# German Shepherd vs. Border collie



## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

After my velcro dog thread I am being drawn more and more to GSDs.

In a couple of years I will be looking at getting another dog.
I was planning on getting a Border Collie but now Im thinking I may want a German Shepherd. 

I need more info!

I want a dog with a high drive.
I want to compete in obedience, agility, herding and if its a GSD hopefully schutzhund.
I want an intense dog, that wants to work with me.
I want a 'one man' dog who loves me above all others, but still loves his family.
I want a dog that will be reliable off leash
I want a dog that wants to do what i say just because I want it to, not just because I bribe it lol.
I want a dog with intense focus, Cash is great but has little focus on me or what we are doing. 
I want a dog that is good with other dogs, kids and cats (with training of course)

I don't mind shedding
I am keen for heaps of exercise
I will be finding an amazing breeder
I will be getting a male dog 

What breed is better for me?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

foxthegoldfish said:


> After my velcro dog thread I am being drawn more and more to GSDs.
> 
> In a couple of years I will be looking at getting another dog.
> I was planning on getting a Border Collie but now Im thinking I may want a German Shepherd.
> ...


All of the above works for BCs, GSDs, and many other breeds depending on how you train them and how they're bred. Good intense focus belongs to a lot of dogs, but it depends on how you train them and what you train them to focus ON


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Lindensay said:


> Probably German shepherd will be most perfect pet dog for us for eagerness and I love that lot.


Have you seen a BC recently?


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I think both breeds would work fine for what you want. The only thing that makes me lean towards a BC is that you want to compete in agility. In my experience, the best agility dogs are right around 30-35 pounds, which would pretty much rule out a GSD. It also rules out plenty of larger BC's, btw. That's not to say that there aren't some GSD's who are GREAT at agility - there are plenty - just that you're less likely to make it to the very upper levels of competition with such a large dog. Also, BC's are the elite herders, so if you plan to do that competitively (and I don't mean AKC "herding"), then a BC would probably be best.

I initially hoped that Kit would gain another ~10 pounds or so after I adopted her. She was only 7 months, so I expected her to do some more growing. She didn't. Now that she's turning into a great sports dog, I can't tell you how happy I am that she's ~40lbs instead of ~50, and sometimes I wish she was a little smaller. I'm putting a firm cap of 40lbs on my next dog.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Just buying these breeds does not bring you rin tin tin or lassie and I think your image may not be as easy to fulfill as you think.


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## Husky+BC Mom (Jul 13, 2010)

You have described nearly every dog/breed i've owned. 

Border Collies and GSDs both fit those descriptions well. Serious training is involved, obviously. And they don't come perfect ready-to-go out of the box. Also, just because it's from a good breeder/lines/stock whatever doesn't guarantee you anything. Nothing is a guarantee.


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## 3Lab (Jun 4, 2010)

I think either breed would be ideal for you, however, you're going to end up with a dog that has the potential to have all of those traits, but you're the one whose going to have to do the work to train the dog to use those traits properly and in the ways you want.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I think you really need to meet some of these dogs. While your list could really go either way, BCs and GSDs are really different dogs. For most sport work, I would take the BC because they're smaller, like GLM pointed out. 

Also, don't think either breed won't blow you off if they feel like it. Yes, they're handler-focused and "biddable," but they're also high drive breeds and the best performance dogs have drives that go beyond pleasing the handler.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the input 
I know it will take a lot of work to get those things out of a dog, that they don't come ready made out of a box 
But I know some breeds are more likely to have these traits than others.
Im really pleased that either dog will work for the things I listed, but it only makes the decision harder....

A few more questions;
Apart from size what are the key differences between BC and GSD?
I mainly want to compete in Obedience (with some other stuff thrown in) does this make a difference?

Im keen to put all the work possible in!


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## 3Lab (Jun 4, 2010)

If you're looking for an obedience dog, mostly, I'd probably stay away from the BC. Formal obedience (not rally) is a bit more "robotic" and a high drive BC is probably not going to like it. At least, this is an assumption I'm making. I'd think a GSD would be a better candidate for obedience, however, if that is your goal I think other breeds would suit you better--perhaps a Labrador, Boxer, other sporting dogs, and other, less intense, working dogs.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I know lots of BC that do obedience, Im planning on doing other activities with them too. 
My dream breed is a BC, I have just started liking GSDs more so Im a bit confused.

I want to do lots with my next dog.


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## Husky+BC Mom (Jul 13, 2010)

BCs can handle OB just fine. Seamus was going to be my "sport" dog, but since his knees aren't up to par we're doing OB. He loves it.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I think it's important to remember that there's going to be a LOT of variation between individuals of any breed, and probably more variation among individuals in these breeds because they're bred for something other than conformation. I'm sure there are plenty of BCs and GSDs out there that are EXACTLY what you're looking for. But choosing a puppy and then hoping it turns out how you want is a huge crap shoot, IMO, even if you're putting in all the work. Sure, you might get lucky. Or you might get a lemon, so to speak.

I know that you said that you want to go to a good breeder for this dog. I fully understand your reasons for wanting to go that route. But for any dog with an intended purpose (i.e. sports, search and rescue, therapy, whatever), I think you're most likely to get what you want if you hand pick exactly what you're looking for from a large group of older (i.e. not 8 week old) dogs. Fortunately, rescue gives you the opportunity to do just that. All other benefits aside (saving a life, not adding to overpopulation, cost, etc.), I STILL think rescue is the better choice unless you're looking for a show prospect, because what you see is what you get.


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## 3Lab (Jun 4, 2010)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I think it's important to remember that there's going to be a LOT of variation between individuals of any breed, and probably more variation among individuals in these breeds because they're bred for something other than conformation. I'm sure there are plenty of BCs and GSDs out there that are EXACTLY what you're looking for. But choosing a puppy and then hoping it turns out how you want is a huge crap shoot, IMO, even if you're putting in all the work. Sure, you might get lucky. Or you might get a lemon, so to speak.
> 
> I know that you said that you want to go to a good breeder for this dog. I fully understand your reasons for wanting to go that route. But for any dog with an intended purpose (i.e. sports, search and rescue, therapy, whatever), I think you're most likely to get what you want if you hand pick exactly what you're looking for from a large group of older (i.e. not 8 week old) dogs. Fortunately, rescue gives you the opportunity to do just that. All other benefits aside (saving a life, not adding to overpopulation, cost, etc.), I STILL think rescue is the better choice unless you're looking for a show prospect, because what you see is what you get.


Totally agree, looking at older rescues, is probably the best route.

I only said a BC might not like Obedience, simply because, the OP seems to be looking for a super drivey-dog, and I guess in my opinion, a dog like that would be better suited for agility, herding, etc. That's not to say the dog can't do obedience, however, if that is the main priority, maybe a GSD? But I think a rescue would be the best route. Heck, the OP might find a mix of the two in rescue...best of both worlds? (Not always, but perhaps).


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

One big difference between Nash (current GSD) and Lucky (BCX I grew up with) is that Nash is much more touchy feely. He wants me to hug him and pet him and he always wants to touch me. The other big difference is that Nash is much more vocal . . . and he stays "up" more, Lucky crouched a lot, lol. Nash is male and Lucky was female. Lucky tended to kind of keep a bit of a distance from me and watch me intently, she was always with me, just not . . . ontop of me, which is what Nash would do if I let him, he would be in my lap any time we were not moving about actively.


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## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Anytime you have a herd breed, you find two things. A super high drive dog that excels at agility and herding, or a more "ho-hum" dog who is better at Obedience. 
My male Aussie is high drive, and does not take too well to obedience. He does excel at herding and agility,however.
You just need to find a reputable breeder and find someone to evaluate the pup for agility potential if thats the route you want to go.
Good luck.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The biggest difference between the two breeds are in agility and herding. Herding with a BC is driving live stock (mostly) and herding with a GSD is tending. Tending requires a LOT more sheep (typical flock start at 100 head). In agility the BC excels. Both excel at obedience (many many OTCH chasers have BC's due to their intense, nearly obsessive focus). 

Loyalty and being a one person dog is the GSD... yet I have one that is not that way (individualism counts). I think the GSD is a better family dog (but there are many family BC's so it does not always hold true). 

Agility training and BC style herding is easier to access in most of the US and in most of the US Agility is less expensive to do than herding. 

Last but not least over all statistics have BC's living longer than GSD's (15 years as opposed to 10 or11). That being said, my last GSD was nearly 14 when she went over the bridge.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

If agility is very important to you it would not be very suitable to the gsd if you expect competeing.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

As a general trend I've seen among working line male GSDs (which is what you want), they tend to be more dominant and don't like other males from what I've heard, read, and seen. I know there are many instances where this is not true as with most things, but it is something you'll need to consider a possibility. I think you'd have better luck with your dog and a BC, personally. There will be a larger difference in size, too.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

oh my, is there something wrong with gsds like mine? showlines? do you mean they cannot be the dog described or a good working dog?


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the info!
It is all very interesting and I will be owning both breeds one day.
I love that dogs are all individuals, I would love what ever dog I got.
Rescue is a route I would consider, but only with the BC, poorly bred GSD can have WAY too many problems for me (hips, temperament, etc etc) esp if I get a GSD I would want to do schutzhund, I wouldn't want to risk a rescue that could have major problems.
I may get a rescue BC (or mix) for my next dog, but we will see how it goes.

Agility would be with a BC and schutzhund with a GSD

I would want to do obedience with either.

This has given me lots to think about 
I have always wanted a BC and will probably end up getting on for my next dog, but I want to consider other options


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

BC's Rock at Obedience. They Rule it in some venues much like they do Herding, Some Agility classes, etc.

What is your experience level? 

You can go from medium drive to very high drive, experienced handler dogs with both those breeds. And some of the BCs can be off the charts. 

Another option if you are up to the task is the ACD.....

I don't go reccommending ACDs lightly. But a couple of things... You mentioned One Man Dog that still loves the family. That statement was written for the ACD. I always tell people if your ACD runs away, you need to take al long hard look at your life. 

The other great thing.about ACD's is that there is no confusion between show, sport, working lines. 

With ACDs there are only good lines and poor lines. The good lines do it all.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

foxthegoldfish said:


> Rescue is a route I would consider, but only with the BC, poorly bred GSD can have WAY too many problems for me (hips, temperament, etc etc) esp if I get a GSD I would want to do schutzhund, I wouldn't want to risk a rescue that could have major problems.


I think I'd agree with that sentiment. For this reason, there are very few purebreds I'd consider owning. For me, BC's would be one major exception to this rule. Because they're mostly bred for herding ability, there's still a lot of genetic variation out there (at least relatively speaking), and this protects them from all kinds of horrible genetic conditions. There's no guarantee that any rescue dog is going to be healthy, but you've got a better shot with a BC, IMO.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Yvonne said:


> oh my, is there something wrong with gsds like mine? showlines? do you mean they cannot be the dog described or a good working dog?


Is this in reply to my post? Because I made no comment about your dog or showlines and I'm not going to. Thank you.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I think I'd agree with that sentiment. For this reason, there are very few purebreds I'd consider owning. For me, BC's would be one major exception to this rule. Because they're mostly bred for herding ability, there's still a lot of genetic variation out there (at least relatively speaking), and this protects them from all kinds of horrible genetic conditions. There's no guarantee that any rescue dog is going to be healthy, but you've got a better shot with a BC, IMO.


Actually breeding for one thing..... (anything including herding ability) tends to create a genetic bottleneck and increases chances of issues. 
You have to look at the lines and what testing the breeder is doing. Well Bred is well bred, and while some breeds are more prone to genetic issues than others, If you do your homework, your chances are very good of getting a sound dog. Better than with a mixed breed or rescue. Many genetic issues cross breed lines.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

> Is this in reply to my post? Because I made no comment about your dog or showlines and I'm not going to. Thank you.


I finally asked you because in just about every gsd thread since I have joined you have made those comments. I have a feeling the lines I have have more working titles in my showlines than working line dogs on these forums and yet working line owners always have to comment to people these kinds of comments and yes they offend me.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Yvonne said:


> I finally asked you because in just about every gsd thread since I have joined you have made those comments. I have a feeling the lines I have have more working titles in my showlines than working line dogs on these forums and yet working line owners always have to comment to people these kinds of comments and yes they offend me.


wth? What comments have I made that offend you? I didn't say anything derrogatory(sp?) and I don't think anything derrogatory. And I rarely post much in ANY GSD thread just because I DON'T know enough about them.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> I finally asked you because in just about every gsd thread since I have joined you have made those comments. I have a feeling* the lines I have have more working titles in my showlines than working line dogs on these forums *and yet working line owners always have to comment to people these kinds of comments and yes they offend me.


Uh... what? I could not understand that part at all.

For the record, I didn't see anything offensive about DJEtzel's post. I don't even think she mentioned show lines, just that the OP wanted a working line dog...


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## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Honestly, 
Even if the dog comes from a show line, some may be very high drive.
The puppy needs to be evaluated on a case to case basis.
Best to check pedigree as well to see.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Agree with the above. There is a large difference between type and lines in every breed. Research and get a feel for that first. I'm not sure what your decision is regarding show lines vs. working lines, but know what you want and what you'll be getting, and don't write off anything because of simple blanket statements.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Actually breeding for one thing..... (anything including herding ability) tends to create a genetic bottleneck and increases chances of issues.
> You have to look at the lines and what testing the breeder is doing. Well Bred is well bred, and while some breeds are more prone to genetic issues than others, If you do your homework, your chances are very good of getting a sound dog. Better than with a mixed breed or rescue. Many genetic issues cross breed lines.


We've been thru this a bunch of times on DF, so I'd rather not rehash it with you. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.


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## 3Lab (Jun 4, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> The biggest difference between the two breeds are in agility and herding. Herding with a BC is driving live stock (mostly) and herding with a GSD is tending. Tending requires a LOT more sheep (typical flock start at 100 head). In agility the BC excels. Both excel at obedience (many many OTCH chasers have BC's due to their intense, nearly obsessive focus).
> 
> Loyalty and being a one person dog is the GSD... yet I have one that is not that way (individualism counts). I think the GSD is a better family dog (but there are many family BC's so it does not always hold true).
> 
> ...


Life span is certainly a factor for me when looking at breeds, so I think you brough up a great point.



JohnnyBandit said:


> BC's Rock at Obedience. They Rule it in some venues much like they do Herding, Some Agility classes, etc.
> 
> What is your experience level?
> 
> ...


I guess in my area I tend to see a lot less BC's doing obedience, so I kind of made the assumption. I think that is cool that their intense focus can be channeled into something that requires composure and stability. Very neat. I bet they are fun to watch in the OB ring.

I LOVE ACD's, and they are high on our list for our next dog.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

ACDs are so cool  but I just don't like their looks (not the most important thing but important)

I think a BC will be my next dog but after that will come a GSD.
I can't make up my mind and will hopefully be able to get a rescue BC 

Which one is more of a one man dog? 
I don't like labs as they adore everyone ( a great trait, but not something Im after)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

GSDs are one man dogs, BCs tend to be indiscriminate attention whores.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

My last rainbow bridge dog was shep/husky mix. After him, I said.."pure-bred Gsd, or NOTHING"...PERIOD!!..(ok, ok, so I now have 2 paps...obvioulsy SOMETHING went wrong there-blames the DH)
I AM a GSD "lover" to the core...I have more respect & awe for that breed than any other. In my eyes, a GSD can do no wrong, &, in stating that, I do realize that I am being 100% biased. Just can't help, nor erase the fact that the BEST dog that I have ever had the privilege to have owned just happened to have ALOT of shep in him. He was amazing. Remarkable. He was not even "pure", but, he sold me - hook, line, & sinker as to what a spectacular GSD mix was all about!! I STILL love my Maxx to bits!!
I vote -GSP all the way..(again, I am VERY biased)


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Thats what i thought, thats why i was thinking GSD, I want a one man dog.
I still don't know.....

I love my BCs but I also love the idea of a GSD

I will get one or the other.......

Any other important differences to help me make up my mind?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I can tell you a GSD is a far more serious dog than a Border Collie


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I like serious dogs 
Another plus for GSD

I love less serious dogs too, but serious dogs are awesome


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## Husky+BC Mom (Jul 13, 2010)

I would advise against a rescue of either breed. Unless the rescue is checking hips/knees/elbows... Which I highly doubt they will. Seamus was a rescue I had high hopes for, he is unable to even run on grass without creating serious pain for himself. Especially with the issues that come about with GSDs hips and the horrible "american show line" look they've got going for them... Not trying to start a rep breeder/rescue argument, but if you're looking for a serious sport dog, rescue would probably not be the place to look.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

foxthegoldfish said:


> ACDs are so cool  but I just don't like their looks (not the most important thing but important)
> 
> I think a BC will be my next dog but after that will come a GSD.
> I can't make up my mind and will hopefully be able to get a rescue BC
> ...


The thing is, Auz is a GSD and he acts more like a lab when it comes to people. He is the poster child for attention whore  I've met plenty of BC's who seem to wish every other human being would drop off the face of the earth.



Husky+BC Mom said:


> I would advise against a rescue of either breed. Unless the rescue is checking hips/knees/elbows... Which I highly doubt they will. Seamus was a rescue I had high hopes for, he is unable to even run on grass without creating serious pain for himself. Especially with the issues that come about with GSDs hips and the horrible "american show line" look they've got going for them... Not trying to start a rep breeder/rescue argument, but if you're looking for a serious sport dog, rescue would probably not be the place to look.


I agree, for the most part. I'm not sure what the OP's sport training experience is, but if it's not much I would say a less "seriously driven" dog would be a good choice to learn with. I doubt I would have gotten very far training my first agility dog (Tag) if he was lightning fast and extremely high drive. The high drive works great in agility, but if not channeled properly it can turn into obsessive lunging, snarking, or just out of control zoomies, kwim? Not saying the OP shouldn't consider shelter dogs, rescue dogs, or a well bred breed of choice, it's just that sometimes taking your _own _ training and handling experience of the sport you're looking at into the equation is a smart thing to do.



3Lab said:


> Life span is certainly a factor for me when looking at breeds, so I think you brough up a great point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw some really awesome BC's doing both obedience and agility. The agility dogs were awesome, and the obedience dogs were awesome as well. I love that "eye" the use, even when heeling. 
I think like Elana stated in another training thread (the minimizing use of treats in training one), that if you can pair a good reinforcer with the work, the dog will learn to love the job. Most of the obedience dogs I see seem to be very happy doing what they're doing, which is what I love to watch


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I really think the only way you're going to resolve this question is to MEET the dogs, preferably several. On paper BCs and GSDs fill many of the same roles, but the temperaments and personalities are vastly different. It's not really a question of which dog is better for what you want to do, it's which one fits with you better. BCs are the unequivocal master sport dog, and if you serious about wanting to reach the highest levels of whatever sport, they're the go-to dog. I'm of the opinion that getting a BC with that goal in mind as your first serious sports dog is a pretty bad idea, it's easy to get seduced by the glamour and end up with a dog that is too much for your experience level.


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## 3Lab (Jun 4, 2010)

Xeph said:


> GSDs are one man dogs, BCs tend to be indiscriminate attention whores.


Hahaha, loved that, made me laugh!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> We've been thru this a bunch of times on DF, so I'd rather not rehash it with you. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.



I don't have to agree with anything. When you post mis information on a thread, I will counter. IF you did not want to rehash it, you should not have brought it up. What you really meant is that you did not want anyone to disagree with you. 



foxthegoldfish said:


> ACDs are so cool  but I just don't like their looks (not the most important thing but important)
> 
> I think a BC will be my next dog but after that will come a GSD.
> I can't make up my mind and will hopefully be able to get a rescue BC
> ...


The more you talk about what you like, the more you describe ACD's. 
ACDs are definately not love everyone dogs. The are supposed to be aloof and wary of strangers. They can be a bit of a goof with their owners but they get serious real quick when it is time to work.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I will consider ACDs thanks 
They do sound like what I want and I have liked the few I have met.

I have only met a handful of GSDs, all have been nice dogs but I haven't fallen in love with any of them.
Every BC I meet I want to take home, i just LOVE their personalities, looks, drive etc. 

I don't have that much experience with dog sports, Cash and I are training for obedience now and loving it, he just does not have the drive for agility (though we will probably do it just for fun).
I will probably be looking at a dog with medium-high drive (for these breeds) rather than the most drivey BC or the GSD with the most drive ever.

Its looking more and more like a BC will be my next dog, quite possibly a rescue. 
But ACDs are on my list to look at as well 

At training we have a dog who is a month older than Cash, he is a farm bred dog, collie x something.
I wish I could have him!
His owners are cool but he is their first dog and they don't know what to do with his drive. 
He is reactive and had huge herding instinct, I wish I could bring him home.

Then there are other rescue dogs i have met like Zephyr one of our fosters, she was too high energy for our situation at the time and is very happy in her new home, but I wish I had a dog like her again...

I love BCs through and through, I have never met one i didn't love.
I will most likely rescue a young dog (maybe a puppy) as there are always dogs needing homes.
But i would love to get a proper BC from a good breeder one day. I love their looks, and you don't usually get that in a mix.

Here are some rescue dogs I want lol

















love this boy


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I have only met a handful of GSDs, all have been nice dogs but I haven't fallen in love with any of them.


Honestly, it's probably because they didn't fawn all over you. A GSD will (generally) not do that to a person they don't know. They will allow themselves to be touched, but they're really not interested in any interaction with somebody outside of their family.

Owning a GSD a meeting somebody else's are two entirely different things. Heck, I KNOW what GSDs are like, and when I went to the E-party, even I felt "insulted" that the other dogs didn't want to say hi to me. They tolerated me touching them, but their people were who they were into.

It's a normal feeling.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I know what you mean, its hard that you cant get to know what they are like with their owners unless you own one.
I would love to own a GSD and a BC, but I can't decide what one to get first


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I think I'd agree with that sentiment. For this reason, there are very few purebreds I'd consider owning. For me, BC's would be one major exception to this rule. Because they're mostly bred for herding ability, there's still a lot of genetic variation out there (at least relatively speaking), and this protects them from all kinds of horrible genetic conditions. There's no guarantee that any rescue dog is going to be healthy, but you've got a better shot with a BC, IMO.


Actually that's less and less the case even in the working lines. Try finding a working dog in the US that DOESN'T go back to Wiston Cap. The trial lines are being bottle-necked just as bad as the show dogs.


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## Darcystheone (Apr 30, 2008)

As an ACD owner, I can tell you, you are describing my dog to a T. While I find it completely unbelievable that anyone out there doesn't find my Darcy to be drop dead gorgeous, lol I understand seeing the looks of a dog and just not being into it. I just think in all honesty that this is the breed for you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> I really think the only way you're going to resolve this question is to MEET the dogs, preferably several. On paper BCs and GSDs fill many of the same roles, but the temperaments and personalities are vastly different. It's not really a question of which dog is better for what you want to do, it's which one fits with you better. BCs are the unequivocal master sport dog, and if you serious about wanting to reach the highest levels of whatever sport, they're the go-to dog. I'm of the opinion that getting a BC with that goal in mind as your first serious sports dog is a pretty bad idea, it's easy to get seduced by the glamour and end up with a dog that is too much for your experience level.





> I agree, for the most part. I'm not sure what the OP's sport training experience is, but if it's not much I would say a less "seriously driven" dog would be a good choice to learn with.


Agree! So many people go out and get a BC to start with then end up over their heads. My advice is to start training with the dogs you have NOW before moving on to a BC. That is if you haven't already. 

Personally I've had a GSDx and a very very atypical BC cross. I'm hoping to get my first purebred BC (rescue or working line) in a couple years. I much prefer BCs to GSDs although I do love shepherds.

They're really not at all the same. BCs vary a lot as well. Some of the working line dogs I've met are very serious and very hard dogs. It really depends on the lines and what they're being bred for.

Though I'm not sure what BCs you guys have met that are all attention whores. Most I meet are very discriminating between their people and other people. Most herders I've found are not all that touchy-feely.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Im going to be training my dogs for the next few years before adding another dog.
I wont be getting in over my head, Ill just wait until I am 100% ready.

Im going to have to look at ACDs, GSDs and BCs lots more.

A couple of questions for ACD people, i have heard of a few that can be quite protective of their people, to the point of almost being aggressive and i have heard that they aren't great with other dogs?
Being good with other dogs and not being aggressive are very important to me, I want a dog that doesn't care much about strangers, rather than one that feels the need to keep them away (unless of course I don't like them)
Any input would be great.
Also my SO likes their looks


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I don't have to agree with anything. When you post mis information on a thread, I will counter. IF you did not want to rehash it, you should not have brought it up. What you really meant is that you did not want anyone to disagree with you.


Thanks for putting words in my mouth. What I REALLY meant was that if anyone cared enough to go searching, they'd find plenty of threads on DF where you and I have debated this topic before. I simply don't feel like typing it all over again. Nor do I think it's particularly polite to jack the OP's thread. So I won't. No matter what, we're not going to agree, so I'm done arguing this point with you here. 

"Indiscriminate attention whore" would describe Kit to a T. I swear she's worse than any lab I've ever met. But I've known plenty of BC's who think their owner is God and wish eveyone else would just go away. Again, dogs are individuals, and that's one reason why I think that looking at plenty of older dogs (at least not little puppies) and hand-picking exactly what you want is the way to go. I'd agree that on the whole, the GSD's I've met are more serious than the BC's, but that's just on average - I know a few BC's who are very serious. Nothing but work matters to them. Kit's definitely not one of them, though.

As for Lazy and Raegan's comments on drivey BC's as first sports dogs...yes, that drive can be very frustrating at times (see my comments in the Agility Classes thread for more details). It will definitely take us longer to get to trial than it would if she had less drive, or if I knew what the **** I was doing. But would I want Kit with less drive? Never in a million years. Managing her drive is my one big challenge in agility (she loves the equipment, has no fear, ignores the other dogs, etc.), and I love working on that with her. Her enthusiasm is rather contagious.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

foxthegoldfish said:


> Im going to be training my dogs for the next few years before adding another dog.
> I wont be getting in over my head, Ill just wait until I am 100% ready.
> 
> Im going to have to look at ACDs, GSDs and BCs lots more.
> ...


They are protective and fearless. Their reputation comes from people that do not work with their dogs. They are naturally aloof and wary of strangers. You have to socialize them a bit. A trained socialized ACD is GREAT!!!!!
They are a watch dog you never have to lock up. They play off of you and pattern their world. They have an uncanny knack for reading their owners and situations. If you came to my house, knocked on the door, and I let you in. My dog would be fine with you. You bang on the house late at night (when I am not likely expecting anyone) His reaction will be much different. It is the same if you are out and about. You meet people you want to meet and are relaxed, they are good to go. Someone creeps you out, you can bet your ACD is going to be keeping an eye on them. 

As far as other dogs..... Again, it is how you raise them.  They generally play well with other dogs if they are used to it. The trick is, ACD's tend to play at a whole different level. It can scare dog owners that are not used to it. All of my ACD's play well. Merlin plays with all shapes and sizes of dogs. Even puppies. He actually likes puppies a lot. The only dogs that it is really dicey with is intact males he does not know.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the input, ACDs sound like my cup of tea
But I still love my BCs

I think the next 3 dogs Ill own are GSD, BC, ACD
I just have no idea what order.....

ACD sound like what I want, but their looks just never jumped out at me, I love longer coats, Goldens, Border collies, German shepherds all have the kind of coat I love.

I can't wait to meet more dogs of each breed esp ACD.
Maybe showing me some pictures of nice ACDs will help


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)




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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> As for Lazy and Raegan's comments on drivey BC's as first sports dogs...yes, that drive can be very frustrating at times (see my comments in the Agility Classes thread for more details). It will definitely take us longer to get to trial than it would if she had less drive, or if I knew what the **** I was doing. But would I want Kit with less drive? Never in a million years. Managing her drive is my one big challenge in agility (she loves the equipment, has no fear, ignores the other dogs, etc.), and I love working on that with her. Her enthusiasm is rather contagious.


I just think it's easier to learn on a dog with enough drive but not too too much. I have one of both I'm running right now. Mia is way more frustrating than Summer is. Summer was a fabulous dog to learn with- drivery enough to not walk the course (which I see a lot and would annoy me endlessly lol). But she's not going to go flying off the handle and take a bunch of random obstacles. She's very fun and responsive and overall easy to work with.

Mia is a different type. She's one of those that has barely started and is already tensing and quivering on the start line. 3rd week of class she went off and just zipped over a string of obstacles that were set at Std Poodle height. Everyone else in the class (there's only 3 dogs) is working on getting their dogs to do the obstacles and I'm sitting there working on getting her to NOT do them without thought. I'm there with the 6 lb loony dog that is flailing on the end of the leash trying to get over that A-frame. So it's frustrating because I have to stop and work focus while everyone else is doing 'real' agility. I think handling a Mia without having first handled a Summer would have been very difficult for me.

You see the BCs flying off course a lot over here. I've been around enough people who went out and got a high drive BC for agility to know that some people see the drive and then want the good aspects of it but don't realize the amount of WORK it takes to successfully train these kinds of dogs. Get a BC because you want a BC and all that entails. Don't get one because they're the 'fastest, best' sports dogs. This ends badly a lot of times.

Johnny I really want an ACD in the further future once I have more dog experience. They're great dogs but are a LOT of dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Thanks for putting words in my mouth. What I REALLY meant was that if anyone cared enough to go searching, they'd find plenty of threads on DF where you and I have debated this topic before. I simply don't feel like typing it all over again. Nor do I think it's particularly polite to jack the OP's thread. So I won't. No matter what, we're not going to agree, so I'm done arguing this point with you here.



Fair enough..... I had no desire to start a pissing match with you and would have let it go in the first place had your response to me not come across as aggressive.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

As far as genetic diversity and BCs I guess it depends on what you define as 'working'. I don't know all that much about real farmers down the road and how their diversity stands up but the trial line breeders do often seem to have the same popular sire issues the show people can have. Like I said, Wiston Cap is behind almost all modern American working border collies.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Johnny I really want an ACD in the further future once I have more dog experience. They're great dogs but are a LOT of dog.


Yes they are. But are a ton of fun for the right person.

A few more.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I want a BC because I want a BC and everything that comes with it.
I don't really care that they are the fastest, the best etc etc (more than accepting it)
Im not getting one because they are the best dog for sport, that is a bonus but the last thing on my list. Any dog can be good at sport if you work them right.
I just really want a BC, I love them to bits and Im willing and able to achieve their exercise and mental needs.

Cash has no drive, on our walks he walks slowly just wandering along. 
You get him into a down stay (his favorite thing) and he just lays on his side eating grass waiting for you to return.
Trying to get him excited doesn't work......

Very nice ACDs, they look so happy 
Im growing more and more fond of them and will have to own one soon.

Its seeming like a rescue BC will be my next dog, I love to rescue


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## Darcystheone (Apr 30, 2008)

Some pics of my ACD girl. . The first time I saw an ACD, it was love at first sighte for me. Our new puppy is actually and ACD/Border collie mix, shes an interesting girl so far.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

I love my daughter's border collie/cattle dog mix. Mel is a great dog.








Here she is in the mountains with my daughter.


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## Darcystheone (Apr 30, 2008)

agility collie mom said:


> I love my daughter's border collie/cattle dog mix. Mel is a great dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is Stunning!


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks. I never worry when my daughter is doing field work (ornithology) because Mel will protect her. She is a wonderful dog!


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

She is stunning 
More my kind of dog, just a little longer hair etc


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

agility collie mom said:


> Thanks. I never worry when my daughter is doing field work (ornithology) because Mel will protect her. She is a wonderful dog!


She is a good looking dog. We see a fair number of ACD/BC crosses. It is sometimes done intentionally.

On the drive thing.... I like drive. The more the better. I think the mistake many folks make with very high drive dogs is they start training them for sport or work before they have really gotten into their head.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I think that before you start training for sport or work you need to work on a basic obedience and making a bond with your dog. 
Most important is teaching then to listen to you.

I love this girl, she is a ACD x BC
She is up for adoption and used to be at my training class


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I just think it's easier to learn on a dog with enough drive but not too too much. I have one of both I'm running right now. Mia is way more frustrating than Summer is. Summer was a fabulous dog to learn with- drivery enough to not walk the course (which I see a lot and would annoy me endlessly lol). But she's not going to go flying off the handle and take a bunch of random obstacles. She's very fun and responsive and overall easy to work with.
> 
> Mia is a different type. She's one of those that has barely started and is already tensing and quivering on the start line. 3rd week of class she went off and just zipped over a string of obstacles that were set at Std Poodle height. Everyone else in the class (there's only 3 dogs) is working on getting their dogs to do the obstacles and I'm sitting there working on getting her to NOT do them without thought. I'm there with the 6 lb loony dog that is flailing on the end of the leash trying to get over that A-frame. So it's frustrating because I have to stop and work focus while everyone else is doing 'real' agility. I think handling a Mia without having first handled a Summer would have been very difficult for me.


Add 34 pounds and you have Kit. You can understand why I'm sometimes frustrated, mostly because I'm still a beginner and don't have the experience to know how to handle this sort of dog on an agility course. At least not well. The dogs in our class are mostly lacking drive, though. I definitely prefer too much to too little drive.

It's true that you have to get inside their head before you start trying to do anything with them. Kit was enrolled in a basic obedience class 2 weeks after she was mine (she practically failed - LOL), but I waited almost a full year to enroll her in an agility class. For a long time, we lacked the control necessary for sports. It's still a battle, but we've improved by leaps and bounds (no pun intended).

The BC x ACD cross is goreous! I've had that cross on my list for a while now.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

She is super cute and only has a stump tail lol

Too much drive would be a pain but not enough drive would be worse for me.

I can't wait for my higher drive dog!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Add 34 pounds and you have Kit. You can understand why I'm sometimes frustrated, mostly because I'm still a beginner and don't have the experience to know how to handle this sort of dog on an agility course. At least not well. The dogs in our class are mostly lacking drive, though. I definitely prefer too much to too little drive.
> 
> It's true that you have to get inside their head before you start trying to do anything with them. Kit was enrolled in a basic obedience class 2 weeks after she was mine (she practically failed - LOL), but I waited almost a full year to enroll her in an agility class. For a long time, we lacked the control necessary for sports. It's still a battle, but we've improved by leaps and bounds (no pun intended).
> 
> The BC x ACD cross is goreous! I've had that cross on my list for a while now.


A few suggestions...

You may be already doing this but use Nothing in Life is Free. And be a stickler about it. A drivey does is likely to test you at every opportunity. So enforce all of your commands and demand 100 percent compliance.

Do prolonged stays. You won't start here but work up to the dog holding a stay at a fair distance for 10 minutes. You can do this insild and you want her at least across the room.

I also use tug of war games to gain and maintain control. This is a good way to get the dog used to listening and obeying you when it is a highly excited state. Let me know if you are interested in hearing how I use this .


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## Husky+BC Mom (Jul 13, 2010)

Let's take into account the fact that BCs can easily develop "obsessive" or "erratic" behaviors when they've been brought up with the wrong family. If a BC is in rescue, 9 times out of 10 that family didn't know what they were getting into. Not saying rescues are bad or only full of "broken" dogs, but BCs are highly sensitive and are prone to things like this. Getting a BC rescue could come with a lot of rehab work before you could even think about agility/herding/OB work. 

Just something to take into consideration. As well as you'll want a working line bred BC as the show lines tend to not have that BC drive everyone knows so well. 

I'd also like to say that BCs can most certainly be "one man dogs." When i'm in the room Seamus only has eyes for me. The same with my boss and her BC. The same with our neighbor and his BC. Any dog can be a "one man dog" I don't think that can really be a breed specific trait.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I really love those BC/ACDs. Just about the perfect dog to me! Both breeds are on my 'must have' list. 

With Mia's drive it's taken us over a year just to get any kind of sense into her. She'd run herself till she threw up, slam herself into walls, etc. I finally got her to hold a stay while I tossed her tennis ball. You can see her quiver in excitement and when you release her she lets out a scream and races to the ball. Still, she can only hold it about 20 seconds so far. It's a work in progress. 

My first year I didn't do anything with her at all except try to teach her manners and how to behave. It's just now we're starting actual training.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I wish I had to control Cashs drive....
I have to work him up into having any kind of energy about him. 
Even at the dog park he mostly just wanders around.

But the truth is he is perfect for us right now


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Though I'm not sure what BCs you guys have met that are all attention whores. Most I meet are very discriminating between their people and other people. Most herders I've found are not all that touchy-feely.


As some of the others have said, I agree with this. It really depends on the dog. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> I think the mistake many folks make with very high drive dogs is they start training them for sport or work before they have really gotten into their head.


Well said. I can't imagine the hell I would be in now if I were trying to start "real" sport/field work with The Cheeseface without having taken a whole year to just get to know each other, respect each other, and develop a working relationship. Once she locks into that working mode, it takes every bit of that history to keep her tuned in with me. As it is, working with her a wonderful challenge.


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