# Ceasr Milan



## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

Any 'Dog Whisperer" watchers? I watch the show religously! I think he is great and I use his Walk Technique and his methods work for me. 

I know I miss spelled his name wrong! Typo!


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

i have just recently started watching the show, i find he's alright, pretty good at what he does, but the owners annoy me for the most part... not sure why, perhaps because they talk as though they know EVERYTHING now that Caesar has come???!?!?!?!?! 
Too much repeating, over and over, just kinda irritates me a tad...


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

Some of the stuff he says makes sense. But why the warning "don't try this at home"? What's the point of the show if people can't use the techniques?


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Kerry, Haven't you noticed that Ceasar gets biten quit often. He also has his own dogs that are trained not to be agressive with other dogs so he has to make a disclaimer to avoid law suits. He is extremely attuned to body language of dogs and still gets bit. 

Can't you see the headlines: " May sues Ceasar for $30,000.00 because dog bites him" .. This would open a pandora's box...


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

I've never seen his show, and can't say I'll be watching it anytime soon. I have read his book "Cesars Way", and there were parts I fully agreed with, found to be very informative, and a great eye opener for people who can't understand why their dogs act a certian "bad" way. Usually down to the owner fulfilling their own needs ahead of their dog. He makes many good points. But there were other parts I didn't agree with, and thought it was way off base. I'd still suggest the book for dog owners to read though, well worth it, even if there are some parts that I didn't like.

He's never claimed to be a "trainer" of dogs, but a "rehabilitator". It's the people he trains...LOL. Whether anyone classifies him as a trainer or not, like any trainer, I don't usually agree fully with their methods. I take bits and pieces of what I can use, from all kinds of trainers, or would use and discard the rest. So in my eyes being 100% Cesar is as bad as being 100% against Cesar. You have to be wiling to try and be open to new and different concepts.

From what I've heard about his show, is the reason I won't watch it. Regardless of the "don't try this at home" bit, I'm sure many people will give it a try, to save on cash of getting a trainer or behaviorist in. And from what I hear, some of these situations can be quite dangerous. At least potentially dangerous.
I also heard of a show (and I think he mentioned this in his book also) with a Great Dane that fell on a slick kitchen floor, that was then terrified of walking on the flooring. I can't say I was happy about how he handled it. Basically "masked" the fear, rather than working through it.


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## Six (Jan 24, 2007)

I use some of his techniques. I do think that it is insane that he brings along that INTACT MALE PBT/ST to help show other dogs how to behave normally. That is just an accident waiting to happen. He also had him off leash walking in a neighborhood. There is no way to know if there are loose dogs in the neighborhood and how they will react. CRAZY


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## Samantha (Jan 19, 2007)

I watch it all the time, and when I cant watch it it's recorded on TVO.
I use it often in my dogs, more so on others, it works wonders. The snap, the sh, works so well. I'm so suprised. But I"ve watched it and read the books, I"m a big fan


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## kozmos (Jan 25, 2007)

There is a book and dvd out by another guy 
, Paul Owens, that is called "the Dog Whisperer" . I just bought it off a site called My Pet Pouch . com I think it is a much nicer and kinder way of training a dog. It is doing great with my little guy! Has any one else ever heard of Paul Owens?


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

Yeah, I do feel like the show repeats itself. Cesar says the same things over and over agian. 

I have to laugh when the owners on his show say that they watch his show but still have dog problems! But I figure cause the owners aren't doing it right. 

I do question some of his techniques. But most of his clients seem to have results and continue to. I know that my neighbors started watching his show and thier dog walks 100% better than before. 

I have heard of Paul Owens but never read any of his stuff. Might have to check him out! I do like Brian Kilcommons. He is known around the US for training shelter dogs and puppies. He has several books out.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

Pat Miller is another like Paul Owens who has a book out called "The Power of Positive Dog Training and is 180 degrees from Cesar Millan. It's like two college professors teaching on the Spanish Inquisition...depends on their background on what you're going to glean from their teaching. I like both books but, take certain things with a grain of salt. I agree 100% with BB about the problem with the Great Dane and the floor. Not my way to help the dog. I wouldn't want someone to lock me in a small bathroom filled with spiders!! I'd find a way out if it was through the ceiling.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I watch the show purely for entertainment (I don't believe it's good for much else lol). What annoys me is that people will watch a few episodes of his show and then think they are now experts because they watched a TV show. >-.-;<

The show has quite a few owners with... really interesting ideas about dog behavior... >;< So it's a good laugh for me... Like the lady with the ACD/Dingo mix... "Well, I gave him the cookie because he wouldn't come!" Brilliant!! >@.o;<


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

I amtually dont watch it that much but I do want to get his book once we get our puppy on sat...... But i do have other books
Like


HOW TO HOUSEBREAK YOUR DOG IN 7 DAYS

by Shirlee kalstone.. hope iit works and some books by a dude names Michael Kelly ..yeah


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## blindeyehalo (Feb 14, 2007)

Well I was going to put this in a new topic, but since this is my first post at this forum I thought I'd just use an existing thread about Cesar Millan.


I've noticed that a lot of people who criticize him say how you can tell by the dog's body language that they are scared of him, stressed out, etc. Then most of the time they recommend Ian Dunbar instead.

So I went and google imaged both behaviorists and saved a few of their pics to compare side by side.

Now I may be mistaken but, personally, I don't see the dogs behaving any differently to either of them.

I would like some opinions on this. Not your opinion on the psychologists/behaviorists/trainers/or whatever you'd like to refer to them as( I've read enough of those to last me a long time), but I would like some on the dogs.

These are the pictures I was comparing:




















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(There are more, but I didn't realize there is a limit to how many images can be in a post so I will post them after this)
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I think because he has been featured on shows like Oprah Winfrey's, he was very much over-sold to people and everyone was expecting some miracle formula from him, only to find out its the same stuff they'd heard before. 

Most of Cesar's success, though, seems to be from his ability to put that information into simple terms that everybody can understand.

A lot of people who push "positive reinforcement only" may think what he does is too hard on the dog, but sometimes you can go too far the other way too.

You really need a good balance of both, discipline and praise; discipline so they know what not to do, and praise so they know what they are supposed to do.

Every dog is different and some need more of one than the other. I've read every single word of Cesar's Way five times and I'm pretty sure this is a concept he understands. And as many people have pointed out, his show is edited and can be deceiving, don't be too quick to judge, and that goes for both sides of the argument.

Cesar is not "God", and not everything he says right, you can't rely on only one person. In order to really know whats going on you need to do your own research. On the other hand, dismissing everything he says entirely is just as ignorant.


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## blindeyehalo (Feb 14, 2007)

more:


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I have one comparison left.


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## blindeyehalo (Feb 14, 2007)

last one:




















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Sorry for multi-posting, but I really wanted to share these.


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## QueenMerry (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree wholeheartedly with Cesar's thing about calm assertive behavior. If you're nervous or anxious, it does transfer to your animals (cats, dogs...even humans). That's not a big secret though. I think part of Cesar's schtick is common sense. The other part is lots of experience in animal behavior...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Cheetah said:


> I watch the show purely for entertainment


There ya go. I do the same thing.

I sometimes watch 'Extreme Makeover Home Edition' but I'm not going to be driving a bulldozer through my house any time soon.

(There is hardly ANYTHING on TV that you'd want to try at home.)

(Eew. Ian Dunbar could use one of those teeth-whitening products.)


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> I watch the show purely for entertainment (I don't believe it's good for much else lol). What annoys me is that people will watch a few episodes of his show and then think they are now experts because they watched a TV show. >-.-;<


I agree - that's probably my worse peeve with the show. We've had people come in and say "Oh we've been watching Cesar all week.. he'll be fine"


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

I am sure his dogs love him and have better OB then 95% of this forum (me included). I am sure lots of people don't like him or his ways. So what? Lots of people will have better dogs because of him. Even if it just keeps people from getting made at there dog because they don't understand it. His main points are good. Wear the dog out (which most dog owners don't do), discipline (again most owner don’t) and then love.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Given a choice of who I want to handle my dog, Ian wins by a land slide. Having met Dr. Dunbar, briefly, and having read some of his study in dog behavior, I'm confident that his approach is far more progressive than that of Cesar. I feel like if I picked up a dog training book from the 60's and early 70's, I'd find the same training techniques as those of Cesar's...he really only gives basic correlations to wolf behavior and wolf pack dynamics and some basics on fulfilling a dog's needs. So what! I'm with most people regarding the show, I'm more interested in the dogs and their problems, not Cesar's techniques. While Cesar was making his way to the states, Dr. Dunbar was studying dog pack behavior...which is subtly different than wolf pack behavior. I believe Dr. Dunbar's conclusions from this study has spawned a humane and logical form of training appropriate for the modern dog and handler. For those of you who haven't researched the work Dr. Dunbar has done, this is merely another opinion...an opinion I'm comfortable with, and Elsa seems to be happy with too. I can't argue with the results, and I qualify that by saying I haven't always perscribed to positive reinforcement methods. I can't debate that Cesar has a 30 minute gift to help people help dogs...his methods work great for TV. However, my belief in Dr. Dunbar's techniques is that it's more applicable to everyone, although it doesn't make for good TV. So those of you hoping for a TV show featuring Dr. Dunbar, don't hold your breath. I'd instead receommend reading a book, attending a seminar, or enrolling your dog in one of his schools.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

I recently moved from cable to Direct TV, and I am now able to watch Cesar on the National Geogpahic Channel which I couldn't get on cable. I have watched about 10 shows already. I had seen some posts on another web site about how " cruel" and "mean" his training methods were, posted by other "trainers" or "trainer wanabees" ... Both my grown daughters and a couple of friends of mine, who all have dogs, would look at me like I was crazy, when I would bring up this issue of " Cesar's cruelty". 

Now I sit in front of my TV , and turn on the first Cesar show and I am waiting for him to get out the whips and the chains and start choking the dogs to death ... Huh?????  Maybe I got the wrong show on, cause he is not doing any of those "mean " things. He is taking dogs that many people would have euthanized long ago , and within an hour or two , is getting them under control. Nothing violent or cruel, just a calm assurance and showing the dog's owner that they can do this too. Many times, it is the dog's permissive owner that is the main problem, so he spends time trying to change the way the owner handles the dog. 

I guess it is just a reminder that you can't believe everything you read ....


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Captbob said:


> I recently moved from teh cable to Direct TV, and I am now able to watch Cesar on the National Geogpahic Channel which I couldn't get on cable. I have watched about 10 shows already. I had seen some posts on another web site about how " cruel" and "mean" his training methods were, posted by other "trainers" or "trainer wanabees" ... Both my grown daughters and a couple of friends of mine, who all have dogs, would look at me like I was crazy, when I would bring up this issue of " Cesar's cruelty".
> 
> Now I sit in front of my TV , and turn on the first Cesar show and I am waiting for him to get out the whips and the chains and start choking the dogs to death ... Huh?????  Maybe I got the wrong show on, cause he is not doing any of those "mean " things. He is taking dogs that many people would have euthanized long ago , and within an hour or two , is getting them under control. Nothing violent or cruel, just a calm assurance and showing the dog's owner that they can do this too. Many times, it is the dog's permissive owner that is the main problem, so he spends time trying to change the way the owner handles the dog.
> 
> I guess it is just a reminder that you can't believe everything you read ....


People here would rather see a mean dog put down then fixed with some harder methods. They would rather just give their dog hugs and treats. Even if it means it take 6 month to get their dog to heel....


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

FranMan said:


> People here would rather see a mean dog put down then fixed with some harder methods. They would rather just give their dog hugs and treats. Even if it means it take 6 month to get their dog to heel....


Really? Which people??


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## ifreakshow (Feb 14, 2007)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/o...104db46c9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

This is a link to a critical New York Times op-ed from last April about Cesar Milan. It's interesting reading, whether you agree with it or not.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

opokki said:


> Really? Which people??


http://www.dogforums.com/posts/2-general-dog-forum/3422-corrections/22993-post10.html


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

I thought your comment might have had something to do with hanging dogs until they pass out.....
That poster also stated that they did'nt believe that hanging the dog would be the _only_ option.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I do think a violently aggressive, dangerous dog should be put to sleep. There are so many good dogs out there being put to sleep in shelters just because there's not enough homes to go around. Yes, a lot of times dogs become aggressive because of their upbringing, but sometimes, they're just bad seeds, like with people. Something's not right in their heads. I don't think there's any way to rehabilitate a Charles Manson, either. I'm all for giving a dog a chance, or several, but I hate to see resources being used to try to fix a bad dog that could be used to save a good dog.


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## blindeyehalo (Feb 14, 2007)

ifreakshow said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/o...104db46c9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
> 
> This is a link to a critical New York Times op-ed from last April about Cesar Milan. It's interesting reading, whether you agree with it or not.



*"Forcefully rolling a big dog on its back was once recommended as a way to establish dominance, but it is now recognized as a good way to get bitten. People are advised not to try it."*


That is VERY true, but as I found out the hard way, using reward only with an aggressive dog can be equally as dangerous >.< 

I got my first dog, a 120 lb. german shepherd, about three years ago from a shelter. At the time he was a very hyper-active and dominating dog, and had some really bad food aggression. I had this book that was all about "reward good behavior, ignore the bad" and I read its advice on dealing with possessiveness towards food; it said to start putting treats in his bowl when he eats so he associates the hand with a good thing. I tried it and he ended up biting me  

I kept on with the positive reinforcement and he only got worse, eventually attacking my mom and then a neighborhood kid. Not bad enough to do any real damage, but he did break skin. 

After discovering Cesar though, I realized he lacked any "rules, boundaries, and limitations". When I ignored him while he was doing something undesirable, the behavior would just escalate. 

Now, I don't follow his advice down to the letter, but I have gotten a lot of good information out of what he says along with the people who disagree with him. I take what I've learned from both and use it in a way that is best for *my dog*. 

These days I have a very mellow, well-behaved dog. I love him to death and he doesn't hate me for showing him leadership, he still shows me a lot of love back.

But like I said, every dog is different and has different needs. Cesar's advice may not work for all dogs just like that one book didn't work for mine. You just have to find what works best for you. 

http://dogphoria.com/wim/web/2ce81af8-2d6c-4c20-9b96-5e58b92259e2.jpg

^ My dog. =]


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

opokki said:


> I thought your comment might have had something to do with hanging dogs until they pass out.....
> That poster also stated that they did'nt believe that hanging the dog would be the _only_ option.



It is really putting the dog in the sleeper. Like you see on tv in the WWF. You just can't do it to a dog that wants to rip your face off unless use a rope from afar. It doesn't hurt the dog. The poster didn't believe it was the only way, true. They also _couldn't _ say what other way to fix the problem except putting the dog down......


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

FranMan said:


> It is really putting the dog in the sleeper. Like you see on tv in the WWF. You just can't do it to a dog that wants to rip your face off unless use a rope from afar. It doesn't hurt the dog. The poster didn't believe it was the only way, true. They also _couldn't _ say what other way to fix the problem except putting the dog down......


You hang the dog until it passes out and it doesn't hurt the dog ??? You aren't serious are you?


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

I can not stand CM!!!! EVERYTHING to him is a dominance issue which is ludicrous. A dog being scared of a toaster was to him, a dominance issue!!! And Alpha rolling is not normal dog behaviour so why should humans do it??? I''m not 100% positive, if a dog messes up I do give a correction for it but I dont terrorize him by rolling him! The more I watch him the more he irritates me LOL


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## Cassiepeia (Jan 25, 2007)

Me too OC. It distresses me to watch him and listen to his very 'black & white' attitude. He needs to go back to basics and do some serious study time, looking at all different training techniques, talking to trainers who use other methods and perhaps even do a course in dog behaviour. Because, although I am by no means an expert (just a lowly obsessed dog person), even I can tell he has very little idea about how dogs behave. 

People like him because he's a quick fix. You can white wash a cracked wall and have it looking all lovely and new....but the cracks are still there underneath. The quick fix is not always the best.

Cass.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

I have watched quite a few shows already, and many of the dog owners have stated that they have already tried one or more trainers and the trainers have basically been afraid to take the dogs on due to the dog's bizarre behavior. If Cesar is so wrong, and doesn't know what he is doing, and all these trainers say that they would have been able to do a better job than Cesar, why haven't they? I have watched some of t he dogs on his show, and frankly, I can't see some of the dog trainers that I have met even attempting to do what Cesar does.


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

Captbob said:


> I have watched some of t he dogs on his show, and frankly, I can't see some of the dog trainers that I have met even attempting to do what Cesar does.


That''s because they are smart enough not to and know better ways of fixing the issue 

Alright so some of the people have called other trainers...big whoop. WHO did they call? What methods did they try? Was the owner consistant after the trainer left or did they just leave it as be and the dog revert back to his old habits? Were the trainers reputable in any way? Were the people paid to claim that they had tried other trainers?? Also remember, the show will only put Cesar''s success stories on the air in order to keep his poularity up and make it appear that he has a 100% success rate. Ever wonder how many fails Cesar has had?


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> Also remember, the show will only put Cesar''s success stories on the air in order to keep his poularity up and make it appear that he has a 100% success rate. Ever wonder how many fails Cesar has had?


I did see one episode where at the end, they said that one of a pair of dogs featured in that episode (I think they were min pins) was euthanized because the owners could not handle him.

But I still say it's entertainment only. It's not a 15 minute fix. 

Just like on Trading Spaces. They don't *really* make over a room in 24 hours with just two homeowners, a designer and a carpenter working on it. And I still say that bolt of silk the designer bought at a street market in Morrocco should not count towards their $1000 budget, unless they also count the airfare and other related travel costs. I want the $1000 budget to reflect things I could realistically buy! 

Don't mind me. I've been snowbound and watching too much tv.


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

*Cesar Millan*

What he does is what wolves do! I am a firm beleiver in Cesar Millan. What he does works and he is usually a last resort for people. I got my dog to walk by my side now and she knows that I am Alpha thanks to him1 But it is everyone's opinion!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

crazydog06 said:


> What he does is what wolves do! I am a firm beleiver in Cesar Millan. What he does works and he is usually a last resort for people. I got my dog to walk by my side now and she knows that I am Alpha thanks to him1 But it is everyone's opinion!


Comparing wolves to dogs is like comparing monkeys to humans. In many respects they are similar, but in more important ways they are different. I appreciate the links our dogs have to wolves, but I woud never treat my dog with wolf theories if I knew it didn't apply. Recent studies have concluded that dog behavior is different than wolf behavior, and I believe training a dog should reflect as much. Alpha rolling, scruff shaking, and other techiniques that Cesar uses are traditional training techniques based on outdated wolf theories, and many of the originators of these techniques now regret teaching these techniques to the public, because they are often misused, and in the wrong hands or with the wrong dog, these techniques can be dangerous...thus the disclaimer, "seek the hlep of a profession before attempting these techniques." I don't doubt Cesar has a natural abilty to handle a dog, but I also don't believe his techniques translate well to most inexperienced handlers.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> That''s because they are smart enough not to and know better ways of fixing the issue
> 
> Alright so some of the people have called other trainers...big whoop. WHO did they call? What methods did they try? Was the owner consistant after the trainer left or did they just leave it as be and the dog revert back to his old habits? Were the trainers reputable in any way? Were the people paid to claim that they had tried other trainers?? Also remember, the show will only put Cesar''s success stories on the air in order to keep his poularity up and make it appear that he has a 100% success rate. Ever wonder how many fails Cesar has had?



How many fails has he had? It is pretty easy to imply that someone is no good at what they do, but pretty unfair to accuse someone of doing or not doing something correctly unless you have some sort of proof of what you are saying, in my opinion.


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

Same way in that you cant prove to me if he does have a high success rate


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

He is on right now with a 3 legged dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

FranMan said:


> People here would rather see a mean dog put down then fixed with some harder methods. They would rather just give their dog hugs and treats. Even if it means it take 6 month to get their dog to heel....



Hmm, The only dog I ever had put down for aggression put 50 stitches in my daughters face.

As far as Positive reenforcement, I'll use techniques proven by people who are Veterinarians, have degrees in animal psychology, and used by professional trainers to train not only dogs, but wild cats, elephants, Dolphins, Killer Whales any many other animals SAFELY. I have dealt with resource gaurding, fear aggression, and abused animals in my work as a rescuer. I know ther techniques work, and I don't have to invade an animals space and take a chance on getting bitten.

People who coddle their dog and spoil them are the ones who wind up with problems, NOT those who use Positive reenforcement. Positive reenforcement doesn't mean you lure a dog for life, nor does it mean you spoil the dog. It means you give the dog a choice, and reward for the RIGHT choice until the RIGHT choice is prefferred by the dog and becomes a habit. 

The fact is, I've trained useing BOTH methods. I learned to trian useing choke chains, pull and jerk and rolling dogs. I looked for a better way wen the methods failed fearful dogs. I found that better way. 

If you'd like some reading based in BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE....

“Don’t Shoot The Dog” by Karen Pryor 
A great read and a great explanation of why positive training works. 

"How To Teach A New Dog Old Tricks” by Dr. Ian Dunbar 
How to for positive training with an emphasis on problem prevention. 

"Calming Signals" by Turid Rugass, book and video. No one knows dogs better than Turid. Learn what dogs are really saying

"The Other End Of The Leash" by Dr. Patricia McConnell 

“Bringing Light To Shadow: A dog trainer’s diary” by Pamela Dennison 
Shadow bit. A lot. This is the story of how Shadow learned that not biting was better than biting through a program of positive reinforcement. 

"Dominance Theory And Dogs" by James O'Heare 

"Coercion And It's Fallout" by Murray Sidman 

"Genetics And The Social Behavior Of The Dog" by John Paul Scott and John L. Fuller 


I know, this is alot of reading, most people are too lazy to do it, they want to sit and watch TV and have some 'guru' endorsed by Hollywood know nothings.



crazydog06 said:


> What he does is what wolves do! I am a firm beleiver in Cesar Millan. What he does works and he is usually a last resort for people. I got my dog to walk by my side now and she knows that I am Alpha thanks to him1 But it is everyone's opinion!



WRONG!!! Alpha Wolves ONLY forcefully roll others when the INTEND TO KILL THEM. A submissive ALWAYS offers it's belly, NOT the other way around. Also, the only Wolves who bully are lower ranking pack members who are seeking to move up the chain. The Alpha control quietly and with a look.

Also, Dogs ARE NOT wolves. Wild dog packs have completely different pack structure. 

In wolf packs, ONLY the Alpha pair, which mate for life, are allowed to procreate. If another bitch has a litter, they are killed as is the bitch, it's a challenge to the Alpha female.

In dog packs all mature females are allowed to procreate.

This is just hte most obvious differance, there are many others.

Dog packs also only force rolls with killing intent. It's one of the few commonalities. 

That's why rolling a dog can (and often does) EASILY result in a bite. The dog THINKS (instinctivly) it is going to be killed.


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## Moreau (Feb 20, 2007)

Hi all, I was just reading this thread and I admit I've never heard of either of those people. Maybe that show isn't on in Canada?

I do watch Good Dog with Dr. Stanley Coren, have any or you watched his show or read his books? I really like his calm manner. Just wondering what you guys thought of him?

Link to show
http://www.lifenetwork.ca/ontv/titledetails.aspx?titleid=43424

His website
http://www.stanleycoren.com/library.htm


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

Moreau said:


> I do watch Good Dog with Dr. Stanley Coren, have any or you watched his show or read his books? I really like his calm manner. Just wondering what you guys thought of him?


I've read his book "How to Speak Dog" and really liked it. I did'nt know he had a show though....I'll have to check it out.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> People who coddle their dog and spoil them are the ones who wind up with problems, NOT those who use Positive reenforcement. Positive reenforcement doesn't mean you lure a dog for life, nor does it mean you spoil the dog. It means you give the dog a choice, and reward for the RIGHT choice until the RIGHT choice is prefferred by the dog and becomes a habit.



It's funny how people usually mistake possitive based training with permissiveness and spoiling a dog. The fact that no physical corrections are employed does not mean that the trainer is being bland, weak or permissive. 

I have no problem at all with Millan, I think he does a lot of great things for dogs. His work disspelling myths created around bully breed is admirable, as is his devotion to dogs, I honestly believe he does what he does with the dog's best interest in mind. The being said, I do have a problem with the vast amount of fans he has that if it wasn't for his TV show they would have no interest whatsoever in dogs, also the fans that use him as his sole source of information. 

I can't tell you much it irritates me when I post a question in either this or any other web forum and I get a response along the lines of "your dog needs rules boundaries and limitations" or "do you do excercise discipline and affection, IN that order?". Lets face it, what bothers most of us about Millan is not Millan himself, it's the bunch of people regurgitating whatever it is he says, pretending that whatching his show and reading his book will give them the knowledge to give advice.

I remember a long time ago when Jaques Cousteau was on tv, all of the sudden everyone was interested in marine biology, I know of at least thre people that wanted to become marine biologist around that time. Then it was Carl Sagan, aspiring astronomers popped up everywhere. Today it's Cesar Millan, this just goes to proove than fame and exposure are a double edged sword.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

eley said:


> It's funny how people usually mistake possitive based training with permissiveness and spoiling a dog. The fact that no physical corrections are employed does not mean that the trainer is being bland, weak or permissive.
> 
> I have no problem at all with Millan, I think he does a lot of great things for dogs. His work disspelling myths created around bully breed is admirable, as is his devotion to dogs, I honestly believe he does what he does with the dog's best interest in mind. The being said, I do have a problem with the vast amount of fans he has that if it wasn't for his TV show they would have no interest whatsoever in dogs, also the fans that use him as his sole source of information.
> 
> ...


So are you saying that a dog shouldn't have limits and boundries and rules to live by in the home? Mine does, and she gets along fine with everyone.


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## squirt1968 (Feb 19, 2007)

I watch him quite often I saw the show where the dog would not walk on the bare floor. you may not agree with his method but in the end the dog walked on the floor comfortably and that was the outcome they were after. I agree there is no one way to accomplish things. Whnat works for one does not for another we all have to find what works for us and our dog.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

Captbob said:


> So are you saying that a dog shouldn't have limits and boundries and rules to live by in the home? Mine does, and she gets along fine with everyone.



I'm not saying that at all, in fact I couldn't agree more. What I do not agree with is the people that don't have a true understanding of a problem yet voice their "opinion", and this so called opinion is nothing other than something they heard on TV.

As I said, I have no problem with Millan or his methods, in fact I happen to agree with a lot of the things he says. It is the subset of his fans that before him had no knowledge whatsoever about dogs, their sole source of dog knowledge comes from watching his tv show and perhaps reading his book, and once they saw a show or two go around giving advice and voicing their opinion on how a dog should be handled. The same people that heaven forbid you should present them with an alternative way of dealing with a problem because they saw on TV that "their" way actually works faster and better. I wonder if those same people go around giving legal advice based on what they saw on Judge Judy.

I think these people simply regurgitating CMs mantras, would be as much as someone asking for cooking advice and hearing "kick it up another notch!!" as advice. 

THOSE are the ones that irritate me.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

eley said:


> It's funny how people usually mistake possitive based training with permissiveness and spoiling a dog. The fact that no physical corrections are employed does not mean that the trainer is being bland, weak or permissive.


So true and worth repeating.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

opokki said:


> So true and worth repeating.


I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...



You are 100% right, petting, huggin, cuddling, and feeding treats for the sakes of treating is useless, and has little if anything to do with true possitive reinforcement based training. The idea that a +R trainer is basically a walking treat dispenser, is as true as the idea that a non+R is brutal and abussive. Whether you use correction based training, +r based training, or something in the middle (what I use) timming is crucial. Rewards or corrections should be done in a timely fashion, otherwise they are useless.

People that think that clicker training or any purely possitive method is all love and rainbows should look a little harder. These methods simply think of alternative ways of getting a dog to do or stop doing something, and while very useful and effective, they are not the magic bullet of dog training.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...


I wouldn't think that would work in most instances, not just yours. As eley has stated, that is not what positve reinforcement training is all about.


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## SadesMom (Feb 21, 2007)

Wow, my views on CM. I like his show personally, but I also like watching Family Guy and Futurama on Adult Swim. Doesn't say much. It's a tv show there's sometimes downright ignorant (as in do not know any better and are completely oblivious to the fact) that their dog gets away with everything, and yet all they do is complain about it. For example: My dog digs up the backyard... I've not tried anything to stop him, can you stop him for me? lol sorry just amusing to me.

I've seen that many owners have their own ideas to training and reward/punishment. CM is just a tv show "character" (based on the fact that although he does know about dog behavior his shows are still cut to bring in the highest viewer volume) and I would say that differently if I knew him personally. I have found that some of his techniques are quite enlightening I have found some of the common sense techniques that I would have probably never thought of or just completely didnt notice. 

Overall I think it's a fun show to watch, but it's just that, it's a show. Not my dog, not my hometown and usually no behavior problems that I have. It's on TV to make money so it's going to show the high/low points that will catch a watchers attention. And that's the Average Joe's attention, not everyone is a dog lover/owner/trainer/etc. XD

And I think it's funny when he shakes his body like and excited doggie. It amuses me lol...


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## KatzNK9 (Feb 8, 2007)

I love his show (never miss it) & have read his latest book ... I'm a big fan.

I don't agree with all of his methods but you can't argue with some of the amazing successes he has had.

I started watching his show right before I got my golden pup. Ozzy is naturally a dominant one (11 months old in a few days) & I can't even begin to tell you how "thinking like Cesar" & using some of his techniques has helped me. Ozzy knows who his pack leader is ... and I have Cesar to thank for that.


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

*Cesar Millan*

I like him, but I do have some questions on his techniques. I watch his show every Friday and some reruns. I think that as long as he has changed the owners way of thinking, then he has done his job. If he could only change my neighbors minds!


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

I let my buddy take my Ed Frawley DVD for the weekend. He even sells Cesar's book http://www.leerburg.com/975.htm

and more
http://www.leerburg.com/books.htm


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I personally like Cesar and agree with most, but not always all of his methods. I know it is a show so of course they try to get good ratings and all that tv stuff, but I believe that Cesar is just someone who understands dogs. He has done a lot of good things for dogs, expecially dogs known for their agggression problems. He has catch phrases like "excercise, discipline and affection" because _it is a tv show, but in reality he has done lots for dogkind. 

I think he and all over dog behaviorists are a great asset to the world because there are SO many people who have dogs and don't take the time to understand them. Dogs do work in packs and if you have a spoiled rotten dog that has no limits then you will most likely have problems...I used to think that was common sense...but again there are so many people who don't know about dogs that they do it anyway. To me it doesn't just go for dogs either. Think of what happens if your children are given every little thing that they ask or moan for...they become selfish and have a lot of problem sharing and what not. It's the same way for dogs IMO. If you a dog learns that it can get away with whatever it wants to then it's going to try it's best to do that. I have come accross this in my life. My ex-roommate and I adopted a dog together and he became her dog as I adopted Bridgette (my dog at the moment) as my dog. I wanted Bridgette to be well behaved and obedient as well as a friendly companion. I admit, she is very much loved and mildly spoiled, but she knows exactly what she can and cannot do. As for Billy (my ex-roommates dog) she treats him like a person. He is allowed to do whatever he wants and Sarah actually gets mad at anyone who tries to tell him "no". Well since I have moved out and have a totally different life, Billy has gone totally downhill. We had him over to stay with us while she went away and he was awful! He pooped and peed inside our house (he is, or i should say was housetrained when I moved out) and he barked at everyone who came by and growled at other dogs...it was a less than fun experience. Well if he was going to live with us and be around my dog, he was certainly not going to keep this up for 2 weeks! I immediately started to tell him "no" and correct his bad behavior and reward the good and after only a few days he was being as good as ever.

It just saddens me that people think they can let their pets do anything they want. Yes, the Dog Whisperer is only a tv show, but a lot of what Cesar says about how to treat your dogs is very much true. 

That's just my opinion anway. LoL._


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...


That is NOT what Positive reenforcement is. If it was, their woild be a lot of big cat trainers walking around without hands or faces! Petting Hugging nad Pleading with a dog is like apeasing a child, you wind up with a spoiled brat. 

My dogs have limits, they know what they are. I set them up to succeed, give thm the training. I start with Bite inhibition at 8 weeks, along with Doggy Zen to teach them it's better to wait than to snach things. This training establishes ME as the leader WITHOUT punishment. I provide all good things as long as MY conditions are met. 

Example: Dog jumps up on human, human pushes dog off, the dog thinks the human is playing a game and jumps again.

Dog jumps on human, human turns back and tucks hands until the dog calms down (turning your back is a 'calming signal') human counts to five, THEN give CALM praise for NOT jumping makeing NOT jumping a better deal. 

Read through the Doggy Zen article, it's based on BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE. It is the basis for a good NILIF program. By training a dog to wait for permission to eat, or take treats, or to leave items alone you establish yourself as the leader.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

> Example: Dog jumps up on human, human pushes dog off, the dog thinks the human is playing a game and jumps again.
> 
> Dog jumps on human, human turns back and tucks hands until the dog calms down (turning your back is a 'calming signal') human counts to five, THEN give CALM praise for NOT jumping makeing NOT jumping a better deal.


But, Carla-is this really a big deal? I guess I'm from the old school that believes when a dog does this, he/she just wants to be acknowledged, want to play, likes you and wants your attention, etc. One instance this past Thanksgiving was where my sister and I went over to some people she knew and the house was full of people...including a six pound Yorkie. He took up with me early on and when we sat down to eat, he came up to my chair and started scratching on my leg (didn't hurt of course, just his way to get my attention). He was looking for a hand out, which I readily acknowledged by giving him a couple of green beans. He had tried this with a few others and they ignored him. Maybe I shouldn't have given in but, big brown eyes were always a weakness!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yes, it can be. I just checked up on a Mastiff that was inthe pound. At six months, she's in quarenteen for jumping up on a person and SCRATCHING them, breaking the skin. If she had been taught by her owners NOT to jump, she wouldn't be there. 

Honestly,allowing a dog to jump is rude and can cause injury. Many people allow small dogs to get away with things they wouldn't allow in a larger breed. Small dogs can scratch, and frankly it's irritating.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

I suppose you're right. I wouldn't want them doing it with just anybody...me mostly as I don't mind, although Katie did scratch me several times doing just that. I guess they can't distinguish who it's ok with and not and we can't explain to them. When I think of this, I was primarily thinking of small (30 pounds and under) dogs.


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## opossum (Feb 20, 2007)

I like Cesar but I think there are both good and bad things about the show. I like that it teaches dog behavior and shows people that dogs do not think like humans and should not be treated as such. So many dog problems people have stem from their expectations of the dog understanding behaviors and emotions that are strictly human.

What I don't like about the show is that it does show some things that people should not attempt on their own. They do say not to on the show but a lot of people don't pay any attention to those sorts of warnings. It's also, like any TV show, cut together and so people may miss some of the subtle but important aspects of some things because they were edited out.

Overall I think the show has benefited dogs in general and maybe encouraged people with problems to find a local pro to help them out.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

I saw Pat Miller at a conference. She was excellent. We only have speakers that use positive methods, CM does some things OK but I don't like the way he checks the dogs. That may make the dog fear the owner & not do an unwanted behaviour, but doesn't guarantee it won't do the same behaviour to someone else, worse still a child.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

opossum said:


> I like Cesar but I think there are both good and bad things about the show. I like that it teaches dog behavior and shows people that dogs do not think like humans and should not be treated as such. So many dog problems people have stem from their expectations of the dog understanding behaviors and emotions that are strictly human.
> 
> What I don't like about the show is that it does show some things that people should not attempt on their own. They do say not to on the show but a lot of people don't pay any attention to those sorts of warnings. It's also, like any TV show, cut together and so people may miss some of the subtle but important aspects of some things because they were edited out.
> 
> Overall I think the show has benefited dogs in general and maybe encouraged people with problems to find a local pro to help them out.


There are many things that people see on TV that they are warned not to try. Some people just like to prove that Darwin was right......


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## GinoB (May 22, 2007)

*Re: Cesar Milan*

If you really want to know who the real "Dog Whisper" is? I have a book that was wrote by Dr. Dare Miller Ph.D. called "*Dog-Master System*". This book has been around since the 60's and its very informative on how to train your dog. He doesnt like the way Cesar Millan use choked chains to train a dog, it makes the dog behave poorly. Dr. Miller use different type of chains he invented, alot of people tried to copy his way of teaching a dog including his chain links.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I am not a great Ceasar fan- some methods I flat out disagree with- one of them is the "flooding" method- where you take what the dog is afraid of and force it- I have seen in real life this backfire as much as help. 
However- some of the situations, the owner has allowed things to progress way too far. Especially with working types that havent had enough exercise etc. Granted- we really do not know how long he worked with the dog- but it is rather sad that with even just a few weeks of training- the dog has a better life and the peopel as well. 
I do find him chovanisitic a bit.. But - what the hey- sometimes he is right. Woman need to step up to the plate too.. I am a licensed certified trainer- and when I use to show up for classes I taught and all it had was my first initial and my last name- in Sch.. classes- I use to get some looks too.. lol. I am 5'6 120 pounds but I know how to handle a dog in this physical sport.. Not to be rude- but if he talked to me the way I have seen him talk to some of the woman on the show, I would take him out.. lol.. Then again- I would have no reason to call him either.. lol. I never asked my husband how to handle the kids, and sure as you know what would do the same with one of the dogs- its dealt with and stopped. It never progresses to the stages I have seen some of the situations by the time they call someone..


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

OK, this thread is 5 months old and doesn't need to be dragged out again. I'm locking it!


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