# So, my girls are going into e-collar training.



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I have watched this trainer at classes 4 nights a week for a month now, and his dogs seem great, as do the others in class that are using them, with their dogs mostly off leash.

I haven't been able to even tell when they are activating them except very occasionally, if they even are acivating them.

His point of view is to use it right, for only as long as needed. He will only train with collars he supplies, and his deal is to buy them back as soon as they are not needed any more.

I wanted to get Hope to desire to obey, to look forward to it, but it just isn't happening outside. I can't reward what she won't give me, and she doesn't give much. She knows exactly what I want, but won't do it as she has her own priorities in mind.

So I decided to give this a try, and if I settle for her obeying because she has to, which this might or might not have that effect, I can then reward and praise heavily and maybe get her to desire to in the end anyway.

Kaya may be another story, I don't feel I really need it with her, she's soft and fearful, and I'm not committed to going forward with her depending on her reaction.

One fearful timid GSD, one headstrong GSD full of drive.

Any interest in me documenting my experience with it as I go? Success, failure, technique and results? I start on it tomorrow morning at class when both Hope and Kaya will be fitted, and I will have an hour long private session in how to fit it, use it, and when to do so as far as judgement and timing and circumstance.


----------



## Unleashed (Mar 18, 2010)

I would love to hear more, I am looking into the e-collar and trainers right now in my area. would be nice to get some info on how your dogs are doing with it.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I am interested in seeing how it goes with you TX. You probably know my feelings about the collars themselves so I won't get into that, but it IS always good to learn new things and to hear about how they work or don't work.
I'm assuming this trainer is using the collars as R- and not P+?


----------



## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

I used an e-collar in an e-collar class when I first got my dog and realized she needed some training. (was obedient, just not with distractions) Used "correctly" my dog (and others in the class) didn't yelp, become fearful, or become aggressive like many people think. For me, I used it more in proofing. I would teach her things using positive reinforcement (clicker training) and then proofed those behaviors outside with distraction (in the mall, by dog parks, etc.) I did use treats here and there for exceptionally difficult things though. 

Worked really well for me! I no longer use it and she is obedient off leash in nearly all situations. I was at the point where I would allow her to chase things and with one recall had her coming back to me in a complete 180. I'm away at college now though she isn't quite as good as that anymore!


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I wanted to get Hope to desire to obey, to look forward to it, but it just isn't happening outside. I can't reward what she won't give me, and she doesn't give much. She knows exactly what I want, but won't do it as she has her own priorities in mind.
> 
> So I decided to give this a try, and if I settle for her obeying because she has to, which this might or might not have that effect, I can then reward and praise heavily and maybe get her to desire to in the end anyway.


It can--not saying it will--have the desired effect. Some dogs just need to have their attention properly focused on what the handler wants. My boy has serious drive and, much of the time, I may as well not have existed. It's not that he was especially difficult, but that he was highly self-directed. He learned PDQ that life is a whole lot more fun when I'm getting what I want. Now, there is no shortage of enthusiasm on display. Sometimes success is its own reward, and it is possible to worry too much about how the dog feels about things.



TxRider said:


> Kaya may be another story, I don't feel I really need it with her, she's soft and fearful, and I'm not committed to going forward with her depending on her reaction.


Things can get a bit dicey with fearful dogs, but there are times when a dog just has to do the thing and learn that nothing bad will happen.


----------



## KennethDGomez (Mar 20, 2010)

Training a dog with a shock collar, or electronic training device, is relatively easy, as long as some easy guidelines are followed. Purchase a collar that has various levels of correction available, including a tone button. Put the collar on the dog for a few days without turning it on so that the dog does not relate the new collar with the correction. Never let the dog see you use the handheld correction device. When the dog is misbehaving, give them a direct and heartfelt "No!" If they do not stop the bad behavior at the first correction, increase the correction one notch, and repeat Step 4 until you get their attention. Do not use their name in connection to a negative. Do not leave the collar on overnight or in a kennel. Do not allow children to use the handheld device. Shock collars electrically shock pets as a means of discipline. Shock collars typically malfunction because of failing batteries or a fault in the transmitter. Shock collars can reach levels of 7,500 volts. An animal's personality may change from the use of a shock collar. Shock collars for dogs are quickly becoming the most popular method of correcting bad behavior and training a dog to do as it's told.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I am interested in seeing how it goes with you TX. You probably know my feelings about the collars themselves so I won't get into that, but it IS always good to learn new things and to hear about how they work or don't work.
> I'm assuming this trainer is using the collars as R- and not P+?


I believe this is the case, used to proof behaviors under distraction. I'll know more once we have done the intro stuff, looks like this morning will be off due to rainstorm. Probably delayed until next Wed or Thursday.

The whole class is really based on proofing with distractions. It's all outside rotating through several parks and outdoor environments, shopping centers etc. You are expected to teach the dog behaviors at home, as shown, and class is more practice under distraction. The goal being reliable off leash behavior under any distraction.


----------



## pandora (Mar 19, 2010)

I would like to see the owners of badly trained dogs fitted with e collars everytime the idiot owner fouls up ..shock him


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

pandora said:


> I would like to see the owners of badly trained dogs fitted with e collars everytime the idiot owner fouls up ..shock him


I won't deny that I have fantasized about the same thing, but the reality is that most people are just ignorant. And ignorance is curable.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am glad you are going to someone who has experience and results. The issue always is getting the dog to relate the stimulus with BEHAVIOR and not something in the ENVIRONMENT. They need to know the stim is coming from YOU. 



> originally posted by *Sonya610*: I would be very interested to hear how it goes. I recently spent $250 on an e-collar and then decided not to use it (trainer recommended it for dog/dog aggression and now I believe that would be a really bad idea).
> 
> I have thought about keeping it to teach recall. I have to decide in the next week or so, any good input would be appreciated.


I went to a class where the instructor was a self proclaimed cure-er of dog aggressive and people aggressive dogs. In the class were SEVERAL dogs that were dog aggressive (mine was not and was already well beyond the level of this class.. I went to see about it). 

After 3 weeks the trainer introduced the E Collar to the DA dogs. First dog was a brindle mastiff (young dog) about 130 pounds. He was on a long line and allowed to approach other dogs.. and the instant he started to show aggression, he was stimmed (low level) and yanked back with a firm NO! and a recall word. He had been (supposedly) trained to respopnd to the NO and recall work using the long line (this was homework for three weeks). 

Because he was not trained away from other dogs and trained properly to expect and understand the stim, he thought the dog he was approaching had caused the stim.. and as a result he became MORE aggressive. He actually BIT the dogt (in class). He bit another dog and then got the tail hairs of MY non aggressive dog  and that was that.. they realized (a little late) that he was not ready for the E Collar. 

Fast forward to the next week after this class. Wife was out walking the 130 pound Mastiff. Dog sees another dog on the walk.. goes nutz.. breaks away from her and attacks and kills the dog he sees.. and was then PTS. Dog was YOUNG. Dog had NEVER bitten another dog until that class. That classs PROVED to this dog that other dogs were 'dangerous' and ultimately TWO DOGS DIED. 

I am not saying E collars should not be in your training tool box. I am saying that you best know precisely what you are doing before you invoke their use. Most people do not know how to properly use them. 

There are instances where E collar training is a necessary tool. IMO it is not a tool to be used on every dog.. and again.. be sure you have someone training who knows what they are doing. 

Let us know how it goes Tx. Good luck.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

There are a few dog aggressive, or rather dog reactive, dogs in class. One of them latched onto Hope's face and held on for a while a week and a half ago when I lapsed attention and Hope went up to it to lick it's face before class.

Dogs that are reactive wear a bandanna so everyone knows it, orange for dog aggressive and red for human aggressive. And they wear a muzzle. The one that latched on to Hope's face was new and hadn't been fitted for muzzle yet.

He works with them in more of a desensitizing manner, they stay a bit separate for most of the exercises if needed and we do special exercises for them with the rest of the dogs placed on place boards so the aggressive dog owners can work with them and practice heeling them by dogs and keeping their focus and slowly desensitizing until they can be worked along with the other dogs.

Only one has not been able to work with the regular class so far, a ridge back that I am not sure can ever be cured, but her owner is one dedicated girl.

From what I have seen, this trainer introduces the collar himself, and works with the dog for about an hour, one on one, introducing it, working the dog through recall, sit, down etc. with it while instructing.

He said you could "burn" a dog away from aggression on say cats or squirrels, but he doesn't recommend using a collar like that. I get the idea it's a low level stim 2 seconds after a command until the dog complies, or a low level stim like a poke in the shoulder to break focus from a distraction and get it's attention and focus.

We've been too busy at classes, and it's been dark and cold a lot of the time, so I haven't been able to talk to the others that are using them much.

Overall this class is what I was looking for, dealing with dogs outside, around other dogs and people and distractions. That is where I am having insurmountable problems with Hope, and couldn't see myself getting past without a consistent controlled environment outside, around dogs and people, to work in. Around the house she's a great dog, smart, attentive and obedient.

We did rain out today, and now it's even snowing, so it'll be later this week before they get their e-collar intro. I am anxious to see how they react.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

TxRider said:


> There are a few dog aggressive, or rather dog reactive, dogs in class. One of them latched onto Hope's face and held on for a while a week and a half ago when I lapsed attention and Hope went up to it to lick it's face before class.
> 
> Dogs that are reactive wear a bandanna so everyone knows it, orange for dog aggressive and red for human aggressive. And they wear a muzzle. The one that latched on to Hope's face was new and hadn't been fitted for muzzle yet.
> 
> ...


I will be interested in hearing your progress. The trainer sounds like they know what they are doing, and I hope it helps you and your dogs! I like the philosophy of only using the tool as long as needed; weaning them off the e-collar is probably no different than fading a lure, fading out treats/toys/clicks, etc. I hope all goes well for you guys


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> One of them latched onto Hope's face and held on for a while a week and a half ago when I lapsed attention and Hope went up to it to lick it's face before class.


Be VERY careful continuing this class. The dog that was in the class I attended grabbed about 5 hairs out of the very TIP of Atka's tail and her reaction was a look at dog and then at me as if to say, "WTF?"???" Because the attacking dog was on a long line I trusted the trainer and his assitant to CONTROL this dog. Unfortunately, things were well OUT of control by that point and the rest of the story ensued. 

I attended one more class.. and I brought my walking stick with me and stayed between my dog and ALL other dogs in that class. Then I decided the whlle thing was pure idiocy to continue. Two dogs were dead.. and the instructor decided the whole issue was because a _woman_ was out walking the dog. Hello????? Continuing would have made for two idots... one running theclass and the other one attending the class. I walked. 

BTW I never let them use an E Collar on my dog. As I said, she was trained well beyond the level of this class. She does nto NEED an e Collar. 

IF a dog trainer wants to re-hab aggressive dogs, IMO that is his/her choice. HOWEVER, I would NOT mix the classes. Mixing the classes mixes up owners with aggressive dogs who don't have a clue AND owners who don't 
aahve a clue with non aggressive dogs. That is an accident waiting to happen. "Hope" had an accident already!

When teaching a dog class with owner handlers the instructor should ALWAYS assume the owners do not have a clue. You will prevent accidents this way and prevention is 9/10ths of the cure when training dogs! 

IMO there should be two separate classes and if a dog had not been fitted for a muzzle "yet" it should have been marked and kept separate.. or out of class.. until a muzzle applied. 

In all honesty, I would not return to this class or to this trainer considering the above quoted statement. I care too much for the well being of my dog to risk it. Been there and done that. My opinion only.

How many students are in this class? How long are the class sessions? 

Thank you for updating BTW, even if you do not agree with what I have said and I do not think this class is a good idea (we do not need to agree.. this is the internet... ). My opinions are based on experience and care for your dog and they are my opinions only.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> IMO there should be two separate classes and if a dog had not been fitted for a muzzle "yet" it should have been marked and kept separate.. or out of class.. until a muzzle applied.


The dog was marked, it was my fault I wasn't paying attention and allowed Hope to go stick her nose right in it's face. This happened before class when we were milling about and convering with each other.

To be honest she is a little rude in that regard, running straight up to other dogs and licking their nose, and I'm surprised no other dogs have done this to her.



> How many students are in this class? How long are the class sessions?


It depends, as I said all classes are in open outdoor settings, better weather means more people usually. Class seems to vary in what we exercise by how many show up. Usually it's maybe 10 people, Saturday morning sessions maybe twice that.

The reactive dogs are separated, depending on severity of their problem, and muzzled. They practice different exercises than the rest of the dogs.

For example non reactive dogs practice heeling weaving in an out through the rest of the dogs while they practice sit or down stays in a row with about 6 feet between them.

The reactive dogs instead take a turn to approach from a distance and walk by at a distance they can work with to try to teach them not to fixate and to hold their focus on the handler.

When they have been worked with enough over months and are able to, they join in the line of dogs being weaved through, and heeling between the other dogs in a weave as well, though still muzzled. 

It's judged on an individual dog basis how they are treated, severity of issue, what triggers it etc.. Each reactive dog gets it's own specific exercises depending on what is triggering it to react. Each gets it's own turn to work a few exercises for it's specific issue each class.

I think that's ok, it's done safely enough. I have no problem with them using my dog to work with these reactive dogs, after all I'm there to use others dogs to work on my dogs issues as well, she simply isn't aggressive, more hyper friendly.



> Thank you for updating BTW, even if you do not agree with what I have said and I do not think this class is a good idea (we do not need to agree.. this is the internet... ). My opinions are based on experience and care for your dog and they are my opinions only.


I think the class is fine, I do not fear for my dogs there. The e-collars I haven't made up my mind about though, just decided to give it a try, and judge the reaction result carefully.

The scabs fell off Hope's nose this week, she is getting a nice junk yard dog look with the crinkled scar tissue ears and the new line across her snout... i hope it's not a permanent scar.

You would think it might make her think twice about running right up to strange dogs and licking their nose, but 15 minutes later she would have run right back up to that dog again. One thing I'll say for Hope, she has a very stable temperament, not much shakes her up.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

TxRider said:


> The dog was marked, it was my fault I wasn't paying attention and allowed Hope to go stick her nose right in it's face. This happened before class when we were milling about and convering with each other.


This is PRECISELY why the aggressive dog class ought to be held at a different time and/or location than the class with non aggressive dogs. 

Most owners in a new class situation do not know.. or if they do, do not pay close enough attention and stuff happens. 



> To be honest she is a little rude in that regard, running straight up to other dogs and licking their nose, and I'm surprised no other dogs have done this to her.


As is my dog. I simply do not allow her to run up to any other dogs. Ever. Most owners are not this "on top" of their dog's behavior and things happen. 

I consider you a reasonably experienced dog owner and it happend to YOU. '

In my case I have trained my dog and trained my dog and trained my dog and I am still training my dog to focus on ME around other dogs. In the class where the Mastiff got a few of her tail hairs, she was laying down, facing me (back to the Mastiff) and focused on me. She was not straining to get at the other dog. It took me a full year to get this.. and the aggressive dog could have really taken that year away from us. 

I have the most environmentally interactive inattentive dog I have EVER had. I have spent a LOT of time just working on focus. I think anyone can attain this if they are willing to work a lot at it.. and work a lot at it to the exclusion of other things in distradting situations. 

The classes should be separate by both time and location IMO. Safer for all. Not as profitable to the trainer but way way safer. 



> It depends, as I said all classes are in open outdoor settings, better weather means more people usually. Class seems to vary in what we exercise by how many show up. Usually it's maybe 10 people, Saturday morning sessions maybe twice that.


Eight, regardless of the day of the week, is the max for a single trainer and assistant. Biggest class I have seen was 10 and that was puppies under 6 months old. Twenty is too many... especially when some of the dogs are aggressive. It sin't the size of the space used.. it is the number of dog/handler teams per instructor. 



> The reactive dogs are separated, depending on severity of their problem, and muzzled. They practice different exercises than the rest of the dogs.
> 
> For example non reactive dogs practice heeling weaving in an out through the rest of the dogs while they practice sit or down stays in a row with about 6 feet between them.
> 
> ...


This class sounds like the one I attended. I had no problem with my dog being used in the class either until things went wrong. Next class... the last one I went to.. I brought my solid maple walking stick, wore heavy boots and had gloves and kept between the other dogs and my dog. 

Rather an ultra friendly dog who is a pleaure to be around than a fear aggressive dog I need to retrain. No dog in that class was EVER going to touch my dog again. 



> I think the class is fine, I do not fear for my dogs there. The e-collars I haven't made up my mind about though, just decided to give it a try, and judge the reaction result carefully.
> 
> The scabs fell off Hope's nose this week, she is getting a nice junk yard dog look with the crinkled scar tissue ears and the new line across her snout... i hope it's not a permanent scar.


You are VERY lucky you have a forgiving dog. My last GSD tolerated other dogs but if what happened to Hope had happend to her, there might have been a dead dog in the class (NOT her BTW) and she would never have tolerated other dogs again. 

You got away with this one. I am glad you got a freebie. You are, again, VERY lucky. 



> You would think it might make her think twice about running right up to strange dogs and licking their nose, but 15 minutes later she would have run right back up to that dog again. One thing I'll say for Hope, she has a very stable temperament, not much shakes her up.


Actually, again, you are very very lucky. Not all dogs.. and in fact, most of the dogs I have owned, would have been friendly first time and second time less so. A second incident would have given ME a training problem with my dog. 

My current dog is much like Hope but it does not mean I will "trust" that disposition to stick no matter what. 

Be careful. Again I say this. 
Prevention is 9/10ths of the cure.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Actually, again, you are very very lucky. Not all dogs.. and in fact, most of the dogs I have owned, would have been friendly first time and second time less so. A second incident would have given ME a training problem with my dog.
> 
> My current dog is much like Hope but it does not mean I will "trust" that disposition to stick no matter what.
> 
> ...


Yes it can happen to anyone, Hope broke a sit/stay when I was looking the other way, and though I had the end of her leash in hand she could just reach the other dog before I noticed. At that point I had not seen that dog react aggressively before. It was also a new rescue for the owner and I think he was surprised as well and didn't expect that reaction.

And yes I am lucky, the other owner has been profusely apologetic for it. Hope responded more with confusion, no aggression or fear, and more of determination or drive to go back and make friends with the dog.

Her personality is like that, anything that startles her, or freaks her out at all her reaction is to get right up into it and investigate until she's satisfied herself.

My other dog Kaya is more of an issue, and I have to be a lot more careful with her. If the same had happened to her she likely would not have been able to return to the class, she definitely would be more affected by it..

She is one bubble down from being reactive dog aggressive herself as she is fear based and can get snippy if a dog pushes into her space too much, especially wiggly fast moving dogs. I often only take one dog or the other so I can pay closer attention.

The way I see it it isn't really any more dangerous than a dog park or out walking where we can run into an aggressive or reactive dog at any time with a lot less control over the situation. At least these are muzzled, marked, and leashed.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> The way I see it it isn't really any more dangerous than a dog park or out walking where we can run into an aggressive or reactive dog at any time with a lot less control over the situation. At least these are muzzled, marked, and leashed.


And now you know why I do not take my dog to dog parks (why invite a problem) and why I own a long handled cattle prod or carry a heavy walking stick. 

I cannot control the situation if approached by an aggressive dog, but I sure can control the outcome!



> At least these are muzzled, marked, and leashed.


Except when they are not and Hope got nailed in the face....


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> The classes should be separate by both time and location IMO. Safer for all. Not as profitable to the trainer but way way safer.


Quick and to the point, I know I can't make anybody follow the above advice, if I could I would. 

Choices, Choices, Choices.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Point taken.

It appears to be the best choice I have found locally.

It's either soccer mom's agility courses, or clicker training in the same room every class, or domination/aversive based training, or petsmart training it seems and this guy seems kind of uniquely different around here.

I'll follow up when I get started with the collars, likely Wed or Thursday.

I'm comitting to trying it and following the trainer's instructions, at least for a while. We'll see where it goes.

The girls have improved a little outside with distractions these first few weeks, stay and heeling are much better, but it's not enough time for really significant improvement I guess.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I too am curious how it works out. I'm extremely skeptical about e-collars and they seem borderline barbaric to me. Yet, I know people who train hunting dogs professionally and use them. I've seen the dogs that have come out of their programs and they are very well trained dogs who are not fearful and don't suffer from HA or DA. I can't argue with the fact that they do work in at least some circumstances.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Looks like tomorrow is the day.

I warned him to take extra care with Kaya, because if her first experience causes a fear reaction, which is about a 50/50 shot I'd say, it's all over for her and the collar.

I'll post up how it goes. The girls did well in class tonight, Hope was good on her sit/stays and did half the heeling exercise dragging her leash. She never ceases to surprise me, just when I think she'll never do something, no matter how I hard I work with her on it, she does it.

I think she has been to this location enough times that it's less distracting now though too.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

TxRider said:


> The girls have improved a little outside with distractions these first few weeks, stay and heeling are much better, but *it's not enough time for really significant improvement *I guess.


It does take time. Considerable time.. and time training.. and training in a pile of new places. 

I am working on this. I will be working on distractions for the duratin of the dog's life. It is how dogs are. 

It takes 2 years of work, on average, to get a competition Heel on a dog. Trust me.. that is about right. 



TxRider said:


> I think she has been to this location enough times that it's less distracting now though too.


This is why proofing in many places is so important regardless of how you train your dog. I could not get my dog's attention at dog club.. now I can but it is MUCH harder at a dog show (for instance).


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> It does take time. Considerable time.. and time training.. and training in a pile of new places.
> 
> I am working on this. I will be working on distractions for the duratin of the dog's life. It is how dogs are.
> 
> ...


Yeah I've been at it for a year now with Hope, I expected to be a little farther along by now.

One the main reasons I chose this class is the proofing in a wide variety of environments. Saturday it will be a rally setup.. Never done that before. Last Saturday before that was a large outdoor shopping center, heeling through the Apple store and sit stay inside was fun... 

Looks like I may rain out again for class tonight, and postpone the collar into once again..  Big cold front is coming over and looks like it will be right at class time.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Ok, we did the collar introduction.

This is going to be interesting.

Hope ended up on setting 3, Kaya on 1.5

I was worried about Kaya as she develops phobias easily, like her clicker phobia which she picked up with only about 3-4 clicks when trying to load a clicker with her.

She also doesn't do well with any level of force whatsoever, or do well with a strange handler she doesn't trust.

She showed no bad reaction at all. In fact I couldn't tell if she even felt it really.

The instructions are to push the button right as I give a command, more just a tap on the shoulder to get there attention and break focus on whatever they are focused on so they more easily focused on me.

I put their collars on my neck when I got home. The control has three buttons, with three levels of stim. He told me to only use the lowest one.

With Kaya's I can barely feel it, it feels basically like a bug landed on my neck. Hope's is a bit more, but not unpleasant at all, more like a decent finger tap on my neck.

Then I tried button three on Hope's, and that was approaching unpleasant. It didn't really cause pain, but it did make my arm muscle twitch exactly like those TENS physical therapy devices that use electrodes and stim.

I do not want to know what it feels like at level ten, I imagine it would be nasty. In fact I don't see even using the third level button on the current setting.

So anyway, my instructions are to us the lowest level button simultaneously with a command, and it does a very short timed pulse of a few milliseconds. the dogs don't seem to mind it, no twitching or immediate reaction. They do seem to break focus on whatever they were doing sniffing and look back to me more when I give the command though.

I guess the idea is just simply old fashioned conditioning by consistent repetition to always break focus on whatever and focus on my commands.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I will be interested on how this goes forward. I still see nothing here that would have me using this as a regular teaching method as I can get the results I need w/o it. At least that is for the dogs I have handled so far.

The thing is, you cannot have E collars on the grounds of our club and you absolutely cannot have thme on AKC show grounds. You can't have a prong collar or a gentle leader either at an AKC dog show.. but they DO allow full choke colalrs (which I don't use). 

So, the question I would like answered is if the e collar actually can be abandoned at some point and done away with altogether. The other question which I hope you answer by way of this thread will be if you need to up the stim or lower the stim with these two dogs as time goes on.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I will be interested on how this goes forward. I still see nothing here that would have me using this as a regular teaching method as I can get the results I need w/o it. At least that is for the dogs I have handled so far.
> 
> The thing is, you cannot have E collars on the grounds of our club and you absolutely cannot have thme on AKC show grounds. You can't have a prong collar or a gentle leader either at an AKC dog show.. but they DO allow full choke colalrs (which I don't use).
> 
> So, the question I would like answered is if the e collar actually can be abandoned at some point and done away with altogether. The other question which I hope you answer by way of this thread will be if you need to up the stim or lower the stim with these two dogs as time goes on.


The goal is to abandon it as soon as possible. The trainer purchases them back. Now that I think of it, I didn't pay him for them. They key I guess is consistent praise and reward every time they pay attention and are obedient.

Kaya I can train fine without one, other than her fear issues she very trainable, eager to please and biddable. And when she is distracted it is usually being afraid, or very nervous and stressed.

Hope would take years if I can even get her there, treats and praise are zero value when she's distracted, and she's already about 4 years old and very self motivated for self reward and persistent about it.

It does make a difference, Hope does break her focus on distractions and recall noticeably better off leash with distractions. He made it a big point to begin praise the second they look to you and start moving.

I'll post more over time. Maybe a vid. I still have some question on command and timing between two dogs to get clear. No real negatives to report so far though, but it's a bit early in the process yet.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TxRider said:


> The goal is to abandon it as soon as possible. The trainer purchases them back. Now that I think of it, I didn't pay him for them. They key I guess is consistent praise and reward every time they pay attention and are obedient.
> 
> Kaya I can train fine without one, other than her fear issues she very trainable, eager to please and biddable. And when she is distracted it is usually being afraid, or very nervous and stressed.
> 
> ...


I agree, please keep us posted, with 2 dogs different head problems it's very interesting.


> It does make a difference, Hope does break her focus on distractions and recall noticeably better off leash with distractions. He made it a big point to begin praise the second they look to you and start moving.


Isn't this in the kindergarten book of dog training. (making a big deal out of any good moves by dog)


> So, the question I would like answered is if the e collar actually can be abandoned at some point and done away with altogether. The other question which I hope you answer by way of this thread will be if you need to up the stim or lower the stim with these two dogs as time goes on.


My experience is with just a standard recall (the you "must come" type) After frying the dog and I never started with a low stim 1st. I always had it full bore because if I needed it, I needed it and was not playing around. Now that's the bad news, good news was once started it was done quickly. Keep one thought though this program was done primarily with bird dogs running amok or force breaking a retrieve and an occasional Shepherd/Rott/Dobe (my personal dogs) I have never used on any obedience training as prong collars were always my weapons of choice. In almost 50 years maybe 10 e-collared dogs.

I would be interested in competition obedience use of collar where you are looking for precise recalls with proper sits, heeling, stand for inspections etc etc.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> Originally posted by *WVasko*: I would be interested in competition obedience use of collar where you are looking for precise recalls with proper sits, heeling, stand for inspections etc etc.


I know of NO OTCH dogs trained with the exclusive E Collar method and I know of NO OTCH dogs trained with 100% positive reinforcement. IOW's neither extreme provides the consistant, precise results needed to make an obedience champion. Most that I know of are exposed to a prong collar. Most are also exposed to Positive reinforcement. 

IF you want to see Beautiful work.. here is Petra Ford and Tyler at Crufts. THIS is an Open (CDX) run. If you cannot view it, hit the arrow at the upper right of the screen to watch in a different window (glitch at my computer). At Crufts in addition to the remote sit and down, they also require a stand. the "Heel" work is magnificent. In the US (AKC) she keeps her elbow tight to her body (another video of her getting #1 at the invitational, same dog). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAxWCGIiOo8 

THIS heel work BTW is what I aspire to with my dog. Look at the video and if you have sound, you will not lonly SEE but HEAR all the distractions. On the right there is a run off. I believe this was due to a distraction in her first run through. 

So, TxRider... you now have the gold standard to aspire to!  Show this to your instructor and say, "This is what I want MY dog to do...."


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

BTW if you watch the video, looka t how still she keeps her upper body. NO stray signals to louse up the dog. 

I have found that I can mess with my dog's position and precision by being imprecise with my body movements. I think an e collar would really add confusion to the precision necessary. Dogs READ our body position much more precisely than we are aware of. 

We are verbal creatures.. and that is how we communicate to other humans. Dogs are non verbal and communicate to other dogs mostly by body signals.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Isn't this in the kindergarten book of dog training. (making a big deal out of any good moves by dog)


Yeah your always supposed to praise when they come, but I have always praised when they got to me, not when they turned to come.

With Hope it's hard because you can't praise what she won't do.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Actually, you start the praise if they even twitch and ear in your direction.. _ANY_ indication that they heard you call gets praise.. and praise usually leads to the rest of the correct response (especially if every time they hear praise they also get a toy to play with or food etc.).

Just like you correct at the initiation of incorrect response, you praise at the initiation of any form of the correct response.. and build on it.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> THIS heel work BTW is what I aspire to with my dog. Look at the video and if you have sound, you will not lonly SEE but HEAR all the distractions. On the right there is a run off. I believe this was due to a distraction in her first run through.
> 
> So, TxRider... you now have the gold standard to aspire to!  Show this to your instructor and say, "This is what I want MY dog to do...."


His dogs would meet that standard. He usually brings one of his dogs to class, and they are never on leash.

His lab is trained for a regular heel with a heel command, and a a tight attention heel like the video with a foos command. He also has an ACD and two other dogs. I haven't seen the others do an attention heel.

I could teach Kaya an attention heel like that looking up at me in about a year I think, it's her natural tendency already. She will basically do one with lure now and looks up at me like that whenever I say her name. I'm not a big fan of an attention heel though so it's not goal I really aspire to.

Hope I'm not sure I ever could, well maybe if I had a tame squirrel I could carry around under my arm..  I can reach down and rub a piece of meat on her nose when she is heeling and she might glance up for a second if I'm lucky.

First things first though, which is a CGC test and basic obedience.

He also does freestyle training and agility, though I don't think he has any classes for those presently. There are agility trainers out the wazoo around here, the area is very upper middle class and a some of them have very nice indoor facilities.

We had a heel workshop Saturday but I missed it. It was at a city park I hadn't been to and I went to the wrong park. So the girls just got a long off leash walk in the woods along a creek that runs through that city with a very wide park along both sides.

Really the biggest goal I want is simply reliable control, if all I get from this is 100% recall even if they are in full bolt after a rabbit or deer, a decent heel, and control to sit or down/stay that is rock solid I'll be happy. If I can get that their lives will be a lot better with a lot more freedom to go off leash in a lot more places, and ability for me to move forward training of leash outside on my own.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Most people with dogs are looking for pretty much what you are. Pet dogs that walk nice on leash, walk nice off leash, come when called, sit, down and stay.

An attention heel is an excellant way to get what you want. It ups the ante and works the dog's attention span. You don't need the position precision of competition heel work.. but if you can approximate this, you will improve other requirements you have of your dog. 

I took a year off from training to get attention from my dog.. also a GSD. I am still working on it and I *will *get the attentivness of that video. It is going to be awhile yet.. and once we have our CD it will be extra showing as extra proofing... in Novice B. I have also leanred that if I want this in my nexty dog I need to start working on it immediately (attentiveness). 

Atka would give me the "1 second glance" your Hope give you and I built on that. I kept the food coming and I tried different foods. I know someone with a Border Collie who used a toy. You have to experiment with different things. 

I built on that 1 second glance and now I can get minutes. TONS of work.. and it always will be.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Yeah your always supposed to praise when they come, but I have always praised when they got to me, not when they turned to come.
> 
> With Hope it's hard because you can't praise what she won't do.


Well the thing about this silly stuff we call dog training is you can experiment with your dogs as long as they are what I call happy type experiments.


> Yeah your always supposed to praise when they come, but I have always praised when they got to me, not when they turned to come.


By acting excited with that 1st dog move and squealing/screaming acting silly and also using whatever happy words of praise that the dog knows, sometimes you get to watch your dogs pickup speed. When the dog gets to me I don't mind allowing dog to jump up on me while I roll on the ground thump/roughhouse with the dog. Anything I can think of to make dog think I'm the best thing since bubble gum was invented.

This is all basic kindergarten dog stuff done to start dogs on the correct recall program. Actually it's quite old school, if you went to the right school. I 1st learned this from a trainer that was close to my age now and I was 18 at the time.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> This is all basic kindergarten dog stuff done to start dogs on the correct recall program. Actually it's quite old school, if you went to the right school. I 1st learned this from a trainer that was close to my age now and I was 18 at the time.


Hope's kindergaten seems to have been a cage with no human interaction. Her adolescence was being bred for puppies and neglected to the point of nasty disease and near death starvation.

I'm not actually sure she ever walked into a yard full of grass before I got her, her reaction to it certainly was noticeable, like a dogs first snow.

At least she has now stopped eating her own poop, every bug living or dead she can find, and burying things everywhere.

A year ago she was 3yrs old at least, and human voice was no more than background noise to her.

Her recall works like this so far. If I'm out on a walk I can have her stay and walk a block away. Her focus stays locked on me 100% the whole time, like separation anxiety, and when I call her to me I am wincing hoping she doesn't hit me as she is flat out sprinting straight to me.

If she's off leash and wanders away sniffing something, I get no reaction at all, zero. No head turn, no glance, zero. If a rabbit, deer, squirrel etc. comes in sight, she's gone. Eventually the thought of me passes through her mind, she looks around, and if she doesn't see me she flips into separation anxiety and starts frantically trying to find me. I know this because I have hidden when she wouldn't respond after many tries and observed her.

Even on a leash I could not get her to give me so much as a glance unless I made her stay and walked away, or strangely enough if dropped the leash. She would be at the end of the leash, not pulling but keeping it taught, never a glance back no matter what, but if I let go, instant turn and run to me.


Though now I have changed that and she responds much better after much work on it. But treats, happy voice, mad voice, none of this had any effect. 

The one method that broke that ice was just standing in on spot holding the 6ft leash in total silence for as long as it took until she finally decided to look at me, starting at over ten minutes, then rewarding and taking one step and repeating for weeks.

I can say that so far the ecollar has changed that, she now gives me a head turn very time I call her name and hit the button.

Another thing the trainer did when he introduced the collar, was to have me start using a long flexi leash so the dogs have alot more room to roam around me more like if they were off leash. Hope loves the freedom, and I am working on alternating between "heel" and "free" for several miles a day.

I have to admit the walks have been some of the most pleasant I have had with her. And she is enjoying the extra space to travel, and responding to a heel command better every day and improving very quickly.

I have taken to walking the dogs separately so I can concentrate better on timing and praise and be better with commands and less confusing between dogs. I think I may start taking them to classes separately as well for a while.

Kaya I am not so sure will gain as much, she's not the type that needs much of a tap on the shoulder to get her attention.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

No, I wasn't talking doggy kindergarten, I meant trainer kindergarten. Not you, but there are a lot of would be trainers that think they are in the high school or even college of dog training expertise and have completely skipped kindergarten/grade school very basic start of dog work. 

How many times have we heard about somebody putting an e-collar on a dog and frying them before the dog has the slightest idea of why he/she's being fried. 

I think going to a professional trainer that has used and knows the tool puts you much higher up the totem pole. Of course we will to wait for the end product. That's why I'm interested.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

If freedom is what Hope wants (as in the longer lead) use it as a reward for heel. when she is in heel position and looking at your face, if she takes 1 or 2 or 3 steps like that give her your release word and some freedom as a reward. If freedom to investigage is her desire, make it work for you as her motivator.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> If freedom is what Hope wants (as in the longer lead) use it as a reward for heel. when she is in heel position and looking at your face, if she takes 1 or 2 or 3 steps like that give her your release word and some freedom as a reward. If freedom to investigage is her desire, make it work for you as her motivator.


Hmm, if I can get her to look at my face.. 

Hope in the last few weeks has put the various things i have done over the last year together and grasped what a heel is.

Her position isn't solid, she consistently wants to move ahead, but now that she has the concept and the command it's getting better day by day. she doesn't have the finish or sit when I stop solid yet either.

I am not quite sure whether she knows the exact position I want, whether she just can't help moving out front, or if she knows it and does it anyway.

Another thing I have noticed, the prong collar left her frustrated, full of the overwhelming drive she usually directs at lunging to meet dogs or lunging after a squirrel. The drive is still there but she knows lunging hard hurts so she gets frustrated with it building up in her.

I have to be careful in how she is allowed to express that after a walk of a few miles, as it could turn into something I don't want like going from hyper friendly to dog aggressive. She will express it on my other dog or her favorite playmate in very intense physical play and dominant behaviors like humping and shoulder checks and body slams/wrestling that is too much for either of them to handle, even though her playmate is a 100+lb male lab and she's only 75lbs.

The e-collar does not seem to have that effect, especially with the freedom added with the flexi. Or she's just adapting and getting less driven and frustrated. She has also taken to pawing gobs of earth vigorously with all fours for sometimes 3-4 minutes at a time to burn it off since i have had her on a prong, which I do not discourage.

She has seemed much more calm after the few walks with the e-collar, than with the prong, even though I have used it a lot alternating between heel and free walking.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> If freedom is what Hope wants (as in the longer lead) use it as a reward for heel. when she is in heel position and looking at your face, if she takes 1 or 2 or 3 steps like that give her your release word and some freedom as a reward. If freedom to investigage is her desire, make it work for you as her motivator.


Just a note, this is basically one of the methods I have used last year this year to try to help her listening outside.

I tried keeping her leash short, and only let her go sniff around as a reward for a stop and sit command.

It did work, kind of, she started automatically stopping and sitting without even a command at her favorite sniffing spots..  without ever glancing at me.

I tried using squirrels as a reward in a couple of ways, but that was shown to be a bad idea very quickly.

Anyway,first full class with an e-collar on tonight, I think I'll leave Kaya at home tonight, and it could possibly be Hope's first class off leash, we'll see.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Hmm, if I can get her to look at my face..
> 
> Hope in the last few weeks has put the various things i have done over the last year together and grasped what a heel is.
> 
> ...


This tells me two things. First it sounds like you were not using the prong correctly and 2nd you were not giving her enough release reward to make the release work for you and make the prong work for you. It matters not the aversive (unless over the top and cruel).. it matters greatly the reward. 

If this dog finds the release motivating you need to find ways to use it as a reward. Food won't work but this will. 

You first develop a release word. This is separate from the other work. If she is doing what you want, reward her with your release word. Get the release word and the reward for release down so you can use it. 

As to looking at your face, start in the house. You got to get the behavior before you add distractions.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> This tells me two things. First it sounds like you were not using the prong correctly and 2nd you were not giving her enough release reward to make the release work for you and make the prong work for you. It matters not the aversive (unless over the top and cruel).. it matters greatly the reward.


I only used it as I would a regular collar. I gave no corrections with it, only allowed her to do it to herself. As for release reward, you are probably right, but without recall I am hard pressed to really release her anywhere.



> If this dog finds the release motivating you need to find ways to use it as a reward. Food won't work but this will.


She certainly seems to, and I have used it some. I use it now on walks alternating with heeling.



> You first develop a release word. This is separate from the other work. If she is doing what you want, reward her with your release word. Get the release word and the reward for release down so you can use it.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by separate from other work. She has a couple of release commands, ok, and free. As well as "go sniff" which she seems to understand completely. Other than squirrel and outside they are her favorite words.. 



> As to looking at your face, start in the house. You got to get the behavior before you add distractions.


In the house it's a stare fest. She looks intently every time I say her name, waiting to see what I am going to do. Heck every time move or make a sound. If she wants something, which is most of the time, usually to go out an check the back yard for squirrels, it's long stares with whining, groaning, etc.. Even in the back yard she gives attention. It's outside anywhere else when I turn into chopped liver.

I do spend time working on "look at me" inside, but not consistently enough i think, and even at class as I can get her focus there in a sit stay when she's waiting for a release.

The trainer has us sit/stay them for fairly long periods with us standing 10 feet away, walking around them, jumping, kneeling and standing, walking out of sight behind a building or van, it tends to get her attention of the separation anxiety type, as in are you leaving me here?

I should probably do much more of that on walks as well, sit/stay and recall, as her eyes are glued on me when I make her stay and walk away over all but the strongest distraction.

Time to get ready for class...


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

TX just as an aside you may enjoy...check out this little article by Suzanne Clothier...

http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/39/97/


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I was thinking in class, I have Hope's ball drive pretty built up now. If made it a point to get it out and play when she's getting all drive frustrated I might be able to direct all that drive into fetch and the ball.

Which might actually get me enough draw in time to get an attention heel.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> TX just as an aside you may enjoy...check out this little article by Suzanne Clothier...
> 
> http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/39/97/


Thanks, I did. I'm trying to work my way to being able to have good answers for her, if I can get her recall a little better and heel better I can give them. if she knew what rewards awaited she would be doing it perfect already.

Hope did pretty well tonight, considering we had 2 howling huskies and a rowdy talking mal in class, along with a pup that was going nuts all night.

The only time she lost focus was when the trainer's dog was working off leash and running a bit and she couldn't keep focus on her heel.

I'm not sure the ecollar is working right all the time, or whether Hope's fur is in the way sometimes. As well she gave me a few reactions that seemed like she thought the stim was location based, as in something in the spot she was at.

The trainer had both his old lab and his ACD at class tonight, he was going over different variations "look at me" attention training. His ACD is deaf, I had only seen it once before at an earlier class, and didn't even notice. It's trained with all hand signals and is quite reliable. But he did have to make some exaggerated arm movements to get it's attention once or twice after it was in a sit stay and he had been talking so long it was looking the other way.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

In response to your dog looking at you when you say her name.. use that. Use it. In the house, where food is likely to be more interesting, say her name and when she looks at you say, "YES!!" enthusiastically and toss her a bit of really good food. 

When you are outside in a place she is very familiar with, say her name and as she is turning her head to look at you say, "YES!!!!" and toss her food or give her release word. "go Sniff" may be counter productive at this point because it will so completely remove any focus from you to other things. 

What you do is this. Say her name and when she looks at you say, "YES!!" and immediately follow it with free or OK. 

I have a tug toy on a rope. Rope is about 4 feet long and the toy is at the end of it. My dog will chase it and pull on it when I drag it across the ground in front of her. Try to get your dog interested in playing with that as a reward too. I will have Atka playing with it and then say "give" (she releases the toy) and ask her to "sit!" (as an example). The instant her butt hits the ground I have the toy out and say, "Get it" (or what ever the word signal is to go and play). 

As you use the E collar you may find you need to increase the stim to continue to get results. It is one reason why I do not use this device as a regular tranining tool. Every time you increase the stim you are making the dog more dependent on receiving a stim to respond. If you don't care if the dog ALWAYS has to wear an E collar, then fine. However, if you want to do other work with the dog, then dispensing with the e collar is the object.. and needing to increase the stim does not fit with that program.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> IF you want to see Beautiful work.. here is Petra Ford and Tyler at Crufts. THIS is an Open (CDX) run. If you cannot view it, hit the arrow at the upper right of the screen to watch in a different window (glitch at my computer). At Crufts in addition to the remote sit and down, they also require a stand. the "Heel" work is magnificent. In the US (AKC) she keeps her elbow tight to her body (another video of her getting #1 at the invitational, same dog).
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAxWCGIiOo8


Don't mean to threadjack but this caught my eye because I have seen Tyler work more than once. AMAZING dog. From the looks of it, she uses both positive and negative methods. The prong as well as treats.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Thinking about it more, what I think I really need is some way to communicate to her that the better she recalls and heels, the more freedom she gets.

I think she sees it the other way around now.


----------



## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Thinking about it more, what I think I really need is some way to communicate to her that the better she recalls and heels, the more freedom she gets.
> 
> I think she sees it the other way around now.


I would use a combo of both a regular 6 foot leash and a long 30 or 50 foot leash both hooked to her collar. Do some heel work with her, when she is doing really well mark it and then unhook the 6 foot leash while giving your release word as well as praise. Give her 5 or 10 minutes with the extra line and then reel her in and put the 6 foot back on her (giving her either a treat or a game of tug as soon as you clip the 6 footer back on). Do some more heel work and reward her with taking off the 6 footer and giving her the length of the long line again.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Tonight was Kaya's turn at class.

She did very well with everything besides exercises where she had to heel past other dogs, in which case she always presses into my leg or tried to duck behind me to maintain as much distance from them as she could. I am very glad I decided to start taking them separately for a while.

First handling two very different dogs with different needs together is a problem, splitting my concentration is a problem, and trying to handle both dogs, two leashes and two remote radios while trying to concentrate on two dogs is short changing both dogs.

Tonight I decided I was pressing Kaya too hard to walk too close to other dogs, too far out of her comfort level. I think I'm going to start keeping a longer distance from the other dogs and try to get her comfortably heeling correctly 100% then start decreasing distance. Maybe even teach her attention heel as it might be harder for her to get stressed about other dogs if she isn't looking at them.

She is learning heel pretty well, and I have learned the best way to correct her position is verbally with a light "ah ah!' and a heel command if she starts forging or lagging, with praise in a high tone happy voice as soon as she gets the position right and lots of treats to keep her focus and keep her from fixating on what stresses her.

As for the e-collar, unlike Hope, I can't tell if she even feels it or not, I really see no different response than what I might expect from her. When she doesn't do as she's asked it's usually because she is so nervous and stressed she can't think, or she simply doesn't understand, not because she is distracted by something in the way Hope is. 

I know the collar is useless in the latter, and wonder if it is useful in the former at all.

Meanwhile Hope was quite upset when she was left behind, being very vocal when I shut the door behind me, jumping on the blinds in front, and went on a counter surfing binge while I was gone, which she hasn't done in a long time, and scarfed almost a whole loaf of bread I thought I put out of reach an puled some other stuff down... 

But she didn't get her walks today as I was having my yard stripped, a sprinkler system installed, and re sodded today and some tight deadlines at work and I had to shuffle moving between work and the house. She's always more of an issue if she hasn't had her walks.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> As for the e-collar, unlike Hope, I can't tell if she even feels it or not, I really see no different response than what I might expect from her. When she doesn't do as she's asked it's usually because she is so nervous and stressed she can't think, or she simply doesn't understand, not because she is distracted by something in the way Hope is.


One of the e-collar problems is that with long hair (shepherds or dogs with same type coat) the stim probes not reaching dog's neck. This can confuse issue cause sometimes trainers will up the stim and all of a sudden the stim is in right place and the higher stim really hits the dog. It's kind of a Murphy's law thing. Your trainer is probably on top of this, I just thought I would mention it to give e-collar rookies something to think about.



> First handling two very different dogs with different needs together is a problem, splitting my concentration is a problem, and trying to handle both dogs, two leashes and two remote radios while trying to concentrate on two dogs is short changing both dogs.


This is a no-brainer as trying to read one dog is hard. They use to have e-collars that have the 2 button/dog program, you can put collars on 2 dogs and run both at same time each dog having it's own button to press. Well a man's got to know his limitations and I know had I purchased a 2 button collar I would have been frying the wrong dog or possibly both dogs at same time due to my finger clumsiness. To say nothing of possible dog fights when frying one dog with another in close proximity.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, considering Hope's Home alone behavior now you know why I use a crate!!!! 

It looks like you are figuring thisout. what you need to do is make recall the best thing that could EVER happen to your dog. I got a point off for Atka barking at me in the ring when I left her for her recall. She does this sometimes.. wants me to hurry up and call her.. because I have made recall the bestest thing in the whole wide world for her. 

You cannot reinforce recall too much IMO.

*Miss Mutt:* probably should start a new thread on this subject alone but I know of NO OTCH dogs that have been trained with 100% positive reinforcement. Most top dogs like Tyler have had both.. emphasis on positive.. but have also been exposed to prongs and corrections.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Well, considering Hope's Home alone behavior now you know why I use a crate!!!!
> 
> It looks like you are figuring thisout. what you need to do is make recall the best thing that could EVER happen to your dog. I got a point off for Atka barking at me in the ring when I left her for her recall. She does this sometimes.. wants me to hurry up and call her.. because I have made recall the bestest thing in the whole wide world for her.
> 
> You cannot reinforce recall too much IMO.


That's not her typical home alone behavior, it's more of an I took Kaya out without her or instead of her behavior.

Reinforcement is something this trainer is all about, he is constantly nagging everyone to praise praise praise. That's his #1 correction for people. He drills it in than the dog doesn't know what right until you tell it, frequently.

That and that if your using the collar it has to be 100% consistent, and on every single recall command, and praised instantly every single time. 

That if you wait till the second recall command, or are inconsistent, you won't be able to abandon the collar as fast, and may not get results depending on what the dog perceives from your inconsistency. That the dog will learn that it only needs to come when when it feels the stim and not when it hears your command, or that it will learn to just ignore the stim.

The girls are certainly loving the brand new wall to wall grass out back, it got so hot and dry most of it died a while back when I didn't keep enough water on it and the yard was basically dirt with a few weeds here and there and looking pretty bad. They both already like to lay in it and roll in it.

Hope is paying for her indiscretion with a good bout of the squirts this morning. She'll be spending the day in the back yard.

As for the attention heel stuff, there is a pretty good thread about that on a GSD forum I also read about how to teach that, head straight back vs over the shoulder etc, and with a couple of links to sites with info I could post..


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I preach and preach consistancy in training. I read somewhere that the average person has SEVEN (sic) different words all meaning RECALL. And then they fuss because their dogs does not come when called. REALLY???? LOL 

Years ago when I was training a dog someone who had trained dogs told me something I never forgot. They said, "The dog is not supposed to think. They are to do what they have been asked to do on the first command and then keep doing that thing until they are released or given another command.."

At first I thought, "How awful! This is an intelligent creature and you don't want them to THINK??" However, what the person meant was not that the dog cannot think (as in is not allowed to think) but the dog is not to dream up something else to do while under a command. 

IOW's if you have your dog in a sit/stay it means SIT and STAY until the dog dies, you return and give another command or you return and release the dog. It does not mean sit until the dog decides to lie down, or stay until it has been over a minute.. it means to do this w/o thought until you are done asking for it. Inconsistancy and lack of follow through lead to dogs who ignore command cues. 

Also.. praise is fine.. and I use it.. but food WITH praise or TOYS with priase or Being allowed some freedome WITH praise is much much better. Dogs do not do things to please us. Dogs do things because those things have been reinforced with things dogs like. No one works for free. Dogs are pretty much on board with that!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I had a long walk with Hope this morning, ecollar and flexi, and I have to say again how really nice it was.

Hope on the flexi, taking as much as she wanted. 

Every time she hit the end she circles back to me. (From long line prong work)

Every time I called her and said heel when a car was approaching she was at my side (good recall from E-collar)

And every time I would praise and reward, ending in a a stop and a reward (dried liver) for a good stop and sit at my side.

Then a release "free" command so she could roam in a 25 circle around me again.

Hope nailed the counter again, after her walk, when I took Kaya out without her. This time she got no reward just a bucket on the floor. I'm going to totally clear the decks in the kitchen, and start leaving her with a half a bully stick to chew on and see if that helps.

As close to having her off leash and responding well as I have ever had, and I can see the offleash relationship I want forming, and it's nice.

It's like all the work in various methods for attention, not pulling, heeling, and such is all coming together into a single form.

She heeled pretty nicely past two dogs, with the flexi unlocked and freewheeling, as well as a couple of squirrels when asked. I had to repeat the heel command and use the button every time her attention went away from me, but she did it! She also got into heel position quickly before passing cars got close every time.

Kaya is bit behind her, I'm still not sure if she "gets it" as far as both position of heel and that it means stay there until released, but if she doesn't she's getting close. And I still see no effect from the collar. Then again her setting is so low it was like a fly landing on my neck.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Not sure why you don't crate Hope when you take Kaya out? Well, whatever. You have been taught that dogs are opportunists and they fully understand food rewards. Hope got on the counter and was instantly rewarded by finding something to eat. This has nothing to do with her being upset about you not taking her (she may have ALSO been upset but trust me.. counter surfing has nothing to do with it other than you were not there to prevent counter surfing). 

so, today she was at the counter again.. and you can bet that for the rest of this dog's LIFE you will not be able to leave anything on the counter or she will be at it.

now.. what were you saying about her not responding well to food? 

BTW in the heel work? If she comes back to side you are using food AND the freedom as reward. Use one *or* the other, not both. IOW's if "free" is a reward use that one time or three times and liver another time w/o "free" as a reward. 

Teaching a dog to heel consistantly and with perfection is a long process. Dogs prefer a linear procession on a walk with others.. not walking abreast of each other as in the "heel" position. Heel is unnatural to dogs, but useful to us!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Not sure why you don't crate Hope when you take Kaya out? Well, whatever. You have been taught that dogs are opportunists and they fully understand food rewards. Hope got on the counter and was instantly rewarded by finding something to eat. This has nothing to do with her being upset about you not taking her (she may have ALSO been upset but trust me.. counter surfing has nothing to do with it other than you were not there to prevent counter surfing).
> 
> so, today she was at the counter again.. and you can bet that for the rest of this dog's LIFE you will not be able to leave anything on the counter or she will be at it.
> 
> now.. what were you saying about her not responding well to food?


Ohh yeah the first thing she ever did in my kitchen the day I brought her home was go straight up on the counters.

I kept them clear for a long time and it started exctincting, and she hasn't surfed for quite some time even when I left something where she could reach it. I'll just go back to clearing the decks and being more careful about keeping it that way, not a bad habit for me to drill into myself permanently anyway.

As to responding to food, inside she will sit and down if there's food reward like her butt is on fire. Very food motivated or ball motivated as well these days.

Outside if she was distracted, which was 99% of the time, I could shove it in her mouth and she would spit it out without ever breaking her focus.

Or say I wanted to lure her with a piece of steak to heel, she gives it about 1/2 second and if she doesn't get the food, if it's not immediately given, she just ignores it and goes back to the nearest distraction.

Now that I can get her focus better I am trying to reward that with food as well, and rewarding eye contact under distraction outside. The classes with all the other dogs, kids running around, squirrels in the distance and time to work in that environment for an hour or so at a time is helping that a lot. Which is why I chose this all outdoor class to start with.



> BTW in the heel work? If she comes back to side you are using food AND the freedom as reward. Use one *or* the other, not both. IOW's if "free" is a reward use that one time or three times and liver another time w/o "free" as a reward.
> 
> Teaching a dog to heel consistantly and with perfection is a long process. Dogs prefer a linear procession on a walk with others.. not walking abreast of each other as in the "heel" position. Heel is unnatural to dogs, but useful to us!


Ok, I'll try mixing it up and see what happens.

I have been repeating luring them into a finish in several short sessions a day inside the house to get it drilled in and trying to fade the luring and arm sweep gesture out, and giving them a treat when they finish correctly, so I was kind of stopping while out on a walk and heeling, they get a lot of verbal praise whenever in the right position, and then if they stay in position and sit when I stop without having to be told to sit I give a treat. Then either I give a free, or heel a little bit more and then free.

I feel it's all coming together, I see daily progress now with both of them.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Another week of training gone by with the ecollar.

I have had one bad experience with the ecollars. Very important to memorize and double check all the setting on it.

I didn't and somehow the setting got changed, bumped it, something, and hope got a couple of high strength zaps.

She properly connected them with the commands given at the time, and it took me a few days of working with her to undo the negative effect it had on her. Basically using the collar as normal, guiding her though sit and down, and rewarding her and praising even more until she realized the big zap wasn't going to happen again when I said those words.

Again I am very lucky she is a very resilient dog.

Anyway, other than that everything is still exceeding my expectations with Hope. She minds a lot better, and is getting tons more praise and rewards than she ever has. Between working on her walks and the classes practicing under lots of distraction she's improving rapidly, mainly in her self control over her drives.

I feel it won't be long before she will reliably heel past a cat or squirrel, or recall even if she's in chase. In fact I seem to sense a habit forming with her that when she sees one, and drops into that cat like smooth stalk she does where her head and body just seem to glide/float, she is also automatically going into a heel, though always with a hard eye focused on the prey. 

I find it very interesting and if this become her default when she sees prey, I might actually begin rewarding her with a chase from time to time.

As for Kaya, I don't see the collar helping her so much, but the level is so low I am still not sure she even feels it usually. She is getting her heeling together, with lots of repetition of luring her through a finish, and lots of practice on walks. She doesn't pick things up as fast as Hope, and hs a lot of trouble associating voice cue vs a hand signal with a behavior, and loses her focus when she's stressed, or the occasional times she gets distracted.

Kinda strange, I give her a "yes" marker and a good girl whenever she is in the correct position in a heel, but her reaction to the praise is to get happy, wag her tail and start forging ahead.

My trainer believes learning a solid "finish" is very important in a dog learning to heel when training it off leash, and says to practice it every morning before feeding, and every evening before feeding with some of the dogs kibble. That it gives the dog a good foundation for the correct position.

I have been doing this for weeks, and I am just now getting them to the point that I have faded the luring through the finish down to just snapping my fingers by my side and they get it right after a few tries, marked with a yes!, a good girl and a chunk of freeze dried liver when their butts are about to hit the floor in the right place. Hope heeling on the right, Kaya on the left.

We did a rally course at class Saturday, I had Kaya with me and she did very very well. She generally does poorly in class due to being stressed out by so many other dogs, and having so many in close proximity. She is getting a little better about that but not a lot. On the rally course with no dogs close she was rather awesome at it for a rescue with about 4 months of training.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> One of the e-collar problems is that with long hair (shepherds or dogs with same type coat) the stim probes not reaching dog's neck. This can confuse issue cause sometimes trainers will up the stim and all of a sudden the stim is in right place and the higher stim really hits the dog. It's kind of a Murphy's law thing. Your trainer is probably on top of this, I just thought I would mention it to give e-collar rookies something to think about


Yes I asked him about this, as I think it does happen to both my girls at times. I usually just reorient the collar a bit to make sure.

He will use a little bit longer contact probes that are available for this collar if it is a real problem.


I have also solved Hopes behavior issue when I take Kaya out without her. I simply toss her a piece of bully stick or something, and she doesn't even watch us leave, much less claw the door and let out a howl like she was doing.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Yes I asked him about this, as I think it does happen to both my girls at times. I usually just reorient the collar a bit to make sure.
> 
> He will use a little bit longer contact probes that are available for this collar if it is a real problem.
> 
> ...


Yes the difficult part is the timing of corrections and if you hit button and nothing happens because of a furball in the way. It's a natural tendency to hit button again and the dog could be doing something totally different by the time the 2nd button/stim hits him/her because now the furball has slipped to the side of probe.

Most of the time it's not a big deal, it takes a while to learn not to hit the button a 2nd time and just let dog get away with whatever dog is doing wrong. Getting away with it is something dog has done before but frying him for something that was not intended can cause problems. 

One thought to keep in mind is the collar work that I did was with collars turned all the way up. I wanted to be careful.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Yes the difficult part is the timing of corrections and if you hit button and nothing happens because of a furball in the way. It's a natural tendency to hit button again and the dog could be doing something totally different by the time the 2nd button/stim hits him/her because now the furball has slipped to the side of probe.
> 
> Most of the time it's not a big deal, it takes a while to learn not to hit the button a 2nd time and just let dog get away with whatever dog is doing wrong. Getting away with it is something dog has done before but frying him for something that was not intended can cause problems.
> 
> One thought to keep in mind is the collar work that I did was with collars turned all the way up. I wanted to be careful.


Yeah after seeing Hope get a full blast, it's one heck of a correction. The reaction is what I would expect if had hauled off and hit her hard.

I would think it would be a bit different using it the way I am, it is always simultaneous with a command, like come or heel or the dogs name to get their attention, with the lowest possible stim in a very short timed pulse of a few milliseconds rather than a correction for doing something wrong.

I can see how a full blast would make dog not want to after a snake or squirrel or cat though real fast.

Hope connected it with the sit and down commands, and reacted badly collar or no collar for a while, interestingly she had no bad reaction if I used just a hand signal, or some random word along with the hand signal. It was connected to the voice commands only, which I guess is what the purpose is.

With the method he has me using, say she's going after a squirrel, I would call her and hit the button at the same time and praise the second she turns to me and all the way to me.

In a way I feel bad as I'm stealing away the most rewarding thing in her life from what I can see, chasing critters, but it has to be done. I just have to work hard to replace that with something as fun as I can for her.


----------



## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Why is the stim being used simultaneously with a command rather than after a command that is being ignored?


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> Why is the stim being used simultaneously with a command rather than after a command that is being ignored?


Basically as a tap on the shoulder to break focus on whatever is distracting the dog so it can hear you an focus on you when you give the command.

It's a very light stim, no more than is needed. I tried it on my own neck and it really was about like a touch, just enough to get attention.

The trainer sets it up that way, he uses a long line and lets the dog wander off after a distraction and turns it up a little at a time until it's just enough to get the dogs attention.

And he also beats it into you to use it 100% consistently, and you have to always praise the correct response 100% or it will not have the desired effect, or might have to be turned up or used forever etc. that used consistently this way, the dog becomes conditioned to respond to your commands even when distracted without consciously thinking about it first and the collar can be discontinued in time.

That's the gist of what I got from it anyway. It certainly made very quick improvements to Hope's recall and I now get her attention pretty much every time.


----------



## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

So there's no way for a dog to avoid stimulation? (No attitude here, I am just trying to understand the method.) 

To Clarify, you press the button at the same moment you give a command? Not a second AFTER if your dog blows you off?

Thanks for your patience!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> So there's no way for a dog to avoid stimulation? (No attitude here, I am just trying to understand the method.)


Exactly, no way to avoid it.



> To Clarify, you press the button at the same moment you give a command? Not a second AFTER if your dog blows you off?
> 
> Thanks for your patience!


Yes the exact same time. It's not meant to be an aversive, or punishment or a consequence to a behavior which is why it uses the lowest setting that the dog will feel and respond to. More to add a physical touch to the command.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

So it's like R-?
Is there not a concern about it becoming part of the cue itself? 
I guess that's why the praise and reward come to be so important, to condition the response itself, rather than have the stim become part of the cue..
(just babbling to myself here..lol)


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Cracker said:


> So it's like R-?
> Is there not a concern about it becoming part of the cue itself?
> I guess that's why the praise and reward come to be so important, to condition the response itself, rather than have the stim become part of the cue..
> (just babbling to myself here..lol)


I believe the cue is the cue, and the cessation of stim is the incentive for obedience to it. Obeying the command is the means to turn off the stim.

........If I understand correctly.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> So it's like R-?
> Is there not a concern about it becoming part of the cue itself?
> I guess that's why the praise and reward come to be so important, to condition the response itself, rather than have the stim become part of the cue..
> (just babbling to myself here..lol)


Well the understanding I have is that it is supposed to become part of the cue itself, that the dog is supposed to know it is coming from you as part of the cue.

As if you always reached out with an invisible hand and touched the dog as you gave the voice cue.

And just classical conditioning that once the response is conditioned enough, the touch can be left out and only voice cue remains but the response will continue if it was well conditioned enough and the reward remains.

I think that's why he harps on being so consistent, everywhere, all the time, always use the button for the commands. And always praise and reinforce the response every single time.

It's not like the dogs are showing any discomfort, like scratching, twitching or anything. As I said, I can put it on my neck and push the button all day.

When Hope got the accidental full stim when I somehow changed the settings, she yelped, it was most definitely the strongest aversive she has ever received from me, and I hate that it happened as it was the equivalent of saying sit and smacking her quite hard at the same time and she took it that way. It certainly will not happen again.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I believe the cue is the cue, and the cessation of stim is the incentive for obedience to it. Obeying the command is the means to turn off the stim.
> 
> ........If I understand correctly.


Not at all. I guess I haven't been clear enough. The collar works like this...

When I press the button it gives an instantaneous stim that only lasts a tiny fraction of a second. Just a few thousandths of a second long and that's it.

I can hold my thumb on it all day, and it will only give one pulse a few thousandths of a second long. It's a programmed thing in the controller.

Each press works that way. Each press give one single tiny very short stim.

So it is basically like a touch. Simply to break focus and get attention, kinda like you might tap someone on the shoulder who is preoccupied by something else like talking to another person or deeply focused on something to get their attention.

Its not a method I have heard of before.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Its not a method I have heard of before.


Me neither.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Nevertheless it seems to be quite effective at getting Hope's attention, regardless of the distraction, as it gets her attention she complies well and is then rewarded to reinforce it. I assume rewarding the behavior well enough will condition it just as with any other method does.

It remains to be seen how long I'll have to use it, or whether I might have to raise the level over time. So far it doesn't look I will have to raise it.

When I can stop using it, and how well the conditioning will last is the real question. I won't know that for some time yet. I assume I would fade the stim just like fading a lure or such, but that part isn't so clear yet.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Keep the info coming. Like I said, you cannot use these collars on AKC show gounds and not at my dog club. You cannot have a prong collar on AKC show grounds. 

The main interest here is to see when you can cease to use the stim and the e collar. 

As for taking away the thing Hope finds most fun in the world (chasing stuff) you are NOT taking it away.. you are REPLACING it making the work you ASK her to do.. her Job... be the Most Fun. 

Training is really that. Taking the drive and energy a dog has for doing something they love to do an redirecting it on to the work you require.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Keep the info coming. Like I said, you cannot use these collars on AKC show gounds and not at my dog club. You cannot have a prong collar on AKC show grounds.
> 
> The main interest here is to see when you can cease to use the stim and the e collar.


The device can be effectively faded out in traditional e-collar training, and I can't see why that wouldn't be true for this style as well. Even if this trainer didn't know how to do it, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. Retriever trials (at the highest levels) are run without any collar on the dogs.

As per AKC rules:


> (a) In stakes carrying championship points, dogs
> shall be brought to the line and taken from the line off
> leash and without collar and remain without collar
> while under judgment; in these stakes collars and
> ...


E-collars are not a substitute for actual training, they just make the actual training faster and easier. Kinda like machine sewing vs. needle and thread. Buying a Singer doesn't make you a seamstress/tailor any more than buying an e-collar makes you a dog trainer.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Training is really that. Taking the drive and energy a dog has for doing something they love to do an redirecting it on to the work you require.


I agree, but it's so much easier with a pup where you get a chance to direct that drive as it develops, rather than redirecting a strong and well developed drive in an adult to something else.

I'm still seeing the fallout of the mistaken high level stim on Hope, not as much but it's still there a bit especially when I give a down command.

Today was Kaya's favorite walk day, trash day. You can sure tell she was on the streets a while. Gotta sniff every bag..  A squirrel could run 4-5 feet in front of her, and barely get a glance, and a couple did today.

And what a screwy little girl she is. She will go phobic and shivering over a storm, a distant gunshot, even a clicker and I sometimes I can't even tell what has her quivering and shivering and wanting to crawl in my lap. But she walks past a garbage truck, air brakes blasting, big loud diesel etc., without batting an eye.

I still can't tell if she is feeling the thing at all. I'm going to ask for a session alone with the trainer for an hour and see if I can get this worked out.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

BTW I shot some video this morning while out on a walk, it may not be good trying to handle a flexi, a camera and a radio at once.

I was thinking I would post up a vid of where I started when I decided to get serious on this outdoor behavior thing, and one of this morning for contrast.

I'll have try at it tonight.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

TxRider said:


> I agree, but it's so much easier with a pup where you get a chance to direct that drive as it develops, rather than redirecting a strong and well developed drive in an adult to something else.
> 
> I'm still seeing the fallout of the mistaken high level stim on Hope, not as much but it's still there a bit especially when I give a down command.
> 
> ...


I'm glad it's working out. I have used an e-collar before (the owner of the dog, a field lab, showed me how to use it and let me try it out). It was a good experience. The dog wasn't freaked out at the sight of the e-collar, and the stim made him look towards us, like you described a tap on the shoulder. He wasn't screaming out in pain if the stim button was pushed, he wasn't flipping into the air and snarling at the collar. It worked well for the man and what he needed out of his dog (complete focus in the field, so the dog didn't run off or get shot by another hunter, etc). Both the man and the dog were fluent in how the collar worked, and didn't just buy a shock collar and slap it on the dog, and push the button when the dog did something he didn't like. I've seen complete and utter morons try e-collars on their dogs, with no idea what they're doing, and yes...the dogs DID scream, flip, or try to bite at the collar. 
I hope it continues to work out for you!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well I have a little video to share.

First is Kaya, this is about 6 weeks after I got her, polishing up teaching her name, rewarding for attention as soon as her head starts turning toward me, and for responding to her new name and proofing sit in new locations. She is pretty attentive, pretty easy to teach. She is getting a little nervous at the end because we were approaching a busier street and she is scared of cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veTlY_Mmwsk

For contrast here's Hope last Nov. about the same time after a whole lot of work on not pulling, lunging, and trying to gain better attention for the better part of a year.

Here she clearly knows what I want, just a simple sit. But she complains, visibly protests basically arguing with me, then she tries just ignoring me, and finally complies but only after popping the leash a few times and making it clear that she is going to sit one way or another. What she wants is to keep going up the road to investigate another dog a block away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucSqI7kWy2U


And here is where I am at now with her, with 4-5 months of reward training, prong collar work, heel training and and a couple of weeks on the e-collar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD28N3xIuog

No current video of Kaya, maybe tomorrow.

EDIT: Just thought I would add, I was breaking the rules and not using the collar with every command while shooting the clips I used. Not enough hands for camera flexi, collar remote etc. 

Though I did use the collar on about half of the commands. Can you tell which commands included a collar stim, and which didn't?


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I was watching Kaya today as we walked, and I'm getting rather puzzled.

I know the collar is working, if I watch very closely I know she feels it. However she doesn't respond to it like Hope does.

If she gets distracted sniffing something, calling her and hitting the button just does nothing and does not break her focus at all, but it does seem ok for things like sitting. She is such an odd little dog in so many ways.

On the other hand, the collar has a tone function. It emits a soft little beep I can't even hear when outside, but just trying it out for a few minutes seems more effective then the shock, it does get her attention.

I'm going to have to have a private session with my trainer for her I think and see if I want to continue on the way I have been, or change tactics, or just forget the collar altogether for her. She really has no big problem with attention like Hope does, and doesn't have the very strong drives and complusiness Hope does either.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> Here she clearly knows what I want, just a simple sit. But she complains, visibly protests basically arguing with me, then she tries just ignoring me, and finally complies but only after popping the leash a few times and making it clear that she is going to sit one way or another. What she wants is to keep going up the road to investigate another dog a block away.


I have to disagree here. From what I'm seeing, she has no clue what you want. Not only that, she is over threshold. Learning can't happen when over threshold. She was set up to fail in that scenario, and got punished for it. That's a handler error, not a dog error. 



> If she gets distracted sniffing something, calling her and hitting the button just does nothing and does not break her focus at all, but it does seem ok for things like sitting. She is such an odd little dog in so many ways.


I have to say it sounds like you skipped the foundation training of e-collars, or at least rushed through it. That should not happen unless the dog is over threshold. If it is happening when a dog is under threshold, you skipped about 20 levels of training before setting her up to fail.

If she is distracted sniffing something, that's a environmental issue. You have to start easy before adding in distractions. You have to generalize it in a hundred low distraction areas before adding in minor distractions. If you can't get her attention when she's distracted then she's been set up to fail by putting her too far head in training.



> E-collars are not a substitute for actual training, they just make the actual training faster and easier. Kinda like machine sewing vs. needle and thread. Buying a Singer doesn't make you a seamstress/tailor any more than buying an e-collar makes you a dog trainer.


I don't agree it's faster. Easier maybe, in the wrong senses. It is exactly the same as clicker training, in the opposite direction.



> Nevertheless it seems to be quite effective at getting Hope's attention, regardless of the distraction, as it gets her attention she complies well and is then rewarded to reinforce it. I assume rewarding the behavior well enough will condition it just as with any other method does.


It might work, eventually. This sounds very confusing for the dog. Hopefully she will understand that she is getting rewarded for turning her head towards you when you call her, rather than when you stim her. If she thinks she's being rewarded for responding to the stim, you're going to be very frustrated.

All that said, the recurring theme I see in this thread is being set up to fail. You talk about so many failures that I'm wondering why you are consistently putting the dogs in a position to be stimmed.

When I taught Kobe the recall with the e-collar, he had a 10/10 response rate in an empty room in my house, with the door closed. Then we added a minor distraction, and got a 10/10 cold start for a week. Then we eventually moved to the backyard with a 10' leash. Then a 20' leash, 30' leash, 40' leash, and eventually a 50' leash. 

Then we moved into the immediate front of my house and repeated the whole process over with a 10' leash. If he ever got less than 8/10 response rate, we took a step back in the training. It was months before we ever made it to the sidewalk. More months before we made it to the entrance of the hiking spot we go to. He had to be perfect for days before we took a step up. If he was not responding to the stim, we took a step back. Any failures, confusion, a step back.

I'm not entirely sure why you are skipping the foundation training. You've used the collar for barely two weeks, and you are already using it on walks in highly distracting areas. That makes very little sense to me.

And the shock being 1/1000th of a second makes little sense to me too. That is not -R because -R training uses a continuous shock until the dog complies and they get reinforced by the removal of the aversive. It is not P+ because you give it at the same time as the cue. Very, very confusing.

Honestly I would find a different e-collar trainer.

EDIT: Actually, I would find a +R clicker trainer first. If you went through +R training the way you are doing this e-collar training, it would explain a terribly lot about why you are having a hard time with your dogs.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> I have to disagree here. From what I'm seeing, she has no clue what you want. Not only that, she is over threshold. Learning can't happen when over threshold. She was set up to fail in that scenario, and got punished for it. That's a handler error, not a dog error.


She knew sit, very well, had done it thousands of times in thousands of places, at least a few dozen times right there in that part of the block, she's walked that street at least 3-400 times and done sit stays all down it, recalls, sits, downs, she knew exactly what I wanted, her to sit, butt on ground..

She knew exactly what I was asking her to do and I have absolutely zero doubt about it whatsoever, none.

Over threshold? Yeah, I suppose she was. There was a dog about ten houses up the road, she wanted to go there and get to it, and she wanted to go there now.

But she wasn't enough over threshold to turn to me, whine in protest, and go back to focusing on her distraction.

She has been down this street hundreds of times, twice a day for almost a year, she has sat probably about thousand times, many times right there. She does not want to sit, because that might mean stay, or down, or something else involving training that could follow that sit that does not invlove getting up the road to the other dog where she wants to be.

She avoids first, then she circles back, stands and looks at me. She does that because months earlier she would just try to physically drag me up the road, she has started training since then that I turn into a tree when she drags, and the way to get me to move forward is to turn to me, and give me eye contact and get off the end of the leash. That circling back to give me attention, is the way to get me to move forward.

The whine, and then turning to me was her way of doing that.. "See I came back and gave you attention, now lets go!".. She stood up, to avoid sitting to do it, with a whine for emphasis.

Hope is no dummy, she is a very smart girl. She was negotiating.



> I have to say it sounds like you skipped the foundation training of e-collars, or at least rushed through it. That should not happen unless the dog is over threshold. If it is happening when a dog is under threshold, you skipped about 20 levels of training before setting her up to fail.
> 
> If she is distracted sniffing something, that's a environmental issue. You have to start easy before adding in distractions. You have to generalize it in a hundred low distraction areas before adding in minor distractions. If you can't get her attention when she's distracted then she's been set up to fail by putting her too far head in training.


That's part of the problem, Kaya is almost never distracted. It is hard work to get her distracted on something. It doesn't happen in the house period. It also doesn't happen in the yard. Ever.

In fact it's difficult to get her to go more then ten feet away from me on a walk usually or not look up at me every minute. 

She will not drag a cotton long line, if she is at the far end of one she will not recall because she will not drag the leash to get to me, she shuts down instead. If she is in a stay at the end of one she will recall about 6 feet, looking back at the leash like it's going to get her, freeze, and shut down if I keep calling her.

She dislikes even pulling out a flexi and won't usually, she shows obvious dislike for even dragging a light 6ft nylon leash to recall to me.

The only time she will ever hit the end of a 6ft leash on a walk usually is when I walk real slow, and she happens to get to sniffing something and get interested and stay sniffing it until the leash catches her. Then she gets distracted and doesn't look when I say her name if I stop and try to call her instead of letting the leash catch her.

So my method is, walk slow, encourage her over and over to actually go from my side, which takes blocks, encourage her to sniff, and then "maybe" she will get distracted enough that I have an opportunity to get 6 feet away and call her from it.

I can't clicker train her, as she shuts down and goes phobic at the sound of a clicker.

She's an odd little dog. She has a small range of state of mind she can learn in. Say a scale of 1-5, if she's in 1-2 she's too stressed and anxious to learn, and 4-5 she's too excited to learn, you have to keep her right at 3, and just a slight change in tone of voice can send her to 4, or something insigificant as the weight of a nylon leash or some obscure sound can send her to 2 and she can't learn. if she's in 1 or 5 she can't even think and function. My big goal for her is widen the range she's comfortable in to 2-4 instead of just 3... 



> It might work, eventually. This sounds very confusing for the dog. Hopefully she will understand that she is getting rewarded for turning her head towards you when you call her, rather than when you stim her. If she thinks she's being rewarded for responding to the stim, you're going to be very frustrated.


It doesn't seem confusing to Hope at all. She is advancing more rapidly then I ever thought she would. In the last video, some recall/heel commands used a stim, some didn't, response is identical.



> All that said, the recurring theme I see in this thread is being set up to fail. You talk about so many failures that I'm wondering why you are consistently putting the dogs in a position to be stimmed.


The method I am being trained to use is a stim with every single command, and only with a command. I fail to understand how I could possibly not put a dog in a position to hear a command and therefore be stimmed?



> When I taught Kobe the recall with the e-collar, he had a 10/10 response rate in an empty room in my house, with the door closed. Then we added a minor distraction, and got a 10/10 cold start for a week. Then we eventually moved to the backyard with a 10' leash. Then a 20' leash, 30' leash, 40' leash, and eventually a 50' leash.
> 
> Then we moved into the immediate front of my house and repeated the whole process over with a 10' leash. If he ever got less than 8/10 response rate, we took a step back in the training. It was months before we ever made it to the sidewalk. More months before we made it to the entrance of the hiking spot we go to. He had to be perfect for days before we took a step up. If he was not responding to the stim, we took a step back. Any failures, confusion, a step back.


Hope is 9/10 right now, with possible exception of a prey item within a few feet, and she's closing on on that now.



> I'm not entirely sure why you are skipping the foundation training. You've used the collar for barely two weeks, and you are already using it on walks in highly distracting areas. That makes very little sense to me.


I have no less distracting areas to use. Where would I go?

There are no issues in my house, she's already 100% there and has been for a long time. I walk out into my back yard and 3 squirrels dash to the trees and start barking from the fence. Pretty much always. 

Where exactly could I go that's less distracting than a quiet old treelined subdivision street she has walked down roughly 600 times before?



> And the shock being 1/1000th of a second makes little sense to me too. That is not -R because -R training uses a continuous shock until the dog complies and they get reinforced by the removal of the aversive. It is not P+ because you give it at the same time as the cue. Very, very confusing.
> 
> Honestly I would find a different e-collar trainer.
> 
> EDIT: Actually, I would find a +R clicker trainer first. If you went through +R training the way you are doing this e-collar training, it would explain a terribly lot about why you are having a hard time with your dogs.


It's not -R or P+ that I can see. 

Say your SO is watching a TV show, favorite one, and your talking and they are so focused on the TV show they don't hear you and you walk over and tap them on the shoulder to get them to break focus on the TV and look at you so they can listen to you. Is that P+? R-?

Like I said, Hope is having no failures. "I" had a single failure on the collar setting once, but she's is responding very well and better every day. Basically the collar has been quite a nice thing with her. It's basically awesome progress from her in my book. 

Kaya is basically no change, no effect from the collar one way or the other. The basic positive reinforcement is working fine though, the collar doesn't seem to have any effect on her one way or the other. At least not at this low setting, not using this method.

Kaya doesn't fail, she is an absolute pleasure to walk, is learning at her pace, and is a great little dog as long as I watch her stress threshold, and don't talk too high pitched and praise too much and get her too excited.

As for a clicker, can't use one around Kaya. She reacts to one just as she does a thunderstorm or a gun shot. Quivering in a corner or trying to squeeze up your pant leg.

But if Kaya was my only dog, I wouldn't even have a trainer or be in a class. She's just along because Hope needed it.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

TxRider said:


> But she wasn't enough over threshold to turn to me, whine in protest, and go back to focusing on her distraction.


I don't really understand how you're defining over threshold. That is exactly a behavior a dog that's over threshold would do. You could hit her with a sledgehammer at that point, and maybe she will eventually comply, but she will not learn (shut down, or escalate yes, but not learn). The best way to deal with that situation is management. Remove her from the situation (i.e. walk away from the dog) because it is a situation she is not prepared for yet.




> That's part of the problem, Kaya is almost never distracted. It is hard work to get her distracted on something. It doesn't happen in the house period. It also doesn't happen in the yard. Ever.
> 
> In fact it's difficult to get her to go more then ten feet away from me on a walk usually or not look up at me every minute.
> 
> ...


That's another case of skipping foundation training. If she is worried about dragging the leash, that's what you need to work on first. Jumping forward to recall is counterproductive and setting up to fail. First, desensitize the dog to the leash, then work on recalls.



> I can't clicker train her, as she shuts down and goes phobic at the sound of a clicker.


Clicker doesn't need to mean the little click box. It can be your voice (yes!), a hand snap, clicking your tongue, a "tsk" sound, and so on. If she's scared of the click, then use something she's not scared of that makes a consistent sound.



> She's an odd little dog. She has a small range of state of mind she can learn in. Say a scale of 1-5, if she's in 1-2 she's too stressed and anxious to learn, and 4-5 she's too excited to learn, you have to keep her right at 3, and just a slight change in tone of voice can send her to 4, or something insigificant as the weight of a nylon leash or some obscure sound can send her to 2 and she can't learn. if she's in 1 or 5 she can't even think and function. My big goal for her is widen the range she's comfortable in to 2-4 instead of just 3...


Yeah, a lot of dogs are like that. You may want to look into Leslie Devitt's Control Unleashed. It is basically all about raising a dog's threshold, or lowering a dog's threshold. It sounds like you need both!




> It doesn't seem confusing to Hope at all. She is advancing more rapidly then I ever thought she would.


I realize that a lot of times it can be smooth sailing. But the faster you advance, the harder the fall. Once a stumbling block is hit, you end up having to take 20 steps backwards instead of just one. Think of it like basketball practice. To be good at it, you practice dribbling all the time, for years. You never stop practicing dribbling. It's not hard, and you can just jump to three pointers pretty easily. But add in a competitor (a distraction) and you get your first stumble. You've hardly practiced dribbling, so the person keeps stealing the ball. You don't have a good enough foundation to succeed. Then you have to forget all about point scoring, and take a huge step back and work on the foundations again for a long time before you can attempt the distraction.

Going completely overboard in foundations is WAY better than skipping it or going through it too fast. That is a mistake I see a LOT of puppy and dog trainers make. You just simply cannot practice the basics enough.




> The method I am being trained to use is a stim with every single command. I fail to understand how I could possibly not put a dog in a position to hear a command and therefore be stimmed?


That seems really bizarre to me. I would honestly *really* recommend a new trainer. A lot of people in the training world have some strange ideas about dog training. Touch or not, the dog is not learning anything from the stim, which renders it pointless. You might as well work on "Look at me!" exercises instead and eliminate the e-collar altogether if that's how the training is done. Since it's neither +P nor -R, no learning is happening.



I don't really have any comments on the rest because it seems to contradict things I read in this thread, but I may simply not understand the context.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> I don't really understand how you're defining over threshold. That is exactly a behavior a dog that's over threshold would do. You could hit her with a sledgehammer at that point, and maybe she will eventually comply, but she will not learn (shut down, or escalate yes, but not learn). The best way to deal with that situation is management. Remove her from the situation (i.e. walk away from the dog) because it is a situation she is not prepared for yet.


Ok I'll explain how I define it, in context of this situation.

Not knowing sit is one thing, you can't blame a dog for that.

Knowing and not sitting because she is overwhelmed with a distraction and cannot think, cannot rip her mind loose from intense focus on an object and blind instinct takes over is one thing. 

But knowing how to sit, and being under threshold enough to think what to do, to actively make a decision to turn away from the distraction of her own choice, to engage in social dialog with me for a distinct purpose, and turn back to the distraction and ignore me is not over threshold in my book.

She could think and she did, she could learn as well, she could make rational decisions and she did just that, she clearly attempted to convince me to do something she wanted, rather than do as I asked. She made a choice.

She didn't need a sledgehammer, a couple of pops on the leash did perfectly well. Just standing there long enough would have as well.

To me over threshold would be a state at where she was beyond rational thought, beyond what she could control. 

When she can decide to turn from the distraction on her own, and execute a learned behavior to attempt to get me to do something she wants me to do, I do not call it over threshold. It requires ability to think and reason, and learning can occur in that state.

As for removing her and being prepared and foundation work...

Hope is a pretty high drive, pretty high energy working line GSD, when I got her for all I can tell she had never seen the outside world before.

Should I have never walked her before getting her well behaved, never left my yard until she was 100% focused and perfect in my yard even if it took a year? Maybe so, maybe I made a mistake.

I walked her 2-3 miles around the neighborhood before ever taking her into my house, I walked her twice a day most every day since. She could and would do a lot more walking. A high energy high drive GSD cooped up in a house without getting any good excercise is a good way to end up with a destructive screwed up dog finding her own bad ways to spend that drive and energy. At least that is the assumption I was working under.


Was it a mistake? Maybe. I worked with her inside, she's great there, and have been working with her outside for a year, at varying degrees of distraction as we walk with slow improvement. If you want to see her actually go over threshold, I can show a video of that as well. When she does that there is no point in doing anything but leaving the area. It's gone from a long distance, to now 10 feet or less from a strong distraction before she loses it.



> That's another case of skipping foundation training. If she is worried about dragging the leash, that's what you need to work on first. Jumping forward to recall is counterproductive and setting up to fail. First, desensitize the dog to the leash, then work on recalls.


Sorry I don't get it. Recall -is- foundation training.

Kaya loves her leash, she jumps all over and wiggles around in total over threshold excitement when I so much as touch it hoping I'll pick it up, and she can barely contain herself as I hook it up. She is a joy to walk, easiest dog I have ever owned to walk. I let my 8 yr old niece walk her.

Dragging a leash on the ground however, or pulling at the end of the leash, is a totally different matter, she does not do it nor like it.

To desensitize to dragging a leash, she actually has to drag one. Exactly how to get her to drag a leash? Call her until she drags it? That is "recall."

My decision is to just not use a long line on her, I tried a couple of times, it's not something I must use with her, it's not effective as she won't drag it, so I discarded it as a tool with her. Simple, I don't need it.

I have found with her desensitizing with some things is just not an option, she only gets worse with exposure, and will end up quivering in a pile if pressured, so if it's not something I must desensitize her to like a training tool I have other options for, forget it.

I am working to desensitize her to pulling out the flexi, daily. She has less of an issue with it, and I think I can get her used to it. It's that or off leash, and she's not ready to be off leash.



> Clicker doesn't need to mean the little click box. It can be your voice (yes!), a hand snap, clicking your tongue, a "tsk" sound, and so on. If she's scared of the click, then use something she's not scared of that makes a consistent sound.


Duh..

Clicking my tongue freaks her out too, a clap does as well, I use a "yes!" with her, or a "good girl", even that has to be the right tone for the right purpose. 



> Yeah, a lot of dogs are like that. You may want to look into Leslie Devitt's Control Unleashed. It is basically all about raising a dog's threshold, or lowering a dog's threshold. It sounds like you need both!


It's on my coffee table, has been since last summer. Thinking about the DVD set as well.



> I realize that a lot of times it can be smooth sailing. But the faster you advance, the harder the fall. Once a stumbling block is hit, you end up having to take 20 steps backwards instead of just one. Think of it like basketball practice. To be good at it, you practice dribbling all the time, for years. You never stop practicing dribbling. It's not hard, and you can just jump to three pointers pretty easily. But add in a competitor (a distraction) and you get your first stumble. You've hardly practiced dribbling, so the person keeps stealing the ball. You don't have a good enough foundation to succeed. Then you have to forget all about point scoring, and take a huge step back and work on the foundations again for a long time before you can attempt the distraction.


Hope has had a foundation of a year of work, using several methods, and is advancing very fast only now after a year of effort. She isn't learning much new really, but gaining self control, which I have been raising steadily, working daily at, for a year, along with everything else.

She gets daily work on attention, leave it, stays under distraction, recalls under distraction, in varieties of environments, and has for a year and it's paying off well and accelerating as all that long work has started coming together. The collar just seems to be solidifying all that foundation work in my view.

I think Hope will be able to take her CGC, and be reliable enough for me to take her anywhere I want off leash within 2-3 months now.



> That seems really bizarre to me. I would honestly *really* recommend a new trainer. A lot of people in the training world have some strange ideas about dog training. Touch or not, the dog is not learning anything from the stim, which renders it pointless. You might as well work on "Look at me!" exercises instead and eliminate the e-collar altogether if that's how the training is done. Since it's neither +P nor -R, no learning is happening.


It may be bizzarre, I had never heard of the method before. More conditioning like a "look at me" indeed. But a year of daily "look at me" with Hope has not done what the collar has. 

Of course, it isn't just the collar, it's also 4 days a week of class, working specific excercises, under distractions that make walking my neighborhood seem smaller.

Hope is doing awesome, but she is a totally different dog from Kaya. Kaya seems to be gaining no benefit with this method with the collar, she is gaining benefit from the class, just not the collar. I plan to take that up with my trainer soon and work out something new.

Kaya is also newer, I have only had her 6 months, and 2 of those were crate rest from heartworm treatment. She is still very much in the stage of foundation training far behind Hope who got the better part of a year with one on one training with me before Kaya came to stay.

It is also MUCH harder to tell if Kaya understands what I am asking her to do or not, and it seems for her it is much harder to understand clearly what I want. She has some kind of mental issue with voice commands, and has a very hard time getting them straight and connecting them with a behavior, preffering signals either overt or inadvertant which unless I am very precise just makes things even more confusing for her.. 

She is progressing, but a weird little fearful dog like her just might not be a good candidate for any kind of ecollar training. It just may not be a tool that is good for her. Nor is any type of physical force whatsoever. No tugs to get her to move, no leash corrections, she locks up like a statue and resist anythying like that.

The only tool I can use with her that work well is voice praise, especially tone of voice, with hand signals, some touch and treats. I can change her state of mind at will using one word only, just by changing pitch of the word up or down she goes from fearful, through calm, to overexcited, in under 60 seconds and back down. I have to be careful as too much or too high pitched praise and she's over threshold. I have to train myself as much or more than her.

She does not fetch, nor tug, nor play. She has played with exactly two dogs in the 6 months I have had her, out of the dozens she has met. One being Hope, the other not much more than a play bow really.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Ok I'll explain how I define it, in context of this situation.
> 
> Not knowing sit is one thing, you can't blame a dog for that.
> 
> ...


That's anthropomorphizing. You can see how it doesn't help training. What you are doing is attempting to justify punishment, not explain her behavior.




> As for removing her and being prepared and foundation work...
> 
> Hope is a pretty high drive, pretty high energy working line GSD, when I got her for all I can tell she had never seen the outside world before.
> 
> ...


There's over threshold, then there's WAY over threshold. But it doesn't matter how far over threshold she is. You can show me a video of her completely insane, lunging, frothing at the mouth if you want to but, that just means she is *more* over threshold, not that the earlier scenario is under it.




> Sorry I don't get it. Recall -is- foundation training.


We are defining it differently. It is what most people consider basic training but, if a dog is fearful of dragging a leash, then recall training cannot be done. And thus, working on leash dragging comes before recall.



> Kaya loves her leash, she jumps all over and wiggles around in total over threshold excitement when I so much as touch it hoping I'll pick it up, and she can barely contain herself as I hook it up. She is a joy to walk, easiest dog I have ever owned to walk. I let my 8 yr old niece walk her.
> 
> Dragging a leash on the ground however, or pulling at the end of the leash, is a totally different matter, she does not do it nor like it.
> 
> To desensitize to dragging a leash, she actually has to drag one. Exactly how to get her to drag a leash? Call her until she drags it? That is "recall."


Think a bit outside the box. Try something smaller, like a string. something thinner and lighter. Work on getting her to take a step forward, then two steps forward, and so on using shaping. Start shaping the behavior of walking forward before you attach the leash, and have it mean walking forward not recall. I.e. you can be behind her, in front of her, to the side, but the cue is to walk forward.






> Duh..
> 
> Clicking my tongue freaks her out too, a clap does as well, I use a "yes!" with her, or a "good girl", even that has to be the right tone for the right purpose.


I was not aware you knew that since you said you can't do clicker training. 


I don't really know what to tell you. The issues seem pretty obvious to me, and I've had to help people with them many times. Maybe I'm not as good explaining this stuff in text as I am in person, when I can show people what to do. Ah well.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> But knowing how to sit, and being under threshold enough to think what to do, to actively make a decision to turn away from the distraction of her own choice, to engage in social dialog with me for a distinct purpose, and turn back to the distraction and ignore me is not over threshold in my book.


It may not be technically over threshold (which is why I hate technical terms) but that distraction was occupying her mind totally, not whatever you wanted her to do. To me, that's all that would matter. I don't know a lot of technical terms (the few I know relate mostly to OC), I just go by what I observe. If I observe Wally obsessing over something in excitement (or fear - doesn't matter, obsessing is obsessing - the only reason I care if it's fear or excitement is my reaction to the situation), as far as I'm concerned, he might as well be technically over threshold. Practically speaking, it's the same thing with the same result - I don't have a foothold in his mind at that moment. That's the problem, technical definitions be darned.

She looked at you in hopes of you letting her go there. In fact, that's what I would have rewarded. Maybe take a step towards whatever, or give her a uber tasty treat, or whatever might turn her on. Looking at you is almost always a good behavior in such a situation - I would have rewarded it. Heck, might have even taken one step at a time towards her goal every time she looked at me. Just think of all the possible "Look at me's!" you might have gotten freely offered! 

Then once she did that, say 15 times, I hold out for a sit. When she does, another step. Then stop. Wait for a look and a sit. Another step. And so on. Almost like shaping.



TxRider said:


> She could think and she did, she could learn as well, she could make rational decisions and she did just that, she clearly attempted to convince me to do something she wanted, rather than do as I asked. She made a choice.
> 
> She didn't need a sledgehammer, a couple of pops on the leash did perfectly well. Just standing there long enough would have as well.


She did learn, hopefully it's what you wanted (always what we hope as trainers  ) 

That said, is there ever a possible state where the dog CAN'T learn, sans totally having given up and just collapsing in a panting mess? I've seen many a times Wally would rather bolt out of sheer "screw this, I'm out of here!" fear (and would have if not leashed) but I've redirected him into sitting. He obviously learned it because not long after, he offered a sit on his own when scared.




TxRider said:


> Hope is a pretty high drive, pretty high energy working line GSD, when I got her for all I can tell she had never seen the outside world before.
> 
> Should I have never walked her before getting her well behaved, never left my yard until she was 100% focused and perfect in my yard even if it took a year? Maybe so, maybe I made a mistake.


No, I don't agree with that. I don't believe in keeping a dog away from a situation. They'll never get experience on how to act in that situation...until they are in it. If she never saw outside, she'd never acclimate to it by avoiding it. We know dogs are context learners and that emotion is part of the context. Sitting while fearful isn't the same as sitting while calm.

Only thing I might have done differently was work exclusively on focus, even if we didn't get any further than the next corner. Mental work tires out dogs just as fast as physical work. So that high energy would be turned more to mental tasks, maybe she wouldn't have had the energy to be destructive inside.





TxRider said:


> Sorry I don't get it. Recall -is- foundation training.


There's a lot of behaviors involved in recall. There's a lot of possible distractions that have to be ignored (scents, sights, sounds), there's the locating of the handler just by sound, there's being able to turn attention to the handler regardless of whatever is in his mind at the moment. There's coming to the handler - something that might be difficult depending on the dog's personality and time with the handler. 

Each of those behaviors can be worked on before doing the "true" recall behavior. Like RBark said - if a dog doesn't like having a leash on - gotta work on that first. If a dog doesn't know how to give attention to the handler - gotta do that first. If the dog is fearful of walking on a surface (say a slick floor or doesn't like walking on the sidewalk, etc) gotta work on that first, etc. 

We consider recall a basic behavior for safety reasons and more, and one every dog should know down pat if nothing else, but there are things that MIGHT have to be worked on before hand - which would be the 'foundation' of recall.




TxRider said:


> Duh..
> 
> Clicking my tongue freaks her out too, a clap does as well, I use a "yes!" with her, or a "good girl", even that has to be the right tone for the right purpose.


Yeah - I wish it wasn't called "clicker training" because it's not "clicker" training, it's mark-and-reward training (or just simply R+ training). 

But I guess "clicker training" is more catchy/marketable so the term caught on in the dog world.




TxRider said:


> Hope is doing awesome, but she is a totally different dog from Kaya. Kaya seems to be gaining no benefit with this method with the collar, she is gaining benefit from the class, just not the collar. I plan to take that up with my trainer soon and work out something new.


What IS working on Kaya? Try to take that with you. If the collar isn't working for her - what in the class is working?




TxRider said:


> It is also MUCH harder to tell if Kaya understands what I am asking her to do or not, and it seems for her it is much harder to understand clearly what I want. She has some kind of mental issue with voice commands, and has a very hard time getting them straight and connecting them with a behavior, preffering signals either overt or inadvertant which unless I am very precise just makes things even more confusing for her..
> 
> She is progressing, but a weird little fearful dog like her just might not be a good candidate for any kind of ecollar training. It just may not be a tool that is good for her. Nor is any type of physical force whatsoever. No tugs to get her to move, no leash corrections, she locks up like a statue and resist anythying like that.



Sounds like a pretty clear sign, the freezing. I would agree that it might not be best for Kaya. Seems like you're still searching for the way she learns. As you know, dogs are like people in that they learn in different ways and what they actually key on to grasp a concept can be just as different as night and day.





TxRider said:


> The only tool I can use with her that work well is voice praise, especially tone of voice, with hand signals, some touch and treats. I can change her state of mind at will using one word only, just by changing pitch of the word up or down she goes from fearful, through calm, to overexcited, in under 60 seconds and back down. I have to be careful as too much or too high pitched praise and she's over threshold. I have to train myself as much or more than her.


Take this and run with it. If she's highly attuned to your voice, sounds like you have a powerful tool already and you have it with you all the time  I would keep trying to find that control because it seems like once you have it, you have everything you need to work with her and give her both praise and correction/re-direction.



TxRider said:


> She does not fetch, nor tug, nor play. She has played with exactly two dogs in the 6 months I have had her, out of the dozens she has met. One being Hope, the other not much more than a play bow really.


Can you teach her how to play? For example, Wally didn't fetch, I basically had to shape his interest in going to chase something I threw. I did it by first teaching a retrieve (what fetching is), partly through shaping and partly through backchaining, then just working on building interest in a toy so that he really wanted to get it out of my hand and then rewarding his going to get it and bringing it back.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

TxRider said:


> The method I am being trained to use is a stim with every single command, and only with a command. I fail to understand how I could possibly not put a dog in a position to hear a command and therefore be stimmed?


You can't. Like RBark, though he has a better grasp of many principles than I do and is much more eloquent in expressing them, I don't see how any of this is _teaching_ the dog anything.



> It's not -R or P+ that I can see.
> 
> Say your SO is watching a TV show, favorite one, and your talking and they are so focused on the TV show they don't hear you and you walk over and tap them on the shoulder to get them to break focus on the TV and look at you so they can listen to you. Is that P+? R-?


Again, what is that teaching? Not to get absorbed in the TV? The only way I can see that is if the tapping is constant and annoying, so that it becomes a mild aversive and the person keeps their attention on you to avoid the tap.

Additionally, that kind of tap actually triggers a conditioned response. So at some point, that response was taught to that stimulus. It might be an automatic reflex, I'm not really sure, but the principle stands. 



> I have no less distracting areas to use. Where would I go?
> 
> There are no issues in my house, she's already 100% there and has been for a long time. I walk out into my back yard and 3 squirrels dash to the trees and start barking from the fence. Pretty much always.
> 
> Where exactly could I go that's less distracting than a quiet old treelined subdivision street she has walked down roughly 600 times before?


Try your house with the door propped open, try going in and out of the house, in and out of the garage. Try parking your car across the driveway so you at least have a visual block. 

One of the reasons you never stop training foundation is because behaviors fall apart under stress. Have you ever had to give a speech and memorized it and recited it in front of the mirror? Even if you can do it perfect there, you might still be nervous, stumble, and forget your place when you have to give it to a crowd.

Now what if you recite the speech only a couple times in front of the mirror so your presentation is only decent? It's going to fall apart a lot harder when you have to give it in a more stressful environment. This is why clicker trainers split behaviors into tiny little snapshots, it creates a stronger finished behavior.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> That's anthropomorphizing. You can see how it doesn't help training. What you are doing is attempting to justify punishment, not explain her behavior.


I don't see how it's anthropomorphizing.

She took focus off he distraction, and performed a behavior she had learned might get me to move forward. That requires certain cognitive functions and action.



> There's over threshold, then there's WAY over threshold. But it doesn't matter how far over threshold she is. You can show me a video of her completely insane, lunging, frothing at the mouth if you want to but, that just means she is *more* over threshold, not that the earlier scenario is under it.


So technically, at what exact state does plain "interest" or "desire" become "over threshold"? At what state does hearing and understanding your command and choosing not to comply become inability to mentally process a command and comply.

Dogs can and do decide not to comply to know commands after all.

To me over threshold is when the dog made no conscious decision not to comply, it made no choice, as it's mental state prevented it from even processing the command and realizing it was given.. Kaya gives me example of this all the time.

To me a dog that understand the command, and chooses not to comply because it prefers the distraction, is making a choice. The wrong choice.

And while you don't want to set up a dog where the choice is too hard, you do have to teach the dog to make the right choice under some competition for compliance by a distraction if you ever want a dog compliant under distraction.



> We are defining it differently. It is what most people consider basic training but, if a dog is fearful of dragging a leash, then recall training cannot be done. And thus, working on leash dragging comes before recall.


And recall was taught without a leash, in the house, in the fenced yard, and now she drags a 6ft leash during recall but is a bit uneasy about it, and I'm working at it, I see no issue at all with what I am doing. I simply related the issue to better give an idea of her behavior and character, it's not a failure or roadock. I tried a long line, it's a good tool, just not for her.



> Think a bit outside the box. Try something smaller, like a string. something thinner and lighter. Work on getting her to take a step forward, then two steps forward, and so on using shaping. Start shaping the behavior of walking forward before you attach the leash, and have it mean walking forward not recall. I.e. you can be behind her, in front of her, to the side, but the cue is to walk forward.


Done, her recall was taught without a leash, by teaching a sit/stay and recalling, now she drags her light leash. Again I was trying to communicate her character, not to communicate I was having a big problem with it. I adapted as soon as I saw her issues and still am.

She will drag her 6ft nylon leash, she just doesn't like to and is looking back at it as she moves and obviously doesn't like it. She'll get better at it.



> I was not aware you knew that since you said you can't do clicker training.


I was just relating again an oddity to better understand the dog, fear of a clicker to the point of phobia isn't that common I don't think.



> I don't really know what to tell you. The issues seem pretty obvious to me, and I've had to help people with them many times. Maybe I'm not as good explaining this stuff in text as I am in person, when I can show people what to do. Ah well.


Keep in mind that video of Hope is 5 months old, just for reference. It's pretty useless as a gauge as she doesn't display that behavior now. And it was done on request of someone who asked to see her reaction to a leash correction. I don't know if I'm a good enough writer to express well enough to give you a clear enough picture.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> She looked at you in hopes of you letting her go there. In fact, that's what I would have rewarded.


She did it because it usually is rewarded, by moving forward.



> That said, is there ever a possible state where the dog CAN'T learn, sans totally having given up and just collapsing in a panting mess?


Yes there is. Extreme excitement and extreme stress fear/avoidance/flight. Hope might exhibit the excitement (prey drive), Kaya exhibits all of them, frequently.



> Only thing I might have done differently was work exclusively on focus, even if we didn't get any further than the next corner. Mental work tires out dogs just as fast as physical work. So that high energy would be turned more to mental tasks, maybe she wouldn't have had the energy to be destructive inside.


The goal since that vid 5 months ago has been almost exclusively working for attention and focus outdoors. It has improved markedly since then. And I did back up and start over, just after that video, and didn't make a block for a week.

The class I chose is also focused primarily on that, building focus in high distraction environments. It has helped a lot going 4 nights a week, each night a different environment.



> Sounds like a pretty clear sign, the freezing. I would agree that it might not be best for Kaya. Seems like you're still searching for the way she learns. As you know, dogs are like people in that they learn in different ways and what they actually key on to grasp a concept can be just as different as night and day.


Kaya is quite a puzzle. The freezing is when any physical force is applied, even a tiny bit. No pushing her butt down to sit, or pulling her leash up, no tugging her to move etc.



> Take this and run with it. If she's highly attuned to your voice, sounds like you have a powerful tool already and you have it with you all the time  I would keep trying to find that control because it seems like once you have it, you have everything you need to work with her and give her both praise and correction/re-direction.


That's what I am learning with her, how to best use tone and cadence etc. as she is very responsive to it. She just has trouble grasping a word means a specific command, so it's best used in just praise. She is very handler oriented and very tuned to me, not in a way I am used to, so it has been difficult for me to realize, to explore, to then read and adapt to.

It's almost funny sometimes, I can control her heel position by giving praise at different pitches and cadence, lower pitch she lags, higher she forges, just right tone and frequency and she stays in just the right spot.

Same with teaching anything, the wrong praise and she pops right into going over threshold excited and unable to think, unable to think and learn. Outside, you have to read her close as any sound or sight can shut her off, and half the time you never know what it was.

The always picking a cue from my movement and not the voice cue was tough as well, and tough for me to realize and condition myself to always be aware of and use and not to confuse her with. I still struggle with that.



> Can you teach her how to play? For example, Wally didn't fetch, I basically had to shape his interest in going to chase something I threw. I did it by first teaching a retrieve (what fetching is), partly through shaping and partly through backchaining, then just working on building interest in a toy so that he really wanted to get it out of my hand and then rewarding his going to get it and bringing it back.


I'm working on it. She will play with Hope, just not with me really or any other person or dog. But I see sparks of life there, and I think eventually she will open up and fetch and tug and get better. It's only been about 6 months.

She only got cleared to have any physical exercise at the end of January about 10-12 weeks ago. She's also paying a physical price for the heartworms, treatment and confinement as her physical stamina is pretty low.

I plan to back chain fetch, I have gotten her to chase a toy, and she naturally runs back, but only once or twice. I was going to backchain fetch with a clicker, but that obviously didn't work out, and now were too deep in sit/stay, place, heel, free, and other commands to have enough time to devote to it right now.

Overall Kaya is a real joy. Sweet, polite as she can be, very very affectionate, extremely tuned in to me, attached like a remora on a shark, and no problem really. She is a perfectly good dog just how she is, a great loyal sidekick dog. I see glimmers of huge potential in her, it's just a bit of a minefield drawing that potential out. She would make an awesome adoptee for someone for single dog home, who was into all positive methods.

I decided to try the ecollar with Kaya and see what how she would react, and while I see no real negative, I'm seeing no real positive either. And I don't think using it as an aversive, the normal e-collar method, would work at all though she could fool me I guess.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> You can't. Like RBark, though he has a better grasp of many principles than I do and is much more eloquent in expressing them, I don't see how any of this is _teaching_ the dog anything.


It doesn't teach anything as far as I can determine.

I was actually thinking about this at class tonight. The dog has to already know the command and behavior and have learned through normal methods of teaching/learning.

It was quite apparent tonight with a couple of newer owners using the collar with a command the dog clearly didn't understand. They are not doing their homework outside class, and the trainer and an assistant took them aside to work on it most of the class.

The only use this method has I can see, is to break focus on a distraction and condition attention on the handler when the command is given. The dog has to learn the command beforehand or it's of no real use.

That's my take on it anyway. I wouldn't switch trainers over e-collar use at any rate. Teaching is done through positive reinforcement, and he in no way requires use of an e-collar and is quite happy to train without one.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Today's class was nice.

The location was a town square, really a huge outdoor mall. The exercise was mainly heeling around the place, up and down stairs, past open shop doors with music playing, in and around inside the Apple store.

I took Hope out of the truck off leash, and handled her off leash until it was time to start class.

She did very well. She would almost have done it all off leash very well except a couple of distractions. She got many comments on how calm and well behaved she is.

The ecollar is working awesome with her, basically just what I needed, and paired with the class aimed at distractions it's doing wonders.

She is at the point where she will heel right up to another dog and owner, and not greet until I release her. Before this class she would have been lunging and pulling to get to the dog, once we got within about 20 feet.

After class we went to the three dog bakery, but the bones were baked, and the store was small and most of the treats and the food had grain in it. Someone with about a 15 lb little dog came up to greet Hope, the little dog lunged and snapped a Hope, and did it a few more times later. Hope just backed off and actively avoided the little thing like the good girl she is.

So we went off to petsmart, Hope heeled great past the rescue dogs outside and around the store and since the dog and cat rescues were there, with the cat rescue inside, I took some time to work with Hope on her cat obsession keeping her just inside her threshold and getting her to break focus and look at me for a treat. She could go to about 15 feet away, but if one started meowing I had to add distance.

The cat rescue ladies were looking at me with concern, but ended up coming over and loving on Hope once they saw what I was doing. She got a lot of petting from kids, lots of comments on her good behavior.

I may even have her taking a CGC test in another month or so i things keep improving as well as they have been.



I got home and decided since it was an overcast and rainy day I would take Kaya out to the woods for a walk, as she stayed home while Hope went to class.

No joggers or bikers would be out at the local lake park that has miles of wooded mountain bike trails, a creek, and paved trails. I get few enough days like this where I don't have to worry about getting too much sun for my sun allergy.

Once we got out in the woods I let Kaya off leash and was working on her recall. The woods were great as she actually will go out more than 20-30 feet away at times so I can call her back. She did really good off leash, but I still don't think the ecollar is doing much for her. She got to kinda chase some ducks, they flew out away from shore and she wanted to go swim to them, but wouldn't go any deeper than when her belly hit the water. Then she tripped over a dead branch under the water and flew out of the water like something bit her...

I had her hop up and over a few picnic tables, practiced heeling ofleash a while and took a break to rest. Then I found a new game to play with her. I got her attention and tossed a hunk of freeze dried liver out into the tall brush and she got all excited and pounced all over till she found it, and zoomed back to me all excited, so I tossed several more and she was quite happy and bouncy and pouncy as she rarely gets..

6 hours of dog walking and playing, dogs are passed out on the sofa, now I need a nap.


----------



## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

I did not follow the whole thread but just saw this one video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD28N3xIuog

I see an unhappy dog with no drive slowly obeying commands in a wishy washy way. This typically results when using a short cut method, ie, not enough solid foundation using motivation and waay too much compulsion. If this is the intent then it is ok I guess.


----------



## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I see a dog that is behaving herself and acting in a neutral/controlled manner like the dogs you see tested for CGC that pass. Off leash and having fun is where all the excitement should be.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

ssg said:


> I did not follow the whole thread but just saw this one video
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD28N3xIuog
> 
> I see an unhappy dog with no drive slowly obeying commands in a wishy washy way. This typically results when using a short cut method, ie, not enough solid foundation using motivation and waay too much compulsion. If this is the intent then it is ok I guess.


It kind of is the intent I guess.

I could find no motivational ways to get compliance outdoors. And she isn't so happy about complying, she would rather not.

But she's not really unhappy, when reading her realize her ears are permanently down and very unnatural, they are about 80% scar tissue and crinkled up due to past neglect and serious damage and can't move much. Otherwise they would standing up and scanning around like a normal GSD as she is actually alert and looking for squirrels in much of that vid.

Here is a vid to compare to a few months back with a squirrel way up in a tree. She is excited here, even when she knows she cant get to it. she gets way more driven if one is on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zZnItGcYY

Solid foundation is a little tough as I adopted her as basically a feral adult, seized from a BYB at the point of death from neglect at 3yrs old. She has a well built foundation, just a very wrong one.

She's 4 now, and it is my hope that now that I am getting compliance I might have more opportunity for building motivation and drive for more than just killing any small animal that moves.

She is slow sitting in that vid because she is just learning to sit in heel when I stop without being told to. Something she started picking upon just a few days earlier.

But it is compulsion to obey, she has tons of drive, it's just all focused on killing prey and very hard to compete with. She is losing that drive now, it's starting to show, and I have to find ways to point it in another direction and replace it and build on it.

I'd welcome any other thoughts on it though.

Indoors she is a totally different dog, but there is no possibility of prey indoors. Her drive to catch and kill small animals totally outranks me or anything I can offer in her mind.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Here is a vid to compare to for reading her body language.

Notice the ears, hard to read. And her tail stays below horizontal even when she's excited enough to lunge on the leash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zZnItGcYY

She is excited enough to lunge, even though she knows she can't possibly get to the squirrel, it's just the sight of it. She gets a lot higher drive if it's on the ground. But then she drops her head and body into hard eyed slow stalk until they break and run.

That is the drive I am competing with, she now will no longer lunge but stays in heel, and she's not totally happy with that.

Another video example. Rbark said earlier it didn't look like she knew what I was asking for when I told her to sit outside on the leash. Here is the same dog 5 months ago, when that other vid was taken. She knows sit very well, is very excited at the prospect of getting out and hunting squirrels and cats and she will comply with anything to get outside. She still vocally complains though, because she is in a hurry, and getting out to see critters is her top priority. Doing anything else is getting in the way to her mind, but she does it with gusto to earn the reward of going out.

Once out he door there is no reward that means anything to her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WzSLWnbUc8


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have been brought up, but have you tried using a rabbit pelt or something as a reward? Or a flirt pole with a piece of animal skin/fur attached to it? Just make sense to me since she seems to be driven by animals/motion.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have been brought up, but have you tried using a rabbit pelt or something as a reward? Or a flirt pole with a piece of animal skin/fur attached to it? Just make sense to me since she seems to be driven by animals/motion.


I have used a flirt pole to get her to learn to play and tug when I got her, but it seems no good out in the world at large.

An animal skin might be something though, dunno why I haven't tried that. I would likely want something I skinned that wasn't chemical tanned though.

Hmm, I guess I know where the next run over squirrel we come across will end up...

She does show good interest in the dead ones we came across.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think that would be good. I'm not a fan of e-collars in general, BUT, my bigger problem with this is that she doesn't have anything to be motivated by at all except the world at large.. I dislike the idea of a dog listening to its owner simply because it has no choice. So, if you were using the collar in conjunction with some sort of really highly rewarding thing, I feel like that'd be better. I know it's hard to find something rewarding for her, but I do think you should keep looking.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I think that would be good. I'm not a fan of e-collars in general, BUT, my bigger problem with this is that she doesn't have anything to be motivated by at all except the world at large.. I dislike the idea of a dog listening to its owner simply because it has no choice. So, if you were using the collar in conjunction with some sort of really highly rewarding thing, I feel like that'd be better. I know it's hard to find something rewarding for her, but I do think you should keep looking.


I'm not that against letting her chase squirrels as a reward either, as long as she only does so when released to, and stops on command. But I go too many places with loose cats, and may end up moving onto some acreage with family that has outside cats, which will be a problem.

I would rather see if the prey drive will lower over time, and I can replace it with ball/frisbee chasing, and maybe even herding. She will fetch a ball, and her ball drive is growing over time though it pales in comparison to live prey to her. Sheep on the other hand, might really give her an outlet, but I can't take her to try herding until she will mind me well.

My immediate goal is a CGC, and if she can get past that, herding instinct test.

For now I'm using food rewards, which she won't work for, but will take now. S t least she gets food and praise for obeying, even though it's not enough reward for her to work to gain.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I'm not that against letting her chase squirrels as a reward either, as long as she only does so when released to, and stops on command.


That's how Wally learned to stay close by and under control. Same with recall - if he came back, he got to chase it (or another one) again for another round, etc.

He generalized it to cats (and birds and dogs) eventually - except, of course, I don't let him chase the cats (or dogs - birds I don't mind as long as they aren't in the street  ) but instead I let him "chase and kill" his stuffed rabbit or his pink pig or his rope bone. He gets all into it too like he's letting out his frustrating on it LOL.

I still hold out hope that you can get Kaya's interest in toys up a lot. I had to 'teach' Wally to get where he is with toys, so I think it can be done!


----------



## grace (Apr 15, 2010)

My dog is e-collar trained, and it has been the biggest life saver ever. I adopted her when she was one, and she was so messed up. Hyper, fearful of people, extremely dog aggressive, and completely unresponsive to training. I went through a behaviorist who recommended the e-collar because my dog is so bull headed. I don't think it's a good tool for fearful dogs, but for the dogs who have no interest in pleasing you (I'm not talking golden retriever), it is a great tool and can often be a lifesaver (literally!) for the very troubled dog. 

The stimulus feels like a tingling sensation on the lowest levels (1 and 2). I tried it on myself to be sure. It is the ultimate way to redirect, and to reinforce commands with an off leash dog. A smart dog that is independant will figure out that when it's off leash, you can't make it do anything. And no amount of treats and positive reinforcement will make a dog that isn't interested in you or what you are telling it to do will help. Even using NILIF in the home and strict obedience training. If they aren't interested, they aren't interested. 

Anyways, my dog was first trained what the stimulus meant. We did this by going to the park with a long leash and the collar on. I would walk around in big loops, and once my dog was distracted by something turn abruptly and walk the opposite direction while hitting the button at the lowest level. I did this over and over again until when I turned the opposite direction, my dog would just automatically follow me. When she did automatically follow me, she wouldn't get any stimulation. When she didn't turn towards me, she would get it. Once we got that down, I would start giving a command. So walk around with the long lead until my dog was distracted, the turn and go the opposite direction and say "come". When she came right away, she would get praise/treat and no stimulation. You have to work on the stimulation level your dog reacts to. For my dog, that was the lowest. A dog like a husky may start off at a higher level, but once they begin to associate the sensation with something, you can turn it down. I was working on a strong recall with my dog, and that's how I taught her. She eventually learned that the stimulation meant that she needed to be by me. By the end of the session she was walking by my side on the long lead. My dog was really receptive to this training, so it only took about 10 minutes for her to figure it out. Other dogs it takes longer for them to get it. I worked on it with her every day for about 20 minutes on a long lead until she became trustworthy, and then started taking her out off leash. It's great. When we go to the off leash dog park/hiking, she stays by my side the whole time if I tell her to. 

My dog was an extremely hyped up and nervous dog, and the e-collar seemed to calm her. Like she feels better because someone is in charge of the situation besides her. She never seemed afraid of me or the sensation. Once we got that down, we have been able to branch out. She just knows that the sensation is a correction of something I don't want her to do... I have taught her come, leave it, heel, not to bark with the e-collar. She is still aggressive towards dogs, and probably always will have some issues. She is getting better. The e-collar is great, because when she sees another dog and wants to run up and attack it, I just tell her to leave it and heal. She will just walk calmly by my side and ignore the other dog. If a dog comes up to her and an altercation starts, I can redirect her with the collar. I am lucky with this. A lot of dogs will fight more once engaged with another dog and they get zapped. My dog actually stops, and it's the only way I've found to break it up. One zap and she's back by my side. She doesn't need the collar anymore except for when she's around other dogs in an off leash setting. I NEVER zap her once a dog has run up to her and they have started sniffing. Only if she decides to fight with that dog. 

Anyways, I worked then and continue to work weekly with a great trainer/behaviorist, and we're making progress little by little. I doubt she will ever be completely trustworthy with other dogs..

I realise that an e-collar isn't for every dog, but it has turned my dog into a whole new animal. And for particularly stubborn breeds I would highly recommend it. At our advanced training class, Lucy can sit and stay for 25 minutes in a room full of dogs and me walking around the room or out of the room. Even if other dogs get up and run by her, she will stay. It has been a great tool to help manage Lucy, and has made her a joy to have around instead of a stressful headache. It has given us a better relationship and has allowed me to do things with her I never could have done before.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Had a nice walk this morning with Kaya.

I had bought two flexis, one for a 50-60lb dog for Kaya, which uses a cord, and one for Hope that's for 100lb dogs, which uses a flat nylon strap on the reel.

Hope's seemed to have a little less tension and reel out a little easier, and also a lot smoother and quieter with I assume less felt on her end. So I tried hope's flexi on Kaya.

She did seem much more ready to reel it out.

She is such an odd dog though. If I speak softly to myself just rambling on in a soft low tone her confidence perks up and off to the end of the leash she goes, if I am silent she lags back to my side.

I also started playing look at me, but tossing the chunk of liver ten feet off in peoples yards to get her to reel out the leash without thinking about it and get used to it.

On top of that, she also has grasped heeling pretty firmly now. Just last week I wasn't sure she actually understood the concept.

I think I may be able to tell if the collar is doing anything for her or not a little more clearly soon.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Switched up and took Kaya to Tuesday class last night.

She did pretty well, but flipped out stress wise on a couple of excercises. One where they all sit/stay on platforms and we leave them and go out of sight, and then come back and all the people weave through the platforms. She held her stay great but she was wigging out with so many people walking past her in a line.

She wigs out when I heel her weaving through the platforms as well, so I have to weave way out away from the line of platforms and give her time to catch her thoughts before going between two more dogs.

She is starting to recover from those better though, she used to stay stressed out for like 10 minutes afterward, now she is recovering a lot faster.

I'm not sure the e-collar isn't just adding to her stress though.

One notable event, she actually ran to me in a long recall dragging her leash, and not looking back at it like it was chasing her. She started out hesitant and looking back at it in a walk like usual, then after 20 feet just looked ahead and ran to me. It wouldn't be notable for most dogs, but for her that's a noticeable mark of progress for me.

She was heeling so well in our group heeling excercises though, I decided to drop the leash and see if she would maintain her heel, and she stopped dead and looked back at the leash like it was nailed to the pavement. I'll have to work on that as it's own excercise I suppose.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

TxRider said:


> But knowing how to sit, and being under threshold enough to think what to do, to actively make a decision to turn away from the distraction of her own choice, to engage in social dialog with me for a distinct purpose, and turn back to the distraction and ignore me is not over threshold in my book.
> 
> She could think and she did, she could learn as well, she could make rational decisions and she did just that, she clearly attempted to convince me to do something she wanted, rather than do as I asked. She made a choice.



Apparently you do not subscribe fully to the learning theory explanation. I'm not saying that's bad, because I think all dogs to some extent "know" commands, but to me the learning theory explanation is most useful in actually making a change in behavior.

In the learning theory world, when dogs do not obey a command, it simply means that they are not trained enough. Any sort of rational defiance you may project onto the dog is disregarded because it does not help you to teach your dog to obey. There is no such thing as a dog "knowing" a command. Dogs obey a command because of the reinforcement history behind it, not because they understand it the meaning of the command.

It is likened to muscle building or that sort of activity. The idea of putting a golf ball into a hole is a simple concept, but how many people can actually do it in one try? If you miss the hole, does that mean that you are being rebellious and defiant? No, it means you need more practice. If you get a problem wrong on a math test, are you being disobedient? No, you need more practice. Dog training is the same concept. If they can't do it, it means they need more practice.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

qingcong said:


> Apparently you do not subscribe fully to the learning theory explanation. I'm not saying that's bad, because I think all dogs to some extent "know" commands, but to me the learning theory explanation is most useful in actually making a change in behavior.
> 
> In the learning theory world, when dogs do not obey a command, it simply means that they are not trained enough. Any sort of rational defiance you may project onto the dog is disregarded because it does not help you to teach your dog to obey. There is no such thing as a dog "knowing" a command. Dogs obey a command because of the reinforcement history behind it, not because they understand it the meaning of the command.


Learning theory operates using the four quadrants of operant conditioning though yes?

Behavior is formed by consequence, positive consequences as well as negative ones.

So if the dog is self reinforced more strongly to do something other than what the command is asking for, then negative reinforcement for that alternate behavior will reduce it, leaving the behavior the command asked for as the most reinforced behavior.

When there are two well reinforced behaviors, the unwanted one needs to be reduced by consequence. Especially when you have limited if any means to increase the reinforcement of the desired behavior.



> It is likened to muscle building or that sort of activity. The idea of putting a golf ball into a hole is a simple concept, but how many people can actually do it in one try? If you miss the hole, does that mean that you are being rebellious and defiant? No, it means you need more practice. If you get a problem wrong on a math test, are you being disobedient? No, you need more practice. Dog training is the same concept. If they can't do it, it means they need more practice.


I see it more like a teen that a parent asks to go to bed, but the teen would rather play a video game. What do you do if the teen refuses to go to bed and simply whines and pleads, then ignores you and flips on the video game and starts playing it?

As I said sit is a simple concept and she knew it very well. She simply had something that was more rewarding to her that she wanted to do. More practice will not change her preference and make sit more rewarding for her. The alternate behavior she prefers, that is strongly self reinforced, needs to be modified in it's reinforcement, in that case with a negative consequence, to reduce the behavior. Is that not learning theory?


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

TxRider said:


> I see it more like a teen that a parent asks to go to bed, but the teen would rather play a video game. What do you do if the teen refuses to go to bed and simply whines and pleads, then ignores you and flips on the video game and starts playing it?


Well, I know I wouldn't zap a teen for this behavior.  Instead, I'd go unplug the machine and take it away for a time (negative punishment). I'd even premak it... you can play, after you do x. Physically getting after the teen for playing the video game after my request to stop isn't going to reinforce the behavior of turning off the machine. The teen really isn't going to find stopping his play any more fun if I punish him for playing. On the other hand, you can control access to that very valuable resource (just like you can control your dog's access to the outdoors, sniffing, squirrels, etc.) and practice having your teen do x to earn y as that will change his preference and make x behavior happen more frequently and better than ever over time as he comes to understand the value in doing so.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> Well, I know I wouldn't zap a teen for this behavior.  Instead, I'd go unplug the machine and take it away for a time (negative punishment).


I can't unplug the squirrels and the smells of the world. Not an option. I could just not take her for a walk for days, somehow I doubt she would make the connection and would comply even less after days without a walk.



> I'd even premak it... you can play, after you do x.


And if he refuses to do X, ignores the request, and just starts playing? Remember you cannot unplug the machine and take it away, any more than I can unplug the environment around me on a walk.



> Physically getting after the teen for playing the video game after my request to stop isn't going to reinforce the behavior of turning off the machine. The teen really isn't going to find stopping his play any more fun if I punish him for playing.


No but he may find starting to play it less fun if a negative consequence is attached to turning it on and playing when asked to go to bed, and go to bed instead. Remember, you cannot unplug it just as I cannot unplug the squirrel down the street.



> On the other hand, you can control access to that very valuable resource (just like you can control your dog's access to the outdoors, sniffing, squirrels, etc.) and practice having your teen do x to earn y as that will change his preference and make x behavior happen more frequently and better than ever over time as he comes to understand the value in doing so.


Again, she'll do anything before we go outside. Any command, she'll have her butt on the ground before I can even finish saying sit, she will sit, stand up, shake hands, play dead, and she would do all those in sequence in under 15 seconds. She earns going outside without a problem.

Once outside the valuable resource is not something I have any control over, I cannot change the environment. The reward for complying is less valuable then the reward for non compliance. She is now playing the video game, and I cannot unplug it. Asking her to go to bed falls on deaf ears.

Is she being zapped for that behavior? How does pushing the button for every command fit into that concept? She gets it whether she complies or not, before she complies or not. It's more of a classic pavlovian conditioning as far as I can figure. Not a punishment for non compliance.

But it is effective. I went early to class tonight, and Hope got a long offleash jaunt through some open fields and woods, got to run to her hearts content, and recalled 100% solidly. She spent half the class off leash as well.

She gets big praise and frequent treat rewards for every recall, every heel, every sit, every down, the things she never would have done before so could not possibly be rewarded and reinforced, and she's getting the picture that it's not so bad to comply. Now I can actually reinforce the correct behavior with rewards, because she actually performs the behavior.

Kinda like poking the kid with your finger and saying "go to bed" at the same time as he plays the game, until he goes to bed, then rewarding him for doing so.


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

You can't control the sights and smells of the outdoors, but you can control your dog's access to them. Crate her. Put her back in the car. Bring her back inside.

Have you read When Pigs Fly, by Jane Killion?


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> You can't control the sights and smells of the outdoors, but you can control your dog's access to them. Crate her. Put her back in the car. Bring her back inside.


I think she would connect that consequence to a failure to sit when asked outside about as well as she would connect being scolded for an accident in the house after the fact. I doubt she would relate the two events, especially if it was block away from the house on a 3 mile walk.

As it is now she does comply now, and I can now positively reinforce that compliance, which I know she relates to and reinforces compliance.

But the original statement was about learning theory. Negative consequences are just as much a part of that as positive consequences are. Both are learned from to modify behavior.


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Obviously you wouldn't start by going on a 3 mile walk.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> Obviously you wouldn't start by going on a 3 mile walk.


Yes, and with a pup I was raising that might be fine. But I have a drivey 4 year old working line rescue GSD, and she needs her exercise or I could end up with even worse issues. I can promise I would certainly have no peace, she would be pacing the house incessantly, pestering me to no end, and finding her own outlet for it.

Maybe walking her a few miles twice a day was a mistake, but I was working under the assumption it was avoiding creating other issues if I had not done so.

My other dog is the opposite, and she could go without a walk for months. But she complies outside or anywhere else, as long as she understands what is being asked of her.


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Most of my dogs can take a 3 mile walk, followed by a half hour nap, then wake up and be ready for more action. I've found that short training sessions can be way more tiring than walks, and these can easily be done where I can have access to my home, my Jeep, my crates and my ex-pen. If your dog needs a hard core outlet, you can always do something with a flirt or spring pole, etc. Not being able to walk 3 miles from home isn't the end of the world, especially when you are in the beginning stages of training and trying to set your dog up for success. Of course, I can also drive a dog to different locations and still have access to my Jeep and crates and ex-pen.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> Most of my dogs can take a 3 mile walk, followed by a half hour nap, then wake up and be ready for more action. I've found that short training sessions can be way more tiring than walks, and these can easily be done where I can have access to my home, my Jeep, my crates and my ex-pen. If your dog needs a hard core outlet, you can always do something with a flirt or spring pole, etc. Not being able to walk 3 miles from home isn't the end of the world, especially when you are in the beginning stages of training and trying to set your dog up for success. Of course, I can also drive a dog to different locations and still have access to my Jeep and crates and ex-pen.


I'm not that much in the beginning, this has been worked on for a year now. I won't go through all the methods employed over that year as it would require pages, but progress has been made but difficult.

I actually did try that kind of thing, and didn't get more then a couple of houses away for a week, and after a month I decided to try a training class held outdoors, in a different location that had no learned behavior attached to it on her part with more distractions than my neighborhood, but more controlled where I can work with her and attend 4 days a week with help from other owners and a training staff.

And after weeks there, and watching the other dogs who were working off leash with the e-collar, decided to try it. The results have been impressive.

It's been a good experience overall so far. She already understood what I was asking for and either would not or could not comply at times, now she complies and gets rewarded for doing so. The only remaining question is when and how is the use of the collar withdrawn successfully.

For my other dog, it has been a neutral experience so far. I see no real negative nor positive results or consequences from the collar use. But she is not completely obsessed with prey drive like the other dog and is only 6 months into training.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I finally watched the video of Hope and the squirrel and the two leash pops and the sit.. and I can tell you only one thing. 

Your dog has not been taught an ATTENTION cue. You need that. You need that focus when you ask for it. Not sit. Not heel. Not anything else but THAT. 

IF you get it by walking her and suddenly having to run back wards so she turns and faces you.. if you have to wave your arms.. if you have to do the Jig in Public without any beer on board.. WHATEVER you have to do you HAVE TO HAVE THAT. 

And you do not have that. You cannot ask for attention and even get a glance (which you need... ).

When she was staring at the squirrel and you needed her to do the sit, and it was obvious (to me anyway) that she was not PAYING ATTENTION to YOU, you should have done ANYTHING to get her attention. Yup. ANYTHING (including running away from the squirrel). The INSTANT she looked at you (like WHAT is the MATTER with this guy.. Can't he see I am squirrel watching over here?) you shoud have had a noisey, happy, silly voice dog party AND food IF she would take it. 

You are being too reserved.. you sometimes have to make an @$$ of yourself in public to get a dog's attention.. and you cannot get ANYTHING from the dog w/o attention first. High silly voice, jumping around, foolishness and running backward away from the object of interest.... pulling her along if you must.. EVENTUALLY She WILL look at you.. even for a Second.. and you make that a huge deal.

And, no matter what your training method, getting your dog to pay attention to YOU and not the environment is a life long effort on your part. Just so you know. 



TxRider said:


> My immediate goal is a CGC, and if she can get past that, herding instinct test.


BEFORE you go for herding anything you need to have a 100% fool proof LIE DOWN on your dog.. any place, anytime, anywhere, no matter what. 

BEFORE you even show Hope livestock, go and watch some being herded and look at what dogs fail and where and be sure your dog will do those things no matter what.

And BEFORE doing any of that you need her FOCUS. 



TxRider said:


> Yes, and with a pup I was raising that might be fine. But I have a drivey 4 year old working line rescue GSD, and she needs her exercise or I could end up with even worse issues. I can promise I would certainly have no peace, she would be pacing the house incessantly, pestering me to no end, and finding her own outlet for it.


Yes. You have. And you know what you do? Make LIE DOWN AND STAY her JOB. I can hike Atka 5 miles and she will come home and rest and an hour or two later be pacing. She needs a job. The job is lie down and STAY. 



> Maybe walking her a few miles twice a day was a mistake, but I was working under the assumption it was avoiding creating other issues if I had not done so.


No. Not teaching her attention was your mistake. Not challenging her doggy brian in undistracting situations is the mistake. Short training sessions teaching her something new (like how to open a door by pulling on a towl tied to the handle) will tire her out as well.

Remember.. I have one of these dogs. 



> My other dog is the opposite, and she could go without a walk for months. But she complies outside or anywhere else, as long as she understands what is being asked of her.


And Atka is different than Kazi in her expression of need for a job. Kazi HAD a job.. full time herding and farm work AND focus and Obedience. Atka has a job too. Focus. Obedience. New training cues (hand signals, voice cues etc.)

Toss in an "attention" cue here and there.. random stays.. random lie downs..hand signals.. heel position etc etc etc throughout the time you spend with the dog. 

Sorry I did not get to look at this earlier. BUT from what I saw you need a ton of attention work and that takes a ton of time and even more effort. 

I know. I took a year off and just worked on that. 

As to *Heel *work. IF you plan to ever take your dog into competition Obedience, do not do off leash heel work too soon. Short leash and good position and attention (looking at your FACE) every time you heel your dog, be it one step of 200 steps. *Never let heel position be wrong so you never have to fix this*. Lesson I have learned a day late and a dollar short. *sigh*


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

TxRider said:


> As I said sit is a simple concept and she knew it very well. She simply had something that was more rewarding to her that she wanted to do. More practice will not change her preference and make sit more rewarding for her. The alternate behavior she prefers, that is strongly self reinforced, needs to be modified in it's reinforcement, in that case with a negative consequence, to reduce the behavior. Is that not learning theory?


Good points, and I agree that to some extent dogs do defy us and choose their own path. However, in the learning theory world, dogs are treated as simple input-output machines. Since we'll never know what's happening in their brains, I think that it is best to assume the simplified model rather than guess at whatever complex feelings they may be having. With the simplified model, you know that you are working within the confines of their cognitive abilities. It's an estimation of what's going on in their heads, but it's an estimation in the right direction.

With the leash correction video, the simplified model would simply state that the dog hadn't been distraction proofed with squirrels. You bring up a good point that the less desired behavior can be decreased with negative consequences, but I think you are sending mixed signals in the video. If you want her to sit, leash corrections are not going to teach her to sit. This is when positive folks would bust out chopped liver, cheese, whatever it took to get the dog's attention. Your message is sort of like: sit, sit, leash pop, sit, sit, leash pop. From the dog's point of view, "sit" basically becomes a precursor for a leash pop. 

You say that the dog knows how to sit. Sure, but is it really that simple? I can play a certain riff on the guitar at 120bpm, but there's no way I can do it at 160bpm right now. You can't beat me into playing that riff at 160. It appears that to Hope, managing self control with squirrels in sight is like moving the basketball goal 20 feet away.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I finally watched the video of Hope and the squirrel and the two leash pops and the sit.. and I can tell you only one thing.
> 
> Your dog has not been taught an ATTENTION cue. You need that. You need that focus when you ask for it. Not sit. Not heel. Not anything else but THAT.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. That is the problem. But she has been taught an attention cue, and uses it well in non distracting situations. She simply hasn't been able to do it outside in a year of working on it. I might eventually get there, but I'd like to do so before she's an old dog.

I even practice this every night at training class, "look here" with a reward for eye contact. She is improving, but only because the distraction that class presents is becoming desensitized I think.

As it is now, the collar gets me her attention each and every time I call her name. Which I then reward.

I understand what you mean about being too reserved, and your surely correct, I have not done enough of what your describing there to compete with the distractions, and I can see it probably helping. I haven't been as reserved as that video shows though, I have looked like a quite a crazy person at times trying different things, likely not enough though. That vid was made to show someone who asked me how she responded to a leash correction, so she was kinda set up for it.



> BEFORE you even show Hope livestock, go and watch some being herded and look at what dogs fail and where and be sure your dog will do those things no matter what.
> 
> And BEFORE doing any of that you need her FOCUS.


Yes, which is why she hasn't been exposed to it yet.



> Yes. You have. And you know what you do? Make LIE DOWN AND STAY her JOB. I can hike Atka 5 miles and she will come home and rest and an hour or two later be pacing. She needs a job. The job is lie down and STAY.


Working on that, "go lay down" pretty much has it covered these days, but it's also a work in progress. When I got her that wasn't a possibility like it is now, as she was an adult without human socialization or any training. I was more worried about destructive behavior, seperation anxiety and other issues I wanted to be sure to prevent.



> No. Not teaching her attention was your mistake. Not challenging her doggy brian in undistracting situations is the mistake. Short training sessions teaching her something new (like how to open a door by pulling on a towl tied to the handle) will tire her out as well.
> 
> Remember.. I have one of these dogs.


I do that, I have been working for attention since day one with a "look here" and a treat for eye contact, and calling her name with a treat for eye contact, for a year. In undistracting situations I have her attention. She has learned to stay while I hide her ball and to search the house for it, to fetch my socks for me in the morning when I put on my shoes and other tasks, and a look whenever I say her name is automatic inside. I just have not been able to get it outside.

If I say her name inside, her eyes lock on mine, and her head tilts to one side as I speak parsing every word for recognition like the old RCA dog. And her vocabulary has passed what I can recount easily.



> Sorry I did not get to look at this earlier. BUT from what I saw you need a ton of attention work and that takes a ton of time and even more effort.
> 
> I know. I took a year off and just worked on that.
> 
> As to *Heel *work. IF you plan to ever take your dog into competition Obedience, do not do off leash heel work too soon. Short leash and good position and attention (looking at your FACE) every time you heel your dog, be it one step of 200 steps. *Never let heel position be wrong so you never have to fix this*. Lesson I have learned a day late and a dollar short. *sigh*


I never plan to have her compete in anything, much less obedience. Attention heel looking up at me is not something I think I can ever get, certainly not easily, and is not a priority. She has some mental block about looking at my face while heeling. Staying at my side as we pass a cat or squirrel bolting away or such no matter what, being able to turn her around if she is in chase is all I really need. I pretty much have that today, with the collar.

Thinking about this a bit more I have another thought to toss out there. In teaching her manners and everything about outside, I think it slipped into a bad situation from the very start.

She learned that she doesn't get a leash hooked up to go out unless she sits still and lets me hook it up, no matter how excited she is.

She learned the door doesn't open unless she sits still and stays until I open the door, and until I release her.

She learned that If she pulls I don't move forward unless she turns back to me and gets off the end of the leash.

Everything about outside she learned this way. I don't give a cue for those behaviors, she does them without prompting.

It seems upon thinking about it, all these have one thing in common. They are bribes, just as if I held a tasty treat out for her to see and sniff and dangled it in front of her while asking her to do something to earn it. 

An obvious and valuable reward she will work for, because she wants the reward, not because she wants to do it for me.

It's as if without a valuable and tangible reward obviously at stake that she values more than a distraction, she sees no reason to comply to any request, I have nothing valuable enough to bribe her with at that point. 

Learning by those methods might have conditioned her to be a "what's in it for me?" dog when she is outside, who feels no need tocomply without an obvious and immedate reward that outweighs a distraction, and outside I hold few rewards she values much besides moving forward when stopped.

Does that make sense?

I also get the impression, though I could be wrong, that she spent her first three years in confinement of a kennel, never experiencing the outside world, with little interaction or socialization with dogs or humans, and the outside world is just overwhelming for her. That simply time and as much exposure as I can give her to as much outside stimulus as I can will help desensitize her to it and make it less exciting and overwhelming for her eventually. Does that make sense?

So basically I started her in a class so I could work on attention under distraction better, and tried the ecollar to help get there. It certainly has her attention, the question is will consistently rewarding it condition compliance later without the collar.



Kaya is easy, for her a kind word from master and a scritch on the head, or a treat, is more valuable than most anything in the world. She was a stray, and the outside world is old hat to her, and a place to be wary of threats in.

I may teach Kaya an attention heel, as she basically does it by default already if lured a bit. That little girl could actually be trained to compete and do well if someone had the desire to train her for it and built her confidence enough. I am not that person though, but I would rehome her to that person if they came along.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

qingcong said:


> If you want her to sit, leash corrections are not going to teach her to sit. This is when positive folks would bust out chopped liver, cheese, whatever it took to get the dog's attention. Your message is sort of like: sit, sit, leash pop, sit, sit, leash pop. From the dog's point of view, "sit" basically becomes a precursor for a leash pop.


It's not meant to teach her to sit, she has already learned that.

They can bust out all the treats they want, she still wouldn't have sat. chopped liver, grilled steak, grillled chicken, tried em all.

My message is that focusing on that squirrel (actually it was another dog) results in an uncomfortable leash pop, remove your focus and comply and the uncomfortable leash pops stop.



> You say that the dog knows how to sit. Sure, but is it really that simple? I can play a certain riff on the guitar at 120bpm, but there's no way I can do it at 160bpm right now. You can't beat me into playing that riff at 160. It appears that to Hope, managing self control with squirrels in sight is like moving the basketball goal 20 feet away.


I'm not asking for something she can't physically do, just asking to put my request at a higher priority than her internal desire. And yes it is very hard for her.

But do realize the leash thing was for someone who asked how she responded to it, and wanted me to try compulsive methods like that, it's a not a normal thing for me to do that to her. It's much more common for me to place a single finger on her back and push her butt gently down, or just stand there for ten minutes until she complies, or some other method.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> An obvious and valuable reward she will work for, because she wants the reward, not because she wants to do it for me.
> 
> It's as if without a valuable and tangible reward obviously at stake that she values more than a distraction, she sees no reason to comply to any request, I have nothing valuable enough to bribe her with at that point.
> 
> ...


Don't dogs always work for the reward? I.e. the follow the cue because they might get a reward out of it? 

So, to me, dogs always work at least as much for their pay (reward) as they do their boss (the handler/owner). 

It does make sense - just have to find that reward that can do it. Do you think you could build up something into a reward, even while outside? I did that with Wally's rope bone that he's now generalized to all his toys. I took it outside and did the same building interest as I did inside (c/t for looking, c/t for pawing, c/t for nose-touching, etc). I then built it into our play sessions, but he had to interact with the toy or the game was over. Biting and carrying getting the toy became his 'job' (as Elana puts it) during our "hunting practice" (that's what they say play is anyway).

Do you think something like that could be possible for your dogs? Would that be something that could work?


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Don't dogs always work for the reward? I.e. the follow the cue because they might get a reward out of it?
> 
> So, to me, dogs always work at least as much for their pay (reward) as they do their boss (the handler/owner).
> 
> ...


Yes they work for rewards, but there is a difference between a dog that will do something for a possible reward, and one that only complies if the reward is shown and offered or teased. That's why we use intermittant rewards and fade rewards and lures. How do you fade the world outside? 

Maybe better that something like that is not used as a reward in the first place?

I tried her ball yesterday, I have been building that one up as it's what she shows most interest in. She has become quite fond of a tennis ball. She plays with it for hours inside, will search the house for 30 minutes to find it when I play hide and seek with it, will always chase it out in the back yard.

Out in front on a walk it holds zero interest. nada.

I must be doing some things right, as Kaya is just the opposite and gives attention quite easily, and I used the exact same approaches on both of them, the same attention rewarding, everything. 

Kaya responds to it outside with ease, does anything I ask of her that she comprehends, Hope does not even though Hope knows commands a lot better than Kaya, learns them much faster, and has been worked with twice as long.

Though with the collar Hope is different. I had her off leash in a big open field yesterday, and even distracted, and with a couple of people approaching that she saw, when I called and used the collar she did an immediate 180 from about 100yds away and ran back to me with tail wagging. She would not have done that a month ago most likely, or rather it would be hit or miss, a coin toss as to whether she would hear and obey. She got a big party when she got to me, petting, back scratch and a hunk of freeze dried liver.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> Originally posted by TxRider:
> Learning by those methods might have conditioned her to be a "what's in it for me?" dog when she is outside, who feels no need tocomply without an obvious and immedate reward that outweighs a distraction, and outside I hold few rewards she values much besides moving forward when stopped.


You really need to read "the Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. 

Dogs do not work to "please us." Period. They work for rewards and to _please themselves._ We are not that important to the dog unless we are providing something they want. Humans who want a dog to "work to please" need to "get over themselves." 

Trust me.. Atka was every bit like Hope in distracted environments. Maybe worse. I got her attention. It was consistant work.

Hope wants to go outside? Use it as her reward. Ask for attention IN the house. Take her out as a reward. Ask for attention just outside the door. If you don't get it, she goes back inside. Repeat the request inside. Step out, repeat the request outside. If you don't get it, back inside. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. If you have the patience outlast her, you WILL get it. W/O an e collar. 

Having Atka focus on my face when in heel was a LOT of work.. but I got it. It is HUGELY beneficial to get the dog to focus on YOU when you ask for it no matter what. 

By saying Hope "cannot" she never will. Trust me. She can. 

Seeing the video(s) were VERY helpful. You do not have a dog that different after all. You have a highly distracted German Shepherd Dog which is more then norm that you can begin to imagine. 

YOU have to come up with ways to BUILD drive and ACCESS to that drive is focus on you.. and by using that thinking you can get focus and build drive INTO focus. 

Bribes work. Dogs work HARD for bribes. Use Bribes to get focus.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> By saying Hope "cannot" she never will. Trust me. She can.


I didn't say she can't. I just don't particularly like an attention heel, and have little desire to take the trouble to teach one, and I know it will be more than a little trouble.

Although, my trainers first remarks last night when Hope was heeling around offleash around a city hall with the other dogs in front and behind, and didn't distract when he heeled his dog right up beside her, basically against her side (Hope heels on my right), was that an attention heel should be the next goal I work on...

Then when he tried a few things to get her to look up to show me what to do with luring and sounds and such, he agreed this would not be easy.



> Seeing the video(s) were VERY helpful. You do not have a dog that different after all. You have a highly distracted German Shepherd Dog which is more then norm that you can begin to imagine.
> 
> YOU have to come up with ways to BUILD drive and ACCESS to that drive is focus on you.. and by using that thinking you can get focus and build drive INTO focus.
> 
> Bribes work. Dogs work HARD for bribes. Use Bribes to get focus.


Remember that vid was last Nov as well, she made a good bit of progress before that, and more between then and now.

No she's not that different, just over the top on the distractions and already 4 years old.

Coming up with ways has been the hard part. I would love to have her give me the "RCA dog" look outside like she does inside...  Every dog I have ever owned has done that for me, Kaya does it for me, Hope is being very difficult to get it from.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Yes they work for rewards, but there is a difference between a dog that will do something for a possible reward, and one that only complies if the reward is shown and offered or teased. That's why we use intermittant rewards and fade rewards and lures. How do you fade the world outside?


Fade is the key word. 

We start with the lure and then fade it and make it more intermittent once the behavior is truly learned. 

I mean, I would love it if Wally did what he was supposed to "to please me" but really, me being happy is probably something he views as a reward. For other dogs, that might not be the case - but either way, it's still working for the reward - the reward is just me in that case.

As far as fading outside - you really can't, which is why you have to work the other end of the scale. If you can lower the outside's value in relation to you, then you have to elevate you over the outside. How you do this likely depends as much on the dog's personality, etc, as anything else. What works for Wally probably won't work for Kaya since they seem to have very different personalities. 



TxRider said:


> Maybe better that something like that is not used as a reward in the first place?


Interacting with the environment? I don't know - I have used what Wally is fixated on as a reward many times. He wants to chase a squirrel in the field, I make him give me something, then let him chase the squirrel. He wants to greet a dog whining at him from behind a fence, he has to give me attention and be under control (no pulling, lunging, be near me) then we can move to the dog. If he gets out of control, then, no meet & greet and we move on.

In each case, the attention has to be steady. No glance at me and stare at whatever. Steady, full, basically a stare contact is acceptable and nothing else.

Again, perhaps it depends on the dog. I've never worked with a super prey-driven working dog before. Wally is in no shape or form a working dog (Cotons, at best, are considered Gun Dogs - probably more like a Retriever than a Shepard) and probably not (very) prey driven either!



TxRider said:


> I tried her ball yesterday, I have been building that one up as it's what she shows most interest in. She has become quite fond of a tennis ball. She plays with it for hours inside, will search the house for 30 minutes to find it when I play hide and seek with it, will always chase it out in the back yard.
> 
> Out in front on a walk it holds zero interest. nada.


Will she look at it? Give it a token sniff? Wally didn't show any seeming interest, but if he looked at it, even a glance, etc - got rewarded. Took a while and it seemed to make no progress for a while, but then something like clicked and he started getting more responsive to it.



TxRider said:


> I must be doing some things right, as Kaya is just the opposite and gives attention quite easily, and I used the exact same approaches on both of them, the same attention rewarding, everything.
> 
> Kaya responds to it outside with ease, does anything I ask of her that she comprehends, Hope does not even though Hope knows commands a lot better than Kaya, learns them much faster, and has been worked with twice as long.
> 
> Though with the collar Hope is different. I had her off leash in a big open field yesterday, and even distracted, and with a couple of people approaching that she saw, when I called and used the collar she did an immediate 180 from about 100yds away and ran back to me with tail wagging. She would not have done that a month ago most likely, or rather it would be hit or miss, a coin toss as to whether she would hear and obey. She got a big party when she got to me, petting, back scratch and a hunk of freeze dried liver.



You're doing some things right for sure - and since you're doing things the same with each - you can probably break down what works for one, not the other, and figure out why. You're being consistent and getting inconsistent results so the dogs are the variable. I.e. what is creating the difference in Hope that she works better with the collar than Kaya. Why is Kaya better then Hope without the collar even though Kaya is the slower-learner, etc.

Seems like you're in position to really break down their personalities, strengths, and weaknesses since you aren't the variable (your method is consistent).


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> As far as fading outside - you really can't, which is why you have to work the other end of the scale. If you can lower the outside's value in relation to you, then you have to elevate you over the outside. How you do this likely depends as much on the dog's personality, etc, as anything else. What works for Wally probably won't work for Kaya since they seem to have very different personalities.


You mean Hope. Kaya views me expressing hapiness as reward now, she is great at it. Hope couldn't care less.



> Interacting with the environment? I don't know - I have used what Wally is fixated on as a reward many times. He wants to chase a squirrel in the field, I make him give me something, then let him chase the squirrel. He wants to greet a dog whining at him from behind a fence, he has to give me attention and be under control (no pulling, lunging, be near me) then we can move to the dog. If he gets out of control, then, no meet & greet and we move on.


I tried that with squirrel chasing, it raised her distraction level ten fold. I really don't want to feed that prey drive like that.




> Will she look at it? Give it a token sniff? Wally didn't show any seeming interest, but if he looked at it, even a glance, etc - got rewarded. Took a while and it seemed to make no progress for a while, but then something like clicked and he started getting more responsive to it.


Nope not token sniff, not a glance.



> You're doing some things right for sure - and since you're doing things the same with each - you can probably break down what works for one, not the other, and figure out why. You're being consistent and getting inconsistent results so the dogs are the variable. I.e. what is creating the difference in Hope that she works better with the collar than Kaya. Why is Kaya better then Hope without the collar even though Kaya is the slower-learner, etc.
> 
> Seems like you're in position to really break down their personalities, strengths, and weaknesses since you aren't the variable (your method is consistent).


To start Kaya has little prey drive, she tends to be wary of all new things. 

Hope has tons of prey drive, and is driven to inspect anything and everything new.

The outside world is interesting to Kaya, but not as interesting as I am.

The outside world is overwhelming for Hope, and she almost forgets I am there completely.

Kaya shows interest in distractions, Hope fixates on them. Hope seems to fixate on whetever is in her mind. I guess you could call it intensity, OCD. Most things she does, she does with an obsessive bent to it.

Anyway, now that I can take her offleash pretty much anywhere and know I can recall her, I have a new world open to work with her in for gaining focus. Now that she does comply, over the distractions, I can also use release as reward if I get her to see it as one.

Now that I can take her a lot more places, I can hopefully flood her with enough new places, new things and new distractions that the world becomes less distracting and more of the same old same old and lower her distraction level by desensitizing. And raise myself as an object of focus while doing so.

All this would have happened anyway over time, she improved significantly in the last year since I got her, and was improving with the new class focusing on working under distraction. Having people to help (it's nice to have someone else who can hold a leash, I live alone), other dogs in controlled environment etc. has helped immensley, I just decided to try the collar as I saw what appeared to be good results and it was recommended to move things along faster.

The ideal long term outcome would be for Hope to fixate on me as much as she does a squirrel now. She will do that outside now if I have her down/stay and walk 50+ feet away, I have her undivided focus then. That is my biggest wedge I can use I think.

There is another issue I have to decide as well. Do I want to completely turn her off of cats and squirrels? I may end up moving across the field from my sister with outdoor cats in a couple of years, in a very rural environment on some acreage. Hope already knows they are there, and seeks to go hunt them if given a chance when I visit and cannot be off leash. I know it can be done, but do I want to do it?


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> Well, I know I wouldn't zap a teen for this behavior.  Instead, I'd go unplug the machine and take it away for a time (negative punishment). I'd even premak it... you can play, after you do x. Physically getting after the teen for playing the video game after my request to stop isn't going to reinforce the behavior of turning off the machine. The teen really isn't going to find stopping his play any more fun if I punish him for playing. On the other hand, you can control access to that very valuable resource (just like you can control your dog's access to the outdoors, sniffing, squirrels, etc.) and practice having your teen do x to earn y as that will change his preference and make x behavior happen more frequently and better than ever over time as he comes to understand the value in doing so.


No, you take video game away and then beat the teen vigorously on the head and shoulders with a hickory switch. 

Dogs are treated with a balanced training program. Never teens.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana,

Thinking about this in more detail...

When I am in the house, and reach for Hope's leash her excitement goes ballistic. She pops her tush on the floor, just waiting for me to hook her up.

She sits at the door, excited to do whatever I ask, will stay as long as I want, and rushed out when released to go. 100% focus on me, salivating for my next command.

This even carries over to about the first 10-20 feet outside on the front walk.

But by the time we get another 40-50 feet to the driveway, what I ask becomes a chore, a drag, drudgery for her.

The behavior she shows inside is what I want outside, maybe without quite so much excitement as she shows before a walk. How would you extend that attitude and behavior outside? With no food or toy or praise interest?

I can now not take her for a walk if need be, as her "go lay down" has become pretty much an off switch for all intents and purposes, and she is not going to be destructive or start up SA issues I am pretty confident.

She will obey now with the collar outside as well, so I have that to work from as well. But the only command she shows such enthusiasm for is a long off leash recall. I assume from all the down/stay long recalls I have done.

She will also down/stay at a pretty long distance, and is totally focused on me, the longer the distance, the more focused on me she is, and the more enthusiasm she shows in getting to me. At 50-75 yards away, I probably even compete with a squirrel for her focus. But sits, downs and heel she seems to see as a chore, something to avoid not something to enthusiastically do.

I was thinking maybe start having a helper hold her leash at that distance, and practice having her sit, down etc from that distance and rewarding her with a recall to me.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Again, you sound like you are asking for too muchy too soon. The INSTANT she shows 'drudgery" she goes BACK IN THE HOUSE. Exactly what she does not want. Hurry to the threshold next time and see if you can get past it. You got to 20 feet at some point? Now go for 25 feet.

I thought the attentive competition heel was too much work.. silly and too intense.. until I found out that training it made my dog more attentive in every thing. Should hve done it from Day One. 

BTW I did not say it was easy. Tonight I watched someone who is probably going to get an OTCH on her current dog (Obedience Title Champion.. it takes a lot of Wins in Utility and Open to get an OTCH). She was working with FOUR distracted German Shpherds. Two were high drive imports. Every one of these dogs she got paying attention to her. They were not always thrilled with it, but they figutre out pretty quickly what was being asked and it was hard.. but these dogs who had not looked at their owners for the entire class were ALL focusing on her in about 5 minutes. 

Atka is MUCH MUCH better than these other German Shepherd dogs about paying attention.. and yet, watching her I learned some new things I am going to try. Getting a dog to focus CAN be HUGE effort. And it is a continuous effort. It is never one of those things you can say, "There. Trained THAT. All done." 

Her dog BTW alomost never loses her focus on this trainer. A very young Doberman (2 years old).


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Again, you sound like you are asking for too muchy too soon. The INSTANT she shows 'drudgery" she goes BACK IN THE HOUSE. Exactly what she does not want. Hurry to the threshold next time and see if you can get past it. You got to 20 feet at some point? Now go for 25 feet.


The loss of attention and drudgery generally begins about 20 feet from the door, as we get about halfway down the drive. That's when the switch from I'll do anything, to what have you done for me lately kicks in.

If I do this, it means no long walks for quite a while.

Class went rather nice tonight, Kaya was up tonight. She got to go offleash as class is at vets office with a couple of fenced acres out back tonight.

There was a totally rambunctious ACD pup and passive little min poodle mix out there, so I felt it might be good for Kaya as they are both half her size. After a bit of being mauled on by the pup, which she responded to without fear, or aggression, and a little time, she actually did a couple of hops and a play bow, before thinking better of it and deciding against it. That makes 5 dogs she has don that to in the 6 months I have had her, 3 of them in the last month.

Then someone showed up with a young boxer her size, who started wrestling with the ACD, and Kaya put me between her and them.

She did very well at everything, a 3 minute stay with me out of sight, and stayed with 10 people walking single file right past her which is very tough for her to handle.

She recovered from that stress very quickly though. She has significantly improved from these class exercises since we have been doing them.

She did a heel weaving between dogs very well as well, and didn't try duck back to hide behind me once.

The collar did seem to have the desired effect withe her a few times I could tell, but at other times when she was stressed it just increased it and she did better when I didn't use it. I am leaning more and more toward ending use of it with her after tonight. It is definitely not having the same effect with her as it does with Hope.

It's like if she is distracted by something it works the same, but if she is stressed and anxiety is kicking in, feeling pressured by something, it just raises the pressure and stress and she does worse than without it when I can use my voice to lower her stress.

Hope never gets stressed in that way.

I don't know what Hope will be doing for a while. She was acting odd when I came home today, ears down, as much as you can tell with her rawhide like ears, and just acting off, kind of moping. I called her to jump up on the sofa with me, and she let out a big yelp when she tried. So she has injured the disk in her back that she had injured a couple of months ago again. She also hasn't eaten today. I suppose the back problem is going to be a recurring issue.

Gave her an anti inflammatory and she'll be resting for at least a day or two, a trip to the vet if she doesn't seem better by this weekend.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Hmm, I was just thinking..

I have been working twice a day in short sessions for about 3 weeks for a good finish from both my dogs, they pretty much have it down now..

It occures to me that Hope looks up at me and focuses at least until she gets her treat after she does this finish, even outside, like she does in the house.

I'm thinking that if I just started with that, and slowly just worked it a little farther each day, spins, turns, side steps, back steps, make a real game of it and a challenge, and slowly worked it outside, maintaining that attention, getting Hope to do an attention heel outside might not be as hard as I have been thinking.

In fact I think I'm going to do it with both Hope and Kaya, and start working that direction starting in the house and slowly working to move it outside and into a heel over the next month or two.

Should I teach a different command for an attention heel? That's how my trainer has his dogs trained. Heel just means stay in position, foos means a snappy attention heel.

I don't want my dogs in an attention heel everywhere I take them where they need might to heel for any distance. And I don't want them "free" either.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I absolutely HATE using German Commands on dogs (even in Schutzhund) IN THE US. Even Schutzhund rules state commands to be given _in the hanlder's native language._ I do not speak good German. I speak English as my Native Languge. 

I know.. all the tripe about bad guys commanding the dogs.. bla bla bla. Most dogs won't generalize a command between locations iwth the SAME handler. Getting them to generalize between handlers is a whole nother method of training. 

OK. Rant over. Sorry. Pet Peeve. 

I Use "By Me" for heel position w/o her complete 100% focus. "Heel" OTOH means look at my face AND heel position. 

Remember too that if your dog is just starting this focus while walking it will take a while for them to learn how to look at you, trust you not to run them over a cliff and keep walking.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I absolutely HATE using German Commands on dogs (even in Schutzhund) IN THE US. Even Schutzhund rules state commands to be given _in the hanlder's native language._ I do not speak good German. I speak English as my Native Languge.
> 
> I know.. all the tripe about bad guys commanding the dogs.. bla bla bla. Most dogs won't generalize a command between locations iwth the SAME handler. Getting them to generalize between handlers is a whole nother method of training.
> 
> ...


Well they already know "Heel" for staying in position by me, and I will have to use it for that for classes, and all the things I do now, so I was kind of thinking of using a different command for attention heel. 

Foos just seemed convenient, it could be tacco for all I care or something else catchy or cute for it... but I'll need to decide pretty soon....


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I misread foos as focus (which made Elana's rant somewhat of a non-sequitur), maybe you could use that?


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> I misread foos as focus (which made Elana's rant somewhat of a non-sequitur), maybe you could use that?


Makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well no training for Hope for a week or two.

She had a back issue in Nov, and it has flared up again. She spent the morning being sedated and xrayed at the vets, and a radiologist should be reporting on it Monday. She's in obvious pain and is going to be house bound and resting on predisone and muscle relaxers for a while.

Poor girl is all wonky from the sedation, has the runs as after not eating for 24hrs I put some cooking grease and chicken of her food to get her to eat, and her back is obviously hurting her.

Another reason I need to control her squirrel chasing, I'm betting she hurt it this time chasing them in the back yard.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

So I was going to take hope out for a 1k fun run Saturday for charity to support some local rescues.

Instead she was being sedated and her spine x-rayed at the vets so while I had a couple of hours to kill I took Kaya instead. I wasn't going to take her initially because I thought a few hundred people and dogs might be bit more than would be good for her.

I didn't do the run, it was over by then, we just walked around to all the rescue booths, took a walk by the lake, and then went and hung out by the soccer fields where the kids were running and yelling. She did just fine, it was good for her. She met several other dogs, and people, and she is starting to get more confident in it.

Anyway while Hope is going to be out of training class until her back is better and I wanted to have a try at this attention heel stuff, I decided the best way to start would be perch training, and to do it outdoors. So I picked up a 10x12 slab of 2" thick sandstone out back. laid it on the pool deck, and started in on it.

Since Kaya turned out to be clicker phobic, I have been "loading the clicker" with a "yes!" for a couple of weeks in earnest, with her current known command etc., both her and Hope actually.

So I got some liver treats and had a go. After two sessions Kaya might be starting to get it, hard to tell as she still fails somewhat randomly and at other times seems to do it with some purpose. She just has some metal issue with connecting voice to anything, or maybe sounds in general to anything, or maybe just cause and effect. 

I'm thinking she's either just not that sharp, or has problems connecting cause and effect. Maybe why she is so cautious and sound phobic, because she simply can't make sense of things. She'll get it eventually, and when she does she will be very proud and very eager to do what she's learned.

Hope on other hand, showed me her intelligence once again. She didn't want to put her feet on the "perch" and stepped all around it. So I just led her away and back towards until she did step on it, said "yes!" and a treat, and led her away and back and she didn't step on it right away, but did step on it after a few seconds, another "yes!" and it clicked for her after those two marks. That's all it took from her and she has it down pat, and now if I hold my hand closed backside down over the perch, she plants feet on it in an obvious manner. She is one very intelligent and clever girl. I so wish I had her as a young pup.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

TxRider said:


> It's not meant to teach her to sit, she has already learned that.


She has not learned to sit in that particular situation.



> My message is that focusing on that squirrel (actually it was another dog) results in an uncomfortable leash pop, remove your focus and comply and the uncomfortable leash pops stop.


I started out wanting the best of both worlds, the quick results accomplished by positive punishment and the happy compliance accomplished by positive reinforcement. I realized that it is very difficult to pull that off without hitting on the negative side effects of positive punishment. By focusing solely on positive reinforcement, I was able to finally make progress because the dog actually learned what to do. He did not learn what to do from punishment. 





> I'm not asking for something she can't physically do, just asking to put my request at a higher priority than her internal desire. And yes it is very hard for her.


Using the learning theory model of a dog, we need to understand that dogs never reach a point where they know the meaning of a command. It doesn't matter that they've done it 50,000 times on fire and ice, they don't form definitions for words in their head. They know how to perform the action of sitting, but the word "sit" is not equivalent to the action. The word "sit" is a cue to perform that action. In the video, you are not actually making it clear to her that she has a choice between sitting and fixating. You think that is the case, but that is humanizing.

She needs to learn to sit in that situation before you can give her to cue to sit.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

qingcong said:


> Using the learning theory model of a dog, we need to understand that dogs never reach a point where they know the meaning of a command. It doesn't matter that they've done it 50,000 times on fire and ice, they don't form definitions for words in their head.


And you are sure of this how?



> They know how to perform the action of sitting, but the word "sit" is not equivalent to the action. The word "sit" is a cue to perform that action. In the video, you are not actually making it clear to her that she has a choice between sitting and fixating. You think that is the case, but that is humanizing.
> 
> She needs to learn to sit in that situation before you can give her to cue to sit.


As I said, she has sat in that situation, within a few feet of that spot, many times. And she has done it while being distracted pretty much every time.

It is a case of internal motivations competing. Focus on the known sit cue, or focus on the distraction. Both have positive consequences, one is simply stronger.

She knows full well what was being asked, what behavior I wanted her to perform.

And without giving her a cue, how is she to learn if she will not sit? should I just force her into a sit every time without saying a word? A food item certainly won't get it done.

The motivation to focus on the cue needs to be stronger than the motivation to focus on the distraction. That can be achieved through any of the four quads of operant conditioning, but as food or praise cannot be more motivating, positive reinforcement is not going to get it done in that situation.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

TxRider said:


> And you are sure of this how?


I'm not, but it's the model that is given, and it is guaranteed to be 100% within the confines of the dog's cognitive ability. Once you start guessing at what they _might_ be capable of, you unfairly bestow upon them the responsibilities associated with such abilities. If you are working with what they are actually capable of, then you have a much better chance at cracking into their brains.



> As I said, she has sat in that situation, within a few feet of that spot, many times. And she has done it while being distracted pretty much every time.


That doesn't mean she knows it, every correct response is simply another grain of sand that tips the scale in favor of the dog doing it correctly again.



> She knows full well what was being asked, what behavior I wanted her to perform.


And you are sure of this how? 



> And without giving her a cue, how is she to learn if she will not sit? should I just force her into a sit every time without saying a word? A food item certainly won't get it done.


How did you teach her to sit in the first place? You certainly do not repeat "sit sit sit sit" to teach it. With every behavior you teach, you have to teach it before you give the cue. This is no different.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

qingcong said:


> I'm not, but it's the model that is given, and it is guaranteed to be 100% within the confines of the dog's cognitive ability. Once you start guessing at what they _might_ be capable of, you unfairly bestow upon them the responsibilities associated with such abilities. If you are working with what they are actually capable of, then you have a much better chance at cracking into their brains.


and having seen her perform this behavior on cue thousands of times previously over a year, guessing about capability is not the the way I would describe it.




> That doesn't mean she knows it, every correct response is simply another grain of sand that tips the scale in favor of the dog doing it correctly again.


And every red light is another grain of sand that tips the scale in favor of me using my brakes and stopping again. I know red light means stop. She knows sit means to sit. after thousands of repetitions, at some point, you are deemed to "know" meaning you understand what is expected of, a cue.



> How did you teach her to sit in the first place? You certainly do not repeat "sit sit sit sit" to teach it. With every behavior you teach, you have to teach it before you give the cue. This is no different.


Capturing a sit with a clicker, a year previously. Her very first learned cue.

It was then practiced over the course of a year starting in the house, each time she goes in and out the door, in the car, at petco, and at petsmart every week, at the vets office, at my parents land, at work in my office, on daily 2-3 mile walks twice a day about once every block, on walks at the lake, walking to town, in the back yard, on top of picnic tables at the park, on top of boulders by the lake, and many times within a few feet, if not on the exact same spot that I asked for it on in the video for about a full year.

You will not in any way ever convince me that she was not completely aware that I was asking her to put her butt on the ground and sit. She was simply more motivated to focus on the distraction than on my cue.

Exactly how many thousands of times do you need to observe a dog sit on cue in a huge variety of locations and environments on cue before you can expect it understand that the cue sit, means to put your butt on the ground and say the dog "knows" what sit means?

She understood what I wanted, without any doubt whatsoever. And she did comply, even though she didn't want to. Had the cue been "down" she would have done that instead. Had the cue been "roll over" or even "heel" at that time she would not have rolled over or heeled no matter what the correction was as she did not understand those cues, or not well enough.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

The short answer is, if it does not perform the cue for any reason, it does not know it.

The long answer is, if it does not perform the cue and there is a overriding distraction, it does not know to sit during that overriding distraction.

There's a even longer answer that I'm too tired to give now.

The purpose is to avoid using an action to justify punishing for a reason that we cannot accurately guess. The behavior should be punished, not the thought process.

I.e. (just picking the example out of thin air) if a dog was pulling on the leash towards another dog. The dog turns towards the handler then turns back to the dog.

Handler A would see that as a dog that knew what she was doing, and tried to ignore the handler's cues, and turned to ask them to let them go so they can approach the dog. Since that's the dog's intentions, she should be punished for doing so. (what punishment used is irrelevant)

Handler B would wee the dog turn to them and give the jackpot of a lifetime. It doesn't matter that it's "possible" the intentions was to ignore my cue, or that the intentions was to ask me to let her go, or anything else. What matters is the behavior she showed was one of turning towards the handler, and for that she got a jackpot. Handler B would get in the dog's face, pull out a entire bag full of steak, chicken, kibble, NB roll, a tug toy, water, talk in a high, happy voice, dance in circles around the dog, cuddle, belly rub the dog all in the middle of the street with the neighbors watching.

For all Handler B knows, the dog's intent was to try to persuade the handler to let her go, but that doesn't matter.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> The short answer is, if it does not perform the cue for any reason, it does not know it.
> 
> The long answer is, if it does not perform the cue and there is a overriding distraction, it does not know to sit during that overriding distraction.


I guess that would depend on your definition of "know".

To me "know" simply means the dog comprehends what I am asking of it.

By that definition you are saying it is impossible for a dog to comprehend what the handler is asking of it, but decide not to comply because a competing motivation is more rewarding, or stronger in some way like fear etc. 

That it is always a failure to comprehend what the handler wants, and never anything else.

I give dogs a bit more credit in the comprehension and free will department for that to hold true, and I believe most would.

You must be using the word "know" with a different meaning.

Like a dog with a bulletproof recall may well not recall if it involves jumping off a cliff or running through a fire to do so. It fully understands the handler and the cue, it "knows" "come" it has intense desire to recall, but the fear of jumping off the cliff overrides it. It may obviously struggle with the decision, but it will decide to comply or not depending on which motivation is stronger.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> Handler B would wee the dog turn to them and give the jackpot of a lifetime. It doesn't matter that it's "possible" the intentions was to ignore my cue, or that the intentions was to ask me to let her go, or anything else. What matters is the behavior she showed was one of turning towards the handler, and for that she got a jackpot. Handler B would get in the dog's face, pull out a entire bag full of steak, chicken, kibble, NB roll, a tug toy, water, talk in a high, happy voice, dance in circles around the dog, cuddle, belly rub the dog all in the middle of the street with the neighbors watching.


I don't really see the example as relevant, the behavior that was "punished" was the behavior of focusing on the distraction.

But going on what does handler B do if before the handler can even pull out a treat the dog returns to focus on the distraction, and during that whole party, the dog does nothing but try to get around the handler to maintain focus on the distraction, doesn't even sniff the food or toy, and simply wants the handler out of it's face and blocking it's view clearly annoyed with the handlers behavior?


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

TxRider said:


> And what does handler B do if during that whole party, the dog does nothing but try to get around the handler to maintain focus on the distraction, doesn't even sniff the food or toy, and simply wants the handler out of it's face and blocking it's view?


Then you're over threshold and beyond the dog's ability to make the right choice.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

TxRider said:


> I guess that would depend on your definition of "know".
> 
> To me "know" simply means the dog comprehends what I am asking of it.
> 
> ...


It's not about giving more credit in the comprehension and free will department. I think my dogs are intelligent, of that I have no doubt. But the fact they did not comply due to an overriding factor does not tell me anything other than that I set them up to fail. It does not tell me anything about how to train them, unless it's used to justify punishment.

EDIT: And RaeganW is correct, if all of that can't possibly distract them, then they are way over threshold, way way way way way way over it.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Then you're over threshold and beyond the dog's ability to make the right choice.


That is a fair description, but is different from the dog not comprehending there even is a choice, which is another definition of over threshold I see used a lot.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> It's not about giving more credit in the comprehension and free will department. I think my dogs are intelligent, of that I have no doubt. But the fact they did not comply due to an overriding factor does not tell me anything other than that I set them up to fail. It does not tell me anything about how to train them, unless it's used to justify punishment.


Or unless it is used to justify more foundation work in focus and attention, or to justify training in a less distracting environment, or to use higher value rewards, or... well... how to train them.

What you saw was the result of someone asking to see her response to a collar correction for non compliance with a known command. The result was grudging compliance.

It would be rather ineffective with her to do that every time she didn't comply, as without getting a lot more punitive it would not change her behavior, as well as being annoying. So I seek other methods.

But that has little to do with her "knowing" the command. She was cognitively aware of the cue and it's associated behavior.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well Hope is going to be confined to the house for a while, on steroids and muscle relaxers..

Kaya went to class tonight, the class is helping her a lot.

I think back to when I started this class, and Kaya would not take a treat from the trainer, or even from me at times. She was a ball of nerves.

Tonight he did great. She heeled between the other dogs pretty well, she auto sat at every stop, she did nice sit/down/sit/down..

I have been paying close attention and working with her stress, redirecting her when she starts going into her mode of escalating her own stress. Learning how to get her mind off it and then amp her motivation up a bit.

And wonder of wonders, after class I let her off leash with a couple of huskies and she actually ran out all bouncy and played bit, I was shocked. first time I have seen her do that with a dog she didn't know well.

I think I may start doing less classes for bit, and start working more to get Kaya to play with me. I think if I can get her to play, to tug, to let go and give it her all, to not be afraid to physically challenge me in play, it would help her confidence grow everywhere else, help her focus, help our relationship and she can become a pretty normal dog in the end.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I think I may start doing less classes for bit, and start working more to get Kaya to play with me. I think if I can get her to play, to tug, to let go and give it her all, to not be afraid to physically challenge me in play, it would help her confidence grow everywhere else, help her focus, help our relationship and she can become a pretty normal dog in the end.



Yeah, it did wonders for Wally. Once he started playing physically with me, it's like suddenly he broke some kind of mental wall. 

Like Kaya, he had to break the first mental wall of getting to play that way with me. He would chase and fetch, but never tug or try to bite, claw, paw at the toy/me.

I have to watch those nails, though. If I cover the toy or a treat, he'll claw at my hand - I know it's in fun (or excitement) but it can hurt after a while 

Those play bites (when he misses the toy) - I just thank goodness he's just a 12 lb dog


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I'm just psyched she went out and tried to play with other dogs tonight, that was a huge step for her. I'm pretty encouraged by it.


----------



## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

Congrats! I love following this thread and reading your posts about Kaya and Hope. Sounds great that she is finally beginning to play with other dogs! =D


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I tried a flirt pole with Kaya today, and it worked pretty well for a few minutes. She has little stamina after her heartworm treatment and lost interest quickly when she got winded.

I also go a donut tug toy, but she will not bite it if I am holding it. She did go pounce on it 2-3 time when I rolled it away across the yard, then lost interest.

I plan to keep trying though, I also have to get her doing some more strenuous exercising and getting her built up a bit somehow.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

ALWAYS quit play BEFORE the dog is ready to quit. Something to remember with Kaya and her heat worm treatment. If she got tired after 5 minutes, only play for three. This makes for a more motivated dog next time.

Take a 3-4 foot section of clothes line and tie it to the tug donut and you pull the line and she pulls the donut. My dog is not real confident by nature (not been abused and not a rescue.. just HER). That is how I got her to play tug. She will... and she likes it (not to the point of obsession like some dogs) but she prefers to have a bit of distance. She will aggressively take and pull one toy I have set up with a line like this to the point where I really do need gloves. 

BTW how is Hope's back? Long backed dogs (like GSD's ) do get back issues including a degenerative condition at they grow older requiring Rymadil or some other arthris and anti inflammatory medication daily. Kazi, who was German bred and who worked HARD her whole life had to have this the last 4 years of her life (lived to be almost 14). Just something to remember with these dogs.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> ALWAYS quit play BEFORE the dog is ready to quit. Something to remember with Kaya and her heat worm treatment. If she got tired after 5 minutes, only play for three. This makes for a more motivated dog next time.
> 
> BTW how is Hope's back? Long backed dogs (like GSD's ) do get back issues including a degenerative condition at they grow older requiring Rymadil or some other arthris and anti inflammatory medication daily. Kazi, who was German bred and who worked HARD her whole life had to have this the last 4 years of her life (lived to be almost 14). Just something to remember with these dogs.


I think I'll stick to Hope's flirt pole fo a while with her. That seem to work well.

Hope is not doing well, she starting to scare me this morning. She has been on prednisone twice daily, going to once daily starting yesterday.

She started having a tremor in her right jaw muscle a couple of days ago, and this morning 24hrs after her last pred dose she is shaking all over a bit and not well. I hope it's just the effect of cutting the pred dose down, and I got her dose into her this mornining. If she is not better within a couple of hours she's going to the E-vet as mine is closed.

Last time the back problem happened it was about a month before she was back to normal, and it's only been a week so far this time.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Canines do not tolerate Prednisalone or Prednisone as well as cats do. How much are you giving the dog and what is the taper off dosage days? If you withdraw the drug too soon quickly it can cause issues. If you give too much it can cause issues. If you give it too long it can cause issues. That being said, it can also be a life saver drug. 

Here is a link you might want to read:
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/prednisone-side-effects-in-dogs.html'

The information seems good.. but I have to say I don't trust MOST of the websites out there on Animal health. The "natural" ones promote homeopathic remedies that are largely untested and unregualted as they fall under the category of "supplements." Meanhwhile the sites tend to trash conventional therapy. And it can go the otehr way with drug company sites... 

I have not read anything about tremors being part of this. What concerns me is that your dog may have some other issue that is not injury related at all. Sometimes it appears something is due to an injury but ends up being something else entirely. 

This is, of course, a discussion you need to have with your vet.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well he had her on 30mg twice a day, and cut down to 30mg once a day starting yesterday.

So she got her dose yesterday morning, and is obviously distressed this morning.

This isn't her first time on pred, but I haven't seen this before. Pred shuts off the adrenal system though, which i why it has to be weaned off.

I know dogs will crash, even fatally within 24 hours, if a high dose of pred is withdrawn at once, so I'm hoping this is what is going on. If so it's cutting it a bit close for me.

I got her dose this morning, had to give her some turkey breast to get her to eat it, she usually snarfs up the pill pockets.

Her distress, trembling etc. seems to be subsiding now. I was about to scoop her up and get to the E-vet, but I had a couple of phone calls and had to deal with my bank sending off $1,200 to my old mortgage company, after being notified not to, as I just refinanced with a new company so I'm $1,200 short and my checking balance is pretty slim at the moment.

I gave her her dose about 8:45 I think and have been watching her every move. She started looking better about 10:30 and she's looking more normal now. Breathing better and the tremors are gone now at 11:30 and she seems much better, at least not in some form of crisis, the pred and her pain I guess make her pretty off her normal attitude and behavior.

I think she was going into a pred withdrawal crisis. From what I understand that is fatal within about 24 hours if the pred is withdrawn. I'll likely give her a small dose tonight to keep it from happening again tomorrow morning and call my vet first thing in the morning and talk to him.

Now I have to calm down a bit, my adrenaline was running pretty high there for a few hours.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I too was wondering if the prednisone witdraw was too much too soon. Since you are tapering her off, maybe you should split this dose in two give 1/2 at night and 1/2 in the morning.. 15 mg 2X a day. 

Yes.. the stuff turns off the dog's adrenals. Some times if the dose is high enough long enough you create Cushings or Addisons and the Adrenals never turn back ON. Talk to your vet. Let us know what he says (learning here is always good.. someone else may need to know).


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I too was wondering if the prednisone witdraw was too much too soon. Since you are tapering her off, maybe you should split this dose in two give 1/2 at night and 1/2 in the morning.. 15 mg 2X a day.
> 
> Yes.. the stuff turns off the dog's adrenals. Some times if the dose is high enough long enough you create Cushings or Addisons and the Adrenals never turn back ON. Talk to your vet. Let us know what he says (learning here is always good.. someone else may need to know).


That's what I am thinking as well, and was my first thought.

It seems you need to drop dosage times though, and give the system reason to start back up. The mode my vet has is drop to once a day, then every other day for a while, then stop. She has only been on a 20mg dose before though.

Seems it was too much, she's resting seemingly pretty comfortably and seems a bit exhausted from the experience right now. She hasn't eaten anything so I hand fed her some which ate eagerly enough. She seems at ease as much as can be expected without any more signs of distress.

Her body language, breathing and the shaking was serious distress this morning, scared the poop out of me. I'm going to give 10mg tonight just to make sure this doesn't happen again until I talk to my vet.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Just to note Hope is back to herself this evening, doing just fine now. begging food and digging up bugs out back as she has been and perky as can be expected.

And I haven't heard a yelp from her today either, which is a good sign.

EDIT: Heh, Hope has trained Kaya in the feel good of crittering, she caught the little possum last night and almost got another one tonight. It got away but I could see it in the bushes up over the top of the fence, hiding.

There's a momma possum around here somewhere and I guess her litter just got old enough to start wandering around, my back yard is a bad place for them to start.

I found the back leg of the one they got ahold of last night out in the yard, or rather Hope found it and took it away before she could eat it.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Ok I gave Hope 10mg last night, she was fine this morning.

I called my vet and had a talk.

He says there is no chance it was a prednisone withdrawal yesterday morning, that something else was going on.

He threw out a few possibilities, but not knowing her history we're both at a bit of a loss.

I described that she has been clacking her jaw off and on for a few days, that I can see the muscles on one side of her head going, and her teeth chattering and that i had not seen that before in the year I have had her.

And that she has been yelping seemingly at random, lying down or walking.

And that yesterday morning she was shivering, like I would if I was in the middle of say a flu with a fever and chills or something. And that as the pred dose and muscle relaxer kicked in, she rested as if it had tired her out and them was much better yesterday evening.

We're going on an assumption it was likely just pain, but the teeth chattering thing has him wondering if some neuro issue is going on.

Anyway I told him I'll just go back on the weaning off regimen, and if I see any more issues I'm not expecting I'll scoop her up and bring her in. She's looking better now than she has for week, and I haven't heard a yelp since before yesterday morning.

He seems to be leaning toward sending her out for a CT scan, but I just don't have the cash handy at he moment to do so. Though I likely will in a couple of weeks.

Another note, posting about this stuff has a nice effect, I posted about her last back episode like this, and I have been using it to look back as it's a better record than my memory can provide. Last time she was still yelping at times for a good two weeks, and not back to normal for a month.

I am sure regretting not buying health insurance for her right after I adopted her.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Has she been tested for Lyme or other tick born diseases? 

As I said previously, I am wondering if there is another disease process at work here.. maybe even a seizure disorder.... Sounds like the vet is thinking along those lines as well. 

If she keeps on randomly chattering her teeth or doing any other neurological type behavior talk to him/her about a CT scan. Have him tell you its efficacy in finding a source. Sometimes a test/scan is run to see if you can find something with the actual findings from such a test in a canine being slim to none (in which case you keep your money). 

I have a cat with what we "think" is pancreatitis (it does not manifest clearly in cats like it does in dogs). We could spend thousands and find out for sure.. or we can treat her with prednisone and see how it goes.. working off a guess. I opted for the latter and life is good.. and a lot less expensive.

I ALWAYS would rather KNOW FOR SURE . Eventually you CAN know for sure on any diagnosis. Getting that can be hugely expensive. Meanwhile, the treatment for the symptoms and a best guess diagnosis is readily available, and you will know if it helps in days or weeks. If money were never an issue I would always opt for more knowledge... 

Money is always part of the issue. We do our best.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Has she been tested for Lyme or other tick born diseases?
> 
> As I said previously, I am wondering if there is another disease process at work here.. maybe even a seizure disorder.... Sounds like the vet is thinking along those lines as well.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if something else isn't going on as well. And the vet is looking to upgrade the diagnostics too.

I really don't think yesterday was a seizure type thing, but he was definitely thinking that way. She had no look of disorientation, no falling or lack of control, more like what I would describe as chills or something and just looking as if she felt very bad with pain or fear or something. Closer to what Kaya does in thunder storm. She was still looking up if I said her name but looking way miserable.

I think the CT scan is to look at her spine and discs and possible organ issues because an Xray just didn't show anything really conclusive. I think he still thinks she has a disc issue but can't rule out other things as possible. His explanation was that her discs showed proper separation, and no narrowing of spinal canal, but the discs themselves do not show up well as they are soft tissue, unless they are calcified.

He asked about her history, and mentioned something about possible distemper in her past, but I have little idea of history other than she was bred, starved close to death, had mange and bad ear infections and was seized for neglect. Anything else is just a guess.

I do find it a little interesting that after yesterday mornings episode, she has not yelped again yet, and her jaw hasn't clacked like that either, but it's only been one day. She isn't herself yet or close to it, but she seems noticeably better than she has for the last week. More head up, more eye contact, more tail wagging, moving around better. But then disc issues can do that I guess, just resolve if a disc moves or something and stop hurting I suppose.

She also just recently, a week before this episode, had a "wellness check" with a blood workup and such he likes to do annually. I think I may take a closer look at how extensive the testing was.

They also have a web service I can sign up for that allows me to access to her records etc. on their site, and I think I will sign up for that today.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Ear infections, if severe enough, can cause inner ear issues (and neurological symptoms) even after they are cured (scar tissue etc.). Starvation at certain stages of development can also creat neurological issues (developmental issues). 

Just tossing ideas out there. Problem is that a dog can only exhibit a limited number of symptoms for an unlimited number of disease processes. I looked up "tremors" in the 5 minute Vet Consult....

https://www.vetconnect.com.au/5min/data/01680169.htm


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Ear infections, if severe enough, can cause inner ear issues (and neurological symptoms) even after they are cured (scar tissue etc.). Starvation at certain stages of development can also creat neurological issues (developmental issues).
> 
> Just tossing ideas out there. Problem is that a dog can only exhibit a limited number of symptoms for an unlimited number of disease processes. I looked up "tremors" in the 5 minute Vet Consult....
> 
> https://www.vetconnect.com.au/5min/data/01680169.htm


Great link there.

None of it seems to match up well though.

My vet did also mention menengitis/encephalitis, but since it was just for a few hours it wouldn't make sense to me.

They describe seizures as • Seizures are intermittent and associated with autonomic disturbances (e.g., urination, defecation, and salivation) and alterations of consciousness. 
And she had no alteration of consciousness I could see.

They also mention the term shuddering, which might be more accurate.

The jaw thing seemed involutary, like an eye twitch or something, lasting a few minutes. Just the muscles on one side of her face.

The shuddering was head, shoulders, front legs. And the best description I could give would be what I might do if I had a bad flu and was achy and was shivering from chills.

It seemed it was an event she felt relieved and relaxed after and she rested for a few hours afterward when the pred and muslce relaxer kicked in, though that could be unrelated I guess, and then seemed fine.

She is still pretty reserved, and though she was paying more attention to the squirrels out back this morning, she would not run to chase them, more of a slow trot. Just like the sofa, she looks up there obviously considering jumping up and wanting to be up there, but then decides not to. Last time she did it was a pretty good yelp.

But there is more spark in her eye since yesterday afternoon, less obvious head down moping, more interest in the usual things, a little more active, some tail waggin etc. alert for squirrels, that tells me she feels a lot better. But Hope not dashing after a squirrel of her own choice, especially when Kaya is dashing after it full bore, is a sign to me she's been getting some serious pain.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Seizure disorders can manifest in other ways than what is described on that site. Dogs that bite the wall or the air (like snapping at flies) or stare vacantly for noticeable time periods can be exhibiting seizure disorder. 

What has me wondering about Hope is that she was tired and slept a good stint AFTER the shuddering which is typical of a dog having a seizure. My thought is she may have two things going on at once. 

However, the link above also leads to doing a CT scan. The 5 minute veterinary consult site is a good one. My vets use their books as references. They give me their old ones.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Seizure disorders can manifest in other ways than what is described on that site. Dogs that bite the wall or the air (like snapping at flies) or stare vacantly for noticeable time periods can be exhibiting seizure disorder.
> 
> What has me wondering about Hope is that she was tired and slept a good stint AFTER the shuddering which is typical of a dog having a seizure. My thought is she may have two things going on at once.
> 
> However, the link above also leads to doing a CT scan. The 5 minute veterinary consult site is a good one. My vets use their books as references. They give me their old ones.


Yup but as I haven't seen anything like that in the year I have had her, and it seems to be gone, I'll stay with the drugs and time and watch for any issues and see what happens over the next coupe of weeks.

I think if she gets better like last time, but it reoccurs again later, I'm going to go to the CT scan etc.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I am feeling a lot better now, relieved actually, about Hope.

I cut back on the prednisone as called for, and she is doing very well now. No yelping, no jaw clacking, no distress signs since Sunday morning.

In fact she is looking quite good, getting playful, wagging tail more like usual, though she still won't bolt after a squirrel out back, paw dirt, or stretch or shake anything but her head. 

But much more back to normal self otherwise. Impossible to tell if she's feeling pain, or just afraid to do those things because it hurt before when she did them.

I think I have to say with all considered that the behavior last week and Sunday was more likely just due to a lot of constant pain than anything else I can think of. Seeing her feel obviously better sure takes an emotional load off.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Good. Glad to hear it. 

Now if you can use an aversive (back pain) to get a dog to not shake or chase squirrels...... (Just kidding). 

Good to hear she is feeling better.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Good. Glad to hear it.
> 
> Now if you can use an aversive (back pain) to get a dog to not shake or chase squirrels...... (Just kidding).
> 
> Good to hear she is feeling better.


Thanks,

I am certainly not going to encourage her to resume chasing them, if she wants to stop going so nuts to do so I will encourage that change. I plan to try anyway, but I have pretty low expectations.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

ROFL, new development for Kaya.

I have been trying to get Kaya to play with me for some time, she might for a minute, but just seems to lack confidence to do so.

I came home from work and was out in the yard today enjoying the perfect weather and the new grass I had sodded in a couple of weeks ago.

I was laying on my back watching the birds, and scratching Kaya on the head as she always comes to lay at my side when in lay in the grass and nuzzle me for affection.

As I got up, I decided try a play bow just to see what she would do, I laid on my forearms and stuck my rump up in the air and wiggled.. Wow! she reacted big time to it! immediately started jumping around me, playing and nipping my heels, wrestling a bit and even grabbed my arm in her mouth a few times.

We ran around the yard a bit, I did a bit of backing up patting legs to keep her playing, best play session we have ever had.

The she decided to go shoulder slam Hope, and wrestle her, and Hope being hurt was about to seriously take her head off when I intervened. Play time over.

Interesting reaction though, she definitely reacted as I haven't seen her do before, and seemed to take it as liberty to nip bite and mouth me and wrestle a bit with great enthusiasm. She is such an odd little dog, but I think I'll be leaving Hope inside for play sessions for a while.

Off to class in an hour.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I want photos of you doing the play bow... Especially the butt wiggling in the air!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't think so.. No pics... 

The problem is I can't play with her like a dog, as I'm not a dog, so she doesn't really know what to do exactly. She certainly recognized the invitation though.

But if she learns it's safe to play with me it's all I really want, and I should be able to transition to tug and opening up a bit easier.

Even better, at class tonight during recall exercises two wiggly overexcited and noisy boxers got all in her space, all in her face, and she didn't bite. She was freaking out, trying to get away from them, not going into fear aggression as she did when I first got her. Tonight would have been waaay over her threshold 6 months ago and she would have lost it and snapped.

After the owner got them away she was amped and initiating play with me in a kind of displacement way it seemed, like displaced aggression, which was a new reaction to that kind of thing. Normally she would be wrapped up in my legs trying to hide for ten minutes.

She may end up being a rather normal dog in the end if this keeps up.

I am still using the ecollar with her, and I am still seeing no good or bad effects or results. I don't think she would behave any different without it.

Poor girl came home, ate, and is splayed out on the sofa sound asleep with her tongue poking out of the front of her mouth a bit.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LOL I play bowed for Wally before and all he did was lick my face.

Such a lame reaction. I want what Kaya gave you 

If I lay on my back, he'll drop what he's doing and come stand on me...and lick my face. Then he'll get all comfortable and lie down, put one of his corn chip, vacuum bag smelling paws on my mouth (BLEH!) and start licking me all over my face, ears, hair and sniffing me to death.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Heh, Kaya will not lick my face, or lick me at all really. She doesn't put her face close to mine and is aversive about it.

The only time she really actively does anything in contact with me is nudge me for more petting, and even then she's submissive and overtly polite about it usually.

Even after about 7 months, without so much as a yell at her, she doesn't totally trust me and is still wary of me to a degree. And every time I step on a land mine and make a beep or a click or something that triggers her sound phobic thing I lose a few hard earned trust points.

Last time was just the click of me opening my pocket knife too hard.

Her feet reek btw, I wonder if fear and stress make their feet stinkier. I can smell hers from several feet away sometimes.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Poor Hope,

Hope is OCD on food as a side effect from 2 weeks of prednisone, and hasn't had a lick of exercise for two weeks.. Vets orders for her back. She's a train wreck.

The whole teaching her what "show me" means, and that I will get her what she wants if she can communicate to me what that is to reinforce it, can get a little old in this situation. Like a kid tugging at your sleeve all day.

She knows "no" as well, which is basically whatever your focused on, stop it and focus on something else. I can simply tell her no when she's asking for something, but she gives you such a pleading look and little whine, and looks so disappointed if you say no, I can't say no very much.

I got her a buster cube to put her kibble meals in and to try to stretch out her meals so she isn't bugging me 24/7, but I found buster cubes and tile floors are a bit incompatible.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Take this opportunity to do non physical training like the Doggy Zen game, getting Hope to put her foot on a disc.. then on a specific part of a disc.. Work on Touch.. get her to touch/target with her nose. Change up what she does. 

Get out that lclicker and see if you can teach her to pick things up and put them in a box or anywhere else. Teach her "find" and teach her what different items are. For instance, teach her what your keys are and then teach her to get you keys out of a pile of other stuff. Tsame with cell phone or anything else you might misplace. None of these things are difficult physically and you can do them in the house. 

Poodleholic tells stories of her dogs finiding her misplaced keys and cell phone etc. so it is useful stuff to teach.

And it will get her thinking and thinking can be very very tiring for a dog. You will learn a lot too.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I taught her to put her feet on a perch last week, named it focus. She now does it on command well if I'm within ten feet of it. I was going to get her to rotate and keep her paws on it but her back hurt was too bad and I was afraid it might not be good for her.

She knows "find it" already, I am adding objects to it that she knows the name of, milk bone is the object I was using the other day. She doesn't know but few named objects yet. Cell phone is right out, she would surely crunch it.

Problem is the pred has her a little weirded out right now. OCD on food 24/7 and it's hard to get her mind off it, and I can't give her food rewards all day and night. Today is her first day without a pred dose, none since 24 hours ago, and she is peaceful now, probably sleep most of the day.

Only one yelp all week though since last Sunday, so she's improving. I'll probably start taking her back out for walks next week, and back to class the week after.

I should teach her to target my hand on command, that would be useful as well.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am just thinking of non physically difficult but mentally challenging things for you to have her do.. weirded out or not. Things that just train her for the sake of training. Doesn't have to be useful just useful for tiring her out!

Pred works but it can have side effects.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well it has been a bit.

Hope is getting back to normal with the prednisone down to every other day, and one dose left.

One yelp since Sunday before last, and she seems to be recovering fast.

I haven't had Hope back to class, or Kaya very often. Hope is getting back to her walks now that she is better.

I have been doing some marker training with both of them, something I plan to start working on more in the future.

I have been walking them together again, and on normal leashes and not flexis. I have been training Hope to heel right, and Kaya to heel left and they are both getting pretty darned good at it. Hope is even getting good at it going right past squirrels, several of them this morning. Likely the hardest thing she's ever done.

I'm also getting a lot of comments with them heeling either side down the street, auto sitting and down stays when other folks walk by. Had one guy even ask if I was breeding them..  Why do people think a well trained dogs pups will be well trained?

As for the e-collar, again it has worked very well with Hope. She pays more attention, is far more obedient, and she now gets plenty of positive reinforcement for doing so.

I still can't say how this method works, using a stim with the command, other than it seems to break focus on distractions and put it on the command. All I can really judge is behavior, and she does respond very well now.

It may even be showing some results with Kaya, but it's still hard to say with her as she has always been attentive and happy to do anything she understands that I ask. She doesn't get distracted much, and when she rarely does the collar doesn't seem to change it, though it's at such a low level you can barely feel it.

Next week it's back to class, and I will start narrowing my focus on what they need to be proficient at for a CGC, as I plan to go see if they can pass it pretty soon.

Another 2 months or so for Hope to heal up and I think I may start looking for a herding instinct test for Hope after she passes a CGC.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDZqVpGVy60&playnext_from=TL&videos=DUK3fZA5AqY&feature=sub

interesting vid on escape type training including e-collars and stress levels


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Interesting video.

He talks about applying pressure, and the dog learning to escape or release that pressure.

It made me think of the "natural" horse training methods I have been looking at, which are all about applying pressure and teaching the horse to escape that pressure with the correct behavior be it social pressure, or physical pressure from the legs, passive or active reigns.

I haven't used that with my dogs, and have used what the trainer I have been working with has laid out for me.

I haven't been posting as I have been buried in work, and not able to attend classes for a while. Hope has recovered her injury well, and I have been working on heeling and sit stays under heavy distraction and excitement for both of them on my own.

I'm getting to the point where I will soon have to start thinking about when to stop using the collars, what my criteria are to know when etc.

I've had an interesting time with Kaya. I taught her to bark at me a couple of weeks ago. I pet for a minute, and when I stop she wants more and I taught her if she vocalizes or barks I will pet her more. I created a monster as now she barks for anything, and has learned to answer with a bark when I ask if she wants to go out, or for a walk, or wants some food etc...

Now I have teach her to not bark.. 

It has had a strange side effect though, she seems to have doubled her confidence with me very quickly, and she even barks at Hope now, and barks at me when I do something she doesn't like as in petting Hope too much. It's the biggest gain her assertiveness and confidence I have seen since I adopted her.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I've had an interesting time with Kaya. I taught her to bark at me a couple of weeks ago. I pet for a minute, and when I stop she wants more and I taught her if she vocalizes or barks I will pet her more. I created a monster as now she barks for anything, and has learned to answer with a bark when I ask if she wants to go out, or for a walk, or wants some food etc...
> 
> Now I have teach her to not bark..
> 
> It has had a strange side effect though, she seems to have doubled her confidence with me very quickly, and she even barks at Hope now, and barks at me when I do something she doesn't like as in petting Hope too much. It's the biggest gain her assertiveness and confidence I have seen since I adopted her.



Yeah, I saw the same thing with Wally - once he started barking (that one really really LOUD bark at a dog) he started being more confident. It was like he felt he could hold his own or something.

And, yeah, I went through the same thing you're going through with Kaya with now NOT barking, though, call me crazy, I think it was easier for him to learn when and "how" to bark (i.e. how to use his voice) than it was to get him to vocalize on cue.

Thankfully, though, he doesn't bark much - only when he's really driven for something and is like "come on, throw it/send me/let's play/tell me what to do, already!"


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well it's been a while.

I haven't been going to class for a few weeks, but have been working with the girls nonetheless.

Work has been exceptionally busy and I have spent a lot of spare time driving 4-5 hours south looking at land to start setting up for hopeful semi retirement closer to family in a few years, even put an offer in.

After about 2 months Hope has recovered from the spinal issue and just got back to 100% this week and is her normal wild child self again. The e-collar training has been awesome for her overall. She even recalled mid chase off a deer, and then did so without the e-collar the next day. She needs a little more practice and the rabbits at my folks place will be in real danger.

I feel Hope is ready for a CGC now, with maybe a little more work on her stay which I have been neglecting somewhat, and I think she could start learning herding now if I could find the time as she is controllable when she gets her working/prey drive up. It will happen one way or another as I will be on acreage with small livestock in her lifetime... 

Kaya just got her final pass on the final heartworm test and is now officially clear of them. She needs more excercise and work to build her stamina up though. She should be in a lot better shape for a young dog.

The e-collar actually does show progress with her when out in the woods and she gets distracted and roams too far out of sight. So I finally see some use for the thing with her. She's about ready to pass a CGC as well I think.

Was at my fathers 80th birthday this weekend and my family thinks it's horrible that any time I pick up the "shock collars" to put them on or pick up the remotes the dogs start bouncing off the walls yipping with excitement that they know they are going out in the woods for a romp.

Kaya has learned the "quiet" command now, so barking to communicate she learned last month isn't so bad now, she's turning into a very good little dog, and it's time for me to decide to rehome her or not. I wouldn't mind keeping her as she is an excellent dog and she is extremely attached. I am likely the first human she has ever lived with and attached to but her and Hope are not meant to share a master and are not very compatible and I am more of a one dog person anyway. The constant management to keep them from drawing swords is tiresome.

She really needs someone without another dog, or at least without a very alpha and physical dog like Hope, without kids under 10, that trains positively and can stick to very light or no aversives. Harsh treatment would ruin her really fast. She is already pretty well trained in basic obedience, and a real easy dog to keep other then her blowing her coat now. She would be awesome for a young girl of college age I think, or an older retired person.

Overall the e-collar experience has been good. I have seen the difference that the dog it is applied to makes. Hope is a hard dog with a hard past and it worked wonders, I'm not sure I could have accomplished what I have without it. Kaya didn't really need it, regular techniques would have worked with her but it didn't hurt her and showed at least some usefulness, were she my only dog I would not use it with her. 

The dog makes a lot of difference. I can now see the day approaching where I will not need them at all, as I could see myself discontinuing them even now and having the results last as long as I am consistent and diligent.

The other factor is that it was definately not a replacement for hard work in training, I still had to do all the normal repetition and work training and conditioning as I would have done without the collar, it just helped make that training more effective with Hope. It's not really a short cut or quick fix,the same standard training using positive reinforcement was still required.

So now I have to decide to keep or rehome Kaya and I guess try to put some effort into finding the right person for her if I decide I can part with her. I may not be a foster failure just yet..


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Difference between dogs...

So since Hope and Kaya caught the possums out back a while back they are both now possessed with the urge to catch more critters out back. They both get intensely focused on bolting out the back door at absolute top speed to the back fence ready to pounce on anything they see, and heaven forbid they see something through the back window. It's as much focus and intensity as I ever see from them.

So since I can't seem to dull this and I have to just let it wear down on it's own, I decided to at least use it.

So in order to get to go out I don;t just let them bolt out, they have to sit or down and wait for me to open the door, and and wait for me to release them before they charge and send my rugs flying behind them etc.

So I get them both in a down stay and open the door. There they are tensed, muscles twitching, eagerly anticipating the release, like two olympic sprinters perched in the starting in the blocks anticipating for the gun to sound.. I look at them and the difference is stark. 

Kaya is in her down, her face oriented to me, her eyes are glued to mine in intent focus, watching my face, looking straight at me to let her go.

Hope is looking straight out the door, at her path of travel and the back fence, and an act of congress could not draw her gaze to me. Even after weeks of this, and only releasing her after she looks me in the eye, it still takes many commands to look at me before I get a the quickest of glances.

That basically sums up the differences between these dogs in so many ways.


----------



## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAxWCGIiOo8
> 
> THIS heel work BTW is what I aspire to with my dog.


Wow.
If only I could get Kaki to be that happy about heel work. Tyler looks like he can barely contain himself.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks for the update TxRider. I would up the ante with the door release and only release ONE dog at at time. Yup. THAT is real control. And not always let the same dog released each time.

Another thing I would do is not release Hope until she looks at your face and holds the look. IF She does not look on the FIRST request, release Kaya and close the door.. keeping Hope in a stay until she looks at you. START to open the door again.. and insist on her attention looking at your face as you open it. If she breaks off, shut the door. Hope you have a lot of time/patience to work on this.. but that is what you need to do! You need to teach her that "attention" is a cue just like "Down" is a cue. 

So, how much land are you looking at? What State? 

In 9 years, 4 months and 18 days (not that I am counting) I will retire and move outta NY and on south or south west.... hopefully to a small farm, couple of horses, maybe some sheep and dogs to train and show/trial. Big dreams from a not big enough income! LOL


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Tofu_pup said:


> Wow.
> If only I could get Kaki to be that happy about heel work. Tyler looks like he can barely contain himself.


Oh, he is absolutely overjoyed about working. I've seen him work more than once.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Yeah the one dog at a time thing is really hard for them.. I have them do that to go out the door at other times, and for treats etc, but it would be upping the ante big time doing it one by one when they are so excited.

I'm working on Hope with the attention thing, it's just really slow. Kaya is so easy. It's an every night thing for now, until they learn and get good at it, or they get tired of running out for Mr. Possum on the fence.

Land for me has to be in central Texas, close to family.

I put an offer in on a ten acre place, with 3 of those acres in thick old oaks and the rest pasture. I'd like a bigger place but prices are not cheap where I am looking. It's close to family where I want to be eventually but also too close to a large city for land prices to stay cheap. The adjoining ten acres is likely something I can buy later. The seller isn't biting yet though.. 

I look at land prices in NE Texas, and it's pretty amazing in comparison. You can get 50 acres for under 100k there, very good land for farming and pasture, but no employment within a 2hr drive. Kinda like prices in Arkansas or Missouri in the Ozarks, another fine place to buy land, but farther south for kinder winters.

I'm sticking to land close to family, and at a price I can pay off cash if things turned sideways on me in Dallas and be able to live on with a minimal cost of living. A little farm house on enough acres to feed myself and maybe make a few bucks selling a few lambs or something on the side and a little mechanic work now and then is my idea of paradise. I have looked at a few 25-30acre places, and might put an offer on one of those soon if the current guy doesn't take my offer.

I like horses, would love to try my hand at training one, but a horse isn't very practical for me really and can get expensive. I can easily eat sheep..


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Keep at it with Hope...... it is who can out last who... 

In the 9 years etc I have mentioned I was planning at looking at Texas actually. I hope to have a pension and SS by then and with some savings I hope to buy about what you describe. Small house, good barns and a bit of land... 

I would love NM but it is a more expensive place to live and, of course, there are concerns about water. So I was looking at TX with the idea of not so expensive to live and heat. 

Your idea of a place is about the same as mine actually. I figure a little used farm machinery.. I am pretty good machine mechanic.. and some animals. 

Would love to have a team and a wagon and a riding horse and get rid of a car. Cars are just money wasters. For the cost of owning, insuring and replacing a car a team and wagon would be a right bargain..... You just can't want to get anywhere fast.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I already have some used machinery.

A late 1940's farmall tractor I rebuilt the engine in last year, and a 1953 dodge 1 ton 4x4 truck I'm rebuilding now.

Hope is a tough one. She is smart and knows what I want. She is super intelligent.

That comes along with being very independent minded, stubborn, willfull and very opportunistic. If she wants something she'll bore a hole through my head with a stare... and if that doesn't get it she'll start getting vocal and physical to get my attention and get pretty assertive about it. Some folks would call it dominant..  It's a rather fun relationship actually, never a dull moment and quite entertaining at times.

I just have to lay the law down when it comes to certain things, as in her mind anything I ask of her is negotiable and I have to get her to understand certain things are not. Were getting there, and I suspect she'll get better with age in a couple of years.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well the girls are doing the one dog at a time release pretty well now, even with a live possum in sight out back.

I set up a couple of perches they can sit on inside, tell them to get on them with a "place" command, then open the door and release them one by one. Best self control exercise I have ever had for them.

I am a bit concerned I am encouraging their small creature aggression to a higher level than I want it to be though, and may pay a price for that later.

I'm only using the e-collars now when off leash in open country, and I think that too will be phased out before years end. It's only needed now when they really have their blood up over chasing a critter to call them off mid chase, and showing progress with both.

The e-collar may also be quite useful if I take Hope to see if I can get her trained for herding if she gets too excited by the livestock.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Well it seems mama possum had some new babies, and is still running the fence at night..

I have upped the ante on the releases and self control. Now the girls have to come out and heel, not just just rip our to the fence and start jumping around all over the place in a frenzy until released.

Somehow I expect I may end up with a couple or more dead little possums before long though.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Up the Ante. Now release them, one at a time, and then as they are charging away stop them dead with a LIE DOWN.. then up the ante some more by releasing one.. ask for LIE DOWN and then with dog #1 lying down, let dog #2 out and after she passes dog #1, ask for lie down and release dog #1.... Leap frog them to the fence.... this is training them to respond to you in the midst of prey drive....


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Up the Ante. Now release them, one at a time, and then as they are charging away stop them dead with a LIE DOWN.. then up the ante some more by releasing one.. ask for LIE DOWN and then with dog #1 lying down, let dog #2 out and after she passes dog #1, ask for lie down and release dog #1.... Leap frog them to the fence.... this is training them to respond to you in the midst of prey drive....


I'm having to go slow once outside, they have too much history of just bolting out the door. It's enough trouble getting them to just down in heel at the moment, stopping them once released is next, then stopping with a down I suppose if I can get it.

It's a good opportunity to train them when in prey drive, Hope is getting pretty good but I have been working on her for over a year now.

My only issue is that it seems to be building that prey drive, for both of them, and I'm not sure it's healthy to encourage it so much. I'm a bit worried about maybe getting them to the point of predatory drift on small dogs and such.

Most of the time there is nothing out there to even see or chase, they are working on the anticipation or possibility something might be there. They stay in the house and I let them out about every hour or so for 10 minutes or so.

They killed another small possum the other night, I think that's 5 this year, and there are norway rats that run up and down the neighborhood on the wood provacy fences all night that get the girls in a tizzy as well.

Hope wants to just endlessly patrol the entire perimiter edge of the yard, in a constant pattern all night. Kaya patiently sits and watches. I find Kaya is catching a lot more than Hope. They have also gotten quite a taste for the big cicidas as they eat 2-3 a night usually.

These big ugly gross things... Crunch Crunch.. These things....










Which are huge and prehistoric looking things, but they also bring these guys, Cicida killers, which are rather scary...

Largest stinging wasp I have ever seen...










It's only a matter of time before Hope chomps one of these...


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

That wasp looks like a weapon of war.

Dang - those are some big bugs.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> That wasp looks like a weapon of war.
> 
> Dang - those are some big bugs.


Yeah one of those wasps was stuck in my screened in patio this morning, they die in there usually with a stinger hanging out about 1/4". I do not want to find out what that sting feels like. One of those buzzing around at me is one thing that'll make me squeal like a little girl and run...


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

TxRider said:


> I have watched this trainer at classes 4 nights a week for a month now, and his dogs seem great, as do the others in class that are using them, with their dogs mostly off leash.
> 
> I haven't been able to even tell when they are activating them except very occasionally, if they even are acivating them.
> 
> ...


i like the used of e collars in the right way, this guy sounds like a good trainer, i have used e collars on a couple of occasions on my own with good results. if used correctly, they are a good tool to teach a dog off lead. tell me how it goes!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Hmm new development..

The girls have killed so many little possums out back, but I knew there was one little guy from the latest local brood left.

Well this morning both Hope and I figured out at about the same time that the last baby one fell into pool last night and had swum into the skimmer and was still in there.

So I got a box, opened up the skimmer, picked it out by the scruff of the neck and now it's curled up under a towel in a box in Hope's crate.

It looks like a night in the pool was a hard time on it so I don't know if it'll live through the day or if the stress is too much, I know it likely wouldn't if I let it go with all the dogs and cats up and out.

So I'm going to keep it inside all day and see if I can teach Hope to leave it. Maybe feed it something if I can figure out anything I have it might want to eat. Maybe let it go somewhere tonight if it makes it.

I'm kinda surprised as Hope seems to know it's in there, she wants in that crate.. but she's in here in the computer room laying down with me without much resistance.

Edit:

Little possum seems to have recovered well by this afternoon, seems pert and perky a little possum should be anyway.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Did the possum make it? Possums are ancient animals.. they are good at being possums but do not imprint well on humans. They play possum (a developed siezure disorder that kicks in when they are frightened I believe) and really do seem dead. Interesting creatures. They eat birds eggs and insects and other things like that. Marsupials. Interesting creatures. They can hiss like cats but if pressed will keel over like dead.

When they do this most dogs abandon them and they walk off.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Reminds me of the time I saw one under the porch and walking around the patio. I was like "what is THAT?" 

Can you tell I'm a city boy? LOL

Though, after seeing how funky it is - I wanted to get it and make it a pet. I wonder if you can train them?

I have no idea why it hung around that year. What attracted it? Haven't seen any possum since.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Considering the title of this thread, I will submit you can only train them with and E Collar... LOL

Actually, where I work we have Wildlife Rehabilitators and Possums are ancient mammals and very good at being possums but not too intelligent or able to learn non possum things like being pets. Skunks, OTOH, are good pets but there is the stinky end. Many a story of a baby skunk raised from infant to adult and the scent glands do not develop immediately.. and the skunk getting spooked and spraying after maturity.. NOT good. Might have to move out of the house after that. 

We need to get KB and Wally out of the city for a week! A little walk in the woods will change them forever!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

He recovered well by the end of they day, ate the tuna and chicken I left in the box, and escaped in the wee hours of the night through a hole in the box and went back to where he came from.. 

I figured he could fit out the hole, didn't know if he would or not. Kind of a pity as it means Hope will likely kill him before long, as he's likely not smart enough to stay out of the yard, and Hope doesn't wait a for a possum to play possum, she gives a full force full mouth bite on sight and that's all it takes, one bite and things are popping and squishing out places they aren't meant to.

One of the reasons I decided to try the e-collar route, to get better control of her when she takes it in her mind to kill something, and goes deaf in that high prey drive. It's very much for her safety, and for the cats she might go after and is the only reason I have gone to more forceful tools I have never had the need to use before. Thank goodness she draws the line at not going after small dogs, but everything else is fair game.

It's going to be a challenge as I shift back into rural life on the land I'm buying, and have to deal with bringing in small livestock with her around.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

So this weekend Hope stayed at my side in heel off leash with 10+ deer 50 feet away in the mowed pasture, even several small fawns hopping around playing. She started chasing once the first time she saw them, but recalled after about 15 feet. I took her out with the deer close by several times to work on it, as the deer hang out at my mothers daily as she feeds them and has a water tank set out for them about 100yds out in the pasture for them.

I don't think I ever could have gained that much control without the e-collar with Hope. It is really quite impressive IMO how she has gone from totally overcome by prey drive, to actually listening to what I tell her, and I barely even used the e-collar at all and will likely never have to put it back on her by years end.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I know that there are folks who think E Collars are the worse things on earth and I am not a fan of using them for general training. That being said, I an not against using aversives in training (just don't talk about it on an open forum as proper use of aversives is an artform and there is too much room for abuse by those ignorant in their application). 

I have thought about some of this a lot of late and here is the thing. The ultimate goal is a responsive dog that has trustworthy basic responses to basic cues. Sit, down, recall, wait and a release word with loose leash walking and off leash control and a nice heel tossed in there. If you can get those things going for you and your pet dog then you both will have a happy co-existance for many many years. While it would be nice if you could get everyone of those things with Positive Reinforcement and Negative Punishment, that is probably not realistic. 

Humans and dogs both have limits and I am thinking that the point is the end result and as long as what you are doing is not wanton abuse, then perhaps the best we can hope for is to focus on the outcome at least as much as the method to get there. 

Lets face it, the method to get there (be it clicker, collar corrections, voice marker, e collar) is usually abandoned once the behavior is on cue and reliable (you are soon going to cease using the E collar on Hope). 

At that point everyone both dog and human.. can get on with the business of enjoying each other and having a good life.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I know that there are folks who think E Collars are the worse things on earth and I am not a fan of using them for general training. That being said, I an not against using aversives in training (just don't talk about it on an open forum as proper use of aversives is an artform and there is too much room for abuse by those ignorant in their application).


Agree 100% with above statement, Aversives can be used to deal with problems quickly, efficiently and then problem is done and done. It just has no place on a forum where reading of problem dogs is not possible.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I would also add, I doubt I would have ever had a need if I had taken Hope in as a small puppy, but she was rescued as a 3-4 year old adult GSD. I didn't have the opportunity to use other methods while she was developing her personality and character and had no chance to shape it as she developed.

As well the results on my other dog Kaya have not been at all the same as the results have been with Hope using the exact same methods.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

TxRider said:


> As well the results on my other dog Kaya have not been at all the same as the results have been with Hope using the exact same methods.


I see a dog trainer here. _The exact same methods do not work on every dog_. 

That is a HUGE thing to know and everyone who does any training of any animal (including humans) should know this. They don't all learn the same way and they don't all respond to trianing or teaching the same way. 

I still want pictures of you Play Bowing to Kaya tho..... Now.. are you ready? Here it comes... I know you are anticipatingit.. WEAK SMILEY...


----------

