# Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?



## NadiaK (Feb 8, 2017)

I was curious to know how many people have changed their kibble since the DCM scare. My puppy came from the breeder last December eating Purina Pro Plan. Due to all the issues with DCM I decided to leave her on it. But a couple months ago she absolutely refused to eat it. I changed her food to Farmina Ancestral Grains and so far she loves it. She gets kibble in the morning and in the evening I feed her Stella & Chewy freeze dried raw patties which she also loves. I have been looking to find another kibble that I can rotate with but it is not easy finding one. It seems like almost all of them have peas, lentils or potatoes in the first five ingredients. So if you changed your kibble to a grain inclusive one, which one are you feeding now and how is your dog doing on it?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I have fed mostly grain inclusive with limited peas and lentils for about 6 years now. Not because of DCM which only recently has even been something on the radar but because I dislike the ingredient splitting tactics of bumping up protein with several variations of peas and cause too many lead to dog farts that clear rooms.

Some foods I like that dogs seem to digest well--

https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/classic/dry/#adult
Fromm Classic, a little low in protein and calories for active dogs but good for moderately active adults. No peas or lentils.

https://www.propacultimates.com/dog-food/puppy-chicken-meal-brown-rice-formula/
A 30/20 formula with pretty simple ingredients from a reputable regional manufacturer. Has peas but not high on the list and not in multiple forms

https://www.sportmix.com/dog-food/wholesomes/wholesomes-chicken-meal-rice-formula/
Sportmix Wholesomes chicken and rice is one of the best "cheap" foods (under $1/lb at tractor supply). No peas or lentils, all life stages, mid range protein and fat.

Not yet tries but is on order for next bag rotation--
https://americannaturalpremium.com/dog-food/original-recipe/
No peas, lentils, legumes or potatoes.

And for a high calorie, high fat working dog type food, I quite liked this when I had the chance to get 5 or 6 bags at a good price. Seems more available in Canada and Chewy carries it at a bit higher price
https://www.inukshukpro.com/inukshuk-3025
One of the few foods over 500 kcals per cup and at 25% fat, I used it as a winter only food back when Chester and I were running and hiking real mileage.


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## laurelsmom (Feb 13, 2019)

I feed prepared raw and can't really afford it, but my understanding is that it isn't so much that dogs need to eat grains (they don't) as it is that they can't digest legumes as well as we thought they could.

I have toy breed mix puppies and I'm vegan, so I've cut back on sharing tastes of legumes with my wannabe vegetarian dog and offered her more vegetables. I made some sort of joke about how I just wanted to learn more about canine nutrition because switching them to Ol' Roy seemed like overkill when I've already got plenty of cornmeal, oatmeal, rice, quinoa, etc. and no human family to cook for. 

It was misunderstood and I was told that a deceased individual I admire fed their dogs Ol' Roy back in the 20th century so there was "nothing wrong" with feeding it to my pups now, when we know better than the deceased individual in pre-internet days did.

The problem with grains wasn't just that some dogs can't tolerate grains, but that many dogs can't tolerate the molds and other impurities that make the grains "unfit for human consumption". You might not want to click on this link if you have multiple large breed dogs or don't have a strong stomach, but it won't change the fact that reality is still reality:

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/its-not-pet-food-its-a-waste-disposal-system/

Laurel isn't a garbage can, she's a six pound micro-mutt. It can't be rocket science to grind up some tums, mix it in with some rice or veggies, and stretch out the 95% meat, bones, and organs + 5% fresh fruits and vegetables in her dog food to make it work to feed 11 lb Chocolate human-grade food too.

@Shell Sportmix looks really nice if I can't figure it out, though. Thank you so much for sharing the links.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Vets I personally know and trust think that after the proper studies, these boutique foods will be found to cause diet-associated DCM, so yeah, I've switched. I'd rather be safe than sorry. The fact that my papillon, who was eating Zignature, collapsed while on a walk (a possible DCM symptom) made it a little more urgent for me.

I switched to Science Diet Adult 7+ Active Longevity and my dogs are doing great on that. I had tried Royal Canin before that, but Crystal just got diarrhea no matter how slowly I switched.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

I switched off grain-free. There's a lot of hate for boutique foods, but a lot of them don't use peas, lentils or potatoes... and really, when you look at the numbers, ALL the foods that "caused" DCM had those. So I don't really get it. I mean, sure, they don't do all the "certified" testing that the big 4 companies do, but it's because they don't have the money to do it, not because their food is bad.
I wish I could afford Farmina though. I rotate every 2/3 bags and so far I've used Nature Select, Annamaet, and NutriSource (all with grains).

But I just can't bring myself to feed the "recommended" foods that barely have any meat protein and use so much corn (which is basically a filler with no nutritional value whatsoever) and brewers rice. People say that Dog Advisor is crap, but what they say about ingredients is not wrong. I'm honestly just shocked that so many people blindly recommend the "big 4". One of my dogs was on Purina Proplan when we got him, dull coat full of mats, and we switched him to boutique food, and he hasn't had one mat in the 10 months we've had him, and his coat is beautiful now. I just can't. Although obviously they are not all horrible (that science diet formula mentioned above is one of the best, but again, not enough meat for my taste).


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Yes. I went to 2 of the "big four". Eukanuba Sport and Pro Plan Sensitive Skin/Stomach. My dogs are actually doing fantastic on them when I expected the worst, honestly. :/ 

I had actually changed before the scare, but was on Farmina grain for about a year. About 6 months ago changed again.

I wanted to hate the big companies.. but they have been around so long they know how to balance formulas correctly. The more I continue to read about DCM and the possible causes.. the more it makes sense to me as to why these brands are "safer". They have already been there.. the formulations have not changed -too- crazy much.. they continue to do research etc. More protein means nothing (and the sport versions ARE high protein anyway) if they aren't properly balanced foods, especially with the correct amino acids.. which I'm learning are apparently high in Corn in By Product. There are two sides to everything.. and so now I'm learning the "other side" where I'm finding there are actual benefits to corn meal and by products in dog food. 

I want "better ingredients". But maybe what I thought was better isn't actually always better.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm curious FtLoD, why did you switch off of Farmina? Asking because I'm currently trying that brand out.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

There's been no case of DCM on Farmina as far as I know, too.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

I feed raw.. or did until my older dog suddenly decided that Raw chicken breast or thighs were no good (I put them out and she would sit on the opposite side of the kennel and look miserable as if sharing any space with them was going to kill her and she had been eating them well.. and they were bought at the supermarket in the meat section for people). She had been enthusiastically eating chicken thighs or breasts for breakfast for years.. (I can sometimes buy it on sale of as low as 77 cents a pound). 

So I switched her to Kibble in the morning. She get adult (over 7 years) pro-plan. She saw me put it in her bowl and it was like a different dog. She was jumping around and could not wait to eat. At night she gets raw and I mix in green tripe (she loves tripe). She is doing just fine. She is 9 and gets whatever she wants.


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## NadiaK (Feb 8, 2017)

Thank you for your responses. Shell thanks for the links. I will definitely check them out.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Yes. I went to 2 of the "big four". Eukanuba Sport and Pro Plan Sensitive Skin/Stomach. My dogs are actually doing fantastic on them when I expected the worst, honestly. :/
> 
> I had actually changed before the scare, but was on Farmina grain for about a year. About 6 months ago changed again.
> 
> ...


I'm curious about this. I've seen so many articles saying how bad by-products/corn/wheat gluten/brewers rice are, but none saying that they are actually good (except the whole "they are used in a food that has been tested so it must be fine" argument - I'm more in the "they use it in pet food because it's a cheap source of calories" camp myself). Where did you find that information?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Canyx said:


> I'm curious FtLoD, why did you switch off of Farmina? Asking because I'm currently trying that brand out.


My dogs had been on Acana for years and honestly was worried about the damage I may have caused to either of their hearts. I am way too afraid to get an echo with all complete honesty. So I did the next best thing I could. Some dogs have reversed minor DCM with change to one of the "big four". So if there is damage, I'm hoping that helps. Basically, I just don't know if Farmina has been proven in that area. They didn't have any DCM cases on the grain inclusive version but maybe one possible case on the grain free. 

I might add it back into my rotation someday. My dogs really did do good on it. The only issue I had was Kai's poop was a little "too hard" and often would get little dingle berries in her butt fluff. After changing to Pro Plan/Eukanuba my bank account is much happier though and honestly my dog's look just as good, if not better on it. I also wanted to try it out for my next dog anyway. I plan on getting a puppy to show and many breeder's advice leans toward those brands for proper grow out, heat cycles and fertility.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Francl27 said:


> I'm curious about this. I've seen so many articles saying how bad by-products/corn/wheat gluten/brewers rice are, but none saying that they are actually good (except the whole "they are used in a food that has been tested so it must be fine" argument - I'm more in the "they use it in pet food because it's a cheap source of calories" camp myself). Where did you find that information?


Articles in the DCM group on fb, and then just my own google research. There are two very conflicting sides.. and I still understand the dislike of corn. But I am also open minded.

However, the filler argument doesn't hold with me anymore. Filling a dog food with peas (which are cheaper than corn anymore) is not better than using corn. A filler, is a filler, is a filler. Peas were only used to be a binder/filler that upped the protein and so they could label things "grain free". Obviously it hasn't turned out well and isn't a great protein source for dogs being a plant anyway. But we each have to decide which "filler" we prefer to give our dogs. Right now, I prefer oats/barely etc and corn to peas/lentils and potatoes. Plant proteins and filler have been causing fertility issues in breeding dogs way before the DCM stuff came out. Which is also why I wouldn't touch a food with flax instead of fish oil.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Articles in the DCM group on fb, and then just my own google research. There are two very conflicting sides.. and I still understand the dislike of corn. But I am also open minded.
> 
> However, the filler argument doesn't hold with me anymore. Filling a dog food with peas (which are cheaper than corn anymore) is not better than using corn. A filler, is a filler, is a filler. Peas were only used to be a binder/filler that upped the protein and so they could label things "grain free". Obviously it hasn't turned out well and isn't a great protein source for dogs being a plant anyway. But we each have to decide which "filler" we prefer to give our dogs. Right now, I prefer oats/barely etc and corn to peas/lentils and potatoes. Plant proteins and filler have been causing fertility issues in breeding dogs way before the DCM stuff came out. Which is also why I wouldn't touch a food with flax instead of fish oil.


But peas and corn are not the only options. Rice/oats/barley will always be better than corn (at least corn gluten meal, and brewer's rice, which has a lot of nutrition removed). I just haven't seen any of the 'big 4' formulas that 1) have enough meat protein, 2) don't use corn gluten meal/brewers rice/wheat gluten. By all means, if there is one, let me know, and I'll switch. I just refuse to believe that a dog's diet should consist mainly of grain protein.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Francl27 said:


> But peas and corn are not the only options. Rice/oats/barley will always be better than corn (at least corn gluten meal, and brewer's rice, which has a lot of nutrition removed). I just haven't seen any of the 'big 4' formulas that 1) have enough meat protein, 2) don't use corn gluten meal/brewers rice/wheat gluten. By all means, if there is one, let me know, and I'll switch. I just refuse to believe that a dog's diet should consist mainly of grain protein.


Again, that is all arguable and what you choose to believe in the big debate. The Pro Plan/Eukanuba Sport formulas go up to 30% protein, but you do have to be okay with corn. The Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach is 26% with oats/barley etc. I don't actually like overly high protein for non super active dogs. Dogs shared our scraps forever. Not just meats but breads, rice etc. They can digest it fine, they are not wolves. That is all personal preference and you can choose to feed what you feel comfortable with. I gave "the big four" a chance and am honestly surprised with how happy I am with them. You don't have to believe the DCM stuff. But I do right now.

All kibble is eating fake food anyway. When I swept underneath fridge, I found years old pieces of kibble from EVERY brand I ever bought. None lost shape or had mold. Fromm, Wellness, Taste of the Wild, Acana. All I can ask is that the food has the correct balance of nutrients to keep them from things like completely preventable diet related heart disease and such. I'll add my own fresh foods if I feel they need them.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Again, that is all arguable and what you choose to believe in the big debate. The Pro Plan/Eukanuba Sport formulas go up to 30% protein, but you do have to be okay with corn. The Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach is 26% with oats/barley etc. I don't actually like overly high protein for non super active dogs. Dogs shared our scraps forever. Not just meats but breads, rice etc. They can digest it fine, they are not wolves. That is all personal preference and you can choose to feed what you feel comfortable with. I gave "the big four" a chance and am honestly surprised with how happy I am with them. You don't have to believe the DCM stuff. But I do right now.
> 
> All kibble is eating fake food anyway. When I swept underneath fridge, I found years old pieces of kibble from EVERY brand I ever bought. None lost shape or had mold. Fromm, Wellness, Taste of the Wild, Acana. All I can ask is that the food has the correct balance of nutrients to keep them from things like completely preventable diet related heart disease and such. I'll add my own fresh foods if I feel they need them.


Well it's not about high protein for me, it's about the source of protein. Meat is complete protein, grain is not, that's why I'm more comfortable feeding a food that has some meat meal (and not just "chicken" or whatnot, as it's 70% water) as a first ingredient.
It's what is super annoying in this debate - I can't find any answers to my questions, lol.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Here's some science based info on starch (grains mostly) digestion by dogs.
First article is user friendly, second is science jargon heavy covering a more extensive research study.
Short answer is that dogs evolved alongside people, eating a variety of stuff just like people and their genes show it.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/01/diet-shaped-dog-domestication

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4749313/
"We propose a model in which starch-rich diets predominated among most dogs after AMY2B expansion and before migration and differentiation of high- and low-starch breeds, coinciding with local starch consumption by humans. In turn, high starch consumption created positive selective pressure that likely acted on standing variation in AMY2B CNV to increase copy number species-wide."

IMO, many of the negatives like poor coat and dry skin that people attribute to grains and especially to corn are actually due to low fat content in food and exacerbated by the cheapest foods having added sugar and artificial color etc. But that is totally observational and not based on any specific science/study/research data.


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## planete (Dec 3, 2018)

The DCM scare has made me look again at what I feed my dogs, yes. Bearing in mind that there is also a strong link between human disease and over-processed food, I decided not to go with the very over-processed Big Four products but to try and go back to basics, like Laurelsmom. At least four or five varieties of raw meats (60% of the diet) to have as broad a range of nutrients as possible with bone and offal (80/10/10), cooked carbs (30%) which my dogs seem to need, some vegetables (10%) lightly steamed. The carbs will be rice and naked oats and some sweet potato.

I am still at the stage of getting organised as it is a bit of a logistical problem, shopping and time wise, and I have tried to do as much research as possible. I have worked out the cost will be roughly the same as high end complete kibble. I am by-passing the calcium phosphorus potential pitfalls I hope by feeding the various meats with bone in their raw state. Gauging the fat content is going to have to be trial and error though by watching the dogs condition.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Shell said:


> Here's some science based info on starch (grains mostly) digestion by dogs.
> First article is user friendly, second is science jargon heavy covering a more extensive research study.
> Short answer is that dogs evolved alongside people, eating a variety of stuff just like people and their genes show it.
> 
> ...


My observations have been similar in my many different food changes. I thought it was grain free -- but in the end found it to be more about fat/protein. I also noticed that foods with fish oil (as opposed to flax) and brewers dried yeast really help that coat. Even PPSSS with lower fat/protein has my dogs looking good. A lot of dogs have switched to that specific formula and have noticed nice coats, too.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks for your input on Farmina! Brae's poop has not been great lately (all other conditions, great). Formed but very soft, and the second poop of the day will be unformed. His stool was better on Victor, I admit. But I am currently doing 50/50 Go! and Farmina Pumpkin. I have a Farmina Prime waiting in the wings and I will also order an Ancient Grains one. I think Brae's stool does not form well with pea so I want to try other fillers. But as it stands, he is FINE so I am still pushing through and finishing bags of what I have.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Canyx said:


> Thanks for your input on Farmina! Brae's poop has not been great lately (all other conditions, great). Formed but very soft, and the second poop of the day will be unformed. His stool was better on Victor, I admit. But I am currently doing 50/50 Go! and Farmina Pumpkin. I have a Farmina Prime waiting in the wings and I will also order an Ancient Grains one. I think Brae's stool does not form well with pea so I want to try other fillers. But as it stands, he is FINE so I am still pushing through and finishing bags of what I have.


I tried Farmina (I really wanted to like it) but it gave my dogs soft stools. Nothing terrible, but definitely not right either. I even tried adding probiotics daily & it made no difference. So, no more Farmina for my crew.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks for your insight BKay! Yeah, I'm at the point where I'm unsure if it's Go! or Farmina. I suppose I can stagger the amounts and see if it makes a difference. But Brae was (sometimes) like this on Orijen too. That plus the possibility of them selling to Purina made me switch to Victor. Victor used millet. But Orijen uses pea too. And Go! has potatos and peas. So I think it could be pea.


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## iim7v7im7 (Feb 1, 2010)

Yes, we have. 

We are long time Orijen customers. We have fed our 9-1/2 year old Australian Shepherd started on their puppy formulation and has eaten their adult, regional red and senior formulations. After reviewing the 13 Australian Shepherd DCM cases, we decided until the root cause is determined to avoid legume (peas, lentils, chickpeas etc.) and tuber (cassava, potato, sweet potato etc.) inclusive formulations. We have also noticed intermittent changes in our dog’s digestion since Orijen moved from their British Columbia plant to their US plant in 2016.

We found some grain inclusive dry foods that look like good options to try from four different companies:

1) Annamaet
2) Dr. Gary’s Best Breed
3) Dr. Tim’s
4) Farmina

We are piloting trying a number of these before settling on a rotation of 3-4 foods. We have initially transitioned from Orijen to Farmina N&D Ancestral Grains Chicken & Pomegranate. We transitioned slowly across 6 days. So far, so good. We will watch for general energy, coat health, signs of allergy, stool quality and his general eagerness to eat it.

These are the 5 foods (below) that we will try over the next 3 months. They are all lower in protein than Orijen which was about 38% (24% - 30%). They are all produced by smaller companies with a background in veterinary nutrition, all report their ash content and have good ingredients. We will buy small 5 lb. bags at first which is 8-10 days of for our dog to try each out.

Annamaet - Option Formula
http://www.annamaet.com/products/Option_Formula
24% Protein / 13% Fat / 04% Fiber / 10% Moisture / 7.5% Ash / 41.5% Carbohydrate - 414 kcal/cup

Ingredients > 1%:
Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Rolled Oats, Lamb Meal, Pearled Barley, Canola Oil, Menhaden Fish Meal, Menhaden Oil, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Apples, Natural Flavor, Dried Chicory Root, Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Marine Microalgae, Salt.

Dr. Gary’s Best Breed - Lamb Meal with Fruits and Vegetables 
https://www.bestbreed.com/product_detail/lamb-meal-with-fruits-vegetables/
26% Protein / 15% Fat / 04% Fiber / 10% Moisture / 6.9% Ash / 38.1% Carbohydrate - 468 kcal/cup

Ingredients > 1%:
Lamb Meal, White Fish Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Canola Oil, Egg Product, Carrots, Celery, Beets, Parsley, Lettuce, Water Crest, Spinach, Natural Flavor, Lecithin, Calcium Carbonate, Kelp Meal, New Zealand Green Mussel, Cranberries, Blueberries, Salt.

Dr. Tim’s - Kinesis
https://drtims.com/collections/food/products/kinesis
26% Protein / 16% Fat / 03% Fiber / 10% Moisture / 07% Ash / 38% Carbohydrate - 413 kcal/cup

Ingredients > 1%
Chicken meal, brown rice, pearled barley, whole oat groats, chicken fat, dried plain beet pulp, dried egg product, rice bran, ocean herring meal, catfish meal, ground whole flaxseed meal, chicken liver meal, dried porcine plasma, salmon meal, menhaden fish oil, dried carrots, dried celery, dried beets, dried parsley, dried lettuce, dried watercress, dried spinach, salt.

Farmina - N&D Ancestral Grain Chicken & Pomegranate Mini
https://www.farmina.com/us/dog-food...hicken-&-pomegranate-adult-medium-&-maxi.html
30% Protein / 18% Fat / 2.9% Fiber / 9.0% Moisture / 8.2% Ash / 33% Carbohydrate - 400 kcal/cup

Ingredients > 1%
boneless chicken, dehydrated chicken, whole spelt, whole oats, chicken fat, dried whole eggs, herring, dehydrated herring, dried beet pulp, herring oil, dried carrot, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin, fructooligosaccharide, yeast extract, dried pomegranate, dried apple, dried spinach, psyllium seed husk, dried sweet orange, dried blueberry, salt.

Farmina - N&D Ancestral Grain Lamb & Blueberry Mini
https://www.farmina.com/us/dog-food/n&d-ancestral-grain-canine/119-lamb-&-blueberry-adult-mini.html
28% Protein / 18% Fat / 2.9% Fiber / 9.0% Moisture / 8.2% Ash / 35% Carbohydrate - 395 kcal/cup

Ingredients > 1%:
lamb, dehydrated lamb, whole spelt, whole oats, dried whole eggs, herring, dehydrated herring, chicken fat, herring oil, dried beet pulp, dried carrot, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin, fructooligosaccharide, yeast extract, dried blueberry, dried apple, dried pomegranate, dried sweet orange, dried spinach, psyllium seed husk, salt.


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## NadiaK (Feb 8, 2017)

iim7v7im7 thank you so much for posting those links. I was not familiar with Dr Gary's. Looks like a great choice. Someone pointed out on another forum that alfalfa that is in Farmina is a legume. I was not aware of that. It is quite far down the ingredient list however.


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## iim7v7im7 (Feb 1, 2010)

Thanks much for pointing that out! It is ingredient #12 by weight pre-cooking. After it is cooked, I suspect its proportion is higher. They likely use it as a less expensive bulking agent that boost the protein content a bit. I will consider this moving forward.



NadiaK said:


> iim7v7im7 thank you so much for posting those links. I was not familiar with Dr Gary's. Looks like a great choice. Someone pointed out on another forum that alfalfa that is in Farmina is a legume. I was not aware of that. It is quite far down the ingredient list however.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Nope, haven't changed what I'm feeding. I'm not a vet, but I am an epidemiologist which puts me in a unique position to evaluate the research - including assess the methods for potential biases (and there are a lot of them) - myself. Putting aside the fact that there have been ~700 reported cases in 18 months out of 9 million dogs, there's still way too many confounding factors that have not been taken into account for me to put work into changing my dog's food, especially since one of them gets nothing but diarrhea on foods with oats, which is common in grain-inclusive foods. 

My dogs are also all low-risk for taurine-deficiency, diet aside. They're not breeds in which DCM is common and that haven't been implicated in the breed-related taurine-deficiency trend that is arising, they are small body size, and get fresh foods in addition to kibble. If I had giant dogs, or goldens or cockers, I'd consider switching more heavily, but as it stands, I'll take the estimated low risk of DCM over the very high and immediate risk of dealing with diarrhea every day.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Thanks for your insight BKay! Yeah, I'm at the point where I'm unsure if it's Go! or Farmina. I suppose I can stagger the amounts and see if it makes a difference. But Brae was (sometimes) like this on Orijen too. That plus the possibility of them selling to Purina made me switch to Victor. Victor used millet. But Orijen uses pea too. And Go! has potatos and peas. So I think it could be pea.


Even though Nestle keeps approaching Champion with offers, Champion outright states that they have no intention of selling (to anyone). https://www.championpetfoods.com/fa...AgE7brpluXxxf7VU4GLvRTdqgMmS3NvHByd-DOMoL-8AE


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm giving Purina Pro Plan a go for the pup. Considering he eats his own weight in kibble daily, I certainly don't mind the excuse to switch to a more affordable food, lol.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> Even though Nestle keeps approaching Champion with offers, Champion outright states that they have no intention of selling (to anyone). https://www.championpetfoods.com/fa...AgE7brpluXxxf7VU4GLvRTdqgMmS3NvHByd-DOMoL-8AE


Yeah, I learned that a while ago. Brae had better stool on Victor than on Orijen so I just never went back.


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## Sanne (Jan 21, 2019)

I personally have not changed. My food choice often changes as I am not very brand loyal, but I currently feed Fish4Dogs and have fed it a lot throughout my dog's lives. I am not too concerned about DCM because this brand is hugely popular in most countries here in Europe and they have been making this food for over a decade. So far, there has not been a single case of nutrition DCM on this food. I feel if this food were a problem, there would definitely be some known issues by now considering its popularity. I also do not think it's as simply as avoiding peas/legumes considering some dogs have popped up with DCM on grain inclusive foods...


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

parus said:


> I'm giving Purina Pro Plan a go for the pup. Considering he eats his own weight in kibble daily, I certainly don't mind the excuse to switch to a more affordable food, lol.


Lol, is it though? I found one formula I'm comfortable giving to my dogs (Bright Mind) because it has more meat (chicken and by-products in the first 3 ingredients, as opposed to just chicken). It's $52 for a 30lb bag!!! And not sold at my local store so I can't get reward points or buy it on sale.. Anyway, I bought one, and I'll switch to it when their current bags are gone (we just started). I'm absolutely not excited about this, however, because I feel like I'm giving them lesser quality food for basically the same price.

But yes, I do worry about DCM... but I'm also wondering about other health issues frankly.


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## LeoRose (Aug 20, 2015)

For several reasons, I switched my two to Purina ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach Salmon and Rice back in March. So far, so good. A 16 pound bag is just over $36 on Chewy, and lasts roughly three weeks. At 55 pounds, Leo eats two cups a day, and at 35 pounds, Lily eats 1.5 cups a day.


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## Quinsation (Aug 1, 2017)

I have changed what I feed recently.
My vet posted a like to FDA findings on DCM. They listed 16 brands that have been linked to DCM.
I took all the 4 and 5 star rated grain free foods I found from Dog Food Advisor. From that list, I deleted the 16 brands from the FDA list, along with all brands not available from Chewy.com (I live on an island and have my food shipped)
From there, I went thru the ingredient list and deleted anything with peas, lentils, potatoes/sweet potatoes, chickpeas, legumes, etc. as one of the first 5 or 6 ingredients.
That left me with 5 to choose from. 
From those 5, I choose Kinetic Performance 26, because I know other people who feed that and have been happy with it.


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## Quinsation (Aug 1, 2017)

LeoRose said:


> For several reasons, I switched my two to Purina ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach Salmon and Rice back in March. So far, so good. A 16 pound bag is just over $36 on Chewy, and lasts roughly three weeks. At 55 pounds, Leo eats two cups a day, and at 35 pounds, Lily eats 1.5 cups a day.


Have you thought about getting the 30lb bags? There is a large price drop from the 16 to the 30. ($2.29/lb to $1.52/lb)


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

Quinsation said:


> Have you thought about getting the 30lb bags? There is a large price drop from the 16 to the 30. ($2.29/lb to $1.52/lb)


I personally always buy the biggest bags I can find because it's cheaper.


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## Quinsation (Aug 1, 2017)

Francl27 said:


> I personally always buy the biggest bags I can find because it's cheaper.


That's what I do as well. (but I also check prices to make sure that's the case)
Feeding 4 large-ish dogs, I got thru a bag pretty quickly.


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## Patchy & Sue (Jul 3, 2019)

There's NO evidence diet caused DCM with these dogs, & under 600 dogs since Jan 2014 that's not many dogs especially when US has around 78 million dogs, you'd think the amount of dogs would be much higher.
I've been feeding G/F & rotating Wellness Core, Wellness Simple, Canidae Pure Meadow, Pure Wild & a few other grain free kibbles over 4 yrs cause my boy has IBD & doesn't do well on grains, he does really well on potato kibbles & he's fine, he can't eat lentils causes diarrhea & chickpeas cause gas.. 
Might have been a blessing in disguise.
In Australia we have no cases of DCM neither does Europe.. I think this DCM has been blown up cause why is it just happening USA?? 
Just don't fed the same brand of kibble month after month, rotate & change kibble brands & add fresh whole foods to dogs diet, tin sardines, tin salmon, fresh egg, veggies, fresh meats + organ meat, mussels


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

You know, I was wondering about the situation in other countries too. It's very odd that it doesn't seem to be a problem there.

I know a lot of people don't like this site, but there's an interesting bit here https://truthaboutpetfood.com/no-grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease-in-europe-why/

The problem with DCM is that we really don't know exactly how people are feeding their dog too. If they get too many toppings or treats or whatnot, they often get less food, which means less important nutrients as well. And, as the article says, a lot of people feed less than what the package says (because they would get fat!), so dogs get less nutrients as a result. It would be very useful information if people whose dog had DCM mentioned how much food the dogs were eating and if they added anything to their food.

Anyway, another good article I found that shows the risk of legumes

https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2018/02/08/grain-free-diets-and-dcm/


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## LeoRose (Aug 20, 2015)

Quinsation said:


> Have you thought about getting the 30lb bags? There is a large price drop from the 16 to the 30. ($2.29/lb to $1.52/lb)


I'd then have to find a place to put said 30 pound bag. The convenience of the smaller bags is more important than the cost savings of the larger bags when you have limited storage space.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

You know, I was just thinking about something... in Europe, most dogs are not neutered. I wonder if it has a correlation? I mean, less likely to get overweight, so more likely to eat the recommended amounts too...


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## iim7v7im7 (Feb 1, 2010)

The issue that I have with the inference that you are making with the inference that is being made about the potential observed rate of diet induced DCM is the assumption that the 515 case reports (numerator) in the FDA update were from the total estimated dog population of USA (87,000,000 last I looked). This is an observed rate (no upper confidence interval around this) of 1 in 169,000 dogs (> 10-6, extremely remote occurrence rate). 

The issue I have with this is only a small portion of the dog population is fed grain free foods. Pedigree and Purina Dog Chow (and others) are fed to many more dogs than these more expensive, grain free kibbles. For example, in the US the number of dogs being fed Acana is < 100,000 than 87,000,000 and the reported incidence rate was 67 dogs. A more realistic rate estimate is more like 1 in 1,200 (> 10-3 or moderate risk). This is still a relatively low rate, but is much higher than what people are stating.

Yes, some reports are incomplete, confounded with genetic disposition and comorbidities, but there is an unusual, unexplained signal here. No, the exact root cause is not yet understood but until it is, people willing to continue feeding their dogs are not crazy (just believe that the benefits outweigh the risks) nor are owners who want to avoid the risk until it is better understood. This will be understood in the next year or two. There are controlled studies ongoing that may explain this.

I agree that rotating foods between differing protein sources, formulations and manufacturers is a good risk reducing practice. Supplementation as you suggest can also further reduce the risk. I fall into the camp that believe that the risks outweigh the benefits. There are 13 Australian Shepherd case reports (my dog breed) with dogs as young as 2 with DCM on grain free diets. Until the root cause is identified, I have chosen to move from my grain free food (Orijen) to a rotation of legume/tuber free formulations. If one spends some time and looks, one can find a good rotation from reputable manufacturers.



Patchy & Sue said:


> There's NO evidence diet caused DCM with these dogs, & under 600 dogs since Jan 2014 that's not many dogs especially when US has around 78 million dogs, you'd think the amount of dogs would be much higher.
> I've been feeding G/F & rotating Wellness Core, Wellness Simple, Canidae Pure Meadow, Pure Wild & a few other grain free kibbles over 4 yrs cause my boy has IBD & doesn't do well on grains, he does really well on potato kibbles & he's fine, he can't eat lentils causes diarrhea & chickpeas cause gas..
> Might have been a blessing in disguise.
> In Australia we have no cases of DCM neither does Europe.. I think this DCM has been blown up cause why is it just happening USA??
> Just don't fed the same brand of kibble month after month, rotate & change kibble brands & add fresh whole foods to dogs diet, tin sardines, tin salmon, fresh egg, veggies, fresh meats + organ meat, mussels


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

If there was some real advantage to feeding grain-free, I'd have to weigh that against the relatively low numbers of DCM. But since there's no solid reason for me to feed grain-free anyway, why not be better safe than sorry and go with a food/formulation that hasn't been implicated?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Francl27 said:


> I found one formula I'm comfortable giving to my dogs (Bright Mind) because it has more meat (chicken and by-products in the first 3 ingredients, as opposed to just chicken).


I don't really worry about the "first three ingredients" thing. First ingredient, sure. But the percentages are the key thing, IMO. Like, my water's second listed ingredient is trace minerals, but it's still 99+ percent water.


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## LeoRose (Aug 20, 2015)

parus said:


> I don't really worry about the "first three ingredients" thing. First ingredient, sure. But the percentages are the key thing, IMO. Like, my water's second listed ingredient is trace minerals, but it's still 99+ percent water.


Well, if the first three ingredients are "chicken, chicken meal, and rice", you have to take into account that the chicken is roughly 80% water, whereas chicken meal and rice contain a lot less moisture, so they are actually contributing more to the overall make up of the food than the chicken.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

LeoRose said:


> Well, if the first three ingredients are "chicken, chicken meal, and rice", you have to take into account that the chicken is roughly 80% water, whereas chicken meal and rice contain a lot less moisture, so they are actually contributing more to the overall make up of the food than the chicken.


Exactly this. Unfortunately, they don't tell us the percentages. You said this much better than I would have, lol.


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## iim7v7im7 (Feb 1, 2010)

Knowing the weights may not help as much as many think. For example, when you see ingredient #1 and it stated 30% boneless chicken w/w (weight on weight) and ingredient #2 is brown rice 15% w/w this represents when ingredients are weighed out pre-cooking. Post cooking the percentage are greatly different once 90% of the water leaves the formulation. The analysis after cooking it might be 7.5% boneless chicken and 7.5% brown rice for the same ingredients....Food for thought.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

Found this article today

https://www.crossfit.com/health/bad...y-OoW2pPrmw4jVnxN-hjPx1aR2qfylFAaJHZhmgX-Jcio

It's really infuriating. I'm so sick of not knowing who is right and who is wrong and that's it always about money and of people making me feel like a bad dog owner or bad person when I mention that there's no way that I would feed some foods because, for me, they just don't have enough meat, and that just because "they are recommended" doesn't mean that they are good foods (I mean... would people seriously feed Purina Dog Chow over some BEG diet because it's in the list of "recommended" pet food manufacturers?).

OF COURSE the vets who did the studies are partnered with the big 4's. Why in the world doesn't it seem to bother anyone? How can you expect it to be unbiased?


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## laurelsmom (Feb 13, 2019)

Francl27 said:


> FI'm so sick of not knowing who is right and who is wrong and that's it always about money and of people making me feel like a bad dog owner or bad person when I mention that there's no way that I would feed some foods because, for me, they just don't have enough meat, and that just because "they are recommended" doesn't mean that they are good foods (I mean... would people seriously feed Purina Dog Chow over some BEG diet because it's in the list of "recommended" pet food manufacturers?).
> 
> OF COURSE the vets who did the studies are partnered with the big 4's. Why in the world doesn't it seem to bother anyone? How can you expect it to be unbiased?


ITA; I don't even use kibble and this is just motivating me to learn more about canine nutrition and put their health above my squeamishness. There are vegan dog foods marketed to people like myself, who just like the idea of a "non-obligate carnivore" and don't want to be reminded that Precious Poochie Princess is actually a cold blooded killer of prey animals. Laurel eats and likes them and they are AAFCO formulated for all life stages. Sounds great (to veg*n me)in theory but how can that possibly be safer than Acana or Taste of the Wild? How can it possibly be unthinkably "bad" to stretch out prepared raw that is 90% meat, bones, and organs by adding a few spoonfuls or locally grown organic GMO-free quinoa instead of switching to Purina, Ol' Roy, or some other kibble with (moldy, unfit for human consumption)"cornmeal" as a first ingredient?

This:

https://littledogtips.com/do-small-...ry-about-the-link-between-grain-free-and-dcm/

makes sense to me because I am old enough to remember and know that we don't raise chickens the same way our grandparents did. If taurine is involved, and I'm not even sure we're sure it is, then it would make sense for a healthy, mature, family-farm raised chicken to have higher levels of taurine than whatever's cheap at the discount supermarket.

"Normal" isn't necessarily "better". I eat weird and my (human) family would LOVE to just put me on a strict diet of eggamuffins, whoppers, and Colonel McChicken to avoid the nuisance and embarassment.

Sorry 'bout that--I'd rather hike in the woods, climb trees in my bare feet, and dance in the rain with my weird food and weirdly fed dogs than go to chemo and dialysis with my nurse just like everybody else.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

laurelsmom said:


> ITA; I don't even use kibble and this is just motivating me to learn more about canine nutrition and put their health above my squeamishness. There are vegan dog foods marketed to people like myself, who just like the idea of a "non-obligate carnivore" and don't want to be reminded that Precious Poochie Princess is actually a cold blooded killer of prey animals. Laurel eats and likes them and they are AAFCO formulated for all life stages. Sounds great (to veg*n me)in theory but how can that possibly be safer than Acana or Taste of the Wild? How can it possibly be unthinkably "bad" to stretch out prepared raw that is 90% meat, bones, and organs by adding a few spoonfuls or locally grown organic GMO-free quinoa instead of switching to Purina, Ol' Roy, or some other kibble with (moldy, unfit for human consumption)"cornmeal" as a first ingredient?
> 
> This:
> 
> ...


That link totally focuses on taurine though - not all dogs diagnosed with DCM had low taurine, so I'm not sure that's even the culprit.

Found this too, from a board certified vet nutritionist

https://www.petfoodindustry.com/blo...stmsKPLMjKxGNiD2VXwwcPb2oMPDDbLxU_cne1AvCB-IM


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