# Peoples Thoughts on Vaccinations



## HicktownJuliet (Aug 26, 2012)

I would like to know peoples thoughts on vaccinations. When I was in high school and we got our first "family dog", he was taken for his set of three puppy vaccinations and then yearly for a few years after. When I moved and got my own dog, Dally, I never did get her any puppy shots. I do want to take her in for a rabies shot, but she has never had any sort of vaccinations. I had done some research about them and decided not to give them. From what I found, after about 6 months of not being vaccinated, the immune system is very strong. (If thats worded correctly lol). I have never had any problems with her, but now that we will be getting into Agility, are there any shots that she should be getting besides rabies? I don't pump myself with unnecessary "medications" and never get the flu shot because of whats in it, so I felt I should do the same for my dogs. Reba is 9 weeks old, and im debating getting her shots. I will raise her the same as Dally and keep her in a very controlled environment while she is very young. What are your thoughts on this?? lol I'm trying to weigh the options.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I would get her bordatella vaccine but that's just me. I would also get parvo for your puppy, not worth the risk.


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## HicktownJuliet (Aug 26, 2012)

For both Dally and baby Reba?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

How do you know or even define her immune system as "healthy"? I just ... ahem. Okay, I'll be nice.

Parvo, distemper and rabies are a MUST. Those are horrible, horrible ways to die and are utterly preventable.


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## HicktownJuliet (Aug 26, 2012)

I actually know a lot of people who go the vaccine free way. Here is a site that talks about it.  

http://www.catscradlecatahoulas.com/html/minimal_vaccines.html
http://www.catscradlecatahoulas.com/html/puppy_vaccine_protocol.html

I tend to you herbs and oils when ever I can, I find them to be more effective. I use raindrop therapy, reiki treatments, and many different oils to heal, clam, pretty what ever you want/need to do!  I also stich up wounds, and do lots of medical care myself. On all my horses, dogs, cats, and what ever else I may have at the time. lol


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

I would always do at least the set of puppy shots and then titer yearly after that. Many times the puppy shots are all that is needed. Here by law we have to do rabies, no way to get around it. My vet does the 3yr shots though. 


Belle will have a titer this summer to see if she still has immunity from her puppy shots. I should have run the titer last summer but didn't. She developed IMT after her last puppy shot in July of 2013 so I am hoping her titer shows immunity yet. If she doesn't have immunity I will have her get the shot as like Amarylis said, parvo and distemper are nothing to mess with. Belle did get her rabies shot at one year of age, after she had fully recovered from the IMT and had no negative reaction to that. Maya and Angel have always gotten their shots, they are on 3 yr schedules for all their shots except Lymes and Lepto which are yearly. I do their shots differently though with no two ever being given at the same time. I space any shots 4 weeks apart.


Edited to add....Maya was a parvo puppy and while she did survive it is nothing I would ever want to go through again.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Check with the facility where you're doing agility - a lot of facilities here require rabies and DHPP, some require bortadella, and some require tick/flea prevention. Some will accept titre tests in place of proof of vaccination.

IMO, there is no reason _not_ to get the puppy shots. The risk of not doing so just outweighs the risks of the vaccines (which are very, very small). Whether a dog gets boosters for them as an adult is more flexible (and even not getting boosters done, the dog is likely to retain some immunity from the shots as a puppy). Even unvaccinated adult dogs can get parvo, although they are more likely to survive it than young puppies, it is still not a nice illness to witness.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there is no evidence in the scientific literature that "over vaccination" (which most people can't seem to really define anyway) causes any harm. There is lots of evidence that diseases that are easily preventable via vaccination cause harm.


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## JanJanBunny (Feb 23, 2013)

I personally vaccinate all my dogs. I worked at a vet clinic before starting to study full time, and too many pups came with parvo and distemper to just die a horrible death. In my country, it is just not worth the risk. 

In your case, for the adult, if in your area it isn't a threat and you are against it, but wish to do it for the agility, I would vaccinate against bordatella (its usually called kennel cough, highly contagious) and rabies, and just ask the facility which vaccines they require, and then all puppy shots for the pup.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I definitely wouldn't ever skip puppy shots. Parvo is just... awful. Beyond awful. Plus, as someone else mentioned, rabies is required by law here. We did stretch out her puppy shots so they weren't all at once (and we technically delayed the rabies shot longer than the law requires - which is by 3 months of age). Now we do every three years, but I'm looking into a more holistic vet who titer tests. However, bordatella is highly suggested by our training place and REQUIRED by the private dog parks and the boarding/day care place, so she gets that, too.

Really it's going to depend on what the facilities require and what the law where you are might require. But yeah, I definitely wouldn't skip puppy shots...


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## HicktownJuliet (Aug 26, 2012)

Thanks guys!  I'm going in this afternoon to discuss with our vet, what would be a good fit for Dally and Reba. I'm also looking into doing the titer test to check Dally's immunity to the Parvo virus. BUT we might have to go to the big city for that.  I have taken Dally in for check ups, to see how she is doing and I have always gotten nothing but complements from the vet clinic staff on how healthy she is, so that is why I say she is healthy.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

HicktownJuliet said:


> Thanks guys!  I'm going in this afternoon to discuss with our vet, what would be a good fit for Dally and Reba. I'm also looking into doing the titer test to check Dally's immunity to the Parvo virus. BUT we might have to go to the big city for that.  I have taken Dally in for check ups, to see how she is doing and I have always gotten nothing but complements from the vet clinic staff on how healthy she is, so that is why I say she is healthy.


I'm _think_ titres are done by sending a blood sample away to a lab (in which case you might not have to go into the city - your vet would just have to do a blood draw and send the sample, but your vet would know for sure).  I would be very surprised if there are many vets that do in-house titres; they require some pretty specific lab equipment, reagents, and lab-trained personnel.


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## HicktownJuliet (Aug 26, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> I'm _think_ titres are done by sending a blood sample away to a lab (in which case you might not have to go into the city - your vet would just have to do a blood draw and send the sample, but your vet would know for sure).  I would be very surprised if there are many vets that do in-house titres; they require some pretty specific lab equipment, reagents, and lab-trained personnel.


Yes, we have to send it away. It goes to Ontario.  Its about 100.00 total to get the blood drawn and shipped. We go next month to get that done.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

If you plan to do agility, there's another reason for vaccinations. Most people assume that adult dogs are up to date on shots, and not a concern for infections. However, if your unvaxed dog is exposed to an infected puppy, then your dog may get infected. The disease may not hurt your dog, but your dog might then expose an incompletely vaxed puppy to a potentially fatal disease, and no one would understand how the vaxed puppy got exposed and sick.

An up to date, vaccinated dog should not be a carrier. An unvaccinated dog can easily be a carrier, regardless of health. [Consider: Typhoid Mary]


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## moluno (Apr 29, 2009)

I would absolutely do puppy shots. Have I ever seen or even heard of a dog having distemper? No, I haven't - and that's because of vaccines. But beyond the puppy series, everyone just has to find what they're comfortable with. My 6 and 9 year old dogs have not been vaccinated since they were 1 year old, and I don't plan on vaccinating them again unless they need it for something. I'm a believer that their immunity to these diseases lasts longer than what the vaccine manufacturers are able to claim. 

I get that it may be "risky" but it can't be said that there is no risk associated with vaccines, either. 

I think it also depends on the incidence of disease in your area.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Vaccinations=good. 

There have been no definitive *scientific* studies showing that the possible consequences of vaccines outweigh the benefits. Therefore, vaccinate. Animals die of stupid crap in the wild all the time. You don't want that happening to your dog.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Also, that site that you linked says that literally anything health related that can happen to a dog is caused by vaccinations. 



> Over-vaccinating can cause many health problems for animals,
> mainly associated with the immune system being compromised.
> Autoimmune diseases such as lupus, red cell aplasia, autoimmune hemolytic anemia
> cardiomyopathies; neoplasias such as fibrosarcomas, mast cell tumors,
> ...


(from http://www.catscradlecatahoulas.com/html/minimal_vaccines.html)


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

> The body's immune system is a marvelous thing, if we can only trust to let it work the way it was designed to.


(from http://www.catscradlecatahoulas.com/html/puppy_vaccine_protocol.html)

That particular quote irks me. Yes, our immune systems are marvelous. But so are viruses and bacteria. And it is very _very _natural to get sick and die.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I follow Dr Jean Dodd's protocol and try to keep the vaccines to a minimum, but I follow my vet's recommendations.

So unnecessary things like yearly rabies are definitely a no-no, but things like lepto, for example, the vet said not to bother with since it's not prevalent in the area.

With my cats I'm even more lax but that's because they are strictly indoor only.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> I'm _think_ titres are done by sending a blood sample away to a lab (in which case you might not have to go into the city - your vet would just have to do a blood draw and send the sample, but your vet would know for sure).  I would be very surprised if there are many vets that do in-house titres; they require some pretty specific lab equipment, reagents, and lab-trained personnel.


Where I work at we do in house parvo and distemper titre tests. It does not require any special equipment to do. It is this test here . http://www.synbiotics.com/Products/CompanionAnimals/Canine/TiterCHEK-CDV-CPV-Parvo.html 

Now for rabies titre that will have to be done by a state approved lab. I know of one here in the states is located in Kansas.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Go work in a vet clinic and see a puppy die a horrible death due to distemper. Distemper is real and it is out there. So is parvo. Another disease that can cause death. It caused a 15 month old pitbull to end it's life today at the clinic because it had parvo. It is much cheaper to vaccinate a dog than to treat or try to save a dog from parvo. Wild canines are also at risk for getting this disease. Parvo wiped out a wolf pack in Yellowstone. Odd thing was this wolf pack chased away the wolf pack in the area. In the spring, parvo attacked this pack and wiped them out but for a few wolves. The old wolf pack who had been chased out had rebuilt its number and reclaimed the territory because not many wolves survived the parvo outbreak. This is the risk you take by not vaccinating. Will your dog be the one to overcome parvo if it gets it or will it succumb to it? Are you willing to take that chance? I used to work with a girl with your belief. Six months in and she saw how many dogs and puppies got parvo, she brought her dogs in for vaccines. She did a titre test first. Nope, no titre. She was scared she would bring the parvo home to her dogs. This could be you if you bring your dogs out in public or even if you go out in public. You can bring it home to your dogs. Not worth the risk in my books. 

I do the puppy vaccines and then a 3 year rotational vaccine protocol. Many will do it this way because it is cheaper to do the vaccines than a titre test.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

luv mi pets said:


> Where I work at we do in house parvo and distemper titre tests. It does not require any special equipment to do. It is this test here . http://www.synbiotics.com/Products/CompanionAnimals/Canine/TiterCHEK-CDV-CPV-Parvo.html
> 
> Now for rabies titre that will have to be done by a state approved lab. I know of one here in the states is located in Kansas.


Huh. For some reason I thought titres were done using western blot (probably because I'm not up to date with my molecular biology tests). I also did not realize that ELISA was so quick and dirty. Thanks for the info!


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## olivethedog (Feb 21, 2014)

chimunga said:


> Vaccinations=good.
> 
> There have been no definitive *scientific* studies showing that the possible consequences of vaccines outweigh the benefits. Therefore, vaccinate. Animals die of stupid crap in the wild all the time. You don't want that happening to your dog.


This.
The thing about not vaccinating is that it works out okay... Until it doesn't. And then you have a severely ill animal. Sure, you _can_ choose to rely on natural exposure to provide your dogs with an immune response. That does work - some animals will not develop clinical signs of infection, will seroconvert, and gain immunity. However, a lot of animals will develop clinical signs and suffer permanent effects (e.g. old dog encephalitis from distemper, cerebellar hypoplasia from in utero exposure to feline panleukopenia) or death. These disease agents are really good at getting the upper hand on an immune system - _it's their job_.

Vaccines are not made for fun. They're made to prevent serious illness in our companion animals. Yes, there is a real risk of adverse events associated with vaccination. However, these events may or may not happen (and the vast, vast majority of the time they don't). Olive maaaayyy have a reaction to a distemper vaccination at some point in her life. Maybe. But, I can guarantee you her risk of adverse effects is a lot lower than if she actually got distemper.

As someone mentioned earlier, the only reason we're even having this conversation on the necessity of vaccination is _because of vaccines_. They're too effective and many of us have never even seen an actual case of the diseases they prevent. We're becoming complacent. However, if a large enough portion of people choose to stop vaccinating, they will come back (a la measles).

If you'd like science-based discussion on vaccination, I highly recommend the Facebook group "Vaccine Information Awareness." The group focuses on human vaccination, but the principles are the same. Lots of very knowledgeable people posting excellent resources.

As for what I do - Olive is vaccinated following AAHA guidelines with considerations for her lifestyle.


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## moluno (Apr 29, 2009)

luv mi pets said:


> Go work in a vet clinic and see a puppy die a horrible death due to distemper. Distemper is real and it is out there. So is parvo. Another disease that can cause death. It caused a 15 month old pitbull to end it's life today at the clinic because it had parvo. It is much cheaper to vaccinate a dog than to treat or try to save a dog from parvo. Wild canines are also at risk for getting this disease. Parvo wiped out a wolf pack in Yellowstone. Odd thing was this wolf pack chased away the wolf pack in the area. In the spring, parvo attacked this pack and wiped them out but for a few wolves. The old wolf pack who had been chased out had rebuilt its number and reclaimed the territory because not many wolves survived the parvo outbreak. This is the risk you take by not vaccinating. Will your dog be the one to overcome parvo if it gets it or will it succumb to it? Are you willing to take that chance? I used to work with a girl with your belief. Six months in and she saw how many dogs and puppies got parvo, she brought her dogs in for vaccines. She did a titre test first. Nope, no titre. She was scared she would bring the parvo home to her dogs. This could be you if you bring your dogs out in public or even if you go out in public. You can bring it home to your dogs. Not worth the risk in my books.
> 
> I do the puppy vaccines and then a 3 year rotational vaccine protocol. Many will do it this way because it is cheaper to do the vaccines than a titre test.


This is also where it becomes region-dependent. I work at a clinic and have not seen parvo, or even a suspected parvo case. The vets I work with haven't seen a parvo case in years. Just not prevalent here. This being said, I'm also that person that takes 8 week old puppies to parks and pet stores and doesn't mind letting them walk around and explore. 


I'm pretty cool with people doing whatever they want as long as it's an educated choice. I choose to focus my preventative care on other things. I'll reiterate that I think puppy vax are important but that I largely think vaccinating adults is overkill. I'm also much stricter on what I consider "unhealthy" and therefore unfit for vaccinating, but that might be another topic


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I do Parvo, Distemper if there was any cases locally in recent history and nothing else except Rabies if I'm traveling. I do NOT do the puppy series, I do ONE parvo or parvo/distemper between 12-16 weeks and that's it, ever. Rabies i prefer to wait till a minimum of 6 months old. You shouldn't run into any training club issues with limited vaccines, Saskatchewan training clubs tend to be extremely limited vaccine friendly, I've been competing and training for years with extremely minimally vaccinated dogs and i have never run into even the slightest hint of a problem, your probably more likely to run into conflict FOR vaccinating a lot lol. Don't bother with Bordatella, its next to useless and the virus is not that dangerous.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

moluno said:


> I work at a clinic and have not seen parvo, or even a suspected parvo case. The vets I work with haven't seen a parvo case in years. Just not prevalent here.


I wonder why? ;-)


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## PuppyWag (Jan 24, 2015)

A lot of people are against vaccinations but honestly the supposed risks seem way overhyped and exaggerated. My puppy had all his vaccinations and is fine, can't say he'd be as well if he got a deadly disease...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My agility place requires copies of the dog's medical records showing the dog is up to date on vaccinations. They may allow titres, I don't know. Every training place I've been to requires it. It is a liability thing for the trainers and facility owners. They can't have unvaccinated dogs coming in. So yeah... you would not be allowed to train at any of the facilities I've been to. 

I do all puppy vaccines and then 3 year rotational vaccines. I am pretty sure I will not do any more vaccines for Summer since she's older and having some medical issues. But I will discuss with my vet first.

I think vaccines do far more good than possible risk. I really really dislike this trend of no vaccination.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

The OP is in Saskatchewan, the chances of her running into a training facility here that gives two hoots about her dogs vaccines are slim to none. At MOST i have run into "when was your dog last vaccinated" as a random "just toss it in there" question, with the form never actually being looked at, and nobody ever asking for proof. Heck I've been taking Sola with me to Paisley's classes, and to trials and fun matches, she's 11 weeks and has never had a single vaccine. I'm waiting for her shot next week to enroll her in any of her own classes though, i know all the dogs in the places i take her currently, but i'm not mixing her with unknowns until she has a parvo shot. Thats for MY peace of mind though, i wouldn't have had any trouble putting her in classes if i wanted to, heck the reaction i got from one if the instructers when i said I'm waiting till she gets her Parvo shot because she's completely unvaccinated ATM was "so what??" Lol


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Vaccinating dogs isn't really common here and I've never heard of anyone's dog getting Parvo. Granted, farm dogs don't often leave the farm, but if it's so easily spread that it can track around on the bottom of someone's shoe, would that even matter? Farmer coming to town to get groceries/diesel/seed/the mail could spread it all over town, theoretically. And even in the trailers parks (dogs usually tied outside, mostly poor conditions) the dogs don't get it. So I don't really know what makes Parvo so common in some areas and not others, especially when people say that the cold weather doesn't kill the virus. It's not due to vaccination around here, that I know :/. I personally wouldn't be comfortable not vaccinating a puppy but I've known enough totally unvaccinated dogs that I know it's not automatic Parvo like it would be down South.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Why risk having a dog/puppy suffer through parvo or distemper, possibly lose the dog/puppy, when it can so easily be prevented? 

I absolutely vaccinate mine. More than some, less than others. Deciding what vaccinations to give was a long discussion with the vet and based on what they see coming in. Bus gets his DHPP, Rabies & lepto...lepto is yearly, DHPP & Rabies are every 3 years. So one year he gets rabies & lepto, then he'll get DHPP & lepto, 3rd year he gets just lepto.  I opt to do the lepto vaccine because there is a risk where Im at, my vets have seen cases, and we have all sorts of wild things that roam through the yard...rabbits (breed & nest in my yard), opossum, mice, skunks (Ive smelled, not seen, them), raccoons, squirrels, even deer. 

Its not without risk....but what in life is?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree, per the breeder's contract I would have had to vaccinate Lincoln anyway ... but even if there wasnt a clause in there saying I had to, I was fully intending to. I have seen puppies and dogs with parvo and distemper, even if they live through it, they can be affected for life, why put them through that? It just doesnt make sense to me.



> Vaccinating dogs isn't really common here and I've never heard of anyone's dog getting Parvo. Granted, farm dogs don't often leave the farm, but if it's so easily spread that it can track around on the bottom of someone's shoe, would that even matter? Farmer coming to town to get groceries/diesel/seed/the mail could spread it all over town, theoretically. And even in the trailers parks (dogs usually tied outside, mostly poor conditions) the dogs don't get it. So I don't really know what makes Parvo so common in some areas and not others, especially when people say that the cold weather doesn't kill the virus. It's not due to vaccination around here, that I know :/. I personally wouldn't be comfortable not vaccinating a puppy but I've known enough totally unvaccinated dogs that I know it's not automatic Parvo like it would be down South.


Uh ... what ??? 

FYI, there are also a lot of "farm" dogs here, and alot of them are LGD and coyotes are a big problem here, so you know what the farmers do? they have their farm vet vaccinate the pups/dogs when he comes out for the other animals. LGD arent cheap, and a good LGD isnt something a farmer wants to lose to something he can prevent with just a shot.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

What an important discussion...and I find the cavalier attitude of some a little disturbing. Ask the question of why "parvo" or "distemper" or "rabies" or any other of the killer diseases haven't been seen in such a long time. The answer, as much as some deny it, is vaccines. There was a huge push 10 years or more ago in the human community that vaccines were so awful...they were causing autism and any number of other afflictions. These accusations have been shown to have no merit....yet people want to believe high-profile hollywood types. The squeaky wheel gets the grease....but at great cost in come cases. What has been proven is that, in humans, measles is on the rise, and other childhood diseases are on the rise...and some children have died. Just like I know puppies have died because they weren't vaccinated because some people assured other people "some diseases haven't been seen" in a long time. Well...yes...because of vaccines. 

What dog people have to remember is that there are wild canids out there....wolves, coyotes, foxes....who carry the exact same diseases...and exposure can be as simple as coming into contact with urine of these species. It doesn't matter if you trust your "agility" group...there are infinite other dangers. I don't keep vaccinating my adult dogs...but I gosh darn do vaccinate my puppies. And parvo and distemper aren't the only dangers to a puppy. Diseases aren't "gone"...they are still out there...we may not see them because for a long time we simply vaccinated our puppies....and for a time a certain amount of "herd protection" kept it at bay...but when more and more people choose not to vaccinate puppies, that herd protection collapses. It is currently happening in humans. 

It is the hubris of humans when we quit vaccinating against small pox because we thought "we beat it." Same as polio...humans with their big brains think they can "beat" the little mindless viruses we thought we "defeated." Well...measles are coming back...because everybody is "afraid" of the vaccines....its only a matter of time when the big guns rear their ugly heads...same as with dogs...with puppy killers that high-profile people think are no longer relevant and thus don't want to us to vaccinate against. 

I just sort of find it amazing that people buy into the new age "vaccines are bad" campaign when the fact they don't want people to vaccinate because these diseases are no longer seen is DUE to the vaccines that were developed in the first place!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> What an important discussion...and I find the cavalier attitude of some a little disturbing. Ask the question of why "parvo" or "distemper" or "rabies" or any other of the killer diseases haven't been seen in such a long time. The answer, as much as some deny it, is vaccines. There was a huge push 10 years or more ago in the human community that vaccines were so awful...they were causing autism and any number of other afflictions. These accusations have been shown to have no merit....yet people want to believe high-profile hollywood types. The squeaky wheel gets the grease....but at great cost in come cases. What has been proven is that, in humans, measles is on the rise, and other childhood diseases are on the rise...and some children have died. Just like I know puppies have died because they weren't vaccinated because some people assured other people "some diseases haven't been seen" in a long time. Well...yes...because of vaccines.
> 
> What dog people have to remember is that there are wild canids out there....wolves, coyotes, foxes....who carry the exact same diseases...and exposure can be as simple as coming into contact with urine of these species. It doesn't matter if you trust your "agility" group...there are infinite other dangers. I don't keep vaccinating my adult dogs...but I gosh darn do vaccinate my puppies. And parvo and distemper aren't the only dangers to a puppy. Diseases aren't "gone"...they are still out there...we may not see them because for a long time we simply vaccinated our puppies....and for a time a certain amount of "herd protection" kept it at bay...but when more and more people choose not to vaccinate puppies, that herd protection collapses. It is currently happening in humans.
> 
> ...


This I agree with, we not only have coyotes here, we also have raccoons, skunks, possums, wild hogs ... etc. Our agility place requires copies of shot records, but even if they didnt, I would still vaccinate, for safety purposes.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

For my own dogs, when I am at work in the parvo ward treating 2-3 sometimes 5 dogs/puppies with parvo, you bet I am going to vaccinate my puppies for this. Now as adults not that strigent for the disease. One time it was a mother and 10 of her puppies that had it. That was a big mess, you basically were in the ward for your whole shift. Also, we do see Lepto where I work. If a dog's blood value is showing kidney/liver problem we will do a Lepto test. Last month, two yorkies (housepets) tested positive for the disease. A couple of years ago, a doberman tested negative but the Min Pin tested positive. Last I knew the owner was going to go get tested for the disease. The rental house had a huge mouse infestation. Again depending on where you live is what you should be worried about. Then throw in if you travel or if your dog's buddies travel to other regions. The dogs of Katrina are one of those traveling groups that brought diseases to other parts of the country. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21281213


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## lovemybullies (Jan 23, 2015)

I'd get vaccines, especially rabies, distemper, and parvo. Some vaccines can have a adverse effect, which is why some pet owners stray away. However the adverse effects rarely ever happen and can be countered with benadryl. I one has a Labrador Retriever that had a severe reaction to a shot. She immediately broke out in hives, then uncontrollably pooped and pee'd as she laid there. She was immediately given a benadryl shot to counter the adverse effects. The Labrador was 3 years old and was always up to date on shots, she just happened to develop an allergy to that shot... which can happen. For instance growing up I never had a problem with milk. But when I was 38 years old I developed an allergy to milk. Now I can't have anything dairy without getting sick, cramps, and hives. The same can happen to dogs with certain foods and shots. Although it's uncommon, it does rarely happen.

Just because of the adverse effect doesn't mean I've stoped any of my dogs from getting their shots. Sure I'll always worry during a vaccination from now on. But my adopted children's (my doggies) health far outweighs the risk of adverse effects... especially since the adverse effects can be reversed.

Some people will say "I don't get flu shots, so why would I let anyone vaccinate my dog(s). The answer is simple. Rabies, parvo, and distemper are totally different than the flu and much more severe. Your chances of overcoming the flu are 99%. The chances of your dog overcoming rabies, distemper and parvo are very slim. A dog has a 20% chance of overcoming distemper. Parvo will kill your dog in as little as three days. Rabies will effect the spinal cord and brain of your dog eventually causing death, and there is no treatment. However there is preventative care... vaccinations!!!

With those kind of statistics and odds stacked up against my adopted children... well you can bet I get their vaccines and keep them up to date.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Umm..not all adverse reactions are as simple as hives. My border collies puppy shots almost KILLED her, like hospitalized for several days, then after her Rabies shot she flipped from a happy loves everything puppy to an extremely aggressive puppy which took almost her entire life to fix. She was never vaccinated again and never will be, it would be a virtual death sentence. My mom's boss took his young adult dog for shots and he reacted so severely it killed him. I would never not vaccinate "at all", I do not condone that in any way. But to imply that reactions if they happen at all are merely mild inconveniences is flat out wrong. Yes i am VERY conservative about vaccines but..can you blame me? I will always vaccinate for Parvo..alway always always, I will vaccinate for Distemper if its been in the area in recent history. Everything else? I'll pass thanks. Because of my job I'm willing to go as far as a puppy series that is just Parvo/distemper. I have not with Sola because she is under a breeder contract in which she is only allowed one Parvo or Parvo/distemper shot between 10-14 weeks and thats it unless no titre, only then is a second allowed. No rabies preferably at all, or after 1 year or 6 months if absolutely necessary, no earlier though. I'm OK with that, if it wasn't for my job thats what I would choose anyway.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Miss Bugs said:


> then after her Rabies shot she flipped from a happy loves everything puppy to an extremely aggressive puppy which took almost her entire life to fix.


You've mentioned this in passing a few times, and I have to admit to serious skepticism about it as presented. What's the whole story there?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

parus said:


> You've mentioned this in passing a few times, and I have to admit to serious skepticism about it as presented. What's the whole story there?


She was a happy well socialized puppy(sport bred, ENS raised etc..) we walked her regularly, socialized her properly(my mom had been training and competing with dogs since she was a teen, so their was no lack of knowledge happening). She got her Rabies at 4 months and about 10 days later she turned into a different dog, nothing slow progressing, just one day happy confident, next day hurling herself at anyone and anything snarling, spitting and barking. I couldn't get her within 20 feet of a petstore without her flipping out, didn't need to be anyone there, just the possibility was enough. We went to private training lessons and started counter conditioning, i worked with her almost every day for YEARS, just sitting outside places and shoving food in her face every time she looked without reaction. She was 3 before she was capable of competition, that she was only ok when focased on the coarse, she was prevented from contact with anyone, everyone knew how aggressive she was and gave her space. After years upon years of training she got stable enough to earn her CGN..at 12 years.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Miss Bugs said:


> She was a happy well socialized puppy(sport bred, ENS raised etc..) we walked her regularly, socialized her properly(my mom had been training and competing with dogs since she was a teen, so their was no lack of knowledge happening)


Aren't vaccines administered during a time in a puppy's life when behavioral shifts usually happen anyways?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Miss Bugs said:


> She was a happy well socialized puppy(sport bred, ENS raised etc..) we walked her regularly, socialized her properly(my mom had been training and competing with dogs since she was a teen, so their was no lack of knowledge happening)


eta: never mind, clarified above, it wasn't


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

chimunga said:


> Aren't vaccines administered during a time in a puppy's life when behavioral shifts usually happen anyways?


Wait, are you saying that I can't conclude that the MMR vaccine gave my kid autism even though he was diagnosed with autism shortly after getting it?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I absolutely believe it was partly genetic, i believe it was a combo of the Rabies vaccine and genetic issues, remember she also reacted very severely to her other shots as well(proven and VET DIAGNOSED as vaccine induced). And yes it was a switch, nothing gradual about it.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Believe what you like, I know what my experience was, and mocking it sure as hell isn't going to change my mind


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Miss Bugs said:


> Believe what you like, I know what my experience was, and mocking it sure as hell isn't going to change my mind


We're not mocking. We're just curious. Honestly, I don't believe you, but I'm a skeptical person in general. I just think that anecdotes do not equal data.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

chimunga said:


> We're not mocking. We're just curious. Honestly, I don't believe you, but I'm a skeptical person in general. I just think that anecdotes do not equal data.


This. And while I'm not denying your struggles with this particular dog, your clarification includes the fact that it wasn't an immediate flip, and that it coincided with what is very commonly a fear period for dogs...given the grave legal and health importance of the rabies vaccination...well, I'd advise several grains of salt to a reader who finds this anecdote a possibly compelling reason to avoid vaccinating against rabies.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

PaddiB said:


> What an important discussion...and I find the cavalier attitude of some a little disturbing. Ask the question of why "parvo" or "distemper" or "rabies" or any other of the killer diseases haven't been seen in such a long time. The answer, as much as some deny it, is vaccines. There was a huge push 10 years or more ago in the human community that vaccines were so awful...they were causing autism and any number of other afflictions. These accusations have been shown to have no merit....yet people want to believe high-profile hollywood types. The squeaky wheel gets the grease....but at great cost in come cases. What has been proven is that, in humans, measles is on the rise, and other childhood diseases are on the rise...and some children have died. Just like I know puppies have died because they weren't vaccinated because some people assured other people "some diseases haven't been seen" in a long time. Well...yes...because of vaccines.
> 
> What dog people have to remember is that there are wild canids out there....wolves, coyotes, foxes....who carry the exact same diseases...and exposure can be as simple as coming into contact with urine of these species. It doesn't matter if you trust your "agility" group...there are infinite other dangers. I don't keep vaccinating my adult dogs...but I gosh darn do vaccinate my puppies. And parvo and distemper aren't the only dangers to a puppy. Diseases aren't "gone"...they are still out there...we may not see them because for a long time we simply vaccinated our puppies....and for a time a certain amount of "herd protection" kept it at bay...but when more and more people choose not to vaccinate puppies, that herd protection collapses. It is currently happening in humans.
> 
> ...


I think the majority of people against vaccines are more so for limited vaccination rather then completely no vaccination at all. That's what I've seen the most of when people talk about the dangers of over vaccination rather then completely no vaccines what so ever so idk why it seems like so many people want to make it out like people who don't like giving their dogs vaccines every year have never given their dogs vaccines at all. It's kind of been proven that it's unnecessary to give vaccines yearly. They've been shown to last from 5-7 years and possibly even longer. So puppy vaccines and then only, usually, rabies for life and maybe an update on another vaccine if antibodies are low. That's pretty much the recommended advice by people that are against over vaccination.... Anyone that does otherwise is doing it too often, plain and simple. They can choose to do so but there's no reason for it and no real benefit and yeah, it can potentially harm your dog. Straight up, real talk. 

This cavalier attitude about vaccines being nothing to worry about is kind of concerning. Like idk, children dying after being given a flu vaccine because of the vaccine... not the flu... no big deal. Bringing up the Polio vaccine like it was ever actually cured by that... like doctors didn't change up the way it was diagnosed and people that never had it to begin with stopped being diagnosed with it so numbers went down... like they weren't accidentally shooting people up with live vaccines because they couldn't kill it correctly and countries with the highest rates a vaccinations had the highest rates of Polio. True story. Or better yet, some polio vaccines caused new mutations... sounds familiar since idk... that only happens every year with the flu. 

What's funny is you brought up Polio... if anything it had to be that. I love it. Vaccines caused polio in more people than the actual virus itself did. LMAO... that's too funny.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

parus said:


> This. And while I'm not denying your struggles with this particular dog, I hope anyone listening to that story, now that you've added the details to it, sees that it wasn't a lightswitch flip, and that it coincided with what is very commonly a fear period for dogs. Given the grave legal and health importance of the rabies vaccination...well, I'd advise several grains of salt to a reader who finds this anecdote a possibly compelling reason to avoid vaccinating against rabies.


Yeah. That's one of my problems. People can be short-sighted and reactionary. And while I will fight for your right to tell your story, I think some people could take it the wrong way and use it as a reason/excuse not to vaccinate.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

That's a pretty terrible description of what happened with the polio vaccine.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Really then prove me wrong?


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

Puppy shots(Distemper and rabies)then rabies every 3 years and 1 more 3 year distemper. I never vaccinate for kennel cough or Lyme, looking at lepto. If any of my dogs aren't well they aren't vaccinated and can get an exemption from the rabies shot.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

Google Rabies Challenge. That has some good info.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Really then prove me wrong?


There are certain arguments that are so twisted and one-sided that arguing with them does more harm than good, because it implies there's something legitimate there to engage with. So no, I don't care to. Instead, I suggest you do some research and consider the matter more deeply.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

There are some things I'm not supportive of with dogs, but vaccinations isn't one of them. I believe all puppies and dogs should have their shots when the vets say so. You never know what could happen and it's sort of a "better safe than sorry" scenario. But you could also weigh the pros/cons and do some research as you did, also I would ask your vet too what s/he thinks.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> There are some things I'm not supportive of with dogs, but vaccinations isn't one of them. I believe all puppies and *dogs should have their shots when the vets say so*. You never know what could happen and it's sort of a "better safe than sorry" scenario. But you could also weigh the pros/cons and do some research as you did, also I would ask your vet too what s/he thinks.


Ah, but that's one of the issues. I read in a "Veterinary Economics" magazine that some vets were convincing their clients to give the core vaccines every 6 months to boost profits (it was presented in a tips article on how to boost revenue, then a letter writing storm about how unethical it was, etc.). Is this safe? Is it necessary? Would you do it if your vet said you should? If vaccines are perfectly safe, why not give them every month/3 months/6 months just to be make sure? If it's been proven that vaccines confer immunity for at least 5-7 years, then giving them every 1-3 years is just as unnecessary as giving them every 1/3/6 months. At what point do you blindly trust the vet?


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

parus said:


> There are certain arguments that are so twisted and one-sided that arguing with them does more harm than good, because it implies there's something legitimate there to engage with. So no, I don't care to. Instead, I suggest you do some research and consider the matter more deeply.


Cute. You should actually be writing the person with a PhD who I literally paraphrased all that info from and tell them to to do more research then. Cause obviously their research into the history of the Polio vaccine is incorrect and you would know that better since I'm sure you spent the same amount of time that they did researching it yourself instead of listening to whatever it is that your general practitioner spoon feeds you.


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## lovemybullies (Jan 23, 2015)

Miss Bugs said:


> But to imply that reactions if they happen at all are merely mild inconveniences is flat out wrong.


Perhaps my wording was not in-depth enough or taken the wrong way. In no way did I or would I imply that any reaction to a shot is merely a mild inconvenience. If anyone goes back to read my post and thinks the same as you about my post... then I apologise to the entire forum for not wording myself correctly. Nor did I say adverse effects were as simple as hives. I also stated my Labrador laid there and uncontrollably pooped and pee'd... which is a sure sign of the shot effecting the organs.

Anything wrong with any of my dogs or any dog I treat is NEVER thought of as mild inconveniences. And I apologise that you somehow deciphered this from my post discussing the importance of vaccinations.

Also as stated in my post my Yellow Labrador Lucy had an adverse effect. And it wasn't treated as a mild inconvenience. Actually the opposite. I panicked, and yes this big tough guy even cried cause I don't like any of my dogs suffering.

To this day I cringe when vaccinations are administered to my dogs, cause I've witnessed the rare possibility of adverse effects. But I also know the effect that could happen if I chose not to have my adopted children vaccinated... death!!!

Now I also realise there are certain cases in which vaccinations can't and shouldn't be administered. For instance in your case. And my Labrador never received that vaccination again either... But received all others. 

In no way am I quoting you to challenge you. I only wanted to make myself more understood cause I believe you took my post out of context. 

Everyone has their reasons for what they do and don't do for their adopted children... and what matters most is if those reasons are for the best interest of your pet(s) welfare and health.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Cute. You should actually be writing the person with a PhD who I literally paraphrased all that info from and tell them to to do more research then. Cause obviously their research into the history of the Polio vaccine is incorrect and you would know that better since I'm sure you spent the same amount of time that they did researching it yourself instead of listening to whatever it is that your general practitioner spoon feeds you.


I'm sure since you're the one that made the statement in the first place, you could easily provide the information to back it up.

Burden of proof, and all that. If you want someone to actually consider your arguments, you may want to present them with your sources and data that back it up and not just say "look it up yourself". Also, people with PhDs can totally be biased. They're still people.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Miss Bugs said:


> I have not with Sola because she is under a breeder contract in which she is only allowed one Parvo or Parvo/distemper shot between 10-14 weeks and thats it unless no titre, only then is a second allowed. No rabies preferably at all, or after 1 year or 6 months if absolutely necessary, no earlier though. I'm OK with that, if it wasn't for my job thats what I would choose anyway.


Is rabies required by law where you live? I am sorry but I would not have a breeder telling me when to vaccinate my dog for rabies if it went against what the law states. It did not happen too many times but I have had to quarantine puppies that supposedly bit a kid. Kids, puppies, sharp teeth, sharp claws, running, screaming = maybe a bite. If it got reported we had to follow the law. It sucked for the family and the puppy. 10 days in doggie jail. If where you live rabies are not required than I have no problem. I think it is up to the breeder to make sure the law gets followed no matter what your belief. I do not have a problem with those who do not want to vaccinate their dog with multiple vaccines on the same day and want to wait in between vaccines.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

gingerkid said:


> I'm sure since you're the one that made the statement in the first place, you could easily provide the information to back it up.
> 
> Burden of proof, and all that. If you want someone to actually consider your arguments, you may want to present them with your sources and data that back it up and not just say "look it up yourself". Also, people with PhDs can totally be biased. They're still people.


Anyone can be biased. Someone saying that vaccines are all great and everyone should be shooting their kids up with 10 vaccines at a time to save the world from disease are biased.... medical degree or not. 

Really, I made my statement plain and simple because I really didn't feel like getting all complicated about it.. like if you really care about the subject then read about it. But whatever... sources and all that. 

First fact: the diagnosis of Polio was changed right around the time the polio vaccine was released and made it seem like a greater decline in polio occurred then what it really was and second fact: the vaccine actually increased the incidence of polio. Doctor: Dr. Bernard G. Greenberg. Source: Gillings School of Global Public Health. Question? 

*"He testified before Congress that statistics had been used inappropriately to determine the effectiveness of the polio vaccine — and that the vaccine actually increased the incidence of polio (1962)."*

http://sph.unc.edu/dr-bernard-g-greenberg-a-visionary-leader/

No anti-vaccine propaganda or pseudoscience websites. Happy?


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Anyone can be biased. Someone saying that vaccines are all great and everyone should be shooting their kids up with 10 vaccines at a time to save the world from disease are biased.... medical degree or not.
> 
> Really, I made my statement plain and simple because I really didn't feel like getting all complicated about it.. like if you really care about the subject then read about it. But whatever... sources and all that.
> 
> ...


Actually, a precursory glance at the research shows that they're talking about the oral polio vaccine. Not the injection. 



> On rare occasions, if a population is seriously under-immunized, an excreted vaccine-virus can continue to circulate for an extended period of time. The longer it is allowed to survive, the more genetic changes it undergoes. In very rare instances, the vaccine-virus can genetically change into a form that can paralyse – this is what is known as a circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus (cVDPV).


http://www.who.int/features/qa/64/en/


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Anyone can be biased. Someone saying that vaccines are all great and everyone should be shooting their kids up with 10 vaccines at a time to save the world from disease are biased.... medical degree or not.
> 
> Really, I made my statement plain and simple because I really didn't feel like getting all complicated about it.. like if you really care about the subject then read about it. But whatever... sources and all that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the source, but I actually do still have questions. I actually can't find anything on there about polio except that he testified about it. It doesn't say anything about the incidence of polio and whatnot.

Anyway, I did look into it further and happened to find this: 
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_...rg-gambit-and-the-natural-decline-gambit.html



> Greenberg did describe how the methods for calculating incidents of polio had changed from 1955 to 1959. But at no point did he, nor anyone else on the panel, ascribe this to malicious intent by a 'medical establishment.' Indeed, he explicitly commented that the post-1959 were "improved" methods of diagnosis" (Encyclopedia of Common Diseases, J.I. Rodale, 1962:97)


The thing is, while polio diagnoses decreased, it is not solely because cases of poliomyelitus were being renamed as something else, but because diagnostics were improving and diseases that were previously misdiagnosed as poliomyelitus were able to be correctly identified as what they actually were - i.e. not polio. To be honest, I don't see why it is such a big controversy that diseases caused by other viruses were reclassified and removed from the definition of polio...

I will not argue that statistics can be easily manipulated to say whatever a savvy statistician wants them to say... but that goes for both sides.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

If you want to pay me 17 euros for my to get this:


Schrijver:	Offit, Paul A
Titel:	The Cutter Incident - How America's First Polio Vaccine Led to the Growing Vaccine Crisis - How America's First Polio Vaccine Led to the Growing Vaccine Crisis [ isbn 9780300126051 ]
ISBN:	9780300126051
Taal:	Engels
Uitgever:	Yale University Press
Bijzonderheden:	2007 256pp
Categorie:	Geneeskunde Algemeen
Prijs:	€ 17,95 (exclusief evt. verzendkosten)

Which talks about some girl and killing monkeys with vaccines and how doctors or scientist or something didn't care and gave it to people anyways and people ended up with the polio virus from active viruses in the vaccines then by all means be my guest. If not, I'm done. 

Oh here, I found something: http://collections.nlm.nih.gov/catalog/nlm:nlmuid-101263944-vid

"Dr. Shannon discusses in great detail the crisis caused by batches of contaminated polio vaccine and how it was resolved."

That's the guy that got the contaminated vaccines recalled... after they infected a bunch of people with polio. Because the viruses weren't killed correctly... which I was, again, right about. Issues resolved or do I need to keep doing this?

ETA: If there's any confusion... those are the injection vaccines not the other kind that infected people. They switched over to oral after that I believe and then those infected people and then they switched over to the dead, correctly killed (or inactivated would be the correct term) that apparently don't infect people with the disease... in the US. Too bad for the people in Africa in 2007 and the people in India in 2013 that got infected with polio from the oral vaccine. 

I just thought it was funny that polio was being used to support vaccines... like of any vaccine that wouldn't be one I would choose to make a good case for vaccines. Really people, I write enough research papers... I don't need to be doing this on my free time.


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## moluno (Apr 29, 2009)

sassafras said:


> I wonder why? ;-)


No worries, I totally get that lol. It's just a reason why I'm comfortable not continuing vaccinations with my adults, parvo isn't exactly lurking around every corner here... but yes I'd be more concerned if it was more prevalent in the area. 
I just don't feel like I'm leaving my dogs "at risk" of contracting something, basically. Nor do I believe they're going to be the cause of some disease outbreak. 


I do just legitimately have this worry that vaccinating them will cause _something_ bad to happen. They're so healthy and doing well and I just don't want to introduce anything that could change that. Yep, completely irrational to some but that's how I'm rolling.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

gingerkid said:


> Thanks for the source, but I actually do still have questions. I actually can't find anything on there about polio except that he testified about it. It doesn't say anything about the incidence of polio and whatnot.
> 
> Anyway, I did look into it further and happened to find this:
> http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_...rg-gambit-and-the-natural-decline-gambit.html
> ...



Absolutely correct. No disagreeing with you there. They weren't able to actually do anything but diagnose a person based on symptoms up until that point and then they found out that there were other viruses that caused similar symptoms. But that doesn't really change the fact that was an influence on the decrease in Polio. After that, cases of Polio decreased... not just, if at all... at that point, because of vaccines but because less people were being wrongly diagnosed.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks for the resource. I can get it through my school's library.



xoxluvablexox said:


> I just thought it was funny that polio was being used to support vaccines... like of any vaccine that wouldn't be one I would choose to make a good case for vaccines. Really people, I write enough research papers... I don't need to be doing this on my free time.


That's your perogative, but honestly, I'd expect someone who writes academic research papers to understand why other people (who also write research papers...) won't just take what you say at face value.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I know, I'm being lazy. Fighting crowds at grocery stores before a huge winter storm hits zapped all my energy today... seriously... people were being crazy. It's like everyone goes into panic mode or something.... it's Jersey, like we've never seen snow or something. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernice_Eddy#cite_ref-5

That's the Wikipedia article that mentioned Bernice Eddy who is the nurse that injected the monkeys with the vaccine. Obviously not really the best source but it'll give you an idea of what the book is supposed to be about. There was another website I got her name off of and I lost it. 

Here's a newspaper article.... this is actually really sickening....

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...wcrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TJgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2043,2589024

...this doctor is a complete jerk. From what I read it seems he was aware that there were issues with the vaccine but he was so passionate about it being released to the public that he actually gave it to his grandchildren and his grandson died. What's even more sickening is at the end of the article it says they didn't believe the vaccine was the cause even though it's the same vaccine that killed (one things I read said they dropped to the floor of the cage... maybe killed is an assumption on my part.... but dropping to the floor of the cage doesn't sound promising lol) monkeys in a lab when it was being tested..... 

And here, instead of you having to worry about getting that through your school's library... I just found this and it seems to pretty much some it up (I really just scanned the first paragraph... again I'm being lazy... but it looks to be informative.) 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Yes, there have been some problems with vaccines when they were first released. And yes, many vets have increased their incomes by pushing annual vaccinations, when every three years would be just as effective. Yes, it may be safe to stop vaccinating dogs in old age.
But refusing to get your dog vaccinated endangers everyone else's dogs, as well as wildlife. Distemper threatens several endangered species (pygmy foxes, lions, tigers, otters, sea lions, the black footed ferret . . . not to mention everyday backyard critters like raccoons and foxes. 

DO IT. Follow mainstream guidelines. Especially important for puppies and young dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Just a couple notes about assuming vaccines cause issues.

When Hiro died of neurological issues he had just been vaccinated. We and the vets sort of assumed vaccine reaction because we could find no other reason. It wasn't until 2 years after his death that we got a name for the disease that killed him. Very rare, had not been officially diagnosed in the breed but a couple times. Neuroaxonal dystrophy. Had nothing to do with the lepto vaccine. That is not confirmed but sending his pedigree to the breed health club doing the NAD surveys and sending video of his symptoms to researchers matched up. His pedigree doubled up on two very well known NAD carrying lines. Moral being that I am wary of prescribing issues to vaccines right off the bat. Could be something else lurking in there. 

Anecdotes don't make data but 2 other stories.

My childhood dog #1 got parvo. He nearly died. I don't remember it but have heard the stories. He was in the emergency vet for a long time and my dad went to go have him put to sleep. He hadn't moved at all in days but when he got there Shack wagged his tail the first time and got up. He barely barely pulled through.

I also have been through (as a kid) rabies shots because my puppy who had not had a rabies vaccine passed away with neurological issues. We did not think it was rabies but me and my friends and family all had to get the shots because the lab botched the testing. Actually I believe what happened was the vet sent the sample to the wrong lab. I can't recall the whole story but they did send our deceased dog for a rabies test and somehow it was botched and we all had to get rabies shots. It was horrible. 

In the US at least it is the law to have rabies shots given every so many years. Here it's 3 years. If your dog bites someone you could be in some trouble.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

One of my dogs was bitten by a rabid fox three days after he had his rabies booster. The animal control people checked up on it to make sure he was up to date on his shots; otherwise he would have been taken away from me and quarantined (and euthanized of course if he'd started showing symptoms). Rabies is FATAL. Whatever you do with other vaccines, please, please keep your dog up to date on the rabies vaccine.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shep said:


> One of my dogs was bitten by a rabid fox three days after he had his rabies booster. The animal control people checked up on it to make sure he was up to date on his shots; otherwise he would have been taken away from me and quarantined (and euthanized of course if he'd started showing symptoms). Rabies is FATAL. Whatever you do with other vaccines, please, please keep your dog up to date on the rabies vaccine.


Yeah, not vaccinating ... thats just ludicrous to me. I dont even think a farmer or a rancher would risk a dog getting rabies.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You'd be surprised. . .my uncle (a farmer) has never allowed any of the farm dogs to be vaccinated, because he doesn't believe in spending money on a dog. My aunt insists on female dogs being spayed because she won't deal with puppies (or let him "deal with" puppies :/), so females do get one rabies shot at the time of spay because the vet requires it. Other than that, no cat or dog on that property ever gets vaccinated. And he's not the only one I know like that. I don't know why the entire family hasn't died of rabies because they're awfully casual with the bodies of "rabid" animals they shoot too.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

luv mi pets said:


> Is rabies required by law where you live? I am sorry but I would not have a breeder telling me when to vaccinate my dog for rabies if it went against what the law states. It did not happen too many times but I have had to quarantine puppies that supposedly bit a kid. Kids, puppies, sharp teeth, sharp claws, running, screaming = maybe a bite. If it got reported we had to follow the law. It sucked for the family and the puppy. 10 days in doggie jail. If where you live rabies are not required than I have no problem. I think it is up to the breeder to make sure the law gets followed no matter what your belief. I do not have a problem with those who do not want to vaccinate their dog with multiple vaccines on the same day and want to wait in between vaccines.


the breeder doesn't require anything against the law, she simply will not sell to area's with certain Rabies requirements. Rabies is NOT required by law most places in Canada..not sure if its required anywhere in Canada actually. if a potential buyer lives in an area with Rabies vaccine requirements they must seek special permission to delay vaccination until 6 months, if they cannot get permission, they will not be approved for a puppy.(this IS possible, one of the puppies went to Boston, the buyer sought special permission through their state Veterinarian and Customs to cross the border with the puppy unvaccinated and delay vaccination until 6 months of age.)


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> You'd be surprised. . .my uncle (a farmer) has never allowed any of the farm dogs to be vaccinated, because he doesn't believe in spending money on a dog. My aunt insists on female dogs being spayed because she won't deal with puppies (or let him "deal with" puppies :/), so females do get one rabies shot at the time of spay because the vet requires it. Other than that, no cat or dog on that property ever gets vaccinated. And he's not the only one I know like that. I don't know why the entire family hasn't died of rabies because they're awfully casual with the bodies of "rabid" animals they shoot too.


Rabies vaccination is required by most states, so I dont even think the most cheapskate "farmer" could get away with not vaccinating for rabies at least.

Also, I wonder just how many farmers here are like that, or if its just your paranoia seeing them that way.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

For me, puppy shots are a must. I do, however, insist on spacing them out over multiple visits and I never, ever give rabies with any other vaccinations the same day. After puppy shots, we titer test and give rabies every 3 years as it is state required. We also get bordatella only because their daycare requires it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Rabies vaccination is required by most states, so I dont even think the most cheapskate "farmer" could get away with not vaccinating for rabies at least.
> 
> Also, I wonder just how many farmers here are like that, or if its just your paranoia seeing them that way.


LOL. I'll give you cynicism. Maybe pessimism. Not paranoia exactly. 

But anyway, no, there is no state law requiring rabies vaccination in South Dakota. Just about every town has an ordinance requiring it but if you live outside town limits, nothing.


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## MelTruffles (Jan 27, 2015)

I just want to start off with this. I have a double B.S. in Biochemistry and Genetics. In these two disciplines we learned about infectious diseases amongst animals and humans.

There is a lot of hype going on these days that vaccinating your animal or yourself is dangerous and that it is kind of just big pharma play to get money, but it isn't true at the slightest. Many diseases they were wiping the population were eradicated through vaccinations. The series of puppy shots that your vet gives your puppy is important to make antibodies against these very dangerous diseases. Through a series of 3, the immune system is strong and prepared to fight. Without these vaccinations, you're leaving your dog at high risk of developing these diseases because their immune system cannot detect/fight against them. 

What has been protecting your dog is the fact that all the surrounding dogs in your area or in places you visit are vaccinated. Vaccinations keeps the disease from spreading, but if your dog gets around a squirrel or animal that could be a carrier, your dog will definitely develop the disease.

Why take the risk? Simply because reactions to vaccines are very very rare, but they do happen. They are almost completely safe. (No vaccines do not cause autism in you or your pet.  )

With that said, my family dog was not vaccinated for years as I was growing up, however, I made the decision to vaccinate my dog regularly and properly because I want him to social with other people and other dogs. 

I definitely commend you though. You obviously care a lot about your fur babies, but please don't believe everything on the internet. The same people against vaccinations are the same people who don't believe HIV/AIDS is real.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Mel&Truffles said:


> I just want to start off with this. I have a double B.S. in Biochemistry and Genetics. In these two disciplines we learned about infectious diseases amongst animals and humans.
> 
> There is a lot of hype going on these days that vaccinating your animal or yourself is dangerous and that it is kind of just big pharma play to get money, but it isn't true at the slightest. Many diseases they were wiping the population were eradicated through vaccinations. The series of puppy shots that your vet gives your puppy is important to make antibodies against these very dangerous diseases. Through a series of 3, the immune system is strong and prepared to fight. Without these vaccinations, you're leaving your dog at high risk of developing these diseases because their immune system cannot detect/fight against them.
> 
> ...


*drops the mic*


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah, the whole "well, no one vaccinates in my area, so it must mean its not needed!" argument is IMO rather silly.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

luv mi pets said:


> Is rabies required by law where you live? I am sorry but I would not have a breeder telling me when to vaccinate my dog for rabies if it went against what the law states. It did not happen too many times but I have had to quarantine puppies that supposedly bit a kid. Kids, puppies, sharp teeth, sharp claws, running, screaming = maybe a bite. If it got reported we had to follow the law. It sucked for the family and the puppy. 10 days in doggie jail. If where you live rabies are not required than I have no problem. I think it is up to the breeder to make sure the law gets followed no matter what your belief. I do not have a problem with those who do not want to vaccinate their dog with multiple vaccines on the same day and want to wait in between vaccines.


Just to clarify this for anyone who might be lurking...

Rabies vaccine is required by law in certain parts of Ontario. There are also cities in other provinces with by-laws requiring cats and dogs be up-to-date on their rabies vaccines.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> Just to clarify this for anyone who might be lurking...
> 
> Rabies vaccine is NOT required by law anywhere in Canada.


I dont know if its required in all the united states, either. I know it is in CO, NM, and FL, where I have visited for dog shows as well as my home state, TX. Maybe others can clarify, but I wouldnt know about any of the other states ... but her, it is required and it is enforced.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I dont know if its required in all the united states, either. I know it is in CO, NM, and FL, where I have visited for dog shows as well as my home state, TX. Maybe others can clarify, but I wouldnt know about any of the other states ... but her, it is required and it is enforced.


Here is a list of rabies-vaccine related laws, by state. It is a couple years out of date (July 2012); laws don't usually change very quickly but anyone in any doubt about whether there is a rabies vaccine required by law in their state of muniscipality (county) should check with the local authorities.

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws

Also, oops, I was totally misinformed.. while looking for the above site, I also found this: http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/program/pubhealth/rabies/qa/rabies_pets.html


> Is it important to vaccinate my pet (cat, dog, and ferret)?
> 
> It is a legal requirement under the Health Protection and Promotion Act to have dogs and cats over three months old vaccinated for rabies in all municipalities in the geographic region of Southern Ontario.


And found that there are several cities in Manitoba that have by-laws requiring rabies, including Winnipeg and Brandon, as well as some municipalities in New Brunswick.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> Here is a list of rabies-vaccine related laws, by state. It is a couple years out of date (July 2012); laws don't usually change very quickly but anyone in any doubt about whether there is a rabies vaccine required by law in their state of muniscipality (county) should check with the local authorities.
> 
> http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws
> 
> ...


Thanks!  Now hopefully everyone can get informed LOL.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Thanks!  Now hopefully everyone can get informed LOL.


yes agreed! 

Unless you and your pet live in a bubble, exposure to various diseases is possible. I feel that vaccines help me create a better bubble.

Plus, no rabies vaccine is okay till your pet is involved in a bite. I would rather do a 10 day home quarantine than have my animal tested for rabies. The test for rabies is not one I want to think my animal had to go through because I did not vaccinate the dog or cat. I am talking about the test and not a hospital/shelter based quarantine of a 10 day period.

I know many do not vaccinate because the mercury content in vaccines. Or called thimerosal. Most vaccines do not even have this in there anymore but the same anti vaccine group uses that as an excuse not to vaccinate.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

*doesn't get vaccinated, because afraid of thimerosol*

*still eats fish*

:doh:


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I know I do not get my dogs vaccinated for Rabies unless I am going across the border into the United States. When I do get them done you get one shot, get another a year later, then you are good for three years. I have never been asked for my papers saying whether they have had the Rabies shot or not but would not try and cross without it.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

given the recent measles break out and the now-intense search for an ebola vaccination I don't see how anyone with a conscience can advocate non-vaccination. You need to keep a critical mass vaccinated to avoid epidemic spread. If so many people hadn't participated in dog vaccination programs, the dog population would have crashed due to parvo and distemper. When you refuse to vaccinate, you erode the barriers to epidemic spread, and increase vulnerability of all pups. You also make wildlife vulnerable. 
Sure . . . reduce frequency of vaccination in accord with evidence (statistical, not anecdotal) and space out vaccinations if you're worried about too many vaccinations at once. 
But keep on vaccinating as required or recommended.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> given the recent measles break out and the now-intense search for an ebola vaccination I don't see how anyone with a conscience can advocate non-vaccination. You need to keep a critical mass vaccinated to avoid epidemic spread. If so many people hadn't participated in dog vaccination programs, the dog population would have crashed due to parvo and distemper. When you refuse to vaccinate, you erode the barriers to epidemic spread, and increase vulnerability of all pups. You also make wildlife vulnerable.
> Sure . . . reduce frequency of vaccination in accord with evidence (statistical, not anecdotal) and space out vaccinations if you're worried about too many vaccinations at once.
> But keep on vaccinating as required or recommended.


I wish it was illegal for parents to not vaccinate their kids, I really do. I dont want any little germ factories walking around :/


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## kpatterson (Jan 23, 2015)

Vaccines, hand-washing/sterile technique, and general anesthesia are, as far as I'm concerned, the three most important medical discoveries in history. Together they have saved countless millions of lives. I find it preposterous not to get vaccinated and I think parents are incredibly irresponsible if they refuse to vaccinate their children and this extends to pets as well. 

To quote Quackwatch:



> The capacity of the immune system to respond to antigens is vast and far greater than most people realize. Experts estimate that humans can generate about 10 billion different antibodies and that, due to exposures to germs and other foreign material, people make between 1 million and 100 million different antibodies during our lifetime. The vaccine schedule produces a total of about 30 antibodies. It is also estimated that (a) each infant has the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10,000 vaccines at any one time and (b) if the 11 routinely recommended vaccines were administered together, the immune system would need to use only about 0.1% of its capacity to process them.


http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/immu/too_many.html



luv mi pets said:


> I know many do not vaccinate because the mercury content in vaccines. Or called thimerosal. Most vaccines do not even have this in there anymore but the same anti vaccine group uses that as an excuse not to vaccinate.


They don't know the difference between methylmercury and ethylmercury and conflate the two. 

The CDC explains the difference here:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_faqs.html


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

kpatterson said:


> Vaccines, hand-washing/sterile technique, and general anesthesia are, as far as I'm concerned, the three most important medical discoveries in history. Together they have saved countless millions of lives. I find it preposterous not to get vaccinated and I think parents are incredibly irresponsible if they refuse to vaccinate their children and this extends to pets as well.
> 
> To quote Quackwatch:
> 
> ...


I totally agree, for kids and pets.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Passions on this subject are obviously at a premium. It is actually good to have such diverse opinions, because hopefully is spurs people to keep researching...but with an open mind....not just finding research that supports one opinion. This is also a subject with many layers, and those layers get mushed together, instead of truly hearing...such as puppy vaccinations versus continuing to vaccinate adult dogs. These are very different subjects. After five pages of opinions, I couldn't remember the original question....which I'll post below:

<<I would like to know peoples thoughts on vaccinations. When I was in high school and we got our first "family dog", he was taken for his set of three puppy vaccinations and then yearly for a few years after. When I moved and got my own dog, Dally, I never did get her any puppy shots. I do want to take her in for a rabies shot, but she has never had any sort of vaccinations. I had done some research about them and decided not to give them. From what I found, after about 6 months of not being vaccinated, the immune system is very strong. (If thats worded correctly lol). I have never had any problems with her, but now that we will be getting into Agility, are there any shots that she should be getting besides rabies? I don't pump myself with unnecessary "medications" and never get the flu shot because of whats in it, so I felt I should do the same for my dogs. Reba is 9 weeks old, and im debating getting her shots. I will raise her the same as Dally and keep her in a very controlled environment while she is very young. What are your thoughts on this?? lol I'm trying to weigh the options.>>

First of all...that "three shots" thing for puppies...that what 90% of all vets tell you to do with a puppy, right? Does anybody know why "three series" of shots? It is not because it takes three shots to protect the puppies (which is what I thought for a long time)....it is because they are hedging their bets as to when the puppy's immune system is ripe to respond to the vaccine in order to develop the antibodies. Too early, and the vaccine is worthless, because they are supported by mom's milk. Too late, and the pup is at risk. So...that is why three vaccines...covering the spread of when the pup's immune system can "grab" onto what the vaccine is designed to do. The thing to keep in mind....which is what vets don't always know...what anti-bodies does the bitch have? Was SHE ever vaccinated? If mom was never vaccinated....a puppy getting vaccinated at 6 weeks could be a good thing...if mom was vaccinated...it depends on the life she has lived whether or not her immune system was supported in any good way to know if her serum levels were strong enough to support puppies...nobody knows without comprehensive testing....thus...this is why everybody accepts the notion that puppies need 3 vaccinations several weeks apart...it is covering the spread. In actuality...puppies only need one series of vaccinations to protect them...except that unless you know WHEN to do it, it would be futile. Hundreds of thousands of puppies have been vaccinated three times over many decades...still are...mostly, it is not a problem....but with this "new age" scare of vaccines, people want to blame everything on the vaccines and nothing else....and I suspect there are bigger and better "suspects" out there. 

So Juliet, the original poster, never vaccinated her dog Dally, and she has read that after six months, the immune system is strong enough to withstand any sort of nasties, and because of her good luck, she has a 9 week old pup, and is asking the question about vaccines. I get it...Dally never had an issue...so it makes sense vaccines really aren't required, right? I submit that Juliet has had the luxury of "herd" protection" and the LUCK of Dally, as a pup, not coming into contact with a fatal puppy disease. But the more people who think this way...less and less puppies will get vaccinated, and the more at risk puppies will become. Nobody thinks anything "bad" will happen to them or their dog until it actually happens. One good example is what some people think of as "urban legend" or a "statistically" rare event as to brush it aside such as is the case with collars on dogs causing deaths. Over my decades in dogs...I've read about a smattering of horrific events regarding dogs wearing collars when playing together, and jaws getting caught/locked and dogs being severely injured or dying...I was in dogs for 20 years and never paid much mind, until it actually happened to me...luckily I was present when it happened and was able to release the dogs. Well...it also happens with puppies dying from diseases because they weren't vaccinated, because people believed the 'vaccination bad' hype, or because they simply came from an environment where nobody bothered. 

It is true that a six month old puppy might have a strong enough immune system to stave off the adnovirus/hepatitis disease, but one month earlier, that same puppy can die of that disease...and worse...even if your unvaccinated dog is lucky enough to be old enough to survive if they come in contact...they then become a carrier, through their urine, putting countless others who think the same way as you who may have puppies too young to withstand the disease. Thus...the collapse of "herd protection." 

Distemper and parvo are not the only puppy killers out there, as some would like people to believe. 

I don't vaccinate my adult dogs, if they have received at least a 4 way puppy vaccine. But as I said in the beginning...puppies and dogs...two very different situations. Important to make the distinction. Rabies....well....the law is involved....and until laws are changed, vaccinate or not at your own risk of legal issues.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I dont know about anyone else, but personally, I would never let a puppy go unvaccinated, because here there is a lot of (also unvaccinated) wildlife running around, and sometimes they get into the yard, and whatever, I want my dogs protected against things like distemper just in case they run into one of these critters.

But thats just me and my personal preference ... and I will admit to being a bit of a helicopter parent LOL


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## lzrddr (Feb 3, 2015)

just for those of you who are not familiar with Polio, what a horrible scourge it was, and the impact vaccination had upon it throughout the world:

http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Historyofpolio.aspx


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Well written post by PaddiB which I wholly agree with. When I got Kris at 11 weeks, she had no shots so she had one right away and then a second one at almost 16 weeks. I did not give her a third but she had a booster at a year from her first shot. My puppies always get the three puppy shots and a booster a year later then no more shots. I do not get the Rabies shots as it is not compulsory like in some places.

I would like to know how she determined her dog had a strong enough immune system?


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

moluno said:


> I would absolutely do puppy shots. Have I ever seen or even heard of a dog having distemper? No, I haven't - and that's because of vaccines. But beyond the puppy series, everyone just has to find what they're comfortable with. My 6 and 9 year old dogs have not been vaccinated since they were 1 year old, and I don't plan on vaccinating them again unless they need it for something. I'm a believer that their immunity to these diseases lasts longer than what the vaccine manufacturers are able to claim.
> 
> I get that it may be "risky" but it can't be said that there is no risk associated with vaccines, either.
> 
> I think it also depends on the incidence of disease in your area.


Yep, this with Jackson as well. He's had rabies 3x now as per the law. I don't mess with that. In certain states, if you are one day over a rabies shot and your dog bites someone your dog will be quarantined in the state shelter. That's not something I ever want for my dogs. 

Jackson is 6yrs old and hasn't been vaccinated for DHPP since he was 1. I just don't think he's going to be any more protected getting them re-boostered year after year. I've debated on giving him maybe one more parvo/distemper just for... good measure, or peace of mind, whatever, and because I don't think one more vaccine is going to HARM him either, because likely once he's over like 8/9 years old, I won't want to give him anymore. I do believe he had a terrible reaction to lepto as a puppy, and the vet was certain of it as well, and yorkies/small dogs ARE very prone to having issues with the vaccine. It was scary (vomiting, loss control of back legs, shaking, etc).

But I truly believe the initial vaccines and then that booster at 1 year are very important and would _never _skip them. I find it's hard to be someone in the middle of both arguments... people may think you are anti-vax when that's not the case at all. I AM a "minimalist" when it comes to that stuff and don't believe yearly vaccines are necessary or even every 3 years honestly. 

Vaccines ARE good and necessary as a whole but NOT every year. It's just ridiculous IMO that any vet could still vaccinating year after year, for these shots which are mostly proven to be lasting 7+ years, more likely the lifetime of the dog.

AAHA protocol is currently every 3 years. However some hospitals are very slowly changing to every 5 years now. Any vet not following these would not be touching my dog.


I likely won't even get titers because I think they're a waste of money. A low titer doesn't necessarily mean lack of immunity nor does a high titer mean full protection. I believe titers are, technically speaking, supposed to be done right after a vaccine is given. Some dogs could literally GET the distempter vaccine, for example, and then have a titer done and show 'low titers'. So then obviously that dog just is naturally inclined to that number. If that makes sense and I'm remembering correctly.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Miss Bugs said:


> I do Parvo, Distemper if there was any cases locally in recent history and nothing else except Rabies if I'm traveling. I do NOT do the puppy series, I do ONE parvo or parvo/distemper between 12-16 weeks and that's it, ever. Rabies i prefer to wait till a minimum of 6 months old. You shouldn't run into any training club issues with limited vaccines, Saskatchewan training clubs tend to be extremely limited vaccine friendly, I've been competing and training for years with extremely minimally vaccinated dogs and i have never run into even the slightest hint of a problem, your probably more likely to run into conflict FOR vaccinating a lot lol. Don't bother with Bordatella, its next to useless and the virus is not that dangerous.


I've never been asked for any vaccine papers or history in any of our agility classes nor has our mobile groomer ever asked. lol. And one of my agility instructors is a well respected vet and trainer.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I've never been asked for any vaccine papers or history in any of our agility classes nor has our mobile groomer ever asked. lol. And one of my agility instructors is a well respected vet and trainer.


Same here, I've never been asked for vaccination papers, and we've done multiple classes with different organizations.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I've never been asked for any vaccine papers or history in any of our agility classes nor has our mobile groomer ever asked. lol. And one of my agility instructors is a well respected vet and trainer.


Really? I carry Watson's proof of vaccination in my car, because pretty much everything we try to do dog-related asks for them. Any groomer, any training class, all the day cares.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

chimunga said:


> Really? I carry Watson's proof of vaccination in my car, because pretty much everything we try to do dog-related asks for them. Any groomer, any training class, all the day cares.


Same here. I always have a copy with me because everywhere we've gone (two different groomers, three different boarding/day care places, all of our classes, the private dog parks...) has required proof of DHPP, Rabies, and Bordatella.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I presume it's a regional thing.

We've been to 3 different training facilities and never been asked to show anything.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I did have to stop at the Vet and get a Bordatella shot for Kris when I had to board her at the Doggy Daycare but it was just the nasal one. I would never get it otherwise.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

chimunga said:


> Really? I carry Watson's proof of vaccination in my car, because pretty much everything we try to do dog-related asks for them. Any groomer, any training class, all the day cares.


Most daycares around here would, but Jackson doesn't do boarding/daycare so it's never been an issue with us personally. When we go camping at RV parks, they tell you they require the dogs vaccine info but I don't believe they've ever actually asked. We do bring it just in case. I took my moms new puppy to a public grooming shop (not a mobile groomer) and they didn't ask, either, but she was also a young puppy, so I dunno.... our dog parks don't ask either.

Jackson did get bordatella before his last dental cleaning because of a misunderstanding but I won't be getting that for him anymore. 3x he's gotten the nasal bordatella and twice he had mild symptoms of a cold... coughing/runny nose/etc, so annoying. One time he got kennel cough anyway while he was supposedly 'protected'. So I definitely won't be getting that anymore or let anyone talk me into that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My uncle's dog just went through parvo and nearly died.  She was a shelter puppy and started showing symptoms the day after they adopted her.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

From what I've talked to with the agility people they need vet records and shot records for liability reasons. I had to provide one for each of my dogs when I started classes there. I do not have to update them later on but to get into that first class you definitely need them. At the boarding place and the daycare you also need full vaccination history before you will be admitted. And to go to the dog park you need to have your rabies tag on your dog.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> From what I've talked to with the agility people they need vet records and shot records for liability reasons. I had to provide one for each of my dogs when I started classes there. I do not have to update them later on but to get into that first class you definitely need them. At the boarding place and the daycare you also need full vaccination history before you will be admitted. And to go to the dog park you need to have your rabies tag on your dog.


That would make sense to me. No idea why none of mine have ever asked. I've been to 3 different agility instructors lol. Nobody really monitors our dog park either. There are park rangers and stuff but nobody asks to see anything when you enter the state park with your dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

One of the places I've gone to for training didn't even require me to fill anything out or sign anything. They asked for my and Luna's name and info when I registered over the phone and that was it. Another one I had to fill out a form about Luna (where she is from, what my goals were with her, etc), which may have included a box saying she was up to date with shots, but I don't specifically remember. They never asked to see anything. The 3rd I filled out a very basic 'name, age, breed' type form and signed a liability waiver, still not asked to show anything.

We're supposed to have our city license (maybe rabies as well?) to use the city dog parks, but I've never seen anyone who would even be a person to ask for them, let alone been asked to show them.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Even the agility place I go to requires proof of vaccinations and requires at least distemper and kennel cough, even just for agility classes.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Bumping this thread up... I'm going to be in a situation soon where I believe I may have to board my dog for a few days. They, of course, require a bordatella vaccination on record. I have mixed feelings about this... I'm not sure I'll actually have a choice when it comes down to it as all of the local facilities require it. Has anyone had experience with a facility waiving the bordatella vaccination requirement? Also, any other experiences anyone would like to share regarding the vaccine itself and side effects would be most welcome. Other than the puppy series, historically I have never really done regular vaccinations and I'm not sure I want to start now.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

TGKvr said:


> Bumping this thread up... I'm going to be in a situation soon where I believe I may have to board my dog for a few days. They, of course, require a bordatella vaccination on record. I have mixed feelings about this... I'm not sure I'll actually have a choice when it comes down to it as all of the local facilities require it. Has anyone had experience with a facility waiving the bordatella vaccination requirement? Also, any other experiences anyone would like to share regarding the vaccine itself and side effects would be most welcome. Other than the puppy series, historically I have never really done regular vaccinations and I'm not sure I want to start now.


When I ran a kennel, I would waive Bordatella vaccination. I had long discussions with my vet about it. She said she didn't do her dogs, and had a hard time recommending the vaccine to clients. Problem is the vaccination doesn't cover all strains, and it often isn't good for a full year. So a dog that's 9 months past its last inoculation (according to this vet) was pretty much like not inoculated. So if you are serious about that precaution, you should require treatment more frequently than the once a year most kennels require. Also, Bordatella is MUCH MUCH MUCH less serious than parvo, distemper or rabies. Sometimes it's just a little dry cough that lasts a day or two. I would never waive requirements for parvo and distemper . . . though the three year shot is fine. Too much risk.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

One of the boarding/daycare places we go to requires Bordatella every 6 months, no exceptions. And they have the oral vaccine available for purchase if you need to give it to your dog to be in line with their policies. We had to do that once because we were desperate (family emergency and we couldn't take the dog) and they were the only place with space. The other places around us are fine with it every year, and I'm pretty sure one or two would waive it. 

For parvo, distemper, and rabies, though, they would never consider waiving it. Too much risk to the dogs AND I would bet it would open them up to a lot of potential legal problems. Even waiving the bordatella might do that, to be honest, depending on how their policies are written.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Zoey gets a bordatella vaccine every 6 months because where we take her requires it. Our last dog went to a different kennel and she had one whenever she went. I believe that both places needed it done 14 days prior to their stay.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

No vaccines for my dogs anymore (8yr old and 13yr old - haven't been vaccinated in over 4 years) and no plans to vaccinate future puppies. If that means I have to sacrifice doing things like agility, then so be it.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks for the input, everyone!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Bumping this thread up... I'm going to be in a situation soon where I believe I may have to board my dog for a few days. They, of course, require a bordatella vaccination on record. I have mixed feelings about this... I'm not sure I'll actually have a choice when it comes down to it as all of the local facilities require it. Has anyone had experience with a facility waiving the bordatella vaccination requirement? Also, any other experiences anyone would like to share regarding the vaccine itself and side effects would be most welcome. Other than the puppy series, historically I have never really done regular vaccinations and I'm not sure I want to start now.


I'm in the same boat, and I'm just going to have to suck it up and get Kuma vaccinated, unfortunately. I don't like to vaccinate unnecessarily, but given that this is the first time he's had to be boarded in 8.5 years, I figure getting a bordatella shot and a couple of booster shots won't kill him, lol.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Yeah, that's kind of where I am with it. I have two kennels I'm going to check out this week and we'll see. I've never had to board any of my animals before so I'm really, really nervous but sometimes your regular dog sitters just aren't available! Better to get her used to it now while she's young I guess. I just really hate the thought of the kennel environment in general but I know tons of people do it all the time, so I don't know why I worry so much!


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

TGKvr said:


> Yeah, that's kind of where I am with it. I have two kennels I'm going to check out this week and we'll see. I've never had to board any of my animals before so I'm really, really nervous but sometimes your regular dog sitters just aren't available! Better to get her used to it now while she's young I guess. I just really hate the thought of the kennel environment in general but I know tons of people do it all the time, so I don't know why I worry so much!


There is no such thing as "A regular kennel environment". There is huge variation in boarding kennels. Some small kennels that are able to do individualized care are wonderful for the dogs. When I had a kennel, our clients regularly reported that their dogs perked up and started wagging and singing happy dog songs when they realized they were going to the kennels. We catered, specially, to social dogs, and allowed a lot of supervised play. We also fed a lot of raw, and most of the dogs loved the food. Shop around. Figure out what your dog likes. Work at it and you may find a kennel that your dogs really do view as a holiday.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks sandgrubber... interesting that you mention the supervised play. One of the kennels I'm looking at does group play sessions and I have mixed feelings. My dog is VERY friendly and social, and will play with any dog she encounters. I have never seen any signs of aggression from her. BUT. I also directly supervise her encounters with other dogs, so I just don't know how I feel about someone else supervising my dog in a group play scenario - no matter that the guy is a well-known and successful trainer of gun dogs. Honestly his facilities look the best out of the ones I've researched so far and the group play is the only thing that makes me pause. While on one hand I'm sure my dog would be happier if she got to play with some of the other dogs, on the other hand I feel uncomfortable being out of control of her play times. He does require a meet-and-greet before taking on a new boarder, and part of that process is to see how she reacts to some of the other dogs there (though she would have her own individual kennel).


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Yeah, that's kind of where I am with it. I have two kennels I'm going to check out this week and we'll see. I've never had to board any of my animals before so I'm really, really nervous but sometimes your regular dog sitters just aren't available! Better to get her used to it now while she's young I guess. I just really hate the thought of the kennel environment in general but I know tons of people do it all the time, so I don't know why I worry so much!


Definitely visit the kennels, but don't give up hope if the first one isn't great. I'm in the same boat, very nervous about having to board Kuma for the first time. I picked two kennels that looked good on their websites and were on the city edge, figured I'd check them out before going farther away from the city. First one I went to was AWFUL, dark, cramped kennels, and the 4 to 6 times a day outside that the website mentioned was actually just the kennel staff opening the door to the outside run on the kennels! If you wanted them to get ANY kind of playtime or social time, you had to pay $5 a shot for a 20 minute session, otherwise the dogs just sit in their kennels the whole time. 

I was horrified, and so worried that they would all be like that, but then I went to see the second place on my list, and it was like night and day! Clean, airy kennels, and they had something like 5 large outdoor play areas plus one indoor play area for bad weather, and the dogs get to go out and play with each other in those play areas up to 7 times a day, so long as they are social! They actually spend very little time in their kennels apart from eating and sleeping. Loads of human interaction and cuddles too. I was so impressed and relieved, and booked Kuma in right then! 

Also check reviews on whatever kennel you look at. I checked both google reviews and their FB pages. Both only had 1 google review, but the review for the first place wasn't even about the boarding, it was about the Cocker Spaniel/Pug mixes they breed there! The review for the second place was absolutely glowing. Then I looked on their FB pages. Now, I know they can control what reviews are actually posted, BUT, the first kennel had turned off the review option on their page, they didn't allow anyone but themselves to post, and had almost no pictures up. The second place had literally 5 pages of 5 star, glowing reviews, AND they had dozens of videos up of the dogs playing and having fun, and tons of photos of the facilities and dogs staying there. They just set my mind at ease so much!

So, long winded post, lol, but don't fear, there ARE kennels out there that will treat your pup well and make sure he has a great time during his stay, you just have to do some homework to find them!


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> When I ran a kennel, I would waive Bordatella vaccination. I had long discussions with my vet about it. She said she didn't do her dogs, and had a hard time recommending the vaccine to clients. Problem is the vaccination doesn't cover all strains, and it often isn't good for a full year. So a dog that's 9 months past its last inoculation (according to this vet) was pretty much like not inoculated. So if you are serious about that precaution, you should require treatment more frequently than the once a year most kennels require. Also, Bordatella is MUCH MUCH MUCH less serious than parvo, distemper or rabies. Sometimes it's just a little dry cough that lasts a day or two. I would never waive requirements for parvo and distemper . . . though the three year shot is fine. Too much risk.


What about if the dog has a titer and shows it doesn't need a parvo/distemper shot? Would you waive it then?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

If I ever had to board mine, I would probably ask the owner of this place, he is a rich dude so the place would likely be expensive, but if its a good place (they REALLY love their dogs and they have one who has fear issues, so I doubt they would have them somewhere bad) i would be happy to pay knowing my boy is going to be okay.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> No vaccines for my dogs anymore (8yr old and 13yr old - haven't been vaccinated in over 4 years) and no plans to vaccinate future puppies. If that means I have to sacrifice doing things like agility, then so be it.


Same here. Mine have only had Rabies and thats it.


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

CoverTune said:


> No vaccines for my dogs anymore (8yr old and 13yr old - haven't been vaccinated in over 4 years) and no plans to vaccinate future puppies. If that means I have to sacrifice doing things like agility, then so be it.


Having had a puppy with Parvo (she survived and is now 9) and knowing how awful it is....

but also 

having a puppy that developed IMT (Immune-mediated thrombocytopenia - a very serious autoimmune disease in which a dog's body attacks its own blood platelets) after her third puppy shot. She is over 2 now and has not needed any additional shots per her titer.

I would still get all puppies vaccinated with the series of puppy shots and run titers thereafter. While reactions do happen I do think the benefits of the puppy shots outway the risks of a reaction. I never ever get any shots done at the same time, everything is spaced at least 4 weeks apart. I am going to start titering my other two dogs also instead of shots when they need them next (they have been on 3 yr shots for some time). We do have to, by law, get the rabies every three years though and I do also get the girls the Lymes shot each year (except Belle as she cannot have that shot due to having IMT)


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I just follow the standard quo for jabs per my states requirements, after they get their puppy shots, they get the required yearly rabies, and KC, distemper, and lepto when they need it (I think its a 3 year shot??? I always ask the vet when they go in for their rabies if they are due for the others yet haha


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