# Peas, Legumes & Pea Gluten in Dog Food



## ItalianDogz (May 16, 2013)

Help me to understand, why do US consumers and US dog food rating websites rate so highly foods with Pea Gluten?

This is a very bad ingredient. Peas, legumes and pea gluten are really nothing but a nicer way to say "soy".


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

IMO, mostly because the available alternatives are worse.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Flaming said:


> IMO, mostly because the available alternatives are worse.


Not necessarily. 

"pea protein" is pretty much "corn gluten" in prettier words. 

Chickpeas, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Green Peas, potato, etc are used as the "carbohydrate" which is needed to make kibble bind together. 

Chickpeas contain around 18% protein, lentils contain around 28% protein. Whole ground corn is 9% protein, for example. Rice, peas, oats, etc are similar numbers if I remember correctly. 

So basically, I don't see anything wrong with corn, peas, or rice, etc. It's really a matter of how they're used in the overall formula. If you see a food with 3 different legumes or pea-type ingredients in the first 10 ingredients, and if the food has high ash levels, then I'd be questioning how much protein is actually coming from animals. And while I'd prefer to avoid corn for my own personal reasons, I'd feed a formula with corn in it, so long as most of the protein was not coming from it and there wasn't "corn gluten meal' and "corn" etc high up on the ingredient list.

But a food being "grain-free" or "wheat, corn, soy free" etc is not always going to be superior.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

My coworker just told me yesterday that they fed their dog a whole baked potatoe with mashed KIDNEY BEANS for 10 years. Dog lived to be 16. That totally blew me away (dog aparantly had severe allergies its the only thing that they found that worked...).....


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> "pea protein" is pretty much "corn gluten" in prettier words.
> 
> ...


True but I find many dog foods with corn have it in the top 10 ingredients a little more often than corn free, though this isn't all of them, there are some corn inclusive that are above average.


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## ItalianDogz (May 16, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> "pea protein" is pretty much "corn gluten" in prettier words.
> 
> ...


Rice is much lower in protein like corn, 6-8%.

I think Americans need to get smarter. Pea Gluten is almost chemically the same as soy protein. Corn Gluten, while not meat protein, is safer than pea gluten.

I ask this because our friends in US use Fromm and my wife looked at it and said it was junk. She said it was close to a vegetable food. She would rather see potato, rice, farro, corn (if non-ogm) and oats in food if than legumes or pea gluten. The companies then must use more meat.

American pet food labels are bad, they allow bad companies to fool the consumer by not giving the weights.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Problem though: all non-organic corn and soy in the US are GMO :/. I guess some peas are GMO but not the majority. So that alone makes it a little better, IMO. But, yeah, I'd prefer to see barley, oats, or rice than peas. I don't like potatoes either, because nightshades can cause inflammation issues for some dogs.


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## ItalianDogz (May 16, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Problem though: all non-organic corn and soy in the US are GMO :/. I guess some peas are GMO but not the majority. So that alone makes it a little better, IMO. But, yeah, I'd prefer to see barley, oats, or rice than peas. I don't like potatoes either, because nightshades can cause inflammation issues for some dogs.


I am from Italy, born in the south, then moved north around the lakes region. Now we are moving to new york state for a while. In Italy and Europe we have no OMG grains and farming is much less modern and eating habits are more seasonal with very few imported foods. 

My wife says in a few years people will see how bad peas are for dogs when the level get high. I asked about potato she said that is not true. She is a professor and food chemist. The members of nightshades grown now are not like they were hundreds of years ago. You are referring to Solanine in nightshades. She said it does not exist in the fruit. It is a myth.

By the way we get our food from a friend, so she is happy.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Heh, well, I had an arthritic dog who always got worse if she had potatoes. . .and I've known people whose rheumatologists recommended they avoid tomatoes, potatoes, and eggplant as well. . .could be just them though.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

How much longer do dogs live in Europe verses dogs in the U.S./Canada? 

What diseases/problems do dogs get here verses in Europe?

I would think that if food is so bad here that there should be a huge difference in both.

I've owned 2 dogs in my adult life one which lived 12 1/2 years and another 12 years. Both died of cancer but it was 30 years apart. The Beagle was pretty healthy otherwise but had back issues and my last dog's only problem was she would get colitis when she ate beef; other than that she was very healthy until the day she died.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Dog Person said:


> How much longer do dogs live in Europe verses dogs in the U.S./Canada?
> 
> What diseases/problems do dogs get here verses in Europe?
> 
> ...


I don't have stats off hand but I do recall seeing something about dogs in Europe living longer. May have been related to spay/neutering though. I'll try to find it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm guessing, though, that commercially available pet foods in Europe aren't made with artisanal, small farm, locally sourced ingredients. I could be wrong and I don't know much about European commercial farming but I just kinda doubt it. Maybe European dogs in general tend to get more fresh meat, perhaps European dog owners haven't been shamed and bullied into not giving their dogs scraps and fresh foods.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I don't have stats off hand but I do recall seeing something about dogs in Europe living longer. May have been related to spay/neutering though. I'll try to find it.


I found this: http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...sible-reasons-dogs-live-longer-in-europe.aspx

It does say that spaying/neutering is believed to be a reason but it also says that kibble is pretty much the same.



Willowy said:


> I'm guessing, though, that commercially available pet foods in Europe aren't made with artisanal, small farm, locally sourced ingredients. I could be wrong and I don't know much about European commercial farming but I just kinda doubt it. Maybe European dogs in general tend to get more fresh meat, perhaps European dog owners haven't been shamed and bullied into not giving their dogs scraps and fresh foods.


I don't think it's ashamed or bullied, I think it's uninformed. I never heard of feeding raw before coming here, never heard of most of the foods that are available and believed that AAFCO was "it" when feeding dogs. I had no clue the difference in feeding my dog meat protein vs plant or by products were bad and I would guess most people don't know. I never heard of grain free until my sister mentioned it and I researched it and learned. Although I am feeding Zoey grain inclusive kibble it contains more meat and hopefully better protein sources than what I fed my last dog which ate Purina, Authority, Science Diet and Nutro. When a lot of pet foods were being recalled due to whatever reason my last dog was on Science Diet and it wasn't recalled ... I was a happy person. I know more now than I knew the same time last year, had my sister not mentioned grain free Zoey would probably be eating something other than what she is eating and I wouldn't have known the difference.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I maintain that Americans have been shamed and bullied into not feeding their dogs fresh foods. What do you think of, first thing, when you hear that someone feeds their dog "table scraps"?. . .(think about it). . .not good, right? We've been basically brainwashed into thinking that pets can only eat commercial foods, that feeding them "people food" is wrong, that our pets will get sick and OMG die if they don't eat special little food pellets. Try Googling "what should I feed my dog" and see how many of the sites tell you quite emphatically not to feed any "people food".

Haha, for fun I Googled that to make sure I was right. First one that came up says "Price adds that pet owners should buy food based on the appropriate life stage, particularly during those puppy years, and seek formulas specifically made for your breed." Second one says. . .OK, this one does have info on a home-cooked diet but discourages raw. Third one says: "Feed your dog the same type and brand of food every day. Unlike humans, a dog's digestive system cannot handle changes in food. It can cause upset stomach and diarrhea." Next one is a slideshow of Dangerous Foods Your Dog Should Never Eat!1!1!! , and tucked in with chocolate and raisins and xylitol. . .yup, raw meat. 

So, yes, I think Americans have been shamed and bullied into not feeding their pets fresh foods. It would be like if everything you read about feeding your kid said to feed them Total cereal and TV dinners. . .nothing else! It's bad for them! Spinach has salmonella!


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

I can only speak of my own dog feeding, I don't give Zoey "human food" because I don"t want her to put her nose up to kibble. There are many times in my household where my wife and myself come home late and pick up fast food for the family. Not the healthiest but it's part of our life so Zoey wouldn't get fresh foods on those days. I could pick up a roasted chicken and mix it into her kibble but I'm saving that for if and when she stops eating her kibble and can't be enticed by anything else. When we go on vacation she is kenneled and kibble is what is easiest to feed her. I wouldn't feed raw because quite honestly I don't want to spend the money and learn what I would need to know. If she did need to eat it then I would do it, again I would hold off until it's my last resort.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Willowy, I totally agree with you 100%. We have been bullied into believing we must feed our dog, only dog food and nothing else cause of there digestive systems etc. My dog's poop had improved in texture 100% since I have been feeding home cooked meals. He also no longer skoots his butt on the floor. I am not sure nor have I researched but I would think that maybe way back in the depression days people could not afford to feed there dogs, people food. It was hard enough feeding the family let alone worrying about the family pet. I think it came into existence as a cheap way to have and feed a dog. It had nothing to do with the dogs digestive system.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think people in the Depression could afford to feed pets at all . 

But, yeah, kibble was mainly developed for convenience (it's definitely more convenient!) and as a way to use up the by-products of human food production. And because it's made from stuff that would otherwise be thrown away, it's cheaper than fresh foods. And a lot of people used to add fresh foods and scraps to their dog's kibble. But somewhere along the way, someone decided that dogs can't have that kind of stuff, and it just sort of became part of our collective consciousness.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

ItalianDogz said:


> Rice is much lower in protein like corn, 6-8%.
> 
> I think Americans need to get smarter. Pea Gluten is almost chemically the same as soy protein. Corn Gluten, while not meat protein, is safer than pea gluten.
> 
> ...


Since you aren't a fan of Fromm in general from your other posts, is there a kibble that is sold in the US, and grain-free that you recommend instead (my dog is allergic to wheat and barley and has to have grain-free)? Because I have never come across a grain-free food with low ash levels that does not include peas, pea protein, or legumes in some manner. Even Orijen, which is considered by many a great food and is grain-free, includes green peas, chickpeas, lentils, etc. 

Or are you saying every food that is available in the US is bad by your standards?


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> Since you aren't a fan of Fromm in general from your other posts, is there a kibble that is sold in the US, and grain-free that you recommend instead (my dog is allergic to wheat and barley and has to have grain-free)? Because I have never come across a grain-free food with low ash levels that does not include peas, pea protein, or legumes in some manner. Even Orijen, which is considered by many a great food and is grain-free, includes green peas, chickpeas, lentils, etc.
> 
> Or are you saying every food that is available in the US is bad by your standards?


Annamaet or Dr. Tim's grain free. Both are low ash. 

Oh wait, just looking, there are field peas lol 

But I highly recommend Annamaet  Dr. Tim's too, really. But my frenchie who was on raw and doing only mediocre, has really been improving since being on Annamaet. 

http://www.annamaet.com/html/annamaet_grain_free_dog_food.html


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I don't think people in the Depression could afford to feed pets at all .
> 
> But, yeah, kibble was mainly developed for convenience (it's definitely more convenient!) and as a way to use up the by-products of human food production. And because it's made from stuff that would otherwise be thrown away, it's cheaper than fresh foods. And a lot of people used to add fresh foods and scraps to their dog's kibble. But somewhere along the way, someone decided that dogs can't have that kind of stuff, and it just sort of became part of our collective consciousness.


I def feel its ok to feed your dogs the leftovers of healthy meals-- my dogs finished my daughters scrambled eggs and toast this AM! No complaints (except the chickens probably would have enjoyed that as well)...WHy compost perfectly edible food? I just cut back on their kibble in the Pm if they have had alot to eat earlier in the day..


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I wouldn't sweat actual peas, just stay away from the concentrated pea protein. Suspect they still provide a whole lot of protein as nutritiondata shows dry split peas have 25% protein and probably peas going into dog food are about the same.

What about a potato kibble or sweet potato kibble?


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## ItalianDogz (May 16, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> I wouldn't sweat actual peas, just stay away from the concentrated pea protein. Suspect they still provide a whole lot of protein as nutritiondata shows dry split peas have 25% protein and probably peas going into dog food are about the same.
> 
> What about a potato kibble or sweet potato kibble?


All whole peas in dog food are dried peas, yellow or green. They are high in protein but not like Pea Gluten which can be as high as 90%. Potato is very low in protein, only 2%. Potato is much better in high protein food, then you know where the protein comes from, its not potato. In lower protein foods like 25% I prefer whole grain rice, farro, oats and non-gmo corn. I don't think Americans are that familiar with farro, it grows in Europe without fertlizer or pesticides. 

Sweet potato I am sure is healthy for a normal dog but it is very high in oxilates that can cause stones in some dogs.

Some food companies are very lucky that the US rules don't make them disclose the weights of the ingredients in the food or where the protein comes from. It would be very bad for them, trust me.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Okay, this is driving me crazy. Just to set the record straight, "gluten" is not synonymous with plant protein and actually refers to a specific compound of a particular molecular make-up, which is a composite of the molecules gliadin and glutenin. These two proteins are are normally separated within the cell but stick together when cells are damaged (such as in chewing or milling), forming "gluten".

Gluten is only found in grasses in the genus _Triticum _ (i.e. commonly wheat, rye, oats, barley, and spelt). While corn is technically a (very mutated) grass, it does not belong to that genus, and it does not produce gluten. Peas, as legumes, do NOT belong to the grass family and also do not produce gluten.


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## ItalianDogz (May 16, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> Okay, this is driving me crazy. Just to set the record straight, "gluten" is not synonymous with plant protein and actually refers to a specific compound of a particular molecular make-up, which is a composite of the molecules gliadin and glutenin. These two proteins are are normally separated within the cell but stick together when cells are damaged (such as in chewing or milling), forming "gluten".
> 
> Gluten is only found in grasses in the genus _Triticum _ (i.e. commonly wheat, rye, oats, barley, and spelt). While corn is technically a (very mutated) grass, it does not belong to that genus, and it does not produce gluten. Peas, as legumes, do NOT belong to the grass family and also do not produce gluten.


You are right. But the term "gluten" is a trade name for concentrated vegetable protein. The terms corn gluten and rice gluten are commonly used and neither have true gluten. The point is that some very expensive foods uses a very cheap form of protein because people think of peas as good and corn and wheat as bad. These foods also have names that don't reflect what is actually in the food. I would like to see them call the foods "blank blank Salmon and Powdered Pea Protein". Would that food sell at $90 euros a bag, doubt it.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

ItalianDogz said:


> You are right. But the term "gluten" is a trade name for concentrated vegetable protein. The terms corn gluten and rice gluten are commonly used and neither have true gluten. The point is that some very expensive foods uses a very cheap form of protein because people think of peas as good and corn and wheat as bad. These foods also have names that don't reflect what is actually in the food. I would like to see them call the foods "blank blank Salmon and Powdered Pea Protein". Would that food sell at $90 euros a bag, doubt it.


I understand your point (and agree with it, mostly). It just bothers me how companies have decided that they can take well defined terms and used them in ways that are completely oblivious to the original meaning of the word, especially since we live in a world that is quickly becoming obsessed with (true) gluten and the apparently increase in sensitivity, intolerance, and allergy to it. What is wrong with calling it corn (maize) protein, or pea protein? Its the same number of syllables, and one extra letter.


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