# AKC conformation show question re: multiple entries?



## Chabang (11 mo ago)

Hi all, I'm attending my second AKC show with my 9 month old puppy next month. I signed up for the 9-12 month puppy class and the amateur-owner-handled class. I then was told that if he doesn't place first in BOTH of these he won't be able to proceed further in the competition if he places first in just ONE. Which is a really big bummer. I assume I can go ahead and pull out of one of the classes to compete? My question is, which one would you compete in if you have to choose? Is one of the classes more easy to win than the other? Are points awarded the same for both classes? Or would you just go to both for the experience knowing I'm not likely place first in either considering this is a top show with tons of entries and we're very novice?


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

You will only get points if your dog wins his class, say the 9-12 puppy class and then goes on to be the Winners Dog (where all the winners of the regular classes compete against each other).

You say, "I then was told...," but don't say who did the telling. Call AKC and ask. You can also download and read their rules from their website. I've never seen anyone double enter in conformation like that, but why not find out for sure before forfeiting one of those entry fees? Maybe if it's against the rules, the show shouldn't have accepted a second entry on the same dog and you'll get that entry fee back.

Sure, go to the show for experience, chat to some of the others there. Particularly, see if there's any experienced person in the area who has handling classes. IMO it's a sad thing, but it's true that a big part of conformation showing isn't just the dog but how it's presented, which gives the professionals a big advantage.


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## Chabang (11 mo ago)

storyist said:


> You will only get points if your dog wins his class, say the 9-12 puppy class and then goes on to be the Winners Dog (where all the winners of the regular classes compete against each other).
> 
> You say, "I then was told...," but don't say who did the telling. Call AKC and ask. You can also download and read their rules from their website. I've never seen anyone double enter in conformation like that, but why not find out for sure before forfeiting one of those entry fees? Maybe if it's against the rules, the show shouldn't have accepted a second entry on the same dog and you'll get that entry fee back.
> 
> Sure, go to the show for experience, chat to some of the others there. Particularly, see if there's any experienced person in the area who has handling classes. IMO it's a sad thing, but it's true that a big part of conformation showing isn't just the dog but how it's presented, which gives the professionals a big advantage.


Hi, I did look up the rule here: https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/PDSTEW.pdf so I think it is true. I don't understand why they don't at least give you a warning message or something if you choose to apply your dog to more than one class. 
Here is the excerpt from the document:
"WINNERS AND RESERVE WINNERS. After all the regular classes have been judged, call into the ring all the dogs that have placed first in their classes so that the judge can select the Winners Dog. Only UNDEFEATED dogs that have won first prize in either the Puppy, 12-18 month, Novice, AmateurOwner-Handler, Bred by Exhibitor, American-bred or Open Classes are eligible to compete for Winners Dog. In other words, if a dog has been entered in more than one class and is defeated in any one of the classes in which they are entered, the dog is NOT ELIGIBLE to compete for Winners."
I was just wondering if Puppy vs AOH class would be "easier" to win or have less competition maybe.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Chabang said:


> I was just wondering if Puppy vs AOH class would be "easier" to win or have less competition maybe.


So the AKC Rules do cover your first question then. Entering more than one conformation class is counter-productive.

Which classes are easier to win depends on your breed, the area, and what's going on in the breed at the time. For instance, if a couple of breeders have had large litters that are in the 9-12 age at the time of the show, there may be a big entry in the puppy class. If no one in the area has bred for a while, there may be none. The same tends to be true in other classes, except Open, which usually gets the most entries in any breed at any time, but that's no place for a puppy. Really puppies need to be in puppy classes so that the judge makes allowances for the difference between mature dogs and puppies in his/her judging.

Some of the rarer or less popular breeds may have no entries at all or only a couple at a given show. I have a German Pinscher. That's not a numerous breed, and where I live there would probably be only one or two of the breed entered at even big show. In the areas of the country where there are several breeders, though, they all take as many of their dogs to a show as they can and have decent entries.

Once you've been to several shows and start paying attention to what goes on in your breed in your area, you'll get a better feel for that. If there's a local breed club, join and you'll also get insider gossip.


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## LeoRose (Aug 20, 2015)

If entries for the show haven't closed yet, you can contact the superintendent and cancel one of the entries. If entries are already closed, you're out of luck, because if you only show in one class, even if you win it, you can't advance to Winners, since your dog needs to be undefeated in every class they are entered in.

As far as entering puppy or AOH, it depends. Just because an owner meets the requirement for AOH, that doesn't necessarily mean they are inexperienced. On the other hand, there are some exhibitors and judges who automatically dismiss anyone showing in AOH just because "amateur".... If your dog is a very young puppy, and _looks _like a very young puppy, then entering the age appropriate Puppy class is probably the best option.


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## Chabang (11 mo ago)

LeoRose said:


> If entries for the show haven't closed yet, you can contact the superintendent and cancel one of the entries. If entries are already closed, you're out of luck, because if you only show in one class, even if you win it, you can't advance to Winners, since your dog needs to be undefeated in every class they are entered in.
> 
> As far as entering puppy or AOH, it depends. Just because an owner meets the requirement for AOH, that doesn't necessarily mean they are inexperienced. On the other hand, there are some exhibitors and judges who automatically dismiss anyone showing in AOH just because "amateur".... If your dog is a very young puppy, and _looks _like a very young puppy, then entering the age appropriate Puppy class is probably the best option.


Thank you. I wondered if a judge would be unlikely to pick a puppy as a winner. In the other groups, the judge wouldn't know. Because even if he wins best puppy, he gets zero points for that right? He'd still have to win the Winner's group. If the show entries has closed though, could I just not show up for the AOH class? Or does the fact that he's entered in the class (even if he doesn't compete) make him ineligible to advance to Winner's if he's picked as the best 9-12 month puppy? If that's true, then screw it, we'll just compete in both classes for the experience. If he wins one, the second place dog will be very happy since we're disqualified to move on to Winners. Lesson learned I guess.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Chabang said:


> Because even if he wins best puppy, he gets zero points for that right? He'd still have to win the Winner's group. If the show entries has closed though, could I just not show up for the AOH class? Or does the fact that he's entered in the class (even if he doesn't compete) make him ineligible to advance to Winner's if he's picked as the best 9-12 month puppy?


Points only come from the Winners class. Best puppy is just an honor. That's championship points. There are now higher awards like Grand Champion, but you don't need to worry about that until you have a champion.

As to just not showing in the AOH class, again, ask AKC.

In your shoes I'd stop worrying about higher awards and concentrate on doing a nice job in your class. Above all you want your puppy to have a good experience and enjoy it. Not only does the handler make a difference in conformation, so does the attitude of the dog. Dogs that are happy and show with a flair do better than those that just go through the motions, and dogs who just plain hate it force people to give up on showing in conformation no matter how nice the dog is.

Don't you have a breeder who can mentor you in this? I know you aren't always close to your breeder. My dog's breeder is halfway across the country from me, but she's always there via email to answer questions.


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## LeoRose (Aug 20, 2015)

If he's entered in both AOH and 9-12 Puppy, then yes, he would have to take first in both classes to advance to Winners. If he got first in one, but not the other, either because be got beat for first place or was counted absent, he would be ineligible for Winners. 

Best Puppy in Show is an honorific award, but doesn't count for points. Only Winners Dog and Winners Bitch are awarded points. As to whether or not puppies do well in the Winners class, again, it's a case of "it depends". 

As a further FYI, entering more than one class makes calculating points a bit trickier, since what looks like a major on paper might not actually be if a single dog counts as two or more entries, and some people can be, well, not very nice about things like that.


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