# Photos of raw fed or homecooked diet dogs



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

I'd really like to see photos of your raw fed dogs. This is a spin off from Jennifer's post (4dogs3cats) showing her beautiful dogs. Though I do remember she said they were shiny before feeding raw.

Anyway, one of the biggest arguments I have heard against feeding raw is that raw fed dogs look like crap (obviously we can see that doesn't apply to Jennifer's dogs!). Also that the prey model raw diet is the mimimum that a dog needs to survive. That dog food companies give optimal nutritional requirements not minimal. I don't believe it, but I'd like to have something to show people.

When they see my dogs they just say they only look good because they are young. That all the same problems will appear when they are older.

So, I'd love to see photos of your dogs - along with a brief diet explanation, ages of the dogs and how long they've been on raw or homecooked.

Thanks!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I just started a little over a week ago, but Sadie has not had any problems. She has a bit more energy. It hasn't been long enough to notice anything else. I hope she sheds less  She is 6 months old so has not had lot of teeth decay yet, so I am excited to see how clean and healthy her teeth STAY on raw, compared to my neighbor's dogs. 

I have never heard that raw dogs look like crap, I only hear the improvements. On the anti-raw stuff I have seen they mostly talk about bacteria, nutrition. Where did you hear that? Just curious to see the source.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

this is vi. who since getting over the detox phase of a raw diet has been extremely difficult to take good photos of with a flash on because she reflects the light of the flash. These photos illustrate what I'm talking about.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

I've heard that about raw fed dogs looking like crap, from a trainer for one. But what I think he and others have seen are raw fed dogs that either the owner was feeding without doing his/her research and learning to do it correctly, or the dog was either older when the owner started it on raw and was maybe going through a detoxification period, or had other health problems actually unrelated to the raw diet.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

so finally....a fairly decent photo of my two prey model raw diet girls.


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## volleyballgk (Jan 15, 2008)

I feed both of my dogs raw. They are on a prey model diet, getting strickly raw meat, raw bones, and organs. I have noticed that there coats are healthier, their teeth are cleaner, their energy levels and alertness have increased, and their gas and stools are less replusive. 

Payton was fed on kibble for the first 3 months of his life. He has now been on raw for 7 months. I am constantly getting compliments on how soft and silky his coat is. 









Max has been on kibble since I brought him home as a puppy except for a very short time on kibble while he was sick at the vet with parvo(they fed him not me). As soon as I got him home I switched him back over to raw and his overall health, growth, and apperance exploded! I know this was not all raw and some of it was just him getting better, but I firmly believe in my heart that he would not have improved as fast on kibble. When we brought him home from the breeder he was being fed kibble and his gas was horrendous! Almost to the point were you couldn't be in the same room as him. Now on raw his gas doesn't smell at all! Besides just being a handsome boy overall he also gets compliments on his coat and overall appearance.









Lizzy was my first dog I owned on my own and I fed her on kibble the first half of her life. She developed food allergies, was losing her hair and had yeast problems. After much research I switched her over to raw and the improvement was remarkable. All of her issues cleared up and I noticed what a difference it made in her energy levels as well.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

jesirose said:


> I have never heard that raw dogs look like crap, I only hear the improvements. On the anti-raw stuff I have seen they mostly talk about bacteria, nutrition. Where did you hear that? Just curious to see the source.


From just about everyone who says I'm hurting my dogs by giving them raw. There are some from the rescue group I'm affiliated with and some people I meet with other dogs. The worst is my mom. She does the rescue too and she has had many dogs live to a ripe old age. She feeds regular food and says that's why they have lived so long. One of her dogs now (a cocker mix) is about 19.

She thinks I am going to kill my dogs by homecooking and raw feeding. Despite the fact that SHE was known to eat raw hamburger back in the day. GROSS!


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Raw feeding is not for everyone. And I believe that there are a number of quality commercial foods on the market now. However, when I had been struggling for 5+ years with our older dog (now almost 9 years old), tried every kibble on the market, she had allergic, itchy, lick 'til you bleed reactions wtih everything...my last option was raw feeding. 

We now also have her littermate, so I can speak for two dogs going on 9 years old this fall. One we've had since she was 4 months old and she struggled on commercial food, never seemed to thrive. And she always needed a dental every 6 months, including extractions due to horrible dental disease. She is now the picture of health, only sees the vet for annual check ups, hasn't needed a dental cleaning since starting raw, not to mention she hasn't needed any extractions either. Her littermate that we acquired a year ago came to us on premium kibble and was in general good health with the exception of horrible teeth, and many missing. We switched her to raw and she is doing great. Her teeth are clean and her coat has become much thicker.

I believe the connection of bad teeth and commercial kibble diets is due to the amount of carbohydrates in kibble. If it is not protein or fat, then it is carbs...look at labels and figure it out. Most mainstream kibbles are 40-60% carbs. Carbs break down into sugars which feed the bacteria that form the plaque = dental disease. My dogs do not chew and crush bones as they are missing too many teeth. They eat ground whole chickens for one meal each day and muscle meats supplemented with calcium for the other meal. So I believe it is a misconception that clean teeth with raw fed dogs is due to chewing bones. My dogs have gone from horrible mouths on kibble to white teeth and no disease without chewing bones on their raw diet. But I do not give them any grains (carbs) and rarely they get fruit/vegt leftovers containing carbs. 

Our pound pup, now three years old, has been on raw since shortly after we adopted her. Since she was a stray I don't know what she was eating before. But her coat was dry and dull. She would also pass by kibble meals for up to two days, she had no interest in her meals at all. We switched her to raw shortly after adopting her. Now she loves her food and even licks all the other bowls just to be sure she didn't miss anything! Her coat is so shiny it sparkles in the sun. She has always had great teeth and that has stayed the same. 

All of the dogs have great energy. And since I have easy access to lab work I've had their blood and urine checked a few times. Everything is perfectly normal with their kidneys, liver, heart,...

However, I did not jump into raw feeding lightly. I happen to be a biochemist so I actually sat down in the beginning and figured out the major nutrients (protein, fat, carbs, vitamins, minerals) of my average weekly menu. And since my dogs look great, their chemistry is great...I feel I have checked them both inside and out giving me the confidence to continue raw feeding. With that confidence I now am more relaxed about "balance over time." 

But I do believe that there are probably a lot of raw feeders out there with malnourished dogs from not doing any research on the matter before starting the diet. I think it is critical to read the works of the original BARF folks, Pitcairn, and others. There are also some great nutritional websites (vs the anecdotal "I feed raw and this is what I feed") and tons of information on the Internet. 

I learn more and more all the time. And as I know more I do better for my dogs.

(I'll try to get some pictures up soon)


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

briteday, would you be willing to share more info on your weekly menu? I know your pups are little but I bet the info would still be valuable to non-toy owners.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't know if it's the carbs that cause a dog's teeth to decay. Carbs get digested in the stomach and intestines and converted into sugar which also increases the release of insulin. I suppose it's possible but dog's teeth were not designed to crush hard kibble. In my opinion, it is a misconception that hard food cleans teeth. Kibble only cleans the tips of a dog's teeth; the rest of the kibble gets pushed up into the gums. This is what causes the plaque and tartar to develop. That's why it's important for dogs being fed kibble to have their teeth brushed regularly. Dogs fed raw diets don't have teeth problems because the soft food cleans the teeth and doesn't get clogged up in the gums. Raw bones are okay occasionally but also can grind down a dog's teeth. Of course, what dog doesn't love a bone?


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

jesirose said:


> briteday, would you be willing to share more info on your weekly menu? I know your pups are little but I bet the info would still be valuable to non-toy owners.


My dogs get one meal every day that is ground whole chickens with the bones, gizzards, extra gizzards and liver added to make the organ component at least 10% of the total weight being ground. I consider liver especially critical in this meal for vitamins A & D. If you are not feeding enough liver you need to supplement with vitamins.

Next I consider one meal per week of heart meat (any species) critical. Heart is a major source of taurine. Dogs can produce taurine from other building block proteins but cats cannot. http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/home/health.html for more info on taurine in dogs.

And I also feed my cat the same raw diet. Also, if anyone else is feeding raw to cats you still need to supplement with added taurine. Commonly grazed livestock do not have enough taurine for the average cat (60-80 mgs daily for 10 pound cat). The average cat is only going to get about 25 mgs per day from raw meat (unless you are able to find and feed things high in taurine like mice). And taurine is not stored in the body, excess is eliminated. Considering that we now know that cats die from cardiac disease (dialted cardiomyopathy) and develop vision problems (central retinal degeneration resulting in blindness) from taurine deficiency, I believe it is better to be safe than sorry with taurine...I supplement.

The second meal of each day may be a bit different than most other raw feeders. Since two of my dogs are missing several teeth they cannot crush/chew most bones. So I feed muscle meats and supplement with the appropriate amount of calcium (1000 mg of "elemental" calcium per pound of meat...different than the amount of "total" calcium shown on the front label of a bottle from the pharmacy, you have to read the analysis box for the elemental calcium it contains, OR 1/2 tsp of finely ground eggshell per pound of meat).

For the second meal I try to provide as much variety as possible. I don't have access to a co-op, varied livestock, or wild game. So I rely on the grocery store and butchers. But it is important to keep the diet varied so that you get a good range of all amino acids, vitamins, and minerals. My dogs get a rotation of pork, beef, lamb, fish, rabbit, and raely venison or goat. And going with the 10% organ content, I will either have one meal per week of an organ (as long as that particular choice does not cause diarrhea from a whole meal of it) or add 10% by weight of organs to their second meal. I particularly favor liver and kidney since they are higher in vitamins A & D. 

When choosing meat for the dogs I try to find groceries and butchers who offer brands or sources that I trust. I do not buy "enhanced" (with salt water broth) chicken for me or my dogs. Extra salt is never a good thing for any mammal. I look for grass fed meats, organics when I can afford some "soon to be expired" cast offs in the sale bin. Make friends with the butchers in the grocery stores, even if you don't think you can afford that store because they carry higher quality (higher $$$) products. Every store has to move expiring product at a reduced price. Ask when they mark down their meat. I also stop in to the ethnic markets in our city. I find excellent whole fish and mostly organ meat cheaper than regular grocery stores. If you have large dogs ask if your grocery store can order whole chickens or chicken parts by the case for you. But try to rotate the "parts" as thighs and backs by themselves have too much bone, or be sure to add in extra meat with boney parts. And certainly check out any local raw dog food co-ops that service your area. 


Here is a chart that I use for figuring a dog's daily requirements (remember kilograms x 2.2 = pounds, or pounds divided by 2.2 equals kg... as all info is given per kg of dry weight...I use 70% water for all meats)

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/nutri.htm

Then you need to know what is in the meat you are feeding, see this chart for nutrient values, and look below the chart for chicken and you will find value charts for various species of meat (be sure to read at the top of each species chart what the portion size is that the chart refers to):

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/chicken.htm#

So when you put the two charts together you can see if your feeding program meets the minimum requirements and doesn't exceed the few maximum thresholds (some things can't be excreted and will build up to toxic levels).

The only other things I add are a raw egg every few days (egg whites are the perfect protein and the yolk contains wonderful amounts of cholesterol, needed for production of vitamin D and the proper regeneration of cells and nerves) and some fish oil if I haven't been able to feed enough whole fish known to be high in omega 3. (grain fed livestock, and even grass fed on over grazed land contain high levels of omega 6, need to balance with enough omega 3)

As treats my dogs get store bought or home made biscuits, a bit of pulverized fruit or vegetable that may be leftover from humans, some plain organic yogurt or plain canned pumpkin especially if gi distress is seen (diarrhea or constipation), and small chunks of dried out cheese. These are treats and not meant as part of their normal diet.

(Just for anyone who hasn't figured this out yet, I am a medical biochemist so doing the calculations to figure this all out is easy for me, I've tried to make it easy for you too with conversions, calculations, and ratios)


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

briteday said:


> The second meal of each day may be a bit different than most other raw feeders. Since two of my dogs are missing several teeth they cannot crush/chew most bones.


Don't sell your dogs short. Have you actually tried feeding them some bone? I know a good many raw feeders who feed animal parts containing bone with no problem to dogs with as few as 3 or 4 teeth in their head. I'll bet your dogs could too if they were given the chance.



> (Just for anyone who hasn't figured this out yet, I am a medical biochemist so doing the calculations to figure this all out is easy for me, I've tried to make it easy for you too with conversions, calculations, and ratios)


Well, I have always said that feeding dogs is not rocket science but you have taken a very simple process and created something even much more complex than rocket science. I'll bet there is not a rocket scientist in the world who could do what you have done. Do you figure your own diet this close? Do you have children and do you do the same with their diet?

A simple task ... Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Exact amounts just don't matter. Feed some fish occasionally. I have been feeding this way for 6 years and my dogs and cats are all healthy. I have never supplemented anything. The more complex you make it the more likely you are to screw it up, the more likely you are to get discouraged, the more likely you are to get tired of all the trouble. I say K.I.S.S.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Great post  I will check out the charts. Thanks!


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## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

I posted a thread called raw diet photo diary (or something like that) so I will try not to repost same pics but I probably will lol.









Both of my dogs eating wings..yum yum










Sarge using his paws











"Aw mom! Do I have to finish it NOW?"










"I don't care for poultry but if you hold it for me, I might change my mind"



Oh and I wanted to add, after rereading the OP's post, Sargeant (the crazy coated small dog) will never ever have a shiney coat. His fur is so odd and wirey yet soft that it will never be shiney. Hunter has always been shiney until recently (pre raw) so I will see if the raw will bring back his vigor. Sorry, when I forst read it I thought she was asking for pics of dogs eating raw, not their coats while on raw. My bad!!!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Do you figure your own diet this close? Do you have children and do you do the same with their diet?


Also a good point but in this case I wouldn't be surprised if briteday does  But yeah most people don't. However, when it comes to your own diet, if you want to choose to eat junk, it's your choice, no one is making you. Whatever food we feed our pets is what they get. So I think we have to be careful, but that is why I chose raw, because I am in charge of my dog's health.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

briteday said:


> All of the dogs have great energy. And since I have easy access to lab work I've had their blood and urine checked a few times. Everything is perfectly normal with their kidneys, liver, heart,...
> 
> However, I did not jump into raw feeding lightly. I happen to be a biochemist so I actually sat down in the beginning and figured out the major nutrients (protein, fat, carbs, vitamins, minerals) of my average weekly menu. And since my dogs look great, their chemistry is great...I feel I have checked them both inside and out giving me the confidence to continue raw feeding.
> 
> ...


****With that confidence I now am more relaxed about "balance over time." ***** 



RawFedDogs said:


> Don't sell your dogs short. Have you actually tried feeding them some bone?


Yes, I have tried feeding them bones and they do get the occasional chicken wing. But after several times of clearing their throats of unchewed pieces containing large chunks of bone, doggy heimlich, and shaking them upside down to dislodge chunks...I decided that ground would be a better choice with wings as a supervised treat.




RawFedDogs said:


> Well, I have always said that feeding dogs is not rocket science but you have taken a very simple process and created something even much more complex than rocket science. I'll bet there is not a rocket scientist in the world who could do what you have done. Do you figure your own diet this close? Do you have children and do you do the same with their diet?


As a matter of fact we do sit down annually and review any food ruts that we have gotten into so that we maintain a diet with variety and complex nutrients. And we have a goal to add at least two new food products to our diet every month (this month we tried papaya and soy milk) I don't analyze micronutrients anymore, but I did when my daughter was first eating table food. Also, the FDA feels that nutrient values are important enough to list in a black box on all food packages. Just read the labels. Unfortunately meat doesn't come packaged that way so if you want to know you have to find the charts. But now I just gave you the link to the charts, so all is well.

Biochemistry is not rocket science. It is literally the analysis of chemicals in a living being. I am just an ordinary college-educated individual, just happened to choose biochemistry to study. Even cheapo dog food companies have biochemists on staff to analyze their chow. That's how they get the little black box with nutritional analysis printed on the side of their bags. Did you think they just made up that information? Now my neighbor who worked on sidewinder missiles...now you've got a rocket scientist! All of this information came from raw feeding websites. It is available to anyone who wants to take the time. All I did was tell them how to put the pieces together, if they want to.

****With that confidence I now am more relaxed about "balance over time." ***** 

The OP topic is the concern that raw fed dogs may be malnourished. As like most raw feeders it all boils down to variety and following the ratios of meat, bone, organs. But within that rule it is also best to find the most wholesome ingredients that you can afford. Yes, I know, dogs are / were scavengers at one point in their ancestry. But then you might as well feed 'Ol Roy. I think most of us strive to put healthy food in our own body, why would I do any different for my dog? Some of us who are concerned about the generational increases of diet related diseases in humans (diabetes, allergies, immune dysfunction, heart disease, obesity), which happen to be in the same increasing proportions in dogs...watch our intake of fat, portion size, include plenty of fish, and look for wholesome products made without additives and preservatives or any other excesses. I do the same for my dogs.

So the bottom line is...follow well known guidelines by licensed canine nutritionists / vets / those who have done the research before us, follow established ratios, buy the best ingredients that you can afford, and watch your animals for any changes...good or bad.

I don't expect anyone to do all of the calculations that I've done. There are plenty of pre-planned menu suggestions available from reputable resources. I was just curious if the diet I was feeding actually meets the minimum nutritional requirements of a dog. And I happen to own a calculator that I bought while I was in college.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

I still think you are taking a very simple task (feeding a dog) and making it unbearably complex. I agree with you that we should feed the very best quality food we can find and afford. All the ratios, percentages, weights and measures are entirely unnecessary. Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs is all thats necessary.

Bodies of humans or dogs are not so rigid as to require exact measurements of any nutrient. If that were the case we all would have been extinct eons ago. Wild animals don't make these measurements. The greatest majority of humans don't make these measurements.

"When I ran a busy veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health."
Dr. Tom Lonsdale, Work Wonders, Page 25

What Dr. Lonsdale is telling us is that even dogs feed the lowest of prey model raw diet are very healthy. He didn't say "one" or "two" ... he said "many".



> Even cheapo dog food companies have biochemists on staff to analyze their chow. That's how they get the little black box with nutritional analysis printed on the side of their bags. Did you think they just made up that information?


I think the ONLY duty of any biochemists that dog food companies have on staff, if they have any, is to make that little label. I don't think any commercial dog food is formulated for nutrition. It is formulated by accountants for low cost. It is formulated by marketing department to make you think there are actually the nutritious foods in bag that are pictured on the outside. I don't think anyone there has the health of your dog in mind when they formulate these doom nuggets.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Bailey has made the best improvement so far.

Well here are my boys, if they don't look good, than I don't know WHAT I am doing wrong, lol.
Chance- he doesnt like to stand still so this is the best I have









Kody-(Although it looks like I am choking him.. in reality I am not)









Bailey- before raw, heres some pictures from the last year or so
Eh behind Kodys head back there









Probably her chunkiest picture









*more*


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Now- 30 days into raw. She weighs 21.8 pounds, she used to weigh 25.5 pounds.



















And a teeth picture cuz I know everyone wanted to see









And here is Kodys teeth









*one more*


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Ok I lied.. this is the last one..

Chances teeth









And this is a better picture of Chance and how shiny he is.









Kelliope- thank you so much for the compliment. It really does show in my dogs in both their looks and their activity levels lately.

A lot of people talk bad about raw when they simply don't _understand_ it. My brother keeps insisting my dogs are going to get salmonella, when the only cases I can find of salmonella were in tainted dog food. On like 4 seperate occasions.

Bailey has made the biggest improvement thus far. The boys were raised on nutro then switched to canidae pretty early in life, so they have always been on HQ kibble for the most part. Bailey was fed grocery store generic dog food/table scraps/sometimes not even fed for the first year of her life, then she was on science diet from my vets recommendation, switched to IAMS, switched to nutro, and then finally to canidae, and during all of this she already needed to lose weight to begin with. So she has made the biggest improvement but she had the farthest to go as well.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

wolfsnaps said:


> Oh and I wanted to add, after rereading the OP's post, Sargeant (the crazy coated small dog) will never ever have a shiney coat. His fur is so odd and wirey yet soft that it will never be shiney. Hunter has always been shiney until recently (pre raw) so I will see if the raw will bring back his vigor. Sorry, when I forst read it I thought she was asking for pics of dogs eating raw, not their coats while on raw. My bad!!!


No problem! And I understand about the coat on your little dog. My mom has a dog that looks very much like him and his coat doesn't really shine either.

How long have they been on raw and do you feed a prey model diet or other?

Briteday, I really appreciate you knowledge and calculations. It does help me to relax that you have done the same basic analysis as the dog food companies. I see RawFed's point about it being fairly easy to just feed a "natural" diet, but knowing that that diet isn't lacking in anything that would be in dog food (other than the preservatives and superfluous additives) helps me to relax as well.

Jennifer, how long have your dogs been on raw? I am pretty sure you feed the prey model diet, am I correct?

My dogs are still not eating liver. They simply won't touch it. They won't even eat it if it is ground into other foods. It doesn't help that my mom (who was an RN) thinks the dogs should NOT eat liver. She says the liver filters out toxins in the body. She also pointed out that much of the time the stomach and liver is left behind (which disgustingly we have found on hikes) when something eats rodents. Of course, we have no way of knowing what ate the rodent, but there is it's stomach and liver sitting there on the trail. 

How much organ meat (in ounces per week) should my dogs be eating? Also, is there another good organ meat I can try instead of liver?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Here are clickable thumbnail photos from this year. 

Sassy the lab mix in the springtime going for a hike at age 14.5 years. This photo was about one mile out and we were headed home. She is down to about a mile a day now. She is on home cooked food due to kidney insufficiency and is doing great this week. She has been eating home made food for about 18 months. The butt should be white fuzzy down to the back of the knee, that is mostly bone not muscle showing but she can still jump on the bed just fine. And what else are those muscles for?

Maxwell, the spaniel mix, was also fed the home cooked food and was first given some raw bones, then given raw meat early this year and went all raw maybe 4 months ago. He is 8 years old and in good health. The photo is from an agility trial where he was high in trial open. Small trial and he was going for Open Triple Superior so has been in Open for years but still I was happy! Out of 11 runs he qualified in 8, pretty good for us. Got that big title plus a couple of others. NADAC has oodles of titles you can earn! He has gained a lot of weight over the time on home made food but I am thinking most of it is good weight. He sure it trying to convince of it.

You can see the shine in the coats. I fight Maxwell's sticky undercoat that doesn't like to come out, don't see much in the photo. His bottom fringe has gotten so thick I had to cut 2" last week. The butt and tail hair have always grown long and thick but not the body fringe. See his clean ears? Hehe.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

kelliope said:


> Jennifer, how long have your dogs been on raw? I am pretty sure you feed the prey model diet, am I correct?


They have been on raw now for exactly a month. Yeah prey model raw. They get chicken quarters every day, and every day we are adding in like gizzards, hearts, liver, etc. I have been adding in beef heart and calf liver and they seem to enjoy the beef.


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## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

I started feeding raw last winter but its been off and on. Its probably not good that I am not consistant but its better than never. WHen they get raw meals they don't get kibble that day. 

I am starting whole turkeys. I just bought one today and it is defrosting in the fridge. Then I get to have fun cutting it into manageable chunks.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/34868-life-times-kim-ster.html
^ There's my dogs, but as they've only been eating raw for about 1.5 months, I dunno how much that's going to tell you.



RawFedDogs said:


> Well, I have always said that feeding dogs is not rocket science but you have taken a very simple process and created something even much more complex than rocket science. I'll bet there is not a rocket scientist in the world who could do what you have done.


Since I was a rocket scientist for a few years, until I switched jobs this past July, I think I can say with some authority that Briteday did a great job of making that less complex than rocket science 

Following a formula and getting great results is...well, great. Knowing the science certainly doesn't hurt though, and can help you to make better decisions regarding how you fill those bowls, especially if it turns out your dog isn't quite fitting the cookie cutter formula you are using.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Shaina said:


> Following a formula and getting great results is...well, great. Knowing the science certainly doesn't hurt though, and can help you to make better decisions regarding how you fill those bowls, especially if it turns out your dog isn't quite fitting the cookie cutter formula you are using.


Oh, my method is very very far from cookie cutter formula. My method is very flexable and able to handle most any special need an individual dog may need but you don't need to be a nutrition expert.

BTW: I rarely use bowls. I mainly just stand at the kittchen sink and hand out animal parts to my dogs. The cats are a LITTLE different in that I will lay the animal part in their eating place but rarely in a bowl. Each of the cat's eating place must be where the dogs can't reach which isn't easy with Great Danes.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

How about some photos RawFed???

Oh, and thank you for the tip about the liver on the other thread. I always have canned salmon on hand and my dogs love it. I will try that.

BTW, how much liver do I give them in ounces per day or week? Everyone keeps saying a small amount but I don't know what that is! I have a kitchen scale in ounces.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

kelliope said:


> BTW, how much liver do I give them in ounces per day or week?


Somewhere around 5% to 15% of their diet should be organs. Liver is about the only organ I feed. For evey pound of food they eat, they should have about 1 to 2 ounces of liver.

If you feed too much, diarrhea will usually quickly follow. To begin with I'd feed maybe .25 ounces/lb of food fed and work up to 1 to 2 ounces. So you see, it doesn't take much. 

I need to take some pictures. I'll try to get some up soon.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I dont think you can argue with success.... all seven of my dogs have been on raw basically their whole lives .... I think you can show your trainer their pictures because obviously they don't look like "crap" 

Connor started us on raw food 8 years ago.... he has IBD and can't eat dog food... when switched to raw the IBD cleared up in two days 










Kaelyn was switched to raw as soon as she came home at 8 weeks she is now 5 










Emmett was weaned to raw and we use kibble just for training treats..... he is a bit over a year 










Meghan has been on raw from 7 mos of age she is now 8


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Cuinn has been on raw since age 9 weeks.... he is now 7 










Shalva was weaned onto raw and is now age 4 she has never had kibble except for one little foray to Canada where we were camping..... 










Meir was weaned onto raw and is just a baby at 18 mos. 










Janet has been on raw since coming home at 13 weeks


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Some GREAT photos!

Shalva, from what I recall you do feed some veggies, am I correct? What kind of raw diet do you feed - I don't believe you are strictly prey model from what I remember.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

kelliope said:


> Some GREAT photos!
> 
> Shalva, from what I recall you do feed some veggies, am I correct? What kind of raw diet do you feed - I don't believe you are strictly prey model from what I remember.


I dont feed a prey model diet..... 
I feed a "variety is the spice of life diet" 

as my primary meat source I feed chicken (backs and necks) 
but the dogs also get some beef, and fish

they get baked beans they get leftovers from dinner 
they get oatmeal and molasses and applesauce and egg 
they get baked sweet potato and other veggies (I use the dehydrated from honest kitchen) and they get an assortment of other foods .... yogurt, cottage cheese whatever.... 

I don't worry about supplements and I don't worry about calcium phosphorous levels.... I give my dogs a wide variety of foods and it seems to work itself out in the wash.... I feel strongly that if you are giving enough variety of foods then it works itself out and as you can see the dogs are growing well, look healthy and even the three who were born here have grown nice and slowly and are getting their health clearances. I think if we had a balance problem we would be seeing it in the pups born here.... but we are not ..... 

that is just what I do..... I am not dogmatic about what to feed.... if some want to do a prey model diet that is fine I don't agree with the basic premise as I think our dogs are far removed from being wolves but if it works for them and their dogs are doing well then great.... 

I also think that a good kibble is better than a bad raw diet and that people have to make the best decisions they can for their dogs and for themselves..... 

S


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Shalva said:


> I also think that a good kibble is better than a bad raw diet and that people have to make the best decisions they can for their dogs and for themselves.....
> 
> S



Thanks! 

This quote is what scares me. I used to feed a "variety is the spice of life diet" too but then I got scared I wasn't doing it right. My dogs seemed quite healthy, but then who really knows.

What would constitute a bad raw diet to you?


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

kelliope said:


> Thanks!
> 
> This quote is what scares me. I used to feed a "variety is the spice of life diet" too but then I got scared I wasn't doing it right. My dogs seemed quite healthy, but then who really knows.
> 
> What would constitute a bad raw diet to you?



no what a bad raw diet to me is..... throwing down a few necks twice a day without giving it any thought..... or letting meat turn or forgetting to take it out of the freezer.... or anything else like that 

but if you are watching what they are eating and giving them a variety of foods and they are acting energetic and feeling good then that to me is a great diet.... and like your own diet... you may not eat everything on that food pyramid all in one day.... (this is what a kibble does, gives everything in one day theoretically) but at the end of two weeks if yoiu sat down and figured out everything yoiu ate.... you probably come pretty close and that is kinda how I think about it. 

s


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Gotcha. Thanks for that explanation!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Shalva said:


> I am not dogmatic about what to feed.... if some want to do a prey model diet that is fine I don't agree with the basic premise as I think our dogs are far removed from being wolves but if it works for them and their dogs are doing well then great...


I'm curious as I've seen you make this statement before. Other than size and appearance, what do you see as the difference between our dogs and wolves that would cause them to need a different diet?

Studies have shown that are dogs ARE wolves with .02% difference in mDNA. That makes them pretty much the same animal. 100 times closer than we are to chimps. 



> I also think that a good kibble is better than a bad raw diet and that people have to make the best decisions they can for their dogs and for themselves.....


In my mind the thing that makes a raw diet bad would be the addition of a lot of unnecessary fruits and veggies. A few are no big deal but when you feed up to the amount that it would take up valuable stomach space othewise filled by meat, bones, and organs, then it becomes bad.

One more quick question. What nutrients do you think you are giving your dogs by feeding the plant items that are not in meat, bones, and organs? 

I'm not trying to start an argument. I just wonder what the thought processes are of someone who feeds like you do. Don't get me wrong. I don't think you are hurting your dogs by feeding all the items you do. I just think you woudln't know the difference in your dogs if you eliminated all the plant material. It seems to be a lot of trouble for no gain.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> I'm not trying to start an argument. I just wonder what the thought processes are of someone who feeds like you do. Don't get me wrong. I don't think you are hurting your dogs by feeding all the items you do. I just think you woudln't know the difference in your dogs if you eliminated all the plant material. It seems to be a lot of trouble for no gain.



Really thats surprising ..... and I absolutely don't believe it to be sincere.... you have pretty much taken over the raw discussion.... as I said in my post I do not argue with what works for your dogs.... do I think you are a zealot absolutely..... however, whatever works for you works for you..... I have no intentions of defending or justifying what works for my dogs, after 8 years and 3 litters of puppies, I have it pretty much downpat. 

The fact that you feel it was necessary to even comment indicates an unwillingness to recognize that a variety of different types of raw diets work for various people and that in many respects raw diets mean very different things to different people. You seem to think that you have a monopoly on raw feeding and that the prey model is the only way to do it. Some of us are a bit more open minded and do things a bit differently 

it is about time that the others who feed raw successfully were able to discuss what they do without your comments or criticism..... I didn't ask for your input on the diet I feed my dogs. 


The purpose of this thread is to show photos of our raw fed dogs..... 

Thats all I have to say. 
s


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Shalva said:


> Really thats surprising ..... and I absolutely don't believe it to be sincere.... you have pretty much taken over the raw discussion.... as I said in my post I do not argue with what works for your dogs.... do I think you are a zealot absolutely..... however, whatever works for you works for you..... I have no intentions of defending or justifying what works for my dogs, after 8 years and 3 litters of puppies, I have it pretty much downpat.


Well so much for trying to be nice and learn something. I know you have been successful at feeding raw for a while but I think you could drop all the plant based stuff and not be able to tell the difference in your dogs. 



> The fact that you feel it was necessary to even comment indicates an unwillingness to recognize that a variety of different types of raw diets work for various people and that in many respects raw diets mean very different things to different people. You seem to think that you have a monopoly on raw feeding and that the prey model is the only way to do it. Some of us are a bit more open minded and do things a bit differently


Obviously prey model raw is not the only way but it by far the best way. It is the only way that actually has scientific backing. What works for some people and not others has nothing to do with what works for the dogs. People are brought up being told in their formative years that you MUST eat fruits and veggies to be healthy. They can't shake those instructions when they are feeding their dogs. Dogs are entirely seperate species with different nutritional needs than a human. Feeding them like they are little furry humans is not the best way to do it.



> The purpose of this thread is to show photos of our raw fed dogs.....


And I have to admit, yours look pretty dang good.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> What works for some people and not others has nothing to do with what works for the dogs. People are brought up being told in their formative years that you MUST eat fruits and veggies to be healthy. They can't shake those instructions when they are feeding their dogs. Dogs are entirely seperate species with different nutritional needs than a human. Feeding them like they are little furry humans is not the best way to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> And I have to admit, yours look pretty dang good.


This has nothing to do with what people eat.... it has to do with what my dogs do well on... if you think that dogs don't naturally eat veggies and fruits then I suggest you talk to my dogs who delight in eating the wild black raspberries in the woods.... who have eaten all the baby butternut squash off my vines.... who would kill for a cucumber.... A friend of mines dogs have jumped the fence surrounding their apple trees so he can get to the apples and my neighbors dog had what looked like blood in his stool that wasn't blood at all but red raspberries..... not to mention all the grass eating that happens.... and garden thievery.... 

I go with that... obviously I am not feeding them like a human, they don't get breads, they get grains when I forget to take meat out of the freezer....and I don't eat raw meat....

When Billinghurst wrote his first book back when I started feeding raw it gave a 60:40 split of meats to veggies.... was that high ....??? yes it seems like it was ....but that is what all of us were feeding back then.... over time the realization came that they didn't need as much vegetable or plant matter as they were getting..... 

I dont believe I ever actually said what my dogs get for food in what levels or what proportions.... so for you to comment on that doesn't make much sense.... as you really don't know what I feed..... or how I feed it.... how much plant matter they get... or don't get ..... 

Do they NEED it??? well if you are going by just watching what the dogs eat .... then they obviously will choose to eat it on their own... even the wee puppies.... and that tells me that on some level dogs do eat it ..... not just because I have thrown it in their bowl.... they go out of their way to find it.... shoot I didn't even know we had black raspberries until one of the blonde dogs came home with a purple face. 

There is very little research on any raw diet....unless you want to count all the "research" that tells you how terrible it is. For me the true test was weaning the puppies onto raw.... adult dogs can maintain on almost anything.... they can eat junky brands of kibble and still do well as was evidenced by my husbands first two dogs who lived to almost 18 (lab/golden mixes) and ate blue seal feed their whole lives..... but bringing up puppies is a whole other story. Those puppies now have clearances and they have grown into healthy strong dogs... and that is where the actual proof is. 
As far as scientific knowledge you must know that many of us are way ahead of our times.... we have been doing things differently for a long time and its only now that the research is catching up...... so spouting off to me that prey model is the only one that has been scientifically studied doesn't hold alot of weight.... what holds weight is the dogs. That they are healthy and happy and do they nutritionally need everything they get .... probably not.... (grains for example, which like I said I feed when I forget to take meat out of the freezer) but ya know what ..... I don't nutritionally need Egg McMuffin but I like them..... 

I am sorry that I jumped but I am tired of your need to comment and criticize on everything everyone does to feed raw.... even if your response you went on about there are other ways to do it but yours is the best..... again arrogance.... maybe the newbies to raw want your help and assistance.... me an old timer who was feeding raw before it got to be popular.... I was scooping meat before any of the premade diets were thought of.... I was driving down an hour to drop my buckets off every week at a sled dog guys house so he could grind the meat and I could pick it up late after work.... because there weren't alot of options..... well me.... I didn't ask for your comments or critique..... 

What works for you works for you 

What works for us works for us, thanks for the comments on the dogs, they do look good.... even with a little veggie and an occasional egg mcmuffin. 

s


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Now that wasn't so difficult, was it? All I wanted was your thought processes that got you to where you are today. 



Shalva said:


> if you think that dogs don't naturally eat veggies and fruits then I suggest you talk to my dogs who delight in eating the wild black raspberries in the woods....


See? I understand that. I know dogs/wolves would eat berries etc when they are in season. I have never said that feeding veggies were harmful except in great amounts. What I am saying is that biologically, they just are unable to extract nutrients from them. They eat them because they taste good like we eat cake and ice cream for the same reason.



> not to mention all the grass eating that happens....


And we both know that when grass is eaten, it comes out either the mouth or anus looking just as it did when it went in. Completely undigested.



> over time the realization came that they didn't need as much vegetable or plant matter as they were getting.....


And as more time passes we realize then need none at all.



> I dont believe I ever actually said what my dogs get for food in what levels or what proportions.... so for you to comment on that doesn't make much sense.... as you really don't know what I feed..... or how I feed it.... how much plant matter they get... or don't get .....


You are exactly right. All I know is that you listed an awful lot of different veggie things.



> As far as scientific knowledge you must know that many of us are way ahead of our times.... we have been doing things differently for a long time and its only now that the research is catching up...... so spouting off to me that prey model is the only one that has been scientifically studied doesn't hold alot of weight.... what holds weight is the dogs.


I think you misunderstood me. As far as I can think of right now, there have been no studies of prey model raw except to determine that is what wolves eat in the wild and by studying the body of a dog/wolf that they cannot properly digest nor extract nutrients from plant material.



> I am sorry that I jumped but I am tired of your need to comment and criticize on everything everyone does to feed raw....


No need to apologize. You weren't the first nor will you be the last. It doesn't bother me when people question my knowledge. It keeps me on my toes and gets them to thinking.



> even if your response you went on about there are other ways to do it but yours is the best..... again arrogance....


I prefer to call it confidence in my knowledge since I have spent an awful lot of time sifting through good and bad information to arrive at the place I am at today. I know what I know and I can defend my postions against anyone. My information is factual. If I'm not sure about something, I will label it as opinion and as you know, I don't do that often. 

I'm sure we'll chat again. Thanks again for explaining how you arrived at your present feeding practices. Talk to you later.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> No need to apologize. You weren't the first nor will you be the last. It doesn't bother me when people question my knowledge. It keeps me on my toes and gets them to thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See and here again is where your arrogance comes through.... it is not about questioning knowledge it is about your jumping and commenting on and criticizing every raw fed thread even when nobody has asked your opinion.... I am sure you have done your research.... but this thread was about photos... not your comments on what I or anyone else feeds.... the intent was merely that a person had heard that raw fed dogs look like crap.... the intent was to show that they do not.... probably some do but many do not.... 
yet again you jump in and feel the need to tell everyone what they are doing wrong, how they should do it .... when nobody asked for your opinion or your comments. 

its not about knowledge .... its about knowing the time and place.... 

to be honest you do not get me thinking..... you get my blood pressure up.... as you do several of the other raw feeders who wont even comment on this forum any longer because of your inability to restrain yourself. 

S


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Shalva said:


> its not about knowledge .... its about knowing the time and place....
> 
> I think I do see so much misinformation floating around about raw feeding, that I have this need to correct any misinformation anywhere I see it.
> 
> ...


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> when nobody asked for your opinion or your comments.


By posting here, you're asking for everyone's opinion and comments as we have learned several times before  That includes people whose opinion isn't the same as yours. Sounds to me like RawFedDogs has been a lot more civil about it than the people replying to him.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

So just for some clarification to the coward that posted: "oh please, you act like feeding raw is some badge of honor.... after two weeks you aren't seeing any results yet... it takes time... give me a break"

in my rep box. No I didnt act like it is a badge of honor. It has been ONE MONTH and 3 DAYS to be EXACT, And when your beagle goes from 26 pounds to 21.. yeah you seem some results. Oh and being that you typed the exact same way that you do on all your long winded posts... I know exactly who you are.



jesirose said:


> By posting here, you're asking for everyone's opinion and comments as we have learned several times before  That includes people whose opinion isn't the same as yours. Sounds to me like RawFedDogs has been a lot more civil about it than the people replying to him.


Ugh aggreed!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

jesirose said:


> By posting here, you're asking for everyone's opinion and comments as we have learned several times before  That includes people whose opinion isn't the same as yours. Sounds to me like RawFedDogs has been a lot more civil about it than the people replying to him.



No here is thread about pictures... simply about pictures...... 

it is not the RawFedDogs please critique my diet thread..... which seems to be every raw food thread now a days.... 

it is the reason I generally don't participate in raw threads any longer 

but this is about pictures 
s


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

jesirose said:


> By posting here, you're asking for everyone's opinion and comments as we have learned several times before  That includes people whose opinion isn't the same as yours. Sounds to me like RawFedDogs has been a lot more civil about it than the people replying to him.


The point is that this *was* a thread of pictures of dogs that eat a raw diet of some kind. RawFedDogs, in his usual blind zealotry, has managed 8 posts in a mere three pages, not of which has a single dog picture. For that matter, I don't think we've ever seen pics of this guy's dogs...for all we know they could be the mangy suffering things the OP was concerned about in the first place.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Wow... been lurking on this thread... and I cannot believe that most raw threads ALWAYS go to criticizing the way another raw feeder feeds. Dear Lord... Sorry but in my opinion... Shalva's dogs are some of the best damn looking dogs I've EVER seen... and she obviously knows what she is doing with them and knows she is doing best for them. I think everyone has a diff way to feed raw and _I_ think she has the best way.

Oh and BTW, *open sarcasm* I LOVE ALLLL THE PICS ON THIS Raw Fed Picture Thread *close sarcasm*

Cmon ppl cant we just enjoy the beauty and not hijack threads?
Nessa


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Shalva said:


> it is the reason I generally don't participate in raw threads any longer


Shalva, I want to thank you for participating in this thread!  Your thoughts are greatly valued by me and I think your dogs (and cat) look amazing. It also helps to know that you show your dogs and that you have brought up litters using this diet. That speaks volumes to me.

I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts and opinions. I am still struggling a bit in getting the diet right for my dogs and everyone's thoughts are greatly appreciated.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Shaina said:


> The point is that this *was* a thread of pictures of dogs that eat a raw diet of some kind. RawFedDogs, in his usual blind zealotry, has managed 8 posts in a mere three pages, not of which has a single dog picture. For that matter, I don't think we've ever seen pics of this guy's dogs...for all we know they could be the mangy suffering things the OP was concerned about in the first place.



My thoughts exactly. The fact of the matter is many dogs do well on raw, some do best on raw, others fall apart on it. Whenever a dog does poorly on a raw diet, it's stated the owner is doing something wrong, which is bologna. RawFedDogs can disagree w/ that statement until he's blue in the face, I don't care. 

I know a few raw feeders doing this diet for many years and have dogs that look like crap, yet they are constantly spouting the virtues of raw. Are some of them doing it wrong? Probably. But not all. 

I find it interesting that RawFedDogs has contributed ZERO recent pictures of his dogs to this thread. If the diet is as good as he says it is, he should be proud to show them off ...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> My thoughts exactly. The fact of the matter is many dogs do well on raw, some do best on raw, others fall apart on it.


Dogs don't fall apart on the raw diet UNLESS they are fed mostly fruits and veggies and very little meat. Meat, bones, and organs are what their bodies were designed to eat. There is no dog on the face of the earth that is healthier on a diet of processed grains than raw meat, bones, and organs. That would be like saying humans would be healtheir on cereal than whole foods. 



> Whenever a dog does poorly on a raw diet, it's stated the owner is doing something wrong, which is bologna. RawFedDogs can disagree w/ that statement until he's blue in the face, I don't care.


Sometimes dogs can have difficulties adjusting to digesting real food after years of being fed garbage. Some owners have trouble getting the dogs through this adjustment period. This is not the dog's fault. Once they are through the adjustment phase, it's pretty difficult to mess up the diet. Feed the dog mostly meat, bones, and organs and the dog will flourish. Just about the only time I blame owners in in the initial adjustment phase. I really can't blame them much because there isn't a lot of good material written on making the changeover. However most introductiory methods could be improved on.



> I know a few raw feeders doing this diet for many years and have dogs that look like crap, yet they are constantly spouting the virtues of raw. Are some of them doing it wrong? Probably. But not all.


Thats amazing. I don't know one and I know hundreds of raw feediers. Again, after the adjustment phase, its pretty difficult to screw it up. I've got to add that the greatest majority of raw feeders I know feed prey model. I don't know a lot of BARFers or feeders of other versioins of the raw diet. I don't know a bad looking dog on prey model. I do know several prey modelers that whose dogs had problems when they were on BARF. Those problems cleared up when they dropped the fruits and veggies.



> I find it interesting that RawFedDogs has contributed ZERO recent pictures of his dogs to this thread. If the diet is as good as he says it is, he should be proud to show them off ...


Yeah, I don't have any recent pictures. I need to take some and get them up. In the mean time, you can go to my web page and see a few old pictures of Abby. They are 4 or 5 years old but there she is. http://www.skylarzack.com I don't have any pictures of Thor on the page. i really don't have any Thor pictures since he was a puppy.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

I fourth.... or fifth the comment on not wanting to participate in raw discussions any further.... No one wants to post because being methodically picked apart is annoying.... both to be a victim of... *AND to have to read through over and over and over....*

_I get your point already..... _i think we all do. I have alot of your statements memorized at this point.

I feed Kibble...I give raw occasionally. Its what works for me. 


I think the issue isn't as much whats being said, it the WAY its said.....over and over...


Alright....now pick it apart line by line....ok go!




you don't own a digital camera??? A cell phone Camera??? you've got to be joking.


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## irzi (Jan 4, 2008)

RawFedDogs, how can you tell, that researches you have read are right, and those that others have presented are wrong?
who are you to judge? you have written by yourself that you are not an expert. so?

i dont visit this forum a lot. maybe once a day every night to check up what is new. and every day i read the same statements wrote by you
-Dogs are carnivores
-dogs are wolves
- dogs and wolves have the same mDNA
-raw diet will cure this and that
and not that you drive your raw thing constantly! No! It has to be PREY model or else you are giving really hard time to people.

Shalva showed pictures of her dogs shining in health and energy. and you dare to judge her, when all i can see on you website is two obese great danes and one lifeless, colorless collie, some other dogs i cant remember, but neither of them looks in good shape.

i really liked this forum but now i am getting tired of it because of you being unable to accept others oppinions, constantly pushing them down.
and yet after all this time, you havent showed any piece of evidence that would convince us that your way is the right way.

all i can hear from you is brag brag brag "i have switched 100 dogs none of them had problems, i have ben doing this for so long, it is the only natural way, it is the only healthy way " and so on and so on. yeah? where can we see some pictures that would prove how healthy is that? 

you are oh so boring and annoying.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

irzi said:


> RawFedDogs, how can you tell, that researches you have read are right, and those that others have presented are wrong?


Because I have read what most of them have written. I have studied the content and seen which were writing based on facts and which have agendas and which ones make no sense at all. If you study them all with an open mind and use logic and reason, its not real difficult to seperate the real from the not as real.



> who are you to judge? you have written by yourself that you are not an expert. so?


I have written that I am not an expert on DNA. I am an expert on canine nutrition and behavior as well as wolf behavior and nutrition. I also have the ability to think with logic and reason and not let emotion get in the way of my conclusions.



> i dont visit this forum a lot. maybe once a day every night to check up what is new. and every day i read the same statements wrote by you
> -Dogs are carnivores
> -dogs are wolves
> - dogs and wolves have the same mDNA
> ...


Cool, at least you are learning something.



> Shalva showed pictures of her dogs shining in health and energy. and you dare to judge her, when all i can see on you website is two obese great danes and one lifeless, colorless collie, some other dogs i cant remember, but neither of them looks in good shape.


I didn't judge Shalva. I merely suggested how she could improve on what she had. She has great looking dogs. I don't know whose web page you went to but it wasn't mine. There is only one Dane on my page and she is no where near obese. She is over weight now but she is now 8 years old but not in the pictures on my page. THere are no collies on my page but there are two 12 year old Golden Retrievers who have since died. Both had allergies that were treated by a vet for years then specialist for a over a year with no results until i put them on a prey model diet, at which time the allergies disappeared never to return again.



> i really liked this forum but now i am getting tired of it because of you being unable to accept others oppinions, constantly pushing them down.
> and yet after all this time, you havent showed any piece of evidence that would convince us that your way is the right way.


I don't push anyone down. I offer suggestions on how better to feed their dogs. I give factual reasons as to why my way is the best in most every post. No evidence will convince you because you can't admit even to yourself that you aren't feeding your dogs the optimum diet.



> all i can hear from you is brag brag brag "i have switched 100 dogs none of them had problems, i have ben doing this for so long, it is the only natural way, it is the only healthy way " and so on and so on. yeah?


No brag, just fact.



> where can we see some pictures that would prove how healthy is that?


So you aren't able to look at facts and make a determination? The only thing that that you get information from is pictures? Don't you read books with words only? Are the only books you read the ones with pictures in them?



> you are oh so boring and annoying.


You know, If I were you, I'd really be upset at that person who forces you to read my posts. It seems you aren't getting too much out of them and if you are't forced to read them, you should just pass over them.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)




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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

almost 13 years old








which is almost unheard of for a Rottweiler 
















I don't think anyone could argue that any of these dogs coats look dull. They practically glow in the dark. All of them. In my 29 years of owning Rottweilers all but 2 of them lived far past the normal life expectancy of the breed. The ones that did not had been severely abused prior to my taking them on and died due to those injuries.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Very pretty Inga


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Finally some more pics on this pic thread. Love them Inga!
Nessa


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Inga!!!! BEAUTIFUL!!! I'll have to show my mom those photos. Her Rottie isn't looking as good as yours that's for sure!

Just a note: I do appreciate RawFedDogs comments as much as I appreciate everyone's comments. While the thread was certainly about pictures, it was also to discuss diets and results (shown through photos). If RawFed disagrees with anyone else's diet, to me, that's all part of learning.

I hope everyone will continue to discuss the raw and homecooked diets even if others don't agree with a particular diet. I know there are those that don't agree with my diet, but it is what I'm comfortable with right now and in the future I may change to their ideas. But for now it doesn't bother me that there are those that disagree.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

kelliope said:


> Inga!!!! BEAUTIFUL!!! I'll have to show my mom those photos. Her Rottie isn't looking as good as yours that's for sure!
> 
> Just a note: I do appreciate RawFedDogs comments as much as I appreciate everyone's comments. While the thread was certainly about pictures, it was also to discuss diets and results (shown through photos). If RawFed disagrees with anyone else's diet, to me, that's all part of learning.
> 
> I hope everyone will continue to discuss the raw and homecooked diets even if others don't agree with a particular diet. I know there are those that don't agree with my diet, but it is what I'm comfortable with right now and in the future I may change to their ideas. But for now it doesn't bother me that there are those that disagree.


I think if you jump into a thread that is actually discussing the diet then you open yourself up to comments and such.... however, the purpose of THIS thread was not to discuss diets it was to show pictures of the dogs.... and that is the issue. If I involved myself in the other threads then I would expect comments and discussion on how I feed.... but that is why I dont involve myself in those threads.... 

s


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> I think if you jump into a thread that is actually discussing the diet then you open yourself up to comments and such.... however, the purpose of THIS thread was not to discuss diets it was to show pictures of the dogs.... and that is the issue. If I involved myself in the other threads then I would expect comments and discussion on how I feed.... but that is why I dont involve myself in those threads....
> 
> s



LOL! You're telling the OP that what she says the purpose of the thread was is WRONG? She did specifically ask for info on what diets people fed, and IMO that includes discussing them. She's even saying she wants the discussion to continue, and you're telling her this thread isn't for that?

Shalva sometimes you crack me up. 

I may think RFD is a bit wacky myself but I still like to read the different arguments. I haven't yet decided if I am going to include veggies or anything in my pet's diet, for now I just want to get the hang of this part and get the cats to freaking eat it. So for me seeing information on both sides helps. But I don't see any information on what nutrients dogs actually need from veggies - not wolves, dogs. Do you have any info I can read on what nutrition dogs get from the veggies and dairy that isn't in a prey animal? I'd appreciate it.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Can we please refrain from turning this into a raw vs kibble thread? I think if someone wants to hear about the various pros and cons to feeding either (cue RFD quoting me and replying with "there is no pro to feeding kibble" or something to that effect) they can visit this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/34072-who-here-feeds-raw.html

or this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/33228-rank-smelling-stool-premium.html

or this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/32810-raw-honestly.html

or this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/32597-food-maybe-raw-ibs.html

or this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/31044-raw-answer.html

or this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/30876-anyone-else-raw-feed.html

I think we get the idea.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Shalva said:


> I think if you jump into a thread that is actually discussing the diet then you open yourself up to comments and such.... however, the purpose of THIS thread was not to discuss diets it was to show pictures of the dogs.... and that is the issue. If I involved myself in the other threads then I would expect comments and discussion on how I feed.... but that is why I dont involve myself in those threads....
> 
> s


Shalva, I understand it can be annoying to have someone question your tried and true (and obviously very successful!) feeding regime. But I encourage you to continue to post on raw threads about your diet. There needs to be an actual discussion and your diet and the proof of your dog's health is very important to newbies like me. I am still struggling with balance in my dogs' diets and I truly appreciate all the debate.

But if you no longer post in raw threads then how will someone like me be able to glean knowledge from your success?

Anyway, thanks so much for your responses to this (and other) threads. I really do appreciate your experience and knowledge.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

jesirose said:


> But I don't see any information on what nutrients dogs actually need from veggies - not wolves, dogs. Do you have any info I can read on what nutrition dogs get from the veggies and dairy that isn't in a prey animal? I'd appreciate it.


That's a great question.  I have been asking it on a dozen discussion groups for 6 years and have never gotten an answer. The closest I have received is "carbs". But then there is the Merck Veterinary Manual and the Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Nutrition that both say plainly that dogs and cats have no dietary need for carbs. (BTW, Waltham is a dog food company.) There is also a very good white paper on Origen web page, "The Biological Food for Dogs and Cats" that plainly states that neither animal has any need for dietary carbs. http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/documents/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf (Origen is a dog food company also.)

It will be interesting to see if anyone comes up with an answer.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

What about antioxidant properties?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

kelliope said:


> What about antioxidant properties?


Any naturally raised animal has O3s. For example, I feed my dogs fish once a week. Salmon and mackearel are particularly abundant in O3s. Fish oil is heavy in O3's also, particularly salmon oil. 

I feed them venison when I can get it. I usually can find a hundred pounds or two hundred pounds or so of venison each year. Grassfed beef will fill the need as will naturally raised pork. I rarely feed either of those 2 but I can get it if necessary. Sometimes I get some naturally raised whole rabbits. Grassfed lamb and goat are great sources of O3s. 

There is no problem with O6s as they are abundant in all grocery store meat. Grain fed meats are low in O3s and high in O6s.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Interesting paper by Orijen. They did say the diet should be rich in fruit and vegetables - just grain free. 

"Instead of grain, ORIJEN contains
healthful fruits and vegetables that –
along with limited carbohydrate -
supply important vitamins, minerals
and phytochemicals."

and

"Fruits and vegetables supply natural
protector nutrients like B-vitamins,
essential minerals and valuable
enzymes that enhance immunity and
digestive motility."


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Interesting paper by Orijen. They did say the diet should be rich in fruit and vegetables - just grain free.


Cool, I'm glad at lease one person to the time to read the paper.  I don't think Origen is "rich in fruit and vegetables". There are a few, yes. The reason they are there is that they are necessary to stick the stuff together to make kibbles. You can't make kibbles out of meat, bones and organs only. You must have some starchy stuff there to hold it together. 

Some other quotes from the paper:

"The solution is simple – dogs and cats
are best fed an assortment of minimally
processed meat proteins and fats, with
no grains and very few carbohydrates."

"Studies show clearly that both dogs and
cats do best on animal protein and fats
from meat - and the higher the meat
quality, the better the protein and fat is
assimilated."

"Dr. David Kronfeld reports that
carbohydrates are important for dogs in
just two situations: puppies just coming
off the mother’s milk (which is 12%
carbohydrates) and the lactating bitch,
which needs three times the usual
turnover of blood glucose for production
of milk. *He goes on to state that "no
carbohydrates need be provided in the
diet for pups after weaning or adult
dogs, not even for those subjected to
hard work.*" _Emphasis mine_

I don't agree about the lactating moms nor the puppies just coming off milk. I know many breeders feeding a prey model diet that don't feed carbs in these situations and have healthy pups.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read the paper.


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## customdogcards (Aug 25, 2008)

We have a serious problem with ants in our house. Why? Because they're attracted to the "high quality" kibbel we feed our dogs with the composition of the food. If the dog food is attracting ants, to the exclusion of every other item in our cupboards, there's got to be something seriously wrong. I'm really interested in this "raw" diet thread and would like to learn more. I've always been told that feed dogs non-commercial dog food borders on abuse.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

customdogcards said:


> We have a serious problem with ants in our house. Why? Because they're attracted to the "high quality" kibbel we feed our dogs with the composition of the food. If the dog food is attracting ants, to the exclusion of every other item in our cupboards, there's got to be something seriously wrong. I'm really interested in this "raw" diet thread and would like to learn more. I've always been told that feed dogs non-commercial dog food borders on abuse.


Raw meat will also attract ants...


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## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

and BEES! I was outside and the yellowjackets just took over and we had to move! Why not store the kibble in an airtight container like sterilite or something? If you do raw, you would have to clean up afterwards


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> Shalva showed pictures of her dogs shining in health and energy. and you dare to judge her, when all i can see on you website is two obese great danes and one lifeless, colorless collie, some other dogs i cant remember, but neither of them looks in good shape.



Shalva's dogs are probably the BEST looking dogs I've ever seen, coats second to none - kibble fed or raw! IMHO, she has the right idea doing the variety, not just sticking to one set principle and giving them a little of this, little of that. It boggles my mind that RFD can pick apart her feeding plan when he's admitted to me he has ZERO experience with breeding dogs. You get something, the SLIGHTEST thing wrong in a feeding plan for in whelp bitches and things can go wrong in the 1st generation. He's also had no experience with epilepsy yet was adamant I was doing something wrong in that raw in and of itself was a trigger for my epileptic's seizures. You know what an epileptic wolf is? 

A dead wolf. 

So I really don't care about the feeding habits of wolves and I'm more about going with what works for the *dogs* (who are scavengers and who have been living off the cooked scraps of humans for 15,000 years) and is showing in the successive generations, and keeping the dogs in good condition for both work and the show ring. I don't think RFD has had much experience in those arenas, either. 

Pictures are worth a thousand words: www.rawfeddogs.net 

If you look at the older pics in the gallery from 2001, you can actually see that some of the dogs were a bit thin (what kibble were they eating then?) yet they successively look worse as the years pass. The Sharpei type dog is morbidly obese and balding badly. The collies especially have dull & unkempt coats, although part of that is just grooming neglect. But nothing redeemingly nice about the coats. You can see pics of the collie "Sharrah" as a pup from the 2001 pics. In the 2004 pics, she appears to have very real structural issues. Her pasterns especially look bent over. Very poor pigment to the coat, it's grey in areas where it should be black. http://www.rawfeddogs.net/PhotoGalleries/ViewPhoto.php?album=28&pos=28

I had similar problems w/ my black dog's coat turning grey, but RFD denies that is possible on a proper raw diet. The owner of that website feeds prey model raw and is, I believe, or at least used to be one of the moderators on a raw feeding list. 

Still waiting to see RFD's beautiful raw fed dogs


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

wolfsnaps said:


> and BEES! I was outside and the yellowjackets just took over and we had to move! Why not store the kibble in an airtight container like sterilite or something? If you do raw, you would have to clean up afterwards


I feed raw(of course  ) My dogs eat off the floor, rarely from bowls. I never clean the floor, the dogs do.  Sometimes I wipe off the counter. Occasionally I will wash the bowls but not every time they are used. I don't have ants or any other kind of bug. 

I will get yellow jackets on the rare times I feed outside. Outside meals are usually whole rabbits with guts intact or large pieces of deer.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

can som'one please tell me why we are judging a dogs *overall* health on how *shiny* the coat is? You can get a shiny coat many ways... I always hear som' version of.... "insert diet here is sooo awesome...look at my shiny dogs!"

Personally with the exception of Shalvas dogs (which are just radiant and glowing... i think we all can agree) I'd rather see *in person* and put my hands on many actual raw (or whatever diet is being promoted) fed dogs *in person* then judge health

Im sure lots of dogs of *whatever* diet can look pretty or healthy or shiny with the right photo....Just like _we all probably have a photo of our dogs that is less than pretty_( once again shalva, not you lol) its hard to make an acurate judgement from a photo or two.

not saying anyones dogs aren't healthy.....just som'thing i thought about to chew on....


btw i've never met another raw feeder in person and seen their dogs. I'd like to.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> It boggles my mind that RFD can pick apart her feeding plan when he's admitted to me he has ZERO experience with breeding dogs.


You are right, I have no experience with breeding dogs. I have A LOT of experience in the area of canine nutrition and behavior. I have spent hundreds of hours studying both. I didn't "Pick apart" Shalva's diet. I merely pointed out that she was feeding some unnecessary items and making it more complicated than it need to be. The greatest majority of what she feeds is great and I have said so. I just gave her a few tips on how to improve on her near perfection.



> He's also had no experience with epilepsy yet was adamant I was doing something wrong in that raw in and of itself was a trigger for my epileptic's seizures.


I don't remember that. One of my dogs had epiletic seizures the last 6 months of his life. I didn't stop feeding him raw. His seizures were caused by a brain tumor. It also took his sight and hearing before he died.



> So I really don't care about the feeding habits of wolves and I'm more about going with what works for the *dogs*


Well now, you see, you MUST know about the eating habits of wolves in order to determine exactly what your dogs SHOULD be fed.



> (who are scavengers and who have been living off the cooked scraps of humans for 15,000 years)


No one knows that. It is only speculation. Its very possible, even probable in my mind, that dogs never got cooked food until the last 100 or 200 years.



> and is showing in the successive generations, and keeping the dogs in good condition for both work and the show ring. I don't think RFD has had much experience in those arenas, either.


Nope, I don't have any use for show dogs. I greatly admire working dogs. They are the ultimate.



> Pictures are worth a thousand words: www.rawfeddogs.net


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW the mystery is solved. I wondered about a previous post about my poor looking collies and and obese Dane. THAT IS NOT MY WEB PAGE!!!! LOLOLOLOL Those are not my dogs. That page belongs to Kevin. I am not Kevin. My name is Bill. I know Kevin from other discussion lists. I know him like I know some of you. I really like his recipes ... http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes You should take a look at it. It's great.  Anything you don't like about Kevin's dogs, take it up with him.



> I had similar problems w/ my black dog's coat turning grey, but RFD denies that is possible on a proper raw diet.


I certainly don't remember anything like that. There are a lot of statements that are attributed to me that I didn't make. I have a black 8yo Dane and her muzzle is almost white now. She also has white hair scattered over her whole body. I also have a lot of gray in my own hair.  Its a natural part of "maturing" 



> Still waiting to see RFD's beautiful raw fed dogs


Maybe I'll get time to take some fresh pictures in the next few days. Someone will have to tell me how to post them.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

the time? Few days? _You have time to type this all out_... it take me less than five minutes from shooting the photo to posting it here... and im pretty computer illiterate actually.


The proof is in the pudding. We all are looking forward to seeing your dogs and im sure you can be guided through posting pictures. Let us know if you need help.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> can som'one please tell me why we are judging a dogs *overall* health on how *shiny* the coat is? You can get a shiny coat many ways... I always hear som' version of.... "insert diet here is sooo awesome...look at my shiny dogs!"
> 
> Personally with the exception of Shalvas dogs (which are just radiant and glowing... i think we all can agree) I'd rather see *in person* and put my hands on  many actual raw (or whatever diet is being promoted) fed dogs *in person* then judge health
> 
> ...


I'm not judging a dog's overall health by how shiny the coat is. I think I am the person who pointed out on another thread that arsenic was once used to bring to coats back in the day, but I wouldn't recommend it.

That said a shiny coat is one way of judging health, just like shiny hair on a person. Since I don't know any raw feeders personally and I constantly have to fend off people who tell me I'm killing my dogs (when in fact they are healthy and happy) I thought I'd like to see some examples of dogs on a raw or homecooked diet.

I do worry that over the long haul I may not be giving my dogs the best possible diet. Yet my common sense tells me that feeding dogs isn't rocket science and that whole, fresh food simply has to be better than processed kibble.


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

kelliope said:


> I'm not judging a dog's overall health by how shiny the coat is. I think I am the person who pointed out on another thread that arsenic was once used to bring to coats back in the day, but I wouldn't recommend it.
> 
> That said a shiny coat is one way of judging health, just like shiny hair on a person. Since I don't know any raw feeders personally and I constantly have to fend off people who tell me I'm killing my dogs (when in fact they are healthy and happy) I thought I'd like to see some examples of dogs on a raw or homecooked diet.
> 
> I do worry that over the long haul I may not be giving my dogs the best possible diet. Yet my common sense tells me that feeding dogs isn't rocket science and that whole, fresh food simply has to be better than processed kibble.



I hope you didn't think i was speaking to you specifically. It was aimed at the room.

I guess what i'm saying is an animal can have an oily coat, due to genetics, be shiny, but is eating old roy..

I have naturally oily hair... does that make me healthier than som'one with naturally dull hair... of course not.

Emmas coat gets very very very shiny on one type of food. The other dogs on the same food have a nice coat, but not as oily, does that mean they are less healthy?

My cats are on the same food. One cat is practically glowing, the other has a bland coat. Its not the food, It the genetics behind his coat... different breed of cat, different coat.

Wouldn't, in theory.. adding fish oil to a dog fed an otherwise poor diet result in a photograph of a "healthy looking" dog?

who are you talking too that is giving you crap about feeding raw? Why do they even know? I've never had a person ask about what i feed and i find it odd that so many people get grief from others, how are they finding out?


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> I feed raw(of course  ) My dogs eat off the floor, rarely from bowls. I never clean the floor, the dogs do.  Sometimes I wipe off the counter. Occasionally I will wash the bowls but not every time they are used.



That.Is. Yuck.Yuck.Yuck.Yuck.


Carry on.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

digits mama said:


> That.Is. Yuck.Yuck.Yuck.Yuck.


Hehe, The dogs do an excellent of cleaning not only their own bowls but they will go to each other's bowl and clean them too.  They do the same with the part of the floor they eat off of. When a dog finishes a meal on the floor, that is probably the cleanest floor in the house


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> the time? Few days? _You have time to type this all out_


You don't understand. I am retired now. I don't get in a hurry to do anything. I outgrew that stuff a few years ago.  I get to things when I get to them and if its 2 or 3 days down the road then its 2 or 3 days down the road. Might be a week.  I haven't eaten today's lunch yet. I MAY get to that tomorrow.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> You don't understand. I am retired now. I don't get in a hurry to do anything. I outgrew that stuff a few years ago.  I get to things when I get to them and if its 2 or 3 days down the road then its 2 or 3 days down the road. Might be a week.  * I haven't eaten today's lunch yet. * I MAY get to that tomorrow.


LOL

alright then! Next week it is...


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Why do I get the feeling that we will never see these pictures of RFD's dogs?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> Why do I get the feeling that we will never see these pictures of RFD's dogs?


If you are so determined to see pics of my dogs, you can go right now to my web page and see 4 or 5 year old pictures of Abby and my 2 dearly departed goldens, Skylar & Zack. I haven't done anything to the page since they died almost 4 years ago. I just can't bring myself to work on it. I still tear up when I talk about them. We got Thor 3 or 4 months after Skylar died. I haven't put any pictures of him on the page yet. I don't know if I will ever do anything with that page again.

http://www.skylarzack.com/

I may start another page called abbythor.com


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## 2puppimsmom (Mar 16, 2008)

I have fed raw for about 13 years. I started after we had a 5 yr old German Shepherd die of cancer. She had been raised on Iams. I decided to read and research different diets. I came across the BARF diet. I started feeding it. I used to feed a more vegetables. But now I feed the veggies just off and on. But I do feed the other things that is on the original BARF diet. I feed raw milk when I can find it. I feed cottage cheese, other cheese, and yoghurt.I feed some fruits once in awhile. The main diet I feed is the raw meat and bones. I have started lately, grinding the chicken legs and bigger thighs. Last year 2 of our raw fed dogs died. One was 13 yrs old. the other one was 10 yr old. one was a German Shepherd he died naturally. And the 13 yr old was a White GS mix. She was a hybrid. She had wolf or Coyote in her, our vet said. She had to be euthanized because of old age hip displaysia.The two that died last year had real clean teeth ,no bad breath. They never went to have their teeth cleaned. They had shiny, soft fur. They were never sick. We now have a 10 yr old German Shepherd, a 19 mo old German shepherd and a 6 mo old mixed breed that we got from a rescue. They are all on the raw diet. They have clean teeth , no bad breath and soft shiny fur. When we brought the puppy, which was about 5 weeks old, home, I started him on the raw diet right away. I didn't have any problems with it.I think feeding mostly the raw diet, ratherif it is just the meat and bones or the BARF diet they are still the best for dogs. I stopped feeding the small amounts of grain that the original BARF diet had in it. I think grains contribute to diabetes in dogs. I'm sorry, I don't know how to post pictures. So I can't show you our dogs. Our puppy has shiny, soft black fur. Our Shepherds are beautiful. Our 10 yr old is starting to have arthritis in her hip joints. But she has never been sick. Our dogs get only human grade food. I do feed canned Salmon, Mackerel, Tuna and Sardines to my fur kids too.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

2puppimsmom said:


> I'm sorry, I don't know how to post pictures. So I can't show you our dogs. Our puppy has shiny, soft black fur. Our Shepherds are beautiful.


http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/13113-having-trouble-posting-photos.html


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> You can't make kibbles out of meat, bones and organs only. You must have some starchy stuff there to hold it together.


Yep. I think some of the grain free kibbles that are coming out are at least better than the other stuff. I sort of wish Canidae had done their grain-free before, but now Sadie LOVES her raw. She was never excited about any food until she crunched a bone.



Criosphynx said:


> can som'one please tell me why we are judging a dogs *overall* health on how *shiny* the coat is? You can get a shiny coat many ways... I always hear som' version of.... "insert diet here is sooo awesome...look at my shiny dogs!"


Good point, my cat Bear has had the shiniest coat I've ever seen on a cat since he was born. He didn't get raw until 2 weeks ago, and he's still super shiny. It's hard to capture in photos because he is indoor only, but as my husband pointed out, it can't GET any shinier, no matter what diet I use. (It's not oily, it's incredibly soft and shiny). 

As for it turning grey, don't ALL black dogs do that? My neighbor's doxie has gotten more and more grey in his hair, just like my grandpa has. He's 14, fed kibble. (The dog, not my grandpa.) I'd think that was just evidence of the dog's age.

Why not get some photos of these dog's teeth? Isn't that one of the best parts of raw, their teeth?

ETA: Bear also had a reaction to a vaccine that is apparently common in cats, but I had never heard of before he got it. He developed a tumor on the vaccine site. Anyway that is the only time he has ever been sick, had any sort of problem. I didn't choose to feed him or Sadie raw because I think it's some miracle cure-all diet. I do think it's more natural for them and will have more benefits than the kibble. But I would never give Bear another vaccine, no matter what diet he's on. 

Most everyone is going to think the diet they use is best or they wouldn't have chosen it. People argue about what kibble to feed, between Canidae, Orijen, etc. I haven't seen anyone tell them to stop discussing it. Just because you don't like the advice someone gives you doesn't mean you have to get all in a tizzy. If you don't like RFD's comments to you, skip over them and he'll eventually stop responding to you. Didn't we all get that lesson in grade school?


----------



## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

My raw fed pups, i think they look nice and their coats are looking pretty good too.


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> I guess what i'm saying is an animal can have an oily coat, due to genetics, be shiny, but is eating old roy..
> 
> I have naturally oily hair... does that make me healthier than som'one with naturally dull hair... of course not.
> 
> ...



My mom (who is a nurse and does animal rescue) is one of the main ones. She is convinced my dogs will die if I give them any kind of raw bone. It doesn't help that she had two dogs have major issues with supposedly raw bones. One died the other survived a surgery. She also says that she has seen dogs fed raw and they look horrible. She says to take a look at any coyote running around and tell me how good it looks! (which I have to say our poor coyotes look pretty scraggly).

She has had many, many dogs live well past their normal life span and has always fed commercial dog food. So she really believes it is best. I actually believe the reason her dogs live so long has nothing to do with what they are fed. I believe it is lifestyle. They are active, unstressed farm dogs with lots of room to run and virtually none of the stresses suffered by suburban or city dogs.

Also some people in our rescue group. All people who know me or have actually been in my home when I am feeding. It's not as though I run around telling strangers what I feed. (other than here of course!)

As far as oil in the coat, I actually believe a shiny healthy coat has less oil, or at least a different kind of oil. The worst looking (and smelling) dogs I have ever seen have VERY oily coats. To the point that I have to wash my hands immediately after petting them.

SMoore, you dogs look great too. That Saint is a MOOSE! My goodness! Brings back a lot of childhood memories when we used to raise and show Saints. Such fantastic dogs! Whenever we came home, we used to say the dogs were saying "Oh yeah, the napkins are home!"


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

kelliope said:


> My mom (who is a nurse and does animal rescue) is one of the main ones. She is convinced my dogs will die if I give them any kind of raw bone. It doesn't help that she had two dogs have major issues with supposedly raw bones. One died the other survived a surgery. She also says that she has seen dogs fed raw and they look horrible. She says to take a look at any coyote running around and tell me how good it looks! (which I have to say our poor coyotes look pretty scraggly).
> 
> She has had many, many dogs live well past their normal life span and has always fed commercial dog food. So she really believes it is best. I actually believe the reason her dogs live so long has nothing to do with what they are fed. I believe it is lifestyle. They are active, unstressed farm dogs with lots of room to run and virtually none of the stresses suffered by suburban or city dogs.
> 
> ...




ew yes.... no im not talking that kind of oil.... lol

just tell them you switched back to kibble and continue with raw if they are harping on you. Heck, what do they feed??? No diet is without critizism.....


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Well, I still discuss it with my mom because I trust her and she only wants the best for my dogs. 

I actually may be converting her! She has a very elderly dog that has recently gone off her food. She is 19. My mom has tried everything - cooking chicken, all kinds of foods, browning hamburger, etc. The dog won't eat.

Now my mom is going out of town for 2 weeks and I will be watching the farm. I was really worried about the old dog - how was I going to get her to eat? Plus I have the rest of the farm (7 dogs, 2 horses, 1 donkey, 3 goats, loads of chickens all with different housing and requirements, multiple cats with multiple issues, etc.) to worry about. Plus my own animals and husband! Yikes!!! 

Anyway, I convinced her to try raw hamburger (that is what got my dogs converted to raw - they wouldn't touch anything else). Guess what? The dog WOLFED it down! Guess what else? She didn't die, she didn't get the runs, she actually has started feeling better! Kind of funny. It was happy days for my mom who has been just sick about leaving her. Now she can enjoy her trip without all the headache!

So who knows - she may start posting here with questions!


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

kelliope said:


> Well, I still discuss it with my mom because I trust her and she only wants the best for my dogs.
> 
> I actually may be converting her! She has a very elderly dog that has recently gone off her food. She is 19. My mom has tried everything - cooking chicken, all kinds of foods, browning hamburger, etc. The dog won't eat.
> 
> ...




that would be awesome!

what kind of dog does she have that is 19????


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

We think she's maybe a corgi/cocker mix. We got her from the shelter at about 4 weeks old (nice, huh?) so we actually know the age of this one.

She is a total doll. Old now but still has that puppy look.

Here are some pics of when she was a puppy (so small - she is playing with our cocker/poodle mix!).



















I'll take some "now" pics to post later today.

Hey! I hijacked my own thread!!!


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## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

That photo of Luke (saint bernard) was when he had his full winter coat, he's not as fluffy right now! He is a big boy, just about 1.5 years old at 160lbs.








[/IMG]


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I have a feeling if/when my mom finds out, she'll:
1. be shocked and amazed that I now handle raw meat, let alone whole animal carcasses.
2. tell me how unsanitary and wrong it is, and freak out.

(She's a nurse too.)


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

My dad has a friend who has 11 dogs. They are ALL rescues. He says raw is a fad and good commercial kibble is best, so now my dad is believing him and telling me to switch, even though I know what is best for my dogs. I know bailey is doing better on this than she has on any other food. I toss my dogs a carrot here and there, and some yogurt here and there, because I know it doesnt HURT them, and as unnecessary as it is, they enjoy the variety, and it isnt much trouble to toss them a carrot when I am making chicken bags for myself.

Bailey used to shed, a lot. You would scratch her chest and you would be covered in white hair. My BIL wouldnt even scratch her because he hates dog hair on him lol. Now she lays all over him and she doesnt shed as much, (also helps that I bought a lint roller, lol)

Its not a huge difference that I have seen. In fact, the boys look the SAME they did on canidae. Their breath just doesnt smell.

Bailey has made a difference for the better so no matter what anyone else tells me, she is staying put on raw. I'd rather have her live a long life on raw with the chance of getting salmonella, than dying at age 6 from obesity.

Im sorry, but whoever says they can't see any results here is an IDIOT


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> He says raw is a fad and good commercial kibble is best, so now my dad is believing him and telling me to switch, even though I know what is best for my dogs.


Tell Dad, "Dogs have been eating raw meat, bones, and organs for millions of years. They have been eating kibble for around 50. Which is the fad diet?"



> I'd rather have her live a long life on raw with the chance of getting salmonella, than dying at age 6 from obesity.


There is no chance of her getting salmonella. Don't expend energy worrying about that. Just enjoy feeding a proper diet.


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## 2puppimsmom (Mar 16, 2008)

A comparison of how a wild coyote looks, to a pet owned by humans, is silly.The coyote lives a much different life than a pet living in a home. The coyote lives in a much more rugged environment than our pets do. I have lived before where there were wild dogs running with a pack of coyotes. Their coats looked as scraggly as the coyotes. Coyotes have to fight for their food. And sometimes they go hungry for longer periods than our pets.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Better late than never. Here is Thor and Abby.


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## heidiann (Feb 3, 2008)

We've been feeding raw since Dec, 07. Here are Onyx and Topaz from May


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## irzi (Jan 4, 2008)

sorry RFD, you live in denial if you believe that those dogs are perfect weight.
they are fat.
and oh, it is not an opinion. it is a fact.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Hope its ok to still post pics, 5 pages of a lot of other stuff. 

I've been doing raw on and off about 7yrs, some have been fed kibble and rotated or a period of time where they got mostly kibble. 

Here are my crappy looking prey model fed dogs (they get mainly meat, organ and bone)







































irzi said:


> sorry RFD, you live in denial if you believe that those dogs are perfect weight.
> they are fat.
> and oh, it is not an opinion. it is a fact.


Yes that is interesting, most raw fed dogs I know look lean and fit.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Never eats kibble, would never touch that. 









Here is 6yrs old been fed raw most all the time, but some kibble now and then.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)




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## irzi (Jan 4, 2008)

i didnt say for every raw fed dogs on here. i didnt even say raw food isnt appropriate for dogs.
in fact, i have never seen more muscles on a dog that on your "crappy looking raw fed dog"

but those 2 great danes, they are fat. and i dont see a muscle on them.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

irzi said:


> i didnt say for every raw fed dogs on here. i didnt even say raw food isnt appropriate for dogs.
> in fact, i have never seen more muscles on a dog that on your "crappy looking raw fed dog"
> 
> but those 2 great danes, they are fat. and i dont see a muscle on them.


I know you didn't say that  I didn't say you ever said those things. I said "crappy looking" as the OP said people told them raw fed dogs look like crap. Maybe this is not the place for sarcasm.  

Yup they are fat indeed, like I said most raw fed dogs I know are lean and fit. Nice waste line and decent muscle tone. Maybe they are fed a little too much? Maybe don't get much excercise? Maybe they have a health issue that causes weight gain? I don't really know. Can't really say and don't want to assume wrong. My friends male Dane is very large dog and looks really awesome, nice and lean. The build is different on hers though too, not just the fitness.


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## irzi (Jan 4, 2008)

hehe, i just said "crappy looking" because you refered to them as such. if you would use names, i would use them to


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

oh names, didn't think they were important here, but I can do that from top to bottom 
Santana, Nediva, Alchemist, Kodiak, Ashana, Thunder, Samara, Ryu, Nakita, Five, Bouwho she makes you cry when you say her name..lol


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm glad Rawfed shared the photos with us... 

Now most of my thoughts are justified.....

Buddy, if you are going to talk higher than the allmight. Then you should at least make sure you can back it up. 
One, you claim your diet is so great, well those dogs are overweight. 
Two, I have seen better looking coats on dogs fed Dads. 

You smash the food most people feed and talk down to people yet your experience is 6 years of feeding 2 dogs that are far from in the greatest of body condition.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

irzi said:


> sorry RFD, you live in denial if you believe that those dogs are perfect weight.
> they are fat.
> and oh, it is not an opinion. it is a fact.


Did I make a post saying they were perfect weight?


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## irzi (Jan 4, 2008)

no, but you constantly brag that your dogs are in great shape.
owerveight is not a great shape.

they don't really look full of life to me either.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Raw feeding turns dogs into demons:









Raw feeding may be a leading cause of computer additions in dogs:









Raw feeding results in super-sonic bloodthirsty dogs:









Side effect of Raw Feeding:









Disclaimer: Results may vary. Individuals shown are paid actors and not actual size. Use only according to instructions. No responsibility is assumed by the author, publisher or distributor of this information should the information be used in place of common sense.


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## stanley (Jan 21, 2007)

I must admit I'm a bit of a lurker here, I come to soak up all the knowledge but usually keep fairly quiet. I thought I'd post some pictures of my 19 month old Jack Russell Stan. We've been feeding him raw for two months as we'd tried so many foods and he has a very sensitive stomach, nothing suited him. He was a little overweight and needed to get down to 8kilos. I was terrified the first time I gave him a raw meaty bone 








He now weighs 8.3 kilos, has super white teeth, soft fluffy fur and is a lot less hyper (he's a jack russell so that's still pretty hyper!)








The best thing I find about his diet is how excited he is when I put his food down 
It suits us and our circumstances.
Louise and Stan


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

Is it really fair to judge whether or not RFD's dogs are "full of life" from one picture?


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

GroovyGroomer777 said:


> Is it really fair to judge whether or not RFD's dogs are "full of life" from one picture?



In all fairness, it's not. One needs to really get their hands on a dog to determine true body & coat condition - however a picture IS worth a thousand words! I wouldn't say RFD's Danes look bad, but there is nothing special about the coats of most dogs fed long term raw. I fed it for 3yrs straight, and know others IRL who have fed it as long or much, much longer, and grain free raw tends to dull up the coats. The OP's statement was not the first time I'd heard raw fed dogs had mediocre coats. I've heard it for years among circles of dog people who have been around raw feeding for numerous years. Now, this is not to say the dog is unhealthy but grain free raw tends to alter the pigment of certain dogs, especially all black ones. I was getting the reddish brown & even a greyish tint to my black mutt's coat. A few of my blanket back Beagles were getting the reddish tint as well. Their stamina was suffering, and I ws having pups that would not start in the field. The solution to that was to add in grains, then eventually go to a kibble everyone did well on. 

It's not that I'm against raw. I'm not. I actually think it's probably THE BEST supplement to a dog's diet, especially red meats. I still supplement with raw, mainly ground beef, lamb ribs, fatty beef scraps, and very rarely, chicken parts. If I feed it a few days in a row they get raw oats & honey. Veggies. Variety!!! I am a big believer in weaning my pups onto fresh meats (cooked!) in lieu of kibble. But it gets redundant when people tell me my dogs are unhealthy and go on an incessant tangent about why what I'm doing is wrong & what they're doing is right, and their dogs look no better. 

RFD told me in all the years he was helping people's dogs transition to raw (what, on a Yahoo group?) he never saw the reddish tint in the coats - when his own two dogs CLEARLY have it  So I don't put too much stock in what he says. 

Not knocking anyone's raw fed dog here! Including RFD's. Just presenting my own POV, and again, I do believe dogs should have raw red meats in their diet. But some of it is taken to the extreme & that's what I have the problem with.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, I don't know if you can judge based on a picture...

This is Beau on raw:


















This is him now on kibble:



















BUT there are several deceptions here. Not intentional, but you can get a false impression from a picture. What you must be aware of is several factors that could potentially make the results look different. 

First of all, his age has changed by a couple years. His coat now is thicker and fuller just automatically but on the flip side, his color has greyed some on his face. Diet is not going to change the fact that maturity is going to change his look over time. Also, another very important point to make is that I've changed cameras since then. Automatically now his color looks a lot better and brighter on film. Now, I've also sort of deceived you based on grooming. The first picture is all natural, as is the third. The show picture however, is influenced by the extensive grooming done on him. He's clipped, groomed, moisturizer put in the tail, etc for that show pic. He's also on a lot more supplements for his coat than he typically does in addition to being fed raw. He was not groomed for the other pics at all. In fact in the third pic, you'll notice his feet are wet from muddy grass. I can also give off a different impression by adding an action picture. Get that wind going in the hair and he automatically looks more healthy and fit in the last picture, no? Also, just depending on the background color, the more green, the more red he looks and the richer the color.

Now, I'm NOT anti-raw at all (I'm actually working in some raw supplements for Summer right now), just pointing out why I don't think going by pictures is the best way to decide what will work for your dog.


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## Mudra (Nov 1, 2007)

Abel on kibbles (Orijen):









Abel (Orijen feeding in the morning, Raw feeding at night)









Cain on Kibbles (Orijen)









Cain (Orijen feeding in the morning, raw feeding at night)









PS:

They were fat not because they were on kibbles... they were fat because I OVERFED THEM WITH TREATS.. Now things has changed, TREATS means CARROTS stick, once they start to look like Kate Moss I will send them to Canada's Next Top Model Dog edition.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> Did I make a post saying they were perfect weight?


You have given some good info in some of these threads. 

On the other hand I think the point is that if you are going to push something whether it be a product or diet for yourself or for animals you need to have something to show results. Your dogs don't show great results for raw fed dogs, by no means am I downing them or saying they look bad but they don't look great either. If you are going to say what great results raw feeding produces then you need to have dogs which show that. Which means dogs that are in fit shape, bright eyed with healthy coats. Otherwise why would anyone believe what raw feeders say or want to switch if their dog looks just as good or better then a raw fed dog?

I know some better looking dogs who are fed Black Gold which to me is very crappy. ground corn, meat meal or 1st two ingredients then a bunch of other grains. They look pretty good though, healthy and fairly fit. They will probably be switching to raw after seeing what I feed and saying no wonder they look so good then. They decided to switch after seeing my dogs and myself explaining how its done, the benefits, where to get info, ect. 

Some others I've know were fed Diamond which isn't considered a premium dog food either. Here are a couple of their dogs. 









I think they plan to make a switch raw soon though as they've mentioned it to me and I told them they could get some meat from me if they like. Their dogs look fine on kibble IMO. Having raw fed dogs in good shake and looking healthy is what we should want representing for our feeding style. Otherwise people might say the dogs don't look good or in some cases look like crap as the OP has been told.


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## Mudra (Nov 1, 2007)

I think my dogs had better looking coats (shinnier) when they were just on Orijen but they were chunkier and has more fats than muscles. Now that we've been feeding them both kibbles and raw (morning kibbles, night raw), their coat is still shiny but no at much as it used to be, but I can totally tell how much muscle they've gained since. I can see their waist now and I dont have to press really hard on their sides to feel their ribs. I also love the fact that even if we run out of meat on a certain day, we can always feed them kibbles and they will still be just as happy.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> In all fairness, it's not. One needs to really get their hands on a dog to determine true body & coat condition - however a picture IS worth a thousand words! I wouldn't say RFD's Danes look bad, but there is nothing special about the coats of most dogs fed long term raw. I fed it for 3yrs straight, and know others IRL who have fed it as long or much, much longer, and grain free raw tends to dull up the coats. The OP's statement was not the first time I'd heard raw fed dogs had mediocre coats. I've heard it for years among circles of dog people who have been around raw feeding for numerous years. Now, this is not to say the dog is unhealthy but grain free raw tends to alter the pigment of certain dogs, especially all black ones. I was getting the reddish brown & even a greyish tint to my black mutt's coat. A few of my blanket back Beagles were getting the reddish tint as well. Their stamina was suffering, and I ws having pups that would not start in the field. The solution to that was to add in grains, then eventually go to a kibble everyone did well on.
> 
> It's not that I'm against raw. I'm not. I actually think it's probably THE BEST supplement to a dog's diet, especially red meats. I still supplement with raw, mainly ground beef, lamb ribs, fatty beef scraps, and very rarely, chicken parts. If I feed it a few days in a row they get raw oats & honey. Veggies. Variety!!! I am a big believer in weaning my pups onto fresh meats (cooked!) in lieu of kibble. But it gets redundant when people tell me my dogs are unhealthy and go on an incessant tangent about why what I'm doing is wrong & what they're doing is right, and their dogs look no better.
> 
> ...


My dogs coats are not mediocre IMO, most are nice and some are great. Typically shiny and healthy looking, some are pretty soft to the touch, almost velvety soft. It is really hard to catch the shiny look of the coats at times or how good a dogs coat looks in a pic but I certainly wouldn't say mediocre or crappy. While he is 6yrs old some people usually think he's around 3yrs because of the coat condition and tone. He is fed a prey model diet, grain free. 










Maybe what you are saying is true of some dogs but each dog is different. I don't doubt your experience with your own personal dogs but it isn't true of all dogs. Perhaps what RFD said is true about their experience. I can see tint in his dogs coats, but how do we know this has anything to do with feeding raw? Maybe they were dishonest and it does but that would just be an assumption. I thought the dogs were seal or possibly seal/black brindle. A seal dog is going to have red or bown tint no matter what they are fed. 

They are born with the red or brown tones. 









They grow up with it, kibble fed









I have no idea if the tint is their natural color or caused by raw feeding. They didn't post before/after pics to judge from. 

I understand where you are coming from, there are some people who are very rude to those who don't feed raw and say their dogs are unhealthy and even unloved. I don't claim my dogs look better then others unless they do, but my dogs compared to themselves look better on raw vs kibble for those that have been fed the kibble food for periods of time.

Also with the general dulling of the coats after about how long does this usually appear?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> RFD told me in all the years he was helping people's dogs transition to raw (what, on a Yahoo group?)


Nope, I'm not even counting those dogs. The number would be in the 1,000s if i did. The ones I'm counting dogs I've helped in person and some I've helped by email.



> he never saw the reddish tint in the coats - when his own two dogs CLEARLY have it  So I don't put too much stock in what he says.


I guess I'm color blind. I just don't see any red. My dogs look solid black to me except for the white hairs now appearing on Abby.



> But some of it is taken to the extreme & that's what I have the problem with.


Feeding cereal to a dog is not extreme? I don't know what you think people fed dogs 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 1,000 years ago.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Nope, I'm not even counting those dogs. The number would be in the 1,000s if i did. The ones I'm counting dogs I've helped in person and some I've helped by email.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




this is seriously getting *old*. 







I honestly don't see a difference between a kibble dogs and a raw dogs in the photos. 


I think you all have beautiful dogs. Whether that be up to diet or genetics.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Well now that this subject has been extensively discussed, I'll put my 2 cents in...

What about those people who show their dogs and feed Purina One or Purina Pro Plan? I don't know anything about showing but I would assume that part of judging a dog is its coat.

I am not saying that these foods are better or worse, just that I think there is more than diet going on here. It's just like humans, I eat healthy, exercise and take care of my skin but I still have yucky skin. Yet I know people who eat like crap, don't exercise and don't wash their face and have beautiful skin and are skinny as a rail. So what I'm saying is that genetics plays a large role as well. 

Maybe the true answer will be in the long term. It would be interesting to see the kibble-fed dogs and the raw-fed dogs on this forum in their senior years to see if there are any differences in terms of health. Like previously stated, it's difficult to judge a dog's health just by its coat and by a picture.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> I understand where you are coming from, there are some people who are very rude to those who don't feed raw and say their dogs are unhealthy and even unloved. I don't claim my dogs look better then others unless they do, but my dogs compared to themselves look better on raw vs kibble for those that have been fed the kibble food for periods of time.
> 
> Also with the general dulling of the coats after about how long does this usually appear?



Just want to clarify ... from my experience raw fed dogs on a grain free diet can and do have mediocre coats. However, FWIW, I don't think your dawgs are among them!!! lol Maybe it's just a breed thing, but there is a definite difference - a massive difference - with the muscle tone of your APBTs! And I can say that about most of the dogs on this thread. They actually do have great coats, raw is a diet that is working & obviously working very well for them. Then there are other dogs who have a slightly duller coat although they've gained muscle and thickness of the coat, the pigment is not what it was or could be. Not about the greying, but the depth of color.

From my own personal experience, if the coat is in fact going to dull, it usually occurs long term, after the old kibble coat has grown out and the new coat is coming in. I know someone who now has been feeding grain ree raw for 8-9 years to the same dogs and if you see them today, you would NEVER believe they were the dogs in the pics she has of them @ 1yr on kibble and 2-3 yrs after taking them off dog food. The coat is doubly thick, they've filled out (they're very overweight as well, tho) but these were black/white/brown collie mixes that are now grey/white/brown. I know someone else who has BCs on raw, and the dogs coats shine and are very thick. She feeds too much chicken so there is that slight tint of brown on the rear end of one of them, but that's about it. So results definitely vary. In general, the majority of results are seen up front, sometimes drastic, then will slowly fade away with some dogs. I believe it was about 6 months after doing grain free raw that my Shepherd mix's coat turned greyish. We tried salmon oil, flax oil - everything we tried worked for a while then he seemed to develop an allergy to it. 

The raw diet had the most dramatic affect on Thunder. This is him @ 11 months, late Dec. '01, the week we started raw. He'd been on a now out of business kibble called Best In Show ... it was very similar to Innova, ingredient wise. 











This is Thunder in July '04, about a week or two after being taken off raw & going on Canidae. When these pics were taken, there had been signifigant improvements, specifically pigment filling in and hot spots healing up. The marks on his face had been raw the week before:




















And finally, this is the most recent pic I have of Thunder, taken about 2 months ago. He is 7yts old now. Note that he still does get ear infections, but he has been better and in less pain on Purina than he has been in years. His coat has filled out in places it had always been thin, yes, even on raw. It's mainly because of this that I get so mand at RFD insisting people are botching the diet if the dog doesn't do well on it ... and insisting that raw is the only way to go, when it's blatantly obvious the dog is doing well on kibble.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> I guess I'm color blind. I just don't see any red. My dogs look solid black to me except for the white hairs now appearing on Abby.



I could swear I see the slightest brownish/red tint on the withers of the first Dane ... 





> Feeding cereal to a dog is not extreme? I don't know what you think people fed dogs 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 1,000 years ago.



No, I don't believe that feeding grains to dogs is extreme. I have seen their coats improve drastically when healthy grains such as oatmeal are added to a raw or cooked diet. Dogs have not been eating kibble for 50yrs - more like at least 120+ yrs. If you can find vintage dog books with adverts in the back, you will see this. In the Beagle Anthology, there are 3-4 different types of "dry foods" and they are NOT Spratt's cakes. They are tailored for pups, lactating bitches, hunting dogs, old dogs, etc. One gets the impression that these diets had been around for some time before those adverts from the 1880s when reading them. I also do not know any old timer who ever fed raw meat to their dogs. It was always cooked leftover scraps, and you can bet the dogs were not even getting the lion's share of meat. If you believe in evolution, I don't know how you can dismiss the concept of adaptation. If a species cannot adapt and derive nutrition from grains being fed to it, they will die out promptly. Not thrive alongside humanity for thousands of years. Dogs are not wolves. They are extremely similar to wolves, but not identical. They veered off on another evolutionary path, and as such, nutritional requirements have been somewhat altered. Dogs are NOT obligate carnivores, this has been scientifically proven - so I have no desire to feed mine in such a way.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I have to start by saying I loved the pictures of ALL the dogs, they are all beautiful--raw kisses to them all!! Here are my raw babies


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> No, I don't believe that feeding grains to dogs is extreme. I have seen their coats improve drastically when healthy grains such as oatmeal are added to a raw or cooked diet.


I have seen coats improve drastically when fat or fish oil was added to the diet. Much more appropriate foods, wouldn't you say?



> Dogs have not been eating kibble for 50yrs - more like at least 120+ yrs.


I'm not arguing what your books say but I will say it waa a very rare dog who ate kibble in those days. I remember that the first time I fed a dog kibble was in the early to mid 1970's because I had ONE friend who fed kibble and he talked me into it because of cost and convenience. Most everyone in those days fed table scraps and maybe a can or two a week of dog food. We also thought we were being so good in giving our dog left over cooked T-bones and any other cooked bones (except chicken). We didn't know any better in those days.



> I also do not know any old timer who ever fed raw meat to their dogs. It was always cooked leftover scraps, and you can bet the dogs were not even getting the lion's share of meat. If you believe in evolution, I don't know how you can dismiss the concept of adaptation.


When dogs develop flat molars, jaws with a side to side movement, and longer intestines they they would have adapeted to eating grains. Until that happens they haven't. You can't create an omnivore by forcing a carnivore to eat omnivore food. Forcing a cow to eat meat wouldn't make her an omnivore. She would still have the teeth, jaw, stomach(s), and intestines of an herbivore even if you did it for hundreds of years.



> Dogs are not wolves.


The scientists who decide those things disagree with you.



> They are extremely similar to wolves, but not identical. They veered off on another evolutionary path, and as such, nutritional requirements have been somewhat altered.


What physically about a dog has changed to alter any nutritional requirements?



> Dogs are NOT obligate carnivores, this has been scientifically proven - so I have no desire to feed mine in such a way.


The only difference between an "obligate" carnivore and a carnivore is that an obligate carnivore can not produce taurine internally. Nothing else. A cat is an obligate carnivore ... explain to me why the pet food companies make grain based kibbles for cats?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> explain to me why the pet food companies make grain based kibbles for cats?


'Cuz it's cheaper?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> this is seriously getting *old*.
> 
> I honestly don't see a difference between a kibble dogs and a raw dogs in the photos.
> 
> ...


I think that is the point, raw fed dogs look just as good as those fed kibble. The OP had been told they look like crap on raw and was asking for pics to see for themsevles I think. 

To me it is about my own dogs, how they do better on one vs another. Some I don't know as they haven't eaten kibble but some I certainly do know. 

I can also see the difference with Ryu who's eaten raw pretty much all her life and her sister who is kibble fed. I'm not sure how well a pic could really show it but seeing them in person and touching them would. Ryu has a nice uniform coat, velvetly soft to the touch, and looks very good to me. Her sister has a little bit of a sparser coat IMO, it is not thinning, no significant hair loss it just looks different not as nice and smooth looking, it has a courser texter to it as well. 



flipgirl said:


> Well now that this subject has been extensively discussed, I'll put my 2 cents in...
> 
> What about those people who show their dogs and feed Purina One or Purina Pro Plan? I don't know anything about showing but I would assume that part of judging a dog is its coat.
> 
> ...


Yes the coat is part of it, general appearance anyway. 

Genetics play a role, but I think that is why it is good to compare your own dog at different times and see how your own dog does/looks on certain foods. Not compare your dog to everyone else's dog. You have a good points with the genes. 

What do you consider senior? 

Health just like appearance can be genetic. You can feed a dog predisposed to an illness the best food out there, do everything right by the dog and they still get ill at 8yrs. You can have a dog with good genetic health and feed them not so great food and have a dog which lives into very old age with little or no problems. Although it is an interesting idea, it would be the "test of time". Perhaps I will see with my raw fed dogs vs their kibble fed littermates. 

*Urbanbeagles* First thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. It is also nice to see another Thunder. 

I think maybe certain breeds fair better then others or certain individuals regardless of breed. 

I understand what you say on the pigment or coat, what do you think this is due to? What is it about grains that is adding some value which helps the dogs coat/pigment? 

So you'd 2-3yrs typically the coat will dull if I'm reading that correct. I'm wondering again what would cause this and benefits the grains are offering. Mine seem to be thriving without them as I'm sure others. The black coat has turned gray? Is this caused by some sort of deficiency? 

I've seen variance in how a raw fed dog looks, just the same as with kibble, there is different ways to feed raw. I've certainly seen some dogs that weren't the best looking and a few specific ones come to mind who lack real definition and tone (they are on a barf diet with lots of veggies and fruits).

So your dog had actual hot spots on the face and skin/coat problems from raw diet? Did you try to do a raw diet that included grains? Just curious since it is the grain free that you've seen causing problems. 


I can see why you're upset. I saw below where they said what should have been been added when you already mentioned that being tried. Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean it was done wrong. If they did it by the book the only other way to go about it would be to start experimenting with what works. There is someone doing that with their dog who actually doesn't get that much meat because they have problems/allergy to several meat sources. 

You're right about dogs not eating raw before too. Many were feed meat that was cooked. Some were fed raw and some kibble back then. A lot were fed cooked foods. Some older people even today still cling to the idea that they must cook meat/bones for their dogs. Even chicken bones which IMO could be deadly. 

I'm not sure how anyone can say they haven't changed for thousands of years either. They have a weaker stomach acid then wolves but I'm pretty sure when they were first domesticated they had the same levels.

I'd really like to see more research into dogs and nutrition. It'd be reports and studies I'd be very interested in reading. 

There was something else I forgot to ask about, you said....


UrbanBeagles said:


> Their stamina was suffering, and I ws having pups that would not start in the field. The solution to that was to add in grains, then eventually go to a kibble everyone did well on.


Again this is with my dogs and obviously not everyone has had the same experience as me, but my dogs are far from lacking stamina. Some I'd say are better now then before, others have always been on raw so I don't have much to compare it to. If I could find someone who could tire a few of mine out they'd be a life saver. They seem to have good energy levels and edurance. Some could use a bit more wind which takes building up anyway, diet isn't going to be the end all beat all no matter what diet it is.

So I guess I'd like to know exactly what you mean by stamina. It seems obvious that you actually hunt and work your dogs, were they just tiring out quicker on out working? Do you think it is the carbs from gains needed. I've seen mixed views on this from legit sources.

I'm glad you shared your experience! My dogs have done great on raw and I know many others who have. I hear a lot of how well its worked but not a lot of people really talk about if its not worked for them or problems they ran into.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

My older SP had horrible, horrible ear infections--when I switched him to the raw/grain free diet--his ear infections cleared up and he hasn't had one since---which is amazing and has saved me much time and money--and Riley less/no pain or discomfort since so my decision to feed raw/grain free was for health reasons, not asthetics


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## allison (Jun 26, 2008)

Just as a side note and totally off topic... 4dogs3cats...I love that you get to have grass in your "cement prison" as we call our yard lol... our community is desert landscaping only! 

By the way... your dog's teeth are amazing!!!! I love the idea of raw food, but as a vegetarian myself, I just can't do it... I've tried and the closest thing I can do is cut up cooked chicken. Even looking at the pics kinda made me cringe. Maybe one day I can train my hubby to do it! LOL  

To all: Keep on feeding raw, they all look beautiful!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

allison said:


> By the way... your dog's teeth are amazing!!!! I love the idea of raw food, but as a vegetarian myself, I just can't do it... I've tried and the closest thing I can do is cut up cooked chicken.


Hehe, I'm not fully vegetarian (yet), but I don't eat meat at home because I really can't stand to touch it. But I do give my dogs chicken quarters once a week for their teeth. I just slip a baggie over my hand, pull the chicken out of the bag, and throw it in the yard......and put the extras in a gallon baggie for next time. It's better than cutting up meat, I can't stand to do that.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> *Urbanbeagles* First thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. It is also nice to see another Thunder.
> 
> I think maybe certain breeds fair better then others or certain individuals regardless of breed.
> 
> ...



I definitely think you're onto something about breed predispositions - and while this may sound odd, another raw feeder told me that in his research he heard that neutered dogs did not do as well on raw as intact ones. That's an interesting theory, because you do have to take into consideration that hormones play a role in coat developlent. I don't know if that was Thunder's problem, but he was neutered too early, and he did have pneumonia when we got him ... so he had a compromised immune system from the get go. 

From my own research, I've found that the spectrum of B vitamins, in particular B5 & B9 (folic acid) are helpful for skin and coat. It could very well be that certain dogs or breeds have higher requirements for B vitamins. While meats do contain the B vitamins, especially liver, it's just in much more concentrated quantities in whole grains. 




> So your dog had actual hot spots on the face and skin/coat problems from raw diet? Did you try to do a raw diet that included grains? Just curious since it is the grain free that you've seen causing problems.



Hot spots, ear infections, eye infections. I remember one time after I'd been feeding kibble for a few months, I decided to try supplementing with raw. I gave Thunder ONE meal of raw ground beef and it brought on a horrid ear and eye infection practically overnight. I've never seen the eyes so bad - they were completely crusted over! That, I think, may have had something to do with the bacteria in the meat, which I agree should not cause problems for normal dogs. But this dog has a weak immune system as it is, so he just may not be able to deal with anything uncooked. The hot spots were definitely from an vitamin imbalance, and probably an immune related allergy as well. But he has not had any more hot spots since going off raw. So I know it's not just the allergy problem, but an underlying imbalance.




> So I guess I'd like to know exactly what you mean by stamina. It seems obvious that you actually hunt and work your dogs, were they just tiring out quicker on out working? Do you think it is the carbs from gains needed. I've seen mixed views on this from legit sources.



Oh, sorry! I didn't really make that too clear ... I was referring to the Beagles mainly, in regards to their stamina in hunting and a problem with starting young hounds. We will run them for 4-5hrs at a time. It's not chasing bunnies the entire time they're out, they must work a check where they will inevitably loose the scent and also work the line (of scent). It's mentally exhausting moreso than physically exhausting, and they've got to keep at it, over and over. I think it may have been partially caused by a blood sugar problem, but again, no proof, just educated guesses. They appeared mentally tired, and pups who were being started just never showed as much interest as they should have. The best way to describe it is that they were just burnt out, they ran out of steam. Physically, they were in good shape, but mental fatigue did sometimes become a problem. Once we introduced grains, there was a marked difference in their ability to properly hunt and stay at it. This did improve even moreso on a good kibble, but I don't necessarily think it was the kibble doing it, rather the gradual balancing of the diet. I have been running this particular bloodline for years and never had a problem with quitting or any sort of mental fatigue. But I do know rabbit hunters feeding generic feeds that run $10 for 55lbs, and the hounds will have similar problems with stamina and ability to efficiently hunt. It's obviously a deficiency in those cases, so I think deficiency could explain the problems I was having. And Beagles are a breed that have always been known to be a poor man's hunting dog due to their compact size. They have traditionally been fed high volumes of grains either in commercial feed or home made feeds. So that they might require more of the nutrients found in grains is a possibility. Those were my experiences and I realize some dogs may have no need for grains at all if their diet is well balanced. But just my 2 cents.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

> Yes the coat is part of it, general appearance anyway.
> 
> Genetics play a role, but I think that is why it is good to compare your own dog at different times and see how your own dog does/looks on certain foods. Not compare your dog to everyone else's dog. You have a good points with the genes.
> 
> ...


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Willowy said:


> Hehe, I'm not fully vegetarian (yet), but I don't eat meat at home because I really can't stand to touch it. But I do give my dogs chicken quarters once a week for their teeth. I just slip a baggie over my hand, pull the chicken out of the bag, and throw it in the yard......and put the extras in a gallon baggie for next time. It's better than cutting up meat, I can't stand to do that.


I have to laugh because I feel the same way about fish--I can't touch it either and I can't even do it with a baggy over my hand or a glove on--lolol (same with worms too--so when I go fishing with my husband, which I do, he spends most of his time baiting my hook and then taking the fish off it)


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## lizalots (Aug 29, 2008)

So, do you suspect that feeding raw part time has the same health benefits.. such at teeth and fur.. as maybe feeding raw full time?

I would like to have some of the benefits, but I, too, am a vegetarian and prefer not to buy too much meat, if I could. But I would also like to have some of the health benefits of raw.

I don't think that kibble is wonderful for their teeth. Could part time raw help combat tartar?


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## CinnamintStick (Jul 25, 2008)

lizalots said:


> So, do you suspect that feeding raw part time has the same health benefits.. such at teeth and fur.. as maybe feeding raw full time?
> 
> I would like to have some of the benefits, but I, too, am a vegetarian and prefer not to buy too much meat, if I could. But I would also like to have some of the health benefits of raw.
> 
> I don't think that kibble is wonderful for their teeth. Could part time raw help combat tartar?


I don't feed raw but I did give my 12 year old English Setter one raw marrow bone and one rib bone over a two week time period. He was not much intested in it until my other dogs chewed all the meat off. One night he really chewed alot on the rib bone. I woke up to him splintering the bone in tiny peices so I took it away from him. The next day I noticed he did not have any tartar on his teeth. He was due for a dental too. I do think you can get the benifits for the teeth without feeding raw if you just give them a bone when needed.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

lizalots said:


> I don't think that kibble is wonderful for their teeth. Could part time raw help combat tartar?


I know that several kibble feeders do give their dogs raw bones to chew on once or twice a week to help clean their teeth.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> I know that several kibble feeders do give their dogs raw bones to chew on once or twice a week to help clean their teeth.


Guilty as charged!


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## lizalots (Aug 29, 2008)

Okay, please excuse me, but I've been a vegetarian all of my adult life so anything to do with meat I am quite unfamiliar with. Where can you just get a raw bone from?

Like, if I walked into Safeway/grocery store, can I buy one? What would I buy? If so, what is it that I buy? Or is it something that they throw away and I could ask to have?

Thank you for your information!!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I buy the beef ribs as a small slab from the supermarket. I cut them apart and take off the little wiggly bone at the thicker end as it would be swallowed whole and cause trouble. My dogs chew off all the meat, fat and tissue and then I throw the bone away.

If both my dogs could eat bone [older one cannot eat bone as she must restrict phosphorus] I would buy pork spareribs instead. Those can be eaten bone and all.

My raw fed dog gets mostly chicken for his bone needs but pork ribs last a lot longer so ought to be better for tooth cleaning. It is important to provide bones large enough that the dog doesn't just swallow it whole. Don't suppose that would help much with tooth cleaning!

Don't buy the large soup bones, the marrow bones, femurs that type of bone. They are very dense and dogs can damage teeth chewing on them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

lizalots said:


> Like, if I walked into Safeway/grocery store, can I buy one? What would I buy?


Chicken leg quarters (thigh with some back attached) or beef ribs. Beef ribs are kind of fatty, so your dogs shouldn't have them too often. And they get your deck all greasy  . Chicken quarters are cheaper, but some dogs are picky about poultry.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I feed chicken as food but as occasional teeth cleaners I wouldn't use them. Dogs get them down in no time!


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

allison said:


> Just as a side note and totally off topic... 4dogs3cats...I love that you get to have grass in your "cement prison" as we call our yard lol... our community is desert landscaping only!
> 
> By the way... your dog's teeth are amazing!!!! I love the idea of raw food, but as a vegetarian myself, I just can't do it... I've tried and the closest thing I can do is cut up cooked chicken. Even looking at the pics kinda made me cringe. Maybe one day I can train my hubby to do it! LOL
> 
> To all: Keep on feeding raw, they all look beautiful!


Allison, thank you! It was SO hard to get grass to grow, very patchy, but then my brother put sod down in his front yard and I bought his leftovers. The dogs love it, and speaking of raw, lol.. they LOVE to lay out in the grass and chew on their bones. Before their meat would get all nasty and dirty.

Baileys teeth are FAR from amazing. It's been a big difference right away.. but to get them to where I want them will take a LOT more time IMO. It works out easy for me, I get the meat cheap, and Bailey needed a change. She is MUCh more playful now that she is 5 pounds (and counting) lighter. I don't do it for the fad.. I don't do it because I believe it's the ONLY thing a dog should be eating. In fact- I don't understand it enough myself to advocate it. I do it because its what I want for MY dogs. My parents just got a puppy and shes on kibble, a good kibble, but kibble nonetheless and I think they are JUST as good to her. It's just my personal preference.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Hello....

I am new here.....

I switched my two dogs from Canidae (then Innova very briefly while researching raw) after Canidae changed their formula and started outsourcing to Diamond. 

I have long had interest in raw diets and have friends that feed it and their dogs do very well. So after being tired of worrying about the quality of even the best brands of dog food, I made the switch. My dogs have been on it for about six weeks. Have I seen a huge difference. At a glance no. My dogs looked great anyway. But at a closer look, yes I see a difference. My dogs are physically stronger, seem to be getting faster, and more athletic. The muscle tone is amazing. 

This is the diet I am using. 
For meat I am feeding raw chicken parts. Backs, necks, wings, leg quarters, gizzards and hearts. I am also feeding some turkey necks, and a little lamb and beef. Chunked up. 

3 packages of the pre washed collards at Publix
2 Zucini squashes
a package of mixed broccoli and cauliflower

2 apples cores and seeds removed. 
4 sweet potatoes
two big handfuls of green beans
1.5 cups of water
1/3 cup safflower oil
1/3 cup of ground flax seed
1.44 pounds of beef liver 

I upped the water a bit in this mix.
I also dropped the Vitamin C Crystals. Between the Collards, green beans and with the addition of the Cauliflower, I think I have a very good level of vitamin C in the natural state. Cauliflower is very high in vitamin C. The plus side is that none of my vitamin c sources are in the form of citric acid. Which can be hard on tooth enamel.
I cut out the fish oils and especially cod liver oil. The Beef liver is providing very adequate amounts of Vitamin D. I do not want to over do vitamin D. 

I am covering the other omega 6 needs by giving the dogs canned sardines in spring water. Brunswick makes a high quality product for human consumption. The dogs split a can every other day.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I think I have a very good level of vitamin C in the natural state.


You are going to a lot of vitamin C trouble for nothing.  Dogs don't need Vit C in their diet at all. They make all they need in their liver. Humans and hamsters are the only mammals that don't have the ability to create Vit C internally. If you feed them Vit C in the diet, it gets excreeded almost immediately.



> I am covering the other omega 6 needs by giving the dogs canned sardines in spring water.


There are plenty of O6s in the meat you are feeding. I think it's O3s you need to concentrate on and those are in the sardines.

I also think you are going to a lot of trouble feeding all those veggies. Other than possibly apples there are none there that a dog would eat in the wild.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Hello....
> 
> I am new here.....
> 
> ...



Your diet sounds more similar to mine..... Raw Fed Dogs criticizes everyone.... he thinks he is the self appointed expert.... to bad others don't feel that way..... 

in either case your dog looks great.... and is quite handsome.... 

as for veggies.... my dogs have just ravaged my garden .... eating several large butternut squash, all of my cucumbers.... tomato's .... etc...... 

I guess they liked them..... and just the other day on the breed specific list there was a discussion of dogs raiding gardens.... 

so much for not liking or needing veggies..... 

welcome to the board.... 
lovely dog 
s


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shalva said:


> Your diet sounds more similar to mine..... Raw Fed Dogs criticizes everyone.... he thinks he is the self appointed expert.... to bad others don't feel that way.....
> 
> in either case your dog looks great.... and is quite handsome....
> 
> ...


Thank you for the complement on Merlin. I am quite smitten with him. He is doing well in conformation and will begin herding trials in the spring. But most importantly he is a dang nice dog and my buddy.

When I started thinking about feeding raw, I did a lot of research but also drew on my own experience with animals. I come from a farming and ranching background. When I have seen livestocked killed by feral dogs or coyotes, the stomachs are often eaten. 
I also know that coyotes especially will target crops at certain times of the year. They will eat ctirus, melons, beans, eggplant, etc.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

My dogs go nuts for carrot sticks.

And when I took Bailey to an outdoor resturant last fall, she did every trick I asked her to for people for... get this..... CABBAGE!

The little cabbage squiggles in your salad. I hate them. Bailey loves them.

I dont care if she needs them or not, I eat plenty of things I dont need. I think I would get bored eating JUST what I need to survive. A little variety never hurt nobody


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> My dogs go nuts for carrot sticks.
> 
> And when I took Bailey to an outdoor resturant last fall, she did every trick I asked her to for people for... get this..... CABBAGE!
> 
> ...


I was given and old bag of this stuff and i dumped it out in the grass for the chickens to eat.

I couldn't keep Tippy away from it. I think she ate more than the birds did. And when she was full, she carried around the bigger pieces like toys.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Well I usually raid my candy jar which is full of dark chocolate Hershey's kisses - doesn't mean I need them or that they are good for me. Kiri ate two chocolate chip cookies and those are certainly not good for her. I'm not saying that veggies or fruit or whatever are bad for dogs, I don't know enough to say. However, I don't know if you can determine that a dog will eat something because it needs it or because it's available.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I don't know why a majority of people think that feeding raw is "cheaper" than kibble--it shouldn't be "cheaper" than kibble if you are feeding your dog quality raw food, meaning food fit for human consumption--where the cost benefit comes in IMHO is when you spend as much or even more on raw and then you are saving on vet bills so really feeding raw is not "cheaper" than kibble and in fact can be more time consuming but the benefits, over a longer period of time, more than likely outweigh the risks.....


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


>


I don't really have anything to add to the conversation, I just wanted to say that your guy is one *handsome* ACD. Love the name too


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I don't really have anything to add to the conversation, I just wanted to say that your guy is one *handsome* ACD. Love the name too


Thank you.... He is my bud.... His registered name is Call Me Work N Some Magic



RawFedDogs said:


> You are going to a lot of vitamin C trouble for nothing.  Dogs don't need Vit C in their diet at all. They make all they need in their liver. Humans and hamsters are the only mammals that don't have the ability to create Vit C internally. If you feed them Vit C in the diet, it gets excreeded almost immediately.


On the vitamin C issue...... Growing up, we had working cow dogs (mostly Catahoulas) bird dogs, and free running hounds. My grandfather always dosed his dogs with vitamin C during the time the year when they were working hard. His dogs worked harder, longer, and recovered faster than other dogs in our group.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> When I have seen livestocked killed by feral dogs or coyotes, the stomachs are often eaten.


Yes, they are eaten but only after the contents have been shaken out. I feed my dogs whole rabbits from time to time and they sometimes catch wild rabbits. After they are finished eating all that is left is a neat little pile of intestines and stomach contents strewn around the area. They sissor open the stomach with thier back teeth and shake the contents out.

It's the same with wolves and their kills. It is a normal happening. Most raw feeders I have talked to who feed whole prey report the same thing. I have talked to a few whose dogs eat the stomach with contents but that is the exception to the rule.



Ginny01OT said:


> I don't know why a majority of people think that feeding raw is "cheaper" than kibble--it shouldn't be "cheaper" than kibble if you are feeding your dog quality raw food, meaning food fit for human consumption--where the cost benefit comes in IMHO is when you spend as much or even more on raw and then you are saving on vet bills so really feeding raw is not "cheaper" than kibble and in fact can be more time consuming but the benefits, over a longer period of time, more than likely outweigh the risks.....


Because it IS cheaper once you learn how to shop for your dogs food and you learn to order in bulk. All the food I feed my dogs comes from a grocery store. I get chicken backs for 13.5 cents/lb. Leg quarters for around 50 cents/lb. Turkey necks for around 60 to 70 cents/lb and beef heart for about 80 to 90 cents/lb, sometimes as cheap as 50 cents/lb. I get a good bit of free meat & bones off of freecycle from people cleaning out their freezer or from deer hunters cleaning out their freezer making room for this years kill.

The secrets for buying cheap are:
1. get a freezer just for the dogs
2. buy in bulk
3. shop around and find someone who will sell to you in bulk at or near wholesale prices.
4. Use sites such as freecycle and craigslist to get free food.
5. don't shop by phone, go in person. You get a lot better response when you do.

As for the extra time. It takes me maybe an hour a month, sometimes two packaging up the food before freezing. You are right about vet bills, too. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> On the vitamin C issue...... Growing up, we had working cow dogs (mostly Catahoulas) bird dogs, and free running hounds. My grandfather always dosed his dogs with vitamin C during the time the year when they were working hard. His dogs worked harder, longer, and recovered faster than other dogs in our group.


Your grandfather obviously did a lot of things right with his dogs. Feeding Vit C did not contribute to his success. Feeding high energy food is probably his secret.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes, they are eaten but only after the contents have been shaken out.
> It's the same with wolves and their kills. It is a normal happening. Most raw feeders I have talked to who feed whole prey report the same thing. I have talked to a few whose dogs eat the stomach with contents but that is the exception to the rule.


Well....... Your dogs may very well shake it out...... But I have witnessed something VERY different first hand. You don't know me from Adam.... But my name is John D Cone. I am a registered licensed nusiance wildlife trapper in the State of Florida. I operate as John D Cone D/B/A Native Trapping. 
If you doubt that information you are welcome to look here.
http://fwc.myflorida.com/fwcwww/fwc_www.nwt_nuisance_wildlife_pkg.nwt_active_trappers_rpt_pr

I am listed about three quarters of the way down the page. A gentleman by the name of Mike Belderes is my associate and operates under my license. Together we have over 60 years years of controling livestock predation. 

Over the years I cannot begin to tell you the number of coyote and feral dog kills I have inspected. Cattle, goats, hogs, poultry, etc They do not always eat the stomachs and and the contents. But it is common. In fact if it is a cattle kill, almost invariably the rumen is eaten. Contents and all. In case you are unaware the rumen is the second stomach in cattle. It is where the feed ferments and the fatty acids are nutrients are extracted. In other words it is where the cellulose is broken down. The VERY best bait to use in a live trap for either feral dogs or coyotes is a fresh rumen.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Well....... Your dogs may very well shake it out...... But I have witnessed something VERY different first hand. You don't know me from Adam.... But my name is John D Cone. I am a registered licensed nusiance wildlife trapper in the State of Florida. I operate as John D Cone D/B/A Native Trapping.
> If you doubt that information you are welcome to look here.
> http://fwc.myflorida.com/fwcwww/fwc_www.nwt_nuisance_wildlife_pkg.nwt_active_trappers_rpt_pr
> 
> ...



hahah PWNED.


I think you'll find that no matter your expertise, RFD not going to take anything you say seriously. 

Your dog is gorgeous BTW.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes, they are eaten but only after the contents have been shaken out. I feed my dogs whole rabbits from time to time and they sometimes catch wild rabbits. After they are finished eating all that is left is a neat little pile of intestines and stomach contents strewn around the area. They sissor open the stomach with thier back teeth and shake the contents out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your dog discarding the contents of a rabbit stomach is VERY different than a canine eating the stomach contents of an ungulate. Even if some of the contents are shaken out, the honey comb nature of the first stomach traps a SIGNIFICANT amount of vegetable matter. Ever fed your dog green tripe? They go NUTS for it. 


And dosing with vitamin c in performance dogs was not something only my grandfather knew..... He was the first one I saw do it. But it is pretty common in performance circles. Outdoors Life did an article on a study in 1990. 

There are other studies showing that supplimenting vitamin C supports both skeletal and soft tissue function and repair. 

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm
http://www.outdoorlife.com/article/Hunting/Food-for-Hunting-Season

BTW its Guinea pigs that cannot produce vitamin C.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

After paying $100.00 plus for a freezer for the dog. ??how much for electric a month to keep it frozen. ?? how much to run around to get the best deal on your cheaper meat. Not to mention your time. I'm not sure about yours but mine is a premium. 
Not sure how Raw can be much cheaper than kibble. As far as Vet bills. I've been feeding kibble for years and the only vet bills I have are to go for a rabies shot and a yearly check up. Ohhh. I did have a dog bitten by a husky near the eye and tore it's lid. Wasn't cheap but don't think anything would have prevented it other than not letting her socialize with others. To bad the other dog wasn't very social.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> hahah PWNED.
> 
> 
> I think you'll find that no matter your expertise, RFD not going to take anything you say seriously.
> ...


Thanks on the complement.....

BTW I am new here and have no intention of causing a rift.......I also do not claim or hope to know everything about anything...... But I am real and don't talk smack about things I have not either experienced first hand on done considerable research on. 

And opinions vary on the benefits of vitamin C in dogs. But there are a bunch of studies on the subject by some people with some pretty serious credentials. Some vets are even using ester c in symptomatic treatment of hip dysplasia. Maybe RFD might do a google search some time. 

I could really care less if RFD has different opinions. I can tell you this that when Merlin starts competing in herding trials in the spring and agility next fall, I will ramp up his vitamin C intake.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

shets114 said:


> After paying $100.00 plus for a freezer for the dog. ??how much for electric a month to keep it frozen. ??


Some people already have a freezer in the home. Might as well put it to good use. And the new freezers (energystar rated) don't use too much electricity. I don't feed raw, but I do see how it could be cheaper or cost the same as a high-quality kibble, if you knew all the right places to buy meat, and your source is not too far from your home.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Over the years I cannot begin to tell you the number of coyote and feral dog kills I have inspected. Cattle, goats, hogs, poultry, etc They do not always eat the stomachs and and the contents. But it is common.


I don't know about the habits of coyotes as they are a seperate species and not a species I have done a lot of study about. They could very well eat stomach contents. I don't know.

I do know that dogs and wolves generally don't eat stomach contents. I know I have fed whole rabbits to 4 dogs and watched them eat. Upon opening the belly, they will carefully remove the intestines and leave them in a neat little pile. They then usually eat the liver and then pull out the stomach and carefully sissor it open and shake the contents all around before ingesting the stomach.

I am on several raw feeding lists and we often discuss stomachs and invariably ALMOST everyone's dogs eat the stomachs in the same way mine do. There are a few exceptions. One of these lists has over 11,000 members so we are not talking about a very few dogs. Neither I nor the others taught the dogs to do this. They instinctively knew what to do with the very first stomach they ate.

Dr. L. David Mech, a world recognized wolf expert who has spent 30 years researching wild wolves, has written several books and many research papers describes wolves eating their prey in exactly the same way. These prey animals would be things such as deer, elk, buffalo, etc.



> In fact if it is a cattle kill, almost invariably the rumen is eaten. Contents and all. In case you are unaware the rumen is the second stomach in cattle. It is where the feed ferments and the fatty acids are nutrients are extracted. In other words it is where the cellulose is broken down. The VERY best bait to use in a live trap for either feral dogs or coyotes is a fresh rumen.


Hehe, I know what the rumem is. MANY raw feeders feed their dogs rumen. We call it green tripe. I have never fed it to my dogs but the people who do swear that their dogs love it. Green tripe doesn't have any grass in it except what is still stuck to it after it has been rinsed out.

How many ferel dogs do you have down there that kill cows? I've lived in GA all my life and have owned a few cows years ago. My dad and brother have raised cows for close to 40 years if not more. I have never heard of any farmers around here loosing cows to ferel dogs. Coyotes, yes ... dogs, no.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Some people already have a freezer in the home. Might as well put it to good use. And the new freezers (energystar rated) don't use too much electricity. I don't feed raw, but I do see how it could be cheaper or cost the same as a high-quality kibble, if you knew all the right places to buy meat, and your source is not too far from your home.


You can get a good new chest freezer for a few hundred bucks. Heck most weekends you can get a barely used one for 50 bucks. 

I don't think raw is cheaper...... I am getting my chicken wholesale. If I had to guess it is about equal to or slightly more expensive to feed raw as it is to feed a food like Innova.



RawFedDogs said:


> I don't know about the habits of coyotes as they are a seperate species and not a species I have done a lot of study about. They could very well eat stomach contents. I don't know.
> 
> I do know that dogs and wolves generally don't eat stomach contents. I know I have fed whole rabbits to 4 dogs and watched them eat. Upon opening the belly, they will carefully remove the intestines and leave them in a neat little pile. They then usually eat the liver and then pull out the stomach and carefully sissor it open and shake the contents all around before ingesting the stomach.
> 
> ...


Again..... A dog removing the stomach contents from rabbits is a different matter than an ungulate. Coyotes do differ slightly from wolves and dogs. But they are still members of the family Canidae. Coyotes are capable of interbreeding with both wolves and dogs. In fact they are likely partially responsible to the disappearance of the red wolf. Via breeding them out of existance. At least in some areas. Coyotes commonly interbreed with feral dogs. Often called coy dogs. 


I would say that dogs are as much of a problem with livestock here as coyotes. Not all of them are feral. Strays and pets that are allowed to run free are a problem.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Your dog discarding the contents of a rabbit stomach is VERY different than a canine eating the stomach contents of an ungulate. "
> 
> According to Dr. Mech, wild wolves don't eat stomach contents. He is recognized as the #1 wild wolf expert in the world. I don't know about coyotes, possibly they do eat contents.
> 
> ...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> JohnnyBandit said:
> 
> 
> > Your dog discarding the contents of a rabbit stomach is VERY different than a canine eating the stomach contents of an ungulate. "
> ...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I don't think raw is cheaper...... I am getting my chicken wholesale. If I had to guess it is about equal to or slightly more expensive to feed raw as it is to feed a food like Innova.


I feed two Great Danes and 2 cats raw for around $70 - $80/month. I don't think I could buy a medium grade kibble for that.



> Coyotes are capable of interbreeding with both wolves and dogs. In fact they are likely partially responsible to the disappearance of the red wolf. Via breeding them out of existance.


Hehe, I have seen it both ways ... 1. A red wolf was created by a wolf/coyote breeding. 2. What you said.  I don't think #1 has been proved with DNA.



> At least in some areas. Coyotes commonly interbreed with feral dogs. Often called coy dogs.


I don't think thats happening around here. I don't think feral dogs are even a problem around here.



> I would say that dogs are as much of a problem with livestock here as coyotes. Not all of them are feral. Strays and pets that are allowed to run free are a problem.


When you inspect a cow kill, can you tell if it was a dog(s) or coyote(s)? how?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I feed two Great Danes and 2 cats raw for around $70 - $80/month. I don't think I could buy a medium grade kibble for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It can be difficult..... But..... If you get to the kill fast.... Coyotes kill more efficiently. Dogs will maul and ravage an animal. Dogs will also kill wantonly. A coyote or coyotes will come into a field and kill one animal and eat it. Dogs will often kill multiple animals. Not to long ago I saw 13 sheep killed in a pen. None were eaten. This was obviously stray or free running dogs. Ferals would have fed on at least one. Paw print size can be a telling factor. IF you see a paw print that looks like a 60 pound or larger animal made it, it was probably dogs. 
Plus often times the landowner sees the animals being taken or sees the cuprits around. 
Then there is always what shows up in the traps. You don't really have a way to prove what you caught is what is killing stock. But you can tell a feral or a stray dog from someones pet. But if you catch a few and the stock killings stop it is a good assumption you got the culprits.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Never said vitamin C cured hip dysplasia. I said it is used to treat symptoms.


I skimmed though the 2 articles you linked to and I thought one of them said it cured it but I may have skimmed too fast.  So you are saying that vit C acts like a pain killer? 



> Well I go back to my experiences. Mostly with Grandaddies hounds.... I am confident diet did not play a huge factor.


I don't remember if you said if you were a hunter or not but if you had two nearly equal dogs that you could feed vit c to one and not to the other for the first few hunts and see if you can tell the difference, it would be great. I would be very interested in hearing the results on that little experiment. 

Here is a little something I had filed away that I just ran across again ...

_VITAMIN C REQUIREMENTS
"Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" for Veterinary Clinical Nutrition, Volume 4, Number 1, 1997, Published by Veterinary Practice Publishing Company, P.O. Box 4457, Santa Barbara, CA 93140, Phone - 805-965-1028, Fax - 805-965-0722. 

L-ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is necessary for hydroxylation of proline and lysine during biosynthesis of collagen, a major component of ligaments and bones. Food devoid of Vitamin C fed to puppies for 147 to 154 days neither affected growth nor caused skeletal lesions.(12) There are no known dietary requirements for Vitamin C in the dog.(11)

Vitamin C supplementation in pigs elevates plasma levels of Vitamin C without changing articular concentrations of hydroxyproline.(13) Similar studies in dogs demonstrated transient elevation of plasma Vitamin C concentrations; however, long-term supplementation did not increase concentrations much above normal.(14) Even though Vitamin C has been recommended, the relationship between Vitamin C and developmental skeletal disorders in dogs such as osteochondrosis and hip dysplasia is unproven.(15)_


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> I was given and old bag of this stuff and i dumped it out in the grass for the chickens to eat.
> 
> I couldn't keep Tippy away from it. I think she ate more than the birds did. And when she was full, she carried around the bigger pieces like toys.


Yeah I dunno why. I HATE the stuff!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Hello....
> 
> I am new here.....
> 
> ...


That is a big diet plan. Welcome. He has a cute face. Although he looks a little heavy to me. Might just be the pic though.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> That is a big diet plan. Welcome. He has a cute face. Although he looks a little heavy to me. Might just be the pic though.


Yea its possibly a bit large ingredient wise. And there may be a few things I could omit. But I certainly don't think I am overdoing anything. Or feeding anything that might cause harm. Its not really difficult to make. I have a system.

Must be the picture but he was a pound or so more than I wanted him. He was at 52 pounds....Currently he is a svelt 51 pounds. Which is a bit on the big side for an Australian Cattle Dog. But he is a big ACD. He is right at the top of the standard height wise and big boned. I keep close tabs on his weight (unlike mine. I am the fat guy gaiting him) He has a nice waist line, can feel each rib easily, etc. 

Had him at the Breeders yesterday. She was doing a pre show inspection. (I have him in a show next Sunday) She thinks he is perfect....


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## Beagle (Nov 27, 2008)

My 14 year old Beagle, has been on raw for 2 years now. She use to eat the best vet kibble.

We switched because of the pet-food scare. She eats Natures Variety; venison, rabbit or lamb. Here are the ingredients for the venison:

_INGREDIENTS: Venison, Lamb Heart, Lamb Liver, Raw Ground Lamb Bone, Apples, Carrots, Pumpkinseeds, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseed, Chicken Eggs, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Salmon Oil, Olive Oil, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove._

Before she switched, her liver enzymes were super high at 1605 (113 is high). Her vet kept telling me had Cushings or liver disease. We tried everything. Her nose had also dried up, peeled and bled sometimes. Her coat was dry with dander and she was overweight at 38lbs.

Now, 2 years later, her liver enzymes are down to 215. Her nose is wet and all healed, the way it should be. And she is the perfect weight of 30 lbs for her size. Her coat is shiny, hydrated, super-soft and little shedding.

Another great thing, is that she poops twice per day...not like 10 times before.

Its truely the best ... and she loves it so much! She was never really interested in eating kibble before.


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## Meghan&Pedro (Nov 6, 2006)

My dogs eat a whole food (organic) cooked diet. I cannot do raw, as to my 4 year old has an auto immune disease, and would be too likely to contract bacterial colitis on a raw food diet.

I feed a moderate carbohydrate diet for the two small ones, and a traditional proportions for the large breed.

I rotate through my proteins, my fibrous carbs and my starchy carbs on a meal-to-meal basis. I think the variety is the key to a healthy diet. I also supplement appropriatly to compensate for the fact that I am cooking the food (a basic kelp based vitiman/mineral supplement, as well as an Omega 3/6 supplement after cooking)

My two small dogs eat about 4-6% of their body weight a day (depending on the composition of the food, and my large breed eats 3-4%. They all have small, firm stools, and are all lean. I can feel ribs on all three dogs, but their toplines are well covered with muscle, as are their shoulders and haunches. My vet always asks me if I feed raw or low carb because of the great shape that they're in (she says you could bounce a nickle off of the two little ones) but it's just as much diet as it is exercise.

In the group picture I circled her - that's her wearing her Christmas ear muffs with one of my Christmas puppy class graduating late last year.


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