# dominant collar--as bad as it sounds



## PeppersPop (Apr 13, 2008)

I was looking at random dog training pages and found a guy that was selling something called the dominant dog collar. It works like a choke/prong collar, where you pull on the leash to tighten it. But the dominant collar is made to cut off the dog's air. The website says that proper use of the collar requires you to pull straight up so that the dog's front legs are hanging off the ground. 

For very aggressive dogs (particularly those who are aggressive towards their owner/handler), the website advises not to try the following at home unless you are working with a professional trainer. The owner/handler hangs a leash/rope over a tree limb and connects it to the dog's collar. The dog is then provoked into attack the owner/handler (wearing a sleeve)... as the dog attacks/bites, the leash/rope is pulled (yanked?) so that the dog is hanging with all four feet off the ground. The dog hangs until he passes out and is then lowered to the ground. When the dog re-gains consciousness, the process is repeated. I don't know how many times you are supposed to do it, but at the end of the training day, you are supposed to put the dog away for the night. The dog is brought out the next day and the process repeats. When the dog fails to attack when provoked, the process done. The website says that this may need to be tested and repeated 2 to 3 times a year.

It sounds scary, cruel, and dangerous. I'm not a big fan of choke or prong collars, but if it's between using a choke/prong collar and putting a dog down, I'd go for the collar. But honestly, if a dog is so aggressive that has to be hung repeatedly, I'm not sure that I'd be doing it any favors.

Is anyone using this type of collar or know anyone who has? Is it as bad as it sounds?

Thanks,
Sid


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Will get to collar,
years ago when training bird dogs, there was a method used to cure a gun shy dog. salt and water. Dog is in a kennel trainer outside kennel, dog gets thirsty and goes to drink out of bucket. Shotgun is fired when dog is drinking dog spooks and leaves bucket and actually I had heard of salting the dog to make him thirstier. Theory being that eventually the dog being thirsty enough would drink when shotgun was fired and you have a cured dog. It is a cruel, vicious method and I'm sure somebody somewhere cured a dog using that method. Most of the dogs though when finally out of the kennel after they did the drinking/shotgun routine in kennel would bolt out of the county if shotgun was fired during hunting. But by this time the trainer had been paid and money spent. There is a much, much better way of curing gunshyness that had no abuse of real bird dogs. It's 100% cure. Not necessary to explain that part. 

Let's get back to the collar, I kinda see a comparison of the 2 methods, salt/water and the dominant choke/prong collar. I'm in the dog training business 45 years and I'm pretty tough on dogs. If I would have had to resort to those methods I would have quit dog training 44.5 years ago, get the message. I wonder how much a dog learns while passing out.


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

it is nothing more than a nylon choke chain. when the dog goes into a violent rage, attacking everything, including the handler in sight you pull up to where it is cutting off oxygen. dog learns "I get air cut off when I attack dogs, people,etc." you don't use fluffy foo foo methods on an aggressive dog. It's you either sit there and behave or I will cut your air off for that kind of nonsense.

I've seen the site. A good trainer.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I found the site. http://leerburg.com/746.htm I dont like it, I would never ever use it. It is more then just a slip lead, it has a clasp on it so it cuts off the air more efficiently.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> I found the site. http://leerburg.com/746.htm I dont like it, I would never ever use it. It is more then just a slip lead, it has a clasp on it so it cuts off the air more efficiently.


Yes, why pay 14.50 for the collar all you need is a rope a tree and a six pack.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

not too long ago there was a k9 officer in my area who was severly disciplined for doing basically the same thing that you're supposed to do with that collar. choking a dog like that was deemed animal cruelty here. 

I think i'll invite this guy here to do a demonstration....*evil chuckle*


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree that fluffy methods of training do not necessarily get the desired results from an aggressive dog but l also think there are better methods then provoking a dog and then choking it to passing out. Sadly, I have seen this method done often. I will NEVER agree with it.


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

From what I understand the argument is; either kill the dog or cure it. IMO a dog that is naturally that aggressive could never be trusted no matter how many times it was hung. So what would the average pet owner do with a dog like that even after those methods were used?

As far as the training for the gun shy dog; that's one I'd never heard of. And glad I hadn't!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

slydogges said:


> you don't use fluffy foo foo methods on an aggressive dog


What are fluffy methods? Never heard of those.

There's a wide line between what a protection dog needs to do in the field and what a companion dog needs to do in the home. When the difference is a life saved, slip leads are just as necessary as any other tool used in protection dog training. If you need to use this tool and technique in the companion dog home however, you have an inherently bigger problem to deal with, and this collar is not the answer.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Inga said:


> I agree that fluffy methods of training do not necessarily get the desired results from an aggressive dog but l also think there are better methods then provoking a dog and then choking it to passing out. Sadly, I have seen this method done often. I will NEVER agree with it.


I did not see anybody mentioning fluff/fluff methods of training this type of dog except slydogges. I questioned what dog had learned when he passed out. I stay on the forum to learn stuff.



applesmom said:


> From what I understand the argument is; either kill the dog or cure it. IMO a dog that is naturally that aggressive could never be trusted no matter how many times it was hung. So what would the average pet owner do with a dog like that even after those methods were used?
> 
> As far as the training for the gun shy dog; that's one I'd never heard of. And glad I hadn't!


Applesmom(sorry had Reno, my mistake)
don't worry there is a great pain free and no abuse way to cure a gun shy dog that works 100% if he's a bird dog. If he's not a bird dog it doesn't matter if he's gun shy as he won't be used for hunting. Of course you probably already know how to cure gun shy problem.


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## reverend_maynard (Aug 4, 2007)

The closest I want to get to seeing this technique used is if this trainer and slydogges were to take turns demonstrating on each other.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

That method of "training" would be considered animal cruelty here.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I still would like to know what the dog learns while he is passed out. I'm not against properly used force but nobody seems to know what choking the dog till he passes out teaches the dog. What are the statistics that slydogges good trainer from leerburg finishes the training and dogs and can then be trusted to do some good work. I knew Leerburg before it was the conglomerate it is now. He's been around over 30 years, I'm longer in the tooth than the Leerburg operation. Maybe slydogges knows something that's not common knowledge. I do know that the bird dog trainer did not have near as much success with his gun shy work as he wanted people to think he had and some people thought he was a good trainer. My own opinion is before I would put a dog through that I would considering a PTS of the dog. I personally know some Correction K9 handlers that would check cells for contraband etc and these dogs were one step this side of insanity and never was that type of work done.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm not interested in defending Ed Frawley's practice on hanging up a dog. I don't think that method is acceptable, but how do you control a SUPER handler aggressive dog? What if he is biting the criminal then redirect his bite on police handler? How do you handle those dogs? I have seen a video of a police dog redirected his bite from a criminal to his handler after the police officer tried to recall his dog off the bad guy.

What is the best way to re-train handler aggressive dogs? I think that dogs who are aggressive with their handlers had a poor start in training somewhere or their handlers weren't being fair and respectful. They had enough and take their "rage" on their handlers. Some dogs with handler issues are being sent to different experienced handlers who can control their issues and be fair, not hanging up the dog or whatever.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

French Ring said:


> I'm not interested in defending Ed Frawley's practice on hanging up a dog. I don't think that method is acceptable, but how do you control a SUPER handler aggressive dog? What if he is biting the criminal then redirect his bite on police handler? How do you handle those dogs? I have seen a video of a police dog redirected his bite from a criminal to his handler after the police officer tried to recall his dog off the bad guy.
> 
> What is the best way to re-train handler aggressive dogs? I think that dogs who are aggressive with their handlers had a poor start in training somewhere or their handlers weren't being fair and respectful. They had enough and take their "rage" on their handlers. Some dogs with handler issues are being sent to different experienced handlers who can control their issues and be fair, not hanging up the dog or whatever.


FrenchRing 
In the state I live in they have a very short training period (12 weeks I believe) before a police officer becomes a K9 handler and then a lot of the training the different officers do themselves with other K9 officers. Then you sometimes have (men being men) macho attitudes about their dogs. Also add too the mix that these high powered dogs are there and the funds and time needed to keep the dogs properly trained disappear. In our county they got a new dog and 6 months later they were not giving the officer time off needed to train dog with proper helpers. Everything is gung ho when dog 1st arrives. This was 15 yrs ago and the dog was a $10,000.00 dog. I don't think this was a unique situation, it may be the rule rather the exception. As far as retraining them, sometimes stuff in life just gets broken.


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## PeppersPop (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm not criticizing the trainer. I think he provides a lot of helpful information on his website, tho I don't agree with 100% of it.

What I have been told, especially by those who use them, is that choke/prong collars are not meant to cause pain, and that they don't really hurt or choke the dog... which is why I am so surprised by this collar. It sounds awful, but at least he's upfront about what it is and what it does.

Regards,
Sid 





slydogges said:


> it is nothing more than a nylon choke chain. when the dog goes into a violent rage, attacking everything, including the handler in sight you pull up to where it is cutting off oxygen. dog learns "I get air cut off when I attack dogs, people,etc." you don't use fluffy foo foo methods on an aggressive dog. It's you either sit there and behave or I will cut your air off for that kind of nonsense.
> 
> I've seen the site. A good trainer.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

There are cruel trainers of every sort out there. Trust me. Having trained horses for 40 years I have seen not only currently used cruel methods but historical methods that would turn your stomach. I have watched so called "trainers" working with horses and with dogs and have often thought.. "just give me the reins or that leash for 10 minutes and watch.. you might just learn something... and by golly I KNOW the animal will.. and that response you are attempting to get thru abuse I will get w/o it." Anger is not how to train an animals. EVER. 

Since someone made, thru abuse, the exampled dog so aggressive it will attack anyone.. does more abuse of that dog, that was abused to make it that way, make sense? Geeze loueeze I have never in my life heard of anything so completely unthinking!!! 

Slydogges.. here is one thing I want you to know.. if you EVER EVER EVER come near one of my dogs with the attitude and anger you exhibit in your posts you will be wearing your behind around your ears while sailing thru the air on your visit to the next county. If abuse and force is how you get a dog to do your bidding, you do not deserve to have dogs, or any other animals for that matter.

I trained outlaw, dangerous, "vicous" horses for 30 years. Never had to lay a horse down or resort to any cruelty. I did have to have patience and a gentle touch.. amazing how far that got me. The trick was breaking thru the barrier of the horse's expectation of abuse. Once you got thru, progress was made. 

Same thing, BTW with dogs. 

Nothing foo foo or fluffy.. just plain patience and hard diligent work requiring intelligent thought and sometimes unique approaches.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

elana55

*Slydogges.. here is one thing I want you to know.. if you EVER EVER EVER come near one of my dogs with the attitude and anger you exhibit in your posts you will be wearing your behind around your ears while sailing thru the air on your visit to the next county. If abuse and force is how you get a dog to do your bidding, you do not deserve to have dogs, or any other animals for that matter.*

I don't think she will make it near your dogs. The real funny part about her reply is that she mentioned about the web page and a good trainer. Does she not realize that whether it's a forum or a web page it's not the internet that makes a good trainer. I guess the older I get the dumber I get, I just don't understand it.
wvasko


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> I trained outlaw, dangerous, "vicous" horses for 30 years. Never had to lay a horse down or resort to any cruelty.


I hate when people do that to horses I used to work with a trainer rehabbing race horses who didn't make it on the track.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

Sly,

You said that you have seen Ed's website and you think he is a good trainer. Well, I do believe that he knows his stuffs very well and some of his advice are excellent. I am a member of his forum too. I really like some things he said about pack leader and other things. He has many good articles about dog fighting, etc. I chose not to say much about dominant dog collar because of one thing I really don't agree with it. 

Also, I am fond of his video on Bernhard Flinks building drive and focus in dogs. I think anyone who wants to be involved in high level of competition such as O rally, agility, or any dog sports should buy it. It is not specific only for schtzhund, but any dog sports in general. 

The funny thing is that you think that toys and food are bribes, and guess what? Ed Frawley uses toys and food to reward his dogs. Believe it or not, go ask him yourself if you considered him to be a good trainer. And... If you chose to be brave enough to say what you think on his forum about toys and food being considered as bribes, everyone on that forum is going to think you are so stupid for saying that.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

reverend_maynard said:


> The closest I want to get to seeing this technique used is if this trainer and slydogges were to take turns demonstrating on each other.





> Yes, why pay 14.50 for the collar all you need is a rope a tree and a six pack.


ROFL gasping for air!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Oh....are you wearing a dominant dog collar?!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

French Ring said:


> Sly,
> 
> You said that you have seen Ed's website and you think he is a good trainer. Well, I do believe that he knows his stuffs very well and some of his advice are excellent. I am a member of his forum too. I really like some things he said about pack leader and other things. He has many good articles about dog fighting, etc. I chose not to say much about dominant dog collar because of one thing I really don't agree with it.
> 
> ...


I have no actual knowledge of Ed Frawley's training ability, having never watched the man train a dog. He may be a training marvel, I do know that he is one helluva business man watching his place grow through the years. With 30 years in the business of dogs he should have a bunch of know how on dogs etc. My main point is that I think whether it's FrenchRing, Ed Frawley, CP, Slydogges, or *myself* the good trainer title should come from some personal hands on knowledge of whatever trainer you say is a good trainer. Not from Internet information which we know can be full of a lot of bloated semi-truths or bragging or actual lies, etc. etc. etc. My Opinion Only


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

I never said I agreed with everything he does. And no I wouldn't pay that much for a piece of nylon, I can get a medium prong cheaper than that. With the gas prices and all I barely want to pay that much for anything.

chokes and prongs, if used correctly will not cause injury to a dog. they were made to correct not injure.

from what I hear and see of him he is a pretty decent trainer. again that is my opinion as is everyone elses. I don't agree with him using treats, but whatever.

my previous post was just like his site. It is short and simple as to what the collar is supposed to do. Its simply the truth as to why the collar was made. How is that mean and offending? I wouldn't use one personally as I don't use a choke that way.

Why would I want to come near your dogs? I have my own dogs to play ball and frisbee with or go rough house outside with. We can even play with the water hose as Sly likes water. mickey doesn't though, but she will gladly jump into a fish pond with all that dirty water in it. or we can chase the chipmonks the cats bring home alive and kicking, back to the woods. we could play tug with a stick or Sly's tug toy or even an old sock.

to each his own. I'm done with this forum as there is no point to post anything anymore. it gets into a screaming match over this, that and the other and everyone's opinion. no point in arguing over something so simple and pointless.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

As for the dominant dog collar, there are other uses for it as well. I personally have one, and I prefer to use it as a backup for my prong collar than a regular choke chain, as it's much lighter. I never use it as a main collar for training or choking. It's just a backup, as I have had prong collars come apart, and the dominant dog collar kept me from having loose dog on my hands.

And if I remember correctly, the training at the leerburg site says to only use it as your training collar only on the worst of the worst, the dogs that are at the extreme for aggression. But I still prefer other methods.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

slydogges said:


> it gets into a screaming match over this, that and the other and everyone's opinion.


No one is screaming but my contention comes from your ignorance. Anybody who would demean the use of rewards in training, as if it doesn't come with structure and rigor equal to correction based training, is simply ignorant. I personally don't have a problem with your opinion or description of the tool, but to call methods "fluffy foo foo" is an illustration of misunderstanding.


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## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

I actually like the Leerburg website, i think Ed Frawley is a good dog trainer but I think the reason so many people disagree with his methods is simply because we're not dealing with the same type of dogs he may be dealing with.

For instance i'd never use this method on any of my companion dogs, but I can see where for some dogs it might be needed. I've had fear aggressive dogs and such and was able to simply fix that by carrying around liver snacks on walks, anytime dog growls redirect with a treat and viola fixed after a few times. I've always been lucky that my dogs like liver more then other dogs!

But I can see where he is coming from and that some dogs simply dont respond to that sort of training. Especially if a dog is handler aggressive, i can see the need for his methods.

He has some decent articles on the website, they are good for a read and for most people probably nothing more then that. I've never used any of his techniques.

I do, however, buy his leather dog leashes. They're expensive but probably the softest and best kept leashes i've ever found..


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

wvasko said:


> I have no actual knowledge of Ed Frawley's training ability, having never watched the man train a dog. He may be a training marvel, I do know that he is one helluva business man watching his place grow through the years.


 I haven't seen Ed Frawley training a dog before; however, I really like his philosophy about some certain things like being a pack leader, how to introduce dogs properly, things he wrote about markers, and other dog fighting topic. I can't comment on him being a good trainer because I haven't seen him personally. 

I get annoyed when he kept bragging how many german shepherd puppies he bred over those 30 years. I don't think it is something I want to brag about because it makes him sound like he is a puppymiller. I'm being neutral on this one because it is like 50/50 things I like and don't like about what he said.

I have heard a rumor on the Leerburg forum that he has retired from breeding GSD now and his wife or girlfriend, Cindy Rhodes, is breeding malinois once a year. It seems like after Ed has started going out with Cindy, he has changed how he sees in dog training. Cindy is a big on positive training and I'm guessing she has proven him many times about other things. I really don't know because it is none of my business. 



> My main point is that I think whether it's FrenchRing, Ed Frawley, CP, Slydogges, or *myself* the good trainer title should come from some personal hands on knowledge of whatever trainer you say is a good trainer.


 No I absolutely agree with your opinion. Not everything we read on website will automatically make anyone a good trainer. Sometimes people preach things, and are not doing them like they said they do. 



slydogges said:


> I'm done with this forum as there is no point to post anything anymore. it gets into a screaming match over this, that and the other and everyone's opinion. .


 I don't think I was screaming at you. It bothers me when a person comes in here and throws a rude comment about us bribing our dogs with food and toys. Somethings you said made other people on this board very angry and maybe you didn't mean it to happen. 

I'm sure this issue can resolve if we all are willing to say "I'm sorry" to each other. No one is being the bad guy in here and I don't think you are bad either. Whatever you said really upset many people on this forum and some of them don't care to see you go. I'm not trying to blame you, but I want to say I'm sorry if I offend you in anyway with my previous posts.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

SMoore said:


> I do, however, buy his leather dog leashes. They're expensive but probably the softest and best kept leashes i've ever found..


I do agree with you on most of what you said except this, lol. I got a leather leash from Leerburg, and am ready to throw it in the trash. It's very stiff and not flexable at all. Worst leash I've ever purchased.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

FrenchRing

1. *I haven't seen Ed Frawley training a dog before; however, I really like his philosophy about some certain things like being a pack leader, how to introduce dogs properly, things he wrote about markers, and other dog fighting topic. *

Neither of us appears to know about Frawley's training. Do you know of any dogs he has put titles on? I don't because the Schutzhund sport I just barely touched it and at that time Frawley or Leerburg was not a big name in the sport etc.

2. *I get annoyed when he kept bragging how many german shepherd puppies he bred over those 30 years. I don't think it is something I want to brag about because it makes him sound like he is a puppy miller. I'm being neutral on this one because it is like 50/50 things I like and don't like about what he said.*

I know his reputation more from this end probably 10 years after he got started in dogs.

3. *Also, I am fond of his video on Bernhard Flinks building drive and focus in dogs. I think anyone who wants to be involved in high level of competition such as O rally, agility, or any dog sports should buy it. It is not specific only for schutzhund, but any dog sports in general.*

This is where I first actually heard anything about him is that he produced videos for sale, He went to Germany for the Bundesieger and other championship events in the states and abroad to tape the events and sell videos. (still I heard nothing of his actual training prowess.) I actually purchased a couple of VHS tapes. At that time he was just getting into the start of selling protection equipment. Bite arms, suits, muzzles dumb bells etc. I know he rubbed elbows with many of the top trainers etc. The time was late 80s early to mid 90s. Still never heard of him at that time doing any competition work. Does not mean he wasn't, just means I didn't hear of it. I do know slowly he went from a sales type brochure to a catalog type so sales were picking up and then he did start advertising German import stock for sale puppies and grown dogs. I also purchased a couple bite arms from him and have talked on phone to him, seemed like a nice phone person and no complaints about the equipment purchase. I wonder when we hear advice on training dogs from somebody if it's the actual hands on dog training wisdom or just something they hear as traveling through the dog world of training and then pass on as it's their experience type. That's kinda why I jumped into the Leerburg/Frawley reply in the first place. I was just curious.


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