# 1 yearold Westie off-leash outside impossible.



## rengh (Mar 12, 2010)

BEFORE EVERYONE JUMPS ON MY CASE ABOUT NOT BRINGING HER UP RIGHT.

I brought up my 6 year old MALTESE exactly the same way and she is the COMPLETE opposite of my WESTIE. My MALTESE pretty much has an invisible leash on when outside, she ALWAYS stays within 1 meter of me no matter how exciting the situation is for her.

SO FAR we have tried 3 different professional behaviourist and trainers (no, not teenagers working at petsmart, this actually cost me quite a lot of money so far)

Food means nothing to her outside, fresh steak,chicken,rawbones etc nothing works.

Age - 1 Year Old
Breed - West Highland Terrier.
Owned since - 10 weeks of age.
Sex - Female (desexed at 6 months)
Her father, mother and all her other litter mates do not have this problem.

She has several walks per day EVERY DAY without fail NO matter the weather.
She has never been crate trained. 
Never been tied up unless on leash on walk. 
She free roams house and backyard. 
She is outside the backyard 90% of the time sniffing and running around, pooping peeing etc. 
She comes inside to sleep or sleeps outside depending on what she chooses, 10:30PM every night without fail.
She also has an outdoor kennel in the backyard which she uses about 50% of the time.

Simply put my 1 year old desexed female westie will not listen outside AT ALL. She turns into a hunter/sniff machine when she is outside off the leash, she is okay on the leash, but once off - she's a different dog. The smallest things will keep her going and going and going and going. The only attention she'll show to a human outside off-leash is a human stranger or dog and that is only for a few seconds of sniffing then she'll move on to her next scent.


I am really over this all. We've tried so much and spent so much money trying to help it. I bought a lead that extends and retracts upto 5 meters. It's the closest she'll ever come to being off-leash outside ever again .


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Why do you need her to walk off-leash? Is your maltese an outdoor dog too?


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## ShutterBug (Jan 21, 2010)

Not being a long-time dog owner, maybe I'm missing something... why is it so important for her to be off leash? She gets off leash time to run around in your yard, so I don't understand why she needs to be allowed to be off leash when out and about? While I believe in the importance of a good recall command for any dog, I guess I just don't have the expectation that any dog should be able to roam around off leash just because. You can be fined here if your dog is off leash anywhere other than on private property (ie your yard) or in the fenced in dog park.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

The fact that the Maltese was "brought up" one way means absolutely nothing. You're talking about two totally different breeds here. Maltese are people-oriented companion dogs. West Highland White Terriers are just that, terriers. Independent thinkers, hunters, not you're little cuddly every day white dog.

There is nothing that says that a dog MUST be offleash on walks. First of all, having a dog that does not pay attention 100% of the time is a danger to both itself and other people/dogs. With a dog like this, it is likely that she will never be fully reliable offleash. That may have to do with individual personality, general breed traits, prey drive, scent drive, whatever - but there are times that it simply just cannot be broken out of a dog.

My dog is reliable offleash in controlled situations, but I choose not to let her offleash unless we are practicing or competing in agility. What I do is hook her on to a 20 foot cotton line (or I use my 50 foot line if we're totally alone and no one is around) so she can run around and sniff that way. I don't think her quality of life is affected in the least.


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## rengh (Mar 12, 2010)

I probably just want her off-leash so bad outside because my maltese has always been like that. Out of the thousands of walks ive taken my maltese on she has never stopped following me and always looks at where I am going. 100% follower. It's kind of weird having a dog that is only interested in you and nothing else while having another dog that is interested in everything else except you.


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## jinnyretr0 (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm going to have to agree with MissMutt. Having dealt with my dad's cairn terrer...its something that you may just have to get used to. He is the same way a "hunter/sniff machine". He's fine on a leash, but we'd never ever trust him off leash. His nose would take over and he'd be gone! Instincts are a funny thing aren't they?


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

I know what you mean. It's really a cool thing when you feel you can trust your dog 100% when they're off leash, and you kinda wish all your dogs/whatevers would do that, but some animals just shouldn't be off leash, ever, and that includes our hunting dogs, such as Westies, and hounds. Anything that could, at a moments notice, take off after that random cat or squirrel...

Just know that she's doing what she's supposed to do, as a dog of her breed, and keep her safe on a secure leash. =)


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## chrisn6104 (Jun 8, 2009)

Easy fix. Keep the dog on a leash.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

chrisn6104 said:


> Easy fix. Keep the dog on a leash.


I wouldn't have a dog that couldn't be trusted off leash. So I understand where the OP is coming from. 

Best bet if all other training methods have failed. A small dog remote training collar and a trainer experienced in their use training you how to use it.

It absolutely will work if used correctly. It absolutely will ruin your dog if used incorrectly.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> I wouldn't have a dog that couldn't be trusted off leash.


What's your reasoning behind this?

(I was just gonna ask "Why?" but that's too short a message, lol.)


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> What's your reasoning behind this?
> 
> (I was just gonna ask "Why?" but that's too short a message, lol.)


Because much of the enjoyment I get from my dog, and my dog gets from me, is our off leash adventures at the river. Swimming, hiking, etc. with Maggie. What a drag (literally) it would be to have to keep a second dog on a leash ruining my and Maggie's fun, or worse, leaving a poor dog at home.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

You've said you've had a bunch of trainers and behavourists, but what training have you done specifically?


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## Sonn84 (Mar 29, 2008)

2 of my dogs are never off leash. No matter how much training has been done they refuse to listen off leash. When I want to give them off leash playtime I take them to our local baseball field and they have a blast. Even when we hike they stay on their leads I just use long leads so they have a little more freedom.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I wouldn't have a dog that couldn't be trusted off leash. So I understand where the OP is coming from.


*cough* Then you (general) should do your research and pick a breed that historically does well offleash..


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

rengh said:


> I probably just want her off-leash so bad outside because my maltese has always been like that. Out of the thousands of walks ive taken my maltese on she has never stopped following me and always looks at where I am going. 100% follower. It's kind of weird having a dog that is only interested in you and nothing else while having another dog that is interested in everything else except you.


 
As MissMutt said, this isn't a Maltie, it's a Terreir, terriers MUST be on leash because when the nose is 'on' the ears are OFF. It's like the differance in my Dobe and my English Bulldog, the Dobe is a pleaser, easy to train and listens well, the EB wants things HIS way, is independent and has been hard to train (though he's coming along S-L-O-W-L-Y). 

Train recall on a 20 ft lunge line (available at most feed stores) and get the book *Really* *Reliable* *Recall*. Use super high value treats and you may even use a whistle (works well on the EB) as the high pitched sound will reach even turned off ears. YOu would charge the Whistle the same way you would a clicker .

This is an addition, can be used with any training

Charging a Whistle

1. Get a whistle

2. Charge the whistle. Cut up 60-80 scrumptious treats, small and easily swallowed. Get comfortable, Blow and treat thru all 60-80 treats. Try to get the treat to the dog within one second of the click or a short whistle. You only have to do this once, short bursts work best

For training treats, cheese, boiled or baked liver or hot dogs can all be used. 

The dog will associate the whistle with goodies and should come imediately, be sure to reward EVERY time the dog comes to you and when 99% recall is acheived start fading the treats. 

You still may not be able to walk the westie off leash, but having good recall COULD save his life.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

A lot of dogs get conditioned to see being let off leash as getting total freedom. Understandably, they get off leash and go nuts and it's a pain to get them back on, because that's losing their freedom.

In _Control Unleashed_ there's some excersizes done in a box made from ring gates. One of them is to work the dog (heel, puppy pushups, whatever keeps the dog engaged) on leash and randomly drop and pick up the leash. You want to make it a non-event. Leashes don't matter. As your dog gets the idea that leashes mean nothing, you can add clipping and unclipping the leash and start making the box bigger.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> *cough* Then you (general) should do your research and pick a breed that historically does well offleash..


Why wouldn't I? 

Are you coming down with a cold?

Lots of terriers do fine off-leash. Nothing like huskies or hounds.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Why wouldn't I?
> 
> Are you coming down with a cold?


I was responding to your statement, not to you.. hence the "(general you)" which perhaps you missed. 

If ability to be offleash is in your criteria, that is perfectly legitimate. But, what I am saying is, the difference is that you know that criteria and have chosen a breed that fits it. The same does not go for the OP. So, therefore, I don't really think the OP can be upset that his dog does not do well offleash.

I actually WASN'T criticizing you.. you really are quick to jump on people sometimes.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Lots of terriers do fine off-leash. Nothing like huskies or hounds


Some may do fine offleash, yes, but I don't really think they're the best choice for someone who makes it their priority that their dog should be an offleash dog. Would you choose a terrier breed as your potential offleash partner?


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> If ability to be offleash is in your criteria, that is perfectly legitimate. But, what I am saying is, the difference is that you know that criteria and have chosen a breed that fits it. The same does not go for the OP. So, therefore, I don't really think the OP can be upset that his dog does not do well offleash


This whole thread reminds me of its Bizarro-world counterpart.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

If terriers can not be trusted off leash, how were they ever useful as hunting dogs? On the continuum of difficult to recall dogs, terriers are middle of the pack. Dogs get out while you are bringing in the groceries, and whatnot, especially the small dogs who exist below your line of sight. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a Westie to come in when called.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> I wouldn't have a dog that couldn't be trusted off leash. So I understand where the OP is coming from.


So, what happens if you get a dog and it just can't be trusted offleash? All dogs are different, some just can't be trusted.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I taught Cracker (scent hound mix) to recall off prey USING the prey. I premacked it to death and she now has a really strong recall. It took work and thought and preparation and of course I had to know where the squirrels hung out..lol. The lady who wrote the Really Reliable Recall booklet (and the DVD which is really good) has a perfect recall on her afghan hounds...that in itself says a lot.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

InkedMarie said:


> So, what happens if you get a dog and it just can't be trusted offleash? All dogs are different, some just can't be trusted.


Some individual dogs may ultimately turn out to to be untrustworthy off leash, but I don't think it is correct to write off whole breeds and even groups as untrainable.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> If terriers can not be trusted off leash, how were they ever useful as hunting dogs? On the continuum of difficult to recall dogs, terriers are middle of the pack. Dogs get out while you are bringing in the groceries, and whatnot, especially the small dogs who exist below your line of sight. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a Westie to come in when called.


If sighthounds cannot be trusted off leash, how were _they_ useful as hunting dogs?

I think it's just a different ballgame.. asking a dog to be offleash to perform the job it has been bred to do over decades and centuries (and probably underwent a decent amount of training under the guide of someone very experienced, at that) and asking a dog to come in to a boring house after running around in an open field are two really different things IMO.

There are sighthounds that can be offleash. There are terriers that can be offleash. But I don't think you (again, general you) can sit here and be astonished when a breed like this has problems with its recall.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Some individual dogs may ultimately turn out to to be untrustworthy off leash, but I don't think it is correct to write off whole breeds and even groups as untrainable.


I don't really think any one is calling them untrainable. This is something that comes up a lot in the Northern breed threads. Northern breeds aren't untrainable.. they just operate differently and excel at some things but have problems with others. I think the same goes for this situation.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I'm going to suggest you get Jane Killion's book, "When Pigs Fly: Training Success with Impossible Dogs." http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=1359 Also check out her website: http://www.madcapbullterriers.com

From Dogwise.com:

Winner of The Merial Human Animal Bond Award 
Winner of the 2008 Indie Book Awards for Animals/Pets 
Winner of the IIACAB Award for 2007 Best Dog Book (Misc.)

Do you have an impossible dog? Think again. Most dogs have many characteristics that make them quiet trainable. Your dog is smart, a good problem solver and posesses a strong drive to get what he wants. Learn how to make your dog operant; a dog willing to seek out the correct behavior in return for a reward. You don't have to constantly feed your dog for good behavior. Learn how to use play and other activities as an effective reward. 

With the "Pigs Fly" Training System you will:
* Discover how dogs learn
* Learn to use the clicker
* Get your dog to offer to do things without being asked
* Learn how to use shaping
* Reinforcers - find out what gets your dog really excited
* Get your dog to pay attention to you
* How to play with your dog
* How to teach your dog behaviors 

The key to training success with difficult dogs is to figure out what they find rewarding and then to use those rewards to get the behaviors you want. You'll be amazed at what your "bad" dog will do when you know how he thinks and what turns him on! 

What reviewers are saying... 

APDT CHRONICLE OF THE DOG
*"When Pigs Fly! focuses on training dogs from the "non-biddable" breeds such as terriers and hounds.* Author Jane Killion uses her own Bull Terriers to illustrate how to work with "Pigs Fly" dogs… While this book is geared toward the average dog owner, there is plenty of excellent information and ideas for dog trainers who may find ideas for dog trainers who may find themselves challenged by clients’ dogs who fit this description… The book contains many photographs that provide step-by-step instructions on teaching behaviors, as well as shaping, types of equipment, and playing with your dog. I enjoyed the presentation in the photos of a variety of "non-traditional" breeds such as her Bull Terriers, as well as Pugs, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Basenjis, Beagles, and Newfoundlands. As a bully breed and mixed breed dog owner myself, I always appreciate "equal time" for dogs you don’t normally see in the training ring… I truly enjoyed this book and would recommend it to owners and trainers of any breed of dog." Mychelle Blake, MSW, CDBC 

SOCIETY OF VETERINARY BEHAVIOR TECHNICIANS
“I have had the recent pleasure of reading Jane Killion’s When Pigs Fly!. In her first book, Jane has constructed an admirable training manual appropriate not just for “impossible” dogs, but every dog and dog owner. An experience trainer inspired to new methods by her own dogs, a herd of Bull Terriers, Jane’s friendly, open style and succinct instruction will make this volume a valuable addition to any training library… Introducing the concept of training the Pigs Fly dog, Jane points out differences between “biddable” breeds such as most Herding dogs, and less biddable, more independent dogs such as Terriers and Hounds. She highlights one main difference, taking time to emphasize the fact that intelligence is not measure in cooperation with a handler, but in the ability to solve problems presented to the dog. Most biddable breeds learn quickly with direction from a handler, but don’t take the initiative to solve problems without directions at first. However, most Pigs Fly dogs excel at independent problem solving skills and are keen to attempt solutions without instructions for a handler. Jane proposes that the key to successful and cooperative training of a Pigs Fly dog is creating an operant dog. She goes into great detail but remains easily understood, explaining what makes a dog operant and why this helps every dog learn more quickly…I would highly recommend Jane’s book to any dog owner, not just Pigs Fly owners… From the first time dog owner to the seasoned instructor looking for new ideas, anyone can come away from reading When Pigs Fly! with a fresh perspective and energized to play. Monique Feyrecilde, LVT


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I taught Cracker (scent hound mix) to recall off prey USING the prey. I premacked it to death and she now has a really strong recall. It took work and thought and preparation and of course I had to know where the squirrels hung out..lol. The lady who wrote the Really Reliable Recall booklet (and the DVD which is really good) has a perfect recall on her afghan hounds...that in itself says a lot.


Thanks! I would love to have my shelties off leash while we are at the creek and the woods! this might help me.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

+1 for When Pigs Fly. Great book, and very accessible. It has the best introduction to clickers and shaping I've seen.



> I taught Cracker (scent hound mix) to recall off prey USING the prey. I premacked it to death and she now has a really strong recall. It took work and thought and preparation and of course I had to know where the squirrels hung out..lol. The lady who wrote the Really Reliable Recall booklet (and the DVD which is really good) has a perfect recall on her afghan hounds...that in itself says a lot.


Cracker, can you (and this may need to be a separate thread, kind of a big topic) go into a little more detail on using Premack? I have a hard time getting my dog to do Thing A (that I want him to do) so he can be released, rewarded, and reinforced by Thing B (that he wants to do) in the first place.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

I have one dog that has NO recall skills, and never will...one dog that has decent recall, but I still don't trust her..and another one who's recall is amazing...it all lies within the individual dog, IMO.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Cracker, can you (and this may need to be a separate thread, kind of a big topic) go into a little more detail on using Premack? I have a hard time getting my dog to do Thing A (that I want him to do) so he can be released, rewarded, and reinforced by Thing B (that he wants to do) in the first place.


I'm not her, but when I used (and still use) this one Wally, he just doesn't get Thing B. If he never does thing A - he don't get thing B. I don't care what it is. If it's bathroom - well he's just attached to me while he's feeling miserable LOL. Believe me, next time he did EXACTLY what he was supposed to so he could get relief!

For example, I wanted Wally to look at me to tell me he wants/needs to pee/poop when walking. This was so he doesn't wander into people's yards and drop a brick, etc. (Yes, I walk him off-leash, even when he was less stable than he is now). 

So first I would take him somewhere where I didn't care were he peed or pooped. When we looked like he was about to wonder off I'd make a noise, something just to get him to look at me. If that didn't work, I'd just get in his way, get that WTF look out of him, praise it and cue "go potty" (already learned prior).

Once that association is formed, I can require it. The high probability is him peeing - low is him looking at me.

If he goes to pee without looking, I stop him/get in his way. I keep it up until he looks at me. When he does, I let him pee. He WILL look at me even if to say "WTF", and I will block him until he does. He doesn't get what he wants (to pee) until I get what I want (looking at me). 

When I DON'T want him to pee, I don't acknowledge is eye contact. He chain is then broken so he's like WTF. He has stared a hole in my head if we're just passing by grass (other people's lawns) LOL, and sometimes he'll try to go pee at a "legal" area (he learned) - NOPE. You didn't look at me, come back here, bub! Ah, yeah, now you're looking. Go pee.

Another example with an already learned behavior - sitting by the door. He wants to go out of the open door (high), and I want him to sit and wait even with the door open (low). So I require the sitting (low) before going out (high). He don't sit. He don't go outz. He gets a face full of my shins and body blocked back to position.

Hopefully, all of this is using it right - but it's I guess my interpretation of it.


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