# Dog nips at new people "only men"



## barkertin (May 7, 2007)

Sup all. My dog has a real problem with new men. Some are just fine, others he just does not like. He nipped my good friend today and another friend from work last week. I just dont get it. Should I introduce him to them outside in a more open area? Its only men. women he loves. He was never abused or beat and is the most loving dog to us. While my friend was here the dog sat right under my legs that whole time as we sat outside and talked. I had my friend give him treats but he was still mean towards him. at one point we had my friend put his hand out and hold it there and the dog was lowly growling and shaking a bit. After about an hour we got up and tryed to get my buddy to throw his toys to him and the dog started to warm up a bit. He was still very cautious. Any ideas why he does this or whatwe can do. We are having a bbq on the 7th and im getting a little nervous. THanks


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

I don't know what "sup all" is so I will just ask a few questions.
How old is your dog and how old was he when you aquired him? Are you a man or a woman? 
Some dogs fear men because men have deeper voices than women and they are intimidated by their voice. Most of the time it isn't because the dog has been abused by a man.
To correct this behavior, you have to correct your dog the instant the dog starts to growl. Don't allow this behavior to escalate and until you get this under control, giving treats is only rewarding this behavior.
If you are nervous around your dog, your dog knows it and 'feeds' on your nervous energy. You must assert calm energy around your dog at all times and be a pack leader.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I just want to ask two more questions, do the men it growls at have hats on and do they have beards?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Or wear sunglasses?

My lab didn't like certain men. He never bit anyone but he scared the crap out of a few total strangers and it took me a while to figure out that they all had cigarettes. He also didn't like tool belts or tripods.

I decided his very abusive original owner was a surveyor who smoked.

Even dogs who have never been abused are sometimes spooked by particular triggers like the ones that Jen mentioned. The sunglasses one is pretty common, too. Dogs like to see your eyes.

If you can identify the trigger(s) you can work to desensitize the dog. A backyard BBQ is probably not the place to do it, though.


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## barkertin (May 7, 2007)

threedognite said:


> I don't know what "sup all" is so I will just ask a few questions.
> How old is your dog and how old was he when you aquired him? Are you a man or a woman?
> Some dogs fear men because men have deeper voices than women and they are intimidated by their voice. Most of the time it isn't because the dog has been abused by a man.
> To correct this behavior, you have to correct your dog the instant the dog starts to growl. Don't allow this behavior to escalate and until you get this under control, giving treats is only rewarding this behavior.
> If you are nervous around your dog, your dog knows it and 'feeds' on your nervous energy. You must assert calm energy around your dog at all times and be a pack leader.



Sup all means whats up everyone lol.
Thanks for all the input you bring up good points.

Im a man, and i have a wife. We have been having a trainer help us since the dog was very dominant over my wife. The training has been going well. 
I have no fear or nervousness around my dog. IM def the dominant one.

My friend who came over was wearing a hat and is a smoker. The smoking is a good point. I remember before he didnt like the smoke smell. He still shouldnt be nipping regardless. I just need to figure out how to stop this right as it starts.

We got him at 4 months old. he was a shelter dog from virginia who was brought to new jersey where we got him at this foster house for dogs. He plays great with other dogs and lives for the play time. 

You think it might be better to introduce him to new people outside in more open surroundings? 

Thanks for the tips so far. I just really want to get an idea of why this happens and how I can correct it. 
Thanks

Chris


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## Zoe's Mom (Jun 16, 2007)

We have a cat that does the same thing. He's a male cat and likes to "play" with men (but isn't always nice). The best thing for him seems to be just keeping him away from men unless he's in a really great mood and then to let him around men for little bits of time. That seems to work pretty well.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

threedognite said:


> Some dogs fear men because men have deeper voices than women and they are intimidated by their voice.


I don't know where you come up with these ideas, but they are entertaining nevertheless. 

One reason why the dog may be intimidated by a deeper voice is if the dog has associated punishment with a deep voice. I can't believe you've never met a trainer with a deep voice, and the dog wasn't intimidated. Maybe because you use voice to intimidate?



> To correct this behavior, you have to correct your dog the instant the dog starts to growl.


I disagree completely! IMO, you should thank the dog for offering a warning. To try and supress this behavior can only ask for trouble. What if your dog offered no warning, but proceeded to bite someone. Would you prefer to have the warning or not? I'll take the warning thank you.



> giving treats is only rewarding this behavior.


This is the problem with learning only from Cesar and Ed...you don't have a complete understanding of the difference between operant and classical conditioning.

In operant conditioning Skinner would say the results of a pleasant outcome will be repeated, and that which results in unpleasant consequences will decrease in frequency. Correcting the dog when it growls will only decrease the frequency of the behavior in your presence. You aren't teaching the dog to be comfortable in the situation by "correction". Skinner is brilliant, and there's a place for aversives, but IMO, it's not on a dog forum for fear aggression. Leave these techniques to the professionals...to which you are not.

In classical conditioning Pavlov would say an animal learns by the association of two events. Do you remember the bell ringing experiment and Pavlov's dog salivating? Bell rings, dog salivates in anticipation of the food reward. You can do the same with a scary person. Scary person enters room, scary person tosses dog a treat, and now when a scary person enters the room it will be a predictor for a treat. What dog fears treats? And if you practiced this over and over with a scary person, what association do you think the dog will have with scary people? 

Too many times I've seen these Cesar wannabes trying to use dominance as an excuse to "correct" a dog for every issue. IMO, this only leads to the dog being unnecessarily corrected/punished. Turn off the TV 3DN, and pick up Jean's book.


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

"Leave these techniques to the professionals...to which you are not."

I don't know what your problem is but you are rude and extremely boorish. I would appreciate it if you would ignore my comments. Forums aren't for people like you to bash and berate other posters. I have already asked you in a private message to stop making nasty and rude comments about my posts. I also told you that I AM a professional dog trainer and just because you don't agree with my training methods doesn't make me a lesser trainer nor does it make YOU a trainer at all.
Thank you.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

threedognite said:


> I don't know what your problem is but you are rude and extremely boorish.


Yet, you read my post, so it must have sparked some interest within you. 



> I would appreciate it if you would ignore my comments. Forums aren't for people like you to bash and berate other posters.


I will not ignore comments that are potentially damaging to the OP. Either be more accurate, or do not give poor advice on a forum. 



> I have already asked you in a private message to stop making nasty and rude comments about my posts.


I'm under no obligation to oblige, nor do I have reason.



> I also told you that I AM a professional dog trainer and just because you don't agree with my training methods doesn't make me a lesser trainer nor does it make YOU a trainer at all.


You can call yourself a professional trainer, but so can my grandmother, and she's never trained a dog in her life. Your training methods are behind the times, and until you catch up, this non-expert dog trainer will continue to comment on your posts.

Here's your first lesson...
Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

In alot of states anyone can call themselves a dog trainer and it is to bad for the dogs as well as the people hiring them. I am wondering if any one knew that in PA they passed a law not to long ago that you had to be certified with proof before you can train? I was told this and was just wondering if anyone else has heard the same?

Curb, you mentioned Cesar! I have to say I do watch the show sometimes and am often worry about the people that are trying what he does. My daughter for one decided to do the bite with her hand on our dog it didn't go like it does with Cesar. She is twenty but felt like a five year old when I got done with her!


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## rpe (Jun 9, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I disagree completely! IMO, you should thank the dog for offering a warning. To try and supress this behavior can only ask for trouble. What if your dog offered no warning, but proceeded to bite someone. Would you prefer to have the warning or not? I'll take the warning thank you.


Don't thank the dog, simply acknowledge the warning then let the dog know its okay and then tell it to stop. If the dog doesn't stop thats the time for the correction. You should always acknowledge what your dog is barking at then let them know if its okay. 

Done properly this doesn't lead to fear aggression. The main thing is to stay relaxed or the dog won't relax. Thats the hardest thing for people to learn. Giving treats can work sometimes but overall it has its own disadvantages especially for the dogs that are not so interested in food.

I'm not a Cesar fan but who is Ed? 

Neither Pavlov or Skinner were dog trainers. Dogs are unique creatures in the way they respond to man. Neither man even began to tap into that.



> Turn off the TV 3DN, and pick up Jean's book.


Jean Donaldson? Skip her book and go learn from a trainer - check out as many different types as you can. Ask questions, watch how the dogs react, talk to other owners. Thats the best way to learn. Take whats useful to you and your dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

rpe said:


> I'm not a Cesar fan but who is Ed?


Ed Frawley of leerburg. 



> Neither Pavlov or Skinner were dog trainers. Dogs are unique creatures in the way they respond to man. Neither man even began to tap into that.


Didn't suggest that, and I was simply giving the principles.



> Jean Donaldson? Skip her book and go learn from a trainer


Ah yes, because reading is a bad thing? How does one know what kind of trainer to find if they don't read up on it in conjunction with any other research? 

Jean would also recommend handling as many dogs as possible. Jean would also recommend gathering your own data. I did not imply that reading takes place of learning by doing.


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## rpe (Jun 9, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Ed Frawley of leerburg.


Oh, THAT guy. LOL



> Ah yes, because reading is a bad thing? How does one know what kind of trainer to find if they don't read up on it in conjunction with any other research?


Reading isn't bad. I've seen some of the results of her work though and it was not very good. To be fair to her though the dogs were really out of her league. 

Before grabbing books I'd go out and observe and see what appeals to you and what works best. You can find all the common sense things online these days. Over the years I've found people get a lot of preconceived notions if they go for the books first. 



> I did not imply that reading takes place of learning by doing.


No you didn't imply that.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

rpe said:


> I've seen some of the results of her work though and it was not very good. To be fair to her though the dogs were really out of her league.


And for every failure, I'm sure I could count 10 successes. She knows her stuff, and much can be learned from her by dog owners.


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## rpe (Jun 9, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> And for every failure, I'm sure I could count 10 successes. She knows her stuff, and much can be learned from her by dog owners.


Some things perhaps. But I'd never recommend her to anyone I know.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

And she's one of many that I do recommend.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

threedognite said:


> I don't know what "sup all" is so I will just ask a few questions.


Popular culture black hole are we?


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

That "guy" (Ed Frawley), Cesar Millan and Martin Deeley are three very successful and experienced dog trainers (CM of course, rehabilitates dogs and is not a trainer).

I find it interesting that people who are NOT successful like to bash those who are. That's nothing but envy and jealousy. 
Curbside Prophet, your arrogance will get the best of you some day and I hope IF and when you become a trainer you don't respond to your clients the way you respond to other posters here. I think you enjoy bashing others and that is very unprofessional and childish. I suspect you are young and have a huge ego.

Tcasby,
As for your comment, "Popular culture black hole are we?" 
Color has nothing to do with using slang. People of all races probably use this lazy 'language'.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

barkertin said:


> Sup all. My dog has a real problem with new men. Some are just fine, others he just does not like. He nipped my good friend today and another friend from work last week. I just dont get it. Should I introduce him to them outside in a more open area? Its only men. women he loves. He was never abused or beat and is the most loving dog to us. While my friend was here the dog sat right under my legs that whole time as we sat outside and talked. I had my friend give him treats but he was still mean towards him. at one point we had my friend put his hand out and hold it there and the dog was lowly growling and shaking a bit. After about an hour we got up and tryed to get my buddy to throw his toys to him and the dog started to warm up a bit. He was still very cautious. Any ideas why he does this or whatwe can do. We are having a bbq on the 7th and im getting a little nervous. THanks


Pick yourself up the book called "The Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell - It's about 7 bucks from Dogwise.com and it will lead you step by step through desensitizing your dog to strangers. Until you get that book - don't allow anyone to approach your dog and don't force him to meet people. You are going to only stress the dog out even more if you push the issue. In fact it would be best if your guests completely ignored the dog all together, no eye contact, no hello, NADA. By doing this you are taking the pressure off of the dog. 
Tell me - what does your dog do when someone new enters the house? What do you do? What do the guests do?



threedognite said:


> "Popular culture black hole are we?"
> Color has nothing to do with using slang. People of all races probably use this lazy 'language'.


You entirely missed the point...Popular Culture + You = Black Hole...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_holes


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

threedognite said:


> Curbside Prophet, your arrogance will get the best of you some day and I hope IF and when you become a trainer you don't respond to your clients the way you respond to other posters here. I think you enjoy bashing others and that is very unprofessional and childish. I suspect you are young and have a huge ego.


My "arrogance" and "bashing" are merely a reflection of ignorance *I* deem potentially harmful to the OP. You may interpret that any way you like. However, I'd prefer a thourogh education from people that are selp proclaimed *trainers*, though I suspect I shouldn't hold my with you. If I'm missing a valuable point, please make it known. Otherwise, expect to be challenged when you dole out aversive techniques. Because the fact is, the start of dominance theory is the beginning of the flight path for the dog ending up in a shelter. So much is blamed on the dog when the trainer/owner/handler is the one to blame for misplacing techniques. And shocking a dog while it's in its crate is one of them.


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## barkertin (May 7, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Pick yourself up the book called "The Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell - It's about 7 bucks from Dogwise.com and it will lead you step by step through desensitizing your dog to strangers. Until you get that book - don't allow anyone to approach your dog and don't force him to meet people. You are going to only stress the dog out even more if you push the issue. In fact it would be best if your guests completely ignored the dog all together, no eye contact, no hello, NADA. By doing this you are taking the pressure off of the dog.
> Tell me - what does your dog do when someone new enters the house? What do you do? What do the guests do?
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. Never thought about the ignoring. good idea. You can read a bit more here http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/10843-dog-just-hates-certain.html
since this happened this weekend. Its very strange only certain people. Ive done the same things with different people coming in and it seems the dog just goes right on defense with certain men. I dunno. Ill have to try the ignore thing.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Hmm...it may be time to call in a behaviorist - not a dog trainer, but a professional degreed in animal behavior modification. Do your homework, though, seems anyone can call themselves an expert in dog behavior. You also want to look for one who uses positive reinforcement.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

threedognite said:


> That "guy" (Ed Frawley), Cesar Millan and Martin Deeley are three very successful and experienced dog trainers (CM of course, rehabilitates dogs and is not a trainer).
> 
> I find it interesting that people who are NOT successful like to bash those who are. That's nothing but envy and jealousy.
> Curbside Prophet, your arrogance will get the best of you some day and I hope IF and when you become a trainer you don't respond to your clients the way you respond to other posters here. I think you enjoy bashing others and that is very unprofessional and childish. I suspect you are young and have a huge ego.
> ...


I think you have not even been a trainer for long if you have even been a trainer. Cesar might be good at what he does but do you realize how many people get bit trying to do what he does? Not good and numerous hospitals are getting business. If Curb was a trainer I would call him in a second if you read what he writes you would know he has experience and I don't ever remember him stating he was a trainer.


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