# Very Dry Skin On Raw



## SportyDogz (Nov 16, 2008)

I have four large breed dogs on an all raw diet for about 3-4 months now. In the past I used to supplement them with raw soup bones and fatty chuck and fed a lot of leftover scraps including rice and veggies. Their main diet was kibble though. We must have been feeding Eukabuba for 15 years but I am not satisfied with the brand anymore. 
My dogs are all between 55-75 lbs and are very active. My wife and I own a small business where we deal with valuable antiques. Especially jewelrey, so we keep the dogs on the property (lot behind our store/side alley and inside the premesis) for security purposes. Our main gripe with kibble was the hard time we had keeping weight on the dogs and very pungent doggy odor which has now dissapearred. The dogs ate double the first 2 or 3 weeks they were on raw then that subsuded to half of what they were eating on kibble! They really do eat so little to maintain weight and just look so much better. 

So we're very satisfied with how they are doing on this diet on the whole but lately (past month) all the dogs have had problems with dry skin, and we were hoping more experienced raw feeders could help us out.
It's not really dandruff, but a duller coat and when we brush the fur we are finding scabs of dry skin in the brush! At first we thought they were scratching and causing the scabs themselves but none of the dogs ever scratch. Tonight I was going over their coats with a comb and pulled out one large dry skin scab and several smaller ones on one dog alone! 
Two of the dogs have small bald spots both on their chest/neck area. It doesn't appear that it is a wound or from fighting because there are no scabs or bloody areas, just a bald spot and areas of thinning fur. 

I am feeding them ground chuck 1-2x weekly for the fat. They also get chicken, eggs, turkey meat, some lamb meat/bones, and organ meat such as hearts, beef liver/kidney, gizzards. I try to vary the diet and not feed too much chicken, alternate it with other meats and organs. Obviously I'm doing something very wrong. Should I be giving vitamins or adding supplements? 
I tried using fish oil and believe it or not, made matters worse because their coats definitely became duller. I know that is supposed to be good for the coat but it didn't seem to agree with my dogs. I have ordered a bag of Wellness CORE to supplement them with just until I can figure out why their coats are so dull and dry, but I really do not want to continue with kibble long term. Any help is appreciated!

Jeff


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

SportyDogz said:


> It's not really dandruff, but a duller coat and when we brush the fur we are finding scabs of dry skin in the brush! At first we thought they were scratching and causing the scabs themselves but none of the dogs ever scratch. Tonight I was going over their coats with a comb and pulled out one large dry skin scab and several smaller ones on one dog alone!
> 
> Two of the dogs have small bald spots both on their chest/neck area. It doesn't appear that it is a wound or from fighting because there are no scabs or bloody areas, just a bald spot and areas of thinning fur.


This may be something other than dry skin.



> I am feeding them ground chuck 1-2x weekly for the fat. They also get chicken, eggs, turkey meat, some lamb meat/bones, and organ meat such as hearts, beef liver/kidney, gizzards. I try to vary the diet and not feed too much chicken, alternate it with other meats and organs. Obviously I'm doing something very wrong.


If you are feeding exactly what you listed here, you are doing nothing wrong. BTW: Heart is considered meat instead of organ for dietary uses. You can feed it just as any other meat. I often feed a meal of beef heart by itself. If you are feeding small amounts of it now, gradually increase the amounts until it's a full meal if you wish. This has nothing to do with the skin problem. I just threw that in at no extra charge.  Gizzards are the same. They are not organs.

Should I be giving vitamins or adding supplements? 

Normally the supplement for dry skin is fish oil. Maybe you didn't give enough before. The other "treatment" for dry skin is more fat in the diet. Try increasing lamb and beef heart.



> I have ordered a bag of Wellness CORE to supplement them with just until I can figure out why their coats are so dull and dry, but I really do not want to continue with kibble long term. Any help is appreciated!


If it were me, I'd continue the raw and try different tweaks until I found a good mix for my dogs. I don't see how you are going to find a fix by changing to kibble. I would also have a vet look at the dogs as this just sounds to me like something other than dry skin.

If you don't have any luck finding the problem and it's diet related, join the yahoo group rawfeeding ... there are over 11,000 members on that list and there are bound to be over 100 people who have solved your problem before. You will usually get good advice on how to solve dietary problems.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> Tonight I was going over their coats with a comb and pulled out one large dry skin scab and several smaller ones on one dog alone!
> Two of the dogs have small bald spots both on their chest/neck area. It doesn't appear that it is a wound or from fighting because there are no scabs or bloody areas, just a bald spot and areas of thinning fur.
> 
> I am feeding them ground chuck 1-2x weekly for the fat. They also get chicken, eggs, turkey meat, some lamb meat/bones, and organ meat such as hearts, beef liver/kidney, gizzards. I try to vary the diet and not feed too much chicken, alternate it with other meats and organs. Obviously I'm doing something very wrong. Should I be giving vitamins or adding supplements?



From the menu you posted, it appears that you have a very well planned out feeding plan, but I would have to guess there's a nutritional imbalance somewhere. Rotating meats is not necessarily the best way to achieve balance, especially if there is a pre existing imbalance that is not being addressed. I also don't believe it sounds like a health problem with the dogs since it is happening to more than one, however, if you make diet changes and the problem gets worse I'd definitely see a Vet.

That being said, if it were me, I'd be adding in chelated zinc to their feed. Are you feeding chicken as the staple of the diet? If so, there may be an Omega 3:6 imbalance as chicken skin is just so high in Omega 6. I didn't have much luck with fish oil either, because a few of the dogs didn't like it, and the others really didn't show much of an improvement in coat condition. Flax seed oil is much higher in Omega 3 & if there is a deficiency of that fatty acid, it should improve coat right away. But definitely add in those zinc capsules to the feed, becuase that is usually one of the first minerals to be lacking in homecooked/raw diets. Dogs have such a high requirement for it, especially active outdoor dogs.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

While you have made a switch to raw it might not be diet related. There could be something else going on causing the dry scaly skin. 

If it is diet related I'd try the fish oil again and fish and still more fat. Fatty acids are important for nice skin and coat. 

It also sounds somewhat like a zinc deficiency, I've only seen in a couple dogs they were fed chicken almost all the time. They got thin, dried coat, some scabs but more like circular type of spots that were soars so I'm not sure. I would feed more liver and meat higher in zinc. 

They could also be having a reaction to one or some of the foods they are eating. Although it'd be weird for all of them you never know. 

You should also take at least one to the vet to see if it is something else or if they have any ideas. Many vets don't make the best nutritionist but can actually be of help in situations like this.


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## SportyDogz (Nov 16, 2008)

Thank you to everyone for all the responses! Since everyone seemed to think the scaly could be some other kind of problem and not food related we took the dogs to the Vet this morning. They were due for shots anyway, so we made an earlier appointment because the scabs and dry skin just kept getting worse. This morning the oldest dog who is mixed with Rottie and is mostly black looked like it snowed on him! Full of dandruff like I have never seen before. 
The Vet did a skin scraping and took blood tests and thyroid tests to determine if there is a health problem or mites, but he told us that he doubted very much if it was mites. We should have all the results on Monday but for now the Vet is treating it like it's diet related and thinks it's suspicious how all the dogs have almost identical skin problems. So he doubts it's anything other than food but we did the tests to make sure. Everyone has to be bathed in medicated chlorahexaderm (sp?) shampoo and he gave us a cream to rub on the sore spots that will help if it's bacterial or a fungus. And antibiotics. The Vet said it didn't appear to be a hot spot. One thing that surprised me was when he used a fine tooth comb to thoroughly brush through all their coats and was picking up what he called scales of dead skin. I thought they were scabs but he said just dead skin. The coat was VERY dry, there was dandruff covering the teeth of the comb! I couldn't believe it. 
They have put on needed weight and look more bulked up, definitely have cleaner teeth and the stools are so firm and easy to pick up. The dogs have no more doggy odor either, and we were very happy with how they were doing on raw until all this dry skin began. 
I am feeding beef and lamb a total of 3x a week plus beef liver once or twice a week. I have always fed my dogs raw red meats and bones. Have always believed they need raw red meat in their diets so we try to not feed too much chicken. 
Needless to say we got a stern lecture from the Vet about feeding the dogs only raw meats. He was actually ok with giving it to them as long as we didn't make it the whole diet. 
I just started feeding the Wellness Core food tonight. They all love it but we'll see if it makes any difference in their coats. We also were given a multivitamin supplement the Vet sold which he said was high in B vitamins (I asked him about the zinc deficiency and he said that was also likely). 
This was a new Vet and so far I am happy with him, he was very knowledgable. So crossing my fingers that all the mediactions he gave us help. I'm sure the dogs have been miserable and itchy with their skin so scaly like that. 
Thanks again for the help!

P.S. ~ Vet thinks the most likely diagnosis is diet related seborrhea.
Oh, and I forgot that this whole trip cost us $775 for all the dogs! Not only did I make them sick but we paid for it through the nose, too


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SportyDogz said:


> Thank you to everyone for all the responses! Since everyone seemed to think the scaly could be some other kind of problem and not food related we took the dogs to the Vet this morning. They were due for shots anyway, so we made an earlier appointment because the scabs and dry skin just kept getting worse. This morning the oldest dog who is mixed with Rottie and is mostly black looked like it snowed on him! Full of dandruff like I have never seen before.
> The Vet did a skin scraping and took blood tests and thyroid tests to determine if there is a health problem or mites, but he told us that he doubted very much if it was mites. We should have all the results on Monday but for now the Vet is treating it like it's diet related and thinks it's suspicious how all the dogs have almost identical skin problems. So he doubts it's anything other than food but we did the tests to make sure. Everyone has to be bathed in medicated chlorahexaderm (sp?) shampoo and he gave us a cream to rub on the sore spots that will help if it's bacterial or a fungus. And antibiotics. The Vet said it didn't appear to be a hot spot. One thing that surprised me was when he used a fine tooth comb to thoroughly brush through all their coats and was picking up what he called scales of dead skin. I thought they were scabs but he said just dead skin. The coat was VERY dry, there was dandruff covering the teeth of the comb! I couldn't believe it.
> They have put on needed weight and look more bulked up, definitely have cleaner teeth and the stools are so firm and easy to pick up. The dogs have no more doggy odor either, and we were very happy with how they were doing on raw until all this dry skin began.
> I am feeding beef and lamb a total of 3x a week plus beef liver once or twice a week. I have always fed my dogs raw red meats and bones. Have always believed they need raw red meat in their diets so we try to not feed too much chicken.
> ...


IF it was me, I would get some good quality sardines in spring water and feed them a can each, a few times a week. I would also maybe up the fat a tad and add some safflower and or flax seed oil to the diet. Maybe a teaspoon a day.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Here is the way I look at the problem. There are hundreds of thousands of dogs on a raw diet. It MAY be possible that some of them MAY have a skin condition related to the diet but I doubt it. If you had one dog with a skin problem, I would say MAYBE it might be diet related. Not 4 dogs in the same house. There has to be something else going on here. There won't be 4 dogs in one house with dry skin caused by a raw diet, particularly as good a diet as you are feeding. There is no imbalance in the diet you are feeding. There is nothing missing. You feed a great variety and you feed great meats. Assuming you are feeding mostly meat, which I think you are and assuming you are feeding somewhere between 5% and 35% bone and somewhere between 5% and 20% organs, you are feeding pretty much a perfect diet. They only way you could do better is feed whole animals and thats just not practical for the greatest majority of people. 

I don't even think its allergy caused even environmental allergy. You just won't have 4 dogs allergic to the same thing. I'm guessing its some kind of chemical or other irritant in the environment that is coming in contact with skin.

If you think its a zinc deficiency (I don't). Zink is found in meats, fish, eggs, organs, and poultry, with best source is dark meats which is what you feed the most of.

I would ask the vet what nutrients you would find in kibble that you don't have in the diet you are feeding that would cause this problem. I don't think he will be able to answer you. He is grabbing at straws just as the rest of us but since he isn't as familiar with a raw diet, thats the place he is going.

It's common knowledge among raw feeders that once the vet knows you feed raw, every problem your dog has, no matter how minisucle or serious, he will invaribaly blame the problem on the diet. I've had it happen to me and most of the people I know who feed raw has had it happen to them. I told my vet one time, let's assume the dog eats kibble, now treat him as you would any other kibble fed dog.

In your previous post, you talked about how much healthier your dogs are on the raw diet. Something that makes them that healthy wouldn't cause a serious skin problem and make everything else so much better.



> we keep the dogs on the property (lot behind our store/side alley and inside the premesis) for security purposes.


I just noticed this on your original post. Of course I can't see this area but it sounds like it could be ripe with things that MIGHT cause skin problems. What about chemicals you would use on jewelry or cleaning chemicals for other things around your place of business? Maybe even motor oil or gas from the alley.

Another thought: Since fish oil makes the problem worse, I think the problem is somewhere besides diet because fish oil will moisten dry skin. Again this is an abnormality with all 4 of your dogs. 4 dogs with this situation tells me again that diet is not the problem.

Sorry, I'm rambling but throwing out thoughts as they come to my mind.


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## SportyDogz (Nov 16, 2008)

> Here is the way I look at the problem. There are hundreds of thousands of dogs on a raw diet. It MAY be possible that some of them MAY have a skin condition related to the diet but I doubt it. If you had one dog with a skin problem, I would say MAYBE it might be diet related. Not 4 dogs in the same house. There has to be something else going on here.



Well, the Vet is checking their thyroid function becuase he said that can caise skin and coat problems. They all had skin scrapings for mites and a blood panel that should show us if there's any health issues going on. They've all been on a completely raw diet for a few months and had perfect skin up until the weather turned colder. They spend a lot of time outside so I increased the fatty meats like ground chuck and started adding more eggs, probably giving an egg every other day for extra protein and vitamins. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they just didn't have enough fat? 
I don't think they got into anything, cars do not coem and go where the dogs are. Cars park in our store parking lot on the other side of the property, and it's not accessable from where the customers can get to. They would have to go into our locked side alley then walk back into the lot (which is mostly grass) and we have an indoor/outdoor kennel run for 3 of the dogs. The oldest dog stays inside with me all day and comes home with us at night since he is 9yrs and that's very old for a Rottie. So I don't know if it's likely they got into anything but it's always possible.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

SportyDogz said:


> and had perfect skin up until the weather turned colder. They spend a lot of time outside ...


Hmmmmm .... wonder if this could be weather related?



> so I increased the fatty meats like ground chuck and started adding more eggs, probably giving an egg every other day for extra protein and vitamins.


Wonder what would happen if you went back to their meals before you added the extra fat and extra eggs?



> The oldest dog stays inside with me all day and comes home with us at night since he is 9yrs and that's very old for a Rottie.


How is his skin? Does he have the same problem?


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## Beagle (Nov 27, 2008)

I feed my dog raw also. But it comes already made and frozen. I thaw it in the fridge and sometimes add some omega oil to it. I put in about 3/4 cup of water, so that she is eating a very watery stew.

The food is from Natures Variety:
Venison, Lamb Heart, Lamb Liver, Raw Ground Lamb Bone, Apples, Carrots, Pumpkinseeds, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseed, Chicken Eggs, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Salmon Oil, Olive Oil, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove

She loves it!!  and her coat is super shiny, soft and hydrated. She is 14.


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## SportyDogz (Nov 16, 2008)

I wanted to give an update of this situation. 
We got the blood test results a few days ago and everything came back normal on all the dogs. He said the diagnosis was definitely seborrhea then, so we need to keep up with the vitamins he gave us. I can see that their coats are 80% better already! Still dull but the flaky scales of dead skin went away within two days of adding in the kibble plus the vitamins and medicines. The Vet was fine with me giving the dogs ground chuck for the extra fats and said that would be very good for them but not as the sole diet. 
I have been giving them Wellness but I'm not too happy with it, but that's another post  
Thanks for the help!


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## 5 s corral (Dec 31, 2007)

glad they are doing better i have never had good luck with wellness 
jamie


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

If they were getting enough zinc in the raw diet [I have trouble getting enough into my dog's diet] they also could have been getting too much calcium which was affecting the zinc absorption. Remember 10% bone, 10% organ and 80% meat. No more bone and it can be less bone. Seriously doubt you are low on fat, without going lean on purpose the diet is going to be 50/50 fat/protein. I also have difficulty getting enough manganese and iodine into my dog's diet without supplements.


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