# What agility venue to you prefer?



## pawsaddict

I'm in Canada, and in my area, NADAC and AAC are the only two venues really available to me (as far as I know). Looking into it, it seems like there are a lot of differences between the venues (NADAC, AAC, USDAA, CPE, AKC, etc.). 

So I'm just curious what venue(s) folks prefer (even if they are not in Canada) and why?


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## Kyllobernese

I have just competed in AAC so can't really say too much about the others as none of them are near me. There is a NADAC club that puts on trials but it is on Vancouver Island so a little too expensive with having to take the ferry over and back especially with a trailer so then you have to stay at a Motel so I have never ventured over there. I think I am going to look into the CKC Agility and Rally but I think their entry fees are pretty high in comparison with AAC. More interested in the CKC for Rally as CARO does not hold very many trials around here.


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## CptJack

I know nothing about AAC. 

I'm a NADAC person - part of this is availability limitations (it's NADAC or AKC, with NADAC hosting more trials) and some of it's a matter of who I want to give my money to. My 'home' club only hosts NADAC trials, so that's another reason I live over there. 

There are some big differences. A lot of people really don't like NADAC because of them (and for other reasons). A lot of people love it. A lot of people do look down on it to some degree or another and treat it as 'practice' for 'serious agility', which bugs me more than people who just hate it (not using it as practice - it's the condescending that bugs me). 

There's no table, chute, teeter, or tire. There are hoops and barrels and gates (I have never seen a gate on a course - so this may be outdated). Their highest jump height is 20". Dogs who are over 9 must be run skilled veteran and 8" lower than their measured jump height. Skilled dogs run 4" lower, and don't need measured. Dogs who jump 20" don't get measured, either. There is no tugging or rewarding within 10 feet of the ring, but you CAN run with a toy or tug in your pocket as long as you don't indicate to the dog that you have it. Dogs must run naked (without a collar). If you take even a single step back toward your dog at the start line to reset them (even if the dog hasn't crossed the line) you are eliminated. They don't call refusals. There are a lot of, sometimes very, very hard discriminations (two straight tunnels side by side) even at lower levels. There are no treadles or backsides (dog always takes the obstacle from the direction the dog is facing). The course times can be tight in upper levels and some of the games. They've got neat games (their jumpers course is only jumps, their tunnelers are all tunnels, then there's weavers (3 sets of weaves), chances (distance), and touch 'n go (no weaves) and hoopers and gaters and barrelers). 

Oh, and they allow 'V-Runs' where you video tape your run from the start-line to leaving the field and will award Qs and points based on those.

The biggest issue with it -for me- is actually just that there is one woman in charge - which means she can and does change the rules pretty well when she wants to. I haven't seen the random changes, but because it doesn't go by committee things can change fast when they change. 

But I really like NADAC and I don't see me switching over unless something *really* extreme happens. I just... like the venue and I like the games and I adore my club.


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## pawsaddict

AAC, from someone who knows very little about all the different venues, seems pretty similar to USDAA. AAC has the the chute, teeter, tire, and the table, I believe. 

One of the main things that seems to set NADAC apart from the other venues to me is the distance work. On one hand, I think it's really amazing and must require a lot of handling skills. But on the other hand, I really like running along side Nova. I don't know why, but I feel more...involved? that way.

The club I am starting with is affiliated with AAC, so I assume that, when we're ready, that's where we will start. But I'm just so curious about the all other organizations and what sets them apart from everyone else....if there are pros/cons to starting with one venue vs. another when you're a newbie. Are certain venues friendlier than others? Etc.


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## Laurelin

USDAA by far but I intend to do AKC/USDAA.

I've done USDAA, NADAC, UKC, and TDAA. Been to AKC trials but have not trialled there. 

The short version:

NADAC is too odd. They have obstacles everything else doesn't have and there was a period where they were changing rules constantly which caused it to go out of favor here. They also omit a lot of AKC/USDAA obstacles and have a lot of distance stuff. Faster course times (USDAA is close though). It's fun but there's no opportunity here to really get into it and I prefer USDAA. 

UKC: Also weird obstacles that no one else has. Beginner UKC is super easy and course times in UKC are very slow.

TDAA: Good for elderly tiny dogs. Not good for larger or faster dogs and also less fun imo because I can't run in cramped courses. Slow course times. It's kind of agility lite imo. But it is nice for the dogs it targets as I feel they are left out in a lot of other venues.

AKC: To me is very 'standard' agility. Weaves in everything (6 at novice). Milder course times than USDAA so are pretty inclusive. My big downside here is how hard it is to get into AKC trials and how long the days are for just a couple runs. They are loooong days. They have introduced games lately so there's more options now than just jumpers and standard.

USDAA: To me it is the most fun. It has more technical courses than other venues, which I like. They are big courses and all obstacles. 12 weaves from the get go in standard. They have games (gamblers, snookers) and tournaments. It to me feels the most competitive but also seems to be less formal in some ways than AKC? I dunno. I enjoy the courses and the people. Downsides: Faster course times for slower dogs. Also less shows here than AKC. I also think pairs is a HUGE downside but that could be me and my dog. I hate that you actually have to play pairs to get the overall agility titles.


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## Laurelin

Some other differences 

Usdaa has higher jump heights, smaller contact zones, longer chute than other venues.


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## LoMD13

I compete in USDAA and NADAC and have conpeted in TDAA once. I started out in USDAA, our classes are geared towards USDAA, and out home training center has USDAA matches, so that's our "main" organization. 

I really like the technical-nature of the courses, and also how the courses in each level are pretty different- with the more advanced levels having more advanced courses. The only thing I don't like about it is the jump heights are absolutely ridiculous- there's no reason for my dog to be jumping twice her height. 

We're new to NADAAC, but I love it so far. We DID start trialing to "practice" for USDAA and I don't mean that condescending in the slightest! Just that we needed more consistent trial experiences, especially in different places, and I had heard it was a great place to get it. I went into it with very little expectations- just to get happy-time ring experience in a new setting. I don't like the tough discrimination at the novice level, or how some of the levels arn't even changed at all except for time. The distance thing isn't my cup of tea, but it's very neat to watch other people do it. I do love the relaxed atmosphere and the flowy courses. 

TDAA was fun, but it seemed a little too easy. We Q'd and took first place in every single run we did, there just didn't seem to be enough of a challenge there. I love the idea of the smaller equipment and more compact courses though! We'll probably go again when it moves indoors.


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## LoMD13

Pairs is one of my all-time favorite agility games to play, so I do love that about USDAA!


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## pawsaddict

Just by reading all of the posts, it seems like there is something out there for almost everyone, from older, small dogs to dogs afraid of the teeter, which is really nice.

I like that NADAC allows training in the ring (although you will be eliminated for it, if I understand correctly). I think that's really nice for green dogs (and handlers!).


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## pawsaddict

What is pairs?


Edit: Nevermind, I get it now


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## CptJack

I will also say that while distance becomes necessary in most cases to make time as you go up levels, it's very possible to run with your dog on the course at lower levels. The dogs do tend to get ahead of you, but a lot of that's facilitated by the flow of the courses. So its' not like you *can't* run with them and get it, it's just the dogs sometimes go reallyreallyfast. 

I'm also lazy though and don't much want to run the whole thing with my dog.


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## pawsaddict

Haha, yeah...I may change my opinion on running the whole thing with Nova as we get more experienced.


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## LoMD13

Distance is a nice thing to have in the toolbox, but it seems to be used a lot more sparingly in USDAA than in NADAC. I don't think that level of distance work is nessecary to compete at high levels. That said, it's just different training styles, neither is inheritantly right or wrong.


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## CptJack

I think some of it's that the courses are made for more distance and speed in NADAC and are less technical so you don't need to be on top of the dog to do a wrap or a backside or whatever. You don't HAVE to have much distance at all, but a lot of the courses sort of encourage the dogs to drive ahead and you can fall behind an obstacle or two or three or more pretty fast. The stuff you see from champs and with bonus boxes and the super elite chances though is not what you see in regular trials.

And I do agree that neither is right or wrong. It's just finding what's fun for you.


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## kadylady

My competition experience is in AKC and CPE both of which my club hosts. We also host UKC trials but I have never trained or competed for UKC. 

AKC and CPE are both very popular in my area. You could almost trial in AKC every weekend without leaving the state. CPE there are on average 1-2 trials per month in that same area. So definitely availability and location plays a big factor. USDAA seems to be gaining a little bit of popularity in this area, slowly from what I can tell, but it's there every now and then. 

UKC agility is dying. The people in our club that still do UKC are having a harder time finding trials and are having to drive further for them. And UKC has all the weird obstacles that no one else has. Even though my club hosts and member do train in it, I chose not to just because I was already busy enough with learning the standard obstacles, much less a bunch more stuff. I was also discouraged from it just because of the difficulty of finding trials. 

I chose to start in CPE, I was strongly encouraged to do so by my instructor. CPE Level 1 does not have weaves or a teeter. CPE courses are also known for being more flowing and shorter. They have lots of options for dogs to jump lower heights and/or get more course time. CPE is also known for their games classes. There is Standard and Jumpers (no weaves), then there is Wildcard, Colors, Fullhouse, Jackpot and Snooker, all of which are strategy type games. I love the CPE games classes. They are a lot of fun and a great way to be able to work on certain things in the ring by creating your own courses sometimes. The CPE crowd is a very fun and welcoming crowd, the trials feel much less competive than an AKC environment. Oh, CPE also doesn't fault refusals and dropped bars are only a fault not an NQ.

Laurelin already touched on some of the AKC stuff...in comparison to CPE the courses are longer, there are weaves in every class at every level (optional in FAST), there are more side changes and there is starting to be a little bit more "international type stuff" (ie backsides). The environment definitely feels more competitive. 

For Zoey and I right now, 70% CPE 30% AKC is probably our ideal mix. CPE is definitely a confidence boost for us because the courses are not as hard as AKC excellect level (which is where we are at now) and they allow us to work on building speed in the ring (more open lines). The environment is also less stressful for both of us at the moment. And CPE doesn't have weaves in every class so as we work through our weave issues its nice to be able to go into the ring and not have to shove them at her every single time. I do enjoy the challenges of AKC though and probably where I will end up primarily eventually, when we are ready. Overall I really enjoy aspects of both venues and will probably always do a little of both. Skye will definitely start in CPE just because it's such a great place to start young dogs.


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## CptJack

> how some of the levels arn't even changed at all except for time.


Oh. I will so cop to this being a peeve. I would really appreciate the difficulty level changing with levels, honestly. And it's true for most of the games. Chances is harder as you go, but Tunnlers and T 'n' G are exactly the same except for time, and weaves the only thing changes is number of weaves in those three sets. Cut the novices some slack here, would you? 

As an aside, the discriminations are growing on me, but I think it's because I've always had them so they've become a 'fun' challenge for me. Sort of my version of teeter issues or training, I guess.


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## Laurelin

LoMD13 said:


> Pairs is one of my all-time favorite agility games to play, so I do love that about USDAA!


Pairs would have been fine with Summer. Gonna suck with Hank if it ever happens. He just loses his mind around other running dogs. Maybe one day he'll have enough focus....

I actually don't mind USDAA jump heights in general EXCEPT small dogs. I do hear big (like bigger than a BC) sized dogs complain too. But not sure the specifics. I think it's fair for Hank sized dogs in general. There's 12", 14", 16", and 18". All dogs jump above their withers height vs AKC where half the dog in the class jump below the withers and half above. In that way it seems fairer. I know in the past there was a big stink about shelties because before they added 18" jump heights the shelties just barely over 16" were jumping 22" which is ridiculous. But they NEED to fix the small dog heights. It's not fair that there is no way for a toy sized dog to really get a championship. they essentially have to run performance... you see big name papillon people doing performance with their big name dogs from AKC because it's a bit crazy to have a 5 lb dog jump 12". Annoys me because it seems like small dogs are often/always a footnote in agility. 

TDAA difficulty is dependent on the judge. I have had some HARD TDAA courses a superior/games 3. Level 1 is ridiculously easy though. I do know some NADAC people that do TDAA with really fast dogs and they NQ a lot because their dogs are off course so much (it's so tight). Personally I don't think the venue is good for fast dogs. It is meant for really toy sized and slow to moderately paced dogs. I do like that TDAA has a million games. I have yet to have a repeat game. Bad news is you have to learn rules every trial. 

I would do CPE but there is none here. I did enjoy NADAC a lot but it's not practical in this area at all. My club is a former NADAC club then did UKI and settled on USDAA from what I understand.


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## MrsBoats

Currently, I'm running AKC and USDAA agility with Ocean. I prefer USDAA because the courses are challenging and fun. The courses really make you think as a handler. USDAA people are so very cool and nice...they truly want everyone to do well and enjoy themselves. It's like getting together for a big party and you run dog agility. Two years ago, they dropped the performance height for the big dogs from 22" (Ocean would have to jump 26" in Championships and that's just not happening) to 20" and that's what his preferred height is in AKC. I also like that they have their tournament classes which I'm going to start playing in more once we get out of starters. The games classes like Gamblers, Snooker, and Pairs are a lot of fun too. 

AKC is a venue I will always do because those titles mean stuff for the Rottweiler Clubs I belong to and to Ocean's breeder for production points. There are a ton of AKC (and USDAA) agility events in New England and Rhode Island...so if it's within an hour of my house, I'll be running there. LOL After spending more time in USDAA, AKC seems very doable now...the courses are less technical and the times are more generous. I will say that AKC seems harder for a powerful, fast, large dog. People say that AKC rewards the slower, more controlled dogs...and I think I agree with that. To me, USDAA seems much more suited for drivey, fast dogs. 

I don't run NADAC any more. I ran a lot of NADAC with Lars. NADAC's courses are all about flow and speed which Lars did pretty well with. They aren't as technical as AKC and USDAA but they have their challenges like tunnel discriminations with contact equipment and distance work. There are a couple of reasons I don't play NADAC anymore. 1) No tugging in the ring and within 10' outside the ring. Tugging after a run is Ocean's reward. He runs to the chair, grabs his leash and brings it to me to clip it on him. We tug our way out of the ring. Tugging is much more valuable to him than food rewards. This is perfectly fine and legal in USDAA and AKC. I would be in so much trouble for that in NADAC. I can't train him to only tug in 2 venues and not NADAC. 2) They change rules and obstacles often. After the new rule about running around barrels and gates, I wasn't sold on that if you compete in other venues. I don't want to teach my dog to refuse an obstacle with the barrels and the gates. I saw a lot of NADAC people struggle in AKC with the panel jumps and refusals because their dogs kept running around the jump...because they looked like the gates they run around in NADAC. 3) NADAC agility is all about the dog running in full extension the entire run. That's why Lars ran NADAC...because he refused to collect his stride on the course. But the more I ran NADAC with him, running in full extension all the time became a learned habit. He learned that every time you step foot into an agility ring, you run like a bat out of hell. So, at this stage of my agility career, I can move on from NADAC with Ocean. When he's older and retired from AKC, I may go back to it. But USDAA has a veterans class for old dogs too where he would have to jump 16" and that might be where we play instead. 

There is some UKI in New England which I will run with Ocean at some point. The course maps I've seen look pretty wicked and I don't know if we have the skill sets yet to do anything but NQ there. LOL Maybe in a couple of more years when O and I are a solid agility team, we'll give it a go. 

I haven't tried CPE even though there's a decent amount of it offered here. I figure that I'm busy enough with USDAA and AKC...and not to mention there's only so much money to go around for trials.


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## kadylady

I forgot UKI, we have a couple of those popping up every now and then in our area...but not many. USDAA sounds fun. I know my instructor has done both USDAA and UKI a couple times and she likes both venues. But you have to travel a lot further to trial often in those. And yeah, it's plenty enough to juggle entries and schedules for 2 venues as it is!

Did a quick look and here's what is offered in terms of in-state trials for the remainder of the year (22 weekends remaining this year). (In state for me means within 1.5 hours drive...perk of living in the middle of the LP  ) 

20 AKC 
15 CPE
3 USDAA
3 UKI 
3 NADAC


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

kadylady said:


> My competition experience is in AKC and CPE both of which my club hosts. We also host UKC trials but I have never trained or competed for UKC.
> 
> AKC and CPE are both very popular in my area. You could almost trial in AKC every weekend without leaving the state. CPE there are on average 1-2 trials per month in that same area. So definitely availability and location plays a big factor. USDAA seems to be gaining a little bit of popularity in this area, slowly from what I can tell, but it's there every now and then.
> 
> UKC agility is dying. The people in our club that still do UKC are having a harder time finding trials and are having to drive further for them. And UKC has all the weird obstacles that no one else has. Even though my club hosts and member do train in it, I chose not to just because I was already busy enough with learning the standard obstacles, much less a bunch more stuff. I was also discouraged from it just because of the difficulty of finding trials.
> 
> I chose to start in CPE, I was strongly encouraged to do so by my instructor. CPE Level 1 does not have weaves or a teeter. CPE courses are also known for being more flowing and shorter. They have lots of options for dogs to jump lower heights and/or get more course time. CPE is also known for their games classes. There is Standard and Jumpers (no weaves), then there is Wildcard, Colors, Fullhouse, Jackpot and Snooker, all of which are strategy type games. I love the CPE games classes. They are a lot of fun and a great way to be able to work on certain things in the ring by creating your own courses sometimes. The CPE crowd is a very fun and welcoming crowd, the trials feel much less competive than an AKC environment. Oh, CPE also doesn't fault refusals and dropped bars are only a fault not an NQ.
> 
> Laurelin already touched on some of the AKC stuff...in comparison to CPE the courses are longer, there are weaves in every class at every level (optional in FAST), there are more side changes and there is starting to be a little bit more "international type stuff" (ie backsides). The environment definitely feels more competitive.
> 
> For Zoey and I right now, 70% CPE 30% AKC is probably our ideal mix. CPE is definitely a confidence boost for us because the courses are not as hard as AKC excellect level (which is where we are at now) and they allow us to work on building speed in the ring (more open lines). The environment is also less stressful for both of us at the moment. And CPE doesn't have weaves in every class so as we work through our weave issues its nice to be able to go into the ring and not have to shove them at her every single time. I do enjoy the challenges of AKC though and probably where I will end up primarily eventually, when we are ready. Overall I really enjoy aspects of both venues and will probably always do a little of both. Skye will definitely start in CPE just because it's such a great place to start young dogs.


I do not trial yet (starting this fall) but this is pretty much exactly what I would be saying. Probably because I am only a state away. 

I really liked the CPE practice trial I went to. I've been told over and over it is the best place to start because it is more relaxed. I've been told AKC is more competitive and has more "bad apples" so to speak. AKC is the most available, but CPE isn't too bad either. I can find plenty of trials within a 3 hour drive. At first I thought the CPE games were lame, but then I saw how fun and useful they can be.. except for Snooker! I can't say I've seen any USDAA or NADAC, nor do I know much about them.


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## dogsule

I do AKC, because that is what is offered here. I know one of the trainers ran International something or other once but I don't know where she went for that. I don't think anything else is offered in our area other than AKC. The place I trial at (an hour from me) holds trials once or twice a month year round which is enough for me. If I would want to go another hour or two beyond that I could probably trial almost every weekend but I don't want to do that. I need my home time too. Right now I only trial one day of the weekend when there are trials that are an hour from me, I couldn't imagine doing 3 days in a row but I did do 2 days twice now. I do this for fun, I love it and Belle loves it but it certainly isn't my life. LOL!


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