# Cockapoos?



## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

I am searching for a new dog (have a three year old Yorky/Llapsa/Pekineese mix now) and I came across Cockapoos for $300. Is that a decent price? I read that they aren't pure breds and should be avoided. Any feedback?

Also looking at Shih Tzus. Any feedback on those?

Thanks


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

What you read about Cockapoo's being avoided is true. The whole "designer dog" breeding industry is extremely broken; "breeders" don't health test their dogs, don't work their dogs, etc. They pretty much just breed two purebreds together and see whatever comes out. There is no consistency in terms of what the pups should look like, and the temperament the puppy will have is pretty much a crapshoot. Many of them fall into the backyard breeder/puppymill category.

$300 seems awfully cheap so to me this dog seems like its coming out of less than ideal circumstances. 

Go with a Shih Tzu from a reputable breeder.. you'll pay more but it'll be worth it.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

You don't need to avoid them because they are not pure bred but because a lot of them come from byb or puppy mills....you need to evaluate where the pup is coming from ...why are you paying what your are paying..etc

unfortunately a lot of the people that breed mixed dogs are in it for the money and are less concerned about the welfare and health of what they are producing....


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

I just talked to a woman who has various dogs (puppy mill?). Anyway, she also has a Shapoo (Thitzu/Yorky) mix for $300. Still stay away?


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

Stay away. Depending on where you live, you can rescue the same exact type of dog from a shelter.


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

I think I am going to stay away. As I am reading the ads, there are several mixtures with her phone number. When I talked to her, she ran through a list of dogs. hmm


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Run far far away........if you looking for a mix...go on Petfinder.com or check your local rescue ...a lot of breed specific rescues have mixes too


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Yes stay far away from breeders like that. 

You want to find a breeder that health tests or check out shelters/rescues near you. If you need any help finding a good breeder or rescue most of us would be more than happy to help.


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

Thanks I have been checking shelters and such every day. Sure is hard to find a young small female dog.


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

Yikes, here in sw fl there are so many young, purebred, mixed , little, big, male, female....
You could call your shelter and leave your info, so they can notify you when your type of pup comes in.


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## Mom2Sadie (Jan 28, 2008)

Cockapoos are a wonderful mix that has been around for decades. Just be careful where you get it from. Any place that just breeds and breeds and breeds and has tons of mixtures of dogs is a red flag for sure. I love my cockapoo!!


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

If you want a mutt, see a shelter. Lots of them there, and for a whole lot less.


Heres how the breed determination works:

It all depends on the breed of the sire.

If the sire is a Labrador, and the dam a Poodle, the resultant offspring are known as Labrador mixes.
If the sire is a Poodle, and the dam a Labrador, the resultant offspring are known as Poodle mixes.

This being a verifiable fact, it eliminates the entire B.S. being put forth about so-called "designer dogs' and their supposed "breeds" such as the "goldendoodle", "labradoodle", "cockapoo", "borkie" or any other mixed breed ridiculousness. 

Mixed breeds are great dogs, but the whole "designer name" [email protected] is getting out of hand. It is nothing more than greedy BYBs preying upon the ignorant and ill-informed in order to sell them dubious quality dogs at an inflated price.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Smithcat, GREAT post 

To the OP: I am also surprised that young dogs are hard to come by where you live. In the past month, I have seen 10 week old purebred puppies, sweet 1 year old mixes, and quite a few "designer" mutts at the Humane Society.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I nearly pocketed a little white Poodle mix at the shelter the other day. He looked just like a stuffed animal. Wanna come visit me? I'll introduce you!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Smithcat said:


> It all depends on the breed of the sire.
> 
> If the sire is a Labrador, and the dam a Poodle, the resultant offspring are known as Labrador mixes.
> If the sire is a Poodle, and the dam a Labrador, the resultant offspring are known as Poodle mixes.
> ...



I've never heard this "fact" before...source?

Why not call them both what they are, Labrador x Poodle. I usually see people use "Lab Mix" when they don't KNOW what the other one is. Seeing as how you're more likely to know the dam if you only know one, a litter where the mom is a poodle I'd think is likely to be called poodle mixes.


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## Mom2Sadie (Jan 28, 2008)

Where do you live? Here's a cutie in MO (no doubt from a puppy mill but now on petfinder).

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=12930362

check out petfinder.com and do a search for whatever you're looking for. If there aren't any in your area, there will be soon!


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Here is some information on how to find quality Cockapoo breeders:

http://www.cockapooclub.com/

Those people suggesting a hybrid is less desirable or less valuable than purebreds are expressing their personal bias, not a "fact".

Here is a "fact". If a Cockapoo is the best dog for you, it has more value than any purebred from any breeder.


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

Equinox said:


> To the OP: I am also surprised that young dogs are hard to come by where you live. In the past month, I have seen 10 week old purebred puppies, sweet 1 year old mixes, and quite a few "designer" mutts at the Humane Society.


We rarely see little dogs where I live either. It's mostly labs, pits and hounds at our local shelter. And puppies are rare too unless you want one closer to a year old (still a puppy really but most people want 2 or 3 months old when they want a puppy). Then again, compared to many shelters we don't have a lot of dogs--there are maybe 50 there right now.

The exception was last summer after a puppy mill was busted, there were a number of small dogs then. The ones that didn't get shipped out were adopted fast with a lot of folks ending up dogless since there simply weren't enough dogs for everyone that wanted one.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

I was not stating that a mix breed is less valuable or less desireable; just that the cutsiepie names given to such offspring are not accurate. If you ask any quality breeder of mix breed dogs,(and yes, there are quality mix breeders) they will tell you that the breed of the sire is the determining factor.
Guide Dogs for the Blind has crossed Golden Retrievers with Labrador Retrievers, and the resultant offspring are known according to the breed of the sire; either a Golden cross, or a Labrador cross. They are by no means an inferior dog, in fact the training and testing have shown these crosses to be somewhat better for guidework than the pure lines of either breed.
Stating a fact is not revealing bias, but refusing to accept a fact is.

The term "Hybrid" is also misleading, because dogs are the only species involved in the breeding process, whereas "hybrid" denotes breeding between different species; an example would be a cat-dog cross would be considered a "hybrid" due to the different species involved.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

yeah, petfinder is loaded with small breeds and small breed mixes. I just saw a really cute little shih Tzu puppy. If I were in the market I would snatch her up. You will be shocked at how many are out there in need of a home if you have not already checked it out.


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

Sure wish I could find a small female girl. Our shelters are also filled with either dogs with problems, old dogs, big dogs, etc. We did leave our name at one place today. Personally I don't care if I get a pure bred or not. I am just loosing for a sister to our little dog.


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## Joebas (Dec 23, 2007)

Here are our 2, brother and sister. We have had them now for over a year. They are wonderful and bring so much joy to our lives.










We also have a 6 yr old Pure Golden(rescued at 2 years old)and a 5 month old Pure Newfie.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Smithcat said:


> I was not stating that a mix breed is less valuable or less desireable; just that the cutsiepie names given to such offspring are not accurate. If you ask any quality breeder of mix breed dogs,(and yes, there are quality mix breeders) they will tell you that the breed of the sire is the determining factor.
> Guide Dogs for the Blind has crossed Golden Retrievers with Labrador Retrievers, and the resultant offspring are known according to the breed of the sire; either a Golden cross, or a Labrador cross. They are by no means an inferior dog, in fact the training and testing have shown these crosses to be somewhat better for guidework than the pure lines of either breed.
> Stating a fact is not revealing bias, but refusing to accept a fact is.
> 
> The term "Hybrid" is also misleading, because dogs are the only species involved in the breeding process, whereas "hybrid" denotes breeding between different species; an example would be a cat-dog cross would be considered a "hybrid" due to the different species involved.


Technically you are correct, but in common usage hybrid is used all the time do denote inter-species crosses done to obtain a specific result. Hybrid tomatoes and roses for example. Do you also object to the term being used for cars?

As for cutsiepie names, can you imagine how cumbersome it would be to use "cocker spaniel poodle cross" every time you refer to this particular type of dog that has been popular for 35 years?

We're not talking about a working dog where technical accuracy is important. We are talking about a dogs whose only purpose is to be a companion dog. Why would you want to deny people a cutsiepie name for the dogs they love just because it is not technically accurate? 

Besides, the only people that object to the names are people that object to the dogs, so why should people who love them care?


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

In reference to cars, they truly are hybrid---the mixing of internal combustion engines (one type of locomotion) with electric motors (a completely different and unrelated type of locomotion).
Same with tomatoes---different types of plants grafted onto the tomato stem to produce fruit. It may resemble a tomato, but a genetic test will show the difference. 
They really are hybrid. The dogs arent.
Look, call them whatever you want. Just do not expect those of us who know what the truth is to abide by the misrepresentations. Dont expect us to believe a lie. Thats all.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> . . . As for cutsiepie names, can you imagine how cumbersome it would be to use "cocker spaniel poodle cross" every time you refer to this particular type of dog that has been popular for 35 years?
> 
> We're not talking about a working dog where technical accuracy is important. We are talking about a dogs whose only purpose is to be a companion dog. Why would you want to deny people a cutsiepie name for the dogs they love just because it is not technically accurate?
> 
> Besides, the only people that object to the names are people that object to the dogs, so why should people who love them care?


There is a very simple name for a "cocker spaniel poodle cross." That name is a "mixed breed," or, if that name is too complex, "mutt." The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership. The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous because they legitimize these mixes as being something that they are not, allowing unscrupulous backyard breeders and commercial breeders to profit when it is their irresponsible behavior, not the responsible behavior of hobby breeders, that is contributing to owner-relinquished dogs in shelters. Hobby breeders take the time to test their breeding stock for hereditary issues, to match dogs to their prospective owners, and to take back their puppies--at any age--when those dogs need to be rehomed.

Please, I understand you love your dog, but after 35 years the so-called cockapoo has not moved beyond the Gen-1 stage. That is because they do not breed true, because there is no standard, and because there has been no effort made to do the kind of breeding required to register them with a legitimate registry. Please do not dignify them with the title of a "breed" and denigrate the efforts of all of the people who have made an effort to reduce the number of illnesses and genetic conditions that breeds are prone to and who have made every effort to keep their lines pure and bred to a standard. They are nowhere near the same. The cutesie names are so dangerous because they are a slap in the face of legitimate hobby breeders everywhere every time they are spoken and because they reduce their efforts to the level of backyard breeders everywhere. It's unfair, it's unjust, and it's just plain wrong. These designer breeds open all breeders up to the attacks of the animal rights activists and their hired lackey legislators.

That is the danger of "cutesie" names.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Smithcat said:


> In reference to cars, they truly are hybrid---the mixing of internal combustion engines (one type of locomotion) with electric motors (a completely different and unrelated type of locomotion).
> Same with tomatoes---different types of plants grafted onto the tomato stem to produce fruit. It may resemble a tomato, but a genetic test will show the difference.
> They really are hybrid. The dogs arent.
> Look, call them whatever you want. Just do not expect those of us who know what the truth is to abide by the misrepresentations. Dont expect us to believe a lie. Thats all.


hy⋅brid   /ˈhaɪbrɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hahy-brid] Show IPA Pronunciation 

–noun 1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different _*breeds*_, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics. 
2. a person or group of persons produced by the interaction or crossbreeding of two unlike cultures, traditions, etc. 
3. _*anything*_ derived from heterogeneous sources, or composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds: a hybrid of the academic and business worlds. 
4. a word composed of elements originally drawn from different languages, as television, whose components come from Greek and Latin. 
–adjective 5. bred from two distinct races, _*breeds*_, varieties, species, or genera. 
6. composite; formed or composed of heterogeneous elements. 
7. composed of elements originally drawn from different languages, as a word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hybrid

So it turns out you weren't even technically correct. My bad.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> hy⋅brid   /ˈhaɪbrɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hahy-brid] Show IPA Pronunciation
> 
> –noun 1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different _*breeds*_, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.
> 
> So it turns out you weren't even technically correct. My bad.


You have appeared to miss th most important part of the deffinition given, that would be the part underlined. 

Mixes like the cockapoo, labradoodle, puggle, etc. are not bred for any specific genetics. Yes some "breeders" hope for their dogs to be hypo allergenic but they don't know the specific genetics for that and they couldn't even conrotl them if they did. A hybrid plant or car will always result in 100% of the offspring/resultants being the same. A Lion crossed with a Tiger will always result in a Liger. It's not a case where the cross may be more like a tiger or more like a lion or anywhere in between.

And just because everyone else uses incorrect verbage or silly names for things doesn't mean we should.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> There is a very simple name for a "cocker spaniel poodle cross." That name is a "mixed breed," or, if that name is too complex, "mutt." The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership. The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous because they legitimize these mixes as being something that they are not, allowing unscrupulous backyard breeders and commercial breeders to profit when it is their irresponsible behavior, not the responsible behavior of hobby breeders, that is contributing to owner-relinquished dogs in shelters. Hobby breeders take the time to test their breeding stock for hereditary issues, to match dogs to their prospective owners, and to take back their puppies--at any age--when those dogs need to be rehomed.
> 
> Please, I understand you love your dog, but after 35 years the so-called cockapoo has not moved beyond the Gen-1 stage. That is because they do not breed true, because there is no standard, and because there has been no effort made to do the kind of breeding required to register them with a legitimate registry. Please do not dignify them with the title of a "breed" and denigrate the efforts of all of the people who have made an effort to reduce the number of illnesses and genetic conditions that breeds are prone to and who have made every effort to keep their lines pure and bred to a standard. They are nowhere near the same. The cutesie names are so dangerous because they are a slap in the face of legitimate hobby breeders everywhere every time they are spoken and because they reduce their efforts to the level of backyard breeders everywhere. It's unfair, it's unjust, and it's just plain wrong. These designer breeds open all breeders up to the attacks of the animal rights activists and their hired lackey legislators.
> 
> That is the danger of "cutesie" names.


Excellent post!  Welcome to the forum Loup.


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

I guess I am glad I started this. LOL

Ooops. I mispelled on my post up above. I meant I am looking for a sister for my dog not loosing for a sister.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

> There is a very simple name for a "cocker spaniel poodle cross." That name is a "mixed breed," or, if that name is too complex, "mutt." The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership.


Serouisly? Name one punitive legislation that is even being considered that could be remotely connected to Cockapoo breeding.



> The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous because they legitimize these mixes as being something that they are not, allowing unscrupulous backyard breeders and commercial breeders to profit when it is their irresponsible behavior, not the responsible behavior of hobby breeders, that is contributing to owner-relinquished dogs in shelters.


So why are there so few hybrids in shelters?
Why are there so few hybrid being rehomed on craigslist? 



> Hobby breeders take the time to test their breeding stock for hereditary issues, to match dogs to their prospective owners, and to take back their puppies--at any age--when those dogs need to be rehomed.


The overwhelming majority of small purebred breeding is not done by reputable hobby breeders. This is not a hybrid issue, is a general breeding issue, especially with popular and lucrative small dogs. One is just as likely to find (or not find) a Cockapoo breeder that meets all the standards of a reputable hobby breeder (except showing of course) as they are to find a Yorkie, Maltese, or shit-tzu breeder that meet the standards of a reputable hobby breeder. The problem is most people looking for these dogs, hybrid or purebred, don't care. 




> Please, I understand you love your dog, but after 35 years the so-called cockapoo has not moved beyond the Gen-1 stage. That is because they do not breed true, because there is no standard, and because there has been no effort made to do the kind of breeding required to register them with a legitimate registry.


That's the whole point of hybrids. There is no intention of creating a breed. The traits that are desirable are the one obtained in 1st and 2nd generation crosses. There is no interest in making them a breed. To do so would result in less desirable dog. Creating another breed would do far more harm then good, at it would allow genetic defects to propagate into many generations, and would also encourage many bad breeding practices such as inbreeding.

As for legitimate registries, the reason people breed there pet store bought, puppy mill bred purebred is because the dogs are often AKC registered. 

Hybrid buyers rarely intentionally breed their dogs and are much more likely to neuter them then purebred owners because the offspring of hybrids have no value, real or imagined.




> Please do not dignify them with the title of a "breed" and denigrate the efforts of all of the people who have made an effort to reduce the number of illnesses and genetic conditions that breeds are prone to and who have made every effort to keep their lines pure and bred to a standard. They are nowhere near the same. The cutesie names are so dangerous because they are a slap in the face of legitimate hobby breeders everywhere every time they are spoken and because they reduce their efforts to the level of backyard breeders everywhere.


Hybrids by definition reduce the number of illnesses and genetic conditions that breeds are prone to because they are not a breed and any genetic defects end with the first of second generation.

For every purebred breeder that attempts to breed out genetic defects there are 100 that don't care, so hybrid breeders to more to keep genetic defects from entering the general population than 99% of purebred breeders.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> Serouisly? Name one punitive legislation that is even being considered that could be remotely connected to Cockapoo breeding.


That's like me saying "name one punitive legislation that is even being considered that could be remotely connected to Toy Fox Terrier or Collie breeding. Please. Every time someone says that "breeders" are responsible for the overflowing shelters, they point the finger equally at the hobby breeder who produces one litter every three years and the commercial breeder that pumps out hundreds of litters a year.



KaseyT said:


> So why are there so few hybrids in shelters?
> Why are there so few hybrid being rehomed on craigslist?


There are millions of "hybrids" being rehomed or being dumped in shelters. Every one of the mutts in the shelter represents one breed or another.



KaseyT said:


> The overwhelming majority of small purebred breeding is not done by reputable hobby breeders. This is not a hybrid issue, is a general breeding issue, especially with popular and lucrative small dogs. One is just as likely to find (or not find) a Cockapoo breeder that meets all the standards of a reputable hobby breeder (except showing of course) as they are to find a Yorkie, Maltese, or shit-tzu breeder that meet the standards of a reputable hobby breeder. The problem is most people looking for these dogs, hybrid or purebred, don't care.


On the contrary. Most of the backyard breeders that produce cockapoos and other designer dogs start with or use substandard dogs that have purchased on a limited registration agreement from the AKC or have been otherwise purchased as a pet. They then scrap the original registration in favor of APRI, Continental Kennel Club, or other similar pet "registries" and sell their dogs for inflated prices. Physical environments are only a small part of the issue--most of these dogs have flaws that should not be reproduced, many of which they have not been tested for, and are bred to any available stud to make the cross instead of to carefully chosen mates that can better the breed.



KaseyT said:


> That's the whole point of hybrids. There is no intention of creating a breed. The traits that are desirable are the one obtained in 1st and 2nd generation crosses. There is no interest in making them a breed. To do so would result in less desirable dog. Creating another breed would do far more harm then good, at it would allow genetic defects to propagate into many generations, and would also encourage many bad breed practices such as inbreeding.


Make them a less desirable dog? How so? If there is no consistency in cockapoos because they are a Gen-1 cross, then how can creating more consistency be less desirable? If the dogs are nothing more than a mix, then why give them a ridiculous "breed" name instead of calling them what they are: a mixed breed?



KaseyT said:


> Hybrids by definition reduce the number of illnesses and genetic conditions that breeds are prone to because they are not a breed and any genetic defects end with the first of second generation.


What? okay, I'm going to try to make sense of this statement. No matter what, any dogs you produce are going to have genetic flaws. There is no such thing as an animal, anywhere, that is completely free of genetic flaws. Both poodles and cocker spaniels have issues with their knees and elbows, with PRA, and with a host of other problems. These issues don't magically attach themselves to a "poodle" gene or a "cocker spaniel" gene and not meet up when the two breeds are mixed. There is only a limited benefit to mixing breeds in terms of health--once the second generation is produced then all of those benefits disappear. So, the reason that cocker spaniel x poodle breeders do not want to create a true breed is because their limited claims to the benefits of their dogs would be gone in the second generation and their profits over keeping unregistered, un-health-tested dogs would be lost when they had to start keeping records that would comply with breed creation.



KaseyT said:


> For every purebred breeder that attempts to breed out genetic defects that are 100 that don't care, so hybrid breeders to more to keep genetic defects from entering the general population than 99% of purebred breeders.


Show me the peer-reviewed research study that verifies this claim. The fact is that the vast majority of hobby breeders that I speak to at shows are extremely concerned with improving their breeds and reducing incidence of genetic issues. If hobby breeders were so disinclined to remove genetic issues from their breeds, then tell me why there are so many CERF and OFA clinics at dog shows. Tell me why the Canine Health Information Center program is already so strong and why so many additional breeds are adding CHIC database registration to their requirements of ethical compliance for breeders. Tell me why pedigrees and record-keeping and performance activities are such an important part of hobby breeding.

Your arguments are not fact-based. Please do your research and re-examine your position. I think you'll find that the production of mixed breeds is what is unethical and is flooding the shelters, not the hobby breeding of purebred dogs.

CHIC
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/chicinfo.html

Kasey, you edited your post and, since I don't believe in editing unless it's to correct spelling or grammar, then I will respond here. You stated:


KaseyT said:


> Creating another breed would do far more harm then good, at it would allow genetic defects to propagate into many generations, and would also encourage many bad breeding practices such as inbreeding.


The fact is that all dogs are inbred, purebred or not. There were very few of the original ancestors of dogs wandering the earth when they evolved so, in actuality, they all emerged from an extremely small gene pool. In fact, controlled inbreeding or controlled line breeding is beneficial to a breed. Good traits as well as bad are revealed and when bad traits emerge that particular line of dog can be selected against to help remove the issue from the gene pool.



KaseyT said:


> As for legitimate registries, the reason people breed there pet store bought, puppy mill bred purebred is because the dogs are often AKC registered.


On the contrary--while the AKC does work with commercial breeders (one of the bones I have to pick with them and one of the reasons I prefer UKC as a whole), the majority of backyard breeders have abandoned AKC registration except for their Gen-1 dogs. Most of them now use APRI or other registries that will sell a registration for a few dollars without concern as to the dog being bred. I guarantee you that if I bred my collie to my TFT I could register a new "breed" called the Toy (or Mini) Foxollie" and make a fortune on the small, longhaired beasts with a cute name. I don't because I'm ethical and won't exploit my dogs the way that people who sell designer dogs for a profit do.



KaseyT said:


> Hybrid buyer rarely intentionally breed their dogs and are much more likely to neuter them then purebred owners because the offspring of hybrids have no value, real or imagined.


That is just blatant misinformation. Generally, if a dog is perceived to have value, such as a dog that has a pedigree and a registration, it is perceived as being "worth" spaying, neutering, training--that is, sinking money into it. The people who dump their dogs are those that perceive the dog as having little to no value or those that have become bored with the animal. People who buy these hybrids are often uninformed about the reality of these designer dogs or, for that matter, many of the things that are involved with keeping dogs. They are more likely to view their dogs as status symbols and rarely spend a great deal of time training them because it it "unnecessary." Untrained dogs are more prone to getting loose and, if they are not spayed or neutered, are more prone to producing unwanted puppies.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> So why are there so few hybrids in shelters?
> Why are there so few hybrid being rehomed on craigslist?
> 
> 
> ...



Where do you live? You only have purebred dogs in your shelter area? look on petfinder, open your freaking eyes search for poodle on there, and i will guarentee you that you will find tons of poodle mixes.

Saying mixes dont get genetic issue is bulls hot. you are a idiot for even thinking that.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

Thanks Loup, you said what I had in mind.

With Kasey's loose definition of "hybrid" which would also encumber every mixed bred dog (hey you're the one that points out that it's a mixed breed that makes it a hybrid) so all those mixed bred "hybrid" dogs in the shelters don't count...only the ones you want to?

I see lots of poodle mixes on my petfinder in my area, as to your definition, those would be considered hybrids. Your consistent argument that you won't see a hybrid on craigslist or on petfinder is ridiculous, I see them daily in our local shelter or posted on Craigslist because of a million reasons.

There's a Husky/GSD "hybrid" that is on Craigslist constantly, it's the same dog over and over...by your term, he is a hybrid. What's next? Will you argue it's because he's not a goldenwhatever is why he's constantly being rehomed?

I see far fewer purebred dogs in our shelter than I do mixes. 
http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/jeffersonspca.html

Look there, there's a pug x boston terrier mix - isn't that a "BUG"? Isn't that a designer dog? I bring this up because by your definition, these designer dogs are not in shelters at all and cannot be obtained from such.

That is just one of 3 shelters within 10 miles from my house...the others don't even post on petfinder.

ETA: This shelter only takes what they feel will be easily adopted out, so the muttliest of mutts don't get this nice place, they end up at the local county run shelter (which I'm told is no longer a kill shelter, woohoo)


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Hybrid buyers rarely intentionally breed their dogs and are much more likely to neuter them then purebred owners because the offspring of hybrids have no value, real or imagined.


funny, out of the hundreds of dog owners I see in the store over a week, so far I have met ONE person who wanted to breed her dog. It was a mix. She wanted to breed it with either another mix of that same kind, or a different mix. She figured she could have just one litter for the dog's sake and sell the puppies for a lot of cash! Because they would be cute and fluffy little cockaloadapooshis or some crap. She was ignorant about breeding and wanted to breed her "registered" mutt for the hell of it. Yaaay "hybrids".


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> There is a very simple name for a "cocker spaniel poodle cross." That name is a "mixed breed," or, if that name is too complex, "mutt." The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership. The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous because they legitimize these mixes as being something that they are not, allowing unscrupulous backyard breeders and commercial breeders to profit when it is their irresponsible behavior, not the responsible behavior of hobby breeders, that is contributing to owner-relinquished dogs in shelters. Hobby breeders take the time to test their breeding stock for hereditary issues, to match dogs to their prospective owners, and to take back their puppies--at any age--when those dogs need to be rehomed.


I don't think it's appropriate to call a breeder responsible or irresponsible based soley on the type of dogs they are breeding. Just because you are breeding purebreds doesn't mean you are a responsible breeder and just because you are breeding a crossed/mixed/hybrid/whatever doesn't mean you are an irresponsible breeder.

I think people here sometimes do a disservice to their efforts to educate others about responsible breeding and how to choose a breeder by becoming so hung up on the breed/type of dog the person is interested in. Does it matter if they want a labradoodle if the breeder they choose meets the standards of responsible breeder? Would you support them getting a purebred lab or poodle from an irresponsible breeder? You can argue that there aren't responsible breeders of these mixes but if you educate the person on the importance of finding a good breeder they'll find one or find another breed--either way it's a win for the buyer, the breeder and the dog.

Personally, I'm less concerned about putting an end to the breeding of certain dogs and more concerned about putting an end to irresponsible breeding of *any* dogs.

Also, I'm not aware of any legislation that is seeking to put an end to mixed breed dogs and would be interested in viewing your source on that. To be honest, I'm not aware of legislation seeking to put an end to breeding of any dogs (mixed or pure) aside from BSL targetting "vicious" dogs. I'm sure the extremists are all for eliminating pets but they're also interested in eliminating all meat from the supermarket and I don't see that happening either.

Just for fun, I did a search at OFA and found these results that prove someone somewhere is OFA testing their cockapoos! I think there is more that responsible breeders do and I'm not inclined to go on a hunt for a responsible cockapoo breeder since I'm really not in the market for one but we all know that even that small bit is more than some do when breeding purebreds.


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

We almost thought we had a dog today. There was a female chiwawa (spelling off I know) in a town forty miles away. We had gone home to get a carrier and a collar and leash and told the woman we would be there in a hour. Just ready to leave and she leaves a message on my phone that her daughter decided to keep the girl. ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR We were not happy.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> So why are there so few hybrids in shelters?
> Why are there so few hybrid being rehomed on craigslist?


Serouisly? Serouisly? I don't know what cloud you've been hanging out on but here on earth we have a site called petfinder. Have you heard of petfinder? Or ever looked at the site?
They even have dogs specificaly listed as "Cockapoos". If you browse thru the different breeds you'll also notice that a good amount are listed as being mixed with another breed. And of the ones that only have one breed listed it's quite obvious that many of them are mixes.



KaseyT said:


> One is just as likely to find (or not find) a Cockapoo breeder that meets all the standards of a reputable hobby breeder (except showing of course) as they are to find a Yorkie, Maltese, or shit-tzu breeder that meet the standards of a reputable hobby breeder.


For every decent Cockapoo or mixed breeder you can find, you can just as easily find half a dozen purebred breeders. I've only seen a small few Labradoodle breeders that have made an attempt to be responsible breeders. And I've never seen a responsible Cockapoo breeder. Perhaps you can enlighten us all and show us where they've been hiding.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

There is a LITTER of puggle puppies at my local shelter.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

midnight mojo said:


> I don't think it's appropriate to call a breeder responsible or irresponsible based soley on the type of dogs they are breeding. Just because you are breeding purebreds doesn't mean you are a responsible breeder and just because you are breeding a crossed/mixed/hybrid/whatever doesn't mean you are an irresponsible breeder.


I don't claim that every breeder of purebred animals is automatically responsible. Please notice I keep saying "hobby" breeder. A "hobby" breeder is typically someone who has an active interest in the dog fancy, whether through conformation or performance events, who breeds their dog to the standard of at least one legitimate registry, who typically health tests and competes with their registered dogs. Not every hobby breeder is a responsible breeder, but they comprise a good portion of those breeders.

However, yes, I would typify anyone who breeds mixed breed dogs to make a profit as being irresponsible. I have no use for so-called "cockapoos," "labradoodles," or "border jacks" or any of their ilk. It used to be that cockapoos were given away by the people who had "oops" litters. Labradoodles were bred for a time in Australia in an effort to produce hypoallergenic guide and service dogs. The experiment was acknowledged as a failure, since the dogs did not breed true for coat or ability, yet many people still use this experiment to legitimize the "labradoodle." I have utterly no use for "border jacks:" dogs that are produced by breeding border collies and Jack Russell terriers together to create a "super" agility and flyball dog. I wonder what happens to those mixes that are not super performance dogs--what homes do they end up in and how quickly are they abandoned in shelters when they prove to have too much drive for the average owner? I don't care so much about lurchers and farm collies as long as they are used on farms to perform the jobs for which they were purportedly bred.



midnight mojo said:


> I think people here sometimes do a disservice to their efforts to educate others about responsible breeding and how to choose a breeder by becoming so hung up on the breed/type of dog the person is interested in. Does it matter if they want a labradoodle if the breeder they choose meets the standards of responsible breeder? Would you support them getting a purebred lab or poodle from an irresponsible breeder? You can argue that there aren't responsible breeders of these mixes but if you educate the person on the importance of finding a good breeder they'll find one or find another breed--either way it's a win for the buyer, the breeder and the dog.


I agree that education is the key. However, by definition the labradoodle breeder *is* irresponsible because they are breeding solely to make a profit and not for the betterment of a breed or for the perpetuation of a rare breed or for the creation of a new and purposeful breed. That's exploitation, no matter how you slice it and exploitation is irresponsible.



midnight mojo said:


> Personally, I'm less concerned about putting an end to the breeding of certain dogs and more concerned about putting an end to irresponsible breeding of *any* dogs.


I never said otherwise. However, since breeding mixed breed dogs is irresponsible by definition and because there are far more mixes in shelters, I think the public needs more education on the harm that the designer dogs are doing. The AR sound byte of "if you breed or buy another dog in the shelter dies" is only accurate to a point: most people who buy a registered purebred dog do not want a mixed breed dog. However, if a person wants a mixed breed dog and is suckered into buying a high-priced "designer" dog instead of adopting a dog with a similar mix from a shelter, then the sound byte is correct--because of that designer dog an equally worthy dog of similar breeding died in a shelter.



midnight mojo said:


> Also, I'm not aware of any legislation that is seeking to put an end to mixed breed dogs and would be interested in viewing your source on that. To be honest, I'm not aware of legislation seeking to put an end to breeding of any dogs (mixed or pure) aside from BSL targetting "vicious" dogs. I'm sure the extremists are all for eliminating pets but they're also interested in eliminating all meat from the supermarket and I don't see that happening either.


Please show me where I said that any legislation was being made to end breeding of mixed breeds. I could only wish that was the fact. What I did say, however, was that because of the irresponsible "breeders" responsible breeders are being made to suffer ill effects. There are a great deal of AR sponsored bills out there right now that involve breeder licensing, setting USDA standards for hobby breeder "kennels" (even when dogs are bred and raised in homes), warrantless entry of property (not a domicile), and so on. Hobby breeders have been targeted by AR representative working with local animal control agents; they have had dogs seized or destroyed, or have been forced to pay punitive fines for no other reason than having intact dogs or dogs with cropped ears or docked tails on the property.

Please name one other legal avocation that requires fingerprinting and criminal background checks (other than those requiring firearms), license fees in the hundreds of dollars annually, minimum space requirements per incident, maximum numbers for possession, and so on? All you need to do is look at the legislation in Louisville, Kentucky and in Dallas, TX to see that there are laws in place that make criminals out of people for no other reason than owning and breeding dogs.



midnight mojo said:


> Just for fun, I did a search at OFA and found these results that prove someone somewhere is OFA testing their cockapoos! I think there is more that responsible breeders do and I'm not inclined to go on a hunt for a responsible cockapoo breeder since I'm really not in the market for one but we all know that even that small bit is more than some do when breeding purebreds.


A single person listing hip or knee results with OFA is not the sign of a group of breeders being responsible. When there is a useful database for cocker spaniel/poodle mixes, then I'll consider the possibility of some responsibility.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

midnight mojo said:


> To be honest, I'm not aware of legislation seeking to put an end to breeding of any dogs (mixed or pure)


Ever heard of mandatory spay & neuter??



midnight mojo said:


> ... but we all know that even that small bit is more than some do when breeding purebreds.


A small bit is more than some do when breeding any dog purebred or otherwise.


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## FawkesMom (Jan 14, 2009)

Snuggles, if you PM me with what area you live in I will help you look for a dog, I have some contacts at rescues who might be able to help.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Inga said:


> yeah, petfinder is loaded with small breeds and small breed mixes. I just saw a really cute little shih Tzu puppy. If I were in the market I would snatch her up. You will be shocked at how many are out there in need of a home if you have not already checked it out.


No kidding! Just for fun I searched "poodle" on Petfinder...Geez I can't believe how many poodle mixes I found, puppies, too!


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> I don't claim that every breeder of purebred animals is automatically responsible. Please notice I keep saying "hobby" breeder. A "hobby" breeder is typically someone who has an active interest in the dog fancy, whether through conformation or performance events, who breeds their dog to the standard of at least one legitimate registry, who typically health tests and competes with their registered dogs. Not every hobby breeder is a responsible breeder, but they comprise a good portion of those breeders.
> 
> However, yes, I would typify anyone who breeds mixed breed dogs to make a profit as being irresponsible. I have no use for so-called "cockapoos," "labradoodles," or "border jacks" or any of their ilk. It used to be that cockapoos were given away by the people who had "oops" litters. Labradoodles were bred for a time in Australia in an effort to produce hypoallergenic guide and service dogs. The experiment was acknowledged as a failure, since the dogs did not breed true for coat or ability, yet many people still use this experiment to legitimize the "labradoodle." I have utterly no use for "border jacks:" dogs that are produced by breeding border collies and Jack Russell terriers together to create a "super" agility and flyball dog. I wonder what happens to those mixes that are not super performance dogs--what homes do they end up in and how quickly are they abandoned in shelters when they prove to have too much drive for the average owner? I don't care so much about lurchers and farm collies as long as they are used on farms to perform the jobs for which they were purportedly bred.


I realize you said hobby breeder and I'm familiar with the term, my point was that you equated responsibility with the breed/type of dog being bred and I disagree with it. There are hobby and show breeders who are not responsible so it's hardly the sole requirement.

Now, you may not personally have a use for doodles and puggles or whatever, but like it or not there is a market for it. People like and want these dogs whether you approve of them or not and despite your preferences, dogs are a supply and demand market. We can't get rid of the supply and the only way to lessen the demand for dogs from irresponsible breeders (however you choose to define them) is through education. Educating buyers based on what they will view is best for them will do a lot more for dogs, breeders and buyers than simply bashing breeders of mixes and people who want one of their dogs.

We've had full shelters for years, this is not a problem that's cropped up in the last few years--even though "designer" dogs have only become popular in recent years. Surely you don't believe that people buying doodles and such would not be purchasing dogs if there was no such thing as a doodle? It's not about the dogs, it's about irresponsible breeding and the type dogs being bred have nothing to do with it.



LoupGarouTFTs said:


> I agree that education is the key. However, by definition the labradoodle breeder *is* irresponsible because they are breeding solely to make a profit and not for the betterment of a breed or for the perpetuation of a rare breed or for the creation of a new and purposeful breed. That's exploitation, no matter how you slice it and exploitation is irresponsible.


Actually, that's your definition, not mine. There are a number of breeds that have serious issues due to irresponsible breeding for the purpose of winning in the show ring, which I personally don't feel betters the breed at all. The vast majority of dogs are companion pets regardless of their original purpose. Most folks here do things with their dogs but I think we can all agree this forum is not representitive of the average dog owner.



LoupGarouTFTs said:


> I never said otherwise. However, since breeding mixed breed dogs is irresponsible by definition and because there are far more mixes in shelters, I think the public needs more education on the harm that the designer dogs are doing. The AR sound byte of "if you breed or buy another dog in the shelter dies" is only accurate to a point: most people who buy a registered purebred dog do not want a mixed breed dog. However, if a person wants a mixed breed dog and is suckered into buying a high-priced "designer" dog instead of adopting a dog with a similar mix from a shelter, then the sound byte is correct--because of that designer dog an equally worthy dog of similar breeding died in a shelter.


Now you are confusing people who want to purchase from a breeder with people who want to rescue. Rescue isn't for everyone regardless of what kind of dog you'd like to own just as some folks aren't at all interested in purchasing from a breeder, they'd rather rescue. Dogs will be bred based on supply and demand, it doesn't matter what breed (or mix) they are because that's just a fad and will change. The pet overpopulation has been a documented problem for more than 60 years, designer dogs are a much more recent trend. Cockapoos have been around a while (40 or 50 years I think I've heard? not sure), but the first doodles (the real stars of the designer dog trend) didn't show up till the late '80's and didn't really become popular until much more recently.




LoupGarouTFTs said:


> Please show me where I said that any legislation was being made to end breeding of mixed breeds. I could only wish that was the fact. What I did say, however, was that because of the irresponsible "breeders" responsible breeders are being made to suffer ill effects. There are a great deal of AR sponsored bills out there right now that involve breeder licensing, setting USDA standards for hobby breeder "kennels" (even when dogs are bred and raised in homes), warrantless entry of property (not a domicile), and so on. Hobby breeders have been targeted by AR representative working with local animal control agents; they have had dogs seized or destroyed, or have been forced to pay punitive fines for no other reason than having intact dogs or dogs with cropped ears or docked tails on the property.


Your comment was "The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership." I read that as breeders of mixed breeds are the reason (and thus one would assume also a target) for the legislation you mentioned and I would be interested in seeing it. There are most certainly extremists looking to end pet ownership--they are also looking to end the availability of meat in supermarkets and leather in department stores, I believe the probability of one happening is the same as another. I'm not interested in the general animal rights stuff, I am interested in the part that breeders of mixes are specifically responsible for.




LoupGarouTFTs said:


> Please name one other legal avocation that requires fingerprinting and criminal background checks (other than those requiring firearms), license fees in the hundreds of dollars annually, minimum space requirements per incident, maximum numbers for possession, and so on? All you need to do is look at the legislation in Louisville, Kentucky and in Dallas, TX to see that there are laws in place that make criminals out of people for no other reason than owning and breeding dogs.


Federal licensure for someone with more than fifty dogs per year... That's a lot for a single person to own or sell in a single year. I'm not at all involved in showing or breeding dogs, but that sounds like a lot for someone to handle. Is that the normal number of dogs for a hobby breeder who has a litter every few years to have in their home?

And even if that is the norm, why would federal licensure be bad?



LoupGarouTFTs said:


> A single person listing hip or knee results with OFA is not the sign of a group of breeders being responsible. When there is a useful database for cocker spaniel/poodle mixes, then I'll consider the possibility of some responsibility.


I'm not pointing to a group of breeders being responsible, I'm only suggesting that it is entirely possible that someone is out there breeding a mix of dogs in a responsible manner (or at least doing some health testing). While it may not be everything I personally look for, it's a start and more than what some people breeding purebreds are doing. 

I firmly believe demand matches supply and educated buyers who expect more from breeders are what will lead to better breeding practices. I don't have to know what breed (or mix) of dog a person is searching for to educate them on identifying a responsible breeder because it's the same criteria for a breeder of labradoodles as it is for a breeder of labs.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> Hybrids by definition reduce the number of illnesses and genetic conditions that breeds are prone to because they are not a breed and any genetic defects end with the first of second generation.
> 
> For every purebred breeder that attempts to breed out genetic defects there are 100 that don't care, so hybrid breeders to more to keep genetic defects from entering the general population than 99% of purebred breeders.


WHAT? WOW. What's the weather like in your world?


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

midnight mojo said:


> I realize you said hobby breeder and I'm familiar with the term, my point was that you equated responsibility with the breed/type of dog being bred and I disagree with it. There are hobby and show breeders who are not responsible so it's hardly the sole requirement.


I never said that there were no irresponsible hobby breeders. I did say that anyone who deliberately produces mixed breeds for the purpose of sale and profit is irresponsible by definition. I stand by that position and would like to hear your explanation as to why it is wrong.



midnight mojo said:


> Now, you may not personally have a use for doodles and puggles or whatever, but like it or not there is a market for it. People like and want these dogs whether you approve of them or not and despite your preferences, dogs are a supply and demand market. We can't get rid of the supply and the only way to lessen the demand for dogs from irresponsible breeders (however you choose to define them) is through education. Educating buyers based on what they will view is best for them will do a lot more for dogs, breeders and buyers than simply bashing breeders of mixes and people who want one of their dogs.


There is a market for illegal drugs, too, but that doesn't mean that selling them is acceptable. Although mixed breed dogs are not illegal substances, they comprise the vast majority of the animals being housed and killed in shelters. There is absolutely no effort on the part of the shelter community to educate people about responsible breeding--in fact, breeders are demonized at all levels. Interestingly, many of these demonized breeders are active in rescue and encourage people to adopt from shelters. Ironic, isn't it?



midnight mojo said:


> We've had full shelters for years, this is not a problem that's cropped up in the last few years--even though "designer" dogs have only become popular in recent years. Surely you don't believe that people buying doodles and such would not be purchasing dogs if there was no such thing as a doodle? It's not about the dogs, it's about irresponsible breeding and the type dogs being bred have nothing to do with it.


"Designer dogs" are the same mixed breeds that have been inhabiting our shelters for years. Yes, I believe that marketing has led people to purchase them instead of adopt them. You are incredibly naive if you do not. I agree that irresponsible breeding has a lot to do with their existence: if breeders of designer dogs didn't pass them off as breeds then fewer people would be buying them and dumping them when they did not live up to their promise.



midnight mojo said:


> Actually, that's your definition, not mine. There are a number of breeds that have serious issues due to irresponsible breeding for the purpose of winning in the show ring, which I personally don't feel betters the breed at all. The vast majority of dogs are companion pets regardless of their original purpose. Most folks here do things with their dogs but I think we can all agree this forum is not representitive of the average dog owner.


Yes, the vast majority of dogs are pets, including the canine competitors that you see on television. Yes, there are some breeds that have flaws that are reproduced for the sake of winning. However, that is not a reason to negate all of the efforts that responsible hobby breeders are making to eliminate genetic issues that affect the breeds. 



midnight mojo said:


> Now you are confusing people who want to purchase from a breeder with people who want to rescue. Rescue isn't for everyone regardless of what kind of dog you'd like to own just as some folks aren't at all interested in purchasing from a breeder, they'd rather rescue. Dogs will be bred based on supply and demand, it doesn't matter what breed (or mix) they are because that's just a fad and will change. The pet overpopulation has been a documented problem for more than 60 years, designer dogs are a much more recent trend. Cockapoos have been around a while (40 or 50 years I think I've heard? not sure), but the first doodles (the real stars of the designer dog trend) didn't show up till the late '80's and didn't really become popular until much more recently.


Cockapoos are the basis for the designer dog craze, don't you think? In any case, you're just reversing what I said--just as I point out that most people that purchase purebreds are uninterested in mixed breeds, you point out that people who are interested in mixed breeds are not necessarily interested in purebreds. However, the point I was making was about the sound byte: purchases of purebreds are not those that are causing shelter dogs to die--designer dog purchases are. Think about that objectively for a minute. 



midnight mojo said:


> Your comment was "The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership." I read that as breeders of mixed breeds are the reason (and thus one would assume also a target) for the legislation you mentioned and I would be interested in seeing it. There are most certainly extremists looking to end pet ownership--they are also looking to end the availability of meat in supermarkets and leather in department stores, I believe the probability of one happening is the same as another. I'm not interested in the general animal rights stuff, I am interested in the part that breeders of mixes are specifically responsible for.


Designer dog breeders do all of the things that the animal rights activists accuse hobby breeder of doing. Worst of all, they breed solely to make a profit. That is exploitation at the very worst. Since AR activists do not choose to separate breeders from one another, hobby breeders are lumped in with commercial breeders, backyard breeders, and mixed breed producers. However, I'm not playing your game of splitting hairs--whether or not you agree with me does not absolve mixed breed dog producers of their responsibility in terms of anti-breeder legislation.



midnight mojo said:


> Federal licensure for someone with more than fifty dogs per year... That's a lot for a single person to own or sell in a single year. I'm not at all involved in showing or breeding dogs, but that sounds like a lot for someone to handle. Is that the normal number of dogs for a hobby breeder who has a litter every few years to have in their home? And even if that is the norm, why would federal licensure be bad?


All of the requirements I mentioned are local ones, not federal. Some of these requirements are for people with as few as three intact females whether they are used for breeding or not. Please familiarize yourself with the legislation before you engage in little quips that attempt to minimize the issue.



midnight mojo said:


> I'm not pointing to a group of breeders being responsible, I'm only suggesting that it is entirely possible that someone is out there breeding a mix of dogs in a responsible manner (or at least doing some health testing). While it may not be everything I personally look for, it's a start and more than what some people breeding purebreds are doing.


No. Producing mixed breed dogs for the sole reason of profiting from their sale is irresponsible by definition.



midnight mojo said:


> I firmly believe demand matches supply and educated buyers who expect more from breeders are what will lead to better breeding practices. I don't have to know what breed (or mix) of dog a person is searching for to educate them on identifying a responsible breeder because it's the same criteria for a breeder of labradoodles as it is for a breeder of labs.


Breeding mixes is irresponsible by definition. Millions of mixes exist in shelters, we do not need people who breed them solely for profit producing more. Education is only possible when breeders are not demonized by those who seek to place these mixes; breeders who currently seek to educate the public have lessened credibility because of these unconscionable actions on the part of shelters that unwittingly (or wittingly) do the animal rights activists work for them. Petfinder, which is spoken of so highly by so many people, does not allow any positive representation of breeding or breeders on their website. Although people are permitted to discuss breeders in a negative light, those who attempt to correct misconceptions or outright lies are banned for their efforts. There is no effort to educate anyone on that site--or on so many sites--of the positive things that hobby breeders do on a daily basis; rather they are converted into "the problem," when purebred animals comprise only a tiny portion of the animals in shelters every year.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

claps for Loup!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Snuggles said:


> I am searching for a new dog (have a three year old Yorky/Llapsa/Pekineese mix now) and I came across Cockapoos for $300. Is that a decent price? I read that they aren't pure breds and should be avoided. Any feedback?
> 
> Also looking at Shih Tzus. Any feedback on those?
> 
> Thanks


Well, I think it would be resonable IF all vaccs are done and they come with a gift card for S/N. Otherwise I wouldn't touch one for that price.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, when it was stated what Hybrid means, Breeds was underlined but the very next words were Varieties and species. Aren't say a Cocker and a Poodle, different VARIETIES?


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Kyllobernese said:


> Just out of curiosity, when it was stated what Hybrid means, Breeds was underlined but the very next words were Varieties and species. Aren't say a Cocker and a Poodle, different VARIETIES?


Good question! No, Cocker Spaniels and Poodles are examples of different breeds of dogs. They each have distinct characteristics that are reproduced in each succeeding generation. These characteristics have been created through generations of selective breeding, usually for a specific purpose. Therefore, while Cockers and Poodles both started out as bird dogs, spaniels are usually used to flush land-based game birds and poodles were typically water bird retrievers.

A _variety_ shows up in a breed that separates its members by size or by coat type. Thirteen and 15-inch Beagles, Toy and standard Manchester Terriers, Rough and Smooth Collies, and all three types of Dachshund are examples of varieties.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Kyllobernese said:


> Just out of curiosity, when it was stated what Hybrid means, Breeds was underlined but the very next words were Varieties and species. Aren't say a Cocker and a Poodle, different VARIETIES?


Varieties would be analogous to breeds when referring to a species of plant, such as tomatoes or roses.


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

Carla why would you say the price would be reasonable if all shots were done? The dog would be a year old by then.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Snuggles said:


> Carla why would you say the price would be reasonable if all shots were done? The dog would be a year old by then.


Usually when a puppy is sold the shots should be up to date, not all done. And what shot are you thinking of that they don't get until a year old? Rabies is done at 3-4 months, everything would be "done" by then.


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## Snuggles (May 1, 2008)

I misunderstood you. I do look for the dogs that are up to date on their shots.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Snuggles said:


> Carla why would you say the price would be reasonable if all shots were done? The dog would be a year old by then.


 
I said all shots AND a gift cert for spay nueter (if NOT already done) because it's close to what many respectable rescues would charge, albeit more than a shelter. I paid about that to adopt Angel, my dobie at 6 months, though she wasn't spayed, from a breeder that had repoed her. Yes, I could have gotten an 8 week old pup from a BYB here for a little more, but I chose to rescue an older pup that needed to be rehomed and had issues (I know, I'm NUTS!!!)


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## heidiann (Feb 3, 2008)

Joebas said:


> Here are our 2, brother and sister. We have had them now for over a year. They are wonderful and bring so much joy to our lives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG that Newfie is a total teddy bear!! What a face!!! And your cockapoo on the left looks JUST like my mom's! She got her's from a pet store (she ignored my suggestion of going to a shelter!)...he was older (like 5 months) and she felt horrible for him. He didn't even know how to walk on grass...it scared him! 

He's a good dog though, a little high strung and needs some training work, but he'll be ok. 

They keep him cut short with the face longer.


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## Joebas (Dec 23, 2007)

heidiann said:


> OMG that Newfie is a total teddy bear!! What a face!!! And your cockapoo on the left looks JUST like my mom's! She got her's from a pet store (she ignored my suggestion of going to a shelter!)...he was older (like 5 months) and she felt horrible for him. He didn't even know how to walk on grass...it scared him!
> 
> He's a good dog though, a little high strung and needs some training work, but he'll be ok.
> 
> They keep him cut short with the face longer.


His name is actually Teddy!!! That picture was taken when he just turned 4 months old and weight in at 55 lbs. He will be 6 months on 2/6 and he shoud be 70 pounds by then.

The Cockapoo on the left is Lucky and he's the leader of the pack. He's more poodle like while Lucy is more Cocker like(hair wise that is) They have worked out nicely for us so far. They all absolutely love my wife and follow her everywhere all day long.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> I said all shots AND a gift cert for spay nueter (if NOT already done) because it's close to what many respectable rescues would charge, albeit more than a shelter. I paid about that to adopt Angel, my dobie at 6 months, though she wasn't spayed, from a breeder that had repoed her. Yes, I could have gotten an 8 week old pup from a BYB here for a little more, but I chose to rescue an older pup that needed to be rehomed and had issues (I know, I'm NUTS!!!)



We may be both a little nuts...That's exactly how I got Disco. Her breeder repoed her at 8 months. She came with all of her shots, just not spayed because of her dmange...oh and of course lets not forget about _her_ issues.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

A reminder to all of our members: It is just good manners, when you copy and paste, to cite your source.

But we all have Google, so why bother?


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

RonE said:


> A reminder to all of our members: It is just good manners, when you copy and paste, to cite your source.
> 
> But we all have Google, so why bother?


Manners, I love manners....In sociology, manners are the unenforced standards of conduct which show the actor to be cultured, polite, and refined. They are like laws in that they codify or set a standard for human behavior, but they are unlike laws in that there is no formal system for punishing transgressions, other than social disapproval. They are a kind of norm. What is considered "mannerly" is highly susceptible to change with time, geographical location, social stratum, occasion, and other factors. That manners matter is evidenced by the fact that large books have been written on the subject, advice columns frequently deal with questions of mannerly behavior, and that schools have existed for the sole purpose of teaching manners. A lady is a term frequently used for a woman who follows proper manners; the term gentleman is used as a male counterpart; though these terms are also often used for members of a particular social class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manners

Sorry...couldn't help myself!!!11!!!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> Sorry...couldn't help myself!!!11!!!


Oh, I think you could, but you chose not to.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

RonE said:


> Oh, I think you could, but you chose not to.


Right you are, RonE...


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## heidiann (Feb 3, 2008)

Joebas said:


> His name is actually Teddy!!! That picture was taken when he just turned 4 months old and weight in at 55 lbs. He will be 6 months on 2/6 and he shoud be 70 pounds by then.
> 
> The Cockapoo on the left is Lucky and he's the leader of the pack. He's more poodle like while Lucy is more Cocker like(hair wise that is) They have worked out nicely for us so far. They all absolutely love my wife and follow her everywhere all day long.


LOL too funny!! My friend had a Newfie...She was such a gentle dog, so slobbery, but so sweet. 

Beautiful pack you have!


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## Joebas (Dec 23, 2007)

heidiann said:


> LOL too funny!! My friend had a Newfie...She was such a gentle dog, so slobbery, but so sweet.
> 
> Beautiful pack you have!


Thank you and correction, I meant 5 months on 2/6, not 6. And yes, he's a bit slobbery when he drinks water and when he's hungry..... But so darn gentle, more so then my Golden.


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