# Only halfway potty trained at 8 months - help!



## jeffnmel (Jul 11, 2013)

Hi, all. We have an 8 month old Shih-Tzu who is still pooping in the house. In fact, he'll go outside to pee and poop within 10 minutes after he's back inside. Wondering what we can do to fix this. A little more info:

~ He seems to not like grass in general. We got him over Christmas and he seemed to do better going in the snow. Most of the time, we end up having to carry him or pull him into the grass.

~ He seems to know/realize that he's not supposed to poop inside. His head drops and his ears fold back a little when he sees that we've found out what he's done.

~ He doesn't really tell us when he needs to go. I think he pees outside because it's faster and because we take him out often enough that he shouldn't have any accidents, but he doesn't bark, scratch at the door, etc. when he needs to go.

Let me know if there's any other info you need. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

How much time do you spend outside each time you go out? I would recommend leashing him and staying in the grass with him until he poops, and doing this consistently.


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## jeffnmel (Jul 11, 2013)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> How much time do you spend outside each time you go out? I would recommend leashing him and staying in the grass with him until he poops, and doing this consistently.


It varies, though my fiance will stand out there with him for 5-10 minutes, only to have him sneak off and poop in the house as soon as her back is turned.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

One of the dogs I looked after needed some physical exertion before he would poop... "it just seemed to work better and faster for him and more reliable that for my time taking him out I would get a good solid poop out of him) I had 3 very schedule good walk/jogs with him to get it done.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

I'm not trying to beat you up, but this is 100% handler error and should be easy to fix.
1) When your dog poops in the house you need to catch him IN THE ACT (not 30 seconds later) and correct him immediately. Grab him by the scruff of the neck (this need not any sort of violent action), pick up him just a couple inches off the ground, and very firmly say "NO!"
2) Take him outside right away to finish. If he poops outside PRAISE HIM and reward him with a food treat. Attach a word to "pooping." I would say to my shepherds "good poopies!" or whatever you want to call it.
3) I'm nervous about your statement that "he seems to know/realize that he's not supposed to poop inside." No, he doesn't. And if you're yelling/disciplining him any time beyond a second, maybe two seconds after it happens he has NO IDEA what you're talking about. This is a very basic concept. 
4) Your dog's bowel movements (if you're feeding good quality food) should be closely tied to his feeding schedule. Take him outside after a play session to go, and after a meal. 
5) If he's not telling you when he needs to go you need to TRAIN him to do so by rewarding going outside, and correcting mistakes inside IF you catch him in the act, which you should. Good luck.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

jeffnmel said:


> Hi, all. We have an 8 month old Shih-Tzu who is still pooping in the house. In fact, he'll go outside to pee and poop within 10 minutes after he's back inside. Wondering what we can do to fix this.


Do you take him out on a leash? If not, start doing that so you can watch and immediately reward him for going outside.

Stay outside with him longer and, as Patricia said, he may need to walk around a little before he goes. Wait until he poops and then act as though he's just pooped a pile of gold coins! Praise him, give him treats, play with his favorite toy. Make him think that pooping outside is the most wonderful thing in the world.

When you're inside, keep your eyes on him so he doesn't have the opportunity to poop. There is no need to catch him in the act; don't give him the opportunity to make a mistake. If you can't watch him, put him in a crate or ex-pen. Keep him leashed to you if necessary.



jeffnmel said:


> A little more info:
> 
> ~ He seems to not like grass in general. We got him over Christmas and he seemed to do better going in the snow. Most of the time, we end up having to carry him or pull him into the grass.


When you have some time (e.g., after work, on the weekend), make being on the grass the best thing ever. Give him his favorite treats while he's outside near the grass, then when he steps on to the grass, then when he's completely on the grass. What games and toys does he like? Take them out and play on the grass.



jeffnmel said:


> ~ He seems to know/realize that he's not supposed to poop inside. His head drops and his ears fold back a little when he sees that we've found out what he's done.


He doesn't know he's not supposed to go in the house. He knows you're upset and he's trying to appease you. He's scared. Do not correct / punish him, the result could be a dog that is too scared to poop in front of you and that will make this even more difficult.



jeffnmel said:


> ~ He doesn't really tell us when he needs to go. I think he pees outside because it's faster and because we take him out often enough that he shouldn't have any accidents, but he doesn't bark, scratch at the door, etc. when he needs to go.
> 
> Let me know if there's any other info you need. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!


Not all dogs signal that they need to go out. And even if they do, it may not involve barking or going to the door. When my dog needs to go out, she stares at me. You should have a general idea of when he needs to go, just keep him on a schedule.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> 1) When your dog poops in the house you need to catch him IN THE ACT (not 30 seconds later) and correct him immediately. Grab him by the scruff of the neck (this need not any sort of violent action), pick up him just a couple inches off the ground, and very firmly say "NO!"


I would not use this method, personally! Scruffing can be frightening for a dog. You run the risk of making the wrong association, which can cause bigger problems. For instance, you're trying to make the dog understand that pooping _indoors _is undesirable. But dogs often connect the punishment with simply pooping in front of people (outdoors as well as in). In a scenario where the dog starts to squat, I would definitely interrupt - but not yell or punish - and RUSH the dog outside. If you punish the dog for pooping inside, it won't necessary stop pooping inside; it'll just run off to a secluded place to poop away from people.

The dog should be set up for success, though. As close to 100% supervision as possible during potty training, with lots of random breaks outside and after eating and intense play (when the dog is likely to go). Major play, praise and treats with potty success. Teaching the dog what to do is much easier than teaching it what not to do.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I would not use this method, personally! Scruffing can be frightening for a dog. You run the risk of making the wrong association, which can cause bigger problems. F
> 
> I respectfully disagree...A mother picks up her newborn pups with her mouth by the scruff of their necks, so this is not foreign to them. The only way the dog will make the wrong association is if you wait too long. As I said, this must be done WHILE the act is taking place or within ONE-TWO SECONDS.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Trevian96 said:


> I respectfully disagree...A mother picks up her newborn pups with her mouth by the scruff of their necks, so this is not foreign to them. The only way the dog will make the wrong association is if you wait too long. As I said, this must be done WHILE the act is taking place or within ONE-TWO SECONDS.


An 8-month-old pup is not a newborn, and a human owner is not a mother dog. Scruffing a dog at this age may very well be painful and frightening for the dog. I agree with interrupting a bad behavior, but I don't believe in the necessity for punishment here. Though depending on your dog, scruffing and a hard "NO" may not faze it. Still, not something I'd risk in potty training. You want an interruption, not a negative association because of the very real risk of the _wrong _negative association. The latter in housebreaking often leads to a dog that won't poop in front of people (or that potentially shies away from hands near its neck).


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

We'll have to agree to disagree. Point is the feel of being grabbed by the scruff isn't foreign, and even softer dogs should be relatively ok with this. Potty training at 8 months is already a problem since this dog should've been potty trained 6 months ago, and I would try it this technique coupled with appropriate praise for going outside...I potty trained by German shepherd dogs as 8 week old puppies in about 48 hours...so that's where I'm coming from.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> I'm not trying to beat you up, but this is 100% handler error and should be easy to fix.
> 1) When your dog poops in the house you need to catch him IN THE ACT (not 30 seconds later) and correct him immediately. Grab him by the scruff of the neck (this need not any sort of violent action), pick up him just a couple inches off the ground, and very firmly say "NO!"
> 2) Take him outside right away to finish. If he poops outside PRAISE HIM and reward him with a food treat. Attach a word to "pooping." I would say to my shepherds "good poopies!" or whatever you want to call it.
> 3) I'm nervous about your statement that "he seems to know/realize that he's not supposed to poop inside." No, he doesn't. And if you're yelling/disciplining him any time beyond a second, maybe two seconds after it happens he has NO IDEA what you're talking about. This is a very basic concept.
> ...


Ok, I DO agree with a tidbit of this.

- YES, if you're feeding a quality food that works for your pup, his.pooping should be tied to feeding, with a few other factors contributing. So, get a journal going of when you feed, and how long after feeding he usually poops. That way you know about when to expect it. 
- YES, praise and give treats for going outside, and use a "cue " for it.
- Half /half: I agree he doesn't understand he's not supposed to poop inside because it's bad. You see, dogs will exhibit 'appeasement' behaviors, trying to appease or make the human less mad, or not mad at all. It has nothing to do with guilt, rather they can tell you're upset, frustrated, whatever, and want to fix it. Appeasement behaviors include lowering eyes, slinking on the ground, hiding, avoiding you or avoid eye contact, etc. In human terms, it looks like guilt, but he's not human.
The part I don't agree with on thi one is that catching him in the act will have any effect on getting him to understand what he's guilty of, because dogs don't do 'guilt' , they do appeasement.

I strongly urge you NOT to punish/correct by scruffing. First, if it scares him, he's likely to 'finish' pooping before you get him out, because he's scared. Second, you aren't a dog and he KNOWS you're not a dog. He might expect that rrom his mama, back when he was younger, but coming from you (not a dog) it's likely to freak him out. And, really, do you want to freak him out mid-poop? How's that going to help to get him to poop on command in front of you?

Don't give him tha chance to sneak away and poop inside. Watch him when he's awake and on the move. Seriously watch HIM, not also the tv, or computer, or do chores. Just watch him. If he's laying down with a treat or toy you're off the hook a bit. The minute he gets up, watch him.

When you take him out, waiting 5 minutes is fine. Ten might be better because you can run him around a bit to get things moving. You don't have to wait longer. However, if he doesn't go outside, and you think it's time for him to go, guess what? He's probably going to sneak off inside and go. So that's when you REALLY have to supervise closely so you can rush him out the second you see anything (sniffing, circling, pacing) .

Preventing inside poop is key. Don't allow it, just watch so closely he doesn't have the chance to. It won't be like this forever if you replace bad the undesirable behavior with desirable behavior, by giving him no choice.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

doxiemommy said:


> Ok, I DO agree with a tidbit of this.
> 
> - YES, if you're feeding a quality food that works for your pup, his.pooping should be tied to feeding, with a few other factors contributing. So, get a journal going of when you feed, and how long after feeding he usually poops. That way you know about when to expect it.
> - YES, praise and give treats for going outside, and use a "cue " for it.
> ...



By not correcting this inside, you will get inconsistent results. Your dog may learn to go outside, but he will not learn NOT to go inside as well. This is not about the dog feeling guilty. Dogs don't feel guilty, they separate the world into two categories: things that are good for me, things that are not good for me. By correcting him in the act, you are teaching him that pooping in the house is not good for him. This is a really, really basic aspect of raising puppies. Ignore it at your peril. Good luck


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Trevian96 said:


> When your dog poops in the house you need to catch him IN THE ACT (not 30 seconds later) and correct him immediately. Grab him by the scruff of the neck (this need not any sort of violent action), pick up him just a couple inches off the ground, and very firmly say "NO!"


Oh god, don't do this. It's far more likely to make your dog think that pooping when you're around might turn you into a scary demon-thing than that he shouldn't poop inside.

If he sneaks off and poops elsewhere in the house, you have to take away his ability to sneak away. Don't let him have free run of the house, do not let him out of your sight, until he is solidly housetrained. Tether him to you, baby gate him in the room you're in, and watch him like a hawk, carry him around for 5-10 minutes, whatever you need to do so that he CANNOT sneak off to poop. The take him outside again 5-10 minutes later. Just keep repeating until he poops outside and really, really reward him.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree. Point is the feel of being grabbed by the scruff isn't foreign, and even softer dogs should be relatively ok with this. Potty training at 8 months is already a problem since this dog should've been potty trained 6 months ago, and I would try it this technique coupled with appropriate praise for going outside...I potty trained by German shepherd dogs as 8 week old puppies in about 48 hours...so that's where I'm coming from.


So you managed to house train puppies at an age where they don't even have the physical ability to control their functions and to know when they have to eliminate? Impressive.

Scruffing a dog, for a potty accident or otherwise, tends to lead to a hand shy dog. I don't want a dog that shies away from my hand reaching to put on a collar or a leash or to scratch the dog's neck. Scruffing can also be painful to a dog and if done too strongly, cause injury.
Any punishment (remember that the definition of punishment is determined by the individual dog) for indoor accidents can lead to a dog that refuses to eliminate in the presence of people. Very very frustrating and time consuming to fix.

Not all dogs give a "signal" when they need to go, it can be very very subtle like sitting near a door or simply staring at their owner. 

Make a schedule for taking the dog out, basically at least once in the morning, right after work, right after dinner, and 1-2 more times in the evening probably depending on your schedule. 5-10 minutes of sniffing and walking around will get most dogs "moving" but some really truly need a full walk in the morning before a bowel movement.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Potty training an 8 week old pup is like playing slot machines, you just have figured out when the most likely time a puppy has to urinate and be sure to have them outside to do it. Slots also payout at predictable times. 

To the OP, we have one dog who wil not poop until after she's eaten breakfast, generally 10 minutes after she's gone out to pee and comes back in to eat. We used to be able to leave the dogs to eat while we showered in the morning, but discovered this happy little habit of hers a few years ago. So now we wake up and take all the dogs out immediately, they come back in to eat, then we take everyone out a second time as soon as the bowls are empty and wait until Cally has pooped. We have another one that poops in the evening. So everyone in the house knows you don't bring Moose back in until she has pooped. If you know the dog's schedule...just work with it.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

The dog isn't housebroken and shouldn't have the opportunity to sneak off. If the dog isn't being supervised with 100% of your attention, then it needs to be crated. Our dog caught on to peeing outside faster than pooping outside. As a puppy, he didn't have as much of a pattern to his pooping as he does as an adult. He didn't go for hours after he ate, so taking him out 15 or 20 minutes after eating didn't help. Gross as it sound, I noticed that when he was needing to go, his butt would bulge. As soon as I saw that, we went out, and he'd poop outside, and get all kinds of praise! In the end, he learned to ring the bell to go out and poop before learning to ring it to go out and pee. As a pup, he wouldn't typically do both on one trip out, so we'd go out to pee, 10 minutes later he'd be ringing his bell, we'd go out again and he'd poop.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Whenever Squash was acting like a real D-Bag, it usually meant he had to poop.  

ETA: I used to say that when he was full of it, he probably WAS full of it.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> By not correcting this inside, you will get inconsistent results. Your dog may learn to go outside, but he will not learn NOT to go inside as well. This is not about the dog feeling guilty. Dogs don't feel guilty, they separate the world into two categories: things that are good for me, things that are not good for me. By correcting him in the act, you are teaching him that pooping in the house is not good for him. This is a really, really basic aspect of raising puppies. Ignore it at your peril. Good luck


I disagree that not correcting will lead to inconsistent results. If you read my entire post, you will see I stated the puppy should be watched super closely whenever he is awake and on the move, so as to prevent pooping inside. If you are preventing inside poops at all costs, that is going to get you very consistent results, because he simply isn't allowed to poop inside.
It's all about preventing the bad and giving plenty of opportunity for the good. This way, you are replacing the bad habit with the good. If you prevent the bad long enough, the habit will be broken with the pup assuming he should only poop outside because that's the only thing he's given the chance to do.

I've potty trained 5 puppies now, and never ever have I corrected /punished /scruffed one. 
You will find that the majority of us here, whether we are vets, trainers, behaviorists, or simply owners, find the 'correct/punish ror potty training philosophy to be old school and outdated.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Do NOT scruff your dog. It will only damage the trust he has for you and will not teach him a thing. Leash him in the house and walk him around with you every where. When he has to go, he will not be able to sneak off. Instead he will whine and bark and pace and you will not be able to miss the signals.

Humans are not dogs. No dog is stupid enough to believe that a human is a dog. It seems that dogs are smarter than some people. :wink:


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Do NOT scruff your dog. It will only damage the trust he has for you and will not teach him a thing. Leash him in the house and walk him around with you every where. When he has to go, he will not be able to sneak off. Instead he will whine and bark and pace and you will not be able to miss the signals.
> 
> Humans are not dogs. No dog is stupid enough to believe that a human is a dog. It seems that dogs are smarter than some people. :wink:


Obviously when you pick up a dog by the scruff he doesn't mistake you for his mother. Gimme a break. My point (lost on you apparently) was that when the dog is picked up by the scruff it is not an unnatural feeling or action for him. My male German shepherd dog was house broken at 8 weeks old. He never pooped in my house. NEVER. Not once. He peed ONCE in my house and I scruffed him. This was not a terrifying, violent act. I caught him while he was going, picked him up by the scruff just so his front paws were an inch or two off the ground, and gave him a "NO." It never happened again. Not ever. My female German shepherd dog was house broken at 9 weeks. She too never pooped in my house. NEVER. Not once. She peed in the house 2-3 times the first week I had her and when caught in the act was corrected the same. Problem solved. Never peed in the house again. These corrections were coupled with tons and tons of praise and food rewards when they peed/pooped outside. They are not hand shy, this didn't break any bonds or trust, and those who say different are more worried about political correctness than effective training. I am all about positive training, operant conditioning and am not an "old school" compulsion oriented trainer. However, for this issue, I believe (and have the results to prove it) that it is an effective method of fixing this problem WHEN DONE CORRECTLY. My point about inconsistent results is that by not correcting this inside, you may get your dog to poop outside but when you're gone he may once again so inside rather than hold it because he still hasn't been told it's not OK to go inside. Good luck. I won't belabor this point any longer.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Controlling the pup's environment so that it has no option but to go outside is ideal. But when you see this happen in the house (and when it happens, it's YOUR fault), it has to be corrected.


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## jeffnmel (Jul 11, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies! Lot of good info here. I'll try to remember to update this post as we move forward. Thanks again!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If you catch a dog eliminating in an inappropriate place, pick him up the scruff and say, "NO," you may get a dog who doesn't eliminate in an inappropriate place. Or, you may get a dog who is fearful of one or more of the following
- hands
- people reaching for him
- the person who scruffed and scolded him
- people who resemble of the person who scruffed and scolded him
- people in general
- eliminating around people

To get to the end result of a dog who doesn't eliminate inside, _prevent_ him from eliminating inside. If he never has the opportunity to eliminate inside, it's just not something that occurs to him. My dog has never been "corrected" for eliminating inside, yet she doesn't unless she's sick.

You may have had dogs with harder temperaments. My dog doesn't seem phased by loud voices or firm handling, but other dogs are _very_ shy and/or fearful. Being rough with them would result in a shut down, terrified dog who needs significant counter-conditioning, time, and patience to trust people again.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

cookieface said:


> If you catch a dog eliminating in an inappropriate place, pick him up the scruff and say, "NO," you may get a dog who doesn't eliminate in an inappropriate place. Or, you may get a dog who is fearful of one or more of the following
> - hands
> - people reaching for him
> - the person who scruffed and scolded him
> ...


I'm still waiting to hear the advice on what to do when you witness the dog eliminate in the house. No poster - not one, has provided any manner of addressing the dog eliminating in the house. The ideal way to house train is to control the pup's environment so that it can ONLY go outside. But when the handler screws up, and the pup goes in the house, and you SEE this happening...I'm waiting to hear anyone provide a method of addressing this. Is it your position that you just watch and do nothing? 
My method worked for me and had no adverse consequences. My male dog is definitely softer and yet this did not impact him in any way in terms of fear or shyness. This advice was given to me by trainers with over 100 years of working dog breeding and training experience. If you go to a Petsmart trainer they will tell you different - probably to dress the dog up in a cute costume, but a head halter on it, and blow it kisses...


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> I'm still waiting to hear the advice on what to do when you witness the dog eliminate in the house. No poster - not one, has provided any manner of addressing the dog eliminating in the house. The ideal way to house train is to control the pup's environment so that it can ONLY go outside. But when the handler screws up, and the pup goes in the house, and you SEE this happening...I'm waiting to hear anyone provide a method of addressing this. Is it your position that you just watch and do nothing?
> My method worked for me and had no adverse consequences. My male dog is definitely softer and yet this did not impact him in any way in terms of fear or shyness. This advice was given to me by trainers with over 100 years of working dog breeding and training experience. If you go to a Petsmart trainer they will tell you different - probably to dress the dog up in a cute costume, but a head halter on it, and blow it kisses...


If you see them going, you should have seen them about to go and taken them outside. Why would you punish a puppy for your mistake?

That said, if you find that your puppy has gone, you should simply clean up the mess with an appropriate cleaner and go about your day.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> If you see them going, you should have seen them about to go and taken them outside. Why would you punish a puppy for your mistake?
> 
> That said, if you find that your puppy has gone, you should simply clean up the mess with an appropriate cleaner and go about your day.


No - We're past the part about "should have seen them about to go" - that's not responsive to the question. We can all agree it's your fault if he goes in the house and you missed the signal. The question was, if you screw up, and he goes, and you WITNESS it, what to do? So your position is to do nothing. Just watch him go...I think this is ineffective and will not result in Jeff's puppy being house trained. This violates the black and white rule. The dog has not been taught that going in the house is not good for him, because when he goes in the house you do nothing about it (again, when you witness it in progress - we can all agree if you don't catch him in the act then yes, do nothing and just clean it up).


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> No - We're past the part about "should have seen them about to go" - that's not responsive to the question. We can all agree it's your fault if he goes in the house and you missed the signal. The question was, if you screw up, and he goes, and you WITNESS it, what to do? So your position is to do nothing. Just watch him go...I think this is ineffective and will not result in Jeff's puppy being house trained. This violates the black and white rule. The dog has not been taught that going in the house is not good for him, because when he goes in the house you do nothing about it (again, when you witness it in progress - we can all agree if you don't catch him in the act then yes, do nothing and just clean it up).


Personally I might give a 'no' or some other verbal correction like 'ah ah', then immediately interrupt and take the puppy outside to finish.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Trevian96 said:


> I'm still waiting to hear the advice on what to do when you witness the dog eliminate in the house. No poster - not one, has provided any manner of addressing the dog eliminating in the house. The ideal way to house train is to control the pup's environment so that it can ONLY go outside. But when the handler screws up, and the pup goes in the house, and you SEE this happening...I'm waiting to hear anyone provide a method of addressing this. Is it your position that you just watch and do nothing?
> My method worked for me and had no adverse consequences. My male dog is definitely softer and yet this did not impact him in any way in terms of fear or shyness. This advice was given to me by trainers with over 100 years of working dog breeding and training experience. If you go to a Petsmart trainer they will tell you different - probably to dress the dog up in a cute costume, but a head halter on it, and blow it kisses...


Kirsten&Gypsy addressed this: "_You want an interruption_, not a negative association because of the very real risk of the wrong negative association."

If you catch puppy eliminating in the the house, interrupt him - not harshly, not by scruffing, not by yelling - a simple "hey" or "uh uh" will work. Take him outside to finish, reward him for going in the appropriate place, and then return inside. Calmly clean up any mess while puppy is occupied with a toy, crated, or being watched by someone else.

But really, as most folks have said, the focus should be on _making it impossible for the dog to eliminate in the house_. The dog should be in direct eye sight or confined until he's trustworthy.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Personally I might give a 'no' or some other verbal correction like 'ah ah', then immediately interrupt and take the puppy outside to finish.


And I don't think that's a bad tactic, but I believe that my technique works too. I'm not advocating for running over, grabbing the scruff, and shaking violently. Not at all. You hold the scruff, lift up just a little so that the pup's front paws are an inch or two off the ground, and then give the "No."
Posters alleging that this technique will create all sorts of problems are either misconstruing the technique or are in the politically correct camp that under no circumstances will ever touch the dog in any possible negative way.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> And I don't think that's a bad tactic, but I believe that my technique works too. I'm not advocating for running over, grabbing the scruff, and shaking violently. Not at all. You hold the scruff, lift up just a little so that the pup's front paws are an inch or two off the ground, and then give the "No."
> Posters alleging that this technique will create all sorts of problems are either misconstruing the technique or are in the politically correct camp that under no circumstances will ever touch the dog in any possible negative way.


I am in neither of those camps and don't advocate this method. So no, that's not the case.



cookieface said:


> Kirsten&Gypsy addressed this: "_You want an interruption_, not a negative association because of the very real risk of the wrong negative association."
> 
> If you catch puppy eliminating in the the house, interrupt him - not harshly, not by scruffing, not by yelling - a simple "hey" or "uh uh" will work. Take him outside to finish, reward him for going in the appropriate place, and then return inside. Calmly clean up any mess while puppy is occupied with a toy, crated, or being watched by someone else.
> 
> But really, as most folks have said, the focus should be on _making it impossible for the dog to eliminate in the house_. The dog should be in direct eye sight or confined until he's trustworthy.


Interrupt, thank you. I was trying to think of the word and it wasn't coming to me.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> And I don't think that's a bad tactic, but I believe that my technique works too. I'm not advocating for running over, grabbing the scruff, and shaking violently. Not at all. You hold the scruff, lift up just a little so that the pup's front paws are an inch or two off the ground, and then give the "No."
> Posters alleging that this technique will create all sorts of problems are either misconstruing the technique or are in the politically correct camp that under no circumstances will ever touch the dog in any possible negative way.


Scruffing a dog to the point of lifting his front feet off the ground, especially an older puppy who is heavier, CAN injure the dog. Momma dogs do not carry the pups around by the scruff once they are old enough to walk along on their own. Scruffing can cause neck injury, tearing of the skin, and even a detached EYE (riskier in brachycephalic breeds with shallow eye sockets).

If I catch a dog in the act of eliminating in the house, I give a light verbal interruption sound like "eep" or "ahh" -- not a shout, not a yell-- and then rush the dog outside and praise for finishing to eliminate outdoors. If I don't see it happen (such as when a puppy is crated while I am gone) then I ignore it and simply clean it up. It wasn't the puppy's fault that I wasn't home to take him outside.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

I gave a technique with a lot of experience behind it. Jeff can do whatever he'd like. I predict he will listen to other posters and in 6 months can start a thread on "only halfway potty trained at 14 months - help!"


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> I gave a technique with a lot of experience behind it. Jeff can do whatever he'd like. I predict he will listen to other posters and in 6 months can start a thread on "only halfway potty trained at 14 months - help!"


Considering almost all of the people on this forms have trained their dogs this way, not to mention thousands more people around the world, I'm willing to bet that you're wrong.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Considering almost all of the people on this forms have trained their dogs this way, not to mention thousands more people around the world, I'm willing to bet that you're wrong.


yeah but most people are idiots, as i witness every day seeing people with out of control dogs.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I think I'm probably in the "never lay a hand on your dog in a negative/painful way" camp, but that seems to be working for us! Three and a half months and she doesn't have accidents anymore, but it's because we watch her. When she was eliminating in the house, we interrupted like the other posters have said, took her out to finish, then praised. She likes going out now because she gets praise an attention, so eliminating outside = awesome. 

I can't even conceive of scruffing a dog for something like this. Especially not a larger puppy like ours. All I can see with that route is causing pain and fear. I wonder if maybe your dogs who never did it again after you scruffed them off the floor aren't just terrified of doing it in the house and getting scruffed again. That's not really teaching them TO go outside, it's teaching them that you're scary if they go inside.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Effisia said:


> I think I'm probably in the "never lay a hand on your dog in a negative/painful way" camp, but that seems to be working for us! Three and a half months and she doesn't have accidents anymore, but it's because we watch her. When she was eliminating in the house, we interrupted like the other posters have said, took her out to finish, then praised. She likes going out now because she gets praise an attention, so eliminating outside = awesome.
> 
> I can't even conceive of scruffing a dog for something like this. Especially not a larger puppy like ours. All I can see with that route is causing pain and fear. I wonder if maybe your dogs who never did it again after you scruffed them off the floor aren't just terrified of doing it in the house and getting scruffed again. That's not really teaching them TO go outside, it's teaching them that you're scary if they go inside.


Nope, wrong again. Folks, this is easy. 
1) You control the dog's environment so that it can only go outside.
2) You praise and reward and praise and reward and praise and reward for going outside.
3) BUT...if you WITNESS it go inside - which only happens if YOU, the HANDLER screwed up, then you correct it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> yeah but most people are idiots, as i witness every day seeing people with out of control dogs.


So you're saying that the people like us who have successfully potty trained dogs without risking injuring or scaring them are idiots? 

I see absolutely no need to do anything that could hurt a puppy or could damage the pup's trust in me in order to potty train a dog when there are easy to use, successful alternative methods that don't have that risk.



Trevian96 said:


> Nope, wrong again. Folks, this is easy.
> 1) You control the dog's environment so that it can only go outside.
> 2) You praise and reward and praise and reward and praise and reward for going outside.
> 3) BUT...if you WITNESS it go inside - which only happens if YOU, the HANDLER screwed up, then you correct it.


Why correct a dog for your screw up? Since it is a handler screw up, shouldn't the handler be the one getting corrected?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> Nope, wrong again. Folks, this is easy.
> 1) You control the dog's environment so that it can only go outside.
> 2) You praise and reward and praise and reward and praise and reward for going outside.
> 3) BUT...if you WITNESS it go inside - which only happens if YOU, the HANDLER screwed up, then you correct it.


We get what you're saying, we just disagree with your method of correction.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I guess the rest of us are just deluding ourselves into thinking we have housetrained pups. (Well, I'm still working since she's only 3.5 months, but everyone else with adult dogs.) They must be eliminating like crazy in invisible piles all over the house.

Interrupting and 'correcting' a dog while they are IN THE PROCESS of going in front of you does not have to (and shouldn't) include the possibility of pain or fear. A simple "uh-oh" and take them outside. No scruffing needed and the dog will be fine. And learn not to go in the house...


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Effisia said:


> I guess the rest of us are just deluding ourselves into thinking we have housetrained pups. (Well, I'm still working since she's only 3.5 months, but everyone else with adult dogs.) They must be eliminating like crazy in invisible piles all over the house.
> 
> Interrupting and 'correcting' a dog while they are IN THE PROCESS of going in front of you does not have to (and shouldn't) include the possibility of pain or fear. A simple "uh-oh" and take them outside. No scruffing needed and the dog will be fine. And learn not to go in the house...


I offered a technique that is effective and IMO does not harm the dog when the handler screws up and you witness the dog go in the house. If the other techniques work for you, that is great. The posters, however, who have attacked my technique as this awful, violent, "old school" hurtful punishment, are misguided, and my beef is with them. These are the politically correct Petsmart trainers who cringe at the notion of touching your dog. These are the people who swear by head halters. These are the people you see on Dog Whisperer with poorly behaved dogs. These are the people who go to dog parks and have coffee with their friends while their pushy, dominant dogs practice being pushy and dominant.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> I offered a technique that is effective and IMO does not harm the dog when the handler screws up and you witness the dog go in the house. If the other techniques work for you, that is great. The posters, however, who have attacked my technique as this awful, violent, "old school" hurtful punishment, are misguided, and my beef is with them. These are the politically correct Petsmart trainers who cringe at the notion of touching your dog. These are the people who swear by head halters. These are the people you see on Dog Whisperer with poorly behaved dogs. These are the people who go to dog parks and have coffee with their friends while their pushy, dominant dogs practice being pushy and dominant.


Um... I'm pretty sure no one here has been on Dog Whisperer...

Those are a lot of accusations you're making about people you don't know. I don't even drink coffee


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Hm, let's see how many of these apply to me! It's like a game.



> These are the politically correct Petsmart trainers who cringe at the notion of touching your dog.


Hm, nope, never trained at a big-box store, and also am not opposed to some mild corrections.



> These are the people who swear by head halters.


Nope. They have their place, but I prefer teaching a loose-leash walk on a flat collar, which I have done with all of my dogs.



> These are the people you see on Dog Whisperer with poorly behaved dogs.


Haha, HUGE no. I hate Cesar Millan, and I think you'll find that the majority of posters here have a similar view.



> These are the people who go to dog parks and have coffee with their friends while their pushy, dominant dogs practice being pushy and dominant.


Nope again. I don't use dog parks, but if I did, I'd be supervising my dog 100% of the time. I have taken Casper to some breed-specific meetups and let him off leash, and I made sure to call him away immediately when he got overstimulated or pushy.

Also, I don't drink coffee. 

That was fun. You're 0 for 4! 0 for 5 if you count the coffee thing. 

Trevian96, you are making a LOT of assumptions about people here -- that we're all less experienced than you, that we're all opposed to any kind of correction, and on and on. You should do some more reading before you try to insult people, because you're making yourself look uninformed and rude. Also, you keep saying that mother dogs grab their pups by the scruff and shake them as a disciplinary method, yet you haven't provided me with any studies backing that up. I've done a bit of looking, and the only quote I found about this from a reputable source was from Jean Donaldson, who said that mother wolves and dogs do _not_ scruff and shake their pups to discipline them.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

I said mothers HOLD (and carry) their pups by the scruff and carry them in that manner. Never said shake. Never said TO shake. Said hold, and slight lift.
The rude comments came from posters who essentially accused me of being a horrible, cruel monster for suggesting a simple technique used by top notch trainers with more years of experience than you all have combined, that I am sure of.

Reading the threads on this forum is an exercise in futility. I will do you all a favor and disappear, and you can continue to give bad advice to people who have all sorts of serious problems that they created with their dogs. Read the posts on this forum - major behavioral and aggression issues, followed by just awful, awful advice. In the end, I feel sorry for the dogs. These are the dogs that end up biting someone and get turned into shelters.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Trevian96 said:


> I said mothers HOLD (and carry) their pups by the scruff and carry them in that manner. Never said shake. Never said TO shake. Said hold, and slight lift.


Then if they only use that technique to carry puppies, why are you trying to use it to discipline puppies? If dogs don't discipline puppies that way (as you have claimed), then what is your technique even based on, and why do you expect a puppy to understand it?

If you haven't already vanished, why don't you tell us how many years of experience you have, and then we can see if you indeed have more than the rest of us, as you have also claimed? I gotta warn you, though, wvasko (who posted on the other thread and said that puppies can do no wrong) has been a pro trainer for 50 years, so "our side's" got an advantage right there.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> Read the posts on this forum - major behavioral and aggression issues, followed by just awful, awful advice. In the end, I feel sorry for the dogs. These are the dogs that end up biting someone and get turned into shelters.


Nope. Not really. Positive training techniques are far more likely to produce dogs which are calm, stable, have trust in their owners, are not fearful (fearful dogs are an increased bite risk), and enjoy training (which tends to mean productive training). These dogs don't end up in shelters for behavioral problems; they may land there due to circumstances outside of their control or their owners control like financial difficulties, health problems, losing pet-friendly housing etc, but calm and dedicated positive training DOES work and even when done "improperly" doesn't backfire with an injured or fearful dog like punishment can. 

I've gotten those dogs out of the shelter who have major behavioral issues, dog aggression and even one that was fear-based human aggressive. Guess how the FEAR-based human aggression was dealt with? By creating trust via positive training. 

Yep, I will just a prong collar or a leash correction under certain circumstances. So I'm not "purely positive" but NOT on puppies. Never on puppies, never on fearful dogs, never on dogs that don't already know the command or behavior and never for fear or aggression. Aggression begets aggression.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> Yep, I will just a prong collar or a leash correction under certain circumstances. So I'm not "purely positive" but NOT on puppies. Never on puppies, never on fearful dogs, never on dogs that don't already know the command or behavior and never for fear or aggression. Aggression begets aggression.


This deserves a +1 or Like. 

Also remember that most people who are not regular posters come here LOOKING FOR ADVICE because they already have a problem. Not because we made the problem. I don't think many of our regulars have dogs who have major issues, at least not that didn't come that way.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> This deserves a +1 or Like.
> 
> Also remember that most people who are not regular posters come here LOOKING FOR ADVICE because they already have a problem. Not because we made the problem. I don't think many of our regulars have dogs who have major issues, at least not that didn't come that way.


Agreed. Most of the problems that are discussed are from people who are relatively new to the forum, and often they have already tried training strategies that included positive punishment and negative reinforcement. The regulars here (the ones with several thousand posts) have well-trained, stable, accomplished dogs. When they have problem dogs, it's usually because they have taken in a dog from a bad situation and are actively working to repair damage that has been done.

And back to the OP, the biggest issue in the original situation is that the dog is allowed to have accidents in the house. The way to correct that is to _prevent more accidents_ and break the association of inside equals potty place.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I wonder if Trevian96 walks into a body shop and complains about how the mechanics broke all the cars... because that makes about as much sense as blaming us for all of the threads in this forum from newbies asking for help with their dogs' behavioral issues.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Trevian96 said:


> Reading the threads on this forum is an exercise in futility. I will do you all a favor and disappear, and you can continue to give bad advice to people who have all sorts of serious problems that they created with their dogs. Read the posts on this forum - major behavioral and aggression issues, followed by just awful, awful advice. In the end, I feel sorry for the dogs. These are the dogs that end up biting someone and get turned into shelters.


Happy trails.

If you're going with the "they aren't suggesting things I'd try, therefore they are stupid and wrong" methodology - then it's best to walk away.

And just because an experienced person said it - it doesn't make it the be-all gospel truth and any disagreement or daring to try/suggest/do something different is equal to heresy. I'm sure there's experienced and talented trainers that would disagree with your position.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> Controlling the pup's environment so that it has no option but to go outside is ideal. But when you see this happen in the house (and when it happens, it's YOUR fault), it has to be corrected.


If it's "YOUR fault" as you say, why on Earth would you punish the pup? Doesn't make sense. Just because scruffing your dogs worked and it didn't freak them out is NOT proof that it's an appropriate technique.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> Nope, wrong again. Folks, this is easy.
> 1) You control the dog's environment so that it can only go outside.
> 2) You praise and reward and praise and reward and praise and reward for going outside.
> 3) BUT...if you WITNESS it go inside - which only happens if YOU, the HANDLER screwed up, then you correct it.


If "you, the HANDLER, screwed up" then the "correction" should be given to the handler,  not the pup, as the handler is the guilty party.
Amazing that all.of us have properly potty trained pups, despite our idiotic lack of correction.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Trevian96,

The problem with recommending aversive techniques (i.e. punishment, like scruffing in this case) is that:

1) *Dogs handle punishment in different ways*. Your scruffing of a puppy after an accident might not faze your German shepherd, but it might very well terrify my border collie. Or the OP's shih Tzu. 
2) *People interpret/carry out the punishment differently*. You might lift the pup gently and slightly off the ground and call it scruffing; some else might yank a puppy roughly and high in the air and call it scruffing.

Your technique may have worked for _you_. But there is risk in recommending it to someone else for use on a different dog. There is a positive technique that, if used correctly, accomplishes the same goal, but without any of the significant risks of your technique.

My dog has been raised almost entirely on positive methods and she is VERY well-trained. I had two compliments from complete strangers at the park today relating to how attentive she was to me and how well-mannered. And though I'm silly for housebreaking without correction apparently, my dog is also completely housebroken. Somehow! Haha.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

I'll make one final comment and then I'm done because I am just exhausted with this.
Here are the facts:
1) Jeff posted a note regarding having difficulty house training his 8 month old puppy. In particular, the dog poops in the house, will go outside to pee, but continues to poop in the house.
2) My assumption, and I believe a reasonable one, was that Jeff used the traditional methods when trying to house train his puppy.
3) There is no dispute that the ideal way to house train a puppy is to control it's time and watch it very carefully so that you take it out when it needs to go, and it effectively has no choice but to go outside. That is ideal. Nobody disputes that.
4) There is no dispute that when possible, it is best to train a puppy using positive reinforcement and to avoid any type of correction or punishment. Nobody disputes that.
5) My very simple suggestion to Jeff was that if these traditional methods were not effective for him, the next step in my opinion was to use the technique I described. I am not alone in holding that opinion. It is held by trainers I respect very much because they have the experience to back up the things they say. 
6) However, due to the poor reading comprehension skills of many of the posters, my explanation of the technique was misconstrued, twisted and turned, and I was challenged to find studies that show that shaking a puppy is what mothers do, despite having never ever...not once, ever used the term "shake" in any of my posts. What I said during that portion of our "debate," was simply that a mother will pick up a puppy by its scruff. As such, being held momentarily by the scruff is not a foreign concept to puppies. Ever had to hold your dog for a quick second when it didn't have a collar on? What did you hold. THE SCRUFF. Ever see a Vet hold a dog that doesn't have a collar on? Where do they grab? The SCRUFF. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the mere mention of the word "scruff" sent you all into a frenzy. 
7) My assertion was that if traditional, positive methods had failed, it was time to implement a correction here, in the form of catching his puppy in the act, taking hold of its scruff, and giving it a firm "no." Not all dogs are created equal in terms of intelligence, and some just don't "get it" during things like house training.
8) My posts elicited all sorts of responses, nearly all of which indicated to me, very clearly, that the posters were missing the very simple points I had made, or had added things to me post (in their minds) that were not said (such as this whole notion of a "shake").
9) I have an undergraduate degree as well as a law degree, and I believe I express myself clearly and effectively. As such, if you misunderstood what I wrote, that is probably attributable to your reading comprehension skills rather than my writing.
10) A reasoned, sensible response to my suggestion could simply have been "I disagree with that method, and I offer the following alternative regarding house training a puppy that isn't getting it"...
11) Instead, numerous posters elected to repeat the same thing over and over again. Such as, watch the puppy, take it outside immediately, don't let this happen in the house, etc etc etc. All of those things we all know and agree on.
12) I was attempting to offer Jeff an ALTERNATIVE idea since the whole reason he posted to begin with was because he has a PROBLEM with house training. 
13) This has been incredibly frustrating because it's like trying to communicate with people speaking another language, and for that reason, I'm done.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You said you scruffed baby (8-9 weeks old) puppies as punishment for peeing in the house, as a first-line training method. That does not sound like you were recommending it as a last-resort action. Unless my reading-comprehension skills have failed so much that I can no longer read .

Also, if you are going to argue that it isn't meant as a punishment, then what's the point? If it isn't meant to be scary or painful or otherwise aversive, then there's absolutely no reason for it, except perhaps to release the owner's frustration. And there's no reason to punish a puppy if you, the owner, have failed in some way.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Do you think that none of us have degrees? I have a four-year honours journalism degree. I don't mention it here because it has _nothing to do with dog training_, and it doesn't make me more intelligent than everyone else.

So, fine, you didn't say shake. But you DID say:



> [Mother dog] uses the technique to discipline the pups in general. Has nothing to do with peeing. The technique is effective when properly used by humans when witnessing the pup go in the house.





> BUT...if you WITNESS it go inside - which only happens if YOU, the HANDLER screwed up, then you correct it.


First of all, mother dogs only lift very young pups by the scruff to move them. They do not use this as a disciplinary tactic. So why on earth would you even consider using it as a disciplinary tactic? If you base your training methods on what mother dogs do (which is problematic in itself, because humans are not dogs and dogs know that), then why would you expect a puppy to understand that this lift is punishment? What's the point of it at all?

Secondly, if the handler is the one at fault, why does the puppy need a correction? That just makes no sense at all.

Also, calm down, man. You keep making hyperbolic statements claiming we're attacking you and calling you an animal abuser. No one has said anything of the sort. No one here is "in a frenzy." We just think that your technique is misguided and useless, and you apparently can't handle people disagreeing with you. And if anything, we're amused by _your_ freakout.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> You said you scruffed baby (8-9 weeks old) puppies as punishment for peeing in the house, as a first-line training method. That does not sound like you were recommending it as a last-resort action.


With MY shepherds, if I caught them in the act, I would walk over, hold the scruff of the neck, and give a firm "no." 
That's a decision I chose to make in training my own dogs and they grew up to be wonderful, happy adults.
My recommendation to Jeff was to use that technique in the face of not being able to house train them with purely positive methods.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Super. Why did YOU make the choice to punish baby puppies for your own failings?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Trevian96 said:


> Reading the threads on this forum is an exercise in futility. I will do you all a favor and disappear, and you can continue to give bad advice to people who have all sorts of serious problems that they created with their dogs.





Trevian96 said:


> I'll make one final comment and then I'm done because I am just exhausted with this.


Every single time. Does no one actually mean it when they flounce off anymore? 



> With MY shepherds, if I caught them in the act, I would walk over, hold the scruff of the neck, and give a firm "no."


You forgot the lifting part, which is the harmful part (once a puppy is larger and heavier). Or are you going to claim you don't do that, now, either?


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> I'll make one final comment and then I'm done because I am just exhausted with this.


Aww don't leave. It's good entertainment op2:


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

What's amazing to me is that you all have this incredible, collective wisdom yet not a single poster, NOT ONE OF YOU, has offered Jeff a solution to his problem other than what we already know and what has already been tried. You love to state the obvious, but you have no answer to the original question.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Super. Why did YOU make the choice to punish baby puppies for your own failings?


Because I wanted "Willowy" to get all worked up about it, that's why. I wanted to give this incredibly lame forum something to go nuts about, so you could call repeat the same garbage over and over and talk about how wonderful your dopey dogs are. That's why.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you can't handle an Internet debate without resorting to insults and untrue statements, I'm worried about your future as a lawyer.

I also wonder why, if we're all so "lame" and uneducated, you even care what we think of you or your training methods.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Cool, that's the most fun . 

Seriously, though, it's just not good advice. And several people did recommend getting the dog on a better schedule with better supervision. That's what it's all about, right? Not owners releasing their frustration on their dogs just because they (the owners) aren't consistent.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> If you can't handle an Internet debate without resorting to insults and untrue statements, I'm worried about your future as a lawyer.



I appreciate your concern. Go Maple Leafs.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't know if it's been explained or not... but, uh.. Trevian..? How on earth did you potty train an 8 week old puppy within 48 hours? That's physically impossible.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Cool, that's the most fun .
> 
> Seriously, though, it's just not good advice. And several people did recommend getting the dog on a better schedule with better supervision. That's what it's all about, right? Not owners releasing their frustration on their dogs just because they (the owners) aren't consistent.


Ok, that's fine. You're allowed to disagree. I disagree with you, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The real victim is this is Jeff, because in 6 months his dog is still going to be shi**ing in the house lol listening to this board


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

jeffnmel said:


> It varies, though my fiance will stand out there with him for 5-10 minutes, *only to have him sneak off and poop in the house as soon as her back is turned.*





Trevian96 said:


> I'll make one final comment and then I'm done because I am just exhausted with this.
> Here are the facts:
> 1) Jeff posted a note regarding having difficulty house training his 8 month old puppy. In particular, the dog poops in the house, will go outside to pee, but continues to poop in the house.
> *2)My assumption, and I believe a reasonable one, was that Jeff used the traditional methods when trying to house train his puppy.
> ...





Trevian96 said:


> What's amazing to me is that you all have this incredible, collective wisdom yet not a single poster, NOT ONE OF YOU, has offered Jeff a solution to his problem other than what we already know and what has already been tried. You love to state the obvious, but you have no answer to the original question.


In his second post, the OP stated that the puppy will sneak off and poop while his fiance's back is turned. So no, he and his fiance weren't following the standard advice of keep your eyes on the puppy. 

I suggest that the ones who gave the advice of "watch the puppy at all times to prevent accidents" aren't the ones with reading comprehension difficulties.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I don't know if it's been explained or not... but, uh.. Trevian..? How on earth did you potty train an 8 week old puppy within 48 hours? That's physically impossible.


Well, then Samson was a magical puppy, because he never pooped in the house. EVER. And he only peed once. Now, in fairness, there was someone to take the dogs out every 3-4 hours as puppies, but when he needed to go he whined and went to the door. I don't know what to tell you. Good genes I think.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

cookieface said:


> In his second post, the OP stated that the puppy will sneak off and poop while his fiance's back is turned. So no, he and his fiance weren't following the standard advice of keep your eyes on the puppy.
> 
> I suggest that the ones who gave the advice of "watch the puppy at all times to prevent accidents" aren't the ones with reading comprehension difficulties.


Ah, Cookieface strikes again!! Me no read good, Cookieface. Me sorry. Cookieface right.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You can train yourself to take the puppy out a lot. But (as with human babies), before a certain age, elimination is basically an automatic function like breathing. For human babies, their bladder releases about once every hour. Their conscious brain is not in control of this until they're about 18 months old (varies depending on the individual). You can teach the puppy (or baby) to alert you to when their bladder is going to release, but they can't prevent it from releasing. It's just simple physiology.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Incidentally I just read a scholarly study that says mothers DO NOT scruff their pups. I was mistaken. My apologies. The study said that when she needs to discipline or move her pups, the mother will either call Cookieface or Crantastic on the phone to ask for training advice. No bs.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm kind of sad because there's probably going to be a ban happening soon with all the insults flying, but this is entertaining to read.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

ireth0 said:


> I'm kind of sad because there's probably going to be a ban happening soon with all the insults flying, but this is entertaining to read.


I'm only here for the show.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I'm kind of sad because there's probably going to be a ban happening soon with all the insults flying, but this is entertaining to read.


I'm working towards the ban. Then I will know I really succeeded at this. It would be nice like getting kicked out of special ed.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Every dog matures physically and mentally at a different rate. The techniques recommended here by the majority of posters WILL work if diligently and consistently applied. The age that a pup is totally reliable will vary, just like toilet training for children occurs at different ages: even among siblings who are "trained" in the exact same manner.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

You should read the "old school" thread. It's even more ridiculous. Someone actually compared the scruff technique to threatening the pups life


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> I'm working towards the ban. Then I will know I really succeeded at this. It would be nice like getting kicked out of special ed.


I'm just curious... why do you presume everyone here is uneducated and inexperienced in what they give advice on?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

When someone can't or won't follow the tried-and-true, positive methods for housetraining, of course their puppy is not going to be trained quickly and easily. There's not much we can do besides reiterate the advice (I always link people to renowned veterinary behaviorist Ian Dunbar's Errorless Housetraining protocol). 

In general here at DF, we don't like to suggest anything but positive techniques regardless of what we ourselves do, because we have no way of knowing that the advice-seeker will be able to correct properly. In this specific case, there's no use for corrections anyway. Even wvasko, who uses aversives (and has been training dogs for 50 years) has said many times that puppies can do no wrong.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Shell said:


> Every dog matures physically and mentally at a different rate. The techniques recommended here by the majority of posters WILL work if diligently and consistently applied. The age that a pup is totally reliable will vary, just like toilet training for children occurs at different ages: even among siblings who are "trained" in the exact same manner.


Another unresponsive useless post. Blah blah blah the techniques will work. And if they don't? Ya got nothin. Just like the rest of em.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I'm just curious... why do you presume everyone here is uneducated and inexperienced in what they give advice on?


Because the responses are completely unresponsive.
It's the equivalent of me asking you, "do you want steak or chicken for dinner," and you answering, "my favorite color is blue."


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Trevian96 said:


> I'm working towards the ban. Then I will know I really succeeded at this. It would be nice like getting kicked out of special ed.


You can protest all you want, but the fact that you keep posting here, trying desperately to hurt our feelings, just proves that you really care what we think.

(For the record, most of us love threads like this. We find them fun. So I'm not complaining.  )


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Trevian96 said:


> Another unresponsive useless post. Blah blah blah the techniques will work. And if they don't? Ya got nothin. Just like the rest of em.


I ran a rescue for a decade. I had roughly 200 dogs, straight out of the shelter, in my home for foster. I housebroke them ALL with those techniques. If they don't work? No one's got anything that will. 
If you can't housebreak a puppy, without a history of being a mill dog or trained to live in crap, without aversives then you are *WORTHLESS* as a trainer.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> When someone can't or won't follow the tried-and-true, positive methods for housetraining, of course their puppy is not going to be trained quickly and easily. There's not much we can do besides reiterate the advice (I always link people to renowned veterinary behaviorist Ian Dunbar's Errorless Housetraining protocol).
> 
> In general here at DF, we don't like to suggest anything but positive techniques regardless of what we ourselves do, because we have no way of knowing that the advice-seeker will be able to correct properly. In this specific case, there's no use for corrections anyway. Even wvasko, who uses aversives (and has been training dogs for 50 years) has said many times that puppies can do no wrong.


Well me here at DF DID suggest a negative consequence for Jeff's shi**ing dog problem and I have 150 years of dog training (just in the last week) so that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> (For the record, most of us love threads like this. We find them fun. So I'm not complaining.  )



DITTO! It's Friday night. I'm flooded in and cable's crappy. This is as good as it's getting for my entertainment.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If they don't work, either the human is not on top or things or the dog has a medical problem.

I even found an article where Brad Pattinson of all people said never to scruff a puppy and to always use two hands to lift a puppy safely and take him quickly outside.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

Trevian96 said:


> You should read the "old school" thread. It's even more ridiculous. Someone actually compared the scruff technique to threatening the pups life


The OP in "old school" said he smacked his dog for going in the house and then locked it in its crate. I said this was cruel and inhumane and that he shouldn't own a dog. 
Then I was told my technique was just as bad and was the equivalent of basically attempting to kill the dog.
THIS FORUM IS A JOKE


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I respect that you have a different opinion, man. That you've successfully trained your dogs on x method and recommend it to the OP it as an alternative. I understand what you're saying. I just adamantly disagree that x method is worth recommending, even if it worked for you. 



> 9) I have an undergraduate degree as well as a law degree, and I believe I express myself clearly and effectively. As such, if you misunderstood what I wrote, that is probably attributable to your reading comprehension skills rather than my writing.


Since the rest of the posters in this thread are in rough agreement, I'd say the misunderstanding here likely lies with the one outlier - you. I really don't mean to be snarky, but I am constantly amazed by the occasional threads that end up this way. That is, with one person against everyone, that one person swearing that EVERYONE ELSE is wrong/confused/stupid. The more logical conclusion is that YOU are the person either expressing yourself poorly or lacking in reading comprehension skills. 

By the way, I also have a degree. And my degree is actually fairly relatable to the topic at hand.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> DITTO! It's Friday night. I'm flooded in and cable's crappy. This is as good as it's getting for my entertainment.


All of my summer shows are on early in the week, all my friends are working, and it's too hot right now to go for a walk. DF is my entertainment, and the past couple of weeks, it's definitely been providing!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Trevian96 said:


> I'm working towards the ban. Then I will know I really succeeded at this. It would be nice like getting kicked out of special ed.


Congratulations, you just got your wish.


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## Trevian96 (Jul 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> DITTO! It's Friday night. I'm flooded in and cable's crappy. This is as good as it's getting for my entertainment.


You must be in Calgary? I worry about the Flames. You let Iginla walk, and you basically do nothing in free agency other than let Alex Tanguay go. Ugh, another historically bad season. Can you at least get Senators games out there?



Kuma'sMom said:


> Congratulations, you just got your wish.


But how will I communicate with all my new friends?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> All of my summer shows are on early in the week, all my friends are working, and it's too hot right now to go for a walk. DF is my entertainment, and the past couple of weeks, it's definitely been providing!


I went on vacation for a bit (literally and metaphorically) and came back to this. The only thing that would be better is a lot of new puppies, and I think we have some of those coming in the next couple weeks.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

This thread reminds me of this classic Cracked feature: http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/

I think our pal here hit several of those.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> I went on vacation for a bit (literally and metaphorically) and came back to this. The only thing that would be better is a lot of *new puppies,* and I think we have some of those coming in the next couple weeks.


Wot wot? I demand details, ma'am.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Wot wot? I demand details, ma'am.


Not me! OH GOD NOT ME! Just members who have puppies coming home from breeders.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Not me! OH GOD NOT ME! Just members who have puppies coming home from breeders.


Oh bummer. I was hoping this might be a rat terrier related news blip. Though I know you're up to your ears in puppy craziness!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Oh bummer. I was hoping this might be a rat terrier related news blip. Though I know you're up to your ears in puppy craziness!


Frost is due to be bred in a few months, so I can post pictures without going insane? 

Because my puppy is now 80lbs and bit me on the butt so hard I'm sitting weird. And we were doing so well.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You know what, you guys? I have been around a lot of puppies, and I can't say I've ever actually seen a mother dog pick up a puppy by its scruff and carry it. Cats, yes, often... but I haven't seen a dog do it. And I can't even find a video of a dog doing it. Can someone find one?

I knew that the shaking thing was a myth, but is the carrying by the scruff thing a myth, too?

This is the closest I found, and she just grabs the whole pup in her mouth.






Ah, here's another. Same thing:


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4dtikepOhU

Can't embed, though.

(4ish week old chi pup with mom)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I think momma dogs pretty rarely carry their pups around and only do it when the pups are really small, before they can toddle around and before they are too heavy and it becomes a risk to their necks. But I've never been around pups under 8 weeks, so it is second hand knowledge.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4dtikepOhU
> 
> Can't embed, though.
> 
> (4ish week old chi pup with mom)


She's got it more by the back fur! I wonder if she just can't fit her mouth around it to carry it like the ones in my post, haha.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> She's got it more by the back fur! I wonder if she just can't fit her mouth around it to carry it like the ones in my post, haha.


Honestly, most of the time I see dogs carrying older puppies, they just grab some of the loose skin somewhere along their back and go. cats tend to be a little more specific in how they pick them up. Cats are also, IMO, more WILLING to cart their kittens around. Dogs, something's going on if they're moving puppies.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> I'll make one final comment and then I'm done because I am just exhausted with this.
> Here are the facts:
> 1) Jeff posted a note regarding having difficulty house training his 8 month old puppy. In particular, the dog poops in the house, will go outside to pee, but continues to poop in the house.
> 2) My assumption, and I believe a reasonable one, was that Jeff used the traditional methods when trying to house train his puppy.
> ...


In your lengthy summary of this thread, you neglected to include the part where you implied that most of us are idiots for not realizing that we need to correct or punish our puppies for our own mistakes. You also left out the part where you flaunted the fact that you have more experience than we do, and implied there was something wrong with not wanting to lay hands on our dogs.

I will speak for myself, no, what the heck, I will take the liberty and speak for lots of us when I sayi don't think we "misconstrued " or misunderstood what you were suggesting. I wasn't confused about whether you recommended 'shaking' or simply holding the do by the scruff. The point I got from your suggestions was that the OP should grab the pup by the scruff, hold ot up, give it a firm no, and rush it outside. I didn't infer that you did this violently, or that you shook your dog.
I just plain don't agree with it.

So, there are those that understood you perfectly and still choose to disagree.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Honestly, number one sign of an arrogant jerk, no matter what the topic:
> 
> If you understood me, you'd agree with me. Since you don't agree with me, you must be too stupid to understand!


That's exactly the type of lawyer I just love going up against in court


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Shell said:


> That's exactly the type of lawyer I just love going up against in court


If I ever went to court, I really to hope to have a lawyer like him ---- on the other side.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

To be fair, he never said he was an actual lawyer, just that he had a law degree (and was therefore better educated than all of us).


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Trevian96 said:


> What's amazing to me is that you all have this incredible, collective wisdom yet not a single poster, NOT ONE OF YOU, has offered Jeff a solution to his problem other than what we already know and what has already been tried. You love to state the obvious, but you have no answer to the original question.


What with your advanced intelligence and degrees, you may not remember, or even be aware, but not everyone that starts a thread to ask a question knows the basics, which you seem to think are obvious. Lots of folks that ask for help have limited experience and/or knowledge of current dog training strategies.
So, yes, lots of us will post things that are intended to educate (if the folks didn't already know these things) or remind (if folks knew but maybe weren't putting that knowledge to use), or elaborate. And, really, some folks know things, but don't go about applying the techniques correctly. For instance, we have heard many times of people saying they DO watch their puppies, but somehow they manage to sneak away and poop. In that case, someone may understand they have to supervise, but just not realize what exactly that entails. 
An example would be that the OP stated that the pup seemed to know he was doing something wrong. That os incorrect, and some of us posted as much.

So, please don't be offended if there is a lot of repetitive information that you consider basic, or obvious. Some folks need the information or they need it elaborated on.

I hope my bachelor's degree and Master's degree weren't a waste of time.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

doxiemommy said:


> I hope my bachelor's degree and Master's degree weren't a waste of time.


Well, they're no law degree, so you are clearly unqualified to give advice about dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Well, they're no law degree, so you are clearly unqualified to give advice about dogs.


I trained Chester to shake "left" and "right" paws. One of my friends- an attorney- was visiting and wanted to try the trick. So he held out his hand while facing Chester and said "Right" 
Chester raised HIS right paw (aka the one opposite my friend's left hand). Friend says "ah ah, RIGHT!" Chester raised his right paw again and just held it up... at which point I reminded my attorney friend that it was in fact the dog's right paw, not the human's right side. 

Didn't learn that in law school...


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Another weird thread.... lol.

OP - Please, please, PLEASE, do NOT scruff your dog. The members here are wise in informing against that reaction for punishment. 
You will only manage to instill fear into your pup and that's not what you want... is it? 

Secondly - I haven't read this entire thread so pardon my ignorance if my response is now off topic, has already been mentioned or you've already decided how to handle the undesired behaviour but I do have a suggestion and I hope it will serve you well. 
How are you cleaning the area after the dog has used the bathroom there? I strongly urge you to make sure you are using a product geared towards pet messes, such as "Natures Miracle". Even if you have hardwood flooring and are steaming or mopping the area thoroughly after an accident, there will still be some scent trace leftover that will be easily picked up by your dogs sensitive nose, encouraging him to use that spot as a place to relieve himself. You need to make sure the spot is not just clean, but free of "PEE/POOP HERE" pharamones . 

As far as addressing the issue with your dog, have you thought about hanging a bell from the doorknob on your door? 
You can teach your dog to ring the bell when he needs to go out by treating him for ringing it and then treating him again when he relieves himself - be sure to treat directly after the action of peeing/pooping and not to bring him back into the house until at least 1 of the desired actions you want associated with the bell occur. 

Toby picked up on this system very quickly and we've never had problems since. Do not expect him to 'get it' overnight, you will have to treat him for the actions every. single. time. they occur for about 2 weeks to make sure he's got it down pat. To start him ringing the bell, show him to use his paw and help him ring it himself before each time you take him outside. But remember to only treat again once the desired action (peeing/pooping) has occured and NOT to bring him in the house until they have. Also keep in mind that your dogs bathroom schedule won't change much, depending on his food he should be fairly regular. If you're finding that most accidents occur in the morning, make sure you keep him outside longer in the morning. And as another poster suggested, a walk can often help get things moving along. When a horse is constipated - they make it walk and walk and walk. Same thing works to get the poops out of pretty much any other animal. 

Hope this helps!!



(You'll notice I make no mention of punishment - this is because when I trained Toby, there was no method of punishment used in housebreaking and now at 8 months old, he hasn't had an accident in a long time)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> First of all, mother dogs only lift very young pups by the scruff to move them.


And only because they don't have hands and arms to carry things with. A dog's mouth function as hands.

Humans have hands and arms. I can carry Wally without grabbing the scruff. And to respond to the "how does a vet pick up a dog without a collar?" the answer in Wally's case is...either she doesn't (she asks me to pick up Wally and hand him over because she doesn't want to freak Wally out) or another female vet, the vet techs and one of the male vets will gather him up by picking lifting him up from the underside and carry him in his/her arms. 

I have NEVER seen anyone vet, groomer, vet tech, groomer assistant, etc, actually grab a dog by his/her scruff to pick up/carry the dog.

Even when I've decided to pluck him up off the ground for safety, I cue "stay" and grab him by the sides firmly and lift him up.

Too bad he's banned - I don't get to show off all the mentally demanding things I do to make a living LOL XD, so I guess I'm still uneducated and stupid. Well, that ain't not no good.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Well, he can't log in and post, but you don't need to be logged in to READ threads, so he could still be possibly be reading.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm surprised by how adament he was that *his* method was the only method. 
I think this thread would have been far less dramatic if he had taken the advice of his 2nd or 3rd post where he says "lets just agree to disagree". 
Clearly he couldn't manage that because he spends the next 4 pages repeating his advice and why it's such a top notch response.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I sorta stopped listening after he called us all idiots and said everything we were doing is wrong. Ha. Of course, I don't have a lot of dog experience, which is why I come here to read the advice of so many knowledgeable people. I do have more degrees than him, though, does that make a difference?


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You know what, you guys? I have been around a lot of puppies, and I can't say I've ever actually seen a mother dog pick up a puppy by its scruff and carry it. Cats, yes, often... but I haven't seen a dog do it. And I can't even find a video of a dog doing it. Can someone find one?
> 
> I knew that the shaking thing was a myth, but is the carrying by the scruff thing a myth, too?
> 
> ...


It definitely could be a myth. I recall trying to lift my dog by the scruff of the neck when he was a young pup and all he did was yelp and cry when I tried to lift him by it.
Then again, I also recall my pup trying to correct his own mother for coming near me when we first met. lol


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Effisia said:


> I do have more degrees than him, though, does that make a difference?


Depends. If they weren't Law degrees, they are irrelevant.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

zhaor said:


> Depends. If they weren't Law degrees, they are irrelevant.


Oh, I can totally top a law degree. I have a culinary degree. Baking and pastry arts. Baked good always win! Especially in dog training debates... wait, what?


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm a highschool drop-out. 

Im the stupidest of all of us here according to Mr. Law degree. Probably be best if nobody ever takes my advice  lol


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

BostonBullMama said:


> I'm a highschool drop-out.
> 
> Im the stupidest of all of us here according to Mr. Law degree. Probably be best if nobody ever takes my advice  lol


I'm surprised you can even read and write!


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I'm surprised you can even read and write!


I know, pretty amazing. I was taught in a shed in the backyard.  bahahahahahaha


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't know if I'm more disappointed that I missed all of this or more amazed that I've managed to housetrain multiple dogs without corrections.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I was disappointed that you missed it, sassafras! I was hoping you'd show up when we were in the thick of it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Sadly, I was otherwise occupied.


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## SquareDorito (Jul 8, 2013)

Can anyone help? I'm having the same problem as OP with a Yorkie. She's been pooping inside lately. For a while she had no accidents, but shes starting to have them again. The thing is I trained her to ring a bell to go outside but she doesn't use it and goes inside. Just a while ago she was afraid of going outside and I concluded that it was moisture in the grass, it's been dry so that's not a problem anymore. She is 10 months old and I had been very consistent with her since I got her in the winter. I took her out constantly and always watched her. It isn't until recently I had decided I could trust her with the whole house and no accidents and it was fine for about a week then she went back to bad habbits.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

How old is your yorkie? Sometimes when dogs hit certain development stages, they can regress a bit. Go back to the basics for a while -- crate her or tether her to you so that you can keep an eye on her constantly. If she starts to assume the poop position, interrupt her and take her outside immediately. Praise heavily and treat for going outside. Sometimes dogs just need a reminder.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> How old is your yorkie? Sometimes when dogs hit certain development stages, they can regress a bit. Go back to the basics for a while -- crate her or tether her to you so that you can keep an eye on her constantly. If she starts to assume the poop position, interrupt her and take her outside immediately. Praise heavily and treat for going outside. Sometimes dogs just need a reminder.


Totally agree.
Toby regressed a couple months after initially being housebroken. We just went straight back to basics and he caught on quickly that we still wanted him to pee/poop outside.


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## SquareDorito (Jul 8, 2013)

That's a bit of a relief to hear. She is 10 months old, got her when she was 3 months old. She had gone a good amount of time with no accidents, and I have always rewarded her for going outside. Is this around am age where this happens?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, you're in the teenage stage right now! Just go back to basics and she should catch on quickly. Also, dogs don't generalize that well, so it's possible she could have been housetrained in the part of the house she was initially confined to, and not in the rest of the house (I have known dogs who would sneak down to the basement to pee, for example, because they didn't think of the basement as being part of the house). Keep a constant eye on her (crate her when you need a break), and make sure she's not able to poop anywhere in the house. Clean up the site of any accidents with an enzymatic cleaner like Nature's Miracle to remove any trace of the smell.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

SquareDorito said:


> That's a bit of a relief to hear. She is 10 months old, got her when she was 3 months old. She had gone a good amount of time with no accidents, and I have always rewarded her for going outside. Is this around am age where this happens?


Sometimes they also regress due to something changing in their schedule or something startling or scaring them outside, especially during a teenage fear stage.

Like one of my friend's dogs is about 4 years old and long age housetrained but a little while ago these blue jays in the yard dive bombed the dogs and scared them, every time the dogs went in the back yard, the blue jays would attack. The one dog started to poop inside again and wouldn't ask to go outside even once the birds were gone. No accidents in week now, she just needed a little potty training reminder and to get past her doggie PTSD of the yard 

New cats or dogs, new house, new person in the house, etc can all cause some regression too.


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## SquareDorito (Jul 8, 2013)

Awesome! Thank you! Do you think I should restrict her area again? Or just take her out more frequently like she isn't trained at all?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you don't want to crate, I'd restrict the area any time you can't be watching her (if you do want to crate, that's even better because dogs usually won't eliminate in a crate at all). Give her access to the rest of the house when you have a constant eye on her, and take her out more frequently so that she doesn't even get the chance to poop in there. This is probably the best way to make sure that she understands that the whole house is a "no-poop" zone.


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