# How to punish a dog?



## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

We have a 6.5 year old English bulldog. We've had her since she was 4 weeks old (pet store wanted to put her down because she was sick and we agreed to cover her vet bills so they wouldn't). She's been a wonderful dog. Very easy to train, no behavioral issues, very sweet, very loving, etc.

However, recently she's started acting out (reasons unknown at this point) but we cannot figure out how to punish her. When we trained her initially, we would reward with treats for positive behavior and use "ah ah ahh" when she did something incorrect. If she continued to misbehave, she would go in her crate and wait 10 minutes and we'd try again. We never yelled and we never made the crate a bad experience (her crate is still her favorite place to go to).

Lately, however, if we use "ah ah ahh" (in a relatively nice voice, not a mean/loud/angry tone) when she does something wrong, she wails, runs off, and pees and/or poops in the house (even though she's been potty trained for years and never had an accident and has been out within the past hour and went). If we try to scold her (or usually even go near her) for going potty in the house and make her go outside, she'll try to bite. If we try to put her in her crate or any secluded area away from her people, she'll wail at the top of her lungs for hours on end. We're kinda at a loss at how to reinforce the behaviors are negative (even though she's known this her whole life and previously always followed it) because she just ends up punishing us worse! 

We've also been working extensively for 5 months with a vet and medically/physically, she's 100% fine. Her CBC, Chem 27, thyroid panel, etc are all normal. We had xrays and abdominal ultrasound done - both normal. No medications. The vet and the recommended trainer have given up as they both state they have never seen anything like this before.

She also will only potty outside on her terms. If I try to say "let's go outside and go potty" she wails and runs and hides. When SHE has to go out, she'll go to the door, ask, and go outside and go potty. However, when we have work or other engagements, sometimes she needs to potty on our schedule. Our schedule has not changed for years and she never had a problem going potty on our schedule until recently. Sometimes she'd rather hold it for 16-20 hours than go potty on our schedule now. I've even been bit trying to get her to go outside when it's been a long time. If I manage to snatch her and force her outside, she'll immediately run out and go potty but she'll literally scream, cry, and try to take my hand off for trying to make her.

We don't know what to do


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

"Punishment" just really doesn't work well for dogs. Correction even isn't meant to "punish" the dog so much as say, "no, what you're doing this exact instant is wrong" so that you can then redirect them to the right behavior.

It sounds like you may need a new trainer or behaviorist to take a look at the dog. From what you're describing, it sounds like she's afraid. It's hard for us who can't see this to know why, but running off and defacating after a correction (the ah-ah's) sounds like a fearful dog. It could be that something happened that didn't seem like a big deal to you, but to her was pretty traumatic.

If it were me, I'd stop with corrections and start from scratch with potty training and positive reinforcement training while looking for a good trainer or behaviorist to take a look at her. I would not scold her for any accidents and essentially treat her like a puppy and work on rebuilding the relationship in the meantime. It sounds like you've used a lot of correction in the past and she has a temperment that just eventually couldn't take it.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

correction and punishment has never been meant to be negative. The "ah ah ahh" is always in a very positive tone and every time she does something good, she gets praised and rewarded. It has worked wonderfully for the full 6.5 years of her life. The dog has always been afraid. From the time we brought her home at 8 weeks old, she's been afraid. She's scared of door knocking, spoons, forks, pots, pans, laundry baskets, vacuums, cups, plates, chairs (but only the folding kind), soft cover books (but not hard cover books), dark colored comforters..... So so bizarre. That's why we never yelled or sounded angry during training. However, the more we let her get away with stuff and don't do anything to let her know it's bad, the more she's doing it. She's never been hit or anything close to it in her entire life. Outside of the potential of doggie daycare, she's never been yelled at (and even there we have webcams to watch her). She's been nothing but spoiled rotten her entire life and always behavior spectacularly well. We're not sure what triggered her reverting back to her puppy stages + biting. I've actually had to get stitches once. She is the kind of dog that will push the limits and see what she can get away with so I'm afraid if we don't correct her at all for bad behavior, it'll just get worse - it's happened in the past.

We've worked with 2 trainers - one is a certified pet trainer and the other was a vet who did a 3 year residency in pet behavioral therapy. We've worked with them each for 6 weeks (total of 12 weeks). She's only getting worse no matter what we try. We did try the adaptil diffuser and collar and thundershirt which seemed to have zero effect after a month. I'm not quite sure if it is fear/anxiety or not. If we just leave her be, she'll look relatively proud next to her "accidents." We tried diapers as our carpet and walls are getting ruined (she smears her poop in the walls a lot) but she instantly goes potty in the diapers every time. I actually caught her once picking her poop up in her mouth, carrying it to the couch, jumping up (which she knows she's not allowed to do) and then spitting it back out on the couch and rolling in it to get it everywhere. She sits by us tall and proud whenever we have to clean up her messes. She acts more like a stuck up privileged b*tch than a scared dog to be honest.




packetsmom said:


> "Punishment" just really doesn't work well for dogs. Correction even isn't meant to "punish" the dog so much as say, "no, what you're doing this exact instant is wrong" so that you can then redirect them to the right behavior.
> 
> It sounds like you may need a new trainer or behaviorist to take a look at the dog. From what you're describing, it sounds like she's afraid. It's hard for us who can't see this to know why, but running off and defacating after a correction (the ah-ah's) sounds like a fearful dog. It could be that something happened that didn't seem like a big deal to you, but to her was pretty traumatic.
> 
> If it were me, I'd stop with corrections and start from scratch with potty training and positive reinforcement training while looking for a good trainer or behaviorist to take a look at her. I would not scold her for any accidents and essentially treat her like a puppy and work on rebuilding the relationship in the meantime. It sounds like you've used a lot of correction in the past and she has a temperment that just eventually couldn't take it.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

Agree with Packetsmom. Sounds like something happened in her mind in connection with ah-ah. 

If it were me, I would not correct potty accidents at this point, verbally or otherwise. I would also not use your normal potty phrase. I would probably say nothing, confidently, but nicely, leash her up and take her to the yard. When she goes, she gets praise and a treat. After a few days, introduce a new word/phrase for pottying, but continue taking her on leash. 

Since she is also responding negatively to ah-ah, you might try the gentler version of uh-oh (nicely, like you would to a two-year old), then nicely show her what behavior you are looking for. (not implying in anyway that you were harsh. Just saying, the association with the potty phrase and ah-ah is tarnished).


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

foreverlaur;2244233[I said:


> That's why we never yelled or sounded angry during training. However, the more we let her get away with stuff and don't do anything to let her know it's bad, the more she's doing it. She's been nothing but spoiled rotten her entire life and always behavior spectacularly well. We're not sure what triggered her reverting back to her puppy stages + biting. I've actually had to get stitches once. She is the kind of dog that will push the limits and see what she can get away with so I'm afraid if we don't correct her at all for bad behavior, it'll just get worse - it's happened in the past. [/I]


Here's where I feel that NILIF applies best. Without setting boundaries, a dog can get a little pushy with behaviors that are not appropriate. I went through a similar experience with my setter when she was young. She was a sweet, soft, lovable hyper dog and I let her do pretty much whatever, until she started snapping at us. 
I absolutely corrected that with a firm "NO". Further, she was not allowed on furniture uninvited, if I asked for a sit, I waited for it before I pet her (sometimes hours later), she sat and downed for meals. We had a complete turn-around in a week's time. I began to set boundaries and expected follow-through. Many times, a leash helped with her understanding our expectations. Most of her training was positive reward, but there were times were simply not letting her get what she wanted was sufficient motivation/communication - again, by using a leash. We didn't yell. We didn't punish. Just set some boundaries, expected follow-through and praised the good stuff.


oh and *ewwww*.....("_I actually caught her once picking her poop up in her mouth, carrying it to the couch, jumping up (which she knows she's not allowed to do) and then spitting it back out on the couch and rolling in it to get it everywhere._)"

This is probably misconstrued ("_She sits by us tall and proud whenever we have to clean up her messes._ ")


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

foreverlaur said:


> She's been nothing but spoiled rotten her entire life and always behavior spectacularly well. We're not sure what triggered her reverting back to her puppy stages + biting. I've actually had to get stitches once. She is the kind of dog that will push the limits and see what she can get away with so I'm afraid if we don't correct her at all for bad behavior, it'll just get worse - it's happened in the past.


and


foreverlaur said:


> I'm not quite sure if it is fear/anxiety or not. If we just leave her be, she'll look relatively proud next to her "accidents." We tried diapers as our carpet and walls are getting ruined (she smears her poop in the walls a lot) but she instantly goes potty in the diapers every time. I actually caught her once picking her poop up in her mouth, carrying it to the couch, jumping up (which she knows she's not allowed to do) and then spitting it back out on the couch and rolling in it to get it everywhere. She sits by us tall and proud whenever we have to clean up her messes. She acts more like a stuck up privileged b*tch than a scared dog to be honest.


These two point to a lot of misunderstanding of dog behavior. Just because someone is a certified pet trainer and another is a vet does not mean they are the best fit for your dog. You may need to try another trainer, if, as you say, things haven't been getting better. To me, it sounds like you are attributing a lot of very human attitudes and emotions to your dog, which are getting in your way. I'm sure the situation is very frustrating, but I don't think what you've been doing has been working or you wouldn't be looking for other ideas.

You may be able to add back corrections later, but for now, this on your side plus her behavior on her side sound like the relationship itself is broken and I'd focus on that WHILE looking for a new trainer to work with you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against corrections in the right circumstances. I just think that corrections are likely what has gotten you to this point and that it's time to work on patching up the relationship first, then figure out with a professional what's causing this behavior.

It isn't that her behavior is "ok" or acceptable, it's that the attitude and approach you are using haven't been working this time around and we're trying to look at ways you could approach this differently that might help the situation until you get someone in there who can see what's going on to offer advice.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I would get a *certified* behaviorist especially since the potential for a serious bite is there. 

The sudden change in behavior still suggest some sort of medical problem to me, though I know you said you have done many tests. If she's having accidents when she didn't before and is exhibiting possible signs of pain (the irritability) a UTI comes to mind. Have you had that test done yet?

I agree with the other posters that it also sounds like she is afraid. Even if you have never intentionally been threatening or punished her she may be the type of sensitive dog that is just picking up on your frustration and anger even if you try not to show it. You did say she was afraid of many things and some dogs are just genetically predisposed to being timid and fearful. 

Try not to be mad or frustrated with her even internally. I think you are giving her too many human qualities with your descriptions of her being "proud" and "punishing us." She is most likely acting this way due to fear or pain/illness not out of a desire to punish you or some desire to do "bad" as dogs do not grasp the concepts of "bad" and "good" but act based on what gets them what they want.

I think you will need to take the course of management with this dog to prevent her from doing the things you do not want such as having accidents or playing with her feces in the house. For now that may mean keeping her leashed to you at all times for close supervision. If you can prevent undesired behaviors and reinforce the proper behaviors then she will be able to reform her old good habits and break the bad ones. A certified behaviorist who can observe her actions will help you come up with a long term plan and goals.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Punishing her won't teach her anything. It will make her worse.
She is not trying to spite you.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Is this the same dog that started behaving oddly when she moved in with you and your dog? It could be that the dog has a generally shy or nervous temperament, has moved around quite a bit, and this last move was the final straw. 

Was the thyroid panel your vet ran a complete analysis? Did the lab report all values? You might have that rechecked through the Hemopet lab as I've heard they are very good at interpreting thyroid levels.

You might try contacting a behaviorist certified through IAABC.

From your description, it sounds as though punishment will only make the situation worse.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

Yes - and we actually got her past all of that and one day she decided she wanted to start misbehaving and refusing to be punished. She actually gets along really well with my dog. Most nights they share my dog's crate (it's bigger) and snuggle. It's pretty cute actually. She's been living here for a solid 5 months now.

I'm not sure what exactly a full panel is but we had TSH, Total T4, Free T4, Total T3, Free T3 and Antibodies checked twice by a major veterinary hospital and school in the US. Both times well within normal range. We're not confident she's in pain because her entire life she's been overly obvious about her pain (opposite of most dogs). Even with little things that don't hurt, she'll cry until she's comforted. Just in case, we had her on Deramaxx and Ultram for quite a while but it did not make any difference so we stopped them. She's had the CBC and Chem 27 checked problem half a dozen times - all normal. The only exception was the elevated AST a while back which was resolved by switching her to a vegetarian diet (caused by protein). We also had her on Elavil and Prozac for a few months and that didn't make a single bit of difference either.

We recently went on a weekend trip and put her in doggie daycare (some one she's gone to for years). She stood face first in a corner the entire time and refused to come out. For days. When I picked her up, she went crazy when she got home. Ran around the house immediately pooping in 7 different spots and peeing in 3 different spots. She refuses to stay off the furniture and often scratches, poops, and pees on our furniture. It's all ruined. If I ignore the bad behavior and reward the good behavior, she views it as being OK and the bad behavior greatly increases in frequency. She's never been treat motivated, praise motivated, or cuddle motivated so there isn't a great way to reward her for positive behavior.

The only odd thing is the "ah ah ahh" only causes freak outs when we do it. When the trainer was here, she behaved perfectly, immediately corrected her actions when "ah ah ahh" was used and did the correct thing. The minute the trainer leaves, the crazy behavior resumes. So it's hard for these trainers to truly understand what we're going through because she acts like a perfect dog whenever they're around (both at our place and when we take her somewhere). I'm sure they just think we're crazy.

They have small suspect of a potential brain tumor but MRIs are very expensive and there's not really any interventions we can do anyway so we're not sure if that's worth the several thousand dollar expense....

The vet we hired did a 3 year residency in pet behavioral therapy so I'd say that's pretty certified. The trainer we hired was also certified with over 20 years experience.

She doesn't want to be told she's doing something wrong, yet she wants to misbehave. She doesn't want to be petted, praised, loved, or cuddled. She just wants to poop and pee everywhere, cry and scream, and be left alone. But my apartment cannot handle that. I already have to replace my couch, my loveseat, my carpet, repaint my walls, and replace both bed quilts.

On another side note - she does not go potty on a leash. If you put a leash on her, she'll 50/50 go crazy or refuse to move and make you drag her. She's been like that her entire life. Off leash she's fine. So she's always pottied off leash. If you even have a leash in your hand, she'll scream and run - always has. My dog uses an e-collar and she cannot be within a 10 ft radius of him when he has that on. She screams and runs in the other direction and won't calm down for a solid half hour. We don't know why.

My patience, my home, and my bank account cannot handle much more of this.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm going to repeat a few things you said above here that I think are getting in the way of you working with your dog. Please be patient with me, since I understand your frustration. This dog has obviously ruined a lot of things in your home and disrupted your lives with her behavior.



> one day she decided she wanted to start misbehaving and refusing to be punished





> We're not confident she's in pain because her entire life she's been overly obvious about her pain (opposite of most dogs). Even with little things that don't hurt, she'll cry until she's comforted.





> If I ignore the bad behavior and reward the good behavior, she views it as being OK





> She doesn't want to be told she's doing something wrong, yet she wants to misbehave. She doesn't want to be petted, praised, loved, or cuddled. She just wants to poop and pee everywhere, cry and scream, and be left alone.


In each of these examples, you've gone beyond just describing her behavior to assigning human motivations to that behavior. It's pretty common for us as humans to do. We often think in ways like this, so we assume our dogs do as well. In time, that can start to influence the attitude we have when we try to work with our dogs. Dogs are VERY in tune with our body language. To them, that actually gives us a TON more information than the actual words we say, most of which are just jibberish to them. They watch us as they do each other, looking at the most minute changes in our posture, our tone of voice, the squint of our eyes, etc. They notice things about our bodies that even other humans might not. They can even tell things about our mood from the way we hold a leash. You can bet that if you resent your dog as much as you've written here...your dog already knows.

Fearful, anxious dogs take a TON of patience. It's not easy to live with one or work with one. I've had one and it was a very difficult relationship and I can still remember how frustrated I'd be and how much I sometimes resented the things I had to deal with. I also remember how being frustrated and resentful of the dog only made those problems more difficult to deal with. I'm sure the experts you hired were very qualified. That doesn't mean that they were able to crack the code of how to help this dog. Different trainers and behaviorists (which are far different than trainers and likely a better choice for this situation) have different styles. It isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of deal and often you have to try a few until you find the one whose experience, personality, and methods fit with your dog.

I think the main issue you need to figure out, and no one else can really help you do this, is whether or not you are willing to do whatever it takes to help this dog or if you are simply so drained and frustrated that you are looking for someone to tell you it is ok to give up now. If you choose to rehome this dog, I'd urge you to try to find the dog a home yourself that has the resources of time and patience to work with her issues...and those will need to be considerable. Anxious and fearful dogs will sometimes never be the same as other dogs and may always need special handling. There are some, too, that are better off put to sleep because their fear and anxiety makes their lives so painful to live that it's the only humane option.

We're on the other side of the internet, so it's impossible for us to know what the precise correct thing for you to do is. To me, it seems like you are less interested in advice than you are having someone understand what you're going through, which is really rough, and maybe telling you that it's ok to rehome this dog. (If you're to the point you're this resentful of the dog, then it's probably what's best for the dog as well as you.)

As an aside, if what you're looking for is for suggestions of harsher adversives to use on a dog that is anxious and fearful...you likely will not find that here. As others have said, that will likely only make her issues worse.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

I feel like I'm missing something. Everything you wrote spells out fear and miscommunication, to me. If he moved in with you 2 months ago, he's really not 'over' the change. It will take time and patience for him to settle and begin to feel more confident. If he's fine when the trainer is there, what exactly is he/she doing differently? Did he react when you put the leash on in their presence? What did the behaviorist say or do during the visit? In addition to the move, it sounds like he's been on a number of meds.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

I have wanted to rehome the dog from day 1. She's not my dog - she's my boyfriend's dog. I don't have the type of feelings for her that he does. She's made my life hell and trashed my home since day 1. I went over and beyond to make her feel loved and welcomed and I am out of energy. He, however, will never give up on her. He's convinced one day she'll go back to being the sweet and loving dog she was for the first 6 years of her life.

Also, the dog has been living with me for 5 months. The dog has known me and been around me on a regular basis and has had sleepovers at my place for about 15 months.

Even when she stays with his parents (who she has stayed with regularly her whole life), she misbehaves. They refuse to punish or scold her... they just spoil and love her rotten and the behavior doesn't change. She refuses treats. If we try to pet her, she runs off. If we pick her up and try to cuddle her she screams and wiggles until we put her down. How do you change behavior when you cannot punish or scold a dog and she refuses treats, love, and praise? I'd be all for leaving her alone if she didn't destroy my home.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Have you tried any sort of medication for her anxiety? Maybe something that could help her brain relax a little would enable her to learn better.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

Hambonez said:


> Have you tried any sort of medication for her anxiety? Maybe something that could help her brain relax a little would enable her to learn better.


Yes, we tried adaptil collar, adaptil diffuser, Prozac, Elavil, and the thundershirt with no success. We just recently stopped the pills after a little over 2 months with no change. We still use the collar and diffuser and thundershirt even though it doesn't help - it doesn't hurt either.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

She is from a pet store (which we know doesn't get their dogs from reputable sources) could it be something mental or behavioral? I have heard of instances where this has happened.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Your other dog having an e-collar on should not have any effect whatsoever on your other dog. That does not make any sense to me as I doubt one dog would notice what kind of collar the other dog has on as how would they even know what it was?


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Kyllobernese said:


> Your other dog having an e-collar on should not have any effect whatsoever on your other dog. That does not make any sense to me as I doubt one dog would notice what kind of collar the other dog has on as how would they even know what it was?


I'm assuming e-collar means Elizabethan collar here - that is, lamp shade. My dog is very wary of dogs in e-collars.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

e-collar as in electronic collar (http://www.tritronics.com/sport-basic-g3-exp.html)
i have a labrador so it works wonders for him being off leash. i never have to shock him but i use the audible beep fairly often when he's out of voice range and every time she sees the collar, she screams. every time i do the audible beep (even when the dog is way out of audible range) she screams. She's never had one on and has never been accidentally shocked or touched with it. So now we even have to take the dogs out at separate times and put her in a different room when we bring it out to put it on my dog. I guess we'll chalk it up to her laundry list of unexplained and very bizarre fears.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

It's less likely that it's just a temperment issue due to bad breeding if the dog was fine for 6 years. That seems to point to either an undiagnosed veterinary issue or some kind of trauma.

From a practical standpoint, I would be treating this dog like a puppy right now, starting completely from scratch. The dog woild not have the run of the house to destoy things. It would be leashed to someone watching it and when someone couldn't be watching her, she'd be in an ex-pen or crate. I'd use NILIF and positive reinforcement training. Almost any dog has something you can use as a reward. You judt need to get toknow the dog. I'd work on bonding with the dog. It's tough to get many dogs to obey Iif they don't trust you and it sounds like you and the dog have been at odds from day one. Corrections, if necessary, can come later, but right now they'd undermine forming that bond and getting his dog to relax some and trust.

Since this is your bf's dog, maybe try to think about how you'd feel if it was your dog having issues, a dog you'd loved for so many years. It's likely you'd be upset, especially if he hated your dog from day one and it's likely you'd want to try everything to help your dog. It speaks well to his sense of commitment that he's been unwilling to give up, even through all this.

From everything you've described, this dog sounds anxious and fearful, not defiant. I think it's going to take someone digging deep and finding ompassion to help.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Maybe you should change your attitude about it.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> Maybe you should change your attitude about it.


I had a positive attitude. I had a positive attitude for the first year plus that I dated my boyfriend. Me and his dog were best friends. We'd have sleepovers, play dates, etc. We got along super well. This only started 5 months ago when the sleepovers became permanent stays. We had a strong and trusting bond established. She listened to me. We got along. I watched her for 1-2 weeks at a time a lot when my boyfriend traveled for work (at my apartment where she lives now). No problems. Wonderful dog. Well behaved. 

Then BAM it all changed. For no reason any of us can come up with. I worked my butt off and spent thousands of dollars trying to figure out what happened and how to fix it. Nothing worked thus far and I'm at my wits end at this point. I'm thousands of dollars in debt over this dog and my home is trashed. I just don't have the energy to spend my days cleaning poop and pee off my furniture, floors, and walls. Just an hour ago she pooped in her crate even though we had just spent a pleasant 30 minutes hanging out in the back yard. By the time I discovered it, she had rolled around in it and jumped on the spare bed and rolled the poop all over the bed. For no reason. We'd let her do whatever she wanted with no negativity or corrections. I'd just given her a special dog treat when we came in from outside, petted her, and praised her (she didn't howl the whole time she was outside).


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

foreverlaur said:


> Yes, we tried adaptil collar, adaptil diffuser, Prozac, Elavil, and the thundershirt with no success. We just recently stopped the pills after a little over 2 months with no change. We still use the collar and diffuser and thundershirt even though it doesn't help - it doesn't hurt either.


This is what worries me the most. Did your vet tell you to take her off of the Prozac and the Elavil? You should never stop a mood altering drug cold turkey. In humans it can cause headache, nausea, pins and needles, tremor, difficulty sleeping, intense dreams, dizziness, agitation and anxiety, in short, withdrawal. It is also a terrible, terrible idea to stop a psychotropic drug without the vets permission, I'm no vet but in humans they usually wean the person off of the drug to prevent these side effects.

I agree with what the others have said though. You need to go back to the basics. Tether her to you or keep her in the crate when you cant watch her. Don't give her to opportunity to get into trouble and you wont have a reason to punish her.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

Yes, the vet wanted her off those medications since she'd been on them more than enough time to start to notice a difference and the behavior got worse, not better. We did taper her off of the medications.

I did at one point basically keep her glued to me at all times where she could always be watched. If she wasn't wailing due to her lack of freedom, she was pooping or peeing on my leg. Or when I was at work, it was my boyfriend. I work nights and he works days so the dogs are rarely ever alone.



KodiBarracuda said:


> This is what worries me the most. Did your vet tell you to take her off of the Prozac and the Elavil? You should never stop a mood altering drug cold turkey. In humans it can cause headache, nausea, pins and needles, tremor, difficulty sleeping, intense dreams, dizziness, agitation and anxiety, in short, withdrawal. It is also a terrible, terrible idea to stop a psychotropic drug without the vets permission, I'm no vet but in humans they usually wean the person off of the drug to prevent these side effects.
> 
> I agree with what the others have said though. You need to go back to the basics. Tether her to you or keep her in the crate when you cant watch her. Don't give her to opportunity to get into trouble and you wont have a reason to punish her.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

foreverlaur said:


> I had a positive attitude. I had a positive attitude for the first year plus that I dated my boyfriend. Me and his dog were best friends. We'd have sleepovers, play dates, etc. We got along super well. This only started 5 months ago when the sleepovers became permanent stays. We had a strong and trusting bond established. She listened to me. We got along. I watched her for 1-2 weeks at a time a lot when my boyfriend traveled for work (at my apartment where she lives now). No problems. Wonderful dog. Well behaved.
> 
> Then BAM it all changed. For no reason any of us can come up with. I worked my butt off and spent thousands of dollars trying to figure out what happened and how to fix it. Nothing worked thus far and I'm at my wits end at this point. I'm thousands of dollars in debt over this dog and my home is trashed. I just don't have the energy to spend my days cleaning poop and pee off my furniture, floors, and walls. Just an hour ago she pooped in her crate even though we had just spent a pleasant 30 minutes hanging out in the back yard. By the time I discovered it, she had rolled around in it and jumped on the spare bed and rolled the poop all over the bed. For no reason. We'd let her do whatever she wanted with no negativity or corrections. I'd just given her a special dog treat when we came in from outside, petted her, and praised her (she didn't howl the whole time she was outside).


If she pooped in her crate, how did she get out to mess up the bed? If someone let her out, why didn't they notice the poop?

If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like it was you two moving in together and combining households that was the point this all started? For 1+ years, things were great, you got along, and then, about 5 months ago, when you two moved in together and the dog moved with him, this all began?

To me, not having any chance to see all this in person, it sounds like this probably began as the dog having problems adjusting to the move and being part of this new family, with you and your dog. That likely could have started the deterioration of the relationship between you two. (Not surprisingly...who enjoys having their stuff ruined?!) Then, it sounds like this likely spiraled further out of control and the more you tried to gain control of the situation, the more anxious and fearful and out of control the dog became.

Does this sound correct or am I missing some important points or timelines here? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the timeline and details.

I think the MOST pressing issue at this point is containment. This dog should not be allowed to be jumping on the bed if you can't be sure she's housebroken at this point. Is your BF helping with her and with the cleanup when there is a mess? I'd go back to the very basics of keeping this dog on a leash or crated or penned and not allowing it any free run of the house. She should not be allowed to make all this extra work for you and if something is messed up, your BF should be helping you to clean it up. It's hard to work on rebuilding a relationship with a dog that is allowed to mess up your things every time you turn around, so I think that has to be made to stop first. I'd take away her free roaming privileges and go back to basics with housetraining.

I still would not introduce corrections right now. Again, I'm not against corrections, but I think it will only make this situation worse, right now. Ideally, your BF needs to step up and take the lead so that you can have a bit of a break here and not be so frustrated with the dog. Then you can work on rebuilding a relationship with her without the constant frustration of dealing with her messes.

I can see, though, why he wouldn't want to rehome his dog at this point. They have been together many years, with everything fine and it's only been 5 months that this has been going on. (5 long months for you, but compared to the 6+ good years to him?) I think a certified canine behaviorist would be worth looking into. They are different than trainers and vets and may have a different perspective that can help.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

I really hoped that since she knew me for over a year, had frequent sleepovers and play dates at my apartment, and spent several weeks here while my boyfriend was out of town on business that it would be OK. I would more understand the freak out over the move if it was all totally new but I'm a person she had known, loved, and respected for over a year and it was moving into a home she'd spent a pretty significant amount of time at over the past year... and all with no problems! Every time I would dog sit or she'd have sleepovers, my boyfriend would bring her food, toys, crate, and bed.

To the person that asked how she pooped in her crate and then dragged it out with her.... when we're home, her crate door is always open as that is her safe place. She's generally free to come and go as she pleases. We only lock the door when we go to bed or leave.

Also, I just tried watching a movie and having her on a leash to keep her near me so I could watch her at all times. I finally gave up and let her loose after she wailed at the top of her lungs for a solid 20 minutes and the neighbors came by to ask if we were OK. The minute I let her loose, she peed on me and ran and hid in the closet. Epic fail 

I should also add that it's only the people she knows that she hates (me, my boyfriend, my family, his family, his friends). When new people come over (like trainers, new friends, etc), she's on her best behavior. Happy, loving, and cuddly. And then new person tries to leave and she tries her hardest to leave with them. When we do not let her leave, she wails for a solid half hour no matter what we do. We actually let her leave once with a trusted friend (a person she didn't know) and figured she'd panic actually being away from home (she usually always does) and a few hours later when we went to pick her up, she again wailed and wailed at having to leave.

Unfortunately, we've had no luck exploring the option of getting her a new home. She has reverted back to being not potty or crate trained. She wails on a regular basis. She does not listen whatsoever. She's incurred monstrous vet bills. She now has a history of aggression (especially since a bite sent me to the hospital to get stitches and she's bitten over 30 times now). Non-kill shelters won't take her and any others will tell us she'll be put down because of the aggression. Everyone we talk to doesn't have the time for her because she basically requires around the clock supervision and care and if you leave her alone (anywhere for any length of time), you're guaranteed to have a mess to clean up.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

You're upset brcause the dog destroys your things, but you're also unwilling/unable to contain her. You also assume the dog "hates" you because it is acting anxious and afraid. Some dogs handle change better than others and 5 months is not a terribly long time.

Honestly, it sounds like you just want people to tell you to put the dog to sleep, but if it was ok up until 5 months ago, I'm betting it could be ok now...if you and BF were willing to change some things.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> You're upset brcause the dog destroys your things, but you're also unwilling/unable to contain her. You also assume the dog "hates" you because it is acting anxious and afraid. Some dogs handle change better than others and 5 months is not a terribly long time.
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like you just want people to tell you to put the dog to sleep, but if it was ok up until 5 months ago, I'm betting it could be ok now...if you and BF were willing to change some things.


It's not that I'm unwilling to contain her... it's that she wails and has "accidents" every time you contain her because she wants to be able to do whatever she wants. I tried it again tonight and disturbed the neighbors and got peed on.

And I'd understand 5 months if this was all brand new. But like I said before, she was familiar with me and spent about 1/3 of her time at my apartment for the past 1.5 years. We tried to very very gradually introduce her to this new place and transition her very very slowly.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

There is something terribly wrong with the "dog<>op relationship", right from the core. I mean, just look at the thread title for starters. And then, consider the language used throughout:
* wrong
* scold
* needs to potty on our schedule
* been bit
* snatch her
* force her
* make her
* spoiled rotten
* correct
* stuck up privileged b*tch
* refusing to be punished
* "ah ah ahh"
* make you drag her
* My dog uses an e-collar
* I have wanted to rehome the dog from day 1
* Epic fail
* she hates


Maybe I'm wrong but there doesn't seem to be any positive element of spirituality here, only resentment, annoyance, and disdain. IMO, a complete 180 degree turnaround in personal philosophies is a mandatory part of the program if this dog is to have any hope of recovery. If not, then euthanization may be the best option.

Not trying to be harsh, just offering my honest view of the situation is all.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

foreverlaur said:


> It's not that I'm unwilling to contain her... it's that she wails and has "accidents" every time you contain her because she wants to be able to do whatever she wants. I tried it again tonight and disturbed the neighbors and got peed on.
> 
> And I'd understand 5 months if this was all brand new. But like I said before, she was familiar with me and spent about 1/3 of her time at my apartment for the past 1.5 years. We tried to very very gradually introduce her to this new place and transition her very very slowly.


Again, you're attributing very human motivations to everything she does. This does not help her or you.

Some books to read...

The Other End of the Leash
Culture Clash
Bones Would Rain From the Sky

Dogs do not think like people. They think like dogs and everything you've described points to a frightened, anxious dog, NOT one out to get you. Just because you would not be anxious in a similar situation does not mean this dog is intentionally making your life hell.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh man, this dog sounds absolutely terrified and anxious of everything. It sounds like the dog was initially stressed with the move and then things spiraled down pretty rapidly from there.

Dogs can sense hostility towards them. She knows you're frustrated and angry with her and if that doesn't change, I'm not sure if anything will.

I'm going to third or fourth a behaviorist. You NEED to see one.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Sometimes, something happens in a dog's life that doesn't even register in our eyes/brain as being something of importance but throws their entire life out of control. 

There is a story about a breeding stallion who used to cover the mares in a specific barnyard. Every breeding for years he went out there and inseminated whatever mare they put in front of him. One day they brought him out and he panicked, wouldn't pay attention and wouldn't breed the mares. No one had any idea what had happened and no one could fix it. He was VERY important in their breeding setup with lots of breeders looking to use him. The people brainstormed for a long time and finally figured out that one day months ago the garage door at the end was open and a dog had knocked down some piping in there making a crash and the dog shot out. By making sure that the door was shut, the stallion went back to his duties. 

I have another friend who accidentally stepped on her dog's foot in front of a tire jump ONE TIME. After that, the dog refused to jump them. It took her MONTHS of desensitization training to get the dog comfortable again. It's amazing how animals connect events and items together. 

I would start right at the beginning as if she was a puppy you have just adopted. Back to all the basics. Sounds like you and your boyfriend did everything to settle her in carefully, but unfortunately sometimes things just happen. It seems like both of you are willing to put forth the money and time to get her better, but now it's time to invest for more time.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Op, you're just gonna have to suck it up and start all over with this dog. Bring your nose down a little, take a deep breath and try rebuilding a relationship with this dog.
She CAN tell you can't stand her now, that attitude WILL make her worse and she is suffering from your unwillingness to start over.
Confine the dog, house train her, be gentle with her, but don't coddle, don't be frustrated or mean with her, and get these ignorant ideas that she's a stuck up bitch out of your mind. She is a dog, she is scared.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

If you've wanted to rehome her from day, you haven't given her a fair chance. Give her one.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree with PetPeeve's assessment of your attitude towards the dog and with HollowHeaven and others who have said that your attributing human motivations to the dog are counter-productive. Try seeing her as a scared, anxious dog who perceives everyone around her as a threat instead of a "spoiled brat" who is out to ruin your life. 



Amaryllis said:


> If you've wanted to rehome her from day, you haven't given her a fair chance. Give her one.


Please, give her a chance to adjust to her new life once you've reassessed your relationship. I know you've said she has stayed at your house in the past, but it's one thing to have an overnight visit, and quite another to make a permanent move.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Read this: http://consciouscompanion2012.com/2013/08/05/was-it-for-spite-think-again/


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

SDRRanger said:


> Sometimes, something happens in a dog's life that doesn't even register in our eyes/brain as being something of importance but throws their entire life out of control.
> 
> There is a story about a breeding stallion who used to cover the mares in a specific barnyard. Every breeding for years he went out there and inseminated whatever mare they put in front of him. One day they brought him out and he panicked, wouldn't pay attention and wouldn't breed the mares. No one had any idea what had happened and no one could fix it. He was VERY important in their breeding setup with lots of breeders looking to use him. The people brainstormed for a long time and finally figured out that one day months ago the garage door at the end was open and a dog had knocked down some piping in there making a crash and the dog shot out. By making sure that the door was shut, the stallion went back to his duties.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah don't get me started on horses, there have been MANY MANY instances where on the track, horses have been spooked by something in a certain place on the track, for MONTHS they are wary of that place.

Even my horse, who is like one of the safest bomb-proof horses ... Ever. Will shy at anything on the track resembling a turtle, because in Houston when he was working the races one evening, he came upon one & almost stapled on it (they blend in to the sand & under the artificial light are hard to see) so now he will stutter-step (he's an old fat man so it's not really a "hard" spook) around anything that even looks like a turtle (to him anyway.)

Though I have never had a dog take one bad experience to the extreme like that, but then again I have cattle dogs, who are red to take kicks from cattle, so maybe they are just mentally tougher then most. I could never have the patience for a dog who wimped out because I stepped on their foot :/


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

We're still trying to figure out what could have triggered the behavior change. We tried having her stay with his parents for a while since that's something she's very familiar with and also had to stay with his brother for a while. It had zero effect on her behavior after several weeks.

I never wanted to rehome her from day 1. I figured she just didn't some time to adjust, but it kept getting progressively worse, trashed my home, and emptied my bank account. That's when rehoming became a consideration - she acts like she hates her life.

We tried the past 24 hours keeping her crated when she's not able to be directly supervised. So far, each time as resulted in an accident and almost around the clock wailing. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get evicted if this doesn't stop. I sat her bed next to the couch where we spent most of the time and she is to lay on her big comfy bed at all times. She pretty much makes every attempt to jump on the couch (not sure why, she's never been allowed on furniture ever) and if we don't allow her, she wails and urinates or defecates on her bed or the carpet. Then she ran away. So I put the leash on her so she couldn't run away and in 30 seconds flat, she chewed straight through the leash and ran off anyway.

Exasperated


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

foreverlaur said:


> We're still trying to figure out what could have triggered the behavior change. We tried having her stay with his parents for a while since that's something she's very familiar with and also had to stay with his brother for a while. It had zero effect on her behavior after several weeks.
> 
> I never wanted to rehome her from day 1. I figured she just didn't some time to adjust, but it kept getting progressively worse, trashed my home, and emptied my bank account. That's when rehoming became a consideration - she acts like she hates her life.
> 
> ...


I am trying to wrap my head around this .... I have had some difficult dogs in my time. Remember that I am not a certified behaviorist or trainer or vet ... and everything I am saying is from my own experiences and assumptions. 

It sounds as if she is very stressed out. I would definitely start with NILIF. I have no clue how much time you folks are home vs working. I am also wondering how much quality time she is getting. How much exercise she is getting. What is in her crate when she is put in it. .... why she has to stay on her bed at all times (other than her behavior) ... and when she tries to jump on the couch ... to me she is seeking attention ... and not getting any positive attention ... her pleas for positive attention are being rejected ... she wants love.

I understand your frustration. My last rescue Eddee has cost me almost all the furniture ... stuffed and wooden ... and 4 rooms of carpeting ... the hallway flooring... and one bathroom flooring ... in my Dad's new home. I did not give up ... Yes it is very tiring ... and extremely costly ....I really do understand how you feel ... honestly. And honestly I see a very anxious, fearful, soft, and confused dog. I think all the moving around has made her feel unsafe ... and she is trying to run away to that safe place ... and that safe place right now does not exist ... so her issues just keep escalating. But I am not a behaviorist .... soooooo ......

You need a break and a fresh start with this dog. The dog can feel your emotions for sure. This is one unhappy camper. 

Wish I could help. ....... If it were me I would try and give this dog a ton of positive interaction and quality bonding time as new reassurance that all is well .... even though she has trashed everything. She doesn't know any better. She is a dog.

I would give her a ton of exercise to help relieve her stress. I would also give all her meals in her crate and a bowl of water. I would keep a Kong and some safe toys in her crate as well. Maybe she wouldn't want to eliminate in it. I am seeing her as fearful of the crate ... wanting out for attention. She is just a dog and does not know how to seek the appropriate attention.

You all need a fresh start IMHO.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

We also thought she was seeking attention, but she does not want attention that is given. I am a nurse so I work three 12 hour night shifts and he works 8-5 Mon-Fri. So the dog is rarely alone. She pretty much gets constant attention. However, any cuddles are always forced. If you try to pick her up or put her on your lap, she'll squirm and squeal until you let her go. If you allow her to jump up on the couch with you, she always lays down as far away from you as possible. If you don't punish her for being up there and just let it go, she soon hops down like the appeal is lost.

Her crate is still her go to place. We often leave the door open for her and allow her to spend as much time as she wants in there, which is the vast majority of the time. She has a big soft bed in her crate as well as her favorite Nylabone and her soft squeaky toy. She doesn't touch them. However, that does not stop her from urinating and defecating in her crate on her own time on a routine basis. 

The reason we ask her to stay in her bed when she's out of her crate is for the sanity of our home. At least her going to the bathroom in the house is confined to one area. 

When she first moved in permanently to my home, we tried very hard to make her feel welcomed. We even put my dog in doggie daycare for a week so we could focus 100% of our attention on her. We loved, petted, cuddled, played, and got treats constantly. She still gets any and all attention she wants although it's extremely rare now. 

Unfortunately, playing is no longer an option as she hasn't show a desire to play in several months. We've tried buying her tons of new toys and tried all the old toys and we cannot get her to play at all.

Exercise is also not an option. She's never been an outside, go for a walk kind of dog. Her only real exercise was playing. She won't play now. She hates going outside (not new, always has) and refuses to go on walks (again, not new). If you put her off leash, she'll run back to the door the minute you look away. If you put her on a leash, she'll lay down and refuse to stand up no matter what type of encouragement you use (we've used treats, food, toys, people across the yard that she loves, verbal encouragement, etc). 

We have ALWAYS been more than happy to play, cuddle, and love on her whenever she wants. Unfortunately, she doesn't want it. It SEEMS like she's acting out for love and attention but then always rejects it when given. She's actually bit us several times for trying to cuddle her. She's never been much of a cuddle type dog, but never this bad.

Another odd thing we cannot figure out... sometimes her entire body will start shaking like she's truly petrified, but we cannot figure out why. I know it isn't a strange sudden sound because my dog sees fit to bark at every strange sound, no matter how quiet. It happens when she's in her bed, in her crate, and cuddling with us. It happens at our place, her old place, his parents place, doggie daycare, etc. She gets baths A LOT (because she gets herself covered in poop almost every day) and we bathe her in the same bathtub with the same shampoo and the same towels and by the same person every single time. However, about 1 in ever 6 or 7 baths, she violently shakes for hours after. Other times she'll shake for hours in the midst of a cuddle or pets. Or sometimes in the middle of eating dinner. Or be asleep and wake up suddenly and start shaking. There seems to be no pattern and no trigger. We almost wonder if she's hallucinating.

The vet is really starting to think she has a brain tumor since we're unable to find causes or fixes for most of the behavior. Unfortunately, a diagnosis costs thousands and even if she has a brain tumor, we cannot treat it.

I often do feed her in her crate since it's her favorite place. I give her the option to come out or stay in there and do whatever she chooses. We cannot leave her water in her crate, however. She has no ability to control her water intake (never has - has been checked for diabetes dozens of times). She'll drink infinite amounts of water. Several times she's gotten ahold of a large amount of water and she ended up looking 9 months pregnant and getting 4+ pitting and seeping edema in her legs from excessive water intake. It's been a problem her entire life. The only time we leave her water is a small amount when she's left in there for longer periods of time. Otherwise, we give her water before she goes in and right away when we let her out.



Abbylynn said:


> I am trying to wrap my head around this .... I have had some difficult dogs in my time. Remember that I am not a certified behaviorist or trainer or vet ... and everything I am saying is from my own experiences and assumptions.
> 
> It sounds as if she is very stressed out. I would definitely start with NILIF. I have no clue how much time you folks are home vs working. I am also wondering how much quality time she is getting. How much exercise she is getting. What is in her crate when she is put in it. .... why she has to stay on her bed at all times (other than her behavior) ... and when she tries to jump on the couch ... to me she is seeking attention ... and not getting any positive attention ... her pleas for positive attention are being rejected ... she wants love.
> 
> ...


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

There are so many contradictions in your postings that I am confused. You say she has never been allowed on the furniture, then say she can get up for cuddles. She gets no exercise and has never been taught to even walk on lead. No wonder the dog does not know what to do. It is also not normal for a dog to drink water to that excess which does make it seem like there is some medical problem going on.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> There are so many contradictions in your postings that I am confused. You say she has never been allowed on the furniture, then say she can get up for cuddles. She gets no exercise and has never been taught to even walk on lead. No wonder the dog does not know what to do. It is also not normal for a dog to drink water to that excess which does make it seem like there is some medical problem going on.


Almost like cushings disease????? ......... Did they test for that? Or maybe the dog is just doing it out of stress ......


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Have them test for diabetes. 

I haven't even read most of your posts OP but I can tell from the responses that there are many contradictions and that you're putting a sense of *knowing* between right and wrong on your dog, who remember - is a dog. 6.5 years old or not, she's still a dog. 

I did read the first post, and from that post, I gathered that she is a seriously fearful, anxious and sensitive dog. It also sounded as though you don't really *know* her, more that you just expect certain behaviours and otherwise she's 'just a dog'. I think seeking out a certified behaviourist and having your vet run further tests and more in depth bloodwork and examinations would be a really wise idea as there is absolutely something going on. 

The dog may also just be stressed out, I bet she would love going for a walk on a leash. Sounds like she's just plain fearful of being outdoors so doing something that makes outside more fun would be of benefit and may even help her to relieve herself outside again. Please try to remember that she is not doing anything with a motive... She doesn't mean to drive you crazy...


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

This is why doctors always ask for a medical history. Here are more hints as to her overall condition. Excessive drinking, not going for walks, shaking.

Has the vet looked into diabetes insipidus? A difficult to detect and treat disease that actually fits some of the issues you are having.
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/endocrine/c_dg_diabetes_insipidus#.UhpEKT_3O8Y


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

> I never wanted to rehome her from day 1.





foreverlaur said:


> I have wanted to rehome the dog from day 1


Jussayin'.


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## starrysim (Dec 2, 2012)

Poor doggie and poor OP and poor OP's boyfriend. What an awful situation! I do agree that OP is anthromorphizing excessively and being very negative (though I'm not sure I would be much more positive in this situation), but I find it hard to believe that the dog really changed so much. I was thinking health issues or possible brain tumour even before it came up in the conversation. I'm not an expert, of course, and I don't think anyone can "diagnose" the health/behaviour issue over the internet. I suggest OP to find a good local animal behaviourist. It's too bad that the cost of diagnosing a brain tumour is prohibitive. Can a local pet charity help out maybe? It would be worth a try.

Also, I would love to hear OP's boyfriend's take on the situation, in his words.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Honestly, I have to say that I think _something_ happened to the dog at some point, or may still be happening. A dog doesn't just randomly freak out at the sight of a zap collar if she's never been zapped by one. Even a nutsy dog. Young guys sometimes (especially after a few drinks) think it's hilarious to zap a dog and watch her scream, or do similarly stupid things. If there was a party at the house in which young guys were unsupervised, that would be my guess as to when it happened. If the only time she's out of the owners' control is at doggie daycare, I'd be looking at them for possible abuse situations. 

The whole thing is really reminding me of a kid who's acting up badly and his parents punish and threaten and freak out and everything, and it turns out the kid is being molested by his scoutmaster or gym teacher or someone and that's the reason for the behavior issues.


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## starrysim (Dec 2, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Honestly, I have to say that I think _something_ happened to the dog at some point, or may still be happening. A dog doesn't just randomly freak out at the sight of a zap collar if she's never been zapped by one. Even a nutsy dog. Young guys sometimes (especially after a few drinks) think it's hilarious to zap a dog and watch her scream, or do similarly stupid things. If there was a party at the house in which young guys were unsupervised, that would be my guess as to when it happened. If the only time she's out of the owners' control is at doggie daycare, I'd be looking at them for possible abuse situations.
> 
> The whole thing is really reminding me of a kid who's acting up badly and his parents punish and threaten and freak out and everything, and it turns out the kid is being molested by his scoutmaster or gym teacher or someone and that's the reason for the behavior issues.


Good points!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I kinda agree with Willowy.

Unless this dog has some sort of serious medical issue, I am having soooooo much trouble believing nothing has happened to her. Obviously she's an extremely sensitive dog, but I cannot believe that the simple act of moving to a new home, with people and dogs she's known for a long time and always gotten along with could cause her to scream and shake in fear 24 hours out of the day.
Or make her run away screaming when she even so much as hears a beep from a shock collar she *supposedly* never ever wore... 

I know I sound really accusatory and condescending, but OP, if you, or your boyfriend, or any of y'all's friends have EVER screamed at this dog, hit her, or put that shock collar on her and used it, you're going to have to fess up and admit it to each other and yourself and start over with this dog.


And lets be real here, if you guys are too lazy to admit your mistakes and start over, then the dog needs to be rehomed because she is *beyond* miserable living with you. This dog is living in absolute fear and upset all hours of the day for some unapparent reason. Pawn something, have her checked one more time for thyroid problems, for diabetes, for a brain tumor, for SOMETHING. Tell the vet EXACTLY what's happening and if she comes back 100% fine, either exit the relationship or find a breed rescue for this poor little dog so she can go back to having a peaceful life, if it's possible.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> And lets be real here, if you guys are too lazy to admit your mistakes and start over, then the dog needs to be rehomed because she is *beyond* miserable living with you. This dog is living in absolute fear and upset all hours of the day for some unapparent reason. Pawn something, have her checked one more time for thyroid problems, for diabetes, for a brain tumor, for SOMETHING. Tell the vet EXACTLY what's happening and if she comes back 100% fine, either exit the relationship or find a breed rescue for this poor little dog so she can go back to having a peaceful life, if it's possible.


Absolutely agree ^
Well said. I have a bulldog too, they are really sensitive! A simple "Toby, No" in a stern voice is enough for my bully to get the hint. When he was a young puppy, we used a squirt bottle to help with certain teachings (such as if he chewed the furniture he got told no and then squirt with the water), even though this worked wonderfully, I don't think I would ever use it again to help train a dog... We have lizards and a snake who need to be misted, using a squirt bottle, on a fairly regular basis. When we lift the bottle to spray the lizards and snake, Toby scurries away. He is SCARED of the squirt bottle. If you pick up a bottle of anything that has any liquid substance in it, and shake it, he runs because he is SCARED that he is going to be squirted. 

You would think water in a squirt bottle wouldn't be traumatic, but clearly.. Toby is easily upset by this. I would like to believe that you've been great with your dog, but there IS fear here, and it sounds like there IS a medical problem here as well. You need to come clean with yourself and realise that there's been a mistake made and repeated along the way that he instilled this behaviour, then you need to decide if you want to try and fix your relationship with the dog, or re-home her because she cannot possibly live a happy life with this constant anxiety... She needs to be somewhere she feels safe all the time.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

This is why when mine are puppies (if I get them as such) I make every negative thing I possibly I can into a positive:

Pots falling on the floor? Praise & a treat 

Someone ambushing them from behind? Treat party 

Stepping on them (for this I am bare footed & don't actually step hard enough to hurt them)? Treat party


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## Sena Hansler (Jun 26, 2012)

Make sure to do a vet visit to rule out anything that is medically wrong. Drinking a lot of water can actually be a sign of internal issues, such as urinary tract infection, or even liver failure... Some things are minor, others are VERY bad and must be dealt with as soon as possible.

Other than that this is what I found: I have wanted to rehome since day one. Seriously. I have. The dog I have is a right pain in the butt  Not her fault though... Looking at her past, it's bad habits learned and good habits never learned! But what I found:

1. Consistency. She won't ever be allowed on the couch. Ever. Not only "when I say not to be" but all the time. Not allowed up. At all. Why? Consistence. Dog sees: Okay... I am allowed the on the couch." I bet the doggy is on the couch if not crated at night or when you are not home...  Now they realize "you are home, I can't go there. But when you turn your back... ;D"

2. Be positive. Stop giving yourself migraines. If you BELIEVE in something, it'll happen. I'm not even kidding in this circumstance. You BELIEVE this dog is either a waste of time, stupid, or impossible to train. Are they really? I had to learn this. Besides, yelling and getting mad only confuses the dog. As people we give mixed signals... When we are angry, our "logic is flawed" so to speak. You know how an argument gets out of hand between two people? Everyone is frustrated and sometimes someone does not know what the heck is going on? That's your dog. And in turn it creates tension and stress in a dog...I have seen it first hand with a friend's dog who was so stressed and tense from the household's anger and frustrations, that when he came over I let him flop like an angry wild shark on a rod. He had to get ALL that out, to be trainable. It's like how we hold things in... eventually we explode! 

About being positive: Okay, yes, I admit... I thought my dog would be impossible to train. She seriously is HARD to train, but not impossible. I have to retrain her... Get all the stupid that was trained into her, out! So, with consistency, I go in with "today we WILL achieve this". If you are easily frustrated and give up because you go in with "fine, we'll do this for the HUNDREDTH time, not like it will change." Then you will get EXACTLY what you have. Because you forgot to believe in YOUR ability. If you don't have the assertive positive mannerism, your dog will know that. And will walk all over you.

3. Don't stick to one method/tool. I use: halti, high collar, 5 meter leash, 4.5 foot leash, toys, can'o'pennies, tried treats (she isn't a treat dog), umbilical training, firm hand, and gentle hand. Why? Because the halti isn't going to help during certain times. It agitates her. But the short leash is no good to teach her to play nicer with people with her toys, so the 5 meter leash is handy. But that long leash won't work for training to walk on a leash, heel, sit or lay down. The treats don't work (dang!  ), so I use petting and praise as a treat. Etc Etc so on so forth!  Besides... You can never know what works for YOUR dog, unless you try. But you have to be WILLING to try, pushing away that negative "nothing works" mind set.


4. Sensitive dog: Make yourself and each other's point made, and make those rules! "DO NOT HIT". Some dogs can use those special collars...Or those fancy gadgets... Some cannot. Don't create havoc, end it. You don't want a frustrated pooch who ends up aggressive from fear! Fear aggression is so hard to work out. If you feel angry or frustrated at work, at home... You NEED to work on that first. Your dog knows you are tense. You are now vunerable, and a threat... At the same time. If you feel like you are about to smack the dog, take a breather, walk away, calm down. Make sure your partner knows this too. I have to get mine on track, so not like you are alone  Don't touch, look, or speak to the dog when you are not in a stable mindset. It will make things worse if you do. I ignore mine when I feel frustrated. I get rid of said frustration (whatever reason it came from, whether to do with her or not), and come back to whatever it is we were doing, thinking more clearly. 

If all else fails get a punching bag  Ceiling or corner one. Or find an outlet. Walk. Run. See a movie. Dance. Sing. Flail around. I don't know, anything that gets that pent up feeling out.


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## Teds-slave (Nov 14, 2012)

I agree that punishment does not work, it's probably made he anxious. A distraction, and a correction (like one sharp pull on leash ) and a "aaaahh!", making her sit and give her checks on the leash to correct is a better way. Distraction with. Smelly treat or a toy. If something has been destroyed, there is no point in correction unless you actually catch them in the act.


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## Sena Hansler (Jun 26, 2012)

It's like the idea of "stopping pooping in the house". You don't catch it, you can't really correct it. 

I do what Teds-slave said: Sharp correction with the leash (don't full on choke the dog!), and an associated sound works. My girl is "tss" for sound (less used in verbal commands lol), and she now understands it perfectly. Don't forget to encourage the listening


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Punishment - which is what has been described in the two previous comments - is _not_ what this dog needs. The dog is stressed, possibly has a medical condition causing the issues, and using punishment-based techniques have the potential to backfire in a huge way.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I wonder what became of this poor dog


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> It's like the idea of "stopping pooping in the house". You don't catch it, you can't really correct it.
> 
> I do what Teds-slave said: Sharp correction with the leash (don't full on choke the dog!), and an associated sound works. My girl is "tss" for sound (less used in verbal commands lol), and she now understands it perfectly. Don't forget to encourage the listening


This is horrible advice for any dog.
But particularly terrible for this dog.

Sena, OP's dog is scared of everything, out of her mind afraid to where she won't even go outside, won't be touched and screams in fear at every little noise and movement.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> This is horrible advice for any dog.
> But particularly terrible for this dog.
> 
> Sena, OP's dog is scared of everything, out of her mind afraid to where she won't even go outside, won't be touched and screams in fear at every little noise and movement.


I'm not against corrections in all situations, but even I wouldn't recommend corrections for a dog that is behaving this way. It's likely the dog would fall apart even more and her behavior would only get worse.

I hope the dog turned out ok.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

HollowHeaven said:


> Unless this dog has some sort of serious medical issue, I am having soooooo much trouble believing nothing has happened to her. Obviously she's an extremely sensitive dog, but I cannot believe that the simple act of moving to a new home, with people and dogs she's known for a long time and always gotten along with could cause her to scream and shake in fear 24 hours out of the day.


I believe it's possible because I've experienced it.

When we had to live in the temporary housing, Wally HATED every minute of it (which got a bit disheartening because we where there for months while the house largely rebuilt). It was like the "old" Wally was trying to come back. He whined more, stayed glued to me more, visibly shook more. He wasn't left there alone any more than usual and I always spent the same amount of time around him during the day and we still trained and played, etc. 

So I don't doubt that a new home can create/rekindle fearful emotions. Heck, Wally was slightly afraid when we went to our reconstructed home because there was no furniture. His landmarks were gone, etc. 

As far as being scared when the OP hasn't done anything - Wally used to be scared of me playing my computer games - I doubt anyone used that as a cue to beat him. He was scared of cords not flat on the ground - it's possible he could have been whipped, but unlikely. Same for me holding a book - they could have thrown books at him, but it's not a 100% certainty. Especially when he's scared of a piece of paper falling on the floor and touching him unexpectedly. 

It's possible they could have triggered it, but it's also possible their dog is just highly fearful and sensitive/emotionally "fragile". I don't consider EITHER scenario out of the question. 

That said, why do people want to attempt to use +P on fear? 

You can't punish or reward a non-rational behavior. The dog isn't choosing to be afraid, he just feels afraid. You can punish/reward the behavioral response to the emotion (like when I rewarded Wally for running back to sit close to me if he's scared), but I can't "reward the fear" just like yelling/correcting him for being scared is just going add another scary event on top of a situation he already felt scared in. Not a winning strategy.

Only answer, regardless of the (non-medical) cause of the fear is to work to change the emotional association of the event(s), and that takes time and consistency, and vigilance.


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## starrysim (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm also wondering what's going on with this dog, I've been following this thread closely. I'm afraid that OP came here asking us for an effective "punishment," and when she didn't get that, she may have decided this is not the place she should be looking  Or maybe they did re-home the dog.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

KBLover said:


> I believe it's possible because I've experienced it.
> 
> When we had to live in the temporary housing, Wally HATED every minute of it (which got a bit disheartening because we where there for months while the house largely rebuilt). It was like the "old" Wally was trying to come back. He whined more, stayed glued to me more, visibly shook more. He wasn't left there alone any more than usual and I always spent the same amount of time around him during the day and we still trained and played, etc.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that in some cases, a dog can have a severe reaction to a simple change in environment; however, the OP and boyfriend have had the dog since she was 4 weeks old and, according to the OP, the dog never exhibited any anxiety or fearfulness until recently. Again, if I'm reading the OP's posts correctly, the dog has lived in several locations with a variety of people and has been "a very well behaved dog her entire life. She picked up potty training quickly and was always very responsive, loving, and playful." and "She's been a wonderful dog. Very easy to train, no behavioral issues, very sweet, very loving, etc."

It sounds as thought there was a recent, dramatic change in the dog's behavior and general demeanor for no apparent reason, according to the OP.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

cookieface said:


> It sounds as thought there was a recent, dramatic change in the dog's behavior and general demeanor for no apparent reason, according to the OP.


Then that sounds like it might be a medical issue (like when Wally suddenly started spacing out and just "randomly" freezing for several seconds - it was the onset of his epilepsy).

Or it's one of those "sudden" things that looks that way because it's noticed when it's obvious, but signs were missed. 

Be interesting to see how it turns out. I just don't like fear dismissed so easily, in case someone reading does have a fearful dog and is seeing a sudden drastic relapse of the fear.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

KBLover said:


> Then that sounds like it might be a medical issue (like when Wally suddenly started spacing out and just "randomly" freezing for several seconds - it was the onset of his epilepsy).
> 
> Or it's one of those "sudden" things that looks that way because it's noticed when it's obvious, but signs were missed.
> 
> Be interesting to see how it turns out. I just don't like fear dismissed so easily, in case someone reading does have a fearful dog and is seeing a sudden drastic relapse of the fear.


Yes, it's certainly possible that subtle signs were missed early on and what looked like an obedient dog was a nearly shut down dog. But, all we have to go on is what's been written by the OP. 

I think most folks here said that, if the issue truly arose suddenly, the dog either has a medical issue or something caused the fear where none was present before. I believe it was suggested that even though the dog seemed fine after so many changes (I believe the dog lived in several different locations with the boyfriend before finally moving in the the OP), that this last move could have been the straw that broke the camel's back.


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## foreverlaur (Apr 4, 2010)

Updates:

(1) We took her to a third vet who did a full exam with full imaging and labs - everything is normal. 
(2) She has now been living here for 7 months with continually worsening symptoms and no improvement
(3) We have had her on clomipramine (60mg BID), tramadol (50mg TID), Dermaxx (25mg QD), Pepcid (10mg QD), Composure Pro (1 treat QD), and Xanax (2mg BID) for 3 solid months
(4) We eliminated any negativity from her life. Instead of correcting her for bad behavior, we instead only reward her for good behavior. We have been doing this for 1.5 months solid with zero improvement. She still continues to almost exclusively choose to do the bad behavior.
(a) When going on walks, she frequently puts on the brakes and refuses to move (generally every few steps). We opted to stop, and kindly ask her to continue on and when she does, praise and treat
(b) We stopped correcting her for going potty inside and instead just reward and praise for going potty outside
(c) We stopped correcting her for jumping on the furniture and instead, reward her when she goes back to her bed (we usually have to ask)
(5) "Accidents" are continuing to increase. She'll potty on the carpet right after getting out of her crate or right after coming back from outside (and refusing to go potty). As a result, some negativity we have had a tough time removing. For example, one day she pooped in her crate numerous times (my boyfriend let her out around 730am and I found this when I woke up around 10am). I took her out of her crate and let her outside. She did not potty and I started washing her bedding. I put her backup bed in her crate and put her back in her crate. I went to the gym for an hour and when I returned, she had pooped again in her crate. I let her outside and then since she was a filthy mess so I put her in the spare bathroom shower (where we bathe her). I wet her and shampooed her and let it sit for 10-15 mins (per bottle instructions). When I returned, she had pooped in the shower and rolled around in it. Started the bath process all over again. Same thing happened a second time. Third bath = SUCCESS! However, she HATES baths and she HATES that shower and will just shake and cry when we have to bathe her. However, we don't have much of a choice if she insists on getting covered in her own poop on an almost daily basis.
(6) She cries all night as she has to be put in her crate. We've tried putting her crate in the bedroom with us. We've tried the main living area. We've tried under the desk (where it usually is during the day) and in the spare bedroom. We've tried treats, toys, white noise, dark blankets, and light. Nothing helps. If we let her out of her crate to sleep (what she wants and what she used to do), we wake up to pee and poop in the room EVERY single time. Even if we wake up every 3 hours in the night to take her out - she'll always have an "accident."
(7) The accidents aren't true accidents. Often, her bowel movements are strained and small like she's forcing it out. When she goes to doggie daycare or to stay with his parents, she has zero accidents always asks to go outside to go potty. Unfortunately, his parents have moved so she's no longer able to stay with them. Also unfortunately, the no "accidents" was the only behavior that improved in a different environment. 
(8) She has recently decided to barely eat. She had that issue quite a number of months ago where she practically starved herself to death and we had to syringe feed her critical care food. She got her back and started medicating her for depression and anxiety and she got her appetite back and resumed begging for food and always eating her doggie food and asking for more. The past 3 weeks or so, she has had zero interest in food. We can sometimes get her to eat about 1/3 of her food if we put peanut butter on it and throw in treats. She's started losing a ton of weight again. We tried Vitamin B (heard that can increase appetite in dogs) with no success. We also stopped the tramadol for a while (being used as a mild sedative) to restart the mirtazapine and it also did not help her appetite at all. We simply cannot afford to syringe feed her critical care food for the rest of her life and have no idea why she won't eat. It's not a lack of appetite (we think) because if we buy her her favorite treats (doggie Reeses cups) she'll eat them by the gallon. But that's about all she's willing to eat. And she cannot survive on that.
(9) She still bites if you try to make her do anything she doesn't want to do (and that often includes baths when covered in poop and going otuside to go potty). She actually got my hand so hard it caused deep tissue injury and bone bruising. It also required stitches. 
(10) Her fear has increased. If she's on the back porch and we're outside throwing ball with my dog, she's petrified. Even though I'm throwing the ball nowhere near her and in the opposite direction of her, she screams and cowers every time I throw the ball. We have NO idea where this comes from because she has NEVER been hit, kicked, punched, thrown, etc in her life.

Although we thought we were at a loss before, we're REALLY at a loss now. It's been long enough that you think she would have adjusted to living here. Especially considering we did the transition slow (had her stay for an overnight, then for some weekends, then for a week while my boyfriend was on business, etc). We also hoped the medications would help. We also hoped we would find some sort of medical explanation. Nothing. She was a happy, playful, loving, spoiled, sweet, and very well behaved dog for 6 solid years until she moved in to my apartment. 

Even if the slow move into a new place suddenly made something "snap" and cause all this behavior - how do we fix it?? We've tried numerous certified dog behavioral therapists. We've been to numerous vets. We've ruled out every physical/medical cause in the book numerous times. We've tried a lot of medication with zero improvement. We've tried love, cuddles, no negativity, showers of praise and treats.... nothing helps.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

So ... It's ok if I see my dogs doing something I don't want them doing, (like if Josefina is digging for example) like if I tell them "no!" Then give them a behavior to do instead (like "come" for example) and lay down on the porch is that aN acceptable way to handle undesirable behavior? 

I also never call my dogs behavior "bad", more "desirable" or "undesirable " to me.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I am NOT a vet, and NOT an expert by any means (just getting that out there)

but we have had shelter dogs in that age range that something snaps and doesn't go back.

Being a puppy mill dog and given the obvious vet counseling and stuff you've tried, I don't think its impossible to consider something physically wrong that you can't see, like a brain tumor or some sort of degenerative brain disorder.

What you should do now (and definitely nothing based off of my amateur opinion, I'm just thinking out loud) I'm not sure.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I just like to make sure that all of my dogs interactions are positive ... Or as positive as they can be.


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## starrysim (Dec 2, 2012)

OP - Thanks (on behalf of everyone, I think) for coming back and giving us an update. It sounds like you and your bf have put a lot of effort into the situation, and have really listened to the consensus on this forum regarding how to deal with her behaviour. I feel so awful for you that things haven't gotten better. It really does sound like you've tried everything. Despite the vet diagnosis (or lack of), I really strongly suspect a mental health issue or neurodegenerative disease (dogs do get Alzheimer-like diseases). If I was in your situation, at this point I would try to contact a good rescue (emphasis on good), and maybe work out an agreement where your dog can go into temporary foster care with one of their very experienced volunteers. Maybe someone with more experience and used to dealing with special needs dogs could have some success with her, and then help her integrate back into life with you (and maybe at that point you could move, if you're living in a temporary rental situation. I just don't see how the dog could live in this place after such an extended period of time of bad experiences). Now, I'm by no means at all an experienced dog owner, and I've never heard of such an arrangement, but it's just a thought for a situation where it seems that you've exhausted your options. Failing that, I would consider euthanasia  (although I really can't be sure if I could ever do that, especially after 6 years of having a wonderful pet).


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I would consider euth. at this point too, or finding a rescue and beg them to help you.

This dog must live a miserable life.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

What was this dogs background? I can't remember if you told us or not or if you knew or not. Was she from a puppy mill or shelter environment? Sometimes dogs from shelters or puppy mills and even hoarding situations can be hard to house train and have a hard time adjust to "normal" life.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

OP, where are you located? You can PM me if you like. I kind of deal with the ones "beyond the point of return" and I'd like to help you in any way I can, placement if possible.


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## PragueRatter (Aug 6, 2013)

Has your vet ever mentioned brain disease or mental illness? Dogs can get many mental illnesses including schizophrenia, OCD, depression, extreme fear phobias.

Its worth taking a good look at this article http://voices.yahoo.com/the-signs-mental-illness-dogs-7702426.html?cat=53 because its time your dog had a diagnosis. 

Its also very possible the dog has a brain disease. Has the dog ever been tried on corticosteroids or immunosuppressive drugs ?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> What was this dogs background? I can't remember if you told us or not or if you knew or not. Was she from a puppy mill or shelter environment? Sometimes dogs from shelters or puppy mills and even hoarding situations can be hard to house train and have a hard time adjust to "normal" life.


They got her from a pet store at 4 weeks old. The store was going to euth her due to medical expenses, according to the OP.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

That's quite the chemical cocktail she's been subjected to.

Personally. If I was out of my gourd on dope, and someone lathered me up and contained me in a VERY strange environment - then left me ALONE in that environment for 10 minutes - I'd probably crap myself too.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

When I was reading the first couple posts I was thinking "I wonder what happened in the backyard that this dog is suddenly so scared to go out to pee/poop?" As the story is unfolding, if the descriptions are an accurate representation of what's happening (not accusing you of lying, OP, just that it's hard sometimes for internet descriptions to really convey real-life occurrences) this dog goes way beyond "the usual" and I have to think this poor dog essentially has some kind of mental illness, specifically some kind of panic disorder. Brains are brains, and neurotransmitters are neurotransmitters, and if people can get anxiety and panic disorders that are severe enough to completely debilitate them there's no reason a dog couldn't, too. It's just so hard to diagnose something like that in an animal that can't communicate in English.

Is there ANYTHING you can think of in your environment that might be scaring her? Train tracks or airport nearby, for example, or a warehouse where big trucks might be loading and unloading at all hours of the day and night? Any neighborhood kids or dogs that might have frightened her? Some kind of alarm or device in the home that gives off noises or tones regularly (like a CO detector or fire alarm with a "battery is good" tone)? 

This is a long shot but how is the wiring in your home and how old is your home/building? Some people are really sensitive to electrical fields and can have symptoms like dizziness, headaches, nausea, paranoia, etc. if they are exposed to poorly insulated wiring, etc. The fact that she is better out of your home when you are taking steps to address what is going on just really makes me wonder if something in her environment is the problem, it's just... again, she can't speak English so it's frustrating to figure it out. 

Good luck. This sounds awful and maddening and frustrating and sad.


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## Chriz17 (Oct 27, 2013)

I definitely agree with what packetsmom has said. She definitely seems fearful and even a well-meaning "ah ah ah" can be taken as a punishment. She's making a connection between that noise/your actions and something negative that has happened in the past. As stated before it sounds like you've been correcting her a whole bunch and I would suggest that it's put to a halt. I'm aware that you've already been working with two trainers, but were they using the positive approach? Just because they're certified doesn't mean their training style will work best for your dog. She's going to need someone who is experienced working with fearful dogs and uses only positive reinforcement.
I noticed that you got her at four weeks of age and from a pet store? She most likely came from a puppy mill and received little or no critical socialization with her mother or siblings during that time. Reputable breeders will never sell to pet stores, and they will never let them go to new homes before the puppy is a minimum of eight weeks old. This is because up to about 7-8 weeks the pup needs structured discipline from mom and siblings including bite inhibition as well as socialization and perspective of the world. A pup separated too early may have a very difficult time in the future because they did not learn those critical lessons so early in life. It may also be because of poor genes/temperament, which is very likely for a puppy mill.

In addition to the above may I also suggest clicker training. I would definitely give it a shot because this method uses a purely positive approach that she can't confuse for correction. She will quickly learn that the click means she did something good and will be rewarded for it. Clickers only cost about a dollar or two and you can find them at most pet stores and online. There are also many helpful books and websites that I'd suggest looking at.

I've included some links for you to check out. I wish you the best of luck, and remember, there is always still hope! She should get better in time with the right approach. 

http://bestfriends.org/Resources/Pe...nd-Your-Pet/?gclid=CLqEnOX9uboCFfFj7AodFysAPQ
http://www.clickertraining.com/dog-training
http://www.clickertraining.com/


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> They got her from a pet store at 4 weeks old. The store was going to euth her due to medical expenses, according to the OP.


Oh ok, that explains a lot now, I had two rescue dogs (at different times) thy were per of puppy mill seizures, I couldn't crate train them. I had to use the X pen method with them with newspapers on the floor under the whole span of it (for cleanup in the event of an accident) because they were kept in small cages they got used to "going" where they slept. 

I also agree about what someone said about some (not all but some) dogs where something "snaps" and doesn't bounce back. Buddy is like they about se things like leashes, collars and walking on a leash. He hates it and will always hate it, he also hates being tied to something but we have been working on that too. 

It's hard to overcome a bad start and some dogs can't move past it and some owners don't have it in them to help the dog and there is nothing wrong with that, either.


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