# New Baby + Barking



## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

***UPDATE AT THE END***

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I've been stressed about this for months. 

My puppy is reactive. I think she LIKES to bark. She barks at things often. We've been working on LAT and she's been in training since June. She's a 14 month old lab. In some situations I think the barking is getting worse. She's started barking at dogs from the car. She never used to do that. But inside it might be better bc she will "woof" sometimes before full-on barking. 

My sister is having a baby around Christmas. I've known this for months and it's part of the reason that I've been so hardcore about Winnies training. But her progress isn't where it needs to be to be around a newborn. I don't THINK she would hurt it but I'm more concerned about the barking. It just can't happen. So I'm looking at probably having to spend Christmas alone for the first time ever. Obviously the rest of my family will be where the new baby is. Boarding her isn't an option. And I could never leave her with a friend/family in good conscience because her behavior is too unpredictable. I'm at a loss. Ideas?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Labs are a vocal breed and barking IS fun, and self-reinforcing, to most of them. 

Would you be able to exercise her really thoroughly, take her with you and keep her in a room separate from the baby and your family members? Or would she bark if she couldn't see you?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Ideas--

Have you consider an in-home pet sitter as an alternative to boarding? It tends to cost a bit more on a daily basis, but it would limit her contact with other dogs and avoid the problem of barking extensively in a kennel setting (dogs tend to set each other off with barking)

Depending on how far away the family Christmas celebrations are, you could potentially join into the festivities only late in the evening once the newborn has been taken off to bed, or something along those lines. 

I don't actually know how much barking will bother a newborn as none of my friends kids seem to find barking any worse than any other noisy situation and I wouldn't be surprised if your sister slips away from the crowd often throughout a socializing event (dunno if you're talking Christmas sit-down formal dinner, or the big family snacks and drinks evening party or what not) for baby to nap and for her to try to nap too. 

Your dog wouldn't ever really be interacting with the newborn and both should have constant supervision around each other so if she gives a "starter woof", could you just take her outside or into a quiet room for a bit so she can't get as ramped up?

One thing to consider is that separate from barking and the newborn, Christmas parties and dinners are rough when you have teenage dog in tow. There are soooo many things for the dog to get into trouble with from knocking over decorations, peeing on the tree if its real (hey, smelled like a tree...), trampling presents, eating dangerous food items like chocolates, being feed too much from people slipping the dog treats and snacks which leads to digestive upset, and more. If its close enough to drive out and back in a day and not take the dog, it would likely be saner and safer just on all that stuff.

If not, maybe you can invite family to your home over the New Years holidays and have "Christmas" then?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Just grew out a sound sensitive pup yeah barking a full 20 minutes at new silly stuff like the rice cooker hissing..... High Winds on the house, jet planes flying over, I let her bark herself out. for me it was annoying never being able to fully hear any of the cute parrot videos on FB with her barking so loud sitting on my lap. Yes that type of barking is obnoxious and annoying and some time ear piercing at some pitches... Can you as the owner win.. if you try to work with it you provoke it stronger and longer... even turn it into frustration/reactive which is a worse type of barking. I just leave the barking alone from the start.. But if you have spent so much time focusing on the barking.. you need to forget about the barking... if your dog is barking at the windows it should never be about the barking,,, it's about not being at the window, they should be off the window and bark you little head off but not jumping on the window... Bark if you want but you will be sit heel in doing it. It's just a noise it's obnoxious to have to listen to it... but it's just a noise OB skills performance is more important to focus on. 

Honestly speaking I think boarding your dog in a nice facility is a good thing... let them bark their little heads off where no one cares..... where no one is going to give them any attention and they don't have you for support. Go have a wonderful time with your family.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> Labs are a vocal breed and barking IS fun, and self-reinforcing, to most of them.
> 
> Would you be able to exercise her really thoroughly, take her with you and keep her in a room separate from the baby and your family members? Or would she bark if she couldn't see you?


Unfortunately she would whine and howl. She's fine in the crate but not when she knows she's being isolated


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Thanks for the replies. 

I should've said this but Christmas this year is at my sisters and she lives five hours away. She can't travel bc shell either be extremely pregnant or have a baby. So we have to go to her. The plan was to go there Christmas Eve and stay until the 26th. I have an older lab mix and we never had a barking issue. She's always been quiet. So quiet that I would go weeks without hearing her bark. She barks more now with the puppy tho. 

The puppy doesn't bark incessantly but she's 85 pounds and her bark is very loud and startling. I just am afraid she'll disrupt the newborn sleeping, make her cry, and I can't imagine loud noises are good for her auditory system. 

Boarding her isn't an option bc there aren't any reputable facilities around in the small town. 

I'm most upset bc this is my immediate family. I don't have anyone else. So it's not like I can go with other family for the day. Ugh. I've worked so hard w her.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

no boarding facilities around your sister's house or within the 5 hour distance to your sisters? And your right about the baby... being respectful for the baby and your sister is your first priority to your family, and your dogs are your first priority over your self. I had a human aggressive dog and if it wasn't a good set up for all my dogs (7) with the human aggressive dog we didn't go. Because I respected the family, and not putting my dog in a situation that was not at the time in his best interest. And he went to many family get together s and was just fine having the right circumstances and the right people around him. I feel for you as it seems this is very important to you.. but being realistic for this one time is a part of having dogs that need us to make it right for them and protect them from making mistakes at this time. (at this time) never means forever... but just at this time.. if all you focus on is the barking, it's not a surprise that all you have is the barking... it's something to think about moving forward.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

We definitely don't only focus on barking. But barking is definitely my biggest grievance with her. It's alarming, annoying, scary, and upsetting depending on the situation. And I can't continue to live a life of isolation. I live 150 miles from my family. I didn't see them for months after getting my puppy bc her behavior was too nutty. So that coupled with spending Christmas literally all alone is depressing. My family and I have so many traditions but I don't see how I could feasibly participate this year. But then I step back and worry - is this my life now? Good lord, that's terrifying. 

I'm not leaving her just anywhere between here and my sisters. My older dog had a bad boarding experience that's left me a little gunshy.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

100% get where your coming from  and the importance to you. Agree not just anyone or place could watch my dogs. Never hurts to check and see what type of facilities are available and what you think about them as individual facilities. for a 24 hour /48 hour type of stay. Nothing is forever ... Lot of antics are puppy growing antics it's typical to survive to a full mature dog and forget what it was like raising a pup.. It's a shocker to many all the time getting a new pup in the house and think "what have I done" they dogs and individual dogs... and we have so much more for them then a flaw here and there that needs maturity.

have you spoke to your family about it. Listen to their ideas and thoughts. to include understanding your thoughts of not coming because you care about them , since this will be about your sister's special time in her life. Will you feel better having a long skype video session to be a part of the event and sharing over being frustrated that your pup is causing non stop chaos at the family event.

Being Happy and grateful is a choice.. Even with an obnoxious pup that you love so much for all the other reasons    Do hope you find what brings you happiness ....


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

She's definitely a shocker. I have an older dog who has a beautiful temperament. She's just a pure and gentle soul. Loves everyone, very gentle and good. And I don't think
I'm misremembering her puppyhood. I just think it wasn't bad. Then comes this loud, defiant puppy. She's hard. My mom refers to her as my problem child. My vet keeps encouraging me and saying to keep my head up bc this is the point where puppies (especially labs) go to the shelter. 

Some days I'm not sure we're going to make it through.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

It might turn out fine with taking the dogs. Might not. If you went with the dogs and it turned into a problem so that you needed to excuse yourself early, the question would be, is that better or worse than just assuming it won't work and not going?

From what I can tell of dog bark noise level in terms of hearing safety, most dog barks are going to be somewhere in the range of normal TV or music decibels-wise on the low end, food blender to motor cycle at the mid-range, to live rock music or power mower at the far high end of the range. While obviously excessive noise isn't good for anyone's hearing, I also wouldn't expect a bit of barking (especially if you take the dog outside or into a far room) to be anywhere near a dangerous level (NOT A DOCTOR THOUGH)

My observation is also that many Labs are barkers and also that teenage/ young adult dogs in general can be big barkers because they haven't yet figured out what is worth barking at.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

I don't know if it would be worth it to try. That's a long way but who knows. I know the new baby will add stress to everyone anyway bc my sister is a first time parent. I also know that 5 hours is a long way to drive to just leave. She has two cats so barking or nuttiness in general is pretty much guaranteed. My family's patience level with her is very low. Haha I'm not sure they like her so I'm afraid if she gets out of hand then they'll be quick to lose patience with her. 

It's just a sucky situation all around. One that I've been worrying about for a while - like months. And my mom keeps telling me that we'll figure it out. But on the flip side, I've been told in no uncertain terms that Winnie doesn't need to come. And I get it and I don't disagree. If I can't control or trust her I have no clue what she'll do.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

While it might not "help", I have had to spend a few holidays away from family and while (since I actually like my family for the most part  ) it isn't easy exactly, but if you can find something alternative to focus on, it makes the time easier. Anything from volunteering at a soup kitchen to taking a solo holiday on a hike into nature. Helping others have a good holiday is something that can fill a hole but if you aren't emotionally up for that (which is totally OK!) then I suggest walking/hiking/nature. 

Then you can plan a visit when things are not so busy for the holidays and the baby is a little bit older.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

That's a good idea. 

I really don't foresee a time that she could ever be trusted around babies or children in general. She was completely misrepresented by the shelter to me and I'm just trying to hang in there. Not doing a very good job


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Look for a kennel. That's the best solution. A pet sitter can work as well. If you have a friend you can trust to come over and let her outside, walk her and hang out for an hour or two a day would be fine. Do a swap of services even. 

I've left the dogs crated in the car for holiday dinners which worked out really well. I went out and walked them for a few minutes every hour or so. Even if the dog barks it's well muffled and this time of year it's generally cool enough for it to be safe to do this. 

If you end up taking the dog then tether her to you and have her lay at your feet as much as possible. Don't worry about the lack of exercise, this sort of thing is as exhausting for her as it is for you.

Sure loud sudden noises aren't good for baby ears but check. Maybe with the door closed between baby and dog it isn't as bad as you fear. I have a decibel meter ap on my phone, suppose I could check how loud my stinker's barking is. When you visit with baby put your dog in the car so any barking cannot hurt baby ears and keep a closed door between dog and baby the rest of the time?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> That's a good idea.
> 
> I really don't foresee a time that she could ever be trusted around babies or children in general. She was completely misrepresented by the shelter to me and I'm just trying to hang in there. Not doing a very good job


I would say that you should mentally separate reactive barking now from never being trusted around kids. Trusted in terms of fine when supervised I mean. I personally don't "trust" a dog with a kid under the age of say, 7-8 years old depending on the kid and the dog and even then it would be only for a minute when there is nothing to indicate a concern (like food or toys or other dogs). But I am mostly fine with my adult dogs being around toddlers IF I am directly supervising and the dogs are leashed or have a harness on so I can walk them away as needed. The main thing is food-- kids drop food all over the place and dogs want to snatch up food. 

Shelters do have a hard time deciding what is shelter/kennel based barking and stress vs a dog's personality. MOST adopted dogs need at least 3-4 months to settle into a home and often 4-6 months. As such, it makes it complicated for a shelter to assess what a dog's traits might end up being. If I do the math correctly, your dog was very much a "teenager" when in the shelter which makes it even harder to figure out. 

Dog reactivity is not an indicator of human reactivity which in turn isn't fully an indicator of human aggression.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

She's not dog reactive. She's reactive on a leash and barks like a jackass. She's completely quiet at the dog park when she can run off leash. 

And it's not just the barking. Shes very big and rough. Loves to slap and throw her body around. She's just not predictable or reliable at all. I never truly know what she's going to do. My older dog is the complete opposite. Very predictable and a stern voice makes her straighten up. I try not to compare bc I've had my older dog a long time and we are completely insync. I can't imagine ever having that level of relationship with this nutty puppy hahaha


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/191506-links-books-blogs-etc.html

Worth a look. I think a few links have gone stale and I am looking to replace them but overall, a ton of good info.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Your dog is 14 months old. At this age she needs to learn that barking is a privilege, NOT a right. Dogs like to bark. It is self reinforcing. I know.. German Shepherds are my breed and they are very vocal. 

I do not know who will be traveling with you to your sister's but first and foremost, if you are bringing your dog, have her travel in a crate. I travel with dogs all the time and often drive several hours with overnight stays. The dogs are crated. 

Second, because I often stay where dogs are an extra fee or not welcome in a hotel, they stay in the crate in the car. They cannot bark or I will get tossed out of the motel (same true if a dog is in the room). I use an electronic bark collar (or a regular E Collar with the remote in my hand if I am in ear shot). BOTH work well to curb unnecessary and inappropriate barking. 

At training my dog is crated until her time to work. She cannot be burning up energy barking AND we train where there are houses around. Barking on the field is the only place barking is allowed (the bark and hold). When the dog hears a dog barking on the field, the crated waiting dog wants to bark too. Not allowed. Again.. electronic bark collar is on the dog who is in the crate and in the car or truck. Hot weather the hatch or tail gates are open along with windows and the dog must be quiet. 

The ONLY time a bark collar is not on the dog left in the crate in the truck/car is at an active competition where e collars are not allowed. Then, with a habitual barker, I park further away, cover the truck with a reflective (breathable) cover to keep dogs cool and to limit sight or (in cold weather) cover the crate with an insulated cover to keep the dogs warm and to limit sight. Due to all previous conditioning with a bark collar I rarely have an issue. 

I recommend you take your dog with you in a crate. If it is a cold weather location, buy an insulated crate cover (hunting dog suppliers sell them). Get an electronic bark collar. Put it on the dog when you leave the car. 

When you get to your destination, the dog lives out of the crate in the car. She sleeps there at night and does not come in the house. You walk her etc. from the car. You feed her there and put her water in a stainless steel pail attached to the crate wth a double end snap. When you leave her, on goes the bark collar. 

I am sure there will be answers here that will be against the electronic bark collar. Quite honestly, most bark collars are pretty good these days. Many of them allow a bark or two. Some escalate the stimulous if the dog keeps barking until a level is reached that is necessary to stop the barking. The BEST bark collar is no longer made (the old TriTronics Bark Limiter). Garmin took the company over and changed the collar. Some dogs learn to bark around the Garmin collar. 

When you get back from your trip you can use the bark collar to limit barking when it is inapprpriate and to reward the dog for silence. 

At home my dogs wear a bark collar only when they are in outdoor kennels and I am not home. When I am home they all have been taught a "Quiet!" Command and they respond to it. They have been taught how barking works to get things as well as how quiet also works to get things. 

In my breed and competition barking is used to hold the helper/decoy in position. The reward is a bite (pillow, wedge, sleeve depending on dog's trainibg level). However, there are times when we call the dog off with a "sit" command. The dog is to go silent but watch the decoy. In training, that calm, silent but watchful sit is also rewarded with a bite. Getting a dog to bark, or stop barking happens with a good reward delivered at exactly the right time. Outside of this, the dog is taught that barking is a privilege and not a right.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Is it just me ? or is it completely asinine and dangerous to recommend an e collar to a struggling, novice dog owner whose reactive dog is likely to bark at a newborn baby ? and during a family Christmas gathering, no less ? 

OP - please don't consider the thoughtless advice of using an e collar. If ever there was a recipe for disaster, that would be the main ingredient.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

The point was the dog does not need to be in the house or interacting with either the people or the baby. The dog interacts with her owner and is walked etc. from the car. There is no need for this dog to interact with the baby. There is no need for the dog to be in the house (unless it is well below zero.. at which point crate and dog can be in the house in a low or no traffic area).

The advice given was due to the need for an immediate solution that does not include lengthy training (no time) or boarding the dog which was stated as not an option. 

The bark collar is both self rewarding and self correcting and (if you read) is used when the dog is confined to the car. 

The advice was not "thoughtless" (as in given without thought) and to suggest it was given so is rude.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> Is it just me ? or is it completely asinine and dangerous to recommend an e collar to a struggling, novice dog owner whose reactive dog is likely to bark at a newborn baby ? and during a family Christmas gathering, no less ?
> 
> OP - please don't consider the thoughtless advice of using an e collar. If ever there was a recipe for disaster, that would be the main ingredient.


Not just you. I also think the e-collar advice is asinine and dangerous.

Also, you're really suggesting that OP keeps her dog in a crate, in a car, over night?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

3GSD4IPO said:


> The point was the dog does not need to be in the house or interacting with either the people or the baby. The dog interacts with her owner and is walked etc. from the car. There is no need for this dog to interact with the baby. There is no need for the dog to be in the house (unless it is well below zero.. at which point crate and dog can be in the house in a low or no traffic area).
> 
> The advice given was due to the need for an immediate solution that does not include lengthy training (no time) or boarding the dog which was stated as not an option.
> 
> ...


I'm actually more concerned that you say you did think your advice through than if it was truly thoughtless....reason being, you either ignore or overlook or don't understand the potential risks using an e-collar; particularly in a situation like this. There is a reason people here are cautious about giving advice in the use of physical corrections. 

You also appear to ignore or not care about the risks of leaving a dog alone in a car overnight. It does not have to be anywhere nearly as cold as "well below zero" to be dangerously cold as cars are very poorly insulated and unlike a small insulated dog house, there isn't a good way to create a cocoon area for the dog's body heat to build up. Depending on the area, there is risk of dog theft or someone breaking the window to rescue the dog. On top of all that, it would be just plain miserable to be stuck in a cold car all night alone in a new place.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

I take a little offense to being called a "novice" dog owner. I have another dog who is as good as they get. And I've been dealt a difficult hand with this puppy. But I think a novice dog owner would do very little and just wait for her to get better. Or they would try inconsistent and ineffective techniques. But she's been in training for months and the progress she has made is bc I've been consistent and work with her daily. So no, I'm not CPDT and I'm not out training aggressive dogs but I work too hard to be labeled a novice.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

I leave my dogs crated, overnight, in a car or truck (mine has a cap) all the time. It is not "dangerous" (well, maybe if you stick your hand in the crate it's dangerous to your hand!). I just completed a trial where the dog was kept like this for two nights. She won her division.... with compliments to our relationship from the judge. 

It is a very common practice for trial dogs. My friends are even luckier! They have dog trailers (WT Metal and Jones) and the dogs stay in them. They get to a hotel and drop the trailer to do out to dinner. The dogs are FINE. 

Hunting dogs (the OP's dog is a Lab) are kept this way all the time! The quilted covers are insulated with roll up sides and, if anything can be too warm. Dogs are often transported in crates, in these insulated (QUILTED) covers, secured in the open back of pick up trucks (note: crates ARE secured to the bed of the truck). I have seen this in all types of weather. The dogs go duck retrieving in freezing cold water too.

I also read that the OP's other dog is older and well mannered. I did not think of her as a novice or first time dog owner. She has a young, difficult shelter dog. She needs to go somewhere and the issues and time frame do not lend themselves to lengthy training venues. My proffered solution was to get her through this with dog, baby, guests and Christmas all intact. 

A bark collar on a dog in a crate requires no great expertise, training or interaction. The dog actually operates the collar and there is no negative connotation with the owner or trainer. 

Golly... it is an alternative folks. The OP is intelligent and experienced enough to consider all alternatives. This is just one. 

So far I have been referred to as "thoughtless" and "idiotic" for this suggestion. Name calling is not very nice.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Actually it was "asinine" not "idiotic" but either is not very nice. :/


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> I take a little offense to being called a "novice" dog owner. I have another dog who is as good as they get. And I've been dealt a difficult hand with this puppy. But I think a novice dog owner would do very little and just wait for her to get better. Or they would try inconsistent and ineffective techniques. But she's been in training for months and the progress she has made is bc I've been consistent and work with her daily. So no, I'm not CPDT and I'm not out training aggressive dogs but I work too hard to be labeled a novice.


You shouldn't take any offense to being called a novice. Most people on this forum are novice dog owners and trainers. Myself included. I'm fairly experienced with reactivity and aggression. I'm very inexperienced with other aspects of training such as sports, competitive obedience, SAR work, etc. Most of the rest of the dog owners in the world are entirely casual, meaning that they don't try to learn new things or don't work overly hard on their dog's problems. 

This is your first difficult to handle dog and you're having some struggles. That means you're an hard working, dedicated, determined novice. After dealing with this particular dog's issues and getting to a point where they're manageable, then you'll be past novice and working your way into 'experienced'. And once you have a few successes with other dogs under your belt, you'll be very experienced. And once you've worked with other people's difficult dogs and have had success, you're an expert. And once you get paid to do it, you're a professional.

And if I knew someone was keeping their dogs crated in a car overnight, I'd call the police on them. That is an entirely unacceptable way to keep a dog for any extended period of time. And it sounds like a surefire way to make a dog scared of the car, scared of the crate, and severely reactive (this dog in question already has reactive leanings).


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

3GSD4IPO said:


> I leave my dogs crated, overnight, in a car or truck (mine has a cap) all the time. It is not "dangerous" (well, maybe if you stick your hand in the crate it's dangerous to your hand!). I just completed a trial where the dog was kept like this for two nights. She won her division.... with compliments to our relationship from the judge.
> 
> It is a very common practice for trial dogs. My friends are even luckier! They have dog trailers (WT Metal and Jones) and the dogs stay in them. They get to a hotel and drop the trailer to do out to dinner. The dogs are FINE.
> 
> ...


World of difference between a dog in an insulated, secured, and specifically designed dog trailer who is used to travelling VS a dog in a regular crate in a regular car/van. 

Same with insulated quilted covers being used to transport hunting dogs who are presumably not being parked outside a house in a residential area where who know how might be walking by to harass them or steal them. 

Personally, I don't see why you'd leave dogs crated overnight in a truck on a regular basis. Not worth the theft risk alone regardless of any weather related concerns. Or simply someone who finds it funny to harass the dog and get it riled up (which, if you have a bark collar on the dog, then punishes the dog for barking at someone harassing it)

And yes, bark collars CAN have fallout. They CAN have negative connotations. It entirely depends on the dog and the situation. I have witnessed it in person (not my dogs and not my action to put a bark collar on the dogs in question either).

It is also important to remember when giving "advice" on an open internet forum that it isn't just the OP that might consider the actions you suggest. But also people who are reading this later, lurkers, someone reading without continuing past for additional context etc. Who may have dogs that have different personalities, maybe different situations, but who take your IMO ill-advised suggestions and run with it.them; to their detriment. 

Are there ways to secure a dog safely overnight in a vehicle? Yes, given your very example of the dog trailers. Is just saying "Crate the dog overnight in the car" a safe suggestion? Not for the vast majority of situations.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

"World of difference between a dog in an insulated, secured, and specifically designed dog trailer who is used to travelling VS a dog in a regular crate in a regular car/van."

Not really. Most of the dogs arrive in regular crates in SUV's, Mini Vans, Hatchbacks etc. Many do stay overnight in the vehicle (especially those who have multiple dogs). It truly is "common practice." The crates are locked (but not always). Usually the areas are residential around the hotel, but not always. 

We do not know the OP's destination neighborhood or her vehicle. 

I am not responsible for the general public and what they read or how they interpret what they read. Really. Not. 

I have not said anything here that I have not done or seen first hand done with success. I have not insulted anyone or hurt any dogs. 

It is an alternative. You do not need to agree with this alternative or its use. I do not need to defend what is practice and what does work. 

I also do not need to be referred to as "thoughtless" or "asinine" simply because you do not agree with this practice (crating a dog in a vehicle) or this alternative (using a bark collar to stop barking) or have never been party to its successful use.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

People are leaving dogs in not insulated crates in regular vehicles overnight in the middle of winter?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> People are leaving dogs in not insulated crates in regular vehicles overnight in the middle of winter?


Well. It's being recommended that people do so. Don't forget, it's also being recommended that they're left in that situation with a bark collar on in order to reduce nuisance barking.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Well. It's being recommended that people do so. Don't forget, it's also being recommended that they're left in that situation with a bark collar on in order to reduce nuisance barking.


Yea but they said it was "common practice" which seems strange to me. Plenty of dogs would be in trouble at those temps without a heat source for that length of time.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

3GSD4IPO said:


> I do not need to defend what is practice and what does work.


You do need to defend your advice on this forum when literally everyone who reads it disagrees with it. 

Also, not sure where you live and/or travel, but leaving a dog unattended in a car is illegal in quite a few states these days. So you're actually giving advice to someone that may force them to face legal action as a result if they blindly follow what you claim 'works' without any knowledge. Not really a good idea.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

My first post stated this: "..or (in cold weather) cover the crate with an insulated cover to keep the dogs warm and to limit sight."

A subsequent post mentioned an insulated cover as well. 

Of course, the OP may be traveling to Miami.....

Apparently Robert A. Heinlein was correct in saying, "Sense is never common..." *Sigh*


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

3GSD4IPO said:


> Apparently Robert A. Heinlein was correct in saying, "Sense is never common..." *Sigh*


He also said "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity."

I suppose I'll take that to heart and consider your advice a result of the latter instead of the former.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think I might consider it common sense to not advise leaving a dog in a car overnight with a shock collar on. It seems fairly obvious to me anyway. 

For the OP---I kind of feel like you're leading up to "if the family gets mad and wants her gone while we're there I'll dump her at the shelter". Which would be very very bad, of course. So just want to say, if you do take her and the family gets mad about something she does, go ahead and take her to a local boarding kennel. Even if you're afraid of a bad experience, it can't possibly be as bad as ending up at a shelter. You can look up some reviews online to make sure they're not too bad, but, again, any boarding kennel is better than a shelter.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> She's definitely a shocker. I have an older dog who has a beautiful temperament. She's just a pure and gentle soul. Loves everyone, very gentle and good. And I don't think
> I'm misremembering her puppyhood. I just think it wasn't bad. Then comes this loud, defiant puppy. She's hard. My mom refers to her as my problem child. My vet keeps encouraging me and saying to keep my head up bc this is the point where puppies (especially labs) go to the shelter.
> 
> Some days I'm not sure we're going to make it through.


I'm not sure if Cpt. Jack recommended this thread to you, but here's her thread about her dog, Thud, who gave her a ton of trouble at the beginning. It was a really inspirational read for me when I was going through my own difficult times with my dogs: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/335290-puppy-i-never-wanted.html

And here's my thread about my dog, Loki, who was also a complete jerk until he was about two and a half years old: http://www.dogforums.com/pet-memorial-forum/447905-loki.html

If you can stick with it and make it through, I can almost promise you that it will be worth it. I do think the stories with the toughest and most challenging starts often have the best and most meaningful endings.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Thank you for calling me stupid. I am so glad you have to resort to name calling. 

Somehow it is Villainy to leave a (described as reactive) dog overnight crated with water, in a familiar car (covered with an insulated crate jacket if needed) where it is quiet and her owmer caring for her, without the stress of new place, new people, new Mother and baby, and with a bark collar on to keep the dog calm and quiet... 

..Yet it is not Villainy to expose the same dog to a the escalating stress of a boarding kennel for a few days surrounded with stressed dogs barking and worrying and with strangers caring for her. 

?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

3GSD4IPO said:


> Thank you for calling me stupid. I am so glad you have to resort to name calling.


*shrug* If you want to start a Heinlein quoting war and indicate that you think no one on this thread has any common sense but yourself, I'm more than happy to oblige. Any other quotes you'd like to toss out there to be insulting to the rest of us who are trying to help OP while you sit back and suggest potentially illegal, and certainly negligent ideas?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Do you really think bark collars keep dogs "calm and quiet"? Quiet, sure, maybe. Calm, no, that has not been my experience. Usually when a dog who is inclined to bark gets zapped whenever they bark, they pant and pace and drool and whine (until the collar zaps them for that). Very stressed. Being alone in a car is also very stressful for many dogs who haven't been conditioned to it. So , yeah, I would rather a dog go to a warm boarding kennel where they have other humans and dogs around, and aren't getting zapped, rather than be cold and stressed alone in a car being zapped.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

I see some of you saying that in this situation you wouldn't recommend a bark collar. In what situation would you?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> I see some of you saying that in this situation you wouldn't recommend a bark collar. In what situation would you?


Me personally, in no situation. 

I once put a bark collar on a dog. Not even a particularly soft dog. And it caused immense fallout. It shocked him when he was standing on his bed and he never went near that bed again. It shocked him when he barked at people who appeared outside, so he associated the shock with people and freaked out about people appearing even MORE than he did previously. He barked and then ducked and slinked away for weeks after only ONE 10 minute stint with the collar on. 

Lots of other people use them and would recommend them, however. I'm not a fan of things that cause a dog repeated pain to fix behavior that a human finds annoying. To me, barking is a natural behavior and form of communication, much like wagging a tail. My dogs' tails knock things over, leave bruises on my legs and arms, dent drywall and hit other dogs in the eyes. Yet I'm not figuring out a way to shock them every time they wag their tail to prevent tail wagging, because it's a natural dog behavior, and punishing them repeatedly for it would be (imo) cruel.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> I see some of you saying that in this situation you wouldn't recommend a bark collar. In what situation would you?


Maybe, maybe, maybe depending on the dog if the absolute only other alternative was owner surrender to a shelter due to eviction or threat of eviction, threat of untenable fines. Basically, if all else fails and it will save the dog's life. 

Here's the thing--- some dogs, especially of those bred for certain sports and working, can handle it. I suspect this is what a certain poster is basing he/her comments on. But a whole lot of others can be totally mentally ruined by shocks coming from seemingly nowhere. Especially those who are barking out of fear or reactivity and then get jolted even more and bark in response to that. The shocks can shut down a dog, which makes them quiet but it can also make them a mental mess and has the potential of creating bad associations with whatever they are interacting with at the time of the shock. 

As in, dog barks at dog, gets shocked, associated that with the dog. Can lead to dog aggression.

Dog barks at strange human, shock, human reacts in some way, dog barks again, shocked again. Can lead to human aggression. 

Shock collars have their uses-- they can be used for snake avoidance, they can CAREFULLY with expert advice be used for hunting dog recall and similar. But they also have risks and those have to be balanced with the reward and the need. A E-collar for these type of needs is used differently than a generic bark collar. 

Regardless of whether a certain poster has seen fallout from bark collars or not, I have and they have real risks.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

I would never use it on my older dog. Even when she was an adolescent. She's always been very people pleasing, easily shamed (most of the time inadvertently), and would seemingly get her feelings hurt easily. But I'd be lying if the thought didn't cross my mind for the pup. I'm not talking about a bark collar bc I think they can be unreliable - which makes them kinda pointless. But an ecollar. I'm not quite there yet but my puppy is stubborn, defiant, and couldn't give two flying figs less about pleasing me. 

I posted on another board how my dad is rough with her. He's old school and has trained dogs using his methods and thinks he knows it all. He's never hit her but he talks to her very firm (sometimes yells), leash corrects her, and has a commanding presence. And she listens to him! And not only does she listen to him but she loves him. Follows him from room to room, sleeps at his feet at night, and sits by him whenever he's still. It's crazy. One day she had the remote and I had her friggin hot dogs to trade and I'm saying "Drop it". Nothing. He comes stomping behind me and says "Winnie! Put it down" and she spit it out on the floor and trotted after him. Pissed me off. Ugh.

So it's like I've done all this R+ stuff thinking that it would strengthen our bond but we don't really have one. I'm a food source and that's it. But my dad - he hung the moon in her eyes even tho he yells and stomps at her


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> I would never use it on my older dog. Even when she was an adolescent. She's always been very people pleasing, easily shamed (most of the time inadvertently), and would seemingly get her feelings hurt easily. But I'd be lying if the thought didn't cross my mind for the pup. I'm not talking about a bark collar bc I think they can be unreliable - which makes them kinda pointless. But an ecollar. I'm not quite there yet but my puppy is stubborn, defiant, and couldn't give two flying figs less about pleasing me.
> 
> I posted on another board how my dad is rough with her. He's old school and has trained dogs using his methods and thinks he knows it all. He's never hit her but he talks to her very firm (sometimes yells), leash corrects her, and has a commanding presence. And she listens to him! And not only does she listen to him but she loves him. Follows him from room to room, sleeps at his feet at night, and sits by him whenever he's still. It's crazy. One day she had the remote and I had her friggin hot dogs to trade and I'm saying "Drop it". Nothing. He comes stomping behind me and says "Winnie! Put it down" and she spit it out on the floor and trotted after him. Pissed me off. Ugh.


Lots of dogs don't care about pleasing their owners, many 1-2 year old dogs seem stubborn and defiant. You have to find their currency so to speak and I think it is clear you have been working hard with her and are willing to take the time to train in a way that builds a bond rather than destroys it; that builds confidence rather than breaks a dog down; that provides alternative good behaviors for the dog to choose freely rather than the negative behaviors. 

I think it is well worth the effort to continue that path.

There is a fine line between a commanding presence and a scary presence, between firm talking and scary talking, etc. 

You might want to look into "Nothing In Life Is Free" as a sort of compromise path between your dad and you so that both of you can be on the same page for dog training. It includes the structure that he might prefer but with the lack of corrections overall that you might prefer.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> Lots of dogs don't care about pleasing their owners, many 1-2 year old dogs seem stubborn and defiant. You have to find their currency so to speak and I think it is clear you have been working hard with her and are willing to take the time to train in a way that builds a bond rather than destroys it; that builds confidence rather than breaks a dog down; that provides alternative good behaviors for the dog to choose freely rather than the negative behaviors.
> 
> I think it is well worth the effort to continue that path.
> 
> ...



I did. That was recommended a while back. I feel like I implement a lot of those principles bc Winnie responds better to functional rewards. She sits and waits for food, sits to get out of her crate or out the door, she has to sit or lay for pets. I didn't like the no tug rule that I saw on a website. That's one of her favorite games so I don't really adhere to that. 

But my dad isn't involved in her training. Winnie rarely sees him bc I can't take her home bc she acts too nutty. I was able to take her home Thanksgiving. My dad volunteered to keep her until Christmas and promised she'd be a new dog. Haha. I didn't. But our "bond" is nonexistent. I think she could go to someone else and be fine. But my older dog is my soul. I leave and she lays at the back door for me to come home or looks out the window. I'm gone for 15 mins and acts like I just returned from the 100 Years War. She's completely docile but would eat someone's face if they tried to hurt me. And I keep telling myself to not compare that to the puppy but I really feel like I've had that with my older dog since the beginning. So I don't know if Winnie and I will ever get there.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> So I don't know if Winnie and I will ever get there.


You will. It may take a while, but you really will get there. You're doing the right things, not letting your frustration get the best of you, and you're going to eventually reap the rewards of that.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Time. Really, I know it sounds like a cop out but time. It is hard to build a relationship when either party is frustrated or upset so I wouldn't be surprised if when you get a handle on the barking, that your relationship improves and in turn, it makes it easier to train. 

Also, as you note, dogs are different. 

A bond for one dog with their human can be different than a bond with another dog for the same human. I have one dog that plasters herself to me like she is trying to share my clothing and another that acts like he is the king gracing me with a favor when he lays his head on my legs. But yet, the bond is there with both of them.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> You will. It may take a while, but you really will get there. You're doing the right things, not letting your frustration get the best of you, and you're going to eventually reap the rewards of that.



Oh it definitely gets the best of me. And I thought I had a lot of patience. I'm a pediatric speech therapist so I do a lot of behavior modification with kids. But this puppy has sent me over the edge multiple times. But we just vow that the next day will be better. I cried every day for two months over her. I don't cry nearly that often now but I've certainly screwed up many times during this process.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> Time. Really, I know it sounds like a cop out but time. It is hard to build a relationship when either party is frustrated or upset so I wouldn't be surprised if when you get a handle on the barking, that your relationship improves and in turn, it makes it easier to train.
> 
> Also, as you note, dogs are different.
> 
> A bond for one dog with their human can be different than a bond with another dog for the same human. I have one dog that plasters herself to me like she is trying to share my clothing and another that acts like he is the king gracing me with a favor when he lays his head on my legs. But yet, the bond is there with both of them.


I think she's more attached to my older dog even tho I'm not sure my older dog likes her. She gets lots of corrections from her but they seem justified to me. And I figure that she teaches her way better than I could. 

Winnie has started wanting to lay beside me at night. And you can tell she's still puppy bc she wants to be on you, right up against you, or touching you. At some point she usually starts slapping tho so she gets kicked onto the floor.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Getting past the bark collar and reading the rest of what you are saying it sounds like you have a confident bitch. Her behavior (bonding to your Dad, a male, and not to you, a female) is typical of bitches. She sounds confident in herself, but not confident in YOU. Bitches OFTEN prefer to work with and for men. Not always but often. 

She needs you to be VERY clear with her and VERY consistent. Nothing in life is free. Ever. She needs you to be black and white in your communications. This means letting her know she is right by marking the correct behavior and rewarding it. 

(I am going to get slammed for this I am sure, but I know of what I speak here because I have had a dog or two like this):
It also means having a clear negative marker when she is wrong and an associated correction. In the latter, do not nag her. Be very clear and quick and then move on. I use "NO!" followed by a prong collar correction with enough force to truly get her attention (this requires a slack leash to deliver with a sudden and swift uptake, or yank, followed by an immediate release and praise for what you want.. which is typically focus.. and an immediate positive marker of a click or 'yes' and reward). It will take some practice to be quick and clear about it; and can never be delivered in anger. You can SOUND angry but you can't be angry. 

My point is you need to adopt some of your father's method with this dog. It sounds like he is clear with her. Dogs crave clarity.

As you note, your OTHER dog does not need this and is worried about what you want. Totally different type of dog and a totally different training approach (I have one like thus too). A cross word or a look and that one is like, "OK OK... Please tell me what you want and I will do my best!" This dog would never require a bark or e collar. A scowl os cotrection enough. 

My current competition dog is more like your 14 month old. She us very good (maybe great) but she is very much a bitch and every blessed thing I have had to earn. It is all about her and what is in it for her. In the next year or two she may actually become a great dog... it is there.. and it is hard for bitches to get reconition in IPO. 

At three and a half she has become my partner and we have become a team.. but for every step we made I worked hard. She is the e collar candidate. From all you have described I think the bark collar would be fine on your 14 month old. You will know if its not. You can take it off (but I would give it a try in the car). And yes, by stating this I expect the naysayers to slam me some more and call me a horrid and stupid person (meanwhile my dog is trained to a very high level and is super responsive and I love her, so I am unconcerned). 

All dogs are different. Breeds and bloodlines within breeds can be consistent in temperament but even then there are differences. 

Border collies are not German Shepherds and good working Labs are somewhere between the two. Each one you learn from. Each is trained different from the other. One method that works for one may not work for the next.

I suspect you have a nice, confident and higher drive dog in that 14 month old dog. Given some clarity, structure and clear, consistent boundaries she may very well be the best dog you ever own. GOOD LUCK. 

OK folks. Have at the slamming. I have work to do and a great dog to train.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I think part of the reason you're having trouble bonding with your puppy is that she's so, so different from your current dog. You expected a similar dog and you're disappointed that she's not. Also, seeing your puppy as " stubborn, defiant, and couldn't give two flying figs less about pleasing me. " isn't helping. Perhaps changing your perspective to seeing your puppy as confused, unsure, and having a different currency that you haven't yet found would help create more positive feelings towards her.



> I feel like I implement a lot of those principles bc Winnie responds better to functional rewards. She sits and waits for food, sits to get out of her crate or out the door, she has to sit or lay for pets.


Find more ways to incorporate functional rewards, then. 



> I didn't like the no tug rule that I saw on a website. That's one of her favorite games so I don't really adhere to that.


How often do you use tug as a reward for behavior you like?

Also about Nothing in Life is Free type protocols, many will say "do exactly this." You don't need to exactly what they prescribe. Find what works for you and your dog. If some scenario doesn't make sense to you or work for your lifestyle, don't do it or adapt it so it will work. Like with the no tug rule - it's probably rooted in the idea that tug makes dogs aggressive or losing makes you less alpha or some such nonsense. In reality, tug is a great game to play with your dog and can teach valuable skills like impulse control, "take" and "drop," and burns energy. 

I think I linked the Nicole Wilde "Should I Eat Before My Dog" post in a previous message, but that has really good advice.

As far as bark collars, maybe, maybe, maybe in a situation like Shell mentioned where all other options have failed and the alternative is surrendering a dog to a shelter. Maybe. Overall, I agree with Shell and Hiraeth that bark collars are not a solution.

In your situation where the suggestion is to take your dog who admittedly barks at things she sees and hears out of her home; travel several hours (has she traveled that distance before? do you know how she handles long car rides?); and leave her alone in a car (has she ever been left alone in a car?), in an unfamiliar place, in December (what are the temperatures like where you're going?), with a bark collar - no, absolutely not.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

3GSD4IPO said:


> Getting past the bark collar and reading the rest of what you are saying it sounds like you have a confident bitch. Her behavior (bonding to your Dad, a male, and not to you, a female) is typical of bitches. She sounds confident in herself, but not confident in YOU. Bitches OFTEN prefer to work with and for men. Not always but often.
> 
> She needs you to be VERY clear with her and VERY consistent. Nothing in life is free. Ever. She needs you to be black and white in your communications. This means letting her know she is right by marking the correct behavior and rewarding it.
> 
> ...


So here's the thing. You train IPO dogs. You want your dogs to have energy and excitement and drive and to be confident enough to run up to people and bite them and not back down from a threat. And your training methods work for dogs who are hard and strong and driven. Your training methods also work for people who have a ton of experience with IPO and who are under the supervision of a professional.

Your training methods are NOT necessary for the training of a companion. OP's dog isn't an IPO dog. She doesn't want to train for the same things you're training for. And if she uses your advice of a swift prong correction every time her dog gets excited to see someone, her dog is going to become even more reactive than she is currently.

I think you're new on the forum, and you really need to take a step back and think about the advice you give here. You're not talking to people at your IPO club with high drive, hard dogs. You're talking to people who have companions of varying temperaments, and you're giving advice that could be downright dangerous. For instance, you're suggesting a prong collar, but you make no mention of how to fit a prong collar. So what happens when someone reads that, puts a too-loose prong collar low on their dogs neck, harshly corrects and collapses the dog's trachea because of what you've suggested here?

I think many people are not nearly as R+ as they say they are on this forum. However, R+ is the safest advice to give in this setting, along with 'hire a professional'. Because R+ is never going to collapse a trachea, or traumatize a dog. It takes great skill to use R+ effectively, but ineffective R+ isn't dangerous. Ineffective or poorly applied P+ IS dangerous. And people who suggest it in an online setting without even being able to see the dog and trainer in question are irresponsible and negligent.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

I'm curious about something and don't want to create another thread. 

Winnie goes to daycare on school nights because playing all day brings her down to a level where she can learn and focus - so in school she pays more attention. This morning when I dropped her off she slunk to the floor and tried to run out the door with me. Now, there was LOTS of barking so I thought that could be it. And even tho some here have mischaracterized Winnie as confident - she's not. She's very much a puppy that loves to play with other dogs but that is still learning her place. 

Do you think her wanting to leave is indicative of her not liking it? I've noticed she's gotten a little more unsure the past couple of weeks but the workers say she loves it. It's a husband and wife team, small operation, and attached to a vet clinic. Great reviews online and the wife is a vet tech. So I tried my best to pick a good place. I just didn't know if I was reading too much into it. I felt bad leaving her - especially if she was scared.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> I'm curious about something and don't want to create another thread.
> 
> Winnie goes to daycare on school nights because playing all day brings her down to a level where she can learn and focus - so in school she pays more attention. This morning when I dropped her off she slunk to the floor and tried to run out the door with me. Now, there was LOTS of barking so I thought that could be it. And even tho some here have mischaracterized Winnie as confident - she's not. She's very much a puppy that loves to play with other dogs but that is still learning her place.
> 
> Do you think her wanting to leave is indicative of her not liking it? I've noticed she's gotten a little more unsure the past couple of weeks but the workers say she loves it. It's a husband and wife team, small operation, and attached to a vet clinic. Great reviews online and the wife is a vet tech. So I tried my best to pick a good place. I just didn't know if I was reading too much into it. I felt bad leaving her - especially if she was scared.


She sounds confident in some respects, but nervous in others. For instance, in the video you posted on your other thread, she looked very confident and assertive when she was on a leash with you handling her, probably because she is happy when you're around and has faith that harm isn't going to befall her in your presence. 

I'd be a bit concerned about that type of reaction. It may just have been the excessive barking, though. Have you ever noticed her becoming unsure when she has heard other dogs barking in the past?


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> She sounds confident in some respects, but nervous in others. For instance, in the video you posted on your other thread, she looked very confident and assertive when she was on a leash with you handling her, probably because she is happy when you're around and has faith that harm isn't going to befall her in your presence.
> 
> I'd be a bit concerned about that type of reaction. It may just have been the excessive barking, though. Have you ever noticed her becoming unsure when she has heard other dogs barking in the past?


She's unsure in a lot of new situations. One day she spent 5 mins barking at a watermelon I brought home hahaha Depending on the situation sometimes I throw her in and let her swim. There are some situations that I know she would like. One example is literal - she loves water so I pushed her in the shallow end of a pool and she loved it. But when we first started going to the dog bark she was timid. She would cling to people, freeze when approached, but attempt to sniff butts once the approaching dog walked away. You could tell she was timid but WANTED to be social. Now she's good at the dog park but can become timid over very assertive (obnoxious) dogs. Again, she's still learning her place. While I don't want to force her to do things she hates - I think the only way to get over the scariness of new situations is to just do them. 

So yes, it could've been the barking. Maybe the dog was saying "I love to eat big goofy puppies" in dog language.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

14 mo is a stupid age for most labs. I wouldn't take current adolescent behaviors to be indicative of what adult behaviors will be like. I'd never have kept a lab or golden out of puppyhood had I thought they'd be like that their entire lives. A good lab pup/adolescent is the aberration, not the naughty lab pup. 

You have a month. That's plenty of time to do your research and footwork and find a boarding facility or carer that meets your high standards somewhere either en route or in the vicinity of your sister's place. (Note that many vet's offices also provide boarding, even if they don't advertise the service.) The dog is not going to grow up in one month, so there's no point in procrastinating. And besides this particular pressing issue, it's just a good idea to have some backup options for pet care already established. You never know when you might have an accident, emergency, housing crisis, etc. 



Morgan84 said:


> I see some of you saying that in this situation you wouldn't recommend a bark collar. In what situation would you?


I had to live in an urban area for a couple years for grad school. My dog apparently was yappy as heck when I wasn't home. As a broke grad student renter I needed to address the situation, and a citronella bark collar did the job. This dog, now elderly, is about the "hardest" dog I've ever owned, not in the sense of being difficult, but as in the opposite of "soft" - she's not afraid of much of anything, doesn't care about punishment, and has an apparent astronomical pain threshold. She is the canine personification of IDGAF. Also, she was already a stable, otherwise well-trained adult at the time. I wouldn't have used a mechanical aversive on a softer or more malleable animal, or if I could have been present to use a different approach.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> I'm curious about something and don't want to create another thread.
> 
> Winnie goes to daycare on school nights because playing all day brings her down to a level where she can learn and focus - so in school she pays more attention. This morning when I dropped her off she slunk to the floor and tried to run out the door with me. Now, there was LOTS of barking so I thought that could be it. And even tho some here have mischaracterized Winnie as confident - she's not. She's very much a puppy that loves to play with other dogs but that is still learning her place.
> 
> Do you think her wanting to leave is indicative of her not liking it? I've noticed she's gotten a little more unsure the past couple of weeks but the workers say she loves it. It's a husband and wife team, small operation, and attached to a vet clinic. Great reviews online and the wife is a vet tech. So I tried my best to pick a good place. I just didn't know if I was reading too much into it. I felt bad leaving her - especially if she was scared.


How many days each week does she go to the doggie daycare? During the day, do they do rest breaks for the dogs or rotate play time or similar?


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> How many days each week does she go to the doggie daycare? During the day, do they do rest breaks for the dogs or rotate play time or similar?


Right now she only goes on school nights - right now that's only Wed. She's there all day and I pick her up on the way to school. I don't have time to walk her before her 6 pm class and taking a lab puppy that's been in a crate all day is bad news bears. She acts even nuttier.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

parus said:


> 14 mo is a stupid age for most labs. I wouldn't take current adolescent behaviors to be indicative of what adult behaviors will be like. I'd never have kept a lab or golden out of puppyhood had I thought they'd be like that their entire lives. A good lab pup/adolescent is the aberration, not the naughty lab pup.


I keep wondering "why are labs the most sought after dog?! This asshole is bananas". I'm hoping as she matures then she shows me why. 

One of the vets at my clinic is super old and very straight forward. I said "I don't know why I thought it was a good idea to adopt a lab puppy in the middle of adolescence" and he replied "I don't know why anyone would think that's a good idea" Hahaha


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

> So here's the thing. You train IPO dogs. You want your dogs to have energy and excitement and drive and to be confident enough to run up to people and bite them and not back down from a threat. And your training methods work for dogs who are hard and strong and driven. Your training methods also work for people who have a ton of experience with IPO and who are under the supervision of a professional.


Not entirely true. Many many dogs in IPO are not hard, have weak nerve and are not really good at it. All three phases test that aspect of the dog. 

The test started as a breeding suitability test for the GSD. It has since morphed into a sport and many people and dogs are in it that are not hard, strong and driven. These dogs are built by good training and good handling. 

Good training is always clear, fair and appropriate to the dog in front of you. 



> Your training methods are NOT necessary for the training of a companion. OP's dog isn't an IPO dog. She doesn't want to train for the same things you're training for. And if she uses your advice of a swift prong correction every time her dog gets excited to see someone, her dog is going to become even more reactive than she is currently.


We all train for the same thing. We all want a happy and obedient dog. Rainbows and cookies does not always get it done. 



> I think you're new on the forum, and you really need to take a step back and think about the advice you give here. You're not talking to people at your IPO club with high drive, hard dogs. You're talking to people who have companions of varying temperaments, and you're giving advice that could be downright dangerous. For instance, you're suggesting a prong collar, but you make no mention of how to fit a prong collar. So what happens when someone reads that, puts a too-loose prong collar low on their dogs neck, harshly corrects and collapses the dog's trachea because of what you've suggested here?


It would be as difficult to collapse a trachea on a dog with a low fitting prong as it would be a low fitting martingale since both collars are limited slip. Your statement indicates complete lack of knowledge about prong collars and how they work. Stick to what you know.. because you do not know this.

A full choke collar you can collapse a trachea. Loose fitted prong typically just does not have much effect. 



> I think many people are not nearly as R+ as they say they are on this forum. However, R+ is the safest advice to give in this setting, along with 'hire a professional'. Because R+ is never going to collapse a trachea, or traumatize a dog. It takes great skill to use R+ effectively, but ineffective R+ isn't dangerous. Ineffective or poorly applied P+ IS dangerous. And people who suggest it in an online setting without even being able to see the dog and trainer in question are irresponsible and negligent.


If you have a few really good dogs with drive and confidence and that dog may learn from R+ but at some point that dog will need clear boundaries. 

Without them, that dog will think there are none. When that dog is about 5 years old that dog will be uncontrollable and even dangerous. That dog will have been made that way by the R+ training and lack of correction at an age when it was effective and understandable. 

Now the owner wants to fix it. It is too late. The dog is PTS and the R+ trainers wring their hands in despair stating the dog was "crazy."

No. It was a great dog that could have done anything at all, including being a companion, if someone had only explained "No is a complete sentence" when the dog was young. 

And THAT is heartbreaking about R+ only training. 

Training must be appropriate to the dog.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

News flash! Feeding dogs treats, reinforcing appropriate behavior and not punishing them will turn them into horribly behaved dangerous beasts who have to be euthanized while much hand wringing is done! The horror, oh the horror!

Okay, in reality - you suggested that I stick to what I know. I used to train with P+. I know what it can do. I know how to apply it. I know how to deliver punishment in a timely and effective way. And I realize, through the power of trial and error, and education, and research, that none of that is necessary. 

Side note: An inappropriately loose prong (for instance, a prong that's two sizes too large for the dog because the person wants to buy the biggest, scariest looking one available) with too much chain and too many prong links removed does not have a limited slip, and therefore CAN collapse a trachea. Just as easily as a chain. Or a poorly fitted martingale. 

You clearly know nothing about R+ or how to appropriately administer it. How could you? Have you ever tried it? You're throwing out some bullcrap old wives tales about how it ruins dogs and turns them into disobedient monsters. 

Your advice has crossed the threshold of useless into the domain of overblown, exaggerated, uninformed lunacy.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

3GSD4IPO said:


> If you have a few really good dogs with drive and confidence and that dog may learn from R+ but at some point that dog will need clear boundaries.
> 
> Without them, that dog will think there are none. When that dog is about 5 years old that dog will be uncontrollable and even dangerous. That dog will have been made that way by the R+ training and lack of correction at an age when it was effective and understandable.
> 
> ...


Huh, you really don't know much about learning theory or training without using pain. Eschewing prongs, e-collar, and leash corrections does not mean a dog has no boundaries and is out of control. But, training without pain takes more thought, planning, and reflection than yanking on a leash.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> Right now she only goes on school nights - right now that's only Wed. She's there all day and I pick her up on the way to school. I don't have time to walk her before her 6 pm class and taking a lab puppy that's been in a crate all day is bad news bears. She acts even nuttier.


Hmm, there goes my theory that it is over-tiring/over-stressing her by too frequent visits.

For one incident, I'd probably chalk it up to dogs being weird sometimes. Sometimes two unrelated things combine; for example, she sees a dog that maybe pushes her around a little at the same time that she gets a static shock from an entry rug (just a random example) and her brain goes "eek!" because "new, weird, how to react?" My dog Eva for example seems to think everything is more worrisome when there is a rain or snow event. I dunno if its a visual thing or a barometric pressure/other physical thing but there is a definite correlation between rain/snow/ice and her being worried/nervous 

If she continues to slink to the floor and try to follow you out, then I'd say it warrants more consideration. Any chance they have webcams set up?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

3GSD4IPO said:


> Without them, that dog will think there are none. When that dog is about 5 years old that dog will be uncontrollable and even dangerous. That dog will have been made that way by the R+ training and lack of correction at an age when it was effective and understandable.


I can assure you, my dog who is now 5 is definitely neither uncontrollable nor dangerous. I train without using corrections, and have even done behaviour modification (stop chasing cats) without correcting my dog.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I can assure you, my dog who is now 5 is definitely neither uncontrollable nor dangerous. I train without using corrections, and have even done behaviour modification (stop chasing cats) without correcting my dog.


Luna's just biding her time. One day you're going to offer her a cookie and she's going to say "screw you" and tear your hand off. And it will be your fault, because you never correct or punish her!


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

> Huh, you really don't know much about learning theory or training without using pain. Eschewing prongs, e-collar, and leash corrections does not mean a dog has no boundaries and is out of control. But, training without pain takes more thought, planning, and reflection than yanking on a leash.


You did not READ my posts. Of course there are dogs who do not need anything strong than a change in voice tone. I have one. I said this. She learned to work because I had an excellent training decoy who could teach her to work in prey drive instead of defense drive (most people do not know the difference between prey drive, hunt drive, defense drive, pack drive and fight drive). 

Then there are other dogs that need more of various levels depending on the dog. 

I also said (again, you did not READ) that a correction is delivered with preparation for reward the instant the dog focuses on you. 

Teaching a new task is all positive. You teach them how first. When you get how, you get competancy with consistancy and reward.. eventually you add duration (where needed) and intermittant reward and then you string tasks together using a bridge with reward imtermittently and randomly. 

Once a task is learned, you introduce "have to" with correction when the task is not done and the dog clearly knows what is expected. This is training routine. The big mistake I see made is correcting a dog that does not know what is required so the correction is confusing OR delivered at the wrong time. I also see a lot of rewards given for performing incorrectly which reinforces "doing it wrong." 

Meanwhile I (currently) have two very different dogs (a soft, unconfident, worried, nervy dog with limited prey drive and a ton of hunt drive and pack drive and a confident, dog with more defense drive than I like, adequate prey drive, lots of hunt drive but less pack drive than I like). BOTH dogs are highly trained, happy and responsive and titled (in something) (are yours?). 

These two dogs are never loose together (will not open the door to a bitch fight and Ivwant their focus on me). I can down either dog in the middle of a crowd and they will stay put until released. Both can be reliably worked off leash around anything or anyone (and the confident dog can be a bit sharp). Both WANT to work. 

Oh but wait... I don't know learning theory... how can I possibly train a dog??
Meanwhile my dogs are well trained. 

Maybe a little less concern about the academics of the quadrants of learning theory and discussion thereof and a little more time spent reading dogs, understanding dogs and getting results training dogs should be considered. 

One is TALKING about the work. The other is actually DOING the work and (dare I say it) getting results...


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

3GSD4IPO said:


> One is TALKING about the work. The other is actually DOING the work and (dare I say it) getting results...


We're here TALKING about the work because this is a forum, meant for CONVERSATION and ADVICE. 

Perhaps you should do less talking on the forum and more activity away from it if you're going to disparage people for using this forum for what it's meant to be used for?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

3GSD4IPO said:


> (I am going to get slammed for this I am sure, but I know of what I speak here because I have had a dog or two like this):
> It also means having a clear negative marker when she is wrong and an associated correction. In the latter, do not nag her. Be very clear and quick and then move on. I use "NO!" followed by a prong collar correction with enough force to truly get her attention (this requires a slack leash to deliver with a sudden and swift uptake, or yank, followed by an immediate release and praise for what you want..


Well, you may know of what you SPEAK, but I'm not so sure you know of what you DO. 

A prong collar's primary function is to abate leash pulling via -P, vaguely similar to that of a head halter; it's not really meant to deliver "a sudden and swift uptake, or yank" to serve as a conventional correction. In my opinion, doing so would constitute misuse of the tool. 

Oh, and by the way. I'm pretty sure a person doesn't have to have titles on their dog to fully understand learning theory. Although, I believe I can take credit for both achievements myself. Just so you know.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

> A prong collar's primary function is to abate leash pulling via -P, vaguely similar to that of a head halter; it's not really meant to deliver "a sudden and swift uptake, or yank" to serve as a conventional correction. In my opinion, doing so would constitute misuse of the tool


You are very wrong. 

When training a dog, using a prong, the strength of the correction comes from a loose leash and a quick uptake by the trainer. The force of the "yank" is what must be guaged. Too little is nagging and ineffective and desensitizes the dog (very similar to repeating commands). Too much can cause an issue in some very soft dogs, but usually is still effective (just next time use less!). A prong collar correction is very personal and it clearly comes fom the trainer. 

It is RARELY used to "only" train loose leash walking. Honest! 

In fact, when used for loose leash walk training you should get that loose leash with no more than three corrections. Yes. Three. Separate. Incidents. Each is delivered as the dog starts to forge ahead on its own totally ignoring the hapless person at the far end of the leash. More than three needed? Not delivered with enough meaning. Less than three is better yet. The object? Get the dog to always think about that handler and leash when on leash. 

I have seen a prong used to increase drive (a lengthy discussion). Most often it is used to return focus to the handler see above about the loose leash) but it should never be used with a steady pull. No collar should be used to just pull the dog in training. A prong is used to deliver a quick, clear correction, get the focus, then reward the focus with twice the energy used to correct and move on.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

I've gotten some advice on P+ from other trainers. I haven't used it bc I'm not experienced but I've read everything. Everything I read said the dog is given swift corrections with the prong collar. And that the collar sits up high on the neck close to the ears. One article specifically said that it's not used to let the dog pull against. I wouldn't go this path without a trainer. 

I called a vet's office to board Winnie and made a reservation. Then wanted to throw up. I hate the idea of her being in a run with a chain link fence. She'll think she's back at the shelter. And on Christmas!  I wanted my dog with me on Christmas opening her stocking and getting her toys. She loves to shred paper so I know she'd love to destroy the mess on Christmas morning. Ugh. This isn't how it was supposed to be.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

3GSD4IPO said:


> It is RARELY used to "only" train loose leash walking. Honest!


I don't think it's any secret that prongs are often misused.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> I've gotten some advice on P+ from other trainers. I haven't used it bc I'm not experienced but I've read everything. Everything I read said the dog is given swift corrections with the prong collar. And that the collar sits up high on the neck close to the ears. One article specifically said that it's not used to let the dog pull against. I wouldn't go this path without a trainer.
> 
> I called a vet's office to board Winnie and made a reservation. Then wanted to throw up. I hate the idea of her being in a run with a chain link fence. She'll think she's back at the shelter. And on Christmas!  I wanted my dog with me on Christmas opening her stocking and getting her toys. She loves to shred paper so I know she'd love to destroy the mess on Christmas morning. Ugh. This isn't how it was supposed to be.


Have Christmas with her on another day. Decorate, put on Christmas music if that's your thing, make cookies for you and for Winnie (there are recipes which taste good to humans and are safe for dogs like pumpkin peanut butter cookies), and let her shred the wrapping paper.

Also, as hard as it is on you, it is good to have at least one experience boarding and know of a boarding facility that can be used in an emergency. 
You never know when a dog will need to have surgery for example and stay overnight at a vet clinic. My dog Chester had not been boarded or kenneled since I got him in 2009 from a local humane society and this spring he had to spend 2 nights in boarding at the vet's before/after his knee surgery. It was hard on him but important and I think it might have helped a little if he'd had a night of boarding when he wasn't in pain and stressed from surgery. 
In the event of a natural disaster for example, few emergency shelters accept pets but often boarding kennels around a region will offer reduced rates to displaced dogs and such. Or if you as the owner end up in hospital, the dog may need to be boarded.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

3GSD4IPO said:


> You are very wrong.


 Seriously ???

Here's a quote from, well, I'll call him one of the premier, longest-standing aversive style trainers out there and a staunch advocate of correction collars.



> Don’t take the dog to a dog park and give the level of correction you have been using. Rather *take the dog for a walk and let it self-correct by pulling into the leash*.
> 
> As a general rule, prong collars are great for stopping dogs from pulling and dragging the handler down the street on walks.


https://leerburg.com/prongcollaruse.htm


Here are a couple of links to videos from another popular, so-called expert on prong collars. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85r03U5WPV8#t=469.6591678

Watch and listen closely now. Note how it is used ..'gently' .. to teach the dog to give in to pressure, on the dog's own accord, strictly for the purpose of loose leash walking.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

FWIW both my dogs are rescues and they still loooove their boarding kennel. They get all excited when they're going there. I think for some dogs it is a fun experience, even if they miss their person.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

3GSD4IPO said:


> You are very wrong.


 Seriously ???

Here's a quote from, well, I'll call him one of the premier, longest-standing aversive style trainers out there and a staunch advocate of correction collars.



> Don’t take the dog to a dog park and give the level of correction you have been using. Rather *take the dog for a walk and let it self-correct by pulling into the leash*.
> 
> As a general rule, prong collars are great for stopping dogs from pulling and dragging the handler down the street on walks.


https://leerburg.com/prongcollaruse.htm



Here are a couple of links to videos from another popular, so-called expert on prong collars. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85r03U5WPV8#t=469.6591678

Watch and listen closely now. Note how it is used .. 'gently' .. to teach the dog to give in to pressure, on the dog's own accord, strictly for the purpose of loose leash walking.




ireth0 said:


> I don't think it's any secret that prongs are often misused.


^ VERY much this.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I dunno. I looked up Leerburg's site and he recommends yanking on a prong. Quote from link above: "The right way to give a leash correction is to POP the leash"

I also stumbled across their "dominant dog collar" which is designed to choke a dog out without the handler exerting much effort. And then they say it's only for "serious aggression" but then recommend using it for dogs that bark at other dogs on walks. And their FAQs are full of questions that basically boil down to "how can I hurt my dog as much as possible without exerting myself?" so now I'm depressed . Note to self: don't look that kind of thing up. People are horrible.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I dunno. I looked up Leerburg's site and he recommends yanking on a prong. Quote from link above: "The right way to give a leash correction is to POP the leash"
> 
> I also stumbled across their "dominant dog collar" which is designed to choke a dog out without the handler exerting much effort. And then they say it's only for "serious aggression" but then recommend using it for dogs that bark at other dogs on walks. And their FAQs are full of questions that basically boil down to "how can I hurt my dog as much as possible without exerting myself?" so now I'm depressed . Note to self: don't look that kind of thing up. People are horrible.


Nobody ever said Ed was a genius.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Willowy said:


> I dunno. I looked up Leerburg's site and he recommends yanking on a prong. Quote from link above: "The right way to give a leash correction is to POP the leash"
> 
> I also stumbled across their "dominant dog collar" which is designed to choke a dog out without the handler exerting much effort. And then they say it's only for "serious aggression" but then recommend using it for dogs that bark at other dogs on walks. And their FAQs are full of questions that basically boil down to "how can I hurt my dog as much as possible without exerting myself?" so now I'm depressed . Note to self: don't look that kind of thing up. People are horrible.


It's really awful, isn't it? There was a poster somewhere else who constantly recommended Leerburg's training videos and methods to people, and I got so burnt out from constantly arguing that P+ isn't necessary and R+ isn't all rainbow and cookies with him. 

While we all have our different methods on this community, I find this group in general to be very R+ and helpful, and that's the reason I've stuck around. I am very discouraged that a P+ advocate is active here and has become a distraction from the OP receiving help on multiple threads.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

I have never watched a Leerburg video in my life.  I have not watched these nor do I intend to. I do not promote Leerburg.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

This topic does make me curious - how do people juggle new babies with difficult puppies like Winnie? I don't have kids yet but I probably will during Winnie's lifetime. If she's not any better then I don't see how it would ever feasibly work. So how do people do it? As it stands right now I wouldn't even let a young child PET her. Much less allow her any interaction with a fragile baby. She has giant mastiff paws and she loves to slap and then dig her claws in and scrape down your body. All while probably sadistically laughing in her dog brain. It's lovely.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

BTW while I do not subscribe, watch or promote Leerburg the comment above about popping the leash to give a correction is right. The leash must be slack. 

What was left out is the follow up really good marker and reward for the dog re-focusing on the handler.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Morgan84 said:


> This topic does make me curious - how do people juggle new babies with difficult puppies like Winnie? I don't have kids yet but I probably will during Winnie's lifetime. If she's not any better then I don't see how it would ever feasibly work. So how do people do it? As it stands right now I wouldn't even let a young child PET her. Much less allow her any interaction with a fragile baby. She has giant mastiff paws and she loves to slap and then dig her claws in and scrape down your body. All while probably sadistically laughing in her dog brain. It's lovely.


She very likely will get better as she matures. My over enthusiastic dog is very good with little ones - even my "scared of dogs" niece started to love her after a half hour or so because she was so gentle. Still, when they were together, Katie (my dog) was leashed, I (or my husband) was right there supervising, ensuring that my nieces weren't too rough and that Katie wasn't too excited or uncomfortable.

For kids and dogs, there are a few organizations that specialize in teaching people to keep everyone safe. Family Paws, Stop the 77, and Doggone Safe are a few. Management is key, as are _active_ supervision and separation as needed. Many people don't allow any interaction between dog and baby / young child. They see each other between barriers or the dog is always leashed in the presence of the baby, but there is no contact until the child is older. It depends a lot on the dog, the parents, and the child.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> This topic does make me curious - how do people juggle new babies with difficult puppies like Winnie? I don't have kids yet but I probably will during Winnie's lifetime. If she's not any better then I don't see how it would ever feasibly work. So how do people do it? As it stands right now I wouldn't even let a young child PET her. Much less allow her any interaction with a fragile baby. She has giant mastiff paws and she loves to slap and then dig her claws in and scrape down your body. All while probably sadistically laughing in her dog brain. It's lovely.


Most people on this forum, myself included, don't recommend puppies or adolescents, especially of large/giant breed dogs, for families who either have young children or infants, or families who may have them in the near future. 

It's basically like having two toddlers at once, one of whom is 75+ lbs, kind of obnoxious and may or may not poop on the floor.

To add: It CAN be done, but I don't find it to be an ideal situation for either the children or the dogs involved.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

3GSD4IPO said:


> You did not READ my posts. Of course there are dogs who do not need anything strong than a change in voice tone. I have one. I said this. She learned to work because I had an excellent training decoy who could teach her to work in prey drive instead of defense drive (most people do not know the difference between prey drive, hunt drive, defense drive, pack drive and fight drive).
> 
> Then there are other dogs that need more of various levels depending on the dog.
> 
> ...


Please don't insult my intelligence. Of course I read - and understood - your comments. I'm simply saying that teaching "have to" doesn't need to involve pain, intimidation, or fear which you seem to imply and if you don't know how to train without those tools you don't understand learning theory or how force-free / rewards-based training works.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

I'm stressed thinking of juggling Winnie with my sisters new baby and she lives 5 hours away! Having to board her everytime I go visit or when I'm at my parents and the baby is there. It's stressful to have a dog that can't be fully integrated in your life. And it breaks my heart that I have a dog that can't be part of my family. Sad for myself and for her. I feel like she deserves that. All dogs do. I've had her over six months and aside from doubling her weight - I don't see much difference in her.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

everyone can tit for tat about training methods forever.... if everyone goes back and re reads all the OP's responses, and the dogs changes in behaviors both of them all are over the place lots of layers of baggage on both and it shows in the results of where they are right now (*right now*) Yall both need a break...... that is why I recommended you finding a suitable boarding facility so you could go be happy enjoying your family (*feel normal*).. and your pup could get a break as well not having to worry about not being perfect. There is such a thing as over handling... tunnel vision training, little ant hill turns into a mountain with no relief in sight. what stands out to me and is most telling... is your statement *that if you could control and trust your dog * you need a break and your dog will benefit from it too.... step back, reset regroup restart when your both fresh..

honestly your tired and frustrated and so is your dog to both not know which way is up or down. Both of yall have layers of baggage at this point and even if you did apply the right training your not going to get the response because your at the point of saturation that nothing seems like it helps because the response is the same............ and you think it doesn't work and nothing works... think about it.... Go home be with your family, laugh enjoy the moment for you... find a suitable boarding facility..... 

My first job was a boarding facility I started in the short time wing.. had dogs from a couple of hours, over night, not more then 3 days.. indoor outdoor kennel run... food/water kennel kept cleaned... day person and night person to watch the dogs.. find a kennel near your sisters and come by and take your dog out for a walk..... .. regroup...


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Morgan84 said:


> I'm stressed thinking of juggling Winnie with my sisters new baby and she lives 5 hours away! Having to board her everytime I go visit or when I'm at my parents and the baby is there. It's stressful to have a dog that can't be fully integrated in your life. And it breaks my heart that I have a dog that can't be part of my family. Sad for myself and for her. I feel like she deserves that. All dogs do. I've had her over six months and aside from doubling her weight - I don't see much difference in her.


I really think you're giving up too quickly. You've only had her a short time, she didn't have a solid start, and she's at an age where she's going to be her worst. Keep doing what you're doing, have patience and realistic expectations, and I'm sure that this time next year, you and Winnie will be enjoying the holidays with your family.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

> I'm stressed thinking of juggling Winnie with my sisters new baby and she lives 5 hours away! Having to board her everytime I go visit or when I'm at my parents and the baby is there. It's stressful to have a dog that can't be fully integrated in your life. And it breaks my heart that I have a dog that can't be part of my family. Sad for myself and for her. I feel like she deserves that. All dogs do. I've had her over six months and aside from doubling her weight - I don't see much difference in her.


The one thing suggested in your posts was what your Dad offered. The dog responds well to your Dad and his method and training model. You saw this. 

Why not take him up on his offer? At this point when you are thinking of quitting, you really have nothing to lose. Leave the dog with him a month. He seems to have the dog's respect and the dog likes the structure he provides. 

Beats quitting. JMO.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

cookieface said:


> I really think you're giving up too quickly. You've only had her a short time, she didn't have a solid start, and she's at an age where she's going to be her worst. Keep doing what you're doing, have patience and realistic expectations, and I'm sure that this time next year, you and Winnie will be enjoying the holidays with your family.


If I'd given up then she'd be gone. But each time I've been pushed to that point and went to pull the trigger - she rallies back and does something to give me hope. I've mentioned this in another thread but she bloodied my grandmas arm twice. Once the skin literally shredded. The second time she did it while leashed but still within striking distance. So I really can't foresee ever trusting her around my grandma again. And bc of the incidents with my grandma - trusting her around young kids would be hard.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

3GSD4IPO said:


> The one thing suggested in your posts was what your Dad offered. The dog responds well to your Dad and his method and training model. You saw this.
> 
> Why not take him up on his offer? At this point when you are thinking of quitting, you really have nothing to lose. Leave the dog with him a month. He seems to have the dog's respect and the dog likes the structure he provides.
> 
> Beats quitting. JMO.


Who said anything about quitting? I feel defeated and stressed but honestly this isn't the worst it's been. I was far more overwhelmed when I first got her. I at least know how to manage her behavior in most circumstances. Which really isn't super comforting bc it's not fixing it. But still. 

And my dad would likely hit her. He hasn't yet but he's alluded to the fact that she needs consequences. Well, he's flat out said it. He mocks me all the time saying her only consequence is not getting a hot dog but she doesn't care bc she knows another is coming soon. I mean, she really doesn't have any consequences. I ignore or redirect most negative behaviors and reward positive. He thinks I'm ridiculous.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> I'm stressed thinking of juggling Winnie with my sisters new baby and she lives 5 hours away! Having to board her everytime I go visit or when I'm at my parents and the baby is there. It's stressful to have a dog that can't be fully integrated in your life. And it breaks my heart that I have a dog that can't be part of my family. Sad for myself and for her. I feel like she deserves that. All dogs do. I've had her over six months and aside from doubling her weight - I don't see much difference in her.


The difference of a dog at 14 months old and having been with you for 6 months versus a dog who is a little over 2 years old and having been with you for ~18 months (next Christmas is the example) is HIGHLY likely to be night and day. Maturity, time, training, exposure to new situations etc all have a cumulative effect. Good experiences, solid consistent training, and simply mental maturity tend to build towards a dog that can be handled more easily and in more situations. 

Babies are easy with dogs (if you aren't in charge of both) as you just keep them separate and the baby has no ability to crawl or walk to reach the dog. Toddlers are rough. They can run and grab and are harder to keep an eye on when wrangling both kid and dog. BUT!! by the time your sister's kid is walking, it is very likely Winnie will have a lot more training and self-control under her belt so to speak (under her collar?). I would not however suggest turning her over to your Dad for a month.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> The difference of a dog at 14 months old and having been with you for 6 months versus a dog who is a little over 2 years old and having been with you for ~18 months (next Christmas is the example) is HIGHLY likely to be night and day. Maturity, time, training, exposure to new situations etc all have a cumulative effect. Good experiences, solid consistent training, and simply mental maturity tend to build towards a dog that can be handled more easily and in more situations.
> 
> Babies are easy with dogs (if you aren't in charge of both) as you just keep them separate and the baby has no ability to crawl or walk to reach the dog. Toddlers are rough. They can run and grab and are harder to keep an eye on when wrangling both kid and dog. BUT!! by the time your sister's kid is walking, it is very likely Winnie will have a lot more training and self-control under her belt so to speak (under her collar?). I would not however suggest turning her over to your Dad for a month.


Yeah giving her to my dad wasn't ever an option. I don't want to break Winnie or dull her spirit. She has a beautiful spirit. She loves life. Even tho she's nutty - she absolutely loves everyone. It's just when you're an 85 lb Lab/Mastiff puppy your "Hi let's be best friends" bark sounds a lot like "I'm going to eat your face off". And she can't handle herself in exciting situations where she makes new friends so she acts super ridiculous and no one wants to be around her.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Morgan84 said:


> Yeah giving her to my dad wasn't ever an option. I don't want to break Winnie or dull her spirit. She has a beautiful spirit. She loves life. Even tho she's nutty - she absolutely loves everyone. It's just when you're an 85 lb Lab/Mastiff puppy your "Hi let's be best friends" bark sounds a lot like "I'm going to eat your face off". And she can't handle herself in exciting situations where she makes new friends so she acts super ridiculous and no one wants to be around her.


I understand. One of my former fosters, Luna, was only about 40 lbs but as a pit bull, she came with a built in fear factor for some people. She was dog reactive, wildly ill mannered (she had been crated 23 hours a day before she came to me so zero social interaction basically), and sweet as can be. Loved people but sometimes expressed that love by leaping up and smashing into you. I had her about 2-3 months when Christmas rolled around and I took her and Chester to my parents house. My aunt walked in wearing reindeer antlers and Luna lost her mind in a sense of "WHOA, WHAT IS THAT! MUST BARK". Scared my poor aunt who was already fearful of "pit bulls"

But--- with some quiet time out for Luna, removing the reindeer antler head-dress for my aunt, some acclimating time while harnessed up and being required to sit by me, some attention from new humans who were comfortable with her -- by the end of the evening, Luna was laying on the floor by my aunt's feet and my aunt was randomly reaching down to scratch her ears. 
(Oh, and just to be clear, it wasn't like one evening of peace reverted her ways totally or anything; just that each introduction and time to adjust and time to calm down built up into a far more well behaved, happy, still a bit nutty dog)

It can be very one step forward, two steps back feeling sometimes but I think it is more like one step each way for awhile and then it shifts to 2 steps forward and 1 step back if that makes sense.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> If I'd given up then she'd be gone. But each time I've been pushed to that point and went to pull the trigger - she rallies back and does something to give me hope. I've mentioned this in another thread but she bloodied my grandmas arm twice. Once the skin literally shredded. The second time she did it while leashed but still within striking distance. So I really can't foresee ever trusting her around my grandma again. And bc of the incidents with my grandma - trusting her around young kids would be hard.


Just have to mention that occasional bruising and bleeding is part and parcel of owning big dogs, especially big adolescent dogs who are happy and exuberant. I've had multiple bloody noses, black eyes, bloody lips, bleeding scratches (I actually got one of those this morning), my piercings have been yanked partway out, etc. Other large/giant breed owners will tell you the same. I know people who have had broken fingers, broken tones, and even a lacerated spleen. All from accidents. 

The thing is, the dogs don't (and Winnie didn't, in the case with your grandma) MEAN to cause harm. She doesn't understand she's big and can hurt people. You absolutely should manage her and watch her carefully and keep her away from anyone she might *accidentally* harm, but you can't keep holding these accidents with your grandma against her. One of my dogs (Zephyr), scratched my mom's cornea so badly when she was watching him for me that she had to wear an eye patch for a week and a half. Zephyr didn't mean to do that, and I've never held it against him, I've just closely managed him and made sure that I taught my mom the proper way to not get her face stepped on.

She'll slow down. When she hits the 24 month mark, especially, I think you'll notice a big change.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> Just have to mention that occasional bruising and bleeding is part and parcel of owning big dogs, especially big adolescent dogs who are happy and exuberant. I've had multiple bloody noses, black eyes, bloody lips, bleeding scratches (I actually got one of those this morning), my piercings have been yanked partway out, etc. Other large/giant breed owners will tell you the same. I know people who have had broken fingers, broken tones, and even a lacerated spleen. All from accidents.
> 
> The thing is, the dogs don't (and Winnie didn't, in the case with your grandma) MEAN to cause harm. She doesn't understand she's big and can hurt people. You absolutely should manage her and watch her carefully and keep her away from anyone she might *accidentally* harm, but you can't keep holding these accidents with your grandma against her. One of my dogs (Zephyr), scratched my mom's cornea so badly when she was watching him for me that she had to wear an eye patch for a week and a half. Zephyr didn't mean to do that, and I've never held it against him, I've just closely managed him and made sure that I taught my mom the proper way to not get her face stepped on.
> 
> She'll slow down. When she hits the 24 month mark, especially, I think you'll notice a big change.


I can't tell if she means to or not. Our first training said she did. He said that she senses vulnerability in my grandma and in children and wants to over power them. He wasn't our trainer long bc he said a lot of things I didn't agree with - but that stuck in my mind. What if she DOES want to hurt her. 

Either way, it's not that I'm necessarily holding a grudge but I can't foresee Winnie ever being able to get close to my grandma again. I don't know how I could trust her to not flip out. The last time she was seemingly calm, leashed, and out of nowhere swiped her and shredded her skin. And I said this in my other post but my grandma lives 3 hours from us. She's never been to my new house bc of Winnie and she lives too far away to do any productive training w her. But I do hate that she can't visit.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> I can't tell if she means to or not. Our first training said she did. He said that she senses vulnerability in my grandma and in children and wants to over power them. He wasn't our trainer long bc he said a lot of things I didn't agree with - but that stuck in my mind. What if she DOES want to hurt her.
> 
> Either way, it's not that I'm necessarily holding a grudge but I can't foresee Winnie ever being able to get close to my grandma again. I don't know how I could trust her to not flip out. The last time she was seemingly calm, leashed, and out of nowhere swiped her and shredded her skin. And I said this in my other post but my grandma lives 3 hours from us. She's never been to my new house bc of Winnie and she lives too far away to do any productive training w her. But I do hate that she can't visit.


If a dog WANTS to hurt someone, they bite, they don't scratch. Using paws is a playful/excited behavior. I'm glad you left that first trainer, he sounds like an utter moron.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

UPDATE 

Since I had so many replies to this I thought I would post an update. Winnie was able to go to Christmas bc my sister hadn't had my niece at that point. The first day she did great. She loved shredding the paper Christmas morning. She wasn't overly excited or a spazz. She didn't destroy anything and she was adorable opening up her presents. It was a really sweet day with her. But that didn't last. The second day we were there Winnie jumped on my sisters lap and all of her 80 lbs landed on her stomach. It was scary. My mom was very reactive toward Winnie and screamed/kicked at her. Which just added to my stress bc I was concerned Winnie hurt my sister and then upset that my mom got physical with Winnie. Had my dad been in the room then it would've gotten very physical but he wasn't. I don't know why she jumped on her. She was laying down chewing on her bone and then she just jumped on her lap. 

So yeah. I'm pretty sure everyone hates Winnie (they haven't said that) but she's definitely persona non grata around my family for right now. I boarded her when my niece was born. And I'm sure that will be what has to happen for the foreseeable future - for all visits and holidays. Had she jumped on my sister while she was holding my niece it could've seriously injured her. 

I feel at some point I'm going to have to make a decision about Winnie. And I cry as I write this bc now the thought of giving her away breaks my heart. I've had her eight months now. But having a dog that constantly has to be separated is not only not fun - it's expensive. But for now, we started our 4th obedience class. There are no major holidays or reasons to go home for the next couple of months. And we'll just continue to work on her impulsivity. But I don't see myself ever being able to trust her. Which sucks.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Morgan84 said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Since I had so many replies to this I thought I would post an update. Winnie was able to go to Christmas bc my sister hadn't had my niece at that point. The first day she did great. She loved shredding the paper Christmas morning. She wasn't overly excited or a spazz. She didn't destroy anything and she was adorable opening up her presents. It was a really sweet day with her. But that didn't last. The second day we were there Winnie jumped on my sisters lap and all of her 80 lbs landed on her stomach. It was scary. My mom was very reactive toward Winnie and screamed/kicked at her. Which just added to my stress bc I was concerned Winnie hurt my sister and then upset that my mom got physical with Winnie. Had my dad been in the room then it would've gotten very physical but he wasn't. I don't know why she jumped on her. She was laying down chewing on her bone and then she just jumped on her lap.
> 
> ...


This dog is what, 1 year or less old? Labs are notorious for being brats until they are like 3. Jumping up on someone's lap is not at all unusual, and I highly doubt she was doing it with any attempt to harm. Sure, she may need a little managing because she's huge and she thinks she's still a puppy. I have known few adolescent dogs who are perfectly well behaved. My Aussie/Collie caught my sister in law's face with his teeth jumping up in excitement, knocked over my niece, punched her in the face with his nose, tore my hand open playing tug, scratched the crap out of my husband's arm, punched some guy in the gut, and probably would have knocked over tons of people had he not been on a leash. 

Was he inappropriate? Yeah, sure. Am I going to worry about and think I'll never have a dog I can trust to calmly greet guests and not knock children over? Nope, because he's a 1.5 years old. He's improved greatly from the 5 month old I brought home, but he has a bit of maturing to do. Give your dog time, and until then have her drag a leash when company is over and give her time to learn.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Oh she for sure wasn't doing it to hurt her. She has a bad habit of jumping in people's laps while they're sitting. She'll launch herself through the air and land all 80 lbs in my lap. I'm not pregnant, tho. And yes, she's 15 months. I keep wondering why labs are consistently the top rated dog. Hahaha. I keep waiting for her to show me. But for right now, she's a butthole. Less of a butthole than the 8 month old I brought home. But still a butthole.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Labs are the top rated family dog/first time owner dog by people who don't know much about dogs. As far as temperament, they're unlikely to have aggression or instability issues, but other than that, they're very rambunctious and known for being a slow-maturing, hard-headed breed. Expect her exuberance and impulse control issues to extend well into her early adulthood.

I still feel like your expectations of her are way too high, and she is behaving very much like a normal adolescent Lab. If you knew she had a habit of launching herself into people's laps, why did you let her off leash around your pregnant sister while she was sitting? This is very much a management issue, and your dog isn't to blame at all for this situation. Much of owning a large adolescent dog is predicting misbehaviors and preventing them, not reacting to them after they've occurred.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

The jumping in laps has always been to me. And we extinguished the behavior for a long time. It recently started again but in different form. Before it was a way to initiate play or get me to stand up. Now it's more of a "I want to sit with (on top of) you". There has always been an antecedent and consistent behavior prior to jumping in laps and I can normally predict when it's going to happen. Not the case this time. She literally went from calmly chewing on her bone in the floor to jumping before anyone could blink. 

And I realize adolescents take management. For the first part of the day she was tethered to me with her head halter on. After she calmed then I took it off. Whenever she became too rambunctious then she was tethered again. Outside of keeping her crated or tethered the entire time I did my best to manage her behaviors. Obviously I put too much trust in her to not act like a jackass. And there's no way I can completely manage or prevent her behaviors because she can be unpredictable and my crystal ball is broken. Kudos to you if you have that ability. So for now I don't know any realistic way to keep everyone safe except for boarding her during visits when I go home.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Morgan84 said:


> The jumping in laps has always been to me. And we extinguished the behavior for a long time. It recently started again but in different form. Before it was a way to initiate play or get me to stand up. Now it's more of a "I want to sit with (on top of) you". There has always been an antecedent and consistent behavior prior to jumping in laps and I can normally predict when it's going to happen. Not the case this time. She literally went from calmly chewing on her bone in the floor to jumping before anyone could blink.
> 
> And I realize adolescents take management. For the first part of the day she was tethered to me with her head halter on. After she calmed then I took it off. Whenever she became too rambunctious then she was tethered again. Outside of keeping her crated or tethered the entire time I did my best to manage her behaviors. Obviously I put too much trust in her to not act like a jackass. And there's no way I can completely manage or prevent her behaviors because she can be unpredictable and my crystal ball is broken. Kudos to you if you have that ability. So for now I don't know any realistic way to keep everyone safe except for boarding her during visits when I go home.


Well, she is predictable in that you know she is unpredictable. If you have to keep elderly and pregnant people safe, then you have to do what you have to do. Really, if your parents resort to kicking and screaming at the dog for bad behavior, I wouldn't bring the dog anyway. I have a pretty good feeling that she'll grow out of her rambunctious behavior. I kept my dog on a leash with guests over the whole time while he was in THAT STAGE and used time outs liberally when he couldn't behave. I also practiced his calm behavior on people who weren't going to be severely injured if he jumped on them, and I paid them for their help with booze and food. 

So, if you boarding your dog is the only way you feel everybody is safe and it feels good to you, then do that. Missing social events and having to make arrangements for your animal's care if you can't bring her along is something you signed up for when you brought a puppy home. While she's growing up and learning, manage her. Leash, crate, whatever. You absolutely can prevent those behaviors, it's just inconvenient and annoying. She's so young, she simply does not have the emotional maturity to control herself well yet.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

To be clear - my parents do not get physical with my dogs for bad behavior. I have an 11 year old dog that they've never touched. This was an extreme circumstance that could have proven to be dangerous. My sister was very pregnant and had an 80 pound blow to the stomach. I get the fear and anger.

And I don't feel "good" about boarding her. I don't completely trust other people with my dogs. Things happen and I don't like not having control of the situation. But if the alternative is never seeing my niece as she grows up or family then it's a no brainer. That's why I said I may have a difficult choice to make down the road.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

you need to make better choices for Winnie. The only consequence of you not making the right choices for Winnie is Winnie making mistakes and you making the difficult choice for (what) down the road. All the choices you have made you were thinking about what you need, what you want. When it's about what Winnie needs, what Winnie needs from you. Winnie needed to be boarded, Winnie needed to be restricted, crate, baby gate or on a lead. You don't like not having control, but you don't take control when and where your needed to. You know Winnie and you leave it to chance and some days you win and some days you loose. Why are you not jumping up and down for joy for the best days she had at your stay. (should prove that Winnie is a dog that is successful). Why is the only thing that matters is the one moment that Winnie was being Winnie making a mistake that could cost her what for her future. Where were you. You can't be a by stander to your own dog, you need to be active in assisting Winnie. That is a full time job your first job. especially if your going to be unforgiving for Winnie making mistakes. The whole tragic episode needed better choices in the moment and the moments leading to where you ended up. You have the whole future planned out and doomed... it's a waste of your energy and emotions. You need to stay in the moment and be there making the right choices where Winnie needs you now.. So she can learn what she should be doing in the moment. Feel for you, but it is in your control to make better choices for Winnie instead of having to deal with the aftermath of wrong choices.. .


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

PatriciafromCO said:


> you need to make better choices for Winnie. The only consequence of you not making the right choices for Winnie is Winnie making mistakes and you making the difficult choice for (what) down the road. All the choices you have made you were thinking about what you need, what you want. When it's about what Winnie needs, what Winnie needs from you. Winnie needed to be boarded, Winnie needed to be restricted, crate, baby gate or on a lead. You don't like not having control, but you don't take control when and where your needed to. You know Winnie and you leave it to chance and some days you win and some days you loose. Why are you not jumping up and down for joy for the best days she had at your stay. (should prove that Winnie is a dog that is successful). Why is the only thing that matters is the one moment that Winnie was being Winnie making a mistake that could cost her what for her future. Where were you. You can't be a by stander to your own dog, you need to be active in assisting Winnie. That is a full time job your first job. especially if your going to be unforgiving for Winnie making mistakes. The whole tragic episode needed better choices in the moment and the moments leading to where you ended up. You have the whole future planned out and doomed... it's a waste of your energy and emotions. You need to stay in the moment and be there making the right choices where Winnie needs you now.. So she can learn what she should be doing in the moment. Feel for you, but it is in your control to make better choices for Winnie instead of having to deal with the aftermath of wrong choices.. .



The whole "make better choices for Winnie" is too vague for me to understand. It reminds me of when people on another board would tell me "be a leader". When Winnie jumped on my sister I was right there. Winnie was at my feet and my sister was beside me. Three other people were there as well. It happened before anyone could react. She literally went from laying down to in the lap very quickly. 

And if you all can micromanage life to get the behaviors out of your dog then fabulous. Outside of tethering her to me (it still would've happened tethered) the entire time there's not much else I could've done. If I did that then how do you suggest I fade away the restrictions in the future? Sounds hard because if she screws up during that time of "chance" I feel I will be labeled as someone not having control of the situation. I can't control all situations. It's just not realistic. 

And I'm not unforgiving in Winnies mistakes. I wasn't angry with her when she did that. I was absolutely scared for the situation but I didn't yell at her or react nasty. In fact, I left my family a day earlier than I was supposed to because of Winnie. I had the option to keep her crated but that wasn't fair to her, so we went home. I've spent countless money on trainers to help me help Winnie. I board Winnie not only to keep everyone else safe but also keep Winnie safe. I've sacrificed a lot for her just in the short time I've had her so don't act as if I put my own needs before those of Winnie. Or that I'm selfish in the instances that I do think of me. A lot of time, energy, money, and resources has gone into making Winnie the best dog she can be.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

> And I'm not unforgiving in Winnies mistakes. I wasn't angry with her when she did that.


You are very unforgiving of her mistakes. I have never seen someone come back to the forum and repeatedly say 'I don't think it's going to work, I might rehome her' about a dog they've had for as long as you've had Winnie.

My dogs make mistakes a lot. I just don't react the same way, or have a doom and gloom outlook, or think 'well, this means they might not work out and they'll need a new home'. One of my Danes recently knocked over my grandmother because he was excited to see her. Fortunately she's fine, she laughed it off, life goes on. The other one recently scratched the cornea of my mother's eye so badly while they were playing that she needed to wear an eye patch for a week. Again, life goes on. My dogs sit on me, step on me at night, keep me awake, are sometimes total a-holes to each other, sometimes don't listen to me, etc. Not ONCE have I thought 'huh, this isn't looking good, I'm not sure what the future holds'.

Owning large, young dogs takes mental fortitude, tenacity, and willpower. You will have *really* bad days. Guaranteed. And the normal reaction to bad days is 'okay, how do I prevent this in the future', not 'I might rehome the dog'. You rarely talk here about what you like about Winnie. All we hear about is how much of a burden she is to you. Maybe that's because you use this forum to complain and vent your frustrations and you don't use it to compliment your dog on good behaviors. Or maybe it's because you're simply not cut out for owning an adolescent large breed dog with very minor (and normal) behavioral issues.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> You are very unforgiving of her mistakes. I have never seen someone come back to the forum and repeatedly say 'I don't think it's going to work, I might rehome her' about a dog they've had for as long as you've had Winnie.
> 
> My dogs make mistakes a lot. I just don't react the same way, or have a doom and gloom outlook, or think 'well, this means they might not work out and they'll need a new home'. One of my Danes recently knocked over my grandmother because he was excited to see her. Fortunately she's fine, she laughed it off, life goes on. The other one recently scratched the cornea of my mother's eye so badly while they were playing that she needed to wear an eye patch for a week. Again, life goes on. My dogs sit on me, step on me at night, keep me awake, are sometimes total a-holes to each other, sometimes don't listen to me, etc. Not ONCE have I thought 'huh, this isn't looking good, I'm not sure what the future holds'.
> 
> Owning large, young dogs takes mental fortitude, tenacity, and willpower. You will have *really* bad days. Guaranteed. And the normal reaction to bad days is 'okay, how do I prevent this in the future', not 'I might rehome the dog'. You rarely talk here about what you like about Winnie. All we hear about is how much of a burden she is to you. Maybe that's because you use this forum to complain and vent your frustrations and you don't use it to compliment your dog on good behaviors. Or maybe it's because you're simply not cut out for owning an adolescent large breed dog with very minor (and normal) behavioral issues.


Harsh, but reading through the thread, yeah, this is true. Everyone here is been advising you, OP, that Winnie's behavior is absolutely normal for a large breed adolescent dog who is barely more than a baby. Every time someone offers advice about how you can make this situation better, you offer an excuse of why that isn't going to work perfectly for you. Nothing is going to work perfectly. Having a young dog that requires training is absolutely inconvenient. You have to make sacrifices, financially, emotionally, physically, and socially. 

But there's light at the end of the tunnel. What you are experiencing is temporary. You have to decide if you want to stick it out for 1-2 more years, or if you want to accept that owning a large, rambunctious, puppy-like dog is not right for you.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

When Winnie was calmly laying at your feet you didn't take control by limiting movement she could do. Keeping a leash on her and having it under your feet so she couldn't get to her feet is what you needed to do. If you aren't able to anticipate what she is going to do then control her with a leash at all times. A dog can change behavior in a blink of an eye so even though you were right there the fact that you couldn't have been observing her like you do in formal training sessions means you need to be managing her physically rather than with cues. During training sessions you can work on not jumping up but it's not prudent to consider controlling her with cues when you cannot have 100% of your attention on her like during a visit with family.


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## Morgan84 (Nov 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> You are very unforgiving of her mistakes. I have never seen someone come back to the forum and repeatedly say 'I don't think it's going to work, I might rehome her' about a dog they've had for as long as you've had Winnie.
> 
> My dogs make mistakes a lot. I just don't react the same way, or have a doom and gloom outlook, or think 'well, this means they might not work out and they'll need a new home'. One of my Danes recently knocked over my grandmother because he was excited to see her. Fortunately she's fine, she laughed it off, life goes on. The other one recently scratched the cornea of my mother's eye so badly while they were playing that she needed to wear an eye patch for a week. Again, life goes on. My dogs sit on me, step on me at night, keep me awake, are sometimes total a-holes to each other, sometimes don't listen to me, etc. Not ONCE have I thought 'huh, this isn't looking good, I'm not sure what the future holds'.
> 
> Owning large, young dogs takes mental fortitude, tenacity, and willpower. You will have *really* bad days. Guaranteed. And the normal reaction to bad days is 'okay, how do I prevent this in the future', not 'I might rehome the dog'. You rarely talk here about what you like about Winnie. All we hear about is how much of a burden she is to you. Maybe that's because you use this forum to complain and vent your frustrations and you don't use it to compliment your dog on good behaviors. Or maybe it's because you're simply not cut out for owning an adolescent large breed dog with very minor (and normal) behavioral issues.


I'm probably not cut for it. Obviously because I struggle so much. No one has ever said that to me. I'm surrounded by trainers and friends and family who are constantly telling me that I'm doing more for Winnie than typical owners. But I continue to struggle. And now that you have brought it up - it's true. It's probably best that I look into rehoming her now than continue to convince myself that this is something I'm capable of. My biggest fear when I got Winnie and realized her level of nuttiness was failing her - and failing in general. Which is why I hired CPDT almost immediately. Cos I was in way over my head. But failure is part of life and I just need to accept it instead of keeping to fight against something that I'm clearly not cut out for.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Morgan84 said:


> I'm probably not cut for it. Obviously because I struggle so much. No one has ever said that to me. I'm surrounded by trainers and friends and family who are constantly telling me that I'm doing more for Winnie than typical owners. But I continue to struggle. And now that you have brought it up - it's true. It's probably best that I look into rehoming her now than continue to convince myself that this is something I'm capable of. My biggest fear when I got Winnie and realized her level of nuttiness was failing her - and failing in general. Which is why I hired CPDT almost immediately. Cos I was in way over my head. But failure is part of life and I just need to accept it instead of keeping to fight against something that I'm clearly not cut out for.


So here's the thing. "Failing" and "not cut out for it" are two entirely different things. I don't think you're failing Winnie - it sounds like you've gone above and beyond and put way more effort into her than many other people would. You have worked through her issues, you've kept at it, you've tried to make it work in every way you know how. That is absolutely NOT failing. 

"Not cut out for it" just means that the potential future rewards don't outweigh the current struggles for you. It is a-okay to realize that while you are trying, you aren't happy and you don't see a 'light at the end of the tunnel'. In fact, by realizing that, you are doing what many people do fail to do for their own dogs, which is to understand when a situation isn't working and making a hard choice in order to make the situation better.

Struggling also isn't indicative of "not cut out for it". LOTS of us struggle for our dogs, but we're able to conceptualize that our dogs will mature and the issues we have now will become non-issues in the future. My biggest point of concern in your relationship with Winnie is when you say 'I don't think I'll ever be able to trust her' and a few other statements that have indicated to me that you're not able to see past the present issues to what the future can (and probably will) hold. 

Rehoming Winnie, if you decide to go that route, is not a failure. It's you doing what is best for your mental health and your happiness if you truly are as overwhelmed and burdened as you communicate that you are on the forum. And it's also doing what is best for Winnie. That is in no way a failure.

She WILL get better. She WILL calm down. She WILL develop impulse control. I can't be 100% certain, having never met her, but I'd guess that she WILL turn into a really good dog a few years down the road. If you can stick this out for a while, I think she will eventually be exactly the dog you want. But that 'eventually' word is the key. And honestly, as far as SHE goes, I think she's being treated well, and far better than many other companion dogs are out there today. I'm not at all concerned for Winnie's well-being should you decide to stick this out and keep her. I think you are, and can continue to be, a good home for her. But at what cost to your own mental health? That is the real question, and that's a question only you can answer.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

*The whole "make better choices for Winnie" is too vague for me to understand.*

"""""""""" Winnie needed to be boarded, Winnie needed to be restricted, crate, baby gate or on a lead. You don't like not having control, but you don't take control when and where your needed to. """""

what detail area did I leave out that you didn't understand????

It doesn't matter how many trainers you hire, and it will not matter how much money you spend...


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

For heaven's sake. Use a leash, use a crate, use some situational awareness, and wait for the dog to finish growing up. They're all horrible as adolescents. Pretty much every social mammal is horrible as an adolescent. Manage the dog and wait it out. The catastrophizing is frankly over-the-top.


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## craftyfaith (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree that what you're describing sounds like totally normal adolescent dog behavior. My pup is an 84lb Rottie mix who is currently 1.5 years old. He is overly excited and lacks impulse control when truly tested. Since I've gotten him he has bruised me, scratched me, knocked guests over, and on one instance dragged me through the mud at 3am trying to catch a raccoon. I continue to work on impulse control, capturing calm, and keep him out of situations where I know he won't be safe. I think at this point I am just starting to see that he's getting a little calmer and is starting to make better choices. It has taken a lot of work and positive reinforcement to get here and we're nowhere near where I want him to be obedience wise in the long term but it's part of the process of owning a dog.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The Question: Why a Lab? 
Those of us who love Labs continue with this breed, b/c at 3yo - 5yo the rambunctious puppy mellows and becomes a valued companion that has learned to adapt and anticipate to our personalities. In the last few years of my previous dog's life, I no longer had to explicitly train him - he learned to do what I showed him that I wanted. Other dogs will do this, also. And, I believe that a distinctive trait of a Lab is that they forgive our mistakes, where other dogs may sulk or have hurt feelings.

On the other hand, a Lab puppy is a fuzzy piranha, a needle-toothed vampire, and the spawn of the devil, as you've seen. Where I'd recommend an adult Lab to most new owners [depending on requirements], I usually don't suggest a Lab puppy to new owners ... w/o a lot of guidance.

If you use a prong collar, note that it may only work for about a month, then the pup will learn that it doesn't hurt. I don't like prong or choke collars, b/c of the potential damage, and potential misuse. However, I've seen correction-based trainers that I respect, who can pop the collar quickly and painlessly at the correct time to be effective and nonthreatening. I don't have that type of timing, and I don't believe that most people do, either.

Your pup is currently training you, giving you a chance to respond and anticipate.
1. Teach him Bite inhibition.
2. Trim his claws.
3. Teach him to Sit on cue.
4. Keep him tethered to you, or in a crate, when you can't watch him, or when he might get out of control.
5. Walk him for 30min. twice a day.
6. Find a playmate about the same size and about the same energy [energy level is more important than size], and let them wrestle for about an hour, once a week, in an enclosed area. The play and the walks will help to drain some of his energy.

I currently have a 2yo, 75Lb. Lab/GSD mix, and I use a 2 foot leather leash, b/c he may be too enthusiastic around people ... but in the past 6 mos, I've seen progress towards mellowing....


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