# Pros and cons...beagle vs puggle...help



## lazytitan (Aug 21, 2008)

I want one or the other but not sure which one to get...

I live in an APT for now but getting house in about a year or so. 

i have two cats. one is 1 year old (very playful very smart) other is 4 years old(very lazy scared of everything) 

Want a playful dog, heard beagle are very energetic but as long as puggles are playful i'm happy. 

Either myself or girlfriend is usally home. only work mondays and fridays other then that one of us is always home.

I hate the pug tail, not sure if all puggles get that tail but all i saw online did.

I would like to train them not sure if there is one that is smarter. 

I like that beagle are bigger but not really a issue. and there ears pretty awesome, like the floppy ear look. 

I just don't know which to pick going crazy and i got to make my choice in next few days. help...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

If you want a purebred, get a beagle.

If you don't care if it's a purebred, pick out a nice shelter dog.

Be aware that there are tons of poorly-bred beagles out there, because it is a very popular breed. If you get one from a good breeder, expect to wait.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I agree with Ron E--beagles require much exercise tho and also I understand they can suffer from separation anxiety more than other breeds--something to consider--I would look into a beagle rescue agency or a shelter dog..


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## zannie (Mar 12, 2008)

i have a rescue beagle pug mix.he's a good dog but he was very hard to house train and they have the beagle bark its sharp and loud and use it often...check out a shelter or rescue groups ,please don't buy a puggle from a breeder(i use that term loosley)it only adds to the problem...


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

Besides your local shelter here's a few other sites to check

http://www.1-800-save-a-pet.com/

www.petfinder.com


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

I would stay away from the Puggle only because there are no reputable breeders who will mix two breeds to produce pet pups to sell. Consider that both the Beagle & Pug sire/dam will not be out of good breeding stock, simply because no one worth their salt in either breed would sell to someone out to mix breeds or to breed without any goals beside profit. In turn, people who want to make a buck will not go to the lenghts to acquire a well bred dog.

Beagles are a hunting breed. They are highly active as pups/adolescents & moreso than physical activity, the gears in their little brains are constantly going - beagles are SMART! Because of this intelligence, they do best when given something to do. Obedience training, hunting, agility ... something. A Beagle is at it's best when they have a chance to use their natural athleticism & intelligence. They can be stubborn and do not do well left alone -they're needy dogs. And nosy. They want to beinvolved in everything, investigate all the goings on in thehousehold. Beagles are generally hardy withfew health problems but if you get a puppymill osr BYB Beagle, the health & temerament problems are astounding! So be careful as to where you get one and do as much research as possible before bringing one into your home ...


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

I would avoid the beagle AND puggle. The beagle because you live in an apt and beagles are barkers (that's what they were bred for) and the puggle because it's never wise to support backyard breeders.

I'd get yourself a nice quiet shelter dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I've never met a Puggle I wanted to live with. IMO, it's not a good mix of breeds. Beagles are fun dogs, but they aren't good apartment dogs. Neither are Puggles, for that matter. I also recommend going to a shelter and picking out a nice smallish/medium dog that isn't too hyper or barky.


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## wyopets (Aug 19, 2008)

Are there any dog parks or places the dog could run nearby? You say there will be someone home most of the time so a beagle might not be completely out of the question energy-wise in an apartment. Because they are such a popular breed you can usually find dogs with beagle as their prominent breed in the shelter and sometimes you luck out and they don't like barking as much as a purebred. Ding (pictured below) is an aussie/beagle cross and even though she has the beagle bark has luckily not inherited the desire to use it so much and has never been as active as I'd expect of a herding/hunting mix (granted, she is a little overweight). Even in my small local shelter there's usually a beagle mix and they're often much cheaper to adopt than to buy and make just as good of pets.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

every puggle i've met (about 5 or so) have been hyper hyper hyper.... they also varied in size tremendously (perhaps using dif size beagles?) 

If you really want a puggle i have seen them in shelters as they are one of the more popular designer dogs and im sure they annoyed the heck out of their owners.


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## Mike M (Aug 15, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> I would stay away from the Puggle only because there are no reputable breeders who will mix two breeds to produce pet pups to sell. Consider that both the Beagle & Pug sire/dam will not be out of good breeding stock, simply because no one worth their salt in either breed would sell to someone out to mix breeds or to breed without any goals beside profit. In turn, people who want to make a buck will not go to the lenghts to acquire a well bred dog.


Respectfully, that's an extremely broad position to take. I'm not declaring myself a dog expert. In fact, I will admit right now that 99.9% of the individuals on this forum have a higher dog IQ then me. However, if the present day dog is an ancestor of the wolf - then technically isn't every "pure bread" dog a mixed breed of some type? 

With that said, it is imperative Lazytitan that IF you are considering a puggle you should research the breeder very well before purchasing the dog. Urbanbeagle is completely right that there are many breeders who offer mixed breeds that are simply out for your money rather than the overall health of the dogs they breed. Again Urbanbeagle - no disrespect.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Mike M said:


> Respectfully, that's an extremely broad position to take. I'm not declaring myself a dog expert. In fact, I will admit right now that 99.9% of the individuals on this forum have a higher dog IQ then me. However, if the present day dog is an ancestor of the wolf - then technically isn't every "pure bread" dog a mixed breed of some type?
> 
> With that said, it is imperative Lazytitan that IF you are considering a puggle you should research the breeder very well before purchasing the dog. Urbanbeagle is completely right that there are many breeders who offer mixed breeds that are simply out for your money rather than the overall health of the dogs they breed. Again Urbanbeagle - no disrespect.


oh my iam afraid you are about to become very educated on this subject... 

No responsible breeder intentionally mixes two purebred dogs.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Mike M said:


> Respectfully, that's an extremely broad position to take. I'm not declaring myself a dog expert. In fact, I will admit right now that 99.9% of the individuals on this forum have a higher dog IQ then me. However, if the present day dog is an ancestor of the wolf - then technically isn't every "pure bread" dog a mixed breed of some type?



Honestly, it's not an extreme position, becuase there simply are no reputable breeders who are creating the doodles or puggles or poos or other whatsits. That doesn't mean any mixing of breeds is unethical. Sled dog breeders will cross sledding breeds, some police dog breeders will cross the Mal/GSD, then you have lurchers, some rabbit dog breeders will cross the Beag/Basset to get better line control & agility or Beag/Harrier for speed or for fox, etc. There are valid reasons why breeds are crossed, but to create the poo dogs and charge $1200 for a fancy mutt - all ethical breeders will breed for great pets but no ethical breeder will breed two pet quality dogs to each other to produce pets. It's done solely to fill a niche in the market without regard for the future of either breed. The crosses are not always hypoallergenic, healthier or worth the pricetag. They are usually breeding F1 crosses and therefore the litter will be a hodgepodge of types and temperaments. 

Today's pure bred dogs all stemmed from a mix of breeds, yes. However, care was taken by their founders to create a uniform breed that would breed true and produce pups that were similar in temperament, appearance, ability. There have been cases where breeders opt to cross to another breed, usually when there is a meager base genepool. Even then, they are doing it for completely different reasons than a puggle breeder & are also working to bring back uniformity with the outcrossed litter. 

It's just another marketing gimmick, such as the "Pocket Beagles" and "rare colors" ads are. And then, the issue of breeding stock comes up again. It's very difficult (and rightly so) to acquire a well bred dog. No one interested in making pets is going to take the trouble to find a well bred dog from a good breeder, and no reputable breeder would sell to them. I would go ballistic if someone used one of my pups to breed a puggle  There is so much work involved in breeding well rounded purebreds that you hope will have a positive impact on the breed that it's just pointless, IMHO, to do the pet dog mixes. 

*Poo Dogs & Designer Mutts*
http://home.comcast.net/~NoPuppyMillsVA/Poo-dogs___Designer_Mutts/poo-dogs___designer_mutts.html

*CrossBreeds*
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/newsroom/crossbreeds1.html

*Much Ado About Poo*
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/poodogs.html


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I have 2 beagles.. one is hyper one is not. Kody is a typical beagle. Bailey must be part cat or something.

Kody howls, counter surfs, and runs and runs and runs.

I love him though. I had him in my apartment and we had to move out and pay $1000 to break our lease because he annoyed everyone. He is asleep on my lap right now and I can tell you without lying one bit he is the most affectionate dog I have EVER owned.

Im sure UB will attest to the fact that beagles LOVE their people. They do get very attached easily, but its hard not to get attached to them just as much as they are to you.

I will never NOT own a beagle in my life.

But please please do research if you decide on a beagle. Theyre popping up in classified ads all over the place here ever since Uno won best in show.

Sadly.. I have also seen tons in shelters, and our beagle rescue is desperately needing foster homes. (I would, but 3 is my limit in a rental house..)

OH! ETA- Kody is from a backyard breeder. I got him before I knew what BYB's were. So I can honestly tell you that he has seperation anxiety, (he has eaten like 5 sets of mini blinds,) and he HOWLS non stop if I walk out the door and he cant get to me. He was very poorly bred and doesnt fit the breed standard much. If you want a BEAGLE dont get one from a BYB, you get a beagle.. but not what you think youre getting. Just my 2 cents


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Mike M said:


> However, if the present day dog is an ancestor of the wolf - then technically isn't every "pure bread" dog a mixed breed of some type?...IF you are considering a puggle you should research the breeder very well before purchasing the dog.


Your argument is a common one..._didn't all purebreds start out as a mix?_ The answer ends up being trivial however, because it takes a male and a female to breed.  That kind of mix. 

The question I find more compelling is not what a dog's origin is, but rather, _fad or function_? Every geneticists whose work I've read advises moderation in selecting for specific traits. So I have to marvel at the arrogance of designer dog breeders who totally ignore the combined recommendations of those with vastly superior knowledge. Who knows how fads get started? Sometimes it takes just one aggressive individual promoting a certain trait heavily represented in his dogs and bam!...a fad is born. Even knowledgeable people are often too lazy to properly investigate and research the validity of claims made by these individuals. BTW, this argument can be served up to purebred breeders too. 

The bottom line ends at your last point...do the research! Knowledgeable, ethical breeders will not resent or evade questions. If you do not know why a breed standard calls for hare feet, well sprung ribs or a harsh, wiry coat, make it your business to find out if the breeder does. And breeder worth his or her salt will question the purpose and function of traits they are selecting. If you do this exercise, chances are you'll likely choose the purebred breeder over the designer dog breeder. Though there are few quality purebred breeders, I'd imagine they are more prevalent than any breeder who's mixing breeds...and exponentially so.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

To the OP - I would stay away from BOTH the Beagle and the Puggle.

As an owner of two Beagles I can tell you that your situation is really not ideal. Beagles are lousy apartment dogs. They love to run outdoors, they can be very rambunctious and they are very noisy which does not bode well for neighbours. Lastly, they have an ingrained prey drive due to their purpose as hunting dogs, one that is almost impossible train out, and I would be VERY careful about your cats if I were you. Beagles are also notoriously hard to train.

If you want a Puggle, get one from your nearest shelter, NOT a pet store or a "breeder". Breeders who breed Puggles are almost always irresponsible and unethical. 

Is there a reason you have chosen these two breeds? There are many other breeds that would be much better suited to your situation and lifestyle. Why do you have to choose in a few days?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Ninja
They didn't even get name right should not it be named a GleGGle, excuse the poor attempt at humor. I am mind-boggled at the idea of a Puggle. I would think after a few months on forum that I couldn't be surprised by this mixture of dog's they keep coming up with. I am depressed


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## AkiraleShiba (Dec 9, 2007)

Mike M: Most primitive breeds were born around the dawn of civilisation. I know the Shiba Inu can be traced down to 2,000 B.C. so 4,000 years of breeding I think we can say it makes a purebred dog

Puggles do not age gracefully! As much as they might be cute when they're puppies some get ugly when older. This is one of the reasons they end up in shelters so much with the howling part.

Why not take time to reconsider your choice?


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Ninja
> They didn't even get name right should not it be named a GleGGle, excuse the poor attempt at humor. I am mind-boggled at the idea of a Puggle. I would think after a few months on forum that I couldn't be surprised by this mixture of dog's they keep coming up with. I am depressed


I agree...take a dog that was bred to run for hours in the countryside every day, and mix it with another dog that can't run two miles without risking heatstroke. The logic escapes me too.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

I wouldn't put a beagle in an apartment - way too vocal of a breed (they _should _be vocal!). They also have the energy and stamina of a hunting breed. I'd also avoid puggles, as no responsible breeder would breed mixed breeds for money (or any legitimate reason I can think of). Not to mention, you might end up with the flat face of the pug and the energy of a beagle - a dog that wants to run all day but doesn't have the facial structure to breathe properly. Cruel, IMO.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

rosemaryninja said:


> I agree...take a dog that was bred to run for hours in the countryside every day, and mix it with another dog that can't run two miles without risking heatstroke. The logic escapes me too.


Ninja
It's kinda wierd, I think I have been around too long. Many years ago the Irish Setter was a fair bird dog, not a barn stormer like the English Pointer/Setters (wide ranging types with tons of style. Maybe not as good retrieving like the German Pointers/Continental breeds. but more than adquate for a nice day of leisurely hunting and attractive to look at. Problem is they were too pretty, then the show people with their wisdom started breeding pretty to pretty and slowly bred out a lot of the hunting instincts. Then some of the field people got together and decided under the table breeding of some English setters into the Irish Setters and came up with a smaller orange type dog they started naming the Red Setter. A better bird dog but not the most attractive dog to watch. There is no point to this narrative just some history info on breeding programs. Take what you will from it.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Ninja
> It's kinda wierd, I think I have been around too long. Many years ago the Irish Setter was a fair bird dog, not a barn stormer like the English Pointer/Setters (wide ranging types with tons of style. Maybe not as good retrieving like the German Pointers/Continental breeds. but more than adquate for a nice day of leisurely hunting and attractive to look at. Problem is they were too pretty, then the show people with their wisdom started breeding pretty to pretty and slowly bred out a lot of the hunting instincts. Then some of the field people got together and decided under the table breeding of some English setters into the Irish Setters and came up with a smaller orange type dog they started naming the Red Setter. A better bird dog but not the most attractive dog to watch. There is no point to this narrative just some history info on breeding programs. Take what you will from it.



I agree, there will always be selective breeding - within the species, within the group,even within the breed. But form should follow function, like it did in your example with the Setters. In any case, form should never _hinder_ function, which it does in the Puggle. Patty Staub said it best: it's like cutting off a basketball player at the knees so he can fit through the door.


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## Mike M (Aug 15, 2008)

Interesting. Thanks for your replies - and I apologize for lazyitan if I took away from your original question. Maybe some day there would be a more appropriate thread to specifically talk about the hybrid vs. purebread issue - or if there already is - please direct me!!


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Mike M, there is a wealth of information on our forums -- this topic has been debated over and over again. Here are some of the threads, but beware, they can get quite lengthy.

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/3845-designer-dogs.html
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/1832-puggles.html
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/3845-designer-dogs.html

To the OP, it wouldn't hurt for you to take a look at some of these threads too.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Honestly, it's not an extreme position, becuase there simply are no reputable breeders who are creating the doodles or puggles or poos or other whatsits.


Sorry, but this is a load of crap.

First of all, to be "reputable" means to have a good reputation among your peers and customers. A puggle breeders is reputable if they have a good reputation among other puggle breeders and the people they deal with, customers, suppliers, etc. 

The question is are they ethical and responsible breeders.

Puggles have been around for a for more then 20 years. Many breeders have grown up with these dogs and love them and breed them for the exact same reason purebred breeders do. Many puggle breeders heath check their sire and dams and breed for good temperament, health, and companionship qualities. And, just like purebred breeders, many do not.

Puggles are popular because they tend to make better companion dogs then beagles and are healthier then pugs.

However, if you want this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDKwbWA5Tdg&watch_response

then you should definitely buy only from a "reputable" purebred breeders with champion bloodlines.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> Puggles have been around for a for more then 20 years. Many breeders have grown up with these dogs and love them and breed them for the exact same reason purebred breeders do. Many puggle breeders heath check their sire and dams and breed for good temperament, health, and companionship qualities. And, just like purebred breeders, many do not.



I don't care how long they've been around. We had a Lhasa poo 20+ yrs ago with a grade 3 heart murmur and epilepsy. If you have two dogs, even of different breeds, and both are recessive for a problem, you will have 25% of the pups affected right off the bat. Another 50% will be heterozygus for that problem, and another 25% will be neither affected or carriers. Now, here's where the fun of breeding begins - out of the litter, how do you know who is heterozygus from the ones who are not carriers? That is how genetics work & no amount of cross breeding will change that. Now, of course it's sometimes unavoidable that two recessives might be together, but before I breed a litter I want to know what is in the dog or bitch's bloodline for this very reason. This type of research is what seperates the good from the bad, and I honestly do not know any puggle or poo breeder who has ever done this - they're too busy claiming hybrid vigor. It's the purebred breeders who have their ears red from talking to breeders from the vertical and horizontal pedigree ... but then I've never met a puggle breeder who even knew what a vertical pedigree was  





> Puggles are popular because they tend to make better companion dogs then beagles and are healthier then pugs.



LOL. Puggles make better companions than Beagles? ROFL!!!!! Says who, you? No, any well bred companion breed, Beagles included, make awesome pets. Beagles are one of the best companion breeds, as are Pugs. That is why a Puggle would be a good companion, becuase of that similarity between the two mixes. I have pups in homes with an autistic child (and he's being shown in UKC), very young children, one going for his therapy dog certs, another with one leg of her CD title, a pup from my last litter is being trained for her U-CD title ... who knew I should have been breeding puggles, then I'd have good companion dogs to $ell!!!




> However, if you want this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDKwbWA5Tdg&watch_response
> 
> then you should definitely buy only from a "reputable" purebred breeders with champion bloodlines.



No, you should buy from reputable breeders who are breeding with the goal of improvement & preservation of the breed, not breeding for ribbons.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Of all the designer dogs and whatnot- the puggle is my least favorite! You can pretty much tell what a goldendoodle is going to look like.

There are SO many different looks to the puggle. You are getting such a crapshoot, why not just go to your local shelter and get a mutt? IMO it will probably be cuter than 95% of all the puggles I have seen.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> LOL. Puggles make better companions than Beagles? ROFL!!!!! Says who, you? No, any well bred companion breed, Beagles included, make awesome pets. Beagles are one of the best companion breeds, as are Pugs. That is why a Puggle would be a good companion, becuase of that similarity between the two mixes. I have pups in homes with an autistic child (and he's being shown in UKC), very young children, one going for his therapy dog certs, another with one leg of her CD title, a pup from my last litter is being trained for her U-CD title ... who knew I should have been breeding puggles, then I'd have good companion dogs to $ell!!!
> .


For the average dog dog owner scent hounds or any type are difficult dogs to own. That why there's so many of them, mostly beagles, in shelters. 
Their baying can be intolerable for many people, peoples neighbours, etc.
If they get loose they often follow their noses into the next area code. They are probably the most food obsessed dog on the planet and many people find it difficult to keep them at a healthy weight.

While fine for the experienced owners who love beagles and hounds, they often don't work out for inexperienced hound owners and first time owners. Puggles do quite well with these owners.


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## JDub (Apr 8, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> You can pretty much tell what a goldendoodle is going to look like.


Wrong.


I used to have a neighbor that has 2 of GD's....same litter...and they are very different from each other. One is the stereotypical "cute doodle", the other is a mess.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> For the average dog dog owner scent hounds or any type are difficult dogs to own. That why there's so many of them, mostly beagles, in shelters.
> Their baying can be intolerable for many people, peoples neighbours, etc.
> If they get loose they often follow their noses into the next area code. They are probably the most food obsessed dog on the planet and many people find it difficult to keep them at a healthy weight.



Beagles are overrun in some shelters because of irresponsible hunters who dump their dogs. And becuase you're right, they're not for everyone. Puppy mills and BYBs love Beagles because they can be bought cheap and always sell. The pet stores love 'em because they are bought cheap and sell for several hundred dollars. They are widely available and easy for John Q to purchase on an impulse. 



> While fine for the experienced owners who love beagles and hounds, they often don't work out for inexperienced hound owners and first time owners. Puggles do quite well with these owners



You're assuming that the Puggle inherits the Pug tendencies and not the Beagle's? That's a mighty big assumption. Cross breeds do not breed true and do not simply have the more convenient characteristics of one breed over another because we'd like them to.


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## Sxt-Rich (Aug 17, 2008)

My puggles great, a little hyper at times but nothing 20 minutes on the treadmill can't handle


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## zannie (Mar 12, 2008)

as a owner of a pug beagle mix i do not think its a good mix at all.i love tater to death but he is a handful he barks like crazy he has had cherry eyes he broke his leg and he's a bed hog..i rescued him from a puppy mill he was full of worms and has a over bite and his legs are very short to the degree he looks deformed the reason i got him because the guy who bred him said he was unsaleable and normaly they wack these dogs over the head and end them they have no use for them..so please don't tell me that any breeder of these mixed up breeds are repetable i don't buy it they are ripping people off ...and i wonder how many of these poor pups are wacked on the head,i bet alot poor breeding and only caring about money


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> Of all the designer dogs and whatnot- the puggle is my least favorite! You can pretty much tell what a goldendoodle is going to look like.
> 
> There are SO many different looks to the puggle. You are getting such a crapshoot, *why not just go to your local shelter and get a mutt? * IMO it will probably be cuter than 95% of all the puggles I have seen.



Funny you say that!!

I was at the kill shelter today and the very first run Ilooked at had a PB JRT, a Shiba inu PB ,and get this a *PUGGLE*. I couldn't help but think of this thread

there was also a PB american eskimo... but you can't find purebreds at the shelter.....


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## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

lazytitan said:


> I want one or the other but not sure which one to get...
> 
> I live in an APT for now but getting house in about a year or so.
> 
> ...


Is there a reason you decided on a beagle or puggle. What made you decide this was the breed/mix for you?



UrbanBeagles said:


> Beagles are overrun in some shelters because of irresponsible hunters who dump their dogs. .


I thought it was doodles over running the shelters.



Mike M said:


> Interesting. Thanks for your replies - and I apologize for lazyitan if I took away from your original question. Maybe some day there would be a more appropriate thread to specifically talk about the hybrid vs. purebread issue - or if there already is - please direct me!!


Wow - you missed a lot. You should have been here when Dog-man was posting. Unfortunately he was banned forever but, hopefully he is still lurking and reading the posts.



AkiraleShiba said:


> Puggles do not age gracefully! As much as they might be cute when they're puppies some get ugly when older.


Oh crap, that's why I'm so ugly. I'm a old ugly puggle - sh!!!!!!t


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Canadian Dog said:


> Is there a reason you decided on a beagle or puggle. What made you decide this was the breed/mix for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I saw at least 10 to 15 poodle mixes today. So don't get sarcastic yet.... That and pit mixes were the biggest chunk. I'd say a good 10% of the dogs were poos...

Any "breed" can show up in a shelter. Its more of a question of "why".

Dog-mans opinions were a bit strong and misplaced IMO


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## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> I saw at least 10 to 15 poodle mixes today. So don't get sarcastic yet.... That and pit mixes were the biggest chunk. I'd say a good 10% of the dogs were poos...
> 
> Any "breed" can show up in a shelter. Its more of a question of "why".
> 
> Dog-mans opinions were a bit strong and misplaced IMO


Exactly - any 'breed' or 'mix' can show up in a shelter - we agree.

Dog-man's opinions were strong and entertaining IMO. It's too bad he went over the line.


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## Sxt-Rich (Aug 17, 2008)

zannie said:


> as a owner of a pug beagle mix i do not think its a good mix at all.i love tater to death but he is a handful he barks like crazy he has had cherry eyes he broke his leg and he's a bed hog..i rescued him from a puppy mill he was full of worms and has a over bite and his legs are very short to the degree he looks deformed the reason i got him because the guy who bred him said he was unsaleable and normaly they wack these dogs over the head and end them they have no use for them..so please don't tell me that any breeder of these mixed up breeds are repetable i don't buy it they are ripping people off ...and i wonder how many of these poor pups are wacked on the head,i bet alot poor breeding and only caring about money


So because you got a puggle pup with problems means that it is not a good breed? There are tons of people with puggles in good health including myself.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Sxt-Rich said:


> So because you got a puggle pup with problems means that it is not a good breed? There are tons of people with puggles in good health including myself.


Its not a breed...

And also how old is your dog? 

You can get lucky... just because your puggle is fine doesn't neccesarilly mean squat either.


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## Sxt-Rich (Aug 17, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> Its not a breed...
> 
> And also how old is your dog?
> 
> You can get lucky... just because your puggle is fine doesn't neccesarilly mean squat either.



Mine is almost a year old. 

I know people that have had serious problems with a variety of dogs but because a small percentage of people have had problems with a certain breed/type doesn't mean that it is a "bad" dog to get. 

Especially when someone says I dont recommend you get "x" dog because mine had problems. Just because his had problems doesnt mean they all will. 

But to each his own...


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Sxt-Rich said:


> Mine is almost a year old.
> 
> I know people that have had serious problems with a variety of dogs but because a small percentage of people have had problems with a certain breed/type doesn't mean that it is a "bad" dog to get.
> 
> ...



that point also works in reverse. Thats all im saying.

Just because yours is fine doesn't mean there aren't really sick ones out there. 

And if your dog is only a year old I don't really think you have much room to vouch about the health of the "breed" from your *one* experience with *one* dog for *one* year. Give your dog a few more years. Alot of things take a while to show up.

I don't know why we are discussing health anyway, the issue people are having is the _*crossing of two breeds for no purpose besides $$$$.*_


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## Sxt-Rich (Aug 17, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> that point also works in reverse. Thats all im saying.
> 
> *Just because yours is fine doesn't mean there aren't really sick ones out there. *
> And if your dog is only a year old I don't really think you have much room to vouch about the health of the "breed" from your *one* experience with *one* dog for *one* year. Give your dog a few more years. Alot of things take a while to show up.
> ...



I completely understand what your saying but that works with anyone. Just because someones Lab is perfect doesnt mean there arent any sick ones out there. Just because someones poodle is sick doesnt mean there are no healthy ones out there. 

Reason I brought up health was because thread starter was interested in getting a puggle and someone made a comment saying that he doesnt think it is a good mix because his had problems.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Sxt-Rich said:


> I completely understand what your saying but that works with anyone. Just because someones Lab is perfect doesnt mean there arent any sick ones out there. Just because someones poodle is sick doesnt mean there are no healthy ones out there.
> 
> Reason I brought up health was because thread starter was interested in getting a* puggle and someone made a comment saying that he doesnt think it is a good mix because his had problems.*



well that i can agree with..

My purebred dog has so many genetic issues, its truely wrong that som'one bred her. 
AlsoI just think its sad as how these designer breeders prey on the idea of hybrid vigor, som'one with a previously sick dog may fall for that crap.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

If you breed a 'hybrid' of two sick purebred dogs, there's no vigor there. =P
Problem is, most people don't even know anything about dog health, or what makes an animal breeder 'reputable'. That is how all these greedy BYBs, puppy websites, and mills stay in business. 

'Designer dogs' were started as a fad, as a way to repackage mutts as something sellers could charge top dollar for (with the exception of Labradoodles). Does that mean there _aren't_ ethical 'hybrid' breeders out there, who may have a higher vision for their dogs' future? No. But it _does_ mean they are given a bad name_ by the very nature of how 'designer breeds' were invented_, and it makes them have to work twice as hard to be taken seriously by anyone. That's just reality. They have to accept that when they choose to start breeding 'hybrids'.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/whtzbred.html#dev This is an interesting site on the development of breeds.

If someone/s wish to develop a new breed whether it be Puggles, Cockapoos or anything else they should do it in the right way. And if they don't, if they just continue breeding breed x to breed y and selling the pups as xy's then they are nothing but byb or puppymill breeders who are duping ignorant people into purchasing a mutt often for more $$$ than a good quality purebred would go for.

Developing a new breed takes, time, effort, dedication, and a willingness to make hard choices. It takes a group of people who create a breed standard for their new breed, who have a purpose in mind for the new breed, and who carefully and judiciously choose the breeds and the individual dogs they will use based on pedigrees, health tests and just what that dog or breed will contribute to the new breed. A couple breeds that have been developed recently and who have or are working towards recognition by a reputable kennel club are the Kyi-Leo and the Shiloh Shepherd.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

skelaki said:


> http://www.canismajor.com/dog/whtzbred.html#dev This is an interesting site on the development of breeds.
> 
> If someone/s wish to develop a new breed whether it be Puggles, Cockapoos or anything else they should do it in the right way. And if they don't, if they just continue breeding breed x to breed y and selling the pups as xy's then they are nothing but byb or puppymill breeders who are duping ignorant people into purchasing a mutt often for more $$$ than a good quality purebred would go for.
> 
> Developing a new breed takes, time, effort, dedication, and a willingness to make hard choices. It takes a group of people who create a breed standard for their new breed, who have a purpose in mind for the new breed, and who carefully and judiciously choose the breeds and the individual dogs they will use based on pedigrees, health tests and just what that dog or breed will contribute to the new breed. A couple breeds that have been developed recently and who have or are working towards recognition by a reputable kennel club are the Kyi-Leo and the Shiloh Shepherd.


Puggles, cookapoos, etc. are not attempts to make new breeds. They are making hybrids, which is what the people who buy them want. Hybrids are far better companions dogs then any new breed might be created.
It is the attempt to breed to a standard that has ruined so many dogs.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> Hybrids are far better companions dogs then any new breed might be created.


I'm curious to know: how so?


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

It really bothers me that people say things like "ALL purebred dogs started off by the mixing of dogs to begin with so arent ALL dogs mixes of some sort?"

And then dont listen to people when they say, "The purebred you know today were made for a PURPOSE. They pull sleds, they hunt rabbits... what PURPOSE does your doodle-poo have?"

"Companionship."

I can show you MILLIONS of dogs being put down because nobody wanted to be their companion.

I think the creatin of all dogs is wrong until the shelters arent so full. I also wasnt born last night and I know that A. That is impossible, and B. That isnt fair to the breeders that are breeding for A PURPOSE.

The beagle breeders who actually HUNT with their dogs. And DONT stand on a street corner willing to sell them to anyone.

The flatcoat breeders who take their dogs out and have them RETRIEVE, and DONT charge an arm and a leg when the dog doesnt even have it's first set of shots.

The lab breeder that is breeding show dogs, that are winning shows left and right and ISNT putting an ad in the newspaper to sell their puppies.

If I buy a purebred dog (dont count my last 2 because I was very uneducated then, and yes they are both from BYB's) I am going to ask you WHY you bred dog A to dog B. And if you can't back it up, you don't deserve to be a breeder.

Unfortunately for the doodle-poos, MOST of their breeders fall into that category IMHO.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Puggles, cookapoos, etc. are not attempts to make new breeds. They are making hybrids, which is what the people who buy them want. Hybrids are far better companions dogs then any new breed might be created.
> It is the attempt to breed to a standard that has ruined so many dogs.


 WHAT!???????


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Puggles, cookapoos, etc. are not attempts to make new breeds. They are making hybrids, which is what the people who buy them want. Hybrids are far better companions dogs then any new breed might be created.
> It is the attempt to breed to a standard that has ruined so many dogs.


you've got to be kidding. 

*The shelter is full of companion dogs*! We euthanise _6 million_ companion animals or more a year. That, my friend, is the real bottom line, to me. 


Think about it 6 million. Because there aren't enough homes. 

I think that we have a duty as the guardian of this species to pull our heads out, and _stop producing more and more companion dogs, when we are killing them daily._

Also why do you _insist_ on calling them _hybrids_ over and over in your posts when its been explained many times that they are not hybrids?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I am going to disagree slightly that companionship isn't a reason to breed dogs- it is. Most dogs these days are companions, not workers. I'd rather see someone buy a dog with a companion temperament than buy a leftover working dog that will have too much drive for them. In fact, my breed of choice is a companion breed and I think that is the most noble 'job' of all. A dog bred with companion as it's purpose will relate to people differently than one bred for a job. Not better for every person, but it is different as that is their whole being.

I don't see anything wrong with breeding a dog with companionship in mind foremost, but I wil still hold these breeders to very high standards, which is where 95% of the designer dog breeders fall flat on their faces. (Remember, we're talking all designer breeders, not just labradoodles but all the hundreds of random mixes too....) You can also assume most purebred breeders fall flat on their faces too but imo it's easier to find a good breeder for a purebred and it is also I think quite impossible for most of the mixes with a few exceptions. (labradoodles, cockapoos are a couple I can think of some decent enough breeders I've seen).

I think we should hold all breeders up to a good standard no matter what it is they breed. Health test, have a strict breeding program with a goal (don't breed any poodle with any other dog), be honest about the results (not every dog is going to be no-shed), preferably do something else with your dogs (even if it's just a CGC, or even therapy work would be nice for companions...), take back any dog you breed, sell on a spay/neuter contract, screen buyers well.... Then I'd have no problem with a designer dog breeder.

However, I don't agree that these designer dogs do a better job at it than purebreds or mutts, I have no idea how you came up with that. If the people are looking for specifics in a companion, then a purebred is the safest bet as far as knowing predictable traits. These doodle/poo/random designer dog mixes may be great companion dogs but they don't have the predictability a well bred purebred will have.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

im not saying there is anything wrong with breeding companion dogs. I agree that too many people end up with working dogs they don't need or can't handle.


My complaint is that "hybrid" breeders act like there is a *need* to create more companion dog "breeds". Like theres a huge shortage or som'thing. There is no shortage of real companion purebreds, or companion breed mutts and they need that pounded into their skulls it seems.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

I am going to get flamed for this, but I have kept my mouth shut in this thread long enough. I have seen far too many dogs put down in my line of rescue work to keep my mouth shut. So here goes.

Cockapoo's, Labradoodles, and every other poo and oodle are nothing but MIXED BRED MUTTS in a society that is already overrun with mutts and pure-breds alike. Own a Labradoodle? Great, I'm sure it's a nice dog. But to those who breed them, whether they are 'good' breeders or not, are producing mixed breed dogs, in a society that doesn't even have room for pure-bred dogs, for a profit and in an attempt to create yet another new breed that 20 years from now will be stuck in shelters just like all the rest.

For the LIFE OF ME, I cannot fathom or even wrap my head around why anyone would want to breed. With the exception of rare breeds, or champion show dogs, there is just no sense. This is my opinion. And I've heard the improving the breed standard talk, but I still will never understand.

Not when I see people breeding Black Labs to "improve the standard" while I watch pure bred black labs be put down constantly because no one wants a black dog. Even if you are trying to "improve the breed standard", you are creating 6-8 puppies each time those dogs are bred. Those dogs go to 6-8 homes, and take the chance away from 6-8 pure-bred shelter dogs that could've been saved.

Guess what? I've seen pure bred labradoodles at the shelter, and even seen them get euthanized due to lack of space. No breed is immune to euthanasia anymore, because HUMANS have caused the over-population of dogs and cats by making excuses to breeding, on top of other reasons.

I met a guy in the pet store earlier who had an AKC Spitz that he wanted to breed. I asked why and he said, "Not a breed you see everyday, I figured it would be cool to breed her." I wanted to slap him.

I'm getting a little warm now, must be all those flames heading my way. I better go grab a cool water bottle.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

you wont get any fire from me hun, I agree with most of what you had to say. 

Since your going to get flamed we might as well go down together.

People care entirely *tooo muc**h* about dog breeds. Im sorry, thats how i feel. 

These are man made creatures. _It will not be the end of the flipping world if these breeds disapear_. Life will go on, i promise you.

I swear some people act like they are saving the whales when they talk about improving or saving a breed. Seriously people, we are killing millions of dogs and I for one will have no part of it.

Ok now we can wait for it...


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

*Hands Criosphynx a cold beverage*


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

Hey you two.... 

IMO I think there should be a moratorium on the breeding all dogs and cats until the current animal population problem is under control.  

Although I realize this is a totally unrealistic solution, it certainly would go along way toward solving the present over population problem.

Let the flames begin.


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## zannie (Mar 12, 2008)

MyRescueCrew said:


> I am going to get flamed for this, but I have kept my mouth shut in this thread long enough. I have seen far too many dogs put down in my line of rescue work to keep my mouth shut. So here goes.
> 
> Cockapoo's, Labradoodles, and every other poo and oodle are nothing but MIXED BRED MUTTS in a society that is already overrun with mutts and pure-breds alike. Own a Labradoodle? Great, I'm sure it's a nice dog. But to those who breed them, whether they are 'good' breeders or not, are producing mixed breed dogs, in a society that doesn't even have room for pure-bred dogs, for a profit and in an attempt to create yet another new breed that 20 years from now will be stuck in shelters just like all the rest.
> 
> ...


 very well said you have a great passion on this topic i wish more people did


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> im not saying there is anything wrong with breeding companion dogs. *I agree that too many people end up with working dogs they don't need or can't handle*.
> 
> 
> My complaint is that "hybrid" breeders *act like there is a need to create more companion dog "breeds". *Like theres a huge shortage or som'thing. There is no shortage of real companion purebreds, or companion breed mutts and they need that pounded into their skulls it seems.


I agree too with you and Laurelin. A companion dog is fine, but there are TONS of them already that need homes!



Cris and Rescue.... you guys summed it up PERFECTLY for me. I agree that purebred breeders shouldnt breed either, but its not fair for them to have to stop because of the STUPIDITY of mutt breeders. IMO


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> I agree too with you and Laurelin. A companion dog is fine, but there are TONS of them already that need homes!
> 
> 
> 
> Cris and Rescue.... you guys summed it up PERFECTLY for me. *I agree that purebred breeders shouldnt breed either, but its not fair for them to have to stop because of the STUPIDITY of mutt breeders. * IMO



see thats the catch isn't it?? No one wants to stop because of others, and we can't realistically ask them to stop. 

That said i'd rather see someone dive headfirst into rescue instead or headfirst into breeding showdogs. 

But i can't hold it against the breeders for doing what they want. Im doing what i want after all. But on many levels i just feel its silly to keep creating more and more dogs


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## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

MyRescueCrew said:


> I am going to get flamed for this, but I have kept my mouth shut in this thread long enough. I have seen far too many dogs put down in my line of rescue work to keep my mouth shut. So here goes.
> 
> Cockapoo's, Labradoodles, and every other poo and oodle are nothing but MIXED BRED MUTTS in a society that is already overrun with mutts and pure-breds alike. Own a Labradoodle? Great, I'm sure it's a nice dog. But to those who breed them, whether they are 'good' breeders or not, are producing mixed breed dogs, in a society that doesn't even have room for pure-bred dogs, for a profit and in an attempt to create yet another new breed that 20 years from now will be stuck in shelters just like all the rest.
> 
> ...


Nothing to get flamed for - well thought out post except for this error: *pure bred labradoodles*


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