# Free Susan Garrett's "recallers" guest pass for June 29th



## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Click on link in description box of video to sign up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssB74FjdUo


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Just signed up. Thanks for the heads up!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for sharing! I saw the announcement and signed up.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks! Signed up!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Signed up!

As someone who does web design, marketing, and creating landing pages for a living, the sign up process warmed my heart.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Awesome! Signed up! Thanks for letting us know


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks! Signed up!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

You're welcome. I'm excited to see how this goes.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Signed up and looking forward to it. Thanks Hector4!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Canyx said:


> Signed up and looking forward to it. Thanks Hector4!




No problem!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

I received no email today for the guest pass? Did anyone get anything?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Hector4 said:


> I received no email today for the guest pass? Did anyone get anything?


I was just wondering the same thing as I haven't received anything either.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Just got an email and had to enter my name and email address again, and I should be expecting another email and an IPLAY ebook to download within 10 minutes...


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I too just received an e-mail that is timestamped approximately 3 minutes prior to Canyx's post here.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I got the email, but haven't been able to load the registration page. Guess that's what happens when you're trying to get a free class.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CCCCRRRRRRRRrrrrrraaaaaaaasssshhhhhh..........
Haven't been able to load the login either 

Which is to say... STOP REFRESHING, COOKIEFACE, SO I CAN LOG IT!!!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

okay, so did anyone get further than Canyx?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Got an email saying the server crashed since so many people tried to do it at once. Hahaa...


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

I got into my recallers account.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I was able to get in this morning.  Haven't logged in yet - it's lots of videos, right? Everyone else is asleep and I don't want to make more noise than necessary.



Canyx said:


> Got an email saying the server crashed since so many people tried to do it at once. Hahaa...


I got the same email.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

cookieface said:


> I was able to get in this morning.  Haven't logged in yet - it's lots of videos, right? Everyone else is asleep and I don't want to make more noise than necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> I got the same email.


No videos, just an intro vid and a downloadable e book type of thing. Maybe I missed something? It says the recallers officially start July 1st.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Hector4 said:


> No videos, just an intro vid and a downloadable e book type of thing. Maybe I missed something? It says the recallers officially start July 1st.


That's what I got. Just the intro and one pdf download. Looking forward to starting this


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Posting to get updates as we are in this as well!

Maybe I'll actually be able to focus on it now that we're not in other classes ATM.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Canyx said:


> That's what I got. Just the intro and one pdf download. Looking forward to starting this


Me too! I did the distractions list for both Marley and Nova...it was longer than I thought it would be :\


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Gotta love server crashes. 
(Also I'm still in love with their web design/marketing team.)

Anywho, we're gonna do this. Anyone want to share their distraction lists?

Here ours:
Toys	0
kibble	1
dog treat	4
pizzle	8
other dogs	10
rats in cage	3
rats outside cage	10
cat	1
outdoors	6
distance	9
other people moving	5
open front door	6


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## Sugarplum (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm doing this as well! I saw it on Facebook. I'm so excited! I need to read the ebook


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Our distraction list;

0- noise
1- birds, toy
2- kibble
3- distance
4- person- idle (a person just around)
5- cats- known (our cats)
6- smells (I wasn't sure how to categorize this since certain smells might be more distracting), dog treats, thrown toy
7- another dog, close motion (cyclist, runner, etc)
8- person- distracting (actively trying to engage with her), human food
9- deer
10- squirrel, rabbits, cats- unknown (random cats out and about)


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Nova:

Cyclist/runners -0
Distance - 1
Dogs nearby (no toys) - 2
Strange dog/handler playing with Chuck-it! - 3
Opportunity to swim - 4
Good smells on ground - 5
Front door window - 6
SO walking away at dog park - 7
Wildlife (cats, birds, rabbits) - 7-8
Food on ground- 8
Flirt pole/ball thrown/frisbee thrown - 9-10
Doorbell ringing/someone at door - 10

Marley:

Cyclist/runner - 0
Birds (outside of yard) - 0
Thrown frisbee - 1
Dogs nearby (after a minute or two at dog park) - 2
Opportunity to swim - 3
SO walking away at dog park - 4-5
Cats/rabbits - 6-7
Fluffy toys/Kong Wubba - 8
First dog seen at dog park - 9
Good smells (esp. in backyard) - 9 
Stranger or strange dog around property/birds in yard - 9
Food (anywhere) - 10
Someone at door/bell ringing - 10


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## Sugarplum (Jan 7, 2015)

For my 6mo old Loki 
0-toys,sticks he chews on
1- noises
2-cars
3-smells 
4-mud,plants
5-when he gets zoomies
6-distance 
7-tissues(gross I know but he grabs them any chance he gets) 
8-kibble/dog treats
9-our other animals, people food
10-water, all unknown animals(other dogs-birds-deer-rabbits etc), all people, lol

Jasper already has amazing recall to the point where everything is pretty much at zero, he has a few ones but that's it, Loki is just not getting it with what I've been trying so far lol so I'm really looking forward to this and hope it helps!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks, I signed up too out of curiosity! I wasn't sure exactly what this list thing was looking for so I came up with a couple multiples and I'm sure I will just keep thinking of more. 

Kairi's list..

Unmoving Toys : 0
People walking by on walks/in public : 0
People running while on walks : 1
Birds : 2
Frisbee or ball thrown : 2
Things to sniff on walks : 3
Dogs walking by calmly : 4
Motorcycles : 4
Food smell on floors at dog classes : 5
Dogs reacting : 6
Fast moving flirt pole like toys or people playing tug : 6
People food on the street /yard : 7
Dogs running : 8
Vacuum : 9
Doorbell ringing or knocking : 9 
People walking by the fenced yard/show up at house : 9
Squirrels at almost any distance : 10


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

It's kind of difficult for me to come up with a list because mine are never off leash so I can't really tell what's more distracting for them.

Ryker:

People-6
Distance-7
Dogs- 6
Toys- 1
Cats (strange) -10
Our cat - 2
Squirrels/birds - 1
Animal scent trails - 10
Food on ground/floor - 0
People coming into the house - 8
Me standing still, calling and waiting in yard - 6
He's never seen a rabbit or deer, but I'm assuming it would be a 10


Gypsy:

Food on ground/floor - 5
Dogs - 10
People - 6
Cats (strange)- 10
Our cat- 9
Squirrels/birds- 9
Animal scent trails -10
Toys- 0
People coming into house- 2
Me standing still, calling and waiting in yard - 4


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm working on Katie and Tyson's lists, but it's hard. What's the difference between a level 7 and a level 6 distraction? And some are context specific; at home, Katie works happily with food on the table, in training class, food left on a chair or ledge is a major distraction.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't know, I didn't really go too deep into it. My list would be 10 pages long if I rated their reaction to everything under every circumstance, location, etc. I just chose the things that I felt that we struggle with the most and then some lower scoring things because it said to add those as well.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm over thinking. I wasn't until I saw her examples. Our lists

Katie
other dogs - 7
critters (rabbits, deer, large birds) - 7
small birds - 1
flock of small birds - 4
thrown balls - 8
people - 7
noise - 1
accessible food - 6
inaccessible food - 3
toys - 0
Tyson - 8
Casey - 10+
5 o'clock Charlie - 10


Tyson
other dogs - 10+
critters (rabbits, deer, birds) - 7
thrown balls - 5
strangers - 2
known people - 5
noise - 2
accessible food - 10
inaccessible food - 7
toys - 0
Katie - 9
distance - 7
Casey - 9


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm an optimist - I'm going to try it with Shep. His distractions include waking up and trying to stand up ;-)


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

*Ida's List:*
Food - 5
Pinecones - 8
Dryer sheets - 10
Kleenex - 10
Other paper garbage - 10
Wildlife - 8
People - 8
Dogs - 5
Toys - 3
Distance - 3
Water - ? (Up until this week, she's been terrified of water, but she absolutely adores the kiddie pool that I bought on the weekend, so who knows.)

*Snowball's list: *
Distance - 3
Food - 8
Bones/Food garbage - 10
Rabbit poop - 10
Dogs (when Snowball is offleash) - 2
Dogs (when Snowball is on-leash) - 5
People - 5
Toys - 0
Grass - 5
Doorbells - 10
Dogs on TV - 10


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Do you know when the free guest pass closes? I've been too busy to follow along, hoping it stays open so I can try and do it next week.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

jade5280 said:


> Do you know when the free guest pass closes? I've been too busy to follow along, hoping it stays open so I can try and do it next week.


Nothing has actually started yet. They had issues with their server and unexpected numbers of people signing up for the free pass so they delayed the start a bit. I just got an email yesterday with the signup info again so I'm presuming it's still good at least for a while.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Oh I read through the first thing, but didn't get to the actual activity part


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea nothing else has started yet as far as I can tell.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I think the actual games start on Monday.


> Our first Game will be released on Monday, however, we already have thousands of students working away on their first “iPLAY” assignment that we handed out in the form of a downloadable ebook.
> 
> Once you download your “iPLAY” make sure to visit the Recallers Chat and introduce yourself to the rest of the community! We have the best community of dog lovers in the world, and we absolutely love welcoming new people to our world.


The first assignment is to rank your dog's distractions.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

cookieface said:


> I think the actual games start on Monday.
> 
> 
> The first assignment is to rank your dog's distractions.


Very astute cookieface! That'll teach me to actually read things...


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Very astute cookieface! That'll teach me to actually read things...


I had to read a few times (after I logged in and was disappointed that nothing had changed) to actually figure out when it starts.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Cool! I should be able to participate next week!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

The first video and game have been released. I started watching the video, but it starts with an overview of classical and operant conditioning. Certainly necessary stuff, but it was far more interesting when my psych prof included stories of UFO sightings and shenanigans in the rat lab.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I think she did a great job of explaining the two types of conditioning and her whole point against punishments.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I started doing the collar grabs with Kairi. She already kinda knows the game, but definitely does not mind at all. Ember doesn't like being grabbed at one bit, so this will be good for her and husband to work on. I'm working on it too with Ember just because she is more difficult. 

Now.. my problem is coming up with "surprise" treats. I'm pretty sure she knows they are in my pocket.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Canyx said:


> I think she did a great job of explaining the two types of conditioning and her whole point against punishments.


Agree, I thought it was nicely put and relatable for the average person. My BF stopped and watched most of the video with me.

We did some grabs yesterday and this morning. Luna is generally good with all handling so she doesn't care, but never hurts to practice. I have done this game with other dogs at the shelter before, but not with her. I'm also having the issue of making the treats a surprise in doing it at random times. 

I also realized today that I also was forgetting to feed while still holding the collar, gotta improve on that today.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Canyx said:


> I think she did a great job of explaining the two types of conditioning and her whole point against punishments.


Oh, I'm sure it is very good, but there's only so many times I can listen to the same information, you know? I'll listen at work while I'm doing mindless stuff.

We've done collar grabs in most of our classes, but it never hurts to do more! 

ETA: Her explanation of basic learning theory is very good and I can see how it would resonate with those new to training. Still, I'd like something more nuanced.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also I've added garbage bags (not ours, but on garbage day walks she must sniff them ALL) and cat food to our distraction list. Cat food is more interesting than cats. Only times Luna has gone through the gates (through the cat door, mind you) is to get leftover cat food.

Even mid chase of a cat, she will stop when they go through the gate, even though she knows full well she can fit through because she will reliably do it to get leftover cat food when the opportunity is presented.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Weee good thing we did the collar grab game in my other Fenzi class! I totally forgot to work on it during our walks though lol!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

:-( I signed up early and received an email on July 2, but I haven't received any more emails or notice of the videos? Suggestions?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> :-( I signed up early and received an email on July 2, but I haven't received any more emails or notice of the videos? Suggestions?


Did you get a user name and password? If so, I'd try logging in http://www.brilliantrecalls.com/login/

If not, try [email protected]


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also check your junk mail. I noticed I got a couple thrown in there for some reason even though other emails from them came through normally.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

GameDay#2, Its Yer Choice. We are very familiar with this program. I am turning something over in my head... In her lecture, and more in depth in her ebook, Susan talks about the pitfalls of "Leave It." I get what she's saying but I am still having a hard time getting around the idea of not teaching a dog to leave it. I mean, Leave It and Its Yer Choice are the same thing on the basic level, especially with the foundation game with the treats in hand... 'It's your choice to leave it, and for choosing that I will give you a different/better reward." The way I see it, the formal Leave It command is just attaching the cue. I imagine it easier to teach a generalized Leave It than to teach a dog to generalize never eating something off the ground (the most pertinent example for me). Especially in everyday situations, I give my dog a lot of freedom to sniff during walks and we are not in training mode. I would not expect him to choose to refuse food on the ground in such situations without being told to. I get that there is a roadblock when Leave It gives the dog not much of a positive alternative, especially if it's taught compulsively. But taught positively and in conjunction with Its Yer Choice... Is it still a bad or unwieldy command to have? I'll post this on the Game Day discussion area too and hope Susan will share her thoughts. But interested in your takes as well.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Canyx said:


> GameDay#2, Its Yer Choice. We are very familiar with this program. I am turning something over in my head... In her lecture, and more in depth in her ebook, Susan talks about the pitfalls of "Leave It." I get what she's saying but I am still having a hard time getting around the idea of not teaching a dog to leave it. I mean, Leave It and Its Yer Choice are the same thing on the basic level, especially with the foundation game with the treats in hand... 'It's your choice to leave it, and for choosing that I will give you a different/better reward." The way I see it, the formal Leave It command is just attaching the cue. I imagine it easier to teach a generalized Leave It than to teach a dog to generalize never eating something off the ground (the most pertinent example for me). Especially in everyday situations, I give my dog a lot of freedom to sniff during walks and we are not in training mode. I would not expect him to choose to refuse food on the ground in such situations without being told to. I get that there is a roadblock when Leave It gives the dog not much of a positive alternative, especially if it's taught compulsively. But taught positively and in conjunction with Its Yer Choice... Is it still a bad or unwieldy command to have? I'll post this on the Game Day discussion area too and hope Susan will share her thoughts. But interested in your takes as well.


I had a similar thought. I would want a backup word anyway.. because dogs are gonna dog. I mean I like the concept of ItsYerChoice but I don't see the issue with training a leave it.. which I taught a very similar way. Yeah it isn't a default, but I can ask Kairi to "leave it" and a large percentage of the time she does. While I can see ItsYerChoice definitely helping those harder cases.. I would still want her to know what "Leave it" is for those times she is gonna dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm following along with this, but not closely and not seriously and admit it. (Ie: I signed up, I'm seeing what she's offering and vaguely doing it, but overall it's things I do already and have done, so the dogs are upping the ante a bit but nothing horribly new). 

I taught the other dogs leave it. I did Its Yer Choice to a T with Molly and I see very, very little difference in real world results. Molly _has_ learned to back away from things she wants in a pretty generalized way, but the fact of the matter is - it is STILL LEAVE IT. All it really has done is taught her to use \ backing away/automatic leave it as a begging/asking behavior, and that's honestly great. I don't think having it on cue changes anything, though, anymore than having a dog automatically sit to get out the front door means you're losing something if you put 'sit' on a cue and use it somewhere else. 

I put leave it on a cue with Molly, just like the other dogs. I need it less with her, because hey, sit pretty is Kylie's default begging behavior and three steps back and a look to me is Molly's, but it's still something I have no compunctions in naming or having around as a backup, should it be necessary. 

So... it's nice to turn that into a default behavior for the dog to get what they want, but I don't think naming it or not makes one whit of difference.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Thinking about this more, I can think of many times when I want Molly to leave it/back away/move on, when it doesn't even occur to her to 'ask' via backing up. Because she's not asking me for it, she doesn't really want it that badly, it's just a thing that is there and I want to carry on with life. 

Being able to cue 'back off that thing, be chill and look to me' is still useful. She defaults away from toys, from food/edible things, from anything I've played the game with much, but she's never going to back away from another dog. She doesn't want the other dog, it's just got her focus. Cuing her to get her focus off that thing and pay attention to me is useful. 

Could I use other commands for those things? Yes. But I can't for the life of me figure out why, since leave it covers both watch me, and a move on type command, and a half-settle sort of connotation.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

What's the application for you though? Are you saying Molly's IYC training is generalized enough that if she sees a steak on the ground (classic example, I know) she would just back up and ask for permission? And what if she's free roaming in a safe off leash area? 
My situation is I can drop any food on the ground, and my extremely food motivated dog will not touch it until given permission. And on leash, I can do the same and also if we unwittingly come across edibles on a walk he has a pretty good generalized Leave It without the command and without him lunging or pulling toward it. But outside, which contains 95% of the things he is likely to find and I don't want him to eat, and off leash, he WILL leave it but only if given the command. Otherwise, I know what his behavior looks like when he catches whiff of something he wants to eat and tries to find it, so I tell him to Leave It and he stops the 'hunt.' Lastly, I somewhat compulsion trained Leave It. It was very early on before I 'knew better' and I did train the Leave It foundation with pretty much IYC. But in the real world he would lunge at food on the ground and impulsively I would jerk him away, which made him try to snatch things faster.... Which is to say, we had a long and winding road to developing our Leave It. So I will never get the chance to test if, for my dog, extensive IYC training would yield the same or better results than purely positive Leave It given the same amount of time and energy put into both.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm not sure what Susan will say, but this is how I see it... I teach all of my students (and a good amount of my private clients) IYC. Then once we get to the point where we are, say, dropping food on the ground, we pre-empt it with the "leave it" cue to teach that. Works pretty well. I think the connection between IYC and real life makes sense as you go through Recallers (as in, you don't HAVE to say "leave it" for the dog to recall past the piece of food on the ground), and I know with my own dogs if I drop something I don't have to say anything, they just don't go for it. Classic example is running Kimma at class one day and I dropped an entire meatball. I didn't realize I had done it (as I was running my butt off and had a bait bag on my belt), but my instructor said she DEFINITELY watched it fall yet ran right by it to keep on course. I can't always cue things, so I want to give my dogs the best shot at leaving stuff on their own. I personally find value in training the cue as well because I can say it before the dog even sees something, if such a situation comes up.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If she were off leash and I dropped a steak in front of her, she would. If she were off leash and near me, she would. If she were off leash and a good distance from me and just found a steak, she would not back up to ask, no. No way. That is a situation where I'd have to say leave it, because she's... not asking me for it then, she's going 'OH HEY I FOUND FOOD'. Likewise if she were running off leash and came across a stray ball I'd have to say 'leave it' to get her to leave it. If I'm trying to make her not chase a deer or eat deer poop, I'm going to have to use a leave it. It's fair game because it's just.. there. Or because there's no reward history for good decision making in those circumstances - I really am not sure which, but maybe both? 

The real world application though is that if I throw a ball (or disc) she'll retrieve it and then back off three steps or so to ask for a throw, and those are better than most food for her. If she wants to tug and I've lost it/let her win, she'll now put it down and step back until I pick it up and invite her to come back. If she's on leash and comes across food, she backs away from it and looks at me (or just keeps going). If I drop food in the house, again she backs off. If I'm eating dinner (and I do share because I'm awful) she steps back and waits. 

Basically, it hasn't stopped 'theft' or 'snatch' it type behavior in all circumstances. It's just become what she does when another dog (Kylie) would sit pretty, or Thud would offer a down, or Bug would sit emphatically. It really is, at least for Molly, basically a begging type behavior. Asking her not to steal stuff when it's unattended but available (ie: it's not something that I'm in control of/that comes from me or she sees as pure environmental opportunity) and/or I'm NOT readily there to 'ask' is a whole different thing and requires some actual input from me ( in the moment or not). It's Yer Choice was not going to stop her trash diving, but "No" did. 

And I don't really expect to ever reach the point where she goes 'hey, DEER POOP' and backs off, rather than just try and eat it.

*ETA:*


> I'm not sure what Susan will say, but this is how I see it... I teach all of my students (and a good amount of my private clients) IYC. Then once we get to the point where we are, say, dropping food on the ground, we pre-empt it with the "leave it" cue to teach that.


This is actually what I did with Molly. Only I think I took leaving it further before naming it.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Finkie_Mom said:


> I'm not sure what Susan will say, but this is how I see it... I teach all of my students (and a good amount of my private clients) IYC. Then once we get to the point where we are, say, dropping food on the ground, we pre-empt it with the "leave it" cue to teach that. Works pretty well. I think the connection between IYC and real life makes sense as you go through Recallers (as in, you don't HAVE to say "leave it" for the dog to recall past the piece of food on the ground), and I know with my own dogs if I drop something I don't have to say anything, they just don't go for it. Classic example is running Kimma at class one day and I dropped an entire meatball. I didn't realize I had done it (as I was running my butt off and had a bait bag on my belt), but my instructor said she DEFINITELY watched it fall yet ran right by it to keep on course. I can't always cue things, so I want to give my dogs the best shot at leaving stuff on their own. I personally find value in training the cue as well because I can say it before the dog even sees something, if such a situation comes up.


I understand what you're saying completely and I think that is balanced. But the sense I am getting from Susan's course is to eliminate the need for a Leave It command entirely. Which I think is not impossible, but improbable. I think recalling a dog past food is a very different scenario. The dog has an existing command and you are proofing it with a food distraction. The dog is choosing to obey the recall over the food. But what if a dog only has to choose food or no food (like finding food on the ground). Sure you can use a command, whether its recall or Sit or Leave It, so that it doesn't take the food. But you are then still presenting a choice (the alternative command). This was what I wrote in response to a reply on my post on the Game Day chat:

" I understand that if practiced often and diligently enough, a dog may learn to generalize all life situations, including all food encounters on the ground, as a chance to choose to leave the distraction without a cue. I guess the tradeoff for me was it was easier to train a generalized Leave It than to do all of that generalization training with ItsYerChoice. Living in a very urban area, it was very common to find everything from icecream, to fries, to chicken bones on the ground on a walk. I might not have worked up to that level of distraction ignorance with ItsYerChoice, but I had a pretty solid Leave It and would be able to reward his leaving the distraction with the low value treats in my pocket, because I did high value Leave It training in the house. I suppose if I worked harder at ItsYerChoice I might have a dog today that chose to leave all food on the ground always. The technique for getting that result does not elude me. But I have an obedient dog that likes to roam far afield, and I have a dog that is so easy to train because of his food motivation it can be a paradox when it comes to food on the ground. So just thinking about my dog and my situation, and thinking about all the high value food proofing, and distance proofing I would have had to do, I chose the ‘quicker fix.’ If there ever is one. For a dog like mine, I cannot imagine him choosing to leave, say, a chicken bone 50 feet away from me in a field he has been given permission to be free and sniff in… Unless he has NEVER had the chance to self reward with food on the ground, and has been taught an appropriate response to loose food since day 1 of his life and in his history of IYC training. And that is just not my reality.

Sort of like counter surfing… You can start day 1 with IYC and proper management (ie, not setting the dog up to fail by leaving cookies on the counter), and the dog will one day become the kind of dog that never counter surfs, even if alone in the house with a steak on the side of the counter. That dog has never failed and thus becomes a dog that will never fail. I have that dog, when it comes to counter surfing.
But if a dog has a history of counter surfing, ESPECIALLY if it’s been punished for doing so… You can use IYC to teach it not to, even to the point where you can leave cookies out on the table, go to the bathroom, and they’ll still be there. But in the absence of an owner, in the absence of YOU as a choice, but presented with both the reward and choice of jumping up and taking what’s there, AND with a memory of a former rewarding experience counter surfing, I would say it is impossible for a dog to choose anything but counter surf. Really, it has no better choice than to do it. So in this scenario, and in mine where I was unsuccessful at never letting him ever eat garbage outside, I think management becomes mandatory."

I have no idea how to make that concise.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think it's important to remember two things about Garrett:

She is first and foremost an agility instructor, with an eye toward teaching agility. That isn't what this course is geared toward, but it is where she is coming from even with this. 

She is a person who knows how to train one, particular, type of dog and those methods work very well for those types of dog, but are by and large completely inapplicable to other sorts. She trains high drive (particularly and specifically toy drive), confident, high energy, highly biddable dogs. You don't see it so much in this course, but it still does leak through.

Both of those things mean that while she is wildly successful, she is not necessarily someone who's methods are going to work or be practical for every, or I'd dare so MOST, pet dogs.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

She markets her advice to be applicable to... almost anything. She cites zookeepers a lot. And I got the impression that this course was geared toward everyday owners. I am enjoying the information and its presentation so far. But to make a point to tell people to lean completely away from Leave It is a bit of a stretch for me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And there you have hit upon my fundamental issue with her, and why I resist her in spite of having one dog who would do well with her methods - I have one other agility dog that absolutely would not, two if you count Bug who is... not exactly serious but plays some. In fact her methods are ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE with Bug, because of the number of audio cues she uses in regards to agility, and don't work well for Kylie because Kylie lacked confidence and doesn't have a ton of toy drive or speed. 

There is good stuff there that I think could be made to work with nearly every dog and benefit most dogs, but she has a METHOD, and it is very black and white and based on the fact that she is a high level *agility* competitor, who runs border collies. If you aren't that person or you are dealing with a really different type of dog or dog who has issues or you're in a unique environment, you're kind of SOL - usually. I don't think she even realizes how rigid she is, sometimes. 

Well, except that one Q and A session where someone asked about a deaf dog re: agility and she just said 'nope, won't work' rather than pointing them toward another method that WOULD (like OMD). 

Of course, she has a lot of students online and not, who pay her a lot of money to teach them, so targeting the demographic that pays the bills makes sense to me. I just wish she acknowledged more how influenced she is by her dogs and her background. I have never seen her work with a frightened dog, a dog that was lower energy or drive, or wasn't a biddable breed, though - like ever, anywhere, student or not. 

**ETA:** I'm not trashing her, I'm really not, but I think anyone who promotes their way as applicable to all dogs, doesn't adjust their methods or think outside their box, is probably worth being wary of. I also think that as in ALL trainers you take what works and leave what doesn't. Basically, she's a great agility trainer, but she's not dog training Jesus, and when things don't make sense to you, for your dog, that doesn't mean the failing is YOU. It means it's a *system* designed around specific dogs and methods that work for them.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Hmm. Well put. This is my first dive into the world of renown trainers and their online courses, so this is all new to me. I don't doubt she is a great trainer, but I've never really had to analyze a method like this because I usually just search for what I need and the right method/trainer's advice pops up on google.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

The responses I got:

From Susan:
"Think of it this way. If you tell your dog to “leave it” you are taking all of the responsibility onto your own shoulders. Telling the dog I will constantly keep an eye on you and if you consider eating something you shouldn’t I will tell you “leave it” but if I don’t happen to hear me say “leave it” you go ahead and eat it what you find.

I would prefer to work towards my dogs never eating anything they find. Trust me it, the training is never completely “done”. I will on occasion have to use my dog’s name to recall them away from something I see them sniffing a lot. If I think there is something my dogs might have considered eating I will;

1). Recall them with their name away from what they are looking at.
2). Go and see what got their interest, make note of it and then train IYC away from it at home.

I have 3 Border Collies and 1 Jack Russell that live loose in the house all the time (my puppy is crated still when we leave). I can’t tell you the number of times I have been doing something like cutting dog nails with a bowl of food on the floor and got distracted and left the house only to come back a couple of hours later and the entire bowl of treats is still there. I love playing IYC…if you re-visit it regularly (like while watching TV) it is more and more layers of learning to add to your dog’s understanding."

From an inner circle recaller:
"I will tell you about my oldest dog. She is a resuce, had spent time on the street. She arrived a very high level resource guarder and was a chronic scrounger. This was how she lived before she came to us, to survivie only.

There is no way in the world she would have left any food, anywhere, and was wired to look for things to eat. This dog knew when there was a chicken bone 20 km away, and wanted to tow me to every garbage bin in the world. Fast forward many years and it never, ever occures to me she will scrounge. I can not remember the last time I asked her to ‘leave’ something.

This did not happen overnight, but it did happen"

My question:
"Thanks for your reply Susan. I guess this is what I'm trying to figure out. You wrote, "I will on occasion have to use my dog’s name to recall them away from something I see them sniffing a lot."

So isn't recall in that situation a necessary form of management in a situation where the dog chooses to focus (maybe not eat, yet) on the distraction but was managed by you so they would regain their focus on you? So if I taught my dog 'Leave It' to mean 'leave that alone and you will get something better from me,' wouldn't that achieve the exact result that you got? And with enough Its Yer Choice training, would you ever reach the point where you wouldn't even need to think about recalling because your dog chose to ignore food through IYC through so much repetition, it wouldn't be sniffing something potentially edible to begin with?"


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I didn't get the impression that she was suggesting you never use 'leave it' as a cue. 

Also, she said she started training terriers? Not BC's or other 'traditional' agility dogs. So I'm not entirely buying that this method only works for a certain type of dog. 

What I took from the video was that you're trying to teach your dog to make good choices on their own vs constantly having to watch and direct their behaviour. So it's important that you're not giving any input in the IYC game and the dog is just choosing to do the behaviour you want. Essentially building a reinforcement history of -not- going for the thing to where not going for the thing becomes default, and gives you those few seconds or whatever to redirect as necessary. 

We do this game in more real life situations vs setting it up as a training exercise. Luna knows that if she wants a piece of our food, she should go lay on her bed, which I never formally trained with a cue. Also, she knows not to immediately go for it when I put her food toy down, because I'll just pick it up again- so she sits and waits for her release cue.

In the actual game she was terrible, hahaha. I played this with her back when we first got her, but haven't really revisited since then and boy was she determined to get the food out of my hand. Eventually she settled on doing a down, which I figured was good enough.

I'm interested to see how this transfers to things I don't have control over. Like the cats (who have actually been kind of teaching their own IYC which has been interesting to observe), or smells, or bits of things apparently yummy that I didn't know were there until Luna was gobbling it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, yes, she did start with terriers, which are. Um, maybe not super biddable but sure are high drive for both play, prey, and toys. 

Like I said, I am not trashing her, but odds of getting a golden or bc to consistently make 'good choices' (which honestly is just generalizing to leave things) versus a hound are kind of huge. I love that you got an answer though and I LIKE that answer. I particularly like the one from the inner circle because honestly I can see, years from now Molly merrily leaving whatever without having to be told to leave very much. Maybe. Years and years from now.

Then again most of my fundamental training principals with her are 'ignore the environment and what's in it' anyway.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I won't ever not teach a "leave it". Like it has already been said, ItsYerChoice seems just like a "leave it" without the verbal cue to me. How does ItsYerChoice translate from leaving food to leaving animals/people? 

If you are teaching your dog to make good decisions by rewarding them for those decisions, what incentive do my dogs have for not chasing wildlife, nothing I could offer them would be a more high value reward than chasing another animal. I think your dog has to have some kind of concept of recall and staying relatively close for this to work...which mine obviously do not have lol. 

Not saying that the information is totally useless because teaching impulse control is important and has been very useful for me.

I do know people who have their hounds off leash...often with E collars, but that doesn't stop them from running off when they feel like it. That's just not okay with me and it's not a chance that I will ever take.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Got an answer from Susan:

"that is said I would observe a choice I didn’t like recall my dog away from it and then go home and train it.
So first off *the Recall is a highly rewarded behaviour that means “come to me.” It is build from layers upon layers of games that are focused on me. *The rewards in those games comes from choices all about my relationship with my dog.
*Your leave it cue would be built from a game where a dog focuses on something he wants to eat and sometimes he gets to eat it and other times he doesn’t* So your leave cue would mean “attempt to eat anything you like and I will be responsible for telling you the ones I would prefer you not eat.”

Key difference number two. Is that with your “leave it cue” it would be the end of the game. The relationships between you, the cue and the dog is when I see my dog about to eat something I don’t want him to eat I will tell him not to. So for the rest of his life you will be forever telling him “leave it” when he finds deer poop (for example).

What I said I would do is use my recall cue to bring the dog away from that deer poop, go and investigate what got his curiosity and then go home and play IYC with deer poop until it became a thing my dogs recognized as something they should never bother with.

Hope that makes it all clear to you now. I will happily invest a small amount of my time training something in a young dog so that I don’t have to take the rest of that dog’s life managing his choices."

Okay, I can rest easy with that. I still might teach a leave it to a future dog but the effect of using a recall, if it's something built up to have that much value and power, versus a leave it, isn't nothing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

...why would you be forever telling a dog to leave the same thing forever, though? And what does that have to do with the strength of a recall? Ie: I CAN recall Molly away NOW instead of using leave it - or I can say leave it and have her return to me. Then I CAN go home and work on leave it OR IYC with deer poop until she automatically leaves it? What does using the command or naming it have to do with anything? And are you not still going to have to generalize IYC for every novel thing? I mean, yes, I see how having a strong recall helps and I can see how both leave it and rewarding and playing the game build reward/value in you making the dog more willing to leave, but what does ANY of that have to do with a leave it command?

I' m missing something here. Help me?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Seems like semantics to me. The bolded sentences (are they Susan's?) make me think it's some sort of relationship thing: the dog focuses / wants to be with me because of our super relationship instead of the dog focuses on a random desired item and then comes to me for a reward.

I do get the point of the dog thinking anything he hasn't been specifically told to leave is up for grabs versus leaving things unless specifically told he can have them. 

For us, leave it has become almost like an attention cue: Katie sniffs something a little too long, "leave it!", she looks at me, we continue our walk.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Just to clarify, her answer doesn't leave me with a sudden ray of clarity and a feeling of being uplifted... But I see what she means about what SHE sees as an incredibly rewarding and much built upon command (Recall), would be more motivating to the dog if Leave It were taught as she described, which is "built from a game where a dog focuses on something he wants to eat and sometimes he gets to eat it and other times he doesn’t." Like what cookieface says, semantics. My Leave It is not the Leave It she describes. My ideal Leave It is probably something like her Recall (the dog finds it rewarding to Leave It because it means awesome things come from me)... Which is basically Its Yer Choice put to a cue...... and round and round and round..........


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Ummm, I would rather put a cue on IYC and potentially have to use that cue forever than bring home and play with deer poop


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

The cynical side of me thinks that she made a name (and $$$) for herself with recallers and IYC, so she's going to promote them as the answer to everything.



pawsaddict said:


> Ummm, I would rather put a cue on IYC and potentially have to use that cue forever than bring home and play with deer poop


<snort>


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> Ummm, I would rather put a cue on IYC and potentially have to use that cue forever than bring home and play with deer poop


 ROFL. What, you don't have turds of various animal poop in your freezer like the rest of us?!


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

jade5280 said:


> ROFL. What, you don't have turds of various animal poop in your freezer like the rest of us?!


I guess I'm just not that dedicated to the cause. Lmao!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm being overun with deer this year. I am SURE the Post Office would love me if I started mailing it out


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I'm being overun with deer this year. I am SURE the Post Office would love me if I started mailing it out


 Wow, you're a genius! You could make millions. I'll take 5 turds please


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

In our LLW class, the instructor actually brought containers of various poop along with hay (straw?) from her barn, food in multiple stages of science project, and other people on skateboards. It was a fun class.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

cookieface said:


> In our LLW class, the instructor actually brought containers of various poop along with hay (straw?) from her barn, food in multiple stages of science project, and other people on skateboards. It was a fun class.


I've never been to a class where that much effort was put into creating distractions. It does sound like a fun class.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Me either. Or agility distraction were bowls of food and treats, some toys, and the other dogs running/walking in the opposite direction.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

In our advanced life skills class Luna recalled across the room to me past the other dogs working within a couple feet of her, and the instructor sitting in a chair right in her path. Not speedily but... she made her way over and didn't investigate the distractions. It was possibly one of my most proud moments.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I should probably look at the free recallers stuff....


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I should probably look at the free recallers stuff....


Yes!!!! And, quickly before the Free window of opportunity closes.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Okay, Susan Garrett. You can stop emailing me about continuing on with recallers now. I get it....still not signing up.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

pawsaddict said:


> Okay, Susan Garrett. You can stop emailing me about continuing on with recallers now. I get it....still not signing up.


Yeeep. I had to move her to spam. 

Jeeze, lady.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Right?! Even if I was interested in enrolling, the relentless emails would have would have talked me right out of it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah. I've always gotten an infomercial vibe from her free stuff, but at this stage it's even worse, somehow. Waaaaay too aggressive.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Totally. I was actually really turned off when, on Game Day 4, you had to follow a link to basically one giant advertisement. I got really irritated by that and didn't even watch the video on that page.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The thing that kills me is obviously she's got paid material, she makes her living doing this. It's just - the sheer aggressiveness of her sales tactic is such a turn off. Put a two minute blurb at the end of the video, send an email with a link to the paid material ONCE, and make it accessible on the page with the video. She is known. She is established. She has a strong presence already. The spam and shove it down your throat is just NOT something she needs to be doing.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I absolutely agree. The whole free recallers program is basically a preview of the paid version anyway. If people are interested, it's going to be because of that. The spamming really isn't necessary (or beneficial)...unless she's really slashing prices. Then she's more than welcome to email me


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> I absolutely agree. The whole free recallers program is basically a preview of the paid version anyway. If people are interested, it's going to be because of that. The spamming really isn't necessary (or beneficial)...unless she's really slashing prices. Then she's more than welcome to email me


Well, she is really slashing prices. The regular program is over 2k and it's being offered for $400soemthing I believe. 

Is there actually a game day video for day 4? I didn't have time to sift through the ad page.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm sad because the 4 games she introduced for free were games we already do with Meeko. I can't afford her recallers program x_x I wish I could because I would totally sign up ugh.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My problem witty the price is...

If I am paying even four hundred dollars for something, I do no want to be part of a class that big, with that little eyes on, personalized attention. There is more in play than the content in deciding if it's worthwhile. Not that I can afford it right now, but that's at least in part because I'd rather spend my money on someone local, who knows me, who can give immediate feedback, and to whom my access to isn't crazy limited.

That isn't criticism of her, just not something I want to spend my money on.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I admit I wasn't following the entire thing (i.e. I only watched Day 1 video and haven't played any games), but looking through my email history she wasn't out of line. Email marketing best practices say that two emails on the last day of a launch perform best - she did 3. 

I feel the biggest shortcoming of her launch, and one that is causing most of the "too aggressive" reaction, was that it wasn't made clear she was selling anything until fairly late into the process. In the videos I did watch (and the emails I got, which I read all of them), free was emphasized highly, and the sales pitch only stared showing up the 15th, which leaves a 5 day window for the actual sales opportunity. And in that, it was a single line in an otherwise standard email about Game Day 4, which then led to a landing page that was primarily sales, which would be unexpected by most. 

The launch itself I thought was actually extremely well run process-wise. Lots of free educational content was given away (4 pieces, incidentally, which is also a launch best-practice), followed up with a webinar during the actual sales portion of the launch cycle. Very well done. 

I just wish it was made clear up front that it was a -launch- and not a "we're doing this out of the goodness of our hearts" branding exercise. 

I bet there were quite a few sales lost and overall impression tainted just due to that particular oversight.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea, I would have thought of it differently if it were presented as "Here is a trial of our product, at the end of the trial you will be given the option to purchase the full version at a discounted rate" vs "Omg we're giving away our class for free!!!"


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I knew it was a pitch for the paid Recallers and suspect most other people did, too - or, at least most people who know who Susan Garrett is and know that her recallers course is incredibly expensive. I WAS however hoping there would be something in the release that wasn't stuff already all over. It's yer choice is all over youtube (and has been FOREVER), and nothing else was anything that I haven't heard a dozen times. 

A lot of people don't do well on with hard sales/aggressive pushes and get annoyed by email spam. I'm one of those people. You can email me directly ONCE, or when something changes in the future (also once), more than that I am gone and the email's all being sent to spam and I'm never going near you again. It just annoys the crap out of me. I realize that as marketing it's successful enough to be an actual strategy, but it turns me off in a really major way. 

As sales tactics go a week long infomercial with material readily available other places/already leaked from recallers followed by a hard sales pitch didn't do much for me.

Then again, I think it's pretty clear (to everyone, all over) that Garrett gets on my last nerve so I'm incapable of NOT being irritated by her on some level.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> My problem witty the price is...
> 
> If I am paying even four hundred dollars for something, I do no want to be part of a class that big, with that little eyes on, personalized attention. There is more in play than the content in deciding if it's worthwhile. Not that I can afford it right now, but that's at least in part because I'd rather spend my money on someone local, who knows me, who can give immediate feedback, and to whom my access to isn't crazy limited.
> 
> That isn't criticism of her, just not something I want to spend my money on.


I pay just over $400 for an (almost) unlimited number of in-person classes a year. I like the idea of five-minute training games and lots of video demonstrations, but not for $400 (and certainly not for $2000).



ireth0 said:


> Yea, I would have thought of it differently if it were presented as "Here is a trial of our product, at the end of the trial you will be given the option to purchase the full version at a discounted rate" vs "Omg we're giving away our class for free!!!"


Even though I expected the sales pitch, it was a bit much and the whole premise of "I really think everyone needs to know this information, so I'm giving it away" followed by the hard sell left me with a bad feeling. And really, nothing in her free content was new to me. I suspect lots of her content gets trickled down through the dog training community by instructors who take her class and then share bits and pieces with students.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm just saying that 3 emails on the last day of a launch isn't out of line by marketing standards.  It's pushing ideal, of course, and I personally would've stuck with two for this particular launch, given the lead up to it. 

The quality of the content given away, of course, is another story. Although this launch was very clearly targeted towards your average pet owner - I'd hazard a guess that any of us regulars on DF are a little different than the average pet owner. 

(Case in point, yesterday I spent two hours talking to a couple who own dogs about such novel concepts as appeasement signals, mental exercise requirements, and the detriment of house training via "push-nose-into-pee" method.)

To them, IYC would be very much a novel concept.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, sure. But are people who can't look into a local training place with a basic manners class for 75-150 dollars, or do a google search about common dog behavioral problems and access that free information, actually going to find a world famous agility instructor offering an online course for 400.00 whose basis is basically in getting your dog to come when called? (Yes, there is more to it than that, but on a superficial read of the course, it's 'recallers')

I REALLY doubt it.

I can't even figure out *what* her target demographic is with that combination of factors - except maybe sports people with new dogs?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

We did IYC as part of our basic obedience class, even. And the other games I saw were things I've already known about/done to some degree or another. 

So based on that it's really hard for me to see justifying spending $400+ on that level of content. 2k+ is just laughable. I mean, I'm sure lots of people find lots of value in the course (I saw that multiple people were doing it more than once) but man I don't drop 2k on ANYTHING, let alone an online training class. Maybe if I had a more 'problem' dog I'd be more interested, but even then I think I'd rather pay a couple hundred for in person individual assessment vs online videos.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't feel like I got much out of it. We have done everything before. I guess I was expecting something different that I hadn't tried before. I'm not sure how it progresses, but it felt pretty 'basic' to me for the price that it is being sold for. The e-mails didn't bother me, but the page for the last game day was a bit much with the advertisements.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah. I have to say restrained recalls, IYC, recalls with distractions, and collar grabs were all part of my foundations agility classes. I don't know, I feel like if she'd released anything novel in those four days I'd be more willing.

There are months where, with all associated expenses I spend that much money on dog related activities (I'm including gas and eating out and trial fees and the one month I bought 400.00 worth of a tent and chairs and a cooler and so on). I just couldn't justify it for material that seems that basic, even if the woman didn't make me twitchy. I am sure it's revolutionary for some people, I'm just not sure those people are her target audience, either. But like I said, I don't know WHO her demographic actually is.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

The appeal is the structure, the bite-sized pieces of information, the "fun and games" presentation vs a formal class that you have to go to, the "train on your own schedule" instead of having to make room in your schedule to attend an in-person class, etc. 

It's professional, she's got the celebrity status (vs a local nobody), and the price tag is a very psychological thing as well. Dropping $400 on it not only feels like a deal given the usual price, but it also feels like finally doing something productive about your dog's problems. It feels substantial enough that you will actually do the work for which you paid. Plus there's the community aspect, the "step by step" stuff that people love (magic bullets all the way!). 

For an average pet owner, I definitely see the appeal. (Would I do it? No, not even for free.) 
It's not positioned as a "raise the perfect puppy/sports dog", it's positioned as "fix common dog misbehaviours and improve your relationship with your dog". It's for average pet owners and their less-than-perfect dogs.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Also just want to add that out of the two classes I attended - Basic Obedience and Agility, the only thing that was covered was collar grab. No IYC, no recalls with distractions, no restrained recalls. 

This wasn't positioned for someone who regularly takes classes with their dog.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. I have to say restrained recalls, IYC, recalls with distractions, and collar grabs were all part of my foundations agility classes. I don't know, I feel like if she'd released anything novel in those four days I'd be more willing.
> 
> There are months where, with all associated expenses I spend that much money on dog related activities (I'm including gas and eating out and trial fees and the one month I bought 400.00 worth of a tent and chairs and a cooler and so on). I just couldn't justify it for material that seems that basic, even if the woman didn't make me twitchy. I am sure it's revolutionary for some people, I'm just not sure those people are her target audience, either. But like I said, I don't know WHO her demographic actually is.


Yep, we did all that stuff in all our basic "pet" classes. I do think she would have been smarter to release new games as part of the promo. I still wouldn't have registered for the full program, but it would have been a good way to entice folks who are interested in doing more with their dogs but not sure where to start.

As you said, it's just not clear who her target audience is.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I didn't say I didn't understand the appeal. I said I didn't understand who her target demographic is.

You mentioned people who didn't even understand not pushing a dog's nose into pee and mental exercise. Are these people actually going to find Susan Garrett? Is the average dog owner going to know that she's famous? Because frankly, I know some dog training people who stare vacantly and don't have a clue if you mention her name. She's famous because she's an agility trainer - unlike Cesar or Stillwell she isn't on TV. Her fame is from and inside agility, and she's only well known inside the dog community. 

How does someone who doesn't take classes with their dog find *her* and decide to take this free trial without coming across all the other information available online that's free re: dog training? How do you end up with a dog who has an issue, google it, and land at 'four hundred dollar online class with someone I've never heard much about' versus 'free youtube video by someone I've never heard much about'? I just - How do you be that uneducated and ignorant and *get* to Garrett, instead of kikopup or Zac George or Dunbar and his free material or even these forums? Assuming, of course, the having to leave the house and take a class isn't an option/something they want to do.

I get the psychological factor, but I think that the demographic she is supposedly targeting is not positioned to FIND her or give two leaps about her because, again, her ONLY training fame is in high level agility. And recallers, sure, but she's only known because of the agility success. She's just not known anywhere else. It's like talking about Bernadette Bay or Dawn Weaver, only a little bit more visible. Or Sharon Nelson, who DOES do a bunch of training stuff and is 'famous' within a well known group of people. Or One Mind Dog which actually has tons of promotion. 

Her name means nothing to people who aren't already in a dog community containing the right subset of people. 

ETA:
Maybe people just getting into dogs/training? Enough to recognize names and for the convenience of bite sized information, doing it at home, and to feel like they're doing something really cool to be appealing, but not far enough in to recognize what she's giving them isn't revolutionary/available somewhere (everywhere) else? That's pretty narrow but might work?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Given that I don't know the full promotional strategy of this launch and the fact that I came across it because of you guys here, I can only have a limited comment - and that is that I recall a lot of calls to action to share the promo videos and invite friends who have dogs. From that I can draw the conclusion that at least part of her promo strategy relied on virality/word of mouth, given that people who have dogs usually know other people who have dogs. 

But again, that is a limited view, I didn't follow the launch to analyze it from that perspective, so this is all post-factum analysis. 

The launch itself was very clearly targeted. Whether the promotion of the launch was targeted just as clearly - that I don't know. Some more insight could be gathered from the comments in the chat room, but TBH I'm too lazy to go sift through that lol. 

Also, you don't need to know who she is to feel the high production value of the launch, which in itself is highly trust-building. At least around me, most of the websites of the local trainers/academies make me cringe with their designs/usability - the difference between local nobody and online nobody-you've-ever-heard-of-but-has-all-these-trust-building-signals is palpable.

Kikopup, as excellent as her information is, feels less trustworthy that SG, just due to production values.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> but not far enough in to recognize what she's giving them isn't revolutionary/available somewhere (everywhere) else?


IMO the appeal isn't just in the information itself, which you could find in other places, but in the structure of it. She heavily emphasizes that games build one upon another, doing them in the right order is important, etc. Giving people a program to follow, even if it contains all the information/games that are available elsewhere piecemeal, is still going to get you a lot of sales. There's a lot of value in structure.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Realistically the goal was probably just that; to get her name out to more people. 

2k is IMO WAYYY outside of the price range the average dog owner is willing to pay for training. Most owners don't do any formal training at all, let alone an online class. So by offering it for such a significant 'discount' it makes it seem more accessible. I mean, really, it's roughly an 80% off discount. 

And again, if someone really was in such a terrible spot that they were willing to pay that much, I'd be willing to bet they'd be dealing with issues more extreme than recalls, and want in person help for their individual dog. 

Unless they were big into sports and wanted this as foundations, which IMO is still a lot of money to drop, especially since someone -that- into sports should have come across and know these basics already.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If I understand her Puppy Peaks program correctly, that actually seems worthwhile for someone who is relatively new to dog sports and raising their first performance puppy.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Unless they were big into sports and wanted this as foundations, which IMO is still a lot of money to drop, especially since someone -that- into sports should have come across and know these basics already.


Thinking about it more, this is sort of where my brain goes with it:

There are people who turn up in our agility classes sometimes, who don't really know a lot about dogs or dog training but *really* want to do agility. They saw it on TV, or ran across someone mentioning it and watched a video and think it looks cool. They're really into the idea of it and don't really have much idea of what goes into it. They are convinced they're going to high levels of competition and are going to be awesome and rock it and their dog is the next super-star. But they're taking it seriously from go, instead of playing around and learning as they go. 

They're RARE, and to be honest I've only seen one of those people even attend all three levels of in person classes and carry on once the reality check that comes along, but I can see those tiny, tiny few people managing to find out about Garrett and drop that kind of money on this kind of class. In fact, I think one of the people from Kylie's... second time through foundations actually did do the Puppy Peaks and Recallers Course with her first dog. I *think* based on some of the teaching I saw her do.

They're still agility people, though, or want to be agility people - not average pet owners. Or, well, they might be average pet owners but they're average pet owners who WANT to do dog sports/agility, and know enough to know Garrett's big in agility but not quite enough to know that local resources or other online resources would maybe be a better use of their money. They are, however, *still* angling for agility, you know?

(So, basically what cookieface said while I was typing)


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

To be fair, although I had heard her name a handful of times I didn't know -who- she was or what she did until this course was offered.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I really think that you have to want to do agility to have much of a clue. Like, seriously, if you don't want to at least try agility, her name just doesn't come up. And if you do want to/do agility, if you're not big on the online stuff and in the right circles, you will STILL miss knowing about her for at least a while.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Realistically the goal was probably just that; to get her name out to more people.


Undoubtedly that was in there too. I'd have loved to pick her brain directly on what was goal #1 though. Too bad that's not feasible lol.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alla said:


> Undoubtedly that was in there too. I'd have loved to pick her brain directly on what was goal #1 though. Too bad that's not feasible lol.


Well I mean you can ask. There is a forum on the recallers thing and I'm sure she or an employee browses it to some degree, hahaha.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Well I mean you can ask. There is a forum on the recallers thing and I'm sure she or an employee browses it to some degree, hahaha.


Lol yeah, but the chances of a truthful answer on the goal of the promotion given to a random nobody? It's not even an on-topic question lol. More like, just curiosity of a marketer.

The marketing answer to this question she's already given - to expose the most people and dogs to the core training strategies that would improve their relationship with their pet dog.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Well, she is really slashing prices. The regular program is over 2k and it's being offered for $400soemthing I believe.
> 
> Is there actually a game day video for day 4? I didn't have time to sift through the ad page.


Yeah, she slashed the price on the huge advertisement page on Game Day 4. I don't believe she slashed it since via her emails. That is what I'm referring to. There is a video on the advertisement page. I didn't watch it, though.



CptJack said:


> My problem witty the price is...
> 
> If I am paying even four hundred dollars for something, I do no want to be part of a class that big, with that little eyes on, personalized attention. There is more in play than the content in deciding if it's worthwhile. Not that I can afford it right now, but that's at least in part because I'd rather spend my money on someone local, who knows me, who can give immediate feedback, and to whom my access to isn't crazy limited.
> 
> That isn't criticism of her, just not something I want to spend my money on.


Yep ^^^


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm also starting to wonder if maybe the people who gravitate toward this don't know what in person dog training costs, or what the benefits of it are. As in, they just haven't done it enough to understand the appeal. Certainly people will know at least about her that don't know about some of the other dog training places? 

Ie: They just don't know they can do MONTHS worth of classes for that price, and that most people tend to do better with eyes on and access from the trainer and how great that can be type stuff.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I'm also starting to wonder if maybe the people who gravitate toward this don't know what in person dog training costs, or what the benefits of it are. As in, they just haven't done it enough to understand the appeal. Certainly people will know at least about her that don't know about some of the other dog training places?
> 
> Ie: They just don't know they can do MONTHS worth of classes for that price, and that most people tend to do better with eyes on and access from the trainer and how great that can be type stuff.


That's possible. Or people who don't have access to a good (or any) trainer, especially one who has actually competed in agility.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> That's possible. Or people who don't have access to a good (or any) trainer, especially one who has actually competed in agility.


Yeah. I mean goodness knows I'm limited as heck with in person classes. I can do basic manners, flyball, or agility. That's really kind of it. And if I couldn't move to privates I'd be SOL with agility pretty fast.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Personally, I think there's a Cult of Susan Garrett out there. People with plenty of dog training skills and some success who just love her and everything she does and keep coming back for more. Those are the people willing to pay $2k in the hope that their dogs become as awesome at agility as Susan's dogs are.

I think this promo was to reach more of a pet audience. People who think of their dogs as their kids and have disposable income, but don't run in those agility circles where Garrett is well known already. They won't be willing to pay $2k probably, but the lure of a steep discount is enticing. These are the people who may not be super into agility, but like working with their dogs and like the allure of a dog who is well trained and can go anywhere with ease. Also the people like this who cannot find good local trainers.

Just my guesses.

I'm in the camp of people who really can't stand her. Her stuff is good, and I've watched some of her dvds, but it's like a full time infomercial. And I don't like her cutesy names for everything and how long winded she is. She can take up an hour video to teach you two simple techniques. Like crate games. I taught my puppy to sit in her crate and wait for a release cue in about two days (coming out of her crate 3 times). Watching the Crate Games video was like watching paint dry. All of the talk about different values of treats, and where to place your reward so the dog sat, etc, etc. Just wait until they sit, open the door, close it on them if they try to leave, repeat until they wait there, then release. Do this every time. Done.

Or the collar grab game. She can take a couple pages just to tell you to grab the dog's collar and give them a treat so they learn that collar grabbing = good. My puppy class instructors harp on this same thing every class but they don't drone on about it or give it cute names. It's just a good common sense thing to do with a dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I'm in the camp of people who really can't stand her. Her stuff is good, and I've watched some of her dvds, but it's like a full time infomercial. And I don't like her cutesy names for everything and how long winded she is. She can take up an hour video to teach you two simple techniques. Like crate games. I taught my puppy to sit in her crate and wait for a release cue in about two days (coming out of her crate 3 times). Watching the Crate Games video was like watching paint dry. All of the talk about different values of treats, and where to place your reward so the dog sat, etc, etc. Just wait until they sit, open the door, close it on them if they try to leave, repeat until they wait there, then release. Done.


Honestly, this is me. I can be okay with her and acknowledge she does some things really well, she's a decent trainer, and basically be reasonably objective and fair.

And then I watch her do something - a DVD or a video or something and I'm right back to irritated by her existence. It *isn't* fair to her as a dog trainer, but her pacing, delivery, and if I'm honest her personality is such that I START OUT so annoyed that everything she does gets magnified in my head.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I've also very rarely seen her demonstrate a concept without a border collie who is driven and engaged. Since drive and engagement are kind of a big deal, show me how you would work on that. I get the idea that Puppy Peaks kind of goes into that more, but I haven't seen a DVD about that concept.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I've also very rarely seen her demonstrate a concept without a border collie who is driven and engaged. Since drive and engagement are kind of a big deal, show me how you would work on that. I get the idea that Puppy Peaks kind of goes into that more, but I haven't seen a DVD about that concept.


I've seen her work with terriers! And a cattle dog, once. 

...so yeah, driven and mostly engaged. LOL.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

One thing I really like about Denise Fenzi is that she went from driven engaged hard working dogs bred for IPO, to this little terrier mutt who would rather chase squirrels than do obedience. She admitted that she was at the point in her career that she would be able to learn more and help more people if she had a non-traditional dog who presented more of a challenge. I get wanting to be really good at agility and getting the best BCs you can find, but as an instructor your value to me is higher if you really know how to motivate the average dog, because that's what I have.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I honestly never really did IYC the way she did or did recalls the way she did on these videos. I will say, for me, it was definitely worth the watch. It has changed a mindset for me as a trainer. I really liked crate games too.. minus the long explanation. So. I'm not going to slam on her at all. I don't think she is like the best thing ever and would not pay hundreds of dollars to keep going, but I like her just fine. Don't like all the advertisement crap though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> One thing I really like about Denise Fenzi is that she went from driven engaged hard working dogs bred for IPO, to this little terrier mutt who would rather chase squirrels than do obedience. She admitted that she was at the point in her career that she would be able to learn more and help more people if she had a non-traditional dog who presented more of a challenge. I get wanting to be really good at agility and getting the best BCs you can find, but as an instructor your value to me is higher if you really know how to motivate the average dog, because that's what I have.


The reason I really, and I mean really, like my instructor is she's never owned a purebred dog as far as I can tell. Certainly none of her agility dogs have been purebreds. They have ALL been rescues. As far as I know they're all herding breed mixes, but to a one they've been rescues and mutts - and she's gone national level with them, you know? She's also the person who in real life says frequently 'you work with the dog you have and what that dog gives you'. I've watched her adapt radically for the dog in front of her that she's teaching and it just leaves me with so much respect for her. She's even said 'Garrett is all toys all the time, Nelson says you never use toys. I use what works for the dog".


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

For what it's worth she also used a boxer in one of the recallers videos and a toller mix I think.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> For what it's worth she also used a boxer in one of the recallers videos and a toller mix I think.


It's not just about the breed though, it's more the type of dog. I haven't seen her work with a dog who is "difficult" or not engaged. No matter the breed if the dog already has a really good foundation of engagement and playing with toys, you can do anything with them on a video. But most people do not have super engaged and motivated dogs, at least not when they start out.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Latest spam email is a survey on why you don't want to buy the full course. Have fun everyone!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Latest spam email is a survey on why you don't want to buy the full course. Have fun everyone!


Another marketing best practice.  I filled it out cause from running these things I know every response is worth its weight in gold.
(Although what she really should have done is offered another freebie to those who fill out the survey - like a game 5 - and based on responses there should've been a funnel where a discount is offered if you select the "too expensive option", or a special time extension if you selected the "missed the deadline" option, or an optional calendar reminder for 3 months in the future if you selected "not the right time" option. But hey, you can improve a launch forever, and resources are not unlimited lol.)


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I honestly never really did IYC the way she did or did recalls the way she did on these videos. I will say, for me, it was definitely worth the watch. It has changed a mindset for me as a trainer. I really liked crate games too.. minus the long explanation. So. I'm not going to slam on her at all. I don't think she is like the best thing ever and would not pay hundreds of dollars to keep going, but I like her just fine. Don't like all the advertisement crap though.


Agreed. I don't know if I would subscribe to Recallers even if I had the disposable income right now, but even those four games/videos have given me a ton to think about. Like, I do a lot of reading about behavior and training, but the way she explains things really made it click for me, and given me a lot more tools to put in my toolkit to adapt for other uses. 

Recallers also totally got some of my family/friends who knew nothing about dog training into using reward-based techniques instead of old school punishment ones, and that alone I think is worth it. Not that they were the super harsh punishment types, but my dad who has never trained a dog in his life noticed a difference with his girlfriends dog after only one five minute session. So.. she must be doing something right.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

The biggest things I learned from Freecallers were:
-Have the dog chase you THEN present the reward, so the value of the reward transfers to you. This one really made me notice how much luring is used in every day life.
-Why punishment doesn't work the way we want it to


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

This is sort of silly of me... But this thread specifically came to mind and I dug it up to read my old posts. I remember being confused about the way Garrett was framing leave it. It would have been crystal clear to me today and I wouldn't have asked what I asked. 

How little I knew embarrasses me, but it's nice in a way to look back and see the long road behind. I'd say the same about the road ahead but it's foggier than looking back. I'm at a point where I'm really questioning how I can be a better trainer and am feeling really reflective and inspired from some recent seminars


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I re-read all my posts here.

My training style and understanding of her methods have changed some - ie: I understand what she's doing a bit better.

I'd still rather be drawn and quartered than sit through hours of her presenting anything. I have grown some as a trainer. I have not grown as a person.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

It's really amazing how much knowledge we can gain in just a year or so. I know I can't go back and read old posts. I would probably cringe at some of my mindsets. 

I do follow SG groups for little bits of ideas I can get here and there to this day. But I also follow many different trainers and styles. Still won't pay for any of it at those prices.

I completely agree with previous comments on here that we need more videos of dogs/breeds that really aren't as handler focused or food/toy motivated. I have run into quite a few of these dogs and figuring out what to do with them is always a challenge.. especially if they aren't puppies. 

I did appreciate SG's newest pup's trial videos. I admittedly love watching videos of these big time trainers doing an agility trial and their dogs take off courses or knock bars. I was getting so tired of seeing nothing but these flawless runs. There's always going to be challenges and issues we have to work through. We should Embrace the NQ's!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You know, actually - I have grown as a person.

I have grown to believe that ANYONE who tries to tell me, or believes themselves, that their method will work for Every Situation and Every Dog is someone who is either lying or falls under the category of 'doesn't know what they don't know'. 

I am not talking about 'be kind to your dogs'. I am talking *methods*. I am especially talking about people trying to sell a method, instead of paying for a trainers TIME and, with that, access to a variety of methods, ideas, skills, and their experience. 

And, yeah, the carefully crafted image of never getting it wrong on course or in life, and carefully selecting dogs who fit their skill set, rather than growing their skill set, absolutely does not increase the likelyhood of me seeking them out.


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