# Your experiences with conformation and your breed



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I've heard that people have different experiences showing different breeds. Some people may have a breed where there is a lot of stiff competition, whereas others may show in a more easy-going type of atmosphere. For those of you that show in conformation, what is the breed you own, and what has your experience with showing your breed been like?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Well I own weimaraners and bulldogs (and of course a frenchie but she is just a pet). With weimaraners it is quite stiff in competition, there are a lot of pro handlers and long time breeders in this breed, so it is hard to break into it. In fact I had to go to a bulldog person to learn how to show, as no weim person would teach me. I think a lot of them are regretting how they treated me, as they can see I am back with a vengeance so to speak. 

Bulldogs however are very laid back, it is not as cut throat at times, people help each other, and we generally have a very good time at shows. Now not to say there aren't cut throat people in the breed, as there are but it is not as political and stiff as with weimaraners. There are not many pro handlers in bulldogs, mostly breeders, owners handling. On the east coast there is probably only 7 pro handlers in bulldogs, and maybe a few that get the occasional bulldog. 

With weims I am constantly up against a pro handler, but generally I beat them. But I have lost to a worse dog when a pro handler is showing, I just won't bring anything to those judges any more, it is sad that my dog had to lose to a dog that probably shouldn't be showing just because she had a pro handler on her. 

I also show other breeds, I would say springers is pretty competitive I think more competitive then weimaraners are. Engies don't seem to be as competitive at all, but then again I haven't had much competition when showing them. In springers you got all these big name kennels with really nice dogs, so it's lots of competition. 

Don't get me wrong I love showing weimaraners, I actually enjoy the stiff competition, as I know that if I win I have won against some good competition. That is what I am looking forward to for Nationals next week, I want to see good dogs, I want to see BB's, Kira's, and Maxxi's competition. I would love to come away with a purple ribbon, but we will see, purple and white would be just as nice. Blue and white for Kira, or whatever color is for AOM would be perfect. And any ribbon with Maxxi would be just awesome. I am just so excited, I can't wait to leave on Saturday. 

I will also never be like some of the people in weims, as that is just not me, I am always willing to help someone even if they are not in a breed that I have shown. I always willing to learn from other people with other breeds, which is probably why I have a big list of breeds I have shown at least once. (Big to me that is)


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Interesting! I would have made them the other way around, actually.

I've had very little interaction with people showing Tollers, but everyone was really nice to me at Nationals last year. They'd talk to me and let me meet their dogs and seemed really interested in helping me even though I didn't have a dog yet. There's a big push in the breed to keep them a multiuse breed and I think that helps a lot when it comes to conformation. If it's just one piece of the puzzle I think that helps keep it in perspective.

I want to share one of my favorite things I heard at Nationals. Obedience, Rally, and Agility were held on Friday, Conformation was on Saturday. Agility was the only event outside on Friday and it was _pouring_. It was actually a little dangerous, but other than a few handlers going down no injuries. Lots of mud though. Many of the dogs, I'd say about a third, were entered in conformation the next day, so people were griping about all the grooming they'd half to do that night. Someone said "I think we should all just agree these are working dogs, and exhibit them naturally."


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

I didn't show my last dog, but back in the day I spectated a lot of shows and followed my dog's own breed pretty close. I got to know a bit of the drama. There was a point where a breeder was being personally attacked by other breeders because of the way they were grooming their dogs. Samoyeds are not supposed to be clipped except for tidying up the feet (otherwise they get Dr. Seuss feet), and this preson was supposedly "sculpting" their dogs' coats all over with clippers to make them look softer, rounder, and "perfect". Drama ensued, I even found a website personally attacking this person. I thought it was an immature and sad way to deal with something like that. In general I don't think handlers of Samoyeds lean one way or the other in terms of attitude. There are some really friendly nice people and some who are really elitist.

I don't know how it really is with breeds like papillons and corgis, but those are some other breed groups I watched a lot and the competitors always seemed like old friends. They would talk all friendly and help each other.

No matter when or where I watch a show, I always feel that the more popular breeds are more cutthroat. When I watch breeds like the GSD, poodle, and doberman the people handling seem so hardcore, and the there's so many other dogs they have to go against. I overheard a conversation between two sibe handlers about how another person's dog "looked like $#@!".  The more people there are, the more of a chance there's going to be some bad apple attitudes.

I've seen bad attitudes in pretty much any breed group... I have no doubt competetiveness and attitudes differ regionally as well. Note that competetiveness =\= bad attitudes.



RaeganW said:


> Someone said "I think we should all just agree these are working dogs, and exhibit them naturally."


Bahahaha!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> When I watch breeds like the GSD, poodle, and doberman the people handling seem so hardcore


They are.

My breed (GSDs) is extremely hard to get into, and it is actually "run" (in the lines I participate most in) by a certain faction of people in one part of the country. There are certain kennels you will CONSTANTLY see dominating shows, and it's not always because they have the best dog (that is not to say they never do).

People are cliquey, and are unwilling to let others in unless they've "paid their dues" (which is a bunch of a$$ kissing). The status quo MUST be followed, or "You don't want to learn! You're a know it all!" Change comes extremely slowly, when it comes at all.

I love my breed more than the majority of people in it.

That said, where I am NOW (in terms of geographical location) is MUCH more welcoming than where I was. People are happy to see me, they say hi, they keep me up on where majors are being built, and I am frequently complimented on my handling skills. If I cannot enter my dog in a show, they are not upset about it, they just say they'll see me at the next show.

The biggest issue in my breed of choice is ethics (IMO). Hands down. People dyeing dogs, breeding dogs that are unsound (in temperament, structure, or both), hiding health problems (there are a few studs that produced quite prolifically...and then died of mysterious causes, which were never divulged to the fancy), and overall not breeding judiciously.

And this is across ALL lines, NOT just American, NOT just European, NOT just working, and NOT just show.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

We used well known professional toy breed handlers, so I'm not sure how much I count. I find overall pap people are pretty friendly and our handlers were really helpful and nice with tips. There's some cutthroats and snobby people out there but not too bad. I always found people that were nice and wanting to talk and be helpful. Around here though all the specials are top 10 papillons handled by very famous handlers so it is very very rare to see a class dog get put up or an owner handler at the higher levels. (And most the dogs are imports). We have a larger ring than most breeds usually, though not as big as the GSDs or the goldens. 

Overall though, I prefer sports, though they get cutthroat too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> though not as big as the GSDs or the goldens.


GSD numbers do not even compare to Golden numbers. GSD numbers are pathetically low.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Thanks to all that have shared your experiences. It's really interesting to me! So far basically the trend I see is the more popular the breed, the more intense the competition tends to be. Breeds with fewer dogs tend to be more relaxed about showing? Or does it really just vary from breed to breed? 

I've wanted to get into showing in conformation basically all of my life, lol. I don't know if I will show my next dog, but it is something I'm interested in. I am fairly certain, though, that my next dog will be a Shetland Sheepdog. Does anybody maybe have any experience showing Shelties? Though, of course, any experience you have showing whatever breed you have is welcome.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Nargle said:


> Thanks to all that have shared your experiences. It's really interesting to me! So far basically the trend I see is the more popular the breed, the more intense the competition tends to be. Breeds with fewer dogs tend to be more relaxed about showing? Or does it really just vary from breed to breed?
> 
> I've wanted to get into showing in conformation basically all of my life, lol. I don't know if I will show my next dog, but it is something I'm interested in. I am fairly certain, though, that my next dog will be a Shetland Sheepdog. Does anybody maybe have any experience showing Shelties? Though, of course, any experience you have showing whatever breed you have is welcome.


Well considering there is usually more bulldogs at a show then weims, depending on the show site (MD there is generally more weims then bulldogs, VA is the opposite). Bulldogs are just less competitive. I could go up to almost anyone in the bulldog ring and ask if they can help me show a dog, and 9 times out of 10 someone will, there are some bulldoggers I wouldn't trust to show my dogs but that is beside the point. In weims it would be more like 4 out of 10 or so, plus there are much more weim people that I would not trust to take in my dogs. It is a shame, they need to be more helpful. Not to say some aren't as a lot are but it is not the same with bulldogs, it's really hard to explain. 

I don't know much about the sheltie ring, I don't usually see many in my area. I think competitiveness is geographic, it depends on where you are. In my area, there are a lot of big name kennels in weims, not so much with bulldogs. The big name kennels in bulldogs are out west, there are a few around here, one had the number 1 non-sporting dog a few years ago. But they are in NC, there are a couple up north, but I wouldn't call any in VA big name kennels, most of the VA breeders have less years than me and I am not a big name kennel.



Xeph said:


> GSD numbers do not even compare to Golden numbers. GSD numbers are pathetically low.


Golden numbers at certain shows are pathetic as well, in WV there was only 15 entered on the largest day with 8 of those absent. But in general yeah golden numbers is ridiculous, I wish weims would get those numbers some times. Even our regional specialty (Timonium) wasn't 5 points, when it has been in the past. 

Dobermans is another that gets outrageous numbers, and Labs of course.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Does anybody maybe have any experience showing Shelties?


I do. I helped a couple people show theirs, and realized I wouldn't want to own a Sheltie. It's just too much grooming (and much of it that I don't agree with) for shows. You have to chalk, and hairspray, and trim, and backbrush, and and and and and. Don't forget about having to tip the ears! If a dog's ruff falls down, many of them act like its the end of the world. It's ridiculous.

The breed itself is quite enjoyable, but the competition can be quite stiff, even when there aren't a ton of dogs entered in a show.

People here know that I am generally not a fan of gun dogs, but i LOVE the English Cocker. I have a very good friend that I showed Engies for, and I would take one from her, or another of her friends ANY day. The people are friendly, they help when you ask, they are encouraging, and they are, much like their breed, very merry ^_^

The hardest part about grooming for me is shaving the face and ears. I can learn to scissor better with little trouble, but I have a hard time with the pattern in the face, and not making them look heavily clipped.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Never showed AKC and only showed once in Breed in an SV rated show (New England Regional show) under a German Judge who gave my Puppy a 1st place win (VP-1). 

I knew almost no one there and it was interesting and fun. Interestingly my puppy beat the puppy sired by that show's Seiger so that was a little victory. 

Not sure I will do it again. I have looked at it some more and at AKC and we will see where it all ends up. Questa is just under a year old and I won't do hips until next year (probably in July) and then we will see what is what. I am not looking at setting the world on fire with her and I don't really care to (in the breed ring). Have to see where the training and what have you takes me with her... but if I do breed at all it would be under the German System. 

I won't get involved in the cliques. :hail:

Sadly, in AKC I have heard from more than one Champion titler (is that a word?) in a few different breeds (Border Terrier, Min Schnauzer, Std. Schnauzer, GSD, Min Poodle) that as soon as they get the Ch on their dog they are GONE (due to the clique stuff).


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I do. I helped a couple people show theirs, and realized I wouldn't want to own a Sheltie. It's just too much grooming (and much of it that I don't agree with) for shows. You have to chalk, and hairspray, and trim, and backbrush, and and and and and. Don't forget about having to tip the ears! If a dog's ruff falls down, many of them act like its the end of the world. It's ridiculous.
> 
> The breed itself is quite enjoyable, but the competition can be quite stiff, even when there aren't a ton of dogs entered in a show.
> 
> ...


I actually don't mind grooming, unless I have to do some stylish haircut (I sometimes wish Basil wasn't so easy to groom! I had great fun grooming my boyfriend's sister's Aussie, though) but so there's really unethical grooming practices going on in the shows? Also, may I ask, did you find that it was easy to find someone in Shelties to mentor you, or was it more like Chaos described Weim people?

FWIW I want my next dog to be a Sheltie because I really like their personality and I think I would enjoy having one as a companion, showing would just be a bonus. 

BTW, I've heard that the UKC is easier to get into for beginners. Is it possible to show in both UKC and AKC with a single dog? For instance if I just wanted to start in the UKC and then when I get more serious into showing finish in the AKC?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Nargle said:


> BTW, I've heard that the UKC is easier to get into for beginners. Is it possible to show in both UKC and AKC with a single dog? For instance if I just wanted to start in the UKC and then when I get more serious into showing finish in the AKC?


Yes. Some dogs are registered with both, but UKC recognizes AKC registration. So if the dog is registered with the AKC but not the UKC, you can send in papers and get full UKC registration for the dog. I don't believe AKC recognizes UKC registration though.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Showing Tibetan Mastiffs in Canada is a little rough, first of all other competitors look at you like you are hauling a mixed breed in the ring as if you have a solid black (Like Karma) they think its a Newfie mix and the black and tans many people think are Newf rottie looking.
I am yet to run into another person showing TM's in the circut I am doing ( small northern one to get practice more or less) but going up against the working group is insane. I was in the ring recently with 5 professional handlers and one long time breeder/owner/handler, so being a Newbie to the show world is not easy but to me it is all for fun.

Now showing a TM is more of a challenge than anything. They dont like the ring and are not a showy breed. Even some of the biggest names in the US will comment about certain dogs in their programs that they prefer to show since you do not have to coerce them into it. Most of the breed could care less and they show it in the ring.
In our standard it clearly states that "In the ring he may exhibit reserve or lack of enthusiasm, but any sign of shyness is unacceptable and must be severely faulted as inappropriate for a guardian breed. Conversely, given its aloof nature, judges should also beware of putting a premium on showiness."
So its with in standard for them to be like this. Its just hard when you're up against a group like the working group, Rotties, Dobies, Boxers, Sibes ect that are all quite showy


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Also, may I ask, did you find that it was easy to find someone in Shelties to mentor you, or was it more like Chaos described Weim people?


I never asked to be mentored. I started in Collies, and was taught how to chalk, scissor, and tape ears by the Collie people I was working with. You do the same things to a Sheltie that you do to a Collie. I can't really comment on the ease of getting people to mentor me in those breeds because I wasn't "into" them like I am GSDs.

I'd say that Collie people are more open than Sheltie people, however, both breeds have their people that nobody wants to deal with.



> so there's really unethical grooming practices going on in the shows?


Of course. But people turn a blind eye to it. There's all sorts of unethical stuff that goes on, and nobody says anything. I try to if I see something, but that doesn't mean something gets done about it.

You're not supposed to enhance your dog with colors or dyes, but unless it comes off on the judge's hands, nothing can be done. They sell these grooming aids right at the show. Scars obtained by working are supposed to be acceptable (depending on the breed), but a dog without a scar is more likely to place than a dog with one. That's the nature of dog shows.

They do have their great points, and I greatly enjoy exhibiting, but I can't pretend that unsavory things don't happen at shows.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Nargle..... Research breeders, hook up with a decent one. Convey your sincere interest in breaking into conformation, buy a decent dog and go out and give it 100 percent......

If you try and learn you will do fine... Yes, you might get outhandled at times, and you might lose because of politics at times. But in the end you will win plenty. 

Remember..... You walk into a ring, when you walk out you received one judges opinion......If that judge did not like your dog, the next one might. Ignore comments from people about this and that. (your dog is too big, your dog ears are too big..... A LOT of folks play mind games. ) So ignore them. There are dirty handler tricks too... I am not talking about coloring or grooming. I am talking about in the ring tricks to mess with you and your dog. When you get closer, I would be more than happy to go over them. For every handler trick there is a counter.......


BTW..... I don't have shelties, will never have a sheltie, etc..... But..... at least in the places I have been, the Sheltie people are a great bunch..... We do at least one combined herding trial with the sheltie club here..... Great bunch of folks to work with. They are typically nicer to their fellow competitors than the other breeds at the the trial. 

I don't show against them in conformation except in group.... But they sure seem a lot nicer to each other than the BC or some of the ACD people......

Remember this.... you get out there and start winning. Some folks are going to talk crap.... People are nicer to you when you lose..... Don't sweat it.....


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## nasr91 (Apr 25, 2011)

Hi All,
Newbie here  I am coming over from the horse forums and strongly considering showing dogs so this is a very interesting thread! I really want to show Setters.namely Engish or Gordon. How is that breed for a newbie to get into?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Remember this.... you get out there and start winning. Some folks are going to talk crap.... People are nicer to you when you lose..... Don't sweat it.....


I fear that is true in many situations in life. At the horse shows years ago I had a good friend (at least that is what I thought) as soon as I started winning week after week, our friendship got rocky. There was a whole lot of back stabbing going on. I agree with JohnnyBandit. Don't sweat it. If those are your "friends" you can do without them and if they are just people you don't know, who cares what they say?

I personally find it sad that people have to be so ugly to each other. I guess it is hard to wear a loser hat and be happy for a winner but behaving that way just proves a person deserves the loser hat. IMO

What is the saying? Mediocrity always attacks excellence?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I highly recommend taking conformation handling classes. Not only does the instructor help you with your own technique, but you get to watch him or her critique everyone else, and it really helps you recognize mistakes and see how things should be done. It also allows your pup to get used to being around other dogs in the ring and learn to ignore them and focus on you. The instructor will probably get various class members to play judge at certain points, too, so your dog gets experience with multiple people going over it. 

Plus, classes are great for making contacts. I went to a class today and there were at least 15 handlers there with their dogs, and after class a bunch of us hung around and chatted for a while. I've met a ton of people through classes and shows and been invited to some cool things and I'm not even actively handling yet. A lot of the people at classes are actually experienced handlers who are bringing their younger dogs just to get them used to the ring, so they can be good acquaintances to have. A handler doesn't have to handle the same breed as you to be a big help with your technique, and I find people are actually a lot friendlier if you aren't in direct competition.

(We also evaluated a litter of German pinschers today, which was very interesting -- their breeder went over a male GP (the #1 GP in Canada, actually), explaining the standard and how he measured up to it, and then we all got to go over each puppy. If you can find a way to do something like that, it is an awesome tool for learning about structure. You get to compare all the pups to the standard and to each other and really see, for example, what a round eye vs. an oval eye looks like. You get to think like a judge and I'm sure it helps you know what to accentuate when you get your own dog up on the table.)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> BTW..... I don't have shelties, will never have a sheltie, etc..... But..... at least in the places I have been, the Sheltie people are a great bunch..... We do at least one combined herding trial with the sheltie club here..... Great bunch of folks to work with. They are typically nicer to their fellow competitors than the other breeds at the the trial.
> 
> I don't show against them in conformation except in group.... But they sure seem a lot nicer to each other than the BC or some of the ACD people......


Everyone's nicer than the BC people. 

My experience with shelties was pretty limited but I did work with Trey's breeder some. Unfortunately she hit a rough spot in her life and we both moved and I lost contact. Can't find her online either (I found an email and sent her an email but never got a response back).

There is a lot of grooming. Especially compared to papillons. That alone is why I wouldn't ever get into showing the breed. That and there's just SO many more issues in the breed than paps. There are many many breeders in shelties that show but produce shoddy temperaments or don't focus at all on working type ability. Or have a kennel full of neurotic barkers that need to be debarked. The breed itself is great but what's been done to it isn't. I notice a lot more fads in the breed too (especially head type). Don't get me wrong, I adore the breed and will always adore them, I just get the feeling it's not on a great path at the moment.

Trey himself was the epitome of what is wrong with many sheltie lines. Research research research the breed and lines you're looking at. Personally, I would get into shelties via performance sports, not showing. I have found the best sheltie people through agility and have found some really awesome shelties there too. Ones with confidence and drive and energy like the breed SHOULD have. I would go from there and try to find a dog that can do both. There are many breeders that are only showing these days. Not good for a herding breed imo.

That is really the only reason I am considering one again. I was completely put out on the breed because of the extent of temperament disasters I'd come across in them. I NEVER want another Trey, but unfortunately there are probably as many shelties like Trey out there as there are correct shelties. Maybe more.

Not trying to be a downer or anything, just be wary and critical going into it. Are you a member of the sheltie forum?


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Everyone's nicer than the BC people.


I was originally going to post something like that but decided not to. Some of the best and worst people I've met in dog sports were BC people. You get both extremes. Some real crusty elitists and some real down to earth, genuine people.
One of my favorite BC people won the agility national championships a few years ago. I was so happy for her. I was glad that someone so positive was representing the sport (she went on to represent Canada at the worlds).


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Everyone's nicer than the BC people.
> 
> My experience with shelties was pretty limited but I did work with Trey's breeder some. Unfortunately she hit a rough spot in her life and we both moved and I lost contact. Can't find her online either (I found an email and sent her an email but never got a response back).
> 
> ...


You have a very good point and it's definitely something I want to keep in mind. I just don't have a lot of experience with breeders in general, so finding a breeder that produces sound, stable dogs is something I'm a little concerned about. I'm not sure exactly how to research a breeder's lines without physically meeting all of the dogs. 

I do agree that I'd prefer to get a Sheltie from a breeder who does more than just conformation. And I do intend on doing at LEAST Agility with my next dog. But I have always wanted to get into conformation, too, and honestly, conformation is a bit more mysterious than Agility IMO, lol. Which is why I posted a thread about it, to see if I could get a better understanding of what conformation is like on the inside. But I do agree, I do want to find a breeder that's involved in more activities than just showing.

As far as the Sheltie forum, I wasn't aware that there was one, lol! Would you mind PMing me a link?

BTW, I'm just curious, but would you mind elaborating on what fads you've seen in the breed? I have noticed differences in dogs between different lines and different breeders, but I think I'm much too inexperienced to notice any fads so far. I am very curious, though.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Nargle said:


> BTW, I'm just curious, but would you mind elaborating on what fads you've seen in the breed? I have noticed differences in dogs between different lines and different breeders, but I think I'm much too inexperienced to notice any fads so far. I am very curious, though.


One extreme I've seen is the emphasis on coat and more and more and more coat. I was at an agility trial recently (shelties are huge here in agility) and some of the dogs will apparently be showing in conformation at some point...their handlers were talking about how they are trying to grow more coat so they have a chance but honestly the dogs were already poofballs with faces.

Note: I actually really like Shelties (trivia: Kim was found on petfinder with a "Sheltie" breed search), so I'm not trying to knock the breed.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The BC thing was half tongue in cheek, half not. I ahve some really really good friends with BCs but getting into the breed has made me want to scream more often than not. I've run into a lot of the bad ones too and they are very cutthroat.



Nargle said:


> You have a very good point and it's definitely something I want to keep in mind. I just don't have a lot of experience with breeders in general, so finding a breeder that produces sound, stable dogs is something I'm a little concerned about. I'm not sure exactly how to research a breeder's lines without physically meeting all of the dogs.


In shelties, I honestly would not buy a dog from a breeder that I couldn't meet some of their dogs face to face. Ask around, go to performance events, talk to people, etc. 



> As far as the Sheltie forum, I wasn't aware that there was one, lol! Would you mind PMing me a link?


Sure thing!



> BTW, I'm just curious, but would you mind elaborating on what fads you've seen in the breed? I have noticed differences in dogs between different lines and different breeders, but I think I'm much too inexperienced to notice any fads so far. I am very curious, though.


Well the breed itself has changed very drastically since being accepted into the KC. The modern sheltie is really not the same dog as the original working type dog. They look completely different from the spitzy type ancestors. The first 'fad' I suppose was to transform the breed into a tiny show collie type dog. The original breed was lost in favor to the emerging show type (there was much debate back in the day about this too). They actually routinely lied about pedigrees in order to cross show type collies into the sheltie breed. (and there is actually evidence that small spaniels like cavaliers and papillons were thrown in to reduce size) Most the old colors were lost and many new ones (merle) were introduced. The modern sheltie is more of a pet/sports dog than a true working dog anymore. I suppose that's the story of many breeds though. Shelties have followed how many breeds have gotten vastly more and more showy and more and more coat.

The biggest splits now are European versus American type dogs. The Euro dogs have snippier faces. American dogs have a broader head and usually much smaller eyes. It is similar to the split in collies, really. American heads seem to be getting even more and more 'puppyish' so to speak. They are really turning into a 'head' breed. I feel like there is a lot of emphasis on a pretty puppy-like head and extravagant coat and less on work ethic and a stable temperament. There is also getting to be a split (not so much as a BC) between the people breeding all around shelties and focusing a lot on performance and those breeding just for show. Again, most being head and bone and coat. The coats these days are pretty ridiculous. The original shelties had much more functional coats.

Early shelties: http://www.portmazathe.nl/ped/statichtml/earliest.html

This is what I think of when I think of euro style shelties: http://www.showdog.com/Pictures/Dog/Shetland_Sheepdog.jpg
http://www.nyitramenti.hu/Breeding/doitagain-st.jpg

American: http://www.springmist.com/hershey/dillon.jpg 
http://stripduke.web-log.nl/photos/uncategorized/laureate_1.jpg

Not saying anything about preferences. One of those is actually my dog's sire. 

Also a good sheltie resource: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/rom/rom.html
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/SheltieHistory.html


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## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I'd say that Collie people are more open than Sheltie people, however, both breeds have their people that nobody wants to deal with.


I will agree this about Collies. We were very lucky to get in with the nicest people and it has been wonderful. Most of them are so good to my daughter and help her out. Just this past weekend in VA an older man came in with his collie, set up next to us and I had great conversations with him all weekend.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Everybody was pretty nice at weimaraner nationals this year. Got lots of great comments on BB and my handling of her. So that was really cool.


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## Tami (Aug 31, 2006)

Nargle said:


> I actually don't mind grooming, unless I have to do some stylish haircut (I sometimes wish Basil wasn't so easy to groom! I had great fun grooming my boyfriend's sister's Aussie, though) but so there's really unethical grooming practices going on in the shows? Also, may I ask, did you find that it was easy to find someone in Shelties to mentor you, or was it more like Chaos described Weim people?
> 
> FWIW I want my next dog to be a Sheltie because I really like their personality and I think I would enjoy having one as a companion, showing would just be a bonus.
> 
> BTW, I've heard that the UKC is easier to get into for beginners. Is it possible to show in both UKC and AKC with a single dog? For instance if I just wanted to start in the UKC and then when I get more serious into showing finish in the AKC?


I have 2 shelties and found people, for the most part, to be very friendly and welcoming. In the beginning there were some people I thought were rude/standoff'ish (just not helping people/going back in on dogs) but I realized they were judges and actually couldn't help like other people did. As far as grooming I actually like it and think it's kind of fun  I'm still working on the trimming but I can do everything else.

I've had pet shelties growing up but these are my first showdogs. I bought the first one in 2008 and the 2nd in mid 2010. Both of my boys are finished and we're just working on my puppies GCH. I recently registered them both with UKC and will show that as well. As long as the dog is AKC registered they can be registered w/UKC but it doesn't go the other way  We are actually showing both this weekend. We have AKC in the morning and then UKC a few miles away afterward. Then we'll return to the AKC show for Jrs and groups hahaha 

This will be my first UKC show and I've heard they are totally kickback compared to AKC. Supposed to be really friendly/family oriented so we will see. The classes are a bit different but the major difference is grooming. In UKC you can't do nearly as much as you can't chalk/hairspray, etc. If they find anything in the coat you will be excused from the class. Some judges also don't let you use any bait and there is no professional handlers (unless they own/co-own the dog).

Tami


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Trying to show a cocker here was a nightmare. Everyone was a long time pro, or an breeder/owner-handler with 20+ years experience. I was insulted by multiple people, talked down to and told my puppy was so ugly my breeder should be ashamed. I finally got an old timer to help me a little to try to improve my grooming who told me they were jealous I hadn't bought from one of them.. but in the long run I couldn't handle the never ending nasty. I'd tried to get a dog from Ontario before I went to the states. Breeders wouldn't talk to me. I was ganged up on at fun matches as well as CKC shows. It's no wonder confo numbers seem to be dropping rather than increasing. If you treat the newbs like dirt.. Also found out a bunch of people were showing mismarks.. Clairol was a great solution and while excessive coat shouldn't be a selling point, it was.

I gave up. I do only sports now.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Clairol was a great solution


It's not restricted just to Cockers.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Oh totally Xeph.. Just these cocker people were being awfully loud and proud about it. Often you hear skeazy things happen.. but to have breeders and owners openly admitting to it. Yick.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

MafiaPrincess said:


> Clairol was a great solution


That's just not cool. When winning becomes more important than anything else...

I often think how I will handle it when I start showing. I'd like to think the insults would just drive me harder to beat them, especially if they're cheating... What poor sportsmanship.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Indigo said:


> That's just not cool. When winning becomes more important than anything else...
> 
> I often think how I will handle it when I start showing. I'd like to think the insults would just drive me harder to beat them, especially if they're cheating... What poor sportsmanship.


That is what fuels me. I really hate poor sportsmen, so the feeling I get when I beat them is just awesome.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I really hate poor sportsmen


Very much agreed. I've been lucky that I have been so well received where I am right now. It is not the same where I came from.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Very much agreed. I've been lucky that I have been so well received where I am right now. It is not the same where I came from.


Yeah people around here are pretty cool, not everybody obviously but many are. I have met great friends while showing. I can't wait for the Bel Alton, MD shows so I can see people I have not seen in a while.


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