# Why Breeders feed ProPlan?



## fameb (Mar 27, 2008)

Recently, almost every breeders website I look at. There's a Purina Pro Plan link... 

All these breeders seem responsible, and do tons of health testing, have conformation champions etc. Yet they always seem to have a lttile blurb about Pro Plan and how there dogs thrive on it.

I've seen this on tons of Golden Retriever, Newfoundland and Boxer breeder websites. Let alone the fact that whenever I contact them there guarentees and contracts are void if the puppy is fed something other than Pro Plan.

What's up with this trend? I know Pro Plan is a low quality food that is very grain heavy. And it bothers me to see all these so called quality breeders using this food. The first thing that came to mind is that a lot of shows are sponsored by Purina, and the breeders want to remain in good standing with the company for show reasons? Anybody know anything behind this?


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

A breeder that voids thier contract based on what you feed is NOT a good breeder IMO. Some of the big dogs have sponserships from the different feed companies so they're required to "support" the company. Purina and many of the other big brands give out puppy packs to breeders registered with thier programs. That doesn't necissarly mean the breeders feed these foods to thier dogs on a regular basis. It just means the breeder uses the company for free stuff. Many breeders will instruct thier puppy buyers to ugrade to a better quality food once they're ready to go to adult formulas. Also some dogs may thirve and to very well on a lower quality food, there is no "end all" of dog foods.


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## fameb (Mar 27, 2008)

animalcraker said:


> A breeder that voids thier contract based on what you feed is NOT a good breeder IMO. Some of the big dogs have sponserships from the different feed companies so they're required to "support" the company. Purina and many of the other big brands give out puppy packs to breeders registered with thier programs. That doesn't necissarly mean the breeders feed these foods to thier dogs on a regular basis. It just means the breeder uses the company for free stuff. Many breeders will instruct thier puppy buyers to ugrade to a better quality food once they're ready to go to adult formulas. Also some dogs may thirve and to very well on a lower quality food, there is no "end all" of dog foods.


Thanks for clearing that up. I figured that these breeders are probably sponsored by Purina. It got me thinking the other day. I was flipping through channels and stumbled upon a major dog show that was sponsored and ran by Purina Pro Plan. So I assumed that maybe these breeders want to get on the comapanies good side for show reasons.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Um, like maybe their dogs do well on it?  Ever thought about that? ;-)

I know a ton of breeders whos dogs THRIVE on Pro Plan.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

I *wish* I had a Purina sponsorship. They do exist, by the way, but many breeders' dogs do well on it. My dogs do wonderfully on ProPlan and the results I get, healthwise, are equal to those of breeders who use more expensive foods. My dogs are energetic and free of dandruff, they have nice muscle mass, their coats are shiny, their teeth are clean, and their stools are small. If I had a top winning dog you'd better believe that I'd credit the ProPlan with at least part of my results and try to get a sponsorship--but I'd do it because I already use ProPlan; I would not be feeding ProPlan because I got the sponsorship.


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## Meghan&Pedro (Nov 6, 2006)

Quite a few of the local breeders (reputable too!) in my area find that the Purina Pro Plan formulas feed very well. 

I find that the most common foods fed by breeders of medium and large breed dogs feed:

Eukanuba
Pro Plan
Canidae
Go Natural


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Ice's breeder also feeds ProPlan. All her dogs look fantastic. *shrug*
I think it's kind of extremist to label someone a bad breeder just because of the brand of food they feed their dogs, even if they do everythig else right.

I changed Ice's food when I got her, because I liked Nature's Variety ingredient list better. She had lived for 4 years on ProPlan and was just fine, and to be honest there was never a 'huge change' in her after I switched brands. 

But personally I think anyone who puts in a contract what you can or can't feed the dog you bought from them is a bit of a control freak.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally's breeder put him on Pro Plan also, so that's what he's eating now. 

Health-wise he's doing just fine. His issues have nothing to do with food (oh I wish it were that simple).


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

txcollies said:


> Um, like maybe their dogs do well on it?  Ever thought about that? ;-)
> 
> I know a ton of breeders whos dogs THRIVE on Pro Plan.


Nah, it couldn't be that.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Because many breeders see beyond the hype of premium foods and use what works to win them championships.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> What's up with this trend? I know Pro Plan is a low quality food that is very grain heavy. And it bothers me to see all these so called quality breeders using this food. The first thing that came to mind is that a lot of shows are sponsored by Purina, and the breeders want to remain in good standing with the company for show reasons? Anybody know anything behind this?




If Purina didn't sponsor shows, other feeds would - and frequently do! I have been to shows/trials sponsored by Pedigree, Black Gold & the Iams company. Feed vendors frequently sell their brands @ shows, and it's as much of the spectators purchasing it then the actual handlers ...

Furthermore, it takes good nutrition to get results with working or show dogs. There is no winging it on a poor quality feed when you are in competition. With my own eyes, I have seen Pro Plan/Purina fed dogs both in the show ring and @ field trials. They are in good condition, have good stamina, and are healthy. You can pick out a dog fed PP if you're around enough shows. I do not know of any breeder feeding PP who is doing so because of breeder program perks - they stick with the food because it gives results. It grows their pups well, it delivers in the whelping box. Uterine inertia, eclampsia are just two conditions that can strike a brood bitch on a feed with too much or little calcium. It's been my experience that the holistic designer foods are waaay too high in calcium to maintain the health of a brood bitch. 

BTW, it's the revenue from our registration papers, membership dues to breed clubs that primarily fund the shows & other events.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i feed Purina One to my dogs....have for yrs and don't intend to switch (unless it's to Pro Plan).....the litter of pups my girl had a yr ago were some of the healthiest pups i've seen....mom never "blew coat" or lost any weight from having the litter, pups never had any intestinal problems (loose stools, vomiting, etc)they maintained their weight and grew at a nice steady rate and the vet was extremely impressed w/ their coats, eyes, energy etc each time i took them in (i do 3 vet checks on my litters in the 1st 8 wks to make sure they are growing well)....one of the families that purchased a pup swore by one of the "better" foods but the pup they took home did so poorly on it their vet suggested putting him back on P.O. and he turned completely around.....and another switched "just b/c" and all her dogs are doing great on it....

sorry, IMO, there is no "be all/end all" food out there for every dog.....and all my show huskies and GSD in the past thrived on Pro Plan as well....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Indeed....while I don't like the stuff (all corn IMO) some dogs do very well on it. It's also, logistically, MUCH more cost effective. I know that I couldn't afford to feed 20+ dogs Wellness....it's almost $70 a bag here!


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Westhighlander said:


> Because many breeders see beyond the hype of premium foods and use what works to win them championships.


No, it's called economics, as in CHEAPER to feed. Even dogs fed this, or other foods low in quality (Iams, Science Diet, Purina, etc.) can go to their championships. That doesn't change the facts about low quality food, and high quality foods.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

poodleholic said:


> No, it's called economics, as in CHEAPER to feed. Even dogs fed this, or other foods low in quality (Iams, Science Diet, Purina, etc.) can go to their championships. That doesn't change the facts about low quality food, and high quality foods.


If your dog looks like garbage, you're not winning anything. Maybe Iams, Science Diet, Purina are just not as bad as you think.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> No, it's called economics, as in CHEAPER to feed. Even dogs fed this, or other foods low in quality (Iams, Science Diet, Purina, etc.) can go to their championships. That doesn't change the facts about low quality food, and high quality foods.


Of course, economics play a part in the decision of what to feed. As does convenience. Economics matter when I shop for food for my family, too. But dogs who compete in performance events do not do well, long term, on low quality feed. "Lower quality" may be a more accurate description, but as far as I can see, it would be an opinion based on opinion.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

when i used to show a friend that i had that had shown GSD then started judging them so went to showing GSP and GWP fed all her dogs Purina products....she had some of the most winning dogs of anyone i had ever known at that time, not only in conformation but in the field as well....i think what is "high quality" and what is "low quality" food is just a matter of what does the best for your dog....there are Purina foods that i would not feed my dogs, but i don't think that all Purina products are low quality....i am always being complimented on how great my dogs look and act, so they must be doing just fine on P.O. ...

it's all a matter of opinion


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Here we go.............

I've got a pretty strong dedication to Premium Dog Food. All I'm going to say is that just because your dog looks healthy and wins shows, that dosn't mean it is healthy. I don't agree with many of the ingredients some of the lower quality brands use. I will give Pro Plan the benefit of the doubt, they have some decent top ingredients..... 

BUT MAY I ASK THIS............

WHAT IS ANIMAL DIGEST DOING IN THE INGREDIENTS?!?!?!


For those of you who don't know what Animal Digest is here is the description:
_Animal Digest - material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed.”_

I don't care how much is in the food, I wouldn't want to be feeding my dog "un-decomposed animal tissue"!!! 

And......here's the ingredients list from Purina Pro Plan: (Just so you can all see it...)

Ingredients:
Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), whole grain corn, corn bran, *animal digest*, egg product, fish oil, dicalcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Um, "undecomposed animal tissue" pretty much means fresh meat and connective tissue. People that feed a raw diet pretty much feed "undecomposed animal tissue."


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> Um, "undecomposed animal tissue" pretty much means fresh meat and connective tissue. People that feed a raw diet pretty much feed "undecomposed animal tissue."


UMMMM, that may be true, but who wants to feed their dog tissue from an unspecified source. You could be feeding your dog raccoon tissue for all you know. They aren't required to list where it came from!


I also wouldn't go so far as to say undecomposed animal tissue is fresh meat. Why would they list fresh meat as "animal digest" if it was in their food? Wouldn't you want to list what it was and be proud its in your food?!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Nallah06 said:


> UMMMM, that may be true, but who wants to feed their dog tissue from an unspecified source. You could be feeding your dog raccoon tissue for all you know. They aren't required to list where it came from!


Okay, can you just see Purina employees scouring the roadsides around the plant looking for roadkilled deer, '*****, and 'possums? It's just possible that they prefer more reliable (wrt quality and availability) sources of animal proteins. Still, waste not want not....


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Nallah06 said:


> I've got a pretty strong dedication to Premium Dog Food. All I'm going to say is that just because your dog looks healthy and wins shows, that dosn't mean it is healthy.


Going by that logic, you could say the same to people who's dogs eat raw -- just because it LOOKS like their dog is doing better, doesn't mean anything! =P

How, pray tell, can a dog looking and acting healthy mean _nothing_ in terms of it actually _being_ healthy, in your opinion? That doesn't even make sense. How else do you define 'health'? I think it's ridiculous to look at healthy, vibrant dogs and claim you can tell they're 'secretly sick' based solely on the brand of kibble they eat. 

There has been NO scientific basis for all these claims of how ProPlan is dog poison, sorry. Show me some facts that prove any of these wild accusations. I notice most people who make these claims are not nutritionists, nor do they have any studies that prove the validity of their extremist beliefs about what dogs should or should not be fed.

The natural diet of wild dogs for thousands of years has been human garbage and dead or sick animals (which is what all predators eat, they do not eat the 'choicest' pick of the herd). By that measure, dogs nowadays eat like kings.

However, there ARE certain ingredients that are more efficiently digested, trigger allergies less, etc. So people need to make educated choices based on their dog's needs as to which formula (be it kibble, wet, cooked, or raw) is best for their dog. But the final test is HOW YOUR DOG DOES ON THAT FOOD.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Pai said:


> The natural diet of wild dogs for thousands of years has been human garbage and dead or sick animals (which is what all predators eat, they do not eat the 'choicest' pick of the herd). By that measure, dogs nowadays eat like kings.


Uh oh, the canine world's dirty little secret is out of the bag now.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Just wanted to let you know I'll be back in later tonight to explain why I am so passionate about a good quality nutrition for my dog. 

I have a few errands to run but I will be back.........


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Nallah06 said:


> Just wanted to let you know I'll be back in later tonight to explain why I am so passionate about a good quality nutrition for my dog.


Nobody here believes in _poor_ quality nutrition for their dogs. The many folks that have fed ProPlan for years say their dogs are healthy. Ergo, either your claims are wrong, or they're in denial and their dogs and pups are just 'pretending' to thrive.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Pai said:


> ...their dogs are just 'pretending' to thrive.


So that's what the big stinker is up to? I'm gonna have to have a talk with him.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Nallah06 said:


> UMMMM, that may be true, but who wants to feed their dog tissue from an unspecified source. You could be feeding your dog raccoon tissue for all you know. They aren't required to list where it came from!


LOL There are some raw feeders that *do* feed mink, etc. I'm sure someone has fed '**** before.  And goodness, some people even feed roadkill. ;-)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It kind of seems like the "better" foods are mostly designed for altered pets, not for breeding animals. I've heard so many breeders saying that the premium dog foods don't get them healthy puppies. Purina's been around for 50 years, and a lot of dogs do well on it. I wouldn't recommend the lower-quality Purina foods (Moist 'n' Meaty, Grrravy, Kibbles 'n' Bits, etc.), but Dog Chow and higher seem to agree with a lot of dogs.

BTW---a friend of mine recently switched her dog to Purina Dog Chow from Science Diet (for financial reasons), and he looks A LOT better than he used to. He smells better, too  (he was a VERY smelly dog).


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I think breeders feed these foods because the dogs do well on it...you all know I feed Purina One...I didn't _want_ to feed it at first, the ingredients grossed me out, but I was at my wits end washing soft serve poo out of dogs butt fur, dogs loosing weight, gassing me out of my house...meanwhile driving all over town and spending a small fortune for this food or that food...I tried PO, and I can't argue with results. We used to keep our vet in business single handedly, but we haven't been in over a year now. I don't feed PO because I'm cheap or because I've never heard of or researched premium foods, I feed it because it works. 

That said, contracts that are void if you change foods, no matter what the food, are bs.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Because many breeders see beyond the hype of premium foods and use what works to win them championships.


see to me this is just as bad as someone chastising a breeder for feeding what works for their dog....why if I chose to feed my dog a "premium" food (that works well for them) am I buying into the "hype"?

maybe I'm misreading your post


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

sheltiemom said:


> ...washing soft serve poo out of dogs butt fur....


Thanks for that mental image. That'll stay with me for a while.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Thanks for that mental image.


Any time, any time...


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

pugmom said:


> see to me this is just as bad as someone chastising a breeder for feeding what works for their dog....why if I chose to feed my dog a "premium" food (that works well for them) am I buying into the "hype"?
> 
> maybe I'm misreading your post


We both are, because I feed Nature's Variety. I bought the hype as well trying out a few different hype foods like Wellness, Solid Gold and Innova. All these foods gave my dog very soft poop except for Nature's Variety. She seems to like it and her stools are firm now so I'm not changing it.

This all happened when I first got her and I didn't do that much research and just took the advice of others that premium has to be better. I have since conducted my own research and have not been able to find any scientific evidence that premium foods are better. I am not saying premium foods are inferior to Purina but there isn't any evidence either way. My point is that many people believe that premium foods are better based on nothing but hype where anecdotal evidence clearly points to Purina being better. So just feed whatever works for your dog. I just wanted to point out that believing that Purina is inferior is an illogical conclusion.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> We both are, because I feed Nature's Variety. I bought the hype as well trying out a few different hype foods like Wellness, Solid Gold and Innova. All these foods gave my dog very soft poop except for Nature's Variety. She seems to like it and her stools are firm now so I'm not changing it.
> 
> This all happened when I first got her and I didn't do that much research and just took the advice of others that premium has to be better. I have since conducted my own research and have not been able to find any scientific evidence that premium foods are better. I am not saying premium foods are inferior to Purina but there isn't any evidence either way. My point is that many people believe that premium foods are better based on nothing but hype where anecdotal evidence clearly points to Purina. So just feed whatever works for your dog. I just wanted to point out that believing that Purina is inferior is an illogical conclusion.


I see it as a case by case basis...I started out feeding another "commercial" brand and was ok with how my dogs did on it..until I joint another forum for bully breeds and found out about checking ingredients and how certain things in the food can effect the dogs stool, coat , energy level...so I started trying a few different foods(some of them did not do what I hoped for) before I found one that works for my dogs and looking back I can see a huge difference...so to me its not illogical to think that the food I was using before was inferior for MY dogs...that make sense right?


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Pai said:


> Going by that logic, you could say the same to people who's dogs eat raw -- just because it LOOKS like their dog is doing better, doesn't mean anything! =P
> 
> How, pray tell, can a dog looking and acting healthy mean _nothing_ in terms of it actually _being_ healthy, in your opinion? That doesn't even make sense. How else do you define 'health'? I think it's ridiculous to look at healthy, vibrant dogs and claim you can tell they're 'secretly sick' based solely on the brand of kibble they eat.
> 
> ...


I certainly am not claiming that I can look at a dog and know they are fed A or B kibble. When did I ever say that? And I never said that Pro Plan was poison, SORRY. 

What I am saying, is that just because your dog eats something and they seem healthy, it is not always what is best for them. Wouldn't you want to be giving your dogs the best possible nutrition? I do. And I don't think that some of these foods offer that. 

I completely understand, some dogs have allergies, some dogs have a hard time digesting certain foods, whatever the case may be, but our dogs can't tell us what they need, we have to do that for them. 

What HYPE are we buying into? And by "we" I mean us premium feeders. There are no commercials, there are no gimmicks, there is no hype to buy into. What it is is people who look into whats good for their dogs and want to give them the best nutrition possible. 

In my experience, my dog looks 100x better on Premium kibble then she ever did on anything else I fed her, including: Beneful & Iams. Beneful I know is pretty bad, all the food dies and what not, Iams I thought was top of the line, until I educated myself and found out what dogs need. 

They don't need all that corn and cheap fillers a lot of cheaper brands use. They need meat as their source for protein. Grains were never something dogs initially went after when they're hungry, sure they'd eat it if they absolutely had to, but was that their top choice? NO! 

No, I'm not a nutritionist, but I do have many many hours of research to back up my acqusitions. 

Here is a copy from another forum I am on: (Credit to Sedona)

_CORN AND LOW QUALITY FOODS 
A good indicator that you have a low quality food is the presence of corn. If you are feeding a food you got at a grocery store, chances are you’re feeding your dog mostly corn. Check the ingredients of the food you have or plan on feeding. Is there corn in there? Is it the first ingredient? Why would a dog need corn and meat-less by-products in their food instead of meat? If you ran out of dog food what would you feed your dog? An ear of corn? I hope not. If you have any sense, you’d most likely feed your dog a piece of meat. 

Why do the big companies like Mars (Nutro, Pedigree, Royal Canin). Procter and Gamble (Iams, Eukanuba), and Nestle (Purina, Alpo) think that dogs don’t need any meat? What are candy and toilet paper making companies doing producing dog food anyway? 

A few of you who are reading this are saying to yourself, “I had a dog live 18 years eating food like that and he was just fine.” Most of you that have a story like that have probably already stopped reading this. That’s okay. This is for the few of you that are still with me. A man named Buster Martin has been a beer drinker and smoker nearly his entire life. He’s 101 years old and he just competed in the London Marathon. If you had a dog live for 18 years eating mostly corn that dog is a genetic marvel just like Buster Martin. Most of us aren’t as lucky as Mr. Martin, and most of our dogs won’t be that lucky either. Dogs have very short life spans and providing them with the nutrition they need is an important way to keep them healthy for as long as possible. _

Does this sum it up? 

I understand many of you probably have very healthy, happy dogs and you may feed Purina Pro Plan or something similar, I am merely stating my points and beliefs. I believe in giving my dog what it needs nutritionally, and I believe I can do so with premium kibble. 

Thats all!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I believe the challenge was to link to a scientific study that backs your claims. Interjecting leading questions about which products are produced by other units of the parent companies shed no light at all.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

The corn vilification that many people have is incredible. If it's the main source of *protein* in a food, then yeah, that's not the best. Nobody denies that meat is the best main protein source for dogs. But as a source of *fiber* corn's perfectly fine (Source 1 and Source 2). Just having corn in a food doesn't instantly make it 'bad' unless your dog is allergic to it. However, the most common allergies dogs have are to BEEF and MILK, not grain. Dog nutrition is a _lot_ more than simply 'grain = bad, meat = good'. 

The only cases of dogs actually getting sick or dying from 'store grade' food in over 50 years was from melamine contamination that all came from only ONE dog food company (Menu Foods) which Pro-Plan isn't even a part of. And it wasn't Menu's _ingredient formula_ that got pets sick, it was lack of _quality control_. Also, the fact that the FDA is largely a joke, but that's a totally 'nother issue. =P

Purina has made dog food for over 50 years and has tons of longterm studies and research behind it's brand. If you want to vilify a 'crappy food' brand, ProPlan is the wrong target. They have many years of long lived, healthy dogs proving that they must be doing _something_ right.

*People should feed what their dogs do best on, period.* And they shouldn't get folks jumping down their throats over it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Nallah06 said:


> What I am saying, is that just because your dog eats something and they seem healthy, it is not always what is best for them.


The question, to me, is:

"Is the best absolutely required to keep a dog in optimal health?"

If so - then what's the best (I mean the real best, not what people say is the best, etc) what's the scientific objective definitive best possible food?

If not - then how far down the totem pole is still good enough to keep a dog in strong, active, good health?

I've never seen an answer to either question in all the debates about this I've read on this forum.

In my mind, there's as many variables in it for dogs as it is for people - activity level, job, genes, age, other health considerations, etc.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Willowy said:


> It kind of seems like the "better" foods are mostly designed for altered pets, not for breeding animals. I've heard so many breeders saying that the premium dog foods don't get them healthy puppies. Purina's been around for 50 years, and a lot of dogs do well on it. I wouldn't recommend the lower-quality Purina foods (Moist 'n' Meaty, Grrravy, Kibbles 'n' Bits, etc.), but Dog Chow and higher seem to agree with a lot of dogs.
> 
> BTW---a friend of mine recently switched her dog to Purina Dog Chow from Science Diet (for financial reasons), and he looks A LOT better than he used to. He smells better, too  (he was a VERY smelly dog).


Years ago, my very first litter was mama fed/whelped/raised on Ol' Roy High Pro. I kid you not, those were some of the biggest, fattest, healthiest and happiest pups I have ever seen at birth. 

My parents still feed the old farm mutt Ol'Roy High Pro. She's 15 yeras old and still alive and kickin' and has been eating it since she was a puppy. People used to look at her and go 'wow, she's HOW old'?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

The bigger pet health problem in this country is people _overfeeding_ their dogs, not feeding them the 'wrong' food. It's sad when many people's fit pets get called 'too skinny' by other dog owners because it's becoming rare now for people to know what a non-fat dog even looks like. =P


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## Dad2labs (Jan 25, 2009)

Pai said:


> Purina has made dog food for over 50 years and has tons of longterm studies and research behind it's brand.


Could you point me to some of that research. I have gone through their website and can't find any mention of it. I guess I'm missing it somewhere.



> If you want to vilify a 'crappy food' brand, ProPlan is the wrong target. They have many years of long lived, healthy dogs proving that they must be doing something right.


Are you saying that there is a study claiming that dogs fed ProPlan live longer than and are healtheir than dogs fed other brands?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Nestle-Purina has done many studies working alongside various universities. Here is their 14-year dog nutrition study. So far as I know that's the only lifelong dog feeding study out there (as in, it went on for the entire life of the dogs). But no, I don't ever claim or believe that dogs fed on Purina will 'do better' than dogs fed on other foods. That would be a ridiculous claim to make, seeing as how I've _repeatedly_ admitted that all dogs are different. 

There are other ones they release periodically printed in AVMA journals, not sure if you can read those online or if you need a subscription. Generally you only see the press-release summaries of them on websites or the news.

And btw, I find it really ironic I'm defending a company whose food that I don't even use. I really need to get out more.


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## Dad2labs (Jan 25, 2009)

Pai said:


> Nestle-Purina has done many studies working alongside various universities. So far as I know that's the only lifelong dog feeding study out there (as in, it went on for the entire life of the dogs).


The only thing this study proves is that dogs fed less live longer. It has nothing to do with longevity of ProPlan fed dogs or any other brand. These dogs were fed identically except one group was fed 25% less. This does't prove that ProPlan is any better food than Ol' Roy or Science Diet or any of the other less than ideal diets.

I guess I misunderstood what you said. I thought you indicated they had research proving their product was superior or at least not inferior.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> Are you saying that there is a study claiming that dogs fed ProPlan live longer than and are healtheir than dogs fed other brands?



There was a study done by Purina using several littermate Labrador pups which proved that the lean fed dogs lived an average of 2yrs longer than their littermates who were consuming the then recommended feeding amount. Most of the Labs, even the ones not lean fed, lived to or beyong average life expectancy in their breed ... on Puppy/Dog Chow. 
ETA: Purina has an excellent research & development team and ALL their products are tested at their facilities and in kennels before being placed on the market. Purina has a long history of nutritional advences in canine nutrition ...

Personally, I could care less what the ingredients are. When I obsessed over ingredient labels, I had problems, major ones. Too much calcium in a feed WILL cause inertia problems in a bitch, because blood calcium levels are a precursor to labor. You risk stuck pups (due to inertia) or having to go through a c-section if something as seemingly trivial as the calcium : phosphorous ratio is "off". I don't really care what animal digest is - but I'll tell you this. I used to feed a holistic food called Evolve that contained it. My dogs thrived! When the formula was "improved" and animal digest was removed, most had diarrhea/soft stools, another crapped out a pool of mucousy blood that smelled like something had died in her butt  When I wanted to do a higher protein feed this winter, and since Wellness pup was working ok for my puppers, I tried CORE. I had two dogs go into a hypoglycemic fit. Come to find out that the potatoes in this grain free feed are the cause of blood sugar spikes. Whereas corn, rice, sorghum, oats are grains that do not produce as much of a blood sugar rise - in fact oats & sorghum are known for blood glucose stabilizing properties. So may I ask what food is better? The diet where my bitch had a troublesome labor, thin pups, and almost no milk or the one on Purina where she passed pups (@ 5yrs) like stools and was recovered from the whelping within hours? Is animal digest so bad that when it was included in the feed my dogs had normal bowel movements, when omitted they defecated pure blood? 

If I hear that groudn corn is a filler once more, I'll scream! Corn in a ground form is an easily digestable source of B vitamins, lutein, amino acids. I prefer corn and animal fat based feeds for coat. While chicken fat and other "better" grains usually do not give the dogs as thick or full or glossy of a coat. 

It's not possible for one to get good results from a junk food. If the feed is poor quality & the animal cannot utilize it, you will immediately see a breakdown in health. If one chooses to feed a holistic feed because their dog does well on it - great! What I do not understand is the mentality wherein some of the overzealous holistic foods people shove their opinions down everyone else's throat. Especially considering ALL kibble is processed, there is no one feed that is more natural than another. If you want natural, do cooked or raw. Otherwise, the best kibble is the one that works for the dog. There are no better brands. There are fads and nothing more. Personally, I'd rather feed all the animal digest in the world that use a product such as Evo with a carb source known to cause blood sugar spikes but still has a carb level similar to feeds such as Eukanuba, Purina - and a calcium, phoshporous level that is just off the charts, almost double the recommended daily allowance. The long term ramifications of feeding a diet with such a high phos content is more of a risk than I am willing to take. The last time I checked, excess phos is filtered through the kidneys and will place a strain the kidneys. 
I fed CORE for 2 weeks yet we saw ramifications even in that short period. A blood sugar level of 38, high BUN and cholesterol levels and excessive thirst. Yet the CORE mineral content is far lower than the other grain free feeds. To me, those are the dangerous foods. My dogs have never been affected by "icky" ingredients but in the real world, kidney function will break down if strained long enough. I'll take my chances with yucky Purina, and really would appreciate if some here would GET OVER IT when another board member feeds something they personally do not find appealing.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Dad2labs said:


> The only thing this study proves is that dogs fed less live longer. It has nothing to do with longevity of ProPlan fed dogs or any other brand. These dogs were fed identically except one group was fed 25% less. This does't prove that ProPlan is any better food than Ol' Roy or Science Diet or any of the other less than ideal diets.


The dogs were all eating Purina food for their entire lives. So... it says something.


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## Dad2labs (Jan 25, 2009)

Pai said:


> The dogs were all eating Purina food for their entire lives. So... it says something.


I don't think it says a thing except when you feed less of a crappy food to a dog he lives longer.

I am on several dog lists and I must admit this one is unique because of the unusual number of people who brag about and are proud of feeding their dogs an inferior diet.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Dad2labs said:


> I am on several dog lists and I must admit this one is unique because of the unusual number of people who brag about and are proud of feeding their dogs an inferior diet.


From the side that has exactly ZERO science backing up their definition of 'inferior'. 

Lean-fed dogs live longer because most people in the U.S. overfeed their dogs, period. The brand has nothing to do with it. What brand _does_ have to do with it, is the fact that dogs lived long, healthy lives on Purina. That's a *fact-based reality* that all other *faith-based opinions* about dog food cannot argue with. 

Nutrition is a science, not a religion, so back up your opinions with facts, studies, or research. If you don't have any, stop looking down your nose at everyone who doesn't feed their dogs the same as you, because that's basically being a bigot. And it just stirs up the same old circular arguments on the forums over and over. Which I'm too much of a masochist to avoid. =P


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## Dad2labs (Jan 25, 2009)

Pai said:


> From the side that has exactly ZERO science backing up their definition of 'inferior'.


 *Superior*...................*Inferior*
Good ingredients.........Poor ingredients
More meat.................More carbs
No grain....................grain
Less fillers..................More fillers


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Of course, economics play a part in the decision of what to feed. As does convenience. Economics matter when I shop for food for my family, too. But dogs who compete in performance events do not do well, long term, on low quality feed. "Lower quality" may be a more accurate description, but as far as I can see, it would be an opinion based on opinion.


I was thinking in terms of dogs who compete in the conformation ring and achieving their championships. Performance dogs winning titles is a different story. However, even people who eat nothing but junk food can look just fine, and function, for many years before it takes it's toll. The same is true for dogs.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Dad2labs said:


> *Superior*...................*Inferior*
> Good ingredients.........Poor ingredients
> More meat.................More carbs
> No grain....................grain
> Less fillers..................More fillers


All that is, is a chart illustrating your belief system.



> *Science *(from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge" or "knowing") is the effort to discover and increase human understanding of how physical reality works. Using controlled methods, scientists collect data in the form of observations, records of observable physical evidence of natural phenomena, and analyze this information to construct theoretical explanations of how things work. Knowledge in science is gained through research.


Like I said, show some facts that PROVE your beliefs that Purina is garbage. We already know what your _opinions_ are.


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## Dad2labs (Jan 25, 2009)

Pai said:


> All that is, is a chart illustrating your belief system.
> Like I said, show some facts that PROVE your beliefs. We already know what your _opinions_ are.


I asked you for proof first and all you could come up with was the comical "study" which took 14 years to prove thin dogs live longer than fat dogs. I could have saved them lots of time and money and told them that up front.

There is one more Purina study you haven't mentioned yet. They have done it several times. It proved that a 3 out of 4 dogs can live 6 months on their products and end up in "reasonably good" health having lost no more than 15% of their body weight. Man that makes me want to feed Purina.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

As opposed the side that can come up with _nothing _but baseless accusations. The part of this thread where dogs that eat Purina who look and act healthy were accused of 'faking it' was my favorite.

Oh, I also linked to two studies saying corn was okay, don't forget those. 

As fun as this was, it gets boring when one side demands facts given to them, but then turns up their nose and refuses to play by their own rules. It's not _my _fault if your belief system has no actual research supporting it. 

I just find it interesting how how people who are not 'premium food' feeders tend not to be judgmental of others who feed their dogs differently, but that it happens quite a bit the _other_ way around.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Dad2labs said:


> There is one more Purina study you haven't mentioned yet. They have done it several times. It proved that a 3 out of 4 dogs can live 6 months on their products and end up in "reasonably good" health having lost no more than 15% of their body weight. Man that makes me want to feed Purina.


Well considering Wally's been on Purina his whole 21 months of his life and is in better than reasonably good health - I'm beyond satisfied.

No problems with his weight, energy, or stamina. No health problems.

Guess it's not this horrible "feed this to your dog and watch him die" food, even if it's not $60 a bag


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## SaveStrayDogs (Feb 4, 2009)

I believe that pro plan and ONE are very good dry foods.
I switched my dog to pro plan salmon & rice and i see big defference.orijen,acana,eagle pack had no very good results on my dog.
I ' ll trust purina cause its a company with experience and a good *name* on the market.
Today i bought purina ONE lamb & rice too.I 'll keep my dog on purina.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> I was thinking in terms of dogs who compete in the conformation ring and achieving their championships. Performance dogs winning titles is a different story.


We were talking about "low quality foods" and the thread title specifically refers to Pro Plan. Pro Plan is pretty darned popular with hunt testers and field trialers. Many of these folks breed train and compete, and know what works for hard working maniacs. Many are extremely knowledgeable about canine nutrition (much more than I am).

Lab Daddy: don't ya just hate it when people make outlandish claims that are not just unsupported, but unsupportable? I know I do.



Dad2labs said:


> It has been proven that dogs fed a noncommercial diet live longer than dogs fed commercial diets both kibble and canned.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Dad2labs said:


> I don't think it says a thing except when you feed less of a crappy food to a dog he lives longer.
> 
> I am on several dog lists and I must admit this one is unique because of the unusual number of people who brag about and are proud of feeding their dogs an inferior diet.


Dad2labs- I couldn't agree more. 

I am on several forums and this one is tough. 

*Pai-You saideople should feed what their dogs do best on, period.*

I thought this was about what our dogs do best on? Why are you so diligent about having Scientific Proof that one food is better than the other when you don't even care about ingredients in the first place._EDIT: URBAN BEAGLES was the one who didn't care about ingredients... _Its supposed to be about "what our dogs to best on, period." QUOTE UNQUOTE.

All I'm saying is MY dog does better on a premium diet that consists of more of the things she needs nutrition wise. She dosn't NEED corn in her food, why am I going to give it to her?? She needs other things more, like meat and less or no grains. DOGS WERE NOT MEANT TO EAT GRAINS!!!!!!!! They _will,_ but they were not meant to be a _primary_ source for nutrition. 

If you want me to go into my whole theory on why dogs need meat and not grains, I will. But thats a whole different argument that I"m sure will get a rise out of MOST of you. 

Let me ask you this........

Why does Wellness Core come up as a 6 star food on www.dogfoodanalysis.com 

and Purina Pro Plan comes up as a 1 star food???

Explain to me how this isn't proof that this food is inferior? ITS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST!!!!!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Nallah06 said:


> Let me ask you this........
> 
> Why does Wellness Core come up as a 6 star food on www.dogfoodanalysis.com
> 
> ...


Tell me you're joking. Please tell me you're joking.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Nope, pretty sure I'm not joking..........

And thank you for ignoring the rest of my post and slamming me because its not SCIENTIFIC PROOF. It lists all the facts about WHY its a bad food and WHY its not recommended!! 

I'm only playing the game.....


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Nallah06 said:


> Nope, pretty sure I'm not joking..........
> 
> And thank you for ignoring the rest of my post and slamming me because its not SCIENTIFIC PROOF.


I wasn't slamming you because it's not scientific proof (it's not), and I'm still not convinced that you are being serious. "Dog food analysis" is a website produced by people with a view about dog food. As others have said, I have no problem with what you feed your dog as long as he/she is healthy. I don't even have a problem with your personal opinion about "inferior" dog foods. I merely want to give those who may be in the process of forming an opinion a chance to resist the cockeyed claims made by people who have an extreme bias against commercial feeds.

The results that matter are how your dog thrives on a particular diet. Lots of sedentary or moderately active dogs will do great on a wide variety of diets. Dogs who work hard will put dietary claims to a test that many of those claims will not stand up to. That is, as they say, "where the rubber meets the road".

To all those who think Purina in general, and Pro Plan in particular, is junk food, I again ask the question: WHAT DO(ES) YOUR DOG(S) DO FOR A LIVING?


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Marsh Puppet-

I was and am serious. I realize this website was created by some people with opinions, but I believe their opinions are very thorough and realistic. They go into detail about why certain ingredients are "not so good" and why this food may be good or bad. 

Its a matter of opinion. 

I have no problem with people feeding their dogs whatever they choose, as long as their dogs are happy and healthy. If you choose to feed Pro Plan or Beneful or Iams or Ol' Roy, so be it. Its clearly none of my business. I understand that some dogs may do better on certain foods, those certain foods may be what I consider less that desirable nutrition wise. Its only my opinion. 

If you truely believe you are doing the best for your dog and like I said, your dog is happy & Healthy-more power to you. 

But please don't criticize me or tell me that I know nothing about nutrition just for feeding something you believe is all a bunch of HYPE. I could say the same thing about your food. 

I have fed many of the brands that I refuse to now to my dogs. My dogs all got grocery store food while I was growing up. I didn't know any better. 

I think that we all need to work together and help new dog owners understand what good nutrition is and how to look for signs of a healthy dog. To me, a healthy dog, no matter what it does all day is this: 

Energetic
Glowing from within
Bright & Alert Eyes
Trim & Lean
Happy

If you get that from whatever food you are feeding, great. _But I will choose to give my dogs what I believe is better for them. _ I don't ever try and shove it down someone's throat that I feed "better" food than them. 

My main goal is to educate those who don't know what they should look for in a food, and what they should stay away from. 

Make Sense?

Oh, and to answer your last question.......

Nallah comes to work with me everyday and she has a Dock Dogs Career.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Nallah06 said:


> A man named Buster Martin has been a beer drinker and smoker nearly his entire life. He’s 101 years old and he just competed in the London Marathon. If you had a dog live for 18 years eating mostly corn that dog is a genetic marvel just like Buster Martin. Most of us aren’t as lucky as Mr. Martin, and most of our dogs won’t be that lucky either.


to that i would have to say that there are a lot of "genetic marvels" out there considering there are tons of dogs that have lived well into their teens and beyond on Purina foods.....

nobody here has said that Purina is a superior food to the premium foods...what people _have_ said, is that, when they have tried the "better" foods (like myself) their dogs did not do as well on them and that people should feed the food that is best for their dog/s.....no one is bashing premium kibble but i do see a lot of people bashing the Purina products just b/c they don't choose to feed them....one thing i have always gotten on edge about is people telling me that "i'm killing my dogs" b/c i don't feed them what they think is best for them.....i think it is proof positive, thru trial and error, that i know what food my dog/s do best on....if i had found a food that they did better on that was "premium" you can bet your bottom dollar they'd be on it.....

and, there are are many performance dogs out there that compete for many yrs and win (agility, field, herding, etc) that are fed nothing but Purina all their lives.....i think that says something for the foods.....

talked w/ some people a couple yrs ago that fed their dogs "premium" foods...tried one for 6 mo, 2 of the 3 dogs had problems, tried another--they all had problems; another, same thing; went to raw, they did good for about the 1st mo, then their weight dropped; so, they tried Pro Plan and 8 mo later, they were still feeding it and their dogs looked great.....hmmmm, must be the crappy ingredients in there....


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## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

I used to feed Purina, but I found out my dog was allergic to some of the stuff in there, so we switched.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Nallah06 said:


> My main goal is to educate those who don't know what they should look for in a food, and what they should stay away from.
> 
> Make Sense?


And my point is that you can't educate by making counter-factual claims.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> To all those who think Purina in general, and Pro Plan in particular, is junk food, I again ask the question: WHAT DO(ES) YOUR DOG(S) DO FOR A LIVING?


Well, my dogs help me around the house, my (adult) female helps me get dressed sometimes when my thumb joints (destroyed and need joint replacements) are burning and causing me so much pain that I cannot use my hands to do anything, they take out the garbage to the back gate next to the alley, find and bring me my purse, my keys, the remote, the phone, their leashes, and numerous things I only need ask for by name, and others that I point to. I don't feed Purina or Pro Plan because of what I've learned about their ingredients, and what that means. I feed EVO along with fresh meats, and other wholesome foods meant for human consumption. I have a 27-yr. old cat who has never eaten cat food, and who was only immunized as a kitten. I think that says a lot. I don't want my dogs eating dog food containing meat byproducts, and dead, dieing, and diseased animals, including road kill, and the crap from the floor in meat packing plants, not to mention horses, and dead dogs and cats.


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## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

poodleholic said:


> Well, my dogs help me around the house, my (adult) female helps me get dressed sometimes when my thumb joints (destroyed and need joint replacements) are burning and causing me so much pain that I cannot use my hands to do anything, they take out the garbage to the back gate next to the alley, find and bring me my purse, my keys, the remote, the phone, their leashes, and numerous things I only need ask for by name, and others that I point to. I don't feed Purina or Pro Plan because of what I've learned about their ingredients, and what that means. I feed EVO along with fresh meats, and other wholesome foods meant for human consumption. I have a 27-yr. old cat who has never eaten cat food, and who was only immunized as a kitten. I think that says a lot. I don't want my dogs eating dog food containing meat byproducts, and dead, dieing, and diseased animals, including road kill, and the crap from the floor in meat packing plants, not to mention horses, and dead dogs and cats.


Whoa! I didn't know meat by-products were all that!


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

WHAT DO(ES) YOUR DOG(S) DO FOR A LIVING? 

Agility and Rally O.

Most of the Agility people I have met feed their dogs something along the lines of Wellness, Solid Gold, Natural Balance, Innova, raw, etc. (as do I, on a rotation). I haven't met as many serious Rally O competitors yet, but it seems the ones I have met who aren't that serious about it, or who aren't also involved in some other more physically demanding dog sport tend towards feeding Purina, Science Diet, Nutro, etc.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

PureMutt said:


> Whoa! I didn't know meat by-products were all that!


They aren't.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> They aren't.




It sure can be. AAFCO has no rules or restrictions on these things being put into pet food. Here's a description of what Meat By Products can consist of by law:

_The definition for meat by-products by the Association of American Feed Control Officials is:

The non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto._


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Nallah06 said:


> It sure can be. AAFCO has no rules or restrictions on these things being put into pet food. Here's a description of what Meat By Products can consist of by law:
> 
> _The definition for meat by-products by the Association of American Feed Control Officials is:
> 
> The non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto._


"Can be" does not equal "is." I "could be" hit by a car every time I cross the street, but to date I remain unhit. Most, if not all, of the rumors about the horrible things contained in by-products are just that--rumors--started by people who, for one reason or another, have an agenda against the product being sold.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> "Can be" does not equal "is." I "could be" hit by a car every time I cross the street, but to date I remain unhit. Most, if not all, of the rumors about the horrible things contained in by-products are just that--rumors--started by people who, for one reason or another, have an agenda against the product being sold.



And your dog "could be" eating some mystery part. Thats what bothers me. I have no agenda against what ever you choose to feed your dog, I am only stating the facts. The facts are listed above, there's no going around it. There very well may be rumors about what is actually in By-products, but from that definition alone (directly from AAFCO)...I choose not to feed anything listing Meat By-produt.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Nallah06 said:


> And your dog "could be" eating some mystery part. Thats what bothers me. I have no agenda against what ever you choose to feed your dog, I am only stating the facts. The facts are listed above, there's no going around it. There very well may be rumors about what is actually in By-products, but from that definition alone (directly from AAFCO)...I choose not to feed anything listing Meat By-produt.


I'm with you! Mystery meat and other ingredients hold no appeal, and why feed it when there are many healthy alternatives available. As for those who want to feed this stuff, fine. I simply prefer to provide the most healthy food available to my dogs and cats.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Nallah06 said:


> And your dog "could be" eating some mystery part. Thats what bothers me. I have no agenda against what ever you choose to feed your dog, I am only stating the facts. The facts are listed above, there's no going around it. There very well may be rumors about what is actually in By-products, but from that definition alone (directly from AAFCO)...I choose not to feed anything listing Meat By-produt.


There is no reason to trust *any *labeling. Any food can contain mystery products at any time. Do you eat hamburgers from fast food restaurants? There was a long-standing rumor that McDonald's use all different kinds of non-cow-related meat in their hamburgers. Do you eat hot dogs? Do I need to repeat the rumors about them? Do you know how your local restaurants handle meat? I knew of (and worked at, for a time) a restaurant that would separate frozen foods by slamming unprotected cuts of meat onto the tiled kitchen floor, which was usually filthy from use.

I'm fine with feeding ProPlan. Purina has been in business for so long because they have good practices and dogs do well on their foods. The only way to be entirely sure of what is "in" a food is to raise the meat yourself, slaughter it yourself, and feed it yourself, to your own animals.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> I'm fine with feeding ProPlan. Purina has been in business for so long because they have good practices and dogs do well on their foods. The only way to be entirely sure of what is "in" a food is to raise the meat yourself, slaughter it yourself, and feed it yourself, to your own animals.


And thats your decision. I have no problem with it, I just want to state to others what I believe in, just as you are doing.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Nallah06 said:


> And thats your decision. I have no problem with it, I just want to state to others what I believe in, just as you are doing.


Agreed, but in a thread that is about a specific food, making vehement claims about the dangers of all kibble but the kind of which you approve is just bad form. I believe in debate of all kinds, but debate is no place for "absolute" or black-and-white statements. There are ways of stating an opinion that do not insult others or condemn their choices. No food is perfect for every dog. My collie did poorly on Evo and thrives on ProPlan. It all depends on "it depends."


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## Dad2labs (Jan 25, 2009)

Pai said:


> Oh, I also linked to two studies saying corn was okay, don't forget those.


Actually I did miss those. I went back and looked. Source1 is a study the quality of dog feces. Seems the study says that corn makes a good fiberous material. Fiber in a diet is undigestable material. Corn makes more feces, hence corn is basically undigestable. Source2 agrees and says that corn makes good fiber (undigestable material) and is on par with dried beep pulp. Neither of these two studies are saying that corn is a great nutritious ingredient in dog food.



> As fun as this was, it gets boring when one side demands facts given to them, but then turns up their nose and refuses to play by their own rules. It's not _my _fault if your belief system has no actual research supporting it. Its a filler.


Since it seems that neither of us can come up with meaningful research, there is something else that is very important, actually critical in this discussion and that is logic and reason. I have both of those on my side. 

[/quote]I just find it interesting how how people who are not 'premium food' feeders tend not to be judgmental of others who feed their dogs differently, but that it happens quite a bit the _other_ way around.[/QUOTE]

Well, stop and think about it. People who feed inferior food have no reason to be judgemental of superior foods. Its like people who drive 10 year old junk cars aren't judgemental of the new cars that people drive.



KBLover said:


> Well considering Wally's been on Purina his whole 21 months of his life and is in better than reasonably good health - I'm beyond satisfied.


Cool, 21 months is not much time for problems to show up yet.



SaveStrayDogs said:


> I ' ll trust purina cause its a company with experience and a good *name* on the market.


So you base your decision on the marketing department, huh? Purina is not a "good " name in the dog food market. Its a good name in TV and magazine ads.



Marsh Muppet said:


> Pro Plan is pretty darned popular with hunt testers and field trialers.


Ol' Roy is the best selling dog food in the world. Doesn't make it a good food.

Lab Daddy: don't ya just hate it when people make outlandish claims that are not just unsupported, but unsupportable? I know I do.[/QUOTE]

Outlandish claims? Unsupported? Unsupportable? Hehe Take a look at this: http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf



LoupGarouTFTs said:


> Most, if not all, of the rumors about the horrible things contained in by-products are just that--rumors--started by people who, for one reason or another, have an agenda against the product being sold.


Here is some information you might be interested in. 
"_Our trucks operate daily, on regular routes, collecting discarded fat and bone trimmings, meat scraps, entire animal carcasses, and even used restaurant frying oils. Raw material is collected from butcher shops, restaurants, supermarkets, farmers, ranchers, poultry processors and others. This regular pick-up service is essential to the public health. Only about 58% of the average steer, for example, is sold and used for food. The remaining 42% is recycled into usable products._" 
http://www.rothsay.ca/render.html

Here is some more info: http://www.preciouspets.org/rendering.htm


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> Agreed, but in a thread that is about a specific food, making vehement claims about the dangers of all kibble but the kind of which you approve is just bad form. I believe in debate of all kinds, but debate is no place for "absolute" or black-and-white statements. There are ways of stating an opinion that do not insult others or condemn their choices. No food is perfect for every dog. My collie did poorly on Evo and thrives on ProPlan. It all depends on "it depends."



How is stating the facts insulting? Because its the truth? I'm sorry for speaking the truth. I have no black and white statements. I will feed my dog what I deem is healthy and appropriate for her. And you will do the same. All I'm doing is a little research and pointing out some of the facts that have me make the decision I do. It may be enough to change some one else's opinion and it may be enough to tork somebody else off. Which I can see I've already done. 

I never once made a vehement statement about "all kibble but the kind of which I approve of". There are MANY MANY kibbles out there that I would be more than happy to feed my dog, Purina Pro Plan is not one of them. Yep, I have found one that meets my requirements for what I deem healthy for my dog and she loves it. I've done my job. And you should be happy for me. 

If whatever you feed your dog works.......GOOD FOR YOU. I have nothing bad to say about that......I just may be a little more picky about what I feed.


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## fameb (Mar 27, 2008)

Jeez, I had no idea this thread would turn into such a heated debate over Premium Foods and Commercial Foods.

All I was wondering was why Pro Plan is the choice for so many breeders. When it was under my assumption that good breeders usually go for a higher quality nutrition. I was confused, and started to think that there's something different about Pro Plan that makes the breeders go this route.

Anyway, you all answered my questions and concerns. I personally have always fed what I felt was a higher quality diet. Even if Corn, grains, fillers etc. could be good for my dog. I prefer not to experiment with that, just because of the doubts and research I have done. In my eyes "better safe than sorry". I'll never disrespect anyone else's opinion though, and would never think there a bad owner because they feed something like Pro Plan. IF it's what they believe in and are comfortable feeding then I am happy.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

fameb said:


> Jeez, I had no idea this thread would turn into such a heated debate over Premium Foods and Commercial Foods.
> 
> All I was wondering was why Pro Plan is the choice for so many breeders. When it was under my assumption that good breeders usually go for a higher quality nutrition. I was confused, and started to think that there's something different about Pro Plan that makes the breeders go this route.
> 
> Anyway, you all answered my questions and concerns. I personally have always fed what I felt was a higher quality diet. Even if Corn, grains, fillers etc. could be good for my dog. I prefer not to experiment with that, just because of the doubts and research I have done. In my eyes "better safe than sorry". I'll never disrespect anyone else's opinion though, and would never think there a bad owner because they feed something like Pro Plan. IF it's what they believe in and are comfortable feeding then I am happy.


jeez, see what you started?....we oughta take you out behind the shed and give you a whoopin'.....shame on you ....no, this and a few other things are definitely always extreme on the debate.....

but, as for what peoples dogs do?....mine are out running and playing ball for anywhere from 1 hr (winter time when it's too dang cold out) to 3 hrs (as long as we have a pool handy to let them cool off in.....i run some agility training w/ them (haven't gotten into competition yet as finances haven't allowed for such but this summer we will be starting that, along w/ rally), in the fall/early winter, on top of the play and training, they are out goosing (which entails running the perimeter of the ponds, swimming for sometimes 1/2 hr and sometimes in extremely cold water, and running fields) for anywhere from 1/2 hr to 3 hrs depending on how many geese and where....

all in all i think they lead a pretty active life and they are fed _Purina One_......

coats....shiny, soft and lush
eyes....bright, expressive and clear (have never had a discharge of any sort)
vet visits....once a yr for annual check up/heartworm check

they have never had anything more than a 3 day run of KC 1 time.....


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Really, here is a quote from a veterinary professor that sums up this entire ridiculous debate:


> The nutritional requirements of neutered, sedentary adult animals are so low that they could be met by anything.


And most people's dogs in this country are _not_ athletes or working dogs.

*The only real, scientifically documented health problems releated to dog food in this country is overfeeding.* _Not_ people feeding 'non premium' food. 

Everyone is free to feed their dogs whatever they wish. Just as some people buy only organic, other only want certain recipes in their dog food. Others cook for their dogs. More power to them! *For over 50 years, people have done that, and during that long length of time there has been a grand total of ZERO factual evidence that backs of food-faddist claims that non-premium kibble sickens dogs.* There is no way to dance around that fact, try as hard as you might. 

Everyone's entitled to their beliefs, but also, people should be respectful of others and not constantly on some wierd religious crusade to bash others over the head with their personal opinions about what kind of dog food they should buy.


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## heat_2008 (Feb 10, 2009)

I wanted to read the entirety of this thread, I really did...but I decided it was taking too long and it was time to post. Besides I've read enough to get the main idea of whats going on.

I feed my dog Innova. Why? Well long before I got my puppy I decided to do some research on dog food because damn there is a lot of choices. So after some searching I decided I was going to feed my dog a holistic dog food. Basically any dog food you find in a grocery store is NOT holistic so that should give most of you an idea of what brands. Yes purina is included. My reason for this is based soley on the ingredients and what they do to dogs. 

So non holistic, I'll call them "grocery store foods" tend to have grain or meat by product as the main 2 ingredients and using by product as the main protien is bad. 

_Byproducts of any type are less desirable and only acceptable if they do not make up the main source of animal protein and if the name of the species used is also defined in some manner (e.g. "chicken byproducts" or "beef byproducts" but not "meat byproducts" or "poultry byproducts"). Byproducts consist of anything but the quality cuts of meat and highest quality edible offal used for human consumption. What this means (on a market with high demand for human snacks like "buffalo wings" and cheaper pet foods requiring flavoring agents like beef or chicken liver digest to make otherwise uninteresting food more attractive), I leave to your imagination._

here for more info

I personally don't want my dog eating anything I wouldn't eat and I know 100% I would not eat animal by product. After researching various brands I ended up going with Nutro. I fed her that for a while then I came across a site and found out that Nutro food was supposedly killing dogs a few years back. So I changed her to Innova. I like the ingrediants and I know it's made from a good manufactoror. I'm not saying these grocery store brands are bad food or that breeders and showers dont know what they're talking about but I wouldn't eat the stuff so my dog won't either.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

heat_2008 said:


> I personally don't want my dog eating anything I wouldn't eat and I know 100% I would not eat animal by product.


I should tell you about what my dog did when he found a dead 'possum with a litter of dead baby 'possums still clinging to it's fur. I would have let him go to town if I had some reasonable idea of how and when the tragic events had occurred. It seemed to totally agree with him though.


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## heat_2008 (Feb 10, 2009)

I know full well a dog will eat almost anything, _heck_ a dog will eat _crap_ if you let it. The point is I know whats in the food and I wouldn't want my dog eating it. Even if I were to feed my dog actual raw meat I'd give it choice pieces, not the _crappy_ ones.

For me its not about what the dog is willing to eat (which in most cases is pretty much anything), it's about what is best for my dog to eat. Different parts of animals have different nutritional values and animal by products have next to none.

Oh and about that opposum, if you had let it eat it...assuming it just died due to uh natural causes. I'm willing to bet there are certain parts of the animal your dog would not have eaten. Then again it may have left nothing, some people eat pig testies but that don't mean I'm gonna eat _balls_ too.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

speaking of "eating crap"......when i had my dogs on Canidae and Natural Balance they took to eating the crap of other dogs....they _don't_ do this on P.O. .....what were they missing in the other foods that they felt they had to "suppliment"?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

tirluc said:


> speaking of "eating crap"......when i had my dogs on Canidae and Natural Balance they took to eating the crap of other dogs....they _don't_ do this on P.O. .....what were they missing in the other foods that they felt they had to "suppliment"?


I don't think every dog that eats poo is doing it because they "need" something in there diet.....I think they eat it because they are dogs and it smells good....

Were they eating poo of strange dogs or other dogs you own?


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

From Pro-Plan to Poo...Classic dogforums thread progression.


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## heat_2008 (Feb 10, 2009)

tirluc said:


> speaking of "eating crap"......when i had my dogs on Canidae and Natural Balance they took to eating the crap of other dogs....they _don't_ do this on P.O. .....what were they missing in the other foods that they felt they had to "suppliment"?


Crap, that is what they were missing...why else would they eat it 

I kid, I kid

*cough*

Actually a lot of dogs simply like poop. I watched a dog at work take a nice little crap, 2 seconds later he had ate it...forever to be knows as buddy the poop eater, by me at least.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> From Pro-Plan to Poo...Classic dogforums thread progression.


I think is just plain old digestion.....you start with pro-plan and eventually your going to end up with poo  LOL


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

heat_2008 said:


> Crap, that is what they were missing...why else would they eat it
> 
> I kid, I kid
> 
> ...


My dogs have never been stool eaters; however, when I switched from ProPlan to Chicken Soup my dogs started getting "soft serve" stools that smelled like chicken. All of a sudden, every single one of them were eating stools--even running over to the other dogs when they were pooping. *sigh* After a month of waiting for the stools to harden and hoping for a return to normalcy, I gave up on Chicken Soup after that and went back to ProPlan. I've occasionally tried other foods, but I'm happy with the results I get now, so I've pretty much decided to stick with it.


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## heat_2008 (Feb 10, 2009)

Really? Hmm one of my co workers uses doggie campels and loves it. I'm no dog expert but from what I hear if your dog has gotten use to a particular food and you switch it can upset their stomachs, but if pro plan has been working for you then I see no reason for you to switch anyway. I still don't like and I won't feed my dog anything other than Innova.

I use to use Nutro, she'd eat it but she was never really enthusiastic about it. I found out some shady things had went on with Nutro and switched her to Innova. The first time I gave it to her she looked at me like OMG what did I do to deserve this greatness...then she devoured the food. It made me feel kind of bad really, I went out and got Nutro which is a relatively expensive food and shes eating the Innova like it's her last meal on earth. Innova isn't cheap either but it makes me wonder about Nutro.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

No, my dogs don't get upset stomachs or loose stools from switching foods. In addition to ProPlan I occasionally cook for them and they will get raw eggs scrambled in milk and other things like raw carrots and apples in their Kongs. On the rare occasions that I've had to give them other food because of being unable to get ProPlan when I run out of a bag, even switching suddenly has never bothered them at all. TFTs, in my experience, tend to be garbage disposals anyway, so the whole Chicken Soup thing left me completely confused.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

pugmom said:


> I don't think every dog that eats poo is doing it because they "need" something in there diet.....I think they eat it because they are dogs and it smells good....
> 
> Were they eating poo of strange dogs or other dogs you own?


they were eating the poop from other dogs of friends that i know that feed a "lesser" food.....full of grains (Dog Chow, K & B, Pedigree, etc)



heat_2008 said:


> I'm no dog expert but from what I hear if your dog has gotten use to a particular food and you switch it can upset their stomachs


this i already know and i also have dogs that switch from food to food w/out problems....but, you'd think that after almost 5 mo the switch would be complete....


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## heat_2008 (Feb 10, 2009)

Ah I see, well sounds like pro plan works just fine for you and thats all that matters. 

I don't know too much about the raw stuff, never really looked into it...even if I did I'm too lazy to do all that stuff lol.


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## SaveStrayDogs (Feb 4, 2009)

what makes u think that EVO won't harm your dog in the future and Pro plan will? The ingredients?In my opinion that's not enough and it doesn't prove anything.

I don't believe that ANY dog food is good.In my opinion cooked-homemade food is the best.We use dry foods cause it is a full diet ,not cause it's the best we can do for our dogs.I use it as a supplement with the homemade food.

I used t feed orijen ,acana,eagle pack holistic,nutro ultra...After some months i realized i wasn't sure enough that those brown kibbles were what they claimed to be.i 'm using pro plan(cause i can find it near my place) but i don't trust it too.

If i won't see with my OWN eyes the meat,the rice and what else they put in there,i will not believe a single word that is writen on the bag.

if you feel better feeding those ''holistic'' foods,ok then!That's your choice.
But nobody has convinced me yet,that a ''holistic'' dog food is better than an other ''non-holistic''.

(sorry for my english!!!)


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I don't think every dog that eats poo is doing it because they "need" something in there diet.....I think they eat it because they are dogs and it smells good....
> 
> Were they eating poo of strange dogs or other dogs you own?



I have to disagree with that. In every instance I have owned a chronic poo eater, ones who sought crap out compulisvely, especially when they were more interested in other dog's poo ... it was nutrition related. On a few occasions I've bought adult dogs, this is mainly where I've noticed the poo eating. With dogs who had previously been on different foods from what I feed, and at least in one instance had gastrointestinal problems. 
My GSD was a naturally hard keeper, and depending on what type of food I used, she would resort to crap eating. Like a lightswitch, after a food change, she lost all interest in poo. It has been the same for the Beagles - certain foods have made them compulsively eat the poo of other dogs but also they took to eating rocks, dirt, twigs. They've all played with stones & twigs at one point or another, but what I am referencing is a true compulsion where when let out into the yard, instead of even going to the bathroom, it's lick up dirt time. All of them, throughout the yard, licking dirt, eating feces, and diarrhea. NOT NORMAL. I have seen pups play with poo, but this is a habit they very rapidly outgrow and has no associatin, IMHO, with the compulsive eating of feces. 
I have yet to cure a dog of stool eating with food change and a little vigilance. And have had several of them who seemed to be die hard poo addicts "see the light" due to switching brands. 
It's not Purina my dogs have eaten their stools on, rather, it was getting out of hand with colitis, FOUL smelling frequent feces on Wellness. The litter I had on it @ the end of the summer literally wallowed in their own feces, a behavior I have never seen. I have never in my life seen pups make a meal out of feces or take it into their living space. But they did. Dragged their poo into their crate to eat it. Now, I've seen pups taste it to emulate the mother, or play roll stools, but not this. I had those pups on Wellness until maybe 2 months ago, and it's been rare that they eat stool. It still happens, as it's now an ingrained habit, but it's now got some of that play aspect to it. Roll a turd then taste it rather then seek it out, and spend 30 minutes in the yard digging around for poo. They are both on regular Dog Chow now. When I compare the behavior on both foods, I cannot come to the clnclusion that Wellness was inherently better. 
Now I think that's one aspect of how a food works that's sorely overlooked. How a dog FEELS on a feed. A few years ago I awore by Eukanuba but knew the minute they changed the formula because my dogs became suddenly irritable, high strung, anxious in addition to the physical symptoms.
It seems so ridiculous to me that some feeding holistic foods are so bothered by the fact that some of us have dogs that can't tolerate rich feeds or otherwise do not do well on them. Why does it bother anyone if a breeder wishes to feed Pro Plan? The mentality is reminiscent of someone with a serious control issue


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> I have to disagree with that. In every instance I have owned a chronic poo eater, ones who sought crap out compulisvely, especially when they were more interested in other dog's poo ... it was nutrition related. On a few occasions I've bought adult dogs, this is mainly where I've noticed the poo eating. With dogs who had previously been on different foods from what I feed, and at least in one instance had gastrointestinal problems.
> My GSD was a naturally hard keeper, and depending on what type of food I used, she would resort to crap eating. Like a lightswitch, after a food change, she lost all interest in poo. It has been the same for the Beagles - certain foods have made them compulsively eat the poo of other dogs but also they took to eating rocks, dirt, twigs. They've all played with stones & twigs at one point or another, but what I am referencing is a true compulsion where when let out into the yard, instead of even going to the bathroom, it's lick up dirt time. All of them, throughout the yard, licking dirt, eating feces, and diarrhea. NOT NORMAL. I have seen pups play with poo, but this is a habit they very rapidly outgrow and has no associatin, IMHO, with the compulsive eating of feces.
> I have yet to cure a dog of stool eating with food change and a little vigilance. And have had several of them who seemed to be die hard poo addicts "see the light" due to switching brands.
> It's not Purina my dogs have eaten their stools on, rather, it was getting out of hand with colitis, FOUL smelling frequent feces on Wellness. The litter I had on it @ the end of the summer literally wallowed in their own feces, a behavior I have never seen. I have never in my life seen pups make a meal out of feces or take it into their living space. But they did. Dragged their poo into their crate to eat it. Now, I've seen pups taste it to emulate the mother, or play roll stools, but not this. I had those pups on Wellness until maybe 2 months ago, and it's been rare that they eat stool. It still happens, as it's now an ingrained habit, but it's now got some of that play aspect to it. Roll a turd then taste it rather then seek it out, and spend 30 minutes in the yard digging around for poo. They are both on regular Dog Chow now. When I compare the behavior on both foods, I cannot come to the clnclusion that Wellness was inherently better.
> ...


uhhhh....I hope that long winded rant was not directed to me?


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

^^^^^

Um, no ..... just relating my own experiences with stool eating. It certainly can be diet related, as in the dog is missing nutrients. I personally never owned a dog that didn't eat the stool because of any other reason than nutrional. Since this thread is about how PP is just so icky, I thought it was funny that the worst problem we ever had with stool eating was not on Purina but Wellness. lol.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

so your saying that every dog that eats poo is doing it becuse they are missing something in thier diet?


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Pugmom, not every dog that eats poo does it is lacking in diet, but pica is an explanation for many cases of stool eating. After all, excrement does contain certain nutritional elements that were not absorbed by some being's body (canine, human, whatever)

http://www.pet-comfort-products.com/why-dogs-eat-poop.html


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> Pugmom, *not every dog that eats poo does it is lacking in diet*, but pica is an explanation for many cases of stool eating. After all, excrement does contain certain nutritional elements that were not absorbed by some being's body (canine, human, whatever)
> 
> http://www.pet-comfort-products.com/why-dogs-eat-poop.html



I believe that is what I said in my post.....I'm not sure why your trying to explain to me?


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I believe that is what I said in my post.....I'm not sure why your trying to explain to me?


My apologies for attempting to be helpful: you posed it as a question. See?



pugmom said:


> so your saying that every dog that eats poo is doing it becuse they are missing something in thier diet?


Don't worry, I won't bother waiting for the apology. I understand that some people just can't help being rude and sarcastic to nameless, faceless people on the Internet.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> My apologies for attempting to be helpful: you posed it as a question. See?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry, I won't bother waiting for the apology. I understand that some people just can't help being rude and sarcastic to nameless, faceless people on the Internet.



I was posing the question to UB to clarify what he/she (sorry can't remember) was disagreeing with me about.

I posted that I did not think all dogs that eat poo do it for nutritional reasons...and UB posted that he/she disagreed with my statement.....Hence the question "so you are saying that all dogs that eat poo are missing something in their diet?"


And yes this is the internet were we are all nameless and faceless ....So I'm wondering how you deduced from one sentence that I am rude and sarcastic...


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

pugmom said:


> so your saying that every dog that eats poo is doing it becuse they are missing something in thier diet?



No. I said IN MY EXPERIENCE, every dog I had that was a chronic poo eater was cured with dietary changes. I said I felt that the main reason for this problem was something lacking in diet. 
Was also differentiating between dogs that once in a while play around with poops from serious chronic problems with eating poo (and sometimes other inedible things such as dirt). I said that the ones who do it compulsively normally have a dietary imbalance or problem digesting the food. 
Can I ask why you're taking my statement so personally?
People who feed Purina are supposed to just sit idly by as the food gets bashed & we get accused of being in bed with the company just for feeding it ... but then when I turn around and say IMHO poo eating is a dietary prob, and Purina has helped with that for the ones I owned who ate stool ... you just can't seem to accept that. 
These Purina threads always turn out to be so ridiculous & fickle.


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## heat_2008 (Feb 10, 2009)

Come on, we're all dog lovers here, can't we all just get along


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> No. I said IN MY EXPERIENCE, every dog I had that was a chronic poo eater was cured with dietary changes. I said I felt that the main reason for this problem was something lacking in diet.
> Was also differentiating between dogs that once in a while play around with poops from serious chronic problems with eating poo (and sometimes other inedible things such as dirt). I said that the ones who do it compulsively normally have a dietary imbalance or problem digesting the food.
> Can I ask why you're taking my statement so personally?
> People who feed Purina are supposed to just sit idly by as the food gets bashed & we get accused of being in bed with the company just for feeding it ... but then when I turn around and say IMHO poo eating is a dietary prob, and Purina has helped with that for the ones I owned who ate stool ... you just can't seem to accept that.
> These Purina threads always turn out to be so ridiculous & fickle.


I'm not sure what you mean by "taking your statements personally"?.....you quoted my post and said you disagreed so I assumed you were talking to ME...therefor I responded back with a question about your post to make sure I understood what you were saying

I also don't understand why you think I have something against anyone feeding Purina....I went back and re read all my post thinking that maybe I said something that might have given you that idea but still could find nothing ....I have no idea how this got so derailed??????

regarding dogs eating poo.....IMO all dogs that eat poo aren't necessarily doing it for "dietary purposes"...and IYO or IYE all dogs that eat poo are Missing something in their diet.......ok so we have different opinions...where did I say you were wrong or that I cant accept your opinion??

the only thing in this whole thread I might have taken a little personally was being call rude and sarcastic...because it was a personal attack on my character....so yeah that bugged me a little...but hey I'm over it...this is the internet after all


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, if we're going into poo eating.......my mom ran out of dog food so I brought her some of what I was feeding at the time (which was Diamond Naturals Beef Meal and Rice), and after only a couple of days, Shug started eating poop (hers and otherwise). Back to Chicken Soup and she's not eating poo anymore. Weird. My dogs do great on Diamond Naturals (and don't eat poo).


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

You'd have to ask the breeders why they feed that. I actually only know a few who feed it. Some probably has to do with popularity and availability. Their dogs do well on it so they spread the word they also sponsor shows so there are banners advertising helps sell products. They also might have good breeder or frequent buyer deals. 

I would credit *my* dog being a winner to their *breeder* for producing such a fine dog. Not a food company. 

I also attribute their muscle mass, sound structure and overall health, ect to genetics. 

As for getting Best wins my dogs have done so on Diamond High Energy or on prey model raw diet. So where does the credit go? Which is better when a dog or different dogs can be fed either way and still get a Best In Show or whatever. I don't feel I should attribute their success to a specific brand or to a specific diet.



animalcraker said:


> A breeder that voids thier contract based on what you feed is NOT a good breeder IMO. Some of the big dogs have sponserships from the different feed companies so they're required to "support" the company. Purina and many of the other big brands give out puppy packs to breeders registered with thier programs. That doesn't necissarly mean the breeders feed these foods to thier dogs on a regular basis. It just means the breeder uses the company for free stuff. Many breeders will instruct thier puppy buyers to ugrade to a better quality food once they're ready to go to adult formulas. Also some dogs may thirve and to very well on a lower quality food, there is no "end all" of dog foods.


I couldn't agree more on the contracts. When I was looking at Cane Corso breeders there was one which said in contract you had to feed a supplement to the dog or the health contract would be void. Of course they pushed the product and sold it, so you could purchase it directly from them. So if you get a dog, don't buy the expensive supplement from them or don't keep all the receipts from buying it and your dog gets HD its "your" fault. 



> To all those who think Purina in general, and Pro Plan in particular, is junk food, I again ask the question: WHAT DO(ES) YOUR DOG(S) DO FOR A LIVING?


One I'm not saying Purina is junk food. I think different strokes for different folks (and their dogs). I just don't see many of their products that great nor what I'd wish to feed my dog. I also don't see PP as some super awesome food, dogs live on it and thrive on it, but I don't believe that is food alone. 

I think it is the human's job to provide a living. As for what my dogs it depends on the time of year, weather, their age, individual dog, set of skills, energy level, likes and dislikes. Examples could be
One: Roam around, short walk, wait for someone/something to defend against
Two: 1hr running along side bike, 30 minutes chasing flirtpole, time playing and running around with other dogs, short training sessions. 
Three: Laying around the house, chewing up toys, napping, doing fun games or learn tricks, run around with others. 
Four: 20 minutes flirtpole. Short training sessions. Weight pulling - can very a lot on amount of time. Run around with others
Five: Roaming around, sitting and watching the humans, herding livestock, chewing on toys. Play with others. 

Several of them might be showing on weekends. They are also good at keeping coyotes away and fighting them off if it comes to that. Also great at warming the bed or couch.



UrbanBeagles said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Um, no ..... just relating my own experiences with stool eating. It certainly can be diet related, as in the dog is missing nutrients. I personally never owned a dog that didn't eat the stool because of any other reason than nutrional. Since this thread is about how PP is just so icky, I thought it was funny that the worst problem we ever had with stool eating was not on Purina but Wellness. lol.


I do agree it can be diet related. Although I don't know if its because something is missing. I think some stools smell or taste more appealing on certain foods. Soft stools also seem to be a good target for some dogs. 

I don't use PP but I've fed whats considered lower quality feeds before and know people who've also fed Dog Chow and other lower quality feeds having dogs eat their poop. So it really wouldn't make sense that the dogs lack something when not fed purina or similar foods because some dogs eat those stools too. Some people I know have only fed their dogs "lower quality food" like dog chow, diamond, ol roy, one, pedigree, duralife and the dogs eat poop. I say it is diet related because I've had dogs that never ate poop eat it on a certain food then stop once switched to another food. I just can't say something is missing in the premium foods or foods other then purina, because some dogs eat those stools and in certain cases only those stools. Everyone's dogs are different so they act and look differently on different foods. 



> Corn in a ground form is an easily digestable source of B vitamins, lutein, amino acids. I prefer corn and animal fat based feeds for coat. While chicken fat and other "better" grains usually do not give the dogs as thick or full or glossy of a coat.


This is another thing that is relative to the dog(s). My dogs do excellent with chicken fat as far as coats. Chicken fat is animal fat. They get a nice sheen to their coat when with the chicken fat and it is full, also nice to the touch. 



pugmom said:


> the only thing in this whole thread I might have taken a little personally was being call rude and sarcastic...because it was a personal attack on my character....so yeah that bugged me a little...but hey I'm over it...this is the internet after all


Don't worry about it. If you don't understand them, don't agree with them then it is your fault and you're being rude or something along those lines. So please don't take it personally.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Don't worry about it. If you don't understand them, don't agree with them then it is your fault and you're being rude or something along those lines. So please don't take it personally.


On the contrary--I posted what I assumed was a helpful post and I got a snippy little "what do you think you're trying to explain to me?" response. That's pretty darn rude. It would have led to less annoyance on my part if she had just explained herself instead of getting on her high horse first. After all, her post was in the frame of a question and with no facial expressions and no inflections available in the thread, I had no idea if it was a question for confirmation or for inquiry. Rude is rude and I don't make any apologies for calling her out on it.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> On the contrary--I posted what I assumed was a helpful post and I got a snippy little "what do you think you're trying to explain to me?" response. That's pretty darn rude. It would have led to less annoyance on my part if she had just explained herself instead of getting on her high horse first. After all, her post was in the frame of a question and with no facial expressions and no inflections available in the thread, I had no idea if it was a question for confirmation or for inquiry. Rude is rude and I don't make any apologies for calling her out on it.


Actually I said "I'm not sure why your trying to explain to me?"....and It was said because you did not ether read my post before or chose to ignore what I said.

as far as being rude...you said it your self ....no facial expressions an no inflections......so you decided to take it as snippy and rude..thats on YOU.....I cant help that...but your the only one who is "name calling" on this thread so ....kettle , I hear the pot calling 

I try to be careful on here before "calling people out"....that is why after UB quoted me and then posted that long rant , I made sure I asked if it was directed at me before getting my patties in a bunch......I can only type my post my way...if you need an explanation then ask for it



> Don't worry about it. If you don't understand them, don't agree with them then it is your fault and you're being rude or something along those lines. So please don't take it personally.


Thank you spicy....eh what can ya do?


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

IMO on the "poo" eating aspect....i don't believe that it is always a dietary issue....._i_ simple stated that, for my dogs, it did seem to be a "symptom" of the premium food not doing well for them.....when they were on the "premium" foods, they became poop eaters, when on P.O. they didn't eat it.....so, for mine it was dietary....

but, i have known dogs that no matter what they were fed they still ate it....


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

tirluc said:


> IMO on the "poo" eating aspect....i don't believe that it is always a dietary issue....._i_ simple stated that, for my dogs, it did seem to be a "symptom" of the premium food not doing well for them.....when they were on the "premium" foods, they became poop eaters, when on P.O. they didn't eat it.....so, for mine it was dietary....
> 
> 
> but, i have known dogs that no matter what they were fed they still ate it....


And I agree with your opinion....I think in your case you were able to see a cause and effect...

and I agree that diet can effect dog behavior ......I just also think there are a bunch of other reasons they eat poo as well...along w/road kill, dirt, rocks, socks, underwear, bras


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## Moonshadow (Nov 9, 2008)

pugmom said:


> I just also think there are a bunch of other reasons they eat poo as well...along w/road kill, dirt, rocks, socks, underwear, bras



Today I have one throwing up gravel and another that just popped out a sock....they do this stuff because they are dogs....and I think they get a kick out of me shampooing the living room carpet because they can NEVER puke up anything on a hard floor!

I notice more interest in poop on different foods but I can't say I think they do it because of something they are lacking....I think they do it because they like it and more than likely because I flip out about it and I swear they sit there laughing at me.

Going back to the original question....I think a good amount of breeders who use ProPlan or any Purina products do it because it's affordable and because they have a good breeder's program. Not saying they aren't getting good results with the food but there are many foods you can get good results from.

What I really wonder is if some of the people who swear by ProPlan or Iams....whatever mid grade food....have they ever tried something better in quality to see if the dogs really do best on these foods or are they simply satisfied with the dogs the way they are and don't realize how much better they may do on a different diet?

I am sure that some dogs do best on ProPlan but I do believe that some people use certain products because they are cheap. Just because a dog does "fine" on a cheap product doesn't mean that it's the best one for the dog. For the general pet owner I can absolutely understand that money may be tight and they do the best they can for their dogs. But....for a breeder to use something because they can't afford what their dogs do best on....that I have BIG issues with. If you can't afford a quality diet for your dogs and can't do the absolute best for them then why are you breeding them? If you can only afford to feed Dog Chow how do you afford to do proper health testing? How do you afford entry fees, traveling to shows, handlers (if you use one),etc.? To me once a breeder starts to cut corners on food....it's not the end of cutting corners. Either they are breeding to make money or they just aren't doing it correctly.

I've tried a ton of different foods on my dogs. I've tried some of the ProPlan foods and while I could sustain my dogs on it and they didn't look horrible it doesn't work for them the way I would want it to. Most people would have thought it was fine but knowing my dogs I know they can look and feel better on something different. 

For the record....I'm back to feeding Abady. I stopped using it when the owner of the company was ill (later passed away) and tried a bunch of different foods in the past 10 months or so. Nothing compared to the results I got from Abady.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> What I really wonder is if some of the people who swear by ProPlan or Iams....whatever mid grade food....have they ever tried something better in quality to see if the dogs really do best on these foods or are they simply satisfied with the dogs the way they are and don't realize how much better they may do on a different diet?
> 
> I am sure that some dogs do best on ProPlan but I do believe that some people use certain products because they are cheap. Just because a dog does "fine" on a cheap product doesn't mean that it's the best one for the dog.



Speaking for myself, we found Purina by accident, I HAD been feedin supposedly better quality feeds. I'd been doing raw for a few years, then stopped giving raw as the sole diet, went to Nutro Ultra when it first came on the market. Took them off that after a 3-4 months, went to Canidae. HORRIBLE mistake. One problem after another - ear infections, vaginal yeast infections, terrible time getting my GSD to put weight on (she was up to 6 cups daily on it), dull coats. My favorite was when two of my bitches came in season, instead of dropping blood, they dropped a thick, white snotty discharge  They both has yeast infections. I have never seen this again, not on any other diet. Finally, they stopped eating it altogether, and that was the end of our 5-6 month stint with Canidae. From there it was Back To Basics, Timberwolf, Evolve, Merrick, Best In Show (now out of business, similar to Innova), Healthwise ... the list goes on. The dogs never looked so horrid. Then I tried Eukanuba because there was nothing left to try, and they really came around wonderfully. This was not a cheap food, I was paying well over $50 a bag. I stuck with them for a few years until the formula changed, then the food went downhill. While I was feeding Euk, if I needed a backup food, I'd use Purina ONE. So when I took them off that, it was Purina as the staple. Last year I tried Dog Chow (begrudgingly!) and guess what, it was the best I'd used! It had nothing to do with cost or availability because I have spent a pretty penny on food & if it works then that's what must be fed. However, I cannot afford to waste $ just to say I feed the latest designer brand even tho the dogs are going down the crapper on it. 

My last stint with holistic food, and I do mean last - I am afraid to switch again after what happened with our bad experience on CORE - not only did the dogs not do well, but one of my dogs had a very serious issue that could have killed him. He went into a hypoglycemic fit, and never have we had this issue. Not even running dogs under bad conditions for several hours a day have I had one come down with a full out hypoglycemic episode. If the blood sugar crashes low enough without being brought back up, the dog can go into a coma and die in a matter of minutes. There must have been an angel on this dog's shoulder, because we did not realize it was hypoglycemia related until 24hrs later. We are lucky he came out of the seizure without brain damage and still has his life. His blood sugar went from around 42 48 hrs after the seizure to 89 a few weeks later, on low protein SD. See, not only did he become hypoglycemic (and another dog, as well, the next day, went into a hypoglycemic fit also) but all the dogs were drinking/urinating copiously. Even so, the two dogs I took in to the Vet had elevated BUN/cholesterol levels as well, despite copious water intake were also dehydrated. These dogs were 5 & 8.5yrs old, and never had issues with kidney values in their lives. One dog was elileptic, the other, the 5yo, never had a seizure in his life. His littermate sister, however, who is on raw, also had a few hypoglycemic episodes, tho did not go into a seizure. Yet my dogs who are on such "crappy" food somehow manage to remain healthy. I do not care about ingredients anymore, I spent too much time obsessing over them and look what I got. Serious problems, not dandruffy coats but problems that warranted Veterinary attention and/or could have been fatal. So I think that the true junk foods here, regardless of ingredients, are some of the holistic fad diets. JMHO.


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## Moonshadow (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm definately with you UrbanBeagles on the fact that the holistic foods aren't what they are cracked up to be. I wouldn't feed Core if they paid me to...been there, done that and it was a mess! LOL

I know you have tried a bizillion foods as I have and apparently our dogs like chicken heads and such. Canidae was a nightmare for us, as was Merrick....Merrick was even worse than Core if that's possible. Timberwolf wasn't too bad until they all just stopped eating it. Wellness goes right through them....and on and on we go with them all! My dogs don't need blueberries and carrots in their food, nor do I think grain free is the way to go even though that's the latest fad.

What I have a problem with is the people that I know who feed cheap, just because it's cheap. I know a girl who's dogs do the best on By Nature....but she feeds Dog Chow (the one in the green bag) because she can get it for $20 instead of $50. The dogs are not starving or anything but it's not what they do best on....that I just can't stand. I have a breeder friend who's husband is a vet, money isn't an issue for them and she feeds ProPlan (various different varieties of it) because that's what she finds they do best on. Funny thing is the one boy I have who's sired by one of her studs does horrible on ProPlan....his paws get pink and his coat gets dull and I can't keep weight on him....go figure.

I'm just going to stay with my Abady.....by-products, lard and all kinds of "horrible" things in there seem to agree with my dogs. I really do have to wonder if people know what to look for to see if the dogs are doing well on a food....between you and I we are dealing with a large number of dogs....if we don't have any that thrive on the holistic stuff how are all of the dogs that eat it really doing on it? Kinda have to wonder if people stopped worrying about by-products and started to look at the big picture and give some other things a try what they would really see.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Moonshadow said:


> I'm just going to stay with my Abady.....by-products, lard and all kinds of "horrible" things in there seem to agree with my dogs. I really do have to wonder if people know what to look for to see if the dogs are doing well on a food....between you and I we are dealing with a large number of dogs....if we don't have any that thrive on the holistic stuff how are all of the dogs that eat it really doing on it? Kinda have to wonder if people stopped worrying about by-products and started to look at the big picture and give some other things a try what they would really see.




Ahhh...and the argument comes full circle again LOL.......one side is called "mean" and "cheap" by feeding certain brands of food....the other side is called "fools" and "blinded by hype" for feeding other brands.....this thread is really going to end up a "frankenthread" LOL


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Moonshadow said:


> Going back to the original question....I think a good amount of breeders who use ProPlan or any Purina products do it because it's affordable and because they have a good breeder's program. Not saying they aren't getting good results with the food but there are many foods you can get good results from.


this i agree w/.....i, myself use it b/c it's affordable....but my main reason is b/c it's what my dogs do best on.....(read on)



> What I really wonder is if some of the people who swear by ProPlan or Iams....whatever mid grade food....have they ever tried something better in quality to see if the dogs really do best on these foods or are they simply satisfied with the dogs the way they are and don't realize how much better they may do on a different diet?


i have tried other (premium) foods.....my dogs lost coat/condition, stamina/energy level, poop was doubled or better, and the amount that i had to feed to keep weight on them double or better (so, w/ that it definitely wasn't more cost effective).....had a GSD yrs back when ProPlan just came out and i went thru the gammut of foods for him....all the "high quality" stuff he was eating anywhere from 10-16 c a day....on ProPlan he ate 6-8 depending on the time of yr (winters were more)......to me, if you're feeding your dog the best you can afford (and that means _the best for your dog/s that is in your budget_) go for it.....but, if i had to feed mine something like the Dog Chow, Pedigree, K & B, etc, in order to financially afford to feed my 5, then i wouldn't have 5 dogs....and, right now, the Purina One stretches the budget sometimes but they are worth it and it does best for them....and that'll change here soon anyway....


i think we all just need to get off our "high horses" w/ the food issue and agree that, if your doing what you can to make sure that your dog is well cared for (which they can be even on the cheapest food) then that's good....there are enuff dogs out there that don't even get that....we will never agree on "what's best" all around, anyway....cuz there isn't a best....


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## Katala (Feb 13, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> Maybe Iams, Science Diet, Purina are just not as bad as you think.


Actually, Iams and Science Diet are WORSE than most people think. Science diet is store-brand food that sponsors vets in order to win their praises, and IAMS disgusts me even more for their unethical testing practices. Many of the [unneccessary] tests that IAMS performs are harmful or lethal to the animals involved. However, because it is cheaper, they proceed. Their improvements over the past years have been minimal and all for show. Science Diet starts off with corn, even in my cat's food (she came from a shelter and I'm in the process of switching her to pro plan). My cat throws up constantly on this diet, but I don't want to rush the switch. My dogs are doing FANTASTIC on Nature's Recipe. I prefer to feed them the vegetarian formula, which is carefully balanced for dogs with allergies to soy, corn, and by-products. In order to fulfill their omnivorous needs, I feed them pet botanicals lamb food rolls. Love at first taste. xD I would feed my cat nature's recipe also, but I've yet to find a kitty formula.


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## Moonshadow (Nov 9, 2008)

tirluc said:


> i have tried other (premium) foods.....my dogs lost coat/condition, stamina/energy level, poop was doubled or better, and the amount that i had to feed to keep weight on them double or better (so, w/ that it definitely wasn't more cost effective).....had a GSD yrs back when ProPlan just came out and i went thru the gammut of foods for him....all the "high quality" stuff he was eating anywhere from 10-16 c a day....on ProPlan he ate 6-8 depending on the time of yr (winters were more)......to me, if you're feeding your dog the best you can afford (and that means _the best for your dog/s that is in your budget_) go for it.....but, if i had to feed mine something like the Dog Chow, Pedigree, K & B, etc, in order to financially afford to feed my 5, then i wouldn't have 5 dogs....and, right now, the Purina One stretches the budget sometimes but they are worth it and it does best for them....and that'll change here soon anyway....
> 
> 
> i think we all just need to get off our "high horses" w/ the food issue and agree that, if your doing what you can to make sure that your dog is well cared for (which they can be even on the cheapest food) then that's good....there are enuff dogs out there that don't even get that....we will never agree on "what's best" all around, anyway....cuz there isn't a best....


I have no problem with people using whatever food they choose to use, if it's what's best for their dog(s) and in their price range then that's great.

I do have issues with people who have 15-20 dogs and have 3 or 4 litters a year and can afford handlers, entry fees, etc. to show their dogs but don't want to spend the money on what their dogs do best on. It's one thing for a pet owner to make a choice on food based on cost but for someone who's showing and breeding to choose to skimp on food....I can't be ok with that.


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## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

Katala said:


> My dogs are doing FANTASTIC on Nature's Recipe. I prefer to feed them the vegetarian formula, which is carefully balanced for dogs with allergies to soy, corn, and by-products. In order to fulfill their omnivorous needs, I feed them pet botanicals lamb food rolls. Love at first taste. xD I would feed my cat nature's recipe also, but I've yet to find a kitty formula.


 If Nature's Recipe Vegetarian formula is made for dogs with allergies to soy, corn and by-products then why is the second ingredient soybean meal? Following rice and followed by barley? I'm not knocking NR, but surely this vegetarian formula must be for dogs that are allergic to meats, not grains.

I know someone who's mother used to feed this to all of her dogs, even though only one of them had severe Pancreatitis and this was the food he did best on. Apparently, all of the dogs loved the food and were very fat and shiny! She did not supplement with any meat, though.


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## Moonshadow (Nov 9, 2008)

pugmom said:


> Ahhh...and the argument comes full circle again LOL.......one side is called "mean" and "cheap" by feeding certain brands of food....the other side is called "fools" and "blinded by hype" for feeding other brands.....this thread is really going to end up a "frankenthread" LOL


My point is that there are a lot of people that are completely hung up on what's "good" and what's "bad" that they limit themselves on what they try. If I kept my head in the sand and went on thinking that the "holistic" foods where the best thing since sliced bread and vowed to never feed anything with by-products in then I wouldn't have ever tried a food that my dogs do SUPER on. 

I'm not saying that some dogs don't do great on grain free food (I co-own a bitch who does best on grain free so that's what she gets), nor am I saying that some don't do best on an organic food or a meatless diet....but there are some who do best on a food with corn or chicken by-products too.

I think what's important is that people feed what their dog does best with....and stop worrying about the label so much. What I have issues is not with what someone feeds but with the reasons that some people feed what they feed. Does that make any sense?

I'm feeding a food that's a little over $100 for 35 pounds and another that's $110 for 48 pounds......it has lard and chicken by-products in it. So...I really can't be on a particular "side" with this. I'm feeding an expensive food with scary things in it.....so am I a mean blind fool? Can't say I'm cheap


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Moonshadow said:


> My point is that there are a lot of people that are completely hung up on what's "good" and what's "bad" that they limit themselves on what they try. If I kept my head in the sand and went on thinking that the "holistic" foods where the best thing since sliced bread and vowed to never feed anything with by-products in then I wouldn't have ever tried a food that my dogs do SUPER on.
> 
> I'm not saying that some dogs don't do great on grain free food (I co-own a bitch who does best on grain free so that's what she gets), nor am I saying that some don't do best on an organic food or a meatless diet....but there are some who do best on a food with corn or chicken by-products too.
> 
> ...


I think we are basically saying the same thing ..

My point is that it shouldn't matter if your hung up on labels...it shouldn't matter if you hung up on price...it shouldn't matter if you tried 1 brand or 1000 brands.......what matters is how your dog is doing on what ever food it eats
If your feeding "premium food" and your dog has issues you should not feel that you cant try a "low star" food because it makes you a bad person and vise versa ....You should not be called a or "label hungry" if you want to try a "premium food"

Also I think you have to chose what your comfortable with...if you are uncomfortable w/the manufacture of the food or what is in the food (exg By-products)...and you have found another food that you pet does well on .....that doesn't make the person bad to not what to feed that brand...its just their personal opinion...just like feeding something that works for your dog that is full of "BAD" (to use your description)stuff works for you


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## Katala (Feb 13, 2009)

HersheyPup said:


> If Nature's Recipe Vegetarian formula is made for dogs with allergies to soy, corn and by-products then why is the second ingredient soybean meal? Following rice and followed by barley? I'm not knocking NR, but surely this vegetarian formula must be for dogs that are allergic to meats, not grains.


I was referring to their entire line. They make all of their foods for dogs with special needs.... and even dogs without them do fantastic on them. I would prefer not to supplement with meats, because I myself am a vegetarian; however, I am loathe to deprive my dogs of their natural food source. It is my responsibility to balance the welfare of the animals that go into the food, and the animals at the top of that chain, which is why I try to only feed free range organic meats if I can help it. It is hypocritical beyond belief to take such good care of one animal through the suffering of millions more.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> I'm just going to stay with my Abady.....by-products, lard and all kinds of "horrible" things in there seem to agree with my dogs. I really do have to wonder if people know what to look for to see if the dogs are doing well on a food....between you and I we are dealing with a large number of dogs....if we don't have any that thrive on the holistic stuff how are all of the dogs that eat it really doing on it? Kinda have to wonder if people stopped worrying about by-products and started to look at the big picture and give some other things a try what they would really see.



Ok ... you just summed up my feelings on the subject, hit the nail on the head regarding how I feel about dog food. Tho I was much more long winded, lol 

I have actually seen the ingredients of Abady and thought, hmmm, looks like something mine might do well on. Seriously, the lard, by products - this is what maintains coat on an active dog! I like animal fat based foods for the same reason ... Purina used beef tallow up until recently, which is basically pure beef lard. When it was taken out of Purina ONE, the dogs never did as well on that brand again. 

Anyway, you're absolutely right. Pet owners should be more concerned with the big picture than some obscure food allergy or nitpicking about ingredients. I used to have a good article on the subject, it was regarding raw, however, but definitely made a good point about ingredients vs. actual health issues that can be caused by things like too much phosphorous in the diet. Will have to dig around, see if I can find it ... lol


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

Our breeder feeds Eukanuba because their dogs do well on it (#2 and #3 brittanies in Canada), and it is very easy to find. They travel to shows all over Canada and the US, and it is extremely difficult to feed raw while on the road, and can be difficult/expensive to buy a lot of premium foods on the road. Eukanuba is sold all over, which makes life easy.

We fed Libby the Eukanuba Puppy for the first couple of months while she got used to living with us. However, she only picked at the food. When that bag was gone, we switched her to Innova Puppy and she became a food hoover! What a difference! 

When she was ready to move off puppy food, we switched to Orijen. We have her on Orijen 6 Fish now (rotation), and she is doing very well. Great coat and skin, fantastic teeth, beautiful muscle tone and ideal weight, clean ears. We couldn't be happier.

She's always been a poop eater, though... on every food we've tried so far.


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