# What do you think of Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperer



## scottt140 (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm curious to see what everybody thinks of Cesar Millan.

In my opinion I think his techniques work great for him but are kind of unique to him. Plus, his formulaic approach to dogs kind of takes the fun out of having a dog. But, maybe I'm way off base here. So what do you think? Have you found his show or his books, ect helpful with your own dogs?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There are many many many threads about this already . I think the topic has been done to death and probably very few people want to hash it out again. If you do a keyword search I'm sure you'll find many hours of entertaining reading .

I think most people who actually understand dogs don't approve of what he does.


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## scottt140 (Jan 28, 2014)

Oh I'm sorry I need even search before hand like i should have. My bad. And I thought I had such an original topic...


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

I'll give you the TLDR: There's a reason NatGeo puts a 'Do Not Attempt' warning before his show!!!

Now if you are a dramahound like me I'm sure that as Willowy suggested you will find plenty of reading with a simple search. If I were a mod on this forum though I'd throw a sticky up on the consensus on CM among animal behavior circles and lock the thread. People get very distraught about his techniques here (on pretty much any dog forum, really) and for good reason!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Here you go. I'm sure my opinion's in there a few dozen times.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

The more I look into it, he is like the PUA of dogs.

Suave and slimy, seems like a psychological wunderkind at first. Then you peel back the layers, look at his methods and realize that they are a horrid, crappy premise ot found a relationship on.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Read: training forum, "aggression in the park" thread, post #49, paragraph 1.

should be the sticky LOL


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## LaneyKate (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm new to the forum and therefore late to the party. I'll have to pour a glass of wine and "enjoy" the reading.

For the record, I wouldn't let him near my dogs for a million dollars. 

I took Buddy to a trainer a few years ago who suggested I alpha roll him, as well as some other things that I'm not happy about. The trainer told me that my dog was terribly dominant and that the only way he would ever behave was to dominate him (sound familiar?). He placed his hands on my dog and alpha rolled him, then said "See, he respects me now". Buddy was terrified of him and only "obeyed" out of fear. The last thing I wanted was a dog who "obeyed" out of fear (or a trainer who laid hands on my dog) so we ditched that trainer. I can't imagine what happened to the other dogs in the class.

The one CM-esque thing I do use is a correction sound. I use it because Buddy was a rescue and didn't respond to "no" (I bet he heard it all the time and blocked it out). I didn't want to use his name as a reprimand and so my "ehh" sound seems to work. Buddy knows what it means. Now, after five years, he does respond to "no" because I use it so rarely. He knows it means something serious is going down.

On another note, I did just read "Animals Make Us Human" by Temple Grandin and I like where she stands. But then again, I just like Temple Grandin.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

For anyone who hasn't read it, I highly recommend "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. Great book about how dogs think and learn. It taught me a ton.


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## Swandog (Jun 28, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> For anyone who hasn't read it, I highly recommend "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. Great book about how dogs think and learn. It taught me a ton.


She is my favorite author on dogs and I learned a lot too.

On to Ceasar! His TV show was ALL about "bad dog's gone wild" that he worked on with some dubious methods. People absolutely hate him here because of that show. BUT, if you read his book Ceasar's Rules or How To Raise The Perfect Dog; Through Puppyhood and Beyong you'll find his method is different from the TV show. In these books he teaches how NOT to end up with a dog like you'd see on the TV show. There is nothing offensive in these books. Dr. Dunbar even has a chapter on hands off training.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Swandog said:


> BUT, if you read his book Ceasar's Rules or How To Raise The Perfect Dog; Through Puppyhood and Beyong you'll find his method is different from the TV show. In these books he teaches how NOT to end up with a dog like you'd see on the TV show. There is nothing offensive in these books. Dr. Dunbar even has a chapter on hands off training.


From the Amazon reviews, some say that the book is 95% him yammering about how awesome he is, and barely 5% actual training tips . And those tips are so general that you could get them from the pamphlets at the vet's office. I'd have to read it myself to really develop an opinion, but I kinda believe those reviews. . .


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

All I'll say about him, and his books. Don't bother reading or watching unless you intend (or preferably, have already) read and watch some of the other trainers out there and other methods. Patricia McConnell, Turad Ruggas, Mike Ellis, Ian Dunbar, Ian Balabanov, heck even read some Temple Grandin. Check CM out, but don't follow blindly, he may be right, he may be wrong, really it is a personal decision that should be made with some education behind it (especially considering the damage that can be done with some of the methods he suggests, especially when those methods are done haphazardly).


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If you're interested in "dog whisperers" check out Paul Owens.


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## Houla lover (Feb 23, 2014)

Ceasar isnt that bad. The whole "hands off" thing gets annoying. Like people sayin u cant spank your kids n gettin in an uproar if ya do. ( then complaining when the kids hit teen yrs n get in trouble) Hey.. i was spanked plenty w dads belt .. i learned respect. My dad wasnt being abusive, nor is cesar abusive. Just my opinion.


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## Mint (Sep 4, 2013)

Houla lover said:


> Ceasar isnt that bad. The whole "hands off" thing gets annoying. Like people sayin u cant spank your kids n gettin in an uproar if ya do. ( then complaining when the kids hit teen yrs n get in trouble) Hey.. i was spanked plenty w dads belt .. i learned respect. My dad wasnt being abusive, nor is cesar abusive. Just my opinion.


You can raise a respectful kid without getting physical.

Hitting or spanking a dog is just going to make them hand shy and more prone to biting.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Mint said:


> You can raise a respectful kid without getting physical.
> 
> Hitting or spanking a dog is just going to make them hand shy and more prone to biting.


Agree here....when it comes down to it, any dog (or kid for that matter) will respond to positive reinforcement, especially if you take the time to find that valuable reinforcer. With physically based training, some dogs will respond to it, some will respond but end up fearful, lack confidence, be hand shy, potentially bite/redirect. The chances of fall-out are absolutely zero with positively based training (though positive doesn't mean ignoring bad things...it just means working on them positively), with physical training there is a chance of fall out with many dogs. Physical IMO doesn't mean bad, or abusive in all dogs (though physical is not just randomly spanking and hitting), although with some dogs it is, so the CM formula of training ("touches", alpha rolls etc) that he seems to apply to (almost) all dogs he trains, is such a bad generalized way to train that it is just wrong to emulate. My dog could take his style of training, she is a tough girl, but he would get nowhere with her, and if she did bite him (I doubt she would, unless he REALLY pushed) I would just look at him and tell him he deserved it. CM would have lasted 30 seconds with my previous foster....those methods would have made him feel threatened, and I know how that goes with that dog....not pretty. I'll say it again though, CM's messages of being calm and exercising your dog are two that I just won't fault him for and I'm glad that those got publicized by him (I just wish the rest of his stuff hadn't been heard).


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## greenmaria (Oct 9, 2013)

I have read a few of his books and watched some of his shows. Like many, many other books, including parenting books, my philosophy about him is this: take what works for you, leave behind the rest. I think he has some good ideas. I like his pie chart that shows how important exercise is, for example. Also, I like his philosophy on choke chains and e-collars and things like that: he feels that in certain situations and used correctly, they can be good tools, though in the vast majority of cases, they aren't necessary. But there are some things that I just disagree with.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

From my point of view, he has these unusual high-aggression and unusual situations. He has some pretty harsh techniques that sometimes seem to rehabilitate the dog. The problem I see all the time is that Average Joe watches the show and then tries it out on his normal dog and ends up ruining the dog with way too harsh/unnecessary techniques. 

LOVE Patricia Mcconnell and Mike Ellis. Good, common sense "training" which forms a wonderful "partnership" instead of dominance.


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## snb0107 (Feb 23, 2014)

I think there are way better ways to train a dog! Zak George, a trainer on Animal Planet, has an amazing Facebook and youtube page where he posts training videos. He approaches and techniques have always worked for my husband and I! Everything he does is based on positive reinforcement.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Houla lover said:


> Ceasar isnt that bad. The whole "hands off" thing gets annoying. Like people sayin u cant spank your kids n gettin in an uproar if ya do. ( then complaining when the kids hit teen yrs n get in trouble) Hey.. i was spanked plenty w dads belt .. i learned respect. My dad wasnt being abusive, nor is cesar abusive. Just my opinion.


No, that is fear. You cannot respect someone who hurts you. Neither can a dog. Fear can get things done/prevent some things from happening, sure. But it can also cause serious issues. There are far better ways to get your own way rather than hurting people/dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> There are many many many threads about this already . I think the topic has been done to death and probably very few people want to hash it out again. If you do a keyword search I'm sure you'll find many hours of entertaining reading .
> 
> I think most people who actually understand dogs don't approve of what he does.


So what? The mods always frown on people who ignite old threads on topics like this and then if someone wants to start a new topic they still get griped at ... I don't understand what the issu is when someone wants to discuss him, ESP if they BFE a new member.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

snb0107 said:


> I think there are way better ways to train a dog! Zak George, a trainer on Animal Planet, has an amazing Facebook and youtube page where he posts training videos. He approaches and techniques have always worked for my husband and I! Everything he does is based on positive reinforcement.


I love Zak.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

I wouldn't get physical with a dog that isn't respecting my space for the same reason that I wouldn't respond to a little kid's tantrum by lying down on the floor and crying. That is in a nutshell what he does; crawl down to the dog's level and meet them on their (bratty and downright rude) terms. Sure it may work in the short term but you'll wind up with a teenager who is a screwed up twit experimenting with hard drugs before his voice has cracked. 

It's just stupid, and I say that as a person that works a lot of "whispering" in their interaction with dogs. If you watch a confident, well-adjusted and assertive dog they will not get physical unless they are absolutely _forced_ to, ie attacked. They would much rather meet obnoxious behavior by stiffening, holding their ground and remaining assertive than 'dominating' an upstart.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Here is the flip side: some dogs need something more then positive reinforcement to say, stop pulling or "get the point across" so to speak. I don't mean hitting or spanking or stringing a dog up. I mean some dogs need to be "stopped into" or leash popped every once and a while and even flooding has it's uses.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think any dog "needs" a leash pop. Maybe some trainers/owners "need" to leash pop, but I think that with a different trainer/owner/etc. the dog could do just as well without it. I just don't think we should blame the dog for our own choices.

Not sure what "stopping into" means so I can't comment on that .


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I don't think any dog "needs" a leash pop. Maybe some trainers/owners "need" to leash pop, but I think that with a different trainer/owner/etc. the dog could do just as well without it. I just don't think we should blame the dog for our own choices.
> 
> Not sure what "stopping into" means so I can't comment on that .


Stupid auto correct . 

I meant "stepped into" like assertive body blocking, and by "leash pop" I am not talking about yanking a dog off their feet with a choke chain. But I have never been a fan of "be a tree" when dogs hit the teen years because they already know what to do, they just don't want to do it. Cattle dogs and other "hard core" working type dogs are a little different then your golden retriever or the like. Sure positive methods can work, but they have to have an "edge" to them for some dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Cattle dogs are magical, we know.

"Be a tree" never worked with Casper, either. He is stubborn. He would sit and wait while I stood still, sure, but the second we started off again, he'd lunge ahead and pull. Leash pops did nothing; he didn't care. You know what did work? Penalty Yards. Casper will sit and wait patiently, but he haaaaaates going backwards. Every time he'd lunge forward, I'd do a modified Penalty Yards and just walk backwards for several steps. He learned very quickly that if he didn't want to lose ground, he had to walk nicely.

Sometimes you just have to outsmart your dog with a new method.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Cattle dogs are magical, we know.
> 
> "Be a tree" never worked with Casper, either. He is stubborn. He would sit and wait while I stood still, sure, but the second we started off again, he'd lunge ahead and pull. Leash pops did nothing; he didn't care. You know what did work? Penalty Yards. Casper will sit and wait patiently, but he haaaaaates going backwards. Every time he'd lunge forward, I'd do a modified Penalty Yards and just walk backwards for several steps. He learned very quickly that if he didn't want to lose ground, he had to walk nicely.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to outsmart your dog with a new method.


I never said anything about "magical" . I also said "and other working breeds" as well which includes but may not be limited to: JRTs, rotties, GSDs, Black Russian terriers and other like breeds. Does that make them "magical" too?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think if someone were creative and knowledgeable, they would not need to use physical punishment, even a mild leash pop (which, if you were going by how tough a dog is, a mild pop wouldn't make a difference anyway. If you want to be physical with a dog like that, you need to HURT them and you need to be willing to escalate even more, and have the strength to do so, or it won't do anything. Better to use your brain). I think something like penalty yards would be more effective. 

I do not think body blocking is considered physical punishment. That's something used by many positive trainers.

(I have a Rottie and I assure you he does not feel/care about leash pops. If I tried to hurt him he would win. But if I try motivational methods he'll do anything for me)


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Stupid auto correct .
> 
> I meant "stepped into" like assertive body blocking, and by "leash pop" I am not talking about yanking a dog off their feet with a choke chain. But I have never been a fan of "be a tree" when dogs hit the teen years because they already know what to do, they just don't want to do it. Cattle dogs and other "hard core" working type dogs are a little different then your golden retriever or the like. Sure positive methods can work, but they have to have an "edge" to them for some dogs.


I don't mind body blocking but here's the thing with leash-popping: People employ it with reactive dogs when they are reacting! When a dog is in the zone, little short of serious pain will 'get them out'. I'm sure everyone here has seen a reactive dog's willingness to practically hang themself on their collar to get a couple inches closer to that squirrel across the street. And even if you really yank them? Unless it's seriously painful and a lot of the time even then they just scurry right back to the end of the leash with gusto.

I grew up in a family of well-intentioned hardasses when it came to training dogs. Time and experience has come to teach me that the choke-chain did squat in dog training; is was the positive reinforcement and catching a dog _before_ they get 'into the zone' that made all the difference.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I do not care for this man at all, he's not a trainer to me. He hits the dogs, he pulls hard on their leash, he thinks that people have to be pack leaders over their dogs, it can go on and on. My brother uses some of his methods on his girlfriend's dog (not the hitting part) and I outright told my parents that Josh is not to train our dog (technically it's his too, but I really don't see it that way--long story). He's not going to apply any of CM's methods on Luke. Luke will be trained with kindness and positive reinforcement, plain and simple.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

It drives me crazy when he corrects his dogs for correcting other dogs! like that one episode where he had a fearful dog (named "luna" I think), it got snarky with an older female dog and the older female corrected her and "put her down", she wasn't going to hurt her, it was over by the time CM and his assistant (who were right there) got a hold of them and alpha rolled them .

I let mine correct each other and work their problems out (within reason of course), its the only way they learn that there are consequences for being an ass hat LMBO. other wise IMO they only will behave when I am present and it will be ten times worse if I am not. 

if you notice, in CMs "pack" there is a stoic, almost eerie quiet ... almost like an uneasiness about the place ... at least to me.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

And there we go again, people picking on Goldens and Labs  People don't bodyblock Labs (and some Goldens), b/c they like it, they think that you're playing .... and they're much better at it than their owners


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> For anyone who hasn't read it, I highly recommend "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. Great book about how dogs think and learn. It taught me a ton.


IMO she is wrong about as much as he is... And she is right about as much as she is.


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## Swandog (Jun 28, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> I do not care for this man at all, he's not a trainer to me.
> *he thinks that people have to be pack leaders over their dogs*


I've got a book in front of me by Dr. Patrica McConnell titled How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have Your Dog Love You for it!


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't hate him like some people do. I think he really does care about dogs, I just think he's stuck in a very old training method that has been long since proven to NOT work. My SIL is a big Ceasar fan, and has tried training her small dog using ceasar's methods. The dog has only gotten worse, and now she won't even walk her because the dog wants to kill everyone that walks by, dog or person.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> IMO she is wrong about as much as he is... And she is right about as much as she is.


Just curious, are there any books or trainers you do like?


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Cattle dogs are magical, we know.
> 
> "Be a tree" never worked with Casper, either. He is stubborn. He would sit and wait while I stood still, sure, but the second we started off again, he'd lunge ahead and pull. Leash pops did nothing; he didn't care. You know what did work? Penalty Yards. Casper will sit and wait patiently, but he haaaaaates going backwards. Every time he'd lunge forward, I'd do a modified Penalty Yards and just walk backwards for several steps. He learned very quickly that if he didn't want to lose ground, he had to walk nicely.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to outsmart your dog with a new method.


This actually sounds very similar to how we work with Ma'ii on his leash reactivity. Whenever we get close to a dog, and he starts bark and flipping out, we immediately turn around and walk the other way until he calms down, than we tell him to sit, and reward him. Each time, we're able to get a little bit closer, and sometimes, we can pass without incident.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RCloud said:


> Just curious, are there any books or trainers you do like?


Well when I started training, the only book I came across was written by Koehler... I found him a bit harsh but liked and incorporated a few things..

There were no reality shows, no message boards, no internet... The actual thought of having a computer in the house was as foreign as sending a man to mars. 

Of the "famous" trainers there are none I ooh and ah over. I like some of the things McConnell speaks of... I think she is FLAT wrong in others. Same thing with Millan.... I can't watch Stillwell long enough to see her do anything right. I have not watched that Zak guy enough to know.... That cat guy is pretty damn good with cats, but we are talking dogs. 

But there are some trainers I think are GREAT...B.D Cone was a GOD and way ahead of his time. David Cone was great and in old age is still better than most. Ron Cain, Jean Smith, Debra McKnight, Cynthia Humphrey, Kathy Brown, Brandy Pettrey, etc. 

You have probably not heard of these people. But at some point all of them have had an effect on me.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Swandog said:


> I've got a book in front of me by Dr. Patrica McConnell titled How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have Your Dog Love You for it!


Well what I mean is that a "leader" shouldn't hit or alpha roll their dog to listen to them. I believe a dog should listen to their master (or leader), but they should be kind and use positive methods for their dog to listen. Sorry if I confused you.



JohnnyBandit--what don't you like on Victoria Stilwell? I'm just curious b/c I used to watch her shows all the time and I applied her methods in her book and shows to Luke.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

A lot of folks say that she is rude, but I just think she tells it like it is and doesn't "dress it up"


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## DaveS (Feb 26, 2014)

Not a fan of CM so I found this interesting.
www.hondsdomheid.nl/oostenrijk-verbiedt-cesar-millans-trainingsmethoden/

Translation from Babelfish:
Starting from this year are Cesar Millan's training methods prohibited in Austria. The Government stated that his training methods go against the Austrian law on animal protection.
The public is now legally required to call the police if they see that dog owners Cesar Millan's methods in dogs. For those who break the law can be fined between 7,700 to 15,000 Euros.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think it's cool that more places are taking a stand against this kind of treatment


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

DaveS said:


> Not a fan of CM so I found this interesting.
> www.hondsdomheid.nl/oostenrijk-verbiedt-cesar-millans-trainingsmethoden/
> 
> Translation from Babelfish:
> ...


That is bad because not everything he does is bad or wrong...

And basing law off of reality show is stupid.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Saw a lady in full Caesar mode while I was walking Lexy today... she had a reactive maltese going ballistic on the end of her leash, decked out in the shock collar. The lady was spitting "calming signals" and at one point even _smacked_ the dog-- and not a light one either! Was Lexy not pretty terrified by the whole spectacle I would have shown her something that actually works with reactive dogs but man... I just started to hate Millan a whole lot more.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

“Hey, have you heard the one about climate change and dog training?”
So a man walks into a bar and sees a dog sitting at the counter. He turns to the dog and asks, “So what do you think about all the controversy surrounding the best methods and tools for training dogs?”
The dog takes a sip of his beer, briefly licks his butt, and replies, “What controversy?”

This past spring, Adam Frank–an astrophysicist–wrote for NPR about a conversation he’d had on a plane with a fellow passenger about the fact that while the public and political spheres continue to argue endlessly about whether or not climate change is real, the scientific community involved in the daily practice of climate study has been working on its consensus piece on the subject for well over a decade.

In other words, while the _non_scientific community has been busily shouting away, creating controversy, inciting anti-scientific skepticism, and creating an unmatchable din that no rational voice will ever match, Frank and his colleagues have been piling up mountains of evidence confirming exactly what they’ve been saying for years: Significant climate change and human beings’ undeniable role in it are _a given_. It’s assumed knowledge now. And yet the average person might never hear their voices confirming that incredibly important point amidst all the other noise drowning them out.

Similarly, the Adam Franks of the animal behavior community–Bob Bailey, Jean Donaldson, Nicholas Dodman, Patricia McConnell, Sophia Yin, John Bradshaw, Marc Bekoff, Ian Dunbar and countless others–have not only been in agreement on how dogs learn and the most effective and humane methods for training and caring for them for over a decade, but they’ve been presenting, writing, teaching and researching the topic in as many public forums as possible for just as long. And yet still, voices throughout the animal welfare community ranging from average uninformed dog owners to self proclaimed animal “advocates” and “trainers” guided by egos rather than ethics, continue to suggest that there are multiple views to be considered, alternative philosophies to be acknowledged, personal preferences to be respected, and methods to be “balanced.” And it seems that not only is there no amount of scientific evidence to the contrary that might persuade them, but they seem thoroughly intent on attacking anybody who suggests otherwise–even those pesky experts and scientists.

Every single contemporary voice with a legitimate claim to the field of dog behavior and training has researched, demonstrated, stated, written and repeated, unequivocally, that punishment-based training and pain-inflicting tools that support such training beliefs are out of place in the dog and animal training community, and are not only ineffective in comparison to more humane and science-based training methods, but in fact can exacerbate existing behavioral problems, create new ones, and cause physical and psychological damage to the dogs involved.

Continued..
http://unexamineddog.com/2012/07/15...he-one-about-climate-change-and-dog-training/


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## Swandog (Jun 28, 2013)

Sibe said:


> This past spring, Adam Frank–an astrophysicist–wrote for NPR about a conversation he’d had on a plane with a fellow passenger about the fact that while the public and political spheres continue to argue endlessly about whether or not climate change is real, the scientific community involved in the daily practice of climate study has been working on its consensus piece on the subject for well over a decade.
> 
> In other words, while the _non_scientific community has been busily shouting away, creating controversy, inciting anti-scientific skepticism, and creating an unmatchable din that no rational voice will ever match, Frank and his colleagues have been piling up mountains of evidence confirming exactly what they’ve been saying for years: Significant climate change and human beings’ undeniable role in it are _a given_. It’s assumed knowledge now. And yet the average person might never hear their voices confirming that incredibly important point amidst all the other noise drowning them out.


Now for the truth. Not all scientists agree that global warming is man-made. TODAY nearly half (*50%*)of meteorologists and atmospheric science experts don’t believe that human activities are the driving force behind global warming, according to a survey by the American Meteorological Society. 

Furthermore, the survey found that scientists who professed “liberal political views” were much more likely to believe in the theory of man-made global warming than those who without liberal views. This suggests that members of professional scientific organizations have not been immune to influence by politics. A nano second look back in history to the 1970's reveals that around 50% of the meteorologists and atmospheric science experts thought global cooling was going to advance the glacier and flood the major seaboard cities. This is and was considered hard science.

Enter the soft science of psychology and animal/human behaviorists and you are bound to have disagreement too. Not as politically charged as climate change causes but disagreement non the less. I'm not disagreeing with you on punishment
based training and pain-inflicting tools but CM is getting a bad rap here. He does not teach either of those when raising a puppy. People see his TV show and assume he trains all dogs with punishment; not true.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

His main problem, IMO, is that he has a TV show. 

When you say "dog trainer" to the average Joe, I would almost guarantee that Cesar is who would come to their mind. The fact that he's so popular and wide-spread makes him the go-to source for far too many people, again IMO, for dog training advice.

Even if you want to argue that punishment/dominance based training is appropriate in certain situations, I don't think anyone would agree that it is appropriate for ALL DOGS in ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. Unfortunately, that is the ultimate message that is getting across to Joe Blow public; use Cesar's methods on your dog and your dog will behave better.

Also; I dislike the misinformation that floats around about his credentials. Even the description of his show on Netflix says he is a behaviourist.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> Saw a lady in full Caesar mode while I was walking Lexy today... she had a reactive maltese going ballistic on the end of her leash, decked out in the shock collar. The lady was spitting "calming signals" and at one point even _smacked_ the dog-- and not a light one either! Was Lexy not pretty terrified by the whole spectacle I would have shown her something that actually works with reactive dogs but man... I just started to hate Millan a whole lot more.


Oh boy, here is what she's teaching her Maltese. Maltese sees scary dog, gets zapped and hit- so then he must defend himself from all dogs he sees. She's making the problem WORSE. How about desensitizing? Every time he sees another dog a treat appears in front of his nose. A treat so decadent and delicious that the other dog doesn't mean so much anymore. 

Oh boy. Poor dog.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Swandog said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you on punishment based training and pain-inflicting tools but CM is getting a bad rap here. He does not teach either of those when raising a puppy.


 Be that as it may, I'm sure those are his go-to methods as soon as said puppy reaches adolescence and onward.



> People see his TV show and assume he trains all dogs with punishment


 ... which imo, is the problem in a nutshell. Faithful followers en masse are influenced by a *credible expert* using punishment, then they try to emulate him. They're convinced it works fine without repercussion or failure, and THAT'S what's not true.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Mint said:


> You can raise a respectful kid without getting physical.
> 
> Hitting or spanking a dog is just going to make them hand shy and more prone to biting.


ive never seen CM hit a dog.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> Be that as it may, I'm sure those are his go-to methods as soon as said puppy reaches adolescence and onward.
> 
> ... which imo, is the problem in a nutshell. Faithful followers en masse are influenced by a *credible expert* using punishment, then they try to emulate him. They're convinced it works fine without repercussion or failure, and THAT'S what's not true.


he uses assertiveness, not punishment IMO


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> Saw a lady in full Caesar mode while I was walking Lexy today... she had a reactive maltese going ballistic on the end of her leash, decked out in the shock collar. The lady was spitting "calming signals" and at one point even _smacked_ the dog-- and not a light one either! Was Lexy not pretty terrified by the whole spectacle I would have shown her something that actually works with reactive dogs but man... I just started to hate Millan a whole lot more.


Ive never seen a show where CM used a shock collar or smack a dog...which episode what that?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Ive never seen a show where CM used a shock collar or smack a dog...which episode what that?


I seem to recall at least one where there was a dog that was highly food aggressive and was a supposed "working dog" doing dock diving. I know the e collar has been used on other episodes. He doesn't actually describe responsible use either, he just straps it on and goes to it. He quite often uses that foot kick trying to get dogs to heel, never mind the times he wrestles dogs down into "submission". 

One problem with the TV show is that it is supposedly "difficult" cases, and this is how he treats those difficult cases...I don't agree with the bulk of those methods, but the question is, is this how he would train a puppy? I really doubt it, yet all kinds of people are wandering around going TSSSST and pinning puppies since he did it on his show and they think that is how you get results in the space of half an hour GRRRR.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Sibe said:


> “Hey, have you heard the one about climate change and dog training?”
> So a man walks into a bar and sees a dog sitting at the counter. He turns to the dog and asks, “So what do you think about all the controversy surrounding the best methods and tools for training dogs?”
> The dog takes a sip of his beer, briefly licks his butt, and replies, “What controversy?”
> 
> ...


What makes someone an expert on how animals think? Researching what some other "expert" wrote? Going to a school and being taught by a human who learned from books written by other so called experts? And it just goes on and on. The truth of the matter is that science/scientists cannot tell you what your dog is thinking. We can only guess and draw conclusions about how dogs think and feel by studying how they live and interact with each other before human intervention. You seem to forget where your dogs originated from. You can take a dog out of the wild but you cannot take the wild out of a dog, and what i mean by that is that no matter how much humans have domesticated dogs, they are STILL dogs and we have and cannot change the way that they think. Cesar has studied dogs and interacted with dogs and he applies that knowledge to his training, he communicates with dogs in a way that is very similar to the way that they communicate with one another. Im sorry to break this to you but the "dog world" is not as pretty and harmonious as humans would like for it to be. I DO NOT condone abuse in any way, however in the dog world there HAS to be a leader who sets rules and boundaries, otherwise there would be no structure. You have more than one dog so you know that one is more dominant than the other. You should also remember that your beloved pets are first animals, then dogs, and lastly name.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Ive never seen a show where CM used a shock collar or smack a dog...which episode what that?


 There are a few. .. I can't link to them on my phone but I'm sure someone will post them if he hasn't gotten them removed from Youtube. It is punishment, pure and simple, if you don't like the wording I dunno what to tell ya.

Do you think anything can psychologically damage a dog? What do you think will do that? What do you consider abuse?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> he uses assertiveness, not punishment IMO


Scientifically speaking there are four ways of modifying animal behavior: R+ (positive reinforcement, where you add something good), R- (negative reinforcement, where you take away something bad), P+ (positive punishment, where you add something bad), and P- (negative punishment, where you remove something good).

CM's methods use mostly R-, P+ and sometimes P-.

You can be assertive without using choke chains, kicking them in the sensitive area between the back legs, grabbing them by the scruff and pinning them down.

Punishment = anything where you add something bad, or take away something good (P+, P-) to decrease behavior.

R+ trainers use P- sometimes too, but NEVER P+.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

taquitos said:


> Scientifically speaking there are four ways of modifying animal behavior: R+ (positive reinforcement, where you add something good), R- (negative reinforcement, where you take away something bad), P+ (positive punishment, where you add something bad), and P- (negative punishment, where you remove something good).
> 
> CM's methods use mostly R-, P+ and sometimes P-.
> 
> ...


I have a feeling not everyone participating in this discussion "believes" in science.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I actually have been watching a few episodes here and there lately just to see what all the hoopla is about. I had watched his more 'infamous' cases- like Holly and Shadow, etc. So I wasn't exactly a blank slate because I know I thought those episodes were not very good. 

There's some good stuff in there but there's also some really bad stuff too. The thing that struck me most of all, though wasn't the good or bad but was that it is very CLEARLY an entertainment show vs real dog training. Real dog training takes time and in the episodes I saw I'd say less than half of them actually had a favorable outcome or much progress at all. He shows up once or twice, does some flashy stuff and the dogs get all worked up then leaves. I watched the one with the fighting JRTs recently and basically he spent an hour to say 'Yup dogs are fighting and this one is insecure and starting it'.... but no resolve. The one with the resource guarding chihuahua one... same thing. He got the owners to take the bone away with a broom and then what? The dog is still growling but it's attacking your shoes and the broom vs your hand... I guess that's improvement? Doesn't seem like much to me.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

cookieface said:


> I have a feeling not everyone participating in this discussion "believes" in science.


Well it's better to try to explain this way in case they're not aware, no?

Idk. Maybe things being explained this way might help educate?

I tried lol.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The other thing that struck me almost as much as the lack of training/tv showmanship was how ridiculous the owners tended to be. There were a couple good ones but a lot are just completely clueless. 

And this is totally petty but they labelled this dog a chocolate lab when it was black. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omfamr-dfZU


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

taquitos said:


> Well it's better to try to explain this way in case they're not aware, no?
> 
> Idk. Maybe things being explained this way might help educate?
> 
> I tried lol.


It seems with that particular poster if you bring up science (IE actual proof that something is or isn't effective) they either ignore you or say you can't learn things from books.

I don't get how Ian Dunbar isn't a reasonable place to go to for information but somehow Cesar is.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> The other thing that struck me almost as much as the lack of training/tv showmanship was how ridiculous the owners tended to be. There were a couple good ones but a lot are just completely clueless.
> 
> And this is totally petty but they labelled this dog a chocolate lab when it was black.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omfamr-dfZU


Yeah that's actually how most dog owners (the average companion dog owner, not the ones competing in sports, etc.) are though LOL

I do some easy "training" with people (helping them teach their dog loose leash walking, etc. nothing to do with any serious behavior modification, etc.), and I had someone tell me outright they felt bad for forcing the dog to learn to wait at the door and not bolt out, even though it's outright dangerous for her AND the dog, because she felt like she was impinging on the dog's freedom... And I have had people tell me that their dog is going to be a 4 lb teacup Chi when the dog was already like 2 lbs @ 8 weeks old lol.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> It seems with that particular poster if you bring up science (IE actual proof that something is or isn't effective) they either ignore you or say you can't learn things from books.
> 
> I don't get how Ian Dunbar isn't a reasonable place to go to for information but somehow Cesar is.


Too bad.

I agree. Ian Dunbar is an extremely good source... certainly explains the idea of "punishment" much better than CM.

I used to be one of those Cesar people... until I started fostering dogs and I actually had to deal with real behavioral issues haha  Now it makes me cringe when I see/hear people talking about CM as if he were THE best dog trainer lol


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I also am just watching that episode and he's dragging the dog off the bed by the choke chain?  WTf

Anyways, yeah I get that people are stupid but I guess I wanted to pretend like most weren't that stupid. The one lady with the yorkie attacking the ironing board? The dog is 4 lbs! Why would you let him continue doing that?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> *I also am just watching that episode and he's dragging the dog off the bed by the choke chain?  WTf*
> 
> Anyways, yeah I get that people are stupid but I guess I wanted to pretend like most weren't that stupid. The one lady with the yorkie attacking the ironing board? The dog is 4 lbs! Why would you let him continue doing that?


OMG! I hope the dog didn't have any damage from that, good lord.

His show gets suggested to me on Netflix because I like other animal oriented shows/documentaries. I've been avoiding watching because I really don't want to contribute to him getting more money, but I can't just rate the show low because I can't tell Netflix I'm rating it low because of his methods, rather than the basic content/category of show.

I also really dislike that in the Netflix description they call him a behaviourist. I don't know who to write about that though, haha.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> ive never seen CM hit a dog.


 Are you sure you've been watching?



Alapaha_Lover said:


> I DO NOT condone abuse in any way, however in the dog world there HAS to be a leader who sets rules and boundaries, otherwise there would be no structure.


 CM is not a leader. He is a tyrant who rules with an iron fist, and obtains the so-called 'structure' through unconventional and cruel means.

History is full of them, but let me give you a few modern examples of each for comparison. 
Leader: Nelson Mandella, Mahatma Gandhi, Barrack Obama, Pope Francis
Tyrant: Saddam Hussein, King George III, Kim Jong Il, Adolf Hitler

In the world of dog training and behavior, CM fits into the latter category.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

If you've never seen Cesar kick a dog, enjoy:






I personally would rather see a well timed chain pop correction than a foot to the abdomen. Ideally, you will never have to correct a dog at all. All of these dogs were presented with situations where they were over threshold. Instead of taking a step back and working with the dog, Cesar corrects it in an overly harsh manner. 

Why would you correct a dog when he doesn't even know the correct response to a situation? With R+ training, you never put a dog in a situation where he will make a mistake. He gets to know the correct response (walking on a loose lead, being quiet, ignoring distractions, etc) so well, he no longer will give the undesirable response (lunging, barking, not paying attention, etc).


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> If you've never seen Cesar kick a dog, enjoy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This reminds me of an exercise we did in my gym class in Jr. High.

Basically we had groups of 5-6 people, and the object was to get from one side of the gym to the other, and we were given a couple pieces of equipment to take across with us. Simple, right? Well, there were rules that the gym teacher didn't tell us beforehand. Instead, he would just point at the group and say "You can't do that" if we were doing something that broke the rules, but didn't tell us what the rule we were breaking was.

What the rules were changed from round to round.

Eventually I remember the last round there actually were no rules, you could just walk across. But because of all the 'you can't do that's from previous rounds, everyone was trying all sorts of different things and eventually one group like, barely tiptoed across like "really? We can just go? No tricks? Are you sure? Really?"

I often think back to that exercise when people are talking about how just saying 'no' to a dog doesn't help them learn what to do, or what they're doing wrong.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I also am just watching that episode and he's dragging the dog off the bed by the choke chain?  WTf
> 
> Anyways, yeah I get that people are stupid but I guess I wanted to pretend like most weren't that stupid. The one lady with the yorkie attacking the ironing board? The dog is 4 lbs! Why would you let him continue doing that?


I saw that episode. That was ridiculous. If I recall, I remember the owner being worried about using a choke chain, or a collar or something (she usually used a harness, which most Yorkies honestly should, collapsed trachea IS a real problem in the breed) and made her feel like a fool for it. I was picturing myself in that situation, and it sucks, because you DO get 'intimidated' by someone who is a 'professional' or knows more than you do. I just know Jackson would be ruined if a guy like Cesar came into our house and tried to change my dog. Jackson does bark when people walk in the door. It doesn't bother me, I find it a fairly normal behavior, he will stop after about 10-20 seconds depending on the person walking in the door. If Cesar walked in the door, and pulled his 'tshh' shenanigans and cornered him, he would literally probably shut down, express his anal glands, and never trust anyone that walked in our door again. 

I've honestly seen probably almost all of the DW episodes because I used to watch him every Saturday night before I even had Jackson, and then also after I first got him. Thankfully, I never actually felt a need to USE any of his methods and by the time Jackson was 2, I had discovered other trainers and methods. 

But whenever I catch an episode now, I'm usually cringing. But I used to be under the "curse" too and think he was amazing. Don't ask me how or why. I could kick myself now for some of the things I used to spout. I WILL say, I like his 'exercise, discipline, affection' thing to a point though. I think the average owners just expect a dog to behave naturally which ... is just unfair. So I like that he emphasizes exercise.

The thing is, I don't think he's a hateful person. I DO think he genuinely loves dogs. I just think he's got a big ego, is misinformed, and has made his fortune on these training methods - he can't really 'go back' now and retract everything he's ever said. I will say I remember being pleasantly surprised at a few episodes where he was using treats and he also recommended one of the dogs to an agility center, etc. But then there was the episode with the Lab that bit him and then I just lost total respect for him.

I saw he has a new show now. Cesar 911.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> If you've never seen Cesar kick a dog, enjoy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah me too, it also sometimes seems like those kicks to the abdomen are in purpose to get a rise out of the dog, then punish them for reacting so he can "assert his dominance" silly CM, humans are all ready dominant


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Dog Whisperer is a TV show. Its main goal is to entertain, not to educate. Sadly, too many people can't think critically, and they believe everything they see on TV. 

Like any reality show, Dog Whisperer is heavily edited, and events are manipulated behind the scenes. The participants must sign non-disclosure agreements, so when we hear stories, it's from people who ended up with the dogs _after_ the owners who appeared on the show gave them up. The producers themselves actually released this, though, showing how "helpers" get the dogs riled up before filming. It's all entertainment to them... unhappy, ill-behaved dogs are funny to them.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Dog Whisperer is a TV show. Its main goal is to entertain, not to educate. Sadly, too many people can't think critically, and they believe everything they see on TV.
> 
> Like any reality show, Dog Whisperer is heavily edited, and events are manipulated behind the scenes. The participants must sign non-disclosure agreements, so when we hear stories, it's from people who ended up with the dogs _after_ the owners who appeared on the show gave them up. The producers themselves actually released this, though, showing how "helpers" get the dogs riled up before filming. It's all entertainment to them... unhappy, ill-behaved dogs are funny to them.


Jesus... I can't believe the helper is willing to put his dog into those situations.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Dog Whisperer is a TV show. Its main goal is to entertain, not to educate. Sadly, too many people can't think critically, and they believe everything they see on TV.
> 
> Like any reality show, Dog Whisperer is heavily edited, and events are manipulated behind the scenes. The participants must sign non-disclosure agreements, so when we hear stories, it's from people who ended up with the dogs _after_ the owners who appeared on the show gave them up. The producers themselves actually released this, though, showing how "helpers" get the dogs riled up before filming. It's all entertainment to them... unhappy, ill-behaved dogs are funny to them.


Wait ... Helpers "rile" the dogs up? Forgive me but please explain this a little more?


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

The dogs are intentionally worked up, agitated, and over aroused. Makes better TV to have an out of control dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It also makes Cesar look better if he's coming in and "rehabilitating" this wild, crazy dog. It's all entertainment. Reality TV shows have writers, they're heavily edited, they're only marginally more true than scripted TV shows. It's all pretty fascinating (I've done quite a bit of reading about "frankenediting" and reality TV writers over the years -- for example, this article is neat), but it's bad when people believe everything they see.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Here's a note from the person who fostered Shadow, the husky/hybrid that was hung by CM until it was blue, passed out and peed itself.
http://mycorgi.com/profiles/blogs/a-cesar-milan-story?xg_source=activity
" Actually Shadow was my foster, I adopted him out to that family as they had previously had a Malamute and seemed suitable. We have a policy that we will take back any adopted dog if it does not work out, I had no idea they were having issues with Shadow until i got an email saying he was going to be on the dog whisperer. After watching that episode I was furious, and started asking what the problem was with Shadow, as he had exhibited no issues whatsoever when I fostered him.

The problem was the woman was using Cesars aggressive training techniques which had a really bad effect on Shadow, who ended up biting her when she was trying to discipline him for getting into her vegetable garden. (This was a few weeks after the cesar episode, notice they never mention they failed with him).

I had to fight to get Shadow back from the woman who was going to get rid of him after that. We had a clause in the adoption contract saying they had to return a dog before disposing of it. She did not want to honor that agreement, and was going to send him off to a wolf refuge where he would never get to be loved or interact with humans again, or be PTS.

Once I got him back (I drove up there and took him once she caved in), it took several months of kind loving treatment to get him back to being the sweet dog he always was. After that I decided to keep him as he had bonded to me and Vushki and I think adopting him out again would have traumatized him again.

*I found out that the scene where he bites Cesar they had been working him up for an hour before they got that clip, turns out it is all about the show and not the dog. They deliberately bait the dogs to get them to react. We did contact the producers and I think they persuaded the woman to give Shadow back to the rescue, as she was determined to not give him back to us, she even refused to talk to the lady that runs the malamute rescue.*

I'm glad I saved him again, and I felt really bad about subjecting him to that in the first place, it is hard to tell if a family is going to be good or bad when you are fostering.

Anyway he is a sweet boy and sleeps right next to me every night, in fact he likes to try to push me off the bed by stretching out as far as he can. He has the best recall of any of my dogs, and sticks to me like glue most of the time."


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> There are a few. .. I can't link to them on my phone but I'm sure someone will post them if he hasn't gotten them removed from Youtube. It is punishment, pure and simple, if you don't like the wording I dunno what to tell ya.
> 
> Do you think anything can psychologically damage a dog? What do you think will do that? What do you consider abuse?


I do not consider being calm and assertive abuse. I do not call having a dog submit as a consequence abuse either.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

"Having" a dog submit is different from _making_ a dog submit. I think that's the distinction you're missing. Like I said on the other thread, in dog-dog interactions, submissive positions are voluntary.

(Also, Willowy herself has said that dogs should have calm and assertive owners, so I'm not sure what you're arguing against now.)


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I do not consider being calm and assertive abuse. I do not call having a dog submit as a consequence abuse either.


What would getting a dog to "submit" as a consequence do, exactly? Not trying to come off as snarky or anything. Genuinely curious.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

cookieface said:


> I have a feeling not everyone participating in this discussion "believes" in science.


 It's not that I don't believe in science, I don't believe in some scientist's interpretation. And not everything is a science. Some stuff is just common sense.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I do not consider being calm and assertive abuse. I do not call having a dog submit as a consequence abuse either.


 I don't think anyone thinks being calm and assertive is abuse (unless it's the code version of "assertive"). But hmm, having a dog submit. . .I assume you mean holding the dog on his side? What if the dog is terrified by this (as most dogs are)? Isn't causing that kind of terro at least a little abusive? What if the dog doesn't go down easily---you would have to get violent to finish the job wouldn't you? And what does it accomplish? I have never understood that.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> I don't think anyone thinks being calm and assertive is abuse (unless it's the code version of "assertive"). But hmm, having a dog submit. . .I assume you mean holding the dog on his side? What if the dog is terrified by this (as most dogs are)? Isn't causing that kind of terro at least a little abusive? What if the dog doesn't go down easily---you would have to get violent to finish the job wouldn't you? And what does it accomplish? I have never understood that.


As I've said before, having a dog submit does not always involve a human holding down a dog. Submission is more so a state of mind than an action. I can get my dog to be submit with eye contact and a sound or gesture. If she acknowledges me, responds positively to my command and is in a relaxed state of mind, then she is being submissive.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> If she acknowledges me, responds positively to my command and is in a relaxed state of mind, then she is being submissive.


 Not meaning to reduce this to semantics, but I would simply call that ... obedient.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> Not meaning to reduce this to semantics, but I would simply call that ... obedient.


I guess the two could generally be the same thing. She obeys by submitting to doing what I want her to do


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess if that word floats yer boat. Makes me think of something else altogether . 

So what's that got to do with Cesar? Because he's definitely into a more physical interpretation.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> I guess if that word floats yer boat. Makes me think of something else altogether .
> 
> So what's that got to do with Cesar? Because he's definitely into a more physical interpretation.


I agree with his method of training, totally. Each case Is different and calls for different strategies.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> What makes someone an expert on how animals think? Researching what some other "expert" wrote? Going to a school and being taught by a human who learned from books written by other so called experts? And it just goes on and on. The truth of the matter is that science/scientists cannot tell you what your dog is thinking. We can only guess and draw conclusions about how dogs think and feel by studying how they live and interact with each other before human intervention. You seem to forget where your dogs originated from. You can take a dog out of the wild but you cannot take the wild out of a dog, and what i mean by that is that no matter how much humans have domesticated dogs, they are STILL dogs and we have and cannot change the way that they think. Cesar has studied dogs and interacted with dogs and he applies that knowledge to his training, he communicates with dogs in a way that is very similar to the way that they communicate with one another. Im sorry to break this to you but the "dog world" is not as pretty and harmonious as humans would like for it to be. I DO NOT condone abuse in any way, however in the dog world there HAS to be a leader who sets rules and boundaries, otherwise there would be no structure. You have more than one dog so you know that one is more dominant than the other. You should also remember that your beloved pets are first animals, then dogs, and lastly name.


Positive reinforcement works with ALL animals, including lions, hyenas, goldfish, bears...  Has nothing to do with the dog being "domesticated". It's science based in that the effects of positive reinforcement + negative reinforcement have been studied over and over in many conditions. CM's methods are based off of one man's interactions with dogs only. The unique part about the "science based" methods that are promoted these days is that it doesn't matter what type of animal, it *works*, and it works very quickly.

Here's a cool video of a hyena letting a human draw blood from it's neck. All trained with clicker training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs-tAHqGruY


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I agree with his method of training, totally. Each case Is different and calls for different strategies.


So you are OK with kicking a dog in the stomach or choking them blue or throwing them to the floor? Just verifying what I'm disagreeing with . I do consider those things abuse.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly, I would just like to see Cesar take on some cases in person in real time. How much is just editing clips. You can edit clips to show ANYTHING and ANY progression. It would be so easy to agitate a dog in one scene then voila! He's fixed. (Only because you're not agitating him) 

It was strange to me in some of the episodes I've been watching (slow work week, my group is out of town!) he seemed to approach things very differently. There was one case with a white dog that was fearful and he did/advised exactly what I would, which was to have her approach people and have people not look at her or touch her or loom over her. But then another episode with a GSDx who is very fearful he pulls out of it's hiding place and pretty well floods it then is commenting on how the dog was relaxing. In the white dog case you could see the dog relaxing and becoming more confident. In the GSD case the dog was walking and not biting but the tail was tucked and the dog was glancing around nervously. And yet he's praising it for being calm and submissive. I wondered why he'd approach two very similar issues with spooky dogs so differently? I didn't check date so don't know if the methods have changed over the years?

Another I thought of was a lab obsessed with swimming. Cesar would correct the dog for swimming without being asked. Ok so far nothing horrible but the end result was a lab that would sit by the pool and would look down straight at the ground/water and shake.... and yet it was called being calm submissive? The dog was anxious and wound as heck!

There is some good stuff there. Dogs need boundaries, they need exercise- it was amazing how many people said flat out they didn't do a darn thing with their dogs! But most of that is common sense right? And you're going to get that from ANY trainer. It certainly wasn't enough good there to overcome the bad in my opinion.

I do think it's obvious it's all TV and people should realize it. There is a lot of setting the dog up to fail- let alone if they do agitate the dogs for hours (which I'd believe). And in a lot there's not much progress made at all, just a lot of hand waving and while it may work with Cesar there... does it long term? I can't see it working long term or the owners really being consistent with it.

But man, some of those people really don't need dogs. I will admit, it's entertaining TV.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> So you are OK with kicking a dog in the stomach or choking them blue or throwing them to the floor? Just verifying what I'm disagreeing with . I do consider those things abuse.


Of course I am NOT ok with kicking, choking or slamming a dog. And I have never seen CM do those things. Where are you getting this from??


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

I have seen shows where CM had to use force for the "alpha roll" but not slam a dog to the floor.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You really don't look at the links do you? I'm pretty sure all of those got linked to here somewhere. It's good TV!


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Of course I am NOT ok with kicking, choking or slamming a dog. And I have never seen CM do those things. Where are you getting this from??



op2:


....I'm pretty sure there have been a couple cases mentioned, if not links, that are easily found on YouTube.....


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> You really don't look at the links do you? I'm pretty sure all of those got linked to here somewhere. It's good TV!


Lol, I'll look them up on youtube later


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover admitted in another thread that he doesn't click any of the links posted. I almost feel bad arguing with him at this point, because he's only (somewhat) knowledgeable about one side of the debate. He's essentially bringing a knife to a gun fight.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I still just can't get over how he handled the Holly case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGX1kKeLzVs Around 12 minutes. That's asking for a bite. Repeatedly asking for her to bite him.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

This one is pretty stupid, too:






Let's drag a huge dog on a choke chain up the stairs! That's smart, right? That's gonna make a dog who's afraid of stairs love going up stairs, right? Right?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Alapaha_Lover admitted in another thread that he doesn't click any of the links posted. I almost feel bad arguing with him at this point, because he's only (somewhat) knowledgeable about one side of the debate. He's essentially bringing a knife to a gun fight.


Hey I'm a lady, not a he lol. And I don't click MOST of the links pertaining to this thread because for one I watch CM all the time, and for two I have done some research on "dog psychology" and behavior and i feel like I'm using the best method.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> This one is pretty stupid, too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I don't see a link here


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I have seen shows where CM had to use force for the "alpha roll" but not slam a dog to the floor.


Forcing an alpha roll is kind of cruel... And I know my previous dog would have flipped a carp if someone had tried to force him into any position. 

I posted a fantastic link to Cesar's "foot touches". From the way the dogs react, you know it's a kick to their sensitive parts. They flinch, the tails tuck. He has and does kick, choke, and force dogs into a "submissive position".


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I still just can't get over how he handled the Holly case.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGX1kKeLzVs Around 12 minutes. That's asking for a bite. Repeatedly asking for her to bite him.


Ok, I'll click on this link


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

But it's okay to treat "red-zone" dogs that way, isn't it? I mean, every dog IS different... smh.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I agree with his method of training, totally.


^ This, is what gets to me.
I study / consider a lot of different trainer's methodologies, and I can't say there is one, _not a single one_, that I agree with "totally".


Repeat, from earlier in the thread:


> Faithful followers en masse are influenced by a *credible expert* using punishment, then they try to emulate him. They're convinced it works fine without repercussion or failure, and THAT'S what's not true.


Nearing the point of nausea now ....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Hey I'm a lady, not a he lol. And I don't click MOST of the links pertaining to this thread because for one I watch CM all the time, and for two I have done some research on "dog psychology" and behavior and i feel like I'm using the best method.


How do you know you're using the best method if you don't expose yourself to other opinions?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I still just can't get over how he handled the Holly case.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGX1kKeLzVs Around 12 minutes. That's asking for a bite. Repeatedly asking for her to bite him.


The only thing that I disagree with was when the camera man suggested telling the dog "ok" to eat, and then CM "corrected" the dog and took the food.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> How do you know you're using the best method if you don't expose yourself to other opinions?


When you say expose myself, do you mean "try" the treat training?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think everybody has to try everything (I am certainly not going to beat my dog or choke him or alpha roll him) but you should try to understand as much as possible so you can have an educated opinion on the subject .


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

It's called objectivity. 

FWIW, I avoid putting all of my eggs into one basket with blind faith.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> I don't think everybody has to try everything (I am certainly not going to beat my dog or choke him or alpha roll him) but you should try to understand as much as possible so you can have an educated opinion on the subject .


I am educated on treat training and positive reinforcement and i believe they can be used in certain cases where there is not aggression involved...i use both of those methods in my training, however I still make sure that my dogs know that I will not tolerate aggression or disobedience by asserting that I am more dominant, and i demand respect.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

My opinion (coming in late to the party) is that there are good parts that can be taken from most trainers, and parts that I would leave. Some things work for some animals, and other things don't. I personally prefer clicker training and R+, but the dogs I have worked with have responded well to it so I haven't needed to use anything else. 

In a perfect world everyone would have the time, energy, and want to train their dog in a strictly positive way. There would be no need for extra equipment or other methods. But in the real world, some dogs do not have the owners or the time to spend weeks being trained to do something. I'm not saying that barbaric methods (like some of CM and other trainers ways) are needed, but if the difference between a dog having a home or being PTS, surrendered or abandoned is the occasional leash pop, prong collar, etc. USED IN A CORRECT MANNER then I'm not going to berate them for it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> and i demand respect.


Terrorists make demands.

Respect must be earned. And reciprocated.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I am educated on treat training and positive reinforcement and i believe they can be used in certain cases where there is not aggression involved...i use both of those methods in my training, however I still make sure that my dogs know that I will not tolerate aggression or disobedience by asserting that I am more dominant, and i demand respect.


The funny thing about "respect" and "manners" is...they are behaviors in our eye. Behaviors you get from training.

Aggression, on the other hand is involuntary. So, how exactly do you make sure the dog knows you won't tolerate it, when the dog doesn't control the behavior voluntarily?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I am educated on treat training and positive reinforcement and i believe they can be used in certain cases where there is not aggression involved...i use both of those methods in my training, however I still make sure that my dogs know that I will not tolerate aggression or disobedience by asserting that I am more dominant, and i demand respect.


Some things you have said indicate that you do not understand how treat training works at all. Perhaps you were just being argumentative, idk.

I find that people who "demand" respect rarely get it.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> I don't think everybody has to try everything (I am certainly not going to beat my dog or choke him or alpha roll him) but you should try to understand as much as possible so you can have an educated opinion on the subject .


I think that you should take your own advise..."dominance training" as most are calling it, does not mean abuse your dog. You can be dominant without abusing, and using force when necessary is not abuse. I DO NOT BEAT, CHOKE OR KICK MY DOGS...maybe you should educate yourself more on this type of training and not base your entire argument off a couple episodes of the dog whisperer.  p.s. I still have not seen CM physically abuse a dog, maybe send a mix signal, but not abuse.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Some things you have said indicate that you do not understand how treat training works at all. Perhaps you were just being argumentative, idk.
> 
> I find that people who "demand" respect rarely get it.


Well that's your opinion, and you are entitled to that. As far as "people who demand respect rarely get it" that may be so in the human world but not in dog behavior.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There are MANY trainers who do use beatings and choking and alpha rolls. There's a whole series of books by a trainer who's all about "thrashing" the dog for various infractions. I'm not going to try that, although I will try to understand why he feels the need to do that. Just because you don't doesn't mean others don't.

So how do you think a dog shows "respect"? That's very humanizing, I think. . .


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I think that you should take your own advise..."dominance training" as most are calling it, does not mean abuse your dog. You can be dominant without abusing, and using force when necessary is not abuse. I DO NOT BEAT, CHOKE OR KICK MY DOGS...maybe you should educate yourself more on this type of training and not base your entire argument off a couple episodes of the dog whisperer.  p.s. I still have not seen CM physically abuse a dog, maybe send a mix signal, but not abuse.


Did you watch my link?

I can post a few more for you. 

I have used corrections in the training of my previous dog because he was getting to the point of being dangerous around other dogs. I used a prong and control collar not because positive training failed me but because I failed at positive training. I did not have the time or the resources (behaviorist and $$$) to use r+ with his reactivity training. That made me sad but it was that or have him attack and maul other dogs. That being said, I did not and would not in the future alpha roll or "demand respect" from a dog. Thats not a proven technique. Leash pops, prongs, and control collars are actually proven techniques. They have science behind them. Science shows these are not nice but provide control over the dog. Science shows that r+ training is nice and also provides control. I choose r+ first and use my other "tools" later.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I am educated on treat training and positive reinforcement and i believe they can be used in certain cases where there is not aggression involved...i use both of those methods in my training, however I still make sure that my dogs know that I will not tolerate aggression or disobedience by asserting that I am more dominant, and i demand respect.


Curious... What exactly do you do to "demand respect" and show your "dominance?" How does your dog show you respect? You say the people debating with you here don't understand your techniques so maybe you could explain it? Maybe you could give a couple examples and explain why what you do works.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

If I was to ever attempt to alpha roll my GSD, who has extreme DA, I would lose my face. He goes in for a kill and I would never put my body in front of him when he's in that state of mind. We avoid dogs like the plague but surprises happen and I couldn't imagine physically making him submit lol. A prong and a muzzle + desensitizing at a distance work just fine for me..


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I am educated on treat training and positive reinforcement and i believe they can be used in certain cases where there is not aggression involved...i use both of those methods in my training, however I still make sure that my dogs know that I will not tolerate aggression or disobedience by asserting that I am more dominant, and i demand respect.


From all I have seen lately, you do a questionable job of demanding any respect. 

First it's _'I never lay a hand on my dog'_ then it's _'There's nothing wrong with pinning a puppy down'_, then it's _'Y'all humanize your dogs too much '_ and then _'Oh, nope, when they disobey me it's obviously because they are flipping me the doggy bird and making some sort of personal slight against me when they choose not to roll over'_. 

The arguments and statements that you have put out in various threads are very inconsistent. And we all know that consistency is a large part of being taken seriously. Of all these statements, which is it that you are actually advocating here?


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Sarah~ said:


> If I was to ever attempt to alpha roll my GSD, who has extreme DA, I would lose my face. He goes in for a kill and I would never put my body in front of him when he's in that state of mind. We avoid dogs like the plague but surprises happen and I couldn't imagine physically making him submit lol. A prong and a muzzle + desensitizing at a distance work just fine for me..


Yes, this is why Cesar muzzles these sorts of dogs before he dominates and/or alpha-rolls them, as if they will be any better when the muzzle is taken off.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

kelly528 said:


> Yes, this is why Cesar muzzles these sorts of dogs before he dominates and/or alpha-rolls them, as if they will be any better when the muzzle is taken off.


Ah, I see. Seems very dangerous to me, the dog I'm talking about has had several issues with aggression and he responds really well to more positive methods like treats. That's why I think it's silly to say aggressive dogs can't be rehabilitated with treats they can and are on a pretty regular basis.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> If I was to ever attempt to alpha roll my GSD, who has extreme DA, I would lose my face. He goes in for a kill and I would never put my body in front of him when he's in that state of mind. We avoid dogs like the plague but surprises happen and I couldn't imagine physically making him submit lol. A prong and a muzzle + desensitizing at a distance work just fine for me..


Haha yeah if my old leash reactive foster got "alpha rolled" or even had someone kick her or jab her, she would instantly redirect and cause damage.

Yeah... I wouldn't go there.

The only thing that worked for her, after a CM following trainer RUINED her, was positive reinforcement training (counter conditioning with lots of treats and clicker training). She's still trying to work through all the issues because that guy made her WORSE.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I still have not seen CM physically abuse a dog, maybe send a mix signal, but not abuse.


I would say setting up dogs for failure then 'correcting them' the way he does is clsoe to it, if not outright abuse. It was unnecessary at best and confusing for the dog. 



Alapaha_Lover said:


> The only thing that I disagree with was when the camera man suggested telling the dog "ok" to eat, and then CM "corrected" the dog and took the food.


That was the first issue. I've watched it a few times. 

I will say one thing first- this is almost exactly how I got bitten twice. I was raised in a house where you were taught to dominate the dogs. And I tried to when I was younger. I found that aggressing on a dog that is aggressing often makes them escalate into biting. That's what happened in the clip. 

You can watch again and Cesar just keeps pressing the dog. He also reads her very poorly. He states at one point she is calming down but the shifting of her eyes and her worried brow says otherwise. She was still wound tight when he went to pet her. There was no need to escalate the way it did. She gave a lot of warnings and tried to avoid but he didn't back off to let her cool down. I almost chuckle when he says 'I didn't see that coming'. I could see it a mile away.

What good does it do to keep aggressing on the dog until it aggresses back THEN trying to dominate the dog? 

Let me be perfectly clear, I am not and do not consider myself a purely positive trainer. I don't like labels first of all and I have used positive punishment and often use negative punishment. I do think people have taken the purely positive thing a bit too far in some instances. But I think the basis of a dog-owner relationship should be a good working relationship. I don't see how you can do that if your basis is a lot of intimidation.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Ah, I see. Seems very dangerous to me, the dog I'm talking about has had several issues with aggression and he responds really well to more positive methods like treats. That's why I think it's silly to say aggressive dogs can't be rehabilitated with treats they can and are on a pretty regular basis.


Lol. From what you've written of Eko, he sounds like an awesome dog but you couldn't pay me enough money to alpha roll him. Muzzle or no... I'd much rather give him a treat!

At least Cesar knows how to protect himself from a biter. Just muzzle that dog and alpha roll him!


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## Babael (Sep 19, 2009)

I think he's a good business man, lol. Every time I search for a dog related video on youtube, there he is. I like to watch his show, however I learn training techniques from my T.D. not from T.V.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Lol. From what you've written of Eko, he sounds like an awesome dog but you couldn't pay me enough money to alpha roll him. Muzzle or no... I'd much rather give him a treat!
> 
> At least Cesar knows how to protect himself from a biter. Just muzzle that dog and alpha roll him!


Ha ha yeah I know he is a total Jekyll and Hyde. Everyone loves him until his other side comes out but he's back to being a love bug just as fast as the monster comes out. I look at it like I could physically put myself in danger and make him fear (respect?) me or I can quietly train at a distance with treats, which is much more pleasant IMO


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I am educated on treat training and positive reinforcement and i believe they can be used in certain cases where there is not aggression involved...i use both of those methods in my training, however I still make sure that my dogs know that I will not tolerate aggression or disobedience by asserting that I am more dominant, and i demand respect.


A significant amount of aggression is fear based. Are you saying you let your dogs know you wont tolerate them being afraid?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

This blog post from a canine aggression expert is a great breakdown of the Holly video and all of the things Cesar did wrong.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> Did you watch my link?
> 
> I can post a few more for you.
> 
> I have used corrections in the training of my previous dog because he was getting to the point of being dangerous around other dogs. I used a prong and control collar not because positive training failed me but because I failed at positive training. I did not have the time or the resources (behaviorist and $$$) to use r+ with his reactivity training. That made me sad but it was that or have him attack and maul other dogs. That being said, I did not and would not in the future alpha roll or "demand respect" from a dog. Thats not a proven technique. Leash pops, prongs, and control collars are actually proven techniques. They have science behind them. Science shows these are not nice but provide control over the dog. Science shows that r+ training is nice and also provides control. I choose r+ first and use my other "tools" later.


Aah, so you DO use assertive/physical training if necessary. ..thank you for being honest, finally. Some me even call a "leash pop" abusive you know.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Aah, so you DO use assertive/physical training if necessary. ..that you for being honest, finally.


Yup. But like I said, the same thing could have been accomplished via positive reinforcement. I just literally had no time. If he was in the hands of a better trainer, he would have gone farther. I failed him in a lot of ways. :/

ETA: I've always been honest about my training with Bae Dog. You are a newer member so you probably haven't seen those threads or know how we struggled. I don't blame you for not knowing everyone's history or whatever. There are plenty of members here who use prongs or e-collars but they use them justly and not under the false guise of "gaining respect" or something as CM does. 

No one hear would set a dog up for failure then correct him.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> This blog post from a canine aggression expert is a great breakdown of the Holly video and all of the things Cesar did wrong.


Can we get past this "Holly" episode! ? I've watched it and stated my opinion on it. And the so called canine aggression expert is stating his OPINION of what Cesar did wrong. Use your own brain and form your own analogies, don't give me that "expert" spill. Cesar is an expert IMO.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> A significant amount of aggression is fear based. Are you saying you let your dogs know you wont tolerate them being afraid?


That's one thing that makes me the pack leader. My dogs know that they do not have to be fearful in my presence because they can trust ME to control the situation.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> Yup. But like I said, the same thing could have been accomplished via positive reinforcement. I just literally had no time. If he was in the hands of a better trainer, he would have gone farther. I failed him in a lot of ways. :/
> 
> ETA: I've always been honest about my training with Bae Dog. You are a newer member so you probably haven't seen those threads or know how we struggled. I don't blame you for not knowing everyone's history or whatever. There are plenty of members here who use prongs or e-collars but they use them justly and not under the false guise of "gaining respect" or something as CM does.
> 
> No one hear would set a dog up for failure then correct him.


YOU absolutely have no argument in this matter being that you use both methods of training with positive results


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Sarah~ said:


> Ha ha yeah I know he is a total Jekyll and Hyde. Everyone loves him until his other side comes out but he's back to being a love bug just as fast as the monster comes out. I look at it like I could physically put myself in danger and make him fear (respect?) me or I can quietly train at a distance with treats, which is much more pleasant IMO


Using treats is not training, ITS BRIBING!!!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> YOU absolutely have no argument in this matter being that you use both methods of training with positive results


My opinion is not negated just because I've used certain training techniques. That's a logical fallacy.

YOU don't understand r+ training if you think treats are bribing. Real talk.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Trust is great! That's what everyone should be trying for in their relationship with their dog. It's entirely a different state of mind from submission though. 

I will say that if you haven't tried something you can't say it doesn't work. I know negative methods, if properly applied, work. People wouldn't use them otherwise. I just don't think it's the only thing that will work or the best way.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I would say setting up dogs for failure then 'correcting them' the way he does is clsoe to it, if not outright abuse. It was unnecessary at best and confusing for the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm truly sorry you got bit...maybe not EVERYONE is a born pack leader, and dogs can sense your weakness.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Using treats is not training, ITS BRIBING!!!


It's not. But even if it was, SO WHAT? If bribing works why wouldn't someone use it? Unless it hurts their ego.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> My opinion is not negated just because I've used certain training techniques. That's a logical fallacy.
> 
> *YOU don't understand r+ training if you think treats are bribing. Real talk.*


Word. (too short)


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I'm truly sorry you got bit...maybe not EVERYONE is a born pack leader, and dogs can sense your weakness.


Lol. Should she never own dogs then? Or maybe she should only own fur baby toy breeds?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I'm truly sorry you got bit...maybe not EVERYONE is a born pack leader, and dogs can sense your weakness.


I'm going to admit it. This is one of the more silly things I've heard RE: dog training.

You're not Alpha enough Laurelin, you're weak. Duh.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I guess CM isn't a very good pack leader... He has been bit how many times now?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hey, I totally ruined my first dog with CM-type training. I suppose now that I admit to actual experience with both methods my feelings on the subject are now invalid .


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Trust is great! That's what everyone should be trying for in their relationship with their dog. It's entirely a different state of mind from submission though.
> 
> I will say that if you haven't tried something you can't say it doesn't work. I know negative methods, if properly applied, work. People wouldn't use them otherwise. I just don't think it's the only thing that will work or the best way.


 Please refer back to my previous posts...i use a combination of all techniques, and expect my dogs to be in a relaxed state of mind in my presence. If my dogs show aggression then I will send them back to a relaxed more submissive mind set.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I'm truly sorry you got bit...maybe not EVERYONE is a born pack leader, and dogs can sense your weakness.


I have no words...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Do you work for free? 

Even that aside, you realize you don't give the dog a treat EVERY TIME IT DOES SOMETHING, right? You give it the treat to say "Yes! You did that right!" And to form a positive association. Then you... phase out the treats and get a dog that happily does as it's asked WITHOUT the treat OR the reward.

I mean honest to god, saying 'YES!" and making the dog happy as opposed to "NO!" and making the dog miserable. That's what it's down to. 

And I reiterate, that if anyone is concerned about getting respect from a DOG, they have one heck of a fragile ego and just about no sense of self-worth or confidence, because honestly? It's a dog. If you're going to be threatened by a perceived lack of respect from a _dog_... you've got some problems that need to be worked on. Who with real confidence or leadership skills gets baited into a battle of wills with a freaking dog? That's several steps below deciding you need to fight with a kindergartner. It implies you think you might *lose*. 

To a dog. 

You think a dog is capable of usurping your position in the household/threatening their authority/is capable of undermining them.

A *dog*.

That's just freaking pathetic.

Or way, way more humanizing of dogs than R+ trainers do. Probably both, actually.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Gally said:


> I guess CM isn't a very good pack leader... He has been bit how many times now?


LOL. Some people aren't born pack leaders I guess .


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Gally said:


> I guess CM isn't a very good pack leader... He has been bit how many times now?


But he did not back down or give up on the technique, that makes him a leader.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Please refer back to my previous posts...i use a combination of all techniques, and expect my dogs to be in a relaxed state of mind in my presence. If my dogs show aggression then I will send them back to a relaxed more submissive mind set.


How do you do that????


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> If my dogs show aggression then I will send them back to a relaxed more submissive mind set.


So how does one relax an aggressive dog? I thought they trusted you enough to never show aggression?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> How do you do that????


Pack leader skills Rabble.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> But he did not back down or give up on the technique, that makes him a leader.


 Because continuing to do something that doesn't work makes someone a pack leader? Or is the definition of insanity, one of the two.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> LOL. Some people aren't born pack leaders I guess .


He reclaimed his position and does not back down by switching to the treat bribe technique lol


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Because continuing to do something that doesn't work makes someone a pack leader? Or is the definition of insanity, one of the two.


It does work.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> But he did not back down or give up on the technique, that makes him a leader.


Not giving up on a technique when it isn't producing the desired outcome isn't being a leader. Leaders change their directions when they see something isn't working.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

SDRRanger said:


> My opinion (coming in late to the party) is that there are good parts that can be taken from most trainers, and parts that I would leave. Some things work for some animals, and other things don't. I personally prefer clicker training and R+, but the dogs I have worked with have responded well to it so I haven't needed to use anything else.
> 
> In a perfect world everyone would have the time, energy, and want to train their dog in a strictly positive way. There would be no need for extra equipment or other methods. But in the real world, some dogs do not have the owners or the time to spend weeks being trained to do something. I'm not saying that barbaric methods (like some of CM and other trainers ways) are needed, but if the difference between a dog having a home or being PTS, surrendered or abandoned is the occasional leash pop, prong collar, etc. USED IN A CORRECT MANNER then I'm not going to berate them for it.


This.

Just because I don't agree with a certain method a person chooses to train their dog with but for all I know they may have reasons for choosing said method ... I don't own the dog, I don't know them like they do.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> So how does one relax an aggressive dog? I thought they trusted you enough to never show aggression?


My dogs never show aggression TOWARD ME. However if a stranger approaches my door my dogs will show what some may call aggression.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

_Leader: the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country._

IF the dog ain't following, he ain't leading.

And dragging the dog along unwillingly isn't following.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Pack leader skills Rabble.


I give up. Merlin and I are going to live in the wild with a wolf pack to learn their ways.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Can we get past this "Holly" episode! ? I've watched it and stated my opinion on it. And the so called canine aggression expert is stating his OPINION of what Cesar did wrong. Use your own brain and form your own analogies, don't give me that "expert" spill. Cesar is an expert IMO.


In what way is Cesar an expert? Also, we'll "get past this 'Holly' episode" when you stop saying that Cesar is right 100% of the time.

As for using my brain... I use it quite frequently, thanks. I use it to read a lot of material about dog training, both positive and negative. Then I use it to separate the techniques I like from the ones I don't. Then I use it to argue against bad techniques from a place of understanding. It's all rather enjoyable.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> But he did not back down or give up on the technique, that makes him a leader.


No, when you do not give up or back down on a technique that is clearly not working… That is called a learning disability.

Seriously, Alapaha, even my _dog_ knows not to do that. Does yours?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> My dogs never show aggression TOWARD ME. However if a stranger approaches my door my dogs will show what some may call aggression.


You still haven't said how you relax them.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> This.
> 
> Just because I don't agree with a certain method a person chooses to train their dog with but for all I know they may have reasons for choosing said method ... I don't own the dog, I don't know them like they do.


Exactly, I use more than one method of training depending on the situation.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> But he did not back down or give up on the technique, that makes him a leader.


No, it makes him an idiot and a bully with a bloody hand


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> You still haven't said how you relax them.


Yes I have, maybe it's in the other thread.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> No, when you do not give up or back down on a technique that is clearly not working… That is called a learning disability.
> 
> Seriously, Alapaha, even my _dog_ knows not to do that. Does yours?


The technique may not have worked for YOU...say that.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> The technique may not have worked for YOU...say that.


I saw how it worked out for him and didn't waste time trying.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You're so proud of it you don't want to say it again? I think if I had such an amazing secret I'd want to share.


But if dogs are still showing undesired behavior with no improvements after a few "corrections" (whatever form this takes), then that training technique isn't working. If you worked on desensitization would your dogs still show "aggression" at the door?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Rabblefox asks the wolf how to be a pack leader.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> No, it makes him an idiot and a bully with a bloody hand


Yeah, I don't know about (general) you but I would rather avoid being bitten and keep my blood inside my skin


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> In what way is Cesar an expert? Also, we'll "get past this 'Holly' episode" when you stop saying that Cesar is right 100% of the time.
> 
> As for using my brain... I use it quite frequently, thanks. I use it to read a lot of material about dog training, both positive and negative. Then I use it to separate the techniques I like from the ones I don't. Then I use it to argue against bad techniques from a place of understanding. It's all rather enjoyable.


Are you people READING MY POSTS!!!???? I STATED THAT I DID THE AGREE WITH ONE METHOD CM USED IN THIS "HOLLY" EPISODE, SO HOW IS THAT SAYING HE IS RIGHT 100% OF THE TIME!!????????


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My current SDIT does not like to be rolled over on his back. It is practically impossible to get him to do so. If I had owned him since a puppy, I do not think it would be an issue (I can roll all the rest of my animals over onto their backs). However, I got him as a 4 year old dog, not a 10 week old.

I have been spending several weeks using +R to get him to start rolling over, and it has been difficult. Loch isn't a big dude, but he's wily and extremely strong. You know what happens if you try to strong arm him onto his back? You run the risk of a dislocated shoulder. How do I know this? Because he nearly dislocated mine. You cannot MAKE this dog do anything.

He's an extremely willing learner, but he's also the kind of dog that would nail you and not feel terribly bad about it if you did something to him he truly found unfair.

Cesar Milan would (rightfully) lose a hand to this dog.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

And we have our first caps lock at last.

Alapaha, remember what we've been telling you about aggression and insecurity...


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Are you people READING MY POSTS!!!???? I STATED THAT I DID THE AGREE WITH ONE METHOD CM USED IN THIS "HOLLY" EPISODE, SO HOW IS THAT SAYING HE IS RIGHT 100% OF THE TIME!!????????


In that case would you care to respond to the "How is CM an expert?" part of the post?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)




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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh yay! We're at the meme part of the thread.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I agree with his method of training, totally. Each case Is different and calls for different strategies.


I think this post is why people think you agree 100% with CM's training techniques.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> In that case would you care to respond to the "How is CM an expert?" part of the post?


The following is MY post from a similar discussion, it explains my thoughts and reasons on this issue: What makes someone an expert on how animals think? Researching what some other "expert" wrote? Going to a school and being taught by a human who learned from books written by other so called experts? And it just goes on and on. The truth of the matter is that science/scientists cannot tell you what your dog is thinking. We can only guess and draw conclusions about how dogs think and feel by studying how they live and interact with each other before human intervention. You seem to forget where your dogs originated from. You can take a dog out of the wild but you cannot take the wild out of a dog, and what i mean by that is that no matter how much humans have domesticated dogs, they are STILL dogs and we have and cannot change the way that they think. Cesar has studied dogs and interacted with dogs and he applies that knowledge to his training, he communicates with dogs in a way that is very similar to the way that they communicate with one another. Im sorry to break this to you but the "dog world" is not as pretty and harmonious as humans would like for it to be. I DO NOT condone abuse in any way, however in the dog world there HAS to be a leader who sets rules and boundaries, otherwise there would be no structure. You have more than one dog so you know that one is more dominant than the other. You should also remember that your beloved pets are first animals, then dogs, and lastly name. if you think for one second that a previously food aggressive dog will never bite a child again for touching its food, because you "trained" it with treats not to do so then let me tell you, you are sadly mistaken and have caused an accident waiting to happen.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You haven't answered about why bribery is so terrible if it works .

OK, so why is Cesar such an expert having "studied dogs and worked with dogs", but other people who have studied dogs and worked with dogs aren't experts in your opinion?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Gally said:


> I think this post is why people think you agree 100% with CM's training techniques.


I said the method, his underlying points, not necessarily EVERY SINGLE thing that he does.You got it?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> The following is MY post from a similar discussion, it explains my thoughts and reasons on this issue: What makes someone an expert on how animals think? Researching what some other "expert" wrote? Going to a school and being taught by a human who learned from books written by other so called experts? And it just goes on and on. The truth of the matter is that science/scientists cannot tell you what your dog is thinking. We can only guess and draw conclusions about how dogs think and feel by studying how they live and interact with each other before human intervention. You seem to forget where your dogs originated from. You can take a dog out of the wild but you cannot take the wild out of a dog, and what i mean by that is that no matter how much humans have domesticated dogs, they are STILL dogs and we have and cannot change the way that they think. Cesar has studied dogs and interacted with dogs and he applies that knowledge to his training, he communicates with dogs in a way that is very similar to the way that they communicate with one another. Im sorry to break this to you but the "dog world" is not as pretty and harmonious as humans would like for it to be. I DO NOT condone abuse in any way, however in the dog world there HAS to be a leader who sets rules and boundaries, otherwise there would be no structure. You have more than one dog so you know that one is more dominant than the other. You should also remember that your beloved pets are first animals, then dogs, and lastly name. if you think for one second that a previously food aggressive dog will never bite a child again for touching its food, because you "trained" it with treats not to do so then let me tell you, you are sadly mistaken and have caused an accident waiting to happen.


You know that actual behaviourists conduct research studies to, you know, become behaviourists, right? 

How is CM taking his personal experience and saying "This is why I think dogs do this." any better?


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Xeph said:


> My current SDIT does not like to be rolled over on his back. It is practically impossible to get him to do so. If I had owned him since a puppy, I do not think it would be an issue (I can roll all the rest of my animals over onto their backs). However, I got him as a 4 year old dog, not a 10 week old.
> 
> I have been spending several weeks using +R to get him to start rolling over, and it has been difficult. Loch isn't a big dude, but he's wily and extremely strong. You know what happens if you try to strong arm him onto his back? You run the risk of a dislocated shoulder. How do I know this? Because he nearly dislocated mine. You cannot MAKE this dog do anything.
> 
> ...


The thought of anyone trying to alpha roll a GSD is kind of comical to me, lol. I've tried to get Eko to roll over and failed miserably. I would never try to MAKE him, he would probably just watch me pull a muscle trying like "what the heck is she doing?"


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I'm truly sorry you got bit...maybe not EVERYONE is a born pack leader, and dogs can sense your weakness.


Oh that's totally it. Or maybe you shouldn't bully dogs. Then you don't get bit. Magic. I got bit because I was stupid plain and simple. 

But no I'm just a weakling who can't train dogs. I just spent a long time walking my dogs both on and off leash and they were perfectly behaved around all sorts of stimulus. Mia let a crazy kid weaving on a skateboard pass without blinking- which is a big deal for her after she got run over by one a couple years ago and decided to be fear aggressive about them. My dogs pass lunging dogs without blinking despite both being naturally dog selective and reactive. 

Probably doesn't count though because they're foo foo dogs. :/. But if you watch Cesar then you know you can have small dogs who are as much of a terror as any out of control dog.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Without reading pages 1-100 I will say when CM says dogs need exercise, especially what does he call a certain group. Gladiators? I love it when I exercise my dogs and they are sprawled out leaving me alone for the night. It is a Redbox night for sure! 

He has changed his ways a little since the first tv days but I would not listen to a tv star who has more film laying on the floor than what is being shown in a tv show. 

So my thoughts on CM. I would not tell someone who is having problems with a reactive dog to give their dog a bite with my hand to get the dog to calm down. Untrained human and a reactive dog = bite to the hand. 
I see him being a tv star and that is it.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> You know that actual behaviourists conduct research studies to, you know, become behaviourists, right?
> 
> How is CM taking his personal experience and saying "This is why I think dogs do this." any better?


 My point is that he is as much an expert as the people who wrote the links everyone was posting


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> The following is MY post from a similar discussion, it explains my thoughts and reasons on this issue: What makes someone an expert on how animals think? Researching what some other "expert" wrote? Going to a school and being taught by a human who learned from books written by other so called experts?


Well:



> Patricia McConnell, Ph.D., a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, (CAAB) has made a lifelong commitment to improving the relationship between people and animals. She is known worldwide as an expert on canine and feline behavior and dog training, and for her engaging and knowledgeable dog training books, DVDs and seminars. Patricia has seen clients for serious behavioral problems since 1988, and is an Adjunct Professor in Zoology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, teaching "The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Relationships." For fourteen years she dispensed advice about behavior problems, and information about animal behavior research, on Wisconsin Public Radio's Calling All Pets, which was heard in over 90 cities around the country.
> 
> ...
> 
> Patricia received her Ph.D. in Zoology in 1988 from the University of Wisconsin-Madison researching dog behavior and communication between professional trainers and working domestic animals. Her dissertation received the prestigious Allee Award from the Animal Behavior Society in that same year. Patricia and Nancy Raffetto founded Dog's Best Friend, Ltd in 1988.


From here.



> Jean Donaldson is a native of Montreal, Canada and a graduate of McGill University with degrees in Music and Comparative Psychology. She has trained dogs since 1975, and, in 1989, she founded the Montreal Flyball Association and in 1990, Renaissance Dog Training. Ever the over-achiever, Jean participated in a variety of dog sports such as Obedience, Tracking and Flyball.
> 
> In 1996, Jean decided to share her more than 20 years of experience and published her first book, The Culture Clash, which has won numerous awards, including The Dog Writer's Association of America's Maxwell Award for the best training and behavior book of the year. Since its publication, The Culture Clash has been the number one recommendation for dog trainers of The Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT). Jean’s other books include the multiple award-winning MINE! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs, Fight! A Guide to Dog-Dog Aggression, and Oh Behave! Dogs from Pavlov to Premack to Pinker. She has also authored a DVD on basic obedience called Perfect Paws in Five Days.
> 
> ...


From here.



> Dr. Ian Dunbar is a veterinarian, animal behaviorist, and writer. He received his veterinary degree and a Special Honors degree in Physiology & Biochemistry from the Royal Veterinary College (London University) and a doctorate in animal behavior from the Psychology Department at the University of California in Berkeley, where he spent ten years researching olfactory communication, the development of hierarchical social behavior, and aggression in domestic dogs.
> 
> Dr. Dunbar is a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, the International Society for Applied Ethology, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior, the California Veterinary Medical Association, the Sierra Veterinary Medical Association, and the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (which he founded).
> 
> ...


From here.

You will note that these three experts (definitely not the _only_ ones I like, but three of my faves) have all done extensive work with dogs. McConnell has also studied monkeys and other animals (she is an applied animal behaviorist, not just a dog behaviorist). You don't learn about dogs only through reading books -- all of these people have decades of hands-on experience.

What are Cesar's qualifications?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> My point is that he is as much an expert as the people who wrote the links everyone was posting


Even though his techniques are outdated and ineffective? As proven by... science?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> My point is that he is as much an expert as the people who wrote the links everyone was posting


So his personal opinion (based on a flawed study, btw) is equal to years of training, peer reviewed research studies, and years of education to understand animals.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

You know, it's not just Holly, the lab...

Strangling a dog





Hitting a dog





Kicking dogs





Scruffing and lifting dogs off their feet





Dragging a dog up stairs with a choke collar





Ignoring stress/calming signals and saying they're signs of dominance





Hmmmm....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The thought of anyone trying to alpha roll a GSD is kind of comical to me, lol.


For the record, I was NOT trying to alpha roll him. I don't do that to my dogs. I roll them over on their backs so I can check for any cuts, parasites, to apply medication, or, in the case of the boys, to check the testicles for any damage. It's a matter of function and care, not discipline


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

We could argue this for days and not get anywhere, I'm going to end with this...Please don't suggest this bribe training to someone with a highly aggressive/possessive dog, because when the treats are gone, eventually the dogs true colors WILL resurface...someone innocent could be hurt. Good night


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Man. Out running the dogs and I miss everything.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Xeph said:


> For the record, I was NOT trying to alpha roll him. I don't do that to my dogs. I roll them over on their backs so I can check for any cuts, parasites, to apply medication, or, in the case of the boys, to check the testicles for any damage. It's a matter of function and care, not discipline


Oh sorry I knew what you meant. I didn't mean to imply you were


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> We could argue this for days and not get anywhere, I'm going to end with this...Please don't suggest this bribe training to someone with a highly aggressive/possessive dog, because when the treats are gone, eventually the dogs true colors WILL resurface...someone innocent could be hurt. Good night


This is how people here know that you have not done any r+ work, nor have you worked with any "aggressive" or "possessive" dog lol.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

My dog training has all been a lie. All I've been doing is bribing and not actually training. :Cry:


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

taquitos said:


> This is how people here know that you have not done any r+ work, nor have you worked with any "aggressive" or "possessive" dog lol.


Yep. Absolute exposure of total ignorance with that one.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> We could argue this for days and not get anywhere, I'm going to end with this...Please don't suggest this bribe training to someone with a highly aggressive/possessive dog, because when the treats are gone, eventually the dogs true colors WILL resurface...someone innocent could be hurt. Good night


Yup, because force-based training never ever has any blowback, dogs never respond to aggression with aggression. . .LOL. 

Look, I FIXED my Rott's food guarding with treats. Now he's happy to have me near his food dish. I don't think happy is going to turn to aggression just because "the treats are gone", especially being that I haven't continued the desensitization since he changed his mind about me being near his dish. Desensitization changes the dog's feelings about something instead of suppressing the behavior. I would like to see you fix that by making him "relax", because I think you might lose a limb. Bully breeds are notoriously tolerant of rough handling but working breeds like Rotts and GSDs don't play that game. If I tried force to suppress his guarding I would have lost and I'm sure he would have been killed if I had ended up in the hospital. We're both alive and not scarred so I'm gonna call it a success. Yay bribery .


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

*Alapaha.
*
The thing that sets the other experts aside from someone like Cesar is that _they have their authority validated by other experts._ In the academic field, this is basically the concept of 'peer reviewing'. I could come up to a bunch of Grade 5's and say I was an expert in astrophysics and start spouting stuff off… what does that mean to them? They know little about astrophysics and therefore cannot confirm or disprove my theories. 

On the other hand, _another_ expert in the field, presumedly one who has been certified by the overarching body of astrophysicists, could either back me up, or let the grade fives know that what I was explaining to them was from an episode of Futurama.

Basically, this is how Cesar claims his expertise: He hangs around the 'Grade 5's' of dog training, aka the novices with no formal education in the field, and so long as they don't know enough to know that he's spouting B.S., he's still the expert! What you'll notice though is that *he has no other current, relevant experts backing him up.* Not even the ASPCA (who thinks that he's a moron and instead advocates positive training).


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Look, I had a RGer. He easily would have nailed me and Kimma good over toys AND food on NUMEROUS occasions if I hadn't realized his fear, took heed of his signals (growl, lip licks, ears back, tense body), and started using *GASP* treats to trade with him. I didn't "dominate." I SHOWED him that it was OK for me and others (including dogs) to be near his things because he often got even better things! And look at that! My dog who has bit another dog (though in his defense the other dog started it), was deemed "untrainable" by another trainer and therefore taken to a shelter by his original family, and even tried to bite the vet the first time I took him (I had no idea he would try to do that otherwise I would have proceeded differently) is now a certified therapy dog. And guess what? I don't HAVE to trade anymore. He gives up things on his own because I have built that positive association. That is what positive training is about. It's not a bribe (as others have said, if you are bribing you are doing it wrong) - you are helping to build an association to change a behavior. 

ETA - It's been 3 years since this training all took place. And even with introducing another dog and then a puppy in to the mix, I have not had issues. Guess I'm just waiting for his true colors to resurface 

We have dog reactive dogs and even had a people reactive dog at work. What do we do? Lots of BAT and LAT training. With treats/toys. Now the formerly people reactive dog is placed as a dual purpose patrol dog and settled in with her brand new family in a week. They will always be careful introducing her to strangers, but we helped her to see that all people are NOT threats and to become a confident dog able to handle the pressures of police work. She doesn't get treats on a daily basis for this stuff anymore because we helped change her mindset with the work we put in. Plus I doubt the police carry Milkbones around


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> We could argue this for days and not get anywhere, I'm going to end with this...Please don't suggest this bribe training to someone with a highly aggressive/possessive dog, because when the treats are gone, eventually the dogs true colors WILL resurface...someone innocent could be hurt. Good night


You should think about why you're opposed to us advising people to use positive methods, but you have no problem telling someone to use force and intimidation on an aggressive/fearful (bite risk!) dog. You say you _don't_ want anyone to get hurt?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What I REALLY don't understand is how a 'method' that ends in a bite is preferable over a method that slowly builds positive experiences for the dog with humans taking away things and no one gets bit?

How did he fix anything at all? He just taught the dog that humans won't back down and will get aggressive when taking your food so you'd better bite them for it. How is that dog safer around a kid?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

petpeeve said:


> Are you sure you've been watching?
> 
> CM is not a leader. He is a tyrant who rules with an iron fist, and obtains the so-called 'structure' through unconventional and cruel means.
> 
> ...


Comparing CM to Hitler? Really???? 


Over Dramatic... . Just a little.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> JohnnyBandit--what don't you like on Victoria Stilwell? I'm just curious b/c I used to watch her shows all the time and I applied her methods in her book and shows to Luke.


Her Methodologies are tedious, she over thinks things then comes to the wrong conclusions. She is not seeing what she things she is...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well, Victoria is also no more of an expert than Milan. She's an actress turned dog trainer.

That said, her methods are less harmful than Cesar's.



> She is not seeing what she things she is...


The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third one is wrong.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, I don't think that Victoria Stilwell is any sort of expert, although I liked her show a lot more than Cesar's because at least if people emulated her, they weren't setting themselves up for a bite. She also seems interested in continued learning, and on her blog she links a lot of interesting studies and articles from actual experts. There are a lot of people I'd recommend over her, but she's pretty inoffensive, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> You're so proud of it you don't want to say it again? I think if I had such an amazing secret I'd want to share.
> 
> 
> But if dogs are still showing undesired behavior with no improvements after a few "corrections" (whatever form this takes), then that training technique isn't working. If you worked on desensitization would your dogs still show "aggression" at the door?


I encourage my dog to alert me to someone at my door, until i approach the door.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> From all I have seen lately, you do a questionable job of demanding any respect.
> 
> First it's _'I never lay a hand on my dog'_ then it's _'There's nothing wrong with pinning a puppy down'_, then it's _'Y'all humanize your dogs too much '_ and then _'Oh, nope, when they disobey me it's obviously because they are flipping me the doggy bird and making some sort of personal slight against me when they choose not to roll over'_.
> 
> The arguments and statements that you have put out in various threads are very inconsistent. And we all know that consistency is a large part of being taken seriously. Of all these statements, which is it that you are actually advocating here?


Please show me the post where i said its okay to pin a puppy down...INSANITY! If my arguments are so inconsistent, why do you continue to argue? For this reason i will ignore you from now on, and save my time.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> We could argue this for days and not get anywhere, I'm going to end with this...Please don't suggest this bribe training to someone with a highly aggressive/possessive dog, because when the treats are gone, eventually the dogs true colors WILL resurface...someone innocent could be hurt. Good night


Oh dear, this again.

First- no one is suggesting bribe training.

What they are suggesting is building a positive association with people being around the dog's food/toy/other valued item. By doing this, eventually the dog will change how they feel about people being near their valued item. Eventually you phase the treats out, and the dog still thinks people being around their valued item is a good thing, and thus no longer feels the need to guard it. The internal dialogue changes from "Hey, you better not come over here and take my food! It's my food you can't have it!" to "Hey, go ahead and take this food because good things happen when you do that! Yea, go ahead and have it!"

Again, it's called operant conditioning and is used in many aspects of science and animal behaviour, not just dogs. 

Like others have said, if you're bribing the dog you're doing it wrong.

Again like others have said, I've seen the progress of RG dogs at the shelter from week to week when +R is used. Others here have used this technique first hand to fix RG. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that our experiences... I don't know... Didn't happen or something?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Owner of an ex SUPER extreme RGer. Literally any treat, toy, etc. set him off when I first got him. I used r+ training so watch out he might turn vicious on me one day! Nevermind that I would have probably ruined his trust in me (the INCREDIBLE amount of trust he has in me), and put myself in danger by using any of Cesar's techniques.

Also tell that to my leash reactive foster dog who was RUINED by a CM-esque trainer. I am still trying to undo the damage he did on that poor dog, and training with her twice a week to get her confidence level back to where it was when I had her.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I do not understand why there "has to be" a trainer on tv that is considered good. I have watched most of them. Read a few others, maybe I am jaded. but non impress me much if at all.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

I am not saying that I agree with every single tactic that CM uses, I am saying that I totally agree with the METHODOLOGY. There should be no denying that CM has a brilliant understanding of dog behavior and the ability to "read" a dog. I do know that positive reinforcement works, but not always in every situation, such as "red zone" as CM refers to it. I do believe that a calm assertive approach should always be a part of ANY training program. I hope that I have just explained my point of view in a way that everyone can comprehend. I am beginning to get the feeling that some people are simply here for the sake of argument.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I do not understand why there "has to be" a trainer on tv that is considered good. I have watched most of them. Read a few others, maybe I am jaded. but non impress me much if at all.


I don't think they have to be good but it's certainly good to remember they're tv personalities above all else. You want to see real training, I'd watch someone good in person. That way you're not getting the 'director's cut' making them look good....


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Comparing CM to Hitler? Really????
> 
> 
> Over Dramatic... . Just a little.


I compared him to Saddam Hussein too, but I kinda figured *somebody* would object to that particular one sooner or later.

There's something about Hitler that still gets a predictable rise out of people, the same way when CM's name is mentioned. Many MANY people are or were extremely disturbed by the actions of both men. So yeah, I see a definite connection there myself, although some might think it's a distant one.

Tyranny has many faces, imo. And sometimes we just like to believe it has all gone away. Yet it still exists on various levels in the world today. That's mostly what I was saying, really.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> There should be no denying that CM has a brilliant understanding of dog behavior and the ability to "read" a dog.


Okay this is just... crap. The man obviously can't see a calming signal from ten inches away. Thats how he keeps getting bit! All of his videos where he totally overreacts the dogs are giving PLENTY of signals that they are over threshold, and he is completely failing to read them.

If he knows how to read a dog, then he really should start doing it and save himself and everyone else the trouble.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

One of the argumentative ones, smh


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Okay this is just... crap. The man obviously can't see a calming signal from ten inches away. Thats how he keeps getting bit! All of his videos where he totally overreacts the dogs are giving PLENTY of signals that they are over threshold, and he is completely failing to read them.
> 
> If he knows how to read a dog, then he really should start doing it and save himself and everyone else the trouble.


Agreed.

He either A) Really has no idea how to read dogs and thus has no business having a TV show about it. or B) Does know how to read dogs and intentionally makes them uncomfortable so they lash out and make better TV.

Either way doesn't sit well with me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Coincidentally, I have an issue of Cesar's Way magazine right here in front of me today . Not a bad magazine altogether. Of course Cesar himself probably has nothing to do with the magazine (it's not even written in his speaking style like they try to do with Rachel Ray's magazine!!!). Mostly fluff---cute stories about shelter dogs, one about Rottie/Westie mix (!) pups used as a cautionary tale to have your Westie neutered even if think he's too small to mate with your Rottie, a thing about spring cleaning, etc. 

The training stuff is, hmm, I guess the best way I can explain it is New-Agey. All about energy and being fully present. It actually reminds me of a New-Agey hippie vegetarian magazine my mom used to get . 

Some statements are downright weird---like using the word picture of a teenager sitting quietly happily eating his cereal on Saturday morning as an example of "calm submissive". Wut? I assure you that if I am quietly but happily eating something I am not submitting to anybody. I'm not sure the writer of that article understands what submissive means. 

Like his books, it's mostly about how awesome Mr. Millan is ("Cesar is the ultimate teacher!") but short on explanations of actually how one goes about having good energy and whatnot. Basically I think it's a lot of catchphrases to describe normal things (not being a simpering twit = "summoning assertive energy", not being a screechy psycho = "practicing calm energy", not stepping in front of a car on your walks = "being a good pack leader", cleaning your house = " creating a harmonious environment", etc.). 

And it actually recommends using treats for a lot of things, like desensitizing your dog into not wanting to bite the vet . Nothing more offensive than your average issue of Good Housekeeping. If this is what Cesar followers want to follow, no problem. They'll be a little hippie but nothing awful. Just hope they don't watch the TV show .


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think comparing him to hitler is more than a little bit drastic. I do agree he often reads dogs poorly. Re: holly episode and 'I didn't see that coming'.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> One of the argumentative ones, smh


http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html

Cesar uses an outdated and a theory that was based on false assumptions of wolf packs. 

If he is going to use correctional training, he should do it right.


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## Sassy Paw (Mar 13, 2014)

Has anyone here seen the episode of South Park where Cartman's mother hires CM to train Cartman? They did a pretty good job of showing how barbaric his methods are by using biting satire.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155251/cartman-vs-the-dog-whisperer


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

ireth0 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> He either A) Really has no idea how to read dogs and thus has no business having a TV show about it. or B) Does know how to read dogs and intentionally makes them uncomfortable so they lash out and make better TV.
> 
> Either way doesn't sit well with me.


I would suspect B more than A, but due to B, it makes A much more believable. 

We have to remember that each show has a script. A script that is intended to satisfy the sponsors and trade $$$ for the sake of entertainment. Calming signals aren't weighed in that equation. I mean, they wouldn't have the caveat before each episode and be lawyered up if this weren't true.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Coincidentally, I have an issue of Cesar's Way magazine right here in front of me today . Not a bad magazine altogether. Of course Cesar himself probably has nothing to do with the magazine (it's not even written in his speaking style like they try to do with Rachel Ray's magazine!!!). Mostly fluff---cute stories about shelter dogs, one about Rottie/Westie mix (!) pups used as a cautionary tale to have your Westie neutered even if think he's too small to mate with your Rottie, a thing about spring cleaning, etc.
> 
> The training stuff is, hmm, I guess the best way I can explain it is New-Agey. All about energy and being fully present. It actually reminds me of a New-Agey hippie vegetarian magazine my mom used to get .
> 
> ...


Haha, yes. 

I don't think that word means what they think it means. It seems like they use submissive to mean anything other than actively 'challenging' for dominance. To submit, you have to have something or someone that you're submitting -to-, it's not just a state of being verb.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So, dictionary.com:

Submissive:
1. inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient: submissive servants.
2. marked by or indicating submission: a submissive reply.

Submit:
1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others: to submit a plan; to submit an application.

Synonyms:
abject, accommodating, acquiescent, amenable, bowing down, comformable, complying, deferential, docile, domesticated, dutiful, giving-in, humble, ingratiating, lowly, malleable, meek, menial, nonresistant, nonresisting, obedient, obeisant, obeying, obsequious, passive, patient, pliable, pliant, resigned, servile, slavish, subdued, tame, tractable, uncomplaining, unresisting, yes*, yielding


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sassy Paw said:


> Has anyone here seen the episode of South Park where Cartman's mother hires CM to train Cartman? They did a pretty good job of showing how barbaric his methods are by using biting satire.
> 
> http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155251/cartman-vs-the-dog-whisperer


OMG I loved that episode so very very much xD, I upload it to YouTube like ... All the time.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

petpeeve said:


> I compared him to Saddam Hussein too, but I kinda figured *somebody* would object to that particular one sooner or later.
> 
> There's something about Hitler that still gets a predictable rise out of people, the same way when CM's name is mentioned. Many MANY people are or were extremely disturbed by the actions of both men. So yeah, I see a definite connection there myself, although some might think it's a distant one.
> 
> Tyranny has many faces, imo. And sometimes we just like to believe it has all gone away. Yet it still exists on various levels in the world today. That's mostly what I was saying, really.


While you may not like his methods.... Tyrant does not fit here... 

And you are being over slightly over dramatic.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I am not saying that I agree with every single tactic that CM uses, I am saying that I totally agree with the METHODOLOGY. *There should be no denying that CM has a brilliant understanding of dog behavior and the ability to "read" a dog.* I do know that positive reinforcement works, but not always in every situation, such as "red zone" as CM refers to it. I do believe that a calm assertive approach should always be a part of ANY training program. I hope that I have just explained my point of view in a way that everyone can comprehend. I am beginning to get the feeling that some people are simply here for the sake of argument.


Did you even watch the videos I posted? In one of them CM keeps pushing and pushing a dog who is obviously TERRIFIED and saying that the dog's signs of fear and calming signals (ie avoiding him, looking away) are signs of dominance... Brilliant at reading body language? Doubtful.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kayota said:


> Did you even watch the videos I posted? In one of them CM keeps pushing and pushing a dog who is obviously TERRIFIED and saying that the dog's signs of fear and calming signals (ie avoiding him, looking away) are signs of dominance... Brilliant at reading body language? Doubtful.


Agreed, if he was so good at reading body language, he wouldn't get bitten so often :/


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

At work it is not about reading a dog's signal as much as it having fast reflexes from preventing a bite from happening. Some dogs just snark out and you better be fast on the withdraw. 

I did not agree with all my teachers while in school but what I did learn came from all of them. 

There are many good trainers out there and some will never get a tv show or the recognition they deserved. Just as there are as many good ones there are just as many bad ones and some will get a tv show or an info commercial and will get recognition for what they do not deserve..


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

There is a lot of love for him on the bully / bull dog forums (I have know someone who is on a few ... And what others have said about them). Bully owners are lucky that bully breeds, generally are very forgiving of handler mistakes, I would like to see them use their bullying techniques on a dog who is not so forgiving of handler mistakes. 

While I argue that some breeds need stricter training then other, that does NOT mean I condone cruel, painful, or abusive methods. It's more of a "ok fine if you don't want to behave then you get to go to time out and you have no fun AT ALL and we have fun without you". It's more of creating rules and sticking to them 100 % of the time then it is about inflicting pain and such.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> While I argue that some breeds need stricter training then other, that does NOT mean I condone cruel, painful, or abusive methods. It's more of a "ok fine if you don't want to behave then you get to go to time out and you have no fun AT ALL and we have fun without you". It's more of creating rules and sticking to them 100 % of the time then it is about inflicting pain and such.


That's not even a "some breeds" thing, though. We recommend stopping play or leaving the room when a puppy of any breed won't stop nipping. I've recommended NILIF to people with all kinds of breeds. Dogs are dogs, really. Some push the boundaries more, some are more forgiving of mistakes, some pick up on our cues more easily than others... but they all respond to the basics the same way. There's a reason that these techniques are used for training everything from mice to chickens to hyenas to whales.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> That's not even a "some breeds" thing, though. We recommend stopping play or leaving the room when a puppy of any breed won't stop nipping. I've recommended NILIF to people with all kinds of breeds. Dogs are dogs, really. Some push the boundaries more, some are more forgiving of mistakes, some pick up on our cues more easily than others... but they all respond to the basics the same way. There's a reason that these techniques are used for training everything from mice to chickens to hyenas to whales.


I know, that's what I was trying to say ... You just always say it better LMBO


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I suppose it's a bit late now, but you should read this thread.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Re CM-He has nice teeth though...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I don't want to go find my post in this mess but I wanted to point out that I freely admitted in this thread that I am not a purely positive trainer and have used/will use punishment when it best suits me, my dogs, and the situation we're in. I just don't want to base my training method in punishment. I want to base it on a cooperative working bond. There's a big difference. 

I'm pretty sure people disagree with me on that but it's okay. We're all adults and making our own decisions. And if they want to explain to me how to be a better trainer then that's cool too. I've learned a lot from the general discourse. At the least it makes me stop and think sometimes and that's always a good thing even if my conclusion is to continue doing what I'm doing.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I don't want to go find my post in this mess but I wanted to point out that I freely admitted in this thread that I am not a purely positive trainer and have used/will use punishment when it best suits me, my dogs, and the situation we're in. I just don't want to base my training method in punishment. I want to base it on a cooperative working bond. There's a big difference.
> 
> I'm pretty sure people disagree with me on that but it's okay. We're all adults and making our own decisions. And if they want to explain to me how to be a better trainer then that's cool too. I've learned a lot from the general discourse. At the least it makes me stop and think sometimes and that's always a good thing even if my conclusion is to continue doing what I'm doing.


Preach it, Laur. 

Re: Cran's comment about different breeds... eeeehhhh, this tells me people probably haven't worked with breeds with more extreme traits? It's true the basics are all the same and learning theory always applies, however, the consequences for say, Keeva the Cardi if allowed to live an unstructured life and given no obedience training are vastly different from those that would follow if Blossom the Malinois were treated the same. Keeva without structure is just a loud, bossy, busy PITA - Blossom would be downright dangerous, potentially. Not to mention that a dog like Blossom actually suffers mentally (and I do means suffers) without constant handler input/leadership and _a lot_ of control in the form of obedience. This can vary between the individual of course but there are definitely strong tendencies in breeds. Both my girls are typical for their breeds in that way. There is a reason that people will suggest certain breeds need strong leaders even more than others. Blossom is visibly stressed by a lack of structure and handler feedback; Keeva couldn't care less but is more of a pain for ME if I don't provide her with structure. 

I don't think it's unfair to suggest there are general trends amongst breeds regarding what they require to be happy, healthy, a safe community members when it comes to structure and training. Having lived and worked with a variety of breeds, I would be concerned if someone suggested my Malinois and Cocker mix are basically the same in that way. It's just not very accurate. It has absolutely been my experience that some breeds, in general, need firmer structure than others.

ETA: Cran, I don't mean the comment about more extreme breeds to come off like a um... peeing contest, lol. I just know that our experience informs our opinions and if I had never owned or worked with a dog that was... so MUCH dog, I would probably agree, but my opinions have changed since owning and later working with dogs like these.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Ok. I'm going to try to write down my opinion. Lol. I'm not sure how it will come out.*

I think providing (rigid) structure and exercise is important for some of the sharper, high energy breeds but that's why not all breeds don't work for all people. But that doesn't mean alpha rolling, dragging, kicking, etc. is ok. Just because you own a [tough person breed] doesn't justify using an outdated technique. 

A lot of people will say "Treat training doesn't work for [this breed] because [breed related excuse]." We know that's not true. What works to teach a cocker to sit and heel will work to teach a Mal to sit and heel. I think the issue for the sharper, larger breed is they get dangerous fast. When there is a dog who is a danger to the public and other dogs or to the handler and the dog itself, then I think you need to teach into your tool bag. 

When you get a [magical ACD, special Mal, insane Aussie, blah blah blah breed that is hard] you need to set boundaries. Boundaries that the dog must not cross. These boundaries can be set and maintained through positive reinforcement, especially with puppies and young dogs. Harder dogs will require more structure, more boundaries, more exercise but on a base level the training is the same. 

I think the best place to start for all dogs and all breeds is r+. Then, if you feel you must correct, correct properly and not under the false guise of being an ultimate pack leader. 

Dogs are individuals. Even within their breed they differ. It's important to use what works with your dog to keep him and the public happy, healthy, and safe. 90% of the time, that is something positive reinforcement can do in a timely manner. The other 10% is where you don't have the time because the dog is becoming dangerous, doing something wholly unhealthy, etc. 

*I use r+ only with Merlin as of right now. I doubt he will need to be corrected more beyond a "Hey!" or "Ah ah!" I have used corrections and corrective tools in the past however and would do so again if I felt the need was there.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> Ok. I'm going to try to write down my opinion. Lol. I'm not sure how it will come out.*
> 
> I think providing (rigid) structure and exercise is important for some of the sharper, high energy breeds but that's why not all breeds don't work for all people. But that doesn't mean alpha rolling, dragging, kicking, etc. is ok. Just because you own a [tough person breed] doesn't justify using an outdated technique.
> 
> ...


I totally agree.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Ok. I'm going to try to write down my opinion. Lol. I'm not sure how it will come out.*
> 
> I think providing (rigid) structure and exercise is important for some of the sharper, high energy breeds but that's why not all breeds don't work for all people. But that doesn't mean alpha rolling, dragging, kicking, etc. is ok. Just because you own a [tough person breed] doesn't justify using an outdated technique.
> 
> ...


I agree too!

I think my main beef is when people jump to corrective tools first as the go-to solution rather than a last-resort-when-all-else-fails thing.

I find it's often because they just aren't aware that they have other options. Dog barks too much? Get a bark collar! Pulls on leash? Get prong and do some leash pops!

It isn't that there isn't a time and a place for those tools when used properly, but usually they're not necessary for most situations.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Also, for what it's worth, I don't consider my dog that has a high requirement for leadership to be "dominant" at all. She's not. She's very, VERY happy to take direction, she craves it. It's not about "dominant" at all, it's about the fact that she needs constant handler input to be healthy and happy. And it's not about taking her "down a peg" either. It's about giving her what she needs. 

And no, I don't see breed as a justification for physical punishment either. That's just weird. lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> I agree too!
> 
> I think my main beef is when people jump to corrective tools first as the go-to solution rather than a last-resort-when-all-else-fails thing.
> 
> ...



Yes, and the venue we are discussing in plays a role in this too.

Come on, I use shock collars and prongs without any real apology or guilt when the situation calls for it but I'm not going to advise somebody coming to a dog forum to use those methods! You have a situation that calls for that, you have a situation that calls for hands on advise from a real trainer who can teach you how to do that safely and appropriately for your dog, so you're actually teaching something and not just traumatizing your dog - or if you have the experience to need that, you don't need to ask an internet forum how to do it.

I'm not being responsible for someone getting bitten or a dog being shut down or injured.

Alpha rolls,however, are always just dumb.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I can't say anything more than what Laurelin, Emily, RabbleFox, Ireth0, and CptJack have eloquently stated already.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Also, for what it's worth, I don't consider my dog that has a high requirement for leadership to be "dominant" at all. She's not. She's very, VERY happy to take direction, she craves it. It's not about "dominant" at all, it's about the fact that she needs constant handler input to be healthy and happy. And it's not about taking her "down a peg" either. It's about giving her what she needs.
> 
> And no, I don't see breed as a justification for physical punishment either. That's just weird. lol.


That's what confusing about those types. From what I understand, Border Collies are similar. And when Pepper was young he needed it too. They WANT you to direct them. "Please tell me what to do!!!!" or they end up as spazzing messes who eat drywall, chase shadows, and kill the neighbor's cat. 

Well said everyone. It's almost like we know what we are taling about lol.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> That's what confusing about those types. From what I understand, Border Collies are similar. And when Pepper was young he needed it too. They WANT you to direct them. "Please tell me what to do!!!!" or they end up as spazzing messes who eat drywall, chase shadows, and kill the neighbor's cat.
> 
> Well said everyone. It's almost like we know what we are taling about lol.


Totally, it's like if they don't get the input they need, they make their own rules and they're not good ones usually lol. It's sad really, a dog like that without a strong handler is like a planet with no star to orbit around, just spinning through space wildly. Bad news. And then the owner's like, "He's stubborn! He's crazy! He's 'dominant!'" No, you didn't give him what he needed so he gave up on looking to your for help.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mia is a dog that needs near constant handler feedback. She's 8 lbs though so not in any danger of being dangerous. I could see a dog like her turning nuts very very fast and easily with well meaning people. 

She's a good dog and tries very hard to be a good dog. Her mind though... it just goes and goes like no dog I've owned before. Summer is easy and takes everything at face value and accepts it and moves on. There is no real fitting Summer into life, she just does. My world pretty well revolves around Mia because it just has to. It's not that she's spoiled, she just needs a lot more direction all the time. I never had to teach another dog to settle down because they just did. Mia won't sometimes. She'll just go up and up and up and up. I never had to work through dogs that thought the way to go out on potty breaks was to screech and spin and attack other dogs and plants, but Mia is that way. We've had to do so many calm composure type exercises to get her to where she is going in and out of doors okay. And it's not like it's done with once you work through it a while. It's constant. I will always have to be that way with her. And it's not that she's a bad dog or anything or that I'm a super duper owner, it's just... the way it is. I enjoy it a lot, it's been a great experience and she's constantly making me evaluate the how and why I'm doing things and where I'm not doing things well. It is second nature to me to involve my dogs in most things- give them little jobs to do or commands. So it works out just fine but I do shudder to think at what she'd be like with the average toy dog life. 

I get when people say leadership because that's exactly what some dogs need. But somehow leadership now means alpha rolling and stuff. :/ 

I don't think it's always about breed- hey our BC cross and our last sheltie were both dunces without an ounce of any kind of thought and Mia is way way sharper than any other pap I've met- but some breeds you should count on finding that kind of temperament more often. And in some certain bodies- large and powerful- it can be dangerous.

TLDR: Mia doesn't need extra rules compared to Summer because she's 'more dominant' but rather that if you don't give her direction on how to behave in a certain circumstance, she is going to come up with her own 'job' to do.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Ok. I'm going to try to write down my opinion. Lol. I'm not sure how it will come out.*
> 
> I think providing (rigid) structure and exercise is important for some of the sharper, high energy breeds but that's why not all breeds don't work for all people. But that doesn't mean alpha rolling, dragging, kicking, etc. is ok. Just because you own a [tough person breed] doesn't justify using an outdated technique.
> 
> ...


I rather find the terms "magical" or "insane" mildly offensive. No one insinuated they were magical or special ... Just not for everyone, maybe to some they are "magical or insane". All I ever say is you can't be as lax with rules as yo can with a more "laid back" type dog. Give me an inch ... You know.

That does not mean be abusive, I will admit to using a prong, choker and / or a leash pop here and there, when I was younger I used to be all "show your dog who is boss" and such and you know what? My relationships got a lot more enjoyable for all of us when I let all that to


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> ETA: Cran, I don't mean the comment about more extreme breeds to come off like a um... peeing contest, lol. I just know that our experience informs our opinions and if I had never owned or worked with a dog that was... so MUCH dog, I would probably agree, but my opinions have changed since owning and later working with dogs like these.


I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm not disagreeing that some dogs need more structure or a stronger handler than others. I'm not disagreeing that some dogs are "a lot of dog" compared to others (an ovcharka is not a shih tzu, obviously). I'm saying that you can't just say that X breed always needs X type of training and Y breed always needs Y type of training. A yorkie can be a lot of dog and can require a stronger handler, too. I mean, yeah, it's in a smaller package and won't cause as much damage to a home or a person, but it can still need more work and structure than your average pekingese (or whatever). 

Mostly my hackles just go up when anyone uses breed as an excuse for harsher training, or when people imply that their breed is a special snowflake that learns differently from all other dogs and requires special training techniques. That goes back to my point about how learning theory always applies, because dogs are animals and animals in general respond well to those techniques. Dogs _respond to the basics_ the same way, I said -- I didn't say that all dogs need the exact same amount of structure or leadership. Of course there are some breeds who will be much more likely to need that structure, although it's not confined to those breeds.

(Also, are you assuming that both of my dogs are "easy?" My AKK dislikes strangers, especially children, and is a definite bite risk. He also pushes the boundaries whenever he can. I do a lot of work with him and have been told by knowledgeable breeder/trainer friends that he would have been a disaster in the average home. I get it.)


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I rather find the terms "magical" or "insane" mildly offensive. No one insinuated they were magical or special ... Just not for everyone, maybe to some they are "magical or insane". All I ever say is you can't be as lax with rules as yo can with a more "laid back" type dog. Give me an inch ... You know.
> 
> That does not mean be abusive, I will admit to using a prong, choker and / or a leash pop here and there, when I was younger I used to be all "show your dog who is boss" and such and you know what? My relationships got a lot more enjoyable for all of us when I let all that to


As someone who has owned/grown up an Australian Shepherd who a lot of people wouldn't have tolerated his magicalness, I didn't mean for it to come off as offensive.

People do insinuate that their breed is *special*. Not everyone can own a Aussie/BC/GSD/ACD/Rottie/Pittie/etc. I've had people tell me to my face that I couldn't possibly own a certain breed because I'm a girl/I'm not authoritative enough/I use treats/etc. not saying you guts say those things or that I can own all breeds. I know not all breeds are for me or for everyone.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm not disagreeing that some dogs need more structure or a stronger handler than others. I'm not disagreeing that some dogs are "a lot of dog" compared to others (an ovcharka is not a shih tzu, obviously). I'm saying that you can't just say that X breed always needs X type of training and Y breed always needs Y type of training. A yorkie can be a lot of dog and can require a stronger handler, too. I mean, yeah, it's in a smaller package and won't cause as much damage to a home or a person, but it can still need more work and structure than your average pekingese (or whatever).
> 
> Mostly my hackles just go up when anyone uses breed as an excuse for harsher training, or when people imply that their breed is a special snowflake that learns differently from all other dogs and requires special training techniques. That goes back to my point about how learning theory always applies, because dogs are animals and animals in general respond well to those techniques. Dogs _respond to the basics_ the same way, I said -- I didn't say that all dogs need the exact same amount of structure or leadership.
> 
> (Also, are you assuming that both of my dogs are "easy?" My AKK dislikes strangers, especially children, and is a definite bite risk. He also pushes the boundaries whenever he can. I do a lot of work with him and have been told by knowledgeable breeder/trainer friends that he would have been a disaster in the average home. I get it.)


I ember said anyone's dogs were "easier" then others. There is no easy breed or hard breed, it's more in the dogs personality then breed. I would consider Josefina and Buddy "easy" ACDs , just like there can also be drivy Pap's ... Actually the majority of Pap's I have met are like ... Little BCs xD


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm not disagreeing that some dogs need more structure or a stronger handler than others. I'm not disagreeing that some dogs are "a lot of dog" compared to others (an ovcharka is not a shih tzu, obviously). I'm saying that you can't just say that X breed always needs X type of training and Y breed always needs Y type of training. A yorkie can be a lot of dog and can require a stronger handler, too. I mean, yeah, it's in a smaller package and won't cause as much damage to a home or a person, but it can still need more work and structure than your average pekingese (or whatever).
> 
> Mostly my hackles just go up when anyone uses breed as an excuse for harsher training, or when people imply that their breed is a special snowflake that learns differently from all other dogs and requires special training techniques. That goes back to my point about how learning theory always applies, because dogs are animals and animals in general respond well to those techniques. Dogs _respond to the basics_ the same way, I said -- I didn't say that all dogs need the exact same amount of structure or leadership. Of course there are some breeds who will be much more likely to need that structure, although it's not confined to those breeds.





Crantastic said:


> That's not even a "some breeds" thing, though. We recommend stopping play or leaving the room when a puppy of any breed won't stop nipping. I've recommended NILIF to people with all kinds of breeds. *Dogs are dogs, really. *Some push the boundaries more, some are more forgiving of mistakes, some pick up on our cues more easily than others... but they all respond to the basics the same way. There's a reason that these techniques are used for training everything from mice to chickens to hyenas to whales.


*shrug* The above is what I read and nothing more. "Some breeds" definitely do need this more than others and it can very much be a "some breeds" thing in my experience. Individuals can vary but there are some pretty distinct trends in breeds. You didn't refer to harsh training methods at all in your initial comment if that's what you actually meant.




Crantastic said:


> *(Also, are you assuming that both of my dogs are "easy?"* My AKK dislikes strangers, especially children, and is a definite bite risk. He also pushes the boundaries whenever he can. I do a lot of work with him and have been told by knowledgeable breeder/trainer friends that he would have been a disaster in the average home. I get it.)


No. 

However, I do feel there is a huge difference when it comes to a dog that size vs. a dog 50 lb or over. Personally I the feel the realities of living with a large dog with potential aggression issues are pretty vastly different IME and I say that having dealt with similar issues in dogs of varying sizes. In theory it's all the same; in reality it can be shockingly different.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I do get annoyed sometimes by people who assume I can't handle certain breeds because my dogs are paps. I do know my limitations for sure and there are some breeds I don't think I could handle or wouldn't want to. But seriously i've gotten way more snide remarks about breeds I either have owned or would gladly own since getting the papillons. Recently in real life someone made a comment about how much more difficult and more awesome of a dog owner you have to be to own their breed than mine and obviously people with my breed are not worthy of such driven dogs, etc etc etc because theirs is a herding breed (they didn't know I'd had almost all herders before the papillons!).

It drives me up. the. wall.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I do get annoyed sometimes by people who assume I can't handle certain breeds because my dogs are paps. I do know my limitations for sure and there are some breeds I don't think I could handle or wouldn't want to. But seriously i've gotten way more snide remarks about breeds I either have owned or would gladly own since getting the papillons. Recently in real life someone made a comment about how much more difficult and more awesome of a dog owner you have to be to own their breed than mine and obviously people with my breed are not worthy of such driven dogs, etc etc etc because theirs is a herding breed (they didn't know I'd had almost all herders before the papillons!).
> 
> It drives me up. the. wall.


Well, I hope it's clear that's NOT what I'm saying. Honestly I'm not presuming to know anything about anybody's capabilities, just saying that from personal experience it can be quite the culture shock if you've never dealt with such issues in a sizable dog. But I know you've had bigger dogs (and so has Cran, if I remember). I am also pretty sure that even those who've only had smaller dogs would gladly rise to the challenge - I'm just pointing out that it might _be_ a challenge at first, lol. And one that could alter your way of thinking if you've never been there before, that's all.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> *shrug* The above is what I read and nothing more. "Some breeds" definitely do need this more than others and it can very much be a "some breeds" thing in my experience. Individuals can vary but there are some pretty distinct trends in breeds. You didn't refer to harsh training methods at all in your initial comment if that's what you actually meant.


My "some breeds" comment was in regards to:



> It's more of a "ok fine if you don't want to behave then you get to go to time out and you have no fun AT ALL and we have fun without you".


That is not a technique that one would only use on "tough" breeds. That is a technique we suggest to everyone here who has a problem with nipping puppies (leave the room so that puppy learns that fun stops when he bites).


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I do get annoyed sometimes by people who assume I can't handle certain breeds because my dogs are paps. I do know my limitations for sure and there are some breeds I don't think I could handle or wouldn't want to. But seriously i've gotten way more snide remarks about breeds I either have owned or would gladly own since getting the papillons. Recently in real life someone made a comment about how much more difficult and more awesome of a dog owner you have to be to own their breed than mine and obviously people with my breed are not worthy of such driven dogs, etc etc etc because theirs is a herding breed (they didn't know I'd had almost all herders before the papillons!).
> 
> It drives me up. the. wall.


I've gotten remarks like that. Not from anyone here but in person. I'd say something about my husky mix to someone and they'd say "Oh! But he's just a mix so..." So what. That doesn't make his behaviors any less of a problem. "Oh! You've a small dog so..." So any accomplishments we make are lesser. Yay.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh no, I was just talking in general. I get annoyed when people see 'Oh papillons! You must be clueless!' 

*sigh*

I wouldn't want a dog like Mia in a 60+ lb body. I KNOW that without a doubt. There would be a lot more potential for trouble and danger. I don't think anyone is saying issues in a little dog are the same potential for disaster as the same issues in a bigger dog. But more that... issues can occur in both a big dog or a little dog.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> I've gotten remarks like that. Not from anyone here but in person. I'd say something about my husky mix to someone and they'd say "Oh! But he's just a mix so..." So what. That doesn't make his behaviors any less of a problem. "Oh! You've a small dog so..." So any accomplishments we make are lesser. Yay.


LOL he's just a mix so... so... um.... What?! What kind of sense does that make? 

And some things are actually much, much harder to train small dogs to IME. Size logistics, lol. It's a thing. It goes both ways for sure.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

RabbleFox said:


> I've gotten remarks like that. Not from anyone here but in person. I'd say something about my husky mix to someone and they'd say "Oh! But he's just a mix so..." So what. That doesn't make his behaviors any less of a problem. "Oh! You've a small dog so..." So any accomplishments we make are lesser. Yay.


Yeah, I get that impression from people, too. "Oh, your dogs are little, so they must be easy to manage." Sure, I can pick Crystal up and walk away if she decides she wants to fight a strange dog, and I can easily hold Casper back if he lunges at a small child at the park, but the techniques I use to deal with these issues are the same as they would be for larger breeds. The only thing that's easier is physically controlling them.

(Edited to clarify that Casper has only lunged at small children at a park twice. The first time took me by total surprise -- up until then he'd just avoided them -- and the second time he managed to lunge around me at at the kid and grab her overalls strap. He is not allowed that close to children anymore.)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I had issues last night with pivot. All the other people could stand and reach their dogs and I had to do the whole thing on my knees.  

One day I will have a dog to train competitively that I can reach while standing up. That's my goal. 

What bothers me (and this is getting totally OT) is the assumption you've done less or do less because your dog is small or an 'easy' breed. I see it a lot. With the said person mentioned above they didn't mean it maliciously, I know. But you see a lot of it particularly with certain breed types... it's funny when you've already owned said breed types then are deemed 'unworthy' based on current type of dog. It's also funny to me because Mia has been so much more work than any of my other dogs yet it's wrapped in a cute fluffy tiny package so people don't believe you.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> The only thing that's easier is physically controlling them.


Right! Absolutely!I guess my point is that this can be a big, BIG difference though. Not one to be discounted as some minor difference IME.

Just like some things are actually much harder with a small dog - much, much harder IME!

ETA: Laur, I hear you, oh man. Keeva... and heeling.... my back. My knees. OW. lol

I also think I find working on stranger issues harder with smaller dogs in many ways. It's harder to feel safe when you're so little and people don't respect your space. Not fair.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> LOL he's just a mix so... so... um.... What?! What kind of sense does that make?
> 
> And some things are actually much, much harder to train small dogs to IME. Size logistics, lol. It's a thing. It goes both ways for sure.


Someone was asking me what their husky would like. I said my husky mix loves bully sticks and he responded "Well mine is purebred so..." So your dog doesn't like dried up boy bull parts? Lol. I was speaking wit a friend about Bae's crating issues. "Well he is a mix so..." So he automatically messed up and I can't fix it. Mmk. Lol

For any who has never tried to train something lower to the ground: oh my aching back. I need a clicker stick!


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## Biddity (Jan 18, 2014)

I like his general concept about dogs requiring exercise and discipline before affection.
I think his show is okay as long as the watcher knows and understands that these are very special cases and probably do not apply to their own dog. Unless it's an episode of something pretty harmless, for eg one episode where someone's dog didn't want to enter the travel bag. CM used positive reinforcement(although I don't think he mentioned those exact words) to get the dog used to and like the crate, if my memory serves. Normal people should be able to do that.
Often I think (not finger-pointing at dogforums users, but online comments and such) people focus too much on the very bad cases where CM uses harsh things like prong collars or near-violent actions etc etc when we don't really know what that dog is like behind the scenes. I've watched some of his milder episodes(which coincidentally were less entertaining and had less views.. hmm) and he doesn't do much of that.
But after watching a lot of his episodes, my conclusion is that there isn't much practical takeaway for the general dog-owner from any of his entertainment mediums. There are concepts but no real step-by-steps. What I found useful was this article on his webpage on how to introduce a dog to your home, which was basically saying exercise the dog a a lot so he's calm when he enters the house. Then again, such general tips aren't unique to the 'dog whisperer' alone, so..
Something I thought that could be noted of the way he uses the word 'dominance' is that for one thing, it's very scoffed at, but perhaps because people seem to associate the word with like, total control and ownership and blabla. To me, I never got that impression, my thoughts of the whole 'dominance' issue was that in any relationship, any at all, there is always a submissive and dominant person in the sense that someone will take charge. It doesn't have to be in a negative or forceful way. For eg, friends deciding on a meet-up. The first person to suggest a place and/or organize the thing would be the 'dominant' one in that sense, because she's leading/taking charge. In much the same way, I feel that it is inevitable in a dog-person relationship because the person has to lead(since its a people-oriented world). Thus, the person has to become the 'dominant' one, and if the dog tries to take charge, it's seen as being 'dominant'. the dog doesn't mean to force the person to do something or any of that negative connotation usually associated with the word, but the dog wants to do what it wants to do in a situation where what it wants to do is not appropriate (in a human-oriented world). 
Conclusion: I think people placed too much emphasis on the word 'dominant' and twisted it around(the people who preached CM, and then the people who opposed these people, which led them to CM), when maybe CM just isn't very good at english.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Right! Absolutely!I guess my point is that this can be a big, BIG difference though. Not one to be discounted as some minor difference IME.
> 
> Just like some things are actually much harder with a small dog - much, much harder IME!
> 
> ...


"CAN I PICK HIM UP?!" *grabby hands from a 12 year old* No. Do not go anywhere near him. 

Mer doesn't like kids in his face. And his teeth will tell you no.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Plus if you lean over my dogs, they instinctively move away at warp speed. They know I'm a clutz and know to GET OUTTA THE WAY! So anything involving them staying and me moving my feet anywhere near them... yeah... they don't trust me enough for it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> Right! Absolutely!I guess my point is that this can be a big, BIG difference though. Not one to be discounted as some minor difference IME.


Yeah, I think we got our messages mixed up at some point, heh. I agree that it's not a minor difference. However, it's less of a training methods difference and more of a physical handling difference, if that makes sense? I can pick up my papillon and walk away; I couldn't pick up a malinois. But I'd use the same training techniques with both to try to change their associations with whatever was bothering them.

I don't know. I'm having trouble explaining. But I just wanted to clarify that when I say "dogs are dogs," I mean that the same basic positive techniques will work on pretty much any dog (or any animal, for that matter). I don't mean that malinois, ACDs, labs, ovcharkas, shih tzu, and papillons are all exactly the same and need the exact same amount of structure or leadership or physical management, or that if someone can train a dog, they should jump to a hyena next.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Yeah, I think we got our messages mixed up at some point, heh. I agree that it's not a minor difference. However, it's less of a training methods difference and more of a physical handling difference, if that makes sense? I can pick up my papillon and walk away; I couldn't pick up a malinois. But I'd use the same training techniques with both to try to change their associations with whatever was bothering them.


Ah but see.. it's easy to think that (you would use the same techniques) without having been there. I'm not suggesting you would use compulsion but it would probably affect your approach more than you realize. The stakes become much higher and the management becomes more difficult. 

It's true that in _theory_ it's all the same. I just haven't seen it always pan out that way in reality, personally.

I dunno, sorry, I'm certainly no expert at all. I'm just relaying what my experience has been. I guess I see a wide gap between theory and reality in dog training pretty frequently - not just on this subject but in many ways.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Emily1188 said:


> I dunno, sorry, I'm certainly no expert at all. I'm just relaying what my experience has been. I guess I see a wide gap between theory and reality in dog training pretty frequently - not just on this subject but in many ways.


Me too. Especially the more training I see in person with more dogs/types of dogs. I've been having this kind of discussion with myself lately. I'm sure it will change the more dogs and training I get under my belt too. 

Ironically it was my easy dog that made me re-evaluate my stance on P+.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> Ah but see.. it's easy to think that (you would use the same techniques) without having been there. I'm not suggesting you would use compulsion but it would probably affect your approach more than you realize. The stakes become much higher and the management becomes more difficult.


Are we talking "in the instant that my dog decides it wants to lunge at another dog or a child," or are we talking LAT/BAT stuff from a safe distance? Because the former is more reaction than training, I think. The latter is what I mean when I say that dogs learn the same way.

Also, I don't use entirely positive techniques, even with small dogs. It probably sounds like I do sometimes, but that's because (as others have mentioned in this thread) I'm never going to advise anything but positive techniques to strangers on a dog forum because I don't want them to hurt their dogs/get hurt by their dogs.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Are we talking "in the instant that my dog decides it wants to lunge at another dog or a child," or are we talking LAT/BAT stuff from a safe distance? Because the former is more reaction than training, I think. The latter is what I mean when I say that dogs learn the same way.
> 
> Also, I don't use entirely positive techniques, even with small dogs. It probably sounds like I do sometimes, but that's because (as others have mentioned in this thread) I'm never going to advise anything but positive techniques to strangers on a dog forum because I don't want them to hurt their dogs/get hurt by their dogs.


I'm talking about both management aspects and the holistic approach taken to modifying behavior. For what it's worth, I haven't found that all breeds and individuals "react" (such a grey term) the same way and for the same reasons, and I haven't found that all techniques work with equal efficacy for all breeds and all individuals. I have found that for certain dogs (and you find these dogs far more in certain breeds, sometimes almost universally it seems) benefit from different approaches depending on their temperament. Again this isn't about +R or not, but rather the perspective you approach it with.

I do firmly believe in a holistic approach to B-mod and have gotten the most mileage out of it for clients. That means it's not enough for me to say, oh just do LAT, just feed him when he looks at X, etc. Theory tells us you can re-program dogs like computers; reality has taught me it's never that simple with a living thing. So for me understanding the breed type and individual dog's motivations are extremely important and I don't feel the claim that LAT, BAT and other acronyms (lol) will always have the same effectiveness across the board is at all accurate. It relates not to the science behind the techniques (which is sound) but the reality of applying them and how easily they "translate" for the dog.

ETA: There is an art to making the science of b-mod translate into something the dog can understand and benefit from - and that's where the difference lies IME. And breed can definitely play a part in that.

ETA II: Some people honestly don't believe in a holistic approach that addresses the dog's motivations and overall lifestyle. I can accept that but I don't agree with it at all. Personal preference, I guess.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My weigh in on the small/large dog thing and why I get so frustrated is this, basically:

Larger dogs can be harder to MANAGE - not harder to train. Individual dogs or breeds can be easier or harder to train, but that is not size dependent, at all - and my idea of easier or harder may not be someone else's. I have a heck of a time with happy-go-lucky, exuberant dogs like labs and spaniels -- I have trouble communicating effectively with them. I do not have this issue with dogs who are traditionally considered 'harder' dogs - because I *get* them. 

And in general I get really, really offended when someone crosses the line from saying 'this breed may not be for everyone because it possesses X, Y, or Z trait and some people have trouble with that' to 'My dog is an ACD/Mal/BC/SERIOUS dog and you have to be X, Y, and or Z to own such a dog and most people aren't and those that are are the experienced and ELITE OF DOG OWNERS'.

That attitude? Just ticks me right the heck off and makes me check out. It's arrogant, snotty, and frankly insulting and demeaning to other people. So, yeah. I mock people who come across that way a little. Because it's dumb.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Larger dogs can be harder to MANAGE - not harder to train. Individual dogs or breeds can be easier or harder to train, but that is not size dependent, at all - and my idea of easier or harder may not be someone else's.


Yeah, that.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

What I'm referring to has definitely strayed from size based to more breed/individual based, sorry. lol. Veering off topic.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Emily1188 said:


> I'm talking about both management aspects and the holistic approach taken to modifying behavior. For what it's worth, I haven't found that all breeds and individuals "react" (such a grey term) the same way and for the same reasons, and I haven't found that all techniques work with equal efficacy for all breeds and all individuals. I have found that for certain dogs (and you find these dogs far more in certain breeds, sometimes almost universally it seems) benefit from different approaches depending on their temperament. Again this isn't about +R or not, but rather the perspective you approach it with.
> 
> I do firmly believe in a holistic approach to B-mod and have gotten the most mileage out of it for clients. That means it's not enough for me to say, oh just do LAT, just feed him when he looks at X, etc. Theory tells us you can re-program dogs like computers; reality has taught me it's never that simple with a living thing. So for me understanding the breed type and individual dog's motivations are extremely important and I don't feel the claim that LAT, BAT and other acronyms (lol) will always have the same effectiveness across the board is at all accurate. It relates not to the science behind the techniques (which is sound) but the reality of applying them and how easily they "translate" for the dog.
> 
> ...


Definitely agree 100%.

I am thinking about the countless YEARS of frustration dealing with Summer's barking problem. I spent a lot of time with some fantastic trainers who did what they do with +R and it just never worked. I think theoretically it could have but it was too impossible to set up the situation well in real life. It was so rewarding for her to bark and bark and bark.

I actually was called lazy for deciding to try +P. Not here but elsewhere. It was funny to me because 6 years and 5 trainers later and it's lazy? But obviously I was being lazy and just not implementing things right.... Is it worth years and years of slow desensitization when you could just end it with one correction? It's been better for me, better for Summer who is not working herself into a frenzy, better for the poor souls who have to be around her.

So while it's nice to say 'wait them out and reward the silent moments'... it didn't work with my dog. Maybe that's lazy training but that's a lot of decent to very successful trainers failing with her.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

CptJack said:


> My weigh in on the small/large dog thing and why I get so frustrated is this, basically:
> 
> Larger dogs can be harder to MANAGE - not harder to train. Individual dogs or breeds can be easier or harder to train, but that is not size dependent, at all - and my idea of easier or harder may not be someone else's. I have a heck of a time with happy-go-lucky, exuberant dogs like labs and spaniels -- I have trouble communicating effectively with them. I do not have this issue with dogs who are traditionally considered 'harder' dogs - because I *get* them.
> 
> ...


This goes two ways though. How would you like being told you're ignorant, lazy, cruel, and impatient for using a "shock collar" when your dog has an issue that is of a magnitude most people have never and will never deal with? It sucks. It's not inherently breed specific but it is specific to a certain type of dog that lies on one extreme of a given spectrum. And will happen in certain breeds more than others, certainly. People telling me I could use Premack - um no, no. No chasing of the prey can be allowed, not at all, or we will start all over again. Or just do LAT with squirrels - right, if we could even SEE a squirrel and remain under threshold, that might work. 

And frankly I've had a lot of interactions that have impressed upon me that some people do not understand this kind of dog. I was discussing some tugging style problems on another forum and got, "Well why don't you just teach a simple drop it?" haha, you come over here and teach a "simple" drop it. It ain't so simple for this dog who lives to grip. Or, "Why don't you reshape her tugging style with food?" Uh this dog doesn't take food around a tug... Trying to feed her to modify her tugging style wouldn't even make sense in her mind. Those people meant well but had no frame of reference for what I was dealing with at all.

It doesn't make "this kind of dog" better than others, just different (better for what?? I'd have to ask). It might not be popular to say but it's true IME. And I've learned to assume it's true about a lot of other breeds and types that are selected to have more extreme traits. (The working bred LGD come to mind for some reason, but it applies all sorts of ways, really). The fact there are some types, breeds, and individuals that are more extreme in behavior than the vast majority of dogs that people keep as pets. And it does get really hard hearing what you "should" do and what "should" be perfectly simple from people who very likely have no frame of reference. 

I dislike the elitist attitude and have been absolutely furious at it before, yes, from "Mal people" no less. I still don't usually agree with "them" even owning a crazy Malinois, but I do see where they're coming from more often now. I do not believe my breed isn't for anyone or that only I can handle it (far from it). But yeah, it does get old hearing I should be able to train my Mal "just like any other dog" when no, she DOESN'T act "just like any other dog" and wasn't bred just to act like any other dog. If that's not PC to say, well... sorry I'm not sorry? lol And she isn't the only dog and Malinois are hardly the only breed or type like that. Realistically, every type, breed, and individual carries their own challenges but there are distinct trends in breeds and bloodlines.

_No_ breed is "magical" but some breeds are selected for a more extreme set of behaviors that can affect the realities of training and living with them. I don't feel any need to dance around that fact.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> This goes two ways though. How would you like being told you're ignorant, lazy, cruel, and impatient for using a "shock collar" when your dog has an issue that is of a magnitude most people have never and will never deal with? It sucks. It's not inherently breed specific but it is specific to a certain type of dog that lies on one extreme of a given spectrum. And will happen in certain breeds more than others, certainly. People telling me I could use Premack - um no, no. No chasing of the prey can be allowed, not at all, or we will start all over again. Or just do LAT with squirrels - right, if we could even SEE a squirrel and remain under threshold, that might work.
> 
> And frankly I've had a lot of interactions that have impressed upon me that some people do not understand this kind of dog. I was discussing some tugging style problems on another forum and got, "Well why don't you just teach a simple drop it?" haha, you come over here and teach a "simple" drop it. It ain't so simple for this dog who lives to grip. Or, "Why don't you reshape her tugging style with food?" Uh this dog doesn't take food around a tug... Trying to feed her to modify her tugging style wouldn't even make sense in her mind. Those people meant well but had no frame of reference for what I was dealing with at all.
> 
> ...



But I USE a shock collar and a prong collar. I admittedly use the prong on the big dog (or did, we've phased it out) because I couldn't physically control him otherwise. I use the shock collar on the Boston regularly and have used it at a HIGH setting on ALL the dogs, including the thirteen pound one. That's not what I'm talking about at all. That's not even what I alluded to - or at least not what I was trying to allude to. In fact it's kind of irrelevant to everything, here, from the 'It's not the size, it's the dog and behavior' point of view. Yes, bigger means harder ot manage and may sometimes mean things have to be done you could wait out with a smaller dog -

but that's rare and kind of irrelevant. I don't NOT use a method (or use it) based on the size of the dog and when you start saying 'My dog is an acd and I HAVE TO BECAUSE IT"S AN ACD AND ACDS AREN"T LIKE OTHER DOGS". 

No. Just no.

*That* is what I'm referring to, here.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Growing weary of all the CM bashing :deadhorse:,
so I don't mind taking this thread off topic... :whoo:





CptJack said:


> ... I get really, really offended when someone crosses the line from saying 'this breed may not be for everyone because it possesses X, Y, or Z trait ...



Why take offence, Cpt??? 

I don't think it's a statement of worth or value (or lack thereof) 
of any given breed,
but it does seem to be blatantly obvious ...

The _"Caucasian Ovcharka in Suburbia - The Unfolding Story"_ thread 
comes immediately to mind.

There is no single breed that is "_for everyone_".
Aesthetics aside, it's often the extremes in drive and/or temperament
which attract certain people to certain breeds.
And is it not those same extremes of drive and/or temperament
which makes said breeds 
"_not be for everyone_" !?!


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

CptJack said:


> But I USE a shock collar and a prong collar. I admittedly use the prong on the big dog (or did, we've phased it out) because I couldn't physically control him otherwise. I use the shock collar on the Boston regularly and have used it at a HIGH setting on ALL the dogs, including the thirteen pound one. That's not what I'm talking about at all. That's not even what I alluded to - or at least not what I was trying to allude to. In fact it's kind of irrelevant to everything, here, from the 'It's not the size, it's the dog and behavior' point of view. Yes, bigger means harder ot manage and may sometimes mean things have to be done you could wait out with a smaller dog -
> 
> but that's rare and kind of irrelevant. I don't NOT use a method (or use it) based on the size of the dog and when you start saying 'My dog is an acd and I HAVE TO BECAUSE IT"S AN ACD AND ACDS AREN"T LIKE OTHER DOGS".
> 
> ...


I'm confused.The training tool mentioned was but an example. Did you read my whole posts and my other examples, or just stop at the mention of training tools? That was just one of many examples that I offered of people who have tried to make me feel silly and less than because dog should be trained "like any other dog" when the bottom line is that no, she does not act like any other dog. 

To that, I say "No. Just no."


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

prntmkr said:


> Growing weary of all the CM bashing :deadhorse:,
> so I don't mind taking this thread off topic... :whoo:
> 
> 
> ...


Ah. Every breed has its ups and downs and 'this dog may not fit your lifestyle or temperament and I know what it is' than 'these dogs are super hard dogs to own and no one but super experienced and elite dog owners should own them regardless of the person's temperament, personality, or lifestyle, or resources, or mentors, or willingness'.

One of those is something we say every day and is useful and helpful. It's advise.

The other one is an owner using their dog for an ego trip and is anything but helpful - and makes them look (to me) like an utter fool.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Ah. Every breed has its ups and downs and 'this dog may not fit your lifestyle or temperament and I know what it is' than 'these dogs are super hard dogs to own and no one but super experienced and elite dog owners should own them regardless of the person's temperament, personality, or lifestyle, or resources, or mentors, or willingness'.
> 
> One of those is something we say every day and is useful and helpful. It's advise.
> 
> The other one is an owner using their dog for an ego trip and is anything but helpful - and makes them look (to me) like an utter fool.





Emily1188 said:


> I'm confused.The training tool mentioned was but an example. Did you read my whole posts and my other examples, or just stop at the mention of training tools? That was just one of many examples that I offered of people who have tried to make me feel silly and less than because dog should be trained "like any other dog" when the bottom line is that no, she does not act like any other dog.
> 
> To that, I say "No. Just no."


Sorry, I was mobile. It cut off.

And sure. Your dog needs to be trained like her. She may need to be trained like other dogs like her.

but I promise you a Mal does not possess one single trait that is not present, though possibly in different combinations, in other breeds. I also promise you that she is not exactly like every other mal in existence - though obviously breed traits do matter.

EVERY dog breed has unique traits. EVERY dog has them as an individual. EVERY dog owner is going to have to adapt and respond to their dog to be able to train it effectively. There are some dogs that don't fit into some homes, lives, and lifestyles. Those are not the same group of dogs, regardless of the home, lifestyle, and circumstance of the people who own them. 

I'm not saying dog breed doesn't matter.

I'm saying being able to own a breed with particular traits does not make someone a better owner, a better trainer, or a better anything else - and that's the point I start objecting. What's difficult, easy, fits, or doesn't fit is down to the mesh between owner and dog. Not the dog breed. I mean honestly if I gave you a dog who shut down if you said 'nope' to it, would you find it easier to train than a dog who could take a correction and learn from it? 

The other thing is while not every method is going to work for every dog or owner, or be needed by every dog, they're the *same sets of behavior modification tools* to choose from.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I do think it's hard to tread that line of careful warning vs 'hey look at me I'm so great!' I am looking into a breed that is considered pretty difficult by a lot of standards. If you follow my threads it's probably pretty obvious which one it is. The breeders have been very straightforward and very realistic but then there's some who act like the breed is not suited for ANYONE in the world except I guess the people who already own them? I'm not sure. I have to think for the most part these people probably mean well and aren't trying to ego trip and are just trying to make sure someone has done their research. I do think some people enjoy ego-tripping and owning a dog breed that no one else can own (according to them). Or maybe they just get jaded after seeing so many bad situations.

I spend enough time around belgians every week (fuzzy though!) to see why many people wouldn't want them or why they'd be bad in a lot of hands.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

CptJack said:


> but I promise you a Mal does not possess one single trait that is not present, though possibly in different combinations, in other breeds. I also promise you that she is not exactly like every other mal in existence - though obviously breed traits do matter.


All very true! However, it's worth noting, I think, that those with Malinois were very quickly able to deliver practical, sensible advice and had an immediate grasp on the issues I was describing. Those without... were not and never seemed to quite understand what the issue really was. I'm sure there's a similar trend in other breeds as well, where the best way to understand how to handle them is to own them. Part of the reason I like going to my PSA club is just to be around ppl who understand what I'm dealing with in day to day life.

You're right, though, of course, that I would not set my training methods in stone based on breed, nor would I ignore the individual traits of any given dog in favor of breed.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I do think it's hard to tread that line of careful warning vs 'hey look at me I'm so great!' I am looking into a breed that is considered pretty difficult by a lot of standards. If you follow my threads it's probably pretty obvious which one it is. The breeders have been very straightforward and very realistic but then there's some who act like the breed is not suited for ANYONE in the world except I guess the people who already own them? I'm not sure. I have to think for the most part these people probably mean well and aren't trying to ego trip and are just trying to make sure someone has done their research. I do think some people enjoy ego-tripping and owning a dog breed that no one else can own (according to them). Or maybe they just get jaded after seeing so many bad situations.
> 
> I spend enough time around belgians every week (fuzzy though!) to see why many people wouldn't want them or why they'd be bad in a lot of hands.


Well you know, NO ONE is allowed to have Mals until you already have one. *eye roll* That seems to be a universal trend.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Or border collies or pyrsheps ha.

Or wait no, with pyrsheps NO ONE should ever like them. They're horrible horrible dogs and if you like yours then well...


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Or border collies or pyrsheps ha.
> 
> Or wait no, with pyrsheps NO ONE should ever like them. They're horrible horrible dogs and if you like yours then well...


LOL! 

If you DON'T get a Pyrshep I'll be so mad at you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I do think it's hard to tread that line of careful warning vs 'hey look at me I'm so great!' I am looking into a breed that is considered pretty difficult by a lot of standards. If you follow my threads it's probably pretty obvious which one it is. The breeders have been very straightforward and very realistic but then there's some who act like the breed is not suited for ANYONE in the world except I guess the people who already own them? I'm not sure. I have to think for the most part these people probably mean well and aren't trying to ego trip and are just trying to make sure someone has done their research. I do think some people enjoy ego-tripping and owning a dog breed that no one else can own (according to them). Or maybe they just get jaded after seeing so many bad situations.
> 
> I spend enough time around belgians every week (fuzzy though!) to see why many people wouldn't want them or why they'd be bad in a lot of hands.



Yeah. This is pretty much what I was trying (and failing) to get across.

And that's pretty much exactly the point where I get frustrated and too often start getting snarky.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Emily1188 said:


> LOL!
> 
> If you DON'T get a Pyrshep I'll be so mad at you.


Oh it's happening. Next dog or the one after depending on timing.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Oh it's happening. Next dog or the one after depending on timing.


YAY!!! I really think they're perfect for you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have not brought it up to anyone I train with LOL. I'm already anticipating the response. But they're all belgian people so hopefully they'll be better about it.

I think it'll be fantastic. And if I get to go with my favorite breeder, she's seriously the best breeder I've ever talked to.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

I have to jump in here for a moment. I've read several shock collar threads. I was highly against them because I could never imagine a senerio where you couldn't train with other methods. I was one of those people who thought if you used a shock collar you were lazy. Emily has posted in many of the shock collar threads. I knew she used one. I've also heard her say many times I don't use one because I have a Mal. I use one because of my limitations as a handler. I've never heard her say once in any thread in any forum that she needs to use one because her dog is so special there is no other way. Except her dog really is that special. It's not because she's a Mal. It made me open my mind. It made me keep reading. I 100% agree when Emily says most people aren't going to understand a dog with the kind of drive Blossom has. Heck I'm a dog trainer and around 10 to 20 dogs a week. I used to volunteer at a shelter. I've been around a lot of dogs as many as you have. How many of you guys have encountered dogs or tried to problem slove a dog going through a plate glass window after a stupid squirrel? I mean squirrels aren't exactly a novelty. How many of you guys have tried to problem solve a dog bending a metal door frame because of a squirrel? I've had many talks with Emily. Before I had talked to her, before I knew Blossom's story I couldn't have fathomed that. I can with 100% certianty say I'd try a shock collar. Or I wouldn't and the dog couldn't live safely in my home. If I chose option B the dog would probably be put down because how many people are going to want a dog who is doing that kind of damage to the home. I know what kind of advice I would have given. It would have been 100% the wrong advice.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> I have to jump in here for a moment. I've read several shock collar threads. I was highly against them because I could never imagine a senerio where you couldn't train with other methods. I was one of those people who thought if you used a shock collar you were lazy. Emily has posted in many of the shock collar threads. I knew she used one. I've also heard her say many times I don't use one because I have a Mal. I use one because of my limitations as a handler. I've never heard her say once in any thread in any forum that she needs to use one because her dog is so special there is no other way. Except her dog really is that special. It's not because she's a Mal. It made me open my mind. It made me keep reading. I 100% agree when Emily says most people aren't going to understand a dog with the kind of drive Blossom has. Heck I'm a dog trainer and around 10 to 20 dogs a week. I used to volunteer at a shelter. I've been around a lot of dogs as many as you have. How many of you guys have encountered dogs or tried to problem slove a dog going through a plate glass window after a stupid squirrel? I mean squirrels aren't exactly a novelty. How many of you guys have tried to problem solve a dog bending a metal door frame because of a squirrel? I've had many talks with Emily. Before I had talked to her, before I knew Blossom's story I couldn't have fathomed that. I can with 100% certianty say I'd try a shock collar. Or I wouldn't and the dog couldn't live safely in my home. If I chose option B the dog would probably be put down because how many people are going to want a dog who is doing that kind of damage to the home. I know what kind of advice I would have given. It would have been 100% the wrong advice.



I don't think a single person involved in this discussion is anti-shock collar in all situations or a purely positive trainer. I also think we've all pretty much admitted that we would never advise someone here to use a shock collar. Presented with any situation online there are two options (for me)
Suggest the positive method because it wont' get the owner or dog hurt if inappropriately applied by a novice
Or
Suggest a trainer.

I am not telling someone how to use punishment, especially things like shock and prong collars, online. And I use BOTH.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> I have to jump in here for a moment. I've read several shock collar threads. I was highly against them because I could never imagine a senerio where you couldn't train with other methods. I was one of those people who thought if you used a shock collar you were lazy. Emily has posted in many of the shock collar threads. I knew she used one. I've also heard her say many times I don't use one because I have a Mal. I use one because of my limitations as a handler. I've never heard her say once in any thread in any forum that she needs to use one because her dog is so special there is no other way. Except her dog really is that special. It's not because she's a Mal. It made me open my mind. It made me keep reading. I 100% agree when Emily says most people aren't going to understand a dog with the kind of drive Blossom has. Heck I'm a dog trainer and around 10 to 20 dogs a week. I used to volunteer at a shelter. I've been around a lot of dogs as many as you have. How many of you guys have encountered dogs or tried to problem slove a dog going through a plate glass window after a stupid squirrel? I mean squirrels aren't exactly a novelty. How many of you guys have tried to problem solve a dog bending a metal door frame because of a squirrel? I've had many talks with Emily. Before I had talked to her, before I knew Blossom's story I couldn't have fathomed that. I can with 100% certianty say I'd try a shock collar. Or I wouldn't and the dog couldn't live safely in my home. If I chose option B the dog would probably be put down because how many people are going to want a dog who is doing that kind of damage to the home. I know what kind of advice I would have given. It would have been 100% the wrong advice.


Thanks Casey, I appreciate the vote of confidence, I really do.  It is hard to communicate the depth and extremity of the problem when it sounds like I'm just saying my dog likes to chase squirrels, LOL. Most dogs like to chase squirrels, it's just that most dogs don't break windows, doors, or scale tall fences over them lol.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I don't think a single person involved in this discussion is anti-shock collar in all situations or a purely positive trainer. I also think we've all pretty much admitted that we would never advise someone here to use a shock collar. Presented with any situation online there are two options (for me)
> Suggest the positive method because it wont' get the owner or dog hurt if inappropriately applied by a novice
> Or
> Suggest a trainer.
> ...


I don't think Casey was suggesting you should tell people how to use such tools, she was just supporting me because we're friends and earlier I described some of the distress I've felt over being told that I could have/should have done it "another way" and was wrong not to. I know we've discussed Blossom's issues in depth and it was responsible in part for changing her perspective on certain tools.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> I don't think Casey was suggesting you should tell people how to use such tools, she was just supporting me because we're friends and earlier I described some of the distress I've felt over being told that I could have/should have done it "another way" and was wrong not to. I know we've discussed Blossom's issues in depth and it was responsible in part for changing her perspective on certain tools.


Ah, sorry. I really have to start either reading all of threads or none of them.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Ah, sorry. I really have to start either reading all of threads or none of them.


LOL nah, it's cool.  Just thought it would help if I provided some context is all.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I don't think a single person involved in this discussion is anti-shock collar in all situations or a purely positive trainer. I also think we've all pretty much admitted that we would never advise someone here to use a shock collar. Presented with any situation online there are two options (for me)
> Suggest the positive method because it wont' get the owner or dog hurt if inappropriately applied by a novice
> Or
> Suggest a trainer.
> ...


I agree. I think my point was more I've never heard Emily say my dog is Mal so I needed to train her this way. Quite the opposite. My other point is not many of us can really understand a dog with this much drive. It's not something most people deal with.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It sucks to be called lazy when you've tried everything you can think of. Totally get it and have been there. I felt bad being called lazy too.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> It sucks to be called lazy when you've tried everything you can think of. Totally get it and have been there. I felt bad being called lazy too.


Let's start a club!

ETA: And Blossom is extreme in that behavior and her degree of drive. But, lest we get too "my super speshul Mellonwah" let it be known that most of the time she's just a "normal dog." It's just that, well... when she's on, she's ON. And stops at nothing.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> It sucks to be called lazy when you've tried everything you can think of. Totally get it and have been there. I felt bad being called lazy too.





Emily1188 said:


> Let's start a club!
> 
> ETA: And Blossom is extreme in that behavior and her degree of drive. But, lest we get too "my super speshul Mellonwah" let it be known that most of the time she's just a "normal dog." It's just that, well... when she's on, she's ON. And stops at nothing.


You both are awesome dog owners! Don't let anyone tell you differently! Who knows I may be a member of lazy dog owners club myself sooner then I think!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Or border collies or pyrsheps ha.
> 
> Or wait no, with pyrsheps NO ONE should ever like them. They're horrible horrible dogs and if you like yours then well...


I got bit twice in about a 30 minute time span by one.... drew a lot of blood both times.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I got bit twice in about a 30 minute time span by one.... drew a lot of blood both times.


I remember you mentioning that before. 

I've met quite a few and overall most were friendly. Some were reserved but no more than any other herder. The first one I met tackled me until I petted her. They are generally one people dogs though.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> My weigh in on the small/large dog thing and why I get so frustrated is this, basically:
> 
> And in general I get really, really offended when someone crosses the line from saying 'this breed may not be for everyone because it possesses X, Y, or Z trait and some people have trouble with that' to 'My dog is an ACD/Mal/BC/SERIOUS dog and you have to be X, Y, and or Z to own such a dog and most people aren't and those that are are the experienced and ELITE OF DOG OWNERS'.
> 
> That attitude? Just ticks me right the heck off and makes me check out. It's arrogant, snotty, and frankly insulting and demeaning to other people. So, yeah. I mock people who come across that way a little. Because it's dumb.


Why? I don't think anyone is saying that XYZ breed is for the "elite" of owners, but it does take a person who is more willing to put in the time to train and exercise the dog then the "average" dog owner is willing to put in.

Sorry but I have a right to make sure ppl who want XYZ breeds to KNOW what they are getting into so more dogs don't end up abandoned in shelters or in the already full rescues, and if that offends some people well, then it offends some people.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I remember you mentioning that before.
> 
> I've met quite a few and overall most were friendly. Some were reserved but no more than any other herder. The first one I met tackled me until I petted her. They are generally one people dogs though.



This one was shy... But I am not knnocking them.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I was told when I was considering a GSD they are not for everyone or inexperienced trainers, but I chose to get Eko even though I've only really owned one other dog before him. I think I made mistakes with him early on but I have found a training style that works with him, a little bit of positive and negative. He is very big and can be hard to handle, and needs lots of exercise but if you put his brain into a small body he could definitely cause some problems. If I made those same mistakes now as I did when he was a puppy there would be trouble. I think even if you are inexperienced if you are dedicated and keep trying until you find something that works, you could handle a lot of different breeds of dog big or small.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> This one was shy... But I am not knnocking them.


I've met one that was pretty spooky. Most weren't. They are definitely not the breed for everyone but I adore them. Will have one one day. They remind me a lot of Mia but on crack.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Sarah~ said:


> I was told when I was considering a GSD they are not for everyone or inexperienced trainers, but I chose to get Eko even though I've only really owned one other dog before him. I think I made mistakes with him early on but I have found a training style that works with him, a little bit of positive and negative. He is very big and can be hard to handle, and needs lots of exercise but if you put his brain into a small body he could definitely cause some problems. If I made those same mistakes now as I did when he was a puppy there would be trouble. I think even if you are inexperienced if you are dedicated and keep trying until you find something that works, you could handle a lot of different breeds of dog big or small.



Its funny.... Because I consider GSD a novice breed. Or at least a breed that is forgving of a novice.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I was told when I was considering a GSD they are not for everyone or inexperienced trainers, but I chose to get Eko even though I've only really owned one other dog before him. I think I made mistakes with him early on but I have found a training style that works with him, a little bit of positive and negative. He is very big and can be hard to handle, and needs lots of exercise but if you put his brain into a small body he could definitely cause some problems. If I made those same mistakes now as I did when he was a puppy there would be trouble. I think even if you are inexperienced if you are dedicated and keep trying until you find something that works, you could handle a lot of different breeds of dog big or small.


I don't think that (in most cases) breed experts (in any breed) just want the best for their breed and really don't mean to be rude, they just don't want to see any bad press on their breed by it falling into the wrong hands.

Hey, I know how it can feel to be told I am not right for a breed or type of dog, a while back I expressed interest in the large mastiff breeds (mainly the Corso). Experts and owners on the other forums I am on as well as the mastiff forum told me that because of my anxiety issues it wouldn't be a good fit ... And the were very honest and cut and dry about it. My knee jerk reaction was to be offended, but then I took a good look at myself and realized hat they were right.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

And just where were you all today when it came time to sedate the 3 year old 90 pound Rottweiler for surgery? There was no alpha rolling that dog into submission. Well, not without being anal, poo'd, and peed on! On top of the dog charging you with snarling snapping jaws. Owner? What owner? The one standing in the corner so afraid of the dog. The owners kept saying well he is just a farm dog and we did not think about socializing him or even teaching him to walk on a leash. Now at the age of 3, they think that by neutering him he will not give them any more problems because he started growling at them. The vet was honest with them at least and told them probably not. I guess they took him to their regular vet and the vet will not even touch the dog. The dog was a bucking bronc just walking on the leash. What worked best for the dog? The less is more advice. Only two people in the room with the dog. I scratched the dog and while the other muzzled the dog. Very gently with little to no pressure we were able to sedate the dog for surgery. Dogs like him with those owners using CM tactics would have resulted in some nasty bites. This dog was not acting out of aggression but out of fear. He was using aggression to hide his fear and a good trainer would know the difference. I have seen people who think that when dogs act like this to gang pile on them and use brut force. The problem is next time the dog will up the ante and put up fight quicker and more force behind it. By using the less restraint on him we were able to do more with him. Hopefully if he comes back (1) it will be my day off (2) that he will be more accepting of us because we did not gang pile on him. I really think that this was the wrong owner for THIS dog. Not BREED but DOG. The next Rottweiler might be a marshmallow in their hands. 

I would not try to train a dog like this dog by watching someone on TV. I would want to hire a trainer and work with a trainer. I just see that if they were to use CM tactics this dog would put someone in the hospital or morgue. 

I also hope that magically the neutering will help them but what the owner and dog need is a competent trainer who will give them sound advice. Alpha rolling this dog might be possible if you are the Swamp Men and not two scared humans that were trying to become wall tile in the exam room.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> And just where were you all today when it came time to sedate the 3 year old 90 pound Rottweiler for surgery? There was no alpha rolling that dog into submission. Well, not without being anal, poo'd, and peed on! On top of the dog charging you with snarling snapping jaws. Owner? What owner? The one standing in the corner so afraid of the dog. The owners kept saying well he is just a farm dog and we did not think about socializing him or even teaching him to walk on a leash. Now at the age of 3, they think that by neutering him he will not give them any more problems because he started growling at them. The vet was honest with them at least and told them probably not. I guess they took him to their regular vet and the vet will not even touch the dog. The dog was a bucking bronc just walking on the leash. What worked best for the dog? The less is more advice. Only two people in the room with the dog. I scratched the dog and while the other muzzled the dog. Very gently with little to no pressure we were able to sedate the dog for surgery. Dogs like him with those owners using CM tactics would have resulted in some nasty bites. This dog was not acting out of aggression but out of fear. He was using aggression to hide his fear and a good trainer would know the difference. I have seen people who think that when dogs act like this to gang pile on them and use brut force. The problem is next time the dog will up the ante and put up fight quicker and more force behind it. By using the less restraint on him we were able to do more with him. Hopefully if he comes back (1) it will be my day off (2) that he will be more accepting of us because we did not gang pile on him. I really think that this was the wrong owner for THIS dog. Not BREED but DOG. The next Rottweiler might be a marshmallow in their hands.
> 
> I would not try to train a dog like this dog by watching someone on TV. I would want to hire a trainer and work with a trainer. I just see that if they were to use CM tactics this dog would put someone in the hospital or morgue.
> 
> I also hope that magically the neutering will help them but what the owner and dog need is a competent trainer who will give them sound advice. Alpha rolling this dog might be possible if you are the Swamp Men and not two scared humans that were trying to become wall tile in the exam room.


I took too much percocet to read all of that.

I take it you got the Rottie sedated. 



I would have used magic on the dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

We are still talking about TV show trainers.

None of them would be on my short list if I was putting toether a team of trainers.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I took too much percocet to read all of that.
> 
> I take it you got the Rottie sedated.
> 
> ...



Yes the Rott got sedated and the surgery was performed. I was just trying to point out that CM tactics are not for all dogs and even owners for that fact. I can not even imagine being so afraid of my dog that I did not want to be near him. I will admit I did stand back and watch the episode for awhile before I even got involved. And the magic in the syringe did wonders to get the dog sedated. It was just getting near enough to the dog so the magic could do the work. I do not blame it on the breed but on the owners who now have a very powerful, untrained, unsocialized mess of a dog on their hands. 

A dog like this sent to the wrong trainers will do more harm than good. I have been to dog training clubs that when a dog like this comes in, the trainers refuse to work with the owners or the dog. Trainers like CM will take on dogs like this one. The ratings soar when dog like this make it on the show.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Yes the Rott got sedated and the surgery was performed. I was just trying to point out that CM tactics are not for all dogs and even owners for that fact. I can not even imagine being so afraid of my dog that I did not want to be near him. I will admit I did stand back and watch the episode for awhile before I even got involved. And the magic in the syringe did wonders to get the dog sedated. It was just getting near enough to the dog so the magic could do the work. I do not blame it on the breed but on the owners who now have a very powerful, untrained, unsocialized mess of a dog on their hands.
> 
> A dog like this sent to the wrong trainers will do more harm than good. I have been to dog training clubs that when a dog like this comes in, the trainers refuse to work with the owners or the dog. Trainers like CM will take on dogs like this one. The ratings soar when dog like this make it on the show.




I am curious... How do ya'll handle it that practice you work at? Who restrains the dogs?


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

sometimes i am looking through other threads, and i see "banned" under a members name. 

usually i just have to come to latest 16 page thread to figure out why...haha.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am curious... How do ya'll handle it that practice you work at? Who restrains the dogs?


At my clinic, just about everyone has a hand in restraining if it's needed. I restrain (vet assistant), the RVTs restrain, the vets restrain.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> At my clinic, just about everyone has a hand in restraining if it's needed. I restrain (vet assistant), the RVTs restrain, the vets restrain.


I will not use a vet that will not allow me to restrain my animals. I insist on it. 

In the end I am responsible and no one can control my dogs better than me.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I will not use a vet that will not allow me to restrain my animals. I insist on it.
> 
> In the end I am responsible and no one can control my dogs better than me.


This. (Too short)


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I will not use a vet that will not allow me to restrain my animals. I insist on it.
> 
> In the end I am responsible and no one can control my dogs better than me.


my dogs better than me.[/QUOTE]


If the owner wants to hold their dog that is fine. I have no problem with that. I have euthed dogs, sedated dogs, tranq'd dogs all the while the owner is holding the head. NOW, if the owner can not hold onto their animal then I will insist an employee holds onto their dog. If my safety is in question or even that of the owner, it is best to have an employee handle the dog. Funny how laws are interpreted! I have sedated a dog, left the owner and dog in the room so the dog can relax and the tranq will work faster. Each case is different and nothing should be set in stone. You have to work with the owner, the dog, and what is happening. I learned long ago it was not worth it. There are too many egos in raring form and so I try to leave mine out of the exam room. The dog's ego being the biggest one. 

I have also found that dogs tend to get scared can become cage obsessed and once out of the cage a lot different. I have found sometimes just spending an extra 15 minutes just walking around the clinic or even outside to get the really scared/snarling ones to trust me. The last thing one should do is just rush in and think they can out maneuver a large breed dog. Plus you do not want to get a dog all worked up just before you sedate it. Bad things can happen.

As far as restraining depends on the dog. The dog in question a vet, who owns GSDs, tried to restrain the Rott. He flung her across the floor like a rag doll and head butted her in the process and about knocked her out. That is when I stepped in. The crazy aggressive ones I usually restrain. The rott I just stood there and not looking at the dog, the dog came up to me and I started to pet his head and then started to scratch his chest and when he relaxed I gently grabbed his leg and told him to 'give me your paw' he flinched at first but settled down. Another vet, ( the other one was still tending to her wounds) gently replaced her hand with mine and found the vein and sedated the dog. This took about 20 minutes to achieve but so what. I did not go up to the dog and forced it to do something it did not want to do. I just sat there and petted the dog. A content dog is going to sit or lie down eventually. Patience is a wonderful thing when you are dealing with vicious dogs.

Each situation is different. Each time a dog comes in can turn into a different scenario. I just got to leave my ego out of it and let the scene play out.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Because I consider GSD a novice breed. Or at least a breed that is forgving of a novice.


I will admit that I think too many people think GSDs are "magic". My first "on my own" dog was a GSD (Strauss). Would I recommend a dog like him for a novice? Absolutely not. I only did so well with him because I swore I wouldn't give up on him. If you're a push over type, then no, a GSD is not for you. Do I think they're easier than other breeds? Yes and no. But that is based on my own preferences, not the breed.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Sorry but I have a right to make sure ppl who want XYZ breeds to KNOW what they are getting into so more dogs don't end up abandoned in shelters or in the already full rescues, and if that offends some people well, then it offends some people.


I've got to agree with you here. There are a lot of dogs that aren't hard at all to deal with for the right owner, but I don't like the idea of recommending a tougher dog to a family who actually wants a biddable couch-potato, but is interested in a GSD, GSMD, Mal, etc because of looks or because they met one that they thought was an excellent dog (probably was an excellent dog, but do they realize the work that goes into it!). There were several times that DH and I looked at Caeda as she was growing up and discussed how, chances are, with other first time dog owners she probably would have ended up in a shelter, or on a chain in the back yard. IMO, every dog/breed needs a certain kind of owner....a person who is training for a marathon and wants a running buddy for hours every day probably won't do so well with say, an English Bulldog (it could happen, but I would be a little surprised).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Greater Swiss said:


> I've got to agree with you here. There are a lot of dogs that aren't hard at all to deal with for the right owner, but I don't like the idea of recommending a tougher dog to a family who actually wants a biddable couch-potato, but is interested in a GSD, GSMD, Mal, etc because of looks or because they met one that they thought was an excellent dog (probably was an excellent dog, but do they realize the work that goes into it!). There were several times that DH and I looked at Caeda as she was growing up and discussed how, chances are, with other first time dog owners she probably would have ended up in a shelter, or on a chain in the back yard. IMO, every dog/breed needs a certain kind of owner....a person who is training for a marathon and wants a running buddy for hours every day probably won't do so well with say, an English Bulldog (it could happen, but I would be a little surprised).


Laurelin hit upon the heart of this a few pages back.

Making sure people are prepared is a really good thing, but it often times crosses the line into making it sound like nobody should own the dog - except, of course, the people who already do, because the dogs are SO difficult and SO hard to own and SO impossible to live with. 

That doesn't help anyone. It's not useful information, it isn't guidance toward a breed that suits the owner or doesn't, or providing concrete information about *how* the dog is difficult to live with. Whether it's going overboard in a love of a breed or just an ego trip or something else, I don't know but in the end it's just being a jerk.

And honestly? "If my dog had ended up with a first time dog owner, it would have ended up in a shelter." To me, that sounds a lot like more of the thing people like to do here - "I'm not the average owner/we're not the average owner" and generally setting aside. I've got hard dogs and easy dogs now and have most of my life. I've seen hard and easy dogs dropped off in the shelter or rehomed. I also know people HERE whose first dogs were GSDs, and Rotts and ACDS, and BCs and even, in the real world now, a MAL. They all do fine, because they dog the dog that fit their lifestyle and temperament and personality and the dog they WANTED. Not a 'starter dog' that they didn't really want.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

If I had gone on a Doberman forum before getting Kris, I would probably have never gotten a Doberman even though I did have one years ago. I remembered him being a very smart, easily trained dog. I read so many things on the forums about Dobermans that Kris is the opposite of. She has not been the easiest dog to train but I had gotten used to the little Shih Tzu x Maltese that mature a lot faster and were so easy to train. When I had my last Doberman, other than the Scottish Terriers (which I do not consider a "small" dog) I had always had big dogs to train.

Kris at 15 months is finally becoming the Obedience dog I knew she could be. She is a pleasure to be around, always has been that. She never was mouthy but I got her at 11 weeks and maybe the breeder helped with that. I am glad I crate trained her so well as not sure yet if I would trust her loose when I am not around but in the nice weather, she is quite happy to be left outside with Susie if I am not going to be away for too long.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Laurelin hit upon the heart of this a few pages back.
> 
> Making sure people are prepared is a really good thing, but it often times crosses the line into making it sound like nobody should own the dog - except, of course, the people who already do, because the dogs are SO difficult and SO hard to own and SO impossible to live with.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is suggesting that no one should own "hard" breeds. But saying that said breed enthusiasts don't have the right to run some sort of interference for their breeds is equally unfair.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

CptJack said:


> And honestly? "If my dog had ended up with a first time dog owner, it would have ended up in a shelter." To me, that sounds a lot like more of the thing people like to do here - "I'm not the average owner/we're not the average owner" and generally setting aside.


I'm still pretty sure Caeda would have ended up in a shelter, or who knows what. I'd say my DH and I aren't the average first time dog owners...when you include the types that get dogs as "gifts" for kids at Christmas and allow them to get bored with it by Feb, think dogs need a walk once a week and aren't willing to change that assumption, I'm not talking your general dog owner on this forum. Not every first time owner will make large changes in their lives for their dogs, they expect their dogs can be trained to fit their lifestyle, or will "grow into it" or grow out of a "bad habit". Of course some average first time owners would have done wonders with Caeda! The active type, that didn't habitually leave shoes on the floor, or food on the counter, not easily frustrated, and went for nightly walks anyway! Other average owners, like we were, wanting to chill on the couch (or needing to, to some degree, since at the time I was not well)...we luckily recognized that we weren't what she needed and strove to become what she needed. It did us (especially me) a TON of good, that old saying "getting the dog you need not the one you want" definitely applies! I will say again though, the average first timer, who wasn't willing to make those changes, or didn't already fit what she needed, would have probably landed her in a shelter, or at least very unhappy (if not absolute misery), and been unhappy with her themselves. 

Not saying we are incredible, truly rare or perfect, but I do think that for first timers making some of the changes and the efforts, we don't seem to be in the majority, if we were there would probably be far fewer dogs left tethered in yards and relinquished to shelters. On the other hand there are others like us...and I'm always happy to see them. I do think it would be irresponsible though to recommend "my breed" (if you want to call it that) to any joe-blow wanting to get his kid a puppy....


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that no one should own "hard" breeds. But saying that said breed enthusiasts don't have the right to run some sort of interference for their breeds is equally unfair.


But that's the thing... the "breed enthusiasts" running interference are mostly coming off as jerks. Its fine to say that a breed typically is high energy, or is independent, or velcro, or whatever, but like CptJack pointed out, it almost always comes out as "you shouldn't own this dog because it is too X and not enough Y." It too often sounds like they don't want anyone to own the breed other than the people that already do, like no one is good enough because their breed is so special that it is not like any other dogs. out there... ignoring the fact that while dogs are individuals, they are all still DOGS. Plus, telling people what they cannot do tends to be a surefire way to push them into doing it. So if you want to "run interference" tell people the truth about the breed - they can be hard to motivate, prone to anxiety, high energy, ADD, whatever... but telling someone they can't handle a certain breed, especially on the internet where you probably don't really know the person, is snobby and elitist.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> But that's the thing... the "breed enthusiasts" running interference are mostly coming off as jerks. Its fine to say that a breed typically is high energy, or is independent, or velcro, or whatever, but like CptJack pointed out, it almost always comes out as "you shouldn't own this dog because it is too X and not enough Y." It too often sounds like they don't want anyone to own the breed other than the people that already do, like no one is good enough because their breed is so special that it is not like any other dogs. out there... ignoring the fact that while dogs are individuals, they are all still DOGS. Plus, telling people what they cannot do tends to be a surefire way to push them into doing it. So if you want to "run interference" tell people the truth about the breed - they can be hard to motivate, prone to anxiety, high energy, ADD, whatever... but telling someone they can't handle a certain breed, especially on the internet where you probably don't really know the person, is snobby and elitist.



Yep. Exactly all of that.

Giving a balanced, HONEST, look at what most breeds are like it utterly and completely fine. I do it with my breeds and I'll admit that, yeah, sometimes I'm working to discourage somebody because what they say they want? That isn't what that breed is, or is known to be. They want a low energy, gentle, lapdog and are looking at Boston Terriers, particularly puppies, my eyebrows are gonna crock up and I'm going to point out they're not low energy and can be pretty heavy hitting physical dogs. They want a biddable, quiet dog and I'm really not going to start suggesting Great Pyrs! Or not telling people that they bark a lot and are independent, aloof and stubborn!

But at some point it really does cross the line and I think everyone would be better served to be aware OF that line and not crossing it. The method of making sure somebody really wants what they want isn't to try as hard as you possibly can to make the breed sound absolutely as bad as possible and hope they run in terror - because they're gonna snort at you and know you're overstating the case. Because 99% of the time? They're not just overstating the case, they are RADICALLY overstating the case and even when it's not the intent it just makes it look like what's being said is 'I'm better than you because I can own them and you can't'. I mean honestly, yes, breed characteristics exist and are things, and individuals generally have commonalities, but let's get real:

Find me ONE trait that exists in only ONE breed - that is really and totally unique to that breed. The combinations vary, yep! The intensity can vary! But intensity varies within the breed and individuals in it, too.

And honestly 'you don't know what it's like to own X, unless you've lived with them' - Well, sure. But I can tell you from experience and all those foster dogs that living with a high drive gsd and a mal aren't all that different in practicality, and living with a tree walker ain't, surprisingly, all that different than living with a husky. Living with an ACD isn't all that different than living with a Kelpie. I could do this with MOSt 'difficult' breeds. Because the 'hard' traits cross, big time. 

mostly though, I dont' believe 'Elite' dog owners and 'elite' dog breeds are a thing. I believe that with very, very, few and rare exceptions that what we have are dog breeds that fit people and environment and lifestyles and that the most ELITE dog owner that wins the most props from me? Is somebody who survived a gun dog puppy's first two years. Yep, not any of the herders, not any of the guardians, but the retrievers and spaniels that everybody and their mother consider good 'beginner' dogs. Why? Because those are the absolute CRAPPIEST personality fits for ME.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yep. Exactly all of that.
> 
> Giving a balanced, HONEST, look at what most breeds are like it utterly and completely fine. I do it with my breeds and I'll admit that, yeah, sometimes I'm working to discourage somebody because what they say they want? That isn't what that breed is, or is known to be. They want a low energy, gentle, lapdog and are looking at Boston Terriers, particularly puppies, my eyebrows are gonna crock up and I'm going to point out they're not low energy and can be pretty heavy hitting physical dogs. They want a biddable, quiet dog and I'm really not going to start suggesting Great Pyrs! Or not telling people that they bark a lot and are independent, aloof and stubborn!
> 
> ...


I don't remember saying ONE breed, I said working / sporting / herding type breeds and yes I will continue to "run interference" where needed. As someone who can "mold their life" to fit any dog, you have to consider that not everyone can do that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Working breeds, herding breeds, and sporting breeds covers a lot of dogs. I'd do pretty well with most herders I can think of- some more than others. I'd do poorly with most working breeds (AKC working group), I'd do ok with some sporting breeds but a lot probably not cause I don't mesh with them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Working breeds, herding breeds, and sporting breeds covers a lot of dogs. I'd do pretty well with most herders I can think of- some more than others. I'd do poorly with most working breeds (AKC working group), I'd do ok with some sporting breeds but a lot probably not cause I don't mesh with them.


Yep. Within the herding breed, I'm gold. Within the working breed, I'm okay with more than not. Within the sporting breed? Very few, but some. 

Also, yes. I can mold my life around my dogs and am fortunate in that, but what most people can do is know what they want and have a better look at their lives and their capabilities than someone online. Interference is baloney. Education - fine, yes, definitely by all means please do. Interference? Please. Do you really think anyone LISTENS when people start telling them what they can't have or do? Or that you can actually even KNOW?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

You know.... threads such as this... Even though general opinion is against CM, drives up and increases the organic value to the Cesa Millan b rand name.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Working breeds, herding breeds, and sporting breeds covers a lot of dogs. I'd do pretty well with most herders I can think of- some more than others. I'd do poorly with most working breeds (AKC working group), I'd do ok with some sporting breeds but a lot probably not cause I don't mesh with them.


I actually think you would be the perfect. Owner. Ever for many, if not all of the herding breeds , as would many of the people here.

When I talk about running interference .... It's against those crappy dog owners ... You know the ones I am talking about, the ones who leave their dogs to rot on chains and such.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It doesn't seem to make much difference (breed-wise) which dogs end up dumped in shelters or killed for being unwanted or rotting on a backyard chain. "Easy" dogs, "hard" dogs, whatever. People who aren't committed to their pets just aren't, and those who are just are. I guess I don't see how trying to discourage people from one breed or another makes much difference in that regard. 

Granted, there are people who ARE committed to their pets and try their darndest and it still doesn't work out. And people who aren't committed to their pets who magically end up with a dog that fits their family perfectly with no training, but those situations are pretty rare. It's mostly about how committed the owner is.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> It doesn't seem to make much difference (breed-wise) which dogs end up dumped in shelters or killed for being unwanted or rotting on a backyard chain. "Easy" dogs, "hard" dogs, whatever. People who aren't committed to their pets just aren't, and those who are just are. I guess I don't see how trying to discourage people from one breed or another makes much difference in that regard.
> 
> Granted, there are people who ARE committed to their pets and try their darndest and it still doesn't work out. And people who aren't committed to their pets who magically end up with a dog that fits their family perfectly with no training, but those situations are pretty rare. It's mostly about how committed the owner is.


Yep. The dog next door rotting on its chain? Probably a herder mix, but it doesn't really matter. They don't care about the dog or dogs. Before that one they had a 12lb rt mix out there rotting on a chain (it was given away shortly after we moved in), and it was the easiest dog in the planet. This one is likewise easy, but it's still out there rotting on its chain because the people who own it just don't care. My daily walk is filled with chained and kenneled dogs - of those mixes there is a chow/pit looking thing, a bunch of labs and hounds, and a couple of cocker spaniels. Oh and a doxie. People who are committed, when it doesn't work? They rehome themselves and go the responsible route. 

And honestly, how many BCs and ACDs and Rotts and other 'difficult' breeds get dumped in shelters as opposed to labs, lab mixes, hounds, hound mixes, pit and pit mixes? None of those are the typical, warned against, "hard" breeds - but they're what craigslist and shelters are full to bursting with. A look at Petfinder or craigslist in various areas will tell you that much is true and give you the numbers to support it.

Largely, IMO, because they're touted as 'easy' and people think that means they're going to be a cake-walk and we all know that's not true. Also because they're overbred, easy to get your hands on without breeder support and a breeder giving factual information.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yep. The dog next door rotting on its chain? Probably a herder mix, but it doesn't really matter. They don't care about the dog or dogs. Before that one they had a 12lb rt mix out there rotting on a chain (it was given away shortly after we moved in), and it was the easiest dog in the planet. This one is likewise easy, but it's still out there rotting on its chain because the people who own it just don't care. My daily walk is filled with chained and kenneled dogs - of those mixes there is a chow/pit looking thing, a bunch of labs and hounds, and a couple of cocker spaniels. Oh and a doxie. People who are committed, when it doesn't work? They rehome themselves and go the responsible route.
> 
> And honestly, how many BCs and ACDs and Rotts and other 'difficult' breeds get dumped in shelters as opposed to labs, lab mixes, hounds, hound mixes, pit and pit mixes? None of those are the typical, warned against, "hard" breeds - but they're what craigslist and shelters are full to bursting with. A look at Petfinder or craigslist in various areas will tell you that much is true and give you the numbers to support it.
> 
> Largely, IMO, because they're touted as 'easy' and people think that means they're going to be a cake-walk and we all know that's not true. Also because they're overbred, easy to get your hands on without breeder support and a breeder giving factual information.


In my area? Too many , it's either bully mixes or herder mixes and the local breed rescues are full and always looking for more foster homes.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I actually think you would be the perfect. Owner. Ever for many, if not all of the herding breeds , as would many of the people here.
> 
> When I talk about running interference .... It's against those crappy dog owners ... You know the ones I am talking about, the ones who leave their dogs to rot on chains and such.


People who leave their dog to rot on chains probably shouldn't own any dog though. Most dogs are going to end up very frustrated in that kind of situation.

We did get in some herders in the shelter in Texas but no more than we got in hounds or labs. Probably way less than labs actually... Mostly we got in pit bulls.


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## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

I just think it's ridiculous shows like that are allowed on air. At least with "It's me or the dog" if people follow Victoria's techniques they won't RUIN their dog. Only trainer on TV I think is truly GOOD is the cat guy.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

littlesoprano said:


> I just think it's ridiculous shows like that are allowed on air. At least with "It's me or the dog" if people follow Victoria's techniques they won't RUIN their dog. Only trainer on TV I think is truly GOOD is the cat guy.


He's cool and all, but sometimes I get a "cats rule and dogs drool" vibe from him.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> He's cool and all, but sometimes I get a "cats rule and dogs drool" vibe from him.


As though a lot of dog people don't have that vibe in the other direction?  

Yeah, he's awesome.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> As though a lot of dog people don't have that vibe in the other direction?
> 
> Yeah, he's awesome.


Yes but as a professional he shouldn't be so ... I guess "well the cat isn't doing anything wrong and the dog has to be trained" about it .

I am a dog person but I Am not ashamed to admit that I have loved more then a few cats lol


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh, I guess I haven't seen any episodes with dog/cat interactions. But, yes, generally it is the dog who needs training if there's a conflict. Because cats "will do as they do do and there's no doing anything about it" . Although of course the point of his show is doing something about it so I guess that doesn't fully apply .

I think even that show dramas things up for the viewers, but at least he doesn't deliberately rile up the cats for the sake of the show. They just add dramatic music and camera effects, LOL. Dun dun dun!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think that one reason there are many Labs and Pits in rescues is b/c the litters can be 10 pups!

With Labs, people may see a calm, well-trained adult, so they adopt a puppy, not knowing that they've invoked a fuzzy, needle-toothed, vampire, eating machine. The shock is too overwhelming... 

With Pits, people see happy, joyous dogs, so they adopt one, not knowing that they now have to deal with 40 - 100 lbs of 100% go-go-go muscle... 

So it's back to the issue of preconception vs. education...


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I saw a dog and cat show from "my cat from hell", and yes even though I'm more of a dog person I agreed wholeheartedly with how Jackson handled it. 
Trained the cat with boundaries and referred to a dog trainer a dog trainer how to train the dog, because that dog was instigating a lot of it and just being annoying.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Flaming said:


> I saw a dog and cat show from "my cat from hell", and yes even though I'm more of a dog person I agreed wholeheartedly with how Jackson handled it.
> Trained the cat with boundaries and referred to a dog trainer a dog trainer how to train the dog, because that dog was instigating a lot of it and just being annoying.


But in some cases where it's the cat attacking the dog for doing nothing but being a dog (like the one with the ridgeback ). I know he's all "cats will be cats" but I argue that dogs will be dogs as well. 

I just never realized that cats were so ... Hard. Lol


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I just never realized that cats were so ... Hard. Lol


 LOL, Yeah, cats are tough....but I realized the other night, we (and I think I can include most other cat owners in the collective "we") let cats get away with WAY more than dogs ever could. They get on counters, lick the dishes if they are there, sleep ON your head (not near, ON), run around in the middle of the night like mad things, yowl, get under our feet (I think that is how my grandmother broke her hip!), they claw us after 30 seconds of petting, some bite, they beg for food you name it....yet if a dog did that we would all go BERZERK (if not have them declared dangerous)! For the most part it doesn't even occur to us to try to train them! Of course it did occur to me to try to train the cats a bit...WOW, give me a vicious unsocialized dog any day and I think that would be easier lol (I am of course exaggerating, but I'm sure you get the point). Cats are.....cats I guess lol, and I completely get why some people don't like them....and why some do.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> I think that one reason there are many Labs and Pits in rescues is b/c the litters can be 10 pups!


So do border collies and rottweilers and gsps and - just about every other medium large to large breed. Nothing out of the ordinary there. 

And yep. Education against misconceptions - like the fact that they're necessarily easier for everyone to own than, oh, any other dog including some of those hard breeds. People like to tout labs as the perfect doggy dog for almost any family. They're not. Which is why "Don't get a _____ until you have dog experience, just get a lab!" is problematic in one more way.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

People just don't care when they drop off a dog at the shelter. I am not talking about the owner who is forced to give up a pet due to a job loss or something like that. I have seen too many of these owners just sign the paper and walk out without a care. I for one would be bawling my eyes out like crazy. There are those that just see a dog as a piece of property and not something to have feelings for. These folks could have the best behaved dog in the world tied out in the back yard or left behind when they move and they just do not care. I have seen these dogs get adopted and end up in homes where the new owner just raves about how wonderful this dog is. My hubby's granny was like this with a pair of Chihuahuas. To her dogs did not belong inside. Dogs belonged outside because they were dirty and had fleas. She just could never understand how I could let my dogs live inside and kept telling her grandson to kick my dogs outside. NO! I don't think so! But that is how she grew up and believed how dogs were to be treated. My husband said that they would be those owners who would move and leave the dog behind hoping the new homeowner would take in the dog. Luckily for me my husband does not feel this way about dogs anymore. He has two Chihs sleep with him every night. Now his brother, like granny. Had dogs but were always outside and little family time was spent with the dogs. His daughter is the same way with her dog. I just wonder why even have a dog if you really don't like them? There is no law stating you must own a dog to complete a family.

Is there a perfect dog out there? Hard to say, I think there are many families out there willing to accept a dog for being a dog.


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## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes but as a professional he shouldn't be so ... I guess "well the cat isn't doing anything wrong and the dog has to be trained" about it .
> 
> I am a dog person but I Am not ashamed to admit that I have loved more then a few cats lol


To be perfectly fair, it's a lot easier to train a dog to behave in a certain manner then to a cat lol. Well for the average cat owner that is.


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## GoodBoyCharlie (Mar 18, 2014)

I'm new to training. I've found two techniques that he used to be helpful. One is a "snap out of it" noise for getting their attention. The other is a variation on a feeding routine. With four dogs to feed, it's usually a mad scramble. But if I pause and hold the first bowl out in front of me for 20 seconds, I have their full attention. I can then give each individual food bowl and all of the dogs behave perfectly and don't wander away to other bowls, until theirs is empty or nearly empty. However I would never take food away from my dogs just to show them that I'm the boss. That seems unusually mean and pointless.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> He's cool and all, but sometimes I get a "cats rule and dogs drool" vibe from him.


If that's coming across I don't think it's intentional. On his fb page he often advocates for dogs needing rescue/shares dog related posts and has a dog himself. Compared to other cat focused people I've seen, he's pretty mild about his bias, presuming there is any.

Obviously his 'brand' is the cat guy so he doesn't focus equally on both. I remember also seeing an episode where the dogs needed training that he didn't know how to provide, so he brought in a certified dog trainer (+R) to help the people with their dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> If that's coming across I don't think it's intentional. On his fb page he often advocates for dogs needing rescue/shares dog related posts and has a dog himself. Compared to other cat focused people I've seen, he's pretty mild about his bias, presuming there is any.
> 
> Obviously his 'brand' is the cat guy so he doesn't focus equally on both. I remember also seeing an episode where the dogs needed training that he didn't know how to provide, so he brought in a certified dog trainer (+R) to help the people with their dogs.


True, and he does a lot of good things for people and troublesome cats who probsbsly otherwise would be euthed. I'm not saying he is a bad guy, quite the contrary he is a good person and the methods he uses on cats would work very well on dogs too!


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## scottt140 (Jan 28, 2014)

Woah, I stopped paying attention, I didn't know this topic took off so much!

I don't think Ceaser is the greatest dog trainer ever. In some of the episodes he doesn't do much to help. This one particular episode comes to mind where he solution to calm this wild husky on walks was to strap a weighted back back to the dog.... He said "look how his tail is down now that means he is calm and submissive" but in reality the dog just looked miserable! Then, between the 4 week period where he comes back the dog bit the neighbor and he didn't really do anything that made me think the dog wasn't going to do it again and end of having to be put down.

I think some of his techniques might have some merit though. Like the "tssst" thing where he makes the noise and touches the dog. All that does is get the dogs attention and make them stop whatever they are doing. Though I don't have a dog so I can't really say if that works.

Jackson Galexy is legit. I love My Cat From Hell and have seen every episode. He really gets cats and just from watching his show it has really improved my relationship with my cat.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

littlesoprano said:


> To be perfectly fair, it's a lot easier to train a dog to behave in a certain manner then to a cat lol. Well for the average cat owner that is.


lol I don't play favorites


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> lol I don't play favorites


OMG. I'm laughing so hard right now. 

Both my mom's cats love dog crates. They snuggle right up in there when the dogs aren't snoozing.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I never said Jackson wasn't a true pro or the real deal, or that is doesn't help or make a difference to many people and animals. He is just ... A cat person, and cat people and me usually go together like fire and gasoline . 

Seeing episodes of DW and ceaser 911 tell me that there a lot of clueless, common senseless dog owners I this world because I am not all, ultra experienced worlds best dog owner either and I never end up with the problems that I see on those shows ... I don't even know how people MAKE dogs like that!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

scottt140 said:


> I think some of his techniques might have some merit though. Like the "tssst" thing where he makes the noise and touches the dog. All that does is get the dogs attention and make them stop whatever they are doing. Though I don't have a dog so I can't really say if that works.


Well, it's an interrupter and it gets their attention. Anything will work. I use a sharp "hey!" I don't think the poke is necessary, but as long as it's not a hard poke, whatever. However, an interrupter needs to be followed up by an actual command. You'll see people out in public poking their dogs in the neck while hissing, and it's obviously not doing any damn good because the dog has learned to ignore the interrupter and the owner's not actually asking the dog to DO anything.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I just never realized that cats were so ... Hard. Lol


Yeah, cats are a lot tougher than people seem to think. My cat, Spore, attacked and chased off a dog at my mom's house that was trying to start crap with Charlotte a few years back. The dog tried to fight back for a few seconds until Spore sunk his claws into it's face, at which point it shrieked and took off with Spore right behind it. Charlotte just sat there like "Well that was easy" LOL!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

RCloud said:


> Yeah, cats are a lot tougher than people seem to think. My cat, Spore, attacked and chased off a dog at my mom's house that was trying to start crap with Charlotte a few years back. The dog tried to fight back for a few seconds until Spore sunk his claws into it's face, at which point it shrieked and took off with Spore right behind it. Charlotte just sat there like "Well that was easy" LOL!


Our old guy Ollie, a couple of years ago he had a fight with either a cougar or a fox (according to what the vet thought from the bite marks on his chest). Ollie was COVERED in blood when I found him....turns out that not much of it was his! Took about a week for the bite to heal and he was all good. Plus, one of my earliest memories is of my grandparent's cat, on the back of a big Rottweiller (neighbor's dog apparently) the poor dog was yelping and running. The cat jumped off, watched him run away and that dog NEVER came back again, and the cat was super nice and friendly with humans and its best buddy my grandparent's GSD. How tough (and sometimes nasty vicious) cats can be never ceases to amaze me!

Of course speaking of CM and other such shows...there's always Cat From Hell...that one gives me a giggle.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Well, it's an interrupter and it gets their attention. Anything will work. I use a sharp "hey!" I don't think the poke is necessary, but as long as it's not a hard poke, whatever. However, an interrupter needs to be followed up by an actual command. You'll see people out in public poking their dogs in the neck while hissing, and it's obviously not doing any damn good because the dog has learned to ignore the interrupter and the owner's not actually asking the dog to DO anything.


I would never "poke" or "touch" a dog who is turned on or in drive mode. that is a really good way to get bitten IMO. But I will use a touch (like I have bumped my dogs with the side of my thigh before to get their attention back on me), but if they are already trying to get at whatever it is, I will remove them further away from the trigger and try again


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

About Jackson Galaxy:
I am a HUGE fan of his.
I honestly have so much respect for this man.
I follow him on twitter, watch his show, like him on facebook, watch his youtube videos and watch his google+ livestreams.
He readily gives cat owners free information about cat training just to help people and their pets. 
You can tell he genuinely cares about helping people and cats. 
He has also come out as 'bipetual'; someone who loves dogs and cats equally, and he owns a dog.
He promotes dog and cat shelters on his pages and even encourages the adoption of cats and dogs together so that they can be raised together. 

About Cesar Millan:
I don't hate him like a lot of dog owners do.
I don't agree with punishment training, but I don't think he's this monster of a dog abuser (like some people make him out to be).
He has some good tactics. Ie. no touch, no talk, no eye contact, having calm energy around dogs, and the importance of exercising your dog everyday.
I've watched the majority of the dog whisperer episodes, but prefer to follow the teachings of Zak George. 
CM was almost very honest and open about his suicide attempt.
He's a human just like we are all.
When it comes to dogs, I truly believe he has the best of intentions.
He's just doing what he's been taught/what he observed from dogs interacting with each other.
You don't have to do/listen.
Don't hate, educate.


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## karayna (Jan 1, 2014)

A friend of mine visited a couple of weeks ago, and confidently announced that he would "try out a Cesar thing" on my boy Linux. I asked what it was, and after he told me, I agreed. Linux had a pig ear, which my friend tried to "claim" Cesar style. He crouched and put his hand over it, and tried to get Linux to leave it alone. 

Big mistake... my friend sat on the floor in the same "assertive" position for 15-20 minutes while Linux tried all sorts of tricks to get to the ear. He tried to snatch it quickly, he barked my friend right in his ears, he looked at the scene from different angles, he walked out of the room and back again, he banged his paws on the floor, he tackled my friend, he sat down to think about the situation - and finally pretended to play with a toy while he slowly crawled behind my friend and pushed his head under my friend's arm to grab the ear from behind. He would not give up - because he thought it was a fun game. I just laughed!

Finally, my friend surrendered and told me that "a normal dog would have given up much sooner" (ah - but he didn't give up at all!). Well, you've got to be smarter than Cesar to outsmart a stubborn Beardie...


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> Our old guy Ollie, a couple of years ago he had a fight with either a cougar or a fox (according to what the vet thought from the bite marks on his chest). Ollie was COVERED in blood when I found him....turns out that not much of it was his! Took about a week for the bite to heal and he was all good. Plus, one of my earliest memories is of my grandparent's cat, on the back of a big Rottweiller (neighbor's dog apparently) the poor dog was yelping and running. The cat jumped off, watched him run away and that dog NEVER came back again, and the cat was super nice and friendly with humans and its best buddy my grandparent's GSD. How tough (and sometimes nasty vicious) cats can be never ceases to amaze me!
> 
> Of course speaking of CM and other such shows...there's always Cat From Hell...that one gives me a giggle.


I believe it. I like what Stephen King said about cats, and how they are kind of like the gangsters of the animal world.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

karayna said:


> A friend of mine visited a couple of weeks ago, and confidently announced that he would "try out a Cesar thing" on my boy Linux. I asked what it was, and after he told me, I agreed. Linux had a pig ear, which my friend tried to "claim" Cesar style. He crouched and put his hand over it, and tried to get Linux to leave it alone.
> 
> Big mistake... my friend sat on the floor in the same "assertive" position for 15-20 minutes while Linux tried all sorts of tricks to get to the ear. He tried to snatch it quickly, he barked my friend right in his ears, he looked at the scene from different angles, he walked out of the room and back again, he banged his paws on the floor, he tackled my friend, he sat down to think about the situation - and finally pretended to play with a toy while he slowly crawled behind my friend and pushed his head under my friend's arm to grab the ear from behind. He would not give up - because he thought it was a fun game. I just laughed!
> 
> Finally, my friend surrendered and told me that "a normal dog would have given up much sooner" (ah - but he didn't give up at all!). Well, you've got to be smarter than Cesar to outsmart a stubborn Beardie...


I have to laugh at all this. My last dog was a beardie. CM and beardies in the same sentence just doesn't make sense. I'm sure you dog thought it was the most fun he had all day.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RCloud said:


> I believe it. I like what Stephen King said about cats, and how they are kind of like the gangsters of the animal world.


We have three... and I refer to them as a street gang high on catnip...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

karayna said:


> A friend of mine visited a couple of weeks ago, and confidently announced that he would "try out a Cesar thing" on my boy Linux. I asked what it was, and after he told me, I agreed. Linux had a pig ear, which my friend tried to "claim" Cesar style. He crouched and put his hand over it, and tried to get Linux to leave it alone.
> 
> Big mistake... my friend sat on the floor in the same "assertive" position for 15-20 minutes while Linux tried all sorts of tricks to get to the ear. He tried to snatch it quickly, he barked my friend right in his ears, he looked at the scene from different angles, he walked out of the room and back again, he banged his paws on the floor, he tackled my friend, he sat down to think about the situation - and finally pretended to play with a toy while he slowly crawled behind my friend and pushed his head under my friend's arm to grab the ear from behind. He would not give up - because he thought it was a fun game. I just laughed!
> 
> Finally, my friend surrendered and told me that "a normal dog would have given up much sooner" (ah - but he didn't give up at all!). Well, you've got to be smarter than Cesar to outsmart a stubborn Beardie...


I would let anyone try any Cesar Milan tricks they wanted on two out of three of my dogs... as long as they signed and had notarized a hold harmless and wore protective gear.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I would let anyone try any Cesar Milan tricks they wanted on two out of three of my dogs... as long as they signed and had notarized a hold harmless and wore protective gear.


This. Three would respond well, one would probably think he as playing lol.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> This. Three would respond well, one would probably think he as playing lol.


Mine would see them as an aggressor and fight....


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## karayna (Jan 1, 2014)

beardiedawg said:


> I have to laugh at all this. My last dog was a beardie. CM and beardies in the same sentence just doesn't make sense. I'm sure you dog thought it was the most fun he had all day.


Exactly!  And when my friend tried the "tschhht"-push, Linux got even more excited (he likes to play rough)! I forgot to mention that he also tried to lift and remove my friend's fingers, one by one, with his teeth, so he could get to his pig ear.


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## karayna (Jan 1, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I would let anyone try any Cesar Milan tricks they wanted on two out of three of my dogs... as long as they signed and had notarized a hold harmless and wore protective gear.


Haha! I'm not volunteering...  

I guess my old lady beardie would either look at the person in shock (why are you acting so weird?) or think that it was really funny. If the person was persistent enough, she'd get irritated and tell him/her off (don't dare degrade ME, human, YOU should BOW to my wise and noble presence).


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

So my 6'5" male cousin decided to try something like that with Manna, I wish I had thought to video it.
Turns out that Manna standing on her hind legs is about 6' tall now, I've never seen her stand that straight without support.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Now I don't know what they would do if a stranger tried to "tssst" and "bite" or "touch" them. Buddy probably would shut down. Josefina I don't know, she might try to play with him, because that's how I play with her, I make fun of his methods and "tssst" her, messing around.

Has anyone watched his new show "Cesar 911"? He may be a pompous bag of wind most of the time, but you have to admit his "dog psychology center" is NICE! I also see a trend where every time he wants to make improvements to the property (he mentioned in one episode that he was adding something), he comes out with a new show LOL.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

If you 'tssst' at Toby (just the noise, that's it) he stops what he's doing and looks at you - but that's the noise I use with the cats to get them to stop doing something they shouldn't be, so he's just used to hearing it used as a 'No'. 
If you try any of cesar's physical tactics with Toby, he either thinks you're playing aggressively and will react accordingly, or he will shut down. Roll him and you scare the shit out of him.


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## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

Can I ask why some of you have problems rolling your dogs?That's just weird.I roll them every time I clip their nails and they don't freak out.Or I am misunderstanding something?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Pasarella said:


> Can I ask why some of you have problems rolling your dogs?That's just weird.I roll them every time I clip their nails and they don't freak out.Or I am misunderstanding something?


It's a forced submission thing. Not something like rubbing tummies or clipping nails. Unless during nail time you force your dogs down and hold them there until they stop struggling. Let's hope not, or they'll really hate having their nails done!


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## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

No they don't struggle,they try to get their paws back


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Pasarella said:


> Can I ask why some of you have problems rolling your dogs?That's just weird.I roll them every time I clip their nails and they don't freak out.Or I am misunderstanding something?


 I can get Caeda to lay on her side either by manipulating her (if she is laying down first preferably), or by telling her "side", but rolling her on her back....no go. She REALLY doesn't like it, I'm assuming she just doesn't find it comfy, she even laid on her back seldom as a puppy. Dexter on the other hand would roll on his back instantly for any variety of reasons lol, especially for the reason of laying on his back wedged between me laying on the couch, and the back of the couch for cuddle time. I think some dogs just don't like it!

As for the CM Tsssst and "touch"/"bite" thing. Every now and then I'll realize things I do with Caeda, and I'll admit, I do something that is a parallel, but is definitely not the same time. Today at the vet for instance. I was trying to keep Caeda calm in the waiting room, she was doing excellently, but I did notice her getting that posture where she wanted to break her sit and go try to play with the dog across the room. I said "Eh" (quietly, but loud enough to hear), and I touched her on her shoulder, and I mean touched, patted, not poked, not a pretend bite, just like if you tapped someone on the shoulder in a crowd to (in a friendly way) get their attention. It got her attention back to me and she calmed. Same function of the whole CM thing, get attention back with something auditory and something physical, but I certainly don't think that I sound like a hissing snake or cat or whatever the heck that sound is supposed to be, and I know she doesn't think I'm her momma dog biting her to tell her she isn't as dominant as me (and I'm certainly not doing it that hard). I have no intent to surprise or shock her either, just a gentle "hey pup, I'm here, not over there, have a look at me". Once she calmed for a few seconds I gave her a treat (if she is super hyped she gets a treat right away). Whenever I've seen the TSSSST-Poke thing I always have to shake my head, I just don't see that (in most cases) it has to be that jarring and that pushy. Some dogs would escalate or redirect from that if they are already seriously aroused. It certainly seems like an "assertive" move, but calm, a poke in the ribs doesn't come off as calm to me. I dunno.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

None of mine find nail clipping pleasant, three are cool with it (though if you would see how bear acts, you would think I was killing him lol. He shakes and all) one is awful and there is nothing I can do to make it good for him, he hates anything that is not his idea and wants to leave when you do something like brush him. He's gotten better but because he didn't have a socialized upbringing, he's never going to be admissive to anything done to him.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I think you could do most of the CM stuff to Duke and he would never know what you were doing, he is sort of dense and being a big AB doesn't really feel most things. Now a strange man in his house being aggressive towards him, that wouldn't go over well. Add his "baby" being present and things could get really ugly really fast. My other three are sensitive and don't take even a suggested correction well. If Remus thinks I might be upset with him he sulks, Blue would pee everywhere. I do "eh eh" the dogs, lets them know I see what they are doing and probably don't approve. I also "ch ch" to get Remus to pay attention to me on walks. It isn't a negative sound just reminds him we are walking together not looking at the squirrels, birds, dogs, ect. I will touch Remus's nose if I need his attention back on me in high interest places as well. It is just a touch though. Really he is the one who needs the most interaction and reminders.

ETA: nail clipping depends on the dog. Duke's nails have never needed clipped in almost 7 years. He is heavy and just walking on concrete wears them down. It's a good thing because he hates having his paws handled. I just hold Blue in my lap and she lets me do it. She doesn't love it but she doesn't really hate it either. Freyja has only had her nails done once so far but she is due again. It was not the least bit difficult, I just held her in my lap and did it. She is getting bigger so I may need to change how we do it this time. With Remus I stand over him and tell him to "paw" he holds out his paw and I use my dremel to file the nails that need done. It does stress him but it isn't awful or anything. I usually only do two paws then give him a break.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

he could definitely be near my dog for a million dollars (and less) but he couldn't handle,
touch or train my dog.



LaneyKate said:


> I'm new to the forum and therefore late to the party. I'll have to pour a glass of wine and "enjoy" the reading.
> 
> >>>>>> For the record, I wouldn't let him near my dogs for a million dollars. <<<<<
> 
> ...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I heard that people have to sign a waver saying they will never talk about what goes on during or after the consultation with CM.

I don't agree with a lot of what he says but you should see the raging hatred on FB and the internet about him, these people oppose ANYTHING aversive in training, some even disagreed with me because I crate my dogs or because I practice NILF, or because I give my dogs time outs and make them work for the things they want. Hey, stuff ain't free, I don't walk into work and expect to get paid for nothing, I have to WORK for my money. why should dogs be any different? of course the "money" they work for is different for every dog


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