# Adopt, Don't Shop!



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Is it just me or do the rescue fanatics get on anyone else's nerves? Don't get me wrong, I am all for rescue and adoption but I also see nothing wrong with getting a dog from a good breeder either. 

I'm so tired of people blurting stuff like "If you buy from a breeder (any breeder) you are killing a shelter dog" or "Breeders are only in it for the money no matter what"... I think if someone is looking for a dog they should always check local shelters or rescues to see if they have anything they're looking for but they shouldn't be berated, scolded or harassed for wanting a specific breed that would suit their lifestyle.

I made mention on a FB post that I'd like my next dog to be a Boston Terrier from a reputable breeder and someone replied with something along the lines of "Well, why don't you go to a breed specific rescue or shelter?". Well, because my local BT rescue has only like 2-5 dogs at a time often with behavioural or health issues and the ones that don't are adopted ASAP. Trust me, I'm ALWAYS browsing Pet Finder, my local shelter and Pug/Bulldog/Boston Terrier Rescues and dogs that would suit me are VERY few and far between. Not to mention that VERY few dogs of those breeds even pop up in my area. Actually, there aren't that many dogs for adoption here as compared to other places. For example, currently in my 5 local towns/cities there are roughly 30 dogs for adoption. One being a Pug mix, the rest are shepherd/lab mixes. I'm sure ONE of those dogs would suit my personal needs but they just aren't what I'm looking for. Why would I adopt a dog that doesn't suit me or isn't even what I'm looking for just to please someone else?

Any one else get this feeling sometimes?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Fanatics of any kind annoy me.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

I think that if someone comes on here asking about a specific breed, then suggesting a shelter dog is obnoxious and unhelpful. If they're just generally inquiring about dogs in general, then it's OK. (I realize that's not completely what you were talking about.)

But I agree with cookieface about fanatics. There are reasons to get a purebred dog. If someone wants one, and looks for a good breeder, then there's no reason to be upset about that.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

LOL me too, when I got Tyrael the breeder I chose manly because she was outcrossing to unrelated lines of the breed, so that she would not have a higher chance of problems. I have found this really rare in the breeding world and took me a time to find a group that does it. My next one will be from 2 unrelated lines from my male so if I chose to use them they will not be anywhere closely related.

Some people will tell me I killed a shelter dog by buying him- maybe I did or not as many don't get adopted because of the issues they have (I have rescued a lot of dogs so I know) I was on a wait list for more then two years (almost 3 for my girl) and I will strait up tell them I had this planed and everything as to what I wanted and that this is never going to be a throw away dog.
Most fanatics will not care, they only see their side as right----O well I am free to do as I wish and I want to know where my dogs come from.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I work in 2 rescues ~ but seriously, the "adopt don't shop" thing drives me nuts, and no - you're not killing any of the animals that came into the rescues I work with by getting your dog from a breeder. Because my rescues have cats  haha! But also, we're no-kill. 

I 'get it', but in the long run, buying your dog from a reputable breeder, BYB, Oops-litter, or even a mill - though I wouldn't encourage it..... (to me) isn't really that much different than going to the rescues and buying one of their dogs/cats that were dropped off because the breeder can't find a home (although reputable breeders will continue to "foster" their dogs - but that could just as easily be a dog in a foster home for a shelter), the BYB can't find homes, the oops-litter family can't find homes, and the mill has been uncovered and the dogs ceased. 
Literally the only difference between where you *buy* all these dogs, is the rescue. 

Again, I don't support puppy mills and I would never encourage someone to point-blank go out and buy a mill dog - BUT when a rescue does a mill sweep, the dogs in the rescue, are now the same dogs that were at the mill. Suddenly, purchasing them becomes OK - but only because the rescue will help other animals too. 

Anyway... I feel like I'm just blabbing and not able to get my point across, but basically it's that I think the adopt don't shop thing is stupid too.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cookieface said:


> Fanatics of any kind annoy me.


Preach it.

And in addition to being annoying, it's faulty logic and passing the buck from people who surrender. 

Also, unless a shelter is giving dogs away for free, you are in fact "shopping" for your dog there, too.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Again, I don't support puppy mills and I would never encourage someone to point-blank go out and buy a mill dog - BUT when a rescue does a mill sweep, the dogs in the rescue, are now the same dogs that were at the mill. Suddenly, purchasing them becomes OK - but only because the rescue will help other animals too.


Yes they're the same animals but the money and support are going to different people. Supporting a rescue and supporting a mill are very different. Is this really something that some people don't understand?

Honestly, there ARE animals who will die if they don't get a home, and if I can give them a home and save their life instead of giving that space to a custom-ordered animal because I wanted something specialer, I'm going to feel bad. And nothing anyone can say will make me not feel bad about that. it may not be my fault they're in danger but if I am in the position to save them and choose not to, that IS my fault. So yeah.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I think it's the rebel in me but makes me want to buy a purebred from a breeder even more,despite being more of a rescue person myself.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I like this article: http://dogknobit.com/2012/03/22/guilt-its-not-just-for-jews-and-catholics-anymore/

And personally, I think that rescuing dogs is great. If someone posts here and asks what kind of dog they should get, and their requirements are fairly general ("I want a friendly dog that can jog with me," for example), I will suggest they look at shelters and rescues first. But not everyone wants to rescue, and not everyone has to. I wanted something very specific when I got each of my dogs, so I did a ton of research and chose specific breeds from good breeders, and my dogs ended up being (almost) exactly what I wanted. It's unlikely I could have found those traits in a rescue (especially around here, where rescue dogs under 20lbs are very rare). And I refuse to feel guilty for not "adopting" a dog. The people who should feel guilty are the heartless jerks who dumped their dogs at the shelter in the first place. Good breeders and their buyers are not contributing to that.

(There were a few different breeds I was considering when I got Crystal, so I possibly could have found a suitable rescue. With Casper, however, I wanted an AKK and nothing else. If I hadn't been able to get one, I wouldn't have gotten a second dog at all, so _definitely_ zero shelter dogs lost out on a home because of my "shopping.")


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Yes they're the same animals but the money and support are going to different people. Supporting a rescue and supporting a mill are very different. Is this really something that some people don't understand?


The mill is supported either way.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> The people who should feel guilty are the heartless jerks who dumped their dogs at the shelter in the first place.


I wish I could dismiss everyone who has taken a pet to a shelter as a heartless jerk or an irresponsible nitwit. But of the people I know who have taken their pets to shelters. . .they mostly aren't. It may be regional---around here, the heartless jerks just kill unwanted animals themselves, or have their uncle do it or something. For someone to take a pet to the shelter (which is not conveniently located), pay a surrender fee, fill out paperwork, they have to really care. 

Mostly they're just out of options. Maybe the landlord said the dog had to go by Monday or he'd evict them. Maybe they lost their job and apartment and are crashing on someone's couch. Sure, there are probably some irresponsible decisions in their lives but it's not 100% due to irresponsibility. Shug's owner was going to have to take her to a shelter if my mom didn't adopt her, and that girl REALLY loved that dog. Nothing heartless about her; she cried her eyes out just thinking about it. I guess I feel like shelters need to be there for people who legitimately can't care for their pets anymore and for that to work, someone has to adopt those pets :/.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Is it just me or do the rescue fanatics get on anyone else's nerves? Don't get me wrong, I am all for rescue and adoption but I also see nothing wrong with getting a dog from a good breeder either.
> 
> I'm so tired of people blurting stuff like "If you buy from a breeder (any breeder) you are killing a shelter dog" or "Breeders are only in it for the money no matter what"... I think if someone is looking for a dog they should always check local shelters or rescues to see if they have anything they're looking for but they shouldn't be berated, scolded or harassed for wanting a specific breed that would suit their lifestyle.
> 
> ...


The Rescue crowd gets more and more fanatical every day...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Yes they're the same animals but the money and support are going to different people. Supporting a rescue and supporting a mill are very different. Is this really something that some people don't understand?
> 
> .


You are still supporting the mill......



sassafras said:


> Preach it.
> 
> And in addition to being annoying, it's faulty logic and passing the buck from people who surrender.
> 
> Also, unless a shelter is giving dogs away for free, you are in fact "shopping" for your dog there, too.


This! Exactly.....

Does not matter who you pay.... IF you exchange money for a dog, you bought it.....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I really don't see how getting a rescue or shelter dog is supporting puppy mills. Especially because my dog was a stray and not really of the puppy mill type breeds but ok whatever.

The 'adopt don't shop' thing kind of annoys me but vehement anti-rescue sentiment and mistruths about rescue dogs annoys me much much more. 

Depending on your area you can find a LOT of different kinds of dogs in shelters and rescues. You can also find dogs with 0 issues... I have a shelter dog that literally has no behavior issues. I mean other than being a wild young male dog. He's perfect with people, perfect with dogs, active, loves to play, turns off nicely, sleeps nicely through the night. I mean really... you can't find a better dog and I'm not just saying that because I am totally biased. And I was even looking for something pretty darn specific- competition level agility. So far he's phenomenal. I mean absolutely amazing sport dog. He's not a fluke, I meet lots of great second hand dogs and people who do great things with second hand dogs.

Personally, I am not going to go to a rescue but will go to a shelter like I did with Hank. In the area I live in dogs DO get put to sleep often. Hank was in danger when I got him. If other people take issue with me calling him a rescue then.. I dunno. Their problem I guess. 

Does that mean I will never get a breeder dog? Nope. But I wish people would give rescues/shelters more of a thought as I find it isn't even an option with a lot of 'dog folk'. You should have heard some of the comments I've heard when people heard I wanted a rescue for agility.... For some reason it's acceptable as your first agility dog but not if you want to be 'serious'.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I've gotten a lot of grief for going through a breeder instead of adopting. Especially since we currently train at the Humane Society. It makes me really uncomfortable when people snap at me that they hope I'm happy murdering dogs since that's basically what I did by going to a breeder instead of rescuing a dog from a shelter. I have pretty severe anxiety issues, and this kind of attitude makes me want to scream.

However, it's _because_ of my anxiety issues that I go through reputable, well-researched breeders in the first place. As rational or irrational as it might be, knowing a dog's pedigree, parents, health testing, what the breeder was aiming for with the breeding, seeing consistent healthy pups from the breeder... those are all things that help put my mind at ease and help me worry less about all the potential health or behavioral issues. The idea of adopting from the shelter with no idea of a dog's background makes me break out into a cold sweat. I feel much more in control with a breeder, so that's where we go.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Don't we blame shelters for not advertising themselves? "If they'd just advertise more, they wouldn't have to kill so many animals! It's their own fault if nobody gets pets from them!". So I guess I don't see why that advertising should annoy so many people.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Don't we blame shelters for not advertising themselves? "If they'd just advertise more, they wouldn't have to kill so many animals! It's their own fault if nobody gets pets from them!". So I guess I don't see why that advertising should annoy so many people.


It is not the advertising... It is the fanatical messages and attempts to guilt people into going the shelter route rather than purchasing a dog from a breeder.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So what's the difference between advertising and fanatical messages and guilt-trips for not buying their product? 

If breeder/purebred enthusiast types didn't pull the old "filthy worthless shelter trash" card so often I might feel worse for them.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is not the advertising... It is the fanatical messages and attempts to guilt people into going the shelter route rather than purchasing a dog from a breeder.


This X10, I am all to fostering and adopting but I should not have someone trying to guilt me into doing something. I see it a lot and get it a lot when they find that I got mine from a breeder. I have 5 pets and 3 are rescues so I really hate hearing it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> So what's the difference between advertising and fanatical messages and guilt-trips for not buying their product?
> 
> If breeder/purebred enthusiast types didn't pull the old "filthy worthless shelter trash" card so often I might feel worse for them.


Who's doing that? I certainly don't see that here at DF (or among the many good breeders I know, for that matter). Is this another thing that happens in your neighborhood?


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

A fanatic in anything will take their argument to the highest degree and they are always right.

People's needs are different and if you want a purebred for whatever reason - so be it; if you just want a dog then adopt. Zoey is our 2nd shelter/rescue dog and both have been great dogs - for us. Is Zoey everything I wanted in a dog - NO, but there is no guarantee that another dog - rescued or purebred from a breeder would be 100% of what I wanted either. As far as getting dogs from rescues/shelters, I don't see how that supports BYB or anything relating to bad breeders unless the dogs are bought from these BYB for the sole purpose of being "saved". 

Around here there are a lot of imported rescue dogs from Puerto Rico, India and from the south so apparently we must have run out of local dogs. But rescues can be/are a big business and there's no denying that some are strictly run for a profit. I paid $150 for Zoey, not a lot but that didn't include anything. I have seen some rescues by me that charge $350 and that includes spay/neuter and to me that's a bargain ... not sure how much a good breeder sells their dogs for but I have seen some pet shop dogs going for $2500; my sister paid $1800 for her pet shop Wheaten Terrier.

There are idiots in all walks of life, the dog world is no exception.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> So what's the difference between advertising and fanatical messages and guilt-trips for not buying their product?
> 
> If breeder/purebred enthusiast types didn't pull the old "filthy worthless shelter trash" card so often I might feel worse for them.


You must be the only one ever seeing this...... I am not saying it NEVER happens. But it is extremely rare.......

Conversely..... Fanatical guilt trip tactics are common and becoming more so all the time from shelters and rescues....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Has Hank been called worthless to my face? No.

When I was looking at dogs was I highly discouraged that shelter/rescue dogs were a poor choice for someone like me? Yes.

Was I told all shelter dogs had issues? Yes.

It happens. A lot.

A lot of what I think people mis-interpret as 'fanatical' is just people trying to let others know there are GOOD dogs in the shelters. Some people don't even consider it or know that you can get a nice dog from a shelter. These dogs do need advertised by their owners and people because frankly, around here the adoption rate is not great. The shelter Hank is from has a goal to hit 70% adoptions in 2016. The other shelter I looked at adopts out a shopping 27% of intakes. Yeah. It IS bad in some parts of the country.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> Who's doing that? I certainly don't see that here at DF (or among the many good breeders I know, for that matter). Is this another thing that happens in your neighborhood?


Right now I'm thinking of that rant by the Sheltie breeder someone posted here recently, but the attitude isn't rare. I guess I see about equal bad behavior on both sides (not locally; there are very few rescues here. It's very pro-producer around here. But what I can find on the internet).


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Fanatics of any kind annoy me.


 thats what I was going to say, so I'll just quote you instead. My wife and I do a lot of rescue work (thats how we ended up with 40ish pets). Neither of us begrudge anyone buying from a breeder. I encourage rescue OR responsible purchasing through reputable breeders. I do take the time to warn people against buying from mill style breeders.

Both Otis and Malcom were purchased, Peach is a rescue. and yet despite what the guilt trip laying fanatics scream I sleep well at night knowing through training I keep dogs from needing rescue and help keep newly rescued dogs in their new found homes. Simple fact the number one reason dogs wind up in shelters is behavior problems, most of which can be addressed through simple training. not all are easy fixes but I do my part and feel no guilt over buying what I wish to have.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> Has Hank been called worthless to my face? No.
> 
> When I was looking at dogs was I highly discouraged that shelter/rescue dogs were a poor choice for someone like me? Yes.
> 
> ...


In most cases it is true that not all the dogs have issues. but I will have to say that a lot of them do and is part of the reason they are at the shelter. Many of these could have been prevented with training of the new owners and in that respect the breeder are somewhat a fault. The shelters and rescues should always be upfront about the dogs they place and some have not been. Here we have shelters and rescues that charge a lot depending on the dog breed--they are for a profit and not for the dogs.
Animal control here bases prices on age only and you can get a dog for $70


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm sure in some areas, it's easier to find a rescue that suits your needs, and I think it's great when people look there first.

Around here, though... well, we have one humane society: http://www.peihumanesociety.com/adopt/dogs/

(No, you're not reading that wrong -- they have zero dogs to adopt right now. When they have dogs, it's usually fewer than 10 and all medium to large.)

And one small dog rescue covering a few provinces, with mostly shih-tzu/poodle/chihuahua/yorkie-type mixes... fine breeds, but not for me. http://www.asdrescue.com/

There are some breed rescues (beagles, Boston terriers, whippets, boxers, doxies), but not for any breeds that would suit me. 

As this shows, availability is going to vary by location... plus people are going to want specific sizes or mixes, so I think it's silly for anyone to spout blanket "adopt, don't shop" advice (or say that rescues are all terrible and you should only go with breeders, either). Educate people about their choices, and then step back and let them make them.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I worked in a shelter for 2 years and have to disagree that most shelter dogs have serious issues. Of course they have some minor issues- they're dogs. I've yet to have a dog from anywhere that didn't have something we needed to work through. Hank has been BY FAR the easiest.

A lot of dogs chew something, are wild, pull on a leash, etc. But they're often young dogs and OF COURSE they are wild.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjobdpZuLcw
The song reminds me of when I went pick up my Kinsiva, Great Dane rescue. I am sure this is what he was saying as he waited to see if someone would rescue him. 
* this thread reminds me of him


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Has Hank been called worthless to my face? No.
> 
> When I was looking at dogs was I highly discouraged that shelter/rescue dogs were a poor choice for someone like me? Yes.
> 
> ...


I could see folks saying that to you. Prior to getting Hank you seemed to have some very specific wants in a dog. 

In fact, based on comments I have seen from you, in general terms, I would have tried to steer you away from a shelter dog. Heck maybe I did.... That would be in the best interest of all. You getting what you want and a dog fitting into your wants and goals. 

Now with Hank Specifically, Once he was described to me, I feel he will likely fit in with what you want in a dog. Nice fit most likely. 

I could also see myself seeing that with Sassafras.... 


Someone like Willowy.... Who clearly is happy purely with providing a home for a dog that needs one.... I do not see folks saying anything to her...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Really. You don't think I hear about how Toby's mama's owner should have thrown the whole litter into the stock tank and shot her once they saw "she had been a hussy" and dared to have a litter of useless mutt puppies? How Penny's owner "musta missed" when trying to shoot them, too bad he couldn't handle a gun properly? All the freakin time. And the kennel club guy who ran the obedience class I took Penny to told me that someday I might get a real dog.

I'm perfectly happy with any dog who needs a home but other people still want to talk about how useless mutts are.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I wish I could dismiss everyone who has taken a pet to a shelter as a heartless jerk or an irresponsible nitwit. But of the people I know who have taken their pets to shelters. . .they mostly aren't. It may be regional---around here, the heartless jerks just kill unwanted animals themselves, or have their uncle do it or something. For someone to take a pet to the shelter (which is not conveniently located), pay a surrender fee, fill out paperwork, they have to really care.
> 
> Mostly they're just out of options. Maybe the landlord said the dog had to go by Monday or he'd evict them. Maybe they lost their job and apartment and are crashing on someone's couch. Sure, there are probably some irresponsible decisions in their lives but it's not 100% due to irresponsibility. Shug's owner was going to have to take her to a shelter if my mom didn't adopt her, and that girl REALLY loved that dog. Nothing heartless about her; she cried her eyes out just thinking about it. I guess I feel like shelters need to be there for people who legitimately can't care for their pets anymore and for that to work, someone has to adopt those pets :/.


Here it used to be you could walk up and down the cages and the reasons for surrender were all things like "moving," "divorce," "needs training," "too much energy," etc. These days a lot of dogs get imported up here from southern shelters so there isn't as much information about them but yea... not so much heartbroken as convenience-broken in a lot of cases.



Laurelin said:


> I really don't see how getting a rescue or shelter dog is supporting puppy mills.


It doesn't necessarily, unless that shelter purchases ("saves") dogs from mills. My point is that I don't see how it's different for an individual person to do so vs a shelter - either way, the miller will have a dog purchased from them.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I'll likely always get my dogs from rescues and I hate hearing "adopted, don't shop!" The biggest issue my rescue dog had was being mouthy which is easy to fix. 

Out of the handful of dogs I've fostered none have had major behavior issues, some were fearful and needed confidence boosting, one had some guarding issues and needed a dog savvy home (he's doing great in his new home btw), some are near perfect and just needed someone to want them. Of course I do select dogs as fosters usually knowing a bit about them already and haven't ever gotten any major surprises once they are home with me. There certainly are dogs in rescue with issues, some just need time and training with a knowledgable owner, a few have major issues and in the case of the group I used to volunteer with will spend the rest of their lives in the shelter.

All that said I have zero issues with someone going to a responsible breeder for their dog. Mostly I just want people to know what they are getting into with getting a dog and commit to taking care of that dog for the rest of its life as best they can.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> The 'adopt don't shop' thing kind of annoys me but vehement anti-rescue sentiment and mistruths about rescue dogs annoys me much much more.


Same. 

The consequences are a lot worse when people believe the latter, too.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I wish I kept track of the number of people who have been totally shocked that we adopted Snowball from a shelter. Because, surprise! he doesn't have any serious issues. I especially love the reactions of people who complement me on his temperament and then ask where I got him - they're always shocked that he came from a shelter.



sassafras said:


> Here it used to be you could walk up and down the cages and the reasons for surrender were all things like "moving," "divorce," "needs training," "too much energy," etc. These days a lot of dogs get imported up here from southern shelters so there isn't as much information about them but yea... not so much heartbroken as convenience-broken in a lot of cases.


We get a lot of "no time for animal", especially for older-but-not-quite-geriatric dogs. When it's a puppy or young dog, I feel less bad about it, but dogs that are 6-10 years old and being dropped off at a shelter because the family no longer has time for them breaks my heart.

Although not as much as the very geriatric, nearly-blind, hips-so-bad-they-can barely-walk dogs who come in matted and dirty and have obviously lived their entire lives outside and get turned in as strays. Even when they have ID, they never get picked up, and I have a theory that some farmers drive their old, used-up farm dogs away from the farm and just leave them for the coyotes.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I may some day get another dog from my breeder...but most likely, next dog and next dog after that will be a rescue. If I am lucky, I will be able to rescue a mill "throw away". Why? because that dog deserves a life with a soft bed, good food and a loving hand. I have all three. I have had purebreds from a good breeder, purebreds from rescue, mixed breeds from the shelter and county pound and oops litter puppies. Each and every dog was awesome, in his or her way. I have no argument with purebreds from responsible breeders if that is what suits a person. I have two myself.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I could see folks saying that to you. Prior to getting Hank you seemed to have some very specific wants in a dog.
> 
> In fact, based on comments I have seen from you, in general terms, I would have tried to steer you away from a shelter dog. Heck maybe I did.... That would be in the best interest of all. You getting what you want and a dog fitting into your wants and goals.
> 
> ...


I DO have very specific wants in a dog. I don't think it was a fluke Hank fits me so well. I really believe in areas like mine where there's a lot of unwanted animals, most dog savvy people could find something that fit them well at a shelter or rescue.

Part of the reason Hank is from a shelter and not a rescue was because I trusted myself to evaluate him more than I trusted the rescue to evaluate him. He is pretty much exactly what I thought he'd be. 

And now that I have him, agility folk are clamoring all over him. They love him. lol My trainer was very pro rescue because she has a rescue agility dog that is incredible. In fact when I think about the agility crowd there's a ton of really nice rescues/second hand dogs running around here. These are stable, fun, highly trainable dogs with good temperaments that compete and do well... But I got a lot of comments at trials from other competitors who recoiled when I said 'I really think my next dog is going to be a rescue'. I do kind of feel like in the dog sports arena at least they are kind of looked down upon. Maybe not intentionally but they are not seen as a viable option for people who are 'serious'.

I dunno. I love my purebreds and it is very likely (I'd say darn near 100% probable) I will get a breeder puppy either for next dog or the dog after that. I have no problems with them. I can pretty much guarantee I will also be looking at shelters for dogs too in the future. I just like pointing out you can get GREAT dogs in shelters and rescues too and that they are often overlooked, especially by 'dog people'. And in fact I think a lot of these dogs are in shelters for reasons that would make them desirable sports dogs- too much energy and drive.

I just want people to know they're not all broken and maybe get more people to consider looking there first. I'm not saying to get a dog that doesn't fit you at all but just maybe take a look and see what's available where you live and see what the situation is in your area. I was shocked at how high the euth rates were here.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I wish I kept track of the number of people who have been totally shocked that we adopted Snowball from a shelter. Because, surprise! he doesn't have any serious issues. I especially love the reactions of people who complement me on his temperament and then ask where I got him - they're always shocked that he came from a shelter.


I get this ALL the time. Both from him being such a happy stable dog who just goes with the flow and from how obviously strong our bond is. People are both shocked that he came from a shelter and that he was 2 years old when I got him.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dagwall said:


> I get this ALL the time. Both from him being such a happy stable dog who just goes with the flow and from how obviously strong our bond is. People are both shocked that he came from a shelter and that he was 2 years old when I got him.


Haha I had that happen today with a lady at the pet store. She was impressed how attentive Hank is and how friendly especially after I told her I got him less than three months ago from the city impound.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I have absolutely nothing against shelter dogs. All of my dogs except Squash have been second hand dogs either directly or indirectly through rescue. I stalk local husky rescue pages as avidly as I stalk mushing kennel's pages. 

My point was more, I don't see the difference between an individual or a rescue "rescuing" a dog from a mill. Either way, the dog is out of a bad situation and in a home, either way the miller gets money. It just cuts out the middle man. In fact, at work I often give our shelter exam discount to people who find kittens in the woodpile, stray dogs etc because they really ARE shelter pets - they just never made it to the shelter.


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## Aleksandra (Oct 29, 2014)

I have always had purebred dogs ,and have never had any flack for not adopting. I love the Spitz breeds and Rough Collies and have had two that were abused ,turned out beautiful dogs .Here ,we don't have that many homeless dogs ,strict council rules and heavy fines for wandering dogs may be part of it.I would never feel guilty for buying my dogs !


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Someone mentioned getting a dog from a shelter supports puppy mills? i think that was what was said, can someone explain that to me?


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Someone mentioned getting a dog from a shelter supports puppy mills? i think that was what was said, can someone explain that to me?


I believe their comment was about the rescues who buy up mill dogs at auctions which still puts money in the millers pockets. As far as I know that isn't a common practice in my area but I know it happens across the country in a number of areas.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

dagwall said:


> I believe their comment was about the rescues who buy up mill dogs at auctions which still puts money in the millers pockets. As far as I know that isn't a common practice in my area but I know it happens across the country in a number of areas.


Yeah like this 1 penny dog....
http://milldogrescue.org/a-tribute-to-copper/


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Someone mentioned getting a dog from a shelter supports puppy mills? i think that was what was said, can someone explain that to me?


Yes that's what is confusing me.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Someone mentioned getting a dog from a shelter supports puppy mills? i think that was what was said, can someone explain that to me?


Nobody said that.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm glad most people here are logical and smart about this situation. Where I am, there aren't even that many dogs in shelters/rescues. A lot of people are very pro-rescue so most healthy/stable dogs are adopted quickly. But I don't think I (or anyone else) should be shamed because we don't want every lab/shepherd/collie mix that's available here.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Nobody said that.


some one did in the earlier comments. because I believe some rescues buy all the pups a mill is producing to "rescue" them, which would in fact be the rescue supporting the mill by giving them money. around here shelter animals are either surrenders or strays or seized not purchased so rescuing around here does not support mills in any way.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

sharpei said:


> some one did in the earlier comments. because I believe some rescues buy all the pups a mill is producing to "rescue" them, which would in fact be the rescue supporting the mill by giving them money. around here shelter animals are either surrenders or strays or seized not purchased so rescuing around here does not support mills in any way.


Jesus, people. READ. Literally nobody said "getting a dog from a shelter supports puppy mills." 

This exchange happened:



BostonBullMama said:


> I 'get it', but in the long run, buying your dog from a reputable breeder, BYB, Oops-litter, or even a mill - though I wouldn't encourage it..... (to me) isn't really that much different than going to the rescues and buying one of their dogs/cats that were dropped off because the breeder can't find a home (although reputable breeders will continue to "foster" their dogs - but that could just as easily be a dog in a foster home for a shelter), the BYB can't find homes, the oops-litter family can't find homes, and the mill has been uncovered and the dogs ceased.
> Literally the only difference between where you *buy* all these dogs, is the rescue.
> 
> Again, I don't support puppy mills and I would never encourage someone to point-blank go out and buy a mill dog - BUT when a rescue does a mill sweep, the dogs in the rescue, are now the same dogs that were at the mill. Suddenly, purchasing them becomes OK - but only because the rescue will help other animals too.





Willowy said:


> Yes they're the same animals but the money and support are going to different people. Supporting a rescue and supporting a mill are very different. Is this really something that some people don't understand?





sassafras said:


> The mill is supported either way.





JohnnyBandit said:


> You are still supporting the mill......


And then somehow got warped into this:



> I really don't see how getting a rescue or shelter dog is supporting puppy mills.


Which has now been parroted several times as if anyone actually said it.

No one said getting a rescue/shelter dog is supporting puppy mills. No. One. 

ONCE AGAIN, the point that was made was THIS: For shelters who do mill sweeps (which is NOT ALL SHELTERS)... Whether a shelter does a mill sweep and then I get one of those dogs from the shelter, or I go directly to a mill and purchase a dog to "rescue" it, the dog is out of a bad situation and the miller has been supported financially. So why is the former acceptable and the latter unacceptable?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Well, Lincoln is from a breeder so I suppose they see me as part of the problem lol. I had a few friends unfriend me on fb because I decided to go the breeder route.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Really. You don't think I hear about how Toby's mama's owner should have thrown the whole litter into the stock tank and shot her once they saw "she had been a hussy" and dared to have a litter of useless mutt puppies? How Penny's owner "musta missed" when trying to shoot them, too bad he couldn't handle a gun properly? All the freakin time. And the kennel club guy who ran the obedience class I took Penny to told me that someday I might get a real dog.
> 
> I'm perfectly happy with any dog who needs a home but other people still want to talk about how useless mutts are.


This must just be your area because I hear none of that here ... lol most of the breeders here are also involved with rescue on one level or another, some donate money, their time, etc. Others pull dogs and short term foster them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh I don't mean breeders have said that, just random yahoos. Though probably most of them have let them dogs have litters so maybe you could call them breeders. It just seems like every guy who feels like saying something when he sees my dogs has to tell me how he'd kill them if they were his :/. Just because they aren't purebred.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Here it used to be you could walk up and down the cages and the reasons for surrender were all things like "moving," "divorce," "needs training," "too much energy," etc. These days a lot of dogs get imported up here from southern shelters so there isn't as much information about them but yea... not so much heartbroken as convenience-broken in a lot of cases.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't necessarily, unless that shelter purchases ("saves") dogs from mills. My point is that I don't see how it's different for an individual person to do so vs a shelter - either way, the miller will have a dog purchased from them.


I know of people who would give up Lincoln for what he is doing right now (chewing and getting into everything, always having to watch him etc ...) and its a shame because he is REALLY not that bad, its just normal puppy stuff.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Fanatics on both ends annoy me.

I work at a shelter and have no qualms suggesting a good breeder to anyone who is looking for something that we don't have/are unlikely to have within their timeline, whatever that may be.

I just don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive... Working at a shelter and being fine with responsible breeders is the way that most (all?) of my coworkers are. Heck, an HSUS employee that we work with has dogs from a responsible breeder, gasp! And honestly, the way most shelter/rescue workers in my area are. There's going to be extremes on both ends but I really don't think it's as common as some of these comments are making it out to be.

Also, not all or ever most shelter dogs have "issues." I guess maybe if you consider "issues" to be anything outside of a debarked crate trained highly stranger friendly house trained for 12 hour periods low energy dog friendly dog then maybe? But personality traits outside of that doesn't mean ISSUES. Just means that some dogs have traits that swing outside of that middle 50%.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I myself have never met any fanatic breeders that are against rescue and adoption, but I have met fanatics on the rescue side, both on facebook and in my area.


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## CrystalGSD (Jun 27, 2014)

In my experience, pro-rescue, anti-breeder fanatics are far more common than anti-rescue fanatics. A lot of the anti-breeder fanatics are very misinformed on a lot of topics, and I kind of wish they wouldn't turn a blind-eye whenever information is presented to them, like, responsible breeders do not cause shelter dogs to die, and intact dogs are not uncontrollable, aggressive litter spewing freaks. I wish more rescue people were of the middle ground. I volunteer with a rescue and I hear a lot of "ew that person has an intact dog what a terrible person!11!1!!!1!" and I get kind of sick of it.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Just go onto any kind of rescue facebook type of situation and you will find all the anti-breeder crazies. I also was almost kicked out of volunteering with a rescue because I bought a purebred. Around here, breeders are bad bad bad if you are involved in rescue. 

I don't like extremest anything. I've had rescues who were good dogs, though none of them came without issues. I just really prefer to get puppies. Not that adults all have issues but I've seen enough separation anxiety cases to be a little afraid of getting an adult without a known background. I got a purebred because I wanted something so specific I was not finding it in a shelter. Although my criteria is pretty specific now (just not as specific), I'm actually hoping to find what I want in a shelter first this time around. If I can't find it after a few months, I'm probably just gonna go with a breeder again. 

What drives me crazy is those people that don't really know what they want then end up going to a pet store or some really shady breeder because they just happened to see something that was cute. They had no reason to do that because they would have been just as happy with a shelter dog that was cute. I get people telling me all the time that they can't believe how much it cost to get a rescue puppy when they can get a "fresh puppy" from a breeder for just a little bit more. Uhm.. what? If they are coming from some shady-side breeder you really are not better off...


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Jesus, people. READ. Literally nobody said "getting a dog from a shelter supports puppy mills."


 ok you said it "the mill is supported either way" so please tell me how that isn't saying that rescuing a mill puppy form a rescue isn't supporting the mills when that is quite clearly what you are saying.? I'm confused.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

sharpei said:


> ok you said it "the mill is supported either way" so please tell me how that isn't saying that rescuing a mill puppy form a rescue isn't supporting the mills when that is quite clearly what you are saying.? I'm confused.


Is this... real life? 

Once again, once again...



sassafras said:


> ONCE AGAIN, the point that was made was THIS: For shelters who do mill sweeps (which is NOT ALL SHELTERS)... Whether a shelter does a mill sweep and then I get one of those dogs from the shelter, or I go directly to a mill and purchase a dog to "rescue" it, the dog is out of a bad situation and the miller has been supported financially. So why is the former acceptable and the latter unacceptable?


This is no way the same as saying "getting *A* dog from *A* shelter supports puppy mill*S*."


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

What's tragically hilarious is what we went through before Louie. We decided to adopt. Get a yearling dog so we won't deal with a lot of baggage and dodge the puppy stage. Our needs was a lower energy small dog who isn't overly anxious or fearful. Pom or other spitz preferred, but open to other small breeds.

Sounds like a perfect wishlist for a shelter dog, right? We have high adoption rates in our local shelters on literally everything BUT pit bulls.

So we visit a nearby shelter. Adopt instead of shopping for a breeder, right? Our wishlist isn't that demanding... So we find a gorgeous eskie/corgi dumped for potty training. She clearly didn't like being touched suddenly or roughly based on her assessment sheet. Overall, calm, cool, friendly dog when we saw her. We all can read body language and respect a dog's wishes, so no problem there.

We were denied even introducing her to Clyde because he was a 110 lb dog who didn't like dogs over 50 lbs. Didn't matter if he previously lived with a geriatric 6-7 lb chihuahua. Didn't matter if he plays nicely with small dogs.

They told us to get a pit bull.

So we went to a breeder and got Louie. One of the best dogs we have ever owned. And yes, Clyde is just fine with him.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Is this... real life?


As the years go by, I become more and more convinced that everyone just skims other people's posts instead of actually reading them.

I have the same question as you, though. Scenario:

A mill mass-auctions their unproductive breeders/older/"unnecessary" dogs.
A rescue or shelter purchases those dogs for hundreds or thousands of dollars.
You give the shelter or rescue money for one of those dogs.
How is that different from you going to the mill and buying a dog there? Either way, the mill is getting their money.

It's tough, though, as we all discussed on the thread about the cavaliers being bought in that way. By purchasing those dogs, the rescue is financially supporting a mill, but if they don't purchase those dogs, those dogs may wind up dead or in another bad situation, and no one wants to see 40+ dogs killed. It's hard to know what to do.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> As the years go by, I become more and more convinced that everyone just skims other people's posts instead of actually reading them.
> 
> I have the same question as you, though. Scenario:
> 
> ...


In a scenario like that? Honestly, you're just making life easier for the mills. Not only have they gotten rid of dogs they didn't want and been paid, they now have lots of space for new dogs to start churning out puppies. How is that _not_ a win for the mills? And by adopting one of these dogs, the cycle just continues.

What people seem to be missing is that this is a very specific scenario. If I adopt from my local humane society who _doesn't_ buy/rescue mill dogs, then I'm not supporting the mills...


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Is this... real life?
> 
> Once again, once again...
> 
> ...


 ok a technicality, you were saying that adopting from a shelter COULD be supporting a mill. depending on the shelter got it.

I would find it odd for a rescue to PAY a mill for anything, even in the guise of saving the dogs because that would indeed be supporting the mill. around here dogs get seized from situations like that, and the mill gets nothing from the adoptions. here in maine you cannot sell more than 2 dogs/pups a year without a breeding license. Not saying people all obey that but it has definitely slowed down the mil breeders in the area.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That exchange honestly left me really confused at what people were trying to say because the mill thing seemed rather irrelevant. 

It is rare that shelters buy mill dogs. I'm not even sure city intake shelters can. I'd always check out a rescue before getting a dog from them. Some are a bit shady.

Yes I know the cav and papillon thing happened recently but most shelter and rescue dogs aren't coming from situations like this.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I know of a rescue that regularly hits the mill auctions. But I think they mostly get the dogs nobody else bids on, because they always have the saddest assortment of toothless, worn-out old Maltese (and other breeds but it seems like mainly Maltese) . The transformation in those dogs once they get a bit of care is amazing. I know of someone else who goes to a puppy farm and takes the dogs the miller is going to kill. She had to beg and beg before he'd let her do that, so it's not really doing him a favor. He doesn't care if he kills them or she takes them---he thinks he's doing HER a favor. It's a tough situation and I don't really know the right answer.



> around here dogs get seized from situations like that, and the mill gets nothing from the adoptions.


Puppy mills aren't even sort of illegal. Only if they have bad conditions. You'd be surprised how much support from the government they get :/. They get all the farm subsidies any livestock farmer would.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

that is indeed too close to true, while 33 states have laws regarding breeding facilities and I know up here in Maine yearly surprise inspections are mandatory as well as surprise inspections after registered complaints. the laws up here in Maine have gotten tougher to reduce puppy mill style breeding. breeding/selling without a license is illegle here in maine. so hidden/unregistered puppy mills are illegal here. unfortunately regulation isnt tough enough on this sort of thing.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Honestly? I think those breeding licenses are basically a crock. A big mill breeder is going to have no trouble affording them and they know how to work around inspections (if the inspections are even done - inspectors are few and far between and way over worked, if I recall). The only folks breeding licenses tend to hurt are smaller reputable breeders.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Effisia said:


> Honestly? I think those breeding licenses are basically a crock. A big mill breeder is going to have no trouble affording them and they know how to work around inspections (if the inspections are even done - inspectors are few and far between and way over worked, if I recall). The only folks breeding licenses tend to hurt are smaller reputable breeders.


So much this. Breeding regulations are getting so strict that good breeders with 5 dogs who occasionally fly a puppy to a great home are being discouraged from breeding. The mills are big enough and have enough money that they just find a way through the regulations, while good breeders are forced to re-think whether they want to breed at all.

I'm not necessarily against regulation to combat puppy mills, but the regulations I've seen over the past couple years are completely ineffective and hurting people who are trying to breed ethically.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Perhaps I should have chosen a different thread title... This discussion is interesting but wasn't my intention. lmao


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I have run into the anti-breeder sentiment WAY, WAY more than the anti-rescue sentiment, especially back home in OH. And with one exception, 5 years ago, I've not run into anyone who legit thinks all rescue dogs have issues. My former agility facility was probably 75% rescued dogs, purebreds and mixes. Laurelin would have gotten no flack at all for getting Hank. On the contrary! They were very supportive of rescue, and I never heard a bad word against breeders there either.

'Adopt, Don't Shop' makes me roll my eyes, and I'm supportive of shelters or rescue. I don't like guilt or villainizing to promote a cause, and I feel that's the angle of it. I'd much rather see 'Rescue Mom' or 'I <3 My Rescue Dog' or 'Shelter Dogs Make Great Pets' or whatever.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> That exchange honestly left me really confused at what people were trying to say because the mill thing seemed rather irrelevant.


In a thread about judging other people's choices about where they get their dogs, the point makes sense to me. And I've wondered about it myself many times before the point was brought up here, honestly - it's admirable to get a mill dog via a rescue, but villainous to get one directly? Why?



> It is rare that shelters buy mill dogs. I'm not even sure city intake shelters can. I'd always check out a rescue before getting a dog from them. Some are a bit shady.
> 
> Yes I know the cav and papillon thing happened recently but most shelter and rescue dogs aren't coming from situations like this.


This must be regional. It is not uncommon for rescues to get dogs from mills here, not usually in big buys but a "retired" dog here and there. I have super mixed feelings about it, I can't exactly feel that it's wrong when dogs are being helped but in the long run I think that these rescues are essentially turning themselves into brokers, another cog in the puppy mill machine. It's already happening to some degree I think, I suspect some of these rescues have relationships where millers let them know when a dog is being "retired." I guess it's good that the dogs end up eventually in a home, but it doesn't feel completely right, either.

People are SO happy and proud when they get dogs who came from mills, and it's just weird to me that the same person without the middle man would be ashamed to admit where they got the dog even if their intentions to rescue the dog were exactly the same.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well there's lots of tiny dog rescues but as I've never been interested in them I haven't looked much into where they get their dogs. 

But city shelters? They get way more than enough dogs in as is just from strays and owner surrenders. Like I said, we have a very high euth rate here and they're not wanting for dogs so I doubt they'd go out of their way to buy more.



> 'Adopt, Don't Shop' makes me roll my eyes, and I'm supportive of shelters or rescue. I don't like guilt or villainizing to promote a cause, and I feel that's the angle of it. I'd much rather see 'Rescue Mom' or 'I <3 My Rescue Dog' or 'Shelter Dogs Make Great Pets' or whatever.


Oh I've seen people (mostly online) get angry about those tag lines too. Or 'The Best Q is a Resc-Q' or any rescue dog shirts or bumper stickers. 'How dare they shove their agenda in my face!?' 

Lol I don't get it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

To answer the original question for this thread, I have to agree with cookieface that all fanatics annoy me, no matter what side of the argument they're on.

I live in an area with a low euth rate in shelters, almost no stray dogs, and not a lot of options in local shelters. I've seen a ton of pitties, hounds, lab/shepherd mixes, and small dogs, many sent up from the south, but very few herding breeds. Nice dogs, but in my time in rescue I only met maybe one who would have fit exactly what I was looking for. My friends got a fantastic ACD from a rescue, but he was shipped up from Kentucky which is common.

In my area, most dogs I meet are rescues, so I see a lot more anti-breeder sentiment than the other way around. The people I know with purebreds own the breed because they love it and not because it's the breed to have to be serious in competition. I know more standard schnauzers, siberians, catahoulas, and chessies, than I do border collies or aussies, just because of who I happen to train with, and all do dog sports competitively. I also train with more rescues than I do breeder dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think there are any puppymillers who would stop breeding if no rescues took their used-up dogs. So I don't know if I'd call that support. But yeah, no good answer really.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I don't think there are any puppymillers who would stop breeding if no rescues took their used-up dogs. So I don't know if I'd call that support. But yeah, no good answer really.


I don't think they would stop breeding, no. But I'm not sure they're unhappy about partnering with groups who will buy dogs they were going to just cull, which is support (and not just financially).


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

This "adopt don't shop" pisses me off. Last week a bunch of puppies were stolen from a pet store in my state. Reading the comments under the article had me pounding my head. I posted that if money is exchanged, you are purchasing the dog. My view is wherever you choose your dog (rescue, shelter, breeder), get it from a reputable place. Rescues and shelters are not all reputable.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> I don't think they would stop breeding, no. But I'm not sure they're unhappy about partnering with groups who will buy dogs they were going to just cull, which is support (and not just financially).


I guess if we ask "how would their behavior change without this "support"" and the answer is "it wouldn't", I don't see the point of withdrawing the support :/. Also, at least the ones I know of, they don't pay for culls. it's just a pick-up arrangement. They only pay for the dogs at at auction, and usually not much.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Also, I can't say I've ever met someone who was anti-mixed breed/shelter dog. Like ever.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I guess if we ask "how would their behavior change without this "support"" and the answer is "it wouldn't", I don't see the point of withdrawing the support :/. Also, at least the ones I know of, they don't pay for culls. it's just a pick-up arrangement. They only pay for the dogs at at auction, and usually not much.


Oh, well so glad "all" they ones who don't get money are getting is a socially acceptable "out," then.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Oh, well so glad "all" they ones who don't get money are getting is a socially acceptable "out," then.


I don't think they care about being socially acceptable though. Or they wouldn't keep dogs in small sterile cages and pump puppies out of them until they're worn out. Maybe.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

The only way we will end the mill issue is if the lawmakers make it illegal outright, short of that, I fear the most anyone can do is put a band aid on it. 

It sucks because rescue fanatics see what puppy mills do to the dogs, and the system etc ... and scream about how all breeders are like that, how all are bad and they should all be stopped. Sometimes rescue pluggers drive me more crazy than the millers.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Sometimes rescue pluggers drive me more crazy than the millers.


Yes, because pro-rescue people make you feel uncomfortable, and millers only abuse dogs to make money. I can definitely see how terrible that is :/.


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## Jenbeery (Mar 5, 2014)

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not bite my head off....but I am just wondering what defines a puppy mill, and what defines a breeder?? Does a breeder just breed one kind of dog, and mills multiple? Do breeders take their dogs out of cages and play with them and love them and mills don't?? I have been to a few places that called themselves breeders and their dogs were in cages, obviously not given any love or attention....I did not purchase because it made me sick. And I have been to breeders that just wanted to show me the puppies and I asked to see the mom and was shown an animal in a cage that looked very lonely also?? So were those mills?? Were they really breeders?? i adopted from the shelter after that experience


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Jenbeery said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not bite my head off....but I am just wondering what defines a puppy mill, and what defines a breeder?? Does a breeder just breed one kind of dog, and mills multiple? Do breeders take their dogs out of cages and play with them and love them and mills don't?? I have been to a few places that called themselves breeders and their dogs were in cages, obviously not given any love or attention....I did not purchase because it made me sick. And I have been to breeders that just wanted to show me the puppies and I asked to see the mom and was shown an animal in a cage that looked very lonely also?? So were those mills?? Were they really breeders?? i adopted from the shelter after that experience


There is a large continuum of breeders from mills to fabulous breeders and everything in between. It's not a black and white thing. Technically, anyone who breeds two dogs together is a "breeder". A good ethical breeder goes far beyond that.

If the breeder is not caring for the dogs in a way you are comfortable with, then don't buy from them. The breeders you described do not sound like good breeders, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Effisia said:


> Honestly? I think those breeding licenses are basically a crock. A big mill breeder is going to have no trouble affording them and they know how to work around inspections (if the inspections are even done - inspectors are few and far between and way over worked, if I recall). The only folks breeding licenses tend to hurt are smaller reputable breeders.


I can't disagree. inspectors are few and far between, and not enough inspections.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Jenbeery said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not bite my head off....but I am just wondering what defines a puppy mill, and what defines a breeder?? Does a breeder just breed one kind of dog, and mills multiple? Do breeders take their dogs out of cages and play with them and love them and mills don't?? I have been to a few places that called themselves breeders and their dogs were in cages, obviously not given any love or attention....I did not purchase because it made me sick. And I have been to breeders that just wanted to show me the puppies and I asked to see the mom and was shown an animal in a cage that looked very lonely also?? So were those mills?? Were they really breeders?? i adopted from the shelter after that experience


There are several threads here you can find to see what members on the forum define as a reputable breeder. Everyone has different things they look for in a breeder. To give you an example of what we consider a reputable breeder, both of the breeders we've worked with (or are in the process of working with) have several things in common. The dogs and puppies are always raised in the home as pets, the breeder can clearly explain what their goals are with the two dogs they're putting together, they have pedigrees readily available, they health test for all the recommended breed tests and will happily provide the records, they will ALWAYS take the puppy/dog back if the owner needs to give them up, they breed only a few litters a year, they keep contact with the new owners and are always happy to answer questions, they don't breed for extremes.... Those are our standards. The biggest ones, at any rate.

When it comes down to it, though, the specifics of what defines a reputable breeder often come down to what a puppy purchaser is comfortable with. In general, though, wire cages stacked on top of one another housing hundreds of dogs who pump out litter after litter with no regard for health or temperament - those are the mills. Then you have EVERYthing in between.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Mill is another word for factory. . .the large commercial breeders are the biggest puppy producers and probably come closest to being true puppy factories. They frequently have several hundred dogs. They're usually USDA licensed and inspected (such as it is). There are smaller-scale producers too. But basically anyone who's just breeding a lot of dogs to make money and doesn't really care about their dogs would count as a mill. They're just producing puppies like they're shoes, no regard for an actual living being.


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## mcdavis (May 1, 2012)

To answer the original question I find that no matter what the subject fanatics often deter more people than they encourage, so fine have a campaign encouraging people to adopt, point out the benefits, etc. but don't judge someone who chooses another route, especially when you don't know their circumstances.
We went the breeder route because we don't have an enclosed back yard so the rescues / shelters wouldn't allow us to adopt. My parents went the breeder route because the shelter they contacted wanted them to have two approved home visits plus a vet reference (at the time they had no relationship with any vet) then attend an interview, and told them that even after completing the process the chance of getting a dog was around 30%.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I don't think they would stop breeding, no. But I'm not sure they're unhappy about partnering with groups who will buy dogs they were going to just cull, which is support (and not just financially).


Who (genuinely asking, not sassy) are these places that are buying mill dogs? Other than the auctions, unless thats what you're referring to? The shelter I work at gets puppy mill dogs at least once a year, and nobody is paying the breeders for them- they're taken by LE. I feel like thats a far larger source of former mill dogs in rescue than auction dogs are.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Oh I've seen people (mostly online) get angry about those tag lines too. Or 'The Best Q is a Resc-Q' or any rescue dog shirts or bumper stickers. 'How dare they shove their agenda in my face!?'
> 
> Lol I don't get it.


'Best Q is a Resc-Q' suggests that a Q from a non-rescue is somehow less. I get the annoyance with that one. I would feel the same way it was 'Best Q is a Breeder-dog Q' (not that it rhymes, LOL, but you get the point). For the same reason, I'm kinda irked by 'Shelter Pets Make the BEST Pets.' Again, suggests that others are somehow less.

Doesn't *really* matter, but I don't prefer that attitude, even on a bumper sticker or T-shirt.

I'm sure there are stupid people who are offended by 'I <3 Shelter Pets.' People are offended by everything. I do wonder if they're jealous because if they wore a T-shirt with 'I Love Breeder Dogs,' the layperson would freak out.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would say best Q is a Res-Q isn't saying the best Q is a Q won by a rescue but the 'q' is just the rescue dog in general. I can't explain it well but I have never read it as comparing breeder dogs to rescue dogs. 

At any rate to me it's like getting mad over the 'If it's not a _____, it's just a dog' bumper stickers. 

I did see a great sticker last week though. Silhouette of a poodle and the words 'I have standards'. Love it.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I would say best Q is a Res-Q isn't saying the best Q is a Q won by a rescue but the 'q' is just the rescue dog in general. I can't explain it well but I have never read it as comparing breeder dogs to rescue dogs.
> 
> At any rate to me it's like getting mad over the 'If it's not a _____, it's just a dog' bumper stickers.
> 
> I did see a great sticker last week though. Silhouette of a poodle and the words 'I have standards'. Love it.


What is a Q? Is that a ridiculously stupid question?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It means you qualified in an agility run.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I did see a great sticker last week though. Silhouette of a poodle and the words 'I have standards'. Love it.


I need that.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Rescued said:


> What is a Q? Is that a ridiculously stupid question?


Q= qualifying run....means you did it under time and under the number of faults for your level. An agility term. I love Qs...but I love my dog more....

eta Laurelin types faster than me...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Rescued said:


> What is a Q? Is that a ridiculously stupid question?


Qualifying run - gives you points toward titles.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

cookieface said:


> I need that.


Totally thought of you when I saw that. If I had standard poodles, I WOULD have that sticker.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Rescued said:


> Who (genuinely asking, not sassy) are these places that are buying mill dogs? Other than the auctions, unless thats what you're referring to? The shelter I work at gets puppy mill dogs at least once a year, and nobody is paying the breeders for them- they're taken by LE. I feel like thats a far larger source of former mill dogs in rescue than auction dogs are.


The ones I've seen have been the small, "I'm a lady or dude who filled out some paperwork and call myself a rescue" type rescues. We get a smattering of patients who came through the system this way.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think "what defines a good breeder" is as individual as the person you are asking at that moment. Ask 20 people that same question and you will likely get 20 different answers.

Personally (and I only speak for myself here) I am wary of breeders who breed more than one breed, who dont health test, and only show their dogs in conformation, nothing else, or use outdated, disproven training methods. I genuinely look for a breeder who focuses more on sports and breed appropriate trials than conformation shows. I also prefer a smaller breeder, even some good breeders have more than 20 dogs and they are kenneled. I also stay away from breeders who always seem to have puppies available.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

To me, a good breeder puts health first. Health testing is a must followed by temperament and good physical structure. I like a healthy balance of conformation AND sports. Being thoroughly knowledgeable on their breed(s) is also a must. Being an active member of the breed club and working to better the breed is important too for example in Boston Terriers, there are breeders who are starting to radiograph bitches' birthing canal and working towards eliminating the need for cesarean sections.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

For me, a good breeder is someone who breeds only when they are actually looking for a keeper pup. They may not get it in a particular litter, and that's fine, but they shouldn't be breeding just to produce pups to sell -- pet pups should be a byproduct of their breeding. They should care very much about health and do health tests for their breed (for papillons, at minimum I'd want to see PRA1 testing, and for AKK, Factor VII testing). They stand behind their pups with a health guarantee and will always take a dog back no matter how old or sick it is if the new owner can no longer keep it. They will not keep their dogs constantly kenneled; they will care about proper socialization and desensitization starting at a young age. They will carefully study pedigrees in search of the best match for their dogs; they will be aware of the health and longevity of the dogs' ancestors. I prefer it if they show (unless they breed working breeds like huskies or border collies; in that case the dogs will prove themselves through years of work), but showing is not an absolute necessity as long as they health test and strive for healthy, structurally-sound pups.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Replying to the whole "rescues supporting millers!!" part of the thread...

It's a little draconian and I probably wouldn't have the heart to follow through with it, but why not just NOT buy the dogs at the auctions, but publicize the dogs and their conditions and mention how all these dogs are going to die because this mill exists. And by publicize I'm talking about advertising the auction and explaining that these are the "useless" dogs that have outlived the purpose of the miller. (Only problem is someone calls your bluff, buys dogs and miller gets money). Sometimes I'm just a jerk though, and feel like shock value has it's time and place. 

BUT then you run into the ethics of guilting someone into a decision which is also problematic.

On what is a breeder:

My own personal definitions--

Miller-mass produced, factory farm type production of dogs

BYB (Backyard breeder)-smaller scale than a miller, derogatory term used for any bad breeder or breeder you personally don't approve of

A 'real'/'ethical' breeder-a breeder you are comfortable with and would support with your money. (Health tests, takes the dog back, generally treats their dogs like pets, etc.)


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

My last dog was from a breeder. She genuinely adored the breed and it was a wonderful experience. The puppies grew up in their house with oodles of love and care and new homes were very carefully selected. On their first birthday, the breeder had a huge party and the siblings were reunited. We would dog sit for her when she went out of town and she'd do the same for us. We'd also go to cheer her dogs on in agility and conformation... we were like extended family.

However, whenever someone would ask about our dog... find out she was from a breeder, I can't tell you how many times I heard, "well that's unfortunate with all the dogs in need of homes in shelters and rescues." And that's the kind version, most people expressed their feelings about our breeder dog in much more blunt terms.

With our current dog on the other hand, we went the rescue route and searched and applied for dogs over a 3 year span before being approved. I have allergies that meant a lot of breed restrictions and my husband and I really wanted a puppy. I can tell you, not once have I heard "oh that's too bad you got him from a rescue instead of a breeder." Just last weekend at a holiday party, we were small talking with some strangers and connected over our dogs. That was one of their first questions, "did you adopt?" and they went on and on about how horrible it is to support breeders of any kind. Hm, okay I did get my current dog from a rescue, but that doesn't mean I hate all breeders! I just kept my mouth shut. It makes me sad because, honestly, our breeder experience was an absolute blast! We received a tremendous amount of support and I don't believe it was wrong in any way, but I felt far more judged than I do now with my current dog.

I think the majority of the anti-rescue people I've encountered in my experience have just been ignorant to the whole dog world in general. They've been people who say, "I don't think I want to take on all that baggage with a shelter dog, I'd rather buy from a pet shop where I know what I'm getting." They've been people who seriously have no idea what a puppy mill even is, don't understand that shelter dogs aren't flawed rejects, and don't have any concept of what makes a good breeder. I haven't often had someone who went the reputable breeder route judge me for rescuing. 

From this thread, I'd say it probably varies a lot by region as well as your dog circles. If you're in conformation, maybe you'd be more likely to hear the anti-rescue sentiment.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

sassafras said:


> it's admirable to get a mill dog via a rescue, but villainous to get one directly? Why?
> 
> People are SO happy and proud when they get dogs who came from mills, and it's just weird to me that the same person without the middle man would be ashamed to admit where they got the dog even if their intentions to rescue the dog were exactly the same.


I'm assuming you didn't mean all, or even "most" though that's the way this came across, and *maybe* you meant it referring to the crop of psuedo rescues in your area, but:

What exactly is your (general) issue with a situation like mine- ending up with a "desirable" former mill dog through rescue? Why shouldn't I be proud that I rescued (as in literally carried her two ounce body out in my cupped hands under a poncho) grey from a mill? How does that conflict at all with me feeling certain that it would have been nothing short of unethical to purchase her from her breeder?

And does that somehow differ if I was looking for a Pomeranian, and rescued her in the same way? I wasn't, but I don't think that the fact that people "luck" into mill dogs that are the breed they're looking for through rescue is a bad thing?





Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Rescued said:


> What exactly is your (general) issue with a situation like mine- ending up with a "desirable" former mill dog through rescue?


My issue? I don't have an issue with a situation like yours. 



> Why shouldn't I be proud that I rescued (as in literally carried her two ounce body out in my cupped hands under a poncho) grey from a mill? How does that conflict at all with me feeling certain that it would have been nothing short of unethical to purchase her from her breeder?
> 
> And does that somehow differ if I was looking for a Pomeranian, and rescued her in the same way? I wasn't, but I don't think that the fact that people "luck" into mill dogs that are the breed they're looking for through rescue is a bad thing?


I'm not saying it's bad to be proud. I'm not saying rescues should or shouldn't get mill dogs. I'm simply wondering why, societally, the exact same person with the exact same dog from the exact same mill with the exact same intention to get a dog out of a bad situation would be seen in a positive light if the dog went from mill to rescue (which somehow magically legitimizes the entire transaction) to owner but in a negative light if the dog went directly from mill to owner.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well maybe in those instances adopters are not aware that the rescue purchased the dog from the miller? Who knows.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I'd feel less guilty supporting mainly rescue causes and puppy mills indirectly than directly just supporting mills in my effort to save a dog. Guess it depends how often the rescue decided to be dumb and buy dogs from mills.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

sassafras said:


> My issue? I don't have an issue with a situation like yours.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying it's bad to be proud. I'm not saying rescues should or shouldn't get mill dogs. I'm simply wondering why, societally, the exact same person with the exact same dog from the exact same mill with the exact same intention to get a dog out of a bad situation would be seen in a positive light if the dog went from mill to rescue (which somehow magically legitimizes the entire transaction) to owner but in a negative light if the dog went directly from mill to owner.


Are we referring only to situations in which the mill operator is aided positively in any way by the transaction? Because the obvious answer is- a dog seized and put in rescue by LE and then rehomed is not beneficial for the mill operator. Whereas purchasing that same dog is beneficial to the mill operator.

And assuming the above (situations in which the mill operator derives some benefit from the transaction)- I dont think that "societally" it IS always seen in a positive light. Hence why we have long threads about dog auctions? I dont think that situation is something that ANYONE in society regards as "Totally 100% okay and good." I think its more of a cost-benefit analysis, if that makes sense. Which is why I'm having a hard time understanding your statement, because it seems as though you are under the impression that "rescue" means "okay" for most people- and I don't think it does.

I guess I'm taking issue with this statement mostly:



> would be seen in a positive light if the dog went from mill to rescue (which *somehow magically legitimizes *the entire transaction)


According to.... who, exactly? "Society?" Who in society? I feel like thats painting a LOT of people with one brush- as harsh as it is, I, as someone who works in rescue- do NOT agree with buying from auctions. Or taking dogs from a mill breeder with anything other than a commensalism or parasitism type relationship. Mutualism? Not doing anyone any favors in the long run.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

People are talking like rescues getting dogs from mills is adding substantially to the miller's pockets...mills make their bucks from selling the puppies not the parents. The case with breeder sell outs like the big cavalier and papillon purchase keep breeding stock out of the mills. The cavalier owner received no money from the sale. It was impounded. I don't know what the case was with the papillons. Either way both breeders were getting out of high volume breeding. "Quality" dogs, meaning dogs with semi decent AKC pedigrees were kept out of the mill system. Millers could have sold the puppies for more money because of the pedigrees...."see these dogs have champions in their background...no mill dogs here, no sireeee". I have ZERO issue with any rescue going in and getting dogs from millers.



> Guess it depends how often the rescue decided to be dumb and buy dogs from mills.


It has nothing to do with being dumb. It has everything to do with being compassionate for those dogs who are suffering. If you want to be concerned with lining miller's pockets....look to your own government who refuses to enforce their own cruelty laws. Look to the AKC who continues to register dogs from high volume breeders. Look at these businesses who sponsor events for the Missouri Pet Breeders Association which is huge group of millers. https://www.mpbaonline.org/resources/sponsor-links.html I am sure the money given by these organizations far surpasses any money received from rescues.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Rescued, I'm not quite sure what you are even asking me about at this point that I haven't already said? Either I'm not repeatedly not explaining it well or you're repeatedly not understanding it well I guess?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

So Cavalier said:


> People are talking like rescues getting dogs from mills is adding substantially to the miller's pockets...mills make their bucks from selling the puppies not the parents. The case with breeder sell outs like the big cavalier and papillon purchase keep breeding stock out of the mills. The cavalier owner received no money from the sale. It was impounded. I don't know what the case was with the papillons. Either way both breeders were getting out of high volume breeding. "Quality" dogs, meaning dogs with semi decent AKC pedigrees were kept out of the mill system. Millers could have sold the puppies for more money because of the pedigrees...."see these dogs have champions in their background...no mill dogs here, no sireeee". I have ZERO issue with any rescue going in and getting dogs from millers.
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with being dumb. It has everything to do with being compassionate for those dogs who are suffering. If you want to be concerned with lining miller's pockets....look to your own government who refuses to enforce their own cruelty laws. Look to the AKC who continues to register dogs from high volume breeders. Look at these business who sponsor events for the Missouri Pet Breeders Association which is huge group of millers. https://www.mpbaonline.org/resources/sponsor-links.html I am sure the money given by these organizations far surpasses any money received from rescues.


I'm not talking about the auction situation. I'm talking about a rescue that goes out to buy a puppy from a mill at full price to rescue it, which I don't really see happen anyway. I was just trying to understand sass's weird extreme situation that I never see happen. Excuse me for using the word "dumb". I meant it more in the way of "silly because that isn't helping anything" kind of way.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

It's weird and extreme that some rescues purchase retired mill dogs and adopt them out?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

You never said retired mill dog, did you? I assumed just dogs or puppies in general. Anyways, if they purchase them it's generally not enough for the mill to make a profit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> You never said retired mill dog, did you? I assumed just dogs or puppies in general. Anyways, if they purchase them it's generally not enough for the mill to make a profit.


Well, Your assumptions aren't really my problem although at least once I did specify. 



sassafras said:


> In a thread about judging other people's choices about where they get their dogs, the point makes sense to me. And I've wondered about it myself many times before the point was brought up here, honestly - it's admirable to get a mill dog via a rescue, but villainous to get one directly? Why?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In any case, is that really the sticking point? Really? I'm not even arguing a particular position about what is right or wrong or who should or shouldn't get dogs from here, there, or anywhere. I'm simply idly wondering why if I got a former mill dog through a rescue it would generally be more favorably looked upon (by the general public as well as by the "dog community") than if I went to a mill to purchase the exact same dog in an attempt to "rescue" it myself... and scratching my head over why everyone seems to find the idle speculation so confusing.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> In any case, is that really the sticking point? Really? I'm not even arguing a particular position about what is right or wrong or who should or shouldn't get dogs from here, there, or anywhere. I'm simply idly wondering why if I got a former mill dog through a rescue it would generally be more favorably looked upon (by the general public as well as by the "dog community") than if I went to a mill to purchase the exact same dog in an attempt to "rescue" it myself... and scratching my head over why everyone seems to find the idle speculation so confusing.


I would have no issue with an individual who purchased an adult breeder privately from a mill with the intent to rescue it. In fact, I wish more private citizens would attend auctions. From the videos I have seen, they are horrific. The dogs are scared and shut down. Maybe more people would get up in arms. The National Mill Dog Rescue came about because of one woman's experience at a dog auction. http://milldogrescue.org/ 

A video...(produced by the HSUS...I know, I know....but still accurate) shows dog auctions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEt1rkq0Gw4 This second one is even worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG7bXi0xylY I can sort of understand how people involve with rescue at this level could become pretty passionate about what they are doing.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Well, Your assumptions aren't really my problem although at least once I did specify.


Well, geeze. Sorry..


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Guuuysssss....


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I didn't really read the thread... but the first post is pretty much all I need. I support shelters, and responsible rescues. I don't support belittling someone because they're prefer to go to a breeder for the sole fact that they know exactly what they want in a dog and that's why they're doing it. I made the mistake of going to a BYB, and I'll never forgive myself for not taking advice when I should have known better. My experience with talk of going to a breeder has been both ways. Someone in my family told me, "Oh, but I thought you were against all that?" and on the other hand, I've gotten the comment, "That's really great you're going to such a good responsible breeder." (The second comment came from a co worker who has a Soft Coated Wheaten, as well as a Standard Poodle. Both from very good breeders.) (The first comment comes from someone who has done absolutely no research in this stuff.)

All I care about in a breeder, and the reason I will be going to my particular MAS breeder is... she cares deeply for the breed. She wants to better the breed, and make it grow. She cares deeply for any and all puppies that come out of her dogs for their life time, she makes sure ALL recommended tests - and beyond - are done and recorded; as well as available to her buyers. She stands behind her puppies and dogs and will always care for their future. 

On how to stop the irresponsible breeding/rescues... It really comes down to Education. There will always be greedy, money hungry people out there breeding dogs because it makes a quick buck... but the more we educate, the better chance that those numbers will go down. My co worker said the other day "If only I didn't have a soul... then I could be making thousands off breeding dogs."


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## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> For me, a good breeder is someone who breeds only when they are actually looking for a keeper pup. They may not get it in a particular litter, and that's fine, but they shouldn't be breeding just to produce pups to sell -- pet pups should be a byproduct of their breeding. They should care very much about health and do health tests for their breed (for papillons, at minimum I'd want to see PRA1 testing, and for AKK, Factor VII testing). They stand behind their pups with a health guarantee and will always take a dog back no matter how old or sick it is if the new owner can no longer keep it. They will not keep their dogs constantly kenneled; they will care about proper socialization and desensitization starting at a young age. They will carefully study pedigrees in search of the best match for their dogs; they will be aware of the health and longevity of the dogs' ancestors. I prefer it if they show (unless they breed working breeds like huskies or border collies; in that case the dogs will prove themselves through years of work), but showing is not an absolute necessity as long as they health test and strive for healthy, structurally-sound pups.


What's so wrong about producing excellent dogs(both ways-health and standard)and not keeping them? It's kinda not possible to keep a puppy from every litter,not even form every second litter.I have 4 dogs now,all of them are females and all of them will be bred.I'm having a one to two litters per year. I can't get a new,or even two new dogs every year.Everything has a limit. I have in my plans a litter where I'm not going to keep any of those puppies,I'm just trying to produce healthy and quality purebred dogs.Someone else gets to show them.I do health test,I do show,I do work them,I will take back any of my puppies at any age,at any time,I don't keep them in kennels,like ever,I don't even have one,I socialize,I feed the best quality food I can afford(Acana) and get,I deworm,vaccinate,microchip and carefully look for the new owners. Am I bad breeder just because I'm not going to keep a puppy from every litter I breed?


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Pasarella said:


> What's so wrong about producing excellent dogs(both ways-health and standard)and not keeping them? It's kinda not possible to keep a puppy from every litter,not even form every second litter.I have 4 dogs now,all of them are females and all of them will be bred.I'm having a one to two litters per year. I can't get a new,or even two new dogs every year.Everything has a limit. I have in my plans a litter where I'm not going to keep any of those puppies,I'm just trying to produce healthy and quality purebred dogs.Someone else gets to show them.I do health test,I do show,I do work them,I will take back any of my puppies at any age,at any time,I don't keep them in kennels,like ever,I don't even have one,I socialize,I feed the best quality food I can afford(Acana) and get,I deworm,vaccinate,microchip and carefully look for the new owners. Am I bad breeder just because I'm not going to keep a puppy from every litter I breed?


In my opinion, no. I think you're doing a fine job as a breeder.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Pasarella said:


> What's so wrong about producing excellent dogs(both ways-health and standard)and not keeping them? It's kinda not possible to keep a puppy from every litter,not even form every second litter.I have 4 dogs now,all of them are females and all of them will be bred.I'm having a one to two litters per year. I can't get a new,or even two new dogs every year.Everything has a limit. I have in my plans a litter where I'm not going to keep any of those puppies,I'm just trying to produce healthy and quality purebred dogs.Someone else gets to show them.I do health test,I do show,I do work them,I will take back any of my puppies at any age,at any time,I don't keep them in kennels,like ever,I don't even have one,I socialize,I feed the best quality food I can afford(Acana) and get,I deworm,vaccinate,microchip and carefully look for the new owners. Am I bad breeder just because I'm not going to keep a puppy from every litter I breed?


 your doing great as a breeder in my opinion. 

The breeder I got my boy malcom from had a contract we had to fulfill doing certain things by a certain date or they would repo our dog, such as vaccinations etc. It was actually quite rigorous and she was an amazing breeder.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I've seen the extremes from both ends and find it incredibly dumb and annoying. Both my dogs are rescues and I love them to pieces. They probably won't be the last rescues I have in my life, and I will always support, donate, help out rescues when I can. But even still, I'd like my next dog to be from a breeder, simply so I can have the experience of seeing what it's like to adopt a dog from a good genetic background. If I'm not handing money over to a mill operation or a BYB who's sticking random dogs together and breeding litter after litter as a way to make a profit, I don't see how that's doing wrong by rescue dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Pasarella said:


> What's so wrong about producing excellent dogs(both ways-health and standard)and not keeping them? It's kinda not possible to keep a puppy from every litter,not even form every second litter.I have 4 dogs now,all of them are females and all of them will be bred.I'm having a one to two litters per year. I can't get a new,or even two new dogs every year.Everything has a limit. I have in my plans a litter where I'm not going to keep any of those puppies,I'm just trying to produce healthy and quality purebred dogs.Someone else gets to show them.I do health test,I do show,I do work them,I will take back any of my puppies at any age,at any time,I don't keep them in kennels,like ever,I don't even have one,I socialize,I feed the best quality food I can afford(Acana) and get,I deworm,vaccinate,microchip and carefully look for the new owners. Am I bad breeder just because I'm not going to keep a puppy from every litter I breed?


You're fine. That list was my own personal preferences. I like it when I know that a breeder is working to better a breed by matching dogs very carefully for the purpose of producing a pup that's better than either parent, and by keeping that pup to further their lines. Of course you're not going to get that amazing pup in every litter; you may have show-quality ones that don't fit your needs and can go to other show breeders, or pet-quality ones that can go to happy families. But I like it when the goal is to produce a keeper.

But no, I don't think that you're a bad breeder.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> You're fine. That list was my own personal preferences. I like it when I know that a breeder is working to better a breed by matching dogs very carefully for the purpose of producing a pup that's better than either parent, and by keeping that pup to further their lines. Of course you're not going to get that amazing pup in every litter; you may have show-quality ones that don't fit your needs and can go to other show breeders, or pet-quality ones that can go to happy families. But I like it when the goal is to produce a keeper.
> 
> But no, I don't think that you're a bad breeder.


This.

They may not necessarily keep a puppy, but they breed with the intention of doing so. the intention of keeping a puppy isn't a deal breaker for me, either, though.


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## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

I'm planning to actually keep a pup from Moka's and Mimi's last litter.That is...about 6 years ago. Well I do have plans about co-ownership a few pups from my future litters.I'm planning to cross Moka's son( hopefully we will get a red or brindle show-quality male) and Fanta's daughter from a litter I'm planning for her maybe two years from now,it depends how things are going,I'm planning a trip to Moscow for this(1000km one direction).Also I'm planning a trip to Split,Croatia with Fera to handsome black&tan male,and hopefully we will get beautifull black&tan male.But I'm not going to keep any of them.I just know we in Latvia have problems with finding black males for our females.They all are relatives all ready,so I'm going to make this trip to get some fresh bloodline in Latvia. We now have only one with this kennels bloodlines,and that is my brindle female,she is daughter from male hwo comes from that kennel.


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## Lecky (Nov 27, 2014)

No, it doesn't bother me at all, in fact I wish more people were open to having a mix-breed dog and saving a life. I don't see anything wrong with getting a purebreed, I have had a golden retriever and now have a mini LH chihuahua...but, I seldomly have one dog. I try to rescue one shelter dog (or in my case 3 now) per purebred dog. It is very heartbreaking to see all the dogs that need homes, and my best behaved dog ever is a black lab mix with pit. Save a cat too while you are at it .


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Lecky said:


> Save a cat too while you are at it .


did I mention I have about 40+ pets right now 90% of them rescues? LOL


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## Lecky (Nov 27, 2014)

sharpei said:


> did I mention I have about 40+ pets right now 90% of them rescues? LOL


Now that's a lot of work!


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

it's a labor of love my friend.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I am quite sure I have friended someone on fb who is a "adopt don't shop!" Extremist ... we will see how this goes lol, since I have lots and lots of breeder friends.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

that could turn into a pile of drama, fortunately when people post stuff you don't want to see you can remove it from your feed. I do that all the time. I have a bunch of friends that are "pro-pot" and love stoner humor, I personally dont care about it either way, but I remove all the drug related stuff from my feed because my daughter sometimes looks over my shoulder and I prefer she didn't see that garbage and start to think I endorse it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sharpei said:


> that could turn into a pile of drama, fortunately when people post stuff you don't want to see you can remove it from your feed. I do that all the time. I have a bunch of friends that are "pro-pot" and love stoner humor, I personally dont care about it either way, but I remove all the drug related stuff from my feed because my daughter sometimes looks over my shoulder and I prefer she didn't see that garbage and start to think I endorse it.


Meh, weed aint the worst thing out there, though. I smoke cigarettes so I really cant go pointing fingers at pot smokers LOL. I had a similar problem with a lot of my friends posting political garb, I just got sick of seeing it, so I would select the "hide all posts from" and select the source the article was coming from (not my friend, because they also post a lot of stuff I DO want to see).

I like to friend people in rescue so I can help them network dogs, you know? But if she starts leaving nasty comments on the posts my breeder friends make on my feed, she is going to get unfriended and blocked, quick.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

So, I come from a culture where dogs are just dogs and the idea of paying hundreds of dollars for one when you can get one for free off the street (or for a nominal fee from a shelter) is considered decadent. On the other hand, no one in my family ever took any truck with animal welfare groups either, so the idea of thousands of dogs dying in shelters wasn't thought of as cruel, just wasteful. From my side of the fence, it looked like people who bred dogs only cared about looks (I was utterly ignorant of working lines). I've since come to realize that there are very important reasons to breed dogs and to purchase purebreds, but that "adopt, don't shop" mentality is a reaction to the airheads who buy a thousand-dollar puppy because they think it's cute and then abandon it when they find out it needs hours of exercise (work) a day to stay sane.

I'm not saying that I currently have any problem with responsible breeders, but maybe this gives some insight into where the "adopt, don't shop" people might be coming from? I'm sure many of them are just animal rights fanatics, but an equal number of them might have been raised (as I was) in an area where responsible breeding is unheard of. They may just be ignorant of what breeding entails and why it is necessary. No one in my family ever owned a purebred dog that I'm aware of, but no one fixed their dogs either (too expensive). If you had a good hunting dog you might breed it in hopes of getting more good hunting dogs, but that was as sophisticated as "breeding" got. And if the dog attacked the chickens, you shot it and picked up a new one off the street. When that's the culture you are exposed to, and you try later on to be kind to animals and be a responsible dog owner, it's natural to think that all "breeders" are heartless snooty snoots or ******* jackwagons. Again, I'm not trying to justify this attitude, just give some insight into its possible origins.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Lecky said:


> Save a cat too while you are at it .


while most of our dogs are purebreeds - all our cats are rescued- three currently....


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

My new pup is a rescued purebred, my cat is a rescue, my rabbit was a rescue (rip) as well as my snake and every pet before Manna. Manna is the welcome exception and honestly it was nice knowing what I was getting into with her.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I always rescue cats, too. I don't have anything against people who breed or buy purebred cats (and I'd love to have a Bengal and/or an Egyptian mau), but personally, I just can't seem to justify buying a cat when I could walk into a shelter and easily find a cat that suited me. With dogs, I want very specific things and I prefer going the breeder route, but I could live happily with pretty much any cat as long as it didn't have major issues. I've owned a bunch of cats in my life and they've all been very different, but I loved them all.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> You're fine. That list was my own personal preferences. I like it when I know that a breeder is working to better a breed by matching dogs very carefully for the purpose of producing a pup that's better than either parent, and by keeping that pup to further their lines. Of course you're not going to get that amazing pup in every litter; you may have show-quality ones that don't fit your needs and can go to other show breeders, or pet-quality ones that can go to happy families. But I like it when the goal is to produce a keeper.
> 
> But no, I don't think that you're a bad breeder.


Thing is, a breeder can't tell for certain what puppies might be *the* pup that will be the best prospect for furthering their lines. And if they always keep pups from litters, they're going to end up with a "Show Kennel" (or working kennel) which limits the individual time and dedication each dog gets and their resources to take back dogs whose circumstances change.

This is one reason many breeders maintain co-ownership contracts and some or all dogs that allow *limited* breeding access to dogs under show / breeding contracts. Such as allowing them one pup back, one breeding or semen collection. A pup that I was offered was a pup the breeder wanted to keep access to, but would have preferred to place to maintain space in her home (as she was keeping a different pup from the litter). The contract would have merely required one breeding or collection off of the pup should he pass his health clearances. Unfortunately, I am not comfortable with the idea of adding another intact male at this time, so I declined and she has instead kept him until another placement ideal to her is found. I kick myself regularly for declining, but it is what it is and now is just not the time for another male. 

A breeder can breed with the intention of improving the breed by careful selection, and even with the thought in mind to improve their line, without any intention what so ever of actually *keeping* one of the puppies.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yes. I did not say that a breeder was _required_ to keep a pup out of every litter. I said that I prefer it when breeders breed with the intention of producing a keeper pup. If as a pup ages, it becomes obvious that it's not going to work out, there are always pet buyers who would love an older, trained pup. Most good breeders I know also only breed once or twice a year and retire their breeding dogs after a litter or two, so they don't end up with a surplus of "keepers."

Also, I would consider having a show prospect live with someone else, but retaining breeding rights, as being essentially the same as keeping the pup.


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