# Why are people afraid of pitbulls????



## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbull, lol! I can see why but I wish they weren't. I live in a townhouse and i had my girlfriends mutt (chow/lab mix) chained up in the back yard, and our neighbors had their sheepdog chained up too. Well when I put Butch(my Brindle Pitbull) on the chain and as soon as I swapped out my dogs the owner of the other dog came out side and visited with me, I knew it was because I had put butch outside, and Butch was just chillin, being the 17 week old 52 pound puppy that he is, lol!! And then i took Butch inside and put my 13 week old rednose "Baby" outside so she could do her business too. She is also the most dominant out of the pack, and the smallest so far, lol. But she has those (im gonna kill you) look in her eyes, so she kept looking at the neighbors dog as if she was gonna break the chain. She would probably tried to knock the other dog down a few pegs because she is more dominant, but this is why i keep them chained up. I guess he didnt like that so he picked up their dog and went inside, I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbulls, sorry this is so long. I just had to come tell everyone about this, lol!!!


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Brindle_APBT said:


> I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbull, lol! I can see why but I wish they weren't. I live in a townhouse and i had my girlfriends mutt (chow/lab mix) chained up in the back yard, and our neighbors had their sheepdog chained up too. Well when I put Butch(my Brindle Pitbull) on the chain and as soon as I did that he came out side and visited with me, I knew it was because I had put butch on there, and Butch was just chillin, being the 17 week old 52 pund puppy that he is, lol!! and then i put my 13 week old rednose "Baby" on there, who is the most dominant out of the pack, and the smallest. But she has those (im gonna kill you) look in her eyes, so she kept looking at the neighbors dog as if she was gonna break the chain and go crazy, of course she woundt do anything but try to mount their dog and be more dmoniant, but i guess he didnt like that so he picked up their dog and went inside, I dont understand why peopl are so afraid of pitbulls, sorry this is so long. I just had to come tell everyone about this, lol!!!


The way you are describing the situation, I would be afraid and bring my dog inside too.....


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

there i retyped what i had said, i guess it didnt make much sense if anyone else would have read it, but now it makes more sense, sorry for the confusion, lol!!!


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I like Pitbulls alot. But if there was one that was acting any way aggressive to my dogs I would take my dogs away too. Pits are known to be dog aggressive, and without proper socialization and a watchful owner there could be desaster ( Im not saying that your not a watchful owner, just that I prefer not to assume with out knowing and end up with dead dogs)


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Well as you put it your female has the "im gonna kill you" look in her eyes, you may know that she is more dominant but that whole "wants to knock the other dogs down a few pegs" is what people are afraid of. Usually when pit bulls try to knock other dogs or people down a few pegs, that when the headlines happen. Not that your dogs would hurt the other (being a puppy I'm sure the other dog would so more damage), but as you say she has the look of a killer then how do you know she wouldn't hurt the other dogs when she gets bigger?
I think your neighbour loves their dogs and wouldn't want anything to happen to them so they are doing what they think is safe. Maybe you should talk to them and explain that they are puppies and need to be socialized so maybe you can put your dogs on leashes and let them sniff eachother and say hi instead of keeping them chained and far apart where no one will be friendly. You should also consider puppy classes and obedience training. Talk to your neighbour and keep things friendly, maybe they will have a change of heart.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Some dogs to want to be "knocked down a few pegs" and then the doo-doo really hits the fan.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

RonE said:


> Some dogs to want to be "knocked down a few pegs" and then the doo-doo really hits the fan.


Maybe I missed or read something wrong but you think some dogs WANT to be knocked down a few pegs?? I do not agree. It is the owners that cause the problem with the pit breed that and the fact that they many times when grown up are naturally agressive towards other dogs.

Unless I know the owner is responsible I am afraid of pits. I guess other dogs can attack but I would much rather be attacked by a poodle or even a lab that a pit bull


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I highly doubt that ANY dog would WANT to be knocked down a few pegs.
Peace36, I have been attacked by a standard poodle, it put me and my boxer in the hospital. Bess had 13 stitches in the side of her face and I had to have 10 stitches in my wrist and 7 stitches on my chin. Being attacked by any dog is unpleasent but poodles have particulairly nasty bites in my experience. Because they have a long muzzle and they have rather scissor like teeth, they can do some serious damage. Pit bulls tend to have crushing bites which is just as painful (if not more if there are broken bones) as a tearing bite though. Personally I would rather not be bitten by any dog hehe! 
Brindle_APBT if your dogs are still just puppies, I would start socializing them asap with other dogs. Maybe your neighbour doesn't trust pit bulls because of a bad experience? Like I said yours are just pups so I am sure their dog could do more damage then yours but you really should talk to them and introduce your dogs to them and their dog or dogs to.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Cloef.......Sorry I did not mean to drudge up bad memories. I would not want be attacked by any dog either. From what you had just posted I guess a poodle was a poor choice to compare to a pit. I just kinda could picture fight back against a poodle would be easier to do that trying to stop a pit. But hopefully I will never find out. Gee all this talk makes me want to carry some sort of protection the next time I go walking. 

Maybe some lemon juice. I heard that could stop dog. You know if you spray it in their eyes.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

peace36 said:


> Maybe some lemon juice. I heard that could stop dog. You know if you spray it in their eyes.


DirectStop...haven't had a chance to use it yet, thankfully, but it's made for this and doesn't pose a liability threat like a mace alternative can.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I'm not afraid of pit bulls for myself, but I'm afraid of what they could do to my pup. 

The last time we were at a dog park, my dog was attacked by a pit or a pit mix of some kind. 

The owner just stood around, wringing her hands, while her dog chewed and peed on my dog. 

My boyfriend got a big stick, and broke up the fight. 

That dog was trying for Orchid's throat. If it had suceeded on its kill mission, I would have sued that woman for every penny that she had. 

THAT's why I'm afraid of pit bulls. Show me a sweet one that's not dog aggressive or dog dangerous, and I'll happily change my tune. 

However, unlike other people who blame the dog, I blame the owners and breders. Doberman Pinschers, Rotties, German Shephards, Chows, Bulldogs, and Great Danes were once in the same position that the Pit Bull is in now. 

Those breeds have improved, but ONLY due to the dillagence of a few, dedicated breeders.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Snowshoe, I absolutley agree with you about the other breed in the same position. Maybe when all the "be afraid be very afraid" hype dies down, then some responsible caring people can take over and show people just how wonderful pit bulls and other related breeds can be. 
Peace36 I work with dogs and cats and other small animals, it is the career I chose so any conversations about animals biting or clawing etc will dredge up a bad memoriy or a crazy story for me hehe but I have nothing against any breed of dog or animal for that matter. The only thing I don't like about poodles is their show cuts....they look so silly.  The reason pit bull bites are so serious is because they have very strong jaws and when they bite if they use their full bite potential they can do some VERY serious damage and this unfortunately is what the media plays up ALOT. They should be telling us why the dog bit the person not just the whole "crazy pit bull tears arm off owner" kind of stuff. Was the owner mis-treating the dog etc?
I have met mean and nice dogs of all breeds and none should be discriminated against. Just like people....everyone is different.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Snowshoe said:


> I'm not afraid of pit bulls for myself, but I'm afraid of what they could do to my pup.
> 
> The last time we were at a dog park, my dog was attacked by a pit or a pit mix of some kind.
> 
> ...


In Atlanta where I live, you see add's in the paper for Pit Bull puppies for sale for $100. You can bet that these dogs aren't bred well or trained at all.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

peace36 said:


> Maybe I missed or read something wrong but you think some dogs WANT to be knocked down a few pegs??


Sorry. Careless typo.

What I meant was, when an assertive (and not necessarily vicious) dog meets another with a similar disposition, and nobody wants to back down, there can only be trouble.

If I meet a pit bull I don't know, I'm automatically on guard, and it's partly because I have a dog who won't back down.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I was kind of confused by that also RonE. Thanks for clearing that up and yes I agree, always be on gueard if you have an assertive dog. Not to mean you always have to nervous and afraid that you dog will fight....just watchful.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

if i came across a Pit puppy (or any puppy, for that matter) that acted the way you described your little girl to be, i would be very leary of it as it was growing older.....this is a pup that has the potential to be trouble if it is not nipped in the bud (or butt, if you may) now......puppy classes are DEFINITELY in order here and i'd find someone that knows how to work w/ aggressive tendancies.....please, b/4 some other dog gets hurt by her when she is older, get her worked w/


a few mo back i had a foster Border that i was out at the DP w/ and there was a gal out there w/ her Pit (and, mind you, i love Pits and have never had any trouble w/ them b/4 this, but i have w/ many other breeds [mainly Retrievers]) and this dog, for no reason, took Fly down and tried to go for her throat.....i pulled her off and threw her aside (and, yes, i threw her) only to have her come back at Fly from the other side (Fly was standing there, on leash [she had a fractured leg], quietly watching my other dogs play).....at this point i smacked the Pit w/ my Chuck-it as hard as i could and then the dog went after an 8 mo Doodle pup that happened by......all the while the girl that owned it was just standing there doing nothing......when the Pit went after the Doodle, she (the Pit) grabbed the side of his neck and took him down.....i dropped Fly's leash grabbed the Pit's collar and hit it 2x w/ the Chuck-it to get it to let go....then told the girl to get the damn dog out of the park or put it on a leash.....she starts ranting that all her dog wanted to do was play (oh, so that's why the other dog was yelping)......so, you see why people are afraid of Pits?.....b/c people like that make it happen.....oh, just so you know?...this Pit was 7 mo old......


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Man, those are the people that aggravate the problem. 
I had to deal with a dog who attacked me and Chloe un-provoked some time ago and the owner yelled at me and said my dog provoked it. My little tiny 12 pounder who was on a leash and almost 100 meters away from the other dog (who was un-collared and un-leashed). The dog bit Chloe who turned and bit right back and when I picked Chloe up the other dog (a medium sized schnauzer about 20 pounds-ish) it kept jumping at Chloe trying to bite at her and me. The owner only came over when he saw me kick at his dog and pull out my cell phone. I was on the verge of tears I was so upset and he began to yell at me and say it was my fault and I should ahve called out to warn him I was comming.....I beg you pardon?? I have to warn you I am comming??? I think not, you should have your dog on a leash and if it is aggressive, a muzzle would be a good choice also.
I live off of a public park where all dogs must be leashed, but some people think they are immune to this rule. Don't get me wrong there are some people who have great dogs and let them off their leads because they can trust their dog to come when called but then you get others like that moron and the lady who you came across tirluc, who can't control their dogs at all and should NEVER have them off a lead.
I agree with tirluc though.....socialize, train and puppy classes. Make sure she learns her doggy manners and make sure they know who is boss.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I'm not afraid, per se, of any dog breed. 

I believe I am more likely to get bit by a Pomeranian or Chihuahua. But if pittie were to bite me, I'm pretty sure it'd require more than a good scrubbing and a bandaid like a bite from a toy breed. (A coworker described being bit by a Chihuahua as "being attacked by a staple remover.") So while I'm cautious around all dogs who don't know me, a little extra caution is necessary when a dog can do actual physical harm.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

LOL thats a good comparison...a staple remover.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Lorina said:


> a little extra caution is necessary when a dog can do actual physical harm.


Let's not dance around this. A pit bull can kill you. 

Most won't want to but, unless you know the dog, you have no way of knowing for sure.

I have immense respect for powerful animals and the owners who keep them and train them well, but it's a huge leap of faith to put yourself, your family or your dog in harms way just because somebody's told you that most pit bulls are very well-behaved.

There was a dog fighting ring broken up in Rock County Wisconsin a couple of years ago and the rescued dogs, some of them rather mutilated, were available for adoption. I was talking to a friend who is a vet tech and dog trainer and I wondered out loud what kind of person would adopt a fighting pit bull. She told me she'd rather be in a room full of pit bulls than with a single *****, ***** or *****.

(I won't win any friends here by mentioning the breeds she named.)


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

There are ALOT of breeds that are capable of killing a person.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Of course - mine is probably one of them - but there are 3-4 breeds that are responsible for 85% of the fatal dog attacks on humans.*

We all know that pit bulls were not bred to attack humans, but I'm just a tad leary of a breed that was bred to attack dogs.

*Edit: I'm not sure I have the statistics to back up that statement, so I think I'd better let this one go for now. Unlike my dog, I know when to back down.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Thats understandable. I am also a bit leary of picking dog breeds that were bred for fighting, protection etc. I am VERY picky when I choose puppies of those types of breeds. Even some types of hunting dogs should be chosen with caution. I just don't like the whole "all pit bulls are dangerous" attitude. And I'm not saying that that is what you attitude or opinions are saying to me because I understand where you are comming from and I don't think that is what you are saying. Its the others who are soo afraid of them that they think we should just eradicate the entire bred that are wrong. Like I said, if we got rid of everything that could harm a person there would be no life on this planet.
I have owned a German Shepherd, a boxer, a beagle/lab mix and catahoula leopard dog. Right now I have a maltese/toy poodle and a cocker spaniel mix. In my personal opinion (say what you want its ok) I think a dogs behavior is 30% them and 70% owner.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Before I even get onto the topic of pitbulls, I must ask why the dogs are chained up?

Well known fact: Chains on dogs = aggression

I would be leary of ANY dog tied up, ESPECIALLY acting in that manner.

I own a pit, and I totally understand why people are fearful of APBT, AST, EST etc. They are breeds designed for doing major damage and being extremely high up in the end of pain tolerance.

My bitch was attacked by an EST during school. The dog was seemingly unprovoked and had quite a grip on my girls neck. Thank God she's got rottie thick skin!

I've seen pitbulls going ape wild on the main street in my town. I've heard many a story of pitbulls attacking.

Pitbulls were bred to kill other dogs.

Just as many people are afraid of GSD's or Dobies, because they were bred for human protection, dogs who are bred to be wary of strangers and show their concern in an intimidating way if they or their owner is threatened.

I don't blame anyone for being scared of pitbulls. BUT, I do have a problem with people who are completely ignorant, and have their nose stuck up in the air about the issue.

Meet my dog. He won't jump on you. He won't run up to you in a threatening manner. He may lick you and roll onto his back for a belly rub though


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

peace36 said:


> Unless I know the owner is responsible I am afraid of pits. I guess other dogs can attack but I would much rather be attacked by a poodle or even a lab that a pit bull


Why poodles labs huskies collies can do just as much damage. Personally its ignorence from yout o belive that one dog is safer to be attacked by then another. that is ignorent.

Thats like Saying I would rather be beat up with a basball bat then shot, either one can be very fatal, both pose a very bad risk if used in the wrong hands.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

That is true, dogs who are chained cannot get to eachother in order to investigate eachother or the rest of their surrondings. They can get very frustrated and even feel as if they are being provoked if people or other dogs stand there staring at them all chained up and they may even feel threatened, on a chain = no way to get away. If you are worried they will jump the fence then supervise them outside and when socializing your pups you should ALWAYS be present when there are other dogs around.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

RonE said:


> Let's not dance around this. A pit bull can kill you.


ANY breed CAN and more then likly has killed.

And why not mention other breeds names?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Chloef- Exactly. Chains will muddle dogs' body language. Also, like you've mentioned, for a dog who is submissive, the flee option is cancelled out and their only option is to fight. (Often people say their dog is aggressive on leash, but fine off leash with other dogs) This is why.

Tankstar- While I agree, and I am on the pitbulls side..

There are a tonne of large breeds out there that could do a tonne of damage. But it's unfortuante that breeds like rotts, dobes, pits, GSD's etc, are more *common.* Presa's are less rare, but we all know the damage they can cause.

It's quite simple. More dogs in a particular area? of course the more incidents your going to hear about them.

Also look at the majority of people who own pitbulls. I know many people who aren't like this, but I also know a bunch that are: uneducated about the breed, like it because it's such a muscular dog, like the fact that it looks menacing etc.

All of which are not great reasons to choose a breed.

The odds are definitely against the pitbull.

I just hope that there are enough responsible pit owners out there to make up for all of the bad.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Well chains are not great. It sounds like the OP does not keep them chained, He said he brought one dog in and put the other out. Maybe he doesnt have a fenced in yard. When we first moved to my house there was no back yards up at all as it is (was) all brand new units. And our dogs had to be chained up while outside. If we didnt the collie would have ran after the first dog or skatebord she seen and proceded to attack them. yes my big fluffy supposidly very friendly breed would have killed if given the chance to. she did kill many small animals.



Alpha said:


> Chloef- Exactly. Chains will muddle dogs' body language. Also, like you've mentioned, for a dog who is submissive, the flee option is cancelled out and their only option is to fight. (Often people say their dog is aggressive on leash, but fine off leash with other dogs) This is why.



You know I never thought about the leash thing. my dog acts tough on leash barks and lunges at dogs if I dont use full control, but off leash he does a 360 and loves other dogs.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Same here, when we first moved to our house we stil had Bess our boxer, we had to chain her for a few days because our fence had been torn down. If people were on the property we would ask them not to tease her or stand just out of her reach, we told people either go and talk to her and pet her and interact or please ignor her completely, even though she was almost nine years old we did not want her to associate the leash/chain with bad things.
I don't find it unbeievable that you collie would chase things or even catch certain critters and kill them (poor things though). Many hearding dogs will give chase and dogs will be dogs, if they see a little critter and they give chase when they catch it chancs are it won't last long. Chloe routinely catches and kills mice and rats in our back yard and leaves them on the back stoop for us. I'm sure if she could she would catch and kill all the squirrels and cats in the neighbourhood too hehe


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Alpha said:


> Tankstar- While I agree, and I am on the pitbulls side..
> 
> There are a tonne of large breeds out there that could do a tonne of damage. But it's unfortuante that breeds like rotts, dobes, pits, GSD's etc, are more *common.* Presa's are less rare, but we all know the damage they can cause.
> 
> ...


 I agree alot of people who own them (not all mind you, but a good majority of them) own them for many bad reasons. I think alot has to do with style right now (Like prissy girls and their chis in purses kinda style) if you watch any music video with dog in it, you will see these beefed up muscluer pittbulls attacking each other attacking other people and all this. So these wanna be gangster teenagers now a days get one becuase snoop dog or dr dre ect has one. They want them to act like that. It is sad to ruin such a great breed. Yes they were breed to be dog aggressive. but they were also breed to be VERY good with humans. Since humans had to be in the "pit" with the fighting dogs, you couldnt have a dog turn on a handler.

I agree you hear alot about them now for 2 reasons. Depending ont he area they may out number other breeds of dogs 1/3 or so. And media, media will feed on what ever sells. right now the poor pitbulls have to deal with the unkind media and their words and judgment they put on to print.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

MEDIA is the devil when it comes to pits!

On another forum, there was an article about how easily the media will big up and make a huge deal out of a pitbull attack. (My local cable network did this, and aired an apology because of all the calls they got, a number of quite irritated calls from yours trully, LOL)

I initially called just asking the specifics of the attack. It was a 3 year old pitbull mix who killed it's 80 year old owner.

I ask pretty easy questions. HOw long had they had the dog? Was he adopted? If so, were they warned/educated about pitbulls?

Was there a bone or special toy around when the attack happened? etc.

The news station had no idea, yet they played up the big bad pitbull. (It was a terrible tragedy don't get me wrong)

But with the questions I asked, you see where I was clearly going. It could've been any dog. It's a good possibility that they adopted a dog who was abused, or had problems. Maybe they knew this, maybe the shelter was a fault for not telling them etc.

The article I was speaking about before, said they had some fundraiser for pitbulls who work as therapy dogs, are Canine Good Neighbors etc. The people had called the local area network to get some good pitbull coverage, and the network wanted nothing to do with it.

Pitbulls killing is what gets ratings. Not pitbulls working as therapy dogs.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

That is a terrible tragedy. But like you said could have happened with pretty much any breed, at 80 years old you are frail and not as "healthy" as you once were, so any dog attack could, and more then likly would be fatal.
Media dosnt ask questions. WHy bother they assume, the paper sells better with ahead line of *pittbill atacks and kills its loving owner* instead of *Terrible tragedy, a owner of a dog accidently stepped on the dogs rear leg, causing said dog to attack and fataly harm its owner* 

Anothe rproblem is. People to quickly automaticly assume a dog fight or bite was a pitbull. So most who dont know dog breeds, cry wolf so to say and blame the pittbull. So many mixed breed dogs or even pure breed dogs get called pittbulls when infact they are not even close. bulldogs, cane corsos, boxers and even some chocolate and black labs. or black mouth curs. And why becuase they get cropped ears probably. Its disgusting how much people just point a finger with out knowing the real thing such as breed.


I found this (I know that there is a better one out there some where i cant for the life of me find the link) I also think that the media should air somthing like this and have people call/text/email their answers in and have a poll going to see how many people actually get the pittbull correct. 

But find the pittbull.
http://www.loveofbreeds.com/Dog/PitBullFinder.html


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Yes there was a local story not to long ago bad mouthing a rescue organization that has rescued some dogs from a dog fighting pit. Some of the dogs were rehabilitated and adopted out and one dog ended up attacking the neighbour of the owner and killing two neighbourhood dogs. The media told people that this dog was a pit bull and was a fighting dog and had been rescued and not destroyed. I did some research of my own and found out that this dog was NOT a pit, it was an akita and it was not used in the dog fighting but was found with its litter mates in a laundry basket in the bed of a pickup truck on the property. The news organization did appologize but not for bad-mouthing, it appologized for reporting a pit bull attack, it was actually an akita attack which their "sources" told them was also an aggressive, un-trustworthy and un-predictable breed.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Heres another good quiz... the pics are kinda low quality and it makes it hard to tell... but some people call a dog a pitbull while driving by... and it turns out to be a boxer or lab mix or something....
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

wow thats a hard one Wimble Wolf. I picked four wrong before I gave up and clicked them all to find out hehe.
I had a lady yell at me to muzle my poor Bess once when I was walking her down the street, when I asked her why she would say that she said all pit bulls should be muzzled because non are trustworthy....man that made my blood boil.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I did that too!!! LOL, the first one I picked was the Boxer ( dont tell Kita gurl lol)


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

yeah I picked the cane corso and the dogo argentino, they do look quite similar in the photos to a pit bull though so can you blame me??? hehe


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## Lokum (Jan 5, 2007)

I think this breed is known psycho they kill human so thats why I think.but in my apartment there is a pitt also and he listens his owner more than my dog


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> Heres another good quiz... the pics are kinda low quality and it makes it hard to tell... but some people call a dog a pitbull while driving by... and it turns out to be a boxer or lab mix or something....
> http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


got him right off the bat......to me he stands out like a "sore thumb".....


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Well after I looked at if for a bit longer I did see the pit kind of stood out. I was looking for cropped ears and docked tail kind of pit bull I should have known that it would be without, hehe. Oh well!


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Brindle_APBT said:


> I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbull, lol! I can see why but I wish they weren't. I live in a townhouse and i had my girlfriends mutt (chow/lab mix) chained up in the back yard, and our neighbors had their sheepdog chained up too. Well when I put Butch(my Brindle Pitbull) on the chain and as soon as I swapped out my dogs the owner of the other dog came out side and visited with me, I knew it was because I had put butch outside, and Butch was just chillin, being the 17 week old 52 pound puppy that he is, lol!! And then i took Butch inside and put my 13 week old rednose "Baby" outside so she could do her business too. She is also the most dominant out of the pack, and the smallest so far, lol. But she has those (im gonna kill you) look in her eyes, so she kept looking at the neighbors dog as if she was gonna break the chain. She would probably tried to knock the other dog down a few pegs because she is more dominant, but this is why i keep them chained up. I guess he didnt like that so he picked up their dog and went inside, I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbulls, sorry this is so long. I just had to come tell everyone about this, lol!!!


Because pits were breed to fight other dogs. Then your dog looks at his dog as lunch.....


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

The media has attached a stigma to them which makes people think they are al bad dogs. They were bred for fghting yes but its was said earlier just because you breed a dog to heard doesn't mean it will heard etc... The media can be a terribly destructive force, look at what happened after 9/11 they portrayed people of certain religions as being hate mongers and terrorists when it is completely un-true. The media these days gets away with murder if you ask me and I don't think we should tolerate that.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


> Heres another good quiz... the pics are kinda low quality and it makes it hard to tell... but some people call a dog a pitbull while driving by... and it turns out to be a boxer or lab mix or something....
> http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html



"All dogs have been picked from breeders' websites and should be good representatives of their breed."

Ah yes are white boxer........ From akc website "Disqualifications Boxers that are any color other than fawn or brindle. Boxers with a total of white markings exceeding one-third of the entire coat."

Also some of those dogs look like brindle pits which the small low rez pictures you can't tell.....


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I think the websites were put in place ebcause some people think any dog that has certain look should be labeled and people will run away which is not right. 
Lets not get AKC and CKC and UKC junk involved in that.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Chloef_2799 said:


> The media has attached a stigma to them which makes people think they are al bad dogs. They were bred for fghting yes but its was said earlier just because you breed a dog to heard doesn't mean it will heard etc... The media can be a terribly destructive force, look at what happened after 9/11 they portrayed people of certain religions as being hate mongers and terrorists when it is completely un-true. The media these days gets away with murder if you ask me and I don't think we should tolerate that.


The media generally tells people what has occurred. If PBs were not attacking dogs and people, the media would have nothing to say. Just in the county where I live, there have been 3 serious attacks in the last few months. In two of those attacks, the PB went after another dog, and the owner was also attacked when trying to protect their dog. In another case last fall, two PBs jumped their fence and went after a man and his dog as they walked down the street. Both he and his dog had to go to emergency rooms to have their wounds attended to. I think the man had something like 35 stitches on his arm. He stated that if his wife or child had been walking his dog at the time rather than he, he would have feared for their lives , "since it took all the strength he had to get away from the dogs". 

The media doesn't make up this stuff, it happens.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I never said they make things up, I meant they blow things out of proportion and they often tell rather strategic non-truths.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Chloef_2799 said:


> The media has attached a stigma to them which makes people think they are al bad dogs. They were bred for fghting yes but its was said earlier just because you breed a dog to heard doesn't mean it will heard etc... The media can be a terribly destructive force, look at what happened after 9/11 they portrayed people of certain religions as being hate mongers and terrorists when it is completely un-true. The media these days gets away with murder if you ask me and I don't think we should tolerate that.



Rottweilers were used to herd a long time ago. My rotty tried biting my ankles until I made him stop. It is in the blood....


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Well thats great but I still stick to the "breeds don't always do what they were bred to do" saying. Not all of them are bad and you CANNOT and WILL NOT be able to prove that all pit bulls are bad and that all pit bulls are murderers and savage beasts that should be wiped off the face of the planet. Just with Akitas, Chows, Rotties, GSD's, Dobermans etc. You don't wipe out one breed just because a few dogs have been improperly raised/trained and went on a rampage and seriously injured or killed someone, that is crap and its not fair.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Chloef_2799 said:


> I think the websites were put in place ebcause some people think any dog that has certain look should be labeled and people will run away which is not right.
> Lets not get AKC and CKC and UKC junk involved in that.



The website was made to trick people. When you say "should be good representatives of their breed" Then you have a red rottweiler and a white boxer? Come on. On top of the crappy little pictures...

I am sure that pits are pointed out wrong but people that don't know. When it makes it to the news I am sure the pound says what kind of dog it is.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

In my experience the media is not a very accurate representation of anything. They are biased just as we are. That is my opinion.

You never hear the media tell us WHY the dog attacked. Just that the dog attacked. If they do report why the dog attacked, it is VERY rare, they don't care why they wqant to story and all the gory detail so they can put horrid pictures and stories in front of us to read and than say crap like "this is the truth and we ALL deserve the truth." Whatever.
Me and my dog were attacked by an un-leashed dog who was twice the size of my dog and we were 100 meters or more away from the people walking in the other direction. The man said my dog was the aggressor and my dog should be destroyed because she was aggressive to. My dog bit and attacked that dog right back, not out of aggression out of sheer terror. And the reason she bit the other dog owner was because he was yelling at me very loudly and wouldn't stop trying to take my dog out of my arms to, as he said "examine her for bite wounds and take her to the vet for stitches just in case." My dog is not a mean dog, shes an effing toy poodle maltese mix. My point is any dog will bite, and there is a reason. It is not because "I'm a pit bull and I was bred for fighting so I'm gonna rip you apart because I feel like it."


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Chloef_2799 said:


> I think the websites were put in place ebcause some people think any dog that has certain look should be labeled and people will run away which is not right.


Like I said the pictures are crappy... but yes, how many dogs are mistaken to be pits?? Not everyone has registered dogs??? Mix anything with a Boxer and..... its a pit ( in the eyes of fearful media driven loudmouths ) Trust me Kita has been mistaken several times... and that mistake made by the wrong person could lead to her death... ( Province wide ban on Pitbulls)


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Exactly, people used to always asked me if bess was a pit bull and she was a perfect example of a boxer. People just don't know, they see one dog and automatically lable it. And I would even get peple say, well Boxers were dog fighters and bull baiters so they must be aggrsssive and un-trustworthy, not true......make me crazy!!!


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

They see brindle, short hair and a blocky head.... thats a Pitbull! Its discouraging... so much fear placed in a word, yet people dont even really know what they are.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I know and it keeps the members of the breed who really are good dogs back and muzzled and sterilized and chained and fenced like criminals just because of how they look. Its discrimination.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

ITs sad.... very sad. I just love seeing pics of Pitbulls without their muzzles, all we see here is muzzled prisioners.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Yes and when they are un-muzzled there are people running for the hills or yelling from far away "why is that animal not muzzled...it the law you know."


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Honestly I feel so bad for all the responsible loving and devoted Pitbull owners in Ontario (as well as other places, I know the fear is nation wide) it breaks my heart to see a Pit owner trying to socialize their dog and the poor thing is muzzled or no one will allow the dogs to play...

Heres a pic of the gurl I mentioned earlier, at my camp... playing wonderfully with my Rottie/Boxer ( gotta be a pit bull too) 
" look ma.... i taught my new friend to swim!!"


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Thats a great picture, they are both beautiful. See everyone? Show me the aggression or killer in those two faces? Theres none, only cuteness! I wish I had a digital camera or a scanner, i would put some pictures of my darlings past and present.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Captbob said:


> The media generally tells people what has occurred. If PBs were not attacking dogs and people, the media would have nothing to say. Just in the county where I live, there have been 3 serious attacks in the last few months. In two of those attacks, the PB went after another dog, and the owner was also attacked when trying to protect their dog. In another case last fall, two PBs jumped their fence and went after a man and his dog as they walked down the street. Both he and his dog had to go to emergency rooms to have their wounds attended to. I think the man had something like 35 stitches on his arm. He stated that if his wife or child had been walking his dog at the time rather than he, he would have feared for their lives , "since it took all the strength he had to get away from the dogs".
> 
> The media doesn't make up this stuff, it happens.


The media makes it worse then it was. WHy did the dog attack in the first palce? Wh oknows becuase the media dosnt say. Every breed attacks and has attacked people, but you dont hear it on the news, why? Becuase a pittbull will be a bigger selling point then a collie or a lab will be. labs and collies have the meda thinking they are safe family dogs and no ones buys one as a guard dog and trains them to be mean, unlike the pitbull, rotti and dobe. So obviously they will be in the news more often then other breeds. Media prints what will sell so if it is to put down the poor pitbull who was bred to be a family type of dog then they will. IMO pitbulls bred properly and rasied proeprly are no differnt then a collie or a toy poodle.



Wimble Woof said:


> Honestly I feel so bad for all the responsible loving and devoted Pitbull owners in Ontario


I agree. I hate seeing one muzzled, to me seeing a muzzled dog means they are mean and have it for a reason. I met a pit a few months ago. I went up to the wrong house my friend was at (went tot heir next door neighboors house) as soona s they opened the door who was there waiting witha wag of a tail, a pitbull. It was so happy I apoligized for going to the wrong house and I even talked to the guy for a fe wmins about how he was impressed that I wasnt afraid of his dog. Since I was scartching its ears and throwing a ball for it (it brought me a ball lol) then about 10 mins later I seen him walking him, with a huge muzzle on. And if I didnt just meet that dog i would just assume it was mean as it had the muzzle on. Muzzle through even more fear to people.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I agree 100%.
I often see people walking their dogs around here that have to keep them muzzled because they are pit bulls or pit bull mixes. Lots of people see the muzzled pit looking dog and walk across the street or far away from them and they are very well trained friendly dogs. Yet when they see other dogs muzled that are nothing like a pit bull (a lady a few doors down from me has a poodle beagle mix who has to be muzzled when in her back yard because he is so aggressive), who are very aggressive they assume o well not a pit bull lets see if i can pet him. I don't get it...


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

I always keep them chained up when i take them outside and now they are getting old enough where i have to keep them chained because they can seriously hurt someone. I do everything I can around my area to keep pitbulls around and to prevent them from getting banned, i would hate to be forced to get rid of my dogs just because of what they are.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Have you en-rolled them in any kind of obedience classes? Or made any attempts at socialization??? Thats what you need to worry about and that is what will help the pit bull breed out.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Brindle_APBT said:


> I always keep them chained up when i take them outside and now they are getting old enough where i have to keep them chained because they can seriously hurt someone. I do everything I can around my area to keep pitbulls around and to prevent them from getting banned, i would hate to be forced to get rid of my dogs just because of what they are.


Why would you be afraid of them hurting some one? Do you not socialize them with humanes and other dogs? Do you not train them or take them to classes?


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

Mace and lemon juice or bear spray should never be sprayed in any dogs eyes. Why? It can actually make a situation worse and a dog nastier if it is aleady being aggressive. Pits are only as dangerous as the owner and the dogs that do get out of hand have been made that way. The larger pits that you see with large link chains and super sized padlocks around their necks are being trained to attack and to fight. they wear the chain and padlock to build up shoulder strength. 

Pitbulls that have been properly socialized can be fantastic animals. Loyal, loving and full of energy. The only problem that i have had with ours as he ages is his desire to stick so close to my side that i end up being tripped. His constant pacing does not help either but it is only old age causing it. Pits get a bad rap as did Rotties years ago and GSD and various other breeds. It has to do alot with Media attention and how the general public views them


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

bearlasmom said:


> Pits get a bad rap as did Rotties years ago and GSD and various other breeds. It has to do alot with Media attention and how the general public views them


Exactly. Every 10 years or so a new breed is picked on. In a few years the pitbull frenzy will become old news, and the media will find another breed to pick on.


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

I also want both of them to be able to attack on my commad. Now dont take this the wrong way, but i want them to be like alot of German Shepards and police dogs. I Want them to be trained to a tee, lol!!! Is there like any classes I Could take them to??? I Just want a loyal dog that can be viscious only in the right ttime, say if someone was trying to attack me i can sick my dog on them, something like that. PLEASE dont take this the wrong way!!!


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Brindle_APBT said:


> I also want both of them to be able to attack on my commad. Now dont take this the wrong way, but i want them to be like alot of German Shepards and police dogs. I Want them to be trained to a tee, lol!!! Is there like any classes I Could take them to??? I Just want a loyal dog that can be viscious only in the right ttime, say if someone was trying to attack me i can sick my dog on them, something like that. PLEASE dont take this the wrong way!!!



http://www.vonsederhausrotts.com/newsletter.html


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Brindle_APBT said:


> I also want both of them to be able to attack on my commad. Now dont take this the wrong way, but i want them to be like alot of German Shepards and police dogs. I Want them to be trained to a tee, lol!!! Is there like any classes I Could take them to??? I Just want a loyal dog that can be viscious only in the right ttime, say if someone was trying to attack me i can sick my dog on them, something like that. PLEASE dont take this the wrong way!!!


I'm soprry but what is not to be taken the wrong way? Like we were all just saying inthe wrong hands they can be bad dogs. And obviously yout raining them to attack is not good. No wonder why people are afriad of most of them. Offcourse there is special classes. These are not GSD police dogs, these are a differnt breed completly. Why would you want them to attack? So if some one attacked you your dogs will get the death penalty by law becuase then they are vicouse killers? You should not own the breed IMO


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

its for me and my familys protection, and im pretty sure if someone was attacking you or your family, wouldnt you want your dog to attack them or just go hide. thtas just me opinion, i would want them to attack and bring them to the ground so im not forced to shoot them, lol!!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Anybody still wondering why people are afraid of pitbulls?

Please tell me you don't own a gun.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> I'm soprry but what is not to be taken the wrong way? Like we were all just saying inthe wrong hands they can be bad dogs. And obviously yout raining them to attack is not good. No wonder why people are afriad of most of them. Offcourse there is special classes. These are not GSD police dogs, these are a differnt breed completly. Why would you want them to attack? So if some one attacked you your dogs will get the death penalty by law becuase then they are vicouse killers? You should not own the breed IMO


I've heard of working pit bulls. Training the dog means you train when to attack. They aren't trained to just bite because they feel like it. You train them to bite when you say and no other time. It also means if your dog does bite someone it will be trained to release.

I will say if you train the dog and you tell him to attack someone it is just like shooting someone with a gun. The dog is a deadly weapon.

http://www.workingpitbull.com/training.htm


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

thank you for clearing that up fanman, that is exactly what im talking about!! And yes i do own a gun, for one I'm in the military and I live in NC, and of course just like anyone else I wont be carjacked or robbed, cartheft is really buig in NC.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Brindle_APBT said:


> I also want both of them to be able to attack on my commad. Now dont take this the wrong way, but i want them to be like alot of German Shepards and police dogs. I Want them to be trained to a tee, lol!!! Is there like any classes I Could take them to??? I Just want a loyal dog that can be viscious only in the right ttime, say if someone was trying to attack me i can sick my dog on them, something like that. PLEASE dont take this the wrong way!!!


That's a pretty specialized type of training. I'm not sure if you'll find a video or a book of much help. Would a specialized school be out of the question?


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## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

If you want a guard dog why did you get a pit bull?They should not be human aggresive. If you care about your breed the last thing you want is for them to be human aggresive.Your breed is in enough trouble already.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> That's a pretty specialized type of training. I'm not sure if you'll find a video or a book of much help. Would a specialized school be out of the question?


You can read about online.
http://leerburg.com/pdf/Schutzund.pdf

There are places that will train for protection work. It isn't cheap. I think it is better to work with a club because you get the opinions of a lot of people vs one. It is also a lot cheaper.



corsomom said:


> If you want a guard dog why did you get a pit bull?They should not be human aggresive. If you care about your breed the last thing you want is for them to be human aggresive.Your breed is in enough trouble already.


Please explain why the dog becomes human aggressive.


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## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

He says he wants his dog to be viscious at the right time and to sic it on someone to protect him. Do you realy think this breed needs that?Pit bulls are not meant to be human aggresive. Look at all the trouble this breed is in.Why would anyone want them to attack humans.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Brindle_APBT said:


> its for me and my familys protection, and im pretty sure if someone was attacking you or your family, wouldnt you want your dog to attack them or just go hide. thtas just me opinion, i would want them to attack and bring them to the ground so im not forced to shoot them, lol!!


I know my dog would protect me, And he is not trained to, he is trained to be gentle.

My point is you got this breed becuase you want a dangerous dog, well congrats you help make this breed of dog have a worse name. if your family got attacked, and your dog killed the person on your own property, you would be held responsible for this persons death, you would be charged with murder. I'm sorry but this breed already has a horrible reputation they dont deserve, people like you help them get this reputation, as they are people pleasing dogs and do what their owners ask of them. The were breed to be family dogs, not attack dogs of humans.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Grab it by the collar and hold on tight.... Save the lemons for the lemonade.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

corsomom said:


> He says he wants his dog to be viscious at the right time and to sic it on someone to protect him. Do you realy think this breed needs that?Pit bulls are not meant to be human aggresive. Look at all the trouble this breed is in.Why would anyone want them to attack humans.


That doesn't explain how bite work makes a dog human aggressive. Do you know anything about bite work? 




Tankstar said:


> if your family got attacked, and your dog killed the person on your own property, you would be held responsible for this persons death, you would be charged with murder.


Is this make stuff up day?


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

FranMan said:


> Is this make stuff up day?


I am not making that up. I have heard about it and even seen a show. where a lady had her property fenced in and her dogs chained up (while she was at work) with signs saying beware of dog. Some one went on her property got tore apart (killed) by the dogs. When she got ome she immeaditly phoned the police. they came out took her dogs (destroyed them). Then took her and her husband (children got taken to childrens aid) and they actually served about 8 or so years in jail for it. Lost there homes, jobs, children and dogs.

If some one gets hurt on your property, for what ever reasons why they went on, you are liable.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I'm not a lawyer and I don't even pretend to be one. I do watch Boston Legal when I can stay awake that late.

I think there might be a big legal difference, though, between someone who is eaten by your dog while trespassing and someone killed by a dog who is defending the owner from imminent danger.

Everybody has dogs for different reasons and I really do try to respect that. Personally, I don't want people to be afraid of my dog. In fact, I had a retail store for many years and my big lab came to work with me every day. (He was a much bigger draw than I was.)


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> I am not making that up. I have heard about it and even seen a show. where a lady had her property fenced in and her dogs chained up (while she was at work) with signs saying beware of dog. Some one went on her property got tore apart (killed) by the dogs. When she got ome she immeaditly phoned the police. they came out took her dogs (destroyed them). Then took her and her husband (children got taken to childrens aid) and they actually served about 8 or so years in jail for it. Lost there homes, jobs, children and dogs.
> 
> If some one gets hurt on your property, for what ever reasons why they went on, you are liable.


That is different then what you said. Here is what you said
"if your family got attacked, and your dog killed the person on your own property, you would be held responsible for this persons death, you would be charged with murder."

If your family is being attacked it is a whole different story. It would be the same a shooting the person. Do you have link to your story on a news site?


http://www.livinginperu.com/news/2128


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## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

No, I dont really know anything about bite work.what does that have to do with anything? The op came on asking why are people afraid of pit bulls? Come on, read his posts.People like him are the reason this breed is in so much trouble.He wants his dog to be viscous and sic him on people.Sounds like he wants a human agrresive dog to me.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

corsomom said:


> No, I dont really know anything about bite work.what does that have to do with anything? The op came on asking why are people afraid of pit bulls? Come on, read his posts.People like him are the reason this breed is in so much trouble.He wants his dog to be viscous and sic him on people.Sounds like he wants a human agrresive dog to me.



Doing bite work doesn't make a dog human aggressive. I didn't read all of his posts but going to a club with a bunch of hardcore dog people will make sure he goes the right way. They'll let him know if his dog isn't fit for it. If you read in to the bite work you'll know you have to have a well rounded dog. Good temper and good OB. It is a game to the dog not aggression per say. You want a dog that can eat a bad guy and then have a small kid pull it's hair (not recommended). The dogs should know the difference.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Dogs are naturally protective of their family... I dont see the logic in training them to attack on command for personal use... perhaps if you were participating in schutzhund or something but seriously... why do you want your dogs to attack on command???? And what situation would warrant this command???
I agree Pits have a bad enough reputation. Please dont take this type of training on alone. If you must train this... please seek a professional.


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## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

Fran man, I know what you are saying. My breeder has a pp dog, and he is a very stable dog, of course, he would have to be.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> You can read about online.
> http://leerburg.com/pdf/Schutzund.pdf
> 
> There are places that will train for protection work. It isn't cheap. I think it is better to work with a club because you get the opinions of a lot of people vs one. It is also a lot cheaper.


I've browsed that info a long time ago. My point was for specialized training like that it's better to not take it on alone. Whether a club is better than a school, I don't know, but I would prefer different opinions. Cost however, should be secondary to what the OP's goal is.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

FranMan said:


> That is different then what you said. Here is what you said
> "if your family got attacked, and your dog killed the person on your own property, you would be held responsible for this persons death, you would be charged with murder."
> 
> If your family is being attacked it is a whole different story. It would be the same a shooting the person. Do you have link to your story on a news site?
> ...


I dont as this was years ago when I heard of it, and dont even remember the breeds of dogs in it. My point is the people with the chained up dogs tookt he proper percaition. They fenced in there yard with 6 foot fence, they place numerous no tresspassing sigsn with beware of dog signs all over the plce. and the dogs were on 12 foot chains ont he porch, this person was trying to enter the house. Its not like the family was letting the dogs run free or at large, they knew they could do damage and took proper action. My point is your dog attacking anyone for what ever reason is like owning a weapon. Espeacially with pittbulls having such a bad rap at the moment. the second one kills some one no matter what the reasons, the media will take it out of control. The dog will be destroyed ASAP. and I bet you that he or any oen with a pitbull that attacks, will be charge with many things.

I'm sorry your link is not valid for anything, it is from peru, not canada or the states which is what I'm talking about. other countries do very differnt things. hell in many parts of the middle east a women is hung for stealing bread or showing a ankle. So other countries wont count in this topic


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> I dont as this was years ago when I heard of it,



So at this point it is just hear say?


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

From reading this forum the past few weeks, I've concluded that most people don't know how to train their dogs properly. Yes, there are a few of you who are experts. But most of us are just winging it as best we can.

That said, I will always assume that the owner of a pit bull, or other strong dog, is not doing it right. I assume that of a small dog owner as well, but a Yorkie or Maltese can't kill me. 

So I am afraid of pit bulls.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I've browsed that info a long time ago. My point was for specialized training like that it's better to not take it on alone. Whether a club is better than a school, I don't know, but I would prefer different opinions. Cost however, should be secondary to what the OP's goal is.


I wouldn't say they are schools, more like this guy http://www.vonhunterkennels.com/pages/training.htm

he prolly charges a lot to train a dog. He is the type of person you would find at a schutzhund meet. Schutzhund clubs should be a lot cheaper then just getting private PP work done. Cost is always a factor, there is no need to waste money. Now if you are rich I'll PM you my paypal addy


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi Fran Man some times you are too funny. I love reading your posts. Funny in a good way.

I did not read all the responses or I do not even think I read the original post.

I just noticed someone wrote "cost should'nt be a factor" HA!!! I guess their from a different world than me. 

You know now I am I guess hmm low to middle class so of course cost is always a facter like you said. BUT there was a time not all that long ago when I was financially speeking only, very upper class (all gone now ) BUT EVEN then I would not have just peed my $$$ away I still would consider cost a factor and not be wasteful


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

I didn't read everything but to answer the original question, they are afraid cause they're ignorant. Plain and simple.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

*Cheese*

Hey Nacho you got any cheese? Just kidding.

I am not ignorant. I think the Most not All owners are though and if I do know the owner and I see a pit walking around I am scared.

Cute dog, Pit Bull??


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

FranMan said:


> So at this point it is just hear say?


Not really since I read it and watched a TV show on it.

But years ago since I heard it since I havnt seent he articles pop up or the TV show again.



Kerry said:


> From reading this forum the past few weeks, I've concluded that most people don't know how to train their dogs properly. Yes, there are a few of you who are experts. But most of us are just winging it as best we can.
> 
> That said, I will always assume that the owner of a pit bull, or other strong dog, is not doing it right. I assume that of a small dog owner as well, but a Yorkie or Maltese can't kill me.
> 
> So I am afraid of pit bulls.



Funny hw you think a yorkie or maltese cant kill you. Little dogs have killed children.

A lab or collie could easily kill you as well. Are you afraid of them too?



Nacho said:


> I didn't read everything but to answer the original question, they are afraid cause they're ignorant. Plain and simple.


Exactly most people are afraid becuase they are ignorent. And as soon as they see a dog that even resembles a pitbull they automaticlly think "Oh there is a killer dog, get away from it" Alot of people dont know dog breeds like most of us would. I actuall got stopped before and asked about my GSD  I dont have a GSD, I have a collie. I told them that and they said oh he looks alot like a GSD    No he dosnt at all.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

peace36 said:


> Hi Fran Man some times you are too funny. I love reading your posts. Funny in a good way.



Blame it on the car forums I surf. You have to keep your own on them. Hehehe... I also like busting Curbside Prophet chops.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

*OOOOPs*

I meant to post If I do NOT know the owner NOT if i DO know the owner


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

I hate when one side thinks they've explained their position by claiming the other side is ignorant. It's the easy way out.
This is an interesting and complex issue, hence the active discussion. There's really nothing plain and simple about it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> Cost is always a factor, there is no need to waste money. Now if you are rich I'll PM you my paypal addy


The poor man says being rich is all relative. So I'll say, it's all relative. However, you say waste, I say get what you pay for and pay more for more.



FranMan said:


> Hehehe... I also like busting Curbside Prophet chops.


Was that a fly that just landed on my cheek? Shoo fly, shoo!


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

lol @ peace, not the first time I hear, and certainly not the last. lol

Kerry. What 2 sides do you speak of? The people who know and the people who don't. Isn't not knowing, ignorant? I'm not sure if you took offense, I didn't mean it like that. Ignorant = no knowledge. In this case many people have the wrong 'knowledge' of pit bulls, which is equally as bad, if not worse. When you put it in layman's terms, it is plain and simple, either you've owned a dog of these breeds and you have your OWN opinion or you haven't and you go by what other ignorant people say.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I say get what you pay for and pay more for more.


I know! Look at all the free help you give out. It is worthless


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Nacho said:


> it is plain and simple, either you've owned a dog of these breeds and you have your OWN opinion or you haven't and you go by what other ignorant people say.


There is a grey area in there too... there are the people who have never owned one ( such as myself) but have taken the time to understand the breed, and not bite into media hysteria on them.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> I know! Look at all the free help you give out. It is worthless


Ya, just imagine the wealth of help I would give if you paid for it. Feel free to mail me a check...and one that doesn't bounce.


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


> There is a grey area in there too... there are the people who have never owned one ( such as myself) but have taken the time to understand the breed, and not bite into media hysteria on them.


which is admirable.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


> not bite into media hysteria on them.


And an interesting choice of words, too.


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

IF SOMeone comes in my house without permission in NC i have the right to kill them/diable them anyway possible, if my dog does it then so be it!!! AND FRAnman thank you for all of your support I Will try and get him trained and get him some bit work in. AND NAcho i agree with you, people are ignorent about pitbulls because they have never owned one!!


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

You need to start a new thread about bite work.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Brindle_APBT said:


> IF SOMeone comes in my house without permission in NC i have the right to kill them/diable them anyway possible, if my dog does it then so be it!!! AND FRAnman thank you for all of your support I Will try and get him trained and get him some bit work in. AND NAcho i agree with you, people are ignorent about pitbulls because they have never owned one!!


I don't consider myself ignorant because I have never owned a pit bull. To be honest, they're not one of my breeds of choice. 

I think they'd be too much dog for some one like my self to handle. In our state, we would not be able to get home owner's insurance if we had one. I do not believe that any of the bully breed dogs are a good starter dog for a novice owner. 

However, I have seen some people swear by them, and state that they'd never have another breed. 

I am much like that with my own breed of choice. 

People in my area are also afraid (if you can believe it) of my dog. They're shocked when she turns out to be bubbly and friendly, because they think she's some kind of chow mix. 

I knew that due to the fact that she's a large spitz, people would probably fear her. That is why I've gone out of my way to socialize her in every way that I possibly could. I have taken her countless times to puppy class, to the dog parks, to PetSmart, and any where that my boyfriend and I travel. 

I like it that she suprises people. I would imagine that it would be much the same in the bully world. 

I agree that the media does demonize these dogs. However, I think that its practical on an owner's part to know what their dog is potentially capable of. 

This goes for any dog owner, and any breed of dog (or mixed-breed). 

I do not want to offend anyone with my post. I realize that this is a heated topic, and to be honest, I'm not exactly sure where the disconnect is.


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

I don't own a shotgun either, but feel qualified to state that I don't want one in my home.

I've seen my friend's face, the scar that was left after she was attacked by a pit bull. That's all the "knowledge" I need.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Oh what a feeling of security and sweet dreams at night. A German Shepherd by the foot of the bed and a Shot gun in the closet... No worries about surprise visitors coming in unannounced........


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

Kerry said:


> I've seen my friend's face, the scar that was left after she was attacked by a pit bull. That's all the "knowledge" I need.


I don't know the whole story, you probably already posted it but too many pages to read, I'll pass out.  But judging by THIS statement, any breed of dog can cause a huge ugly scar.


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

very true, you can catch a nasty scar from any type of dog, even a little poodle can tear you up!!!


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

My APBT scored a *173* at his first OB match this Sunday! He did wonderfully! A pass, not a spectacular pass, but for a year and five months old, I'm pretty darned proud of him.

*To make the assumption that NO ONE on this board trains with their dogs is completely IGNORANT.*

To the OP: IMO, there is nothing wrong with protection work. Also in my honest opinion, from your posts you don't seem to particularly understand ANY type of training, let alone the complexities of SchH work, or ring sports.

I would advise you to sign up for a basic OB course with a reputable trainer before your dogs DO cause serious damage to another animal or person. I'd also advise you to STOP chaining your dog up.

Any dog can bite. Yes pitbulls, the majority of the time do more damage, but is it the gun's fault when it fires and kills someone??? Heck no. A pitbull can be a very dangerous "weapon" and if it's in the wrong hands...

To blame the breed and not the HUMAN, the owner is complete and total ignorance to the issue.

I know MANY pits, pit mixes, associated "wrongly" pit breeds like amstaffs, staffs etc that train and work hard. Even if the dogs are DA, some of the time you can't even tell. They are so obedient sometimes the most knowledgable dog person couldn't even tell the dog was DA.

For all of the pitbull haters out there, IMO, you've made it quite clear how uneducated you are about dog training in general.


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## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

Captbob said:


> The media generally tells people what has occurred. If PBs were not attacking dogs and people, the media would have nothing to say. Just in the county where I live, there have been 3 serious attacks in the last few months. In two of those attacks, the PB went after another dog, and the owner was also attacked when trying to protect their dog. In another case last fall, two PBs jumped their fence and went after a man and his dog as they walked down the street. Both he and his dog had to go to emergency rooms to have their wounds attended to. I think the man had something like 35 stitches on his arm. He stated that if his wife or child had been walking his dog at the time rather than he, he would have feared for their lives , "since it took all the strength he had to get away from the dogs".
> 
> The media doesn't make up this stuff, it happens.


Wow..that is very............uneducated of you to say..I'm sorry but I don't think I could have put it to you any sweeter.......so let me enlighten you.

The media broadcasts whatever sells..the media is a business that runs on sponsorship money that is given to them depending on viewer statistics...

Therefore, if a dog attack happens, do you think the headline "Labrador bites child" will sell over "Rampant pit bull mauls 90 year old grandma"??? I don't think so....

Do you ever consider that breed identification is highly unreliable in the media? Who do you think is left to identify the dog that was responsible for the attack? Let me tell you who: the victim, a police officer, an animal control officer, or the owner...do you think these people always know what type of dog it is? Absolutely not. They usually DON'T...most dogs involved in attacks or maulings are mixed breeds of some sort...recently a dog identified as a pit bull (admittingly it looked like one too!) was later finally distinguished as a dalmation/whippet cross...do you think the media retold the story? No..why? Because it would have been too boring to sell...people got it the first time, they wouldn't be interested the second...moooving right along!

I've worked at the local humane society as a cruelty investigator for some time...I'm also a political science major that has taken various media related courses..I know how this bullsh*t system works...I know how pathetic statistics are, and I know how often misidentifications happen...

Heads up people..because the dogs you're reading about are not always pit bulls at all...its easy to point fingers...



Brindle_APBT said:


> I also want both of them to be able to attack on my commad. Now dont take this the wrong way, but i want them to be like alot of German Shepards and police dogs. I Want them to be trained to a tee, lol!!! Is there like any classes I Could take them to??? I Just want a loyal dog that can be viscious only in the right ttime, say if someone was trying to attack me i can sick my dog on them, something like that. PLEASE dont take this the wrong way!!!


I'm sorry if this was already answered..but why are you chaining your dogs?

Chaining is proven to cause anti-social behavior and aggression in dogs...
they're part of the family....not THINGS to be condemned to the yard...

???



FranMan said:


> That doesn't explain how bite work makes a dog human aggressive. Do you know anything about bite work?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope..not around here it isn't..that's exactly what would happen.



Kerry said:


> I don't own a shotgun either, but feel qualified to state that I don't want one in my home.
> 
> I've seen my friend's face, the scar that was left after she was attacked by a pit bull. That's all the "knowledge" I need.


Well in that case, thank you for closing yourself up to the facts based on one unfortunate situation - and turning towards stereotyping...I guess then, you must be the type of person that thinks all black people are criminals...or all spanish women are whores?
 why not? That's what your doing to the pit bull breed...


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

The only reason i chain them up is because I live in a 2 storie apt. I dont have a back yard, and I think you all took this the wrong way, I only chain them up for like 45min-1hour at a time, i dont leave them outside by them selfs, its usually so they can do their duty, lol and I do it while im training them, its a little easier because I dont have to worry about the other dogs interfering. And I'm always outside with them while they are chained up. I dont have a fenced back yard so I cant just let them roam around outside. But I do walk them daily and run alot with them.


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## Nagem (Feb 6, 2007)

I wanted to add that the media enjoys sensationalism. They play off the poor reputation of the breed and jump on the chance to report pitbull attacks. If it kind of looks like a pitbull, then it must be a pitbull. 
It is also more than possible that people who sustain any type of injury from a pitbull, even minimal ones, are more likely to report it based upon the public image of the pitbull. 
Like many people before my have also said, I believe the onus falls entirely on the owner. There are for more vicious people out there than there are dogs.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Kerry said:


> I don't own a shotgun either, but feel qualified to state that I don't want one in my home.
> 
> I've seen my friend's face, the scar that was left after she was attacked by a pit bull. That's all the "knowledge" I need.


Thats not very much knowledges at all. Would you feel the same if you seen the scar on my face from the chiuaha bite I got as a kid?, over 15 years ago and its still there, Or the bite marks left on my leg by some lab I got a few years ago?


This is the ignorence people talk about. Becuase of one incedient people jump all over it. I dont hate labs and I dont hate chis, I dont discrimanate over one thing. I dont hate stairs even though I have fallen down them so many times



Nagem said:


> I wanted to add that the media enjoys sensationalism. They play off the poor reputation of the breed and jump on the chance to report pitbull attacks. If it kind of looks like a pitbull, then it must be a pitbull.
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly. if it looks pit it must be a killer. people are to uneducated to make a comment like that.
> ...


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Pitbull said:


> Wow..that is very............uneducated of you to say..I'm sorry but I don't think I could have put it to you any sweeter.......so let me enlighten you.
> 
> The media broadcasts whatever sells..the media is a business that runs on sponsorship money that is given to them depending on viewer statistics...
> 
> ...



First of all the question that the OP posed was " Why are people so afraid of Pit Bulls?" I posted what I thought was some of the reasons that I hear dog owners often mention...

So what you are syaing is that a pit bull attacks someone, and before they take a picture of the dog to use on the TV newsclip or in the paper, the media goes out and gets a Pit Bull mask and places in on the dog so they will have a better story and will make more money.. Gimme a break.....

. The three things that seem to come up over and over again after a PB attack are :

1. The media made it up
2. It must have been the victims fault
3. The dog is a nice sweet dog, it is the owners fault.

Same old, same old....


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

_Well in that case, thank you for closing yourself up to the facts based on one unfortunate situation - and turning towards stereotyping...I guess then, you must be the type of person that thinks all black people are criminals...or all spanish women are whores?_

You are way out of line with that remark. 
This discussion has become absurd. Comparing poodle bites to pitbull attacks is one thing. Implying that my fear of pit bulls is the same as racism...well, you need to work on your debating skills. Those arguments are ineffective and "ignorant".


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

I completely agree with Pitbull.

Kerry, you can't take criticism? You said yourself that based on your friend's scars, you're scared of pit bulls. Like someone else said, that's like being afraid of all the Germans cause they killed Jews a long time ago. The only ridiculous part of this debate is people who can't see past these isolated events.

CaptBob, we're not saying that the media makes things up, they just add to it. Think outside the dog box, it's the same thing they do with celebrities, they blow crap way out of proportion. WHY? SALES, that's why. It's a business and people don't want to hear boring things. Each situation is different when it comes to attacks, so unless you're there, you don't really know what happened cause the media can make things up as well as the victim in order to not sound guilty if it was their fault. I'm not saying that it's always the victims fault, I'm saying that if it wasn't and the dog attacked for NO reason, the owner is at fault. The dog would just be doing what he was taught, and did no wrong in his eyes.

About chaining dogs up. I hear a lot of talk of how raw food is good for dogs cause they have wild animal ancestry and that's part of their natural diet. Ok, if we go that route, then why is it bad to have them outside? I mean, they're ancestors ate raw meat, so we want to feed them raw meat, they're ancestors lived outside, no matter the conditions, so why can't our dogs? I understand that if it's super cold or a tornado is coming or something major like that, they should be taken inside. But besides that, I see NO harm in them living outside. Before I get a stupid question, YES I do provide them a dog house and plenty of food and water. I give all my dogs love and play with them whenever I get a chance. I have my kids play with them as often as possible. The reasons I have my dogs outside: 
1. Well, I'm not home all day and I can't afford having them loose in the house all day OR locking them up in a crate and giving them a 3x2 space to walk in for over 8 hours. 
2. If I leave them loose outside, they will try and get out of my yard and get run over. I've had it happen TOO many times. What happens is that after a while I start feeling bad for them, so I leave them loose in my yard but when I'm gone, they somehow manage to get out and have been found dead on the street, and I find myself banging my head against the pavement cause it's MY fault. So nobody can tell me NOT to chain my dogs up cause it's inhumane, remember they're dogs and it's for their own good.

My pup is not chained up right now, I have a nylon leash on him with plenty of play so he can walk, play, search and do whatever puppies do.

Since I started watching Cesar Milan and been readin up on things, I've come to realize how to create boundaries for my dogs. I'm willing to give it a try with this pup but I will not leave him loose at all times cause I can't bear another site like the ones I've seen of my dogs.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Nacho said:


> I completely agree with Pitbull.
> 
> Kerry, you can't take criticism? You said yourself that based on your friend's scars, you're scared of pit bulls. Like someone else said, that's like being afraid of all the Germans cause they killed Jews a long time ago. The only ridiculous part of this debate is people who can't see past these isolated events.
> 
> ...


I guess I would then ask the question, why do you have so many dogs that you are forced to chain them up outside? I have one dog that is well behaved and she stays inside and has free run of the house. I don't have to worry about her geting out of the yard, being attacked by another dog while she is chained up etc...... 

Take a look at this site 

http://dogsdeservebetter.com/


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

All 3 of my dogs are house dogs, i just hcain them up on a 20ft shain to run around on and burn energy everyday!


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> I am not making that up. I have heard about it and even seen a show. where a lady had her property fenced in and her dogs chained up (while she was at work) with signs saying beware of dog. Some one went on her property got tore apart (killed) by the dogs. When she got ome she immeaditly phoned the police. they came out took her dogs (destroyed them). Then took her and her husband (children got taken to childrens aid) and they actually served about 8 or so years in jail for it. Lost there homes, jobs, children and dogs.
> 
> If some one gets hurt on your property, for what ever reasons why they went on, you are liable.


There was an elderly lady who lived down the treet from my best friend. Some moron broke into her house while she was home and her doberman and her collie both attacked him and he was pretty seriously hurt. He locked himself in her bathroom and she called the police but he ended up taking her to court and sueing her for his medical costs. Luckily for the lady her dogs were not destroyed but they have to be chained and muzzled when outside or on walks. She also had something put on her record about it stating that she is in the posession of vicous dogs. Is that fair? I don't think so, what if that guy was trying to hurt that lady and those dogs saved her life? I don;t think its fair that if my dog bites someone trying to hurt me or damage my property that I am liable but that is true, you are liable and thats that.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Brindle_APBT said:


> All 3 of my dogs are house dogs, i just hcain them up on a 20ft shain to run around on and burn energy everyday!



I don't think short times on the chain are bad. More so if you are standing there with them. When I work on cars in the garage I'll put Sabot on the chain just so he doesn't wonder off while I am not watching him.


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

Captbob said:


> I guess I would then ask the question, why do you have so many dogs that you are forced to chain them up outside? I have one dog that is well behaved and she stays inside and has free run of the house. I don't have to worry about her geting out of the yard, being attacked by another dog while she is chained up etc......
> 
> Take a look at this site
> 
> http://dogsdeservebetter.com/


I only have one dog at this time. I usually only have 1 at a time. My dogs don't get attacked but they like to wander and because of their curiosity, they went outside the fence and then everything else happened. You guys can try and tell me that dogs are like people and whatnot, and even though I agree on SOME parts, you gotta remember that they're still dogs.

BTW, that link you send me applies to owners who don't treat their dog properly. If you read my previous post, you see that I clarified that to avoid it.



FranMan said:


> I don't think short times on the chain are bad. More so if you are standing there with them. When I work on cars in the garage I'll put Sabot on the chain just so he doesn't wonder off while I am not watching him.


A lil OT, what cars are you into?


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Brindle_APBT said:


> IF SOMeone comes in my house without permission in NC i have the right to kill them/diable them anyway possible, if my dog does it then so be it!!! AND FRAnman thank you for all of your support I Will try and get him trained and get him some bit work in. AND NAcho i agree with you, people are ignorent about pitbulls because they have never owned one!!


I'm sorry, but no where in the United States or Canadian Criminal code have I ever seen anything that reads "a home owner has the right to kill another human being if they enter his/her home un-announced or without permission." If there is, please enlighten me and tell me where I can see/read this. I would LOVE to know. You have the right to protect yourself and you property yes, but kill someone? I think not.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

what kind of this dog is this?
http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/schutzhund-tracking-three.htm


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

Chloef, I have heard of this, but never read anything on it. I guess that it may be considered self defense if you feel your life is in danger. I mean, if someone *unknown* comes in *unannounced* to your home in the middle of the *night *with any sort of *weapon *and you see him first and shoot him and happen to kill him, I don't see it wrong. That person obviously had the intention of doing something very bad to you, too bad for him, he was discovered before he did anything. I see self defense coming into play. Well, at least that's my train of thought.


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## Nagem (Feb 6, 2007)

It certainly isn't allowed in Canada.. It's called excessive force. You're only allowed using one degree of force more than your attacker, no matter where your attacker chooses to attack you. 
If your dog attacks a burgler in your home and ends up killing him your dog will, without a doubt, be destroyed and you will more than likely face jail time. 
While I do not think poorly of pitbulls in anyway, I think that training a pitbull to attack on command is a dangerous line to cross. In my opinion, it is asking for trouble. If you want other to see what wonderful dogs pitbulls can be, it is certainly the wrong direction to head in.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

The only dog I have ever owned who has bitten another person is my current dog, Chloe a maltese toy poodle mix. She weighs 12 pounds. She did some damage to the guy, broke the skin and made him bleed. But you know why she did that? She was terrified because she had just been attacked and pretty badly bitten by his dog (who also bit me and drew blood) un-provoked. I called the police and when they got to my house, the man immediately went into a tirade about how my dog was vicious and she instiagated the fight and she bit him and he would have to get stitches (he didn't because only her bottom left fang whch is about 4 millimeters in width went through his skin) and he wanted my dog seized and destroyed right away. The police checked me and my dog and discovered Chloe's left back leg had a bite mark, both sides of her neck and both of her ears had bite marks and her stomach also had bite marks and my arms and hand has bite marks and she and myself were pretty bloody. I also later came to find out that his dog had attacked several other people and dogs before this. His dog was destroyed.
Chloe bit this guy because when I pulled my cell out and said I was calling the police, he tried to pull her out of my arms all the while yelling "I have to check her for bite marks, I have to make sure shes not bleeding, give me the f****** dog, you stupid idiot. Why are you calling the f****** police? What the f*** did I do? You stupid b****."
Am I happy his dog was destroyed? No, he didn't deserve it, if he had a better owner who kept him on a leash and who had trained him, I don't think he would have attacked me and my dog. I think his owner did deserve to loose his dog however.
Of all the dogs I have owned, she is the ONLY one who was ever even shown aggression towards another person. I have owned a boxer, a GSD, two breeds people associate with aggression. Sterotypes bother me to the enth degree.

And if you want protection dogs, then you should consider another breed instead of giving such a negatively sterotyped breed MORE of a bad name.

Fran Man - that looks like maybe an american bulldog cross? His tail looks like it has a fringe on it, which I don't think is suposed to be a feature of a purebred bulldog. It could also be a boxer mix or a pit bull though. Do you know what breed of dog it is????

Nacho - I can see your point. It can be a self-defence thing, if you think the person is going to kill you or has a gun/knife or other weapon, I could see someone killing that person in sef-defence. I doubt you would ever have the "right" to kill someone though which is what I was saying. Personally, if you break into someones home and get the s*** beaten out of you by that person or get attacked by their dog, then DON'T BREAK INTO PEOPLES HOUSES ANYMORE, lol, I think it is a lesson some people learn the hardway. I think it is WAY WAY un-fair that the victims are punished because they were protecting their property or even lives or the lives of their family. They say, call the police.....it takes times for the police to get their.....what if the intruder doesn;t want to wait to shoot you or beat you up? I just don't think it is legal for you to kill someone because they enter you home without permission or un-announced. I mean what if it is someone trying to get away from a bad guy who comes ontop your property and you sick you dog on themor attack them? What then? You can't just say whoopsie...sorry bout that hehe.


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## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

Captbob said:


> First of all the question that the OP posed was " Why are people so afraid of Pit Bulls?" I posted what I thought was some of the reasons that I hear dog owners often mention...
> 
> So what you are syaing is that a pit bull attacks someone, and before they take a picture of the dog to use on the TV newsclip or in the paper, the media goes out and gets a Pit Bull mask and places in on the dog so they will have a better story and will make more money.. Gimme a break.....
> 
> ...


No, what I AM saying, is that the dogs involved in the attack aren't always pit bulls...how often do you get a chance to see the dog in new broadcast clips? And if you do, how do you know its a pit bull? Face it, the story SELLS if it has "pit bull" in it....did you check out the "guess the pit bull" quiz someone else posted in this thread? That proves alot about breed identification...



Kerry said:


> _Well in that case, thank you for closing yourself up to the facts based on one unfortunate situation - and turning towards stereotyping...I guess then, you must be the type of person that thinks all black people are criminals...or all spanish women are whores?_
> 
> You are way out of line with that remark.
> This discussion has become absurd. Comparing poodle bites to pitbull attacks is one thing. Implying that my fear of pit bulls is the same as racism...well, you need to work on your debating skills. Those arguments are ineffective and "ignorant".


No no no no Kerry..you're not reading what I posted...fear of pit bull and stereotyping pit bulls are two different things..someone might be afraid of a pit bull....that's fine..but to say that they're in the news for a reason...or that mauling a person is enough proof to judge the entire breed..is definately comparable to racism..

ever heard of the term "breedism"??? It exists..and where do you think they derived that word from? Hmmmmm...I wonder



Brindle_APBT said:


> All 3 of my dogs are house dogs, i just hcain them up on a 20ft shain to run around on and burn energy everyday!


Then I appologize for jumping to conclusions...I'm completely against chaining...for long periods of time..isolating the dog from the rest of the world is not ok..but like you said..if your supervising the dogs and letting them out for some air but concerned about their safety, then I completely understand.



Nagem said:


> It certainly isn't allowed in Canada.. It's called excessive force. You're only allowed using one degree of force more than your attacker, no matter where your attacker chooses to attack you.
> If your dog attacks a burgler in your home and ends up killing him your dog will, without a doubt, be destroyed and you will more than likely face jail time.
> While I do not think poorly of pitbulls in anyway, I think that training a pitbull to attack on command is a dangerous line to cross. In my opinion, it is asking for trouble. If you want other to see what wonderful dogs pitbulls can be, it is certainly the wrong direction to head in.


I agree completely...shutzlund (sp?) should be left to the experts..not to someone that needs a guard/protection dog...this gives irresponsible owners too much slack..and let me tell you, there are far too many irresponsible dog owners in this world as it is.. enough breeds have been damaged...


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

Chloe, I agree with you on your last point. Well taken, and if true, then that's why dogs shouldn't be trained to attack on command. I completely disagree with it. Imagine if something like that happens and you have a history of training the dog to do so, there's no way out, the owner is responsible. But if the dog attacks out of fear or to protect it's owner, then I see it permissable cause it's natural for ANYONE to attack in these instances. Maybe not to the degree of killing, but of hurting someone enough to stop the threat, then I see that ok.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Pitbull said:


> No, what I AM saying, is that the dogs involved in the attack aren't always pit bulls...how often do you get a chance to see the dog in new broadcast clips? And if you do, how do you know its a pit bull? Face it, the story SELLS if it has "pit bull" in it....did you check out the "guess the pit bull" quiz someone else posted in this thread? That proves alot about breed identification...



That is a big assumption on your part which I am postive you have no proof of...



Nacho said:


> Chloe, I agree with you on your last point. Well taken, and if true, then that's why dogs shouldn't be trained to attack on command. I completely disagree with it. Imagine if something like that happens and you have a history of training the dog to do so, there's no way out, the owner is responsible. But if the dog attacks out of fear or to protect it's owner, then I see it permissable cause it's natural for ANYONE to attack in these instances. Maybe not to the degree of killing, but of hurting someone enough to stop the threat, then I see that ok.


I have had dogs since the early 50's and never trained any of my dogs to attack.....Why is that something that people feel they should do?


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

CaptBob, did you really read my post? Just in case you didn't *I disagree with training a dog to attack on command.*


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Nacho said:


> CaptBob, did you really read my post? Just in case you didn't *I disagree with training a dog to attack on command.*


Where did I say in my post that I was accusing you of training your dog to attack ????


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

I thought that was why you had quoted me and asked that question. My bad.


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## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

Captbob said:


> That is a big assumption on your part which I am postive you have no proof of...


Plenty of proof. There have been many local stories that have confused and misidentified dog breeds during mauling incidents, and have later taken up small segments to admit their mistake...segments that are too small to notice..but you bet I keep my eyes peeled.

Here, read this book for your own good and further education. Its not right for you to have a stereotypical view of pit bulls like you do. Its ignorant and I hope to change it.

The book is called:

Dogs Bite, but Balloons and Slippers are More Dangerous
by Janis Bradley

And this book has excellent statistics reviews and deals with reasons for fatal dog attacks - it goes into detail on why dogs attacks, what the media reports, and what we don't know!:

http://www.fataldogattacks.com

^You can order it from there

Hope that's "proof" enough for you...


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Pitbull said:


> Plenty of proof. There have been many local stories that have confused and misidentified dog breeds during mauling incidents, and have later taken up small segments to admit their mistake...segments that are too small to notice..but you bet I keep my eyes peeled.
> 
> Here, read this book for your own good and further education. Its not right for you to have a stereotypical view of pit bulls like you do. Its ignorant and I hope to change it.
> 
> ...


I will look into the book. BTW, I have been in your city many times before I retired. Great town. Have a Bloody Ceasar for me......., can't get them in Atlanta.....


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

you are definately right nacho, self defense does come into play, and it also comes into play if they try to atteck you with a weapon u can also shoot them, I had to take a class on this before i got my conceiled weopons liscense, lol. And I thought someone asked but I am into Imports and drifting, i myself have a 350Z.

Finally I got to take the tape off of my pitbulls ears, so they are now perfect. U can see on
http://www.myspace.com/eclipseman01
PLease tell me what you think, I have old pics of her ears too, with and without them, lol!!!


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Pitbull, I'm right there with you on every topic except one.

*What is wrong with training a dog in sports like SchH or ring sports?*

For those of you who thinks it's wrong to have a PP dog please explain why.

While I do agree that the OP does NOT sound like a person who should participate or be looking to participate in either of those sports, I see no wrong in training in those sports with a certified trainer and doing it PROPERLY.

*How often do you hear of SchH III titled pitbulls attacking and killing someone? I've never heard of it... *

Most likely because those dogs go through vigorous training to attain those titles.

I think the majority of pitbull attacks are pit mixes first off. Owned by ignorant people, with little to no training. Just like every other breed hating spree society has gone on, dobes, rotts, gsd's etc.

BSL DOES NOT WORK.

And I have to repeat this:

*For those of you who are "hating" on pitbulls, I believe it shows nothing more than your ignorance about dogs, and your lack of knowledge about dog training in general.*


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I agree that BSL is not a good solution to getting rid of dangerous dogs. I also agree that people should start being smarter about getting a dog and training it properly and researching the breeds before they buy a certain pup. Even if you get a mixed breed you should still do research on the different breeds that make up your dog. 
Brindle APBT - your dogs are very cute. I don't know if I like cropped ears or un-cropped ears though. I think they both have their pros and cons. 
I myself don't like guns but hey thats a different topic entirely.


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## Brindle_APBT (Dec 10, 2006)

I like the cropped look, but my male brindle is uncropped so i figured i would get my rednoses ears cropped, lol. so i can have the best of both worlds, lol!


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Captbob said:


> First of all the question that the OP posed was " Why are people so afraid of Pit Bulls?" I posted what I thought was some of the reasons that I hear dog owners often mention...
> 
> So what you are syaing is that a pit bull attacks someone, and before they take a picture of the dog to use on the TV newsclip or in the paper, the media goes out and gets a Pit Bull mask and places in on the dog so they will have a better story and will make more money.. Gimme a break.....
> 
> ...



The fact is the mdeia DOES make stuff up to hype up a story even more. And alot of people dont know what a APBT looks like stocky dog, short fur, bulky head = APBT to the media and the uneducated dog people.

be honest how many dogs did you click on before finding the pitbull?
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
How many of those rbeeds look like pits? how many would be called pits if they attacked? 
Point proven.



Chloef_2799 said:


> There was an elderly lady who lived down the treet from my best friend. Some moron broke into her house while she was home and her doberman and her collie both attacked him and he was pretty seriously hurt. He locked himself in her bathroom and she called the police but he ended up taking her to court and sueing her for his medical costs. Luckily for the lady her dogs were not destroyed but they have to be chained and muzzled when outside or on walks. She also had something put on her record about it stating that she is in the posession of vicous dogs. Is that fair? I don't think so, what if that guy was trying to hurt that lady and those dogs saved her life? I don;t think its fair that if my dog bites someone trying to hurt me or damage my property that I am liable but that is true, you are liable and thats that.


I dont agree with it at all. But it is true and it does happen was my point. Thank you for adding another story to help set my point up 



Nacho said:


> Chloef, I have heard of this, but never read anything on it. I guess that it may be considered self defense if you feel your life is in danger. I mean, if someone *unknown* comes in *unannounced* to your home in the middle of the *night *with any sort of *weapon *and you see him first and shoot him and happen to kill him, I don't see it wrong. That person obviously had the intention of doing something very bad to you, too bad for him, he was discovered before he did anything. I see self defense coming into play. Well, at least that's my train of thought.


yea i think that is alot of peoples train of though. But not the laws



Captbob said:


> That is a big assumption on your part which I am postive you have no proof of...
> 
> 
> ?


Not a assumption. I have seen news reports where they actually say after that it wasnt a pittbull it was a lab or bulldog. But that is after the fact and then no one pays attention to it as pitbull is belived to be a monster and a change int he story still effects negativly towards the breed.


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## jframe (Feb 3, 2007)

Just this morning there was a story about a recuperating PB someone found that had had it's vocal cords cut and it's ears cut off at the top so it could be the victim in dog fights, so for you pitbull owners: 

What are you doing to stop dog fighting? You legitimate owners should get together and campaign for pitbull rights. There is nothing wrong with the breed if decent people own them. My own mother lets her grand dog PB sleep in her bed when he visits. 

What can be done about deginerate politicians who won't vote to outlaw dog fights because of the enormous amount of money made by deginerates who bet on dog fights (you can say the same about cock fights-don't get me started)? Gambling and big money, that's what it is all about. Your elected politicians don't give a rip if you are your families get killed or maimed by a fighting dog because it puts MONEY in their pockets. Believe it, it's true, otherwise it would be illegal. Dog owners everywhere need to find a way to kick those low life people out of office and get someone in power who has the guts to stand up to animal abusers.

And, yes, every fighting dog needs to be put down, there is NO hope for a trained killer.


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## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

I dont see anything wrong with pp dogs. I fear people who go out and get pit bulls to use as a weapon.Someone who wants the dog to scare people. I think people like that shoud not own the breed.Many, many people are scared to death of these dogs and want to see them banned.So when someone comes on and says they want a dog to be viscous and to to be able to sic them on someone, I think thats the perfect example of someone who should not own pit bulls.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

corsomom said:


> I dont see anything wrong with pp dogs. I fear people who go out and get pit bulls to use as a weapon.Someone who wants the dog to scare people. I think people like that shoud not own the breed.Many, many people are scared to death of these dogs and want to see them banned.So when someone comes on and says they want a dog to be viscous and to to be able to sic them on someone, I think thats the perfect example of someone who should not own pit bulls.


The Pit Bulls in my city are frequently purchased by gang members, and drug dealers. I have two close friends that work for Atlanta PD, and they see them all the time. Two nasty PB's in your house, will deter most law enforcement people from surprise visits looking for drugs. It may be a stereo type but to see someone in their late teens or twenties with 2 PB's chained in their back yard, is a frequent occurence. I was walking my dog in a downtown park a couple of months ago and someone was coming the other way with a couple of really nasty looking PB's that he could barely control. It scared me to the point where I got my can of Halt out of my pocket ( little good it probably would have done if these 2 dogs had attacked) and walked in the opposite direction just to get away from this trio. I don't go to that downtown park anymore with my dog. That is not right as far as I am concerned, to be intimidated by some creep just because he wants to look tough to his friends and neighbors. Many dog owners that I know, avoid this breed as much as they can, for fear of being attacked defending their own dogs.


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## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

Bob, no one should have to be afraid to walk their dog for fear of being attacked and If I saw someone with no control over their dogs it would worry me too.I understand that so many people have these dogs to look tough but what is a "nasty looking pit bull"? I think this is an owner problem, not the dogs.


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

_What can be done about deginerate politicians who won't vote to outlaw dog fights because of the enormous amount of money made by deginerates who bet on dog fights (you can say the same about cock fights-don't get me started)? Gambling and big money, that's what it is all about. Your elected politicians don't give a rip if you are your families get killed or maimed by a fighting dog because it puts MONEY in their pockets. Believe it, it's true, otherwise it would be illegal. Dog owners everywhere need to find a way to kick those low life people out of office and get someone in power who has the guts to stand up to animal abusers.[/

Dog fighting is illegal in all states. Do your homework._


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

Kerry said:


> _What can be done about deginerate politicians who won't vote to outlaw dog fights because of the enormous amount of money made by deginerates who bet on dog fights (you can say the same about cock fights-don't get me started)? Gambling and big money, that's what it is all about. Your elected politicians don't give a rip if you are your families get killed or maimed by a fighting dog because it puts MONEY in their pockets. Believe it, it's true, otherwise it would be illegal. Dog owners everywhere need to find a way to kick those low life people out of office and get someone in power who has the guts to stand up to animal abusers.[/
> 
> Dog fighting is illegal in all states. Do your homework._


_

Yep. I think that whole rant has another meaning behind it. 

Brindle, I've always liked the cropped ears. I don't like for my dogs to look nasty, but I love for them to be intimidating. Why? Keeps the bad guys away. If I know the person and what not, they'll see that my intimidating dog is a big puppy, that's it, not a killing machine._


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

People keep dogs for all sorts of reasons. (Did I say that about 12 pages ago?)

If you want a dog who looks intimidating, don't get upset at people who are intimidated.

It doesn't mean we hate them. Actually I admire powerful dogs. I like tigers, too, but I hope people don't start bringing them to the dogpark.

For what it's worth, the small number of pit bulls I've actually met have been sweet dogs with terrific owners.

I don't understand the heat behind this thread. It seems like it stopped being a discussion a half-dozen pages ago.

If I see a formidible dog with an owner who clearly has control and is attentive, I'm a happy guy. More than likely, I'll ask about the dog and maybe learn something. If I see the same dog with an owner who is clueless, alarms go off. If I see that dog running free, and there isn't an owner in sight, all bets are off and I'm looking for a tree to climb. So, sure, it really is all about the owner.

I guess I could say the same thing about any breed, but I really believe there is far less chance of a pug maiming me or my dog. I'm not even talking about disposition. I'm talking about the physical tools.

And I probably shouldn't have even mentioned pit bulls on that previous post - even in a positive way.

We could be talking about any number of imposing breeds. When I saw the picture of Cassie with her Cane Corso, I thought, "Cool dog. I wouldn't want to piss her off."

It's true that the pit bulls get the bad press and the notoriety. It must be the numbers.

I actually heard on the radio a while back that, statistically, more reported dog bites came from Goldens than any other breed. I thought that was pretty odd, but it's about the numbers. There are an awful lot of goldens out there and hardly anybody is afraid of them. Also, there wasn't any mention of the severity of the bites - just the numbers.

We also need to educate our children about dog etiquette. I've had a lot of small children run up to my big lab and throw their arms around him. He didn't mind, but I'd always give them a little lecture about asking first. We also visited some grade schools and gave the same lecture. 

I think it should be part of the regular curriculum - a basic survival skill. How to (or when not to) approach a strange dog and what to do if one approaches you.

Most serious or fatal dog attacks are, after all, on children. The fatal ones are exceedingly rare, but more could be avoided.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

corsomom said:


> Bob, no one should have to be afraid to walk their dog for fear of being attacked and If I saw someone with no control over their dogs it would worry me too.I understand that so many people have these dogs to look tough but what is a "nasty looking pit bull"? I think this is an owner problem, not the dogs.


A nasty looking Pit Bull is one that stands on it's hind legs pulling for all it's worth against the leash, growling and barking and snapping at the pit bull next to it , because it is so worked up and dog aggressive. If the leash or collar breaks, it will probably spell disaster for you and your dog. I hope you got the picture.....


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

RonE - It doesn't mean we hate them. Actually I admire powerful dogs. I like tigers, too, but I hope people don't start bringing them to the dogpark.

LOL, could you imagine people bringing pet Tigers to the dog park? Sheesh!!!

You should NEVER be afraid to walk your dog outside at a dog park or public park or even down the street. Yes I understand it is a free country but it still is not fair that just because it is a free country that other people get to have dangerous dogs who scare the crap out of people just so they can make themselves feel "safe" or "more manly" whatever. There are all sorts of people who walk their dogs off the leash behind my house and it is not an off-leash park. Most people have great dogs who I couldn't care less about being off a leash back there but then you get the idiots who say stupid things like "o well I didn't see you there" or my favorite "next time you should holler to me and let me know you are here and I'll leash max." I am sorry but I should not have to tell people "HEY EVERYBODY ME AND MY DOGS ARE COMMING INTO THE PARK.....MAKE SURE YOUR DOG IS LEASHED AND UNDER CONTROL" and then proceed on my merry way. That is un-acceptable pit bull or not. If you have a dog you cannot control don't let if off a leash.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Nacho said:


> Yep. I think that whole rant has another meaning behind it.
> 
> Brindle, I've always liked the cropped ears. I don't like for my dogs to look nasty, but I love for them to be intimidating. Why? Keeps the bad guys away. If I know the person and what not, they'll see that my intimidating dog is a big puppy, that's it, not a killing machine.


Two different people approached me at the dog park behind my house as I walked by the fence, and asked me why I wasn't bringing my dog into the enclosed area to play with their PB's. They both said that it seems almost everyone avoids going in the fenced in area, when they were there. I simply told him them the truth, that alot of people including me are not comfortable allowing their dogs to play with dogs that were bred to be dog aggressive. Let's face it, in today's world , you have to be living under a rock to not realize that many people fear this breed. That is why some people get one of these dogs, as you stated, to be intimidating. Well if you choose that breed, you can't have it both ways,. If the dog is scarey, then people are not going to want to be around the dog with their pets or children. If you own a Pit, they might not tell you to your face , like I did to the two owners I talked too, but that is what many people are thinking when they see this breed. That's just reality. I think PB owners that deny this reality are fooling themselves.


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## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

ALPHA..I don't disagree with you. I should have clarified my point a little better. I think I said something along the lines of:
I don't think Schutz should be done by anyone but professionals. Perhaps I should have said, if you are thinking of doing it, do it with a professional, and for the right reasons...those reasons NOT being that you wanna look macho and have an attack dog because you don't have your own balls. The breed has been destroyed because of people with bad intentions or that do things with their dogs for the wrong reasons. Shutz is more like a professional sport/training activity, not some cheesy happy go lucky activity you do with your dog for fun...it takes a certain person to do it...no?
LOL I hope that clarifies it haha..

CaptBob...

I still think you have some kind of discrimination against pit bulls. Just by saying that you won't let your dog play with a breed that was bred to kill other dogs..fine...and I agree that pit bulls don't really belong in dog parks anyways...but if you were to meet someone and become friends with them, and they owned a pit bull..and you two planned an organized play date, you wouldnt let your dog go near the pit bull because of its ancestry? What if the dog wasn't even dog aggressive?

So am I NOT allowed to let my pittie play with other dogs because of her history? Should all people avoid me because pit bulls were bred to fight?
That's harsh...if that's what you are saying, then that is really harsh and down right sad.

And what is your definition of a scary dog? A dog that's powerful, muscular, has a thick chest and a blocky head and is agile and intelligent? Because that is what a pit bull IS...

Dogs don't make themselves scary..BAD OWNERS and the MEDIA make dogs scary. Not the dog's fault....

not fair to cast out a whole breed because of a few bad apples. There are most likely 10 OR MORE sweet, fun loving pit bulls for every single ill bred, unstable, aggressive dog (again, its not the dog's fault - the dog is a byproduct of the bad owner/breeder). 

The pit bull is one of the most popular breeds in north america...if I was going to consider your handling of statistics and was by some chance going to agree with you that these dogs are responsible for a large percentage of fatal attacks (which I have a problem with agreeing, due to improper breed identification, and media/statistic bias), did you ever for a minute consider the fact that pit bulls are also THE MOST abused breed in the WORLD?...yes, the WORLD...they are exploited to the fullest...no other breed endures such pain and misery, yet still manages to love the hand that beats it...

if these stats do by chance have some accuracy to them, then why is everyone so busy blaming the dogs and how vicious they are, when they should in fact be concentrating on the conditions of these dogs, how they are trained and treated, and for what purpose their dumb azz owners breed them! But nope...bite/fatal dog attack stats don't even for a second consider those very important factors that make a whole world of difference to the question "WHY?"

It's NOT the dog's fault....no way...its the people..its always people that damage anything good they put their dirty fingers upon.

As for you keeping your dog away from a breed that was bred to attack other dogs, consider some of these breeds that are commonly known to possess dog/animal aggression:

Basically,

THE WHOLE TERRIER GROUP!


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Pitbull said:


> CaptBob...
> 
> I still think you have some kind of discrimination against pit bulls. Just by saying that you won't let your dog play with a breed that was bred to kill other dogs..fine...and I agree that pit bulls don't really belong in dog parks anyways...but if you were to meet someone and become friends with them, and they owned a pit bull..and you two planned an organized play date, you wouldnt let your dog go near the pit bull because of its ancestry? What if the dog wasn't even dog aggressive?
> 
> ...


When I go to the dog park park, someone might have a dog that belongs to a herding breed. It soon becomes obvious that their dog is trying to herd the other dogs, and very often the owner will mention that as an explanation of the dog's behavior. Someone else might have a terrier which starts digging holes all over the park, since that is what terriers are bred to do. A hound might start howling, again that was what their ancestors did. I think most everyone agrees on these points. Then comes the Pit bull *and the big disconnect. * Now all of a sudden, with this one breed, the ancestry of this breed supposedly has absolutely nothing to do with their present day behavior.. Why the big difference in just this one breed? We all read articles about the D/A of this breed, we see first hand what happens when some of this breed visits a dog park, and yet everyone thinks that this breed is picked on unfairly. If I got a dog that was bred to chase and kill birds, I would have to be a bit dim to expect it to act friendly towards birds. I feel the same way about some PBs, around other dogs. Maybe they will be nice to other dogs, but just like the herding dog, that inbred instinct* could kick in at any time. *That is why I don't want to be around that breed with my dog, plain and simple. To me it is a gamble that I refuse to take. 

Right after I adopted my dog, a friend 's dog got very ill on a sunday morning and I took her and the dog up to the Vet ER near my home. A young couple came rushing in with their 8 month old dog wrapped in a towel that was covered with blood. A neighbors Pit Bull had gotten loose and attacked their dog *while their 10 year old daughter was walking it in front of their home.* It's left front leg was almost severed and would probably have to be amputated. The neighbor had previously told this guy that their dog was "friendly" and just barked alot. The father wanted to go home and get his gun and shoot the dog, and frankly I couldn't blame him, but I talked him into calling the police and animal control instead so he wouldn't wind up in jail. That just one instance involving PB's among several that have occurred within a few miles of where I live, in the past year alone.
I would have to be in denial not to be concerned about the behavior of this breed around kids and other dogs and their owners.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Two different people approached me at the dog park behind my house as I walked by the fence, and asked me why I wasn't bringing my dog into the enclosed area to play with their PB's. They both said that it seems almost everyone avoids going in the fenced in area, when they were there. I simply told him them the truth, that alot of people including me are not comfortable allowing their dogs to play with dogs that were bred to be dog aggressive. Let's face it, in today's world , you have to be living under a rock to not realize that many people fear this breed. That is why some people get one of these dogs, as you stated, to be intimidating. Well if you choose that breed, you can't have it both ways,. If the dog is scarey, then people are not going to want to be around the dog with their pets or children. If you own a Pit, they might not tell you to your face , like I did to the two owners I talked too, but that is what many people are thinking when they see this breed. That's just reality. I think PB owners that deny this reality are fooling themselves.


Were you afraid of this breed 15 20 30 years ago ? (Dont mean to age you but you did say you have owned dogs since the early 50's  )



Captbob said:


> Right after I adopted my dog, a friend 's dog got very ill on a sunday morning and I took her and the dog up to the Vet ER near my home. A young couple came rushing in with their 8 month old dog wrapped in a towel that was covered with blood. A neighbors Pit Bull had gotten loose and attacked their dog *while their 10 year old daughter was walking it in front of their home.* It's left front leg was almost severed and would probably have to be amputated. The neighbor had previously told this guy that their dog was "friendly" and just barked alot. The father wanted to go home and get his gun and shoot the dog, and frankly I couldn't blame him, but I talked him into calling the police and animal control instead so he wouldn't wind up in jail. That just one instance involving PB's among several that have occurred within a few miles of where I live, in the past year alone.
> I would have to be in denial not to be concerned about the behavior of this breed around kids and other dogs and their owners.



You even said that the majority of people in your area have them as protection, I would see being worried of the ones around your neighboorhood as there is alot of drug dealers and other sorts of people that owns them. Those ones get breed and taught to fight and be aggressive.. They pick the best of the agressive ones and put them together. To make a mean dog. I wouldnt hate a whole breed bassed one a bunch of dooped up losers.


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## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

I agree with Tankster...
CaptBob..you're lumping all pit bulls under the same category because of a few bad experiences...there are thousands of dog attacks daily across the world involving NON pit bull dogs...many of them fatal...

Pit bulls are not supposed to be human aggressive, so you telling me that you're cautious of this breed being around children is just plain ignorant to me...what you should be saying is that every dog should be supervised around children, regardless of breed...

You're a breedist...you're discriminating the entire breed...dog aggression doesn't have to be a big problem and can be controlled..the examples you have provided us with are examples of extremely dog aggressive pits that have extremely irresponsible owners.

My dog, a pit bull, has been attacked by two rotties, a labrador/border collie cross (which she still has massive scars from) and an australian shepherd..
My dog is not dog aggressive...she didn't even try to fight back...
How can you sit there and tell me that you refuse to give any pit bull a chance, even if they don't posess dog aggression and have responsible owners, with your own dog? Not even under supervised play...

I mean, that is so ignorant I can't even believe I'm reading it...you're such a breedist it really makes me ill.

Labrador retrievers are, according to statistics that you put so much faith in, responsible for the largest number of attacks/bites in North America...why aren't you saying anything about that? Do you too keep your dog away from labs or are you in complete denial about the fact that every dog has the ability to cause damage and harm (and it happens everyday!) to another dog, regardless if they were bred to fight other dogs or not...

And what do you mean by "being concerned about their owners" as well...???
Are you implying that you think all pit bull owners are irresponsible too?

???


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Pitbull said:


> I agree with Tankster...
> CaptBob..you're lumping all pit bulls under the same category because of a few bad experiences...there are thousands of dog attacks daily across the world involving NON pit bull dogs...many of them fatal...
> 
> Pit bulls are not supposed to be human aggressive, so you telling me that you're cautious of this breed being around children is just plain ignorant to me...what you should be saying is that every dog should be supervised around children, regardless of breed...
> ...


There is a fine line in my opinion between dog aggressive and human aggressive. If a dog attacks my dog, before it's over, there is a good chance that the dog will become human aggressive towards me because I am going to do my best to* protect my dog and if that involves knocking the attacking dog into the next century, so be it.* If the 10 year old girl had tried to protect her dog instead of dropping the leash and running home for her father, you and I both know, she would have probably been bitten, possibly severely by the dog which was in an attacking frenzy. So I don't buy this D/A vs H/A barrier that so many people talk about, which I hink is just wishful thinking. 

I will try and explain it again. A PB is bred to be dog aggressive. Like any dog that is bred for a specific purpose, those traits are part of the dogs possible behavior. If I was looking for a dog, and I didn't want the dog to have that trait. I wouldn't buy that particular breed. 

Going back to the OP again, the poster wanted to know why people are afraid of PB's. I have tried to outline some of the reasons that people are nervous around that breed. You can call people ignorant, or stupid, for feeling that way, but that is not going to change anyone's feelings. 

"Concerned about their owners" means exactly what I just described. A person is walking their dog down the street, and they get attacked by a D/A dog, not only is the dog being attacked under a threat of possible or injury or worse, *but so is the owner of the dog being attacked* if he or she tries to defend their dog. 

If all this concern was imagined, I doubt if insurance companies would be asking people what breed of dog they have when they have the dog covered under their homeonwers liability insurance. Many times they will exclude PB's. Many of the better dog boarding businesses in the area where I live, won't accept them. Some apartment developments won't allow them. This just shows that some people and businesses are concerned about the potential for problems.


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## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

Captbob said:


> There is a fine line in my opinion between dog aggressive and human aggressive. If a dog attacks my dog, before it's over, there is a good chance that the dog will become human aggressive towards me because I am going to do my best to* protect my dog and if that involves knocking the attacking dog into the next century, so be it.* If the 10 year old girl had tried to protect her dog instead of dropping the leash and running home for her father, you and I both know, she would have probably been bitten, possibly severely by the dog which was in an attacking frenzy. So I don't buy this D/A vs H/A barrier that so many people talk about, which I hink is just wishful thinking.
> 
> I will try and explain it again. A PB is bred to be dog aggressive. Like any dog that is bred for a specific purpose, those traits are part of the dogs possible behavior. If I was looking for a dog, and I didn't want the dog to have that trait. I wouldn't buy that particular breed.
> 
> ...


First of all, I never called you stupid..so I don't know where that is coming from...

Second of all, your Opinion is just that..opinion..so far, I haven't really seen any facts to back up what you're telling me... all you're doing is bashing a breed and failing to realize any large or even medium sized dog can do what a pit bull can do in terms of damage. I've also read news stories of pomeranians mauling babies, but that's another story.

Again, you keep bringing up why pit bulls are banned, and why buildings ban them and why insurance companies do this and that...this is all media sensationalism that people have fallen for, much like yourself. None of it is backed up by truth...its all fear without reason...

According to actual, professional organizations that know a thing or two about dogs/animal behavior, will tell you way differently than any insurance company, politician, or superintendent of a building. They WILL tell you that pit bulls are dogs, not super ultra monster machines...they will also tell you that breed specific legislation is a joke, and that communities won't be ANY safer if we eliminate pit bulls from them. They will also tell you (this includes boarding kennels, groomers, vets) that some of the friendliest and most wonderful dogs that they have met and serviced, have been pit bulls. 

In Toronto, pit bulls are banned (that includes the entire province of Ontario)...why? Not because of pit bulls going insane throughout the city and mauling everyone. I will tell you why they are banned....because politicians introduced this legislation during a time when their particular political party was, to say the least, not too popular....so what better way to get people to root and toot for you than to introduce a ban on evil monsters (which is what the politicians kept referring to them) after two isolated pit bull attacks? (mind you, other dog attacks were happening as well, but what do you think the media reported?)

And, of course, all of this legislation was passed, despite the fact that most people were against it, according to survey numbers recorded by various newschannels...

After that, the media was very quick to change its outlook on pit bulls, and what do you know...all of a sudden, warm and fuzzy stories of rescue pits were beginning to pop up on TV for once in a blue moon...
Politicians shut their mouth about the legislation after it passed, feeling quite useless and stupid after realizing that it was not in anyone's favor..

And last but not least, the legislation is now in court, facing charges of infringment on human rights...the entire province wants to overturn what the government thought would get them more seats.

That's why pit bulls are looked upon the way they are...20 years ago, other breeds were labelled as the dangerous monsters, crossed off on every insurance company's list...GOD forbid these evil creatures walk in public!...

don't worry, soon enough, it'll be some other dog..just be careful, cuz it might be yours....


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Three dogs have attacked me and my dogs in dogs parks and public parks. A standard poodle, a golden retreiver and a standard schnauzer. I have come across pit bulls who were dog aggressive, now some of the owners hollered out "please miss, hes not very friednly with other dogs" and even had their PB muzzled and on a leash and others have not, they let their dog get really close and when their dog goes psycho and starts to snarl and pull and try to bite they say..."oo sorry, shes kinda mean to strangers." I chalk pretty much any bad dog up to the owners or breeders. Now I will agree there are dogs who will in a sense snap and just attack someone, but more often than not....the dogs that do that had a reason. 
I am so tired of hearing people say all pit bulls are bad and should be shot on site and banned etc. It is not fair and it is not right. As far as I am concerned the only ones who should be shot on site and banned and castrated are the people who train their dogs to be that way and treat them so badly they are scared of people and by that way I mean dog aggressive and people aggressive. Those people should be ABSOLUTELY ashamed of themselves for doing something like that to a dog. Period.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Pitbull, you are soo right. The ban legistlation was brought in at a very conveinent time for some politicians. And as you mentioned, Clayton Ruby, one of the best lawyers in Canada, has been hired to get rid of it, it's been in the Supreme Court's hands for almost a year now. I read the transcripts of the trial, the judge actually asked the prosecuters (young and inexperienced, most people assume because the government wanted to back out slowly with their hands up, as opposed to putting in someone experienced in the field) What happens when rottweilers are chosen next by irresponsible dog owners?

I feel too, that pitbulls probably shouldnt' be allowed in dog parks. I'm sure there are a number of pitbulls who are not DA, but as a specific quality of the breed, I trully do not think it's fair to other dog owners.

With that being said, I've been attacked A FEW times with my dogs as well, seeing as we're all discriminating against certain breeds of dogs, I'll publicly post the breeds we've been attacked by: (you'll see I'm not THAT biased)

*Rhodesian Ridgeback*

*Siberian Husky*

*English Staffordshire Terrier*

I've had a number of people approach me in my small town, curious about my terrible pitbull, who looked like Hannibal Lector with his muzzle. Some were as I said just curious, some were angry that my 8 year old niece was walking him by herself. (He's very well behaved) I actually did this on purpose, hoping for some positive reactions which I did receive.

Obviously this discussion will not change people's minds. I just hope one day, I, or pitbull, or any other responsible pit owner, DOES cross your path and change your mind.

There are plenty of us out there, willingly to give up a few minutes to speak with you, and our dogs would be more than happy for a quick belly rub.

So I'm bowing out on this thread, and just hoping, and wishing that one day, you'll cross the paths of a responsible pit owner.

Edit:

I'd just like to add that when I'm walking my dogs, I steer clear of ANY BREED OF DOG. ANY dog can very well be DA, believe it or not, goldens, labs.. YEs, all those wonderful friendly breeds you've heard of, are more than capable of snapping at another dog.

It was brought up that Golden's in one study were found to have the highest incidence of biting. I've also heard that labs are at the top of the list when it comes to biting small children in the family. 

I don't visit dog parks. ANd my dogs don't play with any type of strange dog, regardless of breed. So I guess I'm not neccessarily a "breedist" I hate every breed equally!  LOL. (that was a joke in case anyone was getting ready to flame me for that ROFL)


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

That happened so many times when I as younger and would take Bess for a walk. People would tell my parents they were being so irresponsible and that is was sooo dangerous for me to be walking her. She was a boxer and I was 13 and I can't even count the number of people who said "o is she a pit bull?" or ask me why she wasn't muzzled or if she wa dangerous.


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## Nagem (Feb 6, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I just hope one day, I, or pitbull, or any other responsible pit owner, DOES cross your path and change your mind.
> 
> There are plenty of us out there, willingly to give up a few minutes to speak with you, and our dogs would be more than happy for a quick belly rub.


I think this is exactly what the pitbull needs. People just need to see that there are responsible pitbull owners who take pride in having well socialized dogs.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Alpha, 

I really enjoyed your post. 

I wish I had the chance to meet a well socialized, pit bull that wasn't DA.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Snowshoe- Where do you live? I'll get a plane ticket for you and you can meet my Hades babies boys  LOL

Here he is, lord forbid, next to a bunch of other dogs with no one on the other end of the leash! Someone save that chocolate lab!


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## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

He looks like a little angel..lol that innocent puppy face haha..what a cutie muffin  very nice picture.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Pitbull said:


> First of all, I never called you stupid..so I don't know where that is coming from...



OK, I give up, where did I call you "stupid"?


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## jframe (Feb 3, 2007)

Kerry said:


> Dog fighting is illegal in all states. Do your homework.


Illegal but not vigorously enforced in this state. Therefore I follow the trail to the top. If the top brass wants it done, it gets done.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Alpha- that picture made me happy. 

I bet that he and Orchid could wear eachother out...which would be great, LOL!


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

I have had several instances where my pitbulls have gotten in fights with other dogs. They are viscous and fearless fighters, once in a fight. When I was trying to separate my dog from the other, I jumped on him and tried to force him off. Not one of those times did either of my dogs try to attack me or the other owner. These dogs had wandered into my yard and I guess my dogs didn't like that, so a fight broke out. But just to clear things up, not every pitbull or dog will attack the human once engaged in a dog fight.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Nacho said:


> I have had several instances where my pitbulls have gotten in fights with other dogs. They are viscous and fearless fighters, once in a fight. When I was trying to separate my dog from the other, I jumped on him and tried to force him off. Not one of those times did either of my dogs try to attack me or the other owner. These dogs had wandered into my yard and I guess my dogs didn't like that, so a fight broke out. But just to clear things up, not every pitbull or dog will attack the human once engaged in a dog fight.


That is probably because you are the owner. I would be carefull with someone elses dog, however.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Nacho said:


> I have had several instances where my pitbulls have gotten in fights with other dogs. They are viscous and fearless fighters, once in a fight. When I was trying to separate my dog from the other, I jumped on him and tried to force him off. Not one of those times did either of my dogs try to attack me or the other owner. These dogs had wandered into my yard and I guess my dogs didn't like that, so a fight broke out. But just to clear things up, not every pitbull or dog will attack the human once engaged in a dog fight.


If it is so easy for other dogs to wonder into your yard, then that tells me that your dogs could wonder out of your yard. Please fix the problem, nothing good can come from this. The media dose not need anymore pit bull stories. Iv'e owned pits for 30 years and have had one fight, if you can even call it a fight and it was between two of my dogs over a potatoe chip.


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## Nacho (Jan 26, 2007)

I know what you mean WD, it has been fixed since then. To add to this, even though it was rare, when my pits would escape, no harm was ever done to anybody.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

No offence Nacho, but I'm awfully glad you fixed the problem and also that they didn't wander into my yard. Regardless of how friendly they looked, if they didn't take off when I yelled they would've got bear maced 

ANY loose dog is a serious issue.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Alpha said:


> No offence Nacho, but I'm awfully glad you fixed the problem and also that they didn't wander into my yard. Regardless of how friendly they looked, if they didn't take off when I yelled they would've got bear maced
> 
> ANY loose dog is a serious issue.


I think that is a little bit too general. I have very rarely had any of my dogs on a lease and never had a problem. My dogs are always under voice control. 

I know what you meant though--- An loose Pit Bull is a serious problem is more like it!


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I suppose your right.

ANY loose dog in MY yard is a serious issue, for that dog and owner at least. LOL

Dogs offleash that are well trained and don't rush other dogs/people are not an issue. (The post I was commenting on, sounded like the dogs had escaped and were not supervisedD) Any loose Pit Bull is NOT neccesarily a problem. The whole point of my comment was to eliminate breed discrimination.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Any dog that is off leash and attacks my dog is going to have a really bad day....


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Any dog that is off leash and attacks my dog is going to have a really bad day....


I hear that. That's why we don't go to dog parks, anymore. 

The people in this area are dog-stupid.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Snowshoe said:


> I hear that. That's why we don't go to dog parks, anymore.
> 
> The people in this area are dog-stupid.


 Si. 

Everyone around here lets their dogs run loose....my dogs have been attacked a number of times, thus the reason why they are now dog aggressive to any strange dog aproaching us. 
They've been attacked by a neighbor's three Cattle dogs, a neighbor's two Aussies, a neighbor's two Malamutes, a neighbor's Akita/Lab/Chow/whatever mix, a neighbor's Lab mix, a neighbor's Beagle, a person's Lab, a neighbor's GSD.....most of these were just snarly charges where a yell from me and a rock thrown at their butt got them away before any contact was made, but I'd say three-four of them where contact. Short contact (a swift kick from me got them away), but contact none the same. Now my dogs take the inititive toward any strange dogs or any kind of dominance display by a strange dog. I can count on one hand the number of dogs that my two get along with without an introduction period over a month or two. That would be a Malamute, a Schnauzer, a GSD/Husky mix, and a Lab mix. 
Thank God I've worked with my dogs enough that now they are reliable around strange dogs that are on leash. Off leash, however, all bets are off.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

This is what scares me about Pit Bulls....

ajc.com > Associated Press story
2 Pit Bull Dogs Maul Man, Who Loses Hand 
MEMPHIS, Tenn. — Two pit bull dogs ripped off a man's left hand and badly mauled his right arm before other people were able to beat the dogs away.

"I couldn't believe I wasn't dead," James Chapple said from his hospital bed. "I'm going to church every day when I get out of here and talk to the man upstairs."

Chapple, 59, had just gotten off a bus and was walking home on Feb. 9 when the dogs ran out from an auto repair business, knocked him down and started biting.

In a bedside interview Wednesday, he said he yelled for help and one pedestrian grabbed a stick to hit the dogs but was unable to get them to stop.

"I was kicking and screaming at them to let me go, but they kept dragging me — they had my hand and wouldn't let go," Chapple said.

He passed out and didn't wake up until he was in an ambulance. Doctors had to amputate his lower left arm, but they saved his right arm. Chapple also suffered bites on his legs and one ear.

Memphis Animal Services captured the dogs and will euthanize them, authorities said.

Charles Lawson, who co-owns the business, said the dogs were guarding the shop and belong to his partner. He said he didn't know how the dogs got out, but declined to comment further.


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

Captbob said:


> This is what scares me about Pit Bulls....
> 
> ajc.com > Associated Press story
> 2 Pit Bull Dogs Maul Man, Who Loses Hand
> ...


WOW!


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Charles Lawson, who co-owns the business, *said the dogs were guarding the shop* and belong to his partner. He said he didn't know how the dogs got out, but declined to comment further.


 This is why Pitties do *NOT EVER *make good guard dogs...they have such drive and focus that they do everything you want them to do 110%. This is both a good thing, and a bad thing. If the owner taught them to be guard dogs and attack people...guess what the Pittie did? It did what it was taught to do. What if the owner had taught it to be a therapy dog? It would give 110% to that too.
I am, however, glad the dogs were euthinized...regardless of their past, those dogs were dangerous and should be taken off of the streets before they injure someone else again. I think the owner, however, should get a big fat heavy fine put on his *** for raising dogs to be dangerous. 

I think you should all check out this link http://www.badrap.org/rescue/breed.cfm

As well as check out this flash film...make sure you watch till the end. If you have to close your eyes, do so. *PG-13 content!* Make sure your speakers are on!
*The Pit Bull Problem*
http://gprime.net/flash.php/thepitbullproblem


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

blackrose said:


> This is why Pitties do *NOT EVER *make good guard dogs...they have such drive and focus that they do everything you want them to do 110%. This is both a good thing, and a bad thing. If the owner taught them to be guard dogs and attack people...guess what the Pittie did? It did what it was taught to do. What if the owner had taught it to be a therapy dog? It would give 110% to that too.
> I am, however, glad the dogs were euthinized...regardless of their past, those dogs were dangerous and should be taken off of the streets before they injure someone else again. I think the owner, however, should get a big fat heavy fine put on his *** for raising dogs to be dangerous.
> 
> I think you should all check out this link http://www.badrap.org/rescue/breed.cfm
> ...


I don't think any dog should be trained to attack people, especially by amateur trainers.... That is like leaving a loaded gun for kids to play with....


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I don't think any dog should be trained to attack people, especially by amateur trainers.... That is like leaving a loaded gun for kids to play with....


There you go. These dogs were trained by morons to do it. Why condone a whole breed for it. Might as well hate GSDs, rotties dobes and other "protection" breeds aswell.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> There you go. These dogs were trained by morons to do it. Why condone a whole breed for it. Might as well hate GSDs, rotties dobes and other "protection" breeds aswell.


Again, I go back to the question that OP asked. I answered it with the article in the paper...


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

That is why people are afraid of them...they can inflict serious damage but so can every other breed of dog. Just because some pit bull attacks someone is no reason to condemn the entire breed and hate them all. If you research every breed that has ever been used as a "protection" or "guard" dog and put them all on a list, you would be surprised, I am sure, by some of the breeds you would find on that list. Breeds people would never consider on the same scale as pit bulls. 
Here are a few: lasa apso, airedale terrier, alaskan malamute, australian cattle dog, bouviers, dalmations, great danes, mastiffs, rhodesian ridgebacks. I am not saying that these dogs all kill people, but each of those breeds were one used as "guard" dogs or "protection" dogs. Alot of people don't research breeds before they buy a dog.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Here is another one, a few miles from where I live. The Pit Bull is the one that attacked the child and killed it.


http://www.wsbtv.com/news/11037440/detail.html


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I hate it when people post all these stories about pitbulls attacking  No offense CaptBob, but if I wanted to, I could post a THOUSAND stories about ALL different BREEDS of dogs attacking if I really wanted to.

Labs, Goldens, poodles, chi's, mixes ANY DOG.

Anyone can make ANY breed look bad. I'm not going to do that, mainly because I have dial-up internet and it would take me forever to search and link all the websites that have NUMEROUS stories about different breeds other than pitbulls attacking, but if your really interested, Google, "(insert breed here) attack" and I GUARENTEE you'll get a number of hits. [There was a wonderful pitbull at the shelter here, named Lexi that had to get her leg amputated after an attack by a lab/husky mix]

Back to dogs being trained to attack people, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong in training a dog for PP IMO. Of course it should go without being said that if it's done PROPERLY. I eventually plan on purchasing a dog specifically for PP, SchH, FR sport etc, but it will be done with a reputable trainer.

I also don't like how the stories never give enough info. Was the man trespassing on private property? Taking a trail through someone's yard off the bus stop?

Was he drunk? Does he own a bitch that could've possibly been in heat?

Even if the majority of those answers is no, obviously these dogs have no training/socialization whatsoever, and I, am also glad that they were euthanized.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I hate it when people post all these stories about pitbulls attacking  No offense CaptBob, but if I wanted to, I could post a THOUSAND stories about ALL different BREEDS of dogs attacking if I really wanted to.
> 
> Labs, Goldens, poodles, chi's, mixes ANY DOG.
> 
> ...


Going back again, to the reason for this thread. The OP wanted to know why people are afraid of Pit Bulls, and I thought that the killing of a 2 year old child in Atlanta yesterday was a valid reason for people being afraid of this breed. I was watching TV last night when this story was featured on the loacal TV news. Animal control was there and verified that it was a Pit Bull. This is about the 5th killing and mauling in the last 6 months just in the *Atlanta Metro area* which is where I live. I have not heard or read of any other maulings-killings of kids or adults that I can remember for a long, long time, that involved non-Pit dogs. I don't know which article you are reffering to, but in one, the man was walking down the sidewalk in front of the business, and the second one, the 2 year old girl was in her back yard. People seem to get irritated when someone posts a story about a PB, but the bottom line is, they seem to be involved in a very high percentage of attacks, at least where I live, and that is probably due to the high number of these dogs that are in Metro Atlanta. And by the way, I get really irritated when I have to hear another story of some innocent dog or person getting attacked, regardless of the excuses for the attack. To me , there is no valid excuse for this kind of violent behavior from a dog, none at all. I used to work with a guy, and he lived in a rural area of North Georgia and he had someone move in to a house next to his with 2 Pit Bulls. The 2nd day the new neighbor was there, he sees the 2 Pit Bulls running on the road in front of his houses, unleashed, and one of them was barking at his son riding his bike. He calmly walked over to his new neighbor and told him that he had two children that play outside all the time. Then he said, " If I see your dogs loose again, I am getting my 12 gauge and I will blow their heads off....." The dogs were never off leash after that. It is a shame that he had to threaten his new neighbor that way, but his kids were more important to him than his neighbors feelings.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2007/02/16/0216dogattack.html


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think the original poster already knew the answer before he asked the question.

The answers to the rhetorical question, and the responses to the responses, have gone on for 19 pages.

Some people gravitate toward pitbulls because they can be a sweet and loving breed and some because they are physically imposing and intimidating. In the latter cases, we can have scary owners and scary dogs. 

It doesn't seem that complicated. We just have to recognize that ALL generalizations are wrong.

In general.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

RonE said:


> I think the original poster already knew the answer before he asked the question.
> 
> The answers to the rhetorical question, and the responses to the responses, have gone on for 19 pages.
> 
> ...



Well Put. What more could one think. If you had'nt put it that way this may have go on to 30 or 40 pages!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

It may anyway.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

People are afraid of pit bulls because they are smarter than dogs. This surely couldn't be proved by the majority of posters that have been super trained by their dogs we see make there rediculous statements that put their dogs above mankind.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> People are afraid of pit bulls because they are smarter than dogs. This surely couldn't be proved by the majority of posters that have been super trained by their dogs we see make there rediculous statements that put their dogs above mankind.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> People are afraid of pit bulls because they are smarter than dogs. This surely couldn't be proved by the majority of posters that have been super trained by their dogs we see make there rediculous statements that put their dogs above mankind.


I'm pretty confused with this post too... Are you saying that by defending pitbulls I'm putting my dog above mankind?

If so, I have NO idea whatsoever how you came to this conclusion. BUT firstly, seeing as we're speaking about APBT's in general, a BREED STANDARD is to LOVE people. Therefore a HA pitbull is a terrible specimen of the breed right off the bat. Secondly, my dog is in no way a "menace to society". He gets along just fine. He's never shown any type of HA, EVER.

I'd also like to say that even if you have a HA dog (you could label my bitch HA, just because she WILL bite you) that doesn't even neccessarily mean that by me keeping her alive I'm putting my dog above mankind, but I am very cautious and responsible with her because I know how quickly she can turn.

And yes, my dogs have trained me to do a lot of things; get lots of excercise or get annoyed relentlessly by them to play with the skunk, fox, duck, rope etc, not to look over my shoulder when walking down a dark alley late at night alone, to get up when the alarm goes off or I'll get licked to death etc.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

damn, page 20...


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> People are afraid of pit bulls because they are smarter than dogs. This surely couldn't be proved by the majority of posters that have been super trained by their dogs we see make there rediculous statements that put their dogs above mankind.


I ajm going to have a couple of Martinis and then read this again, to see if I can figure it out.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Pit bulls are smarter than dogs......whaaaa?????? Are you saying pit bulls are not dogs??????


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Chloef_2799 said:


> Pit bulls are smarter than dogs......whaaaa?????? Are you saying pit bulls are not dogs??????


 Nope, they aren't dogs! They are Raptors that interbred with dogs millions of years ago to create an super intelligent human agressive dog that aims to kill! 
(Sarcasm the INTIRE POST, BTW.  )


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

lol, and they want to take over the world too...don't forget that haha  !!
We have a new neighbour who moved in a few days ago down the street and he has a 5 year old pit bull and a 2 year old bull terrier.....o my gosh they are awesome dogs!! They are so smart and he does obedience with them both and they LOVE to show off their skills in the field behind our house.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> We have a new neighbour who moved in a few days ago down the street and he has a 5 year old pit bull and a 2 year old bull terrier.....o my gosh they are awesome dogs!! They are so smart and he does obedience with them both and they LOVE to show off their skills in the field behind our house.


Don't you love seeing that? I always get lifted to see Pitts at agility trials with their loving owners. Apart from being THE sweetest dogs around, they've been known to burn it up on the course and even take out some border collies x)


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

They are both great dogs. He let the bull terrier off the lead to show some people how to re-call their dogs from a long distance, she ran to the middle of the field (it is two soccer field so one soccer field length) and he called her and she sat, layed down and then came running back to him. I wish my dog would do that but by the time she reached mid-field, she will have found something way more interesting than me haha!  
He does fly ball with the pit bull as well as obedience and agility. He used to do agility with the bull terrier but can't any more because she has joint problems that are as of now still un-resolved. But like I said...awesome dogs!


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## jeff_j1701 (Mar 16, 2007)

I live in Ontario, Canada and we have a pit-bull ban here; what a pity!

These dogs have to be spayed or neutered (which I think all dogs should be unless you plan on breeding them) and they have to be leashed (understandable) and muzzled when in public. 

No new pit-bulls or pit-bull mixed breeds are allowed in the province and no new births allowed.

I own a pit/lab mix and Caesar is the sweetest and smartest dog I've ever had. But he was also trained and socialized; unfortunatly many dogs aren't.

Many of the dogs that guard grow-ops (at least here in Ontario) are pits. Do you think the dog owners will take the time to properly train & socialize them? lol

Pits, IMO, are great dogs. Loyal, loving, and very smart. They are also good with kids and small pups and kittens. In fact, if any dog attacks a pup they are not good dogs, as most dogs will not attack a "baby". 

Hell, Caesar treats our youngest cat like his baby; they play with each other, clean each other and sleep with each other.

Pit-bulls used to be the "dog of choice" for a family pet in the early part of the 20th century. Now they are the "dog to hate." Too bad for Petey of the Little Rascals!  

But one sure-fire way to train a pit, or any dog, to become viscious and territorial is to tie them up. A dog, if tied up, will try to "protect" it's small territory and that is not a good thing.

For the sake of your dog, please don't tie him up and PLEASE take him to obedience class; the training will do him good but the socialization aspect can't be beat.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

jeff_j1701 said:


> I live in Ontario, Canada and we have a pit-bull ban here; what a pity!
> 
> These dogs have to be spayed or neutered (which I think all dogs should be unless you plan on breeding them) and they have to be leashed (understandable) and muzzled when in public.
> 
> ...



Agree 100%! However, I'm quite sure Petey is actually an American Bulldog.  And also my pit/dalmation mix also love to sleep and cuddle with our cat! It's so cute!


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Unfortunately it is the irresponsible breeders that gave pitbulls a bad rap.--Most of the pit bulls in the dog park are rather complacent.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Because they are baby eaters who are the mortal enemy of all human kind. They want to take over the world and enslave all people due to their ruthless and vicious state of mind.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

A 20 something came into the dog park yesterday afternoon with a Pit Bull. This was one of the biggest Pit Bulls that the people in the park had ever seen, and it was a "blue" color. The gang-banger looking owner had the dog on leash and a sharply studded collar despite the ban on this type of collar on the "rules sign" , and it kept growling and lunging at every dog that would come anywhere near it. Many of the dogs in the park, started barking and growling at the Pit sensing alot of instablity in the dog. The owner stated that he was bringing the dog into the park so that it could get used to being around other dogs. A Rottweiler breeder who was in the park at the time with 2 adult, well behaved and trained ( she also is a trainer) Rottweilers, and their 2 pups, and two other dog owners asked the person to *" please let them leave the enclosure before he unleashed the dog"*. * Everyone *then left the park expect this one @*@# jerk and his PB. 

*That is what turns people off this breed, and it happens over and over again....*


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Captbob said:


> A 20 something came into the dog park yesterday afternoon with a Pit Bull. This was one of the biggest Pit Bulls that the people in the park had ever seen, and it was a "blue" color. The gang-banger looking owner had the dog on leash and a sharply studded collar despite the ban on this type of collar on the "rules sign" , and it kept growling and lunging at every dog that would come anywhere near it. Many of the dogs in the park, started barking and growling at the Pit sensing alot of instablity in the dog. The owner stated that he was bringing the dog into the park so that it could get used to being around other dogs. A Rottweiler breeder who was in the park at the time with 2 adult, well behaved and trained ( she also is a trainer) Rottweilers, and their 2 pups, and two other dog owners asked the person to *" please let them leave the enclosure before he unleashed the dog"*. * Everyone *then left the park expect this one @*@# jerk and his PB.
> 
> *That is what turns people off this breed, and it happens over and over again....*



You're right there! I just wish people wouldn't do this to the poor breed yah know! It's so unfair! I think we have been SO lucky with the dog park we go to. The day before yesterday must have been a 'bully' breed day at our park; we had one APBT, about 4 pit mixes, an American Bulldog, an Akita and 2 Rotties at the park all at the same time and not one single scuffle! It's amazing to see that happen...and ironically all of us pet-parents mentioned the fact that we wished every single bully breed dog could be as socialized as all of ours. I just wish all pet-parents could be that way with their dogs.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Why are people so afraid of Pitts? Because of people who chain their Pitts outside, don't bother to properly socialize them, haven't a clue about canine behavior, much less train them properly, and then wonder why they have an unpredictable, vicious dog on their hands after it rips some child's face off. 

It's not the breed one needs to be afraid of, it's their owners, those people who live vicariously through their bully breed, taking pride in their dogs' aggressive behavior toward other dogs, and feeling real macho cuz their dog can instill fear in others and "kick ass." 

Chaining dogs is a real good way to create a dog with serious behavioral problems, aggression being one of them. You seem to be delighted with the fact that your little Baby made your neighbor uncomfortable enough to take his dog and leave when (and I quote you): "But she has those (im gonna kill you) look in her eyes, so she kept looking at the neighbors dog as if she was gonna break the chain. She would probably tried to knock the other dog down a few pegs because she is more dominant, but this is why i keep them chained up. I guess he didnt like that so he picked up their dog and went inside, I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbulls, sorry this is so long. I just had to come tell everyone about this, lol!!!"

And you say you don't understand why people are so afraid of pitbulls! Oh, I think you know all right. And that's exactly why you get off on owning this breed, and couldn't wait to "come tell everyone about this, lol!!!" 

It would be prudent to start socializing your dogs now, so they display appropriate behavior when meeting other dogs and people, rather than being a menace. They're babies, and yet 52 lbs. Probably developing muscle, too, pulling against the chain. 

If you truly love the breed (not what having a Pitt does for your ego), you would work with your dogs to ensure they were ambassadors of the breed, showing through their excellent manners and behavior what good temperaments Pitts have, even though they are capable of taking down a 2,000 lb bull - which is what they were bred for. 




Brindle_APBT said:


> I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbull, lol! I can see why but I wish they weren't. I live in a townhouse and i had my girlfriends mutt (chow/lab mix) chained up in the back yard, and our neighbors had their sheepdog chained up too. Well when I put Butch(my Brindle Pitbull) on the chain and as soon as I swapped out my dogs the owner of the other dog came out side and visited with me, I knew it was because I had put butch outside, and Butch was just chillin, being the 17 week old 52 pound puppy that he is, lol!! And then i took Butch inside and put my 13 week old rednose "Baby" outside so she could do her business too. She is also the most dominant out of the pack, and the smallest so far, lol. But she has those (im gonna kill you) look in her eyes, so she kept looking at the neighbors dog as if she was gonna break the chain. She would probably tried to knock the other dog down a few pegs because she is more dominant, but this is why i keep them chained up. I guess he didnt like that so he picked up their dog and went inside, I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbulls, sorry this is so long. I just had to come tell everyone about this, lol!!!


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## allick06 (Mar 13, 2007)

The problem is ignorance and the general publics willingness to swallow anything the media says


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## noledog49 (Mar 5, 2007)

Pitbulls can be scary dogs by nature. My parents have always been anti-pit until a friend gave us a pit/husky mix. She was a sweetheart the first day but as time went on she became more aggressive (she even ate our bird!!) Some can be sweet but I think it is how you raise them!


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## zzoo (May 2, 2007)

i believe folks are fearful of pitbull behavior for several reasons:
* the media doesn't profilgate happy stories about pitbulls; the stories we hear are the frightening ones
* pitbulls are often the dog of choice for those who enjoy dogfights---even fights to the death
* many people believe certain dog breeds are more predisposed to having aggressive behaviors

my husband JUST came home from work and told me about a televised news item he saw today: two pitbulls allegedly attached one or more children, and the dog who belonged to the child(ren) lost its own life in order to successfully protect them.

one rarely hears such harrowing stories about other breeds or about breed mixes.

however: several years ago i was much too close for comfort to a scene where two dogs in the same home 'ganged up' on a third dog in that home and killed it. they disembowled the carcass and then 'celebrated' by rolling in the remains in such a way as to 'wear' their victory.

neither of these three dogs were pitbulls.

why mention that? i believe we do well to understand that all dogs, no matter how domesticated, have at their core the behaviors innate to their canine ancestors. while i love my dogs and have no fear of them, i have great respect and remain aware of that innate sense in mind. because no dog is 'aggression-proof,' we do well to consider that as we allow them to be in social settings.


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## zzoo (May 2, 2007)

Brindle_APBT said:


> I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbull, lol! I can see why but I wish they weren't. I live in a townhouse and i had my girlfriends mutt (chow/lab mix) chained up in the back yard, and our neighbors had their sheepdog chained up too. Well when I put Butch(my Brindle Pitbull) on the chain and as soon as I swapped out my dogs the owner of the other dog came out side and visited with me, I knew it was because I had put butch outside, and Butch was just chillin, being the 17 week old 52 pound puppy that he is, lol!! And then i took Butch inside and put my 13 week old rednose "Baby" outside so she could do her business too. She is also the most dominant out of the pack, and the smallest so far, lol. But she has those (im gonna kill you) look in her eyes, so she kept looking at the neighbors dog as if she was gonna break the chain. She would probably tried to knock the other dog down a few pegs because she is more dominant, but this is why i keep them chained up. I guess he didnt like that so he picked up their dog and went inside, I dont understand why people are so afraid of pitbulls, sorry this is so long. I just had to come tell everyone about this, lol!!!


it kinda sounds like you're asking the question just so you can tell all about your dogs. you ask 'why are people afraid,' and then you say, 'i understand.' wh- wh-- what exactly is your reason for the post?


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## Silverwolf (May 1, 2007)

I'm not wild about pit bulls myself, but I think it's wrong to assume that ALL pit bulls are out-of-control beasts. The media doesn't want people to know about nice pits. So that's why you only hear the bad things, but according to statistics, laboradors and cocker spaniels are more aggressive dogs.

I'm afraid of the pit bull that lives across the street from us, for two reasons. One, it's a very large dog. Two, it's growled and advanced me before, which makes me wary. It all depends on how the owner raises the dog, and as far as I know, our neighbors hardly ever spend time with the dog.


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## tobybones (Apr 24, 2007)

if you all are so dog savvy and dog lovers and all that, you SHOULD know, yes pitbulls are dog agressive, NOT people agressive and that the problem is at the end of the leash that is NOT attached to the dog. I trust my pit around kids more than I do my boxer.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

tobybones said:


> the problem is at the end of the leash that is NOT attached to the dog.


The pits that people worry about are the ones that aren't attached to EITHER end of a leash.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I am afraid of pitbulls because everytime there is a dog attack televised on the news stations where I live it involves either pitbulls or pitbull mixes or some type of bully dog (although once in a while there is a rottweiler). Additionally, every time on the news they talk about breaking up a dog fighting ring again it involves pit bulls, bully breeds or pit bull mixes. I agree that their are traits bred into a dog and I am not fond of the traits associated with the bully breeds.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

peace36 said:


> Maybe I missed or read something wrong but you think some dogs WANT to be knocked down a few pegs?? I do not agree. It is the owners that cause the problem with the pit breed that and the fact that they many times when grown up are naturally agressive towards other dogs.
> 
> Unless I know the owner is responsible I am afraid of pits. I guess other dogs can attack but I would much rather be attacked by a poodle or even a lab that a pit bull


There was a women that had the first face replacement in the USA due to her Lab chewing up her face. I think out of the times I was bit I would choose a very small dog!

I have American Bulldogs and there are alot of people that think they are over size Pits. I don't mind and I just think they are big clowns, I have also had large Pits through my house that people thought were ABs. 
People need to educate people about these dogs which is something that I do at schools and other programs. One thing that sticks out in my mind is that Police dogs are trained to guard and if they kill they are doing there job and don't get put down. I do think they are great dogs but if a Pit is trained to guard something and kills it gets put down because of idiots that train for the wrong reason.
I love walking with my dogs because of the way they look, when I am out in the woods hiking no one comes near me and I feel safe. Even though they would just want attention from the people they won't go near them.
I had my large dog Kramer at a competition and it was a long day he was doing great then when he was off lead he looked at me then climbed up into the stands and sat between my husband and father. We didn't win that day and I got to stand in the middle of the ring alone holding an empty leash. What I do remember is all the people laughing or picking up their dogs in fear.


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## JusTaGirL (May 24, 2007)

Pittbulls are great dogs!!! Its all on whos takeing care of it/them.If the owner is half assing it and doesnt take care well then,the owner is the problem.I truley belive in almost every case of a pitty attacking is the owners fault.

I train my dogs to be very sucky and gental,i had two pitbull/rotty/bulldogs and they were the sweetest animals ever.(im bad i let my dogs sleep in my bed  but they are just so cute)They had never attacked another dog or person.

I think if you socalize them enough they wont react aggressevly when they are scared or suprized or threatond. I have a little mutt we found on my b-day we think shes a lab/chow/terrier shes more likely to bite someone then pittbulls.

My mom got biten in the face by a pittbull she needed plastic surgery to look semi normal again,her face will never look the same.She was walking home from grocery shoping and a dog just jumped at her.The owners of the dog were inside there house and the dog was running free.Whos fault is that the owners not the dog.If it was in a fenced yard or tyed up that would not have happend.My mom is not scared of pittbulls now but she is scared of dogs in general.That is very sad because she can now never feel comforatable walking without dog spray.

we didnt get the dog put down but we did get it taken away from the owners and its now in a safer home.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

The first face transplant was in France, not in the USA and I could not find anywhere in any article about the breed of dog that was responsible--if anyone can find it, please show it. Also, I could not find any information regarding the first face transplant in the USA. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4484728.stm


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Btw, what I read about the face transplant lady was that the dog did not 'attack' her per se, but that she was unconscious (can't remember why, drug overdose or something??) and the dog mauled her face while trying to wake her up. Don't know if that's true, that's just what I read.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I heard something like that as well sheltiemom--she was in an alcohol or drug induced coma


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## PsiElement (May 23, 2007)

Frankly, I think dogs biting people who are not hurting it is unacceptable no matter the cause. Even if someone is passed out and the dog mauled someone's face trying to "wake them up" it doesn't make it okay. The dog should have been taught not to bite, period.

I am very wary of all dogs bred to attack/guard. That includes rottweilers and dobermans, as well as Pitbulls. I do agree that the way the owner trains them is key.. and many of them get a bad rap because of irresponsible owners and badly trained dogs.

This thread alone though shows why some people are afraid. Some (not all, not even a majority even) of the pitbull-owning posters have made it clear that they *like* scaring people and like scaring dogs and like having the intimidation and power. This is a huge problem and instead of people blaming those who are afraid, who do have the right to be afraid out of number of attacks alone, they should instead look to those who are irresponsible with the breed and perpetuate this fear by their behavior concerning their dogs.

I will never, though, say it's ONLY the owner's fault. It's the owners fault that the dog was never trained, but the dog shouldn't have bitten and for that, I do believe any dog that attacks someone and mauls someone should be euthanized. Then again, I also think that the people responsible for the dog should serve jail time, not just have to pay a fine. Killing someone with your dog is just as bad if not worse than killing someone with a gun, your car, etc.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

tobybones said:


> if you all are so dog savvy and dog lovers and all that, you SHOULD know, yes pitbulls are dog agressive, NOT people agressive and that the problem is at the end of the leash that is NOT attached to the dog. I trust my pit around kids more than I do my boxer.


Isn't that pretty much what everyone says right before their dog mauls someone? After they maul someone, the owner says "Gee, he never did that before."



PsiElement said:


> I will never, though, say it's ONLY the owner's fault. It's the owners fault that the dog was never trained, but the dog shouldn't have bitten and for that, I do believe any dog that attacks someone and mauls someone should be euthanized. Then again, I also think that the people responsible for the dog should serve jail time, not just have to pay a fine. Killing someone with your dog is just as bad if not worse than killing someone with a gun, your car, etc.


I think you're leaving out a major element in the equation - the breeder. If the breeder is breeding dogs that are not temperamentally sound, no matter what the owner does, it's a time bomb waiting to go off.


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## PsiElement (May 23, 2007)

I think well-bred and genetically sound dogs can snap if left un-trained or trained poorly. How many pitbulls are of good pitbull genetics and are used in pit fights? A lot, I'd guess, and their behavior doesn't stem from genetics alone but the fact that the "owners" beat them and use brutal and cruel methods to instill a crazy amount of aggression. I personally think that while genetics play a big part in how quickly a dog learns/how much re-inforcement is needed to keep a behavior going, the owner is 100 percent responsible for training their puppy into a well-behaved dog. A breeder should do all they can do to provide a good "blank canvas" or get the dog started, but a breeder cannot be responsible if an owner decides to be stupid or irresponsible. It's not feasible or fair.

I almost entirely blame the owner, and a little bit the dog (I do think the dog has to be held accountable as well as the owner). If the breeder was a good breeder though and something happens that goes wrong in a dog's training under the new owner and it becomes vicious, I hardly think that a breeder can 100 percent prevent that 100 percent of the time. A breeder may strive to, but it's pretty ridiculous to blame a vicious dog on bad genetics alone. Breeders don't call every 20 minutes to grill owners about their dog training, or pop in randomly to test the dog, or demand that the owner pass the breeder's inspection in order to be able to keep their dog. Expecting that is just silly.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> The first face transplant was in France, not in the USA and I could not find anywhere in any article about the breed of dog that was responsible--if anyone can find it, please show it. Also, I could not find any information regarding the first face transplant in the USA.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4484728.stm



I couldn't remember if in the USA or not but I do remember for sure it was a Lab there was a show on it that I did see. If I can find more info I will post it on here but they did interview the owner that had it done.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

PsiElement said:


> I think well-bred and genetically sound dogs can snap if left un-trained or trained poorly. How many pitbulls are of good pitbull genetics and are used in pit fights? A lot, I'd guess, and their behavior doesn't stem from genetics alone but the fact that the "owners" beat them and use brutal and cruel methods to instill a crazy amount of aggression. I personally think that while genetics play a big part in how quickly a dog learns/how much re-inforcement is needed to keep a behavior going, the owner is 100 percent responsible for training their puppy into a well-behaved dog. A breeder should do all they can do to provide a good "blank canvas" or get the dog started, but a breeder cannot be responsible if an owner decides to be stupid or irresponsible. It's not feasible or fair.
> 
> I almost entirely blame the owner, and a little bit the dog (I do think the dog has to be held accountable as well as the owner). If the breeder was a good breeder though and something happens that goes wrong in a dog's training under the new owner and it becomes vicious, I hardly think that a breeder can 100 percent prevent that 100 percent of the time. A breeder may strive to, but it's pretty ridiculous to blame a vicious dog on bad genetics alone. Breeders don't call every 20 minutes to grill owners about their dog training, or pop in randomly to test the dog, or demand that the owner pass the breeder's inspection in order to be able to keep their dog. Expecting that is just silly.


A responsible breeder, especially of power breeds that are subject to BSL's, needs to be even more responsible than the average breeder - not only in the way they choose the parents and socialize the puppies, but also in how they choose the buyers for their dogs. A responsible breeder is not going to choose someone that will use the breeder's dogs for dog fighting. A responsible breeder is not going to choose a novice dog owner who doesn't know what the breed needs, in training, socializing, and maintaining the breed. A responsible breeder is concerned that the breed they love will be outlawed, and they will do everything they can to make sure that their dogs don't add to the hysteria that will cause that to happen. A responsible breeder very will may remain a mentor to the owners of their puppies, so that s/he can guide them to the proper trainer. 

To do anything less would be just silly.


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## PsiElement (May 23, 2007)

DogAdvocat said:


> A responsible breeder, especially of power breeds that are subject to BSL's, needs to be even more responsible than the average breeder - not only in the way they choose the parents and socialize the puppies, but also in how they choose the buyers for their dogs. A responsible breeder is not going to choose someone that will use the breeder's dogs for dog fighting. A responsible breeder is not going to choose a novice dog owner who doesn't know what the breed needs, in training, socializing, and maintaining the breed. A responsible breeder is concerned that the breed they love will be outlawed, and they will do everything they can to make sure that their dogs don't add to the hysteria that will cause that to happen. A responsible breeder very will may remain a mentor to the owners of their puppies, so that s/he can guide them to the proper trainer.
> 
> To do anything less would be just silly.


A dog breeder cannot and will not be constantly checking up (daily, basically, since daily training is required especially in early stages) and overseeing personally all training of a dog. They can only do so much-- trying to make sure that the owner is responsible and will take care of the dog and train it, of course. But people can lie, people can start out with good intentions and then make big mistakes. 

To sit there and think that a 5 year old pitbull that attacks people is a big part the fault of the breeder is plain foolish and silly. The owner is responsible for training and while the breeder should (and most good ones do) make sure that the person knows how and intends to train the dog, there is no way to make sure of that 100 percent of the time that isn't ridiculously time consuming, or just plain ridiculous.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

PsiElement said:


> A dog breeder cannot and will not be constantly checking up (daily, basically, since daily training is required especially in early stages) and overseeing personally all training of a dog. They can only do so much-- trying to make sure that the owner is responsible and will take care of the dog and train it, of course. But people can lie, people can start out with good intentions and then make big mistakes.
> 
> To sit there and think that a 5 year old pitbull that attacks people is a big part the fault of the breeder is plain foolish and silly. The owner is responsible for training and while the breeder should (and most good ones do) make sure that the person knows how and intends to train the dog, there is no way to make sure of that 100 percent of the time that isn't ridiculously time consuming, or just plain ridiculous.


Daily checks would not be necessary if there was a requirement by the breeder that by a certain date the owner would supply a certificate saying the dog had completed training. A CGC certificate could also be required by the breeder. A dog that was bred for good temperament, with a goal of breeding out the aggression that the breed was originally prized for, and then required to be trained with the right methods and a CGC follow-up is unlikely to be the kind of dog to end up attacking people. Responsible breeders make sure that happens, if for no other reason than to improve the reputation of their breed, and to make sure that their breed isn't outlawed.


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## PsiElement (May 23, 2007)

DogAdvocat said:


> Daily checks would not be necessary if there was a requirement by the breeder that by a certain date the owner would supply a certificate saying the dog had completed training. A CGC certificate could also be required by the breeder. A dog that was bred for good temperament, with a goal of breeding out the aggression that the breed was originally prized for, and then required to be trained with the right methods and a CGC follow-up is unlikely to be the kind of dog to end up attacking people. Responsible breeders make sure that happens, if for no other reason than to improve the reputation of their breed, and to make sure that their breed isn't outlawed.


The point is, a breeder can only do so much but after a certain point in time, the control is out of their hands. Go read the thread about the pitbull that snapped.. the truth is that a dog that genetically has a characteristic, it won't be "bred" out of them. A terrier will dig, a Beagle will hunt, etc. You can do what you can to make it a minimum but you always run the risk. And over time if an owner becomes lazy, if an owner becomes abusive, or if someone else abusive temporarily takes over the dog, the dog can become dangerous. In that sense I'm sorry but it's never the breeders fault. It's entirely the owner's fault.


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## Amaya-Mazie-Marley (Apr 15, 2007)

I'm sorry but I can't believe what the OP is saying. I live in NC myself, about 3 hours from where he lives, and we would have the same laws. The laws he is ranting about are ridiculous and non exsistant. Training his dogs to attack on command is also ridiculous and exactly why people fear and hate the APBT breed. I have been raised around APBT and have one of my own. Sure they could tear somebody up, but why the **** would I want to train them to do just that and cause them to be put down, or just banned where I live. He said he would hate to see his dogs put down, honey regardless of the circumstance, if your dog hurt someone, it would be put down end of story. Even if your dog was protecting you, if it did physical harm to someone, it would be put down no matter what. So really, if you spend all this money on training them to bite on command, its a lose lose situation. There is an automatic law in NC that if you dog bites somebody they are quarantined for AT LEAST two weeks. Your dog is labled as agressive, and is only allowed in public with a muzzle on. If you dog can even make it through quarantine. If you dog is agressive to any one person at all while being in quarantine the dog is put down, no questions asked, then they preform a necropsy on your dog. I think that this thread was started for a dumb reason, and a few people have no clue what they are talking about. I forget who posted it, but I agree with her 100%. Alot of people come on here acting like they know everything about dogs and training dogs, and very few actually know what they are talking about.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

It is scarey that people like this own Pit Bulls. Its one reason why Pit Bulls get labeled as bad dogs, basically the owners. 

You wonder why someone is afraid of you dog when they have a look of a killer and want to fight. The other owner is just doing what they feel is right, to keep their dog safe. Its pretty common knowledge that Pit Bulls can be dog aggressive so it seems like they are being pretty smart to me. 

You need to start socialzing your puppy SOON and training them. Its not all in how you raise them though, its a part and important to raise them proper, but how they are bred is also a determining factor. There are not very many good breeders in any breed really a lot of backyard breeders breeding for $$, the same is true with Pit Bull they breed for color, size, fad whatever brings the highest $ without regard to health or temperament. It sounds like you have fallen prey to this. A 17 week old puppy that is 52lbs? And you are sure this is a Pit Bull? Most wellbred Pit Bulls are this size full grown and not a 4 month old puppy. Sounds like another crossbred "Pit Bull" to me that will reach 100+lbs and bite some one's kid and eat the neighbors dog. 

You should try to make things right with your dogs.



CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> Agree 100%! However, I'm quite sure Petey is actually an American Bulldog.  And also my pit/dalmation mix also love to sleep and cuddle with our cat! It's so cute!


That is certainly NOT true. Petey (the original) was a UKC Reg. APBT sired by Tudor's Black Jack (dam Peggy O'Niell). Petey was an actor and had roles in other things besides Our Gang. Tudor dogs can be seen behind most APBTs pedigree. These were game (fighting) dogs as Black Jack was a GR CH pit fighting dog. The Tudor dogs were also used as a heavy foundation in the American Staffordshire Terriers. Lucenay's Peter was one of the 1st dogs to be registered as an American Staffordshire Terrier with the AKC. 

There are other famous Pit Bulls out there

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/weela.html
Weela Saver of many lives

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/CustomsToday/2002/October/k9.xml
Popsicle #1 customs dog

http://www.lawdogsusa.org/k9neville.html
Neville K9 Officer along with all the other lawdogsusa Pit Bulls

http://www.lawdogsusa.org/lawdogs.html

this is just a few


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Spicy, I have American Bulldogs, love Bullys, and just wanted to add one more positive thing about Pits. USMC Sargeant Stubby was a Pit and the US Most Decorated Military Dog.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

jframe said:


> What can be done about deginerate politicians who won't vote to outlaw dog fights because of the enormous amount of money made by deginerates who bet on dog fights (you can say the same about cock fights-don't get me started)? Gambling and big money, that's what it is all about. Your elected politicians don't give a rip if you are your families get killed or maimed by a fighting dog because it puts MONEY in their pockets. Believe it, it's true, otherwise it would be illegal. Dog owners everywhere need to find a way to kick those low life people out of office and get someone in power who has the guts to stand up to animal abusers.
> 
> And, yes, every fighting dog needs to be put down, there is NO hope for a trained killer.


What the heck? Dog fighting is illegal in ALL 50 states. Cock fighting is illegal most anywhere, I believe only 1 or 2 states allow it. Only dangerous dogs should be put down, no matter what type of problem they have. Known man biter, fear aggression, dominance aggression, or they are just off (poor breeding) or trained to be aggresive. 

In you later post you said illegal but not enforced in this state-hmm it says you are in Fort Worth, TX, there are a lot of dog fighters in TX (and other southern states) and TX has one of the biggest crack downs I've seen. That is where they had that big bust with 285 dogs seized, now isn't it? The Dallas cowboy player (and his girlfriend) were busted for fighting. There have been numerous dog fighting bust in TX I've seen on news or internet. I really don't know what you expect, them to just wipe out dog fighting? If it were that easy they'd wipe out all crime. I'm sure they want murder gone but can't get rid of it. 

Many dogs are not trained to fight, its a known fact that Pit Bulls (and other breeds Akitas, Tosas, Dogos, Bull Terriers, Jindos, schnauzers, Australian Cattle Dog seem to be really bad about attacking other dogs/people in this area the owners don't care, there are a number of small dogs known to be aggressive too) there is no training about it, these are natural tendencies. Some people encourage it, but you can manage a dog aggressive dog. With proper training and socializing you can keep a dog aggressive dog in check and they won't be a harm to another dog. There are plenty of Pit Bulls who have minimal to no dog aggression, it just depends on the dog, its breeding and raising. I have seen many rescued fighters live out a normal healthy lives and not be a harm to anyone, and some that were not even very dog aggressive once away from the bad owners. The new owners didn't encourage the behavior. It goes the same in other breeds, police dogs know when to be "on the job" and then are normal family companions, so Pit Bulls who know to fight in a pit don't see the need outside where they have never been let to fight, there is no game it in for them if there is no pit. There are people who do feel the need to "train" there dogs to fight but usually this is just abuse and no type of training and makes them fearful. 

So I'd have to 2nd the others opinions, do your homework before a crazy rant that makes little sense. People might not respect your opinion much later if you don't have any knowledge behind it. 




> So what you are syaing is that a pit bull attacks someone, and before they take a picture of the dog to use on the TV newsclip or in the paper, the media goes out and gets a Pit Bull mask and places in on the dog so they will have a better story and will make more money.. Gimme a break.....


Haha no, what happens is they just lie and yes its been done before. They lie about a lot of things and then later apologize for it, not just dogs. But one case I remember was that a large black lab attacked and mauled a 10yr old boy severaly, nearly killing him. Well the news crew went and filled a chocolate Pit Bull in the pound for the dog attack story. So you tell me? 

Also there was this nut with a white dog, it looked like a very poorly bred Boxer. So the guy walked it around town, many times off lead and it was both human and dog aggressive. It growled at my dog a few times and my dog did nothing. It growled at people I knew and they were afraid. Well he was 1st telling everyone it was an American Bulldog and he was looking for a female to breed it to. Then a lady I know had her golden mix in the backyard while she was taking a nap and the dog attacked it in its own yard. The neighbor came out and got the dog off. The police and AC were called and he told them the dog was a Pit Bull. So of course thats what it was reported as. The guy is a moron who shouldn't own any dog, but now he can't make up his mind what the dog even is. I'm pretty sure it neither a American Bulldog or Pit Bull and I'm wondering why he doesn't see its a poorly bred Boxer. He stole a female Boxer (fawn/white) and they looked pretty much a like. Hmmmm stupid people. 



> Two different people approached me at the dog park behind my house as I walked by the fence, and asked me why I wasn't bringing my dog into the enclosed area to play with their PB's. They both said that it seems almost everyone avoids going in the fenced in area, when they were there. I simply told him them the truth, that alot of people including me are not comfortable allowing their dogs to play with dogs that were bred to be dog aggressive. Let's face it, in today's world , you have to be living under a rock to not realize that many people fear this breed. That is why some people get one of these dogs, as you stated, to be intimidating. Well if you choose that breed, you can't have it both ways,. If the dog is scarey, then people are not going to want to be around the dog with their pets or children. If you own a Pit, they might not tell you to your face , like I did to the two owners I talked too, but that is what many people are thinking when they see this breed. That's just reality. I think PB owners that deny this reality are fooling themselves.


I would agree, these people are idiots taking their Pit Bulls (and any other dog aggressive breed) to the dog park. Even if their dog isn't dog aggressive what if another persons dog starts a fight with their dog? It doesn't matter because their dog will likely do more damage if it decides to defend theirselve. Which spells disaster for both dogs and the owners. STUPID. 

That is true and unfortunate as to why SOME PEOPLE get these dogs, but not all. They are not trying to have it both ways, they have a normal pet dog that is a Pit Bull and don't realize why people are so afraid and buy into all the hype when the breed is a very stable bred when wellbred like any other. I just don't think you should ever trust them not to hurt another dog if it arises, like I mentioned above even if they have never been dog aggressive. I really think dog parks are bad ideas in general for all dogs, some people don't deworm or vaccinate their dogs, a lot of people don't train them and I've heard of fights and bites (to people) at parks which were all by other breeds besides Pit Bulls, if you get a bunch of dogs together there is likely to be some with temperament issues and no training and stupid owners. I wouldn't take this risk with my dog no matter what breed I owned, just wouldn't put them in that situation.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

There should be a statute of limitations on these threads. 

This one was started nearly four months ago and beaten to death at that time. Now we're quoting posts that are several months old.

I think we're going to close this one. If somebody wants to start a new Pit Bulls are Cute and Cuddly Thread or even a Pit Bulls are Genetically Predisposed to Kill anyhting that Moves thread, be my guest.


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