# Breeder doesn't place puppies until 16 weeks... is that too old?



## EC8CH (Oct 10, 2011)

I have put a deposit down with a breeder for a Border Terrier. They say that:

"We don't wean our puppies. The mother does. They are all very well socialized by attending dog shows and getting out in public when it is safe to do so."

Because of this they say they don't place until the mother has weaned her pups which they say is complete at around 16 weeks. Which actually works out well for my schedule for being able to take time off and train the puppy when he first arrives.

Does this sound reasonable? I'm only slightly concerned that maybe they just hold onto the pups this long to judge if they are suitable for show dogs and sell the rest as pets. They seem like reputable breeders with decades of experience and achievements with this breed, but the 16 week thing is 8-4 weeks longer than most places hold onto their pups. 

Reading a lot of dog training advice says the the period starting at 12 weeks is important for bonding with humans, so I am wary of the effects of getting a puppy that has spent 4 weeks of this period outside of my family and our training.

Am I being overly worried and suspicious, any advice would be helpful.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

My puppies don't leave here till at least 12 weeks old, with many not leaving till weeks after that due to timing issues. I do this because of shots, I want to make sure that my pups have at least two sets before they are gone. Plus yes the later I sell them the more time I have to evaluate the pups, which isn't a bad thing, its so I know the pups are going to the right place. The people that get my puppies have no trouble with adjusting them to their family. I do let the mothers start to wean off them, but if they don't I don't wait, my puppies are fully weaned by 5-6 weeks. 

I didn't get my youngest weim till she was 4 months old, and she adjusted quite well. The breeder held her because the original owner was being dicey and she decided she didn't want to sell to him any more, so she gave BB to me to show, I co-own her with the breeder, but she lives with me and we pay all expenses.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

EC8CH said:


> I'm only slightly concerned that maybe they just hold onto the pups this long to judge if they are suitable for show dogs and sell the rest as pets.


Why is this concerning? It's my understanding that most show breeders do this. Although they can usually tell before 16 weeks. 

Anyway, if the breeder is socializing the pups and starting their training (I would ask what they do about potty training), I can only see this as a good thing. The pup should be nearly fully potty trained by that age if they're doing it right, so much better for you! And their vaccine series should be done by then so you won't have to worry as much about taking the pup in public.


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## EC8CH (Oct 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> My puppies don't leave here till at least 12 weeks old, with many not leaving till weeks after that due to timing issues..


Thanks for the reassurance. I thought maybe I was being too concerned, but all the training advice stresses all these important periods of time starting at 12 months. 

I can see some advantages of getting a slightly older pup (more mature and ready for house training, etc). So long as they are well socialized at the breeder it seems there shouldn't be any issue training or socializing with my family once we get him.


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## EC8CH (Oct 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Why is this concerning? It's my understanding that most show breeders do this.


I've just read that some people have had issues with timid dogs because they were held at the breeder until 4-6 months to assess their show worthiness and weren't well socialized.

Like you said, if they are well socialized I probably won't have any issues.

Thanks for your advice about what they do about house training during this period. I will ask them what training they do.

And my concern isn't that they judge which dogs are suitable for show dogs, but they may be holding onto them longer than is necessary at the expense of the dog being able to adjust to their permanent home.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Smudge was shipped to me at 14 weeks. He came with all his shots. He had a really good start on potty training wit a substrate preference for grass. He'd transitioned to raw.. but he was weaned 5-7 weeks or so, they didn't wait till later. 

I can't say waiting till 14 weeks did anything for adjusting to my house. Dogs can adjust far later. 16 weeks isn't that late.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Don't get me wrong--I would ask the breeder a lot of questions about what they're doing to make sure the pups are well-socialized and well-trained. I wouldn't want a crummy breeder keeping my puppy in a crate for 16 weeks, letting it go wild and learning how to potty where it sleeps. But if you're sure they're good responsible breeders, there shouldn't be a problem.


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## Firem4nJoe (Oct 10, 2011)

On one hand the earlier your puppy starts socialising with other dogs and people the better. On the other hand several breeders will leave the pup with it's mother for 16 weeks as a lot of the time the pup hasn't finished weaning before 4 months of age.

My dogs were 8 weeks old when I got them from the pound so considering they have to be kept there a certain amount of time before adoption God only knows how young the litter-mates were when they were ripped from their mother. Whether it's a result of that or not I couldn't be certain but at 15 months old both of them still occasionally suckle in their sleep.
Maybe the challenge is to find a well socialised 4 month old pup that's only just come off the teat. The bonus of this is many pups are properly house trained by 4 months, though you still get the occasional accident.

Still, puppies are very demanding so depending on your lifestyle an older dog may be a better option keeping in mind it unfortunately won't be around as long as the pup.

Hope that's of some help.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 4, 2011)

My thought is it depends on the type of dog, the breeder and your unique situation. Everything I have read emphasizes that 12 weeks is when that socialization period comes to an end. 

For me, since I knew that we were getting a sensitive dog that REALLY needs to be socialized well, I wouldn't get one before 12 weeks. I want the control and knowledge that we are exposing him to everything he needs to be exposed to. Our dog is a Vizsla, other breeds that tend to get skittish or aggressive without socialization I would want before 12 weeks, but with a regular labrador retriever, I wouldn't mind at all getting him later. It looks like border terriers on a whole don't seem to have that problem, though I know very little about the breed.

On another note, if you are going to have to work a lot when he/she first comes home it may be better for the breeder to do socialization. This also goes for a breeder you really trust. Some breeders I would trust my puppy to until 16 weeks of age even if I wasn't going to be working. They would probably do a better job than me. 

That's my two cents. I'm sure you will really enjoy your new puppy. Once I put our deposit down, I started to get all these doubts that for some reason did not arise when I was considering putting the money down. I realized that most of these doubts are unfounded and now we are just waiting very anxiously. We get our little guy on 10/28/11


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't see anything wrong with it, if they are properly socialised. If however, the puppies are not properly socialised I wouldn't be buying one. And properly socialised doesn't just mean going to dog shows. Going to dog shows gets them used to being at dog shows. They need to be exposed to as many different environments and noises and people etc before they are 12 weeks old, and I wouldn't buy a 16 week old puppy that has only been going to dog shows.

Also, I wouldn't like it if I paid good money for a puppy from a breeder and didn't get it until 16 weeks. I personally love the puppy stage and the early training, but that's just personal preference of course.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Anyway, if the breeder is socializing the pups and starting their training (I would ask what they do about potty training), I can only see this as a good thing. The pup should be nearly fully potty trained by that age if they're doing it right, so much better for you! And their vaccine series should be done by then so you won't have to worry as much about taking the pup in public.


Almost fully potty trained at 16 weeks in my opinion very mis-leading. not gonna help much when coming to a new home either. I can't imagine potty breaking a litter of pups but would not be afraid to try as long as I was using somebody else's home to do the dirty deed. I have always preferred to start my own pups. 

I also have little faith in others, either in the starting of pups or the telling of what/how they are going to start the pups. I guess too many years in the dog business listening to the different lines of absolute bull has left me with a sour taste in mouth. 

It does not mean that there are not people out there in dog world that don't stretch the truth, just hard to find sometimes. The fun is in the pickin.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

As long as the puppies are being well socialized, environmentally stimulated and handled a lot, it might not be a problem. I don't know Border terriers that well as a breed. I know if you kept a litter of Aussie puppies together for 16 weeks, there would likely be a lot of bullying and spats going on. I gotta say, I never had a mother dog who didn't start weaning when the puppies got teeth. I've only had a few litters but most moms had them completely weaned by 6 weeks (and I never forced weaning) It would not, of course, be safe for puppies much under 12 weeks to go to dog shows so I hope they have an alternate plan. If they are breeding for show and want to hold on to them to evaluate them, I also don't see a problem with that. A show breeder is going to want to keep the best puppy for show, and if you are paying for pet quality, that's what you should be getting. In most breeds the differences between pet quality and show quality are so minor it would take an experienced eye to pick them out. And pet pups should be as sound - physically and mentally as littermates destined for the show ring.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> As long as the puppies are being well socialized, environmentally stimulated and handled a lot, it might not be a problem. I don't know Border terriers that well as a breed. I know if you kept a litter of Aussie puppies together for 16 weeks, there would likely be a lot of bullying and spats going on. I gotta say, I never had a mother dog who didn't start weaning when the puppies got teeth. I've only had a few litters but most moms had them completely weaned by 6 weeks (and I never forced weaning) It would not, of course, be safe for puppies much under 12 weeks to go to dog shows so I hope they have an alternate plan. If they are breeding for show and want to hold on to them to evaluate them, I also don't see a problem with that. A show breeder is going to want to keep the best puppy for show, and if you are paying for pet quality, that's what you should be getting. In most breeds the differences between pet quality and show quality are so minor it would take an experienced eye to pick them out. And pet pups should be as sound - physically and mentally as littermates destined for the show ring.


I did not even want to get into the separating pups end of it as I'm old school and pups were separated at 7 weeks, we were uneducated savages way back then following the 49 day rule. I don't know how the pups ever survived and even worse how some stumbled through and attained a championship. Just very lucky I guess. Maybe function pups are easier and quicker to spot than form pups.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I believe that 12-week breeder socialized pups tend to be sweeter companions. I would ask if they do training, and I'd imagine you'll get a terrific head start on house training... but ask. Finally, one test question that I like - "what happens if I can't take care of the pup and need to give it away." Change the wording a bit, but I've found that good breeders demand that you return the pup if you have any issues. I like the idea of breeders that maintain a sense of responsibility and ownership for their pups.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

A lot of smaller breed breeders don't place puppies until they're older. Some do it based on weight, others by age. It's not that unusual really.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Puppy placement age has a lot of myths associated with it. Most of them come from faulty interpretations of Pfaffenberger and Scott's on "The Relationship between Delayed Socialization and Trainability in Guide Dogs." One of the things they found was if a puppy had NO human interaction before 6 weeks, he would never bond satisfactorily to humans. Not that a puppy had to be in his final home by that time, but that he had to have some human contact at all to recognize that we're a pretty awesome species that's very generous with the handouts.

Hanging on to puppies longer is far preferable to kicking them out the door too soon. Personally, I don't like puppies, so if the breeder is willing to do a month of extra socialization, they're welcome to with my puppy. You do want to make sure that the pups are getting some individual time, one downfall you can run into with older pups like that is they get very secure within the litter and don't develop the ability to be without them. I'd assume that if this is the breeder's policy, they aren't seeing any huge problems showing up once the pups go home, but it doesn't hurt to ask about it. 

The most important thing is that the puppies are properly socialized (exposed to a wide variety of people, places, and things without overwhelming him), it doesn't make a huge amount of difference who does it.

Also, congratulations on the Border Terrier! I love them, they're such charming little dogs.


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## EC8CH (Oct 10, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> Also, congratulations on the Border Terrier! I love them, they're such charming little dogs.


Thanks. They seemed like a good fit for my family. We're planning on calling him Rango.

I'm planning on contacting the breeder and asking them what socializing and training they do at their place, and possibly setting up a time to visit prior to the final pickup date.

I suspected the critical ages where being over emphasized in the training advice, but just wanted to hear other's opinions. I'm just determined to do a good job of training and didn't want to start off on the wrong foot because the dog was held too long at the breeder. I'm not the kind of person who expects to bring a dog home and do no training at all and live with a dog in my home for 10 years.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree with RaeganW about the studies, and I think some may be online now. They're interesting to read how the windows of development work for socialization.

However, I like puppies ... at around 9 weeks ... b/c I like to hypnotize, manipulate, and deceive them into believing that the world is a safe and friendly place.... By the time that they are 6 mos to 1 year and experience otherwise, it's too late.... muhahaha ... my dog even believes that he understands why good things happen to bad people... it's all so reverse-Buddist


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

hanksimon said:


> I agree with RaeganW about the studies, and I think some may be online now. They're interesting to read how the windows of development work for socialization.
> 
> However, I like puppies ... at around 9 weeks ... b/c I like to hypnotize, manipulate, and deceive them into believing that the world is a safe and friendly place.... By the time that they are 6 mos to 1 year and experience otherwise, it's too late.... muhahaha ... my dog even believes that he understands why good things happen to bad people... it's all so reverse-Buddist


Since I know nothing about Buddhist, reverse Buddhist also escapes me. But in the best of worlds if you are gonna have something that will live with you for 10 to whatever years starting your own pup could be an awfully big deal. It's not the only way to get a good dog but it indeed works.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I like them at 12 to 20 weeks of age providing they were socialized well. My absolute favorite age is the "teenager." They tend to compromise and I enjoy the challenge just to see how well I can get into their minds. Potty training in my experience is much easier at this age and that is a huge issue. I want to spend more time obedience training than cleaning up puddles!  ( I actually make sure the pup doesn't have the chance to fail!  )

I think IMO 16 weeks should be perfect!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Buddhism assumes that life is hard, don't fight it, accept the pragmatism and things get better.

Reverse-Buddhism (My own invention) is based on the fact that someone DID tell you that life was easy, and you continue to assert that to be true, in spite of daily evidence to the contrary 

(Correct spelling is usually not optional....)


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## EC8CH (Oct 10, 2011)

Abbylynn said:


> I think IMO 16 weeks should be perfect!


Thanks....


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Our last dog came here at 4 mos 3weeks old. When she got here, she was out of the puppy teeth bite stage and was pretty much housebroken. She is a bit sensitive and at first, when we let her out of her crate, she'd pee if we talked to her so we just let her out and do so quietly. I loved getting a bit of an older puppy.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

What you can do is ask what the breeder does with the pups as far as socializing and handling, does she start them on crates and that sort of thing, and also if you can talk to some people who have older pups from the breeder. I'm guessing there's 4 or so pups in the litter so it's not as bad as if she had 12 to socialize. Does she do things with her own dogs that she keeps besides showing them? If so, then I wouldn't be as worried, she likely has it under control. If you are close enough offer to come socialize and handle the pups too, the breeder might take you up on that.

Lana


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

my girl was 14 weeks when I got her. Not because the breeder wanted to keep her. But that was the time that I contacted the breeder and she only had 2 pups left behind. The rest had left for their new homes. I don't recall what age, but I would bet no younger than 10 weeks. 

Anyway she did fine, the socialization thing went fine. Tne breeder did work on socialization, for example she'd have a friends young child stop by and visit the pups (supervised) and etc. My previous dog was a stray and I got him at 6 months old. he also did just fine. Fortnuatly dogs don't read books and don't know that they are supposed to meet develipmental deadlines at certain ages. Also I have read that dogs go through a second fear stage at a later age (teen years??) and non-stop socialization helps then as well.


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