# New Shih Tzu - emergency question



## newtzu8 (Apr 12, 2011)

I joined this forum to ask a question that's been eating at me all day. I originally posted this in my announcement, but it seems like more people view the general dog forum.

My friend just got (on April 7, last Thursday) a female Shih Tzu puppy from his cousin who had bred two Shih Tzus for the first time. The puppy is six weeks old and has had her first round of shots.

I saw this dog this weekend and it was adorable, inquisitive, energetic. Since it was the weekend, my friend had ample time to spend with the dog.

But, this is never going to work. As great of a guy as he is and as nice of a home as he will provide for the dog WHEN he's home, the fact remains that he has to be gone for 9.5 hours per day (work and commute). Granted, it's a very regimented time period that is always he same, but it's 9.5 hours regardless.

First, from everything I've read, he shouldn't even have the dog at six weeks. His cousin should have waited until it was 10 or 12 weeks before turning ownership over to my friend.

Second, there's just NO way around the time spent away each day, is there, especially for a puppy? He walked it today before he went to work and spent time with it and fed it. He came home immediately after work. Amazingly, the dog didn't defecate or urinate in its cage. I assume it slept almost all day. And, she was very playful and alert once he got home according to him (I didn't see it today).

But, from everything I've read, and the few people I've talked to, a Shih Tzu, even moreso a puppy Shih Tzu can't be alone that long 5 days a week without developmental/behavioral problems.

I thought maybe in the beginning he could take off some days from work, get some people to come over during the day most days, and then when it was more mature, he could leave it at home all day, but not in a cage, rather an enclosed area. But, I've read all this information about how this breed needs so much attention and it just can't be alone for that long without being miserable.

And, I don't think he can afford a daily walker, which where he lives would be a minimum of $70 per week.

In some ways I think it's a bad thing that his first day away went so seemingly smoothly (but, of course, he doesn't know what happened while he wasn't there).

So, yes, scold my friend for not thinking things through, but I want to inform him of the right thing to do, which is, I assume, to get a walker, doggie day care, or find another home for the dog.

This is incredibly sad, since it's a beautiful dog, my friend, again, is generally great with dogs, and he was ready to provide a wonderful home, except for the fact of his daily absence. Add to that the fact that he's been going through a rough time and he was so excited to get the dog. I hate to tell him that he might have to find a different home for it. I really feel like an a-hole, a buzz kill.

But my question remains. Can a Shih Tzu, in any way, stay home for 9.5 hours alone every day after it is more mature?

I know this post will probably piss off some dog lovers, since it seems irresponsible to get the dog in the first place. But, all, he and I can do now is do what's best for the dog.

Thank you.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Well, first, if the puppy was taken directly from its mother and litter mates at 6 weeks, that would be like...the absolute earliest it should ever happen. It would've been great if the puppy could've stayed for 1-2 more weeks, but that is in the past.

The puppy probably shouldn't be left alone for 9.5 hours straight every day... but a mid day visitor (or 2) would fix that AS LONG AS he has the puppy in puppy socialization classes on some evenings as well AND he invites people friends over to meet the puppy, etc. The puppy will not be old enough for a daycare for AT LEAST 6 more weeks. 

A lot of dog walker programs can work with people on puppy visits; some even will come 2 times a day for a reduced price/etc. Unfortunately, it DOES cost money...that is the price of having a puppy and working full time. We got our pup at 9 weeks old and had a mid-day visitor for ours. he's doing fine. We kept him in a puppy proofed bathroom at first, but now he remains crated.

Hope this helps some.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Usually, it's best for puppies to stay with mama and littermates until 8-10 weeks, at the least. Of course, there are always emergencies, like if they're abandoned, etc., but this doesn't sound like an emergency. Puppies who leave their mama too soon miss out on learning the beginnings of bite inhibition, as well as puppy social skills.

Nine and a half hours alone is way, way too much for a 6 week old puppy. Puppies, at this age, have little to no control of their bladder and bowels, and will definitely have accidents in the house, or in the crate, if it's crated. The thing is, in general, dogs don't like to soil the area they sleep in (the crate), so it's really kind of cruel to leave a pup that can't control their bladder, who will not be able to hold it, and will have no choice but to soil.

Also, if your friend is gone 9.5 hours during the day, the pup will learn it's ok to soil in the house, because your friend is only home in the evening, and there's only so much potty training that can be done in the evenings. Think about all the time the puppy is alone during the day, that's just lost potty training time.

And, pups that age should be fed, on a schedule, 3 times a day. How is that to happen when your friend is not home? Puppies who are young AND small, can only handle a small amount of food at a time, so feeding 3 times a day is important.

And, basically, as Lisa said, in order to make up for all the time gone, the training needs to be amped up when your friend IS home, lots of socialization, training, puppy classes, etc....

It doesn't sound fair to the puppy, IMO.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Under normal circumstances, a puppy can't hold it that long. However, an adult dog can easily adapt to this kind of interaction. For example, I have a Lab mix, and many co-workers have Labs or larger dogs.... all of them sleep all day, after some interaction before and after work. However, I can't talk to small dogs. 

This situation, the puppy not making a mess all day, may be a fluke, but if it doesn't change or cause obvious stress for the pup, then I vote for continuing with something that works (?) ... If, as we expect, the pup starts to develop stress, anxiety, or messes, then at that time I'd suggest that your friend adjust or get lunch time sitter (or more frequent).


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## newtzu8 (Apr 12, 2011)

Yeah, I was convinced that the first day was a fluke with the dog not having an accident in the cage. He's been committed to getting the dog socialized when he gets home, exposing it to other people (mainly different relatives and friends), and I recommended that he take it to a class. But, there is the problem of it being so young. As I said, now I know after the fact that the puppy is really too young. His cousin is the owner of the puppy's parents and there are still two puppies left from that litter who have not been given away. Could, he give the dog back to his cousin for a few weeks, or is the litter/parent bond already broken from being away for four days?

Regardless, if he is going to keep this dog, the next months are going to be crucial. As I said in my earlier post, he could take some time off (use vacation time to take half-days off), I could probably assist one day a week, some other friend and relatives could assist with visiting during the day. But, long term this looks like a difficult situation unless he pays for daily doggy daycare or at least a walker who does more than just walks, actually spends a bit of time with the dog. 

Again, I feel really bad. He's really not a bad guy and he's not trying to make a dog's life miserable. He simply jumped in too quickly maybe thinking that because there certainly are dogs that stay home all day, that any dog can do it at any stage. He knows people and I know people who want dogs who have living situations where someone is home at least part of the day and the dog wouldn't have to be alone very long. So, if he can't get something worked out very quickly, then I think he'd be smart enough to find the dog another home.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It CAN be done. Millions of people work full-time and--gasp!--manage to raise puppies succesfully. It will probably take longer to get her potty-trained, and it will take extra work and a high level of commitment. He'll have to come home from work and spend a lot of time with her instead of being lazy in front of the TV. But it can be done.

I would suggest he not crate her if he can't find a dog-walker to take her out in the middle of the day. She would be forced to potty in her crate and that's not good. I'd suggest a large puppy pen so that she can go potty away from her sleeping and eating areas. As for feeding 3 times a day, that can also be done--once in the morning, once right when he gets home, and once at night. Unless it's a 2-pound Chi puppy, that should work fine. I had a hypoglycemic ferret that did well on that schedule, so if a sick ferret can do it, a healthy puppy can too!


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## Bird-Dog (Dec 24, 2008)

Maybe this friend is more of a flake than we, as outside observers, can know since only you have a history with him but reading your posts I can only think, "With friends like you, who needs enemies."

Six weeks is too young, yes, no arguing that. However, it sounds like that is more the BYB cousin's fault. 

I got my small-breed puppy at 8 weeks while single and working a full-time M-F job. Fast forward two years...

-She successfully completed two rounds of obedience training at the top of her class; we were asked to repeat the class FREE OF CHARGE because the trainer wanted to use Hershey as an example of a well-trained puppy

-Just completed second round of agility training at the top of her class. Everyone in class makes us run first because they like watching her work the course so well (everyone, including the instructor and guest observers, has commented on her foundation in obedience training and her connection to me as handler on more than one occasion)

-Minimum of 2 miles per day of walking (walking for me, trotting for her)

-Weekly trips to dog beach which can add up to 5+ miles of climbing the bluffs

-Daily training sessions, she gets as excited to she her clicker as she does to see a treat bag filled with kibble

-Daily play sessions of tug, chase, hide-and-seek, and general rough housing (flying leap off of/on to mommy still a big hit with her)

-I can count the days she's been to doggy daycare on one hand; days when repairmen were in the house or days when PM work commitments prevented trip home in between work and event

-Litter box trained (not everyone agrees with this method but it works for us); the only time we had a problem is when I failed to foresee her ability to scale a 3-foot x-pen at 8 weeks, she got out and couldn't get back in. Put a "roof" over her and she's been great ever since.

-Boundary trained at the front door, back door, car door, and bedroom door. I can leave the front door open for circulation and she won't leave, she might bark if she sees something but she won't go after it. She's not allowed in the bedroom without permission, she stops at the threshold.

-Still "crated" (she's 10# but her crate is Newfy sized, I call it her 2-room condo) while I'm at work but that's more because we live in earthquake country not because she's not trustworthy. For errands and even long spans if I'm local, she's free to roam the house.

-No separation anxiety, ever

Not a week goes by when someone doesn't comment on how well-trained and well-behaved she is - but according to you I should have rehomed her. Meanwhile I have neighbors who "rescued" two dogs that never get walked, are allowed to run around in the street unleashed, and have fleas and worms. The wife doesn't work and is home all day with the dogs. Have another neighbor who doesn't believe in flea protection because "dogs in the wild don't have it", never picks up the feces, and never walks the dog because "we have yard so she doesn't need a walk." One took early retirement so, again, someone is home all day with the dog. 

Crating a dog, as in a crate only big enough to stand up and turn around, all day is cruel. But confining a dog (x-pen, supersize crate, dog-proof room) is not, provided the dog gets plenty of mental and physical stimulation before and after long periods of alone time.

Can this puppy grow into a happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult dog? Yes.
Will it be easy? Absolutely not.
Can anyone do it? Definitely not.

You know your friend better than we do, if he's a flake who has never once completed anything he started and would rather sleep in on Saturday than take the dog to obedience class (for example) then, yeah, this won't end well. On the other hand, if your friend is a responsible adult who did his research before getting a puppy then there's no reason to assume it's going to end badly simply because he works a full-time job.

/soapbox


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## newtzu8 (Apr 12, 2011)

Bird-Dog said:


> Maybe this friend is more of a flake than we, as outside observers, can know since only you have a history with him but reading your posts I can only think, "With friends like you, who needs enemies."
> 
> Six weeks is too young, yes, no arguing that. However, it sounds like that is more the BYB cousin's fault.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for you're feedback. He is not a flake, other than the fact that he jumped into getting this dog. We've discussed this non-stop since last Thursday when he got the dog and it's because his (and mine by proxy) obsession -- how is he going to make this better, how is he going to train a happy healthy dog under these conditions. He won't just sit there when he gets home. He'll interact, play, socailize with the dog basically all evening. 

I didn't mean to communicate that he simply give up by finding the dog another home, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you or anyone else with a small dog should have gotten rid of their puppies if they work full time. The 'finding it another home" idea was just a default position if he can't make the situation work. 

I realize that plenty of people work all day and don't have walkers. My concern wasn't necessarily just with the time away, but the breed. This is a Shih Tzu which, as a breed, needs a lot of attention. Moreover, there are particular concerns because it is so young.


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## palmtree77 (Apr 5, 2011)

I have 2 Shih Tzus and as a breed they are independent, way less clingy than the other toy breeds. It is completely unfair thoug to leave a puppy in a little crate for 9.5 hours. Whenever I raise a puppy I use an expen and put in puppy pads, a bed, water and toys. That would be my main suggestion to him. Please strongly suggest this to him as one of the nicest things he could do for his puppy.


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

I do believe people can work full time and have dogs. I think you can raise a puppy under the circumstances of working full time with some adjustments (I've never raised a puppy younger than 6 months - you puppy raising people are braver than me!). 
My main concern is the puppy being able to hold it's need to eliminate for almost 10 hours. Not that the puppy doesn't want to or doesn't understand the desire behaviored it just has developed physically to be capable of this reliably (which you already acknowledged - so moving on)
A dog walker may be too expensive - could he go home for lunch? A trust worthy neighbor to run next door and let the puppy out for a bit? Perhaps a less than conventional solution for the problem. A puppy pad (with the frame to keep puppy from eating/chewing it)? Litter box (I've heard they work well for small breeds)? One of those patches of fake grass (never used one but it might work him - assuming puppy doesn't chew it). A few suggestions for his time span. The owner may not be able to jump directly to training the dog to go outdoors if he isn't there to let him do his business often enough outdoors. 
For entertainment - maybe a few puzzle toys - kibble balls, tug-a-jog, kongs. Lots of chew toys.
For space - maybe a huge crate or an ex-pen (especially if does the puppy pad or litter box training instead of going outside). 
These are only suggestions - others who have raised a young puppy (you brave people) may have better ideas. I worked with a six month old puppy - I had the advantage of her having more mature bowel/bladder control for house training, being on the tail end (hahaha - tail end ) of chewing (only had to do another few months of chewing) and being close to adult size. Some of the information may help though. Lots of toys and chews - lots.


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