# question for people who read Mine! by Jean Donaldson



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

I posted this under another thread I did but I think I might get more responses here 

I am reading Mine! now and I find that she is using a lot of big words that really aren't necessary for her to use. I feel like I am reading a text book. It is kind of making for a really dry read. Why does she have to use attenuated? Why can't she just say weakened or reduced? I did a bunch of psych classes in university and I know what I am reading but I find it a slow read (just like a psych text ). I guess this book is written for a behaviourist/trainer and not the average dog owner. Either way, I am learning lots from it.

One question, though, for the people who have read it. I am not that far into it yet, but I did read that if you don't give the dog possession of what he is guarding totally, like when I feed Brom I hold the chicken leg, it says that his guarding will be attenuated. Does this mean he will only guard less while I am feeding him or eventually he will feel he needs to guard less even if I am not holding it? 

Also, she mentions a dog with "jealous" behaviour as guarding its owner. I am guessing what she means by jealous behaviour is growling and not letting someone else or something else close to the owner. Because we always joke that our dogs are jealous because they will come for cuddles if the other dog is getting cuddles. For example, if I am giving Iorek cuddles and attention Brom will run over and try to get in on the action and vice versa. This is not guarding behaviour, right?

Thanks for your help!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

> I am reading Mine! now and I find that she is using a lot of big words that really aren't necessary for her to use. I feel like I am reading a text book. It is kind of making for a really dry read. Why does she have to use attenuated? Why can't she just say weakened or reduced? I did a bunch of psych classes in university and I know what I am reading but I find it a slow read (just like a psych text ). I guess this book is written for a behaviourist/trainer and not the average dog owner. Either way, I am learning lots from it.


Yes, this book is written, as are many by behaviourists, in proper academic speak. I find it a bit offputting as well, but I'm sure she has her reasons. I'm reading a book by James O'heare on Separation anxiety that is the same way.



> One question, though, for the people who have read it. I am not that far into it yet, but I did read that if you don't give the dog possession of what he is guarding totally, like when I feed Brom I hold the chicken leg, it says that his guarding will be attenuated. Does this mean he will only guard less while I am feeding him or eventually he will feel he needs to guard less even if I am not holding it?


If the dog already has RG habits holding on to the food means he can have it while you are WORKING but that he cannot "possess" if fully..the idea being that eventually, when the protocol has been worked for a period of time it will be safer to let him have it....management is part of the package of the work being done, allowing him to possess the item means he has the opportunity to practice the guarding..which is not ideal.



> Also, she mentions a dog with "jealous" behaviour as guarding its owner. I am guessing what she means by jealous behaviour is growling and not letting someone else or something else close to the owner. Because we always joke that our dogs are jealous because they will come for cuddles if the other dog is getting cuddles. For example, if I am giving Iorek cuddles and attention Brom will run over and try to get in on the action and vice versa. This is not guarding behaviour, right?


No that is not guarding behaviour, that is getting in on the fun. Where it changes to RG behaviour is when the dog that comes in pushes the other dog OUT or does the RG stance. A lot of dogs RG their owners, from their significant others, from other dogs etc. but coming for love is not QUITE the same thing...a lot depends on the actual behaviours. 
For example if I was petting another dog and Cracker came up and asked for pets too, not a problem, though I would ask her to wait (self control exercise). But if she came up, pushed between us and then pointedly looked at the other dog, lifted her lip or snarked at them..that is guarding behaviour.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

thank you 

Like I said, I am not that far in the book yet. I tried to read it on a prep on Friday but I couldn't really concentrate enough to read the dry material  Boo hoo! I will have to read it at home with less distractions. You know, when something doesn't really grab your attention it is hard to follow when there is noise around you. It also didn't help that they were fixing the door right outside of my classroom!

Brom does not make Iorek go away when he comes for cuddles but he does push his way in. I have not noticed him making any signs at all that he doesn't want Iorek there getting cuddles too. I hope that he continues this way. I am getting nervous reading this book. I plan to nip this all in the bud real soon!

I haven't gotten to the part in the book yet that deals with the actual training. I am still reading the beginning. I can't let Brom have his food on his own because he goes back to guarding it. I have to hold it for him. I am getting worried about the training though because Brom doesn't guard much of anything else other than the raw food. I know that I can practice with him with things that he is not guarding but will it be effective? He does guard his filled kongs a little but I am able to take it from him and take a treat out and give it back to him. I did this the other day without thinking about it. He had a kong that had cheese and hotdogs in it that was not coming out. I took the kong and got some of the hotdog pieces out and got him to sit and gave it to him and then gave the kong back. He has been much better with the kongs.

I am working on impulse control with him as well. He LOVES his kongs and will try to jump the gate that we have blocking the living room from the bedrooms to get his kong faster since he gets it in the bedroom (well, used to, his kennel is in the dining room now). I am working on getting him to sit before I open the gate. He also jumps like a lunatic when he wants to get in the bedroom at night because he gets a few treats when he goes to bed too. I am getting him to sit before I open the door. He learns VERY fast since he is so food motivated. He is a hard dog but it really is much easier since he is so food motivated!! He learned to sit before the gate and the door in a few attempts. I will have to teach him to sit and wait his turn for cuddles too. Iorek is not as insistent when he comes for cuddles if Brom is getting them


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

ioreks_mom said:


> Brom does not make Iorek go away when he comes for cuddles but he does push his way in. I have not noticed him making any signs at all that he doesn't want Iorek there getting cuddles too. I hope that he continues this way. I am getting nervous reading this book. I plan to nip this all in the bud real soon


!

Dont' get nervous, you are dealing with it early and that makes a lot of difference.



> I haven't gotten to the part in the book yet that deals with the actual training. I am still reading the beginning. I can't let Brom have his food on his own because he goes back to guarding it. I have to hold it for him. I am getting worried about the training though because Brom doesn't guard much of anything else other than the raw food. *I know that I can practice with him with things that he is not guarding but will it be effective?*


Only time will tell..but the concept is that you start with things that have little meaning to him to help make the "give" sequence smooth and INNATE, just like any other training..so that when you REALLY need it, it just happens before he even thinks about it..make sense?




> He does guard his filled kongs a little but I am able to take it from him and take a treat out and give it back to him. I did this the other day without thinking about it. He had a kong that had cheese and hotdogs in it that was not coming out. I took the kong and got some of the hotdog pieces out and got him to sit and gave it to him and then gave the kong back. He has been much better with the kongs.


This is the exact concept behind the training, he learns that things he gives up COME BACK.




> I am working on impulse control with him as well. He LOVES his kongs and will try to jump the gate that we have blocking the living room from the bedrooms to get his kong faster since he gets it in the bedroom (well, used to, his kennel is in the dining room now). I am working on getting him to sit before I open the gate. He also jumps like a lunatic when he wants to get in the bedroom at night because he gets a few treats when he goes to bed too. I am getting him to sit before I open the door. He learns VERY fast since he is so food motivated. He is a hard dog but it really is much easier since he is so food motivated!! He learned to sit before the gate and the door in a few attempts. I will have to teach him to sit and wait his turn for cuddles too. Iorek is not as insistent when he comes for cuddles if Brom is getting them


NILIF is a huge component of RG desensitization.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Thank you for your help. 

We always work on "give" but I say "lemme see". Same thing, different word. He gives up what he has to get a treat. I read in the book that bribe is not good, but it is better than wrestling the object out of his mouth.  I thought that it was ok to trade for something. He gives up the things he picks up outside for a piece of dehydrated liver and excited talk from me "Brom, let mommy see! Come see what mommy has! Oh boy!! Oh boy!!" He will drop what he has and come over for the treat. This didn't work for the chicken and that is how i realized he had a problem.

Brom actually worked on the lemme see thing A LOT on his own! He would go out into the yard and pick up leaves and stuff like that and look at me expectantly to get a treat when he spits it out! Haha! Silly boy


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Neither of my girls food guard from me.

But they do guard me from each other, and food from each oter depending on it's value. From occasion lip lifting, to blocking with their body to try to keep the other away from me..

Is the book good, worth buying for some ideas on dealing with this?


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

I am not sure that you will be able to stop the guarding between the dogs. I would just feed them in different areas and if you are going to give them high value treats that last a long while - such as a bone - I would crate them or put them in different rooms. 

I would say that the book is definitely a good read, I am not too far in and already learning lots. I will warn that it is more like a text than an easy read but well worth the effort. I got it from dogwise.com


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

I'm glad it's helping you Ioreks_Mom! I know it's pretty dry but there's lots of useful info in there. It sounds like you're doing just fine 



> But they do guard me from each other, and food from each oter depending on it's value. From occasion lip lifting, to blocking with their body to try to keep the other away from me..
> 
> Is the book good, worth buying for some ideas on dealing with this?


Hmmm... honestly, I think that McConnel's "Feeling Outnumbered" is almost a better buy for this type of problem. "Mine!" does have a section on owner guarding, and I'm working through it with Loki because he guards me pretty severely from other family members, dogs, and cats. 

It's pretty much just what you'd expect, desentizing and counterconditioning the dog to the approach of people/dogs/cats etc. when in my vicinity. We started with Loki tied on a short leash about 6' away from me (this distance was sub-threshold for his owner-guarding behavior). DH walks up to me, spends a moment touching my shoulder or standing close, then clicks and tosses a treat at Loki and walks away. After many repetitions we moved up to 3' away from me, and that's where we are right now. Eventually I should be able to sit right next to Loki and be approached by DH without incident. Then we'll start proofing the behavior with other family members and friends. THEN I'll move on to each of the other dogs, and then lastly the cats (because the cats are obviously the most risky of the bunch).


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Oops! I read that the dogs were guarding against food with each other, not the owner.  Maybe I should read things thoroughly before I respond...



nekomi said:


> I'm glad it's helping you Ioreks_Mom! I know it's pretty dry but there's lots of useful info in there. It sounds like you're doing just fine


Thank you Nekomi


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

Ooops, Ioreks_Mom you're right, I re-read the post and she also mentions the dogs guarding food against each other.

TXRider - for that problem, "Mine!" just doesn't have enough information. I really think that is a huge flaw in the book. It briefly goes over dog-to-dog food guarding but doesn't give NEARLY enough information.

Oddly enough, I found the kind of detailed "treatment plan" I was looking for regarding this problem, in one of Donaldson's other books. I bought "Fight!" from Dogwise after Bandit and Jasper had their scuffle. THAT book has a huge section on how to work on dog-to-dog resource guarding, whether it be bones, food, toys, etc. It's very thorough and I think it would help a lot.

In your situation, if you have multiple issues with guarding and not just food, I would buy the following books:

Fight! 
Mine!
Feeling Outnumbered

I have more experience with resource guarding than I'd care to! Yuki (my old foster), Jasper, and Loki are all RAMPANT resource guarders that are in "rehab". These three books together have given me a solid understanding of resource guarding and how to train and manage it.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Haha! We both read different halves of the question  

I thought that it was just natural for dogs to guard from each other, I didn't even realize that something could be done about it. I think that I will have to get Fight! next then.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

nekomi said:


> Ooops, Ioreks_Mom you're right, I re-read the post and she also mentions the dogs guarding food against each other.
> 
> TXRider - for that problem, "Mine!" just doesn't have enough information. I really think that is a huge flaw in the book. It briefly goes over dog-to-dog food guarding but doesn't give NEARLY enough information.
> 
> ...


Sweet, I think I'll get that.

I have had success, they have gotten better, but it hasn't gone away. By far the biggest issue is guarding the other dog from access to me. Guarding food from each other is present but not an issue as neither pushes the other to the point of conflict as they have done guarding access from each other to me.

Fight! sounds like the book for me.

Food guarding against me isn't something I have had trouble getting rid of. Gaurding each other for food, a toy, me seems much more complex an issue.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

After reading DF I need to read Jean...otherwise my brain attenuates to mush, and posts of anteaters are soon to follow. I'm just say'n.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

I had an English teacher who used to say that using big words like that makes the speaker/writer seem dumb. I tend to agree - somewhat! If they are doing only to make themselves look/sound better then yes, it makes them seem dumb. This not directed towards you, CP. This book just reminds me of that every time I read it.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I think that many folks who have done phd work at any level of science simply become habituated to using the language they use in their studies. I know that when I finally have the cash to take the CASI courses that it is expected that students use the exact proper terminology in their assignments. Not looking forward to THAT part..though I do love words, especially big ones. I find that on the forums though, using too much terminology if there is a better choice that will communicate meaning to more people, can simply alienate the reader. I try to find a balance.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

I'm only a fledgling scientist, and sometimes I find it hard to make the transition back to a standard lexicon. See.... I just did it there. 

Most science people I know end up writing and speaking that way for the rest of their lives. It's hard not to for them. Just have to bear with it!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Shhhhh, I'm watching the Big Bang Theory.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

I hope that no one is insulting my ability to read and understand this sort of writing.  I have 2 university degrees and I like to think that I am pretty smart.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I only have a high school education. Neither you nor I represent the "average pet owner" though, do we? LOL
Now, where is Mainstreme Mike when you need him? ROFLMAO


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

ioreks_mom said:


> I hope that no one is insulting my ability to read and understand this sort of writing.  I have 2 university degrees and I like to think that I am pretty smart.


Nope, not insulting. It's actually a super common thing for people who have been in academia for a long time to have difficulty switching out of science speak. It's worse in writing. We get trained for almost a decade to write in a specific tone using a certain set of words to obtain the most concise message possible.

I'm sure it's no different for people with PhD's in dog related study.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

trumpetjock said:


> Nope, not insulting. It's actually a super common thing for people who have been in academia for a long time to have difficulty switching out of science speak.


I think it's just a human trait. We use the language, vocabulary and even accent we are exposed to over a long time.

No different than say a sailor having difficulty in not using the language he is exposed to and using most of the time...


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

With me, I guess since I didn't do a science degree, I gave up writing like that as soon as I could! I hate writing papers so I was glad when I didn't have to do it anymore. I guess it will all be back again when I start my Masters in Education. I plan to do that within the next couple of years.

I think that Mainstream Mike would have loads of trouble with that book then...  I didn't get in on that conversation. I tried to watch the video but didn't get very far  I think that is due to him being annoying and also part of the ADHD...Heehee!


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