# Too much protein?



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

I want to get my dog on a grain-free diet but have two concerns.

1. He has a sensitive stomach and I hear that high protein (especially from many sources) can be hard on them.

2. If I go grain-free, should I supplement his food with anything else? O was once told I should--but with what I don't remember. Something about high-protein and liver problems...?

So given that, can anyone recommend a high quality (5 or 6 star) food that is moderate in protein levels and likely to be a good match for a sensitive stomach?

He was on Canidae Lamb & Rice and did well. Switched to the Chicken & Rice and is doing poorly. I also want to give him a higher quality food than this.

Looking at Orijen, Taste of the Wild, Instinct, Acana


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Well all the food you chose are 6 stars except for Acana according to dogfoodanalysis.com

If you want him on moderate protein and grainless, try TOTW or Wellness Core. I personally use EVO and Orijen but these are al 40+% protein which is very high. TOTW and Wellness Core have about 32% if I remember correctly and depending on the formula.

I recommend trying something with mainly fish sources because it's easier to digest. Also if your dog did well on lamb, try a food with predominantly lamb based protein source. I know Wellness Core has a fish one, and TOTW might have a formula with lamb and some beef I think(I might be wrong on this, not that familiar with TOTW).


----------



## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Why recommend feeding a mainly fish diet? 

Would you eat a fish diet everyday? If not then why? 

The majority of fish that are harvested have elevated levels of mercury and other toxins. What makes the fish in our pets food any different. 
You hear on the news a couple times a year about how much fish a person can eat. Now can you imagine how much a dog is eating on a daily diet? 

TOTW is also manufactured by Diamond I believe. Do a search for ethoxyquin and I believe nearly all of Diamonds products are manufactured using Fish preserved by it. Wellness states they bring in ethoxyquin free fish for diamond to manufacture their Wellness food but that came from the company. Diamond states they use ethoxyquin preserved fish in all their formulas. 
So who do you believe..???


----------



## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

TOTW has Pacific Stream, which is a fish only based food and no grains. Its protein is 25%. Acana, like CORE is in the 30's for protein (33-34?). They have a fish based food, too, called Acana Pacifica. This is what mine are eating right now. Another moderate protein grain-free that I like is FROMM 4-Star Surf & Turf (around the 30-34% mark), but it uses more protein than just fish.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

shets114 said:


> Why recommend feeding a mainly fish diet?
> 
> Would you eat a fish diet everyday? If not then why?


I eat a piece of fish every single day since I almost never eat meat. I never go a single day without fish.

I recommend it because it's more easily digestible than red meat or chicken. It's recommended by the vet for dogs with allergies and sensitive stomachs. A poodle I know has such bad allergies that she can't even eat any treats other than fresh boiled fish recommended by the vet.



shets114 said:


> TOTW is also manufactured by Diamond I believe. Do a search for ethoxyquin and I believe nearly all of Diamonds products are manufactured using Fish preserved by it. Wellness states they bring in ethoxyquin free fish for diamond to manufacture their Wellness food but that came from the company. Diamond states they use ethoxyquin preserved fish in all their formulas.
> So who do you believe..???


That is one of my concerns too. I don't feed TOTW because it might contain ethoxyquin. I only feed Orijen's fish formula because I know it's made here in Canada and they don't preserve the fish other than refrigerate.

The reason I recommend TOTW and Wellness Core is because the original poster wanted a moderate protein grainless dog food. Orijen and EVO are very high protein.


----------



## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

Acana is really good if you're looking for a lower protein kibble - my dog did well on both the Prairie Harvest and Grasslands - I rotate that with the higher protein kibbles i.e. Orijen and EVO. 

I also think that Natural Balance is a really good kibble for dog's with sensitive tummies - particularly their duck and sweet potato formula, though some people think that the protein content might be a little too low. You can mix the kibble with some Orijen and that should work as well.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

I used to have him on Wellness Core (in fact, still have half the large bag of it). I forgot the reason I got off it but I recall getting scared about something on the message boards. Is there anything else that needs modifying when going with high protein/no grain? Seems backwards in the thinking, but worth the question I figure.


----------



## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

I think the high protein diet just doesn't work for some dogs mostly because it's too rich and can cause diarrhea and stomach upsets. 

A couple of things to keep in mind: your dog needs plenty of water - high protein diets are very draining on the kidneys. I don't know what the consensus is on this board about kidney problems, UTI and high protein diets but if your dog has any of these kind of diseases, then a high protein diet would not be recommended at all (and that's in my opinion although a lot of people seem to think it's cock and bull). 

Also, I think you may have been recommended to supplement high-protein/grain free kibble with some form of fiber i.e. canned pumpkin puree, sweet potatoes or coconut flakes. All of which I do for my dog, including some coconut oil and yogurt. You might get some runny stools on high-protein diet so the fiber just helps bulk things up. 

I've never tried Wellness Core before, although I've been tempted to but have heard some pretty waffling reviews about it, so I'm still not sure. I've tried Natural Balance, Acana, Orijen, Evo, TOTW, Earthborn Holistics and one or two other really "holistic" brands that my local shop sells - I found that Natural Balance (Sweet Potato and Venison), Acana (Grasslands) and Orijen (that Regional Red stuff is like a miracle drug!) worked the best for my miniature dachshund - smooth shiny coat, lots of psycho dog energy and no stinky doggie smell. Of course, every dog is different, but I would recommend Natural Balance or Acana for you to start out.


----------



## paux (Jul 26, 2009)

Keep in mind that is always a good idea to rotate your protein sources. Otherwise allergies can develop.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

Yes, that is exactly why I am in this search. Trying to find a new, good food to rotate.

I think the water/kidney issue is the one that came up before. Though my little guy only has the acid-reflux issue as far as we know--no known urinary tract issues.

Right now I am leaning towards the Acana.

One other thing I find interesting is that the Canidae says to feed him about 1 cup/day, while the Acana says 1.5-2.25 cups per day (with his weight being closer to the 2.25). I would have thought that being purer it would be less food--not more.


----------



## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

Can it be due to activity level? I tried looking on both the Canidae and Acana websites - Canidae seems to cater for only one activity level (with exercise), who knows what with exercise means. 

My rule of thumb of 1/4 cup 2x a day per pound of body weight - so for my 11 lb mini dachshund it's 1/2 cup a day, way less than the recommended feeding because I also give him grain free treats, apples, etc, and he is a bum most days. If your dog is more active, give him an extra 1/4 cup per day. So I'm guessing that if your dog is 25lbs, about 1.25 cups per day should be sufficient.

At the end of the day, your dog is your best feeding guide. If he's losing weight, add food. If he's gaining cut back and do more walks! I weigh my dog every time I weigh myself over the weekend and I blame him for any weight gain I have so HE gets less food and I get more


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about high protein levels. If the very best diet is mostly raw meat, I really don't think you need to worry about grain-free kibble being too high in protein.

I feed all my pets grain-free, mostly about 42% protein foods, and not a single one has ever had digestive issues. If anything, the high protein is easier for them to digest (although it can be a little rough at the very beginning when they are used to cheapo shelter food like science diet).

Is there a specific reason you are worried about protein?


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

dieterherzog said:


> I think the high protein diet just doesn't work for some dogs mostly because it's too rich and can cause diarrhea and stomach upsets.
> 
> A couple of things to keep in mind: your dog needs plenty of water - high protein diets are very draining on the kidneys. I don't know what the consensus is on this board about kidney problems, UTI and high protein diets but if your dog has any of these kind of diseases, then a high protein diet would not be recommended at all (and that's in my opinion although a lot of people seem to think it's cock and bull).
> 
> Also, I think you may have been recommended to supplement high-protein/grain free kibble with some form of fiber i.e. canned pumpkin puree, sweet potatoes or coconut flakes. All of which I do for my dog, including some coconut oil and yogurt. You might get some runny stools on high-protein diet so the fiber just helps bulk things up.


I kind of agree with the water issue, not sure if it's really true or not that they need more water but I mix half of Nia's food with water and let it soak in so that she gets a warmish wet meal (actually half meal). 

I think supplementing works well too. Nia gets yogurt, fruits and veggies almost everyday. It gives her more fiber plus something to lower the protein a little bit.

Edit: I think the main reason many people(including me) are worried about too much protein is that people tell you that your pets will die of kidney/liver disease that they can't digest the protein and won't drink enough water, etc. etc. Since these issues are mentioned so often, it starts to become a real concern even if it really isn't an issue. Also high protein kibble is also quite recent so if there are problems they often haven't come up yet. You need to see 15-20 years of feeding high protein to see if your pets suffer any problems from them.

By the way, does anyone know how long ago the oldest high protein grain free kibble came out?


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Max was on EVO in Novemeber 2004. First mention of it on K9Nutrition is Sepember of 2004.

Sassy has kidney disease and I try really hard to get as much protein into her as possible. I can tell she feels better if she gets more protein, more fluids and less phosphorus. For kidney dogs phosphorus is the enemy not protein. Trick is, meat has lots of phosphorus!

Max eats raw and his diet is usually 45-55% protein and the rest is fat and bone. He does just fine. I do think high protein kibble is hard on dogs who aren't good at drinking water. I think any kibble is hard on dogs who don't drink water.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> Max was on EVO in Novemeber 2004. First mention of it on K9Nutrition is Sepember of 2004.
> 
> Sassy has kidney disease and I try really hard to get as much protein into her as possible. I can tell she feels better if she gets more protein, more fluids and less phosphorus. For kidney dogs phosphorus is the enemy not protein. Trick is, meat has lots of phosphorus!
> 
> Max eats raw and his diet is usually 45-55% protein and the rest is fat and bone. He does just fine. I do think high protein kibble is hard on dogs who aren't good at drinking water. I think any kibble is hard on dogs who don't drink water.


When did Max switch to raw?

The thing is, raw is completely different from high protein kibble because it contains a lot of water already so according to some, it's not taxing on the kidneys because water contained in it makes the protein more digestible. 

I wonder what a dog fed on a high protein kibble would be like if they were fed for 10-15 years on high protein kibble?


----------



## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

I completely understand all the concern about high-protein diet but I guess (and I may be wrong) the argument for it is that dogs and cats both have shorter and more acidic digestive tracts and hence grains and what-nots (particularly harder to digest ones like corn & wheat) causes things to ferment in the stomach leading to allergies. Meat products can be more readily digested and most good protein sources are meat (unless you want to feed your dog tofu and nuts which is a different story altogether).

I know there is an argument that dogs are not strictly carnivores and that domestic dogs are different from wild dogs. My opinion is in the form of an analogy: Humans started out as mainly herbivores and only started eating meat due to natural selection and need. Doctors still advise against eating too much meat and instead recommend a mainly vege/grains diet. 

In the same way, because domestic dogs started out eating mainly meat, feeding them an excess of vege/grains is just plain wrong. And the evolution/domestication thing is just pure nonsense - it's taken humans longer to evolve into omnivores than it has for dogs to become permanently fed a diet full of grains and fillers. 

I think that grains in moderation - that being good whole grains like oats and brown rice are perfectly fine for dogs (none of the corn gluten meal nonsense), but high quality meat products are really important. I just choose to feed mine a grain-free diet because it works for him. Inevitably, grain-free foods often have higher protein content. 

So in short I don't think it matters the amount of protein you feed your dog, their bodies are probably more adaptable to all forms of crap than we know; that's why you have dogs living up to the age of 17/18 on Science Diet. As long as the food is made from high quality meat products and is free from chemicals and toxins, it should work fine for your dog.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the great posts. It really helps.
I think a couple of you are right in that one topic (kidney issues) comes up and then it's easy to obsess about it. 

The argument of quality over quantity makes a lot of sense to me. Consider a grass-fed beef burger vs. McDonalds. They're both beef, but they're not the same nutritionally. 

I think I'll go for an Acana Grasslands or Orijin Red and see how he does. Then I can add in some pumpkin or the like if need be.

Thanks again!


----------



## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

mattverde said:


> Thanks everyone for the great posts. It really helps.
> I think a couple of you are right in that one topic (kidney issues) comes up and then it's easy to obsess about it.
> 
> The argument of quality over quantity makes a lot of sense to me. Consider a grass-fed beef burger vs. McDonalds. They're both beef, but they're not the same nutritionally.
> ...


Let me/us know how it goes - I'm quite curious if it works out. Thanks!


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

StellaLucyDesi said:


> TOTW has Pacific Stream, which is a fish only based food and no grains. Its protein is 25%. Acana, like CORE is in the 30's for protein (33-34?). They have a fish based food, too, called Acana Pacifica. This is what mine are eating right now. Another moderate protein grain-free that I like is FROMM 4-Star Surf & Turf (around the 30-34% mark), but it uses more protein than just fish.


There was just another thread in this forum that the TOTW pacific stream was causing dogs to get sick. There was something about a recall so I'd look into this more before going to TOTW.

I've been saying for YEARS that fats are more important in a dog's diet than proteins are and it appears that the theory has been proven.


Nutrition for Working Dogs 
Richard Hill, MA, VetMB, PhD, DACVIM, MRCVS 
Waltham Associate Professor of Clinical Nutrition 


What factors are important? 
1) Type of Exercise: Endurance vs. sprinting – most working dogs are endurance athletes 
2) Training: Slow increases in exercise and slow adjustment to new nutritional needs are best. Being a "weekend warrior" and suddenly increasing exercise and diet can result in injuries and digestive upset. 


What is unique about the exercising dog? 
1) Dogs do not get heart attacks and do not need to worry about increased fat 
2) Dogs burn fat twice as fast as people do 
3) All dogs’ muscle fibers burn fat whereas some muscle fibers in horses and people do not 
4) Stamina improves when dogs are fed a high fat diet (50 percent energy). This is the opposite of people who need increased carbohydrate for stamina 


Effect of diet on stamina in Beagles on a treadmill (Downey et al. 1989) 

*Follow this link to see the table. It wouldn't copy properly*
http://www.ncfbc.com/Education/pdfs/... disease.pdf


5) Dogs sprint faster when fed increased fat 
6) Dogs "tie up" less when fed high fat diets 

How much protein? 
7) Dogs require at least 30 percent energy as protein for endurance exercise to prevent anemia 

8) Dogs do not require more than 24 percent energy as protein for sprint exercise 



Types of pet foods: 

9) Dry foods are formed by an extruder and are mostly low fat (~25 percent energy as fat) because the extruder requires a low fat mixture. These are fine for dogs which are couch potatoes but do not contain enough fat for working dogs undertaking endurance exercise. More expensive dry diets have fat sprayed on after extrusion and tend to contain more fat (40 percent energy as fat). They are packaged in special grease proof bags and are greasy to the touch. These should provide the staple diet for a working dog. It is enough on its own if the dog is not working. It is not necessary to feed diets designed for large breed dogs. 

10) Canned foods contain 75 percent moisture and are more expensive but usually contain more fat and protein. The analysis on the bag cannot be compared with that on a dry food because the amount of water is greater in canned food. For a rough comparison, multiply the analysis on the canned food by four to compare with that of a dry diet. Working dogs which are normally fed dry food should be supplemented with canned 


food when they are working. Foods designed for growing dogs mostly contain increased protein and fat. 

11) Soft-moist and soft-dry (e.g. Kibbles and Bits) are intermediate but mostly low fat and are not suitable for working dogs 




Note that high fat is here defined as > 40 percent energy which is equivalent on the label to > 5 percent fat for a canned diet, > 13 percent fat in a semi-moist diet and > 18 percent fat in a dry diet. High protein is defined as > 30 percent energy which is equivalent on the label to > 9 percent in a high fat canned diet of > 33 percent in a high fat dry diet. 


Differences between pet foods 
Differences between pet foods are often small. Foods with difference names do not necessarily differ in composition. Some terms such as "premium" and "super-premium" have no definition and do not guarantee better performance. The major differences are: 


12) Dry vs. canned: Canned usually contain more fat and protein than dry diets. 


13) Generic vs. proprietary: Generic diets are usually made with poorer quality ingredients and are not necessarily tested on animals. Proprietary (popular & premium) brands made by national manufacturers are made with better ingredients and are usually tested on animals. "Generic" diets are inexpensive private label of a local or regional manufacturer. Pet food is well regulated but there is no policing of label claims within the state of Florida. It is therefore better to use a food which is sold nationally. 
14) Life stage and therapeutic diets: These sometimes have different compositions and should be used only with a veterinary recommendation. 



Supplements and treats 

15) Unbalance balanced diets. Do not feed supplements. Treats should comprise < 10 percent of the diet 


a. Too much meat can result in thin bones and fractures 
b. Too much liver can cause stiff neck and joints 
c. Too much calcium can cause joint problems 
16) Some treats and supplements may be beneficial 
a. Chews: may be beneficial for dental hygiene 
b. Antioxidants may be beneficial especially in dogs which are not properly trained or are eating a lot of extra fat. Some manufacturers are including increased antioxidants. If feeding a diet without increased antioxidants, 10-15 IU/kg vitamin E (as alphatocopheryl acetate) may be given daily of 100 IU/kg every week by mouth. Vitamin C may also be beneficial but the dose is less clear. It is probably best to give vitamin C immediately before exercise as it does not last long in the blood and 100-200 mg may be sufficient for the average medium to large sized dog. 
c. Glucosamine or green lipped mussel powder may help dogs with arthritis but should only be used in consultation with your veterinarian 
d. Fish oil may reduce inflammation of the feet in dogs working in snow. Some diets already contain fish oil and should not be supplemented. 


Human food 

17) Not complete and balanced so must have supplements such as vitamins and minerals added if more than ten percent of the diet. This is not recommended unless diet has been formulated to be balanced by a professional with nutritional experience. 
18) Uncooked meat represents a likely source of infection especially in young, pregnant, infirm animals or stressed animals such as working dogs. 


19) Bones, especially spiky bones such as the vertebrae found in chicken necks can get lodged in the esophagus. Too many bones can also cause constipation. 



Neutraceuticals and herbs 

Quality, consistency, absorption, potency and efficacy are uncertain. Toxicity and therapeutic index have not been established. Some may prove beneficial in the future but are not currently recommended. 


How much to feed? 
Adjust food intake to maintain optimum body weight and condition. Do not feed too much. The slim-line model is best. 



Ribs should be felt but not seen. There should be a waist visible from the side and from above. The recommendation on the back of the packet can provide a guide but there is much individual variation. There is some evidence that lean dogs perform better than heavier ones. Lean dogs also live longer and have fewer joint problems. 

Weigh your dog every two weeks and keep a record. Always use the same scale and do it before a meal but after urinating and defecating at the same time each day and not after exercise. Sudden changes in body weight are an indication of dehydration. Slow changes will give some indication of whether you are feeding too little or too much. Also keep a record of body condition score. Take a photo for comparison so you can see how things change over time. Your dog should have a body condition score of 5 on the 9 point Purina scale. 

A working dog such as a Collie working sheep needs almost twice as much food as a couch potato pet dog. A racing sled dog has the most extreme work out and may need twice as much again. When starting training, add ½ 16 oz can for each 8 oz cup of dry food normally fed. Over three days, reduce dry by half and double canned food. Then increase canned food as necessary to maintain weight, body condition and stamina. 


When and how often to feed? 
There is little data on this subject. The custom of racing sled dogs is probably the best one to follow: dogs race for 4-6 hours then take a rest for 2-4 hours during which a high fat and protein snack is fed. Dogs then race for an additional 4-6 hours before eating a full meal. Exercise markedly affects stomach and intestinal function. It is wise, therefore, not to exercise until 2-4 hours after a large meal. 


continued in next post. It was too long.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Water 
Dehydration must be avoided. Offer water continuously during exercise. Pet dogs on average need 50 ml/kg per day (2-5 pints per day for a 45-100 lb working dog). Working dogs may need 4 or 5 times that amount (1-3 gallons/day). Adding three level tablespoons of table sugar to a liter of water may help water absorption and will increase the recuperation of dogs at rest stops. 


Salt and other electrolytes 
There should be enough salt in the food. Salt may improve water absorption in dehydrated animals. A recipe for oral electrolyte replacement solutions is provided below which can be used if a dog becomes dehydrated but a recent study showed no benefit of such a solution over plain water in working dogs. Giving sodium bicarbonate (a "shake") before exercise also has been shown not to be beneficial in dogs. 
Oral rehydration recipe (level spoonfuls): 
To one liter of drinking water add: 
3 tablespoons of table sugar or 1 ½ tablespoons of glucose 
½ teaspoon of table salt 
¼ teaspoon of salt substute 
½ teaspoon of baking soda 
Use immediately. 


Gastric Dilatation Volvulus: "Bloat" 

20) Predisposing factors suggested by epidemiology (Glickman et al.): 
a. Large size 
b. Large depth to width ration for body conformation 
c. Male gender 
d. Being underweight 
e. Eating only one meal per day 
f. A faster rate of eating 
g. Fearful or nervous temperament 
h. An event perceived by the owner as "stressful" to their dog 
21) Reduced risk: 
a. Table scraps or canned food included with a dry dog food 
b. Happy and easy going character 
22) Recommendation: 
a. Feed twice daily 
b. Add some canned food to dry diet 
c. Avoid stress associated with eating 
d. Do not allow to be underweight 

Recommendation: 

23) Feed a national brand pet food that says on the label that it has been tested using AAFCO approved feeding and is complete and balanced. 


24) Feed a high fat dry food for maintenance. Add a canned food during periods of work. 
25) Feed enough to keep dog lean. 
26) Do not feed supplements such as meat, bones, calcium or vitamins 
27) Give 100 IU/kg vitamin E once a week by mouth. Give 100 mg vitamin C one hour before exercise and repeat every 6-8 hours during exercise. 
28) Keep treats to a minimum (<10 percent of the diet). Most of the diet should be pet food. 
29) Give a dental chew once daily. 
30) Make sure access to water at least every half hour during exercise. 
31) Feed at least four hours before exercise and after exercise. 
32) Rest dogs after 4-6 hours work: give sugar water and a high protein high fat snack. 


Sooo just some FOOD for thought (no pun intended) Sorry this is sooo long but I feel VERY important info.


----------



## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

> A couple of things to keep in mind: your dog needs plenty of water - high protein diets are very draining on the kidneys. I don't know what the consensus is on this board about kidney problems, UTI and high protein diets but if your dog has any of these kind of diseases, then a high protein diet would not be recommended at all (and that's in my opinion although a lot of people seem to think it's cock and bull).


No you are mostly correct. High protein diets for dogs with healthy kidneys is just fine. Whether it is needed or not is another matter. As someone else mentioned it may be too rich for some dogs. The exception to this rule may be growing puppies or older or senior dogs that may be experiencing renal failure or reduced renal function, obviously these dogs shouldn't be on high protein diets. Years ago tests were done on these high protein diets to see what affect if any it would have on kidney function. They did find that it had a pronounced affect on the kidneys. The only problem was that the tests were done on rats. Completely different digestive systems than canines. Take a look at Wolves (close relative to our domesticated dog) , while they can eat almost anything during hard times, their main staple is meat. Meat is high in protein. Dogs with healthy kidneys are perfectly capable of digesting high protein diets.

my 2 cents.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

I think the kidney fears are mostly because of human issues with high protein diets exacerbating kidney issues. I'm not a vet or anything, though, so I can't in good conscience advise anyone with a dog with kidney issues to feed high protein food -- but I have read articles online that were intended to debunk the link in dogs, and they made some good points.

(ETA: These articles often site the fact that anti-"high"-protein advocates are using data from experiments with rats, like TomN mentioned. Which they shouldn't.)

I stopped eating meat when I was 11 years old, but I've read that the average american eats three times as much protein as is required. Some people eat much more (like people on no-carbohydrate diets). But confusing the problems this causes for people with problems it might cause for dogs seems silly; it's another case of people thinking of dogs as little humans.

Some people are saying that "high" protein diets (meaning mostly meat diets) are "too rich" for some dogs; why do you think this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but what are your reasons?

Also, someone said that each dog is different, and some do best on foods like science diet. But just because one dog does fine on science diet doesn't mean that same dog wouldn't do even better on something higher quality.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

And as always, it depends where you look for your sources. As a strength and conditioning coach, I find that most people actually take in way too little protein. Enough to survive, yes, but not enough to fortify muscles and prevent systemic inflamation. I have no idea what the correlation is for dogs, but most humans should be taking in at least 1g per per pound of body weight. If you look at your diet you'll probably find that you are far from that.

The only reason I mention it is that we need to consider the huge gap between daily Minimums and daily recommendations. Too bad there aren't any canine strength coaches out there.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Verde, you're probably thinking about the dietary requirements of professional athletes and people who exercise a lot more than most people. Protein is very important, but it's better in lower quantities than, say, complex carbohydrates from whole grains.

I get plenty of protein. I eat eggs and dairy, lots of nuts and seeds, tofu, soy milk, beans, and dense protein and fiber rich breads.

Most americans eat way more meat than is healthy.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, I completely disagree with you there, but we can argue that in a human forum. My point is that there are many different takes on the same issue and that quality vs. quantity is an issue as well. For example, tofu is not a complete protein, etc. (regular eggs vs. omega 3 eggs, grass-fed beef vs. regular beef, etc.).

But I do agree with you that many eat way more of the WRONG kind of meat.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Here is an excellent source page to MANY MANY articles from experts in the fields of veterinary medicine. nutrition and so on all pertaining to the arguements about proteins and renal failure/kidney disease.

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#protein

There is A LOT of interesting points here. This was a must have page for me when I was helping my mom deal with renal failure in her shih tzu who was born with kidneys the size of grapes insted of being the size of plums like they should have been.


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

I find it interesting (but mostly scary) that some people think a high protein diet for dogs is bad. 

Here is the scientific formula for dogs:

High protein / low carbs / no grains = healthy dog


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

Dog_Shrink,
Great stuff. Thanks!


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

bully said:


> I find it interesting (but mostly scary) that some people think a high protein diet for dogs is bad.
> 
> Here is the scientific formula for dogs:
> 
> High protein / low carbs / no grains = healthy dog


It's not that high protein diets for dogs is bad perse... it's what those proteins are derived from ... meat source, fat source, etc. where a lot of debate lies. Higer protein diets with insufficient exercise HAS been proven to lead to negative behaviors and aggression issues in some dogs, but that is by no means the norm, BUT should be considered when picking a diet for your pet. I can't entirely agree with the grain free concept because dog's do need plant matter as well as protein for a healthy lifestyle.

PS you're welcome Mattverde


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> Some people are saying that "high" protein diets (meaning mostly meat diets) are "too rich" for some dogs; why do you think this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but what are your reasons?


I think I can answer this even though my dog has no problems with this. She likes high protein grainless 'rich' foods just fine.

People are saying some foods are too rich because some dogs cannot digest them properly and end up with loose stool even after being fed the same thing for 6 months +. I know a few dogs that cannot eat what we call super premium food. They've tried Orijen, EVO, Instinct, TOTW, Wellness Core all with the same results, diarrhea, loose stool. Even when they cut down the serving size.

I know some other dogs that cannot eat dog food that is higher in fat like EVO and get loose stool or stomach upset.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I think I can answer this even though my dog has no problems with this. She likes high protein grainless 'rich' foods just fine.
> 
> People are saying some foods are too rich because some dogs cannot digest them properly and end up with loose stool even after being fed the same thing for 6 months +. I know a few dogs that cannot eat what we call super premium food. They've tried Orijen, EVO, Instinct, TOTW, Wellness Core all with the same results, diarrhea, loose stool. Even when they cut down the serving size.
> 
> I know some other dogs that cannot eat dog food that is higher in fat like EVO and get loose stool or stomach upset.


I've also seen a lot of this reported on a pit bull forum . A lot of trouble tolerating Evo and orijen. Same conplaint.. loose runny stool and stomach upset.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I can't entirely agree with the grain free concept because dog's do need plant matter as well as protein for a healthy lifestyle.


Uh, grain free foods typically do contain plant matter (and usually from much better sources than grainy kibbles) -- just not _grains_. You are mistakenly equating grain-free with plant-free.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> I think I can answer this even though my dog has no problems with this. She likes high protein grainless 'rich' foods just fine.
> 
> People are saying some foods are too rich because some dogs cannot digest them properly and end up with loose stool even after being fed the same thing for 6 months +. I know a few dogs that cannot eat what we call super premium food. They've tried Orijen, EVO, Instinct, TOTW, Wellness Core all with the same results, diarrhea, loose stool. Even when they cut down the serving size.
> 
> I know some other dogs that cannot eat dog food that is higher in fat like EVO and get loose stool or stomach upset.


I guess I just almost always hear really positive stories from people switching to the premium foods. I barely ever come across stories about dogs that can't tolerate any of them. Do you really think that enough dogs have problems with the premium foods that we should consider it an issue?


----------



## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

Not to start a silly food debate thing over again but can it be that some dogs don't do well on mainly meat diets because their bodies have gotten quite used to being fed food with a significant grain content? For example, in humans, if you're grew up eating lots of meat, it's kind of hard to suddenly become a vegetarian. Your body gets weird cravings, and it does take you quite a while to get used to it. 

So in the same way, if puppies grew up on corn and wheat, maybe their mind is triggered by whatever chemicals is in that and their body constantly craves the corn and wheat? So when you eventually do switch a dog to a higher quality food, it might take their bodies a little longer to get back into the swing of things. 

I'm just saying... perhaps keeping your dog on a steady diet of quality kibble like Orijen for two to three months would be better than changing it at the moment their poop or fur becomes questionable.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

There have been people on my pit bull forum that have tried some premium foods for nearly 6 months trying different things to help their dogs transition and they never quite make it so they switch again to something less "rich" and they do better. 

I have not really reaserched the contents of granfree diets, but I'm sure they do contain some plant matter in order to make it a balanced diet. Thanks for pointing that out


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I fed through 2 large bags of EVO back when it came out and Max never had firm stools. I was probably overfeeding. I was successful in transitioning him to raw though. Size of the meals is sort of important. The real meat/bone/organ raw food doesn't look like much food but the teensy amount of EVO was really hard to deal with. I wouldn't be able to handle feeding ZiwiPeak at all!


----------



## STPFAN (Sep 27, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> I wouldn't worry about high protein levels. If the very best diet is mostly raw meat, I really don't think you need to worry about grain-free kibble being too high in protein.
> 
> I feed all my pets grain-free, mostly about 42% protein foods, and not a single one has ever had digestive issues. If anything, the high protein is easier for them to digest (although it can be a little rough at the very beginning when they are used to cheapo shelter food like science diet).
> 
> Is there a specific reason you are worried about protein?


Wrong...you *should* worry about high protein diets coming from kibble!

Protein in raw meat and protein in kibble are not the same!



TomN said:


> No you are mostly correct. High protein diets for dogs with healthy kidneys is just fine. Whether it is needed or not is another matter. As someone else mentioned it may be too rich for some dogs. The exception to this rule may be growing puppies or older or senior dogs that may be experiencing renal failure or reduced renal function, obviously these dogs shouldn't be on high protein diets. Years ago tests were done on these high protein diets to see what affect if any it would have on kidney function. They did find that it had a pronounced affect on the kidneys. The only problem was that the tests were done on rats. Completely different digestive systems than canines. Take a look at Wolves (close relative to our domesticated dog) , while they can eat almost anything during hard times, their main staple is meat. Meat is high in protein. Dogs with healthy kidneys are perfectly capable of digesting high protein diets.
> 
> my 2 cents.


Again...the confusion of protein from raw meat compared to that of kibble are different and will affect the body different!
Wolves eat raw meat...not kibble...raw meat is 70% water and about 7-9% protein along with natural enzymes! Raw meat is not 40% dry & cooked protein with the enzymes destroyed in the cooking process and vits/mins added after to it!


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

My main question is in regards to grain-free vs. grain-included kibble. I don't have the means to feed raw.

I appreciate the raw vs. kibble debate, but that seems like a whole other can of worms.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm not sure if this will help at all or what but I do know of a great web site that gives analasys on ALL brands of dogfood. 

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/

Hopefully this will be able to provide you with some more info to making an informed decision for your pup.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

Right on. I frequent that site.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

it seems to me that you have already given your pup a high quality pricy food and switching to grain free shouldn't be breaking the bank for ya. I definately see benifits for the dog who suffers constant gut issues, but FYI... fiber products aren't broken down in the gut but in the intestines by the liver and pancreas. So I don't know that grain free would help a dog with gut issues. 

Sooo thinking of you I did a little searching and came upon this site. Personally I am NOT a big fan of pharmacuticals in dogs. maybe at the very least you can get some ideas on how to help your pup with her irritable stomach. 

http://www.earthclinic.com/pets.html

Hope this helps.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

Thanks so much for your time! Another great site. Some of the suggestions are things we have tried and have worked (ie. splitting his food into 3 meals).

And he is sensitive but not a wreck--if he were I would not attempt another high grade product. But, I think it's worth exploring some more of these foods to find the right fit. Perhaps with a scoop of pumpkin.


----------



## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

bully said:


> I find it interesting (but mostly scary) that some people think a high protein diet for dogs is bad.
> 
> Here is the scientific formula for dogs:
> 
> High protein / low carbs / no grains = healthy dog


Wow that is pretty scientific... You should join up with the FDA and get a swine flu vaccine out quick......


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

shets114 said:


> Wow that is pretty scientific... You should join up with the FDA and get a swine flu vaccine out quick......


I'm working on it.

Although I am completely against those useless "flu" vaccines.



Dog_Shrink said:


> *Higer protein diets with insufficient exercise HAS been proven to lead to negative behaviors and aggression issues in some dogs*, but that is by no means the norm, BUT should be considered when picking a diet for your pet. I can't entirely agree with the grain free concept because dog's do need plant matter as well as protein for a healthy lifestyle.
> 
> PS you're welcome Mattverde


Sorry I need proof.  That is crazy.

grains as in wheat, corn, barley - dogs need *zero* of this cheap filler. Please read the ingredients of science diet vs. Orijen. You will see the difference between proper vegetables and saw dust.


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Top Five Ingredients - Science diet: (adult large - 23% protein)
Ground Whole Grain Corn, 
Chicken By-Product Meal, 
Soybean Meal, 
Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), 
Soybean Oil 


Orijen: (adult - 40% protein)
Fresh deboned chicken,
chicken meal, 
turkey meal,
russet potato, 
fresh deboned pacific salmon
herring meal,
sweet potato
, peas,
fresh deboned lake whitefish
, fresh deboned walleye,
chicken fat
, chicken liver
, salmon meal
, fresh deboned turkey, 
fresh whole eggs
, fresh deboned herring

should i keep going ?


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

Great conversation/debate here. Thanks again, all.

I made a decision (at least one to try) and am going with Acana Grasslands.
It seems like a good step in that it is quality product but with a moderate (33%) protein load. Since the Canidae he is on now is 28%, I feel that this is a positive step rather than a leap of faith.

I will write back to tell how he does on it and give my 2 cents on the Acana.

Only downside is it is $$$. $35 for a 16 lb bag. Ouch.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

That is INSANE Matt... I would make sure you check the feeding amounts listed on the bag (to weight ratio) just to get an idea of how much he'll be eating. I know some people that use to feed 3-4 cups of a lower quality food now only need to feed about half that on a high quality food, however if they have you giving 3-4 cups just like the cheaper food that doesn't make sense. Better should mean dogs eating less to get more right? 

And to Bully "Higer protein diets with insufficient exercise HAS been proven to lead to negative behaviors and aggression issues in some dogs," This was a study done by Purdue veterinary university. If you need proof feel free to google it. You can search "higher protein linked to unprovoked aggression in dogs"... you'll have all the proof you need


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

My boy has plenty of energy and he works it out so I'm not worried about it. He's also 21 pounds so the amount of food is never that great. I'd rather spend an extra $30/month and get him quality.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Ya know what kills me sometimes is people say that their dog is high energy thereby needing hi protein food to feed that energy... Did ya ever stop to think for a second that it's the HIGH PROTEIN that is making your dog high energy? Protein is fuel that needs to be burned NOW where as a higher fat diet is protein that can be stored and burned later. I have had several client's (and myself) switch their high energy dogs to a lower protein higher fat diet and it's amazing how much they mellow out... not saying zombie puppy, but just a regular amount of energy that doesn't seem like their dog is constantly on speed. 

And Matt.. I do agree that if all it is adding is $30 a month to the budget then by all means go with the better quality food, just make sure you've done all the comparisons as far as fats and proteins are concerned. It's a very controversial subject.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Actually I think most people tend to switch their dogs to high protein just because they are high energy. I know I switched my dog because she was high energy even on Royal Canin. 

I hardly think people switch first and then notice their dogs are high energy? That's a bit strange considering most dogs aren't fed grain free when they come from the breeder or shelter or whatever.


----------



## mattverde (Aug 8, 2007)

I am not really buying the food=aggression argument. I think unless you're feeding your dog stimulants, the energy that they get from their food is the energy they are meant to have. Protein is not a stimulant and not even a good energy source--that's where your carbs and fats come in. I think the carb=aggression would be a better case for argument, though I wouldn't back that one either.

Personally, my dog gets his energy from his young age and breeding.


----------



## Mike D'Abruzzo (Oct 12, 2009)

generally most of the things people asociate with too much protein : kidney, liver, behavioral problems, etc

are based on studies that were using *poor quality proteins*. There is big difference between protein that comes from corn and protein that comes from chicken for instance. Corn protein will cause much more toxins as the liver breaks it down to get to the useable protein. This is what causes the extra stress on the liver and then the kidneys have to get rid of the nitrates that are a byproduct of this breakdown.

By-products from this breakdown do indeed go to the brain which will effect certain things such as impulse control. I'm pretty sure it is the ammonia that does this - but havent researched this in a while so do your own due dilligence i guess.

Remember, all of these "grain free" diets on the market are mostly for marketing purposes. A grain free diet will usually just use potatoes as their filler instead of using rice which equal quality foods may use. They are both starches and fillers - it is just that one is a grain.

The problem with grains is when they are used as the protein source such as wheat and corn.

there are some web sites out there that are giving ratings to food based on some broad rules that arent always based on a perfect science.


----------



## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Ya know what kills me sometimes is people say that their dog is high energy thereby needing hi protein food to feed that energy... Did ya ever stop to think for a second that it's the HIGH PROTEIN that is making your dog high energy? Protein is fuel that needs to be burned NOW where as a higher fat diet is protein that can be stored and burned later. I have had several client's (and myself) switch their high energy dogs to a lower protein higher fat diet and it's amazing how much they mellow out... not saying zombie puppy, but just a regular amount of energy that doesn't seem like their dog is constantly on speed.


This is so wrong.
CARBOHYDRATES is SUGAR which is burned first. PLEASE do some research into FOOD and DOGS digestive systems before posting. This is by no means a personal insult, but people need to be warned that the above post is incorrect.



mattverde said:


> I am not really buying the food=aggression argument. I think unless you're feeding your dog stimulants, the energy that they get from their food is the energy they are meant to have. Protein is not a stimulant and not even a good energy source--that's where your carbs and fats come in. I think the carb=aggression would be a better case for argument, though I wouldn't back that one either.


Thank-you  Protein is the building block to GROW not go insane.


----------



## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

I know this has been said, but I'd also like to chime in.

Protein is the building blocks of cells. It's what helps you create new cells, repair damaged ones, and it plays a significant role in your immune system. It is not an energy fuel. That would be carbohydrates. That's why you hear about athletes 'carb-loading' before a game. 

I do understand that everyone has different opinions about what constitutes a healthy diet, for both people and animals, but let's not just start making up the science when there's plenty of real science to argue about. 

Here's an article written by a nutritional education specialist regarding how the human body uses protein. There is no science that says a canine's body uses protein any differently. There is science that shows they need more high quality protein than humans, by a large amount, which is why some feel a meat heavy diet is more appropriate to meet a canine's extraordinary need for protein.

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2473/T-3163web.pdf


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

The concerns about protein and kidney and liver disease are only after the dog is sick. Protein doesn't cause the disease, it just needs to be managed for a sick dog. Ammonia production is the enemy in liver disease so low ammonia proteins are fed. Phosphorus is the enemy in kidney disease so low phosphorus proteins are fed. Purines are the enemy in Dal kidney stones so low purine proteins are fed. Sick and old dogs need more protein than healthy dogs to rebuild the body.


----------



## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Mike D'Abruzzo said:


> Remember, all of these "grain free" diets on the market are mostly for marketing purposes. A grain free diet will usually just use potatoes as their filler instead of using rice which equal quality foods may use. They are both starches and fillers - it is just that one is a grain.


Yes, most of the grain free foods use potatoes instead of grains. But, first of all, potatoes are much better for dogs than grains like corn. Second, they usually use whole potatoes, which is a much better food source than "cereals" or "wheat middling." Third, they typically use far less potato and fillers, as evidenced by the potato being much lower on the ingredient list, and the 40%+ protein versus 20% in lower quality foods.

It's not just about those foods being grain free. It's the whole package. Most of those brands have a different outlook towards dog food and they use better meats, real vegetables, less harmful preservatives, etc. Talking about "grain free" foods in these threads is just a shorthand for all that's better about those foods.


----------

