# My dog is over-correcting dogs at dog park



## cattlecollie (Dec 22, 2016)

So I have a 1.5 year old border collie/cattle dog mix, and he has been reactive pretty much his whole adult life, despite lots of training and counter conditioning his whole youth (and being co raised by my ex girlfriend who is a dog trainer). One of my biggest problems right now is that whenever I take him to the dog park, if there is a dog he hasn't met before, and is bigger than him (this isn't a problem with any dog smaller than him) he will go to "greet them" but then immediately "corrects" them for being "too close" by lunging at their face and it looks like he's full on attacking him, but he's just saying "stay away from me I don't want to play" in a very unnecessary way (i think) 

So a typical scenario will be us at the park playing fetch, and then today I'll use as an example, a woman and her two young daughters come into the park with their young golden retriever, and my dog will go up and act all friendly towards the people and then as soon as he sees the dog close by he will lunge at it violently and bite at it, but it never last more than...seven or eight seconds and then my dog doesn't mess with the other dog at all unless the dog very belligerently is chasing after my dog while he is trying to play fetch. At first people at this dog park I just started going to (this was also a problem at the old park I went to) people would be really cool about understanding that my dog was just telling their dog to leave mine alone, and to buzz off so we can do our thing, and it made me feel like my dog wasn't doing anything weird, just correcting other dogs for being too close and maybe being a little over fearful.

Well two times in the past two days my dog has done this "aggressive" correcting to peoples dogs and they got really freaked out by it, thinking my dog is aggressively trying to fight their dog. Now I understand enough to know that my dog is insecure, he is insecure about bigger dogs being around him in most scenarios despite being around TONS of dogs, big and small his whole life, that he is telling this dogs to leave him alone because he is intimidated, that he should be giving more subtle signals before lunging at dogs faces, and that while my dog has the right to tell dogs to screw off, he is not allowed to be that aggressive about it. This pretty much happens every day at the park, as long as some medium to big dog he hasn't met comes into the park.

I need to be able to take him to the dog park and exercise him daily, but I need him to not bother seeing the other dogs as a threat. He isn't a resource guarder besides appropriately keeping his ball away from other dogs. It literally is like he has OCD and has to lunge at a dogs face in order to say "don't mess with me here while i play fetch" and then after that he is cool with the dog for the most part, and always people. I don't want to keep putting him over his threshold but I need this behavior to be curbed so I don't have to take him to the park at really early inconvenient hours.

Any help is so appreciated. I understand it may be something only a professional could help with. For now I am just going to take him to the park before anyone shows up so I'm not triggering him, but would love to be at a point where he doesn't see the other dogs as a weird threat while we are there, or anywhere really (we don't go other places lol)


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

The answer is not to take him to the dog park. He is insecure. Why would you continue to force your dog into a situation where he thinks he must take a defensive posture? 

A better solution if you want him to play with other dogs is meeting up with some people who have dogs that he is comfortablevwith and letting those dogs play.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Don't take him to the dog park. A whole lot of dogs, especially herding types and bullies, are not suited to dog parks. It doesn't make them bad dogs, it doesn't make them problem dogs, it just means it is not a suitable location for them. 

If you do decide to still take him to the dog park (not a good idea), then do not play fetch there. Fetch and other toys create the risk/chance of resource guarding which ups the ante in terms of dog-dog interactions. 



> He isn't a resource guarder besides appropriately keeping his ball away from other dogs.


 At a public dog park, there really isn't the concept of "appropriately" keeping his ball from other dogs. If he gets it first, another dog might take askance. If he doesn't get it first and another dog gets to it faster, he isn't going to see that as a "fair and square, first dibs" kinda thing. Toys and treats are problems at dog parks excepting the rare HUGE off-leash hiking style park rather than a few fenced acres type park.

If a dog is insecure, if a dog is lunging to tell other dogs to stay away, then that is a dog who is NOT enjoying the dog park. You can exercise him without the dog park; he does not NEED to be there.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

To add to what everyone else is saying so far, your dog lunging at other dogs face isn't just unacceptable because it looks aggressive, it's unacceptable because this behavior might get him on the receiving end of another dog's aggression. Some dogs don't appreciate being growled at and they might bite him back. 

If you're taking your dog to the park mostly to play fetch, and don't have a better place to do it, you might try getting up super super early to use the park when there's nobody around. Even if the park isn't totally empty you'll find that it's easier to introduce your dog to just a few others he might meet at the park around that time of day.

Guarding really isn't appropriate at all...even dogs that obsess over their toys will usually give up the toy rather than risk a confrontation. I've seen dogs that absolutely obsess over jolly balls stop mid-pounce and back away because another dog was too close to the ball.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

"Guarding really isn't appropriate at all...even dogs that obsess over their toys will usually give up the toy rather than risk a confrontation. "

Every dog I own will fight to keep their own toy. I don't consider it inappropriate. But I would never play with toys in a dog park. I suspect that toy play triggers many dog park altercations.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

trainingjunkie said:


> "Guarding really isn't appropriate at all...even dogs that obsess over their toys will usually give up the toy rather than risk a confrontation. "
> 
> Every dog I own will fight to keep their own toy. I don't consider it inappropriate. But I would never play with toys in a dog park. I suspect that toy play triggers many dog park altercations.


When I let my dog play with my parent's dog, my dog will stop rather than pounce on a toy the older dog is going for. I've also seen lots of dogs who were playing very intensely with jolly balls or kongs back off because another dog was in the way. Course I've also seen dogs who will hoard all the toys in a corner and lay on them so no one else can have them, but usually they'll stash the toy somewhere, not risk a fight over it. I worked at a doggy day camp for a while and if I had one dog who wasn't appropriate all the toys had to go up...but I usually didn't have any problems. I'd put away all of the toys at the first sign one of my dogs wasn't entirely appropriate with it. 

I don't think toys need to stay out of the park entirely but I would be willing to take all the toys up immediately if anyone gets too intense over them. And more than that, be willing to remove my dog if he was getting too intense over anything.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

As a courtesy to other dog park goers, please stop taking your dog to the dog park. The unspoken etiquette (and sometimes written rule) is dog parks are for dogs that are generally bombproof around other dogs and truly love interacting with different dogs. Your dog sounds selective or tolerant at best. Honestly, nowhere in your post does it sound like he enjoys other dogs and it sounds like you are just using the space to play fetch, which is not fair to other dogs and owners there.

Also, running up to another dog doesn't mean a dog necessarily wants to play or be friends. Even dogs who strongly dislike other dogs may run up to them because they want to gather information or ward of the 'threat.' The difference is, some dogs who are uncomfortable will move away, whereas other dogs will try to ward the other dog away (snapping, growling, lunging, etc.). The latter can lead to nasty situations with the wrong crowd of dogs.

Keep in mind as well that any behavior that's allowed to be practiced becomes a habit and can be stronger. That means not only is your dog not learning proper social skills but he is also getting more and more defensive about other dogs. This is risky because with the wrong dog, it can become a bite. Your dog actually sounds a lot like mine in the social aspect; my dog will greet dogs and also go from zero to sixty without doing damage. My dog grew up going to dog parks and I can say with high confidence that the reason why he is so bad with dogs is because I continued bringing him to dog parks thinking he just needed more socialization when in fact he just didn't want other dogs in his face anymore. If your dog and mine were in a park, I can almost guarantee there would be blood. Your dog reacts the same as mine and mine does not back down. I would suggest negating that risk before something serious happens.

I don't think your dog correcting other dogs is a bad thing, though his reactions do seem a little over the top based on your description. However, I DO think it is irresponsible to bring your dog to a dog park.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

LennyandRogue said:


> When I let my dog play with my parent's dog, my dog will stop rather than pounce on a toy the older dog is going for. I've also seen lots of dogs who were playing very intensely with jolly balls or kongs back off because another dog was in the way. Course I've also seen dogs who will hoard all the toys in a corner and lay on them so no one else can have them, but usually they'll stash the toy somewhere, not risk a fight over it. I worked at a doggy day camp for a while and if I had one dog who wasn't appropriate all the toys had to go up...but I usually didn't have any problems. I'd put away all of the toys at the first sign one of my dogs wasn't entirely appropriate with it.
> 
> I don't think toys need to stay out of the park entirely but I would be willing to take all the toys up immediately if anyone gets too intense over them. And more than that, be willing to remove my dog if he was getting too intense over anything.


Your sample of dogs in this case is "biased" regarding toy guarding. At a doggie daycare, you're already selecting out only the dogs that are at least generally friendly with other dogs to begin with. Then you are selecting further (a good thing for safety of course!! but not something that shows a full picture) when you remove a toy at the first sign of any issue because then you are only seeing that one dog isn't willing to share and not seeing further how the other dogs react when he doesn't share.

IMO, the majority of dogs will not share toys with strange dogs. A large number of dogs will not share toys with known or strange dogs. And a fair number of dogs will manage to guard a stick if another dog tries to take it.

Only a small number of dogs will totally give up a toy (especially one they obsess over) rather than confront another dog. It does depend though on how far they are willing to take that confrontation and how the OTHER dog reacts to it.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

That would be true if the people who did temp tests and had final say over whether a dog would be social actually worked in the kennel. After a while it became basically impossible to remove a dog from group no matter how inappropriate they were. I was even yelled at for putting dogs in time out when they aggressed on others. :/


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

LennyandRogue said:


> That would be true if the people who did temp tests and had final say over whether a dog would be social actually worked in the kennel. After a while it became basically impossible to remove a dog from group no matter how inappropriate they were. I was even yelled at for putting dogs in time out when they aggressed on others. :/


But that is part of my point; it is still self-selecting to the point of dogs that can in some way go to doggie daycare and you said yourself


> but I usually didn't have any problems.


so you apparently didn't often have aggressive or overly possessive or pushy to the point of causing fights dogs.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

I did, but I don't feel the need to go into excessive detail in this thread. Most of the dogs who had issues with toys had threshold problems and couldn't tolerate dogs taking up their space in general. I also had a number of dogs I couldn't interact with in group because they would become protective and attack other dogs for approaching me. But with toys, if I saw any inappropriate behavior at all the toys all went up.

But I think my most colorful example of a dog with issues in group being somewhat appropriaye with a toy is a bulldog who would normally excessively hump other dogs. Well, one day he came out to group and discovered the jolly egg. He literally humped it all group, all three hours of group. At some point he took a water break and another dog tried to play with the egg. Bulldog ran over and immediately started humping the egg, other dog gave up and went to do something else. No snarking or growling...just humping the egg.

I also had a frenchie who was being so intense I was about to take her toy away until it rolled under another dog. She immediately stopped and waited to see what the other dog did until she resumed zipping around like a maniac after the ball. 

But you're right, I was very cautious about toys and would put them away for minor snarks.


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## cattlecollie (Dec 22, 2016)

Ok well it definitely sounds like I won't be taking him to the dog park unless I am able to get up super early...which is fine, because I'm obviously more concerned about my dog getting better than getting my X minutes of fetch in per day. I know it is bad to keep bringing him there if it is going to keep happening and allowing my dog to do the behavior.

It's stressful for me because he didn't learn how to really play fetch until 13/14 months probably and up until then it was a nightmare not being able to exercise him by having him run because he has such bad off leash control, so when he finally learned how to play fetch it was a miracle and at my old house we had two fields right next to us that I had easy access to whenever, and were mostly empty, but I don't have that now and so I've been going back to the dog park even though I stopped going in the first place because of my dogs just blind aggression. It is not easy. Some people think it's their dog's fault for getting in my dogs bubble and some people look at me like I'm a psycho and act like their dog almost died. either way, I'm not risking any dogs getting hurt.

Thanks again and I look forward to seeking further advice from users on here. It truly means a lot <3


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## wideturn (Apr 30, 2016)

My dog is prime example of why our daycare doesn't have toys or water bowls available in the play rooms. The dogs have to be rotated and given water in kennels separately. My dog is happy go-lucky and friendly as can be and will be the first to initiate play. He's very good with dogs of all sizes and ages and knows how to control himself and de-escalate situations. HOWEVER, add a toy or a dog bowl into the mix, and he'd be at the other dogs' throats in an instant. He doesn't mind dogs in his space or jumping onto him or biting his ear, etc, UNTIL there's a resource involved.

So put him on a 30ft leash and play fetch in a field or a park where you still have him on leash and he can still fetch.


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## Debbiesmith4555 (Dec 22, 2016)

Don't lose hope, all breeds can be trained not to bite other dogs so don't worry about that. The key is finding the proper training for your specific requirement and then working that training, with time, the dog will do what you ask of him or her.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Debbiesmith4555 said:


> Don't lose hope, all breeds can be trained not to bite other dogs so don't worry about that. The key is finding the proper training for your specific requirement and then working that training, with time, the dog will do what you ask of him or her.



Eh.... I think this is a bit over-simplified.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Debbiesmith4555 said:


> Don't lose hope, all breeds can be trained not to bite other dogs so don't worry about that. The key is finding the proper training for your specific requirement and then working that training, with time, the dog will do what you ask of him or her.


Not so much.

Dogs of all breeds can potentially be good with other dogs. Individual dogs who are not good with other dogs-- regardless of breed-- are generally not dog park candidates and may not be OK with interacting with other dogs at all (in this case, it just seems dog parks aren't a great idea but play with known dogs might be fine.) Style of play is a very individual thing. Training can only do so much to counter genetic traits.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

^^ What Shell said.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> "Guarding really isn't appropriate at all...even dogs that obsess over their toys will usually give up the toy rather than risk a confrontation. "
> 
> Every dog I own will fight to keep their own toy. I don't consider it inappropriate. But I would never play with toys in a dog park. I suspect that toy play triggers many dog park altercations.


I would never take Molly to a dog park because she would be the dog in the OP (and is, amusingly (not) a BC/ACD X). But she absolutely will not fight to keep her own toy. She has a few dog friends she plays with and if they've got the toy, they've got the toy. If they take the toy, they've got the toy. I don't consider doing otherwise inappropriate, but she absolutely will not fight to keep anything, including her beloved balls and discs. Thank god. (But yes, absolutely this is a known, friendly, dog, not a strange one). 

But seriously OP. My dog is like this. Don't go to dog parks. Your dog isn't over-correcting. Your dog is freaking out, and throwing a screaming tantrum because someone said hi. Don't let that happen, or your dog is going to up the ante and put holes in another dog, or another dog is going to respond badly and wipe the floor with your dog. Neither one is good, both could lead to your doing being dead. Seriously, I own this dog. She's a good dog (now), but dog park is never something she will be suited for.

And you'll be okay. You will really, really be okay. 

(ETA: Sorry, guys whole thread didn't load. Didn't mean to be super redundant)

*ETA 2: * HOly crap NO you can't 'train' every dog not to bite other dogs, WTF.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> *ETA 2: * HOly crap NO you can't 'train' every dog not to bite other dogs


That'd be pretty cool if it were true, wouldn't it? I mean at least if it were reliable, humane training methods that truly changed how a dog felt about other dogs.

I met a trainer years ago that subscribed to the philosophy that you could "train" away dog aggression. With a heavy application of e-collar shocks... it looks a lot like lack of dog aggression (in a really shut down dog) until the e-collar went away and the "showcase example" dog broke a tie-out, attacked & killed a much smaller dog walking by it, unintentionally injured the person trying to break up the fight, and got put down for the whole incident.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> That'd be pretty cool if it were true, wouldn't it? I mean at least if it were reliable, humane training methods that truly changed how a dog felt about other dogs.
> 
> I met a trainer years ago that subscribed to the philosophy that you could "train" away dog aggression. With a heavy application of e-collar shocks... it looks a lot like lack of dog aggression (in a really shut down dog) until the e-collar went away and the "showcase example" dog broke a tie-out, attacked & killed a much smaller dog walking by it, unintentionally injured the person trying to break up the fight, and got put down for the whole incident.


I'm just trying to apply this to a dog park setting where it's this broad generalization and the dog likes ALL OTHER DOGS. ...I'm pretty sure for most dogs with any level of reactivity (frustration, barrier, fear, other) it would require a lobotomy.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I'm just trying to apply this to a dog park setting where it's this broad generalization and the dog likes ALL OTHER DOGS. ...I'm pretty sure for most dogs with any level of reactivity (frustration, barrier, fear, other) it would require a lobotomy.


I took Chester to a dog park way back when. It was a very large park as far as fenced dog parks go, maybe 8-9 acres so not a "thunderdome" style park. He liked it and did fine but even with him, the uber dog for diffusing situations with other dogs, I could see the potential for problems just due to his play style (Boxer style paws mainly). 

I don't honestly think I have met a dog that likes ALL other dogs. Only dogs that have a really really low chance of starting a problem and a really really high chance of walking away from a problem. Most are somewhere in-between.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> I took Chester to a dog park way back when. It was a very large park as far as fenced dog parks go, maybe 8-9 acres so not a "thunderdome" style park. He liked it and did fine but even with him, the uber dog for diffusing situations with other dogs, I could see the potential for problems just due to his play style (Boxer style paws mainly).
> 
> I don't honestly think I have met a dog that likes ALL other dogs. Only dogs that have a really really low chance of starting a problem and a really really high chance of walking away from a problem. Most are somewhere in-between.


Yeah, and the overlap and interplay is crazy. Bug is a dog who likes MOST other dogs - not all, I've seen her get annoyed once or twice - but is HIGHLY likely to start a problem because she's a really rude dog and would seek out a dog to play, play rudely, not heed warnings, and end up in trouble. Kylie really doesn't like other dogs - at all - but she will diffuse, walk away, avoid, go find a human to stand between their legs, give a bunch of appropriate warnings before finally air snapping to say 'no'. So it isn't even a 'likes dogs/doesn't like dogs' clean divide between 'will cause a problem/won't.'

Heck, MOLLY, when she likes a dog REALLY likes dogs. It's just, you know, all those dogs she'd like to tear the faces off. (I exaggerate. But she yells in faces and that's really bad.)


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

The thing about dog parks is it would be _nice_ if people thought about other members of their community and how their dog(s) may affect others... Instead of thinking just about their dogs, their convenience, and their needs.


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