# Defiance!



## SophieOwner (Sep 20, 2008)

I adopted a dog from a shelter. She's a 4yo Jack Russel mix and I've had her for a month and a half. 

She's developed a HUGELY defiant streak. I wanted to curb the tugging on her lead when walking (a regular harness wasn't working great anymore) and got the Haltee. This has been bucked and tossed as if it is a supreme torture divise.

I progressed to a shock collar and she will CRY and yip bloody murder before even taking notice of me.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Discontinue the shock collar NOW! That isn't going to help you AT ALL.

It has taken me 4 month to get my dog not to pull and to walk next to me while on a walk. It's been only in the last 2 weeks that he's gotten the walking at the side down.

http://www.petvideo.com/play.cgi?showId=41913 Is a good video it watch. You don't need a special leash or collar to stop a dog from pulling, just a lot of time. I did get a pinch collar for my dog to help me with training to not pull. They do make them small enough for a JRT. It takes a while more time with terriers just because of their "special" attitudes.

Please do not use that shock collar again unless you have a trainer show you how too. It can do a LOT more damage then help if you are using it incorrectly and it seems you are.

If you still can't get the walking down, contact a local dpg trainer for help. On avg its $65 for an hour but in that hour they will show you what you are doing wron gand how to correct it.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Okay well first, this is not defiance. Having worked for two years with shelter dogs now, I've met a fair many that simply are not used to everyday things. They don't know how to walk on a leash, what a halti is (though this is the same for a lot of dogs - it's a different fit that many animals are not used to), etc. 

Secondly, shock collars DO hurt. Some dogs pay them no mind, some do. You have a little girl who may be rather sensitive. Be sure that you have it on the right setting and that you are using it correctly. 

Though admittedly, I would never suggest a shock for a problem like pulling. These are things that need to be fixed with TRAINING. Have you thought about getting into a starter obedience class? They will help you teach your dog common commands such as heel in a much more positive manner. 

This is about your dog not understanding what YOU want, not defiance. Animals just don't work that way


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## SophieOwner (Sep 20, 2008)

Sorry for the misunderstanding the shock collar is not for tugging...its becuase she's running away even though she's been well excercized. And by well-excercized I mean wrestling with another dog all day AND a decent walk. The running is an act of defiance...she just dosn't want to listen.

She came from a shelter, but before that she had a family. They got rid of her becuase their 2 year old was letting her out and she was more than happy to take advantage of that.

She knows come, sit, beg, high-five, down, up, stop, lay-down, paw and a couple more. 90% of the time she will listen to these commands. Sometimes she just dosn't want to, and I have found no reason for it...hunger, tiredness, bordem, etc, none seem to motivate her bad behaviors.

Her tugging is also part of her defiance and "showing off". When I walk her by myself there is not a distraction in the world that causes her to be so defiant as to tug to hurt my hands. However, when walking with my neighbor she will put up all sorts of bad behavior. Its odd, becuase when she's over my neighbor's and I'm not there she is also very well behaved (according to my neighbor).


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

You are really misunderstanding dog behavior. Buy running away do you mean she actually leaves the house and runs away? This is not defiance...it has nothing to do with not wanting to listening to you. Dogs are roaming animals, some breeds more then others. If she is leaving the yard it's likely something caught her attention, distracted her, etc. 

If you are talking more in the sense that she is walking away from you when you give a command, that is a simple lack of training. I know you say she is well trained - but she ISN'T if she continuously ignores your commands. 

Also, dogs do not show off in the sense that the go "Hey another dog, look how I misbehave!" you are applying human thoughts and emotions to your dog. She may pull with other animals around because they excite her. 

Honestly...dogs simply do not do these things. They don't sit there thinking up ways to go against what we want. It's not that complicated for them...they simply act.


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## SophieOwner (Sep 20, 2008)

When she runs its not to or at anything. She will look at me, look the other way, take off about 100 feet look at me, wait for me to catch up (or not), and take off again. Again, its not as if she never sees outside, she's outside ALL day. And she is very comfort-orented and likes to sleep inside (infact she'll ONLY sleep inside). Once caught she comes inside without an issue, usually she's happy to come in and stretch on her pillow and fall asleep.

She dosn't continously ignore my commands, thats what's frustrating as I said before she's well behaved most of the time. However, she seems to randomly mis-behave, especally when there are other humans (even humans she's familiar with) around. She's GREAT with other animals and dosn't tug or misbehave at all....unless another adult is around.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

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SophieOwner said:



When she runs its not to or at anything. She will look at me, look the other way, take off about 100 feet look at me, wait for me to catch up (or not), and take off again. Again, its not as if she never sees outside, she's outside ALL day. And she is very comfort-orented and likes to sleep inside (infact she'll ONLY sleep inside). Once caught she comes inside without an issue, usually she's happy to come in and stretch on her pillow and fall asleep

Click to expand...

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SophieOwner said:


> .
> 
> She dosn't continously ignore my commands, thats what's frustrating as I said before she's well behaved most of the time. However, she seems to randomly mis-behave, especally when there are other humans (even humans she's familiar with) around. She's GREAT with other animals and dosn't tug or misbehave at all....unless another adult is around.


I see that as play.....dogs like to play chase..


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

PLEASE put the shock collar aside. Buy your dog a regular buckle collar, put tags on it and get her microchipped if you've not done that already. Now if she runs away at least she has a chance of getting back to you. Your next purchases should be lots of delicious training treats (think: hot dogs, ham, Natural Balance rolls, Zuke's Small Bites, Buddy Biscuits!), a clicker and a light long line. No more just letting her out to get away from you. ALWAYS keep her on the line if you're going out. Inside you should start working on name recognition, coming when called and focus. Work in a quiet area when she's hungry, saying her name once and giving her a treat immediately and then as she gets it work on increasing the distance she comes to you from. Don't repeat yourself. If she doesn't come on the first call, simply go to her, cheerily reorient her with you and back away so she follows you a step or two, then immediately give her a treat. Once she's reliably coming to you inside with some distractions, you can start working with her outside in a quiet area. If she really enjoys tugging, you can also use tug as a rewarding release. You can incorporate the clicker after charging it (go to http://www.clickertraining.com for more info.) to clearly mark exactly what behaviors you're reinforcing, which is likely to speed things up. For getting your dog to focus on you, I recommend Leslie Devitt's "Control Unleashed." You'll be AMAZED at what your little terrier will do for you and it won't take one shock or collar pop to do it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

You do realize this is a 1.5 month old puppy. No it's a 4 yr old dog. No it's a 1.5 month old puppy. This is what you must treat it as, because it's brand new in your home and family. There are some breaks when getting an older dog because sometimes the housebreaking is done and they know some stuff but they have no reason to be loyal to new family etc. 90% of the time it responds to commands and then it stops. I think you need one of the new Robo-Dogs They should give you 100% obedience etc. It sometimes takes anywhere from 3 mths to 18 mths for dogs to bond. Just imagine if somebody grabbed you picked you up and set you down in Germany where you did not know anybody and did not speak the language. You are smarter than the dog so hopefully you would fare better than the dog does. Good luck


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

wvasko said:


> You do realize this is a 1.5 month old puppy. No it's a 4 yr old dog. No it's a 1.5 month old puppy. This is what you must treat it as, because it's brand new in your home and family. There are some breaks when getting an older dog because sometimes the housebreaking is done and they know some stuff but they have no reason to be loyal to new family etc. 90% of the time it responds to commands and then it stops. I think you need one of the new Robo-Dogs They should give you 100% obedience etc. It sometimes takes anywhere from 3 mths to 18 mths for dogs to bond. Just imagine if somebody grabbed you picked you up and set you down in Germany where you did not know anybody and did not speak the language. You are smarter than the dog so hopefully you would fare better than the dog does. Good luck


I would take a puppy fresh from it's mother over a shelter dog for training purposes any day. Puppies are generally MUCH easier to mold in my experience. They haven't had any time to solidify bad habits, where shelter dogs have had a lifetime.

That being said, I work with a norwegian elkhound - an incredibly stubborn breed... Quite possibly one of the MOST stubborn ones out there. Doing everything perfectly from day one, it took me from the time he was 2 months until he was 9 months to get him to walk at a heel. Giving up and going to a halti and a shock collar in a month and a half is completely unneeded. You just need to have patience, and trust that things WILL get better with work.


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## klip (Jul 22, 2008)

Just wanted to share this quickly - its very normal for a dog to behave differently when its with you, and when someone else is around.

All the dogs I've had, I would train not to pull. They would be fine when walking alone with me, but when my husband or another dog is there - they would pull. I'm not sure of the reason but I think its something to do with the fact that dogs are very bad at generalising. That means - they will learn something in one situation, (like for example to obey the command "sit" when inside a house) but if you change something about the situation (take the dog outside) you sometimes have to start training again from scratch.

Its very important to avoid using words such as "defiant" "sneaky" "guilty" "spiteful" and so on when working with a dog. Its not really important whether these can be applied to a dog. What is more important is - it creates a negative emotionally charged atmosphere in which the training is more likely to fail.

I know from my own experience that when I start feeling angry at my dog its often because I myself have failed to train properly, and my anger is just a way of attempting to pass the fault over to my dog. "Its not my fault the dog is stupid/stubborn/defiant/sneaky." So I dont need to re-evaluate my training methods, and then I am sure to fail because 90% of the time its my approach that needed to change.

When I feel like that , I know its time to calm down, take a step back and look at the situation calmly. What does the situation look like from the dog's point of view? Is she only playing? Is she scared? What do your actions seem like to her?

It can only help your training.


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