# Quick agility contacts question



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Does a dog need to hit the contacts on the way up an A frame or dog walk? 

I know that they need to on the way down but cannot see any specifications in the NADAC handbook for going up. I would assume contact rules are the same across organizations because it's a safety thing. But if they are different I would be curious to know too. Thanks!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

In the AKC, the "upside" contact is only judged on the teeter. On all contacts, the downside is judged.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks so much! So I suppose it doesn't matter how a dog gets on the walk or A frame? Like what if they approach at an angle and just jump on from the side, blowing right past the contact?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Thanks so much! So I suppose it doesn't matter how a dog gets on the walk or A frame? Like what if they approach at an angle and just jump on from the side, blowing right past the contact?


In most organizations I am familiar with that would fall under unsafe performance or failure to complete the obstacle or a refusal depending on various things. Your dog can leap the contact going up because of stride length without being faulted, but they can't just ...skip part of it/go past it and then get on, whatever.

*ETA:* Doesn't mean that the line has to be STRAIGHT ON, but shortest path has to involve the bottom of the contact. You can't just short-cut with a straighter line, leap on halfway up the ramp and expect to avoid being faulted (best) eliminated (likely) or flat out removed from the ring.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

That's what I thought logically. The section of the handbook describing failure to compete did not specify anything but coming off the obstacle.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> That's what I thought logically. The section of the handbook describing failure to compete did not specify anything but coming off the obstacle.


To some degree, particularly in NADAC, it's just going to be judges discretion as to how they call it and at what point. I can think of scenarios where failure to complete would apply, but you're probably right in that the dog FINISHING once they have four feet on is the only technical rule there. 

I think probably the most likely scenario with that would be 'unsafe performance' and a 20 pt fault, assuming the dog didn't just pounce four feet on and then get called off. You MIGHT get away with that, but only if you made them come back and do it correctly the second time. But only very, very maybe. I've also seen unsafer performance called for really, really violent weave poles too, interestingly. And jumping on top of barrels. And leaping off the tops of things.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am currently working hard to correct one of my dog's "upside" performances on the A-Frame. She leaps onto it, often jumping over the yellow contact zone and it's just going to be too hard on her body long-term. But it's legal in our venue.

My advice, which I am sure is also yours: Teach the upside anyway.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

USDAA agility does judge up contacts on the a-frame. That being said, I have never been called on an upside contact with Ocean (and I don't train for them either...LOL)

AKC does not...and NADAC doesn't as far as I could tell. Lars consistently hit their a-frame above the contact zone and he was never called on it. It got worse when they ditched the yellow contact zone and went to that white contact line on a black a-frame because it looks like a jump bar. My BFF's dog (who is in Masters AKC and USDAA) consistently jumped the a-frame contact in NADAC because the white line looks like a jump bar. No where around here has a solid black a-frame with that white line that you can practice on...all of the facilities have the yellow contact zones. So...she couldn't work through it and she left NADAC. (Lars has a running a-frame so he would just stride over it.) If that's the type of equipment NADAC around you has...I would be more concerned with the white contact line and getting a dog not to jump it than I would be about upside contacts.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

All the contact lines I've seen in NADAC are reflective silver tape that's about 2.5 inches wide. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a dog jump it on sight or leap over it, even the AKC dogs who only trial one or two NADAC trials a year. I DO see them balking about the all black equipment though or finding the rubber surfacing weird. That said, familiarity with the equipment in whatever way is good, experiences aren't universal, and so on.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CptJack said:


> I've also seen unsafer performance called for really, really violent weave poles too, interestingly.


This is actually why I left NADAC....the weave poles they use. The club that is here in new England changed out their bases so they are only about an inch wide and the "feet" are also only about an inch wide. AKC and USDAA weave pole bases are at least twice as wide, heavy and they are taped or anchored down The NADAC weave poles aren't stable or heavy enough for my dogs to weave through them...the poles start rocking back and forth hard when my dogs are in them. My dogs end up fighting the weave poles and then their rhythm gets all thrown off and then they pop out or I get E'ed because the weave poles are rocking all over the place. That's incredibly frustrating...


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CptJack said:


> All the contact lines I've seen in NADAC are reflective silver tape that's about 2.5 inches wide. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a dog jump it on sight or leap over it, even the AKC dogs who only trial one or two NADAC trials a year. I DO see them balking about the all black equipment though or finding the rubber surfacing weird. That said, familiarity with the equipment in whatever way is good, experiences aren't universal, and so on.



Tillie consistently jumped that white line...my friend couldn't Q in classes with the a-frame in NADAC and it was a non-issue in AKC and USDAA.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> This is actually why I left NADAC....the weave poles they use. The club that is here in new England changed out their bases so they are only about an inch wide and the "feet" are also only about an inch wide. AKC and USDAA weave pole bases are at least twice as wide, heavy and they are taped or anchored down The NADAC weave poles aren't stable or heavy enough for my dogs to weave through them...the poles start rocking back and forth hard when my dogs are in them. My dogs end up fighting the weave poles and then their rhythm gets all thrown off and then they pop out or I get E'ed because the weave poles are rocking all over the place. That's incredibly frustrating...


Yeah, I think their base is actually regulated to be super narrow and unstaked and they aren't heavy. I understand their reasoning with it, and it works for me and mine but it would be a massive problem for your guys from what I see in vids.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> Tillie consistently jumped that white line...my friend couldn't Q in classes with the a-frame in NADAC and it was a non-issue in AKC and USDAA.


Oh, I have no doubt that it happens/am not questioning you. It isn't something I've seen, but for all I know it's because of a difference in foundations training somewhere, luck, or even just that our lines look like chrome trim on a car, only it's tape.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I said something to the NADAC club about the weave poles bases and they told me to a) slow my dogs down when they get to the weave poles and to b) teach them not to touch the actual poles while weaving. I was like WHAT? Ocean is literally twice the width of a Border Collie or a Sheltie and he weighs 85 pounds.....there's no getting him to not touch the actual poles when he's weaving. :/










I'll stop hijacking the a-frame post about my rants over weave pole bases.... ROFLMAO!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> I said something to the NADAC club about the weave poles bases and they told me to a) slow my dogs down when they get to the weave poles and to b) teach them not to touch the actual poles while weaving. I was like WHAT? Ocean is literally twice the width of a Border Collie or a Sheltie and he weighs 85 pounds.....there's no getting him to not touch the actual poles when he's weaving. :/


Yeah. I mean I see labs who can manage to not touch the poles at all but they're not rotts, either. I understand what they're discouraging and why,but at a certain size it's pretty much speed or avoiding the poles via really, really wide entries and exits. MEANWHILE Kylie won't weave in AKC for crap because the wider base throws her rhythm all to heck. That's not insurmountable but I'll never bother.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CptJack said:


> MEANWHILE Kylie won't weave in AKC for crap because the wider base throws her rhythm all to heck. That's not insurmountable but I'll never bother.


I can totally see and understand that as a thing for a smaller dog with the wider bases.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> I can totally see and understand that as a thing for a smaller dog with the wider bases.


She is definitely a hyper-aware of the base dog, at best. We've got decent weaves now, even snappy ones most of the time though so I'll take it. 

For Canyx, this is the NADAC base:










It does have feet but they're similar width and they're not staked.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Those ^^^ look wider than what the club here has!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

They might actually be. It's a little hard to tell - all I can really compare to is the pole diameter. Kylie throws the scale all to heck.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

You guys are great! Love where the discussion went; all good info to know. Thanks everyone!


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