# Supplements - What do you use and why?



## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

I've been doing some reading on ALL the different supplements, probiotics, enzymes, etc. Seameal, fish oil, salmon oil, all in ones vs individual products... There are SOOOO many to choose from. 

My dogs were on Pet Naturals of Vermont Daily Best and Hip+Joint. I took them off of those when I started using Healthy Select Enzymes & Probiotics because they were having tummy problems from a dog food. (I didnt do any research on the Healthy Select, that the only one I saw at the local Petco and I really wanted to try something for their tummies.) I'll probably go back to giving them the Daily Best and Hip+Joint, at least until I run out or find something else.

Just want to know what everyone else uses and why? 

(Note - Please do not turn this into a raw vs processed food or a kibble vs kibble debate - ty)


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

The glucosamine products have been shown to be no more effective than placebo in large trials using humans. They're probably worthless for humans and dogs alike. The liquid products are the most effective at delivering the active ingredient compared to dried products. They're not cheap. Watch out for products with high levels of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) as this form of vitamin C can upset sensitive stomachs.

Vitamin C is also suspected to be benefitial to joint health. Dogs make their own but many people supplement that. You can use calcium ascorbate instead of the ascorbic acid to avoid stomach upset.

Fish oil is used for the DHA/EPA which has shown to be benefitial to humans, but I am not aware of any study for dogs. Some people believe the hype about Omega 3 and Omega 3/6 balance, but I'd look at exactly what amino acids you're feeding to determine whether Omega 3 is necessary. It's commonly accepted wisdom to supplement vitamin E (mixed tocophyerols) when feeding fish oil. The tocophyerols preserves the fat in storage and it is suspected to be used by the process of employing the amino acids. I feed both fish oil and E. A good alternative would be a diet that included a fair amount of ocean fish or grass fed animals. That's cost prohibitive for me so I feed the oil. It's expensive as well but less so than fresh or frozen fish meat where I live.

I use a calcium supplement (bone meal actually) to balance my ration's Ca ratio because I sometimes feed ground meats or organ meats that lack calcium from bones. Generally, I try to feed meaty bones or whole carcasses so bone meal would be unnecessary. Bone meal is cheap. I feed a USDA/FDA human supplement.

I feed a multi-vitamin but I don't believe it provides anything the dog needs which he doesn't get from his diet. I'm just going through a bottle of expired human vitamins. It is an iron-free multi which will not cause nausea or an excess of any nutrient or vitamin.

People also supplement creatine if they're wanting to build their dog's muscles and they're providing the appropriate types of work activity - short bursts of high exertion not long aerobic or endurance activities. Creatine has been shown to work if it's used right. If the dog was eating natural prey, the muscles of the wild animal would have a lot more creatine in them than cage raised meat birds and feed lot beef and swine.

Other body builder supplements are Nitric Oxide, which I think can be dangerous and which is nothing but snake oil in terms of benefits, but they sell a lot to credulous people.

And of course protein supplements, whey and casein. Dogs do bad with lactose but whey is increasingly popular as a cheap source of protein in commercial dog foods (it's better than melamine apparently). It gives my dog gas and he doesn't need additional protein as his ration is already 40 to 60% protein just from the meat. If his food was something like 18% protein from CGM, then I would rather use whey than that but meat is best.

Other than that, some people get into steroids. I don't know who but probably mostly ghetto dogs and pit fighters. It might happen with sport competition dogs. Some of the people involved use drugs so their dogs probably do too. I'm not aware of any testing that's done.

Here's an article on a recent controlled study that casts some doubt on the benefits of supplemental DHA (fish oil). Previous studies that suggested it did have a benefit were observational.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/20/health/research/20fishoil.html?src=me

There's no question that DHA is useful, the doubt is whether _supplemental _DHA has any additional benefit. Another way to look at it is, we don't know how much is really useful and whether there is a benefit to any more.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

Bart said:


> The glucosamine products have been shown to be no more effective than placebo in large trials using humans. They're probably worthless for humans and dogs alike. The liquid products are the most effective at delivering the active ingredient compared to dried products. They're not cheap. Watch out for products with high levels of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) as this form of vitamin C can upset sensitive stomachs.
> 
> Vitamin C is also suspected to be benefitial to joint health. Dogs make their own but many people supplement that. You can use calcium ascorbate instead of the ascorbic acid to avoid stomach upset.
> 
> ...


that was really well stated.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Max gets minerals to balance his raw diet. A while back I figured there was plenty of the glu/chon/MSM stuff in his food naturally so no supplement needed. I give him enough fresh fish to give him the healthy dog's needs for Omega 3, about 300 combined mg of EPA/DHA per day for his 38 pounds.

I worked through a whole bottle of the same joint supplement I gave Sassy without any relief from my knee issues but they definitely benefited her. Her times in agility runs improved and just a few months ago I could tell she felt better on the supplement because she could jump on the window seat again. Off, no jumping up. On the stuff, jumping up. Same with the Adequan shots, she definitely perked up.

I am wary of supplements made for dogs. Quality control may be lacking as in the pet tabs that were contaminated with lead at least twice. "Tasty" additions may be counterproductive to the diet I am working up with too much liver, flax or yeast. If I felt a dry food diet was lacking I would find a fresh food that filled in the blanks and make up a topper rather than depend on pills or powders.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

We supplement glucosamine, fish oil, raw meaty bones, yogurt, and bug off garlic. All human grade except for the garlic. 

Glucosamine is for his bones, fish oil for his skin/coat, bones for his teeth, yogurt for his digestion, and garlic for the bugs.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm not at all sure supplements are necessary but I give three regularly: Nature's Farmacy Dogzymes Digestive Enhancer (probiotics and enzymes), Dogzymes Ultimate (a whole food multi-vitamin) and Sea Pet Fish Oil with Vitamin E. I give the probiotics and enzymes to assuage my kibble guilt, the multi-vitamin because I take a multi-vitamin myself, and the fish oil because it seems to improve their coats and I buy into the benefits of unsaturated fats. Were I feeding less commercial foods I might forgo the probiotic and multi-vitamin but I'd still probably feed the fish oil. My two cats and one dog are healthy on this regimen but I don't have any sickness to health in two short weeks success stories.


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## LDMomma (Jul 19, 2010)

We use Glyco-Flex III because two of my girls have been diagnosed with luxating patella and we're trying to keep it from deteriorating. 

We also give a small breed multi-vitamin daily.

Lily gets a fish oil pill daily because she needs it to rebuild tissues that were removed during her surgery last week.


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## HuskyLuv (May 16, 2008)

I give Nupro with Joint Support to all three of my dogs, it's a general supplement with added joint support including Glucosamine, MSM and Ester C.

I have one dog with luxating patella so she gets additional Ester C, MSM, and Glyco-Flex II in addition to her Nupro Silver.
One of my dogs also has irritable bowel problems so she gets Perfect Form digestive aid in addition to Nupro Silver.


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## Masterjedi688 (Apr 27, 2009)

LDMomma said:


> We use Glyco-Flex III because two of my girls have been diagnosed with luxating patella and we're trying to keep it from deteriorating.
> 
> We also give a small breed multi-vitamin daily.
> 
> Lily gets a fish oil pill daily because she needs it to rebuild tissues that were removed during her surgery last week.


Awww I hope Liily is feeling much better.

I give Benji The Brewers Yeast Tablets petco brand for his coat and too help with his itchiness. Its worked wonderfully with his coat. He still has a slight itchiness but not like before. I'm glad its working for him.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Katie: she's a 14ish year old sheltie with arthritis, hip dysplasia and bladder stones. I did research and I think it was B-Naturals had a very helpful article on stones. She 
gets oil (usually salmon oil capsules but lately, SeaPet), Vit B-50, Vit E and COQ10. She is on K9 Glucosamine, with Metacam & Tramadol for her joint issues but
they're not working. I just ordered two joint products from Genesis products, they came recommended and I hope they'll help her. I can use those and use the 
Metacam and Tramadol if she needs it. 
Boone: same oil as above
Both dogs get Bug Off Garlic, we use the granules because the chewables have yeast and Boone can't have yeast


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

Currently I give Uno
1) Liquid Salmon Oil
2)Prozyme (enzyme supplement)
3)Plain yogurt or kefir (probiotics)


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## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't believe in supplements, if diet is good no additional stuff is needed.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ssg said:


> I don't believe in supplements, if diet is good no additional stuff is needed.


*sigh* Not true. RAW is about as good as you can get, and that still doesn't help a large dog's joints or coat as well as it could, and digestion can be an issue in just about any dog requiring probiotics/enzymes.


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## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

Double "sigh" lol


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ssg said:


> Double "sigh" lol


mkay. 

Fact is, some dogs do fine on high quality food with no supplements, but others need them. It has nothing to do with the food, everything to do with the dog.


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## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

Poor genetics.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ssg said:


> Poor genetics.


I know a lot of dogs with great genes that still need supplements. 

Even so, a good food won't fix it.


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## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

Lol, what ever you say.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

The fish oil can be good stuff for SOME dogs that are prone to skin issues. The glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate has never actually been proven to help with any current joint instability, arthritis or its progression. The same goes for probiotics - there's some cases that it has helped and I have seen a handful that I personally believe they made a difference but it's all speculation as it has never been proved and there are plenty of cases in which they haven't done squat. All of these are nutraceuticals - so they haven't been evaluated by any regulatory agency and so their claims are just that, claims. So, I guess I feel like these can be worth a try if the situation calls for it.

But, I also have to agree with ssg. I think genetics trump just about anything. If an individual is destined to have condition X there's not always a lot we can do about it. You give me a GSD that has inherited some raging hip dysplasia or a toy breed that has luxating patellas being coded for all over its DNA - all the chondroitin and glucosamine in the world isn't stopping those trains.


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

My reasoning behind omega 3 supplements, aside that they are lacking in commercial food, is that unless you feed your dog grass fed and organic meat sources, they are not getting the necessary fatty acids since majority of the livestock is factory farmed, has no excess to pasture which makes their bodies very high in saturated fat and very low in omega 3 fats. 



> The reason that grassfed animals have more omega-3s than grainfed animals is that omega-3s are formed in the green leaves (specifically the chloroplasts) of plants. Sixty percent of the fat content of grass is a type of omega-3 fatty acid called alpha-linolenic or LNA.
> 
> When cattle are taken off grass and shipped to a feedlot to be fattened on grain, they lose their valuable store of LNA as well as two other types of omega-3 fatty acids, EPA and DHA. Each day that an animal spends in the feedlot, its supply of omega-3s is diminished.9


http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-natural-beef.asp


When I feed my dog kibble/canned, he gets enzymes because those are destroyed in the cooking process and I want him to utilize as much nutrition as possible from his food. When I feed raw, I dont add enzymes. 

I give yogurt/kefir primarily as a treat, especially when he has an upset stomach, it seems to help right away. Another reason I give it to my dog is because he likes to swim, which previously contributed to ear infection from excess moisture in the ears and yeast overgrowth, with the elimination of grains from the diet and addition of probiotics, he hasnt had an ear infection in 3 years. 
Its also beneficial to the animals that have been treated with antibiotics to restore intestinal flora.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Exactly which enzymes are destroyed in the cooking process?


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## bumblegoat (Jun 22, 2009)

BlueChaos said:


> My reasoning behind omega 3 supplements, aside that they are lacking in commercial food, is that unless you feed your dog grass fed and organic meat sources, they are not getting the necessary fatty acids since majority of the livestock is factory farmed, has no excess to pasture which makes their bodies very high in saturated fat and very low in omega 3 fats.


This is my reasoning too, and it's also why I take omega 3 capsules myself. The fish oil is the next best thing to feeding grassfed animals or fatty fish in my opinion. My dog refuses to eat fish (except for the occasional canned fish), and the only grassfed meat I can find at a decent price are beef scraps (which is mostly fat), so he doesn't get much of that.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I don't give him any supplements. He just eats Acana along with wet food. Oops! Am I a bad dog mommy?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I don't give him any supplements. He just eats Acana along with wet food. Oops! Am I a bad dog mommy?


Haha, no, you just have a healthy dog! The things I (and most people) supplement for is digestion, skin/coat, and bones. Smalls dogs rarely have bad joint issues, he's got an iron tummy, and he obviously has a remarkable coat. So, no need!


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## doginthedesert (Jun 18, 2010)

I supplement my dogs raw diet with Natures Farmacy Dogzymes Ultimate. I have only started this recently but my reasoning is that you will never really get complete nutrition out of farm-raised animals and my dog gets all of his bones from farm raised chicken. 

I recently was given some info by the ranchers that raise the grass fed-finished beef we buy. It is crazy how much better for you free range cow is than corn fed. I feel good knowing that this is going to be a big part of my dogs diet, but sill feel the need to compensate for the commercial chicken. If I only fed wild caught/grass fed game I would probably not supplement. On some other forums I participate in I would never dream of telling them I supplement because they are so strongly against it. But at the end of the day my dog is still eating an artificial, human assembled diet. It is as natural as I can make it, but it is not perfect, thus I supplement. 

I do not blindly supplement, I do what is right for my dog. His skin/coat is amazing without anything, so I do not use a supplement for that, he gets all the calcium he needs from his food, so none of that either. We are going to be adding fish to his diet soon, but if for some reason it does not go well I will be scrapping the fish and supplementing with a fish oil.

It all depends on what your dogs diet and individual needs are.


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

> Exactly which enzymes are destroyed in the cooking process?


Due to proteinaceous nature, enzymes are very sensitive to heat. The rate of an enzyme action increases with rise in temperature, the rate of action increases 2 to 3 times for a rise in temperature of 10°C, i.e., the value of temperature quotient or Q10 is 2 to 3. But at higher temperatures, the value of coefficient does not remain constant and decreases rapidly. Above 60°C, the enzymes coagulate and thus become inactivated due to irreversible change in their chemical structure.
With certain exceptions, the rates of enzymes catalyzed reaction are increased as the temperature is raised. By raising temperature, the number of activated molecules is increased which ultimately results in velocity of the reaction. The enzyme catalyzed reactions show the increase in the velocity between 25°C to 35°C. At 0°C or below 0°C the enzymes become inactivated but they are not destroyed. At 60°C to 70°C, in a liquid medium the enzymes are inactivated and destroyed. This destruction of enzymes at high temperature results in coagulation and denaturation. Thus as the temperature is raised, the reaction rate increases upto a certain limit and above that the enzymes get denatured. The temperature, at which the rate of reaction in maximum, is known as optimum temperature.

Conclusion
In general, the optimum temperature range for most enzymes varies between 30° and 45°C. Since enzymes are globular proteins, most are thermolabile and begin to denature at temperature between 45° and 50°C.
Mammalian enzymes often have optimum temperatures in the range 35°-45°C; whereas the enzymes from the bacteria that live in volcanic hot springs may have optima of 80°C.
The enzymes of dry tissues like seeds and spores can endure still higher temperatures of about 100° to 120°C.

http://www.tutorvista.com/chemistry/effect-of-temperature-on-enzymes

Kibble is cooked at the temperature of 104.4 to 132.2 degrees C., hence the destruction of enzymes.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

I'll be honest, I'm not sure why you just wrote a biochem lecture as I didn't say anything about that. I'm pretty familiar with how all of that works (minus knowing the actual temperatures as you do).

So, original question. Do you know the names of the enyzmes that are destroyed? The ones you supplement?


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

The ones that are applicable to the food being fed, whether its starch or grain bound:

Protease – breaks down proteins found in meats, nuts, eggs, and cheese

Lipase – breaks down fats found in most dairy products, nuts, oils, and meat

Cellulase – breaks down cellulose, plant fiber; not found in humans

Amylase -an enzyme that breaks starch down into sugar


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

You seem to have done a lot of reading on this so I'm guessing you already know that these enzymes (except cellulase) are already made in the dog's pancreas. 

Do you supplement to add the one enzyme? To hopefully decrease the workload on the pancreas?


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

Mr. V- theres a difference between food and digestive enzymes, our bodies do produce the enzymes necessary to break down the nutrients, but not enough if we (our our dogs) consume mostly processed foods like kibble. Over time this puts the body into an overdrive and compromises the immune system because the body has to work extra hard to keep replacing the damaged cells. Its unfortunate that as we age, the body deteriorates, but I feel like its helping my dog get the most out of his nutrition and besides, he's thriving, which is the only proof I need.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Do you have any literature I can read that describes the process you're talking about. Specifically, the part where you said that there are not enough enzymes produced if the dogs consume kibble and what cells are damaged and how?


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

There are tons of articles online, just google it, it almost seems like you revel in trying to contradict me. Its like asking why the earth isnt flat. Its just common sense. Do you know why people have issues like indigestion, constipation, gas, etc after they eat a ton of junk food, because there arent any enzymes in the food to begin with and it puts the body into overdrive in order to break it down, which it obviously cant do on its own. 

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/bio/enzyme_types.aspx

http://www.thewholedog.org/id22.html

http://www.rawfoods.com/articles/rawvscooked.html


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I'm going to start my old boy on glucosamine as soon as I can find it (looking for Cosequin). Corona gets fish oil, and hopefully George will learn to like it and start eating that as well.

The glucosamine was recommended by my vet as Gerogie has bilateral grade 2 luxating patellas. The fish oil I decided to do myself after the girls had been on a fish-based food and I noticed how much softer their coats were lol.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

BlueChaos said:


> There are tons of articles online, just google it, it almost seems like you revel in trying to contradict me. Its like asking why the earth isnt flat. Its just common sense. Do you know why people have issues like indigestion, constipation, gas, etc after they eat a ton of junk food, because there arent any enzymes in the food to begin with and it puts the body into overdrive in order to break it down, which it obviously cant do on its own.
> 
> http://www.gopetsamerica.com/bio/enzyme_types.aspx
> 
> ...


Well OK then.


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## Missie2007 (Mar 13, 2007)

My otherwise healthy dog has recently had some issues with her coat and itching so I decided to switch up her food (I now feed Wellness Whitefish and Sweet Potato), added Prozyme and threw in a multi-vitamin (Whole Daily by Green Dog Naturals)

I figured it was a low risk, low cost, potentially high reward solution. I too, can't tell you that it's been some miracle recipe, but the coat has improved dramatically, she looks great and is even losing the excess 5 or 6 pounds she'd put on as she aged. The results are noticeable.


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi. Dogs don't need any supplements. They can't properly metabolize supplements. The most appropriate foods for animals are exactly what they eat if they are left out in the wild or in their natural habitats. There’s no scientific literature which states that dogs need garlic supplements, etc. My dogs are on raw meat and bones. They don't get allergies and don't smell at all since I stopped using pelletized food.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

dustinshaw98 said:


> Hi. Dogs don't need any supplements. They can't properly metabolize supplements. The most appropriate foods for animals are exactly what they eat if they are left out in the wild or in their natural habitats. There’s no scientific literature which states that dogs need garlic supplements, etc. My dogs are on raw meat and bones. They don't get allergies and don't smell at all since I stopped using pelletized food.


Please share links or articles to back up your claims on supplements. What about those of us who don't feed raw and don't feed "pelletized food"?


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

My pup gets Omega 3 oil.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

All four get - coconut oil, coq10, probiotics. Stella also gets a senior vitamin.


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