# Basic Question Regarding GSD's



## GeoHusky (May 4, 2010)

This isn't to start an argument because as i have seen over the last day or so there are quiet a few of you who own and show GSD's.

I am starting this thread because i want to get a better understanding of why the breed has changed so dramatically over the years and what better place to ask then a dog forum!

Watch this video -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIaM3hYFszc

And read this -
http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html

I'd love your opinions!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

A Superior GSD is a crappy link. They don't even have dogs in the right time era 

Not even going to comment on the half dog half frog thing, as it is also a crock.

The links we mentioned earlier from the forum search:
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/69324-german-shepherd-lines.html

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/48497-crippled-german-shepherd.html

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/25658-what-swith-gsd-sloped.html

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/12895-german-shepherd-dogs-their.html


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## GeoHusky (May 4, 2010)

Thanks for the links, Pretty much answers my question!

However, the half dog half frog link it's a crock, They wouldn't have made it if it was, I believe what they're saying!!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> They wouldn't have made it if it was, I believe what they're saying!!


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

My half frog is getting along just fine, thank you.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Poorly bred GSD's from BYB's and Puppy mills may very well be 'frog dogs', but they in no way represent the breed standard. This is just another fine example of why it is so important to support responsible, ethical breeding. We actually -had- a 2 year old 'frog dog' GSD turned over to our shelter not too long ago. A family had come in to meet her and took her out for a walk.. then they were going to fill out an application when the woman said, "She's not spay yet right?" and I said, "Nope not yet--" and she replied, "Oh, Good! We have a male Shepherd at home, I bet they could make lots of puppies!" Can you say -DENIED-? 

Anyway she was eventually adopted out to a different family who brought her back a month later and said they had taken her to the vet because of her odd gait, and discovered she had severe hip dysplasia in both hips. They weren't up to paying for the surgery that probably wasn't going to help, so they brought her back in hopes that she would find someone who could afford to pay for the surgery. Her hips and pain got worse after she was brought back and the decision was made to have her put down. Her life, pain and death were all brought about by irresponsible breeders who couldn't care less about the health of their dogs or the lives they would lead. It is absolutely appalling how little regard some people can have for the lives of animals, toss it all to the wind just to make a buck.


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## GeoHusky (May 4, 2010)

Binkalette great post!!

Poor dog 

What gets me is they way they move and how they're bodies are, their being shown like it (check out the video), People place those dogs as champions and then they get bred with and have puppies who have the same problems as the perants, So people are breeding a health issue and a problem. I cannot see this being the breed standard? you breed dogs to better the standard not create half frogs or dogs with serious health and gait problems, so what breeders are going to inbreed to fix the health problems?, grandsire to grand daughter? ha.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> A Superior GSD is a crappy link. They don't even have dogs in the right time era
> 
> Not even going to comment on the half dog half frog thing, as it is also a crock.
> 
> ...


Then there is this link...

http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm


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## GeoHusky (May 4, 2010)

TxRider said:


> Then there is this link...
> 
> http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm


Great link!

However, In the 'Part three' it shows the gait, the gait is SO MUCH different to the gait shown at a crafts show in the video i posted in my original post!


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## Settican (Apr 5, 2008)

I've own a German Shepherd from German highlines/showlines, or "frog dogs" as they are called in that video. It annoys me that people make assumptions that my dog is unhealthy because of his structure. He is a breed Champion and his hips are perfect. He's going to be 9 years old in August and looks great for his age, no sign of breaking down/stopping anytime soon, still able to run and jump like any other dog. Also, just a note on the gaiting, I'm pretty sure that those dogs would look so much better gaiting free/off lead, it's not going to happen at most shows though, that's one of the reasons I love the SV type shows


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I two own show line dogs. None of them have issues getting around, and one is a full time service dog. He's got basic titles, and I'm still considering trying to get his CDX. The little girl I have will have titles out the yang AND become a breed champion.

You may want to think, GeoHusky, before insulting the dogs that some of us have that you've never met and have never seen.

The sable "Frog dog" in one of those many threads has been on sheep...and was AWESOME. I wish he was mine, because we would have been at herding lessons every week


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph, do you have pics of the same dogs in a stack, and standing 4 square?

Might be instructive for what a stack is and isn't as well as how it affects the look of the dog in pics.

I think a lot of what I see in the GSD is from being bred for a good looking flying trot in the ring.

Something neither of my BYB or whatever my girls came from have. 

Kaya is just very oddly built, straight rear legs and though I can't see it I still think she's a mix just from her temperament and behavior. Or she's just a pretty mutated GSD.

Hope is leggy in back, either front legs too short or back legs too long. Her trot is bouncy, and in a stack her back is pretty level. 

That said I doubt any show line GSD I have ever seen could keep up with her in a full run. I actually haven't seen any dog that could yet, and she loves to chase down any dog that runs. But that long back and legs could be why she has back problems as well.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Won't be able to get any pictures of Justin standing four square, since I no longer reside in Wisconsin, but when my husband gets home I can take pictures of Mirada and Strauss.

Here are some regular stacks of Mirada though, showing how different I can make her look just by moving one of her rear feet.

Relatively extreme:


















Moderate:


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Interesting, I don't think I could actually stack Hope in any way that would have her hock on the forward leg as horizontal as say that first pic.

Now you got me going so I'll have to try..


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Strauss in various stacks


















































































With the exception of ONE dog, Strauss is entirely show lines.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Xeph, your dogs are about as 'extreme' as I like to see for the breed. I have seen some over the top dogs around here (Alberta) that have no back end at all, are quite narrow and just don't look like a stable dog anymore (I'd worry if the wind picked up they'd blow right over!). There was a fellow who got a GSD from show lines to do agility, she could weave with the best of them, but had a horrible time jumping even low jumps (I think it was 16 inches he showed her in and she still had problems) which to me is a shame for a working dog. 

But, in the end it's what the judges pick out of what they've got to judge - if there isn't any dogs with a solid build in the show ring, they have to pick something!

The same thing could be said of border collies in the show ring, the working dog people complain that the show dogs are all fluffy solid looking dogs - smooth coat is allowed in the ring. But, if nobody with smooth coated dogs shows them.....

Lana


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph, your dogs are about as 'extreme' as I like to see for the breed.


I'd like better turn of stifle on Strauss, but am quite happy with his length of tibia.

I do not like overly extreme dogs myself, but do prefer a well angulated dog to some others I see.

I think (and I say this all the time) that there are some BEAUTIFULLY structured working lines that aren't getting their due....and it's largely in part because they're sable >.<

I do not mind black and red, but all you see in the German ring is black and red saddles. 

Something the Americans DO have over the Germans is that they DO NOT discriminate against color. You've got blacks, bi colors, blankets, saddles, and sables all at a show.

I go to an SV show and all I see is saddled dogs. How boring.


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## Nessa (Mar 26, 2010)

This may be a bit off topic but Xeph you seem to know alot about GSD's think you could tell me what the abbreviations mean before or after this dogs name?http://www.darby-dan.com/jimv.htm


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Nessa said:


> This may be a bit off topic but Xeph you seem to know alot about GSD's think you could tell me what the abbreviations mean before or after this dogs name?http://www.darby-dan.com/jimv.htm


1999 North American Vize Sieger
Canadian Select, US CH, 2x VA
Jim vom Fiemereck ROM
SchH3 KKL 1a Life
OFA GS-51055G24M-T & EL7877-T 

1999 North American Vize Sieger- Means in 1999 this dog was second place in a German-style show ring, earning a "VA" title. VA is ONLY give at a National breed show. North American refers to the fact that it was HERE, not in Germany.

Canadian Select- At the Candian Nationals for Am Bred-type dogs, a few are chosen by the judge as "select" means the top of the top, varies how many are chosen.

USCH- Means the dog has the required 15 points (with 2 majors) in the US AKC show ring to be an AKC Champion

2x VA= see above for VA. 2 times means beyond his Vice Sieger (Sieger is #1) he was VA without being first or second another time.

Afters:

ROM: Register of Merit from the AKC and the GSDCA. Means a dog has so many points awarded to him from his offspring's wins and placings, to deem he is a sire of merit.

SchH3: Is the highest level of Schutzhund title attainable. There is a 1, 2, and 3. He has a 3, he MUST have a 3 to be awarded a VA title I believe.

KKLa: KKL is short for "Koerklasse" meaning the dog, and his titles and his "a" stamp for hips (same as OFA) were presented to a judge. He was measured, evaluated, and watched do bitework. He was then awarded Koerklasse "1" which means "recommended for breeding" as opposed to "2" meaning "suitable for breeding"

Life: Once a dog is Koerklassed, he must represent the next year again. Exceptions are given for bitches that have been bred. Once a dog has been KKL twice in a row, it is granted "for life" and the dog does not need to be Koered again. This is also shown as "Lbz" which is an abbreviation for the German word.

OFA GS-51055G24M-T: OFA number for hips. He was GOOD, and evaluated at 24 months. He was permenently identified with a Tattoo.

& EL7877-T: OFA for elbows. Normal, or a number would not be given. Also identified by tattoo on the x-rays.


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## Nessa (Mar 26, 2010)

Well thanks a ton or explaining all of that! I do not know all the titles or anything about show dogs and am trying to learn. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Nessa said:


> Well thanks a ton or explaining all of that! I do not know all the titles or anything about show dogs and am trying to learn. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out.


Anytime. Although I do not own one now, I've had many years experience with both working line and American show line GSDs.

What made Jim unusual, is that he was a German SV style dog, yet he managed to obtain his AKC Championship, and a Canadian Select title, as well as his ROM. It says on his page he was the first import in 40 years to get his ROM.

While one could argue that his majors were gotten under judges known to like a more German Style dog, the fact exists that the judges that recognized his type existed and the points were earned.

I'm not generally a fan of the German showlines, but did have a chance to see and meet Jim and he was a good dog that LOOKED like a German Shepherd.


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## Nessa (Mar 26, 2010)

I was interested in him really because he is my dogs grandfather, but i had no idea what any of the titles meant. What are the big differences in the working lines and the show lines? Most people just say the slope in the back?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Temperament is different, structure is different, drive is different, color is different, energy levels are different....

Shepherds with proper angulation, regardless of line, will have a slight drop in the hindquarter when stacked


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Nessa said:


> What are the big differences in the working lines and the show lines?


Everything.


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## Nessa (Mar 26, 2010)

Hmm had no idea there were that many differences. Well thanks for educating me some today.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Mirada standing 4 square. She set herself up. I didn't touch her.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Mirada standing 4 square. She set herself up. I didn't touch her.


Just so I get the pics on the same screen...










She certainly looks like a sturdy little girl so far.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yes indeedy! But it's amazing how different she looks isn't it?

To somebody that doesn't know what they're looking at, Mirada is overangulated and "has too much slope!". Her topline is wonderfully strong and perfectly fine both in motion, stacked, and on the rare occasion she stands four square!

Admittedly, she's a bit butt high in motion right now. Can't wait for her to level back out!


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## Settican (Apr 5, 2008)

Mirada looks gorgeous!

I have a few pics of my previous German Showline dog, Peone, standing stacked and then normally, hope no one minds if I share them 









Don't really like how her topline looks in this picture, I think she's around 9 months here (this was before I owned her)









Not the best angle, but Peone used to self stack beautifully









And then in a more normal stance


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Lovely girl! It's amazing how she looks in a slightly more natural stack! I bet if that rear foot had been pulled back slightly more, she still would have maintained a good topline


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

GeoHusky said:


> Binkalette great post!!
> 
> Poor dog
> 
> What gets me is they way they move and how they're bodies are, their being shown like it (check out the video), People place those dogs as champions and then they get bred with and have puppies who have the same problems as the perants, So people are breeding a health issue and a problem. I cannot see this being the breed standard? you breed dogs to better the standard not create half frogs or dogs with serious health and gait problems, so what breeders are going to inbreed to fix the health problems?, grandsire to grand daughter? ha.


 
Until you see the dog doing the job it was originally bred to do, herding. 


*German Shepherd *Sheep *Herding *Fun Day, Video of my *German Shepherd *"Peekay" participating


*German Shepherd Sheep Herding Fun Day*



, Stretch *herding *at StockDog University in Muncie


*Stretch German Shepherd Herding Sheep*




The power comes from that lowered rear end everybody loves to hate. You also see it when they are doing obsticles and bitework at Sch competions.
Stretch (Quercus Holz von Prufenpuden, RN)takes pa


*Stretch Young German Shepherd Bitework Training *

*clip #2, the dogs in this clip : Gozak Lev Praee - son of Meky, Lev Praee Israel, Face Lev Praee - daughter of Blek. This clip was pictured during one of the lessons of the decoy course with Amnon Ben Izhak. The dogs are IWGSDC registered www.iwgsdc.org kennel Lev Praee, instructor Amnon Ben ...


<H3>German shepherd dog training decoy course 2*




</H3>


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't mind GSDs having a slope or slanted back, as long as its not hurting the dog physically. 

Personally, I don't want a dog that has a really sloped back.It looks weird and odd to me, but thats IMO.

My girl isn't from a breeder, nor do I know her lines or what they can be.My other dog, he maybe mix, but we are not sure, because in some cases he looks pure.

If I ever did get a GSD from a breeder I would want it of Working Lines, as for whether I want American or German, that is yet to be decided.lol

Well anyways, my girl, Molly, has a straight back, some people say its rare for a GSD to have a straight back.Not sure what they mean by it.

Well here is my girl:














































She will stack sometimes, but when she does there is like no slant or angulation.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There aren't American working lines, just American show lines.



> some people say its rare for a GSD to have a straight back


That's largely because they're ridiculously ignorant.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Xeph said:


> There aren't American working lines, just American show lines.
> 
> 
> That's largely because they're ridiculously ignorant.


I thought there was something wrong.lol. I have seen many straight back GSDs.I wouldn't ignorant but probably uneducated or the straightback are rare where they are located


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I always just thought that it was how they make them stack for the shows. I never did think they were actually sloped like that. Strauss and Mirada look pretty sturdy to me, though I have seen some GSDs with skinny hips. 

I have also seen some....hunch-backed? GSDs. Roached, I think it's called. Is that something that actually wins at some shows or is that evidence of bad breeding? Since I haven't seen many show dogs, or even dogs that could be possibly called "well-bred", I'm not really sure what I'm looking at.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Settican said:


> Mirada looks gorgeous!
> 
> I have a few pics of my previous German Showline dog, Peone, standing stacked and then normally, hope no one minds if I share them
> 
> ...


Peone is very pretty, and Xeph, I loved the shots of Mirada and Strauss!!

Auz looking ridiculously roached:










Nicer








Straight back below!!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Is that something that actually wins at some shows


You bet it does!!!

The West German Roached Topline is the American's rear angles. There are some VERY nice correct dogs out there with proper toplines and proper rears...but they are often over looked for extreme dogs that are flashy in color, coat, and movement.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I always just thought that it was how they make them stack for the shows. I never did think they were actually sloped like that. Strauss and Mirada look pretty sturdy to me, though I have seen some GSDs with skinny hips.
> 
> I have also seen some....hunch-backed? GSDs. Roached, I think it's called. Is that something that actually wins at some shows or is that evidence of bad breeding? Since I haven't seen many show dogs, or even dogs that could be possibly called "well-bred", I'm not really sure what I'm looking at.


The roached back is the poster child for the west german show lines


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So a dog like this might win, or is this too extreme?








Because, seriously, that's just wrong.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Willowy said:


> So a dog like this might win, or is this too extreme?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


honistly Willowy that photo is a very bad angle and bad pose to judge anything. I know many dogs that look terribly roached when their crunching up their bodies and getting a smell off the ground who otherwise have nice straight backs.


THIS on the other hand....









Or this.... When people say americans have ruined the breed I laugh and show them this.









again as a disclaimer, remember both of these dogs are very extreme examples and are in no way a representative of the majority.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Keechak said:


> honistly Willowy that photo is a very bad angle and bad pose to judge anything.


There are more pics of him and he really is that hunched. I'd have to see him move to say for sure but he looks fairly crippled to me. The person who posted the pics got all offended when people said he looked to be in pain. I saw a dog at a show once (the dog was not in the show, just visiting) that looked like that, too.

Um, yeah, those pics you have are pretty bad. What are the justifications for that kind of thing? I understand a slight curvature but that's not right.

Glad I'm not "into" GSDs or I'd be pretty mad. Just liking dogs I'm disgusted but it would be worse if I really knew something.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Keechak said:


> honistly Willowy that photo is a very bad angle and bad pose to judge anything. I know many dogs that look terribly roached when their crunching up their bodies and getting a smell off the ground who otherwise have nice straight backs.
> 
> 
> THIS on the other hand....
> ...


AHHH!! is the second dog German Bred?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

JessieLove09 said:


> AHHH!! is the second dog German Bred?


I don't really know but something makes me think, no. At least he doesn't look like anything like a typical, even extreme example, of a west german dog. My guess is one of the South American dogs, but I could be totally wrong don't quote me.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Either way its not very pretty.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Both those dogs are West German show lines. Even if the dog is FROM South America, the LINES are still West German.


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