# HELP! Advice or suggestions. for a VERY REACTIVE 6 month old Belgian Malinois



## JDAVIS (Dec 15, 2013)

Hello all! 
I am new to the forum and am reaching out due to the situation I am in with my dog Beau. This may be a little long to get the background but please bear with me because I could really use some advice!

Beau is a 6 month old Belgian Malinois. I got him from an incredibly reputable breeder, I met with her and the mother and father dogs several times. All of their dogs were very well trained and had sweet, loving, stable temperaments. 

I brought Beau home when he was 8 weeks old. Almost immediately, I socialized him. We were enrolled in a puppy kindergarten class, I brought him around a lot of people and other dogs I knew were vaccinated. 
Right from the start, Beau was very shy. It took him a few days to really warm up to me and my husband, and at our first class at kindergarten, Beau was so shy he stuck to the wall the entire time and did not venture out to interact with the other dogs or people. But we kept at it, brought him everywhere we could and by the third class, Beau was the star pupil and playing with all of the dogs and greeting the people without problem.
Once he was vaccinated we took him to book stores, home depots, pet stores, etc. usually 3 times per week. I knew that socialization was extremely important.
Unfortunately, as he became older, and our activities changed to routine walks, his reactivity was really coming to light.
Beau is NOT DOG AGGRESSIVE AT ALL. In fact, when he is around dogs, like at the off-leash dog park, it is one of the few times I can truly relax and trust him. He has never once shown aggression towards another dog.

His reactivity is focused on humans, typically strangers, as well as any moving object like a car, skate board, bike and (I know this sounds strange) especially blowing leaves. 
He tries to control the trigger by barking, growling, lunging etc. 
At this time, walking him normally is incredibly stressful because anyone approaching us head on is a trigger to Beau and he becomes very reactive. 
When it comes to strangers not on a walk, he has been fairly predictable lately. If he enters a new area, he is typically fine with the new people there, he may be a little hesitant but he does not react. However, as soon as more people/strangers arrive, Beau immediately reacts to them, and has unfortunately even gone as far as biting someone.

Now the good thing is, Beau is incredibly smart (or atleast I think so ). Obedience wise, he has been a gem to train and picks up any new trick or command often within minutes. 

I have been in contact with a wonderful trainer since before I had even picked up Beau. She has guided me through many techniques to redirect Beau when he is reactive and to get him under threshold.
Unfortunately, nothing has really been effective. Although food motivated, it is not enough to redirect him from the trigger- I've even tried fried chicken! 
And today I reached a very low point, because for the first time, my dog bit me. Something he has NEVER done in the past with me.
We were out for a small walk, Beau saw a trigger and immediately became reactive. I tried to redirect him by quickly changing our direction and path a few times. He was still incredibly reactive and took that out on my leg that was right next to him. 
No real harm done. As with his previous bites, he does not bit hard enough to leave a mark or break skin. 
But nonetheless, I am very disheartened and a bit at my wits end. 
My trainer believes that the next option to try is an ecollar since most of our corrections were only further stimulating him.
I have done a bit of reading on it, the pros and cons and personal opinions of other dog trainers.

I have every faith in my trainer- she is a true professional who deals with all kinds of behavioural dogs. I know she would not recommend this if she didn't trust it's methods.

So my question to the forum is- has anyone had a dog with similar problems? What worked or didn't work for you? Have you tried ecollar training?

PLEASE any insight or even support is appreciated at this point!!!!!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I would never use an e collar in this situation it will only further stimulate..

Mals are a breed that are extremely high strung (it is their most powerful super power) that they have compared to other breeds. they have to learn to handle and use such intensity sensations stimulus. Can you overwhelm a pup with too much stimulus before they are ready to handle it "yes" From what you said about your breeder, the breeder is the first person I would be working with and asking advice even taking the pup back for the breeder to work with the both of you. Me personally not worried about your pup, your beyond the breaking point of what the pup can handle, trying to do too much and causing more frustration because your applying corrections. And its not working just escalating the situation instead of solving the situation to build on it and move on. Me personally would take a step back, and find a way for your pup to have a rest.. I have pulled pups from activities because they were not ready to handle them, (not having fun),, let them stay home, work with them for skills and small adventures and brought them back to class when they were a year old. There is such a thing of too much forced socializing that can have a negative affect on a pup and it will cause a nervous pup.. Do feel your pup can recover.. I would be interested in hearing what your breeders opinion of the situation has been.. Taking a step back in training that is not working and letting a dog just rest, with no stimulus is the best for them to re group balance, then ease them back into introduction of the outside world..


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> *I would never use an e collar in this situation it will only further stimulate.*.
> 
> Mals are a breed that are extremely high strung (it is their most powerful super power) that they have compared to other breeds. they have to learn to handle and use such intensity sensations stimulus. Can you overwhelm a pup with too much stimulus before they are ready to handle it "yes" From what you said about your breeder, the breeder is the first person I would be working with and asking advice even taking the pup back for the breeder to work with the both of you. Me personally not worried about your pup, your beyond the breaking point of what the pup can handle, trying to do too much and *causing more frustration because your applying corrections.* And its not working just escalating the situation instead of solving the situation to build on it and move on. Me personally would take a step back, and find a way for your pup to have a rest.. I have pulled pups from activities because they were not ready to handle them, (not having fun),, let them stay home, work with them for skills and small adventures and brought them back to class when they were a year old. *There is such a thing of too much forced socializing that can have a negative affect on a pup and it will cause a nervous pup*.. Do feel your pup can recover.. I would be interested in hearing what your breeders opinion of the situation has been.. Taking a step back in training that is not working and letting a dog just rest, with no stimulus is the best for them to re group balance, then ease them back into introduction of the outside world..


I absolutely agree with Patricia (especially the bolded comments): e-collars and corrections are not going to help and likely will make the situation worse.

There is some good information about reactivity in this thread: Links, books, blogs etc for reactive / leash aggressive dogs and similar. Reacting to moving objects could be herding instinct that needs to be channeled into appropriate behaviors.

I would also contact your breeder for advice and contact a behaviorist (not just a trainer) for assistance. 
Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists
Find an Animal Behavior Consultant
American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (primarily trainers, but some have been certified as dog behavior consultants)


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Well, you've got a drivey dog.....fun!

I don't necessarily agree that an ecollar will necessarily further stimulate, but I do agree that it isn't the best place to start. You need to work on some impulse control, and try to teach the dog to work below threshold, and change that threshold when it starts being able to handle things. What I mean by threshold (not to be condescending, but just in case you haven't heard the term used much) it is the point at which your dog starts to react, which can have to do with distance, intensity, volume, etc. It can be very situational and vary on the day or even moment depending on the mindset of your dog. You need to get so your dog can at least SEE the stimulus and not react (ears perked or whatever is one thing...but not physically reacting). Using tug, or a toy might be a good thing to use as a "treat" for this, although if you can find that excellent food that might be better way to go, I personally find using a toy or something that physically exciting makes it a little harder to keep the dog calm afterwards (although it can give a bit of a physical outlet for the reactivity, which can help). If you can see the stimulus, and you can get your dog to sit or down, that is an excellent step. Once you start getting some decent behavior with the stimulus in sight, decrease the distance, or increase the intensity (for instance if it is a bicycle that is moving that sets your dog off, start with just seeing and approaching a bicycle with no one on it....then have someone sit on it, then have someone very slowly move it....though as you increase the intensity, you might want to increase the distance at first, just to be safe). Basically look into BAT.

Keep in mind, your dog still is a puppy, might be going through a fear stage and needs to learn how to react to these things appropriately, it is all still fairly new and IMO, this isn't the time to use an e collar to "correct" or deliver a punishment for the wrong behavior. Also, Malinois can be a pretty tough dog. A minor correction can just be nagging and be ineffective, a correction strong enough to be effective and get its attention, IMO, might be a bit much to use. As for the e collar use.. Well...I will say it can help with this, but only once your dog knows how to react appropriately generally to whatever makes it react, it isn't a good idea to just outright punish a dog for the wrong reaction, rather if your dog has had the ecollar used to reinforce a sit (for instance), if the dog reacts the wrong way to something you tell it to sit, and it doesn't then you reinforce the lack of the sit....NOT reinforce the reaction (does that make sense). However, this is only after your dog has made some serious progress with its reactivity. I do use e collars with my dogs, so I am not against them, but I do think that especially with any reactivity, you need to work on that in a positive way for a long time and really get some results before that route is taken. Many people say that e collars use fear and pain to control....to a degree I will agree with this (if used correctly IMO, it shouldn't ever be more than mild discomfort...for the exception of emergency situations where the alternative is worse), and I will say that using ANY degree of fear or pain to control a dog that is reacting (which might be out of fear!) isn't a great start, it can make some awful connections with things in the dog's head. If you do opt for an e collar, look into the different ways it is used, and make sure that you thoroughly talk to the trainer regarding how they want to use it. Even if you trust your trainer, and they are excellent in every other way, some still have the 'fry-em" mentality, which IMO can have some awful, and potentially dangerous side effects.Last thing your dog needs to think is that seeing the mailman means pain.....what happens the day that the collar isn't there. Not a pleasant possibility. 

Either way, do some positive BAT style training to start (it might mean your dog sees the stimulus at a huge distance and you just have to stand there until it stops reacting! It could be 30 seconds, it could be 10 minutes....this will take time and patience). Give your dog some great exercise before a training session so it isn't wired, keep searching for the treat that your dog hugely loves (could be chicken hearts, could be cat kibble...). Please try to get some results with positive work before you do any true physical corrections, whether with an e collar or otherwise, if you put in the work and the time you may not even need to use any punishment, it takes more time, but in this kind of situation, I think it is worth it.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Good advice above. mals by nature are human reactive. Fearfulness is not a good trait of course. What lines is your dog from? Knowing previous litters and how they turned out is a plus. 
Food drive tends to be much lower than prey drive, have you tried redirecting with a ball or tug? Have you worked on focus at all?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

juliemule said:


> What lines is your dog from? Knowing previous litters and how they turned out is a plus.


This is a really good point, are they from working lines? If so, and if previous litters are "working" in one sense or another it may help to connect with those owners and maybe even get your dog into some work...whether it be Schutzhund, or any other sport, the reactivity is an issue of course with any sport, but getting started might help with a good (and controlled) outlet for your dog's drives in the future. Cookieface makes a good point as well (I think we posted at the same time), a behaviorist might be a good idea. It would be better to contact a behaviorist now, and catch the issue and deal with it in puppyhood. It'll probably result in fewer sessions, and the behavior won't be as ingrained. Try to find a behaviorist who is familiar with not only the reactivity issues, but also with Malinois, they do seem to be a breed with some very particular traits and the familiarity might help a great deal!


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Unfortunately, I think you are experiencing part of the reality of this breed. When they fixate it can be very difficult to redirect them. Keeping them "under threshold" can be near impossible because many escalate from zero (no reaction) to 60 in mere seconds. That grey zone, where the dog notices the trigger but doesn’t react, it can be a VERY narrow margin for these dogs. BAT and all of that... it works, it's not a bad thing, however, I'll say something that's very likely going to be unpopular: I have not been impressed with its effectiveness in dogs like this, at all. Nor have I been impressed with the ability of behaviorists to handle these kinds of dogs, and by that I mean the working type Shepherds. Most of them have not seen a dog that escalates so quickly, they don't understand the role of aggression/reactivity in these dogs. They have no idea how hard it can be to keep a dog like this "under threshold" in every day life, they don't understand the importance of drive and drive building for a dog like this. I have modified the behavior of reactive dogs using BAT and counter-conditioning protocols, so this isn’t me spitting on the methods at all. It’s just that treating them like an average pet dog... it just isn't always realistic, and a trainer or behaviorist who lacks the experience to see that... well, I've seen them get these dogs killed. So I have to be honest about this, I just have to. Flame me if you must.

I will tell you that in my honest opinion, the most important thing is that you work with a trainer who has dealt with Malinois before and has experience with kind of problem. I will even go as far as sharing the unpopular opinion that I would be less worried about methods, clickers, cookies, e-collars, whatever... and I would worry more about if they understand these dogs, their drives, and the role of their drives in helping them overcome their fears or nerve issues. These dogs need black and white rules (this is not a comment on methods, positive or otherwise), clear input from the handler, and very defined idea of what you want from them. I have not seen that BAT, and generic counter-conditioning protocols are very useful for these dogs at all, if I’m being blunt. It has to do with the nature of the breed and impracticality of implementing these protocols in real life with a dog like this. And I think it means something that everyone I’ve talked to with experience in this breed has seen the same things.

A Malinois is meant to do a job. They are dogs who are strengthened by drive, and made whole by being given a task to do. Without that, they are merely tops spinning out of control, as you're experiencing right now. Do you tug with him? Does he fetch? Have you done any drive building to focus him on toys? Also, as julie asked, have you done any training teaching him to focus on his handler?

For this dog, step one for me would be some bang up obedience, even if you can only teach it around the house. Do some basic drive building (if you need help with that, just holler, and I’m happy to share info) for a favorite toy, and start doing obedience in drive. Sit, down, a proper heel, solid stay, and eye contact on command. Working on impulse control is key as well. (Again, if you need info, just ask.) Once this is good, taking it to the street is the next step, just briefly. You teach that he doesn’t focus on strangers, he focuses on you and his ball.

Step two is teaching this dog to wear a muzzle comfortably. It’s usually easily done with food. Try the Baskerville Ultra muzzle. They’re cheap, sturdy, and you can feed treats through them. A dog like this simply needs to be ok with a muzzle for practical purpose IMO.

Now, re: the bite to someone entering the house… I know his parents were friendly but not all Mals are, especially when it comes to strangers entering the home. You need better control of this dog but I also think you need to be realistic in your expectations. They are fairly natural guard dogs. Your dog is also struggling with fear issues, which are not good, as Julie said, but… if you have lots of visitors and were hoping for a dog would be social with them, you may not have the right breed for your lifestyle, unfortunately. You may need to seriously adjust your expectations. 

I am not trying to be harsh, I just really, really want you to get the help you need. If I send you a private message, would be open to sharing your location with me? I may be able to point you to people who can help.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Great points Emily!
I personally don't know a ton about Mals, I've met a couple, and do know that they very much are a breed that takes some knowledge and experience to do well with (and I also know, that although I like a dog with some drive, they are definitely not my thing, I like Shepherds, working ones too, but Mals are...different). I will say though, although regular BAT may not work, because of that short window, and the level of drive it might work to basicaly wait out the reaction (so long as that is safe), and once the dog realizes that that isn't going to work, and it finally gives up and calms down (for real calms down, not takes a break from reacting), THEN give a treat and work that way. I've done this with Caeda with a few situations and it has seemed to help....although she doesn't redirect bite (of course adding a muzzle into the mix might help there). It is just a thought.... PLEASE correct me if this is a really bad way to go about it, like I said, I've never dealt with a Malinois personally, but that approach has worked in some situations with Caeda (actually with Dexter too) when there is no window or room to move on threshold.

I have heard rumor that many police agencies used Malinois for a while, but have started moving away from the breed and back to Shepherds....perhaps this likelihood of reactivity is part of the reason (though I've also heard they don't do well with extreme temperatures either...).


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## JDAVIS (Dec 15, 2013)

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!! I truly appreciate all of the insight. I would like to reply to a few comments and just give some more information on Beau.
Beau comes from both work and show lines. I have been in almost constant contact with out breeder since we got him.
I did a lot of research before I decided to bring a Malinois home. I was 100% expecting a crazy, intense, high drive dog that I would need to give a job and PLENTY of exercise. I even began training with a local SAR network before Beau was old enough to join so I could give him a job.

But instead I got an incredibly mild mannered Malinois, who sleeps for quite a bit of the day, is not destructive whatsoever and goes into a practical coma after even just a small 20 min walk. He does have very intense prey drive, and his attention spand and focus has been a marvel, I have never thought I could train him so easily when it came to obedience.

As to Patricia's comment- Since his reactivity has become an issue, we very rarely take him for a normal walk. We always try to avoid these triggers whenever possible. However, we live in a complex and taking him out to do his business, we can't always avoid strangers or a bike that comes zipping around the corner.

As to BAT training and other training. Again as I said, I was in contact with my trainer from the beginning and have been working with Beau on major obedience since. We have participated in 2 puppy training classes and he was truly the most focused and achieved the most control. With 100% confidence, Beau knows, sit, down, stand, out, leave (boundry training), spin right and left, bow, LOOK, leave it and off. Recall, and longer stays are probably at 80% as he is still a puppy but we are working on that. Obedience wise, he knows his stuff. 
As to counter conditioning, positive reinforcement and BAT training. Trust me, we have been working on all of these techniques and have gotten absolutely no where. My trainer would not suggest the ecollar if we had no exhausted many other options. Those who may find me skeptical for saying this, please read Emily118'S response.
Emily thank you for your input. You have validated that his breed is often too intense for these kinds of conditioning. It is exactly as you said, that it is almost impossible to get him under threshold once he is there, and he can react in seconds.

I have tried MANY types of food and treats, from chicken liver, to cat treats to good ol' take out fried chicken. It may grasp his attention for a split second-just long enough to swallow it- and then immediately focuses back on the trigger.

Although Beau has very high prey drive, his toy drive is on the lower side. I tug with him all the time, and he likes it, but not nearly enough to redirect him in that situation. I am trying to get him to play fetch, but it hasn't worked so well. He will very often go get the item but immediately lays down and starts chewing on it. lol. I have tried some basic methods to get him to bring it back, but if anyone has anything more creative please let me know!!!

Emily 118- I understood what getting a Malinois meant as far as general temperment and natural protective instincts. I do not need my dog to be a social butterfly, truly. But I am mostly concerned with safety, of the people we encounter as well as himself. I will look into the muzzle you suggest and again I really appreciated your input as you really seem to understand what I am dealing with. I will always be working with him on obedience and will look into a muzzle but do you have any other suggestions on how we can over come this?


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

JDAVIS said:


> THANK YOU EVERYONE!!! I truly appreciate all of the insight. I would like to reply to a few comments and just give some more information on Beau.
> Beau comes from both work and show lines. I have been in almost constant contact with out breeder since we got him.
> I did a lot of research before I decided to bring a Malinois home. I was 100% expecting a crazy, intense, high drive dog that I would need to give a job and PLENTY of exercise. I even began training with a local SAR network before Beau was old enough to join so I could give him a job.
> 
> ...


I will send you a private message sometime before the end of the day, if that's alright with you. I understand what you are dealing with. Take heart, it's workable with the right approach.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> I have heard rumor that many police agencies used Malinois for a while, but have started moving away from the breed and back to Shepherds....perhaps this likelihood of reactivity is part of the reason (though I've also heard they don't do well with extreme temperatures either...).


Nah, I don't think that's true. Malinois are still widely used. They do tend to be thinner nerved than GSD often times but their drive can carry them through almost anything. I'm curious about the temperature thing... mine handles heat better than most GSD I know and is not troubled by cold. Mals also as a breed tend towards better joints and a longer working life.


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## JDAVIS (Dec 15, 2013)

That would be absolutely fine Emily thank you.
Is there anyone on the forum that has used ecollars with reactivity and had success?

I really can't say enough wonderful things about my trainer. She has worked with Mals, although I couldn't say she has specialized in them. She has worked with numerous shelter dogs that were scheduled to be euthanized due to aggression or other behavioural problems and does not give up on any dog. 
She trains service dogs as well as SAR dogs and is also a fantastic horse trainer. I trust her judgement and I have faith in her decisions. However I really wanted to reach out to this community to further educate myself on other possible methods and connect with people who have experienced a similar problem. I need some hope! lol


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

JDAVIS said:


> That would be absolutely fine Emily thank you.
> Is there anyone on the forum that has used ecollars with reactivity and had success?


Many people here are opposed to ecollar use in general and not familiar with protocols used to address aggression humanely. Most people here seem to perceive the tool as a way to hit the dog with a punishment so severe the dog is terrified into avoiding the trigger. They do not have to be used like that, though, and there are minimally aversive ways to modify reactive behavior with them.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> Many people here are opposed to ecollar use in general and not familiar with protocols used to address aggression humanely. Most people here seem to perceive the tool as a way to hit the dog with a punishment so severe the dog is terrified into avoiding the trigger. They do not have to be used like that, though, and there are minimally aversive ways to modify reactive behavior with them.


that would be true never seen an e-collar approach promote anything but avoidance and fear,, and using it on a already 6 month old fearful un confident pup is just my opinion not where I would go to build the confidence this pup doesn't have to build on


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## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

As far as the E-collar goes, my grandparents used it on both of their malamutes with success. They have a fairly large property in vermont and nothing made those dogs happier then being able to run around in the fields and such. What they used however was not a shock collar but an e collar that emitted a beep. They could control the beep volume as well. A soft beep they used as a recall device as the dogs were allowed to run around pretty far, a louder beep was used as a correction tone if they went TOO far. Both Bandita and Licky were very good with the E collar they used. I don't think its a bad tool if used properly, because with their dogs it sometimes took that loud BEEP in order to get them to snap out of what they were chasing and come back to them. If used responsibly I think its quite a dandy tool


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

In the mean time, regarding drive building, since he’s not a high drive dog, my first step would be to pick up all the toys in the house. No free access to toys. He can have chew stuff, nylabones, antlers, and such, but no interactive toys. No balls, no tugs, no stuffies. These things become much more valuable once he can’t play with them at will.

Then I’d find a toy that really does it for him, whatever that is. And he only gets to have really short, really exciting interaction with that toy. Also, you can crate him for 10-15 minutes before and after, to make the play session really exciting.

When interacting with the toy, follow a few rules:

The toy always moves like prey. A rabbit does not jump into a dog’s mouth, it moves away. Movement is key. Snap the toy away as the dog reaches for it and make a fun noise.

The dog earns the toy by displaying the behavior you want. So since we’re building drive, when the dog shows intensity or makes a great effort, he should “win” the toy. If not, no dice, try again pup! 

Frustration builds drive! In this case, it’s ok to have a dog that’s offering barking, squealing, etc. We can control that later, right now it’s all good as long as it’s directed towards the toy.

Sessions are short and you stop while the dog is “hot.” Meaning, you stop when the dog is really into it, to leave him wanting more. You don’t want to let him get bored. So short sessions, and stop when the dog is really invested. I usually tease the dog up and put them up on a miss, or when they slip off the toy. 

I start sessions by acting like what I have is the BEST thing in the world. For my Cocker mix, I would hold the tennis ball behind my back and say, *gasp* “What is this? What do I have here? Is it something you want?!” You have to be as excited as the dog is supposed to be. 

A flirtpole is a really great tool for drive building. You can make one from PVC, but I prefer to buy a lunge whip and a toy without stuffing (the Skineez toys work well). Both can be purchased on Amazon. I do find that once they are into the routine with the flirtpole, you can start to use another toy, like a tug, with the same technique with good results. But flirtpole is the way to start, especially since your dog’s prey drive is more geared towards “real life” prey than toys at the moment. The flirtpole may help you bridge that gap.

Once the dog is very invested in the toy/activity, you can start to add control to the mix, but at first, it’s all go go go get your toy! Once you get to that point I have lots of ways to work on impulse control as well that I am happy to share. My Mal is high toy drive so I did almost no “building” and a LOT of control control control. She is very spun up around toys even without typical drive building techniques (little monster, lol) so in order for me not to get bit and for her to keep her head we do LOT of impulse control work. But anyway, that comes later.

Here are a few videos that give you gist of using positive reinforcement to help a dog accept and enjoy a muzzle.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FABgZTFvHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJTucFnmAbw

I did not watch them all the way through (confession, lol) but they are from decent sources and should help you get the idea. The muzzle in the second video is the one I recommended to you, the Baskerville Ultra.


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## JDAVIS (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you again Emily. I actually already have something like a flirt pole that Beau goes crazy for. Unfortunately he only really goes crazy over that one toy (i think because its dragging like real prey as you said). I will work on transitioning that excitement onto other toys. What exactly do you mean by impulse control though with play situations. Beau knows "out" and he drops the toy instantly, but I believe your idea of control involves more than that. Please elaborate so I can begin to look at what should and should not be acceptable for my dog when we play.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

JDAVIS said:


> Thank you again Emily. I actually already have something like a flirt pole that Beau goes crazy for. Unfortunately he only really goes crazy over that one toy (i think because its dragging like real prey as you said). I will work on transitioning that excitement onto other toys. What exactly do you mean by impulse control though with play situations. Beau knows "out" and he drops the toy instantly, but I believe your idea of control involves more than that. Please elaborate so I can begin to look at what should and should not be acceptable for my dog when we play.


I know you're asking Emily on this one, but I'll stick my head in for a sec....

One thing you can work on is trying to get your dog to stay (yeah, I know its a tough one, especially for a puppy...) while you drag the flirt pole toy around, then release to chase it. Even if you can manage to leave it "dead" on the ground as a start for a second before releasing to chase that might be a start. Work up to being able to drag it a little, then to being able to swing it around while your dog stays... If the dog goes for it, before being released it gets raised out of reach and they have to try again. Start with maybe one or two seconds, work up from there. I'd go for starting with the dog in a "down" though....I found it is WAY easier for them to stay in a down than in a stand, or even a sit, but your dog may prefer sit. 

Work on the long down as well, working on the long down with Caeda I would put her in a down and I would start jumping and dancing around her and the challenge was for her to stay while I did that, then I would try it with tossing toys around. She isn't a super crazy drivey mal, but she is an independent one and wants the fun, but I got her to the point that at Schutzhund someone tested her long down by running around with a toy and actually calling her name and saying "come"....she didn't budge until I said so.....she didn't manage a feat like that until she was over 2 though! So it takes a LOT of time and practice. Honestly, getting some of the self control to wait for a flirt pole and do a long down with distractions will likely help (Caeda isn't reactive, but it certainly helped her self-control a ton for many situations!). 

Oh, and Emily, as for the Malinois and the temperature, I think it was an RCMP officer that mentioned it to me or someone who had a litter whose dogs went to the RCMP....I can't quite remember, they weren't an authority on it, but "knew some people" involved in the K9 units or something. It wasn't a country wide thing, it was something that was considered by some detachments I believe. Mind you, some parts of Canada we can get 40 C in the summer (rare but it happens....and it is usually humid), and also -40 C in the winter. I can see any dog having a hard time on one end or the other, heck the humans have problems with both ends of it lol.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes and they are famously very intolerant of handler mistakes (hence the redirecting on you when you correct him) in fact thats why you see many police and army dogs in training with muzzles on. 

I love mals but I would never own one ... because their temperaments can be all over the place ... even with a good breeder and the pressure (on me) to not "screw the dog up" would be horrible LOL. 

Instead of a treat (sine some dogs dont respond to treats, I have one who doesnt) does he have a fave toy, like a plushed toy or a tug toy that you can use to redirect his attention and use it to reward him (through play) when he listens? 

Sorry I dont have more suggestions ... I have never had a dog that reactive, so all I can do is regurge information I have read elsewhere LMBO.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes and they are famously very intolerant of handler mistakes (hence the redirecting on you when you correct him) in fact thats why you see many police and army dogs in training with muzzles




Wow, where did you get that gem of knowledge? Police and military dogs wear muzzles many times for liability reasons regarding interactions with the public. Muzzle work is also often an important part of apprehension training in police and military dogs. If a dog has a serious handler aggression issue, it is not fixed or dealt with by muzzling. 

Yes, Belgians tend to be less tolerant of rough handling and unfair corrections than say a GSD. But they're hardly handler aggressive as a rule and not all redirect either.


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## JDAVIS (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you GreaterSwiss! 
I work with Beau on stay with many levels. I can run around him, turn my back, even jump over him and he will not budge until I say so. I even throw toys around to try to get him to be distracted but he understand he cannot. However I have not introduced the flirtpole with this exercise and it may be extremely helpful when dealing with impulse control in the real world. So thank you for the tip!!
And OwnedbyACD's- I stated in a previous response that my dog's toy drive is on the lower end. He enjoys toys but this would not be enough to redirect him once he is over threshold. I have tried. Squeaky balls, plush toys, just a squeaker, ropes, even rawhides and bully sticks. He notices them but clearly makes a choice to continue reacting to the trigger.

For even more detail. Beau is not ALWAYS reactive. At the dog park for example, he happily lets people pet him and approach him. If I take him to a friends house where there are several new people, he usually does not become reactive as long as he is given a little time and space, he usually warms up and is a big sweetie.
When Beau DOES react, it is showing at least some kind of pattern. Again, if I take him to that new house, with new people and he warms up to them, but as soon as new people have entered that home, he immediately reacts to them. 
His other triggers are people approaching head on during a walk, as well as moving objects like cars, bikes, runners etc.

I can take my dog to petsmart, home depot and other places with very little incident as long as I am aware enough to avoid obvious triggers like a crowded aisle or a person in a wheel chair. If Beau sees someone for a longer way off, he is alert but does not react. For some reason, those other specific situations, send him wayy over his threshold.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Wow, where did you get that gem of knowledge? Police and military dogs wear muzzles many times for liability reasons regarding interactions with the public. Muzzle work is also often an important part of apprehension training in police and military dogs. If a dog has a serious handler aggression issue, it is not fixed or dealt with by muzzling.
> 
> Yes, Belgians tend to be less tolerant of rough handling and unfair corrections than say a GSD. But they're hardly handler aggressive as a rule and not all redirect either.


I appreciate the correction though I don't understand why you had to be so passive aggressive About it ... Oh well. I never said they were muzzled to "fix handler issues" I often see police and military mals muzzled in visits to the vets and such. 

IMO there is a difference btw drive and reactivity. ACDs have drive but are (for the most part) what I would consider "hair trigger" where the mals I have seen ... Even "pet" mals have this kind of hair trigger. I am not dissing the breed, quite the opposite, it takes a special person to own a "Ferrari dog" like a mal.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I appreciate the correction though I don't understand why you had to be so passive aggressive About it ... Oh well. I never said they were muzzled to "fix handler issues" I often see police and military mals muzzled in visits to the vets and such.
> 
> IMO there is a difference btw drive and reactivity. ACDs have drive but are (for the most part) what I would consider "hair trigger" where the mals I have seen ... Even "pet" mals have this kind of hair trigger. I am not dissing the breed, quite the opposite, it takes a special person to own a "Ferrari dog" like a mal.


I apologize for being snappy. It bothered me because you stated it like a fact under it's just not, honestly. But I do apologize for my tone. 

I am confused though because I don't see redirected aggression or handler aggression as being related to needing a muzzle at the vet's. Lots of dogs may not tolerate beingpoked and prodded by a stranger but aren't handler aggressive. I can sit on B and dremel her nails and she's just sad. A stranger is a different story. 

But anyway, I do get what you mean. I am sure some
K9's are muzzled because they'll bite. But some of that is likely a just in case liability policy.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I also didn't mean to state it as a fact ... I just know they are often muzzled during drills and I have been told that it is due to their reactivity and their tendency to redirect. 

They are an awesome breed but I will be honest they aren't for me, which is sad because I do love them so so much.


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