# Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc.



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Long post; I'm more interested in foundation work (I think) than this specific trick...

I'm trying to teach Soro how to stack rings with this toy:









But to start off with something easier, ie wider ring and thinner pole, I am using a rubber ring like this:








and a paper towel roll.

I started out by using my roll to catch the ring, and rewarding when the ring went around the roll. I gradually moved my roll less, so that he would have to be more precise about where to put the ring. Right now I'm holding the roll upright on the floor, mimicking the toy, and Soro gets the ring over it maybe 50% of the time. What I'm hoping is that he's actually getting the concept of 'ring goes over roll' rather than just randomly dropping the ring at the opportune moment without grasping that. Hopefully if this works out, we'll move on to the actual toy. 

Question 1: Am I going about this the right way? 

The second part of this is the fact that Soro has always been quick to pick up tricks and behaviors that only involve his own body; spins, movements, etc. But he has always been 'sloppy' at item-tricks. For example, he knows "Clean up" very well; he puts things into containers. But if the container is high and the item hits the rim and falls out instead of in, he doesn't think to lift his head higher or even jump up a bit to put the item in. Instead, he doggedly keeps trying it the same way, and the item falls in eventually when he randomly gets it just over the edge enough.

My inspiration for teaching the ring trick is I was thinking to teach him to put coins in a piggyback. But two things:
-He will willingly pick up coins, but doesn't like holding them because they are metal. So he will spit them out in a sloppy manner
-He brings the coin to me and flings it at the container or drops it in the general area.

I saw kikopup's video on how to teach this and I see that she helps the dog find the slot on the piggybank first by feeding it treats precisely on the slot. Maybe I should have tried that. But the reason I moved from this to the ring trick was I thought maybe I could train an easier precision-trick before doing this one. (Also, I don't actually have a piggybank and was using a plastic lid with a slot cut out. Hard to work with it).

Question(s) 2: Understanding that dogs don't generalize, is it completely useless of me to be trying to 'build precision' (ie Think about where to place an item, instead of dropping/flinging it)? Will understanding the ring game help him understand the coin game or should I just teach both as separate tricks?


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

kikopup's videos are the only I've ever seen with stacking objects. Stacking, quarter in a shot glass, and money in the piggy bank vids. I like the way she trains it.

If you withhold the click/reward for a fraction of a second longer each time you should be able to get him to hold it longer. Luring/lifting his chin up while he holds it should help too.

I'm too nervous to try the coin tricks because I don't want my dogs to swallow it haha.

Precision exercises might help if he's "sloppy" about it. The trick training itself should help him learn precision so I'm not sure how separate they need to be.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks Sibe!
The holding part is not the issue. If I told him to "hold it" he would, be it coin or ring. But it's the release that is rushed; he doesn't put any thought into how to drop things he just does. I *think* it's getting better with the rings. But we'll see 
I was under the impression that this was a common trick but maybe there's a reason why I can't find too many other tutorials on it! Also, and search with the words "dog" and "stack" yield show stacking results!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

"Dogs don't generalize" but they do improve their ability to learn and to give more behaviors.
1. Does Soro pick up toys and put them into a toy box [Note: Chase the BC is not good at this  ]
2. Teach the ring over the peg, b/c it adds another behavior. I think dogs learn ... "here's another new behavior..."
3. Alternative suggestion (not a better suggestion)-
A. Pick up ring and walk to a mat and drop on the mat.
B. Then drop on a small block of wood, then another block of wood, then on the peg.
C. 2nd Alternative --- Drop on 1 child's wood block; Then drop on a tower of 2 wooden blocks, 3 wooden blocks... until has high as the peg.
D. Then drop the ring into a large slot [Targeting]; then a smaller slot; then a smaller ring in the smaller slot; then a coin in the slot.
E. The the same slot on a 'fake pig.' Then a smaller slot going towards the coin sized slot. The the piggy bank....

FWIW


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Worth a lot, hanksimon 
Yes, Soro is very good at cleaning up his toys. His "Clean up" command is pretty well generalized. In a totally new environment, I only have to indicate the container (box, trash bin, my book bag, bowl, etc), point at an item, and say the cue for him to 'clean up' the item.

"Teach the ring over the peg, b/c it adds another behavior."
I agree. If anything, I'll turn it into a new trick like hanging hats and leashes on a peg. But for now I'm not putting a cue on it at all. I do say "go get it!" and other words to get him excited about picking up the ring, but I will let this trick become what it becomes.

I like your alternatives and I was thinking of doing that with the piggybank trick; cut a large slot then gradually make it smaller as his success rate increases. But I'm lazy when it comes to working with props  We'll see how things go! These are good ideas to dwell on.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Hmmm, I'd like to give this a go. Obi will put things in a container and in my hands, but never tried something like this which requires a lot of precision. I always thought it would be pretty straightforward once the dog knows how to put objects on/in a target, but maybe it's not. Will give it a go, and will video it just in case it's turns out to be interesting. Would love to see video of Soro's attempts too.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Revelation tonight suggested by my roommate: "Why not just use the base of the toy with the rubber ring instead of the paper towel roll?"
But things are going well! I'll try to snatch a video in the next few days.

I'm also working on some foundation to teach Soro how to skateboard. I'm buying one off a stranger for $5 this Thursday. But Soro's not good with instability (ex. the dog walk in agility, wobble boards, etc). We'll see how that goes 

Separate train of thought, but when you guys train do you work on a bunch of behaviors at once or do you teach one to completion before moving onto the next one? I find myself picking up and dropping many different projects at once. For example, YEARS ago I started teaching Soro how to roll himself up in a blanket. It didn't quite work out and I put it off until just a few days ago. Spent 10 minutes warming up and BOOM. He now perfectly rolls himself up in blankets. I want to try to focus on a few things at once though.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Ooo, here's a thought!
Refer to poorly drawn diagram below:









Soro very consistently holds the ring from the top (dog A). So he can't actually see where he's dropping the toy. I have no idea what goes through his head when I do reward him for getting the ring over the pole. But maybe I should be focusing on marking the moment when the bottom of the ring hits the pole? Sort of like teaching him that point of contact is right. 
I've seen dogs grab from the bottom (dog B) in videos. And to me that seems more advantageous since the dog can see where the ring is going. Theoretically, maybe I can teach that by starting out manually holding the pole higher, so he sees himself put the ring over the peg, then gradually lower it? 

Ideas for tomorrow. I'm out of rewards tonight (ie, fed him his dinner through shaping).


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

When I teach Shep, I kinda teach for the moment. So I may teach different behaviors at the same time, but at different locations... not a conscious decision, just opportunistic. For example, when I saw the Harry Potter videos (last year?), I had to teach Star Wars, "These aren't the Droids you're looking for" including the Jedi hand wave for "Settle!" Cute trick, took a few moments, provided some entertainment, and no longer used. Although Shep knows a lot of cues, I haven't taught him a lot of shaped tricks, out of my own laziness.

For Obi and Soro, since both of them sound proficient at targeting and at dropping toys into the box, could you make a small cardboard box [Duct tape is your friend ] and put the peg stand inside? Make the box large enough to easily drop the ring inside, but small enough that the ring drops onto the peg. It may be possible to drop the ring between the side of the box and the peg, and I don't know how to cure that.

But after you get the ring onto the peg in the box figured out (I think it should be easy?), then cut 10% from the sides of the box, so that the top of the peg is level or a little above the side of the box. Train for that iteration. Then, incrementally, cut 10% more, training successively for each gradual iteration, until there's no box and the dog is putting the ring on the peg by default. In theory, it sounds like a good progression, taking fewer than 10 days [fewer than 10 minutes ?  ] ... but the best laid plans of mice and mutts....

On the other hand, from a targeting perspective, with a bit of clicker training, the dog may just "get it".


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

K, vid time.

This is what we're working on:




He was pretty good at getting the ring from a distance and stacking it. But I noticed that close up, he missed almost every time until I tossed it further away. I thought the reason for that is he gets to visually mark where to drop when he's approaching. But when the ring is right there and he's pretty much already on top of the base, he just tosses and hopes for the best. So here I'm mostly marking the point of contact, not when the ring has already dropped. I noticed a pretty fast increase in success once I started doing that, even at close range.

And this one is just for fun. We're really not ready to be at this level yet but I wanted to test and see how it was going. Interestingly, he is really good at getting the smallest ring on, and worst at the green one (noticed across multiple attempts, not just this shooting):





EDIT:
I really need to stabilize the base somehow. It's hollow and light. I'm thinking cut open the bottom and stuff some rocks/cement in there. Or cut a hole and fill with sand. Or duct tape it to a wide piece of cardboard...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Very nice, he's getting good at that  He seemed to fumble a lot with the green one, like he was just hoping it would go on without really knowing what he was doing. Funny how the smaller ones very easier than the green one....

I haven't done anything yet, I haven't found anything I can use around the house. Going to the shopping centre tomorrow, so will get something then.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

So cool! You make it look so smooth and easy, tempted to go buy one 

Guess you didn't need my suggestion about incrementally cutting the cardboard box ...

I like the expressions in the "fun" video: " Here's the ring, where's my treat?" ...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Right, so I got the same toy last night, and threw the dogs in the deep end. I rewarded for picking up the ring a few times, then presented the pole and rewarded for putting the ring anywhere near it. While they both managed to get the ring on the pole, I think it was by accident more than anything. I think they think they were just bringing me the ring, and there just happened to be a pole there. So I can either position the pole so that they accidentally drop the ring onto it and get it right, or I can separate myself from the pole by putting a bigger base on it and putting it somewhere on floor away from me. I think I'll do the latter.

These videos are just snippets from the very first session I did with each dog, and each dog worked for about 7-8 minutes. Obi insisted that the ring needed to be in my lap (which was really cute!)


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Nice start!! I love how Obi investigated ALL of the pole at around :18.
I opted for positioning the pole so that Soro 'got it right' from the start. It did mean I was fishing for the ring with my hand at first. But it was maybe 5-10 minutes between doing that, and moving the pole less and less each time, to putting the toy on the floor and having him get the rubber ring over. So I guess I'm working in reverse order from you. But when I find a way to stabilize the base I will also put it away from me. Looking forward to see where you take this


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

I did another session just now where I helped them by positioning the pole so they would drop it on there. Then decided to just hold the pole at arms length from me on the floor, and they both stopped bringing me the ring and seemed to understand that the ring had to go somewhere in the vicinity of the pole, which was cool.

Surprisingly, Pixie's success rate in getting the ring on the pole was higher than Obi's. She's usually the slower learner because I got her as an adult while Obi has been shaped since he was a puppy. But Pixie is less food motivated, so I think she's able to think more clearly while Obi goes "ermagerd food!" and just throws everything he's got at it, hoping that something will result in food.

I did get some video, but I will have to edit out all the boring bits and upload later. 

This is fun  Next up we will be stacking bowls.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Awesome! Looking forward to the vid.
Also, can I just say how jealous I am that you have small dogs for this? Every now and then it looks like Soro's going to get it but then his teeth get stuck in the soft plastic and he needs to pry it off with his paws instead. If I see bowls or cups suitable for this I'll pick up a cheap pack of them too!

I wish we had a thread where someone suggests one trick at a time and people have a set amount of time to teach it. Might motivate a lot more people to try new tricks and everyone can help troubleshoot!


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Hah, yeah I don't know how you do this with a big dog. Obi comes pretty close to getting his head stuck in the ring too 

Here are the videos from yesterday:












Had another session today, and it was pretty much the same. I believe the should be clear progress in every session, otherwise something is wrong. So I think I need to position the pole differently (maybe at an angle) to make it easier to get the ring on it, or move it as they approach so they drop the ring on. Pixie seems to be making a little progress, but Obi seems to be stuck, so will try that tomorrow.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

I definitely see progress! For Pixie, do you think moving the base higher would help her? She holds it SO nicely but it's just a smidge higher than it needs to be! And for Obi maybe closer and angling the pole sort of towards him a bit? I'm sure you'll figure it out though! I think even if they did nothing but accidentally or randomly get it right, that rate would eventually go up. The thing about free shaping that gets me is this exact part that you're at. Clearly your dogs love this game and trying to figure it out. But it is such a huge jump from get-ring-close-to-pole to get-ring-over-pole that I personally wouldn't have the patience to just let that happen naturally. I guess what I'm doing is shaping too, since this isn't a lure-able trick. But I do 'manually' increase the chance for success by setting the dog up to get it right more often too. I don't know if that falls under the umbrella of shaping or what.

Here's ours from this morning:




I want to keep on going at this level for a little longer, until his success rate when the ring is close to the toy gets higher. But I like how he seems to 'get' it by the way be keeps on trying without any prompt from me. Earlier if the ring fell close to the pole but not on it, he would wait to see if that was good enough.

And this happens sometimes:


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

That's awesome  Love the mid-air catch too  He definitely seems to get what the criteria is, otherwise he wouldn't keep trying when it falls next to the pole. At what point would you use a smaller ring? Personally I would probably introduce that after a session like that, but I can also see how you'd give him a little more time so he gets it right every time rather than most of the time. Good idea to tape it down too, I might try that.

Shaping doesn't usually take this long for us, it's just that this behaviour requires more precision than most of the stuff we do. For other stuff, I would rarely spend more than 3-4 session before I had a finished behaviour. Like with leg weaves, that only took 3 sessions. Another thing about shaping is they seem to remember the things we work on really well. Like when Obi was 4 months old I shaped him to roll over, and then never asked for it again because he hated doing it. The other day (2 years later) hubby asked him to roll over and he did it . Same with leg weaves, we worked on that in September last year and then I sort of forgot all about it. The other day I was doing "walk between my legs" and Obi kept trying to weave.

And also, I'm not in a hurry to get the behaviour, because the struggle itself is very valuable. It teaches them that when reinforcement doesn't happen immediately, just try harder, don't give up. And it's great mental stimulation and they have fun  But at the same time, when it's too hard and the rate of reinforcement drops, they will start to lose interest. So when there's no significant progress I would definitely manipulate the environment to make it easier for them to succeed, which in this case would be to use a bigger ring or angle the pole so they can get it right. I don't have a bigger ring, so I will try placing the pole at an angle, or lifting it for Pixie (good idea btw, hadn't thought of that).


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Hubby just did something interesting. He's not really into dog training, but he's watched me do it enough. He decided to give the ring stacking a go, and he told me the other day I was "clicking too much". So he just put the pole down, handed Obi the ring and waited. Obi fumbled and fumbled (with no feedback from hubby) and I thought to myself that Obi would just end up giving up, but there would be no harm as he will still work for me later so I let hubby have fun with it. 

And then this funny thing happened - Obi got the ring on the pole. So he got a treat. Hubby took the ring off and handed it back to Obi and let him keep fumbling. And then he got it on again. And this was repeated several times. Obi didn't lose enthusiasm, he just kept trying and trying until he got it, and the only thing he was rewarded for was when the ring went on the pole. In a 5 minute session, Obi got the ring on the pole 5 times. I started videoing after the first 3, so I got some of it on video at least.

And here I've been clicking for "being close" and he's only got it on once or twice per session. It was really cool, will post video later 

Then hubby tried the same approach with Pixie, but she just lay down and gave up.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*



lil_fuzzy said:


> And also, I'm not in a hurry to get the behaviour, because the struggle itself is very valuable. It teaches them that when reinforcement doesn't happen immediately, just try harder, don't give up. And it's great mental stimulation and they have fun  But at the same time, when it's too hard and the rate of reinforcement drops, they will start to lose interest. So when there's no significant progress I would definitely manipulate the environment to make it easier for them to succeed, which in this case would be to use a bigger ring or angle the pole so they can get it right. I don't have a bigger ring, so I will try placing the pole at an angle, or lifting it for Pixie (good idea btw, hadn't thought of that).


If shaping was a business, someone better pay you to sell it! Very intriguing reasoning. I think more than anyone else on the forum you've probably taught me to appreciate it the most. Though I think I will always use a combination, some luring and also bribing for the skateboard trick for example  
Interesting bit on remembering tricks too. I remember when I first went to college I was worried that when I came back (couldn't take Soro) he would have forgotten everything. But nope, he didn't even skip a beat. I don't know if I'd agree that shaping is the cause of that, but I would say that I think dogs that receive training consistently have been taught to think more, and they retain stuff like this.
And this is also why I like to bounce training ideas off of dog people. In an earlier post I wrote about how I didn't even think about using the toy base and opted for a toilet paper roll. And my roommate, who is not a dog person, told me "why not just use the base?" as if it was the most obvious thing. Sometimes we all need a different perspective!



lil_fuzzy said:


> And here I've been clicking for "being close" and he's only got it on once or twice per session. It was really cool, will post video later
> 
> Then hubby tried the same approach with Pixie, but she just lay down and gave up.


That blows my mind. It surprises me but when I think about it I don't think I should be. It just proves how different each dog is, I think!


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

I do love shaping  But not sure if it's shaping a behaviour that makes them remember it so well, can't really compare because I don't use luring. But one of my teachers told me one time that the more you struggle to figure out a problem, the better you remember it and the more you learn. So I was thinking it might be the same for dogs? 

I've just watched the videos from the session with hubby before, and Pixie did try a little initially, and got the ring on the pole once and was rewarded. Then she came close a few times with no reward, and then she sort of lay down and didn't do anything. At that point I would have waited her out, because I never let my dogs give up, and I would assume she was just processing what was happening. I once spent 10 minutes just waiting for her to start doing stuff again, but hubby isn't that patient, so that was pretty much the end of the session for her.

Not sure why her frustration threshold is lower than Obi. Could be an individual thing, or it could be because she wasn't shaped as a puppy. Or could be that she's not as motivated. Would love to have a whole group of dogs to experiment on.....


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Hubby's session with Obi: http://youtu.be/0G7pTs1sQEs

Not edited, just the last 2 minutes of the session. It's almost painful to watch, because he struggles so much and he gets so close, and yet gets no feedback (other than occasional verbal encouragment). But he gets there in the end and never loses enthusiasm


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

That's great! I love how Obi is eager till the very end! Soro seems to be in between Obi and Pixie in terms of his determination. He needs to 'get it' to a certain degree first but if I had tried shaping just from the start he would have lied down 

Looking forward to seeing where we both take this!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

EUREKA MOMENT!

We played this game for maybe 15 minutes tonight, using all of his dinner.
At first, things were going mediocre-well. 




It was the same as before; he was great if I tossed the ring at a distance but if the ring started out close it became more random tossing. But all in all, no improvement from the last time I posted.
Then, I had a revelation: I jackpotted whenever he got it on the first try. I rewarded with 1 kibble for successes requiring multiple tries. Result:






I am ESPECIALLY pleased with the stack at 1:10. He clearly misses it but self corrected, bringing the ring back up until he felt it was right and then dropping, as opposed to just letting it fall wrong on the first attempt and then trying again. 

EDIT: Oh! And the stack at :38! He *placed* the ring down instead of just dropping it! YES!

I also threw in the plastic ring towards the end of the session and it was iffy at first (getting used to the switch in ring, perhaps?) but he got really good towards the end. For the plastic I'm starting out by throwing far and moving it closer gradually, and also jackpotting for first attempt successes.





(Excuse the hushed voice. My roommate was sleeping so I didn't scream GOOD BOY!!! even though I really wanted to)


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Wow, looks like a great session  He's definitely a lot more deliberate when placing the big ring than I've seen previously. Didn't take him long to figure out the smaller ring either. He's so clever 

He looks like he'd be a natural at the puppy pretzel trick too, he almost did it all on his own a few times  Puppy pretzel = head down between front legs, resting forehead on the floor (does that make sense?)


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

That's so amazing! He understands that the ring belongs on the peg, but he had to re-learn the 'physics' for the second ring...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Did a session with Obi earlier today, his first session since the fumbly session with hubby. I was feeling confident after hubby's session, so I decided to only reward when he got the ring on the pole, and he did so well with it, as you can see here:

http://youtu.be/vTI9qZvIY4s

And then because he was doing so well with it, I decided to try the next ring. After a little bit of initial fumbling he consistently managed to get it on the pole, and I was feeling confident, so I introduce another ring, and then just kept going until he'd done them all 

http://youtu.be/b4fzuw_CBOQ

Now he just needs a bit more practice so he's less fumbly with it 

ETA: How do you embed videos? I know I've done it in the past, and I've tried a few different things, but it just doesn't seem to work and I can't remember how I did it before....


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

AWESOME SAUCE! This just made my night. I need to step it up!!
You can tell he really GETS it too. (Is your hubby taking all the credit? )

Also, a few random things:
-Sort of jealous you still have that top ring. Soro cracked that within five minutes, years ago.
-Just realizing that you're in Oz. I adore your country, and kangaroo meat.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

Haha, hubby hasn't tried to take credit yet, he probably should though  I reckon I would still be rewarding "almost getting it" if hubby hadn't allowed him to struggle through it.

This is the first time Obi has touched the top ring, wouldn't be surprised if he ends up cracking it  

Yes, I'm in Australia, haven't tried kangaroo meat though (but the dogs have and they approve of it).


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*

So cool! It's amazing what ya'll have done... and now you make it look so natural.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc..*



hanksimon said:


> So cool! It's amazing what ya'll have done... and now you make it look so natural.


Jump in on the fun! 


And lil_fuzzy, we should have a race to see which dog can stack them all the fastest!! You would win at this point but... Sor and I will get there!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm considering it. I need to go get a ring toy ... I guess from Wal-Mart or Toys R Us, then figure out how to make videos. Shep can count, so I can dream about eventually teaching him one... two.. three... etc. and have a video of him stacking like lil_fuzzy did... Ya'll have already blazed the trail... [Of course I need to quit my day job, and add another 10 hours to each day, too  ]


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Canyx said:


> Jump in on the fun!
> 
> 
> And lil_fuzzy, we should have a race to see which dog can stack them all the fastest!! You would win at this point but... Sor and I will get there!



Yeah, let's do a race  Hubby told me yesterday he wants a video of Obi stacking them in 15 seconds.... errrr..

Would be interesting to see how fast he could do it with practice though....



hanksimon said:


> I'm considering it. I need to go get a ring toy ... I guess from Wal-Mart or Toys R Us, then figure out how to make videos. Shep can count, so I can dream about eventually teaching him one... two.. three... etc. and have a video of him stacking like lil_fuzzy did... Ya'll have already blazed the trail... [Of course I need to quit my day job, and add another 10 hours to each day, too  ]


Go for it  

It actually hasn't taken that long to teach. That video of Obi stacking them all was only his 5th session, and each session has lasted about 5-10 minutes, so less than an hour all up  Of course he does need a bit more practice to do it without fumbling....


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Yeah, let's do a race  Hubby told me yesterday he wants a video of Obi stacking them in 15 seconds.... errrr..
> 
> Would be interesting to see how fast he could do it with practice though....


Awesome! Like I said, it might take me a while to even get Soro to where Obi is right now. But I think we should just keep on posting our fastest times.

I might be cheating a bit though, since I don't have that top ring


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Obi did the rings minus the top in 30 seconds yesterday 

Then we did it again, and he fumbled a LOT with the orange ring, and then fumbled with the top ring for ages, and then got frustrated... 
I thought it was cute  http://youtu.be/zXoCLSuJ7Uo


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Training dog to stack rings, cups, etc. 

Interesting..
are you training your dog to work at Dunkin Donuts?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I thought it was cute  http://youtu.be/zXoCLSuJ7Uo


I laughed SO HARD! How cool would it be if you could put that on cue? "Obi, RESET!" 
Also, good to see Pixie on the sidelines. She looks great and I'm glad the eye situation isn't bothering her much.

And I thought it would take longer, but I beat my own record twice tonight. Two 22 second runs and two 13 second runs. One mistake each for the 13 second ones. I think if Soro made no mistakes, and I stopped fumbling the rings, we could get it down to 10 seconds. Good luck 

(And for timing, I watch my recording and start a stopwatch the moment Soro picks up the first ring, and stop it the moment the last rings falls in place)


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Whoa, awesome  13 seconds, and here I thought 30 seconds was good 

I'm still rewarding between rings though, so some time is wasted there. Well, looks like we have a challenge on our hands 

Pixie is still struggling to get the blue ring on, but we haven't done all that much because she hasn't been feeling well.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Up until tonight I did the same thing where I jackpotted for first attempt success and rewarded a bit for eventual success. But when I took the videos I thought to just run through it (not like Soro would stop working if I didn't provide the reward) but I jackpotted after the last ring. I figure he would eventually hurry to stack the other rings in order to get to the last ring and the reward. Seems to be working!

EDIT: Or maybe, the reward for stacking one ring is getting the next ring, and the ultimate reward is the jackpot at the end.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Amazing. I need to buy stock in Fischer Price! Can you set all the rings out and then just point to each one in seccession ... or too much 'distraction' ? 

I'm planning to look for the toy this weekend, but no idea how I'll get Shep ... to even pick up a ring, much less put it on the peg.... Maybe it'll help rejuvenate him...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Woohoo, Obi just did it in 13 seconds  Can't upload until later though.



hanksimon said:


> Amazing. I need to buy stock in Fischer Price! Can you set all the rings out and then just point to each one in seccession ... or too much 'distraction' ?
> 
> I'm planning to look for the toy this weekend, but no idea how I'll get Shep ... to even pick up a ring, much less put it on the peg.... Maybe it'll help rejuvenate him...


Haven't tried that, but will try that for our next session. Hubby wants Obi to put them on in the right order without any prompting. That might be the next challenge


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Shep knows how to count. I don't think he understands the order, but he really likes the number three  I do dry his feet in order, counting one, two, three, four so that he'll turn to give the correct paw.

So, if he persuades me to teach him to stack  , then I might try to lay out the rings and "label" them, 1, 2,3,4,5 ... I like the idea better than using the colors ...  Then, I guess I'd have to create a chained cue: "Stack!"


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

What does Shep's counting trick entail? That sounds really cool!

And YAY Obi! I knew it wouldn't take long 
Lil_fuzzy if we lived in the same place I would talk you into teaching Obi to play Connect Four against Soro. Whenever one dog wins Obi could flip the rack and restart it 

My next goal is to have Soro do all of this with a free standing pole. I held it in these videos because we were past the stage where I thought Soro might be using me as some sort of guide to stacking the ring properly, but I would still like to put the pole anywhere in the room and have him stack it efficiently. Getting them in order without prompting is after that! I don't think he could do that now. But I'm sure that will come naturally out of repetition.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Obi is going for the ground speed record!

I imagine that you'll have to attach the pole to something to make it stable.

I taught Shep to Count, rather than just speak, when he was a pup. He's vocal, and barked at me when he was impatient (Labs, impatient?). And He barks once or twice when he wants to come inside... No chatter.

Anyway, Rather than Speak, I said One. After he learned that I was slow to reward, so he barked a second time ... and I learned. I think he understands up to Five, but I can do a Clever Hans up to any number. And, I kinda 'transferred' that to counting each leg when drying ... I say One and dry, then I say two and he gives me the next paw, and so on... For what ever reason... He groks Three.

Downside: When I show people his counting, they start to think of him as an animated toy, rather than a pet. I can "re-train' kids somewhat, but adults are more difficult. So, rather Hello Shep, it's Shep - One... and no reward.... So, I have to 'protect' him from that 'abuse'.

Second, when I taught him, I think he barked out of frustration, and it is a higher pitched bark. A few years later, I went to a seminar with Turid Rugaas, and came to the conclusion that I might have taught him to be frustrated and bark. It's not as bad now, I think he is usually excited and bark, when I ask him to count. On the other hand, when there are treats available, he loves to perform, loudly. And, hard to stop him, once I start.  [On a previous a topic about training emotion... I based my milder comments based on my interpretation of his barking...]


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Haha, I think if I put the flipping on cue he'd never stack another ring, he'd be too busy trying to flip it  It's cute though. I thought I got him down to 12 seconds today, but upon closer examination it turned out to be 13 seconds. He's fumbling a bit though, so I reckon he will be able to do them in 10 with practice 

Meanwhile, Pixie is still fumbling with the blue ring.... When I watched the video from today's session she looked like she finally understood what was going on though, she looked like she might be starting to aim for the pole, rather than just bringing me the ring and dropping it in front of me.

hanksimon, the counting sounds really interesting, would be cool to see a video example


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

9 seconds!

http://youtu.be/L9F_aZwNolg


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Oh it is ON. 

FANTASTIC job Obi!!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

BOOM.

8





9.5





I now think that 6 seconds is the absolute fastest it could possibly be done.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Awesome  Although I reckon the last one is 10 seconds 

Obi fumbled with the yellow one, so he can do it faster. So now we aim for 6 seconds


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I timed it again and got 9. But huh, I timed it twice before I posted and got 8. Trigger happy I guess! But the first one is golden, so I'll relabel the second. Thanks for catching that and I am really glad you time my vids because I totally timed yours too 

I was going to work on the backwards circle trick for the other thread I made but I can't turn down a challenge!!! Maybe we'll tie at some point. Or defy the laws of physics, who knows. For tonight I'm out of rations though, so you have at it!


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Hah, yep I timed the first one at 8  I know mine was a bit hard to time because the camera is aimed slightly too high, but definitely no longer than 10 seconds.

Probably won't do anymore today, and I was gonna start with the blowing bubbles trick, but I have to get him down to 6 seconds now, so will work on that tomorrow


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I would love to see Obi blowing bubbles! That one should be easy for you. Well actually, if you're totally free shaping it I'd be curious how long it will take you. I thought (and I don't know since I did it differently) Soro would be stuck lapping water for a long time if I completely free shaped it.



lil_fuzzy said:


> *but I have to get him down to 6 seconds now*


That feeling. Best and worst


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Can't turn down some healthy, dog nerdy competition 

I probably won't free shape the bubbles trick. Although, I still consider it shaping to use a target stick.... I was gonna either put a target or point with a target stick at the bottom of the bowl and have him target that, then just gradually add water. Obi is pretty determined, so I don't think the water would put him off. We'll see though.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

What would you call the method I used? I put a toy at the bottom of the bowl and used an existing command (Bring it here). And when it was completely submerged I started rewarding for nose-in-bowl before he could grab the toy, then faded out the toy and put the new behavior on cue. Is it still shaping in this case?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Hmmm, it's similar to what I'm planning on doing, except I'll be using a target instead of a ball, and using a behaviour/cue they already know. And because you're breaking it down into small steps, I guess it's shaping. But with a target. I wouldn't call it "free shaping" though, because when you tell people you free shaped something, it means you didn't help the dog at all, but when you use a target you are helping the dog. 

This is where things get tricky to define, because people will say they shape a behaviour even when they're helping the dog. Like for heeling, they usually use a target next to them and shape the dog to go on it, and I know some very purist clicker trainers who say you should never help or lure the dog, but they will use a target for heeling. So why is it ok to help the dog with a target, but not ok to help the dog with your hands? At what level of helping the dog can you no longer call it shaping? 

I don't have an issue with using a target for some behaviours, because there's purist clicker training where you're not supposed to help the dog at all, but there's also good placement of rewards and manipulating the environment to help the dog succeed. And even purist clicker trainers help their dog, they just don't admit to it (for whatever reason). Like for behaviours of motion you would place the reward so that the dog continues the movement in the direction you want it to go (fine line between this and luring), and when working on a stationary behaviour you would reward in position. You don't click and then let the dog jump up to run to you for the reward (some people do, but I think this slows down the dog's learning). For environmental manipulation, when you want a dog to pick up a specific toy, you don't have all of the dog's toys scattered on the floor; you remove all the other toys and anything else the dog might want to interact with so that the only option is to pick up the toy you want it to pick up. 

I don't worry too much about trying to define exactly what method I use


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

Following this thread has been simply fascinating. I totally want to teach Faolan to stack rings. I have to go buy some first, though.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks lil_fuzzy! You know, I never really cared about what methods were called until I jumped into some of the more technical conversations here. And then I wanted to know all the correct terminology. But I don't ever want to be trapped with it, if it makes any sense. So I'll continue to just do whatever I do and put misused terms in 'brackets' like I often do 



Daenerys said:


> Following this thread has been simply fascinating. I totally want to teach Faolan to stack rings. I have to go buy some first, though.


JUMP IN! The toy is cheap and it's actually quite a relaxing activity to do with your dog. Unless you want to race as well


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Yep, I get what you're saying 

Got Obi down to 8 seconds today, which is a personal best, but still not fast enough 



Daenerys said:


> Following this thread has been simply fascinating. I totally want to teach Faolan to stack rings. I have to go buy some first, though.


Go for it  The more the merrier, and it's fun


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Fisher-Price Brilliant Basics Rock-a-Stack for ~$10 or less on Amazon or local stores. I strongly recommend leaving the base in the box to make it more stable. Watch the videos if I'm not clear. It's slow going with Shep... 

@lil_Fuzzy: re: "but not ok to help the dog with your hands? " I don't clicker train, but I understand this philosophy. Touching your dog with your hands can be seen as a reward or a distraction (or a punishment in rare cases  ), and the philosophy is that the dog is learning only by repeating a behavior that you just rewarded by clicking. It would be interesting if Bailey (a student of Skinner) were still a purist, I wonder if Sue Ailsby is a purist.

I've been able to train Shep by opportunistic but sloppy capture. But, when I trained him to turn Right and Left, I had to guide him by putting a finger on the side of his tail. I believe that he did not take this as a reward, because I use a similar guidance to encourage him to turnover from one side to the other for examinations, etc. 

I haven't been able to capture dropping the ring onto the peg, yet... after two training sessions


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Canyx said:


>


Awesome! ... love the 'spilled-beans party' at the end, too


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks petpeeve! I think I was in a rush to upload the video and show up lil_fuzzy 

We tried a few more rounds tonight and we can't seem to break 8 seconds! I got two more perfect 8 sec. tries. But his fumbles seem to be even more fumbly tonight. Oh well, another day


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

awesome awesome , wanted to come back to the thread and see yalls progress !!! so cool !!!


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I can't seem to get Obi under 8 seconds either. He's done it in 8 seconds twice now, but mostly he's doing it in around 10 seconds. Maybe it can't be done?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Maybe it can't be done?












Okay, maybe not 6. But I think 7 is definitely doable! The transition of the rings needs to be absolutely seamless though. But I think our dogs are doing well enough as is and I think I will leave it up to chance. Unless you get there first, in which I will dedicate all my kibble to matching that  
Otherwise, I might start getting him to do it without my holding the base, and teaching him to do the correct order on his own as well.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Haha, alright 

I started Obi with the yellow ring today, because he always seems to fumble with it, but he did it perfectly when it was on its own (no other rings on the pole), and then did the orange one perfectly as well. Then I started him with the blue one, and once again he fumbled with the yellow and orange. It's weird, he starts out so well with the blue and green and I think to myself, "This is it, he's gonna do it in record speed!" But then he doesn't because the yellow one messes it up. Weird.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Canyx said:


> We tried a few more rounds tonight and we can't seem to break 8 seconds!


How are you timing this? by reviewing the video after the fact?

You might want to try devising a way to gauge this accurately in 'real-time', while it's happening. Then withhold reinforcement for sub-criteria performances. I think Soro is confident enough with the trick that it won't crush him.

I see 7 seconds on the horizon.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Yes, I time by watching the video and using a stopwatch. I start it when Soro picks up the toy, and end it when the last ring falls in place.
That's good advice. Not sure if I am capable of keeping time for an entire round with all four rings, but I can perhaps work with each ring individually and reward for clean stacks with no fumbles, then gradually incease the number of rings he does seamlessly in succession!


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