# CRATE TRAINING Ethical?



## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

*Crating your Dog..How much is too much?*

I am reading and educating myself for my future dog and wondering about crate training. 
I see the initial value and that it is a den and safe place for the puppy but at what point is it more of a prison for a dog?
I should of titled this post Crateing Dogs Ethical?

I thought the crate training was to keep puppies safe as well as your belongings and as time goes on allow your dog to wander the house when you are not home.
Listening to people who leave their dogs 6 -13 hours alone in a crate during the work day is that not cruel?
also puppies sleep longer than adult dogs so I can see why being locked up in a crate for an older dog would be very frustrating for him/her.

Just wondering what the goal is.
Do most people eventually let their dogs be uncrated?
I would love to know what the experts think.


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## FridaysMom (May 9, 2010)

I think that most "responsible" dog owners use the crate the way it is suppose to be used. I agree that leaving any dog, no matter the age in a crate for 8 to 12hrs a day is cruel. In my opinion crate training should only be done in a way that it makes the dog learn to feel that the crate is his happy, quiet, safe place. Not a place that he has to go because he is being punished or a place that he fears because he knows that once he is in there it will seem like days before he is let out again.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I actually had an article published last month on the subject. It can be read online here.

http://www.inthefieldmagazine.com/www.inthefieldmagazine.com/In_The_Field_Heartland.html

Page 40


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Both my dogs are crate trained one is 1.5 years and the other is 7months. They both sleep in there at night and go in there when we are not home. I cant trust either of them 100% when I am not around so they get crated. Maggie (the 1.5 year old) has slept all night in my bed and been fine a few times but I prefer her to be crated and she doesnt mind it at all she goes in there on her own when I tell her Kennel...sometimes if she knows I am leaving she needs a treat to be "urged" in.

I am a stay at home mom so most days they are out from morn till night, 3 days a week I take my kids to preschool so the dogs are kenneled when I am gone (3 hours) unless I take them to the park. But I have also gone out for the day and they are in there for 6-8 hours, not very often and not longer than that.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

im not a fan of crates. i find them limiting and i find that they can be a sort of crutch. i prefer other ways. doesnt necessarily make them unethical though...


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Good article Johnny Bandit. I agree.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

I used the crate to house break my new puppy. Now my dogs are only crated when we leave the house for the safety of my cats. They are not in the crate any other time besides when we leave. I have no way to keep the dogs and the cats separate unless I crate them. My dogs eat their supper in their crates and they love being in them. They actually choose to sleep in there during the day when I am home and the crate doors are open. At night they sleep in the bedroom with us with the door closed and the cats out in the rest of the house. 

My puppy is now 10.5 months old and my other dog is almost 2.5 years old. If I could find a way to keep the dogs separate from the cats (other than locking the cats in a room) I would let the dogs roam while we were gone. My boys have high prey drives and when we are around I can stop them from chasing the cats but dogs will be dogs and given the chance to do anything they like but aren't allowed to do they will take that chance.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Yes cats are another reason why my dogs will never be able to be uncrated when we go out. Right now I have two 8ish week kittens and they are caged when I can not watch them but soon they wont be caged at all...and Maggie is a JRT...need I say more


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

my dogs especially Hawkeye LOVES his crate and he can be found in it almost anytime I am on the computer. He just walks into it rustles up the blanket how he likes it and then flops down.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

So for a working person gone from 6 hours (low side) to 9 hours a day + 8 hours at night during sleep the average crate time for a dog would be 14 low end to 17 or 18 high end. 

Do other people leave them in one room where they can roam and leave the crate /bed for them to rest in at will? (this was my idea)

Also if you leave your dog longer than 4 hours do you leave water or will they have to pee?

I realize there are many different living situations out there but from reading this board for about a month there seems to be a lot of dogs out there crated 75% of the time. I didn't know if that was the norm or not....


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I actually had an article published last month on the subject. It can be read online here.
> 
> http://www.inthefieldmagazine.com/www.inthefieldmagazine.com/In_The_Field_Heartland.html
> 
> Page 40


Well written and I agree.

I swaddled my son. Some would say he was confined and it was cruel. I say he felt secure and safe.

Crating to me is akin to swaddling.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

When she was a youngster, Esther's crate was essential to her survival and possibly mine. She was wildly destructive. If you said the word "bed" in any context, she would immediately go to her crate and settle. Eventually, she outgrew the need* and is only crated for transport.

* She indicated this by breaking out three times in 15 minutes. 

Molly was crated for housebreaking purpose only.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

A crate is a tool, it can be used or abused or not. Depends on how you look at it. 

My guys are crated at night, at least the two younger ones are. One I can't trust to not chew and destroy things, and the other won't leave the cat alone or the ball, and nothing's worse than turning over in the middle of the night and having a slobbery tennis ball dropped on your face! During the day they are loose, usually outside in the dog run, or they can come into the mudroom if it's fenced off. We have to get a solid fence for that room though, because the shredder likes to drag things outside where she thinks it's ok to destroy them. And they'll get muddy and run into the house so we limit that activity as well.

And often if it's not so nice outside, they'll want to come in and go into their crates anyway. My cousin used to say how 'nice' it'd be for them to have the freedom of a huge dog run, however when they have the option they'll be inside anyway, even if the xpen is only 2 feet by 2 feet and they're sitting on each other in it, they'll be inside.

Lana


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

kas said:


> So for a working person gone from 6 hours (low side) to 9 hours a day + 8 hours at night during sleep the average crate time for a dog would be 14 low end to 17 or 18 high end.
> 
> Do other people leave them in one room where they can roam and leave the crate /bed for them to rest in at will? (this was my idea)
> 
> ...



No. Full crate training doesn't work for everybody. There are some (I'd have to count myself as one) that say if no one is home THAT MUCH you need an older dog who is housebroken and safe, and still have a safe room for them. And maybe even should consider a different type of animal--cat, bird, fish, that isn't so dependent on interaction.

I work from home so no puppy would be in a crate except at night (with potty breaks then even at the start) and when I run to the store or whatnot. Years ago when I did work, I worked nights, hubby worked days, so SOMEONE was always home, plus my grandmother lived with us, and I had kids (yeah busy house, but made puppy care when both adults worked outside the home easier).

As with anything, crates can be abused, and used inappropriately. However, a dog left home all day is very tricky, and could easily become neglected. That, too, is not in every case, but it could easily happen, crate or no crate.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

A crate is a tool. A hammer is a tool as well. Tools are morally neutral. A hammer can be used to build a house, or to bash somebody's skull in. No hammer ever jumped out of a toolbox and attacked somebody, and no crate ever abused a dog.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> A crate is a tool. A hammer is a tool as well. Tools are morally neutral. A hammer can be used to build a house, or to bash somebody's skull in. No hammer ever jumped out of a toolbox and attacked somebody, and no crate ever abused a dog.


No one (unless I missed something) said CRATES were the reason for cruelty... MISUSE of crates can-be, and your hammer point illustrates that perfectly.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

kas said:


> So for a working person gone from 6 hours (low side) to 9 hours a day + 8 hours at night during sleep the average crate time for a dog would be 14 low end to 17 or 18 high end.
> 
> Do other people leave them in one room where they can roam and leave the crate /bed for them to rest in at will? (this was my idea)
> 
> ...


Look at it this way, Marsh Puppet is absolutely right. Crates can be a godsend, and they can also be a harsh tool. Depends on whoever's using it.

As for your comment about dogs being crate 17 hours a day, it isn't so much as time in the crate that matters, it's time OUTSIDE it. If a dog spends 6-7 hours outside of the crate hiking, being trained, walking, playing with other dogs, I'd say that's a happy dog.

But a dog that's given full run of the house but NEVER brought out for walks or interacted with in a meaningful way has a sad existence indeed.

I crate trained my puppy, but I also had a puppy safe area where I had pee pads and water down. The crate was only ever closed at night. Nowadays the crate is never closed at all. He goes in there whenever he wants to. He has a regular doggie bed and a crate, but most of the time he decides to sleep in his crate at night.

I think that says something about how useful crates can be. If it's used correctly, dogs will learn to love it.


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## LiftBig315 (Jan 9, 2010)

When Moose is super pooped out he prefers to go sleep in his crate (he goes in there without a command). He sleeps in his crate 90% of the time at night, some nights we share the bed. He is also crated when my wife leaves to work, until I get home, which is usually 2 hrs or so.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

lucidity said:


> If it's used correctly, dogs will learn to love it.


not directed at you lucidity..this is just a general comment(im adding disclaimers every time i quote you now lol..no more misunderstands..hopefully. )

but there are exceptions. i have a dog who is basically claustrophobic. she freaks out if put in any enclosure that she cant have a full range of movement in..its not specific to crates. its also harnesses and several other types of restraints. also dogs with SA can sometimes have issues with crates. there are a couple of members here who i have seen pictures of crates totally destroyed by SA dogs.

ive crate trained a fair number of fosters simply because of the fact that whoever might adopt them might also use a crate. Some took to it..some didnt. i dont like using them for my own dogs just because it limits part of the reason i have a dog in the first place. i dont fly and if i did i couldnt take my dogs(pit bulls arent allowed on most airlines) and i am willing to go to what lengths are needed regarding vet stays to avoid use of crating.

when you get a dog there's a lot of things to consider. if you are comfortable using a crate and can do so responsibly..fine...if not there are alternatives.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Scrappy is in his crate at night and when someone isn't home to watch him. When he's not in there, he is curled up next to me (he's a velcro dog!) or we are out doing something (playing in the yard, walking to the park, etc...). When we eat, he puts himself in there! When we sit down, he goes and lays down. The door isn't closed, and he just lays there.

There have been days when we were going to be gone all day, and he's spent that time in the crate. But on those days, he gets a long walk before and after, plus some fetch time, and some snuggles. He's content when we get home..quietly laying or chewing on his chewies. I would leave him out, but he REALLY likes my daughters stuffed animals!

I think that it can be used incorrectly--where the dog is placed in there as punishment or because he's "hyper" (instead of taking him on a walk or playing hard to wear him out).


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Lol, zim. That's funny... but no misunderstandings here!

Actually, I was mostly referring to puppies. It's easier to get them used to crates, I guess. Older dogs are usually more set in their ways already. If I had a rescue, I might not even use a crate. You never know what kind of past they have and whether they've been abused (or crate abused?).

Plus, crate training is usually used to potty trained puppies, from what I know.. so I don't think it's necessary to crate train an older dog who has good bladder/bowel control already.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> when you get a dog there's a lot of things to consider. if you are comfortable using a crate and can do so responsibly..fine...if not there are alternatives.


could you elaborate on alternatives?


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

kas said:


> could you elaborate on alternatives?


The other alternative is usually tethering or getting a puppy safe room or X-pen. With an x-pen/puppy safe room, you have a doggy bed, pee pads (if you're pee pad training), and water in there. Place x-pens on tiled/laminate floor so that messes are easy to clean up.

Tethering only works if you're home most of the day. Basically, you get a long leash and tie it to you, so the pup is always in sight. If it looks like he/she is going to start "going", you immediately interrupt and bring them out to finish their business.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I like crating fine, but none of my dogs have ever been crated. Smalls nearly killed herself after several months of working and by then she was potty trained and not destructive, so I had really no need to crate her. Jonas and Smalls have free range of third floor while we're out, and Jack and Magpie have free range of the fourth.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> not directed at you lucidity..this is just a general comment(im adding disclaimers every time i quote you now lol..no more misunderstands..hopefully. )
> 
> *but there are exceptions. i have a dog who is basically claustrophobic. she freaks out if put in any enclosure that she cant have a full range of movement in..its not specific to crates. its also harnesses and several other types of restraints. also dogs with SA can sometimes have issues with crates. there are a couple of members here who i have seen pictures of crates totally destroyed by SA dogs.*
> 
> ...


Thanks for mentioning these exceptions - I have one here that is also claustrophobic, and have seen a dog with SA have beyond a terrible time . . . fortunately an alternative was decided upon.

Keep in mind that there are some breeds (Tibetan Spaniel being one and the Japanese Chin another) that have been bred for centuries to stay put in a high place and 'keep watch'. They are natural window dogs, like their open spaces, and are much less inclined to be comfortable confined in a den.

My claustrophobe is a Husky.

SOB


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## amdeblaey (Jun 27, 2009)

At first, I was hard bent on crate training-no if's and's or but's about it-if someone asked me, I said yes-no doubt. I've loosened up a little because a lot of it, for me, has to do with trust-and your personal preference. I have 2 labs-obviously chewers, so I didn't trust them as puppies to have a whole house to themselves. I worked first shift, so Patton was in his kennel all night-got up with me in the morning to eat and potty-and back in his kennel for 8 hours. As someone had mentioned before-it's not the time in the crate, it's the time outside the crate-training, going for walks etc. Well that's what I did. I'd come home, and we'd go for a nice long walk, and most days I'd be home the rest of the afternoon. If you ask me now-I couldn't bare the thought of leaving my dogs in the kennel for more then 4 hours-I feel horrible. My older lab does get free roam of the house when we aren't there-but sleeps in his kennel at night. My puppy is in his kennel when we aren't home, and at night-simply because he would destroy the house. When it comes time, I will give him parts of rooms in the house, and work his way up where I can trust him out of his kennel all the time. I'm lucky that I don't have to have a job, so the dogs are out of their kennels 90% of the time. My husband is military, so he can come home after PT, during lunch, and any other breaks they get-and let them out of their kennels if need be. 

Like others have said-it's up to you to be smart about crate training-if you don't want to do it, then section them off in the kitchen or something.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

kas said:


> could you elaborate on alternatives?


it depends on what your situation is, why you might choose to use a crate and the individual temperament of your dog. 

like for me?

i can easily take off a few weeks to potty train a puppy without having to use a crate. when i need to leave pup alone, i have what i call "the kennel room". a small basement room set up specifically to accomodate dogs. 

there's nothing needing an outlet in it so no cords to chew. there's no furniture meant for humans in it so that's not a problem. there's plenty of space and i can leave a bed and a few appropriate toys in there to keep the dog occupied. it also has a running fountain as a water supply. if i DID end up..say i got in a car accident and was unconcious in the hospital..my dog would have water and space to avoid sleeping in her own urine and feces. 

other's use xpens, outdoor kennels and things like that.

its all dependant on a lot of different factors.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally loves his crate.

It would be more cruel to keep him out of it or to take it away completely.= (it's his cozy place, door is open, he can go in or out as he wishes) and, especially when he was fearful, he'd go to it and feel safe, or I'd send him to his crate when he was freaking out and was somewhere else in the house (actually it's how I taught him his "go to your crate" cue).

It was (and still is sometimes) a place where he can go chill, clear his head, and pull himself together.

I don't see how crating/crate training is unethical. 

Abuse of anything is unethical, but then, is it still training? 

Crate ABUSE is unethical. Crate TRAINING is not. That's my view.

I won't ever feel guilty teaching a dog about his/her crate, having him her love their crate, having them stay in the crate if they so choose, or anything of the sort.

I certainly don't feel guilty about Wally going into and loving his and being comfortable in there whether its for 8 minutes or 8 hours.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I have dogs that use crates and dogs that don't....I use crates for many different reasons.

1. I have a multi dog house hold with very different size dogs
2. I have some dogs that can be contained by a door or baby gate
3. I have dogs that can jump a baby gate like it was a crack in the side walk or tear up the trim on a door till she figures out how to open it 
4. I would love to have separate doggy rooms for all my guys but until Daddy Warbucks comes to adopt me ...3 empty spare rooms ain't gonna happen 

the list goes on and on but those are some of the main issues...

Like most said a crate is a tool and used appropriately for the right dogs they can be wonderful


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Papilove said:


> No one (unless I missed something) said CRATES were the reason for cruelty... MISUSE of crates can-be, and your hammer point illustrates that perfectly.


The original question was: "CRATE TRAINING Ethical?". The phrasing of the question implies that there is/may be something inherently abusive about crates. Or why ask the question at all?


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> The original question was: "CRATE TRAINING Ethical?". The phrasing of the question implies that there is/may be something inherently abusive about crates. Or why ask the question at all?


Please reread my original question and responses. 


I am asking questions and the experience of this community based on the reading I have done. If you read the rest of my post you will see that I said I can see where the crate is a good thing as well.

For many people, the idea of an animal being left in a small space for many hours is a new one at least for me. The dogs I knew of growing up were not crated I never heard of the phrase until I came here so this is all new to me. The feeling I was getting from many posts were that dogs were crated most of the time..Apparently, it's an individual thing.
I am exploring and researching the care and training needed before getting my dog. I am trying to learn and then decide how I want to proceed. I think that is a good thing don't you?


If I could I would of changed the title of the post to something like 
"What is considered excessive Crateing of Dogs" or something to that effect but you cannot do that once you post at least I cannot figure it out.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

kas said:


> I am reading and educating myself for my future dog and wondering about crate training.
> I see the initial value and that it is a den and safe place for the puppy but at what point is it more of a prison for a dog?
> I should of titled this post Crateing Dogs Ethical?
> 
> ...


Tag is a year old and is still crated at night. (I don't really get into the "Use Mom's Face As a Trampoline Bounce House" at 2:30 in the morning...) I'm lucky in my situation, because I work from home and live at work. I also cheat; once my puppies show me they can hold it (by rushing outside and peeing the second they hit grass), I switch to a larger cage. My dogs also have water in their crates over night (never been an issue with gorging water). 
Dude hasn't been crated over night since he was a puppy until Tag hit puberty, and Dude happily hoisted his leg on my kitchen chair right in front of me. I got out a crate large enough that would comfortably house 2 to 3 dogs his size and set him up a bed. Apparently, he loves it, because he seeks it out. He's space sensitive, and usually slept on the floor after I spent an hour tossing and turning, and the cats went from this spot to that spot on my bed. I think he just got annoyed being bumped and stepped on. He seems to love the fact he can sleep and not have to worry about all that.
I randomly crate my dogs when I'm home. I don't want them to learn that crate time is automatic alone time. I want them to be comfortable, happy, and learn that sometimes it's just nice to chill out and relax. We own a boarding kennel here, and boarding dogs who know about confinement are a billion times better off than dogs who have never had to experience any sort of confinement. If my dogs ever have to be left in an emergency, I want them at least comfortable with their "house"


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I crate train. I don't abuse crates. My dogs go to shows and stay in hotels when we compete. They travel with me when I visit family and friends. Somedays, my dogs are not crated at all. Some days, they could be in for 6 hours. 

When I worked 12 hour shifts and would be gone for 13 hours at a time, I put up full-sized kennels in my home and hired a dogwalker for 1/2 way through my absence. I hated that. 

Because I have pit bulls, I chose not to leave them out loose together just in case. They all get along, but I would hate to come home and see that they got into a scrap.

Crates make my life better and allow my dogs to go with me almost everythere. They don't stress in the least and just sleep and chill when crated. I think they are great tools. I also think they are "ethical."


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Wally loves his crate.
> 
> It would be more cruel to keep him out of it or to take it away completely.= (it's his cozy place, door is open, he can go in or out as he wishes) and, especially when he was fearful, he'd go to it and feel safe, or I'd send him to his crate when he was freaking out and was somewhere else in the house (actually it's how I taught him his "go to your crate" cue).
> 
> ...


My favorite analogy is that a pillow isn't a dangerous object until you plan a dramatic smothering scene...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i think they are conditionally ethical.

i keep pit bulls too and i never leave them alone together.

ok...this may sound like its bashing crate people but its not...its just a statement.

im a little defensive. i get bashed for NOT using a crate. Ive been turned down by rescues because i dont want to use a crate. 

crate training is not a requirement for dog ownership. its an option.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> I crate train. I don't abuse crates. My dogs go to shows and stay in hotels when we compete. They travel with me when I visit family and friends. Somedays, my dogs are not crated at all. Some days, they could be in for 6 hours.
> 
> When I worked 12 hour shifts and would be gone for 13 hours at a time, I put up full-sized kennels in my home and hired a dogwalker for 1/2 way through my absence. I hated that.
> 
> ...


It's my frame of mind that crating dogs for hours a day is fine IF they get real, quality time with their owners as well (like you traveling with your dogs, training, and competing). I don't think dogs who are properly crate trained resent being confined. What bothers me is the handful of people I know IRL who crate their dogs from 8am-5pm, come home, feed the dog, maybe give the dog a pat on the head or a 15 minute walk, and then back in the crate the dog goes from 8pm til 6am. That IMO is misuse.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I think it's perfectly ethical because a lot of dogs LOVE thier crates and will go in there themselves when they are sleepy or wants some peace and quiet. I only use it when the dog isn't completely reliable around the house in terms of pottying. Right now, I let my dog do whatever she wants without being crated but she will often go into the crate herself and just lie down there to sleep. It's much better than letting them go everywhere and getting into dangerous things like chewing on sharp plastic, wood, etc. For their safety and our sanity, I 100% support crate training.


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## FridaysMom (May 9, 2010)

This may not be a popular opinion, but I am going to voice it anyway. I see dogs the same way I see children. I waited until I was able to stay home and raise my children to have them. I feel the same should be done with a dog. I do not understand the concept of desparately needing a dog, for your human need to have one, only to leave it locked up the entire day alone. It makes me sad....................


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i think they are conditionally ethical.
> 
> i keep pit bulls too and i never leave them alone together.
> 
> ...


Agreed. The dog room you posted about wasn't "good enough" for the rescues? ::scratching head::


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I think that crate training for housebreaking, management etc IS ethical PROVIDING:
The dog/pup has been properly and positively introduced to the crate.
The dog/pup is given appropriate "free time" and is fulfilled during the free time..whether that be training sessions, free play, visits and socialization with others or any other appropriate outlet.
That long crate periods are broken up by a dogwalker/petsitter visit. 

Once my pup (Cracker) was housebroken I stopped using it as confinement but I still use it occasionally, in the car or at events that she cannot participate in. I believe a crate trained/familiar dog is much less stressed for travelling, boarding, grooming and vet hospital stays and that it is worthwhile to work on adapting your dog to one simply for these reasons.

The only reason I would NOT use a crate would be for severe separation anxiety as mentioned before.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

kas said:


> For many people, the idea of an animal being left in a small space for many hours is a new one at least for me. The dogs I knew of growing up were not crated I never heard of the phrase until I came here so this is all new to me. The feeling I was getting from many posts were that dogs were crated most of the time..Apparently, it's an individual thing.
> I am exploring and researching the care and training needed before getting my dog. I am trying to learn and then decide how I want to proceed. I think that is a good thing don't you?


Like anything else, excessive crate time depends on the individual dog. When my Golden was a pup, I sometimes thought he was a Jack Russell in a past life. More than a couple of hours crate time, and he acted like I was killing him. Other dogs will sleep all day and not even miss you while you are at work.

I work nights so I did a lot with my pup. I'd take him for a couple of hours running and swimming when I got home from work, and only needed to crate him while I slept for a couple of hours. When I got up from my nap, we'd do it again. If I left him out of the crate while I slept, he would have rearranged the entire house. I've had other dogs that could be trusted out of the crate as soon as they were house trained.

The biggest part of successfully raising a dog is selecting the right one for your lifestyle, or adjusting your lifestyle to fit the dog you selected.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> Thanks for mentioning these exceptions - I have one here that is also claustrophobic, and have seen a dog with SA have beyond a terrible time . . . fortunately an alternative was decided upon.
> 
> Keep in mind that there are some breeds (Tibetan Spaniel being one and the Japanese Chin another) that have been bred for centuries to stay put in a high place and 'keep watch'. They are natural window dogs, like their open spaces, and are much less inclined to be comfortable confined in a den.
> 
> ...


My claustrophobe is a cat, moms cat...  He's so claustrophobic that any form of restraint (crates, rooms with shut doors, picking him up, restraining him, etc) sends him into a panic. 
I didn't know that about Tibbies or Chins...interesting! (FTR, papillons were originally bird dogs...they think they can fly )


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

I do not like the overuse of crating that we see today. If you can not offer a dog safety in your home, where he has room to move, then you probably should not have a dog. Sorry, that will sound harsh but I firmly believe it. Mind you, I am NOT referring to those that crate for a purpose for short and temporary periods.

I believe that a dog owner has a responsibility that a dogs needs are met adequately and we can dress it up all we like, but the continual and regular crating of dogs when their owners go out is unneccessary and borderline cruel.

Let your dog be a dog. Let it sniff the air, investigate and play. Let it roll in the grass, lay in the sun and chase birds. If they have to be inside while you are gone, at the very least allow them a safe room where they can rub their backs in pleasure on a rug, roll and chase a ball, and stretch their legs and walk around.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

kas said:


> So for a working person gone from 6 hours (low side) to 9 hours a day + 8 hours at night during sleep the average crate time for a dog would be 14 low end to 17 or 18 high end.
> 
> Do other people leave them in one room where they can roam and leave the crate /bed for them to rest in at will? (this was my idea)
> 
> ...


the average dog sleeps 16-18 hours a day.

my dogs are not crated at night. Ocationally one will be crated while I'm gone, but crating is mostly for housebreaking and potty training in our house.
A dog shouldn't have to pee after 4 hours if it is let out to potty before going in.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

FKAPRSOA said:


> I do not like the overuse of crating that we see today. If you can not offer a dog safety in your home, where he has room to move, then you probably should not have a dog. Sorry, that will sound harsh but I firmly believe it. Mind you, I am NOT referring to those that crate for a purpose for short and temporary periods..


If you've seen a dog climb the counters of the kitchen and raid the cupboards after chewing the locks/handles off when you're not home then you'll know how important it is to own a crate 

I don't believe in crating more than 12 hrs a day though unless it's for puppy house training. I also don't like crating at night. I think dogs should be able to have water at night and move around a bit if they want so I always leave the crate door open during the night but I use a baby-gate to section her off in a different area. Honestly, I never crate now. I just like it for potty training and general training like not chewing, not drinking out of the toilet and such. I probably only use it a lot for the first 1-2 years of life.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Baby puppies here learn about crates early. Crates are nap areas, play areas, places to climb in and over and play.

Later as they grow crates are nap areas, places to eat your dinner, and a place to sleep at night.

Which ever puppy I keep, mostly will sleep crated for the first year or so of their life.

My dogs ride in crates in my van, they eat their dinners in crates, and sometimes if they come in from outdoors wet or really dirty, they go in the crate until I can clean them up.

I am uncomfortable leaving a dog crated during the day for more than 5 hours without a break to stretch their legs and relieve themselves. I prefer 4 or less. On occasion my dogs need to stay in a crate longer, such as at dog shows, or when traveling. I still like to see to it that a dog has the chance to walk about, stretch, relieve themselves, and interact outside the crate at least every several hours.

Having multiple dogs, along with traveling and competing with my dogs, it would be difficult without crates. I have always been very conscious of the time my dogs spend in crates. I make sure they have the exercise and enrichment opportunities they need when they are being crated.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

FKAPRSOA said:


> I do not like the overuse of crating that we see today. If you can not offer a dog safety in your home, where he has room to move, then you probably should not have a dog. Sorry, that will sound harsh but I firmly believe it. Mind you, I am NOT referring to those that crate for a purpose for short and temporary periods.
> 
> I believe that a dog owner has a responsibility that a dogs needs are met adequately and we can dress it up all we like, but the continual and regular crating of dogs when their owners go out is unneccessary and borderline cruel.
> 
> Let your dog be a dog. Let it sniff the air, investigate and play. Let it roll in the grass, lay in the sun and chase birds. If they have to be inside while you are gone, at the very least allow them a safe room where they can rub their backs in pleasure on a rug, roll and chase a ball, and stretch their legs and walk around.


I have to disagree, because no matter how spotlessly clean my apartment is, my dog is still a danger to himself when left alone because of his SA. So a crate is absolutely necessary. His crate is also a safe place and he panics much less when left alone inside of his crate than he would when left out free. 

As far as needing to stretch out and roll around when left alone, I don't know about every dog, but I do know that 80% of the time that Basil is inside of our home he's spending curled up inside of his soft sided travel carrier with the door open, which is even smaller than his crate!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> Let your dog be a dog. Let it sniff the air, investigate and play. Let it roll in the grass, lay in the sun and chase birds. If they have to be inside while you are gone, at the very least allow them a safe room where they can rub their backs in pleasure on a rug, roll and chase a ball, and stretch their legs and walk around.


It would be cruel to leave my dogs outside where I live. They would likely be coyote lunch in a few days. 

Dogs sleep a lot, where they sleep isn't that big a deal as long as they're comfortable.

I don't think I crate too much. Most days it's 4 hours or under and is split into two sessions of only 2 hours. but there have been days where it's been 10 hours. Life happens sometimes.

With Mia confining is a necessity. This was reconfirmed today. I left her in my room for 10 minutes alone and came back to what looked like a tornado hit my room. I've tried a 'safe' room with her. No problem, she just rips out the flooring.  In an x-pen she escapes. She can climb over a gate. She can actually open a kennel too. The destructive power of a 6 lb dog often amazes me... So lately I've been padlocking them both in an extra large kennel together with an extra lock on the door. It's the only thing that A) keeps Summer's SA under control (she can't be crated alone) and B) prevents Mia from ruining my house. Neither of them sleep in a crate at night, they both sleep on my bed. 

My past dogs were loose in the house with no problem but some dogs just cannot ever be left to their own devices.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

FKAPRSOA said:


> I do not like the overuse of crating that we see today. If you can not offer a dog safety in your home, where he has room to move, then you probably should not have a dog. Sorry, that will sound harsh but I firmly believe it. Mind you, I am NOT referring to those that crate for a purpose for short and temporary periods.
> 
> I believe that a dog owner has a responsibility that a dogs needs are met adequately and we can dress it up all we like, but the continual and regular crating of dogs when their owners go out is unneccessary and borderline cruel.
> 
> Let your dog be a dog. Let it sniff the air, investigate and play. Let it roll in the grass, lay in the sun and chase birds. If they have to be inside while you are gone, at the very least allow them a safe room where they can rub their backs in pleasure on a rug, roll and chase a ball, and stretch their legs and walk around.


My dog doesn't do any of those things when I'm home and observing him. I have no reason to believe he is more inclined to do them while I'm gone.

I don't crate Alvin because he doesn't require it, but I work for eight hours a day and I know he sleeps for seven and a half of them. (That first half hour is spent getting breakfast out of his kibble dispenser.) What difference would it make if he were sleeping in a crate versus sleeping on his bed by the door?


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I agree with what everyone said on page one about crates being a "tool"... Just like someone's hammer analogy, the same can be said about training collars... Just my opinion.

Donatello is crate-trained. I very rarely, only on certain occasions do I feel I "have to" use it.

Times I do use it:
Sometimes when guests come over
When maintenance workers come over for a project
For loud, continuous noises that scare him

If I had other animals, another dog or a cat, I would most definitely crate him while I was out.

I've said before he "loves" his crate, which he actually used to "love" it, back when he was a lot more skittish. But now that he has very little to get scared about around the house, he uses it on his own a lot less...

I have never, nor do I ever foresee him doing something where I use it as a "punishment"... Not that doing that is wrong, but if Donatello doesn't do something "right", I usually just correct him then and there, versus coaxing him into his crate in my bedroom by which time he will have probably forgot all about what he did wrong and focus on, "Is she going somewhere without me?" lol


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

I think it depends on how you use it. When I was still having classes my Shih Tzu probably spent 14-16 hours in his crate a day (not consecutive) but 6 hours for classes and 8 hours when i'm asleep on average. I think its better then putting him outside in an Alabama summer or letting him urinate and defecate in one of my rooms. 

Bones on the other hand is 100% house trained and I leave him in my bedroom when I'm gone. He can walk around, lie on my bed, or look out the window and lament with the neighbors dogs.

Both dogs get walks and time in the backyard. I think it's perfectly fine. Dogs sleep most of that time anyways.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I have to disagree, because no matter how spotlessly clean my apartment is, my dog is still a danger to himself when left alone because of his SA. So a crate is absolutely necessary. His crate is also a safe place and he panics much less when left alone inside of his crate than he would when left out free.


for your dog sure...other SA dogs will hurt themselves in a crate trying to escape. Ive had two fosters like that. One who ended up with multiple puncture wounds from attempting (and succeeding) to chew his way out of the crate..the other lost an eye for the same reason.

and i know one girl whose dog died for the same reason. he killed himself trying to escape from the crate.

its situational.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I think crate training can be a wonderful thing; it didn't really work for us. For one, I didn't try hard enough, and two, he would literally bark the whole time he was in it (if I was home, when I left the house, I'm sure he just slept... it was just when he KNEW I was home) but it was good for potty training during the first 3 weeks, because I knew he wasn't sneaking off and going somewhere. But, we moved up to an ex-pen after about 3-4 weeks of the crate, then we moved to him being locked in my bedroom. By 5 months old, he pretty much had free roam and he's proved to have been a great dog for it. He's never once had an accident (while we're not home) and never got into anything, tore anything up, chewed anything. He literally just goes to sleep when we leave.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> for your dog sure...other SA dogs will hurt themselves in a crate trying to escape. Ive had two fosters like that. One who ended up with multiple puncture wounds from attempting (and succeeding) to chew his way out of the crate..the other lost an eye for the same reason.
> 
> and i know one girl whose dog died for the same reason. he killed himself trying to escape from the crate.
> 
> its situational.


Yep, that's been established. I wasn't trying to make any generalizations, just explaining what works for me.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

I prefer not to use a crate at all if I can help it, but I am not completely against crates. 

If I were to get a puppy, I would likely go the x-pen route if I had the room, but if not, I would use the crate until I trusted he/she could be left alone in the house without causing trouble. 

I do think being in a crate for 9 hours a day and then 8 hours to sleep is too much, but if it will keep the puppy safe, and the pup is exercised and played with enough, then I guess it's better than nothing.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Do x-pens actually hold most dogs in? I've NEVER had dogs that would stay in them...lol

The other day I was gone and my dad had Mia and Summer. He locked all five in his x-pen and used a cord as an extra lock on the door. I got home and was greeted by all five at the door. 
I called, "Dad, did you not put the dogs up?" 
"Oh no, I did..." 
"Well... they were all out."

I looked over at the door and it was wide open. 

All I can say is when you have a Mia type dog... you get creative. Mia opens pens either through the main door or wiggles her way out somehow with it still locked. (I had to watch her to figure that out) Summer is a climber and will readily climb over a gate or a pen. She can jump right out the x-pen.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

is why you get one with a top lol


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> is why you get one with a top lol


That didn't deter Mia at all.


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> If you've seen a dog climb the counters of the kitchen and raid the cupboards after chewing the locks/handles off when you're not home then you'll know how important it is to own a crate


I own a crate, several in fact.  I don't agree with the overuse of them though as we see today. Personally, I find that it is laziness on the owner's part. It seems easier to put them in a crate rather than deal with the behaviour problem. 

Obviously, there will be behaviours that crate training is neccessary for, and where crate training is used as a tool to help manage those behaviours.

I haven't an aversion to crates, just to the overuse that I commonly hear and see in this current day.



> I don't believe in crating more than 12 hrs a day though unless it's for puppy house training. I also don't like crating at night. I think dogs should be able to have water at night and move around a bit if they want so I always leave the crate door open during the night but I use a baby-gate to section her off in a different area. Honestly, I never crate now. I just like it for potty training and general training like not chewing, not drinking out of the toilet and such. I probably only use it a lot for the first 1-2 years of life.


And this is exactly how I would also utilise a crate. I also use baby gates.



Nargle said:


> I have to disagree, because no matter how spotlessly clean my apartment is, my dog is still a danger to himself when left alone because of his SA. So a crate is absolutely necessary. His crate is also a safe place and he panics much less when left alone inside of his crate than he would when left out free.


Obviously, yours is an exception and the crate is being used in a situation that is probably reasonable and appropriate. 



> As far as needing to stretch out and roll around when left alone, I don't know about every dog, but I do know that 80% of the time that Basil is inside of our home he's spending curled up inside of his soft sided travel carrier with the door open, which is even smaller than his crate!


That may be so, although unless you have filmed him you really can't know. However, the difference is the option that he has. To be honest, I am almost 100% positive that all my dogs spend the majority of the day sleeping too, but if they choose to lay in the sun they can. If they chose to have a play, they can.



Laurelin said:


> It would be cruel to leave my dogs outside where I live. They would likely be coyote lunch in a few days.


Obviously this again would be a scenario where a dog couldn't be left outside. We do not have such wild animals in Australia however, and I would think that not every state in the US has coyotes either.



> Dogs sleep a lot, where they sleep isn't that big a deal as long as they're comfortable.
> 
> I don't think I crate too much. Most days it's 4 hours or under and is split into two sessions of only 2 hours. but there have been days where it's been 10 hours. Life happens sometimes.
> 
> ...


I am always amazed by the number of dogs I hear of that have sever behaviour issues and separation anxiety. 

Is there a remote possibility that we are experiencing this high number of behaviours issues partly due to the way we now treat our canine friends?

Edited my last bit because I was being very dumb and not reading what was actually written.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wouldnt with any of my dogs either..was sort of joking.

ive seen some interesting small dog alternatives. one guy who kept little hunting terriers...he had house tunnels with doors that could be shut. they ran the length of the house.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

FKAPRSOA said:


> So, your actual reason for crating him is what? Convenience, behaviour, belief system?





FilleBelle said:


> My dog doesn't do any of those things when I'm home and observing him. I have no reason to believe he is more inclined to do them while I'm gone.
> 
> I don't crate Alvin because he doesn't require it, but I work for eight hours a day and I know he sleeps for seven and a half of them. (That first half hour is spent getting breakfast out of his kibble dispenser.) What difference would it make if he were sleeping in a crate versus sleeping on his bed by the door?


Did that answer your question?


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Did that answer your question?


Yes, sorry. My apologies.  I was editing my response when you were posting this. Sorry, a momentary lapse of stupidity!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Zim, her method is literally to exploit the weak spots on the pen where it latches together and then to create a hole big enough to wiggle her 6 lb self out. 



FKAPRSOA said:


> Obviously this again would be a scenario where a dog couldn't be left outside. We do not have such wild animals in Australia however, and I would think that not every state in the US has coyotes either.


They're very common in a lot of the US. My neighbors have had a large dog attacked by coyotes in their fence. It happens quite a lot, especially with small dogs. 

Personally unless I had a great fence, lived in the middle of nowhere and had a separate dog run inside the fence, I am uncomfortable with leaving a dog outside alone. I understand most people aren't, but I had a dog poisoned in a secure yard in a nice neighborhood. I am always outside if my dogs are as a result. It's not something I would risk again. 



> I am always amazed by the number of dogs I hear of that have sever behaviour issues and separation anxiety.
> 
> Is there a remote possibility that we are experiencing this high number of behaviours issues partly due to the way we now treat our canine friends?


My dog (and Nargle's) both came with SA as adults. I have no idea why my dog has SA. I actually don't think MORE dogs have behavior problems, I just think people are actually recognizing them instead of just yelling about this 'dumb dog'. People are starting to understand why dogs behave the way they do.


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## Dreadog (Jun 12, 2009)

Well, we are some of those horrible owners who leave their dog in a crate all day. When we got Hoku I was only working 1/2 time, but when she turned about 8 months both my husband and I had to go back to work full time. From about 4 months (when we got her) until 8 months, she only spent the night in the crate and occasional time during the day. Come September of last year, she started spending between 8-16 hours a day in the crate, 8 hours at night and 8 hours during the day. 

We tried baby gating her, we tried the X-pen, but it didn't work. While she s fully potty trained, when left alone for long periods she does destroy things. In January we stopped crating her at night, and if I can arrange to come home in the middle of the day to offer her a break, we sometimes leave her loose during the day, but loose for 8 hours straight during the day has NOT worked out for us.

Sometimes I feel bad having her crated all day, and really I hope to be able to leave her loose. In an ideal world, she would not be crated as much. I even thought about rehoming her; but, when I think of all the dogs who are treated much worse then as Hoku, I don't feel as bad. She gets 3 walks a day, good food, veterinary care, training, and a family that loves her. If the worse thing that happens to her in her life is that she spends 8 hours a day in a crate, that is not too bad.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Somewhat off-topic, but it relates to why I'd sooner crate, and never leave a dog outside unsupervised.



Laurelin said:


> They're very common in a lot of the US. My neighbors have had a large dog attacked by coyotes in their fence. It happens quite a lot, especially with small dogs.


I had a teacher in high-school just a couple years ago, that had her poodle snatched from her front-yard by a coyote... And she lived in the middle of an old historical downtown district!


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> They're very common in a lot of the US. My neighbors have had a large dog attacked by coyotes in their fence. It happens quite a lot, especially with small dogs.


Wow, I really don't know much about them but they sound like a problem for you guys.




> My dog (and Nargle's) both came with SA as adults. I have no idea why my dog has SA. I actually don't think MORE dogs have behavior problems, I just think people are actually recognizing them instead of just yelling about this 'dumb dog'. People are starting to understand why dogs behave the way they do.


Yes, that also could be a definite possibility. To me though, it seems we have more as well as just noticing it more. I don;t know of any studies on it either, but it would be interesting to see. I am a big believer in the theory that anthromorphising our pets is causing major issues.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

deege39 said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but it relates to why I'd sooner crate, and never leave a dog outside unsupervised.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a teacher in high-school just a couple years ago, that had her poodle snatched from her front-yard by a coyote... And she lived in the middle of an old historical downtown district!


Coyotes have attacked large dogs, and killed many small dogs in my area. It's no uncommon for a coyote to be seen in town. I've seen them out here, and a few times Auz has hit the fence when it's dark out, barking like he's seeing something he finds threatening. I've also seen fox here as well, not sure if they would kill a small dog or not.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

FKAPRSOA said:


> Wow, I really don't know much about them but they sound like a problem for you guys.


It's not just yotes here either. We have owls that are big enough to take toy sized dogs too (not to mention the bobcats, and occasional cougar) But you can hear coyotes howling most nights. I see them very often in the fields next to us, especially when the calves are being born.


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## FridaysMom (May 9, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> It's not just yotes here either. We have owls that are big enough to take toy sized dogs too (not to mention the bobcats, and occasional cougar) But you can hear coyotes howling most nights. I see them very often in the fields next to us, especially when the calves are being born.


Where in Oklahoma are you? The reason I ask is that I was born there and have a lot of family there. I dont meet very many sooners here in Florida! Lol!


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## FridaysMom (May 9, 2010)

deege39 said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but it relates to why I'd sooner crate, and never leave a dog outside unsupervised.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a teacher in high-school just a couple years ago, that had her poodle snatched from her front-yard by a coyote... And she lived in the middle of an old historical downtown district!


Lol, I am thread jacking all over the place here! I saw where you are from and wanted to say Hi! I grew up in Lawrenceville! Just right down the road! I use to spend my entire weekends at the Gwinnett County Mall in Duluth as a teenager. That was a LONG time ago! Lol!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

FridaysMom said:


> Where in Oklahoma are you? The reason I ask is that I was born there and have a lot of family there. I dont meet very many sooners here in Florida! Lol!


Just a ways north of OKC.


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## FridaysMom (May 9, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Just a ways north of OKC.


Aw! I am from Bartlesville. It is about 30min north of Tulsa. I grew up in Georgia, but I will always be a sooner girl at heart!


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Coyotes to my knowledge are everywhere in N.A, in cities, urban areas to the country. They killed my neighbors GSD a couple of years ago. Many reports of them going over fences to kill dogs of all sizes. And as already mention, there are big cats, bears and nasty snakes.

As for crating, Yep I do when we are not home. I have jrts that although they do get along great the breed is known to fight and same sex aggression can be a huge problem. Now having said that I could and use to leave a couple of dogs loose when we were gone until I hear this:

A fellow breeder of Jrts went to town for a couple of hours, husband was at work. When she came home their road was blocked because a house was on fire. The house had burned to the ground, it was their home. Every dog (they had 10 I believe) was safe because a neighbor kicked in the back door and removed every dog in their crates before the fire department even got there. Since then all my dogs are crated when we are not at home, crates are near a door and under a window, with a sign saying where they are and to save them.
Even if they are crated for 8 hours (which doesn't happen very often) in very large over sized crates, they are loose for 16 hrs and sleep in our beds at night. They too spend most of their days sleeping on the sofa, dog beds, in open crates if they want and I have one dog that likes to sleep in the shower


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## EarthMonkey (Nov 14, 2009)

Kage is crate trained. At about 7 months we started letting him hang out in the kitchen when we were gone and at night. We started noticing he seemed a lot more stressed once we were doing that. We went back to having him sleep in his crate and he went back to being calm again. We kept letting him hang out in the kitchen if we were not at home during the day.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> My favorite analogy is that a pillow isn't a dangerous object until you plan a dramatic smothering scene...


LOL

Yeah, that would be one of the probably a dozen ways a pillow could be used unethically! 


Also to bark in on some other things:

I would agree that there aren't necessarily more dogs with SA and what not. Just more awareness of them and less "stupid dogs" as was said.

Crates, conditionally ethical? Optional? Sounds like 90% of everything else involving dogs 

Wally could run the house if he wanted. Once he actually did explore around (shocked me). He knows how to open all the doors in the house (except the patio door, unless there's a crack, and the front door he can't open) and the crate door is open. He just...chooses to nap instead. I think those 7 hours and the overnight time is the only good sleep he gets without me pounding his brain trying to teach him one thing or another. 

Coyotes?? Nothing like that (I don't think!) around here. Closest to "wildlife" I've run into were some deer and the year a possum decided to call our yard home. Oh and a rabbit or two. Do squirrels count?


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

FridaysMom said:


> This may not be a popular opinion, but I am going to voice it anyway. I see dogs the same way I see children. I waited until I was able to stay home and raise my children to have them. I feel the same should be done with a dog. I do not understand the concept of desparately needing a dog, for your human need to have one, only to leave it locked up the entire day alone. It makes me sad....................


ROFLMAO What you're saying is that you feel people should not have children OR dogs if they work! 

You choose to stay at home and not work. That's great for you. Me? I work, not only to support myself AND my dogs and cat, but because I prefer to be active in a field where I can, and do make a difference, and get paid for it. My dogs often accompany me to work, frequently offering their (unofficial) therapeutic presense to stressed clients. I have dogs because I choose to, and I can. Not because I have a "desperate need for a dog," but because I enjoy having them as family members. So don't feel sad for my dogs, because they probably have a more active and interesting life and lifestyle than you do.

I was bored stiff not working, even once I had children (2). They turned out to be fabulous (and very interesting) women, both of whom are independent and self-sufficient, work in the medical field, and have dogs and cats of their own, too!


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

kas said:


> *If I could I would of changed the title of the post* to something like
> "What is considered excessive Crateing of Dogs" or something to that effect but you cannot do that once you post at least I cannot figure it out.


If you click on the "Edit" button in your thread post, then click on "Go Advanced"...it will take you to the page that will allow you to change your thread title...

Back to topic...I LOVE M.M.'s analogy of the hammer example!! 

I have a friend who "mentally" crates her dog to its bed. Literally. She doesn't let the dog "off" of its bed...I find it unnerving. Hence, I really don't visit her house much. Her dog spends around 75% of its day in its bed. She uses the term "house breaking" to explain this...but, her dog is now 3-4 yrs. old. Weird I say...


ETA: I "personally" think that if someone is using a crate when they ARE at home, that they are using the crate as a "babysitter", meaning that they don't trust their dog/s for whatever their reasons are (I certaintly don't trust mine, but..every minute they are loose, is a chance for me to catch them being "naughty", & get the chance to train). I think that when this is being done, they(people) are missing out on valuable chances for training their dog/s. Dogs need to have chances to "screw up" & make mistakes...THATS when & how you train them to know what is acceptable behavior & whats not.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I have always used crates, we have an assortment of sizes in the basement. My 4yr old pbgv is crated when we are gone and at night. He's the kind of dog that if left loose, I'd be a nervous wreck, wondering what he was getting into. I'm still waiting for him to outgrow his puppy stage. He's pretty reactive to the outside world and I don't need neighbor complaints.
Our ten year old sheltie doesn't need to be crated but he is, for his safety: the 13ish year old sheltie is a true bitch of a dog and once lacerated his rectum, requiring an ER vet visit. The ten yr old was crated as a pup, he loves his crate and he can sometimes be found in the smaller crate!
If I left the dogs loose and had a camera up, I'd bet dollars to donuts they all slept, except for the one who'd be reactive to the outside world. If they're going to sleep anyway, why not make everyone/everything safe? I have a crate that's too big for him, he left his housebreaking crate a long time ago.
I also only work a 4.5hr shift, less than five minutes from home so they're not crated very long


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> It's not just yotes here either. We have owls that are big enough to take toy sized dogs too (not to mention the bobcats, and occasional cougar) But you can hear coyotes howling most nights. I see them very often in the fields next to us, especially when the calves are being born.


we're in the pacific northwest...

we have hawks and other birds of prey, along with cougar and bear that come to our homes....

for those with smaller dogs...outside is not always an acceptable option...especially if it gets hot and the dog is brachycephalic....

we rescued bubba the pug -- he'd been cruelly cabled to a crate for most of the two years he was on this earth.

to me, that is a cruel and unethical use of crating.

however.

he was not house trained nor was he socialised.

we did use a crate to house train him. we used the crate for sleeping. as he progressed in his training, we used the crate less and less. the goal was for him to be out of his crate. it had to be earned. the more civilised he became, the less time he was in his crate or tethered to me.

we combined crate training and tethering, since i do work from home.

when he stopped peeing in the house for two months straight, he was crated only when we were not home and that's only because he scratches on doors and eats blankets. that is not safe for him and i can't afford to buy that many blankets.

crate training can be useful. just as i would never give my three year old son the run of the house...nor would i give my pug the run of the house. my ten year old corgi mix? she can do what she wants.....and the only reason she is now confined with the pug is because she taunts him. so now they are in a two dog crate and they keep each other company for the four or less hours that i may not be here...in my head, i believe they should not be alone..they should keep each other company...


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## swilliams (Jun 24, 2009)

My dog is crated when we are at work -- anywhere from 6-9 hours a day. He gets lots of walk- and playtime when we are home. When we first got him, he was crated at night as well, but now that he's older and we can trust him more, we leave him out at night. He almost never leaves the bedroom, though. He loves his crate. When he knows I am about to leave for work, he runs up the stairs ahead of me to get in his crate. That might have something to do with the peanut butter kong he knows he's getting, though. He does sleep and play in his crate at times when we're home.


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

i don't believe crate training is unethical, however i am a subscriber to "convenient theories for me" magazine 

i crate my dog when i am at work. she is in her crate from about 8-5:30. no i don't think it is abusive. she gets plenty of exercise and attention when out of the crate and yes, believe it or not, she likes her crate. when i go to put her in it in the morning she is standing by my bedroom door wagging her tail like a maniac. she can't wait to go it (i guess the peanut buttery kongs dont hurt) on short errands, i leave her run loose in my apartment. when i come home, i find her in her crate anyways. its comforting for her. its her place to go when i am not around. 

so no i dont think it is unethical.

i think it becomes problematic when a dog that is uncomfortable or fearful of a crate is forced in. or when a dog does not receive the proper exercise and activity outside of the crate.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

We crate our dogs. Not our grown boxer (3.5 years). He's been out of his crate for about 2 years. He's not even remotely destructive, so I trust him.

Our hound mix Abbie gets crated when we aren't home. Some days (it's rare) she is in her crate from 9am-5pm. She seems to like her crate, esp cause she is a nervous dog, so I think it is a safe place for her.

Now that I'm out of school and currently not working, they are rarely in their crate. In the past week, Abbie has even begun sleeping at night. So she just goes in the crate for a few hours a day tops, most days, she's only in there to eat her meals though. 

Murphy likes his crate too. He's always snoozing in it lol. He's a big lazy frenchie though, so he doesn't need a whole lot of exercise and is pretty low key.

He also gets his meals in his crate. Cooper (the boxer) is the only one who doesn't get his meals there, well, cause he doesn't even have a crate anymore since Abbie uses his old one.

When they aren't in their crate, they are playing/wrestling with each other, both inside and outside. We try to let Abbie & Coop out for half an hour a night to run and play with each other, and they REALLY get their "yayas" out! We also try to take them for a mile walk as much as possible, at least a few times a week, I'm going to try every night to do it starting this week. 

They are also always playing with their toys, cuddling with one of us, etc.

I don't think we do the best job we can do, but I also think it could be a lot worse for a dog honestly. They live a pretty good life


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

I cant even let my dogs out unleashed with me because of the coyotes here. We lost a dog last oct to one and my husband was right there. We also have to worry about owls  My neighbour has a large dog and she cant let him out alone and takes a bat with her when she does. Our neibour on the other side has a fully fenced yard that the coyotes cant get in (they dig under all the fences here because the ground is like clay) and they torment her large dog through the fence. I have talked to the conservation officer here and was told not to ever leave my children unattended in the yard let alone my dogs (not that I ever would...I am very overprotective).

Like said earlier in my post...I crate and I have to, its much safer for my dogs. I had a larger crate and Maggie would just pee in it so we went smaller and she stopped. I know for a fact that if left to roam the house she would potty somewhere, even though she hasnt in the house forever. My dogs would also end up hurting themselves by playing and wrestling if we left them...and we dont have the room here to have a dog proof room, and Maggie doesnt like the bathroom she would feel trapped and scratch the door and probably eat the wall.


Edited to add*

I had a dog when I was a kid and she chewed everything, couches, toilet paper, anything she could get ahold of when we were out. I remember one day coming home with my parents (and remember I was just a kid and had no control over this) my dog chewed my moms work bag and everything inside (she was a tree planter) our whole kitchen was covered in toilet paper, tampons, planting tape, paper ripped up bag and what ever else was in there. My dad was fed up and took some of the stuff and placed it in her mouth, lightly taped it and tied her to the door for about an hour.  

Very cruel but she never chewed anything ever again. I think crating is way more ethical than what he did.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

misty073 said:


> I cant even let my dogs out unleashed with me because of the coyotes here. We lost a dog last oct to one and my husband was right there. We also have to worry about owls  My neighbour has a large dog and she cant let him out alone and takes a bat with her when she does. Our neibour on the other side has a fully fenced yard that the coyotes cant get in (they dig under all the fences here because the ground is like clay) and they torment her large dog through the fence. I have talked to the conservation officer here and was told not to ever leave my children unattended in the yard let alone my dogs (not that I ever would...I am very overprotective).
> 
> Like said earlier in my post...I crate and I have to, its much safer for my dogs. I had a larger crate and Maggie would just pee in it so we went smaller and she stopped. I know for a fact that if left to roam the house she would potty somewhere, even though she hasnt in the house forever. * My dogs would also end up hurting themselves by playing and wrestling if we left them..*.and we dont have the room here to have a dog proof room, and Maggie doesnt like the bathroom she would feel trapped and scratch the door and probably eat the wall.


Another good point. I think Tag would be more than capable of hurting himself by attempting to swan dive off the back of the recliner, or trying to see just what it is that I keep in the bay window, or what's on top of the kitchen table...papillons have hollow little bird bones as it is, and I really don't want to fix a busted leg. 
Also, Tag annoys the cats. The cats annoy Tag. They chase, wrestle, and play fight. It's really funny to watch, because they ARE playing, but I wouldn't want it to get out of hand when I'm not around. Sarah (one of the cats) is a true bitch, and gets over stimulated very quickly and will bite/claw. A) I don't want Tag getting bit, and B) I don't want the cat hurt if Tag decides enough is enough when I'm not home. 
Even leaving Auz loose in the general population would be a disaster. I have 2 small dogs and 2 cats, and a 88 pound GSD. Even in play, he could hurt them badly. Not a risk I'm willing to take, and I knew that risk when I brought a large breed dog into a house full of small dogs and cats. Many times in Auz's younger days he would plow through the path of small dogs and cats, sending them flying like bowling pins. NOT something I want him to think is OK, and not something I want him to rehearse for the sheer joy of it while I'm not here.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

I live in a VERY rural area of Illinois, but it is just an hour and a half south of Chicago, and STILL, we have coyotes, chicken hawks (beautiful in the air, butt ugly on the ground) more than able to pick up a small breed dog, other hawks, and even the occasional eagle.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Many times in Auz's younger days he would plow through the path of small dogs and cats, sending them flying like bowling pins. NOT something I want him to think is OK, and not something I want him to rehearse for the sheer joy of it while I'm not here.


I'm sorry, this is TOTALLY OT but I am rolling with laughter here at the mental image.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

kas said:


> I am reading and educating myself for my future dog and wondering about crate training.
> I see the initial value and that it is a den and safe place for the puppy but at what point is it more of a prison for a dog?
> I should of titled this post Crateing Dogs Ethical?
> 
> ...


The idea that a crate simulates the denning experience for a dog in my opinion is complete BS. The dog should view the entire hosue as their den just as they would in the wild. In the wild a dog certainly does not choose a den that is just big enough to turn and stand it. In the wild the den is big enough to house the entire pack and seperate living space is dolled out by the leader of the pack. THIS reason is why confinement training works much better than crate training. By limiting the amount of space you expose your dog to in the house byusing baby gates not only are you playing on that natural instinct but you are also setting up the dog for the best success possible at being able to be out in the house when you're not home thru non-confrontational methods that also helps the dog view you as a confident in control leader. 

Even when it comes to potty training, the point of a crate is ridiculous. It makes a dog want to hold it as they won't mess where they sleep. Yeah right. It stresses puppies that are over crates as they CAN'T hold it, and personally that is no way to start a 15 year relationship being seen as an overlord rather than a firm fair leader. It is UNREASONABLE to ask a pup to accept this with out expecting to cause some emotional stress and mistrust in their leader. How many threads are on this furum to refute that fact that crating DOES NOT speed up housebreaking? ... my 1 year old dog pees every time I crate him. Those dogs are peeing out of anxiety and lack of the opportunity to make the proper choices when they were young as to where is and isn't appropriate to go potty. Paper training provides you that opportunity to teach appropriate potty habits before a dog is able to actually hold their bladder that long. It's all about making the RIGHT choices. 

Many countries in the UK and Europe have banned crating as they have FINALLY seen the truth in the cruelty behind crating dogs. IMO crating should ONLY be used in the most extreme of control siuations. The dog's health and life may be at risk if left out alone in the house, the dog may go thru a window after passers by, the dog is on strict rest after a proceedure or injury... THESE types of things are the ONLY reason I can justify crating a dog when you're not home. I have raised well over 20 dogs from carious ages in my life (these being my OWN dogs not includign clients dogs) and NONE have ever been crate trained, all confinement trained with baby gates in a dog safe room so ti can absolutely be done and they actually train FASTER with confinement training. All my dogs have been reliably out in my hosue by 6 months old with no accidents and no destriction save for the occasional stray tissue or napkin. Crating can cause long lastig mental trauma when overused and why even subject your dog to that if there are other options that are available with out those mental side effects that are actually MORE effective than crating. I could go on and on about this issue, but I won't because I know the rest of the forum is likely tired of hearing my endless anti-crate diatribe. You can search my past thread posts if you need more info on my views of crating.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> The idea that a crate simulates the denning experience for a dog in my opinion is complete BS. The dog should view the entire hosue as their den just as they would in the wild. In the wild a dog certainly does not choose a den that is just big enough to turn and stand it. In the wild the den is big enough to house the entire pack and seperate living space is dolled out by the leader of the pack. THIS reason is why confinement training works much better than crate training. By limiting the amount of space you expose your dog to in the house byusing baby gates not only are you playing on that natural instinct but you are also setting up the dog for the best success possible at being able to be out in the house when you're not home thru non-confrontational methods that also helps the dog view you as a confident in control leader.
> 
> Even when it comes to potty training, the point of a crate is ridiculous. It makes a dog want to hold it as they won't mess where they sleep. Yeah right. It stresses puppies that are over crates as they CAN'T hold it, and personally that is no way to start a 15 year relationship being seen as an overlord rather than a firm fair leader. It is UNREASONABLE to ask a pup to accept this with out expecting to cause some emotional stress and mistrust in their leader. How many threads are on this furum to refute that fact that crating DOES NOT speed up housebreaking? ... my 1 year old dog pees every time I crate him. Those dogs are peeing out of anxiety and lack of the opportunity to make the proper choices when they were young as to where is and isn't appropriate to go potty. Paper training provides you that opportunity to teach appropriate potty habits before a dog is able to actually hold their bladder that long. It's all about making the RIGHT choices.
> 
> Many countries in the UK and Europe have banned crating as they have FINALLY seen the truth in the cruelty behind crating dogs. IMO crating should ONLY be used in the most extreme of control siuations. The dog's health and life may be at risk if left out alone in the house, the dog may go thru a window after passers by, the dog is on strict rest after a proceedure or injury... THESE types of things are the ONLY reason I can justify crating a dog when you're not home. I have raised well over 20 dogs from carious ages in my life (these being my OWN dogs not includign clients dogs) and NONE have ever been crate trained, all confinement trained with baby gates in a dog safe room so ti can absolutely be done and they actually train FASTER with confinement training. All my dogs have been reliably out in my hosue by 6 months old with no accidents and no destriction save for the occasional stray tissue or napkin. Crating can cause long lastig mental trauma when overused and why even subject your dog to that if there are other options that are available with out those mental side effects that are actually MORE effective than crating. I could go on and on about this issue, but I won't because I know the rest of the forum is likely tired of hearing my endless anti-crate diatribe. You can search my past thread posts if you need more info on my views of crating.


out of curiosity, what do you do instead of crating? i'd love to hear other options.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dog_Shrink said:


> The idea that a crate simulates the denning experience for a dog in my opinion is complete BS. The dog should view the entire hosue as their den just as they would in the wild. In the wild a dog certainly does not choose a den that is just big enough to turn and stand it. In the wild the den is big enough to house the entire pack and seperate living space is dolled out by the leader of the pack. THIS reason is why confinement training works much better than crate training. By limiting the amount of space you expose your dog to in the house byusing baby gates not only are you playing on that natural instinct but you are also setting up the dog for the best success possible at being able to be out in the house when you're not home thru non-confrontational methods that also helps the dog view you as a confident in control leader.


Until your dog eats through the drywall or pulls up your flooring. Seriosuly, that is what happens if I leave Mia in a 'safe room'.


> Many countries in the UK and Europe have banned crating as they have FINALLY seen the truth in the cruelty behind crating dogs. IMO crating should ONLY be used in the most extreme of control siuations. The dog's health and life may be at risk if left out alone in the house, the dog may go thru a window after passers by, the dog is on strict rest after a proceedure or injury... THESE types of things are the ONLY reason I can justify crating a dog when you're not home. I have raised well over 20 dogs from carious ages in my life (these being my OWN dogs not includign clients dogs) and NONE have ever been crate trained, all confinement trained with baby gates in a dog safe room so ti can absolutely be done and they actually train FASTER with confinement training. All my dogs have been reliably out in my hosue by 6 months old with no accidents and no destriction save for the occasional stray tissue or napkin. Crating can cause long lastig mental trauma when overused and why even subject your dog to that if there are other options that are available with out those mental side effects that are actually MORE effective than crating. I could go on and on about this issue, but I won't because I know the rest of the forum is likely tired of hearing my endless anti-crate diatribe. You can search my past thread posts if you need more info on my views of crating.


How do you know it works faster than crate training if you've never done crate training before?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I think that crate training for housebreaking, management etc IS ethical PROVIDING:
> The dog/pup has been properly and positively introduced to the crate.
> The dog/pup is given appropriate "free time" and is fulfilled during the free time..whether that be training sessions, free play, visits and socialization with others or any other appropriate outlet.
> That long crate periods are broken up by a dogwalker/petsitter visit.
> ...



IMO a dog that is properly confinement trained in a dog safe room is just as comfortable being crated for those events as a dog who has been crate trained. Luna has never been crate trained but one day just for giggles and to prove a point to a doubter I crated her for several hours while we were hanging around the house indoors and out and never a peep, a crate challenge, a howl, a whine. NOTHING. She just walked in on her own out of curiosity, I shut the door and walked away with out a word to her. The reason why... she was comfortable with being confined period. The size of the confinement shouldn't rightly matter to a dog that is confident in being confined and seperated from their people.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> The size of the confinement shouldn't rightly matter to a dog that is confident in being confined and seperated from their people.



Hate to jump into an argument, even though it seems easy to do on here, but 

you just destroyed your own argument.

Confinement is confinement REGARDLESS of size: crate/room/x-pen, they're all forms of confinement and it is the conditioning/training, and PROPER use of it that makes the difference.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Until your dog eats through the drywall or pulls up your flooring. Seriosuly, that is what happens if I leave Mia in a 'safe room'.
> 
> 
> How do you know it works faster than crate training if you've never done crate training before?


If Mia is doing that ... sorry but honestly you never properly taught her how to feel comfortable and confident being left alone with out being crated. Some dogs develop a problem where they become co-dependant on their crates to manage impulse control and never develop that trait when left alone in a home well simply because they were never exposed to it when they were young. Crate training hinders the teaching of appropriate house manners well why??? Simply because the dog is never granted the opportunity to screw up and be corrected and redirected. So being in such a tempting situation with out the proper coping tools, I'm not surprised you end up with destructive behavior because the stress of all that freedom again causes anxiety. 

I know it works faster from client experience and many other experiences in life. Just how many threads are on here about 1 year old dogs that still pee in their crates or in their homes? How many threads about dogs that are destructive when left out after crating since puppyhood? If a dog is raised knowing the wentire hosue is their den and not just that little metal box you build a much more confident well adjusted dog who respects teh whole house and not just the crate.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i gotta say it. this is a total pet peeve of mine.

Im seeing the den theory pop up a lot in this thread.

the den theory is bs. TOTAL bs. Dogs dont naturally den unless they are about to drop puppies. dogs roam..and when they do den..its nothing like a crate.

"Its his den" is not the reason crating has had any success. 

the reason the crate works for potty training is mental pressure. 

the reason the crate works for everything else is that you've conditioned your dogs to be dependant on it.

Crate? fine go ahead and crate...but dont dress it up as something its not.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dog_Shrink said:


> If Mia is doing that ... sorry but honestly you never properly taught her how to feel comfortable and confident being left alone with out being crated. Some dogs develop a problem where they become co-dependant on their crates to manage impulse control and never develop that trait when left alone in a home well simply because they were never exposed to it when they were young. Crate training hinders the teaching of appropriate house manners well why??? Simply because the dog is never granted the opportunity to screw up and be corrected. So being in such a tempting situation with out the proper coping tools, I'm not surprised you end up with destructive behavior because the stress of all that freedom again causes anxiety.


And you suggest I teach her this how?


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i gotta say it. this is a total pet peeve of mine.
> 
> Im seeing the den theory pop up a lot in this thread.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Papilove said:


> Hate to jump into an argument, even though it seems easy to do on here, but
> 
> you just destroyed your own argument.
> 
> Confinement is confinement REGARDLESS of size: crate/room/x-pen, they're all forms of confinement and it is the conditioning/training, and PROPER use of it that makes the difference.


No I don't think I did. The point that I was making from crackers post was that a dog that is raised on confinement training is comfortable being confined even if never exposed to a crate in their life.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> IMO a dog that is properly confinement trained in a dog safe room is just as comfortable being crated for those events as a dog who has been crate trained. Luna has never been crate trained but one day just for giggles and to prove a point to a doubter I crated her for several hours while we were hanging around the house indoors and out and never a peep, a crate challenge, a howl, a whine. NOTHING. She just walked in on her own out of curiosity, I shut the door and walked away with out a word to her. The reason why... she was comfortable with being confined period. *The size of the confinement shouldn't rightly matter to a dog that is confident in being confined and seperated from their people.*


Um.. so why is crating so cruel again? You just straight up said the size of their confinement shouldn't matter, and that dogs can feel completely comfortable while crated. Yet before you went on and on about how the whole house needs to be a den and small confinement spaces are traumatizing.

BTW, if den theory is BS, would you mind explaining why Basil's favorite place is his tiny travel carrier? I left it out one day right after I bought it, and went in and took a nap and just loved it. Ever since I've left it out open in my living room for him to use freely and he's always in there curled up in a little ball. And even when he isn't using his carrier, he's under either a chair or a table. In fact I challenge you to observe your dogs' favorite lounging places and see if you can't find them seeking out any den-like spaces. Yes, I know that not every dog prefers small spaces, but I know I'm not the only one.

Personally I think when you crate train a dog, you create a safe, comfortable place for him. It's a very private place where they aren't bothered by anyone else and safe from all sides. When conditioned to feel comfortable in their crate, they can use that comfort for support when in stressful situations like travel, vet visits, dog shows, having company over, etc. I believe that this is why I've had so much success using my dog's crate when trying to manage and reduce his SA. I may be gone, which is stressful as heck to him, but at least he's got the comfort and safety of his crate to help reduce his anxiety. And I think the reason why he seeks out den-like areas is because they feel safe and comfortable to him.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> If Mia is doing that ... sorry but honestly you never properly taught her how to feel comfortable and confident being left alone with out being crated. Some dogs develop a problem where they become co-dependant on their crates to manage impulse control and never develop that trait when left alone in a home well simply because they were never exposed to it when they were young. Crate training hinders the teaching of appropriate house manners well why??? Simply because the dog is never granted the opportunity to screw up and be corrected and redirected. So being in such a tempting situation with out the proper coping tools, I'm not surprised you end up with destructive behavior because the stress of all that freedom again causes anxiety.


I've got to jump in and disagree with this to an extent. When we first got Frag at 12 weeks, he had not been introduced to a crate, and wasn't until a few weeks after we got him. We tried keeping him 'confined' to the laundry areas and bathroom areas, but in every area, he chewed drywall, cabinets, and scratched trim. He didn't do it if we were there, so there was no real way to distract and redirect his behavior. We tried opening the door/gate and doing an ah ah and giving him a toy, but that never stopped him. We had to move on to a crate for his safety and our walls/cabinets/trims safety.

We also shortly thereafter moved onto an xpen for more freedom. That worked for about a month, then he started eating carpet and jumping out. Back to crate, and now he demolishes it. 

What would you have suggested we do different?

On a tangent, I'd like to make the comment that my beagle was never crate trained, but was kept tied into a room of the house when she was a puppy and we were gone. Took her forever to house train, but that's not the point I'm getting at. Now, years later, she still chews inside when left unattended, but loves crates. I never introduced her to one formally, but she started going in Frag's baby crate a month or so ago, and now loves going in there to sleep or when we're gone with no issues. Win win, I'd say.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> And you suggest I teach her this how?


You can certainly start introducing her by building her confidence by confining her when you are home and able to correct and redirect ther behavior when it happens. You do the same desensatizng exercises you do when you have a dog that is sensitive to your leaving. Start at short incriments 5, 10 minutes then come back and praise when there's no destruction, and the goal is to increase the time with each successful short leaving. If you make it for 5 minutes for a few days and no destruction or anxiety then you go to 10 and then 15 and so on. It absolutely can be done if you have the desire and commit the time and energy to it, but it wil be hard since she has become crate dependant.


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## Sakima (Apr 8, 2010)

I only crated Sakima longer to house train him but now that he's about 95% house trained he's basically out of the cage all the time. We also have a backyard, I can't stand crating him unless I have to. I think crating any animal for long periods of time is cruel, if your not home enough to spend time with a dog then don't get one. Simple as that.

How would you like to be caged all the time!?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> On a tangent, I'd like to make the comment that my beagle was never crate trained, but was kept tied into a room of the house when she was a puppy and we were gone. Took her forever to house train, but that's not the point I'm getting at. Now, years later, she still chews inside when left unattended, but loves crates. I never introduced her to one formally, but she started going in Frag's baby crate a month or so ago, and now loves going in there to sleep or when we're gone with no issues. Win win, I'd say.



social pressure. one dog copying other dog.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i gotta say it. this is a total pet peeve of mine.
> 
> Im seeing the den theory pop up a lot in this thread.
> 
> ...


As much as I agree with many of your points of view this I have to just elaborate on a little bit. Dogs in the wild DO den aside of just when they're ready to have pups. When they aren't ranging they do look for den space to keep them protected and feeling safe rom interlopers. It's much safer than plopping down in an open field and sleeping or resting. Maybe not all pack members will choose to go into den to sleep because of century duty or too cramped BUT most will.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> As much as I agree with many of your points of view this I have to just elaborate on a little bit. Dogs in the wild DO den aside of just when they're ready to have pups. When they aren't ranging they do look for den space to keep them protected and feeling safe rom interlopers. It's much safer than plopping down in an open field and sleeping or resting. Maybe not all pack members will choose to go into den to sleep because of century duty or too cramped BUT most will.


WOLVES do that. DOGS dont really do formal packs. they only really "pack up" for hunting. they pair up for mating.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Nargle said:


> Um.. so why is crating so cruel again? *You just straight up said the size of their confinement shouldn't matter, *and that dogs can feel completely comfortable while crated. Yet before you went on and on about how the whole house needs to be a den and small confinement spaces are traumatizing.
> 
> BTW, if den theory is BS, would you mind explaining why Basil's favorite place is his tiny travel carrier? I left it out one day right after I bought it, and went in and took a nap and just loved it. Ever since I've left it out open in my living room for him to use freely and he's always in there curled up in a little ball. And even when he isn't using his carrier, he's under either a chair or a table. In fact I challenge you to observe your dogs' favorite lounging places and see if you can't find them seeking out any den-like spaces. Yes, I know that not every dog prefers small spaces, but I know I'm not the only one.
> 
> Personally I think when you crate train a dog, you create a safe, comfortable place for him. It's a very private place where they aren't bothered by anyone else and safe from all sides. When conditioned to feel comfortable in their crate, they can use that comfort for support when in stressful situations like travel, vet visits, dog shows, having company over, etc. I believe that this is why I've had so much success using my dog's crate when trying to manage and reduce his SA. I may be gone, which is stressful as heck to him, but at least he's got the comfort and safety of his crate to help reduce his anxiety. And I think the reason why he seeks out den-like areas is because they feel safe and comfortable to him.


Why is everyone commenting on this choosing to comment solely on THAT part of my statement. That part in itself is irrelivant with out the rest of the statement and you are twisting my words. What I said was *a dog that is CONFINEMENT trained is cofident and comfortable being confined in any situation regardless of rthe size of the confinement area*. so NO I am not going back on my self, double talking or whatever else y'all like to call it. Y'all are choosing what parts of my statement to use dependig on your arguement.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Wild dogs may "den" and "nest" for shelter and protection... But I really don't think that my inside-domesticated Chihuahua goes to his crate like it's his "den"... He just wants a place to feel safe and secure, if I turned my closet into a room just for him, he probably feel just as safe and secure... The point I'm making is, it doesn't have to be a "den" or a "cave", it could even just be a cushion on the sofa... 

I don't know- I don't think I'm making my point very clear. lol

I just find it grating to call it a "den" when we're talking about man-made plastic crates and dogs that I highly doubt would survive in the wild. 

:Edit: I'm beginning to see the topic at hand slowly slipping farther and farther from the OP's debate. lmao


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> WOLVES do that. DOGS dont really do formal packs. they only really "pack up" for hunting. they pair up for mating.


Have you ever had the opportunity to observed a pack of feral domestic dogs? They certainly do form groups that work very similarly to wild wolves, and even in my own experience with living in a multi dog house for many many years where no one has to be crated and rotated they really do very much take on those denning qualities.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> social pressure. one dog copying other dog.


Kit's NEVER seen another dog in a crate. Frag's only crated at my house when we're gone, and when we're gone she goes outside. 

Dog_Shrink- could you comment on my post on page 5? I'd honestly like to know what you would have done in that situation.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dog_Shrink said:


> You can certainly start introducing her by building her confidence by confining her when you are home and able to correct and redirect ther behavior when it happens. You do the same desensatizng exercises you do when you have a dog that is sensitive to your leaving. Start at short incriments 5, 10 minutes then come back and praise when there's no destruction, and the goal is to increase the time with each successful short leaving. If you make it for 5 minutes for a few days and no destruction or anxiety then you go to 10 and then 15 and so on. It absolutely can be done if you have the desire and commit the time and energy to it, but it wil be hard since she has become crate dependant.


First of all, I believe Mia is an issue of maturity. All my past dogs have eventually gotten free roam. Nard took a year before he could start being trusted. Mia is only 14 months and she is unlike any dog I've ever had. She is extremely driven, impulsive, and busy. 

In the mean time, I prefer for her not to be given the opportunity to destroy things and build on an already self-rewarding activity. Of course it fails sometimes and I end up with a mess. I don't understand the ideaology of let them fail first then correct them when I could just prevent the issue in the first place. 

Also, I dont see how the dog would associate the praise with not being destructive. I have dealt with SA and it's just not the same deal as this. Mia destroys things simply because it's fun for her.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Actually they don't. 

There's a member here who spent time studying ferals as a part of his thesis..his research agrees with all the rest.

A dog pack is tenuous at best. They do not have the kind of ritualized behaviors that make wolf packs able to be long term. There's no structure to the dog pack nor do its members stay members for life like with most wolves. Dog packs are fluid and change at the drop of a pin. They are nothing like a wolf pack. Look at some of the longitudinal studies on dog pack structure.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Why is everyone commenting on this choosing to comment solely on THAT part of my statement. That part in itself is irrelivant with out the rest of the statement and you are twisting my words. What I said was *a dog that is CONFINEMENT trained is cofident and comfortable being confined in any situation regardless of rthe size of the confinement area*. so NO I am not going back on my self, double talking or whatever else y'all like to call it. Y'all are choosing what parts of my statement to use dependig on your arguement.


I was referring to how you kept saying crates are traumatizing yet went on to say how your "confident" dog is perfectly fine being in a crate. I may have bolded your hypothesis but I was referring to your whole post plus past posts.

Have you ever thought that maybe crates aren't cruel and traumatizing, and that dogs who get stressed out in crates are stressed because they've had bad experiences in them? Such as crating for hours right from the beginning, only using the crate when you leave, or using the crate as a punishment place, etc. Which is an owner problem, not a crate problem. Same concept goes for dogs that fear cars, shiny floors, men, vets, noises, etc. If you have never abused the use of the crate with your dog, it makes sense that she isn't going to be anxious when crated. 

Also, I think it's funny how you get onto me for "only commenting on a small statement" when you basically ignored my whole post.


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## lilstrlett (May 26, 2010)

I don't think you're horrible. Sometimes when you have an active puppy, or one who gets bored or nervous, and they chew things, this is what you have to do. They sleep most of the day anyway, so them being in the crate isn't inhibiting them from doing it. Of course putting my puppy in a crate isn't something that I necessarily "want" to do, but when you don't want your house destroyed, you just have to do it.



Dreadog said:


> Well, we are some of those horrible owners who leave their dog in a crate all day. When we got Hoku I was only working 1/2 time, but when she turned about 8 months both my husband and I had to go back to work full time. From about 4 months (when we got her) until 8 months, she only spent the night in the crate and occasional time during the day. Come September of last year, she started spending between 8-16 hours a day in the crate, 8 hours at night and 8 hours during the day.
> 
> We tried baby gating her, we tried the X-pen, but it didn't work. While she s fully potty trained, when left alone for long periods she does destroy things. In January we stopped crating her at night, and if I can arrange to come home in the middle of the day to offer her a break, we sometimes leave her loose during the day, but loose for 8 hours straight during the day has NOT worked out for us.
> 
> Sometimes I feel bad having her crated all day, and really I hope to be able to leave her loose. In an ideal world, she would not be crated as much. I even thought about rehoming her; but, when I think of all the dogs who are treated much worse then as Hoku, I don't feel as bad. She gets 3 walks a day, good food, veterinary care, training, and a family that loves her. If the worse thing that happens to her in her life is that she spends 8 hours a day in a crate, that is not too bad.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the reason the crate works for everything else is that you've conditioned your dogs to be dependant on it.


He CHOSE to go in there and of course I'm not going to say "NO DON'T GO IN THE CRATE!"

He offered the behavior and got his own reward from it, and since I have no qualms with him choosing the crate, I rewarded it also. Then put it on a cue.

I certainly don't think he's "dependent" on it. He's fine in or out of the crate. He learns impulse control (quite well - I've seen him, on his own, avoid "forbidden" objects). He doesn't destroy anything in the house. Like I said earlier, he could get out and roam the house (he can open just about all the doors even if they are closed). 

You may not like the concept of den theory, and maybe it's false, don't know - don't really care, but it's not like Wally is unable to function on his own without having a crate or is addicted to it or something.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

deege39 said:


> Wild dogs may "den" and "nest" for shelter and protection... But I really don't think that my inside-domesticated Chihuahua goes to his crate like it's his "den"... He just wants a place to feel safe and secure, if I turned my closet into a room just for him, he probably feel just as safe and secure... The point I'm making is, it doesn't have to be a "den" or a "cave", it could even just be a cushion on the sofa...


I agree that domestic dogs when properly socialized and given the coping tools to feel comfortable in any situation do not have the need to "den" perse but do look for secluded out of the way places to depressurize. Which like you said could be as simple as a couch cushion. I have found many smaller dogs that seem to like small places to sleep benifit greatly from sleeping in cup cuddlers. It gives them the same sense of security of having something on all sides of them. 

For Nargel no I didn't mean to jump on you like that but I think you were like the third person to quote that specific part of my statement to make it seem like double talk. That was my bad. Frustration and your post unfortunately was the straw. To answer the other part of your post "Have you ever thought that maybe crates aren't cruel and traumatizing, and that dogs who get stressed out in crates are stressed because they've had bad experiences in them? " Some yes some no. A lot certainly dsepends on how the crate training is used/abused, but when you're talking about puppies and crate training then that is a completely different story. Older dogs cancertainly develop baggage when it comes to crates if treated the way you expressed, but when dealing with puppies and crating there is a lot of emotional damage that can be caused by crating.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I agree that domestic dogs when properly socialized and given the coping tools to feel comfortable in any situation do not have the need to "den" perse but do look for secluded out of the way places to depressurize. Which like you said could be as simple as a couch cushion. I have found many smaller dogs that seem to like small places to sleep benifit greatly from sleeping in cup cuddlers. It gives them the same sense of security of having something on all sides of them.


I think Wally just likes secluded areas sometimes. One of his favorite places in my room (which he has full run of, even if "confined" [in quotes because he could "break out" if he wanted] is in the area just big enough for him between my desk and my tv stand. It's, literally, barely big enough for him to turn around without hitting anything.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Question, what is wrong with crating when many say (this is just something I've heard, I'm not personally agreeing or disagreeing) that the majority of time we are gone, dogs just sleep anyways? I'm fairly certain that's what my boxer does (who gets free roam of the house)...


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> First of all, I believe Mia is an issue of maturity. All my past dogs have eventually gotten free roam. Nard took a year before he could start being trusted. Mia is only 14 months and she is unlike any dog I've ever had. She is extremely driven, impulsive, and busy.
> 
> In the mean time, I prefer for her not to be given the opportunity to destroy things and build on an already self-rewarding activity. Of course it fails sometimes and I end up with a mess. I don't understand the ideaology of let them fail first then correct them when I could just prevent the issue in the first place.
> 
> Also, I dont see how the dog would associate the praise with not being destructive. I have dealt with SA and it's just not the same deal as this. Mia destroys things simply because it's fun for her.


Well her impulse will certainly cause hinderances but it can also work to your advantage as well if you channel it properly. The idea is to NOT let them fail, hence the strict short times that they are left alone BEFORE they can get into trouble then the gradual building of time left alone. If you're leaving them alone for 5 minuntes and you come in and there's no destruction and you praise then obviously you're showing the dog you're haoppy that things are the way you left them. If you come in and interrupt destructive behavior obviosly that gives you the opportunity to correct and redirect to another outlet for them to relieve their impulses. Being destructive out of bordedom is different than being destructive from SA. If Mia is being destructive because it is fun for her then I think the best thing would be to leave more challenging engaging things for her to do while you're gone. If she likes self rewarding things then maybe one of those puzzle treat toys would be perfect forher. She can dig and scratch and chew at that until she learns how to get the reward. Honestly it sound to me like MIa's a bt bored when left alone. What do you leave her with to keep herslef entertained? Well that may be moot tho since you probably leave her with those things in a crate and not confined in a room with those things to make the right choice. BTW drywall is very appealing to dogs... oddly enough and rabbits. I don't know what it is about it but there's something that just makes them want to gnaw on it. Maybe spraying the drywall with a chew deterrant like Grannick's bitter apple would be helpful.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

My dogs don't often choose to go into their crates on their own (they'd rather sleep on their dog beds), but go in willingly when I tell them to. They don't make any fuss; they just sleep. They're not normally in there for more than three or four hours at a time (except overnight, when they sleep in there for seven or eight hours). Crystal will sometimes go to the crate on her own if she's feeling sick, which reinforces my belief that she feels secure in there. She will also not do her normal alert bark from inside the crate, even if she hears my brother's dog arriving and leaping around in my kitchen.

My dogs are both chewers and the puppy's still too young to have full bladder control, and I don't trust them when I can't keep an eye (or ear) on them. I don't feel that the crate is cruel at all. My dogs do not look or act unhappy at all while in their crates, and so what if I've conditioned them to feel this way? If they don't mind the crate, who cares _why_ they don't mind it? They're safe and comfortable, and that's all I care about.

Also, I like to travel with my dogs, and crates are excellent in that case. I can take them anywhere... hotel, friend's house or apartment, whatever, and they automatically have a safe bed that's their own to sleep in. I also put them in their crates when we ride in the car for safety purposes, and since they're already used to the crates, it makes car rides no big deal.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Actually they don't.
> 
> There's a member here who spent time studying ferals as a part of his thesis..his research agrees with all the rest.
> 
> A dog pack is tenuous at best. They do not have the kind of ritualized behaviors that make wolf packs able to be long term. There's no structure to the dog pack nor do its members stay members for life like with most wolves. Dog packs are fluid and change at the drop of a pin. They are nothing like a wolf pack. Look at some of the longitudinal studies on dog pack structure.


I have and I have mixed feelings about a lot of it. Yes most packs are fluid and ever changing. Members come and go, leave or die, nothing is for life in a pack situation, dog OR wolf (and BTW there are other packs to watch aside of wolf. Cape hunting dog, hyena, african painted plains dog etc. It is highly fluid as I'm sure Nekomi can testify to now that she has had her visit to wolf park. Packs aren't like marriage. It certainly isn't for life.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

lilstrlett said:


> I don't think you're horrible. Sometimes when you have an active puppy, or one who gets bored or nervous, and they chew things, this is what you have to do. They sleep most of the day anyway, so them being in the crate isn't inhibiting them from doing it. Of course putting my puppy in a crate isn't something that I necessarily "want" to do, but when you don't want your house destroyed, you just have to do it.


No you don't. You are only putting a band aide on the problem insted of dealing with it. TRAINING the dog how to act is the answer, not crating them. Puppies DO spend about 16 hours a day sleeping until about age 10 weeks then you start to see drastic decrease in time they spend sleeping, unfortunately most people keep their dogs crated well into their first year because they never took the time and opportunity when they were young to teach them how to properly act. Insted what did they do? Put their dog in a crate.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I think Wally just likes secluded areas sometimes. One of his favorite places in my room (which he has full run of, even if "confined" [in quotes because he could "break out" if he wanted] is in the area just big enough for him between my desk and my tv stand. It's, literally, barely big enough for him to turn around without hitting anything.


Wally is also a terrier and it is in his genetic makeup to seek out small places for vermin. It seems he is just transposing that genetic desire to another outlet since there is no verminating to be done at home.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

meggels said:


> Question, what is wrong with crating when many say (this is just something I've heard, I'm not personally agreeing or disagreeing) that the majority of time we are gone, dogs just sleep anyways? I'm fairly certain that's what my boxer does (who gets free roam of the house)...


That all depends on many factors. I know my dogs don't just sleep when I'm gone and a lot of how they act while we're gone will depend on breed. Guard breeds will prefer to range their house and patrol, terriers may decide to play the day away. Again it's all about genetic predisposition.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> No you don't. You are only putting a band aide on the problem insted of dealing with it. TRAINING the dog how to act is the answer, not crating them. Puppies DO spend about 16 hours a day sleeping until about age 10 weeks then you start to see drastic decrease in time they spend sleeping, unfortunately most people keep their dogs crated well into their first year because they never took the time and opportunity when they were young to teach them how to properly act. Insted what did they do? Put their dog in a crate.


What if you really just don't have a space you could put them to keep them safe?

When I get my own apartment in the next six months, I am going to try to make sure it's got a kitchen with a small door opening, so I can babygate and just keep my dogs in the kitchen with beds and toys while I'm gone. I would really much prefer that. 

Sadly, the house we are in now (the house I've grown up in) it's SO inpractical for doing that lol. The only room that has tile is the kitchen (the rest of the house is carpet) and our whole house is VERY open floor plan style, the only rooms that have actual doors are bedrooms and bathrooms, other than that it's just door frames with no doors. And our kitchen has three "doors", but the one that opens to the living room is like...4x the size of a normal door lol. 

But yeah, when I get out on my own, I truly hope to find an apartment that will allow me to babygate off the kitchen or something so that I can keep the dogs uncrated during the day when I'm gone. I think I'm willing to give up other aspects in order to ensure that it's set up in regard to the floorplan to allow this.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> That all depends on many factors. I know my dogs don't just sleep when I'm gone and a lot of how they act while we're gone will depend on breed. Guard breeds will prefer to range their house and patrol, terriers may decide to play the day away. Again it's all about genetic predisposition.


lol. I'm pretty sure our boxer just sleeps haha  He loves to snuggle up on the couch, my bed, or my moms bed when the sun hits that side of the house, he just suns himself  But I'm sure he does watch out the window a bit too, because he naturally likes to patrol the house and yard. I just don't think he' sitting there playing with his toys or anything lol.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Wally is also a terrier and it is in his genetic makeup to seek out small places for vermin. It seems he is just transposing that genetic desire to another outlet since there is no verminating to be done at home.



He's not a terrier.

He's a Coton de Tulear 

I suspect he'd be in the toy group if he were AKC recognize. Or maybe non-sporting. I don't think his breed has a history/original purpose was to hunt rodents and such. At least not from info I can find.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I agree that domestic dogs when properly socialized and given the coping tools to feel comfortable in any situation do not have the need to "den" perse but do look for secluded out of the way places to depressurize. Which like you said could be as simple as a couch cushion. I have found many smaller dogs that seem to like small places to sleep benifit greatly from sleeping in cup cuddlers. It gives them the same sense of security of having something on all sides of them.
> 
> For Nargel no I didn't mean to jump on you like that but I think you were like the third person to quote that specific part of my statement to make it seem double talk. That was my bad. Frustration and your post unfortunately was the straw. To answer the other part of your post "Have you ever thought that maybe crates aren't cruel and traumatizing, and that dogs who get stressed out in crates are stressed because they've had bad experiences in them? " Some yes some no. A lot certainly dsepends on how the crate training is used/abused, but when you're talking about puppies and crate training then that is a completely different story. Older dogs cancertainly develop baggage when it comes to crates if treated the way you expressed, but when dealing with puppies and crating there is a lot of emotional damage that can be caused by crating.


I'd like to focus specifically on the issue of crate training puppies:
I'm assuming that the only emotional damage you're referring to is the damage caused by needing to hold it in and the stress of not wanting to soil oneself, correct? Personally I think that if you're leaving a puppy in a crate so long that it has to struggle to hold in its poo and pee then that's too long and it IS cruel. Young puppies should be let out to do their business at least every 2 hours, maybe even more frequently, and time between potty breaks should increase as the pup matures. A crate isn't meant to make puppies hold it in. If there's anything to hold in, you've waited too long. The crate is to build structure and reinforce proper potty habits. Even if you're always taking the puppy out like clockwork to the backyard for a potty break, there isn't really anything there to suggest to the puppy that pooping while there's a roof over your head = bad. But puppies DO understand that pottying where you sleep, eat, and have to roll in it is bad. And using the crate will create a contrast with the backyard where they are allowed to potty. Not that they ever have to experience the feeling of stressing out because they have a full bladder and they don't want to lay in a puddle. They don't need to have a full bladder to understand the concept. And if they understand the concept, they grow up to be willing to hold it a few minutes while you're looking for your shoes to let them out, because they know that pottying inside of the house is wrong.

Yes, there are other ways to teach a dog that pottying inside of the house is wrong, but they usually involve the puppy making several mistakes and you having to catch them in the act and correct them before they make the connection. If you don't use a crate, there's nothing to tell them where to potty except when you punish them for pottying in the wrong place. And you can try to be as proactive as possible and try to take your dog out as often as he needs it, which works most of the time. But we're not mind-readers, and eventually the dog is going to have to make the connection in its head that pottying inside is bad, one way or another.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

There are more than a handful of people who think crating a dog is borderline abuse. They shouldn't use 'em, if they feel that way. Dogs can be trained without crates...and I know that because I've done it. I make no bones about the fact that crating is for the dog's safety and my convenience.

We had a locally famous TV dog trainer who was very ant-crate. His solution to the house training/destructiveness problem was confinement with gates, etc.. Pardon my bluntness, but this is an intellectual dodge. It's like the guy who tells you he's not an alcoholic because he only drinks beer and wine.

Confinement to a dog-proofed room is just as easily abused as a crate. If a dog has enough to do, and sufficient human contact (and the dog gets to decide what is enough/sufficient) there is no problem.

BTW, pointing out that crates are banned in England is not an argument. It is a Mallum Prohibitum offense.

And outdoor kenneling is also fine, as long as all the standards of good care are observed.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Nargle said:


> I'd like to focus specifically on the issue of crate training puppies:
> I'm assuming that the only emotional damage you're referring to is the damage caused by needing to hold it in and the stress of not wanting to soil oneself, correct? Personally I think that if you're leaving a puppy in a crate so long that it has to struggle to hold in its poo and pee then that's too long and it IS cruel. Young puppies should be let out to do their business at least every 2 hours, maybe even more frequently, and time between potty breaks should increase as the pup matures. A crate isn't meant to make puppies hold it in. If there's anything to hold in, you've waited too long. The crate is to build structure and reinforce proper potty habits. Even if you're always taking the puppy out like clockwork to the backyard for a potty break, there isn't really anything there to suggest to the puppy that pooping while there's a roof over your head = bad. But puppies DO understand that pottying where you sleep, eat, and have to roll in it is bad. And using the crate will create a contrast with the backyard where they are allowed to potty. Not that they ever have to experience the feeling of stressing out because they have a full bladder and they don't want to lay in a puddle. They don't need to have a full bladder to understand the concept. And if they understand the concept, they grow up to be willing to hold it a few minutes while you're looking for your shoes to let them out, because they know that pottying inside of the house is wrong.
> 
> Yes, there are other ways to teach a dog that pottying inside of the house is wrong, but they usually involve the puppy making several mistakes and you having to catch them in the act and correct them before they make the connection. If you don't use a crate, there's nothing to tell them where to potty except when you punish them for pottying in the wrong place. And you can try to be as proactive as possible and try to take your dog out as often as he needs it, which works most of the time. But we're not mind-readers, and eventually the dog is going to have to make the connection in its head that pottying inside is bad, one way or another.


Since you chose to focus on the potty training end of it let's expand on that. Teaching a dog proper potty habits is NOT about correcting accidents but providing the dog with proper choices when it comes to potty. Just because you let a dog potty in the house on paper or pads does not mean you're moving backwards in the effort to potty train. It means you're providing the dog with a CHOICE to go in the proper place rather than to be forced to either hold it (which they can't) or lay in their mess if their owner is neglectful. By teaching that there is a proper place to go it is easier to transpose that place to another location with out the discomfort or stress of disappointing their owner or the discomfort of having to hold it longer than they are capable of. Dogs don't really understand contrasting issues but they do recognise acceptable versus unaccptable dependant upon our reaction to an event. I really wish that more people would realise that it's about making proper choices rather than complete avoidance of pottying in the house. Owners that never let their dog make choices and think and reason what is the best situation for them often end up with a dog that is always looking to their owner for direction which is not good. A pup needs to learn how to think for themselves, act by themselves, and build confidence. A dog tha doesn't learn how to think and make acceptable decisions think is always unsure and under confident and I think we all know what happens when you have a dog taht lacks confidence. It opens you up to a myriad of many different behavioral issues. .


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> There are more than a handful of people who think crating a dog is borderline abuse. They shouldn't use 'em, if they feel that way. Dogs can be trained without crates...and I know that because I've done it. I make no bones about the fact that crating is for the dog's safety and my convenience.
> 
> We had a locally famous TV dog trainer who was very ant-crate. His solution to the house training/destructiveness problem was confinement with gates, etc.. Pardon my bluntness, but this is an intellectual dodge. It's like the guy who tells you he's not an alcoholic because he only drinks beer and wine.
> 
> ...


I love this post! 

Personally I see a crate as a very useful tool for Mia. Maybe one day she will grow out of it like the others have but at this point, I really believe crating is in her best interest. 

Oh she does have a lot of puzzle toys but she can empty them in about a minute and a half. She is an exceptionally bright and busy little dog (not tooting my own horn, just comparing to my other dogs)


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

I've crate trained every dog I've had since I was 15. I haven't had much in the way of housebreaking issues this way, and the dogs will (at time) ask to be let into their crates.

Right now, we have two free roam dogs and two crated dogs. The crated dogs are fed in their crates and are also kept crated when nobody is home, although we are trying to wean our rottweiler into being a free roam dog because his crate is so big. I keep the two dogs crated because, well, they can't be trusted fully. The little guy has a tendency to chase the cats, and the big guy just hasn't earned his way out yet (again, it is something we are slowly working on).

I have always and will always crate train any dog that comes into my house, be it a permanent pet or a foster. I have never had any negative experiences with crate training my dogs, an they have been no worse for the wear. Additionally, I have found that dogs who have not been crate trained are horrible patients when they have to be hospitalized.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Confinement to a dog-proofed room is just as easily abused as a crate. If a dog has enough to do, and sufficient human contact (and the dog gets to decide what is enough/sufficient) there is no problem.
> 
> BTW, pointing out that crates are banned in England is not an argument. It is a Mallum Prohibitum offense.
> 
> And outdoor kenneling is also fine, as long as all the standards of good care are observed.


Yes confining to a dog safe room is as easy to abuse as a crate BUT the biggest difference is that when abused by being confined in a large space is that the dog will not suffer the same issues as a dog confined in a small crate that is just big enough to stand and turn in. At least in a room or even an x-pen or outdoor pen you have a larger space that at least the dog can bound around in to blow off anxiety and exercise as well as maintain musculoskeletal intergrity. You don't see muscle atrophy or growth and development issues in dogs that are confined in larger spaces that gives them the room to move. Honestly my BIGGEST problem with crates is the amount of space the dog is given.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I feel... overlooked.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Yes confining to a dog safe room is as easy to abuse as a crateBUT the biggest difference is taht when abused by being confined in a alrge space is taht the dog will not suffer the same issues as a dog confined in a small crate that is just big enough to stand and turn in. At least in a room or even an x-pen or outdoor pen you have a larger space that at least the dog can bound around in to blow off anxiety and exercise as well as maintain musculoskeletal intergrity. You don't see muscle atrophy or growth and development issues in dogs that are confined in larger spaces that gives them the room to move. Honestly my BIGGEST problem with crates is the amount of space the dog is given.


This post kind of made me laugh a little. The idea behind the more 'generous' confinement of a 'safe room' is VERY subjective. A small, tile bathroom would be a 'generous' safe room for a toy dog, offering room to 'bound round' and release pent up steam and anxiety... not so much for a full-grown rottweiler, at least not my bathroom.

Common sense when it comes to ANY type of fair-minded, judiciously used TOOL makes the situation work no matter which you employ.

People who use appropriate safe rooms, people who allow free roam, people who use x-pens, and people who use crates, are all right, so long as they operate under the correct principles. Attempting to 'damn' another for using a tool properly makes YOU look foolish. All attempts to justify one as right and the other as wrong will end up looking silly.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Just coming back to this thread, and have accumulated a zillion multi-quotes as I find the conversation interesting and important too (so be patient).

First, I do have mixed feelings about crates. I actually have always preferred other methods for potty training as I have never experienced a young puppy that I could condition "happily" to be comfortable in a crate in a shorter time than I could potty train from a pen. 

I have crate trained only two of my dogs, but they did not ever naturally go into a crate on their own. Even though crates were left around, they had to be coaxed in. If treats were left in, they went in only to get the treat and then leave. Leaving the lid off I conditioned them to get used to the crate as a bed by putting it their favorite sleeping spot . . . .then I put the lid on and when I saw they were accustomed to that only then did I attempt a closed door . . . by that point with both of mine 7 - 8 months had gone past and they were already fully housetrained. 

Essentially my point was to give them some comfortability with the crate in case they were confined in one for surgery etc. (The training has now gone out the window as neither required confinement after surgery for more than the time they were "out" anyway.)

I have the experience with another dog that I am currently caring for that is terribly reliant on his crate. He was heavily crated at his breeders for 5 months, and then this continued by his owner. She loved that he came fully crate and potty trained.

He is almost 5 now and I find he does not have the open space confidense that I would want in a dog - he is constantly headed to his crate as if he is hermitting. I really dislike this, but perhaps others appreciate it. When I read this sentence from Dog Shrink I thought immediately of him.



Dog_Shrink said:


> If a dog is raised knowing the wentire hosue is their den and not just that little metal box you build a much more confident well adjusted dog who respects teh whole house and not just the crate.


I also think this is a great point in regards to potty training. I have always thought it was important to put great effort into 'growing' the den space from pen to full house while potty training a dog. My pups, by 5-6 months, have had run of, and are trustable on, my full main floor, at least. As they see the full floor as the den, they don't attempt to pee in it.

Lovely story is that we had torrential rain coming down one spring when one of mine was about 10 months old and hadn't had an accident in the house forever. With an open dog door I had gotten accustomed to not paying attention to her pee habits. Well, my girl had come in from outside and was scratching at the basement laundry room door to get in, and I didn't know why. I let her in and she ran and peed on a towel on the floor in there (with an expression of complete relief) . . . when she was out on the deck looking about and desperate and deciding the rain was too much to go out in, the laundry room was the area of the house she chose as "not being part of her den". I'm sure this made complete sense to her as she so rarely goes in there.



Laurelin said:


> It's not just yotes here either. We have owls that are big enough to take toy sized dogs too (not to mention the bobcats, and occasional cougar) But you can hear coyotes howling most nights. I see them very often in the fields next to us, especially when the calves are being born.


In Alberta we have both coyotes and owls. I have had a neighbor lose their Yorkie to a Coyote (on an off leash walk) right in front of them. Another had a Papillon tallon scarred by an Owl - lots of stitches but they didn't lose the pup. Both are concerns especially with the tiniest dogs, and one reason I prefer my dogs above 10 pounds (15-20 being my favored size).



meggels said:


> Question, what is wrong with crating when many say (this is just something I've heard, I'm not personally agreeing or disagreeing) that the majority of time we are gone, dogs just sleep anyways? I'm fairly certain that's what my boxer does (who gets free roam of the house)...





Dog_Shrink said:


> That all depends on many factors. I know my dogs don't just sleep when I'm gone and a lot of how they act while we're gone will depend on breed. Guard breeds will prefer to range their house and patrol, terriers may decide to play the day away. Again it's all about genetic predisposition.


I'm home most all days with my dogs, and when I am gone in the evenings, my family is home. I cannot think of a time period, after 7 a.m., where they sleep for more than 3 hours in a stretch. I have a dog door and they all regularly interrupt their rests to go out to spend time on the deck sunning themselves, to sniff about, going to the back fence to check out the neighbors activities, and to go bird and squirrel watching and chasing - with or without me (but they prefer with me). Right now I am finding the only one that doesn't is my friend's crate loving boy who waits for my cue.



Dog_Shrink said:


> As much as I agree with many of your points of view this I have to just elaborate on a little bit. Dogs in the wild DO den aside of just when they're ready to have pups. When they aren't ranging they do look for den space to keep them protected and feeling safe rom interlopers. It's much safer than plopping down in an open field and sleeping or resting. Maybe not all pack members will choose to go into den to sleep because of century duty or too cramped BUT most will.


Do you think they would shut the door behind them and lock themselves in without control of the key though? I find dogs do deliberately seek out and go into sheltering places at times, especially out in the weather, but I honestly don't know of a wild animal that would feel comfortable without an escape. I found it not that difficult to get my dogs adjusted to the crate . . . . it was the door closed part that caused the most difficulty, and in my mind that is where the difference lies. 

I will fully admit that if *I* will not enter a small space without knowledge of where *my* escape is either AND *I* want full control of it . . . so that could be just where my head is on this topic.

On the idea that crate training is cruel - I believe many have addressed that - if overused it can be but I think some can use it wisely. My preference would be to see crate training be taught as a tool that is used as a last resort after other alternative methods have been given a thorough trial. JMHO

SOB


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

The only problem with crating or isolation is the amount of time the dog spends in that condition. That varies considerably from one dog to another. Too much exercise can also cause irreparable harm to a pup.

It doesn't work out nearly as often as I'd like, but you have to give people credit for some common sense...at least until they prove otherwise.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> In Alberta we have both coyotes and owls. I have had a neighbor lose their Yorkie to a Coyote (on an off leash walk) right in front of them. Another had a Papillon tallon scarred by an Owl - lots of stitches but they didn't lose the pup. Both are concerns especially with the tiniest dogs, and one reason I prefer my dogs above 10 pounds (15-20 being my favored size).


My ideal is about 30 lbs but I make exceptions obviously. Even so, 10, 20, 30, 60 lbs it wouldn't matter here. Coyotes have seriously injured or killed dogs from yorkies to spaniels to pit bulls to my neighbor's golden retriever. 



DJEtzel said:


> I feel... overlooked.


Did you say something?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> I have the experience with another dog that I am currently caring for that is terribly reliant on his crate. He was heavily crated at his breeders for 5 months, and then this continued by his owner. She loved that he came fully crate and potty trained.
> 
> He is almost 5 now and I find he does not have the open space confidense that I would want in a dog - he is constantly headed to his crate as if he is hermitting. I really dislike this, but perhaps others appreciate it. When I read this sentence from Dog Shrink I thought immediately of him.


Is he like this at his own home? My papillon, Crystal, came to me already crate-trained at just over a year old. She had no problem adjusting to wandering the whole main floor of my home and is very confident here, and she was the same way at her breeder's house. However, the breeder told me that when she would have to go away on trips, she'd leave her dogs with various friends. When Crystal was at someone else's home, especially if they had other dogs, she would spend most of the time in her crate away from them. She'd seem like a completely different dog.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Papilove said:


> This post kind of made me laugh a little. The idea behind the more 'generous' confinement of a 'safe room' is VERY subjective. A small, tile bathroom would be a 'generous' safe room for a toy dog, offering room to 'bound round' and release pent up steam and anxiety... not so much for a full-grown rottweiler, at least not my bathroom.
> 
> Common sense when it comes to ANY type of fair-minded, judiciously used TOOL makes the situation work no matter which you employ.
> 
> People who use appropriate safe rooms, people who allow free roam, people who use x-pens, and people who use crates, are all right, so long as they operate under the correct principles. Attempting to 'damn' another for using a tool properly makes YOU look foolish. All attempts to justify one as right and the other as wrong will end up looking silly.


They key word in your statement and in any sort of confinement is USED APPROPRIATELY and COMMON SENSE which unfortunately 90 % of the dog owning populus lacks.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

You're right Dog Shink... it applies to all areas of humanity... but that isn't the fault of the crate, or any other training method. Your method is equally as cruel in the hands of an idiot who doesn't use common sense.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Is he like this at his own home? My papillon, Crystal, came to me already crate-trained at just over a year old. She had no problem adjusting to wandering the whole main floor of my home and is very confident here, and she was the same way at her breeder's house. However, the breeder told me that when she would have to go away on trips, she'd leave her dogs with various friends. When Crystal was at someone else's home, especially if they had other dogs, she would spend most of the time in her crate away from them. She'd seem like a completely different dog.


He is better at her home than here. Even then, he's more of a hider and less of an explorer there than my dogs are even when we visit her home. Out on leash he is well socialized and friendly (touch of reserve to his personality) - he just really likes his crate, and that is personally, just not something that I like. I tend to like those that want to explore though and I encourage that. If I see reserve in a dog I tend to REALLY encourage exploring to combat that. Personally, I think HE would have been a dog better done by without so much time in his crate.

SOB


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Papilove said:


> You're right Dog Shink... it applies to all areas of humanity... but that isn't the fault of the crate, or any other training method. Your method is equally as cruel in the hands of an idiot who doesn't use common sense.


Not entirely because at least the dog is afforded the space to move and develop and get mental stimulation so even if the owner is a complete idiot that abuses the confinement the dog still can grow and develop properly physically anyway.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> He is better at her home than here. Even then, he's more of a hider and less of an explorer there than my dogs are even when we visit her home. Out on leash he is well socialized and friendly (touch of reserve to his personality) - he just really likes his crate, and that is personally, just not something that I like. I tend to like those that want to explore though and I encourage that. If I see reserve in a dog I tend to REALLY encourage exploring to combat that. Personally, I think HE would have been a dog better done by without so much time in his crate.
> 
> SOB


Absolutely agree. All those things you mentioned are prime examples of a dog who has become co-dependant of his crate,which is then transferred to his leash. Even tho he may be well socialized on lead it is still a control element that he depends on for confidence. When put in a new social situation he would rather withdraw to his crate than risk interacting with the new. I also dislike that. A small amount of his in bred temperament and personality plays a part in all this of course but it is highly exacerbated by the over crating and never givin the change to properly develop confidence and explore during those formidable months.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Since you chose to focus on the potty training end of it let's expand on that. Teaching a dog proper potty habits is NOT about correcting accidents but providing the dog with proper choices when it comes to potty. Just because you let a dog potty in the house on paper or pads does not mean you're moving backwards in the effort to potty train. It means you're providing the dog with a CHOICE to go in the proper place rather than to be forced to either hold it (which they can't) or lay in their mess if their owner is neglectful. By teaching that there is a proper place to go it is easier to transpose that place to another location with out the discomfort or stress of disappointing their owner or the discomfort of having to hold it longer than they are capable of. Dogs don't really understand contrasting issues but they do recognise acceptable versus unaccptable dependant upon our reaction to an event. I really wish that more people would realise that it's about making proper choices rather than complete avoidance of pottying in the house. Owners that never let their dog make choices and think and reason what is the best situation for them often end up with a dog that is always looking to their owner for direction which is not good. A pup needs to learn how to think for themselves, act by themselves, and build confidence. A dog tha doesn't learn how to think and make acceptable decisions think is always unsure and under confident and I think we all know what happens when you have a dog taht lacks confidence. It opens you up to a myriad of many different behavioral issues. .


My point wasn't really to discuss what other methods there are to potty train, nor was it to suggest that crate training is the only way that works. There are other ways, and I respect that everyone has the choice in how they want to train their puppy. This is not debate about which method works best.

My point was when crate training properly, and not leaving the dog in the crate so long that he can't hold his bladder and bowels, it doesn't cause traumatic emotional damage. I have never suggested that in order to potty train a dog with a crate you need to make them hold it longer than they are capable of. In fact, I agree with you, that is cruel! However, you have yet to explain to me how the proper use of a crate to potty train is cruel or causes any trauma or emotional damage.

As far as dogs that lack confidence, that's a completely different issue. I'll compare this to socialization. Just because you've exposed a pup to men doesn't mean you don't have to introduce him to women. Just because he's comfortable in the pet store doesn't mean he'll be confident and bold in a parking garage. But getting him comfortable with men and pet stores doesn't automatically make him shy around women and parking garages. Just because I train my dog to be comfortable in his crate and use it as a tool to reduce anxiety doesn't mean he's anxious everywhere besides his crate, nor does it mean I never bother to build his confidence in places other than his crate. He prefers his crate to middle of the floor because that's his own preference, it doesn't mean he fears open spaces. In fact, he does spend plenty of time relaxing on the couch and on the floor, he just generally prefers his crate. If my dog was feeling fearful and unconfident outside of his crate, I would condition him to feel more and more confident in that situation, just the same as I do when he feels unconfident in any other situation. It's not an either or situation. Those that don't train their dogs to feel confident outside of the crate are at fault, not the crate.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Wow so much conversation since I was here this morning, I had lots of posts I wanted to reply to but as I kept reading I found another and forgot about the previous.

But I will say this...I know myself I am NOT a dog trainer, I am learning as I go and reading and finding out as much as I can. For the average dog owner a crate is the best way to keep our dogs safe when we are not there because we are NOT trainers. Heck I cant get my dog to leave my cats alone and I have one that seeks out plastic to chew it...In case anyone has missed my many threads on these. I am working on this but its safer for my pets to be crated when I am not home.

As for potty training, we got maggie when she was 5 months old and she was left all day untrained at her previous owners house, she counter/table surfed, and she pottied where ever she wanted when she came to us...at that point the only thing we knew to do was crate train...she hated the crate at first and cried and whined when she went in there (the bigger crate) our trainer told us over the phone (the one I complained about in another thread) to cover it...worked great she has been fine with it since...she doesnt love her crate like some dogs and would rather be out but she doesnt hate it either (infact I was out and just came home a few minutes ago and both my dogs are still sleeping in the crates...if they really hated it they would be whining to get out)...but I dont have that option still with her.

As for Bella she was not crate trained when we got her. Bella was not house trained either, she was paper trained but still peed on small carpets in the house. I got rid of her papers and crate trained her, I also tethered her to me during the day and she is now fully trained at 7 months.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Pretty much past Shack and Pete, all our dogs have been crate trained or confined to some extent. I've never had one that runs and hides in there like you are talking about. To me that indicates that crates are working just fine and not harming the dogs in the slightest.


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## jnite (Jan 18, 2009)

I think crates have thier place, and it's all about personal preference and experiences. I for one am soo glad I crate trained Nicky from a pup, it made it sooo much easier when she had to be put on bed rest when she hurt her back. If she hadn't been crate trained I may have had a real problem.

I crate train all of my dogs now, even the farm dogs that are outside for the most part. This way I know that if they get hurt or other circumstances come up I can use the crate if it is needed.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I have and I have mixed feelings about a lot of it. Yes most packs are fluid and ever changing. Members come and go, leave or die, nothing is for life in a pack situation, dog OR wolf (and BTW there are other packs to watch aside of wolf. Cape hunting dog, hyena, african painted plains dog etc. It is highly fluid as I'm sure Nekomi can testify to now that she has had her visit to wolf park. Packs aren't like marriage. It certainly isn't for life.


wolf packs in the WILD are pretty stable. captives are a far different story.

but when referencing dog behavior the ONLY relevant ones to consider are feral domestics. if you want to know how a dog will act sans human interaction..you look at a longitudinal study of feral domestics. that's plain logic and trying to bring other canines into it is silly. 

and for your information

Hyenas are NOT DOGS. they arent even CANINES.  they follow a matrilineal structure and their sexual dimorphism favors females...


a crate is not a den. its a holding area. a smaller version of a kennel. that is all.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> He CHOSE to go in there and of course I'm not going to say "NO DON'T GO IN THE CRATE!"
> 
> He offered the behavior and got his own reward from it, and since I have no qualms with him choosing the crate, I rewarded it also. Then put it on a cue.
> 
> ...


you're putting emotional emphasis on the word "dependant" that i didnt intend.

your dog is dependant on a lot of things..all "being dependant on a crate" means is that the dog is conditioned to it. to accept and to feel comfort there. i meant nothing beyond that. calling it a "den" is innaccurate. its not a den...its a crate.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you're putting emotional emphasis on the word "dependant" that i didnt intend.
> 
> your dog is dependant on a lot of things..all "being dependant on a crate" means is that the dog is conditioned to it. to accept and to feel comfort there. i meant nothing beyond that. calling it a "den" is innaccurate. its not a den...its a crate.


"Dependent" implies not being able to manage without. Feeling comfortable in a crate doesn't make a dog dependent on it.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> "Dependent" implies not being able to manage without. Feeling comfortable in a crate doesn't make a dog dependent on it.


some dogs do become dependant on it in the sense your thinking.

dogs are also dependant on leashes because of leash laws. 

dogs are dependant on crates because of their humans. dependant on it because that's how YOU as the human mandate they must be.

the dog's saftey and security are dependant on the crate. not "omg omg omg i cant leave here or im going to die!!! omg omg"


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> some dogs do become dependant on it in the sense your thinking.
> 
> dogs are also dependant on leashes because of leash laws.
> 
> ...


Yep, that's exactly what most of us have been saying. People neglect, abuse, and generally mess up their dogs, not tools. So blaming a tool such as crates is pretty silly.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Yep, that's exactly what most of us have been saying. People neglect, abuse, and generally mess up their dogs, not tools. So blaming a tool such as crates is pretty silly.


yup. and i was agreeing with you. my only beefs with crates are personal ones...i.e. they dont fit my lifestyle. the times ive had to crate train fosters have been really difficult because of how my life is scheduled. they limit my ability to work. the other beef i have is people calling it a den...but that's more of a anal retentive student's problem than an actual problem with people using crates RESPONSIBLY.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Pretty much past Shack and Pete, all our dogs have been crate trained or confined to some extent. I've never had one that runs and hides in there like you are talking about. *To me that indicates that crates are working just fine and not harming the dogs in the slightest*.


This confuses me. How does running and hiding in his crate mean that the crate is working fine? If anything it shows me that the crate was over used.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> wolf packs in the WILD are pretty stable. captives are a far different story.
> 
> but when referencing dog behavior the ONLY relevant ones to consider are feral domestics. if you want to know how a dog will act sans human interaction..you look at a longitudinal study of feral domestics. that's plain logic and trying to bring other canines into it is silly.
> 
> ...


So do painted african dogs. Does that mean they aren't canine either?


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

To be honest, I am utterly horrified that there are so many of you that will willingly defend your position about crating when your dog spends more than 1/3rd of its life trapped in a cage! YES IT IS A CAGE!! You can call it the Taj Mahal and it won't change what it essentially is - a CAGE!

A dog has muscles and a skeletal structure that requires movement. Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years for various behaviors, sensory capabilities, and physical attributes - let them use thes attributes.

A dog is a dog, not a toy to tie up or lock up day in and day out.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> This confuses me. How does running and hiding in his crate mean that the crate is working fine? If anything it shows me that the crate was over used.


I think she was referring to how her dogs don't run and hide which indicates that her crate training is fine and doesn't harm her dogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> So do painted african dogs. Does that mean they aren't canine either?


no african wild dogs dont have much sexual dimorphism.

Hyenas are a family of their own, the Hyaenidae. They're more closely related to cats than dogs, but their closest relatives are the Herpestidae. as in weasels and such...


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

FKAPRSOA said:


> To be honest, I am utterly horrified that there are so many of you that will willingly defend your position about crating when your dog spends more than 1/3rd of its life trapped in a cage! YES IT IS A CAGE!! You can call it the Taj Mahal and it won't change what it essentially is - a CAGE!
> 
> A dog has muscles and a skeletal structure that requires movement. Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years for various behaviors, sensory capabilities, and physical attributes - let them use thes attributes.
> 
> A dog is a dog, not a toy to tie up or lock up day in and day out.


Wow, just because this is a discussion about crates and not exercise doesn't mean that nobody's dog here gets exercise. What makes you think that crating a dog while you're gone equals not getting exercise when they come home?


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

Nargle said:


> Wow, just because this is a discussion about crates and not exercise doesn't mean that nobody's dog here gets exercise. What makes you think that crating a dog while you're gone equals not getting exercise when they come home?


I am amazed at your interpretation of what I have said.   

I have not referred to exercise but movement. MOVEMENT - muscles moving. 

A skeletal system and muscles supporting MOVEMENT. Standing requires movement and the same skeletal support, do you consider this exercise?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> dogs are dependant on crates because of their humans. dependant on it because that's how YOU as the human mandate they must be.


I didn't mandate anything.

He told me he likes the crate by going in it on his own. So, of course, I'm going to allow it as it hurts nothing.

He's not forced to stay in, the door to the thing is never closed.

Nothing sound like a mandate to me.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> If you're leaving them alone for 5 minuntes and you come in and there's no destruction and you praise then obviously you're showing the dog you're haoppy that things are the way you left them.


Your telling me that if you leave a dog alone for a while, come back and nothing is torn up, praise the dog for not being destructive and the dog is going to associate that praise with not being destructive? 

All these years of preaching how critical timing is when it comes to reward and correction. Heck I am going to start telling my clients to reward the sit five minutes later, heck the dog will figure it out, no problem.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> I think she was referring to how her dogs don't run and hide which indicates that her crate training is fine and doesn't harm her dogs.


Exactly what I said and meant.



JohnnyBandit said:


> Your telling me that if you leave a dog alone for a while, come back and nothing is torn up, praise the dog for not being destructive and the dog is going to associate that praise with not being destructive?
> 
> All these years of preaching how critical timing is when it comes to reward and correction. Heck I am going to start telling my clients to reward the sit five minutes later, heck the dog will figure it out, no problem.


See I don't get that part either. I don't think a dog CAN understand you are praising them for not being destructive.

Oh and I should add my dogs' 'crates' are meant for 75 lb dogs and you can fit a dog bed in them and still have room.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I didn't mandate anything.
> 
> He told me he likes the crate by going in it on his own. So, of course, I'm going to allow it as it hurts nothing.
> 
> ...



then its not being used as a crate. its just a bed. i have several crates. Bolo has one(the door is removed because if i closed the door on her in a crate, disaster would ensue)

she hangs out in there occasionally..its just another bed.


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## Dreadog (Jun 12, 2009)

I do not think anyone here has said their dog will spend 1/3 of its life in a cage/crate. I think everyone strives to allow their dog free run and/or more space. Hoku is currently crated 8-9 hours in a day (sometimes), about 180 days a year, and I would like to change that. 

We have no intention of using the crate her whole life, she is almost never crated on weekends, or during school days off/holidays. We have learned that that at 17 months she can generally manage about 5 hours unsupervised in the house, anything more then that, and she will chew things and get into trouble. When we are home, she NEVER chews inappropriately. Hoku is still a puppy, and I am very confident that someday she will be trust worthy in the house, hopefully sooner rather then later. 

I agree that crating is not ideal, but i think it is often the best answer, and better then the alternative for many people and dogs. I am a dog lover, my husband is not, if I did not have the crate options for Hoku, I am not certain what I would have done when my husband and I had to return to work. He would not have tolerated a destroyed house or a destroyed bathroom. I would never take Hoku to a shelter, but without the crate option, she well may have been rehomed.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> then its not being used as a crate. its just a bed. i have several crates. Bolo has one(the door is removed because if i closed the door on her in a crate, disaster would ensue)
> 
> she hangs out in there occasionally..its just another bed.



Somewhere in the back of my mind, I meant to ask for a definition of "crating" and "crate training" 

but I thought it was a question in the OMG-double facepalm-because-the-question-is-so-full of-so-much-fail, phail, and epic-phail-fail-haxorz-fail category


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Somewhere in the back of my mind, I meant to ask for a definition of "crating" and "crate training"
> 
> but I thought it was a question in the OMG-double facepalm-because-the-question-is-so-full of-so-much-fail, phail, and epic-phail-fail-haxorz-fail category


crating-confining your dog to a crate while you are away or otherwise occupied

crate training-conditioning the dog to accept confinement in a crate.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> crating-confining your dog to a crate while you are away or otherwise occupied
> 
> crate training-conditioning the dog to accept confinement in a crate.



Then you're right - I'm not crating.

Note to self: Ask for a definition (or track down zim aka girl who spends too much time on the forum with her 6000 posts in 2 years ) before entering discussion LOL


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I called crates a den. And I don't think it is BS.

First of all....... I cannot speak for all parts of the country... But where I live, feral dogs (not wolves, not coyotes, not foxes) den. And they den year round. They do move around alot depending on food availability. But if they are in an area any length of time, they are going to den. Sometimes it is under tree roots, a fallen log, under a bush. This being Florida they most often have to dig their own. A favorite spot is under a large palmetto bush. I think for a couple of reasons. First the palmetto roots will keep the top from caving in. Second, palmettos grow on high well drained ground. Less chance of flooding.

As far as feral dogs forming packs, I might not exactly call them packs, but they do form social groups and will work together. With some groups you can see leadership, with others not so much. 

I grew up in the cattle business and have been a licensed nuisance wildlife trapper my entire adult life. I have come across a feral dog or two.


Now for pet dogs....
Does your dog have a favorite spot they like to lay? 
Does your dog sleep under the bed? 
Behind the couch? 
In a corner?
Does your dog dig a hole in the back yard that it likes to lay in? 

Are these anything other than denning behaviors?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Then you're right - I'm not crating.
> 
> Note to self: Ask for a definition (or track down zim aka girl who spends too much time on the forum with her 6000 posts in 2 years ) before entering discussion LOL


naw you dont wanna talk to THIS bozo.  i dunno nuttin bout squat.


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## LaurenE (Mar 16, 2010)

KBLover said:


> Then you're right - I'm not crating.
> 
> Note to self: Ask for a definition (or track down zim aka girl who spends too much time on the forum with her 6000 posts in 2 years ) before entering discussion LOL


Thank you lol. I've been reading and re-reading this thread trying to wrap my brain around a reply and have been having so much difficulty without having a definition haha. As a behavior analyst I can't function without behavioral definitions--its so sad!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Exactly what I said and meant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don't get it, because it makes no sense. 

We all know that if we find something the dog has damaged earlier while not in our presence, if we scold or otherwise correct the dog, it will have NO idea as to why we corrected it. 

If you leave a dog alone for a period of time, it does nothing, and you come back and praise it, the dog is not going to have a CLUE what you praised it for.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> naw you dont wanna talk to THIS bozo.  i dunno nuttin bout squat.


Hahaha, I'll take my chances. I'm feeling brave 

Note 2 to self: Don't find zim if I have a question about squats, she knows *nuttin'* about it


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

I haven't read this entire thread, and I really don't intend to. I have no problem with people using their dogs' crates as a helpful tool. I don't really know where we would be in regards to housetraining without the use of a crate. I also really don't think that people who work 8-9 hours and keep their dog crated during that time are hurting them in any way. Now, if when they get home they don't let the dog exert the energy that has built up during that period of confinement, then yes they should own a cat.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I called crates a den. And I don't think it is BS.
> 
> First of all....... I cannot speak for all parts of the country... But where I live, feral dogs (not wolves, not coyotes, not foxes) den. And they den year round. They do move around alot depending on food availability. But if they are in an area any length of time, they are going to den. Sometimes it is under tree roots, a fallen log, under a bush. This being Florida they most often have to dig their own. A favorite spot is under a large palmetto bush. I think for a couple of reasons. First the palmetto roots will keep the top from caving in. Second, palmettos grow on high well drained ground. Less chance of flooding.
> 
> ...


nope. she follows me around all day. and only lays in sunny spots in the house.

she digs holes in the ground but not to "den"..she digs them to hunt the foxes and ***** that try to get into the trash. she'll dig a hole and cover herself with dirt and when she sees one she'll explode into chase mode.

ive seen quite a few ferals myself and ive yet to see a real den. your experience is anecdotal, mine is too..so im not really going by that. im going by what ive studied and read of many many different people's scientific works in my school's biology database. id link you but id have to do it from a campus computer and its summer break..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LaurenE said:


> Thank you lol. I've been reading and re-reading this thread trying to wrap my brain around a reply and have been having so much difficulty without having a definition haha. As a behavior analyst I can't function without behavioral definitions--its so sad!



Heh - I think it should be a new requirement.

The first posts of a debate topic should be fill with nothing but definitions (and agreeing on them) of the relevant terms before the debate begins.

Maybe I'll just start doing that. Popping in a debate post and ask "what is the definition of all these terms?"


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> nope. she follows me around all day. and only lays in sunny spots in the house.
> 
> she digs holes in the ground but not to "den"..she digs them to hunt the foxes and ***** that try to get into the trash. she'll dig a hole and cover herself with dirt and when she sees one she'll explode into chase mode.
> 
> ive seen quite a few ferals myself and ive yet to see a real den. your experience is anecdotal, mine is too..so im not really going by that. im going by what ive studied and read of many many different people's scientific works in my school's biology database. id link you but id have to do it from a campus computer and its summer break..


I don't see how my experience is anecdotal. I may not have written a paper on the matter but I have used the information I have learned over the years to aid in removal efforts. 

I would like to see the studies though. I know there was a study on a group of feral dogs in Alaska in which they exhibited similar behaviors to wolves. Only one female in the group breeding, the entire group caring for the young, etc. I have never seen anything like that down here.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

Well this thread had been an education and 1/2. 
I was unaware how polarizing this topic was. I'm really glad I asked the question as it has helped me make some important beginning decisions.
I appreciate everyone's opinion and insights.

First, there are many ideas on how to train and care for your dog. 
It seems there are several schools of thought re crates...Crate training to teach a dog not to go in the house and creating a safe haven den for the dog to be in and continued crating to keep a dog from ruining your furniture, hurting other animals in the home etc. 
On the other end very minimal use of a crate esp past young puppyhood teaching your dog to make the entire house their safe haven/den. (this feels right for me)

My goal is to train the dog obviously to pee/poo outside first and give them freedom in one room and overtime work on giving them full reign of the house.

Based on what I have read, my initial plans are:
I will have the crate there and let the dog use if for short periods to sleep and rest. Then I will allow the dog to go in and out of the crate at will. I do see the value that the dog will have the crate available and be comfortable with it esp when travelling, visits out of town etc.
At first, I plan on having a safe room (probably my kitchen which is fullsized) that the puppy can start out in with the crate there and an outside bed so if they want to use it as a sleep area they can but if they need to walk around they can do that to. I may put a larger pen in the kitchen with the crate inside the pen....Thoughts on this?

It doesn't sit well with me to leave a dog alone daily for 8+ hours esp in a crate so I also plan on using dog walkers on the day's I am unable to be home within a 4-6 hour period at least in the first year and I will have to play this out over time.
My work schedule is always different...Some days I work half days, some days, morning and evening so I have a couple of hours in between that I can come home and play with and walk the dog. Other days I am gone all day 8-12 hours when I will employ a dog walker. I also have down periods where I will be home for several days.

I know the thought of the dog and the reality will be different but I hope to be at least basically educated with a game plan when I bring the pup home.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

FKAPRSOA said:


> I am amazed at your interpretation of what I have said.
> 
> I have not referred to exercise but movement. MOVEMENT - muscles moving.
> 
> A skeletal system and muscles supporting MOVEMENT. Standing requires movement and the same skeletal support, do you consider this exercise?


and my dog(s) can move around in their crates, they can stretch out lengthwise, they can lay on their sides. I fail to see how being crated for 4-5hrs, when they sleep, is any different than them sleeping if they were loose. 
Doesn't matter anyway, I do what is best for my dogs and my situation, nothing anyone here says will change my mind


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I don't see how my experience is anecdotal. I may not have written a paper on the matter but I have used the information I have learned over the years to aid in removal efforts.
> 
> I would like to see the studies though. I know there was a study on a group of feral dogs in Alaska in which they exhibited similar behaviors to wolves. Only one female in the group breeding, the entire group caring for the young, etc. I have never seen anything like that down here.


anecdote-the act of informing by verbal report

you told your experience. i told mine. the studies back up their findings with physical evidence setting them apart from being anecdotal. if youd like ill pm you my school email and you can email me a reminder to send you the information. i wont be able to check it until the semester starts. and if i dont have a reminder...ill forget.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> anecdote-the act of informing by verbal report
> 
> you told your experience. i told mine. the studies back up their findings with physical evidence setting them apart from being anecdotal. if youd like ill pm you my school email and you can email me a reminder to send you the information. i wont be able to check it until the semester starts. and if i dont have a reminder...ill forget.


True.... you got me there. I was thinking a different meaning for that word. 

Sure send me your email.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Okay, I just have to point something out, about "crates being dens" and "feral dogs denning etc."

Feral means the following: ...not domesticated or cultivated... That's the definition I like the best- Everyone is saying "dogs do den, look at the _feral _dogs" Umm- Based on that definition feral dogs would be closer to "wolves" and other wild dogs; Having more wild instincts then our _domesticated_ lap dogs. Feral dogs actually _use_ their instincts to hunt and such; Sure Donatello exhibits some natural instincts, but they are only a flicker or a _hint_ of something more primitive, and then he's back to pushing me off the bed... 

I do not agree with crates being dens... I apologize for continuing to aid this discussion off topic, but it's something that I _really_ needed to say. lmao


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Did you say something?


Haha, yes. About 4 pages back now, and not worth going back to, but DAMN this thread moved fast.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

kas said:


> At first, I plan on having a safe room (probably my kitchen which is fullsized) that the puppy can start out in with the crate there and an outside bed so if they want to use it as a sleep area they can but if they need to walk around they can do that to. I may put a larger pen in the kitchen with the crate inside the pen....Thoughts on this?.


This was my mother's method of raising pups, and is the one I use as well - but I added the crate inside the pen as there was no such thing when Mom raised pups. I find it tried and true.

You did forget one thing . . . the foam matt on the floor so you can spend many nights sleeping there while the pup is young (either that or you can move it into bed with you immediately and just get that over with.).















































.... O.K. O.K. ..... you don't have to do that ..... that's just for us softies.

SOB


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

FKAPRSOA said:


> To be honest, I am utterly horrified that there are so many of you that will willingly defend your position about crating when your dog spends more than 1/3rd of its life trapped in a cage! YES IT IS A CAGE!! You can call it the Taj Mahal and it won't change what it essentially is - a CAGE!
> 
> A dog has muscles and a skeletal structure that requires movement. Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years for various behaviors, sensory capabilities, and physical attributes - let them use thes attributes.
> 
> A dog is a dog, not a toy to tie up or lock up day in and day out.



Oh please. Now, that's just utterly silly.  ALL 3 of my dogs use their crates of their own volition, with only one of them requiring a closed gate (for her safety) while I am gone at work. She is able to stand and move around in her very large crate, which has a memory-foam mattress, matress cover, fitted sheet, and down quilt and pillows. I work 8 hours, but due to the nature of my job, there are 3 or more days a week where I drop off Injunction papers at the Court House, which means I get home at least one hour earlier. Drive time is about 25 min. I work from midnight to 8:00am, so my dogs would be sleeping even if I was home. 

I spend 3-4 hours with my dogs outside (at home and away from home) each and every day (weather permitting) M-F before I go to bed. They are lean and muscular, very athletic, and physically fit. Sleeping in their crates at night has no ill effects on them, physically or psychologically. Maddy is 9 yrs. old. She earned freedom of her crate at 6 months of age, but I left it up, crate door open, and she continued to use it whenever I left the house. Otherwise, she sleeps with me in my bed, as do the other two. On the weekends when I'm home, all 3 of them sleep during the day. We run the beach at night, and get in social walks in the neighborhood and at the park, often stopping off at one of the numerous bar and grilles to have a bite to eat and socialize (they all provide water in bowls for dogs who accompany their people). That's HARDLY 1/3 of their lives, much less being_ "trapped"_ in a cage! Your argument just doesn't hold up.


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

poodleholic said:


> Oh please. Now, that's just utterly silly. ALL 3 of my dogs use their crates of their own volition, with only one of them requiring a closed gate (for her safety) while I am gone at work. She is able to stand and move around in her very large crate, which has a memory-foam mattress, matress cover, fitted sheet, and down quilt and pillows. I work 8 hours, but due to the nature of my job, there are 3 or more days a week where I drop off Injunction papers at the Court House, which means I get home at least one hour earlier. Drive time is about 25 min. I work from midnight to 8:00am, so my dogs would be sleeping even if I was home.
> 
> I spend 3-4 hours with my dogs outside (at home and away from home) each and every day (weather permitting) M-F before I go to bed. They are lean and muscular, very athletic, and physically fit. Sleeping in their crates at night has no ill effects on them, physically or psychologically. Maddy is 9 yrs. old. She earned freedom of her crate at 6 months of age, but I left it up, crate door open, and she continued to use it whenever I left the house. Otherwise, she sleeps with me in my bed, as do the other two. On the weekends when I'm home, all 3 of them sleep during the day. We run the beach at night, and get in social walks in the neighborhood and at the park, often stopping off at one of the numerous bar and grilles to have a bite to eat and socialize (they all provide water in bowls for dogs who accompany their people). That's HARDLY 1/3 of their lives, much less being_ "trapped"_ in a cage! Your argument just doesn't hold up.


I find the fact that your argument, which is _purely_ based on your _individual _circumstance to be illogical and silly and it certainly holds less logic than anything I have said...so as for a point not standing up...... 

In fact, most who crate seem to only view the debate from a personal veiwpoint. "my dog sleeps all day anyway, so why not in a crate" "my dog willingly goes into the crate, I don't even have to coax him" "I only crate my dog because she has behavioural issues that I can't resolve" "dogs like dens"..... 

A dog is not a stuffed toy. Using a crate, in _most *_ instances, is purely for the benefit of the human. *There will ALWAYS be a reason to crate but a crate should only be used for a temporary measure or for training, not as a permanent utility unless the most extreme circumstance exists.

Sorry, But I can not see too many circumstances in this thread that require legitimate regular crating. 

A DOG DOES NOT BELONG IN A CAGE!

Dress it up anyway you like, you are no better than some of the 3rd world country zoo keepers. You are further supressing the natural instincts in your dogs. For different puproses, we have to keep them confined to a yard or house, and this is something that we can not personally control as the laws are made by others. In your own home though it is YOU who has the choice to further restrict your dog or not.

Within reason, I can understand the argument regarding furnishings. I am house proud! I LOVE having a beautiful home. Guess what, I ran a rescue from my home for more than 5 years and every rescue lived inside. The ONLY time I crated a dog was for medical purposes or puppies who were prone to getting into all sorts of dangerous situations.

I spent money and time ensuring my dogs and the rescues, including BLIND AND DEAF RESCUES, had access to a safe environment. Not only a safe environment, but an environment that prevented destruction of my home or furnishings. Over 55 dogs have come through my home, and yet I only crated on the rare occasion. I had dogs who suffered SA, ADHD, broken limbs, blindness, deafness, allergies, barking issues, anxiety related issues and millions of other issues and I did NOT crate these dogs as a routine thing.

In Australia, I belong to a huge network of breeders, dog owners and rescuers. We do not routinely crate dogs. Are are dogs different? Are our trainig methods different? Do we do things better? No, we just haven't accepted this obsession with caging our dogs as those in the US have done!

STOP CAGING YOUR DOGS. Make the effort to create a safe environment for them. Spend the time. Spend the money. Talk to trainers. Talk to behaviourlists. 

Stop treating your dogs like they BELONG in cages because they don't!


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

As an added note, the reason why I quoted a third is from the fact that 8 hours out of 24 hours IS more than one third of each day. My statements are NOT directed or meant personally, but as an 'overview' or generalised thought about the various comments in this thread.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

FKAPRSOA said:


> Stop treating your dogs like they BELONG in cages because they don't!


My dog belongs where I put him. You are entitled to your opinion, but unless you are prepared to buy his food and pay the vet bills, I value your opinion as worth exactly what I paid for it.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> My dog belongs where I put him. You are entitled to your opinion, but unless you are prepared to buy his food and pay the vet bills, I value your opinion as worth exactly what I paid for it.


Me, too! 

Sheesh. Some people.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I stayed out out of this because I knew it would get down to this and since I have no immediate plans to move to Austrailia my personal thought on crates being a fine tool to help with dog care shall remain for the most part unsullied. I will now bow out and continue to lurk as the thread may disintegrate completely with bad manners etc.

Good Luck to those continuing with the crates are good fight.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> This was my mother's method of raising pups, and is the one I use as well - but I added the crate inside the pen as there was no such thing when Mom raised pups. I find it tried and true.
> 
> You did forget one thing . . . the foam matt on the floor so you can spend many nights sleeping there while the pup is young (either that or you can move it into bed with you immediately and just get that over with.).
> 
> ...



Thanks! I' m sure I will have more questions soon.


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

poodleholic said:


> Me, too!
> 
> Sheesh. Some people.


i agree...its interesting when someone has such a vested interest in how my dog and i live. it works for us. she chooses to go into her crate everyday whether the door is open or closed.

oh well..i guess there is no convincing some people.

meanwhile my abused dog is napping in her crate and taking breaks for her frozen peanut buttery kongs...poor thing!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

FKAPRSOA said:


> I find the fact that your argument, which is _purely_ based on your _individual _circumstance to be illogical and silly and it certainly holds less logic than anything I have said...so as for a point not standing up......


As is your argument. That is really all we can do, look and observe our own dogs. Crating can work and work well, just like tethering, kenneling or even giving free roam. I have crated and will crate my dogs. It's never been intended to be long term or short term, I just do what works for my dogs. Mia is still crated but my other dogs in the past were almost all out of the crate phase by 14 months. Mia may never be. The crate is what works for Mia in my small apartment. Pretty much end of story. 

How do you go about measuring quality of a dog's life? I know people whose dogs lie around the house all day and aren't crated then I know some people that hunt or do sports and work with their dogs but use crates. Which is better? Which dog is living a more fulfilled life? 

In the end, people keep dogs in different manners. Just because it is not the way YOU would keep a dog, doesn't mean it's cruel or not ethical. If the dog has food, water, vet care, exercise, etc, then that is okay by me.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

FKAPRSOA said:


> I find the fact that your argument, which is _purely_ based on your _individual _circumstance to be illogical and silly and it certainly holds less logic than anything I have said...so as for a point not standing up......
> 
> In fact, most who crate seem to only view the debate from a personal veiwpoint. "my dog sleeps all day anyway, so why not in a crate" "my dog willingly goes into the crate, I don't even have to coax him" "I only crate my dog because she has behavioural issues that I can't resolve" "dogs like dens".....
> 
> ...


I'm trying my best not to be offended by this...still trying... Anyways, I'm going to say what I say when I get into a heated political debate. That's your opinion. Crating your dog does not equate to being a third world zoo.

Also- I find it ironic you would call someone's argument illogical. 



FKAPRSOA said:


> Dress it up anyway you like, you are no better than some of the 3rd world country zoo keepers. You are further supressing the natural instincts in your dogs. For different puproses, we have to keep them confined to a yard or house, and this is something that we can not personally control as the laws are made by others. In your own home though it is YOU who has the choice to further restrict your dog or not.


argumentum ad hominem



FKAPRSOA said:


> STOP CAGING YOUR DOGS. Make the effort to create a safe environment for them. Spend the time. Spend the money. Talk to trainers. Talk to behaviourlists.
> 
> Stop treating your dogs like they BELONG in cages because they don't!


argumentum ad misericordiam

There is no such thing as more logic. Only the absence of it. You have not met the burden of proof to render your argument true and if you haven't notice you are arguing from the same platform of personal experience and individual circumstance 

I feel a little better


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Well I guess I wont even mention I keep my kitties in a CAGE...and its not a crate...its a cage...like I said I have a JRT. Caging and crating at my house is a must


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You know why I love my crates? Because they keep my dogs out of trouble. They keep my dogs safe. And yes, they are convenient for ME.

At one point in my life I had two GSDs, was working 16 hour days with almost NO sleep time in between (we're talking 2 hours...a nap) and when I was at home, I did three things. I took my dogs to kennel club, I ate, and I slept.

There were some days that my dogs had to be kenneled for almost 12 hours at a time. I was lucky that my mother worked just 3 blocks away and she could come to let my dogs out to go potty and some days, feed them lunch. They were NOT trustworthy outside of their kennels.

This had to go on for a few months, and I HATED it, but when I came home from working 10 PM - 6 AM and then 8 AM until whenever the work was done at the other job, instead of SLEEPING like my body was telling me to do, I let my dogs out, pottied them, loaded them in the car, and spent the next 2-4 hours at my kennel club, training them.

We went home, I made myself something to eat, the dogs slept on the bed, I got up early to play ball with them and take them for a walk, and then we did it all over again.

You know why else I like crates? In the event of a fire, a fireman can go RIGHT to my dogs kennels and let them out (I keep leashes attached to crates) or they can just pick up the whole damn thing and out they go. There's no searching for a hiding, terrified pet.

I'll continue to use crates in the same manner. Strauss is 6 years old, and I still crate him if I have to go to a job unless Jon is home. Always will. My dogs get out, they play, they train, they work.

Nobody's dying or has atrophied muscles because they spent 8 hours in a crate (a properly sized one).


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Well ... I just think it's a personal matter entirely and completely dependent upon individual circumstances and needs.

I think it's totally necessary to crate-train all dogs because you never know when confinement will be necessary in their lives and it should be something that they should be desensitized to as much as possible so as to cause as little stress as possible.

However, my preference is that during the normal course of the day, a dog not be crated at all. But that is not always possible in everyone's particular circumstance. As I said, it's completely dependent upon individual preference and situations.

My dog has free roam throughout my house at all times no matter what. She is crate-trained and always has been. She hardly ever uses her crate. She sleeps with me every night and rides in the car with a seatbelt harness. She is not destructive in the house and is housebroken, so she has free roam. She is normally not left for more than 4 hours home alone, but for times when she is, she is still left to roam the house at her free will. That's MY dog and MY situation, though. And I am very lucky and I realize this.

BUT ... consider a dog like Mia (sorry Laurelin ) ... Mia is a pistol! We all know that from Laurelin's very detailed and entertaining stories. I think that Mia delights in being a pistol, too!  Mia simply cannot be trusted to have free roam in the house. That doesn't make Mia a bad dog, nor does it make Laurelin a bad dog owner. It simply makes Mia a different kind of dog with a different set of circumstances that require different handling and management - for her own safety, for Laurelin's peace of mind and for the safety of the household.

Everyone has their own situation that they have to manage in their own way. We are all dog lovers here. None of us are cruel to our animals. We all do our very best by them, and most of us treat them better than many humans are treated in this world. 

You know, when my youngest child was a toddler, she was a major handful! When she was 6 months old she started climbing out of her crib and carseat. She started walking at 7 months old. She was go-go-go all the time! When we would go shopping she would scream to be let out of the stroller and would eventually wriggle her way out, then run and hide in the clothing racks. At one point, I bought one of those child leashes that velcro'd around her wrist and mine. My husband HATED that, told me I was treating her like a dog. I was doing what I had to do to keep her safe. It was a management technique for my individual situation. My older daughter was nothing like her, ever. It wasn't my mothering skills - it was my child's personality.

Sometimes these situational things MUST be taken into consideration.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

infiniti said:


> I think it's totally necessary to crate-train all dogs because you never know when confinement will be necessary in their lives and it should be something that they should be desensitized to as much as possible so as to cause as little stress as possible.


BS BS BS BS BS BS BS.

totally UNnecessary. after years of owning dogs through travel, 2 hurricanes, countless vet visits etc etc etc...

i have not ONCE NEEDED a crate. 

a crate is just an option. there are other options. i will NEVER crate train any dog of mine because its NOT necessary and crates make my life HELL. the fosters ive had to crate train...well...i had to stop accepting my own fosters..because they are required to be crate trained. it makes life extremely stressful.


....sorry infiniti...not bashing you or anything but im getting REALLY sick of people saying that.


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## luvmymuts (Apr 23, 2010)

Only one of my dogs uses a crate and that is because she is a 12 week old curious, hyper Jack Russel mix. I would much rather leave her in a crate when Im at work where I know she is safe and chewing on her peanut butter kong, than let her run around getting into God only knows what. For her its more a matter of safety. Copper is 2.5 years old and hasn't had a crate since he was 1 and broke out of it 3 times, 3 days in a row. He was trained and learned what is and isn't acceptable and I fully trust him at home. I have a camper and he never gets on my bed or tears up anything except his toys from his toybox. 

Yes, I work 8hours a day. My dogs also get regular trips to the dog park and walked at least 1 hour a day along with training exercises. 

The question of crate training being ethical is not all that important to me. I know my dogs have a great life and are happy and healthy. They are a lot better off that all of the dogs in shelters waiting to be put to sleep. With puppy mills and the overpopulation issue every dog on this forum, crated or not, is extremely lucky and fortunate to have a home with a loving owner. 

In my book, every person on here that owns a dog and cares for it is a wonderful person. Kudos to all of us.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

FKAPRSOA said:


> Dress it up anyway you like, you are no better than some of the 3rd world country zoo keepers. You are further supressing the natural instincts in your dogs. For different puproses, we have to keep them confined to a yard or house, and this is something that we can not personally control as the laws are made by others. In your own home though it is YOU who has the choice to further restrict your dog or not.


Restricting is restricting. A dog can't fulfill his instinct in a crate? How can he do so in a house? Or apartment? 

He can no more fulfill his needs in the backyard than he can in a house. 

Suppressed instincts are suppressed instincts - it doesn't matter how much room the dog has if the instinctive drives aren't being used. 

Plus a dog's INSTINCT is to sleep 10-14 hours (or more) a day. Google it up if you don't believe me. 

If they get 8 of those in their 'cage' what difference does it make? And your earlier point about movement, a dog can move around in any large-enough or larger sized crate. In fact, the guide is, large enough for the dog to stand up, turn around, and lie stretched out. If the dog can't move inside the crate - it's too small and thus not a proper use of crates.

And the insulting comment about 3rd world zoo keepers - why do you resort to hyperbole/insults in your argument? 




FKAPRSOA said:


> Within reason, I can understand the argument regarding furnishings. I am house proud! I LOVE having a beautiful home. Guess what, I ran a rescue from my home for more than 5 years and every rescue lived inside. The ONLY time I crated a dog was for medical purposes or puppies who were prone to getting into all sorts of dangerous situations.


Really? Haven't people here said they crate to keep puppies/dogs safe from getting into trouble? 




FKAPRSOA said:


> I spent money and time ensuring my dogs and the rescues, including BLIND AND DEAF RESCUES, had access to a safe environment. Not only a safe environment, but an environment that prevented destruction of my home or furnishings. Over 55 dogs have come through my home, and yet I only crated on the rare occasion. I had dogs who suffered SA, ADHD, broken limbs, blindness, deafness, allergies, barking issues, anxiety related issues and millions of other issues and I did NOT crate these dogs as a routine thing.


Perhaps instead of attacking people who do use crates, maybe you could educate on what you DID do to avoid having to use crates? Not just going off on how crates are evil and dogs don't belong in them. Educate, not antagonize.



FKAPRSOA said:


> STOP CAGING YOUR DOGS. Make the effort to create a safe environment for them. Spend the time. Spend the money. Talk to trainers. Talk to behaviourlists.


And share your own knowledge! Oh wait, that wasn't up there. But it should be. If you have knowledge of something and others don't, instead of insulting them for doing what they can do for their dogs in the way they see is right and if you truly feel it's wrong, then EDUCATE and not attack people for doing what they can, especially when there's FAR FAR worse things that could be happening to those dogs. Like getting PTS because of their issues.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> You know why I love my crates? Because they keep my dogs out of trouble. They keep my dogs safe. And yes, they are convenient for ME.
> 
> At one point in my life I had two GSDs, was working 16 hour days with almost NO sleep time in between (we're talking 2 hours...a nap) and when I was at home, I did three things. I took my dogs to kennel club, I ate, and I slept.
> 
> ...


I like your reasoning for this a lot. I also like the leash attached to crate idea. Once Frag stops chewing I think I'll do that. And I'm going to start pronto with Kit. Thanks for the subconscious suggestion. 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> BS BS BS BS BS BS BS.
> 
> totally UNnecessary. after years of owning dogs through travel, 2 hurricanes, countless vet visits etc etc etc...
> 
> ...


Can I ask why they make your life so stressful?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Restricting is restricting. A dog can't fulfill his instinct in a crate? How can he do so in a house? Or apartment?
> 
> He can no more fulfill his needs in the backyard than he can in a house.
> 
> ...


Well the thread title IS "Crate Training Ethical" So... it may not be right to "attack" others for using a crate but her views are totally justified.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> Can I ask why they make your life so stressful?


two severely injured SA fosters, the whining in the beginning makes me want to bash my head against the wall, ive risked losing my job having to come home every four hours to let the crated dogs out for a pee(and i got fired from a previous job for the same reason). they take up too much space, ive had fosters who pee in them anyway....

do you really want the whole novel?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Well the thread title IS "Crate Training Ethical" So... it may not be right to "attack" others for using a crate but her views are totally justified.


So are everyone else's.

Which is why there's no need for insults/hyperbole.

The thread title doesn't call for calling people 3rd world zoo keepers and such. Is there ever a point for antagonizing people you don't agree with? You can debate points without attack the presenter of the points or those that support that "side".


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

basically i can take a week or two off and potty train a dog, no problem. then i can leave the foster in the Kennel room and Bolo in my room. everyone is safe and comfy and i can be secure about not losing my job, i dont have to listen to whining, my room has more than three feet of walking space and its just plain damn easy.

but they have to be crate trained...so i cant do it anymore.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ....sorry infiniti...not bashing you or anything but im getting REALLY sick of people saying that.


No harm, no foul, zim. Like I said, it's an individual preference and opinion. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa. No big thing. 

Actually, Bella kind of refuses to use her crate anymore, which is fine because she's so well-behaved and well-mannered. But the reason she refuses is kind of sad to me ... my ex-boyfriend started using it as her "time-out" when she would do something naughty, so it became aversive to her. Now she thinks she is in trouble if I tell her to go in there. I don't know how to turn it back around to make it positive, and really it's no big deal anyway I guess. She only goes in there now when she gets scolded for something, or when she herself knows she's done something wrong.

I guess my thoughts behind it being necessary for dogs to be crate-trained is like I said, in the event they must be confined for some reason - air travel, boarding, overnight vet stays, that sort of thing. It just seems that those situations suddenly thrust upon a dog completely unfamiliar with crating would be unduly stressful.

However, that's my opinion only.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

While crates may not be necessary for all dogs they may be necessary for some dogs living in certain circumstances (like me and Mia in an apartment). There is no place I can barricade her off and not have her destroy the apartment. As a renter, I can't have her tearing up more of the place. 

It's also very helpful for me because I travel a lot and Mia can be loaded up in a crate in the car. I believe this is the safest way for them to travel. Also, the people I board them with will crate them at night. When I was showing, Beau would be crated some of the show too. So familiarity with crates is thus something my dogs do _need_.

Also, this made me LOL. 



> BUT ... consider a dog like Mia (sorry Laurelin ) ... Mia is a pistol! We all know that from Laurelin's very detailed and entertaining stories. I think that Mia delights in being a pistol, too! Mia simply cannot be trusted to have free roam in the house. That doesn't make Mia a bad dog, nor does it make Laurelin a bad dog owner. It simply makes Mia a different kind of dog with a different set of circumstances that require different handling and management - for her own safety, for Laurelin's peace of mind and for the safety of the household.


It's totally true though. Mia needs a different way of handling than my others.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yeahhh....hit up a dog show. With the exception of a minority of the dogs (the ones with the BIG name handlers that show up in RVs and have a crap ton of expens), most dogs at a dog show spend all day in their kennels, just like at home.

My dogs have been through the routine a zillion times and nobody fusses until I put somebody that ISN'T them up on the grooming table. I tell them to be quiet, and they go back to sleeping or chewing on their bones that I've provided for them.

BTW, the people with the expens that put their larger breeds of dogs in there (Boxers, Dobermans, Weims, etc)? Yeahhhh, even if you can't SEE a person, there is ALWAYS somebody around monitoring those pens to make sure nobody gets out!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

infiniti said:


> I guess my thoughts behind it being necessary for dogs to be crate-trained is like I said, in the event they must be confined for some reason - air travel, boarding, overnight vet stays, that sort of thing. It just seems that those situations suddenly thrust upon a dog completely unfamiliar with crating would be unduly stressful.
> 
> However, that's my opinion only.


. 

i dont air travel with a dog. i would never. i wouldnt ship a dog like that and i wouldnt force that on any dog...expecially after reading about how airlines keep LOSING dogs. plus my dogs are usually pit bulls...which i dont think there is ANY airline that doesnt have some sort of ridiculous restriction regarding them. i dont support any company that practices breed discrimination.

boarding..i wouldnt have dogs if i didnt have personal family and friends to board my dogs with. if they arent available..i wont go. 

overnight vet stays. whenever possible, i stay too. and i pay a small fee for sedation when necessary and a small fee for a spare room.

but that's just me.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Yeahhh....hit up a dog show. With the exception of a minority of the dogs (the ones with the BIG name handlers that show up in RVs and have a crap ton of expens), most dogs at a dog show spend all day in their kennels, just like at home.
> 
> My dogs have been through the routine a zillion times and nobody fusses until I put somebody that ISN'T them up on the grooming table. I tell them to be quiet, and they go back to sleeping or chewing on their bones that I've provided for them.
> 
> BTW, the people with the expens that put their larger breeds of dogs in there (Boxers, Dobermans, Weims, etc)? Yeahhhh, even if you can't SEE a person, there is ALWAYS somebody around monitoring those pens to make sure nobody gets out!



no need for a crate if only showing one dog at a time. which is how i plan to roll baby

ETA

i wont be showing AKC either. I will be showing UKC and ADBA..which operate a little differently.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

One thing I can say for sure is both my dogs are happier in their kennels right beside my bed sleeping than they would be locked in another room somewhere in the house (Not to mention we dont have a room to lock them in). My dogs would rather be right beside me watching TV in a kennel (which they are not ever, this is just a point I am making) than even out side on our large deck alone.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> no need for a crate if only showing one dog at a time. which is how i plan to roll baby


Yeah, I show more than one at a time, lol. And I usually stay for the whole show because I pick up dogs.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm sure I've missed some posts on eleven pages of this thread but two things good about crating: those dogs are used to it, if the need arises & if there's a fire in my home, I know where one or two of mine are!
I know some who absolutely refuse to crate. I mentioned what if the dog has to stay overnight at a vets but they claim that will never happen, the dog would come home. <shrug>, If my vet said the dog must be kept overnight, I'd listen to them. What about day procedures, such as spays/neuters, dentals, where the dog has to be crated or caged? Be a shame if a dog wasn't at least crate trained, IMO


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

i think that the question at hand is problematic. i am not so sure ethics is a factor in this. not to mention that the question is entirely subjective and depends on the situation.

i resent the 3rd world zoo-keeper comment. crating works for me and my situation. and i have a happy healthy energetic dog. to suggest that i am abusive for keeping my dog in a crate where she sleeps all day is ridiculous. (and yes i know for a fact that she sleeps all day). she happens to like her crate and find it comforting. i initially implemented the crate, yes, for potty training, but also because when she was a puppy she would chew/eat everything. even when you thought there was nothing for her to chew/eat, she would find something. eventually, she grew to like the crate and it became part of her routine. 

now when i run shorter errands, i leave her have free run of the apartment. guess what? she goes into the evil crate and sleeps. if i take a shower, she goes and lays in the crate. when i am home with her, she gets plenty of exercise and activity and affection. she is not an abused dog, and i am not "unethical" for using a crate.

the problem i have here is not that this is a discussion. its perfectly fine if you do not want to use a crate. i respect and appreciate that. but the fact that some people are making it into a black and white argument of generalizations is obnoxious to me. 

yes, some people probably abuse the convenience that a crate can provide, but not all people and it is quite unfair to make outright assumptions and generalizations about all people who choose to train with a crate. 

crating works for some people and not for others. period. end of story.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

CAN SOMEONE HELP ME?

I just created a poll but mistakenly made it public instead of anonymous.
I sent an email to the admin but thought someone may know a way to re edit it. I thought it would be useful to get an estimate but obviously for this topic anonymity is better.

I also changed the title of my first post but can't for the title topic to Crating your Dog, How much is to much?

That was more in the spirit of my original question and again I had no idea how much of a debate this would cause. Sometimes I write quickly before thinking it through. 
I will admit that the information provided here has greatly helped me in my thought processes on this matter.


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## 123fraggle (Feb 20, 2009)

Why not just keep it public? I would be interested in the results as I am sure others on the forum would be.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

123fraggle said:


> Why not just keep it public? I would be interested in the results as I am sure others on the forum would be.


I guess I'm a bit confused at to how it works. On another forum I belong to you can have it anonymous where you still see the results but not the names of people. I think you would get more response with an anonymous system.
I've looked on the site and I think only a moderator can undo it.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

I couldn't answer the poll, because the way I use a crate isn't listed. Only over night, (and in most cases, there only until potty training is complete, depending on the dog), and occasionally if I have to be gone during the day, approximately 2 hours once a week or so.

Daytime confinement too would depend on the dog once potty training is complete, it may not even be those couple of hours.

For the most part, with the exception of people who have to be gone for long, pre-determined stretches of time with no one else to keep an eye on things, it's hard for others to answer that specifically


EDITED; Okay, my mistake. I just realized you were asking during the day. I'll answer my 2 hours or so, but that's not per day, it's once a twice a week, and depends on the situation.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

Papilove said:


> I couldn't answer the poll, because the way I use a crate isn't listed. Only over night, (and in most cases, there only until potty training is complete, depending on the dog), and occasionally if I have to be gone during the day, approximately 2 hours once a week or so.
> 
> Daytime confinement too would depend on the dog once potty training is complete, it may not even be those couple of hours.
> 
> ...


Good points....I was trying to keep it somewhat general...If they allow me to edit it would you include another option?


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

I think it would be tough to add every possible option, maybe add a less than 10 hours a week... I don't really know. Maybe only to run short errands out of the house during the week, or something. On a daily basis I really don't use crates during the day. I work from home. I keep a puppy in sight and one eye on them at all times (not hard, more difficult to concentrate on work, haha). I use a crate at night until housebreaking... once a dog is housebroken, whether or not I continue using a crate for anything other than travel, vet trips, shows, etc, depend completely on the individual dog. So far, knock on wood, I have never had to use a crate for routine daily (or nightly) use after housebreaking... but you can never say never. No one method is right for EVERY dog/person/situation.

Also bear in mind that all my 'experience' is decades old. I haven't had a puppy in the house in nearly 20 years now (coming soon, oh boy)... my last dog passed away almost 5 years ago and it took us this long to come to grips with that enough to venture into another relationship.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

While Wally can decide - he usually chooses not to be in it (he usually prefers my room, I'm guessing because it smells a lot like me/positive history in there).

On the off chance something might startle him or he just goes in there for some reason, I put 0-4 hours, as I'm guessing it's like 30 minutes unless he wants to catch up on some sleep in there (but, like I said, he's usually in my room on his bed in there or in my gamer chair he used to hate)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I can't answer the poll either. Many days they are not crated at all or if they are its less than an hour. Most days its about 4 hours. On occasion it's been up to 12 hours. I really try to put a break in between if I can, though.


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## kas (Apr 24, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I can't answer the poll either. Many days they are not crated at all or if they are its less than an hour. Most days its about 4 hours. On occasion it's been up to 12 hours. I really try to put a break in between if I can, though.


If they let me edit I will include Varies from day to day or something like that.
I havent' heard back from the forum moderators.


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## FKAPRSOA (May 5, 2010)

For those who have commented that my words are a personal attack, perhaps you have underlying feelings of guilt regarding crating, otherwise, why would my comments even affect you and why would you continue to take them as personal?

I stated clearly that my statements are made from a _generalised_ viewpoint. For those that get upset, I would suggest your emotional reaction may be that you recognise on some level that crating dogs routinely is unneccessary and wrong.

As for the comment I made on 3rd world zoos, firstly it was used as an illustration and I DID NOT personally attach it to anyone, I'm afraid crating a dog can quite easily be compared to this. Go visit a SE Asia zoo and you will understand the comment. 

To whomever it was that tried to insinuate it was about a US vs Aust thing, think again. I actually join US forums because of the amount of information I can learn and take in. Australia is some years behined the US, sadly though, this 'behind factor' also means that we are behind in such things as the overuse of crates. Hopefully, we will see the error of what our neighbours do though and stop the same thought processes occurring here where people actually argue that routine crating for dogs all day is accpetable. 

Obviously, this thread is not meant for anyone who thinks crating is _not_ a healthy thing, so I will bow out less I should upset any more sensitive souls. Interestingly, the falming and abuse seems to be ok if it is aimed at me but the mere hint of strong words or comparisons by me causes an uproar.

My last words - STOP CAGING YOUR DOGS AND LET THEM BE DOGS!


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

All I can say is, it's FAR better to keep a dog crated for 8 to 10hours then to allow them to have full roam of the house where they can get into things that will harm them. I know of dogs that would chew couches in half out of bordom and I know of a dog that ended up eating glass and dying because they were allowed to run the house.

When Nubs was being housebroken, He would be stuck in his crate for 9 to 10hours. I didin't like it, but it was safer then letting him run the house, eating, chewing, and causing damage to himself and to the house. 

Nubs now has free roam of the house because he is house broken, and no longer chews. 

All my dogs will be crate trained until the end of times, and my dog will end up beign crated from the time I leave work until I come home.

Record your dog and see what it does when you leave your house for the day. I have, and Nubs doesn't move from the couch until he thinks he hears me pull in to the driveway. How is him laying on the couch different from laying in the crate? 

I do have to add, Nubs crate is the largest I could find at 52". It takes up a lot of my front room and he's happy in it. As long as he is happy and safe, life is good.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

FKAPRSOA- I'm not one of the people who was 'offended' by your comparison, mostly because I simply do no let the over-opinionated attitudes of others affect me. I mostly have to assume, for my own peace of mind, that you are very young, and do not realize you simply cannot put absolutes on every situation. Nor can you vilify a tool, it is the use of the tool that causes harm, and that is on a case by case basis. You might as well say a dog must not live in a house--not natural--confinement--to live in a house it must obey the artificial rules of man (housebreaking, etc) must not be kept confined to a yard, or an outdoor kennel... in otherwords, welcome to PETA. Ugh. 

People who work hard to make sure their animals are cared for, healthy, socialized, trained, and loved do not misuse tools often. Do they sometimes make mistakes, either out of ignorance or simple error? He!! yeah. You know what that makes them--HUMAN... and, wait for it, here's where I assume you are young (or too stupid to realize it) it will happen to you at some point too.

Just like good parents still make mistakes with their children--it's impossible to be perfect... good pet owners occasionally make mistakes, but it's not out of cruelty, not caring, or disregard, and does not cause real harm. More often, the use is appropriate, and meets the needs of a specific situation.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

FKAPRSOA said:


> My last words - STOP CAGING YOUR DOGS AND LET THEM BE DOGS!


Mine are crated, thank you. Are you the kind of person who, if I posted that I let my dog loose, the one who is destructive, if I came home to find he fried himself eating an electrical wire, or got into the trash and had an obstruction, barked and barked out the window and bothered the neighbors, etc, that would blame me because I didn't confine my dog and he got hurt?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

FKAPRSOA, I wasn't offended by your comments. I just thought they were uninformed and hyperbolic. Show me someone who keeps their dog crated 24/7 and sure, I'll agree they're acting like a third-world zookeeper. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone like that, though, especially around here.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Darkmoon said:


> Record your dog and see what it does when you leave your house for the day. I have, and Nubs doesn't move from the couch until he thinks he hears me pull in to the driveway. How is him laying on the couch different from laying in the crate?



she bounces her ball off the wall and catches it and then bounces it again. she also watches the critters out the window. she sleeps for maybe an hour when im gone.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> To whomever it was that tried to insinuate it was about a US vs Aust thing, think again. I actually join US forums because of the amount of information I can learn and take in. Australia is some years behined the US, sadly though, this 'behind factor' also means that we are behind in such things as the overuse of crates. Hopefully, we will see the error of what our neighbours do though and stop the same thought processes occurring here where people actually argue that routine crating for dogs all day is accpetable.


You brought up Austrailia and how crating was different there and I said I had no plans on moving/going to Austrailia. That was not a US versus Austrailia thing. It was a me not moving to Austrailia thing. I also said "crates/crate training good" I did not say anybody was cruel to a dog if they did not want to use a crate. I don't care if people use crates or not use crates it's personal decision that has nothing to do with Austrailia or the United States. People have choices and are free to do as they wish.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> To whomever it was that tried to insinuate it was about a US vs Aust thing, think again. I actually join US forums because of the amount of information I can learn and take in. Australia is some years behined the US, sadly though, this 'behind factor' also means that we are behind in such things as the overuse of crates. Hopefully, we will see the error of what our neighbours do though and stop the same thought processes occurring here where people actually argue that routine crating for dogs all day is accpetable.


You brought up Australia and how crating was different there and I said I had no plans on moving/going to Australia. That was not a US versus Australia thing. It was a me not moving to Australia thing. I also said "crates/crate training good" I did not say anybody was cruel to a dog if they did not want to use a crate. I don't care if people use crates or not use crates it's personal decision that has nothing to do with Australia or the United States. People have choices and are free to do as they wish.


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## Hollis (Jan 25, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> Record your dog and see what it does when you leave your house for the day. .


I have yet to record her. (I think the longest she's been home alone is 4 hours - if that) But, she certainly doesn't sleep the whole time. She rearranges all of our shoes. She takes them from our shoe bins and brings them to the couch she waits on. She likes to sleep with her nose in them. She'll also go upstairs and try to find dirty socks (sometimes underwear) to sleep with. Nothing is destroyed. 

We do have a crate. She puts herself in it when it is bedtime. Door is open - we've never asked her to start her evening in it as we like her on the bed. She comes into our bed around midnight. She was crate trained in foster care. We used it to make sure she was safe when she first came to our home. It gave her a chance to get away from my kids also. My kids were taught that if she was in the crate then they were to leave her be. After a short time we realized that she was not a destructive dog and was fine out. She's created safe spots in the house for her to relax. She loves under their craft table even with them sitting there. Essentially, she's created her own crate.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> My last words - STOP CAGING YOUR DOGS AND LET THEM BE DOGS!


I didn't know my dogs weren't dogs inside of their kennels. Perhaps they're Spider Monkeys?

Next thing I'm going to hear is "Quit making that dog your slave! Just let your service dog be a dog!"


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I didn't know my dogs weren't dogs inside of their kennels. Perhaps they're Spider Monkeys?


LOL 



Xeph said:


> Next thing I'm going to hear is "Quit making that dog your slave! Just let your service dog be a dog!"


This just brings me to ponder ... what IS the true definition of a "dog" and what does being a dog truly entail? If having a dog work for us in some way, be it in a service capacity, agility, showing, trials, tricks, retrieving, hunting, herding, guarding, protection ... WHATEVER!, is the same as slavery then WTH are dogs supposed to be doing otherwise? Just hanging out in the backyard barking their heads off, running the length of the fence, rolling in mud and poop??? 

Crates aside, seriously, which sounds like the more fulfilling life? 

Poo on the whole crate debate! Do what fits YOU and YOUR dog and YOUR lifestyle!!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

infiniti said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the dog who has both. both a "job" and the leisure to roll in the muck....like Bolo.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

FKAPRSOA said:


> For those who have commented that my words are a personal attack, perhaps you have underlying feelings of guilt regarding crating, otherwise, why would my comments even affect you and why would you continue to take them as personal?
> 
> I stated clearly that my statements are made from a _generalised_ viewpoint. For those that get upset, I would suggest your emotional reaction may be that you recognise on some level that crating dogs routinely is unneccessary and wrong.


Or perhaps we recognize that your analogy was insulting. There is a world of difference between an animal living its entire life in a cage versus spending some time in a cage during the day. 

I don't know why I'm even arguing...My crate is big enough to be practically a safe room for them. A big dog in a small safe room would have as much space. There's just not wires around them, I guess. 



> Poo on the whole crate debate! Do what fits YOU and YOUR dog and YOUR lifestyle!!!


You preach it sister!


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

FKAPRSOA, I didn't take your comments personally, because I know for a fact that I'm doing what's best for my dog, and that the majority of people here are, too. Personally I just think you being absolutely ridiculous.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I wonder if never "crating" or "caging" refers to all animals?

Should horses never be put in stalls?...what about birds, rabbits, snakes, hermit crabs, gerbils, ferrets, spiders, cockroaches, fish, rats, mice? ...etc..etc....


any opinions?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

pugmom said:


> I wonder if never "crating" or "caging" refers to all animals?
> 
> Should horses never be put in stalls?...what about birds, rabbits, snakes, hermit crabs, gerbils, ferrets, spiders, cockroaches, fish, rats, mice? ...etc..etc....
> 
> ...


depends on your definitions.

with fish, hissers, spiders...you most often have to provide for environmental considerations...id be more inclined to use the word "habitat" for some kinds of enclosures.

same with gerbils and ferrets, rats and such...none of their enclosures are so small that they can only stand up and turn around in.(which is the general recommendation for sizing a crate)

horse stalls...i might liken that to a crate..but im not a horse person...not familiar enough with them to say..


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> depends on your definitions.
> 
> with fish, hissers, spiders...you most often have to provide for environmental considerations...id be more inclined to use the word "habitat" for some kinds of enclosures.
> 
> ...


I agree for the most part

I also don't know very much about horses...


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I wonder if never "crating" or "caging" refers to all animals?
> 
> Should horses never be put in stalls?...what about birds, rabbits, snakes, hermit crabs, gerbils, ferrets, spiders, cockroaches, fish, rats, mice? ...etc..etc....
> 
> ...


Skittles loves his cage  I'll take him out to explore around the house and I'll leave the cage door open, and when he's tired of being out, he'll fly back to his cage. But then again his cage is a lot bigger than recommended for a parrot his size. It was meant for a medium sized parrot and he's on the small end for conures.

In my opinion, if an animal gets adequate exercise and mental stimulation every day, then I see no harm in reasonable periods of confinement. There's no way to even own domesticated animals unless we confine/control them in some way.

Here's another point of view: I've recently been lurking on a corn snake forum, and several members are of the opinion that reptiles in general should be handled/removed from their cages as little as possible as to minimize the stress on them. Personally I don't agree completely but it's certainly something to think about.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i dont think its the idea of confinement people tend to have a problem with....

its the SIZE of the confinement that seems to be the issue.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

pugmom said:


> I wonder if never "crating" or "caging" refers to all animals?
> 
> Should horses never be put in stalls?...what about birds, rabbits, snakes, hermit crabs, gerbils, ferrets, spiders, cockroaches, fish, rats, mice? ...etc..etc....
> 
> ...


I don't think my snake would appreciate being out of her habitat too often. Bella has a high prey drive and that just wouldn't go over well. 

However, when I didn't have Bella, I did take my snake out more often, and she does occasionally "ask" to be let out by becoming more active in her habitat and nosing her habitat lid. She just slithers around and ultimately winds up underneath or behind something and stays there. I think it's necessary to periodically handle them so they remain used to being handled but not constantly. And I don't think that they HAVE to be let out all that often. Mine is in a pretty large enclosure.

As for horses, the rule of thumb is a minimum of one acre per horse and they are not typically kept in a stall all the time - that is unreasonable confinement. They are let out to roam and graze a good majority of the time and only should be stalled during inclement weather, imminent foaling, illness, shoeing, medical treatment and feeding.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

All right, I'll let my dogs be dogs. But I am not picking up the poop they leave all over your yard.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't think anyone is saying you have to use crates. But many dog owners like to use them. It may be no more than a matter of convenience and safety.
But every dog owner, every dog, and every situation. 

A few points...

1) Baby gates won't work with all dogs. 

2) A safe room vs a crate is a matter of semantics. 

3) Is there such a thing as a safe room? Dogs chew drywall, doors, all sorts of things.

4) Some people - Renters especially cannot risk damage to a safe room.

5) Next time you are at your vet ask him or her how many dogs they have had to open up to remove household items.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i dont think its the idea of confinement people tend to have a problem with....
> 
> its the SIZE of the confinement that seems to be the issue.


Absolutely! And the over use in lieu of proper training and the abuse because it's easier to put them in a crate than take the time to properly TRAIN them to make sure your dog doesn't eat the inappropriate things, or bark all day long, or run amok while you're gone. 90% of ALL those things Y'all state as reasons you crate your dogs can generally be fixed thru training.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

As has been said many times in this thread, crate training is an incredibly useful tool that opens up a ton of possibilities for your dog and you. The most important of those is potty training. It makes the process infinitely easier. Next, imo, would be when a dog needs to be dog sat, especially at a strange house. I don't ever trust my dogs' manners (as good as they are at home) when under someone else's care.

Rocky spent the first 5 months or so of his life in his crate when we left, but ever since then it has been his choice. He probably spends 2-3 hours in there a day and most of the night of entirely his own choice.


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## andrewM (May 28, 2010)

Most people think crating dogs is perfectly fine. I think if you look at it from a human side, it's awful, but dogs like their little cave, however, they get to go in and leave as they please in the wild, out of the cave. I'm kind of divided on the subject. I let my dogs go in and out as they please. They don't have a door on their crates.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Trumpetjack, I have found crate training at least 10 times more difficult than potty training. 

I have yet to have a dog that naturally wanted to wander in and spend any time in a crate even when it was available from the tiniest of ages. Once crate trained I've yet to see my dogs go deliberately into a crate or choose a den type situation. Mine have all been the type that like to sit in the open from a vantage point where they could watch out at least one window (usually on the couch).

I've always found potty training infinitely easier without the hassle of trying to train to a crate at a young age.

So stating that crates make it easier, I would think, depends on the your own experiences and situation.

I'm sure that for some dogs and some people it does, but it is not a blanket truth for all.

(Sorry I had to post about that as I do believe there is room for lots of methods/opinions and ways to do things, but the promotion of crate training for easier potty training is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.)

SOB


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> Trumpetjack, I have found crate training at least 10 times more difficult than potty training.
> 
> I've always found potty training infinitely easier without the hassle of trying to train to a crate at a young age.
> 
> ...


Duly noted.

If I ran into a dog that was a real pain in the butt to crate train, you can bet that I wouldn't be trying to force it on the dog just so I could use it as a potty training aide.

It's a really useful tool, but every tool comes with a price. Each dog charges a different price, and each owner has a wallet of a different thickness.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

once you start qualifying it becomes a matter of semantics... it still comes down to 'how you use it'.


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## kerplunk105 (Mar 5, 2008)

Tegan is crated when I'm not home. However, a family member is always home so they let her out, play with her, etc. during the day. 

Bliss loves crates and goes in Tegans whenever she can to sleep. The door is left open whenever I'm home.


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## Chikyuu (May 1, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I can't answer the poll either. Many days they are not crated at all or if they are its less than an hour. Most days its about 4 hours. On occasion it's been up to 12 hours. I really try to put a break in between if I can, though.


I put my puppy in her crate when she goes to sleep or goes in the car. I made it a positive den-like space for her to relax in, and she does go in there sometimes for naps. When I'm not home she's baby-gated into a hallway with her crate there so she can go in there if she wants.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

For such a heated debate, I was expecting more people responding to the 8-12 hours category.............

Just by looking at the results, it seems to me, most of us on here have a good head about ourselves and clearly don't keep our dogs crated for long hours at a time. (Unless there's no other option.)

I voted "the door is open, the dog can decide," very rarely less than once a week to do I ask Donatello to go in his crate. If he is crated, he's hardly in there more than two hours, and like I said he's already hardly in there to begin with...

I personally think that having him crate-trained is a good thing, and something I will do for every dog hereafter... I think having him crate trained helps keep him very cultured to things that are out of the ordinary. Dog-forbid something happens and I have to leave him at work for 6 hours, I would rather him already be accustomed to it, then it being something "new" to him at this stage... (See what I mean? Cause I'm not sure I do myself, lol)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I personally think that having him crate-trained is a good thing, and something I will do for every dog hereafter... I think having him crate trained helps keep him very cultured to things that are out of the ordinary. Dog-forbid something happens and I have to leave him at work for 6 hours, I would rather him already be accustomed to it, then it being something "new" to him at this stage... (See what I mean? Cause I'm not sure I do myself, lol)


Imagine that, actually planning ahead for a possible emergency. How Quaint. Keep up the good work.


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## Prince&Ellie'smommy (May 28, 2010)

Prince is crated, because he was not neutered until I got him... so he likes to mark his territory when we're gone. His crate is XL, so he has plenty of room to walk around. He has a comfy bed, water, and food with him. He goes in there by himself just to be alone sometimes. 

Ellie is put in the bathroom since she likes to get in the trash, jumps on cabinets and tables, and chews anything she wants. She also has a bed, food, and water. We put her blanky on her bed, and she curls up under it and falls asleep. 

They are locked up no more then 3 hours a day. I don't work so the only time theyre up is when my husband and I go eat or just go out. They don't mind it. They get their nap time in. It's like putting a baby in a crib for a nap.


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## CatintheHat (Jun 7, 2009)

There is nothing unethical about crate _training_, or limited use of a crate as a management tool. Excessive confinement (whether in a crate or not) with no enrichment is unethical. 


Recently escaped feral dogs don't typically form packs for cooperative hunting and raising of pups, and typically have low reproductive success. Groups of feral dogs are usually described as a "loose coalition" and are most often competing for resources. 

For wolves and dingos, "denning" generally means a mother with pups. The rest of the pack normally stays close to the den, except when out hunting or foraging, but not actually in the den. Dens are used only during the whelping season and until the pups are big enough to travel with the pack. 

Of course all wolves and dogs sleep every day, and will have preferred sleeping places that are comfortable and provide shelter from the elements and cover from possible predators. This is different from a den. 



Dog_Shrink said:


> In the wild the den is big enough to house the entire pack and seperate living space is dolled out by the leader of the pack.


 Pure fantasy! Often the den is a hollow log with just enough room for the mother and her pups; small spaces are easier to keep warm. 



Dog_Shrink said:


> BTW there are other packs to watch aside of wolf. Cape hunting dog, hyena, african painted plains dog etc.


 Cape hunting dog = painted dog = _Lycaon pictus_. They are in the Canidae but are a different genus. Ecological niche and social behavior is much different from _C. lupus_. Hyenas (4 extant species) are in family Hyaenidae, sub-order Feliformia (more closely related to cats than dogs). They also occupy different ecological niches and exhibit different social behaviors from each other, and from _C. lupus_. To the extent that you have actually read about the behavior of these species, that is of extremely limited usefulness in understanding the social behavior of domestic dogs.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

See, the one main positive thing I like about crates is that most dogs will HAVE to be in one for periods of time at sometime in their lives.

Groomers and vets all use crates most of the time... if a dog isn't used to being in a crate, it'll be very distressed when it's forced to be in one during these situations. Also, travelling in the car in a crate is much safer than letting the dog sit around the car without any restraints.


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## Chikyuu (May 1, 2010)

I think as long as the crate is associated positively to the dog so it's kind of their own little lounge they can nap in and hang out in, that's always available to them like a den, and that they don't stay in there any more than a few hours in the day, especially in one sitting, crate training is ok. Not only does it help with housetraining and keeping the dog safe when you can't watch them, dogs are den animals instinctively, so they learn to think of their crate as a good place, not a bad one. At least if you introduce it correctly.


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## renure (Jan 3, 2008)

I would like to post on this - I am a foster and find crates invaluable for fosters. For the safety of the dog (with my own dogs) and the safety of my own dogs. I simply couldn't foster if I didn't use crates. I also find that one of the reasons labs are given up (among many) is because of destruction or seperation anxiety that causes destruction when the owner isn't home. A crate prevents that and can give both the owner and the dog peace of mind. I have housebroken many older labs who were outside dogs using crates. You have to be diligent in their use. I always tell my new owners to use one but also that crates are not forever. Some dogs get their new routines right away and don't need it after a few months. Some dogs (like those posted here) like their crates and go into it without any prompting. Very few dogs don't like it but can be coaxed into it at least for a little while. I also using them traveling with some dogs. 

I think it can help save a life for some of my dogs.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

I have never crated my dogs, because I really never heard of it til I came o these forums.lol


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> I have never crated my dogs, because I really never heard of it til I came o these forums.lol


Really? What'd you do with your dogs as puppies or if they were destructive?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Really? What'd you do with your dogs as puppies or if they were destructive?


My mom was home most of the time, my sister was in an dout of the house due to her college schedule, and my brother & I came home in the afternoon to play with Molly. We didn't have Tanner as a puppy. Wen we went on vacation or were gone for a whole day we had our neighbor's daughters come over and play with her and take her out. She liked my parents bathroom so she would stay in there, we put her toys in there and some food. 

Otherwise someone was home to take care of her and train her.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

To the person that wrote that the next thing they're going to hear is that dogs enjoy being caged (as if it's not obvious who it is at this point), dogs can be conditioned to "enjoy" just about anything.

Strauss has been conditioned to enjoy his crate because good things come with it....like going to dog shows, or car rides to the park, or dinner, or sometimes just a bone stuffed with peanut butter.

I'd like to see people own up to the comments they write in people's reputations. It's easy to just type something when you think somebody doesn't know who you are.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> My mom was home most of the time, my sister was in an dout of the house due to her college schedule, and my brother & I came home in the afternoon to play with Molly. We didn't have Tanner as a puppy. Wen we went on vacation or were gone for a whole day we had our neighbor's daughters come over and play with her and take her out. She liked my parents bathroom so she would stay in there, we put her toys in there and some food.
> 
> Otherwise someone was home to take care of her and train her.


Ah, alright. Okay.  I was hoping you had a secret remedy to override the crate.


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## mrslloyd09 (Jul 12, 2009)

Xeph said:


> To the person that wrote that the next thing they're going to hear is that dogs enjoy being caged (as if it's not obvious who it is at this point), dogs can be conditioned to "enjoy" just about anything.
> 
> Strauss has been conditioned to enjoy his crate because good things come with it....like going to dog shows, or car rides to the park, or dinner, or sometimes just a bone stuffed with peanut butter.


So true Xeph. This made me think of last night when DH came bursting into the bathroom while I was showering to ask me where Melodie was (sometimes she'll wander into the bedroom with me to sleep on the bed but I had shut all the doors). I asked did you check her crate? And there she was curled up sound asleep. She's been doing that off and on for the past few days, just chillaxing in her crate. Mandie used to do that as well but found the couch a much more enjoyable place. 

Melodie's crate door is always open, the only time it's closed is when we leave for work but I come home at lunch and we play and she's now trustworthy enough to sleep on our bed at night, but I love that she feels her crate is a place she can go to lay down. Especially when a peanut butter kong might follow her in.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This thread is 8 years old. Please start a new thread to preach to the choir.


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