# Neurotic Dogs



## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

Hello. I have a 2 year old Vizla (male). I got him from a reputable breeder in Iowa. I am constantly searching for information about training etc, and always seem to come across your site. You seem to know a lot about the breed. My vizsla was crate trained and actually does pretty well in a crate. However, he seems to be becoming a little neurotic. I think this is due to separation anxiety. I taught him all the basics and even some advanced obedience and agility but he cannot calm down when I or anyone else arrive home. He jumps excessively, dribbles pee, even pushes my nephews down and licks their faces. I have tried 3 different reputable trainiers in the area none can seem to aleiviate this. When I leave the room for a minute he will get whatever he can find and destroy it and whine until you come back (even if you leave the room for 10 minutes). He does do okay in the crate though. He gets plenty of exercise (1 mile jog in the morning, .5 mile jog at night, and about 1-1.5 hr of playing fetch on our 1 acre lot.) I have heard Vizslas can easily become neurotic and that seems to be the case. We love our vizsla he is the greatest dog but these problems tend to make visitors not want to come over. Do you have any suggestions?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Is there a reason he is left alone in a room by himself for 10 minutes? It sounds like you are practicing social isolation but, you didn't say what you are trying to accomplish or what behavior you are trying to change by doing that.


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## Fetch (Feb 5, 2008)

I had a dog like this when I was growing up. He never changed. He had separation anxiety similar to this his whole life. I have heard of things like clomicalm for dogs but Im not sure that is the best approach.


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

I was going to start building up to me leaving the house for an hour or so. So I started leaving for 1 min then come back, then 2 min then 3 etc etc and he always goes nuts. The reason you can really tell he has separation anxiety or whatever it is is how he reacts when new people come over or my wife and I come home from work. He goes absolutely nuts. He cant contain himself.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

If this was the approach recommended by the trainers (to socially isolate the dog) they may have left out a critical piece on the technique. After the dog is isolated you want to come back and see a nice, calm behavior...a sit, a down, standing quietly, going directly to the potty area...any nice behavior will do.
It's all about attention and what is getting rewarded. The dog will offer something good on his own after trying several things when you return to get your attention...you have to catch the good stuff and reward it. 
Social isolation is a powerful behavior modification technique but, if you don't immediately reward the good behavior(s) when it is offered, you can make things worse as the dog is not sure what you want him to do or what will earn your attention. Just a reminder...attention means looking, talking, touching..so, if your dog is behaving badly even looking at them is giving them attention.


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

It is kinda hard to explain. There is no good behavior to reward. When you come home from work, and look at him in his kennel (he is only in there 2-3 hours a day) you actually look at him and think he is going to seriously injure himself because he is going so crazy when he sees you. And when you let him out he knocks you down and licks your face constantly. However this behaviour only lasts about 10-20 min then he settles down. But then if someone else comes over it starts back over again. I have never seen a dog act like this. He jumps up as high as your head runs circles around you just generally goes crazy. He hasnt always done this. It developed about the time he was 8 months old. It is the only thing he does wrong (greeting us/visitors). And we think it is due to his terrible separation anxiety. If you have any ideas Im open.


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## NeedleNoseLuvR (Sep 19, 2007)

Ok, first off you have a two year old vizla and at this age he is still very much a puppy. Sorry, but some of the sporting breeds just don't calm down until they're four or five years old. What's his name, BTW?

He needs to learn how to properly greet you and your guests. I don't see out-of-control greetings to be 'separation anxiety'. I think this is a separate issue. To calm him down you and everyone else needs to ignore him when you first come home. Put him outside to potty. Then let him back in. Don't make a big deal of it. Don't let anyone else greet him in a high key, excited way. Keep your voice calm and your body movements calm. Do this for as long as it takes for him to settle down. Then give him nice low key greeting , a 'good boy' and maybe a brief ear scritch. If he gets excited - ignore him. It will take time to change his behavior - maybe weeks - you and everybody else will just have to stick with it. If you are running off at the mouth while he's going nuts - i.e. no, no, no! or 'get down! or whatever he just thinks you're greeting him. You have to speak low key i.e. 'Let's go out.' (Put him outside to potty.) Let him back in and ignore him. If he's calm give a treat and verbal praise (low key). If he's hyper, ignore him until he calms down. Save the excited high key stuff for game time (fetch, etc.) or agility training, someplace where it's appropriate to bounce around.

I don't understand why he's left alone in another room? My dogs follow me from room to room (except the bathroom). That's normal dog behavior to want to be where ever the alpha goes. If I didn't want an animal that wants to be with me most of the time I would only have cats. When I cook they (dogs and cats) have to stay out of the kitchen and out from under foot (I hate tripping over a 65 lb. dog), but they can watch me from the dining room door. This is just a matter of training. 

He wants to be with you and this is normal. If he can't be with you - put him in his crate. Even for ten minutes. That's much better than coming back into the room and finding something torn up. You're mad, he's gets upset because you're mad (he doesn't really know why, just that whenever you disappear, you come back mad or upset). This makes him more anxious and more likely to tear something up. If you leave him out and he tears something up - it's your fault not his. Personally, I would just let him follow me around the house.

Vizlas are beautiful, high energy dogs that can take a little longer to mature mentally. This does not make them a 'neurotic' breed. If you keep working with him in a couple of years you will have a mature, well-behaved companion. Oh, and lots and lots of exercise. 

What's his name? We would love to see pictures!


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

I understand. Here's what I'd do: When you get home, open the kennel, don't say anything and walk directly to the potty area..if it's not fenced then on leash. Walk briskly with no talking, petting or looking. If he jumps, hold out your hand like a stop sign...still no talking...if his nose hits your hand that's OK...I'm NOT saying hit the dog on purpose...he's the one that committed the foul. Immediately praise when all 4 feet are on the ground and continue walking.
What you're trying to do is provide an alternate activity...a potty break with a walk or a chance to run off some energy...something good. Again, if the yard is fenced you can throw a ball or have a game of frisbee after the potty....that's when the attention comes in...for good play or walking briskly with you. 
I know that sounds easier than it actually is...he's probably going to run in circles or paw and jump at you and you have to ignore it (except for the jumping/just block it)...he's trying to get your attention...don't give it to him....show him he has to earn it by doing something nice.
Greeting strangers will still be a issue. The usual approach is to teach the dog to sit for greetings/petting. The problem with the sit is it's usually very short lived and the dog jumps up anyway. Your guests need to use the same tactic of the stop sign with the hand while standing still and again, praise when all 4 feet are on the floor.


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

@NeedleNoseLuvR his name is Drake. I can post pictures when I get home. I understand what your suggesting and all of it is good information. However, that is how we have treated him for almost 2 years. The problem is, no matter if you ignore him what, he will run around you and around you jumping up at your face, sometimes with paws out, weve had guests get scratched, etc, and nothing is calming him down. It is not exercise, as I said before he gets a LOT of it. 2 miles of jogging a day + 1-2 hr of FREE RUN and fetch etc etc. The reason he is left in the room is a method we have read and heard from trainers to try to teach the puppy that you ARE coming back. You leave him for a minute, then come back. then 2 minutes, then come back, then 3, 4, 5 etc etc. Until he can stay out for 1 or 2 hours and KNOW you are coming back and not destroying stuff. I know separation anxiety is throw around alot, but when your worried that a dog is going to injure himself because you leave the room, or come home, I think there is something going on there.



@TooneyDogs I hear what your saying. I will give this method some more trying. This tactic is what is currently being used but is just not working. The dog is so well mannered EXCEPT for greeting people and when you leave him to go somehwere (in his crate or what have you). He is soooo attached to people and this is a good thing, however, it has also caused what I beleive to be a case of separation anxiety. He can sit, stay (for about 15 min), come, down, etc etc, but all that goes out the window when he is left, or you come home. I wish i could post a video to give everyone a clear picture of why I believe this dog actually might have a bad case of separation anxiety because i know the term is thrown around often.


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## NeedleNoseLuvR (Sep 19, 2007)

Well, I'm a little confused. 



> 'My vizsla was crate trained and actually does pretty well in a crate.'


Most dogs with S.A. fight a crate, sometimes to the point of injuring themselves. Is he no longer accepting the crate? What does he do in the crate when you leave? Do you leave a toy for him? Maybe a Kong stuffed with peanut butter would help him adjust to your leaving. If he's lying calmly in the crate while you're gone and only getting overly excited when you come home that's not S.A. If you are trying to train him to be allowed loose in the house while you are gone and he gets destructive, well, I have a couple of dogs like that too. I crate my dogs when I'm gone. Some dogs can never be trusted loose in the house alone. I also feed my dogs in their crates.



> 'However this behaviour only lasts about 10-20 min then he settles down.'


This seems to be a greeting problem and not S.A. If he's jumping on everyone, put him on a leash when you take him out of his crate or you have guests. And yes you have to be strong and ignore him for the 10 minutes or so it takes for him to calm down. If you give in and pay any attention to him you have just taught him persistence pays off.

As TooneyDogs and I have said, you have to ignore him when he's bouncing off the walls greeting you. Do you have a fenced back yard? Let him out immediately when you get home. Take him out on a leash if you don't. Turn away from him when he jumps at you, You can use your forearm to block him if he jumps that high or body block him. But ignore him. What are you doing now when he acts like this? It will take time to change his behavior since it has gone on for so long. 

As far as trainers go - you might need to find a certified behaviorist, not an obedience trainer, that can work with you and Drake one on one. A behaviorist would be able to tell if this is really S.A. and give you a way to hopefully correct the problem. Notice, I said, give you a plan. The behaviorist will basically teach you how to work through Drake's problems.

It's very hard on an internet forum to offer advice on training problems since we can't see the dog in action or see how you respond to the behavior. How you respond is a huge factor in fixing the problem. Take a step back and think through exactly what you do in response to his jumping and destructiveness.


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

Ok this is my fault for not explaining well. I am doing my best for a forum environment. He does well in a crate when we are home. Sometimes we will crate him for a brief period if we are cleaning up around the house etc. Here is the reason I thought it was SA. Here are the symptoms I found:


The dog always shows these behaviors when left alone, even for short periods (30 minutes or less). 
 The dog is wild to greet you, and is still stressed, anxious and clingy when you first arrive home. The dog does not appear "guilty" over destroyed items. 
 Destruction begins soon after you leave; or possibly again shortly before you come home. 
 The dog cannot be isolated from you at any time, even in a different room with the door closed. 
 The dog sleeps with you. (This does not mean that all dogs who sleep with their owners will get separation anxiety. It does mean that dogs that survive being apart from you at night can survive it during the day, too). 
 Sometimes, the dog can be left alone in a car (for any length of time) or other unusual location, without showing anxiety or destructiveness. 
 Sometimes the dog can be left with anyone; sometimes it is one particular person whose absence triggers the anxiety or issues. 
 The dog gets increasingly distressed as you prepare to leave. 
 The dog is constantly following you and demanding your attention when you are home.

My dog exhibits ALL of these and then some.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

You left out a few very important things about separation anxiety (SA). 
It is a neurological disorder and bloodwork will confirm that an imbalance is present. It is 80% medical and only 20% behaviorial. SA usually involves inappropriate defecation and urination during your absence and sometimes self-mutilation.


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## NeedleNoseLuvR (Sep 19, 2007)

If I understand you right - then he's not really crate trained. He's never been crated at night? or when you leave the house? Did you use the crate during house breaking? When you said he did well in a crate I thought you meant that he was crate trained and could stay in a crate at night or while you were gone.

Have you tried applying the 'alone training' while he's in his crate? I.e. leaving him in the crate for longer and longer times. Would you be willing to work on crate training him? Use the 'alone training' techniques and feed him in his crate, you can leave the door open at first. Do not free feed - feed him twice a day. Give him his favorite treats in his crate. Teach him that the crate is where good things happen. I would also have him sleep in his crate and not with you or at least on a dog bed on the bedroom floor.

One of the biggest problems for dogs with S.A. is urinating or defecating in the house when the owner leaves. Does he do this?

Is he an only dog? If so, then you are his 'pack' and vizlas were bred to work closely with a human so that makes them even more clingy and in need of a structured environment and routine.

If you are trying to get me to agree that he has S.A. I'm not qualified to make that diagnosis. Did the trainers you talked too/ worked with tell you he has S.A.? If he does it will probably take working with a behaviorist to fix.


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

He is crate trained. He is crated at night. He is also crated when I leave. If I am home and I tell him to kennel he goes right in and is fine there. Crate training was also used during house breaking. He takes naps in there when I am home even with the door open. He seems to like it very well. EXCEPT when I am about to leave or I come home. No I am not trying to get anyone to agree. I am going to get him tested at the vet. All I am doing is trying to see what steps I should take and you guys have both done that very well. The only thing I am doing now is trying to explain to you why I originally felt the need to post this topic. He does not pee or poop in the house when left alone, but I have a hard time believing that 1 symptom missing of 14 or 15 means he definately DOES NOT have it. Now, that being said, SA is over used big time. That is why I was asking about steps I could take to rule out SA. It seems everything being suggested has been tried by me or the first 2 trainers, or the behaviorist we have seen. So my next step will be vet care to make the proper decision. Thanks for all your help in solving this matter.


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## Fetch (Feb 5, 2008)

Do you have a picture?


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

Here is our vizsla


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## NeedleNoseLuvR (Sep 19, 2007)

DuckHunter, I truely believe that what you have in Drake is a 2 year old male vizla that needs time to grow up. In the mean time, keep working him; in obedience, in agililty, work him around the house, teach him to pick things up off the floor and give them to you. By the way, vizlas respond best to positive training methods. I don't know your training philosophy but hard methods with a vizla can backfire and make them more insecure.

My dogs follow me from room to room, they want to be where I am - this is normal dog behavior. He's going to be clingy - he's a vizla. Let him follow you - this seems to bother you alot. Why?

Just about everyone on this forum has a story of turning around and finding out their dog destroyed something while their back was turned or while they were gone. Inga tells of one of her Rotties that ate a hole in her drywall - the dog probably does not have S.A. My six year old greyhound, Lacey, chewed the corner off a hardback book just a couple of days ago. I was home but on the computer. So she entertained herself. (I did tell her that ingesting it was not the same as reading it.LOL) She also gets goofy when I have guests and takes 5 or so minutes to calm down. She does not have S.A. 

All of this comes down to training and supervision and time. Most of these behaviors you list are normal to some extent or another - depending on breed, sex and age. I have had dogs that I could trust at six months and dogs I could never completely trust their whole lives. Dogs are individuals.

TooneyDogs, what imbalance do they test for? My understanding is that severe S.A. is treated with behavioral therapy augmented with drugs like 
clomipramine while milder cases may respond to behavioral therapy alone. I'm just asking. 

Just saw the pictures. He's beautiful. I just love that rusty red coat!


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

You misunderstand me, following me around doenst bother me at all. I love my dog and I love being around him. You seem to be dwelling on the closing him in a room thing. That is ONLY for training purposes. I dont stick my dog in a room when I want to get rid of him. I was told to do that to teach my dog that I will be right back and everything is OK. (It could very well be that this training method is not a good one, it was just what the behaviorist told me to do). My dog goes everywhere with me and I like that. The only thing that bothers me is people not wanting to come over for fear of getting "attacked" by my dog. We have spent almost 2 years working on it with no results. Did you get a chance to see the pictures? I know you wwere asking for one.



NeedleNoseLuvR said:


> TooneyDogs, what imbalance do they test for? My understanding is that severe S.A. is treated with behavioral therapy augmented with drugs like
> clomipramine while milder cases may respond to behavioral therapy alone. I'm just asking.



You are right that is how its treated. But the vet told me that a chemical imbalance within the dog causes these reactions. Clomipramine is used to balance out the imbalance, or at least thats what the vet told me.


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## NeedleNoseLuvR (Sep 19, 2007)

I just saw the pictures. He's beautiful. I love that rusty red coat!

I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to come across so rough. My greyhound, Lacey, is crated when guests first get here. Then I let her out when everyone is seated. She has to keep her 'feet on the floor' and I allow her to meet each person. After she gets to meet them we pretty much ignore her. When she was younger, I sometimes had to put her back in her crate to calm down. I don't allow her to jump on people - I hold her collar or leash her. If she behaves she gets a little treat. 

Maybe, you could have a friend come over to help you work on Drake's greeting people manners? Working on just that , without having entertain at the same time might help.


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## DuckHunter (Apr 13, 2007)

That is a great idea. And so simple, I cannot believe I didnt think about it. Especially if it was someone know was knowingly participating in training and didnt mind if they had to be the guinnea pig! You did not come off harsh, on these forums its just hard to get your points across and people are just doing their bests to get an idea of the problem.


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## NeedleNoseLuvR (Sep 19, 2007)

Find a 'guinnea pig' and try this with Drake. Let us know how it works out.

Phooey. I just checked another thread and it was SugarDaddyOtis's mastiff that chewed the drywall. Sorry Inga!


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

NeedleNoseLuvR said:


> TooneyDogs, what imbalance do they test for? My understanding is that severe S.A. is treated with behavioral therapy augmented with drugs like
> clomipramine while milder cases may respond to behavioral therapy alone. I'm just asking.


The screening is for chemical and neurological toxins/imbalances. There is no specific test for SA. Diagnosis is based on the symptoms and the fact that the blood panel is off. Treatment may involve correcting the imbalance along with anti-anxiety meds and behavior modification. Thyroid is probably the main culprit in these cases.
One of the most overlooked reasons for hyperactivity though and often overlooked by vets is a constant sugar high from the daily food. Vets often ask how much you feed but, not WHAT you feed.


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