# Is a "muzzle hold" and "alpha roll" correct to use ?



## silver wolves (Jul 13, 2014)

My 8 week old jrt puppy bites.
It broke skin and every time I tried to pet her she would bite. Especially when I stroke her head and tummy yes I do know the whole "Dominance" concept. But now she literally chases my fingers and gnaws them. So I did firm NOs and Short Time Outs. Only 20 secs to a 1 minute.
Until today she grabbed my arm with her teeth and WOULD NOT get off. I shook my arm and said firm NOs.Finally she gave in and let go but drew a bit of blood :S

So that was the last straw as she was eating my toes after that. I'd given her a 10 minute time out yesterday for continued skin breaking biting. So I did a Muzzle Hold like many people I know encourages me to. TBH I hate any kind of physical force on a young pup so I did it reluctantly.

I grabbed her muzzle and made direct eye contact. After the first hold she kept biting so I did it again longer then put her in her crate for a time out. I let her out 15 minutes later and literally crying and trying to kill herself getting out. When she got out she drank some water and played by herself. Then came up to me wagging her tail with submissive kind of stance.
I did a bit of training with her then she settled comftabley on my lap and LICKED me LICKED ME TILL I WAS SLIMY AND WET 
Now she is sleeping peacefully. 
However why did she suddenly change after the muzzle.grip and time out thing ?
Also was it the most right thing to do. If she shows dominance eg food possesion should I alpha roll ? I have not alpha rolles and rather not. I personally HATE any physical punishment.



Also any general training tips especially for leave or drop will be appreciated. 
My puppy is smart ( I think)
Since she's ALMOST house broken knows SIT and STAY . As well as COME. Beginning to understand QUIET.
And its her fourth day with us


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

No. Nonononononono.

Dominance in dogs isn't a thing. Puppies are just babies, and like all babies, they put things in their mouths and bite. You scared her silly, that's why she licked you, licking is an appeasement behavior in dogs.

Please go to dogstardaily.com and get the free downloads. Check out kikopup on youtube and zak george on youtube and facebook. There are stickies in the forums here about puppies and training.

ETA: Dogs are opportunistic predators. They do what works to get them what they want. The best way to train a dog is to make what you want align with what they want. My dog loves food and he's learned that doing things I like, for example sitting in the elevator, gets him food. He'll sit in the elevator all day, no matter the distraction. That same principal works with anything you want to train.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> No. Nonononononono.
> 
> Dominance in dogs isn't a thing. Puppies are just babies, and like all babies, they put things in their mouths and bite. You scared her silly, that's why she licked you, licking is an appeasement behavior in dogs.
> 
> ...


Everything Amaryllis said! There's no reason to base training on dominance or physical punishment. Think about the things you want your dog to do and train him to do those behaviors. 

You've done a great deal with him in the past four days. Just be careful not to overwhelm him. A few pointers:
- Just because a dog knows "sit" in the kitchen doesn't mean he knows it in the living room and he certainly doesn't know it outside. Dogs can be very literal thinkers, so they may not make the connection that sitting always means put your butt on the floor/ground; they may think it means put your butt on the blue carpet or the tile floor or when you're wearing red pants.  

- Be prepared for distraction issues - especially with a puppy. The entire world is new to them and they want to explore. Don't be surprised if they don't respond to "sit" when you're outside or in training class or when you have guests.

- Focus on teaching your dog what you want him to do. If there are things you don't want (e.g., jumping on people), put a positive spin on it (e.g., bow and then sit politely).

- Bite inhibition training is important and the key is consistency. As Amaryllis said, puppies explore with their mouths, so biting and chewing is natural for them. It will take weeks to see improvements and then only if you're consistent - every. single. nibble, you get up and walk away. High-pitched yelps make some dogs (it seems terriers, especially) more excited; you might have better luck with an "ow" or "ouch." Hanksimon has a great technique, but I can't seem to find it now.

- Your pup won't be fully house trained and trustworthy for a few months. It sounds like what you have now sounds like a great schedule that prevents her from making mistakes - that's fabulous. 

- A huge part of training is managing the environment so that your dog can succeed and avoid making mistakes and/or performing undesirable behaviors. It's far, far easier to prevent problems (e.g., counter surfing, jumping) than it is to fix them. 

In addition to the resources Amaryllis suggested, you might like Paul Owens. His were some of the first training books I read and I was hooked.


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## silver wolves (Jul 13, 2014)

I say NO when she bites and finish any game/stroking/petting but no more muzzle holding. However she now bites harder and draws blood amd mostly breaks skin. I don't really mind it but I do want her not to to bite. 
Will she grow out of it ? 
I'm taking her to obedience lessons after her jabs and socializing with neighbours dogs which will hopefully help.
I've tried food distractions. Bought her a nylon bone and all but...
Any tips ?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

We have a forum full of tips! And, because I'm feeling generous:

Everything you want to know about puppies.

Training bite inhibition

Moving beyond the dominance myth


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Don't finish the game. If she bites, stop the game, stand up and walk away from her. Zero attention. Use a 'no reward marker' like oops or nope (flat out no is not my favorite). Keeping on petting or playing just says what she's doing okay and with a JRT yelping (often recommended) would probably just wind her up more.

No matter what, though, once you use the above method you have to do it EVERY time, consistently, and you have to expect it to take time to work. You're asking her to stop a normal, natural, dog behavior (and it's right to ask her to stop) and it takes time for the idea to sink in and then takes longer for her habit to be NOT biting rather than biting. Expect it to take a couple of months, even if you are 200% consistent and remove yourself and stop all fun every time she's mouthy. Expect it to take longer if you don't.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Removing yourself when she nips is very important. Not just stopping the play/petting/etc. but physically removing yourself. Put up a gate and step over the gate, go in the other room and shut the door, whatever it takes for you to go away. Once she figures out that nipping makes playmates go away she should get the idea. Praising for licking or other non-nipping behavior is also helpful, to give her an alternative to nipping.


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## silver wolves (Jul 13, 2014)

I stop all game and leave the room.
But, she simply eats my arm fingers etc.
She is eating her tail leg as well.

She won't stop I give her tim outs praise her when she doesn't bite but...
And if I say Off when she's deliberately biting she'll seldom growl.
Butbher nipping as I say is getting harder.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

How can she eat your arm once you have left the room? If you come back and she starts biting again you need to leave again. This will take time to sink in it wont happen in 4 days.


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## silver wolves (Jul 13, 2014)

I'm bad at explaining things.
I meant after I went back to the room
But will she still like me even if I leave her and stop playing.
She seems to play by herself alot now.


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## Kiwifruit (Jul 2, 2014)

Yes, she'll still like you if you leave her and stop playing. Dogs are very forgiving  She's very young so it may take a bit, but she will learn that when she bites you the play stops, so she'll learn to stop biting. It's not a bad thing for her to be able to play on her own.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

silver wolves said:


> I stop all game and leave the room.
> But, she simply eats my arm fingers etc.
> She is eating her tail leg as well.
> 
> ...


It's not going to stop in a few days. It will take weeks and just when it starts to improve, she'll begin teething and it will get bad again. Consistency is key - every time she bites you, get up and leave. Give her other things to chew, don't allow her to play with your hands, and leave every time she bites.

If you're worried about he still liking you, do some training with her. Set her up for success and teach her things. Use force-free methods and she'll love you.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

{I heard my name written }
It was the Timeout (not the muzzlegrip) that got her attention and got her to be sweet and to lick you.

For Bite Inhibition, See: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/252738-problems-biting-during-play.html#post2690562

Don't improvise or cut corners. It can take 3 days before the pup will begin to understand what you are doing, and to respond correctly.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> It can take 3 days before the pup will begin to understand what you are doing, and to respond correctly.


 I'll say that if you have a particularly stubborn pup, or a particularly excitable one, it might take more than that.....and it will take a fair bit longer to have it truly stick and become habit not to nip....just wanted to add that, because 3 days (or 4 or 5) of not seeing results can feel like an awful long time, and make you feel like results aren't going to come....they will! Just stick with it!


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

Having been through a very nippy puppyhood recently I have to agree that it takes a significant amount of time and consistency, but there's hope  The dog I grew up with responded very well to us yelping, but this seemed to get Charlie riled up even more. Immediately stopping playtime by standing up and walking away seemed like it wasn't working because it definitely didn't produce immediate results and was honestly frustrating because sometimes he'd start again as soon as we returned and it went like that over and over again. But the behavior slowly disappeared and he quickly learned that if he sat nicely he'd get attention again. He gets a little nippy when he's over excited but has learned bite inhibition and has adult teeth, which definitely helps. If he accidently grips my hand when playing tug you can see he immediately releases once he knows he hit skin instead of toy. 

You definitely won't see immediate results, but work on saying "nope" or something similar and walking away. If it happens over and over again, then maybe redirect to a different game or training session.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

My dog was the absolute worst vampire piranha monster puppy. He bit non-stop, drew blood (those teeth are just so sharp!). Yelping and withdrawing attention didn't affect him at all. You could literally walk around the house with a puppy hanging off your pants! It was horrible, I cried a ton. I found that an "Eh eh" noise stopped his biting when other sounds didn't. To this day if he's going after something and I "eh eh" he'll stop and look at me (convenient on walks!). I always had something acceptable nearby to stick in his mouth when he was getting bitey. I also started taking him to puppy play groups, and he learned from other puppies what was "too rough" for play. In the end what I think helped the most was just him getting older. I never used any aversive methods to train him!


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

you have a 8 week old pup. everything in your house including you is something for the dog
to chew on or nip. with consistent training and age your pup will slowly learn not to nip. i actually
think age plays a large part in a dog when it stops or slows down on nipping.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> Until today she grabbed my arm with her teeth and WOULD NOT get off. I shook my arm and said firm NOs.Finally she gave in and let go but drew a bit of blood :S


Yeah ... human appendages do seem to be THEE most interesting toy by far, in most pup's opinions anyways.

That said, nylabones and such are ok for general gnawing, at will, while laying calmly on a mat etc. But for a pup who's new to the world I'm sure they're BORING. They don't move, wiggle, shake, yelp, or react the same way that human arms do. If I was a dog given the two choices I'd probably have a preference for the dangly fleshy moovey things too, lol. 

Provide your dog with an appropriate outlet for what she naturally wants to do - chase INTERESTING things and bite them. Try either a flirt pole type of set up, or use a rope toy or fuzzy toy and wiggle it around on the ground allowing/ encouraging her to bite that. It's a great way to begin teaching an on-cue "tug", in concert with teaching a release or "let go" cue. Those two behaviours go conveniently hand in hand, no pun intended. Great way to teach some impulse control too. I suggest you only present this particular toy, whatever it is, when YOU are interacting with it and the dog. It shouldn't be left laying around at the dog's disposal; it's always picked up promptly and put away at the end of each session, until the next session begins. Numerous brief sessions of this per day should suffice to satisfy the dog's natural needs and desires, plus it'll save your skin as well.

Oh, and stop listening to 'the people you know'. They're idiots, apparently. Hopefully your up-coming instructor will be a resource for good advice whenever you might need it going forward.


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