# Is it OK for breeders to ask different prices for individual puppies?



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I was wondering about this. Several reasons; 

- I know that most breeders here ask the same for each puppy, whether male/female, good looking or not. Exceptions can be made for pups with a known health issue. 

- Yesterday, I learned that it common for Chihuahua breeders here to ask more for puppies with 'rare' colors. The Dutch forum I am on was all over a topic where someone said they paid more for a rare 'lavender' colored Chihuahua puppy and it turned out to be beige and that person was slandering the breeder's name. Anyhow, I wasn't aware that breeders would put a different pricetag on a puppy based on its coloring. 

- I only learned about show quality/pet quality puppies when I started looking around on foreign breeder's websites. I especially remember reading about Shiloh Shepherds and noticed that there were significant price differences between male/female, show quality/pet quality, and amount of outcross. Sometimes the price difference was more than 1000 dollars(!).

Anyway, what my question comes down to is basically the topic title. Is it OK for breeders to ask different prices for their puppies? 

In my opinion, I wouldn't think so, unless a puppy has a known health issue. Someone on the Dutch forum said it felt like a sales tactic, a way to make more money off the pups, and that it felt like something a puppy mill would do. ("this puppy is EXTRA special, so you have to pay more") 

Personally, I wouldn't pay more for a 'special' color and I wouldn't buy from a breeder that asked higher prices for popular colors. 
I don't understand why there would be a price difference between males and females. 
The pet quality/show quality thing isn't common here either, like I said above, breeders ask the same price for each puppy. But since I doubt that a puppy's show quality can be seen at 8 weeks, it wouldn't feel fair to me to ask different prices based on pet/show quality. 

But what I'm curious about: what's your opinion on this matter?


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm not very educated on dog breeders' practices, as I get my dogs from shelters. But, I don't see why a breeder couldn't charge more for one puppy than another, for any reason at all. Selling anything is a "what the market will bear" exercise. If they price a puppy to high, no one will buy it. If someone is willing to pay a particular price, that's what the item is "worth". 

The only time I don't agree with letting the market set prices is in the case of "price gouging"...there is a shortage of a necessity and sellers mark up the price to unreasonable levels to take advantage of it. i.e., gasoline in the NY/Northern NJ area after Hurricane Sandy. That won't happen with puppies because no one "needs" a purebred puppy and certainly not a purebred puppy of a certain color. If a buyer thinks the breeder is charging too much, they have the option of just not buying a puppy from them.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

With my breed (malinois) male work quality are more expensive than the rest. LE usually wants males, and departments are charged more for dogs than say a volunteer team, or a pet only quality dog. Department dogs make money, and LE have grants and funding to purchase dogs. Volunteer groups spend thousands on training and traveling, so I try to keep initial price low or donate a pup. If for some reason a dog isn't the best candidate to work, it is appropriately placed in a sport or active pet home, for a low price or free depending on the circumstances.

I don't factor color into a price at all. A good dog is a good color. Anyone buying a working dog based on color won't get one from me. I don't mind if someone prefers a sable over a fawn, if the quality is the same.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

juliemule said:


> A good dog is a good color.


What's amusing to me is that a Malinois breeder on the Dutch forum said the exact same thing.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Actually, this isn't all that uncommon.

Gender aside, a breeder of show dogs will sometimes ask more for what they estimate to be a "show-quality" puppy than for a "pet-quality" pup from the same litter, since in many cases all the pups in a litter will not be of show-quality. 

With some breeds, certain colors or markings are more desired than others so some breeders will charge more for those even though the other colors/markings are within the breed standard. On the other hand, some breeders - especially those who breed for working ability or performance - adamantly won't change their prices based on colors or markings because they don't consider those to be significant. 

I would be careful, however, of a breeder who claims to be charging more for so-called rare colors or markings. Sometimes those are actually mismarks or unacceptable colors that fall outside the standard for that breed. A *reputable* breeder will tell you that before you buy the puppy. Those mismarks or off-colors can make excellent pets and perform just as well as the others, but they can't go into the conformation ring. And you should NOT pay more for them. You should know your breed before buying.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

As to the first reply, a breeder does have the right to charge whatever they want and of course something is only worth what someone is willing to pay BUT "rare" colors usually means mismark. Frankly I feel they should be charging LESS for these. It's a marketing scheme and while reputable breeders do sell pups I don't believe they see them as a commodity trying to obtain the highest dollar possible. 

To the OP it's ok when done right. Imo at least. I'd expect to pay more for a show / working quality prospect and less for a pet quality pup or pup being sold on pet contract. 
You can't 100% guarantee how a pup will turn out but a knowledgeable breeder can be pretty accurate when judging pups. (one DF breeders posted pics of a litter which they'd accessed the quality of and asked others to give it a go and test their accuracy) Structure is apparent in a young pup, though somethings change at times, there are others you could be fairly certain won't make it to the show ring. When it comes to working pups temperament and drives are also apparent when young, you can usually pick those who are most likely to succeed.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Also, I have never seen a completely equal litter. There are better pups and lesser pups within every one.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

I would expect a show quality pup to cost more than a pet quality. As far as color goes, I love boxers, and I would expect a correctly marked flashy pup to cost more than a plain colored pup, if both were equal in every other way.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

I have no problem with breeders charging different prices within a litter. Breeders who are breeding towards a breed standard or towards certain behavioral traits (herding, etc.) will notice tendencies early on of which pups may be most successful show dogs, working dogs, etc. In my breed, very flashy dogs (lots of white, bright copper) seems to do better in the ring. But I've oddly come to prefering the plainest dogs - minimal or no white, no copper. Should not be an issue in the breed ring, but it takes a lot of guts for the judge to put up the dog who looks or is marked differently. If someone wants quality, they should be willing to pay for quality. Now, I can get a pretty functional watch for under $20. That doesn't mean *I'm going to argue that a high end name brand watch should cost the same. Now if someone is charging more for "rare blue Aussies" or "rare golden Aussies" that's a clear red flag. The reason most colors are "rare" in most breeds is because those colors aren't recognized or are disqualified in that breed. So, the breeder is actually striving for and charging more for dogs who don't meet the standard.That would not be my choice.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Avie said:


> What's amusing to me is that a Malinois breeder on the Dutch forum said the exact same thing.


It's a very old saying. Originally about horses, I think.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Personally, I'm ok with a breeder charging more for a show or working quality pup and less for pets and mismarks. 

I don't feel the same about color though. Sure, flashy blue merles are highly desired and probably do better in the ring, but if that dog isn't otherwise a show prospect (maybe his conformation isn't great) then he should cost the same as his plainer siblings, IMO. Dogs should be matched based on the best home for them, not who is willing to pay more. In a litter where all are pet quality, for example, buyers' color preferences can be taken into account, but temperament matching is most important to me and I'd look for a breeder who prioritizes this.

Then again, this is easy for me to say since my breed only comes in one color and all patterns are acceptable under the standard (not sure if judges prefer one pattern over another though).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Pups sold on a show/breeding contract will almost always cost more than those sold on a pet (spay/neuter) contract. Nothing wrong with that at all!

I can see charging more for females when the pup's going into a show/breeding home. Females will produce full litters of pups for the breeder who purchases them, helping them continue on with their lines and hopefully get one or more keeper pups, plus pups to sell. Males are of course great, but most males aren't in demand as stud dogs, so will only be used a couple of times by the breeder. They won't help bring in as much money to cover the cost of their care and show career and breeding as a female will.

For a pet-quality pup that will be altered, gender shouldn't matter one bit.

As far as color goes, I don't believe that flashier dogs should cost more. Structure is (well, should be) much more important than color. In some breeds, though, if the less flashy dogs really have a much harder time winning in the ring, then I could maybe see a price difference for the flashy vs. plain dogs. I'd rather see the plain dogs discounted a bit than the flashy dogs priced higher, but that's essentially the same thing anyway, I suppose. 

Selling disqualifying colors or colors that are tied to health issues (like albino dobermans) for _more_ money because they're "rare" is completely wrong. 

With good breeders, I often see them selling pups of disqualifying colors or markings (like all-white Alaskan Klee Kai) cheaper. That's not necessary, though, as far as I'm concerned. A pet-quality pup is a pet-quality pup, regardless of color. Whether it's a disqualifying color or a gorgeous show-quality pup that ends up going as a pet instead, it's going to be altered and kept as a lovely companion, anyway.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Thank you for the responses so far! 

So it is possible for a breeder to determine whether a pup is likely to succeed in a certain area (show, work, etcetera). 

I wonder, what if a pup was sold as show quality and thus was more expensive than its pet quality siblings. Then the dog does not turn out as a good show dog. Can the buyer get back the money he paid extra? 

What if a pup is sold as having a specific color that made him more expensive than his regular colored, less expensive siblings. Then as the dog grows up, it turns out the dog does not have that specific color the buyer paid extra for. Can this buyer get back the money he paid extra? 

Since you pay extra money for a dog with specific traits, when the dog turns out not having those specific traits... Well, that would suck. Do these things happen often? And what would a breeder do in such a case?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

> So it is possible for a breeder to determine whether a pup is likely to succeed in a certain area (show, work, etcetera).


Yeah! Well, a breeder can get a good idea, anyway. Sometimes they'll hold a pup back and it won't end up developing the way they hoped, but most of the time, they can tell. An eight-week-old pup's structure is quite similar to the structure it will have as an adult... even though it will go through some ugly gangly stages in between!

Crystal's breeder always invites a bunch of other breeders (papillon and other breeds) over to her home when the pups are around eight weeks old to do a litter evaluation. Each breeder goes over each pup, writing down notes about what they think. They each rank the pups, and then they all discuss their opinions, and together decide on which pup is pick of the litter, which pups are show quality, and which should be sold as pets.

With her last litter, Crystal's breeder also had me take stacked pics of each of the show-quality pups, to help her see what the judge would see when the pup's standing on a table in front of them. 

There's a lot involved in choosing where each pup should end up!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie said:


> Thank you for the responses so far!
> 
> So it is possible for a breeder to determine whether a pup is likely to succeed in a certain area (show, work, etcetera).
> 
> ...


It's possible to some extent to determine if a pup is show quality. My breed has no color qualifications (so pet quality pups can't be ruled out based on color or markings), yet my breeder could easily tell which were obviously pet quality and which were possibly show. My pup was sold to me as being one of the nicest she'd seen in a long time, but if he doesn't show well, it won't be her fault - that's just want she could tell at 8 weeks. If someone paid more for that show pup I'm sure they wouldn't be pleased to end up with a dud, but I think it's understood that show quality at 8 weeks isn't a guarantee of anything. I specifically wanted a dog to use for obedience, but if Watson ends up being a dud for obedience it won't be my breeder's fault - based on his 7 week temperament test he seemed to be the best candidate. Now, all of the pups in her litter cost the same, so maybe a breeder who charges different amounts would write a rebate into the contract, but I think it's understood that you are taking your chances by getting that show quality pup before it has matured.

As for color, as far as I know there are no colors that can't be identified at 8 weeks, so I don't think it's possible to sell a pup as one color and have it end up as a different one.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> As for color, as far as I know there are no colors that can't be identified at 8 weeks, so I don't think it's possible to sell a pup as one color and have it end up as a different one.


That's what presumably happened in that topic I mentioned in my first post. Someone bought a Chihuahua, paid a lot for it because she wanted a specific color, and the dog turned out not to have that color. Now, whether the breeder she got her dog from was reputable or not is another question (that wasn't answered). Regardless, she was pissed at the breeder.


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## twittle (Nov 10, 2012)

I do not see anything wrong with this. I have seen it a number of times. Because people are willing to pay more for a dog that is of average size than one that is a runt.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie said:


> That's what presumably happened in that topic I mentioned in my first post. Someone bought a Chihuahua, paid a lot for it because she wanted a specific color, and the dog turned out not to have that color. Now, whether the breeder she got her dog from was reputable or not is another question (that wasn't answered). Regardless, she was pissed at the breeder.


Did they meet the dog in person before paying for it? I just don't see how that could possibly happen unless there was something shady going on (like the breeder switched the promised pup for another one), but that would be a question of ethics not related to pricing based on coloring. 

Or is there a color I'm not thinking of that is hard to identify or changes with maturity?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Avie said:


> That's what presumably happened in that topic I mentioned in my first post. Someone bought a Chihuahua, paid a lot for it because she wanted a specific color, and the dog turned out not to have that color. Now, whether the breeder she got her dog from was reputable or not is another question (that wasn't answered). Regardless, she was pissed at the breeder.


If the breeder was breeding for color and selling "rare" colored pups for more, then I'd learn towards "not reputable." Chihuahuas can come in any color and be registered and shown, so all colors are "worth" as much as all the others. Especially if a pup is going as a pet and will be spayed or neutered, color should not affect the price one bit. And from what I've seen online, good chi breeders don't breed for color.

I did a bit of Googling and it seems that "lavender" chis are just lighter (diluted?) chocolates (I'm not going to pretend to understand coat color genetics, haha). I would assume that this would be apparent at 8 weeks, but I don't know. In any case, that's a risk you run when you buy a young pup. When I got Casper, I thought he'd have blue eyes. He ended up with one brown eye and one half-blue eye. I didn't pay any extra to secure a coveted b/w, blue-eyed pup, so no harm, no foul. It doesn't change how awesome he is.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Avie said:


> Thank you for the responses so far!
> 
> So it is possible for a breeder to determine whether a pup is likely to succeed in a certain area (show, work, etcetera).
> 
> ...


Is there a contract? What would be required as far as financial considerations would be (hopefully) understood between the two parties


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Imo, as far as working dogs go, a lot can happen with the handler and training techniques. If a sell a 16 week old pup that shows the drive and nerve to be great, but is poorly handled then no refund. Many wait until the dogs are close to a year old to be sure. 
However if I sold a pup that had a fault that would make him unsuitable to work, such as a physical problem that wasn't apparent when sold, then he would be refunded or replaced. Again, not with color, as mal coats change with age, and color isn't a priority for me. 
I have sold a puppy that was returned, as he was too much for the woman. I was pretty sure this would be the case, and shouldn't have placed him there to begin with (although he was a very laid back pup for the breed). She had researched, been around a few, and had a trainer lined up. He came back, and I didn't see any fault, just not well suited for that home, and she has decided against malinois and opted for a much easier breed.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I can understand charging more for a show or working prospect and less for dogs destined to certain groups (as Juliemule mentioned), but I'm not necessarily comfortable with price differences based on sex and color. From the research I did when looking for a poodle breeder, this is often a sign of a less than reputable breeder. The only breeders I found who charged differently based on sex or color were either of the high-volume variety or had other red flags. The breeders I spoke with and would have been comfortable buying from were most interested in placing their puppies in good homes and possibly recouping some of the breeding expenses. Of course, in the poodle world things might be very different. In general, reputable breeders tend to focus on one or two colors; so, if I want a red poodle, I find a red breeder. Breeding every color poodle possible is another red flag. 



elrohwen said:


> Did they meet the dog in person before paying for it? I just don't see how that could possibly happen unless there was something shady going on (like the breeder switched the promised pup for another one), but that would be a question of ethics not related to pricing based on coloring.
> 
> Or is there a color I'm not thinking of that is hard to identify or changes with maturity?


In poodles, silver and blue dogs are born black and, I believe, silver beige and cafe au lait dogs are born brown. Experienced breeders can often tell what color a puppy will become (with silvers, some will have lighter colored fur between their toes and their muzzles will start to lighten in the first 8 weeks), but it's not guaranteed, and novice breeders and buyers may not know what to look for. Also, many poodles fade with age, so a puppy the color of dark chocolate can fade to a more milky chocolate shade in a few years.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

From my experience if a breeder is charging more for females it's usually because they are assuming that the buyer is going to be making money off her from breeding her for profit, and that kinda thinking from a breeder doesn't fly with me. If someone else can think of another reason to charge more for females please inform me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I can understand charging more for a show or working prospect and less for dogs destined to certain groups (as Juliemule mentioned), but I'm not necessarily comfortable with price differences based on sex and color. From the research I did when looking for a poodle breeder, this is often a sign of a less than reputable breeder. The only breeders I found who charged differently based on sex or color were either of the high-volume variety or had other red flags. The breeders I spoke with and would have been comfortable buying from were most interested in placing their puppies in good homes and possibly recouping some of the breeding expenses. Of course, in the poodle world things might be very different. In general, reputable breeders tend to focus on one or two colors; so, if I want a red poodle, I find a red breeder. Breeding every color poodle possible is another red flag.
> 
> 
> 
> In poodles, silver and blue dogs are born black and, I believe, silver beige and cafe au lait dogs are born brown. Experienced breeders can often tell what color a puppy will become (with silvers, some will have lighter colored fur between their toes and their muzzles will start to lighten in the first 8 weeks), but it's not guaranteed, and novice breeders and buyers may not know what to look for. Also, many poodles fade with age, so a puppy the color of dark chocolate can fade to a more milky chocolate shade in a few years.


Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize some of their colors changed so much and could be hard to tell at 8 weeks. Interesting! I was only really aware of fading, but then the dog is still the same color advertised, just a different shade.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Keechak said:


> From my experience if a breeder is charging more for females it's usually because they are assuming that the buyer is going to be making money off her from breeding her for profit, and that kinda thinking from a breeder doesn't fly with me. If someone else can think of another reason to charge more for females please inform me.


I read a rationale for different prices for males and females on a breeder's web site: one sex is generally seen as more desirable (maybe females?), so they reduce the price of the opposite sex as an incentive. If I remember correctly, that particular breeder had some characteristics that I would describe as questionable, so I took their rationale with a grain of salt.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Did they meet the dog in person before paying for it?





Crantastic said:


> If the breeder was breeding for color and selling "rare" colored pups for more, then I'd learn towards "not reputable." Chihuahuas can come in any color and be registered and shown, so all colors are "worth" as much as all the others. Especially if a pup is going as a pet and will be spayed or neutered, color should not affect the price one bit. And from what I've seen online, good chi breeders don't breed for color.





Pawzk9 said:


> Is there a contract? What would be required as far as financial considerations would be (hopefully) understood between the two parties


That was the major issue with that topic. The topic starter had an angry opening post, warning people not to buy their dog from that breeder because of yada yada yada, and she paid a lot of money for her pup so it would be lavender, and then it turned out to be beige. I'm not familiar with coloring in Chihuahuas, but apparently beige and lavender are different things and the topic started was very upset about that. 

The administrators quickly removed the names and everything of that breeder, because according to Dutch laws slander and defamation of someone is illegal. I've never read the breeder's name, but others had read it and looked it up before they were removed by the admins and some of them claimed that it was in fact a reputable breeder. But opinions differed on that matter, because said breeder charged different prices for different colors, bred all sorts of colors and advertised them as being 'special'. So that sounded fishy. 
Also, the topic starter mentioned nothing about a contract, and she never answered the question asking if she had actually seen the pup herself before she bought it. 

All in all, I'm leaning towards the not-reputable as far as that breeder goes. And the topic starter... I don't know what to think of that person.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I read a rationale for different prices for males and females on a breeder's web site: one sex is generally seen as more desirable (maybe females?), so they reduce the price of the opposite sex as an incentive. If I remember correctly, that particular breeder had some characteristics that I would describe as questionable, so I took their rationale with a grain of salt.


the male/female thing has always thrown me..I always assumed it was because of the "make your money back" thing, but there is a breeder I like, health tests, temperment tests etc.. the only red flag I can find is that they charge more for females, which further throws me because they breed for pets, and only sell on spay/neuter contacts, which kinda throws the "make your money back" theory out the window lol. as for one sex being more desirable... dont most people go for males? in whcih case shouldnt females be CHEAPER? because in my experience both in RL and on forums, the vast majority prefere boys.. lol


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> It's a very old saying. Originally about horses, I think.


It DOES originate with horses...and is true. Though grey horses have to be REALLY good, because of the work involved in trying to keep them clean . I'd still rather have an awesome, sound, grey horse than a crappy bay horse, though.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

Miss Bugs said:


> the male/female thing has always thrown me..I always assumed it was because of the "make your money back" thing, but there is a breeder I like, health tests, temperment tests etc.. the only red flag I can find is that they charge more for females, which further throws me because they breed for pets, and only sell on spay/neuter contacts, which kinda throws the "make your money back" theory out the window lol. as for one sex being more desirable... dont most people go for males? in whcih case shouldnt females be CHEAPER? because in my experience both in RL and on forums, the vast majority prefere boys.. lol


I would ask the breeder why they charge more for females.

The gender-price-difference thing has never really flown with me.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Miss Bugs said:


> the male/female thing has always thrown me..I always assumed it was because of the "make your money back" thing, but there is a breeder I like, health tests, temperment tests etc.. the only red flag I can find is that they charge more for females, which further throws me because they breed for pets, and only sell on spay/neuter contacts, which kinda throws the "make your money back" theory out the window lol. as for one sex being more desirable... dont most people go for males? in whcih case shouldnt females be CHEAPER? because in my experience both in RL and on forums, the vast majority prefere boys.. lol


I found the breeder with the price differential. Their assertion is that people consider females to be better pets, so they discount the males to promote them. They also price by color, with dogs "starting at $$$$." Of course, the "rare" (i.e., AKC disqualifying patterns) and popular colors carry a higher price. There are a number of things about this particular breeder that I would consider less than ethical.

If you really like the breeder you found, you could ask about the price difference. There might be a perfectly reasonable explanation.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think it's understandable for show-quality/breeding-quality females to cost more. It's harder to sell males -- most breeders are disappointed when they get a litter of all males. They want females to keep for their breeding program (to hopefully produce a pup that will replace the mom in the program) and to sell to other breeders to help further their breeding programs. Most males aren't really in demand as studs unless they are awesome, so they may only be "used" a couple of times in their lives... whereas a female can give birth to a couple of litters, producing a bunch of pups. Good breeders aren't in it for the money, but it is nice if they can at least break even, and a female will help pay for her own career costs a bit more.

For pets, though... there really should be no difference in price. If it's going to be spayed or neutered, its breeding potential is irrelevant.

And all that said, I don't think that the good breeders I know charge more for their show/breeding dogs based on gender anyway, though I'm not positive.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> Most males aren't really in demand as studs unless they are awesome, so they may only be "used" a couple of times in their lives... whereas a female can give birth to a couple of litters, producing a bunch of pups.


Huh... won't that eventually narrow the gene pool considerably?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't breed (or intend to), so I haven't given that a whole lot of thought, but I gather that some breeds do have problems due to popular studs. People on these forums have talked before about how it's hard to find a dog of their breed that doesn't have a certain stud dog back in the lines.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I've heard about the 'popular stud phenomenon' but I thought it was more about one or two dogs who sired hundreds of pups. I didn't realize it was common practice to use many more bitches than dogs. Seems like it would definitely narrow the gene pool.

Admittedly, I don't know much about breeding... I may start my own thread, don't want to hijack too much!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Red Brindle is the preferred color/pattern in Bulldogs, and even though that makes up the majority of my line, I would never charge more based on color, that just doesn't fly with me. But I also don't charge more for show than I do pets, nor female vs. male. 

With Weims, it's a non issue, there is only one true color, grey (there are a few different shades but all grey). But again still don't charge more/less for anything. 

The only reason I would drop a price is if there was a medical issue.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

I don't agree with charging for different colors, but I'm neutral about genders. Our breeder charges more for males as an incentive for people to buy females (which less people are vying for) but a 200 dollar difference in a dog that's nearly 1500 isn't a big deal at that point.

I'm not sure how I feel about charging more for show vs pet quality. At 8 weeks, you can have an incling, but nothing is set in stone. I think contracts with the ability to "upgrade" to a show contract are much more fair. That way you don't have to look at an infant and decide if it can model as an adult.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Personally, I'm ok with a breeder charging more for a show or working quality pup and less for pets and mismarks.
> 
> I don't feel the same about color though. Sure, flashy blue merles are highly desired and probably do better in the ring, but if that dog isn't otherwise a show prospect (maybe his conformation isn't great) then he should cost the same as his plainer siblings, IMO. Dogs should be matched based on the best home for them, not who is willing to pay more. In a litter where all are pet quality, for example, buyers' color preferences can be taken into account, but temperament matching is most important to me and I'd look for a breeder who prioritizes this.
> 
> Then again, this is easy for me to say since my breed only comes in one color and all patterns are acceptable under the standard (not sure if judges prefer one pattern over another though).


One would understandably referri to dogs of simlar structure and quality. Of course if a dog has pretty markings but poor structure it is not as valuable as a "non-flashy" dog of exceptional promise. But yes, if a breeder had two dogs of equal structure and one is a silver blue merle with lots perfectly placed white trim and bright copper, I would not be surprised if the breeder asked a higher price than the equally nicely built and temperamented muddy black tri. I'd of course have the option to decide what dog/price I will pay for


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> One would understandably referri to dogs of simlar structure and quality. Of course if a dog has pretty markings but poor structure it is not as valuable as a "non-flashy" dog of exceptional promise. But yes, if a breeder had two dogs of equal structure and one is a silver blue merle with lots perfectly placed white trim and bright copper, I would not be surprised if the breeder asked a higher price than the equally nicely built and temperamented muddy black tri. I'd of course have the option to decide what dog/price I will pay for


I was more referring to the breeders who list "$1500 for a blue merle and $1200 for a black tri" as a blanket statement, unrelated to quality. Those are the breeders that I disagree with. If the dogs are actually of equal quality, I would still expect the same price, but I wouldn't hold it against the breeder as much as the first case for choosing to price them differently (in the case of pet quality though, I still don't see a good reason for price differences based on color). Still, no dogs are actually equal, so in most cases temperament or other attributes should be weighed before color, IMO.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My puppies will all be the same price. I personally don't agree with charging more for a show potential puppy. If that puppy doesn't turn out, I don't see why the buyer should be out $200-400 more than the pet buyer.

Dogs that have been grown out are a different story.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> I was wondering about this. Several reasons;
> 
> - I know that most breeders here ask the same for each puppy, whether male/female, good looking or not. Exceptions can be made for pups with a known health issue.
> 
> ...




Most GOOD breeders do not ask the same price for all the puppies in a litter.

Most have show prospect prices and pet prices... Many also have performance prospect prices.

And if they get something REALLY special they might add a premium on to that pup.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

If you breed two dogs that got their 15 points in the show ring, got their championship, got tested, got bred, "show" prospect puppies may not command much more than pets. 

But the breeder if the breeder is pricing their show prospects at a higher price, then the breeder contractually has a greater responsibility in that pup. At least the breeder should. I would NOT pay a premium for a puppy that was a prospect without a written guarantee. 

Now if the sire or dam (or Both) of the litter did exceptional. Went WAY beyond the minimum of what it takes to become titled. Proved themselves at a very high level. Then the breeder should be charging premiums for their prospects if the production is of the expected quality. 

IF you breed two nationally rank dogs, and get high quality pups it is reasonable to expect that with the right committment by the owner, will find itself nationally ranked in about 2-3 years. 

Outsiders see higher prices for prospect pups as "oh the breeder is making money" That Seldom happens. The breeder is losing. And if someone wants a prospect out of a high level dog, they should pay a premium.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Keechak said:


> From my experience if a breeder is charging more for females it's usually because they are assuming that the buyer is going to be making money off her from breeding her for profit, and that kinda thinking from a breeder doesn't fly with me. If someone else can think of another reason to charge more for females please inform me.


In my breed some breeders charge more for females even on limited registrations. It is pretty common. And the reason has nothing to do with breeding. Female ACDs are much easier to live with (it is RARE for us to get a female in rescue. We get one or two bitches a year at most. We once went 30 months without anyone trying to turn in a bitch) Males are MUCH more of a pain the butt.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Most GOOD breeders do not ask the same price for all the puppies in a litter.
> 
> Most have show prospect prices and pet prices... Many also have performance prospect prices.
> 
> And if they get something REALLY special they might add a premium on to that pup.


While I respect your opinion and thank you for sharing it, I do not agree with it. Where I come from, most good breeders DO ask the same price for all the puppies in a litter. Where I come from, breeders who ask different prices for their puppies are frowned upon. Some breed clubs even have these breeders banned when they find out they're charging different prices for individual puppies. Here, common for good breeders is no matter the color, prospect or gender; same price each. 

This is why I started this topic. How common is it in other parts of the world, and what is the reasoning behind it. Why is it ok/not ok. What is everyone's opinion. 

Thanks for elaborating in your second post by the way. It is interesting to read other's opinions. Just... please don't say it like it's a universal truth. 'Good breeders are this. End of story.' (how your post came across to me) Can't agree with that. And I know there's something to say against my opinion as well. My opinion isn't necessarily right, though it feels right for me. Just like your opinion feels right for you. 

It may seem like a strange question because am all for puppies priced equally, but could you point out what the downsides are when pricing pups like this? (same price for all pups?)


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Avie said:


> While I respect your opinion and thank you for sharing it, I do not agree with it. Where I come from, most good breeders DO ask the same price for all the puppies in a litter. Where I come from, breeders who ask different prices for their puppies are frowned upon. Some breed clubs even have these breeders banned when they find out they're charging different prices for individual puppies. Here, common for good breeders is no matter the color, prospect or gender; same price each.
> 
> This is why I started this topic. How common is it in other parts of the world, and what is the reasoning behind it. Why is it ok/not ok. What is everyone's opinion.
> 
> ...


Breeders who are breeding for specific qualities more frequently charge by the quality of the puppy than just name a price for every pup in the litter (regardless of quality.) Europe and FCI tend to do a number of strange things in the eyes of us Yanks. The only people I know of who regularly have one price for the entire litter are breeding strictly for pets (not sports, not work, not conformation) or just plain don't know how to evaluate their pups, which does not fill me with confidence in their ability as a breeder


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Most GOOD breeders do not ask the same price for all the puppies in a litter.
> 
> Most have show prospect prices and pet prices... Many also have performance prospect prices.
> 
> And if they get something REALLY special they might add a premium on to that pup.


What do you mean by REALLY special? Show *and* performance prospect in same pup? Flashy coloring? Something else?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm truly curious about this. My experience is in researching poodle breeders. Most do have different prices for limited vs full registration (pet vs show prospects), and I could imagine someone charging more for performance prospects; however, charging more for desirable or flashy colors generally isn't done by reputable breeders. Things may be different with other breeds.



JohnnyBandit said:


> In my breed some breeders charge more for females even on limited registrations. It is pretty common. And the reason has nothing to do with breeding. Female ACDs are much easier to live with (it is RARE for us to get a female in rescue. We get one or two bitches a year at most. We once went 30 months without anyone trying to turn in a bitch) Males are MUCH more of a pain the butt.


This makes sense. None of the breeds were researched were difficult to live with, so nothing like this ever came up. Thanks!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Most papillon breeders I know charge varying prices per pup depending on the perceived quality of the puppy. It's a combination of pedigree and then the pup's characteristics too. Example: Bernard's sister was 'discounted' due to being a non standard color. She was significantly cheaper than the puppies that looked like standard papillons. Even structural/conformation differences in PET puppies might cause a pup to be cheaper than another. 

I wouldn't do it this way if I were a breeder, I don't think. But I don't think breeders are bad if they do place the pups on a price scale.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> While I respect your opinion and thank you for sharing it, I do not agree with it. Where I come from, most good breeders DO ask the same price for all the puppies in a litter. Where I come from, breeders who ask different prices for their puppies are frowned upon. Some breed clubs even have these breeders banned when they find out they're charging different prices for individual puppies. Here, common for good breeders is no matter the color, prospect or gender; same price each.
> 
> This is why I started this topic. How common is it in other parts of the world, and what is the reasoning behind it. Why is it ok/not ok. What is everyone's opinion.
> 
> ...


Different continent different practices.... Ironically the breeders I know in Europe do the same thing at the breeders over here...

As Pawz says in a later post. Only pure pet breeders do this.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

cookieface said:


> What do you mean by REALLY special? Show *and* performance prospect in same pup? Flashy coloring? Something else?
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm truly curious about this. My experience is in researching poodle breeders. Most do have different prices for limited vs full registration (pet vs show prospects), and I could imagine someone charging more for performance prospects; however, charging more for desirable or flashy colors generally isn't done by reputable breeders. Things may be different with other breeds.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you can just tell.... Not on markings. Color etc. But on structure, etc.

I will use my dog for example..... I had a deposit on a male pup. Breeder had first pick but planned on keeping a bitch. I had first pick on the male. There were two male pups in the litter..... At five weeks she said we need to talk. She said the double masked boy may be the best male I have ever produced. She was thinking about keeping him. I talked her out of him with her as co owner, as he was the pup I wanted. Had we not been friends and known each other for years, I never would have gotten the dog. 
His winning record speaks that she knew of what she spoke of. He is one of the top winning dogs, if not the top winning dog she has ever produced. And Merlin is an Underachiever. Hard to call a dog with Merlin's winning record an underachiever but he is.... IF he had campaigned on a national level, he would have done MUCH more. 

And that is not the only time I have seen her do that. Spot a really special puppy early on.... One day she called me and said, "you need to get your butt down here and see this bitch puppy. " Not hey come see this nice litter. etc. 
I go see her a couple days later.... She shows me a red puppy.... She says 10 grand would not buy that puppy. She is drooling over it. She took her out and finished her in three weekends. As a puppy. She does not show her much but she WINS when she shows. She took Best Op at last years National Championship. 

Bottom line is a knowledgable breeder can spot something really special at a very young age. In most cases, you will never get a chance to buy that puppy though. I got LUCKY and she had multiple males on the property.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> As Pawz says in a later post. Only pure pet breeders do this.


I disagree. Such a blanket statement. As I said, I will be charging the same price for all my puppies. Quality is subjective, and I see no reason for one buyer to be out more money than another because they purchased a young animal as a show prospect rather than a pet.

And the puppy I may consider the "pick puppy" structurally may be the puppy somebody else would sell as a pet.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I disagree. Such a blanket statement. As I said, I will be charging the same price for all my puppies. Quality is subjective, and I see no reason for one buyer to be out more money than another because they purchased a young animal as a show prospect rather than a pet.
> 
> And the puppy I may consider the "pick puppy" structurally may be the puppy somebody else would sell as a pet.


Well it is your perogative to disagree. But not common at all for breeders involved in performance or show dogs to have a single set price. In fact it is rare.... I have been involved in well bred dogs for all of my 45 years. And I don't think I have ever met one that did. 

And they are your puppies and you can do what wish, but I see no good reason to charge the same price. All puppies are not created equal. Then you have Pick, someone that wants something really specific. 

At a single price, you are either going to be undercharging for your best puppies or over charging for your pet puppies.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

see I come from purely working bred BCs, in in working BC's puppies are puppies, and they cheap and nothing special. prices go up as the puppies get older, get exposure to stock etc.. because thats the only real way to evaluate them, there is no "working prospect" or "pet quality" at 8 weeks old. I have never seen anything higher then $800 for a working BC pup, and thats from the absolute best most sought after kennels. but as they get older and worked on stock, price goes down if they are not good, and up as they get more training and exposure, a really good, trained grown up working BC can go for hundreds of thousands. an 8 week old puppy though? is an 8 week old puppy.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> At a single price, you are either going to be undercharging for your best puppies or over charging for your pet puppies.


Like I said, the best is totally subjective


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Like I said, the best is totally subjective


While there is some subjectiveness to it. It is FAR from Totally subjective. That is if you are evaluating the dog on how it comforms to the standard, temperament, drive, etc.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

The European Basset hound breeder I am going to purchase my next Basset from charges range from $1250 - 3500 depending on the way the puppies look. I imagine some color combinations are more appealing and some of the puppies I imagine have bigger ears or more wrinkles, making for a more desirable look.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Avie said:


> While I respect your opinion and thank you for sharing it, I do not agree with it. Where I come from, most good breeders DO ask the same price for all the puppies in a litter. Where I come from, breeders who ask different prices for their puppies are frowned upon. Some breed clubs even have these breeders banned when they find out they're charging different prices for individual puppies. Here, common for good breeders is no matter the color, prospect or gender; same price each.
> 
> This is why I started this topic. How common is it in other parts of the world, and what is the reasoning behind it. Why is it ok/not ok. What is everyone's opinion.
> 
> ...


I don't have an issue with paying more for a show/breeding prospect with a proven background getting a written contract detailing what validates completion of the contract. The cost for me to travel out of state to a dog show sometimes is a $500.00 event, remember hearing one gal at the westminster say she spent around $200K campaigning her dog to be able to obtain an invite. Why not support a breeder being responsible and active and pro active in their breed long term.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

A lot of working breeders I know of and respect do not charge based on perceived quality. Regardless of whether the dog is sold as a pet/companion or as a working/performance dog, they are all the same price. Sometimes there is a variation depending on the breeding, but individual puppies from the same litter are either the same price, or separated in asking price by gender. Preferences are given to working homes, but with most breeders the dogs are all sold on limited (non-breeding) contracts until the dog is health tested and titled/instinct tested, when the registration can be switched to full if the dog is approved for breeding. 

My dog's breeder is an example. I know he sees all of his dogs as working/performance quality dogs and he will match a dog to the home he sees as best suited for that puppy/dog... regardless of the new owner's intentions. He placed my dog's sister, the most driven and promising puppy of the litter, in a pet/companion home because that was ultimately the most suitable match. He does charge more for males than females, and I am assuming that it's because males tend to be in higher demand among people looking to buy dogs for companionship and for competition, too. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion, I don't mind paying the extra few hundred for a male and clearly others don't as well. Would I do the same if I were a breeder? No. But that means nothing.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> In fact it is rare.... I have been involved in well bred dogs for all of my 45 years. And I don't think I have ever met one that did.


Huh...I've met a few. And I've not been involved nearly as long as you.



> At a single price, you are either going to be undercharging for your best puppies or over charging for your pet puppies.


This is false logic, IMO


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Avie, I am wondering to what/whom you are referring when you say that "most breeders in my area charge the same"? Have you personally spoken to all these breeders? Do they show/title their dogs in conformation, sports etc?

The fact is that most breeders do not disclose prices of their show quality pups unless you contact them asking for one, and tell them a LOT about yourself, and they've decided that they are willing to sell you a show prospect. 

Practices also vary depending on breed. For toy breeds, around the WORLD (I've spoken to breeders from Europe, Canada, the US, Australia, Japan, everywhere!), I have never EVER heard of show prospects being sold at the same price as pet quality puppies. Toy breeds produce only 1-5 (5 being highly unlikely usually) puppies per litter, and most breeders are hoping to keep at least 1 show quality pup. Females are preferred, of course, because as Crantastic has mentioned many times, they are more "valuable" to a breeding program. Most breeders can use outside studs (VERY NICE ONES!) easily, but to get someone to sell you a top quality bitch is very, very hard indeed.

The reason why breeders prefer to keep females is because the dogs in their kennels are usually closely related. If they were to keep a male pup, they would have very few options in terms of breeding, so it makes more sense for them to use an outside stud dog. This is of course, unless the dog is a top quality producer, in which case there would be many other breeders who would want to use him. The popular sire syndrome is only a prevalent problem in certain breeds--in most breeds, it's not really a problem.

Most show breeders will sell puppies at different prices--mismarked pups are usually the cheapest, followed by pet quality puppies. Pets are usually sold at the same price but some do charge more for females as they are always in demand. Pet owners seem to think that females are easier to train, etc. 

For show quality pups, females can be sold for more than males in some cases, especially if it's of very good breeding/lines. The reality is that there are much more males for sale--so it's easier to find a very nice one for a cheaper price than a female of equal standard.

I will be breeding my first litter next year, and I am highly reluctant to keep a male pup... because I would have to make sure that he is 100% separated from his mom when she comes in heat TWICE A YEAR! That is such a hassle. I would much rather keep a nice female to be shown, as I wouldn't have to worry about separating, etc. Plus, keeping a female would help me with my breeding program in the future. There are lots of outside studs I can use--I can even get frozen semen shipped in, but if I keep a male, I have nothing to breed him to. Get what I mean?

I am also very iffy about selling female puppies, even to show homes. Like Johnny Bandit says, I would have to be responsible 100% for whatever happens to a show prospect pup--if it doesn't turn out, or has a health problem, etc. I would much rather sell puppies to pet homes on a spay/neuter contract at a cheaper price. But if I can find good show homes for my pups, I would consider selling them as show prospects.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Well-put, Lucidity, and very much in line with what I've experienced and observed from my spot on the fringes of the show/breeding world.

And you're definitely right about most breeders not disclosing the show/breeder price unless they plan to sell to you. I know the pet prices for most of the Maritime papillon breeders. I don't know what they charge for show pups, just that it's more. I doubt that they even bother mentioning the two price ranges to people who inquire about pets -- they just say something like, "All of my pups are $1500," because really, a pet buyer doesn't have to know about the show contracts.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Definitely! As a rule of thumb, I don't even ask about prices unless there is something that I want to buy from the breeder RIGHT NOW. I think it's good etiquette not to ask about prices in the first correspondence. Also, most don't have a specific price that they ALWAYS sell their show prospects at. Most will say, depends on the breeding, quality, etc. so really, it's impossible to tell how much a pup would cost until it's born, and is 8-12 weeks old at least!

To me, that is fair, because I can understand paying more for a puppy from a heavily titled bitch mated to a heavily titled outside stud (whose semen the breeder had to pay for), and paying less for a pup from non-titled bitch.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> This is false logic, IMO


The logic is there whether you want see it or not...'

Fact..... All of the puppies in the litter are not the same value.... If I am looking for a pet puppy and all of the puppies in your litter are 950. Why am I paying the same price as the person that gets a puppy to show? 

And believe it or not.... I am not trying to be argumentative with you. You are free to sell your puppies for whatever you want. But after a lifetime of dealing with people, being in sales, and in dogs, you will make your life easier if your vary your prices. It does not matter if you feel all the puppies are worth equal money. Without the variance, you are going to get pet buyers trying to haggle you down. And.... Those that want something specific are most often willing to pay for it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> you are going to get pet buyers trying to haggle you down.


You get those regardless.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Avie, I am wondering to what/whom you are referring when you say that "most breeders in my area charge the same"? Have you personally spoken to all these breeders? Do they show/title their dogs in conformation, sports etc?


I have never bought a puppy, seeing that my dogs were adults when I got them. But I am active on the largest dog forum in my country where I follow discussions among breeders, learn from their information and read about other people's experiences with their breed. There are people from all facets of the (Dutch) dog world. Sports people, show people, breeders who breed for conformation, breeders who breed for work and/or sport (like the Malinois breeder I mentioned before). Also behaviorists and vets, but those don't really matter here. I read monthly 'professional magazines' (don't know if it's the right term for it) with up to date info about what's going on in the show and breeding world of purebred dogs. 

Then there are people in my direct environment who have bought a purebred puppy, for instance my neighbors who got an Altdeutscher Schäferhund. Their breeder asked €950 for each puppy in a litter of 7. Said they could have asked more, but wanted the pups to go to good homes in the first place and they didn't want the price to be a deterrent for serious puppy buyers. It is a well respected breeder and they've been into dog breeding a long time. They have health tested show dogs and encouraged my neighbors to show their pup as well, because he looked very promising. 

From what I've read on the Dutch forum, respectable breeders do not charge based on color or gender or promise. I also know that it isn't uncommon for a breed club to maintain one price that all affiliated breeders need to charge, or they may face, like I mentioned in a previous post, being banned. 

So no, while I have spoken to breeders in real life, I've never asked about puppy prices. Still, while there are breeders who do charge differently, I'm fairly certain that the common thing to do is charge equally for each pup. Then I speak not for 'Europe' in general, as that is an entire continent with tons of countries and cultures. I only speak of the situation as I know it my own country, the Netherlands. A tiny and insignificant (and weird) country, I'm well aware  , but the only one I know best. 

Help me see out of my box, please  Before I started this thread I thought charging different prices was undefendable, but knew my opinion isn't all there is to it and of course there are arguments for charging different prices for individual puppies. I just wasn't aware of them. Now, I'm starting to be aware. 

Thanks for the responses so far. (and keep them coming  )


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Unless you're the seller or the buyer, who the heck cares how much anyone is charging/paying for a puppy?

Just like all rectangles are squares but not all squares are rectangles, just because many reputable breeders charge varying prices within a litter doesn't mean that to be a reputable breeder you must charge varying prices within a litter. Seems like kind of a petty thing to judge a breeder by, honestly, when there are so many more important things to think about.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Avie, just my opinion but I don't think it's fair to make conclusions on all breeders in your country by just hearing what other people have said. I myself do not like presenting things as fact unless I have spoken to these breeders personally.

Also, there are great differences depending on breed, so a blanket statement saying most breeders in The Netherlands sell all puppies at the same price is quite a big thing to be claiming, imo.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Avie, just my opinion but I don't think it's fair to make conclusions on all breeders in your country by just hearing what other people have said. I myself do not like presenting things as fact unless I have spoken to these breeders personally.
> 
> Also, there are great differences depending on breed, so a blanket statement saying most breeders in The Netherlands sell all puppies at the same price is quite a big thing to be claiming, imo.


If that is your opinion, that is fine. I believe my info to be correct. 
In any case, it does not affect the topic at hand: is it OK for breeders to ask different prices for individual puppies. Why not/why too? So many people, so many opinions, and I am learning new things.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Avie said:


> If that is your opinion, that is fine. I believe my info to be correct.
> In any case, it does not affect the topic at hand: is it OK for breeders to ask different prices for individual puppies. Why not/why too? So many people, so many opinions, and I am learning new things.


Funny, because I know quite a few Dutch breeders of Affenpinschers, Papillons & Cavaliers and they DO charge very different prices for show quality pups. Affens for instance, go for $5000 or more for good quality ones... certainly not a pet price.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

My father bought a pet quality puppy from an AKC conformation judge about a year ago, that puppy was the same price as every puppy she sold regardless of what type of home they went to. He wasn't happy with what he paid, it was $100 more than what he had planned to pay for a puppy, but it wasn't a deal breaker either especially after he met the litter and fell in love with the one "definite" pet quality puppy.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Funny, because I know quite a few Dutch breeders of Affenpinschers, Papillons & Cavaliers and they DO charge very different prices for show quality pups. Affens for instance, go for $5000 or more for good quality ones... certainly not a pet price.


Yes, it does happen, but only in a couple breeds it is considered normal, like the Chinese Crested. However, in most breeds it is frowned upon. Therefore I feel I can say what I said in my opening post, and I stand by it. 



Keechak said:


> My father bought a pet quality puppy from an AKC conformation judge about a year ago, that puppy was the same price as every puppy she sold regardless of what type of home they went to. He wasn't happy with what he paid, it was $100 more than what he had planned to pay for a puppy, but it wasn't a deal breaker either especially after he met the litter and fell in love with the one "definite" pet quality puppy.


Did he feel the puppy he bought was overpriced? Do you know of the reason why that breeder asked the same price for each puppy?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Avie said:


> Yes, it does happen, but only in a couple breeds it is considered normal, like the Chinese Crested. However, in most breeds it is frowned upon. Therefore I feel I can say what I said in my opening post, and I stand by it.


Well, we know that "a couple breeds" includes the crestie, the affenpinscher, the papillon, and the cavalier. You don't think there are others? Every breed is covered on your forum, and multiple breeders from every breed have flat-out stated that they don't charge different prices for show and pet pups?

And why do you _care_, is what I'm wondering. It should be apparent from all of the posts in this thread that there's no pricing scheme that makes a "good" breeder. And you're not looking to purchase a pup from anyone, are you?

It makes sense to me that prices would be on a scale. Good breeders aren't in it for the money, but they would at least like to break even if possible, and coming out ahead would be excellent. They could charge the same price for each pup, but they probably couldn't set that price too high without turning off pet buyers (which are the majority of buyers, usually; not all pups are show quality even from the best sire and dam, and lots of show quality pups get placed as pets anyway because there just aren't THAT many show breeders out there). They couldn't set it too low without digging themselves into a financial hole (properly breeding is not cheap). Makes sense to charge more for the show pups (perhaps with a contract stating the buyer can have the difference in price back if the dog turns out to be pet quality after all) and less for the pets, because show buyers are usually prepared to pay more than pet buyers. Dog breeding is a hobby, but it's also a business (not a very profitable one, but it involves buying and selling, so it's a business nonetheless). It makes sense to charge people what they will pay/what your product is worth.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Well, we know that "a couple breeds" includes the crestie, the affenpinscher, the papillon, and the cavalier. You don't think there are others? Every breed is covered on your forum, and multiple breeders from every breed have flat-out stated that they don't charge different prices for show and pet pups?
> 
> And why do you _care_, is what I'm wondering. It should be apparent from all of the posts in this thread that there's no pricing scheme that makes a "good" breeder. And you're not looking to purchase a pup from anyone, are you?
> 
> It makes sense to me that prices would be on a scale. Good breeders aren't in it for the money, but they would at least like to break even if possible, and coming out ahead would be excellent. They could charge the same price for each pup, but they probably couldn't set that price too high without turning off pet buyers (which are the majority of buyers, usually; not all pups are show quality even from the best sire and dam, and lots of show quality pups get placed as pets anyway because there just aren't THAT many show breeders out there). They couldn't set it too low without digging themselves into a financial hole (properly breeding is not cheap). Makes sense to charge more for the show pups (perhaps with a contract stating the buyer can have the difference in price back if the dog turns out to be pet quality after all) and less for the pets, because show buyers are usually prepared to pay more than pet buyers. Dog breeding is a hobby, but it's also a business (not a very profitable one, but it involves buying and selling, so it's a business nonetheless). It makes sense to charge people what they will pay/what your product is worth.


SECONDED!! And also what Sassafras said.

I don't think it matters at all--there are a zillion other ways to gauge whether or not a breeder is a good one... looking at how they price their pets differently isn't really one of them, unless they are BYBs who are selling rare coloured puppies for exorbitant prices..... and you can see that those are crappy breeders anyway without even looking at their prices.

ETA: No two people on the planet have the exact SAME idea of what a good breeder is, and what kind of breeder they'd buy a pup from. Heck, a PETA nut would say that any and ALLLLLL breeders are satan's minions


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Well, we know that "a couple breeds" includes the crestie, the affenpinscher, the papillon, and the cavalier. You don't think there are others? Every breed is covered on your forum, and multiple breeders from every breed have flat-out stated that they don't charge different prices for show and pet pups?
> 
> And why do you _care_, is what I'm wondering. It should be apparent from all of the posts in this thread that there's no pricing scheme that makes a "good" breeder. And you're not looking to purchase a pup from anyone, are you?
> 
> It makes sense to me that prices would be on a scale. Good breeders aren't in it for the money, but they would at least like to break even if possible, and coming out ahead would be excellent. They could charge the same price for each pup, but they probably couldn't set that price too high without turning off pet buyers (which are the majority of buyers, usually; not all pups are show quality even from the best sire and dam, and lots of show quality pups get placed as pets anyway because there just aren't THAT many show breeders out there). They couldn't set it too low without digging themselves into a financial hole (properly breeding is not cheap). Makes sense to charge more for the show pups (perhaps with a contract stating the buyer can have the difference in price back if the dog turns out to be pet quality after all) and less for the pets, because show buyers are usually prepared to pay more than pet buyers. Dog breeding is a hobby, but it's also a business (not a very profitable one, but it involves buying and selling, so it's a business nonetheless). It makes sense to charge people what they will pay/what your product is worth.


Out of the +/- 330 dog breeds, yeah, there are only a couple, even if there are more than the ones you just mentioned. Is it really so hard to accept that things don't go the way you're used to in other places around the world? I don't find it hard to accept, that's why I came here to ask for opinions, because I knew things don't go the way I'm used to here. For instance, it doesn't make sense to me to put puppy prices on a scale. That's why I find it refreshing to read everyone's opinions in this thread. 

And... why do you care that I care? 

But to answer a couple things shortly: I care because I'm genuinely curious, and that curiosity stems from two things: my interest in dogs and anything related to dogs, and the fact that I will at one point buy a puppy instead of adopt an adult. That puppy may or may not come from a breeder overseas. Thank you for your interest as to why I care though


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

This has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion. It really seems to highlight the differences among breeders in different geographical regions and among breed communities. What I've taken from the discussion is that a breeder's pricing structure is one factor that may indicate the breeder's ethics, but it can't be evaluated independent of other practices. Some factors, like health testing, are more black and white (although I realize there will be differences of opinions on the exact tests done, "passing" scores, etc.); however, other factors, like rehoming retired dogs or using foster families, need to be evaluated within the context of the full breeding program.

Thanks JohnnyBandit for expanding on the "extra something" comment! That was very helpful.



lucidity said:


> SECONDED!! And also what Sassafras said.
> 
> I don't think it matters at all--there are a zillion other ways to gauge whether or not a breeder is a good one... looking at how they price their pets differently isn't really one of them, *unless they are BYBs who are selling rare coloured puppies for exorbitant prices..... and you can see that those are crappy breeders anyway without even looking at their prices*.
> 
> ETA: No two people on the planet have the exact SAME idea of what a good breeder is, and what kind of breeder they'd buy a pup from. Heck, a PETA nut would say that any and ALLLLLL breeders are satan's minions


With poodles, I often see prices based on color or (mis)marks and the BYB red flags are not always obvious to those new to dog breeding.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

From a purely business standpoint, it makes sense to have different prices for different dogs. It's the moral standpoint where things get gray because people don't like the idea of "breeding for money" As such it's also completely subjective.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I asked why you care because you seem determined to believe that breeders who charge on a scale are disreputable everywhere because they supposedly are in your country, but that's clearly not the case. You've heard from several people involved in the show/breeding world, some who charge on a scale and some who don't, all of whom are good... and yet you still keep calling for opinions, as if someone's going to come along and say something different. Your opinion hasn't changed, and it seems unlikely to, no matter how many of us post saying the same thing. 

I guess I just don't understand why it's THAT important to you. Like others in this thread have said, there are SO many other things that are much, MUCH more important in a good breeder than whether they charge different prices for show and pet pups. I can't imagine why THAT would be the deal breaker... but if you don't want to buy from someone who prices on a scale, don't. Although honestly, you will probably never know. If someone is selling you a pet, they won't mention show/breeding prices at all. It would be rude to ask about them.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Avie said:


> From what I've read on the Dutch forum, respectable breeders do not charge based on color or gender or promise. I also know that it isn't uncommon for a breed club to maintain one price that all affiliated breeders need to charge, or they may face, like I mentioned in a previous post, being banned.
> 
> (and keep them coming  )


God(dess) bless the USA and the AKC! I hope our government and kennel clubs never think it's their job to tell someone how much they can charge for a puppy. Of course, we also don't have a history of breed wardens who come into your home and tell you which puppies you can sell, and which they will take off to kill.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

lol Zhaor said "because people don't like the idea of "breeding for money" 

made me laugh thinking it should be costing you money to breed.. I know some of the more active ch breeding kennels get sponsors and that supports their dog programs and not selling ch bred puppies. the level of politics in the working dog world is exhausting lol ...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> Unless you're the seller or the buyer, who the heck cares how much anyone is charging/paying for a puppy?
> 
> Just like all rectangles are squares but not all squares are rectangles, just because many reputable breeders charge varying prices within a litter doesn't mean that to be a reputable breeder you must charge varying prices within a litter. Seems like kind of a petty thing to judge a breeder by, honestly, when there are so many more important things to think about.


Pretty much that.

I don't like the notion of pricing based on color. That is because color is not a concern to me when picking out a puppy. It has no value so why would I pay more for a dog that is colored a certain way? I wouldn't. Therefore, I wouldn't go to that breeder.

But other things I would gladly pay more for. I don't think all puppies from one litter are the same quality. I would pay more for the higher quality puppies that better fit their breed standard even if they're not show prospects. 

Breeders can price however they want though. I get to choose who I want to do business with.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I have only purchased one dog from a breeder. We talked a year before the breeding. We talked a lot throughout the gestation. I watched by webcam as the pups were born and grew. At 5 weeks, I started to visit the litter. When the breeder and I selected my pup, we THEN discussed the price of THAT pup. After about a year and a half of talking. I have no idea what she got for the others and I couldn't possibly care less.

It was a long road to even learning her price. 

I am surprised that serious breeders would be willing to discuss prices with people who weren't very serious about buying.

In my opinion, all pups are born deserving to be valued and loved. However, some command higher prices. And those prices can change. One of the males in the litter I got my pup from was the clear pick of the litter. He was FABULOUS. And then he turned out to be cryptorchid. Breeder then was not able to place him and kept him as a performance dog. Flat-rate pricing makes no sense at all to me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

> I am surprised that serious breeders would be willing to discuss prices with people who weren't very serious about buying.


Yes, this. Crystal's breeder and I have become good friends. I often visit her at her house, she's come to visit me, we've gone to dog shows together, we always hang out at shows, we chat on the phone, we're Facebook pals. She's a great lady and we talk about her dogs a lot. I still have no idea what she charges for a show/breeding prospect. I have no idea what the other breeders we hang out with at shows charge for their show/breeding prospects. I know they charge more, and that's it. I have no _reason_ to know, because I'm not in the market for a dog to show, and I don't want to get into breeding. I sincerely doubt that they go posting their prices all over forums.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I am surprised that serious breeders would be willing to discuss prices with people who weren't very serious about buying.


Agreed. I own a show prospect, and he cost the same as a pet, but that's because I went in looking for a pet and got the show dog by default (show buyer for the litter dropped out) so she charged me what she had originally promised (and asked me to pretty please give showing a chance with him). However, I don't know if my breeder charges people more when they come to her specifically looking for a dog to show and breed. Most breeding quality females in my breed are co-owned or kept by the breeder and I have no idea what those contracts look like as far as cost goes. It's just not something she had any reason to discuss with me.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

With in reason, breeders can ask whatever they want. It is up to the buyer to decide which breeder deserves their money.

However it is not okay for a breeder to knowingly sell a "damaged good" (AKA sickly/disabled puppy, show puppy that doesn't meet standards, etc.) without disclosing the "damage". Period.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Completely agree, gingerkid. I don't know any breeders who would charge the same amount for an unhealthy pup. Some discount mismarked pups, although I don't consider that necessary, as they still make just as good of a pet as a gorgeously-marked specimen of the breed. Most breeders discount for older pups/young dogs as well (I got Crystal when she was a year old, and she cost 1/3 less than a puppy). Retired champion breeding dogs often go for the price of the spay or neuter.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

trainingjunkie said:


> I am surprised that serious breeders would be willing to discuss prices with people who weren't very serious about buying.


To be honest, price is one of the first things I would ask a breeder, and not giving me at least a ballpark range of what I could expect to pay would be a dealbreaker (so I could know if their prices were totally out of the question or if I could manage to save up). I suspect this is true of many people who want "just a pet". Would they really be so offended if I asked about that?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

No, Willowy, not at all. I mean, most good breeders won't even answer an email that says something like, "I want a rottweiler. Do you have any puppies now and how much are they?" (and they get more of those than you'd think). But if you take the time to write or call and show the breeder that you've given this some thought, they should be fine with discussing price ranges before you commit to buying from them.

There's no need to tell you if they charge more for show/breeding prospects, or how much they charge, unless you express interest in getting into showing or breeding, though.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I find it very amusing that Avie would not admit that maybe breeders do charge different prices, just that she doesn't know about them. In life, I've found that there are almost NO absolutes in life--so I really hesitate to use the words "ALL" or even "majority" because clearly, I wouldn't have the stats to back the claims up, and I sincerely believe that there are just so many variables and variety in life that it''s impossible to say "ALL" or "everyone". That's life, isn't it? It's a (pretty)free world so people can do as they like (within boundaries), so obviously there should be differences in almost everything.

Willowy, we are talking about the price differences between pet puppies and show puppies. Breeders will happily tell you their prices for pet puppies if you ask, but they wouldn't tell you the price of a show pup unless you are asking for a show quality pup from them and they've decided that they are willing to sell you one. Funny thing is, the OP is not even interested in buying a pet pup, and has never bought one, so she has theoretically never spoken to any breeder about any prices?


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

cookieface said:


> With poodles, I often see prices based on color or (mis)marks and the BYB red flags are not always obvious to those new to dog breeding.


Not true! It is VERY easy to spot the difference between a BYB and a show breeder. BYBs generally don't show or do any kind of sports with their dogs, or probably only have 1 champion that they use at stud over and over. Now, the differences between show breeders? That's another question all together. they aren't BYBs, but some in my books are not responsible. Others may disagree with my assessment and gladly buy a puppy from them, though. So, everyone's threshold of what's "responsible" and what's "not" is a grey area.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> To be honest, price is one of the first things I would ask a breeder, and not giving me at least a ballpark range of what I could expect to pay would be a dealbreaker (so I could know if their prices were totally out of the question or if I could manage to save up). I suspect this is true of many people who want "just a pet". Would they really be so offended if I asked about that?


It is not what you ask, but how you ask it...

A three sentence email asking the price will usually not get a great response.

But a well thought out email explaining who you are, your interest in the breed, where you are in the process of acquiring a dog, and asking a ball park price you might expect to pay, is a good way to go.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

lucidity said:


> I find it very amusing that Avie would not admit that maybe breeders do charge different prices, just that she doesn't know about them.


Oh, I'm sure there are breeders that do charge different prices, they just aren't the norm. I don't believe I've said anywhere that ALL breeders here charge the same price. And about your previous post (one of the), I am not determined to believe that breeders who charge on a scale are disreputable everywhere. If it were, I wouldn't have come here to ask for opinions of people who are used to it, to get more insight into the matter. 
And lastly; I'll easily admit when I realize I'm wrong--but in this case, I'll believe the word of the breeders that caused me to think the way I do, over yours, when it comes to how the situation is here. 

Back on topic: So breeding is considered both a hobby and a business, because as a breeder you're selling, and in a business you try to get the best price for each puppy, where this price is based on lots of variables and a couple of them are things like structure, type, prospect, and may include coat color, plus you're trying to at least break even. I can understand this point of view. 
Also, what Cookieface said 



cookieface said:


> This has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion. It really seems to highlight the differences among breeders in different geographical regions and among breed communities. What I've taken from the discussion is that a breeder's pricing structure is one factor that may indicate the breeder's ethics, but it can't be evaluated independent of other practices. Some factors, like health testing, are more black and white (although I realize there will be differences of opinions on the exact tests done, "passing" scores, etc.); however, other factors, like rehoming retired dogs or using foster families, need to be evaluated within the context of the full breeding program.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Not true! It is VERY easy to spot the difference between a BYB and a show breeder. BYBs generally don't show or do any kind of sports with their dogs, or probably only have 1 champion that they use at stud over and over. Now, the differences between show breeders? That's another question all together. they aren't BYBs, but some in my books are not responsible. Others may disagree with my assessment and gladly buy a puppy from them, though. So, everyone's threshold of what's "responsible" and what's "not" is a grey area.


It's easy for someone who has done some research to differentiate a BYB and a reputable breeder, but to someone new to evaluating breeders, it _can be_ a minefield. It's also easy to differentiate a really bad BYB and a fairly decent show breeder, but there is a quality continuum for BYBs, just as there is for reputable breeders. Someone may see that a breeder does hip x-rays and think they're ethical, not realizing that there are several other tests that should be done. And how many people think that "champion lines" and "AKC registered" denote quality?

I don't want to post the specific breeder or web site, but there is one in particular that I've been thinking of through this whole thread. They appeal to novice buyers, but I wouldn't buy a puppy from them. I know there are other breeders who don't necessarily price puppies differently, but who do look good to novice buyers. For those more familiar with reputable breeding practices, they have some glaring red flags. 

These particular breeders don't have performance, working, or conformation titles on their dogs, but advertise working style or companion dogs. As has been discussed in other threads, not everyone cares about titles or actively seek to avoid titles - especially in conformation. For some people, statements like "our dogs live in our house, never in a kennel" and pictures of dogs playing with cute kids or hiking through the woods is more important than independently evaluating conformation or performance ability. For other people, tail docking or COI are primary considerations, so they may place more value on natural tails or pedigree diversity and less on overall structure or in-depth pedigree analysis.

I'm probably not making sense. My main point is that it's just not that easy for _novice_ dog buyers to fully evaluate breeders. I consider myself average intelligence, spent months researching breeds, and then several more months researching breeders, and I still have moments of panic every time I heard about a breeder having dogs confiscated for neglect or abuse.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Not true! It is VERY easy to spot the difference between a BYB and a show breeder. BYBs generally don't show or do any kind of sports with their dogs, or probably only have 1 champion that they use at stud over and over. Now, the differences between show breeders? That's another question all together. they aren't BYBs, but some in my books are not responsible. Others may disagree with my assessment and gladly buy a puppy from them, though. So, everyone's threshold of what's "responsible" and what's "not" is a grey area.


Wouldn't it be nice if we could speculate about people without calling them names? Everyone's an individual, and has individual reasons for their choices. Some less than scrupulous people have a number of dogs for breeding but might not be someone I would deal with. While I might deal with someone with a dog or two they breed occasionally. And, unless they are active in the sport I'm interested in, I could careless if their dog dock dives or does agility, as far as puppies go


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if we could speculate about people without calling them names? Everyone's an individual, and has individual reasons for their choices. Some less than scrupulous people have a number of dogs for breeding but might not be someone I would deal with. While I might deal with someone with a dog or two they breed occasionally. And, unless they are active in the sport I'm interested in, I could careless if their dog dock dives or does agility, as far as puppies go


Generally, i use the term BYB for your average pet owner who thinks that because their dog has a uterus, it should be bred.. Or that breeding is an easy source of income. I think I've mentioned before in previous posts that I have nothing against people who breed responsibly and MOST importantly, HEALTH TEST! i'd call these people "hobby breeders" instead. Sadly, like it or not, we have to use labels or terms to refer to groups of people.. If not, how else can we refer to them?

Anyway, that is totally off topic. I was replying to cookie above, who talked about poodle breeders who sell rare coloured puppies for expensive prices. My reply to her was to explain that it's generally easy for someone to spot the differences between THAT kind of breeder (no showing, no sports, nothing. Just expensive prices for rare colours) and a responsible one. 

Of course, that's if people do their research. Based on experience though, most people don't.... Hence why puppy mills still even exist.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree, cookieface, the not-so-great breeders are getting sneakier. "Champion lines" especially irritates me. I've looked into "champion line" dogs before and it's like... one grandparent or great-grandparent was a champion. That means nothing! Both of my papillon's parents were champions, and all of her grandparents, and all of her great-grandparents, etc... and she is still oversized for her breed, has a too-tight tail, and is not breeding quality. A bad breeder would call her a "champion line" dog and get lots of pups out of her. 

I get annoyed by "AKC registered" (means next to nothing), too, and by one-year health guarantees. One year is just long enough to fool people into thinking a breeder is reputable, but not long enough to actually be of any use, as most problems crop up in the second year or later. 

Anyway. There's a blog I really like called Ruffly Speaking, and the author has covered some of these topics, including how to price puppies.

http://rufflyspeaking.net/how-much-do-puppies-cost-how-the-breeder-wars-hurt-our-community/



> Now let’s look at dog breeding. We’re always walking a delicate line because we don’t consider ourselves businesses but we do ask money for a product, or (as I prefer to think of it) we ask money for an extended-support contract. But people ARE handing us a check.
> 
> If we followed cost-plus pricing, the way a small business is supposed to, the average puppy price for a well-bred litter should be around $20,000 each. And that’s not an exaggeration. Most of us have a litter once a year, twice at most; our expenses are astronomical. Most of our “raw materials” (show-potential puppies) end up never producing anything. Those who have more litters than that are also the ones who are paying the most; they are the ones showing every weekend and they have an RV that cost a year’s salary and their vet bills could send a kid to college.
> 
> ...


There's more in this entry, too: http://rufflyspeaking.net/how-much-...ies-cheap-puppies-and-a-bunch-of-other-words/

She discusses asking about prices, too:

http://rufflyspeaking.net/puppy-buyer-ettiquette/



> The ideal first contact e-mail usually goes something like
> 
> “Hi, my name is X and I’m writing to inquire about your dogs. I’ve been doing a lot of research on [breed] and I think they’re the right one for me because of [these four reasons.] I know puppies are a huge commitment, and I am planning to [accommodate that in various ways.] I’m approaching you in particular because of your interest in [whatever,] which is something I feel is very important and plan to encourage in [these three ways.]”
> 
> ...


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Generally, i use the term BYB for your average pet owner who thinks that because their dog has a uterus, it should be bred.. Or that breeding is an easy source of income. I think I've mentioned before in previous posts that I have nothing against people who breed responsibly and MOST importantly, HEALTH TEST! i'd call these people "hobby breeders" instead. Sadly, like it or not, we have to use labels or terms to refer to groups of people.. If not, how else can we refer to them?
> 
> .


We can refer to them as individuals, based on their over-all practices, not silly generalities like "if you price puppies based on individual quality instead of an across the board one-fits-all price tag, you might be a puppy miller or backyard breeder" Personally, I prefer a breeder who is able to tell me why puppy A deserves a higher price tag than puppy B. That doesn't mean I'm going o be calling a breeder who does price all the pups the same a name. It just means I'm going to be asking different questions. IMO, it's important to remember that PM and BYB are tools used to cast a bad light on ALL breeders by the Animal Rights movement.


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