# Belgian Malinois vs. Border Collie: Which is right for me?



## Splashstorm

Which of these dogs is the most drivey, charged, crazy, willing-to-do-whatever-you-want workaholic? I know the Border collie is smarter, but which of the two is easier trained? I heard Mal can be quite stubborn at first. I really want a dog that can get up and go, 0-1000 mph whenever you want it to for whatever reason, and who will do and think everything with full heart. I really want to do all sorts of dog sports, and that includes teaching silly tricks to my dog. I want a dog that will never tire, and which one of the two bonds more closely with it's owner? 

Thanks!


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## Tofu_pup

Go meet individuals from both breeds to get a better idea of which you'd prefer.


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## Sibe

It's dangerous and ignorant for us to pick a certain breed for you. As Tofu said you need to meet some yourself to see what your preference is. The breeds themselves have typical characteristics but every dog is an individual that may or may not have those characteristics. There are dogs in both breeds that are charged, crazy, high drive, and bonds strongly.

The border collies I've seen and met (which is at agility trials, so take this in that perspective) is insanely hyper, active, attentive, and closely (sometimes too closely) bonded with their owner. I've only met a few mals, they've also been alert and attentive, and a bit more stoic and less crazy/neurotic but still charged up and ready to go at all times.


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## lil_fuzzy

The type of dog you're after is the type that ends up in shelters a lot. Have you checked out your local shelters? With an adult dog you know what you get, if you get a puppy, even from a good breeder with tested parents, there is no guarantee you will get the drive you're after.


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## mashlee08

Just gonna say this, asking for a Mal with insane drive is in my opinion ,stupid, unless your going to be putting it in a working everyday situation and I mean everyday. both of these breeds need to work, they need a job to do all the time. 
People ask for this quite often, get a driven puppy and then can't handle it. I think it would be wise to stay away from working lines. You will get exactly what you want from a breeder who breeds for pets. The breeder will give you the puppy that fits your everyday needs. They are both great choices, but I am bias, I love Mals I would own one in a heartbeat, but you cannot go past a border collie either. 
However neither of these dogs are for the faint hearted, they are both a HUGE commitment, more so then getting any other breed. I would be inclined to go more border based on your OP. But you really have to meet both breeds and decide for yourself.


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## juliemule

Of course I choose the mals, and think they are smarter too lol. Biggest differences I see, mals tend to be more aloof, can be aggressive, and don't HAVE to herd everything.

Stubborn, maybe, definitely more stoic, not as neurotic, but need to work all the time.

Ditto mashlee. Be careful what you wish for in a high drive dog. They seriously need work several hours everyday!


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## Laurelin

Yes... be careful. Asking for 'high drive' in border collies or Mals is likely to get you way more dog than you'd ever want. The most drivey dog may not be the best choice for a sports dog. Trust me, I've trained with some insanely driven and out of control dogs whose owners call it 'drive'. Drive without control has you ending up with the dog crashing through the agility course knocking bars and flying off course. Or the dog that redirects onto its owner when frustrated. Or the dog that slams its face into the box every time in flyball. I've seen all that before.

I think for most sports the better dogs tend to be a little toned down. The supersuper high drive can be flashy but the moderately driven dogs are easier to harness and more reliable. ESPECIALLY if you have never participated in dogs sports before, I'd be wary of going all out. The dog will be your pet most the time, find a dog you like to live with. Learn on a good ol' reliable dog, imo. Especially in agility. Less room for errors and when you do get a high drive dog, you'll be much more prepared. 

Also keep in mind the average dog sports person only sticks with sports for 2 years or less. If you're not already involved, WAIT. Seriously. 

I think border collies are the easier breed. They're softer dogs usually and usually a little less aloof. Not as prone to bite first, ask later. I like both breeds but am not the right owner for a mal. Maybe a fuzzy show-bred belgian one day.


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## Pawzk9

Both tend to be drivy, charged, crazy workaholics. I would think BCs are more willing-to-do. I keep telling myself I don't have enough for a BC to do - which is the only reason I don't own one. I owned a Malinois once. I wouldn't own another. But even though she came from working lines I don't think she was totally typical. She didn't have much of a work ethic and wasn't very bright (but sweet as pie.) I think if I trained then like I do now, I probably would have gotten more out of her, but still, not a breed I'd like to invest my time in. If you are wanting an over-the-top drivey dog, you need to ask yourself if you are willing/able to hold up your end of the bargain. Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it. I found that out when I finally got my dreamed-for totally cattle-working line Aussie, in my 50s. She's been a wonderful dog and is multiple titled in 4 sports and several different venues. She's terrific. And I haven't been a slacker - have done more with her than many people do. But I would have done her more justice if I'd gotten that much talent when I was younger. (IE, she'd have a WTCH instead of started working titles and an OTCH instead of a couple of CDXs. She went all the way in Rally, and we are still working on advancing our freestyle titles) So you need to look at how your lifestyle meshes with that kind of commitment and if you have time to do the work the dog needs. Getting the dog who has the potential is just a start. The rest is up to you.


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## Pawzk9

Sibe said:


> It's dangerous and ignorant for us to pick a certain breed for you. As Tofu said you need to meet some yourself to see what your preference is. The breeds themselves have typical characteristics but every dog is an individual that may or may not have those characteristics. There are dogs in both breeds that are charged, crazy, high drive, and bonds strongly.
> 
> The border collies I've seen and met (which is at agility trials, so take this in that perspective) is insanely hyper, active, attentive, and closely (sometimes too closely) bonded with their owner. I've only met a few mals, they've also been alert and attentive, and a bit more stoic and less crazy/neurotic but still charged up and ready to go at all times.


I agree with you that it's not possible to pick out the best dog for someone you don't even know. I will say that many of the BCs I've met are capable of lying quietly and watching another dog work. But those would be Border collies at stock trials. You really don't see the other kind of dog trialing. It would be frowned upon. I really think that some people (certainly not all) doing Agility and Flyball mistake over-arousal for drive and encourage that sort of behavior. Stockdog handlers recognize that a good dog can be full of drive and still control themselves, and so that's the sort of dog they choose and develop.


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## juliemule

Are you wanting to do any schutzhund or sports involving bitework?


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## Splashstorm

Thanks for all the answers. I do know the difference between drive and hyperness. I don't want a dog that will be bouncing off the walls inside. And no, I don't think I am interested in any protection work. I'm more into agility, obedience, sulky, and that sort of stuff.


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## malsbad

You may want to read this article by Bay Area Dog Trainer. Note to the American Public: Belgian Malinois Look Don't Touch. I don't agree with everything he says but it's worth looking at in terms of the commitment to this breed. There is the "sharpness" factor more present with these dogs more than the collies and I think they require more intensive people socializing than the collies to keep them from becoming agressive toward people that they don't know. I have one and as a younger pup she let everyone at the vet clinic handle her without batting an eye. I have now trained her to comfortably wear a muzzle at the vets because she would not be reliable anymore without it. Even highly trained police and military mals often wear muzzles in certain situations. Something to bear in mind. That being said, if you dedicate time to them, I found her to be a loving companion and lightning quick to learn, physically tireless and always ready to go. Plan on 3 hours a day for physical activity and training at least depending what you want to do. I would meet a number of both breeds, they are VERY DIFFERENT and there are lots of them needing new homes because they are HIGH MAINTENANCE.


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## mashlee08

Have you done any dog sports before?


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## malsbad

I wanted to add that I don't do any formal dog sports with her but that is the amount of time it takes for her to be happy and good to live with and I can see that I need to tailor her training time even more to bring out the best in her. 

Also wanted to add re: the "look but don't touch article" (granted the person who wrote it sounds like a deeply opinionated dude and the "tempered steel" stuff can't help but make you smirk) look at the bottom after the article because the feed-back from people who own and train malinois is even more useful than the article because it is more balanced. I hope you find a good match for you!


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## valuta8

The Border COllie is your best bet if your looking for tricks, dog sports, agility and lots and lots of go.  I had a malinois once and it was absolutely insane, and a real painn because it *never* listened. It was a pack of one.


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## juliemule

I would go check out both breeds. See them working in the venues you are interested in. I think bc are definitely easier to handle. Mals are more intense, but once you learn how to deal with them, you just can't beat their work drives.


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## Splashstorm

I read on a border collie forum that the border collies can't compete in ringsport because it's too intense for them, but Mals dominate. Does that mean the Malinois is a better overall sporting breed? I know they compete and do great in a lot of other sports too, but which breed tends to do better?


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## Tofu_pup

It's a pretty broad generalization to say that ALL BCs can't compete in ringsport. It's not the best breed to choose if that's your area of focus but a stable BC can do pretty much anything you put its mind to. The "better" breed is in the eyes of the beholder. If you're not interested in bite work/protection than this "fact" doesn't make a Malinois any better or worse for you personally.


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## Poly

Splashstorm said:


> I read on a border collie forum that the border collies can't compete in ringsport because it's too intense for them, but Mals dominate. Does that mean the Malinois is a better overall sporting breed?


Short answer is NO.

Remember when we talk about breed characteristics, we are looking at general expectations around a norm, and that individual dogs can vary considerably from the norm. Also, beyond the _breed_, there is the line - and breeding lines matter a lot. 

That having been said, both breeds tend to do exceptionally well in the activities that you mentioned you are interested in. That is, they show up in the title lists out of proportion to their registration numbers. And from my personal experience, I can say that both breeds are well represented at the appropriate trials. 

Remember too that these are team sports and that you have to train your dog AND train tourself as a handler. Nothing is automatic and if you want to participate in these activities, anticipate doing a LOT of work with your dog. 

They can be very rewarding if you go into them with a positive attitude and very frustrating if you don't. 

Whichever dog you choose, I wish you the best.


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## Laurelin

mashlee08 said:


> Have you done any dog sports before?


Really you need to answer this. You need to realize how much money and time you can sink into these things. Also, have you had experience with either breed? I really really really don't recommend people get either breed without meeting a bunch first. 

You should be looking at the dog FAR beyond what does best in sports. Sports are fun but you have to live with this dog otherwise. Pick a dog that has the characteristics you want to live with. 

Go to sports trials, herding trials, dog shows, work in rescue to get hands on time with the breeds. Get experience first. You don't sound like you have much experience with these kinds of dogs.

Mals dominate ringsport because that's what they were bred to do. Border collies are bred for other tasks. They're generally a softer breed than a mal.


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## Pawzk9

Splashstorm said:


> I read on a border collie forum that the border collies can't compete in ringsport because it's too intense for them, but Mals dominate. Does that mean the Malinois is a better overall sporting breed? I know they compete and do great in a lot of other sports too, but which breed tends to do better?


they may not be terribly successful, but I don't think there is any breed that "can't compete" in protection sports. It's important to remember that BCs are NOT bred for a strong bite. (not terribly useful to have a dog tearing up sheep). I actually trialed an Aussie in SchH. He enjoyed it, but we were fighting the fact that his instincts were not the same as dogs traditionally bred for that sort of work.


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## Splashstorm

I've never participated in dog sports, but I do know very clearly what I want, and I'm willing to stick to my decisions. I heard a couple people say a Mal was like a BC on steroids, so I'll probably get a Mal.


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## Tofu_pup

Splashstorm said:


> I've never participated in dog sports, but I do know very clearly what I want, and I'm willing to stick to my decisions. I heard a couple people say a Mal was like a BC on steroids, so I'll probably get a Mal.


Except that Mals are generally bred to bite first and ask questions later. Again, go meet individuals of both breeds. Talk to their owners. Talk to breeders. Go to agility trials or other competitions.


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## Splashstorm

Thanks, I'll do a lot more research, rest assured!


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## mashlee08

I would steer away from a mal if you havnt done dog sports before. Honestly. Go with a BC,much safer choice.


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## juliemule

Splashstorm said:


> Thanks, I'll do a lot more research, rest assured!


 If you decide on a mal, let me know you're area, I can refer you to a breeder. You can also start out with a softer mal, or a pretty laid back one. 

I had one returned, the buyer wanted a protection prospect, and at 13 weeks said he was too much to handle :/

However I have placed mals with first time owners and it has worked well, though not without lots of calls, advice, questions, and trainers. If you are willing to put in the work, though its a lot, they are just awesome dogs!


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## Splashstorm

I think I could handle a Mal, as juliemule pointed out--it'll take A LOT of time and effort, but it'll be worth it! I already had a breeder in mind ^_^ I was thinking of Ot Vitosha. Ivan advertises that his dogs have high drive but are great with other pets and in the house.


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## Laurelin

If you know exactly what you want why would you think that mals are bcs on steroids? They're not. Two different breeds with different temperaments.


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## juliemule

Splashstorm said:


> I think I could handle a Mal, as juliemule pointed out--it'll take A LOT of time and effort, but it'll be worth it! I already had a breeder in mind ^_^ I was thinking of Ot Vitosha. Ivan advertises that his dogs have high drive but are great with other pets and in the house.


 Ivan has great dogs. I have one of his bitches here. Great detection dog, awesome full mouth bites, good grips, very stable dog, will work all day. Lives in the house, loves kids and people, as long as they aren't threatening. Nerves are good. 
Tell him what you want, first mal, he will get you a good choice, and back you with any issues.

Loganhaus also has awesome dogs, more streetwork than sports so tougher dogs, but they really can do anything. If you could spend some time with their dogs and handlers that will sure give you a good idea.


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## Pawzk9

juliemule said:


> Ivan has great dogs. I have one of his bitches here. Great detection dog, awesome full mouth bites, good grips, very stable dog, will work all day. Lives in the house, loves kids and people, as long as they aren't threatening. Nerves are good.
> Tell him what you want, first mal, he will get you a good choice, and back you with any issues.
> 
> Loganhaus also has awesome dogs, more streetwork than sports so tougher dogs, but they really can do anything. If you could spend some time with their dogs and handlers that will sure give you a good idea.


So, Julie, do you REALLY want to encourage this guy to get a Malinois because someone told him it is like a BC on steroids??


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## Splashstorm

Julie, it's good to hear another great review on Ivan and his dogs. I'll check out Loganhaus too. 

@Pawzk9, why does it matter if I want a Mal because of it's stronger drive and energy? Maybe I want that type of dog because it's always been the kind I've wanted? Maybe I do have the right home and time for that type?


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## Laurelin

Splashstorm said:


> Julie, it's good to hear another great review on Ivan and his dogs. I'll check out Loganhaus too.
> 
> @Pawzk9, why does it matter if I want a Mal because of it's stronger drive and energy? Maybe I want that type of dog because it's always been the kind I've wanted? Maybe I do have the right home and time for that type?


Because you keep referring to them as 'border collies on steroids' which they're not. Because you seem to think the ONLY thing that matters is 'having a lot of drive and energy'. You won't answer any questions about your dog experience and breed experience. What dog experience do you have? Have you trained a dog before? In what? Do you have the money to do 'all sorts of dogsports'? 

Mals are bred to bite. This means they're a more difficult breed than most. They need a lot more training and control than 99% of dogs. They're probably one of the last dogs I'd ever suggest for a new owner. There's a lot that can go wrong and when it goes wrong on a malinois, it can be dangerous. Also this quote:



> I don't want a dog that will be bouncing off the walls inside.


Even the mals I know that are worked HARD in multiple sports do not settle down indoors. Is this what you REALLY want or are you just interested in the flash on the field? Most people don't want or need a super high octane sports dog. I've known very experienced dog handlers end up in well over their head. I have a friend having a lot of trouble with her sports bred BC and this is someone that has already titled several dogs (herding breeds) very highly. 

If you have a dog right now, get into sports with that dog and get experience around both these breeds. I guarantee if you start taking agility classes and going to trials you'll see hundreds of BCs and quite a few belgians. It will give you a much better feel for what you're signing up for.


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## juliemule

Pawzk9 said:


> So, Julie, do you REALLY want to encourage this guy to get a Malinois because someone told him it is like a BC on steroids??


Paws, I would love to encourage people to learn about good bred mals from great breeders. They won't sell to someone who has no business owning one. If he does fit, they will get him with a good dog that will match what he needs. 
Many people get in over their heads with malinois, that was a poor match, or just wasn't ready for that type of dog. Didn't you own one once?


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## Splashstorm

That's true. A good breeder would never sell to someone who wasn't prepared. Right now I'm in the research stage, and by the time I do get a Mal, I would have finished my exotic animal training school. The school's training and handling will not only prepare me for tigers and bears, but also dogs and all other types of animals.


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## Splashstorm

Also, there is a difference between drive and hyperness that I am acutely aware of.


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## juliemule

Laurelin said:


> Because you keep referring to them as 'border collies on steroids' which they're not. Because you seem to think the ONLY thing that matters is 'having a lot of drive and energy'. You won't answer any questions about your dog experience and breed experience. What dog experience do you have? Have you trained a dog before? In what? Do you have the money to do 'all sorts of dogsports'?
> 
> Mals are bred to bite. This means they're a more difficult breed than most. They need a lot more training and control than 99% of dogs. They're probably one of the last dogs I'd ever suggest for a new owner. There's a lot that can go wrong and when it goes wrong on a malinois, it can be dangerous. Also this quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Even the mals I know that are worked HARD in multiple sports do not settle down indoors. Is this what you REALLY want or are you just interested in the flash on the field? Most people don't want or need a super high octane sports dog. I've known very experienced dog handlers end up in well over their head. I have a friend having a lot of trouble with her sports bred BC and this is someone that has already titled several dogs (herding breeds) very highly.
> 
> If you have a dog right now, get into sports with that dog and get experience around both these breeds. I guarantee if you start taking agility classes and going to trials you'll see hundreds of BCs and quite a few belgians. It will give you a much better feel for what you're signing up for.


Most of this is very true. However they will settle indoors, its part of training. Right now I have 8, and all will settle down fine, except the two pups, who are learning when to turn it off. 

They do have to be worked an incredible amount in order for this to happen. Just for example, today started at 7 am with a 45 min run in the fields. About 15 minutes of hard fetch. Breakfast, a break, then about an hour of scentwork. Then to the lake, three hours of non stop fetch and swim. 

Now we will have lunch, a break, then do some obedience, bitework, and agility work this evening, another game of fast paced fetch, and a long run tonight. 

This is about five days a week. The routine varies, but this is the amount of time it takes to have house pet malinois lol. 

Not all are bred for aggression. Some of the washouts may not have much of a fight drive. It is much more common for them to want to bite than bc though. Many are extremely friendly. Even though they can be great with people they are very reactive, and can bite with little warning. 

Every person that owns a mal has started with a first one somewhere. It's so much better to get with a very experienced breeder/trainer like Ivan than to purchase a PD washout that will seriously teach you the hard way. 

There are several rescues, but usually these aren't the best to take on for first time owners, as they come with more issues than normal mals often times. 

They aren't werewolves, still just dogs.


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## Laurelin

I'm not saying they're not dogs, just a harder breed than most. Most people I know that have successfully made the jump to mals (and it's actually been a decent number now) have already had experience with dog training and/or sports training and already have had some other sporty/higher drive breeds under their belt.


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## juliemule

Laurelin said:


> I'm not saying they're not dogs, just a harder breed than most. Most people I know that have successfully made the jump to mals (and it's actually been a decent number now) have already had experience with dog training and/or sports training and already have had some other sporty/higher drive breeds under their belt.


Sorry I didn't mean to direct that all at you. Just the part about being kept indoors. I agree with you they are a different breed, and not for the faint of heart lol.


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## EFoxwell

Belgium Mal's, in my experience, require a seasoned owner with plenty of time on their hands for them. They are the primary dog in use at our Correctional Institutions in Delaware, and they do a great job. But not the dog for me, as I don't have the time of day to do that much exercising with him/her.


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## juliemule

EFoxwell said:


> Belgium Mal's, in my experience, require a seasoned owner with plenty of time on their hands for them. They are the primary dog in use at our Correctional Institutions in Delaware, and they do a great job. But not the dog for me, as I don't have the time of day to do that much exercising with him/her.


Many LE agencies, corrections facilities, the military here and other countries, personal protection companies, border patrol, dog sports enthusiasts, are switching to malinois. The secret service uses them exclusively, and Lackland AFB has a devoted breeding program specializing in mals. Truly amazing dogs!


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## Splashstorm

Do any of you happen to know how Australian Cattle dogs compare when it comes to drive, energy, intelligence, and trainability?


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## Pawzk9

Splashstorm said:


> Julie, it's good to hear another great review on Ivan and his dogs. I'll check out Loganhaus too.
> 
> @Pawzk9, why does it matter if I want a Mal because of it's stronger drive and energy? Maybe I want that type of dog because it's always been the kind I've wanted? Maybe I do have the right home and time for that type?


Possibly. But "BC on steroids" sends up all kinds of red flags. Now you are thinking about ACDs (which generally don't make the best sport dogs). What happens if you get six months down the line and decide that dog sports is really not your thing? Are you going to have something for this dog to do? The fact that you've never done any dog sports is sort of concerning. Most people learn on their first dog, and when they are to the point of knowing what sport they want to do, and doing it, the competition dog comes along. My concern is that I see lots of people who think they want high drive dogs, because they really don't know what that involves. And once the dog is there, they find out they really don't need the "on steroid" part.


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## Pawzk9

juliemule said:


> Paws, I would love to encourage people to learn about good bred mals from great breeders. They won't sell to someone who has no business owning one. If he does fit, they will get him with a good dog that will match what he needs.
> Many people get in over their heads with malinois, that was a poor match, or just wasn't ready for that type of dog. Didn't you own one once?


Point taken. I did once own a Malinois, but she couldn't hold a candle to my original breed (which I am not going to mention so this person doesn't start looking at them!)


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## Pawzk9

Splashstorm said:


> That's true. A good breeder would never sell to someone who wasn't prepared. Right now I'm in the research stage, and by the time I do get a Mal, I would have finished my exotic animal training school. The school's training and handling will not only prepare me for tigers and bears, but also dogs and all other types of animals.


Exotic animal training school? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!


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## juliemule

Pawzk9 said:


> Point taken. I did once own a Malinois, but she couldn't hold a candle to my original breed (which I am not going to mention so this person doesn't start looking at them!)


Too late. Poorly paired mals and handlers can't accomplish much. There are some people that when paired with the right dog work great together. Then others that can take any dog and excel. 

I may do ok with one good aussie, but not with them.all in general. You have to find the breed that suits you, and you understand their needs to provide.


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## Splashstorm

Well, I just really want the best dog for me. I am, like I said, in the research stage. I am looking at Australian Cattle Dogs right now, but I am still leaning towards Malinois.


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## Pawzk9

juliemule said:


> Too late. Poorly paired mals and handlers can't accomplish much. There are some people that when paired with the right dog work great together. Then others that can take any dog and excel.
> 
> I may do ok with one good aussie, but not with them.all in general. You have to find the breed that suits you, and you understand their needs to provide.


Shrug. I'm not trying to sell you on an Aussie. And I CERTAINLY don't want to sell the OP on one. I did accomplish some with the Malinios. I just didn't enjoy working with her. She was soft, apologetic, had no work ethic and wasn't very bright. I don't claim she was a typical example of the breed, but enough for me to know that they aren't the breed I want to spend my training time on. I just think it's easier on a team when they are suited to each other. There's nothing in particular about Malinois, appearance or behavior wise, which appeals to me as a personal dog, though they are fine for the people who really like and want them. It's fairer to the dog if I really adore it. There are plenty of breeds for anyone to have the breed they find most appealing and most enjoyable to work with.


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## Splashstorm

> And I CERTAINLY don't want to sell the OP on one.


What is that supposed to mean? Are you seriously acting like you know me right now? You are being pretty rude. Would you rather I have gone off and gotten the first breed that popped into my head with no research then? Do you have a problem with someone asking for opinions?


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## juliemule

Pawzk9 said:


> Shrug. I'm not trying to sell you on an Aussie. And I CERTAINLY don't want to sell the OP on one. I did accomplish some with the Malinios. I just didn't enjoy working with her. She was soft, apologetic, had no work ethic and wasn't very bright. I don't claim she was a typical example of the breed, but enough for me to know that they aren't the breed I want to spend my training time on. I just think it's easier on a team when they are suited to each other. There's nothing in particular about Malinois, appearance or behavior wise, which appeals to me as a personal dog, though they are fine for the people who really like and want them. It's fairer to the dog if I really adore it. There are plenty of breeds for anyone to have the breed they find most appealing and most enjoyable to work with.


 Not typical, but its good that you found out you don't want to work them. Not many people can. That's what its all about is finding the dog that you totally love. I'm not trying to sell anyone on the mals either, and I don't need to be so argumentative on situations where someone wants to actually research the breed before jumping in. So when someone has questions about them I will happily answer. I haven't owned an aussie, and have worked around plenty and have zero desire to own one, so I don't argue on if someone should or shouldn't study more into them. Each dog is an individual, maybe I just haven't seen an.impressive example of the breed, but definitely recommend anyone interested in any breed to find out what they can beforehand.


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## Pawzk9

Splashstorm said:


> What is that supposed to mean? Are you seriously acting like you know me right now? You are being pretty rude. Would you rather I have gone off and gotten the first breed that popped into my head with no research then? Do you have a problem with someone asking for opinions?


Just that after getting up at 5:30 to help with a rescue run for three dogs, I'm relieved that a person who wants a dog because someone told him it's like a BC on crack ISN'T looking closely at my breed.


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## Pawzk9

juliemule said:


> Not typical, but its good that you found out you don't want to work them. Not many people can. .


Not a matter of can or can't. (and I've also worked around quite a few Malinois and now know I have zero desire to own one.) I only have a problem with someone asking for opinions if it really sounds like they are looking for a dog for all the wrong reasons, and probably can't handle what they think they want. I'm sure you hate to see Malinois in rescue too. Hopefully, he will at least buy one from a good breeder who will take the dog back when he realizes a BC on Crack isn't really what anyone needs (or what he'd be getting)


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## juliemule

Splashstorm said:


> Well, I just really want the best dog for me. I am, like I said, in the research stage. I am looking at Australian Cattle Dogs right now, but I am still leaning towards Malinois.


Before I owned malinois, I had gsds. I worked with some border collies, and a few other breeds I liked, but didn't quite "have it". I had been around a few mals and was amazed at what I saw. So I researched, spent time with the breed, and was offered one. I was pretty leary at first, and had a few rude comments made as to why I didn't need that breed.

Owning your first one won't he easy. Even after high drive shepherds and bc it was a different experience. Once we had the kinks worked out, it all fell together. Several people were shocked when we came back and worked amazingly. It's been mals and dutchies ever since, and I've even sold some good dogs to the naysayers. So find out what you are getting into, if it works, go with the breed you enjoy.


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## Splashstorm

Thank you very much Julie. I am really drawn to Mals the most of all the breeds I am researching. And honestly, I love all breeds and no breed is really "better than others" but I am feeling a negative energy in this thread right now.


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## mashlee08

I agree, this thread feels like it has gone sour and that's no good. All we really want to do is help you make the best choice but you have to understand it does send up red flags when you say a "BC on steroids", it makes you sound inexperienced and like you are wanting a mal for all the wrong reasons, and thats not good with either breed.They really are completely different. Have you looked in Terveruns or Aussie shepherds. A terv will give you excellent results in any dog sport. I think they are a little easier to handle then the mals but thats just me. They are also not as likely to bite first ask later. I have a terv who is pretty chilled, but will go and go and go and go when outside. But the terv is my breed, like the mal is Julies'  if you have dogs of your own I would start doing the sports that your into with them first. As getting starting off with a new breed and a new sport at the same time is not the most ideal combination. In saying that, if you go with a good breeder with any breed, they will place you with the dog that best fits you.


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## Pawzk9

mashlee08 said:


> I agree, this thread feels like it has gone sour and that's no good. All we really want to do is help you make the best choice but you have to understand it does send up red flags when you say a "BC on steroids", it makes you sound inexperienced and like you are wanting a mal for all the wrong reasons, and thats not good with either breed.They really are completely different. Have you looked in Terveruns or Aussie shepherds. A terv will give you excellent results in any dog sport. I think they are a little easier to handle then the mals but thats just me. They are also not as likely to bite first ask later. I have a terv who is pretty chilled, but will go and go and go and go when outside. But the terv is my breed, like the mal is Julies'  if you have dogs of your own I would start doing the sports that your into with them first. As getting starting off with a new breed and a new sport at the same time is not the most ideal combination. In saying that, if you go with a good breeder with any breed, they will place you with the dog that best fits you.


No, no, no. An Aussie is not what he is looking for (they aren't like anything on crack)


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## petpeeve

It's difficult to decipher exactly what the op's intentions are with this dog, beyond "wanting to do dogsports" which is somewhat vague, and a brief mention of ringsport. I think that stating more CLEARLY DEFINED GOALS in detail would help posters here to offer advice. I also don't think the op has answered definitively as of yet, what actual dog experience they have, ie: present training skills. Those two aspects are CRUCIAL in determining which breed might be appropriate in their particular situation. ... I dunno, I had a good look through the thread but maybe I missed the answers to these questions.

_"Which (breed) is right for me?" _... This may sound silly, but the second half of that equation is "which handler is right for the breed?". Hope that makes sense. IMHO, it's all about synergy, and being mutually compatible/ beneficial from both sides. And thus far, I haven't seen any convincing evidence, personally, that either a Mal or BC is a wise choice. 

Just my .02 worth.


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## juliemule

mashlee08 said:


> I agree, this thread feels like it has gone sour and that's no good. All we really want to do is help you make the best choice but you have to understand it does send up red flags when you say a "BC on steroids", it makes you sound inexperienced and like you are wanting a mal for all the wrong reasons, and thats not good with either breed.They really are completely different. Have you looked in Terveruns or Aussie shepherds. A terv will give you excellent results in any dog sport. I think they are a little easier to handle then the mals but thats just me. They are also not as likely to bite first ask later. I have a terv who is pretty chilled, but will go and go and go and go when outside. But the terv is my breed, like the mal is Julies'  if you have dogs of your own I would start doing the sports that your into with them first. As getting starting off with a new breed and a new sport at the same time is not the most ideal combination. In saying that, if you go with a good breeder with any breed, they will place you with the dog that best fits you.


 Lol, even a lot of mal owners describe their dogs as " a shepherd on crack" , so its probably something the poster heard. 
I do agree with most posted on the thread though, and its going to be a big change switching over to any high drive breed, but what fun!

The tervs are great too, groens, and lakenois, and all very similar to the malinois. I think the mals have just been specifically bred to be "more" energy, drive, hunt, fight, than the others, sort of concentrated, if that makes sense. 
There is an awesome terv I met in Wisconsin who is a SAR dog. She is so sweet, soft, and calm, Yet still has great work ability and is very methodical. Beautiful girl, she just prances around doing her searches. Lots of grooming involved with that coat!


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## Splashstorm

petpeeve said:


> It's difficult to decipher exactly what the op's intentions are with this dog, beyond "wanting to do dogsports" which is somewhat vague, and a brief mention of ringsport. I think that stating more CLEARLY DEFINED GOALS in detail would help posters here to offer advice. I also don't think the op has answered definitively as of yet, what actual dog experience they have, ie: present training skills. Those two aspects are CRUCIAL in determining which breed might be appropriate in their particular situation. ... I dunno, I had a good look through the thread but maybe I missed the answers to these questions.
> 
> _"Which (breed) is right for me?" _... This may sound silly, but the second half of that equation is "which handler is right for the breed?". Hope that makes sense. IMHO, it's all about synergy, and being mutually compatible/ beneficial from both sides. And thus far, I haven't seen any convincing evidence, personally, that either a Mal or BC is a wise choice.
> 
> Just my .02 worth.


Exactly which sports I want to do? I want to do obedience, agility, frisbee, flyball, sulky (not really a sport but an activity, lol), and of course hiking/jogging. I didn't mention that I wanted to do ringsports, I only said that the Mal seemed to have more drive because they can do ringsport and a BC could not, in which case someone brought up the point that BC weren't bred for protection. Contrary though, aren't both bred for the same thing? ie, herding? Anyway, I already stated that I don't think any breed is really "better" than others. It's just that I want to find the best breed for me, and I would like high drive. 

Experience? I don't have experience with dog sports, but I am getting my dog _after_ getting my degree in exotic animal training. The facility I am training at makes sure we can train every type of animal, including dogs, so this is why I am not concerned about whether I can handle the breed or not. After all, a dog is a dog. The most stubborn breed is not as stubborn as the average tiger xD


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## Splashstorm

And BTW I did a lot (A LOT) of thinking and I've decided on the Mal above all breeds.


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## lil_fuzzy

I don't think people are concerned that you can't train the dog. Training the dog is easy, I know I can train any breed of dog too. But I'm not sure I could handle a mal. A high drive dog will just keep going and going and going for hours, and if you don't provide entertainment for a large portion of the day, the dog will become destructive and neurotic.

It's great that you wanna do sports, but what are you going to do to entertain the dog on the days when you don't do sports? And also, you wouldn't train for a sport for hours every day, so even on the day when you go to a club to do sports, you still need to provide some other form of entertainment. And what are you going to do to entertain the dog for the first 12-18 months of its life before it's allowed to do jumping and weaving etc, and not allowed to come running with you?


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