# Keystone Puppies Is A Reputable Organization



## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi my name is Shawn Hostetter and I am the owner of Keystone Puppies. There have been a few posts suggesting that we are a puppy mill. I am here to tell everyone that we are not. We are an advertising agency for Keystone Certified breeders. We go to every breeders location and take pictures of their puppies to advertise them for the individual breeder. We make sure that the puppies are well taken care of. If we are uncomfortable with a breeder or their breeding practices...we will not advertise for them. We also highly recommend all of the breeders who advertise on our website give their puppies a 1 year genetic health guarantee. The state law only requires them to give a 30 day guarantee. We even discount the breeders who give the 1 year guarantee because it is that important to us. We stand behind our breeders but we also stand behind the customers. We are a small company with only 4 employees and we are all dog lovers and understand that a puppy/dog is a member of your family and we strive to provide happy, healthy puppies! Please reply to this thread if you have any questions/concerns/comments.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Do these breeders health test all their breeding dogs? Do they put titles on any of their dogs? Do they breed for temperament and health, not for money? Are they trying to better the breed? What are their goals?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So, tell us what kind of living conditions and health testing the breeders are required to provide for their dogs. How many times may the bitches be bred? How large of pens are required? What kind of cleanliness standards do you require? What happens to their breeding dogs when they're no longer good for breeding?


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Okay, I'll bite...what are your *specific* criteria for evaluating whether or not to endorse a breeder?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Do any of your breeders show their dogs in conformation shows or prove them in sports, work, or other ways? Are they striving to better the breed? Do they health test (not just get vet checks)?

Are you aware that a one-year health guarantee is basically useless, as many serious issues don't manifest until a dog is at least two years old?

Do you honestly think that good breeders would rather pass their dogs off to a broker to sell rather than find suitable homes themselves and be able to stay in contact with the new owner forever, plus take their dog back if the new owner couldn't keep it in the future?


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

We advertise for many different breeders. Some health test, hip certify, eye certify, have Champion Bloodlines, ect. Some don't. Our main concern is that the puppies are healthy and taken care of properly. I have had a litter of Cavachon puppies in my house and they didn't have a title or all sorts of clearances...but they were completely healthy and loved more than you could imagine from both me & my wife and our four children. Anybody who breeds and sells the puppies is doing it for the monetary gain...it may not be their sole reasoning...but they are making money off of it. Thank you.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

How do you know they're completely healthy without health testing? And if you do it right you don't make money off of breeding, you're more likely to lose money than anything.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

The one year health guarantee is not useless. We just had a friend who purchased a Rottweiler through a different website and at 6 months old he has hip dysplasia and needed a $6000 surgery. His dog had Champion Bloodlines but only came with a 30 day health guarantee.

We are not a broker. We do not have any puppies where we are located. We just picture the breeders puppies and advertise for them. The customers go directly to the breeders houses to purchase the puppies unless the puppy is shipped.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So what SPECIFIC steps do you take to ensure the breeding dogs are healthy and taken care of properly? Or do you not care about the breeding dogs' welfare, only the puppies? What specific steps do you take to ensure the puppies are healthy and taken care of properly?

Why would a breeder who does all health testing sell to a broker instead of selling directly to the new owners themselves? Wouldn't a caring breeder want to pick out the puppies' new homes personally? What steps do YOU take to ensure the pups go to good homes? ETA: So, not a broker. Just an advertising service like craigslist? So what does "we receive new arrivals on a regular basis" mean?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Many, MANY genetic health problems INCLUDING hip dysplasia can show up years down the line.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

"Champion bloodlines" is meaningless. It's a phrase that crappy breeders use to make themselves look better to uneducated buyers. Champion status only matters if the breeding dogs themselves are champions. Just because they had a grandparent or great-grandparent that was a champion, that doesn't make them breeding quality. Both of my dogs are technically from "champion lines" (all of their parents were champions), yet neither of them is breeding quality. If I'd left them unaltered and bred them, I would not be improving their breeds.

Good breeders evaluate their litters and carefully choose which pups will go on to show and potentially breed, while the pet-quality pups go to pet homes on a spay/neuter contract. There are pet-quality pups in almost every litter, even those from the best champion parents.

Good breeders breed as a hobby and for the love of a breed. They are rarely making money, and if they are, it's certainly not enough to live on. Much of the time, they're breaking even or even losing money. 

You made the mistake of registering for a forum full of educated dog owners, many of whom are responsible breeders. Your arguments won't sway people here.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Champion bloodlines means nothing. The champions could be 4 or 5 generations back



> Many, MANY genetic health problems INCLUDING hip dysplasia can show up years down the line.


Yup. At the very least, GSDs should be screened for hip and elbow dysplasia before breeding, and possibly screened for degenerative myelopathy


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm just... going to go ahead and subscribe to this thread...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I'm just... going to go ahead and subscribe to this thread...


Yep! Me, too.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

so I was wrong for breeding my healthy cavachon dog?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> so I was wrong for breeding my healthy cavachon dog?


So you aren't going to answer questions about the living conditions of the breeding dogs?

And being that Cavaliers have a zillion genetic health issues and Bichons tend to a few themselves, yes, breeding untested stock would be wrong. Hope your pups don't have any of those problems (many of which don't manifest for several years).


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Keystone Puppies said:


> so I was wrong for breeding my healthy cavachon dog?


So... You say the dog was healthy but do you have any proof of that via health testing?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kayota said:


> So... You say the dog was healthy but do you have any proof of that via health testing?


And a vet exam isn't health testing. Given the number of health problems in cavs, especially? There should be a LOT of them.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Willowy said:


> So. . . you aren't going to answer questions about the living conditions of the breeding dogs?


...or questions about how you determine the health status of dogs without health testing?


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

This dog is barking up the wrong tree.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

We advertise for many different breeders. Some may have one dog others might have more. some can be house pets others can be farm dogs. Was were just at an Akita breeders the other day and he lets them roam free around the farm. The bottom line is we only advertise but we do not advertise for people who do not care for their animals. A lot of our relationships with our breeders are done in good faith and with trust. They understand what we stand for


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

What an odd thread. 


I'm not sure if I'm more disturbed to see a Cane Corso or a "cockalier" for sale on a website. I think I'll be equally disturbed by both.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> so I was wrong for breeding my healthy cavachon dog?


How old was it when you bred it?

Are you familiar with the major health problems affecting cavaliers? Are you aware at what age these usually manifest? Did you have your dog screened for these issues?



> Heart mitral valve disease (MVD) is a terminal illness which afflicts over half of all cavalier King Charles spaniels by the age of 5 years and nearly all Cavaliers by age 10 years. It is CKCSs' leading cause of death.





> Syringomyelia (SM) is reported to be "very widespread" in the cavalier King Charles spaniel breed. Syringomyelia is a disorder of the brain and spinal cord, which may cause severe head and neck pain and possible paralysis.


http://www.cavalierhealth.org/


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

How would you know that a random client out of your many clients posted on this forum...so quickly...are you perhaps a member here under another name?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Fade said:


> How would you know that a random client out of your many clients posted on this forum...so quickly...are you perhaps a member here under another name?


It's not that uncommon for businesses to google themselves regularly to look for bad reviews and such.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

At least this company's got the balls to come here. Not convinced, but very interesting....


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

I have had contact with the purchasers of the puppies and they said they are all doing great and were very thankful for all we did for them. Chloe's first litter the one couple still invite me and my family over for cookies. her and her husband are elderly and said their dog really livined up their home


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, well. I didn't realize that _cookies_ were involved.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Oh, well. I didn't realize that _cookies_ were involved.


Ah yes, didn't you know all was good as long as cookies were involved.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

What a joke, stop deluding yourself.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't understand why a dog needs to be show quality to receive quality love


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

sassafras said:


> It's not that uncommon for businesses to google themselves regularly to look for bad reviews and such.


I should know that I do it all the time for my business ^_^

On another note. No matter how you try to argue it "key stone " puppies you cant represent so many breeders and keep tabs on all of them especially with 4 employees. How do you know the breeders are breeding healthy puppies? Health checks aside. How do you know they are not over breeding their bitches? There is so many ethically wrong things when breeding dogs and there are only a select few breeders that do dot their I's and cross their T's. how do YOU know? You could be encouraging dogs that might be put to sleep in 5 years for bad hips..its a terrible thing for a dogs life to end because it was bred so badly it cant walk before it hits middle age.Which has nothing to do with "show quality". HEALTH. Actually all the show standards is what originally spread all these bad genes in the first place. they are now starting to make light of the horrible outcome of breeding dogs to look a certain way rather then focusing on their health. Thankfully that is slowly slowly changing. If I spend 1500 on a dog its not because I am looking for a champion its because I am looking for a dog that will live a long healthy life.

and love won't be enough to save a GSD who loses mobility at 5 yrs old from bad breeding. You should do some research into genetic disorders and purebred dogs. Its an interesting research topic and it will shock you...hopefully it will shock you. You can start by looking up boxers and Cancer. or hip dysplasia or search doberman health.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I don't understand why a dog needs to be show quality to receive quality love


It's a good thing nobody said that, then, isn't it?

Just to be clear: We're talking about which dogs are deserving of passing on their genetic material to future generations, not which dogs deserve to be loved. ALL dogs deserve to be loved. Only a relatively small percentage deserve to be bred.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I have had contact with the purchasers of the puppies and they said they are all doing great and were very thankful for all we did for them. Chloe's first litter the one couple still invite me and my family over for cookies. her and her husband are elderly and said their dog really livined up their home


Let us know what they say when their dog dies young from a heart valve defect. . .


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Every dog deserves love, doesn't mean every dog deserves to be bred.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

mashlee08 said:


> Every dog deserves love, doesn't mean every dog deserves to be bred.


Ding, Ding, Ding. Exactly.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I don't understand why a dog needs to be show quality to receive quality love


Can you point out where anyone said that?

We all love our dogs, mutts or show quality or pet quality or whatever, but only (proven) healthy dogs should be bred. You can't prove their health unless the proper testing is done.

"Trust" and "faith" are not good ways to deal with breeders. There are SO many puppymills out there, how do you know whether the breeders you represent are puppymills or what?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You know what I love about this thread? I love that it's going to show up high in Google search results for Keystone Puppies, because DF is a very big and popular forum. I hope that anyone who's considering buying a puppy through a broker like this decides to do more research and go directly to a responsible breeder instead. Here are some resources that discuss reputable breeders:

http://www.hkc.org/breederchoice.htm
http://rufflyspeaking.net/were-responsible-breeders/
http://rufflyspeaking.net/i-dont-want-a-show-dog-i-just-want-a-pet/
http://rufflyspeaking.net/how-much-...ies-cheap-puppies-and-a-bunch-of-other-words/
http://rufflyspeaking.net/puppy-buyer-ettiquette/
http://www.showdogs.org/Bellcrest/littercost.html
http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

LMAO, I know this is a serious topic but I can't just help but laugh at what this guy was thinking coming here, with that mentality defending himself. You shoulda just waited for the heat from the other thread to die down.

Now to the subject. We aren't saying show quality only, I couldn't give 2 craps if tucos great grampa 2 times removed was world champion show dog, what we are talking is legit health testing. You cannot keep tabs on that many breeders, in fact I'm fairly sure that even the stupidest breeder could manage to hide excessive breeding of bitches as well as any genetic health issues from you easily. All your company is doing is promoting and covering breeders with likely very bad breeding practices that will contribute further to problems with the breed


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

Don't understand why all the bashing and assuming. I'm guessing most the people here are all about show quality dogs. If that is the case are your dogs bred for looks or for life expectancy. For example the show quality boxers are large and are more prone to cancer and heart conditions. Also I knew of breeding practices in show where the was a lot of interbreeding? What are your view on interbreeding?


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Oh and yes it was very wrong and irresponsible of you to breed those dogs if yours since both breeds have common issues and I doubt you had any ofa clearances of heart, hips, eyes, etc for either dog. -_-


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

I see your from Canada I just shipped a lab their last week. The guy was thrilled


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Don't understand why all the bashing and assuming. I'm guessing most the people here are all about show quality dogs. If that is the case are your dogs bred for looks or for life expectancy. For example the show quality boxers are large and are more prone to cancer and heart conditions. Also I knew of breeding practices in show where the was a lot of interbreeding? What are your view on interbreeding?


gosh have you even read anyones posts? No one cares about show quality dogs. HEALTH quality dogs...no one has said a single thing about show quality dogs.

I think your just trying to ruffle peoples feathers at this point... opcorn:


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Don't understand why all the bashing and assuming. I'm guessing most the people here are all about show quality dogs. If that is the case are your dogs bred for looks or for life expectancy. For example the show quality boxers are large and are more prone to cancer and heart conditions. Also I knew of breeding practices in show where the was a lot of interbreeding? What are your view on interbreeding?


Lol interbreeding hasn't been an issue with reputable breeders we are supporting here in many many many years, the issue with inbreeding has been with these bad backyard breeders who YOU are making money off of. I guarantee you most of the people here don't have show quality dogs. 

Your establishment has clearly been tarnished and the member on the other thread proves your logic in why your business isn't irresponsible is flawdd


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Don't understand why all the bashing and assuming. I'm guessing most the people here are all about show quality dogs. If that is the case are your dogs bred for looks or for life expectancy. For example the show quality boxers are large and are more prone to cancer and heart conditions. Also I knew of breeding practices in show where the was a lot of interbreeding? What are your view on interbreeding?


I suppose you mean inbreeding? How do you know your breeders aren't inbreeding? More faith and trust? 

I'm not at all about show quality dogs. My dogs are mutts/pet quality and I did not breed them. I'm all about healthy and well-cared-for dogs. I would be against a show breeder who is producing unhealthy or uncared-for dogs as well. Does the fact that there are other bad breeders out there justify bad breeding practices?


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Run and hide while you still can because these threads will be on google for a very long time 


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Keystone Puppies said:


> We advertise for many different breeders. Some health test, hip certify, eye certify, have Champion Bloodlines, ect. Some don't. Our main concern is that the puppies are healthy and taken care of properly. I have had a litter of Cavachon puppies in my house and they didn't have a title or all sorts of clearances...but they were completely healthy and loved more than you could imagine from both me & my wife and our four children. *Anybody who breeds and sells the puppies is doing it for the monetary gain.*..it may not be their sole reasoning...but they are making money off of it. Thank you.


that statement right there is your mission statement that people looking for a puppy needs to hone in on...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I see your from Canada I just shipped a lab their last week. The guy was thrilled


Yep, he'll be super thrilled if he has to drop $6000 on hip replacements before the dog is 2. What did the breeders do to minimize the chance of that?


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

I guess I'm a bad breeder or back yard breeder or whatever you want to label me as for breeding our cavachon. But it was an awesome experience for my 4 children And the peoples who purchased our puppies

I think the mother was hip certified excellent


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Reputable breeders usually loose money,they don't gain any money from there pups. 
It cost thousands of dollars to health test, show,care for ect for there dogs. Another question if a buyer no longer can care for a pup what happens to if? I highly doubt you guys even know.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Don't understand why all the bashing and assuming. I'm guessing most the people here are all about show quality dogs. If that is the case are your dogs bred for looks or for life expectancy. For example the show quality boxers are large and are more prone to cancer and heart conditions. Also I knew of breeding practices in show where the was a lot of interbreeding? What are your view on interbreeding?


Nice try, dude. Some members here have dogs from show breeders, but many have (or have had) mixed breeds or purebreds from rescues or oops litters or other beginnings. Nobody here thinks that mixes or non-show-dogs are "less than" show dogs. What we are saying is that many dogs make lovely pets, but are not structurally, genetically, and/or temperamentally sound enough to be breeding dogs. 

AND of course not all show breeders are good breeders, which is why it's not a good idea to choose a specific breeder _just_ because they show. You need to research the breed you're considering, talk to several breeders, find out which health tests are strongly suggested for those breeds, and make sure you're spending your money on the healthiest pup with the best guarantees from the best beginnings that you can. 

In some breeds, you may not want to go with a show breeder -- you may want a Siberian husky from someone who raises dogs for racing, or a border collie from someone who raises dogs for herding, for example. But you DO want a puppy from dogs that are structurally and temperamentally sound. Sports trials, day-to-day work, and conformation shows are all ways for a breeder to prove his or her dogs.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

How would you even find that people were calling keystone puppies, a puppy mill.
Am I missing something? 

Sorry but in no way do I find Keystone Puppies reputable

1.) Many genetic diseases show up after a year of age

2.) How is breeding dogs for money reputable? A reputable will lose money, not gain money. So earning a good amount breeding dogs, says something. 

3.) Breeding so called "designer dogs", is in no way reputable... 

4.) Chamipon Bloodlines mean crap.A term used by many unreputable breeders.

5.) Every dog should be loved,but most "loved" dogs shouldn't be bred. A showing dog shows the dog is conformationally correct( to meet thr standard),& that it has the correct temperment.

6.) Every dog being bred needs to health clearances, it shows the dog is free of those test genetic problems.

Edit:
Forgot about proving the dogs temperment.
7.) Working & sports trails are very important also.It PROVES the dog can perform
what it's bred to do,& that the dog has genetically stable & sound temperment.
Edit:wow I'm slow at typing... When I got to this thread,there were only around 20 replies.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

^^You sly genius, you


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Right now go volunteer at a shelter and watch dogs be put to sleep one after the other and get back to me on that breeding thing and how you feel so good about it. Go take your children to watch puppies be put to sleep, day in and day out. And show them the tragedy that is happening in shelters all over the world. Then tell me that what you did was ok. 

If you can feel good about yourself after that you really do not give a dam.


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I see your from Canada I just shipped a lab their last week. The guy was thrilled


OH WOW YOU SHIPPED A DOG TO CANADA, IM SORRY ABOUT EVERYTHING I SAID TO YOU, I TAKE IT ALL BACK, THAT CLEARLY MEANS YOU ARE REPUTABLE, I don't freaking care if you shipped to buckingham palace, your establishment is a load of junk that only promotes bad breeders and covers them behind one fun little establishment.


Clearly that guy is thrilled, most of the crap that goes wrong, will pop up in the next few months to a year, sure it may end up fine, but it might end up with 10 grand hd surgery too, and judging by your standards of breeding I'm not having alot of faith here


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I guess I'm a bad breeder or back yard breeder or whatever you want to label me as for breeding our cavachon. But it was an awesome experience for my 4 children And the peoples who purchased our puppies
> 
> I think the mother was hip certified excellent


Oh, well as long as your kids got to experience the miracle of birth, that makes it _totally_ okay to breed un-health-tested dogs that have a high chance of developing severe health issues at age five or so!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I think the mother was hip certified excellent


Nice, I guess. Depending on her ancestor's hip ratings. But if dad has bad hips, not much use. 

Have you taken your children to the shelter to see what happens to puppies who don't find homes because of an oversupply caused by bad breeders? That's all part of the breeding experience. . .

And, yes, everybody is thrilled to have a puppy. 5-10 years later, let us know how they're doing.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

Clearly that guy is thrilled, most of the crap that goes wrong, will pop up in the next few months to a year. I thought someone posted a 1 year guarantee is useless because most defects don't occur until after a year AYE! Just a bunch of bullies


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I guess I'm a bad breeder or back yard breeder or whatever you want to label me as for breeding our cavachon. But it was an awesome experience for my 4 children And the peoples who purchased our puppies
> 
> I think the mother was hip certified excellent


you "think" the mother was hip rated excellent, what about the dad? It doesn't madder if your dog has the best hips In the world, if you breed to a displastic dog, sorry little guys, not getting mommies hips. 

Ok even if the hips are fine, heart clearances? Eye? Long genetic history? Elbow?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Just a bunch of bullies


Oh, the bullies line! That always seems to crop up when we provide facts and opinions that go against what the OP is trying to argue. Funny how that works.


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Clearly that guy is thrilled, most of the crap that goes wrong, will pop up in the next few months to a year. I thought someone posted a 1 year guarantee is useless because most defects don't occur until after a year AYE! Just a bunch of bullies


I was thinking more in terms of displatia, it's true I forgot to account for cancers, heart defects, kidney issues. Yea I bet your wishing I forgot about that stuff 


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Clearly that guy is thrilled, most of the crap that goes wrong, will pop up in the next few months to a year. I thought someone posted a 1 year guarantee is useless because most defects don't occur until after a year AYE! Just a bunch of bullies


Hip dysplasia can't be properly diagnosed before the dog is fully grown. What will you do for him if the dog is diagnosed with HD at age 2? What will you do for the dog if the owner can't keep him after 3 years? Good breeders always take a dog of their breeding back and finf it a new home. Do the breeders you represent do that?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Oh, the bullies line! That always seems to crop up when we provide facts and opinions that go against what the OP is trying to argue. Funny how that works.


I was wondering how long it was going to take for it to pop up. lol.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Comes onto forum promoting puppy farms and BYBs, then calls people bullies. *facepalm*


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