# Grain Free



## Must Love Belle (Feb 16, 2008)

Is anyone else noticing that most of the grain free diets are using "potato"? Ok, it's not a grain...but it is a very cheap Nightshade Vegetable! Yikes! Even basic research say's that's a bad idea. So I wonder... are we so busy following the latest fad in pet food that we're not noticing that in many ways it's another marketing ploy to sell food...not what's best for our dogs. After some research I found that dogs only use between 22-25% of the protein consumed...so please explain these VERY high protein foods? Too much protein can cause kidney problems by making the dogs system too acidic (it lowers their pH) over time if a dogs system is kept too acidic oxalate crystals will form and the only way to get rid of them is to take the protein out of the diet all together (which has it's own dangers) or surgery. Does anyone else have thoughts? I feel like pet foods went from too much carbohydrate to too much protein...


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

I've never heard of there really being to much protein and I may be wrong. Check out this link.
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

I'm feeding Solid Gold Barking at the Moon which is a grain free food.. and I have noticed my dogs energy levels going down. I really don't like the idea of grain based kibbles because in reality that is not a natural source for dogs. I'm being pulled both ways at this point and have had a hard time picking a food.

My vets think Science Diet is a good food so they can't even help with a decision.


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

I think there is more to it than jsut a blanket statement of "these new grain-free foods have too much protein". I think a lot more depends on the dog's age, breed, activity level etc. For example, with the Canadian Eskimo Dog, their digestive system is still so primitive (being a breed that is very rarely found outside of the arctic circle) that they do very poorly on a diet with too much vegetable/fruit matter or grain. Actually they do best on a diet that consists of mostly fresh raw meat with only a tiny bit of vegetable matter. After all, for hundreds of years they have strived in a climate where meat is the main source of food, so they have adapted to it. Very interesting!

My two are 5 and 6 years old, highly active working Sibes (another primitive breed although due to popularity, more modern than the Eskimo Dog) who live outside. Their diet is about 70% protein. They get fed a rotation of grain-free foods and then supplemented with raw meat as well. During the summer however, the protein level does drop since our activity decreases significantly (due to heat) and they also dont need as many calories to keep warm. This diet has worked great for us so far! They are very healthy, great coats, awesome muscle tone, high energy, quick recovery time, I couldnt be happier!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I _don't_ like the idea of potatoes in dog food.......potatoes can make arthritis worse and cause other issues. My dogs did do great on Taste of the Wild, though, so I guess it isn't too awful. And even the old lady, Willow, ate Natural Balance with potatoes in it (fish and potato? I think) and her arthritis didn't get any worse. I suppose it's better than corn or wheat. I don't think the protein levels can be TOO high, a raw deer or rabbit (a dog's natural prey) would be pretty high in protein, I think.


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## TripleD (Jan 10, 2008)

This is a really good site for finding info about ingredients.

http://members.aol.com/lifegard/petfood/index.htm?f=fs


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

I feed Innova EVO, have annual blood panels run on my two dogs (Standard Poodles), and both are healthy, and doing well on this food. I give them the red meat formula as well as the chicken/turkey formula. 

Here's what they say about the potatoes on their website:


Potatoes are whole, freshly cooked, Idaho russet potatoes, that include the skins.

Natura uses only whole, freshly steam cooked potatoes. They are not pre-processed, so they retain all of their important nutrients (including 'protector' antioxidants).

Potatoes provide B vitamins, carbohydrates, zinc, vitamin C, copper, iron, magnesium, niacin and potassium. Natura uses only fresh, whole fruits and vegetables, just like you would buy at the grocery store. 

In addition, my dogs get sweet potatoes, which I steam for them. No problems of any sort.


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## Must Love Belle (Feb 16, 2008)

I think we need to remeber that our dogs are not "wild dogs" they are domesticated and have been for hundreds of years. Just like every other animal they have evolved over time. To try and feed them like they're still eating animals in the wild is a mistake. Not to mention animals in the wild didn't live very long so we don't really know what the long term effects would be from their diet in the wild. That's like saying we as humans should start eating like cavemen did. Yes, there can be too much protein in a diet. If their bodies are only using 22-25% then why would you overload their diet with more? Any extreme is a bad idea. Also, no matter how you cook potatoes, they are a cheap source of carbohydrate that breaks down into simple sugars the only reason they are now being used in pet food is so the food can say "grain free"...it's marketing. Whole grains are not bad for dogs in moderate levels.


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## sn0fl8k3 (Oct 18, 2007)

Must Love Belle said:


> I think we need to remeber that our dogs are not "wild dogs" they are domesticated and have been for hundreds of years. Just like every other animal they have evolved over time. To try and feed them like they're still eating animals in the wild is a mistake. Not to mention animals in the wild didn't live very long so we don't really know what the long term effects would be from their diet in the wild. That's like saying we as humans should start eating like cavemen did. Yes, there can be too much protein in a diet. If their bodies are only using 22-25% then why would you overload their diet with more? Any extreme is a bad idea. Also, no matter how you cook potatoes, they are a cheap source of carbohydrate that breaks down into simple sugars the only reason they are now being used in pet food is so the food can say "grain free"...it's marketing. Whole grains are not bad for dogs in moderate levels.


So which brand do you feed your dogs? which are grain-free, lower protien, and no potatoes?


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## Must Love Belle (Feb 16, 2008)

I don't feed a grain free pet food. I think they are a great marketing idea but no better for our dogs. Some grain is not a bad thing as long as the grains are whole, human grade grains. I feed Back to Basics which is 94% digestible! 100% Human Grade, 23% protein, 19% fat, 37% carbohydrate, and has been rated by the Whole Dog Journal every year since they began rating pet foods including this year.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Instinct (Nature's Variety) is grain free with no potato--I switched my 20 month old standard poodle to their rabbit meal and turkey/duck meal formulas (alternate) about two months ago and I have to say he is really looking good--bulking up, not getting fat and as strong as bull lately--it is working very nicely for us


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## Must Love Belle (Feb 16, 2008)

Nature's Variety Instinct Duck and Turkey Ingredients:
Duck Meal, Turkey Meal, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil (naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Tomato Pomace, Pumpkinseeds, Herring Meal, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Meal

Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Yeast, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Iodine Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Carotene, Folic Acid), Peas, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite), Sea Salt, Dried Kelp, Cranberries, Blueberries, Inulin, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Freeze Dried Ground Turkey Bone. 

Nature's Variety Instinct Duck and Turkey Guaranteed Analysis: 
Protein 35%; Fat 22%; Moisture 10%; Omega 3 2.07%; Omega 6 3.86%; Fiber 3.5%; Calcium 2.26%

This food is interesting; the whole formula is basically 4 protein sources (the ingredients they throw in at the end are in such small amounts that it's really a joke to put them on the lable at all). I see the protein but where's the nutrition? Should I just throw my dog a slab of meat every night and be done with it? Seriously guys...doesn't this trend concern anyone else? 

Tapioca? That's new. Does anyone know why this ingredient is being used?


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

So i'm taking it you don't agree with raw feeding? 

I personally don't think grains are good one way or another. It's not a natural source of food for a dog and no matter how much some one says I wont agree that grains are better than potatos. While potatos are a lower grade "suplement" they're not blocking the dog up like most every grain.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Must Love Belle said:


> Nature's Variety Instinct Duck and Turkey Ingredients:
> Duck Meal, Turkey Meal, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil (naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Tomato Pomace, Pumpkinseeds, Herring Meal, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Meal
> 
> Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Yeast, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Iodine Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Carotene, Folic Acid), Peas, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite), Sea Salt, Dried Kelp, Cranberries, Blueberries, Inulin, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Freeze Dried Ground Turkey Bone.
> ...



This is from the NV website--they actually have a tab for you to check out any ingredient in their food--plus links to additional reading:

Tapioca
Tapioca, from the root of the cassava plant, is grain-free and gluten-free. There are no known alergies to tapioca, and many veterinary teaching hospitals incorporate tapioca into their hypoallergenic, homemade recipes for food allergies and Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD). Click here to read more about tapioca.

www.naturesvariety.com


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

"I feed Back to Basics which is 94% digestible! 100% Human Grade, 23% protein, 19% fat, 37% carbohydrate"

When you add carbs, proteins, and fats together you must come up with 100%. There is no other type of category of nutrients besides these three. So somewhere in the calculation the count is off since your carbs, proteins, and fats only add up to 79%.


Tapioca is a binder, to hold things together.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

According to the dog foodl project tapioca is also an alternative carbohydrate


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

> Tapioca? That's new. Does anyone know why this ingredient is being used?


Tapioca, manioc, yuca, cassava, whatever you want to call it would be the carb replacement for grains. It's a high carb "ground food". I don't see a problem with it.

I just saw Ginny's post above. We use it regularly here. As a matter of fact, I have some growing in my garden right now. 

Any "biblical "types would know it as Manna. So rather than new, it's very, very old.

We also make pudding here from it that is commonly known as plastic pudding. So BD's post is essentially correct too.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Tapioca is used in some grain free foods to stave off the gas that can result from eating such foods. Orijen has tapioca to reduce the gas.


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## ticman (Feb 3, 2008)

I have been using Orijen and am very pleased with the results. I have an 8 year old 10 lb poodle. Her coat is looking great. I do not have an aversion to using an no grain food.

I think the research out there and comments from many of the forum members leans toward the positive. But again we are all different and that's what makes the forum a great place to get different ideas.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Must Love Belle said:


> I think we need to remeber that our dogs are not "wild dogs" they are domesticated and have been for hundreds of years. Just like every other animal they have evolved over time. To try and feed them like they're still eating animals in the wild is a mistake.


Well, I wasn't really thinking of wild dogs. I know a LOT of farm dogs that eat rabbits, mice/rats and roadkilled deer all the time. So some dogs ARE "still eating animals in the wild". And, it's funny, but the farm dogs are usually healthier than town dogs, even if the farm dogs aren't cared for very well, and the town dogs are spoiled. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the farm dogs eating rabbits, mice, and old stinky dead deer  .

All in all, though, I'm not against feeding dogs some grains. My dogs do fine on Canidae and Chicken Soup, and I didn't see any difference when they were eating TOTW. Some dogs will do better on the grain-free foods, of course, and some dogs won't do well on them at all. Same as with any food.


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## Must Love Belle (Feb 16, 2008)

This is in response to (Briteday) calculating percentage of pet food. 23% protein, plus 19% fat, plus 37% carbohydrate, plus 10% moisture, plus 4% fiber, plus vitamin, minerals, digestive enzymes..etc. (approx. 7%) = 100%. 

I also agree with Willowy that farm dogs do seem to be alot healthier. Actually if you think about dogs 50 years ago they lived forever and never had health problems. It wasn't until humans got involved with "pet foods" that we began to see so many issues. So why? Well 50 years ago dogs were fed what we eat. Whatever was left over from dinner is what they got. My point though is that they didn't only eat mice or rabbits (although that added to the human grade diet they were eating probably helped). 

I don't disagree with the raw diet, or even feeding a little more protein. But I think we as humans tend to get very carried away and we have gone from feeding our pets mostly grains...which was bad, to mostly protein...which is bad. Just because too much grain (and low quality grains at that) were harmful doesn't mean all grains are harmful in moderate amounts. Just as protein is good, but when that's all they're getting??

I really want to see the studies that prove grains are bad for dogs (and I don't mean grain fillers...which are any carbohydrate source followed by the words..gluten meal, bran, flour or hull). Let's remember in the wild animals ate the stomach of their prey first (the grains, vegetables etc.) 

Even in human terms potatoes are not as recommended as rice, oatmeal, or even corn for their nutritional content. So why are we so convinced that potatoes are better for our dogs soley because they are not a "grain". 

To be clear; everyone can feed what they feel is best. I actually think it's pretty great that these are the debates we have compared to, as recently as 5 years back, when people still thought chicken by-product was ok. Even though I don't agree with grain free and these mostly protein diets do scare me; we are doing a lot better than we ever have with our pets. I just hope we don't undo all the progress by getting caught up in fads. That's all.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Sorry Belle. There is NOTHING other than carbs, proteins, and fats as food groups. (or maybe someone should tell the folks in the biochemistry dept about new discoveries)

So, because there is 10% moisture in the product the breakdown is as follows:

25.5% protein
21% fat
53.5% carbs (4.4 would be the fiber listed)

Following is the dogfoodanalysis.com comments on the chicken flavor, listed as a 3-star food: 

"Pros: First ingredient is a named meat product. 
Cons: Insufficient meat product, corn, fat as third ingredient (a bloat risk factor for large breed dogs). 

The first ingredient in the food is a named meat product in meal form. There is a further meat product (herring meal) as the 8th ingredient, but this is unlikely to make up a significant portion of the food (ingredients are listed in order of weight).

The second ingredient is corn. Corn is difficult for dogs to digest and thought to be the cause of a great many allergy and yeast infection problems.

It is a concern to see chicken fat as the third ingredient. Research at Purdue University has identified a fat in the top four ingredients of a dry dog food as a factor that increases the risk of bloat in large breed dogs. Smaller breeds are untested.

Oatmeal and brown rice are decent quality grains, and we appreciate the use of whole eggs in the food.

Note that this food uses citric acid as a preservative and thus should not be premoistened prior to feeding (a bloat risk factor in large breed dogs). "



I would like to see the review from Whole Dog Journal if anyone has it. 

I feel that grains can be an important part of the diet, not a grain-free advocate. However, I have a dog that is allergic to all grains so we feed grain-free. Potatoes don't seem to bother her. On the other hand, a food that lists corn as the second product by weight, ?????


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## LuvMyLab-ra-dork (Mar 11, 2008)

I find myself to be overwhelmed with the "grain free" topic as well. I just want to pull my hair out right now! I have been researching dog food for 3 days and every time I think I’ve make the right choice for my dog, I get slammed by someone who clearly thinks I have made a horrible decision. 

So let me ask this. I have a 6.5 year old lab who is starting to show signs of soreness in his back legs after excessive exercise. I've been told he needs to lose weight and I'm fine with that. That's seems to be the consensus! Whew....

But food vs. supplements vs. grain free vs. what's made here, what's made in China, and then what claims to be Natural isn't. I'm just so overwhelmed. Just when I feel like I have started to get a grasp and can make an educated guess on what to feed my dog, another person comes along and tells me my decision is horrible. 

Here's what conclusions I've come to: I either want to put my lab on **** Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium (not grain free) and add supplements to his diet or I want put him on First Mate (grain free) and from what I've been told- I won't have to supplement. 

Any feedback?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LuvMyLab-ra-dork said:


> Here's what conclusions I've come to: I either want to put my lab on **** Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium (not grain free) and add supplements to his diet or I want put him on First Mate (grain free) and from what I've been told- I won't have to supplement.
> Any feedback?


You shouldn't HAVE to supplement Natural Balance, either. It's a good food, and has all the vitamins and minerals he needs. My mom's allergic Lab usually eats Natural Balance, and she does well on it. An Omega-3 fish oil supplement would not be a bad idea, no matter what brand you choose to feed him---it's good for soreness and arthritis. I have read that a grain-free diet can be good for dogs with arthritis and other inflammatory diseases, because carbs can increase inflammation in dogs. I'm not certain if this is true, I need to do more research. Basically, to find the right food for YOUR dog, you need to experiment a little. You should be able to see if he's doing well or not within a month or so after starting a new food. If he's not doing as well as you like, try another brand.


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## cascabel (Sep 25, 2007)

Willowy said:


> I have read that a grain-free diet can be good for dogs with arthritis and other inflammatory diseases, because carbs can increase inflammation in dogs.



It's not the carbs, but the grains that promote inflammation. (there is a difference....potato, tapioca etc... are carbs, but not grains) It's due to the omega 6 content of grains. The omega 6-s are inflammatory fatty acids.


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## LuvMyLab-ra-dork (Mar 11, 2008)

I know I have more research to do, but I still believe that there are good grains and/ or good carbs out there. I am going to look into what people have to say about the Omega-6. To the best of your knowledge, do all grains contain Omega-6? I'm not opposed to changing my opinion, but so far I have not found enough articles to make me want to change my opinion.


I’ve really spent a lot of time looking into Natural
Balance and they've ranked very high according to
several sources. I know in this day and age, we should
consider ourselves lucky to have the huge selection of
premium pet foods that we do. We benefit from it in
several ways: They’ve become affordable, we have a
huge selection so we can chose what is right for our
animal, and because consumers are spending more on
their pets now than ever before….they are really
putting in the research and improving these foods all
the time!

I just don't understand how some people can be not
only so critical....but so rude as well when it comes
to this topic! I guess my point is that I see people
arguing over these foods that have all been ranked as
some of the top 20-30 dog foods. They are all good
foods, it just depends how your dog takes to it. I’ve
read many articles on this topic and they all come to
the same conclusion, there is no “just one best food”
anymore. 

Now I'm not 100% certain about the grain free diet. I
think that there are good grains. Animals and Humans
biological make ups are very similar. We need
carbs...good carbs are good for us, that's what gives
us our energy. But I can see with all of the food fads
humans go through…. how this theory of low carb-grain
free has spread to our animals. I find this to be
another money making trend that people are falling
for. Similar to the Atkins diet and the South Beach
Diet. I think the grains that people are referring to
in regards to arthritis and inflammation are the bad
grains that cheap/ low rated dog foods are packed
with.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

I take the cop out stance on this issue, which is...how does your dog do on whatever you feed him/her? I think I ended up with grain free formulas because a lot of the premium brands are grain free. It's not the lack of grains I like, it's the high quality of the ingredients they do use. Max has dry skin so I feed him a fish-based food and I am happy that they say "salmon, whitefish, menhaden" etc., instead of "fish meal". Whether or not it has been scientifically proven to be better...I feel more comfortable feeding him something that I FEEL is a healthy choice. And honestly, his coat, energy, stools all those little indicators...they're looking good. So grain free seems to work for him. But then, I don't have too much to compare it to.


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