# Severe Dog Aggression :(



## Dillabou (Sep 26, 2013)

Hello everyone!

I currently have three dogs: Reptar, 3 year old Miniature Pinscher. Lilo, 6 month old Shiba Inu, Loki, a 4 month old Border Collie/Great Pyrenees mix.

We've had Reptar (male) since he was a baby. We got Lilo (female) about 4 months ago. She is very independent and very stubborn, but she'll always run to the door and kiss the heck out of you. She just likes her personal space. She has never had an aggression problem; when the young neighbor kids came over to play, they'd wrestle her to the ground, grab her (typical young children behavior, you know), and she would have a blast. But since we have gotten Loki (female), things have quickly spiraled downward...

Now, Lilo and Reptar absolutely adore each other, always have. There is no problem there. When we first brought Loki home, there was some aggression coming from Lilo. One second they'd be playing together, next they would be fighting. But the number of fights seemed to be getting smaller and smaller. This was within the first 2 or so weeks. Then, something changed in Lilo completely out of the blue. She now attacks Loki every chance she gets, and she gets vicious. Lilo stays in her crate most of the time (her choice) and just growls and pouts all day long. And Lilo is ALWAYS the one to initiate the fight. You can just see the anger in her eyes every time she looks at Loki. My boyfriend and I have suffered a few scratches and bites just trying to separate the two. Loki will fight back, but other than that she is oblivious. Sometimes, Lilo will even attack her when her back is turned.

We have signed up for obedience training, but it is not for another week. We had Lilo fixed about two days ago, hoping she would calm back down to her normal self, but she hasn't. She is miserable all the time. My boyfriend and I have had dogs before, but this is the first time we've ever had any sort of dog aggression. The trainer told us while we wait, that we should not use the crate for punishment. But we don't know what else to do, because if we leave Lilo out she'll just attack Loki over and over again.

So my question is, has anyone dealt with this before? If so, any tips? Even small things just to get us through the week. I love both my girls, and I hate that there is so much tension...


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

My instant response to this is going to be to advise you to rehome Loki while she's still little and cute. Raising two puppies together is very rough work, and having two females in the same household can spark same-sex aggression. It's a common thing in dogs and is a prominent issue with females.

However, if you absolutely will not consider that, for now, keep them as separate as possible. Don't leave them unsupervised, and, if you have to, look into crate and rotate systems. Obedience training may hel a little, but I could suggest calling in a behaviorist to help you.

Be sure that whatever behaviorist and/or trainer you get is one who uses positive methods, no choking or prong collars or hitting or 'alpha' stuff.


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## TRDmom (Mar 3, 2013)

Hello! :wave: Shibas are known to be temperamental and can be dog-aggressive. Many people I have spoken with that have a Shiba try to find a second dog that is easy-going and can put up with the Shiba's attitude. For more Shiba specific advice, check out NihonKen.org. There is a lot of great information there and owners that can help!


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

TRDmom said:


> Hello! :wave: Shibas are known to be temperamental and can be dog-aggressive. Many people I have spoken with that have a Shiba try to find a second dog that is easy-going and can put up with the Shiba's attitude. For more Shiba specific advice, check out NihonKen.org. There is a lot of great information there and owners that can help!


 I agree with this


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## Machiavelli's (Oct 16, 2013)

Hello Dillabou, 

I have a Min Pin, 4 year old male named Titan, and also a 9 year old Great Pyrenees male named Caesar. Great Pyrenees are really protective over the things they consider "theirs". They were bred to protect livestock or any other animal that are smaller than they are and consider them their family. I do not know too much about Border Collies but I know they are a livestock/herding as well. I mentioned my Min Pin, Titan, because Caesar usually follows him around and Titan can only take so much of him and attempts to bite him. I can tell that Caesar thinks Titan is part of _his_ family and _his_ to protect simply because he is small and looks like he needs protecting.

Great Pyrenees are pretty intelligent, and because of this they can be really stubborn and think their judgement is always right. If a Shiba Inu is anything like a Great Pyrenees, it explains why Lilo is aggressive towards Loki. Maybe Lilo thinks Reptar is "hers" and Loki thinks Reptar is hers. I also find that Caesar doesn't really pay attention to warnings (when Titan growls) and does his own thing, and maybe Loki's Great Pyrenees side shows that as well. If you think it's has something to do with them thinking Reptar is their's or Loki thinking Lilo is hers and visa versa then I'd establish that no one is anyone but yours lol. 

A Great Pyrenees thinks they're the s*** and no one can tell them anything and Lilo probably doesn't like that (no one does lol). I'd put their crates next to each other so Lilo can get use to Liko and feel safe at the same time, but I would still supervise just in case it's too much for Lilo and let her out of her crate to prevent unwanted stress. You could also alternate who gets to be in the crate, but make sure the other dog is still in the same room - if not it wont teach either dog that they need to get along. If this doesn't work I'd go to obedience training like the others have mentioned or contact a trainer specifically for aggression. Hopefully everything works out between the two!


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

^^^agreed with the observations.
2 stubborn breeds of the same sex is usually not a good mix... I read that too.
I did looked into Shiba Inus when I saw "hachi" the movie being Akitas are also a Japanese breed.

I own a great Pyrenees myself and Roman is a very stubborn and sensitive at the same time.
He was quite aloof when he is a puppy... Being he is the last boy of two left with a working LGD mom.
True to working background.. not much human contacts or exposure till us his family.

Now he is simply great with everyone and dogs too...
Next door dachshund is always encroaching on Roman's territory wanting to "play" and he dont seem to mind.
Even my mom says he is a lazy guard dog... Because his home tuff is set up for him to be very safe.. even from the world unless a human war breaks out or something similar.

So... He would be ok with another dog so long as he never has to be the "serious" leader(he's a goof ball).
Since now we the parents " lead".

I believe leadership is important if one wants a harmonious family...
Can't have the "juveniles" lead now can we??? 
Don't give the dogs the reasons to jostle for leadership positions is what I say.
No one will like a household run by the dogs I dont think.

But that's my opinion... And I do bark louder than Roman if I have to if it keeps him a "juvenile" forever.
An innocent Roman is too cute and biddable.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have two females that don't get along, they are separated unless I am out in the yard (the older female gets the small yard in front because she is the instigator ... Josefina just is a good finisher so she always looks like the bad guy). The older female picks and picks at Josefina until she gets sick of it and fights back.

No amount of leadership will help when two dogs decide not to get along anymore.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have two females that don't get along, they are separated unless I am out in the yard (the older female gets the small yard in front because she is the instigator ... Josefina just is a good finisher so she always looks like the bad guy). The older female picks and picks at Josefina until she gets sick of it and fights back.
> 
> No amount of leadership will help when two dogs decide not to get along anymore.


Which I agree.. especially when that dogs' "respect" for that leaders' capacity to protect it is ever questioned.
(Like even fightings between the dogs... Why some household dogs get along while others don't... My father in law raised a total of 20+ dogs... Some 5-6 at one time not including puppies... And he is a great leader of the pack)

A leader is and should be "in control" and when dogs are allowed to fight till no control can control them (hurt one another till grudge is held) equates a loss of control of that leadership.

Why many great Pyrenees trainings suggested to "protect" that dog at all cost especially during its puppyhood.
Reasons even within the dogs' own world.

P.S. watching extreme pet homes, the guy with a custom home for his pony said one thing interesting...
Along the line of talking in the pony's own language which makes total sense to me...
Like when going to visit another culture in another country... You break the cultures' barrier better and get accustomed more if you can understand and speak that culture's own language.
I totally agree with that.

Great read...
"Don't dump the dog" by Randy Grim... Logistic reasoning about leadership, yet anti-CM style.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

separation and rotation doesn't have to be approached as a form of punishment,, it should be the way you live so it's normal to have the skills to wait your turn in a multiple dog household.. respect crate time and baby gate time.. And your daily schedule revolves around that rotation for the dogs between their wait their turn time and spending time loose with the family in the house.. It's nothing personal on your girls, they are pups, they don't have the maturity skills, so they act like sibling rivalries and act out like dogs their ages at each other. Step in and help them learn how to live in your household. and they will continue to go through phases as they grow. Control the activities, opportunities, set rules on how they eat, sleep, training for individuals, group training Put order in to their daily lives that they can follow them. Focus on what they are suppose to be doing and not focused on what the other dogs are doing. They need to master working skills with you for going into each stage as they mature. Understanding how the different breeds you have tick/what is important to them that you should focus on teaching skills that will help them and you. You control the environment. To get your pack set for the long haul,, you have to grow with them for learning


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

No no I didn't mean to sound like I was punishing our older female dog, it's just that she is not as active as Josefina and Josefina loves the two male dogs ... ESP her "brother" buddy, and he would be equally sad if she were to go  he was very sad when she disappeared. 

She is happy over there, she can sleep and doesn't have to deal with the social stress of the other dogs. It is better then coming home to one or more injured/ dead dogs .

Trust me, these fights are highly likely to escalate, it's best to separate unless supervised.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No no I didn't mean to sound like I was punishing our older female dog, it's just that she is not as active as Josefina and Josefina loves the two male dogs ... ESP her "brother" buddy, and he would be equally sad if she were to go  he was very sad when she disappeared.
> 
> She is happy over there, she can sleep and doesn't have to deal with the social stress of the other dogs. It is better then coming home to one or more injured/ dead dogs .
> 
> Trust me, these fights are highly likely to escalate, it's best to separate unless supervised.


 OwnedbyACDs,, my post wasn't in reference to anything in your post... I thought the OP mentioned he didn't want to use the crate as punishment... sorry if you miss took what I said..


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> OwnedbyACDs,, my post wasn't in reference to anything in your post... I thought the OP mentioned he didn't want to use the crate as punishment... sorry if you miss took what I said..


Oh, ok LOL. I was thinking that people thought I was using separation as punishment, when I am not (at least not intentionally) although they can all be out together in the big yard when I am out there, as soon as I have to go inside, the older female goes in the front yard (both are fenced) before there is a problem.

No, I agree separation should never be approached as punishment ... although I am not fond of the older female (nothing to do with how she is with Josefina ... her personality and mine just don't mesh) I don't hold it against her that she doesn't get along with Josefina, I mean there are some people that I just don't get along with. its not their fault and its not my fault, we just don't click. dogs are that way too, once they decide they don't like one another, its really not smart to keep them together unintended ... its just asking for a problem.

also like I said, this is not a leadership (or lack thereof) thing, no matter what anyone says. its just like say, at work and there is this one co worker you just. Don't. Like. and your boss forces you to work on a project together in an effort to make you two "play nice". probably all it will end up doing is making the two of you resent each other more. 

The same is true with dogs, if you force two dogs who don't get along to coexist, they will most likely end up resenting each other more then if you just separated them.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

But... even in the human world... like dogs there are pack leaders.
Like your boss.
Good boss or the bad ones.

Good ones (has various control over its employees) use money, bonuses, promotion to lure a harmonious relationship out of the two.
Bad ones will just fire you if you aren't a team player (can't be controlled anymore).
No???

Good leadership is important anywhere.
Especially when representing a species (humans etc.) or show of strength of (say a country)... like a great strong president.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Dillabou - Sorry you have to deal with all of this. It must be very stressful for you. Separating them isn't punishment; it's smart management. Give the crated dog a kong or special chew toy so it doesn't seem like punishment. How is obedience training going? Has your trainer given you any ideas?

A good leader knows how and when to manage a situation so that everyone is safe. If your dogs truly don't like each other, no amount of leadership will change their feelings.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

when you have a pack that needs assistance you have to commit to their needs, even when it means extra work for ourselves.. The strongest case of puppy maturing too strong into my group was Sirius.. Brute of a strong headed puppy "dream dog" after 6 months old he was pushing on my adult males,, Sirius's hole focus in life was getting into my adult males faces over everything,, and nothing ... Tolerance from my males would only go so far.. I loved everthing about Sirius wouldn't want him to loose what he had... he was just using it for the wrong things lol lol ... So I separated them it was important for Sirius to have """" his stuff """" his space"""" I put him in the indoor kennels in the barn and set up a daily schedule for him .. That was all his stuff,, and one on one time for me and him to continue building our working relationship skills... 3 months goes by... try to bring Sirius back into the house.. first second he seen the other males, he focused in on them.. so back out Sirius went lol ... Continue training adding group training with selective dogs.. really hone in Sirius training skills working with me,, some house time using the baby gate system during the day but letting Sirius go back to the kennel to his own space and own stuff at night... at 6 or 7 months he was so much focused on him self and not what my adult males were doing... Spent another month on baby gate, crate rotation work on group team skills and that was it Sirius had matured through that stage and was just fine with being confident strong individual and with everyone and so so extremely tolerant to new male pups growing up in the house.. Sirius was a top pick to be my helper as a leader dog to a new pup... Ra my 15 year old male,, Sirius was Ra's leader dog for him as a pup even though Ra attempted to hump Sirius and Sirius gave me this look "like I better get over here and fix the idiot" lol lol ... 

It was a 8 months commitment to help Sirius pass through a maturing phase and keep the strong dog you have, but give them skills to handle his strengths.. Sirius might of never been able to be loose in the group in the house,, I would of been ok with that because I loved Sirius so much I would of done anything to make his life right for him.. And I would of continued to keeping him safe the group safe and working with Sirius that we be an awesome team... Sirius was still today the one pup who I wondered if he would be able to live with the other males... Always happy he did. but you dont know until you stop the opportunity, keep everyone safe, and work teaching them skills. Definety NOT a quick fix situation... but once you through it and keep up your environment, and group skill training it last a life time for them


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> But... even in the human world... like dogs there are pack leaders.
> Like your boss.
> Good boss or the bad ones.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matte how benevolent of a leader you are, if two dogs don't get along then they just ... Don't. Now I am not talking about harmless "arguing" dogs typically go through, I will usually let them work that out for themselves. It's mostly al noise anyway. Because I believe if you (general you) do TOO much mediating then they never learn how to defuse situations on their own. 

But Josefina and Yumi don't just have a squabble here and there ... They have had a couple of battles that have drawn blood, so yes, for their safety they are now separated unless someone is outside watching them. I am not saying that the OP will have to resort to "crate and rotate" or if they have to that it would be forever. The dog is a teenager, she may grow out this stuff. Only time will tell.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> It doesn't matte how benevolent of a leader you are, if two dogs don't get along then they just ... Don't. Now I am not talking about harmless "arguing" dogs typically go through, I will usually let them work that out for themselves. It's mostly al noise anyway. Because I believe if you (general you) do TOO much mediating then they never learn how to defuse situations on their own.
> 
> But Josefina and Yumi don't just have a squabble here and there ... They have had a couple of battles that have drawn blood, so yes, for their safety they are now separated unless someone is outside watching them. I am not saying that the OP will have to resort to "crate and rotate" or if they have to that it would be forever. The dog is a teenager, she may grow out this stuff. Only time will tell.


While I do understand it could happen (2 dogs totally don't get along), I haven't heard it happen in any of my FIL's pack (his is free roaming all times "outside" dogs) nor my sister's pack of Australian silkies (4 of them) with my dog (1/2 GSD, 1/2 Dobie)... 5 total free roaming inside my old home (cement floors makes everything a breeze to claen) especially at night. All above mentioned... mix of females & males... all unfixed (breeding purposes).

Note: mine & sis's dogs are pre-1990s Asia not USA. 
FIL's he breeds them because his hunting buddies & farm buddies all wanted bloodline from his brood. 
"If" why you don't spay the dogs question is raised... BTW Roman is fixed per contract honored.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> While I do understand it could happen (2 dogs totally don't get along), I haven't heard it happen in any of my FIL's pack (his is free roaming all times "outside" dogs) nor my sister's pack of Australian silkies (4 of them) with my dog (1/2 GSD, 1/2 Dobie)... 5 total free roaming inside my old home (cement floors makes everything a breeze to claen) especially at night. All above mentioned... mix of females & males... all unfixed (breeding purposes).
> 
> Note: mine & sis's dogs are pre-1990s Asia not USA.
> FIL's he breeds them because his hunting buddies & farm buddies all wanted bloodline from his brood.
> "If" why you don't spay the dogs question is raised... BTW Roman is fixed per contract honored.


So you mix intact females and males? I'm surprised that person hasn't had a fight yet ... Or an unwanted breeding .

"Fixing" animals isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. All mine are fixed now (because they were either female (I always fix females because I can't responsibly keep intact females) but I can responsibly keep intact males, so I may choose to when I get futurepuppy ... At least for the first year of development.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> So you mix intact females and males? I'm surprised that person hasn't had a fight yet ... Or an unwanted breeding .
> 
> "Fixing" animals isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. All mine are fixed now (because they were either female (I always fix females because I can't responsibly keep intact females) but I can responsibly keep intact males, so I may choose to when I get futurepuppy ... At least for the first year of development.


Hope you read the note part.
Those were not modern times... and back in Asia.
Yes, my sister's Silkies are actually meant to breed because they are from champion show lines (contract with the original breeders, as a way of helping the breeders too as we live in a small country and while we have a house... the breeders I believed live in apartments in highrises) and in my country, do fetch top dollars (no money, usually no dogs as pets, and people lean more towards pets with pedigree... street dog populations are controlled by animal controlled.... and our government is obsessed with keeping its streets clean).
Another thing... its not until 1990s and after in my country (not USA) that people become aware that dogs & cats should be fixed to control pet problems.

And plus... I am all for neutering dogs & cats for population control.

Different times folks... a different time.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Cats yes, but spaying and neutering dogs isn't nessessary for population control if the owner is responsible.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Cats yes, but spaying and neutering dogs isn't nessessary for population control if the owner is responsible.


Don't worry. My family and even inlaws are very responsible.:rockon:
None that I know (family & inllaw) ever rehomed their dogs after having them.
(All died at home or at the vet, one on the neighbour's porch)
All have been loved, vetted and treated like family.

Why I am commited to no rehoming any dogs once I have them in my family... good example set by high standards you see...

Even my mommi is a dog lover and has a dog prior to Timothy (called Ah-mad aka ink black in cantonese) a pure breed too given to her dad to pay a debt.
Now that dog is a shop dog and died from poisoning (some kinda light fuse powder hidden in his steak... yah, she used to feed Timothy steak too; errr.. not poisoned of course) from burglers... still lived till pretty old.








^^^See my mommi is not afraid of my big dog and she is a stranger to him (first time with Roman)...
Family of dog lovers.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content








Family of cat lovers... my cat also comes when called, can do tricks.








Bro with his fav. buddy (second time Roman met him)








Brother's first time seeing Roman.

P.S. If you ask my family... how does one love their dogs???
Its all in the food you give them... how good that food is.
(Asian saying, love is "in" the tummy)
My mom is all about "eating too" (great cook) and our dogs are known to be fed sometimes better than many humans (raw steaks).


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I never said you didn't love your animals  not sure where that is coming from


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Good thing it doesn't seem like the OP is going to return since I'm sure the advice they were looking for was how to keep intact animals and pictures of Hueyeats' pets.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Good thing it doesn't seem like the OP is going to return since I'm sure the advice they were looking for was how to keep intact animals and pictures of Hueyeats' pets.


Well some ppl want to keep their pets intact until a certain age, I was thing to give the OP information about crating and rotating and seperation in case they did want to wait to "fix". 

I also wanted to stress that this isn't about "pack leadership" or lack thereof.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Good thing it doesn't seem like the OP is going to return since I'm sure the advice they were looking for was how to keep intact animals and pictures of Hueyeats' pets.


Why not Roman's pics???
Totally applicable.
Its a great example of a well trained behaving dog without severe aggressions at all because it is content, happi in its role as a "juvinile".
Crate free, control collar free, and he is happi content, protected by his parents and have nothing to fear... Noone nor dog to "pick a fight" with him... so no temper.



OwnedbyACDs said:


> Well some ppl want to keep their pets intact until a certain age, I was thing to give the OP information about crating and rotating and seperation in case they did want to wait to "fix".
> 
> I also wanted to stress that this isn't about "pack leadership" or lack thereof.


Crating and rotating may fix things temporary till it gets uncrated again (same with a control collar, crating of course more humane till that dog is abused till it gets bladder problems from over crating)... or it may totally solve the problem.

Pack leadership = acting like that dog's respected leader & parent = talking in the dog's culture and language...

With that respect, that "juvinile" puppy dog has no options but to respect what that leader says.
Still anti-CM if you read Randy Grim's "don't dump the dog" on chapter #9 "Bullies with an Attitude".


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Owned by ACD...

Now just a question since you are so anti-leadership or pet "parent" leadership...

Do you think its more humane to set down rules 

via crate 
(with some dogs being able to hold bladder better than other and I am sensitive to this issue b/c I am prone to UTI, and many already honestly say they crated dogs for 6 - 8 hrs or more and most dogs unlike Roman is not as big as me a human nor Roman at 100+lbs and I know I cannot hold pee for more than 3-4 hours at a time honestly)

via control collars
(you know my vison on that... pain = not earning trust from dogs and I am all about trust training)

OR...
A good leader that the dog trusts with its life???

*Trust* is a key word here.

= Why Roman will follow me, yes, me till the end (never runaway or leave by choice)
Can free roam during walks & home
Gets to go collarfree, aka naked 
(humans do not need to hold / control him by latching unto his collar)

That I can trust him like that even when I play that leadership role.

P.S. Don't you respect your own mommi & daddy???
Did they "lead" & provide for you when you are but a child???

Leadership here also provides the "hunting goods"... = parents who earned the bread & butter to feed that kid.

Intersting how so many so called learned dog people fought it all because of a "study".
Study or studies... my mom says are all lies, funded by companies to sell that product and always comes out with more "studies" b/c older studies are obselete. Like eggs for eg.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I never said I was anti leadership. I said that no amount of leadership would "make" two dogs who don't like each other get along. Lol your posts are always quite long but they never really are relivent to the conversation at hand.

Like I said, it prolly would be best to separate these two dogs for now. Like I said, this may be a teenager thing or it may be a perminant thing ... Now is too soon to tell.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Some dogs just don't like other dogs. And some dogs just don't like specific other dogs. Leadership has nothing to do with it. You can't love two dogs into not killing each other, sometimes management and keeping them separate is the only way. 

Sorry you're dealing with this OP.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Wow a lot of people are going to feel foolish that they didn't know SSA and DA could be cured with benevolent leadership.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Wow a lot of people are going to feel foolish that they didn't know SSA and DA could be cured with benevolent leadership.


I SO needed this thread. And here I thought that separation, vigilance and management were the way to go.

I need to learn to be a benevolent leader and then I can let all my puppies play together!


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

hueyeats 

LOL. Just because your "leadership" works for your dogs in your environment does not mean that will work with other people with different dogs in a different environment 

glad your dog loves you so 


Management is often a reality


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

hueyeats said:


> Why not Roman's pics???
> Totally applicable.
> Its a great example of a well trained behaving dog without severe aggressions at all because it is content, happi in its role as a "juvinile".
> Crate free, control collar free, and he is happi content, protected by his parents and have nothing to fear... Noone nor dog to "pick a fight" with him... so no temper.
> ...


No, it's not. You post photos in threads where they're not relevant in the slightest and here they especially offer nothing to the OP. Why in the world would any one want to see random photos of a dog that is apparently an "example" when they need advice? It's as irrelevant as answering someone's question of say "how do I house break a puppy?" with pictures of my dogs and saying "they're house trained!"


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Wow a lot of people are going to feel foolish that they didn't know SSA and DA could be cured with benevolent leadership.


Silly silly me ... I have been so foolish for so long ... I should just toss Yumi and Josefina out together and "leadership" them into liking each other, YAY! No more "crating and rotating!" Awesome!

*of course I am being sarcastic* xD I would never EVER do that. They are never out together unless I am out there with them. I have learned my lesson after 2 serious fights ... Both of which didn't happen when the dogs were under my care (parents wouldn't listen that they didn't get along and felt bad for them :/) now they are separated when no one is out there.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> No, it's not. You post photos in threads where they're not relevant in the slightest and here they especially offer nothing to the OP. Why in the world would any one want to see random photos of a dog that is apparently an "example" when they need advice? It's as irrelevant as answering someone's question of say "how do I house break a puppy?" with pictures of my dogs and saying "they're house trained!"


So why if that photo that you think has nothing to do with you or the thread should irk you so bad and you know its free speech.
Why is there a connection to you that you needs it mention again.& again if you thought irrelevant??

But bc it gets some reactions from you... For some reasons or other.

Why I say...
When people rehome a dog, usually its truely because they have a problem with that dogs nature... 

I have no problem showing pics on here showing what I thought is great happi pic of my dog.
It's you who had that problem with it.

My comments, honestly my take on.it.
If u do not like it, you can always move on or complain about it repeatedly I do not care.
I will still stand my ground if you like them or not.

Pics don't hurt no body.
You can post your own gooddog pics too and show how trained your dog is.
Tell your story of your views.
I will respectfully read it I promised.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

People. The constitutional right to free speech has absolutely nothing to do with internet messageboards.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

jiml said:


> hueyeats
> 
> LOL. Just because your "leadership" works for your dogs in your environment does not mean that will work with other people with different dogs in a different environment
> 
> ...


Thanks. I do realize different strokes for different folks.
Management was my past career and parenting too.

I am sure some carting may work for some, and others abused and not work...
Same with prong or control collars.

I did think that since that so called "alpha" thing is out and dogs "parent leaders" are in from the new studies of dogs aren't wolves...
That same culture can be easily crossed unto human own culture of parent leadership.

Like I say...
Even human parents never let their children work and bring the bread home (child labor law)...
Or not let that child run and control the house finance...

Parent leader as a dam is to a puppy, as a leader to its pack, as human patents even...
Is something "logical" to think about.

May save one a lot of headaches later.

And you may be right that once that dog or human gained that independence...
There may be no more going back to look for dependency for that parent leader.

But, isn'it always nice to have that parents to fall back on?

So yeah... Leadership may not work for that one dog or two... But if the dogs can't depend on that leadership to provide its needs of say food & water... And if left uncrated, unchained...
I think it may contemplate leaving this pack to join another if its that unhappy.
But again, of course humans will keep it even if against its will sometime..
Why we have hoardings and abuse situations too.

I say there is no escaping that leadership role how ever much one tries.
You provided (hunt) the food, provided the shelter n home (territory), provided a safe den...
Yah, to the dog... You already are the leader originally.

Now if you stop providing all that...
Even the dog that love you most will still at least leave for a while, eat and then come back to say guard the grave or site or people of importance. 
Hachi is a good story to watch.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

hueyeats said:


> So why if that photo that you think has nothing to do with you or the thread should irk you so bad and you know its free speech.
> Why is there a connection to you that you needs it mention again.& again if you thought irrelevant??
> 
> But bc it gets some reactions from you... For some reasons or other.
> ...





sassafras said:


> People. The constitutional right to free speech has absolutely nothing to do with internet messageboards.


What Sass said, but I also have to add that I have no idea what you're saying dude and I have no idea if you understood what I said. I have seen others mention your irrelevant pictures clogging up threads where they quite honestly don't belong. I wouldn't post photos of my dogs in threads like this because they're not only not related in the slightest, but pretty annoying and not helpful to the OP or any one else that may come across this thread. What does rehoming have to do with any thing? What exactly are you standing your ground against? What is this I don't even. 

We have a picture forum for many reasons, mostly being a forum where you can.. post pictures.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

So... That crate and rotate method... Am I right?

Rehoming is a totally cool option too. Especially if you work with a rescue to find her a better home. Perhaps one where she can be the only dog. 

I wish I had pictures of Bae being good. The only photos I cling to are the ones where he is sitting on my torn up bed. I feel that might not be useful here somehow...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> So... That crate and rotate method... Am I right?
> 
> Rehoming is a totally cool option too. Especially if you work with a rescue to find her a better home. Perhaps one where she can be the only dog.
> 
> I wish I had pictures of Bae being good. The only photos I cling to are the ones where he is sitting on my torn up bed. I feel that might not be useful here somehow...


I can relate ... I have a sizable hole in my box spring because of Izze, who I know I'm being crazy but I swear she did it be she says was mad at me for something ... xD


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> What Sass said, but I also have to add that I have no idea what you're saying dude and I have no idea if you understood what I said. I have seen others mention your irrelevant pictures clogging up threads where they quite honestly don't belong. I wouldn't post photos of my dogs in threads like this because they're not only not related in the slightest, but pretty annoying and not helpful to the OP or any one else that may come across this thread. What does rehoming have to do with any thing? What exactly are you standing your ground against? What is this I don't even.
> 
> We have a picture forum for many reasons, mostly being a forum where you can.. post pictures.


I agree that you can do what you will...
Well... So shall I. 
:rockon:
Note: Nowhere did the rules say NO PHOTOS ALLOWED on any forum titles except "Photo forum".
I did not make the rules.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

hueyeats said:


> I agree that you can do what you will...
> Well... So shall I.
> :rockon:
> Note: Nowhere did the rules say NO PHOTOS ALLOWED on any forum titles except "Photo forum".
> I did not make the rules.


Welp, you still don't understand any thing I've said. I can't think of any plainer way to help you understand here so continue posting annoying, unrelated photos and I guess we'll just continue trying to ignore annoying, unrelated photos that have nothing to do with any thing and you continue not getting why people find it annoying.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Welp, you still don't understand any thing I've said. I can't think of any plainer way to help you understand here so continue posting annoying, unrelated photos and I guess we'll just continue trying to ignore annoying, unrelated photos that have nothing to do with any thing and you continue not getting why people find it annoying.


Well... 
then do as your own advise.

Please ignore.

Why don't you do as you preached???
That is not a good example.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Sure, you're right. Sometimes I like to post photos that can be viewed as irrelevant and obnoxious. They happen when I am completely dumbfounded by someone. Here is one now:


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Aheheheheh.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

hueyeats said:


> I agree that you can do what you will...
> Well... So shall I.
> :rockon:
> Note: Nowhere did the rules say NO PHOTOS ALLOWED on any forum titles except "Photo forum".
> I did not make the rules.


Except there ARE rules against thread hijacking, which is what you are doing when you insist on turning an unrelated thread into your own personal picture thread. Cut it out, unless you'd like another time out.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

If the OP ever comes back, or for anyone that stumbles across this thread:

Some dogs do not like some dogs. This is called dog selectivity.

Some dogs do not like any other dogs. This is an example of dog aggression.

You CAN manage these issues. Most of the time, you cannot "train" them out- be it by leadership, control collars, whatever. It would be misleading for me to tell you otherwise, and unsafe for yourself and your dogs.

In these situations, management is key. The level of management you feel able to provide will help to dictate whether or not you should keep both dogs.

It is foolish at best, and downright dangerous at worst, for anyone to suggest that dog selectivity and/or dog aggression can be trained out. In some cases training can assist in masking the behaviors (snapping, growling, biting, ect), but training will NOT change the dog itself.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

VERY well said, Rescued.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Kuma'sMom said:


> VERY well said, Rescued.


Aw thanks! I just got done dredging through homework and is feeling stoopids. That made me feel better 

Also: I am an employee in the animal care department at a local resuce/ shelter. When possible, we house dogs in groups of 2-3 in large rooms, so I have a bit of experience "matching" adult dogs who have never met eachother, and determining who can and cannot be a suitable roomate.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Aw thanks! I just got done dredging through homework and is feeling stoopids. That made me feel better
> 
> Also: I am an employee in the animal care department at a local resuce/ shelter. When possible, we house dogs in groups of 2-3 in large rooms, so I have a bit of experience "matching" adult dogs who have never met eachother, and determining who can and cannot be a suitable roomate.


Yes why is that? Why do some dogs dislike other dogs so much? Why to the resident males here get along with Yumi (the dog in question) but Josefina and Izze (when she was alive) didn't? What IS it about her I wonder?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes why is that? Why do some dogs dislike other dogs so much? Why to the resident males here get along with Yumi (the dog in question) but Josefina and Izze (when she was alive) didn't? What IS it about her I wonder?


I think it's sometimes a female thing. :/ There is a rescue in the area that refuses to place a female rescue into a home with another female because same sex aggression between girls is way more likely. <-- Apparently, anyway.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

illness is defiantly one valid reason,, to make a dog not right to either target other dogs or be the target of other dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Rescued said:


> If the OP ever comes back, or for anyone that stumbles across this thread:
> 
> Some dogs do not like some dogs. This is called dog selectivity.
> 
> ...


Even if they don't come back, their thread could still serve as a discussion platform for dog aggression, same sex aggression and "selective" dog aggression. 

So I guess females can be selective with their own gender too ... I think it has something to do with how Yumi acts more then her gender tho, I just think the boys are more tolerant of it then the girls are. I can't actually put my finger on what it is, but I do know they her mannerisms sometimes even annoy me (also a female xD ).

If I had the money I would love to have a behaviorist come out and observe how the dogs act with each other (again, Yumi and Josefina are NEVER out together unless someone is out there with them) to see if they could exact any insight on why Yumi is a target for doggy hate crimes LOL


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes why is that? Why do some dogs dislike other dogs so much? Why to the resident males here get along with Yumi (the dog in question) but Josefina and Izze (when she was alive) didn't? What IS it about her I wonder?


Things that factor into our decisions before the dogs ever meet (when we are brainstorming who would be good roomates for X dog)

-sex. All are s/n but if a dog is going to be selective, opposite sex pairs often work best.

-size. There's some "rule of halves" and I think its something like if X dog is 50 lbs, he shouldn't be roomies with any dog smaller than 25 lbs, or something like that. This is less to do with the dogs getting along and more as a safety thing in case a fight does break out, I think.

-barrier frustration: dogs with barrier frustration do better with roomates that won't amp them up further and cause them to redirect. If a dog has barrier frustration (all of the rooms have concrete up to chest level, and then windows looking in on two sides) usually a roomate that will totally step back and give the other dog space when someone walks by is the best. Roomates that are easily stressed by barking or are also barrier frustrated usually arent the best pairing.

-Resource guarding: If one dog has dog-related RG behaviors, usually a roomate that is all "yeah, its totally fine if you take that, I'm gonna go lie down over here" is the best bet.

-Play style: Some dogs do really well with the same play style (pits that love to body slam eachother) and some dogs do really awful with the same play style (I want to body slam you, but you BETTER not do it to me!)

EDIT TO ADD: Age is a huge one! We have a number of dogs that are "puppies only" meaning that they only do well as roomates with puppies up to 6ish months. A lot of dogs are tolerant of puppies but not of adults.

those are just a few things that we take into consideration.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think Yumi's problem is that when the dogs play it stresses her out, so she wants to "stop" it because its loud and fast and stressful (for her I guess). When the dogs play she doesn't even try to play, she just gets in there and annoys the other dogs trying to mind their own business. 

So she is separated from the other dogs because she can't play nice.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Things that factor into our decisions before the dogs ever meet (when we are brainstorming who would be good roomates for X dog)
> 
> -sex. All are s/n but if a dog is going to be selective, opposite sex pairs often work best.
> 
> ...


We had a large Staffie mix who was DA and generally unruly except with a few people. However, with puppies he would just lay right down and let them climb all over him. So cute!


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> We had a large Staffie mix who was DA and generally unruly except with a few people. However, with puppies he would just lay right down and let them climb all over him. So cute!


My dog is very much like this too. She's very iffy about adult dogs and would have to take a lot of getting used to... and even then she may not get along. But with puppies it's a whole new story. When I brought Lunetta home, it was the first time I really saw Sydney PLAY with another dog in years.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Most dogs seem to know that puppies have a "puppy license" for at least six months, maybe that's the reason they gir them more leadway.


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