# What do you think its the best diet for dogs?



## bananaClip (Dec 15, 2013)

Theres so much information out there and everyone's got different experiences with their dogs. Im just trying to figure whats the best for mine. so what do you guys feed? kibble, canned, freeze dried, premade raw or homemade?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Whatever the dog does best on. There is no one single best diet that is the best for ALL DOGS and (all owners). If filet mignon was the best food in the world for dogs, it still wouldn't work for most owners.

ETA: I feed Nature's Domain grain-free salmon. We're currently in the process of switching to something else, but we haven't really decided yet.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

The best food for my dog is something grain free and which contains absolutely no chicken. 
The best food for my dog, is exactly what I give him; Simply Nourish Limited Ingredient, made with sweet potatoes and salmon. Plus his daily intake of whatever table scraps I'm offering... carrots, potatoes, steak, spinach... frozen carrots are actually a great way to fight tartar build up.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

My dog gets raw. No chicken or rabbit, doesn't do good with those. I don't have any issue with giving him veggies as treats either. He also usually gets a frozen carrot Evey night for the same reason mentioned above. No grains and no white potatoes (he usually throws it up that night or the next morning with bile, he just didn't digest white potatoes.) He's actually also having issues with carrots at the moment, started with him getting antibiotics and he threw up bile and carrot chunks the next morning, so he won't be getting them again till a couple of weeks of probiotics and kefir.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I much prefer feeding fresh food, raw or cooked or a combination of the two. Never saw a change in my dogs' condition on any sort of kibble from Iams to Science Diet to Natural Balance to Wellness to Pinnacle to EVO but on fresh they improved tremendously. Less stink, more muscle, better coats, cleaner ears and eyes and Max even got a bit less reactive and nervous which was quite a surprise.


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

What is the best diet? Whatever your dog does best on, and that you feel okay feeding.

Jasper my Allergy dog is currently on 4Health GF Beef and Potato, and he sometimes is on Natural Balance Sweet potato and Venison. Those are the only dry kibbles he can eat, and he does extremely well on them. He also gets some Natural Balance Venison wet food in each meal, along with eggs, yogurt, raw venison and his supplements. 

Luna is currently eating 4Health GF Beef and Potato. I do a rotation diet for her. Next we have a bag of Turkey GF 4Health, and then a bag of Tate of the Wild Lamb for after that. She also gets eggs, yogurt, pumpkin, raw meats, and supplements.


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## scwolek (Jan 30, 2014)

Depends on the dog and person . But I personally feel raw is the way to go and my dogs have done fantastically on it.


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## bananaClip (Dec 15, 2013)

the consensus seems to be to feed raw food... im currently feeding Orijen mixed with freeze dried. i bought a bag of 4lb frozen raw for 18 bucks.... which is pricy because it wont last very long for my puppy

I dont know for sure but my puppy seems to tolerate all the different kinds of meat. Ive fed her almost every meat produced for dogs under the sun and i didnt notice any allergic reactions which is great.

I just made breakfast for her, some frozen raw with freeze dried turkey and a raw chicken neck(not frozen). which she sorta chewed and just swallowed.... i pray that she crushed it enough to not cause problems. i also gave her the livers... i think it was livers.. wait dont chickens only have 1 liver, it was kidneys then. 

if i go 100% raw(not commercial) would i need supplements? or would it be complete and balanced if theres enough variety?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Max swallowed a chicken neck whole. I only figured it out when I cleaned up the backyard. Think, what is a chicken neck shaped like?

Packed up whole chickens are a mish mash of organs. They just dump in a couple of this and that. Biggish squishy bits are liver. The kidneys aren't removed, they are tucked in the pelvic structure.

I would give any dog fish oil and vitamin E no matter what the diet. If you can feed mostly red meats then a dog that is getting 2% of his/her actual weight probably doesn't need anything else. My dogs are perpetually on a diet so I do give some multimineral supplement to bring levels of manganese, magnesium, selenium and zinc up a bit.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

It's very important to supplement a raw diet. Even if it is extremely well rounded.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I think the best food for dogs is the one that 1. the dog *truly* does well on and 2. fits the owner's budget and lifestyle.

I have 4 dogs and a cat. 
Echo, pwd, eats rotating kibbles, has done very well with Petguard Lifespan especially, and ok on Fromm grain frees, but not awesome, ok with canned added in, did HORRIBLE on The Honest Kitchen and Volhard NDF. Also ok with RMBs, cooked meat/eggs, yogurt, sardines, etc. similar

Darby, Bichon, eats the same, did terrible on TOTW ,Natures Variety and Nature's Logic. She can eat raw, cooked and canned and the above add-ins

Cookie, chihuahua, same, but generally ½ canned ½ kibble seems to work best for her

Jack, poodle, all canned, very little variations, or else cannon butt occurs. He can tolerate raw carrots, broccoli stalks or cauliflower stalks for treats and is ok with string cheese for training treats, but that's about it for Mr. Super sensitive man. 

I have fed ALL ways except vegetarian. Raw with grain, raw with no grain but with veg/starch, PMR, commercial ground raw (many brands), home cooked, premixes, kibbles, cans, dehydrated! And combinations of all those. Aside from poop and the occasional yeasty ear, I've not noticed a big huge difference among feeding all these different things. 

I prefer feeding kibble/canned with fresh add-ins, though. works for my budget and lifestyle. 

Most of all, please listen to your dog for guidance on the "right" diet for him.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

bananaClip said:


> the consensus seems to be to feed raw food... im currently feeding Orijen mixed with freeze dried. i bought a bag of 4lb frozen raw for 18 bucks.... which is pricy because it wont last very long for my puppy


The consensus is not really feeding raw but works best for your dog. 

But I have to agree that if feeding raw is the best for your dog but is too expensive and/or not something that fits you then it's not really going to be feasible. I personally wouldn't own a dog if I had to feed raw but I am willing to feed higher quality dry food and if need be supplement with cooked chicken, beef, pork and eggs or quality canned food. I fed Zoey Orijen and she didn't do well on it, she's on Annamaet now and doing great. I fed my last dog lower quality foods - Nutro, Science Diet, Purina and Authority and she did well on it. Read the threads where some are passionate about how great dry foods that split ingredients such as corn are and that's what people should be feeding; watch the food leaving shelves at dog food stores like Petsmart and the lower quality foods tend to fly off the shelves.

Feed what is best for all involved to make owning the dog an enjoyable experience.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

BostonBullMama said:


> It's very important to supplement a raw diet. Even if it is extremely well rounded.


I think it's important to supplement *any* diet - dry dog foods are not as complete & balanced as people believe them to be.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

I switched to raw 4 wks ago after trying all the supposed top of the line dry foods; etc not one single dry food gave me the results I'm seeing in just 4wks of a raw diet.

The difference is amazing - and, it's cheaper then Merrick and a WHOLE lot cheaper then Orijen.

Right now I'm purchasing 5lb chub rolls of chicken/bone from Bravo; which is an excellent quality company and the chub rolls are a lot more affordable then the patties or nuggets. 

After seeing the difference, I will never go back to dry dog foods


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Woofie2 said:


> I think it's important to supplement *any* diet - dry dog foods are not as complete & balanced as people believe them to be.


Supplement with what? Overdoing it on vitamins and minerals can be just as bad/worse than a deficiency. I would agree with adding, say, omega 3s or something like that but giving a multivitamin/mineral supplement (for instance) can cause some serious issues. Commercial foods already have too much of certain nutrients---notably calcium.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Supplement with what? Overdoing it on vitamins and minerals can be just as bad/worse than a deficiency. I would agree with adding, say, omega 3s or something like that but giving a multivitamin/mineral supplement (for instance) can cause some serious issues. Commercial foods already have too much of certain nutrients---notably calcium.


I meant with real foods - dry foods, IMHO should be supplemented with the addition of any real, fresh food that can be added in.

Yes...you're correct, dry foods contain too many synthetic vitamins/minerals that it's beyond scary.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I personally feel best feeding what their digestive system is designed for and what they are biologically designed to eat and thrive on, which is a raw diet. I do prey model raw for both dogs and both cats, love the changes I've seen, love how healthy they are, and am happy with it. That said, I recommend plenty of dry food brands to clients and friends who ask for recommendations. While I'm not a fan of processed foods, they are convenient, easy, and most dogs do well enough on the right varieties of the right brands. I will encourage people to at least be a step up from corn based grocery store and vet brands which have super sketchy ingredients. Food affects behavior. Corn is a seratonin inhibitor. "Corn makes it harder for the amino acids necessary for the production of seratonin to pass through the blood-brain barrier, it is not conductive to a calm state of mind." If your dog is stressed, anxious, hyper, and eating Science Diet or Purina or such, I'll recommend changing their food. Typically I recommend a few specific brands I know a lot of peoples' dogs do well on, and then link the dog food advisor 5 star foods list.


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## bananaClip (Dec 15, 2013)

I switched cold turkey to a homemade diet for my 5 month old puppy and now shes not regular.
she would go 3 to 4 times a day when she was eating kibble mixed with freeze dried.
she has been eating what i cook for her the past 3 days and she only went 3 times... she didnt go last night and she did not go this morning
i am a tad concerned... is this how it is when she eats homemade food?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Where did you get your recipe for feeding a pup home made food? You really have to mind all the vitamins and minerals for a puppy as they need what the adult needs possibly in a lot fewer calories.

Are you feeding enough food? The volume of the home made food needed could be greater than the volume of the previous diet by so you need to feed more of it.

How much fiber is in the home made food? Possibly it is a lot less than was in the kibble+freeze dried. Sassy, a sick geriatric dog, ate chicken and white rice and had a poop nearly as small as Max who is raw fed as the food was only 1-2% fiber.

Unless your pup is constipated I wouldn't be concerned with frequency of stools though. It bugs me that Ginger used to poop 2x a week but her gut was getting used to the smaller volume of raw and she wasn't constipated at all.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

When my dog finishes this last bag of kibble, we are going RAW. I think pre packaged is fine, but would prefer fresh raw if possible. There's just too much going wrong with canned/kibble these days...and dogs are meant to eat raw anyway in my opinion. But if you do decide on raw/prepackaged, make sure to do your homework because if not done correctly it can cause a dog more harm than good


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## bananaClip (Dec 15, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> Where did you get your recipe for feeding a pup home made food? You really have to mind all the vitamins and minerals for a puppy as they need what the adult needs possibly in a lot fewer calories.
> 
> Are you feeding enough food? The volume of the home made food needed could be greater than the volume of the previous diet by so you need to feed more of it.
> 
> ...


I did some reading online but my diet is not nutritionally formulated by a vet. i see it as eating for myself but as healthy as can be.
i made a big pot of stew yesterday. i had yams as the base, theres beef liver, 93%lean ground beef, chicken breast, celery, carrots, kale and spinach
i add a multiv and calcium supplement to her food also a hip&joint formula

things are good with her again!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Might not be a popular opinion here, but I do believe that MOST dogs will do fantastically on a raw diet.

All my fosters and my own dog have done fantastically on raw, and all of the customers I have served who are feeding their dogs raw have seen good changes.

Mind you, the reason why they start raw is because they often have issues on kibble/cans which is why they try it. If a dog is doing great on kibble, it is not very likely that someone will want to switch... so that may contribute to why I have had such positive experiences.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I was interested to see how my nearly 14 year old Max's requirements are different from a human's. I put his actual NRC requirements into a nutrition website, http://nutritiondata.self.com, and see that he needs as much phosphorus, calcium, zinc, copper, selenium and many of the B vitamins as a human. Even though he is about 1/4 the size of an adult human he needs 1/2 the grams of protein as a human and that is a MUST, more protein is much better for him. And he needs all that in 1/3 the calories of an adult human! While a dog can eat most of the same foods as we do the ratios need to be quite different.

Feeding a pup the same healthy foods as you get in the same ratios isn't the best you can do for your pup. At the very least today put more calcium in her bowl. Add enough elemental calcium to come up to about 1000mg per pound of food. The base of the stew needs to be the meat, egg or fish with a little liver and use about 1/4 veggies instead.

There are a lot of good dog food recipes online and some really horrible ones. I don't think any are actually dangerous fed short term but I wouldn't want to stick to something I came up with on my own without a lot more research. Have you read this site?
http://dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html
Here is a recipe from a vet.
http://www.susanwynn.com/Homemade_Diet_Recipe.php
One I probably would consider but would use a lot less rice. In fact Max was eating that for a month or so minus the oils, he was just getting fish oil.
http://nutrition.tripawds.com/2010/03/23/high-protien-low-fat-dog-food-recipe-from-the-canine-ancestral-diet/

While pups clearly need more nutrition per pound of pup than adult dogs raw feeders just get the food the future adult will eat into the pup by feeding the same food in many more meals. If I was feeding a pup that is exactly what I would do rather than reformulate the diet repeatedly as the pup grows which is what NRC would have one do. Kibble works for pups after all and one doesn't switch kibble monthly. If I estimate my pup would need 1 pound of food a day then I would feed that pound over 3-4 meals in other words.


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## cprcheetah (Feb 3, 2014)

For my crew I feed raw and I feel it is the optimal diet for *most* dogs. It was a life saver for my chihuahua she was horribly allergic to most kibbles even premium ones and especially the ones from the vet (even the hypoallergenic ones). She was on 8 different meds before raw. She is now on 1 for hydrocephalus. I have been feeding her raw for 3 & 1/2 years now and she is doing amazing on it. I recently switched 2 of my kitties as well and the changes in them are already amazing (6 weeks for one and 3 weeks for the other). I want to switch the rest of my kitties to raw as well (3 more). I do know some dogs who can't handle the raw and do very well on grain free diets.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Yup, less waste with good food!
Works in humans, too!!!!!


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Jewel will be starting raw as soon as this bag of kibble is done. She does fine on kibble, but I want to try raw to see if it will help her lose some weight and clean her teeth. Plus, it is a lot easier for me to get raw food than high quality kibble since I don't drive and don't really want to lug 50 pound bag of kibble on the bus.


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## muffinpants (Feb 24, 2014)

Woofie2 said:


> I meant with real foods - dry foods, IMHO should be supplemented with the addition of any real, fresh food that can be added in.
> 
> Yes...you're correct, dry foods contain too many synthetic vitamins/minerals that it's beyond scary.


Just out of curiosity, what kind of real, fresh foods are we talking about? I want my dog to be the healthiest she can be, however most things give her horrific gas. I suspect the culprit was chicken, so she does not receive any food or treats with that in it now. Though it may have just been the brand.. we started with the petsmart brand 'premium' with chicken as the protein source, which we finished the large bag and she was quite gassy with soft stools once every couple of days. Then I tried the lamb of the same brand and it stayed about the same. So now she is eating Precise sensicare- which has lamb and purified chicken fat- she loves it and has done amazingly on it. Her gas has decreased dramatically, she still has the occasional soft stool, but I figure that is normal. But still, my boyfriend ALWAYS knows when I have snuck her a table scrap because she gets gassy again! She gets a variety of dog biscuits and dentahex dental chews, as well as lamb lung training treats.. oh and dynamo dog tummy treats. She does really well with what she is on now, and we get compliments all the time on how shiny and beautiful her coat is. Does it sound like she still needs more variety if she is doing well? I don't want to NOT try to find her something that could be potentially beneficial just because it gives her gas..


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Like most other posters, I think the best diet is one the dog does well on, and that the owner is comfortable feeding.

I would like to feed raw, but at this point the cost and convenience just aren't in its favor. Maybe some day I will switch, but right now my dog is doing well on a diet of high quality kibble (usually grain free, and switched between proteins), and a free dried mix that I add meat and supplements to. I try to feed a variety and keep the ingredients high quality.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

A friend of mine gave me a book
'Foods pets die for' by Ann Martin
I will never feed processed food again after reading that book ....based on 10 yr of research!


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

d_ray said:


> Jewel will be starting raw as soon as this bag of kibble is done. She does fine on kibble, but I want to try raw to see if it will help her lose some weight and clean her teeth. Plus, it is a lot easier for me to get raw food than high quality kibble since I don't drive and don't really want to lug 50 pound bag of kibble on the bus.


If the raw diet isn't balanced correctly, it could actually be pretty bad on a dog's teeth, make sure you give enough bone.


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## scwolek (Jan 30, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> If the raw diet isn't balanced correctly, it could actually be pretty bad on a dog's teeth, make sure you give enough bone.


Even a poorly balanced raw diet isn't as harmful for the teeth as kibble so I'm not sure about this comment. Kibble is AWFUL for the teeth.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

I wish they had like' and 'dislike' buttons! 
Kibble is aweful for the teeth!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> If the raw diet isn't balanced correctly, it could actually be pretty bad on a dog's teeth, make sure you give enough bone.


Improper balance will have very little effect on the condition of a dog's teeth. It has more to do with what kind of bones are given in the meals to clean them.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

bananaClip said:


> the consensus seems to be to feed raw food... im currently feeding Orijen mixed with freeze dried. i bought a bag of 4lb frozen raw for 18 bucks.... which is pricy because it wont last very long for my puppy
> 
> I dont know for sure but my puppy seems to tolerate all the different kinds of meat. Ive fed her almost every meat produced for dogs under the sun and i didnt notice any allergic reactions which is great.
> 
> ...


Most raw feeders say if you're feeding a 100% raw and balanced diet then there's no need for supplements, however UNLESS you're feeding a 100% WHOLE prey diet then you may want to supplement, because when feeding a "normal" raw diet we or only imitating what wild dogs would eat, so in this case supplements are helpful with filling in the gaps.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

taquitos said:


> Improper balance will have very little effect on the condition of a dog's teeth. It has more to do with what kind of bones are given in the meals to clean them.


 Generally MOST any type of bone will help clean teeth. It's the action of the bone scrapping against the teeth that clean them.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

scwolek said:


> Even a poorly balanced raw diet isn't as harmful for the teeth as kibble so I'm not sure about this comment. Kibble is AWFUL for the teeth.


 I totally agree and was not implying that kibble is good for teeth. 
My point is that feeding a raw diet without bones to clean teeth would most certainly result in tartar and plaque build up.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I totally agree and was not implying that kibble is good for teeth.
> My point is that feeding a raw diet without bones to clean teeth would most certainly result in tartar and plaque build up.


Well my experience with my last dog says this isn't true for all dogs. Maggie ate kibble and later in life cheap canned dog food and cooked chicken mixed in her kibble. She also had Milk Bones or the Petsmart equivalent and a Dingo rawhide every weekday.

At her last Vet visit which was 3 or 4 months before she died the Vet commented on how clean her teeth were and what good physical condition she was in. Oh, and she had all her teeth and never had issues.

She didn't get anything raw or antlers or anything but what I mentioned. It's only one dog and it will be interesting to see how Zoey fairs with her teeth, she definitely chews on more stuff than Maggie did.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Generally MOST any type of bone will help clean teeth. It's the action of the bone scrapping against the teeth that clean them.


Not really. If you give a 90 lbs dog a quail, it's not really going to do much for cleaning lol.

More complicated bones that require them to take time chewing/gnawing will clean teeth much more effectively than something that can be finished in one or two bites.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

taquitos said:


> Not really. If you give a 90 lbs dog a quail, it's not really going to do much for cleaning lol.
> 
> More complicated bones that require them to take time chewing/gnawing will clean teeth much more effectively than something that can be finished in one or two bites.


NOTICE I said MOST any type of bone, assuming most people would know that if the bones are so small that the dog can chomp them down in a couple of bites, then It wouldn't do much for cleaning teeth.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Dog Person said:


> Well my experience with my last dog says this isn't true for all dogs. Maggie ate kibble and later in life cheap canned dog food and cooked chicken mixed in her kibble. She also had Milk Bones or the Petsmart equivalent and a Dingo rawhide every weekday.
> 
> At her last Vet visit which was 3 or 4 months before she died the Vet commented on how clean her teeth were and what good physical condition she was in. Oh, and she had all her teeth and never had issues.
> 
> She didn't get anything raw or antlers or anything but what I mentioned. It's only one dog and it will be interesting to see how Zoey fairs with her teeth, she definitely chews on more stuff than Maggie did.


I'm pretty sure that the hard kibble, milk bones and rawhide did contribute to teeth cleaning.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I'm pretty sure that the hard kibble, milk bones and rawhide did contribute to teeth cleaning.


I just realized you weren't the person who said that kibble was awful for a dog's teeth but was agreeing that kibble is bad for a dog's teeth. I don't understand any comment about kibble being bad for a dog's teeth - it is kind of hard but I would imagine not as hard as bone and my limited experience suggests that what my dog chewed on kept her teeth clean. I will agree that one dog does not equal that it works on every dog but I will also say that eating kibble may not be as bad for a dog's teeth as some may want to believe.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Dog Person said:


> I just realized you weren't the person who said that kibble was awful for a dog's teeth but was agreeing that kibble is bad for a dog's teeth. I don't understand any comment about kibble being bad for a dog's teeth - it is kind of hard but I would imagine not as hard as bone and my limited experience suggests that what my dog chewed on kept her teeth clean. I will agree that one dog does not equal that it works on every dog but I will also say that eating kibble may not be as bad for a dog's teeth as some may want to believe.


 Before deciding to switch to raw recently, I fed all of my dogs kibble over the last 14 years and never had any problems with their teeth. The ingredients in kibble MAY not be good for their teeth but the texture and firmness definitely aid in cleaning the teeth.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I totally agree and was not implying that kibble is good for teeth.
> My point is that feeding a raw diet without bones to clean teeth would most certainly result in tartar and plaque build up.


Some of the ingredients in kibble are most likely not good for dogs teeth.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think it might depend how the dog eats the kibble. Penny chews her kibble and she always has slimy crumbs sticking to her teeth and she gets brown crud on her teeth a lot. The boys crunch their kibble but don't chew and their teeth are cleaner.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Some companies put stuff in kibble that cleans teeth.
"Ingredients: Lamb, Brewers Rice, Oat Flour, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Salt, *Sodium Hexametaphosphate*, Fructooligosaccharides, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), DL-Methionine, Flax Meal, Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Vitamin E Supplement, Brewers Dried Yeast, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract."
http://www.eukanuba-scienceonline.com/en-US/product/adult-natural-lamb-rice-formula.jspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18309857


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> NOTICE I said MOST any type of bone, assuming most people would know that if the bones are so small that the dog can chomp them down in a couple of bites, then It wouldn't do much for cleaning teeth.


Well anything that a dog chews does help clean teeth. There was a study done that showed that even when dogs chew their kibble it helped clean teeth. That does not mean that it cleans teeth EFFECTIVELY. Less complicated bones, smaller pieces, etc. all make a bone not very effective when used for teeth cleaning. It's also not just bones that help clean teeth in a raw diet. It's also the action of tearing/ripping through the meat as well. There are enzymes int he meat that help clean teeth.

I find it very irksome when people say just giving dogs bones will clean their teeth. Yes, it definitely will help but it also depends on what types of bones you give, and it also depends on your own dog. My dog gets RMBs that are fairly large (he's 7 lbs so it's not hard to find bones big enough for him lol), but he still gets plaque/tartar unless I use a scaler and use enzymatic toothpaste on a regular basis and it's because he just has crappy genes (he's a puppy mill rescue). I found his teeth to be the cleanest when I was giving him neck bones from larger animals (pork, and beef, but I stopped giving beef bones because they're just too hard even for some larger dogs). When I fed larger poultry (turkey, duck) and pork riblets, the condition of his teeth degraded significantly.

The conclusion being that there are different bones that are better at cleaning teeth. Your dog chewing on kibble, chewing Nylabones, etc. can even help clean teeth so you saying "most bones" do is true but really not something that needs to be emphasized.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I think it might depend how the dog eats the kibble. Penny chews her kibble and she always has slimy crumbs sticking to her teeth and she gets brown crud on her teeth a lot. The boys crunch their kibble but don't chew and their teeth are cleaner.


Yup. I think it was one of the big name companies... I don't remember which (one of those that have a veterinary line), where they conducted a study and it showed that the more dogs chew, the cleaner their teeth, hence why the dental formula kibble are of larger size


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think teeth is mostly genetics too. Summer's teeth are bad, as are her sister's. She gets chews all the time (bully sticks and RMBs among others) and has since I've had her (4 years). Some of it may just be the fact that I got her at 4 years with awful teeth and it's been fighting a losing battle. She had to have 9 pulled this year.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

taquitos said:


> Yup. I think it was one of the big name companies... I don't remember which (one of those that have a veterinary line), where they conducted a study and it showed that the more dogs chew, the cleaner their teeth, hence why the dental formula kibble are of larger size


Haha, and I was saying that Penny DOES chew and her teeth are scuzzier . Maybe it's just the way her mouth is built but she always has slimy kibble crumbs stuck around her back teeth. Having bad teeth could be genetic too but I do think the kibble crumbs have something to do with it. 

On the other subject, chicken quarters do not clean her teeth effectively (but at least no kibble crumbs are left), but beef ribs do.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I think teeth is mostly genetics too. Summer's teeth are bad, as are her sister's. She gets chews all the time (bully sticks and RMBs among others) and has since I've had her (4 years). Some of it may just be the fact that I got her at 4 years with awful teeth and it's been fighting a losing battle. She had to have 9 pulled this year.


D: Poor Summer  Yeah, Meeko's teeth were great in the beginning when I was feeding more bone, and he was going in for regular groomings. I suspect that they were scraping plaque/tartar at the groomers for me. He is eating 10% bone now, not nearly as much as he was getting before when he first started, and I have noticed more frequent plaque/tartar buildup. I do think genetics play a huge part of it, for sure. My coworker has a dog from the same mill as me, and they both have bad teeth (as in plaque/tartar builds up quickly). Her other dog, though, rarely gets plaque/tartar. Only recently (at 6 years old) has he started developing a little bit of plaque/tartar but it was because he got a crown recently because of a tooth fracture. As a result he can't get bones larger than chicken bones.



Willowy said:


> Haha, and I was saying that Penny DOES chew and her teeth are scuzzier . Maybe it's just the way her mouth is built but she always has slimy kibble crumbs stuck around her back teeth. Having bad teeth could be genetic too but I do think the kibble crumbs have something to do with it.
> 
> On the other subject, chicken quarters do not clean her teeth effectively (but at least no kibble crumbs are left), but beef ribs do.


Oops lol should have read that better! Yeah I am sure it's like us eating crackers/cookies and the residue sticking and causing rot, plaque buildup, etc.

I wonder if I should start giving beef bones again now... Meeko's teeth were much cleaner when I gave him beef neck bones... but I am so worried about him chipping a tooth :/


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mia is almost 5 and has very little plaque buildup but is finally getting a little. By this age Summer had had 2 dentals. One of our main issues was she had an impacted tooth and a cracked molar that was bad so they had to pull the ones around them.  She could have cracked her molar on anything, she gets a lot of chews/bones. I'm pretty sure she cracked it on a raw bone.... that I gave to help clean her teeth. *sigh* Dammed if you do, damned if you don't. She has no front teeth at all anymore and no molars on her left side. She still gums her bully sticks and raw bones to death lol. She seems to be getting along without them but I feel bad. 

Funnily enough Mia is the one born missing teeth, teeth growing in backwards and sideways, and with really tiny teeth so you'd think she'd have more issues.

Toy breeds just have teeth issues in general, unfortunately.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Mia is almost 5 and has very little plaque buildup but is finally getting a little. By this age Summer had had 2 dentals. One of our main issues was she had an impacted tooth and a cracked molar that was bad so they had to pull the ones around them.  She could have cracked her molar on anything, she gets a lot of chews/bones. I'm pretty sure she cracked it on a raw bone.... that I gave to help clean her teeth. *sigh* Dammed if you do, damned if you don't. She has no front teeth at all anymore and no molars on her left side. She still gums her bully sticks and raw bones to death lol. She seems to be getting along without them but I feel bad.
> 
> Funnily enough Mia is the one born missing teeth, teeth growing in backwards and sideways, and with really tiny teeth so you'd think she'd have more issues.
> 
> Toy breeds just have teeth issues in general, unfortunately.


Yeah it's such a pain. I have tried everything for Meeko (I currently have LEBA II which I stopped using because well he just hates it so it's difficult to use it on him, and regular chicken flavored tooth paste, as well as PetzLife enzymatic gel), and while I do see a bit of an improvement, he still gets plaque/tartar buildup ugh.

I brush his teeth everyday and he gets raw so it helps I am sure but it's still an ongoing battle because he's a poorly bred toy breed.

I don't even really want to think about how his teeth would have been if he had been on kibble/wet. IMO raw does help to alleviate the problem to an extent, but it's just... ugh. so frustrating haha.

Someone a while back tried to tell me that it was all food that made a difference, but I see now that it isn't, because Meeko is getting a balanced PMR diet and he still gets plaque/tartar buildup. He rarely gets processed stuff. The most processed stuff he gets is dehydrated/freeze dried/oven baked treats.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I use Leba III and it helps... if I remember it. The dogs hate it though. I've used PetzLife and not sure if I saw a difference. If you figure out a magic solution, let me know.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

taquitos said:


> Well anything that a dog chews does help clean teeth. There was a study done that showed that even when dogs chew their kibble it helped clean teeth. That does not mean that it cleans teeth EFFECTIVELY. Less complicated bones, smaller pieces, etc. all make a bone not very effective when used for teeth cleaning. It's also not just bones that help clean teeth in a raw diet. It's also the action of tearing/ripping through the meat as well. There are enzymes int he meat that help clean teeth.
> 
> I find it very irksome when people say just giving dogs bones will clean their teeth. Yes, it definitely will help but it also depends on what types of bones you give, and it also depends on your own dog. My dog gets RMBs that are fairly large (he's 7 lbs so it's not hard to find bones big enough for him lol), but he still gets plaque/tartar unless I use a scaler and use enzymatic toothpaste on a regular basis and it's because he just has crappy genes (he's a puppy mill rescue). I found his teeth to be the cleanest when I was giving him neck bones from larger animals (pork, and beef, but I stopped giving beef bones because they're just too hard even for some larger dogs). When I fed larger poultry (turkey, duck) and pork riblets, the condition of his teeth degraded significantly.
> 
> The conclusion being that there are different bones that are better at cleaning teeth. Your dog chewing on kibble, chewing Nylabones, etc. can even help clean teeth so you saying "most bones" do is true but really not something that needs to be emphasized.


Stop trying to pick apart every little thing that I say because we have a conflicting discussion on another topic. You did not say anything different than what I said so why comment on my post? ?? Some people should grow up, really.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I use Leba III and it helps... if I remember it. The dogs hate it though. I've used PetzLife and not sure if I saw a difference. If you figure out a magic solution, let me know.


Haha I will. I use Leba III for my cat now because he's the only one who will not run away from me when I bring it out lol! PetzLife I *think* is working, but it's only been two to three weeks so we shall see.



Alapaha_Lover said:


> Stop trying to pick apart every little thing that I say because we have a conflicting discussion on another topic. You did not say anything different than what I said so why comment on my post? ?? Some people should grow up, really.


I was actually under the impression that you wanted to discuss this topic.

First of all, you gave incorrect information -- You said "If the raw diet isn't balanced correctly, it could actually be pretty bad on a dog's teeth, make sure you give enough bone". When you wrote this, I was under the impression that you meant that an improperly balanced raw diet is the cause of bad teeth. That is very different from saying that raw bones help clean teeth. Two completely different statements. Improper balance of NUTRITION is different from a dog not getting enough stuff to chew on. The AMOUNT of bone is different from what KIND of bone as well. If that is not what you intended to say, then sorry but you just didn't express yourself correctly so I had trouble understanding.

And then after that for some reason you felt the need to reply when I corrected above said info. based on my personal experience feeding raw, and switching hundreds of other dogs onto raw (I worked at a pet boutique specializing in raw diets).

That is my only gripe. That, and saying most bones, again, is just wrong. But that in itself is a completely different discussion, which I was ready to talk about, but then you felt the need to somehow designate my maturity level over an online forum lol. And please do not call me immature when I have stayed level headed throughout this entire discussion, without ever having to feel like I needed to resort to taking personal jabs at people


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

taquitos said:


> Haha I will. I use Leba III for my cat now because he's the only one who will not run away from me when I bring it out lol! PetzLife I *think* is working, but it's only been two to three weeks so we shall see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Well forgive me if you misunderstood what I was trying to say, and yes I do think it's quite immature to follow me from thread to thread arguing about my opinion. I'm not going to sit here and post to you every website at which I found information stating why not to mix kibble with raw. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands so you could just Google it for yourself.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Well forgive me if you misunderstood what I was trying to say, and yes I do think it's quite immature to follow me from thread to thread arguing about my opinion. I'm not going to sit here and post to you every website at which I found information stating why not to mix kibble with raw. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands so you could just Google it for yourself.


Actually raw feeding is what I am most interested on in terms of threads in the Dog Food forum, it has nothing to do with having some sort of a bizarre personal vendetta against you. As a person who only feeds raw to her four pets, I don't have much to input in terms of kibble, nor is it of interest to me.

No one is "following" you lol people here are just trying to understand what you mean.

So if you don't want to sit here and post links then at least take the time to explain why you came to the conclusion instead of just saying "because research" lol. An opinion is not worth anything if you cannot discuss it reasonably.

Also, you came onto an online forum. Exactly what were you expecting by commenting? People here discuss, debate, etc. That is why we are on here. If you dislike being questioned, or even discussing your own opinion, I am not sure why you would even bother commenting.

ETA:
Also out of the three threads that you are currently commenting on, I believe on two of them I had commented before you had said anything... so I am not sure why you would think I am "following" you lol.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

taquitos said:


> Actually raw feeding is what I am most interested on in terms of threads in the Dog Food forum, it has nothing to do with having some sort of a bizarre personal vendetta against you. As a person who only feeds raw to her four pets, I don't have much to input in terms of kibble, nor is it of interest to me.
> 
> No one is "following" you lol people here are just trying to understand what you mean.
> 
> ...


 Why post a link when you will still have something else to say, like" oh that's not a reliable source" that's one comment I got after posting a link. And I don't mind an educated convo or debate but I did not join this forum to be ganged up on by a few "no it alls" and then bashed for my opinion for the past 5 hours.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Why post a link when you will still have something else to say, like" oh that's not a reliable source" that's one comment I got after posting a link. And I don't mind an educated convo or debate but I did not join this forum to be ganged up on by a few "no it alls" and then bashed for my opinion for the past 5 hours.


For the last time NO ONE IS BASHING YOU. We are actually curious!

If there is info. out there that shows that it is a problem to mix the two at all, then I would genuinely like to know BECAUSE THIS ISN'T A STUPID DISCUSSION TRYING TO INFLATE SOMEONE'S EGO. If there is info out there that tells me not to do it, and I find it reasonable, then I would LISTEN and take the advice because I WOULDN'T WANT TO CAUSE HARM TO MY OWN PETS OR OTHERS PETS.

Like jesus, get over yourself! Why are you so defensive? I am finding this discussion increasingly frustrating due to YOUR immaturity. Hooooly crap.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

taquitos said:


> Actually raw feeding is what I am most interested on in terms of threads in the Dog Food forum, it has nothing to do with having some sort of a bizarre personal vendetta against you. As a person who only feeds raw to her four pets, I don't have much to input in terms of kibble, nor is it of interest to me.
> 
> No one is "following" you lol people here are just trying to understand what you mean.
> 
> ...


You're not "actually curious" for the health of your pets, you just stated that you feed an ONLY raw diet to your dogs. Now please leave me alone, thanks in advance


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> You're not "actually curious" for the health of your pets, you just stated that you feed an ONLY raw diet to your dogs. Now please leave me alone, thanks in advance


"My own pets or others' pets". READ.

I think you need to understand that I also foster dogs, whom I cannot afford to feed raw to 100%... which I mentioned in another thread (the foster who is sensitive). She was on Orijen.

See now YOU are nitpicking. This is so frustrating I cannot deal anymore lol. HAVE A NICE DAY.


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## TheBigAnimation (Jan 21, 2013)

Maybe no one here has financial crisis going on in their families and are super wealthy right now? I guess its just me, but I cant afford to feed all organic meats to my dogs. ;;u;; Seriously, my parents wouldnt allow it. I for one, am kind of in objection to it anyway. And, what about fruits, vegetables and other addtives into a raw diet? Has anyone ever discussed that? Like cooked potato or raw potato even? Or even shredded carrot, celery, apple, etc. 

Since dogs are not from wolves, at least mine arent there is no way no how...
(or at least its not proven, so dont be running your mouths stating that it is, what proof do you actually have that dogs originate from wolves?) (_probably shouldnt have asked that_.) 

I believe that they can actually be considered omnivorious in some cases, so that being said I can feed them banana, apple, blueberry etc. Right? Just gotta find the right fruits to feed. I want them to get a good meal, but I dont want them to have anything to hurt us financially because especially right now, with my parents worries. 

So stop pressuring other people into raw dieting like your some certified veterinatian. Its annoying. No one should make a major change in their dogs routine without consulting their vet, for anything. (At least if its from kibble to RAW.) But, if you have some experience within vet-medical stuff then I apologize but I'm sure most of you are just dog lovers like I am. So can we just get along?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

TheBigAnimation said:


> Maybe no one here has financial crisis going on in their families and are super wealthy right now? I guess its just me, but I cant afford to feed all organic meats to my dogs. ;;u;; Seriously, my parents wouldnt allow it. I for one, am kind of in objection to it anyway. And, what about fruits, vegetables and other addtives into a raw diet? Has anyone ever discussed that? Like cooked potato or raw potato even? Or even shredded carrot, celery, apple, etc.
> 
> Since dogs are not from wolves, at least mine arent there is no way no how...
> (or at least its not proven, so dont be running your mouths stating that it is, what proof do you actually have that dogs originate from wolves?) (_probably shouldnt have asked that_.)
> ...


No one says you HAVE to feed your dogs raw. As someone who had owned large dogs in the past, it can be very expensive to try and feed raw. 

I have a small dog now and he gets about 1/2 and 1/2. If I add another dog in, they will have to split my raw budget. Just the way it is. 

I personally think there is no "best food" or "best diet". You should few your dog what works for him.

All good dog foods re good but not all good dog foods are good for all dogs.


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## TheBigAnimation (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh I know! I wasn't implying that you have to or not... I just - sometimes these comments come off a little bit pressuring is all? Don't you think? I do think though maybe sometimes I can feed a bit of fresh food into their bowls here and there (and not scraps, I'm talking about actually putting in non-fatty ingredients without the human additives like butter, salt, etc. Example: things you would add on a baked potato - just without the stuff from the... sour cream?) If you get what I mean? Oop breakfast is ready gotta eat!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If you add something, make it meat or eggs. . .kibble is carby enough without adding more, and fruits are really expensive! If you have any kinds of leftovers/scraps (not just fat or gristle though) you could give them those, even fruits and veggies. I never throw anything away because the dogs get it (unless it's heavy on the onion or something else that's harmful). I think adding fresh foods whenever you can is a great idea. Like I said, I can't feed my pets all raw right now (combo of time, money, sourcing, and storage space) but I do sneak in some raw meat whenever I can, and eggs fairly frequently because eggs are cheap and small . Small diet improvements are better than no improvement .


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I often give Merlin whole eggs after they "expire". I also let him lick the bowl after I scramble eggs. He hates fruits and veggies so those are a no. Any freezer burned meat goes into the dog part of the freezer. Any leftover meat that no one wants goes into the dog bowl unless it's super seasony or oniony. 

Feeding fresh supplementally isn't hard at all. I actually prefer it than throwing all that stuff out. 

Sometimes I'll give him a bit of steak fat too because why not.


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## TheBigAnimation (Jan 21, 2013)

We're gonna have angel hair pasta with some our own human stuff in it and potatoes and yumm... Momma bought lots of potaotes the other day while grocery shopping - so we're gonna share with the other pets. Did you know that hamsters can have pasta and ptoates as long as its cooked? And also, non-cooked pasta makes a great chew toy for hamsters~ Since Potatoes and Pasta have a lot of startch momma is gonna make it angel haired pasta and go easy on the butter and garlic... We'll add in some shirmps - I"M DIGRESSING XD!

My point IS -

The dogs are going to get cooked potato and pasta but without the garlic, butter and sauces tonight. 
Phineas, my hamster is going to get a small nickle sized piece of my cooked potatoe without the sauces or addtives - but just the potato because he doesnt need TOO many stratches, even if he cant get diabetes (you still wanna be safe). 
And Pudge will get one strand of Angel Hair pasta, and Puffin will get two strands. 

I only want to make sure that I can give all my pets a little something to eat, like if my dogs can eat it too and my hamsters can eat it, that works out great that means we're not loosing any money and we dont have to buy anything extra. There are a lot of things though my hamsters can eat and even my bird (which I'm bringing home next week) can eat the same. I just have to research. It all works out that way ^^

Ever thought of stuff like that? Thats why having things like hamsters and birds as well make it so much easier, when people dont even realize it :3.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

You -can- feed dogs pasta and potatoes, but I wouldn't do it on a regular basis. That isn't a nutritionally complete diet for a dog and is a LOT of carbs.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

TheBigAnimation said:


> Maybe no one here has financial crisis going on in their families and are super wealthy right now? I guess its just me, but I cant afford to feed all organic meats to my dogs. ;;u;; Seriously, my parents wouldnt allow it. I for one, am kind of in objection to it anyway. And, what about fruits, vegetables and other addtives into a raw diet? Has anyone ever discussed that? Like cooked potato or raw potato even? Or even shredded carrot, celery, apple, etc.
> 
> Since dogs are not from wolves, at least mine arent there is no way no how...
> (or at least its not proven, so dont be running your mouths stating that it is, what proof do you actually have that dogs originate from wolves?) (_probably shouldnt have asked that_.)
> ...


For your Information I am a certified veterinary assistant since 2007. And I'm not pushing anything on anyone, I can state whatever I want as long as I feel it's in the best interest of the dog. And I would like to "just get along" I'm not the one who got so out of control. Some people are upset because I have a different opinion than they do, which I am entitled to. I'd also like to add that I PREVIOUSLY bred miniature schnauzers from 2006-2008 UNTIL I REALIZED THAT THERE ARE WAY TO MANY DOGS IN SHELTERS AND BEING EUTHANIZED EVERY SINGLE DAY, AND DECIDED THAT I WANTED NO PARTS OF THAT. However my sister is a breeder of show/confirmation quality Maltese since 2002


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

*1*No one is pressuring people to switch to raw here. Raw feeders are allowed to our opinions. No one is saying kibble is bad, is full of poison or deathballs or whatever Alapaha_Lover said in the other thread. 

I wouldn't take any advise from this person as this person sounds bit too nutty and extreme. in the Can you periodically feed raw food? thread this poster started all kinds of craziness and about how kibble has poison in it and dogs are dropping left and right? WTF? 

If dogs are dying right and left from kibble then more people on here would be talking about it. 

Canned sardines, beef, chicken liver, gizzards make nice kibble toppers. can cook the liver and gizzards up too. Coarse only give tiny bit of liver as only little goes long way especially when new to liver. can make the gizzards stretch by boiling them in water and the resulting broth makes a yummy topper on the kibble.. I done that few times and Bella likes it. I keep the contents in a plastic container and put some in microwavable cup and heat it let the water soak with the kibble and it makes yummy meal with bits of gizzards here and there.. 

I've made my own wet dog food once dogs loved it and it lasted good while. made enough for four weeks.. I cooked some ground beef I got on sale, little bit of liver, chicken hearts and gizzards, beef heart and ground up every thing then mixed in canned sardines, cooked oatmeal, hard boiled eggs. This was just a kibble topper not a full complete meal type of thing.. I also had some cooked and ground up veggies in it that I saved little from each time I prepped veggies for us and from my garden as I always have extra veggies.. 

Don't have to be rich to give little extra fresh stuff. I mean veggies and fruit cost good bit compared to processed foods. 

No one is talking about giving veggies or fruits because most either feed prey model style, have no need to talk about it, or whatever.

Giving a bit of pasta or potatoes isn't going to hurt, but don't go over board. 

Saya loves pears and sometimes munches on the fallen pears in the yard in fall. She sometimes like apples and raspberries. blue berries she loves a lot.

Veggies she is picky with and does not like them only will eat it if I mix it was ground meat or canned fish. she does like beets, kale, broccoli, brussels sprouts, but even those she will turn her nose on some weeks she'll want some and others she doesn't. I don't force her to eat them and just offer once in while. 

I give Bella either egg, canned fish, canned pumpkin or bits of fruit etc. throughout the week on kibble twice or three times week she gets raw treat or raw meal as dinner. canned sardines in water is nice treat it usually comes with three or four fish I give the two dogs one and half sardines and they go nuts over it. usually get it for 99cents or at most $1 sometimes seen sales for 60cents or so which I buy good bit when it's 60cents.

eggs are nutritious can split the egg at first between dogs then do one egg each once they're used to it. 

Some feel veggies are not needed some do. barf diet is the raw diet that includes veggies and fruits. 

I'm of type that don't push things. if someone feeds barf diet great, kibble great, prey model etc. long as it is good quality and done right. 

There is no one true correct dog diet some dogs do better with bit of veggies, some don't need it, some do fine with bit of grains once in while some have issue with it and some do fine with potatoes and some have bad reaction to potatoes. 

Not every dog will do good on same brand of kibble. Bella did bad on wellness puppy kibble while Saya did just fine. Both did good on wellness core ocean. I'm guessing it was the rice she had issues with as someone once gave her treat that had rice in it and she had reaction to that treat. 

Not all raw feeders feed 100% grass fed/free ranged meats. some get their meat from co ops, from local suppliers, farmers, and so on. I mean stuff like lung, pancreas, don't sell for high price. compared to roasts. I can get beef thymus for 1.49lb which is good price for sweetbreads as someone said their butcher sells it for 5$ lb! It's secreting organ which I give one week and next kidneys. 

Grocery meat isn't grass fed/free ranged. There might be some that is, but not all of it is. 

I do feed some grass fed/free ranged hearts/liver,kidney/thymus/ rocky mountain oysters and tongue rest is from grocery store. I did buy bunch of ground ewe grass fed, but it was on sale.

Long as it isn't enhanced meat then it is safe to give. enhanced meat has bit too much sodium content compared to normal meat.

Dogs do come from wolves btw what else would they come from? Cats? I don't know why you feel to post some type of untrue statement it has nothing to do with this discussion which has already gone way too off topic due to the troll. What proof you have that dogs do not come from wolves. 

I can understand someone being frustrated how people compare dogs to wolf on way to train a dog or feed it, but still dogs do come from wolves. 

There is plenty articles on dogs domestication.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

+1 to everything KuroSaya has said.

I give Meeko pizza crust, bits of pasta, etc. lol... but he is still fed PMR. I just don't give it to him as a staple of his diet. More like "junk food"


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