# How long does it take to train loose leash walking!?



## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm having trouble with my year and a year old Shih Tzu, Honey Bun. I started training her to walk nicely a few months ago. Before that I didn't feel like training her. So consistently for months now I've stopped every time she's pulled on the leash. Our walks are still mostly stops. I can't do the change directions thing because I get dizzy. I don't want to do training with treats. I've tried that before with my dogs and they pay attention to me, but only because I'm a treat dispenser. The Easy Walk harness didn't work. Btw, this is an 8 1/2 pound dog. It's not like she's going to pull me down, it's just annoying when she pulls and it hurts my hand. She's not praise motivated. She's a Shih Tzu that's not eager to please.

I trained my 6 year old Shih Tzu with the start/stop method and he walks perfectly on the leash. I can't remember how long it took though.


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## a7dk (Mar 30, 2011)

I've been training my 1.5 year old mutt for about 2.5 months now...there's improvement but he still needs plenty of work. I definitely use treats though. I don't care that he thinks I'm a treat dispenser, at least heels by my side, which is what I want. I figure eventually I can wean off the treats but I need the behavior in place first. Makes walking much easier.

I also use the gentle leader - I recommend it. Works worlds better than the easy-walk harness did for my dog. He's 60 pounds and used to pull me right down the sidewalk like a rag doll, but now he's doing much better. Loose-leash walking is definitely the hardest thing I've tried to train so far, though. Everything else came much, much quicker. I'm sure you just need to keep at it.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Thanks for your reply.  It sounds like we're at a very similar place in progress and our dogs are the same age! I guess I can incorporate a few treats.... I would love to use a gentle leader, but Honey Bun has such a flat face, the loop would never stay on. Here's a pic (she's the one on the right) sorry the pic is so big:


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

About 4 hours with treats and a toy.

If you learn how to properly fade a treat it won't be an issue.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

luvntzus said:


> I'm having trouble with my year and a year old Shih Tzu, Honey Bun. I started training her to walk nicely a few months ago. Before that I didn't feel like training her. So consistently for months now I've stopped every time she's pulled on the leash. Our walks are still mostly stops. I can't do the change directions thing because I get dizzy. I don't want to do training with treats. I've tried that before with my dogs and they pay attention to me, but only because I'm a treat dispenser. The Easy Walk harness didn't work. Btw, this is an 8 1/2 pound dog. It's not like she's going to pull me down, it's just annoying when she pulls and it hurts my hand. She's not praise motivated. She's a Shih Tzu that's not eager to please.
> 
> 
> 
> I trained my 6 year old Shih Tzu with the start/stop method and he walks perfectly on the leash. I can't remember how long it took though.


Sorry, I would only be able to ventue to say how long it might take to train it with treats, because that is how I would teach it (at least at first) Eventually, getting to go where you want to go would be the reward. Especially with more independent dogs, it's important to make sure there is "something in it for the dog."


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I figure the reward is being able to move forward with the walk. Stopping isn't what she wants, so loose leash means she gets to keep going. We also have a dog park in my apartment complex and a lot of times I take them there. So polite leash walking, then big reward of running free and then nice walking going home.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> I figure the reward is being able to move forward with the walk. Stopping isn't what she wants, so loose leash means she gets to keep going. We also have a dog park in my apartment complex and a lot of times I take them there. So polite leash walking, then big reward of running free and then nice walking going home.


but that's obviously not enough or you would have it by now?


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm hearing from other people that loose leash walking takes time. I used the stop method with my other Shih Tzu and it worked. He walks perfectly on the leash- also independent. I just can't remember how long it took. I was also frustrated with the first post. After reading this thread I'm willing to incorporate some treats.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

luvntzus said:


> I figure the reward is being able to move forward with the walk. Stopping isn't what she wants, so loose leash means she gets to keep going. We also have a dog park in my apartment complex and a lot of times I take them there. So polite leash walking, then big reward of running free and then nice walking going home.


I guess the question would have to be: is the reward clear enough and quickly accessable enough that the dog associates it with the behavior you want? If it's not working for you, I'd think that might be an indication that the answer is no. The most important consideration when you are making a behavior plan is that the dog determines what is reinforcing and what is not. If it is not making the behavior you want occur more often, it's not really reinforcement. If it doesn't decrease the frequency of behavior you don't want, it's not negative punishment (which is what stopping forward motion would be intended to be) It's just behavior which is unrelated to your dog's behavior.

I've honestly not seen great results with a lot of dogs with the "be a tree" stuff. Turning or backing up works better. Teaching the dog how to keep a loose leash (ala silky leash and penalty yards) even better.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm going to try the backing up method tomorrow!


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## a7dk (Mar 30, 2011)

katielou said:


> About 4 hours with treats and a toy.
> 
> If you learn how to properly fade a treat it won't be an issue.


Seriously? 4 hours? Your dog must be much quicker than mine, or you're a better trainer!


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

luvntzus said:


> I'm going to try the backing up method tomorrow!


What is the 'backing up' method?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Labmom4 said:


> What is the 'backing up' method?


If the dog heads towards the end of the leash, instead of changing directions, you throw yourself into reverse and go backward until the dog needs to turn to face you. (Not recommended while wearing flip flops). Some dogs have never been taught how not to pull, so if you turn around, they simply zip about to the end of the leash going the other way, because nobody ever taught them what else to do. The thing is, equipment is nice, but it never takes the place of actual, clear training. Pulling is a symptom of disengagement, not the actual problem.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

This may not be the case here but, quite often, 
people with smaller breeds tend to be
a bit more "lax" in their training than those with larger.

Going back to your original question,
with all of our (six) puppies over the years, 
it took between 1 and 3 days after we brought each home, 
to get a consistent loose lead walk (no treats).


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> If the dog heads towards the end of the leash, instead of changing directions, you throw yourself into reverse and go backward until the dog needs to turn to face you. (Not recommended while wearing flip flops). Some dogs have never been taught how not to pull, so if you turn around, they simply zip about to the end of the leash going the other way, because nobody ever taught them what else to do. The thing is, equipment is nice, but it never takes the place of actual, clear training. Pulling is a symptom of disengagement, not the actual problem.


Ok, I'm trying to picture it. You're still facing the same way, but back up. Quickly? Doesnt that just drag the dog back? After the dog turns, then what? I dont think I get it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Labmom4 said:


> Doesnt that just drag the dog back?


I would think that it does.

This is why I prefer a 'choose to heel' type of method, as a foundation, to teach the dog what is expected through a positive approach, ... before venturing elsewhere outside of a closed environment.





> How long does it take to train loose leash walking!?


It takes ... as long as it takes. 

For the most part, dogs will set their own agenda ... which doesn't neccessarily coincide with ours.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

prntmkr said:


> Going back to your original question,
> with all of our (six) puppies over the years,
> it took between 1 and 3 days after we brought each home,
> to get a consistent loose lead walk (no treats).


How on earth did you do that? What breeds were they?

Also wanted to add, she doesn't still pull like a freight train. It was after a couple of lessons that she got the idea and walked much better on the leash. What I've got is that she intermittently pulls with a little bit of pressure.


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## LenaCara (May 11, 2011)

This is what I'm doing with Josie now. I know lots of people may not agree, it's just whats working for me. I let her walk until she is pulling the leash then I pull her back to heal gently. She is only 16lb and I don't jerk her back, I just tug until she is back in heal. I don't do treats because she is awfully low and juggling the treat bag and the leash makes her stop to look at me and she gets the treat for the wrong thing. I can't just keep treats in my hand because my neighborhood has lots of big dogs that scare her so I pick her up and cary her past the large dogs jumping on the fence. Anyway, it took her about a week to stop pulling. She still does when she forgets or sees distractions but it's few and far between as opposed to constant like before. The only thing that the stoping helped with was her playing with the leash and running in front of me. Once she stopped messing around and sat down we kept the walk going. Hope this helps and good luck


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Labmom4 said:


> Ok, I'm trying to picture it. You're still facing the same way, but back up. Quickly? Doesnt that just drag the dog back? After the dog turns, then what? I dont think I get it.


Generally, no, it does not. If you allow the dog to hit the end of the leash it might. That's not the idea. It is the same concept as changing directions (turning) except much more effective.



petpeeve said:


> I would think that it does.
> 
> This is why I prefer a 'choose to heel' type of method, as a foundation, to teach the dog what is expected through a positive approach, ... before venturing elsewhere outside of a closed environment..



Choose to Heel is wonderful. I know some dogs who are brilliant off leash, but don't know how to respond when there's a leash in the picture. (Most likely because the human is handling the leash very badly) I use a combination of methods including choose to heel type exercises, silky leash and change of direction. The back-up, BTW, I got from Sue Ailsby. Ever heard of her?


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## Love That Dog (May 26, 2011)

i single handedly trained my 60 pound boxer loose leash. whew i got so many cauloses...

anyway, before you can do anything, she must learn heel. you dont have to use treats at all, although it is easier.

to teach heel, say heel, and make the leash short so that the dog cant be anywhere but right next to her. praise. (even if she is hard to please, you must praise.) let the leash out long, if she pulls, stop, reel it close, say heel, praise. over and over again. i know your walks will be mostly stops, and you look like an idiot while your doing it, but dogs require patience. to wean off of treats is quite easy, just slowly stop using them. sometimes give treats and praise, some times just praise. eventually your dog will learn.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> The back-up, BTW, I got from Sue Ailsby. Ever heard of her?


Yes, actually I attended a couple of her seminars a few years ago. She's a wonderful speaker. I really like her 'philosophies'.

By coincidence I see that her website url has recently changed from the one I had stored in my faves. I occassionally refer people to her site, ... and here I've probably been sending them to a defunct address lately.  lol

Thanks for mentioning that. I'm now updated and ready to refer once again .. 



My apologies to the OP for going slightly o/t.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Love That Dog said:


> i single handedly trained my 60 pound boxer loose leash. whew i got so many cauloses...
> 
> anyway, before you can do anything, she must learn heel. you dont have to use treats at all, although it is easier.
> 
> to teach heel, say heel, and make the leash short so that the dog cant be anywhere but right next to her. praise. (even if she is hard to please, you must praise.) let the leash out long, if she pulls, stop, reel it close, say heel, praise. over and over again. i know your walks will be mostly stops, and you look like an idiot while your doing it, but dogs require patience. to wean off of treats is quite easy, just slowly stop using them. sometimes give treats and praise, some times just praise. eventually your dog will learn.


Honestly, I don't bother with heel until the dog has really good loose leash walking skills. But then I look at heel as a competition behavior, and want to be sure that both the dog and the human have the skills to do it right before we name it. For my beginning people, we teach the dog to pay attention to the owner (I know there are other schools of thought on that) and how to keep the leash loose.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

a7dk said:


> Seriously? 4 hours? Your dog must be much quicker than mine, or you're a better trainer!


Not really. 
I taught "close" walking off leash and made it much more fun to stay with me than do anything else. Then just added a leash.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

What I'm having her do IS heel. Nobody bash me for this, but I'm going by Cesar Millan's principle that the leader should be in front. (I don't do any of his extreme methods). It makes sense to me. When I've walked her before and she's way out in front of me, she couldn't care less about me. I'm following her around and she doesn't have a care in the world and isn't respecting me at all. I know I can use treats to get her attention on me, but I really don't want to do that. I want her to walk with me out of respect. I tried treats with sweet little Gingerbread when he was younger and he started getting snappy with the treats, almost like I was annoying him.

I'm about to walk her and I'm going to try the backing up method and see if there's any response from her. I'm also probably going to try the harness linked below:

http://www.petco.com/product/113012...ferralID=d47eeaf0-9bc7-11e0-be22-001b2166becc


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Oh goodie, a hot pink sporn harness. Why not try a front-attach instead of gigging her under the armpits? "The leader should be in front" is, of course, pure bunkum if you're looking at it as a respect issue (loose leash walking is a skill, not a matter of submission). On the other hand, dogs who are way out in front are more likely to be pulling and likely to be more stimulated by the environment because you aren't up there to take care of things. I do frequently let my dogs walk in front of me, but then they've been taught how to keep the leash loose. My dogs can respect me from in front, behind or next to me.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Oh goodie, a hot pink sporn harness.


I don't appreciate your tone. The part that goes under her arms is all fleece. It actually looks way more comfortable than the easy walk harness, which I have tried and didn't really like. I like having her walk next to me so that I can handle things we encounter on walks (people, other dogs, etc.).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

luvntzus said:


> I don't appreciate your tone. The part that goes under her arms is all fleece. It actually looks way more comfortable than the easy walk harness, which I have tried and didn't really like. I like having her walk next to me so that I can handle things we encounter on walks (people, other dogs, etc.).


And see, that's a perfectly fine reason to have your dog walk next to you. The mechanics of the harness is exactly the same as a Sporn - just cuter and a little cheaper. I wouldn't likely use one, but there are worse things you can use. The thing is, equipment is only something to help until you actually teach the dog to keep the leash loose. There have been several posts here giving good advice on how you can train LLW. Equipment never takes the place of training.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Equipment never takes the place of training.


I agree, I'm just looking for a little help.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

luvntzus said:


> I agree, I'm just looking for a little help.


Well, you've gotten a lot of good suggestions. Have you looked at the "silky leash" links yet?


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Well, I bought Honey Bun the sporn mesh harness with the fleece that goes under her arms. It is USELESS. She really put her weight into pulling! After we got back from the walk I looked up reviews (doh! should have done that before buying the harness) and there were tons of rave reviews for the original sporn. There were very few reviews of the mesh one and they all said that the harness didn't work. I think the original one works because it's a thin cord that goes under their arms. That would cut into their skin and I can see why it would stop them from pulling, because it's so unpleasant. The one I have has a thick fleece strap that goes under the arms. So the mechanics of the harness are completely different. I won't use an original sporn on her.

Oh well, starting tomorrow I'm going to start using a combination of treats when she's by my side and backing up when she pulls. I'm going to keep the harness because it's cute and looks really comfortable.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

luvntzus said:


> Well, I bought Honey Bun the sporn mesh harness with the fleece that goes under her arms. It is USELESS. She really put her weight into pulling! After we got back from the walk I looked up reviews (doh! should have done that before buying the harness) and there were tons of rave reviews for the original sporn. There were very few reviews of the mesh one and they all said that the harness didn't work. I think the original one works because it's a thin cord that goes under their arms. That would cut into their skin and I can see why it would stop them from pulling, because it's so unpleasant. The one I have has a thick fleece strap that goes under the arms. So the mechanics of the harness are completely different. I won't use an original sporn on her.
> 
> Oh well, starting tomorrow I'm going to start using a combination of treats when she's by my side and backing up when she pulls. I'm going to keep the harness because it's cute and looks really comfortable.


The sporn harnesses I've seen are really thin cord under the arm pits. There is some padding, but you are right, if you are going to use something that works on the principle of discomfort, it can't be too cushy! Your plan sounds good. Have you looked at the "Silky Leash" stuff yet? It's really useful because it teaches the dog what to do if the leash gets tight. Very informative.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Generally, no, it does not. If you allow the dog to hit the end of the leash it might. That's not the idea. It is the same concept as changing directions (turning) except much more effective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For a while, Tag knew a formal heel but had no concept of LLW. We used choose to heel (works WONDERFULLY!), but never really taught that he can be out and checking things out as long as the leash remains slack. Either he was pulling, or he was heeling. My bad. It took awhile to fix.


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