# Making a New dog breed.....Please no bashing



## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

HI i am interested in creating a new dog breed and im wondering if any of you guys have the same desire. i know this is a touchy subject for alot of you guys and im not trying to step on anyones toes or trying to start and arguement with anyone. if anyone else has wondered about this or has a desire pm me. the purpose of this dog would be the ultimate gaurd dog/nanny dog i know alot of you guys are thinking great another dumb person trying to make mutts. im really not trying to make any mutts. the ideal starting stock would be a co for the gaurding instinct and the newfoundland for the gentleness and the nanny-ness. im not trying to create a designer dog or anything and i understand that this will take decades to do. and i also understand that it takes alot of money which isnt a problem since i own a couple businesses. also i know that i need to do alot of research with is why i wont be attempting this for years to come. please like i said no bashing critisizm is welcome ideas are also welcome but please no arguements for petes sake


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't think you get to tell people how to respond, And likely you'll get some answers you won't like. That's life on an internet forum. Thing is, when you breed two breeds together with VERY different characteristics, you don't get something in the middle, You get some characteristics from column A and some from column B. And some of the mixtures might be dangerous. Particularly with selecting for such specific behaviors, do you just put them out with children and see which ones work? Do you put down the ones who are too protective? Or not protective enough? Quite honestly, people shouldn't be trusting the care of their children to the family pet, or trusting that pet to know the best way to protect the children. Especially with very large dogs, and with CO included, this could create a lawsuit worthy situation. Telling people that the dog they buy will be a "nanny" creates unreasonable expectations, and putting the dog in situations they may not be prepared for.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> I don't think you get to tell people how to respond, And likely you'll get some answers you won't like. That's life on an internet forum. Thing is, when you breed two breeds together with VERY different characteristics, you don't get something in the middle, You get some characteristics from column A and some from column B. And some of the mixtures might be dangerous. Particularly with selecting for such specific behaviors, do you just put them out with children and see which ones work? Do you put down the ones who are too protective? Or not protective enough? Quite honestly, people shouldn't be trusting the care of their children to the family pet, or trusting that pet to know the best way to protect the children. Especially with very large dogs, and with CO included, this could create a lawsuit worth situation. Telling people that the dog they buy will be a "nanny" creates unreasonable expectations, and putting the dog in situations they may not be prepared for.


im not telling people how to reply. im just asking them to not be so nasty with there response seeing as this is a touchy subject. im just looking for some feedback on it. some tips, some do's and dont's things to stay away from. like i said i know this is a very touchy subject and im not trying to start an arguement. i understand that people shouldnt be trusting there pet to that degree but for some people like me and my dad and my whole family for that matter. we dont believe in keeping guns incase the kids find it and what not. our way of thinking is we get a dog and hopefully deter would be robbers from trying to break in. when you look at it like that at least in my eyes it makes sense


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

We already have it just like you said...the Newfoundland. It should have an instinct to guard as it goes along with the "nanniness". Train them to guard if you wanted, there's lots of personal protection trainers. 

Problem solved.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

And what's a co? Probably just a dumb moment on my side.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

boxerlover876 said:


> We already have it just like you said...the Newfoundland. It should have an instinct to guard as it goes along with the "nanniness". Train them to guard if you wanted, there's lots of personal protection trainers.
> 
> Problem solved.


Thats the same thing I was thinking.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

boxerlover876 said:


> We already have it just like you said...the Newfoundland. It should have an instinct to guard as it goes along with the "nanniness". Train them to guard if you wanted, there's lots of personal protection trainers.
> 
> Problem solved.


yes but some people cant handle big dog breeds. and personal protection trainers can cost up to 25,000$ or at least the ones that ive seen advertised, and i doubt the general public has that much money laying around to spend on dog training. 

a co is a caucasian ovcharka or caucasian shepherd or mountain dog whatever you want to call it. its a very beautiful dog google it. it looks like a bear crossed with a lion


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

PatchworkRobot said:


> Thats the same thing I was thinking.


very nice doberman on your avatar


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

PatchworkRobot said:


> Thats the same thing I was thinking.


Exactly. 

Not top mention genetics is freaky, weird, and complicated. It's not something you can just mess around with. Things mutate and create so many problems sometimes, not too mention not everything will breed true. You could create an absolute monster with crazy health, behavior, mental, physical, etc. problems. Leave breeding to the pros; especially with creating new breeds. And no, I do not count myself as a pro.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> im not telling people how to reply. im just asking them to not be so nasty with there response seeing as this is a touchy subject. im just looking for some feedback on it. some tips, some do's and dont's things to stay away from. like i said i know this is a very touchy subject and im not trying to start an arguement. i understand that people shouldnt be trusting there pet to that degree but for some people like me and my dad and my whole family for that matter. we dont believe in keeping guns incase the kids find it and what not. our way of thinking is we get a dog and hopefully deter would be robbers from trying to break in. when you look at it like that at least in my eyes it makes sense


And when you've got a dog (particularly a big dog) that barks that IS a deterrant. Of course, if you have a really dedicated home invader, he'll just shoot your dog and come in anyway.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

My instinct is to say DONT DO IT!!! But in my experience people will do what they want regardless of internet advice. I'll just say this... dont get into this lightly. Do you have prior experience breeding dogs? Have you ever shown dogs before? Whelped them and raised puppies? Before creating a new breed you need to be extremely familiar with how an established breed was created and is bred nowadays. Find a reputable breeder and take a look at what really goes into the practice, I think you will be surprised by the investment, emotional and financial that these people put into their dogs. Read everything you can get your hands on, about breeding in general and the breeds you are considering specifically. Make sure to look specifically at the dangers of improper or uneducated breeding, you could end up with very sick pups or a safety liability, especially with a breed like the CO. I worry that you're expectations are unrealistic, mixing aggressive/guarding qualities with an affinity for children could be disastrous, what if one of the dogs you create turns that aggressive nature towards a child? What if it decides it needs to guard a child from its parent? I'm not bashing here and I'm not necessarily against the creation of new breeds, but I am against it being done irresponsibly. Research and prepare for this the way you would for a business, in my opinion the stakes here are even higher because these are living beings and people's safety is at stake. I'm glad to hear you're going to wait to start this project, its a massive undertaking.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Just looking at pictures of the CO I can already see health problems that would be created...

And a CO is just as big. Not too mention their temperament can be unstable. I would never mix those two. Plus, I highly doubt you'll be able to get good stock from a responsible breeder if they know you're going to cross those two, it'd be a mess.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> yes *but some people cant handle big dog breeds*. and personal protection trainers can cost up to 25,000$ or at least the ones that ive seen advertised, and i doubt the general public has that much money laying around to spend on dog training.


Um, how big do you think COs are? 

Trying to make a "nanny dog" out of a breed made for human aggression sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. And, already touched on, but creating a new breed makes a lot of "in-between" dogs, that can't be sold as the breed. And not many people want big hairy mutts. What will you do with them? Just kill them? Place them in unsuitable homes (where they'll likely end up killed and maybe take someone with them)?


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

aiw said:


> My instinct is to say DONT DO IT!!! But in my experience people will do what they want regardless of internet advice. I'll just say this... dont get into this lightly. Do you have prior experience breeding dogs? Have you ever shown dogs before? Whelped them and raised puppies? Before creating a new breed you need to be extremely familiar with how an established breed was created and is bred nowadays. Find a reputable breeder and take a look at what really goes into the practice, I think you will be surprised by the investment, emotional and financial that these people put into their dogs. Read everything you can get your hands on, about breeding in general and the breeds you are considering specifically. Make sure to look specifically at the dangers of improper or uneducated breeding, you could end up with very sick pups or a safety liability, especially with a breed like the CO. I worry that you're expectations are unrealistic, mixing aggressive/guarding qualities with an affinity for children could be disastrous, what if one of the dogs you create turns that aggressive nature towards a child? What if it decides it needs to guard a child from its parent? I'm not bashing here and I'm not necessarily against the creation of new breeds, but I am against it being done irresponsibly. Research and prepare for this the way you would for a business, in my opinion the stakes here are even higher because these are living beings and people's safety is at stake. I'm glad to hear you're going to wait to start this project, its a massive undertaking.


i have experience breeding dogs ive bred dogs from english bull dogs, ive bred newfoundlands with my dad and all sorts of other dogs up to neo mastiffs and french mastiffs. i dont plan on doing it irresponsibly i plan on taking my time and actually know exactly what i want. right now im just throwing ideas. like pretty much brainstorming. i just want other people opinions on this. ive learned the hard way to not just jump into something that its good to get others opinions about things. 
show dog no ive never bred them before. i really appreciate your answer on this. very informative.


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## Nev Allen (Feb 17, 2010)

J_Hulk, Your thinking is outside the box. No doubt about it. There are absolutely tons of breeds out there that will act as a detterent to a would be criminal and come home and lick the kids to death.

My border collie used to excell at attack work and regularly beat Rotties, GSD and Dobs in competition. If you came within 10 feet of my young kids without permission, you were on dangerous turf. My daghter however was able to trip all over her, and rough house and pull ears, all without so much as a lip twitch.

It is all in the training buddy. Select any breed you like, even a chihuahua, and train it properly and thoroughly and it will do what you want.

However, at the end of the day, all it takes is either a bitch in season or a juicey T Bone steak and your guard dog will become a puppy.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Um, how big do you think COs are?
> 
> Trying to make a "nanny dog" out of a breed made for human aggression sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. And, already touched on, but creating a new breed makes a lot of "in-between" dogs, that can't be sold as the breed. And not many people want big hairy mutts. What will you do with them? Just kill them? Place them in unsuitable homes (where they'll likely end up killed and maybe take someone with them)?


the ones ive researched about get range from 26-31.5 inches at the withers and range from 130-180 lbs thats not the standard but the general range for them


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> i have experience breeding dogs ive bred dogs from english bull dogs, ive bred newfoundlands with my dad and all sorts of other dogs up to neo mastiffs and french mastiffs. i dont plan on doing it irresponsibly i plan on taking my time and actually know exactly what i want. right now im just throwing ideas. like pretty much brainstorming. i just want other people opinions on this. ive learned the hard way to not just jump into something that its good to get others opinions about things.
> show dog no ive never bred them before. i really appreciate your answer on this. very informative.


I think the real question is have you bred responsibly? You know, health tests, temperament tests, meeting the standard, etc. I'm guessing you haven't. Those breeds are all over the place and you haven't shown. And it interests me you say French Mastiff versus Dogue De Bordeaux.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> the ones ive researched about get range from 26-31.5 inches at the withers and range from 130-180 lbs thats not the standard but the general range for them


 Yeah, and you said people can't handle big dogs? That's pretty darn big.

And you didn't answer about what you're going to do with the in-between dogs or how you plan to get a breed known for HA not to eat children.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Uh,.... Caucasian Ovcharkas are the same size as Newfoundlands.. only Newfies are fluffier.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

J_hulk said:


> very nice doberman on your avatar


Thank you! He's the best and I"m going to use him as an example as I touch on your next post.




J_hulk said:


> the ones ive researched about get range from 26-31.5 inches at the withers and range from 130-180 lbs thats not the standard but the general range for them


The top of standard for a doberman is 28inches at the shoulders and about 96lb. While they are technically a "medium"-sized breed the general public things that they're large dogs. I agree with you completely when you say that "some people cannot handle big dogs" and, if that's the case, why would you put a CO in the mix? Compared to a Doberman (often considered to be a big dog by the general public), the CO is super huge.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

boxerlover876 said:


> I think the real question is have you bred responsibly? You know, health tests, temperament tests, meeting the standard, etc. I'm guessing you haven't. Those breeds are all over the place and you haven't shown. And it interests me you say French Mastiff versus Dogue De Bordeaux.


yes i have bred responsibly all my dogs were healthy had vet checks papers everything the only ones that werent standard were my bulldogs because they were 1 inch shorter than the standard. just because i say french mastiff? that doesnt make sense. i also called a caucasian shepherd a co. thats like me saying hmm it interests me that you dont know what a co is.



Willowy said:


> Yeah, and you said people can't handle big dogs? That's pretty darn big.
> 
> And you didn't answer about what you're going to do with the in-between dogs or how you plan to get a breed known for HA not to eat children.


well like i said im just brainstorming right now. nothing is set in stone.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Vet checks and papers do not make a responsible breeder. What about OFA, CERF, etc.?


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

PatchworkRobot said:


> Thank you! He's the best and I"m going to use him as an example as I touch on your next post.
> 
> 
> 
> The top of standard for a doberman is 28inches at the shoulders and about 96lb. While they are technically a "medium"-sized breed the general public things that they're large dogs. I agree with you completely when you say that "some people cannot handle big dogs" and, if that's the case, why would you put a CO in the mix? Compared to a Doberman (often considered to be a big dog by the general public), the CO is super huge.


well im just saying that ideally that would be my goal weather it happens or not is another story


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

actually some new founlands get bigger than co's.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Vet checks and papers do not make a responsible breeder. What about OFA, CERF, etc.?


Thank you, this is just about what I was going to say.

And the French Mastiff just interested me, that's all.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

sorry guys if im not getting to everyones questions im going back and forth between forums


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

J_hulk said:


> im not telling people how to reply. im just asking them to not be so nasty with there response seeing as this is a touchy subject.


See, that's the job of the mods and ONLY the mods.

That said, the mix you're talking about is potentially dangerous. the dog would be no smaller or easier to handle, as another poster said, it's NOT a dogs job to be a nanny, if you want nanny a human should be hired. As far as a dog that can be a good gaurdian and great with family, there are several breeds that already fit that bill in MANY size ranges, from Dobermans (I have a working line and she's every bit of that) and GSD's to Molossor breeds such as the Rottweiler, Mastiff and Leonberger.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> yes but some people cant handle big dog breeds. and personal protection trainers can cost up to 25,000$ or at least the ones that ive seen advertised, and i doubt the general public has that much money laying around to spend on dog training.
> 
> a co is a caucasian ovcharka or caucasian shepherd or mountain dog whatever you want to call it. its a very beautiful dog google it. it looks like a bear crossed with a lion


So, if people can't handle big dog breeds, I don't get a Newf x CO cross. That's going to produce very large dogs


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It just doesn't sound like you've thought this through. You want to take a guard breed known to be human aggressive and mix it with a water rescue breed known to be good with kids. You don't know what this breed mix will result in, or what you'll do with the resulting mixes. You think people can't handle big dogs but this breed mix will likely be 150 pounds plus. The mixes will be large dark hairy mutts, which are usually extremely hard to sell/place. You aren't familiar with responsible breeding practices. I dunno, just seems like a bad idea all around.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

So, you're wanting to create a pit bull? 
Because, when trained properly, well socialized, etc. they're wonderful around children, and often are willing to protect their family, also not too large and there's not all that hair to deal with.
Or perhaps you mean to create a Rottweiler? 
Even possibly a Doberman. Most of the Dobes and Rotties I know are great big teddy bears with their family, but if someone dared to hurt them, likely they would step in and do something about it.
Even my Border Collie X Pit mix is a great big ball of loving fluff, but if someone dared to hurt his family or anyone else he cared about, he would likely maul them. He has stepped in before in situations where he obviously felt I was in danger -and I was deeply inclined to agree with him. 

There are many breeds out there, large and small, who are gentle and kind with their families but protective over them and their property. 
With as many dogs that die in shelters every single day and are bred and sold irresponsibly, I personally see no need in anyone trying to create a new breed. It takes a lot of expertise on the subject, and many years. There's a lot of trial and error and lot of potentially dangerous dogs that are going to be bred, and there's really no need for it.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

cshellenberger said:


> See, that's the job of the mods and ONLY the mods.
> 
> That said, the mix you're talking about is potentially dangerous. the dog would be no smaller or easier to handle, as another poster said, it's NOT a dogs job to be a nanny, if you want nanny a human should be hired. As far as a dog that can be a good gaurdian and great with family, there are several breeds that already fit that bill in MANY size ranges, from Dobermans (I have a working line and she's every bit of that) and GSD's to Molossor breeds such as the Rottweiler, Mastiff and Leonberger.


yea but like the abpt and most of the breeds you listed they arent really accepted by the general public. like mine i have 2 pitbull x mastiff puppies that i rescued they had mange (scabies type) and the owners had been feeding the pups adult dog food since they were born. i got them at 6 weeks. well now they are 5 months old and i take them every where i go. i take them to work with me every day and i own an auto shop and probably about 70% of the time i get people saying rude comment like wow they look like little killers or man eaters. you better start chaining them up before they get vicious type of comments from people. my goal would be to create a dog that pretty much isnt at the receiving end of hate crimes pretty much. which im pretty sure as a doberman pinscher owner you have probably had some


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

J_hulk said:


> yes i have bred responsibly all my dogs were healthy had vet checks papers everything the only ones that werent standard were my bulldogs because they were 1 inch shorter than the standard.


Sorry, but health checks does NOT mean you're breeding responsibly. You need health TESTING and that's a whole different catagory, any dogs you use to develop a new breed will needto be cleared via DNA, x ray and otehr testing to be sure they have no hereditary issues including Hip Dysplacia, Progressive retinal Atrophy, vonWillibrands, Elbow dysplacia, Patellar Luxation, eye issues (cleared through CERF) and any other issues that may be more breed specific as well as tested after each breeding for Brucellosis and Canine herpes virus. If you're only doing health checks, you're contributing to the problems and most here would consider you a Back Yard breeder.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If thise breed mix is supposed to have a guarding instinct, it will eventually get a reputation, too. That's human nature. You can't just go around making new breeds every time someone discriminates against your favorite breed.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Willowy said:


> It just doesn't sound like you've thought this through. You want to take a guard breed known to be human aggressive and mix it with a water rescue breed known to be good with kids. You don't know what this breed mix will result in, or what you'll do with the resulting mixes. You think people can't handle big dogs but this breed mix will likely be 150 pounds plus. The mixes will be large dark hairy mutts, which are usually extremely hard to sell/place. You aren't familiar with responsible breeding practices. I dunno, just seems like a bad idea all around.


 isnt that how dogs were bred in the first place? by taking desirable traits from different dogs to create one with both? well thats like saying that apbt or gsd for that matter are know to be human aggressive. co's are guard dogs why do you think they are human aggressive because they are good at what they do? a guard dog is ment to gaurd something from everything. if you read up on them which im pretty sure you havent you would know that they really arent what you call "human aggressive" they are just guard dogs.



Willowy said:


> If thise breed mix is supposed to have a guarding instinct, it will eventually get a reputation, too. That's human nature.


exactly my point. with the whole human aggression. all it is, is a reputation


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The CO is bred to be a guard dog in parts of the world where you can't just call the cops and have them come save you. They kill bears, wolves, and intruders. It's not a breed the average suburban American should own. They're very intense.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Almost any good guard dog or breed is HA at first. Socializing and training that out of them is why alleviates it. 

After researching them a bit I've also found that they aren't really a cemented breed yet. There are many types to them and it's not a united or always pure breed.


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## Mommy2many (Jul 27, 2012)

This thread rubs me the wrong way!

Guard- A person who keeps watch, esp. a soldier or other person formally assigned to protect a person or to control access to a place.

Nanny-A person, typically a woman, employed to care for a child in its own home.

Why create a dog when you have people already here to do it? All it will do is cause trouble, more dogs in this world, who would either be put down, abused, killed, ect.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Willowy said:


> The CO is bred to be a guard dog in parts of the world where you can't just call the cops and have them come save you. They kill bears, wolves, and intruders. It's not a breed the average suburban American should own. They're very intense.


Thank you exactly. Any good, true working dog is going to be intense and have drive through the roof. Duke has drive, but not crazy drive and he's almost taken someone down when I was joking. Any working line and bred dog is no joke, they can kill if needed and know how to do it.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Mommy2many said:


> This thread rubs me the wrong way!
> 
> Guard- A person who keeps watch, esp. a soldier or other person formally assigned to protect a person or to control access to a place.
> 
> ...


well would you hire a soldier or security gaurd to watch over your house while you sleep? have complete access to you and your children you dont know what kind of people they are. and at the same time you have him hired would you hire a nanny? who can also protect you? (thinking of that movie the pacifier now lol) and pay for there salaries ever month for the next 10-12 years then get new ones? why hire 2 different people when you can have that in one loving pet?


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

boxerlover876 said:


> Almost any good guard dog or breed is HA at first. Socializing and training that out of them is why alleviates it.
> 
> After researching them a bit I've also found that they aren't really a cemented breed yet. There are many types to them and it's not a united or always pure breed.


well of course the dog would need to be refined to make it exactly what i need it to be. but like i said before this is just an idea. ive bred dogs and ive always thought about this. i just wanted others opinions about this. in time more dog breeds will pop up no matter if i do it or not someone will. and because no one supports or helps them its not going to be a sound dog. its gonna be full of problems that will cause a lot of harm.but i guess thats just the way people are. they arent open to change but like i said and you guys know it, it will be done by someone and if no one help them or steers them in the right direction on what to do and what not to do it will be bad.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You'll be arrested if you leave your young child alone with nobody but a dog around. So you'd still need to hire a nanny. Your logic is odd, and I don't think you understand how genetics work.

Have you determined there to be a demand for this type of dog? Most of the new breeds are companion-type dogs, because most modern people don't want a dog that kills intruders, for legal reasons and all.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

J_hulk said:


> well would you hire a soldier or security gaurd to watch over your house while you sleep? have complete access to you and your children you dont know what kind of people they are. and at the same time you have him hired would you hire a nanny? who can also protect you? (thinking of that movie the pacifier now lol) and pay for there salaries ever month for the next 10-12 years then get new ones? why hire 2 different people when you can have that in one loving pet?


Why would you leave an aggressive dog alone with children?
No logic in this.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Willowy said:


> You'll be arrested if you leave your young child alone with nobody but a dog around. So you'd still need to hire a nanny. Your logic is odd, and I don't think you understand how genetics work.
> 
> Have you determined there to be a demand for this type of dog? Most of the new breeds are companion-type dogs, because most modern people don't want a dog that kills intruders, for legal reasons and all.


well im not a geneticist by any means so i have basic knowledge about genetics. and i doubt a geneticist would waste time on dogs. ive had this exact subject come up before. and my arguement was that most people that own dogs dont buy them for what they were bred for. i doubt people that buy bulldogs go bull baiting every weekend. they usually buy them for the look or because there energy level matches the dogs. or like you said a companion. which is why i said that then instead of breeding for a purpose then why not looks or athleticism?


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> Why would you leave an aggressive dog alone with children?
> No logic in this.


well the person said that you can hire a nanny or a security guard. would you leave your kids alone with them? 
theres really no logic in that statement either. at least not to me cause i dont trust anyone with my kids


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OK, so why do you think a CO/Newfie cross would have the looks people want? Or match their activity level? As I said, large dark hairy dogs are not really in demand. And a dog with that kind of intensity wouldn't match very many people's activity levels! 

For what purpose would you be creating this new breed? Why a mix of those breeds? What exactly are you going for here?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

J_hulk said:


> well the person said that you can hire a nanny or a security guard. would you leave your kids alone with them?
> theres really no logic in that statement either. at least not to me cause i dont trust anyone with my kids


 So you'd trust a dog. . .with teeth, and animal instincts, and no opposable thumbs, to watch your kids instead? Yikes.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Willowy said:


> OK, so why do you think a CO/Newfie cross would have the looks people want? Or match their activity level? As I said, large dark hairy dogs are not really in demand. And a dog with that kind of intensity wouldn't match very many people's activity levels!
> 
> For what purpose would you be creating this new breed? Why a mix of those breeds? What exactly are you going for here?


im not saying that those dogs will be used sorry if i made it out that way. i meant it as the guarding instinct of the co and the nanny instinct of the nfl would be ideal traits for the dog. i dont mean put those dogs and thats it i just mean that those traits i would like. it would be good in a medium sized dog.

ok let me explain the ideal traits for the dog altogether. it would have the guarding instinct of the co. the nanny instinct of the nfl, the athleticism of the greyhound and the intelligence of the doberman. as for the looks idk but that would be the goal. not for fighting or anything but for a pretty much general all around purpose dog. 

does it make a little more sense? how i would get that idk thats why im asking


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

i wouldnt leave my dog alone with my kids anyways. actually i dont leave my kids alone at all.

so you would rather trust someone who really doesnt care for your kids that just wants the money rather than a dog who would have the devotion to give its life to protect your kid?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think every decent breeder is trying for that in their breed. But no living being is perfect, and I don't think it's possible or everybody would be doing it already. Some traits work against each other and can't both be present in the same dog.

It's a fine goal for any breeder to make a good all-around dog, but there are limits to what's possible.


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## J_hulk (Jul 29, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I think every decent breeder is trying for that in their breed. But no living being is perfect, and I don't think it's possible or everybody would be doing it already. Some traits work against each other and can't both be present in the same dog.
> 
> It's a fine goal for any breeder to make a good all-around dog, but there are limits to what's possible.


see so what im thinking isnt a bad thing necessarily. i have good intentions which is why im asking for the do's and dont's of making a new breed. breeding a certain line is something totally different than creating a whole new breed.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Why make a new breed then? What will this new breed offer tthat an existing breed doesn't? 

Creating a new breed takes a LOT of generations, resulting in a lot of mutts, who need to find homes (which isn't easy), and take homes away from other mutts. A lot of wasted life in the process.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

First, read. Go to the library and take out every book on responsible breeding and Newfoundlands and Ovcharkas in general. Then get on the internet and look up Backyard Breeders, to get a sense of what bad breeding looks like and the problems it creates. Also, make sure you understand genetic diversity, common genetic defects and the dangers of having too limited a gene pool. People here have listed health concerns and you need to be aware of tests for these problems and how much they cost. Go to breeders of Newfoundlands and Ovcharkas, look at their facilities and ask as many questions as possible. They may try to talk you out of it like people here are. Listen to them, they have a lot of experience and know what they're talking about. Do you have experience with COs or Newfoundlands? You need to know both breeds inside and out, volunteer at a rescue to get acquainted with many animals of both breeds, you need to know more than just a few to get a real sense of their characters. It will also give you an idea of the kind of home that is suited to each and you can figure out if there really will be homes for these possible puppies. Finally be prepared for a huge investment. Infrastructure, vet bills, health testing (so much more than just a vet visit), feed and care for the animals. You're probably looking at tens of thousands to do this properly. Time is another factor, this is not the kind of thing you can do while juggling several businesses. Any responsible breeder will take back their pups at any point in their lives, would you be prepared to do the same? What if that pup grew up to be aggressive because of his breeding, would you still care for him? I'm sure an actual breeder will have a list much longer than this of things they did to prepare before they began breeding. For many people its their life's work. I know very little of the huge effort that goes into creating a healthy, stable dog... that why I don't breed, its why most people shouldn't.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Just for conversation sake, if OP was able to do the impossible it would not help him much as the years needed would render OP to be in his grave 20 yrs before the impossible feat was accomplished. But maybe his great, great grandkids would have one of the miracle bred dogs. 

I realize I have now entered facetious land but with this thread I had no choice..


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## houndies (Feb 2, 2012)

LOL that's not facetious just factual!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> well would you hire a soldier or security gaurd to watch over your house while you sleep? have complete access to you and your children you dont know what kind of people they are. and at the same time you have him hired would you hire a nanny? who can also protect you? (thinking of that movie the pacifier now lol) and pay for there salaries ever month for the next 10-12 years then get new ones? why hire 2 different people when you can have that in one loving pet?


In all respect ... My Doberman did all those things without being crossed with any other dog.  He would put himself between an intruder and myself and my Children. He proved it.

I now have someone's experiment that I rescued ... a Doberman/Rottweiler. She may be frightened of thunderstorms ... but I guarantee that if anyone were to do me harm ... they would be missing some limbs.

There are enough mix breeds to go around already who can do the guarding job you are looking for by creating yet another experiment gone wrong IMHO ... and many of them dying in shelters because not everyone can handle such animals and they certainly are not going to use them for a babysitter.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

When people start talking CO's and guardian breeds, I realize how much I miss Brad A.


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## Henryr10 (Jun 10, 2012)

We raised Collie Dogs, Smooth and Rough Coat, thru two boys from age 5 thru to adulthood.
Nieces, Nephews, Grand Nieces and Nephews to adulthood.
Collies fit all your needed criteria already. Great Nannies, Fierce Protectors, Large enough for a fear factor, Easy to handle and train.

Question.
Are you prepared to cull out the pups that don't fit the bill?
Back in the day I worked w/ a Borzoi Breeder.......BEFORE they let Family Quality pups be sold........ probably 1/2 the pups were killed right after birth.
What are you going to do w/ the hundreds of rejects you will incur?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

J_hulk said:


> well would you hire a soldier or security gaurd to watch over your house while you sleep? have complete access to you and your children you dont know what kind of people they are. and at the same time you have him hired would you hire a nanny? who can also protect you? (thinking of that movie the pacifier now lol) and pay for there salaries ever month for the next 10-12 years then get new ones? why hire 2 different people when you can have that in one loving pet?


No, I have an alarm system and I have several guns as well as a baseball bat or two. Yes, my dogs are a deterrent, but it's MY job (and my husbands) to protect our home and family. You're talking about hte current working breeds having a bad reputation, the mix you're using (and the future breed) could WELL end up with the SAME bad rap if they gain popularity and fall into the hands of irresponsible people, even MORE so because of being a giant breed (and both the breeds you're talking about using are GIANT breeds).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I know nothing about the CO breed (not gonna attempt spelling) except what I have read which means to me I know very little. 

I've been fortunate to have trained a couple Newfies, both of them sweethearts and why anybody would want to fix something that's not broken or attempt to improve it is beyond me.

Also have had some protection alligators that were between 75 and 95 lbs, assorted breeds and did not need a 150 lb dog when a 75 lb dog would get the job done.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> im not saying that those dogs will be used sorry if i made it out that way. i meant it as the guarding instinct of the co and the nanny instinct of the nfl would be ideal traits for the dog. i dont mean put those dogs and thats it i just mean that those traits i would like. it would be good in a medium sized dog.
> 
> ok let me explain the ideal traits for the dog altogether. it would have the guarding instinct of the co. the nanny instinct of the nfl, the athleticism of the greyhound and the intelligence of the doberman. as for the looks idk but that would be the goal. not for fighting or anything but for a pretty much general all around purpose dog.
> 
> does it make a little more sense? how i would get that idk thats why im asking


The problem is that that is any good dog. My boy is caring, worried, and gentle when he sees that I'm hurt. He is an amazing guarder and always can tell when something is not right. And yes, he would take you down to protect me. And he is intelligent, too intelligent sometimes. He can figure out things quite quickly and learns commands in a few days. 

I think any German working or herding breed is what you are looking for. Boxers, Dobes, Rotts, German Shepherds, etc. (the Newfie) They all have that natural instinct to guard and protect, but still be caring and gentle. 

Honestly, I think the dog you're trying to breed would be a Boxer, the all around German working dog, or the Dobe, another German dog.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> the only ones that werent standard were my bulldogs because they were 1 inch shorter than the standard.


Obviously you know nothing of the bulldog (the breed's name is just Bulldog btw) standard as there is NO height standard, only weight.

I agree with the others, this is a lawsuit in the waiting. There is a difference between regular vet checks, and genetic health tests that only specialists can do, the later is the one necessary for breeding. 

Note: I am not saying you should breed, exactly the opposite, I think you need to rethink this. 

But Newfoundlands should be tested for: Hip Dysplasia (OFA or Pennhip), Cystinuria, Ichthyosis, Elbow Dysplasia, Heart Echo OFA (prone to sub aortic stenosis, Patent Ductus Arteriosus, pulmonic stenois, cardiomyopathy), Degenerative Myelopathy, Von Willebrand's Disease, thyroid, 

Other health issues in newfs: Geriatric Onset Laryngeal Paralysis Polyneuropathy, Cancer (Lymphoma, osteosarcoma), Ectopic Ureters, Dermoid cysts, acute moist dermatitis, bloat, IBS, Megaesophagus, Addison's and Cushing's (can't remember if there is tests for these for newfs), Color dilution alopecia, etc

http://www.ncanewfs.org/health/genetichealth.html (really you should take a look at this)

And as for CO's

Hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, eye issues, it's a hardy breed but it is not without some health issues.


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## Luann Combs (Jul 20, 2012)

Interesting question. The responders have all raised good questions and concerns. From the get go, you express concern for not being bashed. Please don't take people's honest concerns for bashing. Your post says that you have done quite a lot of dog breeding. I am wondering for myself, where are all of those dogs now? What became of them? What significant traits did they carry on in their line? I am an owner of two mutts. One is a half and half backyard breeder product that my husband adopted long before we met, and the other is an abandoned lab/??. Both have fabulous qualities, but they are spayed and I would never think of breeding them because if feel that dog breeding is serious business and only the best dogs with the best traits should be bred. Accidents happen and many of us are proud to have them as family members. I think about all the puppies that would be made in the process of your grand scheme to create the perfect nanny dog. What will become of them? Just thoughts to ponder. I am not bashing your enthusiasm or trying to take the wind out of your sails. This is coming from a person who picks up the leftovers of the irresponsible people (and I am not saying you are one). Do have a wonderful day and relax a little.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> im not saying that those dogs will be used sorry if i made it out that way. i meant it as the guarding instinct of the co and the nanny instinct of the nfl would be ideal traits for the dog. i dont mean put those dogs and thats it i just mean that those traits i would like. it would be good in a medium sized dog.
> 
> ok let me explain the ideal traits for the dog altogether. it would have the guarding instinct of the co. the nanny instinct of the nfl, the athleticism of the greyhound and the intelligence of the doberman. as for the looks idk but that would be the goal. not for fighting or anything but for a pretty much general all around purpose dog.
> 
> does it make a little more sense? how i would get that idk thats why im asking


 This already exists. It's called a Belgian malinois. Except its more protective, better devotion, more athletic, and smarter


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

juliemule said:


> This already exists. It's called a Belgian malinois. Except its more protective, better devotion, more athletic, and smarter


You stole what I was going to say!!!


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## ben00x (Jun 5, 2012)

I agree with most of what's been said in response to the OP. There are already plenty of dogs already that have the traits that you want, and they can become the best family dog and guardian with love and training. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Pitbulls, etc.. All loving, strong, protective, intelligent and athletic.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Really I'm not against improving breeds. If you have a breed that really could benefit by adding, then I wouldn't be against it. I am against just mixing dogs. I don't see what would be improving on the two breeds mentioned, but I don't know much about the two. Seems like plenty of breeds exist with what you are looking for. Crossing those two will definitely not produce the agility of a greyhound though.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> well im not a geneticist by any means so i have basic knowledge about genetics. and i doubt a geneticist would waste time on dogs. ive had this exact subject come up before. and my arguement was that most people that own dogs dont buy them for what they were bred for. i doubt people that buy bulldogs go bull baiting every weekend. they usually buy them for the look or because there energy level matches the dogs. or like you said a companion. which is why i said that then instead of breeding for a purpose then why not looks or athleticism?


Behavioral genetics are a lot more difficult than physical genetics. Bulldogs are bred for a specific appearance more than for a specific behavior. But for those breeds which are selected for specific behavior, it's not unheard of to see a dog bred for herding who's not interested in stock, or is lacking important instincts, or a dog bred for protection that doesn't have the nerve. And these are in established breeds, whose behavior has been tweeked over many generations of not just dogs, but humans. So, how many generations are you going to keep (not sell) to make sure your dogs are breeding true? How are you going to test the behavior? (Whose kids are you willing to sacrifice?) What are you going to do with the wash-outs? (which early-on will be many). At what age are you going to decide that adult behaviors are established and you can promote those characteristics. (I hope you don't really think you're going to be able to know that on the basis of 8-12 week old puppy behavior!) Or are you just going to promise something you can't know about the puppies to the new buyers and hope that pup's idea of protecting the family kid is not to maul the neighbor kid who was rough-housing with him? It's a nice idea, but a rather dangerous prospect to promise "nanny" dogs to people who are willing to hand off the care of their children to the family pet, because if they buy that, they're probably too lazy and ignorant to train.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Crossing those two will definitely not produce the agility of a greyhound though.


It won't, I guess maybe my plan of crossing a Black Bear and a Polar bear to produce a Panda Bear that was an improved swimmer while maintaining proper color, maybe not such a good idea.


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## racerocks (Jul 25, 2012)

If your looking for a dog that's as good with kids as the Nl or even better with them ,and has a great gaurdain instinct,you have described the ( dogue de bordeaux),exceptional with children, but on the other hand it is every bit the gaurdain. protective not aggressive.if your interested in more stamina or athleticism in the breed,breed for that in the breed.The dogue de bordeauxs huge shoulders and head are encouraged in breeding programs,lower to the ground 25 to 26" for a big male for the show ring(our bordeaux looks this way )our busy life style at the time didnt fit with a dog that had to be excerised and run 2 hours everyday .I noticed that you said your father owned them before?Were they good examples of their know trait behavior


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## racerocks (Jul 25, 2012)

The other breed that has the capibilities of a co but the loyalty to family of a NL,and has the athletism simalar to a greyhound is a turkish or kurdish Kangal,from speaking to owners of these dogs they are what you would call the nanny of whatever they consider part of the flock. In turkey kangals that grew to show any aggression towards children were never bred and from what ive heard killed. but I've also heard they consider you as more like the sheep they protect ,more cat like in their affection and independent. they would never turn against the children they protect but I wouldn't say that of new children coming on to the property. when it comes to mix dogs I'm not a purebred snob, some of the most beautiful dogs are mixed breed . Our other dog is 5 and a half pound pekingese pomeranian cross.i think there is definatley a more negative stigma if you say your trying to create a giant breed who is a gaurd dog and good with children because of the resonsiblity that takes on,as opposed to a breeding a new little lap dog.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> It won't, I guess maybe my plan of crossing a Black Bear and a Polar bear to produce a Panda Bear that was an improved swimmer while maintaining proper color, maybe not such a good idea.


Maybe you could cross a T-rex with a Brontosaurus to improve both agility and temperament?


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## racerocks (Jul 25, 2012)

And as was mentioned by some you would never leave a giant breed alone with very young children for extended periods of time even if they're the kindest most loving dog in the world . so when speaking nanny breed you'd be speaking of a dog left with children that are old enough to be by themselves.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

racerocks said:


> i think there is definatley a more negative stigma if you say your trying to create a giant breed who is a gaurd dog and good with children because of the resonsiblity that takes on,as opposed to a breeding a new little lap dog.


 I highly doubt you're going to find anyone on this forum who would jump up and say 'Yeah! Full support!' if this situation was reversed to be for creating a smaller dog. 

There are already many, many breeds out there to suit many, many needs. Creating a new one is dangerous, irresponsible, and unnecessary.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Maybe you could cross a T-rex with a Brontosaurus to improve both agility and temperament?


OK, but would it be cute and cuddly as a fast swimming Panda


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> Maybe you could cross a T-rex with a Brontosaurus to improve both agility and temperament?...
> OK, but would it be cute and cuddly as a fast swimming Panda


I want one!! But only if I can have it babysit my toddlers and eat the neighbours children...


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## Henryr10 (Jun 10, 2012)

aiw said:


> I want one!! But only if I can have it babysit my toddlers and eat the neighbours children...


Don't forget the backhoe for yard clean up!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Henryr10 said:


> Don't forget the backhoe for yard clean up!


Not necessary as it will be a genetically designed non-pooper, geeze don't you think us breeders know and plan for everything.


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## racerocks (Jul 25, 2012)

I will definatey agree with that


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## racerocks (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree with you,wasnt saying anyone would say its fine to create a lap breed ethier , seems you have to be very exact with what you say on a forum and explain everything in detail for some


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

juliemule said:


> This already exists. It's called a Belgian malinois. Except its more protective, better devotion, more athletic, and smarter


And a really poor choice for most average dog owners.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

J_hulk said:


> im really not trying to make any mutts.
> 
> i understand that this will take decades to do.


You seem to already realize that it would take decades to do...
but during the process you Will be creating many hundreds of mutts and genetic rejects (what will you do with all of them?)
and in the end you may never actually reach your goal of creating your Dream Dog.

Fortunatly there are already many purebred dogs ..and also mixed breeds available that fit the description .
Example:
I have a Lab/Chow mix I got from the shelter 15 years ago..She is a fantastic gaurd dog , a nanny and a great companion.
(I wish I could Clone her..)


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

HollowHeaven said:


> There are already many, many breeds out there to suit many, many needs. Creating a new one is dangerous, irresponsible, and unnecessary.


Inherently, I don't agree with this idea even slightly. People shouldn't *have to* settle for the breeds that currently exist if one doesn't meet a group of people's needs and desires. I think breeds should evolve as our lifestyles do, and if we want to preserve existing breeds in the process, the only thing we can do is start creating new ones. But that certainly doesn't mean someone inexperienced should be undertaking such a complicated, time consuming and in some ways dangerous venture. And of course the moral issue of creating generations of mutts that don't yet meet the goals for the breed should not be taken lightly.

But yeah, in this case I don't think the dog being described is needed or even a safe thing to intentionally create. No dog is capable of taking care of children, much less one that's supposed to be a guard dog, too. IMO that's really beyond the limitations of pretty much any non-human species.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Ditto! Roloni and I say: 'Yeah! Full support!' Except I want a Lab-GSD mix designer dog. My fluffy 65 lb dog is great with kids, scary to non-dog people (He doesn't know, they're just scared of his "play with me" bark). Plus he has scared away two Rottie brothers as well as a 125lb Pit... and both of these breeds never back down .... of course these family pets didn't know what to do when my dog ran directly at them (how rude!), barking "play with me" but not snarling  Perfect for what the OP wants.

Please consider the Tweedmouth method for creating the Golden Retriever for your baseline, adding modern methods, and get back with us in a few decades. [ http://www.rebelcreek.com/GoldenRetrieverHistory.html ] BTW, some of wvasko's suggested traits might be nice, too.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> Inherently, I don't agree with this idea even slightly. People shouldn't *have to* settle for the breeds that currently exist if one doesn't meet a group of people's needs and desires. I think breeds should evolve as our lifestyles do, and if we want to preserve existing breeds in the process, the only thing we can do is start creating new ones. But that certainly doesn't mean someone inexperienced should be undertaking such a complicated, time consuming and in some ways dangerous venture. And of course the moral issue of creating generations of mutts that don't yet meet the goals for the breed should not be taken lightly.
> 
> But yeah, in this case I don't think the dog being described is needed or even a safe thing to intentionally create. No dog is capable of taking care of children, much less one that's supposed to be a guard dog, too. IMO that's really beyond the limitations of pretty much any non-human species.


Pretty much my exact opinion.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> And a really poor choice for most average dog owners.


Yes average dog owners don't need a serious protection breed. So do you consider a CO a good choice for average dog owners lol?

When you combine the athleticism, brains, guarding tendencies, and strong handler/owner bonding you have a dog that isn't suited for the average dog owner.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> IMO that's really beyond the limitations of pretty much any non-human species.


A lotta humans cross breed and results can vary..


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

juliemule said:


> Yes average dog owners don't need a serious protection breed. So do you consider a CO a good choice for average dog owners lol?
> .


Whatever would make you ask that? (The answer is no, by the way. And I never indicated that I did.) I find that I seldom publically even sing the praises of my own breed to the public because they are smart, athletic, active and have strong guarding tendencies and strong handler-owner bonding. Even though they have a fairly high "fail" rate with average owners, I'd think they probably fare better than Malinois. Still, I am careful where I proclaim them to be the perfect dog.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

anyone can " mix " 2 breeds together and make up a name but to TRULY make a new dog breed is a very long hard process that takes $$$ and commitment. Its not a matter of I am going to mix this breed with this breed. It is not that simple. For one like it was mentioned above generally you don't get a perfect blend of dog in all the puppies. You pick a puppy you like for certain qualities and then mix it with another puppy you like with similar qualities. this is in very simple terms. the work involved in all of this is A LOT. so please read on!

First you can't breed a brother and Sister together obviously so you need to have 2 mating pairs. They should be screened for genetic disorders and personality issues and other health problems. The mating pairs have to be the proper age. females 2+ and males maybe a little younger but 2yrs old gives you a good idea of their general health and personality. also they usually cost big $$$ for these well bred dogs.

So you got this all settled so then you HOPE that they mate. and maybe they will. Now you got litters of puppies. And you hope some of them have what your looking for. and if they don't well you have to wait for the female to recover or get another female. once you produce 2 unrelated dogs that have the qualities you look for you can mate them together. and oh puppies! but then what? you would need to go through the process with a different family to get another unrelated dog so you can produce more puppies. If you only have 1 mating pair of this new breed you can only breed them so many times and not very often. So can you see the process now? and this is a scrunched down process. most dog breeds come from many many years of meticulous breeding and care. It is a huge commitment. Some people look far and wide for other breeders with a similar idea till they find a dog that they can also use in this process. 

it is not a matter of " this sounds fun lets make puppies!"

then take into account vet care , vaccinations and proper handling and care. Your in for a long road. and many people choose to create a dog breed for specific reasons. Like the creation of the American Bully which took around 10 years if I remember the history. They produced them because it makes the dogs not desired for fighting but appealing to the eye. There goal was to breed out the dog aggression issues common in most pit bulls. I'm sure they were hoping to make a dent in the misuse and abuse of pit bulls by changing their function. Even though these beautiful dogs look hardcore and strong they are not agile either which also makes them not desired for fighting. ( my poor Vader can barely reach his butt lol!) anyhow It might do you good to read about some dog breeds and why they were bred. it makes for a good read and you will also learn more about the process.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Abbylynn said:


> In all respect ... My Doberman did all those things without being crossed with any other dog.  He would put himself between an intruder and myself and my Children. He proved it.
> 
> I now have someone's experiment that I rescued ... a Doberman/Rottweiler. She may be frightened of thunderstorms ... but I guarantee that if anyone were to do me harm ... they would be missing some limbs.
> 
> There are enough mix breeds to go around already who can do the guarding job you are looking for by creating yet another experiment gone wrong IMHO ... and many of them dying in shelters because not everyone can handle such animals and they certainly are not going to use them for a babysitter.


yep, my cattle dogs would also defend me, my female would have put herself btw me & someone willing to harm me in a heartbeat & this isnt a breed that is 'bred' for protection persay.

its not the dogd breed (tho it does have a factor in it) its the personality that makes them a great defender or not.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

juliemule said:


> Crossing those two will definitely not produce the agility of a greyhound though.


 No, Herr Dobermann did that when he included the Greyhound in the creation of the Doberman.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> Inherently, I don't agree with this idea even slightly. People shouldn't *have to* settle for the breeds that currently exist if one doesn't meet a group of people's needs and desires. I think breeds should evolve as our lifestyles do, and if we want to preserve existing breeds in the process, the only thing we can do is start creating new ones. But that certainly doesn't mean someone inexperienced should be undertaking such a complicated, time consuming and in some ways dangerous venture. And of course the moral issue of creating generations of mutts that don't yet meet the goals for the breed should not be taken lightly.
> 
> But yeah, in this case I don't think the dog being described is needed or even a safe thing to intentionally create. No dog is capable of taking care of children, much less one that's supposed to be a guard dog, too. IMO that's really beyond the limitations of pretty much any non-human species.


I applaud the people who bred the Tamaska dog (sp?). That's a dog specifically bred to look like a wolf, but temperamentally be a dog. I applaud this creation because I hope it spares the wolf-dog hybrids that are created to feed some people's desires for wolves as pets, which I consider about the worst possible idea ever. (Except in a very few cases.)

However, the OP is looking to create a dog that already exists in numerous breeds, GSDs, Mals, Dobies, Rotties, pits, etc. There's absolutely no reason to create a breed that already exists 50 times over, not when that breeding program is going to result in numerous unwanted, possibly unstable mutts that will either have to be placed in homes or killed.

OP: just because you want something doesn't mean you should have it. I like to imagine the joy of owning 40 beagles. (Just imagine being swarmed by 40 excited beagles every time you come home from work.) I'm not actually going to do that for a wide variety of reasons, the most important being that I couldn't care for that many dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> OP: just because you want something doesn't mean you should have it. I like to imagine the joy of owning 40 beagles. (Just imagine being swarmed by 40 excited beagles every time you come home from work.) I'm not actually going to do that for a wide variety of reasons, the most important being that I couldn't care for that many dogs.


I agree fully, 

But and a very big but, are we not living in the "If I want it I should get it" era. The last couple decades has been the I want my kids to have it better than me, very commendable but not always possible. 

Now not sure if above applies to OP's thoughts but wondering......


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>>> Just imagine being swarmed by 40 excited beagles every time you come home from work.

That would be such a great rental job - Someone would keep a facility of 40 beagles or 101 dalmatian puppies. etc., and you pay $10 to come by and get a quick puppy fix, with none of the clean-up.

I think Harvard or Yale have rent-a-dog services for students around exam time for stress release....


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

Amaryllis said:


> I applaud the people who bred the Tamaska dog (sp?). That's a dog specifically bred to look like a wolf, but temperamentally be a dog. I applaud this creation because I hope it spares the wolf-dog hybrids that are created to feed some people's desires for wolves as pets, which I consider about the worst possible idea ever. (Except in a very few cases.)
> 
> However, the OP is looking to create a dog that already exists in numerous breeds, GSDs, Mals, Dobies, Rotties, pits, etc. There's absolutely no reason to create a breed that already exists 50 times over, not when that breeding program is going to result in numerous unwanted, possibly unstable mutts that will either have to be placed in homes or killed.
> 
> OP: just because you want something doesn't mean you should have it. I like to imagine the joy of owning 40 beagles. (Just imagine being swarmed by 40 excited beagles every time you come home from work.) I'm not actually going to do that for a wide variety of reasons, the most important being that I couldn't care for that many dogs.


The tamaskan lines has a big cover up, there was wolf used in the breedings of this animal and an awful lot of lies were told to try and make people think there was actually no wolf in them.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Cindy23323 said:


> The tamaskan lines has a big cover up, there was wolf used in the breedings of this animal and an awful lot of lies were told to try and make people think there was actually no wolf in them.


And this is why we can't have nice things. 

Any links on that? I'd be very interested in learning more.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

This said no wolf was used.... http://www.tamaskan-dog.us/history.html but this says there was wolf dog, http://www.tamaskanbreeders.com/Breed_Standard2.html Stupid internet.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Don't ruin the [email protected] They are already the ultimate guard dog imo. Not to mention a superb "nanny". They are an LGD therefore protect theur family, including gentle. Believe me despite the "nasty" attitude with strangers they are loving family dogs including small children. 

As to the one posters comment my CO could care less about a "juicy t bone steak". Meat has been proven not to deter her reaction. Being a bitch I guess a bitch in season wouldn't be a distraction.

COs don't seem to be very food motivated in general. I don't even think being fed raw has anything to do with it either. In reality any dog highly amped up isn't likely to be distracted by food if they have high drives.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Not even reading the thread, but no I have never considered making a new breed. As it happens there is already a breed with the qualities I love, as I'm sure there is for you if you look.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

kafkabeetle said:


> Inherently, I don't agree with this idea even slightly. People shouldn't *have to* settle for the breeds that currently exist if one doesn't meet a group of people's needs and desires. I think breeds should evolve as our lifestyles do, and if we want to preserve existing breeds in the process, the only thing we can do is start creating new ones. But that certainly doesn't mean someone inexperienced should be undertaking such a complicated, time consuming and in some ways dangerous venture. And of course the moral issue of creating generations of mutts that don't yet meet the goals for the breed should not be taken lightly.
> 
> But yeah, in this case I don't think the dog being described is needed or even a safe thing to intentionally create. No dog is capable of taking care of children, much less one that's supposed to be a guard dog, too. IMO that's really beyond the limitations of pretty much any non-human species.


a cane corso would also do those things, as would many of the LGD's esp if they are raised with children, they would likely regard the family as their 'flock' & protect it accordingly


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## airillusion (Aug 30, 2015)

Amaryllis said:


> I applaud the people who bred the Tamaska dog (sp?). That's a dog specifically bred to look like a wolf, but temperamentally be a dog. I applaud this creation because I hope it spares the wolf-dog hybrids that are created to feed some people's desires for wolves as pets, which I consider about the worst possible idea ever. (Except in a very few cases.)
> 
> However, the OP is looking to create a dog that already exists in numerous breeds, GSDs, Mals, Dobies, Rotties, pits, etc. There's absolutely no reason to create a breed that already exists 50 times over, not when that breeding program is going to result in numerous unwanted, possibly unstable mutts that will either have to be placed in homes or killed.
> 
> OP: just because you want something doesn't mean you should have it. I like to imagine the joy of owning 40 beagles. (Just imagine being swarmed by 40 excited beagles every time you come home from work.) I'm not actually going to do that for a wide variety of reasons, the most important being that I couldn't care for that many dogs.


I completely agree that if there is a specific need/want that hasn't been met, as long as that need/want is not unreasonable, responsibly developing a new breed is a good idea. As another poster said, our world is ever changing, why should dog breeds not adapt. For instance, in the past people had lots of space where a dog could run, now many people live in apartments so now small dogs are the need. 

As many on the board have pointed out, the OP's desired characteristics (at least the ones stated in the post) are already encompassed in a few breeds available today. As a person with allergies and because the number of people with allergies is on the rise, I love the idea of creating more varieties of hypoallergenic breeds but those backyard and irresponsible breeders are taking advantage of that need and giving those doodle crosses a bad rep. I also don't see the point of a Labradoodle since Labrador Retrievers and Poodles have similar characteristics (both are good at retrieving, both are great with kids if raised right, both are intelligent and easy to train). Maybe there are some characteristics I'm missing. But the biggest problem with Labradoodles is that both Labs and Poodles have the same genetic health issues. Wouldn't a responsible breeder wish to use a different cross of breeds to ultimately create a breed without those health issues?

Personally, my ideal breed would be a large, pointing breed that is intelligent and easy to train but also, most importantly, good for people with allergies (I personally prefer the Poodle hair to the Schnauzer hair). That is one I have not come across so I will likely have to get a Standard Poodle and do my best to train him/her for air-scenting and pointing.


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## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

I live in a place where CO are very common. And this is a breed I would never EVER suggest for families with children.They are huge,aggressive and require very serious training and are one persons dog.Females usually are softer,but many males have been seen attacking their owners in the show ring.Their mixes, however, tend to take the size and aggression from the CO,rather than replacing these traits with something from the other breed.There are many GSD and CO mixes here and they are known for being huge,hairy and aggressive.Many people take dogs like these for property protection and with protection I don't mean barking,I mean attacking and biting.Few years ago three dogs got loose from some private property,one of them was some kind of GSD mix,one CO and CO mix,together they mauled to death an old lady.Later there was few videos where these dogs was seen getting in to another peoples yards and mauling their dogs.Later,of course,they finally found whom the dogs belong to and they where put to sleep.What I'm saying is,this is not a dog for families with children! I'm not saying they all are like this,I have met some pretty nice CO and their mixes,but mostly they are human aggressive and because of their size they can cause a lot of damage.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

3-year old thread. Please start a new one.


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