# Please help! Im at my wits end!



## Tundra (Dec 22, 2008)

Hi Im new, I found this site because I am at my wits end and need some advice!! We have two 14 week old Aussie/lab mix puppies we acquired at 9 weeks of age. They were mostly outside puppies when we got them. 
My problem is they absolutely without a doubt refuse to be potty trained! They are being created, and do not poop in the create however sometimes will pee in it. I know they are still very young so I attribute that to small bladders. They are fed in the morning and at night Nutro puppy food and I limit their water. When we go outside if they go, I will reward them with a treat and a good boy. Since we got them there has been snow on the ground and they are more interested in eating the snow then going potty. In fact they will whine and scratch (another habit I cant get them to break)at the door to go outside but only to eat snow. So now I do not allow them to eat the snow (they are on leases) and I give them Ice cubes to munch on so as not to overload the bladder. All this to no avail. They go out regularly every hour and a half to 2 hours. They are crated when no one is home or at night. Yet they still go when and where they want! Even after coming right in 5 minutes later they will go on the floor. I am so frustrated!!! I've had young dogs trained in a week before and these two haven't made a lick of progress in a month!?!?! What is wrong with me/them? I know they are not stupid, they have learned to go in the crate when we tell them, they have stopped barking and (mostly) stopped jumping. But they do not budge on this. HELP!!!!!!!!


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

If they were previously outdoor dogs they could eliminate whenever the urge hit them. So I would keep them tethered or gated when they are indoors to minimize messes. Or, you may have to take them out hourly and keep them crated inbetween for a week or so unti lthey get the idea.

I've had this problem with foster dogs that have been at the shelter too long. They have learned to eliminate where they live so it takes much more patience to house train them.

Also, we had an aussie quite a while ago and she was a submissive piddler for the first few years. Any time the doorbell or phone rang the dog would squat! Are your dogs shy?


----------



## Tundra (Dec 22, 2008)

briteday said:


> Are your dogs shy?


Thanks for the reply! Ruger, the more Aussie looking one is alittle shy. His brother Bailey is much more bold (he is also very stubborn with jumping on things to pull stuff off of counters and chairs).


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Ditto to keeping them on a leash inside as well...you can much better pay attention to them when they are attached to your hip; just get a carabener hook, and clip a 4 foot lead to each of them and attach hook to your belt, or a belt loop; ofcourse two people will have a puppy attached to them! Or get a martingale attachment for two dogs, and clip the four footer to that, and to your belt. When you can't watch them, or are too involved with something, even with them on the lead, crate them, and save yourself the frustration of them piddling\pooing at your feet because you couldn't watch their actions. At 14 weeks, these guys are not going to be 'fool proof' for many, many months yet. 

What size crate are they in? You may have to make it smaller for them, so they aren't so 'invited' to piddle in the crate as well. If you have a wire kennel, they usually sell divider panels for them, so you could put that in, and either crate them separately in the kennel, or put them in a smaller area. Another trick that can work to teach a puppy not to piddle in his crate is to take his bed away when he does...they don't\won't like laying in a wet kennel bottom so usually will not pee when the bed is removed. My poodle puppy went through a 'I'm going to piddle my bed" phase and a week of not having a bed to be tempted to pee on (cause they can 'soak' one part, and lay on the dry area)stopped his bad habit. He has now graduated to a kennel that could fit a cocker spaniel very comfortably!


----------



## Tundra (Dec 22, 2008)

I'll try leashing them to me when I walk around the house. So far I have them either gated in the kitchen or they are blocked off in the living room if we are watching TV (They cannot get behind anything or under anything so they are fully supervised in the living room). Because these are the only 2 places I "trust" them they havnt even seen the rest of the house! Yesterday I decided to be bold and I let them in the upstairs office with me, and even though we had been outside potty 10 minutes before Ruger decided to poop in the office, probably because it was a new area. I don't expect them to be fool proof, I just want some light above the head like they get it! I expect an accident here and there but good lord!! They sleep in the same kennel, its a plastic airline type. I'd say its big enough for a 40 lb dog to turn around in. Since they are in there at the same time its just about big enough for them both to turn around. I have a towel in there now for them which is handy so when they do go they are not splashing pee all over when I let them out. But taking out the bedding makes sense- hopefully that will curb their mistakes! thanks for the advice, Im goin nuts!


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

I would take out the towel as well, too easy for them to pee on it. Also, I would get them seperate crates because if there is an accident, you couldn't tell who did it. Also, you don't want them to bond too closely to each other.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

What do you do when they crap?

Remember if you see them do it you have less than a minute to respond...that's the length of time the dog will connect the "punishment" to the behavior. 

I would scream at them like they are the worst dog in the world while "roughly" picking them up and bringing them outside. Once outside don't let them do ANYTHING until they at least attempt to finish the job they started. When and if they go..praise them like you love them unlike anything else in this world and give them a favorite treat.


----------



## 2malts4me (Aug 23, 2008)

wizer said:


> What do you do when they crap?
> 
> Remember if you see them do it you have less than a minute to respond...that's the length of time the dog will connect the "punishment" to the behavior.
> 
> *I would scream at them like they are the worst dog in the world while "roughly" picking them up and bringing them outside.* Once outside don't let them do ANYTHING until they at least attempt to finish the job they started. When and if they go..praise them like you love them unlike anything else in this world and give them a favorite treat.


 I don't think this is good advice at all. Why would you want to scream at a puppy like they are the worse dog in the world? What do you think this will accomplish other than making them afraid of you and want to try to hide from you when they did eliminate. Then you'd have a really hard time training them to do anything.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

wizer said:


> What do you do when they crap?
> 
> Remember if you see them do it you have less than a minute to respond...that's the length of time the dog will connect the "punishment" to the behavior.
> 
> I would scream at them like they are the worst dog in the world while "roughly" picking them up and bringing them outside. Once outside don't let them do ANYTHING until they at least attempt to finish the job they started. When and if they go..praise them like you love them unlike anything else in this world and give them a favorite treat.


This isn't correct at all. 

You've got about 5 seconds to respond, MAX - and any negative response is very likely to make it MUCH harder to get them to poop in front of you indoors OR out.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> This isn't correct at all.
> 
> You've got about 5 seconds to respond, MAX - and any negative response is very likely to make it MUCH harder to get them to poop in front of you indoors OR out.


The response has to be instantaneous, that's true...even less than 5 seconds, it has to be immediate. I do not think that correcting the dog verbally is wrong..although the intensity of the verbal correction can vary depending on the dogs age and temperment. 

At the very least, a stern "NO!" is in order. The dog needs to know that the behavior is unwanted and will not be tolerated. 

Like anything else, it's a matter of degree.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

wizer said:


> The response has to be instantaneous, that's true...even less than 5 seconds, it has to be immediate. I do not think that correcting the dog verbally is wrong..although the intensity of the verbal correction can vary depending on the dogs age and temperment.
> 
> At the very least, a stern "NO!" is in order. The dog needs to know that the behavior is unwanted and will not be tolerated.
> 
> Like anything else, it's a matter of degree.


Except that no, it's not. 

Verbal corrections may be effective on an adult dog who is already housebroken and has temporarily forgotten (usually weather related) their manners, or especially with boys who are tempted to mark indoors. With unhousebroken dogs an dpuppies, it's incredibly counterproductive. It teaches the dog, more than anything else, that you will scream at them for eliminating. Most people NEED their dogs to be able to poop when supervised, particularly if they live without a fenced yard. This is a GREAT way to create a 'shy bladder' in a dog.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> At the very least, a stern "NO!" is in order. The dog needs to know that the behavior is unwanted and will not be tolerated.


What behaviour? Eliminating indoors? Eliminating while you're around? Eliminating while the lights are on? Eliminating in the dining room? Unless the dog's already been housebroken, and is aware that _eliminating indoors_ is the behaviour you're addressing, rather than any other given stimuli in the environment, a "No!" is going to do nothing but scare the pup. To you, and to any human, it's obvious what you're correcting, but to a dog it's not. You know all those people who complain that their puppies run off to corners of the house to poop or pee when no one's looking? This is why.


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> I would scream at them like they are the worst dog in the world while "roughly" picking them up and bringing them outside. Once outside don't let them do ANYTHING until they at least attempt to finish the job they started. When and if they go..praise them like you love them unlike anything else in this world and give them a favorite treat.



Hey here is an interesting thread about not being rough with your dog. And it's by you  of all people.

http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/42040-why-you-should-never.html


----------



## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

All of my puppies stayed either with me or in a crate or expen. That pretty much ensured that we wouldn't have many accidents.

However when we *did* have an accident, I would say "ah ah" both cheerfully and mixed with a tad bit of annoyance (mostly at me!) and whisk the puppy outside. *I* am the one who is yelling at myself, for not watching the puppy more carefully, etc.

If I couldn't reach the puppy I would clap my hands or do something to distract them, and then whisk them away outside.

All of mine caught on fast, and there was never any negative stress in the house.

However, when my teenage male tries to lift his leg in the house, he *will* get verbally corrected. It only happened twice and he's never done the deed since.

There's need to yell at puppies. They don't know any better yet.

I would suggest that you crate them seperately, I had a terrible time trying to teach two littermates (brothers) not to potty in their crate at night, and the problem got much better when I seperated the two.

I will say that my bitches have tended to be more work. My worst two were Lacey and Dogstar's Kaylee (who used to be mine) they were both bad about sneaking around and holding some back to use in the house after they got back inside.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Hey here is an interesting thread about not being rough with your dog. And it's by you  of all people.
> 
> http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/42040-why-you-should-never.html


I stand by my words there. Never hit your dog or cause it injury. That does not mean that sometimes you don't have to step up the punishment to the point of handling the dog "firmly and even roughly" when your verbal commands are being intentionally ignored by a very stubborn dog who is testing it's limits with you.



rosemaryninja said:


> What behaviour? Eliminating indoors? Eliminating while you're around? Eliminating while the lights are on? Eliminating in the dining room? Unless the dog's already been housebroken, and is aware that _eliminating indoors_ is the behaviour you're addressing, rather than any other given stimuli in the environment, a "No!" is going to do nothing but scare the pup. To you, and to any human, it's obvious what you're correcting, but to a dog it's not. You know all those people who complain that their puppies run off to corners of the house to poop or pee when no one's looking? This is why.


The stern verbal praise must be accompanied by immediately taking the dog outside to finish it's business and when it does so, giving it lots of praise. 

Even a stubborn and not so bright dog will soon realize that there's a place to crap and a place not to crap.


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> I stand by my words there. Never hit your dog or cause it injury. That does not mean that sometimes you don't have to step up the punishment to the point of handling the dog "firmly and even roughly" when your verbal commands are being intentionally ignored by a very stubborn dog who is testing it's limits with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, but there isn't a reason to yell or treat a dog roughly. And no your dog is not "different" from other dogs. Have you considered more advanced ways to train than the "rough" method.

Why does your dog ignore you? Maybe because you yell at it? If you want your dogs attention keep upping the reward, you can get any dog's attention with a nice juicy steak if that's what it takes in the beginning.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Why does your dog ignore you? Maybe because you yell at it?


Because she is more interested in lunging at the person walking towards them and if she ignores me and jumps towards the person she gets rewarded by whatever reaction she gets from the person she is lunging towards.


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> Because she is more interested in lunging at the person walking towards them and if she ignores me and jumps towards the person she gets rewarded by whatever reaction she gets from the person she is lunging towards.


Why don't you make yourself more interesting then? It's really that simple.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Why don't you make yourself more interesting then? It's really that simple.


I'm not going to take my pants off and dance the jig, if that's what you're suggesting. I mean, I might, but not until spring. It's like 20 degrees outside right now.


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> I'm not going to take my pants off and dance the jig, if that's what you're suggesting. I mean, I might, but not until spring. It's like 20 degrees outside right now.


Aside from lunging at other dogs and cat poop what does your dog like? Is there a favorite treat? Is he highly food motivated?


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

When my puppy has thought about piddling on the floor (he's never actually attempted pooping!), I perform a fairly sharp "UhAh!" which stops him in his tracks, to which then I can quickly scoop him up, while calmly saying "Outside" and once out there, I then give him his potty cue "go potty". He's not afraid of me at all, but the noise DOES stop the action, so I can get him outside where he can do it in the right place.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Aside from lunging at other dogs and cat poop what does your dog like? Is there a favorite treat? Is he highly food motivated?


Yes, my dog is highly food and treat motivated, she will go for just about anything.


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> Yes, my dog is highly food and treat motivated, she will go for just about anything.


Get her favorite treat and always bring that with you when you go out. That should get her attention when she lunges for whatever she's after. 

Also, one thing I did when I was training my dog to walk was give her a treat every 10 steps or so, this way she was looking at me the whole time. This is how you become interesting to your dog.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Get her favorite treat and always bring that with you when you go out. That should get her attention when she lunges for whatever she's after.


I will try that.


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

wizer said:


> Yes, my dog is highly food and treat motivated, she will go for just about anything.



Then use this to your advantage when teaching her something new instead of using rough methods to get her to stop unwanted behaviors ...If you are having issues with pottying in the house, can you get a 'pee post'? this way she will be more 'scent motivated' to GO outdoors...some dogs just need more motivation to go outdoors, because everything else is so inviting. When she does come back inside, and has not gone potty, crate her for you own sanity...doesn't matter how old she is. Or keep her on a lead next to you. The more you yell at, or harshly grab a dog, the more they will simply evade you.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Love's_Sophie said:


> Then use this to your advantage when teaching her something new instead of using rough methods to get her to stop unwanted behaviors ...If you are having issues with pottying in the house, can you get a 'pee post'? this way she will be more 'scent motivated' to GO outdoors...some dogs just need more motivation to go outdoors, because everything else is so inviting. When she does come back inside, and has not gone potty, crate her for you own sanity...doesn't matter how old she is. Or keep her on a lead next to you. The more you yell at, or harshly grab a dog, the more they will simply evade you.


Thanks for the suggestions, but let me clarify.

Potty training- she is 99% housebroken. I did away with the crate 2 weeks ago, one day she was home for 11.5 hours with no accidents. She slipped up once, 3 days ago, probably due to her snatching an egg sandwich off the counter and it basically exploding 24 hours later. That was the only accident she has had in months, so I put her back in the crate for a few weeks just for "safety". 

The cat crap incident and picking up stuff when we go out..that was more of a one time thing, again 99% of the time she drops what's in her mouth when I issue the "drop it" command. 

Her only persistent problem is lunging after strangers because she just loves to interact with people..and running after other dogs and squirrels when on the leash even if it gives her a neck snap that twists her completely around in a circle. She seems almost immune to my attempts to break this behavior.


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Okay, now that the potty issue is clarified

What have you tried to do, regarding her lunging behavior? I don't want to give suggestions, if you have already tried some of them.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

> Even a stubborn and not so bright dog will soon realize that there's a place to crap and a place not to crap.


Maybe, but not as soon as a dog whose environment and schedule has been managed in such a way to set him up for success. And in a much more traumatising way than a dog who hasn't been repetitively screamed at during its formative months. 

Regarding your dog's lunging... what have you tried? Leash-reactivity is best solved through slow desensitization.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Love's_Sophie said:


> Okay, now that the potty issue is clarified
> 
> What have you tried to do, regarding her lunging behavior? I don't want to give suggestions, if you have already tried some of them.


When she lunges I say "No!" and pull the slack out of the leash. If she doesn't stop pulling at the end of the tight leash (which is typical) I then pull in all the slack, reducing my distance and the length of the leash to about a foot and I get in her face and yell "NO!". Then I loosen up the slack and if she proceeds to walk along normally it's business as usual, but if she continues towards the person or thing then I repeat the procedure. It never takes more than 3x.


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Okay, so you said she's food motivated, so be prepared to start bringing lots of her favorite treats with you. 

Start out on your walk, and when you notice she is getting keyed up, dig out a treat, step infront of her motion, and encourage you to follow you...turn her away from her distraction, in the beginning. Have her sit in front of you, and ask her to 'leave it' and "watch me", while treating her as she keeps her focus on you. Do this until the distraction passes by, or is out of sight (if it was up ahead, going the other way).

The reason she continues to pull, is that there really is no real 'distraction' to keep her from pulling, and she is still getting gratification from being focused on THE distraction; by pulling on her, and simply telling her "NO", you are really not changing her focus. Use treats, to regain her focus and keep it on you. Practice the "watch me" exercise at home too...that way when you are out on the trail, she will understand that it means to pay attention to you, no matter where she is at. 

If you can, I would try a Halti, or other control head collar; that way you can better turn her face into you...and when she does manage to pull, she will turn herself around by the pressure applied on her face. When she does turn around, praise her, and dig out the treats, encouraging her to stay focused on you, until the distraction is passed. 

Only when she is consistant in watching you while someone walks by, will you move on to having them approach you; and they won't touch, or pet her, nor will you allow the strange dog to touch her, or get too near; not at first...bring her up in steps, so that she fully understands that she HAS to focus on you no matter how excited she is.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

My dog had a lunging problem.....for different reasons but lunging nonetheless.....

I replaced the behavior with one that both she and I preferred.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Love's_Sophie said:


> Start out on your walk, and when you notice she is getting keyed up, dig out a treat, step infront of her motion, and encourage you to follow you...turn her away from her distraction, in the beginning. Have her sit in front of you, and ask her to 'leave it' and "watch me", while treating her as she keeps her focus on you. Do this until the distraction passes by, or is out of sight (if it was up ahead, going the other way)
> 
> If you can, I would try a Halti, or other control head collar; that way you can better turn her face into you...and when she does manage to pull, she will turn herself around by the pressure applied on her face. When she does turn around, praise her, and dig out the treats, encouraging her to stay focused on you, until the distraction is passed.


Ok. I will try your ideas. They seem like they will work for me, especially stepping in between her and the stranger rather than being behind her and pullng.

I do have the Gentle Leader harness..I originally got it because she would pull all the time while walking on leash but we have since trained that behavior away. Maybe I will go back to using it along with the suggestions you gave here. 

Thanks


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I highly recommend the books "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt (www.controlunleashed.net) and "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion for more help with your dog's focus issues, wizer.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> I highly recommend the books "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt (www.controlunleashed.net) and "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion for more help with your dog's focus issues, wizer.


Looks good.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Love's_Sophie said:


> The reason she continues to pull, is that there really is no real 'distraction' to keep her from pulling, and she is still getting gratification from being focused on THE distraction; by pulling on her, and simply telling her "NO", you are really not changing her focus. Use treats, to regain her focus and keep it on you. Practice the "watch me" exercise at home too...that way when you are out on the trail, she will understand that it means to pay attention to you, no matter where she is at.


I tried your advice last night on our walk and it worked perfectly. I got in front of her, offered her a treat, and she took it and totally forgot about the stranger.


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> I tried your advice last night on our walk and it worked perfectly. I got in front of her, offered her a treat, and she took it and totally forgot about the stranger.


Good job! It's really just that easy.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Good job! It's really just that easy.


I guess my question is, do I keep doing this?

It seems like the first time we encounter a stranger and I've got no treats she's just going to try to get around me and go after him or her.


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> I guess my question is, do I keep doing this?
> 
> It seems like the first time we encounter a stranger and I've got no treats she's just going to try to get around me and go after him or her.


You have to keep a supply with you for now. You can start combining it was a key word that controls her in these situations. It can be whatever you want to use. You can say "calm" as she ignores the person and comes back to you for the treat. In time "calm" will mean if I pay attention to master I get a treat. 

When she starts making the association with the word, meaning if she starts to pay attention to you when you say the word, then you can start phasing out the treat. Maybe reward her every other time then every three times etc. I usually don't phase it out all together but the frequency will decrease to many repetitions before they get rewarded. This part will take some time so just keep at it and don't phase out the treat too quickly.

In time she'll just be so used to doing it you won't need to reward much.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> You have to keep a supply with you for now. You can start combining it was a key word that controls her in these situations. It can be whatever you want to use. You can say "calm" as she ignores the person and comes back to you for the treat. In time "calm" will mean if I pay attention to master I get a treat.


I am already using "here" which means pay attention to me, not whatever else you are doing, so I guess I will continue with that since she already knows it from other situations. 

In fact I wonder why doing that didn't occur to me until you guys suggested it.


----------



## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

wizer said:


> I am already using "here" which means pay attention to me, not whatever else you are doing, so I guess I will continue with that since she already knows it from other situations.
> 
> In fact I wonder why doing that didn't occur to me until you guys suggested it.


Rule #1 It is your dogs responsiblity to pay attention to you.
Rule #2 It is not your job to remind him what his job is.
Rule #3 If you have to constantly do that, the training method is faulty.

Point is....you want to teach your dog to look at you instead of the distraction. You reward him for making eye contact with you in the face of distractions....WITHOUT a verbal command. If there is no eye contact (he makes the decision to ignore you and focus on the distraction), do a quick about turn (away from the distraction) and immediately praise when he makes eye contact with you.
You're teaching the dog to pay attention at all times....not just on your command only.
There are some trainers that go overboard on this training and give harsh corrections for even glancing at a distraction. That's not necessary to the training.


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Tooneydog:

Rule #1 It is your dogs responsiblity to pay attention to you.
Rule #2 It is not your job to remind him what his job is.
Rule #3 If you have to constantly do that, the training method is faulty.

EXACTLY!!! When my Pood started out in Agility, I wasn't sold on clicker training. I would correct with a collar pop or verbal command a dog who was getting overly excited to meet other animals or people. Pood would usually stop, but he wasn't exactly thrilled about it. Once I got to see what dogs with true handler focus looked like that wasn't achieved through punishing them for wanting to look elsewhere, I could see my method was failing miserably. I started clicking and rewarding a glance in my direction, then a bit more focus in less distracting areas, then upped the duration, distractions and distance individually bit by bit. No punishment. No cue. I even avoided luring except when it wasn't possible to work with the dog within his threshold for getting overly excited. Now when we're working (and it doesn't matter if it's around Agility equipment or not) Pood can be tackled by rude dogs, be near other critters or picked up by other people without losing focus on me.


----------



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> You're teaching the dog to pay attention at all times....not just on your command only.
> There are some trainers that go overboard on this training and give harsh corrections for even glancing at a distraction. That's not necessary to the training.



Yes, and the thing is my dog is VERY attentive to me..not that I am taking credit for that, it's just how she's always been. There's a dog park near here and another dog owner even commented on how even when off leash my dog is always watching for me...so it's fairly easy to build on that.


----------

