# Litter of Puppies Gagging, Hacking, & Snot Nosed!



## Runnin' S Ranch (Jan 31, 2013)

Hi, I had a litter of lab puppies born 01/11/13.

They have snotty noses and a cough that is more like a hacking and gagging cough. 

Here is the story.

At 9 Days old: 1 of the puppies started having a congested breathing sound.

AT 10 days old: Several of them were breathing like that. 

At 11 Days old: 2 of the puppies started the cough, (Hacking gagging sound). I called the vet and we put them on Clavamox.

By 15 days: their cough would not stop! They would wake up coughing. Their cough was very constant. 

At 17 Days: I took them to the vet. She said it sounded like Aspiration Pneumonia and gave them a shot of penicillin. She said they are happy healthy fat puppies. They did not act sick whatsoever. The cough slowed down in some and completely stopped in others. 

By 19 Days, the cough came back in all of them. 

Today is the 20th day, I've gotten another round of penicillin shots to give them tonight. They have been on Clavamox since the 23rd. They take it morning and night. I have not seen any improvement whatsoever. 


I don't know what else to do. Please any and all ideas are appreciated!


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Find another vet and get a second opinion.


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## oldhounddog (May 31, 2010)

Runnin' S Ranch ,

I agree with Hambonez find another Vet right away.

Any nasal discharge that is cloudy, yellow, green, or has an odor should be looked at 
by a Vet post-haste.

Please post back and let us know what you find out... 


oldhoundog


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

What contact have you had with other dogs before/after this litter was born? In adult dogs, I would say this sounds like kennel cough....meaning basically the common cold. I've never dealt with it with puppies before. Incubation period is around 7-10 days. In adult dogs, pretty much all you can do is put up with the hacking and coughing, keep them away from other dogs to avoid spreading (highly contagious), because it is a VIRAL problem...antibiotics are useless. But now your very young puppies have been put on two strong antibiotics, which can actually lead to certain health issues in adulthood.

Are your puppies in a warm, draft-free environment? 

You said the vet said they are "happy healthy fat" hmmm....maybe fat (which can be good, unless the fat bellies are due to worm infestation) but certainly doesn't sound like happy and healthy.

I agree with the others...get a second opinion from a different vet practice, and I would back off the antibiotics until you do that. I would keep a close eye on them to ensure they are suckling with vigor, and watch them closely otherwise simply to give the new vet every bit of information you can.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Justdogs said:


> What contact have you had with other dogs before/after this litter was born? In adult dogs, I would say this sounds like kennel cough....meaning basically the common cold. I've never dealt with it with puppies before. Incubation period is around 7-10 days. In adult dogs, pretty much all you can do is put up with the hacking and coughing, keep them away from other dogs to avoid spreading (highly contagious), because it is a VIRAL problem...antibiotics are useless. But now your very young puppies have been put on two strong antibiotics, which can actually lead to certain health issues in adulthood


Sorry, this is wrong. Kennel cough is (mostly) caused by bortadella... which is a gram-negative _bacteria_, not a virus. There are viruses (and fungi) which cause nearly-identical symptoms and also tend to get grouped as kennel cough and antibiotics would not work on those, but generally kennel cough is caused by bacteria. Bacteria usually have long incubation periods - hence the 7-10 day latency. Short-lived viral infections (like the common cold or flu) generally have much shorter incubation periods.

I second Hambonez suggestion - get a second opinion. Clearly the antibiotics WERE working, since the puppies got better but it sounds like the initial dose of penicillin just wasn't enough to completely kill it off, or the infection is being regularly tracked in from an outside source.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Ginger, thank you for the info concerning bortadella, but I never intimated the condition was bortadella. But again I thank you for the info, because it caused me to go on a flurry of research! Always a good thing. So far, however, I've learned a couple things which again will hopefully make the OP to try a new vet. The antibiotics prescribed by vet of these puppies is not the indicated antibiotics indicated even if it were bortadella and whether it is or isn't bortadella...from what I've researched so far, no antibiotics are indicated UNLESS there are other more dire symptoms other than the hacking and discharge, such as lethargy or not eating...but the OP said those things aren't an issue...which is why I told him/her to thoroughly observe these puppies. 

Again....these are REALLY young puppies....under three weeks, and I'm not sure even my research so far even addresses puppies that young. However, I've been in dogs long enough to know from other breeders/rescue folks that certain antibiotics given to puppies this young CAN cause problems later in life, such as eye problems and teeth/enamel issues. At least if you have to give antibiotics, might be helpful if they were actually the RIGHT antibiotics. In puppies this young there are many other respiratory diseases which could be at play. So far, everything I've read has been toward IF this is "kennel cough" regardless of origin (bacterial or viral, and the consensus seems to be a soup of both) it is a self-limiting disease.

I agree it is odd that the initial dose of antibiotics worked for a couple of days...so I would certainly have to question management. 

But again...thanks Ginger...I learned something new!


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Have your had your breeding mentor come down to look and see what they think?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Justdogs said:


> Ginger, thank you for the info concerning bortadella, but I never intimated the condition was bortadella. But again I thank you for the info, because it caused me to go on a flurry of research! Always a good thing. So far, however, I've learned a couple things which again will hopefully make the OP to try a new vet. The antibiotics prescribed by vet of these puppies is not the indicated antibiotics indicated even if it were bortadella and whether it is or isn't bortadella...from what I've researched so far, no antibiotics are indicated UNLESS there are other more dire symptoms other than the hacking and discharge, such as lethargy or not eating...but the OP said those things aren't an issue...which is why I told him/her to thoroughly observe these puppies.
> 
> Again....these are REALLY young puppies....under three weeks, and I'm not sure even my research so far even addresses puppies that young. However, I've been in dogs long enough to know from other breeders/rescue folks that certain antibiotics given to puppies this young CAN cause problems later in life, such as eye problems and teeth/enamel issues. At least if you have to give antibiotics, might be helpful if they were actually the RIGHT antibiotics. In puppies this young there are many other respiratory diseases which could be at play. So far, everything I've read has been toward IF this is "kennel cough" regardless of origin (bacterial or viral, and the consensus seems to be a soup of both) it is a self-limiting disease.
> 
> ...





> I would say this sounds like kennel cough....meaning basically the common cold. I've never dealt with it with puppies before. Incubation period is around 7-10 days.


Bortadella is causitive agent of kennel cough, which is really more of a set of symptoms or a syndrome than a disease, I think (because there are multiple causative agents). Not trying to start an argument, just stating why I brought up bortadella. 

The antibiotics were probably a preventative measure (that seem not to have worked). I'm also confused as to why the vet would order amoxil (Clavomax) AND penicillin - they're very related antibiotics and if one isn't working, its likely the other won't work either. That said, IMO antibiotics would be better than no antibiotics since puppies that young won't have much of an immune system yet, and antibiotics will help to kill anything else that might be attacking their system, in addition to whatever is causing the cough. I'm wondering if the vet took X-rays? An X-ray would help definitively determine whether or not they have pneumonia vs another respiratory infection as it should be visible on the films.

I still think a second opinion, or at the very least more tests, would be in order.


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## Runnin' S Ranch (Jan 31, 2013)

We did an X-Ray which shows slight mild Pneumonia. We sent a blood sample off to test for Distemper. I have a hard time believing it could be distemper because all they have is a cough and runny nose. They're not lethargic, they're not vomiting or having diahrea. And they are eating just fine. 
What about Canine Influenza? It wouldn't show up in the X-Ray, and it wouldn't be affected by the antibiotics as the antibiotics are for secondary infections. 
I called and got a second opinion by a highly recommended vet. He said that he would be taking the same path that my vet is taking but if problems persist he would be glad to look at them.

Saturday I started them on a nasal spray and sucked the snot out as best I could with the baby bulb thing. Yesterday (Monday) I noticed a big difference. There cough has almost completely disappeared and the congestion seems to be sounding quieter.


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