# Gun Breaking a dog



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

How does one go about training a dog to tolerate gunfire? (either in hunting of protection/police work).

Thanks.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

The breeder from whom I may be getting my next pup often has dogs that are trained for retrieving game and who need to be conditioned to gunfire.

She recommends what is essentially basic desensitization. Start as young as possible (well before hearing develops may have limited helpfulness but you know what I mean), and with gun fire sounds in the distance or very quiet (if you are playing sounds on a stereo or something) while doing something the dog enjoys, like eating dinner. Slowly decrease the distance/increase the volume until the dog is tolerating the sound of gunfire next to him.

I accidentally did this with Kim and Webster...the dog park we went to for a while was near a gun range, so from time to time as the dogs were playing people would be shooting nearby. How loud it was depended on the number of people shooting and the direction of the breeze.

As a result my otherwise pretty sound-sensitive dog doesn't even flinch when fireworks go off on the 4th of July.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

How would you all do it if the dog were older (full grown over 1 year old)?

I am pretty sure I know how I would do this, but I am tossing this out there to see what the various answers are.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> How would you all do it if the dog were older (full grown over 1 year old)?
> 
> I am pretty sure I know how I would do this, but I am tossing this out there to see what the various answers are.


Well I'd do it the same way lol. Just tends to be easier if you start young. 

The mechanics are the same no matter what you are desensitizing for...the variables tend to be based on your options. Do you have gun ranges around you? Do you know people who go hunting or target practicing outdoors? Will those people help you?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

No personal experience but my hunting friends tell me they start with distance gun work usually during feeding time. Another tool they use is to make a toy/dummy out of the birds they will be hunting...ie; pheasant feathers/field dummy. They often leave it their crate/sleeping area.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

There have been many pups ruined by the shoot cap-pistol while pup is eating routine. Many dogs ruined by the hunt/gun club fiascos. Take pup to gun club and stand there while shotguns go off in the distance (usually not that far) Some pups and dog survive these programs but I think you could take those dogs to an artillery range and they would be fine.

I always used a 2 prong attack, never fired a gun over a bird dog unless it was chasing a flushed bird strongly after a flush. “enjoying the work” I started with a 22 blank starter’s pistol at long distances and never fired more than once per session. With protection dogs a shot was never fired until dog was biting and “enjoying the work” The 1st shot is at a longer distance. The distance and caliber of gun is changed when the dog tells me to. Done properly the dogs never even hear the shots. I am not saying other methods do not work, these are the methods I used.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I have desenitized Allie to loud noises a bit by using a recording (well the computer) with the sound very low while I feed her dinner. Over the course of months I very slowly raised the volume. She can now tolerate thunder, fireworks, gun fire. She still gets nervous but doesn't completely freak out like she used to.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I figured that distance and caliber were the keys, with them being changed as the dog indicated and not doing both at the same time.

I really LOVE that WVasko adds a very very VERY key element of DRIVE. With the dog in high drive, having a great time doing what they love doing, adding the noise would be secondary. Again, adding lower and working to higher noise as the dog indicates.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> I really LOVE that WVasko adds a very very VERY key element of DRIVE. With the dog in high drive, having a great time doing what they love doing, adding the noise would be secondary. Again, adding lower and working to higher noise as the dog indicates.


Associate a potential negative with something the dog already loves and, they not only don't fear it, they learn to love the gun as much as the bird or the sleeve.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Associate a potential negative with something the dog already loves and, they not only don't fear it, they learn to love the gun as much as the bird or the sleeve.


You need to know the dog and have a drivey dog fully accessing those drives to pull it off though...done improperly the method of introduction described could well associate the thing the dog loves with a strong negative and scare the heck out of the dog, creating a setback in something he used to enjoy on top of turning the potential negative to a "real" negative.

Granted any method done improperly could have negative side effects...some are just more difficult to mess up than others, with varying levels of disastrous side effects.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Shaina said:


> ...some are just more difficult to mess up than others....


Breeding is as important as anything you'll do to train the dog. I want to start out with a naturally bold pup who's got drive squirtin' out of his pores. Get one of those, and the rest of the process is quite straightforward.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Shaina said:


> You need to know the dog and have a drivey dog fully accessing those drives to pull it off though...done improperly the method of introduction described could well associate the thing the dog loves with a strong negative and scare the heck out of the dog, creating a setback in something he used to enjoy on top of turning the potential negative to a "real" negative.
> 
> Granted any method done improperly could have negative side effects...some are just more difficult to mess up than others, with varying levels of disastrous side effects.


I agree dogs can be ruined by anything in this world(birds farting in Ohio might ruin a dog or 2) I was answering elana's reply who I believe can rub her belly and spit at the same time. I would trust elana's reading of her dog than some macho hunter or possible gun nut who might have had one or 5 dogs and got lucky with all of them. Of which as a very young man I resembled both gun nut and hunter so I know what it means and some of the bad advice that can follow.

In my reply I mentioned that the dog will tell me when to move further into the gun work. I believe elana and her dog Atka read each other well(I could be mistaken, but I doubt it) 

Let's talk about the desensitizing with stereo etc noises which I have seen a number of time on forum. Yes with some dogs this may be the answer. Our house dog in the last 2 years has developed a thunder lightning problem. This is the same dog that can lay stretched out asleep with her head next to the Yamaha sub-woofer while a combo of Tornado and world war 2 artillery barrage is going on and I have the system blaring. This dog immediately will react to a lightning strike 10 miles away. Not all dogs can be cured of stuff with the same programs.

My opinion with guns is that prevention is much better than trying a cure. Let's look at it this way with the cap pistol routine while your pup is eating. I'm sure that if your pup was eating and you fired the cap from 3 rooms away the pup would be fine, but then you have the owner who thinks well I really want to make sure of my pup so I will fire pistol right over pups head instead of once 5 times. Whoopee I am now the owner of a useless pup, let's go get another one.
The 1st shot the pup just flinches a tad and keeps eating by the 5th shot the pup is running out of room heading for the space under the bed. I watched a dog at a trap/skeet club that was tied to a bumper that was fine for the 1st 5 or 6 shotgun blasts and by the 10th he was under the car and had to be dragged out. The owner was one of the owners who listened to his friends on how to get his dog ready for hunting. I was a young hunter and not a dog trainer at that time and I thought the concept was kinda stupid but the owner and his friends were know it alls. Oh yes that particular pup was put down and those were the old school days.
He was put down with a bullet.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Here is what prompted this question.

On Monday I went to the local Memorial Day parade. When I go, I photograph everything and try to get CD's and/or DVD's to those who organized the parade for their organizations use, and to copy and give to anyone. No strings, No $$, no copyrights. I never fought in a war, but a lot of those folks did (like my Dad). It is the least I can do. 

This year I brought Atka with me. She has reached a point in her training where I can put her in a down/stay and she will stay there while people mill around and I am working 20 feet away in her sight. This is the sort of off leash work I aspire to when I train a dog. 

She was excellant. She stayed, people all around, some petting her. She did not get up and she had her water there (in fact, she stays laying down and drinks LOL). 

After the Parade we have to follow the end and get past them to the Memorial site for the Services. This year was special as the memorial was dedicated to a recently deceased vet who had given to other vets for years. In addition, our State Senator had dedicated a flag that had flown over the Capitol (Washington) to be flown at the Memorial. 

Atka came with me and I was shooting. It was hot and there were a lot of people pressing around us. She was hot, but very good and laid down and waited nicely while I shot. She did a little stress whining but she will do that when I am just standing around. She may have been stressed from the heat (she was laying in my shade and had cold water in front of her), or from all the people or was simply wanting to get moving. I asked her to stop ('quiet') and she did. 

All was well until the gun salute... I knew it was coming so picked up her leash (I actually had forgotten about taht part of the service). She was startled. They shot 3 times. If they had shot once, I think it would have been OK but by shot #3 she was in shut down mode.. would not take food rewards.. was not whining or trying to run away but obviously upset and disconnected. 

I finished the photography (the ceremony had the closing prayer) and left... took her to the stream and let her go in and lay down in the cold water etc. I then took her straight home. She is fine today and was fine later on (tho tired). 

This dog has suddenly come miles ahead in her training. She is doing what I expect a dog to do on and off leash. She is good in crowds and good with people (tho we are going to give her a few days off from crowds). She is not a fearful dog and has a wonderful sense of fun (last dog was excellant but she was much more serious). She loves to work and go places and she LOVES vanilla ice cream cones. 

Since her reaction to the shooting was dramatic (for her) I am thinking the thing to do is get her used to gun fire, sudden loud noises etc. as something to pay attention to, but not anything to fear. 

FWIW, when this dog spooked at the gun fire yesterday, she got up and wanted to leave, but she looked at me and did that GSD thing of _asking permission._. I had the leash in hand, but I firmly believe she would have stayed with me if I had NOT had the leash. I gave her all the body language of "its OK" along with stroking her and speaking softly to her in an upbeat tone.

This dog is as good a dog as anyone could ask for and I want to keep it that way.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I figured that distance and caliber were the keys, with them being changed as the dog indicated and not doing both at the same time.
> 
> I really LOVE that WVasko adds a very very VERY key element of DRIVE. With the dog in high drive, having a great time doing what they love doing, adding the noise would be secondary. Again, adding lower and working to higher noise as the dog indicates.


My dog had a very high drive to fetch, I built that up before she ever heard a gun. I also already had her trained to respond to point in a direction to run out, to look back at a whistle, and to take hand signals for which way to go look. Starting small, in the yard and building up after a year or so to have her blindfolded, or around a corner in a stay and throw an object out in a field somewhere (or hit a tennis ball very far with a bat). Then send her out to find and retrieve.

That way I could later direct her to a bird she didn't see fall, and to have friends mark mentally where birds fell they could not find so I could send her in to the brush to find them later.

I associated the gun sound with something to fetch much later on, it was the last part. She learned very quickly when I fired one it meant there was something to go retrieve and perked her drive right up. It became a signal to turn on the drive.

I don't know if that was the best way, I didn't really plan to train her that way, in that order, it just worked out that way. I had never done anything of the sort before.

Unfortunately she was almost ruined of that later in life by some kids and firecrackers they threw very close to her. Which was ok because I gave up bird hunting pretty much anyway, and totally not long after and haven't done it for years and years now.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TXRider
I love it! What does the statement below mean?



> I don't know if that was the best way, I didn't really plan to train her that way, in that order, it just worked out that way. I had never done anything of the sort before.


You had never done that type of work, but yet you not only did not ruin your dog with a plan you put to use, but you built a dog you could hunt with, how cool is that. When you get time, pat yourself on the back. There are many hunters who have ruined their 1st dogs.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> TXRider
> I love it! What does the statement below mean?
> 
> You had never done that type of work, but yet you not only did not ruin your dog with a plan you put to use, but you built a dog you could hunt with, how cool is that. When you get time, pat yourself on the back. There are many hunters who have ruined their 1st dogs.


Well that's just it, I didn't have a plan.

I got the dog because it was a mixed breed pup nobody wanted. I wasn't looking for a dog it just sort of happened. Lab mix.

I taught fetch at a few months old and it turned into her obsession. I played hide and seek and find it games... and fetching anything she could physically drag back. From balls to frisbee to branches to 4x4 posts... anything, doing it in water slowed her down and saved my arm.

I taught the hide and seek and find it and whistle and hand signals for my own sake too really, to save my shoulder from so much throwing every day and to see if she could learn it and I could teach it.

The rest was just experimenting to see if she would do it after I had her fetch a half dead egret one day that a car hit and she surprisingly was very gentle with it, I was expecting her to chew it up. To her it was just another fetch game. She was about 3yrs old before I fired a gun around her.

It wouldn't have bothered me at all if she had been gun shy, pretty much expected her to be or at least a 50/50 chance. She probably would have been if she hadn't mentally connected it to a fetch game for her right off the bat. The love of fetch overpowered the aversive of the noise, and she did show aversion to it.

Just a data point and something for folks to think about.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Since her reaction to the shooting was dramatic (for her) I am thinking the thing to do is get her used to gun fire, sudden loud noises etc. as something to pay attention to, but not anything to fear.


It's not likely Atka will have developed a permanent fear response from a one-time exposure to gunfire. Every dog is an individual so there are no guarantees, but it doesn't sound like her reaction was that extreme. Her shutting down could just as likely have been stress caused by the desire to react (protectively) to the gunfire vs. her training to stay calmly by your side. The instinct to aggress in the face of gunfire is probably lurking somewhere in her DNA.

In any event, I would work to un-do a negative reaction. Whether it was fear or some other kind of stress, it could result in other negative behaviors bubbling up in the future. I started my pup by slapping hardwood blocks together (you can control the volume) and moved up to low-power .22 blanks, high-power .22 blanks, .410 shotgun, 12 ga. poppers, low brass 20 ga., and 12 ga. game loads. No harm was ever done by being too cautious in the intro to gunfire.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

> always used a 2 prong attack, never fired a gun over a bird dog unless it was chasing a flushed bird strongly after a flush. “enjoying the work” I started with a 22 blank starter’s pistol at long distances and never fired more than once per session. With protection dogs a shot was never fired until dog was biting and “enjoying the work” The 1st shot is at a longer distance. The distance and caliber of gun is changed when the dog tells me to. Done properly the dogs never even hear the shots. I am not saying other methods do not work, these are the methods I used.


This is pretty much exactly what we did with Libby. 

We started with a starter's pistol from a long distance while she chased birds, and have worked up over the past year to a shotgun at hunting range. When fireworks go off in our neighbourhood, Libby thinks someone is hunting without her 

For dogs that are a bit more sensitive to the noise, I have heard of people starting out by popping bubble wrap.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

We kept it simple. Down. Stay. (ie - don't want to shoot dog accidentally). Shoot guns (from .22 to 12 g) for a while, ignoring the dog. Dog looks surprised on first shot then gets bored. There's probably better ways, especially if you have a particular purpose (e.g. hunting) in mind, but as in many things I think the dog will cue of your own behavior. If you are calm he is less likely to get spooked by Bang Bang. Making a fuss can be counterproductive.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

peppy264 said:


> We kept it simple. Down. Stay. (ie - don't want to shoot dog accidentally). Shoot guns (from .22 to 12 g) for a while, ignoring the dog. Dog looks surprised on first shot then gets bored. There's probably better ways, especially if you have a particular purpose (e.g. hunting) in mind, but as in many things I think the dog will cue of your own behavior. If you are calm he is less likely to get spooked by Bang Bang. Making a fuss can be counterproductive.


If your program worked I would not for the world say anything derogative because you had success with that dog.

There are many people doing the same thing that has ruined many dogs, as a lot of people do not have the ability to read their dogs. I stated earlier there are dogs that would fall asleep on a artillery range. It's the other dogs that while you are ignoring will start to flinch a bit and all of a sudden they are gone. There are dogs on a stay command that will stay and suffer through the noise but while loose and running free and a shot is fired that will bolt out of the country. The amount of dogs that are gunshyed the 1st day of hunting season is staggering.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

peppy264 said:


> We kept it simple. Down. Stay. (ie - don't want to shoot dog accidentally). Shoot guns (from .22 to 12 g) for a while, ignoring the dog. Dog looks surprised on first shot then gets bored. There's probably better ways, especially if you have a particular purpose (e.g. hunting) in mind, but as in many things I think the dog will cue of your own behavior. If you are calm he is less likely to get spooked by Bang Bang. Making a fuss can be counterproductive.


Don't try this at home, kids.

Some dogs will sail through extremely ill advised training methods, with flying colors, on the strength of their superior (even if accidental) genetics. That's no reason to call it a good idea, though. It's a helluva lot easier to make a dog gunshy than it is to rehabilitate one--if rehabilitation is even possible.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Like I said there are probably better ways of going about it; I was just re-iterating our own experience, not suggesting a methodology. Nonetheless, I think dogs do cue very much off their owners reactions to things (not just guns) and people often make the mistake of coddling their dogs when they show anxiety (and thus reinforcing a behavior you do not want).

In respect of gun training I absolutely defer to others above who obviously have had much more experience.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

peppy264 said:


> Like I said there are probably better ways of going about it; I was just re-iterating our own experience, not suggesting a methodology. Nonetheless, I think dogs do cue very much off their owners reactions to things (not just guns) and people often make the mistake of coddling their dogs when they show anxiety (and thus reinforcing a behavior you do not want).
> 
> In respect of gun training I absolutely defer to others above who obviously have had much more experience.


Ditto..

With me it was just experimenting and hopefully setting the situation up for success. She was just exposed to my firing a 12 gauge up close and a fetch. Smart? I dunno, probably not. I had no idea at the time either.

But it didn't matter as I didn't have my heart set on her succeeding, and had she been gun shy that would have been the end of it.

There are likely hunting dog training boards with much more expertise well thought out approaches out there.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your replies.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> I watched a dog at a trap/skeet club that was tied to a bumper that was fine for the 1st 5 or 6 shotgun blasts and by the 10th he was under the car and had to be dragged out. The owner was one of the owners who listened to his friends on how to get his dog ready for hunting. I was a young hunter and not a dog trainer at that time and I thought the concept was kinda stupid but the owner and his friends were know it alls. Oh yes that particular pup was put down and those were the old school days.
> He was put down with a bullet.


Yeah, that happens all the time around here. At LEAST 75% of "hunt'n dogs" are ruined, probably more. The lucky ones end up at the shelter (which is full of gun-shy Labs), most of them just don't come back from their training session. It's common knowlege that you'll go through a few dogs before you find a "good one". I'm beginning to object to using dogs for hunting/retrieving altogether.

Willow wasn't gun-shy at first. I'd take her with us when my dad went to the gun range and throw her toy, and she didn't care at all. When she was about 8 or 9 months old, my brother and his friend threw firecrackers at her, and she was terrified of gunfire forever after. It was OK, since I had no intention of teaching her to retrieve, but I could have cheerfully strangled my brother. 

My grandpa ruined his Lab with the old "firing pistol while eating" thing. If he was younger I think he would have shot him, but since he was about 75 years old at the time, not really hunting anymore, he decided to just keep the dog for a pet.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, that happens all the time around here. At LEAST 75% of "hunt'n dogs" are ruined, probably more. The lucky ones end up at the shelter (which is full of gun-shy Labs), most of them just don't come back from their training session. It's common knowlege that you'll go through a few dogs before you find a "good one". I'm beginning to object to using dogs for hunting/retrieving altogether.
> 
> Willow wasn't gun-shy at first. I'd take her with us when my dad went to the gun range and throw her toy, and she didn't care at all. When she was about 8 or 9 months old, my brother and his friend threw firecrackers at her, and she was terrified of gunfire forever after. It was OK, since I had no intention of teaching her to retrieve, but I could have cheerfully strangled my brother.
> 
> My grandpa ruined his Lab with the old "firing pistol while eating" thing. If he was younger I think he would have shot him, but since he was about 75 years old at the time, not really hunting anymore, he decided to just keep the dog for a pet.


Excellent bit of gun news, If you want to get a nice dog don't adopt. Just wait till opening day of bird hunting (any state) you can go to the public/permit hunting land(IL) and drive around and try to be careful that you don't run over any running away dogs and you have a choice of whatever you want, GSP, Weimie, Lab, whatever. I'm being a tad facetious, but just a tad as you will definitely see a dog or two running for his life.

On DF we have posters who mean well and jump in with their personal dog experiences. That's great and I would never say no to that program. Problems that can occur is that when you have owned 5 hunting dogs and have used "the just fire guns around your dogs" to desensitize the dogs and it has worked, the next 10 dogs it may not work. I think this thread has been balanced out appropriately to show there are different ways to start dogs with guns.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> On DF we have posters who mean well and jump in with their personal dog experiences. That's great and I would never say no to that program. Problems that can occur is that when you have owned 5 hunting dogs and have used "the just fire guns around your dogs" to desensitize the dogs and it has worked, the next 10 dogs it may not work. I think this thread has been balanced out appropriately to show there are different ways to start dogs with guns.


Very true.

If I fired gun around Hope I might have to catch up to her in the next county I would bet, but if I did it while she was zeroed in on a nearby squirrel she likely wouldn't even hear it at all, her prey drive is as strong as I've ever seen in a dog. If I did that a few times and released the leash every time I fired, she'd likely love the sound of gunfire.

She's a shepherd though, not a bird dog like a lab. Which makes me think and question how do law enforcement K-9's get trained to tolerate gunfire, or do they? Also what happens to the ones who fail and are gun shy?

I would think law enforcement k9's are trained to build very strong drives, and trained while deep in those drives. I think I'll have to go chase down some answers there.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Very true.
> 
> If I fired gun around Hope I might have to catch up to her in the next county I would bet, but if I did it while she was zeroed in on a nearby squirrel she likely wouldn't even hear it at all, her prey drive is as strong as I've ever seen in a dog. If I did that a few times and released the leash every time I fired, she'd likely love the sound of gunfire.
> 
> ...


It does work exactly the same build up the bite/prey and they never hear the shots. The ones that fail depends on the individual state/county laws. The good news that gradually in the last 3 decades the head trainers in charge of dog-work have improved a bunch. 
Many years ago for some it was actually a political appt and had nothing to do with dog trainer experience. 
Weird Huh!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Excellent bit of gun news, If you want to get a nice dog don't adopt. Just wait till opening day of bird hunting (any state) you can go to the public/permit hunting land(IL) and drive around and try to be careful that you don't run over any running away dogs and you have a choice of whatever you want, GSP, Weimie, Lab, whatever. I'm being a tad facetious, but just a tad as you will definitely see a dog or two running for his life.


Yeah, all the time. My dad's friend lost his English Setter that way, and, although he actually WANTED her back (most hunters don't), he found her dead in the ditch with a hole in her head  . Evidently someone was "cleaning up" after the hunters. And my aunt and uncle have had all kinds of sporting dogs show up at their farm, some with e-collars still attached. They don't stay long (the don't know where they go after that, and they don't try to keep them contained), but there must have been dozens of them over the years. 3-4 a year, at least. 

Like I said, I'm starting to object to any hunt training for any dog......abuse is the rule rather than the exception.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, all the time. My dad's friend lost his English Setter that way, and, although he actually WANTED her back (most hunters don't), he found her dead in the ditch with a hole in her head  . Evidently someone was "cleaning up" after the hunters. And my aunt and uncle have had all kinds of sporting dogs show up at their farm, some with e-collars still attached. They don't stay long (the don't know where they go after that, and they don't try to keep them contained), but there must have been dozens of them over the years. 3-4 a year, at least.
> 
> Like I said, I'm starting to object to any hunt training for any dog......abuse is the rule rather than the exception.


You are going to find jerks everywhere, I hope some potential hunters maybe have read this thread and got educated a little and it save some dog down the road. It probably won't but one can only hope. I used to summer train in the Forestberg / Woonsocket area, half way between Huron and Mitchell S.D.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, all the time. My dad's friend lost his English Setter that way, and, although he actually WANTED her back (most hunters don't), he found her dead in the ditch with a hole in her head  . Evidently someone was "cleaning up" after the hunters. And my aunt and uncle have had all kinds of sporting dogs show up at their farm, some with e-collars still attached. They don't stay long (the don't know where they go after that, and they don't try to keep them contained), but there must have been dozens of them over the years. 3-4 a year, at least.
> 
> Like I said, I'm starting to object to any hunt training for any dog......abuse is the rule rather than the exception.


This statement makes me sad. You have seen the results of bad training and abuse.. it is not necessarily the rule. 

Blanketing an entire group because of the bad ones is just not the way to fix anything. Beyond that, don't forget the stupid stupid owners who buy a "gun dog" and slap an e collar on it and ruin it the first day out.. or the ones who get a pup and think that the dog will just naturally "do it" and they end up blinking the dog on birds and it is ruined forever. There are also good and caring trainers who want their dogs to work well.. who compete and who win... and who do not go thru 12 dogs to get one that works... 

Back when soring of the Tenessee Walking horse to quickly get the high stepping was reasonably prevalent, there was talk of everything from banning the shows to banning the breed and sending it to extinction. Fortunately policing fixed a lot of it. The shame of that whole thing was how all trainers were assumed to sore their horses.. and there were many who never did, never would and who won at shows. 

There is abuse all across the animal world. It is never acceptable. There is abuse in any dog sport by some people. Schutzhund used to be known for it. Rather than ban the sport, would it not be far better to educate the participants? 

Education has worked in dog training and in horse training. Just look at this forum and see how many people land on someone for promoting Positive Punishment and correction based training methods. I know that 20 years ago almost every trainer was correction based. We have come a long way baby.. and we need to keep going. 

Banning a sport or a breed is not the answer.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh, I wouldn't support banning it.....I AM a South Dakotan after all  . Don't tread on us, LOL. 

I just object to it personally. Like, if I had to re-home a litter of Labs (bound to come up at some point), I wouldn't adopt any to anyone intending to hunt train. Like I said, by my observations, abuse is the RULE to hunt training, not the exception. Of course, one could debate my idea of what constitutes "abuse". 

But a dog trained to trial does not have a good life or a long one, and a lot of just plain "hunt'n" dogs do not, either. If the dog is primarily a pet, they just have a few bad months a year, but if the dog is kept kenneled in the off-season, really it's a bad life all around.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

> But a dog trained to trial does not have a good life or a long one


Someone tell Libby that she is going to have a short, crappy life!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Sorry, should have said "most" or "in my experience" or some other qualifier like that.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Its been YEARS since I have been involved with gun dogs. But I was the chief kennel cleaner, bird feeder, bird planter, poop washer, dog brusher, burr picker, and anything else you can imagine for years in my Grandfathers kennel.

I might miss a fine point here and there but here are the basics of the way we did it.

First, he had a noisy kennel. Grandaddy had speakers up in the kennel and played music, sports shows, etc at random times and at random volumes. When pups were on the ground it was pretty much 24/7 radio. We also made other random noises. Food and suppies were kept in metal garbage cans. Lids were clanked off, food and water bowls clanked around, etc. Doors were slammed or closed loudly etc.

We NEVER fired any sort of gun around the kennels.

We NEVER fired a gun around a dog to "see" if it was gun shy.

We NEVER exposed the dogs to fireworks.

We NEVER took the dogs to Gun Ranges

We NEVER took a puppy that had not been exposed to gunfire out in the field in a hunting situation. 

We NEVER hunted a dog that had not been exposed to guns and gunfire. 

His system worked like this.... Dogs grew up in a noisy kennel. We exposed to guns but not gun fire from day one, Exposed and allowed to hunt chase, etc seed birds, then exposed to gun fire. 

We had several 20 gauge single shots that stayed around the kennel. We would take them off and shoot a bunch of rounds through them but not clean them. We would carry these guns around the kennel when feeding, watering, cleaning, etc. (unloaded of course) So the dogs got used to the sight and smell of shotguns. 

When we were ready to start training a pup we would seed a field with some of our pen raised birds. We would take the dog out almost right on top of one of the seeded birds and let him find the bird. We did no training at this time. We just wanted the dog to have fun finding and chasing the birds. You might have to get him close to where you seeded the birds on the first trip. But after that he usually knew what was up when you went to the field. We would go a couple more times. BTW we were always carrying previously fired unloaded shotguns with us. ANYTIME you did anything with the dog you had a gun in your hand. 

After a few trips just letting the dog chase birds, we brought in a starter pistol. We used to use those small crimped .22 caps to start with. Grandaddy would follow the dog as it looked for birds. He would have a helper (usually me) standing off about 100 feet or so with the starter pistol. As soon as the bird took flight he would raise his empty shot gun up which was a signal for me to fire the starter pistol. IF the dog did not flinch I would move in a few feet for the next bird. If the dog did react to the shot, we would let him find a few birds without firing the starter pistol then I would move a litter farther away and we would try again. Some dogs you could be standing behind them firing a starter pistol within a few birds. Some it took a couple of trips. Once they were good with the small crimped caps, we would back up and use louder blanks. We followed the same process until we could shoot the starter gun right by the dog. Then we backed up with a 28 gauge and started over. Once we made it to the shotgun, we started training the dog, holding points, not flushing birds, etc. Sometimes it took as little as three trips afield to be able to shoot over the dog with a 28 gauge, sometimes it might take ten trips. Depended on the dog. 

I don't remember ever having a gun shy dog using this method. I also remember helping 'fix" already gun shy dogs using this method. 

Grandaddy was always very particular about who was around his kennels and his dogs. He used to say no dog is born gun shy but one idiot can change that with a single pull of the trigger. 

As I said, I may have missed some finer points. It has been over 20 years since I messed with bird dogs aside from hunting over friends dogs. But this was the method we used.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Sorry, should have said "most" or "in my experience" or some other qualifier like that.


Yes, you should have used a qualifier. Many years ago the trend was hunting dogs in general were suppose to be kept out of the home. That was a total load of bull***t. Even way back in the Jurassic era there were trainers/owners that had their competition and plain old hunting dogs in their homes. Yes training was tough on dogs and I'm sure you're correct that some dogs had a short life because there were jerks then as there are now. I know as a fact that many dogs lived to the average age they should have, Field Champions and good old Gundogs. To think otherwise would be saying that all people are jerks and that's just not true.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> . To think otherwise would be saying that all people are jerks and that's just not true.


Maybe not, but I've known people who are not normally jerks who think treating animals like equipment (bash it around if it doesn't do what you want, throw it out when it doesn't work properly anymore) is perfectly fine. They're not trying to be cruel, but they don't know any better and think that's how you're supposed to treat animals. These guys would give you the shirt off their back, rebuild your barn if it burned, take care of your crops if you're sick, etc.......and shoot a young healthy dog because it eats poop or is gunshy, or knock their old dog in the head because he can't retrieve anymore. They have no compassion for animals at all. It's just The Way Things Are.

And I know I seen you post that trial training methods are frequently brutal. As I said, you can debate my definition of "abuse", but that's how I feel.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Maybe not, but I've known people who are not normally jerks who think treating animals like equipment (bash it around if it doesn't do what you want, throw it out when it doesn't work properly anymore) is perfectly fine. They're not trying to be cruel, but they don't know any better and think that's how you're supposed to treat animals. These guys would give you the shirt off their back, rebuild your barn if it burned, take care of your crops if you're sick, etc.......and shoot a young healthy dog because it eats poop or is gunshy, or knock their old dog in the head because he can't retrieve anymore. They have no compassion for animals at all. It's just The Way Things Are.
> 
> And I know I seen you post that trial training methods are frequently brutal. As I said, you can debate my definition of "abuse", but that's how I feel.


You surely are not getting any debate from me on anything. There is one standard rule that has never changed, For many people and dogs, Life is tough and then they die


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

On farms, often the livestock is just that.. Livestock (including dogs and barn cats). 

But, to set things straight, not on EVERY farm. My cows all had names, the cats all had names, were fixed and regularly fed, watered and vaccinated and the dogs were the same. Dogs and cats lived in the house (not ALL the cats, but anyone who needed extra care etc.). 

I have seen what Willowy describes. I have to say this.. on those farms the animals were not top producers, from the barn cats to the cows. 

You don't get to the top thru abuse or neglect. You don't make money either. I can say that even in the bad years I made a profit. 

When I stopped farming I looked at farm mamagement jobs and I never took one. I could walk on a farm and look at things and on most (not all) could see maybe 4 things they could change that would increase productivity and the bottom line. You know what I heard if I mentioned any of them? "We never did THAT before." 

Resisting changes, in spite of the profitable and positive results of that change, is just plain narrow minded. The difference between a champion (herd, dog, horse etc.) and an also ran is often not as much the animal.. it is often the management of that animal.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I once as a young man got into a heated discussion at a hunt club with a man that had a male weimeraner that should have weighed in at about 50 lbs and I will bet he never reached 35 lbs in total weight including an e-collar. You could count every rib and his backbone/hips etc. He looked like he stepped out of Auschwitz This hunt club released birds the night before and sometimes you actually had to hunt to get your quota of birds which meant 2 or 3 hrs in morning, eat lunch, hunt 2 or 3 hrs in the afternoon. This man was 45 yrs old or abouts and I was 19 pushing 20. I tried to explain to the man that his dog if hunted for a couple hrs he would have no energy/drive left to hunt properly. I explained the "see the last rib" on a dog and no hips or backbones should never be seen at all. This was 7 yrs before I decided to train and compete with bird-dogs but it was just common sense. This is abuse/stupidity also, his theory was that if his dog was hungry he would be a better hunter. It was his excuse for not caring properly for his dog.

Look where we are now though with the care given dogs and some of the questions asked on DF from people that are truly interested in proper and humane care. I think big strides have been made but you're still gonna have idiots out there.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> I stated earlier there are dogs that would fall asleep on a artillery range.


I'd like to get Wally some of this. Can such courage be bottled? 

I wouldn't have to worry about sounds with him anymore. 

BTW, this thread is really interesting. Not a hunter (or even a gun-sports fan), but if dogs can be desensitized to that level of explosive sound, it makes me wonder why I can't get Wally over his sounds issue (namely kids).


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## warandchaos (Jun 1, 2009)

The only method i can see which wont cause too much stress is the one with a stereo.
Play gun noises at a low volume at lunch time, just at a slightly audiable level.
Then every few sessions slightly raise the volume of the stereo.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> BTW, this thread is really interesting. Not a hunter (or even a gun-sports fan), but if dogs can be desensitized to that level of explosive sound, it makes me wonder why I can't get Wally over his sounds issue (namely kids).


Some dogs just never will get over the issue. If your dog was improperly exposed to obnoxious noises during the critical fear imprint period, you may never get him over it to a satisfactory degree. And any improvement will likely require a great deal of owner commitment. Taking past experience out of the equation, some dogs are just nervous by disposition. Take a temperamentally unsuitable dog and improperly expose him to gunfire, and *BANG* you can create an instant basket case. Pun intended.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> BTW, this thread is really interesting. Not a hunter (or even a gun-sports fan), but if dogs can be desensitized to that level of explosive sound, it makes me wonder why I can't get Wally over his sounds issue (namely kids).


My last dog was that way around kids, and nippy toward them. Until she learned they were suckers for gobs of free treats... Then it turned around big time.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

KBLover said:


> I'd like to get Wally some of this. Can such courage be bottled?
> 
> I wouldn't have to worry about sounds with him anymore.
> 
> BTW, this thread is really interesting. Not a hunter (or even a gun-sports fan), but if dogs can be desensitized to that level of explosive sound, it makes me wonder why I can't get Wally over his sounds issue (namely kids).


Dogs like the artillery range dogs aren't really desensitized to that type of program. These dogs are born that way. We have had a couple posters that have stated the methods they used was just to shoot guns around their dogs and there were no problems. It's the dogs on the cusp that we have to be careful with, the ones that can go either way. 

I knew a trainer that guaranteed he could cure gunshyness, the method he used was no water for 2 or 3 days and would salt the dogs. When dogs in a kennel approached a water bucket he would fire gun. Eventually the dogs would drink while guns went off. (or die) The only problem was when dogs were loose in a field attempting to hunt and bird popped up usually the bird and dogs were gone. The only method I ever had success with was making dog bird crazy and as I have said before eventually properly introduced shots were not heard.


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## warandchaos (Jun 1, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Dogs like the artillery range dogs aren't really desensitized to that type of program. These dogs are born that way. We have had a couple posters that have stated the methods they used was just to shoot guns around their dogs and there were no problems. It's the dogs on the cusp that we have to be careful with, the ones that can go either way.
> 
> I knew a trainer that guaranteed he could cure gunshyness, the method he used was no water for 2 or 3 days and would salt the dogs. When dogs in a kennel approached a water bucket he would fire gun. Eventually the dogs would drink while guns went off. (or die) The only problem was when dogs were loose in a field attempting to hunt and bird popped up usually the bird and dogs were gone. The only method I ever had success with was making dog bird crazy and as I have said before eventually properly introduced shots were not heard.


Thats cruel, surely that cant be allowed.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> I knew a trainer that guaranteed he could cure gunshyness, the method he used was no water for 2 or 3 days and would salt the dogs. When dogs in a kennel approached a water bucket he would fire gun. Eventually the dogs would drink while guns went off. (or die)


That's training while in drive I suppose, just not a useful drive or one I ever want a dog to experience and that treatment would illegal in most places.

Making the firing of the gun a cue for getting to satisfy a fetch (prey) drive sounds like the best situation, a dog that looks forward to gunfire not just tolerates it. At least that was my intent. A dog that is disappointed when you miss..


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TxRider said:


> That's training while in drive I suppose, just not a useful drive or one I ever want a dog to experience and that treatment would illegal in most places.
> 
> Making the firing of the gun a cue for getting to satisfy a fetch (prey) drive sounds like the best situation, a dog that looks forward to gunfire not just tolerates it. At least that was my intent. A dog that is disappointed when you miss..


My training of gun-shy dogs was limited to strictly bird-dogs. So I had a big step up, I had the birds. The sneaky part of the water method is I'm sure there probably were dogs that it worked on. My thoughts were if the dogs were not true bird-dogs (crazy for birds) the gun was not important anyway, just keep dog as pet. Yes, some gunshy dogs were kept as pets, I know this personally and not a guesstimate. I know in "the old school days" all trainers and all people were bad, bad, bad bad. At least that's what the "today" people like to think and comment on.

Especially people who weren't there.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> My training of gun-shy dogs was limited to strictly bird-dogs. So I had a big step up, I had the birds. The sneaky part of the water method is I'm sure there probably were dogs that it worked on. My thoughts were if the dogs were not true bird-dogs (crazy for birds) the gun was not important anyway, just keep dog as pet. Yes, some gunshy dogs were kept as pets, I know this personally and not a guesstimate. I know in "the old school days" all trainers and all people were bad, bad, bad bad. _At least that's what the "*today*" people like to think and comment on._
> 
> *Especially people who weren't there*.


I really love this so much. You just needed to be there. 

The problem with history is all of it is an interpretation of the past as written by someone in that present moment.. which also becomes history and is written about. Sometimes the present cannot interpret the past because the context has changed so much. 

And just as in the present, there were jerks and idiots and thoughtful people were outnumbered by both. Not much has changed. 

I have learned much from this thread BTW.


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