# Why are the tails docked on the Australian Shepherds?



## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

i've seen pictures of Australian Shepherds with their tails and they're really nice looking. i'm guessing to say they're docked so they don't get injured when herding but if you're not herding why dock them?


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

I wish people wouldn't cut off parts of their dogs' anatomy! They may feel phantom pain for the rest of their lives, just like human amputees. Where I live it's not uncommon to see dogs ears cropped at home with a pair of scissors. Brutal!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

goodgirl said:


> I wish people wouldn't cut off parts of their dogs' anatomy! They may feel phantom pain for the rest of their lives, just like human amputees. Where I live it's not uncommon to see dogs ears cropped at home with a pair of scissors. Brutal!


Cropping ears with scissors is completely different from having a vet dock tails on a neonatal puppy. Not sure why you would think those were at all related?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Aussies are commonly naturally bobtailed. For the ones born with tails. . .tradition? I suppose.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

I guess I view it as related just in the sense something is cut off...I read the thing about phantom pain in a book by Linda Tellington-Jones (T-Touch) the other day. But it was referring to docked tails.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

They dock them because they say it prevents the tail from being injured but it's a huge crock, there are many herding breeds who successfully herd with their tails. A good many working breed enthusiasts are trying to get it written into the standards of breeds whose sips have to be docked that they can be shown with or without tails.


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## Tetrisash (Apr 17, 2014)

Some of them are born naturally with short tails. The rest are docked to prevent injuries from herding and for hygiene. It's also a completely painless procedure done only a few days after birth, at the worst the pain is compared to a pinch. Tradition is also a part of it, as it's the breed standard for Australian Shepherds.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I wish they wouldn't do it, a dog works better with their tail then without. Also hygiene??? Please :/ it's called a brush.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think we can say how much pain a newborn puppy is experiencing. I mean, we're talking cutting through bone, muscle, tendon, etc. I do not believe for a second that it's painless.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

The only thing I've ever been confused about when it comes to the australian shepherd born with tails having them docked is... why are border collies kept with tails when they herd just as dangerously? Besides the breed standard... I don't understand the difference between the two breeds in regards to docked tails vs natural tails.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I'd say tradition is the reason why their tails are docked, if they're not born with a natural bob. 

I guess this'll sound odd to lots of folks here, but today I saw docked cocker spaniels for the very first time in my life. So weird! I stopped and stared, at first because I like cocker spaniels, grew up with one, but I soon noticed they had no tails. I love our cocker's tail, it's so long and bushy, the long fine coat waving behind her like a flag when she wags her tail.


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## Tetrisash (Apr 17, 2014)

I didn't mean to insinuate that I support it, I was just giving reasons that are given for it: standard, tradition, hygiene, injury. While I don't agree with docking, dew claw removal, ear clipping, declawing, and circumcision (referring to humans for the last one). Though I do believe it's not painful like people make it out to be as long as they do it right after birth and not later in life, as I've read many things that show that it barely bleeds, puppies return to normal right away, and that the nerves and bone aren't even fully developed at that time.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Also hygiene??? Please :/ it's called a brush


Uh, rude. Have YOU ever brushed diarrhea or cow crap out of a coated dog? It's nasty. I certainly don't recommend it. Cleaning up the pants of the dog isn't always so bad, but a tail coated in nasty is AWFUL.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes I have, I don't find it annoying enough to merit cutting off a part of a dogs anatomy. There are plenty of other coated arming breeds (bearded collies, BCs, collies, etc) that I am sure it's equally hard to brush stuff out of their fur and their tails remain.

Forgive me for being cynical, but if it was so hard then evey coated working and herding dog's tail would be docked.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

No, but seriously. Can someone give me an explanation as to why aussies are docked and not border collies when strictly talking about herding? I'm actually curious.


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## Tetrisash (Apr 17, 2014)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> No, but seriously. Can someone give me an explanation as to why aussies are docked and not border collies when strictly talking about herding? I'm actually curious.


It's hard finding an answer from a more legitimate source, but from what I'm reading from various people, Aussies were primarily cattle workers while Collies worked with sheep a lot. It was more dangerous for an Aussie to herd cattle into a barn, as well as a difference in where they were from. The Aussie came from the Western United States that had really tough vegetation, like burrs and foxtails which did cause tail damage that was hard to treat. It likely started as legitimate reasons and just carried on to modern day as people just got used to Aussies not having tails, along with them being born with a bob tail naturally anyway, and saw it as a standard. The easier hygiene thing is really the only thing going for it, depending on where you live I suppose.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

More and more breeders are no longer cropping tails.

The breeder I will be getting my dog from does not crop her dogs. They are bred for sport/agility not working dogs (who I guess have more reason to have cropped tails).


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

i think ears are cropped and tails are docked.



taquitos said:


> More and more breeders are no longer cropping tails.
> 
> The breeder I will be getting my dog from does not crop her dogs. They are bred for sport/agility not working dogs (who I guess have more reason to have cropped tails).


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> They dock them because they say it prevents the tail from being injured but it's a huge crock, there are many herding breeds who successfully herd with their tails. A good many working breed enthusiasts are trying to get it written into the standards of breeds whose sips have to be docked that they can be shown with or without tails.


Aussies are allowed to show with a tail, if it's longer than 4 inches it's faulted. At ASCA nationals there are always people who come from oversees to compete so there are a lot of tailed aussies to see competing.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

the pics i've seen of Aussies with a tail the tail was definitely longer than 4".



Keechak said:


> >>>>> Aussies are allowed to show with a tail, if it's longer than 4 inches it's faulted. <<<<<
> 
> At ASCA nationals there are always people who come from oversees to compete so there are a lot of tailed aussies to see competing.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> It's hard finding an answer from a more legitimate source, but from what I'm reading from various people, Aussies were primarily cattle workers while Collies worked with sheep a lot. It was more dangerous for an Aussie to herd cattle into a barn, as well as a difference in where they were from. The Aussie came from the Western United States that had really tough vegetation, like burrs and foxtails which did cause tail damage that was hard to treat. It likely started as legitimate reasons and just carried on to modern day as people just got used to Aussies not having tails, along with them being born with a bob tail naturally anyway, and saw it as a standard. The easier hygiene thing is really the only thing going for it, depending on where you live I suppose.


the problem I have with the sheep vs cattle theory is that Border Collie's are quite commonly used for Cattle, sure they were bred for sheep in the Scotland/England border region, but they have been in the US a long time and are commonly used for cattle and have been for a very long time, if cattle work in the US is somehow dangerous to tails, why wouldn't american ranchers have started docking BC's? 

IMO it's tradition, nothing more.


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## Tetrisash (Apr 17, 2014)

taquitos said:


> More and more breeders are no longer cropping tails.
> 
> The breeder I will be getting my dog from does not crop her dogs. They are bred for sport/agility not working dogs (who I guess have more reason to have cropped tails).


Are there? I guess just not in my area (I live in Southeast Missouri). For the life of me I couldn't find a breeder that didn't dock tails.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

doggiepop said:


> i think ears are cropped and tails are docked.


Oh yeah oops I was only half paying attention. You're right. Thanks for the correction!


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

doggiepop said:


> the pics i've seen of Aussies with a tail the tail was definitely longer than 4".


Yes they are allowed to show with long tails, it is just faulted,not a severe fault and not a DQ, when it is longer than 4 inches.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Miss Bugs said:


> the problem I have with the sheep vs cattle theory is that Border Collie's are quite commonly used for Cattle, sure they were bred for sheep in the Scotland/England border region, but they have been in the US a long time and are commonly used for cattle and have been for a very long time, if cattle work in the US is somehow dangerous to tails, why wouldn't american ranchers have started docking BC's?
> 
> IMO it's tradition, nothing more.


That's true, also kelpies and ACDs are cattle herders and still have their tails. I have herded many cattle into a barn and squeeze chutes and I have had a dog injured, but never had a tail injury


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

elrohwen said:


> Cropping ears with scissors is completely different from having a vet dock tails on a neonatal puppy. Not sure why you would think those were at all related?


Quite a few breeders dock tails themselves.... It is NO Big Deal.....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

goodgirl said:


> I guess I view it as related just in the sense something is cut off...I read the thing about phantom pain in a book by Linda Tellington-Jones (T-Touch) the other day. But it was referring to docked tails.


Then you are against spay and neuter as well? Right?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I love Linda Tellington Jones' books, I have the T touch book for horses and its really awesome, esp the part where it has the different conformational makeups of horses and face/muzzle shapes and how they connect to how the horse's personality, that's awesome!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> They dock them because they say it prevents the tail from being injured but it's a huge crock, there are many herding breeds who successfully herd with their tails. A good many working breed enthusiasts are trying to get it written into the standards of breeds whose sips have to be docked that they can be shown with or without tails.


Was it a HUGE crock when my ACD Bandit, Injured his tail pushing stock into a vaccination chute? 

He never yelped or missed a step but was spraying blood.... Ad DESPITE , two towels and a LOT of DUCT TAPE... the interior of my truck looked like a B grade horror film.... An 800 dollar cleanup and a 400 interior cleanup did not make it right... I ended up trading the vehicle..... Lost money there too.

And to repair Bandit's tail... Three inches removed.... 1800 bucks...


That being said.... I am NOT in favor of docking ACDs... They need their tails. Their herding style does not work without a tail... 

But do not think for a second tail injuries are not common. There are tons of working ACDs with tail injuries....

And while I had the tail surgically docked... Because I was an hour run to an E vet and had the cash to handle it that way....


But what happens if a Day worker (a cowboy that works on whatever ranch has work that day.... At least that is what we call them in Florida) has a dog that breaks a tail? Or you are a three hour horse ride to the truck? 

A tail injury is going to BLEED.. A LOT.... A dog could bleed out from it.... 

There are ways to stop bleeding in such a case, but few could stomach it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I wish they wouldn't do it, a dog works better with their tail then without. Also hygiene??? Please :/ it's called a brush.


A tail has no effect one way or another in the way an Aussie works.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

To be honest, I see more docked ACDs than tailed ones. Especially in Texas on the family ranches. One of my friends has a tailed ACD and it looks strange to me still.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> To be honest, I see more docked ACDs than tailed ones. Especially in Texas on the family ranches. One of my friends has a tailed ACD and it looks strange to me still.


Some people Dock ACDs... It is not an uncommon practice....

And in your part of the country there are a BUNCH of Stumpy Tailed Cattle Dogs... And Stumpy ACD crosses....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

All the breeds have reasons behind the reason the tails and ears are done...

I have never researched Aussies... But I suspect they were having a bunch of tail injuries... The tail on an Aussie is not all that robust on tailed dogs. 

Take a doberman.... The dog was a close work protection dog... People say that Doberman wanted a scary dog and he did.... But tax collectors did get attacked by people... And they did use their dogs as defense...

Look a Doberman.. With the traditional working cut...










Now look at the big houndy ears of a natural doberman...










In a real fight those ears are a handle.... A man could use those ears to break the dogs neck....

And since this has come up before... What about the Rottweiler... Natural ears.... Not the same thing.....









Rottie ears flop... But they are not big and houndy... And a Rottie is a VERY different dog than a doberman.... Aside from being larger.... It is MUCH more powerfully built....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Tails of working dogs like the rottie were docked because the owner could avoid a tax on the dog by claiming it as a "working" dog, hence why so many dogs tails from that area and time were docked.

The Doberman's tail and ears are docked for aesthetics, nothing more, nothing less.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And if anyone goes to the field with a GSP with a full tail.... They are NUTS....

Those things a whippy and frail.... You leave enough so that it stands on point and you can see it... But ever seen a bird dog work?










You take a tail like that in the brush and briar patches and this is what happens...


This is what you get... this is after a mornings work in heather... And heather ain't that bad....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Tails of working dogs like the rottie were docked because the owner could avoid a tax on the dog by claiming it as a "working" dog, hence why so many dogs tails from that area and time were docked.
> 
> The Doberman's tail and ears are docked for aesthetics, nothing more, nothing less.


Keep telling yourself that... The points you bring up are pushed by anti tail docking movements... The working Rotties tails were docked because they needed to be.... It makes no difference that people may have avoided paying taxes on a dog by docking its tail...
The ONLY thing that matters is that working Rotties tails were docked.. Because they needed to be..


And you are way off base on Dobes... A man could snap the neck on a Dobe with natural ears in three seconds.


There is a reason behind it...


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Tail docking and dew claw removal on very young puppies is up to the breeders, the future buyer and regulations. It probably all started as something ranchers felt had to be done for whatever reasons. The whatever reason soon turns into a must for showing purposes. I will say pups will cry when this procedure is done. Now some vets will put in a stitch or two in the tails and dews while other vets will not. There is some bleeding when this is done. The worst is if a mother dog constantly licks the tails and dews. The other fault I see quite often is a tail that is not docked to the right length. Rotties with a long nub, Dobies with stumps, and JRTs who tails would be smaller than the width of a man's hand. This bugs me quite a bit. I will say I am liking the looks of a Rottie with a natural tail.
Now someone who has GSD says they will not remove the dew claws because it will cause a dog's feet to go 'flat'. I find this statement hard to believe.

I have a Chihuahua who as an adult had to have it's tail docked. It got damaged while it was playing a game of tag with the other dogs. One dog bit the tail too hard and caused nerve damage..

As far as breeds of dogs who need to have tail dockings done, I vote for the Great Dane. I think that breed of dog leads the list for adult dogs that need to have some of the tail removed. Or that maybe the doors need to be removed in the house. This seems to be the leading cause of why a Great Dane needs a tail docking. 

When my dog had to have its tail removed I did give nerve blocks for 3 days post surgery to help with the pain. The tail healed up just fine.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And LETS say a Dobe did do okay in a fight with natural ears.... They would take damage too their ears... That means Hematomas....

they are nothing to shrug your shoulders at now.. I am sure there was a time they could be life or death....

Crop the ears... LESS chance of Hematoma......


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And if anyone goes to the field with a GSP with a full tail.... They are NUTS....
> 
> Those things a whippy and frail.... You leave enough so that it stands on point and you can see it... But ever seen a bird dog work?
> 
> ...


Pit Bulls being boarded will have the same thing happen to them.. Dang those "happy tails" dogs anyway. 

Was there not a post on here awhile back about some type of hunters who wanted the docking tails to come back because their hunting dogs had damaged tails?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Pit Bulls being boarded will have the same thing happen to them.. Dang those "happy tails" dogs anyway.
> 
> Was there not a post on here awhile back about some type of hunters who wanted the docking tails to come back because their hunting dogs had damaged tails?



Hunters and working dog people in EUROPE are SCREAMING over the anti docking and cropping thing...

And frankly to ban such practices is cruel...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I guess tail do min is much like spaying and neutering, it all comes down to preference. I will say that my tailed ACD is a lot more agile then my docked ACD, in some breeds like herding and working dogs I will always prefer a tail.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I guess tail do min is much like spaying and neutering, it all comes down to preference. I will say that my tailed ACD is a lot more agile then my docked ACD, in some breeds like herding and working dogs I will always prefer a tail.


I have said this on this thread and many times... 

A lack of a tail hinders an ACD.... Which has an EXTREMELY different herding style than an Aussie...

The way Aussies push and move cattle (and the fact that they were originally sheep dogs) A tail makes NO difference.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

As an owner of a docked Aussie, I will never be against docking. I can understand being up in arms about cropping (though I'm not going to sign a petition against that either), but docking is done so young they aren't going to remember it the slightest bit. If it is done responsibly and does not negatively effect the dog in anyway, why does it matter? Go fight the puppy mills and real abuse. 

I like nub-butts and I cannot lie.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And I have not even brought up the "ghost pains" thing.... I was going to leave it alone...

The entire thought of ghost pain does NOT apply to neonatal cropping and docking. Ghost pain pertains to adult amputations.
It does NOT apply to neonatal docking. The process is done at 3 to 5 days for a reason... It is done BEFORE the nerve develops... Ears are done in young dogs as well..

Ghost pain might apply if you chose not to dock a young dog and later had to dock or remove part of the tail because of an injury....
But not in young puppies. 

And if anyone should be concerned with "ghost pain" Given the fact that the testicular and scrotum area is the most sensitive area on a male animal of any species...

So if we are worried about ghost pain we should not be neutering.....


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## Tetrisash (Apr 17, 2014)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> As an owner of a docked Aussie, I will never be against docking. I can understand being up in arms about cropping (though I'm not going to sign a petition against that either), but docking is done so young they aren't going to remember it the slightest bit. If it is done responsibly and does not negatively effect the dog in anyway, why does it matter? Go fight the puppy mills and real abuse.
> 
> I like nub-butts and I cannot lie.


Their little butt nub wiggle is so adorable.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

My Doberman was docked when I got her but I chose not to crop her ears. I have seen pictures of Dobermans with their natural tail and it is quite a long whippety tail carried high over their backs and would rather have them docked but I think it depends on what you are used to seeing. My Rhodesian Ridgeback was forever knocking her tail and getting blood everywhere. Managed to heal it each time but it sure made a mess but they are a breed that was never docked.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Uh, rude. Have YOU ever brushed diarrhea or cow crap out of a coated dog? It's nasty. I certainly don't recommend it. Cleaning up the pants of the dog isn't always so bad, but a tail coated in nasty is AWFUL.


If hygiene was an issue, most dog breeds would have docked tails. But they don't, it's only a few breeds. This is the first time I've heard of hygiene being a reason for docking.

I don't buy most of the reasons for docking actually. All of the reasons you hear commonly, would apply to many breeds that aren't docked. So the only reason to dock is for looks and tradition.

I don't believe it hurts puppies when done correctly. The nervous system isn't fully developed at birth. This is the same in humans, which is why human babies don't cry when they have blood tests done in the first few days after birth. But to say there is a functional reason for docking is just an attempt at justifying docking, because I don't believe for a second that there is any reason to do it other than for looks.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes I have, I don't find it annoying enough to merit cutting off a part of a dogs anatomy. There are plenty of other coated arming breeds (bearded collies, BCs, collies, etc) that I am sure it's equally hard to brush stuff out of their fur and their tails remain.
> 
> Forgive me for being cynical, but if it was so hard then evey coated working and herding dog's tail would be docked.


This has always been my feelings on it.

While I'm not AGAINST docking per say, I guess I just don't see the point. If it were that big of a deal, wouldn't we just dock ALL dog breeds tails out of convenience? 

I understand it's part of "breed standard" but it's really for looks, IMO, and I have heard so many excuses for it, when I wish people would just admit it's for looks mostly nowadays. I understand there are of course going to be more risks with working dogs. But again, there's risks with everything. And most pet dogs have virtually no reason to be docked besides aesthetics. 

Tbh, I know it sounds silly, but it's been a big turnoff for me in picking a breed. I love the Mini American Shepherds and Aussies but the notail thing is becoming kind of a big factor. I just love tails.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> While I'm not AGAINST docking per say, I guess I just don't see the point. If it were that big of a deal, wouldn't we just dock ALL dog breeds tails out of convenience?


Nah, because some dogs have thick tails that aren't really at risk of being injured like the whip-like tails are (I know a tailed pit who is always bashing hers against the wall and leaving bloody marks, for example, but I don't know any labs who do that), and of course breeds like most spitzes, who carry their tails curled up over the back, aren't at much risk of injuring theirs, either (or getting things stuck in them). Coat type would also be a factor... a tailed Aussie would be much more likely to get a tail full of burrs than a great dane would.

That said, I agree that at this point -- and certainly with non-working dogs -- it's mostly for looks and because it's tradition. I don't have a problem with it as long as it's done when they're infants. I am very much opposed to tail amputation after that point, unless it's a medical emergency.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> This has always been my feelings on it.
> 
> While I'm not AGAINST docking per say, I guess I just don't see the point. If it were that big of a deal, wouldn't we just dock ALL dog breeds tails out of convenience?
> 
> ...


Yeah nothing like a big fluffy tail  also if hygiene was the reason, breeds like pyr's and the other LGDs tails would be docked.

I am not saying docking and cropping is a bad thing, heck I is a JRT, a breed whose tails are docked to keep them from getting snagged underground. But the principle BEHIND it doesn't always have a valid reason ... And that's ok ... Just own it


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Nah, because some dogs have thick tails that aren't really at risk of being injured like the whip-like tails are (I know a tailed pit who is always bashing hers against the wall and leaving bloody marks, for example, but I don't know any labs who do that), and of course breeds like most spitzes, who carry their tails curled up over the back, aren't at much risk of injuring theirs, either (or getting things stuck in them). Coat type would also be a factor... a tailed Aussie would be much more likely to get a tail full of burrs than a great dane would.
> 
> That said, I agree that at this point -- and certainly with non-working dogs -- it's mostly for looks and because it's tradition. I don't have a problem with it as long as it's done when they're infants. I am very much opposed to tail amputation after that point, unless it's a medical emergency.


:thumbup:

Not that I would ever dock her tail but Xena hurts me when she greets me in the morning by whipping her tail against my legs. I could see her hurting her tail against something. I have a cousin who's Great Dane had a natural tail and it got hurt and sprayed blood all over the walls for a long time because the wound kept re-opening.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Not all herding breeds do the same work, either, which is also a factor. Breeds like ACDs are meant to get into the thick of things, tending breeds like the GSDs, not so much. Tending is a "hands off" sort of herding, and risk of tail injury is much lower. Quite honestly, even though you could use a GSD to move cattle, it's a really stupid idea. They're too big and too slow to do that kind of work regularly. They're meant to contain animals like sheep and goats, not move them. They're not pushing animals into vaccination chutes or things like that, so risk of (tail) injury is much much lower.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Part of why not all thin tailed dogs are docked is because of the breed standard,like for example a dog with a snow nose or spotted gums is unlikely to win any dog shows either,it's based on appearance and partly tradition. A Great dane with a docked tail would be the same.

Now for some breeds it is pretty un-necisarry but I don't consider it cruel,the traumatic instances I hear of seems to relate towards adult dogs that where docked not newborn. Now with my own breed I've opened up to tailed Rottweilers,Raggy happened to be docked and dew-clawed when I got him.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> All the breeds have reasons behind the reason the tails and ears are done...


Yes, but oftentimes those reasons have now become obsolete. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> Take a doberman.... The dog was a close work protection dog... People say that Doberman wanted a scary dog and he did.... But tax collectors did get attacked by people... And they did use their dogs as defense...
> 
> Look a Doberman.. With the traditional working cut...
> 
> ...


Your argument would hold more stake to me if the ear crop was done close to the head, like is done with (some) LGDs. 










The ear above does not provide a handle, a wolf... or man... could never grab this dog by the ears. However, if cropping a dobe truly is about not letting the ears provide handle, then why these crops? 

















Or the traditional working cut dog you posted. Talk about leaving a handle.  No, it's all about aesthetics. And tradition, depending on where you live. 

Originally, the Dobermann was cropped closer to the head, which makes your argument plausible, that it may have been the original reason the Dobermann was cropped. However, the ear crop became longer and longer over time; quite impractical and quite frankly in contradiction with the original reason (the ear being so short it could not be grabbed). 
(1915 Dobermann)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

While the longer crop is definitely longer, I have tried to grab the ears of some cropped Dobes. When those ears are folded back, they're still hard to grab onto (same as with my natural prick eared GSDs). Just as a general though, I'd wager that Dobermans were cropped so close to the head in the early days in large part because surgical procedures had not advanced very far yet, and people didn't know as much about posting ears.

Knowledge made the longer crop seen to day (which is aesthetic, and I don't have a problem with that) feasible.

I'll also admit to enjoying tradition. I can admire a tailed Rottweiler, but I find a natural Doberman wholly distasteful and lacking in breed type.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Johnny, I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of ACDs work as we don't have too many here in the north. But I can't picture what you mean when you say they work different from Aussies, do you have any videos for me to check out? The Aussie's I am used to like to work close, push hard, and take any opportunity the stock gives them to grip. Most of the Aussies I know make much better cattle dogs than sheep dogs.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I personally wouldn't opt to have my dogs ears cropped or tail docked.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Most reasons why a tail is docked is no longer really an issue. But I for one, still like it. 2/3 dogs I've lived with have had docked tails. Bae Dog was always knocking crap over and was no more agile than Mr. No-tail-Pepper. 

As someone who has docked* day old lambs, it's a very simple procedure and the beasts do not protest. Literally nobody cries. I can't imagine docking and dewclawing a puppy at a fee days old is much different. 

*We used a banding method as it is "bloodless".


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Keechak said:


> Johnny, I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of ACDs work as we don't have too many here in the north. But I can't picture what you mean when you say they work different from Aussies, do you have any videos for me to check out? The Aussie's I am used to like to work close, push hard, and take any opportunity the stock gives them to grip. Most of the Aussies I know make much better cattle dogs than sheep dogs.


Same here, which is why the tail argument is kind of nil. Like I said I don't have any problems with people docking their dogs (as long as the breed standard calls for it) but lets just be honest about the reason if it's done for purely aesthetic, like in the case of he Doberman and I will admit I like a cropped dobes better than a natural one too ... And my reasons are purely aesthetic.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I own a traditionally docked breed and my own dog is docked. I've also only owned docked dogs my whole life and so has my husband so there are a lot of docked dogs out there (schnauzers, Britt, and corgi). I obviously don't have anything against it though I would like my next dog to be tailed, jus because I think they're pretty. It's not a fault for Welsh to have tails and more breeders are leaving them. With tha said, I would not want to hunt a tailed spaniel in thick cover - it would be a mess and take hours to get the burrs out. I can absolutely understand why hunters would dock their dogs.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> While the longer crop is definitely longer, I have tried to grab the ears of some cropped Dobes. When those ears are folded back, they're still hard to grab onto (same as with my natural prick eared GSDs). Just as a general though, I'd wager that Dobermans were cropped so close to the head in the early days in large part because surgical procedures had not advanced very far yet, and people didn't know as much about posting ears.
> 
> Knowledge made the longer crop seen to day (which is aesthetic, and I don't have a problem with that) feasible.
> 
> I'll also admit to enjoying tradition. I can admire a tailed Rottweiler, but I find a natural Doberman wholly distasteful and lacking in breed type.


You raise good points. I have to say I do not like the look of a cropped Dobermann at all, the ears look maimed to me, even if they are well done crops. But those who've read more of my posts are probably already aware of that. I remember many of threads with the same topic in the past. Anyway, give me a natural Dobermann any time of the day. I find them elegant and regal and everything a Dobermann ought to be. 









Don't care about what kind of ears they have, though I admit their gay tails are funny. An angry Dobermann is not so funny. Leaving a dog natural does not change the fact that a Dobermann is a big dark colored dog and intimidating. It has been many years since the bans on docking and cropping here, and one recognizes a Dobe immediately, without fail. They are very distinctive. 

Also, found a Dobermann with rose ears!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> While the longer crop is definitely longer, I have tried to grab the ears of some cropped Dobes. When those ears are folded back, they're still hard to grab onto (same as with my natural prick eared GSDs). Just as a general though, I'd wager that Dobermans were cropped so close to the head in the early days in large part because surgical procedures had not advanced very far yet, and people didn't know as much about posting ears.
> 
> Knowledge made the longer crop seen to day (which is aesthetic, and I don't have a problem with that) feasible.
> 
> I'll also admit to enjoying tradition. I can admire a tailed Rottweiler, but I find a natural Doberman wholly distasteful and lacking in breed type.


I have a dog with large, thin up ears and while they are obviously smaller than a dobe's I can tell you that she can pull her ear out of my hand easily whereas Moby, the Dalmatian I rescued could not have with his thick, houndy ears.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

The only thing I honestly truly hate about long tails on long coated working dogs is the burrs. They are so painful for the dog to get them brushed out and removed at least in the dogs I have seen groomed. Otherwise beyond not wanting to groom that appendage my desire for bobbed tail is aesthetic.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> Yes, but oftentimes those reasons have now become obsolete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Go up and grab even a longer cropped Doberman by the ears and manhandle the dog.... It doesn't work.....

My statements on the ears are accurate.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Go up and grab even a longer cropped Doberman by the ears and manhandle the dog.... It doesn't work.....
> 
> My statements on the ears are accurate.


If you say so. 










A shorter crop would make more sense to me.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> If you say so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That crop is for wolves... The dog sacrifices quite a bit, to not have a handle for a wolf, the dog has No protection from foreign matter and little in the way of directional focus. 

Unless humans start biting and gripping, their is no need to go that far.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> That crop is for wolves... The dog sacrifices quite a bit, to not have a handle for a wolf, the dog has No protection from foreign matter and little in the way of directional focus.
> 
> Unless humans start biting and gripping, their is no need to go that far.


Yes, I wondered if having ears cropped so short would affect their health in any way. I mean, if it is left so open, exposed, all sorts of filth might get in the ear right? How is directional focus affected?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Avie said:


> Yes, I wondered if having ears cropped so short would affect their health in any way. I mean, if it is left so open, exposed, all sorts of filth might get in the ear right? How is directional focus affected?


Dogs can move their ears front, back, and side to side kinda like a horse. With a super short crop, there isn't much ear to direct, thus losing the benefits of having move-able ears in the first place. The pinna (outter portion of the ear) is designed to "catch" sound waves. A dog can hear better when he is able to direct the pinna in the direction of the sound. But that's all lost if there isn't enough ear. 

I think that's what JB is getting after. 

Plus, I think super short crops are fugly.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes I have, I don't find it annoying enough to merit cutting off a part of a dogs anatomy. There are plenty of other coated arming breeds (bearded collies, BCs, collies, etc) that I am sure it's equally hard to brush stuff out of their fur and their tails remain.
> 
> Forgive me for being cynical, but if it was so hard then evey coated working and herding dog's tail would be docked.


Because aussies and acd's totally have the same kind of coat. Oh okay then.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Avie said:


> Yes, I wondered if having ears cropped so short would affect their health in any way. I mean, if it is left so open, exposed, all sorts of filth might get in the ear right? How is directional focus affected?


It does, ESP when done to dogs who have naturally downed ears who has a "rose cut" done has no hair to protect the leftover part of the ear from debris. I have never agreed with rose cuts.

Also of all the places to grab on a dog, the ears wouldn't be one of them, too close to those teeth :/ the dog would likely bite the deal out of you before you had a chance to break their neck. Also it's not what kind of ears a dog has (unless it has long droopy hound ears) it's more the amount of skin/fur on the dog. Josefina has pricked ears but I can easily grab the fur/skin on the side of her head. My Doberman (who had natural ears) I had wasn't so easy to grab, cropped ears or not.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

I'm also wondering how you came to the conclusion that aussies work better with tails OwnedbyACDs? That seems like a pretty brazen statement for someone with no experience with the breed to make.

Anyways, I owned one docked dog and one NBT dog who was docked, because he had around 1/2 of a tail at birth.

To answer the question I suspect part of it had to do with tail injuries while working and part of it was due to the fact that natural bob tails have been present in the breed since the start.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> Dogs can move their ears front, back, and side to side kinda like a horse. With a super short crop, there isn't much ear to direct, thus losing the benefits of having move-able ears in the first place. The pinna (outter portion of the ear) is designed to "catch" sound waves. A dog can hear better when he is able to direct the pinna in the direction of the sound. But that's all lost if there isn't enough ear.
> 
> I think that's what JB is getting after.
> 
> Plus, I think super short crops are fugly.


Thanks for explaining. I dislike those short crops as well, but I guess that doesn't mean much coming from me, since I dislike all ear crops  



OwnedbyACDs said:


> It does, ESP when done to dogs who have naturally downed ears who has a "rose cut" done has no hair to protect the leftover part of the ear from debris. I have never agreed with rose cuts.
> 
> Also of all the places to grab on a dog, the ears wouldn't be one of them, too close to those teeth :/ the dog would likely bite the deal out of you before you had a chance to break their neck. Also it's not what kind of ears a dog has (unless it has long droopy hound ears) it's more the amount of skin/fur on the dog. Josefina has pricked ears but I can easily grab the fur/skin on the side of her head. My Doberman (who had natural ears) I had wasn't so easy to grab, cropped ears or not.


What is a rose cut?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

upendi'smommy said:


> Because aussies and acd's totally have the same kind of coat. Oh okay then.


I haven't always had ACDs, you know. I have always had one or two, but I have had a good many mixes, both with tails any not, a few had a coat fairly similar to an Aussie. 

You know ... Because Aussie have a special kind of coat no other dog has


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> Yes, I wondered if having ears cropped so short would affect their health in any way. I mean, if it is left so open, exposed, all sorts of filth might get in the ear right? How is directional focus affected?


Dogs rotate their ears to "catch sound" Without much in the way of external ears, there is nothing to catch that sound.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Avie said:


> Thanks for explaining. I dislike those short crops as well, but I guess that doesn't mean much coming from me, since I dislike all ear crops
> 
> 
> 
> What is a rose cut?


That LGD about with the ears lobbed off? In this area it's referred to as a "rose cut" ... Though I think it looks like a rose lol, but that's what it's called down here.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Aside from the fact that Aussies and ACDs were developed for VERY different purposes.... It baffles me that owners of both fail to see the differences in the way they work... 

It is not even close... The two breeds working do NOT LOOK anything like each other.... If you were going to pick a breed that Aussies worked similar to, it would NOT be ACDs....

In short... as to why a tail makes no difference whether an AUSSIE has a tail and important for an ACD... It is VERY simple.

When working in tight, When they go in to grip they dart in, grip and dart out....Aussies movements are forward and backwards.
They move up then yield. .

An ACD seldom yields it would rather take a beating from a house cat than give an inch to stock. They are Very much lateral movers. Moving right and left. And when they grip they do not retreat. They go flat let the kick go over them, and are back up..

But what do I know... I have only been involved with livestock and working dogs for 46 years.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have always had Doberman with cropped ears. I will say that there are different styles to a crop. I prefer the medium crop compared to the military crop or the show crop. That is just me. I also do not like the cropped ears that do not stand. I find owner incompliance to be mostly the fault of this.

As far as crop and dock on certain breeds of dogs, sometimes old wives tales are kind of weird at times. As days go by, the reason for certain traditions get lost in the winds of time. 

One more thing totally hate the home crops. You will see these in the pet shop dog mainly on the min pins. I do not like to see all that bell on the bottom and just the tops snipped off. Yuck!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> One more thing totally hate the home crops. You will see these in the pet shop dog mainly on the min pins. I do not like to see all that bell on the bottom and just the tops snipped off. Yuck!


Ugh, yeah. I see it mainly in Min Pins and Mini Schnauzers. One lady I know has 4 Mini Schnauzers and none of them have a vet-done crop (or the vet should be fired if it was a vet who did them). I knew her when she got each pup and their ears were all healed by the time she got them so I'm assuming they were done very young---one Min Pin breeder told me she does them at 3 days with the tails. I can't imagine anybody thinks those crops are better than natural ears. . .well, maybe some people. One Dobe owner told me a bad crop is better than no crop, I don't know how many people feel that way though. Must sell well anyway.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

not a very good one 










compared to


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Aside from the fact that Aussies and ACDs were developed for VERY different purposes.... It baffles me that owners of both fail to see the differences in the way they work...


As I said I have not had the opportunity to see ACD's work in real life as we don't get as many up here, my knowledge of them is limited mostly to photographs. As I asked before do you have any videos I could watch that show proper ACD style on stock?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't think that anyone meant that any one here didn't know their stuff. People have said that their reasons for do king tails or cropping ears was purely asthetic ... So why can't the opposite be true? It's not even about herding at all, a tailed dog who is just PLAYING in a yard will have better steering ability than a docked dog, even if it's not substantial it will be there.

And darn it, I just like my dogs to have tails! LOL

While we are talking about docked tails, is there any way to tell if a dog has a natural short tail or if it was docked? Josefina's tail is kind of the length of a typical JRTs tail and I can't figure out of someone just did a botched crop job or if it is just naturally short.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I don't think that anyone meant that any one here didn't know their stuff. People have said that their reasons for do king tails or cropping ears was purely asthetic ... So why can't the opposite be true? It's not even about herding at all, a tailed dog who is just PLAYING in a yard will have better steering ability than a docked dog, even if it's not substantial it will be there.
> 
> And darn it, I just like my dogs to have tails! LOL
> 
> While we are talking about docked tails, is there any way to tell if a dog has a natural short tail or if it was docked? Josefina's tail is kind of the length of a typical JRTs tail and I can't figure out of someone just did a botched crop job or if it is just naturally short.


It is a risk versus reward thing.... When it comes to a working dog, it is what are the chances of being harmed versus the dogs ability to do the job. 



If her tail is the length of a JRT its docked...


Docked and natural bobbed look different.... As I remember she is docked. But post a picture and I can tell you for sure.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is a risk versus reward thing.... When it comes to a working dog, it is what are the chances of being harmed versus the dogs ability to do the job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean it doesn't matter , she is still an awesome dog, I was just curious to learn how to tell. I will have to post a good butt pic tomorrow as I don't think I have any good pics of her from behind.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Here is the tail in question 

Side view
 

Back view


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I don't think that anyone meant that any one here didn't know their stuff. People have said that their reasons for do king tails or cropping ears was purely asthetic ... So why can't the opposite be true? It's not even about herding at all, a tailed dog who is just PLAYING in a yard will have better steering ability than a docked dog, even if it's not substantial it will be there.
> 
> And darn it, I just like my dogs to have tails! LOL
> 
> While we are talking about docked tails, is there any way to tell if a dog has a natural short tail or if it was docked? Josefina's tail is kind of the length of a typical JRTs tail and I can't figure out of someone just did a botched crop job or if it is just naturally short.


Has there been a way to test a dog maneuverability with a tail versus without one? They don't seem to really use them like cheetahs and from I read people said their was no difference in their running or climbing ability. I`m just wondering because I've seen my dog do some very tight turns and has nice balance without one.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If her tail is the length of a JRT its docked...
> 
> 
> Docked and natural bobbed look different.... As I remember she is docked. But post a picture and I can tell you for sure.


Not always true, There are some NBT's that are just as short as a docked dog. I had no idea that Hawkeye's dam wasn't docked until a few years of knowing her and then the breeder told me that she never docked her because her natural bob was short enough for the standard.

This is Hawk's dam 









The mother to the above bitch was also a natural bob but with a much longer bob,
This is the best photo I can find of Hawk's grandma's tail








She was left undocked because she was born in Sweden.

Hawkeye also inherited the natural bob tail but he had to be docked to fit the standard because it wasn't short enough.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't know, I was assuming she was docked because from what we understand she is a pure bred ACD (though she is from a shelter so there is no way to confirm that LOL) ... just a "poorly bred" one and I have never seen an ACD with a naturally bobbed tail, though that's not to say it doesn't happen. But IME the only ones I have seen that have a NBT were ACD/ASTCD mixes, or ACD/aussie mixes.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Foresthund said:


> Has there been a way to test a dog maneuverability with a tail versus without one? They don't seem to really use them like cheetahs and from I read people said their was no difference in their running or climbing ability. I`m just wondering because I've seen my dog do some very tight turns and has nice balance without one.


I have seen a few articles about this. Ideally you would want to see 2 dogs of similar abilities doing the same thing to see the difference in how the body is used. Here is one showing how dogs use tails to balance. http://agilitymach.hubpages.com/hub/How-Does-A-Dog-Use-Its-Tail-in-Agility-and-Canine-Sport Docked dogs compensate just fine without the tail but it definitely is used for balance.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

If Josefina's tail is docked than I assume whoever did it probably did it at home with a cleaver or something, because its not even the right length :/


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## www.love-my-dog.org (Apr 30, 2014)

I have two Australian shepherds, one with the tail docked, one without. I think its fine either way, but I've heard hygiene and also for the safety of the dog.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> I have seen a few articles about this. Ideally you would want to see 2 dogs of similar abilities doing the same thing to see the difference in how the body is used. Here is one showing how dogs use tails to balance. http://agilitymach.hubpages.com/hub/How-Does-A-Dog-Use-Its-Tail-in-Agility-and-Canine-Sport Docked dogs compensate just fine without the tail but it definitely is used for balance.


I think dogs with docked tails from ~3 days old learn to compensate just fine. An older dog with a tail amputation might struggle a bit more. Cool article!

As someone who was born without a tail, I function alright. 

I would love to see some tailed/no-taoled working dog videos! I know that each breed works stock differently but I'm not in area where watching stock dogs is common. I've only seen a BC work.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Kathyy said:


> I have seen a few articles about this. Ideally you would want to see 2 dogs of similar abilities doing the same thing to see the difference in how the body is used. Here is one showing how dogs use tails to balance. http://agilitymach.hubpages.com/hub/How-Does-A-Dog-Use-Its-Tail-in-Agility-and-Canine-Sport Docked dogs compensate just fine without the tail but it definitely is used for balance.


Hey, I know all those dogs. lol Super super cool shelties.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I have seen it used some,but was wondering if their is any significant difference in movement,of early docked/natural stump versus full tail. Here's a video of a docked Dobe winning a weave contest,now I do notice large dogs do move through weaves a bit differently,often ramming through them over side stepping,with or without tails. But I can tell that if the Dobe had a tail it would move in the same way as the other dogs. It also shows a Aussie for a moment as well so maybe someone that knows agility better than me can chime in. So would their be any differences in movement in two dogs the same size/build docked and intact if you ignore the tail?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_LUiuByyPA&index=166&list=FLJZ981Xc_Gu6CH5bZcK0i5g


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I don't think that anyone meant that any one here didn't know their stuff. People have said that their reasons for do king tails or cropping ears was purely asthetic ... So why can't the opposite be true? It's not even about herding at all, a tailed dog who is just PLAYING in a yard will have better steering ability than a docked dog, even if it's not substantial it will be there.
> 
> And darn it, I just like my dogs to have tails! LOL
> 
> While we are talking about docked tails, is there any way to tell if a dog has a natural short tail or if it was docked? Josefina's tail is kind of the length of a typical JRTs tail and I can't figure out of someone just did a botched crop job or if it is just naturally short.


Hahaha, my aussies are far more agile than quite a few tailed dogs I know.  Both of my docked dogs can turn on a dime at full speed, without issue. 

Broad statements ftw!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

My dog, Bear, who had the tail amp done as an adult does not seem bothered by his now missing tail. He does not seem any faster or slower when he runs and plays. He does not even mind when I rub his little stump. He was very painful when he had to have it removed. He was in extreme pain when it first happened and was quite bothered by the tail. He would yelp in pain and try to bite the tail. I did try to see if the tail would heal but seeing how much pain he was in I decided amputation was best. Right after the amputation he was in pain and I would keep the tail numb with medicine.

My Doberman can out run any dog here but I think that has to do with more of his breed than his tail. 

My MAS can run pretty darn fast and turn pretty sharp even without a tail to steer him. 

When I watch my pack run and play, it is size and body shape that seem to play a big part of being able to turn and compensate for over correction.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Keechak said:


> Not always true, There are some NBT's that are just as short as a docked dog. I had no idea that Hawkeye's dam wasn't docked until a few years of knowing her and then the breeder told me that she never docked her because her natural bob was short enough for the standard.
> 
> This is Hawk's dam
> 
> ...


It is in ACDs and STCD which is what I was referring to.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

It is NOT forward straightline speed... It is lateral movement and turns that is affected.... Two otherwise equal dogs... The tailed dog will change directions and make turns faster than the docked dog..


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is in ACDs and STCD which is what I was referring to.


Interesting, I know that the T-box mutation is what causes the bobbed tail in both Aussies and STCDs but it seems there may yet be a modifier that controls the length that the bob becomes. Aussies have a wide range in their bob length, I take it Stumpys do not have a wide range?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I have actually never seen an ACD (they are usually called Heelers here, I think I was 12 before I knew the real name of the breed) with a tail. For years I just assumed they were born that way because I have seen natural Dobies and natural Rottweilers but never an ACD with a tail. I find that terribly odd. It must be very popular to dock them here. Of course Texas Heelers are also very common here and I don't know if that would have something to do with it or not.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Here is an interesting site about semi lethal bobtails:

http://www.border-wars.com/2011/03/lethal-semi-dominant-bobtail.html


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

IMHO- if someone works their dogs, it's their right to do what they feel is best for those dogs. I do feel that dogs who work need their dew claws removed and probably docked if not also cropped. 

In my situation, the cardigans have gigantic ears and looong tails and from what I've seen those tails help them balance when the make super tight turns, which because we work heavy sheep, they tend to do alot. 

I could not tell you why pemmies were docked, other then to differentiate them from cardigans maybe, and plus alot of them are naturally bob tailed, anyway. 

I can easily tell a natural pem from a cardigan, though. 

With that being said, cardigans are supposed to be drovers and work cattle. While some still do that, it's way more common to see them on sheep and herding instinct is all over the place in our breed...some cardigans head, some gather, some drive, some do all three...

I've never had a tail injury, but we've only done pen work twice.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

A working dog, if the conformation of the dew claw is correct (like if its not loose or anything) needs to have its dew claws, they are, if I had to choose, more important than a tail and IMO even more important if they DONT have a tail.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

Why and how are they more important then a tail? 

My older dog is imported and she has both of her dew claws. They've never caused us any problems, so far, and we've been all over the place together. 

My younger dog has had both of hers removed. 

My younger dog is far more successful on sheep then my older dog and I mean heads and tails better. With no dew claws. She's very agile and athletic. 

The only breed I know of that needs them is that one spitzy breed that hunts puffins and for the life of me I cannot remember what they are called. 

Anyway, but I have known alot of people who have dogs with dew claws that have caused alot of problem. They get caught on things and ripped off. Sometimes, people forget they're there and don't clip them. Typically, I have heard alot of that from people who have dogs that do field work, re the claws getting caught on something and rip. 

I just don't know how necessary they are.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Don't say that to SCH/IPO people, dew claws are kind of like a dog's thumbs. The only kinds of dogs IMO that need them removed are dogs who go to ground hunting, because its very easy to get them caught on roots and such, same reason the tail of the JRT is docked, so it doesn't get injured underground. 

Sheep herding is very different from something like SCH or IPO, the demands of a SCH or IPO dog are much higher than a dog who tends sheep. That being said, the majority of BC's, kelpies, aussies and the like I see have their dew claws. The only time they should be cut is if they aren't fused, or if they are really floppy or in the incorrect place on the leg (like two high).

Dew claws to me on working dogs are very important that if I found out a working dog breeder I was going to buy a puppy from removed them, than I would find another breeder ... stat.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

roxie definitely uses her dew claws every single dday and she isnt even working, i cant imagine a dog without them working.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Until she got so old she wasn't running much I didn't need to trim Sassy's dew claws, they were used during running and she wore them down herself. Here is an article by a sports vet. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf

My google fu is weak today. I am seeing references to Chris Zink, docking tails and knee injuries but nothing substantial. I did find this summary of all we have been reading here however and again it is mentioned in passing. http://www.workingaussiesource.com/diary/chapter_86.htm


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah, tell a working dog person that you intend to snip your dog's dews and they will be all like "why would you want to mutilate your dog?" LOL. 

Mine have always worn theirs down too, even here in the mostly sandy soil. Of course there are certain breeds like the terriers who go to ground that benefit from their dews being cut, but if the dog isn't going to ground, or the dew isn't defective anyway (like if its not a "fixed" dewclaw) than it should remain. The dewclaw isn't a useless piece of skin, left over from evolution like many people think, it is part of their PAW, it is like their thumb. People wouldn't cut off their thumb, So it aggravates me they would do it to a dog. IMO its the same level of mutilation as declawing a cat.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Sheep herding is very different from something like SCH or IPO, the demands of a SCH or IPO dog are much higher than a dog who tends sheep.


This information is TOTALY INCORRECT


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> This information is TOTALY INCORRECT


Please explain how it is.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I"m not a "serious" working person. I mean, yeah, we're getting a hobby farm set up but for me sheep herding is fun and I learn something every single time I go. 

With that being said... I don't know what serious IPO people do. And frankly, that isn't something I'm even mildly interested in. 

What I do know is that my dog has alot of drive and alot of instinct and she's very talented at herding. She's very pushy and she'll grip and hang on if she can and those sheep don't care whether she has dew claws or not. They still move for her. 

I've seen her dive right into a pen full of heavy sheep squaring off at her and she just moves them right on out of there. She may not be a big dog, but she doesn't have to be. 

She's got enough presence to where if she's outside and we're walking by a flock of sheep, she'll turn and look at them and they'll all back up against the fence. That's not something you can "train" into a dog. They either have it, or they don't. 

And she's fast and agile...she can turn on a dime...

If someone says they don't know how a dog can work with out dew claws, maybe I should post one of our herding videos. Because my girl can and does. I keep meaning to post some of our win pictures and herding pictures, but I just never get around to it. 

/dogmomfail


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> Why and how are they more important then a tail?
> 
> My older dog is imported and she has both of her dew claws. They've never caused us any problems, so far, and we've been all over the place together.
> 
> ...


. Cutting off the dew claw is like cutting off a thamb. Dogs can and do use the dew claws in many. Look at the ground where a dog made a hard direction change. You will see the marks left from athe dew claw. It keeps the dog from sliding out in a hard turn. Removing the dew claws also reduces the lateral stability of the joint.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Anyone that thinks a dog does not need its dew claws has never sat in a john boat while a Labrador is climbing. Back in. They hook the side of the boat and hang on using the dew claws


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yep I have seen dogs injure dewclaws from a serious direction change. 

Case and point. Josefina has her dews, Bear, the JRT, being a hunting terrier type, does not. When I play fetch with both of them, there are times where the ball hits a tree and makes a hard left or right, to ring a hard directional change by both dogs. There are times where the JRT has actually Ate it pretty good because he tried to plant and turn and couldn't get the traction.

Dewclaws matter.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I'm curious now about this. I wonder if it's unsafe for my girl to herd if she doesn't have dew claws? My herding instructor has never said anything to me about it. It never even came up casually. 

I'll try to remember to ask when we go this weekend.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Please explain how it is.


I think being potentially trampled by cattle is way higher on the demand scale than latching onto a trained professionals arm sleeve. But that's just IMHO.

TOC! Definitely post some herding videos. I wants see your dogs in action, dewclaws or no.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I really don't think dews matter THAT much. None of my shelties had dewclaws and a couple of the papillons did not have them either. I do think dogs use them on turns though. I've seen enough photos of dogs running agility or something where it is very obvious the dewclaw is connecting to the ground. For that reason I'd prefer my next dog to have dewclaws (and a tail) but I don't think it's the end of the world if they don't have them. I think overall structure matters more on how sound a dog is and how agile. I want a dog that is light weight compared to height and flexible with good angles- not too much and not too little. But that's just for what I need in a dog.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I heard removing dew claws help get the dog out of icy rivers if they fall in,so it likely especially good for working retrievers to keep them. I also don't really see a point in removing the front ones unless it was injured or poorly attached to begin with.

Still I do not consider it the same as removing claws on a cat,cats need them to climb anything and are known to cause lasting pain.

My Rott without dew claws has been more capable and a better climber than the dogs I had with them,but he's also a little smaller.
It's harder to prove than docking because you cant just type in dogs without dew claws doing agility and all that. Now they might need to push with their back feet more to compensate,but I never saw my dog slide all over the place either.

Unfortunately I can't find some of my old photos I took when he was younger with my junk camera,he was more energetic than and I know I have one with a very tight turn he had.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The demands on a dog working sheep are incredibly high! What on EARTH would make you think they're not? Especially when doing tending work. The dogs are supposed to be working hundreds of head of sheep, containing them on their own, with no fence to aid them. They're CONSTANTLY moving, and looking, and pushing sheep off the boundary line (they want to push out to get to the better grass). They're also to be depended on in the event that somebody wants to try and steal any of the flock, and they are EXPECTED TO DEFEND and BITE if necessary.

Herding and IPO demand the SAME drives and abilities.

If you're going to give information on IPO and herding, could you at least make sure it's correct, please?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

As far as dewclaw injuries, we have had one dog who repeatedly rips out nails. He's ripped out 4 I believe? 2 were the same front dewclaw and the others were a back toe and a front toe. The back toe was the one that caused the most issues and he had to go to the vet for it. I don't even think he noticed the dews though it bled a lot on every nail.

I have never had another dog rip out nails so I think it was more of a Beau thing than the fact that he has dewclaws. He was a wild man as a youngster. Always running headfirst into things and just a perpetual ball of motion.

Yes, dogs can tear their dewclaws but they can also tear their other nails too.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here's the Chris Zink article about dewclaws: 

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation.pdf


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> The demands on a dog working sheep are incredibly high! What on EARTH would make you think they're not? Especially when doing tending work. The dogs are supposed to be working hundreds of head of sheep, containing them on their own, with no fence to aid them. They're CONSTANTLY moving, and looking, and pushing sheep off the boundary line (they want to push out to get to the better grass). They're also to be depended on in the event that somebody wants to try and steal any of the flock, and they are EXPECTED TO DEFEND and BITE if necessary.
> 
> Herding and IPO demand the SAME drives and abilities.
> 
> If you're going to give information on IPO and herding, could you at least make sure it's correct, please?


I didn't mean physically harder, in which herding would be physically more difficult. I was referencing the fact that there is the human element in IPO and SCH, where they have to face a human being and not another animal which is something completely differnt and takes a certain type of grit in a dog.

That's all I was saying and I do appreciate the correction to my indigression, it's not necessary to be so patronizing.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> I think being potentially trampled by cattle is way higher on the demand scale than latching onto a trained professionals arm sleeve. But that's just IMHO.
> 
> TOC! Definitely post some herding videos. I wants see your dogs in action, dewclaws or no.


I don't herd with Josefina (no herding drive! Prey drive yes but not herding drive ) but I did with Izze, at the place we were at I used her to push cattle through the squeeze chutes and to keep them back while we put hay out in the winter. Unfortunately I never got any videos  .

But I do play agility and frisbee with her as well as fetch and herding games and I can see that while not AS bad as declawing a cat (perhaps I kind of got carried away when I said that lol) her having dews vs the JRT who does not, and although bigger then him, she can out turn him.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I didn't mean physically harder, in which herding would be physically more difficult. I was referencing the fact that there is the human element in IPO and SCH, where they have to face a human being and not another animal which is something completely differnt and takes a certain type of grit in a dog.
> 
> That's all I was saying and I do appreciate the correction to my indigression, it's not necessary to be so patronizing.


Pretty sure it takes a heck of a lot more grit to face down an angry bull than a human.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

It depends on the dog, I have seen dogs who do SCH and IPO who aren't scared of the livestock they just don't have the right instinct, on the contrary I have seen herders, even cattle herders who are reluctant to face down a human, even some cattle dogs (not all but some, many make good SCH or IPO dogs).


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> they have to face a human being and not another animal which is something completely differnt and takes a certain type of grit in a dog.


They have to face a human in the HGH test. On top of that, courage is courage. The dog needs the same amount of courage to take on a pissed off ram or heifer that it does to take on a man. They could both kill the dog if they had a mind to.

And what I was doing was not patronizing.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I didn't mean physically harder, in which herding would be physically more difficult. I was referencing the fact that there is the human element in IPO and SCH, where they have to face a human being and not another animal which is something completely differnt and takes a certain type of grit in a dog.
> 
> That's all I was saying and I do appreciate the correction to my indigression, it's not necessary to be so patronizing.


A proper australian shepherd temperament should display a guardian instinct, many of the other herders should also display some guardian capabilities with proper temperaments as well. It takes many of the same drives and abilities. *sigh*

ETA: These are all snippets pulled from various herding breed standards. A dog with the proper grit to work stock should also have the proper grit to take on a person IF the situation calls for it. 

"The Cattle Dog's loyalty and protective instincts make it a self-appointed guardian to the Stockman, his herd and his property."

" Reserved and aloof with strangers. Highly territorial, serving as a responsive companion and natural guardian. "

" the Puli is sensibly suspicious and therefore an excellent watchdog. "

". He retains a high degree of his ancestral instinct to guard home and master. "

"In his relationship with humans he is observant and vigilant with strangers, but not apprehensive. He does not show fear or shyness. He does not show viciousness by *unwarranted or unprovoked* attack."

" He is naturally protective of his owner's person and property without being overly aggressive."

". Modern times find him as a watch and guard dog as well as a family friend, guardian and protector. The Bouvier is an equable dog, steady, resolute and fearless"

" To his inherent aptitude as a guardian of flocks should be added protectiveness of the person and property of his master. "

"The Australian Shepherd is primarily a working dog of strong herding and guardian instincts."


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't see how you can disagree when more than one standard specifically calls for a natural guardian instinct, but okay then.  And honestly if you are seeing dogs who are afraid to face down a human in an APPROPRIATE situation, the key word there being appropriate then you are seeing dogs with incorrect temperaments, but I digress.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I didn't mean physically harder, in which herding would be physically more difficult. I was referencing the fact that there is the human element in IPO and SCH, where they have to face a human being and not another animal which is something completely differnt and takes a certain type of grit in a dog.
> 
> That's all I was saying and I do appreciate the correction to my indigression, it's not necessary to be so patronizing.


 You are still on another planet.... Having owned no less than four dogs that have done BOTH bite work, this "human element" thing is something someone made up in their head... It does not exist...

There is NO MYSTICAL Aura that surrounds a man that makes him a more formidable adversary. The dog is going to "read" the threat and level of aggression and act accordingly. It matters not if the adversary is a man, a bovine, a bear, a bison, ostrich.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Because dogs can be hesitant to face down a human in the similar way an ACD does a bull or angry ram, it's one of the reasons dogs wash out of programs. It's not a bad thing and it doesn't mean the dog is bad, just like some herding dogs wash oh of herding, they can go on to make great agility, frisbee of flyball dogs.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You are still on another planet.... Having owned no less than four dogs that have done BOTH bite work, this "human element" thing is something someone made up in their head... It does not exist...
> 
> There is NO MYSTICAL Aura that surrounds a man that makes him a more formidable adversary. The dog is going to "read" the threat and level of aggression and act accordingly. It matters not if the adversary is a man, a bovine, a bear, a bison, ostrich.



This.

As I said before if you are seeing herding dogs who are afraid to face down a person in an appropriate situation, then you are seeing dogs with incorrect temperaments for their breed generally speaking. That doesn't make them "bad" dogs, but an acd or an aussie is not a golden and should not act as such.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> It depends on the dog, I have seen dogs who do SCH and IPO who aren't scared of the livestock they just don't have the right instinct, on the contrary I have seen herders, even cattle herders who are reluctant to face down a human, even some cattle dogs (not all but some, many make good SCH or IPO dogs).


Now you have moved on to another galaxy.....

Have you ever stopped and thought what breed of dogs dominate police, military, IPO, Ring, Mondio..... World wide it is three breeds. Bel Mals, GSDs, and Dutchies..... You watch a show on South African Military... You see those three breeds. Chinese Police... Those same breeds. ANYTHING else is dang near a novelty.... Even Dobes, Rotties etc, have been relegated to area guards. 

And what are Bel Mals, GSDs, and Dutchies? HERDING breeds....

It takes THREE things to do protection work.... COURAGE, Prey Drive and Fight Drive....

It takes THREE things do herding work.... COURAGE, Prey Drive and Fight Drive.....

Now is every herder capable of doing bite work? Or is every bite dog a good herder? No..

But the cross over is HUGE!!!!!!

The same things that makes a good herding dog make a good bite dog.. The dosages are a little different. 
And I am not so much talking about working a few sheep in a round pen herding... I am talking working wild cattle in heavy brush, working cattle at the chute, etc herding. Do you want to push wild stock through a chute with a dog with no nerve? No courage? I don't... Not even on a GOOD seasoned horse.... I WANT a dog with brass balls the size of Texas and a heart the size of Alaska..

You want the same thing if someone is going at your front door with a sledge hammer....


A dog that can work dangerous stock close, can do bite work.....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Because dogs can be hesitant to face down a human in the similar way an ACD does a bull or angry ram, it's one of the reasons dogs wash out of programs. It's not a bad thing and it doesn't mean the dog is bad, just like some herding dogs wash oh of herding, they can go on to make great agility, frisbee of flyball dogs.


That same dog will be hesitant and wash out on dirty stock...... And wash out....


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Agreed 100%, Johnny. Heck, our childhood Sheltie, NOT a herding breed typically associated with protection, faced down and prevented people from entering our house on two occasions, and we never doubted that he would lay down his life to protect us if necessary.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IF a dog cannot face down a 200 pound man.... there is NO way it is going to face down 800 pounds of ticked off steer...1600 pound of mad woods cow mama or a 2500 pound torqued off Santa Gertrudis.... It is NEVER going to happen..

Now some folks get confused....... ESPECIALLY folks that live with ACDs... Some dogs and some breeds are naturally aloof and suspicious of strangers.. And these dogs will avoid, step away from, etc strangers....But that really does mean anything...
Dogs are not in drive when they exhibit that behavior....

To evaluate a dog.... You have to do it in drive.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> IF a dog cannot face down a 200 pound man.... there is NO way it is going to face down 800 pounds of ticked off steer...1600 pound of mad woods cow mama or a 2500 pound torqued off Santa Gertrudis.... It is NEVER going to happen..
> 
> Now some folks get confused....... ESPECIALLY folks that live with ACDs... Some dogs and some breeds are naturally aloof and suspicious of strangers.. And these dogs will avoid, step away from, etc strangers....But that really does mean anything...
> Dogs are not in drive when they exhibit that behavior....
> ...


I can see that,drive can matter. My childhood Malamute mix tried to face off with a angry momma cow before dragging her away,but she would be a poor choice for a herding or guard dog prospect. Not out of fear of either though. She had a high prey drive,that's it.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Now you have moved on to another galaxy.....
> 
> Have you ever stopped and thought what breed of dogs dominate police, military, IPO, Ring, Mondio..... World wide it is three breeds. Bel Mals, GSDs, and Dutchies..... You watch a show on South African Military... You see those three breeds. Chinese Police... Those same breeds. ANYTHING else is dang near a novelty.... Even Dobes, Rotties etc, have been relegated to area guards.
> 
> ...


Well Belgian shepherds,GSD's and Dutch shepherds are about as much herding dogs as the "inferior" Rottweilers,which have been used on cattle and bulls.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Foresthund said:


> Well Belgian shepherds,GSD's and Dutch shepherds are about as much herding dogs as the "inferior" Rottweilers,which have been used on cattle and bulls.


I NEVER said any dog was inferior...... I have owned a Rottweiler and LOVE the breed... And as a personal guard they can ROCK...


But that said, you do no see them in the IPO world very much... And in the police, military world even less... There IS a reason for that.


And you are correct in that you do not see Bel Mals, Dutchies and GSD much in herding use any more... That does NOT mean they have lost it. The SAME characteristics that make them good bite dogs will make them good herding dogs. Someone just has to want to use them for that.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I NEVER said any dog was inferior...... I have owned a Rottweiler and LOVE the breed... And as a personal guard they can ROCK...
> 
> 
> But that said, you do no see them in the IPO world very much... And in the police, military world even less... There IS a reason for that.
> ...


Sorry if I sounded rash. It just sounded like you meant herding dogs like Bel mals,Dutchies and GSD's where common for police ect. work because they are herding dogs,while dogs like Rottweilers where less preferred because their not?
Pretty much all four are as much herding dogs as each other,some may have lost it but not completely. Now Dobes where never bred for herding,I would just say that they have been less common do to less and less working breeding and more and more show and pet breeding instead. Although they where known to be a little more nervy than GSD's to begin with.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

They're still used, but it's all fun and games. The herds of sheep have all but vanished here in the Netherlands. The vast areas of heathland and pastures are disappearing, and with them the herds of sheep tended by dogs. Nowadays sheep are put in a fenced meadow. At most, people keep border collies or kelpies to move the herd in and out the stables and into the meadow, if they need dogs for the sheep at all. 

Many Dutch breeds have been (or still are) in a precarious situation. While the original purpose of the Dutch shepherd has all but disappeared, the qualities that made them great herding dogs have now made them popular police and protection dogs, much like Johnny said, and they're also valued companion dogs for active people. Their focus, eagerness to please and drives have definitely saved them from disappearing into obscurity. 

Well, the shorthair at least (even though the longhair and roughhair have the same temperament).


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I'm not going to come on here and say my corgis could do bite work. Literally, I have zero idea what that would even entail. 

But I have to be honest...while I don't know how much of a hurting they could actually put on someone... They will both square off at people they don't know who come up to the house. 

My younger dog will literally assume a, "THOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!!" stance and they'll hold people at bay that are unfamilliar to them and bark. I've never had anyone try to get past them when they act like that, and that's only happened twice; once with unexpected company and the next with the Fedex guy.

Part of me wanted to apologize for them, but you know what, I didn't. 

They were doing their jobs. 

My dogs aren't necessarily intimidating from a physical perspective. But, any dog who squares off against you and looks you in the eye will probably give you pause.

Rabble- I am the worst dog mom about posting pics. I always mean to and then forget. One of these days, my sieve like brain will remember to do this!!


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

Also...and this is random...

Like, when we go to shows or are in the park and we meet people there, both of my dogs are cool. Both of them wag tails. My younger one will pull to meet new people. 

I don't know why it's different for them when we're at home and new people approach.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> I don't know why it's different for them when we're at home and new people approach.


It's because it's your home, and their territory. Whereas a show or park or whatever is neutral.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

My dogs are also friendly in public or neutral places, but very territorial at home. I think it's a natural behavior for dogs to be more protective of their home turf. It's not a breed thing in many cases ... it's a dog thing.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Avie said:


> They're still used, but it's all fun and games. The herds of sheep have all but vanished here in the Netherlands. The vast areas of heathland and pastures are disappearing, and with them the herds of sheep tended by dogs. Nowadays sheep are put in a fenced meadow. At most, people keep border collies or kelpies to move the herd in and out the stables and into the meadow, if they need dogs for the sheep at all.
> 
> Many Dutch breeds have been (or still are) in a precarious situation. While the original purpose of the Dutch shepherd has all but disappeared, the qualities that made them great herding dogs have now made them popular police and protection dogs, much like Johnny said, and they're also valued companion dogs for active people. Their focus, eagerness to please and drives have definitely saved them from disappearing into obscurity.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean that they where not used for herding at all,but the three breeds like Rottweilers have not been selected solely that trait in a while.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Foresthund said:


> I didn't mean that they where not used for herding at all,but the three breeds like Rottweilers have not been selected solely that trait in a while.


It wasn't a direct response to you.  I just like to chime in about Dutch breeds, haha.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I think position of the dewclaws is important factor also. I have one dog who if I do not keep her dews short and I mean very short she is ripping them off. Hers tends to stick out and not lay flat against her legs like the other dogs. 

I find the back dews to be more problematic of curling and growing into the paw pads more so than the front dews. 

Great now I have to go see who has front dews and who does not. I never paid much attention only during dremel time.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I think position of the dewclaws is important factor also. I have one dog who if I do not keep her dews short and I mean very short she is ripping them off. Hers tends to stick out and not lay flat against her legs like the other dogs.
> 
> I find the back dews to be more problematic of curling and growing into the paw pads more so than the front dews.
> 
> Great now I have to go see who has front dews and who does not. I never paid much attention only during dremel time.


Ha ha I just looked mine over too xD only one dog has back dews.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Ha ha I just looked mine over too xD only one dog has back dews.


ACDs do not have them on the back...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> ACDs do not have them on the back...


Well, I have rescues, not breeder dogs, so I just got curious. The dog who has them is my folks mutt.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I've heard of random breeds of all sizes popping up with hind dew claws,but it is not typical.

Hind dew claws are not fully attached,often very loose,which makes them not real dew claws. They do not touch the ground making it so they do overgrow quickly,as well as being more prone to getting caught and tearing. I would absolutely remove them if I end up with another dog with hind dewclaws.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Well, I have rescues, not breeder dogs, so I just got curious. The dog who has them is my folks mutt.


 I know you have a mix there... I was just saying.... Not much point in looking at the rear legs of your ACDs



Foresthund said:


> I've heard of random breeds of all sizes popping up with hind dew claws,but it is not typical.
> 
> Hind dew claws are not fully attached,often very loose,which makes them not real dew claws. They do not touch the ground making it so they do overgrow quickly,as well as being more prone to getting caught and tearing. I would absolutely remove them if I end up with another dog with hind dewclaws.


The only thing I don't like about Beaucerons.... Those loose sloppy rear double dew claws.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I looked at Wesson's dew claws today. She has very well formed pads by her dews. First time I've ever seen that


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I looked at Wesson's dew claws today. She has very well formed pads by her dews. First time I've ever seen that


Mike does too. To be honest I thought that was normal? I've never seen a dog without front dew claws.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Avie said:


> Mike does too. To be honest I thought that was normal? I've never seen a dog without front dew claws.


My dogs do too (well, Penny and Toby do. Moose's were removed when he was a baby; he has visible scars. Maybe they did them too late? Not as bad as Willow's dewclaw scars though). I think that's normal. Do some dogs not have pads with their dewclaws? 

I've only ever met one dog with rear dewclaws. But it sounds like it's fairly common. . .I must know all the wrong dogs .


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> My dogs do too (well, Penny and Toby do. Moose's were removed when he was a baby; he has visible scars. Maybe they did them too late? Not as bad as Willow's dewclaw scars though). I think that's normal. Do some dogs not have pads with their dewclaws?
> 
> I've only ever met one dog with rear dewclaws. But it sounds like it's fairly common. . .I must know all the wrong dogs .


Is scarring normal? And I don't know, maybe some dogs have jingly loose front dew claws or something, without pads? *shrugs* 

Our neighbors fostered a great Pyrenees mix with rear dew claws (that were so long and sharp they were nearly grown into the pads) but other than that I've only seen them on some mountain dogs, mountain dog mixes, and at dog shows. (on breeds that are supposed to have them) I thought it was uncommon for a dog to have rear dew claws, but I may well be totally wrong.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't _think_ scarring is normal. . .but both dogs I've had who had theirs removed had scars so I guess I don't know for sure. All the other dogs I know well enough to mess with their paws still have their dewclaws so I don't have a lot of comparisons.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Josefina has good dews , they aren't loose or sloppy, buddy is the same way. The mix that has the dews in the back, hers are loose and sloppy : /


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Max has rear dews with really thick nails and large pads but they are loose and floppy. The circle they make is tight and adding in the thickness makes it hard to trim. They each seem at least as wide and thick as all his rear nails on one foot put together judging from all the sanding down I have to do on them. Just massive. Every time he has been under I forget to have them taken off but he hasn't done anything but broken one off one time long ago. We speculate he has some Newfie in there because of them but don't really know. The pads aren't in good shape as they never hit the ground and the skin just grows and grows into unhealthy looking cracked callus looking stuff, every once in a while some will slough off. People don't really see the rear dews as I trim the fur straight down over them and he has big fuzzy feet. His front dews are as strong as the other four nails with tiny healthy looking pads but he doesn't wear them down on his own and never did which makes dew claw trimming around here super fun. One of the front dews has an off center quick and I actually quicked him with the dremel one time.

Max never wore down his front dews, not sure about Ginger. When she came here they were as sharp as cat claws but she hadn't run around for the couple weeks she was at the shelter. I don't need to trim them any more than the rest of her nails at least.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

The dewclaws on mine almost never need to be trimmed any more often than their other nails, so I guess that means they wear them down??? Only the GSD/husky mix has to have hers trimmed .... but than again not more than her other nails, which also have to be trimmed more often than the other dogs because she doesn't run around as much.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

My Rott has slight scarring where his front ones where removed. From my experience the front ones do need to be trimmed a little more than the regular nails,but not nearly as bad as the hind dew claws. It may depend on the dogs activity level too,like with the old Newfie his front dew claws where noticeably longer than his regular nails,likely because of his arthritis he wasn't really using them. While the other dog I had with front dew claws went pretty much at the same rate. Back dew claws tend to be loose and sloppy.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Foresthund said:


> My Rott has slight scarring where his front ones where removed. From my experience the front ones do need to be trimmed a little more than the regular nails,but not nearly as bad as the hind dew claws. It may depend on the dogs activity level too,like with the old Newfie his front dew claws where noticeably longer than his regular nails,likely because of his arthritis he wasn't really using them. While the other dog I had with front dew claws went pretty much at the same rate. Back dew claws tend to be loose and sloppy.


I don't know if many breeds have back dews. Yumi (the one won has them) is a husky shepherd mix, but I don't know if they have back dews or not.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I don't know if many breeds have back dews. Yumi (the one won has them) is a husky shepherd mix, but I don't know if they have back dews or not.


No not many do,outside of specific breeds,it's seen in live stock guardians and some other giant breeds like Newfoundlands. So the Newfie I had was the only dog I had with hind dewclaws. My Malamute/GSD didn't,so it is kind of interesting your Husky/shep did.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Every now and again rear dews will show up on a GSD


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Every now and again rear dews will show up on a GSD


We don't know what she Is for sure but considering that GSDs and huskies are fairly common down here, it's a good bet that's what she is. She is even dramatic like a husky lol.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I know some beagles have rear dews. We used to have a breeder bring in her pups for dew claw removals and we always had to check the rears for dew claws. She is no longer breeding. We do see quite a few rescue beagles come in with them. 

A co-worker has an ACD mix that had rear dew claws. She had them removed during the neutering. She did this because of how the dog walked. He kind of swaggered and swung his legs out prior to the surgery. It has been almost a year since the surgery. The dog no longer swings his hind legs like he used to. His legs are a lot straighter. It was a pain in the butt when the dews were first done, but she is glad now she did it. I wish she had made a video of before and after of his walk. He looks ACD till you see his rabbit ears. He has big stand up ears. 

I have seen some dogs who have had their front dews taken off and as an adult have a little nail deformed growth there.

I am seeing less and less breeders getting the dews done nowadays. Still have a couple of diehards lab breeders that still do it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> I know some beagles have rear dews. We used to have a breeder bring in her pups for dew claw removals and we always had to check the rears for dew claws. She is no longer breeding. We do see quite a few rescue beagles come in with them.
> 
> A co-worker has an ACD mix that had rear dew claws. She had them removed during the neutering. She did this because of how the dog walked. He kind of swaggered and swung his legs out prior to the surgery. It has been almost a year since the surgery. The dog no longer swings his hind legs like he used to. His legs are a lot straighter. It was a pain in the butt when the dews were first done, but she is glad now she did it. I wish she had made a video of before and after of his walk. He looks ACD till you see his rabbit ears. He has big stand up ears.
> 
> ...


Mixes can have rear dews.. And I SUPPOSE it could pop up in a purebred. 

It is not in standard that they must be left on ACDs... But it is frowned on.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Oh its not in the standard that ACDs have to have any of their dews? Even their front ones?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Oh its not in the standard that ACDs have to have any of their dews? Even their front ones?


Well they do not have rear dew claws so it is not applicable. 

But Dew Claws are not mentioned at all in the standard.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Oh you were talking about labs, not ACDs ... sorry for the confusion on my part LOL.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Oh you were talking about labs, not ACDs ... sorry for the confusion on my part LOL.


Huh???????


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Well they do not have rear dew claws so it is not applicable.
> 
> But Dew Claws are not mentioned at all in the standard.


This post ^^^

you were referencing labs, not ACDs, were you not?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> This post ^^^
> 
> you were referencing labs, not ACDs, were you not?


Never mentioned Labs... I was always talking ACD's


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I was surprised that Kris had front dew claws left on as usually with dogs like Dobermans and Greyhounds, they take the front dew claws off to give them a cleaner looking leg if you are showing them. I don't know if they take them off the Racing Greyhounds or not. They never did have hind dew claws. Don't know about other breeds. Some of my Shih Tzu x Maltese have back dew claws, some don't. I have never taken off their front dew claws but would rather they did not have rear ones as they are the floppy kind that the nail grows in a tight circle so you have to trim it more than there other nails. Also have to be more careful when clipping their coats off.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Cara has her dewclaws, and they are tight and have never posed a problem. Snitch's were removed at the same time his tail was docked.


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