# Choker Chains Are Not Cruel



## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

Read this blog.
http://thethreedogblog.com/choker-chains-are-not-cruel.html


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

Ok, had a quick look......and? Is it your blog?


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## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

No, I just haven't seen many people recommend this for others looking for training advice. It is some good information on how to use them.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, a site that has a HUGE heading called "Choker Chains Dogs Training Choke Chains For Sale" and a link to "Buy Cheap Choker Chains From Amazon HERE" is pro-choke collar. I'm shocked.


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Wow, a site that has a HUGE heading called "Choker Chains Dogs Training Choke Chains For Sale" and a link to "Buy Cheap Choker Chains From Amazon HERE" is pro-choke collar. I'm shocked.


hehe love your style :tea:


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Hm yes. One blog post that does not mention the stress it causes, high risk of negative associations leading to increased aggressive reactions, or even that use of aversive methods is known to provoke an aggressive response from a dog.

Why on earth would you use pain to teach your best friend when it's simply not necessary? Oh, sorry, should I say "discomfort" instead of pain?

:nono:


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

It's true! Choke chains are safe if used correctly. Here's proof.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

There are VERY few circumstances in which I would be comfortable using anything that caused "discomfort" to my dog. In fact, the only one I can think of is snake aversion and that doesn't even apply to my life.

Why on earth would I need to *correct* my dog for something it doesn't know is a rule. It would be like me allowing my human child to jump on his bed, then one day, seeing him at it, pulling him off, and slapping him. I don't think that he'd jump on the bed in front of me anymore. But he'd also be left feeling betrayed and confused. Why should do that to a dog when I could just teach them to heel?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

The reason they're not recommended often (even by the people on here who use them themselves) is that if used incorrectly, they can be detrimental to the dog. This is the internet, I don't know if the person asking for training advice is a sensible individual who would carefully consider correctly implementing a choker with professional consultation because nothing else they've tried is working, or if they're some power crazy person who wants to be macho wanting an easy way to control their dog who they've put no training effort into.


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## mjfromga (May 24, 2011)

They might not be cruel per se (I find them a bit cruel personally), but they sure are ineffective! I used one on a Lab/pit bull mix when I was young (parents gave it to me for control), and not only did it not slow him down... it made him angry and he pulled even harder. Eventually, he'd pull and pull and his tongue and gums would turn blue and he'd be hacking and heaving, but he'd STILL pull. 

When he finally got too fatigued to pull anymore, he'd stop and hack and heave for a bit.... before going right back to pulling! I eventually realized it was useless and got him a harness and stopped using it. He kept it on as a necklace.. and one day while out playing, it fell off... never to be seen again.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> *Treats.* I have never used treats as a form of leash training mainly because I know I would forget to bring them with me half the time! Keeping it simple and with only what you need i.e a Dog and a lead always seems the best way to me. If you feel that holding a treat out to encourage or reward your Dog may work then by all means try it. The only problem is you must be consistent and remember them whenever it is “walkies” time.


Yes, choke collars are a viable alternative for the absent-minded individual. Seriously though, just how difficult is it to remember ... (dog + flat collar & leash + poop bag + treats) = walk training time ?




> *Never forget the short leash.* If you are keeping the leash really short with your Dogs head up high then you will hardly need to pull your Dog back with any force. Just keep saying “heel” as you gently pull back slightly so the Dog is right by your side. Repeat endlessly!


Just keep pulling back, and repeat "_endlessly_" ? .... good choice of words.


http://thethreedogblog.com/top-tips-for-leash-training-a-dog.html


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh gosh, is that really what it says?

Yea hmm.. I know I'll forget the leash when I take my dog for a walk, so I'll just throw a shock collar on it so it can't run away! That way I don't have to worry about forgetting!

Good grief.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh yes, jerking on your dog's throat, dragging and choking it because it doesn't understand what you want from it is brilliant.
Not to mention they don't teach the dog squat


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Back in the early 1970's I went to obedience classes with a couple of my dogs and was taught with a choker. But today ... there are so many other tools in the box I don't feel it necessary. I do however know how to properly use a choker if I choose to do so.

I know you may notice a choker on Abbylynn in some of my photos. That is mainly for looks. It is also fixed so that it cannot choke. I have a thing for how they look.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I have to ask...can they be used correctly? I mean, are their circumstances and dogs that would benefit from one being used in the proper manner? I know any piece of equipment can be detrimental if put into the wrong hands, but....


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

SDRRanger said:


> I have to ask...can they be used correctly? I mean, are their circumstances and dogs that would benefit from one being used in the proper manner? I know any piece of equipment can be detrimental if put into the wrong hands, but....


I would like to further on this although I am not a pro trainer. But when I used a choker you didn't choke the dog with it. It was a slight pop or "tug" up on the choker for a "sit" command. I used a double "Pop" (if you will) for a "Down" .......

I do not know why they even make them for small dogs. :/ I mean .... they certainly cannot handle a "Pop" with their tiny little trachea's. 

Maybe a large out of control dog may benefit ... if only for the handler's benefit .... knowing how to position the choke chain ... as to not ending up with road rash! Many may disagree.That is abuse with the tool IMHO. But I had a couple of those types of dogs ... super hard dogs! And quite honestly it really didn't make any difference. Once the choke was off and a regular collar was on ... everything went out the window anyway.

So I guess my answer would be .... I am not sure.  I am sure a real trainer knows way more than I.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Really???

Dunno... 
One of the collars I bought Roman when I first got him was a prong collar.
(Misguided me, it was bought for a "JIC" for when he pulls or if he were to ever grow up with a questionable attitude as wiki even mentioned about how hard it is to train a GP).

When I first tried to put it on him (walking with pull issue), he bolted (like a pony as he was but a pup).
He looked so miserable...

So, trying to "talk" (communicate with him), I understood he doesn't like the prong (it probably made him very uncomfortable; as GP are known to be sensitive "even fur-wise").

So... I showed Roman his daily collar and the leash (for walk).
I took away his prong collar & showed him the prong & leash again.

You know... that little bugger choses his daily collar via his snout indicating the direction where the hand holding his daily collar is???

I put his reguler daily collar back on him and he walked like a champ ever since.

No more prong collar needed.

"Is it cruel???"
You tell me... how a dog will choose (without human involvement).








^^^Naked without any collar on... 
The way Roman likes it at home,
@ 11 months old, 120lb of walking & training weight








^^^A leash free Roman that follows his family pack everywhere.

You trust your dog, your dog will trust you back.
Just keep showing him that trust & he will never leave your side.
= Any successful relationship (especially ones involving with the word "love").


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Roman is a smart boy!  I have never used a prong collar. I don't even know if they made them way back then.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

troglodytezzz said:


> It's true! Choke chains are safe if used correctly. Here's proof.


That video was pretty funny!


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I personally know a few trainers who still train "traditionally" or "balanced" with choke and prong collars. When used correctly they certainly don't traumatise the dog, as the dog should be learning how he/she can avoid the pop, and if they feel in control they're not scared of it.

I really don't understand why people still train that way though. Anything you can do with a choke collar, you can do just as easily, quickly and with as reliable results using nothing but reward based training.

Even though the collar was used correctly by the people I know, and the dogs are happy and well-adjusted (more so than most other dogs I see), they do show a lack of interest in interacting with and training with their owner/handler. Which is a side-effect of using discomfort in training. Your dog will be obey you, but he won't really want to, and he'd rather be looking at his surroundings than look at the handler, and you don't get the nice enthusiasm and wagging tail that you get with reward based training. And like I said, there's no reason to train that way anymore with the current level of knowledge about how dogs learn, so why would you.

(Of course you CAN get enthusiasm and speed and a wagging tail even though you use a check chain, but you'd then have to train *mostly* reward based with maybe 2% corrections and the rest R+ and P- and only use corrections for the final proofing, in which case you might as well get rid of the corrections anyway).


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

draws back on any collar from choke chain, pinch collar, flat buckle collar is slapping it on a dog with no training and people using them as mindless steering control.. the dog only learns to pull and struggle against them.. Huge difference in dogs who have focus attention work, off lead follow me skills in the house and yard. collars and leads are good for safety, they are not stand alone problem solvers, pre training is necessary..


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I find choke chains to be very useful for 2 things:

a one-size-fits-all emergency collar: I keep one in my trunk for loose or lost dogs, can be slipped on easily but not slipped out of easily. Will also sometimes toss one in my pocket or backpack for group trips as a replacement collar if needed should a dog manage to lose or break theirs.

a back-up for equipment failures. Clipping the ring to the leash that is also clipped to a flat collar or to a harness means the choke never engages unless the flat collar buckle pops open or the dog backs out of the harness. For the newbies without recall, I greatly prefer that extra layer of safety.

Other than that, I haven't really found any compelling reason to use a choke collar.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'll just say that we used choke chains our our schnauzers when I was growing up, because that's what people recommended. We didn't really use them to train or anything, just for taking them on walks. The main reason we stuck with them was because our female could slip out of her collar and we had never heard of martingales then.

Did the choke chain magically make them walk correctly on leash? No way. They pulled like anything until they were choking themselves. Whether they are cruel or not, slapping one on an untrained dog isn't going to make it walk with a loose lead - you still have to train it.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think even most people who use aversives or corrections in training have moved on to martingales and prong collars. The closest things I see to choke collars widely in use are slip leads in shows, but I don't see anyone yanking on them.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Did the choke chain magically make them walk correctly on leash? No way. They pulled like anything until they were choking themselves. Whether they are cruel or not, slapping one on an untrained dog isn't going to make it walk with a loose lead - you still have to train it.


This is pretty much it.
For some ungodly reason, people seem to think that putting a choker on a dog will teach them not to pull. They think that the dog will learn that when it pulls it chokes so it will stop and that is simply not the case. Then when the dog doesn't learn people laugh and call the dog stupid.
That's my problem with them. Watching people drag their dogs around or letting their dogs gag and cough and damage themselves and thinking the dog is stupid for it.

Diesel has one. He always will. I may have to use it tomorrow because it's something he can't slip out of. But by no means do I think it will work as a training too.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Shell said:


> a back-up for equipment failures. Clipping the ring to the leash that is also clipped to a flat collar or to a harness means the choke never engages unless the flat collar buckle pops open or the dog backs out of the harness. For the newbies without recall, I greatly prefer that extra layer of safety.


This is the only way I use them! I got little blue slip collars for my dogs, and both wear them as a backup. They're very light, cheap collars and are just there for the added security. You can see Casper's in this photo (he was watching fish swim around in the pond and wanted to go in after them).


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

They're just so unnecessary. And the whole "I'll forget treats" thing? No! Bad human! You don't get to cause your dog pain and fear because you can't be bothered to stuff some treats in your pocket.

Two days ago, I realized my vacation is in less than 5 weeks. Kabota has a sloppy heel I mostly just use for people passing us on the sidewalk. I want a much better heel for the boardwalk. So I grabbed a clicker and some treats, showed them to Kabota and started walking around the house. He followed me and eventually put himself in a nice heel. click/treat. At the end of 5 minutes, he was testing to see exactly what I wanted. He surged forward, he held back, tried the left, tried facing me. No treat, no click. Then he very purposefully put himself in heel. Big jackpot of treats. The next morning, he was putting himself in the right position on the first try. This morning, I added the cue, since he was getting it so quickly. In 5 weeks, we'll have a pretty heel to show off on the boardwalk.

Clicker training is that powerful. More than that, it's fun for everyone involved.

Oh, and to put choke collars in perspective, prong collars were invented to be the kind alternative to choke collars. Wrap your head around that one.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Choke chains should not be recommended without hands-on instruction. This isn't viable on the internets.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

I used to teach obedience classes, and the truth of the matter is that only about 10% of pet owners were ever able to develop the proper timing to effectively use a choke collar. It was an exercise in futility. These days I would teach with either a flat collar or a prong, depending on the dog and the people.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

all I'm going to add to this is that its extremely annoying when people (not on this forum, just in general) assume that I'm some sort of dog beating serial killer because my dog is using a choke chain when training in public with his guide dog vest on.

I use it as backup for a regular flat collar, because we are not allowed to use harnesses ever as that would interfere with the eventual harness training for the working dog.

That is all


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I've used choke chains on my dogs and Ranger has one now. I use it in conjunction with my flat collar with the lead clipped to both. If we're going to a heavy traffic area, or somewhere new and possibly scary I want that backup should the collar give.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I had a dog I used a prong on. She was a rescue and I was working on leash manners, but in the meantime, she was strong enough to pull me off my feet and we hadn't discovered haltis or no-pull harnesses yet.

You would have thought, from the responses we got that either:
A. I was the most evil person on the planet for using a prong on her.
B. She was the devil incarnate and was scheming on a level with Hannibal Lector. (She might have licked them to death after dragging me behind her.)

It actually got worse when I started using a halti (like a gentle leader) because then people in the neighborhood thought I'd upgraded to a muzzle on my ferocious beast!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I think even most people who use aversives or corrections in training have moved on to martingales and prong collars. The closest things I see to choke collars widely in use are slip leads in shows, but I don't see anyone yanking on them.


Above is what I have used for years, I would advise if you have not tried a Marti as a backup collar please do, adjusted properly it's pretty much escape proof and much easier on neck. When I was a kid (19 years old) I got my 1st and only obedience title (CD) and choke collar was weapon of choice. I was very young and stupid. 

But at that time there were no Computers/Power Steering or Marti collars, it was indeed the dark ages.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> This is pretty much it.
> For some ungodly reason, people seem to think that putting a choker on a dog will teach them not to pull. They think that the dog will learn that when it pulls it chokes so it will stop and that is simply not the case. Then when the dog doesn't learn people laugh and call the dog stupid.
> That's my problem with them. Watching people drag their dogs around or letting their dogs gag and cough and damage themselves and thinking the dog is stupid for it.
> 
> Diesel has one. He always will. I may have to use it tomorrow because it's something he can't slip out of. But by no means do I think it will work as a training too.


It does work as a training tool, but not when used for choking (which btw is banned for training purposes in some European countries). I always call it a check chain, because the only way I know how to use it is when you pop the collar. Which works fine for teaching loose leash walking, any time the dog gets inattentive and dives forward, you pop the collar before the leash has a chance to go tight. In obedience training you would give the dog a pop if you said "sit" and he didn't do it. You'd then pop and say "sit!" at the same time.

I know it works for loose leash walking (doesn't mean I would ever use it or see a good reason to use it that way), but I question how effective it is for obedience training the way I just described. I've seen some dogs who have been trained that way that are still not reliably sitting every time they're told. So I have no reason to think that using corrections makes a dog more reliable than reward based training (even though balanced trainers try to convince me of this).

I actually don't think how reliable a dog is has anything to do with the method used, but rather the skill of the trainer and the application of the method (whether it's reward based, in drive, balanced or whatever).

I think if you're going to use a correction collar, a prong collar is a much better choice that a check chain, because you have to apply much less force to get the dog to respond. There's an interesting video on the correct use of prong collars on Youtube, it's called "conversational leash work", and the guy is literally only holding the leash with the tip of his fingers and applying very little pressure, and it's R- rather than P+. You could never do that with a check chain.

But that being said, corrections really should only ever be used by professionals, and even then I can't even imagine when you'd need to use them. They seem like the lazy way out to me, and I've yet to see anything trained with corrections that couldn't be trained just as easily using rewards. Except maybe leash walking, I do think a prong collar would make leash walking a LOT easier, but you do have to know how to use the collar, and no one should slap a check chain or prong collar on their dog unless they know what they're doing.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Here's a real pearl. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBeztw0ZUGg

WARNING: not for the faint of heart.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

How can he possibly be showing that crippled, cow hocked dog? That is certainly old style training especially when he says if the dog does not sit, you choke him till he does it because you have to be "boss" with a German Shepherd. His older dog sure does not look very happy.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I watched his "trained" old dog engage in enough avoidance behaviors to convince me I didn't want to see what followed. If I stand around holding a leash, I have 3 dogs who would chose to mob me trying to get to go first. Training should be fun. For all parties. 

No need to ruin a Saturday.

Oh, and I'm pretty good at choke collars/slip chains (whatever.) My male wears one in the ring when we show. I don't train in them. There are just too many better ways.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Choke chain being used on my dog in the ring. He is not being "choked" by it but it does offer control, high up behind the ears.

When I take my dogs for walks off the property, they are generally in a buckle collar. On private property, they are naked.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Here's a real pearl.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBeztw0ZUGg
> 
> WARNING: not for the faint of heart.


Everytime he calls the first dog over it instantly turns and goes away after coming.
Not to mention he says he doesn't have to correct his trained dog but I saw a couple corrections already.
And don't get me started on the second dog. I now understand what he means by corrections. I've never had to correct a dog that hard, that it yelps. That's completely wrong.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

To be clear, it's not as though I went searching for that video, I found it in a sidebar while viewing the conversational leash work vid. I'm sure that this type of choke collar promotion is abundant if you care to look. Really, I don't care to. But I posted it because I thought it was a good visual example of some of the fallout that can happen even when some 'experts' utilize them. The stress levels, body language, avoidance behavior, calming signals etc of both dogs are readily apparent. One moment in particular that caught my eye was the first dog's reaction to a simple, inadvertent hand gesture @ 3:47, although there were countless similar examples seen in the course of the video. 

Personally, I find that kind of stuff revolting, yet quite convincing. And hopefully, it's there for all to see and thus make informed decisions regarding what methods / tools they use to train.


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