# German shepherd conformation and movement videos that I found fasinating



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

These were excellent IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ZBT2OVTPQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfgtBHwE7es


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7jxS1hYOiI

Conditioning the show trot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w7Q5Qex0IQ


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I'm sorry, I just don't "get it".. can you explain to me the actual purpose of the GSD's conformation.. that hunched over, crouched positioning? It's so drastically different from any other canine, I just can't wrap my mind around how it can possibly be of any benefit.


----------



## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

Yvonne said:


> Conditioning the show trot
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w7Q5Qex0IQ


I'm glad they mention to try and keep the dog off pavement as much as possible, because its really hard on them (try running on pavement for a while with no shoes). I conditioned my dog almost the same way, I used roller blades instead of a bike. I also played fetch on hills to get his leg muscles built up. It really does a good job at keeping them fit.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I have always used hill work and swimming. I am thinking of conditioning my Ulf with the bike as here we now have access to shaded packed dirt biking trails that are level.

German Shepherds are trotters. Their body is longer than they are tall. Are you familiar with trotters in horses? his paragraph from the German shepherd dog club of America says it well "While both BCs & GSDs are sheep-herding breeds, the similarities pretty much end there. Border Collies are small, agile dogs, built for quick bursts of speed and sudden stops. German Shepherd Dogs are larger animals, built to trot. BCs are an 'eye breed', which refers to the characteristic stalking posture displayed working. Australian Kelpies & some Australian Shepherds also display 'eye'. Most herding breeds, including GSDs, are referred to as 'upstanding', meaning they don't crouch or slink. Upstanding dogs don't seem to 'feel' the stocks' flight zone the way eye breeds do."

Many people mistake the standard saying level in the back as in straight across with tail base and withers being on the same plane. In fact it means in a flowing extended trot the dogs back does not move that only the undercarriage and legs do to conserve energy in the dog for full day herd tending.



this video will show you better the movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0


























The trot on my Ronaldo is ground eating and at his trot most dogs must gallop hard to try to keep up with him. He covers ground quickly with minimal effort to his body and would be able to keep covering ground for miles without pause as is needed to tend herd over long distance for large flocks.

I do not comprehend what you mean by hunched? I do not see a hunch in my dogs? 
example Ronaldo:


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Those videos do a very good job of showing how a dog is put together I particularly liked how they went in depth about shoulder angle. There were even a few dogs in there even I liked. I have issue with the arching toplines of many of the dogs pictured but I don't pretend to love everything about american dogs ether.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I did not care for a couple of the dogs they used as example however I feel it did show the differences well and explain them. I also love the shoulder explanation.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I hate dial up. Monday.. I will look.

Meanwhile, here is an image of Hambletonian, one of the foundations sires of the Standradbred horse (and after whom the race is named). Note that in addition to being rump high, he is also longer than tall like the German Shepherd.









And here is Questa's sire for comparison:









and an example or a Standarbred moving (this is a pace, not a trot, but the idea is the same). 

Nihilator, sire of Niatross.


----------



## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Yvonne said:


> German shepherd conformation and movement videos that I found fasinating


Hi Yvonne.

Last night I watched a show about the raising, training and development of working Shepherd puppies in the London police force. I marvelled at the beauty of these young dogs. And 'Lo and Behold', this morning I came upon your posting and the linked videos.

Rather than pose the obvious question(s), I would genuinely appreciate you, or any other of our Shepherd experts, to address the following clip. I would love to _finally_ understand the rationale and why's behind these radical transitions!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRU8UdMnssU&feature=fvwrel

My earnest thanks, in advance!!!


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

CoverTune said:


> I'm sorry, I just don't "get it".. can you explain to me the actual purpose of the GSD's conformation.. that hunched over, crouched positioning? It's so drastically different from any other canine, I just can't wrap my mind around how it can possibly be of any benefit.


 
It's a 'powerhouse' Kinda like the low back end of a Corvette, it aids in cornering, high accelleration and even in the ability to jump barriers. It also aids in the dogs ability to 'drop' and take off quickly when working cattle or sheep.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am going to be working with one of the well known GSD herding people in the US (I hope!). Unlike the Border Collie, the GSD does NOT drop. They stand when they stop to take pressure off of stock. BC's and dogs that herd like that DO drop and it is their "eye" the controls the stock. However, the need for a powerhouse to drive 'em forward is a very accurate assessment of what a good GSD needs to do herding.. and a ground eating trot that does not waste energy so they can keep it up all day.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Prntmkr,

Can you supply a video of better quality? that was very grainy and also when people view the old photos they do not notice that the dogs are not stacked as they are in later photos. The position of the footing dramatically makes a difference in how the topline appears. 

Ty Elana all wonderful points and thanks for the horse photos. You are correct in gsd herding gsds do not "drop" and therefore differ than other herding breeds just as was posted in the above information on herding reasons for the gsd conformation.


----------



## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Yvonne said:


> Prntmkr,
> Can you supply a video of better quality?


 No. Sorry...

I wasn't looking for a video like that. 
I accidently stumbled across it, 
as it was on the same youtube page as 
the videos to which you linked.

I suppose the basic question is, 
if the rear end structure of show GSD's is "ideal", 
why do working lines, with dogs that (presumably) 
actually do the job(s) for which the breed was intended, 
not share that same structure? 

Inquiring minds _really_ want to know!


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Most working line dogs never see a flock of sheep in their lives. They are bred for sports like schutzhund where vertical leaping onto the decoy and jumping the walls are more desired. Fast hits and full gallops are preferred. The shorter more square shape is optimal for this over the herding long framed trotter.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Because theories override everything and "more is better". Do I believe that a bit more rear and reach in the working lines would be beneficial? Yes, I truly do. Do I believe that the extreme it has been taken to in some of the American lines is beneficial? No, I do not.

There are some beautifully structured working lines I would breed to in a heartbeat if their owners/breeders would allow it (Frankie and Francesco Anrebri come to mind, as does Paska Salztalblick). I think Ellex and Branko Salztalblick also have beautiful, harmonious structure, but it is not to the taste of many American show line fanciers largely because it is not what they are used to looking at.

Also, you will not find many working lines doing herding (many GSDs in general). They focus on schutzhund, and while schutzhund and herding require the same genetic components, GSDs are becoming more and more like giant Malinois, thanks to the cry for more prey drive (it makes the dog easier to work). Defense and true aggression are lacking, and schutzhund is becoming more and more PC, so it no longer tests the dog as it used to. This is a problem.

The working line camp has not avoided extremes....they just avoided extremes in physical appearances. There are many dogs out there with extreme drives and no offswitch (nerve issues). Also, I do think people focus too much on the rear (fanciers and lay people alike) and do not look at the extremes in the rest of the dog, like roached toplines, or extreme fronts that are really the result of loose ligaments instead of a proper shoulder (the idea that a dog MUST have its forefoot reach out past the point of its nose to be a good mover is ludicrous to me).


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

This is a pic of my youngest at this time I think he was 8 months old. He is only trotting around playing and it is not a full gaiting photo but in it you can see a great length of stride that is effortless and free flowing. I will have nice photos from the sieger show upcoming the end of April to share that will better show his gaiting.









same puppy at 5 months old










This pup comes from an excellent stud/grandsire my friend owns that Ulf Kintzel put HGH on. This pup was selected because of the background in his lines for correct structure/movement, Work titles in both schutzhund and herding. The owner of the HGH dog shared with Ulf the name of this pup being Ulf and she said he was amused however my pup was named such because of the meaning of the name.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here are some stills of Mirada (From 11 months old). These first couple show you what she looks like moving easy and free and a loose lead. Strong, level topline



























And what she looks like when she's working just a little too hard. Her back arches the slightest bit, and you can see she's putting more effort into it, though she really doesn't need to.









Mirada from last week in Raleigh, 14 months old:









Biking at 13 months









Loose in the yard at 13 months:


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I was not replying to you with my last post. I neither agree or disagree. So please don't feel the need to go on a discussion I was not bringing out with you. I was just sharing more of my thoughts on the subject and photos as time allowed me to. I am off to condition my dog in the sunshine. When I return I will post more later on some other points that have been on my mind.

I noticed how much the first pic of Ulf I posted reminds me of that pacer you posted Elana lol


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I was not replying to you with my last post. I neither agree or disagree.


Uh...what? I was just adding to the discussion.


----------



## kosmeds (Mar 21, 2010)

I can't handle that sloping back. The BBC special on "The Truth About Pedigreed Dogs" was most revealing. I believe the current conformation standards are cruel and ugly, producing frogs instead of dogs.

I'd much rather have this--a healthy and natural-looking Malinois.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Both of you have dogs with beautiful motion. 

Yvonne and Elana, I didn't know that GSDs didn't drop when herding as I have n't had the opportunity. I've never seen one herding ( only doing protection work ) thank you forth information.


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Xeph--I see what you mean with Mirada arching when she tries too hard. There is a clear difference. I am a dog show/conformation fetus--I know nothing about what they should/shouldn't look like, but I can tell the difference between when she is effortless and when she isn't.

Gracie (being the awkward thing she is) doesn't have a gait that I can tell, but when she tries to move too fast, her rear end seems to outrun her front end  She's also not a full GSD.

Elana -I do see the similarities between horse gait and the GSD gait. I have often thought that. I good moving GSD is an absolute thing of beauty to watch. 

Yvonne--the pic of your dog playing in the snow is lovely. GSDs always look so regal even when they aren't trying.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The BBC special on "The Truth About Pedigreed Dogs" was most revealing.


I can't really call propaganda "revealing", but this thread isn't about Malinois or that BBC "educational" program, so it's neither here nor there.



> She's also not a full GSD


.
That may be true, and she may not gait like a GSD, but with time you can learn to see balance in a dog, purebred or not


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

kosmeds said:


> I can't handle that sloping back. The BBC special on "The Truth About Pedigreed Dogs" was most revealing. I believe the current conformation standards are cruel and ugly, producing frogs instead of dogs.
> 
> I'd much rather have this--a healthy and natural-looking Malinois.


The Mal and the GSD were bred for different purposes and that so called "special" was pure AR hype. The Mal is a galloper (think of a quarter Horse or an Indy car) where the GSD is a "trotter" They are built for a totally different gait and both are fine the way they were built. Oh and that Mal is either a VERY poor example of the breed or it's very immature.


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

I would love to see some real pictures of your dogs moving sometime Yvonne.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'd actually would be really interested to see some other stacked photos of Ronaldo, and some other movement pics of Ulf (I know you said the Sieger is coming up this month). He's a nice puppy, but I don't feel I can really see his movement in either of the photos.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> The Mal and the GSD were bred for different purposes *and that so called "special" was pure AR hype*. The Mal is a galloper (think of a quarter Horse or an Indy car) where the GSD is a "trotter" They are built for a totally different gait and both are fine the way they were built. Oh and that Mal is either a VERY poor example of the breed or it's very immature.


No it was not and AR had nothing to do with the making of that 'special'. What you are saying is not only just your opinion, but as it has not the slightest bit of basis in truth it is also libelous.

If you would like to, please join the Canine Genetics yahoo list. You can go back in the archives to where Jemima conversed with many list members to read about her motivations for her programme. I was there and also had personal emails with her prior to its production. I know full well she has no interest in furthering the AR agenda. She has also made that point publicly many times since. but some still insist on shooting the messenger.

If your point is that AR can use some of the information from that production in their quest to vilify breeding, that is true. AR has already used, for years, much of what the show breeding world touts as 'best practice' to marginalize breeders not in their ranks. . . . so then by that logic, we should lump all that are involved in the show world in the AR bucket as well.

I just don't think so.

Sorry about the hijack. There are many, many threads about the PDE program that can be called back up if the side topic needs to be continued. Perhaps we could start with a list of the many positive changes made, especially in the UK, to help address the issues highlighted since the documentary aired.

SOB


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*insert sigh here*


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

SOB,

A study is only as good as the variety of specimens in it. That video was made using a handful of horrid dogs in England where gsd breeding has a vast amount of issues to begin with. This video was discussed of course on all the major gsd forums and the consensus is that the video is bull. 


Real pics of my dogs movement? hmmm elaborate? Do you mean snug them at the neck and restrict their ability to gait naturally for a photo? I prefer to see how a dog moves naturally instead of trying to force it into keeping pace and lengthening its stride but yet stay at your hip causing the head to be upright when the dog should be allowed to pull with the front and lower its head  I was thinking about explaining this with diagrams if I get the time to draw them.

The German style show collar lays down near the dogs breast bone and the dog is naturally trotting a great distance out in front of the handler. It is felt that holding a collar up at the dogs jaw creates a trot for the eyes that does not exist. Dogs for AKC are bred to look good/level trotting with their heads upright and if you look their necks and shoulders do not have the same conformation as a German line show gsd because they have to alter it to be able to trot that way. Most used to this form of handling feel uncomfortable with a faster trot trying to reach outwards and will lay their ears flat and not look comfortable at all attempting the same style as sv trotting. The movement of the legs on the AKC dog is fast and back and forth but there is no show of power no pushing and pulling rather it is simple movement over the ring to keep beside a handler. 

I do not chase my dogs with a camera while working/conditioning them. I will post pics of the show and you are welcome to ones of them playing about the yard. A while back I posted some videos of them in movement as well. Ronaldo was entered in veterans class for the sieger as well but has been pulled for a sprained toe from a hike we had him on. I am sure of you google his name you will find all kinds of photos of him though as he is a very well known dog in the world.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Yvonne, I was not remarking about whether or not people agreed with the information about german shepherds on PDE.

I was refuting, as I will continue to, that the *"so called "special" was pure AR hype." * as I know for a fact it was not.

The point can be made, if one chooses to, that there is disagreement about the information presented on it without that accusation. 

SOB


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Real pics of my dogs movement? hmmm elaborate?


Something where your dogs are #1 fully extending, and #2 aren't coming AT the camera. I don't think coming and going PICTURES show you anything (as opposed to coming and going video, or seeing the dog in person). The first three pics of Mirada show her gaiting freely on her own. She has a leash on, but I'm not holding it (note how it's on the ground). That movement IS her, free and natural.



> I do not chase my dogs with a camera while working/conditioning them


Nor do I. My husband stands in one spot and we get gaiting photos while I bike or run the dogs. He's a great help that way.



> Dogs for AKC are bred to look good/level trotting with their heads upright and if you look their necks and shoulders do not have the same conformation as a German line show gsd because they have to alter it to be able to trot that way.


That's really not true at all. BTW, you'll notice that Mirada gaits with her head forward (but not down), and I do not string her up to show.



> The movement of the legs on the AKC dog is fast and back and forth but there is no show of power no pushing and pulling rather it is simple movement over the ring to keep beside a handler.


This is also not true.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Your opinions... If the coming and going were not important as well, judges would not ask it in the ring. Good evening Xeph


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If the coming and going were not important as well, judges would not ask it in the ring.


Where did I say coming and going weren't important?


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> SOB,
> 
> A study is only as good as the variety of specimens in it. That video was made using a handful of horrid dogs in England where gsd breeding has a vast amount of issues to begin with. This video was discussed of course on all the major gsd forums and the consensus is that the video is bull.
> 
> ...


By real movement pictures I mean exactly that. Honestly you seem to be trying to make a huge point of power in their movement, but judging by the pictures you posted your dog does not seem to have much power behind his movement at all. He doesn't really look like he's going anywhere. Hence my asking for better photos.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

What is your problem? Do you have more to say about the videos I posted? Instead of trying to create a personal conflict? I will not allow you to bait me and will ignore your responses.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Nobody is baiting anybody. People were being honest and just asked for pictures where Ulf was able to be better "seen" in motion.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Is Ulf the title of this thread?


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Is Ulf the title of this thread?


No, no it's not. But if you are going to brag up your dogs correct and perfect movement and then provide pictures that don't really show anything you should expect to be asked for better pictures.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

No, but GSD conformation and movement is involved in the thread, and you posted pics of Ulf moving (which ties in with the thread) and all people asked for/wondered about was if there were perhaps some better movement photos.

Instead of just saying yes or no, you insulted the way Americans show their dogs and went off on another tangent about how the German way is better. BTW I know about the German collars...I think they're great for SV style showing (obviously), but I really hate the way they can just come off the dog if tension isn't kept on them. Just a personal thing.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I offer my dog to qualified German judges at shows for critique, not to people who wish them for the wrong reasons. I do not have an overwhelming desire to make my dog stack and act like it is constantly in a show ring to parade itself before a camera. Training here is not trot trot trot on leashes. My dogs have excellent muscle tone and are mentally stimulated as their form of training  If you wish so much to see him in action you are welcome to travel to the show


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Jeez, Yvonne, a lot of people would find it interesting to see your dogs. Why assume the worst about everyone's motivations?


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks for letting me know my intentions were bad. Here I thought I was just honestly interested in real movement pictures of your dog so I can see the difference between am. lines and german lines a bit more clearly. As for traveling to the show? I don't care about you or your dog quite that much honestly.

But once again you win Yvonne your dogs are godly, and the german way is the only correct way.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Training here is not trot trot trot on leashes.


Shock! It's not that way here either!


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

As I can't watch the Videos because Youtube Hates me and I hate Youtube, or its possibly my Computer and Youtube hate each other and I may have nothing to do with it in the grand sceme of things I will comment on the photos posted above as that's all I can comment on. 

Ulf- Is a very nice looking dog but I have to agree with Upendi's Mom that I can't really see the Power your talking about IN the first Picture its a little to front facing for me to fully judge, and the side view he looks to be tucked up and hunched. But I am just learning about GSD Confo and prehaps this is the Proper way for a German Line GSD to Run/Move? 

Xeph-I see what you mean completely about Mirada hunching when she is pulling though I do agree she dosn't need to. Is this something you and she need to work on? Or is this something that will never change?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Is this something you and she need to work on?


It's just a matter of speed really, and her pulling too hard into the collar (one of the reasons she was on the live ring for awhile...to help temper that issue). Individual dogs will do various things when they're working too hard.

Some will roach over the loin a little, some will start to ground pound or lift, others will have their topline start bouncing like mad, even though there's really nothing wrong with the topline...it is simply physics at work, and too much "reverb" through the spine results in a bouncing back. Some dogs will start to kick up in the rear, because they're digging in too hard and their follow through becomes "extreme".

Now, with the last picture, even though Mirada is arching in the topline, the movement itself is exciting, and the judge will either forget/ignore the topline, or they won't notice it at all. That said, I do not like to race my bitch at breakneck speed. We go "nice and easy" and she can kick it up a notch or take it down as I ask her too. She does and will pull out in front of me (in the gaiting shots with the leash dropped, I am BEHIND her, and I just let the leash go).

Dogs at all breed shows are often shown next to the handler not because that's how they're trained, but because there is no ROOM to let the dog out in front (not until group). If the dog is let out in front, it's not as far as they're let out in a specialty ring.

I have seen the same dog shown in the all breed ring, and in a specialty ring. In the all breed ring, he's shown at a slower pace next to the handler (and the head is NOT up while he gaits). When at a specialty, he shows 10 feet out in front of his handler, and yes, his head DOES come up....because he's being doubled.

AKC GSDs are not built to gait with their heads up. HOWEVER, fronts HAVE changed because a dog with its head up "looks better" (I do not agree), and so in trying to get that head up "more" fronts have been bred differently without people realizing it. The result is fronts that can be a bit too upright, and are steep in the upper arm. Conversely, German dogs tend to be very front heavy, because they do so much pulling, and very little gaiting the way we Americans are used to seeing it. Muscle builds up in their shoulders and chest because they pull into the collar so hard and so often (it's what they're supposed to do). That will limit reach more than the construction of the shoulder (which cannot work to its full potential when there is a curvature of the spine).

Think of, say, a body builder vs a gymnast. The body builder has a TON of muscle, but his flexibility (reach) becomes limited because muscle is "bunchy". A gymnast, however, is lean tissue (and still very toned), and sinew. The ligaments are supple and easily stretched, and so they can bend much more easily, and in numerous ways.

Neither is better than the other, just different, with different attributes and different advantages and disadvantages.

ETA: By the way, Mirada was working so hard because she was trying to get to her fizbee, and I wasn't going to let her gallop to it. We were still working on pairing a command with her moving out on her own.


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Xeph said:


> ETA: By the way, Mirada was working so hard because she was trying to get to her fizbee, and I wasn't going to let her gallop to it. We were still working on pairing a command with her moving out on her own.


How mean of you! Keeping her away from her fizbee!

Your comparison between body builder/gymnast is a good one. That makes sense. 

And Yvonne--no one was looking to be critical of your dogs. The vibe I got was that they just wanted to see a German line dog as opposed to an American one. I would also be interested as I am learning little by little about gaiting and showing by reading the forum. If you took it the wrong way, I don't know how that happened...I just read a request to see him in motion from the side because he was a nice looking GSD.

*Shrug*


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The vibe I got was that they just wanted to see a German line dog as opposed to an American one.


This. It is, IMO/E very hard to find a gaiting STILL of a German dog. There are often things in the way of the dog, or the dog is not fully extended. You're not seeing anything of the dog.

With Americans, people are nuts about side gait, and so it's very easy to find movement shots of many dogs.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Those pics were offered after the show Yogachic  I have no problem offering well done photos of my dog gaiting at the show. This was explained.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

op2: 

:doh:


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here's a picture of a west German dog in full extension:









I do not care for his topline at all, but you can see the dog. His reach is lacking due to the extreme nature of his topline and the low set of his neck, unfortunately (his front is moving more "up" instead of "out"), but he has nice drive off the rear.

Here's another dog:









This dog is obviously moving more quickly than the other dog, and again, a little more "up" than "out", and not the best topline. I'd like to see more extension in the front, but beautiful drive off the rear, though I'd like to see him slower. BEAUTIFUL suspension. Absolutely gorgeous.

Dutch Sieger Elan von der Herderskring








Yet again, the topline, BUT his reach is better than the former two. You can see him reach out and forward, instead of up towards the sky. Very moderate dog, lovely overreach. I think he might kick up in the rear a bit, but he does have full extension in the follow through.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

I just had to, because I have *ZERO* idea on how this dog managed to...do....whatever it is he's doing in that picture. xD


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I just did German shepherd gaiting image search found lots  http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2494846148/










Notice the German style show collar placement and how the front of the dog differs in movement, also notice the rear end being engaged in propelling the dog forward. If we have any dressage riders here they will understand the concept of the feet moving when and where they are supposed to but lacking in forward propulsion and power movement  




























***DELETED

This one looks like the picture of my puppy Ulf I posted earlier on this thread 

***DELETED


The gaiting photos in German style is not about toplines. They are not supposed to be head up trit trotting so that their topline is perfect. The gaiting is for showing the dogs power and movement and that is why they are allowed to have their head. Again a horse reference.... Any members here riders that have show jumped or dressage? How does the amount of rein given to the horse affect it's movement and how it is one the bit? How much does limiting the horses forward reach with it's head affect it's balance in a way to restrict how it moves in physical conditions?


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

I know very little about conformation in *any* breed; however, there is a profound difference in the AmLines and the Euro lines.

Is the back supposed to be that roached? IMO, and to my inexperienced eyes, it's not appeasing and looks unnatural. I also can't see much difference in rear leg movement...


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

They are not roached in stack. Thank you, I am sure their owners love that one.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I dont think it was a jab at their owners, i think it was just an opinion.


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't care if the topline isn't supposed to be 'perfect', but that dog has a seriously messed up back...


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

It is an insult to critique people's dogs without their permission on a public forum and say things about them like that especially when it is not true.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> They are not roached in stack. Thank you, I am sure their owners love that one.


Unless the lingo is a lot different than what I thought, I didn't see a single dog you posted to be what I know as "stacked". I saw dogs gaiting, and I did not enjoy what I saw.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Each to their own. Because it is rude to post peoples dogs and then critique them publicly without the owners permission I do not post am breds and show my point in the differences. Any gsd owners willing to offer up their dogs for it is welcome. I will not say bad things about people's dogs and them not be here offering their dogs for it. It is rude and not acceptable among show people.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Isnt it those dogs jobs to be critiqued ... as to how close they fit the breed standard and represent their breed?

And isn't the critique of that all opinion ... I mean when a judge is judging it is an opinion as to how close they fit that standard


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Each to their own. Because it is rude to post peoples dogs and then critique them publicly without the owners permission I do not post am breds and show my point in the differences. Any gsd owners willing to offer up their dogs for it is welcome. I will not say bad things about people's dogs and them not be here offering their dogs for it. It is rude and not acceptable among show people.


But it's not rude and unacceptable to take pictures of other people's dogs and post them on a public forum, on a thread about GSD conformation?

WTF, dude. Srsly.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

> Isnt it those dogs jobs to be critiqued ... as to how close they fit the breed standard and represent their breed?


 No, it is only acceptable that they be critiqued when the owner posts and asks for one or takes the dog before a judge who is accepted as a proper authority to critique their dog.


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

upendi'smommy said:


> I don't care if the topline isn't supposed to be 'perfect', but that dog has a seriously messed up back...


You are honestly telling me Yvonne that you can look at that dog and think it is sound when it's back is nearly a u shape? Seriously?!


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

I love how my last post went totally ignored.

Unable to answer such a burning question?


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/04_The_Back/The_Back.html

Just wanted to see that and double check


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Seriously, lol I have seen that dog in a stack and it is NOT roached. Bad photos or photos showing a movement that a person does not understand does not give the truth of the dog. 

And people wonder why I did not wish to offer gaiting pics of my dogs that were not professionally taken on here lol

The dogs in those sketches are NOT pulling like the one in the photo


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Seriously, lol I have seen that dog in a stack and it is NOT roached. Bad photos or photos showing a movement that a person does not understand does not give the truth of the dog.
> 
> And people wonder why I did not wish to offer gaiting pics of my dogs that were not professionally taken on here lol
> 
> The dogs in those sketches are NOT pulling like the one in the photo


Then post stacked pictures. He looks like sh*t. Plain and simple.

And you can quote me on that.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Another photo of that dog...







He is not U shaped.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Note to self: Never get a GSD.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And people wonder why I did not wish to offer gaiting pics of my dogs that were not professionally taken on here lol


Really? My pics weren't professionally taken...just stills pulled from a video, and you can see my dog's topline just fine.

And that dog looks BETTER in a stack, but there's still a curve in his spine. That's the honest to god truth.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

And I had the good manners not to critique what I see in your dog publicly


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

This is one of the dog in questions progeny, I suppose you will argue that this dog is not roached either.









And in fact yes he is still roached in a stack.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> And I had the good manners not to critique what I see in your dog publicly


The dogs in the movement pics you posted, IIRC, do not belong to you either; therefore, what you said here is moot.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And I had the good manners not to critique what I see in your dog publicly


I'm honestly wondering if you know what a GOOD critique is. A good critique touches on the dogs attributes AND its faults. It does not concentrate on ALL the good and NONE of the bad, or ALL the bad and NONE of the good. A good critique is like a good dog, honest and balanced.

My bitch has faults. Never have I said she didn't (in fact, I've stated what her faults are multiple times). No dog is perfect. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

ETA: Mirada needs stronger ligamentation, a stronger underjaw, a tad less rear, a longer upper arm, better bone, tighter feet, and a longer, less steep croup. While she is not faulted for it, I personally would also like to see her with a bit more size.

But she's clean coming and going, has a beautiful prosternum, good ribbing (that I hope will improve more as she matures), excellent tail set, a high wither, and a firm back in motion, as well as excellent suspension. She is definitely extreme compared to (some) German dogs, but she's moderate next to a great many American dogs, and her movement is not super extreme, but it IS largely efficient and effortless.

I'd honestly LOVE to do C course herding with her, and watch her gait around shape all day. She's got the ability to do it. Unfortunately C Course trainers are lacking, and thus we'll be pursuing A course, but we'll have a blast doing the work!


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Then why is all I ever see posted on German showline dogs here is omg that topline no that topline.... nothing ever nice.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Then why is all I ever see posted on German showline dogs here is omg that topline no that topline.... nothing ever nice.


Are you 12?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Xeph said nice stuff about the dogs she posted.


----------



## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Then why is all I ever see posted on German showline dogs here is omg that topline no that topline.... nothing ever nice.


Did you even read the post in which Xeph posted examples of german dogs? She posted a compliment about one aspect of EVERY dog she posted.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

You know I stayed away from that breed my bitch pick the stud thread thing you have going without disrespecting you, I should have known I could not expect the same maturity in return. Who are the 12 year olds?


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> You know I stayed away from that breed my bitch pick the stud thread thing you have going without disrespecting you, I should have known I could not expect the same maturity in return. Who are the 12 year olds?


You, ma'am, are being ridiculous.

I wonder if we're all just feeding a troll here. That's how it's beginning to seem.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Yvonne said:


> No, it is only acceptable that they be critiqued when the owner posts and asks for one or takes the dog before a judge who is accepted as a proper authority to critique their dog.


Isn't asking questions and asking about specific details and saying "I don't like this" or "I like this" a way for people to LEARN? I wasn't born a Dog Aficionado, I learned what I learned by asking questions and deciding what I like/don't like.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Note to self: Never get a GSD.


I was never tempted in the first place but if I had been...sheesh


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Note to self: Never get a GSD.


Why do you think I keep saying no more GSD's? This is insane.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

This thread is precisely why I _never_ want to get into conformation.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Why do you think I keep saying no more GSD's? This is insane.


I'm sorry, but you know you're committed to a 'Rada spawn xD



> This thread is precisely why I never want to get into conformation.


That does sadden me. Truly. I try VERY hard to welcome people, and teach. I'm still learning (always will be), and yup, I'm young, but I always love to help educate, and to learn with others.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Shaina said:


> I was never tempted in the first place but if I had been...sheesh


Lol me either (well I mean I had a 'GSD' in the past but you know what I mean...)

I am glad the papillon conformation threads tend to go a little more... civil.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Okay okay okay TIMEOUT
I'm going to go about this a different way.
Why was the curvature in the spine important? It is obviously different in am. lines and german lines. I see it says it has to do with strength against downward pressure ... but why was that necessary/ what does it help them to do?


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Xeph said:


> That does sadden me. Truly. I try VERY hard to welcome people, and teach. I'm still learning (always will be), and yup, I'm young, but I always love to help educate, and to learn with others.


I guess I'd have to go into knowing that I'll have to be able to take the heat whilst being in the kitchen...


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I'm sorry, but you know you're committed to a 'Rada spawn xD


Only if you take the Bubble Blowing Bear off my hands for a few days  A friend of mine has an amline bitch she wanted to show. She was brand new to showing, and the claws and fangs of the show world made her decide conformation wasn't for her. Shameful.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Anyone can regurgitate terms and things they hear around dog shows. That does not develop an eye or understanding. Your information is as only as good as your instructors. The best way to learn is to look at the dogs in person and read the judge critiques on them. They are qualified and when you read more than one judge on the same dog it gives you proper insights. If you have a interest n one breed then you go to specialized forums with that breed and learn from the mentors there. Again your learning info is only as good as the person you are choosing to learn from. I thank my background in eventing, mostly dressage, and my art anatomy background in helping me to see behind the false glimpses of dogs online.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Only if you take the Bubble Blowing Bear off my hands for a few days


That's it, Auz's name is no longer Auz. From now on, I'm calling him Bubble Bear. I wonder if Bubble Bear will clean Stinkybear?



> A friend of mine has an amline bitch she wanted to show. She was brand new to showing, and the claws and fangs of the show world made her decide conformation wasn't for her. Shameful.


If she would hang out with me, she'd have a grand ol' time. The midwest IS very cutthroat though, no joke.



> They are qualified and when you read more than one judge on the same dog it gives you proper insights.


Yes and no. Judges are human, and thus, are subject to bias. And who THEY learned from is just as important.

There are judges in American dogs that I would not exhibit my bitch to. I don't have their kind of bitch. Some like more coat, others want more rib, others are foot nazis, and still others are tooth nazis. There are breeder judges out there that I don't feel know movement or what a good front is. 

There are many people that think Mirada's front is GORGEOUS. There are just as many that likely think she couldn't move her way out of a sack.

That's the subjective nature of showing dogs, and the consequences of people being individuals, and 5 people seeing the SAME dog 5 different ways.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Anyone can regurgitate terms and things they hear around dog shows. That does not develop an eye or understanding. Your information is as only as good as your instructors. The best way to learn is to look at the dogs in person and read the judge critiques on them. They are qualified and when you read more than one judge on the same dog it gives you proper insights. If you have a interest n one breed then you go to specialized forums with that breed and learn from the mentors there. Again your learning info is only as good as the person you are choosing to learn from. I thank my background in eventing, mostly dressage, and my art anatomy background in helping me to see behind the false glimpses of dogs online.


Are you suggesting that what I see in these pictures (roach backs, uneven gait, etc) is somehow altered, thus giving a false perception of these breeding dogs?


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> You know I stayed away from that breed my bitch pick the stud thread thing you have going without disrespecting you, I should have known I could not expect the same maturity in return. Who are the 12 year olds?


Yvonne, may I please know what your intention WAS in making this thread? If you weren't looking to start a discussion, why post at all? Exactly what did Xeph say that offended you, what did you find "disrespectful"?

I like this forum, and I enjoy discussions and debates. Would it be better if we all had a mutual agreement to not post differing opinions? "German Dogs: American Dog Owners Need Not Defile This Thread"? Would that be the acceptable alternative? Not everyone on this board has to like everyone else at a personal level, but that doesn't mean we can't have civil discussions without turning it to a thread about personal vendettas. 

And honestly, saying "that dog has a roached back" is not much different from saying "that dog is a Mexican Hairless, and I don't care much for Xolos". Or "that dog is a long stock coat, you can't show long coated German Shepherds in AKC conformation, and I prefer stock or plush coats", or "WOAH! That dog is oversized!".


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I dont see why german shepherd people or any dog people on a normal dog forum cant answer some of the same questions, as long as one walks away with the understanding that that information is only the information of a particular person and is not the be all end all?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well, to be candid, I'm perfectly relaxed, and happy to do just that. I'm only discussing dogs, and answering questions as they come.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yvonne said:


> Anyone can regurgitate terms and things they hear around dog shows. That does not develop an eye or understanding. Your information is as only as good as your instructors. The best way to learn is to look at the dogs in person and read the judge critiques on them. They are qualified and when you read more than one judge on the same dog it gives you proper insights. If you have a interest n one breed then you go to specialized forums with that breed and learn from the mentors there. Again your learning info is only as good as the person you are choosing to learn from. I thank my background in eventing, mostly dressage, and my art anatomy background in helping me to see behind the false glimpses of dogs online.


Okay so... no one on an all dog forum knows what they're talking about? There's not even a specialized forum for my breed to begin with. I am not saying it's like going to shows in person or talking to a judge or handler/breeder and having them evaluate your dog but there is certainly some knowledge to be gained by discussing on forums IF the parties involved have an interest in real learning. On the papillon thread we've had some great discussions without any kind of negative response like this. People have pointed out what they like and don't like on my dogs (especially my champion show dog) and it's OKAY. I know several people aren't that fond of the type on my show dog and that's just fine... Different opinions aren't a BAD thing. Preferring different types isn't a BAD thing either.


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I have been around this forum enough to know that we don't all agree, but that doesn't mean we have to get cattty. Xeph did say nice things about each and every German line dog she posted--and also pointed out the faults in her own. In a GSD conformation thread, it seems odd that we aren't allowed to talk about GSD conformation. (The first rule of GSD conformation is that you don't talk about GSD conformation?)

You may have experience, but I am pretty sure you don't know everything. How do I know that? Because I have 11 years experience teaching high school (same subject and grade level all 11 years) and I am learning new things each day--usually from the teachers around me...sometimes the kids. I am open, I listen, and I learn things. It is how we grow.

The German line dogs did have a more hunched back than American line dogs I have seen. No, I am not an expert. I don't claim to be, but I can see the difference with my own two eyes.

You can not like that if you want. I am not attacking the dogs, or the owners, or the German line, or your opinion of the dogs. I am simply saying that the backs are roached/hunched from what I can see. That doesn't take away from the fact that they are lovely dogs. 

I just don't understand why this has to become so personal or why you feel the need to get so defensive. No one went after you--you went after everyone else who disagreed with you.

I also would like to echo what Miranda said--why was the curve important?


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Lol me either (well I mean I had a 'GSD' in the past but you know what I mean...)
> 
> I am glad the papillon conformation threads tend to go a little more... civil.


Funny, I had a "GSD" as a kid too. Generic farm collie type dog really

And yeah I think the only ones that get close to being as heated are BC threads, but we hardly have enough BC people here to see that, thankfully...


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Are papillons separated into five different types of that breed because people cant work together for the standard? I get it am line people dont like our toplines... why keep beating it into the ground? Is that making for a discussion about the videos I posted? Is repeatedly asking for photos I answered about the topic of this thread? Is it to much to expect that the same people do not continually come in when I am trying to have a good discussion on my breed and about videos I found with which I was trying to help others see my breed and mess about in it? Is it to much to have asked the mod i asked to keep this on track to do so? This was an honest to goodness thread to be shared and to discuss like adults that love gsds and it downgraded when repeatedly people were asking me to provide them photos of my dogs to which they could say omg look at that topline on my dogs like they do these professionals and their proven titled dogs. I have put those that irritate me on ignore and if anyone wishes to still discuss this with me I welcome it.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Shaina said:


> Funny, I had a "GSD" as a kid too. Generic farm collie type dog really
> 
> And yeah I think the only ones that get close to being as heated are BC threads, but we hardly have enough BC people here to see that, thankfully...


Just don't ask about BC conformation on the _other_ forum.  

BC people are argumentative in a slightly different way. They'd just be saying there is no BC conformation, lol.



Yvonne said:


> *Are papillons separated into five different types of that breed because people cant work together for the standard? *I get it am line people dont like our toplines... why keep beating it into the ground? Is that making for a discussion about the videos I posted? Is repeatedly asking for photos I answered about the topic of this thread? Is it to much to expect that the same people do not continually come in when I am trying to have a good discussion on my breed and about videos I found with which I was trying to help others see my breed and mess about in it? Is it to much to have asked the mod i asked to keep this on track to do so? This was an honest to goodness thread to be shared and to discuss like adults that love gsds and it downgraded when repeatedly people were asking me to provide them photos of my dogs to which they could say omg look at that topline on my dogs like they do these professionals and their proven titled dogs. I have put those that irritate me on ignore and if anyone wishes to still discuss this with me I welcome it.


Thankfully no and I would like to keep it that way. I was just pointing out that people can talk about structure and type without insulting individual dogs or getting offended by people pointing out what they perceive as faults in an individual dog. In turn that can be an enlightening and educational discussion.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Is it to much to expect that the same people do not continually come in when I am trying to have a good discussion on my breed and about videos I found with which I was trying to help others see my breed and mess about in it?


What? Because YOU are the ONLY person with information on the GSD breed? Because you're the ONLY person that owns GSDs on this board? The reason we ASKED for more pictures (and I DID acknowledge that you were taking Ulf to a show and were expecting to get pictures) was so more information COULD be gained. Because it's good to see multiple dogs of the same lines and of varying to garner an understanding of structure.

That's why I also posted pictures of Mirada, for people to further see structure, and how all the parts of the dog work together when they're gaiting, as well as how a dog can be distorted due to handler interference.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Geeze people they are just bathing beauty contests of little importance to real working dog enthusiasts. Now you can all unite and pick on me and leave the pretty pictures alone.:wave:


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I dont know if im on the ignore list but, being that i admittedly dont know much about german conform., would you mind explaining what makes their movement that way effective? And my question before, why the curvature? why do the dogs need to be stronger against downward pressure?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Xeph said:


> What? Because YOU are the ONLY person with information on the GSD breed? Because you're the ONLY person that owns GSDs on this board? The reason we ASKED for more pictures (and I DID acknowledge that you were taking Ulf to a show and were expecting to get pictures) was so more information COULD be gained. Because it's good to see multiple dogs of the same lines and of varying to garner an understanding of structure.
> 
> That's why I also posted pictures of Mirada, for people to further see structure, and how all the parts of the dog work together when they're gaiting, as well as how a dog can be distorted due to handler interference.


Yea I actually really like the types of discussions where people are comparing different dogs' structures, how they are the same and different, their strong and weak points, and especially how structure affects movement. It's so fascinating, and unfortunate that it is perceived negatively.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Can we have a thread where we judge the confirmation and gait of DF posters?


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yvonne said:


> It is an insult to critique people's dogs without their permission on a public forum and say things about them like that especially when it is not true.


 
Then don't post them in a "public" (actually this forum is PRIVATELY owned) forum. Here they will be critiqued and not everyone seeing them will understand the dynamics of motion or how different gates can affect what the dog looks like as it moves.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Laurelin, I have no qualms talking about it with you. There is a difference in movement and conformation in the german and am lines and this was not meant to be about that. I wanted to discuss the videos posted as I thought them well done and informative. I did not make them. To compare the two kinds of gsd as am line and german showline is sadly apples and oranges in a breed that is supposed to be one type. It also splinters off to the working line and those discussions get heated as well. I can only choose the one that is for me and with a background in using k9 partners in everyday function but also thinking that proper structure is important the choice for me is the German showline. I will not make excuses for things my dog is unable to do that should be easy and expected of it in it's breed and condone the furthering of that type breeding when this is a working breed. My dogs work foremost, conformation is the bonus. I will not support conformation that cannot any longer do the work.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Geeze people they are just bathing beauty contests of little importance to real working dog enthusiasts. Now you can all unite and pick on me and leave the pretty pictures alone.:wave:


ROFL, we all know you're tough enough to take it (actually REVEL in it) too.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> My dogs work foremost, conformation is the bonus. I will not support conformation that cannot any longer do the work.


It's no different here.


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> I get it am line people dont like our toplines... why keep beating it into the ground? Is that making for a discussion about the videos I posted? Is repeatedly asking for photos I answered about the topic of this thread?


For the record, I'm not an Am line person  I'm a German Shepherd Dog person. 

(If we're getting technical, though, I'm more a German line person than I am an Am line person...) 

Yvonne, I don't think anyone's intentionally beating it to the ground. Either 1) they are not familiar with German Shepherd conformation and honestly, honestly curious, because it is so different than that of other breeds (Doberman Pinschers, Rottweilers, etc.) or 2) they are sharing a picture to illustrate one point, but wanted to clarify that they do not like the overall dog. For example, if I were talking about nice paws on a dog, and posted a picture of a German Shepherd with good paws, I would probably clarify, for the benefit of others, that I am NOT, in fact, saying that I like the dog itself, just the paws. Thus, I will point out the good and bad of the dog in my own opinion, to avoid confusion. I may like the paws, but I do not believe that to be a good example of the breed.



Yvonne said:


> Is it to much to expect that the same people do not continually come in when I am trying to have a good discussion on my breed and about videos I found with which I was trying to help others see my breed and mess about in it? Is it to much to have asked the mod i asked to keep this on track to do so? This was an honest to goodness thread to be shared and to discuss like adults that love gsds and it downgraded when repeatedly people were asking me to provide them photos of my dogs to which they could say omg look at that topline on my dogs like they do these professionals and their proven titled dogs.


Yvonne, the people who are in this thread are DogForums members. The same people who participate in discussions in almost every thread! 

And it may be "your" breed, but others are allowed to consider it "theirs" as well  As a German Shepherd "person" I am naturally more inclined to click on and participate in threads related to the breed. What fault is there to find in that? I love the breed as well and learn a great deal from a good discussion. And for the record, I may have missed it, but I don't believe anyone of the regular members you are noticing have commented on your dogs' toplines. 



Yvonne said:


> I have put those that irritate me on ignore and if anyone wishes to still discuss this with me I welcome it.


Well, if you don't answer my questions, I guess I'll know why


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*sings loudly* So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye.
There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys.
There's only you and me and we just disagree.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Note to self: Never get a GSD.


I second that note. Golly Geez this bickering is ridiculous.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> ROFL, we all know you're tough enough to take it (actually REVEL in it) too.


Thank you Carla, I thought for sure somebody would jump on me. These confirmation people are mean and I'm gonna runaway now.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

contrary to rumor I don't bite, I swear!


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Thank you Carla, I thought for sure somebody would jump on me. These confirmation people are mean and I'm gonna runaway now.


Trust me, they're not as bad as retail customers!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*sighs* It is disappointing when what could have been a productive thread is dead because 99% of the participants are on ignore.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Ignorance is bliss, right?

She's got substandard dogs and can't take the heat. Not my problem.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh and Yvonne, from your own mouth on posting pics in this forum.



Yvonne said:


> when you display online you are opening for discussion





Yvonne said:


> and like me you are definitely entitled to your opinion, that is what makes a forum. The poster often critiques pics and posts and adverts as well so I assumed her stuff was up for comment when posted publicly.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The latter quote apparently only goes ONE way :-/


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Oh and Yvonne, from your own mouth on posting pics in this forum.


Now we got a situation


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Now we got a situation


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

This is the hind end of an animal bred & built for herding, quick turns & bursts of speed. And this is what I've known for 25 years. 









Hence the reason I have such a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that this hind end was built for the same type of thing.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

That's Karizma's Nicaragua "Neeko". I hate that picture of him because he looks so extreme. Having seen many of his puppies, he's an excellent producer, and produces more moderate animals when moderate bitches are brought to him. Something important though, is to recognize when a dog has a structural issue, and when there's an issue because of the way the handler set up the dog.

I can make Strauss look extreme if I really want to, and fool people that don't know what they're looking at. I can make Mirada look really extreme or really moderate, and fool people that don't know what they're looking at. Neeko has beautiful breed type, and while he's got more rear than I like, he doesn't have as much rear as the picture makes you believe.

His length of body creates the appearance of a more extreme dog (read, because he is so long, his topline is even more dramatic than it would be if he were shorter in body).


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


>


LOL You have one upped me.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

BTW for clarification, Neeko IS an extreme dog...that just makes it appear even more so, which I don't care for. He has a very long upper thigh, but the lower thigh is much shorter.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> Hence the reason I have such a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that this hind end was built for the same type of thing.


I have seen worse than that, but I can see what Xeph is saying about it not being a good photo.


----------



## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Xeph said:


> BTW for clarification, Neeko IS an extreme dog...that just makes it appear even more so, which I don't care for. He has a very long upper thigh, but the lower thigh is much shorter.


Is his chest incorrect, or is that just the way he's stacked? To my untrained eyeball, he seems a little disproportionate.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

CoverTune said:


> This is the hind end of an animal bred & built for herding, quick turns & bursts of speed. And this is what I've known for 25 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

The stack on that dog makes him look MUCH more extreame than he is. Here is a GSD herding, watch how it moves and perhaps you'll see what we mean.





 




 
And this shows the 'gate' for a GSD in slow motion

This"]


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Is his chest incorrect, or is that just the way he's stacked? To my untrained eyeball, he seems a little disproportionate.


His chest is correct (the dog should have a prominent prosternum) to the best of my knowledge, but the angle of the photo makes things seem funky. The problem with GSDs is that a dog can appear to have a deep chest (from the side, the depth is where the bottom of the chest stops) but then you look at the dog from the front, and the dog "disappears" (read, the dog is very narrow and possibly slab sided).


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

So, is my uninformed questions Irritatiing enough to get me ignored? If so can someone answer me about what I asked about Ulf? Cause I really wanted to know the answer lol.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Wow this thread sure did grow since the last time I was here. Just wanted to comment on that Ronaldo picture you posted. That is a nice looking dog, I love his bone and he seems to have a really nice head. He's got a VERY moderate topline for a germanline dog which is nice. And I find it refreashing to see a nice german dog with good layback whose withers also have nice hieght. If I had to nit pick I'de say I would like to see better pasterns, I would also like to see more stacked photos of him if you have any I can't quite get a good feel of his rear in the shot you posted. 

Also do you have anymore pics of your puppy, I'm interested to see how he matures.

(now excuse me while I go back and read this ENTIRE thread, cause it's late and I can't sleep lol)


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Keechak,

I am on my laptop these days as my personal desktop bit the dust. I will take some time tomorrow to look at what I have on external storage for you. I can however can guess there is probably not much in the way of stacked photos that were not natural stacks and Ulf hit 10 months old on the 30th and I have been way to busy setting up arrangements for the farm we are preparing to move to and preparing for the sieger that I have not taken any recent pics. When we train for ring everyone helping has their job be it gaiting my other gsds to give him a better feel for reality in the ring or double handling. I will look for a post I did fairly recently that showed him in video gaiting naturally on this forum. 

Ronaldo is a joy I would not have wanted to miss in my life. He is an amazing dog and it took almost three years to get him home lol. He is a joy to watch in movement. His temperament is the best I have ever enjoyed. He is a dog that trains well and must have a firm handler that will make him respect them and then there is nothing he would not do for them. At eight he is healthy and sound well except for his toe atm lol I am sad to have had to pull him from the show as I know he hates retirement and would have loved being out there again. 

Here are a couple casual pics of Ronaldo:





he looked funny next to the mini had to grab it lol












Some links of Ulf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEfQ30UvM5E

Ulf with his ball frustrated with herding it and my favorite part is at the end when it went into the bushes so he began ripping them up to get to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P56K-Eo0Oog

He is just turned nine months old in these.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

This is an am line german shepherd not German showline, but the horse you posted is gorgeous! 

I prefer stronger bone and sturdier build in My gsds like this one of my pups leg bones at only nine months old:

I also do not care for weak rears or extreme angles, or dragging hocks, overly long flexible pasterns. I like a substantial male that looks like a male. I like a female to still have bone and have a strong head shape as well like my bitch does:

***BY CSHELLENBERGER***

From Dog Forum Rules: Please Read


> We ask that all pictures posted be kept to a size no larger than 620x460.


Pictures that are too large will be removed

***Thank You***


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

CoverTune said:


> This is the hind end of an animal bred & built for herding, quick turns & bursts of speed. And this is what I've known for 25 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Covertune I don't think I've EVER seen an american line dog in person that "looked" as extreme as that dog does in *that* photo. But I don't think compairing dogs to horses is really a good way to go about it. Since the american line dog you posted has a great topline I assume you have issue with how low hisrear is, and keep in mind German shepherds are not the only breed whos rear end drops when they are stacked, how about Irish Setters 









This is another breed that calls for a well angled rear, which when stacked drops the hindquarters a bit.



Yvonne said:


> Keechak,
> 
> I am on my laptop these days as my personal desktop bit the dust. I will take some time tomorrow to look at what I have on external storage for you. I can however can guess there is probably not much in the way of stacked photos that were not natural stacks and Ulf hit 10 months old on the 30th and I have been way to busy setting up arrangements for the farm we are preparing to move to and preparing for the sieger that I have not taken any recent pics. When we train for ring everyone helping has their job be it gaiting my other gsds to give him a better feel for reality in the ring or double handling. I will look for a post I did fairly recently that showed him in video gaiting naturally on this forum.
> 
> ...


This picture reafirms that he is a very nice looking dog! to critique (for my own benefit) croup looks a tad steep which is what I thought I saw in the first photo but wasn't sure, my male aussie also has a bit of a steep croup. Ronaldo just has a great look about him, beautiful dog.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I cannot look at the vids but I did look at the stills. I have been off (GASP!) actually helping sort sheep yesterday for culling and shearing. 

First of all.. working backward, the horse above is a Quarterhorse that is light in bone and tied in below the knee. His hind leg is overly straight. He may have titles up the ying yang but he really has flaws that would steer me to a different stud if I was looking at him for breeding. His body is very nice.. but you got to ride the legs and tops may come but bottoms never.

Going back further to the begining or second page of the thread, there were photos (stills) of dogs trotting. Does anyone here know how to tell if a dog is driving off its rear end and NOT pulling (that I will discuss later)? If you look carefully at the photos where the dogs are not appearing to be 'banana backed' (note I did say _appearing_) you will see the the hind foot is striking, or nearly striking, the ground and the fore foot is still very much air born. Hind foot striking the ground FIRST with the hind foot FLAT shows driving off the hind leg. THAT shows the dog is working off his hind end and is not forehand heavy. It is one of the things you look for in Dressage Horses who need to work off their hind quarters (and shift their weight to the rear). At the extended trot you want to see the hind foot FLATLY strike the ground first.. 

Now, there are photos of an American Line dog (Mirada I think is the example) and one or two of German Line dogs trotting with what appears to be a "roached" back. In all reality, the backs are not roached. What the dogs are doing is PULLING. When A dog is pulling, it brings its hind legs further under to DRIVE forward against the collar which is resisting his forward movement and becaue the collar resists the back curves upward (just physics really). 

A dog's spine (going back to the drawings) is an S shaped mechanisim and words very much like a suspension bridge (phyisics here). When the dog brings his hind legs under him, he also tucks his belly UP and must curve his back in an upward arch. This is why, when you judge conformation, you stand the dog. The image of the German dog who was previously 'bananabacked' when pulling is now standing and shows a slight upward arch in the topline. The dog is not incorrect. 

If you look again at the skeletal structure of the spine, you will see the S curve. An absolutely STRAIGHT and FLAT back is actually weaker structurally than a slightly upward curving back (again, physics). The overly straight back is just as structurally unsound as an overly roached back because the spine of the dog is not designed to be a straight structure. It is designed to be elastic and have the ability to accordian the dog in response to requests for forward (or sideways) movement. Overly roached is weak because it also takes away from the dogs ability to work off his hind quarters. 

Now... we get to the stacked photos of dogs. If you want to win an American Beauty Contest (stealing from WVasko here.. so I may be in danger) you will breed for a flat back. This will win in the show ring but it is NOT in the best interest of the dog's structure. It does not mean the dog cannot work and it does not mean the dog is a bad dog. It means the dog is not as well designed structurally to do the work it was intended to do at its origin (herding). A flat backed dog simply cannot (by the plaws of physics) draw its hind legs under and drive as well as a dog that is less flat. This dog will tire if required to trot all day trending sheep. 

That being said, drawing the dog's head UP as is common in the AKC ring for a stacked GSD will act to HOLLW a dog's back and can make a dog APPEAR overly straight backed. Because the AKC ring WANTS to see an overly straight line when the dog is stacked, that is one way to acheive it (along with breeding for a straighter back which, IMO is not in the best interest of the dog or the breed.. but that is my opinion). 

If you go back to horses, you want a horse to round his back and work off his hind quarters. It takes YEARS of training to actually get this because a horse is not as flexible as a dog. The WAY to get this is to trot the horse up hills (lengthens the top line and strengthens the abdominals) and to start the horse in a long low frame.. gradually working to get the horse to shift his weight off his forehand and to his rear legs. Long time elder dressage horses (lte teens early 20's) are very good at this.. and often develop bone spavins in their hocks because of it (as do drft horses who must pull). 

In humans, if you have a bad back you actually do something similar in Physical Therapy.. building abominal muscles and lengthening and stretching your back (and this is why you bend your knees when you lift.. use your legs and abominal muscles to lift and NOT your back). 

Anyway.. carry on. I will look at the vids on Monday.

I just looked back again at the first photos and if you look at the dogs trotting (including Mirada) you will notice that all the dogs have at least a slight upward curve in thier back. They need to have that in order to trot. 

I also note that Mirada does not strike the ground flat behind. Her toes are pointed up and the pad of her foot to the inside and her hock is low to the ground. She is 14 months old so this may change, but at this point it is not a strong gait (loose.. but Xeph did say she was a bit loose). The hind foot strike may also be indicative of too much angulation. 

In looking at the photo of Karizma's Nicaragua "Neeko" and you will see that his back is slightly curved as well. It needs to be. 

Rinaldo is a stong looking dog. He does have a croup that drops off a bit I believe but that is common in herding lines. Too flat a croup is also not truly normal spine construction. Again, the spine is an S shaped structure that starts at the first atlas behind the skull and ends at the tip of the tail. Extreme curves are as bad as too little curve from a physics and strutrual POV.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Yea I actually really like the types of discussions where people are comparing different dogs' structures, how they are the same and different, their strong and weak points, and especially how structure affects movement. It's so fascinating, and unfortunate that it is perceived negatively.


I also find it interesting that, according to the standard, a good german show lines dog AND a good DDR dog AND a good Czech dog AND a good amline dog are all so different, _yet perfectly correct_. (Emphasis on the "good", because there are certainly bad specimens out there).


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I also find it interesting that, according to the standard, a good german show lines dog AND a good DDR dog AND a good Czech dog AND a good amline dog are all so different, _yet perfectly correct_.


Depends on how you look at it. Assume each population is equal...so for every German Shepherd Dog, 75% of GSD people think he's crap and 25% may possibly like him. Not good odds


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Shaina said:


> Depends on how you look at it. Assume each population is equal...so for every German Shepherd Dog, 75% of GSD people think he's crap and 25% may possibly like him. Not good odds


Very true, but only if you're reading the standard objectively  I've had people comment on Auz's looks in a good manner, and others say he's crap. Shrug. 
I also had the owner of some very snotty papillons look at Dude like he was a pile of garbage, when Dude was trotting along beside me, every inch of his body wagging because he was happy to meet people/be there. I'd hate to see their faces if they ever saw Tag, the XXL pap xD


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

My boston is not a correct dog. This does not mean I think less of him or love him any less as he is a rescue and poor bred from a puppy mill. I believe that good purebreds should be encouraged and bred and ones that do not make the cut should not be. I paid 3500 as pick of litter show prospect for my bitch and she has been shown but i chose to never let her be bred even though she is not terrible but I feel there are so many better than her. I will not support anything but the best being bred in my breed personally and love any and all dogs no matter their background or looks. I support showing and working and I also support rescues through donating my art for auctions, transport, fostering, and yes even adoption into our family. I believe anyone that is ethical and into showing and supporting the best bred dogs should also help and love the ones that are not. I am not a dog snob like people seem to think. I just do not support breeding into my breed dogs that I feel weaken the breed instead of adding to it important genetic content. If the breed is not improved breeding a particular dog on the whole not just improving a litter then I feel it should not be bred. Improving just one litter is easy and I see it as a downfall.



wow didn't realize until now almost all the photos I posted of Ronaldo and Ulf are gone. I did not know they could not be posted due to size they were as they have been posted from other threads without issue from before.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There are quite a few pictures I could show of dogs much more extreme than Neeko, that is definitely for sure. I like the substance I see, however, I've not been able to see this dog in person. I have seen many of his progeny though.

And while a *slight* curvature of the spine is forgivable(ish), the standard does call for a *straight* back. A curve is a curve and not correct.



> I also note that Mirada does not strike the ground flat behind.


She shouldn't. The dog should gait off the pads of the foot, NOT the hock. To gait off the hock is a serious fault of movement. Feet SHOULD travel as close to the ground as possible, without dragging toes. I will also admit that they ONLY picture of Mogwai where I can see a curve in her spine is the one where she's working too hard. Throwing herself into the collar results in overdrive in the rear, and hello hunchie. That, however, does not change the fact that her back is in fact straight when standing, where others maintain that curvature in the spine when they're stacked. Their roaching is much more extreme when in motion, yes, but that curve doesn't go away once they stop pulling.



> (loose.. but Xeph did say she was a bit loose)


While she may tighten up a little more, chances are she'll always be loose. Gets that from her mama. I've never been a fan of her ligamentation, and it's in my top 5 "Things to Fix".



> the pad of her foot to the inside


Not entirely sure what you mean by this, but if it's what I THINK you mean, this is not incorrect. Due to the overreach in the rear the breed should have, the foot will move inside and outside of the forefoot in an alternating fashion.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Mirada's topline in the still from the show keeps being upheld in this thread as the shining example then why has it been edited? The bright white line along only the topline drew my attention yesterday but I did not blow it up for a closer look until today.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

LMAO! That topline has NOT been touched! It's a STILL from the VIDEO! Nothing on her has been futzed with.

Heck, look at all the "noise" around her. That's the excellent quality you get with a Kodak Easy Share Point & Shoot camera with a recording function, lol


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CoverTune said:


> This is the hind end of an animal bred & built for herding, quick turns & bursts of speed. And this is what I've known for 25 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



a horse is an ungulate and a dog is digigrade. there's also the size difference and a few other factors related to morphology that make the physics of doing the same action different in the different species. 

i dunno...just kind of stange example to me i guess.



Xeph said:


> LMAO! That topline has NOT been touched! It's a STILL from the VIDEO! Nothing on her has been futzed with.
> 
> Heck, look at all the "noise" around her. That's the excellent quality you get with a Kodak Easy Share Point & Shoot camera with a recording function, lol


also, am i correct in this..that pic looks like there was some kind of fence or something in the way......not to mention the lighting....


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> also, am i correct in this..that pic looks like there was some kind of fence or something in the way......not to mention the lighting....


Yeah, the red blur in the background is the fence, the grey is matting, and the lighting was awful, lol. You were in the building, you saw it, it was pretty crappy xD


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Yes the lighting in the in the Raleigh building was crap. Specially back in ring 13, where only bits and pieces of the ring were lit.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Yeah, the red blur in the background is the fence, the grey is matting, and the lighting was awful, lol. You were in the building, you saw it, it was pretty crappy xD


yeah...picture taking was not really easy to do..i got like ONE pic that even remotely looks like a dog lol...


----------



## Skeeski (Feb 4, 2007)

I love, and am learning so much from this thread. Have a ginormous fire hydrant <3 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Hell, Mirada barely looks like a dog, LOL! We're both blurry in it!

OMG Skeeski you win an internet!! LOL!!!!!


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

One of the weim judges, finally had us, after we had went around the ring, stop at the numbers as he could not see the dogs anywhere else, as it was dark, the numbers were about the only spot well lit.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> the numbers were about the only spot well lit.


But we got MATS!


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Elana that is an awesome explanation of what I was pointing out about the difference in a structure depending on where the dog is powering from thank you.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> But we got MATS!


Yes that is true.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

With the hind foot striking the ground flat I was referring to no rotation side to side as the foot is reaching forward to strike the ground. In the images of Mirada, the dog is rotating her foot side to side (actually curling it to the inside) prior to the strike. She also has her toes elevated a bit more than I would like to see, but again, at 14 months that may tighten up. 

As to the straightness.. if you put a straight edge on the images of her trotting, including the blown up image Yvonne posted, you will see she has a slight (not huge but there) upward curver. If she did not have this, she would trot in a wooden manner with no spring in her step (and she does have spring). 

No, the dog is not supposed to work off her hocks (as in landing on them etc.) tho by driving forward the hocks do need to supple and able to mulitply the force as it is transferred to the ground in the strike. This is the energy transferrance that allows for the next stride and the push forard. In fact, at no point in the trot stride should the hind foot be higher than the hock. 

The hind lieg of the dog is actually a modified spiral construction (as is the hind leg of the horse). The spiral in the dog is more pronounced by angualtion from the foot to the hip (looking from the rear) but in the dog there is less need for the hind toes to point oputward as they do in the horse. In the horse, the hind lege is straight (looking from behind at the horse's tail) if the toes point out slightly which allow for the spiral construction and for the stifle to clear the belly. 

In the dog there is also a spiral that varies between breeds depending on how the dog was bred (like for what job). A dog that does a lot of jumping has a different spiral contrstuction than one that does a lot of trotting. The same, as initially mentioned, is true for the horse. 

It is interesting to note that a trotting horse (pulling a sulky) has a check rein on that keeps the horse's hed unnaturally high. This prevents the horse from breaking into a gallop (tho the horse is bred to trot or pace). The unnatural head carriage builds muscle on the underside of the horse's neck and builds muscles along the horse's top line. When this horse is retired from racing and converted to riding it can take two years to reduce the muscles built under harness and build the exact opposite muscles for riding (Dr. Deb Bennett, PhD has a series of books on the physics of the horse and has written numerous articles on the retraining of off track standardbreds for riding). 

When a dog is forced to trot head high (and I am NOT saying anyone here is doing this, tho we HAVE seen it I am sure) the dog is actually forced to hollow his back. This can cause the back muscles to contract and the underside of the neck muscles to increase in size much like the standardbred race horse. In the dog, it will artificially force the dog to shift his weight to the rear and flip his front toes up (something I HAVE seen in the AKC Breed Ring). The issue with this is that the driving behind it creates is also artificial. 

If you REALLY want to see a dog drive from behind, it is best to see him doing and extended trot off leash while focused on something. You will see it with GSD's who herd. You will see it in the yard. 

Animal movement and conformation is really an interesting topic.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Elana, your last point is WHY I posted this video, it shows a pretty decent, natural gate. I just WISH it were in English as it gives a little background to the movement of the dog ( I understand only a limited amount of German). It's something I think anyone who enjoys watching Gaited horses will understand.



cshellenberger said:


> And this shows the 'gate' for a GSD in slow motion
> 
> This"]


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> She also has her toes elevated a bit more than I would like to see, but again, at 14 months that may tighten up.


Just to be clear, the FIRST photos posted are her at 11 months. And yes, I know what you mean now that you've explained. We refer to it as "toeing in". She doesn't do it at the walk, but she will at times when she is at the trot (though it has decreased). She's got a bit too much rear for my liking, although she's the most moderate of her litter.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have seen the video Carla and it is a good one (cannot revisit it today on dial up). 

I just wanted to add one physics thing I forgot to. The REASON for a spiral construction on the hind leg of a dog is that the spiral is the same construction as a spring. One of the best examples of spiral construction in a hind leg on a dog is the APBT (a good one). It is one (of many) reason they are good weight pullers. 

The front legs are largely support structures. They also need to be able to move freely to support the hind leg drive (and at the trot must move in unison to the hindleg so the movement is nto choppy). 

To get an adequate front leg movement in the GSD, the front leg angle between the scapula (shoulder blade) and Ulna (upper arm bone.. I think is the Ulna) has to be similar to the angle at the stifle in the hind leg. 

I really got to go.. an apt. to meet someone to train our dogs for Open Obedience. I will get back to this later.

Again, I am not writing any of this to knock anyone's dog. Just discussing how animals move with the examples given. 

L8ter!!!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Oh! I forgot to address Mirada's follow through in the rear. She does tend to kick up a bit at faster speeds. A steep croup will cause that.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Skeeski said:


> I love, and am learning so much from this thread. Have a ginormous fire hydrant <3
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us



WHOA

That's awesome!



Elana55 said:


> Animal movement and conformation is really an interesting topic.


It is. I know this all is oriented around GSDs but I've been trying to watch Wally move, find what his natural gait is (it's pretty fast!) and when I get him to run, I try to see how he gets that quick acceleration from zero to nearly full speed, and all that. Probably don't know what I'm looking at, but it's fascinating.


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I believe it was Elana who started the equine-canine comparison.. and the photos I posted were not intended as great breed examples, I literally picked out the horse with the biggest hind end, and the dog with the "smallest" hind end, simply to illustrate my point. 



cshellenberger said:


> Elana, your last point is WHY I posted this video, it shows a pretty decent, natural gate. I just WISH it were in English as it gives a little background to the movement of the dog ( I understand only a limited amount of German). It's something I think anyone who enjoys watching Gaited horses will understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Hmm, if you search GSD gate on YouTube it should come up.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I literally picked out the horse with the biggest hind end, and the dog with the "smallest" hind end, simply to illustrate my point.


This is something I've never understood. What on earth does "small" hind end mean?


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Xeph said:


> This is something I've never understood. What on earth does "small" hind end mean?


Really? You don't see the difference between the huge, round, muscled hindquarters on the QH, and the comparatively flat hindquarters on the GSD?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You can't compare the hindquarters of dog to the hindquarters of a horse. The muscling is not at all the same. It is admittedly something that bothers me when people compare dogs to horses. I get the point trying to be made....but a dog is not a horse.

The GSD has also been set up in a manner that doesn't display what his muscling may actually BE either. My dogs are in excellent condition, and you can see it when they're stacked properly, but they do not have wild bulging muscles, because they are not meant to.

If you look at both dogs on this page, both are in EXCELLENT physical condition, but they are not exhibiting bulging muscles. You can see definition as they are well toned, but super muscly they are not meant to be.
http://talimargermanshepherds.com/ourboys.html

Francesco Anrebri, a dog in TOP physical condition. His father, Frankie, is also amazing. They are at the top of their line in schutzhund competition, and thus need to be in fabulous condition, but again, they are not super muscly dogs.
http://www.anrebri.cz/PIC/francesco_07.jpg


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Reading all this stuff reinforces a bird dog trainer's discussion years ago about dog movements in general, conclusion was can't explain it, ya just know it when you see it.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Elana said:


> If you look again at the skeletal structure of the spine, you will see the S curve. An absolutely STRAIGHT and FLAT back is actually weaker structurally than a slightly upward curving back (again, physics). The overly straight back is just as structurally unsound as an overly roached back because the spine of the dog is not designed to be a straight structure. It is designed to be elastic and have the ability to accordian the dog in response to requests for forward (or sideways) movement. Overly roached is weak because it also takes away from the dogs ability to work off his hind quarters.


I absolutely agree that I would rather see a roach in the back over a sway back, for all the reasons you mention. Another thing that can contribute to the topline is the musculature of the loin, it can make the topline look more roached or more flat than the spine really is. I would rather see a spine roach over the loin than in the actual back, over the ribcage. 

My question is about straight toplines being less sound than roached ones. Do you mean this specifically to GSDs, with their unique style of herding, or to all breeds in general? 



> In fact, at no point in the trot stride should the hind foot be higher than the hock.


Hock of the leg the foot in on, or the hock of the other leg? If the foot is higher than the same hock, you have a HUGE kicking up problem, or and extremely slipping hock, or something else really and grossly wrong. Or do you mean of the opposite hock, in which case feet are being kicked up too high behind? (Trying to picutre what you're saying)



> If you REALLY want to see a dog drive from behind, it is best to see him doing and extended trot off leash while focused on something. You will see it with GSD's who herd. You will see it in the yard.
> 
> Animal movement and conformation is really an interesting topic.


Quoted for truth! All this talk about wanting dogs in German shows to pull into the collar, which throws a curve into the spine etc, makes it seem like kind of a silly and counterproductive thing. I dislike manhandling in the AKC ring as well, though I don't have very much of an eye for it yet.



Yvonne said:


> i chose to never let her be bred even though she is not terrible but I feel there are so many better than her. I will not support anything but the best being bred in my breed personally and love any and all dogs no matter their background or looks. I support showing and working and I also support rescues through donating my art for auctions, transport, fostering, and yes even adoption into our family. I believe anyone that is ethical and into showing and supporting the best bred dogs should also help and love the ones that are not. I am not a dog snob like people seem to think. I just do not support breeding into my breed dogs that I feel weaken the breed instead of adding to it important genetic content. If the breed is not improved breeding a particular dog on the whole not just improving a litter then I feel it should not be bred. Improving just one litter is easy and I see it as a downfall.


Here I disagree, but it is a philosophical difference and also a breed situation difference. I feel that MORE dogs need to be bred, that not just the _best_ have a place in a breeding program. Maybe its because in Tollers (a breed I am starting to think about breeding several years in the future) genetic diversity is very low and the breed does have some issues with autoimmune diseases, but from that perspective I feel that more genetic diversity is a desireable thing. I believe that even more popular and numerous breeds (GSDs, Border Collies, etc) can have a problem with genetic diversity through popular sires.

I also don't think you can really improve an established breed. Like, how would you improve Tollers? They're already the best dog at tolling in ducks, a function that is largely useless these days (although I would love to see a resurgance of it, and when I am fabulously wealthy I am going to build a pond that is structured for traditional tolling). My thoughts today (and they change quite frequently) is that people don't buy members of a breed. They buy a dog for a reason, and I want to breed dogs that will fill a function in acutal people's lives.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Agreed in your breed it would be the opposite. In my breed there are just to many to begin with. I think knowledgeable people need to cross show line and working line to strengthen the genetics but it would take the right dogs and the right breeders to do it not just anyone. It should always be kept strong and not bottleneck the genetics. The gsd is to numerous for that to be an issue. The only ones having an issue is the whites. They only want to breed for masking gene and the ones that do not agree that they are breeding to german shepherd standards that own colors will not breed to them.


I agree with Elana's observations and posts and she puts into words so well.

I will try to get some time to illustrate what I see in the difference that AKC show collars and German show collars cause in the construction of the dogs anatomy because I can not explain it to peoples understanding in words.. Just returned from hiking with my husband and Ulf around the lake. Such gorgeous weather and I have some other things to busy myself with but will try to get to it when I have a moment.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

> The gsd is to numerous for that to be an issue


not exactly true. meaning i dont know if its specifically true or untrue in the case of the GSD...

but the logic in that statement is flawed. the population numbers are ultimately meaningless. it's the numbers and frequencies of alleles and what percentage of the population carries which ones that matter.

ETA: the pop numbers do matter LONG term in the sense that that the more individuals there are carrying a specific allele, the more likely it is to spread...but..anyway...


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I would disagree that there are too many good dogs when it is difficult to actually breed dogs that are unrelated in the near past. Looking at pedigrees of many show dogs, and recently many gsd's, finding a dog that is not linebred within the past 5 generations is difficult. So I would say more genetic diversity IS needed as to not compound genetic issues. Granted if done smart one can do linebreeding well, once you line breed enough throughout the breed everybody is linebred to everybody and you end up with genetic drift taking over due to the finite population.


P.S. "LIKE" to zim


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

You disagree that not all dogs that have won a conformation title/rating should not be bred? Just because a dog has basic criteria and deemed to be above some other dogs they should be automatically bred? I feel it is but one component. I also feel that if you have to work to find a stud to take care of numerous faults then perhaps the breeding should be skipped.

My bitch has low wither, steep croup. She works well. She is not amazing to watch in movement though she is correct. I do not feel the overwhelming need to add her genetics because it would just be another litter of acceptable rather than amazing contribution. Could be part of my logic is believing in the system of breed surveying <kkl1, kkl2> and or also because I do rescue work as well and see the numerous dogs put down because pet homes most times do not or will not properly care for working breeds.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Actually I said nothing of the sort. I said more genetic variation needs to be introduced otherwise you DO get genetic issues. I understand you may want AMAZING dogs, but when you start compound genetic varients by only breeding very very few dogs, you get issues.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Looking at pedigrees of many show dogs, and recently many gsd's, finding a dog that is not linebred within the past 5 generations is difficult.


This is true. In the stud dog thread I mentioned that big sable dog, Ricky. A HUGE sticking point for me with Ricky is that there is NO linebreeding in 5 generations, and it is COMPLETELY free of several dogs that are very very hard to avoid in today's pedigrees.

There would be linebreeding (if I did the counting right) on GV Max 7-6, so you're getting way back there (thank goodness).

And the truth of the matter IS that you need "Good, not the greatest" in order to keep your gene pool open and diverse. "Best to best" is little more than a pipe dream, and is a detrimental thought process.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Yvonne said:


> My bitch has low wither, steep croup. She works well. She is not amazing to watch in movement though she is correct. I do not feel the overwhelming need to add her genetics because it would just be another litter of acceptable rather than amazing contribution. Could be part of my logic is believing in the system of breed surveying <kkl1, kkl2> and or also because I do rescue work as well and see the numerous dogs put down because pet homes most times do not or will not properly care for working breeds.


I'm not trying to say you should or should not breed your dog. I'm saying there is more to breeding dogs than titles and health clearances.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> Mirada's topline in the still from the show keeps being upheld in this thread as the shining example then why has it been edited? The bright white line along only the topline drew my attention yesterday but I did not blow it up for a closer look until today.


I'm not sure if you were poking fun here or not. But to clarify for anyone else, this photo isn't edited, I have seen the video that the photo was taken from and the white highlighting caused by the poor quality lens is seen in ALL frames of the video.


Regarding Elana's post. It is very true that an arching back is more structurally sound than a flat or worst yet a sway back. However the arching of the spin on a *good* american dog is only evident in x-rays, but they DO still have a slight arch that aids in shock absorbtion. I just prefer to call it "straight" from a dog show terminology point of view, as breeds such as the Borzoi are SUPPOSED to be roached.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

WHOO HOO for my POS P&S!


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I agree with you Raegan. But you also cant go around only picking judges that do like your dog and ignoring anything negative just because it hurts your feelings. You cant go around picking parts of accomplishments because your dog will not be able to do the full job and calling it a working dog. The checks and balances to give you proper prospective and are there to keep you on track. I will agree to disagree, these are how I feel about my breed. I believe in a system that was created to give a breed the best qualification to assess their quality and breed worthiness. What good is showing a dog if you are going to circumvent the whole system or only use parts of it?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> What good is showing a dog if you are going to circumvent the whole system or only use parts of it?


It's not. But no system created by humans is fool proof. Heck, there are people that circumvent schutzhund trials too....


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> And the truth of the matter IS that you need "Good, not the greatest" in order to keep your gene pool open and diverse. "Best to best" is little more than a pipe dream, and is a detrimental thought process.


this is correct. best to best is a dangerous path. beause phenotypic superiority per a rigid standard is basically shoving a bunch of "like minded alleles" together as my professors like to joke. and not all "like minded" alleles are friendly and fun.

BALANCE. that is your best path, balancing phenotypic superiority with genetic diversity.


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Xeph said:


> You can't compare the hindquarters of dog to the hindquarters of a horse. The muscling is not at all the same. It is admittedly something that bothers me when people compare dogs to horses. I get the point trying to be made....but a dog is not a horse.


I get that, but what I said is that I can't wrap my brain around it.. I come from a world of horses, not a world of dogs. Visually, the GSDs butt end looks "wrong" to me. That's all I'm trying to say.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

CoverTune said:


> I get that, but what I said is that I can't wrap my brain around it.. I come from a world of horses, not a world of dogs. Visually, the GSDs butt end looks "wrong" to me. That's all I'm trying to say.


do you get the same "heeby geebies" feeling when you look at the Setter I posted? The only difference between the two is that the GSD has one rear foot drawn forwards and under his body while the Setter has both rear feet stacked perpendicular to the ground


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Reading all this stuff reinforces a bird dog trainer's discussion years ago about dog movements in general, conclusion was can't explain it, ya just know it when you see it.



Yeah, you know it when you see it, and if the dog produces the results - it's probably all good from the head to the paws (both training and body working as one)


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> *Reagan W* said: My question is about straight toplines being less sound than roached ones. Do you mean this specifically to GSDs, with their unique style of herding, or to all breeds in general?


I will keep to the GSD discussion here. In all reality there are breeds that do have a level and straigh back and that is sound in those breeds (I am thinking off hand of the Mini Schnauzer and the Miniature Poodle). I am most familiar with the GSD... so not going to go OT. 



> *Reagan W* said: Hock of the leg the foot in on, or the hock of the other leg? If the foot is higher than the same hock, you have a HUGE kicking up problem, or and extremely slipping hock, or something else really and grossly wrong. Or do you mean of the opposite hock, in which case feet are being kicked up too high behind? (Trying to picutre what you're saying)


The leg in motion, NOT the opposite leg. IOW's the leg that is reaching forward and about to land for another push forward... the foot of that leg, including the toes, should not be above the hock. Better if it remains below the hock in all reality.. dogs that get their toes up too high reaching forward tend to "mop the floor" with their rear ends. 



> *Xeph *said: You can't compare the hindquarters of dog to the hindquarters of a horse. The muscling is not at all the same. It is admittedly something that bothers me when people compare dogs to horses. I get the point trying to be made....but a dog is not a horse.


This is true but there are similarities when it comes to efficiency of movement. 

The Thoroughbred race horse has been studied as nauseum to analyze why one horse is faster than another. Why, for instance, was Secreatariat faster than his Stablemate, Riva Ridge? Both horses were similar and both were stakes winners and both were good. The last analysis I read of this was the Secretariat had the most efficient movement. Very little of his kinesis was wasted. What is wasted you say? Well, energy is dissipated thru the horses legs to the ground propelling the horse forward. One of the wasted bits of energy is "retraction time." Retraction time is the time when the foot leaves the ground and goes backward in the air before being brought forward for the next stride for that leg. Retraction time is energy wasted in movement.. the foot has left the ground and is still expending kinesis in the air going backward _but it is propelling nothing.. just dissipating energy_. The faster horses that are similar in other ways to each other have _less retraction time _(we are not comparing the milk wagon horse to the race horse.. but two very similar race horses).

The more efficient moving GSD will be getting his hind foot FORWARD and under him for the next stride instead of wasting energy with the foot in the air 'kicking back' back in the air. Again, remember we are not just trotting for the show judge here.. we are finding the most efficient movement to do an extended trot all day long around the perimeter of sheep in a field.. tending them. 

Other inefficiencies are too short a stride, too upright angulation, over or under angled knees (calf knees or back at the knees), too big a foot, too small a foot.. and the list goes on. 

The point is that the whole dog must be an efficient mover. Atka, my America dog, is a lovely mover.. I would love a horse that moved like her.. but she is too upright behind to be an efficient mover in an all day situation around sheep. Could she do it? Yes.. because she loves it that much.. but she would not do it for the same number of years that a dog with better (more) angulation would. Questa is, at 10 months old, a much faster dog (at both the trot and the gallup) than Atka is. She also covers the ground nicer and has a longer trotting stride.. but she could stand a little more 'rear' at this point. This does not mean more muscling.. but more angulation for a more driving stride.

Of course, as it should be, it does not mean I do not love either dog any less for their movement. It just means I am not so 'in love' that I cannot see faults. That being said, the over all dog counts a LOT. Both my dogs are wonderful over all dogs and while Atka is spayed, we are waiting on Questa. Time will tell (and Xrays!). She is only 10 months old (today).


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

KBLover said:


> Yeah, you know it when you see it, and if the dog produces the results - it's probably all good from the head to the paws (both training and body working as one)


Well what was that old statement by a GSD person (name escapes me Von somebody) "Form Follows Function"

Bird dogs it was a little easier, if you watched a dog run an hour in 90% heat and point birds with style and had the brains/heart to handle. You either bred to it or bought a pup out of it.

You had Brains/Style/Stamina/Heart it's a no-brainer. Linebred was good but sometimes a complete out-cross could produce a winner.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

as the gsd folks say, when it comes down to it most times it's just a crapshoot huh Wvasko


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yvonne said:


> as the gsd folks say, when it comes down to it most times it's just a crapshoot huh Wvasko


Amen, sometimes the genes just do what the genes do and they (the genes) care little of man made plans and breeding dreams.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

to true, it can be heartache what may look good on paper till mother nature throws a twist


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

CoverTune said:


> I get that, but what I said is that I can't wrap my brain around it.. I come from a world of horses, not a world of dogs. Visually, the GSDs butt end looks "wrong" to me. That's all I'm trying to say.


 
When you think of the GSD in horse terms, it would be better to think of a trotter, a gated horse such as a Paso Fino or a Standard bred that is in racing (not riding) condition rather than a QH. Of corse with the function of a horse being to host a rider there's still going to be A LOT of differance. But the lower Croup/Haunch to give a better rear drive reach in the TROT (opposite foot, two beat gait) is what you're looking at. In both the rear (Croup and Haunches) is lower than the Wither, NOT on a square like in a Galloper/cutter like a QH.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> When you think of the GSD in horse terms, it would be better to think of a trotter, a gated horse such as a Paso Fino or a Standard bred that is in racing (not riding) condition rather than a QH. Of corse with the function of a horse being to host a rider there's still going to be A LOT of differance. But the lower Croup/Haunch to give a better rear drive reach in the TROT (opposite foot, two beat gait) is what you're looking at. In both the rear (Croup and Haunches) is lower than the Wither, NOT on a square like in a Galloper/cutter like a QH.


I always thought of the way a Tennessee Walking horse covered ground with little effort. Truth be told I have never seen a GSD work sheep, just read how they could cover ground with ease.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, this is where the species difference comes in to play. A horse needs to have certain things to be a good horse, regardless of the job at hand. A horse could never have the low hocks of a dog or the same back. While all the muscles controlling that 'stuff' are the same _ names _in a physiology diagram, they are different species with different reasons for being what they are. 

Some of what dogs have would be good for horses.. and some of what horses have would be good for dogs. You could never have a horse with the same ratio hind end as a dog.. it would not work. It would be like putting a 4clyinder Hyundai tranny in a forumula one race car....


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> It's a 'powerhouse' Kinda like the low back end of a Corvette, it aids in cornering, high accelleration and even in the ability to jump barriers.


I have a question in regards to the angulation of the rear legs of GSDs. With this sort of "powerhouse" description, you'd think you were describing a breed meant to pull heavy loads like an Alaskan Malamute, but Alaskan Malamutes aren't shaped anything like GSDs in my opinion. Also, they look completely different than any other herder I've seen. Aren't breeds like Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs "upstanding" (or however it was phrased) herders, too, as opposed to using their "eye" like a Border Collie? I'm just asking why the breed looks so dramatically different than any other breed I've seen. The way they work doesn't seem totally different than the way some other herders work, and they're not traditionally used for much else requiring pulling strength like competitive weight pulling. I dunno, I just think a dog with such a unique appearance would be designed for a unique task?

Keechak, I think the reason why GSDs look so unique is because not only is there a downward slope, but there are such extreme angles in the rear legs. Also, I'm not really sure, but do GSDs tend to have shorter back legs than front legs? I just know that with the Irish Setter, the back end does look slightly lower when stacked, but not nearly as dramatic as the GSD, and when it walks its back end probably goes back up, to where it's not very noticeable. I could stretch out my Papillon's back legs and make his rear drop. But his topline is level when he walks. I've noticed with the GSDs, the rear is still very low even when not stacked or when walking.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

wvasko said:


> I always thought of the way a Tennessee Walking horse covered ground with little effort.


Actually I was thinking more of a speed rack


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Aren't breeds like Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs "upstanding" (or however it was phrased) herders, too, as opposed to using their "eye" like a Border Collie?


The dog being upright only denotes the fact that they don't creep and may not use a lot of "eye". However, all those dogs are drovers. The GSD is a tending dog. While it DOES move the flock, it is not like the Border Collie that moves stock ALL the time. The dog helps move the stock from the barnyard out to the graze, and then it spends hours trotting around a border, keeping the sheep within what is known as the graze. The dog will not move the sheep again until it is time to return to the barn.



> I've noticed with the GSDs, the rear is still very low even when not stacked or when walking.


Some not all. Mirada's back is perfectly level when she walks. As is Strauss's


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Nargle said:


> I have a question in regards to the angulation of the rear legs of GSDs. With this sort of "powerhouse" description, you'd think you were describing a breed meant to pull heavy loads like an Alaskan Malamute, but Alaskan Malamutes aren't shaped anything like GSDs in my opinion. Also, they look completely different than any other herder I've seen. Aren't breeds like Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs "upstanding" (or however it was phrased) herders, too, as opposed to using their "eye" like a Border Collie? I'm just asking why the breed looks so dramatically different than any other breed I've seen. The way they work doesn't seem totally different than the way some other herders work, and they're not traditionally used for much else requiring pulling strength like competitive weight pulling. I dunno, I just think a dog with such a unique appearance would be designed for a unique task?
> 
> Keechak, I think the reason why GSDs look so unique is because not only is there a downward slope, but there are such extreme angles in the rear legs. Also, I'm not really sure, but do GSDs tend to have shorter back legs than front legs? I just know that with the Irish Setter, the back end does look slightly lower when stacked, but not nearly as dramatic as the GSD, and when it walks its back end probably goes back up, to where it's not very noticeable. I could stretch out my Papillon's back legs and make his rear drop. But his topline is level when he walks. I've noticed with the GSDs, the rear is still very low even when not stacked or when walking.


 
I said Corvette, not Dodge Ram. The GSD is definately NOT made to pull a load but to get speed off See the "Speed Racking video I posted above.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Nargle said:


> Also, they look completely different than any other herder I've seen. Aren't breeds like Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs "upstanding" (or however it was phrased) herders, too, as opposed to using their "eye" like a Border Collie? I'm just asking why the breed looks so dramatically different than any other breed I've seen. The way they work doesn't seem totally different than the way some other herders work, and they're not traditionally used for much else requiring pulling strength like competitive weight pulling. I dunno, I just think a dog with such a unique appearance would be designed for a unique task?


GSDs are more accurately tenders than herders. I don't know the story well enough to repeat it accurately, but from what I've heard German sheep pretty much know where to go and want to get there, so the dog doesn't move them so much as keep them from straying. So on the way to and from pasture, he keeps them on path and once they're at pasture he keeps them from getting outside their area.

Contrast that to Border Collies in Wales, where sheep pastures were much larger and the sheep were more spread out. When it came time to bring them in, a dog had to cover a large amount of area and round them up. Upright herders, Collies etc, didn't cover as much area and so didn't need the "pwer."

Contrast again to ACDs, who, if I have the story right from JB, tend to work on more feral stock and usually cattle more than sheep.

It's actually pretty cool about how the terrain influences the stock which influences the dogs.



> Keechak, I think the reason why GSDs look so unique is because not only is there a downward slope, but there are such extreme angles in the rear legs. Also, I'm not really sure, but do GSDs tend to have shorter back legs than front legs? I just know that with the Irish Setter, the back end does look slightly lower when stacked, but not nearly as dramatic as the GSD, and when it walks its back end probably goes back up, to where it's not very noticeable. I could stretch out my Papillon's back legs and make his rear drop. But his topline is level when he walks. I've noticed with the GSDs, the rear is still very low even when not stacked or when walking.


I don't know if its just bad handling, but I've seen some Irish Setters that kick up thier heels something feirce as well as lifting thier front. It's all a way to keep their rear from crashing into their front, the rear is "writing a check the front can't cash." You'll notice that the Irish's hocks are perpendicular to the ground. You could stretch out Basil's legs, but he'd be struggling to keep his toes on the ground. The Irish's back legs are significantly longer than the front, so the only way to get the hocks perpendicular is to put them way out behind the dog, which has the effect of dropping the topline.

As far as dropping the rear in movement, that can also be caused by pulling against the lead.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Carla
The reverend horse was working too hard, the black and white walking horse to me looked like it could keep that pace all day. I would think that type of easy going energy is what would be needed for a dog working all day. Again never having watched a shepherd do that type of work it's all guesstimating on my part. 

A dog that worked with the easier energy program would have something left in the gas tank should an emergency occur.



> I don't know if its just bad handling, but I've seen some Irish Setters that kick up thier heels something feirce as well as lifting thier front. It's all a way to keep their rear from crashing into their front, the rear is "writing a check the front can't cash." You'll notice that the Irish's hocks are perpendicular to the ground. You could stretch out Basil's legs, but he'd be struggling to keep his toes on the ground. The Irish's back legs are significantly longer than the front, so the only way to get the hocks perpendicular is to put them way out behind the dog, which has the effect of dropping the topline.


The real sad part is that the Irish looks very different now than when he was a bird dog and I'm sure other natural traits needed for a class hunting dog have gone the way of the dinosaur.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah, the Black and White was much better, Smoother and more efficient But it gives a better idea of hte WHY on the structure if you're going to translate from Horse to Dog.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

german style tending with Ulf Kintzel videos: HGH tending herd is much more than moving sheep. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_z4t6XsE0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Psr4PURA7w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVBdZD8dkGA

Penning sheep but differently than other breeds and more sheep per dog 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GQg9cnIl90

They do actively work the sheep and move them with commands by the shepherd just like the other breeds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2IXlUprj3o


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Actually I was thinking more of a speed rack


That was really cool :biggrin1:



Xeph said:


> The dog being upright only denotes the fact that they don't creep and may not use a lot of "eye". However, all those dogs are drovers. The GSD is a tending dog. While it DOES move the flock, it is not like the Border Collie that moves stock ALL the time. The dog helps move the stock from the barnyard out to the graze, and then it spends hours trotting around a border, keeping the sheep within what is known as the graze. The dog will not move the sheep again until it is time to return to the barn.
> 
> 
> Some not all. Mirada's back is perfectly level when she walks. As is Strauss's


Thanks for the info! I wasn't aware at all of the kind of herding GSDs do. Are there are any other breeds that are tending dogs?

BTW, about the back being level or not when walking, maybe the fact that some dogs (particularly the German dogs) have much more curve of their spine gives the illusion of lower hindquarters when walking? Mirada has a pretty straight topline IMO. 



cshellenberger said:


> I said Corvette, not Dodge Ram. The GSD is definately NOT made to pull a load but to get speed off See the "Speed Racking video I posted above.


Shows how knowing nothing about cars probably effects the way I interpret the metaphor, LOL!



RaeganW said:


> I don't know if its just bad handling, but I've seen some Irish Setters that kick up thier heels something feirce as well as lifting thier front. It's all a way to keep their rear from crashing into their front, the rear is "writing a check the front can't cash." You'll notice that the Irish's hocks are perpendicular to the ground. You could stretch out Basil's legs, but he'd be struggling to keep his toes on the ground. The Irish's back legs are significantly longer than the front, so the only way to get the hocks perpendicular is to put them way out behind the dog, which has the effect of dropping the topline.
> 
> As far as dropping the rear in movement, that can also be caused by pulling against the lead.


It's true that Basil's hind legs are pretty straight compared to an Irish Setter's or a GSD's. But there's still a significant difference between the angle of the legs of the Irish Setter and the GSD. BTW, maybe it's just me, but the Irish Setter that Keechak posted doesn't have his hocks perpendicular to the ground?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> but the Irish Setter that Keechak posted doesn't have his hocks perpendicular to the ground?


It does. Most definitely. Perpindicular means the hock is straight up and down to the floor.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

wvasko said:


> The real sad part is that the Irish looks very different now than when he was a bird dog and I'm sure other natural traits needed for a class hunting dog have gone the way of the dinosaur.


Oh for sure, it's an absolute travesty. I'd consider the field/show split in most sporting breeds to be deeper than any split in GSDs, and that's absolutely criminal.



> It does. Most definitely. Perpindicular means the hock is straight up and down to the floor.


The definition is a little more complicated than that. I should know, I just learned it on Friday.  Yes, that's right, senior level math student and we're just now defining perpendicular lines... you don't even want to know how we define between.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The definition is a little more complicated than that.


Yes, but for lay people that hate numbers, that explanation is more than adequate


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> It does. Most definitely. Perpindicular means the hock is straight up and down to the floor.


I know what perpendicular means, and I'm pretty certain it means intersecting at a 90 degree angle.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

The dog is a little over stacked, but the point still stands. On a lot of the sporting breeds (the setters and pointers, mainly) rear is out of control, and should be just as troubling to someone who is concerned over the rear on GSDs.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

So then the question becomes, Raegan, why AREN'T people as concerned?

There IS something about the construction of the GSD rear that makes it "different" when that one foot is forward. I myself will admit that many show line dogs (German and American alike) have hocks that are low to the ground (but not necessarily touching) when they're stacked. However, you look at an Irish Setter or GSP standing like a GSD, and that bend of stifle is not the same, nor do their hocks sit as low as the GSD.

So is it a matter of the lower thigh of the sporters not matching the upper thigh, as it should in the GSD?


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Keechak said:


>


Quoting the picutre so I can see it without jumping between two pages.

I'm speculating that people have been fighting about the GSD rear for longer, and the Irish rear is a newer development. The GSD stack accentuates it as well. 

At the Structure in Action seminar, I remember Pat Hastings flexing an Irish Setter puppy's leg at the knee so the paw was touching the butt... or would have, had the tibia not been so much longer than the femur. It was very odd to see.

Yeah, actually, the more I think about it and look at it, I think that's what it is. The GSD (ideally) has leg bones of roughly the same length. If you lengthened the Irish's upper thigh bone, you would lower the knee joint and put more angulation in if you kept the foot where it was.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> Oh for sure, it's an absolute travesty. I'd consider the field/show split in most sporting breeds to be deeper than any split in GSDs, and that's absolutely criminal.
> 
> 
> 
> The definition is a little more complicated than that. I should know, I just learned it on Friday.  Yes, that's right, senior level math student and we're just now defining perpendicular lines... you don't even want to know how we define between.


Lmao. You taking a Non Euclidean geometry class or something? 

Yes I am adding to the thread.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Lmao. You taking a Non Euclidean geometry class or something?
> 
> Yes I am adding to the thread.


Just Modern Geometry, which is turning out to be "here are some axioms, let's prove every theorm in the book." Which is actually kind of cool, we're effectively building an entire geometry. We're working through Hilbert's axiom sets, just got to axoims of congruence. We only just defined what an angle is last week, but we still don't have a way to measure them.  

The joke about between is that it's undefined, for points anyway. 

Ahahaha, I love math!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> Just Modern Geometry, which is turning out to be "here are some axioms, let's prove every theorm in the book." Which is actually kind of cool, we're effectively building an entire geometry. We're working through Hilbert's axiom sets, just got to axoims of congruence. We only just defined what an angle is last week, but we still don't have a way to measure them.
> 
> The joke about between is that it's undefined, for points anyway.
> 
> Ahahaha, I love math!


LOL fun! I love how once you get so far into math they start telling you all the things you've based your previous math on is wrong. I actually liked geometry quite a bit to be honest. Sure beats analysis. 

anyways, carry on.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> LOL fun! I love how once you get so far into math they start telling you all the things you've based your previous math on is wrong. I actually liked geometry quite a bit to be honest. Sure beats analysis.
> 
> anyways, carry on.


I was just talking about this with my classmate! You know how when you're in third grade or whatever, and they start teaching you how to subtract? I asked a question about how you knew which number when on top and we were told the larger number always goes on top, because otherwise you can't subtract. It just can't be done, it's like dividing by zero (which would be meaningless as an analogy, since you don't know what "dividing" is anyway). And then the very next year, surprise! There are things called negative numbers!

Early education is basically telling children incredible lies and seeing which ones they'll believe.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> Early education is basically telling children incredible lies and seeing which ones they'll believe.


Or, telling kids stuff that is wrong, and progressively tell them things that are slightly less wrong


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Shaina said:


> Or, telling kids stuff that is wrong, and progressively tell them things that are slightly less wrong


Haha soooo true!


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> So then the question becomes, Raegan, why AREN'T people as concerned?
> 
> There IS something about the construction of the GSD rear that makes it "different" when that one foot is forward. I myself will admit that many show line dogs (German and American alike) have hocks that are low to the ground (but not necessarily touching) when they're stacked. However, you look at an Irish Setter or GSP standing like a GSD, and that bend of stifle is not the same, nor do their hocks sit as low as the GSD.
> 
> So is it a matter of the lower thigh of the sporters not matching the upper thigh, as it should in the GSD?


I think the reason why GSDs look so different in my opinion isn't really all about the way they're stacked with one foot forward. To me it's that in some GSDs, there is a lot more bend in the knee area, so it looks like the dog is sort of crouching. With the setter, the legs are straighter, so when stretched out backwards they look more like they're standing like a big tent, lol. Sorry if my analogies don't make very much sense, it's difficult to describe. 

Also I guess the one foot forward contributes, too, I guess most people aren't used to seeing the hock that close to the ground when standing and not moving.


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Just popping in for a split second to say that I've always thought German line gsd's were much more attractive than American line ones. 

That is all. *shimmies out of the thread*


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Just popping in for a split second to say that I've always thought German line gsd's were much more attractive than American line ones.


What a helpful contribution  And when you say "German" do you mean show lines or working lines? Czech, DDR, or West German Working (as opposed to West German show)?


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Thank you Allyfally for the compliment to the gsds I also love. Do you have any favorites?


----------



## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> It's a 'powerhouse' Kinda like the low back end of a Corvette, it aids in cornering, high accelleration and even in the ability to jump barriers. It also aids in the dogs ability to 'drop' and take off quickly when working cattle or sheep.


Is this hypothetical, or are there studies to back it? Not that it would necessarily be wrong if it were just hypothetical, but I'm genuinely curious about how that view came about.



CoverTune said:


> This is the hind end of an animal bred & built for herding, quick turns & bursts of speed. And this is what I've known for 25 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot of people have responded to this by saying that you can't make comparisons across species, but I think that covertune's post has merit. There are a lot of reasons why many species have evolved similar characteristics separately. I can't really think of any examples of any mammals (perhaps through lack of imagination?) that have -- through natural or artificial selection -- a similar topline to some German Shepherds, even when I think of species that have evolved to trot for long distances (wolves) or to turn on a dime (covertune's example of quarter horses) or jump barriers (thoroughbreds) as in cshellenberger's explanation.

Anyway, I feel like I'm veering dangerously into pseudoscience territory, since I can't think of anything to back my reasoning, so I'll stop.

Not to stir the pot or anything, but I've been thinking more and more that people within a breed -- any breed -- often are at risk of losing sight of the forest for the trees. Sometimes we get situations where people outside a particular breed are nearly unanimous in saying, "What happened?" after a breed changes dramatically over a relatively short period of time, sometimes becoming much more extreme in some senses. But people inside the breed will defend it, and sometimes don't even seem to see what everyone else is talking about.

I don't know what's right or wrong for the GSD. But I do know that humans make mistakes, and that "group think" can be very powerful.

ETA: I don't mean to lump all GSD's together. There are big differences. I think people generally tend to have that "what happened?" reaction to the show lines, and more to the German show lines than the American ones. But even within those types, there are many different looks.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

> I can't really think of any examples of any mammals (perhaps through lack of imagination?) that have -- through natural or artificial selection -- a similar topline to some German Shepherds.












ETA: this is what kind of drew me back from the sort of visceral objection to the GSD structure i have seen in some dogs...the hyena hunting technique is dependent on trotting and observation. they're a little slower than most predators but high on stamina...it works and is efficient.


----------



## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ETA: this is what kind of drew me back from the sort of visceral objection to the GSD structure i have seen in some dogs...the hyena hunting technique is dependent on trotting and observation. they're a little slower than most predators but high on stamina...it works and is efficient.


You thought of one! (Although I think that picture exaggerates it -- though I suppose you could say that a GSD stack exaggerates it, too.)


From thinking a little more, I wanted to add that my point about "group think" and the forest for the trees was partly meant to say that sometimes people who aren't within a breed may still have something to contribute, and that gaining a little perspective can be good for anyone. Particularly with breeds that have suffered health problems because of changes.


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Xeph said:


> What a helpful contribution  And when you say "German" do you mean show lines or working lines? Czech, DDR, or West German Working (as opposed to West German show)?


I have no clue! XD

*stealing from Y'vonnes post on first page"










This dog, to me, is simply GORGEOUS. 

I really honestly know absolutely nothing about breedings and different lines and different "styles" or whatever. XD I just know what I've always heard as "german gsd's" and "american gsd's." And from what I've just learned in about 5 minutes of zappy researching, I *think* I like the Czech kind and the West German kind?

I like this one.









No Idea what this kind is (or if its even German lines), but I think its also gorgeous.



























And thats as far as my completely unprofessional opinion goes. I just know what I like the looks of, nothing further. And I've always been under the impression that American gsd's were a lot smaller, thinner, shorter hair, ect than German bred ones. Dont know if theres any truth to that, like I said. I know nothing about this stuff.










I also think this dog is beautiful (back I do think the back is kinda extreme) but did you say it was from American lines? So that shows I really have no idea what I'm talking about. Which I was already aware that I have no clue. I usually dont know what I'm talking about. I just babble. XD


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Those are, indeed, German lines (the last dog that you quoted, however, is American lines).

We all have our personal preferences. Me? I just like German Shepherd Dogs. A good GSD is a good GSD regardless of type. 

Honestly, though, if there were a thread on Clumber Spaniels I don't pop in just to say "I never liked Clumber Spaniels, they have icky heads. Kthnxbai"


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

begemot said:


> You thought of one! (Although I think that picture exaggerates it -- though I suppose you could say that a GSD stack exaggerates it, too.)
> 
> 
> From thinking a little more, I wanted to add that my point about "group think" and the forest for the trees was partly meant to say that sometimes people who aren't within a breed may still have something to contribute, and that gaining a little perspective can be good for anyone. Particularly with breeds that have suffered health problems because of changes.


im not a GSD person in the slightest lol. I used to hate them. Ive been bitten by 7 separate GSDs...all nasty tempered monsters.....but Sir Strauss (Xeph's dog) and his love of cuddling babies changed that lol....

there's points on both sides...*shrugs*


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Equinox said:


> Honestly, though, if there were a thread on Clumber Spaniels I don't pop in just to say "I never liked Clumber Spaniels, they have icky heads. Kthnxbai"


WHAT?! But they're so uglycute! I just wanna grab their faces and squish them!



Equinox said:


> We all have our personal preferences. Me? I just like German Shepherd Dogs. A good GSD is a good GSD regardless of type.


Oh and I agree. Cause I have seen some American ones that I think are beautiful. As is shown in that last picture. To me, its more of what I think looks good than the breeding it took to make it look good.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ETA: this is what kind of drew me back from the sort of visceral objection to the GSD structure i have seen in some dogs...the hyena hunting technique is dependent on trotting and observation. they're a little slower than most predators but high on stamina...it works and is efficient.


Yes the Hyena does have a NATURAL topline like a GSD, but a different much stiffer gate.


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

lol Imagine what you'd think if you owned a Clumber and had devoted almost a decade to showing/handling/exhibiting and promoting the breed with intentions to eventually breed. Just to put things in perspective.  

For the record, I have absolutely no opinion of Clumber Spaniels. I neither like nor dislike them. I just used them as an example because my neighbor just walked by with hers. 

And also, my dog is German lines, so I don't take much personal offense to your comment regarding American lines vs. German lines, but honestly found it more hurtful than helpful.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Yes the Hyena does have a NATURAL topline like a GSD, but a different much stiffer gate.


diff leg proportions. still..y'all get the point i hope.


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Equinox said:


> lol Imagine what you'd think if you owned a Clumber and had devoted almost a decade to showing/handling/exhibiting and promoting the breed with intentions to eventually breed. Just to put things in perspective.
> 
> For the record, I have absolutely no opinion of Clumber Spaniels. I neither like nor dislike them. I just used them as an example because my neighbor just walked by with hers.
> 
> And also, my dog is German lines, so I don't take much personal offense to your comment regarding American lines vs. German lines, but honestly found it more hurtful than helpful.


Oh sorry, I wasnt trying to be hurtful at all. Other people threw their opinions in, so I threw mine in. I mean, I didnt say "ewww American bred gsd's are ugly!" I just said I prefer German ones. Sorry if I offended anyone though, completely unintentional.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Ronaldo thanks you Ally. Everyone that meets him falls in love with him and he is just so huggable lol He has a local fan club including the children that read to him in a program and he lays with each of them with his head across their laps, they fight over who gets him each visit. He is a steady gsd of impeccable temperament and is a laid back sweetheart till you work him in schutzhund that is lol

I like one of the other dogs you posted as well.


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Allyfally said:


> Oh sorry, I wasnt trying to be hurtful at all. Other people threw their opinions in, so I threw mine in. I mean, I didnt say "ewww American bred gsd's are ugly!" I just said I prefer German ones. Sorry if I offended anyone though, completely unintentional.


I know you wouldn't and didn't have any bad intentions  Just wanted to let you know how I did feel about the comment. 

German lines are nice and so are American lines. Each have their faults as an overall type. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion!


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Equinox said:


> I know you wouldn't and didn't have any bad intentions  Just wanted to let you know how I did feel about the comment.
> 
> German lines are nice and so are American lines. Each have their faults as an overall type. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion!


Completely true! 

Like I love JRT's and own one myself, but I certainly dont see every JRT and think "omg its perfect!"

There are some gorgeous German line gsd's and there are some gorgeous American line gsd's. But I can understand where if you'd devoted your life to a certain type, then you'd be more partial to that type. And I dont think theres anything wrong with preferring your own type over other ones, but theres no need to insult the kind. Just differences in opinions.


----------



## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I could not agree more that there are good and bad examples of German showlines, am lines and working lines. Because I do not agree with a type of way of handling in the ring and say so or because I do not like the over all trend of the am lines in ring or some of the mal looking gsds does not mean every one of them are the same just like my german lines are not roached even though to read this thread all of them are didnt ya know? Anyone can find a really bad example of each of these types to post on here to make fun of them, but I have not.


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Allyfally said:


> Completely true!
> 
> Like I love JRT's and own one myself, but I certainly dont see every JRT and think "omg its perfect!"
> 
> There are some gorgeous German line gsd's and there are some gorgeous American line gsd's. But I can understand where if you'd devoted your life to a certain type, then you'd be more partial to that type. And I dont think theres anything wrong with preferring your own type over other ones, but theres no need to insult the kind. Just differences in opinions.


Thanks - I didn't mean to imply that you were intentionally hurting any feelings. I've never noticed any animosity or condescension coming from your posts. I just found that one in particular a bit out of the blue.



Yvonne said:


> I could not agree more that there are good and bad examples of German showlines, am lines and working lines. Because I do not agree with a type of way of handling in the ring and say so or because I do not like the over all trend of the am lines in ring or some of the mal looking gsds does not mean every one of them are the same just like my german lines are not roached even though to read this thread all of them are didnt ya know? Anyone can find a really bad example of each of these types to post on here to make fun of them, but I have not.


Yvonne, I'm not sure if I'm on your blocked list or not, but I can say that in all 12 pages of this thread, I have not noticed a single person say that your dogs are roached. There have been nothing but compliments on all of your dogs.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Ahahaha, I love math!



I love math, but usually prefer algebra to geometry. I guess because I've used algebra in my day-to-day life moreso than geometry


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Equinox said:


> Yvonne, I'm not sure if I'm on your blocked list or not, but I can say that in all 12 pages of this thread, I have not noticed a single person say that your dogs are roached. There have been nothing but compliments on all of your dogs.


blocked people can still be read in quotes.

and +1


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> to true, it can be heartache what may look good on paper till mother nature throws a twist


I think she does it on purpose too... 

Nature and her mind games lol!


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Equinox said:


> Thanks - I didn't mean to imply that you were intentionally hurting any feelings. I've never noticed any animosity or condescension coming from your posts. I just found that one in particular a bit out of the blue.


lol, Yeah. I try to get along with everyone. I hate joining in arguing, it makes me anxious. I almost didnt post that at all, in case it got perceived as being catty. I sometimes have a way of wording things that makes it seem like I'm trying to be mean, but I'm honestly not. So if it happens in the future, dont hesitate to tell me! I tend to forget that not everyone shares my brain and might not see what I'm saying the same way I do. XD


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> diff leg proportions. still..y'all get the point i hope.


 
Of course I get the point, I think I told someone on FB that the Hyena was the closest natural example last night. They're facinating animals.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Wow, wife and I went to bed 2 pages ago. I have a question what do you suppose the GSDs that are lunch bucket type dogs that tends flocks for a living would look like. 30 to 50 yrs of that type work only, no shows, no Schutzhund just life on a sheep farm/ranch. 

These dogs then bred to others that are just sheep farm/ranch employees.

The HGH dogs on youtube looked great but do little to show stamina/heart etc. Just curious. I suppose on the modern farm nowadays there are more ATV vehicles used than dogs, how sad.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Equinox said:


> I know you wouldn't and didn't have any bad intentions  Just wanted to let you know how I did feel about the comment.
> 
> German lines are nice and so are American lines. Each have their faults as an overall type. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion!


Couldn't agree more. I've seen some conformationally yucky (to me) examples of both. At worst German dogs are roachy and Amlines are way over-angulated. I happen to like both lines; I have (not one, but two!) poor examples of papillons (conformationally speaking), doesn't mean I love them any less.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Wow, wife and I went to bed 2 pages ago. I have a question what do you suppose the GSDs that are lunch bucket type dogs that tends flocks for a living would look like. 30 to 50 yrs of that type work only, no shows, no Schutzhund just life on a sheep farm/ranch.
> 
> These dogs then bred to others that are just sheep farm/ranch employees.
> 
> The HGH dogs on youtube looked great but do little to show stamina/heart etc. Just curious. I suppose on the modern farm nowadays there are more ATV vehicles used than dogs, how sad.


It looks like I am working on a Sheep Farm part time these days with dogs that do this 'for a living.' I will say these dogs like the German GSD from the 1960's. They have extremely good bone and when they stand square look like the drawings that Yvonne posted originally. The topline is a smooth S with a smooth transition between neck, withers, back and croup. The croup is downward sloping (does not go straight back to the base of tail) but there is no noticeable change from back to croup to natural tail carriage. They are not overly large dogs but they are built like a power house. 

The biggest difference I see is in temperament. These dogs are watchful but really not at all human aggressive. They alert bark but you do not fear for your life around them at all. In fact, once you meet their owner, you are accepted into the 'pack' so to speak. And the next time you go to the farm, they remember you. And they fight to lay on your feet under the table... 

They are, in temperament and biddability, exactly like my dog Kazi was. Really good dogs.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> There are some gorgeous German line gsd's and there are some gorgeous American line gsd's.


As Raegan says, quoted for truth.

I personally love all the lines, and will have one of every line in my house by the end of the year xD My own preferences just lean to American show lines and the Euro working lines. There are many things I like about German show lines, but much like people that don't like too much rear in an American dog, I do not like a dog with a roachy topline, and the truth is it IS hard to find one with the kind of topline I like, and even if I find a dog that has a beautiful topline, many of the dogs in the dog's pedigree do not.

This is a dog that was imported into the states for breeding to Amline bitches, Wegas Kleinen Holzweg. I like him very much.









And his brother, Wotan (still in Germany):









The fronts on these two dogs are GORGEOUS. I like Wotan's size a bit better myself (I think that Wegas is just a bit too bulky), but the bone is lovely, great pasterns, and nice heads that aren't heavy and over done. The rears are also lovely, and more moderate than many American dogs, though they've still clearly got enough to gait well and work.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

After reading through much of this, I think I prefer the Hyena's breed standard, after all.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> After reading through much of this, I think I prefer the Hyena's breed standard, after all.


 
My computer thanks you for causing it to wear a mouthful of Maple Muffin and coffee!



Xeph said:


> As Raegan says, quoted for truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BOTH those boys are DROP DEAD Gorgous! :looks up locations for dog napping plans:


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Xeph said:


>


*drools*

This is exactly the kind of dog I like. Want!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Me too. Unfortunately finding a pedigree that matches how the dog looks is very difficult.


----------

