# Brachycephalic Breeds and feeling guilty about wanting one



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

For the record, I'm not a fan of the show standard for these dogs. I don't think they need to have super flat faces but... I love Pugs, Bulldogs, and Boston Terriers and everyday I run into people trying to make me feel guilty of wanting to get one because of how unhealthy they are and their health issues. They try to make it seem like these dogs are abused because they're simply allowed to live and that ALL of them are in constant pain and ALL of them cannot breathe.

How do you cope with people who hate your preferred breed(s)? I know that health issues exist in the breeds I like and I'd like to see more breeders work on improving them... I dunno. I guess I just needed to vent.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Eh... Don't feel bad. I don't think they should be bred as they are now, but I also don't hate them and wouldn't be opposed to owning one. Dogs like your Charlie can be perfectly healthy.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Those people are idiots, that wouldn't know a well bred brachy breed if it bit them in the butt. I take offense to comments like that big time. My dogs are not in constant pain, they are not miserable, they are not walking diseases, they are not ticking time bombs, they are not abused (that really infuriates me). I have heard it all. 

I own bulldogs, they breathe just fine. Do they pant yeah sure, after they have run my 1.5 acre yard. Do I leave them outside long in the heat, no but my weims don't care to stay outside in high heat either. It doesn't take long for my bulldogs to calm down once they are back inside. 

Those people who say things like that, need to talk to the long time breeders in those breeds. They might learn something. Good breeders are doing their best to breed healthy dogs. It is because of those good breeders that OFA now recognizes a test for Tracheal Hypoplasia, right now only for Bulldogs, Frenchies, and I think Bostons, but could easily be open up for the rest.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Those people are idiots, that wouldn't know a well bred brachy breed if it bit them in the butt. I take offense to comments like that big time. My dogs are not in constant pain, they are not miserable, they are not walking diseases, they are not ticking time bombs, they are not abused (that really infuriates me). I have heard it all.
> 
> I own bulldogs, they breathe just fine. Do they pant yeah sure, after they have run my 1.5 acre yard. Do I leave them outside long in the heat, no but my weims don't care to stay outside in high heat either. It doesn't take long for my bulldogs to calm down once they are back inside.
> 
> Those people who say things like that, need to talk to the long time breeders in those breeds. They might learn something. Good breeders are doing their best to breed healthy dogs. It is because of those good breeders that OFA now recognizes a test for Tracheal Hypoplasia, right now only for Bulldogs, Frenchies, and I think Bostons, but could easily be open up for the rest.


Thank you for your comment. It makes me feel a whole lot better. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this frustrated when people make comments like these. I would really love to get into showing and possibly even breeding boston terriers in the future but it's just annoying when people are against you.


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## Boleyn (Aug 25, 2008)

Oh yes! When I tell people I have Pugs, I always get the concerned, "Ooo, don't they have lots of health problems?". Mine are all adopted via rescue and I don't think I have been an luckier or unluckier than people with other breeds. Mine breathe fine too. I am not one to recommend Pugs to other people very often, so I usually just shrug and say, "mine are just fine" and change the subject, lol. I get more offended by the "so ugly they're cute!" comment, I hate that line.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Charlie gets that A LOT. She's always so ugly and cute to everyone.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't see any ugly... I just see cute!


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## Boleyn (Aug 25, 2008)

Exactly, Kayota! If someone says that to me, I reply, "She/he's not ugly." I understand that people have different preferences about breed appearances - despite Pugs being my heart breed, I adore sighthounds! But how could anyone call these faces ugly:


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm not even interested in brachy breeds but I too tire of the attitudes surrounding them. I've heard some outlandish things, especially regarding show breeders/show lines. Do some people just breed for ribbons without regard to health or temperament? Yes. Do all "show breeders?" HELL. NO. I've actually heard people suggesting they'll go to a BYB or get a rescued brachy breed because "They'll be healthier!" Why? Because the snout will be 1/2" longer and that must mean they're "healthier." SMH

A friend/coworker of mine breeds and shows Frenchies. She is super aware of her dogs' health, and not only does all requisite health tests but takes into account things like spinal x-rays (Frenchies have some interesting vertebrae issues), or the width of a dog's nares (nostrils). As in, if she's considering breeding a dog with nares that are on the narrow side, she'll look into lines known for producing healthy, open nares, etc. If people really think they're going to get a healthier dog from a BYB, just because the snout is a tiny bit longer... well, they're in for a surprise, that's all I'll say. 

You shouldn't be ashamed of being interested in the brachy breeds! Are they the healthiest? No. Many are pretty high maintenance in the health department, that's true. But IME they're not falling apart at the seams either, and many are happy, active, spunky dogs. And other breeds that appear healthy also suffer from insane cancer rates that mean they rarely live past 8. But those people escape comment because it isn't obvious, I suppose. You'd be surprised what health issues can lurk in breeds with moderate appearance. What's more, if you are passionate about Bostons, for example, then get involved in breeding and showing, and breed the healthiest, happiest Bostons you can.

Anyway... sorry you're catching flack. As I said, I'm not a brachy breed person but nobody deserves to get crap about their breed(s) of choice, especially since most of it stems from ignorance.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I love pugs! My mother in law has 3 of them and they are all pretty old and haven't had any health problems that I've known of. That's too bad that people feel like they need to put you down for liking them. Emily made a good point that there are a lot of breeds that can have health problems but it's just not as noticeable as the flat faces.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Well said Emily! People think Roxie is kind of ugly too


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I think you should be careful when getting one,so I do try to warn against badly bred ones. Also it matters if you have the money as well what kind of location you live at. My neighbors pug needed nasal surgery that cost $3000 as a puppy,so having some money just in case would be a good thing. I have seen well bred and badly bred ones,so its important for people to search out those good ones. Being aware of health issues will help the breeds,some people just don't want them to become worse off.
I`m not into them,and don't think more breeds should be bred that way,but their not hopeless or miserable 24/7.
Also I don't see any real issues in Boston terriers,but I think their needs to be more good breeders on Pugs and especially English bulldogs. There's also adoption,even the biggest tight wads won't object to that.

I support better breeding with my favorite breed,Rottweilers as well. Some say bad things about them like being ugly,lazy,dumb,unhealthy and vicious. Which some are,but I try to net that get to me sense I know theirs good ones out there.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I realize I'm in the minority within this thread, but here's my two cents:

I don't think there's many people out there who "hate" the brachy breeds, or who "hate" individual dogs. Even the woman who made Pedigree Dogs Exposed likes purebred dogs and just wants to make sure that health is a main consideration in their breeding (don't believe me - visit her blog). The reason so many people are upset is that dogs are being bred for extremes (such as very short muzzles), and there can be health consequences associated with this. For example, the $3000 nasal surgery for the pug puppy that Foresthund mentioned above. I wish this sort of thing was rare, but unfortunately it's becoming more common. Owners can end up sinking a lot of money and emotional energy into treating these conditions, and the dogs can suffer. Are there healthy individuals out there in every breed? Yes, I don't think anyone is arguing that. But the chances of getting a dog with some major health concerns are higher in many brachy breeds.

I would never consider owning a brachy breed for this exact reason - I don't want my dog to be physically limited, especially by a characteristic that was purposely bred in to the lineage based on human ideals of beauty.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I realize I'm in the minority within this thread, but here's my two cents:
> 
> I don't think there's many people out there who "hate" the brachy breeds, or who "hate" individual dogs. The reason so many people are upset is that dogs are being bred for extremes (such as very short muzzles), and there can be health consequences associated with this.
> 
> I would never consider owning a brachy breed for this exact reason - I don't want my dog to be physically limited, especially by a characteristic that was purposely bred in to the lineage based on human ideals of beauty.


this this this. GLM I edited out some of what you said just because these are the main points I agree with.

And quite honestly.... I am glad (so glad, seriously) that the good breeders now are breeding with health in mind, but it remains that they are now backtracking to fix a dog that humans created in the first place.

I don't _agree _ with brachy breeds, I won't own one, but I'm not going to rally against other people owning them, and I'm certainly not going to rally against responsible breeders like Chaos who are trying to do the right thing.

I just think its sad that the dog was made so extreme in the first place. There is a reason my favorite dog is a lab- they are about the most middle of the road dog you can think of, in almost every aspect.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Emily1188 said:


> You shouldn't be ashamed of being interested in the brachy breeds! Are they the healthiest? No. Many are pretty high maintenance in the health department, that's true. But IME they're not falling apart at the seams either, and many are happy, active, spunky dogs. And other breeds that appear healthy also suffer from insane cancer rates that mean they rarely live past 8. But those people escape comment because it isn't obvious, I suppose. You'd be surprised what health issues can lurk in breeds with moderate appearance. What's more, if you are passionate about Bostons, for example, then get involved in breeding and showing, and breed the healthiest, happiest Bostons you can.


Pretty much that.

Plenty of breeds are moderate LOOKING but unhealthy. The retrievers really don't have a great record either- flatcoats and goldens both have tons of cancer. Flatcoats in particular. Their lifespan is pretty bad. 

I just think its weird that so much focus is on the look of the dog. The focus should be on longevity and a dog being able to lead a healthy life.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Rescued said:


> this this this. GLM I edited out some of what you said just because these are the main points I agree with.
> 
> And quite honestly.... I am glad (so glad, seriously) that the good breeders now are breeding with health in mind, but it remains that they are now backtracking to fix a dog that humans created in the first place.
> 
> ...


Please don't get me wrong... I agree with you both that the standards for some of these breeds have gone to some crazy extremes (this is why I'm having issues trying to find a breeder that health tests but also likes to look outside the box and try to better the breed) and I can understand why many people don't agree with them (heck, I don't agree with the way some of them are bred either) but I'm talking about people who think these dogs shouldn't live because they look so "deformed". They instantly assumed to be in consistent pain and constantly sick and nothing you say will sway them. Just because they LOOK differently instantly means that they're ill and cannot breathe whatsoever (which is silly because Charlie has a very short snout but has absolutely ZERO issues breathing because she has large nostrils)


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I was presented this today and while it's nice that they show people what CAN happen to an poorly bred pug, they assume the dogs on the bottom of the page are healthier because they have longer snouts (Charlie looks a lot like the black one and she's not perfectly healthy which makes it amusing to me). It makes it seem like all Pugs, no exception (even health tested one), will be this unhealthy because of how they look.

https://imgur.com/gallery/BzkzO


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## mholmes000 (Oct 6, 2012)

Love the Brachycephalic Breeds. I owned a Boxer during the 90's and currently have a 9 1/2 year old Frenchie and a Belgian Mal. My Frenchie is in great shape…he may go 9 1/2 more. Who cares what others think anyway!


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I take no issue with breeders who breed with health in mind, especially when I have Cavaliers who have their own set of health issues. Pugs are neat little dogs. But wow, that picture of the skull gives one a need to wonder. I feel the same when I see MRIs of Cavaliers with SM. Love the breeds but breed with health being a priority. Just my take. If you support breeders who are strongly health conscience and breed that way, there is absolutely no need to feel guilty.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

The skull shown in that link I feel is a poor example of the breed. I imagine that skull came from a poorly bred dog. 


















Obviously the skull shape is extreme when compared to wolf-like dog's skull but it's much better than the one featured in that link.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Pretty much that.
> 
> Plenty of breeds are moderate LOOKING but unhealthy. The retrievers really don't have a great record either- flatcoats and goldens both have tons of cancer. Flatcoats in particular. Their lifespan is pretty bad.
> 
> I just think its weird that so much focus is on the look of the dog. The focus should be on longevity and a dog being able to lead a healthy life.


Excessive inbreeding is bad for any dog,one of the issues I do see people mention on Pugs is inbreeding. Most of the sites and documentaries about these kind of thing do talk plenty on inbreeding.
Physical build,not just the muzzle can show more obvious health issues but not all of them. I do agree sometimes they fuss over physical things I find very minor like the Bull terriers muzzle,shorter legs,or slightly roached backs.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Emily1188 said:


> And other breeds that appear healthy also suffer from insane cancer rates that mean they rarely live past 8. But those people escape comment because it isn't obvious, I suppose. You'd be surprised what health issues can lurk in breeds with moderate appearance.


I think the extreme-looking breeds garner more negative attention because their health issues stem directly from purposeful alterations of appearance to meet human ideals of beauty. For example, brachy breeds *can* have difficulties with breathing because humans have purposely shortened the muzzle to make them look cute (one hypothesis is that flatter faces appeal more to humans because they look like human babies!) On the flip side, more moderate-looking breeds may escape negative attention because their health issues are more of an indirect and unintended consequence of inbreeding. No one wants their dog dead of cancer at age 5, but that's what you get if your gene pool is tiny.

That said, I'm not sure that moderate-looking breeds escape criticism entirely. I, for one, would not consider owning any breed with an unnaturally short lifespan due to inbreeding (e.g. flatcoats, goldens, etc.) or a breed that was founded on a very small number of individuals (e.g. Cavaliers, etc.) I've warned people on these boards before about owning so-called "rare breeds" due to the risks associated with inbreeding. Mostly it falls on deaf ears, though - people will tell you that with such a small gene pool, all of the deleterious alleles have been bred out. I have a PhD in biology, and I can tell you that's absolute hogwash.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I am going to be on the flipside and say i do not agree with the breeding of Brachycephalic breeds, part of me feels like if the animal is not capable of reproducing on it's own, or even having sex on it's own, than perhaps something is terribly wrong.. I like some re-creations of the English bull dog, specifically the Renascence bulldog. I have met plenty of bull dogs and pugs whose personalities i have liked, but i have yet to meet one that could play like a normal dog (maybe i have only met bad ones) but from what i have seen i do not like... I love the personality and looks of French bull dogs, but i wouldn't purchase one from a breeder, that is a dog i would only get from a rescue, and i know a snout doesn't mean everything but i prefer the look of them when they have a slight snout.. This goes for all Brachy breeds, they all look better to me (and seem to feel better) when they have more of a snout...

And i'm sorry and i really am not trying to offend anyone, but i do not find the super short snouts or bug eyes cute at all :/


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Eh, I would never own a brachy breed, a breed that can't breed or whelp naturally, or breeds with short lifespans either. I don't even give breeds like that a second look when it comes to selecting a dog for myself. But I'm also not going to spit on someone else's choice of breed. It is awfully easy to sit behind a computer screen and say, "These dogs shouldn't exist!" or "The breeders should do THIS or THAT." It's _not_ so easy to be the people actually involved in the breed, nor do I find it productive to play armchair quarterback to those who are attempting to steward those breeds. And what people so often forget is that those oft despised "show breeders" are often the most educated on the shortcomings of the health of their breed, and are the best place to gain information. 

Own them, don't own them, I couldn't care less. But I do find that often people approach these breeds with a massive lack of perspective and a high and mighty attitude (that's not directed at anyone on this thread, just in general). As I said, it's easy when you're not discussing YOUR dog or YOUR breed.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I think some Brachy breeds are nice looking. I like French Bulldogs and Bostons but without the extremely flat faces, which I've seen some good examples of them with longer snouts. Other's, particulary some pictures of Pugs I've seen, look like they've gotten smacked in the face with a frying pan (no offense to the owners of such dogs). I just don't see why that's necessary and why any breeder or owner would think it's okay for an animals face to look like that.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I am going to be on the flipside and say i do not agree with the breeding of Brachycephalic breeds, *part of me feels like if the animal is not capable of reproducing on it's own, or even having sex on it's own, than perhaps something is terribly wrong.. *I like some re-creations of the English bull dog, specifically the Renascence bulldog. I have met plenty of bull dogs and pugs whose personalities i have liked, but i have yet to meet one that could play like a normal dog (maybe i have only met bad ones) but from what i have seen i do not like... I love the personality and looks of French bull dogs, but i wouldn't purchase one from a breeder, that is a dog i would only get from a rescue, and i know a snout doesn't mean everything but i prefer the look of them when they have a slight snout.. This goes for all Brachy breeds, they all look better to me (and seem to feel better) when they have more of a snout...


Even though I love my Bostons and English Bulldogs, I cannot even begin to explain to you how much it bothers me that it has become the norm for these dogs to REQUIRE a cesarian section to whelp their puppies (and as far as I know, it's only the French Bulldog and a few English Bulldogs that requires artificial insemination). I can assure you that my future, possible Boston will have been born of natural, complication-free means, and that s/he will (if it gets to that point) will be bred to another dog was whelped freely. I only know of ONE breeder, so far, that has a female that can do this. I'm hoping to find more. 

I personally think that if a dog could not whelp naturally due to her anatomy, then she should not be bred any further, spayed and her puppies spayed/neutered as well.



> i do not find the super short snouts or bug eyes cute at all :/


Trust me. As someone who loves these breeds, I've seen a few that are just downright.... wrong. Very poorly bred. And I do feel bad for them.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I have no idea if this dog is healthy or what she's mixed with but if Pugs looked more like this, I would have 857934857938475 of them (lol okay maybe I'm over-exaggerating... a little) She reminds me of a fawn version of my Charlie.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

She looks like a "puggle" to me...pug/beagle.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

So Cavalier said:


> She looks like a "puggle" to me...pug/beagle.


Their actually is a couple breeders out their that breed pugs like that. I've read that Brachychephalic muzzles are something you have to really select for or you will lose it in a couple generations.
I've even noticed with looking at breeders of Rottweilers that often the males would be heavy built with short muzzles while the females had obviously longer muzzles,perhaps the females went under less harsh selection on which ones where bred.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

So Cavalier said:


> She looks like a "puggle" to me...pug/beagle.


I personally don't see any beagle. 
I see a Puggle (or another pug cross, I sort of see Boston Terrier)) x purebred Pug. "Pure" Puggles often have longer (although still short) snouts with a lot less wrinkling. You can usually see a lot of the Beagle in them (especially the ears). That girl has Pug ears. Everything about her screams Pug except her muzzle is longer and her nostrils are larger.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

That's a lot of wrinkles around the face. I'm thinking they'd have to be cleaned all the time to avoid infection? Too much work for me - my tolerance for grooming is pretty much limited to nail trims.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Charlie has a similar face and has zero issues with her skin... The wrinkles don't look deep enough to cause a problem.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I am going to be on the flipside and say i do not agree with the breeding of Brachycephalic breeds, part of me feels like if the animal is not capable of reproducing on it's own, or even having sex on it's own, than perhaps something is terribly wrong.. I like some re-creations of the English bull dog, specifically the Renascence bulldog. I have met plenty of bull dogs and pugs whose personalities i have liked, but i have yet to meet one that could play like a normal dog (maybe i have only met bad ones) but from what i have seen i do not like... I love the personality and looks of French bull dogs, but i wouldn't purchase one from a breeder, that is a dog i would only get from a rescue, and i know a snout doesn't mean everything but i prefer the look of them when they have a slight snout.. This goes for all Brachy breeds, they all look better to me (and seem to feel better) when they have more of a snout...
> 
> And i'm sorry and i really am not trying to offend anyone, but i do not find the super short snouts or bug eyes cute at all :/


Seconding this; basically sums up my feelings as well.


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## Boleyn (Aug 25, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> That's a lot of wrinkles around the face. I'm thinking they'd have to be cleaned all the time to avoid infection? Too much work for me - my tolerance for grooming is pretty much limited to nail trims.


Like many skin issues, diet can play a big role in that (yeast). It's no different than paying attention to ears or as you mentioned, nails. 

As for running and playing, my Pugs (past and present, pets adopted via Pug rescue) have never had a problem with this. I keep them at a healthy weight. A LOT of Pug owners allow their dogs to become obese, as my vet frequently bemoans. Fat dogs of any breed are going to gasp for breath and have trouble getting around. Mine run in the yard, walk in the woods, wrestle on the sofa, and have no difficulties. Snoring happens, yes. However, they are healthy, happy, and active, not living a life of misery.

And now I'm going to bow out of this thread, I understand personal preference but when people start talking about them looking like they have been "smacked with a frying pan"... I'm out.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I just need to come here and say that the 'behave like a normal dog' thing bugs the daylights out of me.

My Boston is a backyard bred genetic nightmare. She's got a crazy short face, but she's also got two lux. patella, a heart murmur, allergies, a grade IV heart murmur and is deaf. Those issues come from *bad* breeding, but even with them....

She turns 7 in March. She's not a low energy dog. Her stamina is worse than the other dogs, and it's more noticeable in hot/humid temperatures, but.























































Even with all that, I'm pretty sure she's acting like a real, live, normal dog. Her energy level isn't low. It's not even close to low, even at middle-aged and with all the crap. She's not suffering. 

And while I don't particularly want another Boston, my husband does and I wouldn't hesitate to pay for a well bred one, or rescue another. This is a radical departure from where I was right after we'd first gotten Bug, but absolute truth? She's a sturdy, happy, capable, little dog. Are there health issues in the breed? Yes. Do I believe most of them come from short faces? Actually, no, no I don't. The breeding issues, yes, and I'd also be looking for an individual that could free whelp and maybe a tiny bit more snout, but general health testing would be far higher on my priority list.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

> I just need to come here and say that the 'behave like a normal dog' thing bugs the daylights out of me.


Agreed. Thank you for your post.



Boleyn said:


> And now I'm going to bow out of this thread, I understand personal preference but when people start talking about them looking like they have been "smacked with a frying pan"... I'm out.


Please don't. I (we) appreciate your input.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, and just let me say:

When I say I don't particularly want another Boston, it has nothing to do with their looks and is in no way disparaging of the breed. Bostons tend to be goofy extroverts, and as much as it makes me laugh and brings joy into my life that I appreciate, I do better with dogs who are a bit aloof and reserved. It's just a basic personality mismatch. 

And given how much joy Bug brings to the house, I hope my husband *does* get another, someday. There'd be less laughter in our home without her. I'm just not the appropriate primary caregiver.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm under the impression that like french bulldogs...english bulldogs are often bred via AI as well. They are even more "extreme" than frenchies...so I'm not sure why they would be bred naturally.

I have heard several times that the brachy breeds are a disaster and should not exist. Sigh. It's made me feel bad about the breed I love the most...but now I don't. I love them. I just do.

My boy doesn't have quite as an extreme muzzle as some. It's got a little more length to it, but he's still got a nice face I think. He doesn't have as much upturn of the jaw like some do though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Another Dog behaving normally.

And this is A teeny little one being impressive.

Thought you might enjoy this, Little Wise Owl.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

When I showed in the group at Philly this year, there was one Bulldog in group on Saturday that, quite frankly, I hated being around. The dog could barely breathe, and it was just *standing there*. He was wheezing and puffing and snorting the *entire* time he was in group. He was covered in a cooling blanket, was continually being sprayed with water, and constantly being fed ice. When it was finally his turn to be examined, he waddled and wheezed and labored up to the front of the line.

I find that pathetic.

Conversely, the dog in group on Sunday was a completely different animal, literally and figuratively. He had on a cooling blanket, and he was panting, but he did not wheeze, he didn't wobble, he did not have to be constantly looked after lest he keel over and die on the spot. He very happily waddle trotted up to the front of the line when it was his turn for examination with no trouble.

I dig that.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Xeph said:


> When I showed in the group at Philly this year, there was one Bulldog in group on Saturday that, quite frankly, I hated being around. The dog could barely breathe, and it was just *standing there*. He was wheezing and puffing and snorting the *entire* time he was in group. He was covered in a cooling blanket, was continually being sprayed with water, and constantly being fed ice. When it was finally his turn to be examined, he waddled and wheezed and labored up to the front of the line.
> 
> I find that pathetic.
> 
> ...


Agree

(too short)


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I know I've posted this dog in the past but this is my idea of an ideal Boston Terrier (although I'd shrink him just a TEENY bit)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I like this one:


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

That's a nice one too.

This is an example of a dog I DO NOT like:









This is what most BT breeders (that health test) in my area are producing. Dogs with massive heads, tiny butts, incredibly flat faces and the absolute inability to free whelp (a deal breaker, to me).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> That's a nice one too.
> 
> This is an example of a dog I DO NOT like:
> 
> ...



Oh hey, it looks like Bug, only more structually sound. 

(This is not an endorsement - at all).


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Oh hey, it looks like Bug, only more structually sound.
> 
> (This is not an endorsement - at all).


I dunno, Bug's nose doesn't look like it's almost INSIDE her head. lol And her nostrils at least look wider than slits. I'm also not a huge fan of pronounced nose ropes.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I know I've posted this dog in the past but this is my idea of an ideal Boston Terrier (although I'd shrink him just a TEENY bit)
> View attachment 129370


I really, REALLY, *REALLY* like that dog. 

I was thinking if you looked into the breeders that are doing competitive weight pull with their Bostons (who really rock in their respective weight classes, BTW) you will see a lot more moderation in muzzle and body shape. There aren't a ton and I'm not sure how much internet advertising they do, but I do know that those breeders are out there and producing dogs similar to the one pictured.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I dunno, Bug's nose doesn't look like it's almost INSIDE her head. lol And her nostrils at least look wider than slits. I'm also not a huge fan of pronounced nose ropes.


She's not *quite* that bad, no. She's got a short muzzle, but she DOES have a bridge to her nose:



















She does, however, have a tiny butt and sway back. I love her though, so it's okay.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Emmett said:


> I really, REALLY, *REALLY* like that dog.
> 
> I was thinking if you looked into the breeders that are doing competitive weight pull with their Bostons (who really rock in their respective weight classes, BTW) you will see a lot more moderation in muzzle and body shape. There aren't a ton and I'm not sure how much internet advertising they do, but I do know that those breeders are out there and producing dogs similar to the one pictured.



I'd love to go to some Weight Pulling competitions along with some other sports to find more Bostons. I was recently at a conformation show and the only two Bostons there were absolutely tiny (looked around 10-13lb), wall eyed and completely flat in the face. They were cute but not the type of Boston I'd ever want.

CptJack- I still think she's cute


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

This guy is one of my favorites. Number 1 Boston in 2012. I loved watching him strut his stuff in the group ring. Love his daughter too.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> This guy is one of my favorites. Number 1 Boston in 2012. I loved watching him strut his stuff in the group ring. Love his daughter too.


I think it's just the photo, but there is something in that dog's rear-end that doesn't look quite right. Not talking conformation, I add, just that something in where the spine stops and angle of the legs, or tail placement or something seems weird. (Seriously, I think it's the photo)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I think it's just the photo, but there is something in that dog's rear-end that doesn't look quite right. Not talking conformation, I add, just that something in where the spine stops and angle of the legs, or tail placement or something seems weird. (Seriously, I think it's the photo)


It is, it was the best photo off google I could find of him. He is overstretched in his rear a tad in that photo.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> It is, it was the best photo off google I could find of him.


That's what I figured.

He's got a really pretty head and sweet expression.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> This guy is one of my favorites. Number 1 Boston in 2012. I loved watching him strut his stuff in the group ring. Love his daughter too.


This is the same guy, right?
http://www.kayasbostons.com/matthew.php I was just looking at him a few minutes ago haha


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Little Wise Owl said:


> This is the same guy, right?
> http://www.kayasbostons.com/matthew.php I was just looking at him a few minutes ago haha


Yes it is him


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I know I've posted this dog in the past but this is my idea of an ideal Boston Terrier (although I'd shrink him just a TEENY bit)
> View attachment 129370


If I where to own a small dog,a Boston like that would be one of my first choices. I think would be my ideal of the breed as well.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Little Wise Owl said:


> This is what most BT breeders (that health test) in my area are producing. Dogs with massive heads, tiny butts, incredibly flat faces and the absolute inability to free whelp (a deal breaker, to me).


Thank you for saying this. What bothers me most in this whole debate is that the *best* breeders are among the guilty parties. We hear it all the time here: if you're going to get your dog from a breeder, make sure it's a responsible one that's proving their dog in the show ring and doing health testing, don't support BYBs, etc., etc. But sometimes the worst cases of dysfunction (in this case, the flattest faces) are being produced by the so-called responsible breeders. I'm not saying that we should all go out and buy from BYB's - just that we need to stop blindly accepting whatever the "good breeders" are producing as the best option. 

Honestly, next time someone gets in a huff with you about wanting a BT, tell them this. Tell them that you're not going to support the breeders who are producing the flattest faces, just because those breeders happen to win ribbons. Tell them that you'd like to see the breed continue, but with less value placed on extreme physical characteristics. I doubt you'll find too many nay-sayers.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Another Dog behaving normally.
> 
> And this is A teeny little one being impressive.
> 
> Thought you might enjoy this, Little Wise Owl.



I don't know how I missed this but I saw that second BT agility video the other day and loved it. haha


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Ugh, the most I look at this breeder the sadder I get. Why is she so far away from me? http://www.kayasbostons.com/ourdogs.php


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Found this awesome video of a Bulldog running agility. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56ta-yvhxhg


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Toby is by no means unhealthy. He has some problems with the heat in the summer but nothing a bath can't fix. 
The only problem this bulldog has is an allergy to chicken which causes hairloss and hives. Otherwise, his squishy little face doesn't seem to effect much. 

Don't feel guilty.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I have no idea if this dog is healthy or what she's mixed with but if Pugs looked more like this, I would have 857934857938475 of them (lol okay maybe I'm over-exaggerating... a little) She reminds me of a fawn version of my Charlie.


I agree, OMGTHEADORABLENESS.


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## Lappdog (Dec 2, 2013)

No reason to feel guilty at all! The sad fact is that they're breeding horrible health problems into lots of dogs these days. Dobermans, and bullies (and a LOT of other breeds) now have a genetic predisposition to hypothryoidism (which can cause a variety of problems, both behavioral and physical, as well as a short lifespan). GSDs are the poster child for bred-in hip dysplasia. Lots of mixes are bone structure disasters, and most of those aren't accidental litters; they're being bred to sell. In the grand scheme of things, brachycephalic breeding, while terrible, is just another example of irresponsible breeding that's overabundant in America today (both in "high quality" and backyard breeders). 

There's a _lot_ to love about pugs and other brachycephalic breeds, and if you're prepared to handle the health problems, I say go for it. Keeping them cool in summer goes a LONG way toward helping them to breathe better. If you want to make sure you're not supporting bad breeders, just go through a rescue, shelter or even pound, and everyone wins!


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