# Confirmation questions



## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

I know it's looking ahead, but I'm interested in confirmation showing with Frodo. I had a few questions...

1. How can you find people who know what the breed standard is and if your dog "measures up" enough to be competitive. I looked up our local ESS club and it looks as active as a dead fish. I'm going to attend the next meeting of our local kennel club....our breeder is too far away to really work with us.

2. What age do you start training. I know there are puppy class competitions. Our local club has a drop in training class that my son (who is interested in junior handling) and I are going to go to when the vaccines are done....but what age is reasonable.

3. Any good books on the subject?


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

Anyone?
Well, the ESS club isn't as dead as I thought...the president has been really helpful and invited me and Frodo to their agility club meet and the club meeting this Fri and Sat. She said someone might be able to look over Frodo and give me an honest appraisal. In the breed, there is a huge split between field and show dog's, to where a field bred dog really won't win in confirmation. To complicate things, Frodo has heavy European bloodlines, which has a different "show" look then the American bloodlines. My breeder is from Europe and keeps a lot of practices (his tail isn't docked, for example.)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

1. Your breeder will probably be the best place to go to find out if your dog is conformationally a good example of the breed. Was Frodo bench bred lines? Were his parents shown? Your breeder should have known at 8 weeks if he would be a good show prospect (though dogs can always grow up a bit different than expected, you can tell a lot at 8 weeks). Was he sold on limited registration or full registration? Only dogs on full registration are allowed to compete in AKC. In ESS, if his breeder doesn't show and he was not picked as a show prospect at 8 weeks, it's unlike he will be a top winning dog, unfortunately. There is a very specific style favored by ESS in the show ring.

2. Training can start right away! Many local training places will have show handling classes and this is the best place to start. I didn't put my dog in handling classes until he was maybe 7 months old, but many people start earlier. For a newbie it's going to be hard to work with a very small wiggly puppy, so maybe 4-6 months would be a good option. You can take regular puppy and obedience classes first to get the hang of training in general. Not that you can't take a very young puppy, but it might be an exercise in frustration getting him to stand still when you are still learning the technique.

3. Here are a couple books I've enjoyed:
http://www.amazon.com/Show-Me-Dog-S...F8&qid=1429125651&sr=1-1&keywords=dog+showing
http://www.amazon.com/Tricks-Trade-...d_sim_b_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=1QNMDMEC80J84QWBC7GR


If he is Euro conformation lines then it's unlikely he will win any AKC shows. Bench bred ESS in the US, even more than some other breeds, tend to have a very specific style about them and anything not in that style is probably not going to do well. It depends on the dog though - he may look enough like them to fit in. It's hard to tell without seeing a picture.

Even if you don't show him, you can attend handling classes with any dog to learn how it works and see if you would be interested with the next dog. And there are tons of sports out there that don't require your dog to have a specific look or breeding. As a fellow spaniel owner I would recommend nosework as a fun sport that spaniels are really good at. Obedience, rally, and agility are all popular and easy to find classes. I also believe that junior handling is only about the handler, so the dog itself shouldn't matter that much, though most juniors are showing dogs who are champions or are working towards championships.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

That's really disappointing. It's my fault, I should have done more research. I just thought a dog from a reputable breeder that was sold on full registration, and had what looked to be good bloodlines, had a chance. It never occured to me to check if there was a big divide between the two.
Here's our breeder's website: http://englishspringer-vom-king-charles.com/index.html . His site was Zoltan and his dam was Anika. Dad was shown quite a bit, mom was not. His breeder is from Europe. She doesn't show, I believe. She's done field and obedience. Until I get tech savvy enough to figure how to post pics from my phone he looks a lot like Ice Cream Mix, but more finely muzzled.
I didn't realize how much this mattered to me until now. I'm still going to meet with that breeder and go to the club meeting, but I'm depressed. I paid this much for a purebred dog because I wanted to show. I've wanted this for so long. I told her I was interested in showing...although I think I did emphasize performance events a little. My husband is interested in field work with him...I couldn't care less. It's my understanding he could have done rally, obedience, or agility as a mixed breed. I wasted money on an AKC purebred if he can't show. Of course, in this area I could have never adopted a puppy (shelters won't adopt puppies at all to families with younger (6 and under) children even when non pit-bull puppies come in, which is once in a blue moon). I know I have health guarantees, I've met his parents, I have a better idea of what he'll be like as an adult, he seems a good tempered, intelligent, quick to learn dog...but at this moment.....I really wish I had known. I researched the breed! I went to a show! How did I miss this? I figured a different look would help, not hurt. Didn't ask my breeder I don't think. It's not her fault.


 I can't think about "the next dog". I have this dog, now, and we're full out in puppy land right now.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Personally I think her dogs look lovely! I'm a big fan of the euro show like ess. But yeah, unfortunately ess tend to be kind of all one style in the U.S., and they are a fairly competitive breed to show vs many others. There's no harm in trying! There are judges who will reward a dog with great structure and movement over dogs who just fit the style, at least in the classes. 

Where approximately do you live? I'm in NY and another member shoes ESS in the Virginia area so we could help if you are on the east coast. 

Showing isn't everything! You can still do all of the handling classes. Check out UKC and 4-H for your son too. And your son may still be able to do juniors just fine with him. Like I said, it looks like she has nice dogs with nice structure. Three aren't what judges usually see in the AKC ring but that doesn't mean you son can't show him.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Personally I think her dogs look lovely! I'm a big fan of the euro show like ess. But yeah, unfortunately ess tend to be kind of all one style in the U.S., and they are a fairly competitive breed to show vs many others. There's no harm in trying! There are judges who will reward a dog with great structure and movement over dogs who just fit the style, at least in the classes.
> 
> Where approximately do you live? I'm in NY and another member shoes ESS in the Virginia area so we could help if you are on the east coast.
> 
> Showing isn't everything! You can still do all of the handling classes. Check out UKC and 4-H for your son too. And your son may still be able to do juniors just fine with him. Like I said, it looks like she has nice dogs with nice structure. Three aren't what judges usually see in the AKC ring but that doesn't mean you son can't show him.


Thank you! I liked the look of her dogs too, and the variations I had never seen on an ESS (the liver/white/tan for instance) and I was impressed with her commitment to the breed and its health and diversity. I should have picked up on it when I was at the show....they all looked much more alike....or rather, I did pick up on it but didn't realize the differences were disqualifying factors- I thought the standard was the standard, you know? 
I live in Oregon. ESS dogs are a little more rare here. I live in one of the largest cities and my breeder is 2 1/2 hours away. Which is funny because gun dog sports are big. It was a hard decision for me between an ESS and a Brittany, (and if I had known about the Welsh it would've been a 3-way pull)  but something about the ESS won out. 
I just didn't realize it meant so much to me, and I also feel like I wasted my family's money by buying a purebred puppy because I've always wanted one, in part, to show, when a mixed breed could have got a PAL and competed (although [email protected] know there's a LOT to be said for getting a puppy from a reputable breeder, and I'm really beginning to bond with and love the little guy. Even DH likes him...and he is NOT into dogs.)
I'm still going to let the ESS club president and member examine him. They know about competition here, they'll have some input. They said European imports are becoming more common and it throws many judges.
BTW, I keep meaning to tell you how lovely and elegant Watson is. 
He looks like a gentleman.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I am the one that shows ESS in VA, btw. There are some ESS showing in my area that are fairly similar to what that breeder has. They are docked though I believe. 

I do not think you should give up on him, before you have even started. Let the breeders go over him, you never know he may be just fine. Also with junior showmanship it does not matter, it is all about the handler. While most older juniors do use seasoned champions (that is because they are competiting for invites to westminster, and trying to gain Master status, and rankings), the younger ones usually use just what they have. Juniors at the higher levels is very competitive. 

The mixed breed would get a canine partners number btw, and he/she would only be able to compete in performance events not conformation. 

Tan points every once in a while show up in the show ring. There was a champion not too long ago that had tan point
Through me for a loop though, cause I could have sworn I had seen him before without tan points. They were faint so I could of missed them, or they dyed him. He is not showing anymore.

Not gonna lie. it will more likely be harder to finish him, and he may never. If you do decide to show him, I would make a list down of the judges that gave him a shot. By that I mean judges who either put him up for the points, gave him reserve, or put him up for ribbons (1~4) over more "traditional" competition.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I am the one that shows ESS in VA, btw. There are some ESS showing in my area that are fairly similar to what that breeder has. They are docked though I believe.
> 
> I do not think you should give up on him, before you have even started. Let the breeders go over him, you never know he may be just fine. Also with junior showmanship it does not matter, it is all about the handler. While most older juniors do use seasoned champions (that is because they are competiting for invites to westminster, and trying to gain Master status, and rankings), the younger ones usually use just what they have. Juniors at the higher levels is very competitive.
> 
> ...


Ok, here's my attempt at attaching a picture. His eyes are deeper green then the picture shows. The tooth isn't normally visible either, I caught him mid chew.











The breeder thought he'd probably resemble his sire the most as he grew. I think he has much more white then that. Most of his ticking is on his legs and muzzle. I've jokingly thought of "cream carmel square" as a registration name. 


I know a mixed would only be able to compete in performance events. But if his appearance "disqualifies" him, then I'm in the same situation....although I think only purebred sporting dogs can do field trials. Would I have bought him had I known? Possibly, maybe even probably. I had been thinking more of obedience and agility at the time...and temperament was primary with children ranging from 3-13. But maybe not. I wish I had known, and it's my own fault. I just never thought to check on such a thing. I read the breed standard, her dogs (as much as I can tell-don't ask me to verify for certain what pasterns are for instance  ) seemed to meeting it, I checked the other stuff.

Thank you both for the encouragement. I'm looking forward to the meeting tomorrow no matter what; it will be nice to meet other ESS owners and hear in detail why yes or no.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

The pasterns are the spot on the front legs below their wrists but above their feet.


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

I know NOTHING about conformation, but I don't think you should feel at all disappointed. I've never been crazy about ESS's, but I think your breeder's dogs are GORGEOUS. But I almost always prefer European lines of any breed compared to US lines. 

From my extremely limited knowledge of conformation showing, it sounds like handling can be very difficult. If I were you, I'd use your current dog to gain experience in the show ring. Even if he may not be the typical type I imagine there's still a great ton you can learn from showing him. Then if you choose to get another ESS from US lines in the future you'll already have quite a bit of handling under your belt. It may take a bit of creativity on your part to get points on him, but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that! 

And there are tons of other sports to show in too, if you're interested in that. A foundation in conformation would be great to move him into other sports, as well as making him a gorgeous and well behaved family pet.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> The pasterns are the spot on the front legs below their wrists but above their feet.


Ok, thought so.  I need to print up a dog anatomy outline.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

ConFORMation...not confirmation. Your dog probably isn't Catholic! Sorry...pet peeve of mine.

Please don't be too disappointed in your dog. We don't always get the dog we want, but we do usually get the dog we need.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

spotted nikes said:


> ConFORMation...not confirmation. Your dog probably isn't Catholic! Sorry...pet peeve of mine.
> 
> Please don't be too disappointed in your dog. We don't always get the dog we want, but we do usually get the dog we need.



Yep, Catholic family, Catholic dog.  That being said, I try to catch autospell, but...yeah.


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