# Prong/Choker Collars Torture Devices?



## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I went to a dog show today (it was great I saw sooo many beautiful dogs, all different breeds and even some mixes who were spectators). In a discussion I was told that prong and choke collars are considered torture devices by the AKC--is this true?


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Ha! No, choke collars are what they use to bring the dog around the ring. How could those be called torture if they use them at every show?

Now the prong collars, I have no idea what they think about those.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Can't speak for the AKC, but as with anything, when used correctly prong collars are a very effective training tool. Of course, there are those that would use the prong collar as a tool for punishment, which it was not intended for.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Hmmm...this will be interesting. 
While I have never heard the AKC come out and call them torture devices, I believe they are pointless, cruel, harmful and not a reliable device to train your dog. I love hearing "well in the proper hands...or if you know how to use the device properly, yada, yada" They are tools of force - Using ‘tools of force’ i.e., prong collars, choke collars, do not help to train your dog – they only temporarily stop a behavior. They are adversaries, meaning the dog is going to avoid the behavior that caused him pain or pressure from the prongs or being strangled by the choke the chain. IMO there no reason to cause your dog pain and there are far more humane collars available.
Let the debate begin...


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't know how the AKC could hold any position, with any weight, on what is or what is not humane training.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Prongs are a useful management tool. BoxMeIn, I think you mean they are aversive- which they are- but they have the benefit of stopping pulling very quickly (unlike a head halter which requires time to condition the dog to it and isn't effective for dogs of some shapes and sizes) and effectively (minimizes the amount of stress to handler's hands and arms- especially important with elderly or disabled handlers with strong dogs!) with minimal force. Like any other type of tack, they're just a management and training tool, usually to be used temporarily while the dog is trained to a level that will allow them to use a standard flat buckle collar. 

Despite their rather medieval appearance, prongs really aren't a very strong aversive. Next time you're in a pet supply store, put one around your upper arm and give a good yank on it. The way they are designed means they cannot tighten past a certain point (and that point is larger than the dog's neck), and force is distributed equally around the collar. Each individual prong puts pressure (and it's not too much pressure at that) on the dog's neck, evenly, all the way around- not just on the front where there is no muscle. 

AKC feels that due to their appearance, they present a negative impression of dog training to the general public, and hence they are banned from all AKC show sites. 

Choke chains are, IMO, much more dangerous (especially in novice hands) but since they look so unoffensive, they're allowed. Choke chains do NOT distribute force, so the bulk of the correction is applied to the front of the dog's neck. This is dangerous. Additionally, they can tighten to the point of impairing breathing (hence the name.) A heavy-handed correction on a choke collar can injure a dog. It would be difficult (not impossible, but very difficult) to accidentally injure a dog while using a prong collar for training while using a modicum of common sense.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I have used both types on my own dogs depending upon the need. I think choke collars due more damage to dogs anatomically. Not only do they put a whole lot of pressure on the cervical vertebrae but they also put the entire spine out of alignment by the pulling and the yanking done by the person at the other end. Most dogs are not taught properly on a choke chain and spend all their time pulling and choking themselves. 

I've only used a prong collar on one dog. She was a beautiful dog with thick fur and a thick neck (not to mention a thick head!). I spent two years being sled dogged down the road on walks until my neighbor offered me the use of his prong collar, giving me specific instructions on how to use it. I finally got up the nerve to use it and within 1/4 mile into the walk the dog stopped pulling. From that point on I could just hold a lead in my hand, nothing attached to the dog, and she would stay by my side under complete control.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> Prongs are a useful management tool. BoxMeIn, I think you mean they are aversive- which they are- but they have the benefit of stopping pulling very quickly (unlike a head halter which requires time to condition the dog to it and isn't effective for dogs of some shapes and sizes) and effectively (minimizes the amount of stress to handler's hands and arms- especially important with elderly or disabled handlers with strong dogs!) with minimal force. Like any other type of tack, they're just a management and training tool, usually to be used temporarily while the dog is trained to a level that will allow them to use a standard flat buckle collar.


Awh - you're correct, I meant aversives. Thanks!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversives

While I certainly respect your experience, I still disagree with them.  
They may be a management tool, but they _are_ a negative management tool. I honestly believe there are far more productive, positive ways you can train your dog to walk nicely on a leash. IME, they are a crutch, just like the GL and you double your work getting them used to the regular collar in the end, so why not skip the first "tool" completely? I thought the the world of the GL harness I had used on Rowdy, we trained, he never pulled, he walked nicely, etc. Well, take off the GL and my 60 lb boxer was back to pulling me down the street again. Why did I waste the time? There are a dozen ways to train your dog to walk nicely on a leash - none of them require a prong collar.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Dogstar said:


> AKC feels that due to their appearance, they present a negative impression of dog training to the general public, and hence they are banned from all AKC show sites.


Where does AKC say they are baned from show sites???


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I don't know if this will help. It's from the AKC website section on CGC testing.

*



Equipment

All tests must be performed on leash. Dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars made of leather, fabric, or chain. Special training collars such as pinch collars, head halters, etc. are not permitted in the CGC test. We recognize that special training collars may be very useful tools for beginning dog trainers, however, we feel that dogs are ready to take the CGC test at the point at which they are transitioned to regular collars.

The evaluator supplies a 20-foot lead for the test. The owner/handler should bring the dog's brush or comb to the test.

Click to expand...

*


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

While a PROPERLY used prong or choke is a valuble tool, they are easily misused and can cause REAL damage to the throat. They are an aversive, as they are used as positive punishemnt or negative reenforcement to 'correct' a behavior rather than redirecting the behavior like a no pull chest harness such as the Easy Walk or Sensible harnesses. 

That said, I don't see the AKC banning them as they are often used in the show ring to encourage correct head set.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Prongs are mentioned somehwere in the rules pertaining to dog shows- I'll look it up when I get a chance.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

animalcraker said:


> Where does AKC say they are baned from show sites???


I went to an AKC dog show today. We brought our 11 month old standard poodle. I had a lightweight (there are different consistancies to the metal I got a specific one recommended by my trainer--my girlfriend with a GSD laughed at it and said it would do nothing for her dog) prong collar on Riley. This was his first experience on leash with many, many other dogs around. Riley did great, we had a wonderful day watching all the breeds while sitting under the trees (it was outside). Riley was great we were all soooo happy. On the way out a security guard approached me and told me that he saw my dog was "young" and let it slide when we first entered but in the future I should know that prong collars are not permitted at AKC shows because they are considered torture devices. Now my dog is the love of my life I would never, ever hurt him so I was really upset by this (it actually put a damper on the whole day). I was apologetic and felt terrible and immediately took it off. I have never used it to "correct" the dog like I have seen some people do with choker collars (the whip of the neck thing). The pressure of the prongs alone stop him from pulling, he has never yelped or gasped. I was taugh how to use it correctly by a professional. We are in advanced obedience and most every dog but one (who doesn't listen at all) has some kind of adversive collar on. Two boxers are constantly getting "corrections" with choke collars and it is rather disturbing. I felt bad but I have to say when I took it off he pulled and I really had to work him to keep him at "Heel"--he started breathing heavy, etc.--that does not happen when he has the collar on so IMHO I do not feel when used correctly, like anything else, it is a form of "torture" (there was a massive Great Dane with a collar on but when they entered the AKC area they put a bandana over it...)


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Let me try again. This is from the glossary on the AKC website:



> *Prong collar Collar used for training dogs. It has metal pieces on it that pinch a dog. It is against AKC rules to use this type of collar on the show grounds. Also called pinch collar.
> 
> *


Here is the page of the website:

*http://www.akc.org/about/glossary.cfm*

And from the July, 2006 AKC Board of Directors Meeting Minutes:



> *Special training devices that are used to control and train dogs, including, but not limited to, collars with prongs, electronic collars used with transmitters, muzzles, and head collars, may not be used on or worn by dogs at any AKC event. *


Nowhere have I read that the AKC condemns the prong collar as a training tool, but it seems that the assumption is that, by the time the dog reaches a particular level of competition or testing, it should be manageable with a regular buckle collar.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

So it would make sense that the security guard told me I should not have a prong collar on my dog at the show grounds even tho he was not showing but choker collars are allowed for both spectator and show dogs. Am I correct? (They just condemn that for spectator and show dogs at AKC events)


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

First, I will say I have NO experience with prong collars. We don't use them and don't need to...though our dogs DO wear martingales (limited choke) collars. Most sighthounds, especially greyhounds do because they can easily slip a traditional flat buckle collar.

However, I do like and tend to agree with this article: Training With The Prong Collar by Suzanne Clothier. A side note is that this article originally appeared in the AKC Gazette.



> On the way out a security guard approached me and told me that he saw my dog was "young" and let it slide when we first entered but in the future I should know that prong collars are not permitted at AKC shows because they are considered torture devices.


Now, I would respect the rules of the host club. If prongs aren't allowed, I wouldn't use one (If I did, which I don't). At any rate, it seems like they should have signs explaining the type of equipment that is acceptable at their events, if it's that important to them.

I also wouldn't let anyone put a damper on my day or make me feel bad for the type of collar I had on my dog. I know that *I* love my dog and I know that *I* do my research when it comes to my dogs and their care...so really, any judgemental people can go pound sand.

I remember at one of my first coursing events someone told me that my dog was could lose 2 pounds  I was like: uh...I may be a newbie to coursing, but not to greyhounds. I saw my dog the DAY she came off the track and I assure she is in nearly the same condition. (And my dog went on to handily beat hers  )


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

That is my understanding, Ginny. I'd guess that the term "torture device" or similar terminolgy will not appear anywhere in AKC literature, though.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I lovemygreyhounds hit the nail on the head--if there were signs explaining this and if I knew this ahead of time I would have not had it on the dog and I wondered why he didn't tell me in the first place because I felt duped. Anyway, it did not offend anyone there obviously and many people commented on what a nice dog he was. Regardless, the security guard was a little weird anyway (probably fantasized about it being a torture device--just kidding). Like someone else said, all the show dogs have choker collars on anyway (really pretty ones but they are still choke collars). Another day of fun and education....


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

What show was this, out of curiosity? All the AKC shows I've ever been to don't allow unentered (spectator) dogs.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

This was an AKC Dog show at the Roslyn Art Museum in Roslyn NY. It is an outdoor event and they have it every year. There are six rings and there are also vendors. (I bought a really cool garden shadow of a poodle, looks great outside). If you go to the AKC website and their calendar of events it is under "Long Island Kennel Club"


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Do they only allow spectator dogs at outdoor dog shows?


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

At the outdoor shows I've been to, they've not allowed unentered dogs. But it may depend on the site.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

This wasn't a very big show per se, and there were many people there with their dogs. It was kind of funny the dogs were really well behaved and the show dogs didn't seem affected at all. We were all sitting on the grass around the rings, they even had a hose to give water to the dogs.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Thanks Ron for doing all the work and looking it up. I had no idea that they were specifically banned from show sites. I wonder if they even let vendors sell them, hrm.. I have to look at the pomona shows next weekend.



> Special training devices that are used to control and train dogs, including, but not limited to, collars with prongs, electronic collars used with transmitters, muzzles, and head collars, may not be used on or worn by dogs at any AKC event.


I wonder if the "head collars" would include the halti and similar items?



RonE said:


> Nowhere have I read that the AKC condemns the prong collar as a training tool, but it seems that the assumption is that, by the time the dog reaches a particular level of competition or testing, it should be manageable with a regular buckle collar.


Most of the dogs that I have seen in the obedience are shown with chokes. In fact I've never seen a dog shown in any event with regular buckle collar, with the one exception being the CGC test. Then again the CGC test isn't a competion and your dogs don't have to have anywhere near competion level training to pass the test.



Dogstar said:


> What show was this, out of curiosity? All the AKC shows I've ever been to don't allow unentered (spectator) dogs.


Most of the shows I have been to have spectator dogs around. Though it is highly discouraged, it all depends on the security of the event and how big of a problem it is. I heard a few stories of spectator dogs atacking people and dogs, because they aren't socialized and their owners think it's a good place to train their dogs I also heard of spectators brining their dogs to mate with the stud dogs while the handlers weren't looking


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

animalcraker said:


> I wonder if the "head collars" would include the halti and similar items?


I really hope not. Thats the kind of "thing" I want to walk my dog with, and hopefully go to dog shows with too! (only if my dog is socialized well enough)


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

A Halti is considered a head collar, as is the Gentle Leader.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

The AKC does not consider ANY properly used training tool as a torture device. Any collar or harness can be misused as can be shown by dogs confiscated by humane groups that have plain buckle collars imbedded in their necks. Halti's and other similar head harnesses can cause serious neck and spinal injuries on dogs that are extreme pullers.

If a person considers a properly used pinch collar to be a torture device then logically they must consider the mother dog's correction bites to also be torture. That makes no sense.


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

As a professional dog trainer I can tell you that you will hear all sorts of things about training equipment, good and bad. A chain choke collar should never be used to train a dog and the ones you see used in the show ring are only used to walk the dog around. The dog already knows how to walk properly so no training is required.
The prong collar is one of my favorite training tools. I call it, "power-steering" for dogs. The ends of the prongs are flat, not sharp. The collar is fitted under the jaw and behind the ears of the dog and not hanging down around the dog's neck like a necklace. The prongs simulate the momma dog's mouth around the neck of the pup and most dogs have this memory burned in their brain. The prong collar does not slip over the dog's head. The links are seperated and the collar is placed around the dog's neck and re-attached for a snug fit. This collar must be used properly and the timing of corrections is critical. I use this collar on dogs who are strong pullers.
Many people make negative comments about things they know nothing about and they really should do their research before opening their mouths. To learn more about these collars, go to: www.leerburg.com


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Well there were dogs there with Gentle lead collars on and there was a vendor selling them.......I think that security guard waited all day for me to walk by again, couldn't wait.....


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

threedognite said:


> Many people make negative comments about things they know nothing about and they really should do their research before opening their mouths. To learn more about these collars, go to: www.leerburg.com


Well, i've certainly done my research and I still wouldn't use one on any dog. They are neither necessary nor beneficial. I'd rather use positive reinforcement methods to obtain voluntary cooperation, without the use of devices to force the dog to obey. Such trainers and behaviorists like Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, don't have a need to use them. 

What is so hard about putting your dog on a regular collar and spending the time necessary to teach the dog how you want him to behave? Dogs don't need to be choked, dragged, stabbed or otherwise punished into obeying. It's not a good way to teach, and what sort of relationship do you want with your dog anyway? The sort where you teach him which behavior you actually want and obtain his voluntary cooperation through the control of rewards, or one where you punish the "wrong" behavior in the hope that he'll figure out for himself what's "right"?
You really are better off getting your dog to do as you ask out of respect rather than pain or fear of injury. It will make for a better relationship in the end.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Well, i've certainly done my research and I still wouldn't use one on any dog. They are neither necessary nor beneficial. I'd rather use positive reinforcement methods to obtain voluntary cooperation, without the use of devices to force the dog to obey. Such trainers and behaviorists like Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, don't have a need to use them.
> 
> What is so hard about putting your dog on a regular collar and spending the time necessary to teach the dog how you want him to behave? Dogs don't need to be choked, dragged, stabbed or otherwise punished into obeying. It's not a good way to teach, and what sort of relationship do you want with your dog anyway? The sort where you teach him which behavior you actually want and obtain his voluntary cooperation through the control of rewards, or one where you punish the "wrong" behavior in the hope that he'll figure out for himself what's "right"?
> You really are better off getting your dog to do as you ask out of respect rather than pain or fear of injury. It will make for a better relationship in the end.


Some areas I feel you are so right, but if you are trained to use all and are dealing with a 200lb dog that has never been trained and it is needed ASAP. You in that case need to do what is needed to get that dog a home if time doesn't allow or if the dog is going to be put down. I keep choke collars on my dogs and if used right a dog won't get hurt, after training them I never need to choke them but I also don't need to worrie about them sliping out of a collar. If a little dog I myself wouldn't think of it depending on the breed.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

I think a normal collar is bad enough.. I think prong/choke collars are highly unessacary .


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## piglet (Apr 25, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Well, i've certainly done my research and I still wouldn't use one on any dog. They are neither necessary nor beneficial. I'd rather use positive reinforcement methods to obtain voluntary cooperation, without the use of devices to force the dog to obey. Such trainers and behaviorists like Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, don't have a need to use them.
> 
> What is so hard about putting your dog on a regular collar and spending the time necessary to teach the dog how you want him to behave? Dogs don't need to be choked, dragged, stabbed or otherwise punished into obeying. It's not a good way to teach, and what sort of relationship do you want with your dog anyway? The sort where you teach him which behavior you actually want and obtain his voluntary cooperation through the control of rewards, or one where you punish the "wrong" behavior in the hope that he'll figure out for himself what's "right"?
> You really are better off getting your dog to do as you ask out of respect rather than pain or fear of injury. It will make for a better relationship in the end.


BoxMeIn21,

What you say really made a difference with our dog. Let me share our story…
When we adopted our girl at 1 ½ years of age, we certainly felt that the dog was never walked on a leash. She was pulling like crazy, so we were given the recommendation by pretty much every experienced dog owner to use the choke collar. So we had her on the choke collar for about 4 months. She did show some progress but the interesting thing was that when she was taken out for a walk, it would take about 40 minutes for her to almost stop pulling. So, one day we were browsing through Petco and my husband suddenly decided to buy a harness and try it on the dog. I thought walking her with the harness would be even more difficult, but we bought the harness anyway. When we first tried it on her, she clearly felt odd in it as she refused to pee or poop with it. Even the first time, the dog didn’t pull with the harness. So for about a week we would take her out on the choke collar until she does her business and as soon as she is done, we would take the choke collar off and put the harness. After about a week, we completely stopped using the choke collar and the great thing was that our girl started walking beautifully with the harness. I can only blame myself for not trying this earlier…


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Does that mean that some dogs just respond much better to certain collars/harnesses? You just have to find the right one?


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## piglet (Apr 25, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Does that mean that some dogs just respond much better to certain collars/harnesses? You just have to find the right one?


I guess you can say this for our dog...maybe just few dogs have their preferences and would respond favorably and quickly...I don't know. 
A friend of mine for example, had to go to training classes with her dog, since her dog wouldn't stop pulling no matter what kind of collar/harness, she was using...


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

ok the scoop for the AKC is that it does not allow training collars ie. halti's, gentle leaders, chokes, or prongs on its show sites.... I remember reading the regulation a few years back..... and everyone was up in arms. as I recall they are not taking a stand on whether they are or are not appropriate means of training but that they should not be necessary on show grounds and if they are necessary to keep your dog under control then your dog should not be at the show site.... It was in a gazette maybe 3 or 4 years ago..... 

From the AKC site. 

Training Collars (July 2001 Board meeting)
Special training devices that are used to control and train dogs, including but not limited to, collars with prongs, electronic collars used with transmitters, muzzles and head collars may not be used on dogs at AKC events, except as allowed in the AKC Rules, Regulations, and policies.

The American Kennel Club recognizes that special training collars may be an effective and useful management device, when properly used, for controlling dogs that might be extremely active, difficult to control on a neck collar, or dog aggressive. These collars are also recognized as possibly useful for gaining control at the start of basic obedience training, essential education that dogs deserve and need.

There is a point at which owners should have sufficient control of their dogs to manage them on regular neck collars, without the use of special training collars. This is the point at which dogs are acceptable on the grounds of AKC competitive events and will have the opportunity to participate in those events.
s


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Boy, I'm just sure I read that someplace.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

That just makes no sense at all for the AKC to not permit pretty much every collar but a flat buckle collar when the only kind of collar used on show dogs in the ring is a choke collar.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I completely understand why the AKC/CKC would only allow flat buckled collars for things like obedience. (just because that's the only sport I really know any of the finer points about)

If your competing in obedience, even at the novice level, you shouldn't need any of those tools to complete the excercises. They're pretty simple, mostly heeling, recall, SFE and the sit/down stays. There shouldn't be a need for a training tool if your competing in a class. Sure use them for training if it's your cup of tea, but if you need them in the ring something isn't right with your training program.

The thing that confuses me about the rules regarding collars, is that slip leads are permitted in the ring, obedience ring as well, but voldhardts are not. Most of the people who use training collars at our school use them, me in included (I use flat buckled collars at correction matches) and they are identical to the slip leads except for the snap. 

I haven't had the need to use a prong, but I have seen them used properly. I just see them more often than not being used improperly seeing as you can get them anywhere and most pet store people don't bother to explain how much damage they can cause if you aren't taught how to use it properly. Just like any of the tools, chokes and e-collars included.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Lily- three reasons that I can think of that slip collars are usual in the show ring. 

First, you can only make a buckle collar so thin and still have it stay fastened- I'd say no smaller than 3/8" and have it be strong enough to hold a dog in an emergency- and that'd be a metal buckle, the 3/8" buckles I've seen have all been pretty flimsy. The collar, in the show ring, should be unobstrusive as much as possible. A bulky collar detracts from the appearance of the dog.

Secondly, dogs in the show ring are trained. This means they don't pull excessively. Yes, there's a trend in certain breeds to have a tight lead and be 'strung up' but in general, those are the exception- and the lead's not all tha tight. There's a difference between a taut leash and a dog that is pulling as hard as he can, and it's a significant one. 

Thirdly, in many breeds (mostly table breeds), the leash is removed for the judge to examine the dog. it's MUCh easier to take a slip on and off than mess with anything that needs fastening. Judges are usually in a hurry- you don't want to mess with anything more than you need to in the ring.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Nylon slip leads are actually used in the conformation ring, but prong collars are not allowed. They aren't allowed in obedience trials, either. 

Collars don't train dogs; people do. Those who must resort to choke chain or prong collars are relying upon the collars to do the training they're supposed to be doing! I, personally, don't use a leash when training. Once they understand what I want off-leash, the training is continued with a leash and distractions, taken outside, and then to diverse locations outside and inside to proof the training. Makes things a whole lot easier and happier for dog and handler alike!


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

"Well, i've certainly done my research and I still wouldn't use one on any dog. They are neither necessary nor beneficial."

For every trainer in this world, there are as many training methods. Prong collars ARE beneficial and many times necessary IF used correctly. I use positive reinforcement in my training but there are times when using a prong collar is certainly beneficial. In no way are these collars "torture devices". A chain choke collar IS a torture device and to prove it, all you have to do is put one on your thigh, pull it hard and hold it for a few seconds. You will see how it can damage a dog's neck. Put a prong collar on your thigh, pull it and hold it and all you will see is little indentations of the flat-topped prongs. No bruising, no red marks.
I'm not attempting to argue with you but in my many years of dog training experience, I stand behind prong collars.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I was reading a book by Brian Kilcommons last night and he had a section on collars and leashes, what type dog he recommends them for, etc. Prong collars were on the list and he did not have anything negative to say about them except that they may be difficult to get on the dog (I agree). But slip collars (I believe are choke collars) he said recommended for: no dog. He also didn't like the leashes that go around the waist and a few more collars and he gave his reasons.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Jen D said:


> Some areas I feel you are so right, but if you are trained to use all and are dealing with a 200lb dog that has never been trained and it is needed ASAP. You in that case need to do what is needed to get that dog a home if time doesn't allow or if the dog is going to be put down. I keep choke collars on my dogs and if used right a dog won't get hurt, after training them I never need to choke them but I also don't need to worrie about them sliping out of a collar. If a little dog I myself wouldn't think of it depending on the breed.


 
This is what I use on 200lb dogs that pull, http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?id=74 It works very well and is almost impossible to do harm with it. It works by redircting the pulling. When the dog pulls, you DEAD STOP and the dog will end up FACING you, therefore isn't rewarded for the pulling.

BTW, they make them for Chihuahuas too and are just as effective and safe on a 2 lb dog as a 200 lb dog.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Jen D said:


> Some areas I feel you are so right, but if you are trained to use all and are dealing with a 200lb dog that has never been trained and it is needed ASAP. You in that case need to do what is needed to get that dog a home if time doesn't allow or if the dog is going to be put down. I keep choke collars on my dogs and if used right a dog won't get hurt, after training them I never need to choke them but I also don't need to worrie about them sliping out of a collar. If a little dog I myself wouldn't think of it depending on the breed.


While I certainly see your point, I look at it a bit differently...If I have a 200lb dog who has no training, has never had a collar on, etc...What kind of first experience am I going to have with him if I slap a prong collar on? How sensitive is he? What type of impact is this first interaction with me going to have on his psyche? Why yes, it will be a quick fix, but in turn will he trust me? I feel like I would be backing up before I even started. I would rather take a few more minutes and find out what he responds to in a positive way. If that means having him follow me around without a collar on with bits of hot dog or a ball for the first time, then so be it. I would rather work up to a normal collar in little steps then taking it to the total extreme and have to back up to build the trust.



threedognite said:


> I'm not attempting to argue with you but in my many years of dog training experience, I stand behind prong collars.


No arguments here, I just disagree.  While I respect your experience, I still fail to see how using an aversive can be beneficial in training and building a relationship with your dog. I never said they were torture devices, but the correction is attention getting enough for them to be forced into not repeating the behavior. You indeed are _forcing_ them to comply and I see nothing positive about that. Like I said before, you are really better off getting your dog to do as you ask out of respect rather than discomfort, pain or fear of injury. It will make for a better relationship in the end.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

At the risk of tossing my two cents in and back to the question on the AKC, its common to use a choke or show lead ( which is similar but one piece) in the showing of dogs. However- this is mostly to be able to take the collar off easily for exam in the ring. 
As far as prong collars- never had a use for them. Early training always seemed to avoid the use.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> At the risk of tossing my two cents in and back to the question on the AKC, its common to use a choke or show lead ( which is similar but one piece) in the showing of dogs. However- this is mostly to be able to take the collar off easily for exam in the ring.
> As far as prong collars- never had a use for them. Early training always seemed to avoid the use.



Chokes have never been allowed in the obedience ring. Regs clearly state buckle collar.... I can't even use my martingale... 

however, I dont think they are referring to show leads.... I think to training collars.... the feeling is that if your dog needs a training collar then they are not well trained enough to be on a dog show site..... I can't say I disagree wtih that.... there are to many people who bring ill behaved dogs to shows. 
s


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I would have to say I disagree with that Shalva. In some instances, a 9 month old pup is in the midst of training, doing great but still may need a collar in situations where there are many, many dogs and distractions just in case. How else can you expand your training into a variety of situations? if that is what you have been successfully using all the time?


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> I would have to say I disagree with that Shalva. In some instances, a 9 month old pup is in the midst of training, doing great but still may need a collar in situations where there are many, many dogs and distractions just in case. How else can you expand your training into a variety of situations? if that is what you have been successfully using all the time?


I think there are other places to get experience than at a show.... to be honest I have never used a prong or a choke..... I do it with good old fashioned work.... lots of treats and a buckle collar... do I give a tug occasionally when someone is blowing me off??? absolutely but I have never personally used a training collar. 

I have to say I get pretty sick of dogs that can't behave themselves at shows.... 

expanding training to a variety of situations.... go the the park.... go to the dog park.... but I just don't think a dog show is the place to be practicing. 
jmho 
S


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I am not sure where you are, but you can use a choke but it can not be used to correct. And must remain slack. Its easier to remove that doubt in obedience in competition of you just do not have it on. 
I was not sure if they were talking about breed, or obedience etc. Also no way would a prong collar be allowed..


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Shalva said:


> I think there are other places to get experience than at a show.... to be honest I have never used a prong or a choke..... I do it with good old fashioned work.... lots of treats and a buckle collar... do I give a tug occasionally when someone is blowing me off??? absolutely but I have never personally used a training collar.
> 
> I have to say I get pretty sick of dogs that can't behave themselves at shows....
> 
> ...


No one was "practicing" training at the show, every new experience with a puppy is a training experience in one way or another. I actually wouldn't bring a 4 or 5 or maybe even 6 month old dog there but once a dog is in advanced training they should be able to handle a setting such as the one we were in, heck it was MSG's Westminster Dog Show. If they couldn't I would think the people would leave, I know I would (and probably go home and call my trainer but that is just me). It was a nice day and place for people to bring their, for the major majority, well-behaved pets. Considering where I live there are few things people can do with dogs, I was thrilled, we had a great time. 

There really was any significantly badly behaved dog at the show either and I saw an array of collars there as well. I also don't believe in treats after a certain age. A dog should be able to obey without expecting a cookie afterwards. That it what I have learned in my advanced obedience course and she has been a trainer at the North Shore Animal League for over 17 years (well-known shelter so goodness knows she has seen an array of dogs) . I agree with that philosophy. I also agree that after a certain amount of time, depending on the dog, training collars should be eliminated. My next round of classes we are going sans collar!


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> While I certainly see your point, I look at it a bit differently...If I have a 200lb dog who has no training, has never had a collar on, etc...What kind of first experience am I going to have with him if I slap a prong collar on? How sensitive is he? What type of impact is this first interaction with me going to have on his psyche? Why yes, it will be a quick fix, but in turn will he trust me? I feel like I would be backing up before I even started. I would rather take a few more minutes and find out what he responds to in a positive way. If that means having him follow me around without a collar on with bits of hot dog or a ball for the first time, then so be it. I would rather work up to a normal collar in little steps then taking it to the total extreme and have to back up to build the trust.
> 
> 
> 
> No arguments here, I just disagree.  While I respect your experience, I still fail to see how using an aversive can be beneficial in training and building a relationship with your dog. I never said they were torture devices, but the correction is attention getting enough for them to be forced into not repeating the behavior. You indeed are _forcing_ them to comply and I see nothing positive about that. Like I said before, you are really better off getting your dog to do as you ask out of respect rather than discomfort, pain or fear of injury. It will make for a better relationship in the end.


I also have worked up with flat collars to choke and then to pinch, The dogs still like me go figure! I would never hurt a dog but I will always do what is safe for people in the area as well as for the dog. I also said that my dogs wear them all the time when I am walking them and when they see them come out they go crazy knowing a walk is coming. All the shows I have gone to or have seen on the TV it looks to me like the dogs all have chokes on, maybe not metal but the can choke and they are used to keep the dogs head up. I guess I just don't see the difference.



cshellenberger said:


> This is what I use on 200lb dogs that pull, http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?id=74 It works very well and is almost impossible to do harm with it. It works by redircting the pulling. When the dog pulls, you DEAD STOP and the dog will end up FACING you, therefore isn't rewarded for the pulling.
> 
> BTW, they make them for Chihuahuas too and are just as effective and safe on a 2 lb dog as a 200 lb dog.


I will have to say I do not like the Gentle leader, I have had two dogs slip out of them. The Halti is great because there is a safty strap that hooks to the collar. I have recomended them to owners but for myself I guess I am old school I don't use them even though I am trained to. I also like to go to Obiedence compitition and they won't allow them so the dogs have to get use to a choke. I will say I have only used a pinch once over 25yrs of owning dogs but I would never rule one out if I think it is needed.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Poodleholic, since you proof, train off leash, and then take your dogs outdoors? 

How do you walk them while you're doing all that proofing? 

Just curious.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

I know this has nothing to do with the AKC and why they do not allow prong or choke collars. 

I am not picking on you BoxMeIn21 and I am not trying to start a mouth fight with you. I am just disagreeing with you.



> Hmmm...this will be interesting.
> While I have never heard the AKC come out and call them torture devices, I believe they are pointless, cruel, harmful and not a reliable device to train your dog. I love hearing "well in the proper hands...or if you know how to use the device properly, yada, yada" They are tools of force - Using ‘tools of force’ i.e., prong collars, choke collars, do not help to train your dog – they only temporarily stop a behavior. They are adversaries, meaning the dog is going to avoid the behavior that caused him pain or pressure from the prongs or being strangled by the choke the chain. IMO there no reason to cause your dog pain and there are far more humane collars available.


They are not pointless, cruel or harmful. I have used prong collar (Herm Sprenger) when it was called for. This is a training tool that does help train a dog. Any type of collar can cause pain and damage to a dog. It is in the way the owner/handler uses them that make a difference. I have next door neighbors that own four Labs and a mutt. They use flat buckle collars two of the Labs have collapse tracheas from the collars. I have seen dogs with neck problems from owners using head halters. Now I am not saying every dog can be trained by using a prong collar like fearful dogs, shy dogs, aggressive dogs and puppies. But to call them pointless, cruel and harmful is just untrue in my book. I am all for positive reinforcement but they are some dogs that cannot be train using it. Just take Julia Maclachlan: The Prong Collar Revisited fact vs. fiction. The owner/handler needs to know how properly to fit the prong collar and knows what size and quality prong collar to use. I would not use a cheap unfitted prong collar on a dog.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

luv4gsds said:


> I know this has nothing to do with the AKC and why they do not allow prong or choke collars.
> 
> I am not picking on you BoxMeIn21 and I am not trying to start a mouth fight with you. I am just disagreeing with you.
> 
> ...



I myself have not used a prong in a very long time years but do own one and will use it if needed. Chokes I love and will always use, my dog is trained off lead but he wears one when I am out anyways. So to get to the point I agree with you 100%.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

Prong collars can't be bought in Australia & my obedience club stopped using choke collars 7 yrs ago. My BC hated the choke chain & always lagged behind. When I switched to a soft collar she stopped lagging.
At a recent Ag show, the largest conformation show in Aus. slip leads are mostly used. Many of the small breeds are shown around the ring on 2 legs as they're held up so high. In the BC ring one young dog was thrashing around so much because of the lead being held too high it was withdrawn.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

luv4gsds said:


> I know this has nothing to do with the AKC and why they do not allow prong or choke collars.
> 
> I am not picking on you BoxMeIn21 and I am not trying to start a mouth fight with you. I am just disagreeing with you.
> 
> They are not pointless, cruel or harmful. I have used prong collar (Herm Sprenger) when it was called for. This is a training tool that does help train a dog. Any type of collar can cause pain and damage to a dog. It is in the way the owner/handler uses them that make a difference. I have next door neighbors that own four Labs and a mutt. They use flat buckle collars two of the Labs have collapse tracheas from the collars. I have seen dogs with neck problems from owners using head halters. Now I am not saying every dog can be trained by using a prong collar like fearful dogs, shy dogs, aggressive dogs and puppies. But to call them pointless, cruel and harmful is just untrue in my book. I am all for positive reinforcement but they are some dogs that cannot be train using it. Just take Julia Maclachlan: The Prong Collar Revisited fact vs. fiction. The owner/handler needs to know how properly to fit the prong collar and knows what size and quality prong collar to use. I would not use a cheap unfitted prong collar on a dog.


We can disagree  and I certainly don't feel picked on. I guess I just can't get my arms around using such a device. AND okay,  I went a little overboard on the "cruel and pointless" comments, I have just seen too much damage done by people who "think" they know what they are doing and I wasn't giving any credit to those that _do_ know what they are doing.


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

Luv4gsds:
I support your post 100%. I too have seen injuries caused by various collars and a dog can be accidentally pinched by a prong collar as well but I still stand behind these collars. I don't tell a new client to rush out and purchase a prong collar before we begin the training. I have a bag full of different types of collars and will use each and every one before I pull out the prong collar. It's like buying a pair of shoes. I couldn't possibly buy a stranger a pair of shoes and expect them to fit properly. 
You wouldn't believe how many clients use the cheapest,most poorly designed and poorly fit collars and leashes for their dogs. One client's dog actually had a rope for a collar and a heavy, rusty chain for a leash. This wasn't someone who couldn't afford better, they were just "too busy" to take the dog to Petsmart and buy equipment. I often wonder why people like this own pets. If they are "too busy" to buy a collar and leash, what makes them think they have time to train their dog, walk the dog and be there for the dog? 
Anyway, I'm getting off track here but pet owners need to learn how to properly use the equipment they purchase for their pets. God forbid that someone buys an E collar and slaps it on the dog's neck without following the instructions!!!


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