# Why, with + training, is it always your fault?



## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

I'd actually quit training a few months because of this. I did a lot right, but didn't do everything perfect, yet my dog is still reactive, and I'm having a heck of a time with jumping on people. My mental health can't handle an all-my-fault method. 
My husband, who doesn't go for that, has got the dog to stop jumping, but it doesn't generalize. He doesn't really like animals and is stricter with the dog, or I jump in and intervene. To be fair, he's extremely tired when he gets home and isn't really patient with anyone. 
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm honestly curious. Why is it always my fault?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I know it can seem that way, and there are plenty of people out there who like to play the blame game (either everything is the owner's fault or everything is the dog's fault or whatever) but at least in all the force-free classes I've been to and the classes I'm taking to become a trainer, there is absolutely none of that. It's not about 'fault'.

You and your dog are both learning new languages. This is not an easy thing to do. If you took up learning Mandarin, you wouldn't expect to read and write fluently right away. You're bound to make mistakes, have trouble with tricky grammar, and all kinds of things. That's not 'fault', it's not negative or a bad thing, it's just part of learning. I think a lot of force-free trainers (or positive or whatever term you want to use) are often very hard on themselves. You do hear a lot of "well if he had an accident, it's all on you for not watching well enough." 

So, as one of those force-free trainers, I just want to tell you that you're awesome. It's NOT your fault. You're working hard and pushing on even when things are really difficult and you should be insanely proud of that. List out every accomplishment and good thing that's happened, no matter how small, and focus on all those victories. Because you're doing great things and you will continue to do great things! Will you mess up, make a mistake? Sure. But that's not your FAULT, that's just learning.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Because they're dogs. They don't do bad things because they are bad dogs. Most dogs just want to please you, so you just have to figure out how to communicate what you want. If you don't like jumping, train them to sit to get attention. 

The hard part is knowing how to train them, every dog is different. If you're getting too frustrated, call for some professional help to teach you the best way to communicate with your dog.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

It's not about fault, it's about giving the dog the instructions clearly enough that they understand "do not jump - instead do ______". So really, it's about communication.  

Communicating in a more positive way helps the dog to understand better and have an easier time redirecting to the new action, whereas communicating negatively (ie: knee to the chest when dog jumps) could impact your relationship with your dog or leave them feeling confused.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

ormommy said:


> I'd actually quit training a few months because of this. I did a lot right, but didn't do everything perfect, yet my dog is still reactive, and I'm having a heck of a time with jumping on people. My mental health can't handle an all-my-fault method.
> My husband, who doesn't go for that, has got the dog to stop jumping, but it doesn't generalize. He doesn't really like animals and is stricter with the dog, or I jump in and intervene. To be fair, he's extremely tired when he gets home and isn't really patient with anyone.
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm honestly curious. Why is it always my fault?


Don't think of it as your fault, think of it as your responsibility. It's your responsibility because you're the one who chose to have a dog, who chose that dog, and because you're the one with a big thinky brain and thumbs. The dog didn't choose to exist or to live in your home and he can't take responsibility for anything, he lacks the mens rea for it.

That's not to say having a reactive dog is your fault or makes you a bad owner or person. These things happen. It takes a long time to fix. The fact that you are trying is good. Better than 90% of people out there. I had a severely DA dog, and it took over a year to get him to the point of being able to be walked, and he had bad days his entire life.

So take a deep breath, let it out and tell anyone who thinks you're not trying to suck it, lol.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Effisia said:


> I know it can seem that way, and there are plenty of people out there who like to play the blame game (either everything is the owner's fault or everything is the dog's fault or whatever) but at least in all the force-free classes I've been to and the classes I'm taking to become a trainer, there is absolutely none of that. It's not about 'fault'.
> 
> You and your dog are both learning new languages. This is not an easy thing to do. If you took up learning Mandarin, you wouldn't expect to read and write fluently right away. You're bound to make mistakes, have trouble with tricky grammar, and all kinds of things. That's not 'fault', it's not negative or a bad thing, it's just part of learning. I think a lot of force-free trainers (or positive or whatever term you want to use) are often very hard on themselves. You do hear a lot of "well if he had an accident, it's all on you for not watching well enough."
> 
> So, as one of those force-free trainers, I just want to tell you that you're awesome. It's NOT your fault. You're working hard and pushing on even when things are really difficult and you should be insanely proud of that. List out every accomplishment and good thing that's happened, no matter how small, and focus on all those victories. Because you're doing great things and you will continue to do great things! Will you mess up, make a mistake? Sure. But that's not your FAULT, that's just learning.


Yes, this too! The real key is to not get mad at your dog. So it's better to blame yourself for not communicating. If this makes you anxious, though, your dog will sense that as well.

Maybe it's easier to think of it this way. What you're striving for is 100% positive interactions. That helps build your relationship so your dog "listens" better, and the whole communication thing gets easier.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It's not your fault that your dog is reactive. It isn't your fault your dog is still reactive.

It just isn't your dog's fault, either, you know? 

A lot of people like to blame the dog, so they can justify punishing the dogs and harsh methods. The response to that has become "it's always the owners fault" and that's not right all the time, either. Sometimes things just ARE. 

In most situations though, the healthiest approach is to simply accept that there is no blame or fault to be had and get on with dealing with issues that are in front of you.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

It's all your fault because you are supposed to be the one with the big brain! Don't think of it like that though. Think of it as a game you get to make your way through with unlimited lives and strategies. You get multiple chances to play and you can change your approach to get through the game. It's dang nab it, that didn't work and figure out another approach for your next try. It's oops, missed that and got killed, good thing I have unlimited lives!

Positive training helps you too. Seeing the glass half full is good for your outlook on any issues with your dog. When my dogs were incredibly irritating, forging ahead to get to sniffy places and taking FOREVER at every one I was so annoyed I didn't want to walk them. When I started simply praising them for leaving the sniffy places my mood changed but even better they stopped being so obsessive about it and didn't pull so hard or stay so long at sniffy places. Same for Bucky's tantrums when he sees dogs. I ignore the tantrum and reward when he regains his senses. The tantrums don't bother me and I think they are shorter because I am ignoring them. It would be better of course if I had started working him before his mind went south but life happens.

You didn't make your pup like that, he just is that way. Your very interesting and difficult job is to help him learn that he doesn't need to scream and lunge just because he sees another dog a mile away. He'll get it, you will get it in the end. He's a baby and babies aren't born
well behaved.

Last month's Bucky game was what to do when he barked at my daughter when she came into the room. She is really exciting because she cooks dinner resulting in lovely smells and tidbits for dogs that stay out of the kitchen. Many false starts but I think we are on to something at last. We use body pressure to put him in his now open crate where he has been confined for many doggy misdeeds over the six months he's been here. That calms him down, he can come out and be more civilized. So that little game solved, what will he come up with next?


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Here is a really good article for you to read:

http://thewolfdogblog.com/2014/11/26/yes-i-have-a-reactive-dog-no-it-is-not-my-fault/

NO, it's not your "fault" that your dog is... ummmm... a DOG. What I see as the human's "fault" is failure to recognize, make accommodations for and strive to manage their dog's environment so as to help him be the very best he can be. Does that mean our dogs are going to be 'perfect'? Heavens NO!! Far from it. At the end of the day (and, actually, for the entire 24 hour period) they are going to be, and therefore ACT, like *dogs*. We simply need to adjust to the dog they are.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I prefer to think of unwanted behaviors my dogs perform as entirely my fault, because (aside from me being a bit odd) that makes me feel like I have control over the situation. If everything my dogs do wrong is my fault, then I can learn how to live and train better so that they do fewer wrong things. I have no control if I think I'm doing everything right and my dog is still doing things wrong. But when the onus is on me to improve, I can learn how to better communicate and structure my life so that my dogs understand more clearly what is wanted from them.

I think assigning blame is a 'tool' that trainers use to impress upon owners that they, as the humans with overly developed brains, are the ones in control of how the training proceeds. If the trainer approaches a dog and says 'that's the dog's fault', then the responsibility is on the DOG to improve, and not the human. That's never going to go anywhere. When you accept responsibility for your communication with and your handling of your dog, and can admit and accept when you do things wrong, then training is going to feel less like a job and more like an adventure, and you're probably also going to see more positive outcomes.

That being said - things like aggression, reactivity, SA... Those conditions are often genetically predisposed and not necessarily your 'fault'. If you're doing things to nurture those conditions instead of attempting to eliminate them, then yeah, it's your 'fault' that your dog is still behaving in a way you don't want. For instance, if you're treating aggression or reactivity by putting a prong collar on and collar popping your dog - yeah, it's your fault that doesn't work and your fault the behavior gets worse. But most likely, in a totally positive environment, continued reactivity isn't your fault, even if it persists through years of training. It just IS and you learn how to manage it and try to take a few steps forward every day.

The only thing, I would venture to say, that is your FAULT in your dog's training is that you gave up. Training isn't easy. Sometimes it can be years until you see a positive outcome. Sometimes the person you're working with just isn't a good fit for you, even if they have good ideas, and you need to find someone else. But throwing in the towel and saying 'I'm not dealing with things being my fault' is quitting. You quit on your dog, which isn't okay. It's okay to quit on a trainer you don't like, or a facility that doesn't work well for you, etc. But it's not okay to quit on your dog. I suggest picking yourself back up, taking some responsibility, not allowing your forceful and impatient husband to train your dog, and trying to move forward with improving your dog's, and your own, quality of life.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> You quit on your dog, which isn't okay


I actually, really _strongly_ disagree with this statement. 

It isn't okay to get frustrated and jump to harsh methods that traumatize your dog, but it absolutely is okay to say 'I've had enough of this issue, we're not going to work on it anymore'. Sometimes it is the kindest thing you can do, for both yourself and your dog.

If you want to work on an issue like reactivity, or fear issues, or dog aggression, or whatever other thing for years - Well, I won't judge you, but at some point it's not about the dog anymore, it's about your ego as a dog owner or trainer. It is absolutely okay to say 'this is an issue, this is going to continue to be an issue, so we're just going to go with a combination of avoidance and management to keep everyone safe and in their comfort zone'. 

There is literally NOTHING wrong with that, particularly if your alternative is continuing to hammer at an issue that makes your dog uncomfortable or unhappy for years.

Heck, I'll do you one better. It's okay to do that even if the issue is very resolvable, wont' take years, and it's just plain stressing you out. 

Choosing to keep the dog on a leash, long line or inside a fence rather than become frustrated because you're having trouble training recall. Crating your dog when guests come over because you don't like they way they interact, avoiding places where there are strange other dogs, giving up a sport or playing it because you're struggling, putting the trash can on top of the counter, whatever. "Giving up" the training and going to management?

It's okay to do. It's FINE to do. 

And sometimes it's 200% the RIGHT THING to do for both dog and owner.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

CptJack said:


> I actually, really _strongly_ disagree with this statement.
> 
> It isn't okay to get frustrated and jump to harsh methods that traumatize your dog, but it absolutely is okay to say 'I've had enough of this issue, we're not going to work on it anymore'. Sometimes it is the kindest thing you can do, for both yourself and your dog.
> 
> ...


My point was that she quit on the dog, and if I'm reading between the lines, she's allowing her 'non animal loving' husband to forcefully train the dog in her stead. That is NOT okay. 

Managing instead of training for a particular issue is fine. Heck, you know me, I have had FOUR very aggressive dogs who were never 100% rehabbed. They were 100% managed.

OP gave up on positive training in general, not just one aspect of training that was troubling. She threw her hands in the air and said 'this is too hard'. And now the puppy is doing regular puppy things that are pretty easy to train away (like jumping on people), and is being forcefully trained to not do those things because OP quit.

ETA: tl;dr Giving up on one difficult aspect of training that is frustrating is acceptable. Giving up on training in general because as a human you don't want to take responsibility for when you do things incorrectly.... Not so much.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I learned from my only journey,,, with my personally own reactive dog ( my military dogs could act the same way and everyone is fine with it, that it was normal) and that is what I decided after the one training center was dead set on pushing life to be totally miserable owning him and them being totally terrible at that dog to want to frustrate him more (constantly wanting to aggravate him in class) to prove how much I should put the waste of the dog down before he kills someone...... ,,,,I learned loving this dog, that life with them is much more then what they can't do/ or what they dislike.. and life is too short with them to waste a precious moment.. I found another training center that was able to move past his behaviors, and provide a training environment to work on the total dog not just "hounding on his re activity".. Balance ,, you truly need handler and dog balance..... amazing that learning all the other skills so strongly with each other,, makes life so much balanced together..


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Honestly I'm not connecting the dots from "positive training" to "always your fault" ?? Who says this?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Honestly I'm not connecting the dots from "positive training" to "always your fault" ?? Who says this?


Honestly I've never heard it said but there is a lot of 'if the dog is doing X, you're providing the opportunity or haven't trained/managed it well enough, are moving too fast, whatever'. That is not, however, the same thing as it always being the owner's fault. 

Fault's a whole different kettle of fish.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Honestly I'm not connecting the dots from "positive training" to "always your fault" ?? Who says this?


I think it crops up a lot in potty training and general puppy training. Like, if a puppy has an accident in the house, positive people usually put the 'it's your fault for not taking your puppy outside' spin on it. Or if a puppy chews something up, people hear 'it's your fault for not watching your puppy'. 

From reading past threads, OP was having a lot of problems with house training even when her puppy was (if my math is right) 9 months old. And she was told a few times that all of her problems sounded like they were the result of an under-exercised, untrained, bored puppy, which are indeed 100% an owner's fault.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Saying "with +R training, it's always your fault" is about as accurate as saying "+R training means you let the dog do whatever he wants because no corrections." Which is to say, both are false. 
I agree it's not about faults. It's about dealing with the dog in front of you. Challenges are not about faults but about how to train past them, how to manage them, or how to accept and live with them. Notice that with the "how"s, it is not as simple as just pointing a finger to blame. Sure we all make mistakes. I don't think 'fault' is a dirty word because yeah, sometimes it's on us. If you take your aggressive dog to a dog park and your dog bites, yeah that's your fault. But that is very much not your situation. Your situation sounds like you are doing everything you can and there are still challenges. That's life. 

I agree with CptJack. It's okay to tell yourself you don't want to deal with this anymore and just accept or manage. When you feel up to training again, set small goals. A reactive dog is going to be reactive. If she reacts, doesn't mean you've failed unless you let one setback hold you down. If I had a reactive dog I would be proud of small things like:
-We walked one block with nice focus and no reactivity
-She reacted at that dog but I did a good job of moving her along
-We aren't walking today and my dog had a great time lounging in the yard.
-I have a reactive dog and I did zero training today. But you know what, look at how happy this dog is and how wonderful it is to have her here!

One note of caution if your husband uses corrections... He may be inadvertently handing you a harder dog to deal with. This may not be your situation but just as an example, lets say you have a dog reactive dog. Let's say you have tried everything in the books with behavioral adjustment, counter conditioning, proofing rock solid stays, the whole nine yards... And you are seeing inconsistent progress. Let's make pretend your husband sometimes takes this dog out, the dog reacts, and instead of following your protocol he simply yanks the leash and tells the dog to shush. The issue here would be your dog is not feeling any better about other dogs. On top of that, your dog's fears about the other dogs are confirmed because every time he sees another dog he gets corrected and his dear person gets angry. So your dog still wants to react but the will to react is crushed and the emotions are being pent up. Now you take your dog out and are hoping your methods work... And your dog explodes at the end of the leash. Well of course he would, because he has inadvertently been taught that other dogs are an even bigger threat than he imagined due to the corrections.

Which is to say, correcting a reactive dog is the last thing you want to do. And on top of that, consistency is one of the most important aspects of training. I am not for corrections, but you and your husband should choose one method and stick with it. Also, do keep in mind that even if corrections were not applied during walks, emotions from negative events throughout the day can build up and make for a more stressed dog by the time walks come around. That's how you get dogs that are so tolerant and friendly at parties, but react 'out of the blue' towards the end. Just like people, one stressful situation or negative event may not bring you down but they can pile up throughout the day and make you explode at the breaking point.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Think of it like having kids. If your 2 year old is whining and throwing a tantrum, do you blame the kid? Punish them? Hopefully you realize they are little kids doing what little kids do, and as the adult it's your job to either prevent it (get the kid a nap or a snack or don't take them somewhere they can't handle), or to deal with as best you can once you're in it. It's frustrating, but you can't blame toddlers for acting like toddlers. Dogs are the same. As the adults it's ultimately our responsibility to handle the situation with patience and compassion. It doesn't mean that everything is your "fault" and that you caused the problem, but it is your responsibility to deal with it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I've heard this general sentiment before, and I think it comes from trying to combat people saying their dog is being spiteful or intentionally disobedient or 'but he -knows- it', etc.

Basically switching from the mentality of the dog just being bad to thinking about what -you- as an owner can do to fix/improve/prevent the situation.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

well how long did it take everyone to learn to write, how long did it take anyone to learn to walk, to speak, to read, to recognize numbers, and do math problems... and then do it well.... and then do it fluently ???? some how people get the impression that reading a training book and turning the page is some how as fast as the dog should learn and do and be over it.... or that not doing something right... That is where I want people to change.... is on how they think the dogs should reach success in training...


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

As Sass suggested so concisely, if you embrace positive training, then you should assign blame, b/c blame is a form of punishment ... applied to the trainer, in this case. As far as reactivity and DA, I believe there are owners on this forum with many decades of respected experience who have dogs that are still DA, b/c "they are".

There are many positive methods to approach training a dog not to jump, and after you give each method a few weeks to work, you try another method. ON the other hand, sometimes a dog just needs to gain a little maturity to get it. For example, Labs and Boxers (and sometimes Pits) are high energy dogs that are comparatively easy to train ... after they jump up and greet you by licking you in the face (or worse if your mouth is open). Fortunately, Labs and Pits mellow as they age. I don't know if Boxers grow less energetic - [ I believe Pierce's owner decided that life was easier if he just obeyed Pierce.]


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Let's not think of it in terms of assigning blame. . .better to think of it as a force of nature. Like a tornado---it's nobody's fault, but you still have to clean up after it .


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Amaryllis said:


> Don't think of it as your fault, think of it as your responsibility. It's your responsibility because you're the one who chose to have a dog, who chose that dog, and because you're the one with a big thinky brain and thumbs. The dog didn't choose to exist or to live in your home and he can't take responsibility for anything, he lacks the mens rea for it.


Well said.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Tangentially to talking about fault and blame and etc., at some point you also just have to accept that a dog is a living higher order creature and it's never going to be perfect or perfectly controlled. I remember posts from a while ago where little Frodo was supposed to grow up to be all things to all people, which really wouldn't be very realistic even if he was from a fantastic lineage and the OP was an experienced trainer. 

Moreover, he's an adolescent dog. He's going to act like a butthead. That is what adolescent dogs do. He might mature to be an easy-to-handle dog or he might not. When we train we don't train for five minutes from now, we train for the long run. That means building foundations of respect, trust and affection, and accepting that most desired behaviors come in baby steps, not quantum leaps. It also means learning to manage undesired behaviors in the meantime. And making it through canine babyhood and adolescence is pretty much all about management. Sporty dog breeds are often terrorists 'til two. That doesn't mean you don't work with them in the meantime, but it does mean you don't always see the payoff of that effort until they finish growing up.

For me predominantly R+ training has always gotten better results, which is a large part of why I encourage others to use it. But it's not just about effectiveness or being humane, for me...it's also about what kind of person I want to be and the relationships I want to foster. I didn't get a dog to be my punching bag. I got a dog to all be buddies and do fun stuff and have happier lives.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, I was gonna say that, too. . .a year-old Spaniel, especially a male, is just about maximum stupid and hyper . Things will really improve in the next 6 months, I promise. They start growing a brain around 18 months. Hang in there!


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> I think it crops up a lot in potty training and general puppy training. Like, if a puppy has an accident in the house, positive people usually put the 'it's your fault for not taking your puppy outside' spin on it. Or if a puppy chews something up, people hear 'it's your fault for not watching your puppy'.
> 
> From reading past threads, OP was having a lot of problems with house training even when her puppy was (if my math is right) 9 months old. And she was told a few times that all of her problems sounded like they were the result of an under-exercised, untrained, bored puppy, which are indeed 100% an owner's fault.


Totally wrong. I was having trouble with reactivity. I NEVER tried any harsh methods. I stuck with positive training. But each walk was a nightmare. And there are a lot of posts around here that say trouble with your dog is your fault. I was ill, just out of the hospital, and didn't have it in me to fix all the things that were my fault.
So, rather then pay for private training and behaviorists, I just took long walks at night. It was peaceful.

My husband...isn't force free, but not forceful in the way you're thinking. The dog adores him. *shrug* My marriage is more important than the dog. I should've got more on the jumping, but he wasn't traumatized.

I had a spat of potty training regression for...less then a month at 9 months. I started crating, it went away.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm sorry, because I realized I kept getting a 'post failure' about a day ago when we had a family emergency and I had wanted to thank people for helping me understand when this thread was 1/3 the size it is.

I do think, this thread proves my point in a way. I have given up on my dog. I let my horrible husband ruin him. I didn't exercise him enough when he was nine months old, when he was actually getting long walks, just at night, although I'd let management slip. Do you not hear how that sounds, especially if you are already insecure and feel it is your fault because only people on a message board know what the word reactive is? (Just FYI, my husband is far better walking him, because he's not scared of control if a dog gets loose, you know? He does exactly what I say and I always come. And he's paying for an expensive behavioral specialist Monday).

And yes, I was overambitious, and interested in everything, when my lifetime dream of getting a dog I could do dog sports with came true. Is there a day it'll quit getting rubbed in my face? It's already proven far more complicated then I dreamed and I realize his reactivity may never improve enough.
Well, it's time to walk the dog so we can watch the Turtles movie


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ormommy said:


> I'm sorry, because I realized I kept getting a 'post failure' about a day ago when we had a family emergency and I had wanted to thank people for helping me understand when this thread was 1/3 the size it is.
> 
> I do think, this thread proves my point in a way. I have given up on my dog. I let my horrible husband ruin him. I didn't exercise him enough when he was nine months old, when he was actually getting long walks, just at night, although I'd let management slip. Do you not hear how that sounds, especially if you are already insecure and feel it is your fault because only people on a message board know what the word reactive is? (Just FYI, my husband is far better walking him, because he's not scared of control if a dog gets loose, you know? He does exactly what I say and I always come. And he's paying for an expensive behavioral specialist Monday).
> 
> ...


I actually find this pretty ironic - not your post but the grief you got. 

I mean. I have a reactive dog. I have more or less 'given up' on her when it comes to the reactivity. I got her to do sports with and that's not going to work out. I maybe don't always exercise as much as I should and I have backed way off working on the dog-dog issues in favor of just, you know, making her life happy and fun and enjoying her. I *put my dogs on medication* because of her fear stuff. She can pretty much do NOTHING I wanted to do with her as of now. 

But. No one seems to blame me or accuse me of giving up on the dog. Granted my husband doesn't do any kind of aversive training either, but .

It's really weird, overall.

(Long way around of saying: I feel for you and I don't think the crap you get here is fair, either.)


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Think of it like having kids. If your 2 year old is whining and throwing a tantrum, do you blame the kid? Punish them? Hopefully you realize they are little kids doing what little kids do, and as the adult it's your job to either prevent it (get the kid a nap or a snack or don't take them somewhere they can't handle), or to deal with as best you can once you're in it. It's frustrating, but you can't blame toddlers for acting like toddlers. Dogs are the same. As the adults it's ultimately our responsibility to handle the situation with patience and compassion. It doesn't mean that everything is your "fault" and that you caused the problem, but it is your responsibility to deal with it.


Beautifully said


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

ormommy said:


> I NEVER tried any harsh methods.


Did you decide against the shock collar for barking, then?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you use harsh methods and your dog still doesn't behave the way you want to (or behaves the way you want to but is obviously shut down and miserable), is that somehow _not_ your fault? I guess I'm not seeing the distinction here. A training failure is a training failure.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, I was gonna say that, too. . .a year-old Spaniel, especially a male, is just about maximum stupid and hyper . Things will really improve in the next 6 months, I promise. They start growing a brain around 18 months. Hang in there!


That's interesting...I hadn't thought about age. *hand smacks head*


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

parus said:


> Did you decide against the shock collar for barking, then?


I meant for reactivity, and the vast majority of his training. Yes, after months of 3-4 hours of nightly barking. I had tried multiple methods. It was affecting our sleep and the neighbors were not happy. He had a walk, a run in a enclosed field and several daily training/play sessions. We tried numerous methods. Loss of sleep and irritation wasn't helping or improving things. Finally, I agreed to try the collar.
5 min the first night, 2 the second. It worked, and he never once appeared 'shut down and miserable' Don't even know where it is. I don't think it ha wrecked our relationship or anything. The 2-4 hours of barking, however, ever, were.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

CptJack said:


> I actually find this pretty ironic - not your post but the grief you got.
> 
> I mean. I have a reactive dog. I have more or less 'given up' on her when it comes to the reactivity. I got her to do sports with and that's not going to work out. I maybe don't always exercise as much as I should and I have backed way off working on the dog-dog issues in favor of just, you know, making her life happy and fun and enjoying her. I *put my dogs on medication* because of her fear stuff. She can pretty much do NOTHING I wanted to do with her as of now.
> 
> ...


The difference between your situation and OP's situation is that OP seems very defeatist about the fact that her dreams with her dog didn't work out the way she intended, and seems unwilling (at least at first, though her latest post seems far more willing) to accept the blame for some of her dog's issues.

I know you have trouble with Molly. Never once have I seen you say 'maybe I should rehome her because she's not what I want'. I don't think that thought would cross your mind? OP has thought about rehoming her dog and started threads about it. 

The difference between you and OP (in my mind) is that you have figured out what will work for Molly and are actively attempting to help her overcome her issues. Perhaps she isn't the dog you want, but she's the dog you have, and you've made changes to accommodate her and to fit her into your life. I've never really seen any defeatist or 'throw my hands up in the air' kinds of posts from you, I don't think?

OP has been disappointed in her dog SO many times. When his conformation eval came back, she felt cheated and was talking about how getting her money back and returning the puppy wasn't an option. She posted about how horribly he did in puppy kindergarten, about his disastrous walks, about how she and her husband didn't have the patience to train him to bark in a +R manner and wondered which bark or citronella collar to use, quick fix methods for reactivity, etc. Maybe I miss the good threads? Every time I turn around, I see struggling, disappointment and negativity. 

Pretty sure that's the big difference between the two of you.

ETA: OP, if you want to stop getting 'grief', try telling us what you like about your dog sometimes. You have 2.5 pages of thread history, half of which are basically complaints or things that are going wrong. Or, if you want help with an issue, try being positive and hopeful about asking for help. I just read through about 8 of your threads, and every one sounds defeated and ready to give up. WE ALL feel that way sometimes. Most of us don't run to the forum and immediately post about things when we're upset, though. 

I've definitely had downs with Titan. He's given me black eyes, bloody lips and pulled my nose ring halfway out of my nose (twice). I am COVERED in bruises and people think I am getting abused because he still mouths me really hard sometimes. I am currently having an issue with him launching his 120 lb puppy body at me full force when we're in the yard (which I haven't mentioned on the forum before). But for the most part, I try to keep the bad days to myself and to share the good days. I'm not a 'manifest your positive outcome' type person generally, but if all you ever post is 'this isn't working, this stinks, this didn't go well', you're going to end up seeing the bad in the situation constantly. Post about the good things, too. It'll help us see that you're not someone who's willing to start complaining and to give up at the drop of a hat.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

ormommy said:


> I meant for reactivity, and the vast majority of his training. Yes, after months of 3-4 hours of nightly barking. I had tried multiple methods. It was affecting our sleep and the neighbors were not happy. He had a walk, a run in a enclosed field and several daily training/play sessions. We tried numerous methods. Loss of sleep and irritation wasn't helping or improving things. Finally, I agreed to try the collar.
> 5 min the first night, 2 the second. It worked, and he never once appeared 'shut down and miserable' Don't even know where it is. I don't think it ha wrecked our relationship or anything. The 2-4 hours of barking, however, ever, were.


And you seem super happy with the dog and his level of calm now? 

I'm just saying, I don't know if, having electroshocked a six month old puppy (or however old he was) into quiet, it's very realistic to tell how sincerely you've stuck to R+ methods and how it's baffling they haven't been more effective. I can't help but doubt that's the only example of pretty serious P+ in this pup's life. 

If I use rewards only when teaching the dog to walk on a leash, but use kicks in the ribs when teaching the dog not to jump up, it's not like the dog is going to compartmentalize, like "oh, I'm in R+ mode now? That's cool, I'll just switch over to that version of our relationship."


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There's actually never been any possibility or thought of me rehoming Molly, no. It's just not something that's going to happen, ever. She's my dog and we have an actual relationship and that's something I think OP could probably use some more of in her life. Just breathing, relaxing, and learning to enjoy the dog for what he is, instead of beating her head against the brick wall of what he isn't. 

That said, I still sympathize. 

I don't agree with a lot of what she's done - at all - and I'm not saying that I do. I get the backlash at that, but at the same time. I get where it's coming from more than I usually do most posters here, I guess.

Taking the disappointment, frustration and even grief for the dog that didn't really exist (ever, outside her head) is absolutely, positively, undeniably WRONG. There is no dog who is going to be exactly what you expect or want, and no living being will live up to your expectations/imagination. Sort of like if you're looking for Prince Charming and Disney Romance you're never going to have a real partner who can live up to that. 

But. 

This is her first dog. She's had a long time to build up expectations and dreams and had a dog exist in her head that didn't materialize in reality. I've never hurt Molly, used desperate measures/positive punishment to deal with her issues, or thought about rehoming. I'm also an experienced dog owner who KNEW what I wanted and what I got might be very different. I'm not a first time owner who was sold a pet quality puppy as a show dog, or who was still under the belief that if you go to a breeder and meet the parents and do things right that you won't have these issues. 

And even knowing all that walking in? 

Well, like I said, there is no chance in this world I would ever, ever, rehome Molly or resort to desperate, aversive, training methods, but I have sure as heck done time crying my eyes out, feeling like a miserable failure, and just plain being frustrated and lost. 

So I guess I don't like what she's DONE with those feelings and don't condone them but I sympathize with the feelings driving it.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> So I guess I don't like what she's DONE with those feelings and don't condone them but I sympathize with the feelings driving it.


Oh sure. 

Not to baggage up the thread, but even though I'm pretty old now, I remember what it felt like to not feel safe as a child, but be unable to do anything about it because I was dependent. I've tried to keep that in mind when I might otherwise have been too harsh with those dependent on me, which in my book includes animals.

While I can sympathize - and indeed empathize - with the feelings that trigger passive or active unkindness to children, elders, and animals, I can't find a lot of of tolerance for them being expressed in that form, despite the fact that I myself do have a hideous temper and am impatient. But hey, maybe it's a case of the former drinker being the biggest lecturer about the evils of alcohol. 

I have no problem with rehoming, if done responsibly (and not serially). Step up or step off, is my general view. 

Molly is lucky to have you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> I have no problem with rehoming, if done responsibly (and not serially)


I don't either. 

My personal bench mark is whether the dog's life is better with a move, but sometimes things happen and rehoming happens and I don't really care as long as thought and care is put in and it isn't, as you said, serial.

Thud, I thought about rehoming for a good two years, because we just... didn't mesh. I probably would have if my husband and kids hadn't been so into him. That's changed now, but it's just never been a consideration with Molly. If there was another lifestyle or home where she'd be happier, I'd let her go though it would kill me, but. She's mine. Not in a possessive way, but in that 'owned in return' way. There is a very real relationship and bond there. If there weren't, living with her would be almost impossible I think.

But because there is - I don't know. She still frustrates me and makes me cry sometimes, makes me feel like a failure sometimes, too, but.










There's something really powerful there, too, and I really can't imagine giving her up. It'd take about half my heart with her, you know?

and now I'm done gushing.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

parus said:


> And you seem super happy with the dog and his level of calm now?
> 
> I'm just saying, I don't know if, having electroshocked a six month old puppy (or however old he was) into quiet, it's very realistic to tell how sincerely you've stuck to R+ methods and how it's baffling they haven't been more effective. I can't help but doubt that's the only example of pretty serious P+ in this pup's life.
> 
> If I use rewards only when teaching the dog to walk on a leash, but use kicks in the ribs when teaching the dog not to jump up, it's not like the dog is going to compartmentalize, like "oh, I'm in R+ mode now? That's cool, I'll just switch over to that version of our relationship."


You're assuming kicks in the ribs. Or anything physical for that matter. There's a middle ground between physical punishment and not all +. I actually am happy with him and his level of activity now. I feel a lot of my motives (like rehoming- I never considered that!! Not seriously) are being falsely stated and I am not getting into a quoting war. I could explain the attitude you saw in the posts, but it involves things l don't feel comfortable sharing, given the attitude towards me and the assumptions about what I'm doing - and yes, the e-collar is the only positive punishment I've done. I'm not the only one who had to choose between city noise ordinances and the ideal, not even on here.

It's too bad to see a question turn into this. It's petty, hurtful, and really proves the saying about assumptions. Thank you, CptJack, for sticking up for me.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> I actually find this pretty ironic - not your post but the grief you got.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



I don't get it, either.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

ormommy said:


> (like rehoming- I never considered that!! Not seriously)


People have only your posts to go on. And in your posts you both talked about getting the breeder to refund you because he wasn't a strong conformation candidate, and just rehoming him in general. If now you're like "I was just kidding lol" that's your prerogative but expecting readers to be psychic isn't reasonable. Venting is legit, as is changing one's mind, but people have only your words to form a picture by.



> and yes, the e-collar is the only positive punishment *I've done*.


Bolding mine. Your dog is getting positive punishments besides what you're doing, yes?

Philosophical or practical concerns about R+ training can be legitimate, but complaining about how R+ doesn't work if R+ isn't actually the input the dog is getting...it's not being honest with yourself, I don't think.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> There is a very real relationship and bond there. If there weren't, living with her would be almost impossible I think.


This is how I felt about Queenie her first couple years. What a nightmare dog she was. Now she's fifteen and lovely and sleeping on my feet and I can't imagine it any other way. So yeah, I get that.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

The thing is, when you actually commit to taking positive punishment off the table - not just reserve it for someone else to administer, or to use when things get tough - it makes a difference in how you apply rewards and the various positive training methods. In my experience, there's a level of consistency and creativity generated which makes the training much more effective, and can foster a very generous attitude in the dog, even if the animal still struggles in certain areas. If you've always got the metaphorical stick ready to hand, it's not really R+ training, even if you're currently refraining from using the stick, if that makes any sense. And both you and the dog are shaped by that.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Wow, what a roller coaster ride. I'm glad others on here brought up previous issues the OP had with her dog, otherwise, I may have written a very different response. I think this whole thing is about expectations of a fulfilment of a dream, rather than truly wanting a dog for the dog's sake. As CPT Jack said, "This is her first dog. She's had a long time to build up expectations and dreams and had a dog exist in her head that didn't materialize in reality. I've never hurt Molly, used desperate measures/positive punishment to deal with her issues, or thought about rehoming. I'm also an experienced dog owner who KNEW what I wanted and what I got might be very different. I'm not a first time owner who was sold a pet quality puppy as a show dog, or who was still under the belief that if you go to a breeder and meet the parents and do things right that you won't have these issues."

I learned this fairly early in my "dog life." I had been successful in a variety of sports with several breeds of dogs. When my "breeder of choice" kept putting off a puppy, she finally told me she had a "promising" year old dog, but this dog was a "hooligan." Well, this was a super-prominent breeder. Accolades out the wazoo in that breed's world. Impeccable breeding, a repeat of highly successful dogs. I took the year old dog. I had stars in my eyes. I lived 13 hours away from the breeder. The dog was a basket case. I knew she came from a kennel environment. I knew she had never lived in a house. I figured it would be easy because I was a "trainer." However, nothing prepared me to deal with this dog's issues. She was ON me 24/7. A 75 lb dog clawing at me, mugging me, out of control...yet also shying away from anything new, which for her was EVERYTHING. I quickly realized that the 4-point major bragged about by the breeder of this dog already possessed was clearly a fluke, given by a "friend" judge.

Luckily, it was during this time that I learned about positive training, but just BARELY. Initially when this poor new dog was jumping all over me, simply out of surprise and pain, I used punishment and force, but it only made this dog even more "crazy." So...what can be hard for people to do...TAKE A DEEP BREATH and evaluate the situation. I'd been to the breeder's house many times. I'd been there when she'd make her cleaning rounds of her kennels....she didn't have a relationship with her dogs...they were merely her conduit for her human glory. The DOGS wanted a relationship...but she only controlled them with weapons...the pooper scooper and mops. She controlled them with fear.

So I quit chastising this dog for jumping on me. I just stood still, didn't look at her, didn't say anything. And yes, it hurt. I was covered in bruises. But every time she had four feet on the ground, I WOULD look at her, and at first, THAT made her jump on me again. So I just simply averted my eyes, and waited. Eventually, she GOT it, but not right away, and not after a period where just looking at her caused her not to jump again, but actually saying something didn't prevent her from jumping, and certainly not when reaching out to pet her stopped her from jumping. It took about a month or so of BELIEVING that what I was doing was the right way, and not EXPECTING a pre-conceived notion, that she "got it." She figured out that I would give her attention when all four feet were on the ground. She wasn't "being bad" she was just so STARVED for true affection that her previous behavior was the only way she thought she could get it.

It was halfway through that entire process that I SERIOUSLY thought about returning this dog to the breeder. The initial progress was so slow that I wasn't sure it was even working. I hadn't signed up for this. I was supposed to get a "ready-made" show dog. But even when I was so close to making that phone call, all I could think about was what would I be sending that dog back to? There was a TON of work yet to be done on this wonderful dog who eventually went on, despite everybody's doubts, to be successful, and playful, and pretty much the best dog I ever owned, calm and contented.

This is why, as a breeder, I would NEVER sell a puppy to first time dog owner that wanted "glory" in dog sports. This is why I refused stud service to people (experienced owners or breeders) who told me they wanted "stars" from their puppies and my dog was the "ticket" to their dreams. All of that crap doesn't just "happen." People who want and expect that, don't truly understand dogs.

Ormommy, people have rightly followed the progress, or lack of progress that you have with your dog, based on what you yourself have written. You make strong statements, and then you back-pedal that it isn't as bad as their responses make it out to be. I think Parus is right...I don't think you take any joy in this dog you have. Positive or negative reinforcement, positive or negative punishment aside, I don't think you believe in anything, you have done. I think your dog is mired in confusion. I think instead of taking that deep breath and truly evaluating what is going on, you aren't owning who is the true victim (and it isn't you).


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

PaddiB said:


> Ormommy, people have rightly followed the progress, or lack of progress that you have with your dog, based on what you yourself have written. You make strong statements, and then you back-pedal that it isn't as bad as their responses make it out to be. I think Parus is right...I don't think you take any joy in this dog you have. Positive or negative reinforcement, positive or negative punishment aside, I don't think you believe in anything, you have done. I think your dog is mired in confusion. I think instead of taking that deep breath and truly evaluating what is going on, you aren't owning who is the true victim (and it isn't you).


Since there's not a like button... :clap2::clap2::clap2:

And ormommy, quite frankly, from my point of view, you have it easy on this site. Quite a few people are sticking up for you and feeling bad for you. Check out the thread about someone who put a bark collar on a puppy that ran recently. You got NOWHERE NEAR that amount of ridicule and condescension from us. You can hide it under any guise you'd like if it makes you happy, but putting a bark collar on a puppy isn't +P. It's abuse. And it slid under the radar, I believe, because we're frankly disappointed in the way this situation continues to progress (or regress, really). 

Other people who put bark collars on puppies, who admit that they're being trained with punishment, who talk about rehoming their dogs on more than one thread... They get pretty harsh feedback here. You've gotten it pretty light, compared to other recent examples of similar situations.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

You know, I can really relate to how OP feels. I’m definitely the kind of person to dramatize and exaggerate and believe the whole world is ending - and then post about it. And then the next day I wake up and the sun is still in the sky and I feel better - but I don’t post about that because that’s not what’s causing me my angst.

The first page made a lot of sense, but most posts after that? I just disagree with jumping down OP’s throat. 

+R applies to people too, not just dogs. 

I feel for you, Ormommy.


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