# E-Collar to "Shape" Behaviors?



## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

I understand a good deal of people on this forum have differing opinions on different training methods and I know the e-collar can sometimes be a touchy subject for some people. So lets please keep it professional  This post is purely for educational purposes...

I've been researching methods concerning the e-collar for months now and have breifly talked to a few different trainers on the subject as best I can (some things are really hard to explain via internet and it's one of those tools you don't want to give an "idiot" the "how to" manual, and I totally understand that).

The reason I've been researching it is because I was viewing this tool as a last result for Linkin's recall. I've tried every other tool at my disposal and method I've been taught or come across to teach him a solid recall but every time the second that leash is unclipped he's off like a shot and there's no getting him back (unfortunately I don't live where there's a fenced yard and don't have any say in that department). Once agian, this thread is for educational purposes and I'm not seeking advice  Just giving a bit of history.

I converse with a fellow trainer via e-mail and have brought up this problem with Linkin. He mentioned how he's used e-collars for (as he calls it) "Leash Literate Dogs". These are dogs that are 100% awesome on leash but the second it's off they become door knobs (Linkin fits into this category, especially when it regards his recall). I told him I DO have an e-collar but don't use it because I'm too wary to. I didn't really know HOW to use it and wasn't comfortable with the idea of "shocking" my dog. He told me he uses it to "shape" behaviors rather than correct, although that he sees a place for it in both areas. He then sent me some articles to read. It didn't get the exact answer I was looking for regarding shaping, but I think I'm starting to understand how he views shaping.

Now, I wouldn't critisize his methods, I'm just looking for some understanding on the subject.

The way I see it; this shaping involves "stiming" the dog (no command given first). When the dog comes to you you praise it. If the dog doesn't come you tap the stim button and also "reel" the dog in because the dog is also on a long line attached to a regular collar. You keep doing this until the dog gets the "light bulb" and then you add in your command.

To me this doesn't make complete sense. I can understand (somewhat) the REASONING behind it, but to me, as a method to train, it just doesn't make sense. I'm open to different methods of training if it will work for certain dogs, but to me this would be the equivalent to putting a prong collar on my dog and repeatidly giving a correction and then praising when he comes to me out of fear, when I haven't given him any idea as to what he SHOULD have done first. I believe that if you're going to use corrections you should first give your command and give the dog a chance to actually respond to it then when the dog doesn't respond you give a correction (be it via a collar or just verbal) and then you show them the correct thing to do (ie: "reel" the dog in).

What I've understood of "shaping" is it's something you do when the dog is first learning a command. So if you want to teach the dog to come you use your lead to "reel" the dog in and show him what to do, so you're shaping the behavior and then you praise to teach him "yes, that's the thing to do". I don't understand for the life of me how giving a dog a correction (which, regardless of what anyone says, that's what the e-collar does!) when you haven't even asked anything of him first is considered as shaping.

So what are your thoughts? Regardless of whether or not you've used, would ever use, or even agree with using an e-collar, can this tool be used to "shape behaviors" or is it simply another tool that gives you more freedom (for me, it's easier to transition to off leash for my leash litterate dog) but is essentially a tool for giving corrections?

Just looking for a bit more insight on the subject, as I'm a newb to e-collars and want to understand them fully first.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DogGoneGood said:


> The way I see it; this shaping involves "stiming" the dog (no command given first). When the dog comes to you you praise it.


The "stim" in this case is dependent on when you actually stim. If you stimed while the dog was sniffing a tree, the stim would be a cue, no different than a verbal recall cue. If you stimed while the dog voluntarily recalled, it would be a secondary reinforcer. Your praise being the primary reinforcer. 



> If the dog doesn't come you tap the stim button and also "reel" the dog in because the dog is also on a long line attached to a regular collar. You keep doing this until the dog gets the "light bulb" and then you add in your command.


This is negative reinforcement. Your stim (an aversion) is repeated and ceased once the dog performs the desired behavior. 



> but to me this would be the equivalent to putting a prong collar on my dog and repeatidly giving a correction and then praising when he comes to me out of fear, when I haven't given him any idea as to what he SHOULD have done first.


In the negative reinforcement example, yes, it's exactly the same in theory. 



> I believe that if you're going to use corrections you should first give your command and give the dog a chance to actually respond to it then when the dog doesn't respond you give a correction (be it via a collar or just verbal) and then you show them the correct thing to do (ie: "reel" the dog in).


Negative reinforcement is not punishment. You can only get behavior from reinforcement. So you would use negative reinforcement to develop the behavior before you proof the behavior and use correction. 



> What I've understood of "shaping" is it's something you do when the dog is first learning a command. So if you want to teach the dog to come you use your lead to "reel" the dog in and show him what to do, so you're shaping the behavior and then you praise to teach him "yes, that's the thing to do".


If you have to reel in the dog...that's not shaping. Shaping involves voluntary behavior on the dog's part. For example, you'd shape a sit by waiting for the dog to sit, mark it, and reward it. Sometimes you have to break the behavior down into tiny, tiny increments until it's exactly what you want. So again, if you're shaping sit, you might mark the point where the dog's butt moves a centimeter towards the ground, but may or may not sit. The end result of shaping, however, would be a dog offering the behavior volutarily without any physical prompts. 



> I don't understand for the life of me how giving a dog a correction (which, regardless of what anyone says, that's what the e-collar does!) when you haven't even asked anything of him first is considered as shaping.


When it's not a correction and reinforcement. 



> So what are your thoughts? Regardless of whether or not you've used, would ever use, or even agree with using an e-collar, can this tool be used to "shape behaviors" or is it simply another tool that gives you more freedom (for me, it's easier to transition to off leash for my leash litterate dog) but is essentially a tool for giving corrections?


If the dog is in fact leash-wise, I'd want to spend a lot of time in a secured area practicing recall without a leash, before using an e-collar. Not everyone has the time, patience, or resources to do so, however.

ETA: I should have explained that the reinforcer in negative reinforcement is the aversive stimulus going away (minus, or negative),


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Hypothetical situation, trainer and dog are walking, dog is out there being a free spirit, trainer does not say anything and buzzes dog, many dogs will beat feet back to trainer. BUT this is a trainer who has the ability to read these dogs properly. That's the difficult part of collar work. To be on the safe side the Hypothetical trainer is in a completely fenced in area or a large indoor facility. This is going to stop spooked runaways etc. which occasionally will happen. This is not in anyway advising anybody to use an e-collar, as that is a personal training program.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

DogGoneGood said:


> I don't understand for the life of me how giving a dog a correction (which, regardless of what anyone says, that's what the e-collar does!) when you haven't even asked anything of him first is considered as shaping.


I can't help with that, as it is not the generally the accepted methodology. There is a school that supposedly uses the e-collar as a teaching/shaping tool, but I know nothing of the method--besides their students appearing extremely well trained. There is no book; you have to enroll in one of the franchise schools if you want to learn more.

As to the general use of the e-collar for recall (or anything else), it can be a wonderful tool. Contrary to internet histrionics, it is not inherently inhumane. The lowest setting on my collar is imperceptible to large majority of the people I've demonstrated it on. I can feel it, but most people cannot with the prongs touching the inside of the wrist. With lots of increments up the scale, it is not hard to find a working level that effects the desired response, but without overwhelming the dog. Modern collars--assuming a high quality unit; a collar is not something you want to cheap it on--can be used on even extremely sensitive dogs. The point is not to induce seizures and cause smoke to pour out from under the dog's coat.

Once a dog has been conditioned to the fact that "come" is not an advisory opinion, it shouldn't require much in the way of continued stimulation. It should be rare, in fact. Having a dead reliable recall, in the face of any distraction, and at considerable distances, can be a matter of a dog's life or death.

That's the "why". The "how" is not a matter for experimentation by novices.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

Curbside Prophet - You always make me feel like an idiot because I have to read your posts twice to understand what you're talking about LOL 

I found this article: http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/schutzhund/schutz.html which I think explains it the best out of any article I've read.

Is this basically like what you're talking about too?

Either the articles I read previously were wrong or I was the one who read them wrong because it was my understanding you "tap" the stim button (and I'm sure it said that) and then reel the dog in to teach it what to do. Once you've done that for a while (it said by the second session is usually when you introduce a command) and that you stim repeatidly and give command and then stop when the dog comes to you.

ETA - oh, you're correct on the "shaping" term as well, Curb. I was the one confused on that. I get all the different dog training deffinitions mixed up and confused at some times and tend to just make up my own so then other people think I'm wrong when we're actually talking about the same thing but calling it two different things. So, my bad 

I think the two articles are pretty much the same but different wording in a way. This second one (the one I posted) explains it pretty well, that you're teaching the dog to come ASAP and to do that you're teaching him to avoid the stim.

Ugh, okay my brain's hurting and I feel like I'm going around in circles on this and lost my train of thought... I should take a break and then come back to it. But the article I posted did make things clearer for me, Curbside; is this kind of what you were talking about?



Marsh Muppet said:


> I can't help with that, as it is not the generally the accepted methodology. There is a school that supposedly uses the e-collar as a teaching/shaping tool, but I know nothing of the method--besides their students appearing extremely well trained. There is no book; you have to enroll in one of the franchise schools if you want to learn more.
> 
> As to the general use of the e-collar for recall (or anything else), it can be a wonderful tool. Contrary to internet histrionics, it is not inherently inhumane. The lowest setting on my collar is imperceptible to large majority of the people I've demonstrated it on. I can feel it, but most people cannot with the prongs touching the inside of the wrist. With lots of increments up the scale, it is not hard to find a working level that effects the desired response, but without overwhelming the dog. Modern collars--assuming a high quality unit; a collar is not something you want to cheap it on--can be used on even extremely sensitive dogs. The point is not to induce seizures and cause smoke to pour out from under the dog's coat.
> 
> ...


Muppet - I think we posted at the same time 

Yeah, from what I've read quality of collar makes a huge difference as well. The one I got wasn't exactly cheap, but isn't the BEST either. If I had the money I would love to get a better one, but just don't have the money for it. It has 10 settings on the remote and I've tried them on myself but can't feel a thing until about 5, but it's my understand that that doesn't necessarily mean the dog can't feel anything below those points, right?

What's the name of this school? I'm wondering if it's the same place my trainer friend went to


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DogGoneGood said:


> Curbside Prophet - You always make me feel like an idiot because I have to read your posts twice to understand what you're talking about LOL


I like a 6 dollar burger at a 1 dollar price. Don't you? 



> I found this article: http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/schutzhund/schutz.html which I think explains it the best out of any article I've read.
> 
> Is this basically like what you're talking about too?


Mmmm ya, it's pretty much the same as you described, negative reinforcement. 

The article was a little confusing in that it assumed the dog understood the command, yet used the collar to teach the command. That's probably inherent since it's written as an introduction to the collar.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

DogGoneGood said:


> What's the name of this school? I'm wondering if it's the same place my trainer friend went to


I was referring to Fred Hassen's *Sit Means Sit* schools. All I know of his method is what I read in a piece written by Captain Haggerty (who was like the Jack LaLane of dog training in NYC). My comments are not a recommendation, nor are they a criticism of the system.

PS: by a "quality unit' I was referring more to reliability than the number of levels (though more is better). Cheap units have been known to stim dogs randomly or not at all.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

My understanding of the e-collar and recalls is that the intensity of the stim gets lowered as the dog gets closer to you....the quicker the dogs comes, the quicker the stim is reduced. It reminds me of the old recall method called Boogey Man. The dog is put on a long line and then scary things happen....by that tree, next to the shed....loud noises/firecrackers/flags popping up/people shouting. You'd scare the dog and 'teach' him that the only safe place is next to you.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> My understanding of the e-collar and recalls is that the intensity of the stim gets lowered as the dog gets closer to you....the quicker the dogs comes, the quicker the stim is reduced.


I'm sure you get a thousand twists on any technique, if you poll a thousand different trainers. The way I learned was to recall the dog (after previously training the recall) and stimming the dog all the way back. The stim ends when the dog gets back to you. The dog eventually has to return against resistance to stop the stim. This gets the dog driving back to you at flank speed.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

I know I keep saying I need to get off the comp because I'm too tired to think anymore, but I seem to be addicted...

Curbside - I think what they mean is when a dog KNOWS a command but is refusing to do it, then the e-collar is introduced. A dog can not respond to a command and know it at the same time, it just means that they aren't listening 100%. Linkin has a good enough understanding of "Come" to do it 90% of the time on a long line but the other 10% he waits for me to have to show him what to do because he's simply refusing to do it (something else is more interesting). Off leash his recall is about 1% effective because he's learned from experience that he can take off and do something really cool and exciting that he otherwise couldn't do if he came back to me. Instead it's just boring ol' me in the boring ol' yard. Which is why I decided to seek another method to teach him leaving is bad and coming back to me is good. I haven't simply decided to just amp up the negative either, but also amp up the positive (getting SUPER excited when he comes back even though I was taught to stay calm with him because he gets excited _too_ easily, and using a lot of play time as a reward).

I really wish I could have gotten Linkin when he was much younger. When I got him he was 8 months old and already had so many bad habits that it's made training him extremely difficult, although at the same time, I guess I'm thankful for that experience as I'm sure in the long run it'll make me a better trainer because I've learned a LOT with Linkin.



TooneyDogs said:


> My understanding of the e-collar and recalls is that the intensity of the stim gets lowered as the dog gets closer to you....the quicker the dogs comes, the quicker the stim is reduced. It reminds me of the old recall method called Boogey Man. The dog is put on a long line and then scary things happen....by that tree, next to the shed....loud noises/firecrackers/flags popping up/people shouting. You'd scare the dog and 'teach' him that the only safe place is next to you.


I don't think it's quite the same. This "Boogey Man" method could seriously scar a dog for life. If I used it I'd have a dog who was seriously sketched out about all sorts of situations where as I'd rather have a confident dog who hasn't been scared into listening to me. The stim on an e-collar shouldn't be something PAINFUL or scary but rather discomforting. If you're scaring your dog into returning to you the stim is WAY too high on the collar. At least, that's my understanding


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DogGoneGood said:


> Curbside - I think what they mean is when a dog KNOWS a command but is refusing to do it, then the e-collar is introduced.


No, what I think they mean is the dog knows "here" already (he was taught using some other method), and now we're going to associate "here" with the stim. The author says to "stim" the dog, then cue "here", stim again and repeat the stim until the dog trots his way back to you. That initial stim is to associate the stim with "here". 

That's no different than if I taught the dog a visual cue for sit without a verbal cue, and now wanted to add a verbal cue. Using negative reinforcement with a leash that process would be: "sit", visual cue, repeated leash jerks until the dog sat. 

But again, this is an introduction to the use of an e-collar, and as such, the author is not really describing how to proof behavior with it. They get into "corrections" when they start talking about using higher levels of stim.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> No, what I think they mean is the dog knows "here" already (he was taught using some other method), and now we're going to associate "here" with the stim. The author says to "stim" the dog, then cue "here", stim again and repeat the stim until the dog trots his way back to you. That initial stim is to associate the stim with "here".
> 
> That's no different than if I taught the dog a visual cue for sit without a verbal cue, and now wanted to add a verbal cue. Using negative reinforcement with a leash that process would be: "sit", visual cue, repeated leash jerks until the dog sat.
> 
> But again, this is an introduction to the use of an e-collar, and as such, the author is not really describing how to proof behavior with it. They get into "corrections" when they start talking about using higher levels of stim.


Hmmm... mayhaps I'm interpreting it differently because I wasn't reading the article as a "how to introduce an e-collar to your shutzhund dog" but rather as further information about using an e-collar - as that's what I'm looking for. To me the same basic principals can be used to proof a dog in a way like I need for mine; but more as a correction tool I suppose.

I find it a bit confusing; in fact _quite_ a bit confusing; because so many things I've read about using an e-collar for different methods and different purposes sound pretty much the same. How can a method be used for one thing and then changed juuust slightly and be called a method for something else?


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

im not going to get into methods of using it and such for training...becaues i have to leave for work in about 5min LOL. but i will say this: 

Great Dane named Molly. just turned 1yr old. came to daycare, totally crazy. knows no sit, down, stay, off, leave it, recall, etc. NOTHING! of course she is a pain in the butt the whole time she is there boarding. owners pick her up and we explain she needs some obedience training, let them know we offer classes etc. and why she needs the training. they say they ARE training her basic obedience WITH and e-collar.

now here is the problem with this dog using an e-collar for training. she is afraid of getting "shocked". she knows it comes after the beep. they ask her for a sit, if she doesnt sit, they beep...she then sits. she will do things with the collar on BUT as soon as it is off, she has no reason to do anything, because she will not be shocked. hence why it seems as though she doesnt know ANY commands when shes not wearing it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DGG

*Curbside Prophet - You always make me feel like an idiot because I have to read your posts twice to understand what you're talking about LOL *

You are very fortunate only having to read his stuff 2 times. Just keep one thought in mind using an e-collar is like anything else. You have heard on forum about how using a prong collar is fine for special dogs and for trainers that know how to use it properly. Trainers learn proper prong and e-collar etc etc etc by using it on dogs. All the books/articles/links are not going to help you. No matter what the problem is eventually you got to press the button to get the reaction, read the reaction, learn from the reaction. It's the moment of truth.

GDM 
I have no idea why anybody would use an e-collar on a dog that young. They need a new trainer.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The problem I have always had with E collar work is getting the dog to associate the simulation with the behavior desired. This is not to say the E Collar has no place, but that its use can backfire on you in very dramatic ways. For instance, if your dog is sniffing a marking tree and you say "come" and the dog keeps sniffing and you stim the dog, he will more often than not associate the stim with the TREE and not with the fact that he ignored the command. I am not sure that any of these articles adquately address this. They all assume the dog will associate the stimulation with not doing the 'right' thing. With repetition that may be true, but at first it may create another problem which may be very difficult to fix. 

Beyond this, if your dog is smart enough to be 'leash wise' he will very quickly become 'collar wise' and will learn to obey well with the collar or dummy collar in place but may become as recalcitrant as ever with the collar off.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> This is not to say the E Collar has no place, but that its use can backfire on you in very dramatic ways. For instance, if your dog is sniffing a marking tree and you say "come" and the dog keeps sniffing and you stim the dog, he will more often than not associate the stim with the TREE and not with the fact that he ignored the command. I am not sure that any of these articles adquately address this. They all assume the dog will associate the stimulation with not doing the 'right' thing.


That may be true if the dog is not properly conditioned to the collar in the first place. The process is necessary to teach the dog what the stim means, and how he can avoid it or shut it off. I don't see that anything is assumed. The articles are not intended to take the place of a program of instruction. They are merely an overview.



Elana55 said:


> Beyond this, if your dog is smart enough to be 'leash wise' he will very quickly become 'collar wise' and will learn to obey well with the collar or dummy collar in place but may become as recalcitrant as ever with the collar off.


Collar-wiseness can be avoided, to a large extent, by properly conditioning a dog to the unit. This starts with the dog wearing it for a month or more before it is ever energized. I've heard more experienced trainers than myself remark that "they all get collar-wise, eventually". This may be true (I haven't trained hundreds of dogs), but if you do it right, it shouldn't be a huge obstacle. If you randomly intersperse "Amish" style corrections, collar-wiseness should be largely irrelevant since the dog can't predict the _source_ of correction. If you play your cards right, the dog won't figure it out until after his responses are thoroughly trained (i.e., after the avoidance of correction ceases to be the primary motivation to correct responses to commands).


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Am I right in thinking that using an e-collar to shape a behaviour would be like shaping with a clicker, only in reverse?


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> Am I right in thinking that using an e-collar to shape a behaviour would be like shaping with a clicker, only in reverse?


I'll admit to not knowing everything, but I don't see how unless the collar has tone mode or a vibrating pager mode. The tone on my collar could easily substitute for a clicker, and can function at up to 1 mile under ideal conditions. The electric stimulation is always considered negative by the recognized e-collar trainers that I've read. I'll also admit that I haven't read everything. BTW, several people I know claim their dog's dislike the vibration more than the working level of stim.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

I've actually been putting the collar on him a lot with no intention of using it yet just to try and avoid him becoming collar-wise. Of course no garantees, but I think if I do it right he shouldn't figure it out, or like Marsh Muppet said, hopefully he won't figure it out until AFTER he's been trained enough for the recall to become automatic.

Wvasko - I know all the articles in the world won't give me the experience I need. I really wish there was a trainer close by who has experience with it but there actually is only one other trainer in this town and they do the treat and click thing, so I'm kind of assuming they don't have experience with an e-collar (although we know what "assuming" means...).

I just don't want to wander into it blind. If I can learn as much as I can first then I feel I'll be a little bit more prepared as to how it works, how important timing is, how to fit the collar, how to find out what level to use etc. etc. I feel I've pretty much learned all these things by now and just need to get up the guts to go out and actually try it.

I'm thinking I'll put a long lead on him with the collar as well for the first while. Last time I actually tried using the e-collar on him (this was last summer) he ran past the range and was gone within a minute. So this time I'm using the long leash for the first while and am going to move slowly in progression, only when I feel he's solid at one level will we move onto the next.

GreatDaneMom - so let me get this straight... the dog was being corrected with the e-collar even though it didn't have an understanding of the commands in the first place? How is the dog supposed to understand what "sit" is if they didn't TEACH it to him first? I'd suggest the training through you guys again!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> Am I right in thinking that using an e-collar to shape a behaviour would be like shaping with a clicker, only in reverse?


Yes. I believe you can say this. 

With a clicker you mark and reward the desired behavior. The click is associated with something positive (reward) when the desired behavior is exhibited. 

With the E collar you correct the undesired behavior by applying an aversive with the reward being the cessation of the correcting aversive for the desired behavior. When using a tone or vibration, the tone or vibration is warning that an aversive correction is coming if the undesired behavior does not cease and be replaced with the desired behavior. 

Both methods break the desired behavior down into increments with increasing requirements as the desired behavior becomes more ingrained in response to a cue such as a verbal "come here."


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DGG said:


> I know my dogs enjoy my company, if they didn't they wouldn't follow me from room to room, ask for cuddles, or bring me their toys.


 Enjoying your company is different than assuming a dog is motivated to behave because you’re his human. If your dog follows you because he’s associated you with attention, cuddles, and play, is the dog motivated by something in you, or the opportunities you provide for attention, cuddles, and play? I assure you that if you didn’t provide these opportunities you might be saying your dog is not motivated by you. You might even say your dog hates you. 
I’m not suggesting you devalue your relationship in any way with your dog, but understand that what you’ve just stated is that your dog is motivated by x, y, z, and none of them are characteristics of you. The fact that you acknowledge these things are reinforcers, is good. However, attention, cuddles, and play do not neatly fall under what we know really motivates behavior, the 4 F’s - Fighting, Fleeing, Feeding, and Reproduction. Food does. 


> These things are rewards I can dish out at ANY time no matter where I am, unlike food.


 Why unlike food? Those that use food as reinforcers use them no differently than you do your reinforcers. As I stated previously, I don’t find 3 pieces of kibble in my pocket intrusive on what I do in training. Oh, I get it…I’ve left home without pants…silly me. I’m still waiting for that day when streaking with my dog is the norm. However, I’ve taught dogs preferable behaviors by allowing them to lick the salt off my hand as a reinforcer. Oh dear, probably not a good idea to promote dog-human cannibalism. Forget I said all that. But… If the dog knows the behavior, is food needed? Are any reinforcers needed? IME, no. I’ll explain in the next statement.


> It wasn't until I started trying to phase out treats with Coal that he suddenly started ignoring me because he learned this reward was no longer always there so really, what's in it for him?


 This is not an example of food being less preferential. In fact, it’s probably more of an example of food getting what we ultimately want in training. You found the Holy Grail of behavior, the mere act of doing the behavior is self reinforcing. I would contend that you’ll get to this point quicker using food, from the onset, than without. A clicker trainer only uses food to teach a behavior initially, they’ll then exchange the reinforcer for the same life rewards you use. However, the acquisition of the cue is much faster using food (a four F motivator)…I don’t know that this can be debated. Proof in point – the dog who responds to a cues at home (where food is plentiful), but not outside the home where food is scarce (or running up a tree). Still more…


> This is exactly my point though; other things can be used as reinforcers so why not just use them from the start?


 Because dog owners and trainers want behaviors NOW. Feeding is a primary motivation for dogs, and food allows us to tap into this motivation to get behavior NOW.


> Why spend more time phasing out a previous reward that was actually more rewarding to the dog in the first place than your new reward.


 Because the dog doesn’t speak our language, and some even find physical contact or verbal praise threatening. If you’ve met a dog who was not motivated by food…he likely doesn’t have a blood pulse. 


> If I were trained this way I'd be holding out for the good stuff once it was taken away...


 Do you work for a paycheck? Do you only go to work on payday? If not, why? Before you answer think also of how your work behavior would change if you never received a paycheck. 


> However if my reward that I always knew I enjoyed was never taken away, I wouldn't have a problem.


 Back to our inside dog (brilliant)-outside dog (stubborn) problem. If the human is always available, even outside, why then does this problem exist? You can’t conclude an answer without ending at a four-F motivation reinforcing the behavior. 


> How do you know if I inadvertently reinforced the dancing behavior? Were you watching me train my dog?


 Yes. I was watching you.  I’ll answer this question two ways. One very obvious way, and one even more obvious way for you to dwell on. You, as your dog’s owner, are responsible for your dog’s behavior. Do you disagree? If not, you are responsible for your dog’s dancing behavior. A simple deduction. Now an even more obvious one and I’ll use the definition of reinforcement to get there.


> Reinforcement: Reinforcement is defined as a consequence that follows an operant response that increase (or attempts to increase) the likelihood of that response occurring in the future.


 If you at any time fed or praised your dog for a sit that included dancing, you increase the likelihood of that response occurring in the future. 
Now I gave you the benefit of the doubt by calling it inadvertent, since I trust you wanted a sit that did not include dancing. 


> So yeah, I expect my dogs to be reliable, and so why shouldn't they expect me to be reliable in the praise I give them?


 Then why are you thinking of using a shock collar?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I love CP's answers as I walwyas learn something. I am glad Elsa is such a good professor! 

The one thing that stands out to me in all of this discussion is that somewhere along the way the dog has learned two things. The first thing he learned is how SELF REWARDING (and therefore self reinforcing) running off is. The second thing he learned is that when the leash is unsnapped, he can run off, which further reinforces the running off which he finds self rewarding in the first place. 

I have found it VERY difficult, even using corrections, to EXTINGUISH a heavily reinforced behavior, especially one that was heavily intermittently self rewarded and self reinforced! 

This dog learned to run off at some point and in doing so he was heavily rewarded. Maybe it was food he found, or chasing food, or scenting and chasing food, or even found a female in heat or even got into a dog scuffle and won and found that just the most fun on earth. 

I have talked to people who have had dogs do this who have resorted to E collars with very little positive results. Now, I will qualify that statement by also stating that I have NO IDEA the level of skill these people have had with training dogs with e collars or any other method. 

I think that an e collar is often (not always) a last resort born of frustration and it must be highly frustrating (probably as much quantity of frustratin as the dog has quantity of pleasure) to have a dog decide to disobey the come here command when off leash. 

I think also, that regardless of the method used, the essential element in training this dog that is missing is an enclosed area out side. 

DGG, I must ask if there is a horse arena, a gym, anyplace with a good fence, where you can go to train.. even if you have to pay some $$? If you can find a place I would suggest, at the risk of being derided, that you consider the Control Unleashed protocol introduced by Leslie McDevitt. 

If you cannot get to such an enclosed place, maybe get her book and give her protocal a try.. and if you can get to one of the week long control unleashed seminars, try it with this dog. 

Just some thoughts and ideas which you may or may not investigate at your discretion.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Oh gosh CP, I love that I always find your posts _both_ rewarding and mentally exhausting 

I get what you're saying about Coal's dancing. You are probably right.
Okay, so scenario time (because I love them so much!):

I'm training Coal via treats and no clicker (as I didn't start the clicker training until AFTER the dancing started). Coal starts guessing a down, a wave, back up, roll over etc. when what I asked for is a Sit.

Previously he's never done this before. Why is it then, all of a sudden he's done it?

Let's just say once he's offered one or more other commands before getting the sit right I praise for the sit and give him his food reward. Thus he's learned if I dance around and preform all these things then I'll get the treat, and therefore I've accidently taught him to do it.

Again I ask; why did he do it in the first place, before the reward was given after such a behavior was displayed?


Could it possibly be because he wasn't focusing on the command given but rather guessing because he was too focused on the food? Wouldn't this then be a dog who's _too_ motviated by food?


No, I don't typically leave house without my pants, but you have to keep in mind that I am not a man  Occasionally I wear things called skirts or MAYBE even a dress that don't have pockets. This is pretty rare, but there's other things I wear that don't actually have pockets (and yes, pants ARE on that list!). So no, it's isn't as convienent as you make it out to be. Not to mention I just find it really gross to have food in my pocket. I hate putting my hand in my pocket to get crumbs under my nails. I hate the fact I always smell like dog food when there's kibble or treats in my pocket. I hate the fact that I have to remember to actually put those treats in my pocket before heading out, as I have a really horrible memory.

As I said in the other treat related thread - I don't NEVER use treats. They're just not what I choose to use as a main reward. I don't think it's a big deal.

If I meet a dog who absolutly won't work for praise, I'll use treats. Does that satisfy you?

Oh, and stop watching me! I only have room for one stalker right now!

Elana55 - The closest enclosure is the fenced in basketball (tenis? Both?) court at Sowchea School which is ah uhhh... about 15-20 minute walk away I'd say. It's winter and we have nearly 5 feet of snow. That enclosure is completely snowed in. I do use it in the summer time for training though. Regardless, I'd like my dog to learn to be able to play and stick around at HOME, hense why I'd rather train at home... even though I don't have a fence... which sucks a lot. Other than that fenced in spot at the school, I honestly can't think of anywhere else that's enclosed that I could train at.

I'll look into the Control Unleashed thing you metioned, though right now have no idea what it is.


How about I meet everyone halfway and try a combination of sporadic treating (as I just can't bring myself to use it as a main reward source) and the e-collar? Would that be satisfactory?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DogGoneGood said:


> Oh gosh CP, I love that I always find your posts _both_ rewarding and mentally exhausting


I don't think I would have as many posts as I do if I didn't find this place rewarding. 



> I'm training Coal via treats and no clicker (as I didn't start the clicker training until AFTER the dancing started). Coal starts guessing a down, a wave, back up, roll over etc. when what I asked for is a Sit.
> 
> Previously he's never done this before. Why is it then, all of a sudden he's done it?


Silly trainers...always wanting to know why.  I can guess with the best of them, but let me ask you a question in return...would in knowing change your approach any differently? 



> Let's just say once he's offered one or more other commands before getting the sit right I praise for the sit and give him his food reward. Thus he's learned if I dance around and preform all these things then I'll get the treat, and therefore I've accidently taught him to do it.
> 
> Again I ask; why did he do it in the first place, before the reward was given after such a behavior was displayed?


How about I answer this with a game: http://nobelprize.org/educational_games/medicine/pavlov/pavlov.html



> Could it possibly be because he wasn't focusing on the command given but rather guessing because he was too focused on the food? Wouldn't this then be a dog who's _too_ motviated by food?


What I know of dogs is that they eat with their teeth. If he was too focused on the food he'd eat it right out of your hand. 

He's guessing known behaviors because he knows the pattern, he knows they eventually lead him to food. When mom promises food, I get food by doing x, y, and z. This is classical conditioning at work, otherwise known as Pavlovian conditioning. A good trainer does not promise food. A good trainer will eventually generalize the behavior when food is not obviously available. 

Another example of classical condition you might experience. You do not announce you're going for a walk, but you pull out your dog's e-collar. If your dog has associated the collar with walks, he may act excitedly when you show him the collar. The ABC's...e-collar > excitable behavior > walks outside. Don't confuse this with your dog preferring the aversion of an e-collar, and justifying it's use because of your dog's excitable behavior. Your dog is simply conditioned to what the collar (Pavlov's bell) represents (walking outside). 



> No, I don't typically leave house without my pants, but you have to keep in mind that I am not a man  Occasionally I wear things called skirts or MAYBE even a dress that don't have pockets.


I've found my man-purse to be more cumbersome to carry than treats.  



> If I meet a dog who absolutly won't work for praise, I'll use treats. Does that satisfy you?


Did the dog end up being well mannered? If not, no, I am not satisfied.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Oh gosh, if I carried treats in my purse it would take me an hour to dig them out! My purse is big enough to hold my sketch book it, along with that is almost my entire house in it!


The link you sent won't work  my internet sucks these days... but I'm assuming it has to do with pavlov's dog, and I've heard that story 

Yes, I do always want to know the why's. Not just for training, but everything in life. I was one of those kids who always asked a question and then after recieving the answer asked "but why?" until my parents exclaimed "BECAUSE I SAID SO!"

I'm also curious, not just for my own sake, but others who may be new to training and are attempting to train their dog via treats and getting the same dancing result. For the sake of correcting the training and thus correcting the behavior 

So if I were to train Coal with treats, and he JUST started offering behaviors, would this mean I should stop training for a couple of minutes and then try again? Only rewarding when he gives the desired behavior the first time? I'm assuming your logic is also to reward treats sporadically rather than consistantly, right?

It IS possible for Coal to be focused on the treat, without eating it out of my hand. He's been taught (through corrections) not to jump up and steal food out of my hands. So I would assume it's possible for him to be so fixated on the treat that he's not fully paying attention, but not jump up and take it because in the past he's been corrected for doing so.

I'll let you know if the dog I encounter who is only food motivated, in the end, is a well mannered dog


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## lizalots (Aug 29, 2008)

Wow, this thread has been mentally exhausting!! Whew!

I am having the same problem with my pooches. While Sierra has a wonderful off leash recall, Spike has been somewhat of a challenge. He has beautiful leash manners - almost too perfect to be the same dog! His previous owner must have worked long and hard on this. I've also introduced hand commands while on leash - I used them for Sierra as well as verbal. Again, he has picked it up so well.

When off leash, his recall is probably about 50%. He knows that 'here' means come back. He knows that there is a good reward for it as well. My problem comes when there are other distractions for him. He would much rather chase and play with another dog than listen to me. I've been working, working, working on this, but it isn't getting much better. 

While I've been considering using the e-collar, I've been very interested on how to correctly train a dog with one. 

I've considered going into basic obedience, but the problem is that he already knows the basic commands. I mean, beautiful leash work. He outshines Sierra, and I've worked so much with her that I can predict her every body movement. It's just that damned recall. I've been keeping my eyes open for a good secondary obedience class. 

Oh my, my... dogs. Silly dogs.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DogGoneGood said:


> The link you sent won't work  my internet sucks these days... but I'm assuming it has to do with pavlov's dog, and I've heard that story


Bummer. Maybe this link will work for you: http://nobelprize.org/educational_games/medicine/pavlov/



> So if I were to train Coal with treats, and he JUST started offering behaviors, would this mean I should stop training for a couple of minutes and then try again? Only rewarding when he gives the desired behavior the first time? I'm assuming your logic is also to reward treats sporadically rather than consistantly, right?


When it comes to intervals of reinforcement and training new behaviors, I don't concern myself with intervals. We humans as imperfect as we are, are already variable reinforcement vending machines. I concern myself with my criteria. If I've exceeded that criteria and the dog does fail to complete my criteria, no, I do not waste precious training time by postponing training. Nor do I want the dog to dwell on why. I would rather start over again with a lower criteria. 



> It IS possible for Coal to be focused on the treat, without eating it out of my hand. He's been taught (through corrections) not to jump up and steal food out of my hands. So I would assume it's possible for him to be so fixated on the treat that he's not fully paying attention, but not jump up and take it because in the past he's been corrected for doing so.


I'll assume you don't want the dog to focus on the treat but on you. Take a treat and hold it out to your side. What does your dog do? If he fixates on the treat keep holding it out until he glances at your eyes. Mark the glance with "yes", and feed him a treat you're holding in your other hand. Keep doing this over and over, incrementally waiting for longer and longer eye contact, and tell us your results. What is Coal fixated on now?


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

lizalots - I would suggest looking for a trainer who also offers one on one training rather than group obedience. You may have to ask, as not all trainers advertise their one on one option as much as the group training  That might solve your delima of the classes offering more of the stuff he already has, and the trainer can tailor the schedual based on what you want from your dog.



Curbside Prophet said:


> I'll assume you don't want the dog to focus on the treat but on you. Take a treat and hold it out to your side. What does your dog do? If he fixates on the treat keep holding it out until he glances at your eyes. Mark the glance with "yes", and feed him a treat you're holding in your other hand. Keep doing this over and over, incrementally waiting for longer and longer eye contact, and tell us your results. What is Coal fixated on now?


That's the "watch me". I taught him that when I was teaching him better control on the agility course. I don't know if that proves anything though... he's really only focusing on me because he's learned he gets his food reward if he does. It doesn't exactly mean he loves treats any less... Although I guess it does prove he's capable of focusing on me rather than soley on the treat. If that's the point you meant; well then I just have one thing left to say to you my good sir...

*Touché.*​

P.S.
I got the game working now! It's cute... I feel like I've seen it before too.


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## lizalots (Aug 29, 2008)

Talking about recall..

So say, your dog is recalling excellent for his reward. And then one time he stops about 20 feet in front of you and won't move another inch towards you. What is the proper way to handle that? Walking to get him seems like it defeats the purpose. Calling him to you with is not working.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

lizalots said:


> So say, your dog is recalling excellent for his reward. And then one time he stops about 20 feet in front of you and won't move another inch towards you. What is the proper way to handle that? Walking to get him seems like it defeats the purpose. Calling him to you with is not working.


Assuming the dog and I are in a safe enclosure, and he's not threatened in any way from ceasing his recall, I'm running like a clown in the opposite direction from him.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

to clear up some things, the dog was taught how to sit before, but instead of continuing with treats, they turned to the e-collar... doG only knows why! and they dont have a trainer, they are the trainer....ugh.... but we keep trying to push our classes on such on hem so maybe they will actually do it. maybe i can give them a free doggie bootcamp so i can work with her to perfect her and they can stop using the e-collar.


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## katthevamp (Aug 7, 2007)

As for the recall questions, wouldn't teaching the dog that if you come back to me, you can do these things after help? That way, the dog realized comeing back to you doesn't mean play-time is over? Of course, you can't always let them do what they want.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Yes, recall can be rewarded with a release to let the dog go back and play. It can be risky if you're only just proofing the behaviour, but when it works it pays off well.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

katthevamp said:


> As for the recall questions, wouldn't teaching the dog that if you come back to me, you can do these things after help? That way, the dog realized comeing back to you doesn't mean play-time is over?


http://life.familyeducation.com/dogs/pet-training/47296.html


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have been thinking about his thread and the bottom line is that DGG has a dog that is leash wise and finds running off and not coming when called more rewarding than coming. To that end, DGG is proposing to use and E Collar and is questioning its use to shape behavior. 

Regardless, I think this recall problem can be solved w/o an e collar. It may need to wait until spring to get completely sorted out (I hate winter.. LOL). 

IF DGG would be willing to work some with treats and food, that would help. Don't want crumbled bits of Dog treats of hotdog or cooked chicken in your purse or pockets? OK. Go to the hardware store and get a nail pouch. Wear that over whatever outfit and put the treats in that _UNTILL YOU GET THIS BEHAVIOR TRAINED_. After you have the dog reliable, occaisionally reinforce with treats to keep him sharp. 

I would first change everything you do. Start in the house. Train the recall completely from scratch and use a NEW WORD. Totally abandon the word he doesn't respond to off leash. Start over. Do not use a leash or this word with the leash on the dog EVER. Try a clicker or use the word YES! spoken enthusiatically to mark behavior. PRIME THE DOG. Say YES 10 times and immediately give the dog a treat. I would ONLY work on recall. ONLY. 

Let the dog wander around the room you are in. When the dog looks at you, say, YES and offer a treat. He has to come to you to collect his treat (that is what you want anyway). Send the dog away and the minute he looks at you say, YES and treat. Never say YES and NOT treat. Work in 5 minute increments.. intersperse the work with 5 minutes of play.. like tug or something else the dog likes. 

Work for no more than 30 minutes total. 

When the dog starts looking at you and coming to you reliably, add your NEW recall cue. When the dog starts to respond to this cue, spend no less than 30 seconds praising the dog, and feeding him several small treats EVERY time he responds to the recall word. 

I would do this EVERY day indoors until the weather breaks. Take him out for walks on his leash and NEVER use your "new" recall word with him outside on the leash. Just over train the devil out of this new recall word. ALWAYS give him 30 seconds of praise when he responds to the word. Eventually give him treats less frequently.. not EVERY time he comes.. start doing it every other time.. then do it every third time.. every 4th time.. two together.. every fifth time etc. Break up the pattern. He never knows if he will get treats or just praise but when you do give treats make them good and give him several.. not all at once.. I give about 5 treats over the 30 seconds to a minute during the praise phase. Do not phase the treats out completely thru the winter. Keep up this imtermittent schedule. 

It is VERY important to never have a leash on when you do this work. NEVER. 

When the weather breaks, go to the tennis court (a 20 minute walk is not so bad) and repeat the training and start by using treats every time with him off leash in the tennis court. Again, NO LEASH. Over train to the point where no matter what is going on outside the tennis court, the dog comes to you. Over train. Over train. Over train. Go to intermittent rewards. Use different treats (variety is the spice of life). Use good stuff. Steak, chicken, cut up hot dogs and your nail pouch. When you get to intermittent rewards at the tennise court, sometimes have the nail pouch off and no treats. Other times have it off and have treats in your hand. You don't want him to always associate the nail pouch with the recall cue. 

When you have over trained in the tennis court, it is time to go back to your back yard and give it a try. Have the best treats you can have. Do not have him on a leash. Give your recall cue and see what happens. Stay calm, do not change the tone, pitchor inflection of your voice and act like you absolutely EXPECT him to respond to the recall cue. 

That is what I would try before resorting to an e collar. Yes, it is a lot of work but ultimately I believe that work will pay off with a dog that will come to you when he is called and come thru a wall of fire. I bet you will learn a lot (which is interesting and will answer many of your why questions). If it does not work, e collars aren't going anywhere. 

Just My Idea. 

And check out Control Unleashed as I suggested. More answers to your "why" questions.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Elana55 - I really appreciate you taking the time to write that all up, you're obviously a caring person. I've tried pretty much what you've explained, except for less treats (just the ocasional "bonus" treats). Linkin listens great in the house and on the leash. He does everything I ask of him with great enthusiasm. It's just the moment that leash is off.

I will admit, working him off leash in a large enclosure would help a lot, as he's about 50% reliable there (like at the fenced in place at Sowchea).

I've been working on his recall for a year now (actually, over a year now...). In the house, on the long line, with a tab, with treats, without treats, with toys, without toys. 

He will work with the same enthusiasm for any reward (treats, toys, praise etc.). The only thing I've found that tends to hinder him a bit is the toys. It has to be a short, quiet game of tug etc. or else he gets SO wound up he starts doing "zoomies" and then it's hard to get him back in a training frame of mind.

I was taught at school to keep my praise short and simple with him because he's so easy to get too excited, but have learned over the year I can get more excited than what my teachers taught me, but knowing how far is too far.

I would like to gradually build it up so no matter how excited he is he'll still listen, and we're slowly working on that for all of his commands (I've been teaching him "settle" which is his command to settle down, and he's doing pretty good with it).

I've been thinking, and my sister has a back yard that gets used quite a bit (they have a dog, actually he's in my siggy), so it's not as snowed in as the fenced area at Sowchea. So I'm thinking of asking her to let me train there, it's just not quite as convenient because it means getting someone to drive us there on a daily basis (I only have my learners... that's another long story).

I haven't looked into the Control Unleashed, but I promise I will. 

While I'm still pretty set on using the e-collar, I am willing to try anything so I am considering other routes (no matter how much I think it won't work ). I hate bringing Coal outside and playing with him while Linkin sits in the house and cries, missing out on all the fun. It breaks my heart but the only way he can come out and play too is if he's on the long line, and it's just not the same. I do bring him out a lot on it, but it would be so much better if he could just enjoy the freedom in the yard, as we have five acres and he's never even seen it all!


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I had a dog that would bark nonstop at any person coming in the house, when the person moves, any time they spoke, etc. I tried everything to stop it. I finally bought a "spray" collar with remote. There is a "good" tone to do when they are being good/stopping barking/get treat, and a bad tone that preceedes the spray button being pushed. The spray smells like Lemon Pledge. I only had to spray twice, and now the tone by itself stops him immediately. He'll also quit whatever he is doing and come to me if he hears the "bad" tone.

I couldn't be happier with it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

If your dog is only responding 50% of the time in an enclosed area, he needs more training until he is 100%. 

Try changing the cue and never using a leash EVER with that cue. 

Not having an enclosed area to work is really holding you back on this particular dog. 

I like a whistle as a cue, tho my dog responds to several recalls. She has a special word for a really reliable recall, a word for every day recall, a word for 'you need to get your nose out of that anc catch up with me' a couple of hand signals and a whistle. The RRR word she would literally go thru fire to get to me. 

A dog can get to the point where he associates a behavior he finds desirable (self rewarding) with a cue that he has learned to ignore. This is why for changing the cue. 

You truly do need to work on focus.. there is another source which might help you a lot.. Brenda Aloff "Get Connected with Your Dog" that is very good. Leslie McDevitt has a "Look at THAT" procedure that would probably really help with this dog. There is also a rev up and cool down stickie here on the forum that might be of benefit. More is happening here I think than a leash wise dog.. 

Meanwhile, if you are set on using the collar, what is holding you back? If it doesn't work, you can stop using it, right?


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Well, I ordered that Control Unleashed today, but it won't be until Monday that I can send out a money order and then a while after that before it gets here. The shipping is almost twice as much as the thing itself 

I just like to check out all my options, and plus wanted to fully understand the e-collars abilities. I have tried it on Linkin the past couple days and have seen some improvement, although I've got him on a long line as well, and like you said, it probably would be best to do this training completely without the leash. So I really don't know if it's going to make a huge difference once the leash is off or not, but so far he's responding very well (better than he usually does even with the just the long leash and no e-collar).

No matter what method I choose and what works for Linkin, any additional information is always great. It's why I've ordered Control Unleashed; even if it's not the solution for Linkin, it doesn't hurt me to be armed with another choice in case I come across a dog that it will work for.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DGG

*Meanwhile, if you are set on using the collar, what is holding you back? If it doesn't work, you can stop using it, right?*

I have got to agree with elana on this one and I make it a point not to give advice on use of an aversive. You are a dog trainer. PM me if you need anything.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

wvasko said:


> DGG
> 
> *Meanwhile, if you are set on using the collar, what is holding you back? If it doesn't work, you can stop using it, right?*
> 
> I have got to agree with elana on this one and I make it a point not to give advice on use of an aversive. You are a dog trainer. PM me if you need anything.


I just wanted to understand it's abilities, that's all.

Thanks Wvasko, I will send you a message probably within this week to give you a bit of an update, as I have started using it.

I just like learning new things about dogs, anything about dogs. So if I seem like I ask a lot of questions even if my mind is set on something, that's the only reason for it. I'm just curious and love learning. No harm in that I don't think


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

DGG,

I know what you are going through! I also have a dog that has not caught on to recall. I have read "control unleashed" and it was very helpful. I was also recommended "when pigs fly", and I just finished that one. Both books have great ideas to use with dogs that have a difficult time focusing.

However, like you, we have also purchased an e-collar. Libby has been wearing hers around the house for about a month; we haven't used it yet. 

We are going to take some more time and work on her recall using some of the techniques outlined in both books, and see how it goes from there.


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## reafe (Jan 12, 2009)

I couldn't read the entire replys but for the person that posted this...I too have a dog that I got at the pound and she came with so much issues it blows my mind. Really hard to train. Regardless of method, this is more of time taking its course than teaching method. 

I use an e-collar. The stim is suppose to be like a check. 

So take a leash, you check, the dog knows that stress on his neck came from you.

You take NO! He knows it came from you.

So with the e-collar, the dog has to know that it came from you.

You need a good collar with many levels to reach the correct level. Don't get the one from Walmart that has 5 levels. 

So to condition the dog that the stim came from you you can follow this method. Ignore the "that's so harsh" stuff. So do your heel into a sit. Do it a little harder than normal. You'll be the judge. Just a little. 

Then you transition to a check that's enough to correct his behavior. This check is a normal check that you normally do. The setting of the e-collar should match this intesity. 

Then when you do a check, you do it softer than your normal and you hit stim on your e-collar. 

Then over the course of training him, you can mix the regular check and e-check. 

Then now, he knows the e-collar correction came from you. If not, you dog will freeze up and go crazy. But if you follow this method, he'll know it came from you. 

But if you are going to use it for off leash, you have to practice on a long line first and introduce the e-collar as described above, then do it off leash. Or else he'll think that stim came from an unknown source. 

Point of the post, e-collar is a check from you, it's an extended leash. Thus, go through the process relating the leash and e-collar as one. In some teachings don't, they just stim till the dog does it and turn it off. Escape training. Real funky.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks for all replies and help.

I'm looking into options and am going to get Control Unleashed.

I won't be on for a few days because the power went out on the mountian so I have to use dial up for a while, and I REEEEALLY hate dial up.

So I just thought I'd come on and thank everyone for the pleantiful information, it's really helpful, and I'll update you in a few days.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

> But if you are going to use it for off leash, you have to practice on a long line first and introduce the e-collar as described above, then do it off leash. Or else he'll think that stim came from an unknown source.
> 
> Point of the post, e-collar is a check from you, it's an extended leash. Thus, go through the process relating the leash and e-collar as one. In some teachings don't, they just stim till the dog does it and turn it off. Escape training. Real funky.


I have read many articles, watched many videos, and talked to many people about e-collar training, and this is the method that I am most comfortable with. If we do resort to the e-collar, we will be using this method.

And ditto on the quality comment - I spent almost $300 for a dogtra 260. 100+ levels of stim, completely waterproof, 1/2 mile range, guaranteed for life, lithium ion battery.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

reafe said:


> So with the e-collar, the dog has to know that it came from you.
> 
> Then now, he knows the e-collar correction came from you. If not, you dog will freeze up and go crazy. But if you follow this method, he'll know it came from you.
> 
> But if you are going to use it for off leash, you have to practice on a long line first and introduce the e-collar as described above, then do it off leash. Or else he'll think that stim came from an unknown source.


I don't necessarily agree with this. 

My experience with the e-collar over the past week has been nothing short of amazing. My dog, like many others, is great on leash, "ok" off leash, but when another dog or squirrel or sometimes an interesting person goes by, she would bolt, and she was getting worse not better.

I clipped on the new e-collar..took her for the usual walk, she saw a distraction, went to bolt, I said "No!", she of course ignored me and I hit her with a stim. She yelped, stopped, looked at me, I then said "over here!", she hesitated, I stim'd, she yelped and came right to me. 

I have had to use the e-collar maybe a dozen times and adusted the setting a few times before I ended up at 7, and now I have a dog that walks with me in an invisible circle no more than maybe 15 feet radius, and if I want her back to me I call her by name, if I want her to change direction I say "this way", and if I want her to stop I say "wait". She does not attempt to chase a distraction unless I say "ok".

She had a "good" general idea of these commands before the e-collar, and like I said now she is perfect..well, almost, I had to zap her on our walk earlier tonite when she started wandering away and decided to try to ignore me. That was the first time in the last 2 days and I only have been using it a week.

She walks right back to the house with me and waits while I open the garage door. Before this she would have bolted while the garage was opening. I reward her with a treat about 30% of the time when she listens to me. The combination of positive reinforcement (treat) and the avoidance of the negative stimulation is incredibly powerful to a dog, and works well if they know what you want. 

But in deference to the above poster who I quoted, I do not believe the dog need to know the stim "came from you". It just needs to know the command came from you and if it doesn't follow it something bad is going to happen. 

This "collarwise" stuff...seems to be an unecessary worry. I used the ecollar from the moment I put it on her, I plan to leave it on her until I am finished with it, say in a month from now. Sure if it was on and off all the time she might make the connection but if you just leave it there and eventually just stop using it the dog is just going to forget about it altogether.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

> I hit her with a stim. She yelped


This sounds...so wrong. The whole idea of an ELECTRIC SHOCK COLLAR sounds wrong. Say the words out loud...electric...shock...collar. You are electrically...shocking an animal that you care for, and love. You are causing pain to something you care about. 

I just can't understand it. It doesn't seem right. There are hundreds of other training methods out there, I don't see why people choose this method.

If this painful method of training was never invented, then you would have to find a better and more humane way to teach something, rather then resorting to shocking something.

Someone enlighten me as to why people will inflict pain onto a dog. Is it because it is an animal? Is it because it is not a person?

Would you change your mind if the dog all of a sudden spoke up and said, "OUCH that hurt, please stop doing that!"

Would that make it harder to..."stim" them?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

They should call it by the right name.....100 levels of pain. Like all electronic devices they just put fancy new names (stimulation) to it.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Pepper said:


> This sounds...so wrong. The whole idea of an ELECTRIC SHOCK COLLAR sounds wrong. Say the words out loud...electric...shock...collar. You are electrically...shocking an animal that you care for, and love. You are causing pain to something you care about.
> 
> I just can't understand it. It doesn't seem right. There are hundreds of other training methods out there, I don't see why people choose this method.
> 
> ...


If the ecollar would make my kids do their homework I would use it on them too. The idea is, it's a loving relationship but never forget who's in charge.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

TooneyDogs said:


> They should call it by the right name.....100 levels of pain. Like all electronic devices they just put fancy new names (stimulation) to it.


I'll have to ask you then, if you had a dog that you could never reliably trust off leash, and this is the only way you could give it freedom during hikes, trips, and so on. Would it still be so wrong?

Because that is actually the dilemma I am in. Kobe, my Husky/Malamute mix, currently has perfect recall on a 50' lead. He has perfect recall in a unfenced environment with no distractions (I posted pictures of his first and last off leash hike a while back.)

I've worked on him with his recall since March. Kobe is the dog that, during summer, I lost lost sight of for five minutes and he was found four hours later running 14 miles down a highway. He would not do that now with all the training I've done, but it's an idea of his capability.

His weaknesses are wildlife and other dogs or people. I can recall him off dogs and people a fair amount of times, but not always. Since his recall is not perfect, that leaves me two choices: I can explore alternatives from Positive training, in this case, the e-collar. Or I can keep him on leash, never to be off leash ever.

I can, and have been doing, the latter. The e-collar introduces a possibility of allowing him the freedom I know he would love to have. The only benefit a e-collar has for me is to be able to see him free. For him, it means the world, literally.

For all I know, the e-collar may fail me and I would not be able to use it. I don't WANT to harm him, and the emotional turmoil I've had in the last month leading up to this decision has not been pleasant for me. I adore Kobe. I call him Buddha for a reason, he is such a lovely dog. He means the world to me, and the idea of hurting him makes me sick to the stomach.

But the other side of me is telling me, that ideally properly done, it may be a temporary thing I only need to use short term. Once it's reinforced strong enough, I may have ten years of never having to use it. I cannot deny that possibility to myself as well. Am I to deny Kobe this possibility just because I cannot sit down with him, pat him on the head and tell him "Kobe, you can be free, I won't have to do this if you just come back!"

I cannot with good conscience ignore that either. So I'm at a loss, I don't know whether I am doing what is ultimately right, or if I am looking for an excuse. Some days I feel I'm doing what's right by my dog, other days I feel like I'm just hurting him.

I have no intent of using a e-collar on him for anything else. Teaching heel? Sit? Down? All these so minor things. That's not worth using a e-collar on. I'd be just fine with a dog that would not sit on command for whatever reason, shocking him is not worth that. Nevertheless that's an irrelevant thing to think about for me, I've taught Kobe to heel, to sit and down, to distance down and sit, to stay, shake, high five, and many others using Positive Reinforcement methods. That's easy as pie. All I wish is to be able to let him romp and play and explore like I am able to allow Priscilla to do. Priscilla has a phenomenal recall and I have 100% faith in her off leash. I wish I could grant Kobe that faith.

So am I still so evil for wishing to grant my dog that? Am I so wrong or so self-deluding? Am I just trying to hurt the dog I love?

I do understand I can't speak for everyone who uses a e-collar. I am not saying all this as a defense for those who use e-collars, because I have no way of knowing anyone's put the amount of thought and emotion and love into this decision that I have. I have no way of knowing if anyone's put anywhere as much effort in training their dog's recall as I have. So I do understand whatever answer given to me may not apply to everyone else. But I ask this because that's the decision I've had to make over the last four months. So it is important to me to know if I am truly wrong for what I wish.



rambler said:


> If the ecollar would make my kids do their homework I would use it on them too. The idea is, it's a loving relationship but never forget who's in charge.


This, I disagree with. I have no intent of being in charge of Kobe, I adore him for who he is and I have no reason to tell him who's boss. I want to offer him freedom, as someone who is important to me. I don't want to bully him.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.

Dogs aren't proggramed to do everything we want, and if we aren't communicating it to them in such a way that they never get it, then it's not their fault, and there's no reason to shock some sense into them.

Some dogs just can't be off leash. And even with a shock collar, if you forget it, or it stops working, or malfunctions, and he doesn't have a recall, then your in a tight spot.

Because that's the downfall of electronic devices, they don't always work.

And it doesn't make sense to make a dog that won't come back, shock him into coming back.

I don't see why someone would treat a dog any different then they would treat a child. I'm not anthropomorphizing, I'm saying, if a child were to wander off in situations, then you wouldn't put them in situations that would make them wander, some parents even keep their kids on leashes, they wouldn't shock them, and in all reality, that could be considered abuse, yet shocking a dog is all fine and dandy, it's just a dog, yeah it hurts, but it will make things better in the long run. 

Your still inflicting pain, plain and simple. No one can sugar coat it.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Pepper said:


> If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.
> 
> Dogs aren't proggramed to do everything we want, and if we aren't communicating it to them in such a way that they never get it, then it's not their fault, and there's no reason to shock some sense into them.
> 
> ...


I am not sugar coating it, I know if I do shock Kobe I will be inflicting pain on him. Why else would a e-collar work? It has to be an aversive to work.

I realize you are not trying to anthromorphize, but let me try and show your analogy in a different light. The child will grow up and earn it's freedom eventually regardless of your actions, for better or worse. Your dog never will.

Your child will have the freedom to interact and explore with it's world, to make decisions for itself that may hurt or help them. Your dog never will.

Every dog is different, even then. Priscilla probably would not find a difference. The world, as she knows it, exists in me. She lives for me, breathes for me, and loves only me. Putting her on a leash for the rest of her life likely won't make her as much as blink, as long as I was the one on the other end of the leash. I don't find this a very desirable trait, but that's who she is.

Kobe lives to run. He's a nomadic dog and a complete free spirit. Stealing that from him is akin to putting Priscilla in a place I am not. I try to remedy this best as I can by providing him trips to the dog park, and I run 8 miles every day. Soon, though, he will no longer have the dog park and he will no longer have his off leash time in the backyard because I'm moving to a place that offers neither.

I wish no harm on him, and I certainly don't want to shock sense into him. I do not wish to punish him, but if it is to offer him the most important thing to him, I have difficulty denying that to him.

I believe that anyone who would know Kobe, would know that this time is unbelievably important to him. Take a look at the pictures of him running free in this thread:

http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/43002-kobe-pris-s-excellent.html

And tell me that you believe he would be willing to give that up. Maybe you do, but right now I don't think he would be. I believe if he could know what was at stake, he would fight for that freedom.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Is this for a quick fix because your going to be moving?

Or have you just exhausted every method?

And in the situation the e-collar somehow doesn't work with Kobe, what happens then?
Keep upping the level of shocking until your at the most extreme?

Or try a different method?

At least you have a reason to use an e-collar, ironically a logical reason, I just don't think I could give over the fact of hey, you didn't come back, ZAP, there now come back or you get zapped.

Maybe it works differently.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Pepper said:


> Is this for a quick fix because your going to be moving?
> 
> Or have you just exhausted every method?
> 
> ...


Every method is exhausted. My moving presented the dilemma. I'm not trying to fix it quick before I move. Kobe's recall has not improved much in a long while, and I still cannot trust him. All the situations it would be needed are high distraction stuff.

The reason it's not a dilemma is because, even though I've worked on his recall a long time, I've never needed to keep him off leash in a unfenced area. I have a dog park near me, and a 26 acre oceanside dog park a 25 minute drive away. I have a backyard he can be free in. I had all these alternatives, so I never needed the e-collar. I was more than happy to take him to all these places, and go on my off leash walks with Priscilla. It gave him a lot of freedom away from me.

But now all those options are gone, so now I'm left in an either or situation. The fact you see him, a Husky/Malamute mix no less, off leash should attest to how much work I've done with him. This is a dog that ran 14 miles away from me 6 months ago. So yes, my work, I believe, should be clearly evident.

If the e-collar does not work with him, then there's nothing I can do and he will be on leash forever. I'm willing to accept that readily. Kobe is the one who would lose from this, not me.

Believe me, I am still having a hard time with the idea of hurting him. I still, even now, don't know if I'm doing the right thing. I will feel miserable every time I hurt him. Ideally, the e-collar doesn't work as such that you have them screaming in pain. If they yelp when you shock them, it's WAY too high.

The way you calibrate a e-collar is that you start at the lowest, and increase it slowly. The dog is in front of you, relaxed. You increase it until you see a visual sign they feel it. This can be something like blinking, licking a lip, yawning, a faint twitch, and so on. Then you set it one step back before they showed a sign of discomfort.

If I had to zap him to the point he yelps, then that would be the end of that. No more e-collar.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I would be comfortable using the vibrate setting with a dog 

I guess whatever works, works, as long as its used properly, but for good reason.

Not, my dog is mean, my dog doesnt want to listen, etc..

I think maybe this would be the one situation It would be...decent.

But in all reality, I could never do it, I just couldn't, it would make me feel low, and wrong. Because people always have to win and get the things we want, and a lot of times, we will do whatever it takes to reach that level, even if it is painful to reach the destination.

I've tried to train a Husky/GSD/Chow/Wolf up here before to have a solid recall, and a lot of times, they just don't get it, and you do want to see them stretch their legs and run for as long as they want too, so I understand what your going through.

It never really worked, I didn't want to use an E-collar so I simply would just snap on some roller blades and put the husky into a pulling harness and just say, Go.

In the winter, I had him pull me on a sled with a pulling harness.

It was just as much fun for both of us.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Pepper said:


> I would be comfortable using the vibrate setting with a dog
> 
> I guess whatever works, works, as long as its used properly, but for good reason.
> 
> ...


I honestly don't care if Kobe listens to me or not. I don't want to teach him a recall to teach him who's boss, or because I want to be in control. I want him to have a recall for his own safety, so he doesn't get hurt. If being ignored harmed my ego, I would not have Huskies. When Kobe ignores my request that he sit at home, I am amused. When he sneaks some cat food, I laugh and kick myself for it. Neither instance hurts him, in fact, both are rewarding to him. To control that, to me, would be to strip him of his freedom as well.

And to strip him of that would be to strip him of who he is. So no, I don't want to control him. I want to grant him an opportunity, and I want him to be safe in doing so. I'm not going to recall him just because, I'm going to recall him when safety requires it.

Yes, Kobe loves our runs and our pulling. I have no disagreement with you there. It would be fine for me to do that for the rest of his life. When I adopted him and Ollie, I was prepared to do that.

This is just one of the many things I can do, that's all. I just believe in what I think he wants. I also believe he has faith in me that I would do what's right by him. He would never know that he had the option of freedom because that's not how dogs think, and I do realize that as well. But I have difficulty denying that just on the basis he would not know.

As you say, it is hard. For all I know, the first time I use it will be my last. Maybe I can't do it. I have no idea what's going to happen, but until then, I feel I should try.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

RBark said:


> I'll have to ask you then, if you had a dog that you could never reliably trust off leash, and this is the only way you could give it freedom during hikes, trips, and so on. Would it still be so wrong?


I really feel for you....I do. I got into formal obedience competitive work over a decade ago after losing a dog on the street. That dog had 'perfect' stays...or so I thought. Every day for 5 years he held his sit stays in the driveway while I got the mail or the paper. Then one day I turned around in time to see him hit. So, I turned to the pro's for rock solid, unbreakable stays and totally reliable off leash work. 
Now, I know the answer (for me)....I'll never have my dog off leash if there's any chance of harm because there really isn't a foolproof way to do that even with all the training in the world. Knowing that, it just doesn't make any sense (for me pesonally) to use pain in part of my training.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

TooneyDogs said:


> I really feel for you....I do. I got into formal obedience competitive work over a decade ago after losing a dog on the street. That dog had 'perfect' stays...or so I thought. Every day for 5 years he held his sit stays in the driveway while I got the mail or the paper. Then one day I turned around in time to see him hit. So, I turned to the pro's for rock solid, unbreakable stays and totally reliable off leash work.
> Now, I know the answer (for me)....I'll never have my dog off leash if there's any chance of harm because there really isn't a foolproof way to do that even with all the training in the world. Knowing that, it just doesn't make any sense (for me pesonally) to use pain in part of my training.


Believe me, I hear you loud and clear. I am still debating this with myself. You may well be right, right now I do not know what's right. I hope I don't have to endure what you did. And I feel for you.

I will probably come upon my own conclusion as to what I believe is ultimately right. I, too, believe there's no place for pain in my training. Doing pain for competitive obedience, for sits, stays, and all that? Sounds silly to me. Those are all supposed to be fun, not painful. I believe that, and would never use a ecollar for that. I've taught Priscilla and Kobe 100% positive reinforcement to this day. So the idea of using a e-collar for most training does not sit well with me.

But recall? Recall can be the difference between life and death, as I'm sure you are well aware. So I haven't decided what is right, and that's why I am going over this to such an extent. I wish to hear what others believe, because I don't know what I believe yet.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

RBark
I think the e-collar use if you are worried about dog yelping might not be the way to go for you. I would not have a problem as it does not bother me as when looking at the big picture of my dog 14 miles away. Tooney is correct with the 100 levels of pain basically that's what it is, I have said this before in almost 50 yrs of dog work (and I've had a collar most of those years) I have used in on possibly 10 dogs and then only one problem per dog(never used collar to fix 2 problems on one dog)Remember the original Tri-Tronics had only 1 setting, you could call it the fry-em setting. I never used an e-collar for mickey mouse stuff as that work could be done by hand. It was used on outlaw types of dogs. I have no moral/humane etc problem at all for use with an outlaw type dog. I do have a much more humane Tri Tronics now and the only use it gets is every 6 weeks or so I recharge it. This reply is not meant to be pro or con collar it's just facts.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Pepper said:


> If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.


And you see that as kindness?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> And you see that as kindness?


She wasn't questioning if it were kind...we'll never know how the dog feels about it, so your judgment is no better than Pepper's on what is and what is not kind to the dog. 

What she is questioning is what is humane. To Pepper, shocking a dog is not humane, and continual training without pain is. I presume the e-collar trainer, like any other trainer, wants to phase out the use of pain...that too would define a humanity.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

rambler said:


> I clipped on the new e-collar..took her for the usual walk, she saw a distraction, went to bolt, I said "No!", she of course ignored me and I hit her with a stim. She yelped, stopped, looked at me, I then said "over here!", she hesitated, I stim'd, she yelped and came right to me.
> 
> [...]
> 
> This "collarwise" stuff...seems to be an unecessary worry. I used the ecollar from the moment I put it on her, I plan to leave it on her until I am finished with it, say in a month from now. Sure if it was on and off all the time she might make the connection but if you just leave it there and eventually just stop using it the dog is just going to forget about it altogether.


You got lucky. A very common reaction, for dogs who have not been properly conditioned to the collar, is to bolt for the horizon when corrected the first time. This may still happen to you. Vocalizing is not the way to determine whether the the appropriate stim level has been obtained. Some dogs will vocalize at nearly anything and some dogs just won't--even at excessive levels. If the dog becomes collar-wise, you may very well wish you had treated the tool (and your dog) with more respect.

When any one of a hundred things go badly wrong, I'm sure you will blame the collar, or the dog, or anything but the real cause.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> You got lucky. A very common reaction, for dogs who have not been properly conditioned to the collar, is to bolt for the horizon when corrected the first time. This may still happen to you. Vocalizing is not the way to determine whether the the appropriate stim level has been obtained. Some dogs will vocalize at nearly anything and some dogs just won't--even at excessive levels. If the dog becomes collar-wise, you may very well wish you had treated the tool (and your dog) with more respect.
> 
> When any one of a hundred things go badly wrong, I'm sure you will blame the collar, or the dog, or anything but the real cause.


MM
Is absolutely 100% correct. You are very fortunate that your dog did not bolt.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> She wasn't questioning if it were kind...we'll never know how the dog feels about it, so your judgment is no better than Pepper's on what is and what is not kind to the dog.
> 
> What she is questioning is what is humane. To Pepper, shocking a dog is not humane, and continual training without pain is.


Let's not get bogged down in semantics. 

*hu·mane (hyōō-mān')
adj. 

1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion:*

I was stating (don't be misled by the use of a question mark) that I don't believe keeping a dog on leash--forever--is humane. That is of course my opinion. I was merely doing so in a way that I hoped would provoke Pepper to consider whether there is another, equally valid way to view what constitutes humane treatment. And no, I don't have any illusions about changing the opinions of others.

My dog (and most others) has a nervous system highly adapted to following scent and chasing movement. Dogs are, at their core, predators. They have to go off leash to satisfy that part of themselves, and I have a responsibility to impose limits that are mandated by society and that keep my dog safe from harm. I haven't seen a great capacity in dogs for foregoing immediate gratification in return for future benefit. So I have to determine for him the most humane and _effective_ means to impose the necessary limits. I figure I'm as qualified as anyone else to judge what is humane, and what isn't. If you don't like my methods, don't use 'em.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

We have been using e-collars for a few weeks on both Charlie and Kaya, but we're still in the "conditioning" part of the training. And we're doing our training in home with a trainer here. Based on my limited knowlege, here is my humble opinion LOL

As far as being 100 levels of pain, I have to disagree depending on how you use the collar. I didn't want to use e-collars AT ALL but DH talked me into it. I tested them on myself first and they honestly aren't bad on the "nick" setting (quick stimulation, fraction of a second). It's like when you scuffle your feet and then touch something metal and get shocked. On the lower settings (we have 100 levels on ours) I can barely feel at all. So IMO, since we honestly DON'T know how it feels to our dogs, it is more of a distraction, an attention getter, than a painful aversive. Then again, if you are burning the crap out of your dog for seconds at a time, then I would imagine it IS painful. I don't think I will EVER use the "constant stimulation" button. 

But yes, some dogs might yelp. Kaya yelps if she is being chased by another dog and is scared, even if the dog is nowhere near her and hasn't touched her. She wasn't yelping from pain. We started off extremely low and have worked up to a level that gets their attention but doesn't appear to be hurting them, and neither one of them has ever appeared to be hurt, just startled. 

DGG, there are sooooo many ways to use the e-collar, I think you really need to find a trainer you trust to help you out. Ours has explained every step of what we are doing, and why we do certain things certain ways in this phase of training. Conditioning is the most important part, I think, to prevent collarwise behavior in the future and also to not psychologically screw your dog up. For example, Charlie is mental enough as it is  so we are going much slower with him than with Kaya.

Okay I've rambled enough


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Let's not get bogged down in semantics.


It's not a question of semantics as it is a question of perspective. You wanted Pepper to consider the dog's POV (dog-ane) when the dog's POV is not valued in his safety. This is a question of humanity. 



> I was stating (don't be misled by the use of a question mark) that I don't believe keeping a dog on leash--*forever*--is humane.


I don't believe that's what Pepper said.


Pepper said:


> If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to *get* them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.


We're not talking about a dog who's chained to a tree for the entirety of his life. We're talking about someone who's *actively* training the dog to be reliable. Not one method is being discussed, only those that don't cause pain, to which there are many.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Oh and I just got thinking, as for the page button on the collar.... (someone asked, I forget who) 

YES you can definitely use it as a reward marker if you want. We have already started "charging" the pager tone the same way you would charge a clicker: page-treat, page-treat, page-treat.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

> I tested them on myself first and they honestly aren't bad on the "nick" setting (quick stimulation, fraction of a second). It's like when you scuffle your feet and then touch something metal and get shocked. On the lower settings (we have 100 levels on ours) I can barely feel at all. So IMO, since we honestly DON'T know how it feels to our dogs, it is more of a distraction, an attention getter, than a painful aversive.


The shock can only be effective if it administers some level of pain. I understand the idea of testing it on one's self, but in doing so you're essentially equating a dog's emotional response to that of a human. I've stared at painting by van Gogh in awe...would you expect Elsa to have the same emotional response? In fact, if she kicked her leg up to it you might say Elsa hated van Gogh's work. Assigning our emotional response to a dog is not a reason to justify its use. 



> But yes, some dogs might yelp. Kaya yelps if she is being chased by another dog and is scared, even if the dog is nowhere near her and hasn't touched her. She wasn't yelping from pain.


Correct, she was yelping out of fear. A dog that yelps from pain also yelps in fear. Thus the caution in using them.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> The shock can only be effective if it administers some level of pain. I understand the idea of testing it on one's self, but in doing so you're essentially equating a dog's emotional response to that of a human. I've stared at painting by van Gogh in awe...would you expect Elsa to have the same emotional response? In fact, if she kicked her leg up to it you might say Elsa hated van Gogh's work. Assigning our emotional response to a dog is not a reason to justify its use.
> 
> 
> Correct, she was yelping out of fear. A dog that yelps from pain also yelps in fear. Thus the caution in using them.


I really have no understanding of testing it on yourself, unless the self-testing somehow made it ok to use on the dog. The old "if I could stand it the dog should be able to and I'm a good person because I did the test" I never did the shock test because I knew there was discomfort and pain or I would not have used it. In my use it was last resort only, a bottom of the tool bag tool.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> The shock can only be effective if it administers some level of pain.


Pain is a relative term. I would use the vibrate only setting as an exmaple, but since I'm not very familiar with e-collar training and I think that people use vibrate as a warning that the dog had better comply with the command, I would assume that your response would be that the vibration would be a precursor that the dog associates with pain, so I won't go that route.  

For argument's sake, using a nonreward marker such as "ah-ah" might produce the same results as a stimulation from the e-collar if used in a particular way, but a verbal cue is not painful to the dog is it? So I don't think it is fair to say it can ONLY be effective if it adminsters some level of pain. Is there no gray area that you can distract a dog without causing pain? If I give Charlie a pull on his leash (not a harsh correction, just a light tug) and a "look" cue, is that painful? I guess we don't really know.

But I do see the point you are making.



> I understand the idea of testing it on one's self, but in doing so you're essentially equating a dog's emotional response to that of a human.


Actually I was attempting to equate the physical response, not the emotional response. And I know that even physical responses shouldn't necesarilly be compared, but again, terms are all relative aren't they? Even between dogs - some have thicker coats and have different levels of pain tolerance. 

The point I was trying to make was that I thought it would be some horrible, excruciating, yell out loud pain. To my surprise, it wasn't (on the "nick" setting). Again, I see your point - that doesn't mean that the dog won't see it as "not that bad" but we have to be able to make *some* comparisons. For example, poking a dog in the side with your finger - not that bad. Throwing a brick at a dog's head - very bad. 



> Correct, she was yelping out of fear. A dog that yelps from pain also yelps in fear. Thus the caution in using them.


Exactly. Which is why if someone *does* decide that an e-collar is something they want to use, they should get professional help in using that tool. 

I hope I'm not coming across like "e-collars are great! everyone should use them!" (which I don't think you are saying but others may think that) I'm just sharing my perspective from my limited use. In the wrong hands, I think e-collars are a bad bad thing. But used properly, I don't think it is a horrible torture device either. 

ETA: I always read over my posts and think I sound like such a doofus. I hope I am making *some* sense. 



wvasko said:


> I really have no understanding of testing it on yourself, unless the self-testing somehow made it ok to use on the dog.


No it wouldn't necessarily make it okay to use it on the dog. But I wasn't going to use it on them before I had some idea of what it felt like. 



> The old "if I could stand it the dog should be able to and I'm a good person because I did the test".


If this was reamark was meant towards me, I find it very offensive and I certainly hope you don't think that I feel that way. I definitely do NOT subscribe to that sort of justification of using an e-collar, or rationalization on whether or not I'm a "good person." Using an e-collar or not using an e-collar doesn't have anything to do with being a good person or a bad person.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It's not a question of semantics as it is a question of perspective.


I was referring to whether "humane" is synonymous with "kind".



Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't believe that's what Pepper said.


She did say that she would keep the dog on-leash forever, if it could not be reliably trained to recall. She stated that she would not use pain to effect a reliable recall. I would, and I consider it the more humane alternative.



Curbside Prophet said:


> We're not talking about a dog who's chained to a tree for the entirety of his life. We're talking about someone who's *actively* training the dog to be reliable. Not one method is being discussed, only those that don't cause pain, to which there are many.


And it all has to be put into context. If your dog was to bolt a deer, he may come racing back to you and refuse to leave your side for the remainder of the day. Other dogs may initiate a chase and pursue that chase to its logical conclusion. This is a highly dangerous activity for a dog, and one that is difficult, if not impossible, to train for. Likewise dogs who mess with snakes. You may not even see the danger before the dog has made a fatal mistake. 

Waiting for a situation to arise, and hoping that I can offer the dog something more enticing before a catastrophic training failure occurs, is not looking out for my dog's best interests. IMO.

I don't say it's necessary, or even advisable, for every dog to be trained with an e-collar. It's certainly not advisable if the dog's owner can't wrap his/her head around the process.



Curbside Prophet said:


> > But yes, some dogs might yelp. Kaya yelps if she is being chased by another dog and is scared, even if the dog is nowhere near her and hasn't touched her. She wasn't yelping from pain.
> 
> 
> Correct, she was yelping out of fear. A dog that yelps from pain also yelps in fear. Thus the caution in using them.


Not necessarily. Dogs can learn that yelping (or certain postures) can elicit reactions in other dogs and people. Some use them to control the behavior of others. If fear reactions are rewarded, you can expect to see more of them. It's astounding how quickly some dogs can generalize this type of behavior once they've made the association.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> You got lucky. A very common reaction, for dogs who have not been properly conditioned to the collar, is to bolt for the horizon when corrected the first time. This may still happen to you. Vocalizing is not the way to determine whether the the appropriate stim level has been obtained. Some dogs will vocalize at nearly anything and some dogs just won't--even at excessive levels. If the dog becomes collar-wise, you may very well wish you had treated the tool (and your dog) with more respect.
> 
> When any one of a hundred things go badly wrong, I'm sure you will blame the collar, or the dog, or anything but the real cause.


You're probably right. I think my incredible success has to do with the fact that I only used it for certain behaviors. I had a situation this morning at a local Dog park which supports what you posted here. 

I got the ecollar for one primary reason...to make her completely reliable off leash..she was about 85% before, but another dog, a squirrel, another person (especially a child)..and she would be off and running, and as of late she had gotten worse. The ecollar immediately stopped this behavior and she went to about 99.9% reliable within about 4 days, and maybe 10 shocks total, and I was able to reduce the level down to 6..originally I had to put it higher to get a response.

So I decided to use the ecollar to "clean up" some of the other behaviors, including 

"wait"- she picked that one right up too, and she stops on a dime..took maybe 3 shocks total.

"this way"- change direction and follow me. I don't think I even had to shock her once. She already knew that one well and I think the shocks from the other behaviors generalized to her following that one 100%

"over here"- come to my general area. Same as with the above command. 

"I call her name"- she comes right to my feet. This one took a few reminder shocks but now she's about 100%. 

I have had to use the shocks maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 2 days and that includes this morning at the dog park with a huge number of distractions. 


But...

Even though she would come to my feet at the call of her name, she wouldn't sit on command at the dog park. So I gave her a shock after she ignored the sit command. She got confused, and started to walk away from me and not listen even to the command to wait. Because...she associated me with being "a safe place"..all the commands had to do with her coming to me or at least not going away from me.

Suddenly she's right at my feet and she gets shocked..Not good. I instantly stopped trying to correct that one with the ecollar and I don't think I will EVER use the ecollar on this dog to train behaviors that are not related to her coming to me. I will continue to use positive reinforcement at the dog park using some very tempting treats including hamburger pieces and sausage, because at the park, her regular treats aren't tempting enough.

Comments are welcome.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

We still haven't used the e-collar on Libby.

However, we did try it on ourselves. I strapped it to the inside of my wrist and started at level 1 of 127. I couldn't feel a thing when I stimmed. I couldn't feel anything until level 12 or so. I continued to up the stim until I couldn't stand it (level 47). Even then, it wasn't so much that it was painful... it wasn't. But it did make my forearm muscles twitch in a VERY uncomfortable manner.

My DH also did the same test. He made it to level 52.

We have decided that if we do use the collar (and we will do the introduction as was mentioned before... start at level 1 and up the level of stim until the dog blinks, or moves its ears, etc) we will never go above level 50 of the 127 levels available. I doubt that our dog will require even above level 25. 

I do realize that this "test" does not equate to how the dog will feel if we use it on her. It did bring peace of mind to know that the unit works properly!However, the low levels were honestly NOT painful. It was more like the feeling you get when your foot falls asleep because you were sitting funny... that pins-and-needles feeling... but only for a fraction of a second. 

And a comment regarding the "vibrate" setting on collars... I have read that the vibrate is actually MORE disconcerting to a dog than the appropriate level of stim. I have tried the vibrate on the collar, and it vibrates MUCH stronger than a cell phone. I can see that scaring my dog more than a low-level stim would, for SURE.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> She did say that she would keep the dog on-leash forever, if it could not be reliably trained to recall. She stated that she would not use pain to effect a reliable recall. I would, and I consider it the more humane alternative.


So, what's wrong with keeping a dog on-leash all the time? There's nothing wrong with it. I only have my dogs off-leash in safe, fenced areas. I don't care how good their recall is, I've seen dogs with excellent recalls get hit by cars, or run off to something because it finds it more appeasing than the owner. When I go down to the park here, which leashes are required, I always carry a long line with me. That way I can let the dog run a bit and have more freedom, 50ft worth. Especially with Betty, which the sight of any dog and she's going to them. So to let her run, I have her on a long line and can run with her as well, and she get's some good exercise without having to stick to within 6 feet of me.

As for e-collars, I have used them. I've tried many things with Betty to try and correct her issues with other dogs, and the e-collar seemed to work the best. My primary use of the e-collar was the tone button. I had it down really well that when she heard the tone, it meant hot dogs are coming. And she would only get a correction if she lunged. Within a week, she was no longer lunging on walks, instead she would do whatever she could to get a tone. I only used the e-collar for about 2 weeks, then stopped using it, as her walks are a bit more relaxing for me. Yes, she still has her issues, but I don't have her lunging at every house that has dogs now, and she get's plenty of hot dogs for staying with me. So where the prong collar escillated her issues, I was successful in using the e-collar to decrease the issues to a managable level that I can work with without the e-collar. But like mentioned above, I also don't advocate the e-collar. They do have their uses, but if one is going to use them, get the proper training in their proper use. It is so easy to really screw a dog up if you aren't properly trained in using them.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> So, what's wrong with keeping a dog on-leash all the time? There's nothing wrong with it.


Here's why training my dog to be reliable off leash is so important...to ME.

1) 100% reliability off leash means the dog has learned to respect you and listen to your commands and the relationship between master and dog is healthy and properly balanced. I feel this will generalize to all other commands.

2) My dog is a hound dog, and maybe more than other breeds, she likes to explore, and sniff. She walks with me off leash all the time, and she's always within about 10-15 feet ( I could easily shorten this distance if I wanted to), and she can stick her head under a bush, go behind a tree, explore around a rock...without me tangling leashes and getting caught up under branches and such. 

She's happier because she's not limited to just where I'm walking, and I don't have to be tied to her as she checks out all these interesting places.

3) It's very impressive to people (who always comment about it) that we run into while walking that my dog completely follows my commands to wait, to come to me, and just the fact that she won't run off. It's good for my ego...lol.

4) During the winter I can keep my hands in my pockets or wear heavy gloves without dealing with the leash. That also makes it easier to adjust my Ipod and headphones.

5) I may get a second dog. No leash tangles from one dog going this way and one dog going that way. Also when we run into another dog there is no second leash to tangle when they play. 

There are more reasons but those are quite enough, I think...


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Peggy Swager said:


> I stand on my earlier point. Train the dog how to comply without punishment is the best way. How.....well now that is what my book is filled with. No electronic training collars were used in the writing of my book.


Yet the article you wrote in your link above talks about how beneficial the collar can be in training?

P.S. Consider changing the background image of the web page..it's hard to read the black print against the dark and busy background.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

rambler said:


> The ecollar immediately stopped this behavior and she went to about 99.9% reliable within about 4 days, and maybe 10 shocks total, and I was able to reduce the level down to 6..originally I had to put it higher to get a response.


But my question now is, is the dog collar-wise? Is this 99.9% reliability only when the collar is on? Many people think that they have increased the reliability, but then go out with the collar off, and they are back to where they were, or worse. But you put the collar on, and they are at the 99.9% again.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> But my question now is, is the dog collar-wise? Is this 99.9% reliability only when the collar is on? Many people think that they have increased the reliability, but then go out with the collar off, and they are back to where they were, or worse. But you put the collar on, and they are at the 99.9% again.


I've been reading about "collarwise" more than anything else the past day or two, it IS a concern. 

I got the collar last Sunday, today is a week. I haven't removed it since I put it on her last week, except just this afternoon to wash her off after her explorations at the dog park. It's going back on her again after she dries up..so there's no on and off with it. 

I plan to leave it on her for another few weeks or until I no longer need to shock her, and I expect that to be sooner rather than later. At that point she will have forgotten all about the collar because it won't even have been used for days before I remove it. 

At least that's my thoughts on it. 

I understand how a dog can be collarwise if the collar is put on them before every walk and removed afterwards, and if the trainer makes a big thing about pointing the remote at the dog when using it. I don't even show her the remote when I hit the button.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

MyCharlie said:


> Pain is a relative term.


That was my point.  Relative to the dog, not to us. 



> For argument's sake, using a nonreward marker such as "ah-ah" might produce the same results as a stimulation from the e-collar if used in a particular way, but a verbal cue is not painful to the dog is it?


How loud are we saying "ah-ha"? 

A no-reward marker is a consequence for behavior. The question I would ask is, does withholding a reward cause pain? I suppose if the dog self imploded it could, but I haven't met that dog yet. 



> So I don't think it is fair to say it can ONLY be effective if it adminsters some level of pain. Is there no gray area that you can distract a dog without causing pain? If I give Charlie a pull on his leash (not a harsh correction, just a light tug) and a "look" cue, is that painful? I guess we don't really know.


A leash correction I would say is synonymous with a stim, and they are both aversive. Can you use a stim to cue a behavior? Certainly, there are blind and deaf dogs who are conditioned to behave in this manner. 

But I think what you'll find in your training is that the collar's properties as an antecedent to behavior are less profound than its properties as an aversion administering tool through negative reinforcement and positive punishment. 



> Actually I was attempting to equate the physical response, not the emotional response. And I know that even physical responses shouldn't necesarilly be compared, but again, terms are all relative aren't they? Even between dogs - some have thicker coats and have different levels of pain tolerance.


Pain is not a response that is observable. You can detect when a dog is in pain by how he physically acts; you can not detect how much pain he's actually in. 



> For example, poking a dog in the side with your finger - not that bad. Throwing a brick at a dog's head - very bad.


If I poked you continuously without telling you why, would you find that annoying? Is annoying bad enough?

I'm not criticizing the methodology or how one method can be more effective than another. I am criticizing how we justify using this tool for it's innate ability to cause aversion. 



> Exactly. Which is why if someone *does* decide that an e-collar is something they want to use, they should get professional help in using that tool.


I would go even further to say they shouldn't be sold over the counter without a prescription...but that's my Utopia. 



> I hope I'm not coming across like "e-collars are great! everyone should use them!" (which I don't think you are saying but others may think that) I'm just sharing my perspective from my limited use.


Not at all. My comments are meant to un-muddy the logic in using this tool.



Marsh Muppet said:


> She did say that she would keep the dog on-leash forever, if it could not be reliably trained to recall. She stated that she would not use pain to effect a reliable recall. I would, and I consider it the more humane alternative.


Again, she did not say she would keep the dog on leash forever. I don't know how you derived this statement from Pepper's quote. I think you're reading into it. In fact, she goes on to say it would "stink" if she couldn't phase out the leash, which is in alignment with your thoughts, though for different reasons. 

Perhaps pain is the more humane alternative in your case, but you can only speak for yourself. It is not a reason to advocate this method, nor is pain justified by its use alone. 



> Waiting for a situation to arise, and hoping that I can offer the dog something more enticing before a catastrophic training failure occurs, is not looking out for my dog's best interests. IMO.


That is a very inaccurate portrait. Consequences follow behavior. If the dog responds to a cue while behaving innately, the *act of doing* the alternative behavior is the reinforcement...that is the enticement. You wouldn't have to "entice" the dog to do something he finds self-reinforcing. Enticements are used at the acquisition of behavior, not as a consequence for behavior in the worst possible training scenario. The end result of any training method is for the dog to do what we want him to do in a way that he finds reinforcing - regardless of the "enticement" we used to get it.



> Not necessarily. Dogs can learn that yelping (or certain postures) can elicit reactions in other dogs and people. Some use them to control the behavior of others. If fear reactions are rewarded, you can expect to see more of them. It's astounding how quickly some dogs can generalize this type of behavior once they've made the association.


What you are describing is not operant conditioning. Fear can not be reinforced, it is a respondent behavior...it is involuntary. What you're actually describing is learned helplessness, a sad state for any dog.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

rambler said:


> I've been reading about "collarwise" more than anything else the past day or two, it IS a concern.
> 
> I got the collar last Sunday, today is a week. I haven't removed it since I put it on her last week, except just this afternoon to wash her off after her explorations at the dog park. It's going back on her again after she dries up..so there's no on and off with it.
> 
> ...


As for my use of the ecollar when I used it on Betty, I had put it on her all the time, and didn't use it for the first 2 or 3 weeks. That way, when I did start using it, she wouldn't link the correction with that particular collar. And after using it for 2 weeks and then not using it anymore, the reliability of her not lunging at yards where dogs are known to be carried over to not using that collar. Now she's much more managable, to where I can work with her without the lunging, whether the dog is in the yard or not. And now that I'm starting clicker training with her, and getting some tricks down and getting the timing down, I've started reading the book Click To Calm and will see how I can expand my knowlege, in hopes to get Betty into a much more calm and happy dog, even in the presence of other dogs.

Edit....
If the collar is used right away and the dog has become collar-wise, it doesn't matter how long you don't use it afterwards, dogs are very smart. It's like my Rally training with Betty, I tried something with her that we have not even worked on in over 6 months (not ecollar related, I never used the collar in any training), and she actually did it much better now than she did when we were in training. Dogs don't just forget.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Peggy Swager said:


> For anyone who uses these training devices, be aware that they don't substitute for knowing what you are doing. Sure, sometimes the collar will work okay, but there is a gamble when using them if you are not an experienced dog behaviorist.


Very true. 

e-collars are a powerful training tool, and can work extraordinarily well even in the hands of the inexperienced...but they can also backfire, such as my experience this morning at the dog park when I tried to use it on a different behavior. 

"With great power, comes great responsibility".


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> So, what's wrong with keeping a dog on-leash all the time? There's nothing wrong with it. I only have my dogs off-leash in safe, fenced areas. I don't care how good their recall is, I've seen dogs with excellent recalls get hit by cars, or run off to something because it finds it more appeasing than the owner.


The question was one of personal opinion. My opinion is that it is more humane to allow a dog broad freedom, but only once he has learned the limits of said freedom. If that requires some punitive correction to accomplish, I have no problem with that as long as it's fairly applied and tailored to the individual dog's capacity to tolerate it. 

No training or hardware is foolproof. Fences have holes that weren't there yesterday, leashes break, their clips get fouled, or the springs get worn out. We can never eliminate all risks. However I'm quite confidant that I can call my dog off a running deer or a porcupine.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> If the collar is used right away and the dog has become collar-wise, it doesn't matter how long you don't use it afterwards, dogs are very smart. It's like my Rally training with Betty, I tried something with her that we have not even worked on in over 6 months (not ecollar related, I never used the collar in any training), and she actually did it much better now than she did when we were in training. Dogs don't just forget.


Yes, I realize I should have put the collar on her and waited a few days or even longer before using it. There's nothing I can do about that now, except hope that she didn't make the connection between the ecollar and the stimulation, and by phasing it out slowly I hope to accomplish just that. 

I think I'll leave the collar off since I removed it for the first time in a week to give her a bath, and take her for a walk later and see if she's any different. Then I'll put it back on her and not remove it until long after it hasn't been used at all to correct an unwanted offleash behavior. 

Your example, about using a different training correction and getting more success isn't really the same thing as the dog making the connection between the ecollar and the stimulation..you are using a technique that worked well for the dog before, so it's going to work well any time you use it, whether its a day, a year or 10 years...although I agree, dogs have great memories and once they do make some sort of an association it's probabably "game over".

I got a dog once before, many years ago..when he was 4 months old..whenever he would see someone holding a broom he would freak out..something must have happened with him and a broom during his first few months. He NEVER changed in all the years I had him in regard to a broom.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

rambler said:


> But...
> 
> Even though she would come to my feet at the call of her name, she wouldn't sit on command at the dog park. So I gave her a shock after she ignored the sit command. She got confused, and started to walk away from me and not listen even to the command to wait. Because...she associated me with being "a safe place"..all the commands had to do with her coming to me or at least not going away from me.
> 
> ...


This is why it's important to properly condition a dog to the collar for all the commands you intend to use the collar to enforce. The danger is that you may inadvertently correct the dog and untrain certain responses. You will untrain the dog with the collar in a heap less time than it originally took to train her. If you plan to continue using the collar, you should not be experimenting with it. Get with an experienced trainer or get one of the sequential training programs for CC. It is important that you understand normal "lagging" responses, what they look like, and how to work through them. It's not an "easy button"


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> This is why it's important to properly condition a dog to the collar for all the commands you intend to use the collar to enforce. The danger is that you may inadvertently correct the dog and untrain certain responses. You will untrain the dog with the collar in a heap less time than it originally took to train her. If you plan to continue using the collar, you should not be experimenting with it. Get with an experienced trainer or get one of the sequential training programs for CC. It is important that you understand normal "lagging" responses, what they look like, and how to work through them. It's not an "easy button"



Well like I said, for all offlesh commands relating to coming to me or at least not going away from me (the WAIT) command, she has been perfect. 

It's only when I tried to use the ecollar for the SIT command in the middle of a dog park filled with distractions did I realize my mistake, and I do not plan to use the collar for that ever again with this dog...even if it means bringing a bag of hamburger and sausage pieces and a very hungry dog to the dog park next time. 

I intend to ONLY use the ecollar for commands that do not undermine my dogs knowledge that I am a "safe place" and bad things will not happen when she's near me.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

rambler said:


> Your example, about using a different training correction and getting more success isn't really the same thing as the dog making the connection between the ecollar and the stimulation..


I wasn't trying to connect using the ecollar as being the same as a different training technique. What I was trying to get across is memory. Dog's do have excellent memory, and once it has learned something, they don't forget. It's why it's always harder to untrain a learned bad behavior than it is to train a new behavior. Just stating that dog's don't forget, if they learned the connection of the shock with the collar. And yes, they can be worked out of being collarwise, but will take some time, and sounds like you have a good plan in place.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> > *Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet*
> > She did say that she would keep the dog on-leash forever, if it could not be reliably trained to recall. She stated that she would not use pain to effect a reliable recall. I would, and I consider it the more humane alternative.
> 
> 
> Again, she did not say she would keep the dog on leash forever. I don't know how you derived this statement from Pepper's quote. I think you're reading into it. In fact, she goes on to say it would "stink" if she couldn't phase out the leash, which is in alignment with your thoughts, though for different reasons.


Perhaps I'm connecting dots that aren't there, but there is no other way to read her statement. To wit:



> If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash *for how ever many years it took* to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.


I think we can safely assume she would allow the dog off leash once it died, so "forever" may not be precisely accurate. Maybe Pepper could elucidate?



Curbside Prophet said:


> Perhaps pain is the more humane alternative in your case, but you can only speak for yourself. It is not a reason to advocate this method, nor is pain justified by its use alone.


I was only speaking for myself and my opinion on the relative humaneness of various methods. Lots of people have no reservations about broadly labeling aversive methods as cruel. Some people think it cruel to yank a bitches uterus, or cut off a dogs testicles for no more compelling reason than human convenience. I have no problem with that either, so I suppose it's all a matter of perspective.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

rambler said:


> I got a dog once before, many years ago..when he was 4 months old..whenever he would see someone holding a broom he would freak out..something must have happened with him and a broom during his first few months. He NEVER changed in all the years I had him in regard to a broom.


I am going to reiterate something and you can take from it what you will. 

I had a cow years back who would go absolutely NUTZ when you came near her with a pitch fork. She was purchased as a late lactation 2 year old cow (named Paula). We ASSUMED she had been abused or hand an incident with a ptichfork.. her reaction was absolutely over the top. The fork was used to feed her and to clean the manure off the platfrom behind her. We never touched her with the fork.

She had a heifer calf (Ann) which we raised and bred and put in the herd when she freshened. Ann had never been abused in her life. Her Mother had complications from mastits and had been sold before Ann freshened. Ann was NEVER with her Mother (calves are separated from the mother cow at birth and are raised with other calves so they never know their Mother.. we bucket fed the calves milk or milk replacer). I am saying this to show that there was no learned behavior here.

When she was in the milking herd, if we went near her with a pitch fork she went as nutz over it as her Mother did. Ann had NEVER had an encounter with a fork of any kind. She was never abused (we used Novacaine to dehorn calves). She was as nuts about that fork as her Mother had been. 

The point of this story is animals can have fear of things and that fear may be something inherent in the animal and have nothing to do with something learned. Fear is not always the source of somethign rationally explained.. even in cows!

Your dog may have had a broom incident and that may have been the source of his fear. Your dog may NOT have had a broom incident and may have simply had a fear of this object and no previous experience. 

E collars can create fear of things, no doubt. If the dog associates the shock with the WRONG thing, well then, Houston, you got a problem. 

E Collars are a tool in the dog training tool box. I think they are way near the bottom.. to be used when you have tried a lot of other things first.


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## Dogsareme (Mar 1, 2007)

Shaping is actually the steps to training the dog to do a behavior, not giving a command and reward the given behavior.

With shaping you start off with small increasements of the behavior you are working towards. Say you wanted to teach your dog to go get his leash and carry it to you. First you would have to make your dog recognize the spot the leash is placed. You would reward your dog for going to that place. Then once he understand that action you would reward him for touching his leash. Now that he understands that you reward him for grabbing his leash and so forth. The things with Shaping is that you are allowed to do NOTHING, that's right, NOTHING to influence your dogs behavior. You let him think it out for himself. You are allowed to reward the steps and the progress as you see fit, but you cannot point him to the object, you cannot place it in his mouth, it's all about free thinking and problem solving. 

Think of it this way.........you have a new job, you walk into the job and every step of the way someone is there TELLING you what you should do and why what your doing is not proper. But what if you are left to your own devices because no matter how you do the job the boss knows it will get done even if you only get a little bit done each day, but the end result is the same..........everyone gets what they want. Your boss is happy and most importantly YOU are happy. That is shaping. 


Shaping may be something you can use for a recall? What all have you tried?


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I believe in the ecollar for field training but for obedience or behaviors it should be last resort IMO.

I had a terrible experience with the ecollar using it with one of my American Bulldogs named Kado. He started acting aggressive, gone through a few windows, and I couldn't leave him alone with anyone in the house but me. This was a well trained dog that just seemed to change over night. I train myself but couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong so I hired a trainer that had years of experience to help me after I got him cleared from the vet.

We worked with Kado for a month and didn't get anywhere, the trainer said I was doing everything right but gave me some tips to try. He kept coming weekly then he mentioned the ecollar. I agreed because this was the dogs last chance.

Off I went to another trainer that specialized in ecollars with the dog had a few lessons so I knew how to use it. Home on my own I kept it behind me and when he went for the window I pushed the button. That dog who weighed more then I turned around and came at me faster then any other dog has ever in the past. I was able to grab a kitchen chair and kept that between us till he calmed down but needless to say I didn't use it again.

It turned out that Kado had cancer and we put him down but I will never forget the reaction from that ecollar.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

My first experience with an ecollar was terrible too.

I was using an underground fence for Ollie. I put it on him at the lowest setting. I followed the instructions to the dot. The part where you teach them the border and they have to experience a shock.

All it took was one shock, on the lowest setting. For a week after, anytime I went out in the backyard with him, he would cower and hide in the dog house totally afraid of me.

Some dogs just are not meant to use an ecollar, and I wouldn't believe for a minute anyone who called it just a tingle. What it means to me, and what it means to my dog are two entirely different things. My decision to use a ecollar for Kobe's recall was made with this experience in mind. So, it is not an easy decision for me.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

JenD
I have preached this on a couple other threads about strange reactions that dogs will do, I have seen them go 6 ft straight up, I have seen them actually attack the ground and bite and tear up chunks of ground and last but not least attack anybody near them. These are facts and yet again and again on forum there is a week-end warrior who uses the collar on one or two dogs and are absolute experts on the collars. There was a person on the attack the bird thread that advised OP to put a collar on a Chihuahua mix and as far as I'm concerned he could have told OP to just dropkick the little dog through a window. I will guarantee the dog would not attack a bird after being kicked through the window. Sorry for the vent I am done talking about e-collars today.


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## rambler (Dec 28, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Your dog may have had a broom incident and that may have been the source of his fear. Your dog may NOT have had a broom incident and may have simply had a fear of this object and no previous experience.


That makes a whole bunch of sense, especially when I got that dog when she was only a puppy, not more than 12 weeks old..I have always thought, how can that dog have gotten traumatized by a broom when he was so young?

I think you pegged it..there WAS no broom incident.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Jen D said:


> I believe in the ecollar for field training but for obedience or behaviors it should be last resort IMO.
> 
> I had a terrible experience with the ecollar using it with one of my American Bulldogs named Kado. He started acting aggressive, gone through a few windows, and I couldn't leave him alone with anyone in the house but me. This was a well trained dog that just seemed to change over night. I train myself but couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong so I hired a trainer that had years of experience to help me after I got him cleared from the vet.
> 
> ...




The instruction books that come with the e-collars carry a warning NOT to use it with aggressive dogs. I don't know if that is recent or not.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have on more then one occasion seen dogs react like Jens dog did. Unfortunately I have seen many good dogs completely messed up with the use of e-collars in the hands of "the weekend warriors" like wvasko spoke of. The collars have their place but I feel they are best left to people who have had some training in the proper use of them.


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## golfer (Jan 20, 2009)

Just to share, I had a Choc. Lab supposed to be one of the easier dogs to train. This was our 2nd, the 1st was nearly perfect in every way. 
Anyway, Rosie was a hard headed female who would only pay attention if she wanted. She was very smart and lerned quickly. She also learned quickly that once off leash the world was hers.
As a last resort, I put a ecollar on her. Long story short, she loved the collar. When I got the collar out to put on her, she went crazy. She patiently waited while I put it on her. It meant she could go out and run her tail off. She learned to respond when I called and was a great dog.
I don't dare tell you how I worked with her, because it would probably be different with your dog. 
The ecollar is not for a meek animal.
Also since your dog responds with a lead, I suggest you work on that first and a lot.
I used the collar only when off the lead, and she only got buzzed when her behavior was negative to my command.
I believe you can ruin a good dog with a ecollar faster than you can train one with it. 
Spend as much time researching as you can and be sure your commands are clear and understood by your dog. Use no more stim than necessary and try other avenues first.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Thought I'd give an update on the subject, as I kind of left everyone high and dry 


I've decided to continue working Linkin on the long line until the snow clears and I can take him to the fenced in area up at Sowchea School (the only walking distance fenced place around here). I took the boys up there the other day hoping I could give them some run around play time in the fenced area but the gates are frozen solid in the snow (open) and the whole area is covered in at least 2 and a half feet of snow still (apparently the kids never play in there in the winter)...

I did try the e-collar for about a week and I did see improvements. However, no matter how hard I try I can't be fast enough to correct on a higher level when he BOLTS, and without a prong collar on when he bolts he takes me with him. I damaged my knee pretty bad last month when he did this. I'm pretty good by now on how to hold the leash properly and what to do when the dog bolts like that (how to move with him but pull back at the same time rather than stand still where I'm bound to end up on my butt), but unfortunately with all the ice and snow doing this didn't help much as when I stepped forward I slipped and my knee jarred. I have really bad knees to begin with and it was not fun to be on crutches, yet again... so I decided to take this type of training back up once the ice and snow is gone. My plan is that if I can work him in the fenced area with the long line and e-collar if he bolts I can drop the line without any worry of him running away, getting hit by a car etc. etc.

I've also ordered a video about e-collar training from Leerburg (whom I've read a lot of his articles and for the most part we have a lot of the same views on training). It should be here either the end of this week or the begining of next. So I'll continue doing my research on the collar, and continue working with Linkin on the long line but on a prong collar and not an e-collar until the snow is gone.

Thanks again for everyone's advice and input, it's really appreciated.


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## golfer (Jan 20, 2009)

DogGoneGood: Thanks for the update. IMO, you probably will not be quick enough with the ecollar while the dog is on a tether. The ecollar may work best when the dog is beyond the long line which fives you more time to make the command and for the dog to respond. You MUST make certain the dog understnds your command and has time to respond correctly. Your book may be very helpful.
While the dog is on a tether, you might consider the prong collar which I have never used, or since I can't think of what the actual name is, muzzle connection for you leash. I have had good response with this without breaking the dog down. It may be better for your knees as well as when the dog pulls, it turns the muzzle back to you. If the dog is too difficult, the prong collar may be the only way to go. 
Your job is to make pulling on the leash uncomfortable enough for the dog to stop. I don't know how determined you dog is, but you must take strong enough measures to make it stop before it does you harm.
I hope I did not miss lead you fwith my statement on the ecollar. It can work very well, but you must be careful how you use it. I think the book will be very helpful.
Best wishes, be the alpha dog, make Lincin mind. Be smarter than him.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

golfer said:


> DogGoneGood: Thanks for the update. IMO, you probably will not be quick enough with the ecollar while the dog is on a tether. The ecollar may work best when the dog is beyond the long line which fives you more time to make the command and for the dog to respond. You MUST make certain the dog understnds your command and has time to respond correctly. Your book may be very helpful.
> While the dog is on a tether, you might consider the prong collar which I have never used, or since I can't think of what the actual name is, muzzle connection for you leash. I have had good response with this without breaking the dog down. It may be better for your knees as well as when the dog pulls, it turns the muzzle back to you. If the dog is too difficult, the prong collar may be the only way to go.
> Your job is to make pulling on the leash uncomfortable enough for the dog to stop. I don't know how determined you dog is, but you must take strong enough measures to make it stop before it does you harm.
> I hope I did not miss lead you fwith my statement on the ecollar. It can work very well, but you must be careful how you use it. I think the book will be very helpful.
> Best wishes, be the alpha dog, make Lincin mind. Be smarter than him.


Yeah, I use a prong collar on him. I went to Canada West Canine Centre in the fall of 2007 to learn to be a dog trainer and at first we tried without any training collar but he was the worst dog I'd ever encountered (8 months old and ZERO previous training - I got him from someone who kept him in their backyard 24/7)... then we tried the choke chain and he nearly dislocated my shoulder, it didn't even phase him. Finally we tried the prong collar and it worked like a dream. It's the only tool I've tried that has been able to get through to him, but of course he knows the difference between a prong collar and his regular collar. I've been slowly trying to phase it out over the past year and he's good now without it when I get him to heel, sit or down, and a closer stay he listens to but from a distance or a recall he doesn't listen so great, ESPECIALLY off leash. On leash, and especially after working him so much with the long line and prong collar, he's been getting better, but I wouldn't hold my breath for him to listen off leash.

That other tool you're thinking of is a Halti, or Gentle Leader. I do have one, somewhere... and have never tried it on Linkin. It's a personal prefrence is all. I tried it with Coal and all he did was mope about.


The prong collar I own isn't like the ones you find in most pet stores (or at least that I've seen in most pet stores), it's ordered from Canvas Back Pets and they have light links, and I love it. It's not this big bulky thing that adds a lot of weight to the dogs neck, like my old prong collar. The size difference is amazing, and I really don't see the need for such a HUGE collar at all.

Yeah, I think this Leerburg video should help me out a lot. I really like Ed Frawley's style. He kind of trains like I do, a trainer who's not afraid to use both ends of the spectrum. I have come across a few things I haven't agreed on, but I think I'm smart enough to recognize those things and "take it or leave it"


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