# my dog and my son, biting issue



## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm having an issue with my dog and my nine year old son. She just won't respect him, and keeps drive by nipping at him. She has tore three pair of his pants this week. We all use the bite stops here technique and she has improved but not as much with Tom. What do you recommend?


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Dogs don't usually have the same type of relationship with kids as they do with adults. I'm not saying there can't be wonderful, awesome bonds, just that the nature of the relationship is different. Kids usually move faster, are louder, have higher pitched voices, and often move in a way that seem (to the dog) to be spontaneous or without warning. That makes them interesting in a different kind of way. Some dogs may see them more as someTHING to play with, because lots of the mannerisms of kids encourage play by being similar to how dogs play. For instance, kids being loud, well, dogs bark sometimes when they're in play mode. Also, the moving fast, that too, can be seen as play behavior, as in "come chase me". 

So, even though your son may be using the same techniques as you, simple mannerisms that are natural to kids may make it hard for your dog to not treat him as a playmate.

Also, what kind of dog? Is she trying to herd him?

Is your son able to take on some of the feeding responsibilities? That may help her associate him with a very important, valuable resource - food.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

Aussie, but I don't think she's herding, she's just being a snot. She loves to rip stuff and she's figured out if she grabs his pants at the knee and gives a sharp tug they give easily. Grrrr


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## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

It seems more like a dominance/pack order situation, but puppy? Size? Kid personality? Familiarity with dogs? Have your son train her. Give her treats for doing things. Feed her, etc. You could also look at getting the two of them into some obedience training.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

seaboxador said:


> It seems more like a dominance/pack order situation, but puppy? Size? Kid personality? Familiarity with dogs? Have your son train her. Give her treats for doing things. Feed her, etc. You could also look at getting the two of them into some obedience training.



We think alike. I'm enrolling them in 4H and when pup hits a year he can be her agility handler. I also taught him how to feed her a meal today so she can start learning he is also her caregiver.


I posted dog pics in the picture forum


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The whole "pack order" idea is incorrect (that article is great, but to put it very basically, wolves in a pack are not in constant competition for alpha status -- that idea was based on flawed research done on captive wolf packs in the 1930s, '40s, and '70s, mostly -- and dogs don't form packs like wolves do anyway, so the concept wouldn't apply to dogs). Even if it were true, dogs aren't stupid enough to think of humans as weird, almost-hairless, bipedal dogs. The dog doesn't think she's above the kid in any sort of hierarchy. Like others have said, kids move and sound different from adults (erratic movements, higher-pitched voices, more fun to chase), and up until now the kid hasn't been walking or feeding the dog, so the dog doesn't have the "good things come from this person" mentality with him that she has with adults. You're definitely on the right track with getting him to feed and handle the dog, though. Dogs are opportunists, and when the dog sees that good things come from the kid, she'll be more likely to work to do what he asks of her. 

Keep up the "bite stops here" techniques as well; try to make sure he doesn't squeal or anything when the dog bites, but simply turns around and ignores.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

dominance is a bunch of hooey. this is a WORKING/HERDING breed that needs a JOB. keep her on a long lead at all times, when she starts this business, tell her NO & take her somewhere boring & not fun for a time out (NEVER used her crate/sleeping area tho) google treibbal (i think thats how its spelled) i also had a "flirt toy" (pictured below with my then puppy, Josefina playing with it) when mine would go for pants/clothes (i have ACDs so i feel your pain) i would redirect them to something constructive before i would resprt to punishment or time outs. because you dont want to supress their natural instincts because that will only frustrate the the dog. 








-Josefina playing with a flirt toy.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

ajw said:


> What do you recommend?


Wait 1 year...
It takes time...
Thats pretty much all it takes.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

Roloni - I found myself saying that today, what Maya needs is some maturity . My son adores this dog, so please nobody think he isn't bonding. *I'm* the one getting irritated about the torn pants. He changes into already Aussie-fied pants when he gets home so we're preventing further frustration.

About the JOB thing...what is a safe job for a 4 month old Aussie to do? No livestock.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

If a dog was acting this way in my house and was old enough/hard enough/big enough, it'd be on a prong and leash and as soon as it did something like this, it would be corrected. 

The child training and feeding the dog is a great idea, but the dog isn't going to think about that as a herder when a kid goes running by. She needs to learn it's unacceptable, plain and simple. When she's calm, you and your son can both give her treats. You could also try your son walking her around on lead with treats; luring a heel almost, so it is reinforced that walking calmly next to him (instead of running and nipping) is what gives her pleasure.

eta; Just read she's 4 months old. I'd opt for a chain martingale instead of prong in this case. Still, light collar pop/correction.

As far as a job, she could wear a backpack for long hikes (with nothing in it at this point!) learn foundation agility flatwork with your son, learn tricks, etc. What does she already know? Right now my 17 week old Border Collie knows how to touch, sit, down, stay (for a short time), roll over, shake, other paw, high five, double high five, spin, and take a bow, along with a ton of loose lead training, just for some ideas! Training is the best way to wear out their minds!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> If a dog was acting this way in my house and was old enough/hard enough/big enough, it'd be on a prong and leash and as soon as it did something like this, it would be corrected.


Sounds like an excellent way to get the dog to associate the kid with bad things.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Or you could tackle this from the other end and every time your son runs by (slowly at first) and she _doesn'_t nip click/treat.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Sounds like an excellent way to get the dog to associate the kid with bad things.


Why would the dog associate the kid with bad things when he's training her and rewarding her for being calm? The leash and collar are simply a way to STOP the behavior from happening (IE; if she can't do it, she can't reward herself for her bad behavior) and redirect her attention to the human for guidance.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't see the point of using any collar corrections, especially with a prong. Why have someone always standing there waiting to jerk the dog by its neck if it starts to get too excited? Can't the kid just ignore the dog/stop the treats and other good things if the dog's behaving badly? Why toss pain into the mix? And I certainly COULD see the dog starting to associate happy running child with unpleasant collar corrections, which won't help their relationship.

A nine-year-old is also old enough to know not to run squealing past a dog that likes to herd.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> I don't see the point of using any collar corrections, especially with a prong. Why have someone always standing there waiting to jerk the dog by its neck if it starts to get too excited? Can't the kid just ignore the dog/stop the treats and other good things if the dog's behaving badly? Why toss pain into the mix? And I certainly COULD see the dog starting to associate happy running child with unpleasant collar corrections, which won't help their relationship.
> 
> A nine-year-old is also old enough to know not to run squealing past a dog that likes to herd.


Well, I didn't read anywhere that the kid was running to trigger the dog. Sounds like the dog is just being a pest from the information given, which changes things completely. If the kid is doing nothing and the dog is repeatedly nipping at his pants until they rip, the dog needs to be physically stopped. In which case, you need a collar that will control the dog and not drag you around your house by a high-speed herder. As stated, I didn't know the age of the dog when I typed the main message... if it were an adult dog of 60lbs, I would need a prong to effectively stop a dog from darting around my house nipping my kid and ripping his pants. A flat collar would pose risk to the dog and me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Well, I didn't read anywhere that the kid was running to trigger the dog. Sounds like the dog is just being a pest from the information given, which changes things completely.


You were the one who gave the example of, "The child training and feeding the dog is a great idea, but the dog isn't going to think about that as a herder when a kid goes running by." I was carrying on from that example. It seems impractical to have a prong (or martingale) and leash on the dog at all times and have someone give it a yank when the dog gets too excited about the kid.



> If the kid is doing nothing and the dog is repeatedly nipping at his pants until they rip, the dog needs to be physically stopped.


I dunno, I kind of like to train dogs rather than just yank them around. You know, actually teach them what I want them to do instead of just physically make them stop doing what I don't want them to do. At least give the OP time to try out all of these positive techniques and help the kid build a solid bond with the dog before suggesting they start yanking the dog around. There's also a good chance the dog would not realize it was being corrected for the nipping; it might think being around the kid at all was a bad thing. That would not help with creating that bond.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Why would the dog associate the kid with bad things when he's training her and rewarding her for being calm? The leash and collar are simply a way to STOP the behavior from happening (IE; if she can't do it, she can't reward herself for her bad behavior) and redirect her attention to the human for guidance.


Because there's NO NEED for the corrections, and if the dog gets corrected when it sees the kid it could WELL associate the kid with the correction and escalate the behavior.

OP, start by training Doggy Zen and Rev Up/Cool Down for a good base on impulse control.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

I appreciate this debate because it is helping me sort out options but tom is always standing still and it is a drive by nip, she LOVES when things tear because she affected a change. She loves to change things at her will in her environment and that's why she goes after his pants. He's a little sensory integrative sensitive so he does not wear jeans. He's almost outgrown this, but not quite. Jeans would hold up but he needs the nylon pants. He is actually very low key with her and he simply, calmly says "hey, no bite" and she apologizes with a playbow, gets a toy (90% jollyball) and they play.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

Maybe also give her an outlet to rip up stuff?

A big plush toy with a small hole so she can rip out stuffing? A long tug toy to play tug with that he can carry around with him and take out when she is getting excited?


Edit: For sports, maybe Treibball? No sheep needed! Treibball


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Well, I didn't read anywhere that the kid was running to trigger the dog. Sounds like the dog is just being a pest from the information given, which changes things completely. If the kid is doing nothing and the dog is repeatedly nipping at his pants until they rip, the dog needs to be physically stopped. In which case, you need a collar that will control the dog and not drag you around your house by a high-speed herder. As stated, I didn't know the age of the dog when I typed the main message... if it were an adult dog of 60lbs, I would need a prong to effectively stop a dog from darting around my house nipping my kid and ripping his pants. A flat collar would pose risk to the dog and me.


I've raised three kids and numerous dogs, I've NEVER needed a prong collar to stop a dog from giving chase. That's where supervision and TRAINING the dog (and the kids) comes in along with such safety devices as baby gates and crates to keep the pets and kids separated when things start getting rowdy. The dog needs impulse control training and should be separated from the kids when it starts acting like it's going to start nipping (there are signs the dog is getting wound up). Punishing the dog for playing could well cause fear issues and cause a serious bite down the road.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

Nil, I'm scared she'd swallow the stuffing. Is that a rational fear?


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

just for refernce, my dog would be broke by a prong collar, I won't use one. I'd rehome her to a kid free house first and my good friend and colleague is our Aussie rescue so please know I'm not using that particular idea.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

ajw said:


> Nil, I'm scared she'd swallow the stuffing. Is that a rational fear?


It may be for your dog, does she like eating the fluff? If you don't know you could always try it? 

I just know my dog loves taking it all out. There are also toys that have small plush toys inside of them that can be taken out. Not sure if she would be into that. Hide A Squirrel.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> You were the one who gave the example of, "The child training and feeding the dog is a great idea, but the dog isn't going to think about that as a herder when a kid goes running by." I was carrying on from that example. It seems impractical to have a prong (or martingale) and leash on the dog at all times and have someone give it a yank when the dog gets too excited about the kid.


I guess my point was more that when the dog wants to play, he isn't going to remember the respect for the kid from feeding and training. She just wants to play and rip stuff. 



> I dunno, I kind of like to train dogs rather than just yank them around. You know, actually teach them what I want them to do instead of just physically make them stop doing what I don't want them to do. At least give the OP time to try out all of these positive techniques and help the kid build a solid bond with the dog before suggesting they start yanking the dog around. There's also a good chance the dog would not realize it was being corrected for the nipping; it might think being around the kid at all was a bad thing. That would not help with creating that bond.


Did I ever say to yank it around, or not use positive reinforcement with it? I'm pretty sure I also said... "You could also try your son walking her around on lead with treats; luring a heel almost, so it is reinforced that walking calmly next to him (instead of running and nipping) is what gives her pleasure."



cshellenberger said:


> Because there's NO NEED for the corrections, and if the dog gets corrected when it sees the kid it could WELL associate the kid with the correction and escalate the behavior.
> 
> OP, start by training Doggy Zen and Rev Up/Cool Down for a good base on impulse control.


Except the dog isn't being corrected every time it sees a kid. It's being corrected for nipping on pants, because the OP doesn't want any more pants ruined and the dog isn't trained yet.



cshellenberger said:


> I've raised three kids and numerous dogs, I've NEVER needed a prong collar to stop a dog from giving chase. That's where supervision and TRAINING the dog (and the kids) comes in along with such safety devices as baby gates and crates to keep the pets and kids separated when things start getting rowdy. The dog needs impulse control training and should be separated from the kids when it starts acting like it's going to start nipping (there are signs the dog is getting wound up). Punishing the dog for playing could well cause fear issues and cause a serious bite down the road.


And the OP is trying to train, but the dog isn't trained yet and has already picked up bad behavior, so she needs to be physically stopped from doing more damage while she's waiting on positive reinforcement to work. Kind of like using a prong or easy-walk harness on a dog while you're training it to walk on a loose lead; you need some results now for everyone's safety, but it is not the way to train or teach a dog, just makes life bearable and gets the dog to stop the bad behavior.



ajw said:


> just for refernce, my dog would be broke by a prong collar, I won't use one. I'd rehome her to a kid free house first and my good friend and colleague is our Aussie rescue so please know I'm not using that particular idea.


It would not be appropriate on such a young dog anyway.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

And Maya has made a lot of progress, she used to ride our hems and now just drive by nips rather than constant latch on. She is progressing using verbal cues and redirection.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ajw said:


> And Maya has made a lot of progress, she used to ride our hems and now just drive by nips rather than constant latch on. She is progressing using verbal cues and redirection.


Does she have a recall? If not, build that up. When my pup gets too rough in a dog pile of play, I call him out of it to come sit by me for a moment and calm down. This could work to your advantage and if she starts amping up in the house and running, just call her to you to sit down and get some treats, then release and repeat. OR have your son do this with the recall, so that she forgets about running towards him to bite and comes up to a sit for a treat instead.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Did you even bother to read the training I posted DJ? I also believe I (and others) have advised removing the dog from the situation BEFORE the dog gets amped up to the point of nipping and SEPARATING the dog from the child. Not sure how much work you've done with dogs and children LIVING TOGETHER, but I assure you I've done plenty of it.

aiw, take a look at the training links I posted and work on those excercises, they are your best bet for training your dog out of this stage.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

I give her 40% on recall...she is a bit singularly focused but I also blame that on maturity. If I have or smell like food it is a lot better


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

cshellengerger I absolutely will and thank you!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think it sounds like you're making great progress already.  One good thing is that your son is nine, and that's old enough to remember a lot of training-related stuff and be fairly consistent with the dog. I think you will continue to see great results as the dog ages.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> It would not be appropriate on such a young dog anyway.


Then why did you even suggest it?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Then why did you even suggest it?


I suggested it and she had posted at the same time with the dog's age... In my first post I believe it was I said I'd use a pron if the dog was adult/hard/old enough, then edited when I saw his age and said I'd only use a martingale, not a prong for a pup and just light collar pops to get the dog's attention.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ajw said:


> I give her 40% on recall...she is a bit singularly focused but I also blame that on maturity. If I have or smell like food it is a lot better


It'll always be better with food... Takes dogs a while to learn to function without it... But I ALWAYS reward every come with food during recall training, because I want the come command to always mean the quickest, most motivated come, you know?


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## Nuclear_Glitter (Jun 20, 2012)

I'd work on this, so when you need her to stop doing something you can use a positive interrupter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8

Also, as everyone has suggested, remove the dog from the situation when it gets too hyper. I have 5 year old sisters (who're twins) and I always have to be careful when the dogs are playing around them because one of them could easily get knocked over by my larger dogs. Anytime the dogs get too rowdy I stop the play for a while, or move them somewhere else. The little girls also love to play tug and stuff with them (supervised at all times.) 

Just keep having your son work with the dog on training, and feeding, and playing with toys. Anytime she looks like she's about to go for the pants, have your son leave, or have her go to a time out spot (such as the bathroom). Remember to supervise him and the dog at all times though because something could go wrong at any second. 

My brother, who is 13, has a lot of trouble with my dogs because he doesn't listen to the rules and boundaries I've set. However, because I've been more on him recently to do it right him and the dogs are starting to have a better relationship. It's really all about setting rules and making sure both parties (kid and dog) follow them. 

Your son sounds like he's doing a great job, and I truly commend that, because a lot of kids don't do good. So tell him to just keep up the good work and things should really start improving. I also really recommend the doggy zen and rev up and cool down links too. Doggy zen has helped my dogs out both so much.

ETA: I think the stuffing toy would be fine so long as you supervise. Perkins will eat stuffing, so when I give a toy to him with it I just pick up the stuffing as he pulls it out. He is super satisfied ripping things up, and I have peace of mind, knowing it's all thrown away when he's done.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> I suggested it and she had posted at the same time with the dog's age... In my first post I believe it was I said I'd use a pron if the dog was adult/hard/old enough, then edited when I saw his age and said I'd only use a martingale, not a prong for a pup and just light collar pops to get the dog's attention.


She posted in post TWO in this thread, far before you did, about enrolling the dog in 4H when she was a year old. That right there should have told you 'puppy'.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> She posted in post TWO in this thread, far before you did, about enrolling the dog in 4H when she was a year old. That right there should have told you 'puppy'.


Obviously not everyone reads the follow-up posts before replying...


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> You were the one who gave the example of, "The child training and feeding the dog is a great idea, but the dog isn't going to think about that as a herder when a kid goes running by." I was carrying on from that example. It seems impractical to have a prong (or martingale) and leash on the dog at all times and have someone give it a yank when the dog gets too excited about the kid.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno, I kind of like to train dogs rather than just yank them around. You know, actually teach them what I want them to do instead of just physically make them stop doing what I don't want them to do. At least give the OP time to try out all of these positive techniques and help the kid build a solid bond with the dog before suggesting they start yanking the dog around. There's also a good chance the dog would not realize it was being corrected for the nipping; it might think being around the kid at all was a bad thing. That would not help with creating that bond.


Kids excite dogs, I think even Josefina would nip at the pants/ankles of a kid & she is 2 yrs old so I can't expect a small pup to have the restraint to stop. If Josefina would do it, being an adult now I would give her a "NO!" Reminder & then give he something more appropriate to play with. 

Like I said google "triebbal for dogs" I think even puppies can do triebbal


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CptJack said:


> She posted in post TWO in this thread, far before you did, about enrolling the dog in 4H when she was a year old. That right there should have told you 'puppy'.


But I didn't have an age, which is why I said if the dog was old enough and strong enough. As a general rule, prongs can be used on dogs as young as 6 months, so if this were an 8 month old, there would be no harm and it may be necessary. SO, I had no way of knowing her age or prong status. But alas, now we're arguing details that do not matter.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I thought 4 H applied to the age of the child not the dog.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> I thought 4 H applied to the age of the child not the dog.


It could be that the OP doesn't want the pup to start agility until she is closer to mature and her growth plates have closed, as it's usually very risky to work a puppy on any contacts or repetitive jumping/forced jumping in agility at a young age. Or maybe the agility sector doesn't let pups start before a year old for this reason; many normal agility training classes around here have that stipulation.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

ajw said:


> I appreciate this debate because it is helping me sort out options but tom is always standing still and it is a drive by nip, s*he LOVES when things tear because she affected a change. She loves to change things at her will in her environment and that's why she goes after his pants.* He's a little sensory integrative sensitive so he does not wear jeans. He's almost outgrown this, but not quite. Jeans would hold up but he needs the nylon pants. He is actually very low key with her and he simply, calmly says "hey, no bite" and she apologizes with a playbow, gets a toy (90% jollyball) and they play.


That's not how dogs think.

As a herding breed, she has built in instincts to nip legs and ripping his pants gets a fun (to her reaction), so she does it more. Let me put it to you this way: your son doesn't like jeans because his nervous system works a little differently than most, it's not to piss you off or force you to do certain things (buy nylon pants.) His motivation is simple: comfort. In the same way, dogs have simple motivations and instincts.

You seem like a good owner, I just like to remind people not to ascribe complex motivations to dogs. It gets you thinking that the dog can plot and plan and piss you off on purpose, when really, they're just reacting to the moment.

It's probably a good think your son doesn't like jeans (I don't either, they always feel stiff and scratchy to me, and the waist band digs into my stomach, ugh! I finally gave up being fashionable and now when I wear pants, it's soft, stretchy athletic pants.), so you get this sorted out now as opposed to when she's bigger.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

That's why I suggested triebbal as a means of redirecting her herding instinct that way you can say "don't here this, here THIS" unmanaged herding instinct is the reason why so many herding breeds are given up before they reach adulthood.

Have your son (weather he wants to or not) wear a pair of rubber boots OVER his pants (like stick his pants into them) until you can get this managed, no fun biting on something that doesn't tear. When Izze was a pup I literally lived in my rubber boots or my ropers if it was too hot for rubber boots again I stuck my pant cuffs into them so she couldn't get ahold of them it's IMO the only way to break them of this behavior.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

The high voices, the quick movements, unpredictable- children are everything that gets our dogs revved up. Many times I have ordered either my son or my dogs "Out!" 

For a while (when the puppies were younger and were having a nip fest every time I drove car pool) there was the order for my son to "Don't talk at all, walk straight through the garage, and into you room. Don't take off your back-pack and don't swing your arms around." After a few times, my son said "I know, I know..."and would recite the above instructions.

It helped.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Herding dogs are a little tougher to deture because the reason they do is because the source of the behavior is more deeply ingrained


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

> As a herding breed, she has built in instincts to nip legs and ripping his pants gets a fun (to her reaction), so she does it more. Let me put it to you this way: your son doesn't like jeans because his nervous system works a little differently than most, it's not to piss you off or force you to do certain things (buy nylon pants.) His motivation is simple: comfort. In the same way, dogs have simple motivations and instincts.


OK. So I was thinking she likes to rip things, because she goes to great lengths to chew her rope toys apart, and anything she can tug-and-rip, it is so obvious through her body language that she is *highly* entertained. In fact, if a dog toy doesn't really do anything she can't be bothered with it and goes looking for her own fun. 

I have a pair of rubber boots that he wears, started that a few weeks ago, and I wear them when I'm working with her as well. This little smart (a$$) dog grabs just above the top of the boot. I love her to pieces, and it amazes me that she misses skin every time, but argh on the clothing replacement bill. 

I do think consistent training is working, slowly but surely.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

Bob was like this- and training helped him a lot, too! I still have a jacket from his baby-hood- rips in the pockets and on the sleeves. He also never tore skin.

He still loves ripping, it is just focused in the right place now.  And we really don't have to coach our son how to walk anymore.



ajw said:


> OK. So I was thinking she likes to rip things, because she goes to great lengths to chew her rope toys apart, and anything she can tug-and-rip, it is so obvious through her body language that she is *highly* entertained. In fact, if a dog toy doesn't really do anything she can't be bothered with it and goes looking for her own fun.
> 
> I have a pair of rubber boots that he wears, started that a few weeks ago, and I wear them when I'm working with her as well. This little smart (a$$) dog grabs just above the top of the boot. I love her to pieces, and it amazes me that she misses skin every time, but argh on the clothing replacement bill.
> 
> I do think consistent training is working, slowly but surely.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

That's why I have dogs instead of kids bc it's easier (for me) to shape & teach a dog then a child. Dogs & kids CAN be done (I think there is a sticky on it somewhere ) but it takes commitment &/or experience with dogs & knowledge of their behavior OR a willingness to learn about it. It seems you have the willingness to learn what drives your puppy to do the things he does.

It's not about punishment it's about management prevention & redirection ignoring of behavior if it does happen


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> That's why I suggested triebbal as a means of redirecting her herding instinct that way you can say "don't here this, here THIS" unmanaged herding instinct is the reason why so many herding breeds are given up before they reach adulthood.
> 
> Have your son (weather he wants to or not) wear a pair of rubber boots OVER his pants (like stick his pants into them) until you can get this managed, no fun biting on something that doesn't tear. When Izze was a pup I literally lived in my rubber boots or my ropers if it was too hot for rubber boots again I stuck my pant cuffs into them so she couldn't get ahold of them it's IMO the only way to break them of this behavior.


I think that triebbal is an excellet outlet for her energy. At this point in her training I would be a bit concerned with a 9 year old doing agility. Aussie's are high drive dogs that I see some adults at trials having biting nipping issues with. With triebbal she would learn to work with your son with distance between them which should help with her excitement level.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes & triebbal is also good because its not "high impact" like agility is & a puppy under the age of 18 mos I think can't do agility. It's the discovery that saved me from pulling my hair out with Izze because when she started to herd me or one of the other dogs, I would redirect her to her triebbal ball lol ... Until she got big enough to he her mouth around it, I built something called a "flirt pole" (google it) I attached mine to a overhanging tree branch because I couldn't put up a pole where I was. 

@AJW google these things please you will be shocked at how it helps your dog, he really can't help what he is doing, it's not dominance, naughty or anything else ... It is deeply ingrained instinct what he is doing is trying to in some way (I believe) WORK for you so instead of fighting it ... USE it


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

agility collie mom said:


> I think that triebbal is an excellet outlet for her energy. At this point in her training I would be a bit concerned with a 9 year old doing agility. Aussie's are high drive dogs that I see some adults at trials having biting nipping issues with. With triebbal she would learn to work with your son with distance between them which should help with her excitement level.


dog is 9 MONTHS, not 9 years.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

That's what I thought & there is an age limit on agility isn't there? There is no reason that the OP can't do low impact mental exercise, which tires a dog out much more then physical. Find what motivates her & use it, with Buddy it is food with Josefina it's a toy, like they use to reward the police dogs when they find drugs, her reward is tug.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> dog is 9 MONTHS, not 9 years.


No, the dog is FOUR months, not nine. The child is nine. 

Obviously not everyone reads the follow-up posts before replying...

Agility collie mom is speaking about a young child running a nipping herder in agility and how it may be very difficult for him or dangerous.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

No one should expect a dog to respect a child in the same way thy so an adult, they know they aren't "equal" to adults, dogs aren't stupid. Whether the dog is 4 months or 9 mos it's still too young for any high impact sports like agility.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Yep dog is too young as is the child to participate in agility. Love the herding breeds just have to understand them!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> No one should expect a dog to respect a child in the same way thy so an adult, they know they aren't "equal" to adults, dogs aren't stupid. Whether the dog is 4 months or 9 mos it's still too young for any high impact sports like agility.


But, we're not even talking about the dog's age anymore. We're talking about the child's age.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

In retrospect (I know the dog is too young for sport) but don't they have youth agility? Just curious.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

The youngest a jr handler can be is 8. I do know a couple of jr handles but they worked with experienced older dogs that were calm. Plus many clubs have kids agility which is more laid back at the beginning. Again this depends on the age (maturity) of the child and the experience or temperment of the dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks, I was curious  I know at the jack Russell shows had lots of junior handlers


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

To clarify: dog agility is not our plan until after she is a year old and we know her growth plates are all fused. Right now we use a flirt pole, ball chasing, a basketball type game where she has to dodge us and get to her safe spot, and standard issue fetch as our exercise games. No jumping down besides off the couch.

My son can train through 4H to be a junior handler with her once she is old enough, and she first has to graduate obedience school. It's a nice program.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

It's good you are channeling her instinct, she really can't help it it's ingrained. With the clothes ripping I don't have any advice other then a pair of tall thick rubber boots lol nothing to grab onto means no "reward" for her.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

QFT right here. 


dogdragoness said:


> No one should expect a dog to respect a child in the same way thy so an adult, they know they aren't "equal" to adults, dogs aren't stupid.


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