# Our Boz Shepherds.



## Monster Malak

This is MONSTER, our 10 month (in picture) Boz Shepherd Pup. Cant tell you how great of a dog he is. Sweet, loving, intelligent, but will protect us from any threat.









Geisha, our new import Boz Shepherd. 18 month old female, and hopefully girlfriend of Monster.
Power and Presence do not come close to describing her. I am going to experiment with weight pulling,,, as opposed to us. 








Three Boz in a first introduction Tail Sniff Off!!! Was a tense moment.


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## CoverTune

Holy huge.. what do they weigh?


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## Monster Malak

Geisha is 145-150 pounds. Monster is 125 pounds, but will grow and fill out much. 

As a Breed, 150-250#, 31-38 inches for males, 100-160#, 29-33 inches for females. 

Some get up to 39-41 inches tall.

My plans are to keep a good balance of height and weight.


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## Mheath0429

They are beautiful, but I would worry because their ribs are so prominent.


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## Monster Malak

The Large Livestock Guardian dogs do not fill out until close to or after 2 years. In fact, it would be unhealthy to try to push them to do so. They put all of their energy into growing their structure at first. Pushing to much nutrition on them could increase incidence of bone or joint issues. 








This is a mature male Boz Shepherd. 38.5 inches and 254 pounds.








Another Male, 33.5 inches 180#








You can see that although they fill out, they still maintain a WORKING WEIGHT. They have been bred for thousands of years to travel many hundreds of miles a year, run as fast as a wolf, and be able to fight most predators. These are far from the PETS that most of or dogs of today have become.


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## sassafras

Now that's a big-a$$ dog.


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## PatchworkRobot

They're quite nice looking dogs. Where are they from?


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## Mheath0429

Some dogs are just finicky. Delilah doesnt eat much either. She's a husky, but if it's human food she is all over it.


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## LuvMyAngels

Giant breeds are best grown lean. Allowing for extra weight puts added stress on their growing bones and joints. Add in that they're at a lanky, teen stage...you're gonna see more rib than most like. 

Beautiful dogs! Please keep posting pictures, I'd love to see Monster when he's mature.


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## sassafras

Yea they're lean along the rib cage, but look at how muscular they are in the shoulders and thighs. I think they look fantastic, myself.


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## +two

wow. just wow. 

I am sure you get a lot of "wheres the saddle" jokes and "holy WTF! IS THAT!" anyways, you would around my neighborhood. 

I love them. Please tell me more and keep posting pictures!


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Yeah they are in fine weight for dogs their age and build. And seriously if you think that is too skinny, go take a look at true desert sighthounds. 

Gorgeous dogs btw.


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## Porphyria

Great looking dogs!


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## Monster Malak

Wow, thanks for the interest!
The Boz Shepherds are a Landrace Regional Breed from the Northern stretches of the Urfa Mountains in South East Turkey,,,,that was a mouthfull!!!
Were bred as a Livestock Guardian, but also used as a Family and Village Guardian. The main difference between the Boz (and other Livestock Guardians) and most other Guarding or Protection breeds, is that their PREY DRIVE has been bred down. With this comes a reduced risk with small pets, children or family. A dog that is Submissive to their family, including the children. No need to "Maintain Dominance" over the dog as in many stronger temperment breeds.

As far as the RIBS, as all of the LGD breeds from Turkey, they carry some genetics from the sighthound. (One reason they have such a low incidence of hip issues). They can be fully muscled, fit, healthy, and still show some rib. Where My Kangals tend to stay well fleshed on the same diet, the Boz stay lean. Could be the historic emphasis on physical ability. The dogs accompany the shepherd with the flock for 200-600 miles every year through the mountains. Constantly exposed to the environmental extremes, poor nutrition, demanding work. 

And yes, we get all the "How much does he eat, got a saddle, what is that, Great Dane or Mastiff Cross" We take the pups to our childrens ball games, and at time it gets hard to watch the game. 















Two more examples of the Boz Shepherd. At a working or conditioned weight.








This is a Azawakh, from South Saharah. Is a sighthound used as a Livestock guardian. Although looking at near death, this dog is in a average condition for the breed in its native lands. Talk about ribs!!


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## Damon'sMom

+two said:


> wow. just wow.
> 
> I am sure you get a lot of "wheres the saddle" jokes and "holy WTF! IS THAT!" anyways, you would around my neighborhood.
> 
> I love them. Please tell me more and keep posting pictures!


This!!!
Exactly what I was thinking.


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## mustlovedogs123

I want one! you have some beautiful dogs!!


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## eb014

your dogs look so beautiful and healthy!


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## Monster Malak

Thanks Everyone!

I admired these dogs on the internet for years. Thinking they were Kangals all the time. Wasn't until 6 years later that I finally found someone with the connections to (GET) some out of Turkey. As it is illegal to take them out of the country. So after a leap of faith and risk of wireing money overseas to someone I have never spoken with, I have my DREAM dogs.

Can see many more pictures at monstermalak.com.
Hope you enjoy them.


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## Canyx

I think you've given me a new breed to fall in love with.
I LOVE mastiff/molasser (I know there's a distinction but bear with me ) breeds that aren't too squash-nosed or bulky looking. Your dogs are absolutely GORGEOUS. 
Though the one with the red tasseled collar looks a bit scar-faced!


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## Monster Malak

The three grown Boz Shepherds on the one post are over in Turkey. The white dog, Duman, is a hardworking Shepherd dog. He usually wears a iron collar with 4 inch spikes to help him with the fights with wolves. The fights with wolves are the reason for many of the scars. 

The Boz Shepherds are hard working dogs in an environment where the weak are disposed of. Although it has its elements of cruelty, in a harsh environment full of poverty, the people have little choice. Effective dogs are elemental to their survival.

This harsh reality has created a tough dog, with unique abilities and qualities.
My kind of dog!


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## Abbylynn

Those have got to be the biggest dogs I have ever seen in my entire life! I am a big dog lover but that is HUGE! They sure are impressive!


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## Shandwill

Glad to see more LGD breeds on here! They are gorgeous.


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## ufimych

Do they work with livestock?


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## Monster Malak

These are two Boz Shepherds or GUREGH as they are refered to in the Urfa Mountians. The Reddish one was purchased by the breeder, and is now a stud dog. He was 13 in the picture, and is still breeding at 16. 








Here is another Boz Shepherd up in the Urfa Mountains. Notice the Iron Spike collar, used to prevent the wolf from biting the throat of the dog.

I also have my Boz and Kangals with Miniature Cows, Goats, and Poultry. To give you an idea of their acceptance of livestock. My first Boz were 9 months old before I got my first goats. When I drove up, you would have thought I had a Polar Bear in the truck. The goats would have been killed instantly. I penned the goats, and would occasionally allow the Boz to go smell them. A month later, with the need to seperate out some dogs, I placed the Boz in a 50x125 foot pen with goats. With only the limited exposure over a month, the Boz never blinked an eye at them. No play behavior, chasing, attacking or anything beside the occasional growl when the goats try to eat when the dogs are eating. I feel this attest to their Low Prey Drive, and High Maternal Bonding bred in.


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## ufimych

Great. I like when working breed dogs are used to their purpose.


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## Charis

Amazing dogs!


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## Monster Malak

This is Sefir, a great stud dog that the Turkish Breeder sold to Korea for 50,000 EUR.









This is a female in Turkey that was bred to provide me with some bloodstock.









This stud is 39.5 inches at the shoulder. I would LOVE to have him!!


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## ufimych

The dogs are looking very well and I believe they are probably good at work. There are rich people in North Korea. Hopefully, the man sold it to someone in South Korea, who could pay such an idiotic price for the dog. There are many related breed dogs in Bulgaria, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and in Cacasus countries. They do their job well. Are they used mainly for dogfights? Originally, they were for livestock protection, but during recent years city folks picked them up for dogfighting sport, unfortunately. Tis is going on in Turkey and in Cenral Asia as well. Transhumans livestock management is disappearing and changing way of life is changing the dogs.


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## Monster Malak

Unfortunately, this would also be the case in Turkey. Few dog breeders or owners are not affiliated with the fighting. But also, the Dogfighting is something that is ingrained into their culture, as it has historically and presently used to evaluate for the best wolf killers. Also in the fights, injury is prevented if possible, by stopping the fights when submission or domminance is shown.

With that said, I do not condone the fighting, but can understand the tool it has been for selection. The Western Mentality or type of dogfighting should not be a practice, but sadly is.

Luckily the breeder I found also values the Livestock Guardian traits and abilities of the Boz Shepherd. He works to replenish the quality of dogs lost to neglect, by placing many dogs with the Shepherds. He has up to 200 dogs placed in working environments, that he benefits from in their testing in the harsh environment and demanding work. From these dogs, he can select the proven bloodstock for his breeding program. This also allows him to selectively bring in the new blood by placing dogs with the Shepherds that have excellent "outside stock", for breeding purposes. 

Many have thought how the breeds will change when the selective pressures are changed or removed. Take a dog that is a refined worker from thousands of years of only breeding to the males that have lived 8-10 years in a hostile environment, subsisting on a poor diet, "worked like a DOG" (back when that was true), fought many battles, killed many predators and passed on their superior traits.

How will they change when they move into the average home environment. Temperament, health, abilities will all change.
One reason I hope to continue to be able to get fresh blood out of Turkey, from TESTED stock. Dogs proven with the selective pressures that formed them in the first place.

That is at least my plan!


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Well the Eastern type of dog fighting is not as bloody and cut throat as it is over here. It is still legal in parts of Japan, and they will stop the fight if a dog draws blood, the dog that drew the blood is disqualified.


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## Monster Malak

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Well the Eastern type of dog fighting is not as bloody and cut throat as it is over here. It is still legal in parts of Japan, and they will stop the fight if a dog draws blood, the dog that drew the blood is disqualified.


I understand the difference between dogfighting in the Western (USA) and the Eastern (Asia and Asia Minor). And I AGREE with you FULLY. It has also been used as a selection tool in those parts of the world, and has deep cultural roots. Where as here in the USA, it has been and is just a Gambling Sport. 

Also, here in the USA, because of the culture of dogfighting, there is a HUGE emotional hatred for it. To the point of, when I try to inform people of the evolution of the Turkish or Asian Livestock Guardian breeds, I often get slammed with hatefull statements. I am not saying that I would ever fight my dogs, but I do understand the importance of TESTING or fighting in their development. 

I could not IMAGINE risking injury or DEATH to one of my babies, but as an evaluation tool of their abilities, you would have to have respect and admiration for a DOG that could "HOLD HIS OWN" against a mature African Male LION, in the Lions own Cage.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Monster Malak said:


> I understand the difference between dogfighting in the Western (USA) and the Eastern (Asia and Asia Minor). And I AGREE with you FULLY. It has also been used as a selection tool in those parts of the world, and has deep cultural roots. Where as here in the USA, it has been and is just a Gambling Sport.
> 
> Also, here in the USA, because of the culture of dogfighting, there is a HUGE emotional hatred for it. To the point of, when I try to inform people of the evolution of the Turkish or Asian Livestock Guardian breeds, I often get slammed with hatefull statements. I am not saying that I would ever fight my dogs, but I do understand the importance of TESTING or fighting in their development.
> 
> I could not IMAGINE risking injury or DEATH to one of my babies, but as an evaluation tool of their abilities, you would have to have respect and admiration for a DOG that could "HOLD HIS OWN" against a mature African Male LION, in the Lions own Cage.


Agreed I don't like the kind of fighting you see in the US, and used to and probably still do see in Europe, but I respect the kind of fighting you see in Asia and other areas. The kind of fighting you see in the US is very despicable, and I can see why people thing any fighting is despicable. But the dogs fought in Japan are loved, they aren't left to die if they lose.


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## ufimych

We have PADS (Primitive Aboriginal Dog Soceity International) and publish PADS JOurnal International with original articles written by dog users, experts and sometimes by scietists. I countries of origin sheep guarding dogs are routinely involved in fights, but these fights occur naturally and even incouraged for testing young dogs, like tournaments. They never end with death, the dogs stop fighting as soon as one of the opponents submits. This is not the same as dog fights with betting and where dogs are bred selectively for gameness, which is desire and ability to fight until death.


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## Monster Malak

Another note of interest is that unlike most of the FIGHTING BREEDS utilized JUST for fighting, the Livestock Guardians fight to defend. In Turkey, it is noted that a dog will only fight to defend itself, or refuse to fight if the dogs owner (or flock) is not present. In their mind, they are only defending you.

One of the things considered ILLEGAL in Turkey is to bring a child of the dogs family to the fight. Because the dog will fight with super powers. So I am told that people will sneak the childs clothing to the fight. They protect out of LOVE, not out of a Prey Drive, which is something that makes them a safer family Guardian.

Although Test fighting is something that has been part of their evolution, it in no way should be used to define them. They are a huge dog that is full of love and devotion, and will defend you with their life.


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## ufimych

I am not sure how much love these dogs have, but they are loyal to the master and they like the sheep herd they live with. It becomes their home and territory and they will defend it against predators, other dogs and uninvited humans. This is their survival tactics. Native owners of sheep are not rich people and they do not want worthless dogs. Fighting tournaments are needed as tests for fighting ability of best males, which would pass their quality to the puppies they sire. In their home countries, like in Tajikistan or Kazakhstan, when wildlife is abundant, the dogs are not fed. They hunt and eat marmots, groundsquirrels and scavenge. The food provided by people is not always available. It is grains and dairy by products cooked for the dogs. The life and work of dogs is harsh and sometimes difficult. They kill jackals and foxes and keep wolves at bay. Even brown bear would be confronted and fought by a team of dogs, if it is coming too close to the herd at night.
This is well described in our article of the PADS Journal. I can send you a sample copy in private, if someone is interested. I never had this kind of dogs, but I saw them in Russia and in Kazakhstan. They are used not only for livestock protection. If kept on the yard, they will protect your home and can be seriously dangerous to unaware or would be intruder. IF raised with livestock in a rural environment, they are less aggressive to humans and usually do not attack without worning.


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## Monster Malak

I would love the info on the PADS. Can get my email off my website monstermalak.com

Thanks for your input and knowledge. I would enjoy speaking with you.


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## Monster Malak

Purplebumblebee said:


> I would like to point out the first dog in that photo is a Kangal. As far as temper on these dogs, they are believed to be breed from Aksaray Malakli and Kangal's so I would watch out on what children and strangers you let pet your dogs without supervision, they contain absolutely no sighthound genetics. Prey drive is not necessarily breed down from the dogs, it is low mostly because of there use to guard sheep and goats however if they are hungry they may go after rabbits or other small-medium size animals. Nice looking dogs by the way.


Purplebumblebee,,,, I do understand how you might have be confused as to the Boz, but your information is wrong. The first dog in the picture is the father of my dog Max. His name is Sefir, and is the son of Herkul, and grandson of Emperator, greatgrandson of a Urfali Guregh dog for whose name I can't remember at this time. I also know the aunts and uncles of this dogs great and great grandfathers. So for you to say he is a Kangal, I would have to ask you from where your information comes from. 

The Boz are not from Aksaray, but more from the Tuzkoy, Konya and Urfa regions. Aksaray dogs tend to be more of a Thick or Mastiff type of build. I am very familiar with the temperament of the Boz, and can guarantee you, that children are safe with them.....
I take my dogs to ballparks, parades, friends homes, and to parks in my town. I do not know what you have read, but your information is incorrect.


And I would also like to find out where you have gathered your information as to the breeding of the Boz with reference to the inclusion of the sighthound genetics. The Kangal has inclusion of the Tazi in their history, the Akbash even more. But the Yoruk has the most sighthound as is indicated in their structure and speed. The Boz are a Regional Varient of the Yoruk, and have a speed of 27-37 mph. How would you figure that a 150-190 pound Boz dog could run so fast? 

My comment as to the reduction of their Prey Drive is in reference to their historical and present use as a Livestock Guardian Dog. The LGD with a square profile and a cureled tail has been documented in the Toros Mountains from 6-9,000 years ago. My comment was not indicating that it was a recent breeding to reduce the prey drive, as this is something that has been bred down over thousands of years. 

You are correct in that the Boz will hunt for sustinance, much like the Kangal, Akbash, Yoruk and Kars. It was a necessity for them to maintain their ability to survive. 

Again, I understand the source of confusion a person on the internet may run across. I have much information on my website NaturalBornGuardians.com

Not trying to argue, just to clarify.

Brian


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## juliemule

I love to see able working dogs


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## Monster Malak

Andrew,

I understand that you own a Kangal, have looked on the internet, and talked to some breeders. But I am telling you that your information is incorrect. I have owned a bloodline of Kangals for 4 generations, own 9 Boz, have researched all aspects of the dogs, have talked to many dozens of breeders to shepherds from Turkey, Iran, Syria to Iraq, and am only stating information that is verified and accurate. Information about the dogs from Turkey is difficult to find, and much of it is biased due to personal breed preferences to religious beliefs. But if you sort through all of the information, an objective wealth of information is out there. Researching the people (Yoruk, Kurdish Shepherds, Ancient civalizations) as opposed to the dogs finds the information that is not biased like the information placed by other dog people. 

The Boz are the REGIONAL LGDs from URFA, KONYA, TUZKOY, DENIZLI and surrounding areas. The Aksaray is considered a dog from the city, and is large and slow. To breed the Aksaray to a smaller Kangal, and get a dog that is taller, faster and more agile does not seem likely. And also, a Yoruk is quite different from an Aksaray Dog. Please take the time to look at the information in the links. Yoruk is the Nomadic Shepherd Dog, YORUK means (The people that walk). In the Yoruk dogs, there are regional varients, much like the varients of Kangals through much of Turkey. The Guregh, Toros or Boz type come from the South and SouthEast, in the West, they are called Akbash, and are quite different, but still a Yoruk. Researching the dogs from Konya, Urfa, Tuzkoy and the areas will show many dogs that are indistinguishable from one another. The Aksaray do not fit into this type.
Aksaray is a mastiff type dog from a single city. The Aksaray is not built for movement or speed, the Boz is. Neither the Aksaray or the Kangal has a square profile, the Yoruk and (Regional Varient BOZ) do have a square profile. Both the Yoruk and Boz type are considered a taller, faster more agile dog. 

Refering to the influence of sighthound in the Turkish LGDs, please refer to the links below. In Turkey, the working dogs have no distinct boundries, and the types are blended between the regions. In SouthEast Turkey, the genetic line between the Tazi and Guregh (Boz) is blurred. The Yoruk Nomadic people needed a dog that is capable of traveling 20-50 miles a day, have the speed to catch wolves, but still function as a livestock guardian. The shepherd dogs have been clocked at 40mph in southeast turkey, from where the Boz come.

As to the age of the Boz, I was refering to the first depictions of dogs of the type in the Tarus and Zargos Mountains where the Halaf people evolved into the culture of the Kurdish people. Large dogs with Curled tails found in the region where the Boz dogs are still located. The same geographical area, with a uninterupted occupation by the same culture, utilizing the dogs in the same job that match the physical description of the Boz. Legbone and jaw fragments dating back 11,000 years are of the same size and structure of the Boz, and described as being the same as the "Kurdish Guard Dog". Archeological sites such as Jarmo show these depictions going back to 9,000 BC. So, I guess it is 11,000 years, not 9,000. 
http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Raisor-PhD2004.pdf
http://www.k9puppydogs.com/dog-breeding/html/new_scientific_discoveries_wit.htm
http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Raisor-PhD2004.pdf
http://naturalbornguardians.com/turkish-boz-shepherd/



http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-001.htm
"There are yoruk type dogs all over Turkey. Kangal type is concentrated in Sivas and Konya regions. *Yoruk means nomadic Turkmen*; Turkmen ruled at every corner of Anatolia, but their heaviest settlements are in the Western and Southern Turkey. *Yoruk type dogs can be seen in South East Turkey among Kurdish tribes*. *There are still a few nomadic Yoruk and Kurdish tribes in Turkey*. Their lifestyles are similar and dictate the type of the animals they can keep.
*There are undiscovered areas in Mediterranean and South East Turkey in relation to shepherd dogs*. The conflict between Kurdish guerillas and Turkish military caused so many flocks to be sold and slaughtered. Some villages cannot take their flocks to the highlands in the summer time, so they sell the flocks. Once they are sold they are not replaced again and the villagers move to the cities. The same is true in Sivas, although there was not a tangible terrorist activity in the past. In general whether there is terrorism or not, the flocks are getting smaller because of the global pressures on the Turkish economy and politics. It is not hard to forecast the total extinction of goat flocks first and sheep later in the next 15 years."

http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-006.htm

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/livestck.html
"*Suspected of being a cross between native mastiff-type dogs and a rather coarse native sighthound, the Akbash dog is more streamlined than the Kangal*."
http://www.anatoliandog.org/faq.htm
"The breed is believed to have been *developed from a mollasser and sight hound background*, and this heritage is evident in the massive head and chest, and sleek hindquarters (a blend of power and agility)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbash_Dog
"The Akbash Dog has its *unique combination of molosser and sighthound qualities*."
http://www.dogkangal.com/turkish-dogs/
"On the basis of the appearance and genetic research the conclusion has been made that his *origin was influenced by the dogs of greyhound and mastiff type*. The result of such crossbreeding presents different variants varying between two extremes:
	the „ greyhound “ type with a narrower skull, elegant, slim with well tucked up belly; he has longer legs and is generally gentler and typally reminds of Colie with strong densely-coated body;
	the „mastiff“ type with a powerful head; he has more skin flaps, there are types with hanging eyelids; he doesn´t have tucked up belly, he is of a heavier construction and his appearance is very similar to a light Labrador or German Bandog."


http://www.dogkangal.com/turkish-dogs/
"Turkish breeds often developed in the remote regions, they were selectively adapted to local conditions and situations. Each geographic area developed its own shepherd dog or guardian dog with specific properties. There exist a lot of more or less typally different variants, which marginally blend together. The most well-known types are Kangal, Akbash, Kars sheepdog and Anatolian mastiff, others e.g.: Catalburun (“catal“ fork, „burun“ nose), whose distinctive feature is a split nose, Konya with softer temperament, who can be bred as a pet,* Yoruk – a fast robust dog with a pinched muzzle*, who is connected with Kangal. Confusion is also caused by the fact that the Turks are used to distinguishing dogs according to their colour and coat: karabash (black head), kirik (short coat), kaba (long coat), brindle (hyena, i.e. with brindle), capar also called karayaka (black body, black dog) etc. In practice then originates the name of the dog, e.g. Kirik Yoruk or Karabash Kangal."


http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-003.htm
"*The double suspension gallop can also be seen in some shepherd dogs as well*. According to DVM Gurkan Kalayci, the white *shepherd dogs of Siirt, a city in the South East of Turkey, were able to reach 65 km/hr (40mph) for about 400 meters *(.2 miles).The speed of these dogs was measured when Kalayci was in a military Jeep in 1986-87. When he informed me about these dogs describing them as shepherd dogs, he clearly did not mean Tazis. I consider the source a reliable one and then I can safely assume that some Tazis should be able reach up to 75 km/hr (47mph).

The local shepherds informed Tulubas that *the history of their Tazis is as old as the shepherd dogs.* I believe that Ay’s information about the jumping and suspension abilities of Tazis are worth further study. The behavioral structure of the Tazis and Shepherd dogs do meet under certain conditions. *Some shepherd dogs are almost as fast as the Tazis, and some Tazis are thicker boned than the others and aggressive. These deviations do not fit into the general temperament description of both types of dogs, but the models developed to understand the facts better are good for scientific studies to make generalizations. Perhaps what Kalayci saw in Siirt were Tazi-like shepherd dogs. They had the speed and the guarding and the chasing instinct altogether. Chasing can be considered as a "preemptive" guarding.""*

Not looking for a fight either, but just want the accurate information to be presented.


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## Losech

Wow, these dogs are amazing! I love this type of livestock guardian.


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## Monster Malak

Here is another explanation of the Turkish Dogs, as it can be confusing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Shepherd
"Anatolian shepherd dogs are mainly yoruk dogs brought from middle Asia. There are very similar dogs in middle Asia. Turks brought 70 million sheep with them when they came to Anatolia, and that means they had many shepherd dogs with them. There are many types of yoruk dogs in anatolia. Turks call those types of dogs according to how they look: ala, *boz*, karabash, akbash, alabash, karayaka, çapar, dalkır, etc. There are also kars, karadeniz sheepdogs. To generalize a name under "Anatolian" is a bit misleading; rather it is better to call them all yörük dogs. Anatolian shepherd dogs include kangals, akbashes, *boz (toros type), *aksaray malaklı, and many other types of dogs. Kars dog is rather different in appearance and temperament. Karadeniz dog is also very different from other breeds of Turkey. The karaman type dogs are not the same as the other breeds. Akbash is genetically akin to far eastern Asian dogs. yörük dogs have affinity to the Turkmen alabai and middle Asian dogs. Kangals are also related to middle Asian dogs. Anatolia is an immense region and there is no one type of dog, which is more logical in terms of defining the dog breeds. In brief, there are many dog types in anatolia: *tuzköy shepherd dogs, toros type of yörük dogs*, uzunyayla type of yoruk dogs (kangals), haymana type of yoruk dogs, aegean type of yoruk dogs, malaklı type of dogs, a kbashes, the white haired dogs that are not akbashes, ala (pinto) type of yoruk dogs, yellow and somewhat kızıl (reddish) type of yoruk dogs, long haired yoruk dogs in color variations, and many more. In the 1970s, breeders in the West became interested in the dogs and began developing the landrace natural breeds as modern breeds by documenting their descent from particular ancestors and writing breed standards."


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## Spirit_of_Cotons

My god! And I thought Anatolians and Irish Wolfhounds were huge! Awesome dogs; I'm going to have to write them down as I'm writing down every rare breed dog I can find. They look really cool. Maybe I can use them in another story I do in the future cause for right now I'm using an Armenian Gampr Dog. Thank you for the pictures and the information on them; I love learning about rare breeds.


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## Avie

Monster Malak said:


> To generalize a name under "Anatolian" is a bit misleading; rather it is better to call them all yörük dogs. (...) Anatolia is an immense region and there is no one type of dog, which is more logical in terms of defining the dog breeds.


This is why I think it's a bit amusing when some people insist that Kangals aren't a breed and that 'the Anatolian Shepherd' is. 
While in my opinion, 'Anatolian Shepherd' is the same as 'Belgian Shepherd'... not a breed, but a group name. At least going by logic, it's supposed to be. But to make things confusing, nowadays there's also a breed called Anatolian Shepherd, developed in America. So, not actually a Turkish breed anymore, in my opinion. Also because Turkey doesn't recognize them as a Turkish breed. (according to one of my encyclopedias)


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## ufimych

Avie said:


> This is why I think it's a bit amusing when some people insist that Kangals aren't a breed and that 'the Anatolian Shepherd' is.
> While in my opinion, 'Anatolian Shepherd' is the same as 'Belgian Shepherd'... not a breed, but a group name. At least going by logic, it's supposed to be. But to make things confusing, nowadays there's also a breed called Anatolian Shepherd, developed in America. So, not actually a Turkish breed anymore, in my opinion. Also because Turkey doesn't recognize them as a Turkish breed. (according to one of my encyclopedias)


Speaking of breeds, all "recognized breeds" are very young and artificially derived out of ancient aboriginal stock dogs. Livestock protection dogs of Turkey are much older then "recognized by..." purebreds of Turkey. They still do exist in a form of not registered dogs, pretty large populations all over Anatolia, including some neighboring countries. They are not purebreds, of course, very variable in the appearance, but they are really authentic working dogs of this vast geographic region of the world. We published a series of articles about Anatolian Shepherd Dogs by Isik Guvener in our PADS International Journal.


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## ufimych

If you are interested, we publish PADS International Journal dedicated to aboriginal type dogs of the world. They are not purebreds, but they are oldest types of dogs in the world - real geographic races. All our published issues are here:
http://www.livestockguardiandogs.com/pads-journals-articles-t89.html


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## MountainDogs

I agree it's very unfair for these different ancient Turkish breeds to be lumped into 1 group and be called Anatolian Shepherds.
After all FCI recognizes the English and the American Cocker Spaniel as two separate breeds, the Standard Bull Terrier and the Miniature Bull Terrier are recognized as separate breeds as well. The schnauzer type consists of three breeds: giant, standard and miniature.
And there are many more examples out there so it really makes no sense why say Kangal, Akbas and Karst dog are all seen as a variety of the so called Anatolian Shepherd.

Now as to what has been said on page 2 of this topic, I have to say in my opinion a dog fight is still a dog fight.
Yes they may not fight dogs till death in Central Asia or in Turkey (they do in India or in Pakistan btw), but these fights are very bloody and it's not done as a tool to pick the best livestock guardian.
It's more of a tradition and often sadly done for money, literally hundreds of thousands of dollars are nowadays invested in these fights over there.
Even back in the days in (Central) Asia and in Turkey these dog fighting tournaments were done as an entertainment during winter, and often their shepherds wouldn't want to fight their best dog and risk an injury.
But now these dog fights have become a business..

L.A.Times has a very good and truthful article about it on here: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/20/world/la-fg-afghan-dogfighting-20110920

I have talked to many livestock guardian breeders over the years and they have told me many times that dogs from fighting lines often make very poor livestock guardian dogs. They are too aggressive to function well in a pack. And one has to keep in mind that Maremma Sheepdogs, Great Pyrenees, Pyrenean Mastiff, Estrela Mountain dogs and some other flockguardian breeds have never been selected through dog fighting.
And yet these breeds all defend their livestock just as good.
Besides, wolves do not fight like dogs.
In my opinion nature makes the best selection and that's what most shepherds have relied on hundreds if not thousands of years. 
Throughout history only the strongest, smartest dogs would survive in those harsh environments and the shepherds would cull unstable dogs that would cause any trouble.
So therefor fighting dogs with other dogs was never necessary.

I am not trying to bash anyone here, I'm simply offering my 2 cents to whoever is interested.


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## Bear2010

I think they are beautiful.I do know what you are saying about growing to fast with to much protein in the diet as a puppy for a large breed( pyr owner) but once grown I don't like ribby dogs.Thats just me.I also do not like dog fighting legal or not for any reason,it's not something that should or needs to be done to prove they are "Guardian Worthy".I do enjoy reading your posts and leanring about these beautiful dogs.


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## Bear2010

MountainDogs said:


> I agree it's very unfair for these different ancient Turkish breeds to be lumped into 1 group and be called Anatolian Shepherds.
> After all FCI recognizes the English and the American Cocker Spaniel as two separate breeds, the Standard Bull Terrier and the Miniature Bull Terrier are recognized as separate breeds as well. The schnauzer type consists of three breeds: giant, standard and miniature.
> And there are many more examples out there so it really makes no sense why say Kangal, Akbas and Karst dog are all seen as a variety of the so called Anatolian Shepherd.
> 
> Now as to what has been said on page 2 of this topic, I have to say in my opinion a dog fight is still a dog fight.
> Yes they may not fight dogs till death in Central Asia or in Turkey (they do in India or in Pakistan btw), but these fights are very bloody and it's not done as a tool to pick the best livestock guardian.
> It's more of a tradition and often sadly done for money, literally hundreds of thousands of dollars are nowadays invested in these fights over there.
> Even back in the days in (Central) Asia and in Turkey these dog fighting tournaments were done as an entertainment during winter, and often their shepherds wouldn't want to fight their best dog and risk an injury.
> But now these dog fights have become a business..
> 
> L.A.Times has a very good and truthful article about it on here: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/20/world/la-fg-afghan-dogfighting-20110920
> 
> I have talked to many livestock guardian breeders over the years and they have told me many times that dogs from fighting lines often make very poor livestock guardian dogs. They are too aggressive to function well in a pack. And one has to keep in mind that Maremma Sheepdogs, Great Pyrenees, Pyrenean Mastiff, Estrela Mountain dogs and some other flockguardian breeds have never been selected through dog fighting.
> And yet these breeds all defend their livestock just as good.
> Besides, wolves do not fight like dogs.
> In my opinion nature makes the best selection and that's what most shepherds have relied on hundreds if not thousands of years.
> Throughout history only the strongest, smartest dogs would survive in those harsh environments and the shepherds would cull unstable dogs that would cause any trouble.
> So therefor fighting dogs with other dogs was never necessary.
> 
> I am not trying to bash anyone here, I'm simply offering my 2 cents to whoever is interested.


I have to say I agree 100% with everything you have said here and feel the same way.


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## ufimych

Everyone, who loves his dogs, can breed and raise them to satisfy his taste and purposes. We do not always agree with what our PADS writers suggest, but their value is in description of authentic dogs and how they are used and selected in countries of their origin. This is that environment, from which we got them and know them. Most of them came from environment full of dangers, dogfights, poor by modern standards feeding, parasites and sometimes harsh treatment by owners. They are selfreliant dogs perfectly adapted to survive all kinds of hardships and yet, serving poeple. Breeding for being a good family pet and amikable neighborhood dog is not necessarily is good for being a livestock protection dog.


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## bmilla35

Well, this is a new breed to me. I can't say i've ever heard of a Boz Shepherd. I sure do like the looks of them though! I don't think you have to worry about any threats with a few of them walking with you..

This might have been mentioned previously, but are there many of them in the United States?


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## MountainDogs

ufimych said:


> Everyone, who loves his dogs, can breed and raise them to satisfy his taste and purposes. We do not always agree with what our PADS writers suggest, but their value is in description of authentic dogs and how they are used and selected in countries of their origin. This is that environment, from which we got them and know them. Most of them came from environment full of dangers, dogfights, poor by modern standards feeding, parasites and sometimes harsh treatment by owners. They are selfreliant dogs perfectly adapted to survive all kinds of hardships and yet, serving poeple. Breeding for being a good family pet and amikable neighborhood dog is not necessarily is good for being a livestock protection dog.


I never said flock guardians should be bred to be good family pet and a great neighborhood dog if that's what you meant. We have other dog breeds that would fit that description perfectly so there is no reason to try and soften the flock guardian breeds.
What I said was that fighting dogs should not be seen as a selecting tool to obtain the best livestock guardian.
I come from a rural area originally, where my grandparents and their grandparents before them have all used flock guardian dogs to protect their animals. 
No body I knew had to fight their dogs in order to get the best guardian. The conditions back then were really harsh and only the toughest, most intelligent dogs would be kept and these dogs would then pass on their good genes. 

In fact on these so called dog tournaments most people who fight their dogs are city people with a lot of money. And most of their dogs have never seen a sheep or a cow in their life.
There is a beautiful segment on "Dogs with Jobs" about a Maremmano who fought off wolves, bears and wild boars. And I believe at one point the Italian shepherd said his Maremmano killed a wolf.
Do you think that Italian shepherd fights his dogs? Of course not.
My point is, most shepherds throughout history didn't fight their dogs in order to obtain the best guardian. They let nature take its course.
Dog fighting is a tradition in that part of the world, nothing we can do about it from here. But let us not pretend it's a necessary evil. 
And there is more to being a good livestock guardian dog than just be strong, they also have to be intelligent, have a low prey drive, be stable and sound of mind etc..

The Boz Shepherd is a stunning breed and I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures/videos and reading more stories about them. However the whole talk about dog fights is really doing their reputation no good so I hope all that will one day stop.


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## Monster Malak

I do understand the passionate opinions about the practice of dog fighting in Turkey. I also feel that the nature of this practice has changed over time.

But to say that because of this practice, the dogs would not make good Livestock Guardians seems to be in contrary to their well established abilities. This is a practice that has taken place for countless generations, and the dog we have today is the result of such selection. The regional breeds of dogs from Turkey are some of the most versatile dogs used as LGDs. They maintain strong connections to the shepherds and families, are gentle with the stock, and are dot overly dog aggressive.

Regardless of the use or exploitations that a breed has endured in the past, it is the path that they will be taken down in the future that matters. The Boz Shepherd community in the USA is forming a Breed Association to help direct and unify the breeders and enthusiast to assist and direct responsible and ethical breeding of the Boz. (There are aprox 33 Boz in the USA at this time, with another 6 in the process of importation.) The main goal of the Association will be breeding for health, function and temperament.
Many unique practices will be utilized to accomplish this, and try to maintain the unique combination of abitities and qualities in the Boz.

Here is a link to many pictures of Boz, in Turkey and here in the USA. http://naturalbornguardians.com/photo-gallery/


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## MountainDogs

Yes this dog fighting or "dog testing" as they call it in Turkey or in former Soviet Union when LGD's are fought has got much worse/bloody over the years.
The people I have talked to told me negative stories about using Central Asian shepherds and different Turkish shepherds from direct fighting lines.
But I myself have deliberetly no experience with LGD's from these fighting lines (I stay away from such lines) so I can't speak from experience here.
When people buy dogs from these dog fighters they in a way support the dog fights with that money. 
So in my opinion it is best to support breeders that actually treat their dogs well, health test them and temperament test them without putting them to fight other dogs.


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## kramogul

Purplebumblebee said:


> I would like to point out the first dog in that photo is a Kangal. As far as temper on these dogs, they are believed to be breed from Aksaray Malakli and Kangal's so I would watch out on what children and strangers you let pet your dogs without supervision, they contain absolutely no sighthound genetics. Prey drive is not necessarily breed down from the dogs, it is low mostly because of there use to guard sheep and goats however if they are hungry they may go after rabbits or other small-medium size animals. Nice looking dogs by the way.


It's interesting reading the historical details that yourself and monstermalak discuss regarding the Boz. Be it clear that the Boz is certainly a breed of it's own, as i have a Boz and have friends with Kengal/Boz mixes. Aside from the historical land race breed talk, which i have little knowledge about, your concern with the Boz around strangers/children is unwarranted. Perhaps with your Kengal's, this is necessary, but with Boz you get a far more intelligent animal; an animal that has the ability to discern friend from foe natuarally. If Boz is uncertain with a childs behavior, Boz will simply and gracefully excuse themselves from the arean. With a potential confrontation, Boz has an inate ability to apply what is necessary to thrwart a potential altercation, but is constantly ready to be a quick reaction force for those they protect. Because of the physical presence that Boz exhibits, very few dogs/predators, and the unruly humans will want to aggrevate a Boz to the next level. Boz has it's own set of Rules of Engagement. Boz will always give fair warning when an uncertain situation presents itself. We too have a border collie on our farm. Mt Nesta my Boz will make it clear to the collie when she isn't satisfied with a situation, but she has never attacked the collie. All it takes is a stern look or a growl, and Rileypup submits. Tempermant in the Boz is unmatched to any other land race breed that i've seen, and that is what makes the Ufra Mtn Region Boz, a Boz. While the Kengal has a load of positive aspects as a guardian dog, they simply can't compete when it comes to temperment. This isn't a breed where maintaining dominance is necessary, Boz has natural manners and therefore doesn't need to be dominated. It's like comparing a Delta Force operator to a 19 year old 1st Infantry division operator. Boz is naturally mature well beyond their age. Kram


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## kramogul

you can't imagine the temperment of the Boz until you experience it for yourself. Extremely submissive, yet giant. Mt Nesta, our Boz has never jumped up onto a single sole. She is very proper in her disposition, it's quite shocking! It's important that people don't mistake other land race breeds with Boz, as the temperment isn't comparable. Having said all that, Boz is always on alert, but will only apply the necessay posture to thwart a would be adversary. Coyote's don't want anything to do with her, as she could easily take on a dozen coyotes at a time. The temperment tests that the Turks put these creatures through is very important. They are looking for that controlled aggression, the temperment that sets Boz apart.


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## kramogul

Andrew, 
I would encourage you to visit my farm and my Boz Shepherd. Guarenteed, you'll immediately see a stark difference in temperment from the Kengals. There simply isn't any comparison to a 100% Boz temperment. I'm on Whidbey Island if you ever want to swing through and visit, feel free.
Mark.


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## kramogul

Unfortuneatly, in Turkey breed stock is determined by fighting. It's that simple. Do I agree with it, it's not for me to deside, it's their culture... In Korea, a puppy is considered a delicassy, do I agree with eating dogs, not necessarily. People who've not travelled abroad, and i'm certainly not suggesting you haven't, need too to fully understand cultural differences. The Turkish Boz Shepherd Association has set up strict breeding by-laws for selecting breed stock, much more humane. Dog fighting in Turkey is practised for reasons that differ from what Michael Vick and his uneducated cronies are/were engaged in. Herders in Turkey want to ensure that only the strongest baddest k9's are breed to be able to handle packs of wolves. They have a vested interest in determining which animals are the badest. I don't condone it, but am glad i can objectively see what is culturally taking place.


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## kramogul

MountainDogs said:


> I never said flock guardians should be bred to be good family pet and a great neighborhood dog if that's what you meant. We have other dog breeds that would fit that description perfectly so there is no reason to try and soften the flock guardian breeds.
> What I said was that fighting dogs should not be seen as a selecting tool to obtain the best livestock guardian.
> I come from a rural area originally, where my grandparents and their grandparents before them have all used flock guardian dogs to protect their animals.
> No body I knew had to fight their dogs in order to get the best guardian. The conditions back then were really harsh and only the toughest, most intelligent dogs would be kept and these dogs would then pass on their good genes.
> 
> In fact on these so called dog tournaments most people who fight their dogs are city people with a lot of money. And most of their dogs have never seen a sheep or a cow in their life.
> There is a beautiful segment on "Dogs with Jobs" about a Maremmano who fought off wolves, bears and wild boars. And I believe at one point the Italian shepherd said his Maremmano killed a wolf.
> Do you think that Italian shepherd fights his dogs? Of course not.
> My point is, most shepherds throughout history didn't fight their dogs in order to obtain the best guardian. They let nature take its course.
> Dog fighting is a tradition in that part of the world, nothing we can do about it from here. But let us not pretend it's a necessary evil.
> And there is more to being a good livestock guardian dog than just be strong, they also have to be intelligent, have a low prey drive, be stable and sound of mind etc..
> 
> The Boz Shepherd is a stunning breed and I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures/videos and reading more stories about them. However the whole talk about dog fights is really doing their reputation no good so I hope all that will one day stop.


Yes,it's unfortunate that people want to slander the breed. It's unfair to the breed. People won't know the truth until they meet a Boz, then it's simple. Everyone that meets my Boz falls in love..


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## ZoiBlu

Not to try to go off topic. But going back to the original photos. I wasn't thinking where's the saddle, nor to compare them to what dogs I commonly know. I was thinking... Thank goodness I don't have to clean up the yard after them. I have a small dog and a puppy right now so I can still use sandwich bags or plastic bags from the store. That would be one big bag for that pile!! lol.


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## MountainDogs

kramogul said:


> Unfortuneatly, in Turkey breed stock is determined by fighting. It's that simple. Do I agree with it, it's not for me to deside, it's their culture... In Korea, a puppy is considered a delicassy, do I agree with eating dogs, not necessarily. People who've not travelled abroad, and i'm certainly not suggesting you haven't, need too to fully understand cultural differences. The Turkish Boz Shepherd Association has set up strict breeding by-laws for selecting breed stock, much more humane. Dog fighting in Turkey is practised for reasons that differ from what Michael Vick and his uneducated cronies are/were engaged in. Herders in Turkey want to ensure that only the strongest baddest k9's are breed to be able to handle packs of wolves. They have a vested interest in determining which animals are the badest. I don't condone it, but am glad i can objectively see what is culturally taking place.


These lies can perhaps trick folks who know very little about livestock guardian dogs and folks who have never lived in/visited that part of the world.
Fighting dogs is and has always been done for entertainment purposes in Turkey and in Central Asian countries. No ifs or buts about it.
It was usually done during the winter months, when people had very little to do or on annual fairs, where other animals were fought too.
They call it dog wrestling, testing, lots of names just so it would seem less barbaric.

Now this inhumane, illegal tradition has boomed into a huge profitable business. The participants are making a lot of money through these unfortunate dogs.
Also, the participants are almost always city people that like to gamble and fight animals. Whether those are dogs, cocks, bulls you name it.
As I have pointed out in one of my previous posts, most of these dogs used for dog fights have never seen livestock in their life, let alone guard it. 
And in fact, individual dogs from fighting lines, regardless of the breed, often make very poor choice for an LGD.
I know of Central Asian shepherd males from fighting lines that are so dog aggressive, they even attack females in heat.
Everything I just said is a well known fact with long time and reputable LGD breeders, they are very unhappy about these developments. 

You sir, are not objective. You are trying to sell Boz shepherds, so of course you will come here to defend the practice of how they are being selected and defend the guy who designed the Boz shepherd breed. 
The very infamous dog fighter in Turkey.
Livestock guardian breeds have historically always been selected through only 1 way: by surprise, surprise having them actually protect the livestock.
A stable, sound dog that will function well in a pack, be a team player, not bother the livestock, stick closely to the livestock, courageously confront predators etc is the dog a shepherd/çoban is looking for.
So there are a lot of attributes a shepherd is looking for and it's not easy to breed a good LGD.
In such unforgiving environment only the toughest dogs could survive, and therefor there was never a need for shepherds to fight their dogs in order to determine who has the best LGD lol
Real shepherds don't participate on a dog fighting tournament to find the best livestock guardian dog. To even suggest something like that is laughable. 
Besides, a dog that just wants to fight with other LGD's in its pack is a liability and of no use to the shepherd. 
I will repeat what I said: dogs being fought was always done by immoral folks for entertainment purposes, whether it was done in Turkey, U.S., Kazakhstan or anywhere else in the world.

People who fight dogs belong in jail.
People who buy dogs from people they know are fighting dogs are just as guilty because they are actively supporting them.
Period, end of story.

I invite everyone who wants to know more about the Boz shepherds, to look up a Facebook page called "Boycott Bozkennel".

And to people who will still repeat the lies about how these dog fights are a part of an ancient shepherding tradition (and I have explained above why they are nothing but lies), maybe I should remind you that in ancient Rome they used to throw humans to lions and tigers.
So following that logic, maybe we should reinstall that tradition too, any volunteers?


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## MountainDogs

kramogul said:


> Yes,it's unfortunate that people want to slander the breed. It's unfair to the breed. People won't know the truth until they meet a Boz, then it's simple. Everyone that meets my Boz falls in love..


The problem with this breed are the people behind it.
Yes they are stunning and yes they are gorgeous, but the more I get to know about the people behind this breed (these dog fighters and dog fight supporters), the more I pity this breed.


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## RyanJ

Wow, they're amazing! I've never heard of that breed, but now I want to go look them up and learn more.


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## BernerMax

Monster Malak said:


> Thanks Everyone!
> 
> I admired these dogs on the internet for years. Thinking they were Kangals all the time. Wasn't until 6 years later that I finally found someone with the connections to (GET) some out of Turkey. As it is illegal to take them out of the country. So after a leap of faith and risk of wireing money overseas to someone I have never spoken with, I have my DREAM dogs.
> 
> Can see many more pictures at monstermalak.com.
> Hope you enjoy them.


Thats wonderful that that person was trustworthy (must have been a true dog person, like you!).. and a great story, and great dogs! I am in Love!!!! It would be great to know about them-- do they need acreage like other LGDs or can they make do with a home on a couple acres (like we got!), etc....


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## hueyeats

Monster Malak said:


> This is MONSTER, our 10 month (in picture) Boz Shepherd Pup. Cant tell you how great of a dog he is. Sweet, loving, intelligent, but will protect us from any threat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Geisha, our new import Boz Shepherd. 18 month old female, and hopefully girlfriend of Monster.
> Power and Presence do not come close to describing her. I am going to experiment with weight pulling,,, as opposed to us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three Boz in a first introduction Tail Sniff Off!!! Was a tense moment.


Nice!!!!!!!:rockon:
I loooove XLdoggies!!!
Love love monster pups!
:whoo:

Roman just turn 9 months now and weigh in 100lb at 8 months.








































Sleeping monster


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## hueyeats

Monster Malak said:


> This is MONSTER, our 10 month (in picture) Boz Shepherd Pup. Cant tell you how great of a dog he is. Sweet, loving, intelligent, but will protect us from any threat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Geisha, our new import Boz Shepherd. 18 month old female, and hopefully girlfriend of Monster.
> Power and Presence do not come close to describing her. I am going to experiment with weight pulling,,, as opposed to us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three Boz in a first introduction Tail Sniff Off!!! Was a tense moment.


Nice!!!!!!!:rockon:
I loooove XLdoggies!!!
Love love monster pups!
:whoo:

Roman just turn 9 months now and weigh in 100lb at 8 months.
View attachment 62610
View attachment 62618

View attachment 62626
View attachment 62642

View attachment 62602
View attachment 62650


He is about 4-5 inches higher than the dining table now... can easily grap food off the table hehehehh... he doesn't though, looks for permission first.
Sleeping monster
View attachment 62634


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## hueyeats

Huge big lovies.


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## hueyeats

MountainDogs said:


> The problem with this breed are the people behind it.
> Yes they are stunning and yes they are gorgeous, but the more I get to know about the people behind this breed (these dog fighters and dog fight supporters), the more I pity this breed.


Not a supporter of dog fighting either... 
I agree that the owners (people behind these dogs) should be responsible & have to be educated about responsible ownership.

I want Roman to be mild like my last dog... never aggressive.


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## BernerMax

MountainDogs said:


> The problem with this breed are the people behind it.
> Yes they are stunning and yes they are gorgeous, but the more I get to know about the people behind this breed (these dog fighters and dog fight supporters), the more I pity this breed.


Wow I just read your posts, MountainDogs, now I dont know what to think....


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## MountainDogs

I can only advise people to do a lot of research before they buy a puppy, regardless of the breed.

As for the Boz Shepherds, they are a breed designed by the owner of the Boz Kennel. Google Boz Kennel, google a Facebook page called "Boycott Bozkennel" and you will get to know a lot more.
There are several video's out there of the owner of the Boz Kennel where he's fighting his Boz against other dogs. There are a lot of pictures of his dogs covered with scars from dog fights.
I am not going to post any links, because a) dog fights disgust me and because b) people should do their own research. Everything I'm saying is public knowledge
I know I've done my research and what I found out greatly disturbs me.

Then you have people importing these dogs from that dog fighter into the U.S., where they promote them as these super livestock guardian dogs and on several forums they are actively trying to downplay the practice of dog fighting or "testing" as some like to call it.
Dog fighting is wrong, immoral and illegal.
When one buys dogs & import dogs from dog fighters, then that person is just as guilty because that person supports these dog fighters with its money. 

My last word of advice: fighting livestock guardian dogs is not a necessary evil. It is only done by animal abusers.
Avoid anyone who claims otherwise.
If from all LGD breeds one is specifically interested in Central Asian Ovcharka's (shepherd dogs), different Turkish livestock guardian breeds or in the aboriginal Caucasian Ovcharka's (these aboriginal dogs are known as Nagazi, Gampr, North Caucasian Volkodav etc), please watch our for the fighting lines.
Look only for breeders that are ethical, are breeding for health, working abilities and a stable temperament.
And above all, research, research, research


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## hueyeats

^^^ITA!

I cannot imagine Roman being mean & agressive in anyways!
He is first & foremost my indoor pet, beloved & spoiled (food-wise esp.).
We only ever need his bark (as guard), but never to attack anyone coming in the house.
Its daddy's job to defend, not Roman's.


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## MountainDogs

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a breed that is very protective and can be a serious threat to (human) intruders.
No dog breed by itself is a problem, just the people behind it (breeders/owners)
I only have a problem with people fighting their dogs. Which is animal abuse but on top of that it also destroys the mentality of livestock guardian breeds that are supposed to work well in a pack.

And I'm not just talking about the Boz Shepherds here, but any other breed that has been used for dog fights. Unfortunately there are a lot of breeds that are or have at one point been used for that.
Like for instance I know people who import Tosa's and Bully Kutta's puppies from people who fight their dogs, post the pictures of their newly acquired puppies on forums and everyone is like: oh how cute, congratulations.
No one asks: why would you buy a puppy from a dog fighter? Why are you supporting dog fighters with your money if you claim to be an animal lover?

When people buy a dog from someone they know is fighting dogs, then they are just as guilty and immoral. Even if they themselves don't fight dogs.
The only reason why bad breeders still exist (just think about how many puppymillers are out there) is because sadly buyers too often don't care enough to make an educated, ethical decision.


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