# Dog home security



## Hankscorpio (May 15, 2012)

Is it your dog's job to protect your family and or property?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Hah, not a chance! I know that if someone started messing around with my door or windows, Kuma would growl or bark enough to wake me up, but once they were inside, he'd be their best friend, lol. But that's okay, all I need is enough warning to grab him and get out of the apartment so I can get help, and that much I'm confident he would do.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

No.

I have one dog who thinks it's his job and I'm working very hard to dissuade him of the notion. My dogs MIGHT bark, but I consider it might job to protect them - not the other way around.


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

My dachshund is very good at being an alarm system but I don't think he'd be able to protect me (he's 10 pounds). Wouldn't expect him to.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

I'm not sure what Jewel would do to be honest. She can sense when people are up to no good and growls at them. I think she would definitely be protective of someone trying to hurt me, but don't think she would do much if they were simply robbing the place. I hope to never have to find out.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Yes.... right until someone decides to pet him. Unfortunately, we've inadvertantly reinforced that strangers = exciting. So he barks at people that come to our house until they've pet him an appropriate amount. Anyone who's knowledgeable about dog body language will see the helicopter tail and know right away that he's not a threat.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

If Gally heard a strange noise he would bark but once he saw the person he would go ask for petting. He loves everyone and I'm alright with that.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

They both serve as an excellent alarm system. Would they act as protection? For Alannah, all strangers = new best friends, and for Murphy, all strangers = scary so probably not.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Duke believes it is his job to prevent any human other than the 4 who live here and a short list of "approved guests" from entering our home without one of us inviting them in. I don't actually mind this, he allows guests to enter so long as hubby or I are present to invite them in and I don't exactly want people coming in when I'm not around. He "watches" some people even after they are invited in, I find he is a good judge of character. Remus will notify me that people are here but once they are inside he is fine with them just not overtly friendly. He prefers kids to adults though. I don't know what he would do if we were not home, he isn't a naturally territorial or guarding dog but I do notice he has some protective tendencies towards the children. Freyja would hand over the house to a thief if he would pet her. Dove would bark to wake the dead, I don't know if she would bite or not but she does not like other people. Blue would also bark but she hides behind the bigger dogs.


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## surlys_mom (Jul 5, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Hah, not a chance! I know that if someone started messing around with my door or windows, Kuma would growl or bark enough to wake me up, but once they were inside, he'd be their best friend, lol. But that's okay, all I need is enough warning to grab him and get out of the apartment so I can get help, and that much I'm confident he would do.


Haha totally!


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## JeJo (Jul 29, 2013)

No, I don't consider it my dog's job to protect the family, at least that isn't why I brought her into the fold, but who knows what she would do if it came right down to it. She has yet to be tested, thank God. We live in an old neighborhood and I expect that anything could happen on any given day. I'm thinking that my dog, like many, would pick up on any negative energy, adrenaline or vibes of ill intent that a 'bad guy' would send out and act upon it to some degree, but again, who knows. She is on the soft side so there's a chance she would retreat to her crate, too. *shrug* 

This thread brings a related topic to mind that I have often thought of since getting this larger dog (only 60#, but still). When I take her for a walk in the neighborhood and am asked by strangers if she is "friendly", the truth is that, "Yep, very." but the stranger danger side of my reasoning wants to sternly say, "She reacts and bites when she needs to." That's the paranoid part of me wondering if I/my home are being sized up, though, so I stick with the former admission.


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## Kibasdad (Jan 1, 2009)

It's my job to protect the home and Kibas job to alert me.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

No, it's not their job. They've never been guardy with a person face to face, although they will definitely alert quite loudly to any strangers around the house. That's plenty good enough for me.


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Tula is a Bernese Mountain Dog, her main job is to shed enough hair that is gets into the silverware drawer, so if someone breaks in they will think we are slobs and won't want to take anything from our hairy house.

However, Tula only has one bark and it sounds vicious. She uses the same bark to let you know she is bored and wants to play, she is really happy to see you and to let you know someone is outside and she isn't sure who it is.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

No, Sans doesn't bark at the door even. Not enough people came through it or knocked on it to generalize that knocking or door opening was people coming in. I on occasion just leave the door open and it blows in the wind so she's hardly phased by door sounds. However I have no doubt she'd launch in to a barking/growling spree and would be very uncomfortable if a strange man walked into the house. A girl might be able to get away with it if she was pleasant enough to her.

I do not believe she would bite or attack someone. Maybe if they stressed her out enough, but she's more likely to just end up peeing in fear than biting.
However she does look and sound menacing. My dad's idiot friend has came into our backyard before while she was out and she was circling and barking at him, hair on end, and he was intimidated to the extent he ran out of the yard and she half chased half followed him out still chuffing.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

To protect the home, no. But I don't mind them serving as a deterrent. IMO the best "guard dog" is one that wouldn't bite, but doesn't need to bite.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

It is not really his job,but as a single woman living alone I do feel more secure with a dog. Although I would try to protect the home myself as well,even without a gun.

He might defend me or himself to the point of biting or head butting,He has little tolerance for strange people or other dogs getting angry with me. But otherwise he is very bad at alerting me about people on my property. I think from living at apartments that behavior subsided and from teaching him not to bark when excited. So I have had some stuff stolen out of my yard in the middle of the night. He is overly quiet in the house,doesn't even bark at the door,only on his tie out which I do not do at night will he bark.
Also if he was alone and the intruder was acting friendly,not even nervous than he may not do crap besides annoying them. He also has some intimidation factor by appearance and I can trust him to alert things to me if I`m walking him or outside.
He is weirdly the opposite of a lot of dogs,will get up in a violent acting persons face but sucks at alerting in the house.

With past dogs the Newfie mix had good intimidation,alertness and bluffing to him but would not have it in him to bite or fight off a intruder. While My Malamute/GSD mix was awful for that on pretty much all accounts,very barely territorial,trusted the worst of strangers,hardly barked and never angrily at people and somewhat low intimidation factor because of how fluffy she was. The only way she might scare an intruder is if she ran up to them in excitement.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

The only reason I'm allowed to have dogs is because my dad knows there a detterant to drunks. We live right next to a bar. Both labs have an extremely deep bark and they scare most people away. Mae sounds like a hyena and Mia has a squeak,haha. But Mia wouldn't let anyone past my door. The labs let people they know past but I don't think Bentley would let a stranger in. I will give a short story.

I was going to be away from home one day longer than I thought I would be. I called my neighbor to let my dogs out(all have free roam in the house). She got the labs out but Mia would not let her past the door. She kept aggressively charging her. I ended up calling my cousin and he had a struggle but finally got a slip lead on her. Mia knows my neighbor and is very friendly with her,when I'm around. Oh and through all of this Mae was sleeping on my parents bed :rollseyes:

So in a way all my dog are here for "protection". Mia would probably be the only one to actually do anything to a robber. I wanted dogs for companionship not for protection,it's a just a bonus that came with Mia. She can easily go out and about in public and be fine with people. If I invite people in she is fine with them. But as we found out with my neighbor if I'm not home don't try to walk into my house. She is Leary of strangers. She will let them pet her but be watching there every move. She is an ACD mix so it's kind of expected. 

ETA: with the new pup Caleb it's up in the air how he will be. Being Aussie/Pyrenees I really am anxious to see what his personality will be. At 8 weeks he is really outgoing. He loves everyone. Mia at 8 weeks? She liked her people and that was it. Even though I did socialize her she is still like that. She tolerates strangers petting her. So if he stays it will be interesting to see how he ends up temperament wise. 


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Haha. Annabel believes her job is to get bellyrubs from any person who enters the house. The only thing that might deter a thief would be when she slobbers all over them.


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## Hankscorpio (May 15, 2012)

parus said:


> To protect the home, no. But I don't mind them serving as a deterrent. IMO the best "guard dog" is one that wouldn't bite, but doesn't need to bite.


I agree , I went to college in a *bad* town. Many of the off campus student rental houses were robbed. One friend had a big sweet gsd. Oddly her house was left alone and she slept better than her neighbors...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I am the one that voted yes and I trained them to. 


I look at dogs like this.....
I consider my relationship with my dogs as a pseudo partnership. I may make the rules and call the shots. But each of us is stronger with the other as a partnership. In virtually everything we do. My dogs have capabilities I will never have. And vise versa. 

In short - my dogs watch my back and I watch theirs. 

If someone or something... Attacks me and it is two on one (or maybe three on one) 
If someone or something attacks them, I will readily jump in. 

That being said.... Since I feel this way (I am only talking about me. I am not saying anyone else should. It is a personal choice) I do two things. 

1) I CHOOSE dogs with the right temperament and aptitude to do the job if it came down to it. 

2) I train my dogs, both in physical conditioning and bite work. There is a LOT more than biting involved in fighting a man. Biting will get a dog by a fair amount of the time. But if the bad guy fights back and the dog does not know how to fight a man he or she can get in trouble QUICK!

The dog needs to learn how to use its body, weight, speed and momentum to its advantage.

The dog needs to learn that hands are dangerous and how to get in close, stay in and fight with minimal risk. 

The dog needs to learn that objects in hands are deadly.

And VERY importantly the dog needs to learn the rules and control. You send your dog on someone, or your dog decides it is going on someone, you need to be able to get him off. 


I do not do bite sports, IPO etc. Those are great. But I am not going to teach my dogs to grab on to a man's arm and hang on; giving the bad guy an opportunity to beat, kick, or even stab or shoot my dog. When my dogs go on a man, their goal is to get the man off his feet. It is very important. In a life or death fight, the dog that gets a man off the ground is dang near unbeatable.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

If push came to shove, Merlin would take a piece outta someone for me.

I'm not fond of that trait. He also alarm barks nicely. He's pretty shy naturally but he has given a guy friend of mine a nip for "beating me up". Really, I swatted him and he went to swat back (playfully, of course) and Merlin said, "NOT ON MY WATCH!" He came out of nowhere and nipped him on the arm. Merlin has also stood between me and suspicious strangers on multiple occasions. Darn you men and children, you can't fool Merlin. Evil hooligans. Thankfully, I can call him down usually.

Eren loves strangers but he's also a puppy so.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah my guys are deterrents. Less of a easy target (the big dogs bark makes sneaking around impossible- one only sleeps during the day so he can keep watch at night)....
Noone wandering into my yard "accidently " thats for sure...
Not something we trained them to do, but came naturally and we knew what to expect.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

If there is a newly sprung piece of grass outside, a falling snowflake, or a kid across the street on a skateboard, or just walking with his buddies, Caeda will be sure to inform us of this immediate and extreme threat to our life and limb and watch its progress with intense concentration. 

Seriously though, we don't know that she has deterred anyone for real (no breakins, and a home studio...so she might have!), but she has a heck of a bark on her, isn't scared to use it, and I have a feeling if a stranger came in our door (not sure about on our property) she'd consider biting I think....I KNOW she gets very threatening when she THINKS a stranger is coming in unannounced (thankfully it was DH, and wiggling ensued as she realized that). If we are there I know she'll back off of anyone (or she'll just wiggle), if we weren't right there to tell her yes or no, I think she would make a decent decision.


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## minireb123 (Apr 17, 2014)

Bennie would be overjoyed if anybody was in our apartment as long as they pet her. Ruby on the other hand has a much scarier bark and is stranger suspicious (it used to be all men but now it's only white men though?). She puts on a big show but I think it's her way of telling strangers that she doesn't like them around and that she's a little wary of them. If they approach the yard or the house, she'll usually keep her space and bark until they leave but she won't go attack them. I don't think she would bite someone if they just came in but she definitely would snap if they tried to touch her. She's also definitely more bark-y about people coming towards the yard. She's older now so she doesn't really care if people come into the house through the front door but again she just has an aversion to white men and will bark if they approach the front door.


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## Elliriyanna (Nov 11, 2011)

My dog is 10 lbs ... 11 on a good day ... Noone fears this dog or ever will, But he has a very loud bark and it will wake you, and he is not shy about barking, I am trying to teach him to be quiet on command. Anyone he see's outside is barked at, once they come inside he is all wiggles and wanting to be petted. I trust my dogs judgement though, he loves everyone, I have seen avoid one person ( boyfriends brothers guest) and I immediately pulled him away and did not talk to her.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Toby _*might*_ bark, if the intruder knocked first or made any sort of odd shuffling outside of the door before entering, but if the person literally just waltzed in like they own the place Toby would probably just run to greet them and jump all over them asking to be pet... 

I voted that he's a self-appointed defender, but only because in the past when it's been late and dark, my husband has been barked at, growled at and nipped by Toby for coming in the house all quiet and sneaky-like. I have even had to go and physically get Toby and hold him until he realised it was my husband. 
For that reason - we taught a 'Friend' cue.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

if i wanted my dog to be protective i would have him trained by a professional to be protective.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

doggiepop said:


> if i wanted my dog to be protective i would have him trained by a professional to be protective.


Aren't most GSDs protective naturally?

Not saying your dog (or any German Shepherd) is gonna be a grade A IPO/personal protection dog right out of the box but from what I know and from personal experience, most Shepherds have the tendency to be guardy and protective naturally.

ETA: I guess I'm asking if you have subdued any of your dog's natural instincts or if he just doesn't have much or whatever.

ETA2: I actually have no idea what I'm asking.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Yeah from what I've seen and heard GSDs have that natural instinct but most need training so that they know the difference between a normal person vs. someone acting sketchy, and then training to be able to reliably be able to take care of that person. Take a look at the GSD forum, there is a special section for aggression, there is an insane amount of people who bought a GSD to guard the house and 1-2 years later have an out of control dog who barks and snarls at everything that moves. They all say they wanted a guard dog but not this. It's actually very sad I've read a lot of those threads where the dog is rehomed or pts. 

Eko does protect the house. We put him away for a few minutes after people come over to settle down because if we don't he might get snappy. When he is not in the room Xena feels the need to take over, she barks a lot but not much else. I actually recently installed a security system in my house, so if the dogs don't scare the burglars away the police will  I think it's my security system's job to guard my house, not my dogs'. But they are not protection trained. If they were, it might be a different story.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

some are more naturally protective and some aren't. my dog is from a line ScH III's but my dog is a 
pet/companion/love all/go everywhere dog but that's because he was trained and socialized to be gentle. 
my last GSD was very protective naturally so he was trained to be protective in certain situations. my GF 
didn't want our dog to be protective. my GF is a massage therapist. she has clients that visit our home.
she didn't want her clients being met at the door by a barking GSD so we did "love bug, couch potato training".



RabbleFox said:


> Aren't most GSDs protective naturally?
> 
> Not saying your dog (or any German Shepherd) is gonna be a grade A IPO/personal protection dog right out of the box but from what I know and from personal experience, most Shepherds have the tendency to be guardy and protective naturally.
> 
> ...


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

I'm probably going to offend some but hey, I'm used to it. I really dislike using a dog for a weapon. I do not want my dogs to ever attack anyone. They both are great burglar alarms though so no one is sneaking in. If they break in when I'm gone I don't want them hurt, I can replace material things. If they break in while I'm home I have tools to solve the problem.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Yes, Luke is a good guard dog. He'll bark up a storm at whoever is at the door and won't stop until he feels that the "threat" is gone. But once a person is inside that he doesn't know, say a maintenance man, he'll be curious. He'll sniff at whatever they have and be in their way. So I put "yes, but he's not good at it" part.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

No. And this is why: http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012/11/15/guard-dogs-burglars-home-security/

My dog barks like crazy when someone's at the door - if that's enough of a deterrent then great. But it's not their job. My dog is my companion; nothing more.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I see comments that they want their dogs to be friendly to strangers, etc so therefore do not want a protective dog. 

It is not an either or thing. 

Aggression is not protection. 

A dog can be friendly, social, outgoing, etc and still be protective. Between all the shows, dog events, dog educational events, etc. 

EASILY 10 thousand people have had their hands on him.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i would be a real idiot if i expected a 12 lb dog to protect me and my house.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I see comments that they want their dogs to be friendly to strangers, etc so therefore do not want a protective dog.
> 
> It is not an either or thing.
> 
> ...


Very true- Puppy is gentle and friendly to strangers that he is introduced to (or in daylight if they happen to be walking by and call out to him) but he is extremely protective as well-- we have been taking him to the river on these hot days and stop for swim breaks, and teaching him he does not need to alert to folks swimming in the next bend of the river .....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I see comments that they want their dogs to be friendly to strangers, etc so therefore do not want a protective dog.
> 
> It is not an either or thing.
> 
> ...



Yep, and dogs can be absolutely not friendly, social, outgoing OR protective in the least. (Kindly meet Jack). There's a whole lot of variance in there.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Buster tries...his eagerness to meet new people sort of throws off his game.

He does make a pretty good stupidity deterrent. So far no one has been willing to press their luck and test just how far he's willing to take things.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> No. And this is why: http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012/11/15/guard-dogs-burglars-home-security/


 I find that article quite interesting....and I love that they actually staged break-ins to see for sure what the reaction would be (I'm assuming there was protective equipment involved). We've joked about the idea of doing that with Caeda, getting a buddy to come over unexpectedly when we "aren't home" and see what she does. It could go just fine (as far as our buddy not getting bit)! On the other hand, the reason we haven't done it is because she might actually be very protective....we don't want anybody to get hurt for the sake of our curiosity!


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> I find that article quite interesting....and I love that they actually staged break-ins to see for sure what the reaction would be (I'm assuming there was protective equipment involved). We've joked about the idea of doing that with Caeda, getting a buddy to come over unexpectedly when we "aren't home" and see what she does. It could go just fine (as far as our buddy not getting bit)! On the other hand, the reason we haven't done it is because she might actually be very protective....we don't want anybody to get hurt for the sake of our curiosity!


For some reason the video won't play, but I've seen it in the past. The 'intruders' wear suits similar to bite work/police dog training. Every single dog either cowered, hid, and one even did TRICKS for the intruder. One dog nipped (more out of fear, I'd assume) the guy but quickly cowered and hid. Not one single dog protected the home, or even tried. The only breeds they used were breeds supposedly more 'protective' than others.


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## JeJo (Jul 29, 2013)

I was unable to see the video as well. In such a test scenario, while the action of a burglary can be played out, the energy and adrenaline of a real perpetrator likely cannot be and that might make a difference; I don't know. At any rate, if my home is ever broken into, beyond the initial barking upon entry, I do hope that Kayla quietly goes to her crate and makes herself as small of a target as she can once entry is gained. 

I have to think that there is a difference, too, between a dog protecting property and one protecting family. My laptop, jewelry and such have no value in my dog's mind as to where my young grandkiddos hopefully do, to where Kayla would be protective of them if need be... Again, thankfully, she has never been tested.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> No. And this is why: http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012/11/15/guard-dogs-burglars-home-security/
> 
> My dog barks like crazy when someone's at the door - if that's enough of a deterrent then great. But it's not their job. My dog is my companion; nothing more.


A LOT of of dogs will not go... Dogs, most anyway, are "stronger" if you are at home. 

None of the dogs in the video, are a guard or protection dogs. 

AND THE LARGER THING ----- THE DECOY IS NOT JACKED UP ON ADRENALINE. A robber would be.... Good decoys make themselves that way to. At least to an extent.... IF that decoy has any experience, he knows those dogs are not coming before he goes in the house. It is one thing to get jacked up for a dog that is going to take your wind, knock you on your butt, etc. But not those dogs. 

And frankly if a dog is not going to go all the way and follow through, it is BETTER off running. The dog that comes within a few feet of the bad guy and stops, stands his ground gets dead real quick and real easy.

Thinking your dog might actually protect, you have to proof it. Day, night, with you home, without you home, with other members home.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't really think any of my dogs would protect the property/house if I weren't around. They bark plenty but I don't think would actually do anything. I do think that the boys, at least, might protect ME. Toby has especially shown some protective tendencies. 

Once we were walking on our usual country road, and there was some lightning happening many miles away (as in, I could barely hear the thunder. But you can see a long way on the prairie). I don't even know if it was the storm or something else (he's not normally scared of storms), but about halfway down the road, Toby started getting really weird. Like, stopping in front of me, trying to get me to go back to the car, etc. I decided it was time to leave, just because . I still have no idea what that was about. He has also stood between me and people he doesn't know. I think if I looked/sounded/acted scared he would get upset. I hope I never find out for sure .


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I see comments that they want their dogs to be friendly to strangers, etc so therefore do not want a protective dog.
> 
> It is not an either or thing.
> 
> Aggression is not protection.


The question is why have a animal protect you when you can and should do a much better job yourself. The dog doesn't have many options and can easily be killed any number of ways. I never want my dogs aggressive towards humans and dislike people using them for weapons, period.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> The question is why have a animal protect you when you can and should do a much better job yourself. The dog doesn't have many options and can easily be killed any number of ways. I never want my dogs aggressive towards humans and dislike people using them for weapons, period.


You DO realize that a LARGE percentage of breeds would not exist. Anyway... Does not matter. 

I watch their back and they watch mine. With people, situations, etc. Dogs have abilities we do not have, and we have abilities a dog does not have. As a team, each the person and the dog is stronger. 

If I am home and someone or someones are trying to get in, the dogs are just an appetizer. I will be in action well before a guy or guys actually gets in side. They will actually wish the dogs had got them when I am done. 

But many people, frankly are better off and safer with a GOOD dog, than arming themselves. Some people do not have it in them to willfully harm a person. Even a bad person. Others think they can go down the gun shop, buy a gun, load it, and put it in their night stand. They actually think they are ready. 

And... There are scenarios.... 
Multiple attackers, spouses home alone, young women alone, etc. Dogs come into play. 

I have to go out of town for work. And I at times travel for dog stuff. My wife works late, my wife stays alone when I am gone, etc. 
I and she have doubts that she could kill or hurt someone badly in self defense. And I am sure she cannot deal with more than one. 

The dogs bring an entire new level of home security. If I am not home, my wife knows no one is in the house. The dogs or at least one of them is inside. If my wife is staying alone, the dogs or at least one is there. I KNOW they will go... And you know what... I LOVE my dogs.. TONS... But I love my wife more. If one or both of my dogs go down, but it buys her enough time to get away. I am willing to live with that. 

As for this statement.....


> The dog doesn't have many options and can easily be killed any number of ways.


You have obviously not been around good dogs and seen just how formidable they can be. 

First of all, the dog has MANY options. And a good dog will MESS someone up FAST. Even with a gun or knife if the dog can bring the man down on the first hit, his odds are good. IF the dog is coming... The concern is not the dog getting shot when it is coming in. But rather once the dog is on the man. There is a station in sporting clays, that simulates a rabbit running at you at close range. A VERY good shot will hit the clay, maybe 2 out of ten tries. And that is a seasoned shooter, in good light that calls the clay when he is READY and in PERFECT stance. Most armed bad guys carry handguns, in low light situations, surprised and nervous. Odds are HEAVILY in the dogs favor that it makes it to the guy without getting shot. Once the dog is on the man, how and how well you train the dog also stacks the odds. Many Police K9 Handlers are far more concerned about knives and someone that knows how to use one than guns. 

And once the dog reaches the man, it is extremely formidable. Decoys, in full suits, complete with head gear get HURT all the time. And I am not talking about bumps, scratches and even punctures. I am talking real damage. And MOST decoys are young athletic guys. That dog I posted a picture of on this thread.... Has broken a decoy's collar bone, dislocated another's shoulder, and broke ones nose despite full head gear. And he is UNDERSIZED. I have seen broken arms, a bunch of dislocated shoulders, a NASTY ankle break and more guys barfing their cookies. 
Barring a gunshot or a stab wound, a good dog versus a man.... I am betting on the dog EVERY time.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I can't buy a gun, which is probably for the best, so I have my dogs and a security system. That's about as safe as it gets! But honestly, my dogs are a pretty good deterrent on looks alone, nobody messes with the house with a GSD and a pit bull. Most criminals are pretty cowardly!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The dogs bring an entire new level of home security. If I am not home, my wife knows no one is in the house.


This one is a really good point in particular to me. Don't get me wrong, Caeda is quite the "alerter" for stupid things, that said, I've been home alone before, about to fall asleep and heard weird noises that made me wonder if someone was in, or was trying to get into the house.....If Caeda doesn't move, I know it isn't something to worry about. She knows the difference between the sound of our car pulling in, and someone else's car pulling into the driveway, she's "told" me when someone has showed up. Even if I'm expecting DH home, if it is him she either stays nappy on the bed with me, or she goes wiggling off to the door.....a different car pulls in, or if something sounds "wrong" (or so I guess...) she gets tense and goes on alert. 

Caeda has done a tiny bit of IPO protection, but not to a point that she has an "attack" command or any such thing. She *might* actually attack in a truly dangerous situation...I wouldn't be surprised if she did, though I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't either. She is however "guardy" enough that if there were an intruder, I'm positive I would have enough of a heads up that it could make a huge difference to the outcome.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Greater Swiss said:


> This one is a really good point in particular to me. Don't get me wrong, Caeda is quite the "alerter" for stupid things, that said, I've been home alone before, about to fall asleep and heard weird noises that made me wonder if someone was in, or was trying to get into the house.....If Caeda doesn't move, I know it isn't something to worry about. She knows the difference between the sound of our car pulling in, and someone else's car pulling into the driveway, she's "told" me when someone has showed up. Even if I'm expecting DH home, if it is him she either stays nappy on the bed with me, or she goes wiggling off to the door.....a different car pulls in, or if something sounds "wrong" (or so I guess...) she gets tense and goes on alert.
> 
> Caeda has done a tiny bit of IPO protection, but not to a point that she has an "attack" command or any such thing. She *might* actually attack in a truly dangerous situation...I wouldn't be surprised if she did, though I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't either. She is however "guardy" enough that if there were an intruder, I'm positive I would have enough of a heads up that it could make a huge difference to the outcome.


In 2011 our neighbhood, which is middle class, was getting hit by a crew... They were targeting certain items, daytime, etc. They were in and out, Alarms did not slow them down.... Out of 22 houses that got hit... All were dog free...

Something a LOT of people do not know....Monitored alarms have a 30 second delay before it makes the call. If you get to the control box, destroy it prior to 30 seconds....... The call never goes out. So.... Sledge hammer to the deadbolts, the get in.... Alarm companies place the control box in very predictable places..... So get in and take the sledge hammer to the box, take the stuff and get out. IF they happen to not find the box, they bolt at 30 seconds. 

The thing is... This sort of information and MORE... is traded around in juvenile lockups, county jails, prison, etc. About as quick as new technology is out, information on how to beat it runs through the jails. 

There ARE better systems.... But not reasonably priced ones.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

if you're going to test your dog do it with someone she won't see again. find someone with protective gear (Schutzhund club).
in the middle of the night have someone knock on the door, tap on a window, walk through the yard making noise. take your
dog out and have someone come and go into the bathroom and close the door. bring your dog in and see if your dog can sense
someone or smell someone in the bathroom. if your dog doesn't react have the person knock on the bathroom and and talk. when
the person leaves the house leash your dog just in case. there's all kinds of scenarios you can set up.



Greater Swiss said:


> I find that article quite interesting....and I love that they actually staged break-ins to see for sure what the reaction would be (I'm assuming there was protective equipment involved).
> 
> >>>>> We've joked about the idea of doing that with Caeda, getting a buddy to come over unexpectedly when we "aren't home" and see what she does. It could go just fine (as far as our buddy not getting bit)! On the other hand, the reason we haven't done it is because she might actually be very protective....we don't want anybody to get hurt for the sake of our curiosity!<<<<<


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You DO realize that a LARGE percentage of breeds would not exist. Anyway... Does not matter.
> 
> I watch their back and they watch mine. With people, situations, etc. Dogs have abilities we do not have, and we have abilities a dog does not have. As a team, each the person and the dog is stronger.
> 
> ...


Your rationale is deeply flawed. How are you going to bar anything? Someone willing to break into your home is very likely to be armed with at least a knife. A dog only has one weapon, not many, and unlike a tiger (a tiger I'd put money on) so he's very vulnerable. A skinny crackhead can run a butcher knife through his head, neck or chest. OC spray will disable most dogs for a bit. A shotgun would remove all doubt. 

Yep, lots of breeds wouldn't exist, like the Mastiffs, but that doesn't mean we should act like ancient Romans in war. It's sad to see someone try to justify putting an animal in harms way. That's like training your children to take a hit for you. Man up and do you own security.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

Sarah~ said:


> I can't buy a gun, which is probably for the best, so I have my dogs and a security system. That's about as safe as it gets! But honestly, my dogs are a pretty good deterrent on looks alone, nobody messes with the house with a GSD and a pit bull. Most criminals are pretty cowardly!


I don't know why you can't buy a firearm or why you've been conditioned to believe it's for the best but no, a dog is not as good as it gets. If they are outside anyone can flip them poisened hamburger meat or something. Inside, an hatchet removes Fido from the equation.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Actually, we did notice something interesting, since our house has been on the market we've taken Caeda out whenever there has been a showing. When we get back she is on alert...I'm pretty sure if we asked our agent it would be confirmed that Caeda is following the route that was taken through the house. We got back after one viewing about 5 mins after they left and Caeda was WIRED and her hackles were up a tiny bit and she didn't calm down until she had checked every room. 

Interesting thought though Doggiepop....we might set something up having someone go into a room and close the door. Really, I don't need to know if she would attack, but knowing her reaction to someone in the house would be quite interesting (if it ever happens for real I might recognize it!).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I do like that when I come home, I know nobody else is in the house. The dogs would definitely be acting weird if someone was, say, hiding under the bed or something. So that's nice.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think dogs make people feel safer, and I think that's invaluable. 

I think dogs are great deterrents and noise makers in the case of break-ins and, maybe, street crime if your dog is with you.

I don't think dogs do an actual thing to make anybody safer in face of a real, prepared threat against someone with intent to harm (not most burglars, who would prefer you not be home). They're just going to dispatch your dog and move on.

But mostly I think they can be loud and make people feel safer, and anybody absolutely insisting their dog could/would take on an armed assailant and does not have a dog specifically trained to the task AND owner present at the time? I think they're either on some kind of ego-trip or really, really need to feel safe. I don't speculate that it's the former in specific situations because if it's the later? They're entitled to feel safe, whether I think the thing they're referencing as a safety measure actually keeps them safe or is a security blanket or not.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh, yeah. Door locks and security systems and dogs will all deter small-time maliantes. But really nothing is going to stop real bad guys from being real bad, if they've targeted you. Fortunately real bad guys are not as common as small-time maliantes .


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> Your rationale is deeply flawed. How are you going to bar anything? Someone willing to break into your home is very likely to be armed with at least a knife. A dog only has one weapon, not many, and unlike a tiger (a tiger I'd put money on) so he's very vulnerable. A skinny crackhead can run a butcher knife through his head, neck or chest. OC spray will disable most dogs for a bit. A shotgun would remove all doubt.
> 
> Yep, lots of breeds wouldn't exist, like the Mastiffs, but that doesn't mean we should act like ancient Romans in war. It's sad to see someone try to justify putting an animal in harms way. That's like training your children to take a hit for you. Man up and do you own security.


LOL you are funny.....

No rationale involved with me. Just 30 years experience with working with IPO, police K9, and personal protection dogs. Including working as a decoy, training my own dogs, training with friends, etc. 

You on the other hand have obviously form an opinion without any experience or knowledge on the subject...

And this is hilarious.... 


> Man up and do you own security.


Tells me you are grasping at straws... When you have no validity to your point of view, attempt and insult. 
It is impossible for you to insult me, offend me, etc. And when you try, I think it is humorous. 

IF YOU think a dog only has a single weapon, you have never seen or been hit by a good dog. 

But what the heck I will explain. 

First of all....

The dogs BEST weapon is its body. The first hit is crucial. Before the teeth even come into play the force of a dog hitting a man usually knocks the wind out of him, often will separate the ribs, and at times break bones. IF dogs can are capable of breaking bones on decoys in suits..... You actually think they cannot severely damage someone not in a suit? 



> A skinny crackhead can run a butcher knife through his head, neck or chest.


It is possible... But not likely.... If the crackhead has the knife out, the dog keys in on the arm with the knife. The knife most often falls out of the hand on the hit. IF the knife is not out, the crackhead does not have an opportunity to bring the knife into play. Frankly the dog is in more danger of landing on the knife than getting stabbed. 



> OC spray will disable most dogs for a bit.


 OC spray works on pesky dogs on your walk... Working dogs are a very different story... Some will be slowed briefly..... MOST will run right through it. 




> A shotgun would remove all doubt.


Many people that are not knowledgeable on firearms think that shotguns are a sure thing in many instances. 
FAR FAR and away, the most difficult shot is something coming directly at you. And it being low makes it more difficult. Most people never practice it. IF you have never practiced it, IF you hit the target it is LUCK. The rabbit station in sporting clays I mentioned in my previous post.... I do a couple of tournaments a year. And the week before, I will go sit on the rabbit coming at you station for as long as I can. I will take a hundred shots if I have time. And then I am happy if I hit one out of two targets. I have watched world class pro shooters miss the shot time after time. And this is when you have all the time in the world to get your stance perfect, breathing right, etc. A fair number of shooters just scratch the shot. and move on. 

And part of the myth with shotguns is how much the pattern of shot spreads. At the ranges a person is going to engage a dog coming at them, even with IMPROVED CYLINDER choke ( the choke that gives the MOST spread of shot and widest pattern, unless it is a high end specialty gun with a custom choke) the pattern is going to be smaller than a baseball. Hardly a sure thing....Add the speed of the dog, lighting that can be poor, etc. etc... It becomes the shot of a lifetime....


You DO realize.... That a large number of police and military K9s, worldwide, take down multiple armed suspects(both knives and firearms) during their career, without injury?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Another thing to consider...

A security system, most of them anyway, alert you when there has been a breach to your home, door, window etc.

A decent dog, will alert you BEFORE the breach has been made...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

By the Way....

I do not think the decoy needs to be someone the dog does not know. Just someone the dog is not close to.. .It does not matter if the decoy is someone the dog has worked before. The dog is clever enough to know who belongs and who does not. 

I do four scenarios.....

1) Us home alone, in bed....
2) My wife home alone awake....
3) No one home. 
4) My wife home alone in bed. 

I also train and proof repeatedly a decoy coming in with FULL gear, me allowing them in. 

I like to do them at night. But I DOUBT it matters. I leave the door unlocked.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

My dog is not trained for it and it is not expected of him. But he is the self appointed guardian and I do know for a fact he would go for a bite on an intruder, whether he knew them or not. And frankly I appreciate that about him. Even people he does know, he does not welcome in if un-escorted by myself or my Husband. And he has made a legitimate go at an unannounced guest before that came into the house. I intervened before the bite, but he was going in for it. I managed to snagged his collar while he was airborne.

If I thought he had the nerve for it, I'd join a Schutzhund club with him. But he wouldn't make a good competitive dog (not in bite sports anyway) and most clubs wouldn't want to waste helper time just working a dog for the heck of it, otherwise I'd do it just for the extra training benefits.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The dogs BEST weapon is its body. The first hit is crucial. Before the teeth even come into play the force of a dog hitting a man usually knocks the wind out of him, often will separate the ribs, and at times break bones. IF dogs can are capable of breaking bones on decoys in suits..... You actually think they cannot severely damage someone not in a suit?


Ugh, I can't find it but there is a fantastic video out there somewhere of muzzled working dogs - honestly I can't remember if they are IPO, personal protection, or police dogs - taking out people in full football protective gear. It's on a football field, someone passes the ball, and as soon as the receiver catches it the dog is released to chase down the receiver. Every single time the dogs just knock the person right off their feet in one hit and those people were just laid out. It was fascinating to watch, I really wish I could find it but my search skills are failing me.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Jackson WIGS out when people come in our house that he doesn't know. He barks very forwardly but if it comes down to it, he would run away lol. Some folks have been scared of him though even though he's only like 17lbs haha.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Ugh, I can't find it but there is a fantastic video out there somewhere of muzzled working dogs - honestly I can't remember if they are IPO, personal protection, or police dogs - taking out people in full football protective gear. It's on a football field, someone passes the ball, and as soon as the receiver catches it the dog is released to chase down the receiver. Every single time the dogs just knock the person right off their feet in one hit and those people were just laid out. It was fascinating to watch, I really wish I could find it but my search skills are failing me.


Exactly!!! what some folks and Waggintails do not get, is taking away a dogs bite does not slow them down. We had to call an ambulance for a decoy last year. We were scared to move him. He was unconscious. Ended up he had a bad concussion, one badly broken rib, and was peeing red....

Dog was an 18 month old GSD/Bel Mal purpose bred cross... Not a big guy 70 pounds soaking wet... Was not finished training. 
Decoy was very experienced, had been a decoy at world championships....



Little ole under sized Merlin has knocked me down.... All 54 pounds of him...... Repeatedly while wearing a muzzle... Young, athletic men.... 


Dogs only have one weapon. Yea.... Right...


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

personal protection always.... living things such as the other animals yes. territorial less important but I wont interfere when it's naturally strong in them.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Qhat waggintails fails to realize... Is that for many folks... Having a dog capable, willing, and trained back up is a great back up... 
IT is not about the dog doing the dirty work.... I am more than willing to shoot someone, fight, whatever. But what if I go down? My dogs might be the difference between life or death.....

What if I go down at home? What about my wife? More important than me.. What happens to her. My dogs could be the difference? 

What if I am not there and my wife is alone? My dogs can make the difference....'


Check the average response times to a 911 call in a given area......Response to security alarms is even slower.....


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Waggintails said:


> I don't know why you can't buy a firearm or why you've been conditioned to believe it's for the best but no, a dog is not as good as it gets. If they are outside anyone can flip them poisened hamburger meat or something. Inside, an hatchet removes Fido from the equation.


My dogs aren't outside alone. I'm sure you know what a big dog like a GSD barking sounds like, combine that with the extremely loud noise from the security system, and I think most burglars would be long gone. If not my GSD will and has charged and tried to bite anyone who walked in unannounced. I depend more on my alarm system than my dogs but I won't deter them from letting bad guys know it's probably a good idea to skip this house. There's nothing wrong with training a dog to protect you, your family and your property!



JohnnyBandit said:


> Qhat waggintails fails to realize... Is that for many folks... Having a dog capable, willing, and trained back up is a great back up...
> IT is not about the dog doing the dirty work.... I am more than willing to shoot someone, fight, whatever. But what if I go down? My dogs might be the difference between life or death.....
> 
> What if I go down at home? What about my wife? More important than me.. What happens to her. My dogs could be the difference?
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I am NOT saying... Everyone should have a protection dog. Far from it. But those that want one... it is an option. IF you can or want to handle the responsibility....


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Waggintails said:


> I don't know why you can't buy a firearm or why you've been conditioned to believe it's for the best but no, a dog is not as good as it gets. *If they are outside anyone can flip them poisened hamburger meat or something*.


 Dogs can, and often are trained to not take food unless they are given the release command to eat it, and I'm talking far beyond the release command I give my girl to eat her dinner, I mean they will NOT take food from an unknown person. 
Also, a protection dog can be friendly and gentle around kids, trained to NOT bite unless given a command, and chances are if left alone for a couple of seconds, the chance of a catastrophe happening are extremely low. A gun on the other hand.....kids.....I dunno, I think a protection dog is safer to have around the house than a gun. Also, an attacker can take your gun and use it on you.....your dog isn't going to turn on you. There are lots of reasons a protection dog can be VERY effective for your personal safety and a better choice than just going out and buying a gun. 

If I truly were concerned about personal security, I would be more likely to train Caeda (or perhaps find a dog more suited if she wasn't up to the work), and go that way than want to buy a gun. But that is just me.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> I don't know why you can't buy a firearm or why you've been conditioned to believe it's for the best but no, a dog is not as good as it gets. If they are outside anyone can flip them poisened hamburger meat or something. Inside, an hatchet removes Fido from the equation.


I missed this one last night... 




> If they are outside anyone can flip them poisened hamburger meat or something.


If someone is going to try to poison your dogs before come in, it does not matter if they are protection dogs or not. The bad guy does not know. If a bad guy is going to try to poisons the dogs, he is going to try this whether they are protection trained or not. As likely as not, they want to get rid of the noise. 

But it is so easy to poison proof a dog, anyone can do it. And with all the evil people in the world that try to poison dogs for assorted reasons, and leave poison in parks, fields, at dog events, etc, it is a good idea for almost everyone to do this. 

With a hatchet, they have to get in the house first... Can't use a hatchet while crawling through a window or even busting through a door. The dog is not going to stand there and wait for them to get all the way inside. It is going to alert before they get in. And will go to work on them before they are through the door, or have crawled all the way through the window. Aside from that, the barking and noise before they ever breach an entry should alert the homeowner. Allows you to take action. Me... I would not wait until they got in to take action. Obviously I could see them through the windows, and have peepholes in my doors. If someone is trying to get in, they might get one warning from me. Then I start shooting. BEFORE they are ever in. (In some states you have to wait until they get in. And in some you may have to wait until you see if they are armed and intent on harming you. In my State you do not) If I shoot them while they are trying to get in but still outside, less mess in the house.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> LOL you are funny.....
> 
> No rationale involved with me. Just 30 years experience with working with IPO, police K9, and personal protection dogs. Including working as a decoy, training my own dogs, training with friends, etc.


Then you've been involved with misusing dogs for 30 years. Chuckling doesn't make it right. I do not agree with government officials using dogs as weapons either. For finding suspects, sniffing out drugs or bombs, sure. 


> You on the other hand have obviously form an opinion without any experience or knowledge on the subject...
> 
> And this is hilarious....
> 
> ...


I have no experience at what? I need to abuse an animal for 30 years to form a valid opinion in your mind? I have zero repect for those that misuse animals, it has nothing to do with you. The world does not revolve around you. I don't hold the opinion based on what some annonomous guy says on the internet. I think you need to get over yourself, you are not my master, you can't train me or get me to change my thoughts. I'm just calling a spade a spade, you can be indifferent, offended or anything in between.


> But what the heck I will explain.
> 
> First of all....
> 
> ...


Bull. I've been a member on a LEO forum for 9 years and that's NOT what they say. They typically have better success than a firearm, unless it's a shotgun. So your "30 years" experience is just an uninformed opinion. Try bluffing someone else. You also base your thinking on what you think might happen in every scenario. That's impossible. If a dog is home, he's likely barking, they know what to expect. If they are coming in they aren't coming in unaware and getting knocked down and bones broken. Give us a break, you're piling it up higher and higher trying to justify yourself.


> Many people that are not knowledgeable on firearms think that shotguns are a sure thing in many instances.
> FAR FAR and away, the most difficult shot is something coming directly at you. And it being low makes it more difficult. Most people never practice it. IF you have never practiced it, IF you hit the target it is LUCK. The rabbit station in sporting clays I mentioned in my previous post.... I do a couple of tournaments a year. And the week before, I will go sit on the rabbit coming at you station for as long as I can. I will take a hundred shots if I have time. And then I am happy if I hit one out of two targets. I have watched world class pro shooters miss the shot time after time. And this is when you have all the time in the world to get your stance perfect, breathing right, etc. A fair number of shooters just scratch the shot. and move on.
> 
> And part of the myth with shotguns is how much the pattern of shot spreads. At the ranges a person is going to engage a dog coming at them, even with IMPROVED CYLINDER choke ( the choke that gives the MOST spread of shot and widest pattern, unless it is a high end specialty gun with a custom choke) the pattern is going to be smaller than a baseball. Hardly a sure thing....Add the speed of the dog, lighting that can be poor, etc. etc... It becomes the shot of a lifetime....
> ...


And many get killed in the line of duty. Do you realize that or are you too busy lecturing people with your fake scenarios and strawman arguments? Shooting a shotgun at a large target a few feet away isn't rabbit hunting. To believe what you in order to misuse an innocent animal you must spin and distort facts, chuckling at people that bring it up doesn't make it better.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Qhat waggintails fails to realize... Is that for many folks... Having a dog capable, willing, and trained back up is a great back up...
> IT is not about the dog doing the dirty work.... I am more than willing to shoot someone, fight, whatever. But what if I go down? My dogs might be the difference between life or death.....
> 
> What if I go down at home? What about my wife? More important than me.. What happens to her. My dogs could be the difference?
> ...


911 calls may help after the fact. What you fail to realize is that coming up with nonsense doesn't add validity to your beliefs. If someone can and is willing to murder a man in his home then they are going to be willing to dispatch your pet. I believe most dogs would try to come to their master's rescue, like a child would for a parent. That's instinct. They don't need to be trained for it. You, your wife and teenage kids can be trained to protect the home. Dogs are great for a warning system but I think it's sad so many people this day and age with so many other options available are willing to use an animal as a weapon. And that's the only reason you train a dog to attack humans, let's not beat around the bush.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> Then you've been involved with misusing dogs for 30 years. Chuckling doesn't make it right. I do not agree with government officials using dogs as weapons either. For finding suspects, sniffing out drugs or bombs, sure.
> I have no experience at what? I need to abuse an animal for 30 years to form a valid opinion in your mind? I have zero repect for those that misuse animals, it has nothing to do with you. The world does not revolve around you. I don't hold the opinion based on what some annonomous guy says on the internet. I think you need to get over yourself, you are not my master, you can't train me or get me to change my thoughts. I'm just calling a spade a spade, you can be indifferent, offended or anything in between.
> Bull. I've been a member on a LEO forum for 9 years and that's NOT what they say. They typically have better success than a firearm, unless it's a shotgun. So your "30 years" experience is just an uninformed opinion. Try bluffing someone else. You also base your thinking on what you think might happen in every scenario. That's impossible. If a dog is home, he's likely barking, they know what to expect. If they are coming in they aren't coming in unaware and getting knocked down and bones broken. Give us a break, you're piling it up higher and higher trying to justify yourself.
> And many get killed in the line of duty. Do you realize that or are you too busy lecturing people with your fake scenarios and strawman arguments? Shooting a shotgun at a large target a few feet away isn't rabbit hunting. To believe what you in order to misuse an innocent animal you must spin and distort facts, chuckling at people that bring it up doesn't make it better.


You get more entertaining and more irrational with every post...



> Then you've been involved with misusing dogs for 30 years. Chuckling doesn't make it right. I do not agree with government officials using dogs as weapons either. For finding suspects, sniffing out drugs or bombs, sure.


Nope never misused or mistreated a dog...

I love this one...
[QUOTEI have no experience at what? I need to abuse an animal for 30 years to form a valid opinion in your mind? I have zero repect for those that misuse animals, it has nothing to do with you. The world does not revolve around you. I don't hold the opinion based on what some annonomous guy says on the internet. I think you need to get over yourself, you are not my master, you can't train me or get me to change my thoughts. I'm just calling a spade a spade, you can be indifferent, offended or anything in between. [/QUOTE]

This is just more reaching and attempting to get under my skin. All it does is makes me laugh... And I am not some anonymous guy.... I have been here for years and a lot of folks here know me on a personal level. 



> Bull. I've been a member on a LEO forum for 9 years and that's NOT what they say. They typically have better success than a firearm, unless it's a shotgun. So your "30 years" experience is just an uninformed opinion. Try bluffing someone else. You also base your thinking on what you think might happen in every scenario. That's impossible. If a dog is home, he's likely barking, they know what to expect. If they are coming in they aren't coming in unaware and getting knocked down and bones broken. Give us a break, you're piling it up higher and higher trying to justify yourself.


You obviously have not handled a shotgun much if at all. Other than that, this is just more run on..... And do you think I am worried about what "they' say.... In fact I am not sure what you are attempting to tell us, what it is that "they" do say.



> And many get killed in the line of duty. To believe what you in order to misuse an innocent animal you must spin and distort facts, chuckling at people that bring it up doesn't make it better.


I never said none get killed in the line of duty... So do human police officers. What is your point? 



> Do you realize that or are you too busy lecturing people with your fake scenarios and strawman arguments?


Just more attempts to get under my skin.



> Shooting a shotgun at a large target a few feet away isn't rabbit hunting.


Obviously you have never attempted to shoot a fast moving target right at you. 



> To believe what you in order to misuse an innocent animal you must spin and distort facts, chuckling at people that bring it up doesn't make it better.


 I am still laughing......


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> 911 calls may help after the fact. What you fail to realize is that coming up with nonsense doesn't add validity to your beliefs. If someone can and is willing to murder a man in his home then they are going to be willing to dispatch your pet. I believe most dogs would try to come to their master's rescue, like a child would for a parent. That's instinct. They don't need to be trained for it. You, your wife and teenage kids can be trained to protect the home. Dogs are great for a warning system but I think it's sad so many people this day and age with so many other options available are willing to use an animal as a weapon. And that's the only reason you train a dog to attack humans, let's not beat around the bush.


" After the fact" means whatever bad things that were going to happen have already happened. NO help for the person being attacked. 

LOL I am well armed and well trained.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I recognize that it is your opinion but I would not call personal protection, military, or police dog work abusive. 

Have you ever seen a dog at work? Even just a video? They are so /thrilled/ to be there, doing their thing. It is their purpose. They save lives doing what they absolutely love. I would rather one dog die and save peoples lives than have people get blown to boys everyday. 

I think if you asked working dogs if they would rather work and possibly die or stay at home for the rest of their days, many would choose work. Regardless of the risk. 

A military dog loves his job like a herding dog loves his sheep or like a scenting dog loves to track or like a pointing dog loves to hunt. It's cruel to take away their work, IMO.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You get more entertaining and more irrational with every post...


You bloviate moreso every post. When has that ever worked for you?


> Nope never misused or mistreated a dog...


If you're trained them to be a weapon to attack humans then you have.


> This is just more reaching and attempting to get under my skin. All it does is makes me laugh... And I am not some anonymous guy.... I have been here for years and a lot of folks here know me on a personal level.


I don't care about your skin, or you for that matter. It isn't all about you.


> You obviously have not handled a shotgun much if at all. Other than that, this is just more run on..... And do you think I am worried about what "they' say.... In fact I am not sure what you are attempting to tell us, what it is that "they" do say.


I said what I was talking about very plainly. Why put they in quotes. Yes, I have several shot guns and shoot them. What's wrong with you?


> I never said none get killed in the line of duty... So do human police officers. What is your point?


I said what my point was. You can't read or receive information that disagrees with your mindset. People have a choice, animals don't. Once someone is ferreted out there's no reason to use the dog to attack them. Today, we have tasers, beanbags, OC spray, etc. 


> Just more attempts to get under my skin.
> 
> Obviously you have never attempted to shoot a fast moving target right at you.
> 
> I am still laughing......


You laugh, chuckle and can't read. That explains why you believe what you do.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> I recognize that it is your opinion but I would not call personal protection, military, or police dog work abusive.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog at work? Even just a video? They are so /thrilled/ to be there, doing their thing. It is their purpose. They save lives doing what they absolutely love. I would rather one dog die and save peoples lives than have people get blown to boys everyday.
> 
> ...


Wow. Train a dog to kill or main and then lament the fact that you'd be taking away their work? Yes, dogs are generally eager to please, that's what makes it worse in my mind. I'm not going to agree with those of you who think nothing of using an animal/pet as a weapon. Today we have better options and I want my pets to be out of harms way if possible.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> You bloviate moreso every post. When has that ever worked for you?
> If you're trained them to be a weapon to attack humans then you have.
> I don't care about your skin, or you for that matter. It isn't all about you.
> I said what I was talking about very plainly. Why put they in quotes. Yes, I have several shot guns and shoot them. What's wrong with you?
> ...


 Lol you get more entertaining with each post.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

If I lived in an area where I felt a legitimate need to somehow involve my dog in my own protection and well-being ... I'd pull the plug and move to another, safer, saner locale. And quickly, at that.

JMPO.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Waggintails said:


> Wow. Train a dog to kill or main and then lament the fact that you'd be taking away their work? Yes, dogs are generally eager to please, that's what makes it worse in my mind. I'm not going to agree with those of you who think nothing of using an animal/pet as a weapon. Today we have better options and I want my pets to be out of harms way if possible.


no offense I just can't leave my property dressed up like rambo with guns, rifles sling across my chest, and a couple of hand grenades strapped to my belt for good measure.. No assailant, house invader is going to leave a note on your car saying your going to be attack or robbed at 6pm on Tuesday.... Classic MO here is walk right up night or day and start beating you in the head and face you don't stand a chance to pull out one of your gadgets and defend yourself and any weapon you have can and will be used against you. I totally agree of caring enough about my dogs that I don't leave them unattended out side when I am not home, and that sending them out into the dark after something is (un necessary) is no threat at a distance.. .. Military dogs are not trained to kill,, they are trained to detain and that includes to fight harder when a person is resisting and fighting back at them or their handler.. You can only appreciate a dog who can and will when you need one... 2am in the morning whare house area I come up on a vehicle parked.. I call for back up.. typical MPs all sleeping somewhere (no one is coming) Just me and Franco... Not a big person, do carry a gun, and it's all laughter and smart mouths getting them out of the vehicle and getting them to the trunk area (4) of them... so I had some light on them... need to pull the driver off to the side for ID and leave Franco watching the other 3... You have to appreciate the intelligence in these dogs to assist their handler,,, and it's not about killing people but it's a lot about keeping me from being killed...


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Can I weigh in here? My guys are pets with benefits. I give them a nice living and dont mind them returning the favor for me.
My very first ever dog as an adult on my own, saved me on am in the park(10am no less ) when a man popped outa the bushes at me, wearing binoculers (which made me realize he had tracked me from a womens bathroom I had used earlier in the jog that day) and charged me - I dropped the leash and ran (thankyou Americas Most Wanted, that was one of their tips that week- after 2 young girls were butchered after trying to run while dragging their onleash dogs behind them)-- and my 40lb pit mix ran at him barking (doubt she was going to actually do any damage)- that was enough for me to get away (I had just taken up jogging that month- first and last time "running for me thats for sure)...
I feel the same way about having my guys at the homestead.... they are doing what they do naturally (even its just being a 300plus lb dog pack and barking loudly)...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Waggintails said:


> Wow. Train a dog to kill or main and then lament the fact that you'd be taking away their work? Yes, dogs are generally eager to please, that's what makes it worse in my mind. I'm not going to agree with those of you who think nothing of using an animal/pet as a weapon. Today we have better options and I want my pets to be out of harms way if possible.


Dogs are built to kill and main. They are predators. What has a better nose for detecting bombs? What is more swift than a dog at full speed? What is as tenacious as a dog going for an assailant? What is as effective as 60-90lbs of pure muscle and adrenaline and teeth? Dogs doing what they were born and bred to do is a beautiful thing. I am thankful for the work that they do. 

If there was an easier way, the military and police would use it. The up keep of a working dog ain't nothing to shake a stick at. If they could make a person or robot do it as effectively, they would. It would be cheaper that way. 

What is better to do these jobs than a dog? What are our "other options"??? I'm genuinely curious.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> If I lived in an area where I felt a legitimate need to somehow involve my dog in my own protection and well-being ... I'd pull the plug and move to another, safer, saner locale. And quickly, at that.
> 
> JMPO.


I do agree with you there....I've lived in some nasty places because I had no other option financially. I do think the few attempts people made to mug me would have been deterred by having a dog present (at least a medium sized dog, if not an intimidating looking one), but I never quite felt the need to have "protection", dog, gun or otherwise (though my bf at the time insisted I carry pepper spray, which I never used, some basic kickboxing gave me enough to get out of the situation). The thing is, my grandparent's house (which we are buying and moving to soon), is in a very nice area, not super populated. They got broken into!, my guess is people somehow knew or suspected that they may have things of value in the house and it got targeted (about 30 years ago though...), either way, good or bad neighborhood doesn't necessarily guarantee that crime won't happen!



RabbleFox said:


> I recognize that it is your opinion but I would not call personal protection, military, or police dog work abusive.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog at work? Even just a video? They are so /thrilled/ to be there, doing their thing. It is their purpose. They save lives doing what they absolutely love. I would rather one dog die and save peoples lives than have people get blown to boys everyday.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you, I've seen that look of absolute joy in an IPO dog when it takes the sleeve and I will NEVER forget it. To say it is abusive to involve dogs in personal protection, or protection sports, or even any kind of "work" is a statement borne of ignorance. There are some dogs, to force them into the work would be cruel....some dogs aren't cut out for it, whether temperament wise, physically or personality, forcing them is wrong, but if they have an aptitude, and the basis work is all done positively, it is so good for the health (mental and physical!) of these dogs. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course, but to just insist it is cruel because it is a particular person's perception....I'll have to agree to disagree on that one.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> You bloviate moreso every post. When has that ever worked for you?
> If you're trained them to be a weapon to attack humans then you have.
> I don't care about your skin, or you for that matter. It isn't all about you.
> I said what I was talking about very plainly. Why put they in quotes. Yes, I have several shot guns and shoot them. What's wrong with you?
> ...





> You bloviate moreso every post. When has that ever worked for you?


Bloviate.... That is a good one.... A Harding fan? 



> If you're trained them to be a weapon to attack humans then you have.


Nope... Non mistreated...



> I said what I was talking about very plainly. Why put they in quotes. Yes, I have several shot guns and shoot them. What's wrong with you?


Because "they" is a favorite term for someone attempting to press their point of view without knowledge or fact. 



> I said what my point was. You can't read or receive information that disagrees with your mindset. People have a choice, animals don't. Once someone is ferreted out there's no reason to use the dog to attack them. Today, we have tasers, beanbags, OC spray, etc.


Oh I read quite well. You just made no point at all..... 
And you are wrong about an animal not having a choice. A dog that does not want to, will not go after a man...



> You laugh, chuckle and can't read. That explains why you believe what you do.


'

I laugh and chuckle because you are funny. And I believe what I do because it is fact and I know it to be so.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

> To say it is abusive to involve dogs in personal protection, or protection sports, or even any kind of "work" is a statement borne of ignorance.


:thumbup: Totally agree. My stepdad is a police officer and thanks to that I've been able to see k9s and the training they do since I was a kid, and that's a big reason on why I got into GSDs. They are so good at what they do and they love it  

Also when someone broke into my old apartment WHILE I WAS THERE, it was actually a pretty decent neighborhood. The neighborhood I'm in now is not good at all. But so far, no break ins, and I've lived here longer than I did the apartment! Wish I'd had my security system and my dogs then.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Sarah~ said:


> :thumbup: Totally agree. My stepdad is a police officer and thanks to that I've been able to see k9s and the training they do since I was a kid, and that's a big reason on why I got into GSDs. They are so good at what they do and they love it
> 
> Also when someone broke into my old apartment WHILE I WAS THERE, it was actually a pretty decent neighborhood. The neighborhood I'm in now is not good at all. But so far, no break ins, and I've lived here longer than I did the apartment! Wish I'd had my security system and my dogs then.


What Waggintails fails to realize.... Is that is a person is attacked while their dog is with them, the dog is already involved and has a stake in the situation whether they fight or not. And if a bad guy is intent on harming a person.... What are they going to do to the dog?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

neither trained nor expected however, could pretty much guarantee that Gem, Gyp and Paisley would run away barking. Paisley has a history of abuse and anything new or different is scary and should be avoided at all costs, if a robber went to her she would probably pee herself. Gem and Gypsy are naturally very suspicious, but they are not protective in that they would do anything, when they sense anything is up they glue themselves to my side and growl softly, but when push comes to shove they are more likely to run and hide. Happy however is very protective, she does not take her eyes off anyone who is around her home, she doesn't do anything, she just stays close, and keeps her eye on what they are doing. I am not sure she would protect my property, but family or my other pets? absolutely. years ago my brothers GF "attacked" him..Happy was on her in an instant. Happy has also protected my dogs from other dogs, we were out for a walk and an off leash dog thought taking on 6 dogs sounded like a great plan, Happy, who had just stood there calmly when the dog first approached, hurled herself in front of my other dogs and nailed the sucker as soon as he made his move. I don't expect her to protect my home, but I absolutely have used her as my personal protection


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Hah. Kairi is no protector. She would bark her brains out, blow her anal glands and run circles around them. I know because someone she KINDA met before came in without notice.. and that is what happened. 

My past dog, Jenna (Labx), was very good at sensing when someone was "off". She was a very friendly, social dog.. but some really "off" friend of my brothers came over. She tried to bite him. He was involved in some sketchy things it turns out. She also tried to bite someone from school who was bullying me. 

I don't expect my dog to protect me. A deterrent is definitely preferred. I'd love to have another Jenna that has a good sense for "off" people, but I doubt that will happen.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Interesting....

The cover dog on June National Geographic, was shot four times and still took down the shooter....



> The pup on cover, Layka, nearly became one of them when she was shot four times point-blank by enemy forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> She still managed to attack and subdue the shooter, the magazine said, saving her handler, Staff Sgt. Julian McDonald.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/war-dogs-dogs-serving-war-front-lines-article-1.1802110


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Clyde is a mastiff. His ancestors were estate guardians in England, and their ancestors were livestock guardians.

All we did to "train" him was to encourage protective drive when he shows it appropriately. He gets yelled at more for being Mr. Big Scary Dog than praised.

He absolutely would protect us. He would probably flee and hide if he had nobody to guard, but turns ferocious if he thinks my life is in danger.

An angry GSD tried to attack him and he stood his ground between me and his attacker. Not too long after, he ran inside our house, screaming, because a chihuahua mix tried to attack him while my dad was out with him 50 feet away.

For those who thinks having a police attack dog is inherently abusive, would you want to die while doing your life's passion? When a dog dies on the line of duty, he dies doing his greatest passion. If he wasn't that passionate, he would have run away screaming and never died in the first place.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

No, it's most definitely not my dog's job to protect me and my family. That said (and this may seem counterintuitive), I fully expect him to have the instincts for it, and would not be thrilled if he chose to meet my attacker with tail wags and kisses, or worse, ran away. 

Would I feel relieved? Probably, because most the time I care more for his safety than I do for my own. But happy that he lacks a fundamental instinct/drive that his breed should possess? No way. Obviously I would remove him from any such situation if I could, and keep him away from danger, but I'd expect him to act as a German Shepherd should. 

I do think that if I were in danger, he would become protective. He's very much my self appointed guardian, which I have never tried to correct, and is highly reactionary when I'm in the picture (though stable and level headed). In fact, early on, most of our training/behavioral challenges stemmed from me not recognizing and understanding his defensiveness. Now, it's mostly just noise and body blocking, but there have been two or three times when he's meant it, and with good reason. He has shown each time that I CAN rely on him to show enough aggression to chase someone off. And more importantly, I can also rely on him to keep his head, calm down when I tell him to, and still happily greet a stranger just 2 minutes later. Good nerves and good instincts make for a good guardian. Now, would he bite, engage, and fight? No idea, he's never been pushed even close to that far, nor does he have any training for it. Hopefully it will never come to that, and even if it does, I don't know what to expect from him. He is defensive, highly possessive, and when I am present those instincts are easily triggered - but without protection/bitesport training, who's to say how he'll react to a fight. Not that I'd let him engage an assailant, if I could help it.

Now, would he protect any member of my family? I have no idea about that, either. He's never shown the same protective/possessive/defensive behaviors with them, so it's up in the air. As someone who places her family's health and safety above all, I hope so, but there is really no saying. And if for some reason that qualifies as being cruel and abusive to my dog... then I don't really have anything to say to that. We're all dog lovers here, but very few people value their dogs over their family, and I'm not one of them. I'd risk my life for my dog, but not theirs. 

Lastly - would he protect property? I highly doubt it, and am completely fine with that. If someone broke in while no one was home, my dog would likely bark a few times, wag his tail, and find a place to continue his nap. He's not territorial with people, and never has been. He'll chew someone's face off if they tried to take something from his mouth, but everything else is fair game. He'll absolutely alert to people coming into the house, but that's when there's someone home. I used to think he was guardy over every room in the house - but later realized that it was only because I was in the room, too. When I left for my first year of college, my family all told me how good and quiet he was, never barking at them once LOL 



Hankscorpio said:


> I agree , I went to college in a *bad* town. Many of the off campus student rental houses were robbed. One friend had a big sweet gsd. Oddly her house was left alone and she slept better than her neighbors...


This is my situation as well. I would not say that it's a completely bad town, but it is sketchy, and there are a LOT of robberies. I see police cars with lights flashing on my street about 3-4 times a week, usually after midnight. Just earlier this year, my roommate told me that there was a shooting just one street over. There's a pretty big problem with students being assaulted on the edges of campus, too. 

Obviously, moving out of town is not an option, as I was not about to quit my university... but I've never run into any mishap (and I take my GSD with me everywhere, often to campus, too). There's only been one exception, and that was when me and my roommate were in the car sitting at a drive thru, and my dog could not be seen from the outside. The stranger approaching us asking for money had no problem seeing him a minute later though, when he shoved his head out the window barking and snarling.



JohnnyBandit said:


> I see comments that they want their dogs to be friendly to strangers, etc so therefore do not want a protective dog.
> 
> It is not an either or thing.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Anyone who's met my dog knows he's obnoxiously friendly. Selectively so, yes, but even if he's not interested in the person he's more than willing to accept hugs, pets, ear grabs, eye pokes, etc. (he meets a lot of kids, lol). We had a 4th of July party at our house with 50-60 people, and he was doing tricks and soliciting attention from anyone he could reach. He enjoys meeting new people and is safe to take anywhere, but I consider him protective.



Waggintails said:


> The question is why have a animal protect you when you can and should do a much better job yourself. The dog doesn't have many options and can easily be killed any number of ways. I never want my dogs aggressive towards humans and dislike people using them for weapons, period.


Um, no, I probably can't to be honest. For one, I'd be more likely to be chosen as a target sans dog (average height, average weight, a girl, usually wearing high heels, etc.). With a 80-90 lb and very loud German Shepherd Dog, not so much. Sure, dogs can't wield weapons, but if I'm being honest neither can I. I lack any amount of coordination and absolutely DO NOT trust myself with a gun. I have terrible aim and handling a gun would make me flat out nervous, especially if I were carrying one around on a day to day basis. A silly fear? Maybe, but I'm easily made nervous. 

My dog is more stable and reliable than I am, and if I had a gun I'd probably shoot myself in the foot (literally). I've done martial arts training, and I'm stronger than I look, but I've never had to use that and I have no idea if I'd just become paralyzed in fear in the face of danger. _I_ could easily be killed any number of ways. But when I have a dog, two is more than one, and my dog seems to thrive off of adrenaline and my fear.



Waggintails said:


> If you're trained them to be a weapon to attack humans then you have.
> 
> People have a choice, animals don't.


Except animals do. Dogs that go after assailants or are trained in bitesports are hardly put on a leash, picked up, and then thrown at the assailant/decoy. They go to them of their own accord, bite of their own accord, fight of their own accord. Have you ever watched dogs being trained in bitesports, or gone to a trial? I have, and those dogs have FUN. In fact, a lot of them go absolutely crazy trying to get onto the field to take a bite. They're screaming from their crates, pulling to get on the field, spinning in circles, fixating, etc. And these are pretty impeccably trained dogs. I've seen national competitors refuse to back off of a decoy or let go of the sleeve - and honestly, if they didn't want to be doing it, why would they be so insistent on it??


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## Kira (Jan 6, 2014)

I've 2 LGD's. Zeus is from a lineage where his mothers side have been working dogs for potentially a millenium (they've never been pets as far as anyone from Croatia where his mother came from can tell), and his father is only a 3rd generation pet. His brother Tigar (not sibbling) is 3rd or 4th generation pet and only first generation in Canada. Both are very mis-trustfull of strangers and would likely engage any stranger on our property. On the other hand, if we are not on our property (Dog park for instance), both dogs ignore strangers, and have occasionally allowed a stranger to pet them briefly. It's rather interesting to observe their behaviors, but it also requires a significant amount of attention and caution nowadays as society does not seem to tolerate these bahaviors, even on one's own property even though we live in the country on 3 acres of land.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

In a semi-related topic!
I remember when I first started looking into dogs and I wanted a dog that may be on the side of being naturally protective. I came across this video while I was looking at protective dog breeds and training and thought it was absolutely ridiculous.






I mean, I get that a not trained dog 9 times out of 10 will cower and runaway, but I also think it's a completely separate thing when protecting a random little girl, and protecting their owner. Plus the way he approaches the untrained dogs to fight is very non-threatening besides that he's holding a gun (the last one was the most threatening). I understand that the point was supposed to be that a trained dog will protect anyone, against any weapon, but I still thought it was a silly representation of untrained dogs.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

kdawnk said:


> In a semi-related topic!
> I remember when I first started looking into dogs and I wanted a dog that may be on the side of being naturally protective. I came across this video while I was looking at protective dog breeds and training and thought it was absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> 
> ...


This is why I don't agree with those "tests". I have mostly stayed out of this because I have my own thoughts and experiences. Duke, when he was well and in his right mind, was generally good with strangers when out of our home. He is protective of his home property and of his children, particularly my youngest son. However sometimes when my son would walk him he would become _concerned_ with a man and push my son in a different direction. If this man came too close he would put his body between the two. No one ever challenged him far enough for me to see if he would continue, I am grateful for that as I would rather my dog not bite a person. He was never this way with other children, no matter how rough they played with my son. He always seemed to know the difference between childish horseplay and what he perceived as a threat from adults. He did not however like the cable man who decided to hop our fence to install the neighbor's cable (the post is in our yard) while my son was out back playing alone. He tried and nearly succeeded in taking out my sliding glass door before I could get him restrained. I do not believe the poor cable man would have faired as well had Duke been outside with my son when he came over the fence. In the situation in the video I'm afraid Duke would have bitten the man, he doesn't like strange men to begin with and I don't think he would ever let a strange man pick up my son (he once made a move on my BIL when he picked my son up, to be honest I don't like my BIL either). 

I think I may have inadvertently turned "help me" into a game command for Remus though. Hubby and I play spar (we used to do martial arts together) and I will sometimes say "Help me Remus, Get him" which will then encourage Remus to jump up and push hubby in the chest or grab his hands. He doesn't bite hard, we are his family and he knows we are playing but I do wonder what he would if I were screaming it for real. He is also reasonably protective over the children at least where other animals are concerned.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Say Duke was put into the circumstances in the video.
He's given to some little stranger-girl for a test and a man approaches her and picks her up roughly and carries her away. 
Would he give it a second thought or would he back off?
Just a curious WWDD (What Would Duke Do) question.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

not much for the video,, GSD's are attached to their owners it's their passion... and you can't fake real life situation if your not sending fear for your life to your dog setting it up fake situations.. this is exactly how people screw up their dogs doing it by themselves it's not real and the dogs know it and don't understand.. Not a good representation....

Arka wouldn't allow it,, he's already proven that it affects him he loves kids and I don't have any of my own, he was raised with small children before he came to me.... Little girl petting him at training class when he was 7 months old and her mom was in a hurry for the girl stop petting already and lets leave, and the girl whinny protesting she didn't want to go, when the mom reached out to take the child's arm,... Arka wasn't happy how the mom was flustered reaching for the child,.. He didn't lash out he went stink eye hard, with that gutterial growl that will raise the hair on your neck.. Mom stopped,, Arka relaxed and the little girl said good bye Arka,, little soft eyes wagging to her as she walked to her mom... MOM got the hard stare lol lol ... ... I think the dogs would sense real fear in any human especially a child. You'll have to find a dog without training who hasn't been hen pecked all his life not to respond if you want a chance...


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

kdawnk said:


> Say Duke was put into the circumstances in the video.
> He's given to some little stranger-girl for a test and a man approaches her and picks her up roughly and carries her away.
> Would he give it a second thought or would he back off?
> Just a curious WWDD (What Would Duke Do) question.


See that is what makes the scenario not work, that the dog isn't attached to the child at all. Duke might protect the child from a strange man just because he likes kids as a general rule and doesn't like men. The idea of a man carrying off a screaming child might be too much for him but then again, not his kid, and the man may not set him off at all. Without testing it hard to say. I would want the guy in a protective suit just in case. The test probably should have been done with the owner of the dogs and the decoy should have been as aggressive as he was with the trained dogs.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Exactly. He was egging on the one trained dog when he approached with the bar. Yet when he approached the first untrained dog with his hands he was like, _"Ahhh. Gon' get you"_ picked her up and walked away.
I'm pretty 100% positive Sans would bark at the person and her hair would go up either way, with me or with a stranger, but I doubt she'd stand her ground for anyone but, _maybe_, me if the situation felt pressing enough.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

kdawnk said:


> In a semi-related topic!
> I remember when I first started looking into dogs and I wanted a dog that may be on the side of being naturally protective. I came across this video while I was looking at protective dog breeds and training and thought it was absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> 
> ...


The video is skewed to prove the point of view of the girl. No amount of training will ever make the three untrained dogs go... Those dogs are NEVER going to go. They were soft, submissive and showing all sorts of fear. 

And those 'trained" dogs would have gone without training. 

It is not a black or white thing. It is not as easy as train your dog and it will protect you... Don't train them and they will not protect you.

The right dog is going to go whether it is trained or not. And the wrong dog cannot be trained or forced to go. 

The purpose of training is not to teach the dog to attack. The dog either will or it won't. You cannot train that. Training gives the owner control, teaches the dog techniques to win, and builds intensity. 

If you only train a dog with a softer decoy method if the dog goes on a guy in real life and the guy puts up a hard fight, the dog could be in trouble. You want the dog to always win in training but you want to make it harder and harder to win. As first the decoy falls down at the slightest touch. In the end, the decoy should be kicking at the dog, hitting the dog with a stinger, throwing water balloons at the dog, shooting off a starter pistol, etc A finished dog, will run right through it all. 

Speaking of technique. Those were not protection dogs in that video. Those were sport dogs. And there is a difference. First thing you notice is the dogs attention instantly locked on to the sleeve. And that is what the dog immediately went after. If those were real life scenarios those would be three dead dogs. The dogs completely ignored the lethal weapons in the decoys hands. Sleeve biters look great in the ring but in the real world they get dead quick. A true protection dog would focus on the man, and would have gone on the side where the weapon was. Notice the decoy came in with weapon in a different hand? Each time to dogs ignored it and went for the sleeve. A protection dog should be taught that objects in the hands are dangerous. Those dogs were clueless.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

kdawnk said:


> In a semi-related topic!
> I remember when I first started looking into dogs and I wanted a dog that may be on the side of being naturally protective. I came across this video while I was looking at protective dog breeds and training and thought it was absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> 
> ...


Probably the best reaction you would get my dog to react with a stranger handling him would be him defending himself not the kid. And even than the kid would have no control over him in the situation and he wouldn't know how to act if someone just grabbed the kid. I know he will react aggressively if some strange man gets in his face with a stick,but in that situation I feel he would likely be too confused to do anything. Especially sense he may be fine with children but he doesn't have that love of them you see with other dogs. So I wonder if at least those un trained dogs would give more of a front if given a true test.
For these tests you would also need to know about what drives your dog runs on more,theres defence/fight,prey and territorial behaviors. Like mine would likely do the best with the defense/fight but poorly on a territorial test.

I watched some other dog intruder tests in the home,although with them they try to make the intruder as friendly and non threatening as possible. They would also try it on some odd dog breeds like Retrievers and a Shih-tzu. The Shih tzu was one of the more defensive ones. Now when un trained dogs do defend owners it is rare to see them actually latch on,it is usually a mix of fronting and a couple bites but that alone can send the bad guy away. And even with a dog like that you have to be very careful,you remember that viral video of a Rottweiler trying to protect its owner once arrested but shot multiple times once he lunged. Dogs don't just know these kind of differences,and some of the more protective dogs can be down right xenophobic. People understandable want a dog that is naturally friendly and good natured to everyone but when push comes to serve will go out protecting their family and home,and although their are some dogs that are like that,most are not and it is expecting a bit too much.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I can't stand that video....I saw it a while back and was excited, then I watched it. The approach to the trained and untrained dogs was SO different that it just doesn't apply!
Actually, there was a funny (sort of) moment at an IPO seminar.....there was one dog there that the helper/seminar guy was demonstrating with. It was one of the member's "trained" dogs, it was actually titled IPO1. It wasn't acting drivey enough for the guy's satisfaction (I'll admit, it was pretty bland....), anyway, he took the agitation stick and started waving it at the owner/handler, who didn't expect it, and though I don't think she was scared of being hurt, she was surprised so she squealed a little bit.....the dog backed away. There are dogs there that in those circumstances would have (understandably) at least taken an aggressive stance if not gone for it. Of course that's also the difference between IPO and "true" protection training....no offence to those in IPO, but there are some dogs that are just taught to go through the motions and don't really have "it".....though one could suggest that an untrained dog that has it, would react more protectively.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

kdawnk said:


> In a semi-related topic!
> I remember when I first started looking into dogs and I wanted a dog that may be on the side of being naturally protective. I came across this video while I was looking at protective dog breeds and training and thought it was absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> 
> ...


Yah my 'untrained dog" went ballistic ran to the front window barking when she heard the dogs barking on the video- I am with JB either the dog has the potential, or doesnt....


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> Yah my 'untrained dog" went ballistic ran to the front window barking when she heard the dogs barking on the video- I am with JB either the dog has the potential, or doesnt....


All dogs have the potential, like people, to come to a defense. It's just a matter of degrees. Some people would be quick, others, not so much. Training a dog to go up against an armed human is cruel and stupid.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Waggintails said:


> All dogs have the potential, like people, to come to a defense. It's just a matter of degrees. Some people would be quick, others, not so much. Training a dog to go up against an armed human is cruel and stupid.


How is it "cruel and stupid"? Honestly if it came down to me being pinned down with a gun to my face I would be really happy f my trained dog went after the assailant and helped me out a bit. I would also rather send my dog after a armed man than me go at the person with no weapon(I don't just carry a gun in my pocket). I would absolutely be devastated if my dog was shot or stabbed etc but and this will sound harsh its better my dog than my kid or me or my spouse. Will I be backing my dog up 100% YES but then again I do have family that needs me. I don't have a dog trained in protection currently. But I do hav a dog that is really protective and I have little doubt that she will protect me if needed. I'm only 17 and alone a lot and I like having that extra security. Do I have weapons in the house? Yes. out and about while walking? No. 


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

momtolabs said:


> How is it "cruel and stupid"? Honestly if it came down to me being pinned down with a gun to my face I would be really happy f my trained dog went after the assailant and helped me out a bit. I would also rather send my dog after a armed man than me go at the person with no weapon(I don't just carry a gun in my pocket). I would absolutely be devastated if my dog was shot or stabbed etc but and this will sound harsh its better my dog than my kid or me or my spouse. Will I be backing my dog up 100% YES but then again I do have family that needs me. I don't have a dog trained in protection currently. But I do hav a dog that is really protective and I have little doubt that she will protect me if needed. I'm only 17 and alone a lot and I like having that extra security. Do I have weapons in the house? Yes. out and about while walking? No.


If you were pinned down and your sizable dog didn't help, something is wrong. Training or not. You do NOT go after an armed man, weapons are for self defense unless you are a criminal and having a dog do it for you is cruel. You can carry OC spray if you are too young for a carry permit or prefer not to be armed.


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Waggintails said:


> All dogs have the potential, like people, to come to a defense. It's just a matter of degrees. Some people would be quick, others, not so much. Training a dog to go up against an armed human is cruel and stupid.


So, then, I take it you are against dog sports? All dogs have potential for something. A rat terrier was bred for exterminating rats. It could get bit by the rat in the process and suffer undue pain, is this not cruel and stupid? Should dogs only be expected to be lap/couch warmers?


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

WonderBreadDots said:


> So, then, I take it you are against dog sports? All dogs have potential for something. A rat terrier was bred for exterminating rats. It could get bit by the rat in the process and suffer undue pain, is this not cruel and stupid? Should dogs only be expected to be lap/couch warmers?


Killing is a sport? WTF? Yes, I am absolutely against training a dog to kill anything. I know what RT were bred for, today we have more effective means of exteminating rats. That's why they aren't used for that anymore. My couch warmers are companions that serve as a very good first alert. That's what dogs do, that's natural to them. If you have to train them to do something, like become a weapon and kill or maim a human, then it is NOT natural to them. Duh. Some of you belong in the Bronze Age.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Echo (PWD) will put the smack down if needed. I did not train her to do that, but that's part of the characteristics of the breed- they swam nets in/out of the water, couriored messages between ships, and guarded the boat. 

She proved this one day. We have a house sitting in the middle of 5.25 acres that is completely fenced and has a livestock gate across the driveway with a sign that says "Dogs in yard, keep gate closed." 
WELL. The mailman was foolish enough to walk inside the gate with a box and the rest of my mail (thanks!) and ignore the sign. I was on the other side of the house, which is down hill from the driveway, so I can't see anyone coming in. So I'm happily working in the garden last year, and the dogs are wandering about the yard watching me and sniffing all all that fun stuff they do. When all of a sudden I hear Echo let out her banshee scream. "REEEEEEEEEEEEE!! WARF WARF WARF WARF!!!!"

I come running and she has the mailman backed up against the side of the house, BUT she was 6'' away from him barking and holding him with the most fierce eyes and facial expression you ever did see. She did NOT touch him (phew!) and he said he was ok. The second I said "It's ok, Echo, say Hello!" she softened and wagged and licked his hand. 

So it's nice to know you have a dog who has good judgement like that and could be a good deterrent to someone with bad intentions.

She is inside the house, though 90% of the day and never overnight.

My other 3 will bark like crazy and my chihuahua will bite LOL. But she is only 6" tall.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

My husband is convinced that if either one of us (or the cats, for that matter) were in real danger, Annabel would show some protection. I'm not convinced. I mean, really all she would need to do is use her big girl bark a few times, that even startles me when she uses it, but I really don't think she'd ever actually go after anyone, even if they were threatening or hurting us.

The most I can see her doing is snapping and lunging, getting really agitated and frustrated. But then, she was built and bred for rescues, not protection. I would imagine that's a completely different mindset and a _completely_ different set of traits to breed for.


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Waggintails said:


> Killing is a sport? WTF? Yes, I am absolutely against training a dog to kill anything. I know what RT were bred for, today we have more effective means of exteminating rats. That's why they aren't used for that anymore. My couch warmers are companions that serve as a very good first alert. That's what dogs do, that's natural to them. If you have to train them to do something, like become a weapon and kill or maim a human, then it is NOT natural to them. Duh. Some of you belong in the Bronze Age.


Then what to do with dogs that have a high drive, like say, a Belgian Malinois? This dog wouldn't be satisfied as a couch warmer. In fact, the dog would most likely have a hard life just being expected to only be a first alert animal and playing fetch in the yard. If you have ever witnessed working dogs work you would be surprised at how much they enjoy it.

It's great that you expect your dogs to only be companions, however, others expect more. That doesn't make them barbaric. Specific breeds were bred for a specific purpose. Why not tap into that and train the dog if it has the potential?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Dog killing rats (quick, efficient, no collateral damage) = cruel
Poisoning rats (and potentially non-targeted species collaterally) with anticoagulants or neurotoxins/drowning/other exterminating methods = not cruel

lol wut.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> If you were pinned down and your sizable dog didn't help, something is wrong. Training or not. You do NOT go after an armed man, weapons are for self defense unless you are a criminal and having a dog do it for you is cruel. You can carry OC spray if you are too young for a carry permit or prefer not to be armed.


This is not accurate there are a lot of breeds that it would not be likely for them to step in. There are some dogs that would likely run away


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> All dogs have the potential, like people, to come to a defense. It's just a matter of degrees. Some people would be quick, others, not so much. Training a dog to go up against an armed human is cruel and stupid.


 No they don't. A lot of dogs will run away.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

No, I don't expect them to have to serve and protect me or our property. The boys would probably accept the task if needed. Lars was ready to take on the aggressive stranger in his ATTS Temperament Test which actually surprised me. Ocean and his generations upon generations of IPOIII dogs behind him would probably give in to his ancestral drive to protect and neutralize a threat. 

Mr. Boats, his military training, and his numerous guns would be what someone would really need to be worried about around here. LOL


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Waggintails said:


> Killing is a sport? WTF? Yes, I am absolutely against training a dog to kill anything. I know what RT were bred for, today we have more effective means of exteminating rats. That's why they aren't used for that anymore. My couch warmers are companions that serve as a very good first alert. That's what dogs do, that's natural to them. If you have to train them to do something, like become a weapon and kill or maim a human, then it is NOT natural to them. Duh. Some of you belong in the Bronze Age.



This is very entertaining. A protection dog is not trained to kill. It is trained to stop the threat.

And I love the Jack Russell comment. Rat poison? Really? A dog gets a rat it is dead in a couple of seconds. Almost instantly. But you think rat poison is a better option? Rat poison can take days. The rats carry the poison off exposing other animals to it. Other animals find it on their own. So not only do the rats die a slow nasty death. But so do squirrels birds cats dogs raccoons etc. Anyone that has pets and puts out rat poison is asking for their pets to die. 

You probably should not have pets with your opinions about things. And you certainly should not own dogs if you actually believe the things you are saying


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Waggintails said:


> Killing is a sport? WTF? Yes, I am absolutely against training a dog to kill anything. I know what RT were bred for, today we have more effective means of exteminating rats. That's why they aren't used for that anymore. My couch warmers are companions that serve as a very good first alert. That's what dogs do, that's natural to them. If you have to train them to do something, like become a weapon and kill or maim a human, then it is NOT natural to them. Duh. Some of you belong in the Bronze Age.


LOL. Good luck getting my RT to stop hunting. Trained? No. They go out in the woods or see small rodents in the house and kill them. It's what they DO and good luck getting them to stop. Also not a single one of my dogs -or many dog breeds- would want to be a couch warmer. I would consider keeping a lot of breeds AS a couch warmer outright cruel to the dog. Your level of ignorance on the subject's awful amusing, though.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Watson is a good watch dog. He doesn't bark at anything and everything, but he will bark if he thinks someone is outside or at the door, especially after dark. He has quite a deep scary bark too (in contrast to his excited bark which is high pitched and makes him sound like he's about 15lbs).

He would be a terrible guard dog. He would either love the burgler, or run away if the person seemed scary. He might bark while moving away though, which could seem scary enough.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> A dog gets a rat it is dead in a couple of seconds. Almost instantly. But you think rat poison is a better option? Rat poison can take days. The rats carry the poison off exposing other animals to it. Other animals find it on their own. So not only do the rats die a slow nasty death. But so do squirrels birds cats dogs raccoons etc. Anyone that has pets and puts out rat poison is asking for their pets to die.



And the dogs, cats, birds of prey, whatever other wildlife eats the poisoned rat just became poisoned and also die. Yeah, that's not cruel at ALL.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And I love the Jack Russell comment. Rat poison? Really? A dog gets a rat it is dead in a couple of seconds. Almost instantly. But you think rat poison is a better option? Rat poison can take days. The rats carry the poison off exposing other animals to it. Other animals find it on their own. So not only do the rats die a slow nasty death. But so do squirrels birds cats dogs raccoons etc. Anyone that has pets and puts out rat poison is asking for their pets to die.


That's what I said! (With 10% more snark.)


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Waggintails said:


> Killing is a sport? WTF? Yes, I am absolutely against training a dog to kill anything. I know what RT were bred for, today we have more effective means of exteminating rats. That's why they aren't used for that anymore. My couch warmers are companions that serve as a very good first alert. That's what dogs do, that's natural to them. If you have to train them to do something, like become a weapon and kill or maim a human, then it is NOT natural to them. Duh. Some of you belong in the Bronze Age.


So dogs, who are descended from wolves, don't naturally hunt game animals that weigh 100-300 lbs? Do you realize deer and antelope are natural prey items for wolves worldwide? Do you also realize barking is actually an activity limited to juvenile canids in the wild; that we actually bred dogs to unnaturally bark as adults?

Most protection dogs would gladly go mess up a human in the right situation, training or no training. That's what comes naturally to them. They go take down that large "stag" charging at their companion and enjoy the thrill of the hunt just like their ancestral wolves.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> And the dogs, cats, birds of prey, whatever other wildlife eatthe poisoned rat just became poisoned and also die. Yeah, that's not cruel at ALL.


Yes if we went out and fully detailed the path of death a little rat poison can do we would max out the bandwidth of this forum. One rat bait station has the potential to kill hundreds of animals. And this person claims to be an an animal lover.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> LOL. Good luck getting my RT to stop hunting. Trained? No. They go out in the woods or see small rodents in the house and kill them. It's what they DO and good luck getting them to stop. Also not a single one of my dogs -or many dog breeds- would want to be a couch warmer. I would consider keeping a lot of breeds AS a couch warmer outright cruel to the dog. Your level of ignorance on the subject's awful amusing, though.


This would be a good time to link my barn hunt thread. 

Or even better. How about some videos of dogs catching wild hogs.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> That's what I said! (With 10% more snark.)


I see that now and yes you had more snark than I did.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Yes if we went out and fully detailed the path of death a little rat poison can do we would max out the bandwidth of this forum. One rat bait station has the potential to kill hundreds of animals. And this person claims to be an an animal lover.


Honestly, I can usually twist my head around to understanding the opposing view point, but in this case I'm just shaking my head. The rat poison thing is the most awful of it, but even then there's a level of delusion of what dogs are and what they DO that sort of bewilders me. Dogs should, apparently, be couch warmers - every last one of them. That's the life they deserve. If I tried that with my dogs they'd go NUTS from boredom and eat the couch.

I wonder if using dogs to herd is cruel - and if so, is it cruel to the dog or the livestock?


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Waggintails said:


> Killing is a sport? WTF? Yes, I am absolutely against training a dog to kill anything. I know what RT were bred for, today we have more effective means of exteminating rats. That's why they aren't used for that anymore. My couch warmers are companions that serve as a very good first alert. That's what dogs do, that's natural to them. If you have to train them to do something, like become a weapon and kill or maim a human, then it is NOT natural to them. Duh. Some of you belong in the Bronze Age.


I could be wrong here and I'm sure someone will correct me but most protection dogs already have the instinct to , well protect. The " training" is done to shape the behavior to help the dog not get hurt. For example learning how to use there body to take down the bad guy. There not trained to "maul" anybody just to get the bad guy away from you so you can get away. 

And using dogs to kill rats is a lot more humane then poison. Heck even my cat attacks them then plays with it before actually killing it. My dog? Catches,shakes its dead. 


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

My dogs ARE couch warmers and Penny killed a mouse yesterday. And a gopher last week. And. . .well, she's a critter killer. I don't think I could stop her unless I kept her in the house all the time. Even then she'd probably get a house mouse. I don't LIKE it really; I'd be perfectly happy if she left them alone, but it's a dog thing and I don't let it bother me too much. And when a rat was pulling all the insulation out of my garage walls, I can't say I was sad when I found its body in the yard . I kind of wish she'd eat them, though, so I wouldn't have to dispose of the bodies.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Unless I missed it, I don't think the poster ever mentioned actually _poisoning_ the rats.

There are effective, humane traps available for use that won't endanger the rat or any other animals in the process. Just sayin'.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Sure.

What do you do with the rat once you have it? 

Releasing it, yeah. Releasing it where? 

And what do you do with a barn infested by rodents, eating your livestock's food and creating a health hazard, once you've caught all of the dozens-through-hundreds with a humane trap?

Barn cats? Cool. Why are they exempt from 'it's cruel to use animals to KILL'?

Or if it's okay to kill them via something other than posion, I guess there are snap traps, but that's not real effective in a barn situation since it again presents a danger to livestock and other wildlife.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> What do you do with the rat once you have it?
> 
> Releasing it, yeah. Releasing it where?
> 
> And what do you do with a barn infested by rodents, eating your livestock's food and creating a health hazard, once you've caught all of the dozens-through-hundreds with a humane trap?


Honestly, I don't know what you do with them. Meat processing facilities nationwide seem to have no problems dealing with them after the fact. And I suspect poisoning is not permitted in that environment. Again, just sayin' about the poisoning thing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Honestly, I don't know what you do with them. Meat processing facilities nationwide seem to have no problems dealing with them after the fact. And I suspect poisoning is not permitted in that environment. Again, just sayin' about the poisoning thing.





> Rodent control should include a combination of tools such as outside baits in secure/tamperproof stations, inside traps and large glue boards.
> 
> ...
> Again, all traps and secure/tamperproof bait boxes should be regularly inspected and maintained. Number them and map them out. The bait placement will probably have to be increased during the winter months if activity increases. Inspecting the grounds for Norway rat burrows is very important. Burrows can be treated with rodenticides or toxic tracking powder, but this is a job for the professional.


From here: http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/m...ls-for-food-processing-plants-and-warehouses/

They are (or at least were) using both poison and glue traps. I found that same information on several sites. Doesn't make it the universal truth but falls in line of what I know from when my husband was an engineer at Pepsi. I don't think I'd consider either one humane. There are really limited numbers of ways to deal with a large scale rodent problem. Humane traps DO exist, but really don't work when you're talking numbers.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Unless I missed it, I don't think the poster ever mentioned actually _poisoning_ the rats.
> 
> There are effective, humane traps available for use that won't endanger the rat or any other animals in the process. Just sayin'.


Humane traps don't exactly _exterminate_ rats, though.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Honestly, I don't know what you do with them. Meat processing facilities nationwide seem to have no problems dealing with them after the fact. And I suspect poisoning is not permitted in that environment. Again, just sayin' about the poisoning thing.


I'm sure food processing plants are taking the time and money to humane shipping boxes of rats out to the country for retirement. 


Or, tossing them, dead or alive, stuck to glue traps into the dumpster. Whatevs.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Meat processing facilities nationwide seem to have no problems dealing with them after the fact. And I suspect poisoning is not permitted in that environment.


Gross- are we saying that they grind them up into meat?....

Ok tossing them dying into a dumpster seems more likely scenario...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Gross- are we saying that they grind them up into meat?....


No, she was saying that they had other methods of pest control.

They don't, really. Snap traps, glue boards inside, poison bait stations out.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

CptJack said:


> No, she was saying that they had other methods of pest control.
> 
> They don't, really. Snap traps, glue boards inside, poison bait stations out.


ok whew?!............


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Well you know what they say about hot dogs......


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

lol ........ .......


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

all the dogs are good mouse/rat catching, NO mess to clean up and free protein meal. I often catch the chickens, guineas, and surprised the ducks with a mouse.. Plus the resident rat snake in the barn.... Priceless to have a cat ... Thankful for what they do....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ND


petpeeve said:


> Unless I mhad it, I don't think the poster ever mentioned actually _poisoning_ the rats.
> 
> There are effective, humane traps available for use that won't endanger the rat or any other animals in the process. Just sayin'.


 Traps do not do that great of a job. Of the options options business use poison is probably the best with glue traps next and traditional traps last. In a farming environment you can use traps forever and not put much of a dent in your rat population. The traps will keep it in check at best. You will have ebbs and flows. When the young rats leave the nest you will catch more the ones that survive are dang near impossible to catch. So you kill the inexperienced ons but are educating the others at the same time. 

But a couple of decent rat dogs and a human helper can felt put on a rat killin'. 

If the is a significant,population around a barn or coops. A couple of good dogs can find and kill fifty or more in a couple of hours. If you have burrows and with rats you usually Do, a stick a water hose down the holes and it gets wild quick. Two dogs will not be enough.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

This is what a decent dog can accomplish on rats in a very short amount of time.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yep. Jack, Frost and I have cleaned out a few barns for people. It was disturbing at first but the sheer JOY the dogs got out of it was more than enough compensation for any squeamishness on my part. I suspect come fall Jack and I will be playing that game again.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

my yard always has something dead waiting for me to pick up or another dog to eat it. Tonight bounty was a gopher, mole, and a couple of baby birds. Live animal traps used those before, not for relocating but as a way to drown the creature. 

Size of dog does not matter for protection. I have a dog that would love everyone, his weight is around 90 pounds. Even if someone posed a danger the dog would only see it as object that has hands. to him hands are made for petting. He is one of those dogs that constantly will nudge your hand to do a self petting session. His way of protecting me is to distract the bad guy with love. My smallest dog at 4 pounds would constantly go in for a bite and dart away before a kick could be placed. His way of protecting me would be through annoyance. 

I do wonder what my dogs would do if someone was to break in or try to harm us. The internet is full of stories of sweet tempered dogs protecting their families from danger.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

There was a fly in the house and I said "Eko, get it!" He caught it and ate it. Someone call AC, I've taught my dog to kill for fun!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> No, she was saying that they had other methods of pest control.
> 
> They don't, really. Snap traps, glue boards inside, poison bait stations out.


Straying a bit from the o/t, but. 

I doubt any of the larger scale operations are using snap traps, glue boards or poison, when the industry has this general, more modern type at it's disposal. http://www.victorpest.com/store/commercial-mouse-control/bm312 If you click on the reviews tab, you can read how effective they are at catching rodents in large quantities. These are the type I regularly see at supermarkets, warehouses, and meat processing facilities etc. 

Also for what it's worth it's he not she :wave:. Shocking, I know. lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Straying a bit from the o/t, but.
> 
> I doubt any of the larger scale operations are using snap traps, glue boards or poison, when the industry has this general, more modern type at it's disposal. http://www.victorpest.com/store/commercial-mouse-control/bm312 If you click on the reviews tab, you can read how effective they are at catching rodents in large quantities. These are the type I regularly see at supermarkets, warehouses, and meat processing facilities etc.
> 
> Also for what it's worth it's he not she :wave:. Shocking, I know. lol



Whoops, sorry about that. I admittedly default to assuming most gender neutral names belong to women online. I should work on it.

And - yeah, but did you read this?



> To increase the efficacy of this trap, use it with the pre-baited BM309 Victor Glue Board. The Glue Board easily slides into the trap to help catch the mice.


So, yeah. Still glue boards in there, I'd wager in 95% of cases. Not because I absolutely know, mind you (though I do know what Pepsi does and it's fairly large scale!) but because I can not imagine what they would do with the live mice they catch. Also? The most they mention is 13. 13 is not a large number of mice. Neither is 1-3 a night, really.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

But still, no poison. Which was kinda my original point.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> But still, no poison. Which was kinda my original point.


Nope, no poison. 

Still not more humane than a snapped neck. Definitely better for the environment, just... not really for the mice.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Remaru said:


> This is why I don't agree with those "tests". I have mostly stayed out of this because I have my own thoughts and experiences. Duke, when he was well and in his right mind, was generally good with strangers when out of our home. He is protective of his home property and of his children, particularly my youngest son. However sometimes when my son would walk him he would become _concerned_ with a man and push my son in a different direction. If this man came too close he would put his body between the two. No one ever challenged him far enough for me to see if he would continue, I am grateful for that as I would rather my dog not bite a person. He was never this way with other children, no matter how rough they played with my son. He always seemed to know the difference between childish horseplay and what he perceived as a threat from adults. He did not however like the cable man who decided to hop our fence to install the neighbor's cable (the post is in our yard) while my son was out back playing alone. He tried and nearly succeeded in taking out my sliding glass door before I could get him restrained. I do not believe the poor cable man would have faired as well had Duke been outside with my son when he came over the fence. In the situation in the video I'm afraid Duke would have bitten the man, he doesn't like strange men to begin with and I don't think he would ever let a strange man pick up my son (he once made a move on my BIL when he picked my son up, to be honest I don't like my BIL either).
> 
> I think I may have inadvertently turned "help me" into a game command for Remus though. Hubby and I play spar (we used to do martial arts together) and I will sometimes say "Help me Remus, Get him" which will then encourage Remus to jump up and push hubby in the chest or grab his hands. He doesn't bite hard, we are his family and he knows we are playing but I do wonder what he would if I were screaming it for real. He is also reasonably protective over the children at least where other animals are concerned.


The protectiveness your dog has over the kids is very similar to what we seen in Toby. When my daughter was still a newborn, Toby would go nuts, biting, jumping, and being very in-your-face to friends and family who picked up my daughter. He is still like this, but not nearly as bad and I think it's an age thing (her age, not his). He is also very mindful of her - she's starting to learn to crawl and he will lay with her and let her pull herself up on him and he might stand beside her while she holds onto his back in a standing position... but still if friends/family try to pick her up, he's pretty in-your-face about it, but not nearly as bad as when she was a newborn.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yep. Jack, Frost and I have cleaned out a few barns for people. It was disturbing at first but the sheer JOY the dogs got out of it was more than enough compensation for any squeamishness on my part. I suspect come fall Jack and I will be playing that game again.


Aw man. Merlin and I are jealous. We love closed to barn country now so maybe we will see if someone is willing to let him try.


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## buoysmom (Nov 19, 2008)

Ha, ha, ha, no. Tango will bark at the door whenever someone comes up, but that is just because he is dying to get out there and lick them and get pets from someone new. I doubt his bark would scare anyone away, but the most timid of thieves. He's small and while he isn't yappy, you can tell it's not a big, deep bark. The thief would probably steal my things AND my dogs.


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

Nooope. He loves everyone and everything. 
When he meets a stranger, he treats them as if they're a family member he hasn't seen in a while. Very wiggley and happy.

However, he is a good "watch" dog. He is quiet. He won't bark without reason, only barks when someone unfamiliar, or something "suspicious" is going on outside our place.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Update! 
OK my giant schnauzer passed the test (unfortuantly).
Plumber, who she was OK with (well charged but sat infront of him and stopped when I asked her to)outside, got confused (its an old house with back corriders) and he went in thru the back door and got turned around and ended up opening the back hall way door that opens to the front living room where I was eating lunch. Layla charged him tight space and went straight for his balls, without hesitation, sounding like I have never really heard her before (I had her with me to keep her outa of his way as he was fixing something in the back inlaw unit).....
Luckily he had his tool box in one hand and got it between her mouth and his privates and I had her off of him in a couple seconds (but ya know how long those kinda seconds feel).
Am a little shaken actually, its a big responsibility.......
thats all I gotta share for now....


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