# Medicating Molly



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I am starting this both so I can keep track of things myself and so others can follow along. Maybe someone will find it useful, either now or in the future. I'll probably update it about once a week.

Molly's a 20 month old Border Collie who has had fear and reactivity issues since she was about 4-5 months old. We've had ups and downs along the way, with things improving and regressing, and tried a few different methods of coping without a ton of success in changing how she *feels*, as opposed to what she does. She's also gotten worse the past couple of months in some ways (reacting to stranger things, bigger issues with trigger stacking and recovering). 

So, we're on meds. She started 40mg of generic Prozac (I can't spell it) on Sunday. Today was her second dose. As of right now she's pretty sleepy and her appetite's down. I was warned that would happen and it's not too bad. She'll work for treats, she's happy and excited to go out and play ball. 

The plan for now is to get the meds onboard, increase her exercise (or at least make it more consistent) and start from scratch with the B-mod stuff. We'll see where we end up. Right now, I have no expectations, really. I certainly don't expect miracles - but I'd like to at least see her more comfortable/less squirrelly at home and I think that's achievable.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Good luck!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Positive thoughts for you and Molly.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

Great idea for a thread, as looking back on things can tend to leave you with a blurred and sometimes skewed perception of how things went. I will be following! Fingers crossed for positive results for Molly!


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

Good luck. I am sure your vet told you this. Unless dogs are different than people. But it will probably take a few weeks for it to truly be on her system. Hopefully it helps her and gives her some relief.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh yeah, it'll be a good 4-6 weeks before I expect to see anything, but right now tracking regular side-effects is pretty much my only real goal. And, well, not to lose things as they come. 

And thanks guys. I'm still stupid conflicted about this but it's something I need to try.


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## CrzyGIRL (Oct 12, 2015)

We have a dog on meds too, but not an SSRI like Prozac, which I'm familiar with in humans. It's a tricyclic, generic for Elavil. Like Prozac, it takes a while to build up. We have noticed improvements, but we still have bad days. Sometimes I don't see much difference, until we see someone who hasn't seen him for awhile, and they will comment that he seems more happy, calm, listens better, etc. Then when I think back, I realize he IS doing better.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Jumping over from the other thread... Good luck with this! You've always done right by this dog and it doesn't surprise me at all to see you continuing trying to help her. I am optimistic that you two will make progress.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Good luck! I've known a few dogs on Prozac. It can take a while to get the dose right, but the dogs I know are much happier for it.


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## KayaScout (Nov 13, 2015)

Good luck to you and Molly, I'll be following! If you don't mind me asking, to what degree and what "symptoms" does Molly show fear and reactivity? Molly's twin (my 10 month BC, Kaya) is also reactive on a fear base. Right now, since she is still young, we are working on behavior mod and some basic behavioral training. I don't know if it will work and I am very afraid that my dog will not be able to be out in a public place with people...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks, all. The support means the world to me, given how conflicted I *STILL* am about this on some levels. I'm not even sure why I'm so conflicted - absorbing some negative/mocking attitudes floating around out there, I guess. 

Kaya, Molly's reactivity as far as 'symptoms' go is typical reactivity stuff - growling, barking, lunging - or flat out FEAR where she'll hug the ground and shake. The real thing with her is that she's not only not improved, overall she's gotten worse. She was in classes from 7 months old and for quite a while able to be in group classes and doing off leash exercises, but toward the end she actually blew me off and rushed another dog. She's also had what will 'set her off' expand, a lot. She's gone from mostly reacting to other dogs and the occasional person to reacting more to people, and inanimate objects like plastic bags and, recently, freaking CAKE. Reflections in windows and doors. Weird noises. 

Some of that is cyclic - she got worse, so we had to pull her from classes, so she was exposed less, so she got worse, so - Etc.

The other big thing with her is total inconsistency and clear conflict in her reactions. She'll be barking, growling, and have her hackles up - but also play bow. She'll be fine with something one day and NOT okay with it another, or five minutes later (she's reacted to my HUSBAND that she lives with, if context is even a little bit wrong), and she has no real resilience. She doesn't recover from stress/triggers quickly or well so they just stack up. So she'll cope with one thing that's a little bit hard, maybe two, and then the third thing that's normally okay will make her blow up and she'll stay wary/afraid of that thing for the next week.

She's a good, sweet, dog but she has ISSUES. Big ones. 

That said, don't buy trouble. Teenage dogs often have some issues.


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## KayaScout (Nov 13, 2015)

Well, for what its worth, I know you're probably conflicted but if it will help her, its the way you should go. I know most people don't jump on board with meds but if they can improve your dog's quality of life, then why not. And if you can implement some other things while she is taking them, then maybe someday she can get off them completely.

It seems that Molly has some similar issues as Kaya, but to a more extreme degree. Kaya will growl, bark, and shake but then (depending on the situation) can snap out of it in 20 minutes or so. If she is distracted, like when she is with her trainer, her fear will subside quicker. She reacts to the weirdest stuff too - pull strings on the ceiling fan, yogurt cups even though she loves yogurt, and occasionally my boyfriend who she lives with if he's wearing a weird hat or something. She is fearful of people and will bark and growl at strangers, but her tail with be up and curled or wagging. I don't know, just very inconsistent.

Best of luck to you guys and, please, keep us all posted on her progress!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Please keep us updated. I'm rooting for you and Molly and really hope that her quality of life improves from here.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

I am interested in this thread as well. I know it's super helpful to implement more rules and structure on dogs that are anxious, fearful, reactive. Have you looked into introducing a place command? Do you work on BAT sort of thing? Like creating distance from other dogs when you see them out and about and then engaging her with something she enjoys OR even increasing her level of focus work at a good distance away from other dogs? 

What are your goals in terms of reactivity?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Will be following this thread. All the best!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Hector4 said:


> I am interested in this thread as well. I know it's super helpful to implement more rules and structure on dogs that are anxious, fearful, reactive. Have you looked into introducing a place command? Do you work on BAT sort of thing? Like creating distance from other dogs when you see them out and about and then engaging her with something she enjoys OR even increasing her level of focus work at a good distance away from other dogs?
> 
> What are your goals in terms of reactivity?


She does mat work and it was helpful before she started spiraling/getting worse. It was even useful in classes (it was most useful in classes). It's still useful at home. We've done BAT, LAT, and CAT - CAT not for very long, LAT made her noticeably much worse in that it would have her scanning the environment nonstop. BAT would be great, probably, if we had more dogs, but ultimately we don't have enough locations/dogs that we were able to get her to generalize. Ie: She'd be okay with some dogs in some locations but still over the top losing it if another dog appeared somewhere else. 

To be honest, I no longer care about her reactivity with other dogs. My only goal there is to achieve any sort of threshold or fuse at all, because as it stands now if she sees another dog she is gone. It doesn't matter if they're on the horizon, if she's noticed the dog is there she is over threshold and incapable of thinking or learning. My biggest goals are a dog who isn't spooking and alarm barking because there's a magazine on the ground outside, or because light shone funny in a particular window, or my husband is wearing a coat or - 

I just want the dog to be able to live life. I used to care about the dog thing and agility and reliability. I'm over that. I just want her to be able to be comfortable in life, even if that's only in a few locations. I'd like her to be able to RECOVER and to see something in the distance and know it's not going to eat her. 

She's never come anywhere NEAR biting, I'm not worried about that, but I have some pretty major concerns about the fact that she gets scared to the point of doing this and, if pushed beyond, ends up on the ground shaking and just plain terrified.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh and, yes, she's had a medical workup (as part of the Rx process, actually).

It's also worth mentioning that this is a puppy who was given to me by a breeder who said she was 'high stress' at 7 weeks old, and that *was sent home from a spay nearly unconscious* because she was so wigged out somewhere around 5 months old. She was normal until she was about 4 months old. After that, no. She got better for a while, but you know how some dogs get better at maturity? Yeah, no. She spiraled straight down.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Good luck with Molly. I'll be following


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

I didn't realize Molly's reactivity/fear has gotten so much worse lately. I'll be following closely as well, and I sincerely hope the medication will start things moving in the opposite direction.

You've gone through so much with her, and I can tell how much you care about her. I'll be cheering for you every step of the way on this journey and hope we get to see Molly simply be comfortable with her surroundings in the future!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I feel like in order to be clear in my own mind/records and so people get a reasonable idea of where we're starting I need to - well, be clear. 

She has gotten worse, for sure, but it's not... necessarily the picture that's being painted, either. Inside her comfort zone, Molly is more or less okay. She has nasty moments, she recovers poorly, she stresses easily, and that comfort zone is very easily breeched, but she isn't spending all day hiding under the bed or cowering in terror, either. I *hate* and worry about the trajectory she's been on, but. 

If she doesn't improve at all, her quality of life wouldn't be something I'd consider outright bad. Just very limited and not great/what I want for any dog I love.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Is it possible to get a video of some of her reactivity?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I didn't realise Molly's reactivity was this bad. I'm interested in the effect of medication + training, so I'll be following.

What's the training plan while she's on the medication?

I'd also love to see video, as a starting point to refer to later.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'll see if I can get a video but to be honest I can't even get anyone to video freaking agility runs with Kylie, which is as low pressure as the day is long so I'm not holding my breath about my husband videoing anything for me, pretty much ever. He sure as heck isn't handling the dog. She's not good with me but she's roughly 90% better than with him. 

The global plan is to up her exercise some, get a really predictable routine going and to basically start over with really basic things like CC/DS and see where we're at and adjust from there.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Count me among the people who didn't know she got that bad. I hope the meds will get her to be more comfortable in her own skin and environment.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

I hope things work out for Molly and she can have some peace. So when the breeder said she was 'high stress' at 7 weeks, was that an indicator that her temperament was going to be what it is now? I thought you *got *her for agility from the get-go, but was she initially going to be a pet and not a sport dog (not a hardcore, but you know what I mean).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

What her breeder (and she was one of an accidental oops litter for that breeder ) meant *I THOUGHT* by 'high stress' was high energy and high drive - she certainly wasn't fearful then, but she was very all over the place and playing tug and chasing the cats and just being a little hellion. 

I did get her as a pet with intention of doing agility with her. Agility doesn't matter _that_ much to me. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sad that hadn't worked out but it isn't the end of the world or my motivation in trying to deal with this.


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

Aww poor Molly. I also did not know how severe her issues are. I really hope the Prozac works for her. She deserves to feel comfortable and happy in her own skin.


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## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

Ill be following as it sounds like Molly and Nova are pretty alike. 
I would really like to see how the meds work out for you guys so I can decide if that is something I should look into for my girl. She isnt quite as bad but still has many issues....
Are there any good books on having a reactive dog that youve read?

I really hope it does work out so she can live much more calm and happy and just enjoy being a dog


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

As of today, which is day 3, the sleepiness/grogginess seems to have passed. Her appetite's still pretty iff, but frankly not enough to be a problem. She'll work for food, but she has no interest in eating food out of a bowl, even if it's something she otherwise loves. No big deal, she could stand to lose a good 5lbs right now :/ (my fault). 

Obviously as far as actual benefit I haven't seen anything, but I don't really expect to until we're close to or at the end of this first (40 day) bottle. I won't really be looking for much until then.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Glad she's more alert. How long are the appetite changes supposed to last?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Up to a week or two, I think. Not forever, and she's definitely still into her play and toys and is eating ENOUGH. She's just no longer raiding the trash and being pathetic every time someone else is trying to eat.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Also following along and hoping that this provides you both with a little relief. And kudos to you for sharing her story and your journey here, the good and the not so good.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, we're at 2 weeks on meds (at the start of the third week). I know that's too early to be marking changes as coming from the meds, but in order for me to keep track of what's going on, I'm updating anyway. 

She's no longer groggy during the day/from meds and hasn't been from about day 3. Her appetite is fine. 

HOWEVER, there are a couple of changes in the last week.

1-) She is not obsessed with finding/stealing food. We had a major trash, sink, counter surfing, begging, constantly searching the other dogs crates for food issue. That's gone. 

2-) She is sleeping through the night. That's something she has never done. She wasn't waking up to go out, but just being up and roaming the house, often in search of food but also poking me in the face to make me move Kylie, getting in and out of bed, and just generally waking up a bunch at night. That's not happening now. I tuck her in when I go to bed, she wakes up when I wake up in the morning.

I have seen NO CHANGE in her stamina or her energy levels or desire to play/work/train. If there's any change in reactivity I can't quantify it and haven't really tested it (or worked actively on it) - but at least right now she *seems* more relaxed in general. And that's good.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Good to hear, CptJack!

I am asking out of curiosity... Haven't you tried CAT with her in the past with great success? And are you thinking of revisiting that method down the line?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

We did have quite a bit of luck with CAT, but ultimately what it changed was her behavior. She stopped lunging and barking - and started lying down and shaking. She'd use the methods she taught to make it go away (it = scary thing) but was just as still clearly petrified. Her results were also pretty inconsistent based on individual dog AND tangled up/conflicted/nutty, which made it harder to get much of anywhere.

Mostly the shaking thing.

So - um. Yeah. We might get back to it. We might not. Depends. On a lot.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Just throwing thoughts into the wind, but have you tried control unleashed? Specifically the click for calm exercises?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes, yes I have. 

I have also tried LAT, BAT, seen a behaviorist, worked with a professional trainer, and read fired up, freaked out, and something (I forget the name) and a couple of other books.

Bottom line, she's terrified and lacks any resilience. She does not recover, and she trigger stacks like mad. She has reacted to CAKE and people she lives with because the context is wrong or she was at the end of her rope. She has handled dogs and motorcycles, then been startled by a plastic bag and been terrified of plastic bags for days on end because it was her last straw, even though they've never bugged her. Really.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Aww, good on you for pressing onward then. I really hope the meds help. At the end of the day, if she can be a happy dog even just in your house... That's not a bad life at all. Quite the opposite! But I know you've done and tried so much with her already and it isn't easy to let our goals go sometimes. Best of luck on all fronts!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

So glad you're seeing positive changes in Molly!



CptJack said:


> 1-) She is not obsessed with finding/stealing food. We had a major trash, sink, counter surfing, begging, constantly searching the other dogs crates for food issue. That's gone.
> 
> 2-) She is sleeping through the night. That's something she has never done. She wasn't waking up to go out, but just being up and roaming the house, often in search of food but also poking me in the face to make me move Kylie, getting in and out of bed, and just generally waking up a bunch at night. That's not happening now. I tuck her in when I go to bed, she wakes up when I wake up in the morning.


This ^^^ stood out to me. It's as though you're describing Tyson. I attributed his counter surfing and trash raiding to poor manners and generally being a dog. He also tends to wake up at night, although usually if I take him out it seems as though he really does need to go. I wonder if those issues could be related to his general anxiety / fearfulness.

Did you mention Molly's dose and weight? I skimmed back through the thread, but couldn't find it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> So glad you're seeing positive changes in Molly!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, those weren't things I associated with anxiety for her at all - just being a young and fairly high energy dog, but they've vanished completely lately. So... I'm betting there's *some* connection there, at least for her. She's still high energy and still young, just not... doing those specific (and annoying!) things anymore.

She weighs 40-42 (she bounces) pounces and is on 40mg/once a day.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, those weren't things I associated with anxiety for her at all - just being a young and fairly high energy dog, but they've vanished completely lately. So... I'm betting there's *some* connection there, at least for her. She's still high energy and still young, just not... doing those specific (and annoying!) things anymore.
> 
> She weighs 40-42 (she bounces) pounces and is on 40mg/once a day.


Interesting. Tyson is 42-43 and is on 20mg/day. I seem to recall another dog at his weight on a higher dosage, too. When we saw the VB, she said on a scale of 1 (meds not needed) to 3 (meds definitely needed) she'd put Tyson at a 1 1/2. So that could be the reason for the lower dose.

I wonder if he does have symptoms of anxiety I don't recognize as such, thus never mentioned to the VB so she didn't think his issues were as serious. In addition to the counter surfing and night time wake ups, he often just sits and barks...maybe at something, maybe at nothing, I don't know. I wouldn't mind seeing her for a follow up visit in the spring after we're able to do a little more work on CC and confidence building, but I don't think that will happen. Sorry for the Tyson tangent


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't mind at all. I suspect there are lots of little things when it's that kind of universal temperament issue/that generalized where you can't quit pinpoint what's personality and what's anxiety. I was definitely caught off guard by how much more generally polite she's been, and her barking at random things/nothing HAS fallen off, but I hadn't even thought of that until you mentioned Tyoson.

If I remember correctly Ryker is about the same size as both Tyson and Molly and also on 20mg. I remember when Molly first started that made me nervous, but I'm past that since, well, it seems to be working on *some* level, at least so far. 

I need to get her out and start doing behavioral modification type stuff with her again. I just need warm weather and to pluck up my courage and damns - as in I ran out of them to give for a bit there.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I need to get her out and start doing behavioral modification type stuff with her again. I just need warm weather and to pluck up my courage and damns - as in I ran out of them to give for a bit there.


Yes to getting out! We saw the VB at the end of September, then I pulled a muscle around my ribs a week or so later and was out - I could barely move for about 6 weeks (still bothers me). Then cold weather and early darkness happened, so we've had limited opportunities to get out and I'm not confident enough to take him to a pet store or classes yet. I figure I'll keep training for now and in the spring take him to the parks more regularly. We can re-evaluate in May or so.


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## pom (Jun 26, 2015)

How old was Molly when you had her spayed?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

pom said:


> How old was Molly when you had her spayed?


About 6 months.


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## KayaScout (Nov 13, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, those weren't things I associated with anxiety for her at all - just being a young and fairly high energy dog, but they've vanished completely lately. So... I'm betting there's *some* connection there, at least for her. She's still high energy and still young, just not... doing those specific (and annoying!) things anymore.
> 
> She weighs 40-42 (she bounces) pounces and is on 40mg/once a day.


Huh, it never occurred to me that those things could be related. I, like you and cookieface, just attributed those behaviors with a high energy puppy who doesn't really care about manners while at home. She counter surfs everyday, always. 50/50 about sleeping through the night, annoying as all get out when we have food. You'll have to keep us updated.

So happy to see a little more relaxation in Molly! I know you haven't seen any reactivity improvement yet but the small victories should be celebrated! Hopefully Molly is feeling good about being calmer


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## CorgiKarma (Feb 10, 2009)

Have you tried clomicalm? I know a few people that has worked for.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

CorgiKarma said:


> Have you tried clomicalm? I know a few people that has worked for.


I have not. It's a Tricyclic antidepressant - and something I might give a go if the SSRI class doesn't help.


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## CorgiKarma (Feb 10, 2009)

Good luck with her!


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Will/does Molly play with you? Are you familiar with the work of Jaak Panksepp and others which have shown that rough and tumble play releases large amounts of brain-derived neurotrophic factors (BDNFs), which are associated with new neuronal growth and brain plasticity?

What is Molly's clinical diagnosis? Would you say she has PTSD to some degree?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Her official dx is generalized anxiety disorder - personally, I fully believe there's PTSD happening, but that's not the official diagnosis. 

She will and does play with me and plays hard, but I haven't heard of Panksepp's work, but I will certainly check it out!


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't know Molly's history, but I do believe that millions of dogs in this country could be suffering from PTSD. It is estimated that at least 70% of humans have experienced a traumatic event in their lives and it is estimated of that 8% will go on to develop PTSD. We have no way of knowing how many dogs have suffered a traumatic event, but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that a similar percentage of dogs have experienced trauma in their lives, and of those it is quite likely that around 8% of those also develop PTSD. So with 75 million (or so) dogs in the US, up to 7 million could have PTSD to some degree.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, breakthrough of a more obvious sort. 

I already had the dremel out after doing Thud's nails and called Molly to me. She came to me, and then she sat there while I did her nails. No hiding, no running away, no near catatonia, no shaking, no nothing. Little bit of submissive grinning and she licked me when I was done but holy crap.

I SHOULD say though that we've upgraded to a real dremel recently (instead of the pedi-paws thing) so it's over much faster, but STILL.


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## Max and Me (Aug 19, 2011)

Good luck with Molly. Puddin' was on something when she was younger. I can't remember what it was. It worked great along with behavior modification and training.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

Happy to hear about her progress! Which dremel do you use?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parapluie said:


> Happy to hear about her progress! Which dremel do you use?


https://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=4000-2/30 This one!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

CptJack said:


> So, breakthrough of a more obvious sort.
> 
> I already had the dremel out after doing Thud's nails and called Molly to me. She came to me, and then she sat there while I did her nails. No hiding, no running away, no near catatonia, no shaking, no nothing. Little bit of submissive grinning and she licked me when I was done but holy crap.
> 
> I SHOULD say though that we've upgraded to a real dremel recently (instead of the pedi-paws thing) so it's over much faster, but STILL.


Wow this is pretty big progress.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Whoohoo! One step at a time!


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

CptJack said:


> So, breakthrough of a more obvious sort.
> 
> I already had the dremel out after doing Thud's nails and called Molly to me. She came to me, and then she sat there while I did her nails. No hiding, no running away, no near catatonia, no shaking, no nothing. Little bit of submissive grinning and she licked me when I was done but holy crap.
> 
> I SHOULD say though that we've upgraded to a real dremel recently (instead of the pedi-paws thing) so it's over much faster, but STILL.


That's great!


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## mandasannie (Oct 14, 2014)

How is Molly doing? My Ellie started fluoxetine just about a week ago so I am very interested in how Molly is doing now that she has been on it a while.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

mandasannie said:


> How is Molly doing? My Ellie started fluoxetine just about a week ago so I am very interested in how Molly is doing now that she has been on it a while.


She's doing well. I don't see any side -effects at all anymore.

We're about where we were with the last update. She's much more pleasant to live with in general and seems happier in general. Her rectivity's still all over the place, but she recovers better and is more willing to let things that aren't dogs go. 

Well worth it, IMO. Not a cure, but she's easier to work with and she's happier at home and in her daily life which is just. Huge.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

That IS huge! So happy to hear this. As with people, medication isn't necessarily a miracle cure, but if it improves quality of life without a ton of negative side-effects that's absolutely a win.


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## mandasannie (Oct 14, 2014)

I am glad Molly is happier at home, that is a big deal! Luckily we haven't noticed any side effects yet. All I am really looking for from the medicine is to make Ellie happier and easier to work with . If she would recover faster and stay in her brain a little more I think we could make progress with her behavioral training.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The biggest thing I've noticed about Molly at this stage is she doesn't trigger stack the way she used to. It used to be that if two or three things happened even in the same WEEK, much less same day or same outing, she'd lose her ability to cope. That's not such a big deal anymore. 

I need to do more behavioral modification with her again. We're starting back now, but I took my vet's advice and actually gave her a solid month to just be home and chill out while the meds got onboard. It seems to have really helped. I don't think she's ever going to be able to hack a sports setting, which makes me somewhat sad, but at least she can hack the park and hiking trails and the like again which is the most important part. She can DO STUFF and MOVE and play and be out having fun.

I'll probably not really reassess for another year in any real way. Just sort of... live and work with her meanwhile.


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## StormyPeak (Mar 9, 2016)

@CptJack,

I'm glad you are seeing good results for Molly with the Prozac. 

I adopted a very feral dog named Jaya who became that way due to being isolated in a back yard for all of her first 5 years of life - never had any interaction with humans except for her brutal owner, who never trained her and when she slipped her tied down/collar...and wouldn't come to him when he called her...he would chase after her with a board, or a section of chain, then when catching her, she was beaten and dragged back to her tied down area.

If you haven't read about her and wish to here's a link on how she came to me:
http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/428786-jayas-story.html


When I adopted Jaya, as I said she was for the most part, feral, and almost Everything was new to her and her degree of panic was almost unbelievable. I clicked on a light switch the first night I brought her home and the sound of that 'click' resulted in almost a 5 minutes panic attack where she bolted through the house trying to find a place to hide. Walls, ceilings, the sofa, the creak of my computer chair...light coming through a window she was afraid of just everything. The dog lived in a total state of terror when inside the house. And it's just hard to describe how ballistic her panic attacks were...plus...she was just flighty and nervous...she couldn't ever just be calm for more than 10 to 15 minutes...and that was only when I didn't move or make a sound.

Outside, while tied to a chain she would settle down pretty quick but new noises, such as air brakes from trucks in a near by Department of Transportation gravel yard would have her bolting to get away from the noise.

After working with her for 3 months...and not being able to do much with her because nothing was getting through to her due to all that terror she had, I finally talked to my vet and we put her on Prozac. The vet thought a 3 month plan would work...giving her a smaller dose, working up to a higher dose, then taking the dose back down towards the last two weeks. 

I have to say it worked wonders on Jaya. She was still reacting and afraid...but what I noticed were these things: 

*~She was slower to react*...still would panic but it wasn't instant and towards the end she more or less would look startled sometimes rather than let it bloom into a full flight through the house from what ever scared her.

*~Her panic attacks became less intense*...she still had them, but she wasn't totally losing her mind to the terror she felt...she seemed a bit more aware of where she wanted to go and hide...rather than darting about, spinning around and shaking hard in fear.

*~Her panic attacks didn't last as long*... towards the end of the treatment she went from episode that would last up to 10 minutes down to where some of her episodes of panic were over with inside 2 or 3 minutes. 

*~and lastly, the best thing* I was able to get through to her. Her brain calmed down enough that she could handle hearing my voice, and looking at my face and stopping and paying attention to what I was trying to do with her...like toss a treat her direction. She began to learn that being around me meant good things....something she just couldn't do before the Prozac took effect. 

She's been off the Prozac now for about 2 years and has kept improving as far as giving more and more of her trust. About 3 months after the Prozac treatment, she even began to wag her tail from time to time... a tail that had mostly been tucked up against herself...and her ears pointed forward most of the time, rather than pinned back with her head down. Jaya now comes when I call her, she remains laying down on the floor when I walk past her, and I can talk to her and move around and she doesn't come undone by it. I really doubt I would have got this far with her, without the aid of Prozac.

So, don't let any 'anti-meds' type try to tell you, that you are being 'lazy' in trying to teach your dog to handle bad situations, or that it's wrong to use meds to help a dog overcome emotional problems. I've learned you can't teach a dog anything unless that dog has some kind of inner peace and a calm brain...and if they have never experienced that state of mind...they need help..and the Prozac can help in a lot of cases. 

Again, I'm very happy to hear that Molly is making progress. 

Stormy


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Gosh, I totally forgot about this thread - I've been updating FB, mostly.

We had a period for a while where there wasn't really anything new to observe. This week's been a wee bit wild. We had our first totally relaxed walk - ever - on Monday. Since then we've been able to go back to using chained and fenced dogs for LAT with SUCCESS instead of it making her frantic and insane. Today, a dog sauntered out of its fence about 20 feet in front of us and while I got a whine and some hackles up, that was all. Then we promptly got the heck out of there, because do not want nor trust. She barked at a guy today - one single woof. That's the only reaction I've seen in days. 

Basically, it's like I suddenly have a dog capable of learning at the end of my leash instead of a frantic nut. I don't think she'll ever be totally 'okay', and she's always going to need space and management, but I feel like there's a dog there when we're out of familiar territory now, where as before there really wasn't. Things like LAT weren't possible at any distance because her brain would just be gone. Either frantic reaction or shut down in terror, but not any state capable of learning and listening and reacting. 

We've suddenly even got loose leash walking without any reminders or her losing it. She is able to sit and just - respond to me. I have a dog there to WORK WITH, you know? 

It's beautiful and it makes me want to cry.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

...basically, everything Stormy said matches what I'm saying. I totally missed that reply - I'm sorry!


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm so glad that the meds have brought a positive change in Molly! Ryker was on fluoxetine for about a year before we weaned him off with no side effects.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

jade5280 said:


> I'm so glad that the meds have brought a positive change in Molly! Ryker was on fluoxetine for about a year before we weaned him off with no side effects.


Yeah, she's due back at the vet in a couple of months to discuss. I suspect the vet's inclination is going to be to wean her off and mine is going to be 'holy crap, please god no, not yet', but that may obviously change based on how she's doing and continues to do. But her Rx was basically 4 months and then assess (and do blood work).


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Wow, that's some outstanding progress! Wonderful news and thanks for sharing!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Great thread CptJack, Glad Molly is showing positive signs... Look foward to learning how your journey goes, I do wonder if re learning responses by not doing the old responses will work with the help of medications. Always felt my one GSD was physically stuck in his pathway. all ended well with avoidance and isolation from triggers being in a rural setting to be able to not cause reactions long enough and far between to make new pathways of behavior. Then you see someone who lives in a city with nothing but high traffic areas that they can't get away from triggers.. So this is really cool to hear how Molly is doing..


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## StormyPeak (Mar 9, 2016)

Glad to hear things are still going well. 

Stormy


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

So happy for you and Molly!


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

This is awesome!!! So happy she's made so much progress already! Nice work


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

thanks, guys. 

Here, have a picture since it's handy.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I love her coat and her bright eyes! Did she lose some weight too, or am I just seeing things?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> I love her coat and her bright eyes! Did she lose some weight too, or am I just seeing things?


Some of it's probably angle - she can look heavier really easily and I don't know why - but she has lost 2 or 3 lbs - probably as the result of no longer being obsessed with trash/counter surfing and general, out out, scavenging. I credit the meds for that one, too. 

Today she went on a short, familiar walk with a chained dog along the route. So far this week that's meant look at the dog, sit, whine, look some more, look back to me for the treat, and then go. Today she glanced, saw the dog, looked to me for her treat and KEPT WALKING. Short walk, she's seen this dog a couple of times before, but - GOOD DOG.


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

Wow, that's absolutely amazing! I'm so happy for both of you!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm so happy to hear that there is progress with Molly! What a good girl.


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## CrystalGSD (Jun 27, 2014)

Yay! Congrats on the progress, I'm glad the medication is helping


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## shihtzu.lover (Dec 31, 2014)

what a georgeous dog! what breed is she? so pleased she has made wonderful progress!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

shihtzu.lover said:


> what a georgeous dog! what breed is she? so pleased she has made wonderful progress!


Thanks!

She's a BC or mostly BC, little bit of ACD. She's good girl. Mostly


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Did you go through a behaviorist or your vet? What was the procedure for deciding on meds?

(Asking cause Hank's being really really fear reactive lately and I will say it's crossing my mind)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Did you go through a behaviorist or your vet? What was the procedure for deciding on meds?
> 
> (Asking cause Hank's being really really fear reactive lately and I will say it's crossing my mind)


There's only one behaviorist in my state. I was working with a trainer though, who suggested meds after Molly got more overtly fearful and reactive even with worse. After that it was just going to the vet and, honestly, a short conversation about why I wanted them, ruling out a few physical things (generally - like through asking other questions and a general physical exam) and him writing the script and faxing it to our local pharmacy. It was actually fairly painless, and possibly not involved enough for some people, but. 

Godsend. So worth it. 

I will say if you end up going to a human pharmacy get the loyalty card or whatever. It costs us about 20.00 to sign up but knocked her med cost from 80+ dollars to five. For generics. Yeah, I don't know, either.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

How'd you find your trainer if you don't mind me asking?

My vet I think would prescribe meds for us but I'm not sure how to approach it. There are 0 behaviorists nearby and I don't see shelling out $400 for a long distance phone call type deal.

Thinking about doing some blood work and then go from there. We've had a big increase in general fearfulness and tendency to react by snapping lately. 

(Sorry for replying late!)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> How'd you find your trainer if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> My vet I think would prescribe meds for us but I'm not sure how to approach it. There are 0 behaviorists nearby and I don't see shelling out $400 for a long distance phone call type deal.
> 
> ...


It's fine!

My trainer is actually my agility trainer - she's got a background in that kind of stuff and worked with us for a while. I got lucky, but if she hadn't I probably would have gone through her to find someone. The dog world is small out here. 

General blood work and check is probably a good idea. Honestly, you might start with just calling your vet and seeing what they suggest about proceeding. Or scheduling an office visit and having a sit down talk while he's there and possibly demonstrating the behavior in question. My vet at least was really pretty thorough, and I'd also be willing to bet if they're not equipped for that kind of prescribing and checking, they'll refer you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, meds are onboard and I'm overdue for getting down to the nitty gritty of training with her. Well, I have been down to training her, but actually making a post on what I'm doing, what has worked and what hasn't, as well as some other stuff that might help other people. 

Okay, first of all: 

Gear.









The harness with the patches and the safety strap have been lifesavers. I tried a halti, a no-pull harness, a regular step in harness, and flat collar. None of them worked particular well for her. This get up does. It's a Julius k9 IDC harness, with custom patches that say 'STOP: No touch, no talk, no eyecontact'. Those patches have been lifesavers. They don't stop every idiot in the world, but most people respect them and give us (and her) space. That's really limited her negative experiences, and I cannot over emphasis the benefit of that. 

The other thing you can just see is the double ended strap connected from her collar to the end of the leash. That's nothing more than a safety net in case the leash clasp, the harness clasp, or the harness itself fails in some way. It's never happened, but it makes me feel more secure in having her out. 

Drive and meds: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpsbw3A1kOM - I can't embed, just click the link. 

There are people out there who think medication kills drive/energy. That may be true for some dogs, but it has not been the case with Molly. We had a few days/week where she was pretty distracted and sluggish, but otherwise I have noticed only one difference - and that difference is much better focus. There's been no change in her desire to play, how long she can play, or how hard she plays. There's been no falling off in her interest in running, in balls, in discs, or in playing around the house. 

Okay, wait, no, she has had slightly less FOOD motivation than she had before, but I suspect her food 'drive' was somewhat related to being a little OCD about seeking it out to start with. She will still take and work for treats, but less eagerly than toys or play.

Actual training:
Foundation skills, man. Basic, foundation, obedience skills - that crap I hate to train. 

I suspect that even if Molly hadn't been frantic enough to need meds and we had kept plugging along as we were, we wouldn't have gotten as far as we have today. Her foundation obedience skills weren't where they needed to be, and I needed at least a really, really rock solid leave it, good leash skills, and a stay/recall and wait. Some of it is cyclic - when she was ramped up/scared, she couldn't perform. OTOH, lunging on her leash, not listening, and not having control made everything harder. Also, frankly, I think pressure from pulling on the leash ramped her up more, which fed into her stress. 

Today, well, her leash walking looks like this - 98% of the time - and it's sustained for long periods of time.










I can tell her to leave anything, anywhere, and have her do it. That means if a situation is happening - like a kid on a bike or a cat running by, leave it prevents her desire to chase. It also interrupts her desire to stare at things that agitate her. Things like auto-sitting when I stop or cars pass just make walks and being out easier and tells her what TO do instead of her carrying on in her own little world. Wait, in particular, is great because it makes her pause and breathe. 

Stay and recall are just - safety issues. I can stop her at a distance and have her do it, I can recall her away from situations. These happen rarely since she's only really off leash in remote areas or controlled ones, but they up my confidence.

EMERGENCY UTURNS. OMG, you guys. This is the best thing ever. It's on cue, I cue it, we RUN the other direction and she's happy to do it. Best 'get out of a situation' thing ever, because she gets out and she does it with glee. 

Relaxation Protocol. This probably doesn't have a direct application in immediate situations, but it's definitely helped her not stayed dialed up to 10 all the way, all the time. We're only on about day three (of the protocol we've been doing it for a couple of months or so), but it's definitely helped her.

And, the somewhat controversial part of this post.

I dropped food rewards. I'm sure the issue was my mechanic, but they were more distraction than anything. Molly will take food automatically even if she's losing her crap, so they didn't help to gauge that. She doesn't really think about what she eats, she just swallows. My timing wasn't fantastic and she didn't care much. What has worked is TALKING TO THE DOG. That means sincere praise, that means happy chatting, it means babble about the time of day, what's for lunch, how pretty she looks, whatever. Talking to Molly keeps her engaged in a way food does not. So praise when she does well and just talk the rest of the time - in a casual, quiet, way - is working to keep her mentally with me - and given the way she lights up at praise is letting her know what's right/when she does well.

Where we are now is... not cured, and not okay, but better. A lot better than we were even a week ago. I have a dog now, that I didn't really have a month ago and even more than last week. She's working with me, she's interested, she's *TRYING* and she's finally starting to understand what I want and what the deal is. 

I expect more set-backs, but I am now confident that in another year I'm going to have a dog who, at least to casual observers, ACTS normal in most settings. It's going to be more controlled and managed, and we have a long way to go with 'increasing the difficulty' of this stuff and her world (comfort zone) is still pretty limited but it's expanding steadily. We're getting there. We're really, really getting there.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh and one more general progress update:

She no longer reacts to things out the windows, be it at home or in the car. I think she would if someone pounded on said windows, but for a dog who was once barking at cows when we were going 70 miles an hour down an interstate....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I impulsively took Molly to an agility practice today. We had *one* minor period of reactivity when two other dogs started playing roughly with each other, but it was brief and loud. Otherwise? Nada. No reactivity coming and going, nothing when *other* dogs came and went, nothing while other dogs ran courses or barked. Absolutely, totally, nothing. Furthermore, and my gold standard of 'is the dog relaxed?' She was doing not just down but rolling over. 

Holy Crap, ya'll.

It wasn't perfect or anything, there was still some stress, but. I might just have a dog before too long.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Wow, that's huge! Congrats on the progress and I hope it keeps on going!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Wow, that's huge! Congrats on the progress and I hope it keeps on going!


Thanks! I mean, we did no agility because I wasn't about to let her off leash, and we definitely maintained some distance but not crazy stupid amounts or anything. And she was there, and she did good and was mostly relaxed and happy. I'm so proud. 

It's also just a really great group of dog savvy people with dogs and activity to practice things with. Just had to get far enough over MY nerves to try. Apparently when she was in the car with my husband waiting on me while I ran Kylie she kind of lost is a little, but still.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

That's great news! So happy for both of you.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

This is amazing. I'm so glad you took the plunge and decided to try meds. They do have their place for certain situations like yours. I bet she's feeling a whole lot better, too! 

Now, is this something she will be on for life...or is it temporary to help assist in training & behavior modification only (focus on what she needs to do...like listen)...then wean her off it? Could she totally lose all her training if she doesn't stay on the meds? Might be something you just don't know until you try...like starting the meds to begin with? 

It's fascinating to me that one little pill can help make such a huge difference - with lots of hard work, too of course! But at least it's _possible_.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Some dogs come off, some are on them for life. I think most have a trial of coming off them at at some point, at least. I know some who have stayed off and some who have had to go back on, because they immediately fell apart again. Which one Molly will be, I just don't know yet. We're coming up on the point where we need to do blood work and renew the Rx, but I am nowhere close to ready to take her off them. It's been about 4 months. I'd like to see her on them for a good year, at least. 

But yeah, like starting them, you just don't know until you try. Some dogs you're able to form new associations and behaviors that stick and build confidence and break old negative associations. Some their brain chemistry just goes right back to help and overrides all that. Just like sometimes it works for dogs and sometimes it just disinhibits them and makes them *MORE* aggressive. 

It's been a little bit of a miracle for us, though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And okay, she's got her renewed RX and appointment for blood work so we're good for at least a while. (You reminded me to make that call - thank you!)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly went to another agility practice and was again good - really, really good. Oh, she wasn't perfect, and there was a tiny little bit of barking, but no actual reactivity. So, that's good. 

However, she's not so great when I switch her with Kylie so Kylie can run courses. She isn't being left alone - she's being left in the car with Michael - but being left by me results in her stressing out in a pretty big way. And by big way I mean she kind of loses her crap. Not barking, lunging, fear aggression stuff but pacing, whinging, refusing treats, panting/drooling, and all kinds of general 'NOT OKAY'. 

I am actively choosing not to worry about this right now. When she's with me, she's fine. Even in the chaotic environment with lots of dogs (and there were WAY more dogs today than before) she's not stressed - like laying down, playing, getting belly rubs, loose body language, the whole nine yards. She's totally okay if she's left alone in another setting - ie: home. Basically, I think I have become the source of security in those particular environments and HOPE that with more confidence she will be okay and if not - well, we'll deal with it. 

I also think if my husband understood how to engage her she'd be better, but that's a whole different rant.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

That's great! The slight and situational separation anxiety, not good... But not the worst it sounds like. I mean, if you've become the source of security that's a great thing, considering all things. I think it's wise to pick your battles and you and Molly have come so far with her reactivity! And like you said, once you get past that hump and invest in this issue, you and your husband can work together on it and it will likely be resolved too.


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

Wow, I can't believe the progress she's made!! I'm honestly so happy for you guys.

And, yeah, the situational separation anxiety kinda sucks but hopefully that will get better with time and some confidence building. Duke is the same way. He panics if I leave him when we're somewhere he deems high stress, like a training class, and pants, whines, can't focus on anything but looking for me (and I always leave him with someone he knows well and in an area where no other dogs are in sight). Everywhere else he's fine. He even gets excited when he thinks I'm going to leave and runs to his crate for a goodbye treat. I've kinda gotten burnt out working on Duke's reactivity lately but hearing Molly's progress makes me want to renew my efforts.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks, guys. I'm really pleased with how far she's come and the direction were going. 

We're meeting up with our trainer and her young dog Monday evening for some just hanging out. I don't really plan to do too much with her there or push 'meeting' (at all). We'll probably do some obedience work, honestly, but I'm looking forward to it and seeing how she does at a new location and with just *A* dog instead of bunches of them. Plus it's where agility trials are held, so there's some potential to be useful on that level, too.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

We did the meet up with agility trainer and her dog. We got to the park about the same time as a crowd of some bible school kids who, for whatever reason, ran laps (once normal, once on all fours) right past us and a baseball game just next door. 

We had a little bit of stressy behavior (grazing). Otherwise? Nada. She did commands, including roll overs, she played tug, she played a tiny little bit of fetch. At the end when we were hanging out talking she was even flopped completely over on her side a few feet away from this strange (admittedly chill) big dog. 

The question now becomes: How many positive experiences will it take ME to stop being a hyper-vigilant basket case?

Because at this point, the dog's pretty much fine. I, however, have to work up my nerve to do more with her, yet again. Hoping to start show 'n' goes and DOING agility at agility practices this fall. 

But I'm scared.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I'll be honest with you. I know your problems are different than mine, but having dealt with my share of dog problems with Sor I have found that I NEVER let my guard down. Sure, I test the waters and I put him in 'difficult' situations with the mindset of managing or training. I am ALWAYS hyper vigilant, though the basket case part will ease over time 

My advice is to go do things with your dog and be cautious, but not scared. Molly will tell you what she wants to do, and I'm sure you will listen.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Managing her and being aware is something that I expect to happen and needs to happen for safety. *Micro*managing her out of _my_ fear, however, isn't useful and runs pretty counter 'improve the dog's life' as a goal. 

Does that make sense?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

It does, and it's a 'you' thing not a 'her' thing. I know you know that already too. Sorry, not being helpful... I do know how you feel though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> It does, and it's a 'you' thing not a 'her' thing. I know you know that already too. Sorry, not being helpful... I do know how you feel though.


Yeah, it is definitely a me thing. Conditioned Emotional Responses, man, they apply to dogs and to people. At this point I'm socializing ME to having Molly around dogs, more than Molly to being around dogs, but hey.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, Molly went to the state park/lake with me today. It's a fairly popular recreation area - marinas, boat rentals, playgrounds, beach, lots of hiking trails, picnic area, lake frontage and docks and so on. 

Do you know what 'Ms. Reacts to a CAKE she just noticed' did? 

Nothing. 

She took treats from the ranger when we paid our parking fee. She walked nicely through and around people, including children. She shared hiking trails (on leash) with other people and dogs (though infrequently). She waited nicely and watched while some children were splashing around 'our spot' and waited on them to be finished (and to be released), at which point she splashed around and played fetch and swam (on a long line). She watched ducks. She PLAYED. 

SHE WAS A COMPLETELY NORMAL, HAPPY DOG. FOR HOURS. IN A MAD HOUSE.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

This dog has made me cry a lot. 

This time it's happy tears. Actually, there have been a lot of those lately. I'm enjoying it.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Great day sounds like. Great pictures, too.  Totally get the tears. I've shed a lot over/because of my GSD. Some of the things you went through with Thud remind me of us. I'm glad that you're having some real, positive results.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Galathiel said:


> Great day sounds like. Great pictures, too.  Totally get the tears. I've shed a lot over/because of my GSD. Some of the things you went through with Thud remind me of us. I'm glad that you're having some real, positive results.


Thud definitely made me cry, too, though with him it was more frustration tears than heartbreak. Molly made me so freaking sad there aren't any words for it. There was this awesomely amazing dog who was just... Her world was shrinking because of stuff in her head, and it was SAD. Thud, bless him, is many things but never really been anything but happy. I don't think he knows HOW to be anything but happy. I appreciate that more after Molly than I ever had before. 

And god, I'm glad I'm seeing good things too. Right now I don't seem to have a serious, or even minor, behavior issue in the lot. Just a lot of danged good dogs. It's a beautiful place to be.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

So happy for you (and Molly!) that she is doing well. She's been one of my favorite DF dogs and it's lovely to watch her grow and to get into a better place mentally so she can function. Congrats to you both. I'm sure Molly is just as happy and relieved as you are, even if at a simpler 'I'm having fun now!' level.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly is definitely a happier dog now that what she wanted to do from the start isn't a minefield for her. I am so stupid proud of this dog. 

And I have learned so, so much from her. I learn from them all but the learning curve with her was a little insane but so, so worth it.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

So happy for you and Molly. She has come so far!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> So happy for you and Molly. She has come so far!


Thanks! I dimly kind of wonder if I'm going to continue to be amazed every time I leave the house and things go well. Mostly I'm just. Happy.


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## StormyPeak (Mar 9, 2016)

Early on in this thread, I made a long post about how Prozac helped my feral dog Jaya calm down enough so that I could get through to her. I was able to take Jaya off the meds after 3 months and haven't had a problem with her losing ground. 

I think she just needed a chance to 'learn' but her brain was so locked up behind the fear she couldn't even get started on it. But once she was able to, then one thing led to another, the meds were reduced then taken away, but by then she was literally capable of thinking differently - in a way she had no concept of doing before the meds calmed her brain down enough to let her experience stuff without fear overwhelming her.

I'm so glad that with your dog, you have seen such a huge success too with the meds. If you do wean her off of them, you might see a small amount of change - an adjustment period, since the dog is now dealing with the world without the help of meds. But hopefully, she will adjust and not get really bad -- then will also get back to the way she was behaving while on the meds. 

So don't panic if you wean her off meds and see a little difference...in a week or so, she might go back to to behaving just as if she was on meds. Jaya did that, but again, it was a minor change and after a short time she gained back that tiny bit of lost ground and also has improved since then.
Jaya is getting better all the time in allowing me to walk up to her and pet her...she doesn't cower now when I do it, nor avoid me as she use to at times. So that 3 months of medication was all it took to change her way of thinking for the long term. 

Love the photos of your dog...and again, I'm so glad to read that you and she made so much progress. I know a few people looked down on me for using meds like that on my dog, but they never had to deal with a dog with such issues. It was stressful on me and very stressful on the dog...and now neither of us are dealing with stress. Those kinds of meds can be a good thing : )

Stormy


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

StormyPeak said:


> Early on in this thread, I made a long post about how Prozac helped my feral dog Jaya calm down enough so that I could get through to her. I was able to take Jaya off the meds after 3 months and haven't had a problem with her losing ground.
> 
> I think she just needed a chance to 'learn' but her brain was so locked up behind the fear she couldn't even get started on it. But once she was able to, then one thing led to another, the meds were reduced then taken away, but by then she was literally capable of thinking differently - in a way she had no concept of doing before the meds calmed her brain down enough to let her experience stuff without fear overwhelming her.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I'm not really considering weaning off just yet, but it's something I will probably give a shot eventually. Knowing what to expect there is... something that I really need and find reassuring. 

As a more general update, today was kind of big and another breakthrough. My kids had their high school open house/fee payments/stuff and I had a meeting with a friend and her dogs immediately after. So Molly hung out, outside, on the high school campus for an hour and a half being good and calm with me while thongs of people and cars came and went and cheerleading practice happened a hundred or so yards away. 

Then she went to meet up with my friend and her dogs (Why she was at the high school; timing was tight). She was fine. She MET both dogs - actually sniffed and met, took a walk with us and them (individually) and even got released to get her jack pot reward of her frisbee a few times. 

I. I. 

Holy. Crap.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Actually, she also met my friend. Begged her for treats. Was *happy* and *comfortable* with her. I think she's the first person who doesn't live with me to really SEE and meet the dog I know. 

I could cry. More.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

CptJack said:


> Thanks for this. I'm not really considering weaning off just yet, but it's something I will probably give a shot eventually. Knowing what to expect there is... something that I really need and find reassuring.
> 
> As a more general update, today was kind of big and another breakthrough. My kids had their high school open house/fee payments/stuff and I had a meeting with a friend and her dogs immediately after. So Molly hung out, outside, on the high school campus for an hour and a half being good and calm with me while thongs of people and cars came and went and cheerleading practice happened a hundred or so yards away.
> 
> ...


That's so awesome! That is a feat even for those of us with "normal" dogs! What a great job you both have done!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Lillith said:


> That's so awesome! That is a feat even for those of us with "normal" dogs! What a great job you both have done!


I feel like she's finally turning into a really, really, nice dog and I think while a lot of it's meds and work maturity is finally helping us along, too.

That said, we're taking it slow. Really slow. She'd sniff the other dog, I'd call her away (happily) and jackpot her with either food or a frisbee toss AWAY from the other dog, and when she brought it back play some tug with her before carrying on with more obedience type skills or just continuing our meandering walk around the park with my friend and her dog. 

I've also learned to recognize that sometimes she's just alert barking out and about and just like at home I can say 'It's okay' and she'll let it go and move on. We did have SOME of that at the high school and by that I meant when someone walked up behind us while we were under a tree she gave one bark, got told it was okay and went back to not caring. 

She will STILL light up like fourth of july (ie: explosively) if another dog does something like charge at her, though. Not sure I consider that a problem.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Congrats again on all the progress. This thread makes me so happy and I secretly wish I can print it, make it a book, and share it with my reactive dog clients 



CptJack said:


> She will STILL light up like fourth of july (ie: explosively) if another dog does something like charge at her, though. Not sure I consider that a problem.


Soro never had the same problems as Molly but we are here as well. It's always the 'FRIENDLY!!!' dogs too. I also am not sure I consider it a problem anymore as rushing up is rude dog behavior. I sorta wish he actually reacts (barking and lunging) from a further distance to ward the other dog away but his bubble is small due to training. That does mean the dog is literally about to touch noses with him before he lunges, which puts everyone into fight zone and he's had a fair share of scuffles in this last year. Oh well. The other alternative is educating the public on not letting their dogs greet my leashed dog, which is never going to happen.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If you think it'd help people and want to print it out and hand it out, I don't have a problem with it. That said, might be impractical 

The rest: Yep. It's always the exuberant, bouncing, dragging their owner or off leash, REALLY REALLY HAPPY dogs. We get some pretty decent distance in those situations where we can see hyper-butt dog coming our way. I would LIKE her to have less forward response to it but we can't have everything and I don't exactly want a really happy golden bouncing on my head either, so meh. This, I can live with. Mostly we interact with really dog savvy/dog sports people. Not exclusively of course but at least most o our interactions are with people who have some freaking sense.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I am so so happy to hear you're making such great progress!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Heh. Met up with my friend for a rally practice that turned into an agility practice, albeit with hoops. There was a dog there she's never met (my friend's older dog), and people actually hanging OFF THE FENCE watching, and she was. Fine? Again? Mugged my friend for treats, performed some commands for her, played a bit of ball with her. 

No dog/dog interaction, but passed coming in and out of the area just fine. Her alert barking is down to literally ONE bark and it only happened twice. Otherwise, she was loose, wiggly, relaxed, and happy. 

Also tore the crap out of a paw pad, but. 

Guys. This dog's going to be able to hack even full out agility trials given some time and minimal management. Says the instructors in our life who have seen her lately. This stuff gives me CHILLS.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh and the answer for how long it would take me to start relaxing about her? About 3 months of awesome.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I only have a few pictures without the other dog's owner, but um. Guys?









She's not staring away from them, she's looking back at me out of frame. Other dogs' owner is just out of frame the opposite direction. 









She played disc with another dog off leash. And while she's race him for the catch, if he caught it she backed off and let him retrieve. He did the same for her. It was beautiful. 










And if you're on FB, you've seen pictures of her being really attentive and happy with someone who Is Not Me.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

This has lately become the thread I get giddy about reading updates from. Spectacular job Molly and CptJack!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> This has lately become the thread I get giddy about reading updates from. Spectacular job Molly and CptJack!


It's making me pretty giddy, too!

All of this was taking place maybe 100 yards and a fence from pee-wee football try-outs, even! And while she did bark a few times (at a scooter, a kid carrying football pads dressed in a jersey, a dog wandering by) it was never more than ONE bark. 

One. Single. Bark.

I love having dog friends, I just. Really, really do. Both here to celebrate things and in the real world where they let me borrow their dogs.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Really really awesome to read about all the work you have done with her and the success you are having!! So awesome!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

kadylady said:


> Really really awesome to read about all the work you have done with her and the success you are having!! So awesome!


I am so thrilled with this dog lately.

Our meet up tonight was great, again. We had some kids swarm and, yeah, when they came running over I had to back her off and create some distance and she barked a bit, but we were able to rejoin the group in seconds. No, no contact was allowed to happen but when the kid dashed right in front of her nose to get back to their parents? Jack. Pot. 

She's also now taking commands and working with my friend pretty well. Plus a few dogs at the park that wandered by and she was completely disinterested in. Lots of people and football practice was also a non-issue. 

I don't know. I'm not sure how much else there is to update about at this point, or there will be until something major happens. She's just. A really good dog. Who is impressing the heck out of my friend with her desire to work and energy level.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I've been away from the forum so this is like a complete turn around! Amazing! So happy for you guys!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Pomom said:


> I've been away from the forum so this is like a complete turn around! Amazing! So happy for you guys!


It is pretty freaking wild!


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

That is completely amazing! I'm so happy for you and for Molly!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Sandakat said:


> That is completely amazing! I'm so happy for you and for Molly!


Thank you! I'm thrilled to bits, too - every time we go in public, I'm astonished and over the moon. 

I realized yesterday, too, that at some point in this mess she stopped reacting to dogs on television. Yeah, I know, obviously that happened pretty early on but I'd actually forgotten it was a thing until we were watching TV together and a commercial came on that used to set her off pretty hard. God she's come a long way.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

We're thinking she might actually trial in January... 

Holy. Crap.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

CptJack said:


> We're thinking she might actually trial in January...
> 
> Holy. Crap.


That's so awesome! I know that you kind of put that hope away to help Molly just be a functioning dog.. but it is pretty amazing that you can even consider it a reality again! So glad that Molly has come so far.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> That's so awesome! I know that you kind of put that hope away to help Molly just be a functioning dog.. but it is pretty amazing that you can even consider it a reality again! So glad that Molly has come so far.


It's pretty remarkable. I'm honestly scared to death of the prospect at this point, but ... that's me and me needing confidence building and trust building. Given where the dog is now - Man, I don't know. She's basically fine. I really can't call 'will bark like crazy if another dog rushes into her face' an issue. But it's so, so strange.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

This is such an awesome and amazing thread. I'm so so so happy for you both. I'm curious, while this process has been going on, if you have been doing any specific training with her besides the things you have mentioned about exposure to various people, places, and dogs?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parapluie said:


> This is such an awesome and amazing thread. I'm so so so happy for you both. I'm curious, while this process has been going on, if you have been doing any specific training with her besides the things you have mentioned about exposure to various people, places, and dogs?


There's some more detailed information on page 5 about what I did to get her to the process of getting her to the point of basically being able to socialize her like a normal dog. The only other thing I'd add to that, to that point, is to say that I really believe giving her time off was hugely important. She is a very habitual, nearly OCD, dog. I noticed that she'd periodically seem to 'forget' to react once the meds were onboard, but any movement or word from me and she'd instantly start lunging and barking like it was what she believed she needed to do. It had become basically a behavioral chain - see trigger, react. Getting her away from her triggers for a solid 3 months (as much as possible while living life, and it's a lot) really helped weaken that, while the meds were handling her fear/emotional response. 

And, okay, thinking about it two more things that intertwine:

It's okay as a cue - ie: She'd bark around the house while we were avoiding her bigger triggers, I'd check it out, say 'it's okay' and then get on with life. Sometimes she'd come crawl into my lap for reassurance once she calmed down. I gave it to her. When we're out now, she occasionally gets spooky in a mild way, I say it's okay, she crawls into my lap or leans against my leg, I pet her and she's reassured and we move on. She's learned to trust that assessment. 

Now? We're not doing anything special. We go out, we work obedience and disc and impulse control and hang around other dogs and focus stuff, but it's pretty normal dog stuff. I call her out of situations with people and dogs FREQUENTLY to reward her, I jackpot her when she handles a situation well (like the kid running across her nose). And I talk to her,a lot. Constant feedback. "That's GREAT, you're a good girl, WOW!" type stuff. It's not distraction, I shut up while she does things and I let her observe but TELLING HER with words how she's doing and that I'm happy does more for this particular dog than food ever has. 

And with her, honestly, the real key, I guess, as I read all this, is engagement with me and relationship in general. She's engaged, she trusts me, and that bolsters her confidence in the world a LOT. It's just... taken a long time and some medical help to make that happen.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

Thank you! That definitely helps to paint the picture. Your progress is so inspiring and something I can only dream about at this point so it's really nice to hear more about how it all came together.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I did not mean this to happen. I don't know how this happened. There was just...suddenly bikes. In a photo. That I never noticed in reality. I'm a terrible dog owner. Flagellate away. 

But. 

Um.

THE DOG DIDN"T NOTICE EITHER.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

Yay Molly!! We have passed a few bikes recently while walking and Ellie is always bugged out but hasn't been barking at them. No idea how she would respond if she wasn't on-leash though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parapluie said:


> Yay Molly!! We have passed a few bikes recently while walking and Ellie is always bugged out but hasn't been barking at them. No idea how she would respond if she wasn't on-leash though.


More and more with Molly - if she's engaged with me and doing something, there could be a nuclear bomb go off under her nose and she wouldn't care. There *is* more of an issue if she's NOT though.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

CptJack said:


> More and more with Molly - if she's engaged with me and doing something, there could be a nuclear bomb go off under her nose and she wouldn't care. There *is* more of an issue if she's NOT though.


We have a hard time getting her attention almost always unless there is literally nothing else going on and she happens to be focused (even in the house she's bouncing off the walls, or if she happens to be more calm physically, she's distracted by any little noise or thing even if we don't know what it is). Her poor brain is going a mile a minute constantly.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parapluie said:


> We have a hard time getting her attention almost always unless there is literally nothing else going on and she happens to be focused (even in the house she's bouncing off the walls, or if she happens to be more calm physically, she's distracted by any little noise or thing even if we don't know what it is). Her poor brain is going a mile a minute constantly.


Yeah. That's the big change with Molly at her worst and now, after some medication and growing up. She focuses. Breed helps there, too, I'm sure.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. That's the big change with Molly at her worst and now, after some medication and growing up. She focuses. Breed helps there, too, I'm sure.


I'm so happy to hear she's doing so well. I've really been rooting for her (and following this thread religiously, obviously haha!)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My friend brought a new dog for Molly to see tonight. 

She *did* bark when she first spotted him. So we backed off, got a sit, walked in a big slow loop around him, played some tug, closed some distance and then took a walk with them beside each other. Took... 5 minutes? For her to stop caring. And by that I mean he was standing over her eating food and she did. Not. Care. 



















Also? 









She had a BLAST with Kwyn.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also let me say, Boden? The new dog? Not a low energy, perfectly polite dog. Nice dog, but not... sedate, if you know what I mean. Very, very different energy.

I NEVER thought I'd see the day she could do THIS.

Never, ever, ever.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, yeah. 

Agility practice tonight. Molly went. She was let off leash and did agility. Other dogs and people around. She was fine. Okay, her agility needs some work, but um. Yeah. She did the thing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgcet3uu1M

Hey guys.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Hey guys -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgcet3uu1M


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

That's pretty cool. I probably wouldn't believe you if you told me that dog had extreme fear issues not too long ago. She's so enthusiastic!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Lillith said:


> That's pretty cool. I probably wouldn't believe you if you told me that dog had extreme fear issues not too long ago. She's so enthusiastic!


It's pretty wild. She's turning into a bouncy, wiggly, INCREDIBLY confident dog these days. I LOVE IT SO MUCH.


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## Sandy.klo (Sep 4, 2016)

Good luck!
I'm not the kind of person that turns to meds immediately, but some doggies with chemical imbalances need it, and it can really help!
Our rescue has been on Prozac since before we got her, and her foster parents, who were just the best foster parents ever who I trust completely, said they felt it made a real difference! She has severe separation anxiety and panics to an alarming point, I was strictly informed to never leave her alone in a kennel, because she would hurt herself trying to escape... Anyway the medication absolutely does not suppress any of her personality, she is a happy healthy little silly dork. I've heard that it makes dogs more tired at first, but like I said, our baby had already been on the meds for a few months when we got her. If it does, I'm sure it subsides, at least for some, because our 3 year old has the energy and silliness of a young pup. I didn't know her before, but she has such an exuberant personality now, all fun and energy, that I am certain all the energy and personality bounces back! At least with her I know it did.
I have steered people away from SSRIs for the dog many times, but in cases like yours and mine where the situation indicates there may well be an imbalance present, I think it can do wonders. I hope you have as much success as our girl had!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Sandy.klo said:


> Good luck!
> I'm not the kind of person that turns to meds immediately, but some doggies with chemical imbalances need it, and it can really help!
> Our rescue has been on Prozac since before we got her, and her foster parents, who were just the best foster parents ever who I trust completely, said they felt it made a real difference! She has severe separation anxiety and panics to an alarming point, I was strictly informed to never leave her alone in a kennel, because she would hurt herself trying to escape... Anyway the medication absolutely does not suppress any of her personality, she is a happy healthy little silly dork. I've heard that it makes dogs more tired at first, but like I said, our baby had already been on the meds for a few months when we got her. If it does, I'm sure it subsides, at least for some, because our 3 year old has the energy and silliness of a young pup. I didn't know her before, but she has such an exuberant personality now, all fun and energy, that I am certain all the energy and personality bounces back! At least with her I know it did.
> I have steered people away from SSRIs for the dog many times, but in cases like yours and mine where the situation indicates there may well be an imbalance present, I think it can do wonders. I hope you have as much success as our girl had!


Keep reading the thread ;-) Or maybe just skip to the end.

But yeah. There has definitely been lots and lots of success, and I could not be happier.


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## Sandy.klo (Sep 4, 2016)

Yeah... Um... I read the entire thread... I teared up multiple times...
I am so so happy for you and Molly... The transformation you describe... I wasn't aware it was possible. What a beautiful story of hope, and of a loving dog Mommy doing everything she can to make her doggy happy and actually DOING IT.
If it's okay, maybe I could private message you about my girl... She has some leash reactivity that is very concerning to us, even though she is normally dog friendly, and I'd love to talk to someone who straight up cured it. I know the medication helped put her in the frame of mind of a healthy dog, but it would be ridiculous to discount all the work you did to help her when she was there. Maybe you could give me a couple tips, if it wouldn't be too much trouble? I'll message you to see?
I know putting this into a pamphlet was mentioned, I think it would be a beautiful read for people who actually have dogs where medication could be a real solution.
I work a very nice pet supply store, and I've had customers come in who ask my opinion on medicating their dog because he chewed up the carpet once when the owner was gone, and therefore the vet recommends Xanax type drug... I hate that. I've also had customers who have dogs that are basically in a perpetual state of fear who tell me their vet recommended medication, but they won't consider it. I always sharey dogs situation with both and try to educate about the broader scheme of anxiety, but your story is so much more powerful. You absolutely should consider sharing it in a broader sense to spread awareness! What a wonderful tool that would be!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Sandy.klo said:


> Yeah... Um... I read the entire thread... I teared up multiple times...
> I am so so happy for you and Molly... The transformation you describe... I wasn't aware it was possible. What a beautiful story of hope, and of a loving dog Mommy doing everything she can to make her doggy happy and actually DOING IT.
> If it's okay, maybe I could private message you about my girl... She has some leash reactivity that is very concerning to us, even though she is normally dog friendly, and I'd love to talk to someone who straight up cured it. I know the medication helped put her in the frame of mind of a healthy dog, but it would be ridiculous to discount all the work you did to help her when she was there. Maybe you could give me a couple tips, if it wouldn't be too much trouble? I'll message you to see?
> I know putting this into a pamphlet was mentioned, I think it would be a beautiful read for people who actually have dogs where medication could be a real solution.
> I work a very nice pet supply store, and I've had customers come in who ask my opinion on medicating their dog because he chewed up the carpet once when the owner was gone, and therefore the vet recommends Xanax type drug... I hate that. I've also had customers who have dogs that are basically in a perpetual state of fear who tell me their vet recommended medication, but they won't consider it. I always sharey dogs situation with both and try to educate about the broader scheme of anxiety, but your story is so much more powerful. You absolutely should consider sharing it in a broader sense to spread awareness! What a wonderful tool that would be!


Sure, absolutely PM me and I'll see if I can offer anything to help. 

And agreed. Sometimes I see dogs who don't need it and think about medicating their dogs and that upsets me. It *also* upsets me when dogs I think it could help don't get it because of pride or stubbornness.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, and I don't actually think I've 'cured' it, or meds have, or that she is at all. Just that she now has some methods of coping and is much, much, better able to recover or not fly over the edge. It isn't like there's no managing going on!


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## Sandy.klo (Sep 4, 2016)

Thank you! I've PMed you l, but it's kinda long, I feel bad! I'll probably start a thread at some point too, I'm a little lost now...
I totally understand, cured us the wrong word, but progress to that extent is absolutely a miracle! And I'm betting you two are going to be doing just as you'd always hoped in not long! That's my hope.
I'm just so happy to see that such improvement CAN happen, for those that give it their all, and do everything they can to find a solution. Their is no 'miracle-cure,' but it seems miracles do happen with maximum live, education, and vigilance. And that, that us beautiful.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Two things:

Molly's actually been attending agility club practices weekly for the past month - and doing agility at them. Full courses, off leash. I mean she hasn't been doing them WELL (LOL), but she's doing them. She's entered in our trial at the end of this month, just to gain some ring experience and see how she does with the environment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFD0QY3Tuio

Tomorrow? She goes lure coursing. 

She has weekly play dates with a friend and whichever dogs come for the ride, and when we can get together she does weekly rally run throughs with another friend and her dogs. 


My biggest desire for Molly was to be able to take her to these things that I knew she would love. I'd say, right now, her world is pretty open and fulfilling. Win, guys. Don't know how the trial is going to go, don't know if she's going to hack that and we might have to scratch a lot and do some work on things not agility while we're there, but. Yeah. 

Next big goal I guess really is to hack a trial setting and be comfortable. Might be end of this month, might be January, might be years from now, but she's going to be able to do it. Of that, I have no doubt.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So yeah. That was a thing. A really really awesomely fun thing for her. She even handled the environment well - or reasonably well, because I will never blame a dog for reacting to 'dog on flexi lead with inattentive owner barking and snarling at me' or 'dog slipped it's collar and ran toward me'. (I yelled at the first person, actually, though politely and just picked her up for the second). 

She DOES still bark at dogs a little but she's so easy to get back now. And that environment was so full of super aroused dogs.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

:clap2:

That is an AWESOME thing to watch! Completely different dog from this time last year. You've both done an amazing job


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BellaPup said:


> :clap2:
> 
> That is an AWESOME thing to watch! Completely different dog from this time last year. You've both done an amazing job


She really is completely different. She still barks some, but it's not insane and frantic. Tonight someone popped out of a door behind her, she startled, eyed him, barked a little and then moved on. She's still reactive, but it's a pretty mild thing, now. Not a major issue. She's even slowly making friends with our friend's new puppy (teenage puppy and full of beans, so this is impressive).

Tomorrow, rally. 

"I JUST WANT HER TO DO STUFF." She's done stuff four days this week, three of them in a row. I think we're covered ;-) Especially since my biggest hate was leaving her home when I KNEW she just really wanted to come along.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly ran agility with another dog today. 

We went to the park, met some people and did some focus work and experimentation with some jumps. Plopped Michael between them, had other dogs roaming around, my friend ran Molly instead of me. ...then when attempting to run her own dog Molly ran with Saph. As in tandem jumped with this other dog. 

...? ALL RIGHTY THEN.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

So happy to hear of your continued progress! I wish I had the motivation to work this hard on Soro's reactions to other dogs. But reading about yours is inspiring enough


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> So happy to hear of your continued progress! I wish I had the motivation to work this hard on Soro's reactions to other dogs. But reading about yours is inspiring enough


I could not have gotten this far alone. I am very blessed to have people who have given up lots and lots of their time to show up with their dogs and help me with her. Many of them once or twice, some of them every week since August. As a bonus, she's learned a crap ton of disc and rally.

She isn't perfect. There are still dogs she looks at and instantly hates. Most of them dogs who are either 'too friendly' (read exuberant and clueless) or are cattle dogs. She still freaking despises cattle dogs. She'll still go zero to sixty at something like a door opening and person popping out a door behind her at practice, or the electric company worker who came up to the car last night and stared into the car window (I think it was the hard hat). Dogs in places/situations she doesn't think there should be dogs is still likely to get a reaction (ie: A park she associates as empty and a dog appears in the distance). 

Buuuut a dog snarked at her when she tried to take his toy (it was her toy but you know, dogs) and she backed off and let it go. Didn't get afraid just kept her distance when he had a toy in his mouth and learned a thing. This? This is entirely manageable and doesn't cause me grief or stress. 

Trial this weekend. My goal is at some point to get into the ring and do any agility at all and get out without incident. Once I can form the association between where she is and what she's there to do, we'll be okay.

And I am so, so stinking proud of this dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Go team Molly!


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

I am always so happy to see these updates. Awesome work, both of you!!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parapluie said:


> I am always so happy to see these updates. Awesome work, both of you!!


I'm glad. I know when I was in the thick of the mess I'd have been happy as heck to see this kind of thread, if only for reassurance and hope. 

Speaking of: Molly went to an agility trial. She did agility. She got Qs. She was happy and fine. Miracles happen - and by miracles I mean sometimes you hit the right combination of busting your butt and luck to get results you never really believe are possible.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I had one very important (to me) goal for Molly. As of this weekend, that goal has been met and I'm declaring this thread over, barring unforeseen circumstances and maybe an annual update. We made it, you guys. We did the thing, and we did it well. 

First trial. First Qs. First title.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Nice! A huge congratulations to you both! You guys are an inspiration. I mean it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

:clap2::rockon::grouphug: awesome and congratulations to you and Molly


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Congratulations! What an inspiration you two are.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks, guys. 

I really almost can't even describe the feeling of her being in that ring, focused and listening and happy. Hair on the back of my neck and arms standing up, getting chills, and bursting into tears as soon as we were out of there. It was amazing. 

And so, so worth everything.


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## emmybear (Sep 7, 2015)

I am so happy for you and Molly. Her puppy thread was the first one I stumbled upon when I found this forum a while ago. To read this thread and see what you have gone through with her, how much effort you have put in to getting her to to this point. It's pretty amazing and I wish more dog owners were like you and many of the others on this forum. Congratulations on your success with Molly.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Actually, I was totally wrong. I want to post this video here.






The agility itself? Not spectacular. Good contacts but I'm WAY HARD indicating some hoop I don't want her to take instead of the jump I do, she's not entirely certain and it's not blazing fast, but not bad either. 

Mostly though, guys? Look at the background. The dogs walking around. The people in the ring. Her BODY LANGUAGE AND FOCUS. 

I'm classing this with 'actual evidence' of success as I measured it - and way more so than the ribbons.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I couldn't be more happy for you and especially Molly! I loved her tail wag at the end of the video. I think that summed it all up.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I couldn't be more happy for you and especially Molly! I loved her tail wag at the end of the video. I think that summed it all up.


Agreed! I was going to comment on the tail wag as well!


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Looking at the video, she is enjoying working with you. She has eyes only for you. Does it really get better than that? I don't think so. So happy for you!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I am so soooooo happy for you! And I know I don't need to tell you what an inspiration you and Molly have been, but I'm going to do it anyway - you guys are such an inspiration and such a huge source of HOPE, which I don't think there is enough of in dog training.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I couldn't be more happy for you and especially Molly! I loved her tail wag at the end of the video. I think that summed it all up.





ireth0 said:


> Agreed! I was going to comment on the tail wag as well!





Galathiel said:


> Looking at the video, she is enjoying working with you. She has eyes only for you. Does it really get better than that? I don't think so. So happy for you!





gingerkid said:


> I am so soooooo happy for you! And I know I don't need to tell you what an inspiration you and Molly have been, but I'm going to do it anyway - you guys are such an inspiration and such a huge source of HOPE, which I don't think there is enough of in dog training.


Thanks, guys. When I posted that video my original post included a lot more talk about he agility performance and then I just kind of realized - Nope, don't care. Dog was *in the ring* with not just focus on me in the face of distraction but was clearly happy to be there. She could have done nothing I asked her to with that and I'd have been thrilled. Instead she did it all WITH HAPPY. That wagging tail at the end - Man, I keep going back just to watch that, again and again. 

I'll also cop to a couple of things while I'm here, and in response:

1-) Hope. You're right, Gingerkid, you are so right. There is not nearly enough of that in dog training or out there period. There's a lot about accepting and loving the dog you have and that's important but 'your dog can still succeed' isn't. I'd have killed for this thread to be around when I was in the thick of pulling my hair out. Just to know that there is something on the other side of this crap. Or, heck, that there is a 'other side' at all. 

Don't get me wrong. Again: She's not 'cured'. She will never be what I consider dog friendly. It doesn't matter. She isn't normal but her life IS (and she is 200% people friendly, so there's that!). Holy grail, y'all. 

2-) In the last six months or so I feel like I got a new dog. Yeah, she's wildly different and a lot of 'that's not the same dog' remarks from people who saw her from 6 months - just about 2, but it's not really what I mean. I literally feel like I got a new dog. Because suddenly.. I have a dog at all? I didn't have a dog for a long time. I had a panic attack on a leash. She wasn't really... there, for a long time. Now she is and I'm excited that she's mine all over. I'm smitten with her. Possibilities and potential are back on the table again. 

It's just. It's nice.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, I read back and there is one thing I didn't mention here at all, re: Differences in Molly. 

She's cuddly. For a long time she wasn't. She still won't give up a disc or a ball or agility or activity to snuggle, but if she could live inside my skin other times? She would. Her favorite place is either on my feet at the desk or with her head tucked under my chin anywhere else. 

She's a very, very *loving* and affectionate dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I wanted to post this thing from FB, since people are still referencing this thread once in a while. 

So: 



> The advice I give most people who ask me for some re: reactive dogs these days is to stop. Stop working on b-mod exercises. Stay home, avoid as many triggers as you can, play with the dog, bond with the dog. Do some training so you can build relationship, communication and trust, but leave the active behavioral modification alone for a while. Let the dog and yourself come off the edge. Stressed person + stressed dog isn't a useful combination; nothing good can happen, there.
> 
> Ironically, that is both the thing that helped Molly most and the thing I was absolutely incapable of doing for a solid year.


As a more general update... Dog's fine. She's got a trial this weekend and we'll see how it goes, but these days even practices don't get so much as a single bark - ditto the more recent lure coursing she's done. She's still got some 'no go' zones - I will never take her into a petstore, I will never ask her to take an indoor class. I still don't allow strangers to pet her, I won't let her interact with unknown dogs I can't do proper, slow, introductions with, but overall. 

She's pretty much a dog at this stage. Reactions happen sometimes, she recovers, life goes on. She's chilled out, I've chilled out, and I've learned so, so much from her.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Screw it - I'm just going to keep updating this thing. There's still a dog, and as long as there is a dog growth and change will keep happening. 






This trial was pretty danged good. There was an incident where I tossed her leash behind her and she turned and noticed the cattle dog (she hates cattle dogs) in the hole that was really close. She left the ring (bad) but recalled back (hugely good) and ran the course. I bet you can't even tell which run in there was the one that was preceded by a near issue. 

Yes, yes I DID and will continue to make more precautions via being aware of what's behind her going forward. 

In other news I've discovered tug in more stressful environment really, really, REALLY helps her focus, connection, and all around stress levels. This is something I'm going to have to keep. A few minutes of INTENSE tug while we're waiting our turn is important. Kylie needs to hit the line and go. Molly needs just the opposite.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I like to continue to see her progress and the hope this thread gives is all the reason to keep it going. 

I'm considering medication for Ember. I'm trying to hold off until we move next year to see if see if she improves.. but I feel so bad for this dog. She is in a state of stress much of the time. She gets more stressed the more she is cooped up in the house (can't go out in the freezing cold to really play ball/frisbee for long.. will be easier when we have a different yard and setup). She growls at me all the time when she feels restrained and no amount of CC helps. She growls/snaps at Kairi if I'm restraining her in any way (which can be barely at all). There have been times when she gets in my face wanting to cuddle/give kisses.. so I pet her.. she proceeds to put her paws on my shoulders to give me more kisses.. realizes I'm super close in her bubble suddenly then growls/shakes but won't get off, or let me move her. I really. Really don't even being to understand this behavior. She freaks out and snarls at my feet if they move too close to her while laying down (even though I'm pretty sure I never kicked her in my sleep or anything). She only tolerates dogs nearby if she deems that they are supposed to be there (dog classes and such) but if she sees one outside of that she is extremely fear reactive.. unless she is off leash. She rarely looks or acts happy.. unless we are playing and especially outside. 

This dog so belongs on a farm where she does nothing but work and it breaks my heart that I have her in the suburbs (which will change thankfully). No leashes.. no dog classes.. nothing more than a pat on the head.. herding sheep all day.. that is her perfect life. Sorry to pop in and Border Collie rant.  Molly's agility looks great!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Don't apologize for the BC rant. If this isn't the place for it, I don't know where is. 

I don't think there's really any harm in trying meds, now or later or basically ever. I will say Molly's still a really weird dog. Some of our success with the meds -a lot of it - is down to me being able to act like a security blanket for her, so that when I say 'it's okay' she believes me, and some of it's in that the meds knocking the edge off have given me the ability to read/understand her and predict when things are going to be a problem and therefore let me trust her. IE: They gave me a dog to bond with - but still a weird dog. 

I have a good friend who likes to say that Molly notices everything, and it's really, really accurate. Also that thing you said about 'where she deems it appropriate' because she's cool at agility, or lure coursing, or some parks because dogs are there. I can walk her into a billion dogs and it's cool. If there are dogs unexpectedly at a location formerly known not to have dogs, or a new location, she will lose her crap. She adores our agility instructor but the first time she saw her at this new (to her) trial venue, she blew up - got over it in about 15 seconds and stayed fine all weekend but THIS IS NOT RIGHT!!!!Eleventy. Well, that and we were in the offices in front of the arena and the only indoor spaces Molly *does* are something like a freaking barn that's not really inside and home. Don't know why. Hates indoor spaces. Okay, probably because I kept her in classes where she was easily exploding for so long and now it's a Thing. She's also still acutely aware of body language in people and dogs. Dogs who are super upright and staring? Problem. Dogs who don't look like her idea of a dog (besides her hate of cattle dogs her most hated dogs are a really droopy hound and PWD)? Problem. People who want to stare deeply into her eyes and lean over and ESPECIALLY use baby talk? It's just really weird, okay? 

That said, once she realizes she's somewhere to 'work' - engaged with a disc, a ball, tug, or activity - she ceases to care about all the things. She acclimates pretty fast these days, gets over the "PROBLEM!" pretty fast (like, less than 30 seconds), doesn't trigger stack really at all, and she isn't miserable. In fact, she's pretty danged happy. Weird, not normal, takes management, but generally happy about 98% of the time. 

Her agility looks a little like a disaster to me, but it's because I'm so used to Kylie and I have to remind myself consciously that she did some classes and things, had a year off and has only been even sequencing more than a few obstacles in a U for about 4 months - and is TWO - and in 2 months before this trial she had one practice and one lesson.


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## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm so happy you're keeping this thread alive. I love reading it!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I do not remember the last time I saw a reaction from Molly at lure coursing, no matter what went on. Today it was two dogs getting into a friendly, but loud, scuffle under her nose. Another setting, she'd explode. 

Fixated on that bag/waiting her turn for it? 

Naaaah, too busy vibrating. Literally, literally vibrating. Only dog I've ever had who does that - and only dog I've ever had who TEETH CHATTERS for any reason besides 'male dog responding to a female in heat'. Weirdo.


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## Bonham (Feb 1, 2017)

I have read most of the thread and and I cannot express the healthy envy I feel. I hope my dog improves just like yours.

Unfortunately, right now money is a great issue at home. I didn't know that everything dog related was so expensive, and makes me fear ask this question:

How much money, more or less, do you spend in the medication every month? I remember when I was under similar meds and it was just crazy how much it costed, and here where I live there is no such thing as dog insurance plans to cut the cost in meds a bit, and the National Health Care System in my country wont cover it either. And no specialized dog pharmacies with loyalty cards or something like that.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Bonham said:


> I have read most of the thread and and I cannot express the healthy envy I feel. I hope my dog improves just like yours.
> 
> Unfortunately, right now money is a great issue at home. I didn't know that everything dog related was so expensive, and makes me fear ask this question:
> 
> How much money, more or less, do you spend in the medication every month? I remember when I was under similar meds and it was just crazy how much it costed, and here where I live there is no such thing as dog insurance plans to cut the cost in meds a bit, and the National Health Care System in my country wont cover it either. And no specialized dog pharmacies with loyalty cards or something like that.


I'm not CptJack, but I also have a dog on Prozac. We're in the US and can get a 90 day supply from Walgreens (regular pharmacy) for $10 with an annual $25 (I think) prescription card. Most of the SSRIs are available in generics, so they're not that expensive as they were a few years ago (at least in the US).

Good luck with your dog! Molly's story has often been a source of hope for me with my fearful boy.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Bonham said:


> I have read most of the thread and and I cannot express the healthy envy I feel. I hope my dog improves just like yours.
> 
> Unfortunately, right now money is a great issue at home. I didn't know that everything dog related was so expensive, and makes me fear ask this question:
> 
> How much money, more or less, do you spend in the medication every month? I remember when I was under similar meds and it was just crazy how much it costed, and here where I live there is no such thing as dog insurance plans to cut the cost in meds a bit, and the National Health Care System in my country wont cover it either. And no specialized dog pharmacies with loyalty cards or something like that.


Yeah, with a Walgreens rewards card I spend 5.00 every 40 days for her medication. I do not know what it will be like there, but here it is not so terribly expensive - prozac is, as a generic, overall not terribly expensive. She also has blood-work every 6 months to monitor levels but that is also not super expensive (like it's just two tests so it's about 100.00). My major medical expenses with her have come from eating Things She Shouldn't Eat and a lack of self-preservation and ripping off nails, breaking off teeth.

But the meds and vet care portion related to them are really, really not at all bad.

And I ALSO wish you luck!


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## NorCalFMD (Dec 12, 2016)

Thank you so much for all of the work and postings on this thread, CptJack. My pup is maybe not ready for meds yet, but I've been worried we're heading in that direction. Why do I worry? I'm outspoken about destigmatizing mental health issues in people, so why feel like a failure if my dog needs meds? This thread has really helped me balance out my thoughts and know that I'll do whatever is right for me and my pup so she can live a happy life.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

NorCalFMD said:


> Thank you so much for all of the work and postings on this thread, CptJack. My pup is maybe not ready for meds yet, but I've been worried we're heading in that direction. Why do I worry? I'm outspoken about destigmatizing mental health issues in people, so why feel like a failure if my dog needs meds? This thread has really helped me balance out my thoughts and know that I'll do whatever is right for me and my pup so she can live a happy life.


Hey, I meant to reply to this earlier today and got sidetracked - sorry about that. 

The unfortunate reality is that even accepting that dogs have emotions - period - is relatively new as far as scientific evidence goes. There are also a lot of back and forth on nature versus nurture and the importance of SOCIALIZATION and PROPER TRAINING - with the directly related assumption that any dog with fear issues is some kind of rescue from a horrible situation or otherwise they wouldn't Be That Way. And also the idea that people who medicate their dogs are basically sedating them (not how it works) and are lazy and just want an easy solution (lol, no).

I'm going somewhere with this, I swear. 

Then you add in the fact that there is still a huge amount of stigma related to even human mental health (You don't need pills you need to go for a run type crap) annnnd. The result is whether we like it or not, we absorb the idea that if we do things right with our dogs, if they are socialized and trained that they'll be fine. 

I absolutely know dogs have emotions. I absolutely know that socializing and training are important, but I also know that personalities are inborn and a lot of things are genetic and that the best you can do is influence along the scale laid down BY genetics. 

I still struggled and felt guilty and ashamed and like a failure. I also felt, insanely, embarrassed by her. 

In my head? I'm a decent trainer. That meant that I had screwed up somewhere AND that I should be able to counter condition, desensitize, BAT, Matwork, whatever our way out of the mess I had surely made. As a result it took me longer to seek medical help than it should have, and frankly I regret that because the dog suffered a decreasing quality of life in the meanwhile. 

Bottom line is, I can counter condition. I can desensitize. I can do BAT and matwork and follow calming protocol and understand thresholds and TEACH. But I can't change brain chemistry and I can only teach when there is a dog in there to learn. 

We've come a LONG way and I"m super proud of the dog and yet I am still, a little, defensive about her being on meds sometimes. 

Because I've absorbed a lot of that crap and made it my baggage. Putting it down's kind of hard. NO regrets about the meds though. *None*.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

CptJack said:


> But I can't change brain chemistry


I don't think this is emphasized enough. I also wonder if mental health treatments would be easier for people to accept if there was some kind of physiological/biochemical/diagnostic imaging test to readily identify e.g., serotonin or dompamine levels/uptake (or other things idk, neurology isn't my field), like there is for infections, high cholesterol, broken bones, kidney failure, hemachromatosis, etc.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> I don't think this is emphasized enough. I also wonder if mental health treatments would be easier for people to accept if there was some kind of physiological/biochemical/diagnostic imaging test to readily identify e.g., serotonin or dompamine levels/uptake (or other things idk, neurology isn't my field), like there is for infections, high cholesterol, broken bones, kidney failure, hemachromatosis, etc.


Imaging or a blood test or something definitive that could prove that there is a physical issue that can be treated with meds, I think would help a lot. It's biology. It's neurology. It's a physical thing and people seem to have a really hard time accepting that.

It makes things really hard for a lot of people (and dogs since we're where we are).


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I don't think this is emphasized enough. I also wonder if mental health treatments would be easier for people to accept if there was some kind of physiological/biochemical/diagnostic imaging test to readily identify e.g., serotonin or dompamine levels/uptake (or other things idk, neurology isn't my field), like there is for infections, high cholesterol, broken bones, kidney failure, hemachromatosis, etc.





CptJack said:


> Imaging or a blood test or something definitive that could prove that there is a physical issue that can be treated with meds, I think would help a lot. It's biology. It's neurology. It's a physical thing and people seem to have a really hard time accepting that.
> 
> It makes things really hard for a lot of people (and dogs since we're where we are).


Absolutely agree with this ^^^

I don't think I saw this shared here: http://www.drjensdogblog.com/behavior-medication-first-line-therapy-or-last-resort/

A few quotes,


> It’s important to realize that there is a critical difference between dogs with truly abnormal behavior issues (inappropriate aggression or reactivity, separation anxiety, thunderstorm or noise phobias, etc.) and dogs who have training problems like jumping on people or not coming when called. Dogs with training issues don’t need medication – period. They need patience, consistency, and a good training plan to teach them what we want.
> 
> But for dogs with more serious behavior issues, it’s often difficult or even impossible for them to learn until we address their underlying anxiety. The brain chemistry of a dog who responds to every stranger or novel object as a terrifying threat is fundamentally different from a dog who accepts these things in stride. The same is true for a dog who panics every time his owner leaves – his heart rate soars, he salivates uncontrollably, and his system is flooded with adrenaline. These are real, physical changes that preclude any kind of learning until we can get them under control.





> In my opinion, medication should be considered as a first-line treatment option for the vast majority of dogs with true behavior problems – including aggression, compulsive behavior issues, and any type of pathological anxiety. When we try to reserve the use of drugs as a last resort, something that we only try if the case is “really bad”, or if nothing else has helped, I believe that we do these dogs a tremendous disservice.
> 
> To me, this is similar to saying that we don’t want to use insulin in a diabetic patient unless he’s crashing with DKA, or that we don’t want to treat an infection with antibiotics until full-blown sepsis sets in – it makes no sense to withhold a basic treatment option with minimal risks and lots of potential benefits, until the situation becomes truly desperate.
> 
> Far better, if we can, to prevent this from happening in the first place with a well thought-out, comprehensive treatment plan in the beginning.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> Absolutely agree with this ^^^
> 
> I don't think I saw this shared here: http://www.drjensdogblog.com/behavior-medication-first-line-therapy-or-last-resort/
> 
> A few quotes,



I. Love. This. Article. Thank you! Now to go share it!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Where was that article a year ago.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly, waiting her turn at lure coursing. She's kind of excited. Behaving, but excited  Ie Noooot exaggerating when I say she vibrates.

As a more general update, she was out all day - agility lesson, then lure coursing, with lunch between the two and she... had no problems with the new dogs at lure coursing, she solicited attention from every PERSON there, and didn't bark at all - not even when she was in the van waiting. She also responded to the agility instructor having to call out to get my attention (I didn't see her) by breaking into a run - straight toward the instructor. Not sure how return to agility practices is going to go since she's had the field to herself for months, but I am REALLY pleased with her overall.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

What a good girl waiting for her turn.. even if she is vibrating. Kai cannot be anywhere she can see it or she will scream. Ember becomes a Meerkat. I love lure coursing.. fun and easy "sport". Are you guys doing fun runs or AKC coursing ability?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> What a good girl waiting for her turn.. even if she is vibrating. Kai cannot be anywhere she can see it or she will scream. Ember becomes a Meerkat. I love lure coursing.. fun and easy "sport". Are you guys doing fun runs or AKC coursing ability?


We're doing fun runs. We've got a dog friend with land and another dog friend bought the equipment, so we go basically every weekend there's not agility on - all the runs you want, for 2.00/dog, 5.00 household for battery and gas upkeep - it's fantastic. I might eventually try for a CAT but the truth is - she sucks at it. Loves it, but following the lure isn't so much her goal as 'get ahead of it, crouch and stare at it, then zoom off and try to get ahead again. When she can't because the lure operator knows what they're doing she will do a decent chase - for a while, but ultimately will cut off into the middle of the field, and - crouch and eye it. LOL. BUT FUN IS HAD.

And I am VERY proud of her behaving there! And really really love what it does for her physical condition. Two weeks in a row, and she hardens up a LOT.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly has fallen in love with obedience. Heeling, sits, stays, downs, recalls, doing them in motion? Better than agility. Better than disc. Better than ball. Not actually better than lure coursing, but close. 

I... am so completely baffled by this. 

So. Completely. Baffled. 

She's liked it a while but she just keeps liking it more and more. It's. Weird.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

First run is Molly and holy progress, Batman.

Also after months of lessons and being the only dog there? She was awesome. Had ONE moment when we were going through gates with a BC staring intently at her, but she regrouped and was good. Even had a giant schnauzer run into her face and she... barked once, backed off, and moved on.

At this point I barely even consider her reactive. Wild.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly worked with a friend - Okay, she did 3 jumps, 2 of which my husband caught on phone video without me knowing, then tore back to me (and my friend's dog). LOL.

(And ignored the other little dog in the woman's arms that she knows not at all.)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Watch this - or at least watch the beginning. And remember, this is my scaredy dog. The dog I never thought would trial. The dog I thought was never going to be able to do much of anything. 

And guys? This weekend was a new location, loaded with people and dogs. 

She's *GREETING RING CREW*. She had ZERO problems all weekend. She even acted positively interested in other dog (I did not let that happen but she gave them actively friendly body language).


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

"The dog I thought was never going to be able to do much of anything"

Love that she proved you wrong.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

That's so awesome. It's great to see a dog that most people would have given up on going out and just being a dog!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Wet Beards said:


> "The dog I thought was never going to be able to do much of anything"
> 
> Love that she proved you wrong.


Me too! Wrong and in spades, I realized when someone asked me how old she was and my answer was '2'. Really surprising to me, but yeah. She's not even 3 yet. 



Lillith said:


> That's so awesome. It's great to see a dog that most people would have given up on going out and just being a dog!


SHe's being a dog. A GREAT dog. Who likes ALL THE THINGS.


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## Poppy14 (Apr 13, 2017)

I'm very new here and actually found this particular thread after many a google search , though I am active on another dog forum.

I just wanted to say that your journey with Molly has been incredibly inspiring.

I have a working Cocker mix that has many of the same traits as your Molly. His anxiety is just off the charts. We have faced an uphill battle and finally he was prescribed Trazodone and Fluoxetine. I really hate the Trazodone (it just spaces him out) but the Fluoxetine I believe has helped, though he is on a very low dose. 

We are going in about a week and a half to see the "closest" thing to a vet behaviorist (he is about 3 hours away) as our vet is awesome but has admitted her knowledge of behavioral medication is limited. I'd like to get him off the trazodone for sure but we'll see what is suggested after that.

I would love to make him as happy as can be, and I'd also love to start private lessons with him to work on reactivity - we took some for awhile but ultimately dropped off because we weren't making any progress pre-medication. He is such a smart, loving dog but there are definitely days when I think he'll never be able to have any semblance of a "normal" life -- therefore your thread has given me just an ounce of hope


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## marypetlover (Mar 30, 2017)

If it's whats best for your dog, I say go for it. Good luck with everything!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly turned 3 at the end of last month. She's been on meds for 16 months - that's almost half her life, but. 

We had yet another agility trial this past weekend - no reactivity at any point, at all. She barked briefly at another dog but not frantic barking just irritated 'go away' stuff and it was about 3 barks. Otherwise, all day at the trial (she only did 1 day) and... nothing. Seriously, slept in her crate while crated, rolled over on her hip half asleep in the bleachers while we observed, no stress or over-aroused behavior in the ring. Greeted and was sweet with people just - Absolutely fine. 

AND THEN this morning she went out with the new puppy for a potty trip and she played chase with him. There were zoomies and play bows and barking from her. She's never had zoomies in her life. She's rarely ever played much with another dog, even one of ours. Play beside other dogs, yes, but with them? Occasional bitey face and wrestling with the big guy, and that's about it. 

My dog's *almost* a normal dog. I'll always do some management, yes, because she's still got Opinions, but fear issues? Not so much. Reactivity? Very, very, rarely.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

These photos are not great and I do not care. 

Kiran's been having play-dates at a friends farm. Today that playdate was after Molly's agility lesson. I fully intended to just leave her crated in the back of the (open, shaded, with fan/water) van. But I got there and was asked if I wanted to try and, well, I really trust my friend so I did. 

One of these dogs she's only laid eyes on before maybe twice and had no interaction with - and is a teenaged, rough playing, full on, rude puppy. One she knows fairly well, but only rarely sees. The other she's seen exactly once. Then Kiran. 

And y'all. She not only did it, she did it well and for hours. 

Yes, she absolutely snarked in his face when he got pushy and rude and physical - and he listened and she backed off and that was the end of trouble. 3 hours, with 4 other dogs. And also with donkeys and goats at one point. She DID bark at the donkeys once, but also was able to call off and sit down and watch quietly. 



























































































Better than all the titles in the world, y'all.


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## ssthomas19 (Jul 13, 2017)

Congratulations on your success with doggy Prozac! I was looking for threads about medication for anxiety and her progress seems to be outstanding! Happy for her.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks, guys. I continue to update and she continues to do well.









This is her at a trial today. Yep, she's asleep.









Ring in front of us, interstate (and noise) behind and she was... asleep. 

She also got a title today, but mostly: SHE WENT TO SLEEP with other dogs, strange people, all kinds of noise and activity. She relaxed, and she slept.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

This seems to be her all purpose thread now, so.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I would have sworn we had gotten as far as we were going to get, but I would have been wrong.

Decompression walks, man. Decompression walks (Sarah Stremming thing). Not something everyone is able to do, but off leash or long line walks/hikes in nature, minimal direction or interference from humans. Not playing ball, not playing disc, not training, very very few instructions, rules, or cues, just being a dog, are making a big, big difference for her.

As long as Molly gets that even once or twice a week, she relaxes, she's less tense, she's less prone to over-arousal, less sharp - just happier and more resilient. All the 'structured' activity and exercise doesn't come close to giving me the same result.

To whit, today she hung out in the car with me while husband was doing some stuff both before and after agility and she just... chilled out. Usually, if nothing else, she barks at people approaching the car. Lately? Not even that. Heck, the agility instructor's husband popped out of nowhere on the field today. She looked, she wagged, she went back to doing stuff with me. Instantly. 

Also, have a picture.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

She even *looks* more relaxed. Like, if I had seen that photo somewhere else, I would not have guessed that was Molly!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> She even *looks* more relaxed. Like, if I had seen that photo somewhere else, I would not have guessed that was Molly!


YES! That's actually why I took that picture. Until the past few weeks, even at home, I don't think I've ever seen her that... soft. Turning around and seeing it when we were out and in a busy environment was...

Wild. I love it, but WILD.


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## NorCalFMD (Dec 12, 2016)

CptJack said:


> Watch this - or at least watch the beginning. And remember, this is my scaredy dog. The dog I never thought would trial. The dog I thought was never going to be able to do much of anything.


Ok, that video actually made me tear up a bit, I am so happy for you and Molly! What amazing progress, you've worked so hard and it shows. 

My pup and I have been to 2 agility classes so far, and while it will probably never be something we do at any competition level, I'm already seeing some changes in her anxiety level and ability to focus.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly in her happy place.

Agility was SO GOOD for Kylie. For Molly it's a little different, almost opposite, but sports have a lot of benefits for both dog and handler - and sometimes have the most benefit in dogs that really aren't quite 'okay', in whatever way. I hope your girl keeps progressing and finding all those benefits!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

So pleased to catch up on this thread! Amazing! I also almost cried at the video. My Sybbie has become more reactive over the past two years and I have not dedicated myself to it the way you have so this is very inspiring.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Agility practice - mostly what was happening OFF the course, but last clip is her on. Ignore the sloppy music and editing - I can't handle listening to myself talk on video, and in this one had me talking + really annoying wind noises.

Pomom, sometimes I watch some of this stuff - video or otherwise - and DO cry just a little. I'm just so... grateful and proud of that dog.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

You should be proud! So heartwarming to witness.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Posted this on FB today. Posting it here because this is basically the 'reactive dog journal' for me.

----
I'm thinking about Molly this morning and most of what I'm thinking is that I have got to stop with the labels and calling her stuff like 'The Neurotic Princess'.

I don't mean I need to stop managing her - she needs distance from dogs I'm not going to take time to introduce her properly to, and she needs to not meet strange people - and I will definitely call her names, but applying a bunch of labels at this point isn't helping me manage her. It's just getting in our way.

Kylie is more likely to lunge at another dog than Molly, at this point, and she's less likely to ultimately make friends when given a slow and proper introduction. Kylie would also prefer most people keep their hands the eff off her. Yet, I've never considered Kylie a problem. I didn't have labels for her, I just gave her what she needed to be comfortable, didn't care too much and moved on.

There are places Kylie is comfortable and can go that I wouldn't take Molly because she wouldn't be at all happy there, but-

The labels have served their use, at this point, and need to go. It's no longer a matter of 'this is what is going on and since I know I can figure out how to fix it'. All that's happening now is that the verbage is reinforcing this view of her as 'broken' in my head.

She needs some stuff and I'll make sure she gets it, but she's not broken. She's Molly. She's my dog. Those are pretty much the only labels that need to be applied, dammit.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Yes and relate. Language carries so much power because we have been using it to think since we were 2. Labels are short hand but can sometimes backfire and become a way of looking at things that are dynamic and on a spectrum as black and white. It's like mental health diagnoses in our culture. They don't describe a specific disease so much as a group of symptoms that will be experienced differently by different people. At least these are the thoughts that were triggered in me by your post. And I think it goes back to what you were saying about accepting a dog for who they are. I think I'm running away with your point on my own mind-workings. Still very thought provoking.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly at last weekend's trial.









Distance from ring.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Nice job, as always! I am continuously inspired by Molly and your acceptance of who she is. And she is AWESOME. My work wants me to write an article about acceptance (specifically for fearful dogs) and Molly definitely comes to mind, in terms of your journey with her and how far she's come because of your work and how you celebrate her.

Also, your matching game is so on point. I had to stare at the photo for a long time to realize the crate mat and the blanket were two separate entities. My first thought was wondering how you got a super convenient bottomless crate type thing...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

At some point it's basically accept the dog you have or tear your hair out  Besides, you're right, she's a very good dog and we've got a pretty good understanding now.

I laughed at the remark about matching. I bought those things entirely separately, and the crate 'mat' is actually 2 car mats I got for a whole dollar in a local overstock store. I set up at the trial and was baffled (and amused). I could not have shade matched that well if my life had depended on it!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The 'general public' is frustrating the crap out of me, all over again.

Molly is now, mostly, entirely fine with people - barring some specific and relatively rarestuff. Entirely fine ranges from neutral to *really* happy to see them. 

So, when she was growling, snarling, barking, stiff and with her hackles up the most common response was to stop, or try, and baby talk and coo 'reassuringly' at her, generally making a fuss and making her more uncomfortable.

Her happy greeting, which is more and more common now, is to wiggle loosely, squint her eyes, wag her tail, approach with a c-shaped body and her ears back, and submissive grin while wiggling. CAN YOU GUESS HOW PEOPLE RESPOND TO THAT?

Terror. Stark. Raving. Terror.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

People suck. Once, my Pippin was barking at another dog and this dude picks up his dog and rams his dog up Pippin's butt telling me that will "cure" him.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Reactivity has come up on the forums again and Molly had a training date with some friends today so, straight up shameless brag.

She's not normal. She has SURPASSED normal.

Y'all. This was a disc thing.

In a public park.

With children, other dogs (besides the disc ones), bicycles, and traffic.

She had dogs she's never seen before running 3 feet from her nose chasing discs and didn't do more than prick her ears and whine. She worked for, and sat in the laps of, strangers. She played disc well. She wasn't ignoring the environment but wasn't distracted by it in the least.

I was informed, by the person who is a CGC evaluator that she would pass the test, easily, and you know? She was right. 

I'd gotten to the point where I expect this kind of stuff from her at agility events, but this? Was above and beyond. It wasn't known and a 'we know what we're here to do so let's do it' thing. This was just Molly, at a busy park, doing stuff with strange people and dogs, off leash and without fences. 

She ... has gone from a dog with a short fuse to damned close to bomb proof. And I am amazed. my FB memories from 2 years ago said 'I just want to be able to do SOMETHING' with her. Nearly 3 years ago, I was in absolute tears and had no hope of ever getting anywhere. 

BIG time scale, but yeah. I'd say we've made some progress.

(Will I ever stop being amazed? Lol, no.)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://youtu.be/vFX8zQ5uaBA

There is absolutely nothing particularly impressive in the behavior here - and please remember not to judge her as an obedience or rally dog; she isn't one. 

What there is? What I would like you to look at? Is the environment and the DOG. (And okay to know that that first clip is a morning arrival at an agility lesson). 

Guys? No words. None. I keep thinking we're as good as we could possibly get, and I keep being DEAD WRONG.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I cried. Honest real tears for the beauty.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Pomom said:


> I cried. Honest real tears for the beauty.


So did I, to be honest <3

She got her novice trick title today which is... not a big deal. What is fairly impressive is that she did it at an unfamiliar *indoor* location, with dogs barking from the other side of a wall, did it happily and comfortably, and then went to tractor supply and picked out a toy to celebrate. 

I went in prepared to move outside, but she was legitimately okay in that basement. THAT was what prompted me to try TSC. Where she barked at the cashier, redirected easily and moved on. 

...also I cracked everyone up because I have *accidentally* taught that dog one hell of a heel.


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## Lovelymuffy69 (Sep 12, 2017)

Watching the journey. My Rory has issues. Good luck.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

From facebook, so names are going to be odd for you all, but.

That in depth brag I promised. This week Molly:

-Took her disc up to a group of several people chatting, in hopes of them throwing it.

-Played disc with several people (including some she's had little to no previous interaction with, like Seth).

-Actually sat at Travis feet and, I think, wanted to be adopted by him (he throws far and is the best).

-Would LIKE to have played tug with them and her disc (this is horrible, funny, but also impressive; spit her disc and back off is what she does when she's still not sure)

-Jumped up on people and made kissy faces at them.

-Sniffed Min and realized Min was neither a rabbit or a threat.

- Did not give a **** about the other dogs, including Rusty. Biggest concern from her was that she wasn't getting any turns at playing just then.

-Wore a go pro for a bit,was unbothered.

-Chased her disc while people walked by really close. Was not distracted but also did not care.

-Left through a crowd of small children , including one tiny one nearly running directly into her, without issue. (Wagged her tail and was friendly looking, even)

Y'all, she's been improving over all for a long time, but she's barely even recognizable as the same dog from 6 months ago. She's still not going to want to be pet and handled by strangers, and I have no doubt she still has limited tolerance for rude dogs, and she can still be pretty tightly wound, but.

Holy. Crap.

I keep thinking 'she's good, this is the 'finish line', she's not going to get better/there is no better. And I keep being DEAD WRONG.

(First person who makes a crack about 'rude' behavior like not outting or jumping up for this particular dog wins me rolling my eyes so hard I sprain something)


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## oldNgray (Aug 3, 2018)

CptJack said:


> This week Molly:
> 
> -Took her disc up to a group of several people chatting, in hopes of them throwing it.
> 
> ...


Molly has come such a long way in a very short time!
So what if she doesn't want to be pet or handled by strangers? I don't want strangers touching me either!
And rude dogs? Again, I feel the same and that includes rude people. 
Go Molly!!!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

oldNgray said:


> Molly has come such a long way in a very short time!
> So what if she doesn't want to be pet or handled by strangers? I don't want strangers touching me either!
> And rude dogs? Again, I feel the same and that includes rude people.
> Go Molly!!!


I am totally okay with those things. They're normal, especially for herd-y things. And she is ONE HECK of a herdy thing!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Professional photos were taken. 

That's one of those 'never going to happen' things that. Happened. She even played with the photographer.


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## NorCalFMD (Dec 12, 2016)

I was looking for a new agility class to take recently (my old one has been canceled for the foreseeable future because of a damaged field), and I had a terrible phone call with the head of a local agility club. She said that my Klara would never be allowed to get anywhere near a trial ring 'all doped up', referring to her fluoxetine. Aside from the fact that she made me cry by telling me that I clearly hadn't trained well enough, tried hard enough, or seriously thought about the side effects of the medication my dog is on, she also made me wonder if that's true. 

I don't think we'd ever get to the point of doing an actual triail, but are there rules in place around that? Molly is still on her meds right, has that caused any issues?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

NorCalFMD said:


> I was looking for a new agility class to take recently (my old one has been canceled for the foreseeable future because of a damaged field), and I had a terrible phone call with the head of a local agility club. She said that my Klara would never be allowed to get anywhere near a trial ring 'all doped up', referring to her fluoxetine. Aside from the fact that she made me cry by telling me that I clearly hadn't trained well enough, tried hard enough, or seriously thought about the side effects of the medication my dog is on, she also made me wonder if that's true.
> 
> I don't think we'd ever get to the point of doing an actual triail, but are there rules in place around that? Molly is still on her meds right, has that caused any issues?


There are *some* rules in place around medicated dogs - barely, and at international levels, and even then only to avoid people giving their dog PAIN MEDICATION so they can run injured. 

There are no rules against running on SSRIs, not in any organization that I know of. Molly is still on meds, everyone knows it, no one gives a crap. They would if she were creating problems for other dogs or people (ie: Meds weren't working), but that's all.

That woman you talked to was both a jerk and WRONG. I am so mad for you!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

NorCalFMD said:


> I was looking for a new agility class to take recently (my old one has been canceled for the foreseeable future because of a damaged field), and I had a terrible phone call with the head of a local agility club. She said that my Klara would never be allowed to get anywhere near a trial ring 'all doped up', referring to her fluoxetine. Aside from the fact that she made me cry by telling me that I clearly hadn't trained well enough, tried hard enough, or seriously thought about the side effects of the medication my dog is on, she also made me wonder if that's true.
> 
> I don't think we'd ever get to the point of doing an actual triail, but are there rules in place around that? Molly is still on her meds right, has that caused any issues?


Sorry you had that experience. What a horrible thing to say. I hope you and Klara find a more welcoming club. You probably dodged a bullet...


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## NorCalFMD (Dec 12, 2016)

Thanks to you both, it was really awful. I am not wrong for medicating my dog, but it's hard to remember sometimes. This was our first phone conversation to set up a time to visit her facility, and she was incredibly dismissive and horrible. 

There aren't a lot of clubs in my area, but I've reached out to a few people today via email to look for classes. Klara and I just want to have fun and build confidence! It's fun for both of us.

I went and watched my first agility trial today, it was happening at my local fairgrounds and I was nearby for another event. It looks so great! Such happy pups!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)




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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzxb_l-fGlQ

She's so happy.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

...she's more dog friendly than Kylie at this point. Weird.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

... Still. Improving. 

Weird.









I just like this picture of her chicken watching.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

"Reactive".

She does know the lady she's playing with (good friend of mine). She knows neither the other people nor other dogs. There's a bus driving by. There are children at a birthday party screaming. 

Un.freaking.real.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

That is so Awesome !!!!!!!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> That is so Awesome !!!!!!!


It is. I"m amazed by the change. She went to a trial at a totally unknown (to her) location last weekend - full of unknown dogs and people, and one barn dog who had no owner there but comes with the property and.
















(Barn dog)








Not a single hiccough.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks CptJack! Still an inspiration!
Admittedly, some days when I work with a very reactive dog and don't make the amount of progress I hope to make, I think of the Mollys of the world and remember that it doesn't take a day, or a week. But the journey is worth it. I just wish the owners saw it that way too.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Thanks CptJack! Still an inspiration!
> Admittedly, some days when I work with a very reactive dog and don't make the amount of progress I hope to make, I think of the Mollys of the world and remember that it doesn't take a day, or a week. But the journey is worth it. I just wish the owners saw it that way too.


Yeah, years is more like the timeline.

Honestly, I think if I'd been stuck without the dog sports community I have, I would have quit. The practical help was useful but the bigger thing was people shrugging about it and saying "Okay so the goal is to be able to compete with management." Because that, weirdly, is easier than the life stuff and. The unexpected thing I only recognize in hindsight is that the very act of doing something she loves (the sport) in these new locations and presence of people and dogs who don't ever expect interaction was that her confidence built and she was counter conditioned/desensitized in away that I just couldnt' do with food alone. And she was safer because her focus wasn't on the scary stuff, it was locked onto the fun stuff making her more tolerant. 

Pretty sure being into sports and her drive to work and play actually saved her life. 

Along with meds and training, but.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I think your approach was wonderful and I've actually shifted my approach to something along these lines rather than things like pure BAT. Go out, do what the dog loves first, enjoy being outside. Then, work around dogs. The challenge with a lot of reactive dog techniques is it works on the premise of 'use food, work around other dogs' in some capacity. And the distance is just not workable in real life because the dog is then looking for other dogs and over threshold too fast.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> I think your approach was wonderful and I've actually shifted my approach to something along these lines rather than things like pure BAT. Go out, do what the dog loves first, enjoy being outside. Then, work around dogs. The challenge with a lot of reactive dog techniques is it works on the premise of 'use food, work around other dogs' in some capacity. And the distance is just not workable in real life because the dog is then looking for other dogs and over threshold too fast.


Yeah. The pure theory stuff - is probably really good in a super controlled setting but super controlled settings just don't really exist out in the world and every time the dog gets flung over threshold because they've learned to seek them out things get WORSE. I'm super validated to hear you confirm that.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Jumping straight into working around dogs, disengage, and BAT are fine when a dog is not THAT reactive or when a dog's motivation for X is greater than their fear/frustration of dogs. Like the... 'my dog barks at other dogs and he really wants to say hi' or it's on a scale of 'annoying' for owners. But for the 'I need to drag my snarling beast away and I (owner) am anxious any time I see a dog", we need to go a bit deeper and really, simpler, before jumping into dog stuff. 

Honestly, reactivity is so complex that despite a lot of successes I've had working with a variety of reactive dogs... Every time I feel like I've hit on something universally good I meet a dog that is just a little different. It definitely is one of the most challenging stuff, and some of my favorite too just because there is so much potential for bettering quality of life. I mean, you got it faster than most people. It being, expectations, medication, and loving the dog in front of you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

From 6-26-16:



CptJack said:


> The question now becomes: How many positive experiences will it take ME to stop being a hyper-vigilant basket case?
> .


I lost count somewhere along the way P) but stop being a hyper-vigilant basket-case? 'bout 3 years, turns out.

Worst case scenario happened today. HUGE (and I mean massive) lab mix looking thing came crashing out of undergrowth at the creek where the dogs were playing and ran straight into Molly. Molly sniffed ( politely ) then I calmly called and she walked back to me to leash her (and sit on Kiran) while we waited on the dog's owner to come collect his dog.

No negative reaction *at all*. Not to the startle, not to the dog's rudeness, size, or color (all have been issues previously). Nothing. 

This might be the point where I actually say 'we have arrived'. Probably not. Probably something will backslide or progress or something, but as of right now, I am pretty damn chill and....

I truly trust my dog.

ETA: Also I took her to an off leash playdate with 2 other dogs in the park today. Not a worry at all. So. Yeah.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

mathieuusa said:


> Good luck Bro. and of course we will be following this thread. All the best!
> And we need to try our best !!


Keep reading, LOL.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Two years ago, Molly went to get a drink, fell off an underwater ledge, freaked out, swam across a creek and I had to drag her back to the proper side. 

I let it go.

Yesterday, I decided to go out in clothes I could get wet, some meatballs and a ball to see if we could get her happy about water again. 

Yes. Yes I could.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

That is wonderful <3 <3 ... I always feel that sometimes the dogs are not ready for what you are trying to teach them , expose them to... that there are other skills , experiences to learn first.. And even just needing to be more mature mentally. That there is no shame in getting a refusal and (stop) go do other things instead that flow more freely with dog to learn and experience. And come back to it later..

I know in your situation it was an accidental exposure for Molly that hit her very wrong when she was not in a solid state of her well being.. Wonderful to see all that you have done for her and with her to see her so gracefully take up the opportunity to experience the water.


We were talking on a different group, about fearful aggression behavior.. And I didn't think it was... Tasman had a bad reaction from being put in a crate, into a car on a plane, traveling to the US, and ending up in a strange place all the while surrounded by strangers ... Nothing bad happen to him, no one harmed him, flight was quick on schedule, the paid professional reliable handlers were arranged for him along his journey.. Tasman just had an extreme reaction for his age and undeveloped nervous system. 

OH no not getting into a crate, or a vehicle and go on another trip to [email protected] never to return.. NO WAY..... lol... I let him be.. let Tasman be where he wanted to be , no socializing cause he not get in a vehicle to go anywhere lol.... Can't train anything for positive success with a panic animal.. Nothing but home life for Tasman to grow and learn bond, trust with me and his family. He's 2 now, and solid as a rock for anything and everything new.... He is of good breeding and that is what I got a solid dog in his breed.. He didn't need anything more, except time to develop into himself in a safe place

There is no shame to back off and move on in your training in other areas for the general dog owner...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

People get weird about teaching things RIGHT NOW. 

It's almost never important that it be addressed RIGHT THIS SECOND.

Learning to read the dog and follow them has done me (and my dogs) a world of good - in regular old life and also sports. Kiran could weave faster than he could loose leash walk. It's cool.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Bonnie, who is Golden Retriever and Poodle, took almost three years to finally get in the lake with my sister's two Goldens and actually swim. She had been to the lake a lot but would hardly go in far enough to get her feet wet. Her daughter by a Poodle went right in and swam around her second trip to the lake, they are all so different.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Just Molly. Playing disc at the same time as a couple of other dogs and people. All the dogs stayed on their toy, stayed out of each other's way, and brought their disc back to their person. No big deal. 

(Big deal.)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Since this is her thread now: 









Also, we'll be reducing her medication with intent to wean her off starting in a couple of weeks (with her next refill).


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CONGRATS on all fronts! I'd be interested to hear how she does when you start weaning. Good luck! Though I think Molly will be fine


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I put the discs up to do some other stuff.

She found them again, LOL


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

(lol)  (too short)


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## laurelsmom (Feb 13, 2019)

Canyx said:


> CONGRATS on all fronts! I'd be interested to hear how she does when you start weaning. Good luck! Though I think Molly will be fine


I will also be following this journey. Medication has been suggested for my anxiety dog, Chocolate, so I appreciate this thread. It's good to know that meds can be used as a temporary tool instead of for the life of the dog.

Not rehoming or euthanizing my damaged mongrel either way, unless someone else can give her a better life.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, hey. I forgot to do the medication taper update.

So, at half-dose (20mg) she's fine and pretty much same as always. OFF she is not bad but becomes really really food obsessed. Nothing reactivity wise but kind of OCD about food again. 

She is not at her best right now thanks to stay at home orders. She's pretty sharp actually, and super fast to respond to everything. No surprise there, but does reinforce my belief that decompression activities were a big part of the picture in helping her.


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## laurelsmom (Feb 13, 2019)

That's fantastic news. I'm still trying to avoid anti-anxiety meds for Chocolate unless I can work with a licensed, qualified veterinarian who agrees with me about an exit strategy, so it's great to know that you were able to use these meds as a tool, rather than the life sentence they used to be for humans in the "bad old days".

This "people virus" is nothing compared to my area's gazillionth wave of our local parvo epidemic, but it's even hard on my Chihuahuas to be stuck inside with us (or on our own land) for so long.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I mean I would keep her on them forever without a single concern too. Heck, _I_ take SSRIs and have no issue with that and I see no reason to ever avoid them or not use them if they're helpful. She's had no real side-effects, no change in energy or personality, no health impacts. 

So 'life sentence' seems really judgmental and harsh to me.

She came off because the cycle was broken for her and she no longer needs them and keeping her on them was unnecessary and that's an extra blood work and 100.00 or so a year that I'm spending for no benefit (ie: not much saved), but if she needed to stay on she could stay on her whole life if she needed and benefit and not get a second thought from me. My biggest regret with her is I waited to put her on them to start with.


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## laurelsmom (Feb 13, 2019)

No judgement was intended.

I'm glad that these meds are able to help so many people and dogs. They may not be for everyone, but this is definitely not the place for that sort of a discussion.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, I mean it is literally a thread about putting a dog on medication and improving their life and was written to combat ignorance and stigma re : medications that leaves dogs suffering because their humans won't get them help they need so. I'd say yes, it is very much the place for this discussion


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## laurelsmom (Feb 13, 2019)

In that case, then you have definitely accomplished your goal as far as Chocolate is concerned and done her a great service.

I am relieved that I am not accidentally behaving like a nasty, mean old troll. Society has changed very quickly, both in accepting the fact that mental illness exists and is no laughing matter and, of course, in developing more effective ways of treating it in both dogs and people.

If my dog needs anxiety meds then she needs anxiety meds. I signed up for that when I chose to adopt her. I need to do research that is going to make me feel feelings in order to make sure that I give her the best treatment that is available for her, and that is going to involve talking to people without being a jerk about it or spouting ignorance and outdated information.

Thank you for helping me to accomplish my own goal.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Long overdue update, but Molly is completely off meds and has been since about April. Her life is a little bit less arousing thanks to the slow down in dog events, but there are still some things and she has had zero issue. The things she learned on meds have stuck.


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