# How To Stack? Pictures?



## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

I always wondered how this was achieved
Is it a position that the dog gets in themselves or do you have to command them to do it?

Is it different per each breed/dog because their shapes are different?

I don't know much about this at all so any info you could provide would be useful! Or if there was any literature you've read and thought was helpful could you link it? Or any diagrams you like/think represents a good stack?

I take a ton of photos of my dog and I'd like to attempt stacking her. 
Bare with me, I'm not very literate in a lot of terms you potentially may use here!

Thanks!

Ps- If you have any pictures of your dogs in a stack that you like, could you post it? I was googling but a lot of the information on multiple sites were contradicting and a little confusing.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I know it is a different position depending on the breed. Some dogs will free stack (without aid) some need to be lured into position and sometimes you have to reposition their legs in order to get the correct position.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Most people start by hand stacking. You either hold the dog's head, or let them nibble a treat while you place each foot individually. There are tricks to make it easier to do, like if you want to pick up the dog's right front foot, take his head and move his balance over to his left side a bit so he will easily let you pick up the right foot. Always grab the front legs above the knee (around the elbow) and the rear legs above the hock. There isn't really a cue - I just kind of walk the dog into the position so they are naturally as stacked as possible (the less feet I have to move the faster and easier it is), move his feet around, and I tell him to stay. 

Some people progress to free stacking. It's not really done in my breed, but in others everybody free stacks and dogs must be proficient. This uses more body language to kind of walk the dog up and back until the feet are right. It's much trickier than hand stacking of course, but good handlers make it look easy. This is typically put on cue and a well trained show dog will just stack themselves up. Terriers, for example, just seem to stack themselves up naturally which often makes them good show dogs. Typically dogs put together very well will naturally stand in a stacked position.

Stack varies a bit by breed, but most breeds are really the same - front feet straight down (you can point your index finger down and hold it along the front of the leg as a guide), back feet out so that the bone below the hock is straight up and down, front feet should be lined up and back feet should be lined up. The dog is standing four square. GSDs are obviously quite a bit different, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head that are stacked differently. Of course the outline of the dog will look different from breed to breed because of structure, but the basics are the same. There are breed differences in whether people tend to hold the collar or the head once the dog is stacked but that's a style thing. There are also all sorts of tricks to get the dog kind of leaning forward up on their toes instead of slouching which just looks better.

Here are a couple pics of my dogs. In this one, everything is in the right place but he's kind of slouchy. He was really cranky and bored when we took this.









In this one he's much more up on his toes which is a better look:









Here's a good one to critique what is wrong with the stack if you want to give it a shot. She's a puppy and puppy stacking is hard, but I can see a couple things that really need to be adjusted.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Oooh fun!
Thanks for the info, super helpful.

From your description I think the front legs could be straightened underneath her a little better, and the back legs under the hock... If I'm seeing correctly, isn't straight like you said it should be, right? More diagonal-y. So does that mean she's stretched too far out, or not far enough? She looks super stretched, but that could just be untrained eye and puppy-body contributing.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kdawnk said:


> Oooh fun!
> Thanks for the info, super helpful.
> 
> From your description I think the front legs could be straightened underneath her a little better, and the back legs under the hock... If I'm seeing correctly, isn't straight like you said it should be, right? More diagonal-y. So does that mean she's stretched too far out, or not far enough? She looks super stretched, but that could just be untrained eye and puppy-body contributing.


Yep, she's really stretched in the front. Her front legs should be straight down, but she's "posting" - leaning back away from where her feet are planted. 

In the back she's not stretched enough because her feet need to move out more to make a straight line down from the hock.

So you were right! She's both stretched too much and not enough in different directions. Haha. You can also look at it as a whole body problem instead of just what is wrong with each of her feet. She's rocked back, which is causing all of the problems. If I could somehow grab her between the shoulder blades and push her forward she would be over her front feet and her back feet would probably end up in just the right position. I could have accomplished this by moving the bait forward and in a practiced adult dog that would be have been enough, but puppies are squirmy and she would've moved all of her feet on me.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Hahaha great! 
No, that was super helpful to give me an example of a good stack vs working-on stack 
And thanks for defining the words you're using too!

So with my dog given she's a - potentially - German shepherd mix will I have to stack her differently? I noticed in some of Xeph's (sp?) threads that her dogs have one foot (back foot?) forward. Is that preference or mandatory for the shepherd breed?

Edit: I guess my girl doesn't have the... I don't know the correct way to say this... but the rounded rear legs that shepherds usually have.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kdawnk said:


> So with my dog given she's a - potentially - German shepherd mix will I have to stack her differently? I noticed in some of Xeph's (sp?) threads that her dogs have one foot (back foot?) forward. Is that preference or mandatory for the shepherd breed?


That is how all GSDs are stacked for the show ring. They do it naturally too though and will free stack on their own like that. They are very angulated in the rear which makes that stack work for them. Even other breeds with a ton of angulation (like Irish Setters, for example) don't stack the way GSDs do. They are very unique in that way so I wouldn't try to copy their stack. From your pics your dog looks like she has moderate angulation (not too straight, not to angulated) so a normal four square stack would be best for her.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Attempt 1 (Sorry for giant pictures)










Attempt 2









I didn't have a lot of time and for some reason couldn't find the "timer" button on my camera so I could go help hold her still, but she seems really uncomfortable with my adjusting her feet in her not usual body position. As soon as I move her foot back she'll pick it up and move it forward again. She also kept hunching because she was uncomfortable, any time I treated her she moved everything out of position. It was all just super awkward hahaha 

Critique is definitely welcome though, I won't take it personally. I can see some issues myself.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The second one isn't half bad! She should be more stretched in the back but it's a good start. It takes time to get it, and if you notice I posted professionally doe pictures because it's way easier to have someone tell you where to put each foot. I tried to get stacked shots of Hazel the other day and she roaches her back so much she looked like a camel. Lol they were awful. And then she almost fell off of the grooming table so we quit.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

I think she'd look better with her tail out from between her legs, but do I hold it up when she has a big tail like that? I guess you did with Hazel.
It would have been a lot easier if there were two of me ^.^

I thought the second one was pretty good. I was struggling fine tuning the back legs. I think for the straightness from the little area between foot and hock it went _okay_, but just for the over all look I think she'd look better with her back legs extended further back. Her back legs look so long haha, they go on for days.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Lol just for laughs, this is what a bad GSD stack looks like.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

You can do what you want for the tail. Sporting dog people hold it strait out and I would've held Hazel's out if it wouldn't have messed her up (that tail straight up is not a good look for a sporting dog!). But other breeds do it differently. You'd never see a sighthound person hold the tail out like a setter. That's all just the style part of it though. The basic stack will show the dog's structure and everything else is to emphasize or de-emphasize stuff. Like having the dog arch their neck and look down creates a pretty neck and can hide a short stubby neck a bit


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, the GSD weirdness is - just a thing. Thud *isn't* terribly angular doesn't slope at all, and obviously that's not as extreme as a GSD stack, but that's how he stands around, about 95% of the time (minus the weirdly turned in leg, IDK). It's just what's comfortable for him. He's rarely 4 square.

Here: 








Jack's son, stacked (though not overly well)


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Yeah 4 square isn't comfortable for her I'll try and get a picture of her during out walk tonight to see what she looks like standing normally and maybe that'll help me arrange her better.
I love that GSD stacking attempt by the way!!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Four square isn't necessarily comfortable for all dogs though it is the correct stack. They may not stand that way naturally because something is wonky in their structure that makes them want to stand another way. But other than purebred GSDs four square is still the correct stack to judge structure from. Watson is put together pretty well but even he doesn't stand stacked out normally and he will sometimes fight me about putting his back feet out where I want them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

YEah, for sure. Bug occasionally kicks a back leg out, top. The others don't, like... Ever. Kylie and Jack in particular really, really don't. Jack actually stops moving in a better stack (as judged by his show owner) on his own than with any other method/trying to get it. Go figure.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Yeah of course, I just meant that it may be easier to position her when I find her neutral position versus what I did today.
I tried to make her stand naturally but she wasn't having any of it. She kept roaching her back and trying to sit so I had to manually position each individual leg haha

But if I could work on just getting her to stand naturally with me, I could do better later in attempts to stack! Her default when I approach her is to sit so it's difficult to get much else.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's why some confo people never teach their dogs to sit. Of course the dogs can tell the difference and figure it out, but it is easier if their default behavior is a stand instead of a sit. Both of my dogs have a default sit and Watson will sit in the ring if we're not doing anything and I'm not making him stand.

I do think it helps to teach a stand first. Even if the dog isn't stacked properly, at least they understand the concept of standing on all four feet and holding it. I kind of taught Watson to stand and to stack at the same time, but going back I think I will teach Hazel a stand/stay first.

Try using a treat to lure her into a stand in front of you. Treat in right hand, you on your knees facing her. Get her as stacked as possible and then move the legs you need to move.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Ok, I made a video, but it's pretty terrible. Haha. First I show how I set Watson up at a show. He's a bit lame in the pelvis and doesn't want to put his back feet out, so I'm pretty fidgety with him and trying to do it slowly and gently, but you get the idea. Usually in a show I would try to do four quick moves, set up each foot, and then leave it be unless he was moving his feet after I set them. The less you mess with their feet the better, but it's really hard to get it right the first time and then you feel the need to mess with it forever.

Then I try to stack Hazel for basically the 3rd time in her life. Chaos ensues. LOL I cut out a lot where I kept trying to coax her into it and failed miserably. This is why people go to handling classes! She arches her back so bad too, which she has done since 7 weeks. I really need to work on that before we show in November or she's going to look awful. She doesn't have a roached back normally, so it's either just her way of showing extreme discomfort with what I'm doing, or she needs more conditioning.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

You attempting to stack Hazel gave me hope for being able to stack Sans sometime in the future. That's not EXACTLY how Sans was because I was telling her to "wait" (AKA - Hold whatever position you're currently in) but after I got the back legs to an ideal position she'd shuffle her front haha. Most likely also because I was taking so long, but she was super uncomfortable and gave me the roached, _"I've been abused my whole life" Sarah McLachlan dog commercial look._ just before I'd take a picture Haha!

Thanks for the video! I'd be interested in watching a training progress with Hazel to stack when you do it! If making videos wasn't a ridiculous hassle to you.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kdawnk said:


> Thanks for the video! I'd be interested in watching a training progress with Hazel to stack when you do it! If making videos wasn't a ridiculous hassle to you.


I might make videos! I pretty much only worked on this stuff with Watson in handling classes, but I might sign up for the Fenzi class on conformation next term and in that case I will definitely take videos. It's really hard to tell if you're doing it right without a mirror or someone watching you, so a camera would be helpful when working with her on my own. It's easy to think you've done a good job, and then see the picture and realize the dog was totally incorrect. It gets better with practice though.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Hahaha definitely.
I was trying to position her and stand at a distance and it was an awkward situation. I'd step back and be like, "oooh I should adjust her" but I just spent like 3 minutes putting her into that position to begin with haha


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

kdawnk said:


> Hahaha definitely.
> I was trying to position her and stand at a distance and it was an awkward situation. I'd step back and be like, "oooh I should adjust her" but I just spent like 3 minutes putting her into that position to begin with haha


Do you have a mirror you can put on the floor? That's the best way by far. And just do it for short bits, put her feet down and praise and release her, even if the feet aren't right. Once they get comfortable with you doing it and realize they need to keep their feet where you put them, then you can fuss around with correct placement.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

after seeing this, thought I would have fun and try it for my self and attempting it for a few days to get an ok stack:








A work in progress.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Bulldogs are set wider in the front then they are in the rear. So when you look through the front legs, you will see the rear. They should be pear shaped when you look at them from above.

Basically this:


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I need help with this because when I try to stack Lincoln, he always ends up looking like I abuse him.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I need help with this because when I try to stack Lincoln, he always ends up looking like I abuse him.


Lots of food, lots of happy positive experiences. Move one foot, wait a second, release and reward and throw a party. If you try to move too fast they will often put up with it, but be very annoyed by it and it doesn't make a nice happy picture.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Can't believe I haven't posted to this thread yet. I'll have to come back to this later and upload some comparative photos of my Afghans.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Lots of food, lots of happy positive experiences. Move one foot, wait a second, release and reward and throw a party. If you try to move too fast they will often put up with it, but be very annoyed by it and it doesn't make a nice happy picture.


He is almost 11 months, is it too late to start training? I will need to get registration pics soon LOL


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> He is almost 11 months, is it too late to start training? I will need to get registration pics soon LOL


No way! I didn't put Watson into a handling class until he was 9 months I think, and I had no idea what I was doing. You can do it any time. There's an art to it, but at the end of the day it's much easier to train than a lot of stuff we teach our dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> No way! I didn't put Watson into a handling class until he was 9 months I think, and I had no idea what I was doing. You can do it any time. There's an art to it, but at the end of the day it's much easier to train than a lot of stuff we teach our dogs.


Oooo I might look for a handling class!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Oooo I might look for a handling class!


One thing that's nice is that they are usually drop-in classes, so you don't have to pay for the whole term up front like most classes, just show up on the weeks that you can.


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## N Smith (Dec 6, 2012)

Here is my GSD, working line, in a stack. I showed him at one Canadian Kennel Club show (weekend) and he took home 6 points, which is amazing 1) because he is solid black and 2) because he doesn't have the over angulation, huge size and preferred color of most showlines.



For my Pomeranians, they stack square - I don't have a good pic on this computer. My Poms also self stack quite easily, but the Shepherd needs help with the back end. Though I have only shown him once with very minimal training, so I think with more training he would be fine to self stack.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think this should be a sticky! I wanted to post updated free stacked pics of Lincoln and had a heck of a time finding this thread! Granted he was not brushed in these, the opportunity presented itself and I took it and snapped these LOL


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

N Smith said:


> Here is my GSD, working line, in a stack. I showed him at one Canadian Kennel Club show (weekend) and he took home 6 points, which is amazing 1) because he is solid black and 2) because he doesn't have the over angulation, huge size and preferred color of most showlines.


I'm pretty sure your GSD wants to come and live with me. I can see it in his eyes. Can we arrange a drop-off day and time? 

Also marking this thread for reference after I get my monster puppy - will definitely want to do some stacking work with him.


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