# Need advice: dog breed alternatives to Havanese...



## cloudcover (Sep 23, 2011)

hello there -

my wife and i (along with our kids, ages 7 and 10) are about to get our first dog and because it's a big commitment i wanted to get some advice from the knowledgeable folks here. we've discussed our priorities and based on those, my wife thinks a havanese would be a good fit. she knows someone who has a havanese and although that's a good reference point, i want to make sure we explore other options that might be equally good or better.

here are our priorities, from most important to least:

1. we'd like a dog that doesn't shed or that sheds minimally.
2. we'd like a dog that will be happy living mostly inside the house.
3. we'd like a dog that's as easy as possible -- we want to focus the crux of our energy on the kids and don't want the dog to take up too much of our efforts.
4. we're willing and able to take the dog for a walk a couple of times each day.
5. we'd like a dog that's not too hyper or needy -- loving and somewhat mellow would be great.
6. we have a house with nice wood floors and nice furniture and would like a dog that won't be too mischevious or wreck havoc. 
7. we'd like a dog that's not hard to housebreak or train.
8. we'd like a dog that's small to medium sized.

given those priorities, are there any breeds that might be a better fit than a havanese? and if not, are there some that would be equally good that we should consider?

i've done some research and a few breeds that look interesting are: maltipoo, bichon yorkie, border terrier, cockapoo, norfolk terrier, and schnoodle. but i don't know enough about these to have a good sense for whether they'd be a better fit for our priorities than a havanese.

thanks in advance! as i mentioned, we're excited to get a dog, but want to try to have it be as good of a fit as possible. 

cc


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I would contact good Havanese breeders (and breeders of the other breeds you mentioned as well) and ask if they have any older dogs available. It doesn't sound like a puppy would fit well into your life; you'd probably be much happier with an older, already housebroken dog whose personality is already known. Many good breeders have fairly young dogs available -- ones they held back to show that didn't turn out to be suited for it, or dogs they've bred once or twice and then retired, stuff like that. An adult, even a young adult, would be far less likely to require a huge amount of work and attention (as a puppy would) or mess up your nice things (as a puppy certainly would -- most of us here have lost valuable belongings to chewing puppies).


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I agree with Crantastic.

Also..


> i've done some research and a few breeds that look interesting are: maltipoo, bichon yorkie, border terrier, cockapoo, norfolk terrier, and schnoodle. but i don't know enough about these to have a good sense for whether they'd be a better fit for our priorities than a havanese.


Just FYI, but some of the "breeds" you are asking about aren't so much breeds as intentional mixes or "designer dogs" and rarely are they breed to good standards by breeders who care about health, temperament etc.
My aunt and uncle have a schnoodle. They paid good money for him and shipped him by air. He's sweet enough but he's hyper, chews EVERYTHING and has been a horror to even vaguely try to train. Basically, he got the worst traits of both breeds.

You should also look into breed specific rescues in your area, especially those that foster since then the foster home can tell you a lot about the dog and may already know if the dog is good with kids etc. Again, like Crantastic, I don't suggest a puppy


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm with Crantastic and Shell. 

Since you have a list of required wants.. a designer mutt is not for you. If you go pick one from a shelter, specifically an adult you'll have some idea about size, coat type. personality.. but buying one as a puppy it is a crap shoot. Mixing dogs that have hair with those with fur you could get more shedding, less.. something in between. Same with personality and temperament. Sadly many people breeding for designer dogs care far less about temperament and health - something that is a pretty big deal.

I know many breeders with young adults or retired dogs or sale. Contact Hav breeds from the breed club site. At least meet some, see if they are for you.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

cloudcover said:


> 1. we'd like a dog that doesn't shed or that sheds minimally.
> 2. we'd like a dog that will be happy living mostly inside the house.
> 3. we'd like a dog that's as easy as possible -- we want to focus the crux of our energy on the kids and don't want the dog to take up too much of our efforts.
> 4. we're willing and able to take the dog for a walk a couple of times each day.
> ...


A well-bred Coton should meet most of those requirements and they are in the same breed family as the Havanese (Bichon family).

Cotons are a little bigger than Havanese (average around 12-14 lbs, about 12" tall, about 2 1/2' long from nose to base of tail), but still are small dogs - they aren't toy dogs, though. 

Generally, they are gentle, easy going, and don't need a ton of exercise or activity. They are definitely indoor dogs and should be good with kids because of the gentleness and they aren't so big to knock them over or such even if they jump up. 

Cotons can learn fast if you are patient and take your time with them. A Coton's coat doesn't shed, but needs thorough combing every couple days to take the hair out. That's the tradeoff. Combs are better than brushes, I've found, for their coat.

I spend a lot of time with a Coton (Wally), who had a rough start in his life and he still shows most of those above requirements. 


I think just about any dog in the Bichon family would meet many of your requirements. The good thing is that if you like the looks of the Havanese, but can't find a good one, just about all the Bichon family dogs look the same, so you can still get the general look of the dog even if you need to go with a different breed in the family (Havanese, Bolognese, Maltese, Bichon Frise, Coton, Loewchen)

Some info on the Bichon breeds:
http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-information/dog-groomer-salzberg/bichon-family-basics.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bichon
http://www.bichon.de/


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## cloudcover (Sep 23, 2011)

MafiaPrincess said:


> I'm with Crantastic and Shell.
> 
> Since you have a list of required wants.. a designer mutt is not for you. [...]
> 
> I know many breeders with young adults or retired dogs or sale. Contact Hav breeds from the breed club site. At least meet some, see if they are for you.


thanks for all of the great info, folks! i completely understand the advice about maybe not getting a puppy but instead getting a dog that's a bit older. but i'm not sure i understand the notion of a "designer mutt" or why a mixed breed would be potentially troublesome. i was led to believe that a mixed breed has traits that are roughly a combination of the traits of the individual breeds involved.

also, is there any reason to think that male vs. female will make a difference?

thanks again,
cc

p.s. i'm clearly not as knowledgeable/careful with syntax as i should be, which is why i referred to "breeds" as including types that are not breeds.  is "type" the right word to describe kinds of dogs including purebreds like "beagle" and mixed breeds like "maltipoo"?


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

cloudcover said:


> thanks for all of the great info, folks! i completely understand the advice about maybe not getting a puppy but instead getting a dog that's a bit older. but i'm not sure i understand the notion of a "designer mutt" or why a mixed breed would be potentially troublesome. i was led to believe that a mixed breed has traits that are roughly a combination of the traits of the individual breeds involved.
> 
> also, is there any reason to think that male vs. female will make a difference?
> 
> ...


A designer dog is a crap shoot.. russian roulette. Most people breeding mixed breeds don't have well bred, good tempered, health tested dogs. Many are in it for the money. While some doodle people are trying to do it right the majority are not. Good breeders don't sell dogs to people like that for a breeding program, so in turn they start with backyard bred dogs that aren't of great quality.

It's also a genetic crapshoot. There is no guarantee that any mixed bred dog will be roughly half of one breed and half of another, so you really don't know what you'll be getting. You could get a dog that acts or looks more like one breed than another.

My big problem with people breeding designer dogs is most lack health testing, who knows what temperaments they are breeding (or if they even care), and often over charge as many don't do anything with their dogs like even companion events.

Most people would call a breed something purebred with a recognizable standard.. and anything that is more than one breed a mixed bred dog.

Male vs female is personal preference. I like boys.. I have friends that only like girls..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

cloudcover said:


> i was led to believe that a mixed breed has traits that are roughly a combination of the traits of the individual breeds involved.


"Roughly" yes, but that's the rub. You don't know what the combo is. It might be 60/40, 80/20, 10/90, 50/50, etc.

You have no reasonable idea of how the traits will fall, and no idea if the dog will then have the desirable traits you're looking for.

You have less idea of the development of the dog, mentally, physically and emotionally. You have less idea of what the "final product" is supposed to look like. Is something going wrong or is it just one trait expressing itself and the other might not yet? 

If you have a super tiny German Shepard pup, you know something might be up. If you have a pup that's a GSD + Maltese mix - who knows - maybe this pup just got the Maltese's height expressed more powerfully.

You don't know if the pup has the potential problems of both breeds, but genetic/health and otherwise. 

There's enough variables when dealing with pure breed dogs, imo. Going mixes just throws in even more and many are harder to account for.


Re: Male vs Female

Some breeds have personality/temperament differences between the sexes. That's not to say some breeds you should prefer one sex to the other. It is personal preference in the end, but there are sometimes real differences. Sometimes the difference is just size (females are typically somewhat smaller), sometimes it's personality/temperament/energy level.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I'd just like to add that while we are NOT suggesting you get a "designer dog" from a breeder, for all the problems and reasons listed above, that if you find one in a rescue that is a young adult and you can see the "final product" and have your payment go to more rescue/shelter work, then by all means, that could be a great choice. 
There are more and more designer dogs being taken to shelters and into rescues, often when the owners realize their expensive puppy didn't come out with the exact mix of only the traits they were looking for and of course for the same reasons any dog can end up in rescue (owner's health, finances, moving, just losing interest etc)


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

> here are our priorities, from most important to least:
> 
> *1. we'd like a dog that doesn't shed or that sheds minimally.*
> 2. we'd like a dog that will be happy living mostly inside the house.
> ...


You've been given much good advice here already, but I don't know if your requirements 1 and 3 match up. Non-shedding dogs require daily grooming to keep beards clean, the eye area clean, and to keep their coats from tangling. They most commonly require a trip every couple of months to the groomers for a cut if you prefer an easier coat. Please be prepared to do this if you are going for a non shedding breed or mix.

About male or female .... in smaller dogs of the Bichon family I have always found the males to be charmers and more willing to train/please their owners.



> Most people breeding mixed breeds don't have well bred, good tempered, health tested dogs. Many are in it for the money.


MafiaPrincess, you know this can be said of those that breed purebred dogs as well.  For the poster, please keep in mind that a truly caring breeder of both pure and mixed breeds - especially small popular breeds that are an easy sell - are few and far between. I believe an older dog is a better fit for your situation anyway. . . . 

SOB


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