# raw feeding 4 month old large breed puppy



## honedanny28 (Nov 4, 2012)

hi im new here,i have a 4 month old rottweiler x a/bulldog,she weighs around the 40lb mark and ive just started feeding raw to her over the last few days.
ive been researching about amounts to feed

im feeding a chicken quarter with bone for breakfast,
for lunch a handful of sliced up lambs heart and half a handful of lambs liver and then finally for dinner another chicken quarter.

i will gradually introduce different raw meats as time goes on

does this sound ok for her weight?
please let me know if i can improve on this as im new to this and want her to be as healthy as possible
many thanks
here a little pic of her at 3 and half months


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## Natalie Rouleau (Nov 25, 2012)

Its not always good for dogs because it brings in bacteria that the dogs arent use to and it can make them sick in some cases not always and it can give them the runs.


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## honedanny28 (Nov 4, 2012)

hi thanks for the reply,shes not been sick or anything,her poop is normal,not runny or hard.
she was eating james well beloved kibble but didnt seem to want to eat much of this,almost turning her nose up at it.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Normally, when starting out feeding raw, you want to stick to one protein source at a time to give the tummy time to adjust. Puppies do tend to adjust more quickly though  You just need to make sure you have the general 80/10/10 ratio down (meat/bones/organs). I wouldn't worry too much about the organ meat just now.. it can come afterwards. You will want to try and feed as many different proteins as you can once she has adjusted. I always watch the poops as a guideline for the feeding - too runny, add a bit more boney meals. Too hard/crumbling - need more meaty meals.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

The usual suggestion is to feed 2-3% of the pup's ideal adult weight per day. Aren't Rottweilers and American Bulldogs both about 100 pounds or so at maturity? If you expect so [I am guessing] then try to get 2-3 pounds of food in per day. Otherwise feed whatever amount keeps her lean and fit but not skinny. Fine line that.

If chicken quarters are going to be a staple then aim to feed twice as much meat as chicken to attain 10% bone as chicken quarters are about 30% bone. It is fine if you don't quite get there, that would just be exactly 10% bone. See if you can find other lamb organs, brain/spleen/sweetbreads/kidney are a few. After a few days of good poop on chicken and lamb then try out another protein. Chicken and lamb is a very good diet right there, though beef is even better. Other meats have good things to offer as well.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> The usual suggestion is to feed 2-3% of the pup's ideal adult weight per day. Aren't Rottweilers and American Bulldogs both about 100 pounds or so at maturity? If you expect so [I am guessing] then try to get 2-3 pounds of food in per day. Otherwise feed whatever amount keeps her lean and fit but not skinny. Fine line that.
> 
> If chicken quarters are going to be a staple then aim to feed twice as much meat as chicken to attain 10% bone as chicken quarters are about 30% bone. It is fine if you don't quite get there, that would just be exactly 10% bone. See if you can find other lamb organs, brain/spleen/sweetbreads/kidney are a few. After a few days of good poop on chicken and lamb then try out another protein. Chicken and lamb is a very good diet right there, though beef is even better. Other meats have good things to offer as well.


Some dogs don't do well with only 10% bone. My Bryna needs about 30-40% bone to not get the runs, where my other girl Callie is fine with the minimum 10%. 

OP, how are the pups poops? if they are crumbly, or "powder poo's", then lower the bone ratio. Adjust depending on the poops. OR, you could go ahead and adjust the ratios (lower the bone, increase the meat) and see what happens.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Sounds like a fine amount. It's tough with crosses, especially if you don't know the weight of the parents. 2% of her ideal weight per day is a good starting guideline. Keep doing what you're doing and if she's getting too thin give her more; too chubby cut back. Since you're just starting raw I think it's fine to have a bit more bone but as you introduce new protein sources you should gradually cut back. The guideline is for 80% meat but as mentioned it's only a guideline and some dogs may need more or less to have good poops. Her poop should NOT be white coming out. Solid and firm, but not hard. I'd do one bone meal and one meat meal, with organ added to either or both. Until 6 months old she should be fed 3x a day, so a mixmatch of whatever for lunch. At 6 months old she can go to 2xa day, and at a year+ you can go to once a day if you want.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Natalie Rouleau said:


> Its not always good for dogs because it brings in bacteria that the dogs arent use to and it can make them sick in some cases not always and it can give them the runs.


 Please do some research. Kibble has salmonella and e. coli and such too, along with aflatoxins from grains and god knows what else. Dogs and cats naturally have salmonella in their GI tract. Yes raw can give them the runs when switching, but many kibbles can do that too and pets have constant diarrhea on kibble. If a raw fed dog has the runs there are many things you can do. Make sure the meat is not enhanced, the sodium content should be less than 100mg per 4 oz serving. Cut back on fat/skin. Make sure you're not overfeeding or feeding too much in one meal. Don't feed large quantities of organ, especially if the dog is new to raw. Up the bone content. Give 12-24 hours of digestive rest (no food or treats). There's nothing you can really do with kibble but try a different brand or give medications.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Too much calcium isn't a good thing, it binds zinc. If zinc isn't available then skin health can be compromised. In large breed pups it causes the bones to grow rapidly which causes health issues later in life. My dog probably gets more than 10% bone too but 10% is all that is required for nutrition and that is why it is the goal. If my dog needed that much bone then I would probably be adjusting the diet to try to figure out something that works without feeding 30-40% bone for extended periods of time.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> Too much calcium isn't a good thing, it binds zinc. If zinc isn't available then skin health can be compromised. In large breed pups it causes the bones to grow rapidly which causes health issues later in life. My dog probably gets more than 10% bone too but 10% is all that is required for nutrition and that is why it is the goal. If my dog needed that much bone then I would probably be adjusting the diet to try to figure out something that works without feeding 30-40% bone for extended periods of time.


Any suggestions to firm up poop without the bone? We have tried trimming meats, and feeding lean meats along with the minimum bone and haven't had any success.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Insoluble plant fiber like pumpkin are better for bulking up stool.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I would try feeding less overall in case the gut is overwhelmed. Sassy taught me that just because you eat more doesn't mean you get fat, you might just poop the excess right back out. And in your dog's case the excess might be firmed up by the bone.

You could try feeding a couple meals a day for the same reason. Sassy taught me that lesson too. Her gut couldn't hold 1000 calories of food if fed 3x a day but could if fed 4x a day.

You could try feeding one protein at a time for a couple weeks to see if there is some sort of intolerance to one of the meats fed that for some odd reason shows up as needing more bone.

It could be she happens to need some vegetable fiber. Try adding that canned pumpkin to her food with a bit less bone and see what happens. 

Out there but maybe eating whole prey would help. The fur does firm the poop. 

Tendons and tripe and other collagen rich tissues firm poop too but they are high in calcium and I count them as small bone same as those chicken feet and fish.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> I would try feeding less overall in case the gut is overwhelmed. Sassy taught me that just because you eat more doesn't mean you get fat, you might just poop the excess right back out. And in your dog's case the excess might be firmed up by the bone.
> 
> You could try feeding a couple meals a day for the same reason. Sassy taught me that lesson too. Her gut couldn't hold 1000 calories of food if fed 3x a day but could if fed 4x a day.
> 
> ...


I think what we are going to do is cut out the bone/organ meal and just spread it throughout the week. That will cut out the extra bone and increase the overall meat/organ ratio while cutting back on the bone, since she usually gets a chicken back with organs. There is also no way that I can feed my dog 4x's a day. I work 10-12 hour shifts, 4-5 days/week, and my SO doesn't really like to feed her. I _should_ be able to do two times/day.


She really doesn't poop much at all. My cats lay bigger turds than she does (they are still kibble fed) and she only goes once every 2 days or so. I also want to stay away from anything plant related. Nothing against it, I just want to avoid it. We also live in a small 2 bedroom apartment, so whole prey is out (although I wish we could feed that way.)

Thanks for the input!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Gosh, that is Sassy's history! She was eating nearly twice the calories she did on kibble plus that was all the water she would take in for the whole day. The total volume of her meals was maybe 1-1.5 quarts. Amazing that divided 3x that was impossible but 4x was just fine. 

Normal dogs need one or two meals a day. If the dog doesn't do well on one meal then try two, that's all. I feed Max once a day as he tends to poop once per meal and back when he started raw the bony meal's poop would be firm and the meat meal's poop would be soft which was annoying. Fed once a day he poops once a day and it is fine if I haven't overdone something or another - still fighting the best buddy/not enough food thing. As he ages he might need to be fed twice a day and I might need to feed bone and organ daily again.

What does a week's worth of meals look like? Could try the bit of bone bit of organ daily thing for a while.

I don't want to feed plant stuff either but if you cannot figure it out it could be healthier than overfeeding bone.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> Gosh, that is Sassy's history! She was eating nearly twice the calories she did on kibble plus that was all the water she would take in for the whole day. The total volume of her meals was maybe 1-1.5 quarts. Amazing that divided 3x that was impossible but 4x was just fine.
> 
> Normal dogs need one or two meals a day. If the dog doesn't do well on one meal then try two, that's all. I feed Max once a day as he tends to poop once per meal and back when he started raw the bony meal's poop would be firm and the meat meal's poop would be soft which was annoying. Fed once a day he poops once a day and it is fine if I haven't overdone something or another - still fighting the best buddy/not enough food thing. As he ages he might need to be fed twice a day and I might need to feed bone and organ daily again.
> 
> ...




Well, last night we ran out of bone and it was too late to go get some quarters, so she just had two hearts. Usually that would cause the runs, but not this time! She still hasn't pooped today, so I think we are in the clear, and are going to be able to lessen the bone safely. 

Before last night, her week looked something like 1-2 pork hearts and one quarter every day, sometimes with a bit of liver and a kidney as a snack at some point during the week. BUT, since we were forced to go boneless last night we will cut out the quarters a couple days a week and only feed them with organs.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

ataridashi said:


> What about supplements like probiotic and digestive enzymes? How do you guys feel about the value of tripe, with the digesting vegetation and bacterial content that most wild animals consume first on prey...


 I personally feel tripe is overrated. It's great variety and there's no reason to exclude it, but I feel it's glorified beyond what it should be. I copied this recently to another thread, from "Chris O" in a raw feeding group.


> The nutrients in the tripe tissue can be identified by looking up beef tripe, raw on the USDA database. Protein is lower, phos is lower, cal is higher than flesh. However the numbers aren't enough to be considered a good diet. Even if there is a perfect balance between phos and cal, there's only a little bit of it.
> 
> The nutrients in the digesta do nothing (as in NOTHING) to nourish a carnviore. The nutrients are there for the cow, done and done. The probiotics may be wowza for cows, but by the time the dog gets them, the dog's stomach has pretty much shot 'em dead, all of them.
> 
> ...


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Sassy had kidney failure and was on a monster dose of probiotic. When she was off it I never saw any change in her poop. When she got an upset gut I saw the exact same recovery with my super lean chicken and rice as I did with the vet's prescribed antibiotic and probiotic. My dogs seem to have generally healthy guts and don't seem to need extra bacteria.

Max sure loves tripe and he eats all of the digestive tracts of his whole prey items minus the actual contents which he shakes out. Whole prey is an outside meal around here! As part of his diet he is eating a ground mix that includes stomach grass and loves it. His poop is about 2x the usual size after those meals so I think it is pretty much just going straight through.

I like feeding tripe as part of the prey model but I do try to stick to something close to the actual amount IN a prey animal, maybe 10-15% of the whole animal.

Up to you though, I am sure some dogs do terrible eating any tripe and some dogs thrive on a diet with 50% tripe. Just have to try it to see how it goes.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I've fed llama stomach (semi-digested grass/hay included) and my dog loved it. I fed a whole rabbit, and the only part they didn't eat was the stomach. When I feed whole chickens, they usually don't eat the stomach but sometimes do.


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