# Maybe it's just me but..



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

There was a person in my comp obed class who was really roughing up their dog. Said person gave the dog very little praise/reward (I did not see them use food/toys even once to engage the dog even when the teacher called for games to be played) and was very heavy on correcting the dog. Now I don't want this to be a training debate so I feel it's necessary to add that the teacher even said that the person was being unfair to the dog by correcting without conveying clearly what was wanted (hence why the dog was messing up). The dog was stressed and distracted, sniffing on the stays and trying to interact with others.

I just kept thinking to myself, why is this person even bothering? They wore a scowl the entire class and the dog was clearly not enjoying himself either. 

It posed a sort of related question in my head. I do things with my dog because my dog WANTS to.. I have lots of trouble making my dog do a performance activity just because I said so. How do you feel about the whole thing? Does your dog's reaction to the activity at hand matter to you? It just wouldn't be fun for me if I had to pull teeth the entire time to get my dog to do something, the way this person seemed to be doing.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I am starting a formal obedience class tomorrow, and it's at an agility club and it's in their club rules that 'no harsh methods' will be allowed. 

For me it's definitely important that my dogs enjoy what we do. I even feel bad for dragging my puppy to classes because he gets carsick. He enjoys being in class, but every time we are driving there I question whether or not it's fair for me to drag him there just because I want to attend a class. I could train him at home and he wouldn't have to be carsick. I just hope he grows out of it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

This is NOT about the specific training methods, though.. it's more about the morale/psyche of both the dog and handler. I know trainers who use prong collars, e-collars, whatever, but the difference is their dogs are motivated and are happy to learn. What bugged me about this is that this person was really beating up on this dog and not offering any feedback or clear direction. Really not trying to help the dog at all.

For example.. if you don't have a good stay, don't walk across the room and push your boundaries on the first attempt just so you can go running back in to yank the dog's neck for sniffing. Help the poor dog out.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

A friend recently told me that she quit agility cold turkey the day her dog did this:
At a trial, she put the dog in a startline stay. When she released the dog, he ran out of the ring and straight into his crate. 

If the dog isn't having fun, then what's the point?


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## RomeoSnow (Dec 23, 2010)

If the owner is having a stressfull time the dog isn't going to be able to relax and get the work done. I sometimes get frustrated when teaching my 8monthold hid obedience and have to remind myself that he simply isn't trained for some of the things I'm asking him to do. I think that the dog should not be forced to do something that they hate IF the handler dose not have a good plan. Meaning that the dog might not like to play a certain game or perform a task at first, but if you have a plan that will get them to like it (or at least perform it without hating life) then I think that it is okay to force a dog to do something it doesn't like, for the greater good. But I mean it all depends on what the situation is. It sounds like the person in your class was just having a bad day.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I think that it is okay to force a dog to do something it doesn't like, for the greater good.


But agility, comp obedience, rally, etc. is NOT for the greater good. It enhances the life of the dog if the dog likes it and most handlers certainly enjoy training/competing, but it's not life or death or really critical for the dog. 

All dogs/handlers have to work through stress issues, myself included. But where is the cut off point? 

Why is a person with such a bad attitude, no plan, and a disinterested dog (likely due to the handler) even bothering to continue?

I have seen this person before and I will say that this is definitely not just a one day thing. Or even a one DOG thing.

I see it in agility, too. Handlers who are being so hard on their dogs despite the fact that it is THEM that's messing up the handling. These are the people who usually only come to class every so often, don't practice at home, etc. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that someone would want to toy with a dog sport if it's a stressor for them and they're making no progress nor trying to figure out how they can help their dog to succeed by handling and using body cues in specific ways.


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## dobedvm (Nov 1, 2010)

i think its going to depend on the dog and handler and each individual situation - i will honestly say that i absolutely do correct my dogs, i absolutely do stress them to some degree because showing and trialing IS stressful. i dont want the first time they feel stress from me or the environment to be the first time they go in the ring - then i get a dog that disengages from me and goes "WHOA i dont want this, what happened to fun?". but i want instead my dogs to learn that we can have fun even if there is stress, that stressful things can happen and we can work through them, and that if they trust me and they do things that they may not necessarily want to do, but do them because i ask them to do them, then they will get the reward (of some sort - food, toys, play, release from pressure). ive used everything from playful pinches and verbal no's to full forced yelling at my dogs (heck, this weekend i said "goddamnit" at rah when he blew the LAST GO OUT!!!!!! at the trial, i couldn't help it) and electronic collars. actually, the electronic collars are the least emotional correction, the yelling is actually when i lose my cool. just recently ive been working on berlin losing her attention on me when there's 5-10 other dogs on the floor and im at a distance and she misses me calling her for recalls, and when i go to correct that i will grab her collar and i LOVE that when i come back she is getting up and running to me and im telling her she's a BAD BAD GIRL and she jumps up and pushes her neck/collar into my hands so that i can give her a pop. i want my corrections clear and obvious for what they are for, and ideally motivating. but they can't always be - ill keep working and switching and motivating, interspersing games - but sometimes this isn't always going to be a fun game but keep with me and we will get to the fun


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

dobedvm said:


> i think its going to depend on the dog and handler and each individual situation - i will honestly say that i absolutely do correct my dogs, i absolutely do stress them to some degree because showing and trialing IS stressful. i dont want the first time they feel stress from me or the environment to be the first time they go in the ring - then i get a dog that disengages from me and goes "WHOA i dont want this, what happened to fun?". but i want instead my dogs to learn that we can have fun even if there is stress, that stressful things can happen and we can work through them, and that if they trust me and they do things that they may not necessarily want to do, but do them because i ask them to do them, then they will get the reward (of some sort - food, toys, play, release from pressure). ive used everything from playful pinches and verbal no's to full forced yelling at my dogs (heck, this weekend i said "goddamnit" at rah when he blew the LAST GO OUT!!!!!! at the trial, i couldn't help it) and electronic collars. actually, the electronic collars are the least emotional correction, the yelling is actually when i lose my cool. just recently ive been working on berlin losing her attention on me when there's 5-10 other dogs on the floor and im at a distance and she misses me calling her for recalls, and when i go to correct that i will grab her collar and i LOVE that when i come back she is getting up and running to me and im telling her she's a BAD BAD GIRL and she jumps up and pushes her neck/collar into my hands so that i can give her a pop. i want my corrections clear and obvious for what they are for, and ideally motivating. but they can't always be - ill keep working and switching and motivating, interspersing games - but sometimes this isn't always going to be a fun game but keep with me and we will get to the fun


What she said....

Right now, I am very fascinated by the relationship handlers/trainers have with their dogs and the result in the ring from that relationship. Are there heavy handed obedience handlers out there? You bet and I see it more often than not. Are there competition obedience people out there who act like getting high in trial/high combined is a life or death matter? I see it every trial. I think it depends on the person and the dog like dobedvm said. I have seen an older couple who have been extremely successful with rottweilers in obedience with less than rainbow and sparkles methods of training. Now they have Mals and that method of training is crashing and burning miserably...and they blame the dogs from two different breeders. There's another woman I know who is wickedly tough on her dogs (rotties and labs) and she gets to working on their UDX's and the dogs fry. 

Personally, I think a healthy balance of correction (when the dog truly knows it's job) which can produce some stress and therefore the dog can work through that stress (which is much needed in a trial situation) is helpful. I'm lucky that I have a dog that stresses up and will give me 500% instead of 100% at a show. Sometimes that works for us and sometimes it doesn't and I get errors of enthusiasm. Personally, I would much rather have that then someone who shuts down during off leash heeling. Been there, done that. But, as drivey as Lars can be...he loathes to be wrong and being wrong too much will make him shut down and give avoidence behaviors. So, I have to tweak training so he's not wrong time, after time, after time. 

There are a lot of people out there who are training dogs for different reasons...most of them aren't because they want the dog to enjoy it. I see a lot of people doing it to make them feel good about themselves over what they have accomplished with the dog. The longer you're in obedience, I'm sure you're going to see more of it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hang on a minute, though.. this has NOTHING to do with the fact that this person was using correction and EVERYTHING to do with this person's "attitude" about the whole thing. These were unfair corrections and no clear instructions to the dog as to what he was supposed to be doing.

It's more about the over all picture. For example, Marge was getting ready to break a stay to go steal someone else's food and I reminded her that that's not allowed (verbal plus tiny collar tug - all she personally needs). Was she enjoying that part of the class? No, not necessarily. But a) she was willing to work through it and b) she seemed to enjoy the rest of the class. It isn't going to be fun 100% of the time.. but it shouldn't be NOT fun 100% of the time either.

Whereas for this other team, everything was a struggle, neither dog nor handler looked to be enjoying themselves. And I have seen this person really beat up on their other dog who was totally stressed and shut down in practice to the point of refusing to move (for go outs, articles, etc). Not the "healthy" stress or "a little bit of stress isn't so bad" kind of thing. 



> There are a lot of people out there who are training dogs for different reasons...most of them aren't because they want the dog to enjoy it. I see a lot of people doing it to make them feel good about themselves over what they have accomplished with the dog.


That's sort of more what I'm getting at. Except this person didn't seem like they were feeling particularly good about themselves, either..

P.S. - Kim - will I see you Saturday?


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> That's sort of more what I'm getting at. Except this person didn't seem like they were feeling particularly good about themselves, either..


The one woman I mentioned with the rotties and labs who rules them in the ring with an iron fist comes to mind with this whole question. I (and others) think she is looking for a dog to make her an obedience super star. Once the dog she's currently working crashes and burns, she's got another puppy she's going to in turn ruin. She doesn't get it... at all. I will say, as a person...she's pretty friggin miserable and would sooner stab you in the back the second you turn around to walk away. 

Then I look at a fellow trainer where I teach who put an OTCH on a 2 YEAR OLD Flat Coat...she is a phenominal trainer and she has a wonderful relationship with her dogs. Each of her dogs have gotten an OTCH and she's a healthy mix of correction that fits the "crime", games, and praise. She wants to have the first OTCH/MACH/MH Flat coat. They are now working on the MACH and the MH...and I truly believe they will do it because the dog is (I think) 4 years old now. The woman above will never, ever be able to do what this lady does. 

There are a lot of people in dog sports who don't get dogs...or the common sense behind dog training. I attended a Michael Ellis seminar last weekend and a lot of what he says I do (but didn't realize at the time I was following his methods) and engagement stuff that made total sense to me. There were a lot of "a ha moments with the others in attendence who span AKC obedience to Mondio Ring to Schutzhund. Playing with you dog and getting them to engage with you was a foriegn concept to some. I couldn't imagine not being engaged with Lars in some way while we're working. But, a lot do.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> I just kept thinking to myself, why is this person even bothering? They wore a scowl the entire class and the dog was clearly not enjoying himself either.


Ahhh yes ... "the scowl" . I think I've witnessed that more times than I've ever cared to.

My feeling toward the grumpies ? ... 

Lighten up.

Giggle.

Get goofy, lol.



Personally, I try to smile as much as possible while training, and trialling too. Heck, even before the judge says "are you ready?" I begin to grin .

Body language is sooooo important to creating a willing partner. Kind of a no-brainer I figure, but unfortunately some people still don't get it


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

In our agility class there is one woman who is always grumping at her dog and blaming her dog for her errors. The dog has no enthusiasm but does what it is told because it is a very good dog. As fellow students (and the teacher), we have been gently prodding her into seeing that the mistakes are her own and the poor dog always does what she asks, even if it is the wrong thing. It is helping. The dog is starting to show more enthusiasm because it is not getting scolded for doing what it's told. The whole class is happier for it. It is no fun to see someone come down on their dog and not even seem to LIKE the dog. What's that the point? We should do these things because we love being with and training with our dogs!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

With the exception of recall and stays and any other command your personal situation calls for your dog to obey for the safety of life, no training is worth it if the dog isn't having fun. And really there isn't a whole lot of excuse for a dog that's miserable on a recall or stay, either. If you're going to muck those up too, might as well send the dog out to a board & train.

I can't stand when people never tell their dog when he's RIGHT. They're all over the leash pop (and this is disparaging, but it's often a poorly timed pop) but they can't spare a single sincere "Good dog."


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I can't stand when people never tell their dog when he's RIGHT.


This was just it.. she was giving the dog only negative feedback, never anything to let him know he was right. It just seemed like things could have been a lot more clear (and therefore productive/fun) for the both of them.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Was this happening during a class or an open practice? I am wondering why an instructor doesn't step in? I know some places including mine are pretty strict about this kind of stuff. Example: I had a student that had very unrealistic expectations of their dog, worse they also admitted to not doing their homework and NEVER trained at home. Then when their dog wasn't magically knowing everything, the owner would give corrections and get frustrated. After working with them for a long time and realizing they were not going to change..............they were fired as a student  My tolerance for that kind of garbage is kinda thin lol.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

She did, Lynn. The instructor told this person that they are not communicating clearly what they want and that she feels sorry for the dog.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> This is NOT about the specific training methods, though.. it's more about the morale/psyche of both the dog and handler. I know trainers who use prong collars, e-collars, whatever, but the difference is their dogs are motivated and are happy to learn. What bugged me about this is that this person was really beating up on this dog and not offering any feedback or clear direction. Really not trying to help the dog at all.
> 
> For example.. if you don't have a good stay, don't walk across the room and push your boundaries on the first attempt just so you can go running back in to yank the dog's neck for sniffing. Help the poor dog out.


This is where I'm really struggling. Tag doesn't seem to enjoy rally as much as he enjoys agility, and honestly if he's not enjoying it I don't think I should bother. I hate wasting my time, my trainers time, my money, and his time as well by asking him to do a ho-hum activity. That said, my last ditch effort is going to be pairing rally/obedience exercises with the reward being the opportunity to play on some agility stuff. So far he's sparking up, but he's ALWAYS been sparky at home and not in class. (He acts bored in class). I'm hoping pairing rally with agility will work out as well as pairing agility with food did.



MissMutt said:


> Hang on a minute, though.. this has NOTHING to do with the fact that this person was using correction and EVERYTHING to do with this person's "attitude" about the whole thing. These were unfair corrections and no clear instructions to the dog as to what he was supposed to be doing.
> 
> It's more about the over all picture. For example, Marge was getting ready to break a stay to go steal someone else's food and I reminded her that that's not allowed (verbal plus tiny collar tug - all she personally needs). Was she enjoying that part of the class? No, not necessarily. But a) she was willing to work through it and b) she seemed to enjoy the rest of the class. It isn't going to be fun 100% of the time.. but it shouldn't be NOT fun 100% of the time either.
> 
> Whereas for this other team, everything was a struggle, neither dog nor handler looked to be enjoying themselves. And I have seen this person really beat up on their other dog who was totally stressed and shut down in practice to the point of refusing to move (for go outs, articles, etc). Not the "healthy" stress or "a little bit of stress isn't so bad" kind of thing.


That IMO would be a ridiculously clear neon blinking light that something is wrong. I took a competition obedience class with Auz, for a _very_ short while. I pulled him because neither one of us was enjoying it. I personally don't need my blood pressure spiking and I also don't want to see my dog (hard OR soft) turn into a pile of jello because he made a mistake. 
Stress is indeed a part of life. But it's only fair if your dog is at a level that they can work through. If they get so stressed they can't even think...time to take a break. I dunno. I would have been upset had I seen that kind of handling in the name of an Almighty Ribbon.



MegaMuttMom said:


> In our agility class there is one woman who is always grumping at her dog and blaming her dog for her errors. The dog has no enthusiasm but does what it is told because it is a very good dog. As fellow students (and the teacher), we have been gently prodding her into seeing that the mistakes are her own and the poor dog always does what she asks, even if it is the wrong thing. It is helping. The dog is starting to show more enthusiasm because it is not getting scolded for doing what it's told. The whole class is happier for it. It is no fun to see someone come down on their dog and not even seem to LIKE the dog. What's that the point? We should do these things because we love being with and training with our dogs!


^This. When there's someone like that in class, the whole energy of the class changes. Last week at agility, I cued Tag to go into the tunnel. It was shaped like an L, but the end of the L was on the "wrong" side (that Tag is used to). I had to bring him around the outside of the tunnel to get him to the weave poles. Long story short, he shot out of the tunnel at the speed of sound...going in the wrong direction. The class erupted, laughing. (So did I). He took one jump, wheeled around like "OH HAI!" and flew back INTO the tunnel. I was in stitches. He shot out the end, glanced at me again (I was standing there beet red, trying to hard not to burst into laugh-induced tears), gave me that sparky look and shot through the tunnel YET AGAIN. The class was roaring. It was a riot. I don't take agility all that seriously. And, I LEARNED how to cue my dog into the tunnel and have him turn in the correct direction, and got a huge laugh and energy boost from the whole thing. Win win, imo


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Remmy still quite often gets the "zoomies" in Agility and the crowd just loves it as he is having so much fun. When he is like that, I just shrug my shoulders and wait for him to settle down. We only have one Agility trainer in our area and I am afraid she does not really want me in her classes as I am not "serious" enough. That is fine with me, Remmy has his two Starters Titles in Games and Standard, is working on his Advanced titles, and is in Masters in Gamblers and Jumpers, and we just have fun. With a more "serious" trainer, I am sure he would be a lot farther along but when you see him racing along, his ears flying and so happy, all you can do is laugh and say "go for it".


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

I have trained with a miserable trainer and it was not fun, nobody laughed or even smiled. I quit plus the training was bad. I do firmly believe that an instructor can set the tone of a class. Being friendly, smiling and joining in the fun but knowing when to tone it down and getting back to work. I have students that try to blame their dogs and sometimes it is the dog........but it is my job to help them fix why the dog is doing what it is doing. On the other hand, it is made very clear from the first interview what I allow and don't allow. If people need a couple of gentle reminders fine, if they have stepped far over the line, they are reminded of my policy and what the results are for continuing with what isn't allowed. Having said that, it is also not fun for someone's dog to be always being the one to disrupt the class and it isn't fair to the other students if more time is spent on that dog. I am certainly not talking about when our dogs have an off day, are struggling to learn something or do occasionally getting the zoomies. If it happens all the time, then maybe they would be better off in privates or another class.
The first time I went to Garrett's place for a seminar, we had to sign a separate waiver......stating that we would not give corrections, even a verbal, eh, eh. If we did, we would be warned once and then be asked to leave without a refund. Very, very clear as to what was allowed and not allowed.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

I was in an obedience class once where a woman was harshly correcting a dog that didn't need that kind of training. It was a very sensitive and well behaved doberman and the owner came down hard on her for the smallest infractions. The dog looked miserable and cowed all the time. I felt so bad for the dog.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread cause its a bit older but I really wanted to mention something...

Just because someone isn't smiling doesn't mean they aren't having a good time. Some people are shy, introverted, or just don't show their emotions much. I'm all three. I'm often so busy thinking of the task at hand that I don't think to smile. Don't get those people mixed up with genuine grumps who are taking it out on their dogs. The latter do need to be reminded not to do that, and probably confronted if they are really treating their dog unfairly. If a person is treating their dog right but they look unhappy, don't make assumptions, it might have NOTHING to do with the dog. You have no idea what goes on in people's personal lives. It's a big pet peeve of mine when people assume that other people are nasty just because they aren't outwardly smiley, cheerful, outgoing people. Please keep that in mind and don't label people without getting the whole story.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think it's easy to tell the difference between someone who is focused and disciplined and someone who is grumpy and harsh. At least for me it is. When I'm at a trial, I get like that.. to the point of walking straight past people I know without even seeing them there or hearing them say hello to me, lol.

In this case, I am quite sure that the handler is treating the dog "wrong" by providing no rewards and/or feedback for doing things correctly. Said person does not even bring treats or toys to class, even at the instructor's suggestion to do so. I'm NOT saying to not use corrections.. I AM saying that regardless of whether you are going to correct or not, I still feel the dog should be given some reward for a job well done.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Indigo said:


> I wasn't going to reply to this thread cause its a bit older but I really wanted to mention something...
> 
> Just because someone isn't smiling doesn't mean they aren't having a good time. Some people are shy, introverted, or just don't show their emotions much. I'm all three. I'm often so busy thinking of the task at hand that I don't think to smile. Don't get those people mixed up with genuine grumps who are taking it out on their dogs. The latter do need to be reminded not to do that, and probably confronted if they are really treating their dog unfairly. If a person is treating their dog right but they look unhappy, don't make assumptions, it might have NOTHING to do with the dog. You have no idea what goes on in people's personal lives. It's a big pet peeve of mine when people assume that other people are nasty just because they aren't outwardly smiley, cheerful, outgoing people. Please keep that in mind and don't label people without getting the whole story.


You make a good point. I know someone in one of my former classes who seemed snobby because she never said anything, never smiled, met your eyes, etc. Once she got comfortable being around me, she turned out to be a very nice person (just very shy/introverted). I used to be ridiculously shy, but dealing with people on a daily basis has kind of knocked that down a bit. I'm not exactly extroverted, but it's easier for me to walk into a crowd and be myself. If I keep a poker face while I'm training, Tag tends to lag/slow down, AKA not do what I want exactly how I want it. If I keep my body "loose" and flowing and natural, he does much better. I'm hoping I don't succumb to trial nerves to the point I move like a robot because I *know* my dog won't perform if I do. It's not easy remembering to relax and breathe sometimes!


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