# Should you spay and neuter?



## bluedog6 (Feb 15, 2016)

My friend is deciding to adopt a month old puppy from the local pound. The spay and neuter all their dogs before they can go home. There was a brother and sister that my friend fell in love with that are both 3 months old and spayed and neutered. My question is that is it bad for dogs to get fixed that early, and is there any difference between male and female dogs getting fixed that early?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There are a few studies that seem to show a slightly increased risk of certain health issues for dogs altered before maturity. But there have been millions of shelter pups altered at a young age, and the vast majority of them do just fine. In short: if I had a choice I wouldn't alter a dog that young, but if it were already done I wouldn't let it stop me from adopting that dog. 

One thing she should consider is littermate syndrome. In general, it's better not to get 2 puppies at the same time, unless you're willing to a put a LOT of extra time and effort into training them separately.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

How much do the puppies weigh at 12 weeks? Any idea about their breeds? 

I'd also advise against getting two puppies at once. It's three times the work that raising one puppy is.


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## dixiedragon (Apr 25, 2016)

Our vet recommends that females be allowed to go through one heat, but not more than 3. She says the more heats a female goes through, the higher the risk of mammary cancer. I have observed in our King Charles Cavalier Spaniels that the females who went through heats have sleeker coats and the ones spayed early have frizzier coats. All that being said - I agree with the shelter's policy. They don't have the time or the personnel to follow up to make sure dogs are neutered and they have no way to force neutering if the new owners decide not to. I know some rescue groups offer a rebate after you provide proof of neutering. I have seen horrible injuries in dogs due to fights between intact males, or even neutered males fighting over a female in heat.


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## bluedog6 (Feb 15, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> How much do the puppies weigh at 12 weeks? Any idea about their breeds?
> 
> I'd also advise against getting two puppies at once. It's three times the work that raising one puppy is.


Thanks for the tips! The puppies are about 7 pounds, and the shelter said they were mostly chiweenie (not sure if this is correct or not)


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> There are a few studies that seem to show a slightly increased risk of certain health issues for dogs altered before maturity. But there have been millions of shelter pups altered at a young age, and the vast majority of them do just fine. In short: if I had a choice I wouldn't alter a dog that young, but if it were already done I wouldn't let it stop me from adopting that dog.


AGREE TOTALLY! The scientific studies that have been done on spay/neuter are all over the place, partly because results seem to depepnd on breed, age, sex, and other factors. Partly because many studies are questionable from a statistical perspective, and neutering often reduces risk for one problem while increasing risk for another problem.


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## 271818 (Dec 7, 2016)

It's really a delicate balance. A dogs adoptability decreases drastically from week to week as they age from puppies. I worked at a no kill that adopted out puppies if you signed a contract to alter. All too often, people did not follow through and we ended up with highly unadoptable grown dogs with behavioral issues returned to us. The cause of their return? The behavioral issues caused by being intact. Most shelters do not have resources or money to seek legal action for these contract breakers. In the long run, it's most beneficial to the animal to be altered earlier. It allows them to find a home easier and decreases chance of return. And once a dog has been returned, it is harder to adopt out. In the end, to me at least, it was worth the risk. It broke my heart when we had a "worse case scenario" as a result of contract breaking.
Also, spay/neuter surgery has come a long way and will continue to do so. My Pyr was running around the day after her spay surgery and she was left with a one inch incision that healed completely in less than a week.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about it in a small breed dog, particularly a robust mutt mix.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

jada_shea said:


> All too often, people did not follow through and we ended up with highly unadoptable grown dogs with behavioral issues returned to us. The cause of their return? * The behavioral issues caused by being intact.*


Behavioral issues have nothing to do with dogs being intact or altered. They come down to genetics and training. 



> In the long run, it's most beneficial to the animal to be altered earlier.


This is inaccurate. In the long run, it's most beneficial to the stray dog population for shelter dogs to be altered earlier. It's also more beneficial to the owners, many of whom are not equipped to handle an intact dog. 

It is absolutely NOT beneficial to the health of ANY individual dog to have their hormones removed in their infancy.



> Also, spay/neuter surgery has come a long way and will continue to do so. My Pyr was running around the day after her spay surgery and she was left with a one inch incision that healed completely in less than a week.


Allowing any dog to run around the day after an invasive surgery is high inadvisable. Recovery time and rest isn't an 'if you feel like it' guideline. It's to prevent sutures from tearing and internal bleeding.



bluedog6 said:


> Thanks for the tips! The puppies are about 7 pounds, and the shelter said they were mostly chiweenie (not sure if this is correct or not)


Yeah, as Cpt Jack said, in a dog that small, I wouldn't find it to be overly concerning. If you were adopting a Dane, I'd tell you to turn tail and run


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## 271818 (Dec 7, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> Behavioral issues have nothing to do with dogs being intact or altered. They come down to genetics and training.
> 
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> 
> ...


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

jada_shea said:


> I don't want to send the wrong message here. I meant all of that in a balance between age and shelter alteration.


It definitely didn't come off that way, as when you attribute behavioral issues and shelter dogs being returned to being intact, you're implying that intact dogs are more likely to develop behavioral issues.



> As for Hime moving around day after, the vet that performed the operation approved (and even recommended for some reason?) it. Thanks for showing concern though. It's good that you care enough to speak up.


Remember that this is a forum that's read by 100 people for every 1 that comments. When you say that your dog was running around the day after a spay, that gives the impression that that activity level is okay, and it's really not. Not sure why a vet would recommend that an animal who has both internal and external sutures would be highly active, but every vet I've ever worked with has recommended crate rest and supervision for at least 7-10 days after an invasive procedure.



> And by "beneficial to the animal" I meant that it would be better for a shelter dog to face the narrow margin of complications from an early alteration than being brought back to a shelter due to marking or aggression.


Neither marking or aggression have anything to do with a dog being intact. Again. You're attributing behavioral issues to dogs being intact that have nothing to do with whether the dog is altered or not. Both altered and intact dogs mark, and can be aggressive.

ETA: I'm *really* okay with people having different opinions about when to s/n than I do. What I'm not okay with is people spreading false information about intact dogs as being more likely to have certain behavioral issues. It's incorrect information that can sway a person to alter before they otherwise would have because they're worried about their dog turning aggressive because it still has testicles.


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## 271818 (Dec 7, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> It definitely didn't come off that way, as when you attribute behavioral issues and shelter dogs being returned to being intact, you're implying that intact dogs are more likely to develop behavioral issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess that's just something we're going to have to agree to disagree about. I have read a lot about it, spoken to professionals, and have enough raw experience that has convinced me there is a correlation. I'm also convinced that just like people, all dogs are a little different. Some are more trainable and some less so. But in general, being intact makes it harder to train a dog. I have an unaltered male and I can't do a thing with him. The altered dogs were always easier to work with. I do agree that 3 months is a little early outside of a shelter situation where unaltered dogs can't and shouldn't be adopted out. 

And you have an excellent point about my dogs post surgery activity levels. I suppose I assumed that consulting a vet on that sort of thing went without saying? I was also surprised by what that vet said, and it wasn't my usual one, so I can assure you we proceeded with caution. This is the same dog I had to keep kenneled for months while she underwent heartworm treatment. Thanks again for your thoughtfulness.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

jada_shea said:


> I guess that's just something we're going to have to agree to disagree about. I have read a lot about it, spoken to professionals, and have enough raw experience that has convinced me there is a correlation. I'm also convinced that just like people, all dogs are a little different. Some are more trainable and some less so. * But in general, being intact makes it harder to train a dog.* I have an unaltered male and I can't do a thing with him. The altered dogs were always easier to work with.


Yeah, no, it really doesn't. If you can't train your unaltered male, it's because whatever you're doing isn't working for him. It's not because of his testicles. 

I'm pretty sure AKC confo dogs are mostly pretty well trained, well behaved dogs. Guess what? They're all intact. Same with many sport dogs who compete at the highest level of their respective sports. There also happen to be several members of this forum who compete in IPO and agility. They have intact males and females they compete with. 

I've worked personally with eight altered males and two unaltered males, owned by myself and family members and friends. The two unaltered males are both by far the easiest. Two of the altered males were highly aggressive and obsessively marked. That anecdotal evidence doesn't lead me to say that ALL intact males are easy to work with. Because I'm sure they all aren't. And it doesn't mean all altered males are aggressive and mark. Because they aren't and they don't. 

You're using very anecdotal evidence to claim something is a fact, and you're just plain wrong. Saying that an intact dog is automatically more difficult to work with makes people consider altering younger, AND makes them blame the dog for training issues, not the trainer. And guess what? It's the trainer's fault training isn't going well at least 90% of the time. It's about the dog's age, temperament, the breed, the handler and the training foundation. Not about whether it has balls (or a uterus) or not.


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