# Sticky  ALL ABOUT VACCINE ISSUES & VACCINATIONS--Dodds & Schultz 2/10



## Kris L. Christine

Permission granted by Dr. W. Jean Dodds to post and repost this article.

*ALL ABOUT VACCINE ISSUES & VACCINATIONS*
W. Jean Dodds, DVM 1 and Ronald D. Schultz, PhD 2 *

There is little doubt that application of modern vaccine technology has permitted us to protect companion animals effectively against serious infectious diseases. Today, we can question conventional vaccine regimens and adopt effective and safe alternatives primarily because the risk of disease has been significantly reduced by the widespread use of vaccination programs, which convey underlying population or herd immunity.

For many veterinary practitioners canine vaccination programs have been “practice management tools” rather than medical procedures. Thus, it is not surprising that attempts to change the vaccines and vaccination programs based on scientific information have created significant controversy. A “more is better” philosophy still prevails with regard to pet vaccines. 

Annual vaccination has been and remains the single most important reason why most pet owners bring their pets for an annual or more often “wellness visit.” Another reason for the reluctance to change current vaccination programs is many practitioners really don’t understand the principles of vaccinal immunity. Clearly, the accumulated evidence indicates that vaccination protocols should no longer be considered as a “one size fits all” program. 

Giving annual boosters when they are not necessary has the client paying for a service which is likely to be of little benefit to the pet’s existing level of protection against these infectious diseases. It also increases the risk of adverse reactions from the repeated exposure to foreign substances.

So, have veterinarians really embraced the national policies on vaccination guidelines from the American Animal Hospital Association, American Veterinary Medical Association and Academy of Feline Practitioners? Does the public trust veterinarians to be up-to-date on these issues or are they unsure? Do they believe veterinarians have a conflict of interest if they seek the income from annual booster vaccinations? Given current media attention to vaccination issues, the public is more aware and worried about vaccine safety.

Some veterinarians today still tell their clients there is no scientific evidence linking vaccinations with adverse effects and serious illness. This is ignorance, and confuses an impressionable client. On the other hand, vaccine zealots abound with hysteria and misinformation. None of these polarized views is helpful.

Further, veterinarians are still routinely vaccinating ill dogs and those with chronic diseases or prior adverse vaccine reactions. This is especially problematic for rabies boosters, as many colleagues believe they have no legal alternative, even though the product label states it's intended for healthy animals. For more information, see www.RabiesChallengeFund.org


*Alternatives to Current Vaccine Practices *

1) measuring serum antibody titers; 
2) avoidance of unnecessary vaccines or over vaccinating; 
3) caution in vaccinating sick or febrile individuals; and 
4) tailoring a specific minimal vaccination protocol for dogs of breeds or families known to be at increased risk for adverse reactions. 
5) considerations include starting the vaccination series later, such as at nine or ten weeks of age when the immune system is better able to handle antigenic challenge; 
6) alerting the caregiver to pay particular attention to the puppy’s behavior and overall health after the second or subsequent boosters; and 
7) avoiding revaccination of individuals already experiencing a significant adverse event. Littermates of affected puppies should be closely monitored after receiving additional vaccines in a puppy series, as they too are at higher risk. 

*Some Frequently Asked Questions – Some questions are part of the Guidelines for Vaccination of Dogs and Cats compiled by the Vaccine Guidelines Group (VGG) of the World Small Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA) 

Q. Do dogs competing in agility or other events need more vaccines for protection than other pet dogs?
A. *No, although if the event location has an exposure risk for Leptospirosis or Lyme disease , annual vaccination for these diseases should be considered. 

*Q. Is there risk of overvaccinating with vaccines not needed for a specific animal?
A. * Yes. Vaccines contain material designed to challenge the immune system of the pet, and so can cause adverse reactions. They should not be given needlessly, and should be tailered to the pet’s individual needs. 

*Q. Are the initial series of puppy core vaccines immunosuppressive?
A.* Yes. This period of immunosuppression from MLV canine distemper and hepatitis vaccines coincides with the time of vaccine-induced viremia, from days 3 to 10 after vaccination.

*Q. Can anesthetized patients be vaccinated?
A. * This is not preferred, because a hypersensitivity reaction with vomiting and aspiration could occur and anesthetic agents can be immunomodulating.

*Q. Is it safe to vaccinate pregnant pets? 
A. *Absolutely not. 

*Q. Should pets with immunosuppressive diseases such as cancer or autoimmune diseases, or adverse vaccine reactions/ hypersensitibvity receive booster vaccinations? 
A. *No. Vaccination with MLV products should be avoided as the vaccine virus may cause disease; vaccination with killed products may aggravate the immune-mediated disease or be ineffective. For rabies boosters that are due, local authorities may accept titers instead or accept a letter from your veterinarian. 

*Q. If an animal receives immunosuppressive therapy, how long afterwards can the pet safely be vaccinated?
A. *Wait at least 2 weeks.

*Q. Should vaccines be given more often than 2 weeks apart even if a different vaccine is being given? 
A. *No. The safest and most effective interval is 3-4 weeks apart. 

*Q. At what age should the last vaccine dose be given in the puppy series?
A. *The last dose of vaccine should be given between 14-16 weeks regardless of the number of doses given prior to this age. Rabies vaccine should preferably be given separately as late as possible under the law (e.g. 16-24 weeks).

*Q. Should the new canine influenza vaccine be given routinely? 
A. *No. It is intended primarily for pounds and shelters and high density boarding facilities, as nose-to-nose contact and crowding promote viral transmission. 

*Q. Can intranasal Bordetella vaccine be given parenterally (injected)?
A. *No. The vaccine can cause a severe local reaction and may even kill the pet. 

*Q. Will a killed parenteral Bordetella vaccine given intranasally produce immunity?
A. *No. 

*Q. Are homeopathic nosodes capable of immunizing pets?
A. *No. There is no scientific documentation that nosodes protect against infectious diseases of pets. The one parvovirus nosode trial conducted years ago did not protect against challenge. 

*Q. Should disinfectant be used at the vaccine injection site?
A. *No. Disinfectants could inactivate a MLV product.

*Q. Can vaccines cause autoimmune diseases?
A. *Vaccines themselves do not cause these diseases, but they can trigger autoimmune responses followed by disease in genetically predisposed animals, as can any infection, drug, or chemical / toxic exposures etc.

*Q. Can a single vaccine dose provide any benefit to the dog? Will it benefit the canine population?
A. *Yes. One dose of a MLV canine core vaccine should provide long term immunity when given to animals at or after 16 weeks of age. Every puppy 16 weeks of age or older should receive at least one dose of the MLV core vaccines. We need to vaccinate more animals in the population with core vaccines to achieve herd immunity and thereby prevent epidemic outbreaks.
*
Q. If an animal receives only the first dose of a vaccine that needs two doses to immunize, will it have immunity? 
A.* No. A single dose of a two-dose vaccine like Leptospirosis vaccine will not provide immunity. The first dose is for priming the immune system. The second for boosting the immunity has to be given within 6 weeks; otherwise the series has to start over again. After those two doses, revaccination with a single dose can be done at any time.
* 
Q. Can maternally derived antibodies (MDA) also block immunity to killed vaccines and prevent active immunization with MLV vaccines?
A.*Yes. MDA can block certain killed vaccines, especially those that require two doses to immunize. With MLV vaccines, two doses are often recommended, particularly in young animals, to be sure one is given beyond the neutralizing period of MDA.


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## Kris L. Christine

* 
Q. How long after vaccination does an animal develop immunity that will prevent severe disease when the core vaccines are used?
A. *This is dependent on the animal, the vaccine, and the disease.

· The fastest immunity is provided by canine distemper virus (CDV) vaccines -- MLV and recombinant canarypox virus vectored. The immune response starts within mins - hrs and provides protection within a day without interference from MDA.
· Immunity to canine parvovirus (CPV-2) develops after 3-5 days when an effective MLV vaccine is used. 
· Canine adenovirus-2/hepatitis (CAV-2) MLV given parenterally provides immunity against CAV-1 in 5 to 7 days. 

*Q. Can dogs be “non-responders” and fail to develop an immune response to vaccines?
A *Yes. This is a genetic characteristic seen particularly in some breeds or dog families. Boosting them regularly will not produce measurable antibody. Some of these animals may be protected against disease by their cell-mediated and secretory immunity. 

*Q. Are there parvovirus and distemper virus field mutants that are not adequately protected by current MLV vaccines?
A. *No. All the current CPV-2 and CDV vaccines provide protection from all known viral isolates, when tested experimentally as well as in the field. The current CPV-2 and CPV-2b vaccines provide both short and long term protection from challenge by the CPV-2c variant.

*Q. Are serum antibody titres useful in determining vaccine immunity?
A. *Yes. They are especially useful for CDV, CPV-2 and CAV-1 in the dog, FPV in the cat, and rabies virus in the cat and dog. Rabies titers, however, are often not acceptable to exempt individual animals from mandated rabies boosters in spite of medical justifcation. Serum antibody titers are of limited or no value for (many of) the other vaccines.

1 President, Hemopet, 938 Stanford Street, Santa Monica, CA 90403; 2 Chairman, Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, WI 53706.

* Excerpted from: AKC Health Foundation, St. Louis, MO, 2007; J Sm An Pract 48, 528–541, 2007; 5th IVVDC Conference , Madison, WI , 2009.

Additional Literature

● Day MJ, Horzinek MC, Schultz RD. Guidelines for the vaccination of dogs and cats. J Sm An Pract, 48, 528-541 2007

● Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 38: 1-4, 2001.

● Dodds WJ. Vaccine issues revisited: what’s really happening ? Proc Am Hol Vet Med Assoc, Tulsa, OK, 2007, pp 132-140.

● Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force : 2006 AAHA Canine Vaccine Guidelines. J Am An Hosp Assoc 42:80-109, Mar-April 2006, 28 pp. www.aahanet.org 

● Schultz R D Considerations in designing effective and safe vaccination programs for dogs. In: Carmichael LE (editor), Recent Advances in Canine Infectious Diseases. Intern Vet Inform Serv, 2000. www.ivis.org.

● Schultz RD. Duration of immunity for canine and feline vaccines: a review. Vet Microbiol 117:75-79, 2006. 

“CORE” CANINE VACCINES * 

· Distemper 
· Adenovirus (Hepatitis)** 
· Parvovirus 
· Rabies 
_______________________________________
* vaccines that every dog and cat should have
** immunity provided by a CAV-2 vaccine 

CANINE VACCINE ADVERSE EVENTS *

· retrospective cohort study; 1.25 million dogs vaccinated at 360 veterinary hospitals
· 38 adverse events per 10,000 dogs vaccinated
· inversely related to dog weight
· vaccines prescribed on a 1-dose-fits-all basis, rather than by body weight. 
· increased for dogs up to 2 yr of age, then declined
· greater for neutered versus sexually intact dogs 
· increased as number of vaccines given together increased
· increased after the 3 rd or 4th vaccination
· genetic predisposition to adverse events documented
_____________________________________________________________
* from Moore et al, JAVMA 227:1102–1108, 2005


VACCINE CONCLUSIONS FOR CANINES *

Factors that increase risk of adverse events 3 days after vaccination:


·  young adult age 
· small-breed size
· neutering
· multiple vaccines given per visit 

These risks should be communicated to clients
_______________________________________________________

* from Moore et al, JAVMA 227:1102–1108, 2005


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## RBark

Thanks for the post!


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## RedyreRottweilers

Please, could this FABULOUS wealth of information be made into a sticky?


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## Kris L. Christine

RBark said:


> Thanks for the post!


You're welcome! I have many more informative posts that will be going up in the days ahead.

Kris


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## RedyreRottweilers

Kris, I see you post on many boards I am on. Do you have a blog?


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## Kris L. Christine

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Do you have a blog?


The Rabies Challenge Fund has a website www.RabiesChallengeFund.org and a Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-R...ies-Challenge-Fund/119106981159?v=wall&ref=ts .


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## Kris L. Christine

*Dr. W. Jean Dodds' Latest Vaccination Schedule*

Here is Dr. W. Jean Dodds' Latest Recommendation Vaccination Schedule for those of you who are interested.

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

*Dr. Jean Dodds' Recommended Vaccination Schedule *

*Distemper (MLV)* 
_Initial_ (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks 
_1st Annual Booster_ At 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only 
_Re-Administration Interval_ *None needed.*
*Duration of immunity 7.5 / 15 years by studies. Probably lifetime.* Longer studies pending. 
_Comments _Can have numerous side effects if given too young (< 8 weeks). 

*Parvovirus (MLV)*
_Initial_ (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks 
_1st Annual Booster_At 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only 
_Re-Administration Interval_ *None needed.*
*Duration of immunity 7.5 years by studies. Probably lifetime*. Longer studies pending. 
_Comments _At 6 weeks of age, only 30% of puppies are protected but 100% are exposed to the virus at the vet clinic. 

*Rabies (killed) *
_Initial_ 24 weeks or older 
_1st Annual Booster_At 1 year (give 3-4 weeks apart from Dist/Parvo booster) Killed 3 year rabies vaccine
_Re-Administration Interval_ 3 yr. vaccine given as required by law in California (follow your state/provincial requirements) 
_Comments _rabid animals may infect dogs. 

*Vaccines Not Recommended For Dogs *

*Distemper & Parvo @ 6 weeks or younger*
Not recommended.
At this age, maternal antibodies form the mothers milk (colostrum) will neutralize the vaccine and only 30% for puppies will be protected. 100% will be exposed to the virus at the vet clinic. 

*Corona *
Not recommended.
1.) Disease only affects dogs <6 weeks of age.
2.) Rare disease: TAMU has seen only one case in seven years.
3.) Mild self-limiting disease.
4.) Efficacy of the vaccine is questionable. 

*Leptospirosis*
Not recommended
1) There are an average of 12 cases reported annually in California.
2) Side effects common.
3) Most commonly used vaccine contains the wrong serovars. (There is no cross-protection of serovars) There is a new vaccine with 2 new serovars. Two vaccinations twice per year would be required for protection.).
4) Risk outweighs benefits.

*Lyme* 
Not recommended
1) Low risk in California.
2) 85% of cases are in 9 New England states and Wisconsin.
3) Possible side effect of polyarthritis from whole cell bacterin. 

*Boretella*
(Intranasal)
(killed) Only recommended 3 days prior to boarding when required.
Protects against 2 of the possible 8 causes of kennel cough.
Duration of immunity 6 months. 

*Giardia* 
Not recommended
Efficacy of vaccine unsubstantiated by independent studies 

There are two types of vaccines currently available to veterinarians: modified-live vaccines and inactivated ("killed") vaccines.

*Immunization Schedules*

There is a great deal of controversy and confusion surrounding the appropriate immunization schedule, especially with the availability of modified-live vaccines and breeders who have experienced postvaccinal problems when using some of these vaccines. It is also important to not begin a vaccination program while maternal antibodies are still active and present in the puppy from the mother's colostrum. The maternal antibodies identify the vaccines as infectious organisms and destroy them before they can stimulate an immune response.

Many breeders and owners have sought a safer immunization program. 

*Modified Live Vaccines (MLV)*

Modified-live vaccines contain a weakened strain of the disease causing agent. Weakening of the agent is typically accomplished by chemical means or by genetic engineering. These vaccines replicate within the host, thus increasing the amount of material available for provoking an immune response without inducing clinical illness. This provocation primes the immune system to mount a vigorous response if the disease causing agent is ever introduced to the animal. Further, the immunity provided by a modified-live vaccine develops rather swiftly and since they mimic infection with the actual disease agent, it provides the best immune response.

*Inactivated Vaccines (Killed)*

Inactivated vaccines contain killed disease causing agents. Since the agent is killed, it is much more stable and has a longer shelf life, there is no possibility that they will revert to a virulent form, and they never spread from the vaccinated host to other animals. They are also safe for use in pregnant animals (a developing fetus may be susceptible to damage by some of the disease agents, even though attenuated, present in modified-live vaccines). Although more than a single dose of vaccine is always required and the duration of immunity is generally shorter, inactivated vaccines are regaining importance in this age of retrovirus and herpesvirus infections and concern about the safety of genetically modified microorganisms. Inactivated vaccines available for use in dogs include rabies, canine parvovirus, canine coronavirus, etc.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310/ 828-4804
fax: 310/ 828-8251

Note: This schedule is the one I recommend and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice. For breeds or families of dogs susceptible to or affected with immune dysfunction, immune-mediated disease, immune-reactions associated with vaccinations, or autoimmune endocrine disease (e.g., thyroiditis, Addison's or Cushing's disease, diabetes, etc.) the above protocol is recommended.

After 1 year, annually measure serum antibody titers against specific canine infectious agents such as distemper and parvovirus. This is especially recommended for animals previously experiencing adverse vaccine reactions or breeds at higher risk for such reactions (e.g., Weimaraner, Akita, American Eskimo, Great Dane).

Another alternative to booster vaccinations is homeopathic nosodes. This option is considered an unconventional treatment that has not been scientifically proven to be efficacious. One controlled parvovirus nosode study did not adequately protect puppies under challenged conditions. However, data from Europe and clinical experience in North America support its use. If veterinarians choose to use homeopathic nosodes, their clients should be provided with an appropriate disclaimer and written informed consent should be obtained.

I use only killed 3 year rabies vaccine for adults and give it separated from other vaccines by 3-4 weeks. In some states, they may be able to give titer test result in lieu of booster.

I do NOT use Bordetella, corona virus, leptospirosis or Lyme vaccines unless these diseases are endemic in the local area pr specific kennel. Furthermore, the currently licensed leptospira bacterins do not contain the serovars causing the majority of clinical leptospirosis today.

I do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET


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## Bones

I wish you had posted this a couple weeks sooner...been having issues with my dog since his annual boosters- though the two may not be related. Oh well  Very useful in either case. If I had known then what I know now I would have opted to skip the Bortedella at least.


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## jasminesmom

Kris I appreciate the update on vaccines.

How is Bones doing today?


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## Kris L. Christine

jasminesmom said:


> Kris I appreciate the update on vaccines.


You're welcome. You may also be interested in the following:

The *World Small Animal Veterinay Association's 2010 Guidelines for the Vaccination of Dogs and Cats* are available online http://www.wsava.org/VGG1.htm (scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2010

http://www.wsava.org/PDF/Misc/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf



Bones said:


> I wish you had posted this a couple weeks sooner...been having issues with my dog since his annual boosters- though the two may not be related. ... If I had known then what I know now I would have opted to skip the Bortedella at least.


Bones, please e-mail privately at [email protected] and I will send you Dr. W. Jean Dodds' vaccinosis treatment for your dog.

Also, regarding the bordatella vaccine, the following may be helpful:

In an article from the October-December 2007, Vol. 26, #3 _Journal of American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association_, entitled _Summary of a Presentation by Dr. Ron Schultz_ written by Patricia Monahan Jordan, DVM, it states that *"Kennel cough is not a vaccinatable disease, realize this and stop the boarding kennels from making the dogs sick."*

Dr. Ronald Schultz declares in his *An Update on What Everyone Needs to KNow about Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs" *http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines.htm published in the 2008 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the AHVMA, Pages 325-336: *"kennel cough is not preventable with vaccines."*

Regarding the *Bordetella* (Kennel Cough) vaccine, on Page 2 of the _American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, _http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm it states that "Optional or 'noncore' vaccines are those that the committee believe should be considered only in special circumstances because their use is more dependent on the exposure risk of the individual animal. Issues of geographic distribution and lifestyle should be considered before administering these vaccines. In addition, the diseases involved are generally self-limiting or respond readily to treatment. The committee believes this group of vaccines comprises distemper-meases virus (D-MV), canine parainfluenza virus (CPIV), Leptospira spp., Bordetella bronchispetica, and Borrelia burdorferi." 

Further, on Page 14 of the _AAHA Guidelines_, it states: *"Bordetella bronchiseptica (B. bronchiseptica): Bordetella bronchiseptica is another cause of the “kennel cough” syn-drome. Infection in some susceptible dogs generally causes a self-limiting, upper respiratory disease and rarely causes life-threatening disease in otherwise healthy animals. Clini-cal disease resolves quickly when treated with appropriate antibiotics. Vaccination does not block infection but appears to lessen clinical disease, and vaccines provide a short DOI (<1 year) [table 2]. It is also unknown whether current vaccine strains protect against all field strains."*


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## cshellenberger

Kris,
I merged these threads so they could become a sticky at the top of the forum.


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## kallonwatson

I have a puppy. He is Golden Retriever. His name is Brunoo. He is just 9 weeks old. I got my puppy with the help of a dog and puppy website called e-dogsite. I got many tips to handle my puppy from the same site. All the necessary vaccinations required till his this age had been already given to him. Now it's my responsibility to look after his health. I searched my results online related to vaccination. I got so many results but maximum results vary in name and list of vaccinations according to age group. So can anybody help in this case? I am in need of a proper required vaccination list along with age group. Suggestions are appreciated !

Well I have consulted to a vet also!


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## Kris L. Christine

kallonwatson said:


> I have a puppy. He is Golden Retriever. His name is Brunoo. He is just 9 weeks old. I got my puppy with the help of a dog and puppy website called e-dogsite. I got many tips to handle my puppy from the same site. All the necessary vaccinations required till his this age had been already given to him. Now it's my responsibility to look after his health. I searched my results online related to vaccination. I got so many results but maximum results vary in name and list of vaccinations according to age group. So can anybody help in this case? I am in need of a proper required vaccination list along with age group. Suggestions are appreciated !
> 
> Well I have consulted to a vet also!


You might want to look at Dr. W. Jean Dodds' vaccination protocol at this thread: http://www.dogforums.com/13-dog-health-questions/80450-all-about-vaccine-issues.html


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## cshellenberger

Actually I merged that into this thread, scroll up to post #8.


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## Fuzzy Pants

I really wish I had seen this on Monday.  We took our beloved old dog to the vet on Tuesday for her annual vaccinations. The only thing the vet warned us about is that she might cough a bit in reaction to the bordetella vaccine. He didn't mention anything about it being unnecessary. She was an inside dog that never came in contact with other dogs. She was almost 17 yrs. old but seemed like she would live months if not a year longer. However, after getting vaccinated she seemed really tired/weak for the rest of the evening, slept late and then in the morning she started wheezing, collapsed on the floor, then convulsed and died within a minute. We're all heartbroken. We know she was old but her death was so sudden. Old age and arthritis had slowed her down but she still had her playful puppy moments up until the day before we took her to the vet. We expected to have a few more months to love and enjoy her company before having to say goodbye. I feel like I failed her for not being more informed. All these years she's received annual vaccinations that were unnecessary and the last set killed her. The only consolation is that she didn't suffer long.


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## jasminesmom

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I have learned the hard way also to not always trust a vet and to do research before anything is given.

My thoughts and prayers are with your family.

Hugs,


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## Kris L. Christine

Fuzzy Pants said:


> I really wish I had seen this on Monday.  We took our beloved old dog to the vet on Tuesday for her annual vaccinations. The only thing the vet warned us about is that she might cough a bit in reaction to the bordetella vaccine. He didn't mention anything about it being unnecessary. She was an inside dog that never came in contact with other dogs. She was almost 17 yrs. old but seemed like she would live months if not a year longer. However, after getting vaccinated she seemed really tired/weak for the rest of the evening, slept late and then in the morning she started wheezing, collapsed on the floor, then convulsed and died within a minute. We're all heartbroken. We know she was old but her death was so sudden. Old age and arthritis had slowed her down but she still had her playful puppy moments up until the day before we took her to the vet. We expected to have a few more months to love and enjoy her company before having to say goodbye. I feel like I failed her for not being more informed. All these years she's received annual vaccinations that were unnecessary and the last set killed her. The only consolation is that she didn't suffer long.


Fuzzypants, what a horrible experience for you and your precious girl, I am so sorry.

Please make sure that you report this vaccinal adverse reaction so that the body of data on these types of events will more accurately reflect the actual rate of these occurrences. You can find out how to do that at this link.

Personally, I would switch veterinarians if you have any other pets.


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## Fuzzy Pants

Can I get that link again to report the reaction? I think it will be months to a year before we are ready to get another dog. She was like a child to the whole family and we feel we need to honor her memory a little longer before we can commit to adopting another one. But when we are ready we will go to the same shelter where we got her. And we will try to find a better vet but finding a vet in MS that doesn't vaccinate every year will be difficult. I have a hard enough time explaining to my general practitioner that I don't need an antibiotic when it is the flu virus I have. I'm sure they learn in medical school the difference between a virus and bacterium and that antibiotics are over-prescribed in this country, not to mention have no affect on viruses. But still they dole them out like candy despite being advised not to by the CDC because of kick-backs they get from the pharmaceutical companies. So I'm sure I'm going to have to go to battle with any Vet here about annuals no matter what all the current and new research shows is best for pets.


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## jasminesmom

Fuzzy Pants,

You can go to the FDA website for this info: 
http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ReportaProblem/ucm055305.htm


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## cshellenberger

Fuzzy Pants said:


> Can I get that link again to report the reaction? I think it will be months to a year before we are ready to get another dog. She was like a child to the whole family and we feel we need to honor her memory a little longer before we can commit to adopting another one. But when we are ready we will go to the same shelter where we got her. And we will try to find a better vet but finding a vet in MS that doesn't vaccinate every year will be difficult. I have a hard enough time explaining to my general practitioner that I don't need an antibiotic when it is the flu virus I have. I'm sure they learn in medical school the difference between a virus and bacterium and that antibiotics are over-prescribed in this country, not to mention have no affect on viruses. But still they dole them out like candy despite being advised not to by the CDC because of kick-backs they get from the pharmaceutical companies. So I'm sure I'm going to have to go to battle with any Vet here about annuals no matter what all the current and new research shows is best for pets.


 
What part of MS? I'm from there and we have other members who live in the state and may be able to help you.


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## Kris L. Christine

Fuzzy Pants said:


> Can I get that link again to report the reaction? .


Sorry about that, information is below.

You can find a homeopathic/holistic veterinarian near you by searching at the following links: American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association http://www.holisticvetlist.com/, Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy http://www.theavh.org/referral/index.php . Remember, all vaccinations except for rabies are *optional*, the law does not require you to vacciante your dogs against distemper, hepatitis, parvo, etc..., so *you* are the one to make the final choice about what your dogs receive, not your veterinarian, and if they are bullying you into a protocol that you are not comfortable with, then you need to look for another veterinary care provider.


http://www.dogs4dogs.com/truth4dogs.html

Report adverse reactions (side effects) of vaccines here: 

This is a new page from the AVMA: http://www.avma.org/animal_health/reporting_adverse_events.asp 
On-line reporting form: https://web01.aphis.usda.gov/CVB/adverseeventreport.nsf/Adverse Event Report Form?OpenForm You'll need to get a lot of the information from your vet. Do not expect your vet to make the report. Underreporting is commonplace.

More reporting information and options: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/vet_biologics/vb_adverse_event.shtml

The FDA admits that vaccines are not tested for safety except by vaccine manufacturing companies. Reporting agencies report that vets do not reliably report adverse reactions. (The FDA's estimate for all medical communities is 1%.) The FDA relies on the public to report problems once the drug or biologic is released into the public.


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## Becky Sharpe

Vaccinations are an issue I get very angry about. On our boarding kennels website we spell out that triennial is fine as far as we are concerned, but still the vets pressure owners to have annual boosters and if they mention they are going to be kenneled insist that we (!!) require it to accept their dog. We have never required it for the reasons given earlier in the thread, that it is self-limiting, not serious in a healthy dog and all strains are not necessarily covered.

Many owners are appreciative of our attitude, but others say they have to take the vet's advice. One client recently arrived with a newly vaccinated dog and I pointed out that he didn't need to get the boosters done for our benefit; he replied that the vet had said it was unnecessary but the kennels insisted on it! He was not a happy bunny.

I'll post again on my blog with some references to here and hope that more people start to absorb the fact that annual vaccinations are all about covering the practice's running costs. Thanks for all the details, extremely useful Kris


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## Masterjedi688

Fuzzy Pants said:


> I really wish I had seen this on Monday.  We took our beloved old dog to the vet on Tuesday for her annual vaccinations. The only thing the vet warned us about is that she might cough a bit in reaction to the bordetella vaccine. He didn't mention anything about it being unnecessary. She was an inside dog that never came in contact with other dogs. She was almost 17 yrs. old but seemed like she would live months if not a year longer. However, after getting vaccinated she seemed really tired/weak for the rest of the evening, slept late and then in the morning she started wheezing, collapsed on the floor, then convulsed and died within a minute. We're all heartbroken. We know she was old but her death was so sudden. Old age and arthritis had slowed her down but she still had her playful puppy moments up until the day before we took her to the vet. We expected to have a few more months to love and enjoy her company before having to say goodbye. I feel like I failed her for not being more informed. All these years she's received annual vaccinations that were unnecessary and the last set killed her. The only consolation is that she didn't suffer long.


Fuzzy pants I'm so sorry for your loss. Apart from finding a new vet like Kris said, I would tell him that he was wrong in giving the vaccine to your dog. It was not necessary. He or she needs to be told of there mistake and what it cost you. Again sorry for your loss.


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## 5 s corral

fuzzy pants so sorry for your loss


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## Kris L. Christine

ben46valdez said:


> Thanks for the post
> 
> Very good post Thanks


You're quite welcome.


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## janesheetz

Oh how I wish I had seen this sooner!!! We adopted our dog about a month ago. He is the perfect dog for us!! He is house trained, quiet (hardly barks at all and only outside), knows basic commands and is learning others quickly. My children love him so much!! Last Tuesday, I took him in to the vet for a grooming and general check-up since he is new to us. They said he needed a rabies shot for them to do the grooming. I thought that seemed reasonable so I said okay. They didn't tell me *anything* about possible side-effects. And now I'm 99% sure he is having adverse reactions. He has become very lethargic, his muscles twitch constantly, he hasn't eaten or drank anything in 2 days and this morning he peed in my house. THAT is not normal. The only other time he did that was less than a week ago (also after the vaccination). 
I am so angry that I wasn't told about the possible side-effects!!!!!!! And after having some time to think about it, I shouldn't have gotten the vaccine at all because of his history. We don't know anything about it!! He was found as a stray in March. No one came looking for him so the shelter adopted him out. We have no idea where he came from, when his last vaccination was, or what vaccines he's had. And he's an indoor dog with no contact with at-risk animals.
Do these symptoms go away?

Jane


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## cshellenberger

Jane, get him to a vet ASAP! Lethargy and being off food is serious.


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## Fuzzy Pants

cshellenberger said:


> What part of MS? I'm from there and we have other members who live in the state and may be able to help you.



At the time I was in Jackson but have since moved to Michigan and have since adopted a puppy.


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## Weasley

Regarding the distemper vaccine before 6 weeks, the initial poster said: "At this age, maternal antibodies form the mothers milk (colostrum) will neutralize the vaccine and only 30% for puppies will be protected. 100% will be exposed to the virus at the vet clinic."


This disturbs me. We have a a nearly 5 month old puppy who recieved his intitial shot from the breeder at 5 weeks. We were not informed he needed booster shots (this is our first dog ever) and we just took him to the vet for the first time at 16 weeks, where he got a booster. 

Does this mean he was not immune from anything from the time we got him (8 weeks) until his trip to the vet at 16 weeks? What are the chances he has distemper or something else? Thanks.


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## cshellenberger

He may have had some immunity (all animals have working immune systems unless there is something wrong) but not the same as he would have had if the breeder had waited a couple weeks to do the shots and you had followed up at 10-12 weeks. Frankly ANY time you get a dog it should be examined by a vet within 72 hours after bringing it home, this protects you, the pup and the pewrson you got it from whether it's the shelter, a resscue or the breeder (in fact most breeders have it in their contract that you MUST have the pup examined or it will void the health gaurantee).

As far as exposure, you'd know if he had distemper or parvo within 14 days.


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## Kris L. Christine

Weasley, if I were you, I would have my puppy titered in 3 weeks to see if there is an antibody count for the 3 core vaccines: distemper, hepatitis, and parvo (there should be). Then, if there is a titer count, I personally would never vaccinate my dog against those diseases again -- those vaccines are modified live virus vaccines (MLV's) just as the MLV polio vaccine for humans is, and they confer very long, if not lifetime durations of immunity. 

According to a study published in the January 2010 issue of Journal of Comparative Pathology entitled, Age and Long-term Protective Immunity in Dogs and Cats by Dr. Ronald Schultz, et als., "Old dogs and cats rarely die from vaccine-preventable infectious disease, especially when they have been vaccinated and immunized as young adults (*i.e. between 16 weeks and 1 year of age*). However, young animals do die, often because vaccines were either not given or not given at an appropriate age (e.g. too early in life in the presence of maternally derived antibody [MDA]). ....The present study examines the DOI for core viral vaccines in dogs that had not been revaccinated for as long as 9 years. These animals had serum antibody to canine distemper virus (CDV), canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) and canine adenovirus type-1 (CAV-1) at levels considered protective and when challenged with these viruses, the dogs resisted infection and/or disease. Thus, even a single dose of modified live virus (MLV) canine core vaccines (against CDV, cav-2 and cpv-2) or MLV feline core vaccines (against feline parvovirus [FPV], feline calicivirus [FCV] and feline herpesvirus [FHV]), when *administered at 16 weeks or older, could provide long-term immunity in a very high percentage of animals,* while also increasing herd immunity." http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=fb57fe5e84a086c6b1fa65abea55dbd8


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## Weasley

Thank you both!


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## OliveSheprador

Ahh, thank you - great post. I'm so glad to see this community sticks behind logic like this instead of very anti or very by-the-vet vaccination opinions. I am for vaccinating your animals - but agree that (at least in the U.S. where I live) vaccinations are given too often *unnecessarily* and can cause harm due to over-vaccinating. 

On the flip side, I seem to run into a lot of people who proudly exclaim things like, "I don't vaccinate my animals!" and think we should all praise them for it and follow suit. Sorry, but I think that's irresponsible. I've heard of too many puppies dying due to parvo, distemper, etc. But forget trying to explain this to them. You get back nasty comments like, "Well if my dog gets sick, it's other people's fault for keeping these diseases in the eco-system."

Hmm.


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## Kris L. Christine

Whatever vaccinal choices pet owners make for their animals, I think the most important thing is that they make an *informed* choice.


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## Lucy B

Wow - information overload.

So basically from what I can figure most vets vaccinate dogs annualy when there is no need for it and when possible dangers can occur?

I'm going into the vets in 2 days time for Jukes's and Bella's annual vaccinations - this will be Jukes's first set - he's a year old but Bella is about 9 years old. 

So what are the vaccinations that they should get - I'm really confused and I would like to know before we go to the vet - should Bella have any at all? She was handed into a shelter without any certificates - then I got her and the shelter said she'd need her annual shots again in August but now I'm wondering whether she should. She's an indoor dog but obviously comes into contact with Jukes and other dogs on walks etc

Jukes had Distemper,Parvo,Hepatitis, Rabies - which I think are okay - but he also had Bordetella - which I'm not sure about. 

Sorry for the long post - basic question - what vaccines do they need?
Thankyou


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## Kris L. Christine

Lucy B said:


> So what are the vaccinations that they should get - I'm really confused and I would like to know before we go to the vet - should Bella have any at all?


Lucy, here is Dr. W. Jean Dodds' Latest Recommendation Vaccination Schedule for those of you who are interested.

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

*Dr. Jean Dodds' Recommended Vaccination Schedule *

*Distemper (MLV)* 
_Initial_ (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks 
_1st Annual Booster_ At 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only 
_Re-Administration Interval_ *None needed.*
*Duration of immunity 7.5 / 15 years by studies. Probably lifetime.* Longer studies pending. 
_Comments _Can have numerous side effects if given too young (< 8 weeks). 

*Parvovirus (MLV)*
_Initial_ (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks 
_1st Annual Booster_At 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only 
_Re-Administration Interval_ *None needed.*
*Duration of immunity 7.5 years by studies. Probably lifetime*. Longer studies pending. 
_Comments _At 6 weeks of age, only 30% of puppies are protected but 100% are exposed to the virus at the vet clinic. 

*Rabies (killed) *
_Initial_ 24 weeks or older 
_1st Annual Booster_At 1 year (give 3-4 weeks apart from Dist/Parvo booster) Killed 3 year rabies vaccine
_Re-Administration Interval_ 3 yr. vaccine given as required by law in California (follow your state/provincial requirements) 
_Comments _rabid animals may infect dogs. 

*Vaccines Not Recommended For Dogs *

*Distemper & Parvo @ 6 weeks or younger*
Not recommended.
At this age, maternal antibodies form the mothers milk (colostrum) will neutralize the vaccine and only 30% for puppies will be protected. 100% will be exposed to the virus at the vet clinic. 

*Corona *
Not recommended.
1.) Disease only affects dogs <6 weeks of age.
2.) Rare disease: TAMU has seen only one case in seven years.
3.) Mild self-limiting disease.
4.) Efficacy of the vaccine is questionable. 

*Leptospirosis*
Not recommended
1) There are an average of 12 cases reported annually in California.
2) Side effects common.
3) Most commonly used vaccine contains the wrong serovars. (There is no cross-protection of serovars) There is a new vaccine with 2 new serovars. Two vaccinations twice per year would be required for protection.).
4) Risk outweighs benefits.

*Lyme* 
Not recommended
1) Low risk in California.
2) 85% of cases are in 9 New England states and Wisconsin.
3) Possible side effect of polyarthritis from whole cell bacterin. 

*Boretella*
(Intranasal)
(killed) Only recommended 3 days prior to boarding when required.
Protects against 2 of the possible 8 causes of kennel cough.
Duration of immunity 6 months. 

*Giardia* 
Not recommended
Efficacy of vaccine unsubstantiated by independent studies 

There are two types of vaccines currently available to veterinarians: modified-live vaccines and inactivated ("killed") vaccines.

*Immunization Schedules*

There is a great deal of controversy and confusion surrounding the appropriate immunization schedule, especially with the availability of modified-live vaccines and breeders who have experienced postvaccinal problems when using some of these vaccines. It is also important to not begin a vaccination program while maternal antibodies are still active and present in the puppy from the mother's colostrum. The maternal antibodies identify the vaccines as infectious organisms and destroy them before they can stimulate an immune response.

Many breeders and owners have sought a safer immunization program. 

*Modified Live Vaccines (MLV)*

Modified-live vaccines contain a weakened strain of the disease causing agent. Weakening of the agent is typically accomplished by chemical means or by genetic engineering. These vaccines replicate within the host, thus increasing the amount of material available for provoking an immune response without inducing clinical illness. This provocation primes the immune system to mount a vigorous response if the disease causing agent is ever introduced to the animal. Further, the immunity provided by a modified-live vaccine develops rather swiftly and since they mimic infection with the actual disease agent, it provides the best immune response.

*Inactivated Vaccines (Killed)*

Inactivated vaccines contain killed disease causing agents. Since the agent is killed, it is much more stable and has a longer shelf life, there is no possibility that they will revert to a virulent form, and they never spread from the vaccinated host to other animals. They are also safe for use in pregnant animals (a developing fetus may be susceptible to damage by some of the disease agents, even though attenuated, present in modified-live vaccines). Although more than a single dose of vaccine is always required and the duration of immunity is generally shorter, inactivated vaccines are regaining importance in this age of retrovirus and herpesvirus infections and concern about the safety of genetically modified microorganisms. Inactivated vaccines available for use in dogs include rabies, canine parvovirus, canine coronavirus, etc.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310/ 828-4804
fax: 310/ 828-8251

Note: This schedule is the one I recommend and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice. For breeds or families of dogs susceptible to or affected with immune dysfunction, immune-mediated disease, immune-reactions associated with vaccinations, or autoimmune endocrine disease (e.g., thyroiditis, Addison's or Cushing's disease, diabetes, etc.) the above protocol is recommended.

After 1 year, annually measure serum antibody titers against specific canine infectious agents such as distemper and parvovirus. This is especially recommended for animals previously experiencing adverse vaccine reactions or breeds at higher risk for such reactions (e.g., Weimaraner, Akita, American Eskimo, Great Dane).

Another alternative to booster vaccinations is homeopathic nosodes. This option is considered an unconventional treatment that has not been scientifically proven to be efficacious. One controlled parvovirus nosode study did not adequately protect puppies under challenged conditions. However, data from Europe and clinical experience in North America support its use. If veterinarians choose to use homeopathic nosodes, their clients should be provided with an appropriate disclaimer and written informed consent should be obtained.

I use only killed 3 year rabies vaccine for adults and give it separated from other vaccines by 3-4 weeks. In some states, they may be able to give titer test result in lieu of booster.

I do NOT use Bordetella, corona virus, leptospirosis or Lyme vaccines unless these diseases are endemic in the local area pr specific kennel. Furthermore, the currently licensed leptospira bacterins do not contain the serovars causing the majority of clinical leptospirosis today.

I do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET
_____________________________________________________________________________

Below are links to excellent information on veterinary vaccines from authoritative sources:

*Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know*, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm 

*What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines,* Dr. Ronald Schultz 
http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines.htm 

*Age and Long-term Protective Immunity in Dogs and Cats*, Dr. Ronald Schultz et als., _Journal of Comparative Pathology_ January 2010 http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=fb57fe5e84a086c6b1fa65abea55dbd8 

*Genetically Engineered and Modified Live Virus Vaccines;Public Health and Animal Welfare Concerns* by Michael W. Fox BVetMed,PhD,DSc.MRCVS 
http://www.twobitdog.com/drfox/specialreport_Article.aspx?ID=273f53f4-bcdc-474f-a189-cca1d1a81c38

*Vaccination: An Overview* Dr. Melissa Kennedy, DVM360 http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=568351

*World Small Animal Veterinay Association's 2010 Guidelines for the Vaccination of Dogs and Cats* http://www.wsava.org/VGG1.htm (scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2010 http://www.wsava.org/PDF/Misc/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf 

*World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines* http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF) 

The *2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines *are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The *2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines *are downloadable in PDF format at 
http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/VaccineGuidelines06Revised.pdf

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

October 1, 2002 _DVM Newsletter_ article entitled,* AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions*, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=35171

July 1, 2003 _DVM Newsletter _article entitled, *What Do We Tell Our Clients?*, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61696

July 1, 2003, _DVM Newsletter _ article, *Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes *http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61694

_Animal Wellness Magazine_ Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, *How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot* Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

*The Rabies Challenge* Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

*The Vaccine Challenge * Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), *Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly* March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041987.htm *"A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "*


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## MinaMinPin

Are there any vaccines that have serious side effects? Can a pregnant dog receive vaccines?


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## Willowy

Pinballdoctor, if you read carefully I think you'll notice that nothing you have posted says that vaccines are useless, in fact the main argument seems to be that they're far MORE effective than previously believed. Yes, there are side effects caused by vaccines, but there are side effects to getting Parvo, too. Yes, vaccines should not be given annually. Even the AVMA says so.

And yes, vets frequently overuse and misrepresent vaccines, and something should be done about that. But vaccines are useful, and without them we'd be in big trouble. Check out the rabies rates in China, Southeast Asia, and Eastern Europe. I would prefer not to live in fear that my dog will die from rabies, and kill me in the meantime.


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## Pawzk9

Well, pinball. All of this is quite old stuff, and I imagine most of us have seen it before. O'Driscoll's science seems rather questionable (having read some of her stuff and asked her questions that just made her angry instead of getting answered) and Dr. Bob Rogers from Texas, weeellllll. Just because there's a DVM behind your name doesn't guarantee that you're not a crackpot (though I have to agree that Corona is a vaccination looking for a disease.) Somewhere between vaccinating your dog yearly for every possible disease and thinking that all vets are Satan out to kill your dog for money and jollies, there IS a middle ground which recognizes that sometimes vaccines are a lesser danger than the disease they vaccinate against, sometimes they are not, and that nothing in life is totally without risk or guarantees that your dog will live forever. Still, while you're digging out all the old anti-vaccination propaganda, I haven't yet seen you provide a single incidence where a dog (or cat) contracted rabies from a vaccination. That is the claim you made and the proof/information for which several people have asked.


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## Crantastic

pinballdoctor said:


> But after a few posts, it has become obvious that most here are living in the dark ages, but hey, if you want to believe in fairy tales thats ok. You keep on vaccinating your pets every year, and make sure you protect them from Lyme and Corona to. And while you're at it, maybe they should be vaccinated every month just to be sure they are protected, after all, you can't be too careful.


Hyperbolic, much? Many of us here vaccinate our dogs only every three years. Some of us only give the puppy series and then a booster at one year. Some titer and only vaccinate when necessary. My vet doesn't recommend vaccinating every year anymore, and I know she's not alone.



> As far as your quote goes, I did not state that a killed rabies virus would give a dog rabies. I said mistakes get made, and refered to the "cutter incident" where live polio virus was used instead of killed virus. This "accident" cost alot of children their health, and in some cases, their lives. Do you think for one minute this couldn't happen with a batch of rabies vaccine? Do you think they check each batch to make sure the virus is killed?


Yes. As Lindbert said in the other thread:



Lindbert said:


> Hey.. Guess what I do for a living.. I work in a viral vaccine manufacturing facility! I can tell you with 100% certainty that there is NO chance of a lot of vaccine making it out of any plant without being completely inactivated today. The checks and balance incorporated in every step of the process assure that such a gross oversight will NOT occur. It may have happened in the 1950s but today it is absolutely impossible.





Lindbert said:


> I can assure you that every single lot of ANY viral vaccine that is produced in the US or produced for consumption in the US goes through a multi-step validation process that guarantees that every single dose of the vaccine is at the correct potency and/or is completely inactivated. Like I said before.. with modern GMP practices there is no way that any vaccine can leave the plant without being completely inactivated.





> Perhaps this board is not ready for the truth.


If by that you mean we won't buy what you're selling without questioning you and asking for proof, then sure, we're "not ready for the truth."


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## Pawzk9

pinballdoctor said:


> [
> Well, lets see... I've been here for two days and have already been called a crackpot, an idiot, and have been asked what I'm smoking/drinking..
> 
> When I first came here and saw the post on vaccines- Dodds and Schultz, I thought the people here must be ahead of the curve. They really seem to know about vaccines.
> 
> But after a few posts, it has become obvious that most here are living in the dark ages, but hey, if you want to believe in fairy tales thats ok. You keep on vaccinating your pets every year, and make sure you protect them from Lyme and Corona to. And while you're at it, maybe they should be vaccinated every month just to be sure they are protected, after all, you can't be too careful...


If you actually read my posts (which I must assume since you are responding to me), you would have noted that I don't vaccinate every year, and don't ever vaccinate for non-core diseases. In fact, I titer for parvo and distemper, and haven't had to vaccinate an adult dog yet. I do rabies every three years as required by law.



pinballdoctor said:


> [
> As far as your quote goes, I did not state that a killed rabies virus would give a dog rabies...




This is a direct quote of what you said in your first post on the subject: 
*"I hate to tell you this, but a rabies shot can give a dog rabies"* Backpedalling doesn't work very well here. Too easy to find the actual statement. Still waiting for you to show proof of what you stated.



pinballdoctor said:


> I am the other side of the coin. I am the monkey in the wrench. I have different views than most, however, I can disagree with someone without name calling or sarcasm.
> 
> Perhaps this board is not ready for the truth.


Actually, I think the saying you are seeking is "a monkey wrench in the works" (or if you're a Brit "a spanner in the works") But nope. You're just a koolade drinker of a different color. Just because people come to another conclusion from the same evidence doesn't mean they are wrong, or they are "not ready for the truth". It just means they don't agree with you.


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## Active Dog

> As far as your quote goes, I did not state that a killed rabies virus would give a dog rabies.


Hummm....



> (rabies shot has live virus and can actually cause rabies)





> I hate to tell you this, but a rabies shot can give a dog rabies.


Nuff said....


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## Willowy

pinballdoctor said:


> We are brainwashed into thinking vaccines save lives, however, they are neither safe nor effective


Safety can be argued. I choose to think that minimal vaccination is safer than the diseases, you choose to think that the disease is less of a risk than the vaccine. Whatever floats your boat. 

But I don't know how you can say they aren't effective (the core vaccines anyway, not the more ineffective types like bordetella). I don't need studies. . .my vaccinated dogs didn't get Parvo, and my neighbor's unvaccinated dog did. In countries with rampant rabies, vaccinated dogs don't get it, unvaccinated dogs do. Back before the Distemper vaccine came out, a large percentage of puppies died from it, and the survivors frequently had permanent neurological damage. Now that a vaccine is readily available, Distemper is fairly rare. In countries where human vaccines aren't as available, a lot of children (adults too, but mostly babies) die from tetanus. In countries with ready access to vaccine, almost nobody dies from tetanus. In fact, Uganda was able to practically eliminate tetanus as a neonatal mortality factor, through a concetrated vaccination effort. I'm not really sure what else can be said about efficacy.


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## MinaMinPin

Thanks for that information, pinballdoctor.


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## Pawzk9

pinballdoctor said:


> The following is a short youtube video featuring veterinarian Dr. patricia Jordan, speaking on vaccination.
> 
> She has more degrees than a thermometer.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5J-6MZyeH8


She doesn't have more degrees than my vet. I don't see her claiming that vaccination causes rabies (the one statement you've been challenged on) and the vet she claims as a mentor makes a differentiation between vaccination and over-vaccination.


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## Pawzk9

pinballdoctor said:


> Dr Patricia Jordan's response on the current distemper and the new parvo strain that are being found in VACCINATED dogs
> by Pet Vaccine Education on Monday, May 10, 2010 at 4:07pm.Dr Patricia Jordan's email to Dr Jeannie Thomason
> 
> 
> Using the one vaccine at 16 weeks of age is not now according to Dr. Dodds what Dr. Ron Schultz is advocating even in his minimal ...vaccine protocol and these are the reasons....................
> 
> The vaccine schedule of 9/12/16 weeks is advocated over the 16 week only, well it was always a consideration for pups with more exposure risks at an early stage. However, Dr Dodds stated that even "properly vaccinated" dogs are still being infected and are dying......so much for the vaccine.
> 
> What I have to wonder is about these genetically engineered vaccines and if they are responsible. Appears Dr. Ron Schultz is working on this. Gene sequencing should allow us to also find the origin of the problem viruses and I certainly won't be surprised to see it lead to the vaccines in use.
> 
> Vaccines keep the disease in play.
> 
> I certainly will not be surprised if the chimera viruses turn out to be reverting reshuffling,recombining or whatever.
> 
> I just hope we learn the truth and the truth behind the part the vaccines play in distributing disease, beyond the immune system disruption and disregulation that we already are aware of.


I have no idea what you are trying to say in the first sentence (too many words? Too few words? Wrong words? but I am familiar with Dr. Dodds vaccination protocol and it doesn't start vaccination at 16 weeks. While vaccination CAN fail, it does reduce clinical disease. And Parvo has gone from killing great numbers of dogs to killing a few who were unvaccinated or too young to be fully vaccinated. Distemper is no longer the deadly danger it once was, because most dogs in our country are now vaccinated. And the dogs who are vaccinated actually protect those whose owners choose alternatives. (Personally, I'm not going to assume that because I have four generations of raw fed, unvaccinated dogs that my dogs are less likely to get sick than anyone else's dog) Nobody is discounting reduced vaccination protocols (many of us believe in them, and go to vets who use them). The only objections have been to crazy claims about plots to intentionally expose wild animals to disease so the drug companies can sell more vaccine, and a to-yet unsubstaniated claim that rabies vaccination gives dogs rabies.


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## Pawzk9

pinballdoctor said:


> Curriculum Vitae
> Patricia Monahan Jordan, DVM
> .


Clue bucket: workshops, reiki attunement, continuing education units (required for many professionals to maintain their credentials) and getting a letter to the editor published do not "degrees" make.


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## cshellenberger

And now that pinball has trashed an informative thread on reduced vaccine protocols with dangerous information I'm locking it.


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