# Crystals in urine



## Petlovr

My vet has told me that my 1 1/2 yr old has crystals in her urine and wants me to buy dog food from them. Is that really going to help or do they just want more money? Also does anyone have a dog that leaks urine ? My vet put her on Proin, and he said IF this works she'll have to be on it for the rest of her life. I just hate the thought of having to give her this medication, so many side effects...


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## Fairhaven

Petlovr said:


> My vet has told me that my 1 1/2 yr old has crystals in her urine and wants me to buy dog food from them. Is that really going to help or do they just want more money? Also does anyone have a dog that leaks urine ? My vet put her on Proin, and he said IF this works she'll have to be on it for the rest of her life. I just hate the thought of having to give her this medication, so many side effects...


Urolithiasis is a disease caused by the presence and effects of uroliths (stones) or claculi or excessive amounts of crystals in the urinary tract. The disease is referred to by many names, including cystitis, urethritis, urinary calculi, bladder stones, or kidney stones. As in humans, these stones and crystals can form anywhere in the urinary tract of the dog, including the kidney, urethra, or most commonly, the bladder. These crystals or stones irritate the lining of the urinary tract, causing changes in the lining, blood in the urine, and often pain. In some cases the crystals or stones will block or partially block the flow or urine, making urination painful or impossible. Crystaluria denotes the presence of crystals in the urine. Crystals form when minerals bind together. The bound crystals are not as soluble as the unbound form and may result in mineral deposits, much like the deposits commonly found in a teapot or coffee maker. Special diets work by reducing the mineral building blocks or urinary stones in the urine. These diets affect the urine pH and increase urination to help flush the urinary tract. To completely dissolve the stones takes 4-16 weeks, depending on the size and number of stones present. I suggest you follow your vet's advice. The alternative would be surgery which is much more expensive and more invasive on the dogs part.


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## KDTurngren

*Crystals in urinary tract*

Our newly acquired 4 yr old 45lb dog just returned from vet - with urinary tract crystals & is now on a 2-month diet of Hill's Prescription Diet s/d canned food. Our vet suggested that a large percentage of dogs within a 50 mile radius of us have this same problem. She believes the local water supply may be a major contributor. After moving here about 2 years ago, I noticed strange heavy deposits in the bird baths and in the outside water dish (all filled from tap water). I never had this where we used to live. You may try giving your pet only bottled water along with the prescribed food. Also - ask your vet if you can eventually switch to a diet of cooked rice with some cooked mixed vegetables (no onions or seasonings). Our other dog has been on a diet of rice and vegetables with a small amount of chicken or high quality lamb/rice dry food and is doing very well. We are hoping we can eventually switch our new dog with the urinary tract problem to the rice/vegetable diet. One last suggestion from a local vet was add cranberry juice to your pet's water and to the food - as much as the pet can tolerate. Check with your vet and follow their direction. Good luck!


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## kimber039

My dog was just diagnosed today with having crystals and she has to go on expensive food from the vets place in which they are* not* trying to get you with money, they really are helping your dog. I know because I work at a animal hospital. I have to bring my dog back to get ex-ray to see if stones has developed and if so, then she has to have surgery to have them removed. But she has to go on the diet food for the rest of her life. Wish you the best and your pet.


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## MegaMuttMom

Not every dog who has crystals needs to go on a prescription diet. My dog had struvite crystals with no symptoms. I got a second opinion when my vet said to put my dog on a prescription diet for the rest of his life. Here is a link you can read:
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/bladder-stones-crystals/

If the vet I got a second opinion from said I had to a special food, this is one I was going to look into. A lot of the prescription foods have ingredients (like corn) that I don't want to feed my dog.

http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/struvatrol.pdf


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## kimber039

MegaMuttMom said:


> Not every dog who has crystals needs to go on a prescription diet. My dog had struvite crystals with no symptoms. I got a second opinion when my vet said to put my dog on a prescription diet for the rest of his life. Here is a link you can read:
> http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/bladder-stones-crystals/
> 
> If the vet I got a second opinion from said I had to a special food, this is one I was going to look into. A lot of the prescription foods have ingredients (like corn) that I don't want to feed my dog.
> 
> http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/struvatrol.pdf


I understand that not every dog needs to go on diet food but if a Vet tells us our dogs should or have to, then obviously our dogs are the ones. I know and trust my vet and I do what she tells me I should. I was saying the vet is not gonna lie to get money off a food bag.


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## elenajas

It isn't that the vet is trying to get more money or not, it is often that some vets are becoming more versed in canine nutrition, and some are not. The ones who are not, often still use the Hills and Science diet foods as fixes. However, these foods often can mask other illnesses or problems, and are not really things any dog should be eating as they are full of corn, filler, and rarely any meat. 

For crystals it depends what kind of crystals you have. If you have struvite crystals then you can help control it with food. You can also add supplements like Berry Balance to help or cranberry pills. Many dog owners control struvite crystals with either a raw diet, or a kibble diet. (Ill talk about struvite b/c they are the most common type, and calcium oxalate crystals cannot easily be controlled by diet except to avoid foods high in oxalate). Struvites form in alkaline urine, so to prevent you need to keep the pH of the urine more on the acidic side. You should choose a kibble accordingly--if you need help with that you can feel free to ask. 

Some people also use Ester C (vitamin C), apple cider vinegar, and "tinkle tonic" to help. Often people buy pH strips so they can test the urine and make sure it is staying on the acidic side. Also, lots of fluids is important daily to keep the system flushed and moving. Some people also use a solution of water and apple cider vinegar to cleanse the pee area on the pup as well as often crystals often come with infections, like UTIs and bladder infections. 

Basically, you don't need that Hills food, to be honest it is overpriced corn in a bag. And you can get a good kibble that will keep your urine acidic that is actually a healthy food. More and more vets are becoming interested in the newest stuff on nutrition, and less and less are recommending the HIlls or SD. I would suggest a kibble that will keep you acidic, lots of water (you can add it to the kibble if it helps them drink, or a tiny drop of low sodium meat broth to the water if they dont like to drink), Berry Balance (and the ACV if you like) and pH test strips. You can really manage it this way, i know TONS of dogs who have, and who have stayed off antibiotics and struvite free. 

I know it is stressfull! Good luck!


KdTurngreen:
Are you only feeding rice and veggies? I assume you are also feeding all the dogs the lamb kibble as well, or the vet told you how to supplement a home cooked diet? Just rice and veggies (in case someone reading your post misunderstood) is not a complete diet for a dog, and is lacking important things like calcium and phosphorus to just name a few. Are you doing a home cooked diet with all the supplements?


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## spotted nikes

Distilled water can help, along with changing the diet. Especially if you have a high mineral content in your tap water.


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## Thracian

I'm not familiar with Proin, but my Lhasa-poo is on a prescription diet after having surgery to remove a huge stone from his bladder. (This was two weeks after I adopted him, no less.) The diet has helped him immensely--no more straining to urinate, and he seems to enjoy the food.


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## elenajas

Thracian, Im glad your pup is doing well, however if you ever find the eye staining, eye goop, or have any issues like dull coat, or large poops, and want to switch feel free to let me know and Id be happy to help. I just dislike those foods b/c if you look at the ingredients they usually have little or no meat, and are full of corn, and filler, and that is a high price for a bag of corn. Also, if you ran out of food for your dog, would you give him some chicken or open a can of corn? I found that some dogs do have amazing results on better foods, and some just are lucky and have great genes and do only slighty better on the outside. I did find smaller poops, no or less eye crusties and no staining, and for example, my Chi when I adopted him had a dull rough coarse coat, had huge dandruff, no belly hair/fur at all, and after 2-3 weeks on better food he was like a new dog. He has shiny soft fur/coat now, his dandruff is 100% gone, and all his belly hair/fur grew in! It was incredible. What I worry about most though, is the stuff on the inside that you can't see. I mean, with Sal, I could see outside results, but knowing that his health insidehis body is better, is what makes me most happy, and should result in less vet bills later on. 

Anyway, Im glad you are doing well, and my point is just that you can still feed an excellent healthy tasty food, and treat crystals pretty easily with other methods! I hope it helps someone!


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## M27

elenajas said:


> Thracian, Im glad your pup is doing well, however if you ever find the eye staining, eye goop, or have any issues like dull coat, or large poops, and want to switch feel free to let me know and Id be happy to help. I just dislike those foods b/c if you look at the ingredients they usually have little or no meat, and are full of corn, and filler, and that is a high price for a bag of corn. Also, if you ran out of food for your dog, would you give him some chicken or open a can of corn? I found that some dogs do have amazing results on better foods, and some just are lucky and have great genes and do only slighty better on the outside. I did find smaller poops, no or less eye crusties and no staining, and for example, my Chi when I adopted him had a dull rough coarse coat, had huge dandruff, no belly hair/fur at all, and after 2-3 weeks on better food he was like a new dog. He has shiny soft fur/coat now, his dandruff is 100% gone, and all his belly hair/fur grew in! It was incredible. What I worry about most though, is the stuff on the inside that you can't see. I mean, with Sal, I could see outside results, but knowing that his health insidehis body is better, is what makes me most happy, and should result in less vet bills later on.
> 
> Anyway, Im glad you are doing well, and my point is just that you can still feed an excellent healthy tasty food, and treat crystals pretty easily with other methods! I hope it helps someone!



Hello, I hope you don't mind me asking this, but I was wondering what kind of food you started feeding your Chi that got such great results? Hearing you describe your dog sounds just like you are describing my little Chihuahua mix. He has large flaky dandruff, a dull, rough coat, very little belly hair, and was just diagnosed with crystals in his urine (and was of course recommended Science Diet by my vet.) I have tried about a dozen types of food for him with no positive results. Thanks so much; I really hope to hear from you about this. 

-Melissa


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## elenajas

HI Melissa,

Well, I fed Salvatore Wellness Core dog food. Wellness is a great company, and I found the Core line really has worked well for all our dogs, even fosters. However, there are LOTS of great foods out there. The SD won't help for the skin issues you are having, and really you dont need the SD for the crystals. Im assuming you have struvite crystals (if you dont know you should ask), and you can help your pup by choosing a food that keeps his urine acidic and adding things like berry balance, cranberry pills, and distilled water. I would consider the SD as an ultimate, very sad, last resort. I would suggest tryinig the Wellness Core, or other good foods (I can give you a list if you like). I would also suggest purchasing the berry balance, and considering some of the other tips I listed in my previous post about managing struvite crystals in urine. Not every food will work for every dog, but really, you just need to try a few and see. I would try the Wellness Core first, and if that doesnt help within a month or two (after transitioning slowly), then get back to me and I can help you find/pick another suitable food. I do have to check on the acidity of the Wellness Core, but I will do so and let you know. Good luck!!!


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## heat_2008

kimber039 said:


> I understand that not every dog needs to go on diet food but if a Vet tells us our dogs should or have to, then obviously our dogs are the ones. I know and trust my vet and I do what she tells me I should. I was saying the vet is not gonna lie to get money off a food bag.


Not necessarily, a lot of vets sell Science Diet because Hill's (the maker of Science Diet) pays them to sell it, payed for their training and/or facilities. My old vet gave my puppy a nice complementary Science Diet package thingy and said she highly recommended I feed my puppy Science Diet, same as they do with any new puppy or dog that comes to their office. Now given, if your dog has allergies to other foods or is having other food related issues Science Diet may help. BUT another hollistic food might just as well if not better. Science Diet is actually pretty bad food and I would not recommend it unless your dog throws up every other food you try. If your vet offers or tells you to switch to Science Diet for no apparent reason I would advise you respectfully decline. I feed my puppy Innova but it's expensive as hell so that might not be your first choice.


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## elenajas

Well, Innova is more expensive than say grocery brands, and a puppy does eat a lot, however we should point out that as an adult dog, feeding quality foods such as Innova appears to be more expensive, but is actually not much more. I did the math, and to feed the Wellness Core instead of say, Beneful, it cost me $5-$7 more a month and I am feeding 1 larger Jack Russell, a doxie/rat terrier mix, a Chi mix, and a Chihuahua. The bag is more expensive, but it lasts a LOT longer b/c the calories are higher and it is more nutrient dense, and therefore you feed less quantity. Therefore when my neighbor is going back to buy a 2nd or 3rd bag of beneful, I am still feeding the first bag. Therefore, the initial price is more expensive but overall it is not much more expensive. And many companies do make smaller bags if you cannot swing the higher price up front for a larger bag. Also, if you email the companies many will send you a sample and coupons.


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## lexilu

I just came back from my vet, and am quite upset. Lexi is 2 year old now and had begun peeing in the house - even right after I have walked her. I thought it was due to her breed mixture (cockapoo) and she was having behaviorial issues. She also pee's all night on her mat in her crate, and has been doing this for a while. Today, at her annual checkup, our vet did a urine check her urine and x-rayed her(there were lots of crystals). What actually causes this? She has been eating Innova for about a year, and only gets bottled water. Could it be from over feeding? I have bought a small bag of prescription Royal Canin SO, and Lexi will be on antibiotics for 2 weeks. If she needs to be on a special food for life, is there a good quality food that I can feed her and our Golden? He loves Innova, but has gained over 13 lbs since we switched them to it over a year ago.


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## spotted nikes

Make sure your bottled water is Distilled, not Spring water. Unless it is distilled, it has lots of minerals.


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## Kathyy

Both my dogs have had crystals in urine. Sassy really did, she had an UTI that needed to be treated. Max's urine sample got stale and formed crystals, a second sample spun inhouse showed no crystals.

There are a lot of different sorts of crystals. Unless you know which one is present you cannot treat the cause. Struvite crystals are phosphate based and usually caused by infection. When the infection is gone the unrine's pH will be normal and the crystals won't form. Oxalate crystals are formed due to a defect in the dog's metabolism and can be helped by eating foods low in oxalate [spinach is high for example] and drinking water low in mineral content. Then there are purine crystals and combination crystals.

It sounds like your dog has struvite crystals as you were sent home with antibiotics. Script food isn't important in treating this type of crystal. Treating the infection is. Take all the pills and go back for the follow up urine culture. Make sure she drinks plenty of water to keep the crystals flushed out. Sassy had to have two courses of antibiotics to get rid of the infection. We were lucky, it can take a long time to resolve this infection.

Have you read the article linked near the top of this thread to B-Naturals? Read that, good information.

If your dog is getting plump, why can you simply not feed him less?


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## elenajas

Innova is a good food, however you have to realize a few things. It is a good food--that means it is nutritionally much more dense than other low quality foods like those in the grocery store. Hence, you should be feeding less quantity. It is also higher in calories, so if you are feeding your dog what you used to feed of lower quality stuff, Im not surprised he has gained weight. You should be adjusting their food amount by how they are looking, if they are gaining, you should reduce. If they are losing or thin, then add more. When you feel your golden (or any dog) look at them from above and see if they look like a dog should (you can ask your vet or google for photos), from the side there should be a chest with a waist line that comes up as you go back. When you feel their ribs from above (run your hand down the rib cage) you should be able to feel the ribs but with a thin layer of fat over it. If you cant feel the ribs they are probably overweight. If you feel unsure, talk to you vet about weight and ask what weight your dog should be. The vet can tell you easily if you are a good weight, overweight, or underweight. If your golden is not underweight, and is still gaining you should be feeding him less. You can reduce slowly, and his stomach will adjust. Ask you vet where a good weight for him is. As for your dog with struvite crystals, Innova is a fine food. However, lots of things can cause crystals, and some dogs are easily helped by foods, and some are not. Most need at least some supplements. I would tell you that spring water has minerals just like tap water, so that isnt helping. You should use DISTILLED water. You should also get your dog on Cranberry pulls, and Berry Balance (by Solid Gold, check online or at store) as it has cranberry, asorbic acid, and marshmellow root--which are all conducive to good urinary health. You could also consider some vitamin C. These things will help. A dose of apple cider vinegar as a supplement (like a teaspoon or a few large drops) can help too. Food along is not enough. That "prescription" food you are trying now will "work"--but only in the sense that it will mask the problem, not fix it. I suggest strongly staying on the Innova, and adding the Berry Balance, Cranberry pills, Vitamin C, apple cider vinegar, and Distilled water. Also make sure your dog is getting enough water--for example an 8 pound dog needs a cup of water a day! So make sure your dog is drinking enough and make sure you are taking her out often enough--you don't want her to have to "hold it". Good luck!

I also wanted to add, that Innova is great, I also use Wellness Core, and therefore you could use EVO, or Nature's Variety. THey would all work well. 

A few more tips.
I would use the food, with the berry balance and 1 cranberry pill a day. I would add some water to the food (or buy the same brand canned to add more moisture and add that), to increase water intake. The more water they drink the better! I would add Apple Cider vinegar to their food or water, or use an eye dropper to put it in their mouth if they dislike the taste. I would also reduce quantity b/c overfeeding is never good, and high blood sugar never is a good thing! I would also add the Vitamin C. i would definitely not use the "prescription" foods as they mask the problem and symptoms instead of treating them. I would finish all antibiotics and start using distilled water. As things improve, you can always use the berry balance OR the cran pills. YOu can even try another supplement by Wysong later on. Some dogs use the Berry balance or cran pills for life. Some just need it for a while after to get their system back on track. It can't hurt to give a cranberry pill daily--I do so for mine as a preventative measure. The distilled water, you could stop using after a while if things go back to ok. 

For anyone feeding prescription food, it is true you may appear cured--but please note, that these food don't cure the problem, so much as they just mask the problem and the symptoms so you falsely believe you are ok. Stop eating the food, and the symptoms will come right back. Its better to get off that junk, buy healthy food, supplement as stated, and treat the problem.

Also, if you wanted to get really wild, you could buy pH strips and test their urine daily for pH--you want their urine to be acidic. You could also wipe them after peeing with soap and water.....but that may be going too far for some!

here is the wysong link http://www.wysong.net/products/pH-dog-cat-supplement.php


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## Thracian

> Make sure your bottled water is Distilled, not Spring water. Unless it is distilled, it has lots of minerals.


I wish my vet had told me this. I just came back from the store with several gallons of distilled water.



> It sounds like your dog has struvite crystals as you were sent home with antibiotics. Script food isn't important in treating this type of crystal. Treating the infection is. Take all the pills and go back for the follow up urine culture. Make sure she drinks plenty of water to keep the crystals flushed out. Sassy had to have two courses of antibiotics to get rid of the infection. We were lucky, it can take a long time to resolve this infection.


How do you find a vet who will do this? The two I've talked to suggested the diet would solve the problem. Any tips on finding the right vet for this condition?


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## lexilu

Thank you so much for your responses. It has given me alot of "food for thought". 

First thing I will do is switch to distilled water. I had never heard of crystals in urine - so I was kind of shocked to hear our dog has this. I have been researching since my post, and had found about the berry balance, and will begin to use that after we finish the round of antibiotics. I will switch to distilled water too. (that may even help the cockapoo's tear stains). And yes, I have been feeding them the same quantity of Innova as I had with the Eukanuba that we had switched from. He (the Golden) was pretty lean at 75 lbs, and now at 89, he is looking a bit wider. I will lower their portions, although I have put their food in a bin and don't have quanities to refer to. The Golden gets about 2 cups 2x daily, and the cockapoo gets about 2/3 cup 2x daily- and also tries to steal from her brother's bowl. I will lower the quantities, and exercise them more. 

I called the pet shop that I get the Innova from, and he told me to switch them both over to the Innova Senior formula. The Golden is 6 and the cockapoo is only 2. Does putting them both on a Senior formula sound ok to you guys? 

Thanks again for your advice - I look forward to your replies.


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## elenajas

At 2, I would say he is at least an adult, so he *could* do the senior food, but I would still choose to feed regular. I would still feel the younger dog the regular food. 6 really isnt "that" old, and I dont know that I would go to a senior food yet, granted larger dogs live shorter lives. I would check the Innova website and see if they talk about the ages suggested for their foods. The Innova is much more nutritionally dense (and a zillion times better) than the Eukanuba. The Innova is meat based, whereas the Euk is corn based. I would lower the amount you are feeding slowly, and see how it goes. If they appear really hungry you could always give them a few spoonfuls of low salt (or at least rinsed) green beans which are low calorie and filling and are often recommended for dog diets. You can also lessen the amount of green beans over time too. Dog's stomachs are like accordians and will adjust over time to the smaller amount. 

Good luck with the distilled water, you could even try cran pills while on the antibiotics although waiting is fine too. The distilled water, cran/berry balance, apple cider vinegar, and vitamin C are all good to try. And Cran pills are not very expensive to use forever as preventative.

Also, side note, but my dogs are small, and I was wondering how big the cockapoo was? For example, my Daisy is a larger JRT and weighs about 16-17 pounds. she gets 1/3 of a cup twice a day (so 2/3 of a cup total per day). For example, here are the calories for 3 foods (Innova and Evo are made by the same company). I feed the Wellness Core. But as you can see, they are similiar in calories for the most part. 

Innova 504 kcal/cup (5.6 oz = 1 cup)
Evo 537 kcal/cup (4.40 oz = 1 cup)
Wellness Core Per cup 430 cal 

You might want to consider switching from the Innova to the Evo, or if it is cheaper, the Wellness Core as there is some who think that a higher protein diet is better for the UTI prevention. You can also try the canned for extra moisture. Make sure you are getting LOTS of water! (higher protein is great, but the regular is great too--its really just a preference thing, but it is another thing to try if you still have issues). 

As far as finding a vet who is knowledgeable about canine nutrition, sadly, it is a slow thing with vets--some have come around and are becoming very knowledgeable about foods and nutrition, but many have not. I would call around vets to ask what foods they recommend, and what they sell. If they sell lots of Science diet or Hills, and recommend Euk or Grocery brands--well thats the kind of vet you already have. If they say oh we sell Innova, or Wellness or Evo, or something like that, you can bet they are more forward thinking. Also, if they are ok with a raw diet, it shows they have a good deal of nutritional training. So those are good questions to ask. (although with raw, some vets are still wary--not b/c of the diet--but b/c many pet owners think throwing down some raw meat is what raw is about--and it is actually a specific and measured diet of meat, organs, and bone and supplements, and if people dont know what they are doing they can have a mal nourished dog. So just keep that in mind.


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## BaileyBerger

*Most Struvite Crystals Caused By UTIs*

Bailey our second Leonberger was misdiagnosed with struvite crystals caused by a higher than normal urine pH. A urinalysis was performed and showed a higher than normal pH and struvite crystals. The vet was a newer one at the practice we've used for a long time. As a precaution, she gave Bailey a course of antibiotics. The vet didn't give anything for the high urine pH. 

After Bailey started urinating the same or worse than when he came home, every fifteen minutes to every hour, I requested another vet. The second vet diagnosed him with a condition found in some breeds where they have a higher than normal urine pH. This causes struvite crystals to form. She assumed that Bailey must have this because her dog has it.

Bailey was started on the treatment and we noticed a little improvement after a couple of days. Bailey could wait up to two hours most days.

Then I started reading online about struvite crystals. One site in particular was helpful, the Merck Vet Manual. It said that most of the time when there's a higher than normal urine pH and struvite crystals it's caused by an infection. Sometimes the infection can be subclinical and not show in a urinalysis.

I called the vet back and requested a second urinalysis. This time it showed a moderate amount of bacteria. I also said that I'd like to see Bailey stay on the antibiotics for at least three weeks (as per another article I found on the internet written by two tech vets). She agreed to do that. She also said that it's very possible Bailey had a subclinical urinary tract infection when the urinalysis showed no bacteria present.

After three weeks on antibiotics Bailey is urinating about every five hours. He'll have another urinalysis this week to make sure the infection is completely gone.

It's been a frustrating time for both Bailey and us. Despite his urinary problems during the last five months we've trained and socialized him. Hands down he's the friendliest dog at the dog park.

I remember the first vet telling us our puppy was manipulating us. I was shocked that she'd believed that a four to six month old puppy was capable of that. Yes Leonbergers are very intelligent and can problem solve. But manipulation? 

There was a mixed signal though. We learned that Bailey enjoyed lying on the front porch to cool off. We assumed he wanted to go out to relieve himself. Once we got that figured out and on the proper medication, our BaileyBerger started urinating more like a normal nine month old puppy. Now we can finally begin his housebreaking training.


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## koen8r

Hi everyone, 

I am new to the forum, and quite interested in your discussion. My husband and I have a 3 year old lab and a 4 year old lhasapoo. Our lab (Koen) eats the Euk lab food, and the lhasapoo (Star) eats nutro sensitive skin. We originally wanted to put Koen on Innova, but after 4 months of upset stomachs and serious diarrhea, we decided it was just to rich for his system. We also just found out that Star has crystals in her urine, and were, like others, instructed to feed her a Hills prescription food along with the antibiotics. 

Any thoughts on the Nutro food? I want our pups to eat a high quality food, but Koen didn't do well on the innova, so maybe there's another option - i know several others have been mentioned here. Are they as rich as the innova? We also considered Solid Gold brand (might have the name wrong). 

Thanks for all the knowledge everyone here shares !

Christa


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## elenajas

Hi Christa!

Ok, first off, Nutro is a terrible food. Eukanuba is bad just b/c it is a bag of corn and fillers and chemicals, but Nutro takes the cake. They have had many issues, and recently had problems b/c the level of the euthanasia drug (used for shelter dogs and cats) was too high in there food. Yes, it is legal to use euthanized dogs and cats in dog food. Go figure. Many dogs have become ill with Nutro, and I wouldnt trust them for one second. 

That being said, Innova is not a rich food. Many people get confused as to what rich means. Innova is a food based on meat, and species appropriate diet. However, changing to a new food can give many dogs diahhrea and upset tummies, and some are more sensitive than others. You should always transition your foods, (adding more of the new and less of the old slowly) and for some dogs, this can be done in a week, some need a month. Solid Gold makes a supplement to help with this, if you have big problems. Now imagine, if you ate corn exclusively for life and suddenly ate meat every meal--your tummy might not be so happy for a while too. So, you can try the Innova again if you want, but if youwould rather there are many other foods out there that might work as well if not better.

I would suggest Wellness, or Wellness Core. Both are excellent foods. Solid Gold is also a good food. Being a large breed, you should just check the levels of calcium on the bag to make sure it is less than 1.5. So, I would suggest either of those (or the Innova). Evo is also an excellent food as is Nature's Variety (make sure it is Natures variety as many have similiar names). I would transition very slowly and use the Solid gold powder if your dog is very sensitive. You can also add pure canned pumpkin (not pie filling!) a spoonful or two to the food or separate--as it works like pepto for dogs and they usually like the taste.

As for your dog with crystals, I would feed both dogs the same food. So try the Wellness Core (my first suggestion) and if they do well on it, good. if not, you could always just try the Wellness Core for your dog with the crystals (or innova) and try the others out for your dog with the sensitive tummy. I would read my previous posts about Berry balance, cranberry pills, vitamin C, distilled water, test strips (if you want to go that far), and how those prescription diets just mask the symptoms. I would rather have a healthy dog, than a dog with its symptoms just covered up. 

Also how much are you feeding the lab? Overfeeding is a natural cause for diahhrea. You would be feeding the lab LESS of the Innova than you did of the Euk or Nutro. Check and compare the calories....you are probably definitely over feeding the Lab with the Innova. 

good luck!


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## koen8r

Elenajas, 

Thank you so much for your detailed reply! We actually just got the final urinalysis results back, and it turns out that Star (the lhasapoo) does not have crystals in her urine, so the vet thinks she just has bladder stones and a bad UTI. She has been doing very well on the Nutro food thus far - it cleared her skin problems right up - but I have no interest in supporting a company with the practices you described. I do plan on switching both of our dogs to a better diet - either the Innova, or one of the others you mentioned. I thought only the grocery brands did stuff like that !

When we originally put Koen on the Innova, we switched him over very slowly, mixing his old food ( I think it was science diet) in at a decreasing ratio for over a month, but he just never got used to the Innova. He was on it for at least 4 months, and when we switched him from that to the Euk, the diarrhea cleared up immediately. I'm not sure what the issue was with it. I know it was not an overfeeding issue, as we were feeding the amount directed, and he is by nature a picky eater, often leaving some food uneaten (definitely NOT the typical lab  ).

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Christa


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## elenajas

Christa,

Im glad to hear Star doesn't have crystals. However, if Star does have problems clearing up the UTI and gets reoccuring ones, the same stuff can be used to prevent and help clear utis. Even people take cranberry pills etc to help with urinary tract health and to prevent UTIs. So you could do the berry balance, or cran pills if you have issues with it later on or they come back (or have a hard time clearing up). Some dogs, and people are more susceptible to UTIs. Sometimes things like Diabetes can be an underlying disease, but that is not always the case. 

As for the lab, well it could also just be say and allergy or food intolerance to some ingredient in the Innova that your lab's tummy just didnt like. Think about people who are lactose intolerant for example and how their system causes chronic diahrrea etc for them when they eat something milk related. I would try other brands like the Wellness Core, Wellness, or Solid Gold, Natures Variety, or Evo. Luckily you have a lot of great brands and formulas to choose from. Sometimes also, the bag is wrong--I mean it is a good guide--but every dog is different, and has different metabolisms etc. So, I would take more of the cue from how much your dog eats (since you say he leaves some) and how he is looking/feeling. Your vet can always help you assess over time if he is gaining/losing too much or is just right. I would forgo the Innova in that case for the lab, and try something else. In fact, some of those brands even have more unique protein sources. For example, maybe the food you fed before was Lamb based with only a little chicken, and the Innova was the chicken based food and he has a chicken intolerance or allergy. That could do it easily! So, I would try to find a food that has similiar protein sources to the food he was ok on (but it is junk) and so if it was lamb try to pick a new lamb food from the ones listed. Or if it was chicken, then pick a chicken one. Worst case you can always try some new and unique protein sources (some dogs have lots of allergies) and therefore unique proteins like turkey, red meat, rabbit, venison etc. are all good options. Lastly, if you find your lab is having issues with many foods, Wellness makes a very simple food for dogs with allergies and sensitive tummies. The Wellness Simple Solutions has like 3 ingredients, and is great to help figure out what you are allergic to (and what you can eat), and it is a simple food great for those with tummy issues. It comes in 2 flavors. Also California Naturals isa good allergy food as well. It may not be an allergy per se, but allergy foods are made more simply and with less ingredients and if you have a sensitive tummy it makes sense that that would help. You can also check the level of grain and compare it to the level of grain in the Innova. some dogs do better with grain inclusive foods (and with the same levels) and other dogs do better on grain free foods. The Evo and Wellness Core are grain free (I find my dogs do great on them), and the Innova and regular Wellness for example, are grain inclusive. So you have a lot of options.

Im with you on the Nutro food issues. I wouldnt support them (and just note they are having and FDA issue right now), and for the same reason i wouldnt support grocery brands, nor Merrick. 

Good luck! 
Also, try that Solid gold transition powder and the canned pure pumpkin--it is pepto for dogs and works for both diahhrea and constipation.


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## puppymomma

elenajas said:


> It isn't that the vet is trying to get more money or not, it is often that some vets are becoming more versed in canine nutrition, and some are not. The ones who are not, often still use the Hills and Science diet foods as fixes. However, these foods often can mask other illnesses or problems, and are not really things any dog should be eating as they are full of corn, filler, and rarely any meat.
> 
> For crystals it depends what kind of crystals you have. If you have struvite crystals then you can help control it with food. You can also add supplements like Berry Balance to help or cranberry pills. Many dog owners control struvite crystals with either a raw diet, or a kibble diet. (Ill talk about struvite b/c they are the most common type, and calcium oxalate crystals cannot easily be controlled by diet except to avoid foods high in oxalate). Struvites form in alkaline urine, so to prevent you need to keep the pH of the urine more on the acidic side. You should choose a kibble accordingly--if you need help with that you can feel free to ask.
> 
> Some people also use Ester C (vitamin C), apple cider vinegar, and "tinkle tonic" to help. Often people buy pH strips so they can test the urine and make sure it is staying on the acidic side. Also, lots of fluids is important daily to keep the system flushed and moving. Some people also use a solution of water and apple cider vinegar to cleanse the pee area on the pup as well as often crystals often come with infections, like UTIs and bladder infections.
> 
> Basically, you don't need that Hills food, to be honest it is overpriced corn in a bag. And you can get a good kibble that will keep your urine acidic that is actually a healthy food. More and more vets are becoming interested in the newest stuff on nutrition, and less and less are recommending the HIlls or SD. I would suggest a kibble that will keep you acidic, lots of water (you can add it to the kibble if it helps them drink, or a tiny drop of low sodium meat broth to the water if they dont like to drink), Berry Balance (and the ACV if you like) and pH test strips. You can really manage it this way, i know TONS of dogs who have, and who have stayed off antibiotics and struvite free.
> 
> I know it is stressfull! Good luck!
> 
> 
> KdTurngreen:
> Are you only feeding rice and veggies? I assume you are also feeding all the dogs the lamb kibble as well, or the vet told you how to supplement a home cooked diet? Just rice and veggies (in case someone reading your post misunderstood) is not a complete diet for a dog, and is lacking important things like calcium and phosphorus to just name a few. Are you doing a home cooked diet with all the supplements?


My 17 month old rescue has BOTH kinds of crystals in her urine. I detest the prescription foods and have recently changed her to Verus (weight management, both of my dogs are on it - lamb is the protein base). I've looked through my holistic pet health books and I can't find anything on this diagnosis. I saw your reply that I can give her cranberry and some other things, but that was only for one type of crystal. Do you know of anything I can do for the other type?


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## flipgirl

A dog can have struvite crystals and still be okay. When an infection is present, however, the crystals can stick to the bladder wall and stick to each other, making it painful for the dog and creating bladder stones. 

To dissolve the crystals, you have to restrict certain minerals. Magnesium, phosphorus and protein must be restricted to less than 0.02%, 0.1% and 8% on a dry matter basis respectively. You're looking for a urine specific gravity of 1.020 and a ph of 5.9-6.1 to dissolve the crystals. To prevent, magnesium, phosphorus and protein should be restricted to 0.04 to 0.1 %, less than 0.6 % and less than 25%. The ph of urine should be 6.2 to 6.4. This is what I read in the book, 'Clinical Nutrition for Small Animals" at the animal hospital where I work. My dog has struvite cyrstals as well. The one vet wanted me to feed her Royal CAnin Urinary SO, another vet said Hill's C/D and yet another vet said I only needed to give her the antibiotics to eliminate the infection and hence the crystals. I wanted him to write me a prescription for Struvatrol, a food by Wysong that is for struvite crystals but he said wait until the antibiotics are done and the second urinalysis is done. 

I feed premade raw patties and am currently adding a probiotic (because she is on antibiotics and will continue the probiotics for 2 weeks after), Wysong's Biotic PH- (which is supposed to acidify her urine) and I also put some water in her food to increase her water intake. It's only been a week since she was diagnosed so I'll see in another week what the results are. I refuse to feed Hill's S/D or the Urinary SO. The S/d is high in salt to encourage drinking and so does the SO but both have no meat. Why add salt if she migh have problems with her kidneys? The Wysong has meat in it (yes a novel idea) but also herbs that help 'clean out' the urinary tract (uva ursi, dandelion are two examples) - I just have to get a prescription = I don't know how expensive it is but I'm sure it's not cheap. But better than introducing newer problems from feeding the Hills or RC garbage. I'm thinking of going to a holistic vet for a second (actually a fourth) opinion but her fee is outrageous... hopefully, what I'm doing right now for her will rid the crystals. According to the 'Clinical Nutrition for Small Animals" book, it takes an average of 3.5 months to fully eliminate crystals....wonderful. It also depends on if the crystals were clumped or single. Single are easier to eliminate. Also, recurrence is probable if an infection with urease positive bacterium occurs in as little as 2 weeks after the first infection is cleared. Urease positive bacteria (E. coli, staphylococci) are bacteria which can digest urea, an enzyme which is produced as the body breaks down proteins.


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## 2dogday

I'm wondering about a water filter. We have a filtered water dispenser connected to the fridge and also are in a high mineral area with our regular water. Some mornings, the water from the regular faucet smells bad. I'm going to start using the fridge water for the dogs. i hate the thought of crystals or UTI's to deal with


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## Kathyy

That is a good idea. There is a diet designed to eliminate oxalate crystals and stones and it uses distilled water to limit minerals taken in by the dog. Fuzzer Food. Restrict oxalate intake, use distilled water and use specific mineral supplements. Not hard for dog or human to handle.

Flipgirl, great information. Thanks. I do wonder about the protein though. I KNOW that my old girl with chronic kidney disease needs more high quality protein than a healthy adult dog but didn't know that about dogs with 'just' crystals.


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## lexilu

I posted about 3 weeks ago about Lexi having crystals - well after her first round of antibiotics and 3 weeks of Royal Canis, she still has crystals. And her PH is still 7.5. The good news is that she has stopped peeing in the house and her bed. The bad news - I now have another Rx for Hills S/O, and a different antibiotic. I've switched her to distilled water. I was told by our vet not to give her the Innova at all (Lexi sneaks kibble from her brother's bowl - I know that's no big deal, but the vet thinks it is). 

I was going to add cranberry pills or berry balance after our first round of antibiotics - but now that she is going on the 2nd batch, I hesitate. Is is ok to include it while on antibiotics? And what strength cranberry pill? Our healthfood store had cranberry concentrate, cranberry pills, cranberry extract, and I don't want to give her the wrong thing.


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## cshellenberger

Yes, the supplements are fine to give with the antibiotics. Have you tried a raw diet or Home cooked? 

Honestly, the Royal Canine is JUST as bad as S/D. I strongly recommend getting a different food that is good for the Crystals as others here have suggested.


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## lexilu

I am going to a holistic pet food store today to see what my food options are. Person seems very knowledgable, when I called on phone.


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## cshellenberger

Good idea Lexi, often Holistic medicine works wonders when paired up with sensible western medicine. You might ask her about the name of a vet that believes in using both while you're there. One of the reasons I love my vet is that he's open to using both holistic and traditional medicine.


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## StellaLucyDesi

Hi! Stella recently had a UTI with struvite crystals. I feel it was caused by her not drinking enough water and eating a very high protein food (Orijen Sr.). I'm not blaming the food at all. But I didn't realize about the "not drinking enough water" soon enough. Anyway.....She was put on an antibiotic and my vet wanted her to go on Royal Canin SO. I didn't want her on this food, so....I did some research. I found out about some foods that might be okay for a dog with urinary problems are:

Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy
Innove Sr. or Lowfat (however, the protein is still too low IMO)
Solid Gold Holistic Blendz (again, protein too low)
Flint River Ranch Trout or Lamb & Rice 
Cal. Nat. Herring & Sweet Pot.

In fact, most senior & low-fat foods do have lower phosphorus, magnesium percentages but they also have a very low protein percentage. You can add some can food or fresh chicken to up the protein levels and also add plenty of distilled or filtered water.

I decided to use the Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy combined with EPHS chicken can food as well as some other can foods for variety. And plenty of water mixed in! I also ordered Solid Gold's Berry Balance and put her on that as well. She also gets another supplement called Wholistic Pets Canine Complete Joint Mobility. It contains enzymes, probiotics, vits., glucosamine, chond., MSM. All organic and natural. I also got some PH strips and test her urine often. She has maintained a neutral PH. 

The UTI is gone and she doing fine now. I am keeping her on the supplements. I may go back to the Orijen Sr. and just add alot of water and can food. But the Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy is a great food and I just might stay with it. Good luck...the key IMHO is water, and lots of it. Lower phosphorus, magnesium levels and good supplements!


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## lexilu

Just came back from 3 different stores- a bit more confused then before, but maybe on the right track. The holistic store suggested Orijen (42% protein )or Merrick B/G (32% protein) for the golden and Eagle Pack Holistic Select Chicken (canned) for the struvit crystal pup. And a Probiotic /Enzyme thing. I bought the Orijen, the canned EPHS, and the probiotic stuff, and a couple of cranberry bones - not cheap!

So my hubby then told me if she's got a UTI or crystals, maybe her kidneys are compromised, and a high protein diet may be a problem. 

I went to a 2nd store (and a third), and bought Wellness Core (reduced fat) with 32% protein. The Innova that they currently eat has about 24%. I'm confused.

I also agree that water is the key issue for Lexi. I'm thinking about soaking kibble in water overnight in the fridge and adding some of the EPHS, to it for added water. 

So here are my questions:
1. Which one should I return?
2. What is the desired protein percentage? 
3. Would increasing protein cause any problems?
4. Are kidneys involved with crystals?

It's amazing how stupid I feel, so your help is really appreciated. Thank you ,
Judy


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## lexilu

well the Golden made the decision for me, when I offered him both foods. Orijen won hands down.


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## Snuggles

What is wrong with Royal Canine? I think that is the prescription dog food that our dog is on?


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## StellaLucyDesi

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with Royal Canin SO. In fact, it probably does what it claims to do (dissolve crystals), but (and this is the key) IMHO I feel the ingredients used are far inferior to other foods. The meat content is way down in the list of ingredients. It is preservied naturally (this is the only positive I'll give it, however). I did buy a bag....when I opened it, it smelled like "corn nuts" (a snack I used to see when I was a kid). Pure corn! It's even yellowy in color! I just couldn't bring myself to feed this to Stella. Now, if it were a matter of life or death, then we'd talk! Well, I did research to see if there was another route I could go with Stella. I went with a lower to moderate protein food that has lower ph and way better ingredients (Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy dry) combined with a wet food (EPHS chicken as well as other brand varieties), Solid Gold Berry Balance, a supplement called Wholistic Canine Complete Joint Mobility (this has enyzymes/probiotics, vits., skin "stuff", glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM) all mixed with water. And another thing....remember WATER, WATER, and more WATER!


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## cshellenberger

Snuggles said:


> What is wrong with Royal Canine? I think that is the prescription dog food that our dog is on?



RC is FULL of corn, soy and by products, all inferior ingredients, for what you pay you could be feeding your dog a MUCH better food.


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## flipgirl

Lexilu, I wonder why your vet wanted you to stay away from Innova...because then you wouldn't buy their prescription food or he or she has veritable knowledge of Innnova's ingredients and why they wouldn't be helpful? Only about one of the vets at the animal hospital where I work is vaguely aware of other premium foods.

Snuggles, RC Urinary SO does the job in terms of helping dissolve crystals but I was shocked that it had no meat in it. Ok, it has pork by-products but what is that? The rest is corn, corn gluten, brewers' rice etc. But many people buy it. And what kills me is, Royal Canin has raised the price of this food multiple times in the past few months. In three months, the price of a 4 kg bag went from $70 to $80! I guess corn and its gluten have gone up in price or you're paying for the two brand names, since Royal Canin and Medi-cal have merged.


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## MegaMuttMom

Snuggles said:


> What is wrong with Royal Canine? I think that is the prescription dog food that our dog is on?


My vet told me to put Cherokee on this when he had struvite crystals in his urine, and he told me he would have to be on it FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE! Well, Cherokee itches when he eats corn so, I got a second opinion form another vet who said, not to worry, the crystals aren't hurting him. I was told to increase water, which I do by adding it to his kibble. The crystals went away on their own.

I think I already said all this earlier but, I often repeat myself LOL.


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## lexilu

flipgirl said:


> Lexilu, I wonder why your vet wanted you to stay away from Innova...because then you wouldn't buy their prescription food or he or she has veritable knowledge of Innnova's ingredients and why they wouldn't be helpful? Only about one of the vets at the animal hospital where I work is vaguely aware of other premium foods.


FlipGirl - I don't really know - I had assumed it was because Lexi's been eating Innova for over a year, and it hasn't helped the crystals, so if it's not helping, switch foods. Don't think she's aware of premium foods, as she feeds Hills to her own dog. 

So I've switched from Innova - now feeding Eagle Pack chicken (wet) and Orijen kibble. She's still not drinking but that wet food sure is wet, so with the antibiotics and this approach, I hope it works. Also, I'm under the impression that the crystals are common and may not be a cause for concern, but it does concern me cause I dont want them to turn to stones and require surgery.


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## LibertiSmith

Petlovr said:


> My vet has told me that my 1 1/2 yr old has crystals in her urine and wants me to buy dog food from them. Is that really going to help or do they just want more money? Also does anyone have a dog that leaks urine ? My vet put her on Proin, and he said IF this works she'll have to be on it for the rest of her life. I just hate the thought of having to give her this medication, so many side effects...


My 9 year old cat had crystals in the urine, blockage. YES, the food really works and helps. Yes, it is a bit more expensive but it is worth it in the end. O'Ryan, my cat, wasnt put on any medication. What they did was go in, clean out his kidneys, flushed the crystals, and now he is on S&D diet food for blockage. The surgery was a bit expensive, $500.00, but I would so rather spend $30 on his cat food, then have to take him in constantly. And, if it is bad enough, or they cant catch it in time...it is very sad. I know O'Ryan is not a dog but I hope this helps!


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## StellaLucyDesi

Just remember that Orijen is pretty high in protein, so drinking water or using can food and water mixed in is important. Stella was eating Orijen Sr. dry only and not drinking enough (it didn't occur to me until she came down with a UTI ). Now she is getting Eagle Pack Holistic Select dry (sometimes I mix Orijen Sr. in with it), EPHS can chicken mixed with water. I also use Solid Gold Berry Balance. Maybe this is something you could try. Or some other cranberry supplement. IMO water is key! It's important to use either filtered or distilled water. After her round of antibiotics for the UTI, Stella's urine was retested and she had a neutral PH. She still had a few crystals, tho'. My vet said that this is okay if she isn't exhibiting symptoms (like straining, blood, dribbling etc.) I did buy a bag of the SO food, but decided not to feed it. Stella is doing fine now. I will continue to use the Berry Balance and I also have PH test strips that I ordered from Solid Gold. I test her urine often. She is maintaining a 6-7 PH with 7 being neutral. I've not noticed any symptoms either. I hope this helps!


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## kerplunk105

I adopted my German Shorthaired Pointer puppy in January. She was around 11 weeks old when I got her. The place she came from was not very clean. Ever since I have had her, she's had urinary issues. At first, I just assumed it was b/c she was young. She is 6 months old now and still having issues.

She wants to drink of water, all the time. When I take her for a walk, either on or off lead, she pee's a lot-way more then a healthy dog should. She will go pee outside, I will bring her in and sometimes 15 minutes later she will either pee on the carpet or need to go out again. However, she can hold it from 11pm-7am out of her crate and never have an accident. I limit her water after 8pm. 

She is crated during the day when I'm not home. I have family that is home, and they let her out during the day. Even then, she sometimes has accidents, though this has cut down a lot in the past month. 

She has been to two vets. She got a culture and sensivity test done at the first one, and it came back that her ph was a little high. She was given a round of clavamox for 14 days. I decided to switch vets, the second vet noticed that her vulva was quite recessed and thinks this may be part of the issue. She is not spayed yet.

I guess I just want any suggestions or input about what might be going on with her.


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## Snuggles

Yee gad. Now I am concerned. This dog we have is a very fussy eater. We tried every thing that was decent on the market for her to eat. Finally had to give her that food that the guy from "Family" started. It was soft and I hated it but it was all she would eat. Now for some crazy reason she eats this Royal Canin stuff. She had bladder stones and the biopsy showed vavious kinds of stuff in the stone. When he showed me it, I was shocked that something that big was in her tiny body. Anyway, this is what they put her on. I think it is under $20 for a smaller bag.


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## joyfulsoul50

Thank you all for your sharing of experiences and knowledge. I wish I'd read this awhile ago My 16 month old Bichon has had up and down urgencies and accidents for awhile--started peeing in her crate also. She doesn't drink much--unless she's been playing--then she has to go out often--or she has accidents. I see how upset she is about accidents--so, finally got urinalysis done a few weeks back--but no clear direction from the vet--yes, struvite crystals were present. Today we pushed for more of a plan and by ultrasound--she found there were a lot of crystals--no stones. So, I came home with a case of s/d--canned and 10 days of antibiotics. It sounds like she will need more antibiotics from what the postings indicate. I obviously will look for other foods, given what I've read here. I did get a tip from someone about cranberry pills not long ago--but they seemed to upset her stomach--even when I split the capsule into 2 (I put half into an empty capsule) and even into 3rds. (She didn't play much, wanted to be held and wouldn't eat for a long time). I've also started to wet her food to increase her water intake and will switch to filtered water (does anyone know if the Brita filter is adequate?) because we do have lots of minerals in the water here. I will make note of all the suggestions and begin to try them. I also had stopped the high protein treats (liver and peanut butter) mid-day when she wasn't drinking with them and then going back in her crate. Would love any feedback on the sensitivity to the cranberry capsules and the Brita filter. Thanks so much!


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## Hound

Finding crystals in your dog’s urine might just be a sign of canine urolithiasis. Observe other symptoms such as depression, loss of appetite, allusion to pain, vomiting, general weakness and bloody urine. This illness means that your dog is having problems in excreting urine due to irritants in the urinary tract. While there are other terms to describe this sickness, the general verdict should be to consult the vet as soon as possible.


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## boubou64

previous post:
Our 5 year old Sheltie was licking herself a lot. After close inspection, we decided to bring her to the vet ( with a urine sample). She was diagnosed with UTI, her urine contained a lot of crystal oxalate, white blood cells but no blood cell at all. She was put on antibiotics and Xrays where taken. The vet recommend that the stone be removed surgically as his suspicion is crystal oxalate stone according to the urinalysis. He also put her on Royal Canin urinary S/O diet.
Our concern is: Our sheltie has no other signs or symptoms. She drinks, eat, plays, urinate normally. 
Do we really need to put her through major surgery or should we do the diet, and wait and see?

Follow up
we had another set of xrays taken and the vet recommended the removal of the stone ( he tought he saw a stone)There were NO stones in her bladder, what they thought was a stone on the xrays was a mucosal fold, like hyperplasia Vet says that the crystal caused that from all the irritation they were causing. He irrigated her bladder really well, and flushed all the crystals out of there. He said we did the right thing going ahead with surgery (if it had been his dog, that's what he would have done) because he got to flush the bladder getting rid of the crystals, something that might have not been entirely possible with diet alone. Now that she's on the diet, this will prevent any future formation of stones or further crystals hopefully With this surgery, we probably prevented stones.
He said if we didn't do the surgery we would have spent much more money chasing after something that wasn't even there in the first place. Even if we had done the ultrasound, and they wouldn't have seen a stone that wasn't there, his recommendation would still have been exploratory surgery.

bottom line, we could have not done it and she would have been fine except that the crystals irritating her vulva would have taken much much longer to flush or not flush at all.
After all this.... did we do the right thing? we only followed our vets trusted advice. I'm not at all sure about all of this now.



2dogday said:


> I'm wondering about a water filter. We have a filtered water dispenser connected to the fridge and also are in a high mineral area with our regular water. Some mornings, the water from the regular faucet smells bad. I'm going to start using the fridge water for the dogs. i hate the thought of crystals or UTI's to deal with


we wondered about the water behing the cause of our dog's crystal oxalate too. We give her softened water. could that contribute to it?
the well water without the softner is too hard. Should we just give her bottled water?



cshellenberger said:


> RC is FULL of corn, soy and by products, all inferior ingredients, for what you pay you could be feeding your dog a MUCH better food.


I live in Ontario Canada
which better food would you recommend for crystal oxalate?


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## lexilu

joyfulsoul50 said:


> .. I see how upset she is about accidents--so, finally got urinalysis done a few weeks back--but no clear direction from the vet--yes, struvite crystals were present. Today we pushed for more of a plan and by ultrasound--she found there were a lot of crystals--no stones. !


It's been awhile since we have all posted about this topic - just wanted to know how all was going with your pup's struvite crystals, and to give an update on Lexi. After two rounds of antibiotics, and a couple of food changes, I can finally say that she is crystal-free at our latest urinalysis. Here's what I am doing. Switched to Wellnes Core (low fat), and add about 1/8+ cup water and a couple tablespoons of Eagle Pack Holistic Select canned food (more moisture). Not sure if this is a permanent solution, but since Lexi doesn't drink water - at least I know she's getting some H2O this way


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## Kathyy

Glad she is doing fine. I found this little calculator online and make sure I put this much water in Sassy daily.http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/h2o.htm It helps a lot. I did have to move to three meals a day as she cannot hold all that water in her stomach in only two meals!


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## violadivah

Hi Everyone,
I am new to this forum so please excuse any ignorance. I have become worried for my Jack Russell as after urinating throughout the house, multiple times I took him to vet and it appears he has a UTI and crystals in his Urine!

He has a high number Calcium Phosphate & Calcium Oxalate crystals. I was told he must follow a regimented diet of Hill's S/D Prescription Food. I have been researching non-stop and many seem to disprove this type of food and use Wellness Core or similar.

He is on antibiotics now for the infection and I guess I will start to use this food unless I hear a similar experience that has improved. 

I am new and any advice would be greatly appreciated...


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## LindaL

Hello,
I'm new here and found this forum while trying to figure out the whole issue with struvite crystals. I see the last post was in October, I hope someone is around who has some advice---I'm frantic trying to find an answer. I've read so much online that everything seems to be conflicting, and now I'm so confused I don't know which way to go.

I rescued my 8 year old female Maltese in early December and the (insert nasty word ) "owner" sent her to me along with a bladder stone the size of a small chicken egg. Apparently she was treated for a bladder infection in July before the stone was discovered in October. My "Annie" had it removed but as far as I know was put back on regular dry food. I took her to my Vet and he put her on antibiotics for 10 days and Royal Canin SO food. Like someone else here, he says she needs to stay on it for the rest of her life to keep crystals from forming.

After reading through these posts, I'm concerned about the food. The protein level is 14%, chicken by-products and egg. To me it smells chemical and like grain. She seems "off" but I can't figure out exactly what it is. Her coat is coarse, dull, and keeps breaking off and she keeps licking, chewing, and pulling chunks of hair around her genitals. She was used as a breeder and her female parts are very distended. The Vet said she was OK, just overused as a breeder.

Over the last 40 years we have had many dogs and cats, and the dogs were all fed generic grocery store dry food. They all lived to ripe old age and were healthy with good teeth. Reading the posts on the Internet it sounds pretty amazing---guess we were lucky.

Annie is my first "small" dog, our last was 120 pounds, so this is a new experience for me all the way around!  Maybe I worry too much, but she just doesn't seem "on." We have a large back yard and at least twice a day we run all over the yard. She runs so fast she's a white streak and ends up winded (as she should!), so I think she's getting the exercise she needs. She seems to drink about 1/2-3/4 cup of water a day.

I'm thinking I need to change her food, the last couple days she has cut way back on her eating. I feed her 1 cup a day, half in AM and half in PM. She's picky and doesn't like any snacks. She did like "PLAIN" Milkbones, but now doesn't want those either.

Before I change the food, I want to test the pH of her urine to see if it is acidic like I was told it should be---but where do you find the pH strips (other than online)? The pharmacies used to carry them but none around me do anymore. Should I be checking it?

Her "poop" is also very hard and she strains to pass it--reminds me at times of a rabbit. I give her raw pumpkin several times a week with a little plain yogurt mixed in (she won't eat the pumpkin plain). It seems to help a little.

PLEASE help, I'm really worried about her and not sure what to do. Is there a consensus on what the best food is to prevent the crystals? Where do I find the test strips?

Sorry to jump in with problems without introducing, but to me this is like having a new baby in the house with no experience. Not sure what to do or where to begin. I'm not able to make her food, I'm disabled and can hardly cook for myself.

I would be SO grateful for *anything* that would make this less confusing. I need some answers. I've grown _*so *_fond of her already I don't want to do anything that might make things worse.

Can anyone help? I'm lost!

Thanks, I'm sure you must all know how I'm feeling---she's become my baby 

Most Gratefully,
Linda L


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## Snuggles

We feeds ours Royal Canin Urinanary which I imagine is what yours is on. She has not had any hair problems or anything. Of course sometimes she sneaks the other dogs food but more often the other dog eats hers.

We also wondered about the cheaper dogs foods that we have fed dogs in the past. These dogs were all right also and lived to about thirteen. Maybe it is a small dog thing, I don't know.


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## LindaL

Thanks, how long has your dog been on it? Most of what I have read doesn't give it a very positive rating.

Me thinks there is too much information out there . I know I should just trust my Vet, but being "fussy" about food has never been an issue. The last thing I need though is a huge bill for another stone removal---and apparently once they have them they are prone to more.

From what I was able to gleen from reading, the protein in food for dogs with crystals should be between 18% and 25%---that seems like a big range, and the RC is at 14%.

I just want to start having fun with her and stop worrying so much .

Thanks again, I hope others who are dealing with this will share their experiences, too. Thanks also for having this forum---I learned more here than anywhere else I looked!

Puppy Hugs,
Linda L


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## Snuggles

My dog has been on it a little over a year. She is the smaller dog in my pictures.


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## elenajas

THIS post is for LindaL, Lexilu, Joyfulsoul, and other STRUVITE posters~

Dear Lexilu,
Im glad to here that your regimen is working. An idea to get your dog to drink (my foster refused to drink too), is to put the water --if you feed twice a day then use half her daily water requirement--in with her dry kibble (but not if she doesnt eat it right away--and if she doesnt you should work on that)--and that way she is forced to drink the water to get to the kibble. dogs arent too good at bobbing for kibble, and it forces them to drink the water to reach the kibble. Its a neat trick. That or you can entice her with a little bit of low sodium broth in some water---always enticing. It sounds like you are doing the water in the food thing already--but feel free too split up and give her the full requirement of water she needs. If you think it is too much, then feed her 3 times a day so you can have water in each meal. The Core is an excellent food, and the wet is another great way to get a little extra moisture in them. You can always add a cranberry pill too if you are worried--and yes, that IS a permanent solution, it may need tweaking over time, but you can always try the cran pills, the berry balance (solid gold supplement), or distilled water in the future if you have problems. 

Dear Joyfulsoul,

Brita is NOT the same as distilled water. It is slightly better than tap, but not the same as distilled. She may just have a sensitivity to the cran pills. Are you feeding them after food or on an empty stomach? id try with food. if that doesnt work, try a different brand. Sometimes people are sensitive to the vehicle the meds/vitamins are in--for example One a Day vitamins makes me throw up, but im fine on centrum. If that doesnnt work, try the berry balance from Solid gold. 

Dear LindaL,

LindaL, and other posters, this is long, and covers food like RC and Linda's issues, but I ask you to read the whole thing, it will help. 

First things first, you have a Maltese, which unless it is mixed with something large is a small dog. 1 cup a day is far too much food, and overfeeding inherently causes problems--such as constipation, and the straining you are talking about. The pumpkin is helping b/c it works as a fix all for constipation and diahrrea but still, you can use the pumpkin, but your first problem is over feeding. 

I assume you are feeding the Royal Canin Urinary SO 14 food. The first thing that strikes me is that this food is recommended for dogs with struvite and oxalate issues--which are two very different kinds of crystals and which have two very different treatments. There is nothing "wrong" with Royal Canin food, just as there is nothing "wrong" with grocery brands. However, think of it in people terms, some people have good genes and can eat junk and smoke and drink and live till they are 102. Others who don't have such great genes are greatly effected by diet, and become ill, their health suffers, they get diabetes, or other diseases that shorten and affect not only their appearance, but their lifespan and the ailments they develop as they age. Same with dogs. For example, my Daisy is a JRT, she ate grocery before I got her, and even after switching to a better quality food she didnt appear much different. She was always soft, and looked muscular. She did have smaller poops, no more eye gunk, and maybe a tiny bit more sheen, but overall, not much difference on the outside. Meanwhile, my Salvatore, who I adopted came to me with dull dry coarse fur, and dry flaky skin that had him covered in dandruff. His coat was so rough the vet tech said to me, oh he can't have any min pin in him, he is too rough and coarse, min pins are shiny. He also had no belly fur. Well, 3 weeks after being switched to a better quality food, he not only grew in a thick coat of belly fur, but his coat was smooth, silky, soft, and dandruff free--and a few months later the same vet tech blew me away when she said "oh is he mixed with min pin." So, there you have it, Daisy has great genes, and isnt much affected on the outside, and Sal was. But the outside isnt really the issue--the inside is. The outside is merely the often only indicator of health that we have. We dont know what is going on inside, but the indications I saw in Sal showed me that there is a difference. 

Now, does this mean that your grocery food, or Royal Canin are bad foods, or going to hurt your dog? No, not necessarily. Just like some people can smoke till they are 90 and be fine and others can get lung cancer when they never were a smoker. A lot is about genes. I feed a better quality food b/c I feel that while I cannot change their genes, I can do something about what I put into them. Its that saying, crap in, crap out--and you are what you eat. Dogs are oportunistic carnivores, and should be eating a meat heavy diet. If you look at a grocery brand, or Royal Canin, you will see usually chicken listed first, and then lots of grains and things like corn. Well, that is the list BEFORE they take the water out, done by weight. Chicken before it is dehydrated has a lot of water, and therefore is heavy. when you take the water out, the chicken drops way down on the list, usually to #5 or #6, and that essentially means that the food is a corn based food with a little chicken in it. Corn was never a food that dogs were meant to eat. If you ran out of food for your dog, what would you think to cook him---a piece of chicken or open a can of corn? Corn is also an extremely common allergen for dogs, and can cause the itching and scratching some complain of. So, it isnt that these are terrible foods, but that they are made not really for what dogs were meant to eat. That being said, any food is better than no food and your dog no matter what food you feed is lucky to have a loving home. 

Now there are foods on the market that are meat based, and which have no corn at all. These are the foods I used when I saw the difference in Sal. Some are more expensive, but there are also some middle ground foods that are not very expensive at all. Additionally, you feed less quantity of these foods than you do of the grocery brands as it is more densly packed with nutrition, so while you might be buying your second bag of grocery, Ill still be on my first of the other stuff. What you feed your dog is up to you. 

On to LindaL's problem specifically, Linda besides feeding too much, you are feeding Royal Canin (RC) with little good results. Sounds like your maltese, is like my Sal. And while overbreeding can take it out of a dog and prematurely age them, older dogs can still look amazing, have soft shiny coats, and dont have to be dull and coarse. Clearly RC isnt working for you, and while it may be a "urinary food", I believe it is not really needed. the RC says to feed 3/4 cup- 1 1/3 cup a day for 5-10 lbs. I dont know how much your maltese weighs, but I do know she is 8years old and doesn't need as many calories as say a 2 year old would. The RC claims to have extra moisture and things support making the urine acidic--which is great, but giving your dog extra liquid and good food would do the same thing. 

LindaL, i dont know where you can find urine pH strips locally, it depends where you live and who carries what there. Id suggest going online and getting some. If you read my previous posts you can see that there are ways to manage struvite crystals effectively without "prescription" foods. Sadly, the presription foods like RC and Science diet are mostly the same as the regular foods they carry, with few real differences except a higher price tag and label. 

You can read my past posts on the topic, but in a nutshell, you need to increase liquids, keep the urine acidic, and see if that helps. The itching could be an allergy, but id work on the struvite thing first. Since you may have an allergy and struvite issue, if you want, try the Wellness SIMPLE SOLUTIONS--it has very few ingredients, and is a good food. You can also try California naturals, or Natural balance's Allergy food. All three are good for allergies, and are foods made without corn (a known allergen), and are formulated to help with allergies. You should also increase liquid intake. I do this by either putting a tiny bit of low sodium broth with some water to entice them to drink and then slowly reduce the amount of broth as they get accustomed to drinking more. OR, I add the water to their dry food so that to get to the food they have to drink the liquid first--or get real good at bobbing for kibbble! Increased water is essential for keeping the urinary tract clear. You also need to add supplements, either Solid Gold's Berry Balance, or start out trying just cranberry supplements, 1-2 per day for the urinary tract. You should be monitoring with the pH strips to make sure it is acidic, (you can always try another one of the foods I suggested if you arent gettiing the acidic readings after a month or so), and you can touch the urine--if it feels sandy, there are crystals. lastly if you still need more, you can use distilled water instead of regular water, and that with the berry balance/cran pills (or both if you have a very bad case) are usually enough to control it. I know many dogs with bad struvites that are controlled with diet, liquid intake, cran/berry balance, and distilled water. Sure it takes some work but it is worth it. 

I would strongly suggest switching foods, as your RC clearly isnt clearing anyth8ing up for her, and she sounds miserable. You can also ad a tiny bit of fish oil (human grade), or olive oil (like a teaspoon a day) to her food to help with her coat. The food will help that too. 

Good luck. Message me if needed.


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## elenajas

LASTLY--
Origen is an excellent food--one of the best, but you always need to have lots of liquid--most dogs and people dont get nearly enough as they should. there are lots of calculators online to figure out how much your dog should be drinking. Do a few, and make sure your dog is getting that. 
Innova is also a good food, it is a grain inclusive food, made by Natura, the same people who make Evo and California Naturals--foods that vets often love. I dont know why a vet would tell you to stay away, but keep this in mind:
1. Guess who gives the nutrition training in vet school? Hills. 
2. Vets are like your regular doc, you wouldnt go to your regular doc for detailed nutrition advice-you would see a nutritionist. 
3. Check around, there is a lot of differences in vets--vets in some areas are stuck in old ways, and havent done research or arent engaged in the new research and info concerning dog nutrition. Some are. There is a changing tide though, and vets are becoming more knowledgeable about nutrition and the food ingredients--however these things are hard to change, and take time. So really, Im not surprised, rumors and bad info are often spread, and like the old doc my mom still goes to who gives her some outdated advice, not everyone is as up to date as others. Keep that in mind. The proof is in the pudding, there are tons of dogs who have their struvite crystals managed by the regimen above, and who also look and are healthy. 

Good luck everyone!


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## anneh

Hi, I am very interestedin this topic. I am seeking to adopt a second dog and found a sweet one but then was told she had struvite crystals when taken in to rescue and had to have surgery and then was put on Science Diet  After that apparently she was leaking urine and was put on Prion  My main concern is whether its normal for a dog to leak urine after that surgery? The rescue person is slowly taking her off Prion. I feed my dogs a homemade diet so I know I can tailor one for her plus give distilled water/cranberry etc but am most concerned about whether she might have permanent leaking problems. Thanks for input  anneh


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## flipgirl

LindaL, I would consult your vet before switching to another food. I know he or she will probably insist on the Royal Canin but maybe bring in the food you are thinking and an ingredients list (along with percentages of ingredients like phosphorus, magnesium, calcium protein etc. on a dry matter basis - you can contact the company for these if need be). My dog had struvite crystals and was supposed to eat the Royal Canin food. I refused because I didn't see meat as an ingredient and if there isn't any meat, what really is in the food? Anyway, I continued feeding her raw but added Wysong's Biotic ph- which is a supplement that makes the urine more acidic. It worked and her crystals were gone. Of course, I just contradicted myself by telling you to consult your vet when I went against my own vet's advice. However, my vet also told me that feeding my dog raw wasn't natural and if I wanted to feed natural I should feed her canned food. Her reasoning was that the meat I was feeding her isn't the same meat that a dog would catch in the wild. Well, I have yet to see a can running in the wild!  Regardless, a vet would know the levels of particular ingredients that need to be restricted so if you bring in some good foods and have her/him compare them, then you could feel more comfortable feeding the foods. I would feed canned food but you can also add water to her food or some low sodium chicken or beef broth to increase the pallatability. Or freeze the broth in an ice cube tray and use them for treats. Also, you want to be careful that you're not making her urine too acidic because then you increase the likelihood of calcium oxylate stones which are much more difficult to treat. Struvite crystals usually become an issue when an infection is present because the infection causes the crystals to stick together (thereby causing stones) or stick to the bladder wall (thereby causing an irritated/inflamed bladder wall). Once the infection is cleared up, usually the struvite crystals are gone or are no longer a problem. Dogs can have struvite crystals and be okay but when there is an infection, then they're a problem. BTW, it's been about 8 months since my dog has had crystals and there has been no recurrence. I am still feeding her raw and add about a 1/4 to 1/2 cup of water to her food.


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## LindaL

I wanted to update everyone on my Maltese Annie and the issues around her food and the crystals. Thanks *so* much to all of you who have given such great advice and help.

I still need to make an appointment with her Vet and have a good talk with him. I think he put her on the RC-SO14 (for life) as a preventive, and also did a round of antibiotics. Flipgirl, I have a feeling he's the kind of Vet who will tell me to do whatever I think is best---he's not the kind to push things, but I'm just getting to know him. My adult kids all take their animals to him. When I go in for her checkup I will definitely be discussing all of this with him! Thanks for reminding me  ! 

To remind---when I got her she came with an envelope with an egg sized stone that had been removed from her bladder last October. I think my Vet could tell she wasn't fully treated, because he commented he could feel the incision and it was rough. I became concerned because her poops were so dry and hard on the RC. That's when I found all of you and began to learn about the differences in foods.

After looking at all of them I decided to try her on Wellness Core. She refused to eat it for the first day. I was trying to mix it with her RC to wean her onto it slowly. She would just pick out the RC and leave the Wellness! Finally I just gave her the Wellness Core and she ate a bit of it. My husband pointed out that the kibbles are very hard and maybe she was having trouble chewing it. She is missing quite a few teeth. I started adding hot water to the kibbles (thanks Elenajas ) and now she is eating them with no problem---plus, she gets added water!

I did check her urine pH before I started and it was NEUTRAL! This was after a month and a half on the RC! I have been adding a cranberry capsule each day to her new food and will check the pH in a few days to see if there is any change.

 I do have a question I think someone else asked about the form/dosage of the cranberry. I picked up the gelcaps thinking they would be liquid and I could just pierce them and squeeze the juice out. But, it makes a royal mess! The ones I have are filled with a thick, almost pasty substance. Is there a brand (cheap) on the market that is a tablet I can crush or a liquid? Also, I noticed several different doses. How many "mg" a day should she be getting as a preventive to just keep her urine on the acidic side---and how acidic should the pH be? I don't want her to end up with the other type of crystals!

*Anneh*---I didn't get Annie until 2 months after her surgery, but she has had no problems with leaking. In fact had I not been told, and seen that she had been shaved I wouldn't have even known she had a problem. I don't know anything about the leaking problem, but I'd want to get it checked.

I will keep everyone posted as we adjust to the new food and cranberry. I can't tell you how much it has helped to have such great support and input from you all. This was all new to me and really scary. Please let me know about the cranberry dose and acid issue if you know, this is all *VERY *useful information!

With much gratitude ,
Linda L


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## SchnauzerMom

Hi, dog lovers!

Thank you all so much for the great info in this thread!

Here's my story... My mini Schnauzer Kali has been plagued with a lifetime of health problems. She has severe allergies, multiple ear infections, has had kidney issues, UTIs & BOTH forms of urinary crystals. My vet had her on Hills urinary diet then switched her to Urinary SO...I hated them both & have been trying to find a better quality food that will still support her urinary health. We also have to factor in many food allergies - which I think were exacerbated by the prescribed foods, but at the time I was more worried about crystals than her allergy symptoms.

After learning more about the (IMO) bad quality ingredients in the prescribed foods I tried her on Wellness Core Light (or something like that). My other dogs get Natural Balance limited ingredient Potato & Duck - I was worried it had too much protein for Kali, who at one point had extremely high triglyceride levels & bad levels of BUN & another kidney function (I had been cooking for her). Unfortunately she didn't react well to the Wellness...she seemed happy & more energetic but she was itchier, I think from the oats. So she is now on the Natural Balance as well, and I'm just hoping the protein level is OK for her. 

I add water to her dry kibble to encourage her to drink, however I'm worried that it will decrease the benefit of feeding dry food to keep her teeth healthy. She's almost 13 & has never needed a dental cleaning.

My dogs also get about a heaping tablespoon of goat milk yogurt, a little bit of Natural Balance P&D canned, green beans & broccoli (sometimes other veggies). Also fish oil & Kali gets glucosamine (which the vet said might not be the greatest for dogs with crystals - but Kali REALLY needs it).

I'm thinking of adding some apple cider vinegar...mostly to help Oliver, my Lhasapoo, who has rust-colored stains where he's been licking his tummy & paws. I wondered how that would affect Kali's acidity level...which is how I found this thread! It's on my list now, as are the berry supplements discussed here.

I'm still on the lookout for a better food for her...going to investigate Innova & maybe other varieties of Wellness. Anyone tried the Sojourner dry mix where you add your own meat/veggies?

Thanks for reading...any tips, advice, discussion welcome! I hope all your doggies are feeling better & doing great!


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## Kathyy

Get copies of all Kali's blood and urine tests for her entire life and join [email protected]. She has a history of UTI and oxalate crystals PLUS kidney issues? She will be happier if you can find the right treatment for her. 

Do not worry about the teeth and kibble, all the carbs in kibble mess up teeth and she is doing well in that regard. Keep the kibble good and wet! If you just float it and she eats it before it gets soggy it is crunchy anyway if it really does keep her teeth cleaner. Hydration is even more important for dogs with these issues than for healthy dogs.

The acidity of the food doesn't mean it will acidify the urine. I think vitamin C will but vinegar won't. I wouldn't mess with trying to adjust urine acidity unless directed to do so by a vet and a dietitian.

If your dog is an oxalate crystal former then staying away from higher oxalate foods is a good idea. You could do research to find those types of foods and then try to find a kibble low in oxalates. A Herculean task. Or you could home cook. One of the moderators on K9KidneyDiet has formulated a diet that keeps stones from forming and can even dissolve existing stones. Besides low oxalate foods it involves a particular type of calcium supplement, distilled water and some particular supplements. And it is easy to do, choose suitable foods and suitable for any dog.

I am biased towards home cooking for dogs. You can tailor it to your dog's precise needs easily. A senior dog will all these issues would be far better off with a home made food. Ideally the food needs to be wet, free of allergens, low in oxalate foods, has a phosphorus level just right to help out the kidneys, has enough protein. Just try to do that on kibble or even a prescription diet!


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## moltov

My Yorkie has been "going" inside the house a lot lately, especially at night, even after frequent walks. I have recently noticed where the pee spots will dry up over night and in the morning when i wake up, there are big cyrstals "growing" in the area. I was wondering if I can tell which type of cyrstal they are or do I need them checked by a vet?


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## Kathyy

You need to go to the vet. Even if you could tell what kind they are there is more you need to know to treat a problem.


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## moltov

Thanks, we took her in yesterday and the vet told us that she had an infection and is sending out a sample to get tested further. Will keep you posted.


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## Kathyy

Poor thing, good you got her in. These things can be monsters. Best to finish the antibiotic, wait a few days, have the urine tested and cultured again to be certain the infection is really gone.


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## CaneCorso

Hello I did alot of reading thru this post and wanted to make sure I dont need to feed her the Hills Prescription food. My female pup was 8 weeks when we took her to the vet, she had crystals in her urine and she gave us pills to take twice a day untill all gone and that Hills food to add to or use only to feed her. I feed her Wellness large breed puppy food and really dont want to use that "filler" hills food. My question is after we get her retested should i use any other food or can i keep her on Wellness or another high quality food. I saw the Wellness Core is made for dogs over 1 year old so once that day comes i'll switch.


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## CaneCorso

No1 has any info for me?? Really??


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## moltov

CaneCorso said:


> No1 has any info for me?? Really??


What type of crystals were found?


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## CaneCorso

The most common ones, Struvite crystals


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## moltov

CaneCorso said:


> The most common ones, Struvite crystals


This is from a website I just looked at. It says "Diet Alteration: Diet alternation may be helpful in the medical treatment of struvite and ammonium urate stones. Specially formulated diets can actually cause the stones - even large ones - to dissolve completely. These diets take time, often 60 to 150 days, to work. To take struvite and Hill's s/d diet as an example, the principle by which s/d works is that it contains lower than normal levels of large proteins, magnesium, and phosphorous. Less protein means less urea, and therefore, less ammonium and carbon dioxide formed by the action of urease. Remember that struvite is made up of magnesium and phosphate ions, so lower levels of these materials also decrease the quantity of crystals that can potentially be formed. Feeding s/d helps the urine become more acidic. And last but not least, Hill's has slightly increased the sodium chloride (normal table salt) to increase water consumption by the animal, thereby increasing a flushing action through the bladder and better keeping the crystals in solution.

NOTE: Do NOT use a urinary acidifier and s/d, c/d, or a similar diet at the same time.

However, s/d cannot be used indefinitely as a preventive because it is not considered a complete diet. Also, it is not recommended for use in patients suffering from heart failure or kidney disease because of its salt and protein levels. After the initial 60 to 150 day period, when medical therapy is actively attempting to dissolve the stones or sand that is present in the bladder, the animal is removed from s/d and placed on a maintenance diet such as Hill's c/d or w/d. Royal Canin, Purina, and some other companies have also developed specialized diets for use with dogs with urinary stones. If a dog is reluctant to eat one manufacturer's diet, it is advisable to try diets produced by another company.

Prior to the development of specialized diets, urinary acidifiers such as vitamin C or dl-methionine were sometimes used to lower the pH of the urine in cases of struvite stones, for example. Specialty diets are now preferred since they alter not only the pH, but the concentration on stone-forming constituents. Remember: Do NOT give urinary acidifiers when you are using one of the specialty diets that also acidify urine."


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## moltov

So it seems that even though they do have a lot of "fillers", it is exactly what the dog needs to control the symptoms of struvite cystals and to counteract the causes. But all in all it's up to you what you feed them. I don't think vets would try to do any harm to our our beloved friends just to make a buck. They spent a lot of time and money in med school and know more than most of us who are giving our "opinions." And, they took an oath.


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## LillyElizabeth

Hi everyone,

I've read through everyone's posts, and there seems to be a wealth of knowledge here. I would love some opinions on our situation:

We just adopted Lilly, a 1.5 year old black lab. From day one (which was last Saturday), she has been leaking urine all over the house. It is just dripping out when she walks around and even when she is laying down. She pees frequently when brought outside (up to 5 or 6 times while on a 45 minute walk). We brought her out 8 or 9 times before noontime on Sunday, and she went at least twice every time. I brought her to the vet Monday, and she even had two large accidents there. She drinks a lot, so I know that's not the problem. I have no idea if she had this issue before she came to me, but I figure she did. 

Anyhow, we had her urine tested and it is extremely alkaline (8.9), and they found crystals - but no red or white blood cells. For that reason, the vet wasn't sure if it was a UTI or if she potentially has bladder stones. Maybe even a bad spay (spayed female urinary incontinence). She prescribed a 7-day round of clavamox and told me to give her vitamin-C pills 3x/day. She has been on the pills for 4 days, and has improved, but is still leaking. She's peeing less frequently when we take her out (improvement). Yesterday was totally leak free (and we were so relieved and excited), though today she had a large accident in her crate (after being alone for only a couple of hours) and then was dripping all over for about an hour after that. How demoralizing! We are worried that the cost of all the tests/xrays etc. are going to mount up, and I've already spent over $1,000 on an incontinent cat (just lucky I guess). Of course, she is the sweetest, most well-behaved dog ever, which is just salt in the wound!

We are so hoping it's a UTI and not something else that requires expensive tests and/or surgery. Shouldn't her leaking be cleared up after 4 days on meds? That's what my vet indicated. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? We are feeding her Eagle Pack (chicken base). Thanks!!

Tina


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## Freddiemypet

My Male Shih Tzu had a calcium oxalate removed 1 1/2 years ago and the vet put him on Kidney Function NF can food. I also bought the dry version because he does not like the can but does not like the dry either. I mix rice and another prescription food (gastroentestinal) which has nothing to do with
the calcium oxalate but he seems to eat it better. I also have been mixing 1/4 tsp of baking soda per vet recomendation. I bought test trips and usually get a 7 ph balance. after 1 1/2 years now the test trip was at a 5 and I took the urine to the vet who said it has crystals and blood in his urine. They did a sonigram that does not show stones but i am at a loss. I thought as long as I kept his ph at a 7 the urine would be o.k. and what is the wellness core food? They have him on antibiotics to clear up the blood in his urine...I guess..I am totally confused.


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## luckelinda

Hi Melissa:

I have been using Merrick Dog Food and From for my three dogs. My newest came with crystals in her urine and they have put her on Hills CD but as you know and everyone knows, Hills is loaded with corn and fillers. I want to try a different food after she gets off the Hills in a month and see what happens. Do you suggest that I use Wellness or is there another food with high acidity for her. I am going to check the acidity in the two that I use right now to see how their acidity ratio is. Please get back to me.



elenajas said:


> HI Melissa,
> 
> Well, I fed Salvatore Wellness Core dog food. Wellness is a great company, and I found the Core line really has worked well for all our dogs, even fosters. However, there are LOTS of great foods out there. The SD won't help for the skin issues you are having, and really you dont need the SD for the crystals. Im assuming you have struvite crystals (if you dont know you should ask), and you can help your pup by choosing a food that keeps his urine acidic and adding things like berry balance, cranberry pills, and distilled water. I would consider the SD as an ultimate, very sad, last resort. I would suggest tryinig the Wellness Core, or other good foods (I can give you a list if you like). I would also suggest purchasing the berry balance, and considering some of the other tips I listed in my previous post about managing struvite crystals in urine. Not every food will work for every dog, but really, you just need to try a few and see. I would try the Wellness Core first, and if that doesnt help within a month or two (after transitioning slowly), then get back to me and I can help you find/pick another suitable food. I do have to check on the acidity of the Wellness Core, but I will do so and let you know. Good luck!!!


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## Kathyy

Oxalates form due to a very common genetic fault. Best thing to do is limit oxalates in the diet. The script food doesn't limit oxalates, it mostly tries to adjust the urine's pH to neutral. Like I posted earlier, join K9KidneyDiet and read about Fuzzer Food, an eating regime that limits oxalates and has a couple of other easy to follow guidelines.

Just because a food is acid doesn't mean it forms acid urine. Vitamin C does but vinegar doesn't! That is the limit of my knowledge of that. If the crystals are struvite force water consumption and get the dog in for urine tests if there is a problem. Usually it is a hard to detect UTI that causes alkaline urine with those crystals. I found cranberry capsules with a powder inside but didn't know how much to use. Sassy got an upset right when I tried it so I dropped it and haven't tried it again. Usually dogs need more supplementing per pound than humans but I wouldn't do more than a percentage for starters, as in 10% of a human dose if the the dog is about 10% the weight of an average adult human.


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## sadiegirlsmom

My dog had struvite stones 5 years ago, which were surgically removed. Her vet put her on Hill's Prescription Diet C/D to prevent them from coming back. Her crystals showed high protein. A few months ago, I noticed her urine was a rust color. After testing and x-rays, stones were found again, 2 of them (plus a UTI). The urinalysis showed they were oxalate this time. She just turned 13 years old. Even though she's still spunky, she has an enlarged heart and edema, which she's on lasix for. I don't know how the stones came back. I read that lasix can cause them, but the vets I spoke to insisted that couldn't be. Anyway, vet said surgery would be harmful for her and tried her on the Hill's Prescription Diet S/D to try to dissolve the stones. Which I read that S/D only works on struvite stones. But, we had to try since surgery wasn't an option. Let me tell you, she HATED it! She wouldn't eat, lost weight and even started eating dirt! I can't blame her, it smelled and looked terrible. The texture was very slimy and gross. After 2 more sets of x-rays, the vet thinks the stones are becoming less dense, one might be gone. I expressed my concern with her not eating the S/D and he mentioned Royal Canin SO Urinary. It's very expensive (16.4 pounds dry food for $40, can for $2.50) but she's eating again! Hallelujah! I wouldn't recommend S/D to anyone. I just hope the Royal Canin works for her.


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## dakotajo

where do you buy those strips for testing the urine? My female had struvite crystals and was on antibiotics twice and it never helped. When she was going in to be spayed they sent a sample away to see what meds would treat them more effectively and they were gone! being spayed solved the problem and the vet mentioned something about the kidneys. Anyways, that was over a year ago and would like to test her urine to make sure they are still gone. Can you buy these strips at the vet or at any drugstore?


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## cshellenberger

sadiegirlsmom said:


> My dog had struvite stones 5 years ago, which were surgically removed. Her vet put her on Hill's Prescription Diet C/D to prevent them from coming back. Her crystals showed high protein. A few months ago, I noticed her urine was a rust color. After testing and x-rays, stones were found again, 2 of them (plus a UTI). The urinalysis showed they were oxalate this time. She just turned 13 years old. Even though she's still spunky, she has an enlarged heart and edema, which she's on lasix for. I don't know how the stones came back. I read that lasix can cause them, but the vets I spoke to insisted that couldn't be. Anyway, vet said surgery would be harmful for her and tried her on the Hill's Prescription Diet S/D to try to dissolve the stones. Which I read that S/D only works on struvite stones. But, we had to try since surgery wasn't an option. Let me tell you, she HATED it! She wouldn't eat, lost weight and even started eating dirt! I can't blame her, it smelled and looked terrible. The texture was very slimy and gross. After 2 more sets of x-rays, the vet thinks the stones are becoming less dense, one might be gone. I expressed my concern with her not eating the S/D and he mentioned Royal Canin SO Urinary. It's very expensive (16.4 pounds dry food for $40, can for $2.50) but she's eating again! Hallelujah! I wouldn't recommend S/D to anyone. I just hope the Royal Canin works for her.


 
Go to one of the Yahoo kidney groups for dogs, I know of people that are having great success with homemade and raw kidney diets. 

Here are some sites you should read also for more information.

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/kidney-diet/
http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediets.htm

Here's the link to the yahoo group groups.yahoo.com/group/K9KidneyDiet/


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## KAroberts

spotted nikes said:


> Make sure your bottled water is Distilled, not Spring water. Unless it is distilled, it has lots of minerals.


Yes, this is often overlooked I've heard. A family friend's pup had issues with crystals. They're not sure it was caused by spring but i guess there's a chance. They always suspected it.


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## Gregti

elenajas said:


> Im with you on the Nutro food issues. I wouldnt support them (and just note they are having and FDA issue right now), and for the same reason i wouldnt support grocery brands, nor Merrick.


elenajas;

What do you find wrong with Merricks? We have used the novel protein flavors of their canned food for our 7 dogs for many years with no food related health problems. All of our dogs are rescue dogs and came to us with health problems of one sort or another, some very serious. In the case of one who is highly allergic to the ingredients in most dog foods, Merricks was one of the things that helped us save her life. As such, I would really like to know what negative information your or anyone else on the forum has learned about Merricks in whatever detail you can provide. Thanks to everyone in advance for the information.

I also want to thank all the contributors to this particular thread about crystals in urine. I found a lot of very useful information in the cumulative posts that helped me in dealing with our vet about one of our dogs who recently had some anomalys in his urinalysis.

Greg

PS: We did once follow a vet's prescription to use Hill's S/D. Not only did the dog hate it, but it actually gave him IBD. We took him off it, but it still required months of Budesonide to get his stools to look even remotely okay. We recently took him off the Budesonide after more than a year, and his stools are mostly normal, but occasionally still very soft.


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## RichM

I find there is a lot of helpful information from the newsletters at http://www.b-naturals.com/ We feed our dog Honest Kitchen Force, that way she gets added water in her food. I also give her the cranberry extract and fish oil that was purchased from bnaturals. And she also gets a probiotic everyday. The Total Biotic seems to be a good brand.

One word of caution don't use the regular apple cider vinegar from the grocery store, you have to buy the brand that has the mother of vinegar, like the Bragg brand. If you can find it at a grocery store it's a few dollars less expensive. I give her a teaspoon in her food two or three times a week.

http://www.b-naturals.com/bragg-apple-cider-vinegar-16-oz-p-68?cPath=22_23_14

My Cocker Spaniel has had no symptoms of UTI after two weeks of antibiotics from the vet and the subsequent therapies I have used.


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## nanaling

dear all, new to here, hope there's still sb following this post.

my corgi is 3.5 yrs old, she had stivulate crystals when she is 1 and recovered after undergoing 3 weeks hill's s/d canned food. now, she is sufferring the exact same thing again (ph is 7.5 this time!) and undergoing 2 weeks hill's s/d canned food. She's been eating Pinnacle Potato and duck for almost 1.5 years. I admit she didn't drink enough water and she didn't pee much.

after read through the whole discussion, i'll consider using berry balance for sure, adding apple cider vingear or cranberry juice to water, ph test paper and sourcing for a dry food for her to replace pinnacle. 

to conclude all the discussion, i think wellness core is quite good, however, it contains high protein, i understand it is still controversial between protein and urine crystal, however, which one should i follow? high protein? low protein?

the following are my ideal list of food so far:
wellness core (but hi protein)
wellness super5mix (but not grain-free)
solid gold lamb adult (with blueberries and cranberries as ingredient, however not grain-free again)
nature's variety prairie (not grain-free again)

pls give me suggestion, million thanks


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## RichM

I have tried a lot of dog foods and my dog did not do well on grain-free (diarrhea) and I went through the correct feeding cycles. If it were me, I would get a food with no more than 30% protein.Try to add some water to the food, and if your able too take them out every 3 to 5 hours to pee. I haven't tried the apple cider vinegar in water, I just add it to the food, one cap full is all you need once or twice a day (until symptoms go away). I have since changed my dog's food to the Honest Kitchen Verve and she's doing very well. 
I had noticed only once when taking her for a walk, she was urinating frequently and I added the vinegar and cranberry pills to her food and symptoms were gone within 2 days. 
Also I have also read that it is not a good idea to use apple cider vinegar for prolonged use, that is why I only suggest using it until symptoms go away. 1 to 2 ounces, once or twice a day for a few days should stop the symptoms.
Out of the list of your foods, I would go with the Solid Gold. I have heard positive reviews of it, plus it has cranberries.


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## gnostic19

I have a long-haired chihuahua, abut 6 yrs old. She had bladder stones about a year and a half ago. She was very sick, was seeping blood and urine day and night for a week becuase we had vet giving her IM saline/liquids to get her to pee and keep bladder flowing. Anyway, after looking at x-ray vet told us she had the harder, more difficult to deal with kind (calcium-oxolate, right?) Can't recall, but she showed me the xray and said, i believe, that one type of stones/crystals is more clearly visible and the other is not. This is all neither here not there, cause i can't remember which she had.

Anyway, one day, she popped out a garbanzo bean-sized stone. Girlfriend actually saw it pop out and was quite amused at the quizical look on Soupy's face after in came out. Anyway, i gave it to vet to keep in file. I should have had her send off for analysis, but i didn't. Anyway, Soupy got better after this, which was odd because vet said she thought she saw more than one stone, though i never saw more than one or two when i saw x-ray, if i saw any. 

So, Soupy got better and after about two months i got stone from vet tech to keep and saw that it had crumbled. Does this mean it was a struvite and not the oxolate?

I subsequently got her urine tested for crystals about a year after incident and there were none that were detected. Since the incident i have been giving Soupy the hard Royal Canine SR14 (could be wrong on model) food and the canned s/d from Science Diet. Soupy likes it just fine, but people here gripe about it. I was under impression that high protein food was bad for these types of things, but some here recommend high protein diets. Feel like i should keep going with current food if no issues have arisen again. Any thoughts. Also, was looking in to Berry Balance but it says not good for oxolate variety.

Appreciate any comments on this. Apologize for long mess of a post.


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## Trishf

Is there anything I can use as filler in prescription food? I have 2 dogs (Pug & English Bulldog) that have developed Crystals & they are both on prescription food and it is very costly. There has to be something I can use as filler, Chicken Rice anything.....


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## theyogachick

Let me preface this with I AM NOT A VET.

Gracie has recurring struvites. At one appointment we were told she had more crystals in her urine than any dog they had ever seen. My vet wanted her on Royal Canin SO for life. I was not happy with that, so I contacted a homeopathic vet to see if he had other options. I was told to give her 500 mg of vitamin C once a day. I didn't have to change anything else--just keep her food below 25% protein and give Vitamin C. Her last urine test (last week) showed a Ph of 7 and 2 crystals. Only two. He upped her Vitamin C to 500 mg every 12 hours and we are checking urine again in a month.

I am not saying you should ignore vet advice, but maybe ask your vet about alternatives. If he is not willing to offer alternatives, try to find a homeopathic/holistic vet and see what happens.

I also have added water to her food to up her water intake and I add a spoonful of canned food to make like a gravy. Goes over very well 

Triscf: if you are sticking to the Rx diet, there is NOTHING you can use in addition to. No treats, other food, etc. You have to feed only that diet. (another reason I looked for a second opinion).


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## snaffle

Are any of the board members who first discussed the differences in dog foods when their dogs were having problems with the crystals still active here?

I would like to know what they discovered when feeding Solid Gold or Innova. Did your dogs stop developing crystals? 

My dog had struvite last may and the other ones this spring. 

Vet prescribed Science Diet Cd last year. this year I was told to feed Science Diet UD and the dog will NOT touch it.


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## nanaling

hi snaffle, my corgi is eating solid gold and berry balance with water for one month. for the first 2 weeks, we took the urine sample to the vet to check, comparing with the result under cd can food, the condensation level raise a little bit, ph level as well, no crystal is found, but to compare with the situation before under cd can food, it's obviously better. and i will occassionally check the ph level with ph stripe by myself, till now, the ph is around 6.5-7, which is better than before. hope this may help u


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## flipgirl

I


snaffle said:


> Are any of the board members who first discussed the differences in dog foods when their dogs were having problems with the crystals still active here?
> 
> I would like to know what they discovered when feeding Solid Gold or Innova. Did your dogs stop developing crystals?
> 
> My dog had struvite last may and the other ones this spring.
> 
> Vet prescribed Science Diet Cd last year. this year I was told to feed Science Diet UD and the dog will NOT touch it.


I am not a vet but i work as a vet tech/ receptionist/kennel person at an animal hospital. My dog had struvite.crystals a couple of years ago. She had been on raw for 6 months at that time. She also had a uti which often accompanies struvite crystals. The vet recommended urinary so but I refused to feed it because there is no meat in it. So she suggested c/d. I fed one can and stopped because the mounds of pooh it created. So I found Wysong's biotic ph- which is a supplement you add to food. The crystals were totally gone. Usually, a dog can live with struvite crystals but if.an infection occurs, thtr. rystals can stick together and form stones and also stick to the bladder wall and cause inflammation. Up until a month ago, I have fed her raw and she has had no problems. I just add a bit of water to her food to give her extra.hydration. The vet doesn't like the idea of raw but you have to do what's best for your dog. Luckily, there are more than one vet and one of them has no problem with raw. Anyway, I read the Small Animal Nutrition manual and it said that protein, magnesium, calcium and phosphorus need to be restricted. I can't remember the maximum values. I don't think Innova is too high in protein and as long as you add water. Canned would be a better option however because of the increased.moisture.


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## eferg21

Hi all,
My Lucy is a 2 year old Bichon/Shih Tzu mix. We got her as a puppy and when she was about 8 months old we had her urine check because of frequent urination and the vet found struvite crystals. The vet sold us a bad of Science Diet and her symptoms improved. We then switched her to Royal Canin SO14 which she has done pretty well of for the past year.

Now she is starting to urinate more frequently again and has had less energy so we are looking for a change. After reading through the great information on this site we are going to put her on a premium food, probably Innova or Wellness Core, and the Biotic pH. We also want to supplement with the suggested berry blend, cranberry pills, and vitamin C but have been unable to find them. Can you all recommend any brands and source for these?

Thank you all so much for the great information,
-Eric


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## oberz3

Hi everyone,

I've been reading a lot of these posts and there is some really good information here! Glad to have joined in! We have a 5 year-old Basset Hound named Fred, who was just in to see the vet because of needing to go out to pee in the middle of the night where for the last 5 years, he's never done that! Always made it through the night! Found out he has crystals in his urine and the vet recommended we change his dry food to Iams (we've been feeding him Chicken Soup For The Soul Dry Dog Food). I haven't read anything about Iams in these posts, only Wellness, Innova and EVO. I'd like to know if one brand is better for the Basset Hound breed than another. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help with this!


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## duchessabby

Hi oberz3,
We have a 7 year old female Basset named Abby, just found out she has multiple bladder stones of the oxalate type and our vet has suggested surgery to remove them. Just starting her on ScienceDiet U/D and transitioning from her old food, she'll eat it, but already we've noticed looser stools. Came here looking for help on choosing the healthiest possible food for her and can't believe how helpful all the posts have been! I've read a couple of places that Bassets are one of the breeds more prone to developing crystals/bladder stones, so I'd be curious to know if there is a Basset specific diet out there.
We lost our first Basset, Charlie, 4 years ago to a nasty sarcoma in his bladder and wondering now if he had crystals/stones and was just never symptomatic until it was too late. Miss him every day and definitely don't want to go through the same thing with Abby. Best of luck to you and Fred


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## oberz3

duchessabby said:


> Hi oberz3,
> We have a 7 year old female Basset named Abby, just found out she has multiple bladder stones of the oxalate type and our vet has suggested surgery to remove them. Just starting her on ScienceDiet U/D and transitioning from her old food, she'll eat it, but already we've noticed looser stools. Came here looking for help on choosing the healthiest possible food for her and can't believe how helpful all the posts have been! I've read a couple of places that Bassets are one of the breeds more prone to developing crystals/bladder stones, so I'd be curious to know if there is a Basset specific diet out there.
> We lost our first Basset, Charlie, 4 years ago to a nasty sarcoma in his bladder and wondering now if he had crystals/stones and was just never symptomatic until it was too late. Miss him every day and definitely don't want to go through the same thing with Abby. Best of luck to you and Fred


Hi duchessabby,

Thanks for your reply! Aren't Basset Hounds just the best dogs ever?!?!? Well, after a lot of research and time talking to the wonderful people at our local pet store (not a chain store), I ended up choosing a holistic dry dog food for Fred that was highly recommended and also got a few cans of wet food (canned) where the only ingredients were chicken and water. So we'll slowly transition him onto the new foods and together with giving him filtered water from now on (not tap water anymore), we're very hopeful that at Fred's next visit to the vet, they'll see less or no crystals in his urine. Keep your fingers crossed for us!


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## Robinnadine

My dog was diagnosed with calcium oxalate stones a few years ago. He had surgery and my vet recommended canned Royal Canine S/O, a low oxalate diet. He loved it and has been crystal/stone free since, but in the last month has refused to eat the S/O. I tried their dry kibble, but he doesn't like it either nor does he like Hill's Prescription u/d -- very picky. I found Weruva, "Paw Lickin' Chicken" canned food, which is pretty much all chicken and doesn't contain sweet potatoes, carrots or spinach that are bad for oxalate stones. I'm just wonder if anyone has heard of Weruva or if they've found a diet that works well for a dog with this type of stone.

Thank you.


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## StellaLucyDesi

First off, I'm not a vet. But if you're looking for a complete and balanced all meat canned diet, then Merrick's BG is not complete and balanced. I'm not sure if there are any ingredients that might be high oxalate, though, because I think they did add some things in when the became complete and balanced. But it might be worth checking in to. Also Wellness Simple Solution and California Naturals has some pretty simple canned food recipes, but again I'm not sure if anything in them would be high oxalate.


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## chrissy03bw

Hello...
I am writing to get information. Our 2 year old pug was just diagnosed with a lot of different things. She started out not feeling well. She became very lethargic, excessively drinking, pacing/circling, vomiting off and on, and weight loss, etc. The vet ran some blood work and it showed elevated ALT liver enzymes. We decided to have an ultrasound.
During the ultrasound it was discovered she has a lot of gallbladder sludge and an extremely tiny liver. There are some noted abnormal vessels located cranial to her kidneys.
She also has crystals in the bladder and urine. Her PH levels and protein levels were high in the urine, thus indicating an infection there as well.
The recommendations to us:
bile acids tests and prescription science diet k/d.
Bile acids came back very high (although nobody is giving us numbers as of now...the vet and specialist are doing the talking and we are calling to figure out what is going on here...they say someone will sit with us eventually when it is closer)
The recommendations:
were to our vet were to give latulose 2 times a day and metronidazole 2 times a day. Stay on the prescription diet. 
I finally called and asked if we should be feeding her smaller meals because she just did not look well after eating...one said it didn't matter, the specialist said yes that would be a great idea.
We did buy some distilled water, but we were not sure if that would be a good idea to incorporate or not??? We are looking for small suggestions to get us through the next 2-3 weeks while she takes these meds. They want to get her stronger for exploratory surgery. They believe she has a portosystemic liver shunt that may be causing all of these other problems.
She was on Fromm and Natural Balance LID before this. She loves NB and they have a new veggie diet out, so I was thinking of asking the vet about that. We are very new to all of this. we are gathering any information and any resources we can to help our little girl. We have three pugs. She is the youngest and only girl pug.


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## cshellenberger

DO NOT give your dog a vegitarian diet! Dogs are carnivores and NEED meat. Go to the Kidney sites I suggested and get information.


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## gabry

my male has the same issue crystals in his bladder, the vet ordered a prescription diet from royal canin but since it contains a bunch of grains he got loads of tear stains and it took hime 6 months of that diet to get rid of the crystals, then he got them again so this time I fed him a no grain diet (what he usually eats) but also gave him a vitamin C suppliment, crystals where gone after 2 weeks and no stains. I will stick to the vitamin C with the food of my choice that is better than that prescription diet full of corn and grains


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## aspen47

elenajas said:


> It isn't that the vet is trying to get more money or not, it is often that some vets are becoming more versed in canine nutrition, and some are not. The ones who are not, often still use the Hills and Science diet foods as fixes. However, these foods often can mask other illnesses or problems, and are not really things any dog should be eating as they are full of corn, filler, and rarely any meat.
> 
> For crystals it depends what kind of crystals you have. If you have struvite crystals then you can help control it with food. You can also add supplements like Berry Balance to help or cranberry pills. Many dog owners control struvite crystals with either a raw diet, or a kibble diet. (Ill talk about struvite b/c they are the most common type, and calcium oxalate crystals cannot easily be controlled by diet except to avoid foods high in oxalate). Struvites form in alkaline urine, so to prevent you need to keep the pH of the urine more on the acidic side. You should choose a kibble accordingly--if you need help with that you can feel free to ask.
> 
> Some people also use Ester C (vitamin C), apple cider vinegar, and "tinkle tonic" to help. Often people buy pH strips so they can test the urine and make sure it is staying on the acidic side. Also, lots of fluids is important daily to keep the system flushed and moving. Some people also use a solution of water and apple cider vinegar to cleanse the pee area on the pup as well as often crystals often come with infections, like UTIs and bladder infections.
> 
> Basically, you don't need that Hills food, to be honest it is overpriced corn in a bag. And you can get a good kibble that will keep your urine acidic that is actually a healthy food. More and more vets are becoming interested in the newest stuff on nutrition, and less and less are recommending the HIlls or SD. I would suggest a kibble that will keep you acidic, lots of water (you can add it to the kibble if it helps them drink, or a tiny drop of low sodium meat broth to the water if they dont like to drink), Berry Balance (and the ACV if you like) and pH test strips. You can really manage it this way, i know TONS of dogs who have, and who have stayed off antibiotics and struvite free.
> 
> I know it is stressfull! Good luck!
> 
> 
> KdTurngreen:
> Are you only feeding rice and veggies? I assume you are also feeding all the dogs the lamb kibble as well, or the vet told you how to supplement a home cooked diet? Just rice and veggies (in case someone reading your post misunderstood) is not a complete diet for a dog, and is lacking important things like calcium and phosphorus to just name a few. Are you doing a home cooked diet with all the supplements?


Do you know if Buffalo Blue or any other foods are good as far as the ph balance in struvite crystals?


----------



## kblock3

elenajas said:


> Hi Christa!
> 
> Ok, first off, Nutro is a terrible food. Eukanuba is bad just b/c it is a bag of corn and fillers and chemicals, but Nutro takes the cake. They have had many issues, and recently had problems b/c the level of the euthanasia drug (used for shelter dogs and cats) was too high in there food. Yes, it is legal to use euthanized dogs and cats in dog food. Go figure. Many dogs have become ill with Nutro, and I wouldnt trust them for one second.
> 
> That being said, Innova is not a rich food. Many people get confused as to what rich means. Innova is a food based on meat, and species appropriate diet. However, changing to a new food can give many dogs diahhrea and upset tummies, and some are more sensitive than others. You should always transition your foods, (adding more of the new and less of the old slowly) and for some dogs, this can be done in a week, some need a month. Solid Gold makes a supplement to help with this, if you have big problems. Now imagine, if you ate corn exclusively for life and suddenly ate meat every meal--your tummy might not be so happy for a while too. So, you can try the Innova again if you want, but if youwould rather there are many other foods out there that might work as well if not better.
> 
> I would suggest Wellness, or Wellness Core. Both are excellent foods. Solid Gold is also a good food. Being a large breed, you should just check the levels of calcium on the bag to make sure it is less than 1.5. So, I would suggest either of those (or the Innova). Evo is also an excellent food as is Nature's Variety (make sure it is Natures variety as many have similiar names). I would transition very slowly and use the Solid gold powder if your dog is very sensitive. You can also add pure canned pumpkin (not pie filling!) a spoonful or two to the food or separate--as it works like pepto for dogs and they usually like the taste.
> 
> As for your dog with crystals, I would feed both dogs the same food. So try the Wellness Core (my first suggestion) and if they do well on it, good. if not, you could always just try the Wellness Core for your dog with the crystals (or innova) and try the others out for your dog with the sensitive tummy. I would read my previous posts about Berry balance, cranberry pills, vitamin C, distilled water, test strips (if you want to go that far), and how those prescription diets just mask the symptoms. I would rather have a healthy dog, than a dog with its symptoms just covered up.
> 
> 
> good luck!



Hi! 
I have a 5 year old pit bull that was just diagnosed with crystals in her urine (with a basic pH of 9) after being treated with a mild antibiotic for skin and urinary problems. I was sent home with another round of antibiotics and Hills Prescription Diet food for urinary problems. Of course, I got home and immediately googled what causes crystals and how to treat it when I stumbled upon these posts. 
I am very hesitant to start her on the Hill's after reading what has been said and wondering what I should do. I looked into the Wellness food and am impressed just by what is on the website. I'm wondering if I should just start the transition to the Wellness food or follow what the vet has said to do. She will be going back for another urine test in 10 days to see if there is any improvement. She also has a history of uncontrolled urinating, which I was told could be due to a complication when she was fixed. I was sent home with tablets to give her basically forever.
I have also been feeding her Natural Choice by Nutro which now I want to just throw away immediately based on the things being said. I also have a 6 year old boxer, and I feed them the same food daily. 

Basically, what I am asking, is if I should go to PetsMart now and buy the Wellness food and start transitioning both dogs or not? The health of my pups is my main concern and finding a way for Nala, my pitbull, to get rid of the crystals in her urine. I have AZO cranberry tablets that I use, should I give her on of those a day? Any information/advice would help and be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks so much!


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## jlwolfe

Hello,
I have a Giant Schnauzer with the Struvite Crystal problem and am currently using Royal Canin and was wondering if you could recomend another type of food that would be just as good to use that would be more affordable. Thanks soo much for your help
J






elenajas said:


> It isn't that the vet is trying to get more money or not, it is often that some vets are becoming more versed in canine nutrition, and some are not. The ones who are not, often still use the Hills and Science diet foods as fixes. However, these foods often can mask other illnesses or problems, and are not really things any dog should be eating as they are full of corn, filler, and rarely any meat.
> 
> For crystals it depends what kind of crystals you have. If you have struvite crystals then you can help control it with food. You can also add supplements like Berry Balance to help or cranberry pills. Many dog owners control struvite crystals with either a raw diet, or a kibble diet. (Ill talk about struvite b/c they are the most common type, and calcium oxalate crystals cannot easily be controlled by diet except to avoid foods high in oxalate). Struvites form in alkaline urine, so to prevent you need to keep the pH of the urine more on the acidic side. You should choose a kibble accordingly--if you need help with that you can feel free to ask.
> 
> Some people also use Ester C (vitamin C), apple cider vinegar, and "tinkle tonic" to help. Often people buy pH strips so they can test the urine and make sure it is staying on the acidic side. Also, lots of fluids is important daily to keep the system flushed and moving. Some people also use a solution of water and apple cider vinegar to cleanse the pee area on the pup as well as often crystals often come with infections, like UTIs and bladder infections.
> 
> Basically, you don't need that Hills food, to be honest it is overpriced corn in a bag. And you can get a good kibble that will keep your urine acidic that is actually a healthy food. More and more vets are becoming interested in the newest stuff on nutrition, and less and less are recommending the HIlls or SD. I would suggest a kibble that will keep you acidic, lots of water (you can add it to the kibble if it helps them drink, or a tiny drop of low sodium meat broth to the water if they dont like to drink), Berry Balance (and the ACV if you like) and pH test strips. You can really manage it this way, i know TONS of dogs who have, and who have stayed off antibiotics and struvite free.
> 
> I know it is stressfull! Good luck!
> 
> 
> KdTurngreen:
> Are you only feeding rice and veggies? I assume you are also feeding all the dogs the lamb kibble as well, or the vet told you how to supplement a home cooked diet? Just rice and veggies (in case someone reading your post misunderstood) is not a complete diet for a dog, and is lacking important things like calcium and phosphorus to just name a few. Are you doing a home cooked diet with all the supplements?


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## twittle

I do not think that they just want your money. They really want your dog to feel better. I know that with my vet, they offer the products but do not force them on me. They have even said that I may be able to get them cheaper else where but then I would have to drive about 45 minutes one way so it is not really that much cheaper for me.


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## CorgiMom

Our Corgi is 11 years old. She was born with a very alkaline ph and so from day one she has had a problem with urine crystals. After many different medicines, she was no better. In fact, she was worse. The medicines were expensive, one even had to be compounded by a vet pharmacist. Finally, there was a vet who told us one of the most helpful things I've ever heard. "Vitamin C is safe for dogs; what their bodies can't use, they urinate out!" (Two types of urine crystals cannot exist if the urine is at the proper acid content.) So we were told to give the dog 200 mg of vitamin C twice a day. Believe it or not, that was 9 years ago. We still faithfully give her the vitamin C with every meal. She hasn't had any crystals since except when another vet told us to reduce the dosage. We quickly learned not to listen to anyone who gives that kind of advice! She doesn't seem to mind the taste of the 100 mg GNC chewables. We throw two tablets in a coffee filter and beat it with a hammer for a few seconds. Then we just sprinkle it on top of her food. She's so zealous to get to the food that's she happy to go through the Vitamin C layer! I do not know what the proper dosage would be for your dog. Our dog weighed around 30 pounds when she started the Vitamin C therapy; she now weighs about 37 pounds. We have never changed the dosage amount though. Ask your vet how much to give. It might blow their mind but they will recover if you stick to your guns. Best wishes! CorgiMom


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## luv mi pets

Vets recommend those prescription diet foods because they have scientific studies to back them up. Why are studies so important? Because in case of a lawsuit the vet has backup and proof the product works. The S/O dog food has a high salt content to make the animal drink more. Getting the animal to drink more and urinate more often helps. Remember the solution to pollution is dilution. If we had to hold onto our urine as long as what some dogs do while their owners are away, we would all suffer from UTIs. 

Obtaining urine samples by using an ultrasound help in diagnosing whether an animal has stones. Ultrasounds also useful in deteriming the size of the stones. X-rays are also a good way to determine stone size. Some stones are so big the only way to remove them is thru surgery. You can actually feel the stones grinding together when you palpate the bladder. Gives me the queasies every time. Urinalyis should be repeated after antibotics are done to make sure the infection is gone. A culture and sensitivity can be done on the urine to determine the bacteria growth and what type of antibotics to be used if UTIs are persistant. 

For OP what concerns me is there seems to be a problem in your area with local dogs getting stones. Your water supply could be a big factor. If you own your own house, putting in a reverse osmosis water system might be the answer for all who live in your household. You might be harboring kidney stones and not realize it. I know of a lady who feeds pre-packaged raw and one of her dogs got bladder stones. She has well water and her water had a high mineral content. Since putting in the water system in she has not had any more reoccurence with stones. This has been 3 years since the surgery. 

Get the dog to increase it's water content thru can food, soaking the food in water. Give the dog more potty breaks. Need to remember quality of water is just as important as quanity. 
Also, breed seems to be a big factor for stones. Schnauzers and Shih-Tzu seem prone to them.


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## harrison72

gabry said:


> my male has the same issue crystals in his bladder, the vet ordered a prescription diet from royal canin but since it contains a bunch of grains he got loads of tear stains and it took hime 6 months of that diet to get rid of the crystals, then he got them again so this time I fed him a no grain diet (what he usually eats) but also gave him a vitamin C suppliment, crystals where gone after 2 weeks and no stains. I will stick to the vitamin C with the food of my choice that is better than that prescription diet full of corn and grains


This is really helpful as it is almost exactly what happened for me too. I was wondering about that, and this confirms what I had suspected, that it was the grains causing the staining... Vitamin C is what made the difference, but I wasn't sure. Its nice to have this kind of feedback from others. Thanks!


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## Bones' Mom

I just rescued my American Bulldog/Boxer mix three months ago. He had symtoms of lower urinary disease from day one. We went to the vet two weeks ago and we were given antibiotics for the infection and a liquid medicine I had to inject into his prepuce! I was told his urinalysis did not show crystals but that there was a lot of sediment in it. 

We went back yesterday for his check up and he wasn't any better! This different vet said something about his white blood cells and red blood cells and that the normal level for something was 6 or 7 and Bones' was 100! He also saw one crystal but couldn't tell what kind becaue of all the sediment in his sample. He gave me a stronger antibiotic to give Bones for 2 more weeks and a pain medication. He also prescribed Royal Canin Urinary SO. Up to this point I've been feeding Bones Fromm Gold which is naturally formulated with duck, chicken, lamb, whole eggs & real Wisconsin cheese. In addition, they enhance the Gold recipes with probiotics to aid digestion and salmon oil for a healthy coat.. Here is the list of protein, fat, etc.: Crude Protein 24% Min; Crude Fat 16% Min; Crude Fiber 3.5% Max; Moisture 10% Max; Omega 3 Fatty Acids0.5% Min; Omega 6 Fatty Acids 2.5% Min; Total Microorganisms 220,264 CFU/g Min. I've read here and in other places that Royal Canin is garbage, mostly corn and grain.

My question is... do I listen to the vet and give Bones the Royal Canin even though I believe it's inferior to what I've already been feeding him? The vet said if the RC works he will have to be on it for life. Or do I continue to feed him the Fromm's with minor changes such as using distilled water and cranberry and Vitamin C?


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## jenwags25

M27 said:


> He has large flaky dandruff, a dull, rough coat, very little belly hair, and was just diagnosed with crystals in his urine (and was of course recommended Science Diet by my vet.) I have tried about a dozen types of food for him with no positive results. Thanks so much; I really hope to hear from you about this.
> 
> -Melissa


ASK YOUR VET about Borage oil. I put one liquid pill into my 13 1/2 yr old Jack Russell Terrier, within a few weeks, her skin was no longer dry & itchy, her red spots went away and her coat is soft again.


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## Omari's

My poor shih Tzu female has been on antibiotics for a yr or so cause of cystals and sludge in her bladder, which we just had removed the other day for the 2nd time! The first sludge was like sand and real gritty, this sludge didn't have the sand the vet said, so he was glad of that. BUT still giving her antibiotics for 14 dys then he's going to do a culture on the urine and send it off. I wonder why he didn't do that from the start, to determine what kind of antibiotic to put her on. My female is super picky eating food, she eats boiled chicken and her brothers KD food, the vet said it was okay. Okay so anyone ever heard of this sludge? I bought that Solid Berry stuff but shes on antibiotics all the time, I can't give her that until shes off them right? Not shes on vetaprofen for inflammation and pain too. Ugh hate drugs! I want to get her to a place where I can do the natural things but how can I when shes always on drugs? I'm so frustrated!


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## tls1210

Hello

I am new to these forums - this is my first post. In July, my 12 year old, male, Pomeranian went in for his annual complete check-up. I had noticed a little blood in his urine, but his urine came back normal at his check-up. They did do an x-ray and found that he has several, rather large, stones in his bladder. They gave him a 10 day supply of antibiotics and then another 10 day supply when the first one was gone. They, also, put him on Royal Canin s/o food. I cringed when they prescribed it, but they said that it may dissolve the stones and to bring him back in 6 weeks for another x-ray. When they did the second x-ray, there was no difference in the stones, but insisted that he stay on this food for the rest of his life. They said only feed this food and he isn't even allowed any treats or anything other than this food. I am not a fan of Royal Canin - at all! They had him on another RC food for allergies2 years ago. There was never any difference in his allergies, so I took him off of the RC. Prior to ever feeding the RC, I had fed Merrick wilderness blend. Then after the RC for allergies, I tried a couple no grain foods - the last one was Taste of the wild pacific stream. He had started gaining weight, so I switched to Fromm Gold - weight management. From his skin allergies his fur was real patchy - and when I started feeding the Fromm (the allergies didn't go away, but), his fur started growing back and it was so soft and shiney. But, now, the vet wants him to eat this RC crap!. 

I have been reading this entire thread, for about an hour. It's very informative! So, my question is 1. Where do I get the berry balance, that has been mentioned, here. 2. Can I go back to the Fromm or is there another food that is good to prevent more stones? Also, I see that Distilled water is recommended, on here. I will try this. I have never given tap water - we use a Pur filter and that is where his water comes from. I, also, am going to put water or broth on his food and/or get a wet food that is the same as whatever food I decide to feed him.


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## Kyllobernese

I took Kris into the Vet when she was about 4 months old as I thought she had a UTI. Turned out she did not but had struvite crystals. The Vet phoned up the ones who sell them Science Diet and they did not recommend me feeding anything special. I read up a lot on it and if they do not have a UTI as well as the crystals, you do not have to put them on any special diet. Kris is now 9 months old and has never had any problem and I have never changed her diet. 

I know there are different types of crystals that cause stones so you should check with your Vet what kind they have and whether they have a UTI with them.


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## Omari's

Hi tls- I bought that Solid Gold Berry Balance from searching on google and just finding one that didn't have a big shipping charge, the total was $22 I think ..


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## Dog Person

You do need to find out if the Vet is treating your dog to lower or raise the PH of the urine.

If it's lowering then Berry Balance can be tried, you can get it from Amazon.


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## briteday

We are currently dealing with struvite stones in our puppy who is about 4-1/2 months old, a jack russell mix. I suspected she had a UTI when we adopted her at 4 weeks old. She just had such an erratic pattern to her urination. But the vet didn't run a UA until she was about 10 weeks old. So we're on the second round of amoxicillin, using only distilled water, and acidifying her urine with cranberry extract. Our other dogs have always been on raw diets. The puppy has not because we wanted her to adjust after we adopted her and then she's had this health issue. So now I'm thinking it's time to switch her to raw as well. 

We are supposed to run another UA next week to see if she still has crystals and white cells. With the second UA (after the first round of amox) there was only a small amount of E. coli, white cells, and struvites. The most concerning finding was granular casts. So I'm hoping we can nip this problem before it becomes a lifetime problem.


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