# Looking to adopt/purchase a Great Dane, advice needed.



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Good morning everyone! I'm looking for some general advice about adoption versus purchasing from a breeder, and also answers to some more specific questions about interacting with a breeder.

A little info: I lost my six-year-old 130 lb. Great Dane/Shepherd mix after a battle with osteosarcoma recently. He is survived by my eight-year-old 150 lb. Shepherd/Malamute mix. I was (and am) devastated about his loss, as he was truly an exceptional dog. Despite my sadness, I feel as though I have room in my home and heart for another canine companion. 

I have wanted a Great Dane for most of my life, and am finally in a position to add one to my home. I do not need to be told about Great Danes as a breed - I am prepared for leaning, drooling, counter surfing, surrendering at least half of my bed, large food bills and even larger vet bills. I have extensive large dog experience when it comes to lifestyle and training.

The struggle that I am having is as follows: I am having a hard time deciding whether to purchase a puppy or rescue an older Dane. My concerns with purchasing a puppy are as follows: I haven't had to potty train a dog in six years and am slightly concerned about puppy behaviors like chewing. I have also rescued every other dog I have ever owned and feel mildly guilty about going to a breeder. 

My concerns about adoption are as follows: Danes are a breed that require specialized nutrition and care to grow properly, and I am concerned that an older Dane in a shelter has not had that care and may develop issues such as early onset arthritis or other joint problems. While I understand that a long life is never a guarantee, I want to be in control of the healthcare that my dog receives to give it the best chance possible to live a healthy, happy life.

Any advice or insight about these thoughts would be wonderful. That being said, I believe that despite my misgivings (and how much of a pain in the butt it will be to wake up every two hours during potty training), I am leaning towards purchasing a puppy. In which case, more questions follow, as I have never purchased from a breeder: What should I look for while visiting a Great Dane breeder? What information should I ask for? Is it normal to request that I meet the parents of the litter and to ask how many litters they have had previously? What kinds of paperwork/background information should I get on the puppy? Should I ask for a veterinary reference? I don't want to seem overly neurotic and demanding by asking too many questions...

I really appreciate any advice or insight anyone has to offer! Thanks in advance.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm not sure how to answer your question, because it's really something only you can answer. Some people are very committed to rescue, and others really like the added predictability that comes from a breeder. My dogs are from breeders, so obviously I see the benefits of going that route, and for a large breed known for poor health and short lifespan I would be even more inclined to go to a breeder.

As far as the puppy stuff, that's also personal. Some people hate having puppies and others love it. If your only concerns are the potty training and chewing, then those aren't a big deal. Within a couple months the potty training stuff is pretty much done, and chewing can be easily avoided by supervising the pup or using crate/xpens when you can't directly supervise. 

If you do decide to go with a breeder, I would start at the website for the national breed club for a list of local breeders to get you started: http://www.gdca.org/

Great Dane specific forums or Facebook groups may also be a good place to learn about breeders in your area and get some opinions.

Since the breed does have a lot of potential health issues and lifespan is fairly short, I would focus on breeders who prioritize health and longetivity over show wins or color or something. They should be able to show you copies of all health test results, not only for their dogs but also for relatives. They should be able to tell you about relatives of their dogs who have lived long healthy lives. They should know their pedigrees and what they are hoping to get out of their next litter. The breed club website should provide you with a list of health tests that are recommended.

To me, those types of questions are much more important than some you have laid out. The paperwork you get on the puppy when you pick it up will mostly be AKC registration (which any puppy mill can provide), and a contract (which will vary a lot by breeder). The mother should be on site (because she's nursing the puppies), but the father will probably not be. Usually if the breeder has a bunch of males and females and is only breeding her own dogs together, I avoid them. To find a good match you almost always need to look outside of the dogs you personally own. I would ask about how they socialize and raise puppies, and would want them to put in a lot of effort to make sure the puppies were exposed to new people, surfaces, sounds, etc from a young age. I would start contacting breeders now and expect to be on a wait list for someone you really like. Don't expect there to be puppies on the ground and waiting for you right away. Sometimes things work out like that, but don't lower your standards in order to get a puppy right away from someone who has litters every couple months. A good breeder will be happy to answer any and all questions, and will be proud to share all of the health testing info and things they have done with their dogs. If they don't like you asking questions, run away and find someone else.

If you do find a breeder and have specific questions, we would be happy to help. Another member here was all set to go to a breeder until she posted here and we steer here away from someone who was basically a puppy mill. She ended up with a puppy from a much more reputable breeder and is very happy now.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> If your only concerns are the potty training and chewing, then those aren't a big deal. Within a couple months the potty training stuff is pretty much done, and chewing can be easily avoided by supervising the pup or using crate/xpens when you can't directly supervise.


That is good to hear. I am more than capable of dedicating myself to potty training and middle-of-the-night bathroom trips. During Loki's battle with cancer I was giving him medication every three hours for several weeks and then every six hours for several months more. 

I am more concerned about the amount of time getting a puppy reliably potty trained would take (I do understand that this is variable and depends on the puppy in question). I can deal with a few months and the occasional accident afterwards. Six months or more of setting an alarm during the night may become exhausting.



elrohwen said:


> Since the breed does have a lot of potential health issues and lifespan is fairly short, I would focus on breeders who prioritize health and longetivity over show wins or color or something. They should be able to show you copies of all health test results, not only for their dogs but also for relatives. They should be able to tell you about relatives of their dogs who have lived long healthy lives. They should know their pedigrees and what they are hoping to get out of their next litter. The breed club website should provide you with a list of health tests that are recommended.
> 
> *snip* The mother should be on site (because she's nursing the puppies), but the father will probably not be. Usually if the breeder has a bunch of males and females and is only breeding her own dogs together, I avoid them. To find a good match you almost always need to look outside of the dogs you personally own. I would ask about how they socialize and raise puppies, and would want them to put in a lot of effort to make sure the puppies were exposed to new people, surfaces, sounds, etc from a young age. *snip* If they don't like you asking questions, run away and find someone else.


Thanks, this is really the kind of advice I was looking for! I am not at all looking for a specific color or award-winning parents. The only detail I have in my mind is size - I'd prefer a puppy from well-matched parents who are in the 160 lb and up range. I actually tend to prefer solid black versus the highly sought after blues, merles and harlequins. I'll make sure to ask questions about how the puppies are socialized and exposed to new sights/sounds/people etc.

Dogs bred for health are definitely the highest thing on my list of priorities. And yes, I suppose if the breeder seems leery about answering questions it would be best to turn tail and run!



elrohwen said:


> If you do find a breeder and have specific questions, we would be happy to help. Another member here was all set to go to a breeder until she posted here and we steer here away from someone who was basically a puppy mill. She ended up with a puppy from a much more reputable breeder and is very happy now.


Thanks very much for your advice. I'm most likely going to contact several local breeders within the next few weeks in order to begin asking for some information. If I am at all suspicious of their answers or need some more advice, I'll be sure to ask here!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I am more concerned about the amount of time getting a puppy reliably potty trained would take (I do understand that this is variable and depends on the puppy in question). I can deal with a few months and the occasional accident afterwards. Six months or more of setting an alarm during the night may become exhausting.




I think that's pretty unlikely, especially for a large breed with a bigger bladder. Most puppies seem to sleep through the night within the first couple months. Mine is sleeping through the night now at 4 months and she pees constantly when she's awake (still taking her out twice an hour during the day). And even before that she only needed to go out twice a night for 2 weeks and then it was down to once a night. So yeah, I bet with a large breed dog you would have a puppy sleeping through the night quite quickly, within a month.



> Thanks, this is really the kind of advice I was looking for! I am not at all looking for a specific color or award-winning parents. The only detail I have in my mind is size - I'd prefer a puppy from well-matched parents who are in the 160 lb and up range. I actually tend to prefer solid black versus the highly sought after blues, merles and harlequins. I'll make sure to ask questions about how the puppies are socialized and exposed to new sights/sounds/people etc.


In addition to health, I would look for parents who show or do some kind of performance event. I'm not particularly a fan of breeders who don't do anything with their dogs. It's very easy to sit at home and think you have the perfect dogs and then breed them together, when really the dog is not put together well and has a questionable temperament. So I would actually look specifically for parents with a show championship (Ch) or some kind of obedience or agility titles. It's often the case (though not always) that the people putting all of those titles on their dogs are also doing the health testing and trying to improve the lifespan of the breed. Even with champion parents most puppies in a litter go to pet homes, so it's not like they are super fancy dogs not suited for regular people.

Also, 160lbs is a very very large dog. I know you like large, but I would strongly advise against breeders who are breeding for dogs that size. Breeding for extra large size typically goes hand in hand with decreasing health and lifespan. It's just not healthy to try to breed dogs to get the biggest ones possible. Focus on health and dogs within the breed standard size, and steer clear of breeders claiming to have the biggest dogs or who are breeding for bigger and bigger dogs. Worry about finding someone producing the healthiest dogs possible, and don't worry about size. You will still end up with a dog who is plenty large, but it will also be healthy.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Uh, everything Elrohwen said.  



Hiraeth said:


> That is good to hear. I am more than capable of dedicating myself to potty training and middle-of-the-night bathroom trips. During Loki's battle with cancer I was giving him medication every three hours for several weeks and then every six hours for several months more.
> 
> I am more concerned about the amount of time getting a puppy reliably potty trained would take (I do understand that this is variable and depends on the puppy in question). I can deal with a few months and the occasional accident afterwards. Six months or more of setting an alarm during the night may become exhausting.


We got our younger pup at about 12 1/2 weeks and he slept through the night. He did need a later than normal "last call" but we didn't have to get up between ~10/10:30pm and 4:30am. He had a few accidents the first week or so, but increased supervision put a quick end to that. We did (um, still do) have issues with counter surfing, stealing shoes, but chewing furniture was never a problem.



> Thanks, this is really the kind of advice I was looking for! I am not at all looking for a specific color or *award-winning parents*. The only detail I have in my mind is size - I'd prefer a puppy from well-matched parents who are in the 160 lb and up range. I actually tend to prefer solid black versus the highly sought after blues, merles and harlequins. I'll make sure to ask questions about how the puppies are socialized and exposed to new sights/sounds/people etc.
> 
> Dogs bred for health are definitely the highest thing on my list of priorities. And yes, I suppose if the breeder seems leery about answering questions it would be best to turn tail and run!


I know some people aren't overly concerned with titles, but, to me, they are important. They offer some information about the dogs: they can function in a variety of settings, are trainable, likely have a temperament stable enough to attend/participate in shows and sporting events, have been evaluated (in specific ways) by a third party. Also, they tell you something about the breeder: they are interested in their dogs beyond their use for breeding, are active in the larger dog community, are committed to the bigger picture of what their dogs are and can do. 



> Thanks very much for your advice. I'm most likely going to contact several local breeders within the next few weeks in order to begin asking for some information. If I am at all suspicious of their answers or need some more advice, I'll be sure to ask here!


Definitely ask here if you have questions of concerns!


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I think that's pretty unlikely, especially for a large breed with a bigger bladder. Most puppies seem to sleep through the night within the first couple months. Mine is sleeping through the night now at 4 months and she pees constantly when she's awake (still taking her out twice an hour during the day). And even before that she only needed to go out twice a night for 2 weeks and then it was down to once a night. So yeah, I bet with a large breed dog you would have a puppy sleeping through the night quite quickly, within a month.


That is really lovely to hear. I do value my sleep  If I somehow end up with a puppy who needs nightly potty trips for months, then that's just what I end up with and it's part of the commitment, but it's great to know that the odds of that are probably pretty low.



elrohwen said:


> In addition to health, I would look for parents who show or do some kind of performance event. I'm not particularly a fan of breeders who don't do anything with their dogs. It's very easy to sit at home and think you have the perfect dogs and then breed them together, when really the dog is not put together well and has a questionable temperament. So I would actually look specifically for parents with a show championship (Ch) or some kind of obedience or agility titles. It's often the case (though not always) that the people putting all of those titles on their dogs are also doing the health testing and trying to improve the lifespan of the breed. Even with champion parents most puppies in a litter go to pet homes, so it's not like they are super fancy dogs not suited for regular people.
> 
> Also, 160lbs is a very very large dog. I know you like large, but I would strongly advise against breeders who are breeding for dogs that size. Breeding for extra large size typically goes hand in hand with decreasing health and lifespan. It's just not healthy to try to breed dogs to get the biggest ones possible. Focus on health and dogs within the breed standard size, and steer clear of breeders claiming to have the biggest dogs or who are breeding for bigger and bigger dogs. Worry about finding someone producing the healthiest dogs possible, and don't worry about size. You will still end up with a dog who is plenty large, but it will also be healthy.


I suppose I have odd ideas about sizes, as my 150 lb. Shep/Mal does not strike me as an overly large dog.

That being said, I'm not looking to specifically target a breeder who advertises that their dogs are the "largest". I will be paying attention to sire/dam heights and weights and have a tendency to lean towards that weight range versus a sire/dam who are 120-140 lbs. If it looks like someone is repeatedly breeding two massive Danes together to pump out litters of huge puppies, I am not interested. 

I believe 160 lbs is well within the breed standard size for males  If I am able to find someone who breeds dogs of that size whose bloodlines routinely reach the average life expectancy (which I believe is generally acknowledged to be about 8 years) without numerous complications, then I will be satisfied. 

Thanks again for your time and advice. I feel like I am on much more solid footing when it comes to having conversations with breeders about potentially purchasing a puppy.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cookieface said:


> *snip* I know some people aren't overly concerned with titles, but, to me, they are important. They offer some information about the dogs: they can function in a variety of settings, are trainable, likely have a temperament stable enough to attend/participate in shows and sporting events, have been evaluated (in specific ways) by a third party. Also, they tell you something about the breeder: they are interested in their dogs beyond their use for breeding, are active in the larger dog community, are committed to the bigger picture of what their dogs are and can do.
> 
> Definitely ask here if you have questions of concerns!


This is a good point and something I didn't strongly consider. I guess, in my head, I was thinking about prioritizing awards or champion parents as valuing coloration and general appearance over more important things (to me) like temperament and 'trainability'. Which is probably a slightly skewed or misguided way to view it.

I definitely don't want to purchase a puppy from someone who is simply using their dogs as 'cash cows' and repeatedly breeding for profit instead of to promote the future of the breed. I'll keep this in mind while looking around my area for litters I may be interested in!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I suppose I have odd ideas about sizes, as my 150 lb. Shep/Mal does not strike me as an overly large dog.
> 
> That being said, I'm not looking to specifically target a breeder who advertises that their dogs are the "largest". I will be paying attention to sire/dam heights and weights and have a tendency to lean towards that weight range versus a sire/dam who are 120-140 lbs. If it looks like someone is repeatedly breeding two massive Danes together to pump out litters of huge puppies, I am not interested.
> 
> ...




As long as it's within the normal size, then that's fine! I looked up the standard and it doesn't say anything except minimum height at the whithers, and nothing about weight. I figured 140lbs was a more normal size but I don't know much about Danes.

I agree with cookieface that titles are actually a good thing, and indicate a breeder who is trying to have their dogs evaluated by third parties. In some breeds working or sport titles are more important, but for Danes conformation titles are probably a reasonable expectation. The people who care deeply about health are often the ones who are doing more with their dogs and actively working with them and getting titles. Sure there are show breeders who are breeding unhealthy dogs because they win, and people who don't show but do all of the health testing, but they are more rare IME.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> As long as it's within the normal size, then that's fine! I looked up the standard and it doesn't say anything except minimum height at the whithers, and nothing about weight. I figured 140lbs was a more normal size but I don't know much about Danes.
> 
> I agree with cookieface that titles are actually a good thing, and indicate a breeder who is trying to have their dogs evaluated by third parties. In some breeds working or sport titles are more important, but for Danes conformation titles are probably a reasonable expectation. The people who care deeply about health are often the ones who are doing more with their dogs and actively working with them and getting titles. Sure there are show breeders who are breeding unhealthy dogs because they win, and people who don't show but do all of the health testing, but they are more rare IME.


The only standards I have personally read about weight say that males may weigh up to 200 lbs and that females should top out at 140 lbs. However, that was not published on an AKC website (where height is the only size standard that is mentioned) so I'm pretty sure that's not a competition guideline but rather just the top end of the average weight of the breed. Seems to be a rather large disparity between the weights of males and females. 

I've looked at a few advertised litters in the area and am definitely giving preference to the breeders who actively show, considering both your and cookieface's advice. I'd rather pay $1,000 more now and perhaps avoid many more thousands of dollars of vet bills in the future by purchasing a dog who is bred responsibly!


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

If you go with a pup, don't be shy about asking the breeder about longevity in the pup's lines and what specific things their dogs have suffered from / died of. I am not a Dane person, but I have heard rumors of lines that regularly make it to 10 years, and I know bloat is more of a problem in some lines than others. It's a little safer to buy from a litter where both the dog and bitch are older . . . hence have not been hit by early onset diseases.

Here's a clip on the subject from the Great Dane Club website: http://www.gdca.org/health/breeddiseasecontrol.html

First to speak to this question of longevity; one of the most annoying things I think we have all seen is this sort of claim that "my dogs live longer than yours," with very weird quotes of age ranges as average life spans and other improbable stuff. If you are really worried about longevity (and shouldn't we all be; I bet we all are?), then the first thing you do is TRACK your dogs, carefully noting COD (cause of death), along with the date/age, for EVERY DOG (not just parents) in at least the three generations behind what you are now breeding. Yep, that's hard and likely impossible to always accomplish, but still a good goal to shoot for? Until you know how the dogs behind your dogs lived and died, how can you claim you have some trait--any trait at all? Secondly we all have to realize what is and isn't reasonable for a giant dog. To expect a decade of healthy living from a giant is to recognize their natural life span. To claim a lot more or allow a lot less, saying they all should live to 12-14 or all can die at 6-8, is not reasonable.

Thirdly, we have to realize in this breed we have a problem with ADULT ONSET DISEASE. We could talk about this for about 10 hours, but the bottom line with such disease is (a) you need to have quality pedigree info, i.e. you need to know how the dogs behind yours lived and died, and (b) you need to extend your generational period as much as possible. This just means you try to have a 3-4 (or more) year gap between dogs and their offspring, as opposed to breeding a lot of very young animals. This is just logical, for, if your breed is likely to manifest serious disease between 3-6 years, and you do the bulk of your breeding before that, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you are going to be too often stuck trying to shut the proverbial barn door after the horses have left the building. That's why modern science created the frozen sperm? And that's why a lot of old-fashioned breeders prefer to use older stud dogs, especially when going out of their own family of dogs.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

If you want to rescue and/or like the idea of getting an adult, but don't want a totally unknown commodity, you might well be able to find a registered dog with a known, researchable pedigree through a breed-specific rescue or private rehoming. 

In my area it's pretty common to find really nice adult giant breed dogs through rescue, because people in the military get them and take good care of them, but cannot or will not take them along when they PCS (XL+ dogs aren't allowed to fly in the cargo holds of passenger jets out of the airport here). But given that people in general tend to get great big dogs and find out belatedly that they're in over their heads, I wouldn't be surprised if they're fairly common in rescue elsewhere, too.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I want to agree with what everyone else said. Absolutely make sure that they are doing genetic health testing such as OFA and CERF. Not just a "vet check" or health certificate. Also, if you don't want to feel guilty about going to a breeder, you want to make sure you are buying from the most responsible kind of breeder. I will only buy from breeder who requires me (and other buyers) to return the dog to them if anything so happened that I cannot care for them. This is keeping the dogs out of shelters and responsible breeders CARE about that. Oh and I'd expect to pay over a grand, maybe even two or so. 

That being said, you could always try your local Dane rescue and see what they have. Sometimes health is really just a crap shoot, no matter how much you stack the odds in your favor. I have a dog from a great breeder with wonderful dogs and I won the allergies lottery. You might end up with a dog that outlives the dog you may have bought from a breeder. You really never know.. but you will love the dog that you have for as long as you have it.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Don't feel guilty if you decide on a breeder as long as it's a reputable breeder.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sandgrubber said:


> If you go with a pup, don't be shy about asking the breeder about longevity in the pup's lines and what specific things their dogs have suffered from / died of. I am not a Dane person, but I have heard rumors of lines that regularly make it to 10 years, and I know bloat is more of a problem in some lines than others. It's a little safer to buy from a litter where both the dog and bitch are older . . . hence have not been hit by early onset diseases.


This is great advice. I saw a litter advertised that was thrown by a female who "was not fully grown", according to the breeder. I just thought, 'uhhh... Then why are you breeding her?'. I'm giving preference to sires/dams who are in the 4-7 year old category.



parus said:


> If you want to rescue and/or like the idea of getting an adult, but don't want a totally unknown commodity, you might well be able to find a registered dog with a known, researchable pedigree through a breed-specific rescue or private rehoming.
> 
> In my area it's pretty common to find really nice adult giant breed dogs through rescue, because people in the military get them and take good care of them, but cannot or will not take them along when they PCS (XL+ dogs aren't allowed to fly in the cargo holds of passenger jets out of the airport here). But given that people in general tend to get great big dogs and find out belatedly that they're in over their heads, I wouldn't be surprised if they're fairly common in rescue elsewhere, too.


There is a Dane rescue in my area, however they require that every potential adopter have a "large, fenced yard". I do not have a large, fenced yard. I do understand the underlying reasoning behind this requirement, however I don't personally believe that having a fenced yard is a guarantee of exercise or quality care - it often means that people have a place to put a dog to 'ignore' it for a few hours, in my experience.

Because I don't have a fenced yard (or a large yard), my dog(s) get 15 minute walks in the morning before work and 30-45 minute walks in the evening, along with about 30 minutes of play/training time.

I *like* to think that my home is a pretty wonderful place for a dog. Exercise, mental stimulation, toys, good nutrition... I take vet care and the well-being of my animals very seriously. I spent over $10k on Loki's vet bills before he succumbed to osteosarcoma several months after diagnosis, because he was my dog and it was my responsibility to provide him with a comfortable remainder of his life. I will do anything it takes to ensure that my animals are cared for. Yet, because I don't have a fence, I am automatically disqualified from adopting from a vast majority of rescues in my area, which I find quite sad.



ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I want to agree with what everyone else said. Absolutely make sure that they are doing genetic health testing such as OFA and CERF. Not just a "vet check" or health certificate. Also, if you don't want to feel guilty about going to a breeder, you want to make sure you are buying from the most responsible kind of breeder. I will only buy from breeder who requires me (and other buyers) to return the dog to them if anything so happened that I cannot care for them. This is keeping the dogs out of shelters and responsible breeders CARE about that. Oh and I'd expect to pay over a grand, maybe even two or so.


I will make sure to avoid breeders that aren't offering genetic health testing. Also, yes, I really enjoy the idea of people taking responsibility for the puppies they produce and requiring their return if anything should happen.

Fortunately, since I am looking for a black male, I might get away with spending $800. Black is really undesirable, apparently; litters with mixed colors often have merles/blues/harles priced at $1,200 and the one black pup at $800.

Thanks again for all of the help and advice, everyone. While I was feeling uncertain about the whole prospect a few days ago, I'm feeling more comfortable with what to keep an eye out for now. You guys have set me up to purchase what will hopefully grow into a healthy, happy, horse-sized dog


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Thanks again for all of the help and advice, everyone. While I was feeling uncertain about the whole prospect a few days ago, I'm feeling more comfortable with what to keep an eye out for now. You guys have set me up to purchase what will hopefully grow into a healthy, happy, horse-sized dog


That's awesome! We're always happy to help!

As payment for our services you have to come back and post a million pictures after you get your pup


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I realized I didn't address your concerns about breeders vs rescues (and that point appears to be moot, now). Still, I know when I was looking, I valued the experience and perspective of others. 

When we first started looking for a dog, I was fairly anti-breeder. I was also fairly uneducated. In my mind, breeders were irresponsible, greedy, and kinda shady. Then - _fortunately_ - I came here (and to other online groups) and learned. And continued to learn. And met actual responsible, caring, generous breeders - much like the ones you are likely to find given your comments. They are the ones working to ensure a great future for their breed of choice. My definition of responsible breeder continues to evolve as I learn, but I have never regretted supported the woman who produced my two wonderful pups.



elrohwen said:


> That's awesome! We're always happy to help!
> 
> As payment for our services you have to come back and post a million pictures after you get your pup


This ^^^ And please share more about Danes, as you have a great deal of experience. The giants are among my favorites.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cookieface said:


> I realized I didn't address your concerns about breeders vs rescues (and that point appears to be moot, now). Still, I know when I was looking, I valued the experience and perspective of others.
> 
> When we first started looking for a dog, I was fairly anti-breeder. I was also fairly uneducated. In my mind, breeders were irresponsible, greedy, and kinda shady. Then - _fortunately_ - I came here (and to other online groups) and learned. And continued to learn. And met actual responsible, caring, generous breeders - much like the ones you are likely to find given your comments. They are the ones working to ensure a great future for their breed of choice. My definition of responsible breeder continues to evolve as I learn, but I have never regretted supported the woman who produced my two wonderful pups.
> 
> ...


I think most of my reservations about purchasing from a breeder are just because I feel as though there are so many dogs that are at risk of euthanasia if they don't find homes. I feel a bit guilty that I'm not helping a dog who is *truly* in need.

As it is, I believe that my eventual plan is to have three Danes at a time - one breeder purchase and two older rescues (if I can find a rescue that accepts that I don't have a fence ). This way I can control the development of one dog and give it the best chance to live a long, healthy life, while also providing homes to older Danes who may only have a year or two of life left and are therefore less likely to get adopted.

It will be really hard to adopt dogs who have a limited time left on this earth, however when I think of how many dogs that gives me an opportunity to save and provide with a comfortable last few years, it makes me feel very happy.



elrohwen said:


> That's awesome! We're always happy to help!
> 
> As payment for our services you have to come back and post a million pictures after you get your pup


Will do  My father used to joke that Loki could have been in the Guinness Book of World Records for most photographed dog... At some point I will get around to adding photos of him to my profile/sig, but I can't bring myself to look at them just yet.

I'm sure I'll also be posting puppy related questions here and there. I've been a lurker for a long while and will most likely be more active in this community in the future  How could anyone resist being part of a group of great, friendly people who love dogs?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I think most of my reservations about purchasing from a breeder are just because I feel as though there are so many dogs that are at risk of euthanasia if they don't find homes. I feel a bit guilty that I'm not helping a dog who is *truly* in need.
> 
> As it is, I believe that my eventual plan is to have three Danes at a time - one breeder purchase and two older rescues (if I can find a rescue that accepts that I don't have a fence ). This way I can control the development of one dog and give it the best chance to live a long, healthy life, while also providing homes to older Danes who may only have a year or two of life left and are therefore less likely to get adopted.
> 
> It will be really hard to adopt dogs who have a limited time left on this earth, however when I think of how many dogs that gives me an opportunity to save and provide with a comfortable last few years, it makes me feel very happy.


Sounds like an awesome compromise! I'll probably have rescues at some point, but, well, it's a long story... The short lifespan is hard. My former boss used to rescue Danes until the heartbreak became too much. Now she has basenjis.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I met a couple at Tractor Supply who had 3 Danes with them . One was a rescue they had gotten off craigslist. He had been tied to a shed his entire life, and was double dapple or whatever they call it in Danes so his eyes are underdeveloped and his hearing isn't great (they said their vet determined he can see and hear but not well). So his previous owners just wanted to be rid of him. A proper rescue isn't the only option for rescuing a dog---check with your vet, craigslist, put the word out that you're willing to adopt an older Dane (when you're ready to do that, of course). I think you'll find more than you would think :/.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cookieface said:


> Sounds like an awesome compromise! I'll probably have rescues at some point, but, well, it's a long story... The short lifespan is hard. My former boss used to rescue Danes until the heartbreak became too much. Now she has basenjis.


I think I am setting myself up for a lifetime of joy and repeated heartbreak. Loki's loss was very recent, and I believe he was the best dog I will ever own. We were attached at the hip, and sometimes it frequently hits me really hard that I will never hug him again. I still cry before I fall asleep every night because he's not snoring in my ear, kicking me in the face and drooling all over my pillow. If I can endure his loss and carry on, I can't imagine much else being quite as bad. 

I hope the joys and the difference I can make will outweigh the losses.



Willowy said:


> I met a couple at Tractor Supply who had 3 Danes with them . One was a rescue they had gotten off craigslist. He had been tied to a shed his entire life, and was double dapple or whatever they call it in Danes so his eyes are underdeveloped and his hearing isn't great (they said their vet determined he can see and hear but not well). So his previous owners just wanted to be rid of him. A proper rescue isn't the only option for rescuing a dog---check with your vet, craigslist, put the word out that you're willing to adopt an older Dane (when you're ready to do that, of course). I think you'll find more than you would think :/.


I see a lot of health issues in those "desirable" recessive color combos that are obviously the result of repeated closed-line breeding. Deafness, blindness, early onset arthritis, bone abnormalities, etc. I'm so happy I prefer the aesthetic of a solid black dog - I'd be even more paranoid if I was after a blue or fawn merle puppy (though oh my goodness, have you seen a fawn merle? They are beautiful, just not exactly ethical to breed for). 

I'm hoping there's some sort of Great Dane club/meet up around here that I can get involved in. My boss owns Min Pins and gets together with other Min Pin owners for picnics and such a few times a year. That would probably be a good venue through which I can get information about dogs needing homes


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Have you ever attended a dog show? You could probably find quite a few Dane breeders there. 

Also, you might want to keep your eye on private rehomes as well. There are plenty of people who get giant breed dogs only to give them up at 5 months old because they are "getting too big". I watch my local facebook rehoming group and craigslist.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Have you ever attended a dog show? You could probably find quite a few Dane breeders there.
> 
> Also, you might want to keep your eye on private rehomes as well. There are plenty of people who get giant breed dogs only to give them up at 5 months old because they are "getting too big". I watch my local facebook rehoming group and craigslist.


I have. I attend smaller dog shows at expo centers around my home, as well as the large one at Cobo Hall in Detroit every year. There always seems to be a noticeable lack of Danes when I'm there, though... Other giant breeds are usually well-represented, whereas there are normally only a few Danes that I can see. Perhaps it's simply because I arrive later in the day, after the Danes have already been shown and cleared out somewhat.

I'm considering getting on the waiting list for a local breeder, however I'm struggling with the fact that I don't want to wait *too* long and most of the lists are for 2016 pups. Potty training in the middle of winter sounds like the worst kind of nightmare, so I'd prefer to have a puppy be at least 4 months old before the snow arrives. I'm also in a situation where I can handle a puppy and its needs (frequent bathroom breaks, going out at night) now, but I work at U of M, and Oct-March are horrendously busy. I can arrange my schedule so that I can drive home on lunch for potty breaks and short walks, however I'd rather not be sleep deprived during that period of time. I'm sort of a monster when I'm really tired...

I understand that I need to compromise and be patient, so I'm hoping things align perfectly to meet all of these needs. I don't particularly want to wait until February 2016 before I am adding another dog to my family. 

Facebook is a good idea. I'll search around and see what I can find. There have to be organizations in the Ann Arbor area!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Great Dane Rescue operates in Michigan (along with other states) and only requires a fenced yard for a deaf Dane.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Other giant breeds are usually well-represented, whereas there are normally only a few Danes that I can see. Perhaps it's simply because I arrive later in the day, after the Danes have already been shown and cleared out somewhat.




Often short-coated easy-to-groom breeds are shown first thing in the morning because they require little time to prepare for the ring, so you may very well have missed them.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Shep said:


> Often short-coated easy-to-groom breeds are shown first thing in the morning because they require little time to prepare for the ring, so you may very well have missed them.


That makes SO much sense! Argh. I usually go to the shows with the intention of seeing Danes and Wolfhounds and have been frustrated quite a few times by missing the Danes. 

Guess I'll be waking up extra early for the next show I attend!



Shell said:


> Great Dane Rescue operates in Michigan (along with other states) and only requires a fenced yard for a deaf Dane.


I have been keeping an eye on their site to see if anything that suits my household pops up


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

About a week before the show the steward company publishes a schedule, so you could find out exactly when the danes are going to be in the ring.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> About a week before the show the steward company publishes a schedule, so you could find out exactly when the danes are going to be in the ring.


See, that would be the *smart* thing to do  

I usually go to shows with my father and a few friends, so I end up running my day around their schedules instead of forcing them to operate within mine. 

I've contacted a few breeders with litters of pups in my area, but I'm really struggling to find a litter from 150-160 lb parents with a black male pup. I probably need to be slightly less specific in one department or another...


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Hiraeth said:


> There is a Dane rescue in my area, however they require that every potential adopter have a "large, fenced yard". I do not have a large, fenced yard. I do understand the underlying reasoning behind this requirement, however I don't personally believe that having a fenced yard is a guarantee of exercise or quality care - it often means that people have a place to put a dog to 'ignore' it for a few hours, in my experience.
> 
> Because I don't have a fenced yard (or a large yard), my dog(s) get 15 minute walks in the morning before work and 30-45 minute walks in the evening, along with about 30 minutes of play/training time.
> 
> ...


IME a lot of rescues waive that particular requirement if the adopter can demonstrably still give the dog a secure environment and sufficient exercise.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I believe, after making several phone calls, I have found the type of breeder I'd feel confident buying a dog from.

Most of the breeders I've called (who I got the feeling were backyard breeders, but I felt the phone conversations would give me a bit of experience talking about puppies), who just said 'yeah, I have puppies, you can show up and pick out the one you want', this woman was different. She immediately starting talking about the pups bloodlines, their sire/dam's show history, their longevity and any health issues in the line. The grandparents of these pups all lived until at least 9 and she said that she can e-mail me information so I can research the lines myself if I would like. The pups are also being raised in an environment with the breeder's grandchildren (9 kids that are 9 and under) and horses next door. She is home with them every day, as she doesn't work due to disability, and says that most of her puppies are learning to respond to 'sit' at 8 weeks when they go to their new homes.

The pups come with dew claws removed, eye, elbow, spinal and hip examinations as well as an overall wellness check. She provides a two year health guarantee for any genetic issues the pup may develop and insists that the pup is returned to her if it ever needs to be rehomed.

This is the second litter from this particular bitch - two puppies in her first litter (with a different sire) reached 200 lbs. This sire is a full blooded European harlequin and is even bigger than the other - he stands 41" at the shoulder. The dam is a half European mantle and is 37" at the shoulder.

I have a viewing set up for Sunday (the pups were born July 14th, so won't be ready to leave home until the weekend of Sept 19th) to pick out the pup I want. There are three mantle males, one mismarked mantle male, three mismarked merle females and a mismarked mantle female. Four other harlequin pups from the litter have already been sold to repeat buyers. I'm leaning towards one of the larger mantle males at the moment - he was 8.2 lbs at his 3 week weigh-in and he is not the largest in the litter.

I'm very excited and I hope everything goes well on Sunday! I'm optimistic, but am also going to be realistic when I get there - things can sound great over the phone, but I could arrive to an entirely unexpected situation. However, this woman *really* seemed to care about her dogs and asked me a ton of questions about myself as well to ensure that I was prepared for the breed and its challenges. So I am really hoping that it works out and I'll have a new puppy to plan for!

Whew. Wrote a novel, sorry. Just kind of excited. It's the first time I've been looking forward to something since I lost Loki. It's a good feeling


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Hiraeth said:


> I believe, after making several phone calls, I have found the type of breeder I'd feel confident buying a dog from.
> 
> Most of the breeders I've called (who I got the feeling were backyard breeders, but I felt the phone conversations would give me a bit of experience talking about puppies), who just said 'yeah, I have puppies, you can show up and pick out the one you want', this woman was different. She immediately starting talking about the pups bloodlines, their sire/dam's show history, their longevity and any health issues in the line. The grandparents of these pups all lived until at least 9 and she said that she can e-mail me information so I can research the lines myself if I would like. The pups are also being raised in an environment with the breeder's grandchildren (9 kids that are 9 and under) and horses next door. She is home with them every day, as she doesn't work due to disability, and says that most of her puppies are learning to respond to 'sit' at 8 weeks when they go to their new homes.
> 
> ...


Is she showing her dogs? A lot of byb toss out the European bloodlines - it's not a selling point for me, more of a red flag. She has the health testing posted on the OFA site as well and has given you the information to look it up?

I know you're excited, but there is still way too little information here to think this is a reputable breeder - I strongly suggest you check out the Danes Online forum (both the website and on FB).


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> Is she showing her dogs? A lot of byb toss out the European bloodlines - it's not a selling point for me, more of a red flag. She has the health testing posted on the OFA site as well and has given you the information to look it up?
> 
> I know you're excited, but there is still way too little information here to think this is a reputable breeder - I strongly suggest you check out the Danes Online forum (both the website and on FB).


Yeah, I agree with all of this. Could be a good breeder, but not sure yet. The European bloodlines throws me off. Is she just trying to say that she breeds big dogs? Because I've seen comparisons between American and European style danes and I don't know that the European style dogs would win here. Is she actually showing her dogs? Just having "champion bloodlines" doesn't mean anything as far as health or quality or temperament.

One thing that was a bit of a red flag to me (in addition to what Loki Love mentioned) is that the breeder promises that they go home with elbows and hips examined. You really can't examine puppies to see if they have elbow or hip dysplasia. The only way to know is to do x-rays after the dog is 2 years old and send them to OFA for an eval. You can try x-rays a bit younger and send them in to be examined, but they are not conclusive. A vet could look at x-rays and give an educated opinion, but only OFA or PennHip can really make the determination. So promising that they have been checked for all of these things at such a young age is a bit misleading.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Hiraeth said:


> I believe, after making several phone calls, I have found the type of breeder I'd feel confident buying a dog from.
> 
> Most of the breeders I've called (who I got the feeling were backyard breeders, but I felt the phone conversations would give me a bit of experience talking about puppies), who just said 'yeah, I have puppies, you can show up and pick out the one you want', this woman was different. She immediately starting talking about the pups bloodlines, their sire/dam's show history, their longevity and any health issues in the line. The grandparents of these pups all lived until at least 9 and she said that she can e-mail me information so I can research the lines myself if I would like. The pups are also being raised in an environment with the breeder's grandchildren (9 kids that are 9 and under) and horses next door. She is home with them every day, as she doesn't work due to disability, and says that most of her puppies are learning to respond to 'sit' at 8 weeks when they go to their new homes.
> 
> ...


Sounds good to me but I'd still check up. To my knowledge, hip examinations on pups are not possible because the bone is not formed . . . usually one looks for hip and elbow info on sire and dam and hopes their good traits were passed on to the pups. I don't know about spinal exams on pups, but it's worth reading about how much can be learned at an early age. I tend to distrust making decisions based on color, and I'd rather have the breeder suggest a pup based on temperament and what you are looking for (though in my experience Danes are usually pretty mild tempered and it may be that the pups are pretty similar). 
The European vs. American thing, in my opinion, should be ignored altogether. focus on learning about what's behind the pup. Basically, all Danes are European. It's just a matter of when they or their ancestors came to the US. The US and European standards are more or less the same.

Note, all bloodlines have some faults. If anyone claims their lines are clear of everything, suspect they're either lying or not paying attention. Goal is to minimize problems. All bloodlines carry some genetic risk. 

I hope this litter turns out to be exactly what you're looking for and you find yourself a pup that turns out to be the dog you've been dreaming of.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Loki Love said:


> Is she showing her dogs? A lot of byb toss out the European bloodlines - it's not a selling point for me, more of a red flag. She has the health testing posted on the OFA site as well and has given you the information to look it up?
> 
> I know you're excited, but there is still way too little information here to think this is a reputable breeder - I strongly suggest you check out the Danes Online forum (both the website and on FB).


She is not currently showing her Danes, as her disability and care of her grandchildren prevent her from having the time. And yes, the health testing is posted on the OFA site. The sire, who is owned by a different woman, is currently being shown and also has OFA information posted.



elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I agree with all of this. Could be a good breeder, but not sure yet. The European bloodlines throws me off. Is she just trying to say that she breeds big dogs? Because I've seen comparisons between American and European style danes and I don't know that the European style dogs would win here. Is she actually showing her dogs? Just having "champion bloodlines" doesn't mean anything as far as health or quality or temperament.
> 
> One thing that was a bit of a red flag to me (in addition to what Loki Love mentioned) is that the breeder promises that they go home with elbows and hips examined. You really can't examine puppies to see if they have elbow or hip dysplasia. The only way to know is to do x-rays after the dog is 2 years old and send them to OFA for an eval. You can try x-rays a bit younger and send them in to be examined, but they are not conclusive. A vet could look at x-rays and give an educated opinion, but only OFA or PennHip can really make the determination. So promising that they have been checked for all of these things at such a young age is a bit misleading.


No, I don't think she threw out "European" to say she breeds "big" dogs. I actually didn't even tell her I was looking for a certain size - she brought it up in order to warn me that her dogs don't grow into the tall, slender Danes that a lot of people find aesthetically pleasing. They tend to be thicker and stockier with a more block-headed appearance.

The vet exams aren't meant to be an 'end all, everything is okay for the rest of their lives', it's more of a checkup to make sure there aren't any glaring issues in their early development. Her 2 year health guarantee means I can take the dog in at 2 years of age, have the checkups done, and if there are issues, I can contact her about it. 

I imagine that my excitement and attempts to convey what happened in a 45 minute conversation in a few brief paragraphs lend themselves to gaps and questions  These are all good things for me to keep thinking about, though, and to keep in mind when I visit!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> No, I don't think she threw out "European" to say she breeds "big" dogs. I actually didn't even tell her I was looking for a certain size - she brought it up in order to warn me that her dogs don't grow into the tall, slender Danes that a lot of people find aesthetically pleasing. They tend to be thicker and stockier with a more block-headed appearance.


But people generally don't show European style Dane in the US. So to me, that says she's not breeding show quality dogs and she's not having them independently evaluated. That would not be good enough for me, personally, since I want to go to breeders who do something with their dogs rather than hang around at home. That's a decision you have to make. But I would not consider this breeder a show breeder at all, whether she did it in the past or not. It sounds like that was something you were interested in.



> The vet exams aren't meant to be an 'end all, everything is okay for the rest of their lives', it's more of a checkup to make sure there aren't any glaring issues in their early development. Her 2 year health guarantee means I can take the dog in at 2 years of age, have the checkups done, and if there are issues, I can contact her about it.


Since you can't do hip, elbow, or eye checks until 2 years old, the health guarantee until age 2 doesn't really cover the big important things. Not that it would be a deal breaker for me, just pointing out that it's not as good of a contract as you might think.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> But people generally don't show European style Dane in the US. So to me, that says she's not breeding show quality dogs and she's not having them independently evaluated. That would not be good enough for me, personally, since I want to go to breeders who do something with their dogs rather than hang around at home. That's a decision you have to make. But I would not consider this breeder a show breeder at all, whether she did it in the past or not. It sounds like that was something you were interested in.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you can't do hip, elbow, or eye checks until 2 years old, the health guarantee until age 2 doesn't really cover the big important things. Not that it would be a deal breaker for me, just pointing out that it's not as good of a contract as you might think.


Looks like I forgot to mention the sire is being shown in the UK. Ha, that would probably have been useful info to convey... 

Since it's a two year health guarantee, it actually covers the pups until they're two years and two months old. I asked her to clarify if it meant 'two years' or 'until the dog is two', so she explained. She structures the contract in this way so that owners have two months after the dog turns two to schedule a vet visit and get all of the necessary tests done. At that point, if any concerning things show up in the tests, I'd contact her and we'd discuss the issues.

Outside of that contract, there is no way in heck I'm owning a Great Dane without purchasing a health insurance plan 

I'm definitely going to be careful and make sure I have a microscopic lens working in my mind while I'm there on Sunday. This is a big financial investment for me - the pups are all more expensive than my initial intended price range (mismarks are $1,400, show markings are $1,600 and one huge, very lovely looking mantle male is $2,000). So I want to be very careful and very sure about my decision before I make it.

ETA: She also provided me with a list of references, including the owner of the sire (who I can't call, but I can e-mail), the owner of the mother's mother and four previous customers. While I'm somewhat skeptical about reference lists in general, I will definitely be contacting a few of them (or all of them) before putting a deposit down.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Since it's a two year health guarantee, it actually covers the pups until they're two years and two months old. I asked her to clarify if it meant 'two years' or 'until the dog is two', so she explained. She structures the contract in this way so that owners have two months after the dog turns two to schedule a vet visit and get all of the necessary tests done. At that point, if any concerning things show up in the test, I'd contact her and we'd discuss the issues.


I like the thought behind it, but it can take a couple months to get OFA results back, so even two months after turning two years old is probably not enough time to find these things out.

If you did get confirmation that the dog had a health issue, like HD, what does the contract promise? I mean, personally I wouldn't want a new dog at that point obviously, and I wouldn't expect the breeder to cover all of the health costs. These things happen sometimes even with the best of lines. So I'm just curious. I like having some sort of health contract, but overall they turn out to not be super useful.

Good luck with your decision. Don't be afraid to back out! Sometimes people like the idea of a breeder and even after some red flags pop up there's this feeling like "Well, I really want a puppy, and they were super cute, and I'm already invested so I'm sure it's fine." Don't be afraid to back out and start over again. There will always be other breeders out there if this one doesn't work out. It happened to another member here and she is thrilled that she walked away from the first breeder and found someone else.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I like the thought behind it, but it can take a couple months to get OFA results back, so even two months after turning two years old is probably not enough time to find these things out.
> 
> If you did get confirmation that the dog had a health issue, like HD, what does the contract promise? I mean, personally I wouldn't want a new dog at that point obviously, and I wouldn't expect the breeder to cover all of the health costs. These things happen sometimes even with the best of lines. So I'm just curious. I like having some sort of health contract, but overall they turn out to not be super useful.
> 
> Good luck with your decision. Don't be afraid to back out! Sometimes people like the idea of a breeder and even after some red flags pop up there's this feeling like "Well, I really want a puppy, and they were super cute, and I'm already invested so I'm sure it's fine." Don't be afraid to back out and start over again. There will always be other breeders out there if this one doesn't work out. It happened to another member here and she is thrilled that she walked away from the first breeder and found someone else.


I'd have to read the exact wording (it's in my e-mail and several pages long, haven't had time to look it over), but I believe the contract promises coverage of vet visit costs as well as the cost of medications and treatments for genetic disorders. 

Honestly, I'm not putting *too* much stock into a contract - if I buy a puppy, I view myself as solely responsible for the coverage of its health costs outside of something that is clearly the direct result of negligent breeding. As you said, even "good" lines of dogs can develop issues and there's no way to ensure that every puppy from every litter someone breeds will be 100% totally and completely healthy for its entire life. 

I definitely won't be afraid to back out. It's a large financial commitment. I will be making a lot of sacrifices to afford this. I'm not going to compromise very much when it comes to these types of issues. Realizing I probably wasn't going to find a solid black male within the next few months was compromise enough


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, to me this is fine. I know a lot of people want the breeders actively showing, but I just don't care. Concern about where the puppies are going and health testing the breeding stock is about all I ask for. A couple of years worth of health guarantee is as good as it gets for MOST breeders. I mean definitely look into her closely, look into the environment, but if you like what she is producing, she is health testing and breeding thoughtfully to improve the breed, and you're comfortable with your money going to her producing another litter of pups -

OK! AWESOME.

...I no longer give two whits about showing in most dog breeds. I'd prefer to see SOME kind of assessment, but that's a preference not a deal breaker, and that can be a CGC on the parents for all I care. Just something that demonstrates that dogs have good temperaments and ability to learn (though in working breeds I'd prefer working titles, we're talking danes here), and again: Not a deal breaker.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

what health testing is done on the parents & grandparents?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I would ask her if she has any history of HOD or Pano in the line. More so HOD since it can be much more severe than Pano. That is something I would want to know with this breed, and my breed, since GDs and Weims seem to be the most affected with HOD. If she does not know what HOD is that would be a red flag to me, since great dane breeders should know what it is.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

InkedMarie said:


> what health testing is done on the parents & grandparents?


She has current OFA certs for mother/father and OFA certs for 3 out of 4 grandparents. She also has VWD screenings and thyroid testing for both parents. The father is currently CERF-Eye certified (or whatever she said the equivalent is in the UK), but the mother's certification has lapsed. 

I think that's everything she mentioned...



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I would ask her if she has any history of HOD or Pano in the line. More so HOD since it can be much more severe than Pano. That is something I would want to know with this breed, and my breed, since GDs and Weims seem to be the most affected with HOD. If she does not know what HOD is that would be a red flag to me, since great dane breeders should know what it is.


She said these lines have no history of HOD or Pano and only one case of osteosarcoma she is aware of, in one of the sire's brothers (I think?). They do, however, have problems with bloat. She lost a three-year-old male from this dam's litter (so her brother) due to a heart attack while on the operating table with bloat. She said we could talk about preventative tacking - none of her dogs are tacked, but both of the 200 lb. males from one of her previous litters are. 

I'm going to do some independent and extensive research about tacking before I make that choice, but hearing her opinion would be welcome.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

I'd be impressed if I were you. She knows the pedigree to some depth and is telling you about the bad as well as the good. 
Cruciate tear is another thing to ask about. It seems to be pretty common (and very expensive) in Danes.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sandgrubber said:


> I'd be impressed if I were you. She knows the pedigree to some depth and is telling you about the bad as well as the good.
> Cruciate tear is another thing to ask about. It seems to be pretty common (and very expensive) in Danes.


That is something I didn't think of asking about, despite the fact that I know it's common, and it would be a good thing to discuss with her tomorrow! I have a bit of a running list, so I've added this right on.

Overall, I'm impressed with her over the phone. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for the best, but sometimes phone conversations versus reality can be totally different things. 

While the puppy will come with a health certificate from this breeder's vet, I plan on getting the puppy evaluated for basics at my own vet upon purchase, as well. Can never be too careful with a giant, vet bill happy breed


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Well, I've put a deposit down on a pup. The woman's property and facilities were gorgeous, it was a big relief to see such a clean, well-kept home. 

She owns 5 adult Danes (the mother included), four of whom are giant, healthy, happy dogs. The mother's condition was not great - she was very thin, but active. The breeder said she is mixing in hamburger and high fat foods in with the mother's regular food, along with giving her vitamins, but until the pups are weaned, her weight won't improve much. Is it normal for a nursing mother to be thin? Honestly, if I had only seen the mother and I had not seen the beautiful condition her other four dogs were in, I would probably have opted to not put a deposit down. However, she showed me pictures of the mother before birth, where she looked very thick, well-muscled and healthy, so I decided to move ahead with it.

Upon entering the puppy room, the entire litter was asleep, however started waking up when they realized strange people were there. One pup hopped right up, took a few running steps towards me (at 25 days old!), walked the rest of the way, and just sat at my feet. I put my hand down and he pawed at it, then immediately crawled into my lap and started chewing on my shirt when I sat down. I pretty much felt like I had been chosen, at that point. He is, of course, the largest in a litter - he's about a pound heavier than the next largest puppy. He's a show marked mantle with a lovely thick white collar and huge front paws. Also the most expensive pup in the litter, but like I said, I had been chosen and that was that. 

Overall, I'm really happy with my choice. I suffer from no delusions, I think puppy ownership is going to be a pain in the butt. However, seeing this breeder's dogs, how healthy and happy and devoted to her they were, I will try to keep in mind what a great dog he'll be after the terrible puppy phase is over.

Here he is: 

















Since I have no puppy size reference in my head, as I usually adopt full grown dogs, he's 25 days old in that photo and weighs 8 lbs (and a few ounces). For people with puppy experience, how much do pups of other breeds weigh (generally) at this age? 

I will be picking him up on 9/18/15, so 4 days after his 2 month birthday. Can't wait!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Congrats! I hope everything goes well with the pup and the next month flies by


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

The pup looks like a sweetie. In answer to questions: some dams look bedraggled, especially around the time the pups are weaned, especially with a large litter. I wouldn't worry about it.
With Labradors, I figure a bit below one pound per week is good weight gain, and I'm not bothered by half that. So I'd guess 8 lb @ 25 days is on the high side for a Dane, but not excessive. Happy to be corrected if there are any Dane breeders out there who have real data on puppy weights. Just don't take pride in how big he is and feed him too much. Bigger isn't better with pups.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Oh my HUGE puppy! LOL he is gorgeous! Are you keeping the ears natural?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sandgrubber said:


> The pup looks like a sweetie. In answer to questions: some dams look bedraggled, especially around the time the pups are weaned, especially with a large litter. I wouldn't worry about it.
> With Labradors, I figure a bit below one pound per week is good weight gain, and I'm not bothered by half that. So I'd guess 8 lb @ 25 days is on the high side for a Dane, but not excessive. Happy to be corrected if there are any Dane breeders out there who have real data on puppy weights. Just don't take pride in how big he is and feed him too much. Bigger isn't better with pups.


I'm glad to hear that about the dam - she did look exhausted. The breeder has started doing brief separations and allowing the pups to be without their mother for several hours between feeding times, so perhaps that was part of the reason she looked 'bedraggled', which is pretty much a perfect word to describe her. She was lovely to me, walked up and greeted me and licked my hands, but she really just wanted back in the room with her puppies. 

Most assuredly, concerning his weight. I was actually heading there with the idea in my head that I wanted a mid-size pup in the litter, considering the size of the parents and grandparents. I *definitely* did not want the largest puppy. I also didn't particularly want a show marked mantle. So he's pretty much everything I wanted to avoid, physically. I'm concerned about how big he'll get, and will have to be even more conscious of what I feed him than I would have been with one of the smaller pups (who are all around 7 lbs and a few ounces). 

It was this pup's playful personality and clear desire to be near people that really captured my attention. And at the end of the day, personality is what I really wanted. This woman's other dogs were adorable. The two 170 lb females were running about in the yard, and one of them absolutely loved my dad. When he was sitting in the kitchen she rolled onto her back and started waving her front legs around in the air so that he would play with her. She is this pup's half sister and I hope he ends up with some of her wonderful personality. She's 20 months old and they're planning on breeding her in 2017... If I'm in the market for another one at that point, I will *definitely* be wanting one of her pups. She was just delightful.



InkedMarie said:


> Oh my HUGE puppy! LOL he is gorgeous! Are you keeping the ears natural?


Yes, I'm planning on keeping his ears natural. While I find cropped ears aesthetically more appealing, I won't be putting him through that discomfort for my own personal tastes. I've had more than my share of owning a beloved pet who was in large amounts of pain lately, and don't want to deal with anything but a comfortable, happy, healthy dog


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Keep in mind that puppy size does not necessarily correlate to adult size. Often the tiniest puppies in the litter grow into normal or large adults. So he may end up bigger, or he might end up average when compared to his littermates.

Is she going to do an official temperament eval at 7-8 weeks? That's typically when most breeders do it. You can tell some things about temperament earlier on, but you can tell more and more as they get older.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Keep in mind that puppy size does not necessarily correlate to adult size. Often the tiniest puppies in the litter grow into normal or large adults. So he may end up bigger, or he might end up average when compared to his littermates.
> 
> Is she going to do an official temperament eval at 7-8 weeks? That's typically when most breeders do it. You can tell some things about temperament earlier on, but you can tell more and more as they get older.


I hope he ends up average. "Average" in this litter will probably be around 165 lbs, and that would be perfect. Seeing this woman's 190 lb 9-year-old male was great, as he was still active and playful, but it made me realize that somewhere in the 160-170 lb range would suit me perfectly.

The pups get a full physical and their next round of shots on September 5th, then the temperament eval on the 6th. They're technically 8 weeks old on Tuesday, September 8th, but pick up day will be the weekend following, as she refuses to let puppies go before they're 8 weeks old, even only a few days before (which I'm fine with, but apparently other buyers have wanted earlier pickups).

I was a bit concerned about going to see the puppies and making a choice while they were *so* young. I feel like some of them have started developing personalities, like the one I chose, another really robust, active harlequin female and then a third merle female who was such a trouble maker. She kept biting the other puppies as hard as she could and making them cry. NONE of the other pups displayed that kind of behavior in the two and a half hours I was there, so she was definitely uniquely mischievous. Some of the pups were (I think) still a little taken aback by not having their mother around constantly, and they had been fed about an hour before I got there, so some were really sleepy when I arrived. 

I think assessing them accurately at just over three weeks old is probably pretty difficult, even for an experienced breeder. She seemed to have some ideas about who was more docile versus who started trouble (like that merle female), but definitely made it clear that they're just developing and that they will be changing rapidly over the next several weeks.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

I guess I'm unsure about the temperament eval since the pups are already earmarked for certain people. What would be the point? Most people do the eval so the breeder can decide where the pups are best suited.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Galathiel said:


> I guess I'm unsure about the temperament eval since the pups are already earmarked for certain people. What would be the point? Most people do the eval so the breeder can decide where the pups are best suited.


She explained the eval as more of a "see how the puppy responds to certain stimuli" kind of thing, so that their future owners can get a basic understanding of how their puppy behaves in certain situations, i.e. do they approach a large, unfamiliar object willingly, or are they timid about new sights/sounds/smells/experiences. This way when the owners take the pup home, they can have a base-level awareness of how their puppy may respond to being in a new house, surrounded by new people/animals/objects and won't be alarmed if their puppy who was evaluated as 'timid' acts a little afraid. 

I think it's more of a brief test for the pups who have already been sold, and a more in-depth evaluation of the pups still available for purchase (if there are any) so that she has more information for potential buyers. 

That's what I got out of her explanation, at least. She said that by 8 weeks old, she generally can evaluate a puppy for a buyer, but that some of her buyers prefer to see a 'professional' behavior analysis done. Personally, it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm going to be able to discern more about the puppy's behavior in the first day of ownership than could ever be covered by a brief temperament test.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Usually puppy evals are done before the puppies have been assigned to new homes, or at least to confirm initial thoughts. All of the breeders I have met will choose which puppies go to which home (or narrowing it down and giving owners a choice between two), vs letting people choose out of the whole litter.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Usually puppy evals are done before the puppies have been assigned to new homes, or at least to confirm initial thoughts. All of the breeders I have met will choose which puppies go to which home (or narrowing it down and giving owners a choice between two), vs letting people choose out of the whole litter.


I personally wouldn't be interested in allowing a breeder to choose which puppy I was allowed to buy, so I'm happy I wasn't put in that position. I actually haven't heard of many breeders saying "I've chosen what's right for you, you can choose between these two puppies". Then again, I'm very inexperienced in the puppy purchasing department.

To each their own, but if I'm paying thousands of dollars for a puppy and I'm fairly knowledgeable about the breed and I've determined that I can accommodate its requirements, I wouldn't like my choices to be that limited.

I guess I can see that being the case for litters that are specifically bred for show or performance. Show/performance breeders probably want the highest quality/best colored puppies of their litter to go to show/performance homes so that the puppy can excel and do well in its particular discipline and therefore reflect positively on the breeder and its lines. If this breeder had the option, the puppy I chose would have gone to a potential show home - he has beautiful coloring and a thick white collar on his neck, which is the most desirable mantle pattern. However, instead of limiting me based on her own desires, she let me make my own choices with her input, which I was very happy about.

ETA: I can also see limiting a family's options if they have particular requirements, like if there are small children in the home or if they have other pets, etc. In that situation, a temperament eval at 8 weeks would greatly help to determine which puppy would fit well into their home. As it is, I have no such requirements - no kids, no cats, older calmer dogs, experience in training large breeds with food/toy/human/dog aggression... When it comes to what I can handle in a future dog, I'm pretty limitless. It has to be a dog who will enjoy my company, that's about it


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I personally wouldn't be interested in allowing a breeder to choose which puppy I was allowed to buy, so I'm happy I wasn't put in that position. I actually haven't heard of many breeders saying "I've chosen what's right for you, you can choose between these two puppies". Then again, I'm very inexperienced in the puppy purchasing department.


I would say the majority of people I consider reputable will pick puppies, actually. It's really hard to determine temperament from meeting puppies once, vs the breeder seeing them day in and day out. If all of the puppies are relatively the same as far as suitability for a pet home, then alright, but in general I wouldn't trust your average buyer to walk into my home and pick their own puppy after knowing them for 20min. Here's a really good blog post on it:
Check out point #5:
http://rufflyspeaking.net/puppy-buyer-ettiquette/

Also this one:
http://rufflyspeaking.net/the-tragic-myth-of-being-chosen-by-a-puppy/

I helped with the puppy evals on Hazel's litter, so I guess I did get to pick my own puppy, though the breeder and co-breeder already knew which one they thought was the best fit for me. But I can tell you that we sat for a couple hours and worked out which puppies should go to which homes. None of them were show or performance homes except for me, but they had various living environments, kids/no kids, various levels of experience, etc. Also, the breeder somewhat wanted me to take the best show puppy, but when we did her temperament test she was very independent and not at all interested in interacting with me, so I didn't chose her. That wasn't really something we could have known at 3 or 4 weeks.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I would say the majority of people I consider reputable will pick puppies, actually. It's really hard to determine temperament from meeting puppies once, vs the breeder seeing them day in and day out. If all of the puppies are relatively the same as far as suitability for a pet home, then alright, but in general I wouldn't trust your average buyer to walk into my home and pick their own puppy after knowing them for 20min. Here's a really good blog post on it:
> Check out point #5:
> http://rufflyspeaking.net/puppy-buyer-ettiquette/
> 
> ...


Interesting. It makes sense, in some ways, especially when evaluating puppies for performance/show. I think it also probably makes sense to carefully place some breeds more than others, especially when taking children and other pets into account.

It would be difficult with a litter like this, though. While personality should be the primary factor in choosing a puppy, appearance is a secondary factor that can't be completely ignored. Some people dislike mantle, some people dislike merle, some people dislike harlequins. This litter had some of each of those colors - if I had driven there in six weeks and had been told that I could only choose between two merle females because they were determined to be "right" for me, I would have walked away.

I'm not too concerned - I fall on the 'nurture' line of nature/nurture, and am pretty sure that I would have been very happy with just about any puppy in that litter, temperament-wise. A large majority of adult Danes I've interacted with tend to be somewhere between the "pet me right now or I will die" and "pet me right now or I will crawl on top of you and die" markers on the affection scale 

ETA (quote from one of the linked articles): 



> My responsibility is to the BREED first. That’s why my first priority in placing puppies is the show owners, because they are the ones that will (if all goes well) use this dog to keep the breed going. It’s not that I like them better than I like you; it’s that I have to be extremely careful who I place with them so that they can make breeding decisions with the very best genetic material I can hand them.


This was exactly my point earlier, however. I don't want to be excluded from choosing a puppy that would otherwise fit my lifestyle perfectly because I'm not a "show home". At the end of the day, the buyers are the customers, and the people who keep the breeding operation going, so saying that the breeder isn't there to make the buyers happy is a bit of a stretch.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Hiraeth said:


> I personally wouldn't be interested in allowing a breeder to choose which puppy I was allowed to buy, so I'm happy I wasn't put in that position. I actually haven't heard of many breeders saying "I've chosen what's right for you, you can choose between these two puppies". Then again, I'm very inexperienced in the puppy purchasing department.
> 
> To each their own, but if I'm paying thousands of dollars for a puppy and I'm fairly knowledgeable about the breed and I've determined that I can accommodate its requirements, I wouldn't like my choices to be that limited.
> 
> ...


I like when a breeder makes the choice or narrows it down. They know the puppies. They know who is laid back, who's crazy energetic, who are show prospects etc. I have a puppy coming early next year; the breeder will be making the choice or offering a choice. She had an available puppy a few months back but that pup needed a performance home 7 that sure isn't us!
You said you're inexperienced; this is common for reputable breeders to do this.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> You said you're inexperienced; this is common for reputable breeders to do this.


Right, I would say it's more common than not.

I think it's also common for people new to the breeder thing to think "Wait, but I want to choose my own puppy! That makes so much more sense!" So I get it, and I get why it seems like a strange way of doing things at first. But I do think in the long run more people are happy with their puppies when the breeder chooses.

And of course in litters with lots of color options they would give the buyer some vote on color, but it can't be the primary deciding factor. I know Aussie and Border Collie people who go in saying "I really prefer color X" and end up with color Y and end up loving it and thinking it's the best color in the world.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

InkedMarie said:


> I like when a breeder makes the choice or narrows it down. They know the puppies. They know who is laid back, who's crazy energetic, who are show prospects etc. I have a puppy coming early next year; the breeder will be making the choice or offering a choice. She had an available puppy a few months back but that pup needed a performance home 7 that sure isn't us!
> You said you're inexperienced; this is common for reputable breeders to do this.


I didn't make my choice completely without her input. She was definitely very in tune with her puppies, and could tell me which ones played more frequently and which ones were a bit more docile, which ones were the first to move forward when confronted with a new person or experience and which ones tended to hang back. She asked me questions about what kind of puppy/dog I'd be looking to add to my home, what kind of temperaments I prefer, etc. She recommended that I didn't choose several of the females as they showed a lot of hesitation around her four adult Danes. She also recommended against the quietest male. 

I got the feeling that she was directing me in a non-forceful way to puppies that she thought would fit my requirements, and perhaps she would have said 'no' if I had gone against her advice and chosen one of the ones she was subtly pointing me away from. I don't know, because I took her advice to heart and considered puppies that appeared to be a bit bolder. I spent about 20 minutes with 4 groups of two puppies each and was there for almost two and a half hours before making my decision.

I don't think her allowing me freedom of choice makes her disreputable. I think it means that she cares for the buyer experience and wants to make sure that she caters both to her customers and to her puppies simultaneously.



elrohwen said:


> And of course in litters with lots of color options they would give the buyer some vote on color, but it can't be the primary deciding factor. I know Aussie and Border Collie people who go in saying "I really prefer color X" and end up with color Y and end up loving it and thinking it's the best color in the world.


I hope I end up thinking mantle is the best color in the world. It's actually my least favorite, next to brindle. I much prefer black, fawn, blue or harlequin, or even merle or mismarked mantle. 

I decided to not let that influence my decision and to pay attention to the breeder's advice and the puppy's newly emerging personalities to make my choice  Here's hoping my aesthetic sensibilities change!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I decided to not let that influence my decision and to pay attention to the breeder's advice and the puppy's newly emerging personalities to make my choice  Here's hoping my aesthetic sensibilities change!


We didn't say that it makes her disreputable, just that the majority of reputable breeders won't allow puppy buyers to pick puppies so young. You hadn't heard of it, so we were just letting you know that it's very common.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> We didn't say that it makes her disreputable, just that the majority of reputable breeders won't allow puppy buyers to pick puppies so young. You hadn't heard of it, so we were just letting you know that it's very common.


Out of curiosity, do reputable breeders (or a majority of them), not do presales based on gender/color? For instance, if I was an active show home and wanted a harlequin female from a particular bitch/sire combo, would the breeder refuse me a puppy until they determined that it was a fit personality-wise? It seems like that would take perhaps a very lengthy period of time to get a color/gender/personality combo that would fit someone who is very particular about what they want. And I have to imagine that a lot of people who show dogs are very particular about what they want.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Out of curiosity, do reputable breeders (or a majority of them), not do presales based on gender/color? For instance, if I was an active show home and wanted a harlequin female from a particular bitch/sire combo, would the breeder refuse me a puppy until they determined that it was a fit personality-wise? It seems like that would take perhaps a very lengthy period of time to get a color/gender/personality combo that would fit someone who is very particular about what they want. And I have to imagine that a lot of people who show dogs are very particular about what they want.


Correct. Most breeders would prefer that you take the best puppy for you no matter what the color. But if you had to have color X and there was no puppy in that litter that fit the personality and structure you needed, then they would ask you to wait for the next litter. And yes, show people are picky, but usually not about color. They want a color that isn't mismarked, and I know in Danes there are lots of rules about what color can be bred to what so a breeder might be limited with what fits into their program. But most people don't go to an Aussie breeder and say "I must have a blue merle female, show quality, with the correct temperament for performance". They drop the color requirement first to get the dog that best fits their other needs. Color should be the last thing a breeder should look at.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Correct. Most breeders would prefer that you take the best puppy for you no matter what the color. But if you had to have color X and there was no puppy in that litter that fit the personality and structure you needed, then they would ask you to wait for the next litter. And yes, show people are picky, but usually not about color. They want a color that isn't mismarked, and I know in Danes there are lots of rules about what color can be bred to what so a breeder might be limited with what fits into their program. But most people don't go to an Aussie breeder and say "I must have a blue merle female, show quality, with the correct temperament for performance". They drop the color requirement first to get the dog that best fits their other needs. Color should be the last thing a breeder should look at.


Yeah, that's why I was wondering - because of the restrictions that color puts on breeding Danes, color can't be the last thing a Dane breeder looks at. There are also many variations of acceptable colors - mantle, for instance, comes in a variety of forms, the most desirable being the full collared look that my puppy has, but there are other show acceptable variations such as a thin collar or interrupted collar.

Between the variance of color and the inability to breed certain colors together, I would think that Dane showers/breeders would sometimes *have* to compromise personality for color (within certain boundaries) if they're targeting specifically for their breeding program... 

Which is why I'm not planning on showing or breeding and I gave up looking for a black puppy after about two weeks of searching and realizing that reputable breeders rarely breed for black, and even if I did find one, I'd probably be making other compromises that I'd rather not make


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Between the variance of color and the inability to breed certain colors together, I would think that Dane showers/breeders would sometimes *have* to compromise personality for color (within certain boundaries) if they're targeting specifically for their breeding program...


And honestly this is a big problem I have with Dane breeding in general. They aren't the only breed to do it, but I think that throwing out dogs with beautiful conformation and correct temperaments just because some marking is slightly off is such a dumb idea. In general there are things some show breeders do (more in some breeds than others) that just make no sense to me. That's why I have a breed that only comes in one color and any markings are acceptable. haha


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

T


Hiraeth said:


> Out of curiosity, do reputable breeders (or a majority of them), not do presales based on gender/color? For instance, if I was an active show home and wanted a harlequin female from a particular bitch/sire combo, would the breeder refuse me a puppy until they determined that it was a fit personality-wise? It seems like that would take perhaps a very lengthy period of time to get a color/gender/personality combo that would fit someone who is very particular about what they want. And I have to imagine that a lot of people who show dogs are very particular about what they want.


It has taken me almost 10yrs to say yes to another young puppy. I'm not particular on the sex so that makes it easy. Longhaired whippets come in both long hair and "smoothies". I admit, I would prefer longhair. LHW's come in a variety of colors and I am not at all partial on the color. For us, it's all about the personality & temperment. We aren't a performance home so we need a "pet quality" longhaired whippet with hopefully a long coat.

When the litter is on the ground, we send a deposit. Should there be no pup for us (she cannot imagine that happening), we can get our deposit back or save it for a future litter.

I may have missed it: are you cropping the ears?


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

The breeder choosing the pup isn't any guarantee of correct temperament for the puppy buyer. If a breeder has a pup with a temperament flaw they still place that pup with some home; they certainly won't want to keep it. It's a rare breeder who will point out to a puppy buyer that the pup they are buying is nervous and overly shy or aggressive or unstable. 

Temperament testing at 4 weeks is pretty much worthless. The OP mentioned a girl pup who was biting all the others. That may just be precociousness. Most of the pups I've raised went through a period of learning bite inhibition at around 5 weeks. Lots of biting with needle teeth. Lots of running across the yard to save what seemed to be a puppy in distress, only to find nothing apparently wrong, or find someone had a good grip on an ear of tail. This phase generally didn't last more than a week or two, and was not indicative of adult temperament.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> And honestly this is a big problem I have with Dane breeding in general. They aren't the only breed to do it, but I think that throwing out dogs with beautiful conformation and correct temperaments just because some marking is slightly off is such a dumb idea. In general there are things some show breeders do (more in some breeds than others) that just make no sense to me. That's why I have a breed that only comes in one color and any markings are acceptable. haha


I agree with you there - the fact that mismarked mantles can literally just be missing a bit of white on their face, or a otherwise beautiful black Dane can have a spot of white on its chest or toe and be considered not eligible for show.... I think the people who are making those choices are harming the breed, in the long run. 



InkedMarie said:


> T
> 
> It has taken me almost 10yrs to say yes to another young puppy. I'm not particular on the sex so that makes it easy. Longhaired whippets come in both long hair and "smoothies". I admit, I would prefer longhair. LHW's come in a variety of colors and I am not at all partial on the color. For us, it's all about the personality & temperment. We aren't a performance home so we need a "pet quality" longhaired whippet with hopefully a long coat.
> 
> ...


I did reply earlier, but it probably got lost amongst all of the other posts! I do like the aesthetic of cropped ears, to be honest, but no, I won't be cropping my puppy's. I did talk to the breeder about ear cropping - two of her dogs were cropped, the other three were not - and she said that she could recommend me to her specialist who did her two females. However, she warned me that cropping is painful, posting the ears for lengthy periods of time is a pain in the butt, and that even then, not all cropped ears will stand fully erect. 

I know some people would probably have issues with purchasing from a breeder who crops ears, but meh, it's not on my list of concerns, especially when the breeder doesn't push her customers one way or the other and simply provides information. 



sandgrubber said:


> The breeder choosing the pup isn't any guarantee of correct temperament for the puppy buyer. If a breeder has a pup with a temperament flaw they still place that pup with some home; they certainly won't want to keep it. It's a rare breeder who will point out to a puppy buyer that the pup they are buying is nervous and overly shy or aggressive or unstable.
> 
> Temperament testing at 4 weeks is pretty much worthless. The OP mentioned a girl pup who was biting all the others. That may just be precociousness. Most of the pups I've raised went through a period of learning bite inhibition at around 5 weeks. Lots of biting with needle teeth. Lots of running across the yard to save what seemed to be a puppy in distress, only to find nothing apparently wrong, or find someone had a good grip on an ear of tail. This phase generally didn't last more than a week or two, and was not indicative of adult temperament.



I am very sure that girl pup was precocious and it's not at all a sign of imminent aggression  

I don't put a ton of stock in temperament testing at a young age. The Dane/Shepherd I just lost was a horror as a puppy, and there's no way he would have been placed with me if he had been evaluated at 8 weeks old. I worked with him, we grew and learned together, and he turned into an amazing dog. 

I think temperament testing can provide relevant information if a breeder is looking to place a dog with a family with kids, other pets, etc. It *may* even help if they're first time dog owners and looking for an "easier" puppy, meaning one that is slightly more docile and less likely to be a training nightmare. However, for me, it means almost nothing outside of giving me indicators as to what type of approach to initial training may work best. *I* am going to be the largest influence on what kind of adult dog my puppy grows into and I can work with just about anything


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Hiraeth said:


> Which is why I'm not planning on showing or breeding and I gave up looking for a black puppy after about two weeks of searching and realizing that reputable breeders rarely breed for black, and even if I did find one, I'd probably be making other compromises that I'd rather not make


My Dane is black and I have found/seen LOTS of reputable breeders that focus on black Danes. Interesting that you couldn't find any? Were you limiting your search to one region only?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Loki Love said:


> My Dane is black and I have found/seen LOTS of reputable breeders that focus on black Danes. Interesting that you couldn't find any? Were you limiting your search to one region only?


Yes, I was, and I think that was my problem. I was looking at about a 6-8 hour drive from me in any given direction. 

Harlequins and blues are *huge* around here. Not sure why, but I located harle/blue breeders 10 to 1 versus fawn/brindle/black. The two black breeders I found were not expecting litters until next spring. 

Call me impatient, but I didn't want to wait that long. I just lost Loki and I believe I will be losing my other dog this winter due to hip and mobility issues. He's almost 9, around 145 lbs, and just can't get around all that well. With that in mind, I didn't want to wait until next year, as I think I'm facing being without a dog pretty soon, and being with a dog would do really horrible things to my psychological state. 

The woman I purchased this pup from is breeding her now 20 month old harlequin female in 2017, and she believes the stud she wants is a solid black male. I imagine that at that point, I'll put myself on the wait list and see what kind of puppies she has. With luck she will have several healthy black pups and I'll be the happy owner of two Great Danes


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