# Raw The Answer?



## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

I know I have posted a bunch of threads trying to find a high quality dog food for my puppy and I know I said raw wasn't possible for me, but I just got the book Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats and I have begun reading it and I have to say my I am thinking of making it possible to feed raw.

I won't make the change for a few weeks till I have more knowledge and I feel comfortable doing it, but I was just wondering if all the raw feeders could just give me some tips that will help me ease into this new way of feeding.

Also in Dr. Pitcairn's book he recommends feeding grains, which I have read that dogs don't need so do you think it would be safe to take them out of the recipes or would this lead to a deficiency of some kind? Also what about Vegetables I have heard dogs don't need them either?


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## xkitxgirx (Jun 26, 2008)

Read "Raw Dog Food-Make it Easy For you and Your dog" By Carina Beth Macdonald. It is a GREAT starter book. She isn't a vet or anything but she talks from real experience and sort of makes raw not look like such a HUGE scary step. You do not need grains. In my opinion in that book grains are way over used and ingredients are added that don't need to be there which only makes things more difficult. The rule of thumb is to feed about 2% of your dogs weight or potential weight. You feed RMBS(raw meaty bones) and some people feed a little bit of veggie and add supplements to the veggies. You also feed organ. Half liver/half other organ. Percentage wise the most common I've heard is feeding 80% meat, 10% organ, and 10% bone. But as far as bone goes it really depends on your dog. If your scared to start this way you can still feed the recipes in your book and they will be better than kibble, but eventually you should try another way after your used to feeding raw, and take out the grains.

Oh for me comparing how prices would be with both of those diets. Dr. pitcairns would cost me about $90 a month while raw will only cost $30-$60 with good meat deals. I haven't started on raw yet myself but I have done A LOT of research. Just waiting for the right time to start. I'm going on a trip soon and my parents are watching my girl so I can't switch her till after that. Good luck with your research!! And I really think you should read that book I mentioned. It REALLY makes thngs seem a lot easier!!


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

I definitely agree that he uses some ingredients, like grains and even corn, that I don't agree with granted the corn is fresh and not left over waste products from other industries that have stripped it of its nutrients, but still I don't feel comfortable feeding it.

Like I said I am just starting my research so it will probably be a few months before I make the switch, but I will definitely get that book you recommend after I am done reading Dr. Pitcairn's book, which I still think carries vital information.

I can only imagine what my family is going to say when I do make this switch and I start preparing my puppies meals.

Also another question I didn't ask in my initial post is how do you raw feeders going about making the food? Meaning, do you make a few meals ahead of time and then freeze them or how do you do it because I know a lot of time the recipes make more then what you need. I know there is some nights I don't get home till 10:30, 11:00 so it would be difficult for me to prepare a meal at that time. Also do all recipes tell you how much of it you should feed your dog?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> I definitely agree that he uses some ingredients, like grains and even corn, that I don't agree with granted the corn is fresh and not left over waste products from other industries that have stripped it of its nutrients, but still I don't feel comfortable feeding it.


Hey Striker,
I have been feeding prey model raw for 6 years. I have 2 Great Danes and 2 cats I'm feeding raw. You can take Pitcairn's book and make a door stop out of it. He basically tries to re-engineer kibble and feed it raw. With a prey model diet like I feed, it's both cheap and easy peasy. You feed meat, bones, and organs and nothing else. My Abby(8yo Dane) hasn't eaten any grains, veggies, or fruits in 6 years. My Thor(3yo Dane) has never eaten any in his entire life. The theory behind the prey model diet is that you feed what a wolf or dog would eat in the wild. They don't eat grains, veggies, or fruits and the certainly don't take any supplements.



> I can only imagine what my family is going to say when I do make this switch and I start preparing my puppies meals.


Hehe, yes and all your friends and anyone you talk to. 



> Also another question I didn't ask in my initial post is how do you raw feeders going about making the food?


In prey model raw feeding there is no "making the food". I stand at the kitchen sink and hand out animal parts at meal time. There is nothing to "make". About once a week or so I feed a meal made of raw fish, beef liver, beef heart, and a raw egg. This is the only meal I feed in bowls and the only meal that takes any preperation.



> Meaning, do you make a few meals ahead of time and then freeze them or how do you do it because I know a lot of time the recipes make more then what you need.


I buy most of my food in bulk. When I get it home, I let it thaw and then pack one meal portions in Zip Lock bags and refreeze. After each meal, I get the next meal out of the freezer to thaw for the next meal. If I forget to thaw for some reason, I just feed it frozen. The dogs don't care.

I buy chicken backs in 40lb cases for $13, drumsticks(for the cats) in 40lb cases for about $30(lasts about 3 months). I get turkey necks in 30lb cases for about $16 and turkey wings in 30lb cases for about $18. I get beef heart in 60lb cases for about $35 to $40. I get chicken leg quarters at Walmart in 10lb bags for about $5. I get other stuff from the grocery store as it's on sale. This stuff is moslty pork roasts or slabs of pork ribs. I get a lot of free meat from hunter friends and people cleaning out their freezers.



> I know there is some nights I don't get home till 10:30, 11:00 so it would be difficult for me to prepare a meal at that time. Also do all recipes tell you how much of it you should feed your dog?


All you do it make sure you take the next meal out of the freezer before you go to work. Nothing to it.

Check out my web page listed below for my suggestions on the easiest way to begin raw feeding that is designed to have the fewest problems.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Hey Striker,
> I have been feeding prey model raw for 6 years. I have 2 Great Danes and 2 cats I'm feeding raw. You can take Pitcairn's book and make a door stop out of it. He basically tries to re-engineer kibble and feed it raw. With a prey model diet like I feed, it's both cheap and easy peasy. You feed meat, bones, and organs and nothing else. My Abby(8yo Dane) hasn't eaten any grains, veggies, or fruits in 6 years. My Thor(3yo Dane) has never eaten any in his entire life. The theory behind the prey model diet is that you feed what a wolf or dog would eat in the wild. They don't eat grains, veggies, or fruits and the certainly don't take any supplements.


As soon as I first read the best diet for a dog is the one that closely resembles what he or she would eat in the wild because that is what their bodies are designed to handle it made perfect sense to me. Like you said dogs don't eat grains, veggies, or fruits in the wild, if they do it's in the stomach of the prey they eat, and they do fine so it is only natural that they would do fine with out them living a domestic life. I was making the mistake of trying to find that in the commercial kibble you can find in the stores. I now realize you won't find that in dry kibble. So this prey model diet sounds prey good and would be worth checking out.

May I ask how are your dogs and cats? Healthy as can be with shiny coats, firm stool, and just all around showing signs of being healthy? Are they healthier then all your friends that feed commercial pet food. 



RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe, yes and all your friends and anyone you talk to.


Yea I am going to get it bad from my family.



RawFedDogs said:


> In prey model raw feeding there is no "making the food". I stand at the kitchen sink and hand out animal parts at meal time. There is nothing to "make". About once a week or so I feed a meal made of raw fish, beef liver, beef heart, and a raw egg. This is the only meal I feed in bowls and the only meal that takes any preperation.


 Like I said this sounds great because it is exactly what they would eat in the wild. Still it is going to take time for me to reverse years of thinking kibble is the best way to feed a dog.



RawFedDogs said:


> I buy most of my food in bulk. When I get it home, I let it thaw and then pack one meal portions in Zip Lock bags and refreeze. After each meal, I get the next meal out of the freezer to thaw for the next meal. If I forget to thaw for some reason, I just feed it frozen. The dogs don't care.
> 
> I buy chicken backs in 40lb cases for $13, drumsticks(for the cats) in 40lb cases for about $30(lasts about 3 months). I get turkey necks in 30lb cases for about $16 and turkey wings in 30lb cases for about $18. I get beef heart in 60lb cases for about $35 to $40. I get chicken leg quarters at Walmart in 10lb bags for about $5. I get other stuff from the grocery store as it's on sale. This stuff is moslty pork roasts or slabs of pork ribs. I get a lot of free meat from hunter friends and people cleaning out their freezers.


Finding the ingredients is going to take just as much research as I am doing on feeding raw.



RawFedDogs said:


> Check out my web page listed below for my suggestions on the easiest way to begin raw feeding that is designed to have the fewest problems.


Checking it out now!


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> As soon as I first read the best diet for a dog is the one that closely resembles what he or she would eat in the wild because that is what their bodies are designed to handle it made perfect sense to me. Like you said dogs don't eat grains, veggies, or fruits in the wild, if they do it's in the stomach of the prey they eat, and they do fine so it is only natural that they would do fine with out them living a domestic life.


Actually they don't eat the stomach contents of the larger animals they kill. Only the small animals like rabbits and smaller when they can almost swallow them with a few crunches. My dogs actually don't eat stomach contents of rabbits. They will sissor open the stomach and shake the contents out before they eat the stomach. They don't eat the intestines at all.



> I was making the mistake of trying to find that in the commercial kibble you can find in the stores. I now realize you won't find that in dry kibble. So this prey model diet sounds prey good and would be worth checking out.


Its just physically impossible to make a kibble without either grains or starchy veggies like potatoes to bind everything together to create the little doom nuggets.



> May I ask how are your dogs and cats? Healthy as can be with shiny coats, firm stool, and just all around showing signs of being healthy? Are they healthier then all your friends that feed commercial pet food.


All my animals are healthy. The only vet visits they have made in the last 6 years is to get heartworm checks. One of the cats got into a fight with some wild critter and had to go to the vet to get stiched up but thats it for cat vet visits. Lower vet bills is one of the benefits of a raw diet. They all have shiney coats, bright pearly teeth, no bad breath, no "doggy" odor, stools don't stink, stools turn to white powder in a couple of days and wash away in the rain. Their Great Dane stools are about the size of your thumb and they usually go once a day. Sometimes they skip a day. 



> Like I said this sounds great because it is exactly what they would eat in the wild. Still it is going to take time for me to reverse years of thinking kibble is the best way to feed a dog.


Kibble companies have great marketing departments and kibble has become ingrained in many people. However, Kibble has only been in common use for about 30 or 40 years. IT'S the fad diet. Dogs have been eating raw for millions of years. It's the normal diet. What do you think people fed dogs 50 years ago? 100 years ago? 500 years ago?



> Finding the ingredients is going to take just as much research as I am doing on feeding raw.


You can find everything you need to feed at most any grocery store. It will take you months to learn how to shop for a raw diet in the cheapest way possible, to find good sources. But for now, a grocery store will do.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> All my animals are healthy. The only vet visits they have made in the last 6 years is to get heartworm checks. One of the cats got into a fight with some wild critter and had to go to the vet to get stiched up but thats it for cat vet visits. Lower vet bills is one of the benefits of a raw diet. They all have shiney coats, bright pearly teeth, no bad breath, no "doggy" odor, stools don't stink, stools turn to white powder in a couple of days and wash away in the rain. Their Great Dane stools are about the size of your thumb and they usually go once a day. Sometimes they skip a day.


That is great to hear makes me even more eager to try this raw diet! I know my puppy is always shaking her head like she has an ear infection, but the vet says her ears are clear as can be. Wonder if switching to raw will take care o this?



RawFedDogs said:


> Kibble companies have great marketing departments and kibble has become ingrained in many people. However, Kibble has only been in common use for about 30 or 40 years. IT'S the fad diet. Dogs have been eating raw for millions of years. It's the normal diet. What do you think people fed dogs 50 years ago? 100 years ago? 500 years ago?


Good point because there wasn't kibble back then to feed your dog.



RawFedDogs said:


> You can find everything you need to feed at most any grocery store. It will take you months to learn how to shop for a raw diet in the cheapest way possible, to find good sources. But for now, a grocery store will do.


Maybe you can help me figure out what I am going to need to start this. I know you touched on it on your website, but do I need to know anything else?

*Also I know there is a lot raw feeders on this forum so does anyone else use the Prey Model Raw diet?*


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> I know my puppy is always shaking her head like she has an ear infection, but the vet says her ears are clear as can be. Wonder if switching to raw will take care o this?


Depends on what is causing it. My dogs always shake when they stand up from lying down. I think they are straightening their collars. A raw diet won't help that. 



> Maybe you can help me figure out what I am going to need to start this. I know you touched on it on your website, but do I need to know anything else?


I did more than touch on it. I gave explicit instructions for the first several weeks. If you have trouble finding chicken backs, you can substitute chicken quarters. Other than that, I think it is all in there. If you have specific questions, please ask. I'll be more than glad to help all I can.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I did more than touch on it. I gave explicit instructions for the first several weeks. If you have trouble finding chicken backs, you can substitute chicken quarters. Other than that, I think it is all in there. If you have specific questions, please ask. I'll be more than glad to help all I can.


So I should be able to find all I need at say Walmart or other local grocery stores?

It seems that I might be able to switch sooner then I thought I am starting to feel more comfortable, confident, and eager to try this. I get the impression this might be a good thing since she is still a puppy (7 months) ,but she was recently diagnosed with inflammation of the intestines that was about two weeks ago and she seems to be fine now so you think it would it be fine to start her on this soon? It will be a few weeks because I will have to scout out some local grocery stores first for chicken backs and stuff.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> So I should be able to find all I need at say Walmart or other local grocery stores?


Yes, its not the ideal way but its the way to start. You will eventually want to buy most of your meat in bulk as it will be much cheaper that way. You should be able to get chicken quarters at walmart for around $.50/lb in 10lb bags. That will be 9 or 10 quarters. To buy in bulk you will need a freezer. You can usually find one cheap on craigslist.com. What size of dog are we talking about? I mean what size will it be when grown?



> It seems that I might be able to switch sooner then I thought I am starting to feel more comfortable, confident, and eager to try this. I get the impression this might be a good thing since she is still a puppy (7 months) ,but she was recently diagnosed with inflammation of the intestines that was about two weeks ago and she seems to be fine now so you think it would it be fine to start her on this soon?


Sure. The inflamation was caused by kibble.



> It will be a few weeks because I will have to scout out some local grocery stores first for chicken backs and stuff.


Backs will be the most difficult item for you to find. Many people don't feed backs because of that. You will probably have to get a store to special order a case for you. Ethnic markets are most likely to stock them if you have one of those near you. If you can't find backs, don't worry about it. You can use quarters instead.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Yes, its not the ideal way but its the way to start. You will eventually want to buy most of your meat in bulk as it will be much cheaper that way. You should be able to get chicken quarters at walmart for around $.50/lb in 10lb bags. That will be 9 or 10 quarters. To buy in bulk you will need a freezer. You can usually find one cheap on craigslist.com. What size of dog are we talking about? I mean what size will it be when grown?


Right now at 7 months she is 50 lbs so she will probably be around 80 lbs full grown, but being a mix it really is hard to say.



RawFedDogs said:


> Sure. The inflamation was caused by kibble.


Doesn't surprise me even though she was on a decent kibble you never know what is in it. I am starting to believe there is no such thing as a decent kibble.



RawFedDogs said:


> Backs will be the most difficult item for you to find. Many people don't feed backs because of that. You will probably have to get a store to special order a case for you. Ethnic markets are most likely to stock them if you have one of those near you. If you can't find backs, don't worry about it. You can use quarters instead.


There is a health store near me not sure if that is what you mean by ethnic market.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Doesn't surprise me even though she was on a decent kibble you never know what is in it. I am starting to believe there is no such thing as a decent kibble.


Hehe, you learn fast. 



> There is a health store near me not sure if that is what you mean by ethnic market.


I mean an oriental market or a mexican market or something like Wholefoods market. People of other cultures often eat stuff we don't. You wlll be more likely to find chicken backs there and you can get some cool organ stuff. Don't worry about organs right now. You will be able to find stuff like beef or pork lung or tongue. You might also find things like whole rabbits. Those will be great to feed later on.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I mean an oriental market or a mexican market or something like Wholefoods market. People of other cultures often eat stuff we don't. You wlll be more likely to find chicken backs there and you can get some cool organ stuff. Don't worry about organs right now. You will be able to find stuff like beef or pork lung or tongue. You might also find things like whole rabbits. Those will be great to feed later on.


I will keep this in mind, but for now I am going to do what you said on your website and start with the chicken quarters for the first week.

On how much to feed can you try and help me and explain that? I read it on your website but I am a little confused about what you mean. Right now she is 50lbs and you say feed 10% of her weight, which would be 5 lbs, until it exceeds 2% or 3% of her ideal weight, which lets says it 80 lbs, so 3% of that is 24 lbs.

I am going to stop there because that is where I confused you can't possibly mean I have to feed her 5lbs of chicken quarters until I get up to 24 lbs. Then go by 2% or 3% of her weight at that time?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> I will keep this in mind, but for now I am going to do what you said on your website and start with the chicken quarters for the first week.


Cool, thats the thing to do.



> On how much to feed can you try and help me and explain that? I read it on your website but I am a little confused about what you mean. Right now she is 50lbs and you say feed 10% of her weight, which would be 5 lbs, until it exceeds 2% or 3% of her ideal weight, which lets says it 80 lbs, so 3% of that is 24 lbs.


Nope, you made a math error.  2% of 80lbs is 1.6lbs. A quarter weighs around 1lb. 3% of 80lbs is 2.4lbs. So I suggest you feed a quarter in the morning and one in the evening. Remember this is only a starting point. If she starts losing weight, feed more ... if she gains too much weight, feed less. A thin puppy is healthier than a fat puppy. You want to see the last couple of ribs and a definate waist line behind the rib cage when viewed from above. You don't want to see the hip bone or spine. That should help you guage how she should look. Feed to get her to that point but begin with 2 quarters a day ... one in the morning and one in the evening.



> I am going to stop there because that is where I confused you can't possibly mean I have to feed her 5lbs of chicken quarters until I get up to 24 lbs. Then go by 2% or 3% of her weight at that time?


Good thinking ... bad math.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Nope, you made a math error.  2% of 80lbs is 1.6lbs. A quarter weighs around 1lb. 3% of 80lbs is 2.4lbs. So I suggest you feed a quarter in the morning and one in the evening. Remember this is only a starting point. If she starts losing weight, feed more ... if she gains too much weight, feed less. A thin puppy is healthier than a fat puppy. You want to see the last couple of ribs and a definate waist line behind the rib cage when viewed from above. You don't want to see the hip bone or spine. That should help you guage how she should look. Feed to get her to that point but begin with 2 quarters a day ... one in the morning and one in the evening.


Alright thanks for clearing that up!



RawFedDogs said:


> Good thinking ... bad math.


Hey it was 1:30 in the morning cut me a break! I know what I did I did 20% instead of 2% teaches me to do math at 1:30 in the morning..haha

What if the dog doesn't eat all that you give him? Just refreeze it for next time? Where do the bones come in? Are they in the meat you give him?


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Striker2807 said:


> *Also I know there is a lot raw feeders on this forum so does anyone else use the Prey Model Raw diet?*


I do! I've been feeding it for about 3 years - sometimes I throw in a little homecooked or if I absolutely have to, I will feed a high quality grainless kibble. But, for the most part they eat raw meat, bones and offal and that's it. 
Raw has been the answer for us. And it's really not as complicated as it might seem right now.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> ... sometimes I throw in a little homecooked or if I absolutely have to, I will feed a high quality grainless kibble.


Why in the world would you have to sometimes feed your dog inferior foods? Why would kibble even be in your house?


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Raw has been the answer for us. And it's really not as complicated as it might seem right now.


Right now it is a little complicated, but it is the first diet that has excited me in awhile when it comes to feeding my dog.

I mean after all it is close to their natural diet so why wouldn't it be great for them?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Right now it is a little complicated, but it is the first diet that has excited me in awhile when it comes to feeding my dog.


Hey Striker,
Its only complicated when you are on the outside looking in. Once you are feeding, you will be amazed at how simple it is. Go get some chicken quarters and start feeding them. Feed nothing but chicken quarters for 2 weeks. Thats simple, huh?

You have two weeks to decide what to feed next. You don't have to buy it until the day before you feed it. Then you will have another week or so to decidw what will be next, etc. There is plenty of time to make decisions as you go along. There is no need to rush anything as you will be feeding this for a long time. If it takes you 4 months to get a good variety going, NBD.

If you look at all the choices at once, heck yes, it's complicated. After you have been feeding raw for a while, you just reach in the freezer and what ever your hand lands on is what you will feed next meal. 3 nights ago, my dogs had chicken quarters. 2 nights ago it was turkey necks. Last n ight it was beef hear. Tonight it will be pork roast. Tomorrow I think it will feed the fish, beef heart, liver, egg mush I feed every so often. After that, who knows? It depends on what I pull out of the freezer. Sometimes I look in the freezer, see something and say, "well, I haven't fed that in a while, I think I'll feed it next." Or they might get quarters 3 or 4 nights in a row. There is just no set schedule or plan, just like in the wild.  In the wild they eat whatever they run across next.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Yes I too use the whole prey model diet. Dogs can't digest veggies therefore they get no nutritional value from them. Grains cause their body to overwork to break down and process them, some grains they also can't digest at all.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't feed grains, fruits or vegetables at all. 

It does seem complicated at first, but it's actually not. Might be a little stressful at first, because you keep thinking that you need to get the nutritional values balanced in every meal...but you don't. As long as you keep things balanced out in the big picture, there's no need to get tiny little details perfectly accurate every day. For example, sometimes I don't have enough raw bone in the house, so I'll just feed more meat than bone. Then, another day, I'll feed a little more bone than meat. Same with the different types of meat. Some days it can be pork, another beef, another you can just toss them a fish. Just depends on what you have at home.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I also forgot to say that not all dogs do very well on raw. This is to be expected, it is close to what they should eat and what dogs eat in the wild, it doesn't mean every dog is fit for it. Dogs are domesticated animals created and selectively bred by man. Some have issues, it might not be natural or right that they have these problems but the fact is that they do. They can have all sorts of problems and at times certain breeds have sensitivity to specific things like medications for example that other breeds tolerate without problem and no serious side effects. While raw should be ideal with some dogs very few foods work period, whether kibble or raw their system is jeopardized and they have very few things they can handle without some type of side effect.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> I also forgot to say that not all dogs do very well on raw. This is to be expected, it is close to what they should eat and what dogs eat in the wild, it doesn't mean every dog is fit for it.


I just don't know how you can say that with a straight face. All dogs have the same dentation. They all have the same digestive juices. They all have the same short intestinal system. Their whole digestive system is identical to what dogs were millions of years. All that selective breeding has not changed their digestive system in the least.



> While raw should be ideal with some dogs very few foods work period, whether kibble or raw their system is jeopardized and they have very few things they can handle without some type of side effect.


I have been active in the raw feeding world for 6 years. I have never known a breed that couldn't eat a prey model raw diet. Even the squshed nose breeds chew bones like champs. The fragile breeds do wonderful. The very small breeds eat like little wolves. The giant breeds eat raw like you would expect them to.

I have known dogs with IBS and IBD and pancreatitis and kidney problems do great when switched to a prey model raw diet. I have seen cancer dogs switched and live 10 times longer than the vet gave them.

To say any dog can't eat a prey model raw diet is just silly.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Hey Striker,
> Its only complicated when you are on the outside looking in. Once you are feeding, you will be amazed at how simple it is. Go get some chicken quarters and start feeding them. Feed nothing but chicken quarters for 2 weeks. Thats simple, huh?
> 
> You have two weeks to decide what to feed next. You don't have to buy it until the day before you feed it. Then you will have another week or so to decidw what will be next, etc. There is plenty of time to make decisions as you go along. There is no need to rush anything as you will be feeding this for a long time. If it takes you 4 months to get a good variety going, NBD.
> ...


That makes perfects sense to me. I just mentioned to my family who I live with about how I may switch to raw and they are old fashion when it comes to dogs so of course they called my crazy said I spoil my dog, which I replied no I just want what's best for her and I don't think that answer can be found in kibble nothing against anyone who feeds it that's just my opinion. 

I also have to ask about something they said which I know isn't true, but I just want the people that feed raw to confirm it. They said that feeding raw will make her think that when they our cooking dinner (i.e chicken) that when she sees the raw chicken she is going to think it's hers and she is going to try and take it. I know this is a load of garbage, but for all you raw feeders what do you have to say about this?




Spicy1_VV said:


> Yes I too use the whole prey model diet. Dogs can't digest veggies therefore they get no nutritional value from them. Grains cause their body to overwork to break down and process them, some grains they also can't digest at all.


Ditto on all that their bodies have never been exposed to grains or veggies and if they have it hasn't been enough to develop the ability to digest them.

Also I do have a question about raw being to rich for a dog and high in protein. The argument I have read about this is they don't get the exercise like a wolf would hunting and tracking prey. Is this true? From what everyone that feeds a prey model diet says this isn't true because their dogs are healthy as can be.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> I just don't know how you can say that with a straight face. All dogs have the same dentation. They all have the same digestive juices. They all have the same short intestinal system. Their whole digestive system is identical to what dogs were millions of years. All that selective breeding has not changed their digestive system in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not all have the same systems, that is the like saying all humans have the same systems. Or any other animals. There are other species of animals that are put on special odd diets because their body does not tolerate their natural diet that they should be eating in the wild. Their body rejects it, causes side effects or they have allergies. This is not normal nor it is right but it is present in some animals. If they were all the same then some wouldn't have problems with certain foods that others don't. That wouldn't make sense at all. Some have jeopardized digestive systems, issues with certain foods. Because of poor breeding you can end up with a lot of problems, including those problems, some clearly do much better on raw then they ever would on kibble and it is much easier on their system but they still have an issue to. 

Yes raw cures many things, who argued that it did not. If I did not believe prey model diet was the best I wouldn't be feeding it to my dogs and recommending it to others. 

I'm not sure how up and up you are on medical things or breeding well or any of that but there are defects in a wide array of animals including dogs that lead their bodies to reject the natural or to have an issue. Not all dogs are equal and identical. There are differences in dogs various systems, health and body far beyond digestive system, many other problems out there. Maybe you have not come across them in your experience but they exist. 

If you want to believe that all dogs have the exact same digestive system which is not true that is your choice. Please don't call me silly for your belief.



Striker2807 said:


> Ditto on all that their bodies have never been exposed to grains or veggies and if they have it hasn't been enough to develop the ability to digest them.
> 
> Also I do have a question about raw being to rich for a dog and high in protein. The argument I have read about this is they don't get the exercise like a wolf would hunting and tracking prey. Is this true? From what everyone that feeds a prey model diet says this isn't true because their dogs are healthy as can be.


Not true in my experience. My dogs are high energy with high metabolism though. If they were to be fed kibble they would have need a kibble high in protein and fat to sustain them. I don't feel that it is too high in protein for other dogs either because we do not see the side effects or illness (at least I never have) of dogs that are given too much protein.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> I just want what's best for her and I don't think that answer can be found in kibble nothing against anyone who feeds it that's just my opinion.


It's not opinion, its fact. 



> They said that feeding raw will make her think that when they our cooking dinner (i.e chicken) that when she sees the raw chicken she is going to think it's hers and she is going to try and take it.


I would never leave meat out where any dog can get to it. Most will try to get it. It has notihng to do with their diet. Meat is just very appetising to a dog. I have giant dogs. They can eat off my plate at the dinner table and keep all 4 feet on the floor. They can eat food off the kitchen counter with all feet on the floor. Neither is a problem at my house. Leaving food alone is a leaned behavior. 



> Also I do have a question about raw being to rich for a dog and high in protein.


Contrary to popular opinion a prey model raw diet is actually a low protein diet. Most of the diet is water. Meat is around 70% water. A prey model diet is around 20% protein.



> From what everyone that feeds a prey model diet says this isn't true because their dogs are healthy as can be.


I don't know how my dogs could be happier. Abby, 6 years on raw. Thor who is 3yo has been on raw all his life. Both cats around 4 years on raw.



Spicy1_VV said:


> Not all have the same systems, that is the like saying all humans have the same systems. Or any other animals. There are other species of animals that are put on special odd diets because their body does not tolerate their natural diet that they should be eating in the wild. Their body rejects it, causes side effects or they have allergies. This is not normal nor it is right but it is present in some animals. If they were all the same then some wouldn't have problems with certain foods that others don't. That wouldn't make sense at all. Some have jeopardized digestive systems, issues with certain foods. Because of poor breeding you can end up with a lot of problems, including those problems, some clearly do much better on raw then they ever would on kibble and it is much easier on their system but they still have an issue to.


I think we both agree on most of what you say. I am just saying that no matter how a dog is "different" he can still thrive more on raw than any kibble made. There is no time for any dog that a highly processed grain based cereal is more healthy than a prey model diet supplied by nature. If I dog is different he may need a diet with more or less fat or more or less bone or a diet higher in one or another vitamin but all these can be taken care of by adjusting the diet, not changing to doom nuggets. 



> I'm not sure how up and up you are on medical things or breeding well or any of that but there are defects in a wide array of animals including dogs that lead their bodies to reject the natural or to have an issue. Not all dogs are equal and identical. There are differences in dogs various systems, health and body far beyond digestive system, many other problems out there. Maybe you have not come across them in your experience but they exist.


My statement above covers this too. All dogs have the same nutritional needs just some may need a little more or less of one thing or another. I don't understand what nutrient you think a dog can get from kibble that he can't get from prey model. I don't know what nutrient you think a dog can get from a cooked diet that he can't get from prey model.



> If you want to believe that all dogs have the exact same digestive system which is not true that is your choice. Please don't call me silly for your belief.


Did I do that?


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

Well I have learned much in this thread and I will more then likely be switching as soon as I can, a few weeks at the latest, but I just want to ask a few more things.

On this prey model diet you dog eats just meat and bones. When you say bones is there special ones you can buy or do you just give the ones that are in the meat? Also I know some of you recommend feeding fish once a week for the Omega 3 Fatty Acids and I was just wondering if the prepackaged fish, that is whole and wrapped like meat, would be good to use to provide the Omega 3 Fatty Acids. I reason I ask is because I think that be great, but if it is Salmon is it safe to use because I thought salmon was poisonous to dogs.

I also want to say thanks to everyone that has answered my questions, even the ones I have repeated, I feel like I have finally find the best diet for my dog after months of searching and just not finding anything that tickled me in the right way.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> I think we both agree on most of what you say. I am just saying that no matter how a dog is "different" he can still thrive more on raw than any kibble made. There is no time for any dog that a highly processed grain based cereal is more healthy than a prey model diet supplied by nature. If I dog is different he may need a diet with more or less fat or more or less bone or a diet higher in one or another vitamin but all these can be taken care of by adjusting the diet, not changing to doom nuggets.
> 
> My statement above covers this too. All dogs have the same nutritional needs just some may need a little more or less of one thing or another. I don't understand what nutrient you think a dog can get from kibble that he can't get from prey model. I don't know what nutrient you think a dog can get from a cooked diet that he can't get from prey model.
> 
> Did I do that?


I don't think a dog can get anything more from heat processed foods. I think we kind of agree but are trying to get at two different things maybe? 

Well yes some is a matter of needing more of this vs that. Which just requires simple adjustment. Others have digestive problems so screwy that it isn't just a matter of needing less bone or something like that, it is just how ill off their system is. There might be a few adjustments you could make or things to help 
but at the end of the day they might not do perfect on raw even though they do better. Some dogs have problems absorbing nutrients even from easy to digest raw feeds that offers higher, better nutrient content then heat processed foods. Others have problems with digestion overall, the raw is certainly better then the kibble no arguing there and easier for them to digest but some dogs will never be righted. Some have allergies to most protein sources which leaves them with only 1 maybe 2 choices. Although those choices are obviously available to them it and that could be seen as a simply issue they do miss out on the varied meals and of course not all meat sources have the same to offer. 

Well I feel we are on the same page. I was never saying kibble is better for a dog then raw. Hmmm now that would be silly of me.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Well I feel we are on the same page. I was never saying kibble is better for a dog then raw. Hmmm now that would be silly of me.


NOOOoooooo!!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Well I have learned much in this thread and I will more then likely be switching as soon as I can, a few weeks at the latest, but I just want to ask a few more things.
> 
> On this prey model diet you dog eats just meat and bones. When you say bones is there special ones you can buy or do you just give the ones that are in the meat? Also I know some of you recommend feeding fish once a week for the Omega 3 Fatty Acids and I was just wondering if the prepackaged fish, that is whole and wrapped like meat, would be good to use to provide the Omega 3 Fatty Acids. I reason I ask is because I think that be great, but if it is Salmon is it safe to use because I thought salmon was poisonous to dogs.
> 
> I also want to say thanks to everyone that has answered my questions, even the ones I have repeated, I feel like I have finally find the best diet for my dog after months of searching and just not finding anything that tickled me in the right way.



the bones that are in the meat are what you give. just remember to ONLY thaw in the fridge and NEVER in the microwave. 

i've never had a problem giving salmon once in a while. though I mostly give local fish we fish for ourselves. 


change "prey model" to "food modeled on prey" and you get the idea, that being the food should be given in as natural a state as possible. 

note: my dog had to be taught to eat rmbs. she wasn't quite sure what to do at first, so I would do things like peel off a tendril of meat for her to get a grip on and during the first few days I had to hold it for her. she crunches away like a champ these days. if you run into this issue be patient with your pup. they figure it out after a bit.

the other issue you might run into is some dogs get used to inhaling their kibble so when they switch to raw they go too fast. supervise closely at first.


good luck.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> On this prey model diet you dog eats just meat and bones.


Meat, bones, AND organs. Organs are a required part of the diet though not necessary to feed every day. Every week or every other week or once a month but the need to be fed.



> When you say bones is there special ones you can buy or do you just give the ones that are in the meat?


The ones that are in the meat. You will never see me suggest feeding bare bones.



> Also I know some of you recommend feeding fish once a week for the Omega 3 Fatty Acids and I was just wondering if the prepackaged fish, that is whole and wrapped like meat, would be good to use to provide the Omega 3 Fatty Acids. I reason I ask is because I think that be great, but if it is Salmon is it safe to use because I thought salmon was poisonous to dogs.


Most any kind of fish will do but Salmon, Mackerel, and Sardines are some of the better ones. I feed canned fish. I know it's cooked but it's easier on me so thats what I do. If you feed a good bit of grass fed beef or a good bit of wild game such as rabbits or deer you will get plenty of O3's.

The only Salmon you need to be concerned about are wild caught salmon from the Pacific Northwest. SOME of them carry a parasite that is harmful and even lethel to dogs. If you freeze this salmon for a few weeks it will kill the parasites. Farmed salmon or salmon from other parts of the world are ok.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> note: my dog had to be taught to eat rmbs. she wasn't quite sure what to do at first, so I would do things like peel off a tendril of meat for her to get a grip on and during the first few days I had to hold it for her. she crunches away like a champ these days. if you run into this issue be patient with your pup. they figure it out after a bit.
> 
> the other issue you might run into is some dogs get used to inhaling their kibble so when they switch to raw they go too fast. supervise closely at first.
> 
> ...


I just don't see this being a problem, but hey you never know so I will keep that in mind!

Oh I am excited and I know my puppy will love it! Even if it takes her time to get used to it!


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## JayBarnes (Jan 8, 2008)

Another great informative thread about RAW. I just started my 10 month old Siberian Husky on raw. I've got a couple of questions though. 
First off, lets see if I'm on the right track. He's been on this diet for around 4 days. He's about 65 lbs, so I give him a chicken quarter in the morning and a chicken quarter in the evening. He seems to love it and munches up the bones with ease. So far he's had nothing but chicken quarters. Does this sound right so far?
Next, isn't it a possibilitly that some of the raw meat you run across would contain some parasites? For example, isn't trichinella found in pork muscle occasionally? Is there any meat that could potentially contain harmful parasites that should be avoided?
How long should I feed the chicken quarters until I change it up a little. I'm thinking I've read two weeks? Then after two weeks, throw in a turkey neck for a meal for example? Also, do I need to wait about two weeks before giving any organ meat?
Thanks in advance.


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## Alpha Dog (Jun 27, 2008)

Ok guys, the following information I have provided for you all will hopefully give you all a brief insight into the world of the BARF/RMB diets......or simply RAW feeding.......all the information is supplied with dogs in mind, but this diet is also suitable for cats.........ok.......here goes......

What is BARF/RMB's?
BARF stands for: Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, or as most people know it, Bones and Raw Food..............
RMB's stands for: Raw Meaty Bones......
These diets are not new, or any type of new feeding trend, in fact they have been aroung for hundreds/thousands of years if you think about evoloution, and they are basically about feeding cats and dogs the necessary diet to help them thrive through life and assist in reaching their genetic potential in terms of health, longevity, physical exercise and reproduction, so when the diet strays away from this evoloutionary way of feeding then the more health problems an individual animal is likely to develop. It is also worth a mention here that the genetic make-up of an animal also plays it's role here too.
In basic terms, convential grain based pet foods, which as we are all aware is a MASSIVE industry in itself, cause MANY health problems, no matter what research is put into them. They simply cannot stand upto RAW diets in terms of health enhancing attributes.

Ingredients for BARF/RMB's
Basically, it is what is readily available that you can get hold of around your location, but as the diet names suggest this diet consists of various parts to get the WHOLE benefits and this should be done over time and not all crammed into 1 or 2 meals.
All the following ingredients are suitable to be fed as part of this diet, unless of course you know your pet has an intolerance towards it, these include - Chicken wings, legs, carcasses, whole chickens, lamb ribs, lamb shanks, beef, pork, venison, fish, duck, pork, turkey, rabbit, veggies(blended or pureed), fruit (but there is on-going debate as to whether the fruit and veg side is necessary/helpful......but that's for another person to get stuck into), eggs, offal etc etc, there really is an abundance of items out there for everyone to be able to get hold of.

Feeding the above items, such as the meat products, it is best to do so as a whole and not to strip it down, for example, meat and bone should be eaten as a whole and together, yes give your dog a bone on it's own once or twice a week or so, but the main part of the diet should be eaten whole, this enables your dog to basically clean as it goes, such as when they eat rabbit, the bones help clean the teeth and gums, whereas the fur, tendons, ligaments etc will floss and basically polish the dogs internal system.......sorry could'nt really think of another way to put it.

Also thought I'd quickly metion Fasting. This is beneficial to your dogs as tend to regulate their own food intake, for example, even if there is a HUGE pile of food for your dog they will not necessarily eat it all, once they are full thry will come away from it. By fasting it allows the dogs digestive system to rest and recouperate and studies from wild dogs/wolves show that there are health benefits from doing do.

Benefits from RAW feeding

Increased energy levels (especially good to see in the older/infirm dogs)
Increased lean body mass (your dog will lose unwanted fat and gain increased muscle mass)
MANY dental problems will disappear (including a nicer breath and tarter removal)
Many skin problems disappear (just see how much healthier and younger your pals look and all your friends will be saying 'Ooohhh isn't your dogs coat nice and shiney......time to chuck away the medicated bath rinses)
Healthy ears (BARF and RMB's strengthens the immune system which contains essentail fatty acids aswell as a host of other ingredients which in turn reduces inflammatory conditions)
Anal Sac problems disappear (this diet will firm up the horrible sloppy smelly stools and you'd be surprised that when toilet time comes there usually is a reduction in the amount that is excreted, gone are the days of taking your dog to the vets to have their anal glands emptied.......YUK)

There are MANY other benefits but the above gives you a good starter too see some of the benefits when feeding this way.

Fears of the RAW diets

Personally, MANY people do not feed this way I beleive from 2 simple assumptions - 1.Fear 2.Ignorance(not meant in any bad way to anyone)

When you speak to people, especially when they ask what you feed you dog, the usual reply is......Oh no your not supposed to feed your dogs bones........or..........are'nt they always sick because things like raw chicken carry bacteria like Salmonella and Compalabacter..........so basically......cats and dogs are hunters and have fed this way for thousands of years.......their systems are designed to take such food and their whole being and make-up produces the necessary things needed to be able to cope with bacteria and digest this type of food to get the whole benefit from it.........how often do you see your cats catching and eating birds etc.......do they suddenly become ill...........or how often does your dog run into the garden to find a half eaten bird left over to quickly gobble the whole lot down........do they then suddenly become ill.........

Another fear people have are bones.......if ANYONE does not want to feed whole bones, there is no reason not to smash or grind them up.....this is particulary good for those GREEDY dogs who do not know what the word 'chew' means.........for all of our 6 labradors we dont grind anything up and feed things as they come

Old wives tales such as.....'my dog will become blood thirsty' or 'my dog will become aggressive' are COMPLETELY untrue.........aggression will only come from a dog that has food aggression from the outset.......anyone should be able to go up to their dogs and take ANY piece of food from them at any time without ANY problem, this is why it is so important as puppies, whatever the food maybe that they are taught you are the TOP-DOG of the household and they should respect this

Just to finish off, common sense must prevail to us humans when handlimg RAW meats and food etc, as we are not designed like dogs so we MUST wash anything we use well including ourselves in order to maintain a healthy immune system.....if you don't then yes, you may well become sick

Thanks for reading this guys, this is a very brief and basic guide to RAW feeding, which I have only scratched the surface as there is SO MUCH more to this including things like supplementation of vitamins and a whole host of other things........this in itself again is a debatable topic of discussion, which I won't enter now.

Alpha Dog


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JayBarnes said:


> He's about 65 lbs, so I give him a chicken quarter in the morning and a chicken quarter in the evening. He seems to love it and munches up the bones with ease.


Cool. You are doing great so far.



> So far he's had nothing but chicken quarters. Does this sound right so far?


Yep



> Next, isn't it a possibilitly that some of the raw meat you run across would contain some parasites?


It's possible but not probable. Most parasites are little more than an nutance anyway. The most likely place to run across parasites is if you feed your dog wild animals. Freezing wild animal meat for a few weeks will kill any parasites.



> For example, isn't trichinella found in pork muscle occasionally?


Not if you live in the US, Canada, Austraila, or most of western europe. Trich was killed off years ago. Again If you feel it's a problem and worry about it, freeze the meat for a few weeks before feeding.



> Is there any meat that could potentially contain harmful parasites that should be avoided?


Wild caught salmon in the pacific northwest have some pretty dangerous stuff. Again freezing kills it. Farmed salmon or salmon from other parts of the world are ok.



> How long should I feed the chicken quarters until I change it up a little. I'm thinking I've read two weeks? Then after two weeks, throw in a turkey neck for a meal for example?


All that is right on.



> Also, do I need to wait about two weeks before giving any organ meat?


I'd wait a couple of months just to be safe and then start slowly with very small amounts.


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## JayBarnes (Jan 8, 2008)

Good deal. Thanks for the help.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

Well I was at WalMart today to see what they had and they had Chicken Quarters, well they were Chicken Leg Quarters, but am assuming they are the same thing.

So I will start my puppy on those for two weeks and during that time I will see if I can't find some Turkey or something to throw in there after that two weeks. Can't wait I am going to start her on a raw diet starting the 19th or somewhere close to there.

Also does a raw Diet tend to be cheaper because looking at some stuff today it seemed like it will be.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I somehow have a really hard time thinking about feeding my dog chicken bones. Even though I know they are raw, not cooked which would be dangerous, aren't they also very sharp when they are crunched up? I know thirty years ago, when we had greyhounds, I was given a bunch of turkeys that had died of heart attacks when they were catching and shipping them. The greyhounds ate them up, no problem so guess I am just being overly cautious. Has anyone had a problem with chicken and turkey necks even with small dogs?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Well I was at WalMart today to see what they had and they had Chicken Quarters, well they were Chicken Leg Quarters, but am assuming they are the same thing.


Yes, that is what I am talking about.



> So I will start my puppy on those for two weeks and during that time I will see if I can't find some Turkey or something to throw in there after that two weeks.


Go to a grocery store or meat market where they cut their own meat. Ask them if you can get some turkey necks that haven't been cut yet. The turkey necks you find in grocery stores have been cut in 1/2 or 1/3s and packaged that way. You want to get necks that haven't been cut yet. Uncut necks are about a foot or so long and weigh about a pound. If you can't get those, see if you can get some turkey wings.



> Also does a raw Diet tend to be cheaper because looking at some stuff today it seemed like it will be.


It will probably be a little more expensive at first but as you learn to show for good meat deals, it will get a lot cheaper.



Kyllobernese said:


> I somehow have a really hard time thinking about feeding my dog chicken bones. Even though I know they are raw, not cooked which would be dangerous, aren't they also very sharp when they are crunched up?


We all were nervous when we first started. Sometimes some of the bones look pretty sharp but they are not as sharp as they appear and dog's insides are pretty tough. 



> Has anyone had a problem with chicken and turkey necks even with small dogs?


You don't want to feed chicken necks to any but the smallest of dogs. For the medium size dogs, they will swallow them whole and they can't be a choking hazzard. For the larger dogs, they will swallow them whole but the chicken necks aren't large enough to be any problem but they don't get the dental benefits from chewing them. When you get turkey necks, get whole ones that haven't been cut. A whole neck is about a food long and weighs about a pound.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> Why in the world would you have to sometimes feed your dog inferior foods? Why would kibble even be in your house?


LMAO! It's not in the home - usually it's when my dogs are being watched by friends who just can't stomach feeding raw. I know, I probably need new friends, don't I?


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## Kibblelady (May 6, 2008)

As for the OP no, I do not think Raw is always the answer. You know, I never put it down and never degrade people for feeding it but must say I am sick of such references toward kibble on this thread. My dogs eat a great diet, the base of that diet is kibble and they have fantastic health. They do not go to the vet bla bla bla, they have no skin issues. stool issues or health problems either, Their teeth have no tarter on them at all and the oldest is 9yrs of age.

It is great to be excited about something you support but it is possible to be excited about it witout putting other's decisions down or trying to make them feel like lazy shmucks. 


I feed kibble and I am proud of the great health my dogs enjoy as a result of *MY* proper and responsible care of them.


Cherri


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Alright, I'm gonna try this, sounds pretty easy and I have a small freezer in my garage I'm not using for anything, sooo, couple questions.....would a membership to something like sams club be beneficial, and also, ot a little bit, but what about cats? Do cats eat bones? What about a senior cat?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

sheltiemom said:


> would a membership to something like sams club be beneficial,


I don't know, I have never belonged to one of those membership places. I get chicken leg quarters at Walmart for around $.50/lb. in 10lb bags. I also pick up some pork roasts, beef roasts, and pork ribs when they are on sale. Most of the food I buy, I get a small independent grocery store to special order for me by the case. I buy chicken backs & drumsticks, turkey necks & wings, and beef heart by the case. I get beef liver on my regular trips to the grocery store. 



> what about cats? Do cats eat bones?


My cats eat raw. It's a little more difficult convince them that its good for them.  I feed my cats chicken drumsticks whenever the dogs get chicken or turkey. When the dogs get anything else, I always cut some off their portion for the cats. So the cat's diet is almost identical to the dog's diet.




> What about a senior cat?


I haven't had a senior cat on raw yet but I see no reason why it should be a problem. If you have trouble with him let me know and we will work it out.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

sheltiemom said:


> Alright, I'm gonna try this, sounds pretty easy and I have a small freezer in my garage I'm not using for anything, sooo, couple questions.....would a membership to something like sams club be beneficial, and also, ot a little bit, but what about cats? Do cats eat bones? What about a senior cat?


I have a costco membership. Found it pretty useless for raw. Most of the meat (at least at mine) was beef very little chicken it was mostly the "expensive" beef too, like filet mignon. So if you don't have a membership, i wouldn't get on just for that purpose.

I actually get alot at the regular grocery store when its "on sale" i don't store any of it tho for more than a few days. 

My cats eat it fine. You may have to cut it up small at first or mix it with their dry/wet food so they get that its actually food.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Yeah, I haven't found much savings at Sams or Costco. Another option, if you don't mind doing a little leg work, is you can run an ad on Craigslist for freezer burnt meat. I have been able to score a good amount of free meat here and there.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I had a membership that I let expire back in March, I'll skip renewing it for now. I looked at some prices at Kroger last time I was there and the only thing that was decent priced was chicken, forget about beef, lamb, fish, crazy expensive, and they didn't have turkey or any organs. I haven't even begun to shop around yet though, there's walmart and the mexican grocery store. 

The 2 y/o cat I'm not worried about, she's a former feral and will eat literally anything. The other is 12 y/o and I can't imagine her eating a bone. I was first thinking ground meat for her, but I read on a cat site that that's bad?



BoxMeIn21 said:


> Yeah, I haven't found much savings at Sams or Costco. Another option, if you don't mind doing a little leg work, is you can run an ad on Craigslist for freezer burnt meat. I have been able to score a good amount of free meat here and there.


I could feed them for a week off the freezer burnt meat in my own freezer...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Sheltiemom, you're best off finding a wholesale distributer or slaughter house to buy from. You can also go to places such as Shoppers Warehoue and get the short dated meats at a discount.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

First, I'm on a road trip and this has been the first time in about 2 weeks that I've checked in. I've been feeding raw for a few years now, best thing I ever did. However, there are a few things that I think are important to watch for.

1. Pacific salmon...no, not ever. Too much of a risk, can be fatal to dogs. Besides, there's so much other fish out there to feed, why risk it.

2. Cheap chicken finds..read the labels. I have recently been seeing the brands change at our Walmarts and some of them have up to 12% added salt water. Not good for you or your dog! 

3. Trich in pork...not completely eradicated even in the US. I work in the medical filed and there have been recent articles about this. I feed pork to both my human and dogs/cat. But we plan ahead so that we can freeze for 30 days before eating. Aos buy from a reputable source. I would not be looking for pork at my local ethnic (in my case hispanic or asian) markets.

Last, there is a good sticky thread at the top of the food forum about feeding raw and those of us who do so contributed our favorite websites. There is tons of good info in there, probably one of the best all 'round sources for feeding raw.

I feed my dogs 2x/day. So the night before I take out the food for the two meal for the next day, thawing them in a plastic shoebox (avoids confusion by visiting hmans to our house about what is human food and what is dog food) in the fridge.

When I have a "find" (make friends with the butchers at the groceries so you know when they do the markdowns, let your friends who hunt and fish know that you feed raw, make a few trips to the local ethnic markets...you might be amazed at what they offer for human consumption) I bring home the goods, baggie it up into meal portions and put in plastic baskets on one particular shelf of our freezer. I prefer to divvy up my foods by "chicken basket", "pork", "organs", "fish", you get the idea. 

After I bag up the food I am very careful to disinfect the counter top so as not to contaminate my family. And I would never consider doing the raw food bagging up while I am preparing a meal for my family at the same time. Just too much chance of cross contamination.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Do you all measure this stuff out, or do you approximate? After a while, I'm assuming you can just eyeball it? Also, say with the chicken quarters, that would be too much for my dogs for one meal, splitting one quarter into two meals shouldn't be a problem, should it?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

briteday said:


> 1. Pacific salmon...no, not ever. Too much of a risk, can be fatal to dogs. Besides, there's so much other fish out there to feed, why risk it.


It's only WILD CAUGHT salmon from the pacific NORTH WEST. SOME of them have a parasite that is dangerous to dogs. Freezing salmon for a few weeks will kill the parasite. Farmed salmon and salmon from other parts of the world are ok. Salmon is one of the most nutritious fish you can feed. Lots of O3's.



> 2. Cheap chicken finds..read the labels. I have recently been seeing the brands change at our Walmarts and some of them have up to 12% added salt water. Not good for you or your dog!


You are talking about enhanced chicken. It is injected with either a saline solution or with a chicken broth. Neither is real harmful. Saline solution is what they inject into you or your dog for dehydration. 80% of our and our dogs bodies are saline solution. It is critical for life. Broth is nothing more than chicken juice. It's the juice left over when chicken is cooked. It is used to enhance the flavor and moisture of the chicken. I have been feeding enhanced Walmart chicken to my dogs AT LEAST twice a week for 4 1/2 years. We all eat enhanced meats all the time. Who ever ate meat without putting salt, pepper and other flavors on it? Most of the meats you get at the grocery stores these days is enhanced, particularly at those stores that don't cut the meat on premisis. Enhancements are nothing to fear.



> 3. Trich in pork...not completely eradicated even in the US. I work in the medical filed and there have been recent articles about this. I feed pork to both my human and dogs/cat. But we plan ahead so that we can freeze for 30 days before eating. Aos buy from a reputable source. I would not be looking for pork at my local ethnic (in my case hispanic or asian) markets.


If you are talking about grocery store pork, there is no problem. There has been no trich found in domestic farm raised pork since 1992. There is no danger in the US, Canada, Austrilia, Great Britian and most of western Europe. If you are feeding a wild boar or pig or a pig raised by a farmer not selling to grocery stores, it would be a good idea to freeze the meat for a few weeks before feeding. I have been feeding grocery store pork to my dogs at least once a week for 6 years with no problems. I rarely freeze it as I usually feed it the day I get it.

All the rest of briteday's post is very informative and accurate.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

Alright well I am just about ready to start feeding my dog a prey model diet soon. 

I just have a question for all the raw feeders do you add supplements to your food? I know some do and some don't it is all a matter of opinion and I know it isn't really necessary, but I still am curious to who does it.

I am thinking of giving my puppy a fish oil tablet a few times a week along with feeding her fish of some sort once a week. I am also debating giving my puppy a Glucosamine and Chondroitin supplement a few times a week as well.

What is your guys opinions on supplements and do you do it?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> I just have a question for all the raw feeders do you add supplements to your food? I know some do and some don't it is all a matter of opinion and I know it isn't really necessary, but I still am curious to who does it.


Hehe, I think you mean do we add it to our dogs foodl.  There is no need to give any supplements to a healthy dog. Your dog may have some physical problem that would benefit from one or another of the supplements. Giving supplements "just because" is a waste of time and money. For example if a dog is getting all he needs of a certain nutrient in his diet, giving him more will not do any good. Your dog will get all the nutrients he needs with a prey model raw diet with one possible exception. If you feed only or mostly grocery store meats, bones, and organs, the diet is probably low in Omega 3 fatty acids. A fish oil capsule occasionally will take care of that or just feeding some wild caught fish occasionally will be sufficient. I try to feed my dogs salmon, mackerel or sardines at least once a week. I give no other supplements at all with one exception listed below.



> I am also debating giving my puppy a Glucosamine and Chondroitin supplement a few times a week as well.


I wouldn't give it to a puppy just because puppies in general don't need it. If you know the puppy has a joint problem then yes, but otherwise no. When the puppy starts to become a senior citizen, then yes definately give it. I give my 8yo Dane 4 Glucosamine, Chondroitin, and MSM pills/day. 

There is also a good deal of glucosimine built into the prey model diet.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> There is also a good deal of glucosimine built into the prey model diet.


Good to know! What if you dog doesn't eat all that you provide him? Do you just freeze it again and give it to him again for his next meal?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Good to know! What if you dog doesn't eat all that you provide him? Do you just freeze it again and give it to him again for his next meal?


Hehe, that's never happened in 6 years of raw feeding but if it ever does, I will just put it back in the fridge and offer it again next meal.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I have been evaluating my younger dog's raw diet and find his diet is low in iodine, potassium, manganese, magnesium and iron. Low in vitamin E but I am already supplementing that. Probably more but that is all I recall off hand. Compare the AAFCO to what you can find out about the foods you are offering your dog from websites like USDA and nutritiondata it will really help you understand and feel sure you are doing right by your dog.

I am adding a mineral supplement and kelp to my dog's diet. I will be giving him glucoasmine, vitamin E, fish oil and kelp.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=662
http://www.nutritiondata.com/


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> I have been evaluating my younger dog's raw diet and find his diet is low in iodine, potassium, manganese, magnesium and iron. Low in vitamin E but I am already supplementing that.


What kind of raw diet are you feeding? I have been feeding a raw diet for 6 years and have never given a supplement of any kind until I started my older dog on glucosamine a few weeks ago. Feed a dog a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals ... mostly meat, some bone, and some organs and he will get all the nutrients he need for a long and healthy life. It has worked like that for millions of years.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Striker2807 said:


> Alright well I am just about ready to start feeding my dog a prey model diet soon.
> 
> I just have a question for all the raw feeders do you add supplements to your food? I know some do and some don't it is all a matter of opinion and I know it isn't really necessary, but I still am curious to who does it.
> 
> ...


I supplement with fish oil tablets and Solid Gold Seameal. The former because they do not get enough O3s from the regular raw meats I can find at my local supermarket (RawFedDogs touched on this); the latter because I find it just makes their coats look great. 

When my raw-fed dog (prey model) was on kibble last year, she had noticeable problems with stiffness, especially while climbing stairs and just after waking. She was slowing down SO much, even when I supplemented with glucosamine and chondroitin. I started her on raw at the start of this year and the problem is now reduced to a small amount of stiffness right after she wakes up, which is completely gone after she has a good stretch. She is going on ten this month and still runs up to 4 miles with me, with no joint problems. 

In short - no, I don't think you would need to provide any joint supplements. A raw diet, if properly fed, should take care of all your dog's glucosamine needs.


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## JayBarnes (Jan 8, 2008)

Have any of you gave your dog the little cornish game hens? I found some for about a buck each at Wal-Mart and was wondering if they were okay to feed them.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JayBarnes said:


> Have any of you gave your dog the little cornish game hens? I found some for about a buck each at Wal-Mart and was wondering if they were okay to feed them.


I have never fed them but they are just small chickens. No reason not to feed them, particularly if they are cheap.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

OK well I think I have had all my questions answered! Let me just sum it up really quick to make sure I have the basic idea.

Feed your dog a variety of meat, with some bone, and some organ and it will all balance over time. With Organ meat you will want to feed it a few times a mouth and make sure you throw fish in there say at least once a week? 

Also just out of curious because I won't be feeding a small dog raw, but how would you feed a small dog raw? Wouldn't you need to take extra precaution with bones? Also I was reading an article in a magazine today that said bones carry no nutritional value I thought it provided things like calcium?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Feed your dog a variety of meat, with some bone, and some organ and it will all balance over time. With Organ meat you will want to feed it a few times a mouth and make sure you throw fish in there say at least once a week?


You got it! Just don't forget to begin slowly. Chicken only for a couple of weeks, then add turkey to the diet on the third week. That week feed mostly chicken but some turkey too. The next week add some pork into the mix. The next week some fish. The next week beef. Don't feed any organs for a couple of months and then feed liver in VERY small amounts and each time you feed it, feed larger amounts until you are feeding a good size glob. 



> Also just out of curious because I won't be feeding a small dog raw, but how would you feed a small dog raw?


No, you just feed appropriate size meals. Tiny dogs eat tiny meals.



> Wouldn't you need to take extra precaution with bones?


No



> Also I was reading an article in a magazine today that said bones carry no nutritional value I thought it provided things like calcium?


Bones contain calcium and have great dental value in that they clean teeth as they are being chewed. They are a necessary part of a any diet and necessary for good health.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Bones are very nutritious! Here is what is in one bone meal supplement. Bone meal is dried ground bone only, nothing added and see all the good stuff in there. They provide most of the minerals a dog needs daily. MOST. Not all.

http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/161142.html

I weigh my dog's food. It is such a small amount of food it is easy to overfed. A small digital scale is a great tool.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> Bone meal is dried ground bone only, nothing added and see all the good stuff in there.


Bone meal does not prevent periodontal disease like whole bones do. Bone meal CAN stick together in the gut similar to concrete and cause an intestinal obstruction. Feeding whole animal parts with bone included is safer than feeding bone meal.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I agree, not suggesting using it. I posted that so others could see the good stuff bone has in it. It isn't just calcium and phosphorus.


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## JayBarnes (Jan 8, 2008)

Ok. I've got a question that has been bugging me ever since I've started feeding raw. What do you do when your dog has just ate a raw chicken meal and he comes up and wants to lick all over you? I clean the sink with clorox, along with my hands, after each feeding of raw. But I go right back out and want to pet on my dog and when his mouth gets near my hand I feel that I have to go right back in the house and wash my hands again. I may be worrying about it too much but I dont think so. Someone tell me what you do after you feed your dogs to keep all the bacteria at bay. I love the thought of feeding my dog healthy, but I dont want to get sick because of it.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

What do you normally do if your dog licks you? You know he spends a lot of time licking himself, sniffing excrement, etc. If you are worried about it, wash up.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Believe me, raw food is not the most bacteria-ridden thing your dog has put in his mouth...

Bacteria isn't confined to the piece of meat that you give your dog. Bacteria is EVERYWHERE. It's in your dog's mouth all the time, not just right after a meal. It's on your counters, doorknobs and it's on your computer keyboard. Just use common sense like you would for anything.


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

a few random thoughts on raw - 

First, I do give ours a little bit of kibble - red meat Evo (it's grain-free, low carb) for training treats and cookies because it's easy to handle individual pieces and they like it, and either Evo or Ziwi Peak (mostly dried meat, also grain free) for my SAR pack. I add a bunch of rendered beef fat to the kibble to raise the caloric density, and the high saturated fat level helps prevent oxidation. I wouldn't feed kibble as a regular diet but for traveling, backpacking and other applications where you need a high-density feed that doesn't require refrigeration there are some choices out there.

As far as bones preventing tooth decay/gum disease, I don't think the mechanical action of chewing bones is as much of a factor as the fact that a good raw meaty bone/prey model diet is very low in sugar/starch which feeds the kind of bacteria that cause decay and periodontitis, as well as better for the immune system and less likely to cause inflammation in general than a grain/carbohydrate based diet. This is exactly the same effect seen in humans eating a paleolithic (low-carb, low grain) diet. The teeth and gums stay healthy without dental care. So if you have to grind or break up bones for a pet missing teeth, I wouldn't sweat it.

Omega-3 fatty acids - not a lot is needed, just enough to balance the intake of omega-6 fatty acids. Total polyunsaturates (PUFAs) should be a very small portion of fat intake. Why? PUFAs are highly unstable. They oxidize easily and create "free radicals" in the body contributing to inflammatory disease and compromised immune function. Minimize n-6 intake by eliminating grains from the diet and you need less n-3 as well. However, the fat in factory farmed animals tends to be higher in n-6 FAs because THEY are fattened on grain. So unless you are feeding your pets mainly grass-finished free range meat (and most of us can't afford that), it's probably not a bad idea to give them a little fish oil.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JayBarnes said:


> What do you do when your dog has just ate a raw chicken meal and he comes up and wants to lick all over you?


I let him. Even when he licks my face and mouth right after eating, it's ok.



> I clean the sink with clorox, along with my hands, after each feeding of raw.


I wash my hands in soap and water and wipe down the counter with a damp rag. Nothing more except sometimes I wipe the counter with a Lysol wipe if I happen to feed some particularly rotten meat.



> I may be worrying about it too much but I dont think so.


Yeah, you are. 



> Someone tell me what you do after you feed your dogs to keep all the bacteria at bay. I love the thought of feeding my dog healthy, but I dont want to get sick because of it.


I don't do anything special. Neither me nor any of my family nor my grandchildren, nor any visitors to my house have gotten sick from my dogs after 6 years of feeding raw. Bacteria is everywhere. It's no worse when you feed raw. One important fact to remember ... any germ that doesn't kill you is good for you. 



wyx said:


> As far as bones preventing tooth decay/gum disease, I don't think the mechanical action of chewing bones is as much of a factor as the fact that a good raw meaty bone/prey model diet is very low in sugar/starch which feeds the kind of bacteria that cause decay and periodontitis, as well as better for the immune system and less likely to cause inflammation in general than a grain/carbohydrate based diet.


Good point but what about all the dogs I have seen and heard of that are exactly like mine. They begin a raw diet (with bones) while they have very nasty teeth and periodontal disease. A few weeks after starting the diet, all those things go away.

My vet kept after me to let her clean my two Golden's teeth for 3 years. Every visit, I heard the lecture about teeth. On a visit 3 months after starting raw, she exclaimed at how clean they were and wanted to know how I cleaned them so well myself. Of course I didn't do anything other than feed a raw diet with bones included.

Bones won't make cavities go away but will take care of most any other dental problem. I have seen it tighten up loose teeth. I have seen periodontitis disappear. Bone meal or ground bone won't do any of those things.


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Good point but what about all the dogs I have seen and heard of that are exactly like mine. They begin a raw diet (with bones) while they have very nasty teeth and periodontal disease. A few weeks after starting the diet, all those things go away.
> 
> My vet kept after me to let her clean my two Golden's teeth for 3 years. Every visit, I heard the lecture about teeth. On a visit 3 months after starting raw, she exclaimed at how clean they were and wanted to know how I cleaned them so well myself. Of course I didn't do anything other than feed a raw diet with bones included.
> 
> Bones won't make cavities go away but will take care of most any other dental problem. I have seen it tighten up loose teeth. I have seen periodontitis disappear. Bone meal or ground bone won't do any of those things.


No doubt there are benefits to eating bones, but I don't think that non-recreational bones really do anything for cleaning teeth. When my dogs eat a raw meaty bone they don't spend a whole lot of time chewing it. It's more like chomp, chomp, swallow, gone. The bone is inside the meat/skin and probably doesn't even come in contact with more than the tips of the carnassials.

The benefit to a RMB diet is that the conditions in the mouth don't encourage plaque formation and bacterial decay in the first place. In other words, you would probably see the same benefit whether you feed your dog whole bones or grind them. Try it on yourself - eat a diet very low in carbohydrate for awhile and see what happens to your gum health. My periodontal disease has almost completely reversed (much to the surprise of my dentist), and it's not because I spend a lot of time chewing on bones.


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## JayBarnes (Jan 8, 2008)

I've not been feeding prey model raw for about a week now. At first my dog was crazy about raw chicken. But now he doesn't seem to enthused when I throw him a chicken quarter. I know he'll eat it before he starves but I would like for him to like what he's eating. Husky's dont eat a whole lot so maybe I'm trying to over feed him, one thing I've found that he doesn't like at all are chicken legs. Very rarely will he eat the leg off of a chicken quarter. He eats around it and leaves it laying. Anyone else have this problem. Also, what meats have you fed your dogs that they seem to really really like? Thanks in advance.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

JayBarnes said:


> I know he'll eat it before he starves but I would like for him to like what he's eating. Husky's dont eat a whole lot so maybe I'm trying to over feed him, one thing I've found that he doesn't like at all are chicken legs. Very rarely will he eat the leg off of a chicken quarter.


Feeding a couple of chicken quarters a day shouldn't be over feeding a husky. Give him some time. He is just starting and eating this stuff is more work than eating kibble out of a bowl. He will get used to it. If he isn't loosing weight, don't worry about how much he is eating. As long as he maintains a proper build he is eating exactly the right amount.



> Also, what meats have you fed your dogs that they seem to really really like?


I have one dog that doesn'tn particularly like turkey but he eats it because he knows he isn't getting anything else until he does. My dogs love pork, beef and venison. They will eat fish but don't really care of it too much either.

If you haven't already, check out my web page at http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm It should answer a lot of your questions.


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## JayBarnes (Jan 8, 2008)

I'll check it out. Thanks for the help.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

Well I just fed my puppy her last bowl of kibble this morning and I am now going to go to Walmart and buy me some chicken quarters for my puppy. I was hoping to wait to wait till Friday, but oh well.

I am excited and nervous at the same time! We will see come dinner time how she does!

*[UPDATE]*
Well I just tried to give my puppy a chicken quarter and all she did was lick it for 45 minutes. Then after we got back inside she ran and ate the last little bit of the other dogs kibble so she is hungry I just don't think she realizes that she is suppose to eat the chicken quarter. So I am thinking of maybe putting it in her food bowl in a few hours and see if that helps.

From what everyone has said I am assuming this is common? Is there anything I can do or just be patience and eventually she will get the idea and start eating it?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Well I just tried to give my puppy a chicken quarter and all she did was lick it for 45 minutes.


Thats pretty common. She doesn't know it's food and even if she does, you need to realize that eating a chicken quarter is a lot different physically than eating kibble. It is a whole different process. It's something she has to work out on her own. She has to learn how to eat it. You might try cutting some strips of meat so they are hanging on it but still mostly attached. It will give her something to hold on to and pull off.



> So I am thinking of maybe putting it in her food bowl in a few hours and see if that helps.


You should feed her in the same spot she has always eaten. If you worry about mess or germs(I don't), you can put down an old towel or plastic table cloth for her to eat on ... OR you can babygate her in the kitchen. The kitchen floor is very easy to clean up after a meal.



> Is there anything I can do or just be patience and eventually she will get the idea and start eating it?


Be patient and don't make a big deal out of it. If you don't make it a big deal, it won't become a big deal. It may take her a couple of days or so to figure it out. Don't worry, she will be ok. Whatever she doesn't eat, put back in the fridge for next meal. If it takes are an hour to eat it, its ok. She will get faster.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

Well I am still not having luck with my puppy eating the chicken quarters no matter what I do all she will do is lick it and turn her head. I have tried all your advice given her and hour and she won't even touch it.

She did manage to steal a huge bowl of kibble the other day but I am giving her till Saturday to eat the Chicken quarter. If she doesn't I am going back to kibble didn't want to do that, but I don't know what else to do.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Well I am still not having luck with my puppy eating the chicken quarters no matter what I do all she will do is lick it and turn her head. I have tried all your advice given her and hour and she won't even touch it.


I think I worded my last response to you poorly. As long as she is playing with it, licking it, etc. leave it out. Once 10 minutes have passed with no interest in it, take it up until next meal time. Don't give any treats or snacks between meals.

What age and size puppy are we talking about here? I forgot.



> She did manage to steal a huge bowl of kibble the other day but I am giving her till Saturday to eat the Chicken quarter.


Her eating the kibble set you back a few days. Get the kibble out of the house. She still thinks it the only food there. Did you cut some strips of meat to hang off the quarter but yet still attached? DId she do anything with those?



> If she doesn't I am going back to kibble didn't want to do that, but I don't know what else to do.


Hehe, Patience, patience, patience ... We still have other tricks up our sleeves. We are humans, she is a puppy ... we are smarter than she is. We CAN outsmart her. I need to know her age and size before we decide what our next course of action will be.

I want you to describe to me EXACTLY what you do from when you take the quarter out of the fridge til when you put it back. Are you giving her the quarter in her normal eating place? Are you standing back and let her decide what to do with it? Are you staying quiet and not trying to coach her? Often times owners get so involved in trying to get the dog to eat that she just gets confused and stops doing anything because she is confused. You need to just stand back, don't say anything and let her decide how to handle that big piece of meat. Don't hover over her.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

wyx said:


> a few random thoughts on raw -
> 
> As far as bones preventing tooth decay/gum disease, I don't think the mechanical action of chewing bones is as much of a factor as the fact that a good raw meaty bone/prey model diet is very low in sugar/starch which feeds the kind of bacteria that cause decay and periodontitis, as well as better for the immune system and less likely to cause inflammation in general than a grain/carbohydrate based diet. This is exactly the same effect seen in humans eating a paleolithic (low-carb, low grain) diet. The teeth and gums stay healthy without dental care. So if you have to grind or break up bones for a pet missing teeth, I wouldn't sweat it.
> 
> ...


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Striker2807 said:


> Well I am still not having luck with my puppy eating the chicken quarters no matter what I do all she will do is lick it and turn her head. I have tried all your advice given her and hour and she won't even touch it.


Since raw meat doesn't carry much of a smell, you might want to try throwing in the chicken quarter in a hot pan for a few seconds on both sides, don't cook it, just toss it in long enough to smell it up a bit for a couple days in a row. I had to do that with Disco until she got the taste for the raw meat - and NO, doing that in the beginning did not create a picky dog.


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I think I worded my last response to you poorly. As long as she is playing with it, licking it, etc. leave it out. Once 10 minutes have passed with no interest in it, take it up until next meal time. Don't give any treats or snacks between meals.
> 
> What age and size puppy are we talking about here? I forgot.
> 
> ...


Well I think she is doing good now! Right after I posted that she started showing interest in the chicken quarter! She still doesn't know what to do with it, but she is starting to drag it around my room (which is where I usually feed her) and trying to figure it out. Not to mention she is getting excited about eating now I feel that in a matter of a few days she will have it figured out.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Well that's a good start! Keep us posted!


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## Striker2807 (May 27, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> Well I just gave her and hour and though she didn't eat much of it she did start trying to tear off some pieces so she is definitely starting to pick up the idea.
> 
> Like I said a few days she should have the general idea!


It was like she wanted to prove to me that she already had the general idea because not even a minute after posting this post she want into canine overdrive attacking that chicken quarter.

To say the least I am going to pull a chicken quarter for the morning right now!


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I would also be careful about the chicken you are buying, I think you mentioned Walmart. Some of the chicken I've looked at, especially when I stop in after seeing a great sale in the paper, has up to 18% added salt water. That's an awful lot of salt for a human or a dog. I've also known some local raw feeders who had problems when one of the stores changed their supplier on the cheap chicken quarters, their dog started having a bit of gi distress and refusing meals. So read the fine print carefully and try to find the best that you can reasonably afford. So far, unless one of the local groceries has a good sale on the "better" brands (not injected with tons of salt) I can always find whole chickens at Costco For < $1/lb.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Striker2807 said:


> It was like she wanted to prove to me that she already had the general idea because not even a minute after posting this post she want into canine overdrive attacking that chicken quarter.
> 
> To say the least I am going to pull a chicken quarter for the morning right now!


Cool!! Way to go, puppy!!   



briteday said:


> I would also be careful about the chicken you are buying, I think you mentioned Walmart. Some of the chicken I've looked at, especially when I stop in after seeing a great sale in the paper, has up to 18% added salt water.


Most of them are 12% and thats NOT 12% salt. Thats 12% saline solution vs the weight of the meat. Our bodies and our dogs bodies are around 70% saline solution anyway. A chicken's body is 70% saline solution. They solution begins to drain out of the body when an animal dies. The longer an animal is dead, the drier his meat is. Adding back the saline solution is just making the meat more moist and tastier again. It won't be long before you can't buy meat of any kind without it being "enhanced" like this. The entire meat industry is heading in that direction.

Saline solution is what the doctor gives you or your dog when you are dehydrated. Most anytime you go to an emergency with a significant injury the first thing they do is start injecting saline solution into you.

All in all it's harmless. I've been feeding Walmart enhanced chicken quarters at least 2 times a week sometimes as much as 5 times in a week for 4 1/2 years with no adverse effects.



> That's an awful lot of salt for a human or a dog.


If it were 18% salt you would be right.



> I've also known some local raw feeders who had problems when one of the stores changed their supplier on the cheap chicken quarters, their dog started having a bit of gi distress and refusing meals.


I have known some that claimed that but they didn't run sufficient tests to determine it for sure. I doubt that it was saline solution that caused the problem. Saline solution in meat is pretty innert.


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