# Opinions on fear aggression and (self) crating?



## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

((Added after posting: OMG, I just looked this over and it is ridiculously long... too much history, I guess, lol. Well, if anyone is patient enough to read this all, thank you!))

Hello! I have been reading this forum for a while, but this is my first real post. I was hoping to get some opinions 

This is about our Lab, Sadie. (I say we and our, because I share a house with my mom, though I am well into adulthood, heh) Anyway, Sadie turned two in March, and - in almost every respect - has been an amazing dog. For example, we got her at 8 weeks, and she was completely house trained by the second day. She learns new "tricks" and such so fast it's kind of scary... She seems like she really wants to do what we ask. Not stubborn, nothing like that.

Anyway, at about a year of age, she started barking at the windows when anyone / anything passed by, even though she had never done anything like that before. (We live in the country, with only a couple neighbors on a dead-end street, so the most she ever saw was a car driving by a few times a day, stuff like that)

But, things have progressed. First off, I think we did a lot of things right with Sadie - much better than we ever handled any other dog (when I was a kid, we were very lazy and "whatever" with our dogs' behaviours. But, we wanted Sadie to be perfect, lol). But, I know we did one major thing wrong. I know we didn't properly socialize her. She didn't see enough different people when she was young, as we are pretty isolated out here and - I can admit - just didn't make the effort to "get her out there" like we should have.

Back to the problem  Barking at the window progressed to bouncing stiff-legged around the house, hackles up (I had never in my life seen a dog bounce like that, or seen hackles! It was freaky at first...) and very vicious, violent barking, at the mere sound of a car coming up the road. If someone actually walked near the house? Complete insanity.

The weird part is, this sort of thing only happens in the house. If we take her out, go to the vet, whatever, she is perfectly behaved... I took her to a class when she was about a year and a half (partly because I felt guilty about the socializing. She really didn't need any general "training") and she was the friendliest, best behaved dog in the class!

So, we figured it must be a dominance issue... she felt like she was the leader, and had to protect her home. We started working on that, with a lot of things similar to the NILIF concept. She is the type that is naturally skittish, and was apparently truly stressed out by feeling like she had to be in control. Now, we can generally get her to calm down about things outside, and to watch quietly after an initial bark or two.

((Holy Cow, this is getting long!! I am sorry, and thanks for reading...))

We even did have a behaviourist out to the house this spring (right around when Sadie turned two) but I didn't have much faith in her (I can go into why if anyone really wants to know, outside of what's in this post.)

Our main issue now, and the original reason we called in the behaviourist is that Sadie was showing real signs of fear aggression. My mom and I run what is basically a group home... we are funded by the county, and provide lodging for people who are mentally ill, AODA, that sort of thing. They are functional, and don't need to be institutionalized, but just can't live on their own.

Anyway, we have two residents now; an older gentleman that Sadie loves to death (too much, lol, we have to call her off from licking his face all the time), and another fellow "Dan" that Sadie seems truly terrified of. 

Due to the nature of our work, we are home 24/7. Dan has never, ever been alone with Sadie (not even for ten seconds), and we have never even seen him be loud or anything around her. He has a very gentle affect. But, whenever she sees him, or even hears his bedroom door open (meaning he is on his way into the living area) she growls, then barks threateningly. Hackles up, the whole bit. All she wants to do is get away... she backs up, growling. We have had him just ignore her, just go about his business. After a few minutes she calms down, and will even let him approach when we encourage (and are standing right there). Lots of treats and praise whenever he comes around, to help her learn that he means good things... doesn't seem to make a bit of difference.

And here's the clincher. If we are outside, she loves him, too. Plays fetch with him (excited, dropping the ball properly, just like with us), no shyness, happily lets him pet her, everything!! It's just INSIDE the house.

I mentioned self-crating in my topic, and I promise, I am getting there! LOL. Sometimes, when she seems very afraid, either of Dan, or when we have guests, Sadie will go into her crate. She loves her crate - loves when we tell her every night that it is "time for bed!" and truly seems to feel safe there.

The behaviourist told us to cut off Sadie's access to her crate. We keep it in the laundry room - and she told us to close the door, and not let Sadie in there except to sleep at night. She explained that we were doing the wrong thing by allowing Sadie to "hide" and that we had to, basically, force her to get over her fear.

I am scared to death that, if we really push this, Sadie is going to bite. She is such a sweetheart, and I love her to death (I have never been a dog person, never had dogs of my own, and this is the first time I have truly understood that love!) If she bites, especially a resident, we will have NO choice but to rehome her. 

I truly believe that, if she doesn't have a "safe" place... that she may escalate. She appears sincerely terrified. Please, please, tell me what you guys think...

((Again, sorry this got so long))


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

What sort of qualifications did the behaviors you hired have? I would suggest a different one ASAP. Check out http://www.certifiedanimalbehaviorist.com and http://www.iaabc.org


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

Does that mean that you think she might have been wrong about "locking Sadie out of her crate"?

I guess it came down to intuition. I just did NOT feel that this was the right thing to do. I'd like to trust my instincts, but hey... I'm not the expert, right?

There were other things... like the issue we have with Sadie barking at the windows (which we mostly solved by ourselves, thank you very much) : the "expert" told us to... keep the curtains closed??

As far as her qualifications, I am not sure. my mom found her and set it up. I'll look back into it; it was a few months ago.

(By the way, we did not follow the crate-blocking advice... I have been working really intently with Sadie over the last few days, and have kept her out of the crate when I am right there with her - since I don't want her weaseling out of training sessions, lol. But, generally, we have let her go in whenever she wants)


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

What I meant is that there are many "dog behaviorists" out there who have little to no qualifications to call themselves that.  For example, to be certified with the IAABC, you must first be certified with the CCPDT which requires at least 300 hours of experience as a trainer within the past five years, plus references from a veterinarian, a client and a collegue. The IAABC further requires a minimum of 3 years and 1500 hours in animal behavior consulting; a Masters degree in a related field (i.e., animal science, biology, psychology) or at least 500 hours of verifiable advanced instruction/education related to the 5 core areas of competency. CAAB certification is even more difficult to go after. Then there's "Dog Psychologist," a meaningless, but often over-used title now thanks to Cesar Millan. For more information, check out the links I provided. That's why I asked about the qualifications of the behaviorist you had working for you.


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## PeppersPop (Apr 13, 2008)

I completely disagree with the behaviorist... Sadie is using the crate to get out of a situation that she finds stressful/frightening... this is GREAT!!! I think that cutting of her access would be cruel and pointless. She would most likely find another place to hide or worse, become aggressive and bite..

You can help Sadie deal with her fear of guests and allow her access to the crate... introduce her to new people slowly. Have them over several times before asking her to interact with them. Let Sadie approach guest on her own terms... use treats and toys to make it a positive experience.

One thing to keep in mind, the "bad" behavior you are dealing with is not all that bad. Of course we want our dogs to be happy and healthy as possible, but is going to her crate when she feels scared a bad thing? If she was spending all of her time in the crate, that would be a big deal (though even then I don't think blocking off the crate is the answer) but this doesn't sound like the situation you are in.

You said that Sadie just turned two... she's still a young pup. Work on socialization.. think about an obedience class. It will give her structured exposure to other dogs/people and build up her confidence.

Longer posts = more details... post away! 

Sid


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I agree should could be going through a late fear phase of some sort, my dog has been going through that...Except she would lunge, bark, hackles raised outside not inside...

Basically...Don't rush it, find her safe bubble as in, find the point where a person can be and she will not have a crazy reaction, be it 20 feet away, or 30 feet away, whatever she is comfortable with. Train her in front of them, they should be sitting down not staring at her or anything. Give her treats and try to distract her as much as possible, slowly day by day or week by week whichever she is comfortable with, move in a little closer, a foot or 5 feet, depending on the dog. 

Take it slooowww, you don't want to overwhelm her, because she could turn into a fear biter, her running to her crate is good, because then she doesn't feel threatened and lash out out of fear! It's her cave, don't take it away!


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> [...]That's why I asked about the qualifications of the behaviorist you had working for you.


Thanks, I'll look into it. Like I said, my mom found her..



PeppersPop said:


> Sadie is using the crate to get out of a situation that she finds stressful/frightening... this is GREAT!!! I think that cutting of her access would be cruel and pointless. She would most likely find another place to hide or worse, become aggressive and bite..


See, that's how we saw it, too...



PeppersPop said:


> introduce her to new people slowly. Have them over several times before asking her to interact with them. Let Sadie approach guest on her own terms... use treats and toys to make it a positive experience.


I know this is a great suggestion... but what comes next? For example, "Dan" has lived here for five months now. She sees him EVERY day. We make happy talk, praise her, and "shower her with treats" every time he comes into the room. I swear to you, it is not working. She will even, hesitantly, take a treat from him (once she has settled down after those first few minutes) and eventually seems all right. He can leave the room, and come back five minutes later, and it's like she has never seen him before! She can be outside, joyfully playing ball with someone, and as soon as we come inside, she cringes and hides in her crate... I am just at a loss.



PeppersPop said:


> One thing to keep in mind, the "bad" behavior you are dealing with is not all that bad. Of course we want our dogs to be happy and healthy as possible, but is going to her crate when she feels scared a bad thing?


I agree. It was the behaviourist that thought it was so terrible, and she had to "face her fears." I was like, hey... if she naps in the crate for a couple hours, or on the couch, what's the difference?



Pepper said:


> I agree should could be going through a late fear phase of some sort, my dog has been going through that...Except she would lunge, bark, hackles raised outside not inside...
> 
> Basically...Don't rush it, find her safe bubble as in, find the point where a person can be and she will not have a crazy reaction, be it 20 feet away, or 30 feet away, whatever she is comfortable with. Train her in front of them, they should be sitting down not staring at her or anything. Give her treats and try to distract her as much as possible, slowly day by day or week by week whichever she is comfortable with, move in a little closer, a foot or 5 feet, depending on the dog.


That's what we have been trying... but, I have a more complicated issue with that. We can't always take all that time to train her around Dan, because - as I mentioned - he is mentally ill, and sometimes has trouble with his symptoms and can't "handle" being around people or fairly intense situations for long... So, we've been kind of limited to praise and treats when he is sort of "moving through" so far... If that makes sense. We are still trying to figure out how to deal with that, and have been kind of approaching it as if he were a child (not saying we treat him like one! Just as far as what he is capable of with Sadie) 



Pepper said:


> her running to her crate is good, because then she doesn't feel threatened and lash out out of fear! It's her cave, don't take it away!


Thank you, everyone who has said similar. I feel better about trusting my intuition on that point.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> So, we figured it must be a dominance issue... she felt like she was the leader, and had to protect her home.


Not a dominance issue at all. 

I, too, encourage you to find another behaviorist. This one is giving you bad advice. Actually, a good certified trainer who does OC +R rather than old school aversive methods would probably do the trick.


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

> OC +R


I feel like I should know what this means 



> Not a dominance issue at all.


Oh, also, would you be able to expand on this?

I likely used the wrong term. What I meant by "dominance" was: Sadie does not see her humans as strong enough to keep her safe, so she takes that on herself, and her fear makes her more reactive. If we were stronger, she could trust us to "take care of things" and could relax more. Am I on the right track, there, at all, do you think?


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I think you've been watching and/or reading too much Cesar Millan, or listening to someone else who has. 

OC = Operant Conditioning

+ R = positive Reinforcement


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> I think you've been watching and/or reading too much Cesar Millan, or listening to someone else who has.


Haha, no, I am not onboard the "Cesar Train", and I certainly don't want this thread to turn into that flamefest! Again, it's something that just seemed logical / intuitive to me, and I've garnered from reading a wide variety of doggie books.

And thanks for the clarification


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

No flames here, it's just that Cesar spouts something very similar. The only thing missing here is the use of "pack leader," or "calm/assertive energy." I know what you're thinking seems logical at first, but if you think about it further, if the dog were looking for protection from the people around her, why wouldn't she also be looking for the same outside where she interacts just fine with everyone?


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

Oh, no, I wasn't taking it as a flame! I only meant i didn't want this thread to turn into one (from others joining in, not from you or me).

What you say makes sense, which is why it all is even more puzzling. Why only inside the house? And that's what made us think "territorial" defense sort of thing. 

We were told by the behaviourist that "it doesn't matter why Sadie is acting this way; we may never know. We just need to make it stop." Whether or not this is a sound principle, I really *really* would like to understand why she acts this way. I think it would help in stopping it. Certainly, we work on doing what it takes to stop the behaviour, but I guess my brain just doesn't work that way. I need to know WHY


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

*Anyway, we have two residents now; an older gentleman that Sadie loves to death (too much, lol, we have to call her off from licking his face all the time), and another fellow "Dan" that Sadie seems truly terrified of. *

Is "Dan" on any medication such as Dilantin for Seizures or any other antipsychotics? The reason I am mentioning this is that I had a dog Max. He was a really good dog... and loved everyone but I had a nephew who had been in a terrible tractor accident. He had a plate in his head and he was on dilantin. As long as he was on dilantin, Max was truly a danger for him to be around. The kid was 14 and just really LOVED Max and wanted to pet him, but Max would have no part of it. 

After 3 years, with no seizures from the head injury they took my Nephew off Dilantin. In two days Max ceased to react to my Nephew and within a week my nephew could pet him all day and Max just loved it. 

Your dog *MAY* be reacting in a similar manner for a similar reason. Just thought I would mention this.


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## PeppersPop (Apr 13, 2008)

You might be over thinking this...

My guess is that something frightening happened inside the house and she has somehow come to associate the scary thing with Dan. It could be something he did that frightened Sadie or it could be something that has absolutely nothing to do with him and he just happened to be around... like Albert and the white rat (classical conditioning). 
For more info, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Albert_experiment

You said that Sadie barks/growls/hackles whenever Dan is around, opens his door, or comes into the room. You also said that you "make happy talk, praise her, and shower her with treats every time he comes into the room" to make his presence in the house a positive thing. I wonder if this could be unintentionally reinforcing the behavior... instead of thinking "Dan = treats", she may be thinking "barking at Dan = treats."

How does Dan feel about all of this? Does he want to be around Sadie? Does he want to be involved in her care and training? 

Regards,
Sid 

PS. I'm not sure but I think OC +R stands for Operant Conditioning and Positive Reinforcement




Talynn said:


> I feel like I should know what this means
> 
> 
> Oh, also, would you be able to expand on this?
> ...


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Is "Dan" on any medication such as Dilantin for Seizures or any other antipsychotics? [...]
> 
> Your dog *MAY* be reacting in a similar manner for a similar reason. Just thought I would mention this.


Actually, yes, Dan is on antipsychotics... and the other resident is not! Is there any more info about this out there? Could she really be reacting to something like this?



PeppersPop said:


> You might be over thinking this...


Probably... it's one of my "talents" 




PeppersPop said:


> You said that Sadie barks/growls/hackles whenever Dan is around, opens his door, or comes into the room. You also said that you "make happy talk, praise her, and shower her with treats every time he comes into the room" to make his presence in the house a positive thing. I wonder if this could be unintentionally reinforcing the behavior... instead of thinking "Dan = treats", she may be thinking "barking at Dan = treats."


This was something else that we started on the behaviourist's advice. We now try not to reward her *while* she is very reactive... Only when she has started calming down. 

I also wanted to mention - I have been working with her really hard today, and I think I am seeing a bit of improvement! I have stopped with the treat showers and crazy praise (for just the reason you mentioned, Sid) and now do the following: When Dan first starts to approach, opens his door, whatever, I can see Sadie starting to react. I immediately put her in a down/stay (sometimes she's ignores me, so I give a little leash jerk/correction. Sorry if some might think this is cruel? I just didn't know what else to try. And, it's not to get her to stop reacting to Dan - just to get her to obey my down/stay) I make her hold the stay, remaining calmly with her, as he enters the room and does whatever... She seems to be responding really well to this! Once I know she is not going to bark/growl (I can tell when she is "over it") I release her and praise/reward.

This breakthrough was the reason that I asked the crate question in the first place, because I didn't know if "hiding" was going to help or hurt this process. I didn't mention all this yet because I wanted to be sure it was working, lol. Today was a big breakthrough day. Dan came down the stairs while I put her in a down/stay (no growling or reacting, just wary watching from Sadie). I asked him to sit on the couch, I sat next to him, had her down/stay in front of us, and we both gave her treats. She took them from his hand, and then let him pet her 

Gosh, now it seems like my post is pointless, because things are going well. But, I know nothing changes overnight, and was still wondering about the crate access! Also, she still reacts fearfully if I am not RIGHT THERE enforcing a down/stay, like if I am in the other room when he comes through the door. If the crate is open, she'll go hide; if not, she'll kind of skitter/back away.



PeppersPop said:


> How does Dan feel about all of this? Does he want to be around Sadie? Does he want to be involved in her care and training?


He does... he just has a lot of symptoms, and spends a lot of time in his room, or out walking alone (I think the most amazing thing would be for him to take Sadie along on his hour long walks, lol, but we don't quite trust them at that). He gets overwhelmed very quickly. But, he has expressed sadness that he feels Sadie "doesn't like him", and has often apologized for making her bark  We assure him it's not his fault, and explain things, but I feel bad for him.

We are working on NILIF... I wonder if we should get him involved, as much as he can? What if I had her down/stay while he set down her food dish, things like that?


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I would definitely try making Dan the giver of all things wonderful by putting Sadie's dish ever closer to his room, having Dan leave the best treats ever near his room, then having him gently toss those treats to Sadie as she becomes less reactive. I would also continue with LOADS of positive association with Dan outside where Sadie is more at ease with him. I would never try to force contact, even if that means getting the two close enough to eachother to cause a reaction out of Sadie. Instead of focusing on getting obedience from Sadie in situations where Dan is passing through and tensions are building, I would teach the "Look At That" game outlined in Leslie McDevitt's book, "Control Unleashed." The only thing I don't like about doing any sort of correction to this dog with Dan around is that again she could associate the correction with Dan. I think you really need to work with this dog sub-threshold, not after she's upset, and that's going to take some serious management to keep her and Dan separated enough to keep Sadie from reacting.


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> I think you really need to work with this dog sub-threshold, not after she's upset, and that's going to take some serious management to keep her and Dan separated enough to keep Sadie from reacting.


That's her biggest issue - once she is past threshold, it's nearly impossible to get her back. She is completely oblivious to anything we've tried at that point. That's why I think I've been having success with a down/stay next to me when I know Dan is coming, but she hasn't started to react yet.

Just to clarify, I didn't, and wouldn't force any contact  If she had been at all agitated, resisting the down/stay, even a hint of a growl, I would have stopped and given her distance from Dan. It's like she freaks out initially, then after a minute or two, she's fine. By the time he was giving her treats, she was "over it". But, again, he can leave the room and come back 30 seconds later, and it's like she's never seen him before, heh.


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## PeppersPop (Apr 13, 2008)

Wow, your behaviorist sounds like a bonehead. 

A very basic principle of behaviorism is that if you reinforce a behavior, you increase the likelihood of it being repeated... giving Sadie treats and praise while or immediately after she reacts to Dan increases the chances that she will do it again!!!!

Putting Sadie into a down/stay when she starts to react is an excellent idea. "Watch me" is another good command to use (asking her to make and hold eye contact with you).

I would suggest not using corrections/jerks, at least in this situation. You might be doing it to get her to down/stay, but if she's focused on Dan, she will most likely associate it with him... which would be very counter-productive.

I think that having access to the crate might actually help the process... when she goes to the crate, she's not reacting (well, in a sense she is, but I think its preferable to barking/growling) which is your ultimate goal. 

I think that involving Dan in Sadie's training is a great idea. Having him feed her while you do down-stay sounds like a good way to start. Involve him in her care as much as possible... if he can't take her out by himself, what about walking together? If you take a walkman or mp3 player, there won't be any pressure to talk while walking. You could also send them out on some short mini-walks to see how they do together (down two houses and back or even around the yard with the leash).

I'm so glad to hear that you're making progress! Great job. 

Sid


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I ma glad you are making progress, but beware. I know of no studies and my story with Max is 100% anectdotal. However, the dog senses something not right and is not comfortable with it. You have no idea what that is. It could be Dan's basic illness, the drugs and how they alter him to make his illness manageable etc. 

I would NOT have Dan walk the dog. this is not because Dan is a bad guy but because you already know you cannot trust the dog around him unless she is under your command. 

All the other ideas are good ones but the best thing is to NOT FORCE THE ISSUE. A dog that feels threatened or cornered (any animal, humans included) may/will act inappropriately if you push too far or too hard. 

Never leave Dan and dog alone together. If the dog leaves and goes to her crate it is because she senses something that frightens her or worries her. With time she MAY come around, but honestly, after my experience with Max, I woudl say he never came around in a trustworthy way until the Dilantin was no longer being given.


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## allison (Jun 26, 2008)

The medication that Dan is on can very well be the cause... dogs are sensitive to things we know nothing about and couldn't even possibly understand. When I was young we had a Lab an he LOVED my neighbor. After my neighbor's heart attack he had to go on all sorts of meds. My dog would NOT go near him. Then he went off of the meds a few years later... my dog loved him again. Things that make you go hmmm!


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

Wow, all this medication stuff is odd, and does make me go hmmm. I don't expect them to ever be best friends... I'll settle for an end to the growling and barking


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

Big update for anyone that's been following:

Sadie is doing absolutely amazing! I have been working with her intensely since Monday (Friday now) and... I feel like I am watching a Cesar Milan episode! (NO, not saying he is a miracle, or whether he is right or wrong - staying out of that mess - simply talking about the super fast transformations you see, clever editing or not  )

1. The crazy barking at the windows / sliding doors has all but stopped. She still reacts most of the time, but actually stops (or at least settles to a low grumble) with a single "Quiet!" A week ago, she was charging, barking furiously, with hackles up, with no chance of me bringing her back down until the car was past. I've even caught her a few times today and yesterday, simply lifting her head, looking at the car, and settling back down without a sound!

2. The cats, which I haven't mentioned until now. Sadie has a super high prey drive, and would chase any cat that came into sight. (We have three house cats) She didn't bark, growl, or anything, simply charged. The cats have been mostly isolated since Sadie came along. Two of them have been hanging out in a room she isn't allowed into (baby gate, with just enough cat-squeezing room if they want to come out, which they rarely do  ) The third cat, Toby, I've had to keep in a closed bedroom for ages now. Toby simply doesn't run away. Which you'd think would decrease Sadie's prey drive, but nope. Sadie has pounced on Toby pretty soundly a few times (never used teeth, just... pounced) while Toby just squawked at her. He's pretty old, and I was worried he'd get really hurt. Anyway... somehow I have started to get it through Sadie's head that the cats are not prey. The two hiders are still cautious, but Toby has been roaming around, and Sadie just ignores him now!

3. The Dan situation has improved incredibly. She only barked at him once today, when she was startled by him coming in noisily, but quieted when I told her to! I decided to do the following with the crate question: When I am *right there* I close the door to the laundry room. I didn't want her hiding out and missing (what I considered) important training / desensitization opportunities. But again, ONLY when I am right there.

I'll be sitting in my chair, with Sadie's "pillow" (her big cushion, which she goes to on cue and lies down) right next to the chair (where it always is). I have her lie on her pillow while I am sitting next to her when I know Dan is coming. I just kept her in down/stay while he passed and went about his business. It was hard the first few times; she wanted to bolt, but I just had her maintain it, and now she barely notices him passing. (I wasn't forcing contact, he simply walked past, while I was holding her attention)

When I am not "right there", in another room or whatever, I open the laundry room door so she can use her crate if she wants.

Anyway, been doing that since Monday, and really started noticing the change yesterday! 

And today, I almost fell over, I am so proud of her! Dan was going for a walk. I was in the other room, and Sadie was (voluntarily, lol) laying on her pillow. Dan had forgotten something, and about 5 minutes after he left, came back to the door, opened it, and called for me to ask me a question. A week ago, Sadie would have been charging around on stiff legs, hackles up, barking like crazy at something like that.

Today, she got up from her pillow, and strolled over toward the door, tail wagging slightly, like she was just saying hello to him! (same body language as she would have used if it'd been me, just to make clear it wasn't stalking or anything, lol) I kept an eye to make sure she wasn't going to act up, but she just moved about halfway to the door, watched calmly until he left, then went back and laid down. I have never been so proud of her!

I know we may still have setbacks, but WOW!

Now, of course, I am kicking myself in the head for not doing helping her sooner. I've never been as consistent and dedicated as I have the last few days, and was almost thinking things just weren't going to change. I could have fixed this months ago, had I only known how, and can't help feeling guilty 

Anyway, good day for us!


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## PeppersPop (Apr 13, 2008)

Yay!!!! That is super.

What changes have you made? Any thoughts as to what triggers the behavior?

Be really careful if you are blocking the crate. It's so easy to forget to open it (the phone rings... you're only going to be gone for a second)... it would be awful to lose the progress you've made.

Have a good weekend.

Sid




Talynn said:


> Big update for anyone that's been following:
> 
> Sadie is doing absolutely amazing! I have been working with her intensely since Monday (Friday now) and... I feel like I am watching a Cesar Milan episode! (NO, not saying he is a miracle, or whether he is right or wrong - staying out of that mess - simply talking about the super fast transformations you see, clever editing or not  )
> 
> ...


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

PeppersPop said:


> Yay!!!! That is super.
> 
> What changes have you made? Any thoughts as to what triggers the behavior?
> 
> Be really careful if you are blocking the crate. It's so easy to forget to open it (the phone rings... you're only going to be gone for a second)... it would be awful to lose the progress you've made.


Thanks! No, still no real knowledge of what triggers her with Dan. For all I know, it may be the meds he is on, the color of his hair, or she was scared by a mouse fart the day he moved in and she's never forgotten 

The MAIN change, and not to sound like a commercial:
http://www.dogfather.tv/index.php

The collar was the trick for her. It's similar to a prong collar, I believe (never used a prong) but a bit softer. I totally believe in positive reinforcement, but I can accept that once in a while, a dog does need a "correction." When she was SO wound up, she was simply oblivious to voice correction, or any other attempt I had at the time to get her attention or correct her. A regular collar and leash turned into a tug-of-war. I worried about her neck, not to mention it was doing no good for anything but simply restraining her while she lunged.

Yeah, this guy is a lot about the whole "pack mentality" thing, but I appreciate parts of his "program" even if I don't necessarily agree with every word. I have come to believe that positive reinforcement works about 98% of the time with Sadie (100% when she's learning a new behaviour/ trick/ command), but it's that 2% when she's "going crazy" that I needed something else. She's a pretty soft dog, until she gets super-reactive, so I've only needed to use the collar gently, and it gets her focus back on me.

The main changes I have made: 

With Dan, it came down to anticipating her reaction better, and keeping her in a down/stay before he arrived, and as he passed (not physically forcing it, of course, but keeping her attention on me). She's terribly smart (I know, all dog owners say that, lol) and I believe she makes little associations very quickly. (like my mouse fart joke!) I think after a couple dozen times of her feeling compelled to keep attention on me, not react, and not hide, she just came to realize that he was not going to hurt her. Regardless of where she got that crazy idea in the first place. I do notice that, even later today, when we got to the point where she was not in a down/stay, and just sort of ambling about the room, she still shoots me a "Is this ok?" look when she sees him. I take this as a good thing? We thought we had tried everything we could think of, and I guess it was just finally hitting on what worked *for her*.

With cars, a single strong "Quiet!" when the car showed up, then a quick leash correction if she didn't respond. Every time. I know about being careful that she doesn't associate the correction with the car, and get even more upset. I understand that with some dogs, and maybe with Sadie in another situation, that can happen. But again, it had been a matter of trying everything (so I thought) and finally hitting on something. If she had seemed to be reacting *more* strongly at the next car, I would have probably changed tactics. Also, once she was just sitting at the window, watching quietly, lots of praise.

The cats, again, that was just a matter of keeping her on leash and under control (poor girl has been on leash since Monday, lol, mostly dragging it around the house), catching her - before she started chasing - with the leash and a strong "Leave It!" (which she knows well), and lots of praise every time the cat went by and she ignored it.

Geez, this all seems so common sense to me now! Behold the power of the internet. Everything prior to this week seems like either avoiding any dealing on my part (keeping the cats locked up, etc) or a constant, useless flailing  Actually, I think I generally knew *what* to do, but the new collar made it effective.

Yeah, I am very careful with blocking the crate. I did observe her once, without interfering, late today after she'd been doing really good. (I was kind of around the corner, but could see her) and she just walked over to the other side of the room when Dan walked through, still without showing any aggression or strong fear. But, yes, I will still be leaving her full access when I am not directly watching. Also, Dan knows not to approach her in any way yet, even if she *looks* calm. Though he can give her a treat IF she politely comes up to him on her own (which she did twice this evening! yaay!) Otherwise, he is just to ignore her and go about his activities.

I am so proud of her!
(Apparently, I am a closet novelist)


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

It is good that this is all working out for you. I too have had to go to corrections for some things my dog found so self rewarding that no amount of treats etc. worked. Bottom line is she is off leash most of the time. For the first time in WEEKS I put the leash on her and you know, it was a big fat nothing to her which is what Leslie McCevitt w2orks for in "Control Unleashed."  she acted the same with the leash onas she does with it off. NO PROBLEMS.

I have used corrections as well for a few things. The trick is in the timing and being sure the dog associates the correction with the right thing.. and not enforcing with a correction that is too harsh or not harsh enough for the situation at hand. It is a real balance and you need to be very very careful with it... and that is why I do NOT discuss or support corrections on a Public forum. 

You have them working for you and that is great. The issue with corrections is that most people do not time them right, use them wrong or use too much force. The reuslts can be really bad. If you mis time a click and a treat you end up with a fat dumb dog, not a dog that might be dangerous (fear aggressive etc.) or shut down and un responsive. 

It is a great feeling when you finally get it to work tho, isn't it?


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> for some things my dog found so self rewarding that no amount of treats etc. worked. Bottom line is she is off leash most of the time.


Exactly! She does wonderfully with 100% positive reinforcements with almost everything.

And, yes, I understand the rest of what you said. I did my research and came to accept that, yes, once in a while, correction can be necessary. I would have never dreamed of it for the longest time, but am glad I found something that works in *those* situations. I am being SO so careful with it, and am always very tuned in to Sadie's reactions. Always erring on the side of under-correcting.

You make a good point about discussing this in public  I was very hesitant to share what worked, as I am still afraid of being called cruel, abusive, etc. All I can say is that I am super careful, it has worked (is working), and it seems much, much kinder than the way we were living before.



> It is a great feeling when you finally get it to work tho, isn't it?


Unbelievable feeling! Like I said, my only problem now is guilt over not having hit on the "right way for her" sooner 

Thanks.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't care what other people CALL me.. LOL. I DO care if they take what I do, multiply it tenfold, and hurt their dogs. That counts. 

I still believe that if I had gotten Atka a bit younger I would have been able to circumvent the two things I have had to resrot to corrections on. Now two out of all the crap I have taught her is a pretty good record considering ALL my training used to be correction based. Oh yes.. and she is still learning new stuff... LOL That is all with the clicker etc. 

My point is that there are tools in the box. If you need to tap something in place with a rubber mallet, that does no damage to what you tap it with, then you don't take out the 24 oz short sledge and wail away! 

Mostly I use the clicker and treats and we move to other tools if necessary. 

BTW don't feel "guilt." EVER for Anything. It is a useless waste. You figured it out. guilt does nothing but make YOU feel bad. Let that one go. If it comes on. recognize it and let it go.. and then eat some ice cream...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> I don't care what other people CALL me.. LOL. I DO care if they take what I do, multiply it tenfold, and hurt their dogs. That counts.
> 
> I still believe that if I had gotten Atka a bit younger I would have been able to circumvent the two things I have had to resrot to corrections on. Now two out of all the crap I have taught her is a pretty good record considering ALL my training used to be correction based. Oh yes.. and she is still learning new stuff... LOL That is all with the clicker etc.
> 
> ...


Come to the dark side my little ones where life is good


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## Talynn (Sep 10, 2008)

Thank you, Elana. It helps to feel validated 
*eats some ice cream*

Like I may have said, a while ago, I would have never dreamed of using something I (wrongly, *when used correectly of course*) assumed to be cruel, but then I looked at what I was doing instead, and it seemed even worse. (In situations when she simply would not respond)

I've been really looking into starting to use a clicker (not to take the thread too far off track) and it sounds like a great tool. Just been using old fashioned verbal / hand cues until now. The only thing I wondered was, is the clicker something that you should really only start with a puppy? I assume it will work well with an adult dog, but just wanted the word...

And, yep, everything that I have "taught" Sadie has been all positive. She responds excellently to that.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

You can start any dog of any age on the clicker thing. Heck.. they use it to train Killer Whales at Sea World.. and they don't get all those as puppies.... 

www.clickertraining.com

The beauty of the clicker is the precise timing. The downfall of the clicker is when your timing is off (operator error) and you just rewarded the wrong thing. Give it a go. thuis dog I have is mostly clicker trained. 

And be careful of WV.. I heard on another thread he is a Sith... (I actually believe, having read his posts, that he is one of those dog trainers that just "gets" dogs and can get them to do anything.. years of experience coupled with that special talent that just gets dogs to gravitate to his requests... meanwhile, people like me bumble along and do the best we can).

Ice Cream is a sure cure for guilt, sadness, worry, anger... Test it on a 4 year old and see if it works...


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