# New bulldog. Stubborn or stupid?



## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Ok guys and gals, I need some help here. 3 weeks into a new puppy and I am thoroughly convinced that Bulldogs are just freaking stupid. I am going to give you some background so you can tell me what I am doing wrong, because either I am doing it wrong or the dog is as dumb as a stump. This may be a little long, but please read it and help me if you can.

*About me:* 40 years old, stay at home dad with an 18-month-old son.
Experience: Raised, enjoyed, and buried 6 dogs in my lifetime. 2 Pointers, 3 Labs, and a MinPin.
Successfully house-trained, and field trained the pointers and the labs.

*The Culprit:* 3 month old Female English Bulldog 

*The Problem:* Potty training, destructive behavior, play-biting, refusing to obey, and possibly a severe learning disability. Can dogs get ADD?

*The Set-up:* 

4000 sqft house with all hardwood and tile. Bedrooms, office, library, laundry room, garbage pantry, dining room, etc… all closed off. Dog only has access to Den, playroom, kitchen, and only because they are all interconnected. 

Approximately 10,000sqft fenced in back yard. 

An appropriately sized crate in my bedroom for nighttime. 

A 5x5 x-pen, containing a small water bowl, very nice dog bed, and several chew toys; set up in the Den for when she can’t have my full undivided attention.

She has access to water all day, although she is not a heavy drinker. LOL. 

She eats 110 grams of Royal Canin Maxi babydog 30 kibble, three times per day. 8:00a, 12:30p, 5:30p.

The problems in depth:

*Potty training.* Ok I know 3 month old puppies have accidents, but come on 6-7 per day. Conventional wisdom says that a puppy should be able to hold it for a number of hours equal to its age in months. So this little girl should be able to go three hours tops, and she can…at night.
I crate her from about 11:00p to 6:00a. I get up with her twice per night once around 2am and once around 4am, then at 6:00am when my day starts. She has never had an accident in the crate. 
The trouble starts during the day. At 6 am I take her out for thirty minutes sometimes she pees sometimes not. If she pees I usually let her hang out with me in the kitchen while I make breakfast, if she refuses I put her in the x-pen. While the kids eat breakfast I take her out again 15-30 minutes. Nothing. Put her back in the x-pen and she pees on the floor. It repeats like this all day long. I spend most of my day outside. Yesterday, between the hours of 6am-11pm, I spent 7 solid hours outside and still cleaned up 6 accidents in the house. Sometimes she will eliminate outside, then we will play for about 15 minutes and return inside and she will pee or poop again on the floor.

I am home all day, I want her to enjoy the house, but more and more she is spending time in the x-pen (even though she still goes in it). You can’t crate a dog all day, but I can’t spend 10 hours a day outside waiting for her to go. I always use positive reinforcement and treats, but she really doesn’t seem to care. I have tried taking her out on a leash and she refuses to go while on it.

*Destructive behavior.* I know puppies are chewing machines, but this dog only chews stuff I don’t want her to. She has plenty of toys, chew bones, etc… but she seeks of furniture, flowerbeds, grill covers, trees, roses, kids toys, kids arms and legs, fences, wrought iron gates, firewood, pant legs, dirt clods, her dog bed, the cat’s wicker basket. When she starts to chew these things, I clap my hands. She pauses then goes back to chewing. I then grab her by the scruff, tell her no, and move her to a new location and give her an appropriate toy. She ignores it and runs off to chew the next thing on the contraband list. 

I am really at a loss. She doesn’t care for treats. Verbal and physical praise just makes her look at me like I’m stupid. She doesn’t seem to want to please me. I can’t get her to come to me across the yard even if I am rattling her food bag. She ignores "no" and swatting her only results in play biting. What am I doing wrong?


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## volleyballgk (Jan 15, 2008)

I don't know that I can help you with your training issues. I know there are much better qualified people on here than me for that. However, to answer for bulldogs as a breed...Yes, they can be stubborn, but are certainly not stupid. My bullie Lizzy is 14 months old. She is successfully housetrained and knows basic commands. Her limitation of commands is due to my failure to continue her training, not her inteligence. Bulldogs are chronic chewers, that just comes with the breed. I can only suggest trying other chew items than what you've given her. Have you tried bully sticks, pig ears, or raw bones? Could her destructive tendencies be the result of boredom? How often do you play with her? How much time have you spent bonding and interacting with her? Bulldogs as a breed are typically very loyal companion dogs and do not have an excess of energy which therefore makes their favorite activity sleeping on your lap. At least that has been my experience. Bulldogs truly are a wonderful breed, IMO  and hopefully you will soon be able to resolve your training issues with her.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

volleyballgk said:


> Have you tried bully sticks, pig ears, or raw bones? Could her destructive tendencies be the result of boredom? How often do you play with her? How much time have you spent bonding and interacting with her? .


Great to hear from a bully owner. Thank you.

1. Never heard of bully sticks. I thought pig ears were dangerous. Haven't tried raw bones, but I thought that may make her want the garbage. I have tried those vegi and meat edible bones, kongs, rope toys, stuffed animals, tennis balls, hard rubber toys, squeaky toys.

2. There is no way this is from boredom. I spend 7 hours a day outside with her. much of that time it playing hoping she will pee or poo while we are out there.

3. I have spent 17 hours per day with that dog minus cooking, bathing, eating, the hour it takes me to pick my other kids from school, and my need to eliminate. (even then she is in the bathroom with me. LOL. I know more info than you needed.)

I appreciate your suggestions though. I will look into bully sticks.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

My opinion is pig ears, rawhide bone etc are a gamble some dogs will live a full life with absolutely no problems. Other dogs not so lucky. It's a personal choice. If somebody drops dog off for boarding and they have the rawhide/pig ear stuff for their dogs I send it back home with them or they can board somewhere else. I do prefer Nylabones or Kongs. Now this is just something that has worked with some pups, Take pup out and cable him ouside and leave him, you can get this setup so you can view from a window. Problem is bulldogs sometimes are hard to find collars they can't slip out of and I don't like any choke collars. There is a martingale collar that can be adjusted to size of dog's neck so it will pull tight but not choke dog. 2nd choice order a portable kennel run and set it up on concrete or a tough rubber mat so dog can't dig under. (notice I don't care how I spend your money) The theory behind all this is some pups when you are outside with them all thoughts of going potty eludes them as they are more interested in you. I actually had a dog that stopped being housebroke and I boarded her (Husky) in an outdoor only kennel run for 30 days. This kickstarted the habit of going outside again, (she had no choice) then I restarted her crate work and another 30 days by the time her obedience was done she was trained and housebroke. I was lucky. Is this method going to work on your dog? I don't have a clue. It's just an option. Bulldogs being stupid, in every breed of dog there are some at the top and some at the bottom of the intelligence totem pole, and all the variables in between.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

You state that you have a 18 month old son- thats work. Do you let your son chew stuff all day long? Run all over the house and get into everything ? And does he speak fully understandable yet? Probably not. Same for the pup. It sounds like you are trying real hard to do the right thing, but are stressed about it- the pup feels that- hard to go when you're stressed. Maybe put a small area pen outside, put her in and relax while you get to do a chore. Praise when you see that she's done her "business", but try not to bring her in and out that much- thats hectic. Chewing- good when you clap hands, but they simply dont know what it means- praise her when she looks at you, then point at the toy and tell her firmly "Bad". If she continues, tap her nose with one finger and point again with "Bad"- they will make the right decision, but simply have to learn "english" and you're the one having to teach her. Dont leave her unsupervised in the yard either and yes- put the leash on her- she cant hold it forever with a leash on and she should get used to it. Everytime she looks at you, gives eye contact- praise and tell her name kinda like " Good girl Yuna"". Keep in mind that she is learning totaly different behaviro, totaly different language with you as the only guidance- not a easy thing. They are no more stubborn or stupid then other dogs, but rather sensitive, so just give it a little time and patience


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

shewolf
I did mention set it up so he can view dog through window. Dog should be supervised but it's not necessary for dog to know it's being supervised. The theory being if pup does not have distraction of owner maybe he can concentrate on getting the job done. It's necessary for owner to view so he can reward when pup does duty.

*They are no more stubborn or stupid then other dogs, but rather sensitive, so just give it a little time and patience*

Correct on stubborn and stupid, But other breeds also have their sensitive dogs.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Now this is just something that has worked with some pups, Take pup out and cable him ouside and leave him, you can get this setup so you can view from a window. Problem is bulldogs sometimes are hard to find collars they can't slip out of and I don't like any choke collars. There is a martingale collar that can be adjusted to size of dog's neck so it will pull tight but not choke dog. 2nd choice order a portable kennel run and set it up on concrete or a tough rubber mat so dog can't dig under. (notice I don't care how I spend your money)


What about another x-pen set up outside. I could do that and let her out after she goes. She hasn't shown any signs of digging, so I am not sure the mat would be necessary. I am not fond of cabling her up. Another thing is that I am in Texas and it is already getting warm. I don't want her stroking out on me. She already get pretty warm when we spend so much time outside trying to get her to go.

I like the idea though I may try it today. Thank you.



shewolf4 said:


> You state that you have a 18 month old son- thats work. Do you let your son chew stuff all day long? Run all over the house and get into everything ? And does he speak fully understandable yet? Probably not.


Let's not be condescending. Of course I do not let him run around getting into stuff. And no he does not act perfect all the time, but every day he makes progress. And that is what I am missing with the bulldog. Lack of progress. 

But of course as soon as I type this, I have to eat my words because this morning she did pee while on the leash. Unfortunately she came in 15 minutes later and pooped and peed in the kitchen.



shewolf4 said:


> Maybe put a small area pen outside, put her in and relax while you get to do a chore. Praise when you see that she's done her "business", but try not to bring her in and out that much- thats hectic.


This was mention above, and I like the idea thank you.



shewolf4 said:


> Chewing- good when you clap hands, but they simply dont know what it means- praise her when she looks at you, then point at the toy and tell her firmly "Bad". If she continues, tap her nose with one finger and point again with "Bad"- they will make the right decision, but simply have to learn "english" and you're the one having to teach her.


I will definitely try this approach. I can't see how it is very much different from what I am doing, but maybe your way is the magic formula. An at this point I am open to anything....short of cruelty. 



shewolf4 said:


> Dont leave her unsupervised in the yard either


Never do. Thank you for the advice.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

Whenever I get a pup that "wont do anything on a leash" I grap my java, sit in a chair with a book and relax- it takes time- thats all. If one of us is trying to to the bathroom while someone is standing there, we would have a hard time too. I also can tell when someone comes around that is tense- most of us can and it tenses us up too, so just relax, clarify what you like this pup to learn and take it in simple steps. I agree with most dogs being sensitive, puppies more so. Being taken from "their family", new surroundings, new everything, is allot to digest- everyone would become allot more sensitive, I just tried to point out the obvious that becomes "the granted" so often.Having a 18 month old running around "helping" you, is work in itself, not to mention other kids, so we tend to forget things and rush more. Its not that hot here in Texas yet to stroke a pup out, we've been pretty lucky so far, so maybe set up in the shade or set up a umbrella. In any case- relax and take a deep breath- life is too short and it can become a great lesson all around. Hey- you 18 month old is getting close to being potty trained- here is your practice  sorry- couldnt resist


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

You betcha, I operate by Murphy's law so I tend to overkill. Never used X-pen, have always had kennel runs handy. If you can set up in shade or tarp over top of pen. You have to judge your environment. One thing not mentioned, obviously you will scoop poop but the urine smell in pen will help trigger pup to keep doing his job. I liked rubber mats because they are easier to keep clean after pup has started going regularly and doesn't need the urine odor. You are trying to start a habit.

*What about another x-pen set up outside. I could do that and let her out after she goes. She hasn't shown any signs of digging, so I am not sure the mat would be necessary. I am not fond of cabling her up. Another thing is that I am in Texas and it is already getting warm. I don't want her stroking out on me. She already get pretty warm when we spend so much time outside trying to get her to go.*


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

shewolf4 said:


> In any case- relax and take a deep breath- life is too short and it can become a great lesson all around. Hey- you 18 month old is getting close to being potty trained- here is your practice  sorry- couldnt resist


So very true! LOL.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

nuggsgalore said:


> Ok guys and gals, I need some help here. 3 weeks into a new puppy and I am thoroughly convinced that Bulldogs are just freaking stupid. I am going to give you some background so you can tell me what I am doing wrong, because either I am doing it wrong or the dog is as dumb as a stump. This may be a little long, but please read it and help me if you can.
> 
> *About me:* 40 years old, stay at home dad with an 18-month-old son.
> Experience: Raised, enjoyed, and buried 6 dogs in my lifetime. 2 Pointers, 3 Labs, and a MinPin.
> ...


I addressed all your issues in red.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Durbkat said:


> I know your not asking about food but royal canin is a really bad food. It's like eating mcdonalds everyday. It's just not good. Try switching her to a higher quality food, these foods won't be sold in grocery stores, vets, or at pet stores.


Really? This is what the breeder had her on so we continued. What do you recommend? 



Durbkat said:


> That rule about 1 hour per month old basically goes out the window with small breed dogs. When my dog was 3 months, he is a shih tzu, he went about every 30 minutes.


Is a bulldog considered a small breed? I had no idea. 



Durbkat said:


> What are you cleaning accidents up with? If you aren't cleaning up with an enzyme cleaner such as natures miracle then that is a reason why she continues to go inside


Yes I am cleaning up the accidents with Natures Miracle.



Durbkat said:


> I wouldn't let her get free roam of the house, not sure if you are, but yes a dog can and should be crated when you can not keep your eyes on her 100 % of the time. When you take her outside and she goes jump around and praise her and say in a super excited voice "good potty [insert name]!!!" Also tell her to "go potty" once when you get to the potty spot on leash. She will need to get used to the leash at some point. What I did when house training my dog was to grab a chair, listen to my iPod and wait. Sometimes I was out there for 45 minutes but he eventually went. If you don't have time for that then go outside for 10 minutes. If she doesn't go then put her in the crate, not the x-pen, for 5 minutes and try again.


When she is loose in the house she is under constant supervision, but realistically I have an 18 month old sometimes they go in opposite directions. If I know I need to concentrate on my son, I put her in the x-pen in the den.

I have been doing the iPod thing, and waiting 45 minutes for her to go is becoming a problem. Those 45 minute potty breaks start adding up. Like I wrote, I clocked 7 hours outside with her in one day.

I do like the idea of putting her in the crate for 10 minutes and taking her back out. She does so well in the crate at night, I am afraid she may start seeing it as a punishment. This would not mess up her ability to sleep calmly in the crate at night would it?



Durbkat said:


> I would not grab her by the scruff of her neck, for one thing thats animal abuse..... Another thing that can help with the chewing is bitter apple spray. You spray it on the popular chew items that she chews on and when she chews on it, it will taste really bad and should discourage her.


I have to respectfully disagree. I do not believe grabbing her gently by the scruff is abusing her. Sorry. If you read the post you will see that I am doing almost exactly what you suggested. I clap my hands say "NO" and give her an appropriate chew toy. The only difference, besides grabbing her gently by the scruff, is you say "ah ah" and I say "NO". 



Durbkat said:


> And finally she is a 3 month old puppy, you are expecting way to much from her at this age.


You probably have a valid point there. Maybe I am expecting too much, but I am not expecting perfection....just progress. Thank you for the advice. I would love to put her on a good food. I look forward to your recommendations.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Grabbing her by the scruff really is a bad idea. No, it's not abuse, but it isn't working, right? You can train the dog without ever having to touch it. (Of course we want to pet the dog hehe). 

Have you read anything on puppy-proofing the house? It's like child proofing. Do you leave things laying around that you don't want your 18 mo old to have? Why does the puppy have access to so many "contraband" items?

First, remove all of those items. Give the puppy a few toys of his own. Whenever he chews on or plays with them, reward him (either click and treat or however you plan on training). If he does get ahold of something he can't have, remove it completely, and give him a good toy. There shouldn't be anything else around. Then reward him for even looking at the right toy. If he is chewing on the furniture or something spray some bitter apple on it.

We use California Naturals. You can find reviews of dog foods here: http://dogfoodanalysis.com/
Looks like Royal Canine is a 2 star out of 6. One of the good ones a lot of people here use is Canidae. We are going to switch to it later, but for now I like the California Naturals because it was much better for Sadie's digestion than Blue Bufallo, which we tried first.

Edit: Sorry, replace he with she.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I recommend canidae. That is what I feed my dog. You can locate a store near you that sells it by go to http://www.canidae.com and click on store locator.

I consider bull dogs to be a small breed of dog. Mine is a toy breed so I suppose that is different.

No it should not affect her at all with sleeping calmly at night. Since she is already sleeping calmly in it then she wouldn't view it any differently if you put her in it during the day. The reason you would put her in the crate during the day when you are trying to get her to go potty is to make sure she won't go when you bring her in. You said she was having accidents in the x-pen but not in the crate so that is why you put her in the crate. If she doesn't go within 10 minutes she has to stay in the crate to refocus her on that she needs to go potty. This teaches the dog that if they hurry up and go potty they get more free time. 

Like jerirose said, you haven't seen any progress by grabbing her by the scruff have you? Then why continue with it?

I never noticed much progress with my dog till he was almost 4 months old I believe. He caught on to pad training pretty fast but when he turned 5 months and I decided to house train him it seemed like no progress was being made till he turned 6 to 7 months old.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Grabbing her by the scruff really is a bad idea. No, it's not abuse, but it isn't working, right?


Well I can't disagree with that. It is most definitely NOT working. I would more than happy to give it up, if something else worked. Believe me, I am open to suggestions.....but I do politely resent Durbkat's accusation of abuse.



jesirose said:


> Have you read anything on puppy-proofing the house? It's like child proofing. Do you leave things laying around that you don't want your 18 mo old to have? Why does the puppy have access to so many "contraband" items?
> 
> First, remove all of those items. Give the puppy a few toys of his own. Whenever he chews on or plays with them, reward him (either click and treat or however you plan on training). If he does get ahold of something he can't have, remove it completely, and give him a good toy. There shouldn't be anything else around. Then reward him for even looking at the right toy. If he is chewing on the furniture or something spray some bitter apple on it.


My house is child proof and to be honest the things in the house that she chews are not thing I can readily remove.... ie furniture, cat beds, her own bed, the wrought iron fireplace blocker (this weighs almost 100lbs and keeps my kids out of the firpelace). I am definitely running out and getting the bitter apple today. I know I can use that on the furniture, fireplace and cat bed.

Now outside. Do I spray my trees with bitter apple? My roses? My cedar fence, my pant legs? Would that stuff work on the aforementioned? Do they sell in 55gal drums? LOL. I am willing to try.



jesirose said:


> We use California Naturals. You can find reviews of dog foods here: http://dogfoodanalysis.com/
> Looks like Royal Canine is a 2 star out of 6. One of the good ones a lot of people here use is Canidae. We are going to switch to it later, but for now I like the California Naturals because it was much better for Sadie's digestion than Blue Bufallo, which we tried first.


Thanks for the great link, that is awesome! Very useful. That Innova looks good huh?


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

So everyone that is basically imitating the momma dog by grabbing a pup by its neck is "abusing the pup"? Explain that to the momma dog there are different ways to discipline and if one listens to all the different ways to "abuse" a dog, I am surprised we even have dogs that well mannered, but not surprised that quite a few literaly run the household .....


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Outside she should be on a leash so she can't get to the fence and roses. As for her chewing on her bed and that sort of thing, that is when you will redirect to a toy and immediately praise her for looking at the toy. I would start by smearing something tasty on the toys, and put a towel under the x-pen, and put her in there with them. Teach her than these toys are fun because they taste like peanut butter or pumpkin, etc. Then give her treats for playing with those toys in the x-pen, when there are no other things to chew on. Make it like these toys are the BEST things ever and her playing with them is THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD.

Then when she goes for the table leg, bam, out comes the best toy ever. (Also don't put the bitter apple on the cat bed if the cats use it...they won't like it anymore than the dog will or we will. Go ahead and taste it if you want  - I did. I even put it on the backs of my hands to discourage biting sometimes.)

I think putting her into the crate if she does not go outside is great, that is what we did. After about 10 days, Sadie started running to the door when she had to go and she is still doing great. I think the most important thing is catching any accidents before they happen. That means she's either in the crate or you have your eyes on her 100%. Honestly I wouldn't have recommended a puppy when you have a young child, because it is like having two young children now. I would be worried about having time for myself. But anyway you have her now so just keep in mind that working hard at the training now WILL pay off in the end  

Remember, it's not going to happen overnight 


I don't think the scruff thing is abuse, but it just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. We all get frustrated and it would take just a little anger to accidentally grab that pup too hard because it hurt when it bit, or it pooped on your best rug. I'm not implying that anyone who does this would purposefully hurt the dog - but when you're handling an animal that is small, it's fragile and pulling its skin and hair as a reprimand would hurt. You could very easily pinch the dog or hurt it somehow accidentally and it could become afraid of the hand. We are not the momma dog and can't replicate how it carries the pup. 
I don't believe in spanking children either. There are better ways to discipline than physically. 



PS: durbkat, my username is jesirose. Not jeri..you keep referring to me on the forums as jerirose. Call me Jessica if you want.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Oh I'm so sorry Jessica. I must have typed it wrong one time and it stuck some how. I'll spell it right from now on.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Durb, you realize that Bulldogs are 60 pounds or so, right? They're definitely NOT small dogs. They're just kinda short. ;P


OP,
On the chewing- well, as far removed as it is, you DO have a gripping breed.  Mouthiness is part of the bargain. I would start working on controlling that.

FIrstly, I would figure out some way to confine her so that she's not got access to the furniture so easily. (Basically? If you aren't 100% focused on her, she's in an x-pen or a crate.) I'd stock it with good chews- sterilized bones (I don't like pig ears, they're gross, fatty, and don't last long), bullysticks, maybe a choo hoof. None of my dogs have ever liked nylabones, and Kongs are a special treat. Might try a Buster Cube too- my guys love those!This gives her a chance to get a taste for good chews and learn which ones she gets praised for chewing on. 

EVERY TIME you have her out and she mouths something you don't want her to (pant legs, furniture, trees), pick her up and put her in her exercise pen. With a dog who was more focused on people, you could use the squeak/clap/distract/replace method, but if you're not seeing success with that, it's time to make the rules a little more clear. You've got two linked problems here- the chewing and the mouthing- and she needs to learn that putting her mouth on ANYTHING that isn't hers, will get her sent to the Boring Place.  This really is a phase and it will pass to some extent- but you really DO need to nip it now or you'll end up with a dog who chews when bored for life. (I am looking at YOU, INDY-monster, corgi destroyer of worlds....) If you can set one x-pen up outside, you can do this there- but just one inside will work. 

Like the idea with the lawn chair and a book for pottying. I would actually make it a rule that if you go out on leash for a potty break, there is no playing going on. You sit or stand whatever but she gets ignored till she produces- THEN you have a play session (outside, ~2-5 minutes in duration- which she SHOULD be able to handle even once it gets to summer here in TX, at least in the mornings and evenings- if she can't handle that, talk to your vet, there's a medical problem.). If you are consistant with this, it'll help lots. Right now, she may have learned that pottying means you take her back inside and the fun outdoors time is over. It may help to take her out to potty one place and out to play in another (just front and back door can work) but I realize that's not always possible.

I think it's wonderful that you are spending so much time playing with your dog. But I think you'll have a dog who is a lot more pleasant to be around if you structure your time a little bit more so that she's got 'down time' in a place she can't get into trouble- you won't have to scold her and she'll learn to entertain herself in acceptable ways. Like kids, dogs really do need to learn that Mom (or Dad ) will not provide them something fun to do every time they whine "I'm BORED." 

Innova's an excellent food, although some dogs don't find it very palatable. I like Fromm's and Prairie Valley Naturals quite a bit too, although I actually feed Biljac (yes, not a great food, but it's hte only thing the blasted pickyboy will eat.) Royal Canin has a fair amount of corn in it, which can seriously rev your dog up. Corn contains a lot of sugar, and just like kids, can REALLY rev dogs up- and not in a good way.


Cait


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Durbkat said:


> Oh I'm so sorry Jessica. I must have typed it wrong one time and it stuck some how. I'll spell it right from now on.


No worries, and thanks.


Edit: Dogstar gave some great advice about the separate spots for potty and play, that is really important IMO. Plus then only a small part of the lawn turns brown


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## Pax (Dec 19, 2007)

I have nothing to add to the excellent advice offered, but would just like to mention how refreshing it is to read a thread where the OP asks for advice and then actually takes said advice graciously and with good humour.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> Durb, you realize that Bulldogs are 60 pounds or so, right? They're definitely NOT small dogs. They're just kinda short. ;P


Yes I realize they get kinda heavy but I would think their kidneys would be the size that would fit a dog of that height and length, not how much it weighs.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

you know- with all this, not one has mentioned what to do with the 18 month old...even if they do take alot of naps, there still is time to get into trouble when you take the pup out. I would suggest the book and java when little britches is asleep, but otherwise- take the kids with you and while the pup is in the pen doing its business, play with your kids- my 3 year old is getting darn good at Boche- ball and soccer. It wears them out, keeps you in shape and teaches good co-ordination while relaxing and stop focusing on the pup. And kids that have had that sort of exercise are much calmer around puppies  at least thats what I noticed. I just had to purchase a set of boche balls out of metal since the dogs liked to "participate"


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

nuggsgalore said:


> *About me:* 40 years old, stay at home dad with an 18-month-old son.
> Experience: Raised, enjoyed, and buried 6 dogs in my lifetime. 2 Pointers, 3 Labs, and a MinPin.
> Successfully house-trained, and field trained the pointers and the labs.


A Bull Dog is in a completely different field of perosnality/ training/ learning/ and concentration than the Lab, Pointer, or Min Pin. Labs and Pointers will usually do anything they can to please their human. They aren't hard headed breeds and they listen very well; even as puppies. (This in most cases and just based on the over all breed)




> *The Problem:* Potty training, destructive behavior, play-biting, refusing to obey, and possibly a severe learning disability. Can dogs get ADD?


Sometimes you would think that and I've gone through it with some of my dogs. When you've had dogs you've been able to train so sucsesfully and then you get another that is the complete opposite it can be very frustrating. But if you don't stop and you always fallow through it can happen; even with the most dopey dog.  You just have to work extra hard and spend more time.



> *The Set-up:*
> 
> 4000 sqft house with all hardwood and tile. Bedrooms, office, library, laundry room, garbage pantry, dining room, etc… all closed off. Dog only has access to Den, playroom, kitchen, and only because they are all interconnected.
> 
> ...


The very first thing I noticed was the drinking and I want to make one suggestion. Take all water up 3-4 hours before she goes to bed. I've done this with all of my puppies and they have slept through the night. Also depending on how big the crate is, you may put news paper down and see how she does through a night. 

I know people want to spoil their dogs when they're puppies, but in this situation I would limit the "very nice" things. The beds, toys, etc wait until she's old enough and wont chew up the really good toys. A puppy is just as happy with a card board box as they are with a $10-$20 plush toy. Just an idea. If she's chewing things up wait and give her a simple bed and cheap little toys. So if she chews them up it's not a HUGE deal.



> The problems in depth:
> 
> *Potty training.* Ok I know 3 month old puppies have accidents, but come on 6-7 per day. Conventional wisdom says that a puppy should be able to hold it for a number of hours equal to its age in months. So this little girl should be able to go three hours tops, and she can…at night.
> I crate her from about 11:00p to 6:00a. I get up with her twice per night once around 2am and once around 4am, then at 6:00am when my day starts. She has never had an accident in the crate.
> The trouble starts during the day. At 6 am I take her out for thirty minutes sometimes she pees sometimes not. If she pees I usually let her hang out with me in the kitchen while I make breakfast, if she refuses I put her in the x-pen. While the kids eat breakfast I take her out again 15-30 minutes. Nothing. Put her back in the x-pen and she pees on the floor. It repeats like this all day long. I spend most of my day outside. Yesterday, between the hours of 6am-11pm, I spent 7 solid hours outside and still cleaned up 6 accidents in the house. Sometimes she will eliminate outside, then we will play for about 15 minutes and return inside and she will pee or poop again on the floor.


When you got her how did you start with the potty training? Here is another suggestion. Start over as if she's just gotten home. It's a fresh day, a new start. Start by taking her out every 30-45 minutes. When she eats wait 10-15 minutes and take her out. If she's just woken up; take her out. If she's been playing really hard; take her out. 

Once she does good with the 30-45 minutes and you think she can hold it, move it up to 45-60 minutes and see how she does. And so one and so on. But things like when she's been playing, sleeping or just got done eating take her out. If she just got done eating don't let her play on the floor until she's gone out. 

I do this with all of the puppies I get. Last a 15 week old foster Bull Terrier/APBT and he's only had a couple accidents. And those were my fault because he didn't go out when he should have.



> I am home all day, I want her to enjoy the house, but more and more she is spending time in the x-pen (even though she still goes in it). You can’t crate a dog all day, but I can’t spend 10 hours a day outside waiting for her to go. I always use positive reinforcement and treats, but she really doesn’t seem to care. I have tried taking her out on a leash and she refuses to go while on it.


Are you using a regular nylon leash? 

If so let her get used to wearing it. If it gets dirty or she pees on it, wash it. Let her drag it around in the house while she's in the pen. Let her get used to wearing it then when it comes time to walk on it she'll be so used to it, it wont be a big deal. 

What part of the house is tile? If you're able to section it off maybe try that so you can be inside, but she isn't crated or outside. 



> *Destructive behavior.* I know puppies are chewing machines, but this dog only chews stuff I don’t want her to. She has plenty of toys, chew bones, etc… but she seeks of furniture, flowerbeds, grill covers, trees, roses, kids toys, kids arms and legs, fences, wrought iron gates, firewood, pant legs, dirt clods, her dog bed, the cat’s wicker basket. When she starts to chew these things, I clap my hands. She pauses then goes back to chewing. I then grab her by the scruff, tell her no, and move her to a new location and give her an appropriate toy. She ignores it and runs off to chew the next thing on the contraband list.


Grabbing by the scruff I admit I do that. It doesn't hurt them, but it desn't slove the problem either. So I don't agree with the abuse accusation, but seing as it's not working you need to move onto a new plan. 

Have you tried using a kong? You can find them almost any where and you can pack them with pretty much anything. You don't have to buy the fillings. I've used both peanut Butter and yougurt as the base and put treats in it. It could possible keep her very busy and not want to chew everything in the house. Like I said above, try giving her a different bed. It's still not ok to chew it up, but if she does happen to bite a whole in it, it's not a huge deal to get pissed about. 

Try getting her to come to you when she's chewing on "what ever it may be" by getting on the floor and making funny noises, messing around on the floor. Making her want to come to you and not you _making _her come to you. 

When she bites you simply tell her "No bite", give her a fun, then tell her good girl. It's needs to be more good and not as much "no!". If there is something you don't want chewed up take it up while she's in the house. 




> I am really at a loss. She doesn’t care for treats. Verbal and physical praise just makes her look at me like I’m stupid. She doesn’t seem to want to please me. I can’t get her to come to me across the yard even if I am rattling her food bag. She ignores "no" and swatting her only results in play biting. What am I doing wrong?


I woudn't say you're doing anything wrong. It's just not working for her. You're training is going to have to change up a big to get her to grow. 

A few things I read and wanted to reply to.

I would not consider a 40-50 pound dog a small dog..but that's just me.

And I would *not *consider Canidea a much better food than Royal Canin. The ingredients are not that different, but again that is just my opinion. For as much as Canidae is I would look into more options. Solid Gold, Natural Balance, wellness, Orijen, Timberwolf, Taste of the Wild..and many more. Some of which you can find at Petstores and they are still good foods. 

When looking for a good food look at the first five ingredients. At least one of the first three should be a whole meat not a meal. 

Here is a list of foods ranking 1-6 stars
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

First of all, thank you guys and gals for taking the time. Unfortunately, I just had the dog put down. Relax. I am just kidding. I know bad joke. Actually I have been at the pet store picking up some the items that were recommended and I have been rearranging the backyard a little. Here is a little update. 

Today, thanks to you all, we made progress. Now it wasn't huge progress but it was a little something. She has started to "go" while leashed. This is hugely important to me. Now I can keep her out there and after she goes we play for awhile. 

We still had 4 accidents in the pen, but at least they were all pee...no poo.

Had one accident in front of the door, before we could get it opened. 

The Bitter Apple worked on the furniture, but not on the wrought iron. She chews it even with the bad taste. I really worry she is going to break a tooth on that one.

The pant leg thing has to stop. Today she drew blood on my leg when she missed the pants. Everything inside of me was screaming to punt kick her little wrinkled butt over the fence into the neighbors yard....then I remembered he always wears shorts.

Anyway a little progress is better than no progress. I was thinking about continuing to update this thread as we discovered or conquered any problems. It may prove useful to another bulldog owner. If that is uncool, or against the forum rules....let me know and I will let the thread die. 

I went ahead and addressed a few of your points below. Thanks.



jesirose said:


> I would start by smearing something tasty on the toys, and put a towel under the x-pen, and put her in there with them.


Jessica, I think this is genius. I immediately tried it with some peanut butter. Unfortunately, she licked at the PB and then went back to chewing her bed. She really didn't seem to like it that much. I think this a great idea though, I just have to find the flavor that "gets her wrinkles going".



jesirose said:


> Honestly I wouldn't have recommended a puppy when you have a young child, because it is like having two young children now. I would be worried about having time for myself.


Oh I so hear you. You are absolutely on target there. We should have timed it better. We were on a two year waiting list to get the pick of this litter. My son just kinda showed up. Can't really send either back. One won't fit and the other we have grown kinda attached to.LOL.

*Dogstar:*

So much great advice it is impossible to quote and highlight my favorite without making this post 10 feet long. Thank you. The boring place is working a little, at least today.




Pax said:


> I have nothing to add to the excellent advice offered, but would just like to mention how refreshing it is to read a thread where the OP asks for advice and then actually takes said advice graciously and with good humour.


What you mean this is not how it is supposed to work? LOL. Are you telling me people come in her asking for help then get rude about the advice? Surely you jest. I really do appreciate the help and I want to fix these problems so what is the harm in trying, right? *BTW what is an OP?*



TeddieXRuxpin said:


> When you've had dogs you've been able to train so sucsesfully and then you get another that is the complete opposite it can be very frustrating. But if you don't stop and you always fallow through it can happen; even with the most dopey dog.  You just have to work extra hard and spend more time.


Word.



TeddieXRuxpin said:


> The very first thing I noticed was the drinking and I want to make one suggestion. Take all water up 3-4 hours before she goes to bed....
> 
> I woudn't say you're doing anything wrong. It's just not working for her. You're training is going to have to change up a big to get her to grow.


I will try that tonight. 

That's why I am here, looking and getting some great help. 

Also you had a plethora of great suggestions in that response. Thanks, I will digest them as I go.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

nuggsgalore said:


> First of all, thank you guys and gals for taking the time. Unfortunately, I just had the dog put down. Relax. I am just kidding. I know bad joke. Actually I have been at the pet store picking up some the items that were recommended and I have been rearranging the backyard a little. Here is a little update.
> 
> Today, thanks to you all, we made progress. Now it wasn't huge progress but it was a little something. She has started to "go" while leashed. This is hugely important to me. Now I can keep her out there and after she goes we play for awhile.


Hey anything is better than nothing! 



> What you mean this is not how it is supposed to work? LOL. Are you telling me people come in her asking for help then get rude about the advice? Surely you jest. I really do appreciate the help and I want to fix these problems so what is the harm in trying, right? *BTW what is an OP?*


You would be surprised at how many people who don't get the answer they want; get upset. When you ask a question you have to be able to take anything that comes flying at you, even if it's a dumb response. You're not going to love everything that people say, but that's how it goes on a forum. To many people don't understand that. 

An OP is "original poster" you. 

Take care and I can't wait to hear how things go!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Sadie has no interest in peanut butter, but loves raw pumpkin from a can. Not pie filling, the ingredients should just be "pumpkin". Another good treat is laughing cow cheese wedges (this is what I use for giving them pills, cats and dogs wolf it down.)

When she bites your legs or pants, what do you do?

In the room where the wrought iron is, can you tether her leash to something so she can't go to the iron? For example, in our living room Sadie is always attached to the coffee table whenever the cats come in, so she can't chase them. (Once she is trained to find a toy when the cats come in instead of chasing them, she'll be off the leash)

OP = Original Poster. Useful for when you forget the username or gender and don't want to scroll back and find it


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Yea some people get down right nasty if you ask a question, such as what health test does the breeder do and what titles and they get all defensive about it. Or if we simply tell them that there way is ineffective they go nuts.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I'd just like to say that it sounds as if you are doing a wonderful job!

Already doing a lot of the right things on your own and a good head on your shoulders to be open to other ideas for the things that aren't working.

A few short notes, that may have already been mentioned (at least I'll try to keep it short, when you say your going to keep it short those are usually the longest... LOL)

- reward, reward, reward for outside poop/pee. Now I see that you play with her after she goes outside for 15 minutes, but we all know she doesn't know after 14 minutes of getting to play what she's being "allowed" to play for... Reward IMMEDIATELY after she goes. I'm not sure if she's an excited pee'er, but some dogs benefit from adding the cue word in praise WHILE they are going. So as she seems to be finishing peeing: "Good pee pee!", while your saying this, your heading towards her with a high value reward. Something FANTASTIC that she ONLY gets when she goes to the bathroom outside.

We're hoping that your ADD pup will link the FANTASTIC treat with the word "pee pee". Pee pee is awesome, so is poo poo. With some consistency, she should link the word and happy feeling of "pee pee/poo poo" with actually going pee pee/poo poo. 

This sounds awful lame I know, but I went through a heck of a time trying to housebreak Hades, who was taken away from his mother much too soon, apparently this is somewhat common. Even to this day, and he's almost three, if he hears "pee pee/poo poo" the dog goes nutz running for A door, to go outside and dribble or shoot off a nugget so he can run back inside and get praised.. sometimes I think he STILL thinks he's going to get a treat everytime because we engrained "pee pee/poo poo outside" so well.. ROFL!

- I don't remember reading this in any of your posts, but if you had posted it I apologize for repeating: 

Accidents in the house. I would verbally "correct" or at least let the dog know that your displeased. Than take her outside for 10 minutes. If you can catch her in the act, try to disrupt her to get her outside, if one dribble of pee, or even a toot happens outside, REWARD! Even if there's still a huge puddle in the house that you have to clean up, she did SOMETHING outside. Something is better than nothing right 

- Chewing... equals tethering to me. Sorry, I know people hate it when the word comes out, but tethering is a fantastic way of doing all kinds of things. Being the main resource provider for your dog, showing the dog that you are the leader, always being able to correct for destructive behaviours, being on top of your dogs signals to go to the bathroom if you don't know them already, never being surprised with accidents because the dog is always with you.. and the list goes on.

Since you have an ex-pen, I think tethering would work out in your situation. If she can't be tethered to you she goes into her crate/ex-pen. Otherwise she is tied to your belt loop. Now when she's tied to your belt loop, you don't have to always pay attention to her, she is your shadow. I know we always want to be hugging puppies, but sometimes being somewhat aloof to them can be beneficial.

Your sitting at the computer, she's lying down beside with a bone, or relaxing. She chews on something, you can give a little tug on the leash, tell her to cut it out then go back to work. If for FIVE seconds, she doesn't chew on whatever, you silently reach down and pop a treat into her mouth.

Having a fanny pack full of cut up treats will be handy 

I see a lot of "bad behaviours" listed. But what do you do to reward and REINFORCE the good? Food is the easiest way to let your dog know that they are doing something right. Especially if you hold off on the "goods", only for great behaviours, like pooping outside.

So we all know puppies do all kinds of bad stuff, but try focusing on the good as well. If she's food motivated her curiousity may be perked by all of the small goodies being given to her, and she may want to figure out what exactly she's doing so she can get more!

I could go on all day, and it would probably just end up be mumbling, so again, it sounds as though you are already do a bang-up job!

Keep your head up and good luck!


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Now that everything has been stated, lets see some pictures!  We love puppy pictures.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

jesirose said:


> When she bites your legs or pants, what do you do?


Ok I know I'm going to get jumped on for this, but I am going to be honest.

If she gets skin and hurts me, like she did today...I involuntary scream like a little b***h then I reach down and pop her on the head. She lets instantly. If she just gets pants, I yell "no" and then physically remove her from my pant leg. Which with a lockjaw is not an easy task. I usually say "let go" (the same thing I say when I try to get her to drop a ball.). Afterward I quit playing and she usually runs off to chew a fence or something.LOL.



jesirose said:


> In the room where the wrought iron is, can you tether her leash to something so she can't go to the iron?


Well the x-pen is in that room. Why would I tether her if I could just put her in the pen?


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

nuggsgalore said:


> Ok I know I'm going to get jumped on for this, but I am going to be honest.
> 
> If she gets skin and hurts me, like she did today...I involuntary scream like a little b***h then I reach down and pop her on the head. She lets instantly. If she just gets pants, I yell "no" and then physically remove her from my pant leg. Which with a lockjaw is not an easy task. I usually say "let go" (the same thing I say when I try to get her to drop a ball.). Afterward I quit playing and she usually runs off to chew a fence or something.LOL.
> 
> ...


Try "drop it" with the ball and "leave it" when it comes to her bed, your leg etc. 

I won't touch the popping of the head. Brace yourself and old onto something near by, the storm is a coming. 

Also no dog has locking jaws. They just have a *very* good grip.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

nuggsgalore said:


> Ok I know I'm going to get jumped on for this, but I am going to be honest.
> 
> If she gets skin and hurts me, like she did today...I involuntary scream like a little b***h then I reach down and pop her on the head. She lets instantly. If she just gets pants, I yell "no" and then physically remove her from my pant leg. Which with a lockjaw is not an easy task. I usually say "let go" (the same thing I say when I try to get her to drop a ball.). Afterward I quit playing and she usually runs off to chew a fence or something.LOL.
> 
> ...


When it's something like your pants, you have to completely remove the reward. It would seem she enjoys you prying her jaw off of your pants. So if you are patient enough and it doesn't hurt, I'd just stand there. Believe me, I have done it. Sadie started trying to play with my pants leg as I walked several times. So I stood still and she got bored with it. A non moving cloth item isn't that much fun anymore. She shouldn't be able to run off and play with other things that are bad, she should be on the leash with you outside so she can't get to those things for now.

You could also try the cold water spray for biting. When you see her lunging for your legs, shoot a spray of cold water at her. Then hide the bottle, the water didn't come from YOU, it came because she was about to bite you. You can get little water bottles at hardware stores or grocery stores, or use a small water pistol. It doesn't hurt them at all so it's a good deterrent. 

When you're saying "let go", and she doesn't, that means she doesn't know the command yet. Unless you are actively training the cue, don't use it! You'll desensitize her to it. 

As for the room with the iron and the pet - Why is she out of the pen then?  I mean, if it's so you can play with her out of it, then put the leash on her for play so she can't get to the iron item. Otherwise how is she getting to it? If you don't want to use the leash, then put her in the pen. Eventually the biting and everything will pass, and these issues will get smaller and you can introduce her to those items and train her not to chew them, but now it sounds like you just have too much going on to deal with that stuff.

I don't remember, are you guys going to a class?


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## sheplovr (Aug 27, 2006)

Let me tell you I had an English Bulldog female. She was spayed at 3 months old. Lifespan is 8 yrs, she lived near 11, had to put her down due to age, lungs were filling up and heart getting weak, had to carry her to potty as she would NOT go inside. Bless her Heart!

My husband bought her because he loved the breed, I am a German Shepherd lover. Of course I had to train, feed and exercise her. The breed is NOT supid, no dog is on earth! Some are just a little bit harder and longer to train than other breeds, does not mean they are stupid by any means. She was smart, never had an accident in the house sick as she got before I put her down. She was a super eater, loved treats, knew when I said: Are you ready to eat Brita? 

Do not let anybody tell you a dog is stupid, a dog or puppy is only as good of an adult as the owner raised and trained it. Sorry to be blunt but this angers me that some dogs might take some extra time in training, learning, etc. Be patience, take her out every 2 hours till she learns to tell you, exit same door always to same area. Put a ring of old keys on door handle or bells, mine love to hit them for fun. But, it does not take long for them to learn to rap them, she would need them on a longer device, like leather boot shoe strings you could use and be safe. If I could get photobucket to work just once in a great while I could of posted a few photos of her, but that site sucks big time.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> And I would *not *consider Canidea a much better food than Royal Canin. The ingredients are not that different, but again that is just my opinion. For as much as Canidae is I would look into more options. Solid Gold, Natural Balance, wellness, Orijen, Timberwolf, Taste of the Wild..and many more. Some of which you can find at Petstores and they are still good foods.


Sorry, I know this has not much to do with the OP's issues, but I was just wondering about your opinion on Canidae vs Royal Canin. The first 6 ingredients of Royal Canin Medium Dog formula are: {Chicken meal, brown rice, rice, oatmeal, chicken fat, corn gluten meal}. I'm not liking the high grain content and the corn gluten meal. The first 6 ingredients of Canidae ALS are: {Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat}. Seems like the meat content is a lot higher, and no weird grain fractions. Plus, Canidae is one of the least expensive decent dog foods I can find, way cheaper than Natural Balance or Solid Gold. Help me out here! If Canidae isn't great, I don't know what to do.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Willowy - Canidae is known for being a great food for the price. I wouldn't worry about switching foods if your dogs does well on it.

IMO, Royal Canin is a middle of the road food, but it's a heck of a lot better than Iams, Purina, Pedigree, Ole'Roy, Kibbles and Bits... and the list could go on!  LOL No matter what you feed, there is always going to be something new and better out there. I dont' blame those who can't find any good reason to pay $80 for a bag of dog food.

Pants grabbing... "EHT!"

Startling, loud, high pitched sounds will scare the crap out of your puppy and she'll stop doing what she was doing and look at you like your an alien. Make sure you don't hoot and holler too much and make it a game.

Screech, "OUCH!"

And be sure to offer something else for her to chew on.

If you do tether her, you can gently tug on her leash, reward if she doesn't chew on your pants


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I agree about Canidae, I actually went out and bought it today so I could start switching Sadie. It was $40.99 for 40 lbs. Cheaper than my rat and cat food!!! Similarly, the California Naturals was $45.99 for only 33 lbs! 

I liked the CN for the very small ingredient list, but since Canidae gets such good reviews and it's cheaper, I wanted to switch.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks for the Canidae reinforcement. I'm happy with the ingredients and how my dogs do on it, I was just wondering why someone would say that it's no better than Royal Canin. 

I have noticed that Royal Canin is very expensive, so I don't think price is a problem in this instance. Just a case of the breeder recommending a food that isn't the best, although much better than most dog foods out there. You could do better for the price. I like to get what I pay for, and not pay too much for a mediocre product. Like Beneful. I can't believe how much they charge for it, and the ingredient list is virtually identical to regular Dog Chow!!! If you're going to spend that much on dog food, you should at least get a decent product for your dollars. Shows what you can do with slick packaging and a lot of advertising.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Durbkat said:


> Or if we simply tell them that there way is ineffective they go nuts.


Well I, for one, appreciate the cool heads and everyone's willingness to spend their day answering questions they have probably already answered a million times before...for a stranger.

I don't have an ego to nurse. Am I frustrated? You bet. But I am intelligent enough to realize that my methods are ineffective, at least with this dog, because I was not getting the results I desired.

That's not to say my methods are bad. I took two training classes with my MinPin and several Field Training classes with my Labs and Pointers. Much of my original methods I got from those classes. They just don't seem to be working on this gal, but hey the miracle of the internet allows me to get suggestions from a variety of people without having to be that creepy guy hanging out at the dog park taking notes. LOL

Here is a pic for you Durbkat












Alpha said:


> ...Since you have an ex-pen, I think tethering would work out in your situation. If she can't be tethered to you she goes into her crate/ex-pen. Otherwise she is tied to your belt loop. Now when she's tied to your belt loop, you don't have to always pay attention to her, she is your shadow. I know we always want to be hugging puppies, but sometimes being somewhat aloof to them can be beneficial.


Ahhh OK. I get it now. I thought tethering meant tying the dog up outside and leaving it there. I am so not going for that. I didn't realize everyone meant tying the dog to ME. Duh. That is actually a pretty good idea. I will have to get a longer lead of course, but I can see the benefit. 

Now this little ball of trouble in not going to pants me is she. I can see it now. I answer the door and she bolts dragging my chinos around my ankles. LOL.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Aww, she's cute! 

I can tell your a member that will stick around who can take advice and not get hot headed about it. You can tell alot about how long a member will stay by how they react to an answer they don't want to hear.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I gotta say I am not usually a fan of bulldogs in general, I prefer nordic dogs (duh) but she is a cutie for sure!


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

nuggsgalore said:


> I appreciate your suggestions though. I will look into bully sticks.


They can be found at Petco, or here.....
http://www.bestbullysticks.com/


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

*Just a quick update and some more questions*

I didn't want to post earlier for fear of jinxing the day, but wow we had a good day today. Only 2 accidents in the house, very little chewing, and only 3 hours outside. (and one of those hours was just play-time)

Taking her out on the leash and playing after works great, but she refuses to poop while on the leash. So as a compromise, I keep her on the leash until she pees then let her go. She plays a awhile and sneaks off away from everybody to poop. I can live with that.

I also tethered her to my belt for awhile this morning. You folks are some sneaky little cusses because after about 20 minutes I figured out that tethering a dog to you is NOT training the dog, but training the OWNER to watch her more LOL. Very sneaky! Needless to say it didn't work well. I am on the move a lot and bulldogs like to lay down . It ended up being a giant tug of war on whether we were going to put away the dishes or cool our belly on the tile.

I bought a clicker, but here's the thing. She is petrified of the clicking. The first time I tried it she bolted for her crate and refuse to come out. So her is my question:

*Can you reverse click train a dog? In other words click it when she is doing something wrong. *

I didn't try it, because I wanted a little advice here first. But I am betting that if she were latched on to my pants and I clicked this little bugger, she would let go. Let me know what you think. 

Also, I still have not made a decision on the food so I cut her back 150 grams of kibble and replace it with the same weight in steak. You think that is ok for now or is that too much?

BTW the cats are tormenting her by running up to her, then getting her to chase them, then jumping over the babygate and watching the dog slam head first into it. Over and over and over and over again. I don't know if you call that stupid, but it's not real smart. LOL.


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

Your dog is just precious.

I really have nothing to add to this discussion - great advice all the way around. I only came on to say that I think the OP is one of the most pleasant people to post in a long time and takes advice like a champ.  I have really enjoyed reading your posts. I love your attitude and your willingness to learn, as well as your ability to make fun of yourself and to even laugh about your situation. Bless your heart. We gotta see the humor in these things, otherwise none of us could get through the day, especially when training puppies!

Hang in there - if you're consistent (and occasionally creative), your efforts and your positive attitude WILL pay off!


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

You really can't 'reverse' clicker train a dog- you'll desensitize her to the noise.  ALthough some things work on that hteory- penny cans, throw chains, squirt bottles- it's just not very effective. 

What I would do is cover the clicker in a sock and then put it in your pocket- click it through the sock and from within your pocket and it'll be a LOT softer. Remember to pair the click with REALLY GOOD treats when you're charging the clicker the first time- and she'll figure out that click = good stuff RIGHT quick.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

They also make electronic clickers that make quieter sounds like a chirp or bell.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> Experience: Raised, enjoyed, and buried 6 dogs in my lifetime. 2 Pointers, 3 Labs, and a MinPin.
> Successfully house-trained, and field trained the pointers and the labs.


I think you're doing a great job, and can understand your frustration. A Bulldog is a whole 'nuther ball game, so to speak, than the dogs you've had before! Take a deep breath and relax! She WILL learn; just be patient, persistent, and consistent! 






> So everyone that is basically imitating the momma dog by grabbing a pup by its neck is "abusing the pup"?


Grabbing a pup by the neck may not be actual abuse, but it IS confrontational, and not an option for an optimal result when teaching an untrained puppy. This is a baby, a 3-month old puppy who is not yet housetrained, so a correction like this can actually backfire (and even damage the relationship in some cases). If this was an adult dog who knew better, ok, _maybe_. I wouldn't do it, but I can understand why someone would, in the case of an adult who knew better. Being consistent, persistent, and patient provides a much better environment in which to learn, without fear. 



> Explain that to the momma dog


A mama dog is a far cry from a human, who does not have the physiology, the timing, or anything else even remotely similar to a mama dog correcting her young. 

t


> here are different ways to discipline and if one listens to all the different ways to "abuse" a dog, I am surprised we even have dogs that well mannered, but not surprised that quite a few literaly run the household ....


I don't raise my voice, much less a hand, to my dogs, all of whom have been taught house manners and boundaries without (negative) emotion or force. They are beautifully behaved, and when in doubt, they look to me for guidance. All it takes is an eh eh, or a raised eyebrow to stop unwanted behavior. And when I _really_ need their attention, I whisper.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Two Labs Mom said:


> Your dog is just precious.
> 
> I really have nothing to add to this discussion - great advice all the way around. I only came on to say that I think the OP is one of the most pleasant people to post in a long time and takes advice like a champ.  I have really enjoyed reading your posts. I love your attitude and your willingness to learn, as well as your ability to make fun of yourself and to even laugh about your situation. Bless your heart. We gotta see the humor in these things, otherwise none of us could get through the day, especially when training puppies!
> 
> Hang in there - if you're consistent (and occasionally creative), your efforts and your positive attitude WILL pay off!


Two Labs Mom
100% agree, OP's trying hard.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Woo Hoo! Went to bed at 11p didn't get up until 6a. She held it all night. I got so much sleep, I could run a marathon LOL. 




Dogstar said:


> You really can't 'reverse' clicker train a dog- you'll desensitize her to the noise.  ALthough some things work on that hteory- penny cans, throw chains, squirt bottles- it's just not very effective.
> 
> What I would do is cover the clicker in a sock and then put it in your pocket- click it through the sock and from within your pocket and it'll be a LOT softer. Remember to pair the click with REALLY GOOD treats when you're charging the clicker the first time- and she'll figure out that click = good stuff RIGHT quick.


Gottcha. The sock thing is working; at least she doesn't run away. It is muffled enough that she just cocks her head like "you hear something". I guess it will take awhile.

Ya I tried the squirt bottle for the chewing thing, it worked for a day or two then she just started opening her mouth and getting a drink. I see what you are saying.

Two Labs Mom & wvasko....stop...you are going to make my bald spot blush.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Aim for her butt  My trainer says you can aim for their eyes - it's just water so it's not going to hurt, but I have found my cats and dogs hate the spray at their butt more.


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## sparkybeagle (Jul 29, 2007)

youv'e gotten a ton of really great advice... I don't have experience with bulldogs but I do have experience with a bullheaded beagle who was a pants/shirt biter. He would litterally hang from the back of my 5yr olds t- shirt. he did seem to outgrow it after a month or so, with a firm AH,AH every time he did it. 

He would nip & gnaw on our hands as well (as I suspect all puppies do) we responded with a loud OWWW, he now has great bite inhibition. 

He is still a big chewer and while we don't have any wrought iron, he would probably chew that as well. I found bully sticks to be our savior during teething time. They were just the consistancy he was looking for (somwhat like my coffee table). Bitter apple helped as well.

Good luck, she'a adorable.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

poodleholic- I dont raise my hand to my dogs either unless for training when I get a abused dog in. My pups all listen and are well behaved, but on abused dogs I raise my hand, yell and then pet to re-wire their brain that this is not a threat, but a pet. Its sad when they come and cower and whimper when I start out, but beautiful when they realize they get TLC and good attention with that. It takes a little time, but they all come around. Same for hitting with object- we dont do that here, but condition the dogs that it will not hurt them anymore. I do the same with our horses- whip, stick, throwing balls- our animals believe they are all trophies and will take them any given chance to carry them around- thats why we use them mainly- otherwise its to extend our arms and "give direction", but not fear


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Wow rough night. She was up all night yelping in the crate. That was a first. I have no idea what was different about last night. I took the water up after 8p like some suggested and every time she went out she was looking for something to drink. Maybe she was thirsty last night.

She did the strangest thing this morning. In her x-pen she straddled her water dish (that was full) and urinated in it. I'm not kidding, I have never seen anything like it.

She got no sleep last night, I got no sleep, and the baby got no sleep. I have a feeling today is going to be a day that tries men's soul.


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

So how was today?


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Two Labs Mom said:


> So how was today?


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

nuggsgalore said:


>


Oh. Sorry I asked. LOL


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Two Labs Mom said:


> Oh. Sorry I asked. LOL


LOL. Actually Zuzu, the dog, was pretty good today. I thought it was going to be worse. She still had a couple accidents, but she slept a lot today. She was exhausted from throwing a fit all night.

My son on the other hand, was in rare form.

Zuzu did bite the crap out of me. I know it was an accident, but it was right between the fingers and drew serious blood. I was sitting on the floor taking to my daughter while rolling the ball for Zuzu. She came back without the ball and jumped on my hand wanting to play.

I am also switching her to Innova slowly. She seems to like it.


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## Two Labs Mom (Apr 10, 2008)

nuggsgalore said:


> My son on the other hand, was in rare form.


LOL In my house, if it isn't the dogs making you nuts, it's the kids. 

Any luck yet? BTW, if you've never tried your hand as a humor writer, I think you might have a nice career ahead of you.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

Two Labs Mom said:


> LOL In my house, if it isn't the dogs making you nuts, it's the kids.
> 
> Any luck yet? BTW, if you've never tried your hand as a humor writer, I think you might have a nice career ahead of you.


You have a good eye, thank you. I do some humor writing, but it doesn't pay as well as other word wrangling. I have actually noticed the more boring the piece...the more it pays. Go figure.

OK update on the Zuzu front. Potty training is progressing, albeit slowly. I have discovered a wonderful new product for housebreaking. It is called *Crown Royal*. It doesn't really stop the dog from whizzing on your floor, but it doesn't peeve you as much when it happens. I highly recommend it to any new puppy owners, and parents for that matter. 

Moving her over to the Innova is helping in the poo trenches. On the Royal Cannin she was creating lawn pies about every 2 hours. With only 25% Innova in the mix, bowel movements have reduced to 3-4 per day...usually coinciding with a feeding. Now I know this could just be her getting older and learning to control her bowels more, but I think some of it is the reduction in the fillers and other crap. Pun intended.

Clicker training is kinda working. She no longer runs from the click, she assumes all clicks means she is going to get a treat. Which is good. There are a few things I discovered about clicker training that I thought I would pass along. One click means...good job...here comes a treat. Two clicks means.... come here quickly. Three clicks means...the broom must die. I haven't figured out this last one but it must be Bulldog Morse Code for seek out the broom and make it pay!

All in all, things are progressing....and that is good news. We still have not conquered all the problems from my original post, but we are getting there. 
Thanks for still reading.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

That is actually not how you should do clicker training. It should always be one click, and the click isn't a command or cue, it's a marker. The click happens after the behavior, not to cue it. 

And what IS Crown Royal?


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

jesirose said:


> That is actually not how you should do clicker training. It should always be one click, and the click isn't a command or cue, it's a marker. The click happens after the behavior, not to cue it.
> 
> And what IS Crown Royal?


Ahhh. Ok maybe I should just stop with the clicker until I get a good book on it. Thanks.

The crown royal was a joke, it is a Whisky. Here is the Wiki for it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Royal


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

What you do with the clicker is give a command and when the dog complies you click the clicker and give her a treat. It's a mark for a good behavior. The trainer at obedience class said a clicker is best but you can also just say "YES!" when the command is preformed.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Crown Royale (with the e ) is also a really stinky (smells like cheap perfume) dog grooming product brand.  A lot of show people use it.


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## donaldlbr (Nov 18, 2014)

Each Bulldog is different we have two from the same litter. We got the female at 9 weeks and she is stupid and stubborn and we got her brother at 9 months. He is housebroken for the most part and has had only two accidents in the thee months that we have had him. Her on the other hand just refuses to do her business outside most of the time. She usually just goes out and lies down. We will wait ten minutes or so and back to the crate she goes. We do take her out numerous times during the day and most of the time the same results nothing. She used to poop in her crate every night even after taking her out before going to bed. I have recently started feeding her in the crate and most of the time she now sleeps in the same crate as the other and no accidents in about two months. But I tell you if we had gotten him first and he is typical bulldog, lazy and stubborn but when I raise my voice he listens and does what he is suppose to do. Her on the other hand does not even know she is a bullie. She is lightening on four feet. Runs through the house and chases her brother to the point were we have to stop because they are breathing so hard. We were told all females are like that.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

donaldlbr said:


> Each Bulldog is different we have two from the same litter. We got the female at 9 weeks and she is stupid and stubborn and we got her brother at 9 months. He is housebroken for the most part and has had only two accidents in the thee months that we have had him. Her on the other hand just refuses to do her business outside most of the time. She usually just goes out and lies down. We will wait ten minutes or so and back to the crate she goes. We do take her out numerous times during the day and most of the time the same results nothing. She used to poop in her crate every night even after taking her out before going to bed. I have recently started feeding her in the crate and most of the time she now sleeps in the same crate as the other and no accidents in about two months. But I tell you if we had gotten him first and he is typical bulldog, lazy and stubborn but when I raise my voice he listens and does what he is suppose to do. Her on the other hand does not even know she is a bullie. She is lightening on four feet. Runs through the house and chases her brother to the point were we have to stop because they are breathing so hard. We were told all females are like that.


FYI - this thread is 6 years old. 

Also, bulldogs are not "stupid" - stubborn yes, but not stupid.


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## donaldlbr (Nov 18, 2014)

I guess I forgot to look at the dates, but, I have to disagree. Just as there are stupid collies, shepherds etc the are stupid bulldogs. I have a AKC collie male that was short on brain matter. He would walk into trees, walls etc and his vision was checked and there was nothing wrong. He would get lost in the backyard if snow covered the path that he used to go and do his business. I would have to go out and bring him into the house. there are intelligent dogs and there are those that some would consider stupid A Bulldog is in the top 10 and number three in that list of the most stupid dogs in the world. Do not get me wrong though I love both our bullies, but the male is so much different it is like two different breeds of dogs.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

BostonBullMama said:


> FYI - this thread is 6 years old.
> 
> Also, bulldogs are not "stupid" - stubborn yes, but not stupid.


Agreed, and the OP has not been active in about that time too. donaldlbr, if you would like to continue to discuss bulldogs, it would be best if you started a new thread.


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