# Is growling when playing ok?



## Yorkie Terror (Oct 16, 2007)

This might sound like a stupid question but i'm not as good at understanding dogs as I am cats and a lot of it is all new to me, so wondering if you could answer this for me!

I've noticed that when my puppy plays with toys she sometimes growls and my partner says this is a playful growl (she is 15 week old yorkie). We recently bought a ball on a rope toy and she appears to enjoy it when she grabs one end with her teeth and I pull on the other end and swing her about a bit (i'm hoping this isn't bad for her teeth though). Anyway, when we do this with her she growls, kind of sounds like she's trying to kill it. She will drop it when I tell her to, at any time, even halfway through the mad growling. But when we go again she starts growling like crazy. I thought this type of game would stop her 'giving things up' for me but it seems to have done the opposite and she drops anything now.

What I don't understand though, is her growling a sign of playfulness and she is enjoying it, or is she telling me to back off and the ball is hers as I don't know if I can tell the difference. She doesn't ever seem to pull back on the rope at all, she just wants to grab hold so I swing her round, so should I read it as playfulness? Its just that she growls so loud the neighbours must think we've got some crazy giant dog. I always thought that with dogs growling is bad so its kind of worrying me.

Should I stop playing like that or is it normal?


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## ozzy (Sep 29, 2007)

I am not sure what others would say but I think it is playfulness. My dog growls like crazy when he has a toy but it is all play and I know I can pull anything out of his mouth. Your pup is a terrier and I think this is pretty normal. I think rough play is ok as long as the dog will drop the toy for you when you ask. My dog growls like crazy but I have never been worried about it he even does a half growl half bark when happy to see me. There is a difference between play and real growls I think. Does she seem happy even though she is doing it?


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I think it is normal...I have a male yorkie and a female cairn. they growl during play amongst themselves and with me..I dont find it to be aggressive at all... You will be able to tell between aggressive and non aggresive growling.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Agree w/ digits mama

My dog is very nonvocal, but my sister's is very vocal. She growls a lot, but you can definitely tell the difference between her "play growl" and her "serious" growl...the whole tone and body language changes.

Considering the circumstances I would say your dog is probably just play-growling...familiarity with the dog is really the only way to know for sure though. But since she's so willing to drop it on command, and doesn't contend that you have the right to the object, she's probably just expressing her enjoyment of the game 

As long as she doesn't actually become aggressive and continues to respect the release command, I wouldn't worry too much.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

If your dog growls while playing with a toy, the first thing is to make sure that she’s growling at the toy, not at any person who happens to be around. Dogs often play by "attacking" their toys, and with some breeds, a growl is their way of saying "I want to bite/kill this thing in my mouth - it's in big trouble." 

Terriers especially will growl when shaking a toy "to death". They are killers and that is how they kill their prey. Also, if you watch them during a tug-of-war with each other, they can really build to an intense behavior. That's why I don't play that game with them. I don't want to trigger behavior that is hard to keep in control. 

Besides which, even if she's growling at the toy and not at me, if I happen to get a finger or a hand in the wrong place, I might get bitten by accident. 

So I avoid playing those kinds of games at all, and I strongly discourage any growling during one-on-one play or other time with me. 

On the other hand, if your dog is LOOKING AT YOU and growling, there is a problem, a very big problem.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Poly said:


> Besides which, even if she's growling at the toy and not at me, if I happen to get a finger or a hand in the wrong place, I might get bitten by accident.
> 
> So I avoid playing those kinds of games at all, and I strongly discourage any growling during one-on-one play or other time with me.


Discouraging growling seems counterproductive...then if you are about to get nipped you aren't even going to get any warning. 

There's definitely a right way and a wrong way to play tug of war games. By reinforcing the release command and not letting the game escalate, I think the OP is going about it the right way. Some dogs are just more vocal than others...doesn't necessarily mean that they are more prone to aggression or that they are trying dominate the game.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

http://dogstardaily.com/files/Body Language.pdf


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Shaina said:


> Discouraging growling seems counterproductive...then if you are about to get nipped you aren't even going to get any warning.


Sorry this is just poor thinking. 

A dog should also never be allowed to issue "warnings " to his leader(s), because in doing so the dog is trying to assert HIS leadership. The leaders always issue "warnings" to the followers, and never the other way around. So this sort of growilng is intolerable and has to be corrected immediately.

A dog that "nips" ANY person- and let's call it what it actually is - bites any person - is not tolerated either . A bite is a bite, and also requires immediate correction. 

My thinking is why train a dog where you are FORCED to correct negative behavior if you can avoid it? It is much better to be rewarding positive behavior. 

Of course, you must be sure that the growling/biting is not the result of some underlying medical condition.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Poly said:


> Sorry this is just poor thinking.
> 
> A dog should also never be allowed to issue "warnings " to his leader(s), because in doing so the dog is trying to assert HIS leadership. The leaders always issue "warnings" to the followers, and never the other way around. So this sort of growilng is intolerable and has to be corrected immediately.


Aggression is intolerable. Growling is not what I would call "aggression". It's a simple way of telling us "I'm very uncomfortable with that." Warning is also not a characteristic of the leader. I let my dogs warn me of people skulking around outside our house at night and of snakes in our yard.

To the OP: I think it is playfulness too. I used to play tug with my beagle all the time and she would growl too, but her expression, her stance (the one with the chest on the ground and tail in the air) and her tail always betrayed her.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Poly said:


> Sorry this is just poor thinking.
> 
> A dog should also never be allowed to issue "warnings " to his leader(s), because in doing so the dog is trying to assert HIS leadership. The leaders always issue "warnings" to the followers, and never the other way around. So this sort of growilng is intolerable and has to be corrected immediately.


Alright, look at it another way. You introduce your dog to a new person. Your dog, despite socialization, etc., doesn't like this person, but now instead of a warning growl he skips straight to a lunge or bite. Had there been a growl, you (and the potential victim) would have definitely been aware of the problem and could have prevented it. 

It's one thing to say aggression should be discouraged and addressed. It's quite another to say "warnings" should never be permitted.



> A dog that "nips" ANY person- and let's call it what it actually is - bites any person - is not tolerated either . A bite is a bite, and also requires immediate correction.


Well obviously. Where did anyone say biting was okay?



> My thinking is why train a dog where you are FORCED to correct negative behavior if you can avoid it? It is much better to be rewarding positive behavior.


This is pretty much was I was going for...sorry I didn't spell it out. I didn't mean you should let aggressive growling continue: that's dumb on several levels. Much better to figure out the stimulus, desensitize if appropriate, and reward for positive response


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Poly said:


> A dog should also never be allowed to issue "warnings " to his leader(s), because in doing so the dog is trying to assert HIS leadership. The leaders always issue "warnings" to the followers, and never the other way around. So this sort of growilng is intolerable and has to be corrected immediately.


Can you give an example with specific details of the context? I believe you're viewing growling as a protest, correct? Surely you've heard dogs growl while playing.


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## pafla (Jun 14, 2007)

A lot of dogs growl when playing and it is normal behavior.Tea is a terrier-daschund mix and loves tug-of-war she sounds like she is going crazy,she also keeps a bite as long as I dont give relase command.After that sit or lie stay are given so she gets a bit of time to chill down and then we are back to playing.Tug-of-war game is part of first club exam-the dogs is in sit-stay the owner shows a toy ,dog holds position,owner gives relase command and the play is on.On judge sign you give relase command and sit-stay.It is a proper way of playing and having dog under control.Even my shepherd mix growls when playing.It is just play.You should seen them when they play with each other.They are very vocal dogs so it sounds like a war,they also jump over each other and do false nips.People often ask me uncertain-sorry but are they playing when I say yes they got a look that preety much says-they are crazy.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

When Esther first met Jake the brindle boxer, they hit it off immediately. Their play was extremely vocal. It could have been recorded for the soundtrack of a horror moving (a cheesy one.) There was nothing alarming about it but several people were alarmed regardless and convinced there was going to be bloodshed.

Growls, like barks, come in all sorts of variations. Once you've heard your dog truly angry, you'll realize that the growl he makes when playing with a toy or with you or with another dog is a different sound altogether.

Esther's angry growl, for example, is a low rumbling from deep in her throat. It's not very loud, but it's unmistakable.

Her play growl registers about a seven on the Richter scale.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

RonE said:


> When Esther first met Jake the brindle boxer, they hit it off immediately. Their play was extremely vocal. It could have been recorded for the soundtrack of a horror moving (a cheesy one.) There was nothing alarming about it but several people were alarmed regardless and convinced there was going to be bloodshed.
> 
> Growls, like barks, come in all sorts of variations. Once you've heard your dog truly angry, you'll realize that the growl he makes when playing with a toy or with you or with another dog is a different sound altogether.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. One day in summer I was out laying in my hammock. My dogs 4 at the time were playing around me. They were tugging on a rock climbing rope I have in the backyard. They were all 4 growling like crazy. I was busy reading my book and really didn't see any problem with it. I know my dogs and knew this was play. I did look up at one point to see my neighbor looking over the wood fence. He had a nervous look on his face which became embarrassment for getting caught looking over. He said he thought there was a dog fight in progress. The funny thing is at this point all 4 dogs had dropped the rope and were also staring back at him silently. All wondering what he was doing. I explained that they tend to be verbal when playing. I told the dogs "OK" and they immediately picked the rope up and went back at it. It was just funny. I am glad I have a neighbor that cares enough to check on my dogs. LOL The truth is, I have never had a Rottie that didn't growl like crazy during play. I for one also believe they growl just to talk and had at least one that growled affectionately. I would bend over to kiss her and say her name. " OH LULU" and she would give a little growl followed by a big sloppy kiss. I had a male that would growl in the bathtub. He was the least aggressive dog I have ever owned. He just growled for everything. When my friend who really favored him would call she would say let me talk to him. I would hold the phone by his ear and she would talk to him. He growled like crazy while wagging his tail. Growling is communication. Like talking. 
Aggressive growling is like shouting and that is a warning and should be taken seriously. I just talked to my dog now and asked him what he said and he growled this type of growl does not concern me at all. It would be the equivalent of us sitting here having a polite conversation. If he yelled at me, I would correct it but talking is fine for me.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Molly's play "growl" sounds like a very loud yawn. In fact, I'll often say to her, "Oh, I'm sorry. Am I keeping you from your nap?"

I don't think there's much chance that anyone will mistake it for an angry dog sound.

Some dogs make a sound more like "rowl" than "growl." I know some Siberians that will rowl at you for a couple of minutes and then stare at you like they're expecting an intelligent and appropriate response. My Irish setter did this all the time. I think she decided I was must be midly retarded since I couldn't really understand her.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Beavis has a larger vocabulary than some people I know. Angry growls, happy growls, howls, grunts, sighs, snorts, sneezes (which seems to the be Peke equivalent of an exclamation point), gurgles, grumbles, arfs, yips, roos, something that sounds almost like a growl, but is just a roo without the oo, whines, whimpers and yaps.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Hahaha...well put Lorina....my mom has pekes and jack and Jill are just like that. I never could quite describe it like you.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Shaina said:


> Alright, look at it another way. You introduce your dog to a new person. Your dog, despite socialization, etc., doesn't like this person, but now instead of a warning growl he skips straight to a lunge or bite. Had there been a growl, you (and the potential victim) would have definitely been aware of the problem and could have prevented it.


My dogs are NOT allowed to show ANY aggression toward ANY human. The type of behavior you have been describing is dog-on-human aggression and I don't allow it. A dog is not allowed to act for himself because he "doesn't like" someone. No maybes about it. 



I'm not talking about warning barking - which I do allow but keep under control because I don't want my dogs barking unnecesarily. I'm talking about aggression.

I am sorry that you don't see the danger in tolerating this. Unfortunately, too many people think that allowing - or even worse, encouraging - aggressive behavior is some sort of "protection".


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## mastiffmama27 (Nov 18, 2007)

My Neo is quite vocal as well. I can't even describe some of the noises she makes, but to people that don't know her she sounds like a viscious beast. She has NEVER growled at me in an aggressive way. I just explain to people that it is her way of talking to me. In fact she has been learning to 'say please' for her dinner (she makes are specific howly growly sound that almost sounds like the words.) If I discouraged ALL growling our communication would be quite limited. I have heard her growl in a very aggressive manner on two occasions. Once when she wittnessed my ex husband hit me (she went after him too BUT she did try to warn him off first), and once when he tried to break into my house during the night. Let me tell you I was grateful that she's a growler.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Poly said:


> My dogs are NOT allowed to show ANY aggression toward ANY human.


But you can't control what your dog feels. Despite what you may believe your dog is thinking, you have no way of proving it. No one does. Dogs growl for a reason, if you don't understand this fact, I guess you would quickly and simply label it aggression. Dogs growl in play...you laugh. Dogs growl when scared...you may scream. Dogs growl when welcoming others...you may say hello. The fact that you have different expressions of your intent, and dog has only a few, does NOT mean growling is aggression. 

[quote[The type of behavior you have been describing is dog-on-human aggression and I don't allow it. A dog is not allowed to act for himself because he "doesn't like" someone. No maybes about it.[/quote]
I feel sorry for the dog then. You haven't even seen the dog being described hear, yet, you've labeled him aggressive, therefore he should be punished. 



> I'm not talking about warning barking - which I do allow but keep under control because I don't want my dogs barking unnecesarily. I'm talking about aggression.


Why is warning barking allowed, but warning growling not? What is it about growling that you assume is unnecessary? 



> I am sorry that you don't see the danger in tolerating this.


The danger is not understanding why dogs growl, labeling it, and applying an ill advised protocol to remedy it.



> Unfortunately, too many people think that allowing - or even worse, encouraging - aggressive behavior is some sort of "protection".


I enjoy it when my dog growls while playing a game of tug. It's all in the repertoire of behaviors when playing the game. I expect it, but I also know how to control the game...much like I can control a child's laughter by the kind of jokes I could tell.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Poly said:


> My dogs are NOT allowed to show ANY aggression toward ANY human. The type of behavior you have been describing is dog-on-human aggression and I don't allow it. A dog is not allowed to act for himself because he "doesn't like" someone. No maybes about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really don't think we're on the same page here. I hardly tolerate my dog aggressing others or myself. My point was merely that it is of utmost importance to recognize what your dog is trying to tell communicate to you, since you can hardly control the emotions of your dog...my goal is to determine the actual cause of what's going on and not automatically punish for growling in any form. I would be liable to create a truly aggressive and fearful animal who would be a danger to herself and everyone around her. 

That does not mean that I would let my dog act aggressively to anyone, much less encourage it. Different dogs vocalize differently...more prone to barking, howling, growling, etc. Interpreting and properly addressing a specific dog's messages are more important to me than laying a blanket ban on one form of nonphysical communication.

I'm curious as to why you recognize different meanings in barks but not in growls. Furthermore, you even accept warning barks, but no growls. What is your reasoning? Just for your information, I have been lunged at (aggressively) by a strange dog after just a warning bark, no growl at all.


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## The Muttlies (Nov 24, 2007)

As your puppy grows you will be able to distiguish his/her growls. You will know wether or not it is a "play" growl or a serious growl. 

In my house, serious growls are not allowed unless being provoked (I would rather they growl than snap/bite.) Play growls are allowed unless they turn into serious growls.

I would rather my dogs growl to warn that they are irritated than snap/bite. So, while it's not necessarily acceptable in my house, I don't 100% condone it. They are told to quiet and removed from the situation that is upsetting them.


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## KumoES (Nov 20, 2007)

to the OP...

Again, a play growl. If you want to *really* have fun, growl back. My kumo goes all wiggly nuts if I join him in the growling. 

To the side convo-


Here is a GRAND example of why one should NOT shut down warning signs.

Dogs are dogs, not unthinking, unfeeling robots. My previous dog, Aussie, lived the last years of his life with my grandparents, an uncle and aunt, and their baby. I'm sure you can see where this is going already.

My boyo was one of the most tolerant dogs ever towards humans, and especially small children. A two year old could hang off his ears and all he'd do is give me the "Mommy... save me!" look. However.......... My uncle is a complete moron when it comes to childcare. Thus, once his baby started crawling he would let my cousin be across the room with my dog... while my uncle would be watching tv. After 2 months of being "babysitter", of being poked, prodded, and jabbed around the eyes, ears, nose, and between his toes with razor sharp baby nails, my dog growled softly at the baby and did the quick lip lift.

That he did this IS. A. GOOD. THING. 

Because he was telling us that he had had enough. His patience was running out. And if we, as his pack leaders, were not going to correct the situation then he was by treating my little cousin as a dog would an erring puppy... by nipping/biting. And so, when my uncle called me while throwing an absolute fit, I got the story and as a good pack leader, told him that he was being stupid by leaving his baby unattended with my dog. After that, my cousin was corrected whenever he did something ouchy by his parents and he treated the dog gentler. My dog never growled at him again.

What dogs are saying when they growl is "I'm uncomfortable. Please help me correct the situation." They are ASKING us as their leader to make things right, and also telling the OTHER person "Hey, I don't like this." in an effort to make them go away. The dog is NOT saying "I am in charge and I'm gonna bite them 'cause I'm a bad dog rawr."


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## pafla (Jun 14, 2007)

Have you ever worked with fear aggressive dog? My dog is fear aggressive to both humans and dogs and I want all warnings I can get from her.That is way socialization and desentization are such a great things.Because I need to keep things under her patience treshold and the only way to do this is to know my dog and understand her body language and vocabulary.How do you not allow a dog to react aggressivly if you work with a dog who is simply geneticly aggressive.She is 8 years old and was 1.5 month when I got her and we came a long way from then.But there are still situations where she feels threatened and reacts by growling,barking,false snaps,running,freezing,false attacks...I would never make a dog skip the warnings.Without this warnings she would be condemn to a leash and muzzle for duration of her life.With them she is neurotic and aggressive in certan situations but controlable and predictable.First cames the change in breathing,then tensing of her body,hairs get up and she is starting growling,bark is next.By the time she gets to this stage she gave me four warnings that I need to handle situations or she will.Dont get me wrong a lot of it is simple control of dog but when dealing when our less balanced canins keeping a dog from growling is a way to law suit.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> But you can't control what your dog feels.


Training is not about controlling "feelings" - it is about teaching behaviors. You don't have to know what your dog is "feeling" in every situation - even if that were remotely possible- which it isn't. 

However, what IS possible is to be observant of your dogs behaviors, recognize different *behaviors*, and treat them appropriately.

Unfortunately, we seem to have two extremes: 

(1) popular trainers and training books that emphasize dominance over leadership for too many situations.

(2) touchy-feely dog owners who are so concerned about their dogs feelings that the training they do - if one can call it that - is close to worthless. 

Sorry to get on my soapbox here, but I have seen too many dogs thrown into rescue situations - or worse - by these ways of thinking. 




Curbside Prophet said:


> Why is warning barking allowed, but warning growling not? What is it about growling that you assume is unnecessary?


Good questions. 

Because a growl is not a bark - it is a _*different**_ behavior. Especially if it is directed toward a person. And since it is a different behavior, it has to be treated differently.

* Actually, it is - generally - a more aggressive behavior, but that isn't the point I'm making.




Curbside Prophet said:


> The danger is not understanding why dogs growl, labeling it, and applying an ill advised protocol to remedy it.


Let's get specific. 

If a dog is growling while playing with someone, then we have in some sense an aggressive behavior. That isn't "labeling" - that is a fact. Is the aggression directed at the toy or at the person? Are you sure? Because if you aren't really sure, you'd better treat the behavior and not some "understanding" of it. And with a tug-of-war game, there is often no way to be really sure. 

If a dog is clearly growling at a person - say, a new houseguest - then I don't care what the dog is "understanding" nor am I going to try to figure it out - that is just unacceptable aggression.

If a dog growls at his owner for moving his food bowl or taking away his toy, again I'm not interested in any "understanding" - that behavior should not be tolerated. 

I could go on, but you get the point.

Unfortunately, too many owners tolerate these behaviors and others because they like to think they "understand" them.


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## KumoES (Nov 20, 2007)

Play growling is NOT aggressive!

There is a decided difference between "grrrrrrr my toy" and "grrrrrrr fun!" and maybe you can't hear that, but I certainly can. Or maybe I've just been lucky with dogs who make a great many types of vocalisation. But as a dog with a clenched mouth can't happy bark that well, they growl instead. They want to express themselves and their happiness that much more. We laugh, they play-growl.

My Aussie would make the most wonderful loud happy growls whenever we would play, yet he only ever showed the slightest sign of aggression *twice*. Once with the baby as detailed above, and once when it was definitely warranted.

Shelby, who was motherly towards everyone, growled when she played with us... and it was "happy grrrrr"

Kumo, who I have now, will do happy growls and barks when playing too. He's encouraging me to tug more or chase him. In fact, he'll often take his squeaky toy, press it against my leg, look up at me with his entire hind end wiggling in glee and go "grrrrWOOF!". That is his "oh puh-lease chase me!" noise. He'll also do that sometimes while in the play-bow. Totally not-aggressive growling. In fact, my dog doesn't growl when he's being aggressive. He either barks really loudly (a visitor startled him yesterday so he sprang up, stood still, and bark/howled like mad. I approve of that because he didn't go after her, just made noise until we introduced her as being okay to be in the house.) or he does his "you look weird" quiet 'wuff. wuff. wuff. wuff.' which can go on for minutes and is barely audible. It almost looks like he's having hiccoughs when he does it.

Besides that, as english shepherds are a guardian breed, I'm going to appropriately channel and shape his instincts to protect the house and his pack and 'flock', not shut it down entirely. If he wants to warning woof at someone behind me, I'm going to be damn grateful. Aussie and Shelby literally saved me from rape and likely death. If we had removed that behaviour from them, I wouldn't be here telling you why warning signs like growling are beneficial.

And it's simple, you don't want dog to growl in certain situations? Desensitise them. Take them to a place/do a thing they don't like, let 'em growl, and once they stop for a bit, give 'em a treat. Make them realise it's *not* a scary/bad situation.


Possessive/dominant aggressive towards people I absolutely do not tolerate either. For the dogs safety, and for the safety of children, he needs to understand that things in his mouth can easily become ours. Kumo has a perfect "drop it!" and an almost perfect "leave it!". Be it food or toys, if I want it, it is mine and there is not a single drop of protest over this in his body. Training on that started on the day I got him at 9 wks old. But again, *that* aggression is not the same as a play growl.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

RonE said:


> Growls, like barks, come in all sorts of variations. Once you've heard your dog truly angry, you'll realize that the growl he makes when playing with a toy or with you or with another dog is a different sound altogether.


I agree. In games of tug, or when we're playing a little roughly than usual, Spunky will issue a small growl. Nothing dangerous, as can be seen from the rest of her body language. However, one night I was studying alone at home and my dogs were keeping my company. Suddenly Spunky (who was lazing under my feet) darted to the side door and growled this deep, guttural growl I had never heard from her before. I knew she wasn't growling at me but I had never seen her that "serious" about anything - then, I saw a man running out of my yard.



Poly said:


> Unfortunately, too many owners tolerate these behaviors and others because they like to think they "understand" them.


What's your point? That my dog is an aggressive dog? I can't deny that she was aggressive towards that stranger in my yard. But let me tell you, I have no problem with it. I was alone in the house - I'm 18, only slightly taller than the average gnome - and Spunky's growl was exactly what scared that guy away.

Spunky has NEVER shown any sign of aggression towards any of my friends, guests or even strangers at the gate. She is friendly to the postman, the guy that comes with the electric bell, the repairmen that come round occasionally - she barks at their appearance till I give the "okay" and then she is as friendly as can be. When we play tug, she growls, and when the game is over I pet her head, say "That's enough", put away the toy and we settle down for a nice quiet cuddle. My dog growls during play, but she takes her cues from me; that's all I ask of her.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Edit Again: Video works now. 



And this is a quiet play growling moment. Usually, he's thrashing the toy around, wacking it off the ground, chucking it across the room, all while sounding like the hounds of hell. 

I've found his squeaky toys up on my desk already.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Poly said:


> Training is not about controlling "feelings" - it is about teaching behaviors. You don't have to know what your dog is "feeling" in every situation - even if that were remotely possible- which it isn't.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


So basically we're just coming from entirely different foundations with the same ultimate goal: neither of us wants our dog to be aggressive. 

When teaching a dog to be non aggressive I prefer to figure out why any aggression is taking place so I can begin desensitizing for permanent results. I find this is the safest and most reliable way to achieve sustainable results. 

This isn't a question of tolerating aggression, this a question of how to correct it. No one here is saying "Well, if my little fluffmuffin growls at me when I reach for his food bowl, he must just really want to keep it. I don't want to hurt my poochie-poo's feelings, so I'll just let him have it." To suggest that we would tolerate that sort of behavior is insulting and baseless. Are there owners out there that do? I have no doubt. However, I don't think they are participating in this discussion.

Even if you are correct in saying that ANY growling is aggression, no matter what: how are you correcting this in such a way that you are completely confident that you have ended the aggression itself (not just the growling) without understanding the reason for the growling in the first place? Ending the vocal manifestation of the problem doesn't mean you fixed the problem.


I think this is a breed you may wish to consider in the future:


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Poly said:


> Training is not about controlling "feelings" - it is about teaching behaviors. You don't have to know what your dog is "feeling" in every situation - even if that were remotely possible- which it isn't.


I completely disagree. In fact, I'd say this kind of approach is exactly the reason why dogs are abused, rather than trained. Classical conditioning rules in ALL training situations. So if your dog doesn't like you or your training, the dog WILL respond with growls, perhaps barks, and even worse bites. So I disagree, training is all about feelings. If it weren't, why would we use the dog's motivations to teach them the behaviors we want?



> (1) popular trainers and training books that emphasize dominance over leadership for too many situations.
> 
> (2) touchy-feely dog owners who are so concerned about their dogs feelings that the training they do - if one can call it that - is close to worthless.
> 
> Sorry to get on my soapbox here, but I have seen too many dogs thrown into rescue situations - or worse - by these ways of thinking.


I completely agree with #1. I disagree with #2, as it's more about not knowing how to train, not so much about what the owner is feeling.



> Because a growl is not a bark - it is a _*different**_ behavior. Especially if it is directed toward a person. And since it is a different behavior, it has to be treated differently.


It is a different behavior, of course, they are obviously different by sound. What you are doing, however, is giving growls more intent than barks...this, after just saying you don't care what the dog is feeling, yet you give the dog malicious intent? That's hypocritical, is it not? Growling just happens to be the behavior the dog chooses, and regardless of your experience, you can not explain why one dog chooses a growl when another dog chooses a bark. You have to be aware of the context, your dog's body language, and especially what's going on in the dog's environment to have a clearer definition of what's going on. 

My dog rarely barks. When eliciting play, she will often growl, however. Nothing is more amusing than her gurgling with her football in her mouth. Surely you're not saying this is wrong or should be corrected. Surely there are growls that ARE acceptable, if not all. 



> If a dog is growling while playing with someone, then we have in some sense an aggressive behavior. That isn't "labeling" - that is a fact. Is the aggression directed at the toy or at the person? Are you sure? Because if you aren't really sure, you'd better treat the behavior and not some "understanding" of it. And with a tug-of-war game, there is often no way to be really sure.


I'm sure, because I've always been in control of the game. To not understand that growling is a motor skill, which is elicited in certain situations, like play, is to not understand the nature of dogs. I expect growling when playing. Dogs growl when playing with each other, as illustrated in the video I left in this thread. Certainly they will growl when playing with humans too. To label it as aggression, when it's clearly not, is labeling, not fact. It's not the growling that defines aggression, it's the context. 



> If a dog is clearly growling at a person - say, a new houseguest - then I don't care what the dog is "understanding" nor am I going to try to figure it out - that is just unacceptable aggression.


Honestly, with this kind of approach, you'll never know how to remedy the problem, and frankly, your corrections could be exactly what is exacerbating the situation. Pavlov is always sitting on your dog's shoulder, and if you don't address Pavlov, you will ruin the dog. There are different types of aggression, fear aggression being one of them (aggression respondent to emotions). By nature dogs fear novelty, and they do not generalize well. This is what would keep them alive in the wild. So, growling at a new house guest should be expected. But, it can also be avoided even before the house guests arrives. 



> If a dog growls at his owner for moving his food bowl or taking away his toy, again I'm not interested in any "understanding" - that behavior should not be tolerated.


Then you're not interested in why dogs resource guard, and how to remedy it. That's a shame because it is a dog's nature to resource guard, it's written in their genes, and to not understand this is to not understand dog behavior. If your dog is resource guarding, your dog doesn't understand that you control all the resources. This is the owners problem, not the dogs. The dog is forced to live in our world, therefore, it's the owner's responsibility to show the dog what will be the most rewarding, first. Only after we've done that, would we need to correct the dog when he failed to follow the path we've laid out for him. But I've rarely seen a dog that didn't choose the most rewarding path. 



> Unfortunately, too many owners tolerate these behaviors and others because they like to think they "understand" them.


I'm not speaking to being anthropomorphic...which I believe you are. To which, I completely agree. What I am speaking to, is applying the rules of learning theory, addressing both Pavlov and Skinner. You want to ignore Pavlov and demand Skinner. This will work for some dogs, but will fail for most.


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## The Muttlies (Nov 24, 2007)

The problem with people not knowing the difference between a play growl and an aggression growl is very serious.

I've had someone HIT and KICK Nala at the dog park before. She is a very vocal dog when she plays. She growls, barks, and carries on. Some IDIOT thought she was being aggressive and hit her with a retractable lead and KICKED her right infront of me.

Two things wrong with that. 1. She was not doing anything wrong. She was just playing and if at any second her growls turned into aggression growls, I would have removed her from that situation. She just kind of stopped and looked at the guy like "HEY, what was that for? " 2. Even if she WAS aggressive, you do not resolve that with your own aggression (hitting.) He's LUCKY she hasn't a single aggressive bone in her body or else she could have turned around and bit him.


Dog growls are like human children crying. Sometimes the crying is just fake and for play. Sometimes the crying is sincere and real. As parents you learn to differentiate the two. There is a huge difference in dog growls and something you DO learn to understand when owning dogs.


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## chevy23 (Dec 6, 2007)

when the dog growls when shes playing its a playful growl. if you were to see your dog playing with another dog with a rope she would growl, but its just a playful growl and not an aggressive growl.


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