# Border collie nutz.....



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

there have been a few threads on here for Paps and Pits and what-nots.....i want to meet all the other BC crazies on here.....

these are mine, past and present.....many yrs ago i had a Bl and Tan girl that the vet and i were 99.9% positive was about 3/4 BC and 1/4 GSD....she had been thrown from a vehicle doing about 35 mph into a ditch in front a friend of a friends house at about 3 mo and i took her in...had her only about 3 yrs and had to rehome her when i started a fulltime job....she had separation issues sooo bad she was going to kill herself trying to get to where she thought i was....the household that took her had 2 families and another sister (the adults were all bro/sis and families) and there was ALWAYS someone home.....Kelly was in heaven and never alone

but, she was my beginning tho it took along time to get my next one....about 15 yrs ago we got my youngest son a pup....best friend he had for about 6 yrs (and even after, tho he got a bit busier in life and time spent w/ him was mostly at night...secrets!!!!....Tip just hung w/ me and my crew, then)....

this was Tipper (R.I.P.)









then came Lacey (some of you here may remember her)....she was/is my heart girl....been almost 3 yrs and i still can't think about her w/out the tears.....my beautiful girl...she was supposed to be my OH but nobody told her that









then, because of Lacey, 5 yrs later came TirCeo....loved the BC personality so much, had to add to it.....Tir is everything Lacey wasn't (except the intelligence) and made the PERFECT fit.....she has ATT-I-TUDE up the wazoo....
Tir today....









then, b/c i had to have another (no one can have just 1...or 2....or 3....) enter Saoirse....she's my rescue girl...gotten w/ the "excuse" that i needed another for goose work (well, i did!!!).....she was about 9-10 mo when i adopted her and i have spent the past 5 yrs working w/ minor quirks of hers (fear of stairs, fear of hallways--but only sometimes--and just all around [lovable] ditz)...


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

then, when TirCeo was almost 4, she gave me my next Border....well, actually there were 7, but i could only keep 1.....enter Titch...my only boy in my present group.....he's now 4....









and then, 2 yrs later, gave me my next one, Kilt.....i think this little girl was sent by my Lacey girl....she was the only tri girl (which i wanted) and seemed to say she was mine from the start...










so, for now anyway, this is my crew....show me yours and any stories on them you want....


----------



## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

my Happy dog is "my" first dog, she is 11 year old now and in her day she competed in Flyball and Agility(mostly Flyball) she has had her issues, but she is wonderful now, crazy smart, super agile, even at 11 she can outrun and outlast most young dogs. she had a slow start to flyball, started young and didnt compete for a long time due to temperment issues, but she DID eventually compete and VERY well(3.8 seconds), she earned her FMCH before I left the club because...well.. the club owner was nasty, almost everyone left shortly after I did, including her own son. I didnt go to a new club after that, although plenty wanted Happy on their roster. I continue to be very active withher and her tmepermnt issues have improved greatly, the the point that her shild aggression has become such a love of kids that she has gotten several kids over their fear of dogs, and her dog aggression is so improved that she now comes to work with me a a doggy daycare and is one of the good "tester" dogs for newbies. 










Misty is my 9 year old BC and my second, she also competed in flyball and agility, but even less then Happy did as I left the club shortl after she started competing. she is my clown and my "go to" dog when I need help at work, she lives to help me and is always at my side, no matter what is going on, no matter how much she dilikes it, if I am there, she wants to be there too. Misty throws her all into everything she does, and she is not so serious all the time like Happy is.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hi....lovely babies you have....my Titch has "breedist" issues...he has no problem w/ any BC or mix of but if it doesn't have Border in it, he doesn't care for them.....we've gotten past the attack part, now he just gives them "the evil eye"......but he's really good around people, 'specially children.....we're gonna start nursing homes soon....

haven't done any competing as of yet (cash flow, ya know?) but 3 are ready for agility comp. so hopefully that will start this yr and Kilt will be starting herding this spring......


----------



## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I havent competed with my girls in forever, but aside from having competed in flyball and agility they have also been trained in: disc, carting, stockwork, barral racing, obedience, and Rally





































and goofy tricks too


----------



## cbramsey (Nov 13, 2011)

This is Connor. He is a 4 month old Border Collie mix. He is our foster puppy right now. We will be formally adopting him next week. We have had him for 1 week now. He had a rough start due to being born in a field and having very limited human contact. We are still working with him to get over his aversion to human contact.

If anyone has any idea what he might be mixed with, it would be appreciated.


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Kit's a BC mix. She's my first and only dog, and I've fallen head over heels in love with her BC side. She's got some herding instinct and the right drive to successfully compete in disc and agility. She's inexcusably happy all the time.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i think you may be right on w/ the Aussie/BC mix on Connor (sig) but it'll be easier to tell when he's older (if you ever will be able to)....poor boy...just keep up w/ lots of love, patience and time will tell....

Kit is gorgeous....any idea on the mix? have you tried herding w/ her at all?


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

tirluc said:


> Kit is gorgeous....any idea on the mix? have you tried herding w/ her at all?


Best guess is BC x pointer, possibly BC x springer spaniel. I've not tried any formal herding with her. Funny story, though: the day after she became mine, I took her on an off-leash hike. I know, really stupid on my part. In my defense, I was a first-time owner and didn't know what I was doing. We both ended up covered in mud, head to toe. But I digress. At the time, I wasn't sure she was part BC, and I don't think I had a good handle on what that meant anyway. Our hike was through an area with livestock. Turns out, it's not a great idea to take an unpredictable adolescent BC mix near livestock unleashed. Before I realized what was happening, she was bolting towards cattle. She ducked right under the electric fence. Eventually I managed to get her back, but not before she hit the electric fence coming back towards me. Needless to say, I felt like the worst owner ever. We have not hiked that area since.

Also, even though I prefer to pursue other activities with Kit and therefore can't really afford herding lessons, she has found a substitute for sheep. On our morning walks, she likes to stare down the crows at the park until I let her off leash and give the release. Then she does this beautiful outrun, scattering them to the wind, and then heads back to me. She earns lots of laughs from onlookers.

Oh, and she LOVES geese, but they're a rare treat.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Does it count that two of my dogs have been called Border Collies? lol

Kim has been referred to as "the yellow border collie" at agility seminars, most recently by Daisy Peel...

Mira has been mistaken for a border collie by agility judges on a couple occasions. Mostly I think because of the way she runs when she gets jacked up, and their assumption that a largish black blur tearing around a course must be a BC 

That said I don't own one but I adore quite a few individuals, most particularly two I've run in agility (on a very limited basis, but honestly running them is like a drug...). So I guess you could say I'm "nutz" for certain BCs


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Shaina said:


> Does it count that two of my dogs have been called Border Collies? lol
> 
> Kim has been referred to as "the yellow border collie" at agility seminars, most recently by Daisy Peel...
> 
> ...


Shaina, i (kinda) remember what Kim and Webster look like and i'm _pretty_ sure that Kim doesn't have BC (i've wonder b/4 about Kelpie, tho) but you can never be sure on that either....i can't remember what Mira looks like, tho....post her here and let me see what she looks like....post all of them, actually, it's been a bit since i've looked at their pics (and i've always loved Webs ears  )


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Give me about 2 years on this thread.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

tirluc said:


> Shaina, i (kinda) remember what Kim and Webster look like and i'm _pretty_ sure that Kim doesn't have BC (i've wonder b/4 about Kelpie, tho) but you can never be sure on that either....i can't remember what Mira looks like, tho....post her here and let me see what she looks like....post all of them, actually, it's been a bit since i've looked at their pics (and i've always loved Webs ears  )


Kim doesn't look like a BC to me, lol, though she has herded one before.


















And Mira is all retriever...but sometimes she looks like this and it's probably hard to tell...lol









And you asked for ears...


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Give me about 2 years on this thread.


Down to 2 now, huh? LOL


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Shaina said:


> Kim doesn't look like a BC to me, lol, though she has herded one before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


don't discount the BC in Kim....look here and see the smooth coat.....Kim's got alot of the same herding stance going on in that 2nd pic......you never know.....
http://www.darnfar.com/FAQ/rough_vs_smooth_coat.htm

not to mention the variations of the BC......the only ones that look the same are the Barbie Collies....they look like cookie cutter dogs, just marked different 

Mira looks like the Lab/Irisher i used to train and Webs ears are just so cool....i think he's part "Batty Cota"


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> Give me about 2 years on this thread.


by next yr, i just may have 5....gotta see how it goes w/ Kilt between now and fall (testing, training, etc) plus where i'm at location and financial-wise....


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

tirluc said:


> by next yr, i just may have 5....gotta see how it goes w/ Kilt between now and fall (testing, training, etc) plus where i'm at location and financial-wise....


Time & money...gets us all.

Okay I won't discount the BC in Kim lol. Who knows, really. She definitely has a lot of herding instinct though she tends to mostly herd other dogs, especially other herders, given a chance. She's only been on sheep once, which was an entertaining experience, but I hope to do more herding with her this year since it sounds like there are more opportunities here than where we used to live.

Mira's genetics are know btw...she's a Flat-Coated Retriever. Can't post a pic from my phone but there are threads where she doesn't look like a lunatic and it's easier to tell . But considering the history of the breed, Lab X Setter is a very good guess! She was bred by wabanafcr who is a member of this forum.

And yes Web's ears make me laugh every single day lol


----------



## zdonBGSU (May 7, 2011)

love your BCs btw tirluc

Border Collie / Corgi? mix here: Luke.





































at petco...


----------



## workerant (Feb 28, 2011)

My dog is a shelter mutt, but we strongly suspect she's a Border Collie mix. Kenda weighs just under 25 pounds, so we figure she's mixed with something small and sneaky. She has a strong herding instinct (she re-crossed a VERY cold river several times to keep a hiking group together, tries to herd any livestock we come across, used to nip at our heels until we broke her of it, etc.) She has The Eye when working with stock or flying toys like balls and frisbees. She is very smart and excelled at the small amount of agility training we've had so far. She has also been a colossal PITA to leash train, which I understand is also a BC thing. So enough with the introduction...

Getting ready to jump in the lake:









With an actual Border Collie:









In profile:


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Shaina said:


> Mira's genetics are know btw...she's a Flat-Coated Retriever. Can't post a pic from my phone but there are threads where she doesn't look like a lunatic and it's easier to tell . But considering the history of the breed, Lab X Setter is a very good guess! She was bred by wabanafcr who is a member of this forum.
> 
> And yes Web's ears make me laugh every single day lol


ok, NOOOWWW i remember that part.....actually, my 1st thought was Flat-coat, but then i thought you had found her so my next thought was the Lab/Irisher.....but i would never think BC on her, at all.....

zdon, i think you're right w/ the BC/Corgi for Luke.....but he could, also, be a dwarf BC....they seem to be "cropping up" a lot lately......


workerant, Kenda looks like she definitely has some BC and for size, BC's do come that small, but her head/expression says way different.....can't quite put my finger on it.....JRT, maybe? Border/Jacks are quite popular.....and that might account for the training to leash, too....i never had much problem w/ training to leash, just the "HEEL, dammit!!!!" part  .....try 4 like that ...thank God for head collars.....


----------



## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

This thread makes me so happy 

This is Cooper. He's my dad's dog and for all intents and purposes, he's the reason my fiance and I became BC people. He'll be two next week.









This is our first Border, Colby (with a dirty face!). She is Cooper's 1/2 sister (same mother, different father). She's a little over a year old. I love her like a child.









Here's our newest addition, Ace. He's 10 weeks old today.









We always say that once you go Border [collie], you don't go back. I can see we're not the only ones.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

tirluc said:


> by next yr, i just may have 5....gotta see how it goes w/ Kilt between now and fall (testing, training, etc) plus where i'm at location and financial-wise....


Temptation! I probably will need another 2 years though to save for a house. gotta get out of the rentals. Ugh

On a positive note, I'm volunteering with the local border collie rescue and will let ya'll know how it goes. We have an adoption event in mid February.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

tirluc said:


> .....but i would never think BC on her, at all.....


Um yeah me neither lol. When the judge came up to me to tell me my black BC had a fabulous agility run I was sure he had confused me with another handler. Nope. He meant Mira. Made for an awkward moment lol.


----------



## workerant (Feb 28, 2011)

tirluc said:


> workerant, Kenda looks like she definitely has some BC and for size, BC's do come that small, but her head/expression says way different.....can't quite put my finger on it.....JRT, maybe? Border/Jacks are quite popular.....and that might account for the training to leash, too....i never had much problem w/ training to leash, just the "HEEL, dammit!!!!" part  .....try 4 like that ...thank God for head collars.....


Well, JRT would account for the "small and sneaky." :biggrin1: You're right, though, her face is more terrier than collie. I've had the same suspicion as you, but being a roadside treasure, she might be pretty far removed from any purebred genes.

I wish those DNA tests were worth a flip. I'd love to know for sure.


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

workerant said:


> She has also been a colossal PITA to leash train, which I understand is also a BC thing.


I know a BC named PITA. And not after the bread, either.


----------



## eeloheel (Dec 28, 2010)

Sadly, thanks to his family having a divorce and the side we DON'T talk to being the side that kept him, I won't get to see this boy... Makes my heart ache so badly, I was in love with him. We were all over the "WE'LL TAKE HIM NO PROBLEM" during the divorce in case he found himself homeless...



















Me and the pupper-dupper.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

melundie, Cooper reminds me of our old boy, Tipper, when he was young.....thought that was a dirty face, i know those all to well
is Ace a smooth or light rough coat? i love his colouring....

eeloheel, so sad for you both that you won't get to see each other anymore (maybe they'll decide they don't want him, after all, and give him to you  )


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Someone stopped me randomly in the hall at work yesterday and said "I'm thinking of getting a BC and I heard you have one. Can we get coffee sometime?" I was like *whoa* - you see these questions all the time on forums, but I've never actually answered someone's dog procuring questions in person. I found it a little funny because almost exactly 3 years ago, I had that same conversation with the only person I knew at the time who owned BC's. 

Should be a fun chat, if we go thru with it.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

when i talk to some one about getting one, i don't necessarily try to talk them out of it, but really stress the "time" it take to have a happy, well adjusted, Border.....i don't consider them to be any harder or more "time consuming" than just about any other breed, but they can be quite a handful if that time isn't spent.....

good luck w/ your talk.....


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

tirluc said:


> when i talk to some one about getting one, i don't necessarily try to talk them out of it, but really stress the "time" it take to have a happy, well adjusted, Border.....i don't consider them to be any harder or more "time consuming" than just about any other breed, but they can be quite a handful if that time isn't spent.....
> 
> good luck w/ your talk.....


Oh, I fully intend to stress how much time and effort it takes. I was thinking of offering to take her to agility class with me sometime - plenty of BC's to meet there, and it would give a newbie some idea of what level of mental stimulation is required on a regular basis. I actually think this person would make a good BC owner, though, so my intention isn't to talk her out of it.


----------



## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

tirluc, yeah, Coop is a good boy.  He has the most intense "eye" I've ever seen. I think it's his light amber eyes...And as far as I'm concerned, the dirtier Colby is, the happier she is  Ace's mom was a smooth and his dad was a rough. I figure he'll be a smooth based on the fact that 1) short hair is dominant to long and 2) Coop & Colb were way fuzzier by his age. I typically prefer the rough/light rough coats, but I think the smooth coat will look good with his markings--definitely won't hide them!


----------



## eeloheel (Dec 28, 2010)

tirluc said:


> eeloheel, so sad for you both that you won't get to see each other anymore (maybe they'll decide they don't want him, after all, and give him to you  )


Even though I will miss him for as long as I live, it's for the best. Living in the city with one herding dog is hard enough. At least the parent who kept him lives out in the country. Sometimes I drive by in hopes of getting a glimpse of him. But I will forever remember that he definitely liked me more than her. 

Also, I believe he came from the same rescue as donzBGSU's border.  They're a good rescue.


----------



## Subro (Dec 24, 2011)

This is my rescue Border Collie called Emily!


----------



## Hillary_B (Dec 12, 2011)

My border collie is nutz.

Max is eleven months old, any suggestions to learn more about his odd Border Collie behaviors (not the common things like herding)?


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Hillary_B said:


> View attachment 31276
> 
> 
> My border collie is nutz.
> ...


are you talking about things to do w/ him? things to keep him occupied?....agility, rally, flyball....these things are GREAT to get into w/ him.....just remember, the Border is a highly intelligent breed and very "driven"......anything you can do to stimulate their mind is a good thing (just don't let them learn anything that you don' EVER want them to know (open front doors, drive your car , etc).....they love to learn and they love to spend time w/ their people.....


----------



## Vicky88 (Jan 29, 2012)

This is my border collie Holly.


----------



## Hillary_B (Dec 12, 2011)

tirluc, 

I'm talking about obsessive behaviors like chasing shadows on the wall.

He only does this when we have guests over.
He does love people, but at home he won't pay attention to them. He doesn't have any other trouble being occupied...he loves frisbee, doing tricks, going jogging...and even lying around on his bed. But he goes after the shadows as soon as anyone comes over.


----------



## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Hillary_B said:


> tirluc,
> 
> I'm talking about obsessive behaviors like chasing shadows on the wall.
> 
> ...


My parents Border is the same way (except all the time!). When he was younger we showed him a laser pointer. Having no experience with borders we thought it was hilarious! He was so into it. Now he goes outside every day at dusk to watch shadows. He can't see a flashlight or a reflection of sunlight without getting totally fixated.

After a considerable amount of research (2 years worth) I think it pretty much boils down to 2 things:

1. It might not make any sense to you, but somehow it's intrinsically rewarding for your dog. The first (or second or third or whatever) time it happened, you or someone else probably went, that's SO FUNNY! Maybe somebody cast a shadow of their hand and the dog chased it around? Well, based on everyone's reaction, your dog made it a game or a job (as borders are famous for doing). He thought, "My people, or perhaps guests, in this case, react in this particular way when I do this activity." So he keeps doing it. 

2. He's bored. You're paying attention to guests and not him...until he starts looking at shadows. Even if you don't give him what you'd consider "good" attention or even if you don't react every time, Borders are smart enough to know that even one out of ten times he'll get the reaction he's looking for.

Some people will argue that a border will never be fully happy or satisfied unless they have sheep. You have no idea how many forum posts and books and articles I read that said once your dog starts chasing cars, it's over. We've been working diligently with Colby for 3 months to get her to focus on us when she sees a car. She has come leaps and bounds, but it's taken lots and lots of work. 

I'm not sure if you're interested in stopping the behavior or just figuring out the why, but it's possible to get your dog to not do it. It's easier said than done, but you have to redirect his energy. Telling him no or punishing him is not going to fix it. You have to give him a different job to do when you have guests come over and you have to be even more tenacious about it than he is. 

Good luck.


----------



## Hillary_B (Dec 12, 2011)

I can relate to what you said about people thinking it is funny/cute and encouraging it...but the thing is that guests want to focus on Max, say hi to him and pet him, but they can't because he is chasing the shadows.
We do need to be more diligent and redirect EVERY time he starts to shadow-chase, it's just that we can work with him for an hour, then the second we stop he is back to it. Why do you think he only does this when other people come over, not all the time? and what job can I give him when guests come over (we have tried playing, going outside, having him lie on his bed--but these only work short term)?
Thanks!!


----------



## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Yes, you have to redirect every, single time. I'll be honest--I haven't worked with my parents' BC and his shadow/light issues. However, I have worked with Colby and her car chasing/herding obsession...hopefully you'll be able to draw some parallels.

When we were working with Colby on her car chasing, we started small. We changed our "normal" walk to one that incorporated more back roads with less traffic and over time built up to walking on the path near a street with more traffic and finally crossing a street that use to make her completely INSANE. If I got excited after I saw that she was doing well and tried to push her to walking calmly near a busy street too soon, I stopped and we always finished the walk on a positive note. It took well over a month before she was totally fine to cross that street. I had a trainer once tell me that in order to train a dog to do something all the time, they have to do it right a thousand times and never wrong. I realize that is very daunting. There where days when I would get really upset about Colby trying to herd cars. I felt like people were right. That she would never not want to chase them, but I was persistent about it. I still am. Now, when a car goes past Colby has a few options 1) look at me, 2) sit and look at me 3) bump my fist with her nose and look at me. What I'm trying to say is you can't expect your dog to do it perfectly the first time. And even after a while, once you think you're good, you have to still work on it. In all honesty, it's probably going to be something you work at for the rest of your dog's life. That's not to say it won't get easier, but it's not going to be easy to start. 

I'd say where you need to start is by having people come over for a short time. Like, 15 minutes. Just come over and say hi or have a quick glass of wine and leave. That way it's less daunting for both you and your dog. Try giving him a stuffed KONG in his crate or on his bed. Depending on your dog, you might stuff it with peanut butter and then freeze it, chopped up apples/carrots/bananas or sugar-free yogurt (frozen). Since you're starting for a short time, just give him enough stuffing to last while the guest is there. Make sure you only give him the KONG when guests are over. That way, instead of thinking, "Okay, guests are over, I need to make sure these shadows don't get out of control!" he thinks, "Great! Guests are over. Now I get my special treat." Another option might be to get one of those treat cubes/balls or a puzzle game. Put some really high-value treats in it -- ones that your dog only gets when he would normally be chasing shadows.

Like I said before, I haven't worked with my parents dog on his shadow/light chasing issue. I just thought of the KONG or puzzle thing right now. Maybe there is a better solution, but I haven't thought of it. You're lucky in a way because it sounds like once the guests are gone, the behavior stops so it's a more controlled scenario than my parents, for example. They unfortunately haven't found a way to stop it from being dusk outside. I think the main thing is to start small and gradually move toward guests being over longer. 

I found this webpage to be particularly insightful: http://www.bordercollie.org/basics/living.html. Hopefully I'm helping out a little... I'm happy to try to help you more, feel free to ask or PM me.


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Shadow-chasing is extremely common in BCs. There was a genetic study done recently at Tufts University about shadow-chasing in BCs. They were asking people to send in blood samples for testing. My BC mix (just a mix, mind you) goes nuts for laser pointers, watch spots, etc. If you'd like to look up more information on the study, here's the info of the head researcher:
Niwako Ogata, DVM, PhD
Research associate, Animal Behavior
Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
Tufts University

As for the why, shadow chasing is nothing more than prey drive, which has been modified (through generations of BCs) into what we think of as herding behavior. Instead of wanting to kill the prey, the BC simply wants to control its movement. It makes a lot of sense that a dog bred specifically to control things that move might get a little obsessive about it and displace the behavior onto cars, shadows, etc. I disagree that the dog is chasing shadows because it is looking for attention. A BC who wants attention would sidle up to the person, lean on them, stare into their face, maybe put a paw in the lap. 

Now, stopping the behavior...As mel said, easier said than done. One option would be to provide the BC with alternate activities so they don't feel the need to displace so much. Mine enjoys herding crows at the park. I guess I'd suggest teaching a very solid "leave it" command. Then crate the dog and shine the laser pointer outside the crate. Tell the dog to leave it. Throw a party for calm behavior - BIG rewards. Slowly increase the time that the laser pointer is on and how erratic its movement is. Open the crate door and repeat all of these steps. Then skip the crate and repeat all of these steps. Eventually, the dog should be able to ignore it, no matter what. This will take a while to train - don't expect results in a week.


----------



## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Shadow-chasing is extremely common in BCs. There was a genetic study done recently at Tufts University about shadow-chasing in BCs. They were asking people to send in blood samples for testing. My BC mix (just a mix, mind you) goes nuts for laser pointers, watch spots, etc. If you'd like to look up more information on the study, here's the info of the head researcher:
> Niwako Ogata, DVM, PhD
> Research associate, Animal Behavior
> Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
> Tufts University


I'm interested to look into this a little later... 



> I disagree that the dog is chasing shadows because it is looking for attention. A BC who wants attention would sidle up to the person, lean on them, stare into their face, maybe put a paw in the lap.


I suppose it really depends on the dog. Maybe yours nuzzles up when he wants attention, but I've met plenty of dogs BCs and otherwise that do lots of naughty stuff and ultimately it does stem from boredom and/or wanting attention. 



> Now, stopping the behavior...As mel said, easier said than done. One option would be to provide the BC with alternate activities so they don't feel the need to displace so much. Mine enjoys herding crows at the park. I guess I'd suggest teaching a very solid "leave it" command. Then crate the dog and shine the laser pointer outside the crate. Tell the dog to leave it. Throw a party for calm behavior - BIG rewards. Slowly increase the time that the laser pointer is on and how erratic its movement is. Open the crate door and repeat all of these steps. Then skip the crate and repeat all of these steps. Eventually, the dog should be able to ignore it, no matter what. This will take a while to train - don't expect results in a week.


Not sure if your suggestion regarding putting your dog in a crate and shining a laser pointer was directed to me (rather, my parents) or to Hillary, but I have to say that if you're dog isn't already crazy about laser pointers, I'd be extremely hesitant to show him/her. It could backfire--BIG TIME. Like I said before, we showed Coop a laser pointer a few times and now he's not only crazy about laser pointers, but ANY sort of light source (flash lights, reflections of light off glass or metal, shadows...) things that you can't even control. Perhaps the worst part of it is that the light/shadow doesn't even have to move for him to fixate. Not to say my way is necessarily better than this, I would just think twice about it since Hillary's issue is relatively contained.

By the same token, if Colby had never shown interest in cars, I would never have taken her to the side of the road and tried to elicit the behavior so she could learn not to do it. I wouldn't have even rewarded calm behavior. It wasn't until she started trying to herd them that I started rewarding her for not doing it. I guess I'm probably paranoid because I've seen what a BC can become at his most neurotic. From the beginning, we've never shown Colby a laser pointer. Once at flyball someone brought one and tried to show it to her. I could have ripped his head off. I kind of did, metaphorically speaking. Thankfully she didn't show any interest in it and I doubt she even remembers it. 

I agree with you when you mention the need for a BC to control things--so why show them something they will never truly be able to control? Maybe the fact that your dog is a mix takes off some of that edge. The guy at flyball has a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and didn't realize that BCs don't forget things and can obsess. Even after the laser pointer or other light source is gone, Cooper still tries to find it. Sometimes for hours.

Hillary--I think you could achieve the same results by creating a shadow of your hand or other object, but on the flip-side your dog might get even more obsessed if you're creating the situation. He might try to make it into a game or a job. I think you might be better off giving him a different job to do altogether.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i found w/ mine that redirecting w/ something else wasn't the way to handle it......i had to take him completely "off" it and that meant "it IS NOT ALLOWED".......no if, and or buts......after a long time of him ignoring lights (never had a problem w/ the shadows, thankfully) then i started playing w/ him, on MY terms, w/ a laser light for short periods....we'd play, then we'd do something else (tricks, ball, whatever) then we'd play w/ the light then end it ALL w/ something else.....i never ended it w/ the light.......he's 4 yrs old and this is how we've been able to play w/ it for about a yr now.....

can't say it would work for you and your pup, just that that is what i found for mine.....

melundie has really great advice there, too......you must be totally consistant (i was w/ Titch for a long time...about a yr).......try using a leash when you have company so that he can't chase and you have more control (so you're not having to be totally distracted from your guests).......and "leave it" means "LEAVE IT" always......


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

melundie said:


> I'm interested to look into this a little later...
> 
> 
> I suppose it really depends on the dog. Maybe yours nuzzles up when he wants attention, but I've met plenty of dogs BCs and otherwise that do lots of naughty stuff and ultimately it does stem from boredom and/or wanting attention.
> ...


Oh, believe me, she's got that edge. I'd show you a video of the laser pointer behavior, but it was banned from my house a couple of years ago because I was afraid of turning it from a manageable obsession (obsessed only while it was present) to an all-the-time obsession. I don't need a dog who is constantly looking for a laser pointer that's not there. I bit off the vet's head, metaphorically speaking, when she tried to use the light from her otoscope (ear scope thingy) to tease Kit. But Hillary's dog is already exhibiting shadow-chasing behaviors that she finds disruptive, so I don't see that it would hurt to try to use a laser pointer as a training tool, to try to get the dog to quit obsessing over shadows.

My first suggestion was to teach a solid "leave it" so that you can tell the dog what the appropriate response to the laser pointer is, once they see it. They may initially get excited when they see the spot, but only calm behavior is rewarded. I'd also suggest starting with a stationary light so that the urge to control movement is not strong until they've learned the appropriate response. I'm breaking the behavior down into small, manageable pieces so that the dog can stay below threshold and learn to ignore the stimulus. Whenever possible, it's far better to change the dog's attitude towards the stimulus than to manage the problem. 

Obviously you couldn't train a car-obsessed dog the same way, because you'd risk them getting hit. But you could certainly put them in a crate or on a leash near a busy street and reward for calm behavior. The principle is the same.

It's interesting you say that you wouldn't try to train the dog not to chase cars until they started exhibiting the undesirable behavior. I know people who have done just that: take the leashed BC pup near a busy road and play clicker games where they get rewarded for ignoring moving vehicles. It's the "look at that" game from CU, except it's done proactively, instead of waiting for the problem to arise.


----------



## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

The point I was making re: the laser pointer is that it is not the same as a shadow and you _might_ turn your dog into a monster if you bring that into the picture.

Colby is the first dog I've ever had who even acknowledges the existence of cars. It never occurred to me to be "proactive" about it because my parents' BC could care less about them. Strange, right? He obsesses over shadows, but could care less about a tangible object... Anyway, we do the clicker (sometimes sans-clicker) game around traffic now. I think you also need to acquiesce to the fact that just because you have a border collie doesn't mean the car herding/chasing problem necessarily will arise, so why make it a "thing"?


----------



## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I just wanted to post the promise of overloading this thread with Gypsy pictures later. She's a mutt, border collie/Australian shepherd, but her appearance and behavior has everyone who meets her guessing BC. I'd say she favors that parent. 

Oddly, I've never heard of shadow-chasing in borders. I knew they could be motion sensitive. Gyps certainly is. But she's never shown any interest in shadows, laser pointers, or cars. She does, however, go nuts about squirt bottles. And we cannot fake fight - punch, kick, karate chop, etc. - in my house because Gypsy gets frantic. We're all very well behaved because of her. Hehe. I doubt that she's worried about us hurting. It's more the unpredictable motion that gets to her, I think.


----------



## 123fraggle (Feb 20, 2009)

Angel, the rescue BC. She will be 9 on March 26th. <3


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

melundie said:


> Strange, right? He obsesses over shadows, but could care less about a tangible object.


Not strange at all. A tangible object loses its allure once it is caught. But the laser can never be caught, so it is endlessly frustrating for a dog.



melundie said:


> I think you also need to acquiesce to the fact that just because you have a border collie doesn't mean the car herding/chasing problem necessarily will arise, so why make it a "thing"?


Because it is already a "thing" for Hilary's dog. That's why. At this point, there's nothing to do but try to overcome the conditioned response.


----------



## msnikki82 (Feb 10, 2012)

This is Elvis. He's a one year old border collie/blue heeler mix. He's absolutely awesome!


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hi, Elvis!!!!...handsome boy.....


----------



## cbramsey (Nov 13, 2011)

Guess Elvis has *NOT* left the building!!!! :wink:


----------

