# Positive Reinforcement Competition Heel



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Looking for info, vids, etc. on training a competition/attention heel using positive reinforcement only (no collar corrections). 

(NOT interested in the debate over which techniques are more effective)

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

I'm sure there is a lot out there but personally my technique was...

Watch really good trainers. Many of them are correction based trainers but watch how they communicate with their dog and what they are looking for. Keep that picture in your head.

Then break it down into small steps and train the same thing but using your R+ to increase the things you want and P- to decrease the things you don't. 

I don't know what problems you are having but a general good piece of advise if you are having problems is to break it down and return to stationary heeling exercises and focus exercises.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Not really having any problems. Not teaching it right now, actually. Just doing a little research.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

The trainer in the attached video is using the late Dawn Jecs method of Choose To Heel (from her book). It starts out with a flexi and mild self-correction only in the puppy stage and only for 2 minutes at that. The video explains how, when and where to reinforce the heel position.

http://www.truveo.com/search?query=jecs heel&flv=1#jecs%20heel%20


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Adele Yunck has some good information out there (I liked _Competition Obedience: A Balancing Act _ which is kind of mix bag with different approaches). Terri Arnold too (_Steppin' Up to Obedience_ series), though she is much more correction based it's not difficult to extrapolate her exercises and fit them to your own training program. 

Ivan Balabanov has some good stuff too...he seems focused on building drive and teaching the dog to control that drive, then using it to channel energy into precise obedience work.

That's all I can think of off hand...my library is still boxed up.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Thank you both! I've seen some of Dawn Jecs' stuff but not enough to know the particulars of her training techniques. I don't see an attached video here but I know where to find it I think.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

TooneyDogs said:


> The trainer in the attached video is using the late Dawn Jecs method of Choose To Heel (from her book). It starts out with a flexi and mild self-correction only in the puppy stage and only for 2 minutes at that. The video  explains how, when and where to reinforce the heel position.


What video?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

If you have an e-mail account that can handle an 11MB file, I have a short video I can send you demoing the beginning basics of heel. Just PM me your e-mail address. This goes out to anyone who may want to watch it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sounds good, CP. Thank you. I hope gmail can handle 11 MB...


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm currently watching Michael Ellis' Focused Heeling video produced by Leerburg. It DOES have corrections, but not until the very end, after the basics have been taught without corrections..


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Maliraptor said:


> I'm currently watching Michael Ellis' Focused Heeling video produced by Leerburg. It DOES have corrections, but not until the very end, after the basics have been taught without corrections..


Have you seen Bernards Building drive/focus for schutzhund? (It too was produced by Leerburg). I have this DVD, I got it for my birthday last year. I thought it was pretty good. I loved watching his dog focus on the ball while the trainer was holding his back legs straight up in the air, the dog never moved. I may have to check the Focused Heeling video out. Tags never needed a correction, but it might be neat to see other dogs heeling "in drive"


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Have you seen Bernards Building drive/focus for schutzhund? (It too was produced by Leerburg). I have this DVD, I got it for my birthday last year. I thought it was pretty good. I loved watching his dog focus on the ball while the trainer was holding his back legs straight up in the air, the dog never moved. I may have to check the Focused Heeling video out. Tags never needed a correction, but it might be neat to see other dogs heeling "in drive"


I have seen it, I don't like it, for one main reason. While the focus is wicked cool, I don't want my dog learning to heel for competition by zoning out staring at a ball/toy held under my arm.

You also need over the top prey drive to carry his methods out, and not every dog fits that mold. 

Ellis' video is fun- it's 4 hours long (which is why I'm still watching it) and has some good information on various things. One thing he does that is a bit off the wall it he teaches his dogs to give to pressure on a leash- like a horse. Jak and I did some of this with him at a seminar and it was fun.

He also uses touch pads for left turns, and starts with very young puppies learning what he calls "muscle memory" heeling.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Shaina said:


> Ivan Balabanov has some good stuff too...he seems focused on building drive and teaching the dog to control that drive, then using it to channel energy into precise obedience work.


Ivan does that with his obedience, but his heeling is a bit different, he feels heeling should be a STATIC exercise, not a drive exercise.

I have taught all my dogs to heel using his method, and I love it, especially his method for left turns. It just didn't work with Jak....happens.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Maliraptor said:


> Ivan does that with his obedience, but his heeling is a bit different, he feels heeling should be a STATIC exercise, not a drive exercise.
> 
> I have taught all my dogs to heel using his method, and I love it, especially his method for left turns. It just didn't work with Jak....happens.


Can you explain that a little more?

Something I've been thinking about is training heel as a position, not a movement. That is, the dog is trying to sit at heel, but the handler keeps moving. Is that sort of what you're talking about?


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Can you explain that a little more?
> 
> Something I've been thinking about is training heel as a position, not a movement. That is, the dog is trying to sit at heel, but the handler keeps moving. Is that sort of what you're talking about?


Yes, in a nutshell. "Heel" means find your position near my left leg. The position is sitting, looking up at me. (I need the looking up for schutzhund)

If I start forward with my right leg only, the dog is still back by my left leg, waiting for it to move.

I have a couple videos, if you're interested.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I would be interested! What's a drive heel like?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

This:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO5MAHiqYnQ

Please pardon the sloppiness, but he is very much in drive


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

training heel requires first to train focus. This we can do with R+... and then attach a word to it. You must be able to get focus first.. and that needs to be under a variety of distractiong locations and situations. 

When you have FOCUS you move on to heel and train with R+ for position. I have trained it moving and then stopping and requiring a sit (sit has already been taught). The auto sit when you stop comes last. 

IF you have focus first and then add heel position the dog usually catches on quickly but then the issue is getting both in all locations and under all distractions. 

Tooney taught me this.. and I have verified it (or had if verified) over and over.. Getting a reliable, focused anywhere, anytime, any how and no matter what competition heel is about 2 years of serious work. 

BTW I did this wrong with Atka. It is working out now....


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Maliraptor said:


> I have seen it, I don't like it, for one main reason. While the focus is wicked cool, I don't want my dog learning to heel for competition by zoning out staring at a ball/toy held under my arm.
> 
> You also need over the top prey drive to carry his methods out, and not every dog fits that mold.
> 
> ...


I can see the zoning out. Auz is a major zoner  Many times at class he would literally look through me, his mind elsewhere, while he was "working". 
I've heard about teaching dogs to give to pressure, and how it's a good life skill to have. Speaking of like-a-horse, I taught Auz to "ground tie" like you would teach a horse (drop the reins, the horse stops...I drop Auz's leash, he stops). 
I will look into this video. Is it sold through Leerburg only?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> training heel requires first to train focus. This we can do with R+... and then attach a word to it. You must be able to get focus first.. and that needs to be under a variety of distractiong locations and situations.
> 
> When you have FOCUS you move on to heel and train with R+ for position. I have trained it moving and then stopping and requiring a sit (sit has already been taught). The auto sit when you stop comes last.
> 
> ...


So true. Then the behavior of the dog, for whatever reason, can fall apart, even after a lot of hard work. Not heeling, but Tag's jumping style fell apart pretty much over night, and it was back to jumping 101 to fix it. It didn't take nearly as long to fix it as it did to actually train it from scratch, but the last thing I wanted was for him to spend the next 6 months jumping incorrectly. If I had a dog I was training for competition obedience, I wouldn't over look slight lagging, or slight forging, or slight side winding or slightly crooked sits. The last thing you want is for that to, literally, become muscle memory. (I now know that muscle memory is the exact reason mom was always on my case about holding clippers/scissors the correct way when I was learning to groom. It's easier to shape the desired outcome than try to fix bad habits, for sure!)


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Here is Mauno heeling in high drive. Notice the teeth clacking, and how he is TENSE and literally vibrating with energy. Also notice, though, the empasis on finding the left leg.

http://www.schhgsd.com/maunoheel.wmv

Here is the same handler and dog 6 months later, after working with food, no toy, and bringing drive level down. Dog is in better position, not wasting as much energy, and actually paying better attention because his mind is clearer.

http://www.schhgsd.com/maunoheel2.wmv

(Videos are uploading as I speak, so if they are not there when you check give them a minutes or two then try again)


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Speaking of competition obedience, Maliraptor noted that she has her dogs looking up, at her face, during a heel or finish for schutzhund. For anyone who does AKC or any other obedience venue, what do you use as your dogs' focal point, and what size is your dog? My trainer thinks Tag (once he grows up..) would do well in any venue we wanted because he's very biddable. He ALWAYS watches my face, but I've heard a small dogs' focal point should be the handlers knee or, at most, the waist. I've heard/read a shorty watching the handlers face can cause forging. (Auz has heeled watching my face, always, for rally. He looks like a dog with a busted neck, because he cranes his neck up and towards me and heels. It's very flashy, but in the AKC world can almost be considered crowding).


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

IMO, if what they're focusing on it the FRONT of your face, yes it causes forging. But if they're focusing on the SIDE profile of your face, you'd be ok. So be careful with eye contact.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I taught Lloyd to heel (and he does it very well, very intensly) using food at first, lots of rewards in sitting heel position until he would often just go to it on his own, this was mostly lured. Then one step, reward, one step reward, one step reward. When I was getting many steps and turns I started using a ball held at my chest instead of food, this increased his desire to heel considerably. He can't think well when a ball is in sight though, so the ball came later when he already knew where he was supposed to be and what he was supposed to be doing. I want him looking at my shoulders as I can give cues to where I am turning with my shoulders. It took awhile to fade my hand up in my chest/shoulder area though. Now though I can have my hands at my side and Lloyd has an excellent heel.

With nash I clicker trained a heel using a clicker and mainly free shaping. I copied and pasted this from my Nash's Training thread from awhile ago:


We worked some more on heel. We had been doing a few sessions here and there, where he is on my left side, up against a wall so he can't sit crooked, and I c/t for looking at my face. We did the above for a few seconds, and then I took a step forward and waited. He moved up to sitting next to me (still against the wall) and looked at my face, c/t with a jackpot. We did it a couple more times and after just those couple of times he was moving with me when I took the step. We took a break and did that a few more times, sometimes I took one step, sometimes 8, sometimes 4. We did up to 10 steps. We did really, really short sessions. Next time I will start working on position without the wall, see if he can figure it out on his own.


Nash is heeling very well now. We had done the work against the wall for awhile to prep and then I started working without the wall. We did a couple of minutes of the stuff along the wall and then I stood out in the room.

At first I c/t for any movement towards me. After a few of those I c/t only for movement towards my left side. Then after about 8 or 9 c/t for that I waited and he came up to my left side close, I c/t for that a couple of times and waited. He tried sitting, facing my left side (so not alongside me) I ignored it and waited. He tried laying down (I ignored it). He got up and moved a little, I c/t that. Then he started moving around me trying to figure out what got the click. He went around me and basically did a finish right, which he didn't know at the time, he was just going around me trying to get me to click. When he reached my left side he was almost in perfect position. I clicked and gave him a jack pot (a few treats and a couple of ball throws).

Then I stood still again and he went to my left side. I c/t'd that. Then I took a step forward and waited, he moved up after a short time (maybe 10 seconds or so) and I c/t that. I kept moving, sometimes straight ahead, sometimes turning to the left or right, sometimes taking a step backwards. When ever he went to heel position I c/t. He had to be sitting straight and in perfect position and looking at me to get the click. I had done a lot of attention training prior to this, so he had already learned to look at my face.

After a very short time of doing this he started walking with me, looking at me (yay!). For awhile I ignored that, and just worked on him finding the position when I stopped. After he was doing that 100% I started working on him walking with me. When he was walking in position and looking up I clicked, the first time he got a jackpot. Then I would just start clicking at random times, sometimes one step, sometimes 4, 2, 10, 5, 12 and so on.

He is heeling now wonderfully for a good 50 steps at a time, in position, with great attention and I don't have to fade a lure He is doing left turns very well, haven't worked on right turns, or both about turns yet.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Shaina said:


> Ivan Balabanov has some good stuff too...he seems focused on building drive and teaching the dog to control that drive, then using it to channel energy into precise obedience work.


I got my hands on some of his videos, and I think I really like his method and way about training. Non compulsive, no corrections other than a soft no, and good for a dog that has good drive for play and tug.

The heel training looks good as well, I may use some of that.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

TxRider said:


> The heel training looks good as well, I may use some of that.


I trained all my competition dogs to heel using his methods.


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## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

Maliraptor said:


> Here is Mauno heeling in high drive. Notice the teeth clacking, and how he is TENSE and literally vibrating with energy. Also notice, though, the empasis on finding the left leg.
> 
> http://www.schhgsd.com/maunoheel.wmv
> 
> ...


Very nice. I use Ivan's methods also.


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## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

Xeph said:


> This:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO5MAHiqYnQ
> 
> Please pardon the sloppiness, but he is very much in drive


Are you serious?


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

ssg said:


> Very nice. I use Ivan's methods also.


In all fairness, that is my husband, he used food and toy the way the europeans are doing now.

Here is my heeling, the group from my SchH2 (95 point routine)

I use Ivan's heeling methods though.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Maliraptor said:


> I trained all my competition dogs to heel using his methods.


Yeah watching his working the dogs with the tug game is definitely something I could see working with high prey drive girl. It's the clearest way forward to pull her prey drive into obedience I have seen.

My other doesn't show enough play or prey drive, not yet anyway, and she may never.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

TxRider said:


> Yeah watching his working the dogs with the tug game is definitely something I could see working with high prey drive girl. It's the clearest way forward to pull her prey drive into obedience I have seen.
> 
> My other doesn't show enough play or prey drive, not yet anyway, and she may never.


I was lucky- when I started doing schutzhund SERIOUSLY, about 12 years ago, I joined a club that had Ivan out almost monthly for seminars. It really was in his early days, and I learned a lot.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

That's one of my questions about his methods. how well does it work out in the end for just a companion dog. 

I never intend to compete in obedience or anything, never any bite work, and question how well the training holds up around the house, or out in the world long term without a tug toy around. How well does phasing out the game somewhat hold up long term?


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