# "Assertive" "authoritative" training



## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

Hello all! My name is Rebecca and I am a first time dog owner. I was doing research for a perspective addition to my family in the very very distant future. 

I currently have a young pomeranian whose just the light of my life. He's sweet, quiet (which is rare for poms), obedient, and my best friend. However, in the future I'd like for him to have a much bigger "little" brother or sister.

What I mean when I say that is I am doing research into breeds like a Doberman Pinscher, Rhodesian Ridgeback, German Shepherd, or Mastiff. 
Pretty different from my sweet little pom.



ANYWAY to the point!!
Through my research I keep running into phrases like "assertive" or "authoritative" training. Apparently most of the breeds I've selected to research are stubborn and willful...I'm just wondering, to any large dog owners who may have similar breeds, what does this mean exactly? to me any training is authoritative...? I just want to know some of the techniques others have used so I can have a better grasp on what these phrases mean and what training a larger and maybe more difficult to handle dog will all entail.

thank you much!


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

It means to me to be confident. If you feel confident the dog will see that and respond to it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I have a Rhodesian and a pit bull.

I don't use anything like what the internet/tv trainers/similar describe as either "authoritative" or "assertive" training. That doesn't mean I let them get away with being brats. It means that in general, those terms have been co-opted to mean training based on physical corrections, showing a dog who is boss and being a "pack leader"

Larger breeds may require different training tactics from a physical safety perspective- such as stronger supervision around smaller dogs or cats. Another example is that I'll use a prong collar on a large dog that doesn't yet know leash walking for MY safety and the safety of the public since the dog has the strength to pull me down and drag me while a small breed I'd start on a harness. I fully admit it is a training shortcut in some ways and I wouldn't start a puppy that way, but for an adult large dog, safety comes first on walks. 
Larger breeds do need to be taught early not to jump on people and other such behaviors that some people let little dogs get away with. Some large breeds maybe have enough prey drive not to be safe around small dogs and of course even the friendliest could hurt a small dog by accident if they were playing hard. My RR has interacted with dogs as small at 5-6 lbs but that was on-leash and controlled sniffing and side by side walking. He loves puppies and will lay down on the ground for them to sniff and climb on him. The smallest dogs I let him run loose with are a 14 lb JRT (tough little guy) and a 20 lbs leggy whippet type mix. 

But in general, especially if starting from puppyhood, then redirection and positive reinforcement and setting fair boundaries works with nearly any dog.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Confident, don't let them get away with stuff (if you ask for a sit, and they blow you off, you don't have to be angry/mean, but make sure they don't blow you off and make sure they listen and sit), be consistent (always have same rules, don't be flaky).


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## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

That makes sense and is very helpful. Thanks much 
I guess I was just confused...people treat little dogs and big dogs so much differently but I didn't know how the training principles differed. 

Thank you Shell, that was really helpful. One of the motivators to getting my pomeranian first was because I didn't know if I could control a large breed since he is my first dog. I am confident that I understand the principles of training in general but I'm still a little unsure as to my ability. I think starting from a puppy is the best idea for me...I just hear stories about people being unable to control their dogs and the dogs being euthanized because of it...I'd feel like such a failure and I don't want to take on the responsibility of a larger, stronger dog if I don't find myself capable. 

And I think I should note that even though I have a small dog he definitely does not have a lot of the privileges afforded to small dogs. He doesn't pull on a leash, doesn't jump up for treats (he'll wait patiently for you to deliver them) doesn't growl or lunge, and doesn't behave inappropriately around larger dogs (ie, annoying them).


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Robbi said:


> That makes sense and is very helpful. Thanks much
> I guess I was just confused...people treat little dogs and big dogs so much differently but I didn't know how the training principles differed.
> 
> Thank you Shell, that was really helpful. One of the motivators to getting my pomeranian first was because I didn't know if I could control a large breed since he is my first dog. I am confident that I understand the principles of training in general but I'm still a little unsure as to my ability. I think starting from a puppy is the best idea for me...I just hear stories about people being unable to control their dogs and the dogs being euthanized because of it...I'd feel like such a failure and I don't want to take on the responsibility of a larger, stronger dog if I don't find myself capable.
> ...


I don't think it's a small dog VS big dog thing, but more a personality thing.

My little dog cannot be treated like the way most little dogs are treated. Without boundaries he gets manipulative, bossy, and possessive. He gets the same treatment as my big dog fosters.

He gets rules and structure because with a dog like him, you will end up with a really nasty dog on your hands if you are willy nilly and inconsistent.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

The only real difference I see between big and small is the physical side of it which is what I think Shell was getting at. They are much stronger and I think at some point they definitely realize they are stronger than you and may test you. But otherwise I agree training can be the same for a small or large dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have 13(ish), 15, 20, 25 lb dogs and 120lb dog.

Yes, I absolutely am required in some ways to give the big dog less leeway - because he can pull me on my face down the street if, for instance, he's not walking properly. He can knock me over if he jumps up on me - and I encourage the little ones to jump up because it makes clipping collars and untangling leashes easier (no bending down). 

But the same rules, structure, training methods (overall) apply to the 13lb dog as do the 120lber. The physical disadvantage I'm at with the big guy just means that I will, like Shell, sometimes use a prong collar in bad conditions with him, and that jumping up isn't allowed. Oh, and he doesn't sleep in the bed. 

Otherwise: He's a dog. The little dogs are dogs. Everyone has a different personality and learning style that requires flexibility in training and life. Nobody gets away with being a brat, regardless, and no one's 'cracked down on' just because they're big.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Sarah~ said:


> The only real difference I see between big and small is the physical side of it which is what I think Shell was getting at. They are much stronger and I think at some point they definitely realize they are stronger than you and may test you. But otherwise I agree training can be the same for a small or large dog.


 Completely agree here, and Shell explained it very well. Large dogs are just that....large, it is a physical thing and might require some different actual physical handling, but the actual training approaches can be the same (keeping in mind specific dog differences). There are some developmental differences to watch for, but that is more of a health/feeding issue to watch for, that only affects training if you are training something at a young age that could be physically high impact. I'd want to teach some self control stuff earlier with a larger dog...just because self-control issues (like jumping up, lunging etc), can cause more significant issues earlier with a larger dog than with a smaller one. 

As for being "assertive" or authoritative, its the same small or large, its about keeping boundaries and rules in place consistently (to me anyway). No allowing breaking rules 'just this once', because they are cute, or because you don't feel like enforcing (enforcing as in taking the training opportunity to deal with it). If rules are to be broken, you set the terms....(ie: not allowed on the bed perhaps....unless invited etc). Not coddling when something makes the dog uncomfortable....work on it instead (like don't cuddle and coo, give treats if your dog is scared of thunder....desensitize instead). To me, and I think to pretty much everybody on this forum, assertive and authority don't mean quite the same thing as some TV shows have implied they mean. 

If you haven't read up on "Nothing In Life Is Free" yet, it is worth checking out....to me it is a very solid basis for the whole "assertive" thing. I find it the most constructive way to "assert my authority" if that makes sense (which I'm sure it will once you get the concept).


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Certain individual dogs require more boundaries and rules and require you to be more consistent with them. I'm not even sure it's always a breed thing but just a personality one. I have to 'ride herd' on Mia a lot because without the feedback and consistency she will walk all over you. Summer is the opposite. She is just very well behaved and accepts rules at face value. Mia is always always trying to get around them. 

But it's not a big vs small thing, it's an individual thing. There will be some differences in handling a bigger dog vs a smaller one but even then I had a small/medium terrier thing that required a lot more work that way because she was so strong and forceful. She about yanked my arm out of the socket more than once. I'm blaming the terrier tenacity lol. 

The thing I'd worry about is keeping your pom safe. Any major size difference has the potential for trouble so just keep it in mind. All interactions should be supervised and they shouldn't be out together while you're gone.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

i have a German Shepherd. i didn't have to do anything to be assertive
or authoritative. consistancy is key to trainining. i never used the NILIF
method. actually i used MILIF (Most In Life Is Free). i give my dog treats
rubs and praise for no reason other than to do it or say it. he doesn't
have to do anything for praise, treats, rubbing, etc. through training,
feeding, general care, quality time, socializing a bond is established
and you don't have to do anything special to have your place in the pack.
a dog doesn't have to be dominant. we do everything for our dog's. we
bathe them, dry them off, bring their food to them, open and close
doors for them, open the car door for them, they ride in the back of the
car (chauffeured), etc, lol. 

let's say you are assertive in your approach with your dog. you can be
assertive but you're still doing everything for your dog. i don't know if
a dog knows assertive or a calm approach. the dog is catered to in either
approach.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

i think training and socializing is key with any breed.



Laurelin said:


> >>>>> Certain individual dogs require more boundaries and rules and require you to be more consistent with them. I'm not even sure it's always a breed thing but just a personality one. <<<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have two big dogs, Susie, a Bernese cross and Kris, my Doberman. They have been the complete opposite to train. Susie was the easiest dog of the two, was very motivated to learn anything whereas Kris, although Dobies are smart, needed much firmer training. I don't mean rougher, she just had to know you meant it when you gave her a command. She has not been "harder" to train, just different.

Susie was always good with my small dogs, never had to worry about her hurting them accidentally whereas Kris is still a work in progress as she still sometimes walks all over them trying to play and she is 15 months old now.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Josefina also was, for a cattle dog, very "soft" I guess you could say. She also almost always accepted the rules (even new ones once she was taught) at face value. Buddy does too. Izze ... not so much. You had to show her you meant it or she would be like "whatever, up yours" and just go do whatever she wanted, that's where my parents and her clashed when she would stay with them, back when I had a job that required me to travel. 

Now by "meaning it" I don't mean intimidating your dog or alpha rolling them, when my dogs are young or until I know I can trust them to obey in all feasible situations and if I have doubts, I leash them til they can prove to me they are trust worthy. Josefina is STILL leashed when she leaves a fenced area, at first I was peeved off about that and I fell into the "well my last ACD could be trusted at said age so she should be too." which is not always true.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

To Rebecca...the origin of this post. Going to give you a different perspective. You described your Pom as obedient and quiet, and yes that is unusual for a Pom or most of the toy breeds. Pom are derived from spitz breeds which are quite independent and difficult (unless you understand them). If you are being honest about the comportment of your Pom...you are a great candidate, if you want a larger breed. I've been either bit by or attacked by three breeds in my younger years....those breeds are dachsund, cocker spaniel, and sheltie. The sheltie was more accident...it was a grazing blow during high drive herding behavior...but the other two were the owners didn't think a small dog could "hurt" anybody, and there was no leadership involved.

The four breeds you are interested in: Doberman, German Shepherd, Mastiff, and Rhodesian Ridgeback. The first three are in the working group and were bred to largely to interact with the needs of the owner. The last, the Ridgeback, is a hound, and in the hound group. This is a breed not inclined to...and in fact not even CARE about what the owner wants, if it differs from its own wants.

Leash control isn't about a prong collar. In order for a prong collar to be effective, it has to be placed correctly. You can get the same, and MORE EFECTIVE result from a simple slip lead placed correctly. The problem with the prong, when used incorrectly is that it can actually incite aggressive behavior and pulling, rather than deter it. Only people who aren't confident with themselves to remain calm think that a prong is useful. I've taken in rescues who "purportedly" were aggressive with other dogs and with a cheap $5 slip lead placed correctly in one or two sessions cured that behavior...because "I" didn't freak out. I've placed a 4 year old ridgeback with a home with two toy dogs...with all the requisite conversations it might not work....but it turned into the toys remaining king...because of the work that I did with that ridgeback.

Some breeds are very complex and just because you are searching for something because you like the way they look, or whatever, you should totally research them, but in saying THAT...of course you may find people who casually breed and tell you only good things because they simply want to sell puppies. It is a double edged sword. I would suggest if you are looking for a larger breed, and were successful with your pom, who is of the spitz variety...maybe you should consider a samoyed or husky or malamute because at least that would be of a similar mind-set in a bigger dog. 

There is a reason you have encountered a lexicon of "training words" evoked with the four breeds you said you were interested in. I don't know what websites you looked at...but I would suggest they are mostly opinion...with an agenda. I remember right before the age of the internet, an actual BOOK written by Coren about the intelligence of dogs....and he blindly "purported" based on his "tests" that some dogs were somehow more intelligent than other dogs....hounds took a hit, because his tests were based on dogs caring what was going on. I believe nordic breeds also took a hit...but for different reasons. 

All of what I said above aside....the world of purebred dogs is NOT pure with regard to breeders. Been there for a long time and now hate what I see. Trust is harder to find than gold. You seem like a judicious person...My next dog will come from the shelter because at least I am saving something rather than putting money in the hands of people who could care less.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> Only people who aren't confident with themselves to remain calm think that a prong is useful.


*Snort*

Okay. You come walk my 120lb puppy with crazy prey drive down 3 flights of ice covered stairs on a slip lead and a calm attitude with roaming cats at the bottom. You can tell me how well that works for you, when (if) you regain consciousness in the hospital. Assuming you have any memory of the incident. I hope the dog's alive at the end, too, since slip leads tighten far further and more constantly than a prong (which you can not choke a dog with).

I use slip leads. I don't use them for corrections, but I use them. I agree that prongs must be fitted and used correctly. I think most people should get professional training in how to use them. The rest is just... laughable.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> You can get the same, and MORE EFECTIVE result from a simple slip lead placed correctly....... Only people who aren't confident with themselves to remain calm think that a prong is useful.


A slip lead will tighten down and choke a dog, higher potential for serious injury than a fitted prong collar.

But as for remaining calm, LOL. I could be as calm as someone given a nice fat dose of anesthetics and if I'm walking on ice or mud and my 80 lbs and 70 lbs dogs decide they want to catch that tempting deer while wearing harnesses or buckle collars, I'm going to face plant and go for a ride on the ground. A slip lead would be flat out dangerous in such a case.

To clarify though, the prong collar is to give me that 1-2 seconds reaction time between when they see a deer or rabbit and when I can give a verbal "Leave it". Chester has a strong "leave it' and while I'm still working on that with Eva, she's catching on. The prong prevents them from landing me on the ground before I can redirect their attention basically. 

I just took my RR on a a 3.5 mile walk/jog on a plain leather harness where he walked loose leash the entire time. But the ground was dry and I had traction if I needed it. 

If you're "curing" dog aggressive dogs with a slip lead, than they either were not aggressive to begin with or you managed to correct them hard enough to shut them down temporarily which can backfire massively. 

But this isn't really a discussion of prong collars. The mention of them was only in reference to sometimes making concessions in training and management in relation to a dog's physical strength. 

Individual personality matters far more than size for the vast majority of training situations. You have to find the dog's motivation, create a working relationship, set boundaries and build the training as you go.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

So, I am supposed to calmly choke my dog out on a slip lead while he physically overpowers me and drags me behind him to go for another dog's throat? Interesting.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<*Snort* Okay. You come walk my 120lb puppy with crazy prey drive down 3 flights of ice covered stairs on a slip lead and a calm attitude with roaming cats at the bottom. You can tell me how well that works for you,>>

Wow....so cool I anticipated this response! snort. First of all...I WOULDN'T walk down three flights of stairs with an out of control 120 puppy...because if he/she were out of control...I wouldn't continue down the stairs, and I wouldn't need a prong collar to maintain control. There could be 15 roaming cats at the bottom of the stairs and three floor up, if my PUPPY were to throw a fit, I would simply STAND there and let him/her have whatever fit he/she wanted...but he/she would eventually realize unless she remained calm....we won't be going anywhere. Learning that one thing will teach the dog rather than simply inhibit the dog with a prong. Snort.

As for Shell's response...if your dog behaves differently on dry ground versus wet or slippery ground...true training...um...true leadership hasn't been successful. So we are again looking for outside panaceas rather than being confident that a quiet word from you will suppress your dog from doing something you don't want it to do. I've seen dogs on prong collars in the hands of people who don't get it...horrible wounds...because many types of dogs don't think of the prong as a correction, but as an agitator. 

I, too, don't think this discussion about prong collars...but it is also not about individual personalities...it is about true understanding. It is about trust. It is about dispelling misconceptions that "we" have to "tame the beast" of dogs...with medieval contraptions to feel safe on icy stairs or paths. If I need a prong collar on icy ground versus firm dry ground....that only proves the dog respects the prong...not the human. It amazes me that people like CptJack and Shell write what they do, and STILL think that controlling a dog is about a prong collar, and not about the DOG. 

A different perspective....decades ago, I attended an obedience seminar given by a person who was arguably the most successful person in competition obedience at the time. Halfway through her seminar...she brings out her SIX MONTH OLD golden retriever puppy sporting...what...A PRONG COLLAR!!!! This puppy didn't "need" a prong collar. She obviously and apparently knew what she was expected to do...she wasn't aggressive...she was in an arena full of other dogs...that prong collar on that puppy was...a nicole said in other posts was a "threat" of pain. That puppy performed perfect sits and perfect recalls because she didn''t want to feel the tightening of that prong colllar. Based on those expensive seminars I attended I employed the prong. I didn't "know" dogs back then...I simply wanted an "outcome." Yep...initially I did get a better outcome... and because I didn't understand... I kept thinking more force meant more perfection...until one day my dog shut down and looked at me in a way that thank God made me feel like a piece of crap. That was the day I threw away the prong collar and went on a different journey.

This is when I learned you DON'T walk down icy stairs with an out of control dog...you take the time to simply wait and let your dog have a hissy fit. That whole journey could take many tries...but it is a matter of that dog actually learning rather than "thinking" you have control with some sort of "device." that is why if you think you have to use a prong on icy paths rather than dry paths...you truly don't know your dogs, and for sure your dogs don't know you. It SHOULDN'T MATTER what kind of collars used on icy paths or dry paths. Neither of you get it. Is is NOT the collar. It is about what your dog thinks about YOU.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> As for Shell's response...if your dog behaves differently on dry ground versus wet or slippery ground...true training...um...true leadership hasn't been successful. So we are again looking for outside panaceas rather than being confident that a quiet word from you will suppress your dog from doing something you don't want it to do. I've seen dogs on prong collars in the hands of people who don't get it...horrible wounds...because many types of dogs don't think of the prong as a correction, but as an agitator.


My dogs do not really behave any differently on icy ground vs flat ground. If anything though, they are more cautious themselves on icy ground. Chester responds well to a verbal command, Eva is a work in progress but she's on the way. The key is, I need TIME to get that word in. I am NOT willing to risk my safety or their safety in exchange for avoiding a 2 second pinch from a prong collar. I teach "Wait" to hold up and "whoa" to slow down and considering that a friend dropped Chester's leash just yesterday next to a lake full of geese and he responded to "wait", I'd say my training works just fine. A prong is NOT a substitute for training, it is a component of it. 

I don't put prongs on puppies, I don't use them to "correct" dog aggression (but then, I don't use a slip lead to correct it either.....), I don't use a prong on a fearful dog. If I had the chance to train a dog from 8 weeks forward I think that I'd have less need for one rather than starting out with a dog that is full grown and powerful. But that brief moment of prey drive? The dogs don't give a flying flip about me for that second or two and I am not going to smash my face into the ground to avoid giving them a minor correction (which I consider SAFER than a slip collar BTW).


For your response to CptJack, I'd say good luck standing still holding a dog that weighs as much as you do with 15 roaming cats at the bottom of the stairs.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Please explain how you are supposed to stand there calmly on DRY ground with a dog physically stronger than you who is self rewarding by flipping out when dogs go by unexpectedly on a normal walk.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> For your response to CptJack, I'd say good luck standing still holding a dog that weighs as much as you do with 15 roaming cats at the bottom of the stairs.



Pretty much this. I mean yeah, honestly, the dog weighs 120lbs. I weight about 140. The surface is icy. Now, he's been trained from 8 weeks old and has a pretty good grip on verbal commands and can loose leash walk - right up until something triggers his prey drive. I really can't control the cats, and the guy up the street feeds and attracts more like 30 cats than 15. Now, 15 aren't there at a given time, but you can bet ONE is going to show up at some point. It hasn't been a major issue LATELY because we've gotten said grip in most situations (like flat and/or dry ground). Those steps are the last holdout that I have any use for the prong on, but I'm not risking an unexpected lunge on them. They don't change directions. It's a straight shot three stories of steps from the street to my front yard. He lunges after a cat and I don't have some leverage, we're both either dead or seriously hurt. 

So. No. 

(And if you think prey-drive lunging is related to the capacity to loose leash walk under normal circumstances or exempts an owner from needing extra leverage and control you're just deluding yourself. Thud could walk nicely on loose leash at < 4 months old. With other dogs. 










He didn't lose the skill. He grew prey-drive. Also his impulse control has away to go. Calling him a puppy isn't wrong, but it's also a misleading. He's nearly 18 months old, and even if he weren't he's STILL STRONGER THAN ME. Stopping him from self-rewarding and me from dying (mostly the second) is my priority. I try a no pull harness periodically. It doesn't work very well for his lunging issues. Great if he just pulled but he doesn't. He lunges.)


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

It's cool...I anticipated the back-pedalling. This is truly a confusion between what people think of as training versus simply leadership and respect. 

Give that weak support to CPT Jack...I've been in those circumstances more than I can count....with two dogs weighing more than one puppy. If you can't stand still on stairs with a frantic pup...then you shouldn't own that frantic pup.

I took in a rescue that was deemed near getting the needle...horrible on leash....hated everything...."attempted" to bite two different owners. I took a $5 slip lead when I picked up this dog from rescue and went for a walk. We didn't get far very fast because everytime he pulled, I simply stopped. We were in state park...wildlife everywhere. I didn't talk to him, I didn't look at him, I didn't acknowledge his bad behavior. After a hour of mostly me stopping each time he pulled...which included getting back to my car....no schedule, it didn't seem to make much difference then. Oddly enough....the next time I took him out...he NEVER pulled. He remembered. He respected I wasn't a raving lunatic telling him "NO!!!!" He just seemed to "know." I had to do various things with him....up close and personal...early on he lunged and flashed his teeth at me...I ignored it and continued to do what I was doing....I WILLED myself (knowing his history) to not react. Not once did he ever again do that to me. This dog, was placed twice...after he came to me, and each time he came back to me because his new "owners" got afraid because he lunged and flashed his teeth...because this dog learned early on that gave him power. I ended up keeping him myself, because he also learned within a few days of being with me....that didn't work...not through corrections or a prong collar...but simply because I didn't react. This dog was labeled as "aggressive." He wasn't aggressive. He had a learned behavior. I daresay....a learned behavior much like being allowed to act like an idiot on stairs with cats below. Waiting and ignoring those hystrionics could be beyond the comprehension of some people.

Owning a dog is not about getting 50 different opinions about "tips" to get them to do this or that. In many cases you can get by with that because you may have a compliant type of dog....but truly KNOWING dogs, understanding THEIR world, is apparently very difficult for people to understand. Do I still have issues with my dogs? You betcha. It is never an easy road, but it is always an interesting one. But one thing I DO know for sure....my dogs have the very well-defined respect of a leash. And it is never attached to a prong.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> It's cool...I anticipated the back-pedalling. This is truly a confusion between what people think of as training versus simply leadership and respect.
> 
> Give that weak support to CPT Jack...I've been in those circumstances more than I can count....with two dogs weighing more than one puppy. If you can't stand still on stairs with a frantic pup...then you shouldn't own that frantic pup.
> 
> ...


Well, that's good you've never had to use a prong. But don't act as if your way is the best and we are all ignorant. Are you honestly going to say you know better than MANY other trainers, including working and military dog trainers? That EVERY dog will be fine if you simply make like a tree?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> It's cool...I anticipated the back-pedalling. This is truly a confusion between what people think of as training versus simply leadership and respect.
> 
> Give that weak support to CPT Jack...I've been in those circumstances more than I can count....with two dogs weighing more than one puppy. If you can't stand still on stairs with a frantic pup...then you shouldn't own that frantic pup.
> 
> ...


So CptJack should have left the ~4 week old puppy to die in the trash because the dog had the potential to grow up to be a very large dog that might overweigh her? I'm sure Thud would have chosen to die in the trash rather than have the limited pinch of a prong collar under some circumstances. (SARCASM)

It is nice that a $5 slip lead and stopping and standing still worked for you. A $5 slip can be snapped in half by some dogs and others will choke themselves into a collapse under the slip lead+ standing still method. 

Waiting out a dog's drive or histrionics as you put it isn't at all beyond the comprehension of most people. It is that under some conditions, it isn't really physically possible. I use both the "be a tree" and "penalty yards" training for loose leash walking and find penalty yards to be very effective. I'm not dissing those methods at all, I'm being realistic as to what some dogs are physically capable of. 

Your dogs aren't attached to a prong, yay for them. But instead, you're training with another aversive device- a slip collar which tightens down unlike a prong. I don't really see the high ground here.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Justdogs said:


> Give that weak support to CPT Jack...I've been in those circumstances more than I can count....with two dogs weighing more than one puppy. If you can't stand still on stairs with a frantic pup...then you shouldn't own that frantic pup. .



You need to read back and check your original premise. The dog doesn't outweigh two of the other dogs - the dog outweighs ME. As for not owning him - well, yeah, Shell nailed that . I'm SURE he'd rather have frozen to death in the dump or died of the intestinal infection he got there than having 200 yards of several miles walking be (rarely) on a prong. I mean what am I THINKING? I know, I can give him to someone who can physically be unmoved by him when he lunges. ....Except there is no one because this dog can physically move my 6'4" 200lb athlete husband because he's *not pulling*. He's going from at heel position to the end of his leash very, very abruptly and with great force. So, which subset of the population does that leave?

As an aside: If you think a slip collar CHOKING a dog is less aversive to a prong PINCHING them, you really need to talk to some _actual_ trainers. Slip leashes are not supposed to be used for corrections and allowing a dog to lunge, pull and continue to choke themselves really is cruel. It is also seriously, seriously dangerous and has a high potential for real damage.

Either way, I had a good giggle. So thanks for that, I suppose.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Let me explain a little more.... 

I mentioned earlier self rewarding. A dog who self rewards my going nuts at the end of the leash and whatever they are barking at goes away, be it cat, dog, person, bike, whatever. If you stand there and do nothing while the dog does that, it can be positive reinforcement to that dog. In that case you are not much better than a tree or stake in the ground and the dog is tied out i.e. the leash. Maybe this worked for you with all if your dogs but doing nothing is NOT the answer in every case, and you can make things worse in others!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I have used a prong to keep from being pulled over by a large dog. I don't like them. I don't approve of training with one. But for keeping a large dog from getting loose or pulling you over. . .eh. I tried it on my arm and it's not terrible. 

I am terrified of slip collars though. Nooses are inherently dangerous. Plus I had a bad experience with a faulty collar that nearly got me a dead dog. So no. Prongs seem pretty harmless compared to them.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

OP: Are you looking at dogbreedinfo.com? If so, ignore them. The site owner is a huge Cesar Milan fan and it colours all of his writing.

For example, he has Dobies listed as being very hard-headed and in need of tough training. My grandfather had Dobies, they're actually very sensitive, velcro dogs who benefit enormously from positive training (which Grandpa was using back in the 1940s. It's nothing new.)


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

To go along with Amaryllis's advice, if you're looking for general breed descriptions breed clubs and breed-specific rescues seem to be good resources. They, especially rescues, will tell you the good and bad. Of course, once you've done some initial research, talking to owners is invaluable. Good luck!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Robbi said:


> Hello all! My name is Rebecca and I am a first time dog owner. I was doing research for a perspective addition to my family in the very very distant future.
> 
> I currently have a young pomeranian whose just the light of my life. He's sweet, quiet (which is rare for poms), obedient, and my best friend. However, in the future I'd like for him to have a much bigger "little" brother or sister.
> 
> ...


I'm likely to have an unpopular opinion here, but I do think there is a difference in how some breeds need to be handled versus others. Of course, you could end up with a very mellow Mastiff or a very stubborn Pomeranian, but I'm talking generalizations here, not specific individuals that break the curve.

For me, though, it doesn't mean you can't use positive reinforcement methods. To me, it means that I have to be "on top" of my dog...all the time. I have to be absolutely consistent and not let him get away with anything. I have to enforce whatever rules I set and be patient enough to do it. For example, if I've made a rule where he has to sit and wait until I give him a command to come inside the door (he's big, so it's a practical thing so we're both not trying to go through the door at once), then I have to do that every single time. If he makes a mistake and moves before the command, I have to have him go back outside and sit and wait until the command and I have to do that until he gets it right and I can praise/treat him then. It doesn't matter if it's -20 degrees outside or if I'm late for work.

With other breeds I've had, I could let things like that slide more, but with Sam, if I give him and inch, he'll take it and inch by inch, he'll get that mile.

I have to believe I'm the leader and I have to show him that I'm the leader. To me, that doesn't mean being brutal, but it does mean being confident and consistent. You could definitely argue that all dogs benefit from this, but I think some breeds NEED it more than others.

Your mileage may vary.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> It's cool...I anticipated the back-pedalling. This is truly a confusion between what people think of as training versus simply leadership and respect.
> 
> Give that weak support to CPT Jack...I've been in those circumstances more than I can count....with two dogs weighing more than one puppy. If you can't stand still on stairs with a frantic pup...then you shouldn't own that frantic pup.
> 
> ...


My dog is starting to outweigh me. I use a prong collar because he's really still an overgrown pup and I live in Alaska where ice is EVERYWHERE. I'm lucky if I don't fall even when I'm not walking him. In my club, prong collars are considered less aversive than slip collars because they are more limited in how they tighten and less likely to do damage to a dog's trachea.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<*Snort* Okay. You come walk my 120lb puppy with crazy prey drive down 3 flights of ice covered stairs on a slip lead and a calm attitude with roaming cats at the bottom. You can tell me how well that works for you,>>
> 
> Wow....so cool I anticipated this response! snort. First of all...I WOULDN'T walk down three flights of stairs with an out of control 120 puppy...because if he/she were out of control...I wouldn't continue down the stairs, and I wouldn't need a prong collar to maintain control. There could be 15 roaming cats at the bottom of the stairs and three floor up, if my PUPPY were to throw a fit, I would simply STAND there and let him/her have whatever fit he/she wanted...but he/she would eventually realize unless she remained calm....we won't be going anywhere. Learning that one thing will teach the dog rather than simply inhibit the dog with a prong. Snort.
> 
> ...


Haha good thing you don't have a "tougher" dog. I also had a 120lb dog and used a prong I had no desire to do any street skiing :/

It also goes to say that even a 30-60 lb dog can pull someone over or be hard to hold. I have a 60lb rescue who didn't know how to walk on a leash and when he had his tantrums he was hard to hold. Granted I didn't use a prong or a choker on him I used a half check (so he couldn't slip it), he was basically like a 60lb 7yr old "puppy"


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Like the others here, I don't think that you need to be harsh or unreasonable with any dog, no matter what the breed. There are dogs who take a lot more training, day to day, to not be out of control. Some breeds can become overly guardy, some are just wild and rambunctious, and many just need a lot of mental stimulation to be happy and not obnoxious in some way. For example, with an "easy" dog you might be able to give a quiet "ah-ah" when the dog tries to get on the counter, and that's that - after a couple times the dog stops trying to counter surf. With a tougher dog, you might be training not to jump on the counter, reinforcing that multiple times a day, always blocking off the kitchen when you can't supervise, constantly being on top of them to reinforce the rule, etc etc. Some dogs are just stubborn and persistent when they want to do something, and you have to be very patient and more stubborn than they are and very consistent with your rules.

I don't think it's necessarily a big dog small dog thing, though you can slack off on basic manners much more with little dogs just because they're little - a small dog can't pull you down the street the same way a 100lb dog can, or knock a person over by jumping on them. So in that sense bigger dogs may take more work just because their doggy manners need to be really solid, whether they are harder or easier than a little dog (and I think that's often personality more than anything as there are easy and hard dogs within the same breed, though some breeds on the whole are harder than others). Add in a big dog who also needs a ton of rules and consistency, and it can be tiring.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Add in a big dog who also needs a ton of rules and consistency, and it can be tiring.


^This...I think this is the crux here and why these breeds have the reputation that they do. They're intelligent breeds that need a lot of interaction with their people and were bred to spend all day working close with their people, so for some owners that aren't used to that, aren't expecting that, or don't have a lifestyle that supports that, they can just be a bit too much to handle.

It doesn't mean that they necessarily need someone to be harsh with them, they just need a lot of consistent interaction and hands-on attention from someone who is confident and willing to put in all that effort. And, honestly, a lot of people who *think* they are willing to do that, really aren't when it comes down to it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> ^This...I think this is the crux here and why these breeds have the reputation that they do. They're intelligent breeds that need a lot of interaction with their people and were bred to spend all day working close with their people, so for some owners that aren't used to that, aren't expecting that, or don't have a lifestyle that supports that, they can just be a bit too much to handle.
> 
> It doesn't mean that they necessarily need someone to be harsh with them, they just need a lot of consistent interaction and hands-on attention from someone who is confident and willing to put in all that effort. And, honestly, a lot of people who *think* they are willing to do that, really aren't when it comes down to it.


And I do think having a dog like that who weighs 80-100lbs is fundamentally different than a dog with a similar temperament who is a more manageable size (40lbs and under, maybe). My dog can be a complete idiot, flailing around at the end of the leash, and I can physically restrain him in a way that I couldn't with a 100lb dog. So the mental aspect (for the human) is exhausting either way, but the physical part of it is different depending on the size of the dog.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> And I do think having a dog like that who weighs 80-100lbs is fundamentally different than a dog with a similar temperament who is a more manageable size (40lbs and under, maybe). My dog can be a complete idiot, flailing around at the end of the leash, and I can physically restrain him in a way that I couldn't with a 100lb dog. So the mental aspect (for the human) is exhausting either way, but the physical part of it is different depending on the size of the dog.


That is certainly true. If my dog flakes out, people who don't know us will be frightened. Someone could even get hurt simply from him running into them or knocking them down. Handling him, in general, is a workout, whether it's playing tug or holding him back in protection, his sheer size means that handling him takes a lot of physical exertion. I kind of knew that going into owning him, but it's one thing to know "oh this breed gets to be x amount of pounds" and quite another to finally realize what that amount of weight feels like pulling against a leash or shoulder checking your hip.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Justdogs said:


> It's cool...I anticipated the back-pedalling. This is truly a confusion between what people think of as training versus simply leadership and respect.
> 
> Give that weak support to CPT Jack...I've been in those circumstances more than I can count....with two dogs weighing more than one puppy. If you can't stand still on stairs with a frantic pup...then you shouldn't own that frantic pup.
> 
> ...


You choked him out on a slip lead for an hour. That's what he "KNEW".


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> And I do think having a dog like that who weighs 80-100lbs is fundamentally different than a dog with a similar temperament who is a more manageable size (40lbs and under, maybe). My dog can be a complete idiot, flailing around at the end of the leash, and I can physically restrain him in a way that I couldn't with a 100lb dog. So the mental aspect (for the human) is exhausting either way, but the physical part of it is different depending on the size of the dog.


Agreed. It isn't better or worse per se, just DIFFERENT. Not just for training I mean, but day to day life. 

I have a 4 door sedan, each dog gets a seat in the back seat and while I could have 2 other people ride with me, one is going to be squished between two big dogs in the back. 

A very small dog can be easily bathed in the kitchen sink, a medium dog in the tub, but even though mine aren't giant, even the tub is a little small and awkward for baths (like, they can fit but turning around is hard and they're tall enough that water sprays all over the bathroom) so it is outside with the hose or the $10 self-service bays at the pet store.

They eat more, their flea/tick/HW meds cost more. 

If they act out on a walk, people are more intimidated.

If they have a scrap with another dog, the bigger one is going to get blamed (we had a ~20 lbs fluffy dog come snarling and snapping at us while hiking a month or so ago and while neither of mine reacted until the dog was up in their face, when they did react if they'd bitten the dog it would be viewed as the big dog's fault even though the little one was the illegally off-leash aggressor)

Some big breeds are easy going pushovers, some big breeds are tough and demanding types. It isn't size that makes a personality, it is breed and the individual.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I bathe the JRT in the sink lol


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Bathing Sam is a full body contact sport.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

The JRT is the only one I bathe on a regular basis due to his skin issues and allergies. The others only get a bath when they need it, if they don't then they get one every 6 months. They just don't smell and the dirt they get on them is nothing a little brushing doesn't take away. I have sandy soil here, no clay or black dirt.


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## Darrin Greene (Mar 26, 2014)

Justdogs said:


> Leash control isn't about a prong collar. In order for a prong collar to be effective, it has to be placed correctly. You can get the same, and MORE EFECTIVE result from a simple slip lead placed correctly. The problem with the prong, when used incorrectly is that it can actually incite aggressive behavior and pulling, rather than deter it. Only people who aren't confident with themselves to remain calm think that a prong is useful.


So am I to take this to mean that because, when used incorrectly, by an uneducated person, a prong COULD cause all of the above (and I agree it can), that no person ever in the history of the world should ever put one on a dog?

Further, are you really asserting that every person who puts a prong on a dog is un-confident and can't remain calm while they train/handle their dog? 

Finally, you underestimate the risk of injury that exists with a slip lead of any sort, especially the traditional chain version.

As to the OP, the words you're seeing, depending on who wrote them could mean everything from being calm and consistent to being downright abusive. You have to take the source into account when you read ANY kind of training language. 

There's very little objectivity in dog training anymore. People seem to have polarized to the far ends of the spectrum in terms of training methods. It really depends who you talk to what any given term will mean.

I've seen an awful lot of "positive" trainers using methods I would consider less than positive, and I've seen an awful lot of "balanced" trainers that rely so heavily on positive re-enforcement that they aren't really balanced at all.

There's a time, a place and a dog/owner relationship for every single humane tool and training style on the planet. It's just a matter of what tools and methods one believes meet the definition of "humane". That tends to be an emotional decision for most people, whether or not they will admit it.

It's been my experience in coaching several hundred dog/owner teams that placing arbitrary limits on the methods and or tools you're willing to use in training generally produces a less than optimal result. We all have limits. The narrower those limits are, the less effective most people are.

I wouldn't worry about the terms as they relate to breeds either. When consulted for these decisions, I generally suggest people look at the dog's long term breeding history (which was mentioned). What was the dog bred for and how do you/your situation relate to that. I'm not a fan of herding breeds in families with a lot of small children, for instance. I'm also not a fan of working breeds for sedentary folks. the list of potential mismatches goes on and on. That must be considered first. 

If you need a dog that's temperament/behavior is outside the normal purpose for their breed to suit your skills/situation, then you should look at a different breed.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes while I do use prongs, I know the I am doing and I don't think they should be available as readily as they are. 

It's not the tool it's the hands the tool is in. But it's much like horse bits, like my horse trainer friend used to say, if they won't do it in a snaffle they won't do it in a curb or correction bit. Same with dogs and collars, a prong is not designed to TEACH heel or not pulling, it's to AID an owner with a dog who already "has the idea" of heeling and not pulling. 

That's just my opinion ... I wouldn't use a choker or a prong on a dog who didn't know anything


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I wouldn't use a choker or a prong on a dog who didn't know anything


No? I actually think a prong on a dog who doesn't know anything is a proper use. They can't pull with one on (or they could but most won't), so they can be safely taken for walks before they're trained to loose-leash walk. I don't like prongs for actual training or punishment of a dog who already knows how to loose-leash walk, because I think that encourages excessive harshness and is basically using the threat of pain. But for "power steering" of an untrained dog (or young fool who forgets he's trained), I don't have a problem with it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

the other consideration is also doing training when you don't need to control the animal... training in your house / yard off lead where the animal is safe from making mistakes that would put the owner or the dog harms way.. There should be a balance of training. The more experienced the dog learns to control themselves working with you on commands the easier it will be in real life when distractions and stimulus are present and the lead becomes a safety feature not a method of needing to control. Many training centers you can rent for an hour time slot to work in the safety of a good size open building.. Long line training in a base ball field to solely work on a dog learning to do it himself.. come into you heel , then release to go play and be mindless... then come back... All my dogs learn by doing off leash around the house and property accomplishing tiny bits at a time.. So a balance in types of training help.

to be on topic,, about balancing training approaches is to eventually get off the training collar giving the dog the opportunity to fully learn mistakes and all without the collar in a safe environment


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> the other consideration is also doing training when you don't need to control the animal... training in your house / yard off lead where the animal is safe from making mistakes that would put the owner or the dog harms way.. There should be a balance of training. The more experienced the dog learns to control themselves working with you on commands the easier it will be in real life when distractions and stimulus are present and the lead becomes a safety feature not a method of needing to control. Many training centers you can rent for an hour time slot to work in the safety of a good size open building.. Long line training in a base ball field to solely work on a dog learning to do it himself.. come into you heel , then release to go play and be mindless... then come back... All my dogs learn by doing off leash around the house and property accomplishing tiny bits at a time.. So a balance in types of training help.


Absolutely agreed.

But for most people the dog's still gotta leave the property safety to do that - if you've got the property to do it in to start with. The options are 'in the house' and 'public, often on a city street or park'. Which... still involves crazy amounts of activity, to get to somewhere more private.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Absolutely agreed.
> 
> But for most people the dog's still gotta leave the property safety to do that - if you've got the property to do it in to start with. The options are 'in the house' and 'public, often on a city street or park'. Which... still involves crazy amounts of activity, to get to somewhere more private.


 I agree, do fully understand that people are limited to their environment and the need for safety needing to get out into the environment before training is achieved, so I don't have any issues with pinch collars . finding a way to work off lead is a perfect compliment in training with a dog who hasn't learned to control themselves, it does teaches them skills of stopping themselves


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> the other consideration is also doing training when you don't need to control the animal... training in your house / yard off lead where the animal is safe from making mistakes that would put the owner or the dog harms way.. There should be a balance of training. The more experienced the dog learns to control themselves working with you on commands the easier it will be in real life when distractions and stimulus are present and the lead becomes a safety feature not a method of needing to control. Many training centers you can rent for an hour time slot to work in the safety of a good size open building.. Long line training in a base ball field to solely work on a dog learning to do it himself.. come into you heel , then release to go play and be mindless... then come back... All my dogs learn by doing off leash around the house and property accomplishing tiny bits at a time.. So a balance in types of training help.
> 
> to be on topic,, about balancing training approaches is to eventually get off the training collar giving the dog the opportunity to fully learn mistakes and all without the collar in a safe environment


Then I might not be a balanced trainer. I don't see Sam ever getting rid of his prong collar until he's geriatric. I like the insurance I get from knowing that just in case something unexpected does happen, I can control him when I need to, for his safety as much as anything else. With his size and strength, I get that from the prong even if it is just there and I'm not doing a leash correction. Even in my own yard, I don't know when a bull moose is going to decide that he wants to wander through or the neighbors rottie is going to decide to try to come through the fence. Even if I'm confident in my control of my dog, there are too many other variables outside my control.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Then I might not be a balanced trainer. I don't see Sam ever getting rid of his prong collar until he's geriatric. I like the insurance I get from knowing that just in case something unexpected does happen, I can control him when I need to, for his safety as much as anything else. With his size and strength, I get that from the prong even if it is just there and I'm not doing a leash correction. Even in my own yard, I don't know when a bull moose is going to decide that he wants to wander through or the neighbors rottie is going to decide to try to come through the fence. Even if I'm confident in my control of my dog, there are too many other variables outside my control.



but your not saying your stopping training because you have the pinch collar, that is what I am trying to add... that you using the pinch for safety,, but continue to find opportunities to train for skills for them learning to control themselves. ... it's not meant as a negative..


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> Then I might not be a balanced trainer. I don't see Sam ever getting rid of his prong collar until he's geriatric. I like the insurance I get from knowing that just in case something unexpected does happen, I can control him when I need to, for his safety as much as anything else. With his size and strength, I get that from the prong even if it is just there and I'm not doing a leash correction. Even in my own yard, I don't know when a bull moose is going to decide that he wants to wander through or the neighbors rottie is going to decide to try to come through the fence. Even if I'm confident in my control of my dog, there are too many other variables outside my control.


I think you're confusing training with managing....you are using the prong as a management tool, and as a safety net for your own peace of mind/safety in that scenario. I have NO problems with that, I do the same. But, when you are training are you using the prong to issue a correction to tell the dog it has done wrong? Are you giving treats to tell the dog that it has done right? If you are doing both, to me, that is being balanced in your training. That is so long as your dog responds properly to the treats and the prong....if the dog shuts down with the prong then your balance is off and perhaps a small tug or firm "No" is more appropriate...IMO, the balance is more in the response of the dog to your communication of "right vs wrong", not just in the levels of aversives/rewards. That is just my opinion though.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> I think you're confusing training with managing....you are using the prong as a management tool, and as a safety net for your own peace of mind/safety in that scenario. I have NO problems with that, I do the same. But, when you are training are you using the prong to issue a correction to tell the dog it has done wrong? Are you giving treats to tell the dog that it has done right? If you are doing both, to me, that is being balanced in your training. That is so long as your dog responds properly to the treats and the prong....if the dog shuts down with the prong then your balance is off and perhaps a small tug or firm "No" is more appropriate...IMO, the balance is more in the response of the dog to your communication of "right vs wrong", not just in the levels of aversives/rewards. That is just my opinion though.


Yes, I do use corrections with the prong. I also use a lot of positive reinforcement and rely almost exclusively on that for training new behaviors.

I was essentially joking that if the crux of whether someone is a balanced trainer or not is whether they eventually take off the prong or not, then I wouldn't be considered a balanced trainer at all.

I like having a balanced approach because sometimes, there are behaviors where, to me, it absolutely has to be crystal clear that this is not allowed, in a very quick and clear manner and the behavior must stop immediately. There are some behaviors I feel are a safety issue where I can't ignore them or train another behavior...they just have to stop NOW and not happen again...period. That is where I will definitely use an aversive.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> I like having a balanced approach because sometimes, there are behaviors where, to me, it absolutely has to be crystal clear that this is not allowed, in a very quick and clear manner and the behavior must stop immediately. There are some behaviors I feel are a safety issue where I can't ignore them or train another behavior...they just have to stop NOW and not happen again...period. That is where I will definitely use an aversive.


I have a feeling you and I are very much on the same page when it comes to training, and aversive use. Train completely positive first, then for stuff that really matters show that there can be negative consequences if cues aren't followed (I didn't die because I touched the ring on the stove that mom said was hot...I learned and mom said "I told ya" when she came back in). It took me a LONG time to get to that mindset (and put aside the demonizing of anything potentially aversive....the only downside I found to starting with Kikopup videos, I felt SO EVIL), but I'm glad I did. 

I don't think that not taking the prong off would make you a not balanced trainer. To me, it is an insurance (I treat the e collar that way for having Caeda off leash), it is hardly ever used, its like it isn't there since we're both used to it, but don't rely on it, but if I ever need it, it is. To me, if you've got a dog, especially one that has some drive and is powerful, insurance isn't a bad thing (unless you're cashing in your insurance daily). I think it is pretty realistic to accept that you can't train and be prepared (without any insurance) to make it through every unexpected thing that could possibly happen. A lot of people DO make it through without awful things happening to their dog, some people don't....I'll keep my insurance and hope I don't have to use it  Of course to many, even suggesting being a balanced trainer is considered to be a mean trainer, they can think so, but I'll happily keep walking with the prong knowing there is less chance I'll get dragged onto the road because a deer came out of nowhere!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I didn't say "Balanced Trainer"  I actually said Balanced Training ...... that yes you live in an environment you need the assistance of the pinch collar ... I just don't think you should stop finding the opportunity to train the dog to learn not to need the pinch collar.. even if you never intend to give up having the pinch collar on them at all times..... still work on training opportunities that are free hand, self learning for the dog in a safe place..


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Josefina is hard to bathe in the sense that she has SO MUCH HAIR.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<You choked him out on a slip lead for an hour. That's what he "KNEW". >>

Where did I ever say I "choked him for an hour" Seriously...I think too many of you love revisionist history. I had him on a simple slip lead for an hour, properly placed, thus, he DIDN'T choke himself. What he KNEW was an extremely uncomfortable sensation of a properly placed simple leash IF/WHEN he pulled, combined with the fact that when he pulled, I simply stopped going forward. I never said a word to him. He wasn't "choked" for an hour....he, after knowing me for minutes, realized finally somebody else in his life was taking charge. It was actually a good walk. And we had almost flawless walks after that. 

I truly don't care if we are talking about a toy dog or a giant breed. I don't even care if all of you say your large dogs are "simply wonderful" normally, but that you use a prong in order to control them if "oops" a squirrel or stray dog comes by. And by gosh...that is simply a safety issue. Well...don't care that you agree with me or not...but for me that is still a bogus excuse. If you think you need a prong for "unexpected" things, rather than what should be the proper relationship you built with your dogs...by all means, I guess you should use a prong. I own powerful dogs. I live in the country. I am confronted by all these things and while my dogs may initially startle at something...a quick word by me or a reminder tug on the leash lets them know that yes, I see what they want, but they aren't allowed pull me on my face to get to it...something it seems most of you are afraid of happening. 

The proper relationship with a dog isn't about the hardware we use. And for all those people who are scared off their arses and poke fun at me for saying, simply stop moving....I guess you aren't at a respectful relationship with your dog to make that possible. At BEST, the prong is a training devise...not a "control for life" devise, because if all of you that seem to love it so much, and seem to think you need it so much....you obviously don't understand dogs. I'm not on this forum much due so simply life matters...not because people disagree with me. Could care less. I enjoy helping people...which hopefully means I am helping dogs. I sometimes get the impression on this forum that especially the senior people are all about "winning" against the dog and not truly understanding the dog. I love learning. I get the distinct impression that too many others are stuck in current beliefs and think they have nothing more to learn. How sad.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess I don't see the difference between a "properly placed" slip collar and a prong collar. That's all.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I guess I don't see the difference between a "properly placed" slip collar and a prong collar. That's all.


This.

(too short)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> The proper relationship with a dog isn't about the hardware we use. And for all those people who are scared off their arses and poke fun at me for saying, simply stop moving....I guess you aren't at a respectful relationship with your dog to make that possible. At BEST, the prong is a training devise...not a "control for life" devise, because if all of you that seem to love it so much, and seem to think you need it so much....you obviously don't understand dogs.


I agree that a prong is a training device. But so is a slip lead and when used for corrections, it too is an aversive. I happen to feel that a prong is a safer alternative than a slip lead in that case.

A prong collar is also an insurance device. If it isn't needed, it never engages. On that slim chance it is needed, it could save my dog's life. I do a lot of training to work towards using a plain harness or flat collar but when a dog can easily pull 400+ lbs and I weigh nothing near that, it can take time. I have found the no-pull harnesses to alter a dog's gait and I don't feel head collars are safe for highly prey driven dogs that lunge. 

But this "respectful relationship" thing gets me. What do you mean by it? How to you gain "respect"?

I have a very good relationship with my dogs, thank you very much, and I am an advocate of positive reinforcement because it does work so well and has very little chance of fallout. But if I'm standing on ice and my dog sees a deer, his INSTINCT to chase that deer is going to be very strong and he quite frankly isn't going to be thinking deeply about my relationship with him while he lunges for the deer. It is that half second before I issue a verbal command that matters with him. Eva has been with me 6 months, after 7 months owned by a dimwit and who knows how long as a stray and in the shelter. She looks like a pit bull, she won't get the benefit of the doubt if anything happens. So yeah, I'm going to work with her on a prong so she can SAFELY enjoy exercise while we also work hard in a fenced area on off-leash training for heel and such.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Shell said:


> I have a very good relationship with my dogs, thank you very much,


I agree with everything you just put down Shell, and I started my own rebuttal, but realized it isn't really a useful argument to make. A constructive discussion would be great, but the "I'm right you're all wrong because I said so" vibe I'm getting doesn't suggest such a discussion is in the making....nor is it likely that any of us will have the revelation that we've all been deceived into thinking that the extra safety measure of the prong collar is wrong, and that it is preferable to be dragged down the street by our dogs if they see a squirrel (which of course they shouldn't do if they actually respected us rather than have instinct...wait, isn't respect a human emotion...I must have that wrong). 

Anyway, back to the thread....


PatriciafromCO said:


> I just don't think you should stop finding the opportunity to train the dog to learn not to need the pinch collar.. even if you never intend to give up having the pinch collar on them at all times..... still work on training opportunities that are free hand, self learning for the dog in a safe place..


This, I completely agree with. Yes, training does have to keep happening as long as it is needed (and maintenance has to happen!!). I know that I (and I'm sure many others) slip up occasionally, getting into the rut of walk, play, feed, sleep, etc and get used to our dog being around that we forget that they haven't experienced everything, and some things can make them harder to handle. We had Schutzhund one time last winter in a barn, and I was baffled at first as to why she was so much harder to handle than usual and she went a little loopy when she saw the horse in the stall.....then it clued in, she had never smelled farm animals before (good thing I had the prong!), the opportunity was just never there before. I took her outside to a spot that wasn't making her as excited and she couldn't see the horse. Let her sniff and get her fill of the general scents of the area then I went back to basics with her for a few minutes, (and it really wasn't long!), just a little bit of heeling, sit, down etc, then took her back where she could see the horse and back into the barn and although she still showed that she was more excited, she wasn't near as hard to handle. Just a matter of getting her comfortable with the area, and the sights so she could focus again. That situation was one where I was SO glad that I'd had that prong on her (of course respect alone should have prevented her from getting stomped I guess), but also had an excellent training/socialization opportunity. 

I find the key with a lot of training (for me and Caeda anyway), especially with the prong, is realizing when it is useful management, and when it is being used as a laziness tool. If I had just dragged her past that horse and kept on popping her until she stopped acting up that would have been awful (but it could have been easily done), I just managed to use it to save her butt (and mine if the horse had been hurt by overzealous uncontrolled curiosity!) and had the ability to turn it into a decent training moment before the actual Schutzhund training session started. 
I try to catch those training opportunities arise, and kick myself hard when I don't, I find they are even better than the planned out training.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<You choked him out on a slip lead for an hour. That's what he "KNEW". >>
> 
> Where did I ever say I "choked him for an hour" Seriously...I think too many of you love revisionist history. I had him on a simple slip lead for an hour, properly placed, thus, he DIDN'T choke himself. What he KNEW was an extremely uncomfortable sensation of a properly placed simple leash IF/WHEN he pulled, combined with the fact that when he pulled, I simply stopped going forward. I never said a word to him. He wasn't "choked" for an hour....he, after knowing me for minutes, realized finally somebody else in his life was taking charge. It was actually a good walk. And we had almost flawless walks after that.
> 
> ...


Wow okay. I'm also getting the distinct impression you are too stuck in YOUR current beliefs, and have nothing more to learn, since you're saying all anyone needs to have a well mannered dog and a respectful relationship with the dog is to slap a slip lead on it and stand still until the dog figures out to quit choking itself. How is that more humane than a single pop with a prong? A pinch vs. being choked? I know which one I'd prefer!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> Wow okay. I'm also getting the distinct impression you are too stuck in YOUR current beliefs, and have nothing more to learn, since you're saying all anyone needs to have a well mannered dog and a respectful relationship with the dog is to slap a slip lead on it and stand still until the dog figures out to quit choking itself. How is that more humane than a single pop with a prong? A pinch vs. being choked? I know which one I'd prefer!


Never mind the fact that I, at least, have never popped the prong to start with. It only engages if he lunges. 

And keeps the pressure off, you know, that thing he uses to breathe. I like Thud breathing.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> No? I actually think a prong on a dog who doesn't know anything is a proper use. They can't pull with one on (or they could but most won't), so they can be safely taken for walks before they're trained to loose-leash walk. I don't like prongs for actual training or punishment of a dog who already knows how to loose-leash walk, because I think that encourages excessive harshness and is basically using the threat of pain. But for "power steering" of an untrained dog (or young fool who forgets he's trained), I don't have a problem with it.


Yes that's what I meant, like a dog who knows the basics of leash walking, I would never use one on a dog like Buddy who, thanks to a crappy upbringing, already has a certain apprehension of collars and leashes as a whole. Now him I want him to pull me places because I am extatic that he WANTS to go ANYWHERE. 

Once he got confident, I just curbed his pulling by using the "be a tree" method. And we reached an understanding, you can pull me, just don't dislocate my arm doing it lol. I do teach a formal heel but I don't require the dogs to walk around in heel all the time, that's a lot of work for the both of us ... Not to mention it's not very fun either.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I do teach a formal heel but I don't require the dogs to walk around in heel all the time, that's a lot of work for the both of us ... Not to mention it's not very fun either.


 The dog doesn't have to walk around in heel position all the time, only when it's appropriate and necessary. It's not a lot of work. First you establish a strong reinforcement history. Then you teach a solid cue to use at those times when it's needed, and you can easily get the dog onto a variable reinforcement schedule. As for fun, it's probably more fun for you and the dog this way, as compared to be a tree. 'Nobody' likes that.

As for the comments re: slip collar vs prong, I'd find it easier to buy into their arguments if the poster were advocating a flat collar. As it stands though, I really don't see enough difference between the two mentioned, fundamentally speaking, to support the idea of a better relationship etc when using either one. Six and half a dozen, imo.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I do teach a formal heel but I don't require the dogs to walk around in heel all the time, that's a lot of work for the both of us ... Not to mention it's not very fun either.


 I actually started having a problem when I started using the formal heel on casual walks to try to help Caeda's position (unless it was only for a short period.....like just long enough to get past someone with a dog or something). Her casual heel started getting sloppy.....for us, in a formal heel she has to be looking at me, so when I'd used it on casual walks I started noticing when I was doing actual obedience work, she wasn't looking at me, her position was imprecise. I stopped using it casually (except for those short stints I mentioned....darn that is handy), and kept the two things completely separate.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

I just realized I'm getting sucked into a whirlpool of people actually not interested in learning or listening, but rather continuing to force people into defending themselves. So here's the deal...whether talking about the prong collar or a slip collar...they are training devices....emphasis on TRAINING. For sure..in early training, if I have a large dog...a prong collar may give you "security" or whatever that you won't be pulled on your face over the ice. But if, after months of using this training device...you STILL feel the need for security by using a prong collar...you HAVEN'T trained your dog...it is simply still a security device....um...much like a pacifier for a baby. A TRAINED dog, despite what all of you people say "could" crop up during a walk...WON'T pull you on your face...IF you actually TRAINED your dog properly. If you haven't trained your dog properly...then yeah...I guess you simply need prongs in your dog's neck to protect you from falling on your face. 

Thank goodness the people who use "training" devices when teaching guide dogs and assistance dogs, eventually do away with those training devices and TRUST that they did a good job of training those dogs to be used by people who CAN'T use such devices. I'll BET you the large dogs that function as guide dogs and assistant dogs don't need a PRONG collar when going over icy ground.....interesting that so many SIGHTED people think they need it.....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I read that post, but all I got out of it was, "People disagree with me, so I'm going to insult them!"

A dog can be trained, but still lunge if its prey drive is triggered. A dog can be trained, but still be dangerous on an icy surface. No one here is advocating sticking a prong on a dog and yanking it around. People here are thoughtful about the tools they use.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> I'll BET you the large dogs that function as guide dogs and assistant dogs don't need a PRONG collar when going over icy ground.....interesting that so many SIGHTED people think they need it.....


Those dogs are specifically selected for a certain kind of temperament and put through rigorous training for 2+ years starting from infancy before they are guiding blind people. Many of those dogs wash out during that training process. The dogs spend 24/7 with their handlers which leads to a level of training that can be harder or take a little longer to reach when someone works a full time job and the pet dog obviously isn't there with them. 

(I don't see a whole lot of blind people walking around in icy conditions either...)

There is a reason that many guide dogs are Labs and/or Goldens. People friendly, dog friendly, low-moderate prey drive, large size for mobility assistance. 

Everyone is dealing with a different temperament of dog, with a different background. There is zero that says that training and security cannot go hand in hand. Dogs are living creatures with a mind of their own and selecting the training and yes, tools, to match the dog and the situation is a good thing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> Those dogs are specifically selected for a certain kind of temperament and put through rigorous training for 2+ years starting from infancy before they are guiding blind people.


Yeah. I haven't seen a whole lot of < 2 year old giant, livestock guardian mutts being used as guide dogs. Funny, that.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> I read that post, but all I got out of it was, "People disagree with me, so I'm going to insult them!"
> 
> A dog can be trained, but still lunge if its prey drive is triggered. A dog can be trained, but still be dangerous on an icy surface. No one here is advocating sticking a prong on a dog and yanking it around. People here are thoughtful about the tools they use.


I'm reading the same thing Crantastic. I'd really love to read something constructive......been waiting for pages through several threads. Doesn't look likely. Getting insulted is getting really old, I'm not sure why we are all (myself included) still bothering to respond to the insults though.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<I read that post, but all I got out of it was, "People disagree with me, so I'm going to insult them!">>

I'm so sorry that the above is all you got out of it. Can't help that. But what I am grateful for is that guide dogs and assistance dogs have successfully been actually TRAINED not to give into prey drive. Pretty sure the guide dog program wouldn't be as successful as it has for 100 years if blind people were pulled flat on their faces when their dogs give into a "triggered prey drive" as you say. Pretty sure the assistance dog program wouldn't be that successful either if dogs were pulling wheelchair people willy-nilly all over the place simply because the dog saw something that triggered a prey drive...hmmm...I'm thinking these dogs were actually TRAINED...and not simply intimidated by a training DEVICE. See the difference?

I had a very prey driven breed once that actually PERFORMED in a prey driven sport and excelled, but when we simply went road working with me on a bicycle...I got tired of trees and such getting in my way. This dog...despite her prowess in her PREY-DRIVEN sport that she excelled in, she also excelled in obedience competition, so I decided to road-work her OFF LEASH. This, in a SUBURBAN environment....stray cats, stray dogs, squirrels...even the occasional bunny rabbit in the evening hours....a SIMPLE word from me when I saw her alert on any of this prey prevented her from taking off....she stayed by my side while I rode the bike. That is a trained dog. 

So I'm sorry, Crantastic that you don't seem to understand the concept of an actual trained dog...and I certainly don't understand why you say I am insulting people...I actually simply agreed that people should absolutely use these devices if their dogs aren't trained. That is not an insult...Simply a logical statement of fact if they always rely on devices.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> So I'm sorry, Crantastic that you don't seem to understand the concept of an actual trained dog...and I certainly don't understand why you say I am insulting people...


In other words, "I'm sorry that you're too stupid to grasp what I'm saying, and I don't understand why you think I'm insulting people!"

The posters above have explained how dogs are individuals and how guide dogs are specially bred and selected for the work and lack of prey drive (and even then, most wash out), so I don't need to reiterate that.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Off-leash in a busy suburban environment? That isn't something to be proud of really, you're putting your dog at risk and other dogs and people at risk.

"Always rely on devices"? Where are you getting that from? Training is a work in progress, some dogs move faster than other dogs. Using a device for insurance has nothing to do with lack of training. I've had some dogs come right out of the shelter and walk nicely on a harness within a week and other dogs take months. Some progress and regress a little depending on how much exercise they've had that week. 

So how did you get your prey-driven dog to that wonderful level of perfection? Did you use corrections? 

And once again, guide dog training does not equal typical training circumstances or temperament in any way shape or form.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Well...it is amazing...for those of you on this list who actually want a trained dog...please train the dog....the prong collar IS truly something that if you do your job, you can put on a high shelf, never again to be needed by that dog. If you want to believe those that attack me...by all means...keep using it as a crutch...believe you'll be pulled on your face in the ice if you don't have a prong collar...believe you'll be pulled on your face when your dog sees a squirrel or a stray dog or a stray cat...hmmm...a child? Believe it...believe you need a prong collar...but PLEASE don't ever post that you have a trained dog when it still wears a prong.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Just a note: When you use a lot of ellipses, the word "hmm," and all-caps every few words, that definitely makes it look like you're talking down to people. If you honestly don't understand why people find your tone insulting, I can tell you that those things are contributing.

Also, both of my dogs wear flat collars; I have never used a prong on either of them, and they walk very nicely. I used a combination of penalty yards and being a tree until they realized that pulling got them nowhere. This was easy for me to do without management tools because they are both small and I didn't have to worry about them pulling me over. I understand the concept of a trained dog, because I have trained dogs. I simply disagree with your opinions. There's a difference.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not sure why guide dogs are the standard that pet dogs are being compared to? Guide dog organizations generally breed their own dogs and are _extremely_ selective about which dogs get bred. Meaning that those dogs have been selected for desirable traits including behaviors such as low prey drive, handler focus, and biddability. Those dogs undergo a lengthy formal training process that includes things most pet dog owners don't have the time to devote to and depending on the exact program the training very well may include the use of aversive equipment such as prong collars and punitive techniques like collar pops. And finally, not all dogs who start guide dog training are placed as guide dogs. Some wash out, some go into the breeding program, and a small minority actually go on to do the work.

In other words, you keep comparing JQP's "amateur" dogs to high-level "professional" dogs. My dogs walk pretty well on leash, but I don't have the ability, time, patience, or quite frankly the interest in training my dogs to the level of a guide dog, police dog, military dog, etc. Not everyone can train a dog to the level that you're expecting them to, and I'd rather see someone walking their dog on a prong or using another management tool where they anticipate potential problems (eg the icy sidewalk) instead of a dog not getting walked at all. When Squash was an adolescent while he was learning LLW, I walked him on a prong quite regularly. 

Management isn't a dirty sin.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> Well...it is amazing...for those of you on this list who actually want a trained dog...please train the dog....the prong collar IS truly something that if you do your job, you can put on a high shelf, never again to be needed by that dog. If you want to believe those that attack me...by all means...keep using it as a crutch...believe you'll be pulled on your face in the ice if you don't have a prong collar...believe you'll be pulled on your face when your dog sees a squirrel or a stray dog or a stray cat..hmmm...a child? Believe it...believe you need a prong collar...but PLEASE don't ever post that you have a trained dog when it still wears a prong.




My dog doesn't go to squirrels anymore, nor rabbits, nor cats. That doesn't mean that there aren't specific limited areas in which I see a reasonable need to control him more for everyone's safety and my choice of control is a prong. I am not saying that should be the go-to for everyone in every case.

Animals are animals, heck, even a 4 year old child cannot be trusted not to dart towards something that interests them. That is why people hold their child's hand in public and around traffic etc. A trained animal is one with minimal chance of doing something unwanted. But depending on the situation, that minimal chance may or may not be acceptable. I bet Chester is better trained than 90% of dogs I see in public but if I'm going to let my 100 lbs, 60+ year old mother walk him in the forest, I'm going to provide that back-up insurance of a prong. I don't give a flying flip if the chances of him pulling are 1 in 200 walks without the prong as long as the chances of him pulling are 1 in 2000 walks with it since it protect my mother. Circumstances matter. Training/educating for any animal and really even young humans is a work in progress. Everyone has a different tolerance for risk and reward and I will complain when someone else thinks that their training is sufficient to risk my dogs and myself. 

You use a slip collar. Please explain what the difference is to the dog between a slip collar and a prong collar. 

Again, please detail how you prevent every single potential instance of ON-leash prey drive, lunging or pulling with a large dog. I do mean every single instance since I've got about 98% of them covered so I'd love to know the last 2% of times with a large dog that has not been trained from puppyhood.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> You use a slip collar. Please explain what the difference is to the dog between a slip collar and a prong collar.


This is the ONLY answer I'm interested in seeing at this point. 

The rest of this nonsense really is just nonsense, and I can't be bothered to get defensive enough about it to argue about. If anyone thinks my dogs are untrained... All I can really do is sit back and snicker at them, while assuming they've paid NO attention to my posting history, or to my dogs really. 

That's discounting the fact that there are FIVE of them, and I've used the prong with exactly one - or any other management tool. I mean, really now.



> Again, please detail how you prevent every single potential instance of ON-leash prey drive, lunging or pulling with a large dog. I do mean every single instance since I've got about 98% of them covered so I'd love to know the last 2% of times with a large dog that has not been trained from puppyhood.


Wait. I was wrong. I'm curious about this in a dim sort of way as well. And by that I mean 'screw from puppy hood'. I trained from puppyhood. Thud is fantastic, but his impulse control is not and all the 'heel' and 'loose leash walking' skills don't really matter in the second that immediately follows a rabbit jumping up under his nose. That said, it's spring now so we're done with the prong - and, really, slips, easy-walk harnesses, being a tree, penalty yards and everything else. I have traction now that it's, you know, not icy.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> Well...it is amazing...for those of you on this list who actually want a trained dog...please train the dog....the prong collar IS truly something that if you do your job, you can put on a high shelf, never again to be needed by that dog. If you want to believe those that attack me...by all means...keep using it as a crutch...believe you'll be pulled on your face in the ice if you don't have a prong collar...believe you'll be pulled on your face when your dog sees a squirrel or a stray dog or a stray cat...hmmm...a child? Believe it...believe you need a prong collar...but PLEASE don't ever post that you have a trained dog when it still wears a prong.


If your dog, who is off leash in a populated area like you said, passes in front of my dog close enough to make him react, you will be glad for my dog's prong and muzzle. He has made SO much progress but for me to say "ok, he's doing better now, time to put away the prong", I feel like I would be being irresponsible. I don't blame anyone for wanting a little extra insurance on icy days, I've been pulled down by my dog and it was not fun. 

I do have a trained dog  he is trained to sit, lay down, come, shake, leave it, stand, and all kinds of other things. He's not done with his training, if he will ever be done I don't know. But don't ever post that your trained dog will NEVER make a mistake, and act like people who take precautions against this are stupid!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> I had a very prey driven breed once that actually PERFORMED in a prey driven sport and excelled, but when we simply went road working with me on a bicycle...I got tired of trees and such getting in my way. This dog...despite her prowess in her PREY-DRIVEN sport that she excelled in, she also excelled in obedience competition, so I decided to road-work her OFF LEASH. This, in a SUBURBAN environment....stray cats, stray dogs, squirrels...even the occasional bunny rabbit in the evening hours....a SIMPLE word from me when I saw her alert on any of this prey prevented her from taking off....she stayed by my side while I rode the bike. That is a trained dog.


Or a dog who is more motivated by the road work than chasing stuff. Maisy is like that, she's a dream in harness because once we're moving she (almost) never wants to stop running for anything. 

Or maybe some dumb luck. Someday your dog's self control might wane or you might encounter something your dog thinks is worth breaking for. They're not robots, they're dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Wait. I was wrong. I'm curious about this in a dim sort of way as well. And by that I mean 'screw from puppy hood'. I trained from puppyhood. Thud is fantastic, but his impulse control is not and all the 'heel' and 'loose leash walking' skills don't really matter in the second that immediately follows a rabbit jumping up under his nose. That said, it's spring now so we're done with the prong - and, really, slips, easy-walk harnesses, being a tree, penalty yards and everything else. I have traction now that it's, you know, not icy.


But if you had a good enough relationship with Thud, he wouldn't care about anything else.

And yeah, sorry for implying that training from puppyhood negated the other issues, it doesn't. I only mean that one can often start training differently if they start with a 5 lbs, 8 week old dog versus a 70 lbs, 2 year old dog. 

Here's the bottom line for me: my dogs, and yes, I include Eva in that, are very solid towards not running off or very much not harming any human being. Chester has a stronger recall against prey animals than Eva does but both would very very very likely come back. That said? There are times that I am not willing to risk that confidence in them. Some sort of SAFE physical control is worth it to save their lives.

I've ridden some of the best trained horses in the world. No joke, top of the heap horses. They are trained to move and stop at the slightest movement of my seat and legs. Voice commands also to a degree. Doesn't mean that I don't put a bridle on them. Risk vs reward; management wins.

I'm sorry that the original poster's question has gotten so off-track. 
Here is my take on it : dogs are dogs. Breeds make a difference in regards to natural inclinations but size in and of itself isn't the main consideration. Find trainers and training styles that you are comfortable with and that you feel produce the result you are looking for.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

A few things to answer...I'll start with this one first. 

<< You use a slip collar. Please explain what the difference is to the dog between a slip collar and a prong collar. Again, please detail how you prevent every single potential instance of ON-leash prey drive, lunging or pulling with a large dog. I do mean every single instance since I've got about 98% of them covered so I'd love to know the last 2% of times with a large dog that has not been trained from puppyhood. >>

I never said I used a slip collar as merely a training tool. I believe I said you can get the same effect from a properly place slip as you could from a prong. So let's put that to rest. I HAVE to use a slip-type collar because I show dogs. Big, powerful dogs....lots of distractions...and the little bitty slip needed for that is perfectly fine. Furthermore...it is rarely tightened because my word to my dogs actually means something. Also don't believe I ever said the bizarre ditty you put in there about preventing every little incidence...simply more of people putting words in my mouth. I can and have done trained my dogs to roadwork beside me off leash in THAT environment...which took a lot of time to do...doesn't mean, nor did I say, I could do it anywhere with distraction unknown to THAT environment. 

<<In other words, you keep comparing JQP's "amateur" dogs to high-level "professional" dogs. My dogs walk pretty well on leash, but I don't have the ability, time, patience, or quite frankly the interest in training my dogs to the level of a guide dog, police dog, military dog, etc. Not everyone can train a dog to the level that you're expecting them to, and I'd rather see someone walking their dog on a prong or using another management tool where they anticipate potential problems (eg the icy sidewalk) instead of a dog not getting walked at all. When Squash was an adolescent while he was learning LLW, I walked him on a prong quite regularly. >>


It is not a comparison...but this is how everybody is so eager to portray it as such. My talking about guide dogs or assistance dogs was that at the very least these dogs can ignore outside stimuli....that doesn't take a rocket scientist to achieve that. That sort of respect is actually more about how a dog relates to the owner, and very little about a collar...any collar. I allow my dogs to indulge their squirrel shenanigans when they are in the yard or whatever. But when they are on a leash, regardless of a collar....it is off-limits..again..not rocket science. It is a lifestyle, not a training device. 

I could care less whether some of you out there want to use a prong/pinch collar for control. Control of a dog isn't about training....it s about how your dog lives with you in every other regard.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> I allow my dogs to indulge their squirrel shenanigans when they are in the yard or whatever. But when they are on a leash, regardless of a collar....it is off-limits..again..not rocket science. It is a lifestyle, not a training device.


I'm genuinely curious about how you accomplished this, basically. Also about what the 'lifestyle' is. Hoping you could elaborate on those a little bit.





> Furthermore...it is rarely tightened because my word to my dogs actually means something.


In my experience I've seen very few dogs derive any 'actual meaning' from words in the way you seem to have done. That is, unless the word had been paired with either punishment or reinforcement to create a strong history, first.

So, I'm wondering .... was it punishment, reinforcement, a combination of the two, or was it something else altogether? maybe something magical and mystical that I'm completely unaware of?


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<I'm genuinely curious about how you accomplished this, basically. Also about what the 'lifestyle' is. Hoping you could elaborate on those a little bit.

Furthermore...it is rarely tightened because my word to my dogs actually means something. In my experience I've seen very few dogs derive any 'actual meaning' from words in the way you seem to have done. That is, unless the word had been paired with either punishment or reinforcement to create a strong history, first.

So, I'm wondering .... was it punishment, reinforcement, a combination of the two, or was it something else altogether? maybe something magical and mystical that I'm completely unaware of? >>

You need to look up and understand the tenets of Operant conditioning. There is nothing magical or mystical. You, and other also need to understand the difference between "training" versus simply a "dog/human" understanding. I used to compete competitively in dog obedience competitions....that is training. These days...I don't compete....and in fact I haven't "trained" my dogs to do anything in particular...most of them don't even know the command "sit" because I haven't "trained" them to sit. And guess what...they are perfectly well-behaved despite the fact I haven't "trained" them to conform to a certain body position....they don't steal food, not because I haven't "trained" them not to steal food, but because the know, simply through basic leadership aspects of our relationship that unless it is offered....all food is mine. It is the difference between knowing the difference between behavior and training.

And the reason I know you don't understand training is that you simply define "training" as simply reinforcement or punishment....and that is sadly a very simplistic view. Again...I encourage you to read about and try to truly understand operant conditioning....which will tell you specific behaviors are/can be modified by four consequences which are positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment. The terms can be challenging, because if you are committed to understanding them...it doesn't always make sense. You have to let loose of your pre-conceived notions about the words themselves. But I bet you are, since I listed them, already determining what each means what. 

I cannot tell you how many dogs I know that are supposedly "trained" (even for competition) who are absolutely HORRIBLE in everyday environments. Thus I see supposedly "trained" dogs who run after a squirrel and their owners are screaming "come" and "sit" and "no" and the dogs gloriously ignore them. All because those people may have taught their dog to "sit" but they haven't achieved respect/leadership. Gaining respect/leadership (I realize this list seems to have issues with both of these words, but I'm not privvy to the current political correct terms) isn't about "punishment or reinforcement" as you put it...it is a marriage with the whole aspect of operant conditioning...and I can't even begin to tell you what I employ mostly because you have no idea what I am talking about. So.....do some research and ask questions, even stupid ones like I know I did when I was trying to learn. 

But just so you know...in what seems your limited view of dog behavior...no, I don't hit or beat my dogs to get them to do what I want.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Justdogs, we're all familiar with operant conditioning. That's not what people are asking.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> I cannot tell you how many dogs I know that are supposedly "trained" (even for competition) who are absolutely HORRIBLE in everyday environments. Thus I see supposedly "trained" dogs who run after a squirrel and their owners are screaming "come" and "sit" and "no" and the dogs gloriously ignore them. All because those people may have taught their dog to "sit" but they haven't achieved respect/leadership.


No, it's because these people haven't practiced skills in different environments and/or proofed to varying levels of distractions and dogs aren't awesome at generalizing from one context to another. It's why so many people have the opposite problem as well - dog follows commands at home, but falls apart at a trial because it's a completely new and more distracting environment. 

Training dogs has nothing to do with respect. My dogs will run right past deer when we're skijoring, but it's not because they respect me. It's because they've learned it's not very rewarding to try - I put on the butt brakes and then all the fun ends while we're delayed to regroup and restart. Much more fun for them to just keep running.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

op2:

I think I'm having a training style argument flashback. 

And I think the crux of the problem is this...

There is no "one true way" of anything, let alone dog training. If your "respect based operant conditioning style" works great for you and your dog(s)...great. That does not mean that you have somehow achieved some enlightened level of dog training above and beyond anyone else.

Each of us just finds what works for us and our dogs. If you're looking for everyone to bow down and acknowledge your obvious superiority, you may want to look elsewhere for that. However, if you enjoy discussing the nuts and bolts of different techniques of training...this is a great place for that.

And with that, I'll go back to my popcorn and watch this go the same direction it usually goes when someone new comes in claiming ultimate training superiority.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

packetsmom said:


> There is no "one true way" of anything, let alone dog training.


Vulcan mind meld obviously.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<I read that post, but all I got out of it was, "People disagree with me, so I'm going to insult them!">>
> 
> I'm so sorry that the above is all you got out of it. Can't help that. But what I am grateful for is that guide dogs and assistance dogs have successfully been actually TRAINED not to give into prey drive. Pretty sure the guide dog program wouldn't be as successful as it has for 100 years if blind people were pulled flat on their faces when their dogs give into a "triggered prey drive" as you say. Pretty sure the assistance dog program wouldn't be that successful either if dogs were pulling wheelchair people willy-nilly all over the place simply because the dog saw something that triggered a prey drive...hmmm...I'm thinking these dogs were actually TRAINED...and not simply intimidated by a training DEVICE. See the difference?
> 
> ...


It's clear you have never had a giant breed or a dog with high prey drive or both. Even Josefina as trained as she is will still initially lunge at a springing rabbit. I can't fault her for that, I mean it is who she is. And it's hard to do "be a tree" or penalty hares when she has allredy rewarded herself for engaging (in her mind) the rabbit anyway.

The best I can do is redirect and ask for a command and wait for her to calm down ... And if she was any more powerful then she is you bet I would have a prong on her. But because she is 35lbs soaking wet, and there is no ice to worry about here I don't need one.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Ice or not my GSD way overpowers me. He's even taller than me! IMO it would be irresponsible of me to walk him without a prong until he stops reacting to other dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Ice or not my GSD way overpowers me. He's even taller than me! IMO it would be irresponsible of me to walk him without a prong until he stops reacting to other dogs.


Exactly.

(General comment below) Heck I am not judging anyone who uses a prong, ESP if they have a dog that is stronger then them, giant breed or not . People don't realize how powerful a 50-60lb dog can be when "turned on".

I agree that trying to suppress a drivey dogs drive will only lead to bigger problems. I have seen dogs redirect on handlers because they were suppressing drive.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Heck I am not judging anyone who uses a prong, ESP if they have a dog that is stronger then them, giant breed or not . People don't realize how powerful a 50-60lb dog can be when "turned on".


Absolutely... Xena is deceptively strong. She's probably about 45lbs right now and if she really wanted to she could probably yank me down the street. I'm lucky she's been an absolute angel on leash since the day I got her.

Imagine that! I have one dog who is NOT reactive, naturally stays with me on walks, never pulls; and another who is DA and has pulled so hard on a flat collar he almost made himself pass out. What do you think would happen to my DA dog on a slip collar?

Xena doesn't walk nicely on leash just because she respects me. She is an insecure, shy dog, she feels safe with me. That's just her personality. She follows me off leash at home too, she's never more than a couple steps behind or ahead of me. On walks she is constantly looking up at me and following as close as she can without being underfoot. I've never tested it and don't plan to but I could more than likely walk her in public off leash with no issues.

I use a flat collar on Xena, because I've never needed anything else. I use a prong on Eko because to me it is a matter of safety: his, mine, and everyone else's. Different tools for different dogs!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> op2:
> 
> I think I'm having a training style argument flashback.
> 
> ...


Yet another vulcan mind meld, I was even considering getting some popcorn too.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Absolutely... Xena is deceptively strong. She's probably about 45lbs right now and if she really wanted to she could probably yank me down the street. I'm lucky she's been an absolute angel on leash since the day I got her.
> 
> Imagine that! I have one dog who is NOT reactive, naturally stays with me on walks, never pulls; and another who is DA and has pulled so hard on a flat collar he almost made himself pass out. What do you think would happen to my DA dog on a slip collar?
> 
> ...


I also want to add that even though I emphasize how reactive and aggressive Eko can be he DOES respect me. In fact if there are no dogs around or people at the front door he is extremely obedient and very submissive. You could look at him a certain way and the ears would go down, he would be crawling on his belly or rolling onto his back. He doesn't chew or steal food, and at home and outside with no dogs I only have to tell him to do something once. A stern "NO" is punishment enough for him outside of his walks.

Xena doesn't need a prong and she is the naughtier one, lol.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> However, if you enjoy discussing the nuts and bolts of different techniques of training...this is a great place for that.


 That's what I was sort of hoping for, but I can see it didn't happen. Just a bunch of condescending statements, and accusations that are way off base. So yeah, noted, and moving on now.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it works to deride someone for reducing training to being all about punishment and reinforcement, and then also deride them for not understanding the four quadrants of operant conditioning... which are all either about punishment or reinforcement.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it works to deride someone for reducing training to being all about punishment and reinforcement, and then also deride them for not understanding the four quadrants of operant conditioning... which are all either about punishment or reinforcement.


OMG SO glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. I didn't mention it because no one else did but I literally said "Huh??" out loud!


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

From what I have read it seems like "justdogs" has dogs like one of mine. I got Monty when he was a year old. He is a great little dog to have if you do not expect anything from him. He does not know any commands as far as sit, down, etc. but always comes when called, does not wander away from me no matter where we are and has only had a leash on a very few times and does not walk on it very well as he rarely needs it. I guess if that is all you expect of your dog, they do not need much training. He is housebroken, sleeps with me at night and I would never part with him.

Most people, myself included, expect more from our dogs and know how to teach them so they are well trained. How we go about it depends on the dog and what we are attempting to train them for. If you are not training your dogs you cannot really tell people how you are doing it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yep, like many here, if I think I need a choke chain or prong I will use it, right now I don't, so I don't. But I am sure not going to judge someone who is using those tools, ESP if they are responsible about it, because they are being considerate dog owners. 

Prongs and chokers are no different then leashes and regular collars even a leash I the wrong hands can be abusive.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> Most people, myself included, expect more from our dogs and know how to teach them so they are well trained. How we go about it depends on the dog and what we are attempting to train them for. If you are not training your dogs you cannot really tell people how you are doing it.


Excellent points!!! I always think about what the dog that is being trained needs, as far as motivations (and yes, I do include negative motivations in there, though as few as possible, preferably none), to accomplish really good solid performance of whatever they are being trained to do. I keep forgetting that everyone's standards of what is required can be very different....(probably because the dogs I've done training with I try to train to MY standards). So the combination of the handler/owner's expectations and the dog's personality (how compliant they are) really need to be what defines training and the involved tools. 

I was on FB the other day and I follow "The Naughty Dogge", and I like her points of view, and there was one the other day that I think is really relevant to these points...I actually had considered sharing it previously but didn't...now with these points I think it is even more relevant:


> Dogs Can Make Choices
> 
> Karen Pryor, our clicker guru, writes how her positively reinforced trained dolphins on occasion just decided not to work. Some days the rewards just weren't worth the effort. For a dolphin, you really don’t have much choice.
> 
> ...


I love how she explained this. It is something that people tend to ignore, the ability of the dog to make complicated choices, and the need to tap into the work ethic to help define how those choices are made. I add to this in my own mind and think sure, some dogs might respond best to aversives, some don't, and in the big picture, that is irrelevant, so long as the intended outcome doesn't take away from the dog's ability to choose, but contributes to its ability to make the right choice, and remain a healthy, happy well trained dog. I also like how she includes that it isn't an option for the dog not to work even for the family dog rushing onto the busy street. Rock solid training of necessary commands isn't just for the police dog, or service dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sassafras said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it works to deride someone for reducing training to being all about punishment and reinforcement, and then also deride them for not understanding the four quadrants of operant conditioning... which are all either about punishment or reinforcement.


My original response to Justdogs' post was pretty sarcastic, I admit. I rewrote it before I hit the "post quick reply" button, so it never saw the light of day. But yeah. It's pretty safe to assume that people who have thousands of posts on a dog forum, and are participating in threads in the training section, _and_ are asking for specifics about how you used punishment, reinforcement, or a combination of the two in your training, have heard of and understand the four quadrants.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> My original response to Justdogs' post was pretty sarcastic, I admit. I rewrote it before I hit the "post quick reply" button, so it never saw the light of day. But yeah. It's pretty safe to assume that people who have thousands of posts on a dog forum, and are participating in threads in the training section, _and_ are asking for specifics about how you used punishment, reinforcement, or a combination of the two in your training, have heard of and understand the four quadrants.


I will admit to not understanding entirely the four quadrants (even though I have over 1000 posts lol) though I might use them and not even realize it xD


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I will admit to not understanding entirely the four quadrants (even though I have over 1000 posts lol) though I might use them and not even realize it xD


Despite the unfortunate font choice, this page is decent. It gives some real-world human and dog examples that explain what each term means. It's a beginner's guide, so fairly basic.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I will admit to not understanding entirely the four quadrants (even though I have over 1000 posts lol) though I might use them and not even realize it xD


I had a decent understanding of them, but started to put them out of my mind. It is great for explaining the theory to another person when talking about dogs, but generally I find it better to understand what my dog needs, not the technical and theoretical placement of what I am doing in the quadrants. In circumstances like training Caeda, I find it goes much easier not getting bogged down in terminology. I generally look at things as punishment and reinforcement, just the two, and consider (in my own head mind you) -R just as a plain old punishment (if I'm remembering he quadrants right lol)....and -P as a type of reward, just different kinds of punishment and reward and various extents of each, that function differently depending on what I am doing with the dog and why. It is important to understand what I'm doing, but the terminology....not so much.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Despite the unfortunate font choice, this page is decent. It gives some real-world human and dog examples that explain what each term means. It's a beginner's guide, so fairly basic.


Thanks for that, I always find the links you post very interesting


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Crantastic, I appreciate what you said about the sarcastic remark as a result of my post. Believe me, I am not trying to be controversial...but just because you say people on this forum have been exposed to operant conditioning doesn't mean they truly understand it. The last time I was on this forum, I did a search of your posts on training matters, and I actually love the things you have written. But just because you have imparted great knowledge, doesn't mean everybody "gets" it. I've been formally (and informally) training both my dogs and other people's dogs for over 30 years. I actually started out using the "old way" which I'm sure you understand simply as "Koehler" because by gosh he trained dogs for Disney and sheesh....we all love those Disney dogs. But I knew something was wrong...that's when I went hell-bent in the OTHER direction....much, much better...and still the best way to actually "train" dogs to perform "acts" but then there is a bit of a grey field. 

Because even then....I didn't understand operant conditioning...and I began talking on-line with a person...long distance...just over the internet...when, after I was dissatisfied with the "popular mantras" of training dogs. She was extremely patient with me (and I'm not always that patient) when I would go off on tirades....because understanding words of operant conditioning doesn't automatically equate to actual training issues. And one of the problems is simply people's views/experiences with words such as "negative" and "postive" and "punishment"....these scientific terms get in the way, emotionally with some people. And this is where I think we are....people who think they need a prong collar simply because they have a 130 lb dog as opposed to a 30 lb dog.

So...you want me to, and other people want me to "explain" exactly what I do...and because this thread has become about a training device. If, as you say, people on this forum truly understand operant conditioning, then people who purport to have "trained" dogs but still use a prong collar are using the two of the quadrants of operant conditioning that SHOLDN'T be necessary...negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Additionally...if people truly understand that basic tenet...then they may also want to understand that certain breeds....or even certain dogs of unknown breeds, react truly horribly to a prong collar.

I remember in my last year of training public dogs... after I had grasped truly understanding dogs...I had a 7 month old rottweiler in my class. Yep...she was a punk...and yep, she was owned by people who should never own a rottweiler. True to her breed, she was dominant, and she was ALLOWED early on, because her owners had no clue...to "somewhat" use her teeth to get her way....everytime they wanted to force her to do something (even as something as simply as "sit") she would use her teeth, meaning simply grasping their hands. They freaked and became afraid of her. I saw this the first night they were in my class. I used this 7 month puppy as my "demonstration" dog that evening, and yep...when I asked her to sit...she grasped my hand...and I ignored it. She wasn't "mean" or "aggressive" she simply had learned if she used her teeth, she got her way. I didn't "correct" her...I simply ignored her. What I didn't know, was that the "officers" of the obedience club I belonged to for 10 years were watching this, but every week, this dog never again challenged me, simply by my ignoring her "mouthing." She was still doing it a little bit with her owners, because they hadn't YET fully understood that THEIR OWN "emotions" regarding this...their um...LEADERSHIP was at the level that she never did it again, but we were making progress. In the fourth week, when I was so happy about the progress, the "officers" of the club took me aside for a "private chat" and asked me "when I was going to "correct" this 7 month old rottie puppy for "biting." Huh? She WASN'T biting. 

Well....without my knowledge...one night after a successful training session...a "friend" of the club was there who apparently owned rotties for 10 years in SCHUZTHUND work. The officers of that club apparently thought this PUPPY was somehow not progressing fast enough, and while I was talking to one of my students, I heard SCREAMING out in the parking lot...the screaming of a dog. Upon running out there...I saw this "schutzhund guy with this 7 month old puppy, now on a prong collar, STRUNG UP IN THE AIR. 4 weeks of my hard work with both the owners and the dog were down the drain. The same club who a year before advocated old-fashioned "alpha rolls" on dogs in a sea of other dogs and were surprised that a doberman ate the face of it's owner because of it. I'm so freaking tired of people who "think they know it all" attach devices to dogs and do things to dogs as a symbol of power, when it is NOT about power (the dogs usually win, unless you actually beat the poor things into submission).

What I find odd is that people in this thread suddenly began talking about "ice." They "have" to use a prong when it is icy because they are "afraid" that their dog will take off. Well....if you feel comfortable in the summertime because maybe you have better footing for yourself to control your dog...but you don't have that footing in the wintertime....YES....something is wrong. It SHOULDN'T make a difference. Everybody is wanting me to "inform" them what I "do" with my dogs so that I don't have to use a prong on ice...someone...who obviously hasn't paid attention to my posts said I obviously don't understand large or prey driven dogs...um.....I have large, prey driven dogs. 

I trained my dogs for leash work with mostly positive reinforcement and negative punishment (yep...that last one sounds awful, but look it up). I didn't "train" my dogs specifically for Icy conditions...to me...that falls into basic manners...and THAT has to do with what seems like to all of you the bad word of "leadership" and that simply means hundreds of little do's and don'ts around the house...it IS an aura the dog can feel...my dogs know my will is greater than their will early on...it is a feeling...it IS follow through...they know I don't care that it is raining outside....they will go outside to eliminate...they know a sandwich on a table is MINE, not theirs....they know it doesn't matter if the sidewalk is icy or not...they know how to behave on a flat collar. 

This is why I haven't answered what I find inane questions about "how" I do this...because it surprises me you all say your dogs are trained, yet need a device for certain conditions....it isn't a "technique." It isn't a word, it isn't a specific correction...it is simply that MY dogs don't see ice as a way of pulling me on my face. It isn't about the four quadrants of operant conditioning...especially since I believe in positive methods...so FOR SURE a dog that loves pulling you on your face in ice...how are you going to "up" that positive reward? Dealing with dogs isn't JUST about "training." It is about something else. Like I said...even after being successful in competition events regarding obedience....my current dogs "kinda" know "sit" and I could care less they know that command. I certainly KNOW how to "train" a dog to sit. I can do it easily. But my dogs...who don't even know "sit" also don't pull me on my face on ice. It is the difference between "training" and truly understanding "behavior." And since "leadership" is such a horrible word on this forum....not sure where to go.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Thank you for the long post! I'm busy working right now and can't write a long post in response, but I think we've all gotten some wires crossed. Most regulars here train using primarily positive methods, and regardless of how we train, we don't recommend aversives to anyone who asks for advice because of the very real possibility that they could seriously mess up their relationship with their dog/harm their dog.

We also agree that dogs need leadership, although most new people who sign up here conflate leadership and dominance (as defined by TV personalities like Cesar Millan -- so they think it means being the "alpha," using techniques like pinning and alpha rolls, stuff like that), so we don't tend to use the term a whole lot. We've had discussions before where we agreed that dogs need leaders/teachers, though. I like this blog post, which explains how I feel about it.

I can't speak for everyone else in this thread, but I believe that most of the regulars here consider a prong to be a management tool rather than a training tool, and would be just as horrified by someone stringing a dog up on a prong collar as you were. Hopefully some others will weigh in, though!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> Crantastic, I appreciate what you said about the sarcastic remark as a result of my post. Believe me, I am not trying to be controversial...but just because you say people on this forum have been exposed to operant conditioning doesn't mean they truly understand it. The last time I was on this forum, I did a search of your posts on training matters, and I actually love the things you have written. But just because you have imparted great knowledge, doesn't mean everybody "gets" it. I've been formally (and informally) training both my dogs and other people's dogs for over 30 years. I actually started out using the "old way" which I'm sure you understand simply as "Koehler" because by gosh he trained dogs for Disney and sheesh....we all love those Disney dogs. But I knew something was wrong...that's when I went hell-bent in the OTHER direction....much, much better...and still the best way to actually "train" dogs to perform "acts" but then there is a bit of a grey field.
> 
> Because even then....I didn't understand operant conditioning...and I began talking on-line with a person...long distance...just over the internet...when, after I was dissatisfied with the "popular mantras" of training dogs. She was extremely patient with me (and I'm not always that patient) when I would go off on tirades....because understanding words of operant conditioning doesn't automatically equate to actual training issues. And one of the problems is simply people's views/experiences with words such as "negative" and "postive" and "punishment"....these scientific terms get in the way, emotionally with some people. And this is where I think we are....people who think they need a prong collar simply because they have a 130 lb dog as opposed to a 30 lb dog.
> 
> ...


I for one have never said that I use a prong or a choker NOW. I HAVE in the past when I thought I needed it, and I WOULD in the future should I have need for it again (I still have it!) My dogs walk on flat collars now.

I am curious, what kind of dog do you have? you talk about SD's and guide dogs, which I assume are labs or goldens or something like that (correct me if I am wrong) which are hyper dogs with a lot of ENERGY, but are considerably lower drive then a hard core working or high prey/work drive dog. 

CapJack's dog (he is one of the biggest here, just using him as a reference) is an Anatolian/shepherd cross (right???) As someone who has owned Anatolians and GSDs, I can tell you that trained or not, there are times when a flat collar or even a choke chain ain't gonna cut it.

If Josefina was his size you bet your bones she would have at least a choke chain on, because she is very high prey drive and when a rabbit springs out of the grass (or a bird, lizard, deer, hog, coyote, bobcat, cow etc ...). I just stop and be a tree if she blows off "come", let her hit the end of the leash, when she does she comes back, and we wait until she is calmed down, or we play a little tug (I always carry a toy with me) to defuse the tension or whatever, then we continue on. 

the ONLY reason Josefina is not on a prong is because she is 35lbs soaking wet, so even on (hypothetical since we live in south Texas) ice she ain't pulling 140lb me down any time soon.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> .I saw this "schutzhund guy with this 7 month old puppy, now on a prong collar, STRUNG UP IN THE AIR.


NO ONE here is advocating anything even remotely close to this. 



> I'm so freaking tired of people who "think they know it all" attach devices to dogs and do things to dogs as a symbol of power, when it is NOT about power (the dogs usually win, unless you actually beat the poor things into submission).


Since when did anyone say a prong or any other device was a "symbol of power" and who in their right mind beats a dog into submission either? This is not at all what we're talking about as using something for management during the on-going training process (and I think that training never ends, there is always something new to be learned or something to be refined or something to proof with a new distraction).



> .so FOR SURE a dog that loves pulling you on your face in ice...how are you going to "up" that positive reward?


My dogs don't see pulling me on my face as any sort of reward or positive at all. The one time I tripped while running (my fault, not the dog's), Chester was standing right there waiting for me to get up, certainly not seeing me on the ground as a reward. I'm not talking about training for icy conditions as something special and separate (heck, the dogs walk MORE carefully on ice 99% of the time anyway since they too can slip), I'm saying that I use it as a fail-safe for certain dogs and certain conditions/circumstances. As progress is made, the occasions which I may use a prong become less and less and less. 

Some people use no-pull harnesses as a supposedly non-aversive training device, there are dogs that respond worse to those than to a prong and they have the potential to alter a dog's gait in a manner that can cause pain and possible problems down the road. A flat collar in the wrong hands can do as much or more damage than a prong. A head collar can be used wrong and be dangerous (and I think for some dogs, there is no right way to use it). A prong is but one tiny component of all the training and interaction and can be used safely. 



> I trained my dogs for leash work with mostly positive reinforcement and negative punishment (yep...that last one sounds awful, but look it up). I didn't "train" my dogs specifically for Icy conditions...to me...that falls into basic manners...


Didn't need to look it up, I know what it is. What people are asking is WHAT method has worked so well for you? If you start with a large, strong and untrained dog and you need to exercise that dog, what do you do? If your methods are across the board successful, then let us learn from you. 



> Like I said...even after being successful in competition events regarding obedience....my current dogs "kinda" know "sit" and I could care less they know that command. I certainly KNOW how to "train" a dog to sit. I can do it easily.


Sit is easy to train and it can be quite useful. So saying that you could train sit but don't bother to spend 10 minutes to do it doesn't really make much sense or bolster your point about it all being about a "relationship"
Useful task + easy to train? No reason not to. 


Basically, I think you are reading a lot into how and when people here (on the whole) use training devices and how they train in general. I don't think leadership is a bad word or a bad thing, the problem with using the term online is that it has been co-opted by people and trainers who would do things like string a puppy up on a choke or a prong. So by avoiding the term, it helps avoid misunderstandings.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

one time I fell while running (tripped on a tree root, not the dogs fault) Josefina came running back going all "OMG are you ok???" she was super worried and even tried to push herself under me to try to help me up .

Also I would also insist that no one on here is advocating or supporting cruel methods like stringing dogs up and choking them out.

though I think I have read where you put them on a slip lead and "let them pull until they stop" which IMO is kind of the same thing


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> though I think I have read where you put them on a slip lead and "let them pull until they stop" which IMO is kind of the same thing





Justdogs said:


> I had him on a simple slip lead for an hour, properly placed, thus, he DIDN'T choke himself. What he KNEW was *an extremely uncomfortable sensation of a properly placed simple leash* IF/WHEN he pulled, combined with the fact that when he pulled, I simply stopped going forward.


Extremely uncomfortable situation which exists until the dog stops doing something? Sounds a lot like negative reinforcement to me.



> If, as you say, people on this forum truly understand operant conditioning, then people who purport to have "trained" dogs but still use a prong collar are using the two of the quadrants of operant conditioning that SHOLDN'T be necessary...negative reinforcement and positive punishment.


Negative reinforcement can be used in something like BAT for a dog-reactive dog by removing the reactive dog from the presence of another dog (the aversive) to reward good behavior (not reacting, looking away)

I think that what the individual dog see as aversive has to be considered. On some dogs, a physical positive punishment such as a quick leash correction is far less aversive than the negative punishment of say, removing attention from their human. A verbal "NO" is positive punishment and some dogs will shut down with a sharply worded NO but overall it isn't seen as some horrible form of punishment.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> What people are asking is WHAT method has worked so well for you? If you start with a large, strong and untrained dog and you need to exercise that dog, what do you do? If your methods are across the board successful, then let us learn from you.


This is what I've been waiting to read.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

cookieface said:


> This is what I've been waiting to read.


Me too. (tooshort)


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> most of the regulars here consider a prong to be a management tool rather than a training tool, and would be just as horrified by someone stringing a dog up on a prong collar as you were. Hopefully some others will weigh in, though!


I do use it as a management tool the absolute majority of the time. There are weaknesses with some things that get Caeda's attention (especially after our recent cabin fever due to evil weather), do I have to train those more, sure, am I able to train 100% of the time with her, nope, some days it is a just for fun walk and she certainly is plenty strong to either re-injure my shoulder or drag me on my belly down the street. 

Have I used it during some training, yes. I will say though, one of the things that turned me off of our local Schutzhund club was the insistent use of it for obedience/heelwork. If the dog goes too slow during the turn POP-POP-POP constantly. I hated that, especially when I was told "not hard enough". When it comes to the prong as a training tool, using the slow turn for example, if the slow turn happened too much, I obviously hadn't trained it enough, so I continued to train it with POSITIVE reinforcement. Once she was doing it consistently, if she had the prong on during training, and I did a turn and she was slow, I'd give a single pop (strong enough to not be a nag, but far from hard enough to make her yelp....like I've seen many people do), she is back in position and all is well. If position lags again, its obviously more than a minor lapse, it is a bigger problem, so back to the drawing board, drilling with treats only (maybe pressure on the flat collar to guide her), figure out what might be causing it (outside influences getting her attention, me not keeping it, maybe I should take her to potty immediately before going on the field) get it back to consistent, with the odd rare reminder. 

As for the jerks that would hang a puppy on one....they deserve a beating, actually no, they deserve to get the same treatment. I would never condone such a thing except in one instance....a truly vicious attacking dog and that is the only option to keep yourself (or someone else) from getting mauled (and I don't mean nipping puppy, I mean a big strong dog about to do you or has already done major damage). 

Of course that is my opinions and uses on the prong, the fact that I use one, I know makes me an absolute demon in the eyes of some people. Sure, go ahead, think so. I'm not sure why I even bother ever responding, there is rarely an "agree to disagree", use of a prong means irresponsible, ownership, lack of training, lack of knowledge, understanding, outright cruelty and a ton of other things. If I hear a good functional argument that actually fixes every potential training issue I may have, and will make it so Caeda instantly NEVER pulls on a leash again, and management is completely unnecessary (meaning she has been proofed with every stimulus and every situation), then I'd be willing to try it and will start believing that I am the evil moron that some of this conversation would lead others to think of me. Until I hear that argument, and those impeccable, perfect training techniques, I'll just agree to disagree, and know my dog is healthy and happy and that I have a good relationship, something no one can judge unless they have seen us.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Have I used it during some training, yes. I will say though, one of the things that turned me off of our local Schutzhund club was the insistent use of it for obedience/heelwork. If the dog goes too slow during the turn POP-POP-POP constantly.


I believe a pop-pop-pop (and I don't think these are corrections) in schutzhund and competitive obedience is to bring up a dog's drive. I know Janice Gunn conditions her dogs to leash pops (these are light tugs and she doesn't use a prong) as a good and exciting thing to bring up her dog's drive.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Unless justdogs is talking about when they we tryin to get a dog to release and they pull up on the dog's collar to get them to release. That's technically not "stringing the dog up". 

also anyone who has used a prong knows that they don't actually get tight enough to choke the dog out, a slip lead gets MUCH more tighter then a prong or even a choke chain (because a choke chain loses a as soon adores sure is taken off, where a slip lead sometimes does not.).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> This is why I haven't answered what I find inane questions about "how" I do this...because it surprises me you all say your dogs are trained, yet need a device for certain conditions....it isn't a "technique."


Nobody is saying it is a "technique," they are saying it is "management." Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with management. But I also don't believe dogs follow cues because they respect people, either, or that there is such a thing as a 100% reliable dog.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Hector4 said:


> I believe a pop-pop-pop (and I don't think these are corrections) in schutzhund and competitive obedience is to bring up a dog's drive


 You do have a good point, and I would agree if I hadn't been told "not hard enough". I did it hard enough to the person's satisfaction and Caeda yelped (at that point I truly did feel like a demon!). That is not something she does easily. If the dog is ok with it/conditioned to it and it does bring up their drive (and it isn't making them yelp) I won't trash that approach. There are TONS of other ways that Caeda's drive can be brought up that I prefer to use though.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea, I don't think people were talking about using a prong as a training tool (Stop pulling! *pop pop* Stop!), but as a management tool WHILE training is in progress. I don't use a seatbelt to prevent me from crashing, but to prevent me from being seriously injured in case I -do- crash. 

Plenty of the dogs we get at the shelter have never been trained on how to walk on a leash properly, and the majority of them could pull me on my face if I wasn't prepared for it. As a result, I take precautions to prevent it from happening. Taking one step at a time, leaning my weight back, bracing on doorways, watching out for floor mats getting wrinkled up, etc. That kind of thing would never be conducive to actually giving a dog exercise on a walk. This past weekend I was bringing in a 80lb-ish bully-ridgeback mix who is all muscle and horrific on a leash (he's a gem otherwise though) and came across a section of floor that had recently been mopped. I opted to ask someone on the other side of the mopped area to grab his leash from me rather than risk crossing and slipping and slamming my head against the concrete walls or floor.

So yea, there are lots of situations where a dog could overpower me, especially if I wasn't expecting it (like if they saw something I didn't see and lunged after it) so saying to 'just stand still' isn't really helpful advice. 

Also, did I miss the part where it was explained why a slip lead is better/safer than a prong?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Nobody is saying it is a "technique," they are saying it is "management." Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with management. But I also don't believe dogs follow cues because they respect people, either, or that there is such a thing as a 100% reliable dog.


have to differ on the respect thing/ working relationship,, I'll be the first one to say "thank you" to my crew for choosing me over a rabbit, and especially about my Clydesdales.. Anything I ever worked with a dog that clearly out powered me from my 60 lb dog, 90 lbs to the 140 lb one, was all I knew to work with the Clydes, or the llamas who 2000 lbs and 500 lbs. That is why I enjoy hands free training so much because it teaches you both (human and animal) to work together) It teaches me to be aware of my body language, my position am I drawing an animal in, or am I pushing them away in the direction I need from them. It teaches an animal to do it by themselves and not depend on me to do it for them. 

My llamas are not trained...lol Glanced over at my pasture and knew that my one llama was not running on a hill "that was in my pasture" Great lol ... 14 years llamas has never been out of my pasture lol ... Great ,, how is this going to work.... So I get in my truck to drive over there.. And Ryan comes running up to me all happy with himself..(look at me I'm free) lol . And I'm standing there thinking in my head. Knowing the llamas what motivates them from working with them,, it's not Ryan I need to do anything with... It's the llamas still in the pasture that are the key.... so I get Kicker and Noah to follow me along the fence line and that is the easier ticket for Ryan walking on his own with us coming back to the property gate for him to get back on the property.. I got the livestock so I would have experience of working the dogs (who didn't grow up with farm animals) and learning how they learned to be around them and work with them, with dogs of different natures and drives. I find the animals amazing for what they will do on their own, what they will choose with you and not always about themselves when I have needed it and clearly expected them to be the animal just because they animals.. They always surprise me.. That if you can avoid teaching them to struggle against you, they learn to work with you freely in all areas .

I personally work towards and depend on gaining with time/experience of opportunities a committed working relationship with the animals I have, and it's not rocket science it's just time spent working together (when you have to depend on the animals doing it themselves). Not everyone can walk out their door into free open space. I get that, but even in a small safe area working free hand works too... 

For me there is that 90% that they are willing to work with you, respect that they working with a team member ""as a team member" that has their own part of the job


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I don't use a seatbelt to prevent me from crashing, but to prevent me from being seriously injured in case I -do- crash.


Well put!!!




ireth0 said:


> So yea, there are lots of situations where a dog could overpower me, especially if I wasn't expecting it (like if they saw something I didn't see and lunged after it) so saying to 'just stand still' isn't really helpful advice.
> 
> Also, did I miss the part where it was explained why a slip lead is better/safer than a prong?


Yeah, Caeda can overpower me, stand still....well, I can try, as I get road rash. I was (early on) told by someone that it was my fault for getting a dog I couldn't handle (Ugggggh), such a frustrating and useless statement. I really prefer not using the prong as a training tool, though as I mention I have (and when I have there is a lot of treats and toys used as well), but I do prefer training just positive despite the fact that Caeda actually does respond to the prong quite well if it is used as a training tool. As a management tool to keep on walking and take a break from training, absolutely, and also to help in those times she is a little off the wall (she's got cabin fever right now, so she'll be a little wound until she's had a solid week of hour long walks plus play).

I do wonder about the slip lead being better than the prong though...It leaves more of an ability for the dog to gradually pull more and more and choke itself out, especially in the hands of an inexperienced user....or an inept one, and it IS aversive too. The sense of slip leads being less aversive than prongs has always baffled me....its not like prongs are meant to be sharpened, and it would take one heck of a lot to actually puncture. I put it on my leg and reefed really hard on it, harder than I ever would correcting a dog, while testing the prong on myself before I put it on Caeda....I left dimples and a couple of reddish spots because it twisted, but not even close to punctures...(leg not neck I know).


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Well put!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not too 1-up you but my family has a thing where if we can't use it on ourselves then we can't use it on the animal.
Me and one of my cousins took turns putting the prong (with and without rubber tips) on our necks and reefing on each other's necks. It was interesting but not as bad as we thought it would be.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Also "just stand still" isn't going to teach a dog anything that is self- reinforcing by getting all excited and turned on by whatever they see. It would be more constructive to retreat further back (if possible) from the trigger then just to stand there while the dog goes magic bananas and gets even more riled up.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Flaming said:


> not too 1-up you but my family has a thing where if we can't use it on ourselves then we can't use it on the animal.
> Me and one of my cousins took turns putting the prong (with and without rubber tips) on our necks and reefing on each other's necks. It was interesting but not as bad as we thought it would be.


 My DH did the neck, I've got a neck/shoulder thing going on so I didn't want to mess with it. We have the same rule around here......e collar got thoroughly pre-tested too. The only thing we didn't pre test is the head halter, couldn't figure out how to do that lol. 




OwnedbyACDs said:


> Also "just stand still" isn't going to teach a dog anything that is self- reinforcing by getting all excited and turned on by whatever they see. It would be more constructive to retreat further back (if possible) from the trigger then just to stand there while the dog goes magic bananas and gets even more riled up.


Hee hee, magic bananas. 
I agree, most of the time standing still makes NO difference if there is a trigger. I have managed to stand still a couple of times, only because I've caught Caeda's ear perk and change in gait in that moment she sees something (or saw it first and stopped to get her attention). I rarely manage to catch her at the perfect time since its only a couple of steps between the ear perk and the magic bananas.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> My DH did the neck, I've got a neck/shoulder thing going on so I didn't want to mess with it. We have the same rule around here......e collar got thoroughly pre-tested too. The only thing we didn't pre test is the head halter, couldn't figure out how to do that lol.
> 
> Hee hee, magic bananas.
> I agree, most of the time standing still makes NO difference if there is a trigger. I have managed to stand still a couple of times, only because I've caught Caeda's ear perk and change in gait in that moment she sees something (or saw it first and stopped to get her attention). I rarely manage to catch her at the perfect time since its only a couple of steps between the ear perk and the magic bananas.


Yeah only if you are looking at your dog 100% of the time and always paying attention to them and nothing else, but not even I do that so it's easier to stop the reaction then to try to predict it lol.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Part of the problem with testing e collars, chokes, and prongs on humans this way, is that there is a knowledge and anticipation present. And it's basically a one-time event, then it's over.

Try leaving it on yourself or your OH though, then have the other person nick or correct occasionally and at random whenever the recipient least expects it, throughout the course of an afternoon for example. I bet it will change perception.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Actually my "perception" of a shock collar is not to hurt your dog but to get their attention. They should not yelp when you push the button but even if you are just getting an ear flick or a look towards you, it has worked. I know if you are using it for snake awareness that would be different but I am talking about just using it for most people.

My sister's Redbone hound would just take off when we were walking out in the Valley off leash with our dogs. For a long time we just did not take him with us. She finally got a shock collar and from then on, he could run and play off leash with the other dogs with never a problem with him putting his nose down and just taking off. She knew how to use it properly and he was so much happier being able to race around with the other dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Part of the problem with testing e collars, chokes, and prongs on humans this way, is that there is a knowledge and anticipation present. And it's basically a one-time event, then it's over.
> 
> Try leaving it on yourself or your OH though, then have the other person nick or correct occasionally and at random whenever the recipient least expects it, throughout the course of an afternoon for example. I bet it will change perception.


I stand by the fact that its not the tool its the hand that holds the leash that makes the difference weather the tool becomes cruel or not.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> Actually my "perception" of a shock collar is not to hurt your dog but to get their attention. They should not yelp when you push the button but even if you are just getting an ear flick or a look towards you, it has worked. I know if you are using it for snake awareness that would be different but I am talking about just using it for most people.


 That is the way I try to use it, an attention getter. The only problem with that is there is some weird zen magic to picking the right level at the right time and circumstance (also the right collar, some feel "sharper" than others). For instance, Caeda never minded the vibrate function, she doesn't find it aversive in any way shape or form, the first time I tried it she tilted her head like "what was that", inquisitive, not panicked or even troubled. If she is sniffing in the yard, and perhaps was too distracted to hear me when I called her name, I might use the vibrate, and that does it, it gets her attention, on the other hand if she is racing at high speed or in full on drive mode, well....that's when the level debate really comes in. 

IMO that is more the way it should be used (snake training aside), but even a careful user can fall prey to tons of pitfalls with them, ones that I was lucky enough to have had explained to me by experienced users (not in person, but in a forum). Frustration, overreaction and going too fast in training are very easy ones to fall prey to. The person using them is the biggest possible pitfall of all, and I head to teach myself a lot of observation and control before I started using it for anything other than strictly recall training sessions. I've made mistakes, I admit, but I am lucky I have a wonderful resilient dog that very much reaps the benefits that she has gotten from wearing that collar, just like your sister's dog Kyllobernese, she is SO happy being able to romp off-leash, she has always hated being leashed, no matter how hard I've tried, and it has been a great thing for her, but there are TONS of dogs that shouldn't even see one, and unfortunately those pitfalls (especially "speed training") tend to really hurt a lot of these dogs. I know the general consensus is not to advise on aversives, but, IMO, I'd rather send someone to some good resources so they can learn about it rather than say "well I guess I'll have to figure it out myself", they might figure out that it isn't for them/their dog, or they'll learn to use it carefully. It exists, people will use it, hopefully they'll use it responsibly


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I totally agree that there are a lot of people who I would never like to see with a remote in their hand. I would not advise it to anyone unless they first learn how to use it properly because it is not a case of "shock your dog" and it is instantly trained. I have heard people say they are going to get one to "teach" their dog how to come when called. Why they think because they shock their dog that all of a sudden it is going to know when you say come, it means to come to you especially if they have been saying come since it was a puppy and it has learned it does not mean come.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree that prongs and e collars shouldn't be used unless the handler has an understanding of how and why they work and to make it "mistake proof" say if you are snake training, I used one to teach snake aversion to Bear, the JRT (we used the "page only" setting, no electric shock was used). BUT I took a class that showed me how to use it and when. Like not to use it when he is looking else where then the "snake" (we used a dead one we had killed) and to keep the other dogs away so he doesn't associate anything else with the page, only the snake.

the same thing can happen with prongs, on some dogs a prong or even a choke chain can aggravate them even more if they are reactive, I wont use a prong or sometimes, even choke chain on a reactive dog. I have seen dogs who aren't reactive become that way after having prongs on them, and I have seen the reverse, a dog become less reactive when the prong comes off.

I have also tried them on myself (and yes I have had them yanked when I wasn't paying attention) and while its startling, its certainly not overly painful or damaging. But its the surprise that can set some dogs off, so I will always err on the side of caution.


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## TreeFiter (Apr 4, 2014)

With regard to the original post and concerns about assertive training or authoritative training, I would suggest doing more research. Look up Ian Dunbar, and see what he has to say about training animals. He is a proponent of positive dog training, and is a legend in the animal behavior field. There are a lot of people that think big powerful dogs require forceful training, but its not true. Would you try to train a bear by force? The bigger and more powerful the animal becomes, the more important it is that you don't rely on force because that animal has a much better chance of overpowering you. 


As for the discussions on e-collars, I have used them quite a bit with my dogs. I was able to do amazing things with them. However, the more I learn, the more I realize that they are not necessary. They are a great tool, and if you feel you need it, it has the potential to work very well. The big problem with them is that people don't bother to understand the process. Training with an e-collar is training none the less. Its not a magic button. 

What I realize now is that the e-collar isn't behind the results I have seen. The results were based on spending time with my dogs, giving commands (verbal, or via an e-collar) and rewarding the correct response.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

unfortunately in today's fast paced society, people want a quick fix to problems :/


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

TreeFiter said:


> However, the more I learn, the more I realize that they are not necessary. They are a great tool, and if you feel you need it, it has the potential to work very well. The big problem with them is that people don't bother to understand the process. Training with an e-collar is training none the less. Its not a magic button.


Absolutely!!! I agree too that they are not truly or entirely necessary, but I've found that (at least for some dogs, mine in particular) they do make some things far more possible to have happen (She was a nightmare with recall until I did the training with the e collar, now she is stellar, and I rarely touch buttons). She is very trustworthy off-leash, and yes, that safety net (or crutch for those who prefer that connotation) gives me a lot of peace of mind. If I had never used it, I 'might' be getting to her level of trustworthiness now at 3 years old though, instead she got to that level at around 1 1/2-2 years old (and that involved about 6 months of consistent training, tough independent pup!). 



TreeFiter said:


> What I realize now is that the e-collar isn't behind the results I have seen. The results were based on spending time with my dogs, giving commands (verbal, or via an e-collar) and rewarding the correct response.


/\/\/\/\ THIS!!!!!! Absolutely!! Fantastically put TreeFiter! Still rewarding is a huge key, and the time spent is invaluable, the e collar isn't, and should never be the center of the training...the dog, the human and the good experience are the absolute most important part of any training regardless of any tool that may or may not be used. Without the time, and the good experience it isn't training, and it is pretty useless.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

whats sad is if people would do the BARE minimum with their dogs, in most cases (for the average Joe owner and dog) that would be enough to negate the majority of problems that typically are encountered (pulling on lead, not coming, etc ...). The problem is that people just don't want to spend the time. 

I don't see how someone could not want to spend time on or with their dog, personally. I love working with mine


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Part of the problem with testing e collars, chokes, and prongs on humans this way, is that there is a knowledge and anticipation present. And it's basically a one-time event, then it's over.
> 
> Try leaving it on yourself or your OH though, then have the other person nick or correct occasionally and at random whenever the recipient least expects it, throughout the course of an afternoon for example. I bet it will change perception.


That's why I gave Angela the other end of the leash and it was more like a few hours randomly being reefed on (yes about an hour of that was drunk) and then repeat with ends of leash exchanged.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Shell said:


> Vulcan mind meld obviously.




/too short


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Justdogs... do you work closely with a lot of guide or service dogs? Very few placed dogs work on a flat collar. The majority of dogs we place work on a slip (choke) collar. 

Sorry, just had to address that. Guide dog schools are WELL aware that no dog is perfect, hence why we do a lot of matching to make sure that stronger dogs get placed with stronger people.



Justdogs said:


> But what I am grateful for is that guide dogs and assistance dogs have successfully been actually TRAINED not to give into prey drive. Pretty sure the guide dog program wouldn't be as successful as it has for 100 years if blind people were pulled flat on their faces when their dogs give into a "triggered prey drive" as you say. Pretty sure the assistance dog program wouldn't be that successful either if dogs were pulling wheelchair people willy-nilly all over the place simply because the dog saw something that triggered a prey drive...hmmm...I'm thinking these dogs were actually TRAINED...and not simply intimidated by a training DEVICE. See the difference?


Nooo, this is incorrect. You can't train out instinct. You can mitigate it and teach an alternate desired behavior, but you can't train it away. The fact that we don't have dogs pulling their handlers all over the place due to prey drive is the result of purposeful breeding, not training. Dogs with prey drive are released from the program and never make it to be placed with disabled handlers. This is why we don't use breeds like greyhounds or border collies - because you can't train away an instinctual response.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Justdogs... do you work closely with a lot of guide or service dogs? Very few placed dogs work on a flat collar. The majority of dogs we place work on a slip (choke) collar.
> 
> Sorry, just had to address that. Guide dog schools are WELL aware that no dog is perfect, hence why we do a lot of matching to make sure that stronger dogs get placed with stronger people.
> 
> ...


Ok it is a HUGE difference btw a guide dog linage dog, who is bred for generations to be kind, calm and easy going, and a high octane working dog like a working line rottie, GSD, or a Malinios, BC, ACD, etc ...


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Robbi said:


> I am confident that I understand the principles of training in general but I'm still a little unsure as to my ability. *I think starting from a puppy is the best idea for me*...I just hear stories about people being unable to control their dogs and the dogs being euthanized because of it...I'd feel like such a failure and I don't want to take on the responsibility of a larger, stronger dog if I don't find myself capable.


The other parts of this paragraph may be good reasons to look for an adult large breed dog instead. As wonderful as the bond and experience of raising a dog from a pup is, with an adult dog, what you see is what you get, while with a puppy you can only predict the adult temperament. Additionally, large breed dogs tend to have an extended adolescence (reaching full development at an older age than smaller dogs) during which they can be absolute monsters...all the hyperactivity of a puppy, with the strength of a near-adult dog. 

You might look for young adult large breed dogs (3+ years old) at rescues in your region. Many dogs are surrendered for problems with the owner rather than problems with the dog, so it is quite possible to find a well-behaved rescue dog that has good health. A good general or breed-specific rescue will help you choose a dog that suits your level of experience, your personality and your lifestyle, because they are invested not in the finances but in helping their animals find "forever homes." 

Having both raised pups and adopted adults I highly recommend the latter, particularly to inexperienced or busy prospective owners. 

Just something to consider


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<Nobody is saying it is a "technique," they are saying it is "management." Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with management. But I also don't believe dogs follow cues because they respect people, either, or that there is such a thing as a 100% reliable dog. >>

Yes...some people are asking about techniques. I can't change firmly held beliefs of other people. Management is absolutely useful in certain circumstances. The simple act of walking a dog on leash is something that should lead to a certain "end game" of reliability...and whether you use a "choke" or a "pinch" to achieve that...it should have an end. I don't really know how to respond when people say they don't think dogs respect people. Maybe they have an issue with the word "respect" as a concept they don't think dogs understand...fine...you'll never get a dog to write down a definition of respect. But dogs do understand order and they do understand a hierarchy. They are social beings, they live in packs...just like any number of other species that have evolved to live in a pack environment. It works because there is order and leadership. All dogs have basic instincts, which basically stem from wolves. Humans have simply "modified" those basal instinctual behaviors through breeding to harness those instincts into particular behaviors such as herding and certain hunting behaviors, etc. They would not have been able to do this if they hadn't been able to train individual dogs to do their will and breed from those that, for lack of a better term, submitted to that training easily....and those that couldn't, weren't bred. 

So regardless of terms (respect, etc) or whether you think we chose dogs or dogs chose us...dogs today totally have the capacity to take the lead from humans...it IS the basic tenet that has made it possible for this relationship to be so successful. So, for sure, it pains me that some people don't believe dogs have this capacity and that we need to use "devices" for the most rudimentary of behaviors in simply everyday living. 

I guess what perplexes me is that everybody is so keen to mock what I said, put words in my mouth, and generally are so surprised at my views which are, in actuality so SIMPLE that it makes me wonder if they truly even understand a modicum of dog behavior in general. What is actually disheartening is the mocking of my use of the "tree" thing...basically...simply doing nothing when a dog decides to engage in a self-reinforcing and instinctual behavior. Allowing a dog to figure out something on its own may not be as QUICK as using a device such as a prong...but the lasting impact in that dog's understanding ME and his own choices has much more impact...but it requires a belief on the human's own psyche...difficult today.

I've TRAINED dogs....I used to be very successful in the competition obedience world with very unconventional dogs. I've been ranked in my current breed, as well as my original breed breed, I always got high scores, because I never understood the concept of a 170 passing score when I could do it better and get in the upper 190's. I know how to train a dog to look at my face when heeling...I know how to train them to do a perfect "front" and then "heel" afterwards with a perfectly straight sit ...they know how to retrieve a dumbbell...perfectly...present to dumbbell to me perfectly, go around and sit perfectly...they know how to scent discriminate articles and to bring those articles back to me with a perfectly straight sit...I competed with the mindset of winning...not just passing to get a title. But while I was in "that world" I saw a LOT of frustrated dogs..dogs that when WEREN'T actually doing their "trained obedience stuff" were maniacs as "just dogs"...horrible behaviors. That is when I realized that while a lot of people knew how to "train" dogs...they certainly didn't understand how to live with dogs.

So...that is why, today...my dogs are extremely well-behaved (not perfect), yet I haven't actually formally trained them how to sit. They don't need to sit in order for them to receive a treat from me...they just need to be calm and respect me enough not to grab food. They don't need to "heel" perfectly...they just need to walk calmly on a slack leash and respect the fact that slack leash is what I want..and regardless if something "really cool" to them pops up out of nowhere...they've been inoculated against that through..sorry folks...their understanding that if they "react" I'm going to do NOTHING. They know that when they are in the back yard or in a safe field and they see a rabbit or a squirrel or whatever....it is all theirs...but when they are on leash...they cannot do that because THAT is OUR deal...that is what I've conditioned them for....that IS the basic tenet of dog/human relationships. They aren't REQUIRED to sit perfectly at my side while walking when I stop...that is training...but they are required to respect even a thread around their collar because that is simply a leadership requirement. 

To go back to the quote I proffered above...of course, no dog is 100% reliable. This is why I pay attention...and why my dogs know when I remind them...but it isn't with spikes in the neck.

Lastly...going to quote this from someone ensconced in this thread: <<Yeah only if you are looking at your dog 100% of the time and always paying attention to them and nothing else, but not even I do that so it's easier to stop the reaction then to try to predict it lol. >>

Maybe it is just me, but I find this attitude a bit disturbing. The person who wrote that obviously owns Australian Cattle Dogs. What is disturbing is I don't think that person truly understands the breed of dog he/she owns. Over 40 years and the three breeds I have owned...ALL of my dogs have had interesting reactions towards ACD's. It is a wonderful breed...and I've encountered them in many different ways in 40 years and I admire them for what they are...but at the basic level, what they are is a very intense breed. They may not be a "large" breed, but they have a BIG attitude...an attitude that is felt by dog who outweigh them triply. 

First of all...I disagree that it is easier to react to a problem than to predict it. Predicting a problem DOES require, um, everybody who owns dogs the responsibility of understanding dog behavior in general, and FOR SURE understanding the breed of dog they actually own. Over the decades, I'm sure others and can relate, I've been known as "the dog lady" and people come to me asking about what "breed" of dog they should get. Most of these people want a small or medium sized dog but who "acts" like a big dog because typically they have children and want a dog that can be rough and tumble, but not big enough to be "big" but not too small and fragile. The ACD would typically be a great example, except that I've had a certain experience with this breed, both through 15 years of training public classes and also dealing with them at dog shows. Despite their size, this is NOT a breed for everybody. This is an incredibly intense breed...border collies are also very intense...but while they give an intensity that gives sheep pause...they typically don't give off a particular "vibe" to other dogs. In my experience...not so with ACD's. Except in the presence of people who truly understand this breed and give a damn, and PREDICT that their dogs are intimidating other dogs with "that stare" and actually deal with it...I can see why the person who wrote the above quote said what they did, since they also seem to clearly be against what I have written regarding leadership. 

I'll bet the person who wrote this who disregards his/her breed and laughs at the fact it is easier to react that than predict (she wrote "LOL" at the end of the post) doesn't even realize that her dog probably started whatever it was she had to react to simply by the fact that HER dog, an ACD probably incited whatever incident involved. Again...not an indictment against ACD's...but simply a cautionary tale of knowing your breed...and accepting the RESPONSIBILITY of owning such a powerful breed...even though it isn't large in physical size. If you are at a dog park, or in any other environment where there is the potential for "things to go wrong" you BET you need to have 100% attention on YOUR dog. Not only to PROTECT your own dog, but to protect other dogs from YOURS. 

You want to talk about "management?" Fine...I've had to walk my powerful breed of dog, who respects a little itty bitty slip lead through a sea of other breeds of both other huge and powerful breeds, as well as through a maze of little itty bitty dogs, and while I know my dogs won't wantonly attack or meet a challenge...I "manage" my dog by actually being aware of what is around him/her. I'll keep her close to PROTECT HER..because I certainly don't trust other people. The breed ring I hate most passing through? ACDs! Because they STARE...they challenge through their eyes...and all of their humans are totally oblivious. In my mind...because your breed, the breed you chose, you SHOULD get used to preventing, rather than reacting, because the breed I own? Also has a propensity of challenging through simply body position, eye contact...and I recognize that, and pay attention to it 100% because I want my dogs to KNOW I know and that I won't stand for it. 

Owning dogs, particularly certain breeds of dogs, is a responsibility that nobody forced you to take...it is YOUR responsibility to understand what you have and to correct a problem PRIOR to your having to "react" to it...because by then, it will be too late, and learning won't take place. Preventing is ALWAYS better than reacting. If one is too lazy to observe, learn, and predict...get goldfish.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> Yes...some people are asking about techniques.


People are asking about YOUR techniques, but they are not promoting prong collars as a training technique, just a management tool.



> I can't change firmly held beliefs of other people. Management is absolutely useful in certain circumstances. The simple act of walking a dog on leash is something that should lead to a certain "end game" of reliability...and whether you use a "choke" or a "pinch" to achieve that...it should have an end.


Why can't the end be "my dog gets walked?" If the dog gets walked and everyone is happy, and the person realizes that they are managing rather than training, who cares if they use a prong forever? I don't.



> I don't really know how to respond when people say they don't think dogs respect people. Maybe they have an issue with the word "respect" as a concept they don't think dogs understand...fine...you'll never get a dog to write down a definition of respect. But dogs do understand order and they do understand a hierarchy. They are social beings, they live in packs...just like any number of other species that have evolved to live in a pack environment. It works because there is order and leadership. All dogs have basic instincts, which basically stem from wolves.


Dogs aren't capable of our human concept of respect IMO. 

And feral dogs do not form formal packs. Sadly there are enough large populations of feral dogs throughout the world that they've been observed and studied, and they generally tend to form loose, temporary associations rather than strict or formal packs. Which makes sense since they tend to scavenge rather than hunt large prey requiring cooperation. Dog packs don't really have leaders, because they barely have members.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> I can't change firmly held beliefs of other people.


It is particularly hard to change beliefs if you don't present any practical alternative to change them to, and no, saying "create respect" a whole lot isn't giving an understandable alternative.
It would have been nice if somewhere in that wall of text was some actual training advice towards being able to achieve that "respect" that works so well for JustDogs. So far, the only actual technique I've seen described appeared to be negative reinforcement which, oddly, is one of the quadrants of operant conditioning that he also says shouldn't be necessary. 

Here's an example of what I'm curious about:


> This is why I pay attention...and why my dogs know when I remind them...but it isn't with spikes in the neck.


How do you remind them? If you're using positive reinforcement and negative punishment, what action would you take for a large lunging dog for example? What if stopping moving forward is not practical or if by staying in the location the dog is getting more reinforcement from being able to focus on whatever has got him hyped up than the negative reinforcement of the slip lead choking him? 

I still don't see anything indicating a real difference between the use of a prong vs a choke chain as far as being a physical aversive where one is somehow acceptable and the other horrible. 



Justdogs said:


> I had him on a simple slip lead for an hour, properly placed, thus, he DIDN'T choke himself. What he *KNEW was an extremely uncomfortable sensation of a properly placed simple leash *IF/WHEN he pulled, combined with the fact that when he pulled, I simply stopped going forward.


Extremely uncomfortable situation which exists until the dog stops doing something? Sounds a lot like negative reinforcement to me.

Negative reinforcement isn't always a bad thing though nor does it always involve a physically uncomfortable situation; negative reinforcement can be used in something like BAT for a dog-reactive dog by removing the reactive dog from the presence of another dog (the aversive) to reward good behavior (not reacting, looking away)

I think that what the individual dog see as aversive has to be considered. On some dogs, a physical positive punishment such as a quick leash correction is far less aversive than the negative punishment of say, removing attention from their human. A verbal "NO" is positive punishment and some dogs will shut down with a sharply worded NO but overall it isn't seen as some horrible form of punishment.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Pages ago....nobody is grasping anything....if that is all you have...good luck....I actually like trying to help people...to the original poster who wants a larger dog...good luck listening to the hugely more popular people on this list and be prepared to use a prong collar your whole life....I'm trying to tell you do don't need to...there are simply huge chunks of time when I am not on the computer so my voice will never be omnipresent as those that refuse to understand anything beyond management and devices....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL You're the one refusing to understand that no one is saying that anyone HAS to use a prong collar their whole life... just if they choose to, it's not a dirty sin. One person may choose to train their dog to an exquisitely perfect heel for walks, another may choose to manage with a head collar, prong, or whatever. It hardly matters to ME what someone else chooses to do with THEIR dog, and it shouldn't matter to anyone else what I choose to do with my dog. 

But then again my dogs are SUPPOSED to pull me, so I can't even imagine how THAT affects how much they respect me. :/


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> Pages ago....nobody is grasping anything....if that is all you have...good luck....I actually like trying to help people...to the original poster who wants a larger dog...good luck listening to the hugely more popular people on this list and be prepared to use a prong collar your whole life....I'm trying to tell you do don't need to...there are simply huge chunks of time when I am not on the computer so my voice will never be omnipresent as those that refuse to understand anything beyond management and devices....


Ever considered that no one is grasping what you are trying to say not because we are all shoving our fingers in our ears while singing the praises of a prong collar but rather because you haven't actually explained yourself other than to say your way is so much better (which you don't explain sufficiently for anyone to implement in their own training)?

I don't recall anyone saying that a prong should be or has to be used for the life of a dog. There are plenty of large dogs that I never seen any reaon nor need to use a prong for and they very much can be phased out.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<Nobody is saying it is a "technique," they are saying it is "management." Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with management. But I also don't believe dogs follow cues because they respect people, either, or that there is such a thing as a 100% reliable dog. >>
> 
> Yes...some people are asking about techniques. I can't change firmly held beliefs of other people. Management is absolutely useful in certain circumstances. The simple act of walking a dog on leash is something that should lead to a certain "end game" of reliability...and whether you use a "choke" or a "pinch" to achieve that...it should have an end. I don't really know how to respond when people say they don't think dogs respect people. Maybe they have an issue with the word "respect" as a concept they don't think dogs understand...fine...you'll never get a dog to write down a definition of respect. But dogs do understand order and they do understand a hierarchy. They are social beings, they live in packs...just like any number of other species that have evolved to live in a pack environment. It works because there is order and leadership. All dogs have basic instincts, which basically stem from wolves. Humans have simply "modified" those basal instinctual behaviors through breeding to harness those instincts into particular behaviors such as herding and certain hunting behaviors, etc. They would not have been able to do this if they hadn't been able to train individual dogs to do their will and breed from those that, for lack of a better term, submitted to that training easily....and those that couldn't, weren't bred.
> 
> ...


LOL I assume you are talking about me? 

My ACDs don't react to other dogs, more do they make other dogs react to them. In play, maybe they might exhibit some herding behavior, but you make it sound like that are a loony down he street looking for a fight, which is not the case. All of my ACDs live with other dogs, have been to the dog park, etc. 

My reference is when something like a PREY animal or a cow, goat, deer, etc comes bounding out of the brush while I am on a jog or something, I don't care how trained a dog that has herding/prey drive is, there is that moment where they are all like "OMG [insert animal name here]!!!!!!!" 

And FWIW, training breeds like ACDs is very different then living with them, have you lived with one? Have you raised one from a puppy? You seem to have a wealth of experience, so I was curious.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Justdogs said:


> I don't really know how to respond when people say they don't think dogs respect people.


 Ok, I'll bite. Please enlighten all of us with your definition of respect (when it comes to dogs) and (something I'm sure we're all incredibly interested in finding out) tell us how YOU earn your dog's respect. 

As for the rest of the post....not even going to bother, just please enlighten us on your methods of gaining respect.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Shell said:


> I still don't see anything indicating a real difference between the use of a prong vs a choke chain as far as being a physical aversive where one is somehow acceptable and the other horrible.
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely uncomfortable situation which exists until the dog stops doing something? Sounds a lot like negative reinforcement to me.


This is what puzzles me too. I also questioned it pages ago and received no real response from the poster, in regard. Instead, I was the one accused of lacking an understanding of OC shortly thereafter. Go figure.

People who sing the praises of relationships, lifestyle, the need to prevent rather than react and such are usually flat collar positive-only (or R+ / P-) type trainers. So ... the slip collar use just ... doesn't fit in.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Ok, I'll bite. Please enlighten all of us with your definition of respect (when it comes to dogs) and (something I'm sure we're all incredibly interested in finding out) tell us how YOU earn your dog's respect.
> 
> As for the rest of the post....not even going to bother, just *please enlighten us on your methods of gaining respect*.


At this point I'd settle for enlightening us on their methods of doing ANYTHING.

I'm still waiting to hear about why choke chains are safer/less harmful than prongs.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> At this point I'd settle for enlightening us on their methods of doing ANYTHING.
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear about why choke chains are safer/less harmful than prongs.


Same here, this thread has gone on for quite a while, with a lot of this back and forth and no enlightening on the part of Justdogs. Not sure why we are bothering to try, I dunno about the rest of you, but I don't see it happening, we just keep getting more of the same.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes I would like to see their response to my inquiries ... I will quote my original message again 



> LOL I assume you are talking about me?
> 
> My ACDs don't react to other dogs, more do they make other dogs react to them. In play, maybe they might exhibit some herding behavior, but you make it sound like that are a loony down he street looking for a fight, which is not the case. All of my ACDs live with other dogs, have been to the dog park, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Pretty sure I HAVE said what I do....but everybody has picked at and assumed, and otherwise ignored what I DO do and bastardized it to I guess argue with me? I actually spend a great deal of time HAVING to go back and back and back...reading the core issue....reading the original poster...because it is very easy to go off on tangents. If your dog is bossing you around in everyday life...if your dog gets away with "little" crap just living with him...I guess then YES...your dog will pull you on your face...even years after owning this same dog. My dogs don't steal food, my dogs stop doing something I don't want them to do...and yes...sometimes I get lazy and choose to shoo them outside if I need to do something and they suddenly have an abundance of energy...but when it is pouring rain outside and I can't shoo them outside....they mostly listen when I tell them quiet time...but with so many dogs...I will sometimes bring out the dreaded squirt bottle. Hardly a physical pain giver. My dogs hate having their nails done....but a leash on them and they are compliant. I do live in a rural environment...Just putting a leash on my dogs to get to the car can be hazardous because at any point there is SOME sort of wild this or that jumping out...yep, they react...but the second they feel pressure on the wimpy 1/2 cotton slip...they know because SIMPLY HOW I LIVE WITH THEM, they cannot ignore the fact they aren't allowed to do what they want and bolt...thus...with a hugely humane, soft fabric on their neck...I have NEVER even THOUGHT they would pull me on my face...and my dogs are at the least 70 lbs individually....and with all four...around almost 300 lbs...and I regularly have all four on lead at one time. I haven't "trained" them per se on leash...and maybe that is why all of you seem to be salivating for "training tips." You've already dismissed the fact that I HAVE employed the "tree" method when they were younger...and ALLOWED them to be wild jerks (and I anticipated it, thus I didn't get pulled on my face) and they came to the realization they can be idiots when they spot a squirrel or a rabbit or a dog or any other thing and I'm not going to freak out and yell at them or correct them (they correct themselves). I basically don't have to do ANYTHING except stand there...yes...with large powerful dogs. The figure it out. They learn for themselves who is in charge without me EVER having to have a "technique" or "word" or any of the other things all of you seem to clamor for. 

I was told all of you understand operant conditioning...so....surprised you actually don't really understand it..OR leadership, or when I used the word "respect" as if I beat the human form of word respect into my dogs...I let my DOGS figure it out. It is sort of a revelation for me, too...because I couldn't understand why nobody was "getting" it, and I really did try to think back to "words" or "techniques" I may have used with my dogs...and I realized I didn't have those answers because it didn't exist. I have four powerful dogs eating side by side, inches apart from each other, every single day. I feed really cool food to them every meal...they never get the same meal twice...so sometimes one or two of them get more excited and "crowd" me (pressing on my legs, etc while I am preparing the food). A flick of my knee to the dog who encroaches is enough...no words...no yelling, no anger...it is a reminder. They ALL know some really cool food is coming...they all eat inches apart...there are no disputes. 

So...hmmm...yep...I can throw a soft cotton lead around my dog's head and they don't pull...at the age they are now....they don't pull...when they were younger and they did their little pulling...I merely stopped. Never said a word. It was simply a progression of their understanding that whoever had control of the lead had control over progression of movement. I'm truly dismayed, even though I've tried to tell that story in the past...that everybody on this forum THINKS it has to be more complicated...that there HAS to be some sort of "technical" aspect..that there has to be a word, a "specific correction." Do you get it now? It connects to the fact I have 4 rather large and powerful breeds who can eat peacefully side by side...it has to do with my everyday living with them....it IS about the relationship. It has NOTHING to do with "formal" training. That is why I can use a soft cotton, thick "throw on" and the prong collar I bought 30 years ago that I keep on the "leash tree" continues to sit there unused as a reminder to me of my less enlightened years.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I know that a lot of people have dogs they totally click with and everybody just lives together super-duper-ly and everyone's happy and they can't necessarily explain how/what they do. So that's cool. 

It's too bad you can't explain how to get this "respect" or how you exercise leadership or SIMPLY HOW YOU LIVE WITH THEM, how to achieve that relationship, how they learn "you're in charge", because that would be very useful for a lot of people. Lots of people who HAVE just stood there while their dog goes bonkers, but the dog continues to go bonkers every time something happens/they see a critter/etc. Lots of people whose dogs are generally well-behaved but do steal food (I'm looking at my dogs ). Lots of people who have great dogs who can't eat peacefully side-by-side with other dogs. 

It's all very great that you and your dogs have this zen thing going. But without specific advice about how other people can achieve that, well. . .cool story? 

I'm not sure what operant conditioning has to do with that kind of zen-type thing. Operant conditioning is punishment/reinforcement, no relationship necessary (which is why it works on wild animals, etc.).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You DO have a technique, even if you don't call it that or consciously and intentionally use it. As far as I can figure it's closest to what most people call "be a tree" although I'm not wading through this mess to find out where people apparently dismissed that.

If you're going to criticize people for not understanding how to train dogs and brag about how well behaved your dogs, then I think there's a certain onus to effectively communicate/ articulate/describe how to achieve that behavior beyond talking about respect and throwing the term operant conditioning out there over and over. Otherwise, as willowy said, it's just a cool story.

IMO the eating side by side is mostly luck. Someday you might have a resource guarder and you might realize that. I still don't think anything has anything to do with respect.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

sassafras said:


> If you're going to criticize people for not understanding how to train dogs and brag about how well behaved your dogs, then* I think there's a certain onus to effectively communicate/ articulate/describe how to achieve that* behavior beyond talking about respect and throwing the term operant conditioning out there over and over. Otherwise, as willowy said, it's just a cool story.


 Completely agree here. Though I have a feeling that it has something to do with not being a tree, but waiting until the dog is calm and submissive. That is the vibe I'm getting anyway. Still haven't gotten a clear answer. I mean I haven't come across anything in life that I truly and deeply understood like it seems Justdogs understands training, that I couldn't explain....but I'm starting to get convinced that I'm particularly stupid, so anything I would explain would never be that complicated.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Completely agree here. Though I have a feeling that it has something to do with not being a tree, but waiting until the dog is calm and submissive. That is the vibe I'm getting anyway. Still haven't gotten a clear answer. I mean I haven't come across anything in life that I truly and deeply understood like it seems Justdogs understands training, that I couldn't explain....but I'm starting to get convinced that I'm particularly stupid, so anything I would explain would never be that complicated.


No justdogs says a lot without saying a lot :/ they didn't even answer my question about how they think they know so much about ACDs, I never did get a straight answer lol.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Willowy said:


> It's too bad you can't explain how to get this "respect" or how you exercise leadership or SIMPLY HOW YOU LIVE WITH THEM, how to achieve that relationship, how they learn "you're in charge", because that would be very useful for a lot of people.


I think Justdogs DID explain. Well, somewhat at least. Squirt bottles, knee flicks, and collar (self) corrections. 

Whether that's useful for a lot of people is a matter of opinion I suppose. Myself I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping for something more special, more uncommon ... perhaps along the lines of magical and mystical. Or better yet - just a simple 'force-free' approach completely void of intimidation and physicality. But nope.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, lots of people use squirt bottles, "knee flicks", collar corrections---and worse---and still have misbehaving dogs. So clearly there is _something_ else involved. I suppose it's just an intuitive thing that develops once you've owned a lot of dogs, but that doesn't really help those of us who aren't old enough to have had many dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> I think Justdogs DID explain. Well, somewhat at least. Squirt bottles, knee flicks, and collar (self) corrections.
> 
> Whether that's useful for a lot of people is a matter of opinion I suppose. Myself I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping for something more special, more uncommon ... perhaps along the lines of magical and mystical. Or better yet - just a simple 'force-free' approach completely void of intimidation and physicality. But nope.


Aren't squirt bottles and knee flicks considered positive punishment and collar (self) corrections e.g. the pain goes away when the dog behaves considered negative reinforcement? Which are the two quadrants that Justdogs said should never be needed?

Some dogs think a squirt bottle great fun, other dogs are terrified of it and using it for corrections on them would be just cruel. Since I want my dogs to enjoy water or at least be relaxed enough to bathe them, I'm not going to associate water with a correction. But to each their own, I'm simply pointing out that even things with no real physical pain attached can have negative consequences when used as corrections. 

Dog hates to get his nails done? Put a leash on him and he magically becomes compliant. What is it about that leash? Enough collar corrections in the past that the dog shuts down? My dog hated getting his nails done too when I first got him. I put peanut butter on a serving spoon and let him lick that while I introduced the dremel and then moved on to intermittent rewards of kibble while using the dremel and now he stands patiently, sans collar or leash or treats, for nail trims. Nothing magic, a training technique that most anyone can replicate with little chance of negative consequences. 

And while I know that some dogs are totally fine eating near each other, I hate to think how a resource guarder would react to getting a knee flick while surrounded by other dogs in the presence of food. Bringing an adult dog into a new home around other dogs, I wouldn't be putting my faith in a a zen-like atmosphere while dishing up and serving high value foods. Breaking up a 2 dog fight alone is hard enough, can't imagine trying to break up a 4 large dog fight alone.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<Aren't squirt bottles and knee flicks considered positive punishment and collar (self) corrections e.g. the pain goes away when the dog behaves considered negative reinforcement? Which are the two quadrants that Justdogs said should never be needed?>>

When did I say they were never needed? I make a distinction between "training" a dog for something in particular...such as formal type behaviors...retrieve over a high jump, scent discrimination..perfect healing...etc etc...yep...positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Everyday living at home...simply basic manners? And that includes simple leash manners...without a particular position or needing to sit....but just...um, don't pull me on my face...you betcha a squirt bottle or a quick knee flick is positive punishment because in those situations...the misbehavior itself is positive to the DOG. 

I know there are people out there that spend a lot of time training a dog to sit across the room while food is being prepared...require the dog to sit while all that is happening. The owner puts the bowl dog, and the dog is still required to sit...they even train that the dog can't go to the food until the okay word is given...if I were to "train" that scenario...I would train with positive reinforcement and negative punishment (again, that merely means the dog not getting the reward). But that specific "training" regime requires vigilance with most dogs...constant "training." It is fine if people do that. I don't require it...they can surround me in anticipation if they want to...but they AREN'T allowed to press against me while I do it...a quick knee flick without a word being spoken doesn't send them into a puddle of mush...it merely gets them off my leg and reminds them of manners. I have to do that maybe a few times a YEAR as a reminder...and since the get a different meal each night with a myriad of really cool smells...they do tend to get excited at meal time.

<<And while I know that some dogs are totally fine eating near each other, I hate to think how a resource guarder would react to getting a knee flick while surrounded by other dogs in the presence of food. Bringing an adult dog into a new home around other dogs, I wouldn't be putting my faith in a a zen-like atmosphere while dishing up and serving high value foods. Breaking up a 2 dog fight alone is hard enough, can't imagine trying to break up a 4 large dog fight alone. >>

Well...I don't HAVE any "resource guarders" because I don't ALLOW "resource guarders" to live in my house. I am the giver of resources...I giveth and I taketh away. At will. Maybe the fact that you DON'T put faith into who you are to your dogs is why you don't believe it can be done, or maybe the fact you put labels on dogs such as "resource guarder" and can't get past the label. All dogs will tend to protect what they perceive as "theirs." Every so often, while my dogs eat inches from each other (I'll try to post a picture soon)...if one dog finishes a lot sooner and gets a little too "interested" in a bowl where another dog is still eating...the dog that is still eating WILL growl...I expect the offender (the one who is done eating) to respect that growl, and 99% of the time, they do. IF that dog has a brain fart and doesn't back off....I don't correct the growling dog...I correct the one who has apparently forgotten his/her manners. And the growling dog KNOWS I will handle it, thus, they don't HAVE to handle it. THAT only happens maybe once a year or more....can't even remember the last time when I needed to back up a righteously growling dog. 

It is simply the lifestyle I choose...I grew up in a large family with everybody eating together. I simply expect the same from my dogs. I have no time or patience to feed my dogs in different rooms or in crates...they eat together.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Justdogs said:


> Well...I don't HAVE any "resource guarders" because I don't ALLOW "resource guarders" to live in my house. I am the giver of resources...I giveth and I taketh away. At will. Maybe the fact that you DON'T put faith into who you are to your dogs is why you don't believe it can be done, or maybe the fact you put labels on dogs such as "resource guarder" and can't get past the label.


 Well, the label is useful to describe the behavior, and if you don't ALLOW a resource guarder to live in your house I'm guessing you mustn't have dealt with a dog that came to you with a history of that problem. I got bit in the leg by a RG'r (no broken skin, just some major bruising, it was a warning thankfully) because I moved in too quickly on what he felt he needed to guard from me (a ball that had gotten stuck under a piece of furniture, I stepped forward to nudge it out with my toe and he clamped on....). If I had given him a knee bump at that time to "put faith into who I am with my dogs" (being the giver of resources in your opinion), I probably (hmm....knowing that dog, not much probably about it) would have ended up in the hospital, big dog, big teeth, came to us with a ton of problems. Sure, I could nudge him out of the way gently with my knee if I was walking past and he was a bit in my way, we could even wrestle a tiny bit in play, but during a high stress situation like guarding something he found valuable (I don't think he had toys before), anything physical, or even angry verbal was prone to cause a significant reaction. I allowed him to live in our home, that isn't to say it wasn't dealt with (and very successfully by the way, his only guarding type issue now from what I understand from his current owner is being a bit territorial...something that is being worked on further with a behaviorist). It was dealt with, with no angry voices, no physical touching (except a little bit of blocking...at a distance, not him bumping into me). We used pretty much just R+ and R- with him. After a time I could take his food bowl if I needed, it would always have an extra tasty tidbit in there when he got it back....though I always "asked" first by getting him to sit before I took it. If he was mugging too hard for a treat or toy, he wouldn't get it until he chilled. I first taught him that it was ok to leave a toy and let me touch it, because then he'd get to chase it! Fun things happen when I get to touch 'his' toys. After a couple of months of pretty intensive work on it, the situation with the ball was pretty much recreated....he easily let me in to get it (though the RG wasn't the only problem...he had issues trusting humans too, working on the trust I believe helped as well). I didn't ever teach him that the things weren't "his" but I taught him that he HAD to share them, and by sharing them he didn't lose anything, chances are he got more of something, or fun stuff happened (eventually, even just a "good boy, all done" and some pets was enough). 

Either way, not everyone that has a resource guarder is the one who created it, and if they are it might have been an oversight in training in puppyhood (something that can happen to anyone) that didn't seem to be an issue at the time and was finally acknowledged as a true problem and not a freak incident. The term Resource Guarding is a very useful one to explain to others who know and understand the set of behaviors, what the problem is (and it doesn't just apply to food). Its like a doctor describing a problem as 'dry gangerene' rather than saying 'necrotization of tissues and liberation of hemoglobin from hemolysed red blood cells due to a lack of blood supply to the tissues potentially caused by atherosclerotic changes'. The short hand version works perfectly well for those who understand it. Resource guarder isn't just a 'label' (though some do use it that way), it is also a very useful short explanation for a group of behaviors. 



> I correct the one who has apparently forgotten his/her manners


Although I do agree that correcting the one who forgot their manners is the absolute appropriate move (rather than the one who growled), if your dogs are so well behaved and listen because they respect you so much, why is a correction even necessary, why not just recall that dog to you, or even just tell them to leave it? That is unless you consider 'leave it' as a correction....as in just correcting what they are doing by getting them to execute a different behavior, not 'issuing a correction, whether verbal or physical (I personally don't consider that as a correction...although the word correction can be applied).


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> Well...I don't HAVE any "resource guarders" because I don't ALLOW "resource guarders" to live in my house.


So for those of us that foster or acquire adult dogs that come with existing problems such as resource guarding (and yes, this is a commonly accepted term for a group of behaviors not something I made up), should we just kick them out the door because RG isn't allowed? No training, no management just hey dog, since you don't magically know exactly what you should do, you're gone?

Not all dogs growl a warning. Not all dogs even show obvious interest in the other dog's food before they strike. Some will go from calm and relaxed around food next to another dog to a bite in far less time than 99% of people can react. 

I want to eat in peace. I let my dogs eat in peace. It takes very little time to give them food separately and it means neither feels rushed. If a dog is growling to tell the offender to back off, then the growler is feeling stressed or cornered at least a little bit. I see no reason to have that scenario.



Justdogs said:


> <<Aren't squirt bottles and knee flicks considered positive punishment and collar (self) corrections e.g. the pain goes away when the dog behaves considered negative reinforcement? Which are the two quadrants that Justdogs said should never be needed?>>
> 
> When did I say they were never needed? I make a distinction between "training" a dog for something in particular...such as formal type behaviors...retrieve over a high jump, scent discrimination..perfect healing...etc etc...yep...positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Everyday living at home...simply basic manners? And that includes simple leash manners...without a particular position or needing to sit....but just...um, don't pull me on my face...you betcha a squirt bottle or a quick knee flick is positive punishment because in those situations...the misbehavior itself is positive to the DOG.


Well, I read this as saying not needed...



Justdogs said:


> If, as you say, people on this forum truly understand operant conditioning, then people who purport to have "trained" dogs but still use a prong collar are using the two of the quadrants of operant conditioning that SHOLDN'T be necessary...negative reinforcement and positive punishment.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

So, once again still waiting to hear about how choke chains are generally safer than prongs for the general public to use.

Also, responding on how to deal with a common problem (like resource guarding) with "Well just don't HAVE a dog that does that, jeeze." isn't at all helpful for anyone. Dog pulls on leash? Don't allow leash pullers in your house. Dog jumps when greeting guests? Don't have a jumper. That's all well and good in a perfect world, but that just isn't reality for MOST people. Problems happen, undesired behaviours arise, or maybe the dog comes with baggage by the time it gets to you. Maybe you didn't cause the problems yourself, maybe you made some mistakes. Either way, people need to know how to deal with the problem that already exists. "Don't allow that problem" becomes kind of a moot point.

At this point the gist I've gotten is that Justdogs uses positive reinforcement for teaching things they deem specific behaviours (like sit or stay), and positive punishment to teach what most of us would refer to as basic manners/life skills. (don't bother me when I'm preparing dinner, stand still when I clip your nails, etc) If I'm wrong, please do clarify, but that's what I've been able to decipher from reading their posts.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I DON'T ALLOW muggers and rapists and murderers in my vicinity. Nope, simply not allowed. I guess I'll go for a walk alone at midnight downtown in a city in a bad neighborhood and I'll be perfectly safe because I just don't allow that kind of thing around me. Okey dokey.

Seriously. I'm not sure how some people handle stuff they DON'T ALLOW. I guess you could just drop the dog at the nearest shelter or vet to be killed if they do it. Or. . .I don't know what else. I've known people who cover the entire range of handling things---from positive reinforcement to beatings---and sometimes whatever they do to NOT ALLOW something just plain doesn't work at all. If you're not skillful in your use of any tactic, it's just not going to help matters.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I wonder what just dogs would do if one of their dogs started RG'ing something (which can happen, we know it can) would that dog be "out the door?"


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I wonder what just dogs would do if one of their dogs started RG'ing something (which can happen, we know it can) would that dog be "out the door?"


That's sort of the impression I got too :/ Like they don't allow dogs with issues to live with them. I feel like we're talking to Cesar Milan lol


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Sarah~ said:


> That's sort of the impression I got too :/ Like they don't allow dogs with issues to live with them. I feel like we're talking to Cesar Milan lol


I caught a whiff of that earlier too, and it is definitely getting stronger. I'm waiting to hear back to be told that Diesel (the RG'er I mentioned in my post) should have been "taught his place" or something, or that I should have put a muzzle on him so he couldn't redirect or who knows what....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

That's how Yumi and Josefina's last fight happened I think (I wasn't here, just going on things I was told by my now as dog savvy parents) I think it started because Yumi was guarding the house. Solution? Remove the house and any other things they could guard. The only things out there are toys, and since Josefina doesn't RG and Yumi Doesn't care about toys plus they have been taught that the toys only have REAL value when I am holding them


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> the toys only have REAL value when I am holding them


 Caeda seems to quite often feel this way....which leads to an annoying habit (though certainly not one I would discourage considering possible alternatives), the habit of bringing me something and wanting me to hold it while she chews lol. She always gives me an end that is covered in dog slobber, so she can chew the "fresh" end. Punk lol.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

So many words, so little information.

Sometimes people are just lucky enough not to ever have a dog with RG tendencies, sometimes it's something people have to experience to believe that it's not something that someone did wrong. I've had dogs who RG and dogs who don't, some just come that way (sometimes literally if you get them as an older puppy or adult). I think people are the same way about DR, DA, and HA, as if genetics weren't a thing. 

Not that I let it continue without addressing it, but I don't take any credit for the dogs who aren't RGers nor blame myself for the ones who are any more than I take credit for Maisy being an awesome lead dog or Squash having awesome bounce-back.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Sometimes people are just lucky enough not to ever have a dog with RG tendencies, sometimes it's something people have to experience to believe that it's not something that someone did wrong. I've had dogs who RG and dogs who don't, some just come that way (sometimes literally if you get them as an older puppy or adult). I think people are the same way about DR, DA, and HA, as if genetics weren't a thing.


 You're right there sassafras....although I do think, even with a dog who may be genetically more prone to it, there are steps that can be taken early in puppyhood (and later in life if at all possible) to at least minimize it.....or actually, more precisely, there can be steps taken to prevent it from being increased or encouraged. I was warned by a Schutzhund judge, who took some time to do some fun protection training/play with Caeda, that the Swissy (actually the entire Sennenhund group) can be prone to get a little "guardy" of their homes/territory, especially as they get older, and that it wouldn't hurt to watch for signs of it and work on it to prevent it from becoming a habitual behavior. Something that I'm glad I was told. Her reaction to DH when she was younger and he came home late one night from work (after I was in bed) lends creedence to the advice, as well as her excitement when she hears someone outside of the house. If I start seeing anxiety (rather than just excitement and curiosity) it is something I'll definitely be working on very pointedly (though admittedly, I should be working on the barking a bit, despite the fact that I do consider it a useful thing in terms of scaring off a potential home invader/theif). Certain breeds are definitely predisposed, and some dogs are just "that way", although just dealing with it/managing it shouldn't (IMO) be the automatic response...some work and training is necessary before just throwing hands up and saying "I have a RG'er" (not to imply that you or anyone else here does that...).


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have never had an RG'er, but if I did I would do my best to work through it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Greater Swiss said:


> I caught a whiff of that earlier too, and it is definitely getting stronger. I'm waiting to hear back to be told that Diesel (the RG'er I mentioned in my post) should have been "taught his place" or something, or that I should have put a muzzle on him so he couldn't redirect or who knows what....


Well, here's the anecdote which may or may not have been actual advice from another thread where someone's two dogs had a fight which _appears_ to have been a space/resource guarding type issue (there I go using that bad word "RG") 



Justdogs said:


> .
> Personally, I don't have the temperament to play musical crates with dogs. I don't want to live that way, and I'm sure my dogs don't want to live that way. For many, many years, I felt rather great about the fact that I had bitches living together (boys came later) and they never fought. Until...two particular bitches. I bred both, I whelped both...I raised both. They were half-sisters and lived peacefully together for 2 years. The older sister was 5...the younger, 2. And on one occasion, going outside, it seemed to me that one bumped the other while going out the door and all heck broke loose. I am by myself...and admittedly I freaked because I was unprepared...but despite my angst...I got them separated and we went BACK inside the house and once inside, they went at it again...by now..my adrenalin was flowing and I got each of them by their neck scruffs (they each weighed 70 lbs) and* I threw them both down, made them face each other and luckily they at least remembered ME and I held their necks in a way the couldn't easily get up and I made them face each other for about 20 minutes..*..time I needed to compose myself and for them to relax. When I finally released the pressure on their necks, they both also more subdued, and I told them to "go lay down" and they both did. Immediately...they wanted to "look" or "stare" at each other...and I immediately corrected THAT. I did NOT separate them. I wanted them to KNOW right from the get-go that whatever crap they thought they had with each other paled in comparison to what I wanted.


I am only bringing it into this thread because it directly relates back to the resource guarding and "allowed" to be this or that discussion. 

I linked some discussions/training advice from Dr. Yin, Patricia McConnell and such for the OP of that thread


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

They say a lot but they don't say a lot :/


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have never had an RG'er, but if I did I would do my best to work through it.


And it's really not THAT hard to work through it and manage. But just "not tolerating it" isn't really how that happens.

ETA: And yea, holding down two 70# dogs, one in each hand when they were in full fighting mode? That seems kinda sketchy to me to be honest.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

sassafras said:


> And it's really not THAT hard to work through it and manage. But just "not tolerating it" isn't really how that happens.
> 
> ETA: And yea, holding down two 70# dogs, one in each hand when they were in full fighting mode? That seems kinda sketchy to me to be honest.


Lol, yeah, Eko was a resource guarder from very early on, like 4 months old, and I really screwed up the first time I tried to correct it using CM's methods... Tried it again by putting cheese in his bowl every once in a while and he has not growled when people walk up to his food for at least a year.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sassafras said:


> ETA: And yea, holding down two 70# dogs, one in each hand when they were in full fighting mode? That seems kinda sketchy to me to be honest.


This. Once I found a big malamute mix running loose (with a chewed-through tieout rope on its collar) when I was out walking my own malamute mix. I caught the loose dog and was walking them both back in the direction of my house, one on either side of me, when they decided they didn't like each other very much and started growling and lunging. I yelled at them and held them at arm's length as best I could, and they calmed down because it was just noisy posturing. If those 90lb dogs had really wanted to fight, I could have done next to nothing about it. I call bull on anyone holding down two dogs who actually mean business.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I guess we know what camp I am in.....
.









there is boiled liver in the orange bag.....

the only collars I use and have used them for over 40 years now.... are "choke" collars.....I have a couple of flat buckle collars around here. But it would take me some time to find it..... Actually I do not think any of the three dogs I have now have ever had a buckle collar around their neck. 

And people talk about resource guarding like it is a bad thing...... A little RG can be good. You can use it. channel it into some desirable behaviors....


As for the feeding all the dogs together thing.........

Just because a person grew up in a big family and everyone ate together.... Does NOT mean it is a good idea for dogs...

I CAN feed my dogs right next to each other... IF I want to stand there. If I walk out of the room. my authority walks out with me. 


The thing is.... Why would I want to? at least on a regular basis....

Dogs do not share... Feeding on a "kill" is a very competitive event. 
Why do I want to stress my dogs every day at feeding time....

Feeding them together is just adding stress to the environment.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have more to add....


I use "choke" collars because they work for me... I have used them so long and my dogs are so accustomed to them that they are daily use collars. Since I do not like to to leave collars on my dogs... They become a great option for me... Others will feel different. 

But as a trainer......
I will use:
choke
martindale
prong 
and e collars.
Depending on the dog and the situation.....
The more full a trainers toolbox is, the more options they have... And the more tools a trainer has, the more likely they are going to think out of the box.. or toolbox if you will...... 

Training is about getting a dog to do what you want.... Good training is about getting a dog to do what you want without causing significant pain, undue stress, or causing or creating fear....


The biggest "trick" to training is to set the dog up for success. A great many people, do not know this or forget it. You are the trainer. You control the setting in which you are going to train. You control the outside distractions as well. 

The key is putting the dog in a situation in which he can think and have time to make good decisions. If you have set up the training properly the good decisions will become obvious to the dog quickly. 


I do have to say...... Taking a shelter dog with a terrible history of not walking on lead will, to a place where there is significant outside stimulous is foolish to say the least. 

Talk about setting a dog up to fail...... Text book....


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I make my dogs sign a contract stating how they will act and the punishment that will follow if they do not abide by the contract. Of course they do not sign it until their lawyer looks over the contract. 

On the serious side. JB is right on about feeding together. Yes my dogs will eat together but I would not want to do that way all the time for the reasons JB stated.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I do have to say...... Taking a shelter dog with a terrible history of not walking on lead will, to a place where there is significant outside stimulous is foolish to say the least.
> 
> Talk about setting a dog up to fail...... Text book....


And I have to say not being able to recognize that not everybody has a back yard with a privacy fence or lives on a farm is short-sighted and self-centered to say the least. Dog's got to go to the bathroom. Do YOU have an idea for accomplishing that in an urban area without outside stimulus? 

Actually, take it one further: How much control do you have other wildlife, other people, and weather? Or do you just... not take the dog out to pee? 

Shit happens, and as much as we might like to, you don't control the environment to that degree. NO ONE does. It might feel good to pretend, but it really is just a nice make-believe fantasy. Shit happens. To everyone. Beyond their control. Even when training dogs. Even when training dogs from infancy.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Depending on the dog and the situation.....
> The more full a trainers toolbox is, the more options they have... And the more tools a trainer has, the more likely they are going to think out of the box.. or toolbox if you will......
> 
> Training is about getting a dog to do what you want.... Good training is about getting a dog to do what you want without causing significant pain, undue stress, or causing or creating fear....
> ...


Very much agree, especially regarding the 'toolbox'. Not considering a tool for the toolbox is keeping the mind closed to options....I'll keep in my toolbox (in my mental toolbox at least) techniques that I am almost positive I'll NEVER use, I know of CM's methods, I know farmer training style methods, I will probably never use them, but if the dog standing in front of me will respond to that (and other techniques have failed), and the context is right....I do have that tool there. 

Setting up the dog for success I agree is important, but there isn't just skill in that (though there is a lot of skill involved!). Sometimes there is a fair bit of luck too, there can be so many surprises, not everyone has the luxury of living in a house (rather than an apartment) in the countryside, with a fenced yard where a bunch of the distractions can be controlled well (and even then...squirrels and cats jump fences). Doing everything we can to control the setting is important, just very difficult sometimes (and sometimes almost impossible!). In those cases its a matter of trying to figure out the best way to work with what we've got.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

CptJack said:


> And I have to say not being able to recognize that not everybody has a back yard with a privacy fence or lives on a farm is short-sighted and self-centered to say the least. Dog's got to go to the bathroom. Do YOU have an idea for accomplishing that in an urban area without outside stimulus?
> 
> Actually, take it one further: How much control do you have other wildlife, other people, and weather? Or do you just... not take the dog out to pee?
> 
> Shit happens, and as much as we might like to, you don't control the environment to that degree. NO ONE does. It might feel good to pretend, but it really is just a nice make-believe fantasy. Shit happens. To everyone. Beyond their control. Even when training dogs. Even when training dogs from infancy.


I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Johnny's comment there was directed at JustDogs' earlier comments about taking a new dog out on a slip lead and allowing it to throw itself against it and choke itself for an hour, rather than at people like you, CptJack.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> And I have to say not being able to recognize that not everybody has a back yard with a privacy fence or lives on a farm is short-sighted and self-centered to say the least. Dog's got to go to the bathroom. Do YOU have an idea for accomplishing that in an urban area without outside stimulus?
> 
> Actually, take it one further: How much control do you have other wildlife, other people, and weather? Or do you just... not take the dog out to pee?
> 
> Shit happens, and as much as we might like to, you don't control the environment to that degree. NO ONE does. It might feel good to pretend, but it really is just a nice make-believe fantasy. Shit happens. To everyone. Beyond their control. Even when training dogs. Even when training dogs from infancy.


Well we do what we can do to the best that we can.... 

But regardless of one's living situation, it is possible to find a quiet place to work and train a dog... Even in a busy urban setting. 

The statement was specifically targeted to purposely taking such a do to an area known have lots of wildlife to work on a leash issue...
That is foolish and setting the dog up for failure... Someone can paint any picture they want, over explain, and verbal dance with the subject all they choose... It is still a very bad idea....


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> I am the giver of resources...I giveth and I taketh away. At will.


 Maybe it's just the choice of words, but this made me lol.

sounds quite ... divine ???


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Training is about getting a dog to do what you want.... Good training is about getting a dog to do what you want without causing significant pain, undue stress, or causing or creating fear....
> 
> 
> The biggest "trick" to training is to set the dog up for success. A great many people, do not know this or forget it. You are the trainer. You control the setting in which you are going to train. You control the outside distractions as well.
> ...


Oh god, yes, all of it. Obviously everyone does the best they can and there's nothing wrong with a sprinkling of management IMO. But generally I think a lot of people expect too much, too soon from a lot of dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Well we do what we can do to the best that we can....
> 
> But regardless of one's living situation, it is possible to find a quiet place to work and train a dog... Even in a busy urban setting.
> 
> ...




Oh. Yeah, absolutely agreed on *that*. You find a place and you work quietly as you can - and I'm fortunate enough to be able to have more space than people like Shell. Sorry, this thread has been frazzling me more than it probably should.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Lol I myself would rather have RG then some of the other problems I have had (SSA/DA/reactivity/fear issues ETC...) RG is one of the easier problems IMO to manage because in many cases it's the dog saying "I'm afraid you are going to take my stuff" and it's very easy to say "ok, I don't want your stuff." It doesn't take most dogs long to learn that. 

They don't even guard toys, since like I said, they only have value when I am using them, but the real important toys ( the chuck it and the frisbees ) are out away when I am done with them. I can even play with multiple dogs at one time and they don't RG with each other, if they do the game ends, simple as that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> And I have to say not being able to recognize that not everybody has a back yard with a privacy fence or lives on a farm is short-sighted and self-centered to say the least. Dog's got to go to the bathroom. Do YOU have an idea for accomplishing that in an urban area without outside stimulus?
> 
> Actually, take it one further: How much control do you have other wildlife, other people, and weather? Or do you just... not take the dog out to pee?
> 
> Shit happens, and as much as we might like to, you don't control the environment to that degree. NO ONE does. It might feel good to pretend, but it really is just a nice make-believe fantasy. Shit happens. To everyone. Beyond their control. Even when training dogs. Even when training dogs from infancy.


Buddy hates leashes, but I also have a lot of wild life out here, if something appeared I would just stop, Buddy was really sensitive at hitting the end of the leash and he would just come back to me, asking what to do next, so I (I used clicker training with him) would click and treat. After a while every time something popped out, a rabbit or whatever, he would come running back to me. 

I agree with Johnny Bandit, taking an under socialized or otherwise fearful dog out to a lot of stimulus IS detrimental to their log reds and can hinder it if it's forced before they are ready. And I am not talking about simple trips to the bathroom out in front of your house or apartment.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Oh. Yeah, absolutely agreed on *that*. You find a place and you work quietly as you can - and I'm fortunate enough to be able to have more space than people like Shell. Sorry, this thread has been frazzling me more than it probably should.


I'm a big advocate of setting a dog up for success when training and I like the "two week shutdown" basics for new dogs. 

But in the end, everything is a trade-off as far as the outside environment. I mean, I have 4 properties that adjoin my chain link fenced back yard. 2 have large bully breed dogs (one very sweet, one that will bark and run the fence). Another has a basketball court and on nice days may have a half dozen kids running around. Sometimes the neighbor's cat is in my driveway or on my porch. There are always squirrels and birds and such. 

So I look at what I think the dog needs most. Depending on the dog, even going outside to pee is too much distraction so maybe it is better to go to a quiet park and deal with wildlife in exchange for avoiding the half dozen screaming kids.

For example, Frankie was dog reactive. She had some care about small prey but she was fine with kids and adults. So the priority was starting the training with the most minimal chance of loose dogs as possible; we ended up training and walking for awhile at the fairgrounds in the off-season. Or even on some very busy urban sidewalks with plenty of people around- might seem like an overwhelming choice of location but with that many cars and people, basically no one ever lets their dog loose so we could train without her going over threshold on her specific problem (in the beginning, of course we also worked on the dog reactive issue with good success). 

Or if a dog is over-excitable about kids, I will wait until all the bus drop-offs are done in the neighborhood but the downside of that is then it is dusk and there are more wild rabbits running around. Upside is that it is quiet and I can get the treats out and work with the dog without a dozen people asking me what I'm doing or wanting to pet the dog. After awhile, when the dog has a more solid sit and stay, I let the older neighbor kids greet the dog on a walk, and then we progress to walks when it is busier and then finally to adoption events or such where there are lots of kids and adults.

I've used industrial parks after-hours, some big open areas owned by my employer, the fairgrounds and parking lots off-season, even a nunnery's grounds for space that suits the dog as best as possible. Thank goodness I own a car 

Heck, I though Eva's prey drive while walking was doing a lot better, we've been on a harness or flat collar in both the neighborhood and the usual park but today she went nutso for something I never would have guessed would trigger prey drive: turtles. Not turtles moving even. Turtles sunning on a log. Durrr.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<Although I do agree that correcting the one who forgot their manners is the absolute appropriate move (rather than the one who growled), if your dogs are so well behaved and listen because they respect you so much, why is a correction even necessary, why not just recall that dog to you, or even just tell them to leave it? That is unless you consider 'leave it' as a correction....as in just correcting what they are doing by getting them to execute a different behavior, not 'issuing a correction, whether verbal or physical (I personally don't consider that as a correction...although the word correction can be applied). >>

Wow....just when I thought you got it....the scenario you are talking about is between the dogs to figure out...I only get involved when it DOESN'T work. This scenario isn't about their respect for me, but of their respect for their fellow dogs. I brought up this scenario because it happens....it has happened in my house maybe five times in as many years....I fail to see how a "recall" command on my part would have produced the result I wanted. My dogs not only live with me, they live with other dogs, and they need to understand THAT as well. I want my dogs to understand a "leave it" command from another dog...and not rely on ME....so yes...I'll reinforce a correction given by a righteous dog. Their eating together has NOTHING to do with a recall or leave it command. It has to do with each dog respecting the cues of all of the other dogs. I simply support THEM.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<Well, I read this as saying not needed...>>

I can't help, nor have no control over how you "read" something that I never said. But please try not to put words in my mouth simply because you interpret something very different than what I said.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<So for those of us that foster or acquire adult dogs that come with existing problems such as resource guarding (and yes, this is a commonly accepted term for a group of behaviors not something I made up), should we just kick them out the door because RG isn't allowed?>>

So you are again curiously and erroneously "reading" into what I wrote, and you curiously have come to a very false conclusion, instead of actually learning something. I've done quite a bit of fostering and taking in strays with all sorts of animals, mostly belligerent individuals of my breed. Since you mischaracterized my walking of such dogs on a soft slip....and mischaracterized most everything else I have written about...I'm guessing you'll mischaracterize everything. But from the first time I take a stray or a rescue...it IS on my terms...even dogs that have been surrendered because of supposed "aggressive" tendencies. Dogs actually understand more than what we give them credit for. The worst dog I had, who had been in three different homes due to "aggressiveness" I did what I always do, and he went for my hands (which I expected) and because everybody before me who he had done this to, recoiled in fear....I did the opposite...I allowed him to "go after my hands" and I simply didn't flinch or draw away. He didn't know how to hurt anybody because nobody ever told him that simple act was unacceptable. Hmmm....THAT simple act on my part pretty much cured resource guarding because he knew I wasn't afraid. I could pet him while he ate, I could add food to his bowl, I could take his bowl away....all stuff his previous owners said could never happen. And I did that on the first night based on how I introduced myself to this dog.

Now...for sure...there are truly dangerous dogs who will KILL YOU or seriously maim you even after doing all the right things. It is not rocket science...and "training" won't cure that sort of behavior...they either will or won't submit...and if you are skilled enough to overcome it....you had better keep that rescue dog for yourself, because most people don't understand it. So...I have absolutely a lot of experience with throw away dogs, and they ALL usually come with "RG" issues...because people ALLOW those issues to exist....the majority of dogs can be cured very quickly of that. And that is why I say I DON'T allow RG issues. My rescue dogs after my care no longer have those issues, and my own dogs certainly don't have those issues. 

So let me ask you...if you know so much...why do you accept RG as an excuse, rather than something to be fixed? Maybe you'll understand dogs better if you take that behavior out of the equation. You can accomplish so much more...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think anyone is saying they just accept RGing and don't work on it. That's kind of nuts. But you're not saying what you do to cure it, except for that one dog where you just didn't respond. Which probably wasn't actual RGing (which is where the dog is legitimately terrified someone is going to take his stuff), that one was probably more bossiness/posturing. Because simply not responding is not going to cure most dogs of RGing. Is that how you've cured all your dogs of RGingm or did others require more extensive desensitization?

Telling people what you actually do would be more useful than just saying you don't allow it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<So for those of us that foster or acquire adult dogs that come with existing problems such as resource guarding (and yes, this is a commonly accepted term for a group of behaviors not something I made up), should we just kick them out the door because RG isn't allowed?>>
> 
> So you are again curiously and erroneously "reading" into what I wrote, and you curiously have come to a very false conclusion, instead of actually learning something. I've done quite a bit of fostering and taking in strays with all sorts of animals, mostly belligerent individuals of my breed. Since you mischaracterized my walking of such dogs on a soft slip....and mischaracterized most everything else I have written about...I'm guessing you'll mischaracterize everything. But from the first time I take a stray or a rescue...it IS on my terms...even dogs that have been surrendered because of supposed "aggressive" tendencies. Dogs actually understand more than what we give them credit for. The worst dog I had, who had been in three different homes due to "aggressiveness" I did what I always do, and he went for my hands (which I expected) and because everybody before me who he had done this to, recoiled in fear....I did the opposite...I allowed him to "go after my hands" and I simply didn't flinch or draw away. He didn't know how to hurt anybody because nobody ever told him that simple act was unacceptable. Hmmm....THAT simple act on my part pretty much cured resource guarding because he knew I wasn't afraid. I could pet him while he ate, I could add food to his bowl, I could take his bowl away....all stuff his previous owners said could never happen. And I did that on the first night based on how I introduced myself to this dog.
> 
> ...


What I will never understand is why people feel the need to mess with their dogs while they are eating ... I have never and will never see the point of that, its just aseasy to put the dog in a crate or separate room (or both) so prevent interaction with people or other animals.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> What I will never understand is why people feel the need to mess with their dogs while they are eating ... I have never and will never see the point of that, its just aseasy to put the dog in a crate or separate room (or both) so prevent interaction with people or other animals.



You may not see the point in it until...... The dog is eating something you do not want it to have...

Your ability to get the dog to stop eating and take food away from it, can be the difference between your dog living and dying...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think it's great to prevent RGing by working with the dog... some hand-feeding, tossing treats into its bowl while it's eating, trading a good toy/treat for a great toy/treat, using puzzle toys to feed, stuff like that. I've done that with all of my dogs and they've never developed RGing issues. 

However, I don't do stuff like stick my hand in their bowls while they're eating, take their food away for no reason, or grab valued things from them for no reason. I _could_ -- and I have definitely taken things like cooked chicken bones from them when they grabbed them during a walk -- but I _don't_, because it's rude, and because too much of that can cause RGing issues. 

I also don't see the point in making your dogs eat right next to each other. What are you trying to prove, and to whom? The dogs are more comfortable with a bit of space.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Justdogs said:


> I want my dogs to understand a "leave it" command from another dog...and not rely on ME....so yes...I'll reinforce a correction given by a righteous dog. Their eating together has NOTHING to do with a recall or leave it command. It has to do with each dog respecting the cues of all of the other dogs. I simply support THEM.


Well, if the dog isn't responding appropriately to the other dog growling, something needs to occur, and a correction isn't always necessary. If you recall the dog, or even just say "leave it" (assuming they know that command at the time), they might start learning what is expected of them before an all out fight happens. Sure, maybe an all out fight will teach the dog to leave the other one's food alone, but really....why leave it that late. With our foster Dexter (who was a food hog), we supervised when they ate, closely at first. We would call him to us whenever he started looking like he was going to try to get at Caeda's food, or we would tell him to leave it, he would get a treat for this. After several sessions of this, he would eye up the food, but he would walk away from the bowls after he was done (they ate about 3 feet apart), and for a while we treated for this, then phased the treats out. After a while we honestly didn't even need to supervise them (though we were usually nearby, just due to what we were doing around the house). He was somewhat dog selective, and was very fearful of some dogs, he was ok with Caeda, but had we let them fight it out, that probably would have changed....plus he lacked a lot of confidence, he was hand shy when he came to us, so "making him submit" or issuing any kind of correction would have been counterproductive. Leaving the dogs to figure it out....not a good plan in many cases. 

And yes, I DO get it by the way, I just don't agree with you.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Honestly I don't understand the obsessions so many people have with bothering dogs while they are eating or wanting dogs to eat next to each other, either. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> You may not see the point in it until...... The dog is eating something you do not want it to have...
> 
> Your ability to get the dog to stop eating and take food away from it, can be the difference between your dog living and dying...


That's important, but it can be taught completely separately from everyday meals. In my house, everybody gets to relax and eat their actual meals in peace. If I want to work on being able to take stuff away from them, we work on it with other stuff.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I self feed so there is food available at all times and have never, so far, had anyone guard the food. They may growl at one of the other dogs if it comes near them when they are chewing on a bone but the other dogs respect that and leave them alone. I can take anything away from any of my dogs but I do start them out with the "trading game" so it is never a problem. I never leave them alone with fresh, tasty bones but give them to the dogs when I am there to supervise in case they decide to argue over them, or I separate them in crates.

If I have something special to feed them, I just put separate dishes down and each dog goes to a bowl eats then goes and check out everyone else's bowl which is usually already empty so there is never any growling between them.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Honestly I don't understand the obsessions so many people have with bothering dogs while they are eating or wanting dogs to eat next to each other, either.
> 
> 
> 
> That's important, but it can be taught completely separately from everyday meals. In my house, everybody gets to relax and eat their actual meals in peace. If I want to work on being able to take stuff away from them, we work on it with other stuff.


Like this:


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Honestly I don't understand the obsessions so many people have with bothering dogs while they are eating or wanting dogs to eat next to each other, either.
> 
> 
> 
> That's important, but it can be taught completely separately from everyday meals. In my house, everybody gets to relax and eat their actual meals in peace. If I want to work on being able to take stuff away from them, we work on it with other stuff.


Yes I make sure I keep me personally giving things (like treats and their food) and things they may pick up or when people try to give them things (something I never allow) seperate from each other. For things they might pick up, and otherwise get that I didn't give to them I play the "what's that!" And "trade up" game. By the time I am done they BRINGING things they shouldn't have TO me for a "trade up".

But no, once I give them something (whether it be a treat or their food) it is there's and I leave them be with it. Heck I even trade up when I pick up their empty bowls lol.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Honestly I don't understand the obsessions so many people have with bothering dogs while they are eating or wanting dogs to eat next to each other, either.


I agree with you that a lot of people worry about it far too much, however, when Diesel was with us, the first time or two we fed him he growled if we even walked by (really low, really quiet, but it was definitely there...). We made a point of training him that at VERY least, if we walked by, there was nothing bad going to happen, we weren't taking his food, and if we DID lift his food dish (which we finally got to, but we took it slow and easy) REALLY awesome things happened, and we NEVER took his food dish while he was eating, we would wait until he scoffed the last kibble, and we always asked him to sit before we took it (no creeping up behind him and grabbing it or anything). Honestly, if he hadn't been growling simply from us walking by, we wouldn't have even progressed to the point of getting him to be ok with us touching his dish, but since he did, we wanted to get him as comfortable as was possible with us around his food because he was a foster, and that was one issue we knew we could help with and not pass on to his permanent home. 
We only ever did a bit of work on the guarding issue with Caeda when it came to raw bones, mainly because they take SO long to work through, we didn't want her eating the whole thing at once, plus she ate them outside, and sometimes it is just plain old time to go in. The first time we approached her when she had a bone (and I mean walked by her) she made Cujo noises, bared her teeth and everything (at about 6 months), it was a scary moment. We never ask her to leave it when she has just gotten it (we never take it away, we just ask her to sit, and come with us, then we go to get it, or if she had it for a while we'll ask her to bring it and give it to us, and we always trade for another small treat). 
I do think there are valid reasons to worry about being able to approach a dog while they are eating, but some people do go to far, insisting on being able to mess with their dogs and the food WHILE the dog is trying to eat when there has been no guarding issue to begin with (I think that can create issues sometimes honestly). And dogs don't need to eat side by side, though Caeda and Dexter did, initially they were in separate rooms, but not separated by a gate, and we called Dexter away from Caeda several times since he would finish and seek her out, eventually he just didn't go near her anymore when she was eating.....and the food bowls gradually got closer, for no real reason, they just did, and there was no problem (we got lucky though....and if there had been problems, we wouldn't have worked too hard on it, we would have used a gate).


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Y
> 
> But no, once I give them something (whether it be a treat or their food) it is there's and I leave them be with it. Heck I even trade up when I pick up their empty bowls lol.



And when you give them something that you realize after they have it, you need it back... You have no way to get it back....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Of course you do. The dog is so used to you trading it good things and never grabbing its valued stuff that if you have to do it once in a while, the dog is fine with it. Like I said earlier, I worked when my dogs were young to prevent RGing from ever happening. I never mess with them while they're eating. But if they grab something dangerous on a walk (like those cooked fried chicken bones), I can take it away easily.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Of course you do. The dog is so used to you trading it good things and never grabbing its valued stuff that if you have to do it once in a while, the dog is fine with it. Like I said earlier, I worked when my dogs were young to prevent RGing from ever happening. I never mess with them while they're eating. But if they grab something dangerous on a walk (like those cooked fried chicken bones), I can take it away easily.


Yeah the trade up game transcends items and situations, if you never take without giving back them they will never know to RG because they never felt the need to.

Though if I give them something I make sure I sit need I back, in case of bones , when they go out for the day I will go behind and pick them up (if I don't want them to have them thr following night).


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Of course you do. The dog is so used to you trading it good things and never grabbing its valued stuff that if you have to do it once in a while, the dog is fine with it. Like I said earlier, I worked when my dogs were young to prevent RGing from ever happening. I never mess with them while they're eating. But if they grab something dangerous on a walk (like those cooked fried chicken bones), I can take it away easily.


If you never mess with them when they are eating.... You do not know if you can get their bowl away from them or not.

What if a piece of glass flies in their bowl right in the middle of their meal...

Can you get them off their bowl, verbally? Instantly? 

Fact is... Unless this is something you have practiced... You do not know.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I am not suggesting being anal about it... I am not suggesting being a drill instructor.....

I am saying it is important that you know for sure that you can get the bowl away, or ANYTHING else for that matter, away from your dog in an instant, without a fuss, without trading up....

You may never need it, but if you do, it will likely be IMPORTANT and very well mean life and death... 

A friend of mine was cooking.. And throwing scraps to his dogs at his feet... Fun times... 

Went to take his cardiac meds before he ate. The bottle got away from him.....He could have used the ability to get the dogs off something in an instant.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

A piece of glass? Meds? Poison? My dogs are fed in a very controlled environment, in my room away from things that can fall in their bowls or hurt them. I make sure nothing can fall on them because I always want feeding time to be a good experience


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If you never mess with them when they are eating.... You do not know if you can get their bowl away from them or not.
> 
> What if a piece of glass flies in their bowl right in the middle of their meal...
> 
> ...


Yes, I am as positive as you can be with anything concerning dogs. I have taken multiple high-value things (dangerous garbage like the chicken bones) from them on walks. I can also grab their antlers/bully sticks/whatever in play. My dogs don't guard from me because of the foundation work we did (and which I reinforce occasionally by dropping extra food into their bowls while they eat). I don't have to mess with them constantly to prove that.

And yes, I can order them to drop anything and they will do it. On the very rare occasions they won't (the thing is just too unusual and exciting), I can take it without being bitten or even growled at.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Yes, I am as positive as you can be with anything concerning dogs. I have taken multiple high-value things (dangerous garbage like the chicken bones) from them on walks. I can also grab their antlers/bully sticks/whatever in play. My dogs don't guard from me because of the foundation work we did (and which I reinforce occasionally by dropping extra food into their bowls while they eat). I don't have to mess with them constantly to prove that.
> 
> And yes, I can order them to drop anything and they will do it. On the very rare occasions they won't (the thing is just too unusual and exciting), I can take it without being bitten or even growled at.


Then that is all you need....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> A piece of glass? Meds? Poison? My dogs are fed in a very controlled environment, in my room away from things that can fall in their bowls or hurt them. I make sure nothing can fall on them because I always want feeding time to be a good experience


Does not matter if you feed them in a padded room... Things can happen..

You could have to leave your home for some reason... Home was damaged in a storm, etc... And you could lose complete control of the environment.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Yes, I am as positive as you can be with anything concerning dogs. I have taken multiple high-value things (dangerous garbage like the chicken bones) from them on walks. I can also grab their antlers/bully sticks/whatever in play. My dogs don't guard from me because of the foundation work we did (and which I reinforce occasionally by dropping extra food into their bowls while they eat). I don't have to mess with them constantly to prove that.
> 
> And yes, I can order them to drop anything and they will do it. On the very rare occasions they won't (the thing is just too unusual and exciting), I can take it without being bitten or even growled at.



And if you have never proofed it... how do you know you cannot take it or cause them to leave a bowl mid meal?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If you never mess with them when they are eating.... You do not know if you can get their bowl away from them or not.
> 
> What if a piece of glass flies in their bowl right in the middle of their meal...
> 
> ...


If I can take a RMB away from them instantly and verbally, I'm pretty confident I can do it over a bowl of their everyday food. Practicing with very, very high value items means I don't feel the need to practice with their normal food. 

The only times so far I've needed to take a bowl away have been a few times when I put the wrong bowl down for the wrong dog. And yes I can do it, and the few times it's happened has been with Pip who actually IS a RGer in remission. The other two have never RG'd a thing in their lives so I don't lose sleep over it but I still practice with high value items.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yep, what sassafras said. If I can take fried chicken bones with bits of skin and batter still on them from Cas on a walk, I can certainly grab his bowl if I ever have to. I feed both dogs in their crates, though, so the chance of me having to grab their food from them because of a problem is slim.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> If I can take a RMB away from them instantly and verbally, I'm pretty confident I can do it over a bowl of their everyday food. Practicing with very, very high value items means I don't feel the need to practice with their normal food.
> 
> The only times so far I've needed to take a bowl away have been a few times when I put the wrong bowl down for the wrong dog. And yes I can do it, and the few times it's happened has been with Pip who actually IS a RGer in remission. The other two have never RG'd a thing in their lives so I don't lose sleep over it but I still practice with high value items.


then you know you can do it...

Easy enough...

As I said, no need to make a huge deal about it....

And feeding them together is pure stupidity...

But I do strongly feel that an owner needs to be sure they can do it....

I will also add that some dogs place a higher value and will guard their bowls when they will readily surrender other things...

I am NOT suggesting being a fanatic about it... So NO ONE please take it that way.........

But I recently saw the value....

I was 8 days post surgery.... I had prepared seven days of meals for the dogs.. I EXPECTED to be farther along in recovery than I was... However, complications put me in ICU... So I was out of meals... Melissa will not make a raw meal for the dogs.. The easy thing to do would have been to get her to go to the store and buy some dog food or even a few pounds of ground beef.. etc. She would have put that in a bowl. 

But I am far to anal for that...

So there I was preparing the dogs meals... Two were eating in other rooms, I brought Merlin's and put it down in the kitchen... Mind you I am on two percocet every four hours.... I went to grab my glass of water... I am mouth breathing because I have packing up my nose, and I had my entire throat reconstructed.... So water was a constant need. The glass slipped out of my hand, shattered on the tile... I am barefoot and Merlin's bowl is two feet away....

I NEEDED it that day.... And I got it.

I went over 40 years of feeding dogs and never needed it.... And may not need it again.. .


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> A piece of glass? Meds? Poison? My dogs are fed in a very controlled environment, in my room away from things that can fall in their bowls or hurt them. I make sure nothing can fall on them because I always want feeding time to be a good experience


by the way.... My friend was not feeding his dogs when he spilled his meds... He simply spilled them and the dogs were present and accustomed to grabbing food that was dropped.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Yep, what sassafras said. If I can take fried chicken bones with bits of skin and batter still on them from Cas on a walk, I can certainly grab his bowl if I ever have to. I feed both dogs in their crates, though, so the chance of me having to grab their food from them because of a problem is slim.



Slim as it is... All I am saying.... Is try it.... One time... You are not going to wreck the dog or harm its psyche in doing so....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Ironically while we are discussing this... I sat a plate of wings down for a snack... Went to get my drink... I get back and two wings are missing... 

Merlin who was SOUND asleeep was not where he was... I found him and the cat in another room eating them.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Slim as it is... All I am saying.... Is try it.... One time... You are not going to wreck the dog or harm its psyche in doing so....


Oh, I've picked up their bowls and moved them while they were eating before. No issues. I just don't make a habit of bugging them while they're eating. I put their bowls in their crates and they go in and eat.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Oh, I've picked up their bowls and moved them while they were eating before. No issues. I just don't make a habit of bugging them while they're eating. I put their bowls in their crates and they go in and eat.


Then you are set...

Neither do I..... Maybe once every six months on adult dogs.. More on puppies....

If folks do it the way I do it, the dogs will LOVE it. If I pick up a bowl to proof a dog, I put a hunk of duck liver or something similar in the bowl and put it back down.(duck liver is about as high of a value item as I have ever found) 


But the way I learned to train, PROOF EVERYTHING you train or want the dog to do... IF you do NOT proof you do not know if the dog will do it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sorry JB lol they just too smart for us


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

as far as the resource guarding.... my take on it especially if you just brought your puppy or older dog into the home and you notice some RG ,, grumbles, what ever it is,, over it.. "stop for a moment and think to yourself if what you do next going to drive the behavior deeper, drive it to the next level of guarding or relieve it... For me total avoidance of making an action that will drive a behavior deeper, escalate a dog for the next time directly at you when there is no need to fight that battle at that moment. 

We not talking about a chicken bone on the street... We talking about meal time that happens twice a day for the rest of their lives in your home around you , your other animals, and your family... 

New dogs and puppies, they have no other skills for you to work with them, so keep them and everyone safe feeding them in a crate in a quiet area and walk away, and when they done open the door you walk away and let them leave their bowl behind on their own and you can go and pick it up. put a baby gate up if you have to so when you walk back to the crate to retrieve the bowl the dog can't come racing back at you because your going towards the bowl. And yes I have worked with it that level. For me sometimes dog are just not ready in certain areas, but I will provide them peace and space for their meals. We have lots to learn in skills and interactions, schedules, focus, attention, that will be the key to working with them when we get there. Don't create a monster when you don't have to.. 

I hate to see anyone find one thing in a dog and pick at it like a scab over and over and over again even though every time they pick at it, it bleeds and gets worse, they keep picking at it until it causes a huge scar that will never heal.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I do think it is nice to be able to do anything I might need to do with their food bowls without worrying about them growling or anything. Xena has never had issues with me touching anything of hers, so that was lucky. I worked on Eko's resource guarding and once he stopped doing it I stopped messing with it. I actually think eating with Xena helped it a little bit. They usually don't eat right next to each other but they are in the same room a few feet from each other now. Sometimes as they are eating they push the bowls together but they just eat their own food then lick each other's bowls clean. They share pretty well, there was some growls at first but once they figured things out between them they don't growl anymore. They play tug of war all the time and have a blast. When they get bones I make sure they don't pester each other and stick to their own bone. Xena still has trouble with that but now I tell her no before she even gets up to go steal Eko's things when she gives him the look.

I dropped my medicine before and I can stop them before they even pick it up. If they get it before I say leave it I say drop it and they drop it. I can open their mouths and physically take it if I have to since they are both used to it from taking medicine.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> As I said, no need to make a huge deal about it....
> 
> And feeding them together is pure stupidity...
> 
> ...


I agree that an owner needs to make sure they can take things away. I look at RG against humans totally different than against another dog though.

And I have examples of needing to take things away that are very much like yours. Eva was laying in the yard and munching on grass and the occasional stick while I read a book. I am watching her out of the corner of my eye and I hear her crunch down on something that was way too loud to be a stick. I leapt up and grabbed a big shard of broken ceramic plate out of her mouth. She doesn't yet have "drop it" down but she is making good progress on giving items up and she gave her "new chew toy" up willingly. 

Another time I see Chester trying to grab something in the yard that was moving, I hollered "LEAVE IT!" and he dropped it. Small snake. Non-venomous but it could have bit his face or eyes and still hurt him. 

If I let them eat something off the floor that was spilled, they have to wait for permission, not just run for it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Then you are set...
> 
> Neither do I..... Maybe once every six months on adult dogs.. More on puppies....
> 
> ...


I do a similar exercise but just drop delicious treats in near/the bowl when I walk by the bowl. No need to actually take the bowl away in my opinion. 

I'm not saying you're an awful person who is mean to dogs. But I personally strongly believe that meals, once given to dogs, are "theirs" to have in peace and I don't like to use taking actual meals away for training purposes. Maybe my perspective is different because I had to reform a dog who came to me as a strong RGer (Pip) but stress hormones and digestion do not mix well IMO and there are plenty of ways to practice hands-off and with other items to get me where I want to be without adding a dash of adrenaline to my dog's meals.

I'm not saying I walk on eggshells or can't/won't move freely around an eating dog (and the dog described earlier in the thread who growled at someone walking by is a dog I would consider a RGer and would address accordingly) but I am perfectly comfortable with training hands-off-the-bowl and in my case the proof has been in the pudding. 

And honestly, if worse came to worst and my methods turned out to be useless, then I guess I would just take a hit over something like broken glass and think about how I wanted to move forward.


ETA: Eating stuff that drops on the floor is a whole 'nother ball game and I train that separately. They aren't allowed to until I release it, just a lot of practice with "It's Yer Choice" type games and honestly the mushing has helped tremendously with my dogs' "leave it" since we are forever having to go "on by" things they want to investigate.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

No I wasn't insuinating that he was mean either, I was more referencing people who feel the need to mess with their dogs "CM style" :/ as if that is going to help anything :/


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> I do a similar exercise but just drop delicious treats in near/the bowl when I walk by the bowl. No need to actually take the bowl away in my opinion.
> 
> I'm not saying you're an awful person who is mean to dogs. But I personally strongly believe that meals, once given to dogs, are "theirs" to have in peace and I don't like to use taking actual meals away for training purposes. Maybe my perspective is different because I had to reform a dog who came to me as a strong RGer (Pip) but stress hormones and digestion do not mix well IMO and there are plenty of ways to practice hands-off and with other items to get me where I want to be without adding a dash of adrenaline to my dog's meals.
> 
> ...



Yea the pills on the ground are a DIFFERENT story.... I brought it in to point out bad accidents can happen....

And I never thought you were suggesting I am a mean person...

I just go back to if you do not proof you do not know..

I do not feel I stress my dogs with the work I do...


And I do not stress RG.... In fact I find it can be useful.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<What I will never understand is why people feel the need to mess with their dogs while they are eating ... I have never and will never see the point of that, its just aseasy to put the dog in a crate or separate room (or both) so prevent interaction with people or other animals. >>

First of all...I don't "feel the need to mess" with my dogs while they are eating. I put food down...they eat. But there are times I DO need to interrupt things....and I can interrupt things as I see fit without issue. The second thing you say: " its just aseasy to put the dog in a crate or separate room (or both) so prevent interaction with people or other animals." Preventing an issue gives you absolutely no information as to whether or not an issue needs to be addressed. For me, with four dogs, it is not just as easy to do the whole dance of separating dogs with crates or rooms....what is easy for me is to make their meals and put down their meals in the exact same spot. THAT is easy. and that is what I do.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<I think it's great to prevent RGing by working with the dog... some hand-feeding, tossing treats into its bowl while it's eating, trading a good toy/treat for a great toy/treat, using puzzle toys to feed, stuff like that. I've done that with all of my dogs and they've never developed RGing issues. However, I don't do stuff like stick my hand in their bowls while they're eating, take their food away for no reason, or grab valued things from them for no reason. I could -- and I have definitely taken things like cooked chicken bones from them when they grabbed them during a walk -- but I don't, because it's rude, and because too much of that can cause RGing issues. I also don't see the point in making your dogs eat right next to each other. What are you trying to prove, and to whom? The dogs are more comfortable with a bit of space.>>

Maybe your dogs are comfortable with more space...my dogs are just fine eating next to each other. I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody...I have merely stated the fact that my dogs eat right next to each other with no issues.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you're not trying to prove anything to anybody, why are you responding defensively to posts that weren't even directed at you?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<What I will never understand is why people feel the need to mess with their dogs while they are eating ... I have never and will never see the point of that, its just aseasy to put the dog in a crate or separate room (or both) so prevent interaction with people or other animals. >>
> 
> First of all...I don't "feel the need to mess" with my dogs while they are eating. I put food down...they eat. But there are times I DO need to interrupt things....and I can interrupt things as I see fit without issue. The second thing you say: " its just aseasy to put the dog in a crate or separate room (or both) so prevent interaction with people or other animals." Preventing an issue gives you absolutely no information as to whether or not an issue needs to be addressed. For me, with four dogs, it is not just as easy to do the whole dance of separating dogs with crates or rooms....what is easy for me is to make their meals and put down their meals in the exact same spot. THAT is easy. and that is what I do.


Just so you know, I also have 4 dogs 

I hsve had as many as 4 crates in my bedroom before but since my dogs don't need to be in a crate for any other purpose, I only have one in a crate now because I tie the others up during feeding time and although they can see each other, they know they can't get at each other. Feeding dogs in the presence of other dogs to make them comfortable about it only works if they never have a bad experience.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<We only ever did a bit of work on the guarding issue with Caeda when it came to raw bones, mainly because they take SO long to work through, we didn't want her eating the whole thing at once, plus she ate them outside, and sometimes it is just plain old time to go in. The first time we approached her when she had a bone (and I mean walked by her) she made Cujo noises, bared her teeth and everything (at about 6 months), it was a scary moment. We never ask her to leave it when she has just gotten it (we never take it away, we just ask her to sit, and come with us, then we go to get it, or if she had it for a while we'll ask her to bring it and give it to us, and we always trade for another small treat). >>

Well that above quote simply illustrates why Greater Swiss will simply never understand how I deal with my dogs. She says it herself...fear. "it was a scary moment". She never does that, she never does this....she is acquiescing to her dog's will and her dogs know it. I give raw bones to my dogs all the time. A very primal issue...raw, chewing...absolute possessiveness....aarrrrgh!!! (tim allen imitation thing going on). My dogs know how to work a raw bone...they devour very large bones over a couple hours where the bone is small enough that I don't want them to have it anymore because they don't understand that "swallowing a larger chunk will result in a very painful and expensive obstruction surgery. That is my job to know that. So it is also my job to take from them what used to be a very big bone, to what is now a dangerous smaller bone away from them. Cujo noises? Absolutely! That is our "game." They growl and snarl and lift their lips (bare their teeth as Greater Swiss says). 

The difference is Greater Swiss thought that behavior was scary and I knew it was simply communication. Of course they didn't want me to take away the bone! This plays perfectly into explaining to those people who don't understand why I feed my dogs next to each other...why I DON'T "simply" feed them apart in order to "avoid" conflicts. How do they learn how to behave if you AVOID the situations where it is of utmost importance that they accept what you do? I truly find it very sad that Greater Swiss thought that 
"Cujo noises" was a very scary situation. My dogs present "cujo" moments to me all the time...I certainly don't FEAR it. Nor do I correct it. I've wrenched bones out of the mouths of my dogs when I've needed to because of safety issues. They can protest and growl and lift their lips all they want, but I know (because I've done it for 30 years) that they won't bite me. 

YES you can do the whole "I'll trade you that bone for another treat" thing...its is a good way for to train pups....but there WILL come a time when that pup or dog rejects the trade-off and chooses to keep something that for whatever reason you don't want him/her to have. If your dog figures out her are afraid of that growl or lifted lip....then I guess you will forever live in fear of a multitude of issues with your dog. I totally understand the canine attitude of having a raw meaty bone in its grasp. I also know when I need to take it away, and I recognize the fact he/she doesn't understand WHY....and thus...they'll make all sorts of growls and snarls and but I know, and they know I know, I am not in fear of those sounds, thus I can take a raw bone at any time without fear of their protests. I'm sorry that you are afraid of your dog.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm not on the internet everyday...so I am responding to things said long ago...sorry if that upsets your sensibilities. I'm also sorry if you think I am being defensive...I'm merely giving my viewpoint and experiences just like everybody else.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<We only ever did a bit of work on the guarding issue with Caeda when it came to raw bones, mainly because they take SO long to work through, we didn't want her eating the whole thing at once, plus she ate them outside, and sometimes it is just plain old time to go in. The first time we approached her when she had a bone (and I mean walked by her) she made Cujo noises, bared her teeth and everything (at about 6 months), it was a scary moment. We never ask her to leave it when she has just gotten it (we never take it away, we just ask her to sit, and come with us, then we go to get it, or if she had it for a while we'll ask her to bring it and give it to us, and we always trade for another small treat). >>
> 
> Well that above quote simply illustrates why Greater Swiss will simply never understand how I deal with my dogs. She says it herself...fear. "it was a scary moment". She never does that, she never does this....she is acquiescing to her dog's will and her dogs know it. I give raw bones to my dogs all the time. A very primal issue...raw, chewing...absolute possessiveness....aarrrrgh!!! (tim allen imitation thing going on). My dogs know how to work a raw bone...they devour very large bones over a couple hours where the bone is small enough that I don't want them to have it anymore because they don't understand that "swallowing a larger chunk will result in a very painful and expensive obstruction surgery. That is my job to know that. So it is also my job to take from them what used to be a very big bone, to what is now a dangerous smaller bone away from them. Cujo noises? Absolutely! That is our "game." They growl and snarl and lift their lips (bare their teeth as Greater Swiss says).
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone here is afraid of their dog . If you prevent conflicts the dog never learns they can happen and therefore a reaction never develops. Dogs RG because the situation makes them think they have to. If that situation never happens then they usually won't RG. 

I also have never had a dog refuse a offer to trade up because if what they have is high value than what I trade them for will be high value and that depends on the dog. It would be usually something the don't get like cheese or a nice slice of hot dog


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<New dogs and puppies, they have no other skills for you to work with them, so keep them and everyone safe feeding them in a crate in a quiet area and walk away, and when they done open the door you walk away and let them leave their bowl behind on their own and you can go and pick it up. put a baby gate up if you have to so when you walk back to the crate to retrieve the bowl the dog can't come racing back at you because your going towards the bowl. And yes I have worked with it that level. For me sometimes dog are just not ready in certain areas, but I will provide them peace and space for their meals. We have lots to learn in skills and interactions, schedules, focus, attention, that will be the key to working with them when we get there. Don't create a monster when you don't have to.. >>

I can only disagree based on what I do. Whether as a breeder or a rescuer, once a dog comes into my house, they eat along side my other dogs. They actually get fed FIRST...which is a concept my current dogs understand...I don't cater to the notion of the "alpha" dog gets fed first...whoever happens to be the "alpha" dog in my house still knows who and what I am...so the new dog or the new pup gets fed first, simply so they are busy eating while the established dogs get their food placed right next to them. This is where, in these initial days until I am comfortable that the new dog/pup "gets it" that I pay close attention...they will invariable finish first and want to bug another dog...my dogs will growl and I am there to reinforce that learning. I allow my dogs to teach the new ones....and in 30 years it works. Everybody knows who's food is who's. I don't need to play musical rooms or musical crates simply to feed dogs. And no...they aren't stressed, they play or sleep entangled with each other after meals....I'm amazed that some people think this sort of thing "fosters" resource guarding, because it does exactly the opposite...dogs that can eat peacefully next to each other REDUCES RG rather than fosters it. What a concept!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

@Justdogs you still didn't answer my statement why not just prevent RG in the first place by preventing the dogs from getting to each other? You said you were a breeder, what breed do you breed? Some dogs and breeds are more prone to RG than others.

ACDs tend to be more prone to RG, so I tend not to set them up for failure. As for letting dogs approach other dogs while they are eating ??? Sorry but that's just ... Crazy and accomplishes nothing IMHO


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<I don't think anyone here is afraid of their dog .>>

Um...I think I proffered quotes to the contrary.

<< If you prevent conflicts the dog never learns they can happen and therefore a reaction never develops. >>

I simply disagree with this. Nature is nature. Dogs aren't robots. You can't "prevent" every conflict....but how you react to conflicts is how your life with dogs will ensue, and if people 'fear' conflicts rather than deal with them, I guess that sort of explains why people like you want to segregate dogs in crates or rooms or use "devices" rather than actually addressing the issue....my dogs aren't perfect, I "deal" with them on daily basis. They DON'T like their nails to be done...and they will sometimes fight or scream due to THEIR own histrionics but that doesn't mean I have to buy into THEIR world. Just because they KNOW what I will accept and not accept doesn't mean they don't sometimes test me...the nature of a good owner demands that I don't show weakness, but also understands that these issues are normal. 

I truly don't "get" the concept that sequestering a dog "prevents" RG....except that I GUESS if such a dog is never allowed to exhibit such behavior, that I guess it is okay with you. I put puppies alongside established dogs that DON'T have RG issues so that puppy LEARNS from dogs that such behaviors AREN'T allowed. I have three generations of dogs that calmly eating next to each other to prove that. I don't GET why some people think that is somehow stressful or wrong. Seriously....who WOULDN'T prefer dogs that can eat next to each other rather than having to scatter dogs throughout the house in different rooms or different crates.....how DO you truly know these dogs???? You don't...because you aren't allowing them to be dogs. How do you truly KNOW a dog because you are scared that the dog growls at you when you "simply walk by" when he has a bone? 

If one thinks it is "rude" to take something away from a dog....then how do you KNOW you can when it becomes necessary? I don't harass my dogs while they are eating or when they are chewing a bone...because I had to do a few things a few times in the beginning of that whole learning process to let them know I am NOT AFRAID of a growl...that it "wasn't scary" that I heard Cujo sounds coming from them....if you want to FOSTER resource guarding???? Go ahead and allow them to feel your fear and go ahead and keep them separate. Like I said, to this day...I HAVE to take away prized, well chewed bones away from my dogs when they get too small.....and I could care less that they may still growl...I actually treat it as a game...but they know I'm taking it. I never, ever fear my dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<I don't think anyone here is afraid of their dog .>>
> 
> Um...I think I proffered quotes to the contrary.
> 
> ...


I don't understand how the post in bold reflects fear, but ok, whatever. 

I do not fear my dogs either and I have hard nosed dogs, dogs that if they "got" to each other it would mean a serious fight. Not all dogs will back off to another dogs growl. My job is to manage my dogs environment so they don't have to feel like they need to defend themselves against other people or dogs. 

And my dogs are all fed in the same room, three are tied up while they eat , the other is in a crate be dude he doesn't handle tying well and he is a huge glutton who will try to steal food.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Justdogs said:


> Well that above quote simply illustrates why Greater Swiss will simply never understand how I deal with my dogs.


I understand, I just don't like it or agree with it. 

*sigh*

isn't this thread dead yet.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

"justdogs" I totally agree with you that having an experienced group of foundation dogs is the key to helping another dog that is new, that is having serious issues.. I'll always give 100% credit to my GSD group of several generations to what they could accomplish with defensive behaviors in a new dog, balance them and teach them the skills that these dogs were missing or just didn't trust anymore and what my solid foundation group always gave in teaching to a new generation puppy, that , that new pup would give back what they learned to other dogs in need in their life time. So I believe you, why it works for you in exactly the way you say it happens... So you do know that the majority of people don't have a group of foundation dogs to set the pace for a new dog , at the dogs level. And you should by all means pat yourself on your back for having a great group of dogs.. It's just not honest to tell people to just throw your dogs out there together that don't have the individual foundation skills and abilities and expect the same outcome that your dogs do for you.. I personally don't set people and their dogs up for failure, and I am always heartbroken to have to put a dog back together that never should of been set up to fail in the first place.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I am confused about your comments Justdogs. First you say you don't let resource guarders in your house. But your dogs are clearly resource guarding from you. They growl at you when you try to take away a bone, that is resource guarding. Just because they don't bite you or snap at you doesn't make it any less true. Sure it may be a less severe form of it but it still is true to the definition.

People who work on resource guarding or try to prevent it from the beginning can foster dogs who are happy to have their bones/high value items taken away by their owners because they know they will be getting something even better in return. These dogs won't even lift a lip if you tried to take something from them. After you've trained with a trade up reward you can vary the reward and gradually fade it so that you aren't rewarding every time but the dog continues to be okay with it because you have built up the positive association.

As for feeding dogs together, dogs who feel they need to protect their food, even with just a glance or a soft growl are stressed because they are in a state of fear or anxiety. You are lucky to have dogs who will tolerate each other and not over correct another dog. Some dogs would be in a fight over the food instantly, especially the breeds known for DA. 

I try to build my relationship with my dog around trust. He can trust that I wont hurt him, that I wont take his things away without reason or without a reward, that I will protect him and give him guidance when necessary. He doesn't need to fear me so I don't need to fear him. I don't need to show him that I am not afraid of his growling because he has no reason to growl at me.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If I had dogs that growled and snarled and lifted their lips at me every time I took an item away, I'd be listening to their communication rather than just being like "Ain't gonna bite ME cuz I say so!" and continuing to blithely ignore their obvious stress. 

As for saying that growling cannot be scary because it is communication, well, if a person is yelling a verbal threat at me and shaking their fist or waving a weapon, the fact that they are "communicating" with me means jack. It it still scary and I still need to recognize the threat and deal with it appropriately. A dog that is growling (yelling) and snarling (showing a weapon) is communicating a _potential_ threat. I'm not talking about grumbles, I'm talking serious "I mean business" growls

The newer the dog, the greater the unknown potential to carry through with that threat and the more important it is to diffuse the situation i.e. reduce the stress on the dog, provide a better alternative action just like de-escalating a tense situation with an angry person.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Shell said:


> As for saying that growling cannot be scary because it is communication, well, if a person is yelling a verbal threat at me and shaking their fist or waving a weapon, the fact that they are "communicating" with me means jack. It it still scary and I still need to recognize the threat and deal with it appropriately. A dog that is growling (yelling) and snarling (showing a weapon) is communicating a _potential_ threat. I'm not talking about grumbles, I'm talking serious "I mean business" growls


 Absolutely this! I mean, from my perspective, with Caeda's one moment of real guarding with the bone, at 5 months or so old, our cute fuzzy little darling sounded like Cujo, a real, honest "I mean business" snarling. I dunno, first time you hear that out of your dog it kind of brings the whole perspective that we may all in theory understand, but in fact tend to forget....it is an animal, with teeth that has the capacity to threaten (and in the case of Caeda, she threatened me), and if pushed may be violent. If it isn't at least a little shocking the first time you hear it, then you've been growled at too many times lol. I'd never seen serious guarding before. We did end up taking it from her, we used welding gloves...heh....On the up side of the whole scenario we had, she had ample opportunity to bite us when we were taking it, and she didn't....she just told us she didn't like it. We set up better scenarios later on, with lower value stuff, and worked up to higher eventually to deal with it, and it went fine, she has no problems now (not to say that she isn't occasionally reluctant to give something that is valuable....but she hasn't gone "Cujo" since). 

There is another aspect to the "scariness" issue. The whole "how big is this problem" and "can we fix it", it is daunting, and all of the possible things that could go wrong with a dog that RGs pop into the head. I think to anyone facing it that is (and probably should be) a little scary.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shell said:


> If I had dogs that growled and snarled and lifted their lips at me every time I took an item away, I'd be listening to their communication rather than just being like "Ain't gonna bite ME cuz I say so!" and continuing to blithely ignore their obvious stress.
> 
> As for saying that growling cannot be scary because it is communication, well, if a person is yelling a verbal threat at me and shaking their fist or waving a weapon, the fact that they are "communicating" with me means jack. It it still scary and I still need to recognize the threat and deal with it appropriately. A dog that is growling (yelling) and snarling (showing a weapon) is communicating a _potential_ threat. I'm not talking about grumbles, I'm talking serious "I mean business" growls
> 
> The newer the dog, the greater the unknown potential to carry through with that threat and the more important it is to diffuse the situation i.e. reduce the stress on the dog, provide a better alternative action just like de-escalating a tense situation with an angry person.


Yes it is scary, the situation is scary, if doesn't mean, as Justdogs said that we are terrified of our dogs just rcsuse a RG situation scares us. I have a strong suspicon that Justdogs is of the same method as a certain celeb dog trainer with brilliant teeth 

This thread is very entertaining


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

A growling dog is scary. The whole growling display is meant to scare you, it is a warning, the dog is scared or uncomfortable with what is going on and wants you to know it, it wants to warn you that if you don't stop it will have to take action (ie. biting). I think it's perfectly normal and okay to be afraid of a growling dog, that is a natural response. By not continuing with whatever action you were taking you are respecting the dogs boundaries. BUT then you also take it as a cue that there is something you need to work on. You start building or rebuilding trust in that situation by trading up and/or creating positive associations with whatever action you were taking. With time and training the dog will no longer be afraid and you wont need to be afraid of their growling because they wont be growling anymore. It's not about showing the dog who is boss but rather helping them to work through their fears. I think most people here are owners who work through resource guarding issues with their dogs so it is no longer an issue, rather than ignoring it. While feeding separately is a management tool that can help stop issues before they start.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Gally said:


> A growling dog is scary. The whole growling display is meant to scare you, it is a warning, the dog is scared or uncomfortable with what is going on and wants you to know it, it wants to warn you that if you don't stop it will have to take action (ie. biting). I think it's perfectly normal and okay to be afraid of a growling dog, that is a natural response. By not continuing with whatever action you were taking you are respecting the dogs boundaries. BUT then you also take it as a cue that there is something you need to work on. You start building or rebuilding trust in that situation by trading up and/or creating positive associations with whatever action you were taking. With time and training the dog will no longer be afraid and you wont need to be afraid of their growling because they wont be growling anymore. It's not about showing the dog who is boss but rather helping them to work through their fears. I think most people here are owners who work through resource guarding issues with their dogs so it is no longer an issue, rather than ignoring it. While feeding separately is a management tool that can help stop issues before they start.


agreed (too short)


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<< So I believe you, why it works for you in exactly the way you say it happens... So you do know that the majority of people don't have a group of foundation dogs to set the pace for a new dog , at the dogs level. And you should by all means pat yourself on your back for having a great group of dogs.. It's just not honest to tell people to just throw your dogs out there together that don't have the individual foundation skills and abilities and expect the same outcome that your dogs do for you.. I personally don't set people and their dogs up for failure, and I am always heartbroken to have to put a dog back together that never should of been set up to fail in the first place. >>

PatriciafromCO, thank you at least for the acknowledgement. I appreciate the fact you understand. But I do take issue that I'm not being honest. I've worked hard on having the foundation I have...it wasn't simply placed in my lap. If there is a problem in the foundation...then of course that needs work...and I've certainly done that work. If one if afraid of their dogs, if one doesn't trust putting their dogs together for a meal...I am certainly not telling them to just throw them all together. I'm merely saying it is possible, and moreso I haven't always dealt with "balanced" dogs and I never said to just "throw" them together...I guess I assumed certain behavior assessment would ensue and dealt with prior to just "throwing them together." More on that later.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Justdogs said:


> << So I believe you, why it works for you in exactly the way you say it happens... *So you do know that the majority of people don't have a group of foundation dogs to set the pace for a new dog* , at the dogs level. And you should by all means pat yourself on your back for having a great group of dogs.. It's just not honest to tell people to just throw your dogs out there together that don't have the individual foundation skills and abilities and expect the same outcome that your dogs do for you.. I personally don't set people and their dogs up for failure, and I am always heartbroken to have to put a dog back together that never should of been set up to fail in the first place. >>
> 
> PatriciafromCO, thank you at least for the acknowledgement. I appreciate the fact you understand. But I do take issue that I'm not being honest. I've worked hard on having the foundation I have...it wasn't simply placed in my lap. If there is a problem in the foundation...then of course that needs work...and I've certainly done that work. If one if afraid of their dogs, if one doesn't trust putting their dogs together for a meal...I am certainly not telling them to just throw them all together. I'm merely saying it is possible, and moreso I haven't always dealt with "balanced" dogs and I never said to just "throw" them together...I guess I assumed certain behavior assessment would ensue and dealt with prior to just "throwing them together." More on that later.


am sorry that you over read it for a negative when I was agreeing and complimenting your experiences in the dogs.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<I am confused about your comments Justdogs. First you say you don't let resource guarders in your house. But your dogs are clearly resource guarding from you. They growl at you when you try to take away a bone, that is resource guarding. Just because they don't bite you or snap at you doesn't make it any less true. Sure it may be a less severe form of it but it still is true to the definition.>>


I'm glad you wrote that, Gally...and maybe what you wrote above is the source of confusion. People who write about resource guarding are using that as an excuse to define dogs which I guess are allowed to keep what they have, or who are deemed unsafe around other dogs or people, or at the heart of it...allowed to continue to scare people. I could care less that my dogs are communicating to me that they don't want me to take away a bone, or lift a food bowl away from them if I have forgotten a medication. I don't correct them for communicating with me. They know, because of the hundreds of other ways I deal with my dogs...that I'm GOING to take that bone. I actually am quite light-hearted when I hear them protest....they know I know. I think you are wrong...my dog, despite whatever verbal and physical gymnastics they exhibit, still allow me to take the bone. From everything I've previously read from other people....dogs labeled as "resource guarders" are allowed to keep what they have, and are actually empowered because as a "problem" because people seem to be afraid of their dogs. 

You say: <<People who work on resource guarding or try to prevent it from the beginning can foster dogs who are happy to have their bones/high value items taken away by their owners because they know they will be getting something even better in return. These dogs won't even lift a lip if you tried to take something from them. After you've trained with a trade up reward you can vary the reward and gradually fade it so that you aren't rewarding every time but the dog continues to be okay with it because you have built up the positive association.>>

That all sounds REALLY nice. And believe me...at one point in my life, I've employed this same philosophy...UNTIL the time came when my dog decided the trade off WASN'T better than what he/she already had. If you haven't experienced that yet...doesn't mean you won't. What happens, even after endless repetitions of "the trading game" when that ONE time happens when your dog DOESN'T want to trade? What happens when you want to take away a decaying carcass your dog is in love with that he finds along the road, and he doesn't want to "trade" with the treats you brought along on that walk? What do you do when your dog growls at you because you don't want him to eat the three day old festering possum even when you want to trade him with a hot dog? Are you afraid of that growl? Are you surprised because, gosh...in training he always played the "trading game!" I know, because I have taken such a thing away from my dog that despite whatever pittance I have for trade that he/she rejects, I can wrench from my dogs mouth something I don't want him/her to have....despite verbal and visual protestations, and they KNOW I am not afraid to do so. That is why, despite your thinking just because my dogs verbalize their feelings, that they AREN'T resource guarders (in the sense you think they are) because I can take things away from them....physically take them from their mouths without fear of being bitten. So no...I don't consider my dogs resource guarders based on your definition.

More on the "stress" thing"


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<If I had dogs that growled and snarled and lifted their lips at me every time I took an item away, I'd be listening to their communication rather than just being like "Ain't gonna bite ME cuz I say so!" and continuing to blithely ignore their obvious stress. >>

Well, first of all...I never said "every time"...again...I hate agenda building through true dishonesty. Really, what is this "stress" thing? How my dogs live together is actually LESS stressful. They HAVE LET IT GO...no one dog has "issues" of resource guarding....they get raw meaty bones on a regular basis...they are all happy to get that. They aren't sequestered in crates to enjoy them...they eat enjoy them as a pack. I don't "bug" them...I don't constantly "test" them...but when I see something unsafe...when I see a bone whittled down to a "danger" I am quite confident that while my dogs might protest...I can and will take the "nub" of that bone away from him/her. Well...if one says that is stress...fine...but HOW that stress manifests is actually important. So if in a day's time, or a weeks time, we stress our dogs and how they behave under "stress" is quite important. Are we to be afraid of people under stress? Isn't how people react to stress how we value people? I have three dogs who eat side by side, who enjoy raw meaty bones side by side...totally flaked out right now in front of me. My boy LOVES to play the "toy" game...he LOVES to verbalize...he growls and snarls AS HE PRESENTS me with his prized toy...and I act like I am a little afraid...he's a bit of a weeney...I let him win tug games...he loves "growling" at me...it is great fun. If he were a super confident brat...our play would be very different. 

GreaterSwiss says: << Absolutely this! I mean, from my perspective, with Caeda's one moment of real guarding with the bone, at 5 months or so old, our cute fuzzy little darling sounded like Cujo, a real, honest "I mean business" snarling. I dunno, first time you hear that out of your dog it kind of brings the whole perspective that we may all in theory understand, but in fact tend to forget....it is an animal, with teeth that has the capacity to threaten (and in the case of Caeda, she threatened me), and if pushed may be violent>>

This statement actually saddens me...and it saddened me the first time she talked about it. A five/six month old puppy verbalizing? You betcha...she was testing you. And you failed the test. She succeeded in intimidating you. You didn't see your job as a leader of this PUPPY...you saw an ANIMAL..in your words, with teeth and the capacity to be violent. At any given time my adult dogs sound like Cujo...it is our communication...they know I don't fear it...and I've never suppressed it...even with light-hearted game play, they sound totally ferocious....I can reach down my dog's throat to retrieve something they swallowed that I didn't want them to...they aren't going to bite me. My dogs hate having their nails done..they will protest and fight, but they know it is going to happen. I am NOT afraid of my dogs...and in fact they AREN'T stressed because they have no need to wonder when and how they might be violent toward me. 

If one actually understood dogs...they would know stressed dogs don't eat well...and my dogs eat just fine right next to each other. Yep for sure...it can sometimes be a little stressful when a new dog joins the fray...but my dogs know I'll fix issues, so they don't have to...even if I have to remind them once or twice in the beginning...so again...LESS stress. It is important for dogs to know HOW to deal with stress, rather than always avoid it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Justdogs said:


> If one actually understood dogs...they would know stressed dogs don't eat well...and my dogs eat just fine right next to each other. Yep for sure...it can sometimes be a little stressful when a new dog joins the fray...*but my dogs know I'll fix issues, so they don't have to.*..even if I have to remind them once or twice in the beginning...so again...LESS stress. It is important for dogs to know HOW to deal with stress, rather than always avoid it.


Dogs are not capable of this type of reasoning....


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<Dogs are not capable of this type of reasoning.... >>

It is not a reasoning issue, it is a behavioral issue.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<Dogs are not capable of this type of reasoning.... >>
> 
> It is not a reasoning issue, it is a behavioral issue.


Thinking "My person will fix this problem, so I don't need to address it" is reasoning.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

You either haven't read the totality of what I have written, or chosen to take a few things out of context. Either way....I have four large dogs of a strong-willed breed that eat without panic, without undo rushing, without STRESS, and they eat inches apart in the kitchen where I prepare their food....and THAT isn't quick...because I'm always giving them something new, something really cool....they are standing with me with anticipation because they KNOW it is not just boring old kibble...there are no fights during THAT time, and there are no fights when they eat. Whether or not I you think I was prescribing reasoning to my dogs...doesn't really matter. What matters to me is HOW THEY BEHAVE. Particularly when I've brought new dogs into the "line up" and if/when they finish first...I will correct them (and no, that doesn't mean hitting them or any other undo violence) if they go to bother another dog eating... but it could mean a harsh word or hand on their neck. 

In any event...because of this...over time, my dogs DO know I am going to intervene....at least with NEW dog. With established dogs...and they get nosy..I let the dogs growl and communicate. It ALWAYS ends there because I know my established dogs understand the language. With new dogs....I can't know that. Some dogs are very unaware of basic dog etiquette/communication....and that is why and WHEN I intervene (and correct the OFFENDING DOG...not the one that growled)...and yes, I believe my established dogs DO understand that. It is about being confident not in the relationship with your own dogs, but understanding dogs in general...you put it in very simplistic terms and yes it will sound absurd because most people don't even understand backing up behaviors. It is quite sad.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Justdogs said:


> <<Dogs are not capable of this type of reasoning.... >>
> 
> It is not a reasoning issue, it is a behavioral issue.


You can twist it any way you want...

What you described is reasoning. And dogs are not capable of that type of forward thinking.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Justdogs said:


> In any event...because of this...over time, my dogs DO know I am going to intervene....at least with NEW dog.


No they don't.... End of story....

You can twist it all you want... But your dogs DO NOT know you are going to intervene with a new dog....


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Interesting...so just went back several pages to when Johnny Bandit began chiming in. He seems really big into the whole PROOFING thing and the only way you are ever assured that you can take something away from a dog is through training with proofing. Heck...I'm a big proponent of training and proofing when it comes to training a dog specific commands and such (like sit and stay and retrieve and such). And he purports this with food and eating, etc... and this is simply where I disagree and MY experiences are very different. He has a particular "training" state of mind, thus he seems to fail to understand or recognize the actual mind of a dog. I've never had to "proof" my dogs to take anything away from them. I don't need to train or proof them to eat along side other dogs. 

I'm not "twisting" things as you say above....I've NEVER had to "proof" my dogs concerning taking things away. I just do it. When I give them raw meaty bones, and I notice they are chewed down to a certain-sized nub that I find dangerous should they want to swallow such a big piece, I merely take it away from them without fear. If they growl at me while I am doing so (which is maybe 50% of the time) I could care less. If they clamp down on the damn thing and I have to wrench it from their mouth, that is fine as well....I've NEVER had fear that they are going to BITE me because of it, and they never have....not in almost 40 years of owning dogs. 

It is the same reason I've had as many as seven 70-90 lb dogs eat side by side at once peacefully (a concept one of your earlier posts said was "stupidity") because I didn't "train" them to do this...they just DO it. For sure...there have been countless times over the years when I've needed to retrieve a bowl from a dog, and I simply retrieve a bowl from a dog, mid-meal, WITHOUT FEAR of being bitten, and without ever having PROOFED this in a training atmosphere. 

It is interesting....while I used to be very involved with training and competition obedience...in the last 10 years, I haven't done a darned thing regarding actual/formal training. Heck...my dogs don't even sit on command. But yet, they don't jump on people, they don't fight with each other, they allow me to take things away from them. I know dogs who have OTCH titles that are absolutely HORRIBLE to actually live with....and some of those dogs, the best "trained" dogs will absolutely "bit the hand that feeds them." It is not about training or "proofing." It IS about a state of mind, it IS about a dog being capable of understanding the basic structure of who is in charge. It is sad that you think dogs are not capable of understanding certain things. All I know is that over many, many years, my dogs understand things your dogs obviously don't. So all I can say...YOU can twist it all you want....just because you don't understand your dogs or dogs in general, doesn't mean my dogs do exactly as my interpretation says they do. If my dogs DIDN'T know it was my job to intervene, I would have dealt with a LOT of bloodshed over the years while feeding, and in fact, I have dealt with NO bloodshed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Justdogs said:


> Interesting...so just went back several pages to when Johnny Bandit began chiming in. He seems really big into the whole PROOFING thing and the only way you are ever assured that you can take something away from a dog is through training with proofing. Heck...I'm a big proponent of training and proofing when it comes to training a dog specific commands and such (like sit and stay and retrieve and such). And he purports this with food and eating, etc... and this is simply where I disagree and MY experiences are very different. He has a particular "training" state of mind, thus he seems to fail to understand or recognize the actual mind of a dog. I've never had to "proof" my dogs to take anything away from them. I don't need to train or proof them to eat along side other dogs.
> 
> I'm not "twisting" things as you say above....I've NEVER had to "proof" my dogs concerning taking things away. I just do it. When I give them raw meaty bones, and I notice they are chewed down to a certain-sized nub that I find dangerous should they want to swallow such a big piece, I merely take it away from them without fear. If they growl at me while I am doing so (which is maybe 50% of the time) I could care less. If they clamp down on the damn thing and I have to wrench it from their mouth, that is fine as well....I've NEVER had fear that they are going to BITE me because of it, and they never have....not in almost 40 years of owning dogs.
> 
> ...



LOL you are twisting.... And you proof or you do not know. IF you are taking things away from your dogs, you are proofing that... Regardless of what you you choose to say about it.

Feeding dogs next to each other is not someone you would proof. You really should not be doing it all.....

As for this...


> It IS about a state of mind, it IS about a dog being capable of understanding the basic structure of who is in charge.


This statement no way translates into the dogs "knowing you will take care of a problem" That is a reasoning skill and forward thinking. 
It is a very basic fact, dogs think about what is happening now, and react to it. A dog is not going to let something another dog is doing go, because it "knows" you are going to take care of it... It is going to react in that instant and moment....

And of course it is about training.... But proofing is the vehicle you use to know your are where you need to be in training. And there are all sorts of way to proof a dog on a behavior, command, etc. Most folks, you included usually do know realize they are proofing. 

I have twisted nothing.... As for not understanding dogs.... That would be you..... You do not even grasp They basics of training....

AS


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You can twist it any way you want...
> 
> What you described is reasoning. And dogs are not capable of that type of forward thinking.


Semantics, semantics, semantics.
Dogs _are _capable of forming expectations. Mine will awaken from deep sleep when they hear me pick up the car keys.
Human language doesn't describe what goes on in a dog's mind . . . because we don't think like dogs do and we don't really know what goes on in a dog's mind. Justdogs saying "my dogs know" is not saying they "know" with the same sort of reasoning a human might know something . . . just that they have formed an associative expectation. It's very hard to discuss dog thought processes without unintended anthropromorphism. I don't even know if the word "thought" is strictly applicable . . . what what other word can I use?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sandgrubber said:


> Semantics, semantics, semantics.
> Dogs _are _capable of forming expectations. Mine will awaken from deep sleep when they hear me pick up the car keys.
> Human language doesn't describe what goes on in a dog's mind . . . because we don't think like dogs do and we don't really know what goes on in a dog's mind. Justdogs saying "my dogs know" is not saying they "know" with the same sort of reasoning a human might know something . . . just that they have formed an associative expectation. It's very hard to discuss dog thought processes without unintended anthropromorphism. I don't even know if the word "thought" is strictly applicable . . . what what other word can I use?


Yes dogs are quite capable of forming expectations. 

But there are no semantics and that is not what the other poster is saying...

If a group of dogs are together, and a new dog joins the group or a long time member of the group is for that matter..... Does something to provoke, antagonize, upset, pester, etc one of the other dogs. I is not going to stop and say, well our ower is going to deal with that. It is going to react, instantly. The reasoning ability is just not there and dogs do not think that way.


Though in a way I could see how someone might think they are seeing that. Because depending on the temperaments involved you could very will see a passive response from the dog being bothered. And that could appear like the dog is reasoning that the owner will take care of it... But it is not the case. 


For example.... You are feeding the dogs together. One dog moves in and starts eating from another dogs bowl. The dog whose bowl just got invaded is going to react in one of two ways. If he is a strong temperament, he is going to defend his bowl. Most likely in an aggressive manner.... If he is of a softer temperament than the other dog he is going to avoid confrontation by passively backing off and relinquishing the food to the other dog. That passive response could appear that the dog knows the owner is going to take care of it... But it is not.... It is simply a soft dog yielding to a stronger dog to avoid confrontation.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<Feeding dogs next to each other is not someone you would proof. You really should not be doing it all. i have twisted nothing.... As for not understanding dogs.... That would be you..... You do not even grasp They basics of training....>>

I find it a bit amusing you would tell someone they shouldn't be doing it at all when I have done it for over 30 years....with a variety of number of dogs...with new dogs added to old, with strange dogs added to new....of course I don't "proof" this...I don't need to. 

But what I find even MORE amusing, and frankly more telling...is that you declare that I don't even grasp the basics of training. The reason this is amusing to me, is that the fact my dogs all eat together the way they do has NOTHING to do with training. The fact that many of my dogs have advanced obedience titles in organized sports, and they perform those intricate behaviors with enthusiasm has EVERYTHING to do with training. I know how to train my dogs to do intricate behaviors such as the directed retrieve, and scent discrimination, heel on and off leash...do sit and down stays either in sight or out of sight...I can "train" them to do anything. I've never NEEDED to train them to eat next to each other, thus...don't have to "proof" that. 

Living with dogs successfully isn't always about "training" them. It is about how they view you and you view them. It is about your respecting them as a species. I don't need to "train" my dogs not to crowd me at the door when I am about to open it. Simply based on how we live together, they know me and know by my slightest hesitation or a look that they need to back off on whatever instinct they could have engaged in. They watch us. It is why such a forum exists that is devoted to the domesticated dog. 

I've proven I understand training. I've never questioned that you understand it. But living with dogs isn't about 100% training...it IS about their knowing through everyday living what is and isn't acceptable, and this is where I will say that you don't get it. Obviously you will deny that because obviously you think you have to "train" your dogs for every minute aspect of their lives, thus you'll never understand dogs in general. From other threads...you obviously think of dogs as simply tools for your other amusements. I think that is sad...but maybe one day you'll give your dogs more credit.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Justdogs said:


> <<Feeding dogs next to each other is not someone you would proof. You really should not be doing it all. i have twisted nothing.... As for not understanding dogs.... That would be you..... You do not even grasp They basics of training....>>
> 
> I find it a bit amusing you would tell someone they shouldn't be doing it at all when I have done it for over 30 years....with a variety of number of dogs...with new dogs added to old, with strange dogs added to new....of course I don't "proof" this...I don't need to.
> 
> ...


I've warned you once in the other thread, but I'm warning you here as well. I've been pretty easy going about this so far, but enough is enough. The other posters here have managed to disagree with you in a respectful manner, and you are expected to do the same. Disagree all you want, but do it respectfully. The veiled insults and condescending comments are unnecessary, and won't be tolerated any longer.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> ...it IS about their knowing through everyday living what is and isn't acceptable...


You ARE training them through your daily interactions, you're just not calling it that.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Justdogs said:


> <<Feeding dogs next to each other is not someone you would proof. You really should not be doing it all. i have twisted nothing.... As for not understanding dogs.... That would be you..... You do not even grasp They basics of training....>>
> 
> I find it a bit amusing you would tell someone they shouldn't be doing it at all when I have done it for over 30 years....with a variety of number of dogs...with new dogs added to old, with strange dogs added to new....of course I don't "proof" this...I don't need to.
> 
> ...


Three simple points.... I have NEVER said at any time everything was about training. I speak of managing dogsall the time. IF you had been around here long you would know that. 

And you are training the behaviors you describe. You are just calling it something else. 

And that you say you have been doing it for 30 years does not make it a good idea. If you have not had a serious fight that is Anecdotal. It does not mean if others follow your advice, they will have the same luck you have. And if you have not had a fight it is combination of very soft dogs and LUCK. And IF you have not had a fight, it does not mean you have not stressed or impacted your dogs in other ways. Frankly a little squabble is often less healthy than significant stress repeated on a daily basis. It has surely taken a toll on your softer dogs. Whether you would see that or admit it is another matter.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Justdogs said:


> <<Feeding dogs next to each other is not someone you would proof. You really should not be doing it all. i have twisted nothing.... As for not understanding dogs.... That would be you..... You do not even grasp They basics of training....>>
> 
> I find it a bit amusing you would tell someone they shouldn't be doing it at all when I have done it for over 30 years....with a variety of number of dogs...with new dogs added to old, with strange dogs added to new....of course I don't "proof" this...I don't need to.
> 
> ...


I will add this as well.... They are your dogs and you are free to do as you please with them. And I wholeheartedly support that. 
But your affirmations that it is no big deal, etc you have been doing it 30 years.....

Your cavalier attitude about the entire thing IS going to get someone hurt. Or their dogs, probably both.... You are likely going to be hurt before it is said and done as well.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Your cavalier attitude about the entire thing IS going to get someone hurt. Or their dogs, probably both.... You are likely going to be hurt before it is said and done as well.


Thank you for saying this JB....my understanding of things, and my minimal experience was telling me this, but I certainly don't have the years of experience under my belt to make this assertion, or refute any of the offhanded statements myself with any authority. I'm glad you pointed this out, at least for any who may stumble across this thread in the future. For his sake and his dogs though I hope he continues to be lucky.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Greater Swiss said:


> Thank you for saying this JB....my understanding of things, and my minimal experience was telling me this, but I certainly don't have the years of experience under my belt to make this assertion, or refute any of the offhanded statements myself with any authority. I'm glad you pointed this out, at least for any who may stumble across this thread in the future. For his sake and his dogs though I hope he continues to be lucky.


And there is a point.... I can and have fed all of my dogs in very close proximity. and I can do it successfully if I stand there and watch them. Merlin and the Hell Bitch are not likely to get stressed about it. But they might fight if I was not attentive. And BOTH could easily force Keely off her food without ever making a move. All it would take is a certain look. When I have done it, Keely eats FAR too fast... She is obviously worried that the other dogs are going to push her off her food .

But other than doing it to simply prove I can, what is the point? With the dogs I have now, I can feed one outside, one in their crate and Merlin in the kitchen.. Feeding time is chore time for me. I feed raw and everything requires prep. I am feeding seven animals daily. I have a routine. Get the dogs fed, feed the cats (all in separate rooms, Clean and fill the water bowls that are scattered out. Feed and change the parrot's water. etc.

So feeding the way I do, everyone is relaxed. No one feels the need to challenge or fears being challenged. 


When I am in hotels etc. Everyone eats in their crate. They are in site but all seem to know they are secure. 

The point is... Just because you can, does not mean you should. No point in risking it.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

All it takes is one dropped kibble grenade and all heck can break out. Even dogs that were not part of the squabble will pig pile in to join the fight. I will have to say I have been lucky myself. I do feed several dogs by themselves because some have pills added to the food and others require a special diet. I also feed separate because I want to know if a dog is off of its feed. Now there is a group of dogs that I will feed as a group but not like this. I would never suggest that owners feed their dogs like this





.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Foxhounds are born and raised as a pack, a lot different than your ordinary dogs. I worked with Foxhounds with a Hunt Club I belonged to and they are very aware of what a whip is. Fighting is not allowed and they pay for it if they do fight. I can guarantee if any of those hounds decided to fight they would feel that whip.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kyllobernese said:


> Foxhounds are born and raised as a pack, a lot different than your ordinary dogs. I worked with Foxhounds with a Hunt Club I belonged to and they are very aware of what a whip is. Fighting is not allowed and they pay for it if they do fight. I can guarantee if any of those hounds decided to fight they would feel that whip.


And, honestly, foxhounds and beagles are very, very rarely inclined toward any sort of dog aggression or resource guarding and those used for hunting both feel that whip and get culled out of breeding programs faster than you can spit because of the way they hunt. You couldn't MAKE me do that, for a number of reasons, with any breed dog but I'm not surprised dogs in hunting packs and born, bred, and raised to the job do.

(And note, even in that video? A lot of dogs are grabbing their food and LEAVING the swarm)


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

The dog that attacked Xena when she was 4 months old attacked her over a piece of asparagus :/ I didn't know then but know now she has a bad habit of walking up to other dogs and taking whatever they have right out of their mouth. Eko tolerates it but I always tell her no and give it back to him. They eat in separate parts of the kitchen but by the time they're done they've pushed their bowls together and then they lick each other's bowl clean. I think they are okay with it because they know that there's plenty of food.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

That was one of my group training focus,, "flying food" never failed when I was cutting up the raw meal portions to store and freeze something would go flying off the counter and on to the floor.. so I did group flying food training... (advance level) basic stay, leave it ,, throw food on the ground, then jack pot reward everyone.. "Maybe they learned there is more food in my hand then the small piece of food on the ground" but it was humorous to me every time to see a group of dogs huddled around the kitchen counter and a piece of meat fly off real life accidentally and hit the floor and every ones heads would look down at the food on the floor no one going for it, then look back up at me where I did have a huge pile of pre cut meat ready to hand out to everyone..

why do something so silly ???? I was baby sitting my neighbors GSD, it was her second time for me to be watching her, good nature d girl, not a lot of training, neighbor just got her from the pound and had had some dog fights at her home with her and her dogs (not really dog fights, but physical spats), first time at my house was only 3 days so I kept her on the other side of the baby gate the entire time from my group and did a one on one daily routine with her.. Nothing wrong with her ( she so full of herself which I love in a GSD), it was her first time in our house and with me.. And she didn't have any foundation for a 3 year old to rely on.. She did great safe and sound back to her owner... 

Second time watching her again I did use the baby gate area, building on what we did before to know she was fine in the group outside the baby gate doing group food games with her.. she was having house time while I was doing the meal prep.. and a piece of food flew off the counter and on to the floor... Everyone of my guys froze.................... Misha dove for the food on the floor, then paused , then sat back up with the group and looked side to side, then back up at me.. never eating the treat on the floor... I couldn't stop laughing wondering what went through her head... about that food on the floor and why she didn't take it... ????? it was funny to me and still is today thinking about that moment and her behavior,... I did jack pot everyone to include Misha... I dearly love my group of GSD's, and miss them with all my heart, they made so much possible to achieve for other dogs.. always 100% credit to them...


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Kyllobernese said:


> Foxhounds are born and raised as a pack, a lot different than your ordinary dogs. I worked with Foxhounds with a Hunt Club I belonged to and they are very aware of what a whip is. Fighting is not allowed and they pay for it if they do fight. I can guarantee if any of those hounds decided to fight they would feel that whip.


yes and that guy knows dogs. I can just see some dog owners doing that and fainting. Like I said I would never suggest to a dog owner and this is how you feed them, using that video as an example. I would only suggest this method if I knew that person was dog savvy. 

I would not like to see that food bill for a month!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> (And note, even in that video? A lot of dogs are grabbing their food and LEAVING the swarm)


Yes, and those particular dogs are being given the CHOICE to MOVE AWAY and eat their food where THEY choose to. Sort of natural, similar to how it would be if they were in the wild. Pressure relief is there if need be.

Unlike when house dogs have NO CHOICE but to eat from bowls set down arbitrarily, artificially, and very close to each other, in a stationary or 'fixed' spot which the humans dictate. Pressure relief is unavailable even if desired, at least not in a peaceable manner. In other words - stress. Stress that COULD easily be mitigated by adding significant space between bowls.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I will add this as well.... They are your dogs and you are free to do as you please with them. And I wholeheartedly support that.
> But your affirmations that it is no big deal, etc you have been doing it 30 years.....
> 
> Your cavalier attitude about the entire thing IS going to get someone hurt. Or their dogs, probably both.... You are likely going to be hurt before it is said and done as well.


This, x2 (too short)


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