# New owner tips?



## Psycho07 (Apr 15, 2016)

Hello. Im thinking of getting an amstaff or a pitbull but i need to know if they can live in an appartment because i dont own a house with yard. I think that an amstaff dog will be better for me because ive read that its less energetic, less aggresive and more friendly than pitbulls. So that was my first questions, lets now say that i got one of these 2, i have really no experience with what to do for the beginning.. Should i go for walks with it as its still puppy or i need to wait a period of time? Should i meet other dogs for its own socialization? Should i teach it commands such as stay, come etc from the beginning? im a new owner and i want some tips and i hope u help me out 
P.s. give me your own tips as well


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yes, they can live in an apartment, but keep in mind that these breeds are often on banned lists so it may be harder to find a place to rent.

Whether you can take a puppy for walks immediately depends on the risk of parvo in your area. Some areas are extremely low risk, but others are quite high. It also depends on whether you can find a place relatively free of other dogs, or if the dogs in your apartment complex are vaccinated and healthy, etc. The key socialization window closes at 16 weeks, so it's very important to get the puppy out to new places and to meet new people, even if you have to carry him because of disease risk.

Training should be started immediately. Puppies are like little sponges. The best thing you can do is sign up for a puppy class and they will show you how to train basic obedience, as well as providing play time with other puppies and socialization with strange people.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

It can be incredibly difficult to find rental housing that allows bully breeds (American Pit Bull Terrier, Am. Staff, Staffordshire Terrier and any dog that LOOKS like one of those breeds or a mix of them). Even if your current apartment complex allows all breeds, you will need to consider the chances of moving in the next 10-15 years; how much you could expect to afford to pay over and above the typical rental rate to find a place that allows all breeds and/or what type of neighborhood you'd be willing to deal with; and what you'd do if your apartment complex sold and the new owner's banned bullies.
Check for breed bans in your town and nearby towns and anyplace you'd likely expect to move to or travel to in the future.

When you say "less aggressive" and "more friendly", are you talking about dog-dog interactions (dog aggression) or dog-human interactions? Dog aggression and human aggression are NOT the same thing and aren't generally even connected to each other. Both breeds and the breed type as a whole tend to be very human friendly and very low human aggression.

It can be very hard to find a good breeder of the bully breeds and a lot of tendency towards or away from dog-aggression (DA) depends on the lines of the dogs. Dog aggression is mainly genetic, you can do things in terms of socializing and training that might tip the scales towards less risk of DA but you cannot socialize dog aggression out of a dog. Any breed can run the risk of being DA, bullies have a slightly higher tendency of being DA and dog-selective. So you just have to be aware and prepared that it COULD be an issue when the dog matures.

"Less energetic" is also relative. Both breeds are terriers, both are going to be medium-high to high energy. Especially when under aged about 4. Cuddle bugs indoors usually but expect to provide at least a good BRISK hour long walk daily at minimum in addition to several potty breaks (more for a puppy) and another shorter walk or activity. My bully breed fosters needed between an 1 and 2.5 hours of daily exercise as young adults. My 5 year old pit bull needs about 45 minutes of brisk walking plus time to run the yard and I consider her moderate on the typical pit bull energy scale. 

I have heard that APBT/AmStaffs can be more susceptible to parvo than some other breeds (Rotties are also apparently more at risk of parvo) so definitely find out the risks of parvo from veterinarians who are familiar with your area; not just your city but your neighborhood. My area, parvo is a big problem. My vet clinic sees several parvo cases every WEEK just from one large apartment complex near to it. 

Wonderful dogs but due to (unfounded/misguided) reputation problems, they come with extra burdens and important issues to consider that a lot of breeds don't.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

For things to do, download these two free books: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads and read both of them. Take the 'warnings' in the books with a grain of salt, they can be a little extreme. But, the advice and the methods are a great place to start for training and socializing, etc. Don't get obsessed with the schedules and deadlines in the books.


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## akasha (Apr 6, 2016)

It's hard to get an apartment that will allow those breeds. If you want, why not go for a english bulldog or a even a pug. They fit into apartments most definitely and will conform to your lifestyle/personality pretty well. You definitely won't have trouble looking for a place with a pug. You should get your dog used to collar and leash training from a young age. Keep his collar on at home and make sure you get a tag on there, you never know what might happen he could slide through the door and take off! If they're puppies, you shouldn't take them on really long walks with rough trails or even jog with him since his joints will still be developing you don't want him to develop any problems at an early age. But you will need to walk him often throughout the day to avoid accidents, though, accidents are still bound to happen. DEFINITELY socialize him as much as you can, not just with other dogs but with other animals, kids, and people. Keep an eye out for dogs you don't know, make sure there's no aggression to the pup, sometimes dogs like to show dominance. I played with my pups ears, paws, and pulled on his tail a lot (not hard) so he would be used to those kinds of things--I didn't know many people with kids at the time so yeah.. me being annoying to the pup is the best I could do lol. Your dog's behavior reflects upon your training. My dogs are all well socialized, very friendly, loves kids...sometimes they like to herd them since they're small lol and doesn't bother the cats really. Well they get curious but they know the cat is the boss! You could always teach them tricks when they're older but why wait? It's good to start young, dogs are smart they will get it if you're patient. At 3 months my dogs were already potty trained, knew sit, stay, wait, paw, and high five... took awhile to learn down, roll over, and bang though. Good luck hope you find the right pup for you!


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## Psycho07 (Apr 15, 2016)

Thank u for your advice


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

I have 0 experience with dogs so take my advise with a grain of salt. But I don't think getting a breed like pitbull is a good decision. Think about the amount of apartments who will even want to give you a lease. Also think about how these are some of the dogs that ends up in shelters the most along with them being #1 dogs that kills most humans. It's not their fault but the inexperienced owners that's at fault and likely you seem pretty inexperienced as well. But if you really want to tackle this then make sure to do a lot of research on training and needs your dog will have. They seem very athletic type of dogs so I would guess that you will probably have to keep them active a lot and socialized.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

nirrrr said:


> I have 0 experience with dogs so take my advise with a grain of salt. But I don't think getting a breed like pitbull is a good decision. Think about the amount of apartments who will even want to give you a lease. Also think about how these are some of the dogs that ends up in shelters the most along *with them being #1 dogs that kills most humans.* It's not their fault but the inexperienced owners that's at fault and likely you seem pretty inexperienced as well. But if you really want to tackle this then make sure to do a lot of research on training and needs your dog will have. They seem very athletic type of dogs so I would guess that you will probably have to keep them active a lot and socialized.


I bolded a part of your comment because I would like to point out that it is a bunch of bull pucky. The breed based bite and fatality statistics are junk, the Centers for Disease Control no longer classifies bite fatalities by breed at all and recognizes that prior statistics related to breed fatalities were severely flawed studies. Other research and court cases recognize the same and even some insurance companies are re-evaluating their breed based premiums or denials to be more in-line with actuarial numbers where bite history matters far more than breed or assumed breed. 

I won't disagree with the athletic aspect nor that it is hard to rent with them.

But there is ZERO evidence that the bully breeds are more dangerous to humans than any other dog type or breed.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > I have 0 experience with dogs so take my advise with a grain of salt. But I don't think getting a breed like pitbull is a good decision. Think about the amount of apartments who will even want to give you a lease. Also think about how these are some of the dogs that ends up in shelters the most along *with them being #1 dogs that kills most humans.* It's not their fault but the inexperienced owners that's at fault and likely you seem pretty inexperienced as well. But if you really want to tackle this then make sure to do a lot of research on training and needs your dog will have. They seem very athletic type of dogs so I would guess that you will probably have to keep them active a lot and socialized.
> ...


I am sure it's not fully right but if theirs is flawed then so is stats for other dogs. With that in theory they would still be #1 but at a lesser degree.And obviously we all know it's never the dog that's at fault but the bad humans who raise them poorly. For that reason alone I don't think anyone should get a pit as a 1st time inexperienced owner.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

nirrrr said:


> I am sure it's not fully right but if theirs is flawed then so is stats for other dogs. With that in theory they would still be #1 but at a lesser degree.And obviously we all know it's never the dog that's at fault but the bad humans who raise them poorly. For that reason alone I don't think anyone should get a pit as a 1st time inexperienced owner.


No. Just no. 

Pitbull bite stats are flawed for a number of reasons, but up high on that list is that non-Pitbulls who bite are reported as Pitbulls. Therefore, Pitbull bites would drop significantly and bites from other breeds would rise significantly, if the reporting was done in a non-breed-biased way.

Please don't spew hateful and ignorant facts, like "Pitbulls kill more people than any other dog", if you haven't done the research yourself. Repeating what the media feeds you is dangerous and inadvisable.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Hiraeth said:


> No. Just no.
> 
> Pitbull bite stats are flawed for a number of reasons, but up high on that list is that non-Pitbulls who bite are reported as Pitbulls. Therefore, Pitbull bites would drop significantly and bites from other breeds would rise significantly, if the reporting was done in a non-breed-biased way.
> 
> Please don't spew hateful and ignorant facts, like "Pitbulls kill more people than any other dog", if you haven't done the research yourself. Repeating what the media feeds you is dangerous and inadvisable.


And to assist in such research....

http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/415538-pit-bull-recommended-reading.html


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure it's not fully right but if theirs is flawed then so is stats for other dogs. With that in theory they would still be #1 but at a lesser degree.And obviously we all know it's never the dog that's at fault but the bad humans who raise them poorly. For that reason alone I don't think anyone should get a pit as a 1st time inexperienced owner.
> ...


Can you show me any sources? I clearly stated that it's humans and bad training that's at fault. Only links and sources available all points to this as being true and by a ridiculously loosided number. I can show you sources but I am sure you can google it and find plenty of links.Also you do realize that even if 90% + of the reports were wrong that pit bulls still would be #1 and still by a large amount.

As I stated before pit bulls are awesome dogs but inexperienced humans screw them over . It's not the dogs fault at all. Every pitbull I met is awesome because they have good owners. I am not being hateful at all. But just informing new inexperienced owners (such as myself) that they should not be lazy and negligent and should prepare themselves even more then they would if they decided to get something like a Labrador or a pug.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

nirrrr said:


> Can you show me any sources? I clearly stated that it's humans and bad training that's at fault. Only links and sources available all points to this as being true and by a ridiculously loosided number. I can show you sources but I am sure you can google it and find plenty of links.Also you do realize that even if 90% + of the reports were wrong that pit bulls still would be #1 and still by a large amount.
> 
> As I stated before pit bulls are awesome dogs but inexperienced humans screw them over . It's not the dogs fault at all. Every pitbull I met is awesome because they have good owners. I am not being hateful at all. But just informing new inexperienced owners (such as myself) that they should not be lazy and negligent and should prepare themselves even more then they would if they decided to get something like a Labrador or a pug.


Here ya go--



Shell said:


> And to assist in such research....
> 
> http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/415538-pit-bull-recommended-reading.html


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> Hiraeth said:
> 
> 
> > No. Just no.
> ...


Just skimmed through this(actually just finished work(finance dude so I read statistics /ratios and financial statements all day and night). But let's assume that 80% of the cases the cops mistake the identity of the dog. Pit bulls is one of the most popularly known dogs but I can still assume that cops guesses right 20% of the times . But this still is a huge number statistically speaking. Also this doesn't even take into account that when a dog kills that it should be pretty clear that the dog would be placed under some sort of a custody and the dogs identification would be written down. Sure in some cases they might still get it wrong but most of the times they should have it. But like I said even if they get it wrong 80 or even more % of the times pit bulls would still be #1 especially with the amount of times they do kill and is clear and that's because they have one of the strongest bites (stopping power) of any dog(I think Rottweiler is 2nd?). 

This is why they should be raised by good experienced or at least knowledgeable owners who don't neglect their dog. This along with them being in shelters most often suggest that they have horrible owners who doesn't raise them right and this is the only thing I am trying to say is that be a good human being and raise them in a happy environment to prevent them from being in shelters or worse. This again isn't a knock on them.

It's kinda like a tiger. If Tigers were allowed to be pets(some places they are) , they would be the new leaders with the highest stopping power ( I assume). So they would have to be raised carefully as well especially since their temperament is not noted to be loving (like it is for the pit bulls who are actually awesome family dogs if raised right). If the tiger was the size of a Yorkie I don't think anyone would care cause they wouldn't have stopping power even if they were aggressive.

Kinda went off the road a bit but hopefully you get the point. I love pit bulls but I am not experienced enough to ever get them.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Also just pointing out that I just skimmed through that very short thread but I will reread everything at night. But after doing my own Google search on this topic trying to find a refute to the numbers, I barely found anything concrete. And if you want to refute numbers from as many sources as available on this topic then you need to find at least a bunch of concrete evidence for the other side. If you can't then you really can't prove otherwise. (and so far I was unsuccessful but I will search again later tonight)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

nirrrr said:


> Just skimmed through this(actually just finished work(finance dude so I read statistics /ratios and financial statements all day and night). But let's assume that 80% of the cases the cops mistake the identity of the dog. Pit bulls is one of the most popularly known dogs but I can still assume that cops guesses right 20% of the times . But this still is a huge number statistically speaking. Also this doesn't even take into account that when a dog kills that it should be pretty clear that the dog would be placed under some sort of a custody and the dogs identification would be written down. Sure in some cases they might still get it wrong but most of the times they should have it. But like I said even if they get it wrong 80 or even more % of the times pit bulls would still be #1 especially with the amount of times they do kill and is clear and that's because they have one of the strongest bites (stopping power) of any dog(I think Rottweiler is 2nd?).
> *Try doing more than skimming the information before you continue to comment with ill-informed assumptions. For example, let's work on the assumption that the breed ID is right 20% of the time, unless you're taking into consideration the number of a given breed/type in the general population of dogs in the US, then the number of a given breed who bite doesn't tell you much of anything. Pit bulls do not have an usually strong bite, they have a bite force proportionate to their physical size.*
> 
> This is why they should be raised by good experienced or at least knowledgeable owners who don't neglect their dog. This along with them being in shelters most often suggest that they have horrible owners who doesn't raise them right and this is the only thing I am trying to say is that be a good human being and raise them in a happy environment to prevent them from being in shelters or worse. This again isn't a knock on them.
> ...


If you love pit bulls, then become educated and dig deep into the statistics. Misinformation is what leads to bad assumptions, breed bans, insurance bans, and innocent dogs ending up in shelters or dead and loving owners in a rock vs hard place situation.



nirrrr said:


> Also just pointing out that I just skimmed through that very short thread but I will reread everything at night. But after doing my own Google search on this topic trying to find a refute to the numbers, I barely found anything concrete. And if you want to refute numbers from as many sources as available on this topic then you need to find at least a bunch of concrete evidence for the other side. If you can't then you really can't prove otherwise. (and so far I was unsuccessful but I will search again later tonight)


And no, not really. Refuting poorly research, biased information does not require finding "concrete evidence" for the other side. All it takes it showing the huge holes in the numbers being presented as "fact"


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

IMO depends on if you have outside access from your unit. If you do, it could work. If you have to use the stairs or elevator you could run into trouble. Biggest of which likely being owners of small dogs being terrified of riding the elevator with you, encounters in the hallway, etc.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > Just skimmed through this(actually just finished work(finance dude so I read statistics /ratios and financial statements all day and night). But let's assume that 80% of the cases the cops mistake the identity of the dog. Pit bulls is one of the most popularly known dogs but I can still assume that cops guesses right 20% of the times . But this still is a huge number statistically speaking. Also this doesn't even take into account that when a dog kills that it should be pretty clear that the dog would be placed under some sort of a custody and the dogs identification would be written down. Sure in some cases they might still get it wrong but most of the times they should have it. But like I said even if they get it wrong 80 or even more % of the times pit bulls would still be #1 especially with the amount of times they do kill and is clear and that's because they have one of the strongest bites (stopping power) of any dog(I think Rottweiler is 2nd?).
> ...


I clearly stated that I will reread everything at night so you can take all my assumptions with a grain of salt. 

Your obviously pretty emotionally invested in this topic. example of pit bulls not having a strong bite but a "proportionate bite" is just one example of you being emotionally biased. no one would care if a Yorkie was out to kill you. Also even if we threw away statistics, a little YouTube search on "dog kills" got me about 4 pit bulls and no other dogs on the first page." I blame this on people not the dogs because their owners should know that the dog only wants to protect them and most attacks happens when they aren't being watched over. But you don't even agree with it being humans fault. 

But anyway since you feel so deeply about this I will do my thorough research on the subject before continuing this debate. But I do hope your the one who is right. While I am at it, can you please link me some good sources I can read up on? (Other then the 1 link on that thread you posted earlier).


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

ugh yes who gives a crap about "statistics" when it comes to pitbull bites. who cares that Chihuahuas or whatever bites more. The point is pitbulls can do much more serious damage when they do attack. Because they are powerfully built especially their jaws. And they have very high pain tolerance. So being kicked, punched, or even shot may not stop the dog's attack. This has been shown, unfortunately, many times and is the reason pitbull attacks often receive a lot of publicity. That's why people are not being 'ignorant' when they dislike or fear pitbulls. Yes most are sweet as sugar and that's all well and good; the point is, when they do decide to attack, the outcome is usually more more severe than it would have been from other breeds. the attack which triggered the ban here in Ontario; the dog was shot MULTIPLE TIMES including the head by police and still would not release it's bite. They had to drag an old mattress over from a dumpster and suffocate the dog with it. That's why pitbulls can be scary. Few other breeds are so determined to finish an attack once it has started.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

This being literally the first link I found when I typed in "dog bites can't be proven" into the Google search engine isn't a good first step into proving myself wrong . But I will surely keep researching on this topic and post my findings at night. Again I really hope your right and that I am not researching to refute against myself for nothing. The thread actually basically refutes most of the point you made but I will assume that it's just wrong for your sake and continue on the research. 

Just to be clear, it's not the bite that matters but the stopping power(like the poster below just mentioned) A Yorkie might bite me a million times and I would probably just laugh or be annoyed. But you better believe that I will run like hell if a neighbors pit is out to bite me. 

Lol it actually went against me to on me saying its all humans fault.

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pit-bull-myths.php


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

> *Can you show me any sources?*...*I can show you sources but I am sure you can google it and find plenty of links.*


Interesting argument.

The Skeptic community is usually a good place to find a decent critical evaluation of the evidence on a given subject. Here is a good Skeptoid episode about pitbulls:

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4288

Personally, I think people make this issue too black and white. Breed bans are not good policy, but inexperienced owners probably shouldn't own large, powerful breeds either. The great danger of focusing on pitbulls is forgetting that ANY large, powerful dog is JUST AS DANGEROUS in the wrong hands. If you ban pitbulls you just open the door for irresponsible or naive owners to get GSDs, malamutes, cane corsos, etc instead. The dog's status as a pit bull is immaterial. The focus should be on educating people about the higher stakes involved when you raise and train any dog with 300 pounds of bite force.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Luxorien said:


> > *Can you show me any sources?*...*I can show you sources but I am sure you can google it and find plenty of links.*
> 
> 
> Interesting argument.
> ...


So you agree with me that new owners shouldn't get powerful dogs like pit bulls? That was the only point I was trying to make. 

One thing I am reading while I research is that it's not just their bite force but their aggression when they do bite and the fact that they latch on that kills. I still find it impossible that if a dog does kill a human being that it wouldn't be identified when taken in custody or put in a shelter to be put down.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

nirrrr said:


> I clearly stated that I will reread everything at night so you can take all my assumptions with a grain of salt.
> 
> Your obviously pretty emotionally invested in this topic. example of pit bulls not having a strong bite but a "proportionate bite" is just one example of you being emotionally biased. no one would care if a Yorkie was out to kill you. Also even if we threw away statistics, a little YouTube search on "dog kills" got me about 4 pit bulls and no other dogs on the first page." I blame this on people not the dogs because their owners should know that the dog only wants to protect them and most attacks happens when they aren't being watched over. But you don't even agree with it being humans fault.
> 
> But anyway since you feel so deeply about this I will do my thorough research on the subject before continuing this debate. But I do hope your the one who is right. While I am at it, can you please link me some good sources I can read up on? (Other then the 1 link on that thread you posted earlier).


One link? It was a link to a thread with several links for further research and for concepts which could be researched separately if needed. A YouTube search is not research, not solid stats and not science. Did you miss the link about a SHELTIE being ID'd in the press as a pit? Or did you miss the fact that the vast majority of stats rely on second or even third sources to report breed, which is why CDC stopped using breed as a classifier. 

Pits are crappy guard dogs, check out how many police departments use them for sniffer dogs but recognize that they are bad as take-down type dogs. 



nirrrr said:


> This being literally the first link I found when I typed in "dog bites can't be proven" into the Google search engine isn't a good first step into proving myself wrong . But I will surely keep researching on this topic and post my findings at night. Again I really hope your right and that I am not researching to refute against myself for nothing. The thread actually basically refutes most of the point you made but I will assume that it's just wrong for your sake and continue on the research.
> 
> Just to be clear, it's not the bite that matters but the stopping power(like the poster below just mentioned) A Yorkie might bite me a million times and I would probably just laugh or be annoyed. But you better believe that I will run like hell if a neighbors pit is out to bite me.
> 
> ...


Read up on the background of the Dogsbite website. 

Oh, and are you sure those dogs you found on the YouTube search were American Pit Bull Terriers? Or are you just relying on the user reported breed? 

Proportionate bite means that a dog of similar physical size has similar physical abilities to bite; nothing more or less. 


There is a difference between emotionally invested and unable to evaluate good data VS emotionally invested because so much bad data has caused a lot of heartache to a lot of good people and dogs.



nirrrr said:


> So you agree with me that new owners shouldn't get powerful dogs like pit bulls? That was the only point I was trying to make.
> 
> One thing I am reading while I research is that it's not just their bite force but their aggression when they do bite and the fact that they latch on that kills. I still find it impossible that if a dog does kill a human being that it wouldn't be identified when taken in custody or put in a shelter to be put down.


Then you really know nothing about the identification of dogs. Nor about bite incidents, nor about the legal definition of a dog bite fatality.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Shell said:


> One link? It was a link to a thread with several links for further research and for concepts which could be researched separately if needed. A YouTube search is not research, not solid stats and not science. Did you miss the link about a SHELTIE being ID'd in the press as a pit? Or did you miss the fact that the vast majority of stats rely on second or even third sources to report breed, which is why CDC stopped using breed as a classifier.
> 
> Pits are crappy guard dogs, check out how many police departments use them for sniffer dogs but recognize that they are bad as take-down type dogs.
> 
> ...


i was going to write a long post refuting every point you made but at this point its obvious that you will just use confirmation bias to try to refute the countless different sites and threads and resources that states that pitbull is #1. You obviously dont understand how statistics work. like i said even if 80% of the dogs identified as pitbulls werent actually of pitbulls and instead of the umbrella classification of a pitbull then they would still would be #1. but honestly at this point i dont think you will agree regardless. 

Just keep in mind the pits are put down every year at a ridiculous pace. something like 600-1 then do you still not think that they can be a bit more dangerous then other dogs? how can you even refute this? Are they the most breed? nope. theres others who are breed more like labs and goldens but when was the last time you heard them kill anyone or any bad news around them? 600-1 is ridiculous how can you not see that? no matter how popular they are and how much dogs have been breed, this is a ridiculous pace. Maybe you should concentrate all this emotion on an organization that stops breeding them this much because that would solve them from being murdered instead of arguing MY POINT THAT new inexperienced people shouldnt get big dogs that might be a lot to handle who has stopping power that can be fatal.

last point i want to make before we go back to OP topic is that when i say pitbull, i dont just mean pitbull but of any dog that has similar stopping power. New people without experience should be concentrated on raising a dog right and without negligence. this goes for all types of dogs who have guard dog tendencies who has tremendous stopping power.

But i assume you probably dont even agree with my last statement. At least we can agree one 1 thing that we as humans should do our best to provide the best possible life for our companions we can possibly give and not send them to shelters.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

nirrrr said:


> So you agree with me that new owners shouldn't get powerful dogs like pit bulls? That was the only point I was trying to make.
> 
> One thing I am reading while I research is that it's not just their bite force but their aggression when they do bite and the fact that they latch on that kills. I still find it impossible that if a dog does kill a human being that it wouldn't be identified when taken in custody or put in a shelter to be put down.


I agree that a pitbull (or any similarly powerful dog) is probably not the best dog for a first time owner. I think your interpretation of the stats is faulty. You may find it "impossible" that a dog would not be identified, but studies have shown that breeds are rarely correctly identified and the breeds of mutts are impossible to ascertain. Officials will often label a dog a "pitbull" because it has a blocky head. This makes the term meaningless from a scientific perspective.

The focus on the breed is harmful because it makes people think that as long as they don't get one of the "aggressive" breeds, they will not have problems and that is dangerously untrue.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Luxorien said:


> I agree that a pitbull (or any similarly powerful dog) is probably not the best dog for a first time owner. I think your interpretation of the stats is faulty. You may find it "impossible" that a dog would not be identified, but studies have shown that breeds are rarely correctly identified and the breeds of mutts are impossible to ascertain. Officials will often label a dog a "pitbull" because it has a blocky head. This makes the term meaningless from a scientific perspective.
> 
> The focus on the breed is harmful because it makes people think that as long as they don't get one of the "aggressive" breeds, they will not have problems and that is dangerously untrue.


good point and i do agree that this probably is a valid point. But the only point i was trying to make on this thread is that big dogs with stopping power should be handled carefully and not neglected so therefore this might be something a new owner should be very careful with and not take on. I dont like promoting new owners to buy pits and keep promoting the overbreeding.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Even if one accepted that the commonly cited stats are somewhere approaching accurate (they're not, they're terrible) they're still stupid, because "pit bull" isn't a breed and tells you very little about the dog's lineage. It's like someone saying "retrievers are the most popular dogs" and concluding based upon that that Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are universally known and beloved.

Moreover, the chances of getting killed by a dog are minute in the developed world. The threat from any given bully would be beyond minimal even if every single dog mauling death in North America last year had been done by a bully. Dogs just don't kill people in any appreciable number. Your bathtub is many times more dangerous to you than your dog.

Any new owner should be careful with any new dog, especially any new larger dog. Don't promote hysteria.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

parus said:


> Even if one accepted that the commonly cited stats are somewhere approaching accurate (they're not, they're terrible) they're still stupid, because "pit bull" isn't a breed and tells you very little about the dog's lineage. It's like someone saying "retrievers are the most popular dogs" and concluding based upon that that Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are universally known and beloved.
> 
> Moreover, the chances of getting killed by a dog are minute in the developed world. The threat from any given bully would be beyond minimal even if every single dog mauling death in North America last year had been done by a bully. Dogs just don't kill people in any appreciable number. Your bathtub is many times more dangerous to you than your dog.
> 
> Any new owner should be careful with any new dog, especially any new larger dog. Don't promote hysteria.


I can agree with this. I don't want to start a hysteria but just to aware a new owner to be a good dog parent.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

> Perhaps the most often cited large study was published in 2000 in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association assessing 20 years of DBRF (dog bite related fatalities) in the United States, from 1979 through 1998. During that period, 238 Americans were killed by 403 dogs.


https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4288

So an average of about 20 dogs per year were involved in fatal attacks. That's out of the ~80 million dogs owned in the US.

This is the risk you're stirring up "awareness" about.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

parus said:


> https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4288
> 
> So an average of about 20 dogs per year were involved in fatal attacks. That's out of the ~80 million dogs owned in the US.
> 
> This is the risk you're stirring up "awareness" about.


20 isnt a lot? GL telling that to the parents of those kids, that thats not a lot. also the numbers are closer to around 35-40 per year not 20 (you see how your being bias? a direct search got me 1 source from dogsbite and another by wiki both who shows the recent numbers to be much higher then 20 so even if you didnt want to read dogsbite you could have easily found it on the next link but chose to disregard those numbers and instead find your own that conforms to your specific opinion instead of stating facts). 

wiki also lists specifics of every kill if you care to look at it. we have no direct control over dying by a ping pong machine. but we do have control over our own dogs. Lets not confuse the 2.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Let's say it's 40, despite your crappy source.

40 dogs out of 80 million dogs is 0.00005% of US dogs being involved in a fatality annually. Dramatic proclamations aside, you're a non-owner giving bad advice based on a poor understanding of the risk factors.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

http://legacy.9news.com/story/news/investigations/2014/11/10/dog-breeds-bites-front-range/18811551/

Based on 6,500 reported dog bites between 2012 and 2013, the top five biting breeds* in the Denver area are:

1. Labs
2. German Shepherds
3. Pit Bulls
4. Chihuahuas
5. Bulldogs


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

parus said:


> Let's say it's 40, despite your crappy source.
> 
> 40 dogs out of 80 million dogs is 0.00005% of US dogs being involved in a fatality annually. Dramatic proclamations aside, you're a non-owner giving bad advice based on a poor understanding of the risk factors.


Lol crappy sources from multiple links all giving similar statistics and specifics to every kill? Lol alright lets just agree to disagree


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Mirzam said:


> http://legacy.9news.com/story/news/investigations/2014/11/10/dog-breeds-bites-front-range/18811551/
> 
> Based on 6,500 reported dog bites between 2012 and 2013, the top five biting breeds* in the Denver area are:
> 
> ...


No one is debating how often dogs bite here.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

nirrrr said:


> No one is debating how often dogs bite here.


Then what exactly -are- you debating? Labs and GSD's are both larger than the typical pit, therefore are more dangerous considering they apparently bite more frequently based on the above report. Not to mention that a GSD has a stronger bite in terms of psi than a pit. 

The misinformation you are spreading is what causes dogs to be taken from their families and killed when municipalities decide to ban them. 

Also, labs being the most -registered- dog doesn't make them the highest population. Most pits are byb or oops litters, and therefore not registered with the AKC.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Oh an anti-Pit Bull thread and already I see Dogbites .org being cited as fact. 

So first let me answer the OPs question. APBT or AST can do well in apartments if you are willing to do the work needed to give them an outlet every day for their energy. They can range from "Queen/King of the couch" to "OMG a Border Collie would have had less energy" in energy level so take that into consideration if you look into one. These dogs are also very overbred so please don't just go get one from anyone you just see in the newspaper or Craigslist. Rescues are awesome and you can get awesome older dogs that you know will already to well in an.apartment.

Renting with a Pit Bull type dog is about impossible. You can find find houses to rent with them but apartments are about impossible. 

This breed you get what you put into them. Stick them on a chain as a lawn ornament and you'll get a horrible monster. Take obedience classes and really train your dog and you'll end up with a great dog. Dog aggression is something you need to be aware of. Lots of the breed will have some degree of it but you can have just as many with out any. I have one that is reactive to other dogs while one that is cold as ice, wouldn't even think about biting another dog. Each is different and they can start off as great with other dogs and as they get older decide that dogs suck.

Now for the anti pit bull comments. The CDC even states in their original research that their stats are flawed. Any stats coming from Dogbites .org are coming from a website of Pit Bull haters and are known to lie and skew stats. 

One of the more famous Pit Bull bans is from Ontario Canada, which had proven that even though Pit Bulls have been almost eradicated, dog bites are climbing. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/pit-bull-ban-toronto-dog-bites_us_56c8cd2ce4b0928f5a6c218e

The breed isn't full of "monsters", but there are a few bad apples. I own pits from unknown backgrounds, one is 9 and has the best temperament ever, the other is 5 and a Search and Rescue dog and they aren't the exception to the rule, the dogs that attack are. Most "Pit Bull" attacks are misidentified and sometimes later corrected, but the harm.is already done. One of the recent attacks here was of a Mastiff mix and a Husky/Mastiff mix but was reported as Pit Bulls. That's the media for you.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Darkmoon said:


> The breed isn't full of "monsters", but there are a few bad apples. I own pits from unknown backgrounds, one is 9 and has the best temperament ever, the other is 5 and a Search and Rescue dog and they aren't the exception to the rule, the dogs that attack are. Most "Pit Bull" attacks are misidentified and sometimes later corrected, but the harm.is already done. One of the recent attacks here was of a Mastiff mix and a Husky/Mastiff mix but was reported as Pit Bulls. That's the media for you.


When one of my old neighbors heard I wanted to be a dog trainer, they told me this whole story about how they were viciously attacked and mauled by a "pit bull". After talking to them more, turns out the dog was a pug. A PUG.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Terriermon said:


> ugh yes who gives a crap about "statistics" when it comes to pitbull bites. who cares that Chihuahuas or whatever bites more. The point is pitbulls can do much more serious damage when they do attack. Because they are powerfully built especially their jaws. And they have very high pain tolerance. So being kicked, punched, or even shot may not stop the dog's attack. This has been shown, unfortunately, many times and is the reason pitbull attacks often receive a lot of publicity. That's why people are not being 'ignorant' when they dislike or fear pitbulls. Yes most are sweet as sugar and that's all well and good; the point is, when they do decide to attack, the outcome is usually more more severe than it would have been from other breeds. the attack which triggered the ban here in Ontario; the dog was shot MULTIPLE TIMES including the head by police and still would not release it's bite. They had to drag an old mattress over from a dumpster and suffocate the dog with it. That's why pitbulls can be scary. Few other breeds are so determined to finish an attack once it has started.


Actually, this to is a myth. Pit Bulls are no more powerful than any other breed of dog of their size. They are simply scrappy when they get into a fight, just like any other terrier out there. There are a lot of other breeds out there far more powerful and that can inflict way more damage than the Pit Bull can, but people continuously ignore that fact when making these arguements.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

By the way, stop with the dogsbite.org crap. Just stop already. Its NOT a credible source, its a propaganda site created by a lady with an agenda. She's not an "expert", she's simply deranged.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

RCloud said:


> Actually, this to is a myth. Pit Bulls are no more powerful than any other breed of dog of their size. They are simply scrappy when they get into a fight, just like any other terrier out there. *There are a lot of other breeds out there far more powerful and that can inflict way more damage than the Pit Bull can*, but people continuously ignore that fact when making these arguements.


Right?!? English Mastiffs. Bullmastiffs. Tosa Inus. Fila Brasileiros. Cane Corsos. Great Danes. Caucasian Ovcharkas. Central Asian Ovcharkas. Tibetan Mastiffs. Dogue de Bordeaux. Neapolitan Mastiffs. Presa Canarios. Boerboels. Dogo Argentinos. I can keep going...

Every single one of those dogs is more powerful than a Pitbull-type dog, as a general rule. And I'd far rather be attacked by a 60 lb Pit than a 110-220 lb example of any of the above listed breeds. 

People are ignorant and use non-credible sources to further their own ignorant beliefs rather than educate themselves about the reality of dog bite statistics.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Right?!? English Mastiffs. Bullmastiffs. Tosa Inus. Fila Brasileiros. Cane Corsos. Great Danes. Caucasian Ovcharkas. Central Asian Ovcharkas. Tibetan Mastiffs. Dogue de Bordeaux. Neapolitan Mastiffs. Presa Canarios. Boerboels. Dogo Argentinos. I can keep going...
> 
> Every single one of those dogs is more powerful than a Pitbull-type dog, as a general rule. And I'd far rather be attacked by a 60 lb Pit than a 110-220 lb example of any of the above listed breeds.
> 
> People are ignorant and use non-credible sources to further their own ignorant beliefs rather than educate themselves about the reality of dog bite statistics.


Even the German Shepherd and Rottweiler have a stronger bite force than the Pit Bull. Good Lord, people lol


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> 20 isnt a lot? GL telling that to the parents of those kids, that thats not a lot.


Know how many kids are killed by _their parents_ every year? Around 400. There are approximately about as many minor children as dogs in the US, average of 2 kids per family, 2 parents per kid---which means there are about as many parents raising minor children as there are dogs. Which means that parents are 10 times more dangerous to children than dogs are. Of course it doesn't work exactly like that---one would have to consider the amount of time a child spends with parents vs a dog, etc. but yeah, perspective. About 20 toddlers drown in buckets every year. Just buckets. Around *3000* women are murdered by a male significant other every year. I think I'll take my chances with the pit bulls and Rottweilers .


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Know how many kids are killed by _their parents_ every year? Around 400. There are approximately about as many minor children as dogs in the US, average of 2 kids per family, 2 parents per kid---which means there are about as many parents raising minor children as there are dogs. Which means that parents are 10 times more dangerous to children than dogs are. Of course it doesn't work exactly like that---one would have to consider the amount of time a child spends with parents vs a dog, etc. but yeah, perspective. About 20 toddlers drown in buckets every year. Just buckets. Around *3000* women are murdered by a male significant other every year. I think I'll take my chances with the pit bulls and Rottweilers .


You know what else kills more people than Pitbulls in the US every year? Cows.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hiraeth said:


> You know what else kills more people than Pitbulls in the US every year? Cows.


No kidding. They're big and can be mean. Deer kill a bunch of people too, I think. Although I don't know if vehicle collisions are included.

1 in 7.5 million---that's your chance of getting killed by a dog in the US (if you go by the higher number of 40 people a year). Of course, every death is a tragedy and every individual incident is preventable. But as far as total risk in a population goes, I don't see how the number could get any lower.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm still scrolling. . .
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...that-are-most-likely-to-kill-you-this-summer/


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah, I'm bored so I'll "bite" (pun intended)



nirrrr said:


> i was going to write a long post refuting every point you made but at this point its obvious that you will just use confirmation bias to try to refute the countless different sites and threads and resources that states that pitbull is #1. You obviously dont understand how statistics work. like i said even if 80% of the dogs identified as pitbulls werent actually of pitbulls and instead of the umbrella classification of a pitbull then they would still would be #1. but honestly at this point i dont think you will agree regardless.
> 
> *Amazing how I won't agree to something incorrect..... *
> 
> ...


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

The chanced of getting hit by lightning is 1 in 700,000 in any given year and 1 in 3,000 for a life time. I'm still safer with my dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Darkmoon said:


> The chanced of getting hit by lightning is 1 in 700,000 in any given year and 1 in 3,000 for a life time. I'm still safer with my dogs.


But if you get struck by lightening because your pit bull demanded a potty break during a storm, is the pit bull at fault?


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I wouldn't know. Mine melt if they get wet so they wouldn't dare go out in the rain. They are made of sugar you know!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Darkmoon said:


> I wouldn't know. Mine melt if they get wet so they wouldn't dare go out in the rain. They are made of sugar you know!


Eva has this ability to pivot in mid-air and return to the house if she starts to exit the door and then realizes its raining. She'll jump in a river or lake, but rain is evil. Snow, snow is scary too. Did you know the world ends when snow falls and whites out the roads and yards? 1 inch of snow is like Game of Thrones level WINTER IS COMING worry around here.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

ireth0 said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > No one is debating how often dogs bite here.
> ...


Bites isn't what's dangerous. The stopping power is. Latching on is what ends up killing not the bite itself.

But since you bought up psi and dogs, top 4 everywhere I read says mastiff,gsd,pit and rott.

Where do you get your labr stat from being higher psi? I agree with your last point though and they are definitely being overbred which what I want stopped and the only way to do that is to prevent new inexperienced people from buying them. Aren't u against killing dogs in shelters cause of overbreeding and bad humans giving up on them or not training them right?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

nirrrr said:


> Bites isn't what's dangerous. The stopping power is. Latching on is what ends up killing not the bite itself.


.... Where do you even get this stuff?


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > Bites isn't what's dangerous. The stopping power is. Latching on is what ends up killing not the bite itself.
> ...


Usually first few links when I google it. Sites such as dogs bite that people here obviously hate so you can disregard that but other sites also support it. The latching on /psi/ aggression to keep attacking once the dog starts is what kills. Most dogs might attack but stop after. Some keeps attacking but psi of bite too low to kill so you need a combo of all 3. 

Seriously guys why am I the only one (besides a few) who actually wants to stop the killing of these poor dogs with shitty humans who gives them up or overbreeding? I expect dog people to care about this kinda stuff more then someone like me who is only starting .


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

nirrrr said:


> *Usually first few links when I google it.* Sites such as dogs bite that people here obviously hate so you can disregard that but other sites also support it. The latching on /psi/ aggression to keep attacking once the dog starts is what kills. Most dogs might attack but stop after. Some keeps attacking but psi of bite too low to kill so you need a combo of all 3.
> 
> Seriously guys why am I the only one (besides a few) who actually wants to stop the killing of these poor dogs with shitty humans who gives them up or overbreeding? I expect dog people to care about this kinda stuff more then someone like me who is only starting .


Bolded - That explains so much. Scientific opinion based on the first few sites that come up on Google. So, wikipedia and dogsbite . org are your informational sources?

Seriously, why are you here, a non-dog owner, fighting with a bunch of experienced and educated dog owners and presenting biased and inaccurate information based on a Google search as fact? I did more thorough and accurate research for my 8th grade final history report. And all of us, with our combined tens of thousands of hours of dog experience, should just bow down to your Googling skills? 

Stop spreading hysteria and inaccurate bias. You, and people like you, are a large contributing factor to why many of these dogs are being killed every year.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)




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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > *Usually first few links when I google it.* Sites such as dogs bite that people here obviously hate so you can disregard that but other sites also support it. The latching on /psi/ aggression to keep attacking once the dog starts is what kills. Most dogs might attack but stop after. Some keeps attacking but psi of bite too low to kill so you need a combo of all 3.
> ...


I am not fighting with feelings Nor am I telling anyone how to raise their dog . I am the only one here who seems to care about pit bulls that's for sure. You don't have to be a dog owner to know facts. I understand you guys are emotionally attached to this subject but the only way to stop overbreeding and giving up on dogs to shelters is to stop buying them right? 

Just answer this question for me: how do you stop overbreeding and prevent dogs being given up to rescues to be killed? Obviously hoping and praying that byb and other breeders/mills stops isn't working .

Your trying to save a few of their lives by adopting from rescue correct? While I am trying to save way way more by preventing new people from buying them. Gotta look at the big picture.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Shell said:


>


This is clearly inaccurate because it doesn't mention vending machine accidents.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

nirrrr said:


> I am not fighting with feelings Nor am I telling anyone how to raise their dog . *I am the only one here who seems to care about pit bulls that's for sure.* You don't have to be a dog owner to know facts. I understand you guys are emotionally attached to this subject but the only way to stop overbreeding and giving up on dogs to shelters is to stop buying them right?
> 
> Just answer this question for me: how do you stop overbreeding and prevent dogs being given up to rescues to be killed? Obviously hoping and praying that byb and other breeders/mills stops isn't working .


Yes, clearly. 

Stating that they kill more people than any other breed of dog, that they're dangerous, that they have more PSI than any other dog, that they latch on and don't let go.... That's all because you CARE about them.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Shell said:


>


Those are all accidents. Dog killing is a bit more then an accident don't you think? Again sure statistically numbers aren't much since its "only" 30-40 per year but trying looking at the husbands, parents face when you tell them that..


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > I am not fighting with feelings Nor am I telling anyone how to raise their dog . *I am the only one here who seems to care about pit bulls that's for sure.* You don't have to be a dog owner to know facts. I understand you guys are emotionally attached to this subject but the only way to stop overbreeding and giving up on dogs to shelters is to stop buying them right?
> ...


You haven't answered my question. Will wait for your answer. You keep missing the bigger picture . Also I never blamed anything on pit bulls. I blamed the shitty owners who gives up on their kids and raises them wrong or neglects them.

Again stop getting your feelings attached to this . This isn't about the dog but more so about inexperienced humans who results them into going to shelters to die or results them into overbreeding. Every dog who killed someone was because over neglectful humans.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

nirrrr said:


> I am not fighting with feelings Nor am I telling anyone how to raise their dog . *I am the only one here who seems to care about pit bulls that's for sure.* You don't have to be a dog owner to know facts. I understand you guys are emotionally attached to this subject but the only way to stop overbreeding and giving up on dogs to shelters is to stop buying them right?
> 
> Just answer this question for me: how do you stop overbreeding and prevent dogs being given up to rescues to be killed? Obviously hoping and praying that byb and other breeders/mills stops isn't working .
> 
> Your trying to save a few of their lives by adopting from rescue correct? While I am trying to save way way more by preventing new people from buying them. Gotta look at the big picture.


HA HA HA HA HA HA.... and HA

(also, giant LOL at your concept of "fact")

How many spay and neuter programs are you involved with? How many pit bulls have you fostered? How many pit bulls have you transported to rescue or foster? How many public education programs have you worked on to prevent or overturn breed bans? 
How often have you gone through the background of a media story or report which mentions a pit bull to find the details, including checking multiple news sites on the same incident and looking for retractions or edits later?

BTW, when someone says this:








They don't mean doing this:


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

I guarantee that any new owner who reads this thread and does buy them will surely be 100% better parents to their pits and they will be raised right. 

You welcome!!!


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

nirrrr said:


> Hiraeth said:
> 
> 
> > nirrrr said:
> ...


I don't think we disagree substantially on the issues of overcrowding in shelters or the importance of responsible ownership. My only quibble is with some of the details about how pits are described. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so I feel it's important to use all the evidence at our disposal to come to reasoned conclusions about these issues.

I do think you're right that people should not just assume that a pit will be all cuddly wuddly. I just think that caveat applies to all powerful breeds.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

you do know wiki from today actually double checks the facts. It's not how it used to be. also dogsbite is hated here but they do support their facts. Let's face it you guys are a bit to emotionally attached to see things clearly. Ignorance will prevent you guys from stopping to solve the big picture problem.

No one still answered my question on how to stop overbreeding. And that's because you guys don't want to face the truth. Only someone with no attachment will be able to see it. Perhaps in a few years I might become like you guys and not see clearly.

I will answer it for you. The only way to stop overbreeding is to stop buying .


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

nirrrr said:


> I guarantee that any new owner who reads this thread and does buy them will surely be 100% better parents to their pits and they will be raised right.
> 
> You welcome!!!


Look. Irresponsible people are not going to stop breeding or buying dogs. Of any breed. We can all hope for it, we can all try to educate people (about real things, not Google hysteria). But in the end, idiots are gonna idiot. It does not matter what breed an idiot has. If a dog owner is an idiot the chances are high that it's not going to end well for anyone. And spreading lies about certain dog breeds isn't going to help anyone. 

Airedales are large terriers too. They have a high rate of dog aggression and are pretty high on the human bite list too (proportionate to population). They fight/attack like terriers---tenacious and stubborn. But they aren't popular with irresponsible idiots. So when was the last time you heard about an Airedale attack?

Hoping a breed stops existing is not really a way to help that breed :/.

Also, if someone mentions getting a pit bull, they may not be supporting a breeder. They may be rescuing one from a shelter (as you point out, there's no shortage). Or supporting a good responsible breeder who wouldn't let their dogs end up with irresponsible idiots. So discouraging someone from getting a breed is not necessarily going to put a dent in the irresponsible breeder problem.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

nirrrr said:


> I will answer it for you. The only way to stop overbreeding is to stop buying .


This is not so much true. Because those "bad people" you talked about aren't going to stop buying or breeding these dogs so all you're encouraging is for good pet parents not to get a pit bull. Not to mention the fact that I'm not even sure what "pit bull" you're talking about. Are you saying people shouldn't buy an APBT? A staffy? Rescue any of the bully breed mixes? What about bully breed sport mixes? What about any of these breeds that are bred from a reputable breeder?


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Luxorien said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > Hiraeth said:
> ...



See this is the type of response that is imo helpful. I truly understand some of the things I say might not be accurate(since my info is from online and I am sure not everything I read online is true). So I apologize on that but atleast you understand the point. As long as 1 parent raises their dog well and doesn't give up on them then I feel like I accomplished something.

The whole debate started because I told the op to be careful and to do research and be ready on how to train and socialize if he does want to get a pit. So many people get them because they are "cool" dogs to have instead of actually getting them for their family friendly temperament and those people ends up being irresponsible. That was the whole point.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

nirrrr said:


> The whole debate started because I told the op to be careful and to do research and be ready on how to train and socialize if he does want to get a pit. So many people get them because they are "cool" dogs to have instead of actually getting them for their family friendly temperament and those people ends up being irresponsible. That was the whole point.


The whole debate started because you said not to get a pit because they were dangerous dogs that maul people more than any other breed. The bit where you said "...along with them being #1 dogs that kills most humans." That's why this started.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Willowy said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > I guarantee that any new owner who reads this thread and does buy them will surely be 100% better parents to their pits and they will be raised right.
> ...


To tell you the truth I never even heard of them and they probably get labeled as a "pit" like others said lol. That's what people don't seem to understand that more or less we all agree that all dogs are awesome. I agree with everything you said. 

But atleast from the bird world the only way to stop overbreeding (cockatoos come to mind) is stopping the overbuying. If you prevent that then the people who do buy usually will be responsible owners. If people aren't buying them as much then the breeders have no choice but to stop overbreeding since for them it's all about money.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Effisia said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > I will answer it for you. The only way to stop overbreeding is to stop buying .
> ...


Rescues definitely . Everyone should rescue big dogs. Just trying to prevent people from buying without understanding what it takes to raise a big dog. The whole thing started because I told the op to do his research and due deligence if he wanted to get him and that for a 1st dog it might not be a good idea.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Effisia said:


> nirrrr said:
> 
> 
> > The whole debate started because I told the op to be careful and to do research and be ready on how to train and socialize if he does want to get a pit. So many people get them because they are "cool" dogs to have instead of actually getting them for their family friendly temperament and those people ends up being irresponsible. That was the whole point.
> ...


Fine that's fair but i specifically stated that it was never the dogs fault but the owners. And sure I stated them being #1 only from what I heard and read which might or might not be accurate so my apologies for that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> But atleast from the bird world the only way to stop overbreeding (cockatoos come to mind) is stopping the overbuying. If you prevent that then the people who do buy usually will be responsible owners. If people aren't buying them as much then the breeders have no choice but to stop overbreeding since for them it's all about money.


Encouraging people to choose a pet that's right for their lifestyle (and, definitely, cockatoos are not the right choice for the vast majority of people) is not the same as discouraging someone from getting a pet because of "them being #1 dog that kills most humans". 

Plus, dog overpopulation is very different from bird overpopulation, because most people who breed birds did it on purpose. Birds don't have accidental litters (and if they laid unwanted eggs, just destroy the eggs before they develop. Simple!). So if you don't support the overbreeders, they don't produce. But there are some rather difficult socioeconomic issues related to unwanted puppies, it's not as easy to fix as you might think it is.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

nirrrr said:


> Rescues definitely . Everyone should rescue big dogs. Just trying to prevent people from buying without understanding what it takes to raise a big dog. The whole thing started because I told the op to do his research and due deligence if he wanted to get him and that for a 1st dog it might not be a good idea.


Except that, if people don't support the good breeders who are doing health testing and showing due diligence in making healthy dogs, the only ones left will be unhealthy dogs. Which isn't great for the future and all . And there is no overpopulation of many breeds so you'd wait a very long time to find one in rescue.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Willowy said:


> > But atleast from the bird world the only way to stop overbreeding (cockatoos come to mind) is stopping the overbuying. If you prevent that then the people who do buy usually will be responsible owners. If people aren't buying them as much then the breeders have no choice but to stop overbreeding since for them it's all about money.
> 
> 
> Encouraging people to choose a pet that's right for their lifestyle (and, definitely, cockatoos are not the right choice for the vast majority of people) is not the same as discouraging someone from getting a pet because of "them being #1 dog that kills most humans".
> ...


Ya your probably right and I am sure it's different and not easy to fix but that's one of the reasons I am here which is to learn. So far through the debate I have learned a lot. 

But did u just say destroy the eggs!!!! Imma explode. Lol


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Sorry, I don't see a problem with destroying fresh eggs. It's just like doing a spay the day after conception . I know people with finch colonies who would be overrun otherwise. Once the egg has developed it's a lot iffier.


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Willowy said:


> Sorry, I don't see a problem with destroying fresh eggs. It's just like doing a spay the day after conception . I know people with finch colonies who would be overrun otherwise. Once the egg has developed it's a lot iffier.


i am just kidding. i dont really have a feeling towards it accept i keep envisioning the bird coming back to see her baby eggs destroyed.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

nirrrr said:


> Rescues definitely . Everyone should rescue big dogs. Just trying to prevent people from buying without understanding what it takes to raise a big dog. The whole thing started because I told the op to do his research and due deligence if he wanted to get him and that for a 1st dog it might not be a good idea.


Soooooo not to be a stickler, but what does the rescue vs breeder debate have to do with understanding what it takes to raise a big dog?


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## nirrrr (Apr 9, 2016)

Effisia said:


> Soooooo not to be a stickler, but what does the rescue vs breeder debate have to do with understanding what it takes to raise a big dog?


not much i guess.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Hmm,

One good thing out of this thread is that the OP has gotten a chance to see a bit of the stuff that owners of pit type dogs will encounter on the regular. To be prepared for confrontations on the street with misguided humans; to recognize that one's dog is a breed ambassador of sorts because people will make snap judgments based on a single encounter with a pit type dog or one they think is a pit type dog; to know that every rental apartment and house in the future will likely mean fighting against such views of pit type dogs; to deal with the fact that your dog will be blamed for any incident between it and another dog or human no matter the circumstances.

All because there are people out there who are unable to dig deep into the media bias, the lack of reliable breed identification, holding dogs of a certain phenotype to higher standards in shelters etc, and who are willing to condemn a whole type of dogs on a very nebulous basis of information.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Wasn't there an article circulating recently about how completely wrong shelter breed guesses based on phenotype can be?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Shell said:


> Hmm,
> 
> One good thing out of this thread is that the OP has gotten a chance to see a bit of the stuff that owners of pit type dogs will encounter on the regular. To be prepared for confrontations on the street with misguided humans; to recognize that one's dog is a breed ambassador of sorts because people will make snap judgments based on a single encounter with a pit type dog or one they think is a pit type dog; to know that every rental apartment and house in the future will likely mean fighting against such views of pit type dogs; to deal with the fact that your dog will be blamed for any incident between it and another dog or human no matter the circumstances.
> 
> All because there are people out there who are unable to dig deep into the media bias, the lack of reliable breed identification, holding dogs of a certain phenotype to higher standards in shelters etc, and who are willing to condemn a whole type of dogs on a very nebulous basis of information.


Indeed. *too short*


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