I can't understand any reason for walking a dog off leash in the city or any other place in public... I can't change your mind or make you stop but it sounds like an accident waiting to happen and it better not be my dog when it happens.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> ...I can't change your mind or make you stop but it sounds like an accident waiting to happen and it better not be my dog when it happens.


So much this!!!!! I do not want my dog to be the one who suffers. Bae is gone from me so someone else is walking him now but I'm sure they don't want to deal with off leash dogs either.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

rabblefox said:


> having an off leash dog in bae's face put him over threshold. <--- no learning happening there. Even with my body between them, it was way too much for him. Off leash dogs are not usually a good training tool. Only in very specific, controlled situations would i want an off leash dog around bae dog on leash. If i were working with a trainer and her dog, then yeah, her dog can be off leash during a training session. Randos on the street or in the park need to keep their dog on leash so as i don't have to be throwing my body between them and making every single walk a "training session". Plus, i could easily be injured by either dog. Bae could easily end up snapping me instead of the other or the other dog could start a fight and i'm right in between them. That sounds not cool.


exactly this.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> No, I'm not kidding. I trained my reactive dogs to turn to me for guidance and trust me, because I never let dogs actually get to them. So when I say down it doesn't mean they get to stay at the end of their line and bark or fight with the dog charging us. It means "I have this handled, you need to remain there so that you don't get hurt." Reactivity in general is usually stemmed from not knowing what to expect and a fear or anxiety based on it in the minds of dogs. I take away any question they have and handle the situation myself instead of expecting or letting them do it. And it works.


Ok that's all well and good, but what about DA? You can't train out true DA. My dog will not take food, respond to my voice, notice corrections, the second that dog is in his sight he is going to go after it. I love my dog and I have trained him since he was 12 weeks old, he trusts me but short of sitting on him he's not laying down. And he's not scared. Tail straight up, ears up, leaning forward with intense eye contact until the dog gets close enough and then comes all the noise and biting. 

To everybody: I muzzle Eko and stay as far away as I can from other dogs, so loose dogs are my biggest pet peeve, I am doing everything in my power to keep the public safe and they (not necessarily anyone here, general "they" ) are going out of their way to make us fail by PURPOSELY letting their dogs loose and watching them run up to us. He has to be exercised like every other dog, where am I supposed to go if no one follows the rules? Drive out to the middle of nowhere? How is that fair? /end rant


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> Having an off leash dog in Bae's face put him over threshold. <--- No learning happening there. Even with my body between them, it was way too much for him. Off leash dogs are not usually a good training tool. Only in very specific, controlled situations would I want an off leash dog around Bae Dog on leash. If I were working with a trainer and her dog, then yeah, her dog can be off leash during a training session. Randos on the street or in the park need to keep their dog on leash so as I don't have to be throwing my body between them and making every single walk a "training session". Plus, I could easily be injured by either dog. Bae could easily end up snapping me instead of the other or the other dog could start a fight and I'm right in between them. That sounds not cool.


I'm not saying it is something to seek out, but I worked with a trainer and dogs that I knew well for reactivity to be able to make my dogs focus on me regardless of how reactive they used to be and what dogs were where. You certainly wouldn't wait until the dog was in your dogs face before asking it to down stay. I see a dog running/walking toward us from across a trail/field, whatever, and I tell my dog to down and I step out in front of him a few yards so that the dog can never get TO my dog. Which makes my dog feel safe and gives him no reason to react. 



Sarah~ said:


> Ok that's all well and good, but what about DA? You can't train out true DA. My dog will not take food, respond to my voice, notice corrections, the second that dog is in his sight he is going to go after it. I love my dog and I have trained him since he was 12 weeks old, he trusts me but short of sitting on him he's not laying down. And he's not scared. Tail straight up, ears up, leaning forward with intense eye contact until the dog gets close enough and then comes all the noise and biting.


It doesn't matter if your dog is dog aggressive. I have dealt with many, MANY dog aggressive dogs. Your dog's problem is focus and reactivity. I know, have trained, and worked with many dog aggressive dogs who can focus on their owners in the presence of other dogs just fine. It's just if they actually met the other dog that they would kill it, but working within proximity is totally fine for them because their owners starting working at a distance and using huge motivators to get their dogs to focus, then starting decreasing distance and working the same exercises. The fact that the dog would actually kill another has little to do with how it should act around other dogs or what you should do if a dog is charging you and yours. If your dog can't focus when it sees a stimuli, it is a training issue, not an instinct issue. But, this is a huge aside from the actual topic here. If you'd like to talk about it more, feel free to private message me.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not saying it is something to seek out, but I worked with a trainer and dogs that I knew well for reactivity to be able to make my dogs focus on me regardless of how reactive they used to be and what dogs were where. You certainly wouldn't wait until the dog was in your dogs face before asking it to down stay. I see a dog running/walking toward us from across a trail/field, whatever, and I tell my dog to down and I step out in front of him a few yards so that the dog can never get TO my dog. Which makes my dog feel safe and gives him no reason to react.


I don't think he would stay? Because I couldn't be holding him into the position and making sure he didn't rush the other dog. Unless I tied him to something? Bae had less than perfect obedience. It sounds like he would fail the stay, meet the other dog head on, and maybe kill him if I wasn't fast enough. I personally would have him sit and grab his attention to my face when I could but I can't control where the off leash dog is. Off leash dog comes too close and all hell breaks loose. The stay of any kind is broken! Unless I choke him out.

[QUOTE/] doesn't matter if your dog is dog aggressive. I have dealt with many, MANY dog aggressive dogs. Your dog's problem is focus and reactivity. I know, have trained, and worked with many dog aggressive dogs who can focus on their owners in the presence of other dogs just fine. It's just if they actually met the other dog that they would kill it, but working within proximity is totally fine for them because their owners starting working at a distance and using huge motivators to get their dogs to focus, then starting decreasing distance and working the same exercises. The fact that the dog would actually kill another has little to do with how it should act around other dogs or what you should do if a dog is charging you and yours. If your dog can't focus when it sees a stimuli, it is a training issue, not an instinct issue. But, this is a huge aside from the actual topic here. If you'd like to talk about it more, feel free to private message me.[/QUOTE]

The main issue with this is that Sarah and Eko can't control where the other, off leash dog is. So yeah, when he is 100yds down the street, you can capture his attention. But then he doesn't stay there. He rushes down the street at you. What then?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

That's why I'm saying that this would be a training issue and just needs to be worked on around other calm dogs on leash, then more reactive or hyper dogs on leash. No chance of actual contact, but the distraction is the same so that when you ARE approached by an off leash dog, there is a much MUCH smaller chance of your dogs breaking their stays.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> That's why I'm saying that this would be a training issue and just needs to be worked on around other calm dogs on leash, then more reactive or hyper dogs on leash. No chance of actual contact, but the distraction is the same so that when you ARE approached by an off leash dog, there is a much MUCH smaller chance of your dogs breaking their stays.


But with so many real life off leash dogs, it just sabotages our training. Like everyday. And puts other dogs at risk because our dogs are NOT nice.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> But with so many real life off leash dogs, it just sabotages our training. Like everyday. And puts other dogs at risk because our dogs are NOT nice.


I know the effects of dogs rushing mine before they were to this level of training, but they didn't effect our training enough to set us back and not make it possible. It was tedious and constant training, and these were certainly set backs, but it paid off and now I don't need to worry about my dogs being harmed by other off leash dogs/didn't have to worry about my foster killing another dog. You just have to do more training when you're having set backs like this. But it gets easier to get and keep attention, and they recover quicker when something does happen when you've been putting in so much time.

eta; I guess I just try to see the silver lining- I'm never going to be able to control everyone else, and because of that, it made me work harder with my own dogs so that I can control them, and increased our bond together, which is a great thing.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I know the effects of dogs rushing mine before they were to this level of training, but they didn't effect our training enough to set us back and not make it possible. It was tedious and constant training, and these were certainly set backs, but it paid off and now I don't need to worry about my dogs being harmed by other off leash dogs/didn't have to worry about my foster killing another dog. You just have to do more training when you're having set backs like this. But it gets easier to get and keep attention, and they recover quicker when something does happen when you've been putting in so much time.
> 
> eta; I guess I just try to see the silver lining- I'm never going to be able to control everyone else, and because of that, it made me work harder with my own dogs so that I can control them, and increased our bond together, which is a great thing.


I suppose it matters not to me as I had to give Bae up. But whatever. My main point is that I shouldn't have to be set back in my training everyday because people refuse to follow the law. Thats messed up. There isn't much a silver lining when I'm constantly having to deal with people who are "above the law" and what not.

Maybe I'm just bitter and angry. There is that too.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> I suppose it matters not to me as I had to give Bae up. But whatever. My main point is that I shouldn't have to be set back in my training everyday because people refuse to follow the law. Thats messed up. There isn't much a silver lining when I'm constantly having to deal with people who are "above the law" and what not.
> 
> Maybe I'm just bitter and angry. There is that too.


You shouldn't have to, but you always will. With everything in life, you will be set back, annoyed, etc. by laws that other people break. By things that other people do. There's no sense in staying angry/bitter when it is all out of your control and it will never change. Because of the way our system works, there really isn't the expectation not to run into problems in life that would be prevented if everyone just followed the rules.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It must be nice to always have ample time to see a loose dog coming and be able to get in between it and your dogs. I've been able to sometimes. But see my earlier posts about meeting dogs around bends in a path or having them run out from behind a (half-)fence in a yard and be on us before I have time to react. I have also met dogs that did care at ALL that I was between them and my dogs and yelling in a deep angry voice, and ran around me to get at them.

Also, I fully agree that we should all be working on reactivity with "look at that" type training. I do that with my guys. But guess what? That kind of training requires rewarding your dog for being calm while watching other dogs at a distance. It doesn't work so well when those dogs come running over and get right in your dog's face. Dogs over threshold are not learning... or they're learning that loose dogs are scary and will come at them, really. It sets the training back immensely.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

What kind of society have we become where anything and everything is banned or forbidden? 

Land of the free... I don't think so. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Well, that's a bit of an overreaction. Dogs themselves are still allowed a ton of places. They just need to be leashed.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> What kind of society have we become where anything and everything is banned or forbidden?
> 
> Land of the free... I don't think so.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


By that same token then I should be able to pillage and burn down a village because I wanna. Land of the free doesn't mean no rules. Off leash dogs are banned because of people who aren't you. There are too many people who think their dogs are "trained" but they aren't. Dogs are also not robots. They can and do make mistakes. Even well seasoned dogs break at obedience trials.

Leash laws are there to protect us. Because my dog is on a leash, your dog is safe to walk without being attacked and eaten.

On leash dogs are allowed a ton of places. My local Bed, Bath and Beyond, TJ Maxx, Home Goods, Lowes, TSC, pet stores, outdoor markets, garden stores, festivals, flea markets, and many more allow dogs as long as they are leashed.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

MaDeuce said:


> What kind of society have we become where anything and everything is banned or forbidden?
> 
> Land of the free... I don't think so.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Whelp! Time to go mug a few innocent people out on the street and set some houses on fire because I feel like it. Goodnight folks!


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> I know the effects of dogs rushing mine before they were to this level of training, but they didn't effect our training enough to set us back and not make it possible. It was tedious and constant training, and these were certainly set backs, but it paid off and now I don't need to worry about my dogs being harmed by other off leash dogs/didn't have to worry about my foster killing another dog. You just have to do more training when you're having set backs like this. But it gets easier to get and keep attention, and they recover quicker when something does happen when you've been putting in so much time.
> 
> eta; I guess I just try to see the silver lining- I'm never going to be able to control everyone else, and because of that, it made me work harder with my own dogs so that I can control them, and increased our bond together, which is a great thing.


And how about when people have 3 dogs. Or there are a couple of loose dogs together running at you. That's happened twice to me recently. Two German Sheps charging mine. A down stay would do nothing, and I can't block 2 dogs. 
The onus is on the dog owners who let them off leash. I think it's ridiculous to tell people that have an issue with off leash dogs, that they just need to train their dogs better, or be better at blocking the loose dogs.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Shell said:


> Your example of changing footpaths is actually a good comparison to the creation of "informal" (unannounced, unregulated but somewhat accepted) dog parks. The reason is that those footpaths are actually often a problem. People tend to go the shortest and easiest route FOR THEM without regards to the long term consequences that can ruin the trail or park for other people.


It is a good comparison. It just brought to mind the spot on the local trails that has turned into a bit of an impromptu off-leash swimming are (I dunno about you, but I personally prefer swimming to be off-leash, had a bad go of it once on a line). The key of this spot is that everybody there (for the exception of one, that has caused chronic problems for many of us in that area) makes sure their dog stays on the beach area and away from people and dogs on the trail, everybody even polices each other's dogs to a small degree (not enough to be offensive, nobody is disciplining any dogs at worst going "hey, come here"), or at least says "hey, your dog is about to run up there. This group does a pretty good job of doing what is easy/desirable for them, without bothering anyone to any real degree (other than those who find the sight of a dog without a leash offensive, no matter what the dog is doing). 

I will say though, the one person I mentioned above that doesn't keep her dogs down there has made matters difficult for all of us. She does not control her dogs, they are sweet and friendly and wouldn't hurt a fly, but fact is they can and are a nuisance to people, especially those with dogs they are trying to keep on the trail and below threshold. Honestly, she is part of the reason I hardly go there any more, and any time I do, one of the main thoughts in my mind is "I hope I don't run into her" (doesn't help that my last conversation with her almost became a screaming match, even before that I tried to avoid her). I have never seen her dogs leashed....ever. I managed to almost avoid her one time, taking the other route around a large open area. I ended up having to chat to her because she ran the 50m across the field to retrieve her dogs, who had already run that distance to come see Caeda who was off leash and I already had in a down-stay (she didn't budge until they were 5 feet away, then she broke). To be honest, her dogs vs Caeda make me feel a little smug and vindicated....which I don't actually like, I prefer just feeling proud and confident in my own dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I also had a bad experience swimming on a line so I prefer to do it off leash in a safe fenced area (or not at all if that isn't available) if the dog is not reliable off leash. But meh ... I am responsible about off leash and use plenty of common sense ... So I am going to ignore further comments against it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

spotted nikes said:


> And how about when people have 3 dogs. Or there are a couple of loose dogs together running at you. That's happened twice to me recently. Two German Sheps charging mine. A down stay would do nothing, and I can't block 2 dogs.
> The onus is on the dog owners who let them off leash. I think it's ridiculous to tell people that have an issue with off leash dogs, that they just need to train their dogs better, or be better at blocking the loose dogs.


I've been rushed by a pack of three (unfriendly) and a pack of five (friendly, luckily). One dog I could maybe handle. I'd kick it, hit it, choke it out, whatever I had to do. But two or three or five, when I have two dogs of my own to protect? I don't like my odds.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

sassafras said:


> But I want to waaaahhhh!!!
> 
> 
> Also, I think people confuse a spirited debate with true anger/emotion too often. Just sayin'.


I wouldn't call that quote you've given (a few times now) "spirited debate". Nothing really to call it other than emotion. And rudeness.



> RabbleFox said:
> 
> 
> > By that same token then I should be able to pillage and burn down a village because I wanna. Land of the free doesn't mean no rules.
> ...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I also like how some are comparing murder and mugging with breaking leash laws (which when done with consideration and common sense doesn't affect anyone.

What I can't help is if someone with a very reactive dog or someone who is afraid of dogs is there. Like or not dogs are part of society and I am going to play the tough love cars for a moment here and say that if someone is that scared of dogs ... Then they need to work on it. I am very scared of large crowds and public places ... So I got professional help with it.

But seeing my dog on a long line would likely make someone who is that scared of dogs equally nervous and they would probably avoid me I the same manner.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I also like how some are comparing murder and mugging with breaking leash laws (which when done with consideration and common sense doesn't affect anyone.


The murder and mugging comments seemed like hyperbole, pointing out how silly it is to say that anyone who's broken the speed limit has no right to complain about people breaking leash laws. I am sure that no one here truly believes that breaking a leash law is as bad as murdering someone.

On the second point, I beg to differ. If you are taking your dog off leash in a busy/populated area, I can guarantee that you are affecting people. We don't always want to get close enough to let you know.

If you're not seeing anybody on your walk, then I'd agree that you're not affecting anyone, obviously.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The murder and mugging comments seemed like hyperbole, pointing out how silly it is to say that anyone who's broken the speed limit has no right to complain about people breaking leash laws. I am sure that no one here truly believes that breaking a leash law is as bad as murdering someone.
> 
> On the second point, I beg to differ. If you are taking your dog off leash in a busy/populated area, I can guarantee that you are affecting people. We don't always want to get close enough to let you know.
> 
> If you're not seeing anybody on your walk, then I'd agree that you're not affecting anyone, obviously.


What Cran said! My raize and pillage comment was directed at MaDeuce's comment on everything good and fun in America is prohibited so it's ok to break laws. It's not. Burn down a house does not equal my dog is off leash. I do know that. Mine was just an extreme example of "I do what I want in the home of the freeeee".


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

aiw said:


> Its a very interesting question, IMO. To me Desire Paths largely indicate a failure in the system not the people. The whole point of the system is to facilitate use. "Improper" usage often indicated a missing resource IMO or a choice which didn't fully take into account people's actual behaviour. Its easy to argue personal responsibility (although I think the need to follow all rules simply because they're rules is pretty tenuous) but people as a group will only subordinate their desires and convenience to a system so much. A good one makes things easier, not harder.
> 
> I quite like "Leave No Trace" hiking and I think its good policy to follow the recommendations. I'm definitely not arguing against educating the public. But its a little naive to think that the public at large will take an extremely inconvenient route on the only justification that rules are rules. The reasoning needs to be known *and* the actual use and desired use needs to be taken into account.
> 
> I don't really have a conclusion for such general principles and considerations, so I'm not going to take a hard stance for or against Desire Paths, but I do think they're interesting questions.


I think "desire paths" are just that-- what people want to have (shortcuts and such). That should be recognized by urban planners and park designers but it is also common that the shortcuts people use on their own whims are not safe and sustainable for the long term. In that same train of thought, people using on-lead areas for off-leash dogs is an indication of what people want and should be recognized by planners, but those places chosen are also not always the safe and suitable places.

People on the whole aren't good at seeing past their own interests for use of a space. It is easy to see a space as perfect for X use and not go father into the idea of how to balance that use with other competing and/or complimentary uses along with potentially seeking out better locations. Urban planning is full of this kind of thing-- should there be bike lanes or multi-use paths or ride on the road while every subset of bikers prefers something different... should there be kid's playgrounds or dog parks or both but with a fence or without a fence etc etc etc. The conflict happens once a use of a space is officially decided on and announced via signage and then people use it for a contrary action.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> What Cran said! My raize and pillage comment was directed at MaDeuce's comment on everything good and fun in America is prohibited so it's ok to break laws. It's not. Burn down a house does not equal my dog is off leash. I do know that. Mine was just an extreme example of "I do what I want in the home of the freeeee".


On places like public trails or anywhere that has blind corners where it honk I will encounter someone (with a dog or not) I use a flexi leash (I know I am bad but she has an excellent recall and is not a puller ... She is also 30lbs soaking wet and I always buy the giant dog flexi lol) 

But when I am in a park where there is plenty of space to see someone coming, we have off leash time with our chuck it. I always have her leash in my hand and I am ready to put it on and move to a different area of the park.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> The murder and mugging comments seemed like hyperbole, pointing out how silly it is to say that anyone who's broken the speed limit has no right to complain about people breaking leash laws. I am sure that no one here truly believes that breaking a leash law is as bad as murdering someone.
> 
> On the second point, I beg to differ. If you are taking your dog off leash in a busy/populated area, I can guarantee that you are affecting people. We don't always want to get close enough to let you know.
> 
> If you're not seeing anybody on your walk, then I'd agree that you're not affecting anyone, obviously.


There have been very few instances offline where I've approached someone and asked them to leash their dog. That doesn't mean it doesn't make me extremely uncomfortable. I'm just NOT a confrontational person in reality (unless you do something to my dogs....than I turn into a mother bear). I can attest to a lot of people who are the same way.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

aiw said:


> I wouldn't call that quote you've given (a few times now) "spirited debate". Nothing really to call it other than emotion. And rudeness.


I won't argue that the way it was said was rude, but more or less that's what this all boils down to. Immaturity and selfishness. There is NO good excuse out there to have your dog off leash in public spaces that are shared with others that doesn't come down to that.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

All this comparing laws stuff is silly, to be honest. It has nothing to do with anything. A rule is a rule, just because you think it's a dumb rule, don't understand it, or it isn't convenient, doesn't make it okay to break it. Even if a bunch of people decide, okay, this park is for off leash dogs but the signs still say keep your dogs on leash, you're breaking it. The consequences are way different than if you committed murder, obviously, but you are breaking a law just the same. 

If you can find a way to break a leash law without affecting people around you, great, whatever. Have fun. 

But how do you really know when you're affecting people or not when there are people all over the place? Like others have said maybe they are too scared to confront you. Maybe they are like me and even though we want to we can't get close enough to tell you. To say you are breaking leash laws in highly populated areas for any other reason than it's what's convenient for you, you want to do it and you think your dog can handle it, forget everyone else they can just go somewhere else or deal with it, is an excuse. 

It's pretty inconsiderate, bottom line. People scared of dogs, get over it. Got a DA dog? Train it, or go somewhere else. Both of those things are a lot harder then leashing your dog, why is it on us to accommodate you when you are the one breaking the rules? YOU want to break leash laws, YOU train your dog, go somewhere else, and get over it. It sounds really rude but that's what people who are off leash in populated areas are being.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

> It's pretty inconsiderate, bottom line. People scared of dogs, get over it. Got a DA dog? Train it, or go somewhere else. Both of those things are a lot harder then leashing your dog, why is it on us to accommodate you when you are the one breaking the rules? YOU want to break leash laws, YOU train your dog, go somewhere else, and get over it. It sounds really rude but that's what people who are off leash in populated areas are being.


You said it better than I could!


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## LadyB (Mar 7, 2013)

As someone with a generally very nice dog who is always on leash in our unofficially off-leash and very busy park, I've been reading this thread off and on with some interest and frustration. I know that there is some consensus about the difference between populated and unpopulated areas, but I just want to emphasize this quote from Sarah~:



> But how do you really know when you're affecting people or not when there are people all over the place? Like others have said maybe they are too scared to confront you. Maybe they are like me and even though we want to we can't get close enough to tell you.


...and add an anecdote and some thoughts. There is a problem dog (and owner) in my park who is there every day off leash. The dog attacks other dogs and has 0% recall when it decides it wants to go for a dog. The owner ignores the problem, though apparently many people have talked to her about it. Her dog attacked my dog and, after that, I avoided the park whenever that dog/owner was there (which meant that I avoided the park, which is a block away from my house, at least once a day, but usually twice). Over the next year, I talked to at least 20 dog owners in the neighborhood who said that they don't go to the park because of that dog, and/or just leave the park as soon as that dog shows up. All of these owners were upset about the situation, all of them thought that there was a problem with that dog/owner, all of them had curtailed their usage of a public park because of the dog/owner, and about 90% of them had not talked to the owner because they were too afraid to approach her when her dog was there. So the practical upshot is that many nice, friendly, social dogs are not coming to a park because of one unpredictable unleashed dog who has had many incidents of problematic behavior in front of many people including other owners of dogs who are running off leash. Ultimately, I got fed up and yelled at the lady to leash her dog, and then went over and told her that any time she sees me she better leash her dog up for as long as I'm in the park, or I'm calling the cops. She tested me once, and now she leashes up as soon as she sees me. 

This is where it gets interesting for me: The time she tested me, another offleasher yelled at me about how horrible it was going to be for "everyone" if I called the cops. My response was that he should, therefore, very much want this problematic dog leashed. Right? Because really, if you're breaking the rule, you should want to protect the circumstances that allow you to do that safely and without police intervention or other people—people who *aren't* benefitting from breaking the rule—getting put into the position where they have to enforce the rule. But I think this is where it breaks down, this idea that everyone should just relax and yay dogs are playing offleash in the park, and let's all be free and darn this society with all of its annoying rules. People who let their dogs off leash in an on-leash park, should take it upon themselves to police the owners of those dogs who should not be off leash in the park. Since you and your dog are benefiting from this laxity and the generosity (or silence) of your fellow citizens, you should be willing to step up and curtail the problematic off-leashers and deal with all of the consequences of that. Why? _Because you actually get something out of it._ You get to keep letting your dog off leash in an on-leash park. But I think that what happens instead is that the off-leashers don't want to say anything because, well, we're all breaking the rules and wouldn't it be hypocritical, and it's all so ambiguous, and it will be uncomfortable socially for me to tell someone that their dog can't do what my dog is doing, etc., and let's just let the dogs be dogs....so as long as MY dog is OK, and MY dog doesn't get hurt, and MY dog gets its exercise, and no one is yelling at ME about MY dog, then I'm going to keep my mouth shut while THAT dog goes and sticks its head a baby carriage while the dad is freaking out, THAT dog poops under the swing set in the playground, THAT dog pins that on-leash dog, THAT dog mows down a child, THAT dog bolts across a busy street after a squirrel, THAT dog terrorizes a toddler, THAT dog approaches a dog where clearly the owner doesn't want their dog approached, etc.

Many people on this thread who let their dogs off leash in on-leash areas have said "yes, there are some dogs who really should not be offleash." But I don't think (I have read most but not all of this thread, so pardon me if I've missed something) anyone has mentioned actually trying to do something about those dogs and their owners. For some reason, it's up to those of us who are not breaking the rule to maintain some sort of standards for off-leash behavior. That doesn't make any sense to me. 

I think that there are very few dogs who can handle being off leash in a crowded park. What makes a dog able to handle it has nothing to do with the dog's friendliness, it has to do with training and owner control and the owner understanding what is rude and unacceptable dog behavior, and most people—I would say 99% of people, including myself—do not have dogs who are that well-trained. Those of you who do should not just demonstrate, but also set and *enforce* those standards and accept the consequences of doing so. To me, that's a reasonable trade-off for breaking the law.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

But everyone is referencing rude and out of control dogs which I have neither (like I said, the ones I wouldn't be able to trust off lead stay on lead). My dogs are not rude, nor out of control so yes, I am or would be mildly offended if someone called the cops on me or yelled at me just because I have my dog off leash and I am minding my own business.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> But everyone is referencing rude and out of control dogs which I have neither (like I said, the ones I wouldn't be able to trust off lead stay on lead). My dogs are not rude, nor out of control so yes, I am or would be mildly offended if someone called the cops on me or yelled at me just because I have my dog off leash and I am minding my own business.


You are right about the references. I will say though, Caeda can be rude sometimes, but I can control her enough to keep her from being rude to people when we are out walking (unless they walk up to her and stick their face in hers.....then they are getting a face-wash), that said, if anyone walking on the trail ever stopped at a distance and yelled "please leash your dog" for any reason, maybe they are uncomfortable who knows...I would happily leash up for them, if they automatically said "I'm calling the cops", and Caeda wasn't doing anything other than sitting waiting for them to go by, then I might take offence, but I'd have to swallow it and take the punishment since I took the risk. I don't feel that it is my right on those public trails to have her off leash, though I do on occasion judge that the circumstances allow it to be done respectfully and safely. To me, if I put Caeda in a down-stay off the trail until people (and/or dogs) are past, I am being respectful and safe, though I'll happily leash up if someone tells me that the lack of the leash makes them uncomfortable in the least. It is those people who don't control their dogs, assume everybody just loves an out of control dog, and sometimes don't even BRING a leash that cause the problems and make lots of people uncomfortable and even scared of offleash dogs, even those who are controlled. 
By the way, Lady B, good post. I do agree that those of us that break the rules and go leashless should police each other, as should those without dogs, and those who use leashes. If Caeda is off leash and is being a pest, I appreciate any kick in the butt that reminds me I'm the one that's actually being the jerk, and that I need to do something about it, which could include both working on her training/manners and recognizing more situations where a leash is needed.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I typed this whole huge reply and lost it! Dangit.

I'll just hit the highlights. I probably would call AC if there was an aggressive dog being let loose but in all my years there I've never seen a fight. There are some big digs who play too rough for shy Pete so we leash up and leave if they're around. Not a big deal to accommodate them.

For xena it seems we feel the same way coming from opposite sides of the issue. I find it very frustrating and selfish that in a neighborhood where every park and street has a leash law you (general) would insist on ousting a community fixture thats functioned happily and safely for more than 20 years. So do i feel bad that reactive dogs should avoid this one small space? Not really. There is room for both of us to have facilities. I don't begrudge you your safe areas, we leash up everywhere else.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> You are right about the references. I will say though, Caeda can be rude sometimes, but I can control her enough to keep her from being rude to people when we are out walking (unless they walk up to her and stick their face in hers.....then they are getting a face-wash), that said, if anyone walking on the trail ever stopped at a distance and yelled "please leash your dog" for any reason, maybe they are uncomfortable who knows...I would happily leash up for them, if they automatically said "I'm calling the cops", and Caeda wasn't doing anything other than sitting waiting for them to go by, then I might take offence, but I'd have to swallow it and take the punishment since I took the risk. I don't feel that it is my right on those public trails to have her off leash, though I do on occasion judge that the circumstances allow it to be done respectfully and safely. To me, if I put Caeda in a down-stay off the trail until people (and/or dogs) are past, I am being respectful and safe, though I'll happily leash up if someone tells me that the lack of the leash makes them uncomfortable in the least. It is those people who don't control their dogs, assume everybody just loves an out of control dog, and sometimes don't even BRING a leash that cause the problems and make lots of people uncomfortable and even scared of offleash dogs, even those who are controlled.
> By the way, Lady B, good post. I do agree that those of us that break the rules and go leashless should police each other, as should those without dogs, and those who use leashes. If Caeda is off leash and is being a pest, I appreciate any kick in the butt that reminds me I'm the one that's actually being the jerk, and that I need to do something about it, which could include both working on her training/manners and recognizing more situations where a leash is needed.


Yes that's all I am saying ... And if she ever did something not allowed (like rush someone or their dog or whatever ... She wouldn't, because she is very shy and aversive of strange dogs and humans and even keeps to herself at a dog park) then she would be put on a line and WE would leave immediately and she would lose "free" privileges until she could earn them again.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

This has definitely turned into a thread where I start losing respect for certain members and get to laugh at the stupid arguments being made. 

Like aiw, I do think this can be an interesting discussion, especially viewed through different lenses. 

Legally: I'm not even going to pretend I can argue law. But I think the problem is that there are laws specifically forbidding an action that are being violated in the case of letting dogs off leash. And then if something happens, you are a legally liable. 

Ethically: I could see it passing ethically if you took a utilitarian view of it and if it was in the right area. 200 people benefit, only 5 people are inconvenienced, etc. But there are so many schools of ethics (just finished an introductory course on morality, so I'm sure there are others reading this that have much more knowledge in this area); do we do what makes us happy? What our local area has deemed as right/wrong? Do we use ethics of care? Do we look at the consequences/intentions? I think generally speaking, if you knowingly disregard a rule with questionable reasons and someone comes to harm because of it, it is a morally grey action at best.

Also--laughing at some of the posts. Get over phobias? Just become an expert on strange dogs? It is unreasonable to just expect everyone to be an expert on dogs like DJEtzel seems to be implying. Not to mention, some dogs are very subtle and hard to read if you aren't familiar with them. 

The problem is that most of us are using anecdotal evidence as well.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

aiw said:


> I find it very frustrating and selfish that in a neighborhood where every park and street has a leash law you (general) would insist on ousting a community fixture thats functioned happily and safely for more than 20 years. So do i feel bad that reactive dogs should avoid this one small space? Not really. There is room for both of us to have facilities. I don't begrudge you your safe areas, we leash up everywhere else.


this, mostly. And I don't have reactive dogs but I do have dogs in areas and situations where other dogs are obnoxious, detrimental, and make me look like a crazy person ("service" yorkie in walmart when I'm out training the labs, anyone?)

That being said, I'm not of the "just because I won't ever be able to partake in this means nobody else should" crowd.

As in, I find drunk people really obnoxious. I would love to be able to go out at night to have a [single!] drink with friends and not get harassed. It isn't even legal to harass people or be blackout drunk in public! Buuuuuuuuuuuut, it happens. So what do I do? Choose to drink at non peak times so everyone else can get schwasty without me getting angry. Does this mean I rarely drink because friends dont want to go out at non peak times? Yeah, but I'm the one who is bothered by something ultimately harmless, so I don't expect everyone to suddenly become law abiding citizens on Friday nights just because I want them to.

OBVIOUSLY those of you who have a reactive dog scarred by an offleash dog that ran around a blind corner have a reason to be annoyed. But people who are not affected in a LASTING way?

Idk, I think if there were offleash non-thunderdome options it wouldn't happen nearly as much. Apparently there are in these utopian canadian suburbs  but not here. So, I take a calculated risk and yes, I mess up sometimes. Not going to deny that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CrimsonAccent said:


> This has definitely turned into a thread where I start losing respect for certain members and get to laugh at the stupid arguments being made.
> 
> Like aiw, I do think this can be an interesting discussion, especially viewed through different lenses.
> 
> ...


Some ppl with dog phobias are very irrational and over the top in the way they act, I mean I am terrified of spiders but I don't lose my mind when confronted with a spider. If I am walking and notice a spiderweb as I walk by, I keep on walking, it's not hurting me. And folks afraid of dogs should extend the sMe cursesy to those of us who are minding our own business in a park.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you are in a busy park, you are not minding your own business. You are up in everyone else's.

To clarify, I have less of an issue with people taking over part of a park with defined borders and making it an easy-to-spot off-leash area. A couple of people have described areas like that in their parks, and that's easy for someone with reactive dogs to see and avoid. I don't love that, but I can deal with it. However, I think it's rude and inconsiderate to walk your dog off-leash wherever you please in a busy park.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> If you are in a busy park, you are not minding your own business. You are up in everyone else's.
> 
> To clarify, I have less of an issue with people taking over part of a park with defined borders and making it an easy-to-spot off-leash area. A couple of people have described areas like that in their parks, and that's easy for someone with reactive dogs to see and avoid. I don't love that, but I can deal with it. However, I think it's rude and inconsiderate to walk your dog off-leash wherever you please in a busy park.


Again just to clarify- I think it is rude and inconsiderate as well to do so in a busy park.

I seriously think everyone is really agreeing on the same things, its just really hard to tell online


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Some ppl with dog phobias are very irrational and over the top in the way they act, I mean I am terrified of spiders but I don't lose my mind when confronted with a spider. If I am walking and notice a spiderweb as I walk by, I keep on walking, it's not hurting me. And folks afraid of dogs should extend the sMe cursesy to those of us who are minding our own business in a park.


ONCE AGAIN, just like the children example, you have no reasonable expectation for the world to be free of spiders. In an area with leash laws, people have a reasonable expectation of not encountering off leash dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Some ppl with dog phobias are very irrational and over the top in the way they act, I mean I am terrified of spiders but I don't lose my mind when confronted with a spider. If I am walking and notice a spiderweb as I walk by, I keep on walking, it's not hurting me. And folks afraid of dogs should extend the sMe cursesy to those of us who are minding our own business in a park.


A phobia is by definition irrational. It's technically an anxiety disorder... People who are phobic generally understand their behavior is totally irrational but still suffer immense anxiety over certain things. I have an irrational fear of loud noises which means I hide when it's the 4th of July or at birthdays with kids and balloons. I know a balloon can't hurt me but I get incredibly anxious around them. My sister is very seriously arachnophobic and in class would have to be able to leave while the class was studying spiders. She'd break down crying and trying to get away from the picture. (She's still absolutely terrified btw). 

It sucks when people don't recognize phobias too. I belong to a family that loves shooting fireworks and they make fun of my anxiety on the 4th a lot. It sucks. On the other hand spiders don't bother me at all and I don't really understand arachnophobia. To me they are so small I dont get why you'd be scared of them. 

So yeah... it's dumb to go running and screaming if you're dog-phobic because that will just get the dog's attention but I understand they really can't always help it. 

There's a big difference between a fear and a phobia.



Rescued said:


> I seriously think everyone is really agreeing on the same things, its just really hard to tell online


I think so too- at least most people.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

d_ray said:


> This topic isn't meant to stir up a debate, and I apologize in advance if it does. I don't want to be irresponsible to my neighbours.


 After 25 pages I forgot what the OP originally asked. I did not think that this thread would get this response! Who would have guessed. 

To me you want to go to a place that only seems to be inhabited by you and let your dog run amok is up to you. At a crazy busy park, I think the last statements speaks volume. I don't want to be irresponsible to my neighbors. To me,, my neighbor are those that are around me in a park. There are other laws besides leash laws at a neighborhood park and I would not want someone to take it upon themselves to decide that it was okay for them to disobey those other laws.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I do want to say ther are LOT of places that are completely inappropriate to be offleash. Sidewalks are a big one IMO as well as walkways, many parks and anywhere inside obviously- or at least you'd think it would be obvious.

The other point I made in my (deleted UGH!) post was that to xena while it's easy (and fair) to say "rules are rules are rules and that's it" it's a terrible way to approach system design. People WILL violate rules that are unreasonably inconvenient or poorly planned. Now I want to be clear I'm not using this as a justification for ME to break leash laws. Personal responsibility is important and valid. But as a general consideration the length to which people will go out if their way to obey the system is a really important consideration. Rules need to take this into account to be useful. Most people will roll through a stop sign at night, speed a little or jaywalk. There are countless instances of such small civil disobedience. 

Shell referenced "broken window theory" which is a whole discussion itself! If you look around it happens in all sorts Instances already. Your neighbors already are ignoring some of the rules already. A good system is made with an eye for that. Again, that is NOT an argument for me personally to break the law. But it's probably a good argument to create an offleash space in our area. If there isn't an outlet provided for an activity, people might just make one!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

aiw said:


> I do want to say ther are LOT of places that are completely inappropriate to be offleash. Sidewalks are a big one IMO as well as walkways, many parks and anywhere inside obviously- or at least you'd think it would be obvious.


I wish it were more obvious... The sheer amount of times I had to tell people to leash their dogs in the pet store was ridiculous. And it is posted that all dogs must be leashed. Multiple times. Everywhere.

And the guy in the Target parking lot with his maltese just makes me want to yell out my window.

And the people who walk their golden doodle off leash in my neighborhood. The dog only walks all the way up to our door, 50ft off the street to annoy Merlin through the glass.

Common sense needs to be more common. XD


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

aiw said:


> I do want to say ther are LOT of places that are completely inappropriate to be offleash. Sidewalks are a big one IMO as well as walkways, many parks and anywhere inside obviously- or at least you'd think it would be obvious.
> 
> The other point I made in my (deleted UGH!) post was that to xena while it's easy (and fair) to say "rules are rules are rules and that's it" it's a terrible way to approach system design. People WILL violate rules that are unreasonably inconvenient or poorly planned. Now I want to be clear I'm not using this as a justification for ME to break leash laws. Personal responsibility is important and valid. But as a general consideration the length to which people will go out if their way to obey the system is a really important consideration. Rules need to take this into account to be useful. Most people will roll through a stop sign at night, speed a little or jaywalk. There are countless instances of such small civil disobedience.
> 
> Shell referenced "broken window theory" which is a whole discussion itself! If you look around it happens in all sorts Instances already. Your neighbors already are ignoring some of the rules already. A good system is made with an eye for that. Again, that is NOT an argument for me personally to break the law. But it's probably a good argument to create an offleash space in our area. If there isn't an outlet provided for an activity, people might just make one!


I think you mean me? 

The rules are rules comment was more to emphasize my main point which is that in a public park with a leash law, it should not be on me to look out for off leash dogs. I would be pretty angry if I chose to go to a park specifically because dogs are supposed to be on leash there and I want to take Eko to the park but I see a big group of dogs off leash. If I was new to your area I would have no idea everyone has just sort of decided that the leash law doesn't work for them so they're going to do it anyway. I can't go over there, number one because of Eko, and number two there is a big group of you and only one of me. Even if I did, I would be told well this is how we've done it for years and it's not likely to change, which at least for me would make me pretty mad. Why does a group get to just pick and chose what rules work for them and when, especially when it affects everybody who uses the park and who have just as much of a right to use it as you guys?

And I wouldn't feel bad calling the police on the whole group, I have no idea how well your dogs are trained and again, only one of me. IMO, if the rule is so inconvenient then people should be working on trying to change it instead of just doing it and everyone else should just go around if they aren't comfortable with it, which goes back to what I said at the beginning of this post. It's not on me to go around a group so the group can have fun doing something that is not allowed, it's on the group to find a way to break the rules without bothering ME (or anyone else that is uncomfortable with off leash dogs) until the rule changes. 

Like your stop sign example, if you roll through a stop sign at night when there is no one there, you aren't bothering anybody. If you do it somewhere that's busier, even if a bunch of other people do it and have their whole lives, you are bothering somebody, and even if you are a great driver accidents happen. If you are willing to take responsibility for that, that's your business, but if someone reports you and you get a ticket you can't blame them for not going along with what you and other people do all the time. You can't say, well, they should just avoid that intersection because they know we're just going to do it anyway. It's a public road, and you have to SHARE it with the public.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Some ppl with dog phobias are very irrational and over the top in the way they act, I mean I am terrified of spiders but I don't lose my mind when confronted with a spider. If I am walking and notice a spiderweb as I walk by, I keep on walking, it's not hurting me. And folks afraid of dogs should extend the sMe cursesy to those of us who are minding our own business in a park.


I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the argument you are putting forth.

The whole point of a phobia is that it is an *irrational fear*, and I think we agree on that. So why are we expecting someone with an irrational fear to act rationally? I don't have what I would classify as a phobia, but I do admit a bias in this--strange dogs make me extremely nervous having been charged and snapped at by loose dogs in the past. I count my self lucky that I haven't suffered a bite. I also took my childhood dog out for less walks specifically because I was trying to avoid areas with loose, strange dogs so it wouldn't happen again and being a kid with no access to transport, it wasn't very viable.

And though I'm guilty of it in this very post, just because you feel that way doesn't mean you should expect others to; I'm not saying that you expect everyone to share the same opinion, but it seems like your argument is supported specifically by *your* personal experience of phobias, and that should be taken into account. 

Also, are you talking about leashed dogs or unleashed dogs in a park? That is two completely different scenarios. In addition, a "park" is typically a public, shared space. You can do what you want on your own property. Private vs public is another dimension of this debate to be considered.

Since I never gave my opinion on the issue: I see it as situational (like many others I'm sure). If you can have your dog off leash responsibly, in an area that you have a reasonable expectations of not running into others, go wild. But if we are talking about the lowest common denominator: leash your dog up.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> Again just to clarify- I think it is rude and inconsiderate as well to do so in a busy park.
> 
> I seriously think everyone is really agreeing on the same things, its just really hard to tell online


I'm beginning to think this too. We just can't see the situations everyone else is describing. >.< 

My anecdotes apparently sound like a huge park with a ton of activity, but it's not a park nor does it typically have much activity. Open trails that you can see people coming down, with plenty of chance and notice to leash or move your dog. Another is a field in the middle of the city with limited activity and you can see 50-100 yards in every direction and I rarely see anyone there. But people are still going to be seen from time to time, and I'm not sure why those against off leash play are ok with a small amount of people being "inconvenienced" but not a larger group? Shouldn't the point still stand? What makes it ok for some, in your eyes, and not others? That one person we see when we're out could be the one to break down in a panic attack from seeing my dog.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

What percent of the population are we talking about here that has a phobia (aka irrational panic-attack inducing fear) of seeing dogs offleash, even if they NEVER come in contact with them and the dogs are at a distance?

I would venture to say that is a pretty small segment of the population, no?

And I think I'm hearing that law against X = reasonable expectation that you won't encounter X, right?

So... if I have a phobia (defined as above) of pit bulls and I go to a park that is within city limits of a city with BSL, and I see a (leashed and under control!) pit bull in the distance, and I NEVER come in contact with it nor do I get close to it, then it is perfectly reasonable, rational, and nobody would fault me for calling the police and having the dog seized and killed, right?

And if someone posted the situation above in a thread, nobody would object or wonder if the OP did the correct thing, right?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Ha. I think I'm more upset by the "just get over it" attitude towards phobias than the off-leash discussion. But then I have severe anxiety. I have a phobia of telephones. It's a bit more complicated, but that's the way it manifests. Super crazy silly, right? Who's scared of PHONES?! But I will literally have a panic attack thinking about making a call to a stranger. Full on hyperventilating, sweating, raised blood pressure and heart rate, blurred vision, teeth chattering panic attack. 

Now to most people that just seems ridiculous. I get a lot of "oh, just stop overreacting and do it already. It's not that big of a deal." I'm sure several people reading this think the same thing. Thing is, it's not that easy. If you can just walk by something that you have a phobia of (spiders, dogs, the rain, whatever...) you either don't have a PHOBIA or you've been through a lot of therapy.

So saying that people who are phobic of loose dogs (or even just really really scared, either way) should stop and recognize that the dog isn't out of control and then just doodle-dee-doo go on with their day is... a little insane. Or at the very least completely unsympathetic.

I don't have a phobia or even a fear of dogs, I just don't like being rushed. But being on the receiving end of the "just get over it" line, it really gets my dander up. Obviously. Hahaha. Just... please try to have a little compassion for people like that. It might seem stupid or silly to you, but to that person it's very very real. 

To get back onto topic, though. I think after reading all of this thread the GENERAL consensus seems to be:

Big wide open space where you never run into people: Off leash is acceptable
Private property with permission: Off leash is a go
Completely off the beaten path trails where you have never seen another human in 20 years of walking: Go for it
Big busy public park/urban area with lots of people and dogs and kids etc: Please stay on leash for the safety and comfort of everyone around you (AND the safety of you own dogs, for that matter)

PS: Also, please don't take the above ranty phobia thing as directly against anyone who has posted anything in this thread. IT's a very prevalent attitude everywhere and it's just something I'm super sensitive about.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Rescued said:


> What percent of the population are we talking about here that has a phobia (aka irrational panic-attack inducing fear) of seeing dogs offleash, even if they NEVER come in contact with them and the dogs are at a distance?
> 
> I would venture to say that is a pretty small segment of the population, no?


Yes. Small percent. But we also have to take into account people who don't like dogs, people who walk DA or aggressive dogs, people who walk small dogs that could be injured, and basically everyone who isn't you in the park. There are other kinds of people are inconvenienced by off leash dogs. Not just dog phobic people.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Yes. Small percent. But we also have to take into account people who don't like dogs, people who walk DA or aggressive dogs, people who walk small dogs that could be injured, and basically everyone who isn't you in the park. There are other kinds of people are inconvenienced by off leash dogs. Not just dog phobic people.


But none of those people (don't like, DA dogs, ect) are affected by an offleash dog that NEVER comes up to them and that is far away enough that their dog NEVER sees and NEVER reacts to. So... if it doesn't alter what you do, is it even inconvenient?



> in·con·ve·nience noun \ˌin-kən-ˈvē-nyən(t)s\
> : trouble or problems
> 
> : something that causes trouble or problems


So, if the offleash dog doesn't come in contact with your dogs or alter their behavior in any way, then its not causing problems, correct? And if it isn't causing trouble or problems, then is it inconveniencing you?

Inconvenienced is not the same thing as a phobia. So is everyone (general) making a case that nobody should be confronted with a phobia, or nobody should be inconvienenced?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Rescued said:


> But none of those people (don't like, DA dogs, ect) are affected by an offleash dog that NEVER comes up to them and that is far away enough that their dog NEVER sees and NEVER reacts to. So... if it doesn't alter what you do, is it even inconvenient?
> 
> Inconvenienced is not the same thing as a phobia. So is everyone (general) arguing against phobias, or arguing against invoncienenceing people?


Hey, if I can't see you, I can't report you. If you are so deep in the woods that I don't even know you are there, I can't complain. If you are way, wayyyyy out in the country, my dog can't see you so I'm not caring. 

Just don't be romping around in local park and pretending like no one there cares. If we can see you, we care. And as great as DF dog are, the majority of off leash dogs that I've run into are not well trained. Like at all. Bae would have ripped into those dogs if I went to any of our local parks with off leash dogs. Merlin is small so now I'm worried about him getting chomped by a big off leash dog. You'd think that people who own known aggressive dogs would leash up but I've met a fair amount that don't. "Oh! I'm sorry.I didn't expect you to be walking your dog here! My dog doesn't like other dogs. Let me grab him. Fido come. Fidoooo. Fido? FIDO?" *commences chasing Fido whilst he tries to eat Merlin* What? On this well traveled path? There are people every 50ft. Bad place for off leash dogs. 

I agree with Effsia's list of good off leash places.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

All I'm pointing out is that there is a weird inability (by everyone in general, not you) to qualify everything as OK or not OK based on the law 

Based on the pit bull example... strangely enough, it doesn't always work out to against the law = banned = doesn't matter if it actually directly affects me or not = call and report for removal.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

If I see your dogs off leash, and I don't know how well trained they are so I can't go into the park because of my DA dog, then yes, I am being affected and inconvenienced. I might care more about the big group of people being inconvenienced if they were following the rules, but being inconvenienced because I'm reporting you for breaking the rules doesn't really concern me. If that makes sense.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> If we can see you, we care.


Just kind of arguing for arguments sake because I'm never going to take my dogs anywhere we might run into anybody (but gasp! I might be inconveniencing the teenagers who shoot up street signs! They have to go shoot signs on another road, poor guys ), but I'm sure lots of people don't like what they see in lots of places. If it's not directly affecting you and nobody's getting hurt, does it matter if you can see them? If I see a couple making out in a remote section of the park---which is probably illegal under some kind of ordinance---I'll just give them a wide berth and carry on. As long as I'm not tripping over them in the playground area, what does it matter if I can see them at a distance?


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Just kind of arguing for arguments sake because I'm never going to take my dogs anywhere we might run into anybody (but gasp! I might be inconveniencing the teenagers who shoot up street signs! They have to go shoot signs on another road, poor guys ), but I'm sure lots of people don't like what they see in lots of places. If it's not directly affecting you and nobody's getting hurt, does it matter if you can see them? If I see a couple making out in a remote section of the park---which is probably illegal under some kind of ordinance---I'll just give them a wide berth and carry on. As long as I'm not tripping over them in the playground area, what does it matter if I can see them at a distance?


I think it depends on what's going on, using other examples kind of makes things confusing because everyone has their own tolerance levels for different things. Couples making out in the park, ew, but I'd leave them alone. A pit bull on a leash far away from me? I don't like to call dogs pits just by looking at them so I wouldn't. If the dog was off leash on the sidewalk or in a park, parking lot, whatever, yeah, I would. A group of dogs off leash in an on leash park? Hell yeah, I would.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Wow, did I ever open a can of worms. I apologize as I didn't realize this would stir up so much debate. The general concensus seems to be, as long as it's an a secluded place and you are considerate, than most people don't have an issue with it. I will continue our off leash hiking as long as the trails remain desolate. We may rethink our plans in the summer if the trails start getting busier.

One point I would like to make, and I'm not sure if it has been made before, but hiking with my dog off leash is a lot more of a challenge than walking with a leash (for us). I'm not doing this for me, but because I feel like the benefits for Jewel are huge. To me, this makes me a responsible dog owner for being overly concerned with my dog's mental and physical well being. We use our off leash hiking for training. I am constantly calling Jewel back and rewarding her and working on dealing with distractions, etc. I have to continuously monitor her and the hikes are "not a walk in the park" so to speak. It would be much easier to strap a leash on her and walk her, however; I find our off leash hikes to be so stimulating for her. I am giving her the mental stimulation she needs as well as the physical stimulation. She is an extremely smart-high energy breed and the mental and physical stimulation goes a long way. 

I guess I just wanted to point out that I'm not taking her off leash to be lazy and not have to watch her. It's the opposite. She walks incredibly well on leash. I really have seen a drastic improvement in her well being since these hikes. We get home and she is mentally and physically exhausted.

I can see both sides of the arugment and honestly, until now, I didn't realize there were people so passionate about not breaking leash laws. I guess I never saw it from their point of view because my dog is not reactive nor DA. Thank you for bringing up so many good points because it makes me see things differently and I will be extra considerate.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Rescued said:


> And I think I'm hearing that law against X = reasonable expectation that you won't encounter X, right?
> 
> So... if I have a phobia (defined as above) of pit bulls and I go to a park that is within city limits of a city with BSL, and I see a (leashed and under control!) pit bull in the distance, and I NEVER come in contact with it nor do I get close to it, then it is perfectly reasonable, rational, and nobody would fault me for calling the police and having the dog seized and killed, right?
> 
> And if someone posted the situation above in a thread, nobody would object or wonder if the OP did the correct thing, right?


I'm getting tired of all of these hypothetical examples, but... yeah, you'd be within your rights to report it (although in many places with newer BSL laws, pits that were around before the law passed have been grandfathered in, so that hypothetical pit may be legal), but there's a big difference between reporting someone with a loose dog who will, at most, be ticketed, and reporting someone whose dog could be seized and killed. I don't think anyone here likes to see innocent dogs killed, whether the law says they can be or not. Like we've said MANY times now on this thread, we're discussing one particular law (the leash law), and none of these other laws cited have anything to do with whether or not we want to see _that_ law enforced.

Plus there's the whole thing where we intelligent dog people know that well-managed pits are no more dangerous than any other dog, so we wouldn't see a leashed one as a threat -- whereas a loose dog of any breed could be. Different situation, doesn't really apply to this debate.

"But people with phobias!" isn't the main argument against off-leash dogs, either. There are far more people who are just nervous around dogs, or have reactive dogs that could seriously hurt or kill a loose rushing dog, or have small dogs that could be seriously hurt or killed _by_ a loose rushing dog than there are people with genuine phobias. You are much more likely to see people of all of those former categories on a walk than you are to see a phobic person, and you should be considerate of them.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> I think it depends on what's going on, using other examples kind of makes things confusing because everyone has their own tolerance levels for different things. Couples making out in the park, ew, but I'd leave them alone. A pit bull on a leash far away from me? I don't like to call dogs pits just by looking at them so I wouldn't. If the dog was off leash on the sidewalk or in a park, parking lot, whatever, yeah, I would. A group of dogs off leash in an on leash park? Hell yeah, I would.


So... why do couples making out in a park (illegal) who aren't directly bothering you get a pardon, but offleash dogs (illegal) who aren't bothering you don't? I guess its because something *could* happen, am I right?

I also hope you're never suddenly forced into moving into a place that has breed restrictions.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> but there's a big difference between reporting someone with a loose dog who will, at most, be ticketed, and reporting someone whose dog could be seized and killed.


Well, if you live in a place with BSL, who is to say the seized offleash dog makes it out alive if its deemed a pit type mutt? Also, here we have a TON of restrictions on getting an impounded dog out, and a lot of dogs get killed because someone did something like call the police when the dog got out, and the owner has 72 hours to come up with hundreds for s/n, impound fees, updated shots, ect. And if they dont have $300 lying around? Adios doggie.



> Plus there's the whole thing where we intelligent dog people know that well-managed pits are no more dangerous than any other dog, so we wouldn't see a leashed one as a threat -- whereas a loose dog of any breed could be. Different situation, doesn't really apply to this debate.


But as we've established (re: everyone telling DJEtzel that she shouldn't expect people to know dog behavior) a lot of people have phobias of pits, and don't know that they aren't more dangerous, see what I'm saying? Just because YOU know something to be true doesn't mean OTHERS do 

"


> But people with phobias!" isn't the main argument against off-leash dogs, either.


Well somehow it got thrown in here. Because if its not actually inconvienencing anyone, there could still be people scared of dogs!!!!



> There are far more people who are just nervous around dogs, or have reactive dogs that could seriously hurt or kill a loose rushing dog, or have small dogs that could be seriously hurt or killed by a loose rushing dog than there are people with genuine phobias. You are much more likely to see people of all of those former categories on a walk than you are to see a phobic person, and you should be considerate of them.


I don't think I disagreed with this?

Let me also say I'm not advocating for offleash dogs all over the place. *What I am saying is that this argument of "No offleash dogs in areas with leash laws!" has a TON of nuances that I think a lot of people are missing.*

Also, I love to debate


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Rescued said:


> So... why do couples making out in a park (illegal) who aren't directly bothering you get a pardon, but offleash dogs (illegal) who aren't bothering you don't? I guess its because something *could* happen, am I right?
> 
> I also hope you're never suddenly forced into moving into a place that has breed restrictions.


What kind of making out are we talking? Are they ripping each others' clothes off? Because if they're not, it's tasteless but most likely not illegal, come on. Also, _whether or not people break or enforce other, completely unrelated laws has nothing to do with leash laws_. If we're gonna go anecdotal, can we talk about real situations related to off-leash dogs instead of all of this hypothetical nonsense, please?



> Well, if you live in a place with BSL, who is to say the seized offleash dog makes it out alive if its deemed a pit type mutt?


Your example was of a leashed pit, so I wouldn't be calling about that one. If you're talking a loose pit in an area with BSL... well that owner is pretty stupid, huh? If you're gonna break TWO laws, you'd better be damn careful about it and not have your illegal dog running loose in a busy area. If someone calls and reports you, you only have yourself to blame.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Also, whether or not people break or enforce other, completely unrelated laws has nothing to do with leash laws. If we're gonna go anecdotal, can we talk about real situations related to off-leash dogs instead of all of this hypothetical nonsense, please?


That's my point. "Completely unrelated laws" ARE STILL LAWS, and don't matter any more or less than leash laws do.




> Your example was of a leashed pit, so I wouldn't be calling about that one.


 So... the pit is illegal (BSL) but you don't want to report that. Why? Because the pit isn't affecting you...



> If you're talking a loose pit in an area with BSL... well that owner is pretty stupid, huh? If you're gonna break TWO laws, you'd better be damn careful about it and not have your illegal dog running loose in a busy area. If someone calls and reports you, you only have yourself to blame.


I agree.

Okay I think you're missing the point I'm making.

The point I am making: If the dog isn't bothering anyone or showing a sign that it is about to bother someone WHY IN THE WORLD would you call AC to seize the dog and ticket the owners?

That is what gets me. Want to keep dogs alive? Cut down on the calls to AC that waste time and money so they can be doing other things, cut down on the amount of dogs that are impounded with fees that many owners cannot afford to pay.

If the dog ain't bothering you, leave it. 

(and Crantastic this is NOT to you in particular, this is in general)


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> ONCE AGAIN, just like the children example, you have no reasonable expectation for the world to be free of spiders. In an area with leash laws, people have a reasonable expectation of not encountering off leash dogs.


Also once again it is equally unreasonable to expect a world to be free of dogs. It is inevitable that you will see a dog somewhere, off leash or not. So I'm sorry but I feel that if someone does have an irrational fear of dogs then that is there problem ... Not mine. You know what they say about trying to please all of the ppl all of the time. When I am out with my dog I am out FOR my dog, not to please or go out of my way to accommodate every single person I encounter ... If I did that I would never get anything done with my dog if I did that.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Rescued said:


> That's my point. "Completely unrelated laws" ARE STILL LAWS, and don't matter any more or less than leash laws do.
> 
> So... the pit is illegal (BSL) but you don't want to report that. Why? Because the pit isn't affecting you...


I hope I don't have to say this again, but we are discussing leash laws here. Our opinion about other laws has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to see leash laws enforced. Can we talk about _leash laws_ without comparing them to every other law under the sun, _please_.



> The point I am making: If the dog isn't bothering anyone or showing a sign that it is about to bother someone WHY IN THE WORLD would you call AC to seize the dog and ticket the owners?


I must have missed the part where this argument became "keep your dog leashed or I'm calling AC." I've actually never called to report a loose dog in my life. Did one person in this thread say they routinely call to report all loose dogs, or something?

If a loose dog is a menace, I'll call. If a loose dog is not rushing mine, I won't, but that dog is still upsetting my dogs and still forcing me to gauge it as a potential threat, and it's likely bothering other people as well (if we're still talking busy/populated area here), and its owner is still being inconsiderate and selfish _as well as_ breaking the law. That's the point most of us seem to be making here.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I must have missed the part where this argument became "keep your dog leashed or I'm calling AC." I've actually never called to report a loose dog in my life. Did one person in this thread say they routinely call to report all loose dogs, or something?



> If the dog was off leash on the sidewalk or in a park, parking lot, whatever, yeah, I would. A group of dogs off leash in an on leash park? Hell yeah, I would.


and a different poster



> I personally will call the cops if I see a dog off a leash where I am walking.


Anyway I am doing lawyer arguing at this point, just because I think its interesting when people (again, not you) seem to have a black and white view of something and then you bring up nuances and suddenly it isnt so black and white.

Glad to know you aren't a fan of calling AC just for the sake of calling AC. Also, we really need to take a lesson from Ontario because I would KILL for any legal offleash thing within an hour of me


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Willowy said:


> If I see a couple making out in a remote section of the park---which is probably illegal under some kind of ordinance---I'll just give them a wide berth and carry on. As long as I'm not tripping over them in the playground area, what does it matter if I can see them at a distance?


For one, "making out" or just kissing is probably legal in the vast majority of public spaces, presuming no nudity and consent etc. There are no signs posted at the edge of parks saying "No one here will be making out" that give the expectation of a make-out free zone (unlike signs posted for on-leash only providing that expectation of only on-leash dogs). 

Mainly though, I've never seen nor heard of someone stopping making out with their date and rushing at me/anyone while the date runs behind saying 'Don't worry, she's friendly!" so when I pass two people kissing each other, I really don't worry about my safety or my dogs safety (the kissers are no greater threat than the general park goer) whereas an off-leash dog does present a potential threat greater than the typical leashed dog. 

I've been rushed by both friendly and unfriendly dogs from a fair distance, easily 200+ yards so simply giving a "wide berth" to an off-leash dog doesn't make up for the fact that I do not know nor trust that dog's training or the owner's reaction to call the dog back in time or at all.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

No one had any good reasoning for my question, huh?



Rescued said:


> What percent of the population are we talking about here that has a phobia (aka irrational panic-attack inducing fear) of seeing dogs offleash, even if they NEVER come in contact with them and the dogs are at a distance?
> 
> I would venture to say that is a pretty small segment of the population, no?





Rescued said:


> But none of those people (don't like, DA dogs, ect) are affected by an offleash dog that NEVER comes up to them and that is far away enough that their dog NEVER sees and NEVER reacts to. So... if it doesn't alter what you do, is it even inconvenient?
> 
> So, if the offleash dog doesn't come in contact with your dogs or alter their behavior in any way, then its not causing problems, correct? And if it isn't causing trouble or problems, then is it inconveniencing you?
> 
> Inconvenienced is not the same thing as a phobia. So is everyone (general) making a case that nobody should be confronted with a phobia, or nobody should be inconvienenced?


My thoughts exactly.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> . But people are still going to be seen from time to time, and I'm not sure why those against off leash play are ok with a small amount of people being "inconvenienced" but not a larger group? Shouldn't the point still stand? What makes it ok for some, in your eyes, and not others? That one person we see when we're out could be the one to break down in a panic attack from seeing my dog.


It is NOT just about people with phobias. If a park is being shared by multiple users, especially those with different interests like some walkers, some bikers, some dog people etc, then everyone needs to do their part to accommodate the other users as best as possible AND under the guidelines of the park. When people appropriate a public area for their own preferred use without due regard towards the other park users, they are being rude. 

If a trail is marked "Hikers and horse riders only" but mountain bikers start using it because hey, they rarely see hikers so they must not be bothering anyone, then less hikers use it because they don't want to get run over and less horse riders use it because they don't want their horses spooked and the trail eventually gets taken over by the bikers. The bikers may not be seeing other users or realizing that they are frustrating the attempts of others to use the PUBLIC space as they have a reasonable expectation to be able to do, but that doesn't mean they aren't affecting others.

IF someone is going to break the rules, then at least they need to be thinking A) how to minimize their impact on other people's use of the same area B) how to minimize risks for other users and C) have some consideration that not everyone will think like them, have the same physical abilities as them or have the same comfort level around dogs as them. It doesn't make it "all better" per se, but it does function as harm reduction. 

The quieter the location is that someone is taking a dog off-leash where they shouldn't, the less people who may be tempted to join in (with possibly/probably less suitable dogs) and the lower the overall risk because less people there is simply less interactions that could lead to harm.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm kinda guessing that the owners whose dogs rush up to people and dogs aren't the ones worrying about whether there's a leash law or not . I think the same reasoning applies as what people say about other restrictive laws---the only ones who obey the laws are responsible already so they aren't the problem!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I'm kinda guessing that the owners whose dogs rush up to people and dogs aren't the ones worrying about whether there's a leash law or not . I think the same reasoning applies as what people say about other restrictive laws---the only ones who obey the laws are responsible already so they aren't the problem!


Great point!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Also once again it is equally unreasonable to expect a world to be free of dogs.


Wait, what? This has nothing to do with what I said. If there is a leash law, a person walking on a public street or city park has a reasonable expectation of not encountering _off-leash_ dogs. Not a reasonable expectation of the world being free of dogs altogether or expecting you to cater to their every whim.  You should really do some reading about "strawman arguments."


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also, where is kissing on a park bench illegal?


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Also, where is kissing on a park bench illegal?


My brother, who is gay ended up going to jail for this. Getting the ticket broke his probation.
Cop was homophobic, I guess...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Shell said:


> Mainly though, I've never seen nor heard of someone stopping making out with their date and rushing at me/anyone while the date runs behind saying 'Don't worry, she's friendly!" so when I pass two people kissing each other, I really don't worry about my safety or my dogs safety (the kissers are no greater threat than the general park goer) whereas an off-leash dog does present a potential threat greater than the typical leashed dog.


This literally made me giggle. And yes its true. I might not want to see people kissing on a bench but they are probably not breaking a law (unless your park is very strict?) and they aren't hurting me. As far as I know, Michigan doesn't have any over reaching kissing laws, my county allows it, and most parks allow it. 

"The quieter the location is that someone is taking a dog off-leash where they shouldn't, the less people who may be tempted to join in (with possibly/probably less suitable dogs) and the lower the overall risk because less people there is simply less interactions that could lead to harm."

This was also a great point. Plus, once again. Just because _you_ know your dog won't run up to mine doesn't mean I don't know that. So if I start seeing a bunch of people using a local park as their dog park illegally, I stop using it because my dog is small or DA or reactive or I don't like dogs or dogs make me nervous. Even if your dog is good, he may me making people from a far nervous. And then your actions spur other owners to go off leash who may or may not have dogs as well trained as yours.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

On a lighter note. That split leash thread got me thinking... back in the days of being a very novice dog owner, we would leave the dogs "leashed" together by their 4 ft coupler.. and unleash the main leash to give them some run time..... in one of the meadows in the park... (not a busy one)...
(Just putting out there another twist on the Leash dogs things)....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> If I see your dogs off leash, and I don't know how well trained they are so I can't go into the park because of my DA dog, then yes, I am being affected and inconvenienced. I might care more about the big group of people being inconvenienced if they were following the rules, but being inconvenienced because I'm reporting you for breaking the rules doesn't really concern me. If that makes sense.


I'm sorry I don't agree with that, if I am in an empty field across the park away from everyone (need room for the chuck it ... Remember?) I can't see how I am affecting you or anyone else. So why ruin my fun by calling the cops? If I am bothering you tell me and I will pack up, leash my dog and move somewhere else.

Dog parks aren't an option for everyone you know.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> I think you mean me?


Oooops! Sorry! Apparently I've just reverted to dog names over people names.

A lot of this hinges on "reasonable expectation" as Sass pointed out. Sometimes people don't act in perfect accordance with the law. I'm not sure the law is synonymous with reasonable expectation. I think Rescued's example is a very good one. Public drunkenness is illegal in most places and while I (definitely!) don't condone harassment theres a certain amount of volubility, stumbling and general fun that goes with a night out. Yes, that is technically illegal but I would never consider calling the police unless an actual safety issue presented itself. If the group started acting aggressively and starting fights (like the aggressive dog in the unofficial dog park) I think it would be justified to call AC and report the leash law violation. 

I'm not prepared to report people to the authorities for doing things *just* this side of illegal that are causing inconvenience. I reserve that for things which are dangerous. As I say most people (and likely all of us) have small incidents in which we break the law. I'm not likely to call the police over a jaywalker either or my neighbour's occasional party or a bike being ridden without proper illumination. Yes, they are breaking traffic and noise laws. Yes, they are a minor inconvenience to me, but part of living peacefully among so freakin' many people is to accept occasional inconveniences and infractions in the name of goodwill. That's my philosophy at least and I hope for the same from my neighbours.

EDIT:


Sarah~ said:


> If I see your dogs off leash, and I don't know how well trained they are so I can't go into the park because of my DA dog, then yes, I am being affected and inconvenienced. I might care more about the big group of people being inconvenienced if they were following the rules, but being inconvenienced because I'm reporting you for breaking the rules doesn't really concern me. If that makes sense.


I'm not picking on you, promise! You've just raised a few points I find interesting. I don't think it does make sense. Why is your inconvenience relevant to me but MY inconvenience is not relevant to you? I find that argument contradictory.



Crantastic said:


> I hope I don't have to say this again, but we are discussing leash laws here. Our opinion about other laws has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to see leash laws enforced. Can we talk about _leash laws_ without comparing them to every other law under the sun, _please_.


Well... considering that the most strongly voiced counter to breaking leash laws has been "it's wrong to break the law" of course people are attacking that assertion. Unless we abandon the "wrong to break the law" argument the counter is going to be relevant.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I'm sorry I don't agree with that, if I am in an empty field across the park away from everyone (need room for the chuck it ... Remember?) I can't see how I am affecting you or anyone else. So why ruin my fun by calling the cops? If I am bothering you tell me and I will pack up, leash my dog and move somewhere else.
> 
> Dog parks aren't an option for everyone you know.


You... don't have a right to use a chuck it on public property. You don't have a right to determine how public property is used - the government does, and the law does. Even if you want to remove all of that (because let's get real, i go off leash sometimes in areas where there are technical leash laws) how in the world can you justify your NEED to use a chuck-it with your off leash dog, but can't understand other people's need to walk a reactive dog or to be able to go into a space with the expectation of not having to see or deal with an off leash dog? 

How does your play time trump someone else's ability to use a public space as it was intended? 

Don't you have land, anyway?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Wait, what? This has nothing to do with what I said. If there is a leash law, a person walking on a public street or city park has a reasonable expectation of not encountering _off-leash_ dogs. Not a reasonable expectation of the world being free of dogs altogether or expecting you to cater to their every whim.  You should really do some reading about "strawman arguments."


I am mobile so I can't really hi-light and quote as easily as I could if I was on the computer ... But you said in one of your post that my phobia of spiders doesn't compare because I can't expect to have an "environment free of spiders" then you went on to say that a person who has a dog phobia or doesn't like dogs or is nervous about dogs or whatever CAN reasonably expect an "environment free of dogs" which is untrue. 

But I also think your repeated posts of "waah ... But I want to!" Are equally "straw man arguments". But like I said calling the cops won't stop me ... I will have Josefina leashed and be on my way to the car before the cop is any the wiser ... Provided he comes at all.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Shell said:


> Mainly though, I've never seen nor heard of someone stopping making out with their date and rushing at me/anyone while the date runs behind saying 'Don't worry, she's friendly!" so when I pass two people kissing each other, I really don't worry about my safety or my dogs safety (the kissers are no greater threat than the general park goer) whereas an off-leash dog does present a potential threat greater than the typical leashed dog.


This image just made the whole thread worth it. That's the hardest I've laughed all week!


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

CptJack said:


> You... don't have a right to use a chuck it on public property. You don't have a right to determine how public property is used - the government does, and the law does. deal with an off leash dog?
> 
> How does your play time trump someone else's ability to use a public space as it was intended?


Actually that pic in my Avatar says it all. That land was Bequeathed to the City and County Of SF as public recreational area - including specifically off leash dog/ owners--
for the public use and recreation of All.

Chuckits, running dogs, picnics, swimming (not reccomended but it happens), surfing, hangliders landing, horseback riders, and the Lifeguards on dunebuggies all SHARE that space.

It takes work and it aint perfect, but it can be done.
And the Offleash dog group has to constantly remind the Park Service that it has a right to the land, and the recreation of it as well as anyone else...
(and you dont think Ginormous Poops from the horses dont inconvenience anyone bike riding or rollerblading on the paths up top?)....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I am mobile so I can't really hi-light and quote as easily as I could if I was on the computer ... But you said in one of your post that my phobia of spiders doesn't compare because I can't expect to have an "environment free of spiders" then you went on to say that a person who has a dog phobia or doesn't like dogs or is nervous about dogs or whatever CAN reasonably expect an "environment free of dogs" which is untrue.
> 
> But I also think your repeated posts of "waah ... But I want to!" Are equally "straw man arguments". But like I said calling the cops won't stop me ... I will have Josefina leashed and be on my way to the car before the cop is any the wiser ... Provided he comes at all.


I believe what Sass meant was that people cannot expect the world to be free of dogs but rather free of off leash dogs. In on leash areas, they can expect to be "safe" because the dogs won't have the opportunity to approach. We cannot expect the world to be free of dogs, but we can expect everyone to use a leash. I know being a law abiding, respectful citizen isn't as fun as being off leash, but its really so that everyone can enjoy themselves at the park.

Unfortunately, there aren't any laws against spiders in public places.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> I believe what Sass meant was that people cannot expect the world to be free of dogs but rather free of off leash dogs. In on leash areas, they can expect to be "safe" because the dogs won't have the opportunity to approach. We cannot expect the world to be free of dogs, but we can expect everyone to use a leash. I know being a law abiding, respectful citizen isn't as fun as being off leash, but its really so that everyone can enjoy themselves at the park.
> 
> Unfortunately, there aren't any laws against spiders in public places.


I don't think the law is necessarily synonymous with reasonable expectation though. I don't think its a reasonable expectation that my neighbours *never* have a party that breaks noise laws. Or that I will *never* encounter a biker without illumination. Or never see a jaywalker. 

I also think DJs point is a really good one. If inconvenience of individuals matters then inconvenience of a group of people should matter just as much or more. Expecting *strict* adherence to all bylaws is not necessarily reasonable, IMO.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> I believe what Sass meant was that people cannot expect the world to be free of dogs but rather free of off leash dogs. In on leash areas, they can expect to be "safe" because the dogs won't have the opportunity to approach. We cannot expect the world to be free of dogs, but we can expect everyone to use a leash. I know being a law abiding, respectful citizen isn't as fun as being off leash, but its really so that everyone can enjoy themselves at the park.
> 
> Unfortunately, there aren't any laws against spiders in public places.


But a leash doesn't garantee safety either. I would rather see an off leash dog under control then a leashed dog NOT under control.

Captjack- yes I do have land, but before that I did live in the city. I am lucky it's a very dog friendly city.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

aiw said:


> Why is your inconvenience relevant to me but MY inconvenience is not relevant to you? I find that argument contradictory.


And before people say "well you're just being lazy, all you have to do is actually walk your dog more" ... some of us have actual health conditions that preclude being able to exercise for very long. It ain't going to help much if I pass out on a trail somewhere. I suppose by that token I shouldn't have a dog at all, but I think thats going a bit far especially since I didn't seek my current dog out, he sort of flunked out and came back home haha.



> Well... considering that the most strongly voiced counter to breaking leash laws has been "it's wrong to break the law" of course people are attacking that assertion. Unless we abandon the "wrong to break the law" argument the counter is going to be relevant.


Yes, this. It seems as if when the 
"Well, are you actually being directly bothered by offleash dogs?" is asked, and the answer is no, it turns to 
"But, well, they shouldn't be there at all! Even if I don't come in contact with them."
"But why does it matter if nothing happens to you as a result of them?"
"Well... its the LAW!"


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I also think that the general negitivity for dogs off leash is the simple fact that it's breaking a rule and not so much the inconvience of it.

Those with small or DA dogs would be well enough to remember that a leash doesn't equal safety. And I am willing to bet that if I was playing the same game of fetch on a 30 ft long line, it would be equally annoying to you ... The only difference is that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I also think that the general negitivity for dogs off leash is the simple fact that it's breaking a rule and not so much the inconvience of it.
> 
> Those with small or DA dogs would be well enough to remember that a leash doesn't equal safety. And I am willing to bet that if I was playing the same game of fetch on a 30 ft long line, it would be equally annoying to you ... The only difference is that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.


Nope, it is the danger factor that gets me going about off-leash in well-used on-leash areas. A leash may not equal safety BUT it does provide a back-up to a verbal command AND something for other people to grab or step on in an attempt to catch a loose dog. 

And no, if you were using a 30 foot line in an area with sufficient free space for it, it would not be as "annoying" to me because again, it gives an additional layer of assistance and protection in stopped the dog or controlling the dog once someone can get a hold of it.

I've had multiple instances where if a dog had a leash and the person dropped the leash, that the leash would have helped a whole lot in stopping the dog versus the person running behind shouting "Come back" 
If the dog is friendly, I could just grab the leash myself and hold the dog at a safe distance or keep the dog from continuing on to run into traffic or bother someone else. 

In one case, we were attacked by leashed dogs where the owner fell in the pouring rain and the leashes slipped her hands. I had two dogs and there was no real way for me to body block 2 big dogs coming at me. But while there were some scratches and nicks on the dogs, the owner was able to grab the leashes and the leashes definitely helped her to gain control of her dogs again. 



> I don't think the law is necessarily synonymous with reasonable expectation though. I don't think its a reasonable expectation that my neighbours *never* have a party that breaks noise laws. Or that I will *never* encounter a biker without illumination. Or never see a jaywalker.


Your neighbor's loud party doesn't really pose any risk to you. The biker without lights does, but that's why there is (or should be YMMV) a big push to educate kids and grown-up bikers about lights and safety and reflective gear. Because you should have a reasonable expectation to not encounter a biker without lights, just like you should have a reasonable expectation to not encounter off-leash dogs in a signed off-leash area and the both things require the courtesy of other users and education on the risks.

Rescued-- don't you worry about guide dog users running into off-leash dogs? There are a lot of guide dog users in my area and I hate that they cannot walk the city streets and urban parks without the potential for running into off-leash dogs. Granted, many of those loose dogs are friendly enough, but that doesn't mean they couldn't create a hazard.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Shell said:


> Rescued-- don't you worry about guide dog users running into off-leash dogs? There are a lot of guide dog users in my area and I hate that they cannot walk the city streets and urban parks without the potential for running into off-leash dogs. Granted, many of those loose dogs are friendly enough, but that doesn't mean they couldn't create a hazard.


Oh heck yes. I'm not for loose dogs in an urban setting. What I am for (or okay with) is someone being allowed to exercise their dog in a legally on-leash area (read: there are no businesses for miles) away from everyone else when the dog isn't bothering anyone else.

I assure you that very, very few guide dog users are going to be with a dog in harness walking around these trails alone. I almost said none, but never say never!

I just think the (non-majority opinion, I think?) idea of "It is illegal therefore even if you aren't harming anyone I'm going to call the police because it's ILLEGAL, dangit!" attitude is very... weird...

And the "don't compare the legality of other similar things in this argument, because I'm arguing about the legality of THIS thing!" is even weirder.

And, the more I read this thread the more I'm thinking that MOST of us have the same idea. But not all. And I'm not trying to convert anyone... it's finals time and I'm procrastinating


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Rescued said:


> Oh heck yes. I'm not for loose dogs in an urban setting. What I am for (or okay with) is someone being allowed to exercise their dog in a legally on-leash area (read: there are no businesses for miles) away from everyone else when the dog isn't bothering anyone else.
> 
> _I assure you that very, very few guide dog users are going to be with a dog in harness walking around these trails alone. I almost said none, but never say never!_
> 
> I just think the (non-majority opinion, I think?) idea of "It is illegal therefore even if you aren't harming anyone I'm going to call the police because it's ILLEGAL, dangit!" attitude is very... weird...


Can't say that I've seen any guide dog users out on the trails, but there are a few public parks here with nice smooth paved paths that would make a safe stroll for nearly anyone that do have an off-leash dog presence. 

I've seen people running their dogs loose next to an office building that is dedicate to providing services to the blind, including working with their guide dogs. Not a great choice of locations to run the loose dogs IMO.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I also think that the general negitivity for dogs off leash is the simple fact that it's breaking a rule and not so much the inconvience of it.
> 
> Those with small or DA dogs would be well enough to remember that a leash doesn't equal safety. And I am willing to bet that if I was playing the same game of fetch on a 30 ft long line, it would be equally annoying to you ... The only difference is that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.


No it wouldn't bother me because I would know that your dog isn't loose or going to run up to mine, and attack them or cause a fight.
And for me, I don't really care so much about breaking a law, but that because people are breaking the law, I now have to walk my dogs after 10 pm at night, in a residential neighborhood to reduce my chances of coming across off leash dogs that charge me. And in my old neighborhood, my dogs were attacked by 2 loose German Sheps twice, after 10:30 pm. Owners were saying they were "Trained" so why would they be leashed. that's after they chased me and my 3 dogs across a street and into my front courtyard.
If you want your dogs off leash, it needs to be where other leashed dog owners do not see you, if there is a leash law. I don't care if you go someplace that is never used by people walking leashed dogs. But if people regularly walk leashed dogs there, then you ARE inconveniencing, scaring people, and encouraging irresponsible owners with untrained dogs to let them off leash too.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Shell said:


> Can't say that I've seen any guide dog users out on the trails, but there are a few public parks here with nice smooth paved paths that would make a safe stroll for nearly anyone that do have an off-leash dog presence.
> 
> I've seen people running their dogs loose next to an office building that is dedicate to providing services to the blind, including working with their guide dogs. Not a great choice of locations to run the loose dogs IMO.


Yeah I think a lot of this is location dependent. The area that I'm talking about I can't see guide dog users using, or at least using alone. You have to remember that guide dog users don't drive, so anywhere they go to is either through public transportation or someone taking them there. AKA if they were going to go on a hike with their guide dog, it would likely be with family and I doubt the dog would be in harness, though I'm not sure that matters much.

And yes, I agree with the services to the blind/offleash dogs part. Unfortunately not everyone thinks of things like that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

spotted nikes said:


> No it wouldn't bother me because I would know that your dog isn't loose or going to run up to mine, and attack them or cause a fight.
> And for me, I don't really care so much about breaking a law, but that because people are breaking the law, I now have to walk my dogs after 10 pm at night, in a residential neighborhood to reduce my chances of coming across off leash dogs that charge me. And in my old neighborhood, my dogs were attacked by 2 loose German Sheps twice, after 10:30 pm. Owners were saying they were "Trained" so why would they be leashed. that's after they chased me and my 3 dogs across a street and into my front courtyard.
> If you want your dogs off leash, it needs to be where other leashed dog owners do not see you, if there is a leash law. I don't care if you go someplace that is never used by people walking leashed dogs. But if people regularly walk leashed dogs there, then you ARE inconveniencing, scaring people, and encouraging irresponsible owners with untrained dogs to let them off leash too.


So ... If you saw this dog at the park ...



You would deem her dangerous and a risk to you and your dogs?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> So ... If you saw this dog at the park ...
> 
> 
> 
> You would deem her dangerous and a risk to you and your dogs?


Potentially. Would you deem this face a danger to your dog?







Because he is. Plus, ACDs don't always have the best reputation of being dog friendly. I recall a recent article where an ACD attacked another dog at an obedience trial. All it takes is one or two scary stories to put people off your breed. 

For the record, people in my area are scared poo-less when they see Pepper. He is old and minds his own business but we clear a dog park just by walking in. Apparently he looks scary.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The dogs that have recently been threatening towards mine have been an English bulldog, a Weimaraner, a black lab mix, some kind of fluffy Newfoundland-looking mix, a boxer, and two French bulldog-looking mixes. Not exactly the breeds that strike fear into people's hearts. You can't judge by looks alone whether or not a dog is going to be a danger to a person or another dog. To someone whose dogs are snack size, any medium-to-large dog is a potential threat.

Hell, my potentially-people-biting dog is just the cutest thing:










A photo, or a loose dog seen walking next to its owner up ahead, tells us nothing. How do I know that dog won't spot us and start running at us? It's happened before, several times.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Once again.... 

My it's the law comment was to point out you have no reasonable expectation to think you can just let your dog off leash in an on leash, public space, and have everyone just leave you alone because they don't want to spoil your fun, the same as any other law. If you go somewhere that no one can see you, no one can report you. 

It doesn't matter how many examples you throw out, if you are breaking a law where someone can see you and reports you, that's part of the risk you are taking, whether it's a stupid law or not. I never said I'd call the cops on every lawbreaker I see doing anything against the law, nor did I say I'd call AC and have anyone's dog taken away. I would call the police to have them come out and either ticket or warn them for having their dogs off leash, because I would feel that it would be unsafe for me to go in. And why should I have to avoid a public park? I'm doing everything right. You are doing something wrong that affects me.

Leash laws are a huge safety issue for me, mostly for YOUR benefit, because of my dog. Every single off leash dog I have ever seen in my life were not even remotely what I would call "under control". I could be 50, 100, 200 feet away and as soon as the dog noticed us, they would run to me. So a big group of off leash dogs would TERRIFY me, whether they were pomeranians, pit bulls or mastiffs. 

Look at this face, and picture him ripping into your dog. That's the reality I live with!


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Once again....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sarah. in my city if you have such a dog, and has bitten in that manner before, its the LAW that he must be MUZZLED at all times as well as on LEASH when out of your home/ apartment....


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

He is muzzled and on leash. But he will still try to attack if a dog runs up to him and then that dog might turn around to attack him and he can't defend himself. Or I can get in the middle and possibly get bitten...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Sarah. in my city if you have such a dog, and has bitten in that manner before, its the LAW that he must be MUZZLED at all times as well as on LEASH when out of your home/ apartment....


Sarah has stated that Eko is muzzled and leashed when he is walked. However, muzzles can only do so much. Can't dogs still pinch with their front teeth and muzzle punch an oncoming dog? Either way, there is no way you'd want your off leash dog to go up to Eko. Off leash dogs shouldn't approach on leash dogs ever unless the other owner says it's ok.

P.S. Sarah, Eko is really, really cute!


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> He is muzzled and on leash. But he will still try to attack if a dog runs up to him and then that dog might turn around to attack him and he can't defend himself. Or I can get in the middle and possibly get bitten...


I feel bad for that. We rehomed our DA dog to our parents leafy suburban (fenced with wood panels) back yard - she got very fat and mellow and was spoiled by my parents....


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Dang it! I knew I should have ordered those glasses during the info commercial. You know those ones that help you see the invisi-leash. I am sure you have seen the commercial that sells invisible leashes that only the dog and owner can see. The commercial brags how you can go into parks with this leash so that you and your dog can enjoy a park that requires a leash without really having to have that annoying leash between you and the dog. The invisi-leash is light weight your dog will act like it has nothing on and only comes in clear for right now. It also comes with special glasses that way you can tell who else has the invis-leash on their dog and not just letting their dog run loose to annoy you. 

Call 1 800-invisi-leash right now to order yours. 

BTW just a joke


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> I feel bad for that. We rehomed our DA dog to our parents leafy suburban (fenced with wood panels) back yard - she got very fat and mellow and was spoiled by my parents....


I would re-home him but I don't really trust anyone I know who doesn't have any other dogs. He is really only okay around Xena, and some female dogs. It's really very serious for us when dogs are loose around him. 



RabbleFox said:


> Sarah has stated that Eko is muzzled and leashed when he is walked. However, muzzles can only do so much. Can't dogs still pinch with their front teeth and muzzle punch an oncoming dog? Either way, there is no way you'd want your off leash dog to go up to Eko. Off leash dogs shouldn't approach on leash dogs ever unless the other owner says it's ok.
> 
> P.S. Sarah, Eko is really, really cute!


Thank you  he is a cutie pie.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

My it's the law comment was to point out you have no reasonable expectation to think you can just let your dog off leash in an on leash, public space, and have everyone just leave you alone because they don't want to spoil your fun, the same as any other law. If you go somewhere that no one can see you, no one can report you. 



> It doesn't matter how many examples you throw out, if you are breaking a law where someone can see you and reports you, that's part of the risk you are taking, whether it's a stupid law or not. I never said I'd call the cops on every lawbreaker I see doing anything against the law, nor did I say I'd call AC and have anyone's dog taken away. *I would call the police to have them come out and either ticket or warn them for having their dogs off leash,* because I would feel that it would be unsafe for me to go in. And why should I have to avoid a public park? I'm doing everything right. You are doing something wrong that affects me.


Just to clarify (as I'm not sure you realize this) what happens is that the PD forward the call to AC and they would come out.



> Leash laws are a huge safety issue for me, mostly for YOUR benefit, because of my dog.


And I guess I must not be every single owner (unfortunately) but if my dog got hurt due to my negligence, it would obviously be my fault and not yours.



> I* could be 50, 100, 200 feet away and as soon as the dog noticed us, they would run to me. *


Also just to clarify, IMO, that is too close for offleash to be near onleash. 

And I'm not justifying my actions, I'm breaking the law and that is illegal. I just think its crappy for you to make the first action calling AC- but again, thats my opinion.



Sarah~ said:


> I would re-home him but I don't really trust anyone I know who doesn't have any other dogs. He is really only okay around Xena, and some female dogs. It's really very serious for us when dogs are loose around him.


Also TY so much for being responsible with him and not dumping him off at a shelter or with an unexperienced owner, seriously. Is he DA with xena too/ do you crate and rotate?

ALSO if you dont already have a caution leash I would strongly reccomend one. We have a similar reflective yellow leash slider for the service dogs and it works well.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I can't believe this made it to 28 pages


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I would re-home him but I don't really trust anyone I know who doesn't have any other dogs. He is really only okay around Xena, and some female dogs. It's really very serious for us when dogs are loose around him.


That really super sucks. Bae was only aggressive if he didn't have proper, slow introductions. He found a home with some fantastically reliable people. They understand he has issues and are willing to work with him through it. I can only imagine how awful your walks must be. I know what it's like having to look up, down, left, right, and everywhere just hoping that you won't run into any other dogs on or off leash. Sometimes I just wished that I could go for a walk without having him spazz out.  Keep up the good work. You are a good person to Eko. Not everyone would stick with him through this.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> That really super sucks. Bae was only aggressive if he didn't have proper, slow introductions. He found a home with some fantastically reliable people. They understand he has issues and are willing to work with him through it. I can only imagine how awful your walks must be. I know what it's like having to look up, down, left, right, and everywhere just hoping that you won't run into any other dogs on or off leash. Sometimes I just wished that I could go for a walk without having him spazz out.  Keep up the good work. You are a good person to Eko. Not everyone would stick with him through this.


X2 Sarah for sticking by Eko.
In our case, living in the city with no dedicated dog yard (it was the condo shared garden space) and the above mentioned stress of constantly running into strange dogs she would want to attack (never actually made contact except for our puppy, which is where we drew the line)- on leash or not- it didnt make a difference and it was just kinder for her (yes I do feel lucky, my parents have had dogs their whole lives) to be in a more contained environment where she didnt have to be around a constantly changing group of dogs.... They even walked her, like around the block in a little harness, in their quiet senior neighborhood.... There were squirrels in the yard though so she did get some excitement....


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Rescued said:


> My it's the law comment was to point out you have no reasonable expectation to think you can just let your dog off leash in an on leash, public space, and have everyone just leave you alone because they don't want to spoil your fun, the same as any other law. If you go somewhere that no one can see you, no one can report you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't know that, actually. I wouldn't call if i thought someone's dog would be hauled off or anything, and I figure worst case they might get a ticket but our police here are fairly lenient so most likely they would just say, hey, leash your dog. And if it was just one person, honestly, I would usually just tell them to leash their dog as I have done quite a few times. But if it's a group I would be a bit intimidated and that would be my personal safest, most comfortable option. 

And yeah, it would be your fault, but I would feel just awful. I don't want anyone hurt because of my dogs! It may be crappy of me to call but in my experience it's really the only way people take me seriously. I have had people drop leashes to let their dogs come up to us while I'm literally yelling NO and yanking Eko behind me as hard as I can while he is trying to drag me. I wish people were more like people here but they almost always aren't. 

He is only aggressive to Xena when she gets too rough playing, or if she is trying to take a toy/bone from him. Otherwise he is very gentle. His DA is mostly toward male and really hyper dogs. Xena is most of the time mellow and she's grown up with him since 14 weeks, so he is used to her. I keep them seperate when I'm occupied or gone but usually they get along well.

I think this picture says it all, it's my favorite! It's hard to imagine this same dog attacking another one.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Picture didn't show??


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Sure, breaking any law no matter how silly comes with the attendant risk of having the authorities called. That's just reality. But that doesn't mean that the actions of the caller are necessarily justified or the law is a wise one. Like in the thread about the BSL pit "looking" at the puppy, the owner is taking a risk of ill consequences, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should be the one to make those consequences reality. Not without good reason.

As I said before, as a rule I don't report neighbours for doing things which are inconvenient or a minor safety concern like jaywalking. I would need much more active evidence of danger before considering it (dog attacking people/dogs/chasing kids etc.) Obviously in *my own* judgement there is absolutely no need for AC involvement. If I thought that I would never go offleash in the first place. But of course I do acknowledge that not everyone uses the same yardstick as me... 

Although they should!!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Potentially. Would you deem this face a danger to your dog?
> View attachment 124457
> 
> Because he is. Plus, ACDs don't always have the best reputation of being dog friendly. I recall a recent article where an ACD attacked another dog at an obedience trial. All it takes is one or two scary stories to put people off your breed.
> ...


How many ACDs have you owned? I have been into the breed for over 10 years and have never had a DA ACD, they have a low tolerance for rude doggy behavior which can look like DA to someone not familiar with the breed. While my ACDs are not DA, they are quick to finish a fight if another dog starts one. What were the circumstances of the fight? Because unless it was a poorly bred one. 

Regardless, we doubt that Josefina is full ACD anyway ... We have a feeling there is something we in there because she doesn't have the "hard" ACD temperament


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I can't believe this made it to 28 pages












Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> they have a low tolerance for rude doggy behavior which can look like DA to someone not familiar with the breed. While my ACDs are not DA, they are _quick to finish a fight_ if another dog starts one.


Which is exactly a reason to be wary of an unknown dog and particularly one of a size large enough to do damage. Let's say you're out throwing that frizbee for your dog. The dog is focused on the frizbee but you overthrow it or the wind catches it and it flies towards me and mine. I have no idea if your dog is a resource guarder that is going to go nutso if one of my dogs or a person reaches for the frizbee etc. Or your dog runs up to mine and isn't DA but doesn't like the posturing of a socially inept young dog and bad things go down. 

A dog with a low tolerance for rude dog behavior can most certainly be a dangerous dog towards other dogs. 

I don't judge by a sweet face and fluffy coat or whatever as far as which loose dogs _could_ be dangerous, excluding maybe the very tiny dogs when I am out walking only Chester (who doesn't bat an eye at Chihuahuas or MinPins or tiny pups of any breed really and will lay down to play with them). Based on previous encounters, I have to basically assume that any dog is a potential threat or at minimum a potential hazard.



Xeph said:


> I can't believe this made it to 28 pages


But, I mean, really, but .....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> How many ACDs have you owned? I have been into the breed for over 10 years and have never had a DA ACD, they have a low tolerance for rude doggy behavior which can look like DA to someone not familiar with the breed. While my ACDs are not DA, they are quick to finish a fight if another dog starts one. What were the circumstances of the fight? Because unless it was a poorly bred one.
> 
> Regardless, we doubt that Josefina is full ACD anyway ... We have a feeling there is something we in there because she doesn't have the "hard" ACD temperament


I havent owned any! That's the problem. Many people havent owned pitbulls and just believe what the media has told them. Vicious man-eaters, amirite? I'm having trouble finding the article but it was posted here.  The gist of it was an ACD was in the novice ring doing a recall and broke to jump the ring fence to attack a poodle competing for it's Utility title. The poodle was mauled. Maybe someone could help me find the link?

No offense, but from your photo she looks pretty close to ACD to me. Just because she is cute doesn't mean she is nice. Bae was a pretty looking dog but he wasn't always nice. Unfortunately, from a distance can only go by looks. Looks like she is off leash and mine isn't friendly so we turn around.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)




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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Rescued said:


> ALSO if you dont already have a caution leash I would strongly reccomend one. We have a similar reflective yellow leash slider for the service dogs and it works well.


I didn't see this at first, where do you find these?


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Picture didn't show??


Nice. We had a "dog selective" Boxer and the only dog he really relaxed around was his little "sister" Boxer we got when he was a year old.... 
They did have a doggie play date-friend, though, a pitbulll....


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LOL this thread. At this point I would hope every one can figure out what has been said and whether it applies to them or not. Or at least accept some people think you're a jerk for the choices you make when you make choices that affect other people, no matter how small you feel the affect is. Accept the inevitable and maybe go argue about CM or something now.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Accept the inevitable and maybe go argue about CM or something now.


Bahahahahahahah


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Nice. We had a "dog selective" Boxer and the only dog he really relaxed around was his little "sister" Boxer we got when he was a year old....
> They did have a doggie play date-friend, though, a pitbulll....


Eko's DA oddly enough really took off after a male pit bull attacked Xena a couple of weeks after we got her. He attacked the other dog and I got Xena away and it was over but he really never liked male dogs ever again. :/ Or dogs that run up into his face.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

May not be a popular sentiment, but you can count me as one who will report off leash dogs that I encounter repeatedly in my own neighborhood and in parks and trails that I frequent with my DA dog. For some owners, a ticket or warning might not be enough of a deterrent, but for many it would be enough to get a leash on that dog. I do it simply to reduce the numbers of off-leash dogs in on-leash areas that I want to be able to enjoy, and I don't feel the least bit bad about it.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I reported an off leash Boxer who's owner kept letting run loose on the apartment complex property - with pictures. I reported it to the office. And I don't regret it in the slightest.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I reported an off leash Boxer who's owner kept letting run loose on the apartment complex property - with pictures. I reported it to the office. And I don't regret it in the slightest.


Good for you! In my experience, it does no good to ask most owners personally to stop letting their dogs run loose in the neighborhood. An authority figure will have a much larger impact.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> I didn't see this at first, where do you find these?


There are a bunch, google "caution dog leash" or "dinos dog leash", I know theres some cheap ones out there I just dont have time to sift through everything. Here's one.

http://shop.cautionwalker.com/

I would also STRONGLY suggest getting a vest of this style: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SERVICE-DOG...table-Cordura-Nylon-Accessories-/150979052006 In a bright orange, but obviously don't put service dog patches on it, they sell a bunch that say things like caution.

Basically- if you add enough orange and stuff, people will notice and stay away haha!. Some will probably stay away because they think he's a SD but whatever works. Just obviously don't put SD patches on him or try to represent him as one.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> LOL this thread. At this point I would hope every one can figure out what has been said and whether it applies to them or not. Or at least accept some people think you're a jerk for the choices you make when you make choices that affect other people, no matter how small you feel the affect is. Accept the inevitable and maybe go argue about CM or something now.


What, now I'm supposed to go study for my exam tomorrow or something? Proving moot points on the internet is so much more fun.

...no, really.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I gotta say, there's more than a little hypocrisy in walking an animal known to be aggressive in public and calling up the authorities for a leash violation that's not resulting in active harm.

TWAB is right though, the moral of the story here is you're going to make the decisions you make and no matter what you do its likely there's someone out there thinking you're a jerk for it.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

aiw said:


> I gotta say, there's more than a little hypocrisy in walking an animal known to be aggressive in public and calling up the authorities for a leash violation that's not resulting in active harm.
> 
> TWAB is right though, the moral of the story here is you're going to make the decisions you make and no matter what you do its likely there's someone out there thinking you're a jerk for it.


*shrug* My dog needs to use the bathroom, and she also needs to get exercised. She's on a leash, controlled by me. The boxer was running loose, every single time. I see nothing wrong or hypocritical in what I did in reporting him.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> *shrug* My dog needs to use the bathroom, and she also needs to get exercised. She's on a leash, controlled by me. The boxer was running loose, every single time. I see nothing wrong or hypocritical in what I did in reporting him.


JMO but known aggressive dogs are a managed risk - always. There is at least as much risk to the general public of having one out (especially unmuzzled) as having a friendly dog offleash. A leash mitigates risk but especially in a city, its far from removing it. I don't know Sydney's situation exactly with regard to reactivity vs. DA or HA, so I don't want you to think I'm judging her specifically. Just as a general principle.

EDIT: Plus, reporting neighbours for small infractions like that seems really petty to me. Like calling down a noise complaint to a party, reporting jaywalking etc. Not something I would consider doing. That said I do sometimes break small rules like those so I try to offer others the benefit of the doubt. But again, all of those things are in my judgement, and clearly not everyone shares it!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Rescued said:


> What, now I'm supposed to go study for my exam tomorrow or something? Proving moot points on the internet is so much more fun.
> 
> ...no, really.


I would personally suggest taking some time to buy me gifts. 



aiw said:


> TWAB is right though, the moral of the story here is you're going to make the decisions you make and no matter what you do its likely there's someone out there thinking you're a jerk for it.


It was a pretty good discussion for a while, it just went super far off the beaten path and every thing is just kind of irrelevant now. I'm totally going to avoid making any official stance for fear it will be revived, but either you're a jerk or not. If you personally feel justified enough to argue for 29 pages then you'd probably feel justified enough to keep doing it regardless of what people think. 

General you of course. I have no idea what position any one is in any more at this point to be honest.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I've kindof enjoyed it even if it is silly... Especially the last few pages.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

aiw said:


> I've kindof enjoyed it even if it is silly... Especially the last few pages.


Did we hit 11,000 posts? I was waiting for that...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

FYI I don't use a frisbee in public places ... Too much margin for error there hence why I use a ball ... I don't even use the chuck it of there isn't enough room for it.

No of fence taken about her looking full Acd ... In fact I would love it if she is  she has a very soft temperament though ESP with strange dogs and the female at home she doesn't get along with is because of that other female disliking HER not because of her. She had a wonderful relationship with Izze and they never fought ... Ironically ... Izze had problems with the same female and that was the only dog she ever didn't get along with. 

Josefina is not a RG'er, she plays happily with my old jack Russell, in fact, since he is going blind, she actually how him find the ball LMBO xD. If the toy ended up rolling or flying and a stranger picked it up she would probably sit (something I drilled into her to do before the toy is thrown) and wait for them to throw it lol. If another dog interloped she would likely welcome another play mate ... She is weird xD.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

We actually only play with "found" balls, none of my crew actually retrieve its more of a hunt it down kill it with a good chomp and either take off again with it or maybe bring it back a few times, before deciding that you (ball thrower) must really not want the ball, as you keep throwing it away... Luckily there are usu a fair number of balls around-- on the beach they wash up in the AMs, in the park especially around the tennis courts...
I have have special squeaky tennis ball that I squeak to get their instant attention and also to reward them for the recall (they only get a few chomps and it gets put away d/t my fear of them chomping out the squeaker)..

There is an ultimate frisbee course in the heart of the Park as well....and that takes a bit of management....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

All this being said ... I always carry at least one leash with me ... Most of the time I have two (one is a long line) and if someone asked me to leash my dog I would have no problem doing so. All anyone has to do it ask, they don't need to get all nasty about it and call the cops or AC. 

Anyway I have 70 acres with an almost 2 acre yard now ... So I don't have to sorry about this kind of stuff anymore . I can do whatever I want xD


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> I've kindof enjoyed it even if it is silly... Especially the last few pages.


I just said not every one can make everyone happy!


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

aiw said:


> I gotta say, there's more than a little hypocrisy in walking an animal known to be aggressive in public and calling up the authorities for a leash violation that's not resulting in active harm.


Well... We have to walk somewhere. Our neighborhood has a ton of loose dogs, so why not a park that is supposed to be on leash only? So if I pick out a park for this reason, go there, and see off leash dogs obviously I am going to be a bit ticked off. 

Honestly, he is probably walked far less than he should be just because for me it's becoming harder and harder to make myself go through all of it. It's always an ordeal. Nobody listens to me, time and time again, until both dogs are worked up. So that may be why I am just fed up and have a stricter view on this.

Thanks, Rescued, for the links  I will get the leash and vest, hopefully that makes more of a statement than just the muzzle.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sarah ... Maybe you should enlist the help of a trainer or behaviorist to help with his issues, because he should really be conditioned to at least be able to cope with factors you can't control in the public environment. Because like or not, you are going to encounter loose dogs and stupid owners. I am not ragging on your training efforts ... I'm just saying.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Sarah ... Maybe you should enlist the help of a trainer or behaviorist to help with his issues, because he should really be conditioned to at least be able to cope with factors you can't control in the public environment. Because like or not, you are going to encounter loose dogs and stupid owners. I am not ragging on your training efforts ... I'm just saying.


I would like to. I just don't know how they would be able to help, he is not food motivated (spits out all treats) if I use praise he gets too excited and can't hold still, the prong collar does not help when he decides to go after a dog and I am still on the fence about an e-collar. They are definitely everywhere, going to the vet is truly a nightmare.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I would like to. I just don't know how they would be able to help, he is not food motivated (spits out all treats) if I use praise he gets too excited and can't hold still, the prong collar does not help when he decides to go after a dog and I am still on the fence about an e-collar. They are definitely everywhere, going to the vet is truly a nightmare.


 Our girl was fairly reactive (just too protective, but ok with other dogs) we sent her to Trainer (he was Schuntzhund trained/ bred his own dobermans as well as is involved with Canine Companions for independence, so pretty balanced I thought)-- he gave her something to focus on thru the training, and also seemed to understand working dogs pretty well, and most importantly he trained Me how to handle her, with free "drop ins " for the lifetime of the dog (but we moved away).... For that dog and me and my personality, that trainer was what we needed and he was a Godsend....
I was referred to him, by word of mouth by a friend from work...


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Also my girl was not food motivated at all (hence in my previous post about using a squeaky etc).... and the trainer would probably have ways to keep dog focused, motivated to stay "On" you despite distractions like other dogs... etc.... he took really aggressive, mostly male dogs and was actually surprised by my dog, said she was high energy, had fair balance, just had no idea of her role in our relationship, etc...
It just really was a good thing to get another, seasoned perspective on our issues...


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

So his favorite thing on earth besides praise is his tennis ball, you can use that instead of treats? How would you do that on leash? And I would have to take his muzzle off, makes me nervous just thinking about it.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> So his favorite thing on earth besides praise is his tennis ball, you can use that instead of treats? How would you do that on leash? And I would have to take his muzzle off, makes me nervous just thinking about it.


 Same as the bomb sniffing dogs, their "reward" is often their ball or tug toy. Dog needs a refresher obedience course first, and if he is DA I would hesitate to give advice over the internet...a trainer is best to work with You and your dog...
Its the same principle that I utilize when my dog is off leash though-- I keep one eye peeled for ANYbody in sight and use the squeaky for distraction, or to reward the recall... the trick is heading off any actual encounters.... You just have to avoid the trigger which in your case is another dog...
Keep the dog focused on you, not trigger, I know this sounds simplistic but it the basics ...


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Same as the bomb sniffing dogs, their "reward" is often their ball or tug toy. Dog needs a refresher obedience course first, and if he is DA I would hesitate to give advice over the internet...a trainer is best to work with You and your dog...
> Its the same principle that I utilize when my dog is off leash though-- I keep one eye peeled for ANYbody in sight and use the squeaky for distraction, or to reward the recall... the trick is heading off any actual encounters.... You just have to avoid the trigger which in your case is another dog...
> Keep the dog focused on you, not trigger, I know this sounds simplistic but it the basics ...


Interesting... I'm definitely going to take a look into this. Thanks for letting me know


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> I would like to. I just don't know how they would be able to help, he is not food motivated (spits out all treats) if I use praise he gets too excited and can't hold still, the prong collar does not help when he decides to go after a dog and I am still on the fence about an e-collar. They are definitely everywhere, going to the vet is truly a nightmare.


You should look into BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training). No treats required.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Interesting... I'm definitely going to take a look into this. Thanks for letting me know


Definitely look into a trainer and maybe start looking into a dog sport of some kind. Because of his aggression, you might just end up renting floor space and working alone but I find high energy dogs need some kind of outlet. We've a training facility that rents out floor space for $10 an hour with agility equipment available. It's indoor and completely enclosed so I didn't have to worry about other dogs. Maybe there is seething like that in your area where you could give him very focused exercise? 

Also, toys like this might catch his fancy: http://www.beaverspetproducts.co.nz/products/tug-tennis-ball Play can be a very powerful motivator. Talk to a trainer! All is not lost.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Sarah~ said:


> So his favorite thing on earth besides praise is his tennis ball, you can use that instead of treats? How would you do that on leash? And I would have to take his muzzle off, makes me nervous just thinking about it.


Does he like to tug at all? I would not use a ball for a reward on leash with a dog aggressive dog, but that is just me. Dog misses the ball, it goes flying, and your arm is dislocated or he breaks loose going for it and you have a loose, aggressive dog. Ball on a string *might* be and option, but I would still be uncomfortable with it, personally. 

Toys are seriously my favorite reward for all of dog training. I'm starting classes in 2014 that just teach puppy owners how to engage their puppy with toys, proper reward timing and fading/hiding the reward, how to properly tug and build drive in more shy puppies, how to use them for sports, etc. Seriously amazing the difference- people tend to prefer treat rewards, but dogs tend to prefer toys and playing much more. When I have a lazy/unmotivated dog in class (puppy or adult!) I pull out a few different toys to try and usually SOMETHING finally works and we have success. 

So, try the tug out, or a flirt pole. My Pittie LOVES both, with the drive it sounds like your dog has, I doubt it will be hard to engage with a safer method of play.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Sarah~ said:


> I would like to. I just don't know how they would be able to help, he is not food motivated (spits out all treats) if I use praise he gets too excited and can't hold still, the prong collar does not help when he decides to go after a dog and I am still on the fence about an e-collar. They are definitely everywhere, going to the vet is truly a nightmare.


The Kansas Humane Society offers a free of charge training program made specifically for reactive/aggressive dogs. You should check it out!


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> The Kansas Humane Society offers a free of charge training program made specifically for reactive/aggressive dogs. You should check it out!


Yes, I thought about that, I saw it looking at their website for classes for Xena, I was worried he might be too aggressive to be in a group of other reactive dogs, though. I could use his muzzle but I worry that the other dogs might target him. I'm going to call and ask about their policy on aggression.

He kind of likes to tug. I had to give him a command for tug because normally the second I start to pull he drops the toy immediately. I've never tried a flirt pole, he is usually content to fetch until he drops. But I see your point that if I mess up the throw (very likely) something bad could happen.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Yes, I thought about that, I saw it looking at their website for classes for Xena, I was worried he might be too aggressive to be in a group of other reactive dogs, though. I could use his muzzle but I worry that the other dogs might target him. I'm going to call and ask about their policy on aggression.


Pls call ! I am sure they have thought of that, and are offering classes that could accomodate your dog....Good luck! You and he will be sooo much happier!


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I had to give him a command for tug because normally the second I start to pull he drops the toy immediately.


That's such a nice quality IMO. My dog want's to play tug with everything, even tennis balls. If I let go, he puts it right back in my hand and wants me to hold on so he can pull!

Do you have a fenced yard, Sarah? If so, the flirt pole is a great outlet for dogs that like to chase. It can be a valuable tool for expending all that young GSD energy but not a lot of yours. I will play flirt pole with my lab a few minutes before any guest is due to arrive just so he's too tired to harass them as much as he'd like to (friendly). And on days when I don't have time for a long walk. It takes only 5-10 minutes to exhaust him. Love the flirtpole!


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Kudzu said:


> That's such a nice quality IMO. My dog want's to play tug with everything, even tennis balls. If I let go, he puts it right back in my hand and wants me to hold on so he can pull!
> 
> Do you have a fenced yard, Sarah? If so, the flirt pole is a great outlet for dogs that like to chase. It can be a valuable tool for expending all that young GSD energy but not a lot of yours. I will play flirt pole with my lab a few minutes before any guest is due to arrive just so he's too tired to harass them as much as he'd like to (friendly). And on days when I don't have time for a long walk. It takes only 5-10 minutes to exhaust him. Love the flirtpole!


Yes, our yard is fenced. Starting to really like the flirt pole idea too  his #2 favorite toy in the world is one of those cloth animals without the stuffing and squeakers, if you know what I am talking about? He loves to chase, and fetch, and bring it back to me. Any toy he has he would rather me throw it than tug or chew on it. If I had the energy or the time and space he would be a really good dog to play frisbee with, lol.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> Yes, I thought about that, I saw it looking at their website for classes for Xena, I was worried he might be too aggressive to be in a group of other reactive dogs, though. I could use his muzzle but I worry that the other dogs might target him. I'm going to call and ask about their policy on aggression.
> 
> He kind of likes to tug. I had to give him a command for tug because normally the second I start to pull he drops the toy immediately. I've never tried a flirt pole, he is usually content to fetch until he drops. But I see your point that if I mess up the throw (very likely) something bad could happen.


If it's anything like the class Snowball and I attended for reactivity, all of the dogs will be well away from each other (as in, out of lunging distance), and on-leash the entire session. If you're concerned about it, contact them and ask to speak to the trainer who leads the class.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Yes, our yard is fenced. Starting to really like the flirt pole idea too  his #2 favorite toy in the world is one of those cloth animals without the stuffing and squeakers, if you know what I am talking about? He loves to chase, and fetch, and bring it back to me. Any toy he has he would rather me throw it than tug or chew on it. If I had the energy or the time and space he would be a really good dog to play frisbee with, lol.


Flirt poles are great  I have one strung up to an outlying tree branch in our yard. It really helped Josefina's interactions with other dogs that's for sure ... I will try to post pictures ... But I am mobile ... I hope they come out 

Turns out I can't get photobucket to load >_<.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

I think the day I introduced Beaumont to the flirt pole may have been the happiest day of his life .


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yay for flirt poles  

Maybe someone can post pics and I will try when I can get to my laptop


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Here's a good reason for leashes-
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Tainted-meat-poisons-dog-at-Carkeek-Park-235940271.html

Read the comments...


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> Here's a good reason for leashes-
> http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Tainted-meat-poisons-dog-at-Carkeek-Park-235940271.html
> 
> Read the comments...


Well that is just scary. Was the dog even off leash though? Sounds like they were hiking and someone dropped it on the path, intending to get on leash dogs.


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## Joan Altz (Dec 17, 2013)

We don't even have leash laws where I live in the Philippines. Dogs run around just as freely as humans. Fortunately, we don't have many aggressive types here. Most are mixed Filipino dog. But me and my husband have a German Shepherd named Odee. Getting big now, even at 5 months old, and sounds really fierce. But when we take him out, of course we have him on a leash now. He is too friendly and people previously would see him coming and want to pick up a stick to protect themselves. We were worried Odee would be attacked, so we started the leash thing and also we live in a big house that is gated and walled around the property.


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