# Crate TRaining Bad?



## GlitterFlame89 (Mar 3, 2008)

I came across this post on the Philadelphia Craigslist Pet Section, and I have never heard anything like this before. What does everyone think about it? And if you should not Crate your dog, what other way is their to keep it out of trouble when you cannot be home? Not saying I advocate this at all or anything, just want reactions and responses.

_"But My Dog LOVES his Crate!"

If you want to get my hackles up, just make the above statement about your dog. It works every time. I've always known deep in my bones that there's something so wrong about that statement. In my mind, it conjures up visions of brainwashing and George Orwell's 1984. Now I've finally stumbled upon the scientific underpinnings for my aversion to crating dogs in a book called Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training by Steven Lindsay. The author is a dog trainer in Newtown Square, Pennsylvania, and his book is very technical (and very heavy¯almost 800 pages!). 

Here's something that Lindsay has to say about crating: "Many advocates of long-term crate confinement claim that dogs are phylogenetically preadapted to live in a crate. These conclusions are based on various fallacious assumptions derived from inappropriate comparisons with the use of dens by wild canids and feral dogs. In reality, a crate has far more in common with a trap (or grave) than it does with a den [emphasis mine]. Further, a den actually has far more in common with a home, the natural environment of a dog, providing access to communal indoor and outdoor living spaces via a two-way door. An obvious distinction between a den and a crate is physical entrapment, isolation, and inescapability. While the den provides the mother with the seclusion and security that she needs to deliver and care for her young, it does not restrict her freedom of movement, as the crate does. Instead of providing a safe environ for her young, the crate serves the express purpose of separating the dog from social attachment objects. Further, instead of promoting comfort and safety, the inescapable exclusion imposed by crate confinement appears to confer an increased vulnerability for disruptive emotional arousal and insecure place attachments. Most puppies and dogs show a high degree of aversive arousal when first exposed to crate confinement, which is consistent with the foregoing comparison. After learning that the crate is inescapable, however, dogs appear to treat the crate in a paradoxical manner analogous to persons affected by the Stockholm syndrome; that is, they appear to form strong attachments with the crate, which becomes the place they identify as home" [emphasis mine]. 

Wikipedia defines "Stockholm syndrome" this way: "Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed. Stockholm syndrome is also sometimes discussed in reference to other situations with similar tensions, such as battered person syndrome, rape cases, child abuse cases and bride kidnapping. The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg, Stockholm, Sweden, in which the bank robbers held bank employees hostage from August 23 to August 28 in 1973. In this case, the victims became emotionally attached to their victimizers and even defended their captors after they were freed from their six-day ordeal. The term 'Stockholm syndrome' was coined by the criminologist and psychiatrist Nils Bejerot, who assisted the police during the robbery and referred to the syndrome in a news broadcast." 

Wow! I would not want any of my training methods to be associated with this sort of unsavory activity! 

Lindsay goes on to describe this abnormal attachment to the crate and why it's so bad for the dog: "Some puppies and dogs appear to develop an inordinate attachment with their crates, sometimes preferring to be in their crates rather than with the owner. The daily repeated exposure to the sterile environs of the crate may significantly undermine a developing dog's ability to habituate and adjust to the wider domestic social and physical environment. Although most puppies initially respond to crate confinement as a stressful state of affairs, with repeated exposure, stress and aversion gradually give way to an odd attraction to confinement. This gradual attraction to crate confinement appears to occur in association with increased feelings of security, safety, and comfort, rather than increasing levels of vulnerability and insecurity, as one might expect from a condition of entrapment. One possible explanation for this paradoxical effect is provided by opponent-process theory. The lengthy exposure to crate confinement provides a situation in which separation distress and other reactions associated with vulnerable isolation eventually give way to opponent affects of comfort and safety, that is, the exact opposite to the distress and vulnerability initially evoked by crate confinement. … So far, this opponent-processing analysis does not sound like much of a problem for a dog until one considers how it may interfere with the formation of a satisfying attachment and bond between the owner and the dog. … For dogs exposed to excessive crate confinement …, their search for comfort and safety may gradually turn from the family and home to the crate. Such dogs may develop a powerful bond and dependency upon the crate as a space of comfort and safety. … So, as many owners say, it may be truer than expected that some dogs do, in fact, love their crates, perhaps in some cases more than they love the owner." 

This makes my heart ache. Mostly for the crated dogs but also for the dog guardians who may one day wake up and realize just how much damage they've done to their beloved dogs. _


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I think the author stated his argument when he defined confinement as "long term." A crate should never be recommended for long term confinement. And I would define long term as anything over 4 hours, regularly. 

Plus, you have to take into account sleeping hours. If the dog sleep all night, and he's in his crate for 8 hours, is there really any harm in sleeping?

It should also be mentioned that if you have an active dog like I do, and rest is needed, a crate is a great place to get away from the hustle and bustle of our home. 

So, I find the author's argument one sided and misleading.

I really don't care how my dog views the crate. It's needed in our home, and if you're a responsible owner, you are social with your dogs when they are out of the crate.


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## GlitterFlame89 (Mar 3, 2008)

That's basiclly what I thought. I don't see how someone can housebreak and train a puppy, work, and not have things destroyed or the puppy injured without using a crate. You should never put a dog in a crate all day and night, I think most everyone realizes that, but used properly I don't see adverse effects. That said, we had a puppy once who had seperation anxiety so bad that he broke several crates trying to escape. He even gnawed through a basement door when we went out (heated, finished basement, of course). In retrospect, although everyone told us to keep up trying with the crate, I'm not sure that was the best course of action for this dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Ya, in that case you'd have to decide whether the dog should destroy a crate or destroy your house, or yard. If the dog already has an anxiety problem, he's going to have it crate or not. But it's also why conditioning the dog to the crate, and keeping it a happy place is necessary.


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## GlitterFlame89 (Mar 3, 2008)

*Re: Crate Training Bad?*

That was what we thought; ultimately we sectioned of the basement into a seperate room where he could destroy nothing and left him in there; he reacted a little better that way. He was a rescue; apparently he was abused, because according to our trainer he had a lot of issues that could stem from that. We are not sure. He was about 7 months when we got him, and a holy terror for about 2 years. We finally got him calmed and adjusted and he turned out to be a wonderful dog. That was when we learned that being persistent and not giving up immediately on a rescued dog is more than worthwhile.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: Crate Training Bad?*

My dogs make the first trip to our house in a crate in the car. And they sleep in their crates from the first night. I believe in crates.

My dogs prefer the plastic airline type. As soon as someone walks in the front door witha little kid, those dogs run for crates, rather than be chased by a child. They also like their crates when bully sticks are given out. They want to have their treat all to themselves. 

I crate at night, if I have to leave the house, and any time I thnk the dogs would be better off protected in their crates. They also must ride in the car in their crates. I have come upon too many vehicle crashes over the years wehre the humans survived because they were belted in, but we found the dog(s) thrown hundreds of feet from the vehicle because they were not restrained.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Ya, in that case you'd have to decide whether the dog should destroy a crate or destroy your house, or yard. If the dog already has an anxiety problem, he's going to have it crate or not. But it's also why conditioning the dog to the crate, and keeping it a happy place is necessary.


CP
I don't know what's scarier the book or now some of the people who will read it and preach it. More crate bad ammunition.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Lindsay's books are excellent, but I think the author of this argument is taking Linsay's words out of context to fit his argument. And I would agree, if you're going to make an argument like this, you have to be fair and define "long term", and I think most people would agree, long term is over use.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

http://www.clickerdogs.com/Crate Games Trailer.mp4

Just take a lookit those poor, abused doggies... 

Sure, crating can be over done. So can carrying dogs, treating dogs, and punishment.

One alternative to crating would be a puppy proofed room. Doggy daycare or having a pet sitter come by might also be alternatives for some. Ultimately, I think crating has it's place and I do train our dogs to enjoy being crated. Emergencies do happen unexpectedly, and sometimes it's not always possible for a dog to be contained without a crate.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Oh, yeh, I've brainwashed my Plott hound.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Wow, RonE. The poor thing looks miserable in there!


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## GlitterFlame89 (Mar 3, 2008)

LOL, what a beautiful dog! My Mom's Lab and Mini Dachsund love their Crate, too. I have a feeling if you were to actually red the book, it would say before or after that passage what an extended period of time would be. There is a war going on at the Craigslist site over To Crate or Not to Crate at the moment. I just wanted to see what knowledgable dog people would think about it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The Craigslist quoter totally loses my respect when he/she takes it over the edge with the Sockholm syndrome. 

Dogs are not people and the use of the crate is not guarded by gun toting bank robbers.... 

I have worked with my own dogs and lots of horses for YEARS and sometimes I am literally AMAZED at the unreasonable thinking some people have when it comes to their animals... from the blatently cruel to anthropomorphising the poor things to an unreasonable status. 

*sigh*
Pressing on.. 

PS: To Ron E:

I love your obviously abused, torutred and unhappy Plott Hound. You should be ashamed....


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## mom2kdg (Jan 12, 2007)

I agree with all of you on this one. I don't think I would have a dog if I couldnt use a crate. My house can be insane at time and Rambo can't wait to get in his crate to get away from it all. I wish I had one, LOL


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

My dog when at the vet and I let her out with a doggy gate (I can only do this when it's not too busy though unfortunately) will sometimes eventually just go back in her crate and hang out there (she doesn't mind the crate when I'm there. In fact I have found she prefers to be locked in the crate where she can see me rather than in the kitchen where a lot of times a wall blocks her view of me).

At night I know she is ready to sleep when she just goes into her crate and lies down (otherwise she'll go in to find a toy and bring it out but likes to hang out on the dog bed outside). She does not have a fear of it or she wouldn't even go in there to find a toy (unlike one of my cats who knows the crate is a trap to take her to the vet so will run and hide soon as I even touch a kitty crate).

I didn't train her to like the crate (she came that way and not sure what the guy did to train her to do that. I got the impression that he really didn't train them much rather than just let the litter play with each other outside until he could find people who would adopt them. He gave them attention and such, not sure though he bothered with any training).


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

I would have to completely agree with everyone here that crate training is a good thing. Just don't let your mom try to crate train your dog, or it will look like this....


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

I crate train- it has to be- we transport our animals in a crate- its much safer. You will always find someone to support your ideas and what you think is right. Overall allot of animals get crated- horses stalled 23 hours a day, chickens cooped up, cats in the house only, Goats... as long as the animals get the attention and care and exercise needed to keep them healthy in every way, I dont see anything wrong with crate training. Personally I crate train and keep my animal contained for a variety of reasons, but I can honestly say none of them hate it- there are plenty of times where they just "chill" in the crate- they wouldnt do that if they would hate it. As for horses stalled that much- I dont do that, I see it done allot, but my personal belief is that they need to be able to move more, so we have walk in shelters. And the chickens....they get to roam AFTER they lay their eggs so I dont have to compete with my dogs in the search for the eggs 
Also- I rather see a dog properly crated and secured in the back of a pick up truck then loose and dancing around with the truck going 70 MPH


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I leave my crates open and this is what happens, still don't know how both of them managed to squeeze in. I crate my dogs when I go out even though they are all housebroken but that way I know they are safe and cannot get in anything and they never complain.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

I promise I will learn to post pictures- I had my three year old with 4 cats and 2 dogs in the large crate the other day- all asleep  with the door wide open


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