# Lying down instead of sitting



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I have been working on sit/stays lately, and my puppy ALWAYS lies down when asked to sit. Without fail.

I have no idea why, as sit was the first thing I taught him, and he didn't learn down until several weeks later. I know I would never have let him get away with lying down instead of sitting. I have always lured him back up into a sit when he has done. I must have been doing this for months. He used to get it right most of the time.

But lately he's just impossible. EVERY time I say sit, he lies down. I either lure him up into a sit, or I tell him 'no that's not it', encourage him to get up and then ask him again.

Sometimes, after about 4-5 times of getting him up and asking again he will sit instead of lie down.

When I repeatedly lure him back up into a sit he doesn't get it. Ever. He always lies down.

Hoping someone can shed some light on this, because I really have no clue as to how he got confused about it. More importantly, how do I fix it?

For the record, once he is sitting, he remains sitting until released.


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## Bird-Dog (Dec 24, 2008)

Instead of luring back up to a sit or telling him "no" I'd just wait until he got in the position I wanted. He might be learning that "sit" means: 1) lay down, 2) now wait for human to do their part (lure back up), 3) okay all done... OR that "sit" means down but "sit....sit.....sit.....sit....sit...." means butt on the ground. 

Give the command once, wait for him to deliver. If you don't acknowledge the down in any way he'll probably start offering up other behaviors as he tries to work out what you want. If he _really_ can't figure out what you mean, go back to square one and teach sit again the way you did the first time.

As for the how, do you do a lot of sit-down patterns? My gal knows that sit-down-roll over is a common pattern so she goes straight for the roll over (sometimes from a standing position) in an effort to give me what I want in record time.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't really have any advice, but do have a similar problem, lol. We caught Sydney the command "dead," which meant to lay down on her back and stay still (this was just for fun). Then we taught her "roll over," building off of the "dead" command. Well, now she won't do the "dead" command, because whenever we ask for it she takes it a step further and rolls over. I think partially she gets confused because they are so similar and partially people tend to be more impressed by "roll over" and so she likes doing it more. *shrugs*


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, first I would decide if you care or not whether you have a sit-stay AND a down-stay. I'm not being sarcastic at all. Personally, I want a "stay" out of my dogs and I don't care if they are sitting or laying down when they do it. So I've come to experiment with what each dog is naturally more likely to do and then just work on stay in that position from then on (either sit-stay or down-stay). I'm NOT saying that if I tell them to sit-stay and they lie down I don't care, I just don't ask for sit-stays from then on. In my case I really don't care if I have both. I'm never going to compete in obedience with my dogs and IMO it's highly unlikely I'll find myself in daily life in a position where it matters (where would they be able to sit that they couldn't lie down?). Pip does both equally well. Maisy can do a sit-stay but is shaky with it and greatly prefers to lie down. So far, Squash prefers to lie down. 

My other answer, because the instructors in the class I had Maisy in DID care very much and hammered this into me, is that for your sit stay just body block them -- step in after he sits and stand close enough right in front of him so that he physically can't lie down. And work on duration in the sit position in whatever manner you're already using but start over with just teeny tiny durations. Then when he can reliably hold some duration with you right there, gradually increase the distance by micro-increments. If he lies down, if you have a verbal negative marker, give it and go replace him in a sit-stay.

For the dog that lies down every time you ask for sit whether you're practicing stays or not, I had an instructor tell me to just really mix up sits, down-from-sit, down-from-stand, stands, and sit-from-downs so that they don't anticipate as much what they think you want.


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## sarahspins (Apr 6, 2009)

You need to make more effort to teach a sit and a down separately.. make a game out of going from a sit to a down, and from a down back to a sit, and you can even teach a stand too, and re-enforcing that a sit-stay is seated, not down. You can do a down-stay too, or even a stand-stay.

Hands signals can also do a lot to help your dog cue in on what you want...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I have been working on sit/stays lately, and my puppy ALWAYS lies down when asked to sit. Without fail.


S/He doesn't understand sit. I would reteach it from the beginning to re-explain the behavior to the puppy.

Seems like s/he's understanding it to be a sit, then either stay = lie down or sit then lie down.

With Wally, I shaped/captured it - when he sat, I marked and rewarded immediately. Got him to follow, then when waited for the sit, mark/reward immediately, etc. 

I would spend days doing this, literally like 50 of them, speeding up (and slowing down randomly) the whole cycle to keep it interesting and keep him alert. Taking a break, then starting it up again. Just drilling it into him until it's second nature.

This taught him sit = butt on the ground and that's it. No lying down, no popping back up. Butt down and stop. 

Then I put the cue to it. I knew he'd sit when I stopped moving so I stopped, said "sit" he did it, mark/reward immediately. Then it was days of that.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

lil_fuzzy said:


> EVERY time I say sit, he lies down.


If he does this so perfectly and without fail as you say, .. then why not keep that as is, and teach him that the "down" cue = a sit ? ... turn him into one of those comical trick dogs who does everything bass ackwards :rockon:



OK, :doh: back to reality 

lol


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

petpeeve said:


> If he does this so perfectly and without fail as you say, .. then why not keep that as is, and teach him that the "down" cue = a sit ? ... turn him into one of those comical trick dogs who does everything bass ackwards :rockon:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey, why not - it's all relative as far as the dog thinks of it anyway  

Cue for a "real" sit could be "park it" or "butt down" lol

Dog won't care as long as he gets rewarded for his work  That's why they are so awesome.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> If he does this so perfectly and without fail as you say, .. then why not keep that as is, and teach him that the "down" cue = a sit ? ... turn him into one of those comical trick dogs who does everything bass ackwards :rockon:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was actually thinking this myself. Keep "sit" as your down command and then reteach sit using some other word and hand gesture. Unless you're planning to compete, problem is solved!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I have been working on sit/stays lately, and my puppy ALWAYS lies down when asked to sit. Without fail.
> 
> I have no idea why, as sit was the first thing I taught him, and he didn't learn down until several weeks later. I know I would never have let him get away with lying down instead of sitting. I have always lured him back up into a sit when he has done. I must have been doing this for months. He used to get it right most of the time.
> 
> ...


What's the reinforcement history for down? If it's strong (and one of the more recent things he's learned), he might be offering a down thinking that's what earns a reward. When Tag was learning "stand" he'd usually offer a back up (the thing he learned last), I think because the rate of reinforcement was so high with what he'd previously learned. I'd go back to square one and re-teach sit from scratch, reinforcing heavily. Tag decided one day that "finish" (go around me and stop/sit in heel position) was a horrible, horrible thing. So I re-taught it, and gave it a new word ("Around"). Problem solved. I still don't get WHY he decided Finish was scary and Around was fun...if only they could talk.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. 

I definitely want both a sit/stay and a down/stay, as we are thinking about obedience (or some type of sport) down the track. Once he's sitting, he sits until released, so his sit/stay is actually pretty good. It's just getting him to sit that is the issue. And he also does a down when I say 'down' so he thinks 'sit' and 'down' are the same thing...

In everyday life, he doesn't sit much, so it's difficult to capture. This is because we have tiles in most of the house, and he can't sit on the tiles without sliding backwards, so he always lies down. So he's either on his feet playing and doing stuff, or he's lying down. I only ask him to sit when we are on carpet.

I don't do a lot of sit > down with him, I usually ask for a sit inbetween other stuff, like give up toy > sit OR down > take toy, or get off bed > sit OR down > get on your bed. 

Something that is also weird, on walks I always ask him to sit at crossing and whenever I have to untangle his lead, and he then sits perfectly when I say 'sit'. When I say 'down' he downs. So it seems to me that he knows what 'sit' means, just not around the house. And it's a perfect tuck sit too, not a sloppy puppy sit like he does at home.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> In everyday life, he doesn't sit much, so it's difficult to capture.


If he does it once, it can be captured. I bet once he gets rewards for it, he'll offer it more 

You could always teach it on the carpet, master it, then teach it on the tile. I know what that's like, Wally's back feet slide too, but he holds it - it just looks...less nice lol

Or if you have any throw rugs, draft them into the service of teaching sit. 

Also, what will he do if you just stand around with him? Would he sit then on his own? 




lil_fuzzy said:


> Something that is also weird, on walks I always ask him to sit at crossing and whenever I have to untangle his lead, and he then sits perfectly when I say 'sit'. When I say 'down' he downs. So it seems to me that he knows what 'sit' means, just not around the house. And it's a perfect tuck sit too, not a sloppy puppy sit like he does at home.


Put the leash on and "walk" him in the house. Stop at a crossing, like where a room entrance leads into the hall or something, and ask him to sit - see if he does it perfectly in the house then. He might - but if he doesn't nothing is harmed - but it could be that crack in the door of his mind that you can then wedge into.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I prefer the capture method, but not sure why. The lure method is recommended more frequently. 

Make the assumption that dogs don't generalize (yet), so you have to re-teach sit in the kitchen, in the living room, at the door, at the gate, at the garage, etc. That may help....

I believe that if you teach a young puppy lots of behaviors, then he will eventually learn to generalize, also.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

If I stand around with him, he will lie down. At least on the tiles, I think maybe on carpet he would sit, but I haven't really noticed. I will check

I like the walking around the house on leash, I will try that

I lured the sit originally, not sure why, because I have shaped or captured every behaviour since then. I have since started to really dislike luring behaviours, because the dogs start to depend on the hand signal, they won't do it without the hand signal, it takes AGES to add the cue, and even when they do understand the cue, the handsignal has then become part of the cue and is nearly impossible to fade out. I have promised myself to never lure a behaviour again.

Edit/Update: Turns out he does know sit still. Or maybe he just re-learnt it really quickly. I made some salmon based dog treats and I while cutting them up I got my other dog to alternate between sit and down. Obi of course wanted some as well, so I asked him to sit. He lay down. I got him up, asked again, and he lay down again. I got him up again, asked again and he then sat. And after that he would go from sit to down to sit etc. He did tend to get stuck in the down and was rather reluctant to get up, but if he was already up he sat when I asked him to.

Only on the tiles though, as soon as I moved onto carpet he only wanted to lie down. I was walking him up the hallway, asking him to sit at regular intervals, which he did perfectly (tuck sits too, yay) but as soon as we reached my office which has carpet, he stopped being able to think, and would run into my office and down on his bed. After doing that 3 times he realised he wasn't getting rewarded for that, so he stayed in the doorway with me. I asked for a sit, he lay down. I took one step back so we were back on the tiles, asked for a sit, he sat perfectly. Took one step forward so he was half on carpet, asked for a sit, he lay down.


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## Pareeeee (Sep 29, 2009)

EXACTLY what Fidget does. We say "Sit" and she lays down. Doesn't matter if you say 'no' or ignore her when she does it, she will just keep laying there looking at you with a stupid look on her face. I don't really know how to fix it but it's funny to see someone else has the same annoying problem lol.

Fidget also doesn't seem to know how to go from 'lay down' back to 'sit'...


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I'm interested in what body position you are in when you ask for the sit in relation to Obie. Next to him? In front of him? Tilted forward? It's very possible that there is some social pressure happening with YOUR body in some situations that is "bodywise" cuing the down instead of the sit. 

All the other points are relevant...generalization takes time, most pups will offer behaviour that they recently worked on or had a better reinforcement history of etc. I just find that if you've looked at all the other variables already and cannot get a solution that it's often something the handler is unconsciously cuing. We had a lady with a 6month old GSD that was having trouble with a sit/stay combo...every time she tried to add distance (step away, step back) the pup would break. Turns out she was very slightly tilting toward the dog on the step away and this was physically prompting the dog to come to her...so she consciously stayed upright on her step away and the dog did her stay without a break.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I have been working on sit/stays lately, and my puppy ALWAYS lies down when asked to sit. Without fail.
> 
> I have no idea why, as sit was the first thing I taught him, and he didn't learn down until several weeks later. I know I would never have let him get away with lying down instead of sitting. I have always lured him back up into a sit when he has done. I must have been doing this for months. He used to get it right most of the time.
> 
> ...


lol I have this problem too with Brady. What I figured out is that HE thought that lying down would always get him more... because down is the position he must be in for me to enter his play area, wait for his food, and to ask to get on the sofa... I completely stopped telling him down for a training session and did 15 minutes of walk, sit, walk, sit. Also, I put a hand signal to both sit and down, which has helped a lot. Sit is distinctly different from down. He still cannot sit/stay, he always goes to a down if i tell him stay...he'll do a sit/wait (at the door), but yeah. working on it!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Usually a dog that does this has been allowed to break the sit into a down. If your dog routinely breaks from a sit to a down on the tiles, then he may have inadvertently taught himself it was OK to go to a down from a sit. To that end it sounds like this dog I would not EVER put in a down from the sit. You want to sit to be distinct. I would work on the sit and I would not lure him into the sit any more. Lure are for a couple of times and then lure go away. Luring does not always teach the dog anything except to follow the lure. 

At this point I would probably correct the dog. This need not be harsh but if the dog went down when asked to sit, I would reposition him and when he was in proper position reward it (you have a small dog so this shoud be easy to do and not at all mean). I would also get him in a sit and then work on oppostional reflex work. IOW's get him to fight to stay in a sit.. and when he fights I would let him know he got it right by saying long and low "Gooood sit." Of course this assumes he understands that good is "you are doing it right.. keep doing it."


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> Usually a dog that does this has been allowed to break the sit into a down. If your dog routinely breaks from a sit to a down on the tiles, then he may have inadvertently taught himself it was OK to go to a down from a sit. To that end it sounds like this dog I would not EVER put in a down from the sit. You want to sit to be distinct. I would work on the sit and I would not lure him into the sit any more. Lure are for a couple of times and then lure go away. Luring does not always teach the dog anything except to follow the lure.
> 
> At this point I would probably correct the dog. This need not be harsh but if the dog went down when asked to sit, I would reposition him and when he was in proper position reward it (you have a small dog so this shoud be easy to do and not at all mean). I would also get him in a sit and then work on oppostional reflex work. IOW's get him to fight to stay in a sit.. and when he fights I would let him know he got it right by saying long and low "Gooood sit." Of course this assumes he understands that good is "you are doing it right.. keep doing it."


I can position him in a sit, I have made him sit during shaping sessions, and while sitting I will hold his legs and gently try to lift them, and reward him when he resists. There is no problem once he is sitting, he will sit as long as I keep rewarding him, I can walk around him in a circle, jump up and down, go out of sight briefly etc.

It's just getting the sit in the first place that is the problem. I agree that luring is a pretty pointless exercise.



Cracker said:


> I'm interested in what body position you are in when you ask for the sit in relation to Obie. Next to him? In front of him? Tilted forward? It's very possible that there is some social pressure happening with YOUR body in some situations that is "bodywise" cuing the down instead of the sit.
> 
> All the other points are relevant...generalization takes time, most pups will offer behaviour that they recently worked on or had a better reinforcement history of etc. I just find that if you've looked at all the other variables already and cannot get a solution that it's often something the handler is unconsciously cuing. We had a lady with a 6month old GSD that was having trouble with a sit/stay combo...every time she tried to add distance (step away, step back) the pup would break. Turns out she was very slightly tilting toward the dog on the step away and this was physically prompting the dog to come to her...so she consciously stayed upright on her step away and the dog did her stay without a break.


Interesting. I don't think I am leaning towards him, but I will be extra aware of it next time I do it. I usually have him in front of me, but sometimes I also ask while standing at the kitchen counter and he is behind me or to the side. I will experiment with it later


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Do you have a word you use when the dog does not do the correct thing? I use "eh eh" or, with Atka (who is on a clicker), "that's not it" and she will look at me as if to say, "Waddya mean thats not IT!???" 

I would handle this one of two ways. You can teach a word that indicates the dog got it wrong and no reward is forth coming (do NOT repeat the command) so when he goes down he can be let know that is not what you asked. Fact is, I would train the "not right" word and if he went down, give the "not right" cue and walk away (game over). 

OR you can correct him by _immediately_ repositioning him to the sit (not saying a word) and when he is in the sit rewarding and letting him know that is correct. Fact is, I would have a leash on him and hold it tight enough so that if he tried to go down, he could not (this would allow him to self correct) and IMMEDIATELY reward when his butt hits the pavement. Rinse and repeat. IMO this will allow the dog to succeed and that tends to teach a dog more than correcting after the fact, modeling the dog or correcting with a word. It is still a correction but the dog essentially delivers the correction at precisely the right time as he starts to go down. The correction is when he hits the end of the leash and cannot go down.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> Do you have a word you use when the dog does not do the correct thing? I use "eh eh" or, with Atka (who is on a clicker), "that's not it" and she will look at me as if to say, "Waddya mean thats not IT!???"
> 
> I would handle this one of two ways. You can teach a word that indicates the dog got it wrong and no reward is forth coming (do NOT repeat the command) so when he goes down he can be let know that is not what you asked. Fact is, I would train the "not right" word and if he went down, give the "not right" cue and walk away (game over).
> 
> OR you can correct him by _immediately_ repositioning him to the sit (not saying a word) and when he is in the sit rewarding and letting him know that is correct. Fact is, I would have a leash on him and hold it tight enough so that if he tried to go down, he could not (this would allow him to self correct) and IMMEDIATELY reward when his butt hits the pavement. Rinse and repeat. IMO this will allow the dog to succeed and that tends to teach a dog more than correcting after the fact, modeling the dog or correcting with a word. It is still a correction but the dog essentially delivers the correction at precisely the right time as he starts to go down. The correction is when he hits the end of the leash and cannot go down.


I don't have a no reward marker, but I think I will teach him one. It sounds like something that would be handy



Cracker said:


> I'm interested in what body position you are in when you ask for the sit in relation to Obie. Next to him? In front of him? Tilted forward? It's very possible that there is some social pressure happening with YOUR body in some situations that is "bodywise" cuing the down instead of the sit.
> 
> All the other points are relevant...generalization takes time, most pups will offer behaviour that they recently worked on or had a better reinforcement history of etc. I just find that if you've looked at all the other variables already and cannot get a solution that it's often something the handler is unconsciously cuing. We had a lady with a 6month old GSD that was having trouble with a sit/stay combo...every time she tried to add distance (step away, step back) the pup would break. Turns out she was very slightly tilting toward the dog on the step away and this was physically prompting the dog to come to her...so she consciously stayed upright on her step away and the dog did her stay without a break.


I asked him to sit while making sure my body didn't move at all, and that I was completely upright and not staring him down or leaning forward or anything like that, with the same result. He lay down.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Like I said, hold the leash with little slack so he cannot go down. Reward profusely when butt hits the floor.


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