# Obedience Front



## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

I've been working on lots of little stuff with Bear, and I'm having a bit of an issue. We've been practicing him coming to me from across the room and sitting in front of me, however, I can't quite figure out how to get him to sit properly. When he approaches, his feet are right in front of mine, but when he sits, he moves his front legs back as opposed to tucking his bum under him, making him sit too far away. Any tips on teaching him to scoot his bum under him to sit and keep his front legs in place?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I had to re-teach this to Frag for the same purpose. I lured him sideways to my right with a treat in front of his face, said sit, and held his butt with my left hand so that he couldn't back up, and lured the treat away from him while pushing lightly down with my left hand on his bum to encourage him to stay there and sit, as opposed to treat over the head making them back up sit. Does this make sense? I could get a video if you need.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Number one, and foremost, teach fronts SEPARATE FROM ANY RECALL WORK. when you are working recalls, you should reward the dog for coming in quickly, and do not pay attention to anything else. No sit front, nothing. If you work things for precision after the dog comes in, you recall will slow down.

Next, I first teach attention with the dog in the front position. I will ask the dog to sit, and *I* assume the front position, and reward the dog for being in place. Fronts take a LONG TIME, so don't be in a rush. You can do an internet search for videos on people teaching fronts. It is best to teach this completely hands off, as the dog will have to find a correct front on his own later. Not sure if there is any of this on my youtube vids, but probably is if you care to go look. search RedyreRotties.


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## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

By too far I assume you mean you can't reach forward and touch your dog? (that is the obed criteria.. I have seen judges ask a competitor if they can reach their dog) 

You could teach a tuck sit separate. I have heard of this issue being more of a problem with heeling and large dogs, the person stops the dog rocks back into a sit and is now lagging. If this isn't a problem in the heel, just shape it. Reward for closer and closer sits. Too far.. no cookie. 

I wholeheartedly agree with Red, teach a front separate.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

The AKC rule book says that when in a front, "the dog must be close enough to its handler so that the handler _could_ touch its head without _excessive_ bending, stretching, or moving either foot." (my emphasis). The judge is NOT supposed to question the handler or ask the handler to demonstrate by actually touching the dog - it is a judgement call by the judge that depends on the size of the dog and of the handler. 


It is worth repeating what has already been said twice - you need BOTH a front AND a recall. 

This may seem confusing at first, but if you look over the various types of "recalls", you will see that they actually form a pattern of behavior. A "front" is part of that pattern, but it is generally not the whole pattern. Similarly, if you look over the various types of "fronts", you will see that many of them involve no "recall" at all. For both teaching purposes and for performance, it is very important to teach and to maintain a front behavior separate from the recall behavior.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

I agree with hands off and I agree with recall and sit being separate.

I would try shaping, differential reinforcement and successive approximations. Only reward what is on the way to correct and jackpot (have a party) when the dog does what you want.

Never hurts to bring a vet in on this. The dog could have a hip or knee issue that prevents him from sittling like you want.


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## Maratila (Jul 3, 2011)

My Border Collie use to do the same thing when he was younger! It drove me insane!
He wouldn't come closer for treats, toys, or anything and he was that, "I like to be with you not near you." type of dog. He loves to train though. 

So, when I was working on fronts, and he didn't get into the proper position, I would grab him and pull him into the correct position. Once he was in it, I gave him is favorite toy and told him that he was a good boy.

Once he started to understand what I wanted (which was not long at all), I stopped praising him when I had to correct him. For, he understood what I wanted, and he needed to know that I was not going to every single time correct him, and he would no matter what get what he wanted. I just said, "Good Dog" after correcting him. 

Now, my border collie LOVES to do recall fronts. He zooms towards me and lands right in front, sitting straightly.

If the dog is not sitting straight, do not reward him or her and then redo the sit.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TorachiKatashi said:


> I've been working on lots of little stuff with Bear, and I'm having a bit of an issue. We've been practicing him coming to me from across the room and sitting in front of me, however, I can't quite figure out how to get him to sit properly. When he approaches, his feet are right in front of mine, but when he sits, he moves his front legs back as opposed to tucking his bum under him, making him sit too far away. Any tips on teaching him to scoot his bum under him to sit and keep his front legs in place?


Did you teach sit with a lure? Many people lure in such a way they encourage a rock back sit. I'd target him a little forward.



Maratila said:


> My Border Collie use to do the same thing when he was younger! It drove me insane!
> He wouldn't come closer for treats, toys, or anything and he was that, "I like to be with you not near you." type of dog. He loves to train though.
> 
> So, when I was working on fronts, and he didn't get into the proper position, I would grab him and pull him into the correct position. Once he was in it, I gave him is favorite toy and told him that he was a good boy.
> ...


In obedience, we frequently ask our dogs to do things that would get their clocks cleaned if they did it to another dog (approach me straight on, very quickly, stop inside my space bubble and look in my eyes!) therefore dogs may be pretty conflicted about being "impolite". Especially herding dogs who really read personal space and have a pretty big space bubble themselves. I will say this may have worked for you, but for many dogs, reaching out, grabbing them and pulling them into the position you want is a really good way to teach them exactly how long your arms are.


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