# Well Bred vs BYB



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i think it would kind of fun to do a little show and tell.

Post side by side examples of well bred specimens of your breed of choice vs BYB specimens. 

American Pit Bull Terrier


















which is which?

post your breed.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

1st- wellbred, the way a APBT is supposed to look. 
2nd- looking more Amstaffy


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Good topic, Zim.

Well bred
Frankie Anrebri









Backyard/Poorly bred
AKC registered German Shepherd









Well bred
Puck vom Grafental









Backyard/Poorly bred
AKC registered German Shepherd


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I was TOTALLY going to post Frankie, and you beat me too it!


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

That golden mammoth is supposed to be a GSD????


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Xeph - Haha, you know I absolutely love Frankie. He is one hell of a dog - looks AND works like a German Shepherd should. That's well bred.

Locke - Don'tcha know? That's one of those "old fashioned" oversized German Shepherds! 
It doesn't look anything like a GSD should to me, either. Goes to show AKC registration isn't everything.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Ch. Barisse High Frequency:










Jonas (sorry my little hot dog!):


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I tried to quote but after quoting and typing a response, a box came up saying my response was too short. Huh? Anyway, that big "GSD" photo, my son said that looks like a photoshopped picture. Don't know if it is or not but it's huge!


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

TWAB - that last picture of Jonas is priceless. What a face!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Correct MooMoosMommy. the top dog is ADBA/UKC Dual Grch Persephone of Matrix.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Well bred: 

Ch K-Run's Park Me In First









BYB:


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

The first two.... .Well Bred. AOM Ch Call Me Work N Some Magic aka Merlin (my dog)



















Poorly bred dogs


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Forgive me for the over-kill of examples... I ADORE the well bred Great Danes, and I just ugh... cant stand the BYB Danes. Sigh some even COMPLETELY LACKING in breed type. So sad how people will continue to poison my heart breed.

Well Bred <3 <3

Fawn
Multi. BISS CH. Mavro Cast A Spell on Derby N Shady Crk, AOM, CGC, CHIC









Brindle









These two are just pups at 9 months old... out of a breeder friend of mine in TN.
Mantle
DaVinci's Ode To Joy V Skyridge - "Aria" 









Black
DaVinci's Barber Of Seville "Figaro"









And YUCK YUCK YUCK... Found all these train wrecks on hoobly classifieds and nextdaypets.com ugh! Sad to know people pay $800-$2000 for pups out of these dogs.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Not hard to tell which one is which here


















I just want to point out that my problem with BYB goes far beyond the looks of a dog. Poor Oliver is the worst example of a Rottweiler that I have ever owned. The person who bred him, continues to make more like him. He has suffered greatly because of his poor breeding and genetic weakness. Not to mention the fact that this unscrupulous person sold him to someone that would abuse him to the point of him almost needing to be put to sleep by 5 months old.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

CH. Windogo's Wild At Heart "Secret" 









CH. Shalako's Perfection at Zydeco









CH. Shalako's FireWire (I love the look of her dogs)


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> Black
> DaVinci's Barber Of Seville "Figaro"


O. M. G. he's GORGEOUS! /drool


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

upendi'smommy said:


> CH. Windogo's Wild At Heart "Secret"


Wow, the second one looks like Shug. I didn't think I could see the Aussie in her (Aussie/Springer mix) but that's it. Except her tail isn't docked. Is the contrast completely a matter of breeding or is some of that a difference in grooming?


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Wow, the second one looks like Shug. I didn't think I could see the Aussie in her (Aussie/Springer mix) but that's it. Except her tail isn't docked. Is the contrast completely a matter of breeding or is some of that a difference in grooming?


That is an AKC registered aussie, that hasn't been groomed short. It's just really lacking coat.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Poorly bred dogs


Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain what is so wrong with this dog?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

crzy_brunette77 said:


> Well bred:
> 
> Ch K-Run's Park Me In First
> 
> ...


That poor second dog is so fat it has rolls over it's shoulders and hips. Poor baby.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CoverTune said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain what is so wrong with this dog?


I was going to ask that one, too. I could see the faults in the others but that one looks fine to me. Similar to Merlin to my eyes. I'm sure I'm missing some fine point somewhere, though.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I personally think this is a very nice dog:









Sorry Basil...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Inga said:


> I just want to point out that my problem with BYB goes far beyond the looks of a dog. Poor Oliver is the worst example of a Rottweiler that I have ever owned. The person who bred him, continues to make more like him. He has suffered greatly because of his poor breeding and genetic weakness. Not to mention the fact that this unscrupulous person sold him to someone that would abuse him to the point of him almost needing to be put to sleep by 5 months old.


oh i know Inga, the point of my posting this was more along the lines of giving people an idea of what a well bred dog looks like. People looking to buy from a breeder should be able to discern what a well bred animal looks like..best visual aid i can think of for that is to place the well bred dog next to the poorly bred one.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Do the BYB dogs have to have physical problems/faults?

If not, I'd post Wally - but he has no faults as best as I can tell from the Coton standard for size, body type, color, etc. His temperament is off (no dog should be fearful) but physically speaking, he conforms.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

KBLover said:


> Do the BYB dogs have to have physical problems/faults?
> 
> If not, I'd post Wally - but he has no faults as best as I can tell from the Coton standard for size, body type, color, etc. His temperament is off (no dog should be fearful) but physically speaking, he conforms.


I think there's more "wrong" with Basil than his physical appearance. He has severe Separation Anxiety and is anxious in many more situations, too. Definitely not healthy. I think poor temperament counts, too


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well bred working line, Branko Salztalblick









Well bred German show line, Jaguar von der Mausespitz









Well bred American show line, Altana's Mystique









BYB dog


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

QuidditchGirl said:


> TWAB - that last picture of Jonas is priceless. What a face!


LOL thank you! He may be an ugly duckling, but to me he is just so darn cute. I take the camera out and he gets an inch away from it like that.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Do the BYB dogs have to have physical problems/faults?
> 
> If not, I'd post Wally - but he has no faults as best as I can tell from the Coton standard for size, body type, color, etc. His temperament is off (no dog should be fearful) but physically speaking, he conforms.


no physical appearance is only one factor. but its a good starting point for weeding out the good breeders from the bad.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

BYBs may not only produce poor physical appearances, but severely unsound dogs. Most of you know Jonas is a wreck and he is from a very shoddy BYB. When I contacted her to let her know I had one of her dogs (didn't even know he ended up in a KILL SHELTER and then was moved a state away) she immediately tried to sell me his mother or sister. His mother had also attacked and ripped the ear off his adult sister. No thanks. Not to mention when I explained he had PRA she said "Oh, his father is blind too!" Uh.. huh?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


>


that is one of the ugliest fronts I have ever seen on an ACD!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CoverTune said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain what is so wrong with this dog?


It is not terrible. But it has some issues. It is weak in the rear, muzzle is a bit pointy, it has bug eyes, a bit long in the body.



Keechak said:


> that is one of the ugliest fronts I have ever seen on an ACD!


yea the front ain't so nice either.....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hehe, I guess I can see the bug eyes now. But I don't know anything about fronts or rears or anything like that. I saw the pointy muzzle but thought that maybe it was a female.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Hehe, I guess I can see the bug eyes now. But I don't know anything about fronts or rears or anything like that. I saw the pointy muzzle but thought that maybe it was a female.


It is a bitch I believe. But she still has a weak head and bug eyes. This is a photo of a bitch I am handling. Call Me Sweet Baby Jane aka Betty. She is right at six months old at the time of this photo. Notice the strong muzzle and eyes.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

I think this is a pretty nice bitch, it's hard to tell with the continental, but she's got nice feet, good pigment, nice tuck up, her tail set could be better, but overall well bred girl (that said, I have no idea who's dog this is, or if she's had any health testing, but her LOOKS are great)









Very poorly bred standard...bad pigment (didn't hold colour), too long in the body (should be square), bad feet (can't see them though), bad coat (too soft), loose eyes, poor tuck up, muzzle is snipey, hip dysplasia, and epilepsy...but he's all mine and I love him


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no physical appearance is only one factor. but its a good starting point for weeding out the good breeders from the bad.


Completely agree... 
Nessa


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Nargle said:


> I personally think this is a very nice dog:


Hahaha! That's Mia's daddy, Flash!  (Did you know that when you picked him?)

I agree he's very nice. Though he's a bit snipey in the head.... So is Mia.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> O. M. G. he's GORGEOUS! /drool


Ooh! He sure is!!! OMG I LOVE Figaro... the litter he was out of was just a pure success and he is just stunning. I cant wait to see him fully matured. His brother is a stunner as well <3 handsome harl!
Nessa


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here's some of my favorites:

I love this bitch, especially her coat length (young here though). She's so moderate.










Prince is one of my faves (he's Flash's brother and imo nicer than Flash):










Flash and Prince's dad and Mia's grandad is also a fave:










And here's my friend's Jake :










Gherkin:










Tucker:










Poorly bred paps vary a lot from being way way undersized like Gherkin (who is less than 3 lbs) to Tucker who was larger than my shelties. Also, there's a LOT of variety in well bred papillon lines too. Our breed standard is pretty open for personal preferences. Some are much more cobby and some much heavier coated than these. I personally like papillons leaner and lankier.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Google Search Well Bred:









My BYB PITA (Things you can't see include an underbite, too tight of a tail curl, weak immune system, frequent UTI, little-to-no working drive) Sorry, it's not the greatest stand, but thats the best I can do with her by myself:








Here's where her tail usually is when she's moving about:









Google Search:









Ami's face:









Ami's a lot more "masculine" looking. She's around 24 inches at the shoulder, has the wider face and a poor (low) ear set. Honestly, I've thought for a while there might be malamute in her distant background somewhere, but she's UKC registered (her dad was AKC, but mom was only UKC). But I guess enough back yard breeding could change a lot about the way dogs look....

great thread idea


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I think there's more "wrong" with Basil than his physical appearance. He has severe Separation Anxiety and is anxious in many more situations, too. Definitely not healthy. I think poor temperament counts, too


Well, I agree - but you (typically) can't take a picture of temperament, unless the dog was in that state. 

If this thread is about showing poor breeding via physical traits - then I shouldn't put Wally here because his problems aren't/weren't physical.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

*Well-bred (all these dogs are FCI or American CHs)*




































^ This guy's a tad leggy, but still stunning imo.









^ Ideal movement, the result of good structure.

*Poorly-bred:*














































The thickness of crest, socks, and tail plume a Crested has is irrelevant according to the Standard (and body hair can vary a LOT between individual dogs), but proper structure is not. It's very obvious when someone is breeding whatever naked dogs they can get together without caring about anything else -- they end up with very bald, very ugly dogs. I've heard that there are people who breed and cross Cresties especially for 'Ugly Dog' contests, so some of these are intentionally created to be as deformed as possible, which really makes me sad. Couple that with the teeth/eye/knee/skin problems a badly bred Crestie can have, and it just compounds the issue.

There are a lot of factors to balance when breeding Cresteds, more than with other hairless breeds, because there has to be balance between hairlessness + hair where it's wanted (and it doesn't help that the hairless gene is not 100% predictable), on top of correct structure and health. If you ignore any of those things, you quickly degenerate into either a pretty dog that has to be heavily shaved down (most show dogs nowadays), or a naturally hairless dog that's built like a trainwreck (most BYBs), or a dog somewhere in between with bad health/etc. Breeders that can achieve consistant balance in their lines are rare, and it takes a lot of effort on their part. The current Standard leaves room for personal taste, as well, so that's even more variety on top of everything else.

I find in general, most badly-bred Cresties have apple-heads, round buggy eyes, broken-down ears, bad toplines, snipey muzzles, and poor skin health. Even people who don't know all the various conformation terms can probably recognize the balanced structure of the CH dogs compared to the very 'cobbled together' look of the BYB ones.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't show dogs nor am I a breeder and I won't admit to which pictures I couldn't tell which were which


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And then in comparison...

These are my two shelties back when they were young. One was gotten from a sport/show breeder and one was gotten from a newspaper ad at 5 weeks. They lived similarly long lives with about the same amount of health problems. One of them had very severe temperament problems... and it was not the one that we got at 5 weeks old. 



















Together:










Just goes to show sometimes everything is a crapshoot.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

What does "snipey" mean, Laurelin?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Here's some of my favorites:
> 
> I love this bitch, especially her coat length (young here though). She's so moderate.
> 
> ...


How tall do you think Tucker is? His build reminds me a lot of Tag (lots of leg, lanky, and lean!), but Tags got more coat (Tag is 14 months).


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> What does "snipey" mean, Laurelin?


I think I meant snippy. (I wrote that at like... 2 am after 4th of july parties lol)

But his face is a bit long and narrow. Here's a pic that shows his long, skinny muzzle.










Here's Mia. They have the same profile:










That's really my only complaint with either of them. But papillon head type is much open to interpretation in our standard. There is a 1/3 muzzle length to skull length ratio so Mia and Flash are both a little long and unrefined in the snout.

I like this dog's head a lot:












LazyGRanch713 said:


> How tall do you think Tucker is? His build reminds me a lot of Tag (lots of leg, lanky, and lean!), but Tags got more coat (Tag is 14 months).


Well he was taller than my shelties at the time. The taller of them was 14 inches. He was a bit taller, probably near 15 inches. I've met a couple that size,in the 19-22 lb range. Jake is just nearly there too. He's a good boy but he has a terrible bite, I don't know if you can see it in that pic. He is very severely undershot.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I think I meant snippy. (I wrote that at like... 2 am after 4th of july parties lol)
> 
> But his face is a bit long and narrow. Here's a pic that shows his long, skinny muzzle.
> 
> ...


Tag is severely undershot, too. It's his only downfall 



Laurelin said:


> That's really my only complaint with either of them. But papillon head type is much open to interpretation in our standard. There is a 1/3 muzzle length to skull length ratio so Mia and Flash are both a little long and unrefined in the snout.
> 
> I like this dog's head a lot:


Oh, me too!!! Gorgeous...


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Here's some BYB AKC/CKC Yorkshire Terriers (ALL found on Kijiji up for stud service may I mention!!):

























And here's some well bred dogs:
Ch. Jeni-Lane's Jump-Start 








Notice how while the dog is small, he's not "teacup" or ridiculously tiny like many seen nowadays

BISS Champion Rhapsody's Tea Time Tales









And one from the Westminister website:


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Tag is severely undershot, too. It's his only downfall
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, me too!!! Gorgeous...


Yeah I notice for some reason badly bred paps really tend to go undershot very fast. I would say over half the byb/rescue paps I know are undershot to some extent. 

I love that girl too. Perfect balance of refinement and moderation imo.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Here's some of the REALLY AWFUL "pit bulls"


























Here are some more excellent specimens


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Argh I know that first "Pit" picture too well. I've had half a dozen people show that to me and say "This is exactly what I want can you find one?" Sigh. Yes. Animal control has a million of that very dog.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Argh I know that first "Pit" picture too well. I've had half a dozen people show that to me and say "This is exactly what I want can you find one?" Sigh. Yes. Animal control has a million of that very dog.


i want the Black dog lol.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Argh I know that first "Pit" picture too well. I've had half a dozen people show that to me and say "This is exactly what I want can you find one?" Sigh. Yes. Animal control has a million of that very dog.


Ugh, really? I was just about to post how sad that first picture was, it looks like the dog can barely stand.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Ugh, really? I was just about to post how sad that first picture was, it looks like the dog can barely stand.



what's really sad is that is Whopper. an entire bloodline was based on him. *shudders*


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Ugh, really? I was just about to post how sad that first picture was, it looks like the dog can barely stand.


Yes. That is apparently ideal to some of the folks I know. The blue dog is what my boyfriend's cousin is gunning for, but thankfully he was very receptive to my reasoning about getting a well bred, structurally sound dog and how they do NOT look like that. I will save that black pup and show him as a good example. I'm not well versed in APBTs, but I'd like to point him in a better direction. He kept talking about how the only breeder he liked that he could find was in California and it would cost him over 2 grand to get the pup here. I was like "Uh.. what?"


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Yes. That is apparently ideal to some of the folks I know. The blue dog is what my boyfriend's cousin is gunning for, but thankfully he was very receptive to my reasoning about getting a well bred, structurally sound dog and how they do NOT look like that. I will save that black pup and show him as a good example. I'm not well versed in APBTs, but I'd like to point him in a better direction. He kept talking about how the only breeder he liked that he could find was in California and it would cost him over 2 grand to get the pup here. I was like "Uh.. what?"


the black dog is Carrigan's Passion. If you need info on pits to pass along...hit me up.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Hahaha! That's Mia's daddy, Flash!  (Did you know that when you picked him?)
> 
> I agree he's very nice. Though he's a bit snipey in the head.... So is Mia.


I thought he was related to Mia but I didn't realize he was her dad! 



Laurelin said:


> Yeah I notice for some reason badly bred paps really tend to go undershot very fast. I would say over half the byb/rescue paps I know are undershot to some extent.
> 
> I love that girl too. Perfect balance of refinement and moderation imo.


I had no idea that underbites were so common among poorly bred Papillons! When I found out that Basil had an underbite, I was really surprised, lol! It's very slight and you can only tell if you pull open his lips and look at his teeth. 

Also that photo you posted of the dog's head you like is beautiful


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the black dog is Carrigan's Passion. If you need info on pits to pass along...hit me up.


I was going to.  He's a very nice guy and is looking for a pup largely for good reasons and it's all about directing to a good breeder. The only thing I am pretty iffy on is his desire to breed, but he was very receptive to the idea of a mentoring program and has contacted my boyfriend A LOT to ask questions for me, so I think I'm talking to someone who is legitimately willing to follow through. 

I am a bit of a slouch though. He's in no hurry, but he sent me a link to an Integrity Kennel in Michigan I have not looked at yet.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I was going to.  He's a very nice guy and is looking for a pup largely for good reasons and it's all about directing to a good breeder. The only thing I am pretty iffy on is his desire to breed, but he was very receptive to the idea of a mentoring program and has contacted my boyfriend A LOT to ask questions for me, so I think I'm talking to someone who is legitimately willing to follow through.
> 
> I am a bit of a slouch though. He's in no hurry, but he sent me a link to an Integrity Kennel in Michigan I have not looked at yet.


I know Integrity has some blood out of Larum...

specifically this guy









who is not bad..but his head type is ick and his chest is overdone IMO. i havent really looked at the rest of their dogs though....


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I think they have two of three studs I glanced at, but did not like any of them.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the black dog is Carrigan's Passion. If you need info on pits to pass along...hit me up.


O/T But I REALLY like Caragan's dogs.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> what's really sad is that is Whopper. an entire bloodline was based on him. *shudders*


He looks like a mastiff. 
Are Pits BYBs like, steroid-obsessed bodybuilder types or something? Because their dogs really look like that a lot of the time.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pai said:


> *Well-bred (all these dogs are FCI or American CHs)*



Those Well-bred Cresteds reminded me of why I used to want one when I first saw them on a Westminster show on TV. I loved the hair on their head, tails, and paws only and thought it was a very unique look. That's a natural look? I.e. not groomed like Poodles?

The leggy one you posted is absolutely striking. That's the one I like the most I think. Between him and CH Crestline Butters Scotch. One of those two is my favorite of the well-bred ones.

Also, even I could see the difference in the body shape between the poor bred and well bred ones. I don't know the Crested standard, but the BYB one don't even LOOK like sound dogs, structure-wise.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I think they have two of three studs I glanced at, but did not like any of them.


got a breeder for you in Flint. Pming you the link.



MissMutt said:


> O/T But I REALLY like Caragan's dogs.


GRRR...i always do that.

there is a Caragan Kennel and a Carrigan Kennel. bleh. its Caragan's Passion. thank you.



Pai said:


> He looks like a mastiff.
> Are Pits BYBs like, steroid-obsessed bodybuilder types or something? Because their dogs really look like that a lot of the time.


yeah pretty much.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> GRRR...i always do that.
> 
> there is a Caragan Kennel and a Carrigan Kennel. bleh. its Caragan's Passion. thank you.



Yah.. at first I was like, hm, is it the same one I'm thinking of? Then I went to the site and looked and saw her there..

Now Zim.. question.. they say that they breed Red Nose pits.. isn't that a big no-no for a breeder to say? I meant to ask you about this breeder awhile ago when I was browsing their site.. you can PM me if you think that's more appropriate

Oh and I really really really love the look of this bitch, whom Caragan bred..


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Yah.. at first I was like, hm, is it the same one I'm thinking of? Then I went to the site and looked and saw her there..
> 
> Now Zim.. question.. they say that they breed Red Nose pits.. isn't that a big no-no for a breeder to say? I meant to ask you about this breeder awhile ago when I was browsing their site.. you can PM me if you think that's more appropriate
> 
> Oh and I really really really love the look of this bitch, whom Caragan bred..


that bitch has a bad head..really bad overdone musculature...and a not so nice chest..otherwise she's decent

no Red Nose is a little different because its not a reference to color. OFRN stands for "Old Family Red Nose" which is the name of a bloodline...so when a breeder says rednose..if they arent a BYB..they arent talking about a specifically red nosed dog...they are talking about a dog bred from that specific bloodline.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> that bitch has a bad head..really bad overdone musculature...and a not so nice chest..otherwise she's decent
> 
> no Red Nose is a little different because its not a reference to color. OFRN stands for "Old Family Red Nose" which is the name of a bloodline...so when a breeder says rednose..if they arent a BYB..they arent talking about a specifically red nosed dog...they are talking about a dog bred from that specific bloodline.


Gotcha. That makes sense.

Yeah, I did notice that Caragan's dogs varied a lot in head structure. Many of them I don't like - I did recognize that this bitch has a beefy head but I think she's a nice package overall. Of course, I don't know all that much..


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> Those Well-bred Cresteds reminded me of why I used to want one when I first saw them on a Westminster show on TV. I loved the hair on their head, tails, and paws only and thought it was a very unique look. That's a natural look? I.e. not groomed like Poodles?


A lot of the ones you see on the TV shows are very hairy. It's a big issue with the breed nowadays. The leggy dog is a true hairless (also the gaiting dog); there are people that still breed them but they are harder to win with in shows since they don't look as flashy or have such thick crests and socks. A dog like this (also a CH) has to be shaved into the hairless pattern: 










Compare the amount of hair to another nice true hairless:










Butters probably has some body hair (a lot of dogs have some peach fuzz on their backs/legs), but nowhere near the first dog above, who's basically coated. 20 years ago true hairlesses were the norm, but not so much anymore, sadly.

A general rule of thumb is, the bigger/thicker the socks, the more body hair a dog has. True hairlesses generally have smaller 'furnishings', but a natural dog is much prettier to me, personally. They are also what the breed standards describe.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Some well bred, light coloured goldens:















Some not well bred backyard/puppymill style, marketed as 'rare english creme' goldens:


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Okay, these three I've been looking at off and on for about 3 years now, when I first started looking at them I thought they were gorgeous. But now I'm not so sure. The Second Female is named Liesl and as far as I can tell only has her CGC but has all her health tests. The male is shutzhund, but is no longer a part of her breeding program, due to a twisted stomach and the resaulting surgery causing him to become Steril. And the Last Female, Verene, I belive has had 3 litters in 3 years I think, I could be wrong I can't remember its been awhile sense I've followed the breeders site. I guess my Question is, what do you think of them, bad example or good example? I already have an opinion.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is not terrible. But it has some issues. It is weak in the rear, muzzle is a bit pointy, it has bug eyes, a bit long in the body.
> 
> 
> 
> yea the front ain't so nice either.....


Yeah, I was going to say weak head, muzzle is snipey and the stop is lacking and the chest is a bit shallow. I don't know much about ACD's but I could see the head wasn't 'right' on the dog.












That dog looks like a shaved down leggy Yorkshire terrier!!!!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Deron_Dog, those are not well bred dogs. Super BYB. The dogs have singular good dogs behind them, but were bred together with no thought.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Deron_dog said:


> Okay, these three I've been looking at off and on for about 3 years now, when I first started looking at them I thought they were gorgeous. But now I'm not so sure. The Second Female is named Liesl and as far as I can tell only has her CGC but has all her health tests. The male is shutzhund, but is no longer a part of her breeding program, due to a twisted stomach and the resaulting surgery causing him to become Steril. And the Last Female, Verene, I belive has had 3 litters in 3 years I think, I could be wrong I can't remember its been awhile sense I've followed the breeders site. I guess my Question is, what do you think of them, bad example or good example? I already have an opinion.


Okay, these three I've been looking at off and on for about 3 years now, when I first started looking at them I thought they were gorgeous. But now I'm not so sure. The Second Female is named Liesl and as far as I can tell only has her CGC but has all her health tests. The male is shutzhund, but is no longer a part of her breeding program, due to a twisted stomach and the resaulting surgery causing him to become Steril. And the Last Female, Verene, I belive has had 3 litters in 3 years I think, I could be wrong I can't remember its been awhile sense I've followed the breeders site. I guess my Question is, what do you think of them, bad example or good example? I already have an opinion.[/QUOTE]


I like the male the best. He's got a level topline and OMG I love his head. Jowls looks a little loose (and it's more noticable on other pictures of him). But he looks very in proportion with himself.
I don't like the first female at all. Her topline rises over the loin, and something about her front looks REALLY off.
The second female looks alright.

I think these are well-bred dogs, but not breeding-worthy dogs. Not with the health problems and lack of titles (correct me if I'm wrong, but a BH doesn't mean much I think).


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Deron_Dog, those are not well bred dogs. Super BYB. The dogs have singular good dogs behind them, but were bred together with no thought.


Thanks Xeph, yeah I've sense moved away from this breeder all together, there was something about her that bothered me a lot. I just didn't know what it really was. I'm not that well educated yet in what would be a good breeder for GSD's but I'm doing my research and learning, It won't be for a few more years but I'm pretty sure that a well bred GSD is going to be my next dog.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> I think these are well-bred dogs, but not breeding-worthy dogs. Not with the health problems and lack of titles (correct me if I'm wrong, but a BH doesn't mean much I think).


Thank you for the distinction here. This thread title, then, is misleading (not that it was meant I don't think) as the posts seem to be about showing dogs that look breed worthy. 

I noted this earlier and was considering posting some photos of some well-bred mixes/mutts that I have known or know of, such as these guys.



















I could easily post a handful of pictures of my very well-bred mutts, some from the pound and some from other sources, that are obviously well-bred as reflected by their temperament traits, ability to do their job, health and longevity . . . . of course if only considering judging by phenotype it would be a different story. I personally wish that judgement by phenotype was not so encouraged.

Well-bred, and which criteria to judge that by, has different meanings to different people.

SOB


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Here here Spanial, I could post pictures of Wally and 4 of his 8 siblings I know where there at, and while 2 took on there mother's horendous structure and will probably not be SOUND dogs in the future, the other 2 Wally and his sister Jesse are both beautifully put together dogs in MOP.

Side Note: Wallys mother was a HORRIBLE Example of a Yellow Lab, I should post pictures of her.

Also, Chad my Boston Terrier came from long running Champion Blood lines, you should see his father in action BEAUTIFUL dog. Chad is so out of line, wrong body build, wrong head, wrong ears, Color's wrong, one blue eye....its amazing its like he got the throw back to everything that structurly could be wrong with Boston Terrier,s he has a tail even. And don't get me started on his temperment, he was bred by my mom, came from registered, champion blood lines and we've had him the hole time. and he is Dog Aggressive. (Same sex mainly)


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Another example of a byb dog. My question is this - it says on their website that her topline dropped due to her being ready to whelp, but it's the only picture of her on the site..... has anyone seen a dog's topline go that bad due to pregnancy or is that just scary?

Lana


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


>



I just wanted to say that I went into the grooming section a few days ago before work and all of the groomers and bathers were gushing about this "beautiful Pit" they had in the back. They were going on and on about him, and they took him out for me to see. He looked very similar to this dog. My heart instantly sank as I realized that every groomer in there would gladly support BYB and didn't even realize that this dog looks nothing like an American Pit Bull Terrier should. I commented on how it didn't look like a Pit to me, but more American Bullyish. They all said, "No, he's full Pit!" 

It saddens me, because well bred Pits are some of the most beautiful dogs in my eye.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Entwine said:


> I just wanted to say that I went into the grooming section a few days ago before work and all of the groomers and bathers were gushing about this "beautiful Pit" they had in the back. They were going on and on about him, and they took him out for me to see. He looked very similar to this dog. My heart instantly sank as I realized that every groomer in there would gladly support BYB and didn't even realize that this dog looks nothing like an American Pit Bull Terrier should. I commented on how it didn't look like a Pit to me, but more American Bullyish. They all said, "No, he's full Pit!"
> 
> It saddens me, because well bred Pits are some of the most beautiful dogs in my eye.


The thing is, most people wouldn't think of a well bred pit as being what they think or are used to a pit looking like - the one in the pictures is more what most people are used to seeing. Just like my show bred golden used to always get called a toller, because the byb's here have a lot of huge, red curly goldens.

Lana


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Bordermom said:


> The thing is, most people wouldn't think of a well bred pit as being what they think or are used to a pit looking like - the one in the pictures is more what most people are used to seeing. Just like my show bred golden used to always get called a toller, because the byb's here have a lot of huge, red curly goldens.
> 
> Lana


I know it. If someone walks into the store with a well bred Pit (RARELY happens), everyone asks what it is or if it's a Pit mix. I'm so sick of seeing the American Bullyesque dogs around here that are touted as Pit Bull Terriers. I find them extremely unappealing and can't see what the attraction is other than the look of "power".. When in reality, the dogs look almost disabled to me.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


>


*drools* I WANT!!!!! I want I want I want!!!! I normally do not find dark colored dogs beautiful but *drool* I'll take this one!

It really is sad that most people do not know the differences in Pit Bulls at all.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Bordermom said:


> View attachment 19962
> 
> Another example of a byb dog. My question is this - it says on their website that her topline dropped due to her being ready to whelp, but it's the only picture of her on the site..... has anyone seen a dog's topline go that bad due to pregnancy or is that just scary?
> 
> Lana


Pregnancy can make a topline look funny but the only other time I've seen a picture of it (a before/after), it wasn't as extreme as the dog in your picture.



> They all said, "No, he's full Pit!"


Many of the dogs in 'Ugly Dog' contests are 'purebred Chinese Cresteds' too. People don't know that there's a _difference _between 'well-bred' and 'purebred', they think the two terms mean the same thing, but they don't.



> I noted this earlier and was considering posting some photos of some well-bred mixes/mutts that I have known or know of, such as these guys.


See, purpose bred dogs are, to me, very similar to 'purebreds'. They may be technically mixes, but their breeders still breed to a certain standard (ability/working standards are equal to physical conformation, in my opinion), and they keep records and pedigrees just the same. I wouldn't call such dogs 'mutts', since the word mutt brings to my mind a picture of an accident, or an aimless/random breeding, while sled dogs and other working crosses are very much NOT created aimlessly, and often are bred with the same care as any AKC-papered purebred.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Thank you for the distinction here. This thread title, then, is misleading (not that it was meant I don't think) as the posts seem to be about showing dogs that look breed worthy.
> 
> Well-bred, and which criteria to judge that by, has different meanings to different people.
> 
> SOB


Well said. 

My dog is well bred. Good lines, west German working, titled and health tested breeding stock throughout almost the entire pedigree. Well thought out line breedings (or lack thereof) and specific dogs added to balance out drive and aggression. Temperament and nerves to die for. 

...but, his conformation is crap. Why? His breeder, like many other working line breeders, doesn't breed for it. They breed for working and sport dogs with functional, but not necessarily correct, structure. And in that manner, many breeders are like backyard breeders in that they are not breeding for a conformation type. 

My dog's well bred, but not breeding worthy. But that's more due to drive and working ability than it is due to conformation. He's the low drive pet quality puppy of the litter, but that doesn't change the fact that he comes from a good breeder and out of good breeding stock.

Obviously, though, no reputable breeder of the breed is going to end up producing mammoth mastiff/bear-like German Shepherds, but it's still hard to judge well bred dogs vs. poorly bred dogs simply based off of a picture.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

*Well Bred*

WTCH FUCH NUCH CH Diamond Aire Fast Track (an all around great dog)(Hawk's great grand father still living)









WTCH Hangin Tree Dude (has attained every ASCA working title) believe it or not this guy's Sire was a product ofa merle to merle breeding AND Dude's Sire and Dam are a litter mate breeding

















SVCH WTCH HTCH CH Fly Away's Sky Marshall (a great body great movement and great instinct) (his head would look better if his handler had let him drop it a bit tho)









Here is one of the most striking aussies I have ever seen and one of my favorite examples of color. CH Howard's Wanagi-ishna Ghosteyes "Indy" and of course that beautiful ear set and carrage!









Lets throw in a little "Diamond Aire Pierce the Sun CGC" 










*Poorly bred examples*

VERY poor pigment









Nice body structure, those angles are pretty, a tad bit down in pastern and the ugliest head I have ever seen on an aussie compleate with bad ear carrage. (Sorry my darling but it's true)









(registered as an Australian Shpherd with the NSDR)









AKC Registered bitch


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

Well-bred Brittanies (Libby's parents are the 1st and 2nd photos, the 3rd is this year's Westminster Best of Group winner):























Ugly, BYB Britts:


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Yah.. at first I was like, hm, is it the same one I'm thinking of? Then I went to the site and looked and saw her there..
> 
> Now Zim.. question.. they say that they breed Red Nose pits.. isn't that a big no-no for a breeder to say? I meant to ask you about this breeder awhile ago when I was browsing their site.. you can PM me if you think that's more appropriate
> 
> Oh and I really really really love the look of this bitch, whom Caragan bred..



That is a striking dog


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

I think this is more of a personal preference on type, but Labs (English) 
CH ****ENDALL BUCKSTONE THUNDERSTRUCK
















And (American)


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Great thread, and yay for FINALLY being able to log on!  I've been getting virus warnings from Firefox all week whenever I tried to log on.

Here are my examples:

Well bred:

"MBIS, MBISS AM/ CAN Ch Xoe's Oscar De La Hoya"

























Poorly bred:








This fellow is being used as a stud! **shudder**








As is this one. 









And....









Sorry Kuma. I love him to pieces, and I do think he's very handsome, but he's definitely not well bred. He doesn't come close to meeting the standard, but we've been very fortunate, and so far at least, he's very healthy. The breeder he came from wasn't the worst sort of BYB, but definitely not a reputable breeder, no health testing, didn't show, although the puppies were well taken care of and wonderfully socialized. I didn't have a choice, Kuma was a gift from my parents, and I wouldn't trade him for all the well-bred Pugs in the world, but I also would never go back to that breeder.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

I LOVE pugs! My mom was going to get one a few years ago, but couldn't find a pup (or young dog for that matter) that wasn't from a backyard breeder or was at least mostly sound. Its really sad how horrible most of the "studs" and "dams" were (especially temperament wise )  . Kuma is adorable btw!


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

OMG that first badly bred pug made me laugh and cry...


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

The one right above Kuma looks more like a totally shaved peke then a pug


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I love this guy! He's just a perfect little square.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Darkmoon said:


> *drools* I WANT!!!!! I want I want I want!!!! I normally do not find dark colored dogs beautiful but *drool* I'll take this one!


Passion's pretty isnt she? She has the best breed type out of all the dogs on that site imo. the others all have little small faults that throw them off for me. Passion doesnt really...nothing that detracts imo.




> It really is sad that most people do not know the differences in Pit Bulls at all.


very


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I love this guy! He's just a perfect little square.


Me too! He's from a breeder in Edmonton, AB, and when I'm finally ready for another Pug puppy, I'm so going to go to her! Love, love, love her dogs!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Me too! He's from a breeder in Edmonton, AB, and when I'm finally ready for another Pug puppy, I'm so going to go to her! Love, love, love her dogs!


There are no record of her dogs nor ancestors on OFA that I have found (pedigrees are on her site, I 've searched quite a few), so I'd be making sure to get assurances of the hip/patella/eye/heart health testing before you do. 

http://www.offa.org/search.html?action=new

SOB


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> There are no record of her dogs nor ancestors on OFA that I have found (pedigrees are on her site), so I'd be making sure to get assurances of the health testing before you do.


Well, of course, that goes without saying.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Nargle said:


> I thought he was related to Mia but I didn't realize he was her dad!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, that's her daddy! I like his structure, not too fond of his head but he's produced several really nice sports papillons which was my reasoning behind choosing Mia. 

I'm not sure about the underbites, it's just something I've noticed when looking at my friends' papillons. I've met a couple very slightly undershot papillons that were bred decently (aka with some thought put into things). But most the ones I know that weren't bred well are undershot. It seems to be maybe the first thing to go.

I agree though with SOB that a picture can't tell too much about the animal's breeding quality unless there's some MAJOR structural fault going on there. And even then well bred is subjective. And in my case with my shelties my well bred dog ended up having many more issues than my other. I understand the sentiment of the thread but I think a lot of times we like to oversimplify the well bred versus badly bred thing.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I agree though with SOB that a picture can't tell too much about the animal's breeding quality unless there's some MAJOR structural fault going on there. And even then well bred is subjective. And in my case with my shelties my well bred dog ended up having many more issues than my other. I understand the sentiment of the thread but I think a lot of times we like to oversimplify the well bred versus badly bred thing.


ok..again..

its just a good starting point. 

and in my particular breed...it can...because the standard is based on biomechanical physical principles. as in science. the correctly built pit bull will vastly outperform the incorrectly built pit bull any day of the week. because the correctly built pit bull is constructed with scientific principles in mind. energy conservation, better levers and fulcrums, optimal shock absorption, better functioning musculature etc etc...that's the reason why they are such amazing athletes...they're built to be...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Not saying it isn't a good place to start. I could make educated guesses on most papillons I see and probably be mostly right.

It's just... sometimes the stars align just right for people who aren't breeding with any purpose in mind. Likewise I've seen some really nice dogs throw pups that are really crappily put together.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I agree though with SOB that a picture can't tell too much about the animal's breeding quality unless there's some MAJOR structural fault going on there. And even then well bred is subjective. And in my case with my shelties my well bred dog ended up having many more issues than my other. I understand the sentiment of the thread but I think a lot of times we like to oversimplify the well bred versus badly bred thing.


Well, I think there's a difference between soundness and breed standards. I guess my definition of a well-bred dog is a sound dog. It's the difference between an underbite and a snipey muzzle. Does that make sense? It's very clear in my head but I'm having trouble finding the words to explain it.



Laurelin said:


> Not saying it isn't a good place to start. I could make educated guesses on most papillons I see and probably be mostly right.
> 
> It's just... sometimes the stars align just right for people who aren't breeding with any purpose in mind. Likewise I've seen some really nice dogs throw pups that are really crappily put together.


Like you said earlier, sometimes it's just a crapshoot!


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> This fellow is being used as a stud! **shudder**


Okay that pug is...Wow...BAD! The Color...is..WOW! (shakes head) I know my Ianto isn't show Quality thanks to some crop up white on his toes. (showed up recently) But he's pretty well put together if I do say so myself.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm sorry, but I love that Pug. He's killing me he's so ugly.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

TWAB, Oh no I think he's adorable, but the color is just BLAH to me, Its not Black its Not Fawn its...I don't know Chocolate??


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Its like he is roaning lol


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

YES! Exactly! he's Roaning! (giggles) He's cute though. But this pug is cuter IMO.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Is that your pug? VERY cute! Pugs are so adorable! My friend has a Bug (he looks like a pug but bigger, you can hardly see any Boston) and he is one of the best dogs I have ever met! I don't think I could deal with the constant shedding though lol


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Yes, that's my boy Ianto, he's up to standered completely till you see his white toes. His sister has white Chest markings and four white paws...I might have a pic here somewhere. lol. And if I remember correct a Bug is a mix between a Boston Terrier and a Pug, and those are darn cute.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Deron_dog said:


> TWAB, Oh no I think he's adorable, but the color is just BLAH to me, Its not Black its Not Fawn its...I don't know Chocolate??


I don't know what is up with DF, but it was a photo of that other Pug last night. That fat little black and white one that doesn't even look like a Pug. If I met him in a shelter I would assume he was a mutt.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

There are not really "BYB" Borzoi, Whippets, or Greyhounds. There are some damned ugly ones, though, with horrid structure and movement. They still win in the ring. My breeds the gene pool is too small for me to post pics without it being obvious whose dogs they are...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I am going to take this to another step.



















First, I am going to pick my dog apart. (any dog no matter how nice can be picked apart)

His ears are too big. But the carriage is correct and he has a large head so he manages to pull it off. He could use a little more chest and bone. He is big. In Standard but right there at the top. And his eyes are not perfect. Not bug eyed but I would like to see a little more almond shape.

But over all he has a lot going for him. He is balanced, moves like a dream, and carries off his size without being gross or overdone. 

His temperament is great. He is aloof and reserved with strangers as the breed should be. But he makes friends pretty fast. He has drive for days, confident (maybe a little overly so) never fearful, quirky, etc. You know what you are going to get with him.
A very solid dog. 

The last piece of the puzzle so to speak is he is also solid inside.
His only slight blemish is that he is a carrier for PRCD. He was out of an A to B Breeding. He is a B (carrier) Does not mean he should not be used. He just needs to breed to A Bitches. 
I see his best use to be bred to solid compact bitches with good bone and nice ears. 
CALL ME WORK N SOME MAGIC 
Registration: DN18471704 (AKC) Sire: DN11920106 
No photo on file 
Breed: AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG Dam: DL89094201 
Sex: M *Titles: 
Color: BLUE SPECKLED CHIC #: 58655 
Birthdate: May 28 2007 Addtl. Reg. # 
DNA Profile: 


OFA Number Registry Test/Film Date Report Date Age Final Conclusion 
ACD-PRA1244/3M-VPI-CAR PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY Sep 11 2007 Oct 16 2007 3 GENOTYPIC CARRIER FOR prcd-PRA 
ACD-CA66/24M/P-VPI CARDIAC Jun 2 2009 Jun 16 2009 24 NORMAL - PRACTITIONER 
ACD-PA42/24M/P-VPI PATELLA Jun 2 2009 Jun 16 2009 24 NORMAL - PRACTITIONER 
ACD-2433G24M-VPI HIPS Jun 2 2009 Jun 17 2009 24 GOOD 
ACD-EL565M24-VPI ELBOW Jun 2 2009 Jun 17 2009 24 NORMAL 
ACD-1893 CERF Jun 20 2009 Jun 20 2009 25 TESTED: 09 
ACD-BR332/25M-VPI BAER HEARING TEST Jul 7 2009 Jul 8 2009 25 HEARING (NORMAL)


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## Pointgold (Jul 4, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> There are not really "BYB" Borzoi, Whippets, or Greyhounds. There are some damned ugly ones, though, with horrid structure and movement. They still win in the ring. My breeds the gene pool is too small for me to post pics without it being obvious whose dogs they are...


Having shown many Borzoi, and working closely for ten years with a top breeder/AKC judge/BCOA and MidWest Borzoi Club past president/secretary (and attending several BCOA National Specialties) I will strongly disagree that there are not BYB Borzoi breeders. There are, and they are the primary reason that Borzoi rescue exists and is so active. BYB's have more than tripled in the last 10 or so years. The gene pool for US Borzoi is no longer small.
Whippets probably not so bad, and Greyhounds still have their issues with rescue, unfortunately still due to the racing industry. It has improved in many ways, but still exists.

My primary breed is Golden Retrievers. BYB Goldens are a dime a dozen. Probably a nickle a dozen...
Too many people believe that simply because they have an intact male or female, and there is a market, that they should breed them.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

First I just have to say that I LOVE Caragan's Black Passion... She is one of my all-time favorites<3 I also love Caragan's Steel Magnum, he is stunning to me! Anyways...

Well-Bred Labrador Retrievers:








(CH Keepsake Red Star Rising) (English Bench Lab)








(Am CH UCH SHR AGI Endeavor Piccadilly Gotta Wear Shades JH NAJ WC CGC TDI) (English/Bench Lab)







(Am CH UCH SHR AGI Endeavor Piccadilly Gotta Wear Shades JH NAJ WC CGC TDI) (English/Bench Lab)








(CAN BISS Piccadilly's Hidden Covey) (English/Bench Lab.. She is 16 months old)








(Intl CH WindyCanyon Patent Nfringement CD JH RA "Sonya" & WindyCanyon's Kiku A Fuji Too "Kiku") (American/Field Lab) (LOVE all of WindyCanyon dogs)

BYB Labrador Retriever:

























(all 3 of these are supposedly Labs, I know the owner)

And even... Harleigh. Sorry baby girl=D


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> First I just have to say that I LOVE Caragan's Black Passion... She is one of my all-time favorites<3 I also love Caragan's Steel Magnum, he is stunning to me! Anyways...
> 
> Well-Bred Labrador Retrievers:
> 
> ...


I'm trying my darndest, but just can't get past this.

What the hell has happened to Labs? I'm not fond of the new look and prefer the BYB Labs shown above all the ones that are labelled as 'well bred'. Just had three of my guests here have a look (havin' a dinner party) and they are of the same mind. Not a one could identify the top dogs as Labs - thought they were Lab/Newfie crosses or sometihing of that sort . . . .just sayin'.

SOB


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## Pointgold (Jul 4, 2010)

Bordermom said:


> View attachment 19962
> 
> Another example of a byb dog. My question is this - it says on their website that her topline dropped due to her being ready to whelp, but it's the only picture of her on the site..... has anyone seen a dog's topline go that bad due to pregnancy or is that just scary?
> 
> Lana


It's awful. Not one of my bitches has EVER lost a topline like that, even carrying 11 puppies. Either she has a horrific topline to begin with, or she was in _terrible_ condition when she was bred, or she's older and has litter after litter. Poor girl.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> I'm trying my darndest, but just can't get past this.
> 
> What the hell has happened to Labs? I'm not fond of the new look and prefer the BYB Labs shown above all the ones that are labelled as 'well bred'. Just had three of my guests here have a look (havin' a dinner party) and they are of the same mind. Not a one could identify the top dogs as Labs - thought they were Lab/Newfie crosses or sometihing of that sort . . . .just sayin'.
> 
> SOB


Once again, have to agree here. Let's face it, I'm not a fan of what many in the show ring hail as "well bred, breeding worthy German Shepherds", so I don't post any as "well bred". The American show line GSD Xeph posted is a nice looking dog, and I would see as "well bred".

But these Labs... they don't look like hunting dogs. Which is why I've always preferred field bred labs. Ethics aside, Harleigh looks much better, both aesthetically AND athletically.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Foyerhawk said:


> There are not really "BYB" Borzoi, Whippets, or Greyhounds. There are some damned ugly ones, though, with horrid structure and movement. They still win in the ring. My breeds the gene pool is too small for me to post pics without it being obvious whose dogs they are...


What happened to you being all about GSDs and Goldens?


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

bench labs just always look fat to me ... i like them more athletic and fit looking


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> I'm trying my darndest, but just can't get past this.
> 
> What the hell has happened to Labs? I'm not fond of the new look and prefer the BYB Labs shown above all the ones that are labelled as 'well bred'. Just had three of my guests here have a look (havin' a dinner party) and they are of the same mind. Not a one could identify the top dogs as Labs - thought they were Lab/Newfie crosses or sometihing of that sort . . . .just sayin'.
> 
> SOB


Guess thats where we differ  I prefer the well bred Labradors MUCH more than the BYB's.... Except for my Harleigh, she is my <3. She's all wrong for the standard, but I do love her to bits.

FWIW, just about everyone I know can tell that every single dog I posted is a Lab. Yeah, though some are extremely poorly bred (i.e. the ones on the bottom) they are still full Lab. Even the ones that your friends said looked like mixes, everyone else that I've showed those pictures to (or similar pictures) knew they were Labs.

What I won't disagree with you about is that some Labs are over-done today, not all English Labs are (including the ones I posted). That's just my opinion  Also, not let the bigger bones full ya... Most of those Labs are into the hunt scene 

I do agree, however, that I prefer a fit looking dog. Everyone says that Harleigh is to thin, but I just prefer them as thin as they can be and fight.

I actually PREFER well bred Field Labs (like WindyCanyons NOT the BYB's I posted (minus Harleigh again)) over English Labs. Just a preference, but I cannot deny that they (English Labs) are lookers. I hope to own a Fox Red English Lab someday because I just am in love with them <3

ETA for one other thing.

I was actually talking to Anne (WindyCanyon) asking her opinion on Harleigh (I plan to ILP her) and she said she actually looks better than most so called "well bred" Labradors today and that while she was a bit to tall for standard (26") just about everything else what okay. Not perfect by any means, but not horrid like some Labs out there.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> I'm trying my darndest, but just can't get past this.
> 
> What the hell has happened to Labs? I'm not fond of the new look and prefer the BYB Labs shown above all the ones that are labelled as 'well bred'. Just had three of my guests here have a look (havin' a dinner party) and they are of the same mind. Not a one could identify the top dogs as Labs - thought they were Lab/Newfie crosses or sometihing of that sort . . . .just sayin'.
> 
> SOB





Equinox said:


> Once again, have to agree here. Let's face it, I'm not a fan of what many in the show ring hail as "well bred, breeding worthy German Shepherds", so I don't post any as "well bred". The American show line GSD Xeph posted is a nice looking dog, and I would see as "well bred".
> 
> But these Labs... they don't look like hunting dogs. Which is why I've always preferred field bred labs. Ethics aside, Harleigh looks much better, both aesthetically AND athletically.


I agree... I cant get passed it either. I personally do not like the look of most Show bred labs. I just think they look so darned fat, they do not look like hunting dogs to me at all. I too prefer most field bred labs. 
Are all show bred labs fat looking? I would like to see a properly bred lab that does not look so fat, anyone know of some?
Nessa


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> I agree... I cant get passed it either. I personally do not like the look of most Show bred labs. I just think they look so darned fat, they do not look like hunting dogs to me at all. I too prefer most field bred labs.
> Are all show bred labs fat looking? I would like to see a properly bred lab that does not look so fat, anyone know of some?
> Nessa


To me, CH Salty Dog of Tampa Bay doesn't look "fat". Not sure if you'll agree, but he's probably one of the best looking Bench Labs. I'm not exactly sure why I didn't include him! Not sure if you'll agree, but to me he looks like he could go out and hunt as well as win some shows. He doesn't have to much bone, but not to little either. I can easily say that he is my favorite Lab right now.









































Not sure if thats what you are looking for, but like I said. He is probably my FAVORITE english/bench Lab out there.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

he is more appealing but i like seeing a bit more of a tuck ... but i agree ... i could see him doing both ...though his neck bothers me a bit ... it looks too fat haha .. i mean granted labs have that strong head to them .. .but still


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Miranda16 said:


> bench labs just always look fat to me ... i like them more athletic and fit looking


thats because they ARE fat. A friend of mine who shows labs says she keeps hers at about 15-20 pounds overweight because any leaner wouldn't look good in the ring. I told her I could never justify purposely making my dog obese and that there MUST be a few judges out there that feel the same way and she said "not enough judges"


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

What about NOC Tyler? Not a show bred Lab... but definitely well-bred.. I'll take him over ANY of the above dogs any day (and I've seen him work in person)


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Keechak said:


> thats because they ARE fat. I friend of mine who shows labs says she keeps hers at about 15-20 pounds overweight because any leaner wouldn't look good in the ring.


grrrr i dont like that


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Keechak said:


> thats because they ARE fat. A friend of mine who shows labs says she keeps hers at about 15-20 pounds overweight because any leaner wouldn't look good in the ring.


I know. That is one thing I absolutely HATE about them. I know of a few breeders that simply won't put on the weight, but most of them do and it drives me insane. I just wish they could go in there and win with what they actually LOOK like. Not what they look like with 10-20 pounds added on. 

That is one of the reasons I prefer Field Labs over English (though I do love a lot of the English Labs).


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

do they not realize that its unhealthy for their dog ... 

thats one thing about a lot (notice i say a lot and not all) of "show people" that i will never support or get .... they do whatever it takes to look good in the ring, no matter if it is at the expense of the animal ....


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

actually I think it's a "Few" and not a Lot. I have met very few people who show that are willing to put their dog in harms way or poor health to win. And it seems to depend on the breed. Obviously labs have quite a few more of those people compaired to, say, border terriers.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

point taken ... makes sense ... 
but even with the dogs that are supposed to be shown as naturally as possible there are people who try and change their dog so much to make them "fit the standard" that it may harm the dog more than help it you know ....


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Vizsla. While there isn't VERY many that are the subject of BYB's, there is a few. 

Found these 2 pictures of a Vizsla that looks to me like a BYB dog.

















What I consider well bred (& from whom I hope to get my Vizsla from)  I've personally met these dogs and these are actually the pictures that I took. Yeah, not the best, but whatever I am absolutely in love with Sue's dogs. Lewis was #1 Male Vizsla in Breed in 2009, was at Westminster the past 2 years and is an awesome hunting dog. Thats what I like about this breed. They can win in the field and ring, and not change a single thing about them.

CH Zenith’s Annie Get My Gun CDX JH AX AXJ NAP CGC ROM I absolutely love Annie... She is SO sweet and just likes a good rubbing. 

















CH Annian's Special Op Sally JH 









CH Annian's Great Discoverer JH Loved Clark also... He was awesome. 









BISS CH Annian’s Great Explorer JH My man Lewis... I just adore this dog<3 He looks even more fab in real life!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


>


Not bad, IMO, as far as opinions and aesthetics go. Definitely prefer this dog to these



nikkiluvsu15 said:


> (Am CH UCH SHR AGI Endeavor Piccadilly Gotta Wear Shades JH NAJ WC CGC TDI) (English/Bench Lab)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still prefer Harleigh and field bred Labs.

Hell, I prefer backyard bred German Shepherds (depending on the practice of the specific breeding) to some "reputable" German shepherd breeders out there (the ones who breed for extremes in conformation or temperament and drive).

And that goes for other breeds as well.



Miranda16 said:


> point taken ... makes sense ...
> but even with the dogs that are supposed to be shown as naturally as possible there are people who try and change their dog so much to make them "fit the standard" that it may harm the dog more than help it you know ....


Honestly, I think instead of making the dog "fit the standard", it's making the dog fit to the current interpretation of the standard/"fad".


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

What?? No Boxers???? 

AmMexCH PRO's Original 501 Blues, TT, SOM - Levi










My dogs, grandpa…
CH HighRivers Taylor Made of Backwoods, SOM, SOMC










My girl, well bred, just didn’t fill out as we had hoped.









And the poorly bred…but the best damn dog ever.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

OMG that's beautiful!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Gosh I love this dog. Look at that expression! I believe BFoster took this picture, it's a dog he knows. 

And, oh, the tragedy that is BYB Mini Schnauzers. 

The Gatz. Great dog, lousy Miniature Schnauzer.









Part of it's the grass, I think, but UGH that REAR.


















Something is just off about this guy


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Miranda16 said:


> do they not realize that its unhealthy for their dog ...
> 
> thats one thing about a lot (notice i say a lot and not all) of "show people" that i will never support or get .... they do whatever it takes to look good in the ring, no matter if it is at the expense of the animal ....


depends on the breed.

there are breed standards and then there are breed standards.

this is the Standard of the ADBA for the APBT
http://apbtconformation.com/adbastandard.htm 

by comparison, here's the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier Standard.
http://apbtconformation.com/akcstandard.htm

at first glance they seem relatively similar...but look close. in the AKC standard you note a lot more emphasis on nitpicky non essential stuff like..

"Any color, solid, parti, or patched is permissible, but all white, *more than 80 per cent white, *black and tan, and liver not to be encouraged."

what's wrong with more than 80% white? How do you actually calculate the percentage of white on a dog's body?

there's no reason to even include that. it has no bearing on the worth of the dog. and that's just one example. i could tear apart that AKC standard and find nothing of worth or bearing on health or function

but in the ADBA standard...

things like 

"The femur should be of a length so that the stifle joint is proportioned in the upper 1/3 of the rear assembly."

that's for optimal shock absorption in high energy activities...iow...there's a legit reason for it. i could pick apart the ADBA standard and find almost nothing that is based solely on preference of aesthetics.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Equinox said:


> Honestly, I think instead of making the dog "fit the standard", it's making the dog fit to the current interpretation of the standard/"fad".


Yep, when you start studying breed standards and comparing them to what's actually in the show ring nowadays, it becomes obvious which breeds are being carried away by fads and which are _actually_ correct. It's quite eye-opening.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> Not sure if thats what you are looking for, but like I said. He is probably my FAVORITE english/bench Lab out there.


No, not really what I was looking for, but he's a bit better than the others that you posted. IMO still very fat... but a bit eaisier on the eyes than the others. 
Okay, so anyone have pics of a well bred feild lab?
Nessa


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> Okay, so anyone have pics of a well bred feild lab?
> Nessa


I've been looking for one, and I can't find a good picture! Not all of the dogs are wonderfully put together either, but they're all just sitting in snow or the woods. Do you know how hard it is to look at the structure of a sitting black dog?!


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

I have pics of my Dog Wally's Mom who is a well bred Field Lab, she came from really nice lines and I don't remember any of the information right now but...well here she is.



















Yeah, she didn't turn out so great


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> It's awful. Not one of my bitches has EVER lost a topline like that, even carrying 11 puppies. Either she has a horrific topline to begin with, or she was in _terrible_ condition when she was bred, or she's older and has litter after litter. Poor girl.


Hey who let you on here? Welcome! 

What scares me is they first of all put that picture on their website, and second it's the ONLY picture of her profile. Poor girl indeed!

Lana


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

About the English/Bench Labs, I love them! But my aunt bred them most of my life, so I guess I am biased  But they are some of the most gorgeous dogs ever! (when they are at the proper weight)


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

More examples of well bred vs. backyard/poorly bred GSDs

Well bred






















































Backyard/Poorly bred


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Poorly bred is relative...especially with breeds who have distinct working and show lines.

Here's my "poorly bred" NGA greyhound Echo. Even by NGA standards, her breeding isn't of any real significance...even though her dad had 81 career wins, they were at a track that really garners no respect. I've entered her in practice or fun conformation events that they have at various field trials...once the judge even laughed at her. The day this pic was taken she won Best in Field (something she's done several times), beating out all the AKC dogs of every breed in the only event that matters when it comes to sighthounds: performance (lure coursing in this instance).









What I often find to be an even more ghastly comparison are pics of dogs who actually do the work of their breed and dogs who are just bred to *look* like they do the work of the breed. If you want to see how the breed should look/act if it needs to function, find someone who actually has to depend on their dog to do it's job...and not just for field trials...


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

This dog is a structural nightmare. This topline train wreck is not the result of whelping or anything else except genetics and heredity. She is so upright in the shoulder that she has no neck at all. The withers are also extremely upright instead of flatter. The you have the hammock for a topline, with a big rise over the loin, and nearly no turn of stifle or rear angulation. Shocking.










This one has some of the same issues to a lesser degree. It makes for a very unappealing picture to the eye, even if you can't put your finger on what exactly is wrong.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Here's another one of my favourite dogs that no ones done yet.

Well bred:
BIS BISS Ch. Lobato's Jitterbug Man AOM, HOF (This is the number#1 dane in America)









Ch. Elan-Krisda's Dixie Magic v. Raintree









Ch Sasdania's The Prophecy 









BISS Ch.Rainmaster's She's a Showgirl AOM (She's my favourite. She's #8 dane in America)









Badly bred:
































(This guys not terrible but shouldn't be a stud dog which he is!)


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no Red Nose is a little different because its not a reference to color. OFRN stands for "Old Family Red Nose" which is the name of a bloodline...so when a breeder says rednose..if they arent a BYB..they arent talking about a specifically red nosed dog...they are talking about a dog bred from that specific bloodline.



There are very few OFRN dogs left. There are bloodlines that consist of mostly rednose dogs, but most breeders claiming to have OFRN don't. These are modern rednose dogs, but not OFRN.

Here are a couple of AmStafs that I feel are not prime examples of the breed...



















This dog was listed on dogbreedinfo.com as an AmStaf. Sure!!










Here are some that I feel are more correct.

This one is my own dog, not that I'm biased 










His half-brother...










And a couple others that I like...










I'm not a huge fan of his head, but his structure is heading in a better direction!

Here are a couple of bitches that I like...


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> No, not really what I was looking for, but he's a bit better than the others that you posted. IMO still very fat... but a bit eaisier on the eyes than the others.
> Okay, so anyone have pics of a well bred feild lab?
> Nessa


WindyCanyon has some of my favorite Field Bred Labs. She doesn't really have many pictures, but here is her website: http://windycanyonlabs.homestead.com/

I also love his dogs. He is a member of my Lab board and they are stunning. They are still English Labs, so you probably won't like them, but they do field work as well. 
http://www.grampianlabs.com/

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/english-american.html I like that article because it kind of shows the difference, though I prefer Field Bred Labs without such a pointy nose. That is what I like about WindyCanyon, they don't have much of a pointy nose! 

I really like the look of U-RO2, U-CD, SHR, GrCH CHILBROOK LONE RANGER CD, RE, JH, WC, CGC , he is a english bred style, but does the majority of the work in the field (from what I can tell) He still isn't a "true" bred Field Lab though. And I still prefer WindyCanyons.

























These breeders have both English and Field, with some of their dogs doing both. 
http://www.shadowmystlabs.com/

I'm sure I can find more, just don't have the time right now  And like I said, I think only one of these is ONLY doing Field Work, but I could be wrong. So it may not be what you are looking for again. lol


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Here's a decent looking field Lab bitch. Still a TINY bit on the heavy side for my taste, but that's because she has some bench blood behind her, too.

HR Rhumbline’s Topsail Sloop SH, CGC, CC, NA, NAJ


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Here's a decent looking field Lab bitch. Still a little on the heavy side for my taste, but that's because she has some bench blood behind her, too.
> 
> HR Rhumbline’s Topsail Sloop SH, CGC, CC, NA, NAJ


She is beautiful! See, most the field bred's that I have found are just not what I would look for (pointy nose, long body, etc), but she (like some others I have posted) is beautiful to me. She isn't an extreme in either category, which is what I would probably look for.

That being said, there is some good breeders who do have those type of Labs that I don't really care for. Just haven't been able to find one (granted I haven't looked real hard yet).


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Javir Talka Marda!!


>


I have to admit, I don't much like that black dog *blush*


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I have to admit, I don't much like that black dog *blush*



He's heavier in bone than I like. I'm not really a GSD person, but i'm strongly considering one for my next dog. They are a bit larger than I really want, but a well-bred GSD has the looks and temperament that I think that I'm looking for in a dog. I found a breeder near me that has some really nice dogs. A bonus that they are in my back yard when I'm a million miles from nowhere


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> He's heavier in bone than I like.


I love his bone. I hate his body. He's overdone in the chest and too short coupled for what he's got. Look above at Javir, who is just as short coupled, but has proper proportions of rib to loin

ETA: This is a well bred beautifully structured bitch (overall). My biggest beef with her? I look at her and go "Where's the penis?" I do not care for that topline, but everything else? woof!


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I love his bone. I hate his body. He's overdone in the chest and too short coupled for what he's got. Look above at Javir, who is just as short coupled, but has proper proportions of rib to loin



OK, I see what you mean now. I like the looks of Javir better. I am so not a GSD person. After coming from Belgians & Pit Bulls, they all look overdone to me!

My childhood dream dog was a black GSD. Perhaps someday I will get that dog!

I'll admit, the liver sable pup is cute. I'd adopt him from a shelter if he had a decent temperament!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Equinox said:


> Not bad, IMO, as far as opinions and aesthetics go. Definitely prefer this dog to these


Agree - I liked that one the best also.




Equinox said:


> Honestly, I think instead of making the dog "fit the standard", it's making the dog fit to the current interpretation of the standard/"fad".


 [/quote]

I was wondering about that, so I looked up the AKC and UKC standard for Labs. AKC has this "Slab-sided individuals are not typical of the breed" UKC has "Faults: Slab sided or barrel ribbed; chest too narrow or too wide. "

I know the UKC wants just a little tuck, but what does "slab sided" mean?


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

KBLover said:


> I was wondering about that, so I looked up the AKC and UKC standard for Labs. AKC has this "Slab-sided individuals are not typical of the breed" UKC has "Faults: Slab sided or barrel ribbed; chest too narrow or too wide. "
> 
> I know the UKC wants just a little tuck, but what does "slab sided" mean?


My definition of slab-sided would be 'flat sided' like a slab of concrete is flat. The slab-sided look would promote too narrow a chest, and the barrel ribs (the other end of the spectrum) would make them too wide.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The slab-sided look would promote too narrow a chest, and the barrel ribs (the other end of the spectrum) would make them too wide.


This is correct!


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

From what I've read, it is like what Papilove is saying. Slab Sided is to narrow and Barrel Ribs is to wide, though I'm no expert! I know Harleigh is all wrong for standard, but now that this came up I'm trying to decide if she is Slab Sided or Barrel Ribbed (maybe neither). I know she has way to much of a tuck-up, even for a Field Lab. 

































(okay, so I couldn't find any good pictures. Those probably won't do much, but it'll help compare a bit to the well bred field labs I posted maybe)

Oh, I've got 2 more. To compare to the well bred APBT's... Here is a BYB APBT for ya!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Javir Talka Marda!!
> 
> 
> I have to admit, I don't much like that black dog *blush*


The entire J litter turned out very, very nice, but Javir is, of course, my favorite. Underrated (literally)... but what else can you expect?

Oh I'm not a fan of the black dog's conformation either. Couldn't put my finger on it, but thought he was overdone a bit in one way or the other. But he's a nice working dog, well bred and I hear he produces nicely.

After all, Andy, who I also posted, doesn't have the best conformation either, but he is one _hell _of a dog. 




stafinois said:


> OK, I see what you mean now. I like the looks of Javir better. I am so not a GSD person. After coming from Belgians & Pit Bulls, they all look overdone to me!
> 
> My childhood dream dog was a black GSD. Perhaps someday I will get that dog!
> 
> I'll admit, the liver sable pup is cute. I'd adopt him from a shelter if he had a decent temperament!


I'm biased, but I think all GSD pups are cute, regardless of color! Although I may make an exception for the "Panda" patterned ones (not my tastes). The problem is, is that this guy is a standing stud at a kennel that specializes in producing blue and livers. That same kennel also owns another large scale operation that breeds whites, pandas, blacks, black/tans, bi-colors, etc. 

Neither well bred nor breeding quality, but I must say, I can certainly see the selling point. The liver GSD puppies are adorable. 

Just so you know, I'm not one to talk with a 90 lb GSD, but many German Shepherds, especially among the working lines, are not excessively large. Compared to a Malinois, yes, they are larger, but my dog's dam was around the 60-65 lb range. My dog takes after his sire in size, but his full sisters are significantly smaller. Many consider 50-65 lb GSD bitches to be average size. 












Xeph said:


> ETA: This is a well bred beautifully structured bitch (overall). My biggest beef with her? I look at her and go "Where's the penis?" I do not care for that topline, but everything else? woof!


Hah, when you showed me that dog the first time, my first reaction was "wow! what a hunk!" and then realize something was missing. Love the look, but I'd just like it better if it were a male. Still, gorgeous dog!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Papilove said:


> My definition of slab-sided would be 'flat sided' like a slab of concrete is flat. The slab-sided look would promote too narrow a chest, and the barrel ribs (the other end of the spectrum) would make them too wide.


Is this something you could look at and see, or would you need to feel the dog's sides/ribs to really be able to tell?


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> Here's a decent looking field Lab bitch. Still a TINY bit on the heavy side for my taste, but that's because she has some bench blood behind her, too.
> 
> HR Rhumbline’s Topsail Sloop SH, CGC, CC, NA, NAJ


 She's actually really good looking to me! I'd probably take a bit of weight off her though, just a little! lol. I agree with nikkiluvsu15 about not liking the head of most field breds, but she's got a beautiful head peice. 

nikkiluvsu15, I also really like the look of the WindyCanyon Labs, and the Chilbrook are alright too  
Nessa


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> She's actually really good looking to me! I'd probably take a bit of weight off her though


I really don't think there's any weight to take off. She has a REALLY nice tuck.

While there are a few FAT show bred Labs, you DO have to put your hands on a lot of them. These guys can have large ribcages, and it can indeed make a dog look fat.

Justin, who has an ample chest, was accused of being fat! We had actually just taken weight off of him and he was in marvelous condition, but I had someone insist he was fat. I told them to put their hands on him, and they refused, because they 'knew' he was too heavy!

Bullpuckey xD



> Is this something you could look at and see


You can see it.

And man Equinox, Trent's mother is just a BEAUTIFUL bitch overall. Very harmonious, nice fluid lines. Just...pretty.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> CH HighRivers Taylor Made of Backwoods, SOM, SOMC


Wow wow wow wow!! I can't stop staring at this dog, he's really stunning!


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

P.S. 
Thank you Zim for starting this thread.... its a really interesting one


----------



## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

Its funny because what you call english labs. You would never find a english lab in england that looks anything like those nasty looking dogs a few pages back.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

stafinois said:


> There are very few OFRN dogs left. There are bloodlines that consist of mostly rednose dogs, but most breeders claiming to have OFRN don't. These are modern rednose dogs, but not OFRN.


very few straight up OFRN. but that "red nose" comes from somewhere...the difference between your assessment and mine is a mere matter of degrees. OFRN dogs tended towards red noses..'tis where the name came from. 



> Here are some that I feel are more correct.
> 
> This one is my own dog, not that I'm biased
> 
> ...


none of those dogs look much like Amstaffs lol...they all look like too thick APBT. pretty though...i like them better than most Amstaffs i see..


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> none of those dogs look much like Amstaffs lol...they all look like too thick APBT. pretty though...i like them better than most Amstaffs i see..



Most AmStaf breeders have lost their way, IMO. My male AmStaf weighs 48 lbs.


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

katielou said:


> Its funny because what you call english labs. You would never find a english lab in england that looks anything like those nasty looking dogs a few pages back.


While I admit that they aren't as overdone as some of the English Labs here in America, they do indeed have them over in England. 
http://www.welrc.org.uk/shows/shows_champ_09/shows_champ2009.htm
http://www.welrc.org.uk/shows/shows_champ_08/shows_champ2008.htm

Even those some of the English Labs ARE overdone, I would never call them nasty looking because I still find them to be appealing (though, like I've said I prefer well bred Field). I'm in the minority though


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

stafinois said:


> Most AmStaf breeders have lost their way, IMO. My male AmStaf weighs 48 lbs.


yeah im not really a fan. the AKC tends to screw with breeds imo. though its their right...they wanted a different breed than an APBT and they got one. they arent bad dogs...just increasingly more and more they are not really pit bulls...

i


----------



## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok here we go. This is a friends dog, who is deceased now. 










While not a looker by any means, she is rated SG1 in conformation at the Regional Conf. Show, is SchH3 always pronounced, is KKL2, OFA Good Hips/Normal Elbows. Her father is an import WUSV competitor, her mother is a Dutch import also SchH3 and V rated, KKL1 in conformation.

Wondering, since she doesn't fit the "eye appeal" of the others posted, if she is then considered "BYB".


----------



## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> yeah im not really a fan. the AKC tends to screw with breeds imo. though its their right...they wanted a different breed than an APBT and they got one. they arent bad dogs...just increasingly more and more they are not really pit bulls...
> 
> i



It really depends on the breeder. While most have gone the way of a larger, slower dog, there are exceptions out there. And honestly, most "real" APBTs with most breeders don't do anything other than sit on the end of a chain anyway, so it's only speculation as to what they are. I find it odd. The APBT crowd is often so down on Stafs because they are "bred for looks," yet are so convinced that their dogs are all that & a bag of chips because of what they look like.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Maliraptor said:


> Ok here we go. This is a friends dog, who is deceased now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nope. Mals are one of those breeds that are a little different, like pit bulls are. where confo isnt purely a beauty contest and more a real evaluation of structure...



stafinois said:


> It really depends on the breeder. While most have gone the way of a larger, slower dog, there are exceptions out there. *And honestly, most "real" APBTs with most breeders don't do anything other than sit on the end of a chain anyway,* so it's only speculation as to what they are. I find it odd. The APBT crowd is often so down on Stafs because they are "bred for looks,"*yet are so convinced that their dogs are all that & a bag of chips because of what they look like.*


bolded1:not in my experience. most of the ones i know pull their dogs at the very minimum...or hunt them..

bolded2: not really.....and the ones ive seen who do have that attitude....their dogs are hideous lol....


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

Maliraptor said:


>



That's my dream dog! 

Actually, this is my dream dog...













zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> nope. Mals are one of those breeds that are a little different, like pit bulls are. where confo isnt purely a beauty contest and more a real evaluation of structure...



That's not a Malinois.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wow i had some issues posting that lol



stafinois said:


> That's my dream dog!
> 
> Actually, this is my dream dog...
> 
> ...



you're confusing you know...im going to pm you...


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

The picture I posted is not a Malinois. 

Here is one of her sons-
(sire is KKL1 V rated SchH3 import)










We owned her brother, let me find pics. He then went on to be a dual purpose K9 in Utah.


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> bolded:not in my experience. most of the ones i know pull their dogs at the very minimum...or hunt them..
> 
> underlined: not really.....and the ones ive seen who do have that attitude....their dogs are hideous lol....



Most APBT breeders do not pull or hunt their dogs. Most don't do anything with their dogs, including the big names. A lot of them are just puppy mills living off past glory. People look at folks like Garner and Colby like they are some sort of gods, as they did with Boudreaux, Patrick, Faron, etc. But really, what are they doing with their dogs besides breeding and selling?

I've been involved with the breed for 14 years. And the longer I'm involved, the more disgusted I get. Every once in a while you run into something decent, but you have breeders that are too cheap to health test, or are in complete denial that the breed actually CAN suffer from health issues. I've also seen a LOT of terrible temperaments lately. Not so much human aggression, but dogs that are fearful and soft. It's like if it doesn't bite people, that means it has a great temperament. I've seen some DISGUSTING things with my own eyes in the yards/kennels of well known breeders that are held up as responsible on message boards. I can count on my fingers how many breeders of APBT or AmStaf worldwide that I'd be willing to get a dog from.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

crzy_brunette77 said:


> Here's another one of my favourite dogs that no ones done yet.
> 
> Well bred:
> BIS BISS Ch. Lobato's Jitterbug Man AOM, HOF (This is the number#1 dane in America)


*Drooool!*
"James" is my all time favorite Dane... sighhh! Hehe I was going to post him today, but you beat me to it <3 Love love love him! 
http://www.lobatogreatdanes.com/james.htm

<3 <3 <3









Nessa


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you're confusing you know...im going to pm you...



Confusing how? Both of those black dogs are GSDs.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I really don't think there's any weight to take off. She has a REALLY nice tuck.
> 
> While there are a few FAT show bred Labs, you DO have to put your hands on a lot of them. These guys can have large ribcages, and it can indeed make a dog look fat.
> 
> ...


LoL! Love that! Bullpuckey! Hehe I'll have to use that from time to time if you dont mind 
Any pics of Justin btw?
Nessa


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

I WAS trying to be slightly confusing.

The fact is, someone could have posted that black female I did, and said "this is an example of a BYB POC GSD"

But, she's not. She has her breed survey, and her conformation rating of "very good" and her health surveys and her working titles. Her pedigree is solid and also full of "approved" for breeding dogs.


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

Maliraptor said:


> I WAS trying to be slightly confusing.
> 
> The fact is, someone could have posted that black female I did, and said "this is an example of a BYB POC GSD"
> 
> But, she's not. She has her breed survey, and her conformation rating of "very good" and her health surveys and her working titles. Her pedigree is solid and also full of "approved" for breeding dogs.



That's why I didn't even bother to do one for Malinois. The dogs popping up in rescue look just like the dogs coming from the finest working breeders.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

stafinois said:


>


Oh, YUM! She's gorgeous! Aesthetically, it's probably my favorite body type. Muscular but lean, not overly long in body but legs for miiiiiles.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Maliraptor said:


> I WAS trying to be slightly confusing.
> 
> The fact is, someone could have posted that black female I did, and said "this is an example of a BYB POC GSD"
> 
> But, she's not. She has her breed survey, and her conformation rating of "very good" and her health surveys and her working titles. Her pedigree is solid and also full of "approved" for breeding dogs.



That's why I check the pedigree first and try to find dogs that either 1) couldn't possibly have come from a reputable breeder because of how it obviously caters to the "rare" pet market (huge white mammoth GSD and liver GSD) or 2) show an obvious discomfort and likely lack in solid temperament and nerves (such as the sable and black GSD posted). 

I think we all agree that you can't really judge a dog's breeding through a picture, even conformation-wise. But like Zim said, it's a good starting point and makes for a nice thread for those who want to get a better idea of well bred dogs vs. poorly bred dogs. 



stafinois said:


> That's why I didn't even bother to do one for Malinois. The dogs popping up in rescue look just like the dogs coming from the finest working breeders.


Agreed. Some of the finest working dogs out there, dogs that come from good breeding and are breeding quality, look like dogs you may see in rescues or being rehomed on Craigslist. 

Which brings me back to my earlier post


Equinox said:


> My dog is well bred. Good lines, west German working, titled and health tested breeding stock throughout almost the entire pedigree. Well thought out line breedings (or lack thereof) and specific dogs added to balance out drive and aggression. Temperament and nerves to die for.
> 
> ...but, his conformation is crap. Why? *His breeder, like many other working line breeders, doesn't breed for it. They breed for working and sport dogs with functional, but not necessarily correct, structure. And in that manner, many breeders are like backyard breeders in that they are not breeding for a conformation type. *
> 
> Obviously, though, no reputable breeder of the breed is going to end up producing mammoth mastiff/bear-like German Shepherds, but it's still hard to judge well bred dogs vs. poorly bred dogs simply based off of a picture.


And I'm not just talking about dogs with an SG rating. In the US, many reputable working line breeders don't bother with that, because there's no need to for papers. And because to some, breeding for conformation means possibly compromising on some amount of working ability, and so they disregard conformation altogether. Depends on the breeder's goals and personal vision of German Shepherds as a breed.

I think the term "well bred" and "breeding quality" can be very much an opinion, varying from person to person and on their view of how the breed should be.


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

Equinox said:


> Just so you know, I'm not one to talk with a 90 lb GSD, but many German Shepherds, especially among the working lines, are not excessively large. Compared to a Malinois, yes, they are larger, but my dog's dam was around the 60-65 lb range. My dog takes after his sire in size, but his full sisters are significantly smaller. Many consider 50-65 lb GSD bitches to be average size.



When I got my Malinois, size was a consideration. I often think that I made the wrong decision. For an extra 20 lbs at the same height, I could have gotten one with an off switch installed! LOL

I found a GSD breeder near me that has what looks like nice dogs. They have working bred dogs, Czech/Slovak I think, and they also do therapy work with some of them. I want to check them out for further consideration. Might be a nice breeder for a future pet/obedience dog.

Are GSDs more family oriented rather than one person dogs compared to Malinois?


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> What?? No Boxers????
> 
> AmMexCH PRO's Original 501 Blues, TT, SOM - Levi
> 
> ...



BOXERS!!!<3 I love a good looking show quality boxer.

And even though my boy is not bred well at all, total BYB, I love him and think he's a hunk. 

"What? Can I not wear dis in da show ring???"




























"I"M A HUNTIN DOG!!!!"


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

lovemygreys said:


> Poorly bred is relative...especially with breeds who have distinct working and show lines.
> 
> Here's my "poorly bred" NGA greyhound Echo. Even by NGA standards, her breeding isn't of any real significance...even though her dad had 81 career wins, they were at a track that really garners no respect. I've entered her in practice or fun conformation events that they have at various field trials...once the judge even laughed at her. The day this pic was taken she won Best in Field (something she's done several times), beating out all the AKC dogs of every breed in the only event that matters when it comes to sighthounds: performance (lure coursing in this instance).
> 
> ...


That's not poorly bred... I actually don't like the term 'poorly bred' and 'well-bred'. I prefer purpose bred. And breeding can be for a different purpose.

Well bred to me depends much on the breed at hand. Papillons for example I want to see show titles because they're not a working breed. However, I would be much more inclined to get a BC from a farmer than a show breeder.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

stafinois said:


> When I got my Malinois, size was a consideration. I often think that I made the wrong decision. For an extra 20 lbs at the same height, I could have gotten one with an off switch installed! LOL
> 
> I found a GSD breeder near me that has what looks like nice dogs. They have working bred dogs, Czech/Slovak I think, and they also do therapy work with some of them. I want to check them out for further consideration. Might be a nice breeder for a future pet/obedience dog.
> 
> Are GSDs more family oriented rather than one person dogs compared to Malinois?


I couldn't say because I've never owned a Malinois and personally have very limited experience with them. As a general rule, German Shepherds are one person dogs. I am not the person who spends the most time with my GSD, nor do I feed him all his meals, but when I'm in the room with the family, he does not care for anyone else. In the family, there's no doubt who's dog he is, even though he is a loving companion to all of us. 

I'm not sure of the extent of your experience/knowledge of German Shepherds, so forgive me if you've already heard this many times... but a Malinois to a Czech GSD are very different dogs. East German GSDs are great dogs, stable, strong nerved, thinking dogs. But they mature at a slow rate, and are usually not the choice for flashy, competitive obedience. Mals and many GSDs act on drive and impulse rather than on brains. Sure, they're incredibly smart, but sometimes they lack in impulse control. East German GSDs are more serious dogs, thinkers. 

However, a well bred East German GSD is, IMO, likely the best companion/pet of all the lines (and I say this as the owner of a West German working line dog). If you want a dog with an off switch that thinks before it acts, you're looking in the right place! It's important to study specific lines and decide which breeding will be best for your goals, too, and to get let the breeder know what you want.

I know someone who got a Czech GSD from a fantastic kennel. Amazing dog with an incredible pedigree of strong working dogs. Awful match on the breeder's part.


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

Equinox said:


> I'm not sure of the extent of your experience/knowledge of German Shepherds, so forgive me if you've already heard this many times... but a Malinois to a Czech GSD are very different dogs. East German GSDs are great dogs, stable, strong nerved, thinking dogs. But they mature at a slow rate, and are usually not the choice for flashy, competitive obedience. Mals and many GSDs act on drive and impulse rather than on brains. Sure, they're incredibly smart, but sometimes they lack in impulse control. East German GSDs are more serious dogs, thinkers.



I'm not looking for an OTCH dog. I'll be happy with a dog that can just Q reliably! LOL

What is the difference between the East German (DDR, right?) and Czech lines? I see them grouped together a lot, and those are the ones that I am most attracted to by appearance.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

stafinois said:


> I'm not looking for an OTCH dog. I'll be happy with a dog that can just Q reliably! LOL
> 
> What is the difference between the East German (DDR, right?) and Czech lines? I see them grouped together a lot, and those are the ones that I am most attracted to by appearance.


When a specific dog is DDR/Czech, it simply means its a mixture of DDR and Czech lines. I'm really not the best person to ask, because I only started research the East German dogs myself - my next pup will also be an East German/Czech GSD. They have always been my favorite as far as appearance (both conformation-wise and aesthetically), but only recently, as I learn more about the temperament and nerves, have they caught my interest. From what I hear, the DDR GSDs are more handler sensitive, while the Czech GSDs are often considered to be slightly sharper (especially depending on the lineage). It's the DDR GSDs that are more favored as family pets and companions between the two. 

I mentioned obedience because I was thinking of a Malinois's flashy (and impressive!) obedience at a Schutzhund trial. I think you are going to be happy with an East German GSD!!! Reliable is a good word.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Are GSDs more family oriented rather than one person dogs compared to Malinois?


NO, they are not. They are definitely one person dogs.

Strauss and Mirada love Jon very much, but they are very much mine.

BTW, who is the breeder near you?


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## Dobelove (Jun 17, 2010)

Keechak said:


> that is one of the ugliest fronts I have ever seen on an ACD!


I was going to say, worst front I have ever seen on any dog! Yikes!

Well Bred- All 3 from the same kennel.



























(Second dog is not mine, she's the aunt to one of my dogs and half sister to the other though)


Poorly Bred


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

My Family's breed the Boston Terrier. 

Good Examples.








Multiple BISS CH. Keynote's Knockout Kid ROM








Ch. Kiger's Kiss and Tell "Itty Bitty"








a Pup from Sunwoods, Love made EZ.








Ch. Cowboys LIL Sirius Black.

Bad Example:








Ink's LIL Luke Skywalker (note the Front Legs) 









Roxanne's Dance upon the Moonlit Bay (Face too long and one blue eye otherwise beautiful) 









CKY's Midnights Blackest hour AKA Chad. (Head is wrong, Face is wrong, Build nice, color So very wrong, one blue eyes Wrong Oh and I forgot to add, HE has a TAIL! OI!)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The genetics buff in me has to say it's very interesting your dog has so much white on the front legs but a solid black back leg without any white hairs...


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> The genetics buff in me has to say it's very interesting your dog has so much white on the front legs but a solid black back leg without any white hairs...




Hahah, yeah considering both his sire had very little white hair (Ch. Cowboy's Lil sirius black posted above) And his Dam, had huge white socks on all four. Also note, Chad dosn't have a White Coller. His Chest, Belly and front Legs and face have white. And he has a white Star on the back of his neck, but no Coller.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Though I like the idea, this whole thread is a little misleading.

The majority of dogs who are depicted as "well bred" are stacked, well-groomed, most of their pictures taken by high-quality cameras or maybe even pro photogs. But the BYB dogs are shown crouched over, in dirty yards, or the flash is going off in their eyes or something. The dogs aren't being compared on anything qualitative. The photos are being compared. Perhaps the living conditions are being compared.

The BEST thing any one can do is inquire with potential breeders to ask why they breed, what health tests they perform, etc (not that you guys don't know this, just saying it for any newbies who might be reading). Because there are some extremely well-bred dogs who people would label as BYB simply because they lack the flash factor.

IMO It'd be far more useful to find stacked pictures of BYB dogs so that the actual dog can be compared without such great variation between well-bred/BYB photos.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Ok, here's a stacked BYB dog:









If one wants a lower quality picture:


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Well, Xeph, I _guess _I could take that hunk of a byb GSD off your hands... 

Strauss <3


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh but you can't use Strauss! I luvs him. 

But yeah, teaching people to evaluate basic conformation of an animal would be extremely useful. Even just the easiest of faults to spot (cow hocks, or swayed backs like that Golden, etc) could go a long way. If only we could get them to listen!


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> But yeah, teaching people to evaluate basic conformation of an animal would be extremely useful. Even just the easiest of faults to spot (cow hocks, or swayed backs like that Golden, etc) could go a long way. If only we could get them to listen!


Some of us ARE listening, and trying to learn. But I have to agree.. most of the photos here are not fair comparisons. I appreciate those who are also posting some detail as to what features are positive and negative.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh.. I'm learning too. I have a LOT to learn. I know almost nothing about the structure of most dogs (though I do know about my mutty mutt's conformation thanks to members like Zim and Redyre). That was just a comment about the general population of people who buy/adopt a dog without giving any thought except "it's cute."


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Oh, and well bred or not, Chad is one of my favourite BTs ever!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Agree with MissMutt, and I think that's the benefit of this thread. As many have already mentioned, you can't judge a dog's breeding based solely on one picture showing its conformation, especially among working dogs. But, it's a good start, especially for teaching the basics of conformation. I personally still consider myself very, very new to my breed (German Shepherds), so this is has been a great thread for me, too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I betcha I could find some BYB dogs 'round here that have owners that may let me stack them up. Couldn't hurt to look.

Strauss is one of those BYB cases (because they do exist) that has really nice lines behind him....and not three or four generations back. They're RIGHT THERE. But he's a BYB dog because nobody paid attention to what they were breeding. Just threw it all together


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

View attachment 20018


Actually I think this front on the golden is worse, but the ACD is very bad. The front leg is placed WAY far forward. Legs are to support the body, not the head. A line drawn perpendicular along the front of the foreleg should find nearly all of the neck forward of the line.

This dog also has a very upright upper arm, an upright shoulder angle, and a very abrupt sharp change from neck into shoulder. It is also open angled in the rear but not to the degree of the front.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

I see the point, it's like informercials for products where the "before" photo has a person who is not made up, not smiling, standing in a less-than-flattering pose, and the "after" photo fixes all of that...

In my own defense, it was REALLY hard to find a BYB photo online of a dog that was stacked... it''s like some of them know better or something.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Well, give me a few hours. I can't stack to save my life, but I'll get some comparison shots. Jack and Jonas are both BYBs. Jonas is a HORRIFIC example of a Dachshund.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Though I like the idea, this whole thread is a little misleading.
> 
> The majority of dogs who are depicted as "well bred" are stacked, well-groomed, most of their pictures taken by high-quality cameras or maybe even pro photogs. But the BYB dogs are shown crouched over, in dirty yards, or the flash is going off in their eyes or something. The dogs aren't being compared on anything qualitative. The photos are being compared. Perhaps the living conditions are being compared.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. But it IS a good excuse of a thread to ogle pretty pictures of pretty dogs.

And Red, thanks for drawing the angles on the dogs that you did! Always super informative. LOL, I still have no idea how to find those bones.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It's hard to find stacked pics of poorly structured dogs as I'm leary of using someone's dog I don't know as an example of what is 'wrong'. So I used dogs I know from owners I know just to avoid trouble.

Here's Jake standing next to Beau. Left is BYB and right is an AKC ch. Keep in mind that Beau is NOT a small papillon. He's 8 lbs at a healthy weight.










Jake's not actually that bad. He is massive though and his ear set is not so great (no fringe either). You can see the underbite there. 

I just realized he is marked exactly like Summer only on the wrong side lol.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> And Red, thanks for drawing the angles on the dogs that you did! Always super informative. LOL, I still have no idea how to find those bones.


In order to find them you gotta know where they are.  










You can practice finding the withers, the point of shoulder, the pelvis, point of buttocks, point of hip, and stifle joint on your own dog.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Is it worrisome that I can identify that breed of dog (Aussie) by OUTLINE and a SKELETON?


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Actually, that's good.


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## Karinia (Oct 5, 2009)

Is that diagram just for aussie's or for all dog breeds?


----------



## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Umm can I just say that this thread is awesome??? I feel like I learn something new each time I open it up, hahaha. 

...That being said, I have absolutely nothing to add, as I'm still pretty new to this whole "dog owning" thing 

But thanks to all who are contributing


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Squeeker said:


> In my own defense, it was REALLY hard to find a BYB photo online of a dog that was stacked... it''s like some of them know better or something.


Nah, it's because most of them are completely ignorant of how/why conformation and structure actually _matters._


----------



## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

Thanks, Pai... it was meant more as a joke though!


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> In order to find them you gotta know where they are.



*prints image*


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

eh..i just thought it'd be easier to look at the pics..but you've got the link.

if you cant see it..here's the link to where the images are...link


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Nothing is showing up Zim.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Papilove said:


> Nothing is showing up Zim.


really? i can see it. hmmm....


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

It's not working for me either. When I copied the image's location it says it's forbidden, plus there's 404 error.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Thanks, the link works. The images still don't. I don't know why you can. Unless it's my computer for some reason but it seems to be working otherwise. I even tried hovering over the 'square' and doing copy url... THAT WORKED, so why it isn't showing up on here I have no idea.



Nargle said:


> It's not working for me either. When I copied the image's location it says it's forbidden, plus there's 404 error.


Really? I only tried the first one, but I was able to copy the image url and paste it to my browser and go to it. ??? Weird.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> It's not working for me either. When I copied the image's location it says it's forbidden, plus there's 404 error.


weird..ive posted those pics in the exact same way on this exact forum before.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> eh..i just thought it'd be easier to look at the pics..but you've got the link.
> 
> if you cant see it..here's the link to where the images are...link


Links work fine for me, thanks


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Okay, after following the link I could see the pics. Very interesting! I certainly enjoy studying anatomy and the structure of humans and animals  It's just so interesting to see how all of the parts fit together and how they work. You can really get down to the details of what makes a dog able to perform well doing the job it was bred to do.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Links work fine for me, thanks


its a good set of diagrams. i like the fact that there is a diagram of the musculature in addition to a skeletal one


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Karinia said:


> Is that diagram just for aussie's or for all dog breeds?


All breeds have the same basic anatomy (though some have more tail vertebrae than others, obviously). It's just the size and proportions that change.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> Oh, and well bred or not, Chad is one of my favourite BTs ever!


Awww, Chaddy says Thanks! He is well Bred, he's got Champion blood lines and a sibling or two who made it to Westminster. He's just the Ugly Duckling of the bunch.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Good thread Zim. I've spent at least an hour going through it.
How's about some BCs and catahoulas? Anybody?
I am in dire need of an edumacation!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

With BCs it would be hard. There is just SUCH a variation on what is considered well bred versus not well bred. The working bred BCs all look fairly different from each other. Plus I don't think I've ever seen one stacked either lol.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I think we need to give credit to working lines that are well bred rather than just 'bench' dogs, as often show lines and working lines look very different within a breed. Examples I can think of are in Labradors, Goldens, GSD and Dobes, I've seen it in other breeds as well but these are the most obvious.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I think we need to give credit to working lines that are well bred rather than just 'bench' dogs


Equinox and I did. We showed well bred dogs from both lines.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

^
What Xeph said.

Actually, I'm guilty in that all of the German Shepherds I posted were working line German Shepherds. All/most are fairly well known and well received in the working GSD world for their working ability and temperament as well as the improvement they bring to working GSDs as far as conformation.



Equinox said:


> Good topic, Zim.
> 
> Well bred
> Frankie Anrebri
> ...





Equinox said:


> Well bred


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm asking this question completely out of ignorance with no criticism meant whatsoever: What is the purpose of the rear leg conformation in GSDs?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> I think we need to give credit to working lines that are well bred rather than just 'bench' dogs, as often show lines and working lines look very different within a breed. Examples I can think of are in Labradors, Goldens, GSD and Dobes, I've seen it in other breeds as well but these are the most obvious.


Carla, if you have some pictures of working line Dobes, I'd love to see them! I'm reasonably familiar with show Dobes, or at least have seen a picture or two of them, but I don't think I've ever come across Dobes bred for protection sport/police work.



> I'm asking this question completely out of ignorance with no criticism meant whatsoever: What is the purpose of the rear leg conformation in GSDs?


That's really a bit outside of this thread. Luckily, the topic comes up pretty frequently here (I swear, according to DF the only breeds of dog are Papillons, Pit Bulls, and GSDs ). You can get a good education by searching topics started by Xeph.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

It is for rear drive and to get the flying trot.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/11_Movement_3/Movement_3.html


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> It is for rear drive and to get the flying trot.
> 
> http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/11_Movement_3/Movement_3.html


**googly brains** awhaaaaat haha thats very technical haha


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> It is for rear drive and to get the flying trot.
> 
> http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/11_Movement_3/Movement_3.html


Thank you!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> It is for rear drive and to get the flying trot.
> 
> http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/11_Movement_3/Movement_3.html



You know what's sad? I woke Wally from his nap and made him walk around and stuff to try to see this...before realizing it's probably oriented around GSDs or other similarly sized/shaped dogs LOL.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here's a hunk of a working line!

V Miro vom Wällerhorst











> I woke Wally from his nap and made him walk around and stuff to try to see this...before realizing it's probably oriented around GSDs or other similarly sized/shaped dogs LOL.


That's not sad at all! You're trying to learn 

While the main focus of all of her drawings is the German Shepherd Dog, the general biomechanics can be applied to ANY dog, and it is a wonderful learning tool IMO


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Here's a hunk of a working line!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


though..there are some GSD specific things that dont apply to all breeds. like over reach in a GSD is good..over reach in a pit bull is not.

here's the pit bull equivalent of the GSD link http://apbtconformation.com/movement.htm


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Are there ways (short of surgery) to correct a bad gait? Like in zim's link, the 7th video show a dog who bounced in his rear instead of pushing forward. Could this be corrected via training/practice/exercise or would it either have to be corrected in surgery, or going back in time to when he was a pup and doing things differently then?


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Outstanding link, Zim, thanks.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Are there ways (short of surgery) to correct a bad gait? Like in zim's link, the 7th video show a dog who bounced in his rear instead of pushing forward. Could this be corrected via training/practice/exercise or would it either have to be corrected in surgery, or going back in time to when he was a pup and doing things differently then?


no. the problem is inherant to the structure of the dog. the only way surgery could correct it is by altering the entire skeletal and muscle structure


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no. the problem is inherant to the structure of the dog. the only way surgery could correct it is by altering the entire skeletal and muscle structure


Wow.

So it's a great thing you started this thread. Certainly explains why how a dog "looks" (in terms of conformation/structure) is so important. Perhaps THE most important thing. At least temperament can be modified at least to some degree. But if you can't do anything about structure - you're stuck. 

I guess the next obvious question is how do dogs end up with flawed structure? Simply genetics? Just random whims of Mother Nature? Something happened during puppy's development (too much jumping/running at too young an age, not enough movement, injury, etc?) Or do we just not have that many answers yet except "it just does, sometimes"?

And sorry if I'm taking it off topic, feel free to shut me up if I am.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

well in each litter of puppies a couple or a few puppies may come out with sturcture that is very A typical to the bloodline even in a tightly linebred litter just because of random genetic mutations that happen all the time in life, notmally these differances are minute but if a BYB'er gets a hold of such a dog they can magnify and multiply the problem from a dog that should have been neutered.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Wow.
> 
> So it's a great thing you started this thread. Certainly explains why how a dog "looks" (in terms of conformation/structure) is so important. Perhaps THE most important thing. At least temperament can be modified at least to some degree. But if you can't do anything about structure - you're stuck.
> 
> ...


structure is important IF its based on sound biomechanical principles. 

but like..say i have a dog with a really bad topline. having a straight topline is important because it indicates the fore assembly and the rear assembly are balance...the legs are all of proportionate length and angulation, there's no roaching of the back, the loin is of proper length...all that stuff really does have an effect on how the dog moves as well as to what lengths the dog can perform...if based on sound biomechanical principle.

as for how? there's a lot of reason..bad genes/breeding, improper nutrition as a pup, under or overdoing exercise when very young, occasionally pregnancy and birth complications..all that sort of thing has an effect on how soundly and efficiently a dog can perform physical tasks as an adult..which is why its important for breeders to maintain the utmost care in breeding and raising their animals


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Are there ways (short of surgery) to correct a bad gait? Like in zim's link, the 7th video show a dog who bounced in his rear instead of pushing forward. Could this be corrected via training/practice/exercise or would it either have to be corrected in surgery, or going back in time to when he was a pup and doing things differently then?


I think it might depend on the dog and his particular structure. If it's bad enough he's bouncing? Probably not. But there ARE ways to teach a dog to use his body better, calavetti, jump grids, rear end awareness, etc.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no. the problem is inherant to the structure of the dog. the only way surgery could correct it is by altering the entire skeletal and muscle structure


I would imagine though, just like in the horse world, you could improve the dog's gait through strengthening and flexibility exercises. He still wouldn't move as nicely as a dog with better structure, but could move better than he is in that video.

ETA: oops, Raegan W beat me to the punch!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I think it might depend on the dog and his particular structure. If it's bad enough he's bouncing? Probably not. But there ARE ways to teach a dog to use his body better, calavetti, jump grids, rear end awareness, etc.


the thing is...that will only take you so far..and you would have to do it in such a way that compensated for the individual faults..that..that's some tricky business...



waterbaby said:


> I would imagine though, just like in the horse world, you could improve the dog's gait through strengthening and flexibility exercises. He still wouldn't move as nicely as a dog with better structure, but could move better than he is in that video.
> 
> ETA: oops, Raegan W beat me to the punch!


the post of my you quoted..i was referring to that specific dog KB mentioned. in that case..no..it wouldnt work.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Of course there are limits and a balanced dog is going to hold up longer than a dog made from spare parts, but there are some things you can keep the dog sound and prevent ingury. I have a blog post about this somewhere...

http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com/search/label/conditioning exercises

*NOTE: These are specific to the individual dog. If you decide to try any of these exercises with your dog, DON'T BE AN IDIOT.*


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Of course there are limits and a balanced dog is going to hold up longer than a dog made from spare parts, but there are some things you can keep the dog sound and prevent ingury. I have a blog post about this somewhere...
> 
> http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com/search/label/conditioning exercises
> 
> *NOTE: These are specific to the individual dog. If you decide to try any of these exercises with your dog, DON'T BE AN IDIOT.*



i can see some benefit in that but i wouldnt attempt anything like it without first consulting a specialist. i personally prefer to keep the high impact stuff to sound dogs and work the "spare parts" dog in more low impact stuff. im kind of anal retentive like that.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Of course there are limits and a balanced dog is going to hold up longer than a dog made from spare parts, but there are some things you can keep the dog sound and prevent ingury. I have a blog post about this somewhere...
> 
> http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com/search/label/conditioning exercises
> 
> *NOTE: These are specific to the individual dog. If you decide to try any of these exercises with your dog, DON'T BE AN IDIOT.*



Wow - I've been wanting to work Wally physically as much as I torment him mentally. I'm SO bookmarking this.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Wow - I've been wanting to work Wally physically as much as I torment him mentally. I'm SO bookmarking this.


before you put Wally through any of that you might want to at least try and check with someone who can give you a good idea of Wally's weak points so you can tailor the program to be truly beneficial for him.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't want to start an entire new thread for this, so I'll ask here. Xeph/other GSD people: I saw this six-month-old bitch at a show this weekend. I like how she moves, but I know little about GSDs and wondered what you guys would think! Does it look like she'll develop into a sound dog? Here's a short video of her competing for best puppy in group -- just click to open in photobucket.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> before you put Wally through any of that you might want to at least try and check with someone who can give you a good idea of Wally's weak points so you can tailor the program to be truly beneficial for him.



Good point.


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## AmyBeth (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't know enough to make an accurate judgement but I believe this is a well bred boston









And here is my baby, who we're pretty sure came from a byb. (We got him from a family who got him from a breeder)
These are the best pics I could find.




























He is 16.8 lbs and 2½ years old as of last month. He also has a lot of health problems- allergies, sensitive stomache, he had an undescended testicle.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Thanks for the thread Zim! Someone posted a well bred black and white spotted Great Dane, that looked exactly like my aunt's dog!

I was wondering if anyone could do Rough Collies? I am no breeder, nor have I bought from a breeder. So if anyone could do Rough Collies I would love that!


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Some not so well bred border collies:






















Some well bred:


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

That GSD puppy looks very pretty to me. Balanced in movement and clean coming and going, though she doesn't have a lot of reach in front.


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## VonKromeHaus (Feb 8, 2010)

OK, Here is what I consider a nice well bred breed worthy GSD. 
Movement(the leash is actually caught on his back leg in this pic)









Side view









Front Head shot









No updated stack shots except this crappy one that was a free stack by him and I was on the wrong side with only my camera phone to capture it. Also, he is turned slightly not completely straight. 









I'll get a good stack picture of him tonight. This is my dog. Osyrius SilverKrome GTOVonmarionhaus He is a West German working bred dog. He has OFA Good hips and Normal Elbows. He may not be the best conformationally but he is definetely a good looking as well as good working dog. He is down in the pasterns a little but that doesn't prevent him from working! 

I think that form follows Function and if the dog can work, it can work. Obviously, I like dogs from titled, health tested parents but have seen some great working dogs come from other areas. 

Courtney


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i think form compliments function.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Not to nit pick VonKromeHaus, because your dog is beautiful, if not absolutely perfect. I'm no expert on GSDs... however, you use the phrase form follows function, to disprove the very point. Form follows function means that form is necessary for accurate function. One doesn't exist without the other. You may have acceptable performance from a dog with less than perfect conformation but the areas designated by the standard are supposed to be developed in regards to useful work. Weak pasterns may not stop him from working, but it might stop him from working as long as he should, or, it might mean a shorter work life. (not saying WILL, just using it as an example). He also looks a little too steep in the croup to me. That could spell trouble in endurance. But again, no GSD expert here. Just my opinion. However, here's the actual form follows function origin and meaning.

Form follows function is a principle associated with modern architecture and industrial design in the 20th century. *The principle is that the shape of a building or object should be primarily based upon its intended function or purpose.*


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

vomKromeHaus - welcome to the forum. The Judge is a very handsome guy.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i think form compliments function.


Very well said.


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## VonKromeHaus (Feb 8, 2010)

Papilove said:


> Not to nit pick VonKromeHaus, because your dog is beautiful, if not absolutely perfect. I'm no expert on GSDs... however, you use the phrase form follows function, to disprove the very point. Form follows function means that form is necessary for accurate function. One doesn't exist without the other. You may have acceptable performance from a dog with less than perfect conformation but the areas designated by the standard are supposed to be developed in regards to useful work. Weak pasterns may not stop him from working, but it might stop him from working as long as he should, or, it might mean a shorter work life. (not saying WILL, just using it as an example). He also looks a little too steep in the croup to me. That could spell trouble in endurance. But again, no GSD expert here. Just my opinion. However, here's the actual form follows function origin and meaning.
> 
> Form follows function is a principle associated with modern architecture and industrial design in the 20th century. *The principle is that the shape of a building or object should be primarily based upon its intended function or purpose.*


I think the form completes function is better suited saying. I understand what you are saying and honestly, if his pasterns were better(we're talking very minimal stuff here) he would be able to more than liekly work longer than he will now. However, he is the only one in the litter to be down a little and it doesn't slow him down in the least bit. Also, the stack shot as I stated was a crappy stack shot to prove that good dogs can look like crap dogs depending on a photo and angle, view, feet placement, bad stack, good stack etc. 

I'm pretty comfortable with my dog and know that well, he is not the best out there but he is the best in my eyes. Mind you this German working line dog is pointed in the AKC. There will always be a better dog out there than the dogs we own and there will always be worse. It comes down to perception and you can not judge a well bred vs BYB dog by a picture IMHO.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Papilove said:


> Not to nit pick VonKromeHaus, because your dog is beautiful, if not absolutely perfect. I'm no expert on GSDs... however, you use the phrase form follows function, to disprove the very point. Form follows function means that form is necessary for accurate function. One doesn't exist without the other. You may have acceptable performance from a dog with less than perfect conformation but the areas designated by the standard are supposed to be developed in regards to useful work. Weak pasterns may not stop him from working, but it might stop him from working as long as he should, or, it might mean a shorter work life. (not saying WILL, just using it as an example). He also looks a little too steep in the croup to me. That could spell trouble in endurance. But again, no GSD expert here. Just my opinion. However, here's the actual form follows function origin and meaning.
> 
> Form follows function is a principle associated with modern architecture and industrial design in the 20th century. *The principle is that the shape of a building or object should be primarily based upon its intended function or purpose.*


I think you bring up an excellent and valid point, but I would also like to mention that most working line dogs I know with cow hocks and a steep croup can work a whole lot better than a show line GSD with correct conformation. I am in the party that says "if that dog has proven himself as a working dog, with a GSD's work ethic, drive, nerve, and temperament, I'd sooner breed him than a GSD with a GSD's body but little drive and working ability." 

Just me personally, but I prioritize how a dog actually does perform over what his conformation may or may not say about how he might perform. Ideally, yes, a dog would be perfect and be a balance of working ability and conformation, but I'm saying that if it comes down to making compromises, that's what I think. 

And I understand and respect that it's an opinion that often varies from person to person. So all I'm doing is adding my thoughts!



VonKromeHaus said:


> Mind you this German working line dog is pointed in the AKC.


Is he? Very nice!!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't think he looks like crap. I actually think he looks pretty nice. He's got a common fault in the working lines...a short steep croup. But his front looks nice enough.

But then, I like working lines and show lines


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## VonKromeHaus (Feb 8, 2010)

Equinox said:


> I think you bring up an excellent and valid point, but I would also like to mention that most working line dogs I know with cow hocks and a steep croup can work a whole lot better than a show line GSD with correct conformation. I am in the party that says "if that dog has proven himself as a working dog, with a GSD's work ethic, drive, nerve, and temperament, I'd sooner breed him than a GSD with a GSD's body but little drive and working ability."
> 
> Just me personally, but I prioritize how a dog actually does perform over what his conformation may or may not say about how he might perform. Ideally, yes, a dog would be perfect and be a balance of working ability and conformation, but I'm saying that if it comes down to making compromises, that's what I think.
> 
> ...


Great Post!!! Also, wanted to make it clear that he isn't cow-hocked, he had a sister that was a little but not very bad and when stacked properly to "correct" it, you can't even tell. There goes those stacked pictures again! 

He definetely isn't lacking in the drive department!!!! lol 

That said, I think anyone with a show dog or anyone with a dog with an interest in comformation should be able to pick their dogs apart adn KNOW what is wrong with their conformation, this includes mutts and mixed breeds as well!!!

Thanks Xeph. He has matured nicely and is still maturing. Dumb dog. lol He does have a common fault. Every dog has a fault, it's just whether it's a horrible fault or a workable fault IMHO.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Equinox said:


> I think you bring up an excellent and valid point, but I would also like to mention that most working line dogs I know with cow hocks and a steep croup can work a whole lot better than a show line GSD with correct conformation. I am in the party that says "if that dog has proven himself as a working dog, with a GSD's work ethic, drive, nerve, and temperament, I'd sooner breed him than a GSD with a GSD's body but little drive and working ability."
> 
> Just me personally, but I prioritize how a dog actually does perform over what his conformation may or may not say about how he might perform. Ideally, yes, a dog would be perfect and be a balance of working ability and conformation, but I'm saying that if it comes down to making compromises, that's what I think.
> 
> And I understand and respect that it's an opinion that often varies from person to person. So all I'm doing is adding my thoughts!


No it's very true. 

At the moment I don't own a working breed, but in the past, I think I owned one of the rare working breeds that didn't have a severe distinction between working and show lines: Doberman Pinschers.

Oh yes, there was a SEVERE distinction between BYB and puppy mill dobies and good quality working or show dobes, but other than that, it was a fairly even playing field.

In just about EVERY other breed that works (and I'm including the herding and sporting breeds too) seem to have a huge chasm between the two that only a few seem to be able to straddle. That is sad. I do understand your point about preferring a proven worker to a proven show animal that can't work.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

VonKromeHaus said:


> ]Also, wanted to make it clear that he isn't cow-hocked, he had a sister that was a little but not very bad and when stacked properly to "correct" it, you can't even tell. There goes those stacked pictures again!


Oh, I wasn't referring to him when I said "cow-hocked" - I just listed it as an example because it's another common fault among the working lines.

Where did you get the Judge? I remember you mentioning him coming from a breeding in the Oregon/Washington area? Though I may be mistaken, as I often am.



Papilove said:


> No it's very true.
> 
> At the moment I don't own a working breed, but in the past, I think I owned one of the rare working breeds that didn't have a severe distinction between working and show lines: Doberman Pinschers.
> 
> ...


Now that I think of it, I don't know of any breeders breeding Doberman Pinschers specifically for work or the protection sports. I live in an area where there are many great Doberman breeders held in high regard, and they all breed for conformation. But I've also met many of those dogs and their progeny, and the same dogs with AKC Ch. also excel in agility and other performance sports. It is wonderful to see so many involved in both conformation and something like agility. 

I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say!! Sometimes I don't word my thoughts in the best way and my attitude towards the topic is perceived differently. I love the breed as a whole, not just the specific lines. I simply wanted to put out my $.02 on what I would prefer, and didn't want it to come off as me saying "working dogs are superior", because that's not what I believe in.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i personally think dogs that can work, show, do sports and be pets ARE superior. just imo.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Zim, don't we all? Ideally, that's the type of dog I want, too.

Too bad that in some breeds, all that, plus excellent health, in one dog can be hard to come by. And it's a shame that many breeders aren't actually breeding for that in the German Shepherd, considering that the GSD is supposed to be an all around,versatile, jack of all trades type of dog. Now, people are surprised if a GSD has good conformation, spectacular working ability, and is a good family pet and great with kids. It should be a given, in this breed and many others. But now it's become an exception.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Could someone put up examples of a staffy and a bull terriers?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

foxthegoldfish said:


> Could someone put up examples of a staffy and a bull terriers?


sure..gimme a few


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Cheers Zim
Any other bully breeds would be good too


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> Carla, if you have some pictures of working line Dobes, I'd love to see them! I'm reasonably familiar with show Dobes, or at least have seen a picture or two of them, but I don't think I've ever come across Dobes bred for protection sport/police work.
> 
> 
> 
> That's really a bit outside of this thread. Luckily, the topic comes up pretty frequently here (I swear, according to DF the only breeds of dog are Papillons, Pit Bulls, and GSDs ). You can get a good education by searching topics started by Xeph.


 
These guys are some of the best looking dogs I've seen, http://legard.homestead.com/home.html I love the fact that they compete both in the ring and prove the working ability of their dogs. Generally I've seen that good quality working lines (in Dobes) have a deeper chest and a slightly heavier bone than show bred dogs and the movement is better overall.

Sorry Papi, but there are definate differances in lines that work and those that strictly show in Dobes, having been around them since birth perhaps I notice it more than those who haven't been around them as long. Many American show lines are sorely lacking in chest depth, bone and head structiure as well as 'nerve'.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Equinox said:


> Just me personally, but I prioritize how a dog actually does perform over what his conformation may or may not say about how he might perform. Ideally, yes, a dog would be perfect and be a balance of working ability and conformation, but I'm saying that if it comes down to making compromises, that's what I think.


This makes sense to me. Docking performance because of looks is like grimping about a hitter with a good batting average and production because his stance isn't pretty. What difference does it make? As long as the job gets done, it's that what matters, at least in the "practical" world? And why don't the standards, especially for working-type (working, sporting, herding) groups include drive or fitness to perform breed job? Why is it just guessing based on looks? Let the dog demonstrate his ability. I think we need a new type of "conformation" in the sport - one for looks/form and one for actual ability to do his breed's work.






VonKromeHaus said:


> That said, I think anyone with a show dog or anyone with a dog with an interest in comformation should be able to pick their dogs apart adn KNOW what is wrong with their conformation, this includes mutts and mixed breeds as well!!!


Just a question - what would be the conformation of a mixed dog? Assuming you even know what mixes he is, how would you know how much of what mix the dog got, especially to the level of knowing what his conformation should be?


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## VonKromeHaus (Feb 8, 2010)

You can look at the overall structure of a dog and proper angles, fronts etc. to see if they have good conformation. To do this, you would need to choose a breed that was close to them in structure and looks. So, I guess for mixed breeds the Proper Structure is a better statement and know why they don't have proper structure whether mixed or pure. 

Judge is out of Echo Vom Rabauks and by Kinte Von Den Wannaer Hohen SchH2. 

I love Dobermans and even considered getting one before Judge BUT I could not find a breeder whose dogs did well CONSISTENTLY in trials and also one who didn't charge an arm, leg and first born for a dog. I've seen a Dobe ran off the field by a decoy at a trial, not on purpose but because the dog was nervy. In fact most AKC style Dobes I see around here are extremely nervy, they are fear biters almost. BUT their conformation is pretty. I prefer to see the European bred Dobes. Better suited all around dogs IME. 

The GSD is one of the ONLY breeds where the Parent club requires a show rating as well as a working title on the dog before they will allow the litters from the dog to be registered. AKC will never do that, they are money hungry and that's all they care about. They are a large scale corpoation and I think people forget that sometimes.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Just a question - what would be the conformation of a mixed dog? Assuming you even know what mixes he is, how would you know how much of what mix the dog got, especially to the level of knowing what his conformation should be?


We did this once on this board with the Mixed Breed Conformation thread. I also had a separate thread for Marge.

It's not so much evaluating the dog to a standard (that's impossible), but using the principles of biomechanics to determine how well the dog is built and what activities they would likely excel in based on their structure. There are also just some general things that apply to the majority of dogs.. shoulder angles come to mind..


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> These guys are some of the best looking dogs I've seen, http://legard.homestead.com/home.html I love the fact that they compete both in the ring and prove the working ability of their dogs. Generally I've seen that good quality working lines (in Dobes) have a deeper chest and a slightly heavier bone than show bred dogs and the movement is better overall.
> 
> Sorry Papi, but there are definate differances in lines that work and those that strictly show in Dobes, having been around them since birth perhaps I notice it more than those who haven't been around them as long. Many American show lines are sorely lacking in chest depth, bone and head structiure as well as 'nerve'.


Are nerves a problem in the show line Dobermans as well? I've always had very, very positive experiences with them - met a couple of Doberman Pinschers bred by local breeders here. Foxfire, Wingate, and also met one imported from Hungary. All nice dogs, confidant, and with a stable temperament. Wingate isn't active in agility from what I've seen, but the dogs don't lack in nerve there. And Foxfire has bred a Dual Ch. and several MACH (including _MACH3 Foxfire's Hard Promises MXF, IT, TQX, ADCH, SACH-BR, SCH-BR, JCH, RCH, GM, NATCH, TN-E, TG-E, WV-O_, and _Dual Ch. MACH2 Foxfire's Heavens Present Sharwill,
MXF, AAD, SA, AR, AS, EAC, EAG, EAJ, TN-O, TG-O, WV-O_, etc). 

Carla, since I'm not a Dobe person and don't know much about them, may I ask a question regarding the working Doberman? I know German Shepherds are working dogs, and utilized often as police k9s, drug detection, etc. and popular in the SchH sport. Doberman Pinschers, on the other hand, are also working dogs, and while I can pull up list after list of good working German Shepherd breeders, I've honestly never known of a single working Doberman breeder. Is the Doberman's temperament not suited for SchH, as it was meant for GSDs in the first place? What about the French Ring? As PPD? They were bred for that to begin with, weren't they? Are Dobermans losing that working ability as far as the protection sports? I rarely see a Doberman in Schutzhund, and when I do, it's frankly a sad thing to see.

I considered a Doberman as my next dog once, but found the search for a working dog extremely difficult. If I do get a Dobe in the future, though, I'd strongly consider Foxfire.






VonKromeHaus said:


> You can look at the overall structure of a dog and proper angles, fronts etc. to see if they have good conformation. To do this, you would need to choose a breed that was close to them in structure and looks. So, I guess for mixed breeds the Proper Structure is a better statement and know why they don't have proper structure whether mixed or pure.
> 
> Judge is out of Echo Vom Rabauks and by Kinte Von Den Wannaer Hohen SchH2.
> 
> ...


Could you pull up a video of a European bred Doberman? I've seen several Doberman Pinschers in SchH, but cannot tell the difference. 

Frankly, though, even IF the AKC decides to follow the SV and require conformation titles and working titles, I have little faith that it would do much good. The German show line dogs can be just as bad, if not worse, than the American show lines when it comes to nerves and working ability. The courage test has become a joke, since petty politics get in the way. Although I certainly will say, there are plenty more German show lines with working ability than there are American show lines, so who knows?


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Someone is meeting up with some bad temperaments in dobies, that's all. It happens, it's sad. I could relate plenty of GSDs lacking temperament too, (and that doesn't mean mean), they exist, in unfortunately greater numbers than the best bred ones, just like any breed. FYI not a single one of my dobies was a fear biter. Anyway. That's all.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Equinox, the dobe was bred to do Schultzhund and for Police and military work, my girls grandfather and father who are Chzech bloodlines holds Int'l championships for conformation and numerous Schulz titles as well. The father was brought over here and was being shown and competingin Schulz. My girls lack of nerve comes more from evironment (she was locked in a kennel with no socailization and possibly abused until she was 6 months old) not from her breeding. 

This my girls Uncle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR3dyd5JT_c&feature=player_embedded

YOU can see the differance in the lines look at the breeders pages http://altobellodobermann.com/news2010.html

this is dad
http://www.phantomlinekennels.com/PHANTOM.html


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Sure, and by the way, those dobies, are beautiful and not all that different. There are differences between European and American lines ... not a lot, but a difference, same can be said with GSDs, and many, many, MANY other breeds, there are similar differences between various American breeders... that's a much different thing. In fact, off the 'working dog' aspect for just a second, we Papillon owners were talking in the thread in the pic forum about what look we prefer, all of the ones talked about were acceptable within the standard, not HUGELY different, but you could tell the difference.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Papilove said:


> Someone is meeting up with some bad temperaments in dobies, that's all. It happens, it's sad. I could relate plenty of GSDs lacking temperament too, (and that doesn't mean mean), they exist, in unfortunately greater numbers than the best bred ones, just like any breed. FYI not a single one of my dobies was a fear biter. Anyway. That's all.


 
Papi, I'm not talking about fear biters, I'm talking about working nerve. The willingness to grab and hold even when being beaten (watch the video I posted of Maxim) which is somewhat lacking in many American lines. I do know of some good American breeders that are bringing dogs like Maxim into their lines to help alleviate this. Also, look at Maxims front shots as wel las his side shots THAT'S the chest of a working Euro dobe and it does NOT take away from his movement. He's by far one of the most beautiful boys I've seen in many years.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

You weren't the one that mentioned fear biting, VonKromeHaus was.



VonKromeHaus said:


> In fact most AKC style Dobes I see around here are extremely nervy, they are fear biters almost.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Strange (maybe) question.... but are the working dobes whiners like the show ones I've met and known are? I had a byb dobe when I was younger, good dog, did agility and so on but he was a weenie at the best of times and the whining drove me nuts. Any dobe I've met or worked with has been the same, whine whine whine whine whine...... that and the short hair made me go to other breeds!

Lana


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Equinox, the dobe was bred to do Schultzhund and for Police and military work, my girls grandfather and father who are Chzech bloodlines holds Int'l championships for conformation and numerous Schulz titles as well. The father was brought over here and was being shown and competingin Schulz. My girls lack of nerve comes more from evironment (she was locked in a kennel with no socailization and possibly abused until she was 6 months old) not from her breeding.
> 
> This my girls Uncle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR3dyd5JT_c&feature=player_embedded
> 
> ...


But IF Dobermans should, as you say, do well in Schutzhund and was bred for police and military work, why is it that only a small handful of breeders successfully produce working Dobermans? In comparison to the GSD working line breeders, the amount of working line Dobe breeders are very, very small. In a group of 50 Schutzhund dogs, probably 2-3 are Doberman Pinschers and probably only 1 does it well. 

This is not a criticism of the breed. This is an honest question formed from my experience. I won't pretend to know anything about the breed, because I don't. But it confuses me because I do know Doberman Pinschers were created for the purpose of protection training, more so than GSDs and Belgian Mals are. But you rarely see them utilized as much, and most breeders of Dobes seem to be breeding for the show ring or a performance sport instead. I have no problem with that, but would like to know *why*.

By the way, thank you for the link. I can definitely see the difference between the lines now, never noticed it before. And thank you for the video link, that dog does a much better job than most other Doberman Pinschers I've seen. No weak nerves there!


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Bordermom said:


> Strange (maybe) question.... but are the working dobes whiners like the show ones I've met and known are? I had a byb dobe when I was younger, good dog, did agility and so on but he was a weenie at the best of times and the whining drove me nuts. Any dobe I've met or worked with has been the same, whine whine whine whine whine...... that and the short hair made me go to other breeds!
> 
> Lana


Man, I'll admit it's been 20 years since I've been in the ring, and only had my remaining dogs as pets until they passed a few years back. Then we just decided to finally get over the pain and get another dog... but I sure hope the breed hasn't turned into the simpering, quivering, whining puddles of black and tan fur that it seems people feel they are on here now. That's sad.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

My favorite working Doberman at the moment- Eiko vom Landgraft. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSSESpM9z2g&feature=channel_page Video at 11 months.
Did a seminar with him last year, FANTASTIC working dog, regardless of his breed. Her female, Covae, is also super nice. I would own, feed, and work, either of those dogs.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Equinox said:


> But IF Dobermans should, as you say, do well in Schutzhund and was bred for police and military work, why is it that only a small handful of breeders successfully produce working Dobermans? In comparison to the GSD working line breeders, the amount of working line Dobe breeders are very, very small. In a group of 50 Schutzhund dogs, probably 2-3 are Doberman Pinschers and probably only 1 does it well.
> 
> This is not a criticism of the breed. This is an honest question formed from my experience. I won't pretend to know anything about the breed, because I don't. But it confuses me because I do know Doberman Pinschers were created for the purpose of protection training, more so than GSDs and Belgian Mals are. But you rarely see them utilized as much, and most breeders of Dobes seem to be breeding for the show ring or a performance sport instead. I have no problem with that, but would like to know *why*.
> 
> By the way, thank you for the link. I can definitely see the difference between the lines now, never noticed it before. And thank you for the video link, that dog does a much better job than most other Doberman Pinschers I've seen. No weak nerves there!


American lines are bred to be 'softer' in temperment, it has meant that they've lost alot of their nerve as most Americans want a dog thay can take to the cafe with them. If you are seriously looking at a Dobe to do Sch. work, I'd go to lines like Altobello. They're drivey dogs that are still great with the family and when properly introduced with close friends.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Equinox said:


> But IF Dobermans should, as you say, do well in Schutzhund and was bred for police and military work, why is it that only a small handful of breeders successfully produce working Dobermans? In comparison to the GSD working line breeders, the amount of working line Dobe breeders are very, very small. In a group of 50 Schutzhund dogs, probably 2-3 are Doberman Pinschers and probably only 1 does it well.
> 
> This is not a criticism of the breed. This is an honest question formed from my experience. I won't pretend to know anything about the breed, because I don't. But it confuses me because I do know Doberman Pinschers were created for the purpose of protection training, more so than GSDs and Belgian Mals are. But you rarely see them utilized as much, and most breeders of Dobes seem to be breeding for the show ring or a performance sport instead. I have no problem with that, but would like to know *why*.
> 
> By the way, thank you for the link. I can definitely see the difference between the lines now, never noticed it before. And thank you for the video link, that dog does a much better job than most other Doberman Pinschers I've seen. No weak nerves there!


My husband wanted a Doberman when he started in schutzhund. We looked. And looked. And looked. (15 years ago or so) And he brought home a GSD instead. Over the years, MOST of the Dobermans I have trained with are a bit goofy. Grips can be ok, drive can look ok, but then you send them in the blind and they circle it a few times and bounce back to the handler. Or, saw this last year, they're tracking, looks nice, suddenly you have a DEER moment, and the dog is bounding around in a big circle just having a lot of fun, having completely forgotten about the task at hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i95mDYV9FhE

This video is perhaps a bit in bad taste, but can also serve to illustrate some of the issues in the working lines of this breed. Keep in mind, this is the German CHAMPIONSHIP, not a local trial. Not all working Dobermans are like this, but the exceptions are sometimes difficult to find.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Yeah my dobe had his 'deer' moments. Doing flyball, he wasn't super fast but he was consistant. I kid you not, he went down, got the ball, came over two jumps and stopped dead in his tracks, dropped the ball, walked around the last two jumps and NEVER played the game again. It was like something clicked in his brain that he was 'done' with the game and that was that. Agility, he'd do ok but hated the teeter, got over that one. We were doing a game where one dog ran the inside for points while the other dog from another team ran the outside for time. He did ten rounds and we were close to being in the winners, he went up the wall and STOPPED and enjoyed the smell of KFC while I begged and everyone bust a gut laughing at the whole thing - the other times he was fast and consistant......

Lana


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh Mal, that's just too funny!!!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> This makes sense to me. Docking performance because of looks is like grimping about a hitter with a good batting average and production because his stance isn't pretty. What difference does it make? As long as the job gets done, it's that what matters, at least in the "practical" world? And why don't the standards, especially for working-type (working, sporting, herding) groups include drive or fitness to perform breed job? Why is it just guessing based on looks? Let the dog demonstrate his ability. I think we need a new type of "conformation" in the sport - one for looks/form and one for actual ability to do his breed's work.


then you arent really understanding the concept of conformation. it actually makes a lot of difference. at least in my breed, its NOT "just guessing based on looks"

read this very carefully:
http://www.apbtconformation.com/leverage.htm






> Just a question - what would be the conformation of a mixed dog? Assuming you even know what mixes he is, how would you know how much of what mix the dog got, especially to the level of knowing what his conformation should be?


like ms mutt says , there's a more general sort of body assessment.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks for the lesson on Doberman Pinschers, everyone. And man, that dog Eiko is one NICE dog. I like.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> then you arent really understanding the concept of conformation. it actually makes a lot of difference. at least in my breed, its NOT "just guessing based on looks"
> 
> read this very carefully:
> http://www.apbtconformation.com/leverage.htm
> ...


I'm not trying to say that it's guessing based on looks. I understand conformation to be a great deal more than that. Just, as far as priorities go, how a dog actually performs > the assessment that dictates how a dog may or should perform. For me, personally. 

I won't pretend to know more about conformation than you do, Zim!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Equinox said:


> I'm not trying to say that it's guessing based on looks. I understand conformation to be a great deal more than that. Just, as far as priorities go, how a dog actually performs > the assessment that dictates how a dog may or should perform. For me, personally.


but here's the question..should this particular dog be allowed to attempt to perform?

Im thinking about this in a long term sort of way..

like for example..straight hock vs well bent hocks...and by straight hocks i mean this :







doesnt have a good bend.

this is frankly mean to put a dog with really straight hocks through high impact physical exercise. long term its a threat to their health.

why? because of simple physics. that angle is extremely poorly suited in terms of the ability to absorb force. you run an exponentially higher risk of severely damaging the joint with repeated high impact activity.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Structure and conformation, to me, have a lot to do with how well the dog holds up under the load of work. I'm sure you've heard the brags "he was in so much pain I had to carry him off the field, but he ran on _heart_," and that's a terrible thing to do to a dog. Stories of dogs competing despite crippling hip dysplasia. Why put the best brain in a crappy body if you can get both?

You really need both. Going to an extreme in any matter is asking for trouble.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

raeganw said:


> structure and conformation, to me, have a lot to do with how well the dog holds up under the load of work. I'm sure you've heard the brags "he was in so much pain i had to carry him off the field, but he ran on _heart_," and that's a terrible thing to do to a dog. Stories of dogs competing despite crippling hip dysplasia. Why put the best brain in a crappy body if you can get both?
> 
> You really need both. Going to an extreme in any matter is asking for trouble.



^^^yes! This!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I think Xeph mentioned experiencing something semi-similar with Strauss, and how he rips his paw pads in the front if exercised for too long. In cases like that, I would certainly hope that the breeder knows enough to avoid that. I don't mean conformational faults so severe they are a huge thread to the dog's health. I mean characteristics like light colored eyes, a steep croup, and cow hocks, which are common faults in the GSD breed, and faults many good working dogs posses. But it doesn't damage their working ability or their health.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Equinox said:


> I think Xeph mentioned experiencing something semi-similar with Strauss, and how he rips his paw pads in the front if exercised for too long. In cases like that, I would certainly hope that the breeder knows enough to avoid that. I don't mean conformational faults so severe they are a huge thread to the dog's health. I mean characteristics like light colored eyes, a steep croup, and cow hocks, which are common faults in the GSD breed, and faults many good working dogs posses. But it doesn't damage their working ability or their health.


eye color i agree with..the croup and hocks i can see having an impact. the croup indicates the positioning of the pelvis. a steep croup would indicate a pelvis that again is poorly suited for high impact activity..and by high impact activity i mean thinks like agility and certain areas of shutzhund.

cow hocks affect gait. the appearance of something like cow hocks is directly tied to how well the leg fits into the hip assembly..

i totally dont agree with all conformation..but i do agree with confo that impacts BOTH health and working ability.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Equinox said:


> I think Xeph mentioned experiencing something semi-similar with Strauss, and how he rips his paw pads in the front if exercised for too long. In cases like that, I would certainly hope that the breeder knows enough to avoid that. I don't mean conformational faults so severe they are a huge thread to the dog's health. I mean characteristics like light colored eyes, a steep croup, and cow hocks, which are common faults in the GSD breed, and faults many good working dogs posses. But it doesn't damage their working ability or their health.


I totally agree with that. What a dog DOES do is more important than what it MIGHT do. I think some things are in standards because of tradition, and I'm kind of on the fence about that. I guess it's sort of like breeding for color. It's fine to have a personal preference, but you have to decide what you're willing to give up for it.

For an example that really gets my goat, Dalmatians. I believe the uric acid problem is genetically tied to the preferred size and spacing of spots, and part of the objection to the Pointer outcross was the spot distribution is different (bigger and tend to run together). Stupid, infuriating, and bad for dogs.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> For an example that really gets my goat, Dalmatians. I believe the uric acid problem is genetically tied to the preferred size and spacing of spots, and part of the objection to the Pointer outcross was the spot distribution is different (bigger and tend to run together). Stupid, infuriating, and bad for dogs.


Well, there ARE people who breed LUA Dals, they're just pariahs in AKC circles. I believe the UKC allows them, as does the KC.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Pai said:


> Well, there ARE people who breed LUA Dals, they're just pariahs in AKC circles. I believe the UKC allows them, as does the KC.


I think you're correct. And OH, it just makes me SO UPSET. I'm not intimately familiar with the history of it, but I was looking at Dals as a second dog for a while (just cuz they're pretty ) and didn't the AKC Dalmatian club APPROVE the outcross, and then didn't let the dogs register? URRRRG. *facepalm*


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the only time the idea of breeding in regard to color doesnt absolutely disgust me is in regards to things like merle..when its indicative of a deeper health issue.

Xeph and i were talking about this a while back...using the example of white GSDs. there's really no reason a white GSD isnt a GSD.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> I'm not intimately familiar with the history of it, but I was looking at Dals as a second dog for a while (just cuz they're pretty ) and didn't the AKC Dalmatian club APPROVE the outcross, and then didn't let the dogs register? URRRRG. *facepalm*


The AKC approved recognition, but the Dal club (which had final say) voted NO and banned all discussion of the topic forever after (for reals). The vote to disallow the LUA dogs was very close to 50/50 split, I hear, so not _all _the club members were against it.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

My aunt bred Dobermans for a while. But I don't remember what she bred for or what kind.


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## cherryhill (Aug 21, 2009)

> Here is one of the most striking aussies I have ever seen and one of my favorite examples of color. CH Howard's Wanagi-ishna Ghosteyes "Indy" and of course that beautiful ear set and carrage!


This is my madison's Great great Grandsire. I think she resembles him in many ways. I absolutly love this boy so handsome!!!

/Amanda


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph and i were talking about this a while back...using the example of white GSDs. there's really no reason a white GSD isnt a GSD.


Ayup, and AKC is not interested in adding "Varieties" anymore, so the GSDCA either needs to overturn the DQ on whites, or they have to be accepted as a new breed.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Zim, don't get me wrong. I 110% agree that conformation has an impact on health and working ability. Never said otherwise. Just trying to say that not all aspects of a dog's conformation will make an impact, and when you watch a dog work and evaluate its conformation, it's something to keep in mind. Now HOW a breeder will prioritize these attributes, is their own decision and opinion. I completely respect that. Just voicing mine 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Xeph and i were talking about this a while back...using the example of white GSDs. there's really no reason a white GSD isnt a GSD.


Oh doG. I do not even want to think about the whole issue of white GSDs vs. White Shepherds/White Swiss Shepherds. A white GSD is a German Shepherd, and I support the breeders who breed, show, and exhibit their whites as such. The breeders of whites I know see their dogs as German Shepherds first and have mentioned leaving the breed altogether if they become an entirely separate breed because that is not what they believe in. They also do not offer stud service or sell puppies to those who show and breed and exhibit their dogs as White Shepherds.

I don't necessarily have as strong of an opinion in this field, but there are two parties to the white GSD vs White Shepherd debate, and a lot of people don't realize this (I know Xeph and you, Zim, do).


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Equinox said:


> Zim, don't get me wrong. I 110% agree that conformation has an impact on health and working ability. Never said otherwise. Just trying to say that not all aspects of a dog's conformation will make an impact, and when you watch a dog work and evaluate its conformation, it's something to keep in mind. Now HOW a breeder will prioritize these attributes, is their own decision and opinion. I completely respect that. Just voicing mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


like...the exclusion of White GSD is ridiculous imo. I understand like for example..the APBT standards exlude merle coloration. this is for two very significant reasons. a. historically there has been NO merle recorded in pit bulls untill recently..the origin of merle in the breed is the catahoula catch dog crosses people try to pass off as pure APBT. the reason why they decided NOT to recognize these unsanctioned crosses is there is a preference not to introduce a gene like merle which can cause birth defects if idiotic breeding practices are employed and in a breed at risk like APBT are..that's a significant concern...i understand and support decisions about color based on that type of reasoning...but there's no health issues known to be linked with white(we arent talking albinos here) so why the heck is a white GSD such a bad thing?

like..i think its a TERRIBLE waste to dq a dog based on color preference alone...like when i was talking to Xeph the example came up of "what if you've got a conformationally stellar, temperamentally amazing white GSD in PERFECT health with excellent health scores? why waste all that good solid genetic material based on one thing that..if you breed this dog to an appropriate colored dog, you will likely get at least one pup with both the color you want and the White dog's beautiful structure, temperament and health?"

its ridiculous..and im not like..targeting you Equinox...it just sort of gets me sometimes because i see a LOT of one side or the other...why not breed for a TOTAL dog? one that excells in EVERYTHING? im very much a working dog type person. i like my dogs drivey, capable and i dont want _just_ a pet. there's nothing wrong with just having a pet but i think that all dogs should be bred with being a total dog in mind. dunno..kinda ranting at this point but its just a bit of a sore point with me...


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

People think it's a bad thing because a lot of them are die-hard AKC standards is law type. The other party believe in total misconceptions of the color. I know of many white GSDs that are excellent examples of the breed, and if they were cast off due to color, it'd be a damn shame.

I don't know, Zim. I think I'm just not expressing myself in the right manner. Because believe it or not, I see myself more in agreement with you than disagreement. I want the total dog, and that's what I want breeders to aim for. That's what I'd support the next time I buy a pup. Ideally, that's what I want, yes. I also like my dogs drivey, capable of working, with strong nerves AND good conformation. If I didn't think conformation held much value in a dog's overall breeding worth, I wouldn't defend those who breed primarily for conformation... 

I'm just saying, in a breed like the GSD you may get the full package. But often, you don't. Breeders end up making compromises one way or the other, and the working line breeders and the breeders I turn to will sooner compromise on conformation than they would on working ability. None of them breed dogs that are literally perfect in every single manner of conformation and work and health and temperament. I don't think there has been many (if any) of those dogs. So some breeders sacrifice or disregard a detail of conformation in breeding for a working litter because that's usually the best it's going to get, for them and their goals. 

I want the full package, too. I stress for the TOTAL DOG. But just as you aren't going to have many AKC Ch. doing protection work, the large majority of working line dogs aren't going to be AKC Ch. Not just because of politics and bias, but because they may not fit the standard as well as a dog bred primarily for show should. Yes, many breeders in Germany breed for both work and conformation. That's what I like to see, as well. But sometimes, with working ability and conformation, you end up making allowances one way or the other. 

So I'm just saying - yes, I DO want the total dog, and yes, ideally, that's what you end up getting in every litter with every breeding. But there are plenty of problems in the breed as it is, and if a breeder ends up having to compromise, I'd rather it be conformation than working ability. Conformation has value. It does, and I have always acknowledged that. It has great value. But I, personally, would not value it as much as I would genuine working ability *IF* it comes down to the two. 

I'm not trying to argue with you, Zim. Might come off as so, but I'm not. I just feel like my thoughts are being misunderstood and that I actually do believe in what you are saying as well. Don't know, though, might be mistaken and we are thinking fo two different things altogether.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

with me its more of a beef with a sort of mentality that seems rampant in the AKC...which is by far my least favorite registry.

Im not trying to argue with you either lol..im not actually arguing with you at all. perhaps in the fine points of things like cow hocks lol..but that's just because i can see a negative impact on working ability from being cowhocked...mainly that it affects gait in a fashion that wastes energy and results in lower endurance. Im just..an anal retentive perfectionist when it comes to dog breeding lol...


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Okay - got it. Just wanted you to know I am (mostly) in agreement with you  

Some of our opinions may differ, but I fully respect your opinion and knowledge on the conformation aspects of any breed, and learn a lot from your posts.

And yes... while some of the UKC stuff is complete crap (thinking of GSDs here), in the end, I still prefer most other registries to the AKC.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

This dog is a dead ringer - conformation wise, to a dog a friend of mine owns, and that I usually keep about 2 months of the year. They are related, but by pedigree really not that closely. I wanted someone to look at the hocks on this dog - still a puppy actually in the stacked photo (and any other comments would be welcome to). Too straight? 

The Cavalier breed is often criticized for having too many with poor rear movement. I believe that is the case with the one I babysit. Its a 'head' breed and I believe too often movement is overlooked.



















Here is another, a top UK puppy, and I see, again, hocks too straight. It might just be me, which is why I'm asking. It might also be poor angles and stacking.










And another:










SOB


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Actually, the issue is not the hock, but the stifle. Hocks SHOULD be straight (sickle hocks are bad, unless there's some weird breed out there that calls for them).

Turn of stifle is what lends to rear angulation. Dogs that basically have no turn of stifle and really shouldn't be shown in sports like agility are Chow Chows and Chinese Shar Pei. They're not builtfor that kind of work.

The Ruby Cavalier is overstacked, which detracts from whatever angulation the dog DOES have. I would say that dog is likely very straight in the rear and could use a touch more. The Blenheim dog is better.


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## VonKromeHaus (Feb 8, 2010)

This IMHO is a NICE Dobe!! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FEE1rYp64U&feature=related

I wouldn't hesitate to feed her at all. Also there is Butch Henderson(I believe) who does DVG with his Dobes who are AWESOME. I wasn;t saying all Dobes are bad as I do like them but IMHO to find a good WORKABLE one is VERY VERY hard and I do see a ton of them that are near fear biters.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Actually, the issue is not the hock, but the stifle. Hocks SHOULD be straight (sickle hocks are bad, unless there's some weird breed out there that calls for them).


hock joint was was what i was speaking of..minor oops...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Dogs that basically have no turn of stifle and really shouldn't be shown in sports like agility


Ok, that is like the 3rd time I've seen this mentioned in this thread and it's starting to scare me!

How bad is her rear, really? She looks like her stifle is pretty darn straight..


















OT but I have been meaning to get gaiting vids for the longest time.. Zim has asked me more than once for them..


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Coming to the cavalier from a papillon perspective, but it's overstretched in the back which makes it look even straighter than it is. The stack is bad- the hock should be perpendicular to the ground.

My Summer is a touch straight in the rear though not that bad. Her movement is rather choppy and not nearly as efficient as Mia.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Ok, that is like the 3rd time I've seen this mentioned in this thread and it's starting to scare me!
> 
> How bad is her rear, really? She looks like her stifle is pretty darn straight..
> 
> ...


she's not TOTALLY straight..which if you look at a dog like a Shar Pei por ejemplo..










you can see Marge isnt bad but she isnt ideal either.....


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Ahh, I do see some difference.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> then you arent really understanding the concept of conformation. it actually makes a lot of difference. at least in my breed, its NOT "just guessing based on looks"


Then why not actually let the dog do the work he supposed to be bred for and THEN judge him?

Let the dog show what he/she can do, then judge that performance. Is that so wrong?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

So as not to confuse the hell out of an amateur photograph gazer (I prefer to see the dogs on the move) who is not up on terminology, Zim, is this where the terminology should be hock 'joint' and not hocks? 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> but here's the question..should this particular dog be allowed to attempt to perform?
> 
> Im thinking about this in a long term sort of way..
> 
> ...





Xeph said:


> Actually, the issue is not the hock, but the stifle. Hocks SHOULD be straight (sickle hocks are bad, unless there's some weird breed out there that calls for them).
> 
> Turn of stifle is what lends to rear angulation. Dogs that basically have no turn of stifle and really shouldn't be shown in sports like agility are Chow Chows and Chinese Shar Pei. They're not builtfor that kind of work.
> 
> The Ruby Cavalier is overstacked, which detracts from whatever angulation the dog DOES have. I would say that dog is likely very straight in the rear and could use a touch more. The Blenheim dog is better.





zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> hock joint was was what i was speaking of..minor oops...


???

I know where the stifle joint is but what is turn of stifle, what is no turn of stifle, can it be seen in a photograph and HOW does it affect rear angulation? Does it refer to of the amount of bend in the stifle joint?

SOB


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> ???
> 
> I know where the stifle joint is but what is turn of stifle, and HOW does it affect rear angulation?
> 
> SOB


This might help.

http://www.apbtconformation.com/rearstudy1.htm


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> So as not to confuse the hell out of an amateur photograph gazer (I prefer to see the dogs on the move) who is not up on terminology, Zim, is this where the terminology should be hock 'joint' and not hocks?
> 
> I know where the stifle joint is but what is turn of stifle, and HOW does it affect rear angulation?
> 
> SOB


yeah sorry..hock joint is just another way of saying stifle joint . my mentor says "hock joint" and i kinda picked up on it that way



KBLover said:


> Then why not actually let the dog do the work he supposed to be bred for and THEN judge him?
> 
> Let the dog show what he/she can do, then judge that performance. Is that so wrong?


because if the body is poorly built and you run him through the kind of testing you do when you put a dog through work..you're going to hurt him. it may not be immediately apparent..but it is a common occurance...dog gets put through serious work and then goes crippling arthritic at an age you wouldnt expect.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> yeah sorry..hock joint is just another way of saying stifle joint . my mentor says "hock joint" and i kinda picked up on it that way


Hock joint and stifle joint are not the same joint. The stifle is the "knee" in the hind leg, the hock is the "ankle".










Here G is the Stifle, and F is the hock.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> because if the body is poorly built and you run him through the kind of testing you do when you put a dog through work..you're going to hurt him. it may not be immediately apparent..but it is a common occurance...dog gets put through serious work and then goes crippling arthritic at an age you wouldnt expect.



But even a perfect body doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be good at his breed purpose. 

Never mind about breeds that have seperate "show" vs "working" lines (as I've read about often mentioned on the forums) - why would that be necessary if the standards equaled breed purpose? Why would there need to be breeding "for work" and breeding "for show"? 

Yes, I'm quite confused - it's not adding up in my mind.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks Missmutt for the link. While I find it easy to pick up a dog with something I see as stifled movement when I see them actually moving, I certainly cannot see what is trying to be shown and described in the photos.

A question, is the turn of stifle referring to the amount of angulation away from or toward the body at the location of the stifle joint?

SOB


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> A question, is the turn of stifle referring to the amount of angulation away from or toward the body at the location of the stifle joint?
> 
> SOB


This dog, when you look at the stifle joint, is curvy. Perhaps a bit more "turn" there than the boxer shown above.










In comparison- the German Shepherd below has a very pronounced turn of stifle so much so that the leg in between the stifle joint and the hock are now parallel to the ground when the hock is perpendicular. Turn of stifle is exactly what gives the American show GSD the angulation.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Maliraptor said:


> This dog, when you look at the stifle joint, is curvy. Perhaps a bit more "turn" there than the boxer shown above.


Thank you, then it is about the angulation of the stifle that can be seen by the curve . . . I can get that.

I still find many Cavaliers are too straight at the hock joint. As I've not ever studied the stifles that might be another complication.

I do find, as someone who observed working ranch collies much of my life, fronts on many of these dogs in the diagrams are also much straighter than I like to see. They just don't look functional. I'm going to have to go look at some working collie photos now to see if its just in my mind.

Yeah, its just me . . . . I tend to favor a wider front with a slight turn out.

SOB


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

I added another pic, took me a minute to find it. You'll find that generally, the more curve of stifle, the less straight the hock is.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

http://www.pennylanecollies.net/RearAssembly.html

_But even a perfect body doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be good at his breed purpose. 

Never mind about breeds that have seperate "show" vs "working" lines (as I've read about often mentioned on the forums) - why would that be necessary if the standards equaled breed purpose? Why would there need to be breeding "for work" and breeding "for show"? 

Yes, I'm quite confused - it's not adding up in my mind. _

Because as it is now, often the two worlds (working and show) don't mix. You have breeders that only breed for show OR working and not both. As a rule anyway. The breed standards and what is considered 'show' is different than what is bred for working and soon you have very different looking dogs. 

Goldens for example, the field dogs look more like 







while the show dogs look like








Similar dogs but the show dogs tend to be bigger and have more coat, good for show but doesn't work so well for running through brush and working all day. However the working lines don't always have the greatest conformation (but run on heart and drive...).

I like to say I have both, she may not have as much bone and coat as a show dog, which is fine with me, but boy can she move and run and carry birds without a problem...

Lana


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Bordermom said:


> http://www.pennylanecollies.net/RearAssembly.html



GREAT link, BTW.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> But even a perfect body doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be good at his breed purpose.
> 
> Never mind about breeds that have seperate "show" vs "working" lines (as I've read about often mentioned on the forums) - why would that be necessary if the standards equaled breed purpose? Why would there need to be breeding "for work" and breeding "for show"?
> 
> Yes, I'm quite confused - it's not adding up in my mind.


its not adding up because what im expressing is a rare ideal. there are breeds where the conformation has no basis in scientific principle...but in those breeds where conformation IS based on sound scientific principle...its a big deal. its a starting point, a way to determine if the dog is fit to even try to work...if a dog is a high risk for physical damage due to high impact activity.....then do you want to risk that dog's pain? do you want to risk that dog failing in the field due to physical infirmity? i personally dont.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Another one for border collie fans. (This thread is so long it might be a duplicate).

http://www.crystalledge.com/BreedExtention.htm#4quarters

SOB


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Bordermom said:


> I like to say I have both, she may not have as much bone and coat as a show dog, which is fine with me, but boy can she move and run and carry birds without a problem...
> 
> Lana


 Yeah, what is it with breeds with feathering/moderate coat that end up in the show ring? Coat seems to grow ridiculously huge after a while. This problem is even in Cresteds, both Powderpuff _and_ Hairless. It's like 'moderate' stops being good enough and the dogs end up looking like furballs that have to be trimmed all the time to match the standard.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> its not adding up because what im expressing is a rare ideal. there are breeds where the conformation has no basis in scientific principle...but in those breeds where conformation IS based on sound scientific principle...its a big deal. its a starting point, a way to determine if the dog is fit to even try to work...if a dog is a high risk for physical damage due to high impact activity.....then do you want to risk that dog's pain? do you want to risk that dog failing in the field due to physical infirmity? i personally dont.



I see your point and wouldn't want to hurt dogs by any means.

I'm just saying the 'confirmation to a breed purpose' should include both structure AND actual performance. I mean a herder that can't herd well isn't fulfilling his breed purpose even though he has a quality and sound structure and excellent movement - just like a batting stance that fits the physical and biomechanical potential to create power and balance doesn't mean a thing if you can't put the bat on the ball. 

No idea what you'd call it - Utiliy Confirmation I guess? Where the dog is judged on his physical conformation and structure, then if he passes snuff on that, he then gets a field trial for what his purpose may be. The combination of those two would indicate a dog that both physically and by ability fills his breed purpose. And considering (I imagine) at the high levels of the sport, there won't be any faults so severe that it would harm the dog, even down the road, to take part (those dogs get washed out in the 'minors' so to speak, they'd never win, never move on to higher levels, etc), I think the risk of injury would be low.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I see your point and wouldn't want to hurt dogs by any means.
> 
> I'm just saying the 'confirmation to a breed purpose' should include both structure AND actual performance. I mean a herder that can't herd well isn't fulfilling his breed purpose even though he has a quality and sound structure and excellent movement - just like a batting stance that fits the physical and biomechanical potential to create power and balance doesn't mean a thing if you can't put the bat on the ball.
> 
> No idea what you'd call it - Utiliy Confirmation I guess? Where the dog is judged on his physical conformation and structure, then if he passes snuff on that, he then gets a field trial for what his purpose may be. The combination of those two would indicate a dog that both physically and by ability fills his breed purpose. And considering (I imagine) at the high levels of the sport, there won't be any faults so severe that it would harm the dog, even down the road, to take part (those dogs get washed out in the 'minors' so to speak), I think the risk of injury would be low.


you arent actual arguing with me in anything but the order of assessment. the entire purpose of sound conformation is to assess physical fitness. then once the dog is affirmed to be physically fit, then you put the dog to work to determine whether or not he can. and by conformation..im not really even talking about showing...because showing is fraught with misconceptions and bastardizations of what conformation should be. the only thing a show title indicates is that the owner is interested in being active with the dog in some venue...showing is also fun..

what im talking about is assessment for physical fitness in regards to your breeding specimens. there are show judges i would show under and take them seriously. Dr. Scott Dowd, the guy who instigated and maintains the APBT conformation website would be an example of one..but that's because he's demonstrated that he knows wtf he is talking about. 

what im talking about isnt really show conformation though. i can have a dog with STELLAR conformation and no title and a dog with piss poor confo with a dual GrCH. the untitled dog is still better. 

my thing is putting dogs where they are most suited to be. my puppy that im getting...her confo will be watched. she will be carefully raised and trained until such time as she has reached adulthood with the basics of all the avenues of activity i want to pursue with her. then she's going to be assessed by MY standards. physical soundness as determined by a sports vet. endurance, speed, natural agility, drive etc..all tested to the standards i feel far surpass those of the conformation ring. then, she'll be shown as a test of her willingness to be handled by strangers and her obedience. then i will pursue sporting activities with her to further her versatility and further assess her abilities. then..if all of this fits the bill...THEN i will put her to work in my desired avenues.

why all the anal retentive exactingness? because i dont want to start out working a dog that has the odds stacked against her. i want to work with a dog who has been set up to succeed. and if she then fails the final tests or washes out...so be it...start over..but i will be happy in the knowledge that i brought her up in such a way that prepared her and trained her for the work ahead in such a way that she had more of a chance to come out of it with no physical or psychological damage. 

going straight to work is like you getting a job a resturant and the manager goes "ok, you're the cook..get to it". and then walks away. you of course flounder and scramble and bumble and make mistakes and piss people off..because you're not prepared. 

ya get me?


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Eerrr bump for staffy and bull terrier examples


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

foxthegoldfish said:


> Eerrr bump for staffy and bull terrier examples


sorry..brains not functioning this week...


Staffordshire Bull Terrier









UWP GRCH Nevada's Save the Cheerleader
"Claire"

AKC/UKC registered
UKC Grand Champion, UKC United Weight Puller
#1 in 2009 Top Ten
#2 in 2008 Top Ten
Multiple Best in Show winner
Multiple Total Dog Winner
L2HGA clear









byb dog


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

I wish someone would post a BYB bred Rough Collie and a Well bred Rough Collie


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5285780&id=243628751517 <--Well bred Smooth Collie

Well bred Rough Collie









BYB Collie


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> Another one for border collie fans. (This thread is so long it might be a duplicate).
> 
> http://www.crystalledge.com/BreedExtention.htm#4quarters
> 
> SOB


Most working bcs won't look a thing like that though.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you arent actual arguing with me in anything but the order of assessment. the entire purpose of sound conformation is to assess physical fitness. then once the dog is affirmed to be physically fit, then you put the dog to work to determine whether or not he can. and by conformation..im not really even talking about showing...because showing is fraught with misconceptions and bastardizations of what conformation should be. the only thing a show title indicates is that the owner is interested in being active with the dog in some venue...showing is also fun..
> 
> what im talking about is assessment for physical fitness in regards to your breeding specimens. there are show judges i would show under and take them seriously. Dr. Scott Dowd, the guy who instigated and maintains the APBT conformation website would be an example of one..but that's because he's demonstrated that he knows wtf he is talking about.
> 
> ...



I get ya and I don't think I'm arguing even the order with you, as I (now) understand what true physical conformation is in your mind (conformation to the principles of biomechanics with specifics based on APBT's physical traits).

Basically, what I'm arguing for/about isn't with you, per se, Zim, but it's the idea of how "traditional AKC conformation" (i.e. dog shows) judge how a dog is the best example of his breed and purpose in relation to the biomechanics and all this I've been exposed to with reach and where the feet should land, etc. Some standards mention it (like with the Great Dane) while some don't like the Komondor which I never heard of until now (Cool Corded Coat!)

What YOU mentioned, Zim, is what I would like to see - all those tests of structure, temperament, drive, physical abilities (speed, power, agility, etc) would be much more of an indication as at least we are getting an insight to perfromance traits that would be good on their job (and fun and educational to watch!)

If traditional standards won't all change to accompany this (new?) knowledge, then I say create a new sport with this information at its heart and run the dogs through the tests you mentioned (structure, physical form, speed, power, drive, endurance, temperament). Hey, maybe call it the Canine Olympics. 

Anyway, that's more what I was arguing. I understand not just going straight to work then evaluating if the dog has the right body to their work. I just didn't see any evaluation of ability to their work as part of the AKC conformation - which I would like changed (like one poster mentioned where GSDs had to pass both show and field before getting their titles, if AKC did that - I'd probably have nothing to say).


P.S. I can't look at Wally the same way anymore LOL. When I was bathing him, I was looking at his body and such (since wet, his hair lays against his body and I can actually see the little dog until all that hair. Of course, Wally wasn't to thrilled with that - he wanted me to hurry up and be done!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Most working bcs won't look a thing like that though.


Yeah, I kind of laughed when it went into details about coat and head . . . . after I got over being astounded that it actually did so, but I guess there are people wanting to define this breed by conformation points. I happen to like the land race, defined by how they do their job, and have loved and seen at work gorgeous sound border collies that wouldn't meet THAT standard. I sadly watched the tail end of the working rough collies as, IMHO, the best parts became lost . . . . would prefer to not see this in the Border Collies, but that is a different thread.

"Big one, little one, handsome one, ugly ones, long-coated, short-coated: nobody gave a damn. How's his outrun? Can he read sheep? Can he move a rank old cow?" - Don McCaig, Dog Wars 

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Wars-Border-Battled-American/product-reviews/0979469007

SOB


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

KBLover said:


> P.S. I can't look at Wally the same way anymore LOL. When I was bathing him, I was looking at his body and such (since wet, his hair lays against his body and I can actually see the little dog until all that hair. Of course, Wally wasn't to thrilled with that - he wanted me to hurry up and be done!


Haha, I've been doing the same thing, watching them and thinking things like "How much turn of stifle does Pip have, anyway?" I think I'm creeping them out staring at their back legs all the time, now.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

You also won't find as many working border collies with health clearances. Those breeders will say if the dog can chase sheep and work, it cannot possibly have hip problems or eye problems or anything of the sort (one actually told me doing conformation was a direct cause of HD). Even though their dogs often aren't fed well, are kept on chains in the yard and only worked for 20 minutes or so a day.

The show ones tend to have all their clearances and the breeders are more concerned with health and finding good homes for their pups (not simply selling them at a sheepdog trial to whoever). Yes, those dogs tend to be barbie collies but the health to me is more important (and the show border collies can and do work sheep).

I think it's a case of what you're more concerned with when looking for a family pet.

Lana


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KBLover said:


> But even a perfect body doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be good at his breed purpose.
> 
> Never mind about breeds that have seperate "show" vs "working" lines (as I've read about often mentioned on the forums) - why would that be necessary if the standards equaled breed purpose? Why would there need to be breeding "for work" and breeding "for show"?
> 
> Yes, I'm quite confused - it's not adding up in my mind.


Well, for one show lines tend to be less drivey and make better houshold pets, The one thaing I ca nsay about most show line dobes is that they are very friendly when properly socailized, where as even superbly socailized working dobes tent to be aloof to stangers though they still eagerly seek attention from their families. They are not the social butterflies their show cousins tend to be.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Haha, I've been doing the same thing, watching them and thinking things like "How much turn of stifle does Pip have, anyway?" I think I'm creeping them out staring at their back legs all the time, now.


For real.

I've been fondling Wally's legs all day trying to feel the curves and angles and such. And when we went out walking, I would try to get in front of him and look back so I can see how his front paws move. When side by side, I try to see if he's not swaying in the rear or bouncing (maybe a little bouncing, but I don't know the Coton standard on that, maybe some bouncing is normal in the breed). I started into a light jog which got him into a light jog and I could see how his paws were moving. They did converge closer to the center just like his standard says they should do. I don't know what his reach should be, but it looks like the back paws are hitting just behind where the front paw was. This was one time I WANTED to find some mud to walk through, then I could read his paw prints...

When I WANT a white dog to walk through mud - I have officially gone insane.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Editted - for another thread another time.

SOB


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Pai said:


> Yeah, what is it with breeds with feathering/moderate coat that end up in the show ring? Coat seems to grow ridiculously huge after a while. This problem is even in Cresteds, both Powderpuff _and_ Hairless. *It's like 'moderate' stops being good enough* and the dogs end up looking like furballs that have to be trimmed all the time to match the standard.


Thisthisthisthisthis. It's not just coat, it's _everything_. This is why you have to breed for the total dog, because extreme conformations can't hold up to work. There's an issue in Tollers where the dogs are ending up too small with too much bone. Yes they're the smallest retriever, but they have to actually be able to pick up birds!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Bordermom said:


> You also won't find as many working border collies with health clearances. Those breeders will say if the dog can chase sheep and work, it cannot possibly have hip problems or eye problems or anything of the sort (one actually told me doing conformation was a direct cause of HD). Even though their dogs often aren't fed well, are kept on chains in the yard and only worked for 20 minutes or so a day.
> 
> The show ones tend to have all their clearances and the breeders are more concerned with health and finding good homes for their pups (not simply selling them at a sheepdog trial to whoever). Yes, those dogs tend to be barbie collies but the health to me is more important (and the show border collies can and do work sheep).
> 
> ...


Yes it's true about the health clearances. That's primarily a show breeder thing. I would like to see more of it in working dogs.

But the rest? I'm not sure I agree. I don't have all that much experience with bcs other than knowing a few working folk, a few show folk, and attending a sheepdog trial as often as I can but I don't see poorly nourished or built dogs at all. Most working bc people I know also don't chain their dogs. Yes, they may not have the lifestyle of a pampered pet (but a bunch of the weekend warrior types do) but they take good care of their dogs and truly care about them. It's a different way of looking at things and a different philosophy than what I was accustomed to but the end result are the best dogs on sheep.

I watched my first breed, shelties, turn from a useful working breed to an overly fluffy dog with little drive and brain. I wanted another sheltie after Summer but only found out that it's actually easier to find a breeder of papillons working on a total dog than it is a sheltie, which is sad. Conformation, dog sports, and very mild herding just isn't enough to maintain the brain and the sense in these dogs. I won't have another sheltie, they're just not what they should be anymore. Posting pics of modern shelties and shelties 100 years ago you wouldn't even recognize them to be the same breed. I would be devastated if the same happened to border collies. 

Sorry, getting off topic. Edited out my rambling lol!


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Not all stock dog people, but I'd say more than you'd think. I know a few of the breeders here I looked at, had either tiny 4 x 10 foot runs for the dogs or chains and doghouses, puppies born in the barn and so on. Only one (which I went with) had the litter in the kitchen and dogs living in the house or in larger pens for the daytime. I visited several places between looking for a pup and doing clinics in the past, all the same basic setup apart from one trainer and that breeder. 

The dogs usually aren't badly put together other than some nasty bug eyed dogs, some are big, some are smaller, grooming is usually an option, but dogs are well fed anyway.

Lana


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Another one for border collie fans. (This thread is so long it might be a duplicate).
> 
> http://www.crystalledge.com/BreedExtention.htm#4quarters
> 
> SOB


Thanks bunches.

Edit: and thanks for the book link as well.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Xeph said:


> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5285780&id=243628751517 <--Well bred Smooth Collie
> 
> Well bred Rough Collie
> 
> ...


Thank. I just need someone who was more in the know with show stuff.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Well, since the thread has kind of strayed into 'general conformation' discussion, Joanna at Rufflyspeaking has just posted on that very topic today, with some nice pictures illustrating the concept of 'sound structure' here.

I figured some folks here would enjoy reading it.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Pai said:


> Well, since the thread has kind of strayed into 'general conformation' discussion, Joanna at Rufflyspeaking has just posted on that very topic today, with some nice pictures illustrating the concept of 'sound structure' here.
> 
> I figured some folks here would enjoy reading it.


That was a really good read. I don't have a program on the current computer I'm on to draw all those lines, but to me I've always thought Jackson looked really proportionate. Even though he's not 'well bred' (for a Yorkie anyways). I've now had 4 reputable Silky breeders tell me they are nearly 100% sure he's a Silky. He's well built though... he's very muscular and athletic looking. My grandma even made a comment about that this weekend when looking at him standing still.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Pai said:


> Well, since the thread has kind of strayed into 'general conformation' discussion, Joanna at Rufflyspeaking has just posted on that very topic today, with some nice pictures illustrating the concept of 'sound structure' here.
> 
> I figured some folks here would enjoy reading it.


Beautiful dogs to look at here (my two favs).




















. . . . and a great read about sound structure. 

Thanks Pai.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Pai said:


> Well, since the thread has kind of strayed into 'general conformation' discussion, Joanna at Rufflyspeaking has just posted on that very topic today, with some nice pictures illustrating the concept of 'sound structure' here.
> 
> I figured some folks here would enjoy reading it.




its an ok article..it makes a few assertions that i was kind of like..Uhhh?? and really want to quibble with but as a primer on generic structure its decent.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> its an ok article..it makes a few assertions that i was kind of like..Uhhh?? and really want to quibble with but as a primer on generic structure its decent.


I for one would be interested in your quibbles.


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