# Puppy killed a rabbit, I'm totally freaked out and not sure what do to



## megs2219

Sorry if this is long, I feel the need to share the story to get it out and help myself to process it. I literally feel sick to my stomach from watching my puppy kill a rabbit right in front of me. My 11-month-old cairn terrier mix puppy Fitz has been chasing rabbits out of our fenced backyard for the last few months. I never thought he'd actually catch one as they go so fast and get out at various points under the fence that Fitz can't go. But today he was out in the backyard and he caught one. It was horrific, the rabbit starts shrieking this awful, loud cry/scream. Fitz has a firm mouthful of the backend of the rabbit shaking it back and forth with blood and rabbit bits going all over. I tried to get Fitz to leave him/come to me but wouldn't you know he completely ignored everything (despite being very good in normal situations). I tried luring him with several of his favorite things but he wasn't interested. I finally got him to let go of the rabbit by whacking him with a broom but then he was just running around it barking and occasionally going back and trying to bite the rabbit again. I finally chased him away from the rabbit and into the screen porch where I closed the door. He was covered in blood all down his front and so proud of himself. I grabbed him with a towel and put him in the shower. It took forever to get the blood out of his fur. I then left him to dry off and he started shaking uncontrollably. I think because he knew I was mad at him. So I took pity on him and wrapped him up in a towel and held him a bit and the shaking stopped. But cannot figure out what to do about the dead rabbit - I am so grossed out by the idea of even looking at it. Unfortunately, I have no boyfriend/husband/friend that is not grossed out by these things to help me dispose of it. But that's kind of a side rant. My real question is should I be worried about my dog at all? I know it's natural for dogs to hunt but the viciousness that he displayed and how much he enjoyed torturing the rabbit freaked me out. Should I be worried about a violent streak? I am afraid to let him loose in the fenced backyard because of something like that happening again. Also, I have read that rabbits can carry diseases and he definitely got a lot of rabbit blood in his mouth - do I need to take him to the vet?


----------



## kcomstoc

Ok first he is a cairn terrier LOL it is what they do THEY HUNT it is what they were BRED for. Anyway, I'm sure it was very traumatic for you but in his eyes, he did a GOOD thing and he killed himself some lunch. I would let him eat it, to be honest, I don't think rabbits carry that many bad things, HE IS NOT VIOLENT. Just because the dog DID WHAT HE WAS BRED to do doesn't make him violent and hungry for human flesh. I personally own a rabbit and although this would break my heart I wouldn't blame the dog, he was just doing what his instincts have taught him to do naturally. I don't know if rabbits carry anything but you can get him checked out if you want to. Dogs have stomachs that can handle a lot so I think he would be ok.


----------



## CptJack

You have a terrier mix. They are prey-drivey dogs, and hunters. Rabbits are prey.

There is no need to be worried. I get that you're upset - I've watched my dogs (also terrier) tear apart mice, moles, voles, chipmunks, squirrels, baby birds and recently a baby rabbit. The cuter and fuzzier, the more upsetting it is for me on an emotional level. That's as natural as the dog killing them. But it's totally, totally not a problem with the dog. It's what they do. It doesn't mean he's going to be aggressive with people or has a temperament issue. If he ATE it, you may want to have him wormed, but otherwise I wouldn't bother.


----------



## packetsmom

Your dog is fine and normal. There is no need to take him to the vet as long as he's up to date on his shots and behaves normally. He was most likely shaking because of the bath. Most of my dogs have had a tendency to shake a bit after a bath until they dry off and warm up.

Dogs are carnivores and predators. Your dog enjoyed killing the rabbit because that is how carnivores get their food. He lacks any moral capability to see why it should in any way be wrong to hunt and kill that rabbit and even why it should be fun to do so. To him, it's no different than us enjoying trying a new restaurant. He was not intentionally "torturing" the rabbit. That implies that he made a conscious decision to cause the rabbit unnecessary pain. He was a predator following its instincts to kill prey and, biting and shaking prey is how canines kill their meals. This is a part of life and is a part of sharing life with another predator. Do you think the way our meat is killed is pretty or without blood and gore? Or the way animals are killed to make dog kibble? Nope...both involve bloodshed.

If you're unable or unwilling to clean up the rabbit carcass, you could just let the dog finish his meal and then clean him up after. As far as being afraid to let him outside? Chances are that the rabbits will learn to avoid your backyard. If they don't, he may catch another meal, but it really is not the end of the world. It is the way of the world.


----------



## Aska

Cairn terriers were bred to do this, your puppy has this hunting instict from the Cairn Terrier. You should have read about it before getting the puppy. You might need to see more of this if you don't watch him.
When he sees a pray, he won't listen. 

I am sorry you had to see this.


----------



## BostonBullMama

All dogs have a prey instinct, I wouldn't be worried that this is a sign of a violent streak, he's a terrier... it's what they're meant to do. 
As long as he's up to date on all his shots, I wouldn't be too worried about diseases either unless he begins showing signs of illness. 

As for the rabbit... do you have a shovel? dig a hole that's a good 3 feet deep and bury it. Just use the shovel to "kick" it into the hole and don't dig far from where the rabbit is right now. Once it's in the hole you could even put a layer of gravel over it before covering it with the dirt, just to be sure your dog won't dig it back up.

It sucks, and it's traumatic to witness something like that, but that's dogs for ya. My friends GSD brought home a deer once, imagine how much clean up was involved with that.. lol.


----------



## Leah00

Don't worry. He's just a normal terrier with a good strong prey drive. It doesn't mean anything except be careful with him around small animals. It shouldn't effect his interactions with people (or anything else he doesn't see as prey).

I honestly wouldn't worry too much about him and the blood. One of my old dogs once actually killed and ate half a rabbit before we found out and got it away from her. We called the vet and all he said was to watch her. I was more worried about worms than anything else. She was fine.


----------



## megs2219

I knew they had a high prey-drive - I guess I thought it was more for little things like mice and birds. He's killed two birds, a lizard and a mouse but those didn't freak me out as much. Then again he just killed them (and ate a couple when I couldn't keep him from it) and he didn't torture the poor things. He did get violently ill after eating the lizard, he puked for about 2 hours and couldn't eat anything for 2 days. But he did survive it. This rabbit was almost as big as he is (he's only 9 lbs). I just can't get that horrible shrieking out of my head. I think it was the shrieking that is freaking me out more than anything, that and the fact that i was completely unable to control him or get him to come to me. What if that had been like a baby dog or something? Maybe that's something I should just realize is normal while he's killing something. I do work on training with him continuously but he's been so good at come lately I'm not sure how to train for an extreme situation like that. Anyway, thanks guys for listening to my freaking out - I'm sure with some time I'll settle down. If I hadn't witnessed it I would just be like "that's a dog" but it was just so awful to watch.


----------



## Willowy

He's a terrier. Get used to it . No, you don't have to worry about a "violent streak"---killing rats and rabbits is exactly what Cairn terriers were bred for, so he's just exploring his heritage . So nothing to worry about unless you want to have a pet rabbit. . .which I don't recommend. If it makes you feel better, go outside before he does and stomp around a little to scare the rabbits out of the yard. 

I agree that it is freaky to see and hear it happening . The cat we had when I was a teenager was a great hunter, and he would get baby rabbits. . .hearing the poor things scream is terrible.

The most common thing rabbits carry is tapeworm so you might want to ask the vet for a tapeworm pill. There are other diseases that aren't so common so I don't think it's anything to worry about, but if he does happen to get sick it would be good to mention his rabbit incident to the vet. There are thousands of farm dogs who kill (and eat) rabbits daily and live long lives.

For disposal, do you have a shovel? Dig a hole and toss the rabbit in. Otherwise, get 2 or 3 large garbage bags, turn inside out, grab the rabbit's leg and turn the bag back over him (like using a poop bag). Garbage companies will usually take small dead animals if they're well-bagged (not any different than a chunk of bad meat, really)


----------



## CptJack

As an aside and discussing traumatizing incidents:

Small animals screaming really is awful. It took the dogs ...longer than I would have liked to kill the rabbit they caught, because they were fighting over it. The sound that poor animal made was haunting. 

Still sleep with the dogs and trust them, acknowledge it's my issue, but it really is unpleasant.


----------



## PatriciafromCO

should you be worried????... yes you should be concerned you wacked your puppy hard with a broom in your excitement and then your pup went to shaking violently. I would go have him check out to see if you did any long term harm or damage to him. Not saying that you meant to do him harm.. but it was a very poor choice on how to handle the situation.. That would be my fist immediate thing to do... As far as the dead rabbit get a trash bag and dispose of it. You know now, you dog will go after the rabbits,, so leash him before he goes out into the back yard to clear them out before you let him loose.. and work on strong leave it, drop it, and recalls for him.. Nothing wrong with your dog, no violent streak,, just a dog and even a terrier just being themselves... It's a hard learning experience for you, and I hope your pup is physically ok...


----------



## BostonBullMama

PatriciafromCO said:


> should you be worried????... yes you should be concerned you wacked your puppy hard with a broom in your excitement and then your pup went to shaking violently.





megs2219 said:


> I grabbed him with a towel and put him in the shower. It took forever to get the blood out of his fur. *I then left him to dry off and he started shaking uncontrollably. I think because he knew I was mad at him.* So i took pity on him and wrapped him up in a towel and held him a bit and the shaking stopped.


It sounds to me, more as if the dog was cold after having a bath rather then seizing on the floor violently because of brain damage from being whacked with a broom.


----------



## CptJack

megs2219 said:


> I knew they had a high prey-drive - I guess I thought it was more for little things like mice and birds. He's killed two birds, a lizard and a mouse but those didn't freak me out as much. Then again he just killed them (and ate a couple when I couldn't keep him from it) and he didn't torture the poor things. He did get violently ill after eating the lizard, he puked for about 2 hours and couldn't eat anything for 2 days. But he did survive it. This rabbit was almost as big as he is (he's only 9 lbs). I just can't get that horrible shrieking out of my head. I think it was the shrieking that is freaking me out more than anything, that and the fact that i was completely unable to control him or get him to come to me. What if that had been like a baby dog or something? Maybe that's something I should just realize is normal while he's killing something. I do work on training with him continuously but he's been so good at come lately I'm not sure how to train for an extreme situation like that. Anyway, thanks guys for listening to my freaking out - I'm sure with some time I'll settle down. If I hadn't witnessed it I would just be like "that's a dog" but it was just so awful to watch.



Odds of him being the same with a puppy are not high, though I would be really careful with cats. Otherwise, like I said - I get the reaction. Forget the dog shaking -I- shook for a couple of hours after listening to the bunny my dogs caught and fought over. That's a horrid sound and responding negatively to that's normal. Just don't let it change how you view your dog.


----------



## Aska

CptJack said:


> As an aside and discussing traumatizing incidents:
> 
> Small animals screaming really is awful. It took the dogs ...longer than I would have liked to kill the rabbit they caught, because they were fighting over it. The sound that poor animal made was haunting.
> 
> Still sleep with the dogs and trust them, acknowledge it's my issue, but it really is unpleasant.


My labrador used to kill rabbits and birds, even foxes. I hated it. The animals would cry loud and just...
I decided to take her to... hunting classes? I don't know, but she won a lot of titles and stopped hurting the animals. I never let her hunt, though, sometimes it happened.


----------



## seaboxador

I'd cook the rabbit personally. No need for it to go to waste. Also, using some paragraphs when writing on here makes it much easier for people to read your post.


----------



## CptJack

BostonBullMama said:


> It sounds to me, more as if the dog was cold after having a bath rather then seizing on the floor violently because of brain damage from being whacked with a broom.


Seizures are fairly hard to miss - I say as an epileptic and previous owner of epileptic dogs. It's POSSIBLE that it was a seizure, but it doesn't sound like he was flat out and seizing. Sounds like he was excited/scared and cold.


----------



## CptJack

Aska said:


> My labrador used to kill rabbits and birds, even foxes. I hated it. The animals would cry loud and just...
> I decided to take her to... hunting classes? I don't know, but she won a lot of titles and stopped hurting the animals. I never let her hunt, though, sometimes it happened.


Heh. Frost has earth dog titles. Our fenced in back yard is a patch of woods. I don't have to LET them, I can't STOP them. I can stop them chasing, but once they're on a tree or have an animal cornered there is NOTHING calling them off.


----------



## megs2219

CptJack said:


> Odds of him being the same with a puppy are not high, though I would be really careful with cats. Otherwise, like I said - I get the reaction. Forget the dog shaking -I- shook for a couple of hours after listening to the bunny my dogs caught and fought over. That's a horrid sound and responding negatively to that's normal. Just don't let it change how you view your dog.


Thank you for being nice to me! I am sure I will get over it eventually and I won't view my dog differently though I might be a bit more careful about letting him loose in the backyard. Like others said I maybe should go out there first to shoo anything away that might be in there and watch him with cats. But I probably should have been doing that the whole time.


----------



## kcomstoc

I would still let him eat it...it must have been very hard for him to catch that rabbit...he'll clean up the mess for you. I would not however let him eat the brain or eyes...I've heard animals carry diseases (can't remember what they are called) through the brain and eyes.


----------



## CptJack

megs2219 said:


> Thank you for being nice to me! I am sure I will get over it eventually and I won't view my dog differently though I might be a bit more careful about letting him loose in the backyard. Like others said I maybe should go out there first to shoo anything away that might be in there and watch him with cats. But I probably should have been doing that the whole time.


Go out and make some noise, and it'll help. You might also want to patrol the edges of your fence to make sure he's not working on escape tunnels. I KNEW my dogs were terriers and hunters, but that doesn't stop you from having an emotional reaction. Emotional reactions are okay. Just get a plan together if it happens again - like even leaving him to it, so you don't burn out your recall command. It'll be okay, and so will you.


----------



## megs2219

seaboxador said:


> I'd cook the rabbit personally. No need for it to go to waste. Also, using some paragraphs when writing on here makes it much easier for people to read your post.


Will try to remember the paragraphs next time - I obviously wasn't on top of things/thinking clearly. I don't want the rabbit to go to waste but I'm way too much of a sissy to even think about cooking it - that would require touching it. Yes, I realize our meat comes from animals but I really really don't like to think about that. I doubt I'll be eating any meat for a few days actually.


----------



## Flaming

Congratulations, you have a completely normal dog. That flinging around is how terriers kill, it's not torture in the dogs mind.
Don't worry about any viciousness though I might worry about worms if your puppy ate any parts.


----------



## kcomstoc

CptJack said:


> Go out and make some noise, and it'll help. You might also want to patrol the edges of your fence to make sure he's not working on escape tunnels. I KNEW my dogs were terriers and hunters, but that doesn't stop you from having an emotional reaction. Emotional reactions are okay. Just get a plan together if it happens again - like even leaving him to it, so you don't burn out your recall command. It'll be okay, and so will you.


 I didn't mean for my post to sound insensitive but I was like "you got a cairn terrier......." you know? I'm sure I would've freaked out too especially since I actually OWN a bunny and I love him very much so I'm sorry if I was like "what did you expect would happen?" but I still feel that way but I could've said it nicer like CptJack did  anyway I would let the puppy eat it


----------



## Aska

CptJack said:


> Heh. Frost has earth dog titles. Our fenced in back yard is a patch of woods. I don't have to LET them, I can't STOP them. I can stop them chasing, but once they're on a tree or have an animal cornered there is NOTHING calling them off.


Pearl was easy when I think about it- I could call her back. My girlfriends dog on the other hand... she sees a prey, she's off. Last winter, she killed a fox. While she was at it, she was almost hit by a car. She tries to hunt cats as well, also small dogs... and just all dogs. She likes to hunt Aska. 
Terriers, and miniature schnauzers, are almost impossible to control when it comes to their prey drive 
Aska has a high prey drive as well, she's a great butterfly hunter!


----------



## CptJack

Aska said:


> Pearl was easy when I think about it- I could call her back. My girlfriends dog on the other hand... she sees a prey, she's off. Last winter, she killed a fox. While she was at it, she was almost hit by a car. She tries to hunt cats as well, also small dogs... and just all dogs. She likes to hunt Aska.
> Terriers, and miniature schnauzers, are almost impossible to control when it comes to their prey drive
> Aska has a high prey drive as well, she's a great butterfly hunter!



Yeah. I'm lucky that my terriers are reasonably 'soft' terriers. They're not nearly as high drive as they could be. I've managed to stop them chasing with recall and have them u-turn midair to get back. There's just a limit to which that is effective.


----------



## Hambonez

CptJack said:


> Odds of him being the same with a puppy are not high, though I would be really careful with cats.


Hamilton's only goal in life right now is to chase bunnies. He hasn't caught one yet, but he's come close when a bunny took a wrong turn when trying to run to the fence. I am very confident that if he catches one he will kill it. I am sure he would grab it and shake his head around at full speed and I wouldn't be able to get it away from him until he decides he's done with it. We're all just waiting for that day at this point... He also goes after squirrels and chipmunks, and the occasional bird.

HOWEVER, he doesn't see the cats as prey. He thinks they're his buddies. He chases them, then turns around and waits to be chased back, or runs up to them, play bows, and runs away. Even when he IS chasing them off, he chases five or six steps then goes back to whatever he was doing. So it is possible to have a crazy high prey drive and be friendly with cats... or at least not see them as prey.

ETA: For disposing of it -- there was a dead squirrel in the driveway of my old apartment and my neighbor was wigging out so I went out to help. I just grabbed a shovel, and shoveled it up, tossed it into a black trash bag, and threw it in the trash. You get a few feet distance with a shovel anyway!


----------



## CptJack

Hambonez said:


> Hamilton's only goal in life right now is to chase bunnies. He hasn't caught one yet, but he's come close when a bunny took a wrong turn when trying to run to the fence. I am very confident that if he catches one he will kill it. I am sure he would grab it and shake his head around at full speed and I wouldn't be able to get it away from him until he decides he's done with it. We're all just waiting for that day at this point... He also goes after squirrels and chipmunks, and the occasional bird.
> 
> HOWEVER, he doesn't see the cats as prey. He thinks they're his buddies. He chases them, then turns around and waits to be chased back, or runs up to them, play bows, and runs away. Even when he IS chasing them off, he chases five or six steps then goes back to whatever he was doing. So it is possible to have a crazy high prey drive and be friendly with cats... or at least not see them as prey.
> 
> ETA: For disposing of it -- there was a dead squirrel in the driveway of my old apartment and my neighbor was wigging out so I went out to help. I just grabbed a shovel, and shoveled it up, tossed it into a black trash bag, and threw it in the trash. You get a few feet distance with a shovel anyway!



In all honesty? Jack and Frost are 100% safe with cats. They've never blinked at mine. 

But I'd still advise caution to someone until they know, you know?


----------



## HollowHeaven

He's normal. All dogs have prey drive, just at varying degrees. In terriers, it's very strong. 
Your dog was doing something natural to him. He's not vicious or a killer. He's a dog, and dogs are predators. 

And unfortunately rabbits do make some pretty gut wrenching noises.


----------



## Hambonez

CptJack said:


> In all honesty? Jack and Frost are 100% safe with cats. They've never blinked at mine.
> 
> But I'd still advise caution to someone until they know, you know?


Oh yah, I agree... just don't want anyone to think it's not possible to have a prey drive for small-animals-but-not-cats!


----------



## zhaor

lets see...my dog notices squirrels but doesn't put much of an effort into chasing them. Crows are about the same. He pretty much ignores rabbits now but it's more like he just stopped caring. He'll want to chase foxes but I've never actually let him get close enough so I'm not completely sure what will happen.

He'll try to slaughter cats

Honestly if my dog actually caught a rabbit, I'd be praising him just cause he'd be feeling so proud of himself. I might cringe at the rabbit's death cry. I probably won't let him eat it but I'll give him some raw bones instead.

It'd be like if a 5yr old baked me a Soufflé. Even if they left a huge mess for me to clean up in the kitchen, they'd still be deserving of praise.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

It's natural, just feels icky on the human end. Elsa and Jonas LOVE to slaughter field mice. Once I woke up to a killing field in my very own kitchen. I never felt so bad when one of my work dogs killed a baby turkey in the blink of an eye, but it's just what they do. 

Except Smalls. Found her carrying around a live newborn field mouse once. Just gingerly held it in her mouth.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

megs2219 said:


> Sorry if this is long, I feel the need to share the story to get it out and help process. I literally feel sick to my stomach from watching my puppy kill a rabbit right in front of me. My 11-month old cairn terrier mix puppy Fitz has been chasing rabbits out of our fenced backyard for the last few months. I never thought he'd actually catch one as they go so fast and get out at various points under the fence that Fitz can't go. But today he was out in the backyard and he caught one. It was horrific, the rabbit starts shrieking this awful, loud cry/scream. Fitz has firm mouthful of the backend of the rabbit shaking it back and forth with blood and rabbit bits going all over. I tried to get Fitz to leave him/come to me but wouldn't you know he completely ignored everything (despite being very good in normal situations). I tried luring him with several of his favorite things but he wasn't interested. I finally got him to let go of the rabbit by whacking him with a broom but then he was just running around it barking and occasionally going back and trying to bite the rabbit again. I finally chased him away from the rabbit and into the screen porch where I closed the door. He was covered in blood all down his front and so proud of himself. I grabbed him with a towel and put him in the shower. It took forever to get the blood out of his fur. I then left him to dry off and he started shaking uncontrollably. I think because he knew I was mad at him. So i took pity on him and wrapped him up in a towel and held him a bit and the shaking stopped. But i cannot figure out what to do about the dead rabbit - I am so grossed out by the idea of even looking at it. Unfortunately I have no boyfriend/husband/friend that is not grossed out by these things to help me dispose of it. But that's kind of a side rant. My real question is should I be worried about my dog at all? I know its natural for dogs to hunt but the viciousness that he displayed and how much he enjoyed torturing the rabbit freaked me out. Should I be worried about a violent streak? I am afraid to let him loose in the fenced backyard because of something like that happening again. Also, I have read that rabbits can carry diseases and he definitely got a lot of the rabbits blood in his mouth - do i need to take him to the vet?


I am going to respond without reading any of the other comments..

1) He is a Cairn Terrier.

2) He has been chasing rabbits for some time, what made you think he was not going to catch one? The rabbits are fast BUT the dog is smarter. The rabbit will make a mistake. And the dog will capitalize on it.

3) Terriers kill things. That is just what they do. I would not call it violent. It is just a predator doing what they do.

4) He is young. Young dogs kill very inefficiently. He finally caught what he has been obsessing over. Excitement takes over. He has it but he does not know how to kill efficiently yet. He will get better at it.

5) He probably was upset... Hundreds of years of selective breeding has been telling him to kill the rabbit. But you are upset about it. 

6) The rabbit has nothing to worry about (except possibly tapeworms and that risk is not all that much to worry about) If one of my dogs had caught it, that would have been their dinner. 

7) You are not going to lure him away from a kill.... Nothing you have, no toy, no food is higher value than that rabbit.

8) So you heard the rabbit squeal? Now you know why dogs like squeaky toys....

9) He is not going to stop. He is a Cairn Terrier. They hunt. You have rabbits in your yard, he is going to hunt rabbits every time he goes out there. 

10) Now he knows he can catch them. Today was a milestone. He is going to hunt harder and longer with more determination than ever. 

11) As long as there are rabbits around, he is going to catch more of them. Possibly squirrels, mice, lizards, snakes, etc

12 He is a Cairn Terrier.


----------



## kcomstoc

zhaor said:


> It'd be like if a 5yr old baked me a Soufflé. Even if they left a huge mess for me to clean up in the kitchen, they'd still be deserving of praise.


 If a 5 year old baked me a souffle I would be amazed and a little scared that he/she would burn down the house considering they would be using the oven....and it seems dangerous lol sorry i had ta say it


----------



## zhaor

kcomstoc said:


> If a 5 year old baked me a souffle I would be amazed and a little scared that he/she would burn down the house considering they would be using the oven....and it seems dangerous lol sorry i had ta say it


yup. It would be exactly like that if my dog actually manages to catch a rabbit. 

Well, except for using the oven and burning the house down. More like I just don't want him to hurt himself trying.


----------



## Abbylynn

Leeo was such a great rodent hunter. We had so many that they were ruining the garden, the foundation of the house ... the woods and yard was over run one year. I honestly allowed him to do this. He just enjoyed it so much. He was just doing his job. Of course I would not allow a dog to eat a rodent ... because the rodent could have eaten poison. I would just take his catch and put it in the fire pit. :/

He was always so so proud of himself.


----------



## megs2219

I'll admit I never thought he would actually catch the rabbit. I also didn't think it would be that awful to witness - I had no idea rabbits screamed like that. I'll admit if I knew that I probably would have done things differently. I imagine those thinking they would praise their dog like that haven't experienced that scream - it's pretty hard to listen to. 

He's chased that rabbit before but that rabbit was really fast and my yard is not that big so he was always under the fence before Fitz could get very close. I was more worried about Fitz digging a hole and getting out. My parents dog and other family dogs would chase things like rabbits, foxes, deer, etc but never caught anything. I guess now I know what a hunter I have. There was another rabbit in the yard that witnessed the attack so I'm hoping he went back to his home and told all his buddies to stay the hell out of my yard.


----------



## Emmett

If you're worried about a repeat you could always buy an inexpensive roll of chicken wire and lay it flat on the ground all along the edge of the property. Then you attach it to the bottom of the fence, wire ties work well for chain link and staples will do the trick for wood. For added security against resourceful diggers and Houdinis of the canine or leporine variety you can get garden stakes and secure the chicken wire to the ground. I've done this for established gardens where burying the wire was impractical and rabbits were decimating the crop.

You are correct, a rabbit scream is blood curdling and unforgettable.


----------



## DaisyDC

My parents have a Cairn who is...4?...now. Maybe two years ago, I got a phone call from my mother that started with a wail of "You won't believe what she did!" that made met think the dog had bitten off my father's hand or something. Nope, she'd finally succeeded in catching and killing a rabbit in the back yard! I pointed out that while rabbits looked cute and fluffy to her, to the dog who's been bred for generations to kill vermin, they're vermin, and she did exactly what the breed's supposed to do. I believe their very pragmatic solution to the carcass was a shovel and a trash bag, but neither of my parents are all that squeamish.

My terrier mix has yet to catch a mammal. Plenty of bugs, and she's gotten close to a few squirrels and a few geese and seagulls. No inclination to chase cats though--she's met a few out at the barn where I board my horse, and they very quickly put her in her place when she tried to make friends. I'm sure it's just a matter of time until she catches something.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

megs2219 said:


> I'll admit I never thought he would actually catch the rabbit. I also didn't think it would be that awful to witness - I had no idea rabbits screamed like that. I'll admit if I knew that I probably would have done things differently. I imagine those thinking they would praise their dog like that haven't experienced that scream - it's pretty hard to listen to.
> 
> He's chased that rabbit before but that rabbit was really fast and my yard is not that big so he was always under the fence before Fitz could get very close. I was more worried about Fitz digging a hole and getting out. My parents dog and other family dogs would chase things like rabbits, foxes, deer, etc but never caught anything. I guess now I know what a hunter I have. There was another rabbit in the yard that witnessed the attack so I'm hoping he went back to his home and told all his buddies to stay the hell out of my yard.



I am not being mean (and I was not trying to be too hard on the last post) But yea I have heard it. I have no idea how many times. I was shooting rabbits with a .410 by 6 years old. (They do not make that noise when you shoot them unless you make a bad shot) 

I used to go squirrel hunting after school and Great Grandaddies Feists, especially Missy, would go with me. (Feists are what they used to and sometimes still do call rat terriers) They would often catch a Rabbit. So yea I have heard it... Doesn't bother me.


----------



## aiw

megs2219 said:


> I'll admit I never thought he would actually catch the rabbit. I also didn't think it would be that awful to witness - I had no idea rabbits screamed like that. I'll admit if I knew that I probably would have done things differently. I imagine those thinking they would praise their dog like that haven't experienced that scream - it's pretty hard to listen to.
> 
> He's chased that rabbit before but that rabbit was really fast and my yard is not that big so he was always under the fence before Fitz could get very close. I was more worried about Fitz digging a hole and getting out. My parents dog and other family dogs would chase things like rabbits, foxes, deer, etc but never caught anything. I guess now I know what a hunter I have. There was another rabbit in the yard that witnessed the attack so I'm hoping he went back to his home and told all his buddies to stay the hell out of my yard.


Naturally its upsetting to watch but as everyone has said, its perfectly normal dog behaviour and isn't indicative of problems to come. 

My Pete is a terrier mix and quite a mouser. I have no doubt he would kill a squirrel and likely a rabbit too if given the chance. If it helps, Pete is good with small dogs and hasn't tried to chase cats. Still its a risk I'm aware of and I watch him closely with both.

The mousing I've made my peace with and it can actually be quite useful. We had a mouse problem in the house and instead of using poison (slow and very painful) Pete would catch and shake them, killing them instantly. Its a fact of life for a mouse, they're caught by raccoons, cats, hawks and many other predators. Dogs are just another species on that list of predators, they are carnivores after all. I understand its upsetting, especially if it wasn't quick for the rabbit but its just a reality of nature.


----------



## LoMD13

I thought Lola would kill a mouse for sure if she ever got ahold of one. She kills moths and bugs like there's no tomorrow.

But the one time she cornered a mouse and went in to grab it, the mouse decided to go on the offensive and jumped at her face and she leapt back 5 feet and barked angrily at it. I think she wants redemption because she still checks out that corner every time w go by it.


----------



## megs2219

Emmett said:


> If you're worried about a repeat you could always buy an inexpensive roll of chicken wire and lay it flat on the ground all along the edge of the property. Then you attach it to the bottom of the fence, wire ties work well for chain link and staples will do the trick for wood. For added security against resourceful diggers and Houdinis of the canine or leporine variety you can get garden stakes and secure the chicken wire to the ground. I've done this for established gardens where burying the wire was impractical and rabbits were decimating the crop.
> 
> You are correct, a rabbit scream is blood curdling and unforgettable.


That's good advice and would help both the rabbit problem and the dog might dig a way out and escape issue. Thanks!


----------



## megs2219

Fitz has killed a mouse before and that didn't bother me much, it was thankfully outside but I'd be fine if there was one inside if he killed it since it'd be serving a purpose which would help counter-act the ick factor. 

I don't know, maybe its dumb but that rabbit was cute and it look at me with his big eyes pleading for help - it felt so much worse than other animals that are not so cute ( like a mouse/squirrel/bird to me). 

I'm going to put some wire mesh around the base of my fence as someone suggested and hopefully that'll keep me from having to deal with that issue in the future. I do realize that it's his prey drive and not some violent streak, I was just kind of freaked out over the whole thing and over-reacting. But I've settled down now. Thanks to everyone for helping me through it. I didn't have anybody to hysterically call today so that's why I went here.


----------



## sassafras

Ugh Squash killed a woodchuck right in front of me once. It bolted onto the trail RIGHT in front of the dogs when we were scootering... grabbed it and shook and shook and shook it (they don't call it a death shake for nothing). It didn't scream like a rabbit does, but it was still really, really brutal and very disturbing. He also hunts and eats mice in the yard along the fence line. Flips them up into the air sometimes which I don't care to see, either, but he's just being a dog.

And he's just about the biggest doofus you'll ever meet. So although it's upsetting, it doesn't mean your dog is going to turn into a vicious angry fire-breathing demon.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

megs2219 said:


> Fitz has killed a mouse before and that didn't bother me much, it was thankfully outside but I'd be fine if there was one inside if he killed it since it'd be serving a purpose which would help counter-act the ick factor.
> 
> I don't know, maybe its dumb but that rabbit was cute and it look at me with his big eyes pleading for help - it felt so much worse than other animals that are not so cute ( like a mouse/squirrel/bird to me).
> 
> I'm going to put some wire mesh around the base of my fence as someone suggested and hopefully that'll keep me from having to deal with that issue in the future. I do realize that it's his prey drive and not some violent streak, I was just kind of freaked out over the whole thing and over-reacting. But I've settled down now. Thanks to everyone for helping me through it. I didn't have anybody to hysterically call today so that's why I went here.



It is better and easier to keep the rabbits out than to try to keep the dog from going after them. He is going to be very keen on his rabbit hunts in the future.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

sassafras said:


> Ugh Squash killed a woodchuck right in front of me once. It bolted onto the trail RIGHT in front of the dogs when we were scootering... grabbed it and shook and shook and shook it (they don't call it a death shake for nothing). It didn't scream like a rabbit does, but it was still really, really brutal and very disturbing. He also hunts and eats mice in the yard along the fence line. Flips them up into the air sometimes which I don't care to see, either, but he's just being a dog.
> 
> And he's just about the biggest doofus you'll ever meet. So although it's upsetting, it doesn't mean your dog is going to turn into a vicious angry fire-breathing demon.


I have limited experience with woodchucks... We don't have them down here. The look like they can bite hard.


----------



## kcomstoc

DaisyDC said:


> I pointed out that while rabbits looked cute and fluffy to her, to the dog who's been bred for generations to kill vermin, they're vermin


 I just wanted to say that bunnies aren't vermin...they are Leporidae of the order Lagomorpha...they are considered pests though if you have a garden lol


----------



## sassafras

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have limited experience with woodchucks... We don't have them down here. The look like they can bite hard.


This one was pretty small, probably a pretty young one, or I don't think he would have been able to pick it up and shake it so easily. From time to time we've had them wander under the fence into our backyard and the adults are pretty big and they are no shrinking violets... they will stand their ground making an awful, awful hissing noise and I don't doubt for a second that they would bite. Squash hasn't met one this way yet, and with the new fence I think they're probably too big to get in anymore, but my other dogs have always backed off from them.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

sassafras said:


> This one was pretty small, probably a pretty young one, or I don't think he would have been able to pick it up and shake it so easily. From time to time we've had them wander under the fence into our backyard and the adults are pretty big and they are no shrinking violets... they will stand their ground making an awful, awful hissing noise and I don't doubt for a second that they would bite. Squash hasn't met one this way yet, and with the new fence I think they're probably too big to get in anymore, but my other dogs have always backed off from them.


A guy I know down here has made some trips up north to hunt them with his Patterdales and Pit.He has a BIG one mounted and it sits on his end table... His wife HATES it...

I am nicer to my wife.... I am not too big on mounts. The couple I have are in the dog room. She calls it the Room of death.


----------



## blenderpie

I have two house rabbits, so I know that seeing it must have been hard. That's why the dogs are not allowed anywhere near the rabbits. Linc and Ellie have both taken off after wild rabbits before (Ellie I could call off the chase) and I'm sure that they would kill what they could catch. You just have to remember that he did what dogs do. 

My family's beagle mix killed an entire litter of groundhogs and their mom right in front of my mom, who was trying to call her off and physically pull her away with no success. She didn't speak to her for days. But it's normal.

If you don't want it to happen again, secure your fencing.


----------



## SDRRanger

My old dog hunted muskrats (not sure if everyone has them around, but they look like small beavers with rat-like tails) and those things can fight back. She'd come home with scratches on her face but all but one were killed outright with a shake. My dad had to finish off the one that she only broke its back....so be thankful he actually killed the bunny. This is also the dog that tried to catch a fox, but thank god he was fast enough.


----------



## MrsBoats

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am going to respond without reading any of the other comments..
> 
> 1) He is a Cairn Terrier.
> 
> 2) He has been chasing rabbits for some time, what made you think he was not going to catch one? The rabbits are fast BUT the dog is smarter. The rabbit will make a mistake. And the dog will capitalize on it.
> 
> 3) Terriers kill things. That is just what they do. I would not call it violent. It is just a predator doing what they do.
> 
> 4) He is young. Young dogs kill very inefficiently. He finally caught what he has been obsessing over. Excitement takes over. He has it but he does not know how to kill efficiently yet. He will get better at it.
> 
> 5) He probably was upset... Hundreds of years of selective breeding has been telling him to kill the rabbit. But you are upset about it.
> 
> 6) The rabbit has nothing to worry about (except possibly tapeworms and that risk is not all that much to worry about) If one of my dogs had caught it, that would have been their dinner.
> 
> 7) You are not going to lure him away from a kill.... Nothing you have, no toy, no food is higher value than that rabbit.
> 
> 8) So you heard the rabbit squeal? Now you know why dogs like squeaky toys....
> 
> 9) He is not going to stop. He is a Cairn Terrier. They hunt. You have rabbits in your yard, he is going to hunt rabbits every time he goes out there.
> 
> 10) Now he knows he can catch them. Today was a milestone. He is going to hunt harder and longer with more determination than ever.
> 
> 11) As long as there are rabbits around, he is going to catch more of them. Possibly squirrels, mice, lizards, snakes, etc
> 
> 12 He is a Cairn Terrier.


Johnny nails it with this post. Did you do any research into what makes your dog a Cairn Terrier before you brought him home? Or was he just cute like Toto on the Wizard of Oz??

I would be thrilled if my dogs wiped out all of the rabbits in my backyard because they devastate my gardens.


----------



## brandiw

It is horrible when they kill things - especially cute fuzzy things. But, they are dogs, and they are just being dogs. Heather and Sasha once wiped out a nest of baby bunnies in our yard and Sasha herself has killed numerous rabbits, squirrels, birds, and once a baby groundhog. Heck, our old guy, Noah, even killed a bird he happened upon in the yard. 

Luckily, there is never much noise - Sasha is fast and kills quickly. Sasha doesn't even try to eat what she kills; once it is dead, she is done with it (leaving it for me to clean up).


----------



## Effisia

I would definitely praise Annabel if she caught one (and I've heard the screaming). Would add a nice new protein to her diet. I'm always looking for new proteins and buying rabbits around here is too expensive to let her have them on anything but special occasions. When we were letting her out to pee a few nights ago we started a young deer on the other side of the fence that bolted. Annabel was really startled at first, then gave chase for about four steps, tripped over the edge of the porch, and just flopped down watching the deer get away.

She tends to fall over her giant paws a lot. I don't give her much chance of ever catching anything.


----------



## BubbaMoose

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have limited experience with woodchucks... We don't have them down here. The look like they can bite hard.


They can. When I was a kid, one bit a solid hole through my Golden Retriever mix's cheek/face and wouldn't let go. My Pop had to beat it off with a shovel. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## xoxluvablexox

BubbaMoose said:


> They can. When I was a kid, one bit a solid hole through my Golden Retriever mix's cheek/face and wouldn't let go. My Pop had to beat it off with a shovel.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Omg, that's horrible. That's what bothers me about animals used for baiting. They have these small dogs that I guess were just recently created, I think they're called petterdale terriers(?). Anyways, I went to check out pictures to see what they looked like and I can't even describe to you how torn up some of their faces were from badgers. 

I understand that's what they were bred for. I get that they have a purpose. But, nothing makes the way those dogs looked seem okay to me. Just plain cruel.


----------



## CptJack

xoxluvablexox said:


> Omg, that's horrible. That's what bothers me about animals used for baiting. They have these small dogs that I guess were just recently created, I think they're called petterdale terriers(?). Anyways, I went to check out pictures to see what they looked like and I can't even describe to you how torn up some of their faces were from badgers.
> 
> I understand that's what they were bred for. I get that they have a purpose. But, nothing makes the way those dogs looked seem okay to me. Just plain cruel.


I can not think of a single jobs dogs do that won't tear the heck out of them, to be honest. Some less than others, but raccoons tear the heck out of the dogs (on a regular basis), boar hunting ditto. My rat terriers are scarred up from bunnies and squirrels in places. LGD and fighting off wild animals like coyotes? Herding and the dogs getting kicked or run over? They... take abuse, but it's not cruel. It's *what they're there to do*. Would I take my beloved, soft rat terrier and toss him at a badger? No. But I'd not consider it cruel if someone who had badgers used a dog to hunt them, anymore than I consider someone who lets their catch dog go after a boar or black and tan go in for a **** that hit the ground alive. Or their Pyr fight a coyote.


----------



## mcdavis

We recently got our second cairn terrier pup, and whilst he hasn't yet caught anything I know it will only be a matter of time if the first one was anything to go by. I remember my mother phoning me to tell me about the time Hamish caught his first bird and presented it to her at the back door - his idol, the neighbour's kitten, had taught him to crawl down the garden on his tummy. The number of times we'd have to bang on the window to scare the birds away.
As others have said, look at how they play with their squeaky toys - they are trying to kill them. Also look at the history of a cairn terrier - they were bred to pull otters and badgers out of cairns (piles of stones) and they are extremely strong for their size.


----------



## Laurelin

Mia is all chase and no bite. She's gotten quite a few things cornered and/or caught then has no idea what to do from there. If she can she will play with it like a cat would. Release it to chase again and again.


----------



## sassafras

CptJack said:


> I can not think of a single jobs dogs do that won't tear the heck out of them, to be honest. Some less than others, but raccoons tear the heck out of the dogs (on a regular basis), boar hunting ditto. My rat terriers are scarred up from bunnies and squirrels in places. LGD and fighting off wild animals like coyotes? Herding and the dogs getting kicked or run over? They... take abuse, but it's not cruel. It's *what they're there to do*. Would I take my beloved, soft rat terrier and toss him at a badger? No. But I'd not consider it cruel if someone who had badgers used a dog to hunt them, anymore than I consider someone who lets their catch dog go after a boar or black and tan go in for a **** that hit the ground alive. Or their Pyr fight a coyote.


Heck, have you ever seen a lab or setter at the end of hunting season? They are beat up all to h*ll from charging through whatever is in their path. 

Dogs wouldn't choose to charge through brush or fight badgers or tree raccoons or run off coyotes if they were THAT put off by the battle wounds. You can't exactly MAKE dogs engage with vermin or run around retrieving all day.


----------



## Willowy

sassafras said:


> Heck, have you ever seen a lab or setter at the end of hunting season? They are beat up all to h*ll from charging through whatever is in their path.
> 
> Dogs wouldn't choose to charge through brush or fight badgers or tree raccoons or run off coyotes if they were THAT put off by the battle wounds. You can't exactly MAKE dogs engage with vermin or run around retrieving all day.


You kind of can. They were bred through generations to do that. The ones who weren't game. . .weren't bred from (if I suggest what happened to them, people get mad ). So I think free will kinda goes out the window with that kind of genetic tinkering.

But I'm against killing animals for funsies ("sport hunting") anyway so I'm not going to approve of using dogs to do it either.


----------



## CptJack

Willowy said:


> You kind of can. They were bred through generations to do that. The ones who weren't game. . .weren't bred from (if I suggest what happened to them, people get mad ). So I think free will kinda goes out the window with that kind of genetic tinkering.
> 
> But I'm against killing animals for funsies ("sport hunting") anyway so I'm not going to approve of using dogs to do it either.


Well, if you want to go that route the dogs that weren't interested in hanging out with people weren't bred, so they're not hanging around us by free will, either. /shrugs. 

I don't SPORT hunt, because it's dumb, but you can bet your butt I eat deer, rabbit, squirrel, grouse, duck, turkey, use fur from those that have it and other animals hunt for it, and I certainly don't have issues with invasive species being hunted with the intent to remove them completely. 

Dogs work with people. It's why they exist. Free will? No more or less than you have, after being the product of selective breeding and evolution to be what you are and do what you do. Or a rabbit has to be prey. 

Though on that note, dogs would have MORE hunt, chase, fight and kill drive without selective breeding, not less, ffs. Because the ones that didn't catch and kill their food would be deader than the culling you keep ignorantly and without evidence insisting still happens in working dogs today, as opposed to reproductive culling with s/n. Not that, you know, wild animals and predators don't also practice, all by themselves!, reproductive culling by killing off-spring or limiting breeding rights.


----------



## Kyllobernese

Susie is a Bernese cross and has very little prey drive except for squirrels. One day the little dogs chased what I thought was a squirrel under the barn. Susie was standing there when it came running out and grabbed it. It turned out is was not a squirrel but a marmot. Susie was so proud, I think she though she had finally caught this great big squirrel. She killed it, then took it down into the horse pen and buried it.

She loves the cat, is great with dogs, big and little, and I told her what a great dog she was for catching the "big squirrel" even though I hated to see it was a marmot and not a squirrel. It was the first one I had seen in our immediate area.


----------



## sassafras

Willowy said:


> You kind of can. They were bred through generations to do that. The ones who weren't game. . .weren't bred from (if I suggest what happened to them, people get mad ). So I think free will kinda goes out the window with that kind of genetic tinkering.


Sorry, I don't buy that selecting for a certain trait is the same as forcing a dog to do an activity. Way different to selectively breed dogs with instinct than making an individual dog hunt. Yes, people selectively breed dogs to WANT to hunt, but there are certain activities you can't force a dog to do that he doesn't want to do.

As another example, Maisy and Squash constantly have small scrapes on their neck jowls because they grab each others' in play. I supervise them closely enough that I see that they are both willingly choosing to engage with one another and neither is ever distressed (I interrupt if either is getting too amped up). Is it cruel to allow them access to play with each other because they kinda beat each other up? Are they being forced to play because we are all out in the backyard together, and have we genetically tinkered with dogs enough to "force" them to play with each other?


----------



## Willowy

Getting yourself injured while hunting is not a survival-of-the-fittest trait. That's purely man-made. Wild animals are really very cautious in their choice of prey, because they don't have anybody to sew them up afterward.


----------



## sassafras

Willowy said:


> Getting yourself injured while hunting is not a survival-of-the-fittest trait. That's purely man-made. Wild animals are really very cautious in their choice of prey, because they don't have anybody to sew them up afterward.


Getting yourself injured badly enough to not be able to function is not a survival of the fittest trait. But if you think wild animals live in some kind of pristine state where they never get a scratch from diving through some brush after prey then I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Willowy

I'm not objecting to scratches. I'm objecting to that ^^ kind of thing. Dogs do not _choose_ to maim themselves for the amusement of humans.


----------



## sassafras

Willowy said:


> I'm not objecting to scratches. I'm objecting to that ^^ kind of thing. Dogs do not _choose_ to maim themselves for the amusement of humans.


Well until those pictures were posted, I don't think that's what any of us were talking about.


----------



## Kayota

Okay can you PLEASE put things like that under a spoiler cut or something?


----------



## sassafras

Starving to death isn't a survival of the fittest trait, either.


----------



## xoxluvablexox

Kayota said:


> Okay can you PLEASE put things like that under a spoiler cut or something?


I'm sorry. I honestly didn't want to put up those pictures but that's the only way I knew how to make it clear what I was referring to. 

I just want to make it clear I'm not against dogs being used for hunting our anything t that they were bred to do. A couple scrapes and bruises is to be expected. But that, I just don't agree with. It dates back to the same time period as bull baiting. It was used for sport and gambling. It's illegal in some places but in the back countries they still do it and it's perfectly legal in other places. Badger baiting should def be made illegal everywhere though. It's absolutely horrible that dogs end up looking like that.


----------



## Willowy

sassafras said:


> Well until those pictures were posted, I don't think that's what any of us were talking about.


We were talking about the injuries dogs sustain in pursuit of what they were bred for, and whether breeding for those traits removes their choice to participate in the activities that lead to those injuries. . .right? Those pictures are fairly typical. I could find some worse than that. Coonhounds ripped up by *****, etc. And, yeah, if they hadn't had their proper self-preservation instincts bred out, it's more likely they would have backed down to avoid injury.


----------



## CptJack

> Can't quote for crap mobile. Insert something about badger batiting not being the sort of thing we were talking about.


Not even close. I had no idea that sort of thing existed.

I have seen some dogs soundly kicked, beaten, bitten, and hurt far beyond scratches in various dog jobs, but nothing that compares to that, either.

Also this: 



sassafras said:


> Starving to death isn't a survival of the fittest trait, either.



Yep. You think animals don't fight back and those drives that make our pet dogs want to take on a rabbit or raccoon or herd a bunch of cows don't exist in the wild? Because that's what was being argued. That they don't want to do it, we made them do it with selective breeding. I got news for you. A lot of wild animals get killed following drives that all relate to hunting. 

And every drive a domesticated dog has is a variety of a hunt drive, be it herding, hunting, chasing, catching, or killing. And that's all as natural as can be. 

People ABUSING that drive with things like baderbaiting, apparently, is a whole other ball of wax.


----------



## sassafras

Willowy said:


> We were talking about the injuries dogs sustain in pursuit of what they were bred for, and whether breeding for those traits removes their choice to participate in the activities that lead to those injuries. . .right? Those pictures are fairly typical. I could find some worse than that. Coonhounds ripped up by *****, etc. And, yeah, if they hadn't had their proper self-preservation instincts bred out, it's more likely they would have backed down to avoid injury.


Well I disagree that those injuries are "fairly typical" for dogs hunting vermin as a job (not as a baited sport), so again I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## CptJack

sassafras said:


> Well I disagree that those injuries are "fairly typical" for dogs hunting vermin as a job (not as a baited sport), so again I don't know what to tell you.


And I don't know what to tell you if you think it's only selective breeding that makes animals stay with prey that hurts them, rather than backing down. 

Because it's kind of not. 

That's how they eat. Back down if seriously injured? Sure. Back down because they got kicked in the ribs, bitten or clawed? Nope. If they did that, they'd be dead from starvation. Have you ever, like, even watching a nature documentary?


----------



## xoxluvablexox

sassafras said:


> Well I disagree that those injuries are "fairly typical" for dogs hunting vermin as a job (not as a baited sport), so again I don't know what to tell you.


That's the thing though. The people that do it think of it as hunting badgers. I think regardless if they were actually doing it for sport or because they were having a badger problem on their property the outcome would be similar. I did a lot of reading about it after I saw those pictures because I was so disgusted by it. 

There are people that say it's necessary because badgers can become a problem and I guess an invasive species. I feel that if an animal can cause that much damage to a dog then it's not fair to put your dog in that type of situation. 

I would hope that most people who hunt with their dogs would remove them from the situation if they were getting that injured by the animal they were hunting. I'm sure that's not the norm for most hunters to let their dogs to get that injured while hunting.


----------



## packetsmom

I don't hunt animals "for funsies," but to eat them. I also don't use a dog to hunt with because the things I want to hunt don't apply well to hunting with a dog. I know people who do hunt ducks and grouse with dogs and their dogs do look pretty rough after a hunting season, with small cuts from brush and such. So do the hunters. And...they had a great time out there together, just like any athletes in a sport, nursing their injuries together after and reliving the stories of the memorable moments. (And sometimes eating duck, as well.)

Just this week, I saw a dog doing Schutzhund that came off the sleeve with a bloody mouth. He was so driven to get the sleeve that he cut his tongue in the process, leaving blood on it and a small cut on his tongue. He still wanted to go after the sleeve and I can tell you that he'll still be excited and want to go out and do it again. Heck, I hurt myself mountain biking and get a scrape, but that doesn't make me enjoy it any less or not want to go out again.

To me, really living life means getting out there and risking getting hurt. I love doing the things I do and I love seeing a dog really enjoying activities it was bred to do. I don't agree with needlessly putting a dog in harm's way for entertainment purposes, but if I were the dog, I'd rather risk an injury going after game or fighting off an wolf from my herd than spend a life never knowing what it was like to really feel alive and do what I was meant to do.

I'm sure you can find pictures of examples of the most extreme injuries suffered by dogs to back up your opinions, but that does not make those injuries typical. Heck, you can find almost anything on the internet to back up any opinion.

The dogs I've seen doing what they were bred to do...show a joy that you can almost feel. The ones that are really driven to it will do it regardless of the risk to their lives or the pain involved and they will do it with love. That's why a dog will still search for a trail in awful weather to help find a lost child or a police dog will fearlessly protect its handler as well. Because sometimes, the job is so rewarding and so important that it outweighs selfishness, even to the point of giving up your life to do it.


----------



## sassafras

xoxluvablexox said:


> I feel that if an animal can cause that much damage to a dog then it's not fair to put your dog in that type of situation.


I've seen dogs choke to death on kibble. Other posters here have seen dogs strangled by their own collars. I've seen dogs break legs jumping off of couches. I don't think that just because those things are capable of doing that much damage to a dog that it's not fair to feed a dog kibble or put a collar on it or let it on a couch.

Do I like the pictures you posted? No. And I think it's terrible that those particular people did not remove their dogs from that situation before an injury of that type occurred IF they were able to react in time. I don't think that means that every time a dog goes hunting is abuse or that people should never hunt with dogs. Nor more so than I think dogs should never be used to herd because sometimes some of them are injured by a well-placed kick from a cow.

My dogs are forced to do my recreational activities of choice far more than any hunting dog... I put them in harnesses attached to myself or a scooter and make them run. It's totally unnatural, and they could be injured. But they love it and I love it and we all get fun and exercise together. So that's my bias.


----------



## CptJack

sassafras said:


> I've seen dogs choke to death on kibble. Other posters here have seen dogs strangled by their own collars. I've seen dogs break legs jumping off of couches. I don't think that just because those things are capable of doing that much damage to a dog that it's not fair to feed a dog kibble or put a collar on it or let it on a couch.
> 
> Do I like the pictures you posted? No. And I think it's terrible that those particular people did not remove their dogs from that situation before an injury of that type occurred IF they were able to react in time. I don't think that means that every time a dog goes hunting is abuse or that people should never hunt with dogs. Nor more so than I think dogs should never be used to herd because sometimes some of them are injured by a well-placed kick from a cow.
> 
> My dogs are forced to do my recreational activities of choice far more than any hunting dog... I put them in harnesses attached to myself or a scooter and make them run. It's totally unnatural, and they could be injured. But they love it and I love it and we all get fun and exercise together. So that's my bias.



The other part of this for me is, awful as I find those pictures and think those poor dogs should've been gotten out of there if there was reaction time - 

Is there any other way of getting a badger out of a hole to kill it?


----------



## Laurelin

I know of three stories off the top of my head where dogs have died doing agility. I know two dogs that died running off leash... I could go on. Everything is some form of calculated risk, especially when you're asking for an animal to do anything physically taxing.


----------



## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> I know of three stories off the top of my head where dogs have died doing agility. I know two dogs that died running off leash... I could go on. Everything is some form of calculated risk, especially when you're asking for an animal to do anything physically taxing.


That's the other thing, yep. 

People talk to me a lot about the risks I'm taking when I let the dogs run off leash. The implication is that I'm not aware. 

I am aware. I'm doing it because I feel the benefits outweigh the risks. 

And if one died as a result tomorrow, I'd be sad and keep doing it. Because the risks and benefits are still the same.


----------



## packetsmom

Maybe the difference is that I'd rather live in a world that is wild and free than childproof and legislated and safe, vacuum packed in plastic and wrapped up in bubble wrap. I look at my pets and love them enough to want the same life for them that I'd choose for myself. I'm guessing those who value safety over experiences like these are doing the same, choosing the same life for their pets that they would choose for themselves?


----------



## Hambonez

I just got back in from rabbit hunting with Hamilton. He didn't catch it, but he chased it and then tracked it and chased it some more. He has incredible tracking skills, it impresses me how he can follow a rabbit trail. Came inside wagging his tail and grinning like a fool. I just came in covered in brambles and scratches from following him through the woods untangling his leash from underbrush. I know there are risks... but it just makes him so darned happy, I enable him! I wish he could do Earthdog or something... but I don't have an AKC registered purebred dog.  Not fair!


----------



## Lynnlee22

I have three dogs (lab mix, shih tzu mix, and dachshund mix) and both the dachshund lives to seek and destroy. From the moment he came home, he has killed lizards, frogs, rats, birds, mice, squirrels, and (in the last month) four rabbits. The lab enjoys the kills but prefers not to get her paws dirty. I know it must have been upsetting, but I wouldn't count on being able to do anything to prevent this from happening. If you see him with a rabbit, it might be best not to watch because I guarantee you're not going to like what happens next. 

On one hand, you are fortunate that you saw the incident. Innocently opening your front door and allowing a dog inside carrying a rabbits head is never a pleasant way to end an evening....trust me. 

In regards to your concerns regarding the dog's health, keep a check on his stool for signs of tapeworms, but as long as he's eating and drinking normally, he'll be fine. Try not to worry so much about it. It's a harsh reality, but it's nature. Rabbits are slower studies clearly but eventually they will find another route that doesn't involve your yard.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim

xoxluvablexox said:


> It dates back to the same time period as bull baiting. It was used for sport and gambling.


Actually it wasn't originally just for sport and gambling. Butchers did it because it was believed the meat/flesh was better if the bull was baited first. Not condoning it, but just saying before it was purely sport, there was a purpose or so at the time they thought it was.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

It can be sugarcoated all sorts of ways.... And some of the hunting I have done has been for damage and property control. 

But the fact is I LIKE IT! I LOVE the hunt... The adventure.. And yes I like the end game...

IF I was just hunting for meat, I would never have left Florida. We have an OVER abundance of deer, a long season and a liberal bag limit. If you hunt all the stages and zones in Florida you can hunt deer in Florida from about August through March. And you can kill two deer a day, every day. 

On private property there is NO season or limits on Feral hogs. IF a person does not have access to private land there are opportunities to hunt hogs on assorted government owned lands most of the year. 


That being said... 
In my life, I have killed a moose, a black bear, two barren ground caribou, two pronghorns, a half dozen or so mule deer, each of the four species of wild turkeys and I do not know how many Osceola and Eastern Turkeys (The two species we have in Florida) Plus a few cross breeds where the two species overlap. I have killed I do not know how many whitetailed deer. Over a hundred. Mostly in Florida, but I have taken whitetails in 8 states. 

Between still hunting, hunting with dogs, and live traps, I have NO idea how many feral hogs I have taken . Well into the mid hundreds. I have taken hogs in five states. 
I have taken 26 legal alligators, small game, squirrels, rabbits, quail, pheasant, grouse, chukar, doves, ducks, geese. 

I have taken a good number of coyotes, armadillos, raccoons, etc. 

And yes, I eat, or give to friends and family to eat, and sometimes the needy to eat, everything I kill. 
Or fed it to the dogs.... Well over 50 percent of the meat I eat, I killed. Same goes for my dogs. Probably 70 percent of what they eat is wild game. 



The fact is I LOVE it... No two ways about it. 

I have had the EXCEPTIONAL honor to hunt and work with some VERY FINE dogs. I understand their love for the hunt. 
I have witnessed and felt the excitement... I have sat next to them trembling with anticipation. 

And yes dogs die hunting. Dogs get banged up, hurt, damaged... But that is life. Kids and adults get hurt in sports and doing things as simple as taking a bath, walking to the bus or crossing the street. 

If a dog gets hurt or killed doing what it loves, I do not feel sorry for it. Past the sadness of them being gone, I am happy to have witnessed a beautiful thing.... And a dog doing what it was bred to do, is about as beautiful as it gets. 

If I am going to feel sorry for a dog..... It is a dog that is kept locked away.... Safe, not allowed to experience life. 

I am not knocking anyone for how they feel. But there are other sides to everything.

As for the Cairn in the original post.... 
Had I seen the dog catch the rabbit, the squeals would not have even registered with me..... I would have cheered and been thrilled at honor of getting to see a terrier do what terriers do..


And people forget.... That rabbit was destined to die bloody from the moment of birth. Something was going to kill it and eat it. A coyote, a bobcat, a feral cat, a feral hog, a member of the weasel family, a big snake, a hawk, an owl. The rabbit was never going to die of old age... Something was going to kill it and eat it. In this case it was a dog... That is how it goes. As I said, my dog..... They would have been allowed to eat the rabbit and complete the cycle.


----------



## packetsmom

JohnnyBandit said:


> It can be sugarcoated all sorts of ways.... And some of the hunting I have done has been for damage and property control.
> 
> But the fact is I LIKE IT! I LOVE the hunt... The adventure.. And yes I like the end game...
> 
> IF I was just hunting for meat, I would never have left Florida. We have an OVER abundance of deer, a long season and a liberal bag limit. If you hunt all the stages and zones in Florida you can hunt deer in Florida from about August through March. And you can kill two deer a day, every day.
> 
> On private property there is NO season or limits on Feral hogs. IF a person does not have access to private land there are opportunities to hunt hogs on assorted government owned lands most of the year.
> 
> 
> That being said...
> In my life, I have killed a moose, a black bear, two barren ground caribou, two pronghorns, a half dozen or so mule deer, each of the four species of wild turkeys and I do not know how many Osceola and Eastern Turkeys (The two species we have in Florida) Plus a few cross breeds where the two species overlap. I have killed I do not know how many whitetailed deer. Over a hundred. Mostly in Florida, but I have taken whitetails in 8 states.
> 
> Between still hunting, hunting with dogs, and live traps, I have NO idea how many feral hogs I have taken . Well into the mid hundreds. I have taken hogs in five states.
> I have taken 26 legal alligators, small game, squirrels, rabbits, quail, pheasant, grouse, chukar, doves, ducks, geese.
> 
> I have taken a good number of coyotes, armadillos, raccoons, etc.
> 
> And yes, I eat, or give to friends and family to eat, and sometimes the needy to eat, everything I kill.
> Or fed it to the dogs.... Well over 50 percent of the meat I eat, I killed. Same goes for my dogs. Probably 70 percent of what they eat is wild game.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is I LOVE it... No two ways about it.
> 
> I have had the EXCEPTIONAL honor to hunt and work with some VERY FINE dogs. I understand their love for the hunt.
> I have witnessed and felt the excitement... I have sat next to them trembling with anticipation.
> 
> And yes dogs die hunting. Dogs get banged up, hurt, damaged... But that is life. Kids and adults get hurt in sports and doing things as simple as taking a bath, walking to the bus or crossing the street.
> 
> If a dog gets hurt or killed doing what it loves, I do not feel sorry for it. Past the sadness of them being gone, I am happy to have witnessed a beautiful thing.... And a dog doing what it was bred to do, is about as beautiful as it gets.
> 
> If I am going to feel sorry for a dog..... It is a dog that is kept locked away.... Safe, not allowed to experience life.
> 
> I am not knocking anyone for how they feel. But there are other sides to everything.
> 
> As for the Cairn in the original post....
> Had I seen the dog catch the rabbit, the squeals would not have even registered with me..... I would have cheered and been thrilled at honor of getting to see a terrier do what terriers do..
> 
> 
> And people forget.... That rabbit was destined to die bloody from the moment of birth. Something was going to kill it and eat it. A coyote, a bobcat, a feral cat, a feral hog, a member of the weasel family, a big snake, a hawk, an owl. The rabbit was never going to die of old age... Something was going to kill it and eat it. In this case it was a dog... That is how it goes. As I said, my dog..... They would have been allowed to eat the rabbit and complete the cycle.



So much this.


----------



## Jacksons Mom

Jackson has insane prey drive when it comes to bunnies. He's been hunting/stalking one for days over at my dads house. It's living under our pool shed, and the other day he literally spent 3 hours standing around STARING at the pool deck, and he would change positions every so often. He and my dads JRT mix would each take a side and cover each other, it was hilarious. They finally got it to come out and I watched the poor rabbit run like 10 laps around the yard- Jackson was RIGHT on its tail, and he was shrieking with excitement, he almost got it but it got out of the fence. In one way I was really sad, because I feel bad for the bunny, lol, but I was also laughing, it's kind of cool to see the dogs doing what they were bred to do. Though I'd prefer him NOT to be eating a bunny or anything, so I'm kind of glad he did not catch it. But damn he came close.


----------



## megs2219

Jacksons Mom said:


> Jackson has insane prey drive when it comes to bunnies. He's been hunting/stalking one for days over at my dads house. It's living under our pool shed, and the other day he literally spent 3 hours standing around STARING at the pool deck, and he would change positions every so often. He and my dads JRT mix would each take a side and cover each other, it was hilarious. They finally got it to come out and I watched the poor rabbit run like 10 laps around the yard- Jackson was RIGHT on its tail, and he was shrieking with excitement, he almost got it but it got out of the fence. In one way I was really sad, because I feel bad for the bunny, lol, but I was also laughing, it's kind of cool to see the dogs doing what they were bred to do. Though I'd prefer him NOT to be eating a bunny or anything, so I'm kind of glad he did not catch it. But damn he came close.


 I felt like that for a while, my dog would keep chasing the rabbit and got close a few times. I sort of felt bad for the rabbit and i didn't really want him to catch it but I had no idea it would be that awful to watch if he did. So if you are anything like me I hope for your sake the dogs never catch the rabbit. At least not when you are around to watch. But it can be funny to watch them and how focused they get. 

I may not be able to keep him from catching/killing rabbits in the future though I will try really hard now to keep the bunnies out of the yard. At least I know now if it happens again to get as far away as possible and cover my ears till it's over. 

I have been watching for tapeworms of any sign that he's not normal but he is eating/drinking well and seems perfectly fine so at least there's that.


----------



## megs2219

MrsBoats said:


> Johnny nails it with this post. Did you do any research into what makes your dog a Cairn Terrier before you brought him home? Or was he just cute like Toto on the Wizard of Oz??
> 
> I would be thrilled if my dogs wiped out all of the rabbits in my backyard because they devastate my gardens.


- Actually I did a LOT of research. I also searched for over 6 months at all rescues/shelters within 200 miles of me. But thanks for implying that I just impulsively bought him because he was cute. He was a rescue and while he certainly looks like a cairn terrier he's smaller than an average one so he may very well be mixed with something else. I did know about the prey drive and it was a negative to me but no dog is perfect. I was actually more concerned about the digging aspect but that really hasn't been an issue. He really is perfect for me in all other ways. I thought things like allergies, exercise needs and intelligence to be a bigger factor than the prey drive. 

I also thought that him killing something would be gross but I had no idea him killing something would be so horrific to witness. I'm not sure how one can know that without experiencing it and I'm not even sure other dogs killing rabbits were the same as that one. I think because it was his first kill and that rabbit was so big compared to him (the rabbit was at least 1/2 his body weight if not 3/4) he wasn't very good at it. So it went on for a LONG time with that horrible shrieking and Fitz got so bloody. 

I was talking to another friend who's dog (also a terrier mix rescue) also killed a rabbit and when he killed the rabbit he just snapped the neck and there was little/no blood and only like 1 scream from the rabbit. That would have been very different and I probably wouldn't have been upset at all, just possibly a little grossed out by the dead rabbit.


----------



## sassafras

Yea the first time you see something like that it can be pretty awful even if intellectually you knew it was a possibility. 



megs2219 said:


> I was talking to another friend who's dog (also a terrier mix rescue) also killed a rabbit and when he killed the rabbit he just snapped the neck and there was little/no blood and only like 1 scream from the rabbit. That would have been very different and I probably wouldn't have been upset at all, just possibly a little grossed out by the dead rabbit.


It could be that your friend's dog is simply a more experienced hunter. I used to have a greyhound who could grab a squirrel, give it one quick flick, and spit it out dead practically before your eyes could really even tell your brain what had just happened. She was ALL business about it, too, no playfulness about it at all. The time Squash killed the woodchuck it was quite a spectacle, but it was the first time he had ever done anything like that, too.


----------



## megs2219

sassafras said:


> Yea the first time you see something like that it can be pretty awful even if intellectually you knew it was a possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> It could be that your friend's dog is simply a more experienced hunter. I used to have a greyhound who could grab a squirrel, give it one quick flick, and spit it out dead practically before your eyes could really even tell your brain what had just happened. She was ALL business about it, too, no playfulness about it at all. The time Squash killed the woodchuck it was quite a spectacle, but it was the first time he had ever done anything like that, too.


Exactly! I knew he theoretically might catch/kill a rabbit someday but didn't think it would be that bad. He had killed a bird, lizard and mouse before and they weren't that bad. THough the lizard was pretty gross because he ended up puking the half-digest lizard up for about 2 hours. Still nothing compared to watching that kill of the rabbit. 

I'll bet my friend's dog is more experienced, she got him when he was about 1 year so who knows what kind of life he lead before that and he's was at least 2 when he killed the rabbit, my dog is only 11 months and I was lucky enough to get him as a pretty young puppy (for a rescue, he was about 3 months). Also my friends dog weighs about 17lbs to my dog's 9-10lbs. Not sure how big the rabbits were relative to each other. Anyway, I don't know if I want him to get better at it or not but I suppose he will regardless of how i feel about it.


----------



## Jenny1433

This has also happened to me, where my dog has killed a rabbit. Earlier today me and my family went on a walk through our neighborhood(which we typically do everyday), and we stopped at this park and my dog would go chase rabbits. She is a Labrador/Eskimo mix and she’s really gentle, so if she ever did catch a rabbit I didn’t think she would kill it. Anyways she finds a rabbit, and she chases it, but somehow she catches up with it, which has never happened before, but she doesn’t do anything. By that time the rabbit is just hiding beneath a pine tree, like paralyzed, and my dog is just sniffing it. I think the rabbit was either old or sick because most rabbits can outrun my dog especially in a place with a bunch of trees, and it didn’t even run away when my dog was sniffing it. So at that time I was really confused and surprised, like why wasn’t the rabbit running away? But I figured it was just scared so I took a picture and got my dog back to walk the rest of the loop. I was confident that the rabbit would run away as soon as my dog leaves, so I continued the rest of the walk. About 20 minutes later we arrive back at the park, and my dog is off chasing another rabbit, when I realize the rabbit from earlier is lying on the snow. What?! I tried touching it a few times but it was truly dead, and I couldn’t believe it. My dog must’ve done something to it, but I’m just not sure what! By then I’m pretty upset, but I sort of bury the rabbit a bit, and I go back home. I’m still not sure what happened to the rabbit, but I feel a bit guilty so tomorrow I’m bring it to my backyard and burying it


----------



## RonE

This thread is seven years old. Please consider starting a new one.


----------

