# Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!



## mylittlebecky

I have some new information about PROIN (phenylpropanolamine(PPA) or Dexatrim(in humans))

As some people may know, Dexatrim, a diet drug containing PPA was taken off the market because it caused CVA (stroke) in humans. When the veterinary community started using this drug, now called Proin, to help with urinary incontinence there was "no known correlation with CVA in dogs." (I wonder who did a study on a compounded drug that no drug company makes any money from)

So, I was debating whether to put my little dog on Proin, my great dane has been on it for ~2years. My doctor said "here's something I found about Proin you should read before you put wala on it. I had beth [her dog] on it for years and never had any... oh shit! I bet she stroked out on me." You see beth had been on PROIN for urinary incontinence and had died ~1year ago from a stroke. Within seconds of the onset of symptoms, beth was dead. They were home and going to the car but before they could make it there she was gone. They are both vets and his clinic is literally across the street. 

I am so shocked by this. It seems like every older canine female patient seen at clinics these days is on Proin. There are other alternatives like artificial hormones (DES) and the natural hormones in in soy, but I don't think most people are given these options. It's not to say that DES is without side effects, but compare those to CVA and it seems like a better choice. Plus, we have the natural soy isoflavones to try as well (side note, I have read many great things about them and will be trying them with my dogs). Many patients on Proin aren't even having their blood pressure monitored. 

The info I saw was on VIN (so I can't link it) and it constituted of anecdotal evidence from board certified neurologists who stated that they have seen many dogs with MRI evidence of CVA with no other cause of CVA other than Proin. This, in combination with the existing info in humans, is enough to convince me. Will there ever be studies? I doubt it, because as I said earlier, this drug is compounded for very little money from several veterinary pharmacies. There is no large drug company standing behind the product in either veterinary or human medicine. I wonder why?

My dogs will not be on this drug ever again. It is the choice a urine in the house or death. I'd rather they sleep in a cage with bedding that I can change daily (or several times a day) or put underpants on them or take them out hourly during the day and deal with it at night than to loose them. The natural estrogens in soy will be my first choice.

PS I am an RVT and have worked in the field for 8 years in both day practice and the past two years in emergency medicine


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## Motebi

Thanks for the information. I hope your dog will feel better soon !


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## lovemygreys

Proin is typically safe for otherwise healthy dogs. Because a drug has one effect in humans, does not mean that same effect translates to dogs (or horses or pigs or rabbits....) I wouldn't rule out the possibility of putting any of my own dogs on it that needed it (and in fact, have had them on it in the past). We've also used DES in the past. Personally, I thought DES was more effective for one of our dogs. However, when my vet first diagnosed my dog with spay incontinence and said they wanted to prescribe DES, my first question was: Is that the only option and if not, why are you choosing DES over other options. Owners should be an active participant in their dog's health care.

Every drug has side effects. Even things as simple as an antibiotic can cause Anaphylactic shock and subsequent death if untreated. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to give my dogs anti-biotics when they need them.



> The info I saw was on VIN (so I can't link it) and it constituted of anecdotal evidence from board certified neurologists who stated that they have seen many dogs with MRI evidence of CVA with no other cause of CVA other than Proin. This, in combination with the existing info in humans, is enough to convince me. Will there ever be studies? I doubt it, because as I said earlier, this drug is compounded for very little money from several veterinary pharmacies. There is no large drug company standing behind the product in either veterinary or human medicine. I wonder why?


The plural of ancedote is not data. I'd want to read more information....

The lesson here is that owners need to be aware of adverse reactions to drugs prescribed by their vets and make educated decisions. After a discussion with a _veterinary_ doctor about the risks and return on a certain med, owners can decide what they want to do. But, I don't think people should decide "I'll NEVER give Proin/Rimadyl/Cephalexin/Metacam/insert drug here" b/c some dog somewhere may have had a reaction to it.


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## mylittlebecky

can i ask if, while your dog was on proin, did your vet recommend that your dog's BP be monitored or even a screening initial BP taken? where you given info about the potential for CVA? 
while possible side effects are to be expected when giving any type of drug... CVA is a very high risk to take. and as i stated earlier the potential for any type of study is very low. therefore any more info that would sway my opinion one way or the other, i believe, will never come to light. my personal decision about my personal dogs to never put them at this risk, is my decision and i feel like it is a good one. 
why did they take proheart off the market? because one of the "side effects" was death. a direct side effect. so if your dog didn't die as a result of proheart you might think they were being rash and that you thought proheart was a convenient drug, but if it was your dog that died as a result you would never ever use it on another dog regardless of it being on the market. 
urine in the house is a huge issue as far as the clientele in veterinary medicine. HUGE. if an animal is peeing in the house, it has one paw out the door. therefore if there is a risk (however slight) of death, this is probably going to be "worth it" for the vet, for the client, but i would say not for the dog.


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## Willowy

When Willow was diagnosed with spay incontinence, the vet sent us to the store to buy Dexatrim. My mom and I (totally out of our leagues, LOL) stood staring at the diet aid section for awhile, then we just shook our heads and went home. We kept her in doggy diapers whenever she was inside during the day, and put towels on her bed for nighttime. She eventually stopped leaking when she was about 8, I don't know why. So we managed without using anything. I guess that's good, if Dexatrim causes problems. We just didn't want to support the diet aid industry, we never thought of possible health problems. The vet told us that Dexatrim was safe.


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## melody

This makes since. My dog almost died last year and she was on Proin and amoxicellin. She got medicated immuine diease from one of the med's. All the vets tell me Proin is safe. My Mom's dog was on it and it caused to her to lay around and almost die. My dog cost me over $5000.00 to save her life . She keeps getting UTI due to her incontance. She cannot be on hormones due to this will increase her lilyhood of dying from the IMHD. If anyone has any suggestions on tried and true ides, please post to me. Thanks. 




mylittlebecky said:


> I have some new information about PROIN (phenylpropanolamine(PPA) or Dexatrim(in humans))
> 
> As some people may know, Dexatrim, a diet drug containing PPA was taken off the market because it caused CVA (stroke) in humans. When the veterinary community started using this drug, now called Proin, to help with urinary incontinence there was "no known correlation with CVA in dogs." (I wonder who did a study on a compounded drug that no drug company makes any money from)
> 
> So, I was debating whether to put my little dog on Proin, my great dane has been on it for ~2years. My doctor said "here's something I found about Proin you should read before you put wala on it. I had beth [her dog] on it for years and never had any... oh shit! I bet she stroked out on me." You see beth had been on PROIN for urinary incontinence and had died ~1year ago from a stroke. Within seconds of the onset of symptoms, beth was dead. They were home and going to the car but before they could make it there she was gone. They are both vets and his clinic is literally across the street.
> 
> I am so shocked by this. It seems like every older canine female patient seen at clinics these days is on Proin. There are other alternatives like artificial hormones (DES) and the natural hormones in in soy, but I don't think most people are given these options. It's not to say that DES is without side effects, but compare those to CVA and it seems like a better choice. Plus, we have the natural soy isoflavones to try as well (side note, I have read many great things about them and will be trying them with my dogs). Many patients on Proin aren't even having their blood pressure monitored.
> 
> The info I saw was on VIN (so I can't link it) and it constituted of anecdotal evidence from board certified neurologists who stated that they have seen many dogs with MRI evidence of CVA with no other cause of CVA other than Proin. This, in combination with the existing info in humans, is enough to convince me. Will there ever be studies? I doubt it, because as I said earlier, this drug is compounded for very little money from several veterinary pharmacies. There is no large drug company standing behind the product in either veterinary or human medicine. I wonder why?
> 
> My dogs will not be on this drug ever again. It is the choice a urine in the house or death. I'd rather they sleep in a cage with bedding that I can change daily (or several times a day) or put underpants on them or take them out hourly during the day and deal with it at night than to loose them. The natural estrogens in soy will be my first choice.
> 
> PS I am an RVT and have worked in the field for 8 years in both day practice and the past two years in emergency medicine


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## BoxMeIn21

How bad is the incontinence? Have you tried fresh parsley? My vet gave that as an option instead of putting Disco on proin. She has spay incontinence and the parsley has worked very well for us.


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## mylittlebecky

i thought i updated this thread (guess not ). i've had great success with this bladder support supplement. there are others on the market with the same ingredients as well if you google it. i've never heard of parsley, that sounds cool, i'll have to look it up (well, i've _heard_ of parsley).

and if she's on any medications (or not), please always check with your veterinarian before starting a new supplement


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## Moonshadow

BoxMeIn21 said:


> How bad is the incontinence? Have you tried fresh parsley? My vet gave that as an option instead of putting Disco on proin. She has spay incontinence and the parsley has worked very well for us.


How much parsley do you give and how often? I have 3 bitches on Proin here and another I co-own is on it. I'd love to get away from giving it if I could.

I tried DES but that just didn't seem to do it for these girls.


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## BoxMeIn21

Moonshadow said:


> How much parsley do you give and how often? I have 3 bitches on Proin here and another I co-own is on it. I'd love to get away from giving it if I could.
> 
> I tried DES but that just didn't seem to do it for these girls.


I believe the dosage is 1tbls fresh parsley per 65lb of dog. Since Disco is about 45lbs I usually give her just a little bit less than a tbls. I feed it to her once a day. 
Parsley works as a natural diuretic, so they empty their bladder fully each time.
Parsley also helps with freshing up the breath.


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## Moonshadow

BoxMeIn21 said:


> I believe the dosage is 1tbls fresh parsley per 65lb of dog. Since Disco is about 45lbs I usually give her just a little bit less than a tbls. I feed it to her once a day.
> Parsley works as a natural diuretic, so they empty their bladder fully each time.
> Parsley also helps with freshing up the breath.


Thanks, I'll give it a try....it certainly can't hurt. I'm going through Proin like crazy, even if I could get them down to a lower dose it would be worth it.

Plus....hubby bought these odd little aero grow garden things....I can get parsley bulbs for them. It's better than them sitting in my laundry room growing nothing!


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## mylittlebecky

my mother got her great dane _completely_ off proin after about a month of gradually weaning her down while using the bladder support tablets above (there are many different brands with about the same ingredients). my little dog had one incidence of incontinence (that's what started this whole thing for me, my mother had been using proin for years) she's now on the natural tablets as well and never had a reoccurrence. i'll have to research parsely now.



> INGREDIENTSumpkin Seed Powder,Rehmannia glutinosa Root,Wid Yam Extract,SOy Protein Extract,Corn Silk Powder,Saw Plametto Extract,Olive Leaf Extract,Vitamin b6.


ps i want an aero garden!


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## melody

I will look into the Parsley, if my Vet starts telling others to use it he will have to up his charges as he won't make money on the meds( maybe I won't tell him-smile). I think the reason the natural supplaments work is due to the soy which works like it does on females bodies and increases the estrogin. I used the DES in the past and it worked great, but this also can lead to IMHD, which my dog has so I can't use that. 
I love this site!!! We can all learn from each other- this is so great !!! 



mylittlebecky said:


> my mother got her great dane _completely_ off proin after about a month of gradually weaning her down while using the bladder support tablets above (there are many different brands with about the same ingredients). my little dog had one incidence of incontinence (that's what started this whole thing for me, my mother had been using proin for years) she's now on the natural tablets as well and never had a reoccurrence. i'll have to research parsely now.
> 
> 
> 
> ps i want an aero garden!


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## melody

I found this site, it brings up not only the parsely, but other natural suggestions. I like that they suggest that you do have your vet keep an eye on your pet as well. 

http://www.katberard.com/hea_incontinence.htm


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## jvetter713

Just wanted to thank all of you. I was getting ready to put my puppy on Proin and this has been a huge help. I just ordered some bladder support tablets and will continue trying natural remedies until something works. Im hopeful!


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## myamberdog

Thanks ALL you guys for flushing out (no pun) more options for this
Proin situation. My 100mg (50 mg twice a day) dose on my 15yr old 30 lb.mixed female is working less and less and she has been noticed to BREATHING HARD AT NIGHT while licking up the dribble - poor thing - I've been forced to take her outside around 4 am so she can come back in and sleep the rest of the night (ME TOO!!!!!!)

I've got a call into my vet to ask for options to this stuff, but am wondering how cutting edge or wholistic or natural most vets are these days.....I think I'm going to try that Bladder Support med some of you have said seems to help.

The heart attack story woke me up, as she has a weak heart (Ive been told) already, no need to wear it down to the possible breaking point...

Again - thanks everyone - Amber's Dad....


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## jasminesmom

Amber's Dad, I hope she is doing better and off the *ProIn.*
It Kills! It helps 70% of the dogs and kills the other 30%. Jasmine was one of the 30%. In April 09 I was told she had a slight heart murmur. In July 09, Jasmine experienced slight leakage when she slept-so my "vet" prescribed ProIn. After her first dose,(and since Jasmine had never been on meds, I the unsuspecting parent trusted by Vet-she's the one with the degree-right) Jasmine's appetite declined and she became lethagic. 4 doses later I was hand feeding her just to get her to eat something. Researched this drug-saw that Jasmine should have NEVER taken the first dose! After a short bout of vomitting, diarehha, the vet tested Jasmine and she was now in kidney failure. At this point I changed vets for it seemed the more they 'did' for her, the sicker she became. On 09-04-09 I had to help her to The Rainbow Bridge. 
The day before Jasmine's first dose she was her usual, playful vibrant 13 yo 'pup' and in fairly good health for her age. The first dose changed all of this. *ProIn* killed her. It sucked the life right out of my sweet baby girl, day by day. My home lost a very loved, devoted furbaby who's only request for 13 years was food, water, shelter and love. And I helped kill her.
I hope you have resarched other alternatives.

Cheryl and Angel Jasmine


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## nalalasmom

I only wish I had read these postings and RESEARCHED about Proin a month ago! My rottweiler was leaking at age 9, and the vet prescribed PROIN for her. It never dawned on me to at least look it up, I mean, it was prescribed by a VET...she would never give my dog a med that had a side effect of STROKE! 

My Angel Nala was very healthy, went for walks every day-good appetite, no problems cept' for the leaking (had I known about the SIDE EFFECTS of STROKE) I would have used diapers at night...
0n 1/27/10 she started BREATHING HEAVY, and collapsed outside, no pulse... No warning, lights out. Of course I cannot prove the PROIN was the fault...but this forum cites some other very similiar cases. It may not happen the 1st, 7th or 50th dose, but had I known that it had EVER happened I would have taken her off it immediately. I am just heartbroken, what a loss of a wonderful friend.


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## jasminesmom

nalalasmom.
I am so sorry.
It pains me to hear of another loss to the killer drug ProIn.
Please: contact Pegasus Lab In Pensacola FL and advise them of your loss (make sure you receive a case number), send an adverse reaction report to the FDA, and file a complaint with the Board of Veterinary Medicine in your State, tell your friends, family about the importance of receiving and reading a Client Information Sheet before giving any prescription. 

Please visit my Beloved Jasmine and read her story: http://RainbowsBridge.com/residents/JAMIN001/Resident.htm

My thoughts and prayers are with you as you mourn your loss.

Hugs

Cheryl and Angel Jasmine


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## GroovyGroomer777

omg my Jiggy has been on Proin for 3 years...I had no idea....thank you for this thread...I am throwing that garbage away.


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## nalalasmom

Thanks for the kind words, It's sure been a tough month...I will however file a report with Pegasus lab...but really, I doubt much will be done. What you ALL are doing with this forum is much more effective...GETTING THE WORD OUT! That is my main complaint...that I knew nothing about it!...(a side effect to me is itching, dry mouth, weight gain...etc) I have never had my pets on meds, so it was ignorance on my part, but it sure taught me a huge lesson! Ask questions, and read the fine print....


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## Jademom

Hi. I had a daschund who just died on Saturday, Feb 20th. I only wish I would have read threw these articles, because my little Jade would still be alive today!

In December 2009, I took her for a physical. I told the vet she had been peeing in her sleep. The vet said that her bladder muscles were weak because she is old - 15 years. Other than a slight heart murmur, she was in excellent health, and the vet said that she'd probably make it another 3 - 4 years. The vet gave me Proin to give to her.

December 8th, was her first dose. Within a day or two, she lost her appetite. She wouldn't take the liquid medicine and avoided her food. On December 22nd, I asked the doctor for chewables and told her she wasn't eating or wouldn't take the medicine. Jade took the medicine about a week or so longer, but I saw no signs of improvement (still wetting the bed) and was not eating. I then took her off the medicine. Her appetite return and she seemed normal. I cannot exactly remember the date that I stopped giving her the medicine, but I would have to say she was on the medicine for 3 weeks.

On Friday, February 19th, she was fine, playing, then at night, she started being vocal and favoring to the left. I have never heard her cry ever! She's always been a tough cookie. I rushed her to the emergency clinic, and they told me that they think she had a stroke. I couldn't understand why - she was just outside playing earlier and in good health.

Saturday morning I took her into my normal vet, and she seemed to be worse. She couldn't move, was howling/moaning - very vocal. The vet said that he didn't think she'd recover and told me the humane thing to do was put her down. I feel completely HORRIBLE for taking my dog's life. She would have been 16 in April! I believe it was this medicine, Proin. And I feel like a JA for not doing my part in researching the medicine before I gave it to her. But isn't that what vets are for??? Aren't they supposed to be the ones giving us medicine to help our animals, not kill them? I am just tarmatized over the past weekends' events.

I'm so sorry, Jade. I hope you can forgive me, because I wonder if I can ever forgive myself!!!! My heart still cries for you. xoxoxoxoxoxo


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## GroovyGroomer777

I'm so sorry you went through this. I hope your guilt will pass soon, 15 years is VERY long for a pup.

I'm so glad I found this thread. My dog hasn't had a proin since I read this. She isn't leaking yet, but honestly I would rather steam the carpet every day then have her pass early. She's only 5.

Jademom - <Hugs>


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## jasminesmom

Jades mom,

I am so sorry for your loss. It breaks my heart each time we lose another to ProIn and nothing gets done about it.

Please visit my Jasmine at: http://RainbowsBridge.com/residents/JAMIN001/Resident.htm

And read the heartbreak we went thrru.

My thoughts and prayers are with your family.

Cheryl and Angel Jasmine


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## nalalasmom

I'm so sorry to hear this happened again...It makes me sick to my stomach, because I keep going back to that night..."If I had only done this...or that!" The truth is, there is not much you could have done...especially since...you took her off of it...but don't beat yourself up (I did enough of that for both of us!) We are good dog parents, and we were at the professionals office to help our dogs. Right? The vets take on it is, "giving quality" to your dogs life!

They are going by the "ODDS" of it happening to your dog...the odds for me and you was ...we lost, and believe me, the leaking was not that big of an issue, we used diapers at night, and she seemed to chuckle about it!!! I would have done anything to keep her here...and we did the best we could with what we knew.

Anyway, I miss her everyday, so in her memory I'll be taking in a few more like her- she started out homeless, and made our house a joy to have her in...That's all I can do to help heal



Jademom said:


> Hi. I had a daschund who just died on Saturday, Feb 20th. I only wish I would have read threw these articles, because my little Jade would still be alive today!
> 
> In December 2009, I took her for a physical. I told the vet she had been peeing in her sleep. The vet said that her bladder muscles were weak because she is old - 15 years. Other than a slight heart murmur, she was in excellent health, and the vet said that she'd probably make it another 3 - 4 years. The vet gave me Proin to give to her.
> 
> December 8th, was her first dose. Within a day or two, she lost her appetite. She wouldn't take the liquid medicine and avoided her food. On December 22nd, I asked the doctor for chewables and told her she wasn't eating or wouldn't take the medicine. Jade took the medicine about a week or so longer, but I saw no signs of improvement (still wetting the bed) and was not eating. I then took her off the medicine. Her appetite return and she seemed normal. I cannot exactly remember the date that I stopped giving her the medicine, but I would have to say she was on the medicine for 3 weeks.
> 
> On Friday, February 19th, she was fine, playing, then at night, she started being vocal and favoring to the left. I have never heard her cry ever! She's always been a tough cookie. I rushed her to the emergency clinic, and they told me that they think she had a stroke. I couldn't understand why - she was just outside playing earlier and in good health.
> 
> Saturday morning I took her into my normal vet, and she seemed to be worse. She couldn't move, was howling/moaning - very vocal. The vet said that he didn't think she'd recover and told me the humane thing to do was put her down. I feel completely HORRIBLE for taking my dog's life. She would have been 16 in April! I believe it was this medicine, Proin. And I feel like a JA for not doing my part in researching the medicine before I gave it to her. But isn't that what vets are for??? Aren't they supposed to be the ones giving us medicine to help our animals, not kill them? I am just tarmatized over the past weekends' events.
> 
> I'm so sorry, Jade. I hope you can forgive me, because I wonder if I can ever forgive myself!!!! My heart still cries for you. xoxoxoxoxoxo


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## Jademom

Thank you....I'm sitting here crying because I miss her so much!!! She was fine....she was in excellent condition, and I believed and trusted my vet! I want to kick her ___ for giving me those pills!


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## Jademom

Jasminemom...

I read your blog I think on another website - your letter to Jasmine. I haven't stopped crying. I've been discussing this with my husband, who's a nurse, and he believes it was Proin that killed her. Even though she'd been off the medicine for a month or so, the lasting effects of the medicine, he believes is what killed her.

I've had Jade since I was 21. I'm 37 now, and she's been with me through the hardest and best times. I recently lost her brother, Barney, a daschund too, to colon cancer. He was also blind. He died less than 3 months ago and I'm still not okay. He was 12, almost 13 years old. I was prepared for Barney to go, but not my Jade. Jade loved everyone and yes, just like your Jasmine, would comfort anyone who was sad or neede a friend.

I keep replaying the events in my head, and I wish to GOD that I would have never taken her into see the vet. After my Barney died, I realized it was Jade peeing the bed. I felt horrible thinking she had a UTI, and I let it go for a long time. The thing that kills me is that after examining my dog, the vet told me she had a slight heart murmur and her liver was a little elavated, but nothing to be considered about because of her age. WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD SHE PUT HER ON PROIN KNOWING IT SAYS DO NOT GIVE TO ANIMALS WITH HEART ISSUES!!!!! 

It was today that I sat at work and thought and wondered what happened to my Jade? What events happened in the past few months that changed her overnight? The only thing she took was Proin. Her weight went from 13 lbs in December to 10 lbs when she died. Trust me, Jade ate everything!!!! Her eating habits changed after being on Proin, and when I took her off, it was never the same again. I counted the pills left in the bottle....she had taken 9 pills (but they were broken up in sections of 4). They went right in the trash! 

I know she would have lived another 3-4 years. She was in excellent health. I wish I would have never taken her in to see the vet. I wish I would have research Proin before I gave it to her. I feel like I killed my dog...my best friend!!! Sorry just doesn't fix this.

I told everyone - everyone on Facebook. I filed out that form. I want to do more. I want her back. It's not fair!!!!!

Please anyone don't give your dog this.....My husband said, that even though you may only give your dog it a few days, the lasting effects can be deadly.

Thanks Jasminemom for thinking of me. It's just hard with both of them


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## Jademom

Thanks GroovyGroomer.....

I tried to help my little girl by taking to see the vet b/c I thought she had a UTI. I ended up killing her giving her Proin. I can't seem to get past this. I feel HORRIBLE!!!

Yes, 15 year is a long time, but little dogs can live to 18 years, even 20 or more. There is one daschund who is 26 years and still living.

I miss my girl....please spread the word to everyone....people who don't have pets know people who do.

Thank you again.


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## Jademom

nalalasmom,

Thank you. I haven't stopped replaying everything in my mind. And just today I realized it was the Proin. The wetting the bed wasn't an issue for me either. I was used to washing her bed every day. I just thought she had a UTI. The vet said a weak bladder muscle and Proin will help, even after she told me that she had a heart murmur and it wasn't a big concern. I asked her if it was a good idea to put her on this medicine with her being so old. She said it's fine, the medicine won't cause any issues. It will help her bladder muscles. I though I was helping. She mention NO bad side effects. I trusted them! I feel so betrayed. But even though they are the ones at fault, I share the guilt because I should have looked up the medicine and researched it.

I can't say sorry to my little Jade. She's gone. I'll never get to pet her again. Watch movies with her. Watch her chase lizards. Take her for rides or ask her for a kiss. 

Sorry, I can't stop crying.........


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## jasminesmom

Jademom, nalalasmom, I so understand the guilt, the pain you are feeling. Jasmine has been gone almost 6 mns and I'm still crying, still miss her so much. We as parents of those lost to Proin can only continue this fight by telling all we know about how bad this drug is-warn pet lovers not to give this drug-warn furbaby parents to get a Client Information Sheet before we give them a drug.

We know how they were before given this drug-we know how they reacted after this drug. It is leathal.

Thoughts and prayers,

Cheryl and Angel Jasmine


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## Dog-Training-Outlet

Thank you for the posting and any updates you may come across.


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## jasminesmom

Update:

According to the FDA, I'm the only person who has complained about *ProIn??*
How can this be true? Is the FDA not telling me the truth? I don't understand.
Jasmine is not the only lost to this killer drug.

Cheryl and Angel Jasmine


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## smaree123

I realize this is a very old thread, but my dog was on Proin for a few months. After reading this thread, I realized that my 10 year old Pepper has many of the symptoms listed. She hated the Proin, but we kept mixing it in tasty food so that she would eat it. We stopped it after reading this, but she started peeing again all over everything. Now she is on hormones, however I am afraid it is too late. She is lethargic, stopped eating much of anything, and pants hard after going up or down our steps. Hopefully after a trip to the vet she will be her old playful self again. If not, please read this before putting your dog on Proin!


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## jasminesmom

smaree 123, I am so sorry that your sweet Pepper and you are going thru this. Reading this brings back a flood of not so good memories. Jasmine only took *ProIn* for 4 days and lost her battle weeks later. There is not a day that goes by that I do not shed a tear over this and kick myself for not researching it before I gave it to her. But it is so necessary to report to the FDA ANY AND ALL adverse reactions to all drugs. They won't know the harmful effects unless we tell them. Please do this for Pepper to help protect another innocent furbaby.


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## spotted nikes

smaree123 said:


> I realize this is a very old thread, but my dog was on Proin for a few months. After reading this thread, I realized that my 10 year old Pepper has many of the symptoms listed. She hated the Proin, but we kept mixing it in tasty food so that she would eat it. We stopped it after reading this, but she started peeing again all over everything. Now she is on hormones, however I am afraid it is too late. She is lethargic, stopped eating much of anything, and pants hard after going up or down our steps. Hopefully after a trip to the vet she will be her old playful self again. If not, please read this before putting your dog on Proin!


Has she had a complete blood workup recently?


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## smaree123

My sweet Pepper passed away tonight. The bloodwork showed she was very anemic, and the dr prescribed 17 mg of prednisone 2x per day. That was yesterday. I guess we'll never know if it was the Proin or not. She was a healthy vivacious 10 year old dog up until 2 weeks ago.


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## jasminesmom

smaree123, Words cannot described how saddened I am to hear this about your beloved Pepper. I am so sorry for your loss. I truly understand what you are going thru right now as I relive this every day. In my opinion, the *ProIn* triggers any underling health problems and manifests it. It cannot be proven now, but as you said and I have said a thousands times. "She was a healthy, vivacious 10 yro dog' until she took *ProIn*. So was my beloved Jasmine. Please email me at: [email protected] whenever you want to talk about Pepper. I'm thinking about you and praying for Pepper and those who loved him.


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## CoverTune

Any tips on how to get a dog to actually eat fresh parsley? I was using it for a while with my pups (mostly to help with their breath), but gave up after a couple of weeks as I was tired of washing it all out of their bowls and down the drain!

My older boy has a little bit of incontinence, so I would sure love to try the parsley again and see if it helps. He was on Propalin for a while.. I weaned him off of it about a month ago, and the leaking has come back, so I was about to start up the meds again, but would definitely rather try parsley first!


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## alison4

smaree123 said:


> I realize this is a very old thread, but my dog was on Proin for a few months. After reading this thread, I realized that my 10 year old Pepper has many of the symptoms listed. She hated the Proin, but we kept mixing it in tasty food so that she would eat it. We stopped it after reading this, but she started peeing again all over everything. Now she is on hormones, however I am afraid it is too late. She is lethargic, stopped eating much of anything, and pants hard after going up or down our steps. Hopefully after a trip to the vet she will be her old playful self again. If not, please read this before putting your dog on Proin!


 I posted here about an issue with leaking urine last spring. I had 3 dogs who got bladder infections last winter (probably viral). 1 had surgery for bladder stones. Although he has to go out frequently he was weaned off proin after 3 weeks and doesn't leak. Another dog never needed proin-antibiotics worked and he is fine. The 3rd dog has had multiple complete blood work, xrays, and urinalysis (the latest last week). No sign of any infection or organ problems but even on proin he leaves spots around 6 times a day. Without proin he leaks continually. He is only 8! His leaking has completly destroyed all carpets and even some flooring in my small house. I just don't know how to cope. I have an excellent vet and I wouldn't consider putting him down just for this but what to do?!! Does anyone know any alternatives? I'll try anything.


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## Willowy

alison4 said:


> Does anyone know any alternatives? I'll try anything.


Maybe a belly band (doggy diaper for boys)? You'd probably have to buy an extra-absorbent insert, but I think that would be a good option.


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## Marnie

I wish I had this information 8 years ago when our 14 yr. old black lab/husky, Rosie, died! On Proin 1 yr, became weak, incompetant vet tested for Lyme, etc,sent her home w/o even checking blood pressure or urine (which soon presented with blood). Within a day Rosie went into stroke/seizure activity and stopped beathing. Her heart still beat for a short time!! It was horrifying for us! When I called the same insensitive vet, she said, "Hmmm, sounds like brain showers.") (what?) I hung up and never went back there. Since then, I have suspected Proin but several vets have said they don't know of these side effects. I, too, will call the company and try to get the warning out there.


nalalasmom said:


> I only wish I had read these postings and RESEARCHED about Proin a month ago! My rottweiler was leaking at age 9, and the vet prescribed PROIN for her. It never dawned on me to at least look it up, I mean, it was prescribed by a VET...she would never give my dog a med that had a side effect of STROKE!
> 
> My Angel Nala was very healthy, went for walks every day-good appetite, no problems cept' for the leaking (had I known about the SIDE EFFECTS of STROKE) I would have used diapers at night...
> 0n 1/27/10 she started BREATHING HEAVY, and collapsed outside, no pulse... No warning, lights out. Of course I cannot prove the PROIN was the fault...but this forum cites some other very similiar cases. It may not happen the 1st, 7th or 50th dose, but had I known that it had EVER happened I would have taken her off it immediately. I am just heartbroken, what a loss of a wonderful friend.


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## CoverTune

So what are the other treatment options?


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## windancer

I wish I had the sense to google Proin before giving it to my 14 year old female lab. She had a bad heart murmer and she was on a diuretic to keep fluid out of her lungs and body cavity and due to the diuretic she could not control her bladder. The vet suggested Proin, but I thought it would be crazy to give her a drug that would increase her heart rate with her weak heart. The vet assured me it was safe and of little to no risk to her. After dealing with 3 weeks of urination in the home, I was getting frustrated. I tried to use disposable diapers, but they did not fit her. I tried other things, but with little sucess. I finally gave in and since the vet was confident that the drug would be safe, I decided to try it. Eight hours after her first dose of Proin , she collapsed and died of a heart attack. I feel terrible and want to warn everyone about this drug. My dog was at the end of her life and I know she only had so many days, possibly weeks left, but I didn't want to shorten the little amount of time she had left on this earth. Please do your research and make your decision, but if there's any doubt in your mind, don't give your dog this drug!


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## Dobermanlover

I just went through the exact same thing. My dog was 10 and very healthy, I had to force feed her too. I took her off of the Proin after 3-4 days but the damage was already done. We had to put her out of her misery 3 months later with congestive heart failure, her lungs were full of fluid and her kidney test was elevated. That is how I came to this forum. I put her on a holistic med. that worked great. I am so mad that the vet didn't give me any signs to look for. I will never give another animal of mine ANYTHING without reading the side effects first. I won't even take the med home, because then you are stuck with it. I still have a full bottle of Proin. I dont' know why we can't get together a class action on this company. If it is bad for humans, guess what, it is probally bad for dogs. I feel for you even though it has been a few years for you, I sure it is still fresh in your mind. It is so unfair. I loved my baby girl too!! Take care


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## Dobermanlover

I just went through the same exact situations. It just puts them over the edge. My dog was 10 and very healthy besides the incontinence. But now due to the damage to her heart because of the Proin she couldn't have a much needed surgery on a torn crutia ligament. The vet said her heart couldn't withstand the anethsia. We were left with no choice. By the time we found out about her heart condition, she was already in congestive heart failure and her lungs were full of fluid. Even if we gave her the med for her heart, it would cause her to have to go to the bathroom more and she was in pain because of her leg, and no surgery. I am still grieving and feeling guilty for not looking into this med before I gave to her. My thoughts and prayers are with you. We did the best we know how and trusted our vets. Never again!


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## Dobermanlover

I can safely say I will NEVER give any dog of mine or refer this drug to anyone for incontinence. If you read this forum on Proin for Dogs, there are soooo many dogs that lost their lives within days or at the most months of the first dose. They were otherwise healthy. Including my dog. I hope you never have to experience this horribly situation. The vets are telling people it is safe.
I feel it is my duty to warn others of this drug. After all it was pulled from the market for humans due to heart attacks and strokes!


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## Brave's BFF

*Alternative to Proin*

Marlene, Our 12 year old spayed German Shepherd is having a comeback of incontinence. She first had a problem a few years ago and we controlled it with ppa from the vet, then the ppa stopped working recently, even when we doubled the dose. We gave her the Leaks No More according to the directions, and it worked, and I've kept the dose to 1x a day. KK


Dear NaturalCanine.com: My daughter Mia and I want to thank you. Our 11 year old sheperd mix, Julie, had begun leaking urine a couple of months ago, and it had worsened to the point where we had difficulty enjoying her company. Her quality of life was suffering, because she'd begun to develop a rash from the constant moisture (urine). Frequent baths and the application of corn starch helped some, but we have a busy life, so found it difficult to keep up with her care. Plus, we weren't curing her, but treating symptoms only. After starting her on Leaks No More, she began improving almost immediately. Within a few days, the leaking had diminished significantly. Now, after a couple of weeks (and we weren't even very diligent about giving the medicine exactly as described, missing doses some days entirely), the leaking has stopped. I have long been an advocate of homeopathic cures for human beings ... now I know homeopathy also works for dogs. Thanks again for helping us maintain a healthy happy relationship with our furry friend. SM & MM


I just wanted to let you know how wonderful the Leaks No More is working for my 8 year old Spayed Doberman. About 5 months ago Diamond started leaking while she was sleeping. It started out small and quickly progressed to the point where she was waking up in a huge puddle of urine. She was very depressed and started to get very grouchy with our younger Doberman. I took her to the vet and they wanted to put her on PPA and when I asked about natural remedies I was told they don't work. I decided to look for one to try anyway and I found your site. Diamond has been on the Leaks No More drops for about a month and she is now waking up dry. She takes it twice a day. I am so relieved to have found this. She still has a lot of life in her and I just wanted her to be happy again. Thanks for offering such a great product! Stacey

Urinary Incontinence - Some animals cannot retain their urine in the bladder when they relax, usually when they lie down to sleep. This happens in female dogs after they have been spayed. According to Chinese medicine, there is an energy meridian that runs along the front mid line of the body. It is called ‘conception vessel’ (CV) and affects the urogenital systems. When an animal is spayed an incision is made right on the CV, near the acupuncture points used to treat urinary incontinence. One theory, expressed by Don Hamilton DVM, is that the disruption of the CV at a vulnerable age creates an energy blockage that may contribute to incontinence. NOTE: There are several reason for incontinence - among them are injuries or certain diseases. Have your vet check this out. We also have excellent homeopathic and herbal remedies for urinary incontinence.

Michael & Marlene,I wanted to let you know that the Leaks No More I ordered earlier is working like a charm!!! Rockie (my 10 year old Akita) has been taking it for a week and she's doing well. No accidents!! My vet had her on Prion for a month and then switched her to an herbal supplement. She's been on that for the past 5-6 months but I couldn't get her off of it. If I cut the pills down to 5 a day (from her usual 6) within a week she'd have "accidents". With Leaks No More, I started her on the full dose and for the past couple of days I've slowly decreased the number of drops. So far, so good. The other thing I love about the product is the price. The herbal pills cost $36+ every 20 days!!! - Nancy G


Hi I ordered your "leaks no more" a while ago and I wanted to say Thank you . Our old girl "Tinker" hasn't had any accidents at all. She wakes up dry and so is my furniture and carpet! Thanks so much. She is almost 15 and we were thinking of having her put down. I had my doubts if it would actually works but after trying it I can honestly say that this is a miracle product. I wish more veterinarians would think of using natural products instead of charging so much money for drugs that hardly work. Thanks so much. Ann

Side effects of PPA

SIDE EFFECTS

Phenylpropanolamine stimulates a “fight or flight” response. This means that the following effects may be observed: rapid heart rate, elevation in blood pressure, and restlessness. Appetite loss or reduction may be a problem. Irritability and restlessness are documented side effects that can occur in humans. It is reasonable to consider that this medication may create similar effects in our pets.

CONCERNS AND CAUTIONS

When initiating therapy with phenylpropanolamine, it is important not to expect an immediate change in urinary incontinence. Several days of proper dosing will be needed before effect can be assessed. Before using phenylpropanolamine to control urinary incontinence, it is important to rule out other medical causes of incontinence such as kidney disease and bladder infection. These latter conditions are progressive and should be identified early in their course for meaningful treatment results.

Phenylpropanolamine should be stored in containers which protect it from light. Light exposure leads it to lose potency.

Phenylpropanolamine acts by causing the release of a hormone and neurotransmitter called “norepinephrine.” With chronic use, it is possible to deplete the body’s stores of norepinephrine and the patient will appear to become “resistent” to the effects of the drug. This phenomenon is well described in people who use phenylpropanolamine as a decongestant but it is unclear as to whether this occurs in dogs and cats.

Because of its effects in elevating heart rate and blood pressure, phenylpropanolamine should not be used in patients with heart disease or pre-existing high blood pressure. This includes patients with glaucoma, hyperthyroidism, and diabetes mellitus as well as those with certain types of cardiovascular disease.

Check with your veterinarian if there is any question.

Recently the FDA has asked manufacturers of human phenylpropanolamine products to voluntarily withdraw their products from the market due to the rare but serious cerebral hemorrhage reaction seen occasionally in humans suffering from high blood pressure. Back to top


I love your products, my 3 year old weimaraner was on a path to start PPA and I didn't want to do it. The side effects and the idea of a drug for the rest of her life was not settling. The vet tried all sorts of drugs to help my dog and all had a short term fix. Until....Now. I am happy to say my dog hasn't had any accidents since two weeks after I started her on your products. I mix the sea mussel in her food and the drops in her water. It's been a life saver for my dog and my house. Thanks Carey


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## Dobermanlover

I am so glad that you found a holistic medicine for your dog instead of Proin. It makes me feel better knowing that my post and others have help save your dog's life.
thank you for responding. It has been 2 months and I am still grieving the lost of my dog. I miss her but feel guilty getting another dog. I hope your dog continues to improve. The medicine I used was from Natural Pet .com. for incontinence. Just in case you want to look at their web site. They have everything holistic.
Take care




Dobermanlover said:


> I can safely say I will NEVER give any dog of mine or refer this drug to anyone for incontinence. If you read this forum on Proin for Dogs, there are soooo many dogs that lost their lives within days or at the most months of the first dose. They were otherwise healthy. Including my dog. I hope you never have to experience this horribly situation. The vets are telling people it is safe.
> I feel it is my duty to warn others of this drug. After all it was pulled from the market for humans due to heart attacks and strokes!


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## Brave's BFF

Know that your grief is a choice and that your dog would not want you to suffer, especially since your dog is free from suffering and will be waiting for you on the other side. Talk to your dog. Ask your dog to bring a new companion to you. Soon enough, it will be clear to you. A new pet will be brought to you in a way that will be unmistakably meant to be. 
Guilt is meant to keep you from doing harm, not to keep you from sharing your love. Gratitude cures all. Honor your old friend by being grateful for the experience you two had. Know that death is only a change of form, not an end...and that this "death" is saving lives by giving you a cause to speak out about the dangers of this drug.
All is well. Let yourself believe that truth and you will be able to feel it.


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## Dobermanlover

Brave's BFF said:


> Know that your grief is a choice and that your dog would not want you to suffer, especially since your dog is free from suffering and will be waiting for you on the other side. Talk to your dog. Ask your dog to bring a new companion to you. Soon enough, it will be clear to you. A new pet will be brought to you in a way that will be unmistakably meant to be.
> Guilt is meant to keep you from doing harm, not to keep you from sharing your love. Gratitude cures all. Honor your old friend by being grateful for the experience you two had. Know that death is only a change of form, not an end...and that this "death" is saving lives by giving you a cause to speak out about the dangers of this drug.
> All is well. Let yourself believe that truth and you will be able to feel it.


Thank you so much for those encouraging, timely, words of comfort. On thurs. the day of your response. We picked up our new baby 7week old doberman. She is so cute and smart. I still do talk to Penny. She was such an awesome dog, I know Angel will be a good dog too. God is good and you are right, I will see Penny again on the other side. I know that she loved us as much as we loved her. The breeder we got Angel from felt that God sent us to her. Angel had a fractured tibia and the original buyer backed out. And so we were able to get her. God answered our prayers as well as the breeders prayers. And then I read this from you as a confirmation! Thanks again! Jeanette


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## Brave's BFF

Awesome! Congrats on your new arrival. I knew it would all work out. Best wishes!!!


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## TTs Towel

I had a dog on proin for many years. Never had any problems.


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## Dobermanlover

Thank you! she is so sweet and smart. I cryed when we were bringing her home. It was a happy/sad time. I am really enjoying her. I still miss Penny. Angel went in the back yard for the first time and she layed down on Penny's grave. I feel there is a bond somehow. 
Thanks again.


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## allegra

I have been researching the use of Proin in dogs with incontinence. My dog (a smooth collie) recently developed post spay incontinence (she is only 7). We're not talking a few drops, we're talking floods at time - but all during rest and sleep - and spots about the size of a quarter other times. Towels, blankets, wash, wash, wash. No odor, little color if any. I was searching for natural remedies and came across the info on Proin on MANY sites. (Let me insert right here, that I was not considering giving it to her once I read that it was the old "Dexatrim" that was taken off the market for causing strokes/death in young women). 
I would like to share with you what all I have found (and a possible solution that I am using to solve my dog's health issue). First of all, I do not think that all the vets are "remiss" in prescribing this. Unless you were researching it on the internet (as we are), you would never know about the hundreds of dogs that have clearly suffered (including death) from it. Most people do NOT know how to report to the FDA; and most people don't even know how to report to the pharmaceutical manufacturer of a drug. In this case, it appears that the manufacturer (based on my reading from people who are reporting it) are being less than helpful. Loss of sales mean loss of dollars. Even the skeptics on here know that. Vets deal with hundreds and hundreds of drugs in their practice - they may be unaware of the risks (and as others have said, most/many drugs come with risks). The hundreds of anecdotes I have read may seem like a LOT of dogs (and it IS), but spread across the US, across the numerous vet practices, many/most practices will not have even seen one of these dogs with a reaction. My point? Inform your VET (in a positive and respectful way) about your research and readings here and on other sites. If you have a dog with a reaction, take the time to file a complaint, even if the dog recovered. 
Secondly, what I observed is that the reactions seem to be in a few "categories". One is a reaction where the dog becomes ill, has vomiting and diarrhea, is lethargic and "off". Most of these (anecdotally speaking) seem to have recovered if meds were stopped quickly (especially in a younger dog). The second "category" it seemed to me, were dogs who panted, and paced, or shook, drooled, were often "wild eyed", racing hearts (makes sense as a "diet pill"). Again, in most younger dogs in these anecdotes, if the meds were stopped, the dog recovered. (Please don't think I am saying ALL of them recovered - just saying there was a "common thread" to many of the stories). The third "category" were the dogs who died - MANY of them after just one dose, with catastrophic symptoms. Many of these dogs seemed to be older (10-13 perhaps) - many but not all - and stopping the meds did not seem to help. I read these same stories over and over and over. Most of the people were not "hysterical" nor really "out on a limb" - they were devastated, but the stories they relayed appeared simple and factual and made real sense to me. Do I think ANY of it was "coincidental"? Of course, especially in an older age group - perhaps a few. But for the most part, it appears to me that the majority of these dogs were affected by the Proin - and lost their life prematurely (whether that was by one day, or 5 years, etc). 
Has Proin been given safely to zillions of dogs? Apparently so. Do I understand how difficult dealing with incontinence in your dog is? Yes, I am going through it. I would love if there was an amazing medication out there with no side effects - but there does not appear to be yet, and if so, it's not Proin.
Here is what (in my opinion) it comes down to. Those people whose dogs have had reactions should make EVERY effort to file a report with both the manufacturer and the FDA. They must tell their vets (and yes, I understand some vets are "disbelieving" - but does this necessarily make them bad vets? I don't think so. If they have never seen it in their practice, and they have no warnings, I'm sure they are skeptical sometimes). But I intend to relay this info to my vet for her own information and to do as she wants with it (she is a GREAT vet). 
And finally we all have to decide if we are willing to take the chance with our dog. There may be reasons for some to do so, and it is not for me to judge them. I simply know that I cannot take the chance. I cannot in good conscience, no matter how much drudgery of cleaning up is involved, give Proin to my dog. Not knowing what I now know. Plain and simple. I am a reasonably intelligent person who has read HUNDREDS of emails etc - and has sifted through some that appear "over the top" perhaps in presentation - but I have no reason to doubt the facts of all of these people. So...I will not be giving Proin to my dog.
So where has that left me. Since my dog is female, it is likely the lessening of the production of estrogen. I read a lot of positive review of a product from Vetri-science that contains soy proteins, saw palmetto, pumpkin seed, etc (I have no connection with them in ANY way, do not sell it, do not own stock). Since my vet promotes the use of natural products where appropriate, especially soy for incontinence, I ordered it. With 2 doses she went from voluminous leaking when sleeping to a 90 percent improvement. I also read MANY entrees regarding both soy milk and/or tofu for incontinence in dogs (due to the phytoestrogens). I added a small amount of tofu to my dogs food (she eats them as treats - i touch them in her wet food and they of course take on the flavor of her food) at the time she is eating her meals. I found info on holistic vet sites that recommended 1 lb per week for a 55-60 pound dog (she is 65). I buy the low fat type, cut it up into 7 equal portions, cut that portion in half (so i have 2 per day)...it's a relatively small cube that i dice up). Since I added the tofu to the 2 times per day pills...no leaking. I also bought soy milk and intend to switch it up with the tofu perhaps. 
Additionally I read MANY anecdotes of people curing incontinence more or less through removing grains from the food. Since I already did not feed her wheat or corn, i decided to change to a limited ingredient food (Wellness salmon and potato). No grains. So far, so good. 
I think there are options to try. I have read MANY successful stories of using soy milk, tofu and "natural" bladder pills from good companies. My vet is in agreement with me all the way. So far, no leaking. I'm a happy camper.
Thanks so much for hanging in and reading this - it's a subject that is very important to me.


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## Fade

People only hear the bad experiences for the most part. 

You would not believe the amount of side effects in the majority of medications distributed. I mean just look at the commercials on TV when they advertise and then go through a list of side effects. I do not put my dogs or myself on medication unless I have too. Medication has its place. My family members are on a host of important medications they need to take. My husband takes anti-depressants. The list of side effects for those are horrible. We have never had to deal with the serious side effects thankfully.
Last week a friend of mine she was in her 30s. Was given an injection for a condition she had... I was not able to get details because her family was unable to take visitors, non the less questions. but it put her into a coma and shut down all her organs. She was brain dead for a few days until the family made that heart wrenching decision to take her off life support. I am going to her funeral on Saturday. 

to me its a risk to take when your put on a medication. I know a few people whose dogs are on Proin and they are thankful for it. Most people do not have the patience for a dog with urinary incontinence and I have seen people put their animals to sleep because of it sadly.


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## Justdogs

<<We've also used DES in the past. Personally, I thought DES was more effective for one of our dogs. However, when my vet first diagnosed my dog with spay incontinence and said they wanted to prescribe DES, my first question was: Is that the only option and if not, why are you choosing DES over other options. >>

Maybe because DES is a much better AND safer drug than Proin??? DES in a hormone drug that was originally developed for humans, but it was found to have a potential to cause birth defects, so it was taken of the market for HUMANS. The main reason for incontinence in dogs? Spay incontinence! Um...that means the ONE reason this drug was taken off the market, birth defects, does NOT apply. 

Your above quote doesn't quite make sense...you said DES was "more effective" for one of your dogs...but then you said "when my vet first diagnosed my dog with spay incontinence and said they wanted to prescribe DES" Is that the same dog, or a subsequent dog? If it was a subsequent dog...why would you question DES if you had good experiences with DES with your previous dog? 

I had a German Shepherd dog on DES for SEVEN years...in her particular case, I only had to give this drug to her two or three times a week. She lived to 15 years of age....extremely active during that time. In addition to the incontinence issue, she also had chronic bladder infections, which I successfully solved with Cranberry pills...the two were probably connected, but DES was a lifesaver, and THANK GOD, we can still obtain this drug...which as I have said, is a HORMONE based drug, meant to mimic the hormones needed to naturally contract female internal organs...RATHER THAN PROIN which is chemical based and unnaturally restricts not only the female stuff, but EVERYthing in the poor dogs body...meaning the entire vascular system, thus leading to strokes and other nasty issues.

For sure, DES is not indicated for female dogs that might be bred, but if a breeder is having chronic issues of incontinence with his/her intact bitches, then I submit these bitches should NOT BE BRED. I personally would never breed something that has a chronic issue, because the last thing I want to do is pass this issue on to unsuspecting pet owners.

So in short....DES, despite what people want to say about it, is a heck of a lot more effective AND safe that proin...which is a travesty. DES would have slipped from obscurity except that so many vets believed in it that they convinced compounding companies to continue to produce it...I'll let each of you to research for yourself the concept of compounding drugs.


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## allegra

I agree that there are risks with medications - how could I not? It's on every tv commercial for everything out there. But honestly, would I take a medication without doing some research, and thinking hard about it? would I take blood pressure meds if I had the option to try non-medication options first? there are certainly times when using the meds, even with risk, is the best option you have. And yes, some people could not/would not deal with incontinence in their dog long term. That is for each person to decide. I am simply saying that I feel that there are good, natural options out there to TRY first. I am saying that while the FDA for HUMANS isn't perfect, it's far from it for animals. And the same with pharmaceutical manufacturers for ANIMALS. I feel they are far less worried about side effects vs making money than manufacturers for humans (not that the money side of things doesn't win out there, also!). But it's less regulated for dogs and less oversight. So I think there are FAR MORE cases of death than are reported. People don't know how to report it. And vets don't have to. I think Proin is far more dangerous (risky) than people are made aware of. I am sure that everyone wishes there were magic meds that solved dog incontinence with no risk- but trust me, Proin is not it. I'm simply encouraging people to TRY the natural route, try the soy milk, try the tofu, and try the "herbal" route (Vetri-Science and others). It's working like a charm for me, and it takes a load of worry off my shoulders about giving anything to her that would harm her. Up to everyone individually to make their decisions.


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## Candydb

I dont know what to say, my 3 year old giant schnauzer has pretty bad leakage (just empties her bladder as soon as she naps or snoozes) and she is not liked much by my husband so anything that controls her incontinence is a must for us, I will take a look at the bladder pills, but Proin has been really useful for us for the past 2 years, but then again she is a healthy young dog (it was the spay that caused this, its made me rethink spay-- I think the heats were easier to manage!)...


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## Hambonez

allegra said:


> I am saying that while the FDA for HUMANS isn't perfect, it's far from it for animals. And the same with pharmaceutical manufacturers for ANIMALS. I feel they are far less worried about side effects vs making money than manufacturers for humans (not that the money side of things doesn't win out there, also!). But it's less regulated for dogs and less oversight.


Of course, you have to consider that before medications reach a human trial, they are tested on animals. In fact, if the animal trials went very poorly, the drug would likely never be trialed in humans, so I would imagine there is actually extensive testing on any drug used in humans that is also used in animals. Whether or not they're all tested on dogs/cats would be another question, but all the drugs that went through human trials were tested on animals first.

Conversely, you can't say a drug is dangerous for an animal because it's dangerous for a human. Take Tylenol for example - it causes liver failure in dogs and cats and kills them. We pop it for a headache without a second thought.


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## Fade

Candydb said:


> I dont know what to say, my 3 year old giant schnauzer has pretty bad leakage (just empties her bladder as soon as she naps or snoozes) and she is not liked much by my husband so anything that controls her incontinence is a must for us, I will take a look at the bladder pills, but Proin has been really useful for us for the past 2 years, but then again she is a healthy young dog (it was the spay that caused this, its made me rethink spay-- I think the heats were easier to manage!)...


When not spaying a dog you worry about the deadly condition called pyometra. 1 in 4 intact female dogs can be effected by this.

There are many reasons for urinary incontinence in dogs, but a big reason for this after a spay is no estrogen. 
See if the doctor would proscribe you a drug called Diethylstilbestrol. The lack of estrogen in a spayed female dog can cause this problem. Diethylstilbestrol is a synthetic form of estrogen and does its job basically.


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## Candydb

Fade said:


> When not spaying a dog you worry about the deadly condition called pyometra. 1 in 4 intact female dogs can be effected by this.
> 
> There are many reasons for urinary incontinence in dogs, but a big reason for this after a spay is no estrogen.
> See if the doctor would proscribe you a drug called Diethylstilbestrol. The lack of estrogen in a spayed female dog can cause this problem. Diethylstilbestrol is a synthetic form of estrogen and does its job basically.


 Thanx for the consideration, we havent started with a new vet yet (moved to the area a few months ago, she has been healthy no problems at all except the inconintence) but I will ask my next vet when she gets her first checkup, btw are there cancer issues with the diethystilbestrol similar to in women taking estrogen/synthetics after menapause?...


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## Fade

Candydb said:


> Thanx for the consideration, we havent started with a new vet yet (moved to the area a few months ago, she has been healthy no problems at all except the inconintence) but I will ask my next vet when she gets her first checkup, btw are there cancer issues with the diethystilbestrol similar to in women taking estrogen/synthetics after menapause?...


I have no idea. I know that many issues like that do not effect the dogs the same because their lifespans are so short. I think that has a lot to do with the testing of products for dogs. ( this is my theory ) I would imagine you could use research. and I would imagine that pyometra would be a much higher risk.

I was reading something about how the age of the dog when you spay them decreases the chance of this incontinence issue. I guess after the first heat cycle it increases the risk because of the female hormones. but if you spay them before the first heat cycle you do not have so many hormones for the body to be depending on. it was quite a big difference. I never looked into it before because we have never had a dog come back incontinent after a spay , I was unaware that it was so common. It is interesting to research.


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## Candydb

The person I got the dog from, her females have a tendency for this-- but I am also realizing she also encourages to wait til after first heat to do this (and so we did, actually the bitch came into heat the week before her scheduled spay).... I did not realize that waiting could be a cause of this. Its such a shame, she is such an athletic, healthy beautiful girl in other ways....


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## Fade

Candydb said:


> The person I got the dog from, her females have a tendency for this-- but I am also realizing she also encourages to wait til after first heat to do this (and so we did, actually the bitch came into heat the week before her scheduled spay).... I did not realize that waiting could be a cause of this. Its such a shame, she is such an athletic, healthy beautiful girl in other ways....


This is the first time I have read this about the first heat. It may be speculation? I read it on a few sights but many people insist that it is healthier for a female dog to have their first cycle. So There is probably pro's and cons to both choices? I would not base your choice off of these statistics because I am sure there are many problems fixing your dog before the first heat cycle causes. Myself I shared the opinion of fixing them after the dog is full grown. I always fix my male dogs after the age of 2 because it promotes good development. I am not sure if this is the same for females or not but hormones affect development in a lot of ways and that is my opinion.


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## CatsGotStuff

Hi I am Catrina, and I had Juno on Proin for over a year and she was leaking bad. The Dr. put her on Proin then after the year he put her both Proin and DES since Proin wasn't completely stopping the urine. But before the DES started Juno started having Seizures. I looked up on the internet side effects of Proin and Seizures and Stokes are two of them!! First Juno started with Seizures that were where her eyeballs rolled back in her head, then it went into GranMall Seizures where she went blind for up to three hours. It was pitiful to watch her and Heart wrenching to bear and I thought I would loose her each time. This was all Proin's fault!! Now for the rest of her life she has to take two medication's to help control the Seizures and I pray they don't happen again. Unfortunately sometimes they break through. Don't put your Dog on Proin, It's Poison in my opinion!! I hope I can help you make your mind's decision up. We now use a drug that just came over from Europe this year called Incurin, 1mg Tablet 30 tablets a box. We found they work great and I haven't noticed any side effects so far in six months and they stop the leakage!! If for some reason she has a spot, I give one extra pill at night and that takes care of that!! I have not seen any problems with this medication and neither of the other meds worked for Juno at all!! the only thing they did is almost kill her. I wish you luck every one. Please stay away from Proin!! Good Luck!! Catrina & Juno


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## BernerMax

Interestingly enough, my dog who was on Proin nightly-- seems to have improved (there was another OP who said their dog seemed to resolve on her own around age 8?) --My dog is now almost 4... Also now that we live in the country 4 nights a week she sleeps very lightly (the dogs are in and out half the night investigating), so maybe that is part of it.... I do not know if its any better, but she only gets a dose once or twice a week now, when I am in town working and she is upstairs in the apartment....
I wish the natural alternatives were more readily publicized vs just randomly ordering something off the Internet....


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## Justdogs

I think people need to understand that Proin isn't 100% bad...for sure in this thread, some people seem happy with the results. The problem is....when it DOES go bad, it goes REALLY bad. DES has no such history. I've rarely heard of it not working, but more importantly, I've NEVER heard of it causing any problems. Diet pills in general have been associated with all sorts of problems in humans....it is pretty much a watered down version of any number of illicit and illegal drugs currently threatening our streets....PROIN is no exception. I've never used PROIN (thank God), and thank God, I've only had one dog that needed some sort of medical intervention due to incontinence, and DES cleared that up, with two pills a week...it is a HORMONE supplement. PROIN is an actual drug. YES DES was banned by the FDA for HUMANS because it was shown to ONLY cause birth defects in newborns. Well....let's get real....the people on this forum typically are dealing with incontinence issues associated with spaying, so, hmmmm...guess birth defects are off the table. If you have an intact bitch young enough to have puppies that is having issues with incontinence, I would caution ever breeding from such a dog/bitch. Why pass that trait on to further generations?

Catrina...I feel for you. I can't even wrap my head around what your vet did. But that is a whole other discussion.....maybe we should have a discussion that is titled "what are the 10 things your vet says to you that you may want to question, or what signs are present that tells you that a search for a different vet should be considered. Not all vets are open, not all vets are ethical, not all vets enjoy sparring with an informed owner, which actually spurs them, because they have the wonderful trait of curiosity, to either prove you wrong, or at least have the humility to admit you were right. Ultimately....WE are the advocates for our dogs...just because someone has an office and a title, doesn't mean they have the internal constitution for continued learning. Most of my vets don't like me, but they respect me, because they KNOW I won't bow at their feet...I'm that annoying five year old that always asks WHY. And if their answers don't sound genuine....I'm on a mission to learn. That is MY job, as I see it, as my dog's advocate. I like the fact my vet may "groan" when he/she sees me on the schedule...but I DO know they won't try to feed me bulls**t. Think about it.

Justdogs


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## sassafras

Actually DES can potentially cause bone marrow suppression and anemia in dogs. 

Lesson: No drug is free of potential side effects, and you always have to just weigh the risks and benefits.


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## winniec777

sassafras said:


> Actually DES can potentially cause bone marrow suppression and anemia in dogs.
> 
> Lesson: No drug is free of potential side effects, and you always have to just weigh the risks and benefits.


Sass--any opinion on incurin? Have you tried it with your patients? I asked my vet about it. She said she doesn't like trying drugs on her patients until they have more of a track record but said she would look into it. From what I read, it was only approved last October for U.S. market. Seems to work well with females in particular.


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## pmayer

WOW - found this forum about 4 years too late. I had a female (lab mix) on Proin for about a year and she died suddenly at age 12. Got another female (Golden Retriever mix) who was 2 when she became incontinent and she took Proin for about a year when she suddenly died last Sunday. Started asking what did these 2 dogs have in common - how could these 2 female dogs die so suddenly and the answer is Proin.

My veterinary's office had not heard of this (or at least that's what I was told). What do we need to do to require warnings on this medication? I was not warned of ANY side effects. Who needs to be contacted to push for (minimally) warning notices on this medication? If I had been made aware of the possible side effects, I could have made the decision to find other options for the incontinence. Neither of my dogs showed ANY signs of problems at their annual checkups - they both just suddenly died.


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## Kajones1976

I want to first say how sorry I am to those who have lost their dogs due to proin. My 13 y/o lab Winnie was prescribed proin, 50 mg 2x day. After the first 3 doses she had bloody liquid stools, she was vomiting, then chugging water, then vomiting more. She did not urinate. She walked around the yard aimlessly and just looked at me like "what is wrong with me, mom?" The last dose (dose 3) was on Sunday morning. On Tuesday morning the bloody diarhea and vomiting was so bad I swore she was dying in front of my eyes. We rushed the the emergency vet who said go figure, "there was no way the proin caused the reaction". I remained with my precious girl all days monitoring her. She showed some small signs of improvement, like holding down little sips of water. Tuesday evening, still alarmed, we weny to my normal vet (the dr that prescribed proin was on vacation). They gave Winnie a shot to hydrate her and antibiotics to help with the diarhea. Her blood work came back normal today and she is eating, drinking and able to urinate regularly. I feel like I am one of the lucky ones whose dog made it though. I am going to write to FDA, my vet, and urge my fb friends to share the horrible effects of
Proin. 

Hugs to all of you who went through something similar. I wish I would have found this website before ever giving her one of those dumb pills.


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## beansidhe

Given a developing incontinence in our 14 year old female border collie mix, the veterinarian suggested Proin. We started her on the drug (before seeing this thread) and within 24 hours she was nearly totally blind (no previous vision problems that we had seen). 

Our regular veterinarian and a second vet at the practice who actually started her on Proin claimed there were no adverse effects like this in the literature. We then took her to an eye specialist who said while he could not rule this out with 100 percent certainty, it seemed too remote a possibility to be at all reasonable. On the other hand, it did not appear to be SARDs (a fairly well-known cause of sudden blindness in dogs) or a stroke so the cause is unknown. It was not sudden hypertension because her blood pressure was fine.

Sadly, it seems now that the incontinence was mostly caused of a special diet she was on to prevent a re occurrence of bladder stones, which made her drink a lot more. Now, on a normal diet, we have been able to reduce the daily dose of Proin and hope we can in awhile cut it out completely.

I have not seen any other mention of this blindness in connection with Proin. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but the timing certainly seems suspicious to me. I thought I should mention it just to get it on the record. Our dog is coping a bit better now with not really being able to see, but it is a terrible thing to happen at any age, let alone when she is nearly 15.


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## BVespone

I have a 3 year old Siberian Husky who has recently been showing signs of resting incontinence. After ruling out a urinary tract infection, it seems that it may be due to spay incontinence so I am researching options. For anyone that would like some more information beyond the stories of isolated individuals, here are some references for you:

FDA approves Proin for use in animals in 2012:
http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ProductSafetyInformation/ucm277198.htm

Here is a document that was submitted to get Proin approved. It has the results of several mutli-center, placebo controlled studies that tested the drug in hundreds of dogs. From this study, it does show that it is safe and effective to use, but it is important to note that they excluded dogs with any existing neurological conditions or urinary tract infections. So it seems that it is very important to ensure that your dog does not have any additional underlying conditions before using Proin. The studies carefully controlled dosing, as well as monitoring blood pressure and several other physiological measures. My dog has had some seizures (she is NOT on proin currently) so I am researching all options. 
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../UCM296349.pdf

A summary about the safety portion of this study:
There were 184 dogs enrolled, and there were adverse side effects associated with the drug. I can't paste the table here without it getting all messed up, but click the link above and jump to page 10/22. There are certainly side effects that you should know about. Of the 184 dogs, there were no deaths related directly to Proin, but two dogs died during the study due to unknown/unrelated causes (hepatitis and some unknown brain mass).
_
Adverse Reactions: There were two deaths during the study. A PROIN-treated dog developed a cranial abdominal mass effect, vomiting, and lethargy with an unknown relation to treatment. The dog was euthanized and necropsy declined. A placebo dog developed liver insufficiency and was euthanized. Necropsy revealed hepatitis unrelated to treatment. Two PROIN -treated dogs demonstrated multiple adverse reactions suspected to be drug-related. One dog displayed disorientation, nervousbehavior, anorexia, 7.7% body weight loss, and hypertension with proteinuria. Another dog showed restless behavior, panting, lethargy, 2.8% body weight loss, and proteinuria. 

_


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## GermanPickles

I know this is an old thread but wanted to add my experience for the future answer seekers.

My pup was spayed at a very young age, as I got her from the humane society. The first year I had her she experienced incontinence pretty frequently. I wasn't too concerned until month 7 or 8, I knew she was potty trained at that point but was still spotting and soaking her bed at night. I took her to the vet my family has been going to for the last 20 some years. He had prescribed her proin. She did fine on it for a few months, but after discovering the possible effects, I choose to take her off it. I understand if you're dog doesn't go down quickly, they're probably ok to take it. I didn't see the possible risk being worth it or supporting the company that makes the drug. Nothing against the vet, maybe he just didn't know?

She was pretty normal after I took her off it. She couldn't hold her bladder for very long but it was under control. It's recently came back on and has been cleared of any other possible disease/infection by my new vet. I picked up some leaksnomore and some petnatural vitamins, both should be here in a few days. Will report back with results soon!


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## swiegie

Thank you for your post. My beautiful dog died from proin.


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## Chucknycuws

I have a female yellow lab, who turns 11 this May (2016). She is a very energetic, vibrant, happy dog. People are (still to this day) shocked when I tell them how old she is. People usually think she's around 3. Back in 2014, she started becoming incontinent. She would leak as well as pee in her sleep, and when we woke in the morning, her hind legs would be all wet. Our vet prescribed proin. I don't remember the dosage, but I believe it was 1/2 a pill morning and night. A few weeks later, after having a bowel movement, she then expected to play fetch with her ball. Which is our usual routine. After one toss of the ball, she retrieved it and then as she started to return to me, she stopped, wobbled a bit, and fell with an audible thump to the ground. I ran to her and she laid there, panting heavily. Her eyes were open, and there was no thrashing. She stood back up,after about five seconds and seemed a bit "off", partly because I was sort of freaked out. We walked home calmly, and after a few minutes,mwanted to play fetch again. I did not call the vet, but was definitely spooked. A few weeks later it happened again, so I called the vet and we went in for an exam. He found nothing. The episodes started to happen a bit more often, and were typically occurring in the morning during her first walk after waking up, and after doing her poop, and giving the ball one or two tosses (it's not like we were playing fetch for an hour and she was exhausted). After many visits and tests with first neurologists and then cardiologists, they suspected she had a heart condition called vaso-vago. She was placed on additional heart meds, and then had a heart monitor surgically implanted in her so I could record the episodes and they could see what her heart was doing. The episodes continued to become more,frequent and the cardioloigist was considering a pacemaker. He (the cardiologist) then asked me when these started and when she started the proin. Before inserting her with a pacemaker, he asked me to stop all meds, immediately. He then suspected it was the proin causing these episodes. Almost immediately, she got a lot of her puppy energy back, and, now 13 months after stopping all meds, she has not had one single episode. The proin almost killed her by slowing down her heart.

Now, the incontinence has returned and I am very apprehensive to start her on any new meds. I have been reading about incurin and someone else told me about an herbal treatment called Bladder Strength. Does anyone have any suggestions or who can refer me to a specialist in the NYC area? Thanks.


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## lzrddr

This has been a fascinating read. It seems Phenylpropanolamine has been thoroughly dragged through the 'witch-hunt' coals as have many other useful and relatively safe drugs over the last few years, blamed for assorted deaths of pets that had the unfortunate bad luck to die while on this medication... the 'cause and effect' part of the equation being unscientifically ignored (as are most unprofessionally diagnosed pet deaths). 

One thing we all must remember (easy now that there are so many drug ads, and lawsuit ads concerning drugs, on TV) is that just about ALL drugs CAN have side effects, and sometimes those side effects are severe. When one decides to use a drug, normally one must consider the 'pros and cons' of such use- in other words, consider all the listed side effects and decide if these are worth the risk if the desired effect of the drug actually occurs. I have found that owners that have pets with incontinence are very dissatisfied with their quality of life living with an incontinent pet, and often consider euthanasia unless something can be done to control it. With that perspective, most effective drugs used for incontinence are worth the risk, even if the risks might be severe in some cases. 

However, phenylpropanolamine has relatively few and relatively non-severe side effects in the dog (though one would certainly not know that after reading all these reports of dire consequences). I looked into many of the claims above, starting with a VIN (Veterinary Information Network) search of PROVEN phenylpranolamine side effects in the cardiology, neurology, urology and most other departments that would have knowledge of this drug (as most do as it is a very commonly prescribed medication). I could find no specialists opinion that felt this was a dangerous drug, even for those dogs with mild cardiac conditions or neurologic problems. True, it can raise blood pressure somewhat, but all the specialists felt the infinitesimal increases were not significant, and any pet that was having hypertension related symptoms while on Proin were unlikely due to the drug (though some suggested decreasing the dose, or stopping it just in case- as noted above over and over, there are other options to treat incontinence). True it can exacerbate arrhythmia and probably should not be used in dogs with significant cardiac disease, particularly those that have arrhythmias (but now we are talking about pretty sick dogs, not healthy ones). True it can cause anxiety and nervousness, though, again, rarely enough to be a significant source or complication of disease, though sometimes enough of an irritation for an owner that they discontinue the drug anyway. And certainly true it was discontinued on the human side of medicine due to rare (but deadly) stroke complications (rarely seen in canines according to the VIN experts- none which stated they have seen a single lethal case in dogs taking the prescribed doses of phenylpropanolamine). True, at very high doses (toxic levels) it can be a toxic drug (as just about any drug can at massive overdoses) and there is sufficient information about the dangers of dogs overdosing on this drug. But interestingly of the 1286 cases of canine overdoses recorded by the ASPCA poison control center between 2009 and 2013, over 995 had significant symptoms (ranging from hypertension, vomiting and arrhythmias down to agitation, red skin and lethargy) no deaths were listed. 

There is very little 'real' information (aside from anecdotal information on sites such as this) showing that Proin is a dangerous drug for normal healthy dogs. I have to admit is not usually my first drug of choice to treat female urinary incontinence mostly because I like my clients' relief when they use estrogen-based products that allow them often to treat their pets far less frequently (often as little as weekly) instead of 2-3x a day as is the prescribed dose of Proin. I find estrogen drugs (Premarin and DES primarily) to be at least as effective and often more so than Proin, though it has the inconvenience of not being able to be sold through a veterinary office (either has to be compounded, or purchased from a human pharmacy (and STILL needs to be compounded if for smaller dogs). However, this is usually a relatively minor inconvenience for most owners. Note that estrogen drugs also have a list of possible side effects (though most have never been seen by most clinicians are university vets).

I have personally prescribed Proin many hundreds of times over the last 15-20 years (prior to that, it was not called Proin, but simply phenylpropanolamine, PPA or Dexatrim) and though I certainly have not been able to keep up with all my patients, I have not had a single lethal side effect, or even any that I would call severe, that I know of. I have had a few patients get jittery, anxious or obviously uncomfortable with the way they feel, enough to lead the owner to discontinue the drug. But in most, if not all those cases, we were able to find another acceptable alternative (one of the reasons I know prefer something like DES to Proin). I have prescribed hundreds of other medications to dogs and cats, all which have potential side effects, but all which the risk (usually very slight) was worth it as the problem I was treating was worse than the potential side effects in most cases (even cancer drugs, which are notoriously extremely toxic and often deadly if not used carefully... and sometimes deadly even at the proper doses, usually have less serious than the diseases I am trying to treat). 

Just wanted to provide a different point of view so the demonization of this drug does not continue without at least someone speaking up for it.


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## klraus

I will be up all night wondering if my dog is going to live after discovering I have been poisoning her with Proin for several weeks. We finally narrowed it down to Proin after seeing her reaction to it tonight on an empty stomach. She is a 12 year old Chow with incontinence. The Vet originally put her on DES but she was still incontinent so she said, "There's also a supplement that she can take." She gave us no literature or stated any warnings. Since beginning her on this poison she has become increasingly agitated like there is a thunderstorm 24 hours a day and she is chewing holes in herself. She hasn't been eating and falls down sometimes. She has had bloody diarrhea twice; the last time was really, really bad. She pants constantly, drinks constantly and makes a motion like there is a terrible taste in her mouth that she can't get rid of. The Vet ran tests and said there is nothing wrong showing in her lab tests. Right now she is looking at me like she is trying to stay alive, her heart is racing, and she is hyperventilating. I'm giving her water and trying to keep her cool and calm. 

I'm going to have some choice words for my "Vet" tomorrow before I find a new one. Hopefully, the new Vet won't be like the above poster who thinks it OK to kill your dog because she/he's been doing it for 20 years.

PROIN IS POISON.


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## Tzumommy

Toxic this stuff is toxic! My moms dead dog a week later! No other health issues… was checked for everything… made him pant, and he never did that. He couldn’t move… then collapsed in the kitchen dead… this was the only new in his life and he’s gone now.. From this medicine…think twice!!!


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## Tzumommy

klraus said:


> I will be up all night wondering if my dog is going to live after discovering I have been poisoning her with Proin for several weeks. We finally narrowed it down to Proin after seeing her reaction to it tonight on an empty stomach. She is a 12 year old Chow with incontinence. The Vet originally put her on DES but she was still incontinent so she said, "There's also a supplement that she can take." She gave us no literature or stated any warnings. Since beginning her on this poison she has become increasingly agitated like there is a thunderstorm 24 hours a day and she is chewing holes in herself. She hasn't been eating and falls down sometimes. She has had bloody diarrhea twice; the last time was really, really bad. She pants constantly, drinks constantly and makes a motion like there is a terrible taste in her mouth that she can't get rid of. The Vet ran tests and said there is nothing wrong showing in her lab tests. Right now she is looking at me like she is trying to stay alive, her heart is racing, and she is hyperventilating. I'm giving her water and trying to keep her cool and calm.
> 
> I'm going to have some choice words for my "Vet" tomorrow before I find a new one. Hopefully, the new Vet won't be like the above poster who thinks it OK to kill your dog because she/he's been doing it for 20 years.
> 
> PROIN IS POISON.


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## Tzumommy

It’s toxic like antifreeze in a pill…


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## LittleFr0g

This thread is 5 years old. Please start your own thread or join an active one


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