# Has anyone heard of puppylovekennelstn.com in Tennessee? Did I make a good choice??



## zephercan (May 4, 2011)

Hello...
First, thank you for taking the time to read this. 
I recently put a deposit on a Frenchton puppy via PayPal that is across the country in Tennessee. 
After I made the deposit on a puppy I did some research to make sure I wasn't being scammed. While searching I discovered the existence of puppy mills. To research... I talked to the owner and she was very nice and helpful. Their website is nicely configured and it is constantly updated as new litters come up. Anytime I email the owner she replies immediately. I called their Vet and found no bad criticism. 
So as you can see I have some research and everything seems to pan out, but lately I have been getting pressure to ask about their (county animal control licensing info)
Can I get that info without asking the owner for it? I have already contacted her a lot. Asked for her vets number etc. etc. I kinda feel weird asking her for that.
Ideally, it would be great to find someone that has already gotten a puppy from them.
They offered me references, but that doesn't reassure me because it could be the number of a coached family member.
Has anyone purchased a puppy from puppylovekennelstn in limestone, Tennessee ??
Oh yeah....(if the puppy doesn't show up or if he arrives sick)Can I get my money back since it was through PayPal???
Thanks again for reading this and any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks !!!!


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I have no problem with Frenchtons. I went to the kennel website and they don't have pictures of the parents up. I don't know why, but I always consider that a bad sign; like they have something to hide or something. Their dogs are nice looking, but have they done any health testing? French Bulldogs can have a TON of health problems and Boston Terriers have their own set.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

What and the heck is a Frenchton?


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

It's a French Bulldog crossed with a Boston Terrier. They usually look a lot like French Bulldogs and cost a lot less.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't have to read anything more than the name of the website to know that no, you did not make a good choice.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Inga said:


> What and the heck is a Frenchton?


 $600-$900 + shipping.

Oh, and it's Boston Terrier/French Bulldog.



> I kinda feel weird asking her for that.


 Pretend you're buying a car and asking for the CarFax.


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

Honestly they don't sound like a reputable breeder, I would not get a puppy from them. It doesn't appear that they do any kind of health testing on the parents (this is different than having yearly vet exams/shots, it is testing for genetic health problems), this is big red flag and you don't want a puppy from untested parents if you want a healthy puppy. Usually breeders of designer mixed breeds are not good breeders and do not health test. Also they seem to breed for off standard colors with their boston terriers which is another red flag, no good breeder is going to breed dogs that won't better the breed. 

If I were you I would see about getting your money back and finding a better breeder.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I believe you have made a very poor choice. They do not look like a reputable breeder in the slightest.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I will never be able to wrap my mind around paying big bucks for a mixed breed. I guess if that is what a person wants, go for it. As far as websites go... I wouldn't buy from them.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Health testing is different from regular vet checks. Health testing looks at the genetic profile of the dog to determine what it might be at risk for or what diseases it might pass on to puppies. This is commonly done by sending samples or x-rays to universities or laboratories. If someone tells you their local vet took care of all of that, they are almost certainly confused about what health testing is, or lying to you.

She is sending puppies out at six weeks, MUCH too young. 8 weeks is the minimum, and it's very common for small breeds to be kept with the litter even longer to 10 or 12 weeks. 

They have at least two litters on the ground at once, and I suspect they might have more. Always having puppies available for instant purchase (even if they have to grow up a few more weeks) is a sign of someone who is breeding for money, not the dogs. It simply costs too much money, time, and resources to breed healthy dogs to regularly have more than one litter at a time, especially if they have multiple litters available all year long. It can also be very hard on the bitches to whelp so much, but since we have no idea what the girls look like or how many there are, there's no way to know.

On the Boston Terrier puppy page, there is a quote from the Continental Kennel Club, which is not a reputable organization.

They are breeding non-standard colored Boston Terriers. That means they are breeding for unusual colors, and (if my genetics are right, which is no guarantee) have probably mixed breeds to get those colors. Mixing breeds is not in and of itself and evil thing, but it is when you're being told you're getting a purebred or when color is the only motivating factor.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> She is sending puppies out at six week, MUCH too young. 8 weeks is the minimum, and it's very common for small breeds to be kept with the litter even longer to 10 or 12 weeks.


I missed that part. 6 weeks is WAY too young for a puppy to be taken from its mom and littermates. Puppies purchased that young usually have behavior problems as adults like poor social skills and bite inhibition. In some places it isn't even legal to sell a puppy younger than 8 weeks. I think 10 weeks is ideal. Deposits are almost always non-refundable. I personally would accept the loss and move on to a better breeder. It's not good that you put down a deposit and THEN started doing your research.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It's not good that you put down a deposit and THEN started doing your research.


Perhaps not, but better now than not at all.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

zephercan said:


> Hello...
> First, thank you for taking the time to read this.
> I recently put a deposit on a Frenchton puppy via PayPal that is across the country in Tennessee.
> After I made the deposit on a puppy I did some research to make sure I wasn't being scammed. While searching I discovered the existence of puppy mills. To research... I talked to the owner and she was very nice and helpful. Their website is nicely configured and it is constantly updated as new litters come up. Anytime I email the owner she replies immediately. I called their Vet and found no bad criticism.
> ...


Not sure why you would want to pay that much for a little mixed breed. What sort of health testing has the breeder done? Frenchies are breed wtih a lot of health issues. Just mixing breeds doesn't do away with that. Personally, I would not want to get a puppy on line by way of paypal. I want to know pedigrees, know what the parent dogs have accomplished, know what their health status is. Stuff like that.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

luvntzus said:


> It's a French Bulldog crossed with a Boston Terrier. They usually look a lot like French Bulldogs and cost a lot less.


Why do they usually cost less? Are they being bred any differently than a Boston or a Frenchie?


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

They cost less because they aren't purebred.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> They cost less because they aren't purebred.


There are TONS of mixed breeds that cost just as much, if not more than purebreds. I don't think it's an issue of them not being purebred.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

French Bulldog puppies usually sell for about $2,500 and Frenchtons for about $1000-1500. These are breeders that sell both Frenchies and Frenchtons. So yes, in this case it is because they aren't purebred.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I'm sorry, but yes you've made a mistake. These folks are "fancy" puppy millers. Like mentioned before, having that many puppies available at any one time reeks of overbreeding their dogs, they send the puppies out WAY too young (especially if being shipped...right in the midst of their first fear period) and are breeding for colour. All big red flags of a disreputable breeder.

http://dogs.about.com/cs/generalcare/a/breeder_flags.htm


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

luvntzus said:


> They cost less because they aren't purebred.


 Um.. just so you know my APBT puppy that is purebred, from amazing lines, with genetic heath testing, and from a breeder which I can talk to, be friends with and have met (or will be meeting) Depending on the breeder I choose (theres 3 in the running) I'm looking at FREE show quality dog to about $500... Just depends on what litter has what I'm looking for in a puppy. I won't find out until fall on which breeding takes, and where I'll get a puppy from. It's been about a year of research and I STILL haven't decided for sure if these breeders are what I want. 

To the original poster: RRRRUUUUUUUNNNNNNN! See if Pay pal will be willing to refund you the money and run, FAST. I's bet money that they are a puppy mill. NEVER BUY A MIXED BREED DOG FROM A BREEDER! Breeders who do all the right things will NOT breed 2 different breeds of dogs. I can't say that, there is only 1% of breeder that breed mix breed dogs that does it correctly. and 1% might be on the high side. 

Let us help you out. Tell us what your looking for in a dog and we may be able to find you a dog that is what you want. We can point you to good breeders or even maybe a rescue in your area that has the type of dog your looking for. We are MORE then willing to help you find the dog of your dreams if you'd like. You have to be open minded though and listen to us.

Let us know if you want some help with things!
DM


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> Um.. just so you know my APBT puppy that is purebred, from amazing lines, with genetic heath testing, and from a breeder which I can talk to, be friends with and have met (or will be meeting) Depending on the breeder I choose (theres 3 in the running) I'm looking at FREE show quality dog to about $500...


That's great that you can get those purebreds for such a low price, although I have no idea what that has to do with this thread. Are you questioning the price of French Bulldogs? I don't make the prices, I'm just telling you what I've seen. lol


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Is it because Bostons cost less? I can't imagine a designer mix costing less than BOTH parent breeds. People sell Labradoodles for twice as much as they could get for a Poodle and 3-4 times as much as they could get for a Lab.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

animalcraker said:


> Why do they usually cost less? Are they being bred any differently than a Boston or a Frenchie?


As far as the higher priced 'harder to acquire' small breeds go, you will notice if you go to any of the puppy sales lists/sites, that it is most often the purebred dogs that sell for the greatest amount of money from those that are into promoting and selling their dogs as a product. "AKC" registration and pedigree particularly has a higher value . . . probably because then these pups can be seen as having potential to make $$ back for some buyers.

I've seen "CH lined/sired" Cavalier King Charles pups sold for as high as $5000 (and I know a naive retiree on a fixed income who paid that and a year later paid more than that again for his SM diagnoses/surgery). Cavalier mixes are always much less. The same is true of French Bulldogs vs their mixes that I have seen.

This of course is not the same as buying these purebreds from a smaller scale breeder where priced greatly range (many of these breeds are still very high priced anyway depending on where you live). Those breeders are so rare and hard to find, though, that often it is these promoters that buyers first find on the net. Some are pretty slick.

SOB


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Pretty much any time you see a mixed breed puppy coming from a breeder it is going to be a backyard desiger dog breeder who is not doing it well at all.

One exception...

I got my mutt pup from a breeder but she did not breed the dog. Brady came from a litter that was placed by a rescue before he was born because the litter was destined for an animal shelter (probably an accidental breeding). I've no idea of Brady's parents' medical pasts, so I'm taking a risk there :\ I don't regret it though. I paid $150 to the rescue for him and he was in perfect health when I got him. I would do that again with this particular organization, but not from someone who actually bred the mutts.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

luvntzus said:


> That's great that you can get those purebreds for such a low price, although I have no idea what that has to do with this thread. Are you questioning the price of French Bulldogs? I don't make the prices, I'm just telling you what I've seen. lol


Because your saying Mutts cost less then Purebreds, and I'm telling you no they don't. Bulldogs cost up around $2000 because it's HARD to get them to breed. Most need AI's to breed. Bostons aren't a breed that you can normally easily find in BYBer land. Doesn't mean I can't go out and find a high quality Bulldog for free, or even a Boston for free. I'd be paying for it in other ways (VIA health testing, showing cost and other things) but Price doesn't always have anything to do with what others are selling it for. BYBers and Puppy Mills really make the prices. Good breeders sell off of what it cost normally to do the breeding. Stud cost + health testing + puppy Vacs and other odds and ends.

I was simply putting the facts out there. Mutts aren't always cheaper then purebreds in fact they are often MORE. Why? Because people are willng to pay more for something they don't know the full truth about.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Is it because Bostons cost less? I can't imagine a designer mix costing less than BOTH parent breeds. People sell Labradoodles for twice as much as they could get for a Poodle and 3-4 times as much as they could get for a Lab.


Exactly! How would it make any sense for the "breeder" to breed mutts and make less money? Why wouldn't they breed purebred dogs and make more? I mean, a French Bulldog and a Boston? I don't see how that mix even makes sense. I think if you research more you would be able to find a purebred in that same price point. Pet quality pups in that price point I have seen many times. You might not be able to order them through the mail right away, you might have to put your name on a list and wait a few months but to me, it would be worth it. If not for the purebred, at least you wouldn't be supporting someone with less then ethical breeding practices. I have seen many many Boston puppies for less then that also.

Here are a couple places that might help with your research. http://frenchbulldogclub.org/about-frenchies/breeder-directory 

http://www.bostonterrierclubofamerica.org/about-boston-terriers/boston-terrier-breeder-referral.htm That of course, is just a starting point.


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## zephercan (May 4, 2011)

Oh my God !!! I understand I should have done more researched before I payed the down deposit. I certainly own the the situation I'm in. I was sooo focused on trying to avoid all the puppy dog scams that I missed the puppy mill problem.
OK, here's the deal.... I have cancer and believe that having a friend/dog will improve my condition. I have been looking for almost three months now. At this point I have a sense of urgency for my new friend/puppy. On top of all that I just found out that my Mother has Alzheimer's which is beyond devastating for me. I'm at my wits end here. Feeling really discouraged.
Everyone has been so helpful here.....thank you all !!! 
Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should do next? I sent a 300 deposit which is a lot of money to me. (takes me a month to save 300) Should I just cut my loses and start from the beginning? If I go through with the deal what are my chances of getting a healthy puppy from them?? 
I really have my heart set on a Frenchton. After research a Frenchton seems like the perfect dog for my situation. 
Does anyone possibly know where to get a healthy frenchton for under 1000 that would be available more sooner than later???
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks !!
P.S. Last time I mentioned having cancer I received a lot of concern about what will happen to my dog if something should happen to me. For those that are concerned...I have a loving family that will take him if something should happen.(which it wont)
Thanks again !!

Oh yeah.... To clear up any confusion....a Frenchton is not a purebred. It is half French Bulldog and half Boston Terrier. Seems difficult to find a Frenchton under 1000, but they are significantly cheaper than a french bulldog plus there aren't the health issues that can come with purebreds especially french bulldog purebreds due to their respiratory problems.
Thanks again


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

What about a Frenchie/Boston mix appeals to you? What makes one different from either a Frenchie or a Boston? It really is hard to find a good responsible breeder of a mix, so that could be difficult. Maybe someone who's familiar with the breeds (I'm not!) will have more input, but usually mixed breeds aren't as consistent in temperment as purebreeds. Like, one Frenchie/Boston mix could be veryvery different from another Frenchie/Boston mix, whereas 2 Frenchies are more likely to be similar in temperment.

Also, have you met any dogs of this mix? I always think that people should meet a lot of different dogs of the breed (or mix) they want before actually getting one! They aren't always what they sound like on paper.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Inga said:


> I will never be able to wrap my mind around paying big bucks for a mixed breed. I guess if that is what a person wants, go for it. As far as websites go... I wouldn't buy from them.


I paid 1800 bucks for a Black and Tan Blue Tick Cross in 1987.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> Because your saying Mutts cost less then Purebreds, and I'm telling you no they don't. ... Mutts aren't always cheaper then purebreds in fact they are often MORE...


You can tell me whatever you want but, YES mutts usually are less expensive than purebreds. Some of the new "designer breeds" cost more that a purebred- like the Labradoodle. But that is the exception to the rule.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

While Xeph is correct, better now than later I can't imagining putting down a deposit THEN doing the research. Would you do that with a car? Would you put down a deposit, get the financing all set, sign the papers then take it out for a test drive? I can't imagine spending that much on what is essentially a mutt. Not a thing wrong with that but you can get a well bred puppy, with health clearances and the necessary testing done, for the same money, give or take. I personally would cut my losses with the $300.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

Where are you located? You can put in your zipcode into petfinder and fill in either boston terrier or french bulldog. When I put those in with my zipcode I found a boston terrier rescue and a french bulldog rescue right near me! Seems like if I wanted either of those breeds, it would be pretty easy. Maybe I'm just lucky.  A rescue would be much less expensive than a breeder. You probably could have gotten a dog for that $300 deposit you paid (or less). Hopefully you can get that back! Also, an adult dog usually is less work and less stress than a puppy, by far. 

I am also interested in hearing what about the Frenchton appeals to you. Perhaps there are other breeds as well that might fit what you want. No harm in broadening your search for a dog. 

Also, I would suggest just going to a few local shelters and seeing what dogs they have there. If you talk to the staff/volunteers about what you are looking for in a dog they can probably match you up with a dog there. I'm sure there are a bunch of nice small dogs in shelters near you that would really love for you to give them a home. Shelters tend to get the dog to you faster, but rescues are probably easier to find the specific breed you are looking for. (But like I said, a Heinz 57 mixed breed at the shelter might fit what you're looking for just as much as a Frenchton might, you just have to meet them.)

ETA: Even if you can't get the $300 back, it's still going to be less money to go with a shelter or rescue than with the breeder you have picked. If money is a true issue for you right now, I would definitely advise setting aside some money every month starting right now in case of an medical issue with your future dog. With it taking a month to save $300 you'd be in a really tight spot if something happened to your dog and he/she needed to see a vet.


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

zephercan said:


> plus there aren't the health issues that can come with purebreds especially french bulldog purebreds due to their respiratory problems.
> Thanks again


You know, its not true that all mix breeds are more healthy than all purebred dogs. Yes, a mix can get all the good of both of the breeds, but it can also get all of the bad. Really think about that...you are mixing two unhealthy dogs (since you think purebreeds are less healthy) and taking a puppy from them. How would the puppy not get any of the parents health problems? A well bred dog from a COE breeder is going to be more likely to be healthy than a desiger dog from a breeder. If you want a mix why don't you go to the shelter and find someone else that needs a second chance at life?


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

zephercan said:


> there aren't the health issues that can come with purebreds especially french bulldog purebreds due to their respiratory problems.


I'm afraid you're mistaken here.. what you're actually getting is an increased chance of getting health issues from BOTH breeds, as opposed to just the issues of one breed (several of which could be health tested for).

Potential Health Concerns for a "Frenchton"
-brachycephalic syndrome
-patellar luxation
-hemivertebrae
-sensorineural deafness
-eye problems
-Chrondrodysplasia
-Megaesophagus
-allergies (I would say this is *almost* guaranteed)
-Prolapsed eyelids

Also of course, there's the snorting, snoring, and LOTS of farts!

ETA: I have nothing against either breed. I actually own a Boston-mix (shelter rescue) and would love to have a Frenchie one day.. but not until I can afford one from a great breeder, and lots of cash for pet insurance or health savings.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

1. Now you've got me on petfinder which is very bad. 
2. I think we need a little cute on this thread. 

Found your French bulldog/Boston terrier mix. His name is Hershey and he's at a shelter in Indiana. 
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/19458288









However, I think these French bulldog/Staffordshire bull terrier mixes are even cuter, and I can see in the pictures that they have a bit longer muzzle so they probably wouldn't have the breathing problems. 

Gonzo
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/18780827









Maggie
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/17989515









See what awesome dogs you can get from a shelter? I wish I could adopt Gonzo.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

luvntzus said:


> It's a French Bulldog crossed with a Boston Terrier. They usually look a lot like French Bulldogs and cost a lot less.


Lol, comment of the day.

Just curious, what would you call this poor fella? He looks like a purebred Frenchie and he costs a lot less.








http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/19446462


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Inga said:


> Exactly! How would it make any sense for the "breeder" to breed mutts and make less money? Why wouldn't they breed purebred dogs and make more? I mean, a French Bulldog and a Boston? I don't see how that mix even makes sense. I think if you research more you would be able to find a purebred in that same price point. Pet quality pups in that price point I have seen many times. You might not be able to order them through the mail right away, you might have to put your name on a list and wait a few months but to me, it would be worth it. If not for the purebred, at least you wouldn't be supporting someone with less then ethical breeding practices. I have seen many many Boston puppies for less then that also.
> .


Because there are a lot of folks around who are under the impression that mixed breeds are healthier. It's a whole new market.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Nargle said:


> Lol, comment of the day.


That's kind of rude. They do look a lot like French Bulldogs and cost less than a purebred Frenchie. What's wrong with that statement?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

zephercan said:


> Oh yeah.... To clear up any confusion....a Frenchton is not a purebred. It is half French Bulldog and half Boston Terrier. Seems difficult to find a Frenchton under 1000, but they are significantly cheaper than a french bulldog plus there aren't the health issues that can come with purebreds especially french bulldog purebreds due to their respiratory problems.
> Thanks again


So, if Frenchies have respiratory issues becaue they are have flat faces, and Bostons also have flat faces, why would that be an improvement?


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Not sure how this thread got turned into "mutts are less expensive than purebreds" but to the OP I would try to file a claim with paypal to get your deposit back, and then search rescues/shelters for a "Frenchton".


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I've been trying to stay out of the arguing in this thread, but at this point I am having a bit of trouble.

Keep in mind that I understand the reaction to the site linked. 

What I don't understand is the particular condemnation of this purchaser's choice of getting mixed breed instead of a pure, on the point of that choice alone. I have probably taken offence to some of the blanket generalizations thrown around about both pure and designer dogs and also blanket condemnations of mixed dog breeders on this thread, as I know some incredibly well informed and passionate mixed breed breeders.

It really makes me wonder when there are suggestions that this poster look for a purebred at a cheap price point. There are, after all, tons and tons of substandard purebred dog breeders as well. Making the choice to buy one of their pups would be exactly the same, ethically, as a purebred in these breeds at a cheaper price point, as one is not going to be found through a club involved breeder. 

Directing this poster to a 'cheaper' purebred, I believe, is the wrong way to go. The replying posters can't be perfectly fine with the purchase of what could very well be a poorly bred purebred pup - if the criteria remains price point!



Pawzk9 said:


> Because there are a lot of folks around who are under the impression that mixed breeds are healthier. It's a whole new market.


Pawzk9, where are you from that mixbreeds are a new market? I am from Alberta and there has been a mixbreed market here for at least 25 years. Wallace Havens already had a burgeoning mixed breed business in the 80s. I hardly consider it new and can't understand why others would consider it so. The mixed breeds are healthier argument has also been going on long before the chicken and egg one, I'm sure. Many of us were raised with that understanding and I can argue it both ways and be right on each side.

To the poster, truly caring and passionate breeders, of purebred and mixed, are few and far between and extremely hard to find.

I would not advise getting pups from anyone that you cannot meet, and from any 'kennel' (whether in home or out) that you cannot visit and check out personally. 

We all have different ideas of what we want as a canine companion and who to support as a breeder. For the sake of the dogs, though, please do not support a breeder that mass produces pups with little care to the conditions the parents are kept in. For the sake of your own heartache, your new pup, and the future toll on you wallet, please support breeders that do know the history on their dogs (how long their parents lived, health conditions etc.) and have tested their own dogs for, minimally, clear patellas, heart and eye conditions (getting into larger breeds they should do hips as well). There are probably more specific conditions that the breeder would require knowledge of in the two breeds you are interested in (stenotic nares, history of cherry eye, hernias, and elongated pallet come to mind). 

These breeders are most usually found through breed associations and breed clubs. Online sites, such as the one that you have linked to, are tricky at best to sort through. Wonderful breeders can sometimes also be found through dog lover's community meet up clubs etc.

I am far from prejudiced against those that work outside the club system. Where I live there is barely a club system in place - it has little/no tradition here. I have purchased mixbreed dogs from a supportive breeder that I adore. They are not impossible to find, but close to. If you are not immersed into your own dog loving community it is usually best to look for a purebred breeder through clubs (if you have active clubs where you live).

SOB


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

luvntzus said:


> That's kind of rude. They do look a lot like French Bulldogs and cost less than a purebred Frenchie. What's wrong with that statement?


Well...

1, The price of a purebred dog is completely relative. There is no set standard of prices for dogs. There are probably Frenchie breeders that charge a whole range of prices. However...

2, Price really shouldn't be that big of a consideration when buying a dog. It certainly shouldn't be a deciding factor when choosing between two breeds, there are many more important factors, and...

3, Just because it's cheaper is no reason to go supporting the breeding of designer mutts and puppy mills, and finally...

4, There are plenty of perfectly good PUREBRED Frenchies of all ages that look EXACTLY like Frenchies in shelters and rescues for a fraction of the price of a Frenchie or designer mutt from a breeder, plus they're not coming from a puppymill or a BYB.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

For the op's research:

French Bulldog club: - http://frenchbulldogclub.org/

breeder's code of ethics (unfortunately testing is not specified here) - http://frenchbulldogclub.org/about/code-of-ethics-and-code-of-sportsmanship

understanding Frenchie health issues - http://frenchbulldogclub.org/about-frenchies/understanding-frenchies/understanding-our-health-issues

(I would imagine you can google search and find more specifics about Frenchie health issues).

OFA (health database) indicates that many breeders are checking hearing, eyes, hearts and patellas - http://www.offa.org/results.html?nu...&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&submit=Begin+Search

Boston Terrier Club - http://www.bostonterrierclubofamerica.org/

breeder's code of ethics (unfortunately testing is not specified here) - http://www.bostonterrierclubofamerica.org/BTCA/forms/CodeofEthics.pdf

understanding Boston Terrier health issues - http://www.bostonterrierclubofamerica.org/boston-terrier-health/boston-terrier-health.htm

OFA (health database) shows that many breeders are checking hearing, eyes, hearts and patellas. - http://www.offa.org/results.html?nu...&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&submit=Begin+Search

There is, of course, also petfinder if you are inclined toward the idea of rescuing.

SOB


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

zephercan said:


> OK, here's the deal.... I have cancer and believe that having a friend/dog will improve my condition. I have been looking for almost three months now. At this point I have a sense of urgency for my new friend/puppy.


Why not check out the dogs at your local shelter. Most of them make wonderful pets and they're ready for you to take home that same day usually. What is it that you like about Frenchie/Boston mixes?



zephercan said:


> Oh yeah.... To clear up any confusion....a Frenchton is not a purebred. It is half French Bulldog and half Boston Terrier. Seems difficult to find a Frenchton under 1000, but they are significantly cheaper than a french bulldog plus there aren't the health issues that can come with purebreds especially french bulldog purebreds due to their respiratory problems.
> Thanks again


Price shoping is not a good idea when your searching for your best friend, often the cheap comes out expensive in the end. And it's a complete myth that mixed breeds are healthier than purebreds, especial'y when you're dealing with two very similar breeds. Breeding a brachycephalic breed to another brachycephalic breed is not going to have any improvement on respiratory issues.


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## zephercan (May 4, 2011)

Arrrrg! You have all given me the impression that my puppy will arrive looking like some sickly genetic freak !! 
I've known 2 different frenchtons as well as playing with many others while at the park and all of them were incredible to me. Wonderful dispositions etc. etc. (fell in love) Their owners were severely fond of them and told me they have less health issues compared to a french bulldogs. Ideal for city life. etc.
*I will try to get my deposit back, but if I don't and the puppy arrives....is there any possibility it will be a healthy Frenchton ????????*
50/50 chance? or 60/40 chance? or etc. ????
Please... if there's anyway someone could try to HONESTLY answer that before someone takes it in a less helpful direction I would be forever grateful.
Thanks again y'all !!


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Your pup could be 100% perfect.... or.... it could have health issues later on. Because the parents aren't health tested, there's no guarantee (or at least a better chance) of your pup being close to 100%, as you don't know what the parents are, healthwise.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> I've been trying to stay out of the arguing in this thread, but at this point I am having a bit of trouble.
> 
> Keep in mind that I understand the reaction to the site linked.
> 
> ...


Dunno. To me, 25 years is a "new market". People have been breeding "poos" etc. for a while. The plethora of cute names like puggle, shorkie, frenchton, etc. are relatively new. I honestly don't care if people want to produce cross breds (and you know that I'm not one for playing the "puppymill" card about people I don't know.) I do think that it is misinformation that crossbreds are healthier than purebreds, or, in general, bred with more of an eye towards eliminating health and temperament issues. I suspect that some breeders have used that misinformation (propagated by the ARs to boost shelter and rescue adoptions) to promote a large variety of crossbreds to people who buy into the idea that they are sounder than purebreds. Like you, I would not be wanting to buy a puppy on line from dogs I did not know. I'm not anxious to paint breeders of pure or mixes with the broad brush of the ARs. But I'm also not totally averse to calling a spade a spade.



zephercan said:


> Arrrrg! You have all given me the impression that my puppy will arrive looking like some sickly genetic freak !!
> I've known 2 different frenchtons as well as playing with many others while at the park and all of them were incredible to me. Wonderful dispositions etc. etc. (fell in love) Their owners were severely fond of them and told me they have less health issues compared to a french bulldogs. Ideal for city life. etc.
> *I will try to get my deposit back, but if I don't and the puppy arrives....is there any possibility it will be a healthy Frenchton ????????*
> 50/50 chance? or 60/40 chance? or etc. ????
> ...


How would anyone be able to give you an idea of those odds? In general, I am a bit suspicious of people who sell puppies via paypal on line. But that's just me.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

zephercan said:


> Arrrrg! You have all given me the impression that my puppy will arrive looking like some sickly genetic freak !!
> I've known 2 different frenchtons as well as playing with many others while at the park and all of them were incredible to me. Wonderful dispositions etc. etc. (fell in love) Their owners were severely fond of them and told me they have less health issues compared to a french bulldogs. Ideal for city life. etc.
> *I will try to get my deposit back, but if I don't and the puppy arrives....is there any possibility it will be a healthy Frenchton ????????*
> 50/50 chance? or 60/40 chance? or etc. ????
> ...


I think you would be best to expect/prepare for some kind of health issue with your pup.. whether it's something the puppy arrives with, or something that shows up in the future. With those breeds, I would think it's very likely for _something_ to develop (I'd guess 80-90%, if you want a number on it).

Also, with money being an issue for you, I would highly highly recommend getting insurance for a Frenchie/Frenchie mix.


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

zephercan said:


> Arrrrg! You have all given me the impression that my puppy will arrive looking like some sickly genetic freak !!
> I've known 2 different frenchtons as well as playing with many others while at the park and all of them were incredible to me. Wonderful dispositions etc. etc. (fell in love) Their owners were severely fond of them and told me they have less health issues compared to a french bulldogs. Ideal for city life. etc.
> *I will try to get my deposit back, but if I don't and the puppy arrives....is there any possibility it will be a healthy Frenchton ????????*
> 50/50 chance? or 60/40 chance? or etc. ????
> ...


I honestly don't think anyone can give you those numbers aside from generalizing to the breeds (X number of frenchies develop Y). I would ask a vet for those numbers. As for getting an unhealthy dog it is doable to have a fantastic companion but just know you are getting two breeds known for health issues. Every breed has health issues (I believe it is king charles spaniels that have an incredibly high incidence of heart issues as an example), some breeds go deaf, some go blind, some are prone to hip dysplasia, the list goes on and on. Essentially you will have a dog as if you adopted from a shelter - you don't know the parent's genetic health and you can't predict your dog's health. Don't fret about that if you do end up with the dog - I would say a good number of people on this forum have rescued animals (I have 4) and so are in the same boat as you. Put aside a good amount for vet bills (whether you need it or not - frenchton could eat 5 pairs of socks and have health issues unrelated to his breed) and know that tons of other people are able to do it everyday. 
One of the reasons people are talking about the dog being unhealthy is you acquiring it from a "breeder" - it is generally accepted that a good breeder will do everything possible to breed healthy dogs so that is where the expectation of acquiring a healthy dog has come from - and it is also generally accepted when you rescue you have no idea what you are getting long term health wise.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Whewie...this thread turned into a panic!

OP, I have to express some slight concern at your situation. I understand you just didn't know about puppy mills, so I'll not judge you for that. But you said that you have cancer, an ailing mother, and that it takes you 3 months to come up with $300. I don't know about your vet, but $300 didn't even cover my pup's shots. In taking on a puppy, you can expect to spend likely over $1,000 in the first couple of months just on food, toys, a crate, vet bills, etc. On top of that, puppies demand a LOT of physical exercise, and I would worry that you might not be up for so much work or activity if you are still undergoing treatment for cancer PLUS taking care of an ailing parent. If I were in your situation, I would seriously reconsider going the puppy route at all.

If you can get your deposit back, which you may very well not be able to do, I would look into rescuing an ADULT dog who will require MUCH less time, money, and physical work.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ugh, I hate the "why would anyone pay that much for a mutt". Why would anyone pay that much for a car, or a pair of shoes, or a designer purse, a wedding, or whatever they value enough to spend _their_ money on? So not the point.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I just went on Google Maps Street view and at the location given by them for the address of 1164 Oss Williams Road, Limestone, TN there is a relatively neat farm house across from two relatively ramshackle barns. IF the dogs are in those barns.. not so good. There is a side road that Google also takes you to that goes to what looks like an old farm dump as the address for this kennel. 

Honestly, I wonder if the location they give is even real. IF the dogs are in those barns, this is just a bad thing all the way round. IF that is even the real location. 

I am reading all this and while I know I should be more sympathetic to your situation, I have my doubts about any of these postings.. Not knowing about Puppy Mills, Cancer, Alzheimer's and all the rest. I am sorry if this sounds really cruel and doubly sorry if my skepticism is ill placed, but I am doubting your entire story. 

I suspect you have sent this outfit some money (perhaps) and are now wondering how to get your money back OR you are trolling OR you are very knowledgeable and just trying to put out bad press on what, for all intents and purposes, sounds like a Puppymill (maybe an HSUS plant or something). 

Anyone who has cancer and a parent with Alzheimer's and what sounds like a very limited income would likely not be looking to take on a 13-15 year comittment (that is what a puppy is) that, the first year, will cost about $1,000 in vet bills. 

Again, I apologize for the harshness of this post if I am in the wrong, but the internet has made a disbeliever of me.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Ugh, I hate the "why would anyone pay that much for a mutt". Why would anyone pay that much for a car, or a pair of shoes, or a designer purse, a wedding, or whatever they value enough to spend _their_ money on? So not the point.


Yeah, I facepalmed at that too. Actually, there are so many face-palm worthy comments in this thread. 'Pure-bred' through a breeder only advocates can be so snobby, superficial and seriously under-informed. Even though my current pup is a 'pure-bred' rescue; the best, healthiest and longest living dog I've ever had was a shelter mutt. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with mutts. *sigh*


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Fuzzy Pants said:


> Yeah, I facepalmed at that too. Actually, there are so many face-palm worthy comments in this thread. 'Pure-bred' through a breeder only advocates can be so snobby, superficial and seriously under-informed. Even though my current pup is a 'pure-bred' rescue; the best, healthiest and longest living dog I've ever had was a shelter mutt. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with mutts. *sigh*


I don't even think the breeders here even necessarily have an anti-mutt feeling, but "why would someone pay that much for a mutt?" is really only a half a step away from "why would someone pay that much for a (purebred) DOG?" Personally I'd spend more money on SOME mutts than SOME purebreds, and vice versa.

Anyway, my point is mostly that the value that someone else places on something and how much they are willing to spend/how they choose to spend THEIR money is really NOT the point here.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Ugh, I hate the "why would anyone pay that much for a mutt". Why would anyone pay that much for a car, or a pair of shoes, or a designer purse, a wedding, or whatever they value enough to spend _their_ money on? So not the point.


See, I didn't think it's a matter of why pay that much for a mutt, as opposed to why pay that much to a BYB? It's going off the _almost_ 100% correct assumption that anyone purposely breeding mutts is a BYB. So yeah, replace mutt with BYB in this case. 

Paying that much for a BYB dog when you could get a purebred puppy with all the right health precautions (or just pay a smaller fee for a shelter dog) is like getting scammed and maying too much for a car or purse or pair of shoes that you thought was designer but was actually a fake.



zephercan said:


> Arrrrg! You have all given me the impression that my puppy will arrive looking like some sickly genetic freak !!
> I've known 2 different frenchtons as well as playing with many others while at the park and all of them were incredible to me. Wonderful dispositions etc. etc. (fell in love) Their owners were severely fond of them and told me they have less health issues compared to a french bulldogs. Ideal for city life. etc.
> *I will try to get my deposit back, but if I don't and the puppy arrives....is there any possibility it will be a healthy Frenchton ????????*
> 50/50 chance? or 60/40 chance? or etc. ????
> ...


Yes, there is a chance he will be healthy, and there is a chance (if I had to guess, given the breeds, a good chance) he won't. But what you are paying all that money for (in the case of a good breeder) is the best possible shot you have at getting a dog with few health problems. Of course, even all the right health testing and careful pairing of the dam and sire can't predict some things, but it can at least prevent/predict as many as possible. It's also paying for the wonderful care that a good breeder provides to the puppies, including early socialization, healthy diet, etc. that will set your pup up for future success. In the case with the breeder you have right now, you are _paying_ for all these things, but getting none of them. You are getting ripped off, big time. You are also supporting this breeder, who will continue to breed dogs with no concern for the breed, the dogs' health, or the buyer. If you are ok with getting ripped off and supporting these kinds of practices, that is your decision. Most people here are not ok with supporting that kind of thing. I guess it's just a decision you will have to make. (Another decision is reguarding the breed in general, which like many have mentioned, are more prone to health problems than other breeds. Another example is the cavalier kind charles spaniel, as someone mentioned. Some breeds just have more problems. The reputable breeders strive to produce the healthiest dogs they can, but all have a higher chance of health problems than most other breeds. That's another decision you have to make getting _any_ brachiocephalic dog - are you prepared to shell out big bucks should a problem come up?)


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> Paying that much for a BYB dog when you could get a purebred puppy with all the right health precautions (or just pay a smaller fee for a shelter dog) is like getting scammed and maying too much for a car or purse or pair of shoes that you thought was designer but was actually a fake.


Except that the purse or shoes are not living, breathing things and will likely never need vet treatment.

This is no BYB we're talking about here. At least with a BYB, you can go see the pup and, likely, the parents as well. The pups are probably raised in somebody's kitchen and will have some human contact.

Puppylovekennelstn.com is more likely a commercial dog farm - a puppy mill, if you prefer.

I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I were the OP. He seems to have come here for some reassurance and got, instead 50+ messages of very bad news. I'm assuming, for lack of evidence to the contrary, that the OP is legit, even though that Tennessee puppy mill almost certainly is not.

Maybe it's not too late to bail out. That would be my recommendation, even if it means giving up the deposit.

Let's not use this thread to carry on yet another designer breed/puppy mill/purebred vs mutt debate. We're tripping over those already on this forum.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Pynzie said:


> See, I didn't think it's a matter of why pay that much for a mutt, as opposed to why pay that much to a BYB? It's going off the _almost_ 100% correct assumption that anyone purposely breeding mutts is a BYB. So yeah, replace mutt with BYB in this case.


Except that people explicitly specified "mutt". *shrug*

ETA: And the point of my examples of purse, car, etc. either wasn't the danger of being scammed or likening knock-offs to BYB or even equate them with buying a dog at all. But simply that different people put differing values on different things. I didn't mean to derail this thread so much, but how much someone is willing to spend on a mutt is the least relevant part of the discussion IMO. It just chaps my hide to see "why would you spend so much money on a MUTT?!" as if they don't have value OR it's anyone's business what people choose to spend their money on.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Pynzie said:


> See, I didn't think it's a matter of why pay that much for a mutt, as opposed to why pay that much to a BYB? It's going off the _almost_ 100% correct assumption that anyone purposely breeding mutts is a BYB. So yeah, replace mutt with BYB in this case.


And I can make the almost 100% correct assumption that anyone purposely breeding purebred dogs is a BYB (your term) because the greatest majority aren't up to snuff to the shopped out 'byb/mill checklist' that is so popularly touted by many on these forums.

BUT you don't see posters exclaiming, regularly, "Why would anybody pay that much for a purebred when they can get one in shelter?" 

The fact is BOTH assumptions are offensive to those that are mixed or purebred breeders and taking care and considerations to breed with all in place. Statements can be made differently and less offence would be taken.

Personally, I find this statement one of the most offensive of the thread.

If these statements were made to address the particular kennel that this poster asked about, that would be a different story, but they are shopped out there as generalized blanket truths and they are far from it. 

These types of statements elevate the status of breeders breeding pure and degrade the status of those breeding mixed, and have helped to cause the 'lazy' shopping that is too often seen. I can't lament enough how many times I have read 'but the breeder only breeds AKC . . . or 'my pup has a CH sire/grandsire' so I thought they were good .

Marketting of all pups by those that don't care can be slick, and I find it ridiculous that one segment of breeders are continually called on it, while the others often get a free pass.

SOB


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Just wanted to ad that if they are shipping you the puppy it definitely should not come at six weeks or you are definitely going to end up with a sick puppy when it arrives. It is way too much stress on a puppy that young to be taken from it's mother, barely weaned and shipped across country.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Except that people explicitly specified "mutt". *shrug*
> 
> ETA: And the point of my examples of purse, car, etc. either wasn't the danger of being scammed or likening knock-offs to BYB or even equate them with buying a dog at all. But simply that different people put differing values on different things. I didn't mean to derail this thread so much, but how much someone is willing to spend on a mutt is the least relevant part of the discussion IMO. It just chaps my hide to see "why would you spend so much money on a MUTT?!" as if they don't have value OR it's anyone's business what people choose to spend their money on.


Well, as someone who made one of the "mutt" comments, I'll give my thoughts on it. It's not that I don't like mixed breeds, not that I don't think people should be able to choose to have mixed breeds. There are a good many purebreds that come from situations where *I* couldn't see paying big bucks for them either. (Though, in many cases I could see owning one). To me, in order to be willing to pay a high price for a dog, there would have to be a reason why that dog is superior to other dogs I might get. That would include serious research, study and health testing by the breeder. I'm not just paying for a dog, I'm paying for an individual's hard work. I'm paying for a known pedigree and known health clearances. ARE there breeders of mixes who do these things. No doubt. Especially purpose bred mixes like some stockdogs, and some "developing breeds" Frequently, people who just make a bunch of F-1 crosses and give them cutesy names do not. In kennels like this one appears to be, I just don't see that kind of commitment. So, one would be just as well off getting a cute little mix off petfinder or from a rescue or shelter. The risks would be the same, the level of support might be higher. Note that I am not judging the quality of this breeder without knowing them. Their website does bring up some concerns (designer dogs being the least of it) and personally, I wouldn't recommend getting a dog from them. But nobody needs to take my recommendation.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, I dig that, Pawzk9. But it's the "why would ANYONE pay that much for a mutt?!?!?!" comments that really chap my hide. You have your reasons for your choices, and so do they. And honestly, the "designer breeds" I've seen at the clinic (and there are a lot of them out there) as a whole are no more or less healthy than most of the purebreds I've seen. I would pay good money for some of them myself, if I were inclined to purchase a dog from a breeder at all.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

I would pay a couple grand for my mutt

<3


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## AngelandShifusHuman (Jun 16, 2010)

I am not getting into Purebred v/s mutt debate. 

Just wanted to address the deposit issue the OP mentioned. I had made payment (via Paypal) for a rescue dog to an out of state resuce. I in fact posted here and the rescue seemed a bit iffy and on top of that they said the dog I was adopting was pregnant so I couldn't get it till 3-4 months later. I asked for a refund and got no response....so I put in a dispute for the payment at Paypal....the wait for the other party to respond to the dispute (there is time limit to that) and I did get whole of my payment for the puppy and shipping cost back.

Worth a try if you do change your mind.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> These types of statements elevate the status of breeders breeding pure and degrade the status of those breeding mixed.


I have seen/heard of a lot more quality pure breeders and I don't recall ever coming across or hearing of a quality mixed breeder. Granted, I've never looked for a quality mixed breeder, but even without looking I've heard of many many quality pure breeders. Perhaps there is a quality mixed breeder out there, which I guess you have personal knowledge of and this is what you are defending? Yes, there are BYB and puppy mill and oops litter pure breeds, but there are also quality ones, and it seems like there are a lot. Yes, there are BYB and puppy mill and oops litter mixed breeds, and I am assuming from your posts that there are some quality mixed breeders, but how many? A handful? Surely less then quality pure breeders. So if I am going to make a generalization about anything, it seems that with so few exceptions, it's pretty good generalization that mixed breeders are not doing all that they can to ensure the health of the animals. I'm not going to say that is true absolutely 100% of the time, but I have yet to be shown a quality mixed breeder. I welcome anyone to point me in the direction of some examples, as I am sure some must exist given your response and how you have taken offense. But until I see a considerable number of examples, I will believe that yes, generally, mixed breeders are not quality breeders. I would really truly like to believe otherwise, but I have not seen evidence of that yet. 

Personally, I would either pay for the quality provided by a breeder that does the necessary health checks, carefully matches up the breeding pair, takes good care of the pups, etc. OR I would get a dog from the shelter (mixed or purebred), where I can get a great dog, but I am not getting much, if any, background information and no information on whether the dog is susceptible for any genetic health issues. Both options are fine with me, and I know I will be doing both in my life. I don't see it as paying money for the dog, because a purebred or mixed breed or shelter dog or puppy or any of those can be equally wonderful companions. Any extra money paid to a breeder would be for the service provided, the future support, and the peace of mind that this dog won't be affected by some avoidable health problem. If I could get all that from a shelter, I'd surely pay equally for a dog from a breeder or a Heinz 57 from the shelter. It's not the dogs that are worth more, it's the knowledge and the support and the health testing etc. that are worth more.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

I never saw the who would pay that much for a mutt comment...

I saw "who would pay that much for a little mixed breed"

I, personally, think mutts are distinctly different from, say, designer breeds.

Brady is a mutt like...I have no idea what's in him mutt.

A deliberate crossing of 2 breeds just seems...different than that.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I do not even have to go to the website to know that is a broker. The puppies probably come from all over. 

As for this mix being "healthier", I do not really see it, of coure I do not buy into the mixed breeds are always healthier stuff. Genetics does not work like that, wether purebred or mixed a dog is only as good as the genes that get matched together. Mixing two brachy breeds will not make a dog with a long snout, well unless they are breeding some poorly put together dogs but that is another issue all together. So I just don't see how breeding two of the same thing cancels out and you have a dog that has better respitory than the parents. 

Just because you have seen two examples, does not mean all are like that. Mixed breeds are a box of surprises when it comes to traits, you never know what you are going to get.

If you really want a mixed breed, rather than helping the problem, why don't you buy from a shelter, you will be saving a lifwe and that could be very symbolic.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Pynzie said:


> . . . I guess you have personal knowledge of and this is what you are defending? .


Absolutely. I know not one outstanding purebred dog breeder (and I have looked). I know OF some though. I DO personally know a few that breed mutts/mixbreeds that are exceptional.



Pynzie said:


> . I am assuming from your posts that there are some quality mixed breeders, but how many? A handful? Surely less then quality pure breeders. .


My experience studying canine genetics and on breeder lists for years tells me that there are many within the purebreed dog world that sincerely believe they are quality breeders due to their associations and effort put into their litters, and believe they have to be putting out a 'better' pup, but I have yet to find evidence of very many of them. Some are very good at producing consistency in their lines. Some measure that as 'better'. I am not one that thinks it is necessarily so.



Pynzie said:


> . So if I am going to make a generalization about anything, it seems that with so few exceptions, it's pretty good generalization that mixed breeders are not doing all that they can to ensure the health of the animals. I'm not going to say that is true absolutely 100% of the time, but I have yet to be shown a quality mixed breeder..


My problem is with the generalizations. There is no need. It is just as easy to type 'why pay money for a poor bred dog' as it is to type 'why pay money for a mutt' OR, better yet, 'why support breeders that have no care for their breeding stock'?



Pynzie said:


> I welcome anyone to point me in the direction of some examples, as I am sure some must exist given your response and how you have taken offense. But until I see a considerable number of examples, I will believe that yes, generally, mixed breeders are not quality breeders. I would really truly like to believe otherwise, but I have not seen evidence of that yet.


Again, generally purebred breeders are not quality breeders, according to the standards most often touted on forums.

A quality and knowledgeable mixed breeder that leaves herself open to public scrutiny is here (I know a few like her) - http://desertwindhounds.blogspot.com/ - http://desertwindhounds.blogspot.com/2009/07/husbandry-and-hypocrisy-or-when.html



Pynzie said:


> Personally, I would either pay for the quality provided by a breeder that does the necessary health checks, carefully matches up the breeding pair, takes good care of the pups, etc. OR I would get a dog from the shelter (mixed or purebred),.


Me too, and I have purchased mix breed dogs, and as well have most often had rescues.



Pynzie said:


> Any extra money paid to a breeder would be for the service provided, the future support, and the peace of mind that this dog won't be affected by some avoidable health problem. If I could get all that from a shelter, I'd surely pay equally for a dog from a breeder or a Heinz 57 from the shelter. It's not the dogs that are worth more, it's the knowledge and the support and the health testing etc. that are worth more.


You are correct in saying the extra money is for the service provided and future support. Both pure and mixed breeders can offer this. Peace of mind, however, cannot be provided for any pup from any breeder. To be clear, the purchaser of a well bred purebred pup DOES NOT have more assurance of the life long good health for that pup than the adopter of a mutt. They cannot buy that assurance. It is a gamble no matter which they go. They will have a better idea of its future physical and temperament traits.

Keep in mind that we all live in very different places. For those of us that live off the beaten path, in places where the 'fancy' has not had great impact, such as in rural and Northern Canada (that would be most of Canada) and in places like South American and Africa etc., the purebred breeders we see are the ones that are just as guilty of peddling a product as those that are breeding designer dogs where you live.

When pawzk9 said mixbreeds are relatively new, at 25 years, I had to laugh, because that is about the same amount of time that we've had purebreed peddlers here. Before that MOST dogs were obtained from neighbors/friends/out of the paper/off of church bulletin boards with the very rare few obtaining purebred dogs. The breeding of mixed and mutt dogs has a much longer history and traditon.

There is a great effort to promote JUST the purchase of purebred dogs, as being the only ethical type of purchase, as IF the breeding of purebred dogs and the system that surrounds that somehow deserves this kind of support. I have yet to see that support earned.

Some prefer to purchase purebreds. Others are just as happy to purchase mutts. We all make our choices according to our own criteria, and I find it hard to swallow when the 'criteria' to do so is deliberately slanted to favor a faction of breeders that do not exist in many places, and as far as I am concerned has not proved itself as worthy of sole support . . . then comes the encouragement to have a pup shipped in. 

There are innumerable shipped in from the heartland 'USA' purebred small breed dogs that meet up in my dog meet up group, along with numerous shipped in rescues . . . yet these same people would scoff at someone going to a breeder here that they could meet and check out, if that breeder was selling a dog that was not purebred.

I find that an excrutiatingly sad comment on people's lack of ability to reason for themselves and their desire to jump on the 'politically correct' popular bandwagon even when it doesn't fit where they live.

SOB


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

lisak_87 said:


> I, personally, think mutts are distinctly different from, say, designer breeds.
> 
> Brady is a mutt like...I have no idea what's in him mutt.
> 
> A deliberate crossing of 2 breeds just seems...different than that.


I feel the same. To me, a mix of 2 purebreds is basically purebred, except that you don't know which parent he'll take after, but you do know he'll take after one or both of them. You never know what you'll get with a real mutt! I like the "grab-bag" quality of mutts.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> When pawzk9 said mixbreeds are relatively new, at 25 years, I had to laugh, because that is about the same amount of time that we've had purebreed peddlers here. Before that MOST dogs were obtained from neighbors/friends/out of the paper/off of church bulletin boards with the very rare few obtaining purebred dogs. The breeding of mixed and mutt dogs has a much longer history and traditon.
> SOB


You know, when I was a small child (and that was WAY more than 25 years ago - double it and you'd be close) there was a song called "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window" about buying a puppy from a petstore. To my memory, people didn't just start getting purebreds 25 years ago. Breeding purebreds has been very big since before Victorian times. And breeders of purebreds used to be well respected. Maybe not in your neck of the woods, of course. There may be mixed breeders who are careful and purposeful. In my neck of the wood, that's not terribly common. And I'd like to make it known that I don't think what one pays for a dog is proprotionate with the value one puts on that dog. Some of the best dogs I've owned, I payed nothing for. But I value them greatly. Alice is certainly one of the most valuable dogs in the world.



Willowy said:


> I feel the same. To me, a mix of 2 purebreds is basically purebred, except that you don't know which parent he'll take after, but you do know he'll take after one or both of them. You never know what you'll get with a real mutt! I like the "grab-bag" quality of mutts.


Cross breeds are purebreds? Really???? I saw a cross between a mini American shepherd and a "spanish mastiff" on a rescue page this morning. Very cute pups, but since the MAS was the dam, still trying to figure out how that happened. Now supposing that both parents were purebred, do you suppose the pups are? Sort of reminds me of the end of Turner and Hooch, where Hooch's "lady" - a collie, has like 5 collie puppies and one DDB puppy. Genetics just don't work that way.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> You know, when I was a small child (and that was WAY more than 25 years ago - double it and you'd be close) there was a song called "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window" about buying a puppy from a petstore. .



I remember it well.



Pawzk9 said:


> To my memory, people didn't just start getting purebreds 25 years ago. Breeding purebreds has been very big since before Victorian times. And breeders of purebreds used to be well respected. *Maybe not in your neck of the woods, of course*. .


And that is the point. In my neck of the woods breeders of dogs were well respected IF they bred well. It did not matter if they bred papered dogs or mutts. The push to promote papered only has not been more than 25 years here. I would suggest its been less than 15.

I obviously take umbrage to the idea that now purebred dog breeders can possibly be the only ones doing things right. That system has yet to earn that thought from me.

SOB


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> I remember it well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not from your neck of the woods (don't even know which neck that would be) so I respect that your experience is your experience. I do have to say that in MY neck of the woods (which is pretty average americana - not a snooty, terribly sophisticated or high-class area at all) getting a purebred, pedigreed dog was MORE popular 15-25-40 or 50 years ago than it is now. And not many people were out there making a profit breeding F1s. Most mixes came about by accident. Back to the original subject here, just by looking at their website, would you feel comfortable recommending puppylovekennelstn.com as a really good place to spend a grand on a mixed breed (or purebred) puppy?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

If you missed it in the thread, I am from rural Alberta, Canada, originating from Northern Alberta. My first Cockapoo experience was my Aunt's, 35 years ago. Wonderful dog from a caring breeder. My Aunt repeated the purchase as well.

I also mentioned already my criteria for where to start when looking for a pup (page 2). I believe Puppylovekennels would not fit.

SOB


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## jess4525 (Aug 27, 2009)

lisak_87 said:


> I would pay a couple grand for my mutt
> 
> <3


Me too, I was thinking the same exact thing! (about Cam)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Cross breeds are purebreds? Really???? I saw a cross between a mini American shepherd and a "spanish mastiff" on a rescue page this morning. Very cute pups, but since the MAS was the dam, still trying to figure out how that happened. Now supposing that both parents were purebred, do you suppose the pups are? Sort of reminds me of the end of Turner and Hooch, where Hooch's "lady" - a collie, has like 5 collie puppies and one DDB puppy. Genetics just don't work that way.


 No, of course they aren't purebreds. But to me, a mix of 2 purebreds is _almost_ the same as a purebred. What's the difference? Especially when the 2 breeds are so similar, like a Maltese/Poodle, a Lhasa/Shih Tzu, or a Frenchie/Boston. They aren't mutts. I might consider an MAS/Mastiff mix a mutt, though, LOL.

My dad had a Cocker/Poodle mix when he was a kid (early '50s). He doesn't remember where they got her. My mom's family's dog (closer to the '60s) was a Cocker/Pomeranian, she was from a neighbor's litter. Either F1 mixes were really popular back then in the Canal Zone, or somebody's Cocker really got around! My parents said that purebreds were for the hoity-toity people, "regular" people had mixes--although both families had F1 mixes, not mutts, and I don't see why it was any different for your Cocker to hook up with the neighbor's Pom rather than the other neighbor's Cocker. . .so I wonder if people were deliberately breeding mixes for the regular folks, maybe they couldn't sell purebreds because nobody wanted to be hoity-toity.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> My dad had a Cocker/Poodle mix when he was a kid (early '50s). He doesn't remember where they got her. My mom's family's dog (closer to the '60s) was a Cocker/Pomeranian, she was from a neighbor's litter. Either F1 mixes were really popular back then in the Canal Zone, or somebody's Cocker really got around! My parents said that purebreds were for the hoity-toity people, "regular" people had mixes--although both families had F1 mixes, not mutts, and I don't see why it was any different for your Cocker to hook up with the neighbor's Pom rather than the other neighbor's Cocker. . .so I wonder if people were deliberately breeding mixes for the regular folks, maybe they couldn't sell purebreds because nobody wanted to be hoity-toity.


I remember the same thing as a kid, a lot of people had mixes except for the hunters who had labs or GSPs. There were a lot of cockapoos. And people were breeding them on purpose for sure. It was a big deal when some people moved in next door with a purebred yorkie, so fancy!


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

I have nothing to add to the original discussion, but just want to chime in and say that I always love your posts, SOB. Very very refreshing.

I guess I should also say that my experience in suburban NE Ohio was exactly the same as SOB, Willowy and Sassafrass - most people had mixed breed dogs from rescues or purchased from friends. Very very few had purebred dogs, and when they did, it was a big deal and seemed "exotic".

Nowadays, roughly 20 years later, I see a LOT more purebred dogs in the same area, and less mutts.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Where I am from (Northern Europe) when I was a kid there was a bit of an elitist attitude towards dogs. Only purebred dogs were "real" dogs, and mixed breed dogs were inferior. This is still reflected in competitions where only purebred, registered dogs get to compete. If you did get a mixed breed, you would find it in the classifieds and pay about $20 .

At 18 when I was investigating whether or not to get a dog, everyone said to get a purebred from a breeder.

However these days, mixed breeds are very popular, there are oodles everywhere and people are deliberately breeding yorkies and chis and poodles, and charging ridiculous amounts for them. You'd probably pay about $4000-5000 for a small designer breed.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

lil_fuzzy said:


> However these days, mixed breeds are very popular, there are oodles everywhere and people are deliberately breeding yorkies and chis and poodles, and charging ridiculous amounts for them. You'd probably pay about $4000-5000 for a small designer breed.


Where have you seen them cost that much?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

What does cost of a purebred vs. mutt have to do with the price of tea in China? I believe the OP asked if they should purchase from this kennel, not how much they should pay for their dog in question. I don't give a care about how much someone pays for their dog as long as they purchasing from a respectable place.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> Where have you seen them cost that much?


 All over the show.

Craigslist, in the back of a few dog magazines, pet stores.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> Where have you seen them cost that much?


Northern Europe, where I'm from.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> I remember the same thing as a kid, a lot of people had mixes except for the hunters who had labs or GSPs. There were a lot of cockapoos. And people were breeding them on purpose for sure. It was a big deal when some people moved in next door with a purebred yorkie, so fancy!


Interesting it was like that in the States, too. . .since my parents didn't grow up in the States, and I didn't grow up in the States, I never assume our experiences are indicative of the average American experience, LOL.

On the Navy base, people either had dogs (purebreds or not) they brought with them from the States or random mutts (who appeared to be mostly Shiba Inu) they picked up on the streets. There were a few breeders of small-breed purebreds but not very many, because the bases had a 2-pet limit. And the Japanese are mostly fond of tiny little white somethings (I don't even know if they were purebred or not! Possibly Maltese or mixes thereof) that cost a small fortune from the pet shops, so no Americans really had those. So I KNOW my dog experiences weren't normal. But maybe the Canal Zone was more Americanized.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I grew up in a wealthy suburb in one of the few normal neighborhoods where a lot of my friends had mansions. I remember us being the only ones to have mutts, actually! Everyone else had golden retrievers, toy dogs, or cocker spaniels (all buff colored). Come to think of it though, I don't know anyone that has a cocker these days but they were everywhere when I was a child.


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## lisaj1354 (Feb 23, 2008)

On my small block, there are 4 Yorkies (each a different body type and size), one Westie, a bull dog, a boxer, a mastiff, two needle-nosed Bichons, and two rescued mutts - one of which is mine (a probable Maltese x Yorkie) and a Schnauzer x Terrier.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

zephercan said:


> Arrrrg! You have all given me the impression that my puppy will arrive looking like some sickly genetic freak !!
> I've known 2 different frenchtons as well as playing with many others while at the park and all of them were incredible to me. Wonderful dispositions etc. etc. (fell in love) Their owners were severely fond of them and told me they have less health issues compared to a french bulldogs. Ideal for city life. etc.
> *I will try to get my deposit back, but if I don't and the puppy arrives....is there any possibility it will be a healthy Frenchton ????????*
> 50/50 chance? or 60/40 chance? or etc. ????
> ...


Frankly with Puppy mill pups it's a toss up. I have a Puppy mill Pug who's had relitively little in the way of health issues, he has MILD patellar luxation but has been otherwise healthy. The fact that they are sending you this pup at 6 weeks is going to put your pup at a distinct disadvantage as far as socialization (the 4-12 week stage is when pups learn bite inhibition from mom and littermates)

It's not so much the mix, but the fact that similar mixes can be found in most shelters and many rescues. IT's also the breeder ethics, most here are of the belief that it's fine to breed (even mixes) IF the breeding is done in a RESPONSIBLE manner and quite simply Puppy mills DON'T breed responsibly. I truly hope you can get your money back, but if you end up with the pup instead make sure to:

1. Get some health insurance on the dog

2. Save back for emergencies (this should be done with ANY dog)

3. Get the pup into puppy class as soon as you're allowed to for socialization

And read these

The Bite Stops Here

BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf

New Puppy

Housetraining

Puppy Training



Willowy said:


> Interesting it was like that in the States, too. . .since my parents didn't grow up in the States, and I didn't grow up in the States, I never assume our experiences are indicative of the average American experience, LOL.
> 
> On the Navy base, people either had dogs (purebreds or not) they brought with them from the States or random mutts (who appeared to be mostly Shiba Inu) they picked up on the streets. There were a few breeders of small-breed purebreds but not very many, because the bases had a 2-pet limit. And the Japanese are mostly fond of tiny little white somethings (I don't even know if they were purebred or not! Possibly Maltese or mixes thereof) that cost a small fortune from the pet shops, so no Americans really had those. So I KNOW my dog experiences weren't normal. But maybe the Canal Zone was more Americanized.


I know that in in Japan owning a Giant breed is a HUGE staus symbol, I know someone that was given a HUGE upgrade in housing (on base) when it was found out they had an English Mastiff. Just the fact that you're able to afford the food and SPACE for a Giant breed is amazing to most Japanese.


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## sheldon_1 (Jul 19, 2011)

NO!!! I got my puppy there and he his bowels have had bacterial worms for 3 weeks now even after medication from our vet here in town. She said that our puppy was tested at her vets office and that the fecal came up negative but in fact we called and the vet only tests a few puppies out of a litter. The puppies did'nt get enough food and water while living there, therefore he now eats his own feces and drinks his own urine. We love him very much but i would never recommend this kennel/puppy mill to anyone.


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