# I am scared of my cattle dog



## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Background:
My husband and I adopted our 2.5 yo cattle dog (Wilson) in March from a local breeder (WA state). The dog previously was a conformation show dog (for the first year of his life). He previously lived in Colorado with the co-owner/breeder on lots of acreage. Apparently a family had taken him last year and asked permission to get him fixed because he was marking inside their house. Ultimately, they returned him to the co-owner/breeder.

The co-owner/breeder we got him from in WA brought him home to their farm where he had been since winter 2012. He lived mainly outside in a kennel - nights were inside in a crate. He was not a house dog. 

My husband and I did a lot of research before we decided on getting a cattle dog and when we met with the breeder, we specifically asked her questions about our concerns (e.g. we work all day, do not have a large yard but there are lots of parks and other places to take him to, wouldn't be able to exercise a lot in the morning-but would go on hour+ walks in the evenings, plus we wanted to do agility with him) She replied that she thought he would be just fine with all of this. The reason she agreed to getting Wilson neutered (he was 2 points away from his championship) was because they weren't going to breed him because he didn't display a strong enough herding instinct. She wanted to have Wilson become a family dog where he would get more one on one attention with people.

The first month we had him, he was amazing. Walked well on leash, was friendly when greeting other dogs (either at dog park or on walks), non-reactive to passing cars, was relaxed during car rides, learned obedience commands quickly. We thought - "this is so wonderful!" The only issue we had was he nipped and mouthed...A LOT. We knew this was behavior that he needed to unlearn. 

From approximately late April until now - things have been going steadily downhill. It is now to the point where I am, literally, nervous/scared around Wilson - which I know he can pick up on and probably uses it to his advantage. 

1) I have been bit twice on the face, which caused minor bruising, and once on my upper arm - this one cause major bruising.

2) When I go to give a simple "down" command (with hand gesture), he growls at me (teeth showing).

3) He has attacked our 19 yo cat twice. Last time (3 weeks ago) cat and myself ended up in the ER. Cat has been living in a separate room of the house since we brought Wilson home and saw how he acted with her. The times that he has gotten a hold of her were very sad instances when I accidentally left the door to her room open (thinking the dog was outside) while I went in to check on her.

4) He barks and whines whenever my husband and I kiss/hug. Has jumped up on us a couple times. He also barks at me whenever I get into bed with my husband at night.

5) We no longer take him to the dog park because he has attacked several other dogs - once blood was drawn. Owner of other dog was very friendly about it saying "no biggie, my dogs do that all the time at home". But it is a VERY BIG deal to us. 

6) Lunges at other dogs while out on walks.

7) Goes crazy over passing cars on the street (understandable - herding dog...) But, dangerous nonetheless.

8) Freaks out in the car. We were using a harness/strap for awhile until his lunging and barking got out of control (passing cars). We switched to crating him - but he still barks non-stop and does this frantic digging thing...even if we have the crate covered so he cannot see outside.

9) Has frightened a couple of our guests with the way he barks at them. Guests do the "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" approach whenever they come over. 

10) I was petting him the other day and he quickly turned and nipped at my arm. No warning signal (that I saw anyway). 

We hired a dog behaviorist about a month ago and have been doing a lot of relaxation techniques, desensitization, counter-conditioning, clicker training with him. Unfortunately, he seems to be getting "more" aggressive/anxious (?) the more we use these techniques.

The following is our typical daily routine:
1) Before we leave for work in the morning (around 5:30 or 6am) we put him on the treadmill (6 incline, at 3.5 or 4 mph) for 20-25 minutes. He is panting when he gets off. We feed him using various slow feeders so he has to work harder for his food - also to slow him down. Regardless of how much we feed him, he always acts like he is starving.

2) He is home alone in a bedroom (baby gate in the door), with music playing, for up to 11 hours during work days. He has never had an accident or destroyed anything while we are gone. He has numerous chew toys in the room.

3) If he barks when we come home (which is usually, of course) we ignore him until he stops. That is when we go into the room and let him out in the backyard. (he usually stops barking very quickly since he has learned that being quiet gets him the reward). We then take him on a walk (usually an hour - sometimes more).

4) He gets his dinner when we have dinner. It's in a slow feeder/treat dispenser, which we hide in various places of the house so he has to find it first. 

5) We try to play with him the best we can - he gets overly excited very quickly and that's when painful biting happens. He never was taught to fetch or play with balls - so he has no interest in them. We have been trying to teach him "fetch" - but he will only do it a few times and then lose interest.

6) My husband built an agility jump and we have him do jumps for a bit (which he loves).

7) We do our "relaxation protocol" exercises (these usually take about 30 minutes).

8) We give him an antler to chew on while we relax and watch some tv.

9) Bedtime is around 10pm. He has a kennel in our bedroom which he mainly sleeps in - but we do not close it so he can sleep elsewhere in the house if he chooses.

My husband and I both split all these duties. It's not just one of us always feeding/walking/training Wilson. He knows that he gets good stuff from both of us. We both are on the same page as to the rules of the house (out of the kitchen - not allowed on furniture - etc...)

Next month, we will have had Wilson for 6 months. We are having the dog behaviorist come back later this week. At this point, both my husband and myself are ready to make the decision to return Wilson to the breeder. It is a very painful decision for us - one that we are not making lightly. But, if we are doing the best that we can do - and his aggression/anxiety is only getting worse....then we think that our best is just not good enough for him...and he would be happier in a different setting. 

I guess I'm just looking for some words of wisdom - or if anyone else has had this experience with their cattle dog?

Bottom line is: I don't want to be scared around our dog. Constantly wondering if this will be the time he really does damage to me or another dog. 

I am very honest and open to questions about our situation. I tried to be as thorough as possible.

:help: :yield:


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I really have to ask: 

How much exercise and training is this dog getting? Because 11 hours confined, relaxation protocol, and sleep overnight- that's a LOT of pent up energy and very little stimulation for a high energy, intelligent, working breed. Hour long walk in the morning and evening does NOTHING for mental stimulation or giving the dog a work-out. He needs to be RUNNING for an hour or more a day, as well as being trained enough to keep his mind working. Frankly there's no real benefit for him in that, and being a family dog/not having a herding instinct is pretty much irrelevant to the fact that he needs exercise and training. Like, a lot more than he's getting, no matter what the breeder (who wasn't living with him in her house) said. 

Given that he started out reasonably okay, he honestly sounds like he's going completely stir-crazy to me.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Hi CptJack - I detailed this in my original message under "daily routine". Because he is alone in the house all day and we don't have a huge yard for him to run around in - we were taking him to dog parks where he would tire himself out. But, we can't do that anymore due to him being aggressive with other dogs. 

He gets ongoing training everyday. Plus, we subscribe to the NILIF technique. 

The stir-crazy result is what my husband and I were afraid of and specifically spoke with the breeder about before we bought him.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Is there somewhere secluded you can take him where he can really RUN? With a long line if you don't trust him off-leash. A big field, a dirt road, etc.?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

fiveninegal said:


> Hi CptJack - I detailed this in my original message under "daily routine". Because he is alone in the house all day and we don't have a huge yard for him to run around in - we were taking him to dog parks where he would tire himself out. But, we can't do that anymore due to him being aggressive with other dogs.
> 
> He gets ongoing training everyday. Plus, we subscribe to the NILIF technique.
> 
> The stir-crazy result is what my husband and I were afraid of and specifically spoke with the breeder about before we bought him.



Yeah, I had to go back and read. 

I'll be honest: I have two retired show dogs, that came from a really good breeder. She had a pretty good idea of their personality and behavior in a lot of ways - but a lot gets lost. I'm not blaming you for this, or the breeder, but the fact of the matter is: A breeder is showing a bunch of dogs, raising puppies, and often putting working titles on dogs. The environment the dog is in, is very different, and quite often so is the interaction with the breeder. And this is me, talking about my breeder, who DID have the dogs in her house as pets. That she could tell you he didn't have enough herding drive but doesn't seem to have a clear idea on how energetic he was doesn't surprise me. She would have tested him for working ability, but after that.... Well, how would she know? He wasn't living in her house. 

NILF is great, but it's not exactly training. Real training. Stuff that's hard for him, introduction of new material should be happening too (don't know if it is), but mostly...

This dog needs a lot more exercise, from what I can tell. Everything just seems like over-excitement and over-stimulation. There are some ACD owners who will be along to give you more advice, but I'm willing to bet amongst it is finding a way to get this dog TIRED.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Hi Willowy - no dirt roads really, but there are some fields. The only challenge I see there is that they are fairly crowded right now (summer). We have a 30 foot lead that we have tried in the past, but what kept happening is he wouldn't run or do anything...just stay close to us. We had bought a couple of chuck-its before we got him, excited to tire him out that way. Unbeknownst to us - he has absolutely no interest in balls (or frisbees) of any kind.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, I had to go back and read.
> 
> I'll be honest: I have two retired show dogs, that came from a really good breeder. She had a pretty good idea of their personality and behavior in a lot of ways - but a lot gets lost. I'm not blaming you for this, or the breeder, but the fact of the matter is: A breeder is showing a bunch of dogs, raising puppies, and often putting working titles on dogs. The environment the dog is in, is very different, and quite often so is the interaction with the breeder. And this is me, talking about my breeder, who DID have the dogs in her house as pets. That she could tell you he didn't have enough herding drive but doesn't seem to have a clear idea on how energetic he was doesn't surprise me. She would have tested him for working ability, but after that.... Well, how would she know? He wasn't living in her house.
> 
> ...


Thanks CptJack - I totally understand what you are saying. I can see how the breeder might not know. After seeing Wilson in action, our behaviorist is a little concerned that Wilson wasn't properly socialized with people as a puppy. So, we're not sure where to go with that. 

My husband and I are sad because we have both owned dogs before (I used to show a CKCS in conformation) so we know what it takes to raise a dog properly and have never had any issues like this before. Granted - the dogs we owned prior were not extremely high energy herding dogs. Given that we were honest from the beginning about how much exercise we could give him on a daily basis - that hasn't changed. And if he needs a lot more than what we can provide, then that leads me back to think that we should return him and let the breeder know what type of home Wilson should go to. There is a definite sense of us having "failed" this dog, though.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Have you checked out any dog sports groups? Sounds like a dog in need of a job vs just walking. I also have found that sports folk tend to have people well versed in high energy and drive herding breeds so might be able to point you in a better direction.

Have you tried a flirt pole with him?

Structured classes? 

Is there any way to up the exercise he gets on weekends? I work full time and a condensed schedule and it sucks sometimes. I get home and Mia is throwing tennis balls at my face 24/7. Weekends and my days off are generally 'dog time'. So we do a LOT and I have them out as much as possible, taking them everywhere.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I agree with the "dog needs more exercise."

The (fabulous) thing is- exercise can be mental or physical- he needs some of both.

I skimmed through your post but did not read 100% so ignore any of these ideas that you are already using. I work at the SPCA and we use a lot of these things for our high energy "needy" dogs that go stir crazy in a shelter/pent up environment.


Mental exercise: 

Food toys- rotate them, use different ones each day, and use a combination of them for every meal (the meal split into 2-3 portions and distributed amongst multiple toys): buster cube, kong, tug a jug, regular milk cartons or peanut butter jars, squirrel dude, ect. Looks like you are doing this already but make sure you do it for every meal.

Frozen kongs with wet dog food- freezes "harder" than peanut butter and harder to get out

Rotate toys out- dont keep them all out, change them out every week so there's something new.

Puppy pushups- work on sit, down, up, stay at a FAST pace, over and over again (not necessarily that sequence) for 10 minutes and treat/ click for fast responses.

Actual excercise- running with a bike, playing fetch, hiding treats in the grass, running in a school baseball or soccer field, swimming. He will learn to do these things with a long leash on.

Honestly, he should be getting a minimum of 90 minutes of EXERCISE a day- not just walks, but something more tiring.

A tired dog is a good dog.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Have you checked out any dog sports groups? Sounds like a dog in need of a job vs just walking. I also have found that sports folk tend to have people well versed in high energy and drive herding breeds so might be able to point you in a better direction.
> 
> Have you tried a flirt pole with him?
> 
> ...


Hi Laurelin - we are in agility classes currently (which Wilson LOOOOVES...of course!) We have an agility jump that we use at home. My husband was also going to make some weave poles for him to practice on at home. There is an agility practice field a few miles away from us - cost is $5 per session (or $20/month for unlimited sessions). We have gone there once so far and it was pretty awesome. We also just took a couple of Treibball classes - they seemed pretty fun.

My concern with the flirt pole (which I would love to do with him) is that he is not strong enough on drop it/leave it commands and impulse control (yet). That is definitely one of the ongoing challenge areas we have. Actually that is where my worst bite came from - we were playing a game of fetch with a squeaky toy. He didn't go and get it, so I ran over to get it and he bit my arm as I was reaching for the toy. Major ouch!!

The agility instructor wondered if we had tried tug-of-war games with him - but those make me nervous because I'm afraid they will "enhance" his dominance. I understand "how" to play tug-of-war...it's just getting Wilson to understand as well. 

On the weekends our first thought is: "where shall we take Wilson today?" It used to be to various dog parks, but now we are leery of them. We try and be out with him for several hours on Saturday and Sunday. The car rides are no picnic, though, and sometimes we dread going out in the first place. It's kind of a double-edged sword. (sigh)


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

fiveninegal said:


> Hi Laurelin - we are in agility classes currently (which Wilson LOOOOVES...of course!) We have an agility jump that we use at home. My husband was also going to make some weave poles for him to practice on at home. There is an agility practice field a few miles away from us - cost is $5 per session (or $20/month for unlimited sessions). We have gone there once so far and it was pretty awesome. We also just took a couple of Treibball classes - they seemed pretty fun.
> 
> My concern with the flirt pole (which I would love to do with him) is that he is not strong enough on drop it/leave it commands and impulse control (yet). That is definitely one of the ongoing challenge areas we have. Actually that is where my worst bite came from - we were playing a game of fetch with a squeaky toy. He didn't go and get it, so I ran over to get it and he bit my arm as I was reaching for the toy. Major ouch!!
> 
> ...


Tug of War is a great impluse control teacher. Can I ask how you "understand how to play tug"? Also dominance between people and dogs is not a thing, so don't worry about it.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> Tug of War is a great impluse control teacher. Can I ask how you "understand how to play tug"? Also dominance between people and dogs is not a thing, so don't worry about it.


Hi Cattledogfanatic! How I understand it: game starts when WE say it starts - once dog is sitting ("take it!")...let the dog tug (we don't necessarily have to even tug back)...dog must release when we say so ("drop it!").


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I think he needs a lot more exercise too. JohnnyBandit might chime in here too, he has lots of experience with Cattle Dogs. The treadmill is a good start but its only 20 minutes (and he's not even running). I wonder if you could teach him a retrieve, if he's strongly food motivated you could use the clicker to teach the basic behaviour, then work up very slowly to using a chuckit. He has little ball drive but I suspect he'll find the activity of running quite rewarding and might really get into it once he understands the process.

Biking with him is a good idea too, as is jogging (although thats lower pace). Maybe get him fitted for a backpack to up the level of exertion for your regular walks. It could be a great opportunity for you two to get in great shape!


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

Yes, to some extent. It is ok to let the dog win at times. How much would you enjoy playing a game you never won? I think it's a great way to teach impulse control. Is your dog food motivated? Play tug. When your done throw a piece of food away from you and the game. When the dog goes to look for the food put the tug toy away. You can use another toy for the same purpose. It's also a great way to teach drop it. Good Luck! 

ETA. If the dog puts teeth on skin, game over. He'll learn real fast where your hands are.


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## Faux (Aug 5, 2013)

My female cattle dog went through a phase where she was a super huge butt head. She had always gotten along with other dogs whether she liked them or not, and she was out there starting fights. She didn't listen to me anymore, and picked up some nasty habits. This only lasted 2-4 weeks though. I know how tireless they can be! Luckilly she usually gets to go to both jobs with me, so she's constantly stimulated, and usually tired. She goes to daycare 5 days a week with me...and jeez, when she comes home she doesn't hardly budge. Too tired to get into trouble.

I would maybe consider doing a dog daycare once a week or a couple times a week if you have one around since it seems like you don't have a lot of time during the day to spend with him. I wouldn't take him -too- often since a lot of dogs can turn into jerks if they go too much. My girl will get crabby every so often.

It sounds like he used to be okay around other dogs, and maybe being at a place without you guys will help him cooperate with others. It also helps that it'll be an unfamiliar environment. 

It's something to think about...it can get expensive, but I think it's worth it to have a tired happy dog.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

Faux said:


> My female cattle dog went through a phase where she was a super huge butt head. She had always gotten along with other dogs whether she liked them or not, and she was out there starting fights. She didn't listen to me anymore, and picked up some nasty habits. This only lasted 2-4 weeks though. I know how tireless they can be! Luckilly she usually gets to go to both jobs with me, so she's constantly stimulated, and usually tired. She goes to daycare 5 days a week with me...and jeez, when she comes home she doesn't hardly budge. Too tired to get into trouble.
> 
> I would maybe consider doing a dog daycare once a week or a couple times a week if you have one around since it seems like you don't have a lot of time during the day to spend with him. I wouldn't take him -too- often since a lot of dogs can turn into jerks if they go too much. My girl will get crabby every so often.
> 
> ...



Daycare would not be a good idea if the dog is attacking other dogs.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

I've been bitten by an ACD, so I know how much it hurts. I can totally understand why you're scared of this dog, and no it's not going to do you any favors. What kind of dogs did you have before? ACDs are intense working dogs that need a job to do. Reading what I have read I don't think you have enough time to dedicate to this dog.

I'm alarmed at how many people are overlooking that this dog is BITING people and attacking other dogs unprovoked. You can't bring a dog like that to most classes, it's dangerous. That needs to be brought under control by private training and then you can look at getting into a dog sport or something.

It could be that your dog was always like this, and it took him about a month to adjust to his new home and show his true personality. Now that he is comfortable he is taking over as supreme leader since you're scared of him. That nipping/mouthing apparently never got under control because you're saying now that your dog is biting you without provocation. You've been bitten IN THE FACE. I don't need to tell you this is dangerous ground to be on. Personally I would muzzle a dog like that until the matter was solved. That will give you some safety and peace of mind.

Your situation sounds similar to what happened to one of my dog sport friends who wanted a Belgian malanois for dog sports, including the substantially more serious french ring sport. In the end the dog's drive and instincts were not what she expected and she kept on getting bit when he was riled up. I remember her trying to do flyball, and the dog would consistently go for her hand instead of the tug toy. She had to wear thick leather gloves but it didn't matter - it hurt! She would cry it hurt so bad. This is a person who literally spends all day with her dogs (her career is dog related) and does some kind of intense exercise and training every day. She ended up re-homing the dog after much consideration.

I'm not trying to be mean -- I would hate to hear that your dog bites someone and you get sued and have to put him down.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

aiw said:


> I think he needs a lot more exercise too. JohnnyBandit might chime in here too, he has lots of experience with Cattle Dogs. The treadmill is a good start but its only 20 minutes (and he's not even running). I wonder if you could teach him a retrieve, if he's strongly food motivated you could use the clicker to teach the basic behaviour, then work up very slowly to using a chuckit. He has little ball drive but I suspect he'll find the activity of running quite rewarding and might really get into it once he understands the process.
> 
> Biking with him is a good idea too, as is jogging (although thats lower pace). Maybe get him fitted for a backpack to up the level of exertion for your regular walks. It could be a great opportunity for you two to get in great shape!


Thanks aiw! Yes, he is HIGHLY food motivated - which has been a blessing in his training so far. We are clicker training him, too, which does speed up his already quick learning curve. We have thought of biking with him (and we do have a backpack that we use on him during walks) - our concern with that is his strong chase drive. If he is running with us using one of those bike attachments and he sees a cat or something - we are so afraid that he will go after it and take us down with him. Same with cars. But, possibly, that wouldn't be an issue because his brain will be in "moving forward" motion...? Hard to say...


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> Daycare would not be a good idea if the dog is attacking other dogs.


(also in response to Faux) We had previously considered doggy daycare - but since he started being aggressive toward other dogs - that is not a consideration for us at this time. It always sounds so great, though! (bummed)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I will add that you don't need perfect impulse control to play with a flirt pole or play tug. My dog does not have a solid "drop" yet, but we play anyway. He does have a good "wait" and "take it" so we practice those. To get him to drop, I either pull out another toy, pull out a piece of food, or just stop playing until he lets go. So I wouldn't worry about waiting to start these activities until he is "perfect" or anything. The flirt pole was a life saver for my friends with a young energetic ACD mix. And as cattledogfanatic mentioned, you should let the dog win sometimes. Just like us, they get bored with games that they can never win.

ETA: It's really hard to tell why he is biting you based on your descriptions. It could be some resource guarding, which is something that can be trained away. A lot of it just sounds like excitement and inappropriate mouthing/nipping. Not that it makes things much better if he is breaking skin, but it is easier to fix than a dog who bites out of fear.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> ETA: It's really hard to tell why he is biting you based on your descriptions. It could be some resource guarding, which is something that can be trained away. A lot of it just sounds like excitement and inappropriate mouthing/nipping. Not that it makes things much better if he is breaking skin, but it is easier to fix than a dog who bites out of fear.


Yea that is my suspicion as well based on the incident reaching for the toy.

I think a flirt pole is a great idea. Even if his drop/leave it isn't that great yet, you can somewhat compensate for that by having TWO flirt poles or tug toys and if he won't let go of one, fling the other one across the yard and when he goes for it, collect the other. Also there is a way to rig up a tug toy on a spring from a sturdy tree or branch so the dog can jump, tug, and exercise himself. I think it's called a spring pole? You should be able to find instructions with an internet search.

He's young and a breed with a strong personality as well as the energy and physical/mental exercise needs. I think it is doable for you if you can find a way to channel his physical and mental energy. But ultimately if you end up returning this dog to the breeder, I don't think you failed him. You were completely honest with the breeder and you've put more into trying to help this dog fit into your lives than the vast majority of dog owners would. At the end of the day he may simply not be a good fit for your family, there's no shame in admitting that after everything you've tried so far.


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## Faux (Aug 5, 2013)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> Daycare would not be a good idea if the dog is attacking other dogs.


Agreed, but it sounds like the dog has gotten along with other dogs in the past...so in an unfamiliar setting he may do okay. Of course he may not...but you don't know that unless you try. 

Working at a daycare I run into a lot of dogs that do fine at daycare, but don't always do well elsewhere according to the owners.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Faux said:


> Agreed, but it sounds like the dog has gotten along with other dogs in the past...so in an unfamiliar setting he may do okay. Of course he may not...but you don't know that unless you try.
> 
> Working at a daycare I run into a lot of dogs that do fine at daycare, but don't always do well elsewhere according to the owners.


This is why I would never do daycare. Too much roulette.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I will add that you don't need perfect impulse control to play with a flirt pole or play tug. My dog does not have a solid "drop" yet, but we play anyway. He does have a good "wait" and "take it" so we practice those. To get him to drop, I either pull out another toy, pull out a piece of food, or just stop playing until he lets go. So I wouldn't worry about waiting to start these activities until he is "perfect" or anything. The flirt pole was a life saver for my friends with a young energetic ACD mix. And as cattledogfanatic mentioned, you should let the dog win sometimes. Just like us, they get bored with games that they can never win.
> 
> ETA: It's really hard to tell why he is biting you based on your descriptions. It could be some resource guarding, which is something that can be trained away. A lot of it just sounds like excitement and inappropriate mouthing/nipping. Not that it makes things much better if he is breaking skin, but it is easier to fix than a dog who bites out of fear.


These are all great suggestions - we will start working more on tug/fetch and his drop it/impulse control. One of the challenges is definitely those teeth of his. He gets so riled up so quickly that he just starts grabbing at the toys...and if your hands or other limbs are in the way - too bad. (ugh)

These are the instances where I have been bit:
1) He was in his kennel one night and I reached in to say good-night and he snapped at my face (bruise on the forehead). My husband and I had both previously reached in his kennel prior to this with no problems.
2) I was telling him to sit (a command he knows well) and he wasn't doing it. I reached down (yes, I was frustrated) to physically put him in a sit (scooping hands under his butt) and he snapped at my face (bruise on my jaw).
3) We were playing fetch and when he didn't go for the toy, I ran over to get it....he was running with me and bit my arm (VERY HARD) as I was bending down to pick up the toy.
4) I was petting him (gently...around the ears) and he quickly nipped at my arm.

Both my husband and I are nipped at/mouthed by Wilson on a daily basis. When we try to play with him or just want to sit with him quietly on the floor. He has no bite inhibitions. We have been trying everything we know of - putting a toy/antler/bone in his mouth instead...he still goes for our hands/arms; saying "no bite"; stop touching him and fold our arms; get up and walk away; time outs; etc... He is not getting much better after 5 almost 6 months. It is quite frustrating. We are doing our best to stay absolutely calm in these situations. If we feel we are getting upset we just get up and walk away. And then he barks at us. :|


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

sassafras said:


> He's young and a breed with a strong personality as well as the energy and physical/mental exercise needs. I think it is doable for you if you can find a way to channel his physical and mental energy. But ultimately if you end up returning this dog to the breeder, I don't think you failed him. You were completely honest with the breeder and you've put more into trying to help this dog fit into your lives than the vast majority of dog owners would. At the end of the day he may simply not be a good fit for your family, there's no shame in admitting that after everything you've tried so far.


Thank you for that, sassafras. We really are trying to be responsible and give Wilson everything he needs to be happy. My husband and I have never had to or even thought of returning a dog before so this is very new territory for us. There, obviously, is no guarantee with any dog - but we just wonder how long it will take to see improvements? Not that we are just looking for a "quick fix" (which there aren't any) - it's hard to articulate here. Everything we are going through isn't what we imagined when we discussed adding a dog to our family (it's just the 2 of us...and the kitty). We are hard working, determined, loving people. But Wilson is pushing us wayyyyy to our limits!!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am with Sass. Nice dog, nice people, bad match. Likely, you will all be happier if you chose re-homing. Not all dogs fit into all situations. This just sounds like a bad match.

Don't feel bad. Get him into a safe place and move on. He sounds like too much dog for your lifestyle. He would probably be too much dog for most lifestyles. There is someone out there who will love him for his toughness.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

fiveninegal said:


> Thank you for that, sassafras. We really are trying to be responsible and give Wilson everything he needs to be happy. My husband and I have never had to or even thought of returning a dog before so this is very new territory for us. There, obviously, is no guarantee with any dog - but we just wonder how long it will take to see improvements? Not that we are just looking for a "quick fix" (which there aren't any) - it's hard to articulate here. Everything we are going through isn't what we imagined when we discussed adding a dog to our family (it's just the 2 of us...and the kitty). We are hard working, determined, loving people. But Wilson is pushing us wayyyyy to our limits!!


Also know, that if you did everything you could, and decide to return the dog because it's not a good fit, you didn't fail the dog. It'd be worse to keep a dog that doesn't fit into your home.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> Also know, that if you did everything you could, and decide to return the dog because it's not a good fit, you didn't fail the dog. It'd be worse to keep a dog that doesn't fit into your home.


Yep, especially in this scenario. You aren't sending the dog back to a bad home, to a shelter, or even leaving another dog stuck in a shelter if he goes back (which could be the case with a dog from a rescue group). It's going back to the person who bred him, who will be able to get him put into a home that fits. That's part of their responsibility, and it's okay.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Indigo said:


> I've been bitten by an ACD, so I know how much it hurts. I can totally understand why you're scared of this dog, and no it's not going to do you any favors. What kind of dogs did you have before? ACDs are intense working dogs that need a job to do. Reading what I have read I don't think you have enough time to dedicate to this dog.
> 
> I'm alarmed at how many people are overlooking that this dog is BITING people and attacking other dogs unprovoked. You can't bring a dog like that to most classes, it's dangerous. That needs to be brought under control by private training and then you can look at getting into a dog sport or something.
> 
> ...


Hi Indigo - I didn't take what you said as mean at all. I appreciate so much everyone's input and honesty here. My husband and I are realists - but still determined...! My gut feeling is that we truly DON'T have enough time for this dog...but we also feel like we need to keep trying. It is a tough decision for us. 

Previously, we have owned (not all at the same time!) a black lab mix, a chocolate lab, and 2 cavalier king charles spaniels (different years). Yes - TOTALLY different breeds than an ACD!
When we started doing research, we said we wanted: a dog that we could do agility with, that was highly trainable, affectionate, would alert us to strangers (but we didn't want the dog to scare our guests!), a dog we could dedicate about an hour of exercise to daily, a dog that could go on hikes with us, go on road trips; wasn't high maintenance grooming (CKCS = MUCH grooming!!), didn't shed a ton, and was medium sized. Seriously, the ACD kept coming up in everything we researched. So then we specifically started researching ACD's and it seemed like it was doable for us. We looked at 4 month old puppy and the 2.5 yo ACD - after much consideration, we decided to go with the older dog because a puppy would be too energetic for us (plus we aren't home all day). (shakes head...LOL)


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> I am with Sass. Nice dog, nice people, bad match. Likely, you will all be happier if you chose re-homing. Not all dogs fit into all situations. This just sounds like a bad match.


I agree.

We brought home a rescue last summer - a second Great Dane. She came with a load of baggage that we weren't ready to handle. We tried for 6 months and finally came to the decision that we just weren't the right family for her. It happens (and yes, it hurts and yes, it feels like you've still failed on some level - I get it).


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Loki Love said:


> I agree.
> 
> We brought home a rescue last summer - a second Great Dane. She came with a load of baggage that we weren't ready to handle. We tried for 6 months and finally came to the decision that we just weren't the right family for her. It happens (and yes, it hurts and yes, it feels like you've still failed on some level - I get it).


I love Great Dane's! So sorry that she didn't work out for you


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yep, especially in this scenario. You aren't sending the dog back to a bad home, to a shelter, or even leaving another dog stuck in a shelter if he goes back (which could be the case with a dog from a rescue group). It's going back to the person who bred him, who will be able to get him put into a home that fits. That's part of their responsibility, and it's okay.


Yeah, it's in our signed contract that no matter how long we have him - if we ever need to give him up, he is to be returned to them (breeder). So, that is good.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> I am with Sass. Nice dog, nice people, bad match. Likely, you will all be happier if you chose re-homing. Not all dogs fit into all situations. This just sounds like a bad match.
> 
> Don't feel bad. Get him into a safe place and move on. He sounds like too much dog for your lifestyle. He would probably be too much dog for most lifestyles. There is someone out there who will love him for his toughness.


Thank you, trainingjunkie.  He is a nice dog - I would never tell anyone otherwise. I love seeing how happy he is doing agility. If we do return him, we are going to strongly suggest that the breeder find someone who has lots of land for him (out of the city - as high traffic areas are overwhelming for him), is home more often than not, and wants to continue agility with him.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

fiveninegal said:


> Thank you, trainingjunkie.  He is a nice dog - I would never tell anyone otherwise. I love seeing how happy he is doing agility. If we do return him, we are going to strongly suggest that the breeder find someone who has lots of land for him (out of the city - as high traffic areas are overwhelming for him), is home more often than not, and wants to continue agility with him.


If you feel you need to return him now, that is understandable. It sounds like you were upfront with the breeder about what you could handle and she just matched you over your head a bit (no ill will involved - people and dogs are fallible). IMO it would be worthwhile to up your game for a few weeks/months just to get him back to stable and balanced if you could. It will look *a lot* better on him and make the job of finding a new home easier. Plus, you'll know exactly what he needs to be happy - even if you're not the home to give that to him long term. 

Could be good for both you and him - but if you feel you're not equipped no one could fault you for sending him back to the breeder.

EDIT: I think a springpole could be *awesome* for him. Easy to get some frustration out, a full body intense workout that doesnt require a lot of space and a good outlet for his nippy/biting behaviour.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Personally, I think there is something deeper going on than just the dog needs more exercise. She could exercise the dog into the ground and I think he will still growl and use his teeth on her when she does something he doesn't deem appropriate behavior from her. 

Get this book - Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier and read it....twice. She discusses living with dogs like yours and how dog owners can build a relationship of mutual respect between dog and owner. I'm almost done reading it myself...and I will turn around and read it again. I have two high drive, very confident Rottweilers from working lines even though I manage them well, this book was an eye opener on how I could do better by them. I am implementing changes in how I interact with them and I am starting to see results. Seriously....get the book, read it, and use it. He is not a CKCS and you cannot expect to have that sort of relationship with him. I think the biting your dog is doing is getting down played here...you are scared of your dog, and your dog knows it.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> Personally, I think there is something deeper going on than just the dog needs more exercise. She could exercise the dog into the ground and I think he will still growl and use his teeth on her when she does something he doesn't deem appropriate behavior from her.
> 
> Get this book - Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier and read it....twice. She discusses living with dogs like yours and how dog owners can build a relationship of mutual respect between dog and owner. I'm almost done reading it myself...and I will turn around and read it again. I have two high drive, very confident Rottweilers from working lines even though I manage them well, this book was an eye opener on how I could do better by them. I am implementing changes in how I interact with them and I am starting to see results. Seriously....get the book, read it, and use it. He is not a CKCS and you cannot expect to have that sort of relationship with him. I think the biting your dog is doing is getting down played here...you are scared of your dog, and your dog knows it.


Thanks so much, MrsBoats - I just ordered the book to my kindle.  Can't wait to read it. Even if we decide not to keep Wilson, I think the information will be helpful for any future dog we will own. I really appreciate the recommendation.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MrsBoats said:


> Personally, I think there is something deeper going on than just the dog needs more exercise. She could exercise the dog into the ground and I think he will still growl and use his teeth on her when she does something he doesn't deem appropriate behavior from her.
> 
> Get this book - Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier and read it....twice. She discusses living with dogs like yours and how dog owners can build a relationship of mutual respect between dog and owner. I'm almost done reading it myself...and I will turn around and read it again. I have two high drive, very confident Rottweilers from working lines even though I manage them well, this book was an eye opener on how I could do better by them. I am implementing changes in how I interact with them and I am starting to see results. Seriously....get the book, read it, and use it. He is not a CKCS and you cannot expect to have that sort of relationship with him. I think the biting your dog is doing is getting down played here...you are scared of your dog, and your dog knows it.


I agree there's likely something deeper going on. 1 hour a day plus sports plus weekend trips is quite a lot of exercise. 

I need to pick up that book, it sounds good.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I agree there's likely something deeper going on. 1 hour a day plus sports plus weekend trips is quite a lot of exercise.
> 
> I need to pick up that book, it sounds good.


Laurelin - your doggies are adorable. Papillons, yes? Love them!


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

It is good & you should get it. 

There was a sentence half way through that book that was like a religious experience for me. It was like OMG...some things i had been wrestling with in the performance ring - it all makes sense to me now. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> There was a sentence half way through that book that was like a religious experience for me. It was like OMG...some things i had been wrestling with in the performance ring - it all makes sense to me now.


Can I ask what it was? I read the book a month or two ago and while I thought it was good, I didn't have any real epiphanies from it. Maybe I read too fast and missed some things!


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## successjustclicks (Jun 7, 2013)

I read your first main post and has skimmed through the rest so perhaps I missed it. But you mention brining BACK a behaviorist. Did your initial consult with the behaviorist suggest a full veterinarian work up? Full blood panel and Thyroid sent off to Dr. Dodds? What type of diet is he on? 

While more exercise, a focus on teaching impulse control, some resource guarding work (this may be the cause of the bite to your arm while reaching for the toy), getting into a sport, and more work on teaching him to relax are all great ideas and suggestions, there are medical things that could cause some of the behaviors you've seen that it may be worth ruling out first. 

If all medical causes are ruled out, there is some credible (though still in its infancy) research looking at protein level in food and levels of aggression (for dogs already with issues). A change in diet may be something to try.

Also really working with the behaviorist to identify his triggers and start working on them one by one will be important. You know impulse control is an issue, start working on that--this will allow you to use things like flirt poles to exercise him, work on being kind to kitties, work on dog reactivity, work on car chasing, etc.

But first and foremost, in my thought, would be a full vet work up and sending thyroid out to Dr. Dodds.


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## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm really surprised it too so long for someone to mention the potential for health problems being the root of some of this behaviour. Your dog was neutered recently ( in the last 6 months?) this is huge shift in hormones, and any underlying thyroid imbalance could be enhanced.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

squiggles said:


> I'm really surprised it too so long for someone to mention the potential for health problems being the root of some of this behaviour. Your dog was neutered recently ( in the last 6 months?) this is huge shift in hormones, and any underlying thyroid imbalance could be enhanced.


Hi squiggles - he was neutered July 2012 when he lived with the other family in Colorado.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I have not read everything, but can tell you 100% for sure that this dog is not getting sufficient exercise. 
Think about it... he's a cattle dog, cattle dogs spend their time in fields herding cattle. Outside. All day. Running, jumping, nipping.
Using a treadmill to exercise him is not enough. Taking him for an hour long walk each evening is not enough. Could you not muzzle him and take him to a dog park just to run? I mean really RUN.. for more then 30 minutes. Let the boy run himself into the ground. The muzzle will keep him from biting the other dogs and will help him with some socialisation. You can work on his tricks and training in the dog park as well. Do his relaxation techniques in the dog park, reward him for calmly sniffing other dogs, reward him for playing. He sounds like he needs to be completely reconditioned. 

In your first post you mentioned you wanted to get him into agility. Start that! It's great exercise. I think that once you address the exercise needs of your dog he will become calmer. My Moms got 2 cattle dogs and they are NUTS. 2 years old and only just beginning to calm down - because they are bred to go-go-go. 

I would also suggest taking him to a vet for a full physical just to make sure there are no underlying medical issues.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

BostonBullMama said:


> In your first post you mentioned you wanted to get him into agility. Start that! It's great exercise. I think that once you address the exercise needs of your dog he will become calmer. My Moms got 2 cattle dogs and they are NUTS. 2 years old and only just beginning to calm down - because they are bred to go-go-go.


We have already started agility - and he loves it. 

So your mom's cattle dogs are sufficiently exercised everyday and they're still "nuts"? :behindsofa:


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

fiveninegal said:


> We have already started agility - and he loves it.
> 
> *So your mom's cattle dogs are sufficiently exercised everyday and they're still "nuts"?* :behindsofa:


Nope. She doesn't walk them and uses her backyard to run them but brings them in as soon as they bark. The only reason she got 2 is because when her female was a bundle of energy she thought getting her a friend would give her someone to play with, instead it gave her twice the work. They *might* get walked once a day and as a result have eaten her carpet on the stairs forcing her to put down hardwood flooring through out the house. They've chewed holes in the drywall. They've eaten an Xbox and various games. They've caused more then $5000 in damage to the household. The one got hold of one of the cats and shook her so now her house is divided up into the "dogs side" and the "cats side". They bark, they jump up on you, and they're horribly overweight (supposed to be 40lbs, but are actually about 70lbs), and they're not very well trained (ie: will only follow commands if you have food).

So without sufficient exercise, they are only JUST calming down. Could you imagine how good they would be if they WERE exercised enough? They have the potential to be AMAZING dogs.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

BostonBullMama said:


> Nope. She doesn't walk them and uses her backyard to run them but brings them in as soon as they bark. The only reason she got 2 is because when her female was a bundle of energy she thought getting her a friend would give her someone to play with, instead it gave her twice the work. They *might* get walked once a day and as a result have eaten her carpet on the stairs forcing her to put down hardwood flooring through out the house. They've chewed holes in the drywall. They've eaten an Xbox and various games. They've caused more then $5000 in damage to the household. The one got hold of one of the cats and shook her so now her house is divided up into the "dogs side" and the "cats side". They bark, they jump up on you, and they're horribly overweight (supposed to be 40lbs, but are actually about 70lbs), and they're not very well trained (ie: will only follow commands if you have food).
> 
> So without sufficient exercise, they are only JUST calming down. Could you imagine how good they would be if they WERE exercised enough? They have the potential to be AMAZING dogs.


Wow - your post makes my situation seem so much better! LOL Wilson has never destroyed anything of ours, doesn't chew on carpet, furniture, clothes, walls, or anything else of ours (well, except our LIMBS). He is happy to chew on his antlers and squeaky toys. At 40 lbs, Wilson was on the thin side so he is at 45 lbs now. He is very well trained (especially using the clicker method). 

I wish your mom luck and I hope she, too, can figure out what is best for her dogs.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

fiveninegal said:


> Wow - your post makes my situation seem so much better! LOL Wilson has never destroyed anything of ours, doesn't chew on carpet, furniture, clothes, walls, or anything else of ours (well, except our LIMBS). He is happy to chew on his antlers and squeaky toys. At 40 lbs, Wilson was on the thin side so he is at 45 lbs now. He is very well trained (especially using the clicker method).
> 
> I wish your mom luck and I hope she, too, can figure out what is best for her dogs.


 Just letting you know that you have a great dog on your hands and with proper exercise he will excel and make you really proud to have him.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Can I ask what it was? I read the book a month or two ago and while I thought it was good, I didn't have any real epiphanies from it. Maybe I read too fast and missed some things!


I'm going to preface the revelation with this excerpt of the book:



> Second, in times of excitement, importance, or conflict, does your dog yield to your direction of his behavior? It doesn't matter how beautifully trained your dog may be when all is quiet or calm; it does matter how your dog responds to you out on the street, at the vet's office, when the doorbell rings or guests come and go, when a cat dashes past or another dog passes, etc. If you answer no or "only sometimes" to either or both of these questions, then those are areas that your dog's behavior is pointing to as problems that need to be worked out. Resolution needs to occur at the foundation, at the primary level of leadership and respect.


Here's my OMG sentence:



> It is quite possible to have a dog that is highly trained and obeys a multitude of commands and even wins countless awards and ribbons but still has no real respect for you.


and I'll close this hijack post with these excerpts (and when she says dominant...it's not like Caesar's definition of dominant...you have to read the book to get what I mean):



> If a conflict arises, will the dog respond in a confident, assertive way or will he typically yield? Generally speaking, a more dominant animal has great self confidence and is willing to push for things to go the way he'd liked them to *if it's something he cares about.* When attempts are made to direct and control his behavior, the more dominant animal asks (rather persistently) "Why?" - and he expects a damn good answer. Lacking a satisfactory answer, his confidence is turned toward shaping the world to suit him





> The more important something is to the dog, the more important it may be that we have the dog's respect, that we have earned the right to control the dog's behavior or impulses. If something is important to the dog, he's going to be willing to push for it; it's easy to control anyone's behavior if they don't care about something.


Ever since I hit that chapter "Take me to your Leader"...I sat up and really slowed down the reading so I can digest it and get the wake up call I needed. You may have missed that because Watson probably isn't asking "why?" and expecting a "damn good answer" like my dog expects when he constantly asks me "why" in agility because that is enormously important to him.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I remember that chapter now - it was very interesting and not something I have really read before. No, my dog doesn't really ask why, it's more like "But I wanna! Just let me go! Please? No? Ok then. Fine." Not really any worse than a human toddler, which is basically his developmental stage anyway. He almost always avoids conflict if he can.

I do agree that dogs can be controlling, and can do things to get what they want. Biting is not always fear based, or even excitement based. The one ACD mix that I have experience with can be quite controlling of situations if he thinks he can get away with it. It is just in his nature to take charge and boss people or dogs around, though his owners have a pretty good handle on it now. I have no idea if that's what this dog is doing though. It does seem very strange to me that he came into the home with such good behavior, and now is so bad, considering that the OP seems to have done quite a bit with him (though maybe not quite as much exercise as he needs).


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I have no idea if that's what this dog is doing though. It does seem very strange to me that he came into the home with such good behavior, and now is so bad, considering that the OP seems to have done quite a bit with him (though maybe not quite as much exercise as he needs).


It is very strange to us, too! When he came to live with us - he had no house manners (having lived outside in a kennel for 2.5 years). From day one, we have been training him. The only command he knew was "stand" (from his conformation days). We have taught him sit, down, up, stay/wait, he knows to stay out of the kitchen when we are in there, he doesn't jump on any furniture, he doesn't destroy our furniture or any parts of our home, we built him an agility jump which he loves to do. We are consistent in our words and training. We use all the training wherever we are (so he didn't just think he had to do it in the house). When we tell him to sit/wait/down - that means anywhere we are.

He is extremely smart (which we love). Clicker training has only enhanced his quick learning style. 

Two things that I just remembered: when we first met Wilson at the breeder's house, I was petting him and when I got to his hind quarters, he did reach around and put his mouth on me. I do recall thinking at the time "hmmm...I don't like that!"

My husband had to go out of town for work in June. He was gone 2.5 weeks. Prior to him leaving, Wilson NEVER barked at us when we kissed/hugged. However, when husband returned, that is when the barking started. Not sure why. I don't think Wilson is trying to protect ME because as far as I can tell - he has bonded more with my husband. I understand that cattle dogs often get more attached to one person in the family - however, I don't think that should mean that he is mean to others in the household.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

fiveninegal said:


> My husband had to go out of town for work in June. He was gone 2.5 weeks. Prior to him leaving, Wilson NEVER barked at us when we kissed/hugged. However, when husband returned, that is when the barking started. Not sure why. I don't think Wilson is trying to protect ME because as far as I can tell - he has bonded more with my husband. I understand that cattle dogs often get more attached to one person in the family - however, I don't think that should mean that he is mean to others in the household.


That is super common behavior for some dogs. My dog will jump on us when we hug - not sure if he is trying to split us up or just get in on the snuggles. My friends' cattle dog mix will leap at them, nipping, when they hug. He has learned not to nip in just about every other scenario, but this one is very hard for him. I think it goes back to the herding dog desire to control movements of people and/or animals, moreso than protection. I would work on a go-to-mat command, then practice hugging your husband and rewarding him for staying on his mat. This should be a pretty easy behavior to train out.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> That is super common behavior for some dogs. My dog will jump on us when we hug - not sure if he is trying to split us up or just get in on the snuggles. My friends' cattle dog mix will leap at them, nipping, when they hug. He has learned not to nip in just about every other scenario, but this one is very hard for him. I think it goes back to the herding dog desire to control movements of people and/or animals, moreso than protection. I would work on a go-to-mat command, then practice hugging your husband and rewarding him for staying on his mat. This should be a pretty easy behavior to train out.


Glad (sort of? lol) to hear it's pretty common. During our relaxation protocol that definitely is one of the things we work on. Other times we are not sure if we are supposed to ignore the barking and reward when he has stopped...or if we should stop what we're doing and make him lie down. The latter feels like we are reinforcing "oh, if I bark at them, they stop what they're doing and pay attention to me". Ack!


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## Muppet (May 10, 2012)

Just wanted to mention that are special needs day care facilitates. I assume that this type of thing is only located in big cities, and I am not sure where you are in Washington. The one that I take my dog to trains and socializes. She always comes back exhausted and has become more comfortable with dogs. 

Also, my dog growing up would also freak out if you hugged. I think he was being protective, but who knows....


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

A lot of the behaviors you are describing could, at times, describe my dog. He is a Belgian Malinois/St. Bernard cross and is a handful, but an amazing dog.

If it were me, I'd focus on one issue at a time so that I wouldn't be so overwhelmed. In this case, it sounds like the biting is the biggest issue that is causing you to be afraid (which never helps!) and unsure you can handle him. Everyone else has given great advice so far. To me, this sounds like a dog that needs an outlet for a lot of energy as well as a desire to work. If I don't consistently work with my dog, training and exercising him each day and giving him something constructive to do, he starts to get like what you describe. When I do stay on top of him like a bug on a leaf, he calms down and is pretty easy to live with. It's like he gets all pent up inside and that pent up energy starts to leak out in ways I don't like unless I give him a purpose for that energy.

Like yours, my dog likes to bite. Learning to use that to my advantage has really changed my relationship with him and made that into a positive thing. You wouldn't think so, but just learning how to play tug safely and in a way that puts me back in charge is lifechanging. I can use a tug or ball on a string as a reward for good behavior and a training tool. I can take those toys away when he starts getting out of control or not behaving the way I want. Best of all, I'm not afraid of his mouth and I feel confident that I have more control over his bite than I did before. Michael Ellis has a really good 5 1/2 hour video (I'm not kidding!) on playing tug with your dog that you can find on leerburg's website or you can also google for tug instructions. I find the ones for Schutzhund are particularly useful in that they teach you how to play in a way that you're far less likely to be bitten as well as to encourage your dog to love playing and teach them how to out the toy.

For me, the biggest part of living with a dog like this is maintaining my own confidence in my ability to handle him. I get that through dog sports as well as using any challenges that come along as training opportunities. It's a LOT of work and if you aren't able to put in that kind of time and energy, it might be best for both of you to rehome the dog, but if you can, it CAN be done.  You may also want to try to get in contact with ACD groups or a herding group in your area or a Schutzhund club. All of these will give you a supportive environment with people who will be able to relate to what you are going through and give you advice based on their experiences with similar dogs.

Let us know how it goes!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I'm going to preface the revelation with this excerpt of the book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Based on this discussion, I just bought the kindle version of this book. I'm only in chapter 2, but OMG...is it ever good! Thanks!


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

This sounds similar to what I went thru with my dog, the biting part. I tried more exercise, more training, more socialization, classes and the problem got worse and worse. Here is what worked for us. And it goes against some of the suggestions you've been given so I feel like I'm going out on a limb here, but here goes!

STRESS REDUCTION
You could try LESS exercise. It took some time for us to find the right balance. Instead of 3-4 miles walking a day, we do an average of 2 miles 3 x week. However my dog also gets off leash time in the pasture 1/2 hour a day, where she runs around sniffing stuff. We are VERY gradually increasing our walking distance because I need more!

It helps if I'm aware that if my dog does have a reactivity to other dogs episode, it may take a day or 3 for her to get over it, stress hormones to clear from her bloodstream. So no walks, or very minimal.

MIND GAMES
Avoiding much excited play like flirt pole, etc. What works for us is games where she has to think and practice impulse control too. Like I throw a toy. She brings it back, we tug a bit, then she must drop it, sit, look away for a few seconds. Then I throw the toy again. Something like a 3 or 4 step process seems to make her think and she just loves it! It helps teach drop it too, you can trade a treat at first. Another one is Find It. I grab a toy, put her in a sit or down/stay, go hide the toy, come back to her and tell her find it and off she goes! Also kinda gentle toss the toy and retrieve in the house actually seems soothing to her, the repetition maybe? Trick training, very fun - we keep it short, fun and very casual. 

NIP IT IN THE BUD
I've learned her early warning signs of when she might start biting me. It happens to be a look in her eyes, especially the right one. This was confirmed for me by a recent foster dog; when she was getting too amped up in play he would lick around her eyes, especially the right one - strange, huh? Also she will start approaching me on the right side instead of the left! So when she starts with the evil eye, we start to ramp down. I'll redirect her with a couple "touch" or "sit" cues/treats. I learned this redirection from a behaviorist type trainer.

RELAXATION
My dog is not a huge petting fan but does enjoy a good belly rub. I can put her to sleep using T-touch massage (google it?) Once in a while I just treat her for being calm. I recently taught her a "relax" cue where she lies on her side with her head down. The mind follows what the body is doing.

This all may be less than helpful advice for you and Wilson, but if you want to keep him it might be worth a 2 week or so trial before you return or re-home. Good luck to you either way - I feel your pain!

Oh yeah, another turning point was after she was house trained and the first night sleeping in the same room.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Nice points Goodgirl. I especially appreciate your point about the level of exercise....sometimes less is better. I had forgotten about going through that with Caeda. She's the kind of dog that will not stop, ever if given the chance. The thing is when she has had too much exercise or activity she seems to get peevish and moody like a tired toddler. Thanks for reminding me of that....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

He sounds like a typical cattle dog that isn't getting enough exercise & doesn't have a job. I have a female who will get fighty with other dogs (females only) when she is not played with enough.

I don't know if this will work or not since he isn't getting his "ya ya's" out ... But here is some advice:

If you have a suitable tree, install a flirt pole (google it) that way he can get his frustration out on something that isn't living lol.

When you are playing with him ... The MOMENT his mouth TOUCHES: skin, clothing the game you are playing STOPS, you take you & go inside or away from him for a couple of minutes, no matter what he does (he's going to throw you punches because he knows you are scared of him). 

I am going to be frank here: I don't know why this breeder would adopt out an ACD, esp a high drive one to someone who works all day & has no yard & is a first time cattle dog owner :/. If you can't make this work then he should go back to the breeder ... Or go to someone like me


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

aiw said:


> If you feel you need to return him now, that is understandable. It sounds like you were upfront with the breeder about what you could handle and she just matched you over your head a bit (no ill will involved - people and dogs are fallible). IMO it would be worthwhile to up your game for a few weeks/months just to get him back to stable and balanced if you could. It will look *a lot* better on him and make the job of finding a new home easier. Plus, you'll know exactly what he needs to be happy - even if you're not the home to give that to him long term.
> 
> Could be good for both you and him - but if you feel you're not equipped no one could fault you for sending him back to the breeder.
> 
> EDIT: I think a springpole could be *awesome* for him. Easy to get some frustration out, a full body intense workout that doesnt require a lot of space and a good outlet for his nippy/biting behaviour.


Agreed, to the breeder he may not have been a "hard dog" per say (cattle dog people are a different breed lol the dog has to be pretty darn hard for us to call them hard) she may have given him lots of stimulation & a job & whatever. You didn't see his daily routine over there so there is no way to know what she did with him (something I would have asked).

Is does sound like a dog who would be good at bite sports


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## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I am going to be frank here: I don't know why this breeder would adopt out an ACD, esp a high drive one to someone who works all day & has no yard & is a first time cattle dog owner :/. If you can't make this work then he should go back to the breeder ... Or go to someone like me


As someone who works all day and has no yard, never had a cattle dog before my own, I disagree. The time I spend waking my dog around the block provides extremely valuable socialization to the very strange people in my area, and anyone who works full time can still make time to provide physical and metal stimulation fitting the needs of a cattle dog. Sure, it's harder, but my guy is my hobby, and a motivation to be active.

I bet the OP is perfectly capable of caring for this dog if she really wants to and puts her mind to it.
It is a bummer that the breeder understated the dog's drive and training, but it sounds like the breeder didn't have the dog it's whole life, and therefore may not have really know.

No one will fault the OP for returning the dog, because while she may be capable of handling this dog, it might involve sacrificing parts of her life that are non negotiables.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

squiggles said:


> As someone who works all day and has no yard, never had a cattle dog before my own, I disagree. The time I spend waking my dog around the block provides extremely valuable socialization to the very strange people in my area, and anyone who works full time can still make time to provide physical and metal stimulation fitting the needs of a cattle dog. Sure, it's harder, but my guy is my hobby, and a motivation to be active.
> 
> I bet the OP is perfectly capable of caring for this dog if she really wants to and puts her mind to it.
> It is a bummer that the breeder understated the dog's drive and training, but it sounds like the breeder didn't have the dog it's whole life, and therefore may not have really know.
> ...


IME your results are exceptional, not typical. Which is why most breeders around here won't sell pups or place dogs with first timers unless the situation is perfect or the dog is reeeeaaally good. Even the local rescue is hesitant to adopt out certain dogs to inexperienced owners.

Also, Buddy was very stoic for a long long time (almost a year) after we adopted him. He didn't play, it was very hard to even get him to offer behaviors & he exhibited NO herding tendencies.

Now he acts almost like a typical Cattledog 
@Mrs. Boats which book is that? I would be interested in reading it


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> IME your results are exceptional, not typical.


I fully agree.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

It's not that I am picking on you, squiggles, or the OP. I too have had both a cattle dog AND a jack russell terrier in an apt with no yard BUT I am experienced in both breeds & Izze (my ACD) had an outlet & a job (which is soooo important to these dogs because if they don't have one they will find one, something the OP has learned the hard way) ... I stabled my horses at the time & she as the unofficial barn mascot  she went tail riding with me & was my horses protector.

Buddy is what I would consider a "low drive" ACD, (though that may be due to age ... He's 7) & he still has to be on a leash around livestock because he will take off herding them :/, I also gave him the job of being my running buddy & guardian. 

Josefina doesn't have drive, she has energy but not drive, nothing a couple of hours of a chuck it or a frisbee can't take care of  ESP in this hot weather (though I wai til it's cooler to play).

I wish I was closer I would take this boy, it sounds like all his aggression problems stem from pent up energy. If you can't bike with him (due to reactivity or whatever) then maybe jogging with him with a doggy back pack (you could even try thid on the treadmill like ... before you leave for work in the morning) would make him tired quicker & would give him a "job". Though he will need time to get use to wearing it.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> If you can't bike with him (due to reactivity or whatever) then maybe jogging with him with a doggy back pack (you could even try thid on the treadmill like ... before you leave for work in the morning) would make him tired quicker & would give him a "job". Though he will need time to get use to wearing it.


We do have a backpack that he wears out on walks and, yes, while on the treadmill each morning before going to work. When we leave for the day, he is panting.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

Wow, for some reason I stopped getting notifications that people were responding to this thread. I had no idea there were so many new replies until just now. Thanks everyone 
As of today, we still have Wilson. We wanted to finish the final 2 weeks of agility that we paid for. 

The behaviorist (Robin) came back a couple of weeks ago. The 3 of us talked for 3 hours about the situation. After working with Wilson and watching us work with Wilson – the behaviorist (30+ yrs training/behaviorist experience and a PhD) believes that he wasn’t properly socialized with people or animals as a puppy. We also have no idea how he was treated during the time he lived with the Colorado family. We didn’t get him until 2.5 years old. Lots of variables going on here. 

Robin does not think Wilson is under-exercised or under-stimulated. She has told us that we are doing an amazing job with him – and that Wilson would be challenging for anyone. I asked her point blank if she thought he was the right dog for us and she said “no”. But, she thinks we *could* make it work (up to a point). 

My husband and I agree that he is not the right match for us – but we are also concerned for him going into another family that may not be the right fit…and how they might treat him. We just don’t want anything bad to happen to him.  But at the same time, we want a dog that fits our lifestyle and personalities. It’s a very difficult decision for us.

We are still taking it day by day.

MrsBoats - I am almost done with the book you recommended. AMAZING read. Thank you so much. I want to read it again (and again).


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## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

Hey, I definitely don't think you're picking on me! I suppose I just don't think of myself that way( exceptional) 
I suppose having my guy from puppyhood made its easier, knowing exactly what has gone on in his life, and perhaps the OP would have had better results with a puppy, maybe not.

I have to say, OP, Wilson is a very lucky dog to have such a great set of people. Cattle Dogs are tough individuals.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

squiggles said:


> Hey, I definitely don't think you're picking on me! I suppose I just don't think of myself that way( exceptional)
> I suppose having my guy from puppyhood made its easier, knowing exactly what has gone on in his life, and perhaps the OP would have had better results with a puppy, maybe not.
> 
> I have to say, OP, Wilson is a very lucky dog to have such a great set of people. Cattle Dogs are tough individuals.


I agree with this. Buddy came with a lot of baggage, I don't know what his background is but judging from how he is with men, leashes & just general handling. He IS a great dog despite all this & I can't help but think that if I had gotten him when he was 3 months old, what kind of awesome dog he could have been . But I can't do anything about that, what incsn so is make sure he has the best life possible til he crosses the bridge.

Josefina in many ways is "easier" in terms of handling because she from a young age was desensitized to handling, being restrained, leashes, collars, going places, riding in the car, being tethered to something etc ... BUT ... IF I had started them from puppies, no question that temperment wise buddy would have been the better dog.

Squiggles I see your results as "exceptional" because it takes a very dedicated owner to have a breed like this in that kind of living situation, & I just was trying to make it clear to "Joe Everyman" who might read this thread that those are NOT typical results lol.


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## fiveninegal (Aug 12, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> @Mrs. Boats which book is that? I would be interested in reading it


OwnedbyACDs - the book is called Bones Would Rain From the Sky by Suzanne Clothier. It is truly an excellent read. :clap2:


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

fiveninegal said:


> OwnedbyACDs - the book is called Bones Would Rain From the Sky by Suzanne Clothier. It is truly an excellent read. :clap2:


Thank you  I will definitely look for it, I have some down time coming up so it would be nice to have something to read


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