# Miniature Australian Cattle Dog



## Simon (Jul 23, 2008)

Do any of you of a Breeder that raises them?I have never seen one but a lady was telling me she seen one.I have been watching for a breeder but have had no luck so far.I have seen a few regular Austrailian Cattle Dog and they are very smart and good dogs.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

There is no such thing as a Miniature ACD . So it's likely if you DO find a breeder it isn't going to be a very good one. With dogs that have been miniaturized for fad purposes the idea usually entails breeding a lot of runts together which in turn can lead to a multitude of health risks. If you are looking for a small breed PLEASE take a look at the dogs that are already small in nature.

What the lady saw was probably a mix, a different breed, or just a ACD on the smaller size.


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## Simon (Jul 23, 2008)

Dakota Spirit said:


> There is no such thing as a Miniature ACD . So it's likely if you DO find a breeder it isn't going to be a very good one. With dogs that have been miniaturized for fad purposes the idea usually entails breeding a lot of runts together which in turn can lead to a multitude of health risks. If you are looking for a small breed PLEASE take a look at the dogs that are already small in nature.
> 
> What the lady saw was probably a mix, a different breed, or just a ACD on the smaller size.


Thanks I have never seen one a lady was telling me about one.That why I was checking on that.Maybe it was just a small one which sometimes happens.I have Corgi's and live in a small town. That ends that I guess.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Agree with DS - there's no such thing. 

ACDs are, at least down here in TX, still very much a working breed, and it's not unusual to find dogs at the smaller end of the spectrum, especially in shelters.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I was just going to say we often get in ACDs in the shelter. Some are probably no more than 25-30 lbs.


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## Tsukifox (Mar 12, 2011)

I would like to say there are mini australian cattle dogs as i do own one. i also know of two farms that breed them.


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## Deeken (Feb 14, 2011)

Tsukifox said:


> I would like to say there are mini australian cattle dogs as i do own one. i also know of two farms that breed them.


There is no separate breed of miniature Australian Cattle dogs. There are smaller dogs as they are still very much bred to work in some areas. Anyone breeding and advertising Miniature cattle dogs is a BYB capitalizing on the miniature fad. As stated above, many of the "mini" breeds are the result of runts being bred to runts and because runts can have serious health issues, this can lead to serious health issues in the puppies being bred. Also, you are more likely to get health issues due to lack of health testing and consideration in choosing parents. If you want a small Australian Cattle dog, look for a breeder that breeds lines with smaller dogs or pick a puppy from a reputable breeder that looks like its going to end up on the smaller end of the standard.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

I've met a fox terrier/ACD that looks like a mini ACD....


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

No there is no such thing as a mini cattle dog & please coming from someone who owns & truly loves this breed I beg you not to buy into this malarkey.

I don't even like breeders that breed smaller size cattle dogs because I believe they actually need to be on the larger side of the breed standard for them to be able to herd cattle the right way. If you really want a cattle dog I suggest rescue, they have lots of good dogs in the rescues because many folks get them without doing their research & they end up in rescue. Jo came from rescue & we love her dearly, she is a great dog.

Whatever you do, just please research the breed first as they are high maint & can be hard to live with.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Tsukifox said:


> I would like to say there are mini australian cattle dogs as i do own one. i also know of two farms that breed them.


You are going to take this as harsh.... I am trying not to be... But I have been very very involved with ACD's for many years now. 

There is NO SUCH THING AS A Mini ACD!!!!! What you have is a mixed breed, sold to you as some sort of special breed by an unscrupulous and unethical breeder. You likely paid a premium for this rare and "special" breed. 
Please tell me you did not get the dog from the "cowgirls".......

The minimum height for Bitches in the breed standard is 17". No weight. But in order to have proper build, bone, and muscle, you are going to have at minimum a bitch that goes 35 pounds give or take a pound or two. 

Anything smaller than that, you have a dog with a serious fault or a mix. 

That is all there is to it.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Johnny bandit I know exactly who you are talking about, back when I was looking for a pup before I found rescue I stumbled soon their sight by accident under the assumption that it was a legit breeder, I left as quick as my browser could needless to say.

PLEASE do NOT buy from these terrible people, I DO NOT want to see my breed go down the toilet like so many other breeds have!!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Simon said:


> Do any of you of a Breeder that raises them?I have never seen one but a lady was telling me she seen one.I have been watching for a breeder but have had no luck so far.I have seen a few regular Austrailian Cattle Dog and they are very smart and good dogs.


A lot of people confuse Australian shepherds and Australian cattle dogs. (I once drove across the state to pick up an AS from another breed rescuer that turned out to be what looked like purebred ACD). There is a breed currently called a miniature Australian shepherd (but will be called something else when they are accepted by AKC. Not the same breed.)


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## the_mighty_khan (Nov 10, 2009)

I once met someone who had what they claimed was a Mini ACD. It had the coloration of an ACD, but looked more rat terrierish in the face. When I pointed this out, the woman got pissed and said it was purebred and she paid like $800 for it from a breeder. I told her that I had a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if she was interested. She did not take kindly to that and went off in a huff.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Haha that's funny khan. I have met a few mini ACD's or so they are called & I'm shocked when the owners get pissed & they insist that its is a pure bred & such, that is when I politely show them Izze either a pic or as I happened to be at a PETsMART at the time, her in person. She is a very pretty dog so I say as I show her off that she is what an ACD is supposed to look like.

As for being mistakes for Aussies, only someone who doesn't know the breed would say that imo. I can tell right away if the dog is pure bred or if a dog has cattle dog in them. They just have an unmistakable look to them.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

the_mighty_khan said:


> I once met someone who had what they claimed was a Mini ACD. It had the coloration of an ACD, but looked more rat terrierish in the face. When I pointed this out, the woman got pissed and said it was purebred and she paid like $800 for it from a breeder. I told her that I had a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if she was interested. She did not take kindly to that and went off in a huff.


I went and looked at that "Cowgirls" website (never having heard of a mini-ACD) and most of them had fine, rat terrier-like heads. (Noticed they also had a rat terrier)



dogdragoness said:


> Haha that's funny khan. I have met a few mini ACD's or so they are called & I'm shocked when the owners get pissed & they insist that its is a pure bred & such, that is when I politely show them Izze either a pic or as I happened to be at a PETsMART at the time, her in person. She is a very pretty dog so I say as I show her off that she is what an ACD is supposed to look like.
> 
> As for being mistakes for Aussies, only someone who doesn't know the breed would say that imo. I can tell right away if the dog is pure bred or if a dog has cattle dog in them. They just have an unmistakable look to them.


Izzy actually (from her picture) looks like she might have a bit of BC in her. Of course only someone who doesn't know the breed would not know the difference between an AS and an ACD. You'd be surprised how many of those people there are out there. Almost every ACD in our local shelter used to be identified as an Australian Shepherd mix. I haven't been there in a while so don't know if they still do.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

That pic came out kind of dark lol bit she is not a BC I assure you, she just has a very prounced blazed face which is not commonly seen in acd's anymore (most have the plain faces) that's what makes her more beautiful. The pic came out darker then I wanted too (izze is the one on the bottom)


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

the_mighty_khan said:


> I once met someone who had what they claimed was a Mini ACD. It had the coloration of an ACD, but looked more rat terrierish in the face. When I pointed this out, the woman got pissed and said it was purebred and she paid like $800 for it from a breeder.


Sounds exactly like Sydney, who is MOST CERTAINLY a mixed breed dog. Too bad that woman was so ill-informed.

EDIT: Also, it seems really odd to me that people would want to miniaturize this breed. I mean, they're already smallish, at least to me. My roommate's slightly oversized beagle (around 35 pounds) was about the same size as my neighbor's ACD.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

There is one person I know that has three "Miniature ACDs" as she calls them. Two do look like they are purebred, just small. The other one is black and looks like it is crossed with a Sheltie or something. She does Agility with them and they are very fast and good at it. I have seen several ads for them around here


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

kafkabeetle said:


> EDIT: Also, it seems really odd to me that people would want to miniaturize this breed.


Yea, they're just about the perfect size IMO. 

Are some of the colors of those minis a bit atypical? I don't know enough about ACDs to know, but are there some black and white puppies on there, or does their color change as they mature?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Yea, they're just about the perfect size IMO.
> 
> Are some of the colors of those minis a bit atypical? I don't know enough about ACDs to know, but are there some black and white puppies on there, or does their color change as they mature?


They are born white with either black or red markings where they will have markings as adults. For example, ears, masks, body spots, etc. 
But..... They start coloring in pretty quickly. 
Black dogs, white dogs, chocolate dogs, dogs with saddles, etc are all color faults. 
Color is important in ACDs. It is not cosmetic. Blue or red does not matter. You do not want a dog that is TOO light. And white is worse! Ever been out in the woods with a white dog on a night with a moon? It dang near glows. It will freak the stock out. Conversely, A black dog will not work as well in a hot climate. (dark dogs are a non issue in cold climates and the standard does not count against them as long as they are not black. 


I think my dog is dang near perfect for a blue. But darker or lighter is fine as well. 

Just breeding smallish ACDs will not turn them into minis. Something else has to be bred in to keep them small.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I personally have never heard of a mini ACD, but I HAVE seen some pretty small heelers. Looks don't always mean anything though. My dog, Charlotte, is a pitbull/ACD mix, but unless you have a really good eye, you wouldn't be able to tell at first glimpse she's mixed with ACD. She looks mostly like a pitbull, but is the size of an ACD and has the slight facial and body structure of an ACD. Her personality however is big time cattle dog, which can sometimes be a dangerous combination.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yep & they will lose their original form of function as stock dogs imo. I really hope the op does not buy a dog, thus encouraging this kind of bull sh**t.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

BTW.....

Merlin at five days old....









Merlin as a fully mature Adult Male.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

Merlin gives me chills, he's so gorgeous. You should put up pics more often. Especially some action shots.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

waterbaby said:


> Merlin gives me chills, he's so gorgeous. You should put up pics more often. Especially some action shots.


Thank you.... He is quite the fella.... A Sport Model if there ever was one....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They are born white with either black or red markings where they will have markings as adults. For example, ears, masks, body spots, etc.
> But..... They start coloring in pretty quickly.


Ah, I was wondering if it was something like that. Thanks, and thanks for posting the pictures. Very cool!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They are born white with either black or red markings where they will have markings as adults. For example, ears, masks, body spots, etc.
> But..... They start coloring in pretty quickly.
> Black dogs, white dogs, chocolate dogs, dogs with saddles, etc are all color faults.
> Color is important in ACDs. It is not cosmetic. Blue or red does not matter. You do not want a dog that is TOO light. And white is worse! Ever been out in the woods with a white dog on a night with a moon? It dang near glows. It will freak the stock out. Conversely, A black dog will not work as well in a hot climate. (dark dogs are a non issue in cold climates and the standard does not count against them as long as they are not black.
> ...


I suspect those dogs are Rat terrier mixes. (their heads look like it) but it is, of course, possible to selectively breed for smaller size. It's happened in many breeds. But, a lot of people do take short cuts. ("Miniature Australian Shepherds" actually came from smaller - almost toy sized dogs and are not "bred down Australian Shepherds. But what about poodles? What about Pomeranians (who were originally a smallish spitz dog around 30 lbs.)? As to stock freaking out at white dogs? I suppose it is odd that in LGD, white is the most common color. And, in West Texas (which is hotter n hell) BCs are still the most popular stock dog of choice. And most are predominately black (and shock) white. They do favor slick coated dogs though.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I suspect those dogs are Rat terrier mixes. (their heads look like it) but it is, of course, possible to selectively breed for smaller size. It's happened in many breeds. But, a lot of people do take short cuts. ("Miniature Australian Shepherds" actually came from smaller - almost toy sized dogs and are not "bred down Australian Shepherds. But what about poodles? What about Pomeranians (who were originally a smallish spitz dog around 30 lbs.)? As to stock freaking out at white dogs? I suppose it is odd that in LGD, white is the most common color. And, in West Texas (which is hotter n hell) BCs are still the most popular stock dog of choice. And most are predominately black (and shock) white. They do favor slick coated dogs though.


If you just took the smallest individuals from normal sized ACD's, and kept breeding the small dogs and culling the rest, you might eventually miniaturize the line. But.... you would throw normal sized dogs at times. The genes would still be there. Most of the breeds that have varying sizes, either had huge size variance to start with in the breed or other breeds were mixed in. For example.... Schnauzers.... The standard was the original. Affenpinscher was used in the development of the mini and most likely mastiffs were used in the giants. 

Yes LGDs are mostly white. Presumably to blend in with the stock. But the role of an LGD and a herding dog are different. LGD's become part of the herd. But... Herding dogs approach like a predator. 

I am not saying they don't use black dogs. Or black dogs cannot work. They do and they can. But a blue or red dog is going to work longer if everything else is equal. They trial a ton of BC's here in Florida. But the dogs suffer on hot days.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

But what if you're a hobbit and have very small cattle? Huh? You'd never be able to handle a full-sized ACD...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Interesting. The cow girls just happen to have a Rat Terrier pictured with their dogs.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Interesting. The cow girls just happen to have a Rat Terrier pictured with their dogs.


Yes, I noticed that. Which is probably what made me notice how many of the dogs have the same head shape.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Yes, I noticed that. Which is probably what made me notice how many of the dogs have the same head shape.


I've been clicking around and I cannot find any info on her sires and bitches. The only thing is the puppies page and what parents they came from, but no solid "These are our males, these are our females." so I don't doubt that Rattie played in somewhere. I'm going to make a point to NOT read things, but I saw some nice bragging about puppies being smaller than coke cans and how these puppies will stay mostly white! Also, the dogs I can see that they breed are NOT good looking ACDs at all. :\

On their puppies page though they have a large rant about how their dogs are purebreds. And exit the page for sanity!


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## Kodiak (Mar 14, 2011)

a couple almost had the mini bully look to them...

ive seen the results of a BYB of "mini" ACDs..the dogs were having hip problems at two, aggressive and nippy...really kinda ugly too IMHO


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Kodiak said:


> a couple almost had the mini bully look to them...
> 
> ive seen the results of a BYB of "mini" ACDs..the dogs were having hip problems at two, aggressive and nippy...really kinda ugly too IMHO


With all the ppl showing their pics of their adds I tried to show mine but I couldn't get mine to upload . The fact that these cowgirls have no representable pics of their breeding stock raises a red flag for me, that & a CKC reg is another. 

I'd like to see those runts try to herd stubborn stock, I doubt they can, they say that are from working stock but talk is cheap . Another flag is they dont have tails.


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## Kodiak (Mar 14, 2011)

some of them look so broad i dont think theyd even make a jogging partner....

around here there are a lot of people breeding pocket pits...its so sad that people are making these animals smaller and their temperments are not important...aggressive-who cares its small...their heads are screwed and gives a bad name to a lot of breeders


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yep & its publicity the acd doesn't need imo, there are enough ij shelters all ready without adding these freaks to the mix. Bit unfortunately ppl will buy them cuz they are cute .


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## 3twest (Feb 27, 2013)

I have seen Miniature Australian Cattle Dogs. They don't have a breed registration, but most miniature breeds start out that way. The Mini ACDs that I saw came from a breeder in Missouri, that have breed ACDs for several years and have breed them for smaller size but has maintained the breed character. She has developed several of her own lines of them. She has them registered with the CKC as Australian Cattle Dogs. I can't speak for all of the breeders that market them, but these were the work of a responsible breeder and their pedigrees all trace back to ACD ancestry. They are not the results of breeding runts, but a process of selecting for smaller genetics over several generations. Even so the difference in size is pretty subtle. If you would like to see pictures visit my facebook page Triple Tree West Photography.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

3twest said:


> I have seen Miniature Australian Cattle Dogs. They don't have a breed registration, but most miniature breeds start out that way. The Mini ACDs that I saw came from a breeder in Missouri, that have breed ACDs for several years and have breed them for smaller size but has maintained the breed character. She has developed several of her own lines of them. She has them registered with the CKC as Australian Cattle Dogs. I can't speak for all of the breeders that market them, but these were the work of a responsible breeder and their pedigrees all trace back to ACD ancestry. They are not the results of breeding runts, but a process of selecting for smaller genetics over several generations. Even so the difference in size is pretty subtle. If you would like to see pictures visit my facebook page Triple Tree West Photography.


Yep. I'm sure the there was a lot of controversy with the mini aussie back in the day when they were first becoming known, and now they are a registered breed with the AKC. I don't know enough about the mini ACD to say weather or not they are purebred, but they very well could be.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

3twest said:


> I have seen Miniature Australian Cattle Dogs. They don't have a breed registration, but most miniature breeds start out that way. The Mini ACDs that I saw came from a breeder in Missouri, that have breed ACDs for several years and have breed them for smaller size but has maintained the breed character. She has developed several of her own lines of them. She has them registered with the CKC as Australian Cattle Dogs. I can't speak for all of the breeders that market them, but these were the work of a responsible breeder and their pedigrees all trace back to ACD ancestry. They are not the results of breeding runts, but a process of selecting for smaller genetics over several generations. Even so the difference in size is pretty subtle. If you would like to see pictures visit my facebook page Triple Tree West Photography.


Yea they have been all over the southern Midwest...... 

The are NOT real ACDs..... The CKC would register a cat as an ACD if you paid them...... 

The breeder you speak of is NOTORIOUS......

There is NO such thing as a responsible breeder of "mini" acds.... Simply attempting to acheive that goal in unethical......

End of story.....


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Yea they have been all over the southern Midwest......
> 
> The are NOT real ACDs..... The CKC would register a cat as an ACD if you paid them......
> 
> ...


Interesting, could you elaborate a bit more about why? Is that because the smaller dogs can't work the stock properly? I thought the dwarfism in corgis was deliberately bred in to help the dogs avoid kicks from the cattle? Is it just the working constrictions or are there structural issues with miniaturization? What if they were simply pets? Just wondering, I know absolutely nothing about ACDs or working herders in general.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> Interesting, could you elaborate a bit more about why? Is that because the smaller dogs can't work the stock properly? I thought the dwarfism in corgis was deliberately bred in to help the dogs avoid kicks from the cattle? Is it just the working constrictions or are there structural issues with miniaturization? What if they were simply pets? Just wondering, I know absolutely nothing about ACDs or working herders in general.


Sure.....

First of all..... Breeding anything to just miniature "ize" it is a bad thing.... You would have to take a lot of short cuts regarding health temperament, etc.

2) Actually miniaturizing a breed from the genetics within a breed would take a lifetime.... Maybe longer.... And the dogs would still be capable of producing full sized dogs.

3) Given number two..... The breeders of these so called Miniature ACDs came up with them fairly quickly.... You CANNOT convince me that they did not mix something else in. Rat Terrier is a prime suspect. Rats are pretty good herders, have prick ears, etc..... And a LOT of ACD people either have Rats or JRTs...

4) ACDs are grouped in the herding group. But they are more of a Driving dog than a herding dog in the most pure form.... They were bred to pull wild rough cattle, bunch them up and move them over very long distances. ACDs to compete and do well in traditional herding trials. But they will always play second fiddle to BCs in this arena...

There is no realistic way to set up a trial to show what an ACD can do... The breed has no peer in the dog world for doing what they do.... There are some breeds in the U.S. that would give a good showing. Catahoulas would be one.... The Florida Curs and Arcadia Curs would be another. But there is no equal.....
Nothing about Miniaturization would lend ANY advantage to what ACDs do..... This breed did not come about by accident. The Cattle Stations of Australia had a real issue. They purpose bred dogs to solve that problem. What worked was bred. What did not work, did not get bred. The end result over years of trial and error and development... They got it right. A dog that can cover great distances, work cattle in extreme heat and frigid cold. Dogs that are tougher than a 1500 pound woods steer small enough to root through the scrub and push the cattle out, big enough and cover ground well enough to go long distances....

The ACD also had another role.... To be the cattle station and camp guardian. Very remote places. A serious dog was desired. As most strangers did not have good intentions. And then there are the dingos. (transfer that to the US and it becomes Coyotes) They needed.to dog that was a serious deterant to both dingos and rustlers. 

I will say it again.... Miniaturization only takes awy from that.... And adds nothing...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I will edit this.... The Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog.... The result of the same development except in a natural bob tail, is an equal... But the two breeds are essentially the same breed in two varieties. And ACDs will occasionally throw a natural bob pup....

When it all comes down to it. They are the same breed that took slightly different paths.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I can see how their purpose wouldn't be better served by a smaller dog.... Makes a lot of sense. 

As a pet owner (who will likely never need a working dog of any type) I wouldn't be bothered by the fact that they can't drive stock properly or if they were mixed. I do think its really irresponsible to go on a rant about the dogs purity of 'ACD' lineage if they're mixed though and I guess you would have to ask exactly how the breeding dogs are proven or chosen... Especially if they're not actually working to prove themselves I would wonder about health testing. I guess I don't see much of a problem with it for the pet market, but of course I'm sure anyone who really needed a working ACD would be smart enough to know that these dogs couldn't possibly do that work. I see what you're saying about the purpose and intention of the dog, that these dogs don't fulfill it. I don't think for me that automatically qualifies as unethical.... Might be grounds for a name change though.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

aiw said:


> Might be grounds for a name change though.


I think this is the point? You can't call these dogs Miniature Australian Cattle Dogs.

Call them Smallish Serious Dogs (assuming they keep the ACD temperment) if you want to make a new breed.

But to call them Mini ACDs I would say is unethical, because it's cashing in on the "mini" fad and the name of an existing breed to lend credibility.

ETA: I'm also puzzled by why someone would want to mini the ACD. From what I've heard, they're a specific type of dog for a specific type of person, and I can't see their personality being one for someone who just wants a small pet? Maybe I've got the wrong idea or I'm making to broad of a generalization.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> I can see how their purpose wouldn't be better served by a smaller dog.... Makes a lot of sense.
> 
> As a pet owner (who will likely never need a working dog of any type) I wouldn't be bothered by the fact that they can't drive stock properly or if they were mixed. I do think its really irresponsible to go on a rant about the dogs purity of 'ACD' lineage if they're mixed though and I guess you would have to ask exactly how the breeding dogs are proven or chosen... Especially if they're not actually working to prove themselves I would wonder about health testing. I guess I don't see much of a problem with it for the pet market, but of course I'm sure anyone who really needed a working ACD would be smart enough to know that these dogs couldn't possibly do that work. I see what you're saying about the purpose and intention of the dog, that these dogs don't fulfill it. I don't think for me that automatically qualifies as unethical.... Might be grounds for a name change though.



A smaller dog would not be capable of keeping up with the horses or work as far...A smaller dog does not have the physical strength move the cattle. A wild woods cow would just kill it an move on....

What I am saying..... Is people the breed down to this size, cut corners, lie, etc...

obviously there is a market for mini ACDs..... 

But where are they going to get their stock? Reputable breeders of ACDs? Nope...
Where are they going to get the dogs they cross in? Same thing...


Name a single advantage a mini ACD has, even it a pet home....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avery said:


> I think this is the point? You can't call these dogs Miniature Australian Cattle Dogs.
> 
> Call them Smallish Serious Dogs (assuming they keep the ACD temperment) if you want to make a new breed.
> 
> ...


The thing is.... Animal Husbandry 101.... You cannot change one thing without changing other things. It becomes something different...


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The thing is.... Animal Husbandry 101.... You cannot change one thing without changing other things. It becomes something different...


Exactly, which is why 1.) it shouldn't be attached to the ACD name and 2.) I can't understand the want to miniaturize it. :/ It's really just something I don't get.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> A smaller dog would not be capable of keeping up with the horses or work as far...A smaller dog does not have the physical strength move the cattle. A wild woods cow would just kill it an move on....
> 
> What I am saying..... Is people the breed down to this size, cut corners, lie, etc...
> 
> ...


I suppose the advantage would just be, the type of dog someone loves in a size they prefer. Which is reason enough for me, from a pet perspective... Although it is probably unusual for someone to want such a serious dog in such a small package, but to each their own I guess. I really don't know where they would get their stock, so yes I guess its probably not top-caliber. Must be a common problem for people breeding outside of the showing system. Don't know much about how someone would go about finding breeding-caliber dogs outside of the show system. 

Clearly though anyone serious about the work would never choose a mini but thats alright (IMO) thats why the standard is useful and won't disappear... It looks like this breeder is bad news, I'm still not sure about condemning the whole idea though.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

AIW..... In Theory..... I do not care if they produce a maller breed off of ACDs as long as they do it ethically.... Thing is.... They have not been around long enough for that to happen.

If you forget what a breed was bred for, you are done as a breeder....

Then ask yourself...... If I was caught in a round pen with a ticked off Santa Gertrudis would I want three corgi sized dogs with ACD attitude or one real ACD?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> I suppose the advantage would just be, the type of dog someone loves in a size they prefer. Which is reason enough for me, from a pet perspective... Although it is probably unusual for someone to want such a serious dog in such a small package, but to each their own I guess. I really don't know where they would get their stock, so yes I guess its probably not top-caliber. Must be a common problem for people breeding outside of the showing system. Don't know much about how someone would go about finding breeding-caliber dogs outside of the show system.
> 
> Clearly though anyone serious about the work would never choose a mini but thats alright (IMO) thats why the standard is useful and won't disappear... It looks like this breeder is bad news, I'm still not sure about condemning the whole idea though.


 But it is not the same dog.... And they did not get it to that size through ethical or sound means.



aiw said:


> I suppose the advantage would just be, the type of dog someone loves in a size they prefer.
> 
> 
> .


That is no advantage....


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

The size thing... from your description she must have mixed some other breeds to get that consistent size. I don't think thats inherently unethical, unless its producing unhealthy dogs (assuming the breeder is open about lineage... which this one clearly isnt). For the advantage, I think its probably a difference in our acceptable reasons for breeding. I think that 'because I like that temperament, look and type' is good enough reason assuming you're producing healthy dogs and they're placed in good homes. Most of choosing a pet is personal preference and since I don't plan on actually working the dog, working ability is not on my personal list of important traits. Everyone's is different which is why I find it so hard to say one vision of a great dog is better than another.



JohnnyBandit said:


> AIW..... In Theory..... I do not care if they produce a maller breed off of ACDs as long as they do it ethically.... Thing is.... They have not been around long enough for that to happen.
> 
> If you forget what a breed was bred for, you are done as a breeder....
> 
> Then ask yourself...... *If I was caught in a round pen with a ticked off Santa Gertrudis would I want three corgi sized dogs with ACD attitude or one real ACD?*


I shudder to think! Of course the pint sized dogs could do little to help me, being as inexperienced as I am with cattle I doubt even I could do much to help me. Luckily, living in the city I'm unlikely to round the corner from Bloor street into a round pen.... Safe.... for now.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Holy necrothread, Batman.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Thing is, the ACD seems to be a pretty serious dog personality type. How would that translate into a miniature, pet-only version? Many 'toy group' dogs are bred to be just companions, social, and sociable. Would they have to change the mini-ACD's personality as well? Is it really an ACD at all then?


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

The breeder in question that's mentioned here, The Cow Girls, also breeds ACDs and Corgis together, and calls them "cowboys". 

I still stand behind my original post about mini ACDs, in comparison to the mini Aussie, that was also looked down on in the beginning and is now a registered breed, but obviously she's not ethical.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> The size thing... from your description she must have mixed some other breeds to get that consistent size. I don't think thats inherently unethical, unless its producing unhealthy dogs (assuming the breeder is open about lineage... which this one clearly isnt). For the advantage, I think its probably a difference in our acceptable reasons for breeding. I think that 'because I like that temperament, look and type' is good enough reason assuming you're producing healthy dogs and they're placed in good homes. Most of choosing a pet is personal preference and since I don't plan on actually working the dog, working ability is not on my personal list of important traits. Everyone's is different which is why I find it so hard to say one vision of a great dog is better than another.
> 
> 
> I shudder to think! Of course the pint sized dogs could do little to help me, being as inexperienced as I am with cattle I doubt even I could do much to help me. Luckily, living in the city I'm unlikely to round the corner from Bloor street into a round pen.... Safe.... for now.


You go on and on about ethics and health. What you don't seem to get is..... Without even factoring in cutting corners to get the size, etc....

No ethical, responsible breeder of an established breed is going to sell dogs to someone that intends to cross them or create something outside of the standard.... It is NOT going to happen....

So anyone partaking in such a venture, is either:

A) Lying to the breeder, breaking agreements and written contracts, etc If that is not unethical, I do not know what is....

or 

B) Buying their breeding stock from puppy mills, out of newpapers, etc.

Additionally..... NONE of them will take a dog back from an owner that can no longer keep them...... That is something that responsible and ethical breeders do. (At least none that I have come across)

And non of them have any testing on their dogs...


So in addition to the fact that there is no advantage in miniaturizing an ACD....

Where are your ethics and health?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Galathiel said:


> Thing is, the ACD seems to be a pretty serious dog personality type. How would that translate into a miniature, pet-only version? Many 'toy group' dogs are bred to be just companions, social, and sociable. Would they have to change the mini-ACD's personality as well? Is it really an ACD at all then?


We at Mid Florida ACD Rescue used to try to re home them... Most often they come from the Cow Girls.

Some of them have ben "OK" and some have been a hot mess.....

We will not even take them now....


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

RCloud said:


> The breeder in question that's mentioned here, The Cow Girls, also breeds ACDs and Corgis together, and calls them "cowboys".
> 
> I still stand behind my original post about mini ACDs, in comparison to the mini Aussie, that was also looked down on in the beginning and is now a registered breed,


The MAS is now recognized as a separate breed from the Aussie so the comparison is the same, the ONLY reason they are acceptable now is because of the name change, if they had insisted on keepng their name choice they would have never been accepted. JB just stated that he didn't care if someone made a separate breed based off the ACD as long as they were honest about the new breed not being a Mini ACD.

There is nothing wrong with using Aussies to produce a smaller breed that looks like an Aussie.
There is nothing wrong with using ACDs to produce a smaller breed that looks like an ACD.
What IS wrong is claiming either of those new breeds as "Varieties" of the original without consent of the parent club, or using the name of the existing breed in the name of the new breed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I really don't like miniaturizing of existing breeds and promoting them as such. Call it something else, because unless the parent breed agrees AND there is nothing else crossed in, it's just not a miniature - whatever. 

Also, I had no idea Rats could herd, but should have given their history as utilitarian farm dogs. This makes me inexplicably happy. Now, if we could stop people trying to breed 'toy' RT (outside standard, not a recognized variety) so we can maintain some functionality....


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