# Breeder Question



## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

So...If a breeder's website says...

WE ARE NOT A PUPPY MILL!!!

Are they being truthful, or could they be lying?


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## KelliCZ (Aug 1, 2008)

Sounds like they have been accused in the past - 

I would look for the following info to help decide if they are a Mill or Backyard breeder. 
Do they show and/or tiltle their dogs? 
How many littler do they breed per year ? 
Do they do any health testing for problems in the breed? 
Do they sell on a spay/neuter contract?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah they do all of that and more, so I guess maybe it's just like so people know?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Methinks they doth protest too much.....I wouldn't trust 'em.

Edit: I saw where you said they test and show and do everything "right". Hmm. They must have been spammed big time. I still think they're being too defensive. If they are secure in the knowledge that they're doing everything right, they shouldn't have to defend themselves; they should be able to let their methods speak for themselves.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

That's what I was thinking, cause I mean, obviously if they were a reputable breeder, they wouldn't have to say they were...


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Honestly, if they do everything else in line I wouldn't let something so little black ball the breeder. A lot of sites have that to distinguish themselves from the mass of other websites. Sort of a "Don't message me if you are simply looking for a quick buy" sort of thing. They want people to understand right off that their kennel is not run that way.

Of course there ARE sites out there that are lying...but like I said, if everything else is right then I don't see this as any big reason to be mistrusting.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Sounds like a small flag, but not something that would make or break or my decision.

Do you have the breeder's website?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Ok, well I am looking for a wolfhound in a couple years so I've been e-mailing a lot of breeders who ship here, and then checking to see if they are good or not.

this was just a random site I came upon, it says it in the 2nd Paragraph.

http://www.irishwolfhounds4sale.com/index.html

ok and this next thing is a little confusing, but they posted their website on a site and it said this...

"~Loving Irish Wolfhounds for over 13 yrs. We are a small family owned kennel of Quality, AKC, True-To-Breed type Wolfies. We put lots of TIME, LOVE & CARE into our Wolfies. All our Wolfies come from Quality, AKC, Champion Bloodlines. Our puppies are Vet checked, Vaccinated, De-wormed, Microchipped and come with a Written Health Warranty. We take exceptional care of our pregnant mamas & babies as well. We are NOT a puppy-mill! We only have two hansom guys & two beautiful ladies. All our Wolfies come from nice champion bloodlines and are true-to-breed type with lots of bone. Our females start at 120lbs, our males starting at 150 lbs & reaching 34" at the shoulder."

And this is their site

http://www.blackandwhitepainthorses.com/AboutWolfies.html


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

About the second one: do they show and title their dogs, and do health checks? They've stated that their dogs come from champion lines, but are their dogs champions themselves? I don't see any show photos or titles in their names. 

I'd also like a bit more information about their health testing than "all our dogs are vet-checked." Guess what, my dogs are vet-checked too.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah exactly, that one was one of the least informative, the most was laloba ranch. When I e-mailed her, she gave me pages and pages of information on her past and future dogs, what tests have been done, pictures off their show titles, etc...And her site also had plenty of information but she supplied me with even more!


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

You definitely want a breeder that will give you information overload...any breeder that tries to sweep things under the rug is a bad one to me.


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

This is the breeder I got my Barclay from, this is his Mum

http://onthevoyager.com/Katherine.htm

You can see at the bottom how the breeder lists her information to show her hips, elbows, and eyes were tested for genetic problems. You can see the tests have a range of results (good, normal, clear) and you'll want to learn about the conditions that apply to your breed and the results and what it all means. A good breeder should have this information and share it gladly. 

I think when you start talking to breeders, it should become clear who is a good breeder and who is not. You'll probably find people you feel comfortable with, and ones that send up red flags. I wouldn't buy a pup without meeting the parents in person, seeing where the parents are kept and where the pups were raised. To me that is part of the benefit of going with a reputable breeder. Plus when you're checking a breeder out, they should be checking you out just as carefully if they really care about where their puppy goes!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Do they HEALTH TEST? Wolfies are a giant breed nad have MANY of the same problems found in large and giant breed dogs including cardiac, HD, ED, Knee and Thyroid problems. 

They may not be a puppy mill, but they MAY be a Back Yard Breeder, which is just as bad IMO.

I don't see any info on health testing nor do I see titles of ANY kind on any of the dogs being bred. BYB at the best. The first takes Paypal and credit cards, not a good sign.


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

So, a breeder website with basically no information about the kennel or the dogs, but pictures of nine breeding males and nine breeding females, not to mention the slogan "Blending the true Japanese Chin with the American Chin," is probably a bad choice, right?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah, I know what you mean BarclaysMom, after talking to more than 15, I see who is good and who is not so good. That second site may be an okay breeder, but when trying to find an Irish Wolfhound, like cshellenberger said, good health testing is a must.

Those two were ones that I did not e-mail, because they seemed pretty fishy. The good breeders over the internet require me to fly there to meet them and get the dog after approval. 

What type of payment system would a good breeder use?


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

IMO Reputable breeders do not sell over the Internet. I would guess they (Wolfie breeders) are either BYB's or a Hobby Breeder.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I know of a few breeders that I consider reputable that use Paypal, but they don't 'advertise' it and they use it for deposits only. Some others do accept credit cards, but again, they don't advertise it nor do they allow anyone to use either that haven't been preapproved to recieve a pup. Most breeders I know accept cash, check, money orders or cashiers checks. 

Yes, a reputable breeder will want to meet you before they approve you to have one of their pups, they may also require a home inspection (I've done a couple of these for breeders that were too far away to do it themselves).


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

Is hobby breeding really that wrong as long as the parents and puppies are in good health and tested and whatnot? Most people will never show their dogs anyway and are just looking for a certain breed for a cheaper price that will be a companion.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Patt said:


> IMO Reputable breeders do not sell over the Internet. I would guess they (Wolfie breeders) are either BYB's or a Hobby Breeder.


 
I know many that use the internet to promote their programs but no they don't sell to internet buyers, they care too much for their dogs.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

ok, so then, the best type of internet breeder, would be the ones where they require you to fly and meet them to check everything out and interview you and such, not just ship the pup to someone they've never met?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Ender said:


> Is hobby breeding really that wrong as long as the parents and puppies are in good health and tested and whatnot? Most people will never show their dogs anyway and are just looking for a certain breed for a cheaper price that will be a companion.


 
Hobby breeding? That's not hobby breeding, that's Back Yard breeding. Hobby breeding is the breeding of proven (conformationally and work-ability), health tested dogs that IMPROVE the breed. 

Most back yard breeders have NO knowledge of genetics, which dogs can improve their programs, which dogs will be a detriment. They do nothing to avoid breeding in health problems, temperment problems or conformation faults that are a detriment to the breed. BYB and Puppy mills are the reason we have such a huge pet overpopulation problem, dogs with severe congenital health problems.



pepper said:


> ok, so then, the best type of internet breeder, would be the ones where they require you to fly and meet them to check everything out and interview you and such, not just ship the pup to someone they've never met?


*exactly!!!! *


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## PugChick (Nov 5, 2007)

Pepper said:


> And this is their site
> 
> http://www.blackandwhitepainthorses.com/AboutWolfies.html


I don't know about dogs, but their _horses_. Ewww...I don't think crappy BYB is a strong enough label. 

I doubt they can be utterly and totally irresponsible in one area and then make a 180 and be responsible when it comes to dogs.


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Hobby breeding? That's not hobby breeding, that's Back Yard breeding. Hobby breeding is the breeding of proven (conformationally and work-ability), health tested dogs that IMPROVE the breed.
> 
> Most back yard breeders have NO knowledge of genetics, which dogs can improve their programs, which dogs will be a detriment. They do nothing to avoid breeding in health problems, temperment problems or conformation faults that are a detriment to the breed. BYB and Puppy mills are the reason we have such a huge pet overpopulation problem, dogs with severe congenital health problems.


Yes, I know this. I was asking about hobby breeding since you seemed to lump it with BYBs.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I think what Ender means by hobby breeding is like, not showing their dogs, getting them health checked and such, but just breeding occasionally. I think?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

When did I lump responsible Hobby breeding and BYB? I do however think there's a fine line between them.


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

Yes, exactly!^^ And most hobby breeders do charge less for their puppies than the "real" breeders. That's what I meant about people just wanting cheaper companion animals.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Pepper said:


> I think what Ender means by hobby breeding is like, not showing their dogs, getting them health checked and such, but just breeding occasionally. I think?


If you don't show (or feild trail or have other 'working' titles) and don't HEALTH TEST you are a BYB.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Sorry, I meant, getting them health checked, just not showing, etc...
Do good breeders have to show their dogs, I guess they would have too if they are working for the "bettering" of the breed.

By george I think I'm learning!


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

I think you misunderstood or something went wrong somewhere and this isn't coming out right. Sigh. When you said it sounds like a BYB or Hobby breeder, I thought you believed both to be bad. So, I asked what was wrong with hobby breeding as long as the parents and puppies ARE health tested and taken care of, etc.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

1. What breed clubs does the breeder belong to, especially the National Breed Club.
2. What payment form does the breeder take? If they take Credit cards, that's a red flag.
3. Some responsible breeders, especially of rarer breeds, will ship but they will have had many conversations with you, asked lots of questions, expected many questions, had you fill out an application of some kind, and possibly even had someone they knew that lived near you come and check you out.

4. Your best online source for responsible breeders is the breed's national breed club site.


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## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/

Have you looked here yet?

I did a quick search if you look under rescue there is a person in Alaska.
THAT would be a person to contact, you may find some that already are living in Alaska and you won't have to have it shipped.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

kacaju said:


> http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/
> 
> Have you looked here yet?
> 
> ...


Yup, I did the same search and passed her the rescue contact... not sure whether that gave her any leads, though.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Ender said:


> I think you misunderstood or something went wrong somewhere and this isn't coming out right. Sigh. When you said it sounds like a BYB or Hobby breeder, I thought you believed both to be bad. So, I asked what was wrong with hobby breeding as long as the parents and puppies ARE health tested and taken care of, etc.


Carla didn't say that Patt did 
and I think that is incorrect..... Hobby breeders are generally those who show, and do health testing and are working toward betterment of the breed BUT do not sell dogs as their primary income or means of supporting themselves.... thats what makes them hobby breeders..... 

BYB are what all have mentioned above.... 

as for this breeder..... I would not trust them.... they give no information.... champion lineage means nothing.... absolutely nothing.... it means there were champions in the pedigree but what does that mean??? 

I agree wtih the others who stated that I.W. have some big time problems and going to a reputable breeder is a must..... 

s


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## Sharon R. (Jul 7, 2007)

Yep, I wouldn't go with either of these breeders. Neither states that they have their dogs tested for health problems, other than getting them vet checked. And the first one states that putting down a deposit will insure that you get a puppy. Not good. Neither seems to want you to fill out an application.

When I got my dog, it was long distance. I had to do an application, plus we exchanged several emails and phone calls before I was approved. She was adamantly against shipping, I had to fly up there and pick up my puppy. But I was happy to do it. Knew I was getting a quality pup from a quality breeder.

Sounds like these folks love their dogs, and they're not a puppy mill, but they're not trying to improve the breed, they're trying to make $.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Pepper said:


> Sorry, I meant, getting them health checked, just not showing, etc...
> Do good breeders have to show their dogs, I guess they would have too if they are working for the "bettering" of the breed.
> 
> By george I think I'm learning!


 
I don't thinlk it's entirely neccesary to show every dog they breed in conformation (but they should be showing conformation), working titles are JUST as good. Personally I like to see both. 


Ender, I never said these people sound like Hobby breeders, that would be a slap in the face to Hobby breeders. Shalva's Definition is spot on with my definition of a hobby breeder.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

If a person is not showing their dogs or competing in some way... then they darned well be able to explain to me why not? 

I have seen to many kennel blind people who say things like "well I know they are good dogs" or "I know they would win and would be successful" 
I think that is a load of bunk..... 

in my mind dogs need to prove that they are worth breeding and a dog show or other event allows a third party to evaluate the dog..... this not showing and not competing and still breeding is a red flag of a backyard breeder..... 

I understand that there are dogs who can't be shown for whatever reason.... then have them do something else.... I don't think conformation is the end all.... so put other titles on the dog... do something..... and be ready to explain to me why you are breeding an unfinished dog..... why are you breeding a dog that does not have a conformation championship.... there are good reasons out there.... few and far between but yes some good reasons.... so be prepared to explain.... 

S


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Gosh, Shalva, I don't think it is so very black and white. By your definition, I am a BYB...

Pearl was never in the show ring and she certainly was never worked. Cakey was shown twice as a baby (although there is still hope for her as she isn't even three yet), and I'm planning on breeding her as well...


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

wabanafcr said:


> Gosh, Shalva, I don't think it is so very black and white. By your definition, I am a BYB...
> 
> Pearl was never in the show ring and she certainly was never worked. Cakey was shown twice as a baby (although there is still hope for her as she isn't even three yet), and I'm planning on breeding her as well...


no what I said was be prepared to explain WHY .... 

read what I said.... I said I didn't believe that conformation was the end all but someone better have a darned good reason for doing what they are doing... and be able to explain why they are breeding a dog with no titles on them.... not necessarily conformation but something..... 

I think that there are reasons why a dog would not be shown.... but not doing anything with your dogs and breeding I see as a big problem.... 

I have friends who have made every excuse in the book why they can't show their dogs and yet insist that they have the most beautiful and perfect dogs in the world..... yet they never put themselves out there to actually do ANYTHING with their dogs. 

No obedience, no agility, no hunt, no conformation, nothing..... and that to me is a problem..... 

You do things with your dogs..... and you will also have evaluated and have reasons for doign what you are doing.... if I go to a breeder and they haven't done antyhing with their dogs then they better be able to explain to me why not..... and why they are then breeding dogs that haven't proven themselves.... and those other reasons may be health related... or longevity related or whatever.... but there should be a reason.... and I don't think that it should be the norm of their breeding program..... 

S


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

To Kacaju and Rosemaryninja I did talk to that woman that was supposedly a rescue in Alaska, she only lives about 20 minutes from me, but she is not a rescue, she has a few wolfhounds of her own, but doesn't really rescue anything, unless one happens to show up, which she said is very rare.

Yeah I agree about I.W.'s needing a reputable breeder.
I think showing proves that your dogs are best of the best and can be best of the best, and you don't always have to show, I.W. can do lure coursing. I think it proves that you are trying to better the breed by proving you are breeding two champion, health cleared dogs together, and the few "good" breeders I've e-mailed all say the same thing, spay and neuter contract, fly here to get them, application, health tests for I.W.'s genetic problems, etc...It's worth the money, the one site I'm am really positive on getting a puppy requires all of that and more, and the dog is about 2000 and the plane ticket about...2000...so it'll take some saving, but i'd rather have a healthy dog than a cheaper dog from a byb, even if they "love" their dogs.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Being that my BF wants an IW I've wandered around quite a few breeders websites. I've also been to just about every Afghan Breeders website that's posted in english; I visited the ones in other languages as well, I just don't understand what the say. But the large sighthounds are a slightly different ball game when it comes to breeders placing pups and thier websites, however I have not looking at the particular breeders websites yet.

Since the breeds have very large litters, offten at least 10, it makes them appear at times to be just breeding for volume when if fact it was only one litter. Often times large dog breeders also have to get a kennel license thru thier state or local government, merly because they have so many pups that are born that they have to sell each year. The high volume and kennel liscense tend to have a negative connotation regarding breeders in todays society. That's often why some breeders feel it nesscisary to mention they aren't a puppy mill, either to assure potential buyers or to ward off nasty AR calls. I'm not sure if this meathod really helps or hurts them but I wouldn't rule out a breeder soley based on the one comment.

Sighthound breeders are extremeel particular where their pups go, not that any other breeder isn't. Sighthounds are unlike most dog breeds and need a certain type of owner for them to really get on well. You can almost compare it to there being cat people and dog people, but instead there's dog people and then there's sighthound people. Most breeders, if they lived in a perfect world, would be able to place thier pups localy near them. For sighthounds there just isn't a huge demand for them so they will often place thier dogs further away. Every sighthound breed has a very tight knit community, so often a breeder will have you meet with another breeder and do a home check if your unable to meet. It's also quite common for breeders to meet new owners half way, usualy at a dog show. However as you said almost every breeder will require you or someone they know to fly with the dog to it's new home, and it really is best if it's you.


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

I think there are a lot of different kinds of breeders, it's hard to classify them. There is a golden retriever breeder in Oregon who appears to produce very nice dogs. I have a friend who did a lot of research and got their pup from them, and their dog is wonderful. 

They do health testing, but they do not show. They are serious breeders. I certainly wouldn't consider them a BYB, and they are not hobby breeders. I would say I'd consider them a reputable breeder of pet quality dogs. They produce a lot of puppies, but there is a high demand for GRs. Their prices are in line with a pet quality dog, about $700, which is certainly less than you would pay for a show GR.

http://www.oakgrovegoldens.com/

I'm considering that after our Dal passes away we might get a pup from them. My hubby has always wanted a golden, and it just needs to be a healthy pet-quality dog. Since GR have more health issues than temperment issues (american eskimos are the opposite, more temperment issues than health issues), to me the health testing and the way the parents are treated are the most important issues. You want a healthy puppy, and you don't want to support people who don't treat their dogs right. I think those are the main issues.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

After having looked at both the IW breeders websites; I would run far and fast from them for much larger reasons then "they aren't a puppymill" comment.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah they were just two random sites I have come across, nothing that I am going to research further, but they are examples of where not to get a puppy.


About the shipping thing, one site said, If this were a perfect world we could place all of our dogs locally but this is not a perfect world so some must be shipped across the U.S.

They are Sarken Kennels, are they good, or are they bad?
Can you check out Laloba ranch? You guys seem to be very knowledgable on if they are reputable or not.

Laloba ranch,(my number one choice) when I e-mailed them, replied with pages of info that I didn't even ask for, including health tests going back years on all of their dogs, on all the health problems that plague the giant sight hounds, how to take care of them, they require a down payment too hold the pup, and require me to fly out and get them, and much more.


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## Sharon R. (Jul 7, 2007)

Unfortunately, many of the Sporting breeds have a split between show and field lines. So if I were looking for an Irish Setter, for example, to hunt with, I wouldn't be expecting conformation titles. Now in an ideal world, I'd find a breeder who was making an effort to close that gap and do both, but those are few and far between. But that would be one of the only reasons that no showing would be OK.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

The Laloba Ranch has a lovely website and all the information that the give you is wnderfull. I especially like where they say they play Celtic music to the pups. ut neither website tells me what they do with thier dogs. There's no information about showing or health testing them. Sarken doesn't have any dogs registered with OFA under that kennel name; and Laloba only has 1, but it's not a dog listed on thier website and there's no information on the dogs relatives.

The first 2 things I would want to know specificaly from them is what health testing they do(which tests, with who, and ratings) and if/what sort of competitve activites with thier dogs(i.e. shows, lure, etc.)

You said Laloba gave you health test going back years, what test were they and why don't they speak of it on their website.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

After I asked her if she shipped, nothing about information on her dogs or anything, she sent me, ALL OF THIS.

Dear Sara,

We do not have a lot of litters, but we will probably still be breeding an occasional litter in a couple of years. we do not ship unless someone flies with the puppy. The pup can usually go on an inexpensive companion ticket in such cases.

And Thank you for your inquiry and interest into our pups. We always have a fairly long notification list and our pups are usually sold to approved homes as soon as they are born. It would be wise to get on our approved list since sometimes it can take a little time before we will have a pup available for you if you are approved. We will not be having another litter for sometime....next spring, at the earliest if we decide to breed Lochie and if we find a healthy and proper "outside" stud dog for her. Tali may also be bred sometime next year. Do let me know if you wish to be considered for those babies. We have already started a list for those pups as well.

Raising a healthy Irish wolfhound to adulthood is a bit different than raising other breeds to a healthy maturity. Wolfhounds are different in many many ways in their requirements as you may already know (exercise, anesthesia, antibiotics etc). If you are interested in a good book to either buy or borrow from the library, I would highly recommend getting the book THE MAGNIFICENT IRISH WOLFHOUND by Mary McBryde. The U.S. version is called THE IRISH WOLFHOUND, SYMBOL OF CELTIC SPLENDOR but goes in and out of print and gets very expensive. You can order either from AMAZON. It is a great resource and is a coffee table quality and costs $60-$70. Also, We do put together a very extensive puppy book that we insist on going over new puppy parents personally.

Perhaps more than you want to know right now, but FYI: Here is some information about our dogs: Our main Sire, Alfie, who is going on 9 (and still extremely active - moves with lightning speed if he wants) years old is 35 plus " at the shoulder. Our Grand Dam, Kosai who is no longer being bred, is going on 8 years old and is 31" at the shoulder. They are Rose and Lochen's parents, and they are both very very active and healthy. Their off spring seem to have surpassed them both in height with most of the males being 37-39 inches. We kept one male from 3 years ago, Taita, who at 9 months had topped his father in height. He is currently close to 38" at the shoulder. 

Lochie and Rose who are daughters of our main sire and Dam, stand 1 and 2 inches taller than their mother. Lochie is 33" at the shoulder, sweet, and of course very athletic. She is extremely smart and we call her the great communicator. We have learned to listen to her. We have already acquired many stories about her communication skills. 

Sammie who is mentioned above, is 36" at the shoulder and is of a slightly different line) was bred to Taita this past year. She will most likely not be bred again since she also has had two litters. However, we have kept two of her daughters, Tali, an Alfie daughter, and Mollie, a Taita daughter. If you look on our web site under hounds of Laloba, we do have movies of Taita, Rose, and Lochie playing in our field last spring and some newer ones from this past spring. The movies take a bit to load up, but you can see how our hounds move freely. We have excellent lines(although the mom and dad have not been shown, they are conformationally correct and come from significant championship lines). One of the pups from two litters ago (Lochie and Rose's full brother) received his National and International Championship at 10 and a half months of age. He is now on his way to his adult championship and supposedly measures 39 plus. A girl from Sammie's first litter(Rose and lochie's 1/2 sister) born year two years ago March received Best of Breed and Best of Bitches at her very first TWO show. Her owner is hoping to have her championship done soon. Alfie's brother was invited to the Eukanuba Tournament of Champions last year. One of Lochie’s babies from last year, @ 6 months old, took Best of Breed @ her very first show. Her name is Torean and can be seen on our web site in the proud pup parent section. Last summer, We showed our Rose baby from her first litter, 8 month old Billie Roisin took Best Puppy, Best of Bitches, and Best of Oppositie Sex in Best of Breed category. Our only expectation with her was just for her and us to have fun! And please note that although it is nice for our dogs to be shown through “show homes” our emphasis is always, always on the home. 

In checking with breeders on our foundation sire and dam's side, we understand Our lines are considered healthy, long lived, and not prone(although there are not guarantees on what could crop up as in any other breed...wish there could be guarantees!) to some of the illnesses like bone cancer and heart disease that can afflict large breeds and shorten their life span. There are many generations of healthy sound dogs. It is not unusual for dogs in our female's line to live to be 12- 13(Her Grandmother was put to sleep @ almost 13) and for our male 11-12 years. Our Sire’s mother is still alive and well at her ranch at over 12 plus. His father was put to sleep at 8 and a half, but not from a dreaded “wolfhound disease” but from complications caused by Rimydyl. We also have a great grand parent in our line who currently is 14. We also have OFA hip certification "Excellent" on several of the grandparents as well as a few two year olds, although we haven't had it done on the foundation parents. Per our veterinarians’s advice, We will do that if they happen to need to go under anesthesia(procedures that require anesthesia are not to be considered lightly for wolfhounds and giant breeds) for some other reason, but we wont do that before that opportunity arrives. We have done in house Xrays on heart(the vet said "this is the kind of heart we like to see") and hips(not OFA) and we have done VonWillebrands test....all results were negative. And we have had many of our adults and the pups that we have kept heart tested with EKGs...all are normal, and we will continue to check. Our vet has performed physical manipulation on our dogs and has said that he is very sure that our dogs are not subject to hip dysplasia. None of our pups have ever been diagnosed with it. And all of our dogs have proven to be very athletic. Rose,much to our chagrin, is capable of jumping a 5 and half foot fence at will, and Lochen, her full sister is just as athletic although she does not seem to have the same inclination to check the green grass on the other side! We will be doing the CHIC required testing(eyes, hips, elbows, and heart) for registration with our next generation of girls. I hope to get Lochie and Tali, and Billie tests done this fall.

It sounds like you are vets so please forgive me if I am overstepping here. We are also very concerned with proper nutrition for our dogs and for our pups and we are convinced that excellent high quality food, proper exercise right from the beginning has a lot to do with the health and longevity of our lines...just as it would in any human. We also do NOT want our pups spayed or neutered until they are finished growing which takes up to 3 years unless there are some extenuating circumstances that are discussed with us first. There are many recent studies from top vet schools to support this. Hormones are protective and we would consider pre-pubescent neutering to be extremely cruel and compromising to the health of a hound. That being said, we never want anything to get in the way of a family's enjoyment of their hound.

All of our pups are released with health guarantee at the time of purchase and all will have had the appropriate shots and wormings. They are also warranted against any genetic defects . They are ranch and home raised with a lot of socialization with people as well as other animals. They are handled and loved from the moment that they are born, and we do a “Super dog” training (neurological sensory stimulation) with them from day one that has proven to raise healthier, more intelligent, and adaptable pups. This is training that is based on a program developed by the U.S. Military. We release our pups to go to their new homes around 10 weeks of age. All of our pups come with registration papers for the AKC and leave with extensive notebook we put together on care and feeding, other pertinent wolfhound information(including recent medical and nutritional research), and an 8 generational pedigree. Our pedigrees are also on our web site.

*more*


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Let me know if you definitely wish to be on our notification list or adoption list. Notification goes out for each litter when the breeding occurs and then again when the ultra sound is done and pregnancy is confirmed. If you wish to proceed with approval, We would need a veterinary reference (phone number will do) as soon as possible and a time to call you to discuss the possibility, and photographs of the surrounds that a puppy would call home. After approval, and just before the pups are born when we do a head count, we would then need the $500. deposit to hold the pup. All of our pups are currently $1850. It is possible if an outside stud dog is involved that the price could be $2000.

You may also see more photos of the Mom and Dad and previous litters on our web site which is www.lalobaranch.com you may click on Irish wolfhounds in the navigation section on the left which should take you to our hound sub site and the photos in our albums and gallery as well as movies which is a separate album under HOUNDS OF LALOBA. Most of the photos of the pups are submitted by the pup parents but there are also many photos ot the adults on the ranch and the pups that we have kept. If you have trouble accessing any of the information, let me know and I will send it to you in e-mail.

Please note that we are very careful about the placement of our puppies and again, as I mentioned, we do require a veterinary reference and a contract concerning their care....which basically also insures that if for some reason you can not keep the IW, you will contact us and confer about the next home or return the dog to us. The contract on our web site is a sample contract and could be subject to slight change. In the contract that you may view, We also require that our pup parents stay in touch with us AT LEAST once a year for an update. However, we generally hear from most of them fairly regularly. We want to know if there are any problems that crop up and we also want to be supportive of the pup parents and the pup that we loved and cherished in early life. As I said above, We, of course, also warrant the pup’s health at the time of sale and against any genetic defects. We do not have an application per se(many people will send us a signed copy of the contract as their intent and then we sign a new one when they pick up their pup), but we do require to see photos of the potential home and its surroundings including fencing and containment areas outside for the dog at home, at least a telephone interview, the vet reference mentioned above, and we prefer and give preference to people who can pick the pup up personally. 

As breeders and lovers of this breed, We take our guardianship of this breed very seriously. We do ask everyone the same questions...Why do you want a wolfhound? Have you had a wolfhound or any giant breed before? Is somebody home during the day? Do you work outside the home (or could you take a dog with you?)? Do you have a fenced area? Other dogs? kids? Ages? As I said, We try to be very careful about the placement of our pups in appropriate homes, and the right pup for the right home. We must be assured that the pup will live in the home with the family and have a safe area outside in which to play and develop. We also give preference to the people allow us to meet them, and who will pick up the pup personally, and of course, We welcome visitors at anytime except when we are in quarantine before a litter of pups has their shots. 

Again, Thanks for your interest and good luck in your search for a pup, and feel free to contact us again if you have further questions. And do let us know as soon as possible if you are definitely interested in a future litter and wish to proceed with an approval. And if you want a pup at a time that we don't have pups, we would be happy to help you find a responsible breeder. As you probably may already know, You must be careful when selecting a pup and a breeder who will stand behind their lines and "be there" so to speak. You probably already know that this is a breed that is too open to heartache(premature deaths from heart disease, cancer etc). I would also only recommend breeders who are kind to their breeding stock. Raising a healthy litter that is sound in body and mind is a lot of hard and constant work with lives at stake. We firmly believe Girls should not be bred before 2(we even wait til they are at least 2 and a half and often 3), nor should they become puppy mills with back to back litters, and very importantly Irish Wolfhound pups because of their rapid growth as babies, should not be released before 10 weeks of age which is also the reason that early neonatal handling is so very important with them. I am sure I don't have to tell you that A good breeder working toward the good of the breed should be honest and open and not offended by any questions you may ask and should always be receptive to a visit. Rescue organizations, while they can not officially recommend, are also an excellent source to finding good responsible breeders and often can guide you to good dogs and good breeders. Forgive the rambling length of this letter, and Please forgive my little bit of preachiness!

Sincerely,
Judie Day,
Laloba Ranch Irish Wolfhounds


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

BarclaysMom said:


> I think there are a lot of different kinds of breeders, it's hard to classify them. There is a golden retriever breeder in Oregon who appears to produce very nice dogs. I have a friend who did a lot of research and got their pup from them, and their dog is wonderful.
> 
> They do health testing, but they do not show. They are serious breeders. I certainly wouldn't consider them a BYB, and they are not hobby breeders. I would say I'd consider them a reputable breeder of pet quality dogs. They produce a lot of puppies, but there is a high demand for GRs. Their prices are in line with a pet quality dog, about $700, which is certainly less than you would pay for a show GR.
> 
> ...


I would run far away from them too! Find a responsible breeder to sell you a pet quality pup - not that puppy mill.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

What caused you to believe they were a puppy mill?


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Did you _look_ at their website??? http://www.oakgrovegoldens.com/ 
They are a very puppy-mill-ish backyard breeder at best. No health testing, lots of litters, no mention of showing...not real responsible. Now I am not a Golden expert, but their dogs have horrible conformation to boot.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Did you _look_ at their website??? http://www.oakgrovegoldens.com/
> They are a very puppy-mill-ish backyard breeder at best. No health testing, lots of litters, no mention of showing...not real responsible. Now I am not a Golden expert, but their dogs have horrible conformation to boot.


OMG. Did you guys see this dog??
http://www.oakgrovegoldens.com/lineage_reggie.php
Is that supposed to be a Golden?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Maybe it's a bad....umm....angle? lol


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Personaly, just based on the info that has been given, I would not go with Laloba at least not yet. She does not show or health test her animals. Sure she says she'll will, but untill she does I would not go with her.



> We will be doing the CHIC required testing(eyes, hips, elbows, and heart) for registration with our next generation of girls.


Why change her mind about health testing halfway thru? Sure her vet advised her against the OFA testing, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since they have had thier hips x-rayed and palpated. But what about the other tests? They don't need to be put under for any of those, which seems was their main concern. It's also intresting that her next generation of girls that she's considering breeding and says will have health tests dont have thier pedigree's listed. In fact the only info you have on her next generation of girls is a few photo's in thier gallery, which tells you nothing about them.




> they are conformationally correct and come from significant championship lines





> we understand Our lines are considered healthy


Why doesn't she back up what she's saying by proving it. If they are as wonderfull as she makes them out to be then it shouldn't be difficult to get a title or pass health tests. And her championship lines mean nothing when the most recent CH in any of the pedigrees she posted is the grandparent of one of her males. IMO she's riding on the coat tails of other breeders sucess and dedication to the breed. Until she actually does something with her dogs besides breed them I would look else where.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

They don't have to be put under for OFA x-rays either- it's the vet's call.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Dogstar said:


> They don't have to be put under for OFA x-rays either- it's the vet's call.


Yeah that's what I was getting at. And from what the breeder said I got the impression that her dogs have no problem with akward positioning on thier hips if they were palpated by the vet. If the techs are properly trained on how to do OFA x-rays then there's a very small percentage of dogs that would actually require going under for a good shot. When I did hip x-ra at the vet hospital we usually tried to get as close to an OFA style x-ray as we could. At minimum their vet have tried to do it without drugs and if it wasn't possible to get the shot then wait till they have to go under for something else. It just makes no sense to me why a breeder wouldn't do any testing at all because they were advised the dogs would have to be put under for hips; and it makes even less sense for a vet to advise not to do health testing on a breeding animal.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Well Alright, since they don't seem to be completely up to par, and they were the best I've found so far...I e-mailed the Official Canadian irish wolfhound website, and their secretery who can refur me to reputable breeders in Canada.

And hopefully that works out..


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Oh my I think I found the best breeder ever....lol....

I asked her what kind of health testing she does for her dogs, and not only did she spell my name wrong, when I said hello, this is...Sara...

She said this..

Sarah-I do not do any testing on my dogs; some breeders do, some don't. Pups are $1,200 (Limited reg.=no breeding) plus shipping, which is about $350 right now-who knows what it will be in a couple of years?!! All pups come with a 2 year health guarantee. I am hurrying for work right now, but will get back to you later in the weekend. My main criteria for a person who wishes to buy an IW from me is that I like them.....


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Wow that's a ringer. And you wonder why people give up or just go to the pet store.

I'd be curious to see what other breeders Laloba would recomend. While I wouldn't go with them they are the best so far. You realy need to find a breeder that shows or does lure coursing on a regular basis since they should know just about everyong local to them in the breed.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I have found a few good breeders, that have been recommended by the American and Canadian clubs of Irish wolfhounds.

So hopefully those will pay off.

I've talked to a few and they seem pretty good so far.


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## bcpon (Jun 19, 2008)

I bought a puppy after finding a breeder's website once and it went fine. They were in California and I am in Florida and I didn't fly out to meet them. They were members/officers in the parent breed club, did health testing (with proof), showed their dogs, etc. I filled out a 4 page application on the net and then the breeder called me. After spending 2 hours on the phone discussing feeding philosophy, vaccination schedules, what I was looking for, my current dogs and what we did, my training philosophy, my home situation, etc., she told me about a puppy from a current litter. I wasn't looking for a puppy immediately but had started the search early because this is a rather rare breed. After seeing some pictures and reading the pedigree, though, I decided she needed to come to Florida and 1.5 weeks later she landed at the airport. That pup is now 3.5 and she's a totaly love. Ok...she's actually rather obnoxious but that's a breed thing. We wouldn't trade her for the world. It worked in our case but we had some loooooong phone conversations! We still do!


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Are you talking about an I.W.?


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## bcpon (Jun 19, 2008)

Sorry to say no...but if you're ever interested in something smaller and shaggier I can give you a few recommendations! I only posted to say it is possible to have form a good relationship with a reputable breeder from an online search. You do have to weed out quite a few sites, though. I've always found the best success going to the parent club and starting with their breeder referrals. This probably isn't the best suggestion in some instances (working bred dogs), but I've found my PON girl this way and a kerry blue for my mother-in-law that turned out to be a group winning bitch and a bang up foundation bitch for her lines.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

yeah I was just wondering if you were talking about an I.W. lol

Yeah I've been weeding out the bad sites, and I did go to the national clubs in both america and canada and e-mailed them and they have referred me to some breeders in washington and orgeon, and I've got one breeder right now who ships and she's in....Denver and I love her site and the way se worries about the health of her animals...

She replied to me when I asked if she shipped...and she just lost one of her dogs at 2 to a heart problem and was so upset, her vet informed her it was just a fluke of nature because of his size and these things happen but because of that she is not going to breed for a while and make sure all the siblings of him know what has happened, and she even has I.W.'s here in Alaska! 

But she told me to keep in touch since I don't want one now, but in a few years. She also said she is going to try and make summer breedings so the airlines will be able to ship.


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