# Dog thinks the nose strap of the gentle leader is going to kill her...



## Alethea (Apr 26, 2010)

Hi everyone, I'm reluctantly 'taking over' as owner for my brother's pitbull, as he has 'quit' her because she is not magically perfect. She is going on three, and has not been properly trained or socialized. I say reluctantly, because she's an unsocialized pitbull, and I would never have chosen that combo, but its basically me or the pound for her at this point. So, I'm gonna try to make it work. 

I see tons of good advise here to try, but I haven't seen anything on issues with gentle leaders. First off, I have the instructions, and read them thoroughly, and I believe I had it properly adjusted and fitted correctly. She sat quietly for the entire process of fitting and adjusting, while my hands were busy. When I dropped my hands, she curled her nose under herself and attempted to snuff off the nosepiece, which she couldn't as it was on properly. She didn't want it on, but wasn't overly upset. The instructions said this is normal, and to immediately ask her to walk, so I did so. She kept stopping to try to get it off, and I kept asking her to walk with me, without any pressure on the lead, at any point. It was just 'there'. We made it twenty feet before she curled her face under and went at that nosepiece with everything she had, within seconds she was bloody, she was working so hard at it with her claws. 

I was horrified, so I immediately snapped the collar buckle and removed the entire thing. She ran off ten feet, peed, and looked pretty much like nothing was amiss, and nothing had happened, though when I started toward her, she started to 'leave'. But she sat when I asked her to, and stayed politely while I put it back on her, as a collar only. I remained calm the whole time, through sheer force of will. We then went for a walk, which was nicer than any before it, something I attributed to the gentle leader collar being positioned so high on her neck. 

It was kinda bizarre how she freaked out and bloodied herself so suddenly, then acted like nothing had upset her the moment I removed it. I don't want to try it again without some kind of plan, because I don't want to condition the wrong response. As she was never properly socialized, I may need to muzzle her at some point, also, which is another thing on her face. Does anyone have any thoughts?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm not a big fan of head halters. I've seen them rub a dog's eyes to the point of permanent damage (lovely GSD in my apartment building with one dead white eye from a head halter), and if the dog suddenly lunges forward, like after a squirrel, the halter could snap their head back against their neck and then you're looking at spinal damage.

Have you considered a harness and loose leash walking training? There's several methods that work beautifully in the space of a few weeks, like be a tree (any time the dog pulls, you stop short. they only get to walk if they don't pull) or penalty yards (if they pull, you turn 180 degrees and walk a few yards, moving forward again when they're level with your body).

ETA: Silly me! I meant to thank you for taking on this dog. She's lucky she has you.


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## Alethea (Apr 26, 2010)

Amaryllis said:


> Have you considered a harness and loose leash walking training? There's several methods that work beautifully in the space of a few weeks, like be a tree (any time the dog pulls, you stop short. they only get to walk if they don't pull) or penalty yards (if they pull, you turn 180 degrees and walk a few yards, moving forward again when they're level with your body).


Hi Amaryllis, I hadn't really considered a harness because in the wrong hands, or inexperienced hands, they are said to make the dog only pull more. And being as she is a powerful breed, (and I'd never heard of being a tree or penalty yards,) I'd never really thought of it as an option. Is there a 'better' harness to get? I've seen so many, and being a horse person, I know that, like with a saddle, some styles don't fit right. I've looked at the harnesses that double for riding in the car, and that appeals to me because eventually when she is more trained I would like to take her places. But I've wondered as to their effectiveness for walking as well as fit and movement. And thoughts on that?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You might also try a front clip harness. Something like the EZ walk harness will turn the dog 180 degrees if it pulls, but will do so by the BODY rather than the nose. I know some dogs are really, really difficult to manage loose leash walking techniques with (being a tree or going the opposite direction if the dog has the mass or strength to physically move YOU doesn't work very well), but I really, really hate head harnesses for the reasons Amaryllis mentioned. If you've got a powerful dog who is pulling hard, or a dog with a shortish muzzle I Just... wouldn't.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

It can take quite a while for a dog to adjust to a head halter. Did the instructions give advice on the adjustment period (ours had a whole DVD on use)? That being said some dogs never get used to them. Duke could not use the thing no matter how much we worked on it. Look up Gentle Leader/Halti acclimation for advice on getting the dog used to it. I did use the Gentle Leader with Remus who went through a highly reactive phase, it worked wonders for him. Some dogs are easier to train to LLW than others. Penalty yards, be the tree, we did it for months and it did nothing because when a dog barks behind a fence he is still going to react, when a kid went by on a scooter he went mad.  The Gentle Leader made it possible to walk him. My biggest complaint was that I couldn't actually train him with it on. I eventually switched him to a harness, now I go back and forth between his collar and his harness.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I have seen head halters cause dogs to panic, which can easy lead to damage to the neck in various places, I've seen them rub at the eyes, and even if they're 'fitted properly' they can rub way the hair from the muzzle. It's usually easy to tell if a dog is walked in a halter because they will usually have a ridge rubbed into their face.

They put unnecessary pressure on sensitive nerves in the face. It can be very irritating, if not even painful, to have pressure there. 

An 'easy walk' or 'no pull' harness will work better. Or even just get a normal harness and clip the lead in the front. And take every opportunity you can to train her while using this tool


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## Alethea (Apr 26, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> I have seen head halters cause dogs to panic, which can easy lead to damage to the neck in various places, I've seen them rub at the eyes, and even if they're 'fitted properly' they can rub way the hair from the muzzle. It's usually easy to tell if a dog is walked in a halter because they will usually have a ridge rubbed into their face.
> 
> They put unnecessary pressure on sensitive nerves in the face. It can be very irritating, if not even painful, to have pressure there.
> 
> An 'easy walk' or 'no pull' harness will work better. Or even just get a normal harness and clip the lead in the front. And take every opportunity you can to train her while using this tool


Thanks HollowHeaven, and everyone. I actually saw a video just last night about a guy teaching penalty yards, and they met another dog on the street wearing a gentle leader and it was in the poor dogs eye! I will start harness shopping. Does anyone recommend a specific one? Like I said, I would definitely be interested in one that doubled as a car-safety harness as well.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

As far as no pull harnesses a lot of people like EZ-walk but Freyja hates hers and I'm not fond of it (it comes loose super easily so you always have to adjust it). It makes her walk funny and the first time I put it on she just flopped down and wouldn't walk. Other people swear by the Freedom but I know some one else had issues with it chafing their dog. The Sporn no pull is also pretty popular, sort of wishing I had tried that one for Freyja. I have another no-pull but I don't think they make it anymore (I bought it years ago for Duke, he just pulls worse in a harness, doesn't pull on a collar). Remus walks in a Ruffwear Webmaster harness now and I love it but it isn't nopull. I will probably buy the same harness for Freyja when she is full gorwn. As far as car harnesses I believe there have been studies that now say you shouldn't use them (I think there was a post about it recently). I know one of the Kong Harnesses has a car strap though (you can buy it at Petsmart).


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## Alethea (Apr 26, 2010)

Remaru said:


> As far as no pull harnesses a lot of people like EZ-walk but Freyja hates hers and I'm not fond of it (it comes loose super easily so you always have to adjust it). It makes her walk funny and the first time I put it on she just flopped down and wouldn't walk. Other people swear by the Freedom but I know some one else had issues with it chafing their dog. The Sporn no pull is also pretty popular, sort of wishing I had tried that one for Freyja. I have another no-pull but I don't think they make it anymore (I bought it years ago for Duke, he just pulls worse in a harness, doesn't pull on a collar). Remus walks in a Ruffwear Webmaster harness now and I love it but it isn't nopull. I will probably buy the same harness for Freyja when she is full gorwn.* As far as car harnesses I believe there have been studies that now say you shouldn't use them (I think there was a post about it recently)*. I know one of the Kong Harnesses has a car strap though (you can buy it at Petsmart).


I can't seem to find a thread or a post on car harness safety. did a few searches of the forum and came up empty. Anyone know offhand where it is?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/284225-dog-car-harnesses-dont.html

Here it is. I just stumbled across it again when I was looking for more info on service dogs. We have had quite a few threads on harnesses as well. I think it comes down to what you are looking for and what fits your dog well.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I love lupines no pull harness, it is the best! It is a belt basically, with a streak that goes between the getting legs and clips right to the collar. It's great, because it doesn't interfere with the shoulders.

If you are looking for a head halter, go with a halti. It has a padded nose piece and is not right around the muzzle unless the dog (or human) pulls in it. It has a safety strap, so even if they get the part off of their nose, the leash is still connected to the collar.

Honestly,I don't know what people are doing to their dig to do damage to their neck with head halters. I have used Haltis on hundreds of dogs with no issue.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

gsdhunter said:


> I love lupines no pull harness, it is the best! It is a belt basically, with a streak that goes between the getting legs and clips right to the collar. It's great, because it doesn't interfere with the shoulders.
> 
> If you are looking for a head halter, go with a halti. It has a padded nose piece and is not right around the muzzle unless the dog (or human) pulls in it. It has a safety strap, so even if they get the part off of their nose, the leash is still connected to the collar.
> 
> Honestly,I don't know what people are doing to their dig to do damage to their neck with head halters. I have used Haltis on hundreds of dogs with no issue.


and I have worked with a vet and have seen plenty of injuries. 
Head halters are not for dogs that lunge, humans that like correction or humans that are impatient, (whip lash can and does occur), dogs with certain length nose (eye irritation) That covers IME and IMO close to 80% of the average joe dog and person team. 

Now I'm not saying that they should be pulled off the shelves and that no one should use them. I myself have used them on my current dog when she was very young but strong. A dog that isn't lunging but rathers to keep a steady long pull can be managed with a head halter. But it's not for most dog/human teams


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I worked for a vet that recommended them and never saw injuries from them. We even had a chiropractor/acupuncturist who used haltis.

That being said, not all head collars are created equal. And you should try not to pull the head around. If people are going to correct, they are better off raising the nose up.


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