# German Shepherd Aggression



## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

Hello! I am new to the forum and am in desperate need of advice. First, a little background: I have two dogs, a 5 year old Husky and a 2 year old German Shepherd. About a year ago, I moved in with my boyfriend. He has a 5 year old Bull Mastiff. All three of the dogs live together in the same house. All dogs are male. My two are neutered; my boyfriend's is not.

Over time, problems started brewing between the GSD and mastiff. The mastiff would occassionally hump the GSD, which would spark aggression in the GSD. He would growl or snap at the mastiff to get him to stop. The humping has stopped, but the aggression on the part of the GSD has worsened. He has attacked the mastiff many times, leaving puncture wounds on his face and neck. It is an awful, high stress living situation that is not fair to the mastiff. I am fully aware of this.

I have taken the GSD for a one week "boot camp" at the facility near our house that trains police K9s. They trained him with a prong collar. While his obedience improved, the aggression towards the mastiff remains. Last night the GSD attacked the mastiff just because I told the mastiff, "NO" for something he was doing. He left a large hole in his ear. This was the worst attack yet.

I am now exploring the option of using an e-collar to further train and curb the GSD's aggression. I would love some advice on how to use the e-collar to ensure that I do not inadvertently worsen the aggression with the use of the collar.

Please, I do not want this to be a discussion of why not to use e-collars. I also do not want people telling me to rehome my GSD. I want to correct this issue and do everything I can do myself before looking into any other options. I would really appreciate any feedback anyone could give me on using e-collars with aggressive dogs. Thank you so much for your help!


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## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

I don't think the e-collar will produce the results you want. Basically, it looks like the problem is stress. The collar would cause even higher levels of stress. While you may curtail negative behavior in the short term, you're setting yourself up for an explosion of fury. It think you've already seen this with the prong collar.

Overall, I think that finding ways to reduce stress in the home will be the key to improvement. You can use positive methods to help the two dogs get along better, once the stress level is lowered. I'm greeting the impression that things are tense right now. The dogs will pick up on that and act accordingly.

I suppose having the mastiff fixed is off the table as well?

.


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## ohrocy (Oct 28, 2010)

> I suppose having the mastiff fixed is off the table as well?


Seconding. 

Also, it sounds like the GSD was defending himself at the beginning, and now that time's passed he's decided to beat the Mastiff to the punch, so to speak. It's great that the humping has stopped, that's half the battle, but you've got to change the GSD's view of the Mastiff... and the e-collar may not help with that. Timing is _everything_ with those kinds of devices. You want the GSD to associate the shock with his own behavior, but he may very well associate the shock with the Mastiff's presence— making him even MORE reactive and aggressive towards the other dog. For me, it wouldn't be worth the risk— I'd look into positive training methods, and I'd definitely consult a professional trainer.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

I've already had him trained by the best facility in northwest Indiana. Like I said, it helped with obedience, but did nothing for the aggression. I have a lot of experience with positive training methods and have to say that they have not worked very well. My Husky was trained with NILIF and I wasn't impressed. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

The dogs get along great most of the time. For some reason, when he's tired or crabby or irritable he strikes without provocation. I really do not understand it. It's like when I give the bull mastiff a command the GSD has to put his two cents in by attacking him or growling him. Almost all the time when they fight it's because me or my boyfriend told the bull mastiff to do something (i.e. move over, off the couch, etc.). I am sure I have done something wrong in his training where the GSD doesn't understand his place in the "pack." I'm hoping that using the e-collar will reestablish me as pack leader and that will, in turn, help with the dominance issues as well, if they are indeed a result of lack of respect for me (hopefully that makes sense).


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## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

You've got to get away from the dominance and pack theory thinking. See these links for more info.

http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

http://www.nonlineardogs.com

The thing is that you can probably put the dog into shutdown using the dominance techniques, making the animal seem obedient in the short term. But, what you really have is a ticking timebomb that will go off.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

How would obedience training at an overnight facility help with his aggression towards the mastiff? Also, pack theory is way outdated. The man whose research sparked it has long since repudiated pack theory. Please read up on the matter. And DO NOT use the shock collar. That is cruel and will make things worse.

Basically, you have two, possibly three, problems:

1. Neutered males are known to be aggressive towards unneutered males.

2. The Mastiff set this off by humping the GSD, now the GSD hates him. Using corrections has likely made this worse.

3. Your GSD may have selective dog aggression, which is genetic. You can't train out genetics, even if you hook him up to a car battery and blast away.

You need to keep the dogs separated at all times. This is called "crate and rotate". Many, many households do this for years, even decades, with no problems. If you can't crate and rotate, please rehome the GSD. That would be better than shocking it for being a dog.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

I just said that I didn't want people to talk about their opinions of using an e-collar or rehoming the dog...you successfully did both. Thanks.

I hate using these forums because many people (like you) just post to boast about how much they know about dogs. You aren't really trying to help people, just brag about what you [think] you know. If you were really trying to help, you'd ask more questions to clarify the issue.

Thank you to the people on here who have truly tried to help with their suggestions. I appreciate it!


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## ofthelogos (Mar 1, 2012)

This has nothing to do with dominance or your leadership and thinking that way will only set you up for an antagonistic relationship wih your dogs.
As others have said, adding an aversive to an already stressful situation will increase your dog's aggression without warning signs (what you will be punishing are the warning signs of the underlying emotional response, you are not changing the dog's emotional response to the situation) and he is very likely to start associating negative things in his environment wih the mastiff. Indeed, he already is. When you verbally corrected the mastiff the other day your dog reacted with re-directed aggression. You raising your voice was aversive to him, so he did what in dog logic makes sense -> use aggression (a distancing signal) to attempt to remove the thing in his environment that he associates with negative experiences. The mastiff.
Inter-male aggression by fixed dogs towards intact dogs is very common. Intact dogs have (relative to neuters) high levels of testosterone - which, among other things, is a hormone dogs produce when emotionally aroused. Your fixed dog is interpreting this superficially heightened level of testosterone as aggression/arousal (not sexual arousal, emotional) and therefore thinks he needs to defend himself.
You are shooting down positive training, but counter-conditioning your shepherd to the mastiff is the only way you're really going to address the root of the problem. You need to change his emotional response. What sort of positive training have you done? As you have already realized, obedience training, positive or aversive, has very little to do with behavior modification (other than apparently making your dog more sensitive to correction). Also, a huge part of training is building a language and trust between the two of you. Sending a dog to "boot camp," no matter how well renowned, does nothing for either part of that dynamic, and also does nothing to address the problem in context. As you have seen, it has had no effect here.

I would separate the dogs so he cannot rehearse this behavior and to give you more control for training purposes. I think looking for a certified behaviorist is a good idea at this point, the behavior seems fairly rehearsed and exasperated. Behaviorism is currently unregulated, but this website will direct you to folks with true behavioral training and certification.
http://www.certifiedanimalbehaviorist.com/
In the mean time, there are a few good books I would recommend.
"Click to Calm" - Emma Parsons
"Fight!" - Jean Donaldson (this is available from a website called 'dogwise' as an e-book download for around 10 bucks)
"Control Unleashed" - Leslie McDevitt


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

callmedonna said:


> I'm hoping that using the e-collar will reestablish me as pack leader and that will, in turn, help with the dominance issues as well, if they are indeed a result of lack of respect for me (hopefully that makes sense).


Ah, there it is.

With the e-collar, what you'll basically be doing is electrocuting your dog whenever he jumps the mastiff, and in his mind it's not going to 'I'm in pain because of what I'm doing, I should stop', it's going to be 'I'm in pain because of this dog, I should fight harder.' and when you finally get that fight broken up, -if you do- then you're going to add more stress on your dog and make him even more suspicious and resentful towards the mastiff. 

Dominance techniques will only create a fearful dog. Your dog will end up being afraid to act rather than knowing the difference between right and wrong. and when one day he can't take it anymore, that'll be the worst yet. let that theory fly out the window. 


What I see has happened here is the mastiff was allowed to be a bully, and now the GSD expects to be dominated by him, so he lashes out first. 




bgmacaw said:


> Overall, I think that finding ways to reduce stress in the home will be the key to improvement. You can use positive methods to help the two dogs get along better, once the stress level is lowered. I'm greeting the impression that things are tense right now. The dogs will pick up on that and act accordingly.
> 
> I suppose having the mastiff fixed is off the table as well?


allll this


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

That makes a lot of sense, thank you. I did a lot of research and asked how to begin to address the aggression issue and almost all places said to begin with obedience training (even though GSDs are generally pretty obedient to begin with). Do you think neutering the bull mastiff would be a good start?


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

I am not "electrocuting" my dog for attacking another dog, nor is that what I said I was going to do. I actually never said I would even shock him during a fight, as I know that would cause him to lash out harder at the mastiff.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

An e-collar is not the answer to the problem. If anything, it'll make it worse. Sorry that's not what you want to hear.

Contact a behaviorist that uses positive methods. Until then, keep the two dogs separated. 

It also sounds like the GSD has become a helper dog/bully. I've worked with numerous dogs that feel the need to help supervise the other dogs. 

Forget the alpha mumbo jumbo. You've been given solid advice on the matter. The dog shouldn't even know that you're delivering the shock from a collar let alone viewing the remote holder as "alpha".


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## ofthelogos (Mar 1, 2012)

Obedience training is important in this scenario because it a) gives you the tools you need to ask for alternate behaviors and b) it gets the dog used to looking to you for information (this is also why it is so important for you to be involved in training).
It has very little to do with actually addressing the problem, but it's still necissary for the process. Makes sense?

As to the neuter, now that this behavior has been well rehearsed, neutering is probably not enough to solve the problem. It certainly can't hurt though


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## UF Girl (May 31, 2012)

Tofu_pup said:


> An e-collar is not the answer to the problem. If anything, it'll make it worse. Sorry that's not what you want to hear.
> 
> Contact a behaviorist that uses positive methods. Until then, keep the two dogs separated.
> 
> ...


I agree. Tomorrow is our last session with a behaviorist for dog aggression issues. All sessions were done in house and we used our everyday collars. Things aren't entirely perfect but you can't expect miracles in a few months, but the situation is manageable and the more we work at it the better it gets.

I will add, the "pack leader" mentality was not used, but the "I am in charge, not you, I will control the situation and dogs" was. Basically my DA dog had to learn that I was going to take charge and she didn't need to worry about it.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

What about just using the buzzer for redirection? That's definitely what he's doing-supervising the mastiff's actions and then "punishing" him-which is obviously not his role! I have been unable to find a behaviorist in my area, which is a huge bummer. Thanks for your feedback!


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

That definitely makes sense, that's why I went ahead with the 5 day training. It made sense for him to know basic obedience before tackling the main issue head on. He sits, stays, lays down, heels like a champ, walks beautifully on a leash-it's just the aggression that I can't get under control.


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## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

Neutering the mastiff may help in the long run but for the short term keep the dogs apart as much as possible. When they are together, keep the atmosphere stress free and positive. Separate them ASAP at the first sign of a problem, but do it calmly so as not to raise the stress level. Use positive rewards for calm behavior or simply not reacting.

I'm typing this on mobile so hopefully it makes sense.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

callmedonna said:


> I just said that I didn't want people to talk about their opinions of using an e-collar or rehoming the dog...you successfully did both. Thanks.
> 
> I hate using these forums because many people (like you) just post to boast about how much they know about dogs. You aren't really trying to help people, just brag about what you [think] you know. If you were really trying to help, you'd ask more questions to clarify the issue.
> 
> Thank you to the people on here who have truly tried to help with their suggestions. I appreciate it!


So, "tell me what I want to hear and don't bother me with facts"?

Sorry, darling, I won't lie to make you feel better about shocking your dog. 

I did train a 90 lb GSD mix with severe dog aggression to walk nicely on a leash past other dogs. I did it positively with not one prong, choke or shock collar in sight. I never would have asked him to live with another dog, although it did break my heart not to be able to help several dogs in need I came across. (I didn't want to crate and rotate, so I didn't get started with it. Had I had 2 dogs and then had one start being aggressive, I would have done it.)

Sometimes, the answer to your problems isn't what you want to hear. Pack leader is bunk. Shocking the dog won't make you pack leader. Leaving dogs to fight is a bad idea. Try something else, what you're doing isn't working.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

Thank you for stating the obvious. Your advice is useless. In the meantime, darling, enjoy tooting your own horn on your stupid "accomplishments."


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Ecollars used to punish aggression tend to escalate aggression. You can teach obedience but it simply overlays the issues without addressing them. I'm guessing that part of the reason things are getting worse is because of the "boot camp" training. IMO growling or snapping at a big clueless dog to stop it from humping is not aggression, it's communication.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

callmedonna said:


> I've already had him trained by the best facility in northwest Indiana. Like I said, it helped with obedience, but did nothing for the aggression. I have a lot of experience with positive training methods and have to say that they have not worked very well. My Husky was trained with NILIF and I wasn't impressed. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.


If they used a prong collar, I doubt they are the "best" facility. At least I hope not.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

I wouldn't be using the ecollar to punish aggression; I would use it to correct him when he chooses to ignore my commands (whether it be sit, stay, etc.) in hopes that it would transfer over to the aggression problem, if that makes sense. I would never use the shock when he was involved in a scuffle, as I know the dangers of this.

I didn't blame the GSD when he was growling while being humped and I definitely agree with you that that is two dogs communicating in their own way. All I was saying in regards to that is I think that is when the major issues between the two started.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

Many people have their own opinions on what is the most effective method of training. That was not the reason for this post and it has gotten WAY off topic; not one person on here has directly answered the question that was asked. I do not care who is in favor of prong collars, e-collars, positive training methods, etc. and I put that disclaimer out there in my initial post. I asked for help with the e-collar, which I still haven't gotten. Thanks anyway.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

callmedonna said:


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> ...


Crate and rotate. 

You're not going to get the responses you want to dictate others to give you because the responses you want are not the ones that will help your dogs.

Edit to add:
After a period of crate and rotate, with the assistance of a GOOD trainer who has successfully worked with aggressive dogs and helped tone down said aggression (get many references and seek out your own references for any trainer) you may be able to have them interact in a controlled and supervised environment such as on-leash walks with a different person walking each dog.


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## ofthelogos (Mar 1, 2012)

callmedonna said:


> I wouldn't be using the ecollar to punish aggression; I would use it to correct him when he chooses to ignore my commands (whether it be sit, stay, etc.) in hopes that it would transfer over to the aggression problem, if that makes sense.


That's not quite how it works. Teaching him that there are aversive consequences for disregarding your commands will either make him more wary of you when he's stressed (and once again, it seems like his stress response right now is further aggression towards the mastiff) or simply be completely ineffective because when he gets that worked up his sympathetic nervous system has kicked in (fight or flight) and you are past the realm of learning and into management territory. It's kindof like asking someone to solve math problems while riding a rollercoaster. A dog over threshold like that cannot build a new emotional response, you have to work sub-threshold before you bring up the intensity like that.

Also, ignoring you can actually be a sign of stress. Your dog may simply be trying to communicate to you that they are uncomfortable.
Another book you might find useful is a short read called "On Talking Terms With Dogs" by Turid Rugaas. It's a basic photo illustrated guide and breakdown of dog body language and social signals. This might give you a little more insight into the interaction between your shep and mastiff as well.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Don't use the e-collar is the advice you're getting. You can start searching for a behaviorist at iaabc.org


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## UF Girl (May 31, 2012)

callmedonna said:


> Many people have their own opinions on what is the most effective method of training. That was not the reason for this post and it has gotten WAY off topic; not one person on here has directly answered the question that was asked. I do not care who is in favor of prong collars, e-collars, positive training methods, etc. and I put that disclaimer out there in my initial post. I asked for help with the e-collar, which I still haven't gotten. Thanks anyway.


People aren't going to give advice on something they know isn't the answer. It sounds to me like the GSD thinks you are unable to control the situation and he is taking charge instead. An e-collar won't help that. 

I am not a trainer and those with experience on here may disagree with me. But like I said earlier I am currently working through a similar situation and with some training (without the use of prong and e collars) and working daily with the dogs All three of my dogs can be in the same room together supervised without incident. This is a huge improvement from when she would snarl and growl through a glass door.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

If you would like to learn proper use of an e collar, there are many sources. Bart Bellon is one who travels and does seminars. 
You may have used Faus I believe he is in northern Indiana. The only problem.with training with police k 9 trainers, they really don't care if the dogs are aggressive with others. I have trained with bill before, if that's who you used, and yes they are.fine for what they do. That's not what you need however.

Obedience will help keeping your dog under control with aggression. Teach him to focus on you before there is any tension between the two dogs. It's going to take time and work, and keeping them.separated when you aren't there to control things. Even then, some.dogs don't get along. 

One of my dutch bitches was just plain mean. The other dogs mostly just avoided her. One malinois female had enough, and they would fight over a toy, a treat, attention, a look, a rock, a stick, you name it. Neither would back down. Positive reinforcement was not going.to get it here. Her reward was literally the fight. It did take negative corrections to get her on track. Which I don't often recommend, however, working with dogs that can have severe human aggression, you do what is needed sometimes. The dutchie is happily working with a.department in Illinois now.
Another one here had severe aggression, and this has been worked on with mostly positive rewarding, focusing on me. Not every dog will respond, some are just going to have that aggression. It can be managed, but usually never gone.


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## callmedonna (Jun 12, 2012)

Thank you for actually answering my question. I will look up Bart Bellon and try to learn the appropriate way to use an ecollar. I did not use Faus, but rather Landheim. They did okay with teaching him obedience, but like I said, it did not curb the aggression (and his obedience was pretty solid to begin with!). I appreciate your help.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Your welcome. I don't use e collars personally. Most of the young dogs I have leave to other working homes, and I find e.collars are so mis used, that its best to have solid commands with praise and toy rewards. The problem dogs I yet in, an e.collar is not going to help, as it needs to be worked into slowly. Just as using any other training tool, the dog must have time to learn what the touch from a collar means, and how it correlates to training.

There is nothing wrong with correctly using e collars. Prong collars are safer than choke chains, but again I don't have a need for either here. I would rather have a dog that wants to work for rewards, than having to work for fear of corrections. I will correct a dog, when he does something completely uncalled for.. handler aggression, most dog aggression, and that's about it. Blowing me off in training, or doing opposite of what I ask, gets a time out to watch the other dogs tug and play, and not participating but having to watch the others is usually plenty to get a drivey dog working happily for you.

When your dog learns that showing aggression doesn't get him anywhere, but focusing on you and the best reward and big praise comes when he ignores that dog and focuses completely on you, will really get you somewhere.

That may start with being quite a distance, as soon as he eyes the other dog, "look", reward and praise. Over and over. Work up to being beside the other dog (with both leashed) work figure eights around him, eventually doing everything possible. This will create a solid "want to obey" rather than, "oh well ill take the zap this time".


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I can't help with any of your questions except to say neuter the bullmastiff. I could say more about e collars as I used them but it's not what you want to hear; you seem to think you can dictate who can post what. One poster gave you her observations but you came back with a smart aleck comment. I'm sure you're not here to make friends, which is probably good because you're not making any.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

callmedonna said:


> Many people have their own opinions on what is the most effective method of training. That was not the reason for this post and it has gotten WAY off topic; not one person on here has directly answered the question that was asked. I do not care who is in favor of prong collars, e-collars, positive training methods, etc. and I put that disclaimer out there in my initial post. I asked for help with the e-collar, which I still haven't gotten. Thanks anyway.


Well neutering a 5 yr old dog is not gonna stop anything as he's pretty much set in his ways.

You have gotten much help with the e-collar, everybody has said don't use it. The odds of helping the problem are somewhere between slim and none.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

im amazed every day to see the lack of knowledge when using training tools, but yet STILL insisting on using them.... if you dont know how to properly use it, and everyone is telling you not to, why the heck do you still think its the only "cure"? obviously, its not a cure... i feel for the dogs in this situation... being humped repeatedly until you need to defend yourself, being punctured repeatedly and still the dogs are put together again and again with the same results....


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I second: Neutering the Bull Mastiff, crate and rotate in the meantime and for a short while after the Mastiff is neutered, then a slow positive reintroduction. I've heard/seen some people take the two dogs for really long walks/hikes/runs; close enough to be near each other to get used to the other's company...

Donatello is mildly aggressive towards non-neutered males. I say mildly as he'll just bark and growl with his hackles up, act intimidating for a minute while he's sizing the other up, and if he thinks he's gonna lose, he'll back off- all the while growling and barking.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

deege39- what if he thinks he can win!? haha


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

@GreatDaneMom- lol! There have been a couple dogs smaller or slightly bigger than he, that he's bullied around and mounted. lol! But if it's anything bigger than a Beagle, he'll turn around and just talk smack from a picnic-table.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Thank you for stating the obvious. Your advice is useless. In the meantime, darling, enjoy tooting your own horn on your stupid "accomplishments."


Insults will not be tolerated here. Good luck at your next forum.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

callmedonna said:


> I hate using these forums because many people (like you) just post to boast about how much they know about dogs. You aren't really trying to help people, just brag about what you [think] you know. If you were really trying to help, you'd ask more questions to clarify the issue.


So . . . you are posting here because?


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

It is astonishing the amount of people that come to just this forum alone and ask for advice, then get mad when they get it.

You're being advised on how to help your dog in a way that will benefit him, not just you. When you get that e-collar, put it around your neck and press the buzzer. Then, if you still feel it will help, put it on your dog. Maybe he'll be curled in the corner in no time, Lol.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

It appears the OP has been banned.


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## Precious Puppy (Jun 20, 2012)

It breaks my heart when I hear of a dog in the hands of a human who does not want to do what is right for the dog, but do what is right for the human.


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