# Should I be worried about rabies?



## silencelikeacancergrows (Apr 11, 2011)

The place where I work allows people to bring dogs to the office. One of my co-workers brings in a nine-week-old miniature Schnauzer puppy which is still in the process of being vaccinated (it's had its first round of shots). Like all puppies at this age, she's a bit mouthy and energetic, but due to her small size, her teeth and claws almost never break anyone's skin.

I was playing with her a few days ago and noticed that she had, indeed, managed to just barely break the skin on my forearm. I'm not sure if it was with her claws or her teeth. I told the owner of the dog and he assured me that everything was fine. He showed me several cuts that the dog had given to him and claimed that the puppy also gave his girlfriend several cuts. Today, he told me that, just this morning, he took the puppy to a veterinarian and that the vet told him that the puppy didn't have rabies.

So should I be worried? Should I see my doctor?


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

You can see your doctor if you want to, but all they will do is get the puppy put in the shelter/pound on a 10 day bite hold to see if it shows symptoms of rabies (which is soooo unlikely). If it were to have rabies, you would then begin rabies treatments... but I can almost guarantee you it doesn't have rabies. Almost. The chances of a 9 week old puppy having been bit by another rabid animal (skunk, fox ect) is so, so slim. All Puppies bite. I really think you are worrying too much.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If the puppy dies mysteriously in the next 10 days, worry. Otherwise, don't .


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## silencelikeacancergrows (Apr 11, 2011)

Willowy said:


> If the puppy dies mysteriously in the next 10 days, worry. Otherwise, don't .


Doesn't the dog need to be put into a special quarantine?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Do you have reason to believe the dog has rabies? Really, rabies in dogs is extremely rare in the U.S. Even rarer in puppies, particularly puppies from decent breeders (farm puppies. . .a bit higher). There is no reason to quarantine the pup. 

FWIW, my nephew was nipped by a puppy last year. My brother panicked and called the cops, but they just told the owners to let them know if the pup died in the next 10 days. They didn't think quarantine was necessary.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

silencelikeacancergrows said:


> Doesn't the dog need to be put into a special quarantine?


Puppies bite and scratch. It's the nature of the unschooled beast. If you report this puppy it will then have a bite record - for behaving like a normal, untrained puppy. If you are going to worry about this, I suggest you may not want to play with puppies. Because they WILL make you bleed occasionally. If I worried every time I got a scratch (usually from toenails) my hair would be greyer than it is.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I should also point out that IF the pup did have rabies, just being licked could transfer the virus to you. So it's not like breaking the skin is any kind of magical rabies thing. . .any exposure to the blood or saliva of a rabid animal would be dangerous.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I should also point out that IF the pup did have rabies, just being licked could transfer the virus to you. So it's not like breaking the skin is any kind of magical rabies thing. . .any exposure to the blood or saliva of a rabid animal would be dangerous.


This is actually a common misconception. Rabies is only transmitted through the saliva of an infected animal, and only if that saliva gets into your PNS (Peripheral Nervous System). Unbroken skin provides an effective barrier to the virus, so usually the only possible transmission scenario is from a bite that breaks skin as a rabid animal is unlikely to lick your wounds. Supposedly you could also become affected if a rabid animal licked your mouth or nose region though. There's also some thought that especially concentrated levels of the virus in the air (really I'm only talking about an infected bat colony in a cave) could be transmitted through your nose or mouth, but this hasn't really been proven.

Either way, that puppy does not have rabies. I am 99% sure of this -- 100% if you live in an urban environment. Rabies in domesticated dog populations has been virtually eradicated in the US. I would only worry if you knew that dog had been free roaming outdoors without supervision in an area where other possible carriers have been known to live, like raccoons, skunks, bats, etc. 

There is really no reason to put a 9 week old puppy on bite quarantine. I can just imagine the damage that 10-day isolation at this age would do to it long term. I would suggest your friend work on bite inhibition, though.

Just to reiterate, you cannot contract rabies from being scratched by an infected animal. Saliva is the mode of transmission.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CricketLoops said:


> This is actually a common misconception. Rabies is only transmitted through the saliva of an infected animal, and only if that saliva gets into your PNS (Peripheral Nervous System). *Unbroken* skin provides an effective barrier to the virus


I don't know about you, but the skin on my hands is almost never unbroken. Scratches, paper cuts, torn cuticles, dry skin cracks, etc. Granted, the work I do is particularly hard on the hands, but I think most people have some kind of broken skin going on at any given time. And, if the rabid animal licked your nose or mouth or other mucus membrane, that would also be a transmission possibility. Probably not a high possibility, but the health department would make you get shots anyway. 

There was a rabid puppy in a trailer park (it was a farm puppy--the litter had been attacked by a skunk) here a few years ago, and they made everybody who had touched the puppy get shots (including every kid in the trailer court), even though the puppy never broke skin on any of them. It died mysteriously and they tested it---that was the only way they knew it was rabid. I doubt anybody would have actually gotten rabies from that pup, but the health department isn't going to take chances.

Anyway, as I said, if the puppy doesn't die mysteriously, there's absolutely nothing to worry about.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I don't know about you, but the skin on my hands is almost never unbroken. Scratches, paper cuts, torn cuticles, dry skin cracks, etc.


Haha, this is funny -- after I typed my post, I also looked at my hands! Right now I have a few assorted cat and dog scratches in various states of healing... I guess I wouldn't be safe from rabid animal licks either. 

The health department never takes any chances with rabies, which is probably one of the reasons that the US has been so successful in eradicating it. If anyone has ever come into any sort of contact with a known rabid animal, they have to get the shots. They don't do this because it's likely that rabies will be transmitted in ways other than bites, though. I'm searching for documented cases of rabies transmission in ways other than bites right now, and so far I've been unable to find anything... I'm not doing this to argue with you though (I don't even think I disagree?), I'm just doing it because I've discovered I find this topic fascinating. 

OP -- Again, keep in mind that Willowy and I are now talking about a situation with a known rabid animal, not a thriving puppy.


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## silencelikeacancergrows (Apr 11, 2011)

Well, I live and work in Silicon Valley, and I think the coworker got the puppy from a breeder in the area. He got the puppy when she was six weeks old, but I think that was just a simple case of the breeder and customer not knowing that they're supposed to wait until the puppy's eight weeks old. He normally keeps the puppy indoors, although he does occasionally take her for walks outside, but he makes sure that she doesn't sniff around too much in the grass.

So if the puppy dies in 10 days, I should worry? Doesn't the puppy have to be put into a special quarantine? 

Also, I remember that, a few weeks ago, I was in a pet supply store and saw that another customer had a schnoodle with her. I leaned down to pet the pooch and it licked me all over my face (which I loved, by the way). I've heard that rabies can be transmitted by saliva. Should I worry in this case as well?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

If every puppy who bit or scratched someone got put in a special quarantine, there would be very few puppies still in homes. If you are truly this concerned about rabies, you should probably avoid dogs altogether.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

Seriously?!

No. You do not need to be worried about rabies, especially not for being licked in the face by a dog. While it is technically possible to contract rabies this way, it is not common or likely. I don't know if there are any recorded cases of this happening. If you are seriously worried, check with your local law enforcement and ask if there have been any confirmed cases of rabies lately. I seriously doubt there will be in Silicon Valley. Here is the law about bite quarantines in the state of California that you're probably thinking about when asking "Doesn't the puppy have to be put into a special quarantine?":



> "(2) Isolation of Biting Animals. At the discretion of the local health officer any animal which bites or otherwise exposes a person shall be isolated in strict confinement in a place and manner approved by the local health officer and observed for at least 14 days (dogs and cats 10 days) after the day of infliction of the bite, with the exception that the following alternative to the 10 day isolation of dogs and cats is permitted -- dogs or cats which have been isolated in strict confinement under proper care and under observation of a licensed veterinarian, in a pound, veterinary hospital, or other adequate facility in a manner approved by the local health officer, may be released from isolation by the local health officer after five days of veterinary observation if upon conducting a thorough physical examination on the fifth day or more after infliction of the bite, the observing veterinarian certifies that there are no clinical signs or symptoms of any disease. Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions, a local health officer may authorize, with permission of the owner and other legal restrictions permitting, the euthanasia of a biting animal for the purpose of laboratory examination for rabies using the fluorescent rabies antibody (FRA) test in an approved public health laboratory."


If your co-worker has taken his dog to the vet and has been assured his dog is rabies-free, that would be good enough for me. And if any "local health officer" thinks that a 9-week-old puppy who has never been exposed to a rabid animal needs to be put on bite quarantine, that person should probably not be a "local health officer."

If the puppy dies in 10 days from when it bit you or develops other symptoms that are characteristic of rabies, you should worry. But he won't. You do not need to worry about rabies in either of your situations. Personally, I think it is extremely irresponsible to report a dog that is THAT young when you aren't even sure if he bit or scratched you.


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## silencelikeacancergrows (Apr 11, 2011)

Okay, okay. I understand. I guess I'm just being paranoid. With something as horrible as rabies, reason kind of flies out the window.

So is there any kind of preventative rabies vaccine for humans that I need to get if I'm going to be working with dogs at a shelter?


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

You CAN get one if you want, but they hurt and in your situation, it's not necessary. Like I said, rabies has been pretty much eradicated in domesticated dogs in the US, especially in urban areas. You do not need to get one. I do not know what kind of work you're doing at the shelter, or what kind of shelter you're at, but am I right to assume that you'll be working with the adoptable dogs that the public can also see? If this is the case, you will likely never be exposed to a dog that could potentially have rabies.

I'm almost positive that California shelters give all of their dogs (and puppies > 4 months) rabies vaccines before they're put up for adoption (I know they do here in AZ), so you would not be at risk from interacting with these dogs. Again, in the US, dogs largely become infected with rabies due to being bitten by a rabid animal or consuming a rabid animal. Silicon Valley doesn't have a lot of rabid animals (if any?) running around. If you're really worried about such a negligible risk factor, do not interact with any animal that has not received a rabies vaccine. Problem solved. 

I guess my point is that if you ask any of the staff members at your shelter if you should get a rabies vaccine, they will laugh at you. Or at least give you a face like "?"


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

There is a pre-exposure (preventative) rabies vaccine for people, many veterinary professionals and students are pre-exposure vaccinated. Back in the day when I was a student, my insurance covered it, but I've been hearing more and more stories about insurance not covering it and it is quite expensive. IIRC it's a series of 2 or 3 interdermal injections.

And actually, at the shelter if you are going to be handling incoming stray animals (with unknown health and vaccine history) it's actually not a bad idea to be vaccinated IMO. If you are going to be handling healthy dogs and cats who have been examined and vaccinated (for example, doing things like walking healthy dogs up for adoption or cleaning cages) then I wouldn't worry about it. With the anxiety you have over rabies, though, I'm not sure working or volunteering at a shelter is the best fit in the world for you.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

sassafras said:


> with the anxiety you have over rabies, though, i'm not sure working or volunteering at a shelter is the best fit in the world for you.


this!!!!!!

Learning more about the disease and its process in addition to learning more about dogs, cats, puppies and kittens will help you too.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

FYI they don't even GIVE puppies their first rabies vaccine until they are 12 weeks old. You are really, really being paranoid. I work at a shelter and even we don't have rabies vaccines (for the humans). In the 32 years the shelter has been open, they have never had a case of a rabid dog or cat. The shelter takes in over 1800 animals a year. However, we are in Minnesota, but I doubt it's too much different where you are.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

silencelikeacancergrows said:


> Okay, okay. I understand. I guess I'm just being paranoid. With something as horrible as rabies, reason kind of flies out the window.
> 
> So is there any kind of preventative rabies vaccine for humans that I need to get if I'm going to be working with dogs at a shelter?


You know, as panicked as you got over being scratched by a puppy, and as depressed as you already seem to be about the state of dogs in America (I'm guessing America?) I would really suggest that you find other ways to help animals than working in a shelter. Shelter work is dirty and depressing. It lets you see a lot of the worst in people, and very little of the best. Work on fund raising projects. Help raise funds and get supplies for the local shelter. Do paperwork and information at outreaches. Start a pet food pantry for people who are having a financial emergency, to help keep their pets out of the shelter. Work with area vets to start a fund that helps low income families afford emergency vet care. Help with paperwork or non-animal activities for your local low cost or free spay neuter clinic. Because if you work at the shelter, you WILL be depressed, and if you work with actual animals you WILL get scratched and dirty. Veterinarians and vet techs sometimes are vaccinated as a precaution (as they are frequently in contact with sick animals.) Shelter employees may as well, I don't know. I do know that when I was volunteering at the shelter it wasn't mentioned or required.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

silencelikeacancergrows said:


> Well, I live and work in Silicon Valley, and I think the coworker got the puppy from a breeder in the area. He got the puppy when she was six weeks old, but I think that was just a simple case of the breeder and customer not knowing that they're supposed to wait until the puppy's eight weeks old. He normally keeps the puppy indoors, although he does occasionally take her for walks outside, but he makes sure that she doesn't sniff around too much in the grass.
> 
> So if the puppy dies in 10 days, I should worry? Doesn't the puppy have to be put into a special quarantine?
> 
> Also, I remember that, a few weeks ago, I was in a pet supply store and saw that another customer had a schnoodle with her. I leaned down to pet the pooch and it licked me all over my face (which I loved, by the way). I've heard that rabies can be transmitted by saliva. Should I worry in this case as well?


A quarantine is only to prevent a suspected rabid dog from coming in contact with other animals or people. As posters have explained, the chance of this puppy having rabies is slim.

But you seem so worried about rabies, that maybe you should avoid contact with dogs or cats, since they will all lick, drool, scratch or bite. Or go get the shots that wildlife workers/shelter workers get, to be protected from rabies. So you'll stop worrying. But that puppy does not need to be quarantined.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

You're probably 100 times more likely to slip/fall/die in your bathtub than you are to contract rabies from a puppy.

So...

If you still have a bathtub after I mentioned this, I wouldn't worry about rabies, you should call a contractor.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Curbside Prophet said:


> You're probably 100 times more likely to slip/fall/die in your bathtub than you are to contract rabies from a puppy.
> 
> So...
> 
> If you still have a bathtub after I mentioned this, I wouldn't worry about rabies, you should call a contractor.


Like!!!!!!


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## silencelikeacancergrows (Apr 11, 2011)

Okay, I understand. I definitely want to work with dogs. I just wanted some clarification on the risks, if there were any. Now that I know that it's more or less impossible to contract rabies from a dog in the US, especially the part where I live, I can breathe easy.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Yes, you're definitely being paranoid, no offense intended. It's a scary disease, but very rare, especially here in the US. And trust me, the rabies series of vaccines is not something you want to go through for no good reason. 

Wanted to add, though, that the practice of quarantining a dog for 10 days due to suspect rabies is flawed. Rabies has an incubation period (time that it takes after exposure for symptoms to develop) in dogs that can last much, much longer than 10 days. I believe it's up to a year. I don't know why the quarantine is "10 days," but I would be interested to find out.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Yes, you're definitely being paranoid, no offense intended. It's a scary disease, but very rare, especially here in the US. And trust me, the rabies series of vaccines is not something you want to go through for no good reason.
> 
> Wanted to add, though, that the practice of quarantining a dog for 10 days due to suspect rabies is flawed. Rabies has an incubation period (time that it takes after exposure for symptoms to develop) in dogs that can last much, much longer than 10 days. I believe it's up to a year. I don't know why the quarantine is "10 days," but I would be interested to find out.


Interesting indeed. Public health always has us quarantine bite hold dogs and cats for 10 days, never more, never less. Maybe it is because they suspect the animal to be rabid (done incubating?) WHEN it bit, and would show additional symptoms/die within the 10 days?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Binkalette said:


> Interesting indeed. Public health always has us quarantine bite hold dogs and cats for 10 days, never more, never less. Maybe it is because they suspect the animal to be rabid (done incubating?) WHEN it bit, and would show additional symptoms/die within the 10 days?


That's my understanding, that if an animal is sick enough to be shedding virus in its saliva it's either going to be dead or showing significant symptoms within that 10 day window.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, that's my understanding, too. . .it's because even though there can be a long incubation period, they only shed the virus 10 days before death. And, as I understand it, the rabies vaccine will kill the incubating virus as long as it hasn't gotten to the point of shedding. So the usual protocol is to give the animal a rabies vaccine, then quarantine for 10 days. If the animal isn't showing symptoms by then, you're safe, and the vaccine will have killed any incubating virus. 

Anyway, rabies isn't something you don't want to worry about at all, as it should be taken seriously. But just don't worry TOO much. A well-cared-for pet dog isn't going to have rabies.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

sassafras said:


> That's my understanding, that if an animal is sick enough to be shedding virus in its saliva it's either going to be dead or showing significant symptoms within that 10 day window.


Yup. This. 
Unless the animal is symptomatic, the disease is not typically transmitted. The Quarantine used to be 14 days here in NY. If the dog dies in the quarantine period, its head is shipped off to the rabies lab and if rabies is found, the person goes thru the series. If the person was bitten in the face and especially if it is an adult dog and the person is a child, they may both quarantine and start the series or euth the dog and ship the head off to the lab and start the series. 

I am sure Sassafras knows this but.. the virus moves along neural pathways from the bite site to the brain. The closer to the brain the bite is, the quicker the bite recipient can deelop symptoms. Once the disease is symptomatic, the death rate is nearly 100%.

In order to insure a dog has an immune response, unmediated buy the motyher's antibodies, you really want to wait to 16 weeks for the first vaccination for Rabies. Many are done at 12 weeks.. but waiting that extra 4 weeks is better (in my unprofessional opinion).


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Yup. This.
> Unless the animal is symptomatic, the disease is not typically transmitted. The Quarantine used to be 14 days here in NY. If the dog dies in the quarantine period, its head is shipped off to the rabies lab and if rabies is found, the person goes thru the series. If the person was bitten in the face and especially if it is an adult dog and the person is a child, they may both quarantine and start the series or euth the dog and ship the head off to the lab and start the series.
> 
> I am sure Sassafras knows this but.. the virus moves along neural pathways from the bite site to the brain. The closer to the brain the bite is, the quicker the bite recipient can deelop symptoms. Once the disease is symptomatic, the death rate is nearly 100%.
> ...


Thank you for explaining that!


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