# Truth on Science Diet! Read!



## zj0n (Oct 16, 2009)

I signed up for these forums, just so I can spread my word on Science Diet. I had 2 Mini Poodle Dogs, I fed them both Science Diet they're entire LIVES. And im not talking about the DRY science diet. 

One of my doggies lived until 19, and the other 21 years old. They're entire lives they have had so much energy and a very healthy life. They could have lived longer, but I will not go into details. Age catches up when they live that long. 

Now I have a diabetic dog, of which I give him insulin twice a day. Also which I feed him science diet, (Beef and chicken). He is now 14 years old, and as a diabetic dog, he is incredibly healthy with much energy. I will feed my dogs science diet forever, and I can not stress how much I want other people who loves their dogs to feed them science diet as well. They will live a long and happy healthy life.

Anyway, thank you for hearing me out, I have been wanting to spread the word for a long time, because there seems to be a lot of negativity on science diet, of which it bothers me. Thanks again


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I also have an Australian Shepherd who ate Iams for the first 12 years of his life and then switched to Natural choice and then Diamond Naturals, He is now 14.5 years old (Very old for the breed)

My mother had a German Shepherd that lived to be 12 eating Ol' Roy and Iams his whole life (12 is very old for a GSD) '

My Point, you can't base how good a food is on one or two individuals. You need a scientific study to back up your opinion if you want people to believe you.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

zj0n said:


> I signed up for these forums, just so I can spread my word on Science Diet. I had 2 Mini Poodle Dogs, I fed them both Science Diet they're entire LIVES. And im not talking about the DRY science diet.
> 
> One of my doggies lived until 19, and the other 21 years old. They're entire lives they have had so much energy and a very healthy life. They could have lived longer, but I will not go into details. Age catches up when they live that long.
> 
> ...


You'll soon be accused of being a vet or working for a vet


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

zj0n said:


> Anyway, thank you for hearing me out, I have been wanting to spread the word for a long time, because there seems to be a lot of negativity on science diet, of which it bothers me. Thanks again


My problem with SD isn't the fact that it's a crap food. I don't rag on other crap foods nearly as much as SD. My problem with SD is that it is pushed by so many vets and other sources as this amazing food that is so much better than grocery brands when it's nearly identical to them.

It's a grocery brand in a different wrapper, sold by vets for 4x the price. That's what makes me hate it.


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## paux (Jul 26, 2009)

You'll hear this same story with any and every brand of dog food out there. Just because you've had a good run with Science Diet doesn't mean it's a good food, it just means it's worked out for _you_. Until there is a LARGE scale study conducted on the effects of each brand, I'm going to have to go with what I've learned in my pre-vet courses and that's that dog's can't utilize grains and carbohydrates anywhere close to meat proteins. So though you may have some outstanding cases, I would be willing to bet a thousand bucks that dogs fed "higher grade" dog foods have a much greater average lifespan than those fed Science Diet.


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## zj0n (Oct 16, 2009)

trumpetjock said:


> My problem with SD isn't the fact that it's a crap food. I don't rag on other crap foods nearly as much as SD. My problem with SD is that it is pushed by so many vets and other sources as this amazing food that is so much better than grocery brands when it's nearly identical to them.
> 
> It's a grocery brand in a different wrapper, sold by vets for 4x the price. That's what makes me hate it.



The last 3 vets I visited (in florida and georgia) told me to not use science diet. Then they gave me free samples of some other dry dog food. Which is one of the points I wrote this thread. Vets are straying me away from science diet. I havent met a vet yet who says to use science diet.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Anecdotal evidence is absolutely useless on a small scale.

If someone came here and posted about how their three dogs did just fine on the melamine tainted dog food and they didn't understand why everyone was getting so upset about it, do you think people would suddenly be swayed into believing melamine to be safe?

What if I told you my great grandmother lived to over 90 after smoking for more than 75 years of her life? Would that convince you that smoking had no harmful side effects?

Show me the unbiased science. I'm not talking a study done by Iams internally, or a study funded by a group with a vested interest in the outcome. I'm talking about pure science that shows dogs digest grains and plants as well as they digest meat and meat based proteins. Show me the science that backs up the opinion that ground whole grain corn (main ingredient in SD puppy healthy development) breaks down the same way as beef (main ingredient in Evo red meat small bites) and is appropriate as the main portion of a dog's diet. After all, if it's the main ingredient in their food, it's the main staple in their diet. 

As a matter of fact, just for ships and googles, let's look at the first ten ingredients in SD puppy healthy development and compare it to the first ten ingredients in Evo red meat small bites (not appropriate for large breed puppies, but my small breed puppies eat it). 

This is the food that Hill's recommends for a healthy puppy:
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Liver Flavor, Flaxseed, Soybean Oil, Powdered Cellulose, Dried Beet Pulp, Fish Oil, Corn Gluten Meal...

Um, wow...the only meat in the top ten ingredients is Chicken by-product meal and some animal fat (with preservatives).

This is Evo red meat small bites:
Beef, Lamb Meal, Potatoes, Egg, Sunflower Oil, Buffalo, Lamb, Venison, Beef Cartilage, Herring Oil....

I don't get it. I don't get how anyone can look at those two lists and think they offer the same thing to a dog in any way, shape, or form.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

The fact is ALL dogs *seem* to do well 20 years ago, because our only real choices were crap food (dry). Good kool-aid isn't it.

Oh and Mini Poodles are supposed to live long anyways.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Frankly I think there is a lot of astroturf around. Don't see as many suspicious posts for the common brands as the premium ones. But then their marketing is far different. I guarantee whoever has the Wal*Mart account at P&G won't be posting here about what a great food Iams is. Now, the lady that was giving away samples of Natural whatever at the pet food store when I went in to buy Pro Plan? 

I too place a low value on anecdotal evidence. However a large, careful, controlled study comparing different diets available to the general public? Please please, please, if you know of one, let me know. The best I have found is http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2141S#top The large service dog schools have done some testing of different foods, but I haven't see the results, let alone have a link to them. I do know they are feeding common brands including Science Diet. I am sure the Eukanuba ads I have seen lately with the little CCI blurb are costing P&G plenty. However, P&G and Nestle couldn't afford to pay what it would take to get a school to use a food that shortened a dog's working life. I have seen thousands of dogs on Pro Plan, including ones still working at 10-12 years old, and they are doing fine. Convincing me it is the garbage many say all the common brands are is a tough sell. 

I too suspect Science Diet is using the mark up they can offer vets to extract a higher price for about the same thing as Iams or Purina 1. I think P&G may be doing the same thing with the Eukanuba, selling Iams in a different bag at a higher price through a different channel. 

So as I said in another thread, ''The truth is, not much is the truth.'' Who knows what is behind anything posted to the net.


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## Reacher (Jun 3, 2009)

Some dogs do better with lower quality foods. I believe the majority do better with higher quality foods. As other's have said, your opinion is just that, your opinion. There is no science behind your conclusions. I am glad your dogs lived a long time and seemed to do well on SD. I can't help but wonder if they might have lived even longer on a better quality food. That is the type of thing that might be learned by a real study as opposed to your opinion.

I feed my dog ToTW. I believe it to be a good food. Is it better than Evo or any of the other great quality foods on the market, I don't know. In the absence of a true study, I'll have to do my own research and do what I think is best.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

We had a collie make it to almost 14 living on alpo and ol roy her whole life, with no vet care or shot recoreds. She lived. But did she live well? probably not.

I want to give my dog the best chance of a long healthy life. so i feed what a dog should eat.

I dont believe in science diet, purina, pedigree ect.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zj0n said:


> The last 3 vets I visited (in florida and georgia) told me to not use science diet. Then they gave me free samples of some other dry dog food. Which is one of the points I wrote this thread. Vets are straying me away from science diet. I havent met a vet yet who says to use science diet.


I know at least 10 vets that promote SD and sell them in their stores..

I don't think every dog does well on SD. I have 3 friends with dogs on SD. One of them is doing very well, no health problems and very energetic. Of the other 2, one of them is developing severe allergies and has licked patches of fur off his skin so he has bald patches now. The other one is having some ear infection problems.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

It's not the truth on science diet. It's your opinion backed by nothing but your own anecdotal evidence.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Reacher said:


> Some dogs do better with lower quality foods.



Um.. NO


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

MafiaPrincess said:


> It's not the truth on science diet. It's your opinion backed by nothing but your own anecdotal evidence.


I don't think we need to be so mean just because someone else has their own opinion! 

I do know some dogs that can't eat very good food. They continually have diarrhea even when different brands are switched. I've never personally had that problem that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## Stelladog (Aug 18, 2008)

As people have mentioned, a few cases don't provide "truth". There are some 100+ year old people that have smoked for 75+ years, but yet that isn't proof that smoking is heathly. 

I believe nutritionally SD is ok and probably better than what I feed to myself. But the unregulated additives will cause problems for some dogs and in general will result in a less healthly life.

I didn't want to add another negative response to this thread, but the call to "Read!" as if something meaningful was within was just asking for a group kick-down.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> ... The best I have found is http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2141S#top ...


I would love to see that study done with different brands, and I'm not in any way being snarky or sarcastic. It doesn't surprise me that there wasn't much difference in digestibility between various one or that the more expensive ones didn't fare better than the cheaper ones. I mean the high priced ones they tested were Iams, Eukanuba, Hills, Royal Canin etc...all still pretty low quality foods.


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

zj0n said:


> The last 3 vets I visited (in florida and georgia) told me to not use science diet. Then they gave me free samples of some other dry dog food. Which is one of the points I wrote this thread. Vets are straying me away from science diet. I havent met a vet yet who says to use science diet.



Smart vets! I would listen to them.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I don't think we need to be so mean just because someone else has their own opinion!
> 
> I do know some dogs that can't eat very good food. They continually have diarrhea even when different brands are switched. I've never personally had that problem that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


It's not mean - it's protecting everyone from reading the WRONG information!! Tip-toe, tip-toe blah.

These dogs with diarrhea.. How long were they on the good food? My pup had the runs for two days and now craps like a champ!! It takes some dogs 2-4 weeks to adjust their system to real/better food.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

MafiaPrincess said:


> It's not the truth on science diet. It's your opinion backed by nothing but your own anecdotal evidence.


Like 99%+ of what I read on the benefits of premium foods. 

Interesting the comments on some dogs not being able to eat premium foods. Perhaps that explains the first of this quote from my dog guide school manual, ''Stay away from premium foods and special diets like lamb and rice or turkey and barley.'' The end is not due to a problem with lamb. After all, there are a number of schools feeding Iams. It is just a matter of sticking to one protein incase the dog ever does develop allergies. My friend's dog did develop an allergy to chicken, and is not eating Iams. 

Note, the people like us that are raising puppies pay for the food we feed their dogs out of our own pocket. 

Maybe I wasn't clear when I said that study was the best one. It is somewhat disappointing, but the only study I have ever seen that has any comparison of different brands that I can give a link to or have even seen. 

Oh the rationalizations. My father doesn't ''own the school''. It is a large non profit. Over a years time, I am out quite a bit for food, vet care, running around, admissions to places I take the puppies, hotels, etc.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

You win, don't listen to this "healthy" movement that is happening it's all crap.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

zj0n said:


> Anyway, thank you for hearing me out, I have been wanting to spread the word for a long time, because there seems to be a lot of negativity on science diet, of which it bothers me. Thanks again


Thank you very much for going to the trouble of informing us! Now I guess I'll continue to feed my dogs what works best for us.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I don't think we need to be so mean just because someone else has their own opinion!


It's not mean. It simply isn't sugar coated. OP joined to push their truth about SD which isn't the truth at all. Anyone can have opinion. Touting that their opinion is the truth and all others are misinformed needs correction. I was polite not rude. I just simply didn't baby anyone about it. If someone needs that much sugar coating if they want to make a large post on their truth maybe they need a different sandbox to play in.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Stelladog said:


> As people have mentioned, a few cases don't provide "truth". There are some 100+ year old people that have smoked for 75+ years, but yet that isn't proof that smoking is heathly.
> 
> I believe nutritionally SD is ok and probably better than what I feed to myself. But the unregulated additives will cause problems for some dogs and in general will result in a less healthly life.
> 
> I didn't want to add another negative response to this thread, but the call to "Read!" as if something meaningful was within was just asking for a group kick-down.


In the same vein my family has had a lot of dogs, I'm 50 with 3 siblings, All of them lived healthy happy lives eating cheap dog food and lived to quite old. That said they were also all mutts with no special issues.

A lot of modern breeds are not that genetically sound, and have issues ranging from skin to eyes and ears to bones to joints and I can easily see them benefiting from a a premium designed diet for their needs. I'm going through that now.

All my previous dogs have simply been fed supermarket kibble, with meat scraps, egg, bacon fat and other things thrown in at times. My last was a lab mix that was jumping fences and catching frisbees at 12 on that kind of diet, and lived to 16 before her kidneys finally gave out.

My fist pure bred I have now, a GSD, I have allergy issues with, so it's high dollar premium for her. My new dog, another mutt, lucked out she'll be getting the same high dollar food as the Shepherd.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

bully said:


> It's not mean - it's protecting everyone from reading the WRONG information!! Tip-toe, tip-toe blah.
> 
> These dogs with diarrhea.. How long were they on the good food? My pup had the runs for two days and now craps like a champ!! It takes some dogs 2-4 weeks to adjust their system to real/better food.


I had a dog a while back that did better on a lower quality food. I tried her on a higher quality and she was on it for longer than a month and she had horrible horrible gas that did not go away. 
My current dog Sandy is doing much better on a higher quality food.


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## MoosMom (Sep 15, 2009)

My personal opinion on dog food is this," Would I want to eat what the bag says is in it?" I would eat my dogs Wellness kibble over SD kibble any day. But that's just me.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

SandyPuppy said:


> I had a dog a while back that did better on a lower quality food. I tried her on a higher quality and she was on it for longer than a month and she had horrible horrible gas that did not go away.
> My current dog Sandy is doing much better on a higher quality food.


ROFL, that reminds me of Hope on Canidae, not only did she have the runs half the time but the farts were simply godawful and so frequent..

I have no problem with folks feeding any of cheaper foods if their dog does well on them. As I've said all my mutts always have, though I add to the food whatever meat scraps, grease, etc. and raw eggs occasionally.

Evidently such is not the case for all dogs though, as I have discovered with Hope. Allergies are definitely an exception, and infections they cause are a lot more expensive than the pricey top end food.


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

MoosMom said:


> My personal opinion on dog food is this," Would I want to eat what the bag says is in it?" I would eat my dogs Wellness kibble over SD kibble any day. But that's just me.


same here!!


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

MoosMom said:


> My personal opinion on dog food is this," Would I want to eat what the bag says is in it?" I would eat my dogs Wellness kibble over SD kibble any day. But that's just me.


 1. Pet foods may be made from animals in which the presence of prions, which cause encephalopathies such as BSE in cattle and variant CJD in humans, may be likely. According to the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), animal by-products in pet food may include parts obtained from any animals who have died from sickness or disease provided they are rendered in accordance to law. As well, cow brains and spinal cords, not allowed for human consumption due to the possibility of transmission of BSE, are allowed to be included in pet food intended for non-ruminant animals. As prions are not exactly living microorganisms, even cooking cannot prevent the transmission of Bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE).

2. Nutrition in pet food is often substituted for a cheaper alternative. You may have noticed that pet foods are measured for "crude protein" or "crude fibre". Both have nothing to do with protein content and fibre content we have become so accustomed to in human foods. Crude protein is calculated by taking Total nitrogen multiplied by the nitrogen conversion factor = 6.25. Crude protein can therefore be artifically raised by adding non-protein nitrogen. Non-protein nitrogen (or NPN) refers collectively to components such as urea, biuret, and ammonia, which are not proteins but can be converted into proteins by microbia in the ruminant stomach. Due to their lower cost compared to plant and animal proteins their inclusion in a diet can result in economic gain, but at too high levels cause a depression in growth and possible ammonia toxicity (microbes convert NPN to ammonia first before using that to make protein.) Crude fibre is the term given to the indigestible part of foods, defined as the residue left after successive extraction under closely specified conditions, and has nothing to do with dietary fibre. Therefore long-term consumption of dog food may not be enough to meet a human's dietary needs and could possibly cause problems due to inability to use NPN to efficiently create proteins.

Isn't Science Diet (and other cheap brands) looking yummy now


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't this apply to the higher end foods as well? Some companies can guarantee the percentage of meat their food contains (i.e. Nature's Variety, Timberwolf) but that doesn't mean it doesn't include the 'ruminants". I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of Science Diet and the cheap brands but I'm not sure whether some are just buying into the premium language that is on a bag of Orijen or Nature's Variety etc. 

Pretty scary about those prions...sounds like an alien name.


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## bobhester (Oct 12, 2009)

I am not sure how good SD is or was for that matter but my Doberman ate SD for many years and lived to be almost 18. He was healthy the day he was put to sleep except for severe arthritus and could not stand. However, on the other side of the coin our Rottweiler many years later lived to be 16 on Pedigree. But if given a choice (or a SD subsidy) I perfer SD.
Bob
**This is a spam-free site**


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

It comes down to judging a food by how well dogs do eating it or how good the ingredients sound to you. A dog's body has no way of telling whether a molecule of amino acid came from corn, chicken byproducts, or free ranging organic New Zealand lamb.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

flipgirl said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't this apply to the higher end foods as well? Some companies can guarantee the percentage of meat their food contains (i.e. Nature's Variety, Timberwolf) but that doesn't mean it doesn't include the 'ruminants". I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of Science Diet and the cheap brands but I'm not sure whether some are just buying into the premium language that is on a bag of Orijen or Nature's Variety etc.
> 
> Pretty scary about those prions...sounds like an alien name.


Excellent point!

Why are we so quick to accept everything the premium foods tell us? How do you know you can trust them anymore than the other grocery store brand foods? Just because the ingredients read a certain way that doesn't guarantee a certain amount of meat protein, or even that these ingredients are coming from good sources.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Yeah, I read about ''Up and comers'' in Forbes all the time, small business that use clever marketing to achieve high markups and compete with the big boys.


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## lightforce18 (May 6, 2009)

wouldnt touch SD with a 10ft pole


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## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

Labsnothers said:


> It comes down to judging a food by how well dogs do eating it or how good the ingredients sound to you. A dog's body has no way of telling whether a molecule of amino acid came from corn, chicken byproducts, or free ranging organic New Zealand lamb.


I thought plant cells had thicker walls and were less bioavailable to carnivores?


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

zj0n said:


> I signed up for these forums, just so I can spread my word on Science Diet. I had 2 Mini Poodle Dogs, I fed them both Science Diet they're entire LIVES. And im not talking about the DRY science diet.
> 
> One of my doggies lived until 19, and the other 21 years old. They're entire lives they have had so much energy and a very healthy life. They could have lived longer, but I will not go into details. Age catches up when they live that long.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you found something that has worked for you! 
It feels great when you figure out the food that your dog just does amazing on, doesn't it?


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

wolfsnaps said:


> I thought plant cells had thicker walls and were less bioavailable to carnivores?


A little knowledge is dangerous. Properly processed grains are a good source of nutrition for dogs.


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## azh25 (Sep 27, 2009)

Science diet is garbage food. Premium foods contain human grade meat. Low grade foods contain roadkill, dead animals from vets offices. See the USDA website (agriculture) You will change your food.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

You all read this part right?

*BY-PRODUCTS* - premium food has none.




> "animal by-products in pet food may include parts obtained from any animals who have died from sickness or disease provided they are rendered in accordance to law. As well, cow brains and spinal cords, not allowed for human consumption due to the possibility of transmission of BSE, are allowed to be included in pet food intended for non-ruminant animals. As prions are not exactly living microorganisms, even cooking cannot prevent the transmission of Bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE)."


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

So where are all the dogs that got mad cow disease from eating Science Diet?


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> A little knowledge is dangerous. *Properly processed grains are a good source of nutrition for dogs*.


Good as in, minimal, just barely - yes. But it's low on the list of *BEST* nutrition for dogs



Labsnothers said:


> So where are all the dogs that got mad cow disease from eating Science Diet?


Just keep feeding your dog Science Diet.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

bully said:


> You all read this part right?
> 
> *BY-PRODUCTS* - premium food has none.


BSE (mad cow) isn't even a concern in the slightest. You know how many head of cattle have come down with it in the united states? 

Three.

Yeah, 3 cattle in the history of the united states herd. Currently there are 31.7 million head of beef cattle in the United States. So even if we still had those 3 cattle in the herd, that would be .000001% of the herd being infected. Not to mention the fact that there's a really good chance that BSE can't cross the species barrier to canines. It was surprising enough to scientists that it could in humans, while the other variants of prions like scrapies are very species specific.

Why are people even talking about mad cow in dog food?


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

With no facts, fall back on fear mongering.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> A little knowledge is dangerous. Properly processed grains are a good source of nutrition for dogs.


What? That's absurd! Where did you get that idea?


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Wlfdg said:


> What? That's absurd! Where did you get that idea?


Obviously from the Science Diet bag, so it's the truth.

Still waiting for that study that proves grains are best for canines.

Still waiting.......


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2141S#top

Actually there isn't any study proving grains are best. After all, you can formulate an excellent diet using a wide variety of ingredients. Some of the grain free foods may be just as good as Science Diet.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> After all, you can formulate an excellent diet using a wide variety of ingredients. Some of the grain free foods may be just as good as Science Diet.


Correct. 

It just happens that 80% of the ingredient list on the cheaper kibble really isn't that good for dogs when it comes to nutritional value and absorption percentages by their systems. It literally goes right through them.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2141S#top
> 
> Actually there isn't any study proving grains are best. After all, you can formulate an excellent diet using a wide variety of ingredients. Some of the grain free foods may be just as good as Science Diet.


This study is useless in the discussion of quality of science diet versus foods like Orijen, Evo, or a raw diet. This study compares crap and expensive crap. It's also a study done on minks, not dogs. If you're going to say that we can't compare wolf digestion to dog digestion, then I'm going to disqualify the article based on mink digestion.

I want to see the science that says a food full of grains and fillers is as good or better than a grain free food full of quality meat proteins for a dog. I'm open minded about the whole thing, I really am, but no one on the "feed science diet" bandwagon has shown anything even remotely in the science arena to say why someone should choose science diet over Orijen.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

bully said:


> Obviously from the Science Diet bag, so it's the truth.
> 
> Still waiting for that study that proves grains are best for canines.
> 
> Still waiting.......


I hope you aren't holding your breath?
Grains aren't good for us and we're omnivores. Grains aren't even good for cows and they're herbivores. How can anyone believe that grains are good for carnivores?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> Grains aren't good for us and we're omnivores.


Wait! Grains aren't good for us?

That's disappointing news.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

RonE said:


> Wait! Grains aren't good for us?
> 
> That's disappointing news.


They create a net acid load in our bodies without providing any necessary nutrients, not good!


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> Excellent point!
> 
> Why are we so quick to accept everything the premium foods tell us? How do you know you can trust them anymore than the other grocery store brand foods? Just because the ingredients read a certain way that doesn't guarantee a certain amount of meat protein, or even that these ingredients are coming from good sources.



Which is why mine eat all meat, lovingly prepared by me. Everything I buy is inspected for human consumption (not that beef heart is my choice diet) and I inspect every individual piece of meat they eat...if anything looks, feels or smells funny, I toss it. I know EXACTLY what they are eating. The question is: do you?




lightforce18 said:


> wouldnt touch SD with a 10ft pole


ditto


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Northern_Inuit_Luv said:


> Which is why mine eat all meat, lovingly prepared by me. Everything I buy is inspected for human consumption (not that beef heart is my choice diet) and I inspect every individual piece of meat they eat...if anything looks, feels or smells funny, I toss it. I know EXACTLY what they are eating. The question is: do you?


I fed raw as well. There is no better way to know ingredients than to do it all yourself.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

No sense arguing with those with their own facts.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Every time someone says "My dog lived X number of years on [insert cheap dog food brand here]," I always wonder how much longer that dog could have lived on a better dog food.

Perhaps the dogs that "do well" on cheap dog food were genetically programmed to live longer anyways.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

You know that saying "The only thing that 2 dog trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong"

You can say the same thing about people with dog food...


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> No sense arguing with those with their own facts.


Your "fact" is that it is good and healthy to feed a carnivore a corn based food?
Canis Lupus Familiaris is not a omnivore. 
You should watch this movie if you think corn is so good.
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/kingcorn/


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Wlfdg said:


> Your "fact" is that it is good and healthy to feed a carnivore a corn based food?
> Canis Lupus Familiaris is not a omnivore.
> You should watch this movie if you think corn is so good.
> http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/kingcorn/


Huh...that looks really interesting...I'm going to look for it this weekend. Thanks for the heads up!


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Darkmoon said:


> You know that saying "The only thing that 2 dog trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong"
> 
> You can say the same thing about people with dog food...


Good point. I think everybody has said all that is worth saying.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

Don't know if what I am about to say is true but I've read that some of the things included in by-products in pet foods are the euthed dogs and cats that vets get rid of.

I also saw a video about it too. They showed a HUGE pile of deceased animals along with body bags and other trash and then they dumped the whole thing into a huge grinder. Whether it ended up in pet food or not, I have no idea. Just in-case, I stay away from foods with by-products.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Terrie said:


> Don't know if what I am about to say is true but I've read that some of the things included in by-products in pet foods are the euthed dogs and cats that vets get rid of.
> 
> I also saw a video about it too. They showed a HUGE pile of deceased animals along with body bags and other trash and then they dumped the whole thing into a huge grinder. Whether it ended up in pet food or not, I have no idea. Just in-case, I stay away from foods with by-products.


I've heard that too...someone more knowledgable than myself was coaching me through my transition to RAW and said she had seen that...the idea in and of itself is disgusting...I never researched it more because I want to live in happy bliss.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

You two are in luck! The National Renderers Association has a website and a lot of information about what they do and how. They even have their book, "Essential Rendering" online at http://nationalrenderers.org/assets/essential_rendering_book.pdf

You too can read for yourself about how Meat Meal, and Meat & Bone Meal,



> are officially described as the rendered product from mammalian tissues including
> bone, but exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure,
> stomach, and ruminal contents, except such amounts as may occur unavoidably in
> good processing practices (AAFCO, 2006)


Euthanized pets are mammals. However, I can't find a source other than internet scare mongering sites, that says that euthanized pets go in for rendering. Does anyone have a more reliable source that says one way or another?


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

I had some links a ways back where some of the major brands of commercially popular lower quality dog food had been tested for pentobarbitol and which ones had come back positive.. Was maybe studies from 2001 though.. Couldn't get more current stats. If the food contained drugs ever though can't say I'd want to feed it now.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I remember reading somewhere that they debunked the myth that euthanized dogs and cats are being put into cheap dog food. The chemical they found was a fluke, or was present in animals other that dogs and cats I think. I don't remember the article, but I'm sure someone will have it.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Heh, once I get curious about something, I just can't stop looking.

I found this article
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1607483,00.html

which, towards the bottom, talks about investigations from KMOV in St Louis and the LA Times that indicate pets make it into the rendering plants, but the only "copy" of the LA Times article I could find is on a site I'm not confident in. 

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm

I did find, however, the kmov articles regarding this issue. They're "investigative" reports.

http://www.kmov.com/news/AllmanReport/KMOV_allmanreports_011108_petfood1.fe2444.html

http://www.kmov.com/news/AllmanReport/KMOV_allmanreports_011128_petfood3.5603c1b.html

http://www.kmov.com/news/AllmanReport/stories/kmov_news_allman_011214.660dbde.html

It does seem that, at least at this one particular rendering plant, there were euthanized companion animals being rendered at some point in time. There's no reason to believe they weren't going into pet food as general "meat meal". There's no law against it, and very little regulating done. I would categorize this on the "likely happens" side, though I can't find any other information about it...yet.

Edit: Found the FDA article Nargle referenced
http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/CentersOffices/CVM/CVMFOIAElectronicReadingRoom/ucm129131.htm


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> It does seem that, at least at this one particular rendering plant, there were euthanized companion animals being rendered at some point in time. There's no reason to believe they weren't going into pet food as general "meat meal". There's no law against it, and very little regulating done. I would categorize this on the "likely happens" side, though I can't find any other information about it...yet.


this talk is making me sick to my stomach


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

I once asked our local humane society what they do with all the euthanized pets and they listed a few things they do with them and one of them was sending them off to a place that adds them to pet food.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

Wow, I didn't think so many would react to my post.

Here's the video I spoke about. It's quite graphic, however, be warned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

By product meal anyone?


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## brecken (Oct 25, 2009)

the only thing that i dislike about science is that it has fillers in it otherwise its really only good for the vitamins and the minerals. its a really good food i just cant deal with a food that has fillers in it


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

All I can say is wow and disgusting. Whether it's the human or pet food industry, it's still disgusting. I always wonder why people where I work want to keep the utensils used to put the dog and cat food in bowls separate from the human ones. It's not like the utensils are going in the animal's mouths or anything but I guess this would be why.


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## zj0n (Oct 16, 2009)

flipgirl said:


> All I can say is wow and disgusting. Whether it's the human or pet food industry, it's still disgusting. I always wonder why people where I work want to keep the utensils used to put the dog and cat food in bowls separate from the human ones. It's not like the utensils are going in the animal's mouths or anything but I guess this would be why.



(First off I am so happy with all the comments made, even though there are a lot of rude ones, its okay and appreciated)

I am disgusted as well, I honestly did not know what was put in these dog foods. I mean I had an idea, and that there was not so good products in it. But a dogs digestive system is different and may vary. So maybe the not-so-good foods put in the dog food may actually not be so bad?

But may I ask what dog food would be suggested? Especially for a diabetic dog? Would it be ok to switch a food that my doggie has been eating most of his life? And not dry dog food, my dog just stares at me when I ever try and give him dry food. Lol thanks


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Read through the Dog food forum. See how many threads people were feeding a common brand and the dog was doing well on it. Then they switched to something ''better'' and the dog did terrible. Hummmmm, I wonder why the highly experienced team of professionals at the dog guide school put this in their puppy raisers' manual, ''Stay away from premium foods and special diets like lamb and rice or turkey and barley.'' They actually are telling me not to spend my money to buy their dog premium food. As for the lamb and turkey, there is nothing wrong with them. They just want us to stick to chicken to make it easier to work around it if a dog ever does develop allergies. I know a lady that they advised her to switch to a lamb based food after her dog guide developed an allergy to chicken. 

If you dog has done well on Science Diet for years, I think the only


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Labsnothers said:


> Read through the Dog food forum. See how many threads people were feeding a common brand and the dog was doing well on it. Then they switched to something ''better'' and the dog did terrible.


Read through the Dog food forum. See how many threads people were feeding a common brand and the dog was doing terrible on it. Then they switched to something ''better'' and the dog did better. =P

Dogs are individuals. Some dogs have allergies to the common fillers in cheap food, and other don't. Some dogs do well on grain free, and others don't. The POINT is, you need to find the food that works for your dog, whatever it is. Research various dog food ingredients, and the history of the company you're planning to buy from (to see if there is a history of problems or not) and make your _own_ educated decisions.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Hummmmm, I wonder why the highly experienced team of professionals at the dog guide school put this in their puppy raisers' manual, ''Stay away from premium foods and special diets like lamb and rice or turkey and barley.'' They actually are telling me not to spend my money to buy their dog premium food.


 Then they should be shut down for promoting poor health practices to their animals. Dogs are CARNIVORES! Feeding grains to herbivores is a terribly unhealthy practice feeding them to carnivores is *IMMORAL!* Promoting feeding grains to carnivores is *UNJUST AND DISGUSTINGLY IMMORAL! *


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Read through the Dog food forum. See how many threads people were feeding a common brand and the dog was doing well on it. Then they switched to something ''better'' and the dog did terrible. Hummmmm, I wonder why the highly experienced team of professionals at the dog guide school put this in their puppy raisers' manual, ''Stay away from premium foods and special diets like lamb and rice or turkey and barley.


Actually...most people that dogs have no problems with are not going to bother posting because you only post for a suggestion or if you have a problem.

The majority of us have great results with better food but we're not all going to post about it or else you're going to have a few thousand posts a day just telling people how good a food is, which is really pointless unless someone's asking. 

You see a lot of people posting about switching food problems because that's exactly it. The *PROBLEMS* is what makes people post in the forums!

I actually just phoned the local guide dog school out of curiosity of what they feed. They said their dogs are all on Wellness until they leave and the new owners are free to feed whatever they can afford/want to. And here you were telling us that most guide dog schools are AGAINST premium foods and ONLY feed grocery brands.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

There are about a dozen dog guide schools in this country and a number of other schools training various other service dog schools. One way or another, I have learned what a number of them feed. All the larger ones feed one of the common brands.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Um....Guide dog school of Canada.....not large?


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> There are about a dozen dog guide schools in this country and a number of other schools training various other service dog schools. *One way or another, I have learned what a number of them feed. All the larger ones feed one of the common brands.*


 Because it's cost effective or outright donated, *NOT BECAUSE IT'S HEALTHFUL!* Are you for real?


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Labsnothers said:


> There are about a dozen dog guide schools in this country and a number of other schools training various other service dog schools. One way or another, I have learned what a number of them feed. All the larger ones feed one of the common brands.


Because it's cheaper to feed 1000's of dogs what is donated to the school then buy it. It has nothing to do with it being a good food.

I was talking to my shelter the other day and food came up. They feed their dogs Science Diet because it is DONATED and when it isn't they get a special deal on it for being a shelter. The shelter director is begging people to donate non-grain foods for dogs that can not handle science diet and other corn based foods. It's all about the money.

Some dogs do well on grain based foods, but you don't know how well they were doing on it unless you change it and see a difference. If you change it incorrectly, then your going to go "OMG This food is horrible! It gave my dog gas and the runs!" because changing from a low grade food to a high grade food can be hard of a dogs stomach.

When Nubs came home to me he was on Science Diet, and wasn't in good shape. I switched him to Solid Gold and he did HORRIBLE on it. It was just not right for him but the dog I had before him did so great on it, I swore by it. I tried Natural Balance next and he did better on that then anything else. Just recently I switched him to Taste of the Wild HP, and the difference is night and day from Natural Balance to TOTW. Natural Balance is a good quality food, and my dog could have lived a very happy life on it. I'm glad I switched to TOTW because while he was doing well before, he is doing GREAT now.

You have to do your own research and not allow one group to say "This is the best food" because *NO ONE FOOD IS THE "BEST"*. One dog will do ok on S/D another will do horrid on it. Both dogs may thrive on Wellness and then one might do FANTASTIC on TOTW and the other look like hell. 

This is why it is important to try different foods. Whats good for the goose, may not be good for the gander.

The one thing that I do have to say though, Corn no matter what is not good for your dog's health. They may get a small amount of nutrition out of it, but Corn has been the main product recalled on the last few major food recall. This is why I switched away from Corn to begin with. It wasn't until later I found out more about dog food did I start promoting non-corn based foods.


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## zuesmypet (Oct 23, 2009)

Hi i would like to share a story with you. Last summes my mix breed boxer got really sick so my husband called the vet she asked him what kind of dog food we were feeding him and my husband tould her ole roy dog and she tould him not to feed it to our dogs no more. It about killed my boxer mix he had watery poo with blood he could not hold it the vet gave him some meds and it made him better. I gave my dog the meds for a month


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I pay for the food I feed the puppies we foster out of my own pocket. The people with working dogs also pay for their food out of their own pocket. Over a lifetime, the food is a very small portion of the expense of a service dog.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I pay for the food I feed the puppies we foster out of my own pocket. The people with working dogs also pay for their food out of their own pocket. Over a lifetime, the food is a very small portion of the expense of a service dog.


That's no excuse for providing poor nutrition.
Have you read this yet? 
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/63972-corn-poison-same-thing.html


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I have read all the lies time after time.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Labsnothers said:


> I have read all the lies time after time.


You read your own posts! A-may-zing.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I have read all the lies time after time.


Then you can't tell the difference between fact and fallacy. You are clueless .

These are scientific and historical facts.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Wlfdg said:


> Then they should be shut down for promoting poor health practices to their animals. Dogs are CARNIVORES! Feeding grains to herbivores is a terribly unhealthy practice feeding them to carnivores is *IMMORAL!* Promoting feeding grains to carnivores is *UNJUST AND DISGUSTINGLY IMMORAL! *


I think somebody just jumped a shark...


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> I think somebody just jumped a shark...


You think that I "jumped a shark" because I feel strongly against promoting a lifetime of poor health and potential disease?


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Wlfdg said:


> You think that I "jumped a shark" because I feel strongly against promoting a lifetime of poor health and potential disease?


Of course not. It's admirable. But berating people about it and calling their actions *UNJUST AND DISGUSTINGLY IMMORAL *is a little over the top, DYT? You posted some interesting info (++++ credibility - lemee think about that, maybe I should look into this some more) and then let loose with some whoop-a** when they keep resisting your argument. It was just a little Fonzie-esque, DYT? JMO.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm sorry guys but corn is definitely the best food for dogs. I was cooking dinner the other night and accidentally dropped a raw turkey leg and a corn-on-the-cob onto the floor. And my dog went straight for the corn, didn't even think about it. Oh and after eating the whole thing, her coat was all shiny and her poop was like diamonds and she even helped me study for my graph theory test.

P.S. I'm j/k.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> Of course not. It's admirable. But berating people about it and calling their actions *UNJUST AND DISGUSTINGLY IMMORAL *is a little over the top, DYT? You posted some interesting info (++++ credibility - lemee think about that, maybe I should look into this some more) and then let loose with some whoop-a** when they keep resisting your argument. It was just a little Fonzie-esque, DYT? JMO.


If it was something that happened on a small scale I would agree with you. But it's not. It's huge. It leads to a poor quality of life for countless numbers of animals. These animals are depended on by people who need them for their well being. What if, these service animals were fed a truly high quality diet? Superior nutrition leads to superior performance no matter the task. Sure you can say that they are still getting the job done, at status quo.

What if foods like EVO for example were the norm and not the exception?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Wlfdg said:


> What if foods like EVO for example were the norm and not the exception?


Do you see the kind of cheap junk food humans feed THEMSELVES? There will always be people buying cheap dog food, as well. People vote with their wallets, and a lot of votes are for cheap food for themselves AND their dogs.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Wlfdg said:


> If it was something that happened on a small scale I would agree with you. But it's not. It's huge. It leads to a poor quality of life for countless numbers of animals. These animals are depended on by people who need them for their well being. What if, these service animals were fed a truly high quality diet? Superior nutrition leads to superior performance no matter the task. Sure you can say that they are still getting the job done, at status quo.
> 
> What if foods like EVO for example were the norm and not the exception?


So I guess you think all the humane societies and SPCAs that feed Hills are unjust and immoral? The fact that they take in unwanted, lost, stray, unhealthy animals and bring them back to health and try to find them homes is unjust and immoral because they get donated food that's crap? I think if you're going to judge one's immorality and justness, you may want to reconsider your position. Sure, it would be great if we, humans and dogs were all healthy and ate the way we should but we don't. I spend way more money on my pets' food than I do on mine - is that immoral or unjust? Some people do the best they can - if there are those who have little money but are willing to give an animal a good home full of love and attention yet can't afford super premium food - well all the power to them! 

I applaud your support of feeding healthy food to your animals but maybe calling people unjust and immoral is a little harsh.


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

I think the practice of marketing unhealthy food is unjust and immoral on all levels.
I think that it is an unacceptable practice to feed foods that can do more harm than good in the long run. I think it should be unacceptable for companies like Hill's to produce foods that contain ingredients like corn. Hill's provides foods for shelter's as a business venture. It's marketing! Most dogs don't get adopted to homes that feed high quality diets. They get whatever is on sale. Most people thinks it's o.k. or they make the excuse that they can't afford better. BS! I do without a lot to feed my dogs the way I do. 
While on the subject I think it should be illegal to feed grains to stock animals for the damage it does to unwary or unconcerned consumers.
I also believe companies like McDonald's should be shut down.
We in the U.S. are about to have national healthcare. Obesity is the worst disease we face. Grains are directly responsible for that problem and now are tax dollars are going to pay for that. I think the tobacco companies should also be shut down. 
Otherwise, if you make unhealthy choices with your life you should be denied healthcare.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Wlfdg said:


> I think the practice of marketing unhealthy food is unjust and immoral on all levels.
> I think that it is an unacceptable practice to feed foods that can do more harm than good in the long run. I think it should be unacceptable for companies like Hill's to produce foods that contain ingredients like corn. Hill's provides foods for shelter's as a business venture. It's marketing! Most dogs don't get adopted to homes that feed high quality diets. They get whatever is on sale. Most people thinks it's o.k. or they make the excuse that they can't afford better. BS! I do without a lot to feed my dogs the way I do.
> While on the subject I think it should be illegal to feed grains to stock animals for the damage it does to unwary or unconcerned consumers.
> I also believe companies like McDonald's should be shut down.
> ...


Wow this is over the top!!....so if I or my child want to go for a Sunday treat and have a ice cream cone or a slice of birthday cake...we should have to suffer with no health care?


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

pugmom said:


> Wow this is over the top!!....so if I or my child want to go for a Sunday treat and have a ice cream cone or a slice of birthday cake...we should have to suffer with no health care?


Right! It's only "over the top" because of current acceptable beliefs. Ice cream and cake are considered treats. That's a problem right there. Blueberries should be an acceptable treat. 
Sorry, I know I seem extreme but the problem of obesity and poor health is even more extreme. It's disgusting!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Wlfdg said:


> Right! It's only "over the top" because of current acceptable beliefs. Ice cream and cake are considered treats. That's a problem right there. Blueberries should be an acceptable treat.
> Sorry, I know I seem extreme but the problem of obesity and poor health is even more extreme. It's disgusting!


No a treat is something you get every once in a while...blueberries are something we would eat everyday 

who are you to decided what is acceptable and what is not?....Do I still get health care if I drink whole milk instead of skim?

what if i skydive...that can be a unhealthy choice that could result in death?...

what if I eat white bread in stead of wholewheat????

No it dosen't seem extreme ......its out of your mind bananas 

I work out 5 days a week...I eat a healthy as I can .....and if I want to have a sunday on Sunday because I love they way they taste , I now have to suffer because you don't think I made a good choice????


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Wlfdg said:


> I think the practice of marketing unhealthy food is unjust and immoral on all levels.
> I think that it is an unacceptable practice to feed foods that can do more harm than good in the long run. I think it should be unacceptable for companies like Hill's to produce foods that contain ingredients like corn. Hill's provides foods for shelter's as a business venture. It's marketing! Most dogs don't get adopted to homes that feed high quality diets. They get whatever is on sale. Most people thinks it's o.k. or they make the excuse that they can't afford better. BS! I do without a lot to feed my dogs the way I do.
> While on the subject I think it should be illegal to feed grains to stock animals for the damage it does to unwary or unconcerned consumers.
> I also believe companies like McDonald's should be shut down.
> ...


I like people who speak the truth. This must be painful to read for some.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

bully said:


> I like people who speak the truth. This must be painful to read for some.


Yeah it is pretty painful to read that someone thinks I should have been denied the life savings surgery and following treatment for the tumor on my oveary because I enjoy an occasional ice cream cone and a trip to IHOP..................silly me


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

pugmom said:


> Yeah it is pretty painful to read that someone thinks I should have been denied the life savings surgery and following treatment for the tumor on my oveary because I enjoy an occasional ice cream cone and a trip to IHOP..................silly me


Ouch!! No I said: 
"I like people who speak the truth. This must be painful to read for some"

Define "occasional", then I'll respond.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I think it is unjust and immoral to insult others with statements that you have nothing but your world view to back up.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I think it is unjust and immoral to insult others with statements that you have nothing but your world view to back up.


You just keep feeding your dog Science Diet and let the informed have an informed discussion.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

bully said:


> Ouch!! No I said:
> "I like people who speak the truth. This must be painful to read for some"
> 
> Define "occasional", then I'll respond.



Occasional: adjective
1. occurring or appearing at irregular or infrequent intervals; occurring now and then: an occasional headache.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I think it is unjust and immoral to insult others with statements that you have nothing but your world view to back up.


You are the king of:

*"you have nothing but your world view to back up*"



pugmom said:


> Occasional: adjective
> 1. occurring or appearing at irregular or infrequent intervals; occurring now and then: an occasional headache.


It's OK spit it out - call it free nutritional therapy!!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

bully said:


> You are the king of:
> 
> *"you have nothing but your world view to back up*"
> 
> ...


Spit what out?


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

pugmom said:


> Spit what out?


"I enjoy an *occasional* ice cream cone and a trip to IHOP"

How often is often - I didn't need the Wiki run around. Denial is the first step. We have work to do.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

trumpetjock said:


> My problem with SD isn't the fact that it's a crap food. I don't rag on other crap foods nearly as much as SD. My problem with SD is that it is pushed by so many vets and other sources as this amazing food that is so much better than grocery brands when it's nearly identical to them.
> 
> It's a grocery brand in a different wrapper, sold by vets for 4x the price. That's what makes me hate it.


I agree! This, exactly.

I wouldn't feed that stuff to my dogs if you paid me.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Pugmom don't let one persons opinion that is defiantly in the minority ruin your day. It is after all still very early in the morning.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

bully said:


> "I enjoy an *occasional* ice cream cone and a trip to IHOP"
> 
> How often is often - I didn't need the Wiki run around. Denial is the first step. We have work to do.


You asked to define Occasionally.....that is what you got

You want to know how often I get Ice cream or go to IHOP? then ask!....try to refrain from being rude 

2-3 x per month to 0x per month


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

pugmom said:


> You asked to define Occasionally.....that is what you got
> 
> You want to know how often I get Ice cream or go to IHOP? then ask!....try to refrain from being rude
> 
> 2-3 x per month to 0x per month


Jesus.. I did ask "Define Occasionally" 

I'm not arguing over 2 ice-cream cones gave you cancer - you are. I'm sorry to hear you went through that ordeal. I've lost 3 people in the family to it.

The truth to this matter is you are what you eat, drink, and breathe. You smoke and eat McDonald's, it is arguable that others shouldn't have to pay your doctors bills.

You feed your dog cheap food - expect "more" health issues


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

bully said:


> Jesus.. I did ask "Define Occasionally"
> 
> I'm not arguing over 2 ice-cream cones gave you cancer - you are. I'm sorry to hear you went through that ordeal. I've lost 3 people in the family to it.
> 
> The truth to this matter is you are what you eat, drink, and breathe. You smoke and eat McDonald's, it is arguable that others shouldn't have to pay your doctors bills.


everything is arguable.....if you skydive, ski, snowboard, roller blade, play football and injure yourself should I have to pay your doctor bills?

I'm not auguring over whether or not ice cream gave me cancer but whether or not I deserve to not have health care to cover the treatment of it because I made a choice that someone else did not agree with

Dobmniac-thank you....but don't worry one person who likes to be rude to strangers on the internet for no other reason then their own peronsal pleasure (I guess?) isn't going to ruin my day LOL


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

bully said:


> The truth to this matter is you are what you eat, drink, and breathe. You smoke and eat McDonald's, it is arguable that others shouldn't have to pay your doctors bills.


_And others shouldn't have to pay for food and shelter for housing for prisononers...

Or pay for the car of someone that tried to commit suicide...

Or pay for the public school system if they send their children to private school....

Or pay for housing for the homeless that honestly don't want to work..._

Do we really won't to go down this road? Because it won't end well for anyone concerned.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Wlfdg said:


> ...Otherwise, if you make unhealthy choices with your life you should be denied healthcare.


Please do define for me what choices would warrant a denial in health care, and who would get to draw up those guidelines and make the decision. I guarantee you there is at least one choice you make or have made in your life that someone else would deem unhealthy. Since there is very little consensus when it comes to various aspects of health, you're going to be very hard pressed to find an actual definition of a "healthy lifestyle" that everyone agrees with.

I'm of the opinion that, regardless of what I think of you or your choices, every person should have access to quality health care, period. Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you must (though I'm not), but it sickens me that someone would sentence a fellow human to suffer and/or die because of lifestyle choices they don't agree with.


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## dleggs15 (Mar 4, 2008)

Being there is so many people agaisnt SD I am one that uses the K/D brand for my dog with kidney problems! I have not had any problems with her on it so far and have used it for 3 years now. I also have a very sensitive bulldog. Before using the K/D she had problems with her kidneys after using the K/D we have not had any kidney problems and I get her levels checked about every 4-6 months and always come back normal! so yes it might not be the choice for a lot of people but for some it could work for!


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

pugmom said:


> everything is arguable.....if you skydive, ski, snowboard, roller blade, play football and injure yourself should I have to pay your doctor bills?
> 
> I'm not auguring over whether or not ice cream gave me cancer but whether or not I deserve to not have health care to cover the treatment of it because I made a choice that someone else did not agree with
> 
> Dobmniac-thank you....but don't worry one person who likes to be rude to strangers on the internet for no other reason then their own peronsal pleasure (I guess?) isn't going to ruin my day LOL


No.

Choices have consequences. If I pay for your operation - You'll eat what I say 

Just keeping it real.


Let's get back to the poor dogs who have no choice in what they eat so stop feeding them CHEAP CRAP


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## Wlfdg (Oct 18, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> Please do define for me what choices would warrant a denial in health care, and who would get to draw up those guidelines and make the decision. I guarantee you there is at least one choice you make or have made in your life that someone else would deem unhealthy. Since there is very little consensus when it comes to various aspects of health, you're going to be very hard pressed to find an actual definition of a "healthy lifestyle" that everyone agrees with.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that, regardless of what I think of you or your choices, every person should have access to quality health care, period. Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you must (though I'm not), but it sickens me that someone would sentence a fellow human to suffer and/or die because of lifestyle choices they don't agree with.


I laid it already. If you make poor choices in food consumed, smoking, drinking, drugs, etc....
Next, I do not believe in health care, period. The world is vastly over populated and the fear of death motivates people to selfishly seek any avenue possible to further extend their lives. It enables poor health choices. As you are probably thinking it, I have lost people very close to me. LOTS OF THEM! I have faced the reality of my own death and am quite shocked that I survived. Medical intervention is not what kept me alive but good judgment. I do take part in activities that are easily deemed unhealthy. I backcountry ski for a living. I jump off cliffs. I mountain bike. I hunt in grizzly country. I used to be a professional fighter. I have no desire to have anyone pay to bail me out of a bad situation or save my life should medical intervention be deemed necessary. I would accept the consequences of my choices and die! 
I do not eat stockyard meat, factory farmed vegetables or fruit, grains, tubers, legumes or consume dairy. I don't drink, smoke or do drugs. I exercise everyday at the most intense level possible. 

Pugmom, Thanks for calling me crazy! I never said I could deny you health care. I can't deny you anything. I don't have that power.

Blueberries are a treat as they should be a seasonally available berry. But, do to technology they aren't.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> I'm of the opinion that, regardless of what I think of you or your choices, every person should have access to quality health care, period. Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you must (though I'm not), but it sickens me that someone would sentence a fellow human to suffer and/or die because of lifestyle choices they don't agree with.


I agree. But couldn't there be a points system or something saying you pay more or less depending on your "lifestyle choices" ?? 

I eat crappy food - I pay 30% more. Wouldn't that work? Too bad dogs are the victim of irresponsible dog owners who don't "care" what they feed.



Wlfdg said:


> Next, I do not believe in health care, period. The world is vastly over populated and the fear of death motivates people to selfishly seek any avenue possible to further extend their lives. It enables poor health choices.


Amen. We are on a path to destroy the earth and all the living on it, like a disease. Just imagine if we didn't exist how nice this place would be.

Face it - This thread was answered on the first page - S.D. is bad. Now it's getting interesting 


So take health into your own hands, or leach of a broken system after you "up size" your combo.

LOL


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

wow...this thread is starting to go way off topic....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Never has the word bully been more apropos....

Sounds to me like a Health Hitler...

I do think that Science Diet has turned into complete crap. That said, I do still see a need for the prescription formulas, because as much as they suck, some dogs can't eat everything else.

Not every dog can tolerate EVO that can tolerate Natural Balance that can tolerate TOTW, that can tolerate.....

Dogs are not made equally.

I wouldn't disagree that dogs are carnivores, but they are certainly not obligate carnivores, like cats.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Xeph said:


> but they are certainly not obligate carnivores, like cats.


Yet Science Diet think cats are the same as dogs.

There cat food:

Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose (10.5% source of fiber), Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Animal Fat


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

And I think their cat food is crap too 

My point was if a dog went for awhile without meat/proper protein sources, they'd get very very sick no doubt, but they wouldn't keel over dead like a cat.

Many that try and feed their cats like vegetarians or vegans (Note...this is mostly the crazies) don't realize that their cat will die from lack of proper protein.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

bully said:


> No.
> 
> Choices have consequences. If I pay for your operation - You'll eat what I say
> 
> ...


Just keeping it real too. I'm paying for the operation too! I think she can eat whatever she wants. Now what?


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## Linda C (Jan 1, 2008)

I think most people who feed "crap" food do so because they don't know any better. I remember the first time reading what was actually in dog food..at first I thought it had to be a lie. When I had to have a dog put down humanely I chose "mass burial" because I was so ignorant I didn't want it to be alone. OMG how naive is that?


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Linda C said:


> . When I had to have a dog put down humanely I chose "mass burial" because I was so ignorant I didn't want it to be alone. OMG how naive is that?


Wow that's pretty sad...I know the exact spot where all my dogs, cats,fish, and guinea pigs are buried. It gives me great peace of mind to be able to drive out and see them on occasion.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Linda C said:


> I think most people who feed "crap" food do so because they don't know any better. I remember the first time reading what was actually in dog food..at first I thought it had to be a lie. When I had to have a dog put down humanely I chose "mass burial" because I was so ignorant I didn't want it to be alone. OMG how naive is that?


What an insult. I have read all that stuff. I just don't respond to emotional button pushing. I use the part of my body above my neck to choose the dog food.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> What an insult. I have read all that stuff. I just don't respond to emotional button pushing. I use the part of my body above my neck to choose the dog food.


She said "most". Which is true. Most people who feed that havn't done research on dog food at all (most people don't know that they even should do research) and just buy what they see in the commercials. Theres that marketing thing again.


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## Linda C (Jan 1, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> She said "most". Which is true. Most people who feed that have done research on dog food at all and just buy what they see in the commercials. Theres that marketing thing again.


Thank you Sandypuppy. I didn't mean to insult anyone, I was using myself as an example of buying into "the marketing thing". Before having a computer and finding out ALL the truths..I was completely overwhelmed and in shock.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Well if you're using your brain to choose dog food, tell me (and this isn't sarcasm) why you'd choose one with low quality ingredients, fillers, and potentially harmful chemicals in it when there are so many better options for a similar price?


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Because they have a very substantial history of producing healthy dogs.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Linda C said:


> Thank you Sandypuppy. I didn't mean to insult anyone, I was using myself as an example of buying into "the marketing thing". Before having a computer and finding out ALL the truths..I was completely overwhelmed and in shock.


Yeah before the internet and animal forums were invented I was feeding Eukanuba and thought it was THE best.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> And I think their cat food is crap too
> 
> My point was if a dog went for awhile without meat/proper protein sources, they'd get very very sick no doubt, but they wouldn't keel over dead like a cat.
> 
> Many that try and feed their cats like vegetarians or vegans (Note...this is mostly the crazies) don't realize that their cat will die from lack of proper protein.


Or go blind before it gets that sick.


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## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Because they have a very substantial history of producing healthy dogs.


 *snort* 
___________________________________________________________________


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

I saw a tv ad for blue buffalo yesterday. Its the first one I've ever seen.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Good to see a company that produces food that is not crap is actually advertising!


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