# Pros/cons for neutering?



## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Just as the title says, I'm wondering what the pros and cons are going to be for neutering a dog. How much, and in what way does it change personality, energy levels, etc etc. Just trying to decide if it's something I want to do with Odin or not.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Neutering your dog will not change his personality or energy levels. Your dog will only be missing his man bits.. Nothing changes. All of my dogs are spayed or neutered. 

My Shih Tzu was neutered after I had had him for about 3-4 weeks and nothing has changed.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If it's done before puberty you won't notice any changes. If you have it done later in life you may notice some changes, almost all of them positive. 

If a dog is hyperactive, neutering may slow him down a bit. If he's of a normal activity level, you probably won't notice any change. 

It will decrease his caloric needs---testosterone uses a lot of calories. If you continue feeding him the same amount, he will gain weight. I consider this to be a good thing in my case.....Rottweilers eat a lot. I cut Moose's daily rations back from 6 cups to 4 1/2 cups after he was neutered. This saves a lot of money. 

Intact dogs usually have a desire to wander, looking for bitches in heat. My grandpa's dog did this even when he was 12 years old and arthritic; he nearly didn't make it home again. He only got back because somebody found him lying in their yard (2 miles away from home!) exhausted from his travels, read his tags, and brought him home. I doubt he could have made it by himself. A neutered dog will not see the need to wander for romantic reasons, though some dogs just like to explore or follow their noses. They usually come back sooner if they do run away, though. 

Obviously, your dog will not be able to father unwanted puppies if he's neutered. Don't discount this; it's not likely you can get through his entire life without him getting away from you at least once. The world does not need more unwanted, random-bred puppies. 

A neutered dog is less likely to be crazy about marking....you know, the kind of dog that drags you to every tree on the block so he can mark it. He might still mark but he won't be as driven.

Obviously, a dog cannot get testicular cancer if he's neutered. The studies on prostate enlargement or cancer do not seem to be very definitive, but there may be some benefit in that regard, too.

A dog neutered young may seem to some people to be a bit "girly". They might not learn to lift their legs and will squat to pee. I prefer to have it done after they're 18 months old. This will set the masculine behaviors more firmly. Having it done after that age will also help with a large dog's bone development, and is preferable if you plan to pursue doggie sports. This of course only applies if you're capable of keeping him from impregnating a female before then.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Pros eliminate the potential for testicular cancer
Cons, can easily father many pups that May or may not end up in shelters, either way taking away from a dog who needs a home and is alive.

After neutereing my gang of cats dogs and rabbit, as well as spaying nothing has changed, they are still the same as they were, Meiko my aggressive boy has slightly calmed down, but I think that has far more to do with age than the loss of the "furry plums"
Altered dogs do not get fat either, that depends on how much you carry on with their excercise and diet. No one here has gained any obsene weight so thats another myth on neutering

I'd say its the best choice, but I am partial to spay/neutering to begin with.
Just be sure to consider age if you do neuter (which I really hope you do) I personally dont like to do it when they are young, 8 months is my ideal time for a medium sized breed, but each of us varies on that perspective.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

what reasons would you have to not neuter your dog?


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

unless you have a champion quality dog and are showing it and are a knowledgeable breeder, there's no reason NOT to neuter your dog.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

there are plenty of reasons to NOT neuter a dog...... the health benefits are overstated, its true that a dog cant get testicular cancer.... and of course there are the benefits of not having to deal with the wandering which is a big problem and the responsibility of a unwanted litter. However, the most aggressive form of prostate cancer is in intact dogs. I would also point to studies regarding osteosarcoma and other benefits ....... 

that having been said..... I do require that all my puppies are neutered but I do not recommend doing it prior to sexual maturity at age 2. 

but that is just my two sense. I have three intact males in this house who all get along. I have one neutered male due to seizures, I was hoping the seizures would decrease with the decrease in stress when the girls come into season. I have two intact bitches here as well but that did not seem to be the case, he still seizes when the girls come in. 

it is best to do your homework and make an educated decision regarding what you want to do .
s


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

decrease in stress when the girls come into season

Another great reason to neuter a male dog. Also the CDC says that like 85% of all unprovoked dog bites are by unaltered males. Food for thought.


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## 007Dogs (Aug 22, 2007)

From a breeders stand point, I say any dog that is not being shown or slated for a breeding program should be neutered. If I have a male dog that I know longer will be using in my breeding program, I can not get them neutered fast enough. It is just soooooo much easier to live with altered dogs. 

As for the reasons to wait, still not sold on that one either. I still think the benefits out weigh the cons. If someone was to place a pup and have the new owner wait until two years of age. No telling how many pups a dog could potentially sire before the neutering occurs. The reasons most spays and neuters occur earlier rather than later, is that most people plan to be responsible owners, but how many times have we come to this site only to read about another so called responsible owner with yet another OOPS litter on the way. So for me the reasons to alter far out weigh the reasons not to alter.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks for all the great information guys. I was assuming that there weren't really any drawbacks to it, but I've been doing my homework on every subject I possibly could, and this is one that still eluded me. 

So the consensus is that the earliest to get it done would be about 8 months, and unless I have breeding plans (which I don't) there isn't really a drawback. He won't have any issues with gaining weight, as I already plan for him to be my running/biking/hiking partner (I'm a triathlete and very much an outdoorsman), so exercise will be MORE than adequate. 

Again, thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it!


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

trumpetjock said:


> So the consensus is that the earliest to get it done would be about 8 months, and unless I have breeding plans (which I don't) there isn't really a drawback. He won't have any issues with gaining weight.


That is correct. I don't think I'll ever own another dog that is intacted. Keep us posted about your dog.  And welcome to the forum.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

we got ours done at 4 months, i beleive? it was actually better for us to do it this way because he had fear aggression issues, and hormones would have made matters way worse. his testicles dropped rather early for a pup but we took him in at the youngest age the vet would do his neutering. 

there's really no reason to wait until they're older as far as i'm concerned. in fact i would recommend getting it done the earlier the better, that way you avoid issues with marking, humping, territorial aggression, and all those other fun things that come with having a "teenage" dog with lots of hormones but not enough brains/training to control them (because they're so young).


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Annamarie said:


> we got ours done at 4 months, i beleive? it was actually better for us to do it this way because he had fear aggression issues, and hormones would have made matters way worse. his testicles dropped rather early for a pup but we took him in at the youngest age the vet would do his neutering.
> 
> there's really no reason to wait until they're older as far as i'm concerned. in fact i would recommend getting it done the earlier the better, that way you avoid issues with marking, humping, territorial aggression, and all those other fun things that come with having a "teenage" dog with lots of hormones but not enough brains/training to control them (because they're so young).


Neutering too early can effect them in many ways such as stunting their growth, not in all cases, but it can. When a pup is neutered too early their body doesn't produce enough hormones and can sometimes make them stop growing at an ealrier age than they would if you wait until an older age. Also giving them more time lets their organs grow to full size, neutering early can also effect all of the different organs growth.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> Neutering too early can effect them in many ways such as stunting their growth, not in all cases, but it can. When a pup is neutered too early their body doesn't produce enough hormones and can sometimes make them stop growing at an ealrier age than they would if you wait until an older age. Also giving them more time lets their organs grow to full size, neutering early can also effect all of the different organs growth.


This is especially true of the extra-large/giant breeds, their bones and joints can really get out of whack if they're neutered too young. It isn't as much of a problem for females, but males can have some trouble. I don't think it's so much an issue with the smaller breeds.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Willowy said:


> This is especially true of the extra-large/giant breeds, their bones and joints can really get out of whack if they're neutered too young. It isn't as much of a problem for females, but males can have some trouble. I don't think it's so much an issue with the smaller breeds.


With the larger breeds the bones, joints and also the organs can be effected. With smaller breeds it's more just the organs. They are already small, but if not fully developed it can cause problems down the road. 

If I got to pick I'd neuter after 8 months.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> Neutering too early can effect them in many ways such as stunting their growth, not in all cases, but it can. When a pup is neutered too early their body doesn't produce enough hormones and can sometimes make them stop growing at an ealrier age than they would if you wait until an older age. Also giving them more time lets their organs grow to full size, neutering early can also effect all of the different organs growth.


not trying to start a fight, but i have yet to see a scientific study to back this claim up. i've heard of smiliar studies done in horses re: gelding early or after 5 years old, and the results were that it does NOT stunt their growth.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> With the larger breeds the bones, joints and also the organs can be effected. With smaller breeds it's more just the organs. They are already small, but if not fully developed it can cause problems down the road.
> 
> If I got to pick I'd neuter after 8 months.


Well, Odin is a Norwegian Elkhound, so he's pretty much right in the middle of middle sized dogs. I plan to take the info I've gathered here and back that up with the info I get from whichever vet I decide on and make a decision from there. From the reading I've done here, and other research it seems I'll probably end up getting him neutered between 8 months and a year. 

Again, I really appreciate all the opinions from all the experienced owners, and I'll definitely keep you all posted on Odin's progress!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Annamarie said:


> not trying to start a fight, but i have yet to see a scientific study to back this claim up. i've heard of smiliar studies done in horses re: gelding early or after 5 years old, and the results were that it does NOT stunt their growth.


dogs are not horses and I would be happy to send you the citations i have regarding early spay and neuters and the increases in joint problems, various cancers, kidney and bladder stones etc. 

the problem in dogs is that neutering and spaying early does NOT stunt their growth, rather they were long and leggy and disproportionate and more likely to joint injuries and orthopaedic problems. 
s


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I agree with Shalva...gelded horses and neutered dogs are two very different things. If you geld a horse young (before 18 months or so) they tend to keep a "girly" voice instead of the deep stud voice, and tend to be more compact and rounded than a stud - no matter when they are gelded. 
As for dogs, I can see how the lack of testosterone would cause some kind of growth problems. Spaying as well, since they no longer produce any estrogen, wouldn't that cause bone problems, like a human female going through menopause is much more likely to develop osteoporosis than one that is not. I wonder if it's the same with a female dog or a male dog...that it could cause bone deficiencies or a lack of bone density...


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

Awhile back someone (I think Boxmein?) posted a link to a article/study that was really informative and had some bearing in why I decided to wait to get Eddie neutered. My vet prefers to wait anyway and won't neuter or spay until the dog is at least 9 months old.

Anyway, I found a link to it:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Here are the highlights that I found the most interesting:

"On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• *if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.*
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations"

There is a high level of responsibility in having a dog that isn't altered. I chose to wait because I felt it was in the best interest of my dog. However, I take very seriously the responsibility of having an intact dog and realize that it's up to me to make sure that he doesn't roam and have a chance to impregnate a female. I wanted to get Eddie neutered this month but wasn't able to get him in so now I have to wait until after January 13th.  I really can't wait until I can get it done but I don't regret waiting because I believe that I made the best decision for him. It will be the same with Uallis. He won't be neutered until he's 12 months old.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

The NAIA is hardly a credible source for individual dog care. Like many other ego centric organizations, they have ulterior motives that should be questioned. Because for every claim that states you should wait, there are claims that will contradict such statements. We should understand our sources before relying on them. Just a general disclaimer.

That being said, I always recommend dog owners to spay/neuter their dog ASAP with the recommendations of their vet. To argue a vet's recommendation over the internet is questionable IMO, as none of us know the dog as well as your vet should. 

Now to those who will argue that vets don't know much, that's a different argument that can be remedied by finding the right vet for you and your dog.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> The NAIA is hardly a credible source for individual dog care. Like many other ego centric organizations, they have ulterior motives that should be questioned. Because for every claim that states you should wait, there are claims that will contradict such statements. We should understand our sources before relying on them. Just a general disclaimer.
> 
> That being said, I always recommend dog owners to spay/neuter their dog ASAP with the recommendations of their vet. To argue a vet's recommendation over the internet is questionable IMO, as none of us know the dog as well as your vet should.
> 
> Now to those who will argue that vets don't know much, that's a different argument that can be remedied by finding the right vet for you and your dog.


just for the record curbside, I have pulled most of the citations from the studies discussed in that site and while there are pros and cons to most things I would happily share my citations with anyone. I do not have the actual articles scanned but being a researcher and teaching at a university did allow me access to the actual journal articles which do support the claims made on that site. 

s


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

That's all well and good Shalva...I'm glad I'm not the only one who's not foreign to research. However, my conclusions may be different than yours...and there's a reason for that. Just follow the dollar trail, and that goes for any claim. At the very least more study is required before relying on sources that contradict those of your well selected vet's. It really may just be a question of choosing the wrong vet than deciding when is the right time to spay/neuter. I think it's prudent to take claims with caution, even those you support.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have talked to over a dozen vets in my area that say 4-6 months is fine. Some will go as early as 8 weeks. I don't like that idea though. One of my rescues was neutered at 4 months He is huge but is a little leggy. Hard to say if it has anything to do with neutering as he is really crappy bred. I suspect that has more to do with it.


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## 007Dogs (Aug 22, 2007)

I have read most of those studies as well. And for a handful of people waiting might work. But most pro issues are related to rescue dogs, and the average pet owner. And again I will say in those situations, the Pros far out weight the cons for waiting. Too many times, these things get put off and then there is the Oppps litters. Studies also show that the highest percentage of dogs killed by cars are intact male dogs. How many times do we read about Fido getting out of the yard accidently. So if I had to choose between a leggy dog, or getting hit by a car or accidently producing an unwanted litter. I will go for the leggy dog everytime.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

007Dogs said:


> I have read most of those studies as well. And for a handful of people waiting might work. But most pro issues are related to rescue dogs, and the average pet owner. And again I will say in those situations, the Pros far out weight the cons for waiting. Too many times, these things get put off and then there is the Oppps litters. Studies also show that the highest percentage of dogs killed by cars are intact male dogs. How many times do we read about Fido getting out of the yard accidently. So if I had to choose between a leggy dog, or getting hit by a car or accidently producing an unwanted litter. I will go for the leggy dog everytime.


I agree except for that you have smaller dogs so legginess is not a big issues.... however, in larger breeds this legginess can lead to orthopedic injuries and hip issues. I really do screen families intensely and make sure that I believe that they can handle an intact pup before I send them a puppy that I insist they keep intact for a while. its a risk it always is


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

Personally, I'm still not buying it. I fail to see how a lack of testosterone would cause any kind of health defects. If that were true, all female dogs would have a significantly higher rate of health problems than males, and that isn't the case.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Annamarie said:


> Personally, I'm still not buying it. I fail to see how a lack of testosterone would cause any kind of health defects. If that were true, all female dogs would have a significantly higher rate of health problems than males, and that isn't the case.


who said it has to do with the testosterone alone.... you don't have to "buy" anything just read the data not just the opinions on a website but the actual reasearch for which I have the citations and form your own opinion..... 

I dont' think that there is any question that you castrate or do a hysterectomy on an adolescent human and nobody would expect them to develop normally.....I mean look at what happens wiht fully grown adults when they are missing a hormone..... I dont think that we can underestimate the necessity of any hormones, and as we are not endocrinologists I think we have to rely on the experts to tell us exactly what they do..... when you spay and neuter early you are removing an entire system from the dog one that is utilized not only for reproduction but for growth and developement...... 

I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to just look at a neutered dog vs. an intact dog and see the difference that those hormones make in width and breadth of dog..... size of body, muscle mass..... etc..... coat condition...... I see it in my own dogs.... the two who are spayed/neutered gain weight more easily, have fluffier coat..... have lost muscle mass..... and that is what I can visibly see on the outside.... who knows what is going on inside..... My girl Meghan was spayed at six.... Cuinn at almost five...... both were mature at spay/neuter and it was done for medical reasons..... but they both look significantly different than they did when they were intact..... an obvious visible difference..... 

the research that exists on early spaying and neutering shows significant increases in an assortment of cancers, osteosarcomas, hemangiosarcomas, endocrine disorders, incontinence, trouble with kidney and bladder stones due to infantile genitalia...... etc..... not to mention that there has been some research not fully developed showing a connection between canine dementia and neutering as well as the most aggressive form of prostate cancer is in neutered dogs not to mention what we already discussed regarding the late closure of the growth plates which is what causes the legginess and thus the higher incidence of orthopedic injuries. 

I personally did not say it had anything to do with testosterone..... but rather the results are troubling at best.... sometimes what we do that makes it convenient for us is not necessarily what is best for the dog. 

saying "I don't buy it" without reading the research is ignorance at best whether you end up agreeing or not. 

once you educate yourself and if you still don't agree then that is one thing.... but to remain ignorant and wedded to an ideal is silly in my opinion
regardless of what you end up believing..... the research is out there and I am happy to share the citations that I have. 
s


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

I did read the information, that's why I'm not buying it.

First of all, the article is not written by a vet. It is written by a woman who's a politician in Maine. Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's credible or true.

Yes she did some research and does cite SOME credible resources, however she has cited some that when I looked them up, were not scientifically sound studies. For instance the study regarding bone cancer only studied rotties, not other breeds, and was completed by questionnaire sent to owners. Most were sent out by a rottie magazine. One could argue that the type of dog owner that subscribes to a rottie magazine is probably not your average rottie owner and there may be other factors that influenced the results. My theory? The dogs that were kept intact up to 1 year of age were probably prospective show dogs with champion breeding and exceptional conformation and were kept intact up to 1 year to see if they developed as the breeder hoped. The dogs that were spayed or neutered were probably those that were undersized or didn't show promise or championship traits, or those that were not bred with champion bloodlines. The difference between breeding a dog for show or for pet. Therefore the dogs that were altered at a younger age were probably skeletally inferior to begin with which would explain why they had a higher rate of bone cancer.

In your example of neutered vs unneutered males, yes of course a neutered male will be more muscular, have a shinier coat, etc. That's what testosterone does. It makes the dog more sexually appealing. It doesn't necessarily mean the dog is healthier though. In your example of men who are castrated and women who have hysterectomies: men who are castrated will have less muscle mass, a higher more female sounding voice, lower sex drive, and less body hair. This does not mean they're any less or more healthy than a regular man though. Although they do have a lower rate of prostate and testicular cancer. In women, some studies have shown a slightly lower sex drive and other studies have shown no change in sex drive. The woman is no less or more healthy, although again the risk of cancer related to ovaries, cervix, etc is eliminated.

Removing the sexual organs only affects the body's ability to reproduce. But it does not affect the body's ability to survive. 

Just because someone doesn't agree with a "study" you've posted or disagrees with your opinion doesn't make them ignorant. I have also done my research and for every study you post saying that spaying and neutering is bad, I can post just as many saying it's good.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I dont care about that one article...... who cares about it..... have you pulled the research yourself????? the actual articles she is writing about????
if you haven't done that then you can't judge whether you agree or not about anything based on one article quoting the data. What I find interesting is how little you know about the importance of hormones for other things than reproduction..... 
even my own vet has stopped spaying and neutering prior to 9 mos. of age due to health issues. 

I think you should do your homework about the impact of hormones on an organism.... 

s


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