# Rescue Vent



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I just wanted to make a quick vent about a rescue my friend is dealing with and to ask for advice. 

A really good friend of mine and his wife are looking for a dog in the Albany, NY area. He's already tried for one or two dogs, and had them adopted out from under him because the other adopters have fenced in yards and he doesn't. The rescues did tell him that his application was good, and he was in line for the dog, and at the last minute said they adopted to someone else on the basis of the yard alone.

A couple weeks ago he went to an adoption event and fell in love with a year old spaniel/border collie type mix. They really liked this dog, and put in an application. The rescue waited a week or so before they processed his application, but they eventually did and called his references and he was good to go. He was supposed to have a home visit on Tuesday with the dog, and if it went well they would just leave the dog there (which I already think is silly - I don't think the dog should be present at the home visit). This meant that he had to buy all of the supplies because they would want to see them when they did the visit.

Tuesday came and went and now the dog has been pulled off of Petfinder and they still haven't called him or returned any of his phone calls. So now he has a crate and lots of supplies specifically for this dog, and nobody will even call him back. I'm so frustrated for him! This is why people decide to just go to a pet store and get a puppy mill dog.

I think he should write an email to the rescue about his experience, but I'm not sure if it even matters. Anything else he should do?

Can anyone recommend any good rescues in Albany? This is the second one he's worked with and neither have been good experiences. I've worked with a rescue in Connecticut that is wonderful, but unfortunately they have an hour or so radius to who they will adopt to.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

He has my sympathies. It's really annoying to be treated that way.  

I hope they can find a good rescue, or maybe visit a shelter or pound?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

They're planning to have kids in a couple years, so they really want a dog who is in a foster home with kids, rather than a shelter. That definitely limits their options, but they've been so open. Their only qualifications are 1-5 years old and good with kids and other dogs. Otherwise, they've looked at everything from bully breeds to labs to collie mixes. I didn't think they'd have such a tough time.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Huh, you wouldn't say. :/ Are there many rescues in their area?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think there are a decent number, but I'm not sure how many do foster vs shelter programs and also how many will adopt to someone without a fenced yard. I know some will bend that rule and others are firm.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Has he tried any breed specific rescues? Often they will have mixes of their breeds as well (or mixes that come in with the other dogs).

These types are usually run out of club members homes, and are often fostered in other people's homes if the coordinator can't handle all of them.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's a good idea! I don't think he has a breed in mind, but I'm sure he can start a search with some of the medium sized types that he's liked so far.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> That's a good idea! I don't think he has a breed in mind, but I'm sure he can start a search with some of the medium sized types that he's liked so far.


Well Like I said most take in mixes of their breeds. So if he picks a certain breed, and rolls with that he is likely to find something, even if it is not purebred.

Like here is listings for one Lab rescue in New York City

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?shelter_id=NY599


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Also don't know which rescues he's looked at but, I just inputted some of the specifications and came up with these dogs

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search...25&location=Albany,+NY&lon=-73.7567&pet_breed

Didn't specify breed though.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Are you sure the local shelter doesn't foster? Mine has a shelter with kennels and a network of fosters, too. It might be worth asking. 

Plus, you kinda gotta get assertive with rescues sometimes. I had to call numerous times to get attention. I did get a dog out of it. 

I also don't agree dogs shouldn't be at home visits. A lot of rescues and fosters are on the outskirts of areas where the rules about dogs aren't so strict. The rescue had to drive 1.5 hours round trip to deliver kabota, I don't think they should have to do that twice for what is often a formality (assuming you were honest.)


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

My sister had a similar problem - she traveled 2 hours for 2 different dogs/rescues and they were pulled from her - so she went to a pet store and bought a dog - probably happens more often than not.

13 years ago I went to adopt a dog at a local Petsmart and there were none there. We were all excited about adopting a dog and felt let down that neither dogs nor rescues were there but the folks at Petsmart gave us the numbers of some of the rescues that usually go to them. I called one, got a woman on the phone and asked what type of dogs/puppies are available - she had no clue. OK, could she find out as I don't want certain breeds - no, but when I come I have to bring 3 personal references. I tell her I don't want to adopt a child I want to adopt a dog and I will not give out the name of friends to do so. We hung up. I make arrangements with another rescue on a Sunday morning and this woman calls me up early Sunday morning and wants to know if I'm coming by and she badmouths the other rescue ... I let her have it. We adopted Maggie from the other rescue and it was a great experience.

I adopted Zoey a few month ago at a municipal shelter and it was so easy.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> Are you sure the local shelter doesn't foster? Mine has a shelter with kennels and a network of fosters, too. It might be worth asking.
> 
> Plus, you kinda gotta get assertive with rescues sometimes. I had to call numerous times to get attention. I did get a dog out of it.
> 
> I also don't agree dogs shouldn't be at home visits. A lot of rescues and fosters are on the outskirts of areas where the rules about dogs aren't so strict. The rescue had to drive 1.5 hours round trip to deliver kabota, I don't think they should have to do that twice for what is often a formality (assuming you were honest.)


I don't know, I live about an hour away from him now, so I'm not personally familiar with the rescue and shelter situation up there or who he's contacted outside of the two he almost got dogs from. He did badger them quite a bit, so I'm not sure what else he could've done in this particular situation, but I have been advising him to call more than he wanted to. 

I would agree with a dog coming to the home visit if it was far away if course, but this rescue is out of the same city, so it would be no more than a 20min drive to anywhere. It just seems strange to me that they won't tell you that you have the dog, or even if it's in hold for you, yet they expect you to stock up on supplies. At least they should have had the dog on hold for him pending the home visit. They weren't upfront that they were considering other people and he might not get the dog at all. 

I guess I find the not calling part the most unacceptable part. At least if they had communicated he would've wanted to work with them and maybe get the next dog that comes along, but now he doesn't want to deal with them and is back to square one.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Rescues are becoming extremely popular in our area. About 10 years ago our local shelter teamed up to build a new building with the county animal control facility filling out the other half of the building. Sounded great at the time. The strays would spend their first 5 days in Animal Control pens waiting to be claimed, then moved to the Humane Society Shelter across the hall for adoption. At the same time the Humane Society chose to become a no-kill shelter. I wuit volunteering when 9-% of the dogs in the shelter were poorly bred and unadoptable pit bulls. Nothing against the breed, but it was clearly a sinking ship. So that began the formation of non-profit rescue groups here. They would relieve the overcrowded kennels at the Humane Society and turn around to charge $200-300 per dog if you want to adopt from them. And they scour the shelter and strays on a daily basis for the most adoptable dogs. 

I found someone in my neighborhood who started one of these rescues. Since I knew an elderly couple who were ready to have a dog afer the death of their last one, I asked the rescue gal if I could come over to see whatshe might have. The house and barn were drop-dead gorgeous! Being that her tract home in suburbia was built 35 years ago like mine, I was surprised at the total upgrade literally within a year. She explained that as a non-profit rescue she just couldn't have potential adopters seeing her house and furniture the way "it used to be", the kitchen needed a complete upgrade to allow her to prepare meals for special needs dogs, the old barn just wouldn't do for kennels so she had a new one built, etc. And it was apparant that her family was living at a much higher station in life by the personal objects in the home. 

She had the cream of the crop of adoptable dogs, all from the shelter (where they are vaccinated and speutered when they are turned over from Animal Control, so no cost for health care on the rescue's part), the kennels were acceptably clean but there was no fenced pasture for the dogs to run free on her multi-acre property...and the cheapest dog was $300! "All to cover the expenses of my non-profit rescue...otherwise they would still be in that overcrowded shelter, noooooooo."

So the shelter has the most un-adoptable dogs available for $25-75, the breeders charge $750 and up for a well-bred dog (and are definitely not making any profit on puppies), and the rescues are charging $300 for the desirable breeds. The local pet store has puppy mill bred pups for around $100. It would seem like a good compromise to the consumer who jsut wants a companion without all the baggage of a shelter dog.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Sorry to hear about that... Getting a dog from a rescue can be really tough, especially in areas that don't have big overpopulation problems (like Toronto and I suppose NY too). The good thing is you just have to go through this once and then you get the dog for many, many years.

I think what your friend is going through is actually pretty standard. I applied for about 6 dogs before I got Pete which was really, really frustrating - you would settle on one get your hopes up and then be turned down. It honestly started to feel like I wasn't even looking for the right dog, just a dog I would get approved for. It can be disheartening when you move farther and farther down your list of choices. 

The first rescue just never responded to my application... at all. The next took 2 weeks to tell me the foster family was keeping him. The next one adopted him to another applicant (who applied minutes before me) and despite my very polite and solicitous emails got really catty with me. Another decided (for no clear reason) that we 'weren't a good fit'. A fifth denied us because we _didn't_ use a crate and the last one because we wouldn't allow our dogs up on the furniture. 

As rescue becomes more and more popular the private rescues can and do get picky with adopters. I think for the most part they are doing their best to match the right home with the right dog but Ill admit that sometimes it all seems a little arbitrary. I don't have much advice since it sounds like the most responsible choice for your friend is to go through a rescue with a foster system. I sympathize.... If its any consolation soon they will have a great dog and can forget about frustrating rescue people and just enjoy the dog. Good luck and tell them thanks for rescuing.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

That's really rough. My parents have had mostly rescued dogs (with the exception of a Kuvas and our lab in nearly 30 years of dog ownership) and my mom used to work with great dane rescue and places can be so particular!

I know in 2 years or so, if my boyfriend and I decide for a second dog, our options will be limited. I would really like to rescue (since our dog now is from a breeder), but I know that we will have a hell of a time of it because Lincoln will not be neutered. So, that pretty much leaves animal control MAYBE. (Well, we also want our second dog to be "hypoallergenic" and be okay with cats, so that limits it further).

I can't imagine what your friend is going through. I would be beyond upset if dogs kept being taken away from me. I know a lot of rescues are particular about fencing, but will allow dogs to go to homes that have "deer fencing." I'm not sure what it's actually called, but it's metal stakes in the ground with a plastic mesh "fence" tacked on. Depending on your friends situation, they might be able to put on up inexpensively and have a wider selection of dogs.

Has he looked at CL? There are usually many adult dogs there for a variety of reasons. As long as they ask a lot of questions (some ads are not honest) it might be an option.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes I was also turned away because my vets records weren't "complete" enough, like they didn have enough history on my dogs, because all I ever went in for was shots & HW meds (thank The Lord) I think that would pin me as a GOOD dog owner ... That I DIDN'T have my dogs at the vet all the time ... But I guess not. 

So I went with Texas cattle dog rescue again ... Oh well, it was the other rescues loss, cuz I am a good doggie home


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I heard from my friend last night and the rescue finally called him back to say that they gave the dog to someone else on Monday. The strangest part is that he talked to the lady on Monday around noon and she said they were still on for Tuesday. Why lie? She must have known that there was another potential home visit and she could've told my friend that. 

Oh well. He's going to try with the first rescue again and see if they get another dog in that he likes.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Honestly, I'm a big supporter of rescues, but with the crap most of them are pulling all the time, I completely understand why a lot of people would rather go spend $1500 at the pet store for a "Maltipoo" or whatever.

Before I got Mo, I was looking into a lot of breed rescues. Most of them were charging $700+ for elderly dogs they couldn't even confirm were actually purebred. All the ones who were reasonably priced wouldn't even consider shipping a dog to Newfoundland (even though no doubt the breeders in their breed club have no problems shipping an 8-week-old puppy to Germany.) I got to talking to the lady at the Papillon parent club's rescue, that one I actually thought was going to work out. I told her all about my house and my training and all the sports I do, and she was over the moon and telling me all about how they had a few dogs she thought would be perfect for me. I even met one of the rescue's representatives at a show, and we were talking pretty much the whole day. And then suddenly I just wasn't getting any e-mails back. No "I don't think you're right for us," no anything. Just got totally ignored.

So yes. I COMPLETELY understand why pet stores and puppy mills are able to sell so many overpriced dogs. If I was less educated than I am, I probably would have, too. Most rescues seem to spend more time going out of their way just to jerk people around than they do actually helping dogs.

I ultimately ended up getting my puppy from the SPCA, and I think that's the closest I'm ever going to come to trying to get a dog from a rescue again.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Ugh, this is what gives rescue a bad name. There was an interesting article about the same sort of thing on Slate last year. I think most of these people have their hearts in the right place (although some of these groups seem to be really just glorified animal hoarding), but the implementation is just really lacking sometimes.

That said, there are great groups out there. I will add that with the rescue group we got Biscuit from (which is extremely active here in DC, they adopt out 30-50 dogs a week), they do insist on a home visit, and we ended up applying and getting "pre-approved" and THEN picking out dog. That put us at the head of the line, so to speak. If your friend can do something like that, maybe things will go more smoothly next time.

I think it's weird that they wanted to see all the dog supplies at the home visit. At our home visit, it was more like "do you have dangling electrical wires or other obvious hazards," not "are you perfectly prepared and is your home immaculate." They won't let you take the dog home without a collar and ID tag, but aside from that it's your problem. Couldn't your friend have gone to the pet store after the dog was home?


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## CritterPoor (Aug 4, 2011)

Ugh, I have a friend who is starting to look at dogs. She is looking for an adult that has been fostered and good with kids. I am not looking forward to the drama that goes along with rescues.

*elrohwen* we are in the same location as you (Hudson Valley) so hopefully the rescues aren't so ridiculous here.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

To be honest, I don't think I'd ever consent to a home check. That's just too much. Someone else put it pretty well... I'm adopting a dog, not a child. I'm not spending ten grand to get a kid shipped over from Russia or something.

I can't even think of any breeders I know who do home checks. And if I wouldn't do it for a breeder, I sure as heck wouldn't do it for a rescue.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

On a similar note: I posted on FB in my ACD group that I was starting my search for a puppy (this time from a breeder I mean come on, only TWO of my dogs EVER have been from breeders, all the others were either taken in or from shelters/rescues ... I think I have paid my dues :/ I still donate food/money when I can) & some of them actually have me a GUILT TRIP for wanting a pup from a breeder! 

Ugh


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

I had a talk with my Vet when my sister had the issues she told me she was turned down along with one of her Vet Techs at a rescue ... that's some high standards, LOL!!!

I said it before - I have a lot of respect for the people who donate their time and lives to help these animal but I think some of these rescues take it to the extreme. There is a rescue not too far from me that asks for $25 up front when you put in an application and I asked why. The person responding to my email was insulted and snippy that I asked. My response to her was that a lot of rescues decline people all the time and I believe that it a way of making money on unsuspecting people ... $25 x 100 people a month = $2500 extra; she came back not as snippy and explained that it stops people from just putting in an application; I know it did for me. We also tried to adopt a dog from another rescue - at no time was it brought up that it was a surrender that was still living with the owners - well the owners decided to keep the dog ... I'm OK with that but it should have been disclosed. Even at the municipal shelter I found some things not 100% right but we did get Zoey so all is good.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

TorachiKatashi said:


> To be honest, I don't think I'd ever consent to a home check. That's just too much. Someone else put it pretty well... I'm adopting a dog, not a child. I'm not spending ten grand to get a kid shipped over from Russia or something.
> 
> I can't even think of any breeders I know who do home checks. And if I wouldn't do it for a breeder, I sure as heck wouldn't do it for a rescue.


A home check is literally nothing more than seeing that you live exactly where you claim to live. We don't come over and go through your garbage and inspect every room.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> A home check is literally nothing more than seeing that you live exactly where you claim to live. We don't come over and go through your garbage and inspect every room.


Exactly! 

You wouldn't believe how many people LIE on their applications. People will say they have no other pets... but when we show up to do the home visit, there's a dog in the yard and two cats in the window. People will say they have a fence... but when we show up to do the home visit, there's no fence at all. People will say they own their home... but when we show up for the home visit, the landlord is there to pick up the rent check.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

sizzledog said:


> Exactly!
> 
> You wouldn't believe how many people LIE on their applications. People will say they have no other pets... but when we show up to do the home visit, there's a dog in the yard and two cats in the window. People will say they have a fence... but when we show up to do the home visit, there's no fence at all. People will say they own their home... but when we show up for the home visit, the landlord is there to pick up the rent check.


I've done home visits for the rescue where we got my dog (I volunteer now) and I have never seen anything like that or even heard of it. I'm sure it happens but it's certainly not the norm. I would say for this group, the home visit is more of a second interview and an opportunity for education. It gets someone in there to talk about the dog and make sure the adopters have actually thought about the nitty gritty, like where the dog will sleep, stuff like that. It also shows the adopters are serious. It's rare for people to get turned down because of the home visit (or otherwise). The group will maybe say, this adopter and this dog aren't a good match, but it's more unusual for people to get turned down completely. That said, there are other groups in the area that get to the same result without home visit.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

hamandeggs said:


> I've done home visits for the rescue where we got my dog (I volunteer now) and I have never seen anything like that or even heard of it. I'm sure it happens but it's certainly not the norm. I would say for this group, the home visit is more of a second interview and an opportunity for education. It gets someone in there to talk about the dog and make sure the adopters have actually thought about the nitty gritty, like where the dog will sleep, stuff like that. It also shows the adopters are serious. It's rare for people to get turned down because of the home visit (or otherwise). The group will maybe say, this adopter and this dog aren't a good match, but it's more unusual for people to get turned down completely. That said, there are other groups in the area that get to the same result without home visit.


I wish we were that lucky... alas, about 10% of the home visits I do end in denial due to people lying on their applications.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Well there is a rescue group in my area who's only goal seems to be getting dogs adopted and doesn't screen well, I've even heard from someone else they won't always take the dog back either. This is the opposite extreme and neither is good. My friend who I was trying to talk out of getting a dog knowing she'd resent the time commitment. She went to an adoption event and told them she wasn't ready to go home with a dog yet and still went home with a one year old husky. No home check, no checking vet reference, or anything.

It certainly sucks that these groups aren't being up front with you BIL and frustrates me hearing stories of rescues being so hard to deal with. Though I don't agree with a home check being a hardship. Most rescues I've looked into in my area will let you get per-approved so when you find the dog you like its just a issue of a meet and greet with the family and if you have another dog they meet as well. I know my rescue I work with isn't first come first serve in terms of applications but they don't often get multiple apps on the same dog either. In that case they do pick the family that is the best fit for the dog in question, a fence isn't a make or break factor either. Nice to have but not required.

Best of luck to your BIL I hope it works out for them soon.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hamandeggs, they expected him to have all of the supplies ready to go when they brought the dog for the home visit. In cases like this where the rescue is close by, I think it makes more sense to do a home visit up front and approve the person, then let them pick a dog. I'm not sure if the first rescue (that he's going back to) does it that way or not. 

Critterpoor, I don't have experience with the HV rescues, but DAWS in Danbury is awesome. I have friends in the Hudson Valley who got dogs from them and had a great experience. I volunteered there for a couple years and it was a nice organization.


And I'm with those who said a home visit isn't a big deal. He bought his house recently and has a lot of contractors in and out and the rescue said that wouldn't be a problem (I know it was something he was nervous about). No, my breeder didnt do a home visit, but she looked me up on zillow and knew exactly what my house was like (there were lots of pictures still up from when it was listed).


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sizzledog said:


> Exactly!
> 
> You wouldn't believe how many people LIE on their applications. People will say they have no other pets... but when we show up to do the home visit, there's a dog in the yard and two cats in the window. People will say they have a fence... but when we show up to do the home visit, there's no fence at all. People will say they own their home... but when we show up for the home visit, the landlord is there to pick up the rent check.


The objection to home inspections always crack me up. I mean, maybe there are some rescues that would like a tour and search of your home, but I've never been involved in a home visit that was any thing more than seeing you physically live at that address and if you claim to have a 6 foot fence you actually DO have a 6 foot fence. No interrogation, no forensic analysis of your home, nothing.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Sounds exactly like the shelter I just quit. Adoptions require nothing more than cash. You can even adopt a dog for someone else without them being present. The opposite end of the crap spectrum to the too strict rescues.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm sorry for all of the negative experiences you have all had with rescues. Rescues vary widely and have different goals and different set ups, from shelter type organizations to networks of foster homes to shoddy one man operations. Some are organized, some are not, and some have crazy restrictions that make them seem like they don't want to let any of the animals go.

I work for an animal rescue organization in Atlanta, though I am on the "cat team" we have both cats and dogs. I had several negative experiences with rescue myself before becoming involved in one and I try to keep those experiences in mind when I am dealing with potential adopters.

The way our process goes, you fill out an app online or at one of our petco events and your app gets recieved by one person who checks for obvious red flags. If there are none, it gets forwarded to the person who checks references and the person fostering the animal you are looking to adopt at the same time (I am a foster and a reference checker/home visitor). From there it sometimes takes a couple of days to get in touch with all the references, sometimes not. As a foster, I like to go ahead and start communicating with the adopter, I tell them we are checking their references, ask if they have questions, tell them a little about the animal. When I get word that the references are checked or have checked them myself, I arrange a home visit. I do my own home visits for my fosters and personally I do bring the animal with me. Since I have been communicating with the adopter already through email or met them at an event, I consider it a formality.

At the home visit I am just looking to see that you live where you said you live (if you said house, it's a house not an apt, etc), that you're not a hoarder (never come accross one yet) and that you are prepared for the animal. I'm not leaving the cat if you don't have a litterbox yet for instance. I don't look around much, usually I come in and am invited to sit down, we take the cat out and let it look around, people usually start playing with the cat and I watch them interact, I say "lets show it where the litter/food is", everything is great, and I collect the money and signed contract and leave.

Whole process takes less than a week, in fact, I had an applicant on a cat yesterday at petco, I checked her app and references last night, and I'm doing a home check/cat drop off in an hour. If there is a waiting list you would be clearly informed and notified what # you are on the list (rarely happens).

To make a long post short b/c I have to go, the lack of communication is not good and the op should find a new rescue but not give up on rescue entirely!


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> A home check is literally nothing more than seeing that you live exactly where you claim to live. We don't come over and go through your garbage and inspect every room.


I guess what "home check" implies depends on the rescue. Someone else mentioned checking for "dangling wires" which to me would be way out of line.

The adoption process for Mozart was basically:

- Went in, looked at puppies, picked puppy out.
- Gave them my name, address, phone number, paid money.
- Took puppy home.

Took about half an hour. And that's about the extent I'd ever go to. If I was going to go through more than that, I'd go to a breeder.

I'm curious about the fences, though. Everyone mentions checking the fence like it's a big thing. I've never had a fenced yard, and I never will. Fences make lazy trainers, in my opinion.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

TorachiKatashi said:


> I guess what "home check" implies depends on the rescue. Someone else mentioned checking for "dangling wires" which to me would be way out of line.
> 
> The adoption process for Mozart was basically:
> 
> ...


1) I was the person who mentioned dangling wires. If I wasn't clear, I meant live exposed electrical wires. I was using that as an example of some extremely obvious and extremely unsafe condition we would probably notice right away. I would not be poking around the house pointing out the plug to your clock radio. Don't see how that's anything crazy. 

2) I have heard of some rescues that require a fenced yard for all dogs. I think that's nuts. However, I don't think it's nuts for a rescue to check for a fenced yard if that's what you said you had on your application, which is what I think most people on this thread are saying.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Amazing, I really don't know if having a fenced in yard makes one a lazy trainer. (I hope not) I do know that a fenced in yard is a great place after training to release a dog so he may get into some zoomies etc. Kind of a pressure release program. 

If a dog's training is started inside a building the next step could/would/should be starting dog work outside and since dogs do not generalize it would indeed be safer to start outside work in a fenced in area.

Even well trained dogs inside can do silly things outside and get injured. My opinion only.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

TorachiKatashi said:


> I guess what "home check" implies depends on the rescue. Someone else mentioned checking for "dangling wires" which to me would be way out of line.
> 
> The adoption process for Mozart was basically:
> 
> ...


I tend to err on the side of crazy individuals rather than organizations. If people are checking for "dangling wires" at a home check I am ending said home check and calling the organization. It's not a consent to search your home. 

The adoption process you describe is the same kind of evil as over zealous rescues. At least in your situation the dog ended up in a good place. It does not bode well with me that you can put down basic info and some cash and leave with a living creature. 

I don't know why it would be more worth while for a breeder dog, but OK. 

The fence was an example. If the rescue in particular you're looking at requires a fenced in yard, have a fenced in yard or look for a rescue that doesn't require it. Don't lie about it. I personally don't care if someone has a fenced in yard or not.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

About fences, the rescue I work with doesn't require them but there may be an individual dog who needs one for whatever reason. It's on a case by case basis. The rescue I adopted Shiner from adopted to me without a fence at the time also. Gotta say I love my fence now tho...it doesn't replace walks or training but it sure makes early morning potty time easier.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I find it a little odd that usually rescues who have 'escape artists' list a backyard and good fence as a big priority. I agree that if the dog is going to spend time in a backyard a good fence is necessary, but for a dog like that wouldn't it be much better to go to a home with no backyard at all? That way the dog must be properly leashed and supervised when he's outdoors and doesn't have the opportunity to escape, especially at first..... Not sure of the reasoning there...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

aiw said:


> I find it a little odd that usually rescues who have 'escape artists' list a backyard and good fence as a big priority. I agree that if the dog is going to spend time in a backyard a good fence is necessary, but for a dog like that wouldn't it be much better to go to a home with no backyard at all? That way the dog must be properly leashed and supervised when he's outdoors and doesn't have the opportunity to escape, especially at first..... Not sure of the reasoning there...


Yes indeed because escape artists giggle when he/she sees the fence and is laughing as they clear it.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I tend to err on the side of crazy individuals rather than organizations. If people are checking for "dangling wires" at a home check I am ending said home check and calling the organization. It's not a consent to search your home.
> 
> The adoption process you describe is the same kind of evil as over zealous rescues. At least in your situation the dog ended up in a good place. It does not bode well with me that you can put down basic info and some cash and leave with a living creature.
> 
> ...


You know, like I said, I've done home visits for a big rescue organization in DC as a volunteer (usually the visits are done by a volunteer who lives nearby, not by the adoption coordinator or foster, just for convenience), and while we're not poking around in people's closets, it does involve looking around the house a little bit and going through the questionnaire/checklist with the adopters takes about 30 minutes. They also require that the whole family be home (maybe to make sure everyone is board?). I'm sure this does present a barrier to some people, but I never thought it was anything unusual or more invasive than the home visit other rescues do. Y'all are making me think otherwise. Not sure how to feel about that. Weird.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm in the camp of not understanding the fence requirement. Sure, it's nice to have a fenced in yard for the owner's convenience, but if the owner is willing to take the dog out for potty breaks on a leash, why does the shelter care? I know plenty of dog owners who have fences and never exercise their dog, so it doesn't mean anything to the quality of care the dog will receive. My friend has struggled to find rescues that don't have this requirement, and it's sad that even when they say it's not an issue, they've passed him over as soon as somebody with a fence came along.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

wvasko said:


> Yes indeed because escape artists giggle when he/she sees the fence and is laughing as they clear it.


There is a dog at our shelter currently who likes to climb chain link fences, so he's not allowed to be outside in our dog runs and can only go for walks. It doesn't help that he can also jump more than 6 feet in the air from standing. I wish whoever adopts that dog the best of luck!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well having a fence requirement at all and requiring a home check to see if you have the fence you claimed you have are two completely separate issues. I think great and awful dog owners can have fences or not have fences, I personally find them a handy convenient tool in the city for letting the dogs, as wvasko said, have some safe zoomie and romping time. But the point of a home visit isn't what the individual rescue's policies about specific issues are or should be, it's to see with their own eyes that what the applicant says is true. It's a pain for those of us who tell the truth, but I don't think rescues would do it if they hadn't been burned in the past.

I've gotten dogs from rescues who just handed a dog over to whomever as long as the dog got a home, any home. I've gotten dogs from rescues that required a home visit. Honestly, the former creeped me out WAY more than the latter. The home visit was, as others have said, pretty much "yes you live here, you don't have 60 other dogs, you have the fence you said you do, the end." Really the only thing that really, really drives me crazy about rescues are the ones who do things like post URGENT NEEDS HOME OR FOSTER NOW dogs on Petfinder, then never ever return your emails or calls inquiring about them.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I've talked about our frustrations with trying to adopt a dog previously. I can understand certain requirements for specific dogs; however, we encountered numerous blanket requirements from almost every rescue we looked at. The short list
- fence, often specific height and type 
- previous dog ownership
- dog currently in home
- at least one stay-at-home owner

We eventually gave up and found a breeder who was thorough, but not nearly as restrictive as local rescues. (I suspect we had an easier time with the breeder because in my initial message to her, I explained that she had been recommended by three other reputable breeders I had contacted during my search.)



elrohwen said:


> I'm in the camp of not understanding the fence requirement. Sure, it's nice to have a fenced in yard for the owner's convenience, but if the owner is willing to take the dog out for potty breaks on a leash, why does the shelter care? I know plenty of dog owners who have fences and never exercise their dog, so it doesn't mean anything to the quality of care the dog will receive. My friend has struggled to find rescues that don't have this requirement, and it's sad that even when they say it's not an issue, they've passed him over as soon as somebody with a fence came along.


We have a fenced yard now, but, honestly, we don't use it much. Katie has ruined what little grass / weeds we had and, more often than not, the yard is a mud pit. She goes for walks, gets to run around at the park, goes to dog-friendly shops and events, and goes to the "nice" dog park on weekends.

I do understand the difficulty shelter and rescue workers / volunteers face. They are confronted with the most horrific side of humanity on a frequent basis. I know someone who volunteers for a county shelter and she has shared the most heartbreaking stories of animal abuse I've ever heard. It's understandable that they could, at some point, expect the worst from people.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cookieface said:


> - at least one stay-at-home owner


Man, I just don't understand this at all.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Man, I just don't understand this at all.


I know. I can understand that requirement for certain dogs, or certain situations, but as a blanket rule - huh? 

I was terrified that no breeder would ever sell us a dog because we both work. When I asked the first one I met with, she laughed and said "Everyone works, it won't be a problem."


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I've kinda wondered if it would have made a difference in my application for Jubel if my brother wasn't working nights at the time. We both worked full time but I'm gone 7am to about 5pm (horrible DC traffic can make that 6pm) and he was gone from about 9pm to 8-10am. This resulted in only a few hour gap of Jubel home alone. If my brother was working days I think the smallest gap of home alone time we'll end up with is 6-8 hours. I don't think that's any big deal but I wonder if it would have been when we applied.

My rescue doesn't require a fenced yard. I have one but 95% of it's use is for potty breaks. In the warmer seasons we have hang out in the yard a bit and sunbathe or I might play around with Jubel in the yard but really it's just a bathroom.


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## Twrx (Feb 25, 2013)

Well if he doesn't have a yard, some high energy breeds may cause problems being inside and bounce back to the rescue. That's hard on the dog as they will begin to develop seperation anxiety issues. 

Has he looked into lower energy breeds? Sure Border Collies are great dogs, but can become highly destructive if they don't get LOTS of exercise. If he wants a mid size dog, look for a whippet (greyhound cross with an extinct irish dog - like a mid size greyhound) rescue. If he is willing to get a bit larger dog (55-75) then he can look into adopting a retired racing greyhound. Despite what most people would think about the second fastest land animal... They are downright lazy. They are sprinters, and usually sleep between 16-20 hours per day. There is also no short supply of greyhounds looking for homes as they are retired at 5 (unless they aren't very fast, don't like to race, or get hurt). 

A lot of rescues foster the dogs and match the personality of the dog with the lifestyle of the owner so everyone is happy. The national greyhound association should have a list of rescues near him. The only thing he has to be careful about is the dog getting out off leash (you won't catch a dog that can hit 40+mph in 3 seconds) and around small animals. Most are great with people as they have been extensively handled and socialized since birth.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Twrx said:


> Well if he doesn't have a yard, some high energy breeds may cause problems being inside and bounce back to the rescue. That's hard on the dog as they will begin to develop seperation anxiety issues.


The point is you don't NEED a fenced yard to exercise a high energy breed and certainly shouldn't think just because you have a fenced yard the dog will exercise themselves in the yard. Having a fenced yard can make it easier but most people I know even with fenced yards get the majority of their dogs exercise outside of the yard. Walks/jogs, play dates, dog parks, daycare, or fenced fields for fetch or some type of game. 

I have a fenced yard but it's small. Rarely is their any exercise going on in my yard. The main exception to that is when I fostered a 1 year old hound/shepherd mix who played non-stop with my guy... but they did that both inside the house and in the yard. The only bonus to the yard was a larger open space.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I had a fenced yard back on PEI, but we rarely used it. My dogs would run around in there for maybe five minutes and then they'd just chew on stuff. They prefer going for real walks. Here in Toronto, I live in an apartment, so they get most of their exercise on-leash. We walk for 1-2 hours every day, and they seem quite happy with that. Every so often I let them off-leash in a fenced baseball field to get some more energy out. Owning a dog of even a higher energy level without a fenced yard is definitely doable, and if I ran a rescue, I wouldn't require a fenced yard at all -- I'd just do what all of the breeders I've dealt with have done and ask on my application how the potential owner planned to exercise the dog.

(Some dogs may truly need a yard, but I'd judge that on a case-by-case basis instead of making a blanket rule.)


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

We really only have the SPCA where I am but they're pretty good for adopting I think, their a no-kill but they are still strict over who gets who and do a lot of training in house to make the dogs more adoptable. 
-you fill out a form that includes drivers license or some sort of id plus general info about you and your place to make sure the dog is a good fit (they do this with the other animals as well)
-they look up your place and/or call landlord if you are renting to make sure the dog is welcome and safe.
-they do a background check (takes ~3 days) to make sure you're not abusive and all that 
-fences may be the tipping point if there are more than 1 good candidate after the same dog but they are not a requirement. 
-you go in, pay however much the adoption fee is (depends on the dogs age mostly) and they release the dog to you at the shelter providing that you have appropriate transport for you and the dog. 

The whole process takes 3-4 days and during this time the dog is also registered to you in city records so that if something happens the dog can be traced to you.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Twrx said:


> Has he looked into lower energy breeds? Sure Border Collies are great dogs, but can become highly destructive if they don't get LOTS of exercise. If he wants a mid size dog, look for a whippet (greyhound cross with an extinct irish dog - like a mid size greyhound) rescue. If he is willing to get a bit larger dog (55-75) then he can look into adopting a retired racing greyhound. Despite what most people would think about the second fastest land animal... They are downright lazy. They are sprinters, and usually sleep between 16-20 hours per day. There is also no short supply of greyhounds looking for homes as they are retired at 5 (unless they aren't very fast, don't like to race, or get hurt).


I still stand by not *needing* a fenced in yard if the owner is active and willing to exercise. I don't have a fenced in yard, though I do have 9 acres where my dog can run off leash. It's really nice to have that land, and to work with him off leash whenever I want, but he doesn't even get much exercise from that. He'll just stand in the middle of the field and watch me. Haha. He gets the majority of his exercise through walks (off leash if I can, but mostly on leash). Sure, a fence is nice, but the dog isn't going to exercise itself.

Also, as I said in my first post, he's looking at any medium sized breed. He initially wanted a pittie, but has also put in applications on lab mixes, this spaniel/BC mix, etc. He's extremely open to any breed that fits his general good with kids and dogs requirement. He's not interested in a greyhound though - he would like a more active dog than that. He and his wife are pretty active people and are definitely capable of giving a normal dog a lot of exercise without needing a fenced in yard.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Twrx said:


> Well if he doesn't have a yard, some high energy breeds may cause problems being inside and bounce back to the rescue. That's hard on the dog as they will begin to develop seperation anxiety issues.
> 
> Has he looked into lower energy breeds? Sure Border Collies are great dogs, but can become highly destructive if they don't get LOTS of exercise. If he wants a mid size dog, look for a whippet (greyhound cross with an extinct irish dog - like a mid size greyhound) rescue. If he is willing to get a bit larger dog (55-75) then he can look into adopting a retired racing greyhound. Despite what most people would think about the second fastest land animal... They are downright lazy. They are sprinters, and usually sleep between 16-20 hours per day. There is also no short supply of greyhounds looking for homes as they are retired at 5 (unless they aren't very fast, don't like to race, or get hurt).
> 
> A lot of rescues foster the dogs and match the personality of the dog with the lifestyle of the owner so everyone is happy. The national greyhound association should have a list of rescues near him. The only thing he has to be careful about is the dog getting out off leash (you won't catch a dog that can hit 40+mph in 3 seconds) and around small animals. Most are great with people as they have been extensively handled and socialized since birth.


I have a high-energy dog (Toller/BC/Golden mix) and we live in an 800-square foot condo in the middle of the city with no outdoor space whatsoever, fenced or otherwise. Moreover, I know several people with Border Collies, ACDs, Aussies, etc. in the city. They all walk and find other ways to burn the energy off. I actually don't think the "yard=exercise" link makes any sense at all. Either you're an owner who will exercise your high-energey dog, or you're not. Maybe a yard makes it a little more convenient...MAYBE. If the yard is big enough and the dog can gets its exercise needs met there. It would be nice to have a yard, but I don't think it would ever be a replacement for getting out there and walking, running a field, playing with a dog buddy.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Agreed. I have a fenced yard and dogs who actually do play with each other in it. It's nice for potty breaks and it's nice for those days when for whatever reason I can't get out with them, but they get the majority of their exercise away from home.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

My yard is approx an acre. I used it every day to exercise my German Shepherd. Since we live in a rural setting, most of the time going for a walk really wasn't an option unless we drove into town. So after his zoomies were over, I would play fetch with him (plenty of space for long throws) until he tired, then we leashed up and did training. Worked great; the fence was invaluable for releasing excess energy before training in a safe environment.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

hamandeggs said:


> You know, like I said, I've done home visits for a big rescue organization in DC as a volunteer (usually the visits are done by a volunteer who lives nearby, not by the adoption coordinator or foster, just for convenience), and while we're not poking around in people's closets, it does involve looking around the house a little bit and going through the questionnaire/checklist with the adopters takes about 30 minutes. They also require that the whole family be home (maybe to make sure everyone is board?). I'm sure this does present a barrier to some people, but I never thought it was anything unusual or more invasive than the home visit other rescues do. Y'all are making me think otherwise. Not sure how to feel about that. Weird.


I don't think that sounds evasive. The home checks I've done the potential adopters always voluntarily showed us around without any request, we had a checklist to discuss, and chatted. I was just being facetious because so many people balk at the very idea of a home check without really knowing what it usually is. They act like we're going to come in in a hazmat suit and go through their trash.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I don't condone lying but I kind of understand. Two years ago give or take we tried to adopt a cat and it was terrible, we didn't even make it to gone visit, we were denied at first phone call because:

No fence....for a cat???
Our young dog wasn't neutered, he was around 6 months old at the time, fur personal reasons and at vets recommendation we wanted to wait till he was a year
We worked to long ours...so yes, i have also ran in to the no one is at home full time rule
We rented....my landlord refused to be involved, he didn't want his number out, he didn't want called, and he didn't want held responsible for anything which I understood.

So we never tried again and to be honest probably never will, even if I own my own home I'm pretty sure they will still find something that doesn't work fur then, especially now that I have children!

My point is though, i kinda understand why people may try to lie, they are good families that just want to adopt, though I realize not all are good people!


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

sclevenger said:


> I don't condone lying but I kind of understand. Two years ago give or take we tried to adopt a cat and it was terrible, we didn't even make it to gone visit, we were denied at first phone call because:
> 
> No fence....for a cat???
> Our young dog wasn't neutered, he was around 6 months old at the time, fur personal reasons and at vets recommendation we wanted to wait till he was a year
> ...


The first three are crazy, we would not have denied you for any of those reasons. I fully agree that blanket restrictions are a very bad idea, particularly fence requirements, the whole "no kids" thing some rescues do, and requirements about how much you work or don't work. I am also miffed by application fees and groups that ask that you feed a certain food.

If a landlord refused to let the rescue know you had permission to have a pet that might be a problem though. Not sure how I would handle that one. Even the local shelters here check on that.

Btw the home visit I did last night went great, took about 20 minutes. The house was tidy but not spotless. I met their dog, watched while the cat explored, they had a litterbox set up and a climbing thing for her, we chatted about our previous pets, signed the contract, and that was it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The objection to home inspections always crack me up. I mean, maybe there are some rescues that would like a tour and search of your home, but I've never been involved in a home visit that was any thing more than seeing you physically live at that address and if you claim to have a 6 foot fence you actually DO have a 6 foot fence. No interrogation, no forensic analysis of your home, nothing.


Yep. I used to have a lot of protests, but after working with a rescue and realizing all the way is that, yeah, there's a house there and the fence is there and you aren't a hoarder or living in unsafe conditions YOURSELF, I got a lot more relaxed. I was also able to put a lot of people at ease. They see it like a real INSPECTION. Maybe just saying that delivery to your home is mandatory or - SOME kind of education abou what it involves for an individual group on their adoption site would help.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

TorachiKatashi said:


> I'm curious about the fences, though. Everyone mentions checking the fence like it's a big thing. I've never had a fenced yard, and I never will. Fences make lazy trainers, in my opinion.


Not always. when someone says they have one, though, they should actually have one. I know the tendency is to assume most rescues want you to have one, and that a lot do - and I think it's unnecessary and extreme - but there are individual dogs that need those fences, and seeing they're actually in place is pretty reasonable to me in those cases, I think.

That said, I'm with everyone else. We have a fenced yard. It's a bathroom. Even with 4 of them, they don't play out there or get any exercise at all. It's a-) small and b-) on a hill and c-) the dogs are not inclined to exercise THEMSELVES. They exercise when they're with us, being interacted with. Otherwise, they go out there, tool around, go potty, get bored and come in. Or sit and wait until they're allowed in, if for some reason they're 'put out' for an hour or so.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> That said, I'm with everyone else. We have a fenced yard. It's a bathroom.


I laughed at this... So true. Even for our energizer hound the backyard was just a pee spot unless we went out with her and played fetch. God help us if we tried to use that as her primary exercise! Pete uses our backyard today exclusively to pee and bark at raccoons/neighbour children. Oh and also as an attention-getting tool, considering his housetraining trouble the only surefire way to get my attention nowadays is for him to ask to go out.

EDIT: and SOMEONE peed on roomie's pillow/bed again today. Hint: that someone wasn't me..... Back to housetraining basics, combined with the makeup bag incident this morning Pete has officially lost house freedom privileges.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I think us people with fences all have our own programs when turning dogs out, we have never left dogs out more than 5 minutes (if that) We have a 2 yard setup small yard by home 25 ft by 48 ft. this is our dogs toilet area. When dog is turned loose in larger yard they are not alone. With us it's a "must do" program and we have never lost a dog ours or customers. 

The large area is where Pierce can run amok , he likes to play pool with me he's the cue ball, I am the rest.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I wouldn't object to a home visit if it's a single, planned visit to confirm our residence, verify fence (or lack of fence), and have a general discussion about the dog in question. I could understand a planned post-adoption visit just to check in and make sure things are going well. 

I would have problems with multiple visits and / or random pre- or post-adoption visits. 

My husband, on the other hand, refused to consider any rescue with home visit requirements or applications longer than 5 pages simply on principle.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

sheltiemom said:


> The first three are crazy, we would not have denied you for any of those reasons. I fully agree that blanket restrictions are a very bad idea, particularly fence requirements, the whole "no kids" thing some rescues do, and requirements about how much you work or don't work. I am also miffed by application fees and groups that ask that you feed a certain food.
> 
> If a landlord refused to let the rescue know you had permission to have a pet that might be a problem though. Not sure how I would handle that one. Even the local shelters here check on that.
> 
> Btw the home visit I did last night went great, took about 20 minutes. The house was tidy but not spotless. I met their dog, watched while the cat explored, they had a litterbox set up and a climbing thing for her, we chatted about our previous pets, signed the contract, and that was it.


Ya, I kind of did understand the landlord thing. My mom still rents under him and he is great, but he just doesn't like involved in what we do he doesn't want anything to come back on him. So I understood his side and the shelter. 

It was just all the other stuff. The kids one especially, I feel you should give us a chance bring the said dog or cat over and do the home visit with my child, see how the child reacts to the dog, see how the dog reacts to the child. I mean I know there are man variables that could change the outcome of that...dog in new environment makes him shy away from the child, child missed nap so she's cranky and is mean to the dog, but I mean, come on, at least give us a chance.

Especially for us, I've been raised with dogs, and in my daughters short life so has she, she does really well. Do we have to get on to her sometimes for being to rough, absolutely she is a child, but it doesn't ruin our dog because she has a tantrum and does something bad to the dog. We learn and grown and move on, all of us, dog included. 

I just wish more rescues made it easier to adopt, because most of my dogs growing up came from shelters and I would love to do that again, but sadly I probably never will until all my kids are grown and we own our own home.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I really wish some rescues wouldn't rule out kids. The local sheltie rescue where I am does that...no kids under 12, hence my two shelties from breeders. In my experience families with kids are stable and make good homes. We have lots of kids at our adoption events and they are generally more well behaved and gentle than adults, lol, and they hardly ever return animals.

We get the most returns from people who try to adopt two animals at the same time. We did a two for one over the summer with the cats and one almost always came back within two weeks. We aren't going that anymore currently.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I agree with the more stable comment. When you think about it a young person or a young couple adopts a dog, then realizes all the free time is taken up by a demanding dog, and I say demanding in just, he needs fed, watered, played with, exercised. You can't go out with your friends all night and not come home, the dog has to be let out and taken care of. When you are settled down with a family, you already understand that responsibility because of your children, you have learned it (hopefully) so bringing in a dog usually should mean the family sat down, discussed and realized they can do this. Its not going to be a spur of the moment decision because you have other important factors in your life you have to consider.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have kids and I don't agree with blanket no kid policies, but I do think that there are valid reasons not to adopt MOST dogs to families with very young children. Those reasons are usually 'liability'. Tiny kids have poor motor control, smell and sound funny, and it's real hard to test how well dogs do with a kid of that age without putting them in a home with a kid that age. Ideally for me is somewhere between 4 and 6 and up.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I disagree that homes with kids are necessarily more stable homes for a dog. Yes, they're pretty stable, and hopefully the parents have a handle on what it means to be responsible, but I also know families with kids who get a dog, and then realize the dog is just a lot of work added on to the work of kids, and them rehome the dog. A lot of people seem to think that puppies will get along with kids, and I don't think that's really the case. Much of the time having tiny kids around puppies can be a disaster if the parents don't have the correct expectations.

I don't agree with blanket "no kid" statements at all, but I do think there's a risk there that parents will just be overwhelmed, especially when that new puppy bites little Johnny (which puppies will do). I think limiting families with small kids to adopting adult dogs could be a good solution, or at least strongly encouraging them to go in that direction, and saving the puppies for families with older kids.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The other issue with young kids is, well, more young kids. I think this is a lot of the reason that a lot of rescues seem to prefer older couples/people, or people with older kids. Something that gives the indication that they're done having kids.

But once the kids are around school age, I think most arguments/problems with dogs+kids go out the window.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I provided a reference for a friend (now my boss) when he got a dog a couple years ago. I remember the lady hammering me with questions about whether he and his girlfriend would have kids, and if they did, would they just dump the dog once they had a kid. As far as I knew they weren't planning to ever have kids, but it was an awkwardly personal question to be asking their reference! Turns out the other reference, who had literally just had a baby, had babies on the brain and told the rescue lady that they wanted a puppy to practice for a baby :facepalm:

Luckily my boss was able to clear it up and they got the dog. Obviously that rescue lady had seen a lot of cases of young couples having kids and then dumping the dog.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I expect to go to a rescue for a dog someday. But if they're going to make me jump through hoops, forget it. I'll go to an ethical breeder.



> I disagree that homes with kids are necessarily more stable homes for a dog.


Same here. Not that my experiences generalize, necessarily, but I know more family + dog situations resulting in rehoming or trouble than I do single or couple + dog situations. I still don't believe that a rescue should have an across-the-board policy against adopting with kids in the house. How silly. Meet the family, discuss problems that may pop up with kids and dogs together, suggestion appropriate dogs for the household, make sure the dog will have plenty of exercise and attention in spite of the kids' activities, etc.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

We actually *don*'t get alot of applicants with really young kids, like babies and toddlers, but we get applicants where the youngest is 4 or 5 and it seems to work out well. Most people are really eager to do right by their new animal and are open to help and suggestions if it is readily available. This is where I think the application proccess and adoption fee helps weed out people who aren't as committed. I would think more problems would arise from the family that takes a free pup from a neighbor than someone who looked on petfinder, filled out a two page app, had a home visit, and paid $200. Plus hopefully the questions we ask get people thinking...that's the plan anyway...like "what issues would you consider rehoming for" and "how would you deal with xyz".

And btw, I had to fill out an app and talk extensively with both breeders I got the shelties from and others I inquired about dogs with before.


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## pawsplus (May 4, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I'm in the camp of not understanding the fence requirement. Sure, it's nice to have a fenced in yard for the owner's convenience, but if the owner is willing to take the dog out for potty breaks on a leash, why does the shelter care? I know plenty of dog owners who have fences and never exercise their dog, so it doesn't mean anything to the quality of care the dog will receive.


I think rescues should look at the individual situation--plenty of people w/out fenced yards will be great owners who will spend TONS of time w/ the dog--plenty of people w/ fenced yards will use them as an excuse for putting the dog outside and ignoring him.

That said, it's hard to imagine how most people with full-time jobs manage to care for dogs w/out fenced yards. When I lived in town and was married, and my ex had a job w/ a flexible schedule (university prof), our dogs were out in the yard only to do their business. They were crated inside when we were away b/c it was never more than 4 hours at a time. When I got divorced, I did the same, but had to take a long lunch every day (and lose $ for it) to go home and let the dogs out at lunchtime.

When I moved to the boondocks, where I was 45 min. from my job, that ended. The dogs started spending all their days in their large fenced yard. They have a heated toolshed w/ comfy beds and are quite happy, and I don't have to worry about their poor bladders! 

I can't imagine leaving a dog inside for 9 hours or more a day while I was away at work--asking a dog to hold it that long is really unfair in my book--and it's unlikely to last long b/c eventually the dog will give up, pee, and the relief from that will be so great that he'll do it again next time. Dogs who DO last all day, day after day after day-well, that just seems really sad.

So . . . Since most people work and most people are unable/unwilling to come home at lunch or pay a petsitter to do it, IMO it's safer for rescues to require a fenced yard.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

pawsplus said:


> I think rescues should look at the individual situation--plenty of people w/out fenced yards will be great owners who will spend TONS of time w/ the dog--plenty of people w/ fenced yards will use them as an excuse for putting the dog outside and ignoring him.
> 
> That said, it's hard to imagine how most people with full-time jobs manage to care for dogs w/out fenced yards. When I lived in town and was married, and my ex had a job w/ a flexible schedule (university prof), our dogs were out in the yard only to do their business. They were crated inside when we were away b/c it was never more than 4 hours at a time. When I got divorced, I did the same, but had to take a long lunch every day (and lose $ for it) to go home and let the dogs out at lunchtime.
> 
> ...


I guarantee you more rescues would deny you for leaving your dogs outside all day than they would see your point. 

Also, what's safer could be argued for any thing. I'm more interested in seeing dogs placed than dead.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

pawsplus said:


> I think rescues should look at the individual situation--plenty of people w/out fenced yards will be great owners who will spend TONS of time w/ the dog--plenty of people w/ fenced yards will use them as an excuse for putting the dog outside and ignoring him.
> 
> That said, it's hard to imagine how most people with full-time jobs manage to care for dogs w/out fenced yards. When I lived in town and was married, and my ex had a job w/ a flexible schedule (university prof), our dogs were out in the yard only to do their business. They were crated inside when we were away b/c it was never more than 4 hours at a time. When I got divorced, I did the same, but had to take a long lunch every day (and lose $ for it) to go home and let the dogs out at lunchtime.
> 
> ...


I would love to have a fenced in yard, but only so we could let them out to potty without hovering over the door and to be able to go out in the yard to run and play without a long line or worrying the dog might see something and take off.

But even If I had a fence I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving him alone all day while were gone in the yard with no supervision. Of course this mostly comes from bad experience. A friend of mine had to have her dog put to sleep because a boy who we all knew constantly aggravated the dog through the fence, it was constant, she would catch this boy throwing rocks, calling the dog over and then jabbing it with a stick. Well this went on, on thing lead to another and the dog bit the little boy, had to have stitches, he shoved his arm to jab the dog with stick and the dog grabbed his arm, the boys mother was a nasty woman and she raised hell until the dog was put to sleep due to he was still dangerous even when contained....

I also knew a beagle that could climb a fence to get out when his owners left him unattended. I would rather leave him inside crated than risk him getting lose or hurt when Im not home.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

pawsplus said:


> I think rescues should look at the individual situation--plenty of people w/out fenced yards will be great owners who will spend TONS of time w/ the dog--plenty of people w/ fenced yards will use them as an excuse for putting the dog outside and ignoring him.
> 
> That said, it's hard to imagine how most people with full-time jobs manage to care for dogs w/out fenced yards. When I lived in town and was married, and my ex had a job w/ a flexible schedule (university prof), our dogs were out in the yard only to do their business. They were crated inside when we were away b/c it was never more than 4 hours at a time. When I got divorced, I did the same, but had to take a long lunch every day (and lose $ for it) to go home and let the dogs out at lunchtime.
> 
> ...



No way, no how, for anyhow reason, would I EVER leave a dog outside unsupervised, unless it was working. I might be convinced for a single individual dog. More than one dog, out all day with no one home?

Nope! That's playing with fire.

I loved my fenced yard. It's great for rainy days, sometimes play and as a bathroom. Otherwise, I still supervise, train, and exercise my dogs. It's a Fence, not daycare or a dog walker.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

pawsplus said:


> I can't imagine leaving a dog inside for 9 hours or more a day while I was away at work--asking a dog to hold it that long is really unfair in my book--and it's unlikely to last long b/c eventually the dog will give up, pee, and the relief from that will be so great that he'll do it again next time. Dogs who DO last all day, day after day after day-well, that just seems really sad.
> 
> So . . . Since most people work and most people are unable/unwilling to come home at lunch or pay a petsitter to do it, IMO it's safer for rescues to require a fenced yard.


I'd say that really depends on the dog. My dog would be absolutely fine with a 9 hour day. Not an issue at the moment with my brother home all day but holding it for 9 hours for a 48# dog isn't that big a deal. But if it was just me without my brother to help out with the dog my work day is about 7am to 5pm (return time is +/- 30 minutes either way due to traffic) and I'd get a neighbor to let him out to potty mid day at least. No way in hell would he spend the day in my fenced yard.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I've seen or read that rescues have blanket "no children" rules because they've had (legal?) difficulty when adopting to families with well-behaved, gentle children, while rejecting applications from families with less well-mannered kids. I can understand how it would be difficult to explain the reasoning to families with unruly children if they press for specific reasons.

All the rescues I looked at indicated they absolutely would not adopt to anyone leaving their dogs outside all day. My dog is never outside unsupervised - far too many things can happen.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I have to admit, I find leaving the dogs outside unsupervised together all day much more dangerous than leaving them inside (even crated) for a 9 hour day. The more I think about it the more I feel like a fence is of no benefit for pretty much _any_ dog. Maybe some of the people in rescue here can give examples of a dog who really _needs_ a fence. Like I said, with the escape artists it doesn't seem to make much sense, but thats the only type I can think of where people cite a fence as absolutely necessary (although many rescues still require it as a blanket)....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I can understand how it would be difficult to explain the reasoning to families with unruly children if they press for specific reasons.


I wonder, but not surprised that parents with unruly children do not know or maybe don't care that the children are unruly. I don't understand the difficulty in telling them especially if it's to protect their kids.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> I have to admit, I find leaving the dogs outside unsupervised together all day much more dangerous than leaving them inside (even crated) for a 9 hour day. The more I think about it the more I feel like a fence is of no benefit for pretty much _any_ dog. Maybe some of the people in rescue here can give examples of a dog who really _needs_ a fence. Like I said, with the escape artists it doesn't seem to make much sense, but thats the only type I can think of where people cite a fence as absolutely necessary (although many rescues still require it as a blanket)....


Kind of the opposite of escape artists. There are dogs, though relatively rare, who REALLY do not do well on leash. That's something that can be overcome, but the interm solution is to let them out in a fenced yard to go to the bathroom. Not just reactivity, but fear of the leash/dangerously (to themselves) flipping out on one. Mill rescues are often like this. The ideal home for that situation? Has a fence. There are also some dogs who just really, really, like tearing around off leash, playing fetch, whatever - or who just won't really run, even on a long line- and in some areas the best, safest, way to get that for the dog is a fenced in back yard. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't do crap with my back yard, but that's not to say there's never any benefit of the dog to them. There's minimal to no benefit to MOST dogs, beyond being a kind of nice perk, but once in a while you do find a dog who needs access, at least short term, to that fenced in yard.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Kind of the opposite of escape artists. There are dogs, though rare, who REALLY do not do well on leash. That's something that can be overcome, but the interm solution is to let them out in a fenced yard to go to the bathroom. Not just reactivity, but fear of the leash/dangerously flipping out on one. The ideal home for that situation? Has a fence.


Ahh! That makes a lot of sense. Maybe for mill dogs or abuse cases where being tethered to a person is just overwhelmingly stressful.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> Ahh! That makes a lot of sense. Maybe for mill dogs or abuse cases where being tethered to a person is just overwhelmingly stressful.


Yep. I was just editing to specify mill cases specifically. You still have problems where you have to coax the dog back inside, yeah, and with small dogs you can just go puppy pads, but that's not always feasible and a fenced in yard (preferably a smallish one, that's got no inaccessible places) is a good thing to have. It can also build a lot of trust and confidence in the dog, while you work with them. Getting the leash on can happen before they have to handle The Public or More Cars or whatever.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I think it's a pretty big leap to go from "rescues shouldn't have a blanket fence requirement" to "fences have no benefit for pretty much any dog." There are lots of ways that fenced yards benefit dogs... although we do a lot away from home, my dogs very much benefit from enjoying playing with one another in my fenced backyard. My neighbor's dog likes to sit outside and sun himself in nice weather in his fenced backyard. If I'm grilling or doing yard work or just hanging out, my dogs enjoy being outside in the fenced yard with me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I think it's a pretty big leap to go from "rescues shouldn't have a blanket fence requirement" to "fences have no benefit for pretty much any dog." There are lots of ways that fenced yards benefit dogs... although we do a lot away from home, my dogs very much benefit from enjoying playing with one another in my fenced backyard. My neighbor's dog likes to sit outside and sun himself in nice weather in his fenced backyard. If I'm grilling or doing yard work or just hanging out, my dogs enjoy being outside in the fenced yard with me.


Yeah. I mean I don't see my fenced yard as providing EXERCISE for my dog, but they certainly provide air and a bit of extra space and the freedom to be more rough and tumble than they could be in the house. And *I* certainly benefit from the thing. I'm lazy. It is much, much easier for me LET the potty trained dogs out than it is to put them on a leash and TAKE THEM out. (Frankly, sans fenced yard, I would not have four dogs. No way. No how, nuh uh. I'd have a dog. Because I LOVE going out with all of them, but 4 times a day? Um. Not so much.)


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I think it's a pretty big leap to go from "rescues shouldn't have a blanket fence requirement" to "fences have no benefit for pretty much any dog." There are lots of ways that fenced yards benefit dogs... although we do a lot away from home, my dogs very much benefit from enjoying playing with one another in my fenced backyard. My neighbor's dog likes to sit outside and sun himself in nice weather in his fenced backyard. If I'm grilling or doing yard work or just hanging out, my dogs enjoy being outside in the fenced yard with me.


Yeah, I didn't mean they're of no benefit to any dog, I phrased that pretty badly. Just that I couldn't think of a specific type of dog where they would be a requirement, where you couldn't get the same benefit in another way.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. I mean I don't see my fenced yard as providing EXERCISE for my dog, but they certainly provide air and a bit of extra space and the freedom to be more rough and tumble than they could be in the house. And *I* certainly benefit from the thing. I'm lazy. It is much, much easier for me LET the potty trained dogs out than it is to put them on a leash and TAKE THEM out. (Frankly, sans fenced yard, I would not have four dogs. No way. No how, nuh uh. I'd have a dog. Because I LOVE going out with all of them, but 4 times a day? Um. Not so much.)


I'm lucky in that my dogs actually do play enough chase, keep-away, wrestling, etc to get actual exercise in the yard. It's not their primary exercise, but I actually really like them to have that kind of free play on their "off" days from mushing so all of their exercise isn't too repetitive. 

But yea... I also really like the convenience of having a backyard bathroom for them.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I think home checks are important and I wish all rescues, shelters and breeders would do them. Our last dog came from a rescue, who was supposed to do one but we were approved with nothing checked. Good thing that we're good owners,IMO. As far as a fenced in yard, I think it should be a case by case basis, depending on the dog. Some may need one, others may not.


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## swack (Nov 10, 2012)

What a lot of these "rescues" fail to realize is that they are directly causing a lot of the issues that they are striving to solve.

They don't want backyard breeders, puppy mills and such, but by having such stringent and often unyielding restrictions, they create a demand for such breeders. 

Most people are not willing to go through the ridiculous song and dance required by certain rescues (especially breed specific) and they will turn to a BYB or petstore.


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## Indurate (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your friend's bad experiences. The adoption people should be more up front with him. Not having a fenced yard is a deal-breaker for some rescues, but if so they should just let him know. Taking his joy away at the last second several times is just awful.


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## Indurate (Feb 27, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I think it's a pretty big leap to go from "rescues shouldn't have a blanket fence requirement" to "fences have no benefit for pretty much any dog." There are lots of ways that fenced yards benefit dogs... although we do a lot away from home, my dogs very much benefit from enjoying playing with one another in my fenced backyard. My neighbor's dog likes to sit outside and sun himself in nice weather in his fenced backyard. If I'm grilling or doing yard work or just hanging out, my dogs enjoy being outside in the fenced yard with me.


I agree, and some breeds really can't be safely owned without a good fence around your property. When I looked at rescues for some of the livestock guardian dogs, a 6-foot wall was a common requirement. If your dog is small enough that teaching him to go on a pad rather than outside, then having a fence probably isn't an issue one way or the other. If you have a dog that must go out to do their business, having no fence is too much of a liability. I mainly view my block wall as a means to protect my dogs from idiot passerbys when I'm not home.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Indurate said:


> I agree, and some breeds really can't be safely owned without a good fence around your property. When I looked at rescues for some of the livestock guardian dogs, a 6-foot wall was a common requirement. If your dog is small enough that teaching him to go on a pad rather than outside, then having a fence probably isn't an issue one way or the other. If you have a dog that must go out to do their business, having no fence is too much of a liability. I mainly view my block wall as a means to protect my dogs from idiot passerbys when I'm not home.


...Have you considered that many people walk their dogs? On leashes? 

I did so with an LGD for MANY years, without a fenced yard. A long line (100 foot) for exercise and a 6ft nylon leash for going to the bathroom and we were gold. Of course, he was a house dog and had the energy of a rock by the time he turned 2, so you know.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I ride Shambles through the neighborhood like a mighty steed. Nekomi didn't screen for that.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

One of my dogs is 9lbs and I don't have a fence. But I don't want her peeing on a pad in my house. What do I do!?

...Oh, right, leashes exist. Phew, I was worried for a moment there.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Yeah, unfortunately, as much as I like rescuing and adopting, I will never go through an rescue or shelter to get a pet. 

Years and years ago, a now ex-boyfriend of mine and I went to our local Humane Society to adopt a kitten. We found this one seriously gorgeous kitten then we both loved, filled out the application and were approved. They told us however, it would be a few weeks before he'd be ready to leave to shelter due to age and vaccinations. They set a date for us to come pick him up, which I believe was about three weeks, and we left, SUPER super excited. 

When we returned on the date given to us, we were told the kitten we had a hold on and that wasn't able to leave the shelter till that day, had been adopted the week prior. No reason or explanation for it.

So yeah. No more. Craigslist, newspaper, friends, relatives. But no more rescue or shelters. Which is a shame, because we'd have a great life to offer any dog or cat.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> One of my dogs is 9lbs and I don't have a fence. But I don't want her peeing on a pad in my house. What do I do!?
> 
> ...Oh, right, leashes exist. Phew, I was worried for a moment there.


Hahahaha. Made me giggle.

I haven't had a fence most of the time I've had Mumble. He goes outside. On a leash.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Avery said:


> Hahahaha. Made me giggle.
> 
> I haven't had a fence most of the time I've had Mumble. He goes outside. On a leash.


Haha, I too giggle...my dogs have always went outside on the leash....rain, snow, or shine....


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RCloud said:


> Yeah, unfortunately, as much as I like rescuing and adopting, I will never go through an rescue or shelter to get a pet.
> 
> Years and years ago, a now ex-boyfriend of mine and I went to our local Humane Society to adopt a kitten. We found this one seriously gorgeous kitten then we both loved, filled out the application and were approved. They told us however, it would be a few weeks before he'd be ready to leave to shelter due to age and vaccinations. They set a date for us to come pick him up, which I believe was about three weeks, and we left, SUPER super excited.
> 
> ...


One bad experience spoiled all rescues and shelters forever? Shoot, it must be hard to try any thing new.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

same here, mine are out when i or someone is home not if they are not, because the fence is there as a barrier but it isnt 'full proof' i just consider myself lucky i dont have roamers LOL


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## cremebrulee (Feb 28, 2013)

I have had dogs all my life, and ask that your friends be patient. When it is meant to be it will be. Last two dogs were rescues....always had big dogs before, dobermans, redbone coonhound, labradors...however they all shed terrible...so my first rescue I found was a Bichon, really great little dogs, and smart to. Very smart and they don't shed!!!! Those are the perks, however, you do have to groom them every 6 - 8 weeks. Longer in the winter, shorter in the summer. My new fur person is a Shih Tzu mix with maltese...she is a love...she to, doesn't shed much, which is great...but, there are draw backs to rescues...there may be problems....with fear biting, going to the vet, groomer...etc. There are a lot of rescues that require fences....my gosh, we have a leash law in the community where I live, and a woman still lets her dog run loose, and we are right next to a high way....that really erks me, big time...but it would be convenient and wise for your friend and wife to put up an underground fence, they work really really well. But tell them NOT to go to a puppy mill, and be selective when choosing a dog. Don't take one that has not been in foster care for a couple of weeks, so that that person will be able to tell you more about the dog. Good luck and just my advise/opinion


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## Indurate (Feb 27, 2013)

CptJack said:


> ...Have you considered that many people walk their dogs? On leashes?
> 
> I did so with an LGD for MANY years, without a fenced yard. A long line (100 foot) for exercise and a 6ft nylon leash for going to the bathroom and we were gold. Of course, he was a house dog and had the energy of a rock by the time he turned 2, so you know.


People walking dogs? On Leashes? That's just crazy. 

Actually, I do occasionally walk my dogs on leashes (2-3 times per day... help!), but I never do this in my enclosed back yard. They go out for potty breaks and sometimes to wrestle a bit, but without a wall/fence I'd have to put a stop to that. I live in the city and can't risk them getting hit by a car. So I'd say the need for an enclosed yard will vary greatly depending on where you live and the type of breed you want. I know breeds aren't definitive, but Border Collies tend to need a lot of running, and hounds tend to bark. You can generally get a good feel for what's going to work in your situation.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Indurate said:


> People walking dogs? On Leashes? That's just crazy.
> 
> Actually, I do occasionally walk my dogs on leashes (2-3 times per day... help!), but I never do this in my enclosed back yard. They go out for potty breaks and sometimes to wrestle a bit, but without a wall/fence I'd have to put a stop to that. I live in the city and can't risk them getting hit by a car. So I'd say the need for an enclosed yard will vary greatly depending on where you live and the type of breed you want. I know breeds aren't definitive, but Border Collies tend to need a lot of running, and hounds tend to bark. You can generally get a good feel for what's going to work in your situation.


Oh, I love (LOVE) my fenced yard and the fact that I can open the door for potty breaks, rather than having to wrangle shoes and a coat and leashes and all. I love that 3 seasons a year I can just leave the back door standing open and they can go out to play at will, without worry. I also know that I could not have as many dogs as I do now, if I had to leash walk them all for every potty trip. It'd make me insane. 

But I don't think there's any single breed that someone dedicated would need to have a fence for. Breed, mind you, not individual. Some individuals I know need fences.


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## psdaengr (Feb 28, 2013)

I've been experiencing resistance because of lack of a fenced yard, and some other issues.

The yard issue is questionable when the shelter insists that the dog should be an inside dog, or when the breed desired is known to be amenable to living in a small home or apartment. It's understandable for a high energy dog that needs lots of activity.

Lacking a fenced yard, I've been searching for an adult rescued minis, and have done a lot of research finding appropriate places for assuring that it can get as much exercise as it can tolerate thorough walks, daycare, play, and intensive long-term training, so I don't think that a lack iof fenced yard should be an issue.

One issue I am having is lack of a current vet reference for my cats. They are inside 100% of the time, except for when I take them for rabies vaccinations given by the county or at a pet store. These cats are 13 and 18 years old and in excellent health. Both had adverse reactions to 4-in-1 shots and spot treatments, so we use a topical natural spray to repel any stray insects that might work their way into our home. Though I've indicated we'll be using a new area vet who, unlike our last one, works with dogs and cats, that we haven't taken our cats there yet seems to be a show-stopper. 

It looks like I'll have to take the cats to a vet just to document that they are healthy and well-cared for.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> But I don't think there's any single breed that someone dedicated would need to have a fence for. Breed, mind you, not individual. Some individuals I know need fences.


Since I joined DF in 2008 I have preached it's the dog not the breed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Since I joined DF in 2008 I have preached it's the dog not the breed.


I haven't even been here a year, yet, but I keep saying 'don't let your dog's breed tell you what it's capable of'. Same kind of thing, I think. Breed traits are breed traits for a reason, but they don't trump the individual dog you already have.

And a whooooole lot of people would be happier if they worked with the dog they actually have, instead of the dog that only exists in their head, as a set of expectations.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

Indurate said:


> People walking dogs? On Leashes? That's just crazy.
> 
> Actually, I do occasionally walk my dogs on leashes (2-3 times per day... help!), but I never do this in my enclosed back yard. They go out for potty breaks and sometimes to wrestle a bit, but without a wall/fence I'd have to put a stop to that. I live in the city and can't risk them getting hit by a car. So I'd say the need for an enclosed yard will vary greatly depending on where you live and the type of breed you want. I know breeds aren't definitive, but Border Collies tend to need a lot of running, and hounds tend to bark. You can generally get a good feel for what's going to work in your situation.


I haven't found my Border Collie mix to need a fence. She does in fact need a LOT of running, a whole lot. But we generally don't do it in the yard. I'll take her canicrossing and to big empty fields with a 50 foot leash. Sometimes we'll hit up the dog park or to friends with fences. It's nice to have but not needed.

I'm also jealous of you all that can just open your doors and let them out to potty! I do have a fenced in area where I could do this, but they tend to mosey when they are off leash and I usually want them in and out for bathroom breaks.


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## Indurate (Feb 27, 2013)

wvasko said:


> Since I joined DF in 2008 I have preached it's the dog not the breed.


I agree, but not completely. Breeds have a general set of traits you can reasonably expect. I've seen lazy Border Collies, but the vast majority of them are full of energy and love to work. People like to label breeds with all manner of things, and I think that's very wrong. Despite what the media says, I've never met a Pit Bull I didn't like. But I also think its a mistake to ignore the breed. I could train any dog to do pretty much anything, but certain breeds have a tendency to be better at some things and more challenging at others. Not every individual dog, but it's a good baseline. I'm pretty damned sure that when I throw a ball, a Border Collie will chase it. 

This is the problem rescues have to deal with when placing dogs. Although a particular dog might differ, guidelines must be set or they'll be opening themselves up for a law suit. If they approve homes for a dog breed that generally requires a fence on a case by case basis, they'll spend an enormous amount of time fighting over challenges to people they reject. And the rescue can't assume and plan for every potential adopter having the dedication many of the members here obviously have.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Indurate said:


> This is the problem rescues have to deal with when placing dogs. Although a particular dog might differ, guidelines must be set or they'll be opening themselves up for a law suit.


I spent a decade doing rescue - heavily.

I can definitively say that this is not at all the case, and it is very easy to avoid law suit with a 'case by case basis, denial for any reason and we don't have to tell you why' wording and cutting off contact. They are private charities and can have whatever guidelines they like. They do not have to be, and are not legally required, to be fair. Animal Control has to be fair. A 5013c does not.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

psdaengr said:


> The issue I'm having is lack of a current vet reference for my cats. They are inside 100% of the time, except for when I take them for rabies vaccinations given by the county or at a pet store. These cats are 13 and 18 years old and in excellent health. (The older one acts like a kitten when chasing a laser pointer.) Both had adverse reactions to 4-in-1 shots and spot treatments, so we use a topical natural spray to repel any stray insects that might work their way into our home. Though I've indicated we'll be using a new area vet who, unlike our last one, works with dogs and cats, that we haven't taken our cats there yet seems to be a show-stopper.



Have you told them your reasoning? I was afraid I would have the same problem when I applied to be a foster home because I don't vaccinate my adult indoor only cats, though I do keep them on preventatives. I told them this upfront and it wasn't an issue. Oddly enough I once put the wrong # down for a vet reference, it was a typo, and I was denied without an opportunity to give them the right #. I emailed the correct # but they never responded to me again.


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## pawsplus (May 4, 2012)

CptJack said:


> No way, no how, for anyhow reason, would I EVER leave a dog outside unsupervised, unless it was working. I might be convinced for a single individual dog. More than one dog, out all day with no one home?
> 
> Nope! That's playing with fire.


I have to say that I'm kind of astonished at how many people seem to feel this way. Do you all work at home? Have dog nannies? B/c most people who work are unable to get home during the day, and even if your commute is fairly short, you're going to be gone for 9+ hours. I'm gone for 11 hours. It would be completely unfair-bordering on cruel-to leave a dog inside, unable to urinate, for that long day after day after day.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

pawsplus said:


> I have to say that I'm kind of astonished at how many people seem to feel this way. Do you all work at home? Have dog nannies? B/c most people who work are unable to get home during the day, and even if your commute is fairly short, you're going to be gone for 9+ hours. I'm gone for 11 hours. It would be completely unfair-bordering on cruel-to leave a dog inside, unable to urinate, for that long day after day after day.


It's an entirely different perspective. I do work from home. Some people use dog walkers or dog day cares. Some come home for lunch. Most people, myself included, would prefer NOT to leave a dog without a midday break, but if my options are 'crated for 10 hours, or outside without supervision for 10 hours', crate EVERY time. (Though again, I'd encourage hiring a dog walker or something if it was a common occurrence for work - for us, it's very occasional that the dogs get left for that long and when it does happen the 2 young dogs come along, and the 2 6 year olds - 1 gets crated in a dane sized crate, the other gets roam of the house).

Nothing is happening to them in their crate. No one else has access to them. There is no way for them to dig out. They are no more bored than they would be in an empty yard, alone. Another dog is not a playmate, it is a potential for dogs who normally get along to redirect at stimulus and wind up hurt or dead. And not being able to pee for 9 hours? My adult dogs only go out at 7 a.m, 6 p.m, and 11 p.m ANYWAY (and even the 9 month old only has one extra potty trip, somewhere around noon most days), and that's with me sitting here, prepared to let them out whenever they want. So I don't consider it cruel. I consider it safe from accidents, injuries, poisoning, theft, and escape. 

Especially given that all they do is sleep ANYWAY.

And I am WAY more lax in what other people do re: dogs and outside than most. If it's a secure yard and you're absolutely sure of your dogs and prepared to deal with the consequences, it's your risk to take. I take different risks with mine, including letting them off leash in unfenced areas. But I wouldn't adopt to a home with that set up (barring a really unusual dog, or a working home situation), and I wouldn't ever do it myself. That's okay. Some rescues wouldn't adopt to me for the off leash thing, or for only vaccinating every 3 years, or - whatever other reason is mentioned here.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Eh, my dogs are left indoors in a spacious x-pen while I'm at work. They have toys, chews, beds, and yes, a potty pad. Most the time I can let them out at lunch, other times I can't. There is never any difference between them when I can and can't. The potty pad is rarely used. They're exercised before and after work, classes a few times a week, and lots of hikes. Seem happy enough to me. 

My dog barks the entire time she's left outside alone so neighbors probably wouldn't like that very much if I stuck her outside the entire time.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

pawsplus said:


> I have to say that I'm kind of astonished at how many people seem to feel this way. Do you all work at home? Have dog nannies? B/c most people who work are unable to get home during the day, and even if your commute is fairly short, you're going to be gone for 9+ hours. I'm gone for 11 hours. It would be completely unfair-bordering on cruel-to leave a dog inside, unable to urinate, for that long day after day after day.


We work long hours and have no yard. We hire a dog walker (and would even if we did have a yard). It's not a big deal. It's just something we budget for.


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## psdaengr (Feb 28, 2013)

Indurate said:


> ., . . And the rescue can't assume and plan for every potential adopter having the dedication many of the members here obviously have.


I've seen no evidence that the rescue groups, shelters, etc actually make an effort to learn exactly how dedicated the potential adopters are. They generally use questionaires with check boxes - fenced yard? y/n years at present address? __:any pets? y/n vaccinated? y/n vets name:____ How would you handle excessive barking? House training? (space for 15 characters each) 

Heck, I could probably do better on a comprehensive exam on dog care and training of a dog than most of the staff and volunteer of the organizations I've contacted - and I haven't owned a dog in more than 50 years!! Because I haven't, and I want to find a dog that I can keep happy and healthy for the rest of its life, I've done the research, learned what a dog needs, and learned how to provide it. If it turns out that I can't handle one aspect well, I know who to turn to help and teach me, for assistance, and when to ask for help.

But none of the groups I've contacted given me an opportunity to demonstrate my dedication or ability. Heck, if they did, I be willing to be a volunteer for them, because I have business and organizational abilities that they badly need.

The whole adoption process is poorly conceived. It isn't designed to know the adopters, it's poor at learning and characterizing the adoptable, and is so inconsistent that it makes registering for a firearm look good in comparison. Have you ever read a Petfinder description of a dog that says "ugly" , "unlovable", "dangerous around children", "will chew through a chain link fence?" or "loves to escape from fenced yards"? Half the descriptions have really bad pictures, and don't indicate weight, age, or a reasonably-educated opinion of the dog's actual temperament.

Though the groups all say they're looking for suitable forever homes, and have more animals than they can afford to shelter, the adoption process seems to be rigged against anyone who is knowledgeable enough about dogs to have already identified the right combination of characteristics for compatibility. Look for a minis or another small breed that isn't hyper-energy. When one isn't available, every group will tell you to "look" at their other dogs (listings)- even though none of them is listed close to the appropriate size or activity class.

Many foster groups require proforma applications, before you can even meet a particular dog. But they don't work with each other to have a universal application form. The forms they've created don't allow explanations. Every group has a different process for listing the characteristics of their animals. Each group has a different process for contacting them and submitting an application. When you do follow their application process, generally they'll never contact you unless they think your application is a perfect fit with whatever they imagine is needed.

You would think that for organisations that operate on shoestring budgets with volunteer help, they'd realize that random use of Petfinder listing, their organizations independent websites, independent application processes, and uncoordinated and competitive "meet me" events are inefficient, ineffective and economically irrational.

If the all the humane, rescue and shelter groups were to share a database of would-be adopters, with input from group members who have actually met these people and know them as well as they now know their dogs, the number of highly-suitable adopters would probably exceed the number of adoptable dogs.


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## Indurate (Feb 27, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I spent a decade doing rescue - heavily.
> 
> I can definitively say that this is not at all the case, and it is very easy to avoid law suit with a 'case by case basis, denial for any reason and we don't have to tell you why' wording and cutting off contact. They are private charities and can have whatever guidelines they like. They do not have to be, and are not legally required, to be fair. Animal Control has to be fair. A 5013c does not.


Then I was mistaken. I'll just sum up my thoughts that his friend shouldn't be getting the run-around, fences are good to have but not always a necessity, and breed characteristics are an indication of probability, not an absolute.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Indurate said:


> Then I was mistaken. I'll just sum up my thoughts that his friend shouldn't be getting the run-around, fences are good to have but not always a necessity, and breed characteristics are an indication of probability, not an absolute.


Absolutely agreed. And in addition, if these dogs are in foster care the rescue knows exactly which dogs need fences and which don't.


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## Indurate (Feb 27, 2013)

psdaengr said:


> Many foster groups require proforma applications, before you can even meet a particular dog. But they don't work with each other to have a universal application form. The forms they've created don't allow explanations. Every group has a different process for listing the characteristics of their animals. Each group has a different process for contacting them and submitting an application. When you do follow their application process, generally they'll never contact you unless they think your application is a perfect fit with whatever they imagine is needed.


I agree. The application should not be used as a tool to weed out prospective adopters. People should be met and evaluated by those working in adoption services, regardless of a questionnaire. Some people would be a great fit even if some of their answers weren't what the adoption service considered ideal.


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## pawsplus (May 4, 2012)

As I said, I used to be in the "never out in the yard when I'm not home" school. And if I lived in town, I still would be. I did that for 20 years of dog ownership. But it's just not possible where I live now. If nothing goes wrong in my day, I'm home 11 hours after I leave. But things DO sometimes go wrong (like the day it took me EIGHT HOURS to get home b/c of a snow storm). Not only do I think it would be responsible to leave the dogs indoors (esp. crated!) for 11 hours, but on the days when something goes wrong, I would be frantic.

There are no pet sitters or dog walkers in the boonies.  I would have to pay someone $50 a day or more (if they would even agree to come to my place, which I doubt) to take my dogs out at noon. Most of my disposable income is spent on my pets, but I doubt anyone would think this was a good use of funds LOL! I know a few of my neighbors, but most keep their dogs chained to dog houses--they are not the types I would ever ask to care for my critters!

Anyway, I used to feel the way a lot of you do--that to leave dogs outside was unsafe, etc. And yes, something could go wrong. But so far it has not (knock on wood--11 years) and I feel better knowing that my dogs are moving around, exercising (and yes, they do--I have a hunting camera I have set up to find out what they're up to when I'm gone!), able to eliminate when they need to, etc. In warm weather they sunbathe. In cold weather they go into their heated shed where they have a carpet and comfy beds. 

So it depends on your circumstances.  But I have to say that I have never routinely crated a dog for 8-9 hours and I never will. I feel that is cruel and inhumane on a regular basis and am surprised that anyone here thinks differently. Try getting through 9-10 hours (other than at night) without urinating. It's not pretty.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

How is 9-10 hours in the daytime different from at night? The dogs are asleep most of that time either way.

I mean, I wouldn't want to leave my dogs that long, either (I work at home right now; if I didn't, I'd hopefully be able to come home mid-day to take them out), but many dogs do it with absolutely no issue... crated OR loose in the house.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

pawsplus said:


> I have to say that I'm kind of astonished at how many people seem to feel this way. Do you all work at home? Have dog nannies? B/c most people who work are unable to get home during the day, and even if your commute is fairly short, you're going to be gone for 9+ hours. I'm gone for 11 hours. It would be completely unfair-bordering on cruel-to leave a dog inside, unable to urinate, for that long day after day after day.


Our dog is confined to the bedroom while my husband and I are at work. She seems fine, but is alone for only 4-6 hours (usually less) because of our schedules. If we didn't have staggered schedules, we'd have someone take her out mid-day; I'd never leave her alone in the yard for even 4 hours.


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## psdaengr (Feb 28, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> How is 9-10 hours in the daytime different from at night? The dogs are asleep most of that time either way.
> 
> I mean, I wouldn't want to leave my dogs that long, either (I work at home right now; if I didn't, I'd hopefully be able to come home mid-day to take them out), but many dogs do it with absolutely no issue... crated OR loose in the house.
> . . .


Issues for the owners, or issues for the dogs?

The difference between a dog being crated for 9 hours in the day and at night, is that dogs want and need to be active during the day. The amount and type of activity depends on the dog, but in general, happy dogs are more physically active than office workers. If dogs didn't need to move around, they'd have evolved as vegetables.

Imagine if someone locked you up in a closet after breakfast with nothing to do, let you out a dinner time, went on a walk with you for a half hour, let you watch TV for a while, then expected you to sleep all night. How long could you be stay happy to live under those conditions?

You may work in an office all day, but in the course of a day you get a lot of activity getting to and from your place of work, moving around, interacting with other people, and some mental stimulation- even if its unpleasant. Most healthy adults could sit at a desk for 8 hours without a breaks if they had to, but if your boss wouldn't let you take a potty break between 8 am and 5 pm, didn't let you break for lunch, and didn't let you take vacations, one of your coworkers would contact the Department of Labor. 

I held off on looking for a dog until I retired, because I didn't think it was fair to any dog to be alone all day. If this doesn't "click" with you, then maybe you should re-examine why you need to have a live dog, and what the dog gets from out of being with you. Being alive isn't enough.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Kind of the opposite of escape artists. There are dogs, though relatively rare, who REALLY do not do well on leash. That's something that can be overcome, but the interm solution is to let them out in a fenced yard to go to the bathroom. Not just reactivity, but fear of the leash/dangerously (to themselves) flipping out on one. Mill rescues are often like this. The ideal home for that situation? Has a fence. There are also some dogs who just really, really, like tearing around off leash, playing fetch, whatever - or who just won't really run, even on a long line- and in some areas the best, safest, way to get that for the dog is a fenced in back yard.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't do crap with my back yard, but that's not to say there's never any benefit of the dog to them. There's minimal to no benefit to MOST dogs, beyond being a kind of nice perk, but once in a while you do find a dog who needs access, at least short term, to that fenced in yard.


I actually think having the room to lounge about in a fenced yard is very handy, or even to dig holes, look for varmits, wade in the creek, essentially be big goofy dogs (mine are Big)-- we started off in a 3rd floor condo doing only walks (onleash near the condo, or drive to off leash park several times a week) and ended up on a couple acres of fenced land... And for big dogs, the latter sure is nice .....


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

psdaengr said:


> I held off on looking for a dog until I retired, because I didn't think it was fair to any dog to be alone all day. If this doesn't "click" with you, then maybe you should re-examine why you need to have a live dog, and what the dog gets from out of being with you. Being alive isn't enough.


Wow, this thread took a wrong turn somewhere.


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## pawsplus (May 4, 2012)

psdaengr said:


> The difference between a dog being crated for 9 hours in the day and at night, is that dogs want and need to be active during the day. The amount and type of activity depends on the dog, but in general, happy dogs are more physically active than office workers. If dogs didn't need to move around, they'd have evolved as vegetables.
> 
> Imagine if someone locked you up in a closet after breakfast with nothing to do, let you out a dinner time, went on a walk with you for a half hour, let you watch TV for a while, then expected you to sleep all night. How long could you be stay happy to live under those conditions?


I agree. When I lived in town with my ex, who had a flexible schedule, the dogs were crated for 3-4 hours at a time. Then he would be home for the afternoon and they would be in with him or out to the yard--whatever. It was perfect. But when that ended I had to re-evaluate, and for me, it would be unconscionable to expect active creatures to be crated all day, unable to urinate. 

I'm surprised that people think it's OK to routinely crate dogs for more than 4 hours at a time during the day. Generally that is the upper limit for everyone I know.



> I held off on looking for a dog until I retired, because I didn't think it was fair to any dog to be alone all day. If this doesn't "click" with you, then maybe you should re-examine why you need to have a live dog, and what the dog gets from out of being with you. Being alive isn't enough.


Blunt, but fair. I wouldn't have a single dog and I wouldn't crate a dog for long periods. A safe fenced yard with a companion is a great way for a dog to spend the owner's workday.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

psdaengr said:


> Issues for the owners, or issues for the dogs?
> 
> The difference between a dog being crated for 9 hours in the day and at night, is that dogs want and need to be active during the day. The amount and type of activity depends on the dog, but in general, happy dogs are more physically active than office workers. If dogs didn't need to move around, they'd have evolved as vegetables.
> 
> ...



You being self-congratulatory, underestimating most owners here, and anthropomorphizing dogs. 

As I said, I work from home. I am home with my dogs, all day, every day. 

Do you know where they are right now? Jack and Bug are asleep in my bed, upstairs. Kylie is asleep in my eldest child's bed, and Thud is in his crate in the kitchen (with the door open) chewing on a bone. One of them -one- is on the same floor as I am. NONE of them are in the room, or within 2 rooms, of me. They have all been in those locations, sans being fed lunch, since 8 a.m when everyone else went to school/work and I sat down at the computer to work. After lunch they all went right back to where they were. A couple of them took chew toys on them. Know what my simply being here does for them? It means Thud gets some extra potty trips, in deference to his age. A lot of the time I crate 3 and train or walk 4, but that hasn't happened much lately. In fact, that's why they're not crated - they usually are, at least for the morning (Busy!). I thought they might enjoy it. I was wrong; they don't care.

Know when the dogs will be interested in me? About 5:30, when my husband comes home and they get a walk. Not just a walk, mind you, since you seem to think most people here are taking their dog around the block, but 5+ miles. when we come home, we don't sack out in front of the television> We do obedience training, we play fetch, or tug, or INTERACT until bedtime. Actively, directly, with no (well, minimal - we have to eat and shower) distractions INTERACT. Train, play, go to a class some days, go on a hike, whatever. Then we start going to bed (10 for the kids, 11 for the husband, much later for me). The dogs don't get crated, they choose who to go to bed with and go when they want.

This is typical of most dog owners here, except maybe some of them have their dogs in crates for a couple of 4+ hours at a time.

You seem to think a dog not being crated but being able to roam around your house is enough; it isn't.

The dog doesn't want time out of their room (where most dogs voluntarily go to chill, because it's their place). They want INTERACTION, exercise and stimulation. And given that even if I crated my dogs for 10 hours a day, and the 5 when no one is awake at night, due to schedules, that still leaves probably 7-8 hours a day I am actively, directly, doing things with them. Roaming around the house or yard doesn't do a THING for most dogs, ESPECIALLY if you're not home. Actively engaging them is where it's at - for them. 

(And by the way, you could happily confine me to my bed for 4 hours twice a day, especially with food and a toy. I promise you I wouldn't complain. I might even pay someone to do it.)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I held off on looking for a dog until I retired, because I didn't think it was fair to any dog to be alone all day. If this doesn't "click" with you, then maybe you should re-examine why you need to have a live dog, and what the dog gets from out of being with you. Being alive isn't enough.


Kudos to you, but at best it's a personal opinion, no more, no less. Perfection in life is not available for most humans, dogs etc but most manage to muddle/struggle through life fine. 

That being said I surely would not ask anyone to re-examine their choices in life, if it doesn't concern me it's really none of my business. I do know there are many happy dogs out in the world that don't have perfect lives. My opinion only.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, lots of assumptions here.



psdaengr said:


> The difference between a dog being crated for 9 hours in the day and at night, is that dogs want and need to be active during the day. The amount and type of activity depends on the dog, but in general, happy dogs are more physically active than office workers. If dogs didn't need to move around, they'd have evolved as vegetables.


And why do you assume I disagree with this? I own two dogs of fairly active breeds. If I didn't make sure they got enough exercise and mental stimulation, they would not be fun to live with.



> Imagine if someone locked you up in a closet after breakfast with nothing to do, let you out a dinner time, went on a walk with you for a half hour, let you watch TV for a while, then expected you to sleep all night. How long could you be stay happy to live under those conditions?


Oh, so all people who crate dogs (or just leave them home alone) for the length of a normal workday only walk their dogs for a half hour and then sit around watching TV all evening, huh?



> I held off on looking for a dog until I retired, because I didn't think it was fair to any dog to be alone all day. If this doesn't "click" with you, then maybe you should re-examine why you need to have a live dog, and what the dog gets from out of being with you. Being alive isn't enough.


I don't know if you meant to address this to me or to the general "you," but like I said, I work from home. My dogs are around me nearly 24/7, and we walk for at LEAST an hour every day, usually closer to two. We often take longer hikes than that, plus we do training and some playing inside. We'd do that even if I worked outside of the home (I used to work 30-40 hours a week as a baker -- even though I was often tired from all of the physical activity at work, I still walked my dogs every day).

I firmly believe that most dogs can lead a happy life if they're left alone for the length of a normal workday -- as long as their owners make sure to tire them out, mentally and physically, before and/or after work. Dogs sleep for much of the day whether their owners are around or not (my two are napping right now). It's how you make the most of their awake time that matters. The choice isn't between "leave the dog home alone all day and walk it for a half hour" and "stay home with the dog all day and take it for nice long walks," and it's ridiculous to suggest that it is.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I also would never leave my dog outside in below zero temperatures for as long as you listed. I consider it kinder and safer to leave him indoors without access to a bathroom than outdoors where something dangerous could happen or he could freeze (I assume for your dogs you've set up some kind of electric heating system or something). Depending on size and breed its possible for a dog to freeze to death without access indoors but left inside without a place to pee, whats the worst that happens? He absolutely _can't_ hold it and pees in the house. Not ideal, but far from the end of the world or dangerous in any way. Pete can easily hold it for 8 hours though (he can go as long as 12 we discovered by accident).

Everyone has a slightly different setup with various risks. It all varies by individual, location and dog... I think its pretty hard to make blanket rules for everyone.



> I held off on looking for a dog until I retired, because I didn't think it was fair to any dog to be alone all day. If this doesn't "click" with you, then maybe you should re-examine why you need to have a live dog, and what the dog gets from out of being with you.* Being alive isn't enough.*


You're right. Much better to be dead than go through the hell that is sleeping on the couch all day. You're retired? At your age how can you possible keep up with the activity level required for a dog to be fulfilled and happy? You're much older and closer to death, do you have a plan to rehome him? How unfair for him to be left behind because you waited so long to get a dog. It actually can be pretty damaging to a dog to _never_ be alone. They often develop terrible anxiety around separation (which other dogs are habituated to). So every time you go to the grocery store your dog probably panics. Why do you insist on torturing him? You monster.

Look, we can all point fingers!

There is no 'perfect' setup. Not for people and not for dogs. A meal, warm and safe shelter and a loving family is more than many people are afforded in this lifetime. My parents didn't stay at home to raise me, _their child_. And guess what? I didn't need them to. Parenting is as close to a 24/7 complete commitment as there is, and most parents still work. Why would a dog need a 24 hour a day servant? They're independent beings, they can and should amuse themselves in times when I'm busy.


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## StitchWitch (Feb 28, 2013)

Twrx said:


> Well if he doesn't have a yard, some high energy breeds may cause problems being inside and bounce back to the rescue. That's hard on the dog as they will begin to develop seperation anxiety issues.
> 
> Has he looked into lower energy breeds? Sure Border Collies are great dogs, but can become highly destructive if they don't get LOTS of exercise. If he wants a mid size dog, look for a whippet (greyhound cross with an extinct irish dog - like a mid size greyhound) rescue. If he is willing to get a bit larger dog (55-75) then he can look into adopting a retired racing greyhound. Despite what most people would think about the second fastest land animal... *They are downright lazy.* They are sprinters, and usually sleep between 16-20 hours per day. There is also no short supply of greyhounds looking for homes as they are retired at 5 (unless they aren't very fast, don't like to race, or get hurt).
> 
> A lot of rescues foster the dogs and match the personality of the dog with the lifestyle of the owner so everyone is happy. The national greyhound association should have a list of rescues near him. The only thing he has to be careful about is the dog getting out off leash (you won't catch a dog that can hit 40+mph in 3 seconds) and around small animals. Most are great with people as they have been extensively handled and socialized since birth.


Hi, I'm new, but I thought I'd jump right in-

On the subject of Greyhounds- Eden, now deceased, was adopted at 4 and passed away at 14. She was one heck of a lazy dog. Definitely not allowed off the leash though. And retired racers are almost guaranteed to have food issues for the rest of their lives, and expect hip issues and urinary tract infections late in life. However, they are big lovers. If you're firm, you can re-train them to stay off the couch too (Eden was a couch hog, she finally learned no meant no...). 

We also have a Border Collie, Twinkie (short for TwinkleToes, the white socks on her paws...) since 8wks and she's 9 this spring. Aside from acquiring a large propensity for separation anxiety (hello, destroyed door & wall molding, mini fire extinguisher, screen door and else-wise...) she also accompanies my dad outside every day to his workshop. She doesn't run off at all though, and one creepy smart cookie. Opens front door on her own and lets herself outside.

On the note of rescues, I'd recommend BRAS if anyone lives in Colorado/Utah area. It's mostly Yorkie rescue, but they get some Maltese and Mini Poodles from time to time. They hit their 2012 goal of 500 adoptions last year too.

I didn't get too far with rescues myself, all the dogs were apparently having home visits and adoptions when I got to them. I was going to drive 2 hours to see a cute 2yr old Mini Poodle when that morning, my mom called me and told me a prowler left a puppy in their yard last night. So now I have a beyond adorable baby to spoil and cuddle. Things work in mysterious ways...

*Edit: Sorry for giant pictures, I didn't think they'd be that large.*


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## psdaengr (Feb 28, 2013)

If I lived in an area where a dog in a fenced yard all day was safe from theft, I'd be willing to fence my yard.

I still wouldn't let it be there unattended, any more than I'd let one of my grandchildren be there unattended.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

psdaengr said:


> If I lived in an area where a dog in a fenced yard all day was safe from theft, I'd be willing to fence my yard.
> 
> I still wouldn't let it be there unattended, any more than I'd let one of my grandchildren be there unattended.


You plan to follow your grandchildren around for the length of their natural lives? _ Never_ leaving them unattended?



> Blunt, but fair. I wouldn't have a single dog and I wouldn't crate a dog for long periods. A safe fenced yard with a companion is a great way for a dog to spend the owner's workday.


Not really. Not really at all. Your setup with your dogs is far from a pinnacle of safety, the risks are different but I would argue they are just as great or greater. I respect that you do things differently and have your reasons, but you know what they say about people in glass houses....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I used to let my dogs roam the yard when I was at work. What's a yard for, right? But ya know what? People are idiots. I saw parents letting tiny tots come up to my fence and stick their hands through the chainlink. OK, my dogs love kids but it still made me nervous. What if the dogs just bounced around and broke the kid's arm? I saw preteens/teenagers annoying my dogs and throwing stuff in the yard. Once my gate was opened (I had dog-proof clips on before, had to use people-proof padlocks after that). Oh, I could go on. It's just not a good idea in general. Now, maybe a covered, locked, dig-proof kennel would be OK to leave a dog in unattended. If it's not on the edge of the property where people can do dumb stuff. And if I lived out in the country, maybe, although there are still incidents of stupid teenager vandalism/theft and "lessons" if your neighbors don't like you (as in, they might let your dogs loose, lure them to their property, shoot them, and tell the sheriff they were attacking their livestock, etc.).


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## pawsplus (May 4, 2012)

aiw said:


> I also would never leave my dog outside in below zero temperatures for as long as you listed. I consider it kinder and safer to leave him indoors without access to a bathroom than outdoors where something dangerous could happen or he could freeze (I assume for your dogs you've set up some kind of electric heating system or something). Depending on size and breed its possible for a dog to freeze to death without access indoors but left inside without a place to pee, whats the worst that happens? He absolutely _can't_ hold it and pees in the house. Not ideal, but far from the end of the world or dangerous in any way. Pete can easily hold it for 8 hours though (he can go as long as 12 we discovered by accident).
> 
> Everyone has a slightly different setup with various risks. It all varies by individual, location and dog... I think its pretty hard to make blanket rules for everyone.


Not sure who you're asking . . . as I've already said, I do have a lovely heated toolshed, which stays between 60 and 70, to which the dogs have access. It has a carpet and dog beds. It also doesn't get that cold here--every so often into the 20s but usually not. My dogs go out with coats on (sometimes "double-bagged" with fleece liner and turnout blanket, like my horses) and they have the toolshed. In the summertime there are fans in the toolshed, but they mostly like digging themselves cool scrapes in the dirt under the deck.  They're comfy and happy.


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## pawsplus (May 4, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I used to let my dogs roam the yard when I was at work. What's a yard for, right? But ya know what? People are idiots. I saw parents letting tiny tots come up to my fence and stick their hands through the chainlink. OK, my dogs love kids but it still made me nervous. What if the dogs just bounced around and broke the kid's arm?


I absolutely agree. And if I lived in town I would be doing what I did when I lived there after I ditched my ex--taking extra time at lunch to drive home and let the dogs out.

Where I live, there are no intruders. I'm on 34 acres in the middle of nowhere. I can't see my neighbors' places from my house. I have a fence out front w/ a gate, and within THAT is the dogs' yard, which has a 7 foot tall fence with a dig barrier. It's about as safe as I can make it.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

StitchWitch said:


> Hi, I'm new, but I thought I'd jump right in-
> 
> On the subject of Greyhounds- Eden, now deceased, was adopted at 4 and passed away at 14. She was one heck of a lazy dog. Definitely not allowed off the leash though. And retired racers are almost guaranteed to have food issues for the rest of their lives, and expect hip issues and urinary tract infections late in life. However, they are big lovers. If you're firm, you can re-train them to stay off the couch too (Eden was a couch hog, she finally learned no meant no...).
> 
> ...


OOOH so cute and adorable! I think your mom got that puppy for you! One lucky dog!!!


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## psdaengr (Feb 28, 2013)

CptJack said:


> You being self-congratulatory, underestimating most owners here, and anthropomorphizing dogs.
> . . .
> This is typical of most dog owners here, except maybe some of them have their dogs in crates for a couple of 4+ hours at a time.
> 
> ...


You seem to think I was speaking to you. I wasn't. But since you are now speaking to me . . .

My response was to crantastic, who was _questioning_ 8-9 hours in a crate during the day vs night, when he'd "hopefully be able to come home mid-day to take them out". I wasn't suggesting that you think about what it would be like to stay in bed for 8 hours with a break in the middle, snacking and playing with a toy. 


I wasn't being self-congratulatory. I'm unhappy that I couldn't adopt a dog when I was younger - that I didn't think I could take care of it. We settled for a pair of cats. Not the same at all. 

I don't underestimate "most owners" of pets anywhere, but I don't over-estimate them either. Having read through many of the thread and postings here, the only thing that separates most of the people here, from those who aren't, is that some seem more willing to share experiences and learn from each other. Some seem ready to rip your head off if you even seem to disagreeing with what they believe, even when you aren't talking to them. Not unusual, but not commendable, either. 

I don't anthropomorphize animals, but find it difficult to explain to a human, except in human terms, what animals seem to feel as evidenced by their actions. There isn't a person alive who can tell you if a dog is "happy" as we understand happiness. Excited, attentive, or interested, but not happy. The evidence that dogs want to be active you can infer from what they do when they aren't restrained, that they need activity, from how they behave when they can't get enough.

I don't think that restraining a dog in a crate is sensible or necessary except when they are being introduced to a new home, transported, protected from kids, or the crate is used for short term toilet training. 

If dogs get enough that they are tired enough to sleep for a few hours in their owners's absence, it isn't important where they sleep, just that they be safe, and that they have something appropriate to do if they wake before the owner, or his agent, returns. 

I stand by my comment about re-examining why we own live animals as pets. I think that every animal owner should do this whenever a lifestyle change could affect the animal, and many responsible pet owners like Crantastic, do.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I am not trying to be self congratulatory but I will almost guarantee my dogs, regardless of my long work days, get much more than most dogs. 

I don't crate. There are ways to keep dogs indoors without crating. That said some dogs NEED to be kept without full access to the house or yard. My young dog is like this. She will bark constantly outside and gets into trouble inside. She's also four and I've had her since 16 weeks. Definitely outside of the potty-training stage. 

There is not one correct way to keep a dog.If your dogs are happy, healthy, given good food, shelter, and exercise... chances are you're doing something right.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

psdaengr said:


> The difference between a dog being crated for 9 hours in the day and at night, is that dogs want and need to be active during the day.


LOL tell that to my dogs who sleep all day when I'm home on my days/half-days off unless I'm actually out working them.



psdaengr said:


> The evidence that dogs want to be active you can infer from what they do when they aren't restrained, that they need activity, from how they behave when they can't get enough.


Except that what my dogs do when they aren't restrained is... sleep. Except when I'm actively exercising them, which happens before or after the sleeping. 

You feel great about your decision - great. I feel great about my decisions, too, but the difference is I'm not incredulous at yours. With my and my husband's work schedules, my dogs are rarely home alone for more than 4-5 hours at a time anyway, but they do have occasional days when they are alone for 9-10 hours. One of them is crated during that time, and he isn't any harder to live with than the dogs who are unrestrained. They're not any harder to live with on 9 hour days than they are on 5 hour days or 0 hour days. And my observations are that even when I am home during the day the dogs mostly sleep outside of the times I am actively engaging them. I'm not sure what else I can infer from that other than that they don't mind sleeping all day?


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## StitchWitch (Feb 28, 2013)

Candydb said:


> OOOH so cute and adorable! I think your mom got that puppy for you! One lucky dog!!!


Oh trust me, she didn't go get me a puppy. She knew I was looking into adopting shelter dogs and supported that. And the other neighbors knew about the prowler too. Apparently, when we took him down to the vet that day, he was in prime condition, with a teeny amount of fleas and needed very light ear drops. We're fairly flabbergasted that someone would just dump this adorable puppy in the middle of the boonies. He won't get bigger than a Havanese, he's adorable and they could have easily sold him on Craigslist for a quick 200 if they wanted to get rid of him. 

He might be turning into a picky eater though, he won't eat the puppy food the vet recommended. 

On-topic; I'd never crate my dog for longer than 4 hours uninterrupted. He does get time-outs though.


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## psdaengr (Feb 28, 2013)

aiw said:


> You plan to follow your grandchildren around for the length of their natural lives? _ Never_ leaving them unattended?
> . . .


I suppose I should have said that my grandchidren are still very young and unable to defend themselves. 

When the time comes that they, or a dog, can defend themselves against people of ill intent, such as kidnappers, rapists, or drive-by shooters, then I'll watch them less closely.

But I'll never, ever, stop worrying about them.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

pawsplus said:


> I have to say that I'm kind of astonished at how many people seem to feel this way. Do you all work at home? Have dog nannies? B/c most people who work are unable to get home during the day, and even if your commute is fairly short, you're going to be gone for 9+ hours. I'm gone for 11 hours. It would be completely unfair-bordering on cruel-to leave a dog inside, unable to urinate, for that long day after day after day.


Let me say I don't work outside the home, now, but I have. I've always had a fenced in area but there is not a chance in heck I'd leave them outside when I'm gone. I have no idea what my dogs would be doing when I'm gone, are they barking, tearing up the lawn, did they get loose, did they get hung up on the fence or something else, by the collars? I don't like dogs wearing collars unless they're on leash because they can get hung up but I feel it's also not responsible to not have some type of identification in case they got loose. What if they bark and bother people? Would a neighbor put something laced with a poison?
My dogs are fine in their crates when I'm gone. They're safe, I know where they are.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Hey, even though I dont choose to crate, I do think it is important that dogs get adopted out-- crate or fenced or whatever....


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

psdaengr said:


> If dogs get enough that they are tired enough to sleep for a few hours in their owners's absence, it isn't important where they sleep, just that they be safe, and that they have something appropriate to do if they wake before the owner, or his agent, returns.


 Thats one of the big problems. Many dogs cannot be safe in their owners absence unless they are restricted to a crate. They chew dangerous objects, destroy things, bark, may not be fully housetrained or panic. They can be a danger to themselves. Which is why many people opt for a crate. 

Another reason is that it can be very dangerous to leave two dogs loose together unattended. Someone here (Cran I think) posted a story about a friend of theirs whose dogs had been left together unattended for years. Never had a problem. Never had a fight. Then one day she came home to one dog literally in pieces scattered throughout the house and the other covered in blood. Even dogs who have never had a problem before could get amped up when no one is around to calm them and many owners here have dogs who have had one or two spats before. Another reason many people crate.

Not to say that will happen with your dogs.... Just that safety from one another is a factor for a lot of people, even if there aren't pre-existing issues.



> When the time comes that they, or a dog, can defend themselves against people of ill intent, such as kidnappers, rapists, or drive-by shooters, then I'll watch them less closely.


Well, I'm not sure how anyone defends themselves against kidnappers or drive-by shootings on a daily basis... Or really if those are realistic concerns for a dog (maybe kidnapping if left in an unlocked area). Babies need to be watched because they haven't figured out how to safely interact with even the most basic situations, puppies need to be watched similarly (why most people crate their puppy when they leave for work). My point was just that neither dogs nor children require direct supervision all day every day. IMO it would be rather codependent and unhealthy. Better to give some time to the dog to just... be a dog (and the same for the person). At least thats how I would rather do things.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> There isn't a person alive who can tell you if a dog is "happy" as we understand happiness. Excited, attentive, or interested, but not happy.


Happy "Enjoying or showing or marked by joy or pleasure" I've seen many dogs that fit the generalized description of the word Happy.

using happy as an adjective just describes something and maybe happy like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (hope I got that right)

What really irks me a bit is a self confessed one dog owner who makes cover-all statements about all dog people not having the ability to read their dogs correctly.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wasn't me, aiw, but I do remember that story!

I leave my two dogs loose now when I leave (I never go for long), because Casper howls if they're not both free. I'd rather not, but it's a calculated risk. I crated at my old house because I lived with my mom and brother, and my other brother came over almost every day with his larger dog and my four-year-old niece. It would not have been a good idea to leave my two out with a rambunctious small child and another dog. They were only crated for two four-hour periods and taken out for an hour at lunch.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yup I can tell when my dogs are happy. Dogs tend to let you know when they're not...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I leave my two together. It's a risk. Summer has separation anxiety and was going into panic attacks, getting sick, and at risk of hurting herself when left alone. Left with another dog though and she's fine. She's so passive that I seriously doubt any issue is going to arise between the two of them. It may happen but I know her having panic attacks WILL happen if I separate them.

Really there is a risk in everything.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Yup, all of us have to decide what amount of risk is acceptable to take for our selves and our dogs.... (One of the saddest thing for me for ex that came out about the Twin towers on 9/11 was... The thought that there was a K-9 crated in the basement when it all went down....)...


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## Indurate (Feb 27, 2013)

aiw said:


> Thats one of the big problems. Many dogs cannot be safe in their owners absence unless they are restricted to a crate. They chew dangerous objects, destroy things, bark, may not be fully housetrained or panic. They can be a danger to themselves. Which is why many people opt for a crate.


I hear that. I didn't crate my Newfies, because they grow so fast, but I did set up a puppy-proofed area for them to be in when unattended. Now they can wander around fairly freely, but two of them wrestle with a lot of gusto, so they're not kept together while I'm away. They're very friendly with each other, but just in case an accident happens... Also, many dogs prefer a crate. I've read that dogs prefer a smaller area they consider 'theirs' as opposed to being set loose in a large area that might seem daunting. My experience with dogs does seem to support this idea, but I'm not certain of it. What I do know is that crate-training is a great tool to house-train and protect dogs while they're learning the ropes. I also use crates or other obstacles so that dogs don't eat each others' food. I like to monitor food intake in case adjustments are needed. 

p.s. I think the reference to kidnappers and rapists was meant as a humorous metaphor to the unexpected bad things that can happen, but I defend myself with a snub-nosed .357 revolver. Luckily not on a daily basis.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Indurate said:


> p.s. I think the reference to kidnappers and rapists was meant as a humorous metaphor to the unexpected bad things that can happen, but I defend myself with a snub-nosed .357 revolver. Luckily not on a daily basis.


Oh... oops! 

I have to admit, I am completely unprepared for a potential drive-by shooting.


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## psdaengr (Feb 28, 2013)

wvasko said:


> Happy "Enjoying or showing or marked by joy or pleasure" I've seen many dogs that fit the generalized description of the word Happy. Using happy as an adjective just describes something and maybe happy like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (hope I got that right)
> 
> What really irks me a bit is a self confessed one dog owner who makes cover-all statements about all dog people not having the ability to read their dogs correctly.


wvasko:

I don't question your right to have opinions, nor do I expect anyone to accept anything I say without checking it against something objective. I don't like artificial battles of opinion. Opinions are like rectums, everyone has one; some of them stink. What generally emerges from them both is wasteful. 

I prefer to talk about thing that are productive. Beauty isn't one of them. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, beauty isn't an emotion which might possibly have some unidirectional correlation with an external set of gestures. It's a subjective opinion that doesn't have a corresponding emotion, much less an objective existence. 

That some common language dictionary confuses an internal emotional state with an external appearance is understandable. People use language sloppily, use redundancy with other forms of communication to try to communicate, and still manage to often fail to communicate. Happiness, joy and pleasure are emotions, which cannot be reliably detected or measured, not by eye, and not by lab tests including electroencephalography. They'e internal. 

It's OK to say "I feel happy". It's unreasonable to say that someone else feels the same thing from their external appearance, what they say, or do - not true of people, not of dogs. Definitely not reasonable for people talking about dogs. That doesn't mean that dogs _can't _feel happy, just that we can't be sure what they're feeling. Emotions aren't physical sensations they are mental reactions that are difficult, if not impossible, to communicate.

Communication is what we're talking about. What we cherish as the key difference between humans and other animals is our skill at verbal communication, and we're not very good, or very consistent, using it. 

Bill Clinton, famously said to a grand jury, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

George W. Bush, said, "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." --Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

Both of these men speak publicly far more than the average person, but can you tell what either of these men was thinking or feeling at the time from those statements, when they were trying to communicate? I can't, not even when I watch videos, and presumably, we're all the same species.

Dogs don't lie because they can't speak, not because they can't or don't practice deceptive behavior. (There's a documented case of a small dog on a diet luring two much larger dogs away from their food by pretending there was a threat she could see out the window.) 

I may believe that dogs are generally less skilled than people in concealing their gross emotional state. But given their more limited means of non-verbal communication, is it reasonable to assume they are more skilled than humans at communicating more subtle emotions? The inability of any person to tell the difference between another person looking happy and feeling happy (or any other emotion) is why actors can make a living. 

Even if we assume that dogs aren't being deceptive, that doesn't mean that we can tell if what we believe is a dogs expression of joy or pleasure, means they feel what we individually feel when we don't try to conceal how we feel, or if it is the normal state of mind of dogs being dogs. 

It may be a reasonable assumption that dogs are better able to "read" the emotional state of dogs than are people, but even dogs can misread other dogs. A dog with cropped ears and docked tail on a short leash is robbed of most of its intermediate range communication postures for the expression of "I'm not a threat" - probably the single most important communications for a pack animal. But that doesn't stop professional breeders who have experience with many dogs of the same breed from cropping ears, docking tails and training their "best" dogs to walk around in an unnatural head-high posture for judging. 

The assumption by anyone, that the experience and knowledge of a person who they've never met, can be measured by the self-confessed ownership of a quantity of an object being discussed belittles all childless schoolteachers, almost all engineers, all pilots, etc , who cannot, or choose not, to own things that they understand very well, and over-values some people who own things simply because they can afford them.

I'm not saying that you or I fall into either classification, because but it's not reasonable to assume we do.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

psdaengr said:


> I suppose I should have said that my grandchidren are still very young and unable to defend themselves.
> 
> When the time comes that they, or a dog, can defend themselves against people of ill intent, such as kidnappers, rapists, or drive-by shooters, then I'll watch them less closely.
> 
> But I'll never, ever, stop worrying about them.


Or you know, you may have one of those dogs that runs up to the people of ill intent and wants to be BEST friends with them. In which case you can't trust them alone with strangers potentially having access to them.


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## StitchWitch (Feb 28, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Or you know, you may have one of those dogs that runs up to the people of ill intent and wants to be BEST friends with them. In which case you can't trust them alone with strangers potentially having access to them.


This is why my family's border collie is a terrible guard dog. She'll bark and yelp anytime (well used to, more of the younger dog's prerogative now) someone comes up the driveway, but ultimately after running up and barking, will turn into a pile of love-goo should you even remotely look like you'll pet her.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> all pilots, etc , who cannot, or choose not, to own things that they understand very well,


Well I think a teacher in the 10th year of teaching is a much better teacher than 1st year, this continues on with engineers and especially pilots on maiden flights versus 10 years of flying. I believe the same guidelines with a 1 dog owner who through the years adds 9 more dogs to their resume. 



> Excited, attentive, or interested, but not happy.


As a dog trainer with 90 breeds trained over a very long period of time and dealing with many owners I'm going use the word "Happy" to possibly describe the Excited/Attentive/Interested dog. With me the easier, simpler description works. 

Just cause it's a pilot's 1st flight or an owner's 1st dog it does not make them bad people just not as experienced.


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## Blueglass (Mar 5, 2013)

I can totally sympathize with tour friend. My husband and I put in three different applications for three different dogs and never heard anything back. It was so discouraging! We looked on petfinder. We searched and searched. The dirt application we put in was for a pup who had been given up, because she was attacked by her owners other dog and ended up losing an eye. The owners didn't want her so they were going to euthanize the poor thing. My husband and I knew then that we wanted to adopt! Once we didn't her anything from that particular shelter about that dog, we put in two additional applications for two other shelters. We almost have up on our rescue dream. A couple of weeks later we got an email back saying that we could do a meet and greet! We drove 5 hours to meet our pup and were allowed to adopt and bring him home! 

It is very frustrating that some shelters don't seem as excited to find home for their pups. I wouldn't give up my pup Blue, but to think that the same thing could have happened with him can be discouraging. I hope your friend finds a good puppy/dog! Keep heads up!

Btw: we adopted our pup through a shelter that uses the popular pilot n paws people. Maybe they can look them up to find if they are doing any drop offs at a shelter near them.


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## StitchWitch (Feb 28, 2013)

Blueglass said:


> I can totally sympathize with tour friend. My husband and I put in three different applications for three different dogs and never heard anything back. It was so discouraging! We looked on petfinder. We searched and searched. The dirt application we put in was for a pup who had been given up, because she was attacked by her owners other dog and ended up losing an eye. The owners didn't want her so they were going to euthanize the poor thing. My husband and I knew then that we wanted to adopt! Once we didn't her anything from that particular shelter about that dog, we put in two additional applications for two other shelters. We almost have up on our rescue dream. A couple of weeks later we got an email back saying that we could do a meet and greet! We drove 5 hours to meet our pup and were allowed to adopt and bring him home!
> 
> It is very frustrating that some shelters don't seem as excited to find home for their pups. I wouldn't give up my pup Blue, but to think that the same thing could have happened with him can be discouraging. I hope your friend finds a good puppy/dog! Keep heads up!
> 
> Btw: we adopted our pup through a shelter that uses the popular pilot n paws people. Maybe they can look them up to find if they are doing any drop offs at a shelter near them.


Ouch, five hours? Oh woe is the gas! 

I almost did that for a yorkie, but then we ended up moving and that was a no-go.


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## Blueglass (Mar 5, 2013)

Oh yes! It was a 10+ hour trip. The gas wasn't all bad. It was the tolls that about killed. We ended up paying around $40 for all the tolls there and back!


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## Blueglass (Mar 5, 2013)

StitchWitch said:


> Ouch, five hours? Oh woe is the gas!
> 
> I almost did that for a yorkie, but then we ended up moving and that was a no-go.


Oh yes! It was a 10+ hour trip. The gas wasn't all bad. It was the tolls that about killed. We ended up paying around $40 for all the tolls there and back!


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## StitchWitch (Feb 28, 2013)

Blueglass said:


> Oh yes! It was a 10+ hour trip. The gas wasn't all bad. It was the tolls that about killed. We ended up paying around $40 for all the tolls there and back!


I'm so glad I don't live in a toll area. The only toll road I know of is the bridge from I90 and down by the peninsula here in WA.


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## Blueglass (Mar 5, 2013)

StitchWitch said:


> I'm so glad I don't live in a toll area. The only toll road I know of is the bridge from I90 and down by the peninsula here in WA.


I use to live in Georgia and there are rarely ever any tolls around for miles. When I moved to the MD/ NJ area tolls increased a whole lot!!! I'm still not use to it!


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## StitchWitch (Feb 28, 2013)

Blueglass said:


> I use to live in Georgia and there are rarely ever any tolls around for miles. When I moved to the MD/ NJ area tolls increased a whole lot!!! I'm still not use to it!


There's a few toll roads in Denver, and before we moved up to WA, we had taken a trip to Denver from Grand Junction, and taken a toll road. We of course, got the annoying pink letter like 5 months after that, paid it, and now they won't stop sending it, demanding 50 dollars every time. Tolls are just irritating.


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## Blueglass (Mar 5, 2013)

StitchWitch said:


> There's a few toll roads in Denver, and before we moved up to WA, we had taken a trip to Denver from Grand Junction, and taken a toll road. We of course, got the annoying pink letter like 5 months after that, paid it, and now they won't stop sending it, demanding 50 dollars every time. Tolls are just irritating.


Extremely annoying!! I still can't believe how many are around here.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

StitchWitch said:


> There's a few toll roads in Denver, and before we moved up to WA, we had taken a trip to Denver from Grand Junction, and taken a toll road. We of course, got the annoying pink letter like 5 months after that, paid it, and now they won't stop sending it, demanding 50 dollars every time. Tolls are just irritating.


Blech I hate tolls when I lived in Houston I had to deal with them a lot now San Antonio is talking about tolls DO. NOT. WANT. DX


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Rescues in my area love to say "No fence = no dog!" My city doesn't allow fences... of any kind. We are sneaking under the law by using an electric fence which is also technically not allowed. How is anyone supposed to adopt a dog? My uncle went through 4 or 5 different rescues before getting his little terrier/animal mixy mix dog. One rescue grilled him as to why he put down his 18 year old female dog who had passed a mere few months ago. Way to open up new wounds... As if he put her down because he was tired of her! She was 18, blind, and could no longer walk. I think it was time (it was actually passed time, in my opinion).

I dare say some rescues find electric fences cruel. I don't mind taking a dog outside on a leash, especially a puppy or newly adopted dog who is still learning potty training. I don't mind even doing that for a whole year if the dog takes a while to get it right! Pepper has been with us for 10 years, I expect ~5+ years out of him. Taking him out on a leash would have gotten tedious long, long ago. I would love to get a real fence. But I do not love applying for special permits (and probably getting denied) and then spending thousands on installing a fancy fence. If you are going to get a fence in our city, it better be beautiful and maintained!

I would not leave my dog unattended outside just on the premise that someone might harass/bother/steal him. Fence, tethered, e-collared. He can't be out along for longer than a couple minutes. 8+ hours is out of the question. Its whatever works for you. I know it wouldn't work for our family.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

We have a regular fence on 2 acres, our berner is out all day in it, usually someone is home, maybe on the weekends on Sports day we might be gone maybe 6 hours thats very rare (once every few months) and he will not approach strangers so is not about to go off with anyone, but it does bother me that someone could open our gates and walk away because I think he Would run out then.....
The other option, which DH did last week when there was a hole in the fence and he had to leave him, was to tether him in our garage... While I felt ok he would nt be running off, I do worry that someone will steal him-- Berners are valuable and he is a beautiful dog-- or harass him or even worse..... He is sort of defenseless tethered....
(for ex we had a handy man working on the property one day, and he yelled at the dog for carrying off his tools, so Maxie spent the rest of the day hiding in the bushes til the man was gone....(he knew he wasnt supposed to be barking at him, he has a huge bark, so this was his other option....I guess there are risks to everything and you have to decide what is acceptable to you....


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

We allow people without fences to adopt dogs as long as their references are really good and we feel they will exercise dogs. Honestly homes with no fences and fences are pretty equal to us because a lot of people with fences just toss their dogs outside in the backyard for exercise and well that's really not adequate. Positives and negatives for each situation. I've found a lot of rescues are run by people without the ability or energy to actually look into situations and just rely on a checklist.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't exercise my current dog a ton in bad weather/cold because she doesn't need it, but I contacted a greyhound rescue and said I had no yard but would be willing to walk in all weather if necessary (true) and I never even got a reply.


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