# Overly Food-Motivated Dog?



## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

Hello all,

I could use a little help with my male yellow lab. Like most labs, he is a real chow hound - always hungry. When he's not eating, he's looking for food. Anyway, we are working on basic obedience right now, and I'm trying to decide whether or not to use treats as reinforcers. He is so food-driven that I thought treats would be a big help, but instead they seem to be working against me. When he knows I have treats on me, he doesn't pay attention to me at all; he is so busy trying to sniff what I have in my hands or pockets that he doesn't listen to commands. The trainer has me using vocal commands with hand signals; he watches my hands but not for the signals, only for food. Then he ignores the commands and sniffs my hands for treats. 

For example, we are working on 'down' right now. I give the command with the signal, and he stares at my hand and sniffs it for food. I give the command once more, he still ignores and sniffs. Then I physically put him in the 'down', and while I'm doing that, he goes nuts sniffing me for treats and immediately gets back up. 

I'm wondering if the treats are just a distraction rather than a training aid. Would I be better off not using them and rewarding him some other way?


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Are you using special treats or just his food? If you're using a treat I can see how it might be distracting.

However, he's not ignoring the commands, he just doesn't know them yet. If he knew them, he would down right away for the food he knows is there. Right now, he doesn't know that "down" means "if I lay down I get the treats!" 
If he's watching your hands, don't use a hand signal yet. Just wait for him to go down, then say the command and give a treat. It sounds like you might have to do your training with him whenever you can, not in a set session. So if you're in the living room and he sits, then reward him. But don't stand there in front of him with treats hidden, just catch him at it.


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## Noah (Apr 17, 2008)

Teach him to ignore the hand. try: http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html 
That advice. Teach him to ignore the food before you try training. And if it really doesn't work, use a toy.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Training is an on going thing.... try some without distractions. What methods are your trainers using? Some dogs jsut don't respond to different techniques well.

Beau would NOT lie down for our first trainer. At home we had him doing it within a few repetitions. 

Another thing to maybe try is to try to what I call 'harness your dog's drives'. Your dog obviously likes food but he needs to be taught what is appropriate behavior around food. Teach him to look to you instead of focus on the treat. 

You also might want to experiment with other types of rewards. See if he does better with simply praise or toy rewards. 

Also give him time to learn the commands.  He is young, right? These things take time.



Noah said:


> Teach him to ignore the hand. try: http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html
> That advice. Teach him to ignore the food before you try training. And if it really doesn't work, use a toy.


That's really a lot of what I was trying to say as far as self control goes. Self control and learning appropriate behaviors even around a dog's favorite things are key.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

To me, i tsounds like he doesn't know down- not that he's too distracted by the food. He just doesn't understand the hand signal. 

I'd back up a step and work on getting down more reliable, either with a lure or however you've trained it. Physical modelling is not real successful because it's hard for the dog to make the transition from "I let her move my legs around and then she gives me a treat' to "I move my legs just like she did a minute ago and I get a treat". Dogs aren't nearly as prone to imitative behavior as us primates, so this doesn't always occur to us.  

This is one of the reasons I like clicker training- it allows us to communicate more easily "This is what I am wanting you to do, and if you do it, there is good stuff on the way' to dogs in a clear way, without so much frustration. And freeshaping is SO much fun. (And you can use it on kids! I shaped my cousin to help clean up the dinner table after family meals at a reunion when he was 7 (he's spoiled rotten at home and doesn't help with ANYTHING) with gummi bears and M&Ms.)

If the treats really are the problem, try using something slightly lower value- use his kibble and let him work for each handful of dinner. Or try throwing a ball, even if he just likes to chase it and not retrieve it. The reward just needs to be something he loves enough to choose it over most anyhting else, just sheer love of humans doesn't really count- food is just the easiest one to control for most folks.


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

This is all really good advice, thank you.

Yes, I realize he is young and that has a lot to do with it. I guess I was wondering if I should even use treats at all because he has been learning commands very well without them, at least so far. Since I seemed to be losing his attention lately, the trainer suggested using some treats to wake him up. But they seem to be more of a distraction than anything. Instead of watching my hands for signals, he is watching them to see if they have food in them. Maybe I should just get rid of the food rewards altogether ... or just use his kibble? He actually seemed to work better for me when there was no reward other than praise.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Try using his food first. Also, can you use a treat pouch instead of holding the treat in your hand? Do the hand signal, then retrieve a treat from behind your back.


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> This is one of the reasons I like clicker training- it allows us to communicate more easily "This is what I am wanting you to do, and if you do it, there is good stuff on the way' to dogs in a clear way, without so much frustration. And freeshaping is SO much fun. (And you can use it on kids! I shaped my cousin to help clean up the dinner table after family meals at a reunion when he was 7 (he's spoiled rotten at home and doesn't help with ANYTHING) with gummi bears and M&Ms.)


I love it. I just might have to try that with my kids. Or my husband. LOL

I am intrigued by clicker training. I've never done it with dogs but I have done it with parrots and the results were amazing. I should look into that. Are there any good books or other resources for clicker training dogs?


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

The way the trainer taught me how to teach Snoopy how to do commands was to hold a treat between my index finger and thumb. Hold it up to his nose and lower it and he should follow it, all the dogs in class followed the handlers hand as they lowered it. Do the same for sit, hold it up to his nose and slowly raise it up and back. He should fall back into a sit.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

My favorite book sfor clicker training are: 

"Pigs Fly: Obedience for Impossible Dogs"
"Clicker Training for Competition Obedience" (yes, I know, it says competition, but it's SO well written that you should buy and read it anyway )
"Click to Calm" (about reactive/aggressive dogs, but has great 'recipes' for building up a dog's ability to focus in distracting situations
"Clicker Training With Your Dog" (Peggy Tilman- kind of a clicker workbook)
and the old "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Two Labs Mom said:


> I love it. I just might have to try that with my kids. Or my husband. LOL
> 
> I am intrigued by clicker training. I've never done it with dogs but I have done it with parrots and the results were amazing. I should look into that. Are there any good books or other resources for clicker training dogs?


Since I got my dog, my relationship with my husband has greatly improved  I believe it's called "operant conditioning" when it's just shaping and not with a clicker. I think a lot of people who start clicker training see how positive reinforcement works so well in other parts of their lives too.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

No such thing to me as an "overly food motivated dog"! LOL

We LOVE these dogs in obedience. Now I was skeptical at first, until I met Moxie, who is a yellow lab. Not quite 5 months yet. I had seen her come in, flying at her mothers fanny pouch that had the treats, and thought; This is going to be interesting...

Moxie is now the best pup in class. It didn't take long for her to figure out what it took to get that treat. Props goes to her mom for quickly figuring out the "silent confident" attitude that was oh so important.

Everyone gets so frusterated when on the first, or second down the dog doesn't drop, that we start man handling them and sweating and seriously thinking about throwing in the towel!

As Dogstar said, I would go back to luring the down.

From the sit to start. Remember the food goes by the dog's nose, right between their front paws. If you move that food forward, they'll get up to go get it, keep that food in nice and close to their front paws, and if his neck is long, push it back into him even farther.

If it's clear he isn't following the lure in the right direction (heading down) that's alright, set up the sit and start again, QUICKLY. Obviously no reward.

Anyways, I think the point of this thread was whether you should use food or not with such a food motivated dog.

I personally would love for my dog's motivation to be so easy! LOL. If you have what that the dog wants, you've got everything in the bucket, just need to fast forward the clock a bit


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

LOL Yeah, after I wrote 'overly', I figured that was probably redundant. 

I think after hearing from all of you, I'm going to look into clicker training, get a treat pouch, and just use his kibble for now. I also think I'm going to try some of your other suggestions rather than the trainer's suggestions too. She told me to put the dog in the down when he wouldn't do it on his own after two commands, then praise and reward. But I hadn't thought about the possibility of that translating to the dog, "I let her move my legs around and I get a treat." LOL That's probably what *I *would think if I were him.

Starting this today - I'll let you know how it goes. Thank you for all the help!


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