# Expensive dog foods may be a waste of money



## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

And of course it's a VET talking and not a nutritionist
Lol i just felt like sharing thought it was a bit ridiculous


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Did you remove whatever it was?


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Apparently by products are now a good thing... Oi.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> Did you remove whatever it was?


What do you mean? There should be a video there can you not see it?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I can never see videos, on my phone or laptop. I don't know if I pressed a thing or what. 

Anyway, not seeing the video, my thoughts. . .yeah, price is obviously no indicator of quality. Hill's and Pro Plan are quite expensive. 

I don't have a problem with "fresh" by-products (not meal) in a canned food, because by-products are fine nutritious parts of the animal that any raw feeder would love to buy (kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc.). But by-product *meal* is rendered and therefore allowed to contain parts from 4D animals, and that just seems like a bad risk to me. 

Many larger name brands have very good vitamin/mineral premixes, so it is possible for a dog to do better on a big-name brand with mediocre ingredients than on a smaller brand with better ingredients, just because of vitamin quality. But I think a lot of the smaller brands are doing pretty well on that front. 

Meat-flavored cereal (kibble) can be a fine part of the diet, but, just like for humans, eating only cereal all the time is just not healthy (even Total ). You need a good fresh meal at least now and then. 

I should make a video!


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

for those who can't see the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4SHocVk--MQ


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

my reaction, as told to my boyfriend:

how about i keep buying a species appropriate diet (or as close as i can get) instead of feeding my dogs corn
yesterday i was thinking like
how can someone look at the ingredients on most dog food and think "this is a great food for my dog"
i was like
picturing them putting a bunch of rotten meat scraps and a pile of ground corn on a plate and giving it to their dog
and thinking no one would DO that but that's exactly what they are doing


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> What do you mean? There should be a video there can you not see it?


I'm on my iPad; I'll check later on my computer.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

This vet does not have a clue!!!! Of course I must admit dogs of the olden days probably lived as long as they do now---don't you think? Ours lived till they were 15 or so back in the 60's 70's. They all got Purina it was the only choices we had. We never gave it a thought.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

It's obvious that this video is rubbish, but it did make me question if I'm feeding too much protein. 

Is this possible? Moose doesn't have a job, and he gets a decent amount of protein. Can it have a negative effect on him if protein is too high? Such thing as too much protein? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Kayota said:


> my reaction, as told to my boyfriend:
> 
> how about i keep buying a species appropriate diet (or as close as i can get) instead of feeding my dogs corn
> yesterday i was thinking like
> ...


That sounds how dogs evolved actually, eating rotten scraps from human settlements. Did you know that every wolf in the US Government's wolf rescue program for Red Wolves and the Mexican Wolf eat 100% dry dog food, from Pro Plan to Blue Wilderness. I have spoken to some of these organizations and they say the wolves do better on dry dog food and are able to reproduced better. If you don't believe me you can ask US Fish & Wildlife yourself.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

BubbaMoose, I am not an expert on the subject but many on here are chemists when it comes to dog food. I wonder this as well. I hope I am not doing to much protein as well.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

BubbaMoose said:


> It's obvious that this video is rubbish, but it did make me question if I'm feeding too much protein.
> Is this possible? Moose doesn't have a job, and he gets a decent amount of protein. Can it have a negative effect on him if protein is too high? Such thing as too much protein?


My vet said that unless the dog has existing kidney problems, that high protein is just fine. I had specifically asked about a mix of high protein dog foods and raw where the dog food was ~36% protein and the raw was chicken and beef (not fish). I don't see any reason that any of the dog food formulas on the market would be too high for a healthy dog.

My opinion is that excluding food which is so low quality as to contain potentially dangerous ingredients and/or completely unneeded additives (like artificial food coloring) that people should feed what works best for THEIR dog. Some dogs do amazing on a grain free, high protein. You can see it in their skin, coat, lean muscle and clear eyes and ears. Other dogs have digestive upsets on that same food but do well on a basic chicken and rice kibble. 

In general, I have found that dogs do better on a higher protein food (like 30-36%) with moderate fat and without corn or artificial colors. I do feed both grain inclusive and grain free along with raw, SOME dogs do not do well on the grain inclusive but if the ingredients are good and the source quality is good, I don't have an issue with grains in and of themselves.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I can never see videos, on my phone or laptop. I don't know if I pressed a thing or what.
> 
> Anyway, not seeing the video, my thoughts. . .yeah, price is obviously no indicator of quality. Hill's and Pro Plan are quite expensive.
> 
> ...


Your are not correct about fresh by-products vs by-product meal. Technically they both can included condemned animals or meat products. Don't assume all canning facilities are the same.


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## shannylee (Aug 8, 2013)

Shell said:


> My vet said that unless the dog has existing kidney problems, that high protein is just fine. I had specifically asked about a mix of high protein dog foods and raw where the dog food was ~36% protein and the raw was chicken and beef (not fish). I don't see any reason that any of the dog food formulas on the market would be too high for a healthy dog.
> 
> My opinion is that excluding food which is so low quality as to contain potentially dangerous ingredients and/or completely unneeded additives (like artificial food coloring) that people should feed what works best for THEIR dog. Some dogs do amazing on a grain free, high protein. You can see it in their skin, coat, lean muscle and clear eyes and ears. Other dogs have digestive upsets on that same food but do well on a basic chicken and rice kibble.
> 
> In general, I have found that dogs do better on a higher protein food (like 30-36%) with moderate fat and without corn or artificial colors. I do feed both grain inclusive and grain free along with raw, SOME dogs do not do well on the grain inclusive but if the ingredients are good and the source quality is good, I don't have an issue with grains in and of themselves.


Thank you because I was wondering the same thing about the protein.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Bumper1 said:


> That sounds how dogs evolved actually, eating rotten scraps from human settlements. Did you know that every wolf in the US Government's wolf rescue program for Red Wolves and the Mexican Wolf eat 100% dry dog food, from Pro Plan to Blue Wilderness. I have spoken to some of these organizations and they say the wolves do better on dry dog food and are able to reproduced better. If you don't believe me you can ask US Fish & Wildlife yourself.


That's very true. They also ate human feces so maybe we should add some of that on top of their kibble. They're scavengers. They ate what was easy for them to get a hold of. Doesn't necessarily make it healthy. 

There are wolf reserves that feed whole deer and their wolves look great as well.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Bumper1 said:


> That sounds how dogs evolved actually, eating rotten scraps from human settlements. Did you know that every wolf in the US Government's wolf rescue program for Red Wolves and the Mexican Wolf eat 100% dry dog food, from Pro Plan to Blue Wilderness. I have spoken to some of these organizations and they say the wolves do better on dry dog food and are able to reproduced better. If you don't believe me you can ask US Fish & Wildlife yourself.


 i find this odd considering when purchasing a wolf or a wolf-dog from a breeder, it's required that you feed raw meat or high protein dog food(most seem to prefer raw), It seems they will not give you a cub if you plan on feeding it food with corn or soy as it's very hard for them to digest


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Bumper1 said:


> Your are not correct about fresh by-products vs by-product meal. Technically they both can included condemned animals or meat products. Don't assume all canning facilities are the same.


Do you have a quote from the USDA handbook? As I read it, only rendered ingredients may contain 4D animals (under the assumption that the high heat of rendering kills the nasties). It has nothing to do with the canning facility---the ingredients come from the rendering plant and the slaughterhouse, and are categorized at those locations. There is a possibility of any meat ingredient containing denatured meat, though :/.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Benjismom said:


> This vet does not have a clue!!!! Of course I must admit dogs of the olden days probably lived as long as they do now---don't you think? Ours lived till they were 15 or so back in the 60's 70's. They all got Purina it was the only choices we had. We never gave it a thought.


It's my opinion that dog foods used to have higher-quality ingredients. Nowadays, almost all scraps of the human food industry are recycled back into human food (mechanically separated chicken, "pink slime", various grain products. . .), so the remaining scraps are pretty slim pickings. Back then, there was (because they had no way to get more of it off) more actual meat on a carcass, less processed grain products, etc. But there's also some memory bias too .


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Benjismom said:


> This vet does not have a clue!!!! Of course I must admit dogs of the olden days probably lived as long as they do now---don't you think? Ours lived till they were 15 or so back in the 60's 70's. They all got Purina it was the only choices we had. We never gave it a thought.


My aunt was just talking about this today. She said when she was younger families never took their dogs to the vet. She said something about how they would give a sick dog some whiskey and an aspirin and hope for the best. The only way I could see olden day dogs living just as long is because the environment wasn't as polluted. Cancer probably want as common. Reasons like that. I'm not sure the crappy food or poor health care had anything to do with that.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> i find this odd considering when purchasing a wolf or a wolf-dog from a breeder, it's required that you feed raw meat or high protein dog food(most seem to prefer raw), It seems they will not give you a cub if you plan on feeding it food with corn or soy as it's very hard for them to digest


It doesn't surprise me that a governmental agency feeds regular dry dog food. It would be easy to source under a government contact (that can then supply all their locations), is affordable, and is easy to feed and is consistent quality. From what I understand, they typically feed dry dog food until they start to introduce native game in the process of preparing for re-introduction into the wild.

What I would question is this:


> have spoken to some of these organizations and they say the wolves do better on dry dog food and are able to reproduced better.


Better compared to what? Their diet in the wild which may have periods of famine, may be limited in nutrition etc? An unbalanced raw diet? Or a balanced raw diet of species specific prey?
Same with reproducing "better"-- better than in the wild with all it's dangers? Better than in a facility where they may be stressed? (After all, many captive animals don't breed well and it isn't diet but living conditions)


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> i find this odd considering when purchasing a wolf or a wolf-dog from a breeder, it's required that you feed raw meat or high protein dog food(most seem to prefer raw), It seems they will not give you a cub if you plan on feeding it food with corn or soy as it's very hard for them to digest


It is 100% true. In fact a facility cannot be approved to care for red wolves and mexican gray wolves under the rescue programs unless they feed 100% dry dog food to those animals. There is an approved list of foods.

Other facilities will often feed 50% dry food so that the wolves don't suffer vitamin or mineral deficiencies. It is a myth that wolves can't digest carbohydrates, they can but their pancreas takes longer to adjust.

One facility I spoke to which is known globally told me that their grey wolves outside the program are doing better since they started offering dry dog food. I had always suspected this was the case because wild wolves suffer many diet related problems. They also get ivermectin once a month and either Frontline or Advantix.

High protein is considered 26% crude protein and higher for captive wolves. Pro Plan Performance is a very popular choice.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well... expensive dog foods actually MAY be a waste of money for some dogs.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

What did I just watch :|


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

xoxluvablexox said:


> My aunt was just talking about this today. She said when she was younger families never took their dogs to the vet. She said something about how they would give a sick dog some whiskey and an aspirin and hope for the best. The only way I could see olden day dogs living just as long is because the environment wasn't as polluted. Cancer probably want as common. Reasons like that. I'm not sure the crappy food or poor health care had anything to do with that.


We took our dog to the vet in 60's 70's. We were just not obsessed with dog food. Not at all never gave it a second thought. All of this talk on these threads about no corn wheat or soy products fillers I rarely ever see a dog food anymore that says it has it in it--every single dog food boasts today of being grain free,"No fillers" etc. it is hard to even find one that says anything else. Maybe Beneful. that is about it.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Benjismom said:


> We took our dog to the vet in 60's 70's. We were just not obsessed with dog food. Not at all never gave it a second thought. All of this talk on these threads about no corn wheat or soy products fillers I rarely ever see a dog food anymore that says it has it in it--every single dog food boasts today of being grain free,"No fillers" etc. it is hard to even find one that says anything else. Maybe Beneful. that is about it.


Are you serious? i don't know where you live but all i have to do is walk into a grocery store and 90% of the food will not be grain free have tons of dyes corn,wheat,ect Pedigree, Iams, Kibbles& Bits there are TONS of options


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Benjismom said:


> We took our dog to the vet in 60's 70's. We were just not obsessed with dog food. Not at all never gave it a second thought. All of this talk on these threads about no corn wheat or soy products fillers I rarely ever see a dog food anymore that says it has it in it--every single dog food boasts today of being grain free,"No fillers" etc. it is hard to even find one that says anything else. Maybe Beneful. that is about it.


Yeah I'm not exactly sure if that was in the 60s and 70s. She's in her 90s now and this was when she was a kid. So probably going back further then that lol. She's not really an aunt, close family friend so we call her aunt. Just to clear up any confusion since that would make me a lot older if she was really my aunt by blood...

As for the dog food thing... Pretty much what Adjecyca1 said. It's hard to find good dog food at superstores and such. Petco has a pretty good "natural" food section now.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Aside from if an animal is obviously doing poorly on a diet, why would anyone honestly care how cheap or how expensive the food is that they feed their dog? Is it really a waste of my money if I want to spend $18.99 for a 5lb bag of Acana if my dogs like it and they look and feel great on it? Maybe I could deal with something cheaper, but what I feed them and how much it costs me certainly isn't hurting them. Their vet reports are always glowing. 

The 18-20% protein levels sounded ridiculously low to me. I went to DogFood Advisor and, they either have incorrect protein levels on like all their foods, or something but the foods I skimmed, most contained at least 21% protein. I think Ol' Roy and Kibbles N Bits maybe had 19%. I'm wondering what that vet feeds her dog at 18-20% protein. 

Either way, different dogs do differently on different diets. End of story. There's never going to be a one size fits all food that all dogs will thrive on.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Bumper1 said:


> It is 100% true. In fact a facility cannot be approved to care for red wolves and mexican gray wolves under the rescue programs unless they feed 100% dry dog food to those animals. There is an approved list of foods.
> 
> Other facilities will often feed 50% dry food so that the wolves don't suffer vitamin or mineral deficiencies. It is a myth that wolves can't digest carbohydrates, they can but their pancreas takes longer to adjust.
> 
> ...


Post some links.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Well... expensive dog foods actually MAY be a waste of money for some dogs.


Can you elaborate on that?

Bumper--If I remember I will call the wolf sanctuary I visited tomorrow and ask them what they feed their animals. I can guarantee you it won't be crap dog food. You are really bent on convincing us that grain-filled crap is good for dogs, aren't you?


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## fresca (May 20, 2012)

Well Wolf Haven International feeds a whole prey model diet to their red and Mexican gray wolves. And they ARE part of a federal recovery program. So i am guessing feeding crap kibble is not a requirement.

http://www.wolfhaven.org/FAQs.php


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

fresca said:


> Well Wolf Haven International feeds a whole prey model diet to their red and Mexican gray wolves. And they ARE part of a federal recovery program. So i am guessing feeding crap kibble is not a requirement.
> 
> http://www.wolfhaven.org/FAQs.php


It is right on the website...SSP animals are fed dry dog food...you should learn to read.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Kayota said:


> Can you elaborate on that?
> 
> Bumper--If I remember I will call the wolf sanctuary I visited tomorrow and ask them what they feed their animals. I can guarantee you it won't be crap dog food. You are really bent on convincing us that grain-filled crap is good for dogs, aren't you?


You can call them all, and visit them all. You will learn a lot.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I feed a mix of foods: raw, dehydrated, canned & kibble. Some are expensive, such as the raws & THK Zeal and some a little cheaper. They work for my dogs so it's not a waste. A waste is all the grain inclusive foods I've seen that they charge alot of money for (some of the Pro Plans, Purina ONE, an Iams I recently saw), I looked at the price, the ingredients and thought, people pay that kind of money for that? I shake my head.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

zhaor said:


> Post some links.


"7.2 Captive Diet: Feeding requirements of red wolves have generally not been a problem in the RWSSP, 
as long as good quality commercial (dry) dog food is provided. Because of the number of commercial 
foods made, their availability, and cost it is difficult to recommend a specific brand. Wolves maintained in 
Tacoma have done well on food with label guarantees ranging from 22-28% protein, 8-18% fat, and 2-4% 
fiber. Vitamin supplements for red wolves are normally not required. Adding commercial carnivore log to 
dry chow may be needed to encourage some wolves to eat, although should not be the primary component 
of their feed."

This is from the Special Survival Plan guidelines on feeding SSP Red Wolves. A 22 - 28% protein food with 8 - 18% fat is a normal maintenance food with as much as 50% carbohydrate. Like I said Pro Plan Performance is a very popular choice but I know that others are used including Blue Wilderness.

I don't know why people get all excited about wolves eating dry dog food. Seems logical to me.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Can you elaborate on that?


Well I've explained my opinions about feeding dogs pretty thoroughly multiple times on these forums so I'm not interested in writing another treatise on the issue, but essentially: No one can really prove that what some humans' _opinion_ of what constitutes a "better" diet for dogs is actually superior across the board for dogs with a capital D, and different individuals may do better or worse on different diets regardless of our human opinions of those diets. 

So for some dogs, yes, a more expensive diet _may_ be a waste of money.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Bumper1 said:


> "7.2 Captive Diet: Feeding requirements of red wolves have generally not been a problem in the RWSSP,
> as long as good quality commercial (dry) dog food is provided. Because of the number of commercial
> foods made, their availability, and cost it is difficult to recommend a specific brand. Wolves maintained in
> Tacoma have done well on food with label guarantees ranging from 22-28% protein, 8-18% fat, and 2-4%
> ...


It seems logical to me also for wolves in that specific program. That doesn't mean that it is the best possible diet for captive wolves. Doesn't mean they cannot do well on dry food, just that the reasoning for the dry diet has more to it.

The explanation from Wolf Haven makes sense 


> Feeding Species Survival Plan (SSP) Wolves
> 
> Keep in mind the SSP animals (red wolves and Mexican gray wolves) are on a MUCH different diet: The SSP animals are fed kibble, with approved supplements (mainly roadkill). The reason the SSP animals are fed kibble is so ALL the facilities in the programs can maintain on the same diet. This removes the need for animals to get re-adjusted to a diet at a new facility if they get transferred. It also prevents potential pre-release animals from developing a taste for farm or ranch animals.


Wolves being released are weaned onto an all-meat diet before hand.

Their non-SSP wolves are fed prey model raw.

What I'd be interested to see would be a comprehensive study comparing the wolves on the dry food diet under the SSP versus wolves on a prey model diet also in captivity (preferably among multiple facilities that have both groups so help reduce non-diet influences like habitat and human contact). Looking at reproduction success, signs of stress, blood tests and such.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> It is right on the website...SSP animals are fed dry dog food...you should learn to read.


"As mentioned above, most of our animals are maintained on a bi-weekly feeding, one of which is a beef feed and the other is chicken. The chicken feedings consists of whole, human grade chicken which includes all the internal organs of the chicken. The beef includes muscle tissue and any of the cow’s internal organs. On average, we feed 800 lbs. of meat per week (not including treats or pilling media), though this is subject to seasonal change. During the winter their feeding allotments are approximately 12.5 lbs. per animal to compensate for the extra calories burned to maintain their core temperature. Spring and fall feeding allotments are approximately 10 lbs. per animal. During the summer months appetites tend to wane, so portions may be further reduced. However, portions are based on individual dietary needs. The amount we feed is also subject to population density. "

Is that what you were talking about...?


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Adjecycal, I have never really looked at grocery store dog food to be honest with you. I know Purina boasts and touts grain free--all bags say no fillers no corn no wheat. Even the dog food such as Science Diet who the vets have for years told people to purchase is grain free etc.etc. It is all over the bags and there new one "ideal balance." All companies have jumped on the bag wagon and capitalized on the grain free feeding approach and those who have not are probably not going to be doing very well financially. Grain free is not about money spent on dog food it is about the welfare of the dog and what is best. I have a friend who is an acquaintance and the subject came up of dog food in a group setting. She is a very nice person. She said she feeds her dog "Beneful." She asked me about it and I did not want to say "I think it is not good." Most people do not know. I told her to research it on line. I see negative replies about beneful and when I was in store I purposely looked at ingredients and it was not good. Fillers etc.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I feed grain free and rotate through a handful of high quality feeds. Every time I go buy food, I drop a few hundred dollars and think "my dog growing up was fed Purina and lived to be 16 years old" I think that some people go overboard on dog food but I guess I feel like I want to do the best I can for my dogs and feeding them crap food just to save a buck seems wrong to me. If I love them, I want the best for them, right? Maybe I should let them back on the bed then... Um, no I sleep better now that I have kicked them off the bed. I guess I will keep them on the good food to balance that abuse out.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Inga. This is what I was saying as a kid our dogs when I was growing up all got Purina with a can of Alpo and gravy mixed in sometimes. No one read the ingredients or gave it a second thought. They did fine. My Mother ate raw hamburger sandwiches, and smoked a pack a day till 90 years old and she hated greens especially Brocoli. Go figure. who really knows genetics probably play more into a dogs longevity then the food we feed as with people as well and what we do or don't do.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Benjismom said:


> I know Purina boasts and touts grain free--all bags say no fillers no corn no wheat. Even the dog food such as Science Diet who the vets have for years told people to purchase is grain free etc.etc. It is all over the bags and there new one "ideal balance."


Purina doesn't have a grain-free food (yet. I'm sure they'll jump in soon), and if they say corn-free and wheat-free they're lying . Scince Diet's only grain-free food is Ideal Balance---the rest have plenty of corn and wheat.



> Keep in mind the SSP animals (red wolves and Mexican gray wolves) are on a MUCH different diet: The SSP animals are fed kibble, *with approved supplements (mainly roadkill)*. The reason the SSP animals are fed kibble is so ALL the facilities in the programs can maintain on the same diet. This removes the need for animals to get re-adjusted to a diet at a new facility if they get transferred. It also prevents potential pre-release animals from developing a taste for farm or ranch animals.


Yep, that totally sounds like "100% kibble" .


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Willowy,

Purina Pro is all grain free.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Benjismom said:


> Willowy,
> 
> Purina Pro is all grain free.


I just looked up the ingredients, and presuming you're referring to Pro plan, no it isn't. The 2nd ingredient is rice and the third is wheat, the sixth is corn.


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## Sena Hansler (Jun 26, 2012)

The expensive foods we have here... There's no real meat. And a lot of them contain corn or wheat as the first ingredient. Then the vets are paid to recommend Iams (which for some of you Iams works for you, congrats on that but all 5 dogs throughout the family have had bad results with it!). 

The brand I get, is a cheaper one. Not the cheapest, but it is not expensive either! My parents use it for their dogs, one of which has an intolerance to wheat and corn. The one I have excludes: corn, wheat, soy, by products or artificial preservatives (or dyes!). A fancier one I grabbed before (after standing there with my eyes glazed over looking at all 20 different brands, all which seemed to compare to each other in how crappy the quality was) had by-products, corn and wheat. And was made for active large breed dogs. For 20.00 for a small bag. Compared to what I now have... 20.00 for a medium bag.

Plus with her known breeds (mixed!) she will also be getting some of the raw foods that will be beneficial to her diet, from the only pet store I'd buy it from... Great for treats too!


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Purina and science diet just knew they were loosing money so put another version out there, but their original brands are still very popular, and I'm pretty sure Purina owns beneful and some other dog foods that are not grain free..


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I don't think expensive = good and cheap = bad, I think there is a bit of a correlation between the two but there are outliers in either direction. One thing to consider though isn't just the formula of ingredients but the source of the ingredients and the reputation of the company. For example, I'd rather feed an all US-sourced grain inclusive than raw rabbit sourced from China. Or feed a mid-range food from a company that handles recalls well (even human food gets recalled pretty often actually) than a "better" food from a company that regularly botches recalls. 

I can find chicken and rice based food with no corn, wheat or soy and mid-range protein for easily 30% less cost per pound than some dry foods based heavily on corn and corn gluten. I try to keep the fosters on a reasonably priced food so that whoever adopts them can have the option of continuing the quite affordable but still good food, or moving up to something they've selected based on their finances. 
However, every single one of the fosters has had noticeable improvement when switched away from the "big name" cheapo foods like Beneful, Pedigree, and Purina (and I don't just mean the ones coming from a shelter situation where there is likely to be other stronger influences on their health than just food).

It's all about knowing your dog and seeing where the cost increase equals better signs of health and where it doesn't really do anything.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Well I've explained my opinions about feeding dogs pretty thoroughly multiple times on these forums so I'm not interested in writing another treatise on the issue, but essentially: No one can really prove that what some humans' _opinion_ of what constitutes a "better" diet for dogs is actually superior across the board for dogs with a capital D, and different individuals may do better or worse on different diets regardless of our human opinions of those diets.
> 
> So for some dogs, yes, a more expensive diet _may_ be a waste of money.


I can agree with that view. Hence why Roxie is going to keep getting grain inclusive food; she does absolutely fine on it. Whereas Faxon gets soft and smelly poops and a gross feeling coat. Both dogs' kibbles are relatively cheap... Pure Balance is good and inexpensive. I see no need to shell out money for Blue Buffalo and Solid Gold any more.

However, at the same time, I think about how much nutrition is baked out of kibble and think that dehydrated and raw food companies have the right idea. It's the price that gets me.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> "As mentioned above, most of our animals are maintained on a bi-weekly feeding, one of which is a beef feed and the other is chicken. The chicken feedings consists of whole, human grade chicken which includes all the internal organs of the chicken. The beef includes muscle tissue and any of the cow’s internal organs. On average, we feed 800 lbs. of meat per week (not including treats or pilling media), though this is subject to seasonal change. During the winter their feeding allotments are approximately 12.5 lbs. per animal to compensate for the extra calories burned to maintain their core temperature. Spring and fall feeding allotments are approximately 10 lbs. per animal. During the summer months appetites tend to wane, so portions may be further reduced. However, portions are based on individual dietary needs. The amount we feed is also subject to population density. "
> 
> Is that what you were talking about...?


No, this is what I was referring to. Pretty clear as crystal compared to what I stated. This covers both Red and Mexican Grey wolves.

_"The animals that are part of the SSP program are managed very differently from the other residents at Wolf Haven. The SSP animals are managed strictly hands off, the reason being is so that they don’t become accustomed to human interaction. Socialization would not be conducive to the goals of the program, although we are required to enter their enclosures on a daily basis for fecal clean-up. With the Mexican wolves that are slated for release it is imperative that these animals do not become habituated to the presence of humans. Occasionally, some individuals who exhibit interest in their caretakers must be aversively conditioned to reinforce their innate wariness of people. All program animals are also maintained on a different diet and feeding regimen than our permanent residents. Rather than bi-weekly chicken and beef feedings they are maintained daily on high quality dry kibble.

Our pre-release wolves are maintained on the same dry food formula, however, they are fed larger quantities less frequently to minimize human presence. In addition to the dry food they are also given road-killed deer and elk carcasses. If fed a carcass, they are then fasted for a number of days depending upon the size of the carcass. In 2007, Wolf Haven installed remote viewing cameras in the enclosures that house our off-tour animals. The purpose of the cameras are to obtain visuals on the wolves without having to physically enter their enclosure, this mitigates stress on the animals and once again reduces the amount of human presence around the animals. Another reason why we utilize the cameras is so we witness behavior that is unaltered by the presence of humans in close proximity to the wolves. The behavior that we witness could be classified as natural behavior (even though they are in a captive setting)."

_


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Shell said:


> It seems logical to me also for wolves in that specific program. That doesn't mean that it is the best possible diet for captive wolves. Doesn't mean they cannot do well on dry food, just that the reasoning for the dry diet has more to it.
> 
> The explanation from Wolf Haven makes sense
> 
> ...





Bumper1 said:


> No, this is what I was referring to. Pretty clear as crystal compared to what I stated. This covers both Red and Mexican Grey wolves.
> 
> _"The animals that are part of the SSP program are managed very differently from the other residents at Wolf Haven. The SSP animals are managed strictly hands off, the reason being is so that they don’t become accustomed to human interaction. Socialization would not be conducive to the goals of the program, although we are required to enter their enclosures on a daily basis for fecal clean-up. With the Mexican wolves that are slated for release it is imperative that these animals do not become habituated to the presence of humans. Occasionally, some individuals who exhibit interest in their caretakers must be aversively conditioned to reinforce their innate wariness of people. All program animals are also maintained on a different diet and feeding regimen than our permanent residents. Rather than bi-weekly chicken and beef feedings they are maintained daily on high quality dry kibble.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I didn't dig very deep on it beyond the "what do we feed our wolves". That said, Shell's explanation makes much more sense to me than thinking the wolves are better off on dry dog food.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If the SSP wolves did so much better on kibble, why wouldn't they feed ALL their wolves that way? It would be cheaper too. Not wanting the wolves that will be released to get used to eating cows and sheep and chickens (well, recognizable meat from those species. Of course kibbles are made from those meats) makes a lot more sense.

And yeah, Pro Plan is chock full o' grains.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Willowy,

not sure why I am involved with the conversation I do not feed my dog Purina never have and never will so it makes not a hill of beans difference to me if there food has grain or not. I only know what the web site says and perhaps we are speaking of different web sites or else they say it is grain free and they r not telling the truth. Whatever----all I know is what they claim. I feed my dog Annamaet no grain low fat chicken mixed with home cooked meals that are full of Nutrients. Yes Benefull is made by Purina. I know it has corn wheat by products. People who feed that to there dogs do not usually know any better.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Benjismom said:


> Willowy,
> 
> not sure why I am involved with the conversation I do not feed my dog Purina never have and never will so it makes not a hill of beans difference to me if there food has grain or not. I only know what the web site says and perhaps we are speaking of different web sites or else they say it is grain free and they r not telling the truth. Whatever----all I know is what they claim. I feed my dog Annamaet no grain low fat chicken mixed with home cooked meals that are full of Nutrients. Yes Benefull is made by Purina. I know it has corn wheat by products. People who feed that to there dogs do not usually know any better.


Could you link where you are seeing them claim it is grain free? False claims like that could be very bad for dogs who have allergies. It was on their website earlier where I pulled the ingredients from and I didn't come across anything claiming any of their foods were grain free.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

http://www.proplan.com/dry-dog-food/select-adult-grain-free-formula/

DOES this not SAY GRAIN FREE???


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Benjismom said:


> http://www.proplan.com/dry-dog-food/select-adult-grain-free-formula/
> 
> DOES this not SAY GRAIN FREE???


I just found that, took me long enough, lol. MIght be grainfree but crappy ingredient list, IMO.

I don't ever look at Purina but they have a crap load of foods.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh wow, must be a new formula. But yeah, that's as bad as Hills' attempt at a grain-free . 

I didn't mean to drag you into the conversation, Benjismom, I was only commenting that I have never seen a Purina food claim to be grain-free. I guess now I have .

Purina probably manufactures half the pet foods on the market, LOL. I think they bought Alpo and I know they bought Friskies. P&G owns the other half .


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Benjismom said:


> http://www.proplan.com/dry-dog-food/select-adult-grain-free-formula/
> 
> DOES this not SAY GRAIN FREE???


First of all, calm down.

This is where I was looking; http://www.purina.ca/products/dogs/pro-plan/pro-plan-adult/default.aspx

So bizarre that the grain free formula isn't even listed on the main Purina website, you'd think they'd want to promote it more.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

No Problem but the ingredients still are not that good. I know many police dogs are on this and people who own horses in my area feed Purina products--my Vet recommended Ideal Balance for my dog a Hills product. I think Ideal Balance is a real step up for Hills. I will stick with my Annamaet. If you go to one page it lists all the foods Purina makes. Quite a few. Most people feel they are tried and true. My Vet says that Hills has never had a recall and there food is tested for years on a variety of dogs. She also recommended Wellness.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I've fed Annamaet; one dog ate the Aqualuk, the other Encore. Great food, great company.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Bumper1 said:


> That sounds how dogs evolved actually, eating rotten scraps from human settlements. Did you know that every wolf in the US Government's wolf rescue program for Red Wolves and the Mexican Wolf eat 100% dry dog food, from Pro Plan to Blue Wilderness. I have spoken to some of these organizations and they say the wolves do better on dry dog food and are able to reproduced better. If you don't believe me you can ask US Fish & Wildlife yourself.


I have a bunch of pictures of captive Mexican wolves eating whole rabbits... The facility is part of the captive breeding program for the wolves. They are fed partial kibble diets but are also supplemented with prey. I will find the photos when I get home.

ETA: A different program than you are talking about, I'm sure but the facility is on this list: http://www.mexicanwolves.org/index.php/wolf-exhibits


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Ireth0,

I am "calmed down." Just making a point I certainly know what I read and if you choose to believe otherwise fine--I really do not care as it is of no concern to me anyway as I stated before. If you choose to be misinformed so be it--


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## fresca (May 20, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> It is right on the website...SSP animals are fed dry dog food...you should learn to read.



Well his is what I read. A direct quote from their site:



"4.What and how much do you feed the animals?

As mentioned above, most of our animals are maintained on a bi-weekly feeding, one of which is a beef feed and the other is chicken. The chicken feedings consists of whole, human grade chicken which includes all the internal organs of the chicken.* The beef includes muscle tissue and any of the cow’s internal organs.* On average, we feed 800 lbs. of meat per week (not including treats or pilling media), though this is subject to seasonal change.* During the winter their feeding allotments are approximately 12.5 lbs. per animal to compensate for the extra calories burned to maintain their core temperature.* Spring and fall feeding allotments are approximately 10 lbs. per animal.* During the summer months appetites tend to wane, so portions may be further reduced.* However, portions are based on individual dietary needs.* The amount we feed is also subject to population density."

And maybe you should learn to read...the very part you quoted states the SSP animals are supplemented with road kill. Your post states they are fed 100% dry dog food.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

I was hoping for something more than the SSP nutrition advisory group.

Their wolf suggestions pretty much comes from the idea that they're gonna try dry dog food as a start because they don't know the nutritional requirements for wolves. Also, their reasoning for suggesting against whole prey is pretty much just because of transition issues if the wolf were to be moved to another facility where whole prey isn't available. So the NAG thing is essentially just a matter of convenience, not nutrition.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

1 minutes 27 seconds of my life I will never get back..


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

zhaor said:


> I was hoping for something more than the SSP nutrition advisory group.
> 
> Their wolf suggestions pretty much comes from the idea that they're gonna try dry dog food as a start because they don't know the nutritional requirements for wolves. Also, their reasoning for suggesting against whole prey is pretty much just because of transition issues if the wolf were to be moved to another facility where whole prey isn't available. So the NAG thing is essentially just a matter of convenience, not nutrition.


Well you didn't read the whole thread where I pasted in the feeding regime from Wolf Haven. You can rationalize it any way you want, but I was correct in stating what I did. 

I know that you and others are horrified at this but the truth is wolves in captivity, even endangered species, eat as much as 100% medium-quality dog food. The finest natural science and animal caretakers in the country have made this decision.

*"The animals that are part of the SSP program are managed very differently from the other residents at Wolf Haven. The SSP animals are managed strictly hands off, the reason being is so that they don’t become accustomed to human interaction. Socialization would not be conducive to the goals of the program, although we are required to enter their enclosures on a daily basis for fecal clean-up. With the Mexican wolves that are slated for release it is imperative that these animals do not become habituated to the presence of humans. Occasionally, some individuals who exhibit interest in their caretakers must be aversively conditioned to reinforce their innate wariness of people. All program animals are also maintained on a different diet and feeding regimen than our permanent residents. Rather than bi-weekly chicken and beef feedings they are maintained daily on high quality dry kibble."*

Peace


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You presented it as though they felt kibble only diets were the best nutritionally for a wolf. It sounds like the main issue is flexibility to move animals around and having all wolves on a standardized diet.

And some of the facilities (including wolf park) do feed their other wolves differently to at least include a partial raw diet.


DSC_1362 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


DSC_1352 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


DSC_1358 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


DSC_1355 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Bumper1 said:


> I know that you and others are horrified at this but the truth is wolves in captivity, even endangered species, eat as much as 100% medium-quality dog food. The finest natural science and animal caretakers in the country have made this decision.


There's nothing surprising about wolves being fed kibble. I just wanted you to back up your claims in the hopes of finding some more things that I didn't know of. So far you haven't done either.


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

Wolf park in battleground IN feed deer, rabbits, cow to their wolves.They sometimes get Holiday treats like frittata for birthdays, watermelon summer, pumpkin filled with goodies for Halloween.

Wolf park is an educational facility though.
Yummy deer organs and deer leg




Deer head








For some dogs it may be a waste of money if the dog can live on good quality kibble with grain in it.. 

Coarse if dog is sensitive to grains then feeding grainfree is good and saves on stomach issues. 

Saya does fine with grains, but I feed her mainly raw diet. She does well on it and I have good sources so price is reasonable. 

$40 for big bag for Bella doesn't seem that bad especially when you see kibble that are crazy pricy.

I say to each's own if they want feed expensive kibble that is fine. Their money and their dog.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I tend to switch from taste of the wild to Purina-Proplan. I can't afford anything that costs more then that. Besides one kind of kibble called chicken soup for the dog lovers soul,that made my dog sick.
I add treats and some meat to his diet as well. Purina proplan is not even that cheap,$30.00 for a 18ib bag,around here dog food is rather pricey. Taste of the wild,$30.00 for a 15ib bag,so $60.00 a month for one dog.
I do prefer taste of the wild,he gets dandruff and is a little more gassy on Pro plan. Energy level,weight,and muscle tone is the same.

I do think paying $60.00 for a 12ib bag is a waste of money,especially for larger dogs.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

how big IS your dog? i have two that are 44 lbs of dogs altogether and don't pay that much per month for food!


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Kayota said:


> how big IS your dog? i have two that are 44 lbs of dogs altogether and don't pay that much per month for food!


75ibs,24"sh. I keep him lean even... Okay taste of the wild lasts about 2 1/2 weeks,so two bags would be slightly over a month.


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## fresca (May 20, 2012)

I was never "horrified" that wolves would be fed medium quality kibble. I am, however, interested in why. Why are the permanent resident wolves fed raw but the SSP wolves fed kibble? Seems strange...

It would seem more logical to feed the wolves slated for release the more natural diet and the long term residents the kibble, if they were to feed kibble at all.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Foresthund said:


> 75ibs,24"sh. I keep him lean even... Okay taste of the wild lasts about 2 1/2 weeks,so two bags would be slightly over a month.


omg... having a german shepherd in the future will be a nightmare financially with the other two lol, definitely waiting until i'm more well off.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kayota said:


> omg... having a german shepherd in the future will be a nightmare financially with the other two lol, definitely waiting until i'm more well off.


Yeah. You don't want to know what adding Thud to my pack did to my food bill. (Tip: It's more than double what it would be, for the other FOUR, combined. Except... the other four combined weigh about 70lbs? Thud does not weigh 140. So, a lot of it's still individual. It is, however, stupid expensive.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

KuroSaya said:


> For some dogs it may be a waste of money if the dog can live on good quality kibble with grain in it..
> 
> I say to each's own if they want feed expensive kibble that is fine. Their money and their dog.


I wish people realized that there are good grain inclusive foods. Just having grain doesnt make it bad and being grainfree doesnt make it good. There are some very good foods that have grains: Annamaet, Dr Tims, Nature's Logic, Prairie, off the top of my head. I have one dog that does fine with grains. There are grainfrees that aren't good: Science Diet, Purina (I think it's Pro Plan) makes one....its all about the ingredients.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> I wish people realized that there are good grain inclusive foods. Just having grain doesnt make it bad and being grainfree doesnt make it good. There are some very good foods that have grains: Annamaet, Dr Tims, Nature's Logic, Prairie, off the top of my head. I have one dog that does fine with grains. There are grainfrees that aren't good: Science Diet, Purina (I think it's Pro Plan) makes one....its all about the ingredients.



Yeah. I'm very much investigating grain inclusive good foods right now. It's not about saving money, it's about seeing if Jack has an easier time maintaining weight with carbs in his diet. Apparently that sometimes happens. I'm willing to give it a go.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. I'm very much investigating grain inclusive good foods right now. It's not about saving money, it's about seeing if Jack has an easier time maintaining weight with carbs in his diet. Apparently that sometimes happens. I'm willing to give it a go.


Take a look at Dr Tims and Natures Logic. NL only has millet for a grain. Ginger is on the chicken now, doing great and we got a bag of sardine & a bag of venison in yesterday. I'm going to try Boone on it, see how he does. They have chicken, beef, rabbit, sardine, venison and lamb, if I remember correctly.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Take a look at Dr Tims and Natures Logic. NL only has millet for a grain. Ginger is on the chicken now, doing great and we got a bag of sardine & a bag of venison in yesterday. I'm going to try Boone on it, see how he does. They have chicken, beef, rabbit, sardine, venison and lamb, if I remember correctly.


Sounds awesome. Thanks for the pointer!


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

> Originally Posted by KuroSaya
> 
> For some dogs it may be a waste of money if the dog can live on good quality kibble with grain in it..
> 
> I say to each's own if they want feed expensive kibble that is fine. Their money and their dog.





InkedMarie said:


> I wish people realized that there are good grain inclusive foods. Just having grain doesnt make it bad and being grainfree doesnt make it good. There are some very good foods that have grains: Annamaet, Dr Tims, Nature's Logic, Prairie, off the top of my head. I have one dog that does fine with grains. There are grainfrees that aren't good: Science Diet, Purina (I think it's Pro Plan) makes one....its all about the ingredients.


That is what I was trying to say.. lol 

If the dog does fine on grain inclusive food then go for it feed it. Saya does on with kibble with grains or grain free I feed her raw though due to her health issues and when on kibble her breath stunk. 

Plus I have a good source on meat, bone in items and organs so price is bit lower then kibble.. 

She does get things like cooked items caned food as snacks or treats and my homemade dog treats has oat meal in it. 

Bella does fine on grain inclusive and grain free I rotate between them she does well on it.

Currently feeding ToTw it's decent priced 30lbs for $44 or so store sometimes has it for $40.

Some dogs have sensitivity issues to peas or potatoes so grains work better for them.

I don't see why people have to make such big deal on what their dog eats or other dogs eat. 

As long as they're healthy and happy and fed well. 

Check those ingredients some kibble make claims of being good, but when you check it has tons of fillers and stuff. 

If all you can afford is purina and some fresh add ins like caned fish or whatever then better then nothing. eggs make yummy kibble topper dogs love it.


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## Sena Hansler (Jun 26, 2012)

For dog food (or really... Any pet food?) I like being able to pronounce the ingredients!  Not asking what(enter 16 letter long 5 syllable word) means, and still not understand.  

Ouch on some of the prices you guys are mentioning... Here the small bags are most expensive, medium is decent, and large are mainly junk-food foods, and are dirt cheap. I COULD save myself 10.00 with a junky brand, and get 4 times the amount... But like I said, ingredients I understand eases the mind!


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> I wish people realized that there are good grain inclusive foods. Just having grain doesnt make it bad and being grainfree doesnt make it good. There are some very good foods that have grains: Annamaet, Dr Tims, Nature's Logic, Prairie, off the top of my head. I have one dog that does fine with grains. There are grainfrees that aren't good: Science Diet, Purina (I think it's Pro Plan) makes one....its all about the ingredients.


I've wanted to say that too, but didn't quite know how to phrase it. I feed my dog Annamaet Option, which I think is one of the best brands out there. It's grain-inclusive, but I like what the company says about where/how it sources its ingredients. I'd also consider Dr. Tims or some of the other foods made at the Ohio Pet Foods plant.

My dog was on TotW for about a year and did well on it. When I decided to switch from a Diamond product (before the recalls) I started her on an Annamaet grain-free at first. But after talking to the owner of the company, decided to give their grain-inclusive a try. She does great on the grain-inclusive Option, so I see no need for her to have grain-free. Oh and I pay about $37 for 20 lbs. It lasts my dog 6-8 weeks.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

fresca said:


> I was never "horrified" that wolves would be fed medium quality kibble. I am, however, interested in why. Why are the permanent resident wolves fed raw but the SSP wolves fed kibble? Seems strange...
> 
> It would seem more logical to feed the wolves slated for release the more natural diet and the long term residents the kibble, if they were to feed kibble at all.


The permanent residents are fed raw beef and chicken, foods we do not want wild wolves to eat! The wolves that are to be released are fed kibble and road kill hoping the animals won't learn to raid pet stores for kibble I am guessing. So wolves do well enough on kibble but it isn't used for permanent residents. Now why is that? Perhaps they do better long term on raw?


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## domika (Jul 1, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> I wish people realized that there are good grain inclusive foods. Just having grain doesnt make it bad and being grainfree doesnt make it good. There are some very good foods that have grains: Annamaet, Dr Tims, Nature's Logic, Prairie, off the top of my head. I have one dog that does fine with grains. There are grainfrees that aren't good: Science Diet, Purina (I think it's Pro Plan) makes one....its all about the ingredients.


I agree with this as well. The kibble I'm feeding right now is the Acana singles, with one grain. I usually add fresh meat, the honest kitchen or freeze dried toppers to boost the protein. I feed grain inclusive Honest Kitchen sometimes too. Grain inclusive (however, not FULL of grain) foods give my dog better stools.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

KuroSaya said:


> Check those ingredients some kibble make claims of being good, but when you check it has tons of fillers and stuff.
> 
> If all you can afford is purina and some fresh add ins like caned fish or whatever then better then nothing. eggs make yummy kibble topper dogs love it.


There are foods priced similarly to what I've seen Purina products priced at that are much better foods.

What I've found is that most of those people don't give a crap. They will only shop t the grocery store, won't go to a feed or pet store, won't shop online. If that's how you feel (not you, the public), just say so. Don't say better foods are too expensive (as some pull away in a nice car, talking on their iPhone).


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> I wish people realized that there are good grain inclusive foods. Just having grain doesnt make it bad and being grainfree doesnt make it good. There are some very good foods that have grains: Annamaet, Dr Tims, Nature's Logic, Prairie, off the top of my head. I have one dog that does fine with grains. There are grainfrees that aren't good: Science Diet, Purina (I think it's Pro Plan) makes one....its all about the ingredients.


I've been loosely following this thread and want to say that this is so true. I think that companies try to sell an idea and if it catches on (or planted that it's catching on) then people run with it. If you read the ingredients (and I am by no means an expert) in a lot of foods they derive protein from plant based sources vs meat based sources.

I have stated that my last dog was super healthy and her only health issue was she would get colitis if she ate beef products so we eliminated beef and gave her lamb and chicken. I also have stated that I fed her crap food - Authority, Science Diet, Purina (2 different types) and Nutro; she lived to almost 12 YO. Could or would she have lived longer on better food - who knows. But the point is it wasn't grain free or great food and she was a happy and healthy dog her entire life.

Zoey had been fed Orijen puppy but turned gassy and her poop stunk terrible, my wife insisted that we change her food (along with Zoey's Vet wanting her off of higher protein). So I went to Pinnacle which was grain free, paid $38 for a bag and honestly Zoey did OK on it but decided to try 4Health because it seemed like the ingredients were almost the same, 4Health had about the same G.A. and cost $19 a 18 lb bag. But Zoey keeps getting ear infections and UTIs, the Vet is suggesting possibly putting her on prescription food for the rest of her life.

So with some help of the forum members and also doing some research and I am now transitioning her to grain free and no white potatoes along with a little higher protein and giving her probiotics and cranberry extract. Hopefully the change in diet along with the addition of supplements will keep her healthy and infection free. I wish she was as healthy as our last dog but something is affecting her.

It really depends on how well the dog does on what you're feeding it.


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## fresca (May 20, 2012)

Kathyy said:


> The permanent residents are fed raw beef and chicken, foods we do not want wild wolves to eat! The wolves that are to be released are fed kibble and road kill hoping the animals won't learn to raid pet stores for kibble I am guessing. So wolves do well enough on kibble but it isn't used for permanent residents. Now why is that? Perhaps they do better long term on raw?


Thank you. That makes sense!


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## fresca (May 20, 2012)

It's kind of funny...a lot of people talk about how their dogs did so well on cheap Alpo in the "old days", but Alpo was all meat until the 70's. In the 70's they added vitamins and minerals as well as some textured vegetable protein. But it does make one wonder...

This is a really interesting (though quite lengthy) lawsuit document on the pet food industry. It has some very interesting information on how the pet food industry really is more concerned with marketing to the consumer vs the real health of the pet. This includes expensive and inexpensive brands. I guess that's why it is just easier for me to feed a home prepared diet for my dogs. It's the only thing that has helped my little liver compromised dog and I can do my own research and don't have to be a pawn to a marketing machine. 

http://www.ftc.gov/os/decisions/docs/vol87/FTC_VOLUME_DECISION_87_(JANUARY_-_JUNE_1976)PAGES_1074-1183.pdf


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I can never see videos, on my phone or laptop. I don't know if I pressed a thing or what.
> 
> Anyway, not seeing the video, my thoughts. . .yeah, price is obviously no indicator of quality. Hill's and Pro Plan are quite expensive.
> 
> ...


I can't see imbedded videos on my phone ... I can on my laptop because it has flash, maybe it has something to do with that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

What about dogs who don't have "jobs " persay but I still feed the high calorie/protein food, just because the dog doesn't "work" doesn't mean they don't need a higher end food.

What is a shame is because she is a vet, people will listen to her & what ppl don't get is VETS AREN'T NUTRITIONISTS!!! 

I'm posting this on FB


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. You don't want to know what adding Thud to my pack did to my food bill. (Tip: It's more than double what it would be, for the other FOUR, combined. Except... the other four combined weigh about 70lbs? Thud does not weigh 140. So, a lot of it's still individual. It is, however, stupid expensive.



Manna's at $140-$160 a month now...at 110# of dog



OwnedbyACDs said:


> What about dogs who don't have "jobs " persay but I still feed the high calorie/protein food, just because the dog doesn't "work" doesn't mean they don't need a higher end food.
> 
> What is a shame is because she is a vet, people will listen to her & what ppl don't get is VETS AREN'T NUTRITIONISTS!!!
> 
> I'm posting this on FB


Manna doesn't work but I do notice that she does better on high protein and low carbs/grain, I think it may be individual to the dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll point out that the guy in the video is a CPA . His job is to make you not spend so much money. Like Consumer Reports saying that Ol' Roy is the "best value" for a dog food---no duh, CR, it doesn't take a bunch of economists to go see which food is the cheapest on the shelf .And this guy found a vet to say something similar to what he was recommending. So yeah, it was just a local news bit, most of those are pretty crummy anyway, I doubt there are many people taking it seriously (maybe just a few locals in their viewing area).


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

fresca said:


> It's kind of funny...a lot of people talk about how their dogs did so well on cheap Alpo in the "old days", but Alpo was all meat until the 70's. In the 70's they added vitamins and minerals as well as some textured vegetable protein. But it does make one wonder...
> 
> This is a really interesting (though quite lengthy) lawsuit document on the pet food industry. It has some very interesting information on how the pet food industry really is more concerned with marketing to the consumer vs the real health of the pet. This includes expensive and inexpensive brands. I guess that's why it is just easier for me to feed a home prepared diet for my dogs. It's the only thing that has helped my little liver compromised dog and I can do my own research and don't have to be a pawn to a marketing machine.
> 
> http://www.ftc.gov/os/decisions/docs/vol87/FTC_VOLUME_DECISION_87_(JANUARY_-_JUNE_1976)PAGES_1074-1183.pdf


ALL industries market to the consumer and very few people running all those industries care for anything other than how they can get people's money. "Let the buyer beware" has been around a long time ... as far as the pet food industry worrying about a pet's health; we can't get people to stop smoking cigarettes and I cringe when I see a 20 YO smoking.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

I wont feed my dog any bi product meal. I prefer grain, just little grain, and i agree that protein shouldn't be higher than 20-25. But to say that cheap foods are GOOD... Idk. Obviously i not looking to spend more than 60-70 bucks on food though. Anything above that to me in ridiculous. 


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> I wont feed my dog any bi product meal. I prefer grain, just little grain, and i agree that protein shouldn't be higher than 20-25. But to say that cheap foods are GOOD... Idk. Obviously i not looking to spend more than 60-70 bucks on food though. Anything above that to me in ridiculous.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Look at the tractor supply website and look at the 4Health brand - cheap food that's free of soy, wheat and corn - the chicken and rice is 27% protein and it costs about $20 for a 18lb. bag ... 30 lbs. is cheaper by the cost/lb.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> There are foods priced similarly to what I've seen Purina products priced at that are much better foods.
> 
> What I've found is that most of those people don't give a crap. They will only shop t the grocery store, won't go to a feed or pet store, won't shop online. If that's how you feel (not you, the public), just say so. Don't say better foods are too expensive (as some pull away in a nice car, talking on their iPhone).


What I DON'T get is the folks who buy crap foods at pet speciality stores, which charge (in my area) twice what Walmart (or your local store ) for much much cheaper. Their all like "I'm doing so good for my dog because I buy from petCO!" 

Uh ... No. Crap is crap, no matter how much you pay for it  I am afraid that there will always be a market for crap because there will always be people who don't care


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Kayota said:


> how big IS your dog? i have two that are 44 lbs of dogs altogether and don't pay that much per month for food!


2 that are right around the 100 pound mark and I feed one that is in the 30 lb range. It gets costly but... again, they are my babies and are worth every penny. I wish I really knew if it made that much difference to the dogs. My dogs are used to grain free and seem to have acquired expensive taste, they snick their noses at cheap foods. ha ha


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> Look at the tractor supply website and look at the 4Health brand - cheap food that's free of soy, wheat and corn - the chicken and rice is 27% protein and it costs about $20 for a 18lb. bag ... 30 lbs. is cheaper by the cost/lb.


I buy Acana and orijin is 25 for 18lbs. It just came extremely recommended for the breed (doberman) and gsd's in Orijin and Danes on innova. Yeah theyre spoiled, im thinking of switching my gsd and dobe onto the same thing so ill check that out!! Thank you. 


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I wish I could feed a grain inclusive food because they are in theory cheaper but bear is allergic to ALL grain, so as long as he is around I have to do grain free, it's too bad because merrick has a grain inclusive line thy (on paper at least) looks pretty good. But merrick (for us) is best & cheapest (here its about the same price as TOTW), all the dogs are doing well on it & they love the taste. I'm feeding the pork one.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

You should look into Victor, they're Texas based and are grain free/white potato free. I just picked up a 15 lb. bag and it only cost $29, not too bad and if I went larger I think the price per pound would have been a little cheaper. I am also looking into Nutrisca which is also grain and white potato free but haven't priced that out yet - both seem to be over 30% protein and a little lower in carbs. Just a thought.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

What's wrong with merrick? Their ingredients are good & it's about $45 for the grain free (compare to the 70 I was feeding with NVI) but if an issue arrises I will look up victor or nutrisca


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> What's wrong with merrick? Their ingredients are good & it's about $45 for the grain free (compare to the 70 I was feeding with NVI) but if an issue arrises I will look up victor or nutrisca


Nothing is wrong with Merrick as far as I know, it sounded like you only had one food that you can feed and I was giving you an option - in case you wanted to try something else; you mentioned that Merrick was cheap and I know some grain free foods are very expensive. 

As I stated above - it all depends on how well a dog does on a particular food.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Thanks  there are a fee options for us down here ... But I remember why I didn't choose victor, it has yeast extract in it ... Which bear can't have :/


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I wish I could feed a grain inclusive food because they are in theory cheaper but bear is allergic to ALL grain, so as long as he is around I have to do grain free, it's too bad because merrick has a grain inclusive line thy (on paper at least) looks pretty good. But merrick (for us) is best & cheapest (here its about the same price as TOTW), all the dogs are doing well on it & they love the taste. I'm feeding the pork one.


Have you tried Natures Logic? The only grin is millet, what I read is a pseudo grain. I just got two bags in, will try Boone, my boy who can't have grains, on it when his NV runs out.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Natures Logic? I looked at that website for the first time. Red Flags all over it.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Bumper1 said:


> Natures Logic? I looked at that website for the first time. Red Flags all over it.


I see a lot more calcium than I want to feed my dog and a messed up ratio of copper/iron/zinc, what else? Please educate us.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Because by-products and fruits and vegetables (which aren't really needed) are the best things for dogs (sarcasm) jeeeeezzz and middle protein is better than more protein is bull....the more protein the better it is for your dog


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> I see a lot more calcium than I want to feed my dog and a messed up ratio of copper/iron/zinc, what else? Please educate us.


1) The statement about no added vitamins borders on fraud. If you put enough yeast culture in something yes you don't need vitamins but suggesting it is not a supplement is ethically questionable. 
2) The GA's are "typical analysis" not mins and maxs, so they look too similar to be real. They are fishy.
3) Other than the Chicken kibble, the foods have very odd AAFCO statements. The way it works is that if you test a food, you don't have to formulate them in accordance with the nutrients profiles. However, other than the chicken, the foods have neither been tested nor formulated according to the nutrient profiles. In looking at the Beef food, the phosphorous level is much higher than the AAFCO limit, even the old one. Are they suggesting the Beef foods is like other foods? Has anyone seen a food with 2.95% phosphorous and negative ratio to calcium?

From my understanding only two AAFCO statements are permitted 1) One that says the foods were tested in accordance with AAFCO and 2) One that says the foods were formulated in accordance with the AAFCO nutrient profiles.

This food says neither, so the complete and balanced claim is highly questionable. AAFCO is not the be all and end all but this food is very questionable. I wonder which states won't register it, has to be a more than a couple.

I would have no confidence in using this food. Just lots of red flags.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Bumper1 said:


> 1) The statement about no added vitamins borders on fraud. If you put enough yeast culture in something yes you don't need vitamins but suggesting it is not a supplement is ethically questionable.
> 2) The GA's are "typical analysis" not mins and maxs, so they look too similar to be real. They are fishy.
> 3) Other than the Chicken kibble, the foods have very odd AAFCO statements. The way it works is that if you test a food, you don't have to formulate them in accordance with the nutrients profiles. However, other than the chicken, the foods have neither been tested nor formulated according to the nutrient profiles. In looking at the Beef food, the phosphorous level is much higher than the AAFCO limit, even the old one. Are they suggesting the Beef foods is like other foods? Has anyone seen a food with 2.95% phosphorous and negative ratio to calcium?


1) it's marketing fluff that most companies use in some way. I pretty much just ignore it.

2) I do agree that the analysis is misleading. Apart from it being a typical analysis instead of a determined guaranteed analysis, it is DMB which makes for even higher numbers. The information is useful to have but when they only provide that instead of a standard guaranteed analysis, it's kind of questionable.

3) As for the AAFCO statements, there is a third option which is to have the 'lead' product in a product family pass a feeding trial and the rest be formulated similarly. That looks to be what they are doing.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

zhaor said:


> 1) it's marketing fluff that most companies use in some way. I pretty much just ignore it.
> 
> 2) I do agree that the analysis is misleading. Apart from it being a typical analysis instead of a determined guaranteed analysis, it is DMB which makes for even higher numbers. The information is useful to have but when they only provide that instead of a standard guaranteed analysis, it's a bit too much of a shady marketing gimmick and makes me skeptical about the company in general.
> 
> 3) As for the AAFCO statements, there is a third option which is to have the 'lead' product in a product family pass a feeding trial and the rest be formulated similarly. That looks to be what they are doing.


That would be the biggest reason not to use this product, the trustworthiness of the company. That option is for similar foods. Not a line of foods that are so different. 

How could one even suggest that the chicken and beef foods are part of the same "product family". Also, typically with this option they use the same statement not all mumbo jumbo this company uses.

I could think of several lines of foods this would apply to. Diamond has some foods that are nearly identical but branded differently so if one is tested then it would be fair to apply the test to the foods that are actually similar.

I am glad you brought Option 3 up because that is the biggest red flag of all. The intent of Option 3 is not to state that Chicken, Venison, Lamb and Beef Formulas are a "product family". That is meant to apply to branding differences.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

I edited out the company part because it's more just my personal preference. Completely subjective.


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## SamC130 (Mar 20, 2013)

The video is right on the money. Too many dog owners are just plain gullible. They buy the most expensive food they can find for their dog when their own diet is far less expensive. Comparing dogs to wolves is incorrect. Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and they have been fed the same things their human companions ate until recently when the dog food industry developed along with veterinary nutritionists and other aspects of the animal industry. A recent European study determined that dogs became domesticated when humans started eating cereals (grains) and they naturally started eating their scraps as they had been doing for centuries already. Dogs are not carnivores (neither are wolves, coyotes, foxes, dingoes, hyenas, etc. and etc. They eat whatever they can find. By the way, do you know who canine nutritionists work for? Dog food companies such as Purina, that's who. If you're feeding your dog high protein food, all you're doing is throwing your money down a rat hole. Dogs need a balanced diet, just like their human companions.


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## Dweri (Apr 8, 2020)

of course it can be , the price depends on the brand... not on quality!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

7 year old thread ...


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