# I don't get it (mixed breeds)



## MissyP (Feb 21, 2010)

Over the years I've watched so many new "breeds" develop.. labradoodles, puggles, maltipoos, shnoodles, bullshitz (ok that ones a joke), etc etc.. and I've been astounded at the PRICES of those dogs..
Sure some of them turn out cute, have benefits for people with allergies, temperament /health betterment (supposedly), etc... but they're MUTTS.. 
So my question~ How do breeders/buyers justify the prices of these dogs And people willing to pay obnoxious prices for a mutt~ its just beyond me. 


Please don't flame me, lol.. It's just something I've been baffled about for a while..


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

I don't understand it either. My dog is a mutt. A poodle/schnauzer mutt...or in the world of BYB's, he's a Schnoodle. Yes, it would be a million times easier (and less of a mouthful! LOL) to say that, but I feel like I am just feeding the breeders! I got my dog from a rescue for $200--which is basically just the price of his care (shots, neutered, microchipped, etc...). But, I looked online and they were selling pups for over $1000!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Well, I think your average dog owner often doesn't care whether it's a mutt or not. If it's going to be a pet or a performance dog, then does it really matter whether it's purebred?
The only reason you'd _need_ a purebred is if you're planning to show. I detest the whole philosophy behind conformation, so to me, the mutts are worth just as much as the purebreds. I wouldn't pay a boatload of money for either one.

Then again, I'd never support a breeder, no matter how "responsible". JMO.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

A "breeder" that asked me to teach basic obedience classes raises Labrodoodles. She gets more than $1,500 for them. These are low quality dogs raised on a farm by a well-meaning idiot.

She called me in a panic because right after whelping, her bitch snarled and lunged at "her sister." (a dog, not human...) The owner wanted the Auntie to help raise the pups and wanted me to tell her how to make the new mother be nice...

Most of the pups get shipped by plane, so the new owners never have any idea who they are dealing with or what low quality dogs their pup came from.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't think your issue with the outrageous prices should be that the dogs being sold are mutts. Your issue with the pricing should be that many of these dogs aren't being health tested or proven in anyway. There are many mutts out there that are worth every penny they charge for them, (many Alaskan Huskies for one). Being a mutt or a purebred should have no basis on what the dog costs, it should be the care and breeding that went behind the dog. 
If someone breeds a Yorkie X Shih Tzu cross and both parents are therapy dogs with patellas and eyes done I would expect to pay much more for that pup than a purebred yorkie from a person at Walmart.

IMO your rant should read "I don't get it (Poorly bred dogs)"


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Keechak said:


> I don't think your issue with the outrageous prices should be that the dogs being sold are mutts. Your issue with the pricing should be that many of these dogs aren't being health tested or proven in anyway. There are many mutts out there that are worth every penny they charge for them, (many Alaskan Huskies for one). Being a mutt or a purebred should have no basis on what the dog costs, it should be the care and breeding that went behind the dog.
> If someone breeds a Yorkie X Shih Tzu cross and both parents are therapy dogs with patellas and eyes done I would expect to pay much more for that pup than a purebred yorkie from a person at Walmart.
> 
> IMO your rant should read "I don't get it (Poorly bred dogs)"


Yeah, she said it better than I did.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Well, I think your average dog owner often doesn't care whether it's a mutt or not. If it's going to be a pet or a performance dog, then does it really matter whether it's purebred?
> The only reason you'd _need_ a purebred is if you're planning to show. I detest the whole philosophy behind conformation, so to me, the mutts are worth just as much as the purebreds. I wouldn't pay a boatload of money for either one.
> 
> Then again, I'd never support a breeder, no matter how "responsible". JMO.


Well, people with allergies need a purebred hypoallergenic dog to help with allergies, I generally agree with you. The more I think of it, I don't think I want to support breeders either, reputable/responsible or not.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

MissyP said:


> Over the years I've watched so many new "breeds" develop.. labradoodles, puggles, maltipoos, shnoodles, bullshitz (ok that ones a joke), etc etc.. and I've been astounded at the PRICES of those dogs..
> Sure some of them turn out cute, have benefits for people with allergies, temperament /health betterment (supposedly), etc... but they're MUTTS..
> So my question~ How do breeders/buyers justify the prices of these dogs And people willing to pay obnoxious prices for a mutt~ its just beyond me.
> 
> Please don't flame me, lol.. It's just something I've been baffled about for a while..


This post is going to show off my decades, but when I read this sentence "Over the years I've watched so many new "breeds" develop" . . . . and I've been astounded at the prices of these dogs." I can relate it, and most of the following comments, directly to how I have felt about the promotion of purebred breeds as they have appeared and been promoted somehow as "better than" over the last 40 years.

So as much as you are baffled about why people pay obnoxious prices for a mutt, you need to realize there are many people also baffled about why people are willing seek out and pay obnoxious prices for a purebred.

I would also ask another consideration. I'm sure if I initiated posts such as this one but about purebreds - singleing out only the purebreds as has been done alternately here with mutts - some might get offended. 

Neither are worth more than the other. I know I live in a country of free choices. I thank both of my war veteran grandfathers for that choice.

As a personal answer to your question, I have always noticed the harm done to dogs by the purebred breeding system from the first time, at the age of seven, I sat silently as my mom had coffee with two breeders in a breeding home (purebred collies) that spoke openly about dunking mismarked puppies. My mom had gone for a show boy, and left with an order for the next mismark to go to her home rather than being dunked. It turned out he was a beautiful 1/2 collared tri and we loved him dearly.

I have noticed the harm caused by the promotion and marketting of dogs as a commodity prized by phenotype qualities above all else. 

As someone who loves science, I have also always been deeply critical of any closed stud book system.

My choice has been to avoid supporting that system with my cash. If the registries would change their agenda from the promotion of "purebred" dogs, to the promotion of "well-bred" dogs, I might rethink. I know others who feel much the same. 

Others make different choices, and that is their right. 

SOB


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> my mom had coffee with two breeders in a breeding home (purebred collies) that spoke openly about dunking mismarked puppies.


Bleh, they call drowning "dunking"?!? How cute. I hate euphemisms. 

I have yet to meet a breeder I thought I could support. I'm sure there's at least one out there but I haven't met any. Most tend to get a bit nasty when you ask questions like if they've ever "dunked" a puppy. Which is incredibly important to me; I'm not going to support anyone who has engaged in outright cruelty. I think it's a consumer's right to get straight answers to questions like that. Even if the breeder thinks it's too nosy, or the wrong question, or whatever.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Keechak said:


> IMO your rant should read "I don't get it (Poorly bred dogs)"


^^^^^^^^^That would have been a great post to read.

SOB


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Bleh, they call drowning "dunking"?!? How cute. I hate euphemisms.


Yeah, and I didn't get it. I asked my mom on the way home why she got so fired up and she explained what was meant. I then proceeded to bawl.

SOB


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## MissyP (Feb 21, 2010)

Keechak said:


> I don't think your issue
> 
> IMO your rant should read "I don't get it (Poorly bred dogs)"


Neither an issue nor a rant, I just don't understand how people can justify paying $2500 for a mutt. 
You don't have to want to show your dog to have a purebred, and no doubt there are shows for the mixed breeds as well, judging from the websites I've seen listing "champion" labradoodles (and other mixed breeds).
I just find it interesting how we've gone from what was considered a mutt anytime prior to the 1990's (where you were lucky to be able to GIVE the dog away) to these ridiculously priced 'mixed breeds' post 1990s. 
Supply & demand fads I suppose.

edit: I'm not saying a purebred dog is better at all~ I fully understand that mixed breeds tend to be healthier because genetic defects amongst specific breeds are bred out, so it's not a "my dog is better than yours" kind of post, lol.... I just don't understand the prices!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I can _maybe_ see how, before spaying/neutering was available, breeders would have thought that killing "wrong" pups was necessary to keep the breed standard. But now that pet-quality pups can just be altered and sold to pet homes there's no excuse. And spaying has been routinely available since 1940 at least, neutering even before that.......

Plus cutesy euphemisms for ugly things just make me want to hurl. Call it like it is; if what you're doing is right it doesn't matter what you call it. If it's wrong it also doesn't matter what you call it, it's still wrong.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> This post is going to show off my decades, but when I read this sentence "Over the years I've watched so many new "breeds" develop" . . . . and I've been astounded at the prices of these dogs." I can relate it, and most of the following comments, directly to how I have felt about the promotion of purebred breeds as they have appeared and been promoted somehow as "better than" over the last 40 years.
> 
> So as much as you are baffled about why people pay obnoxious prices for a mutt, you need to realize there are many people also baffled about why people are willing seek out and pay obnoxious prices for a purebred.
> 
> ...


SOB, you've done it again...said everything I wanted to say so much better than I could have said it. I haven't got the experience you have (only been a dog owner for 1.5 yrs), but even for a newbie like myself, it's plain to see that science and common sense are on your side.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> I can _maybe_ see how, before spaying/neutering was available, breeders would have thought that killing "wrong" pups was necessary to keep the breed standard. But now that pet-quality pups can just be altered and sold to pet homes there's no excuse. And spaying has been routinely available since 1940 at least, neutering even before that.......
> 
> Plus cutesy euphemisms for ugly things just make me want to hurl. Call it like it is; if what you're doing is right it doesn't matter what you call it. If it's wrong it also doesn't matter what you call it, it's still wrong.


Just to point out, I don't think that is all that common or at least it isn't with the breeders I know. I know a ton of mismarks that get petted out. 

Just don't want anyone to leave with the thought that ALL (or even most probably) show breeders do things like that.


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## mrslloyd09 (Jul 12, 2009)

MissyP said:


> bullshitz (ok that ones a joke)


No joke, the day I went to sign my girls up for day care, a guy, maybe 19 was in with his puppy. You could tell it was pit was it was fuzzy so I had no clue what it was mixed with, I thought maybe golden retriever. The receptionist was asking about the puppy's shot record and he said *the breeder* had given him his first set. When she asked what he was, yep, you guessed it, pit bull/shih tzu.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Missy, I totally understand your confusion about these new "designer" breeds of dogs, which are, in all actuality, mutts (never liked that term; seems to convey a "less than" attitude about mixed breeds). I don't understand it either.

I am an animal lover, and one who believes that ALL animals deserve to be loved and cared for. I got my mixed breed Rottweiler mutt for $75 ... but knowing what I know now after having her for this past year, I would pay that 15 or 20 times over for her! As I am sure many of the dog-lovers here would do for their beloved pets!

However, with that said, I will also agree that I don't understand the prices commanded for purebreeds either in many cases. I mean, sure, if it's going to be a grand champion in the show ring or something ... but for a companion animal? My friend recently got a Griffonshire pup ... I think she paid over $2,000 for her, AND it was a puppy mill dog (Pet Land). 

While Bella is absolutely priceless to me, and I wouldn't take a million dollars for her, the ridiculous prices for pups these days astound me! But then again, I am a die-hard rescue/shelter dog proponent ... not for the cost factor, but for the "these dogs need homes" factor. I hate looking at Petfinder and shelter websites because I would take them all if I could!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Just to point out, I don't think that is all that common or at least it isn't with the breeders I know. I know a ton of mismarks that get petted out.
> 
> Just don't want anyone to leave with the thought that ALL (or even most probably) show breeders do things like that.


Probably not now. In the '80s I think it was pretty common. And whenever spanielorbust was 7 years old......(I was 7 in 1986). 

And even now most of the breeders I've spoken to get defensive if asked that kind of question. Perhaps oversensitivity due to anti-breeder backlash or maybe they do have something to hide, who knows.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

A half collar is considered a "mismark" in the Collie world!? wow... I know tons of aussies with broken, half, and no collars that show and win. I even know of an aussie with a half collar and a large black dot smack in the middle of her white chest that has points on her name.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

MissyP said:


> I just find it interesting how we've gone from what was considered a mutt anytime prior to the 1990's (where you were lucky to be able to GIVE the dog away) to these ridiculously priced 'mixed breeds' post 1990s.
> Supply & demand fads I suppose.


And way back when, no one cared who the dog's parents were or what titles they had, as long as the dog could do what it was bred to do. You would have gotten laughed at for paying extra for a pure bred dog - still would in many circles.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

infiniti said:


> I will also agree that I don't understand the prices commanded for purebreeds either in many cases. I mean, sure, if it's going to be a grand champion in the show ring or something ... but for a companion animal? My friend recently got a Griffonshire pup ... I think she paid over $2,000 for her, AND it was a puppy mill dog (Pet Land).


LOL, "Griffonshire" is a mixed breed....Brussels Griffon/Yorkshire Terrier mix. Does your friend think the pup is purebred? Leave it to Petland  .


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Keechak said:


> A half collar is considered a "mismark" in the Collie world!? wow... I know tons of aussies with broken, half, and no collars that show and win. I even know of an aussie with a half collar and a large black dot smack in the middle of her white chest that has points on her name.


No, it's not a mismark in collies.


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## MissyP (Feb 21, 2010)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> And way back when, no one cared who the dog's parents were or what titles they had, as long as the dog could do what it was bred to do. You would have gotten laughed at for paying extra for a pure bred dog - still would in many circles.


I know.. I remember when my older cousin bought a purebred rottweiler for $700 back in the 80's. My family thought he was a fool for paying that much (which was a lot for a dog in the 80's).


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> Probably not now. In the '80s I think it was pretty common. And whenever spanielorbust was 7 years old......(I was 7 in 1986).
> 
> And even now most of the breeders I've spoken to get defensive if asked that kind of question. Perhaps oversensitivity due to anti-breeder backlash or maybe they do have something to hide, who knows.


I'm not saying it wasn't common in the past. Look at how most breeds came about, there was a lot of culling. But it is not common now for people to cull based on color. I would imagine the reaction would be bad because of the anti-breeder backlash.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Not all mutts are created equal...Here is Florida among the Cattlemen of the Kissimmee River watershed, the Heartland, and down around Lake O. (basically draw a line just south of Orlando from the Gulf to the Atlantic) is very strong cattle country. Some very large ranches are in this part of the state. But it is different than any place else in the country. The pastures are broken with thick swamps, hammocks, and piney woods filled with palmettos. ( I have been various ag industries my entire 20 plus year career) I have been on ranches and cattle operations all over the country. No other place is quite like the Florida ranches. (Texas has some pretty scrubby huge ranches and wild cattle. So it is a bit similar) The cattle graze in the pastures but spend a lot of time in the woods. They have to deal with panthers, bears, coyotes, plus Alligators, etc. Florida woods cattle are wild, mean and can be dangerous. ( I have the scars, mishapen finger and collar bone that bends a little too far out to prove it) 

You will see a Border Collie. Rare but they seem to find a tough hard one now and then. Same with Aussies. But when you see either of these, they are behaviorally very different than most of the breed. 
The most common cow dogs down here are two breeds/types.

ACD's. The cattlemen call them by the Blue Heeler name. This is the number two breed. 

The number one breed is a dog called.... A Florida Cur or Arcadia Cur or Cracker Cur. Most look pretty much like a cur type dog. But size, color, body shape, etc vary widely. There is no registry. No stud books, no testing, no trials, etc. They are bred on one trait. Working ability. And if you do not know the right people, have no connections, etc. Obtaining a good one can be rather expensive. They are not sold that often. Trading is common. Sometimes for other things. Like studding out a good bull- multiple times. 
The reality are mutts. But mutts with a tough job. 

I actually found some pictures of them.
http://pets.webshots.com/album/135090282EYVJgw

I really miss those days. I don't think you have lived until you have a 900 pound woods steer break out of head high palmettos 25 feet away, coming straight at your horse. Good times.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> But it is not common now for people to cull based on color.


Technically speutering a pup and placing it in a pet home IS "culling". And of course they should be culled from the breeding program if they're not pet quality. But killing them is unacceptable (is "cull" another euphemism? Hmmm). Suppose those kinds of breeders ever wonder WHY there's any kind of "anti-breeding backlash"?


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

Willowy said:


> LOL, "Griffonshire" is a mixed breed....Brussels Griffon/Yorkshire Terrier mix. Does your friend think the pup is purebred? Leave it to Petland  .


This is so true about Petland, the one near where we used to live charge $2200 for a Goldendoodle 

I think a huge part of the problem is that people continue to perpetuate the myth that the doodle mixes don't shed and are hypoallergenic which isn't true! It bothers me most when breeders do it. If you don't know how genetics work you shouldn't be breeding ANYTHING.

Other then that, I think they justify the mixing because they are breeding for "cuteness". If you want a cute mixed breed there are about 100 at our local pound that need homes and don't cost over $1000.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> Technically speutering a pup and placing it in a pet home IS "culling". And of course they should be culled from the breeding program if they're not pet quality. But killing them is unacceptable (is "cull" another euphemism? Hmmm). Suppose those kinds of breeders ever wonder WHY there's any kind of "anti-breeding backlash"?


I really don't see the point of this. Not many breeders kill puppies. The ones that do are not responsible and most people would agree on that. Yes, neutering is also culling.


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## Ladybug Bulldogs (Feb 8, 2010)

Before I got my Great Dane (who just turned 8, April 8th!!) I did alot of research on the breed. My husband was the one who wanted a purebred...I just wanted a dog that would intimidate people yet be good for my (at the time) young children. We had been looking to buy a house in the country and my husband was working nights. There was noway I was going to be home alone with 2 kids and no security...I wanted a big...really BIG dog! Anyway, I had a "Great Dane Handbook" (I don't recall who wrote it) but it said that certain breeders would destroy a pup at birth if the markings weren't "right". All I could think of was how bloody stupid that was!! I would take a dog, or ANY animal even if it had pink & purple polka dots!!! Breeders that would "destroy" an animal because they couldn't get top dollar as a result of colour or markings shouldn't breed....IMO.

When my OEB lost 2 pups at birth (we tried for almost 2 hours to bring each pup back!), I cried! We even had a small "service" for them. People fall in love with a dogs character, not its spots...or lack of! 

When I advertised looking for homes for my pups, I priced according to what others were, but about $300-$400 less so I would be able to pick who took home my beautiful babies, and I am glad I did. I turned away at least 5 people who weren't right for my pups, but I also lowered the price for 1 family and allowed another to make payments of what they could afford...all while still offering the same health guarantee as the others. After all was said & done...I walked away having "made" $50.00. But that 1st Thank you card I received from a very happy family who "found the missing link to their family" made every sleepless night, every pile of poop, every nip to my toes worth every second of it.

Some breeds are pricey (English Bulldogs for example) because of the cost to breed the dogs in the 1st place. Artificial insemination, c-sections, mother care...these are reasons alot of breeders charge the prices they do. Add a champion title to the pups lineage...$ goes up and breeders feel justified in doing so. If a person is willing to pay up to say $2000 for a dog, people are going to sell them for that price and alot of people think the more expensive the dog the better it is...total BS I say!


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Willowy said:


> LOL, "Griffonshire" is a mixed breed....Brussels Griffon/Yorkshire Terrier mix. Does your friend think the pup is purebred? Leave it to Petland  .


LOL ... I didn't even know that it wasn't a purebreed dog!  I don't know much about uncommon breeds at all, and a Brussels Griffon is not common around here, though Yorkies are, but I never made the connection. DUH!

Of course, after you said that, I remembered her telling me it was a "new" breed, so that all makes sense now. I am sure she doesn't understand that, though, and it's really pointless to try to talk to her about it either.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

MissyP said:


> I know.. I remember when my older cousin bought a purebred rottweiler for $700 back in the 80's. My family thought he was a fool for paying that much (which was a lot for a dog in the 80's).


You'd _still_ get laughed at for paying that for a border collie from working lines. Show-lines are a totally different story. 

But again, why would anyone care who the dog's parents are if they're not planning on showing the dog? I'm thinking that the average dog owner wouldn't want to fork over $700 or more for a pet when they can just go get a shelter pup or a mutt/purebred from a BYB for a whole heck of a lot less. The registries are promoting the idea that purebreds are somehow superior, even for folks that just want a pet. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I really don't see the point of this.


Sorry, it's the pedanticism in me. You said that not many breeders cull for color, but they do because neutering is culling.....I'm bad I know.  

I hope not many breeders kill puppies for reasons of color or markings. I'm sure that some who do are regarded as "responsible" by some people, though.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

MissyP said:


> I know.. I remember when my older cousin bought a purebred rottweiler for $700 back in the 80's. My family thought he was a fool for paying that much (which was a lot for a dog in the 80's).


In 1990, my aunt bought a purebred Rottweiler for $1500 . The whole family thought she was nuts! But she was one of those people, like my friend with the Griffonshire, who had money and believed that if it was worth having, it was worth having the "best" and spending the money to prove it!

He was a beautiful dog, from grand champion parents (German bloodline) who were show dogs. I inherited him when she died in 1994. She had also spent almost $1000 on obedience training for him, but he wouldn't obey ANYTHING. When I got him, he was 4 years old, under-stimulated, under-exercised, and totally unruly! He was terrified of thunderstorms, was a digger and a chewer. Ultimately, he dug under the fence one day and he and my heart-dog, my female purebred Rottweiler (free and not papered), got out and were never seen again. I looked for them for 2 months.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

To me it's a to each his own. I wouldn't spend that much money on most dogs outside a couple breeds. Actually... I can only think of two breeds I'd pay a lot for. We won't even talk about how much Mia was, lol! Worth every penny though, imo.

Also, someone in my apartment complex seems to be singing opera.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> Sorry, it's the pedanticism in me. You said that not many breeders cull for color, but they do because neutering is culling.....I'm bad I know.
> 
> I hope not many breeders kill puppies for reasons of color or markings. I'm sure that some who do are regarded as "responsible" by some people, though.


I'm sure some do, but not the vast majority. I just don't want people to read this thread and walk away with "Show breeders kill puppies because they're the wrong color"


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## Ladybug Bulldogs (Feb 8, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Also, someone in my apartment complex seems to be singing opera.


Totally random...LOVE IT!!!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ladybug Bulldogs said:


> Totally random...LOVE IT!!!


I was trying to type out this long post but the singing is totally distracting!


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## Ladybug Bulldogs (Feb 8, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I'm sure some do, but not the vast majority. I just don't want people to read this thread and walk away with "Show breeders kill puppies because they're the wrong color"


I hope nobody walks away with that impression either! Was NOT my intent!


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## Ladybug Bulldogs (Feb 8, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I was trying to type out this long post but the singing is totally distracting!


You could always start howling along with them!!!


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## MissyP (Feb 21, 2010)

Just for the sake of nostalgia, my first dog was a heinz 57, the mutt of all mutts, her name was Pocket (my cousin named her).. She started out as my cousin's dog (they lived next door) when I was about 4 or 5 yrs old, but they never paid attention to her so she became my dog.. That little tri-color dog was the most patient & loyal dog any kid could be lucky enough to grow up with. She tolerated dumb stuff like when I harnessed her to my little red wagon, Little Rascals style, while I sat in the wagon with a hot dog tied to a string/stick that I dangled in front of her to get her to go. She just looked back at me like I was a fool ( I was only 6 or 7 yrs old)... we never did go anywhere . When I was 11 or 12, we found her dead on the side of the road~ she wasn't the type to wander so we don't know why she'd gone the 1/4 mile from home where she got hit by a car.. (she was the one we buried whose puppy would lay on her grave for days after her death~ from the thread about the dog whose brother died). 
Miss that old girl..


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Ladybug Bulldogs said:


> Anyway, I had a "Great Dane Handbook" (I don't recall who wrote it) but it said that certain breeders would destroy a pup at birth if the markings weren't "right".





Ladybug Bulldogs said:


> I hope nobody walks away with that impression either! Was NOT my intent!


Not my intent either but I did read a lot of those books like the one you mention. I'm not sure when they were written but they do seem to play up the "killing for color/etc." angle. Did they think it impressed people? Why mention it in a breed info book? It just put a bad taste in my mouth at a very young age, that's all I know. I was reading breed info books when I was 7 or 8 and that's about all I remember from them.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> You'd _still_ get laughed at for paying that for a border collie from working lines. Show-lines are a totally different story.
> 
> But again, why would anyone care who the dog's parents are if they're not planning on showing the dog? I'm thinking that the average dog owner wouldn't want to fork over $700 or more for a pet when they can just go get a shelter pup or a mutt/purebred from a BYB for a whole heck of a lot less. The registries are promoting the idea that purebreds are somehow superior, even for folks that just want a pet. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.


I see your point, GLM, but I think there is value in knowing a dog's pedigree. Puppies are pretty much a crap shoot. Time and again, temperament testing has been tested to have little to no correlation with the adult dog's temperament. By knowing the pup's background, you have more information on what the dog might be like. Still a crap shoot, but better odds. Especially, IMO if you know what the siblings/half-siblings grew up to be like.

Again, it's not really pure vs. mixed bred, it's thoughtfully bred vs. essentially random bred.



> I'm sure that some who do are regarded as "responsible" by some people, though.


Honestly there's NO reason to kill puppies that are not show quality but are otherwise healthy. A breeder can sell them on a spay/neuter contract and at least get some money for the pup.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> You'd _still_ get laughed at for paying that for a border collie from working lines. Show-lines are a totally different story.
> 
> But again, why would anyone care who the dog's parents are if they're not planning on showing the dog? I'm thinking that the average dog owner wouldn't want to fork over $700 or more for a pet when they can just go get a shelter pup or a mutt/purebred from a BYB for a whole heck of a lot less. The registries are promoting the idea that purebreds are somehow superior, even for folks that just want a pet. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.


Actually 700 was not a crazy amount of money for a quality dog in the 80's. I paid just shy of twice that for a Rottweiler in 1986. The cost of good purebred dogs has not gone up as much as most things in the last 25 years. 

As for working border Collies. I don't think you would touch a GOOD working BC for 700 bucks. 


As to why someone would pay a fair amount of money for a pet puppy. To many, having a puppy from a quality bloodline, multi generations of tested and screened dogs, support from the breeder, etc. is worth it. A dog is a long term commitment. The difference in price between a 100 dollar shelter dog and a 1000 dollar "pet" from a quality breeder and bloodline is not a significant amount of money over a ten plus year life span of a dog. Less than 100 bucks a year. I have not priced a "hip job" for a dysplastic dog lately but what are you talking? 3 grand? More? What about other chronic conditions? Seizures? etc. Nothing in life is for sure... But for some, increasing the odds is worth it for some.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> No, it's not a mismark in collies.


True, its not an official mismark in Rough Collies, but a full white collar is favored making the half collared dogs less of a value in a litter. These breeders called half-collared pups mismarks, as I've heard many do since then as well. The also commented they "were a waste of Mom's milk".

Check out the stud dog sites and notice that attractive "full white collar" is often mentioned.

SOB


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> True, its not an official mismark in Rough Collies, but a full white collar is favored. These breeders called half-collared pups mismarks, as I've heard many do since then as well.
> 
> Check out the stud dog sites and notice that attractive "full white collar" is often mentioned.
> 
> SOB


preferred markings doesn't equal a mismark. A white collar isn't even written into the standard (unlike in my breed there is a preferred marking written in).

Sheltie people 'prefer' a full white collar too, however I don't know a single sheltie person that culls half collared pups at all (either kill or neuter simply based on the collar). And I was involved in shelties longer than any other breed. In fact, none of my shelties had full collars. I remember Trey's breeder saying she had initially thought he had a full collar but then realizing he didn't and being a bit disappointed, but that was all that was mentioned. 

I don't think it happens often at all these days. You can find many collies that have champed without a full collar.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Ugh, I find it even more despicable that they'd kill pups for not having preferred markings, not even a true mismark. Horrible people.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Those really haven't been "breeds" created over the years. It's almost always first generation crosses with "Schoodles", "Maltipoos", etc. I really have no problem with it. The only one that has been developed into a breed is the Austrailan Labradoodle. Most breeders seem responsible, from what I've seen they do thorough health testing. Here's an excerpt from one breeder's website:

_Our breeding dogs are tested and cleared for hips, elbows, patellas, eyes, and heart. They have yearly checks for CERF (eye) testing, thyroid, and other blood tests. _

A lot of them send puppies home already spayed or neutered and with a 2 year health guarantee. The only thing I question is that across the board they seem to charge $2,500 for the puppies. Who knows, that could be the cost of importing dogs, health testing and neutering. There are different coat types within the breed and the breeders have them categorized according to how high maintenance the coat will be and how likely to be hypoallergenic. And that doesn't mean NON allergenic.

Honestly, I don't see anything morally wrong with breeding crosses like "Peekapoos" and all the others. It's a completely different dog from a Pekingese and Poodle. If that's what people want then so be it. IMO that puppy is worth just as much as a purebred. The problem comes in when they don't do health testing. And getting a puppy that was raised in a loving environment, socialized and knowing their family history IS different from adopting a mixed breed from a shelter. That just isn't for everybody. To me, AKC isn't the "end all be all".


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I don't think it happens often at all these days. You can find many collies that have champed without a full collar.


I would say it doesn't happen as much as it used to.

That was not the full point though.

It is the idea that a dog is less worthy because of its "look" that was cemented into my brain. I find that a very harmful idea, and it is the centerpiece of marketting of many of the purebred dog breeds . . . the standard that is judged is most often made up of predominantly visual points.

It is something I can never agree with.

As well, I noticed the OP has already mentioned, about the original question, that it is all about fads and supply and demand.

Absolutely, that is the case.

Unscrupulous people will get involved whenever they see an opportunity. At one point, that opportunity was through the "fad" of purebred dogs. Currently the "fad" of designer dogs has been added, so not only are "purebred dogs" worth more, but so are "designer dogs".

I happen to hate all of it . . . the marketting of dogs this way . . . . 

SOB


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

It's a marketing gimmick used by backyard breeders whose sole purpose is to make as much money as possible with no concern for the animal or any "bettering of the breed" since it's a mutt.

I own 3 mutts I love dearly, so I don't have anything against them, but really dislike the mentality of breeding mixed breed dogs.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Actually 700 was not a crazy amount of money for a quality dog in the 80's. I paid just shy of twice that for a Rottweiler in 1986. The cost of good purebred dogs has not gone up as much as most things in the last 25 years.


I never said $700 was crazy, particularly if you were planning to show that dog. I just said that you'd get laughed at in some circles for paying that, particularly if the dog was a pet.



JohnnyBandit said:


> As for working border Collies. I don't think you would touch a GOOD working BC for 700 bucks.


I'll have to respectfully disagree there. I know several people who have done just that. When you go on working ability vs. conformation, you don't have to travel all over the place and pay entry fees to title your dogs. You'd be participating in some sheepdog trials, but those are pretty informal and registration fees are rather small, comparatively speaking. You don't have to worry about what the pups look like and whether there are any mismarks, so all the pups can be sold, rather than "culled". Also, you're not paying $$$ to register the dog and its pups with the large registries like AKC (the BC registries don't charge much). The people you're going to want to place your pups with are mostly farmers...and they're not likely to want to pay $700 for an unproven pup. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> As to why someone would pay a fair amount of money for a pet puppy. To many, having a puppy from a quality bloodline, multi generations of tested and screened dogs, support from the breeder, etc. is worth it. A dog is a long term commitment. The difference in price between a 100 dollar shelter dog and a 1000 dollar "pet" from a quality breeder and bloodline is not a significant amount of money over a ten plus year life span of a dog. Less than 100 bucks a year. I have not priced a "hip job" for a dysplastic dog lately but what are you talking? 3 grand? More? What about other chronic conditions? Seizures? etc. Nothing in life is for sure... But for some, increasing the odds is worth it for some.


I see what you're saying here - you'd rather spend the money up front and not have to worry about health issues down the line. I would agree with you, except that it's not that simple IMO. For a lot of breeds, the purebreds (even ones whose parents are tested for a few breed-specific issues) aren't really any healthier. The lab I used to live with (not mine) came from a stellar breeder who did all kinds of health testing. At 4 years old, she had a large cancerous tumor removed from her leg. Bottom line is, it's still a crap shoot.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

I can't believe the difference in prices... Even for pure breeds, there is a huge difference in what some breeders are asking. I know a really great breeder who sells her dogs for $700. Ones that are not show quality go to families or become service dogs.. but then I see non registered similar cross breeds selling for $2000.. I don't get it


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> As to why someone would pay a fair amount of money for a pet puppy. *To many, having a puppy from a quality bloodline, multi generations of tested and screened dogs, support from the breeder, etc. is worth it.* A dog is a long term commitment. The difference in price between a 100 dollar shelter dog and a 1000 dollar "pet" from a quality breeder and bloodline is not a significant amount of money over a ten plus year life span of a dog. Less than 100 bucks a year. I have not priced a "hip job" for a dysplastic dog lately but what are you talking? 3 grand? More? What about other chronic conditions? Seizures? etc. *Nothing in life is for sure... But for some, increasing the odds is worth it for some.*


That was pretty much the reason why I purchased a shih-poo for $1,000. I wanted an intelligent, non-shedding, hypo-allergenic, companion dog with a temperament suitable for apartment living- ie the pup doesn't bark much and isn't aggressive. The breeders I purchased from have been in the business of specializing in poodle mixes for 29 years and offered a 3 year hereditary guarantee. My pup's dam and sire also have documented purebred ancestry with excellent health records. For me, it was a worthwhile investment.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I never said $700 was crazy, particularly if you were planning to show that dog. I just said that you'd get laughed at in some circles for paying that, particularly if the dog was a pet.


ok I don't get what you are saying here?.....maybe some clarification or relevance please?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I'll have to respectfully disagree there. I know several people who have done just that. When you go on working ability vs. conformation, you don't have to travel all over the place and pay entry fees to title your dogs. You'd be participating in some sheepdog trials, but those are pretty informal and registration fees are rather small, comparatively speaking. You don't have to worry about what the pups look like and whether there are any mismarks, so all the pups can be sold, rather than "culled". Also, you're not paying $$$ to register the dog and its pups with the large registries like AKC (the BC registries don't charge much). The people you're going to want to place your pups with are mostly farmers...and they're not likely to want to pay $700 for an unproven pup.


I am going to have to respectfully disagree back. I have been pretty involved with herding breeds most of my life. And while BC's are not my thing, I know more than a few BC breeders. Both "barbie" collie lines and working lines. And I none of the folks I know with either type, could you touch a pup for 700 bucks. In fact working dog prices will run up just as high as conformation pup prospects. 

All of the things I said in my earlier post about getting a pet out of a quality line and tested dogs, multiples many times when you are considering a working dog. IF You really need a working dog, you are going to depending on that dog for many many years. Mis marks, ears that are not conformationally correct, etc usually does not affect the price.

You mentioned sheep dogs trials. Trial dogs are another matter and the cost of the dog can again be even higher. People spend as much or more on trial dogs than they do conformation dogs. And trialers don't really care about mismarks, etc either. Its actually more expensive to play the trial game than the conformation game. First of all the entry fees for trials are higher than conformation, in most cases trials tend to be farther apart, AND there are many more trial titles you can put on your dog. There are what four? or five different organizations that sanction trials? People travel internationally to compete in trials. Plus the average trial dog's career is longer than the average conformation dog's career. In conformation, most folks stop before they title their dog as a champion or as soon as it becomes a champion. Which can be from a couple months to several years. Depending on the dog, breed, and how much time, money the owner wants to throw at it. The more you travel, the more it costs. Put the dog out to campaign with a handler and it cost even more. But the run is usually short lived. 
With trialing, if the owner and dog are into it, the dogs career is MUCH longer. Years and years. The club I am President hosts several trials a year. In fact we hosted one last week. There were a number of older dogs competing. The oldest being nearly 11. He is no longer competitive really. But he was great and the owner knows her time is short with him. He has had a great run in life and still enjoys moving stock. Although he is not as quick or responsive as he once was. But he still LOVES it. You can see the old fella LIGHT UP when he sees the stock. So the owner still pays the entry fees and still trials him. 

Can you purchase what down here is called a farm dog, for less than 700 bucks? Yes..... That will get you a pup from parents that move a little stock now and then and are decent at it. But have no health testing or screenings. And you get what you pay for in life. Even with dogs. You may get a good worker out of such a dog. You may also get a dud. You also may get a good worker that breaks down physically and health wise in a few years. 

The smart money on someone that is going to SPEND a ton of time training their stock dog, they may be born with the instinct but it does not mean they know how to do it right, it takes time to train a good stock dog, that will be physically dependable for years, cannot be purchased for less than 700 bucks.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> This post is going to show off my decades, but when I read this sentence "Over the years I've watched so many new "breeds" develop" . . . . and I've been astounded at the prices of these dogs." I can relate it, and most of the following comments, directly to how I have felt about the promotion of purebred breeds as they have appeared and been promoted somehow as "better than" over the last 40 years.
> 
> So as much as you are baffled about why people pay obnoxious prices for a mutt, you need to realize there are many people also baffled about why people are willing seek out and pay obnoxious prices for a purebred.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post. It really opened my eyes and mind.


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## john47 (Apr 5, 2010)

some people will breed anything just for the money. whether it is purebreed, or mixed breed and this has to stop.i care about the quality of the pup. before breeding do your homework. for example: are there temperment issues with either of the parents, health issues, ect. why breed when there is a chance that the puppies will have a miserable and poor quality life.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

infiniti said:


> However, with that said, I will also agree that I don't understand the prices commanded for purebreeds either in many cases. I mean, sure, if it's going to be a grand champion in the show ring or something ... but for a companion animal?


Most good breeders, despite charging those prices for their pups, don't make much of a profit (if any). If they show their dogs and breed only champions to champions, like my papillon's breeder does, that's costly -- it costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars to get each dog its championship. Good breeders don't breed the same dogs over and over, as they're trying to improve on each generation (my pap's breeder retires each dog after a few litters -- she keeps the best pups from her dogs, shows them to their championships and breeds them once they're old enough), so showing is a constant expense.

Stud fees can run over $1000 per litter, as well. Then you've got all the health testing, ultrasounds, and other pregnancy-related expenses -- I recall Redyre Rottweilers saying in one of her posts that she spends more than $1200 on that stuff per litter. You're never guaranteed a certain number of pups per litter, and with small breeds especially, litter size may be just 1-5 pups. Usually the breeder will keep one or two show/breeding prospects, leaving just a few pups to sell to other breeders or as pets. These pups have vet visit and vaccination expenses before they go. The breeder needs to make some money back, hence the high prices. 

I have no problem paying $1000-$2000 for a pup from a responsible breeder like this. My papillon breeder, for example, only breeds one litter per year. Out of her last litter of four, she kept one pup and sold three for $1500 each. She's really not making much money off these dogs each year.



luvntzus said:


> Honestly, I don't see anything morally wrong with breeding crosses like "Peekapoos" and all the others. It's a completely different dog from a Pekingese and Poodle. If that's what people want then so be it. IMO that puppy is worth just as much as a purebred. The problem comes in when they don't do health testing. And getting a puppy that was raised in a loving environment, socialized and knowing their family history IS different from adopting a mixed breed from a shelter. That just isn't for everybody. To me, AKC isn't the "end all be all".


I somewhat agree. If people are breeding mixes, but are upfront about the fact that they _are_ mixes and can't be registered with the AKC/UKC/etc., and if they're health testing both parents and providing a health guarantee, I'm not going to get up in arms about it -- there are too many truly awful breeders out there for me to worry much about ones who at least care about their dogs. I think that for "designer dog" pets, though, they should cost a bit less than a purebred, because the breeder won't have all of the same expenses. 

The only issue I have is that with these F1 mixes, you're not guaranteed a certain look, temperament, or even coat type (some goldendoodles are "hypoallergenic" while some are not, for example). Some breeders market them as if they are purebred dogs with almost-guaranteed traits, and they shouldn't. A pekeapoo is a completely different dog from a pekingese and poodle, yes, but you can't really make generalizations about pekeapoos as a "breed."


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> *To me it's a to each his own*. I wouldn't spend that much money on most dogs outside a couple breeds. Actually... I can only think of two breeds I'd pay a lot for. We won't even talk about how much Mia was, lol! Worth every penny though, imo.
> 
> Also, someone in my apartment complex seems to be singing opera.


Me, too. If someone wants to pay 2 grand for a doodle, all I can do is wish them the best and hope the parents were health/temperament tested (and most of them seem to be. The doodles we groom and board regularly are healthy, happy, friendly and seemingly well adjusted). If someone has their mind made up that anyone who breeds any dogs, for any reason, is evil and should be shot, that's their opinion but certainly doesn't have to be MY opinion. Breeding is a crapshoot, and s**t happens. Auz didn't come cheap. I could have gotten a GSD out of the newspaper for 200 dollars, but I chose Auz because I liked his parents, I liked the work the breeder did with showing/trailing/working her dogs, and I liked how happy and well adjusted the puppies seemed. No skittishness or shyness or aggression with the parents, either. I wanted a confident puppy out of confident parents raised by a confident and experienced breeder who breeds for brains and temperament. NOT someone who bred their pretty little GSD because she had nice coloring and won pretty ribbons at a dog show, even though she's a skittish nervebag who bites the vet and can't be trusted around kids, and bloated twice by 5 years of age. 
I've met some super awesome mutts that I would have paid money for (a collie/husky mix comes to mind, and the owners said NO WAY when I hinted that I thought she'd look good with my pack, lol), and some mutts I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. Mutts IMO aren't always healthier, smarter, and saner. I've seen a lot of mutts treated for the same problems and woes as purebreds (hips, skin allergies, eye problems, bad teeth, torn ACLs or CCL's, heart problems, liver/kidney problems, etc). 
We're boarding a year old mutt right now who isn't exactly "good tempered" (probably one of the most severe cases of fearfulness I've ever seen, and this dog wouldn't hesitate to bite if he was displeased enough). He also has a sway back that would make a Fila jealous. 
I've seen genetically sound, well bred, stable puppies turn into loose cannons by the time they're a year or two old. A genetically sound dog _no matter how good the breeding_ is no a guarantee of a Great Dog, unless the owner is willing to put in the time and effort to bring that dog up to his full genetic potential. This goes for mutts AND purebreds IME. 
If I was going to buy any collie type, I wouldn't choose a show line dog (I haven't been overly impressed with their brains), or a sport dog (I haven't been overly impressed with their lack of an "off switch"). I would look for a young adult (maybe a herding wash out) with a sweet and willing-to-learn disposition. Not everybody would want that. To each their own is right.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

i haven't read all the posts but I have to say something about not supporting responsible breeding.

First I'd like to define responsible in this context as a breeder who does health testing, breeds for the betterment of the breed, requires s/n and sends their pups to good homes. Making a few bucks/showing the dogs is just a side effect.

Okay, so assuming we ALL hold up to this standard, if we don't breed and we spay/neuter our pets, dogs will eventually become extinct.

I don't support BYBs or ridiculous new breeds but someone responsibly breeding an existing breed is a good thing IMO. My own dog is a mutt and I love her death but I understand someone wanting a pet quality purebred dog. they may just like the look or go for temperament/energy level/whatever. You can't really do with a mutt until you've lived with it for a while(and I don't mean only a week).

I'm sorry, I just had to rant, I don't understand how someone could be against responsible breeding. I know the show ring affects many breeders' judgments but there are still some out there that care about the breed and not just about winning a prize.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> The only reason you'd _need_ a purebred is if you're planning to show. I detest the whole philosophy behind conformation, so to me, the mutts are worth just as much as the purebreds. I wouldn't pay a boatload of money for either one.
> 
> Then again, I'd never support a breeder, no matter how "responsible". JMO.


You left out service dogs.

Some service dogs have to do jobs that would cause the average mix breed to curl up and go catatonic, or have to be retired early because of health/hip/eye problems. Plus the fact that in dealing with mixes, the whole health/hip/eye issue is pretty much a crapshoot.

We support Guide Dogs For The Blind as a *responsible* breeder because they have actually improved the lines of dogs they use by very careful select breeding to produce guides whose health cannot be matched outside of their closed population breeding stock by any other pure lines as well as mixes.

It all depends on which perspective one has and what the dog will be used for. As far as pets go....mixes can be a wonderful choice, even if they are not a "breed" unto themselves. But for some serious service work......mixes cannot even come close to properly doing the jobs required. Not a slam on the mixes; just seeing the results of 60+ years of specially selected and manipulated gene lines of a breeding stock for guidework.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am going to have to respectfully disagree back. I have been pretty involved with herding breeds most of my life. And while BC's are not my thing, I know more than a few BC breeders. Both "barbie" collie lines and working lines. And I none of the folks I know with either type, could you touch a pup for 700 bucks. In fact working dog prices will run up just as high as conformation pup prospects.
> 
> All of the things I said in my earlier post about getting a pet out of a quality line and tested dogs, multiples many times when you are considering a working dog. IF You really need a working dog, you are going to depending on that dog for many many years. Mis marks, ears that are not conformationally correct, etc usually does not affect the price.
> 
> ...


What if a farmer has had the same lines of BC's for years, and the parents have been stellar farm dogs and lived to be 14-16 years old and were working until the day they died? Is health testing necessary? Wouldn't form follow function? And I always assumed that someone who has stock at home, and uses their dogs for real work on a real farm/ranch aren't even going to bother with trialing, or being weekend warriors on the trial circuit. I've heard (no pun intended ) that you can get a herding wash out (young dog) for cheaper than a "good" working dog of the same age, but I suppose all situations are different. Some dogs never really "turn on" to sheep, cattle, etc. (IME, the BC split is getting almost as heated as the GSD split!)


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> As someone who loves science, I have also always been deeply critical of any closed stud book system.
> 
> My choice has been to avoid supporting that system with my cash. If the registries would change their agenda from the promotion of "purebred" dogs, to the promotion of "well-bred" dogs, I might rethink. I know others who feel much the same.
> 
> ...


Scientifically done, closed population breeding pools can also _increase_ the health of the line as well.

In the general population of Labs, the hip dysplasia rate is around 30%. In the closed population of Labs at Guide Dogs For The Blind, through very careful select scientific breeding methods, they have reduced that rate to less than 1/2 of 1% of their dogs. Significant reduction in other health issues compared to the population of "normal" purebred Labs has also been achieved by using their methods.

Science+good responsible breeding= better lines. It can be done.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> You left out service dogs.
> 
> Some service dogs have to do jobs that would cause the average mix breed to curl up and go catatonic, or have to be retired early because of health/hip/eye problems. Plus the fact that in dealing with mixes, the whole health/hip/eye issue is pretty much a crapshoot.
> 
> ...


If I were looking for a dog who would have a high-stress job (seeing-eye dog, service dog, police k-9, etc) you can bet the farm that I would be looking for a PB dog, WITH the breeding standing behind it. I know a few labs who have been used for work (seeing eye, therapy, etc) and the dogs were selectively bred for the temperament and characteristics that made them have the attributes to handle that high stress job. Some of the rescue/shelter dogs would make EXCELLENT therapy dogs, nursing home dogs, etc (greyhounds come to mind, as do many mixes I know personally). (However, probably the most vicious and unpredictable dog I have ever had the displeasure of meeting was a purebred lab out of a rescue. The dog was nuts, and IMO should never have been adopted out. I'm all for rescue and rehabilitation, but I am also all for the common sense thread that you just can't save EVERYTHING...)


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## nainai0585 (Jan 30, 2010)

I personally would never pay over $200 CAD for ANY dog, purebred or not. I'm not looking for anything other then one that can be easily trained and fits well into my home and our activities. My first dog was a labx we got for free. My second now is a JRT we purchased for $200. Anything over this is absolutely ridiculous IMO, ESPECIALLY for a pet who will do nothing more then go out on walks and play.

I will always choose a free dog over a grand champion any day.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> What if a farmer has had the same lines of BC's for years, and the parents have been stellar farm dogs and lived to be 14-16 years old and were working until the day they died? Is health testing necessary? Wouldn't form follow function? And I always assumed that someone who has stock at home, and uses their dogs for real work on a real farm/ranch aren't even going to bother with trialing, or being weekend warriors on the trial circuit. I've heard (no pun intended ) that you can get a herding wash out (young dog) for cheaper than a "good" working dog of the same age, but I suppose all situations are different. Some dogs never really "turn on" to sheep, cattle, etc. (IME, the BC split is getting almost as heated as the GSD split!)


If the farmer has stellar farm dogs that are living and working 14-16 years, he is going to have a waiting list years long and will not be selling them for a few hundred bucks. 

Additionally, most farm dogs, even the good ones, don't make it 14-16 years. Too many things can happen in a working environment for dogs to live to their full potential. 

And..... I would have to see this line of farm dogs that were sound, living and working for 14-16 years with no testing to believe it. I know it was hypothetical.... But I also don't think it is out there.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

Ok I read most of the posts now. And I'd like to make a comment on prices.

BYB's have high prices b/c they are breeding for money, so they are obviously going to charge ridiculous prices. Same way you can build your own computer(it's not as hard as it seems, think of Lego blocks) for about 500 bucks or buy an Apple for 1500+(no offense to the Apple users).

Now responsible breeders will charge 1000+ dollars because they do health testing(multiple tests for each parent and pup are very expensive, I have researched them), they most likely feed high quality kibble or raw(also more expensive). They go the extra mile in all aspects of caring for the dogs. There's a lab breeder in my area who even include "free" puppy classes(4 weeks I believe) in their prices. Overall they charge a lot of money because they pretty much have to.

And honestly I have seen pretty ridiculous prices from rescues as well. Lexi(from a government sponsored shelter) cost me $75(spay/shots/microchip and tags/heart worm test/deworming/a dose of frontline all included). I have seen dogs in rescue costing well over $400. I browse Petfinder a lot and I have seen a dog pulled from the same shelter I got Lexi from and put into a rescue and costing $350. In this case, the rescue was making profits too.
And most of these dogs come from mills/BYBs/the "streets" with no health guarantees. So IMO paying more money for a well-bred dog is more worth it than buying a "cheap" dog will have potential issues down the line. I know I just sounded hypocritical since Lexi is from a shelter but the reason I went that way was because she was MY first dog, and I couldn't really afford a well-bred dog at the time.

I have done a lot of research on breeding and the cost of it and most breeders(responsible) make little to no profit from it.

Gosh, sorry long post.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> What if a farmer has had the same lines of BC's for years, and the parents have been stellar farm dogs and lived to be 14-16 years old and were working until the day they died? Is health testing necessary? Wouldn't form follow function? And I always assumed that someone who has stock at home, and uses their dogs for real work on a real farm/ranch aren't even going to bother with trialing, or being weekend warriors on the trial circuit. I've heard (no pun intended ) that you can get a herding wash out (young dog) for cheaper than a "good" working dog of the same age, but I suppose all situations are different. Some dogs never really "turn on" to sheep, cattle, etc. (IME, the BC split is getting almost as heated as the GSD split!)


BTW having been lurking around both the GSD AND the BC split. I think the BC split is currently more heated than the GSD split ever was. 

The Lab split ain't too friendly either. 

Some breeds..... The fanciers are working to ensure a split does not happen.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> Scientifically done, closed population breeding pools can also _increase_ the health of the line as well.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Science+good responsible breeding= better lines. It can be done.


Yes, as long as breeders are careful to keep diversity at hgih enough levels as they do this - this means not decreasing the gene pool within that closed population.

I've yet to see it deliberately be done long enough within any breeding population to endorse breeding within closed gene pools as the "way to go". Currently those breeding with closed populations are often done so without much scientific thought toward many generations forward and harm IS being caused.

As someone who is also a libertarian by nature (I like my freedoms) I also cannot condone the idea that because some might embrace this as the "ideal" way to breed, that those thoughts should be imposed on others. 

There are many breeding methods that can be used to keep the risk of health issues decreased in pups, and the method one breeder might choose to use and support might be different from another. Not a one method is a guarantee.

I feel, very often, there are many who want to paint "one way" as the most ethical as if we need to decide as a group. I don't like seeing this as truly all ways have pitfalls and gray areas to consider and we all have different personal experiences which will guide our decisions . . . which is why I commonly mention that as a buyer/adopter I have my own choice to make, and others have theirs. There is no need for ridicule and condemnation of a choice simply because it is one we might not understand. Honest questions about the choice, I can understand. Many times the questions asked about "alternate" choices are not honest, but are statements of dissatisfaction in disguise.

SOB


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Yes, as long as breeders are careful to keep diversity at hgih enough levels as they do this - this means not decreasing the gene pool within that closed population.
> 
> I've yet to see it deliberately be done long enough within any breeding population to endorse breeding within closed gene pools as the "way to go". Currently it is most often done without much scientific thought toward many generations forward and is causing harm.
> 
> ...


GDB breeds their lines with at least 10 years future use in mind.

The reputable guide providers do have a breeding swap program, where both males and females are "loaned" out to other schools to keep the diversity varied and to combat the narrowing of gene lines. Highly successful. Only those schools which meet the stringent breeding standards are allowed to trade stock. This permits the providers with an estimated 20 year genetic diverse lineage probability, and that is what they have used as a template for future lines to reduce harm.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I see what you're saying here - you'd rather spend the money up front and not have to worry about health issues down the line. I would agree with you, except that it's not that simple IMO. For a lot of breeds, the purebreds (even ones whose parents are tested for a few breed-specific issues) aren't really any healthier. The lab I used to live with (not mine) came from a stellar breeder who did all kinds of health testing. At 4 years old, she had a large cancerous tumor removed from her leg. Bottom line is, it's still a crap shoot.


BTW if your basing this on one Lab from a "stellar" breeder then you don't have enough information to base a decision on whether purebreds are no more healthy than mutts. I can tell you this. After a lifetime of owning well bred dogs, having been involved with the dog community for life, etc. choosing a well bred dog that will live a long healthy life free of genetically passed ailments is not a crapshoot. There are no guarantees in life. But your odds are far better with a well bred dog. At least in breeds that have not been ruined by their breed clubs.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> BTW if your basing this on one Lab from a "stellar" breeder then you don't have enough information to base a decision on whether purebreds are no more healthy than mutts. I can tell you this. After a lifetime of owning well bred dogs, having been involved with the dog community for life, etc. choosing a well bred dog that will live a long healthy life free of genetically passed ailments is not a crapshoot. There are no guarantees in life. But your odds are far better with a well bred dog. At least in breeds that have not been ruined by their breed clubs.


Absolutely.
This is what drives GDB in their breeding program. GDB's dogs are far superior to the general populations "purebred" Lab lines specifically because of their manipulation of the breeding lines. There is no "luck", "chance" or "crapshoot" with regards to the health of GDB's dogs.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> GDB breeds their lines with at least 10 years future use in mind.
> 
> The reputable guide providers do have a breeding swap program, where both males and females are "loaned" out to other schools to keep the diversity varied and to combat the narrowing of gene lines. Highly successful. Only those schools which meet the stringent breeding standards are allowed to trade stock. *This permits the providers with an estimated 20 year genetic diverse lineage probability*, and that is what they have used as a template for future lines to reduce harm.


Curious. How long has the GDB been working within a closed population? What are their plans after 20 years (4 or 5 gens I'm assuming)? Do they then find themselves in the spot of having to bring in more genes or are you saying the diversity is managed at level (no loss) over this time period? Any links for reference?

SOB


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Curious. How long has the GDB been working within a closed population? What are their plans after 20 years (4 or 5 gens I'm assuming)? Do they then find themselves in the spot of having to bring in more genes or are you saying the diversity is managed at level (no loss) over this time period? Any links for reference?
> 
> SOB


Some info can be found here: http://www.guidedogs.com/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_dog

I will obtain some more from our CSM on Monday at the regular puppy raisers meeting. My wife can also provide more info about her Guides when she gets back from her weekend trip.

Happy reading!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If the farmer has stellar farm dogs that are living and working 14-16 years, he is going to have a waiting list years long and will not be selling them for a few hundred bucks.
> 
> Additionally, most farm dogs, even the good ones, don't make it 14-16 years. Too many things can happen in a working environment for dogs to live to their full potential.
> 
> And..... I would have to see this line of farm dogs that were sound, living and working for 14-16 years with no testing to believe it. I know it was hypothetical.... But I also don't think it is out there.


Thanks for answering my speculations, you make great points


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> BTW having been lurking around both the GSD AND the BC split. I think the BC split is currently more heated than the GSD split ever was.
> 
> The Lab split ain't too friendly either.
> 
> Some breeds..... The fanciers are working to ensure a split does not happen.


I've lurked on some GSD forums and some BC forums, and you're right--the split in BC's is (anymore) more heated than I've seen in the GSD world. I haven't read much about the split in labs. I've read a bit about the ESS split and that wasn't very friendly either...


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

nainai0585 said:


> I personally would never pay over $200 CAD for ANY dog, purebred or not. I'm not looking for anything other then one that can be easily trained and fits well into my home and our activities. My first dog was a labx we got for free. My second now is a JRT we purchased for $200. Anything over this is absolutely ridiculous IMO, ESPECIALLY for a pet who will do nothing more then go out on walks and play.
> 
> I will always choose a free dog over a grand champion any day.


Auz is "just a pet", but not only did I like what the breeder had to offer, but I wanted to support someone who was doing their best to do right by the breed and make as many improvements as they possibly could. I love the GSD breed, and am always happy to see a breeder breeding for healthy dogs with good temperaments. The sport and SV show titles on the parents were an added bonus  Like Laurelin said, to each their own!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> Some info can be found here: http://www.guidedogs.com/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_dog
> 
> I will obtain some more from our CSM on Monday at the regular puppy raisers meeting. My wife can also provide more info about her Guides when she gets back from her weekend trip.
> 
> Happy reading!


Thank you Smithcat. I'll refresh on that site, but I've read it through before. In California a few years ago I spent part of an afternoon at a guide dog raiser's gathering and met some wonderful crossbreeds there as well as purebreds. Of course I've paid attention to this program since. 

I do know, reported on the genetics list more than once, is the fact that guide dog programs see a significant improvement on hips due to their diligence. I've not heard the population was closed, and would be very interested to find out more about this. 

http://www.guidedogs.com/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_dog_breeding

_"The vast majority of our dogs are bred from our own specially selected stock, but a percentage are donated from other schools, through international programs, and other means."_​
SOB


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Thank you Smithcat. I'll refresh on that site, but I've read it through before. In California a few years ago I spent part of an afternoon at a guide dog raiser's gathering and met some wonderful crossbreeds there as well as purebreds. Of course I've paid attention to this program since.
> 
> I do know, reported on the genetics list more than once, is the fact that guide dog programs see a significant improvement on hips due to their diligence. I've not heard the population was closed, and would be very interested to find out more about this.
> 
> ...


Yeah...the LabXGolden line shows a lot of promise. More stamina, more robust, and with their careful breeding selection, none of the undesireable cross breeding traits health-wise.

The "closed-population" means that, aside from a very few other sources (the other guide providers, both domestic and international), there is very little breeding interaction with "regular" purebred lines. An exception can be made IF an "outside" dog shows all the desireable traits needed to refresh the genetic lines and has documented history of lineage and health. Has been done, but very infrequently.

A lot of the time, someone will show up at GDB to donate their "really good 4-year-old purebred, registered and papered Lab, but we just cant handle him/her anymore, so we thought you could use him/her for a Guide", only to be told "No, thank you." It isnt that GDB wishes to offend those who have good intentions; GDB just cannot afford to introduce unknown genetic variables into their closely monitored (and successful) breeding program.

Thanks for your interest!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I've lurked on some GSD forums and some BC forums, and you're right--the split in BC's is (anymore) more heated than I've seen in the GSD world. I haven't read much about the split in labs. I've read a bit about the ESS split and that wasn't very friendly either...


The lab split is more of a behind the scenes split. You almost have three splits there. The conformation folks, the Field Trial folks, and the hunters. I can only speak from the hunters point of view. I am not really into ducks anymore. But duck hunting in many places is done out of small boats. I have not seen an adult Lab at a conformation show in years that I would want to lift in or out of a duck boat.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> Yeah...the LabXGolden line shows a lot of promise. More stamina, more robust, and with their careful breeding selection, none of the undesireable cross breeding traits health-wise.
> 
> The "closed-population" means that, aside from a very few other sources (the other guide providers, both domestic and international), there is very little breeding interaction with "regular" purebred lines. An exception can be made IF an "outside" dog shows all the desireable traits needed to refresh the genetic lines and has documented history of lineage and health. Has been done, but very infrequently.
> 
> ...


Aaaaah. Then we are talking (probably past each other) at the same point, because then this is not a closed population, but a carefully monitored and bred open one.

It is not at all comparable to the closed populations that the registries have created for many breeds.

If your statement is that careful selection and breeding programs can improve health, as exampled by the guide dog programs, I would not provide an argument and would completely agree.

SOB


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Aaaaah. Then we are talking (probably past each other) at the same point, because then this is not a closed population, but a carefully monitored and bred open one.
> 
> It is not at all comparable to the closed populations that the registries have created for many breeds.
> 
> ...


Not airtight "closed population" (read: hillbilly inbreeding), but extremely well monitored and selected, on an "as needed" basis. Happens infrequently.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

I can afford any dog from any breeder. With all the choices available, and after knowing and interacting with thousands of dogs of every breed and mix, I have determined that the ideal dog _for me _is a goldendoodle from a good breeder (and there are many who heath test their dogs). 

If my ideal dog was a purebred papillon or frenchy (two breeds that like hybrids, have no other purpose then to be good companion dogs), none of you would have any problem with me paying $1500 for a pup from a good breeder, so why would you have a problem with paying the same amount for a hybrid from a good breeder?

Am I going to get less of a pet; less of all the companionship qualities I want in a dog because it is a hybrid instead of a purebred? 

These dogs are expensive because the demand is high. The demand is high because these dogs have good companion dog qualities, the qualities that most people want in their dogs.

Asking why people would pay this kind of money for a dog you don't care for is the same as me asking why anyone would pay a lot of money for a papillon or a frenchy just because I would never buy one.

For those of you that are going to ask "why don't you get this or that instead"", why should I when I can get exactly what I want?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> These dogs are expensive because the demand is high. The demand is high because these dogs have good companion dog qualities, the qualities that most people want in their dogs.
> 
> ?


Yup, they are the most popular fad right now. Just like Pit Bulls and Rottweiler's the shelters are always full of the latest fads. Doodles are no exception to that rule. Too much of any "good thing" usually has some pretty bad results. Especially when it comes to breed popularity.

Oddly enough many of those people waiting in line for those perfect Labradoodle dogs wouldn't even consider getting one from a shelter with Unknown lineage. Like the dog that someone paid big bucks for is suddenly not worth anything because someone gave up on them and tossed them into a shelter.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Inga said:


> Yup, they are the most popular fad right now. Just like Pit Bulls and Rottweiler's the shelters are always full of the latest fads. Doodles are no exception to that rule. Too much of any "good thing" usually has some pretty bad results. Especially when it comes to breed popularity.
> 
> Oddly enough many of those people waiting in line for those perfect Labradoodle dogs wouldn't even consider getting one from a shelter with Unknown lineage. Like the dog that someone paid big bucks for is suddenly not worth anything because someone gave up on them and tossed them into a shelter.


If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter. 

The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist. 

For those of you about to post "my local shelter is full of doodles", I know you are fibbing and can probably prove it, so save yourself the embarrassment.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.
> 
> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.
> 
> For those of you about to post "my local shelter is full of doodles", I know you are fibbing and can probably prove it, so save yourself the embarrassment.


Actually my dear, you embarrass yourself with that statement. I have seen plenty of doodles in shelters. Many of them do not make it out the front door. Reason? health issues in some, to hyper in others. But... It is your story and I already know you will tell it the way that you chose to. 

I am NOT suggesting you get a doodle from a shelter either. It is your right to get your dog from wherever you chose and pay however much you want to. Bless you for giving a dog a home regardless of where it comes from. The fact still remains that I and many many others have seen a whole LOT of doodles in shelters. For me, it wasn't just on petfinder, it was first hand. I have years of rescue experience. The story is the same but the breeds change as the years go on. Doodles are plenty in many shelters but Pit Bulls still hold the current popularity record.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Inga said:


> Actually my dear, you embarrass yourself with that statement. I have seen plenty of doodles in shelters. Many of them do not make it out the front door. Reason? health issues in some, to hyper in others. But... It is your story and I already know you will tell it the way that you chose to.
> 
> I am NOT suggesting you get a doodle from a shelter either. It is your right to get your dog from wherever you chose and pay however much you want to. Bless you for giving a dog a home regardless of where it comes from. The fact still remains that I and many many others have seen a whole LOT of doodles in shelters. For me, it wasn't just on petfinder, it was first hand. I have years of rescue experience. The story is the same but the breeds change as the years go on. Doodles are plenty in many shelters but Pit Bulls still hold the current popularity record.


Which shelter? I'll call them on Monday.


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## LaurenE (Mar 16, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.
> 
> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.
> 
> For those of you about to post "my local shelter is full of doodles", I know you are fibbing and can probably prove it, so save yourself the embarrassment.


I haven't visited any local shelters lately but I do get on CL quite a bit. Come to the Dallas metroplex and you will have noooo problem finding a doodle on CL. We have way too many bybs here.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Which shelter? I'll call them on Monday.


Here you go. A whole shelter full of Doodles.

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?shelterid=IN340&preview=1


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Which shelter? I'll call them on Monday.


I just searched Petfinder and found five poodle/lab crosses or poodle/golden crosses in the first couple of pages. That was searching under poodle; I didn't search under lab because I don't have the time. There are also three labradoodles posted on the local Craigslist (two are littermates)...


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

I'm not trying to get into the middle of your little arguement here, but there are plenty of doodles in rescue orgs like this one http://doodlerescuecollective.ning.com/group/doodlesinneed

Sure many of those are just doodle mixes, but there are plenty of dogs there that are clearly goldendoodles. If you want to pay for a dog rather then rescue one thats your business, but don't make it out like finding a goldendoodle for adoption is some herculean feat when it is clearly not.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

LaurenE said:


> I haven't visited any local shelters lately but I do get on CL quite a bit. Come to the Dallas metroplex and you will have noooo problem finding a doodle on CL. We have way too many bybs here.


Dallis craigslist->pets

Search for "pit": 294 hits

Search for "doodle": 1 hit.

You were saying?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am certain you would. Like I said, you don't get to see everything that goes on in shelters. If you volunteered or got heavy into rescue you would know that. I have seen euthanasia numbers fudged on many occasions so that donations do not drop. People don't wish to support places that "murder" to many innocent dogs. The facts do not change, dogs show up, kennel space is tight hard decisions need to be made. 

I try not to memorize each face as I walk through kennels. I know the facts all too well. For that reason and others, I do not write down every dog that is available at every shelter that I walk through. 

If you are truly interested in adopting from a shelter, I will keep my eyes open for you. How far are you willing to travel to adopt? What requirements do you have for your doodle? Age, color, sex? Will you adopt a dog that might need extra medical help or training?

Oh Folks, there is no reason to argue with KaseyT, she has made up her mind and nothing will change it. If you stacked up a pile of Doodles in her front yard, she wouldn't see it.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

MonicaBH said:


> I just searched Petfinder and found five poodle/lab crosses or poodle/golden crosses in the first couple of pages. That was searching under poodle; I didn't search under lab because I don't have the time. There are also three labradoodles posted on the local Craigslist (two are littermates)...


Which Shelter? What area.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Inga said:


> I am certain you would. Like I said, you don't get to see everything that goes on in shelters. If you volunteered or got heavy into rescue you would know that. I have seen euthanasia numbers fudged on many occasions so that donations do not drop. People don't wish to support places that "murder" to many innocent dogs. The facts do not change, dogs show up, kennel space is tight hard decisions need to be made.
> 
> I try not to memorize each face as I walk through kennels. I know the facts all too well. For that reason and others, I do not write down every dog that is available at every shelter that I walk through.
> 
> ...


Which shelter?


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Dallis craigslist->pets
> 
> Search for "pit": 294 hits
> 
> ...


Why are you being so rude? Just because YOU haven't seen them at a shelter doesn't mean others haven't either.

I posted a WHOLE shelter of Doodle dogs. What more are you wanting?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

DuckyNDogs said:


> Sure many of those are just doodle mixes.


That is sort of an Oxymoron isn't it? lol


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

There are currently 8 labradoodles listed on your Dallas CL as well...

Additionally, there are 9 lab/poodle mixes on the first 3 pages of a Dallas Petfinder search.


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

Inga said:


> That is sort of an Oxymoron isn't it? lol


LOL I guess so...is "assorted doodles" a better term?


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Why do different breeds even exist? Because people are looking for certain traits... the "right" size, or temperament, or coat type.. when choosing a dog, people are often encouraged to narrow down their breed choices based on these traits.. but that cannot be done with mutts, because there is no predictability in what size, temperament etc they will be.

I chose to get a Chihuahua because I wanted a tiny dog with minimal grooming requirements and relatively low energy level.

I think predictability is a perfectly legitimate reason for choosing a purebred.

And to tie that in to the topic of this post.. I think THAT is what you're paying for in a purebred, and with that said, I have NO idea why people would fork over big bucks for the designer dogs.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Which Shelter? What area.




tencharacters.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

CoverTune said:


> And to tie that in to the topic of this post.. I think THAT is what you're paying for in a purebred, and with that said, I have NO idea why people would fork over big bucks for the designer dogs.



Me either... and I have a supposed "designer dog".


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> Here you go. A whole shelter full of Doodles.
> 
> http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?shelterid=IN340&preview=1


It's a doodle rescue. 

There are rescues of every imaginable breed, including portuguese water dogs:
http://www.pwdca.org/breed/rescue/

Dog de bordeaux
http://www.ddbsarescue.org/

Wolfhounds:
http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/

I can go on and on.

Do you rally think listing a rescue makes a valid point?


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search...standard+poodle&location=Dallas+TX&distance=0

Here are a few shelters with quite a few.

I don't know where you are, so I am just posting random places with doodle dogs.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> It's a doodle rescue.
> 
> There are rescues of every imaginable breed, including portuguese water dogs:
> http://www.pwdca.org/breed/rescue/
> ...





> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.



But you said that a shelter won't have them. Since they are not a BREED, they would be in shelters and rescues.

Wow, you really have an attitude!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

DuckyNDogs said:


> LOL I guess so...is "assorted doodles" a better term?


LOL I don't know. I mean, what is politically correct terms for doodles now days. lol I like "assorted doodles" though.

That is kind of my point though. You could have a million doodles but it wouldn't be exactly the "right doodle" to *count* as a doodle to some folks.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

DuckyNDogs said:


> I'm not trying to get into the middle of your little arguement here, but there are plenty of doodles in rescue orgs like this one http://doodlerescuecollective.ning.com/group/doodlesinneed
> 
> Sure many of those are just doodle mixes, but there are plenty of dogs there that are clearly goldendoodles. If you want to pay for a dog rather then rescue one thats your business, but don't make it out like finding a goldendoodle for adoption is some herculean feat when it is clearly not.


See above.
-------------------


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Note that searching "doodle" on petfinder doesn't bring much up, as these mixes are listed as "golden retriever/poodle" or "labrador retriever/poodle" rather than as "goldendoodle" or "labradoodle." The "doodles" aren't options in the petfinder breed list... see?


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

CoverTune said:


> Why do different breeds even exist? Because people are looking for certain traits... the "right" size, or temperament, or coat type.. when choosing a dog, people are often encouraged to narrow down their breed choices based on these traits.. but that cannot be done with mutts, because there is no predictability in what size, temperament etc they will be.
> 
> I chose to get a Chihuahua because I wanted a tiny dog with minimal grooming requirements and relatively low energy level.
> 
> ...


Maybe because temperament and traits are as easily predicted in designer dogs as they are in pure bred dogs if you're dealing with a good breeder.


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## LaurenE (Mar 16, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Dallis craigslist->pets
> 
> Search for "pit": 294 hits
> 
> ...


http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/pet/1651805240.html

http://dallas.craigslist.org/sdf/pet/1681016962.html

http://dallas.craigslist.org/sdf/pet/1680493935.html

Sorry, more than 1 doodle. Also, many people delete their ads when the animal is gone. Just saying that I do see ads for doodles fairly often in this area. Why would I lie about that? I also see at least 2 or 3 at any given time that I am at my local dog park. They're coming from somewhere and no, they're not all coming from reputable breeders.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> Do you rally think listing a rescue makes a valid point?


Seriously? Rescue/shelter? Um, yeah a very very valid point. You stated that doodles don't get into shelters and if they do they are adopted right away. That is NOT TRUE in many cases. They just don't always make it out the front door of shelter's either. 

I have seen some tied to dog houses forgotten on the res too. Just like any other breed of dog, they do NOT always find their way into great homes, they DO end up in rescues/shelters and the ARE over bred.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> Note that searching "doodle" on petfinder doesn't bring much up, as these mixes are listed as "golden retriever/poodle" or "labrador retriever/poodle" rather than as "goldendoodle" or "labradoodle." The "doodles" aren't options in the petfinder breed list... see?


Yup, I have been searching for either Retriever or Standard Poodles. Finding TONS of them that way--from ALL over the country...and not all are "breed" rescues.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> It's a doodle rescue.


Doesn't that go against what you've typed here already...? 



> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.
> 
> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.
> 
> For those of you about to post "my local shelter is full of doodles", I know you are fibbing and can probably prove it, so save yourself the embarrassment.


If that were true, there would be no need for an entire rescue (one of probably many throughout the country) dedicated to -doodles.


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> See above.
> -------------------


Where do you think these rescues get their dogs from? Magical doodle-fairies? Do they fall from the sky? Most breed-specific rescues will tell you that they get nearly all of their dogs from owner surrenders or RESCUING FROM SHELTERS!

Listen, theres no reason to be like this. Pay whatever you want for your dog. My husband and I have 3 dogs, one we purchased, one we got from a breed specific rescue, and another was a free "oops" puppy. I'm not saying there is something inherently evil about buying a dog. I will give you that you have a point, if your dog, regardless of the mix or purebreed status, is worth whatever you paid for it to you, then that is your business, and the fact that you are happy with your pet is great. All I am saying is that you look like a bit silly when you claim that you can't adopt a goldendoodle due to incredible demand when CLEARLY you can.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that purebred breeders are better than mixed breed breeders, *because they are breeding an established breed*. 

There are good purebred breeders. There are lousy purebred breeders. There are good mixed breed breeders. There are lousy mixed breed breeders. 

*It is not the dogs being judged, but the manner of their production.* There is a lot of rhetoric being thrown around this thread (and every thread like it ever), and honestly I don't know what the fight is about any more. The users on this board are really all predominately in agreement with one another about what is and is not a responsible breeder, but everyone's so hung up on being _more right_ than people they go picking a fight. And doggone it it's pissing me off.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Pay whatever you want for whatever kind of dog you want. It doesn't matter to me.

I just wanted to show that you CAN get "doodles" from shelters. That's it.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

MonicaBH said:


> Raleigh, NC. Search for yourself.


http://www.spcawake.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Adoptable_Dogs

Wake county spca - doodles - none.

http://www.secondchancenc.org/RP_Adoptable.asp?cid=9

Second chance - doodles - none.

http://www.2pawsup.org/adoptions/dogs.html

2 paws up - doodles - none.

http://members.petfinder.org/~NC378/adoptable_pets.html

Canine connections - doodles - none.

http://www.chathamanimalrescue.org/...=d&PHPSESSID=4ab7cdec18632720e0c8c8ff02e452d4

Chatham Animal Rescue - doodles - none.

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search...%20%20%20%20%20&status=A&animal=Dog&preview=1

Heaven and Earth Animal Rescue Team - doodles - none

http://www.marleyscattales.org/RP_Adoptable.asp?cid=9

Marleys animal rescue - doodles - none.

http://www.snowflakerescue.org/dogspups.htm

Snowflake animal rescue - doodles - none.


I'll continue this later.

Now which shelter was putting down doodles? I still want to call them.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> http://www.spcawake.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Adoptable_Dogs
> 
> Wake county spca - doodles - none.
> 
> ...


There's no point in arguing with someone that's so completely unreasonable. It's been proven over and over again on this thread that you're wrong. 

I needn't continue, as my point was made several posts ago.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/15911233?recno=19

This guy is super cute. What is wrong with him?
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16119811?recno=5


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

Clearly this is a case where the owners temperament doesn't match the dogs...most Goldendoodles I've known are laid back and friendly....


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

What's wrong with you?

I'm sorry, but you are being so rude to everyone. We showed you that you can find them in shelters. UGH!

I entered this info:

www.Petfinder.com
Animal: Dog
Breed: Standard Poodle
Location: Raleigh, NC
Distance: All

I got these as results:
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16130532?recno=11
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16070347?recno=12
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16070349?recno=4
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16121774?recno=19
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/14479131?recno=22
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/15359638?recno=4
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16119805?recno=6

And there are many more. Yes, before you get your panties in a wad, some of those are pretty far from there, but they came up in the search that I did from


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

It doesn't matter, most of those dogs are from rescues, which somehow doesn't count....clearly those aren't adoptable dogs, only shelter dogs are adoptable dogs, and since there are none in the shelter nearby, that means that no goldendoodles ever go to shelters!


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Inga said:


> http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/15911233?recno=19
> 
> This guy is super cute. What is wrong with him?
> http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16119811?recno=5


There nothing wrong with him. Try to get him. There are probably already a hundred applications.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Yeah maybe a million. 

You do know that not all dogs make it onto websites right? 

Just out of curiosity, if you could get that puppy, would you?


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

DuckyNDogs said:


> It doesn't matter, most of those dogs are from rescues, which somehow doesn't count....clearly those aren't adoptable dogs, only shelter dogs are adoptable dogs, and since there are none in the shelter nearby, that means that no goldendoodles ever go to shelters!


Rescues are not shelters. If rescues exist for every breed, you can't claim that people are dumping a certain dogs ( as Inga did) simply because a rescue exists for it.

Inga also claimed that doodle are put down:
_ I have seen plenty of doodles in shelters. Many of them do not make it out the front door. Reason? health issues in some, to hyper in others. _

Inga, what shelter is putting doodles down?


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

kaseyt said:


> rescues are not shelters. If rescues exist for every breed, then you can't claim that people are dumping a certain dogs ( as inga did) simply because a rescue exists for it.


most rescue dogs come from shelters. They "rescue" them from kill-shelters.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

I miss Dogman, at least he was funny!


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> There nothing wrong with him. Try to get him. There are probably already a hundred applications.



Yeah, but the other HUNDRED dogs probably don't even have ONE application on them.


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> rescues are not shelters. If rescues exist for every breed, then you can't claim that people are dumping a certain dogs ( as Inga did) simply because a rescue exists for it.


Most rescues get their dogs from shelters. Lets just say that a Goldendoodle rescue has 5 Goldendoodles. Odds are that at least 2 (and probably 3 or 4) came from pulling those dogs out of shelters. The others are either owner or breeder surrenders, or dogs that have been surrendered to the vet which are then in turn given to the rescues.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Goldendoodles DO come into rescues and shelters and you chose to buy a puppy from a breeder because you wanted certain health and temperament guarantees? That is the case isn't it? I mean, the last 3 pages of this thread is just arguing back and forth that could simply be settled if you would just state that even if you found a doodle you liked at a shelter, it didn't have the health tests ect done to its parents, and that was something you valued, so you chose to purchase a puppy instead.

I don't understand why this is so hard.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> Rescues are not shelters. If rescues exist for every breed, you can't claim that people are dumping a certain dogs ( as Inga did) simply because a rescue exists for it.


Um, WHAT??? The rescue exists BECAUSE people are dumping a certain kind of dog. People who truly love that breed are the people that will start rescues when they see the sheer numbers showing up in shelters or worse. 

See, there is no point arguing with you Kasey, you just really have no clue. Spend a few thousand hours in a few different shelters then you might have the slightest clue.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> most rescue dogs come from shelters. They "rescue" them from kill-shelters.


Are PWD rescues from kill shelters? French bulldog rescues, are they from kill shelters? How about Papillon rescues, are they from kill shelter?


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Inga said:


> Um, WHAT??? The rescue exists BECAUSE people are dumping a certain kind of dog. People who truly love that breed are the people that will start rescues when they see the sheer numbers showing up in shelters or worse.
> 
> See, there is no point arguing with you Kasey, you just really have no clue. Spend a few thousand hours in a few different shelters then you might have the slightest clue.


What shelter would she go to? There aren't any with "doodles"...


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Inga said:


> Um, WHAT??? The rescue exists BECAUSE people are dumping a certain kind of dog. People who truly love that breed are the people that will start rescues when they see the sheer numbers showing up in shelters or worse.
> 
> See, there is no point arguing with you Kasey, you just really have no clue. Spend a few thousand hours in a few different shelters then you might have the slightest clue.


Fine, just tell me which shelter to call to back up your claims?


----------



## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Are PWD rescues from kill shelters? French bulldog rescues, are they from kill shelters? How about Papillon rescues, are they from kill shelter?


Man, I wish I could type where the words would be read slower. Apparently, you can't read properly.

MOST
DOGS
in RESCUES 
come from
KILL 
SHELTERS


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

KaseyT, I'm really confused. What are you trying to prove? Dogs that are in rescue and shelters are still dogs that don't have homes. Whether they came from kill shelters or not is immaterial. Whether they came from no-kill shelters or not is immaterial. Owners had them, then, for whatever reason, did not have them.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> Are PWD rescues from kill shelters? French bulldog rescues, are they from kill shelters? How about Papillon rescues, are they from kill shelter?


_Actually_ there was a Papillon at our local shelter, set to be euthanized and I'm pretty sure a rescue pulled her.... So technically, yes! Some Papillons (and I'm sure at least ONE French Bulldogs and PWD have come from a kill shelter) DO come from kill shelters.

FWIW... A few months ago there was at least 3 "doodles" in my shelter and about 4 listed on Craigslist.



> KaseyT, I'm really confused. What are you trying to prove? Dogs that are in rescue and shelters are still dogs that don't have homes. Whether they came from kill shelters or not is immaterial. Whether they came from no-kill shelters or not is immaterial. Owners had them, then, for whatever reason, did not have them.


+1 I had something like this typed out, but you totally said it better then me!


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

MegaMuttMom said:


> I miss Dogman, at least he was funny!




http://raleigh.craigslist.org/search/pet?query=doodle&catAbbreviation=pet

Raleigh craigslists

Serarch for "pit" 166 hits
Search for "doodle" 0 hits

Better to be right then funny.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Kasey the shelters that I have volunteered at did have rescue groups that would come and pull dogs. If a "kill shelter" is full hard decisions have to be made. If a rescue can come and pull dogs it empties cages and saves dogs. Sometimes the rescues are full as well and they can't come.

Often rescues are made up of many caring individuals that will foster dogs in their homes until they (the group) can find a good home for that dog. 

Not all shelters are rescue friendly, some want the profits of finding homes for whatever dogs they can. Others beg rescue to take dogs.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> KaseyT, I'm really confused. What are you trying to prove? Dogs that are in rescue and shelters are still dogs that don't have homes. Whether they came from kill shelters or not is immaterial. Whether they came from no-kill shelters or not is immaterial. Owners had them, then, for whatever reason, did not have them.


OMG I internet love you! Will you internet marry me?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> Better to be right then funny.


Yeah, but you are NOT right. You just are too foolish to see it.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Fine, just tell me which shelter to call to back up your claims?


Call ANY kill shelter. Out of 10 shelters, 9 will have had a doodle breed that had to be put to sleep. They may have them listed as Poodle mixes or Lab/Retriever mixes...because doodles are NOT pure bred dogs.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

MonicaBH said:


> OMG I internet love you! Will you internet marry me?


We'll have to move our internet providers to Massachusetts, I think they're the only ones that recognize internet marriages as legal. XD


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Better to be right then funny.


Unfortunately, you are neither.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kasey is good for hits and page views on a thread.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Inga said:


> Yeah, but you are NOT right. You just are too foolish to see it.


Wise men have said throughout time, "ignorance is bliss".


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

Jod-dog said:


> Man, I wish I could type where the words would be read slower. Apparently, you can't read properly.
> 
> MOST
> DOGS
> ...


Or any shelter, kill or not, I don't see why it matters. The first post didn't specify that it needed to be a kill shelter, and since there are clearly several doodles in rescues needing homes, and breed specific rescues pull dogs from shelters (if you call your local shelter I promise they have a list of rescues that they call when certain breeds or mixes that consist primarily of that breed come in [and no, they probably won't disclose the rescues on that list to you] who will then come and look at a dog and if its a good fit for their rescue, pull it at either a reduced fee or no fee at all). Therefore doodles go to shelters, and therefore you could have adopted a doodle if you wanted to, from a shelter (by either finding one or getting on a wait list) or from a rescue but you didn't want to, for the valid reasons you have already stated. Beyond this, the debate is pointless.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Fine, just tell me which shelter to call to back up your claims?


I offered you that a few months ago when we were having a discussion remarkably similar to this. I mentioned that our local shelters had over 50 Doodles that they rescued, AND offered you their phone number to back up my claim. You never took me up on it, probably because actually calling them would have proven you wrong, lol. Face it, Doodles end up in shelters all the time, just like every other breed and mix. The world won't end if you admit it.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

MonicaBH said:


> Wise men have said throughout time, "ignorance is bliss".


Kasey must be the most blissful person on the planet!


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Jod-dog said:


> Call ANY kill shelter. Out of 10 shelters, 9 will have had a doodle breed that had to be put to sleep. They may have them listed as Poodle mixes or Lab/Retriever mixes...because doodles are NOT pure bred dogs.


Very true, but also doubtful they would tell someone over the phone how many dogs they actually euthanize. That is very bad press for them, and they cannot afford to do that. Donations keep shelters open. Bad press =less donations.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Well, if you could find those that are willing. If they have non-profit status, don't they have to print statistics on the number of dogs taken in and pts and all that? Hmmmm...


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I offered you that a few months ago when we were having a discussion remarkably similar to this. I mentioned that our local shelters had over 50 Doodles that they rescued, AND offered you their phone number to back up my claim. You never took me up on it, probably because actually calling them would have proven you wrong, lol. Face it, Doodles end up in shelters all the time, just like every other breed and mix. The world won't end if you admit it.


Which post?

There are none at the Manitoba Humane society.
None at the Brandon Humaine sociaty.
None are the Portage Animal Welfare Society
None at the Gilmai HS
None at the PAS HS
None at the Parkland HS
None at the Brandon HS


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Okay... What about these 2 "doodles" in craigslists ads near me? I guess they are fake or already have gotten "thousands of phone calls for them"?

http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/pet/1671637966.html
http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/pet/1673730135.html

True, there may not be as many "doodle" pets on craigslist as other breeds, but it still doesn't mean that they are NOT on there. Just like there are shelters that HAVE "doodles" in there, and yes there is


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> Well, if you could find those that are willing. If they have non-profit status, don't they have to print statistics on the number of dogs taken in and pts and all that? Hmmmm...


In theory yes. At least in some places. But no one polices it and there is no standardized reporting process. We have been trying to get figures from Florida Shelters for years. Either they don't keep them or they want to hide them.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Which post?


It was about 5 or 6 months ago, and it's way too late to dig it up now. I'm sure you can find it though if you care to.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> In theory yes. At least in some places. But no one polices it and there is no standardized reporting process. We have been trying to get figures from Florida Shelters for years. Either they don't keep them or they want to hide them.


Well, that sucks! LOL It would be PERFECT for this situation.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Jod-dog said:


> Well, if you could find those that are willing. If they have non-profit status, don't they have to print statistics on the number of dogs taken in and pts and all that? Hmmmm...


statistics are printed. Not always completely accurate. They will use terms like "placeable animals" rather then all dogs all cats etc...

Who deems them placeable or not? Does it depend on breed, health, temperament etc...
Many do not keep track of the breed they are euthanizing. They do have to account for how much euthanasia they use though. It is a federally controlled drug. They could put to sleep 4 small dogs and say they did one large. It is based on weight as to how much drug is used. 

Not all shelters do this but it does happen.



> We have been trying to get figures from Florida Shelters for years. Either they don't keep them or they want to hide them.


 Oh Johnny, I believe that. We went through that with one of the local shelter's here. We fought long and hard and the info that we did get was sketchy at best. It was in conflict with fact that were collected by our group. Numbers can be fudged, we all know that. Good luck with your shelter. It seems so many of them are going "big business" now rather then animal care.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Kasey, again, _what are you trying to prove_? That 'doodles rarely end up without homes? First of all you've been shown time and again that they do and second of all what does it matter? Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers rarely show up in rescue. So what? 

I *think* you are trying to prove that 'doodles never show up homeless because they are the perfect dog for everyone. That's not true. At the very least, most people on this forum will disagree with you. Again, _so what_. Just because a dog is perfect for you doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. Sizzledog (IIRC) has said that Dobermans are the perfect breed for her. Great! Are they the perfect breed for everyone? No! *And it doesn't matter*. That's why there are different breeds of dog.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

Jod-dog said:


> Well, if you could find those that are willing. If they have non-profit status, don't they have to print statistics on the number of dogs taken in and pts and all that? Hmmmm...


Many shelters, and even some rescues, find ways to fudge the numbers so that it doesn't look so bad. Many will say something like they adopted 90% of all adoptable dogs and cats, but won't give a definition for what they deem "adoptable." It could be that they don't deem pit bulls adoptable, for instance, so their numbers wouldn't be included in the number of adoptable dogs/cats euthanized. However, I know the rescue that I volunteer with has to report our numbers to the state of Missouri to keep our license; I assume most other states require this as well.

KaseyT, you clearly have no clue about rescue. Every rescue I know pulls from the kill shelters; it is primarily where we get animals from. Many rescues don't take owner turn-ins. The shelter my rescue works with routinely has purebred dogs (even little ones) and doodle dogs, and many breed rescues come in from all over the area and pull them from the local kill shelter.


----------



## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

Wow, I just searched petfinder for mutts, which are my favorite breed and, guess what? They don't have any!! But the Norfolk County Human Society has a poodle/labrador that came up when I searched "doodle". So, I guess in Massachusetts I can get a doodle from a shelter before I can get a mutt.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> Why do different breeds even exist? Because people are looking for certain traits... the "right" size, or temperament, or coat type.. when choosing a dog, people are often encouraged to narrow down their breed choices based on these traits.*. but that cannot be done with mutts, because there is no predictability in what size, temperament etc they will be.*.


This is true for some types of pairings but not for others.

Alaskan Huskies are mutts, and there is very much predictability in the litters they produce - dependant on what is being looked for. There aer many that breed working mutts that know what they are doing.

Some F1 crossbreeds have been around for 40 years, and are predictable enough that owners go back for them again and again. This is because the breeds going in compliment each other. I know a Cockapoo fan on her fourth. 



CoverTune said:


> I chose to get a Chihuahua because I wanted a tiny dog with minimal grooming requirements and relatively low energy level.
> 
> I think predictability is a perfectly legitimate reason for choosing a purebred.
> 
> And to tie that in to the topic of this post.. I think THAT is what you're paying for in a purebred, and with that said, *I have NO idea why people would fork over big bucks for the designer dogs.*


Some have explained that very well already. Did you miss this post?



Root said:


> That was pretty much the reason why I purchased a shih-poo for $1,000. I wanted an intelligent, non-shedding, hypo-allergenic, companion dog with a temperament suitable for apartment living- ie the pup doesn't bark much and isn't aggressive. The breeders I purchased from have been in the business of specializing in poodle mixes for 29 years and offered a 3 year hereditary guarantee. My pup's dam and sire also have documented purebred ancestry with excellent health records. For me, it was a worthwhile investment.


SOB


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Inga said:


> Very true, but also doubtful they would tell someone over the phone how many dogs they actually euthanize. That is very bad press for them, and they cannot afford to do that. Donations keep shelters open. Bad press =less donations.


Just show me any evidence of any kind that anyone is euthanizing doodles. Anyone to call, email, or write. Anything at all.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have already told you several times. VOLUNTEER at some rescues or shelters. You will see it first hand. Quit playing ignorant. How many people have to tell you they have seen it? Do you wish to sit in on some euthanasias so you understand? 

Also how many postings of Doodles in Shelters do you need before you admit you are wrong? I guess that will NEVER happen because you just don't get it.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

brandiw said:


> KaseyT, you clearly have no clue about rescue. Every rescue I know pulls from the kill shelters; it is primarily where we get animals from. Many rescues don't take owner turn-ins. The shelter my rescue works with routinely has purebred dogs (even little ones) and doodle dogs, and many breed rescues come in from all over the area and pull them from the local kill shelter.


No, I'm rebutting this statement:



> Actually my dear, you embarrass yourself with that statement. I have seen plenty of doodles in shelters. Many of them do not make it out the front door. Reason? health issues in some, to hyper in others. But... It is your story and I already know you will tell it the way that you chose to.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Kasey, again, _what are you trying to prove_? That 'doodles rarely end up without homes? First of all you've been shown time and again that they do and second of all what does it matter? Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers rarely show up in rescue. So what? 

I *think* you are trying to prove that 'doodles never show up homeless because they are the perfect dog for everyone. That's not true. At the very least, most people on this forum will disagree with you. Again, _so what_. Just because a dog is perfect for you doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. Sizzledog (IIRC) has said that Dobermans are the perfect breed for her. Great! Are they the perfect breed for everyone? No! *And it doesn't matter*. That's why there are different breeds of dog.


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## DuckyNDogs (May 20, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> No, I'm rebutting this statement:


Well if all you want to do is argue with one member instead of addressing the countless people who have shown you that there are plenty of doodles in rescues and shelters maybe you can take it to PM


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

KaseyT, I have seen plenty in shelters as well, including a puppy schnauzer/poodle mix I pulled and placed with my mother-in-law. Oh, and guess what, when I pulled him, he was on the euthanasia list. I guess the shelter I work with didn't get the memo that they weren't allowed to euthanize doodle dogs.

Doodle dogs do get put down, just like any other dog that has spent too much time at a kill shelter.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT:
Here is ANOTHER thread from the past where you were proved wrong.
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/71154-does-anyone-else-feel.html


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Well, I can't and frankly, won't, track back far enough to find my original post, but here ya go. Proof that the Winnipeg Humane Society did indeed have 55 Doodles back in December. They did adopt all of them eventually, but it certainly did not happen over night the way you claim. 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/50_dogs_rescued_from_breeder.html


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Inga said:


> I have already told you several times. VOLUNTEER at some rescues or shelters. You will see it first hand. Quit playing ignorant. How many people have to tell you they have seen it? Do you wish to sit in on some euthanasias so you understand?
> 
> Also how many postings of Doodles in Shelters do you need before you admit you are wrong? I guess that will NEVER happen because you just don't get it.


No shelter in Richmond ever sees a doodle, much less euthanizes one, so volunteering wouldn't really help prove your point. 

The only person I know that got a goldendoodle from a rescue had to drive to Michigan to get it.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Hey, I have a poodle/schnauzer mix that I got from a rescue--that was PULLED FROM A KILL SHELTER. Huh, too bad that he doesn't really exist--because doodle dogs don't go to them.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

This thread went over four pages in three hours. It may be a record.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

brandiw said:


> Doodle dogs do get put down, just like any other dog that has spent too much time at a kill shelter.


Not in KaseyT's world they don't. It wouldn't matter if she sat in on the euthanasia, she would find a new way to word her old argument. Sadly, I am not getting any younger, I am sick of arguing with someone who is completely uneducated in the way of rescues. 




> No shelter in Richmond ever sees a doodle, much less euthanizes one, so volunteering wouldn't really help prove your point


You won't find the facts standing in a closet either.



Kasey are you over 16 years old? just curious.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Kasey, again, _what are you trying to prove_? That 'doodles rarely end up without homes? First of all you've been shown time and again that they do and second of all what does it matter? Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers rarely show up in rescue. So what? 

I *think* you are trying to prove that 'doodles never show up homeless because they are the perfect dog for everyone. That's not true. At the very least, most people on this forum will disagree with you. Again, _so what_. Just because a dog is perfect for you doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. Sizzledog (IIRC) has said that Dobermans are the perfect breed for her. Great! Are they the perfect breed for everyone? No! *And it doesn't matter*. That's why there are different breeds of dog.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Well, It's almost midnight here. I have to get up early tomorrow. Unless a mod closes this thread, I will pick up where I left off: Trying to educate the ignorant.

Night ALL!


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> http://raleigh.craigslist.org/search/pet?query=doodle&catAbbreviation=pet
> 
> Raleigh craigslists
> 
> ...


Way to manipulate CL search results Kasey! Their search checks for whole words. So even though there are plenty of Terriers on CL, searching the pets section for "Terri" won't find any of them. Those rules even apply to your magical doodles, so searching for "doodle" will not find a single Labradoodle or Goldendoodle.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I *think* you are trying to prove that 'doodles never show up homeless because they are the perfect dog for everyone. That's not true. At the very least, most people on this forum will disagree with you. Again, _so what_. Just because a dog is perfect for you doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. Sizzledog (IIRC) has said that Dobermans are the perfect breed for her. Great! Are they the perfect breed for everyone? No! *And it doesn't matter*. That's why there are different breeds of dog.


You *think* wrong. I'm am trying, succediing actually, to proved exactly what I said, which is:





> These dogs are expensive because the demand is high. The demand is high because these dogs have good companion dog qualities, the qualities that most people want in their dogs





> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.
> 
> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.


I don't see the words "never" or "perfect" in there. Do you?


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> BTW if your basing this on one Lab from a "stellar" breeder then you don't have enough information to base a decision on whether purebreds are no more healthy than mutts. I can tell you this. After a lifetime of owning well bred dogs, having been involved with the dog community for life, etc. choosing a well bred dog that will live a long healthy life free of genetically passed ailments is not a crapshoot. There are no guarantees in life. But your odds are far better with a well bred dog. At least in breeds that have not been ruined by their breed clubs.


Where did I ever say I was basing this off one lab??? That was just an example and you've taken it out of context. 

I'm basing my opinions on science and common sense.
And as I said before, the problem is that so many breeds already HAVE been ruined. Genetic diversity is practically nonexistent in some breeds, and it's a much bigger problem than most people are willing to recognize. I still say it's a crapshoot, because no one can guarantee the health of any dog, whether mutt or purebred, for its lifetime.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

> These dogs are expensive because the demand is high. The demand is high because these dogs have good companion dog qualities, the qualities that most people want in their dogs


The first part of this is true. Price is a product of demand. The second part is an opinion. They have the qualities you think are good in a companion dog. You can only speak for yourself. Not "most people." 



> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.


Shelter demographics vary wildly based on location. California shelters are overflowing with small, Chihuahua type dogs. The few times I have been in my local shelter, there were very few small, Chihuahua type dogs. How many times does someone post a "What breed is my dog?" thread thinking their dog is a Catahoula and they live in Washington state and people respond saying that's unlikely? Just because _you_ have never seen a 'doodle in your shelter, doesn't mean they don't exsist. Refusing to accept that other people have, doesn't make it cease to be true.



> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.


Here are two, and one person looking for one: http://raleigh.craigslist.org/search/pet?query=labradoodle&catAbbreviation=pet

Actually, no. Very often, designer dog breeds, which is a category 'doodles fall in to, are bought because they are a status symbol. When the status symbol turns out to be a dog that barks and poops, what do you think happens to the dog? Fact is, there are lousy dog owners of every kind of dog. 'doodles aren't an exception.

Your every argument seems to come back to your belief that 'doodles are superior to every other kind of dog. They're not. No breed is better than any other breed. I have breeds of dogs that I like better than others. You, clearly, do as well. *Every* one on this board has their breed preferences. But *no *one else is trying to argue that their breed is intrinsicly better. Just that they're better _for them_.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> This is true for some types of pairings but not for others.
> 
> Alaskan Huskies are mutts, and there is very much predictability in the litters they produce - dependant on what is being looked for. There aer many that breed working mutts that know what they are doing.


Fair enough, I know nothing of Alaskan Huskies, so was unaware that they're a mix.

I think though, that the majority of mixes fit my original comment of having an overall lack of predictability in how they will turn out in comparison to a pure bred.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Are PWD rescues from kill shelters? French bulldog rescues, are they from kill shelters? How about Papillon rescues, are they from kill shelter?


Um yes, actually they do. Even if papillons are not near as common as pit bulls does NOT mean they don't end up in kill shelters. I know lots of rescued papillons from various predicaments, some kill shelters. Just search Pap 911 or PCART and you'll find dogs pulled from kill shelters. 

Now, in my own personal experience from working in a high kill shelter, the shelters around here DO get in doodles. Many more doodles than papillons, actually. In two years working there we got in 0 papillons (and 0 frenchies for that matter) and dozens of doodles as well as dozens more small designer poodle mixes. I personally worked with a 10 week old schnoodle puppy bought from the local pet store and then pretty much immediately given to the shelter. And one of my favorite dogs was a 6 month old goldendoodle named Quincy. She was pulled by a vet tech to foster to keep her from being pts, actually. That shelter has a 75% kill rate and many dogs NEVER make it to petfinder. Searching petfinder is not an accurate way to see what is coming into a shelter.

It is not a monumental feat to find a papillon or a doodle that is unwanted, be that through a shelter, rescue, or CL. I don't see the point claiming that it is. 



MegaMuttMom said:


> I miss Dogman, at least he was funny!


No kidding!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> I think though, that the majority of mixes fit my original comment of having an overall lack of predictability in how they will turn out in comparison to a pure bred.


They may have LESS predictability than a purebred, but I wouldn't say that they lack predictability entirely. My mutt is a border collie mix, so it's really not too surprising that she has the herding instinct. Furthermore, I think her other half is pointer, and she will also point on occasion. Her personality is probably somewhere in the middle, as is probably true for most mixed breeds.

If you really want to maximize predictability, your best bet would be to look into an older dog, either from a breeder or a shelter. If they're past their puppy stage, their personality and temperament are pretty much set. It's not uncommon to hear about someone who ends up being disappointed in their choice because the dog that they picked out as a puppy either can't or won't do what they wanted it to do (herding, agility, other sports, whatever). But people want puppies. *Shrug*


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> This thread went over four pages in three hours. It may be a record.


I was just thinking the same thing... Man, what a read! 

I think the point was made that we all picked our *own* dogs for our *own* reasons. All we want is to do right by them and help them to live long, happy, and healthy lives. 

So that's what we should keep doing, no matter if we have a mixed breed, purebred, designer dog, whatever! Isn't that what this board is about anyways? Giving advice and information to other dog owners/future dog owners? 

I just don't see that point in arguing anymore, I suppose... 

Though I'm sure I will be greeted by another 8 pages on this thread tomorrow morning 

That's all. Bed time


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> The first part of this is true. Price is a product of demand. The second part is an opinion. They have the qualities you think are good in a companion dog. You can only speak for yourself. Not "most people."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Superior to every other kind of dog? I said that? Where? 
Are you unable to accept that people like doodles for the same reason that Inga likes rotties? That there must be something wrong with the motivations of anyone whose breed of choice is a hybrid?

The doodle rage is strong in you my son.


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

CoverTune said:


> Fair enough, I know nothing of Alaskan Huskies, so was unaware that they're a mix.
> 
> *I think though, that the majority of mixes fit my original comment of having an overall lack of predictability in how they will turn out in comparison to a pure bred*.


Your opinion is contrary to my experience with a Shih-poo and Cockapoo breeder. I'd be interested to know which mixes you think are unpredictable. I'd guess mixes from breeds with radically different temperament would produce an unpredictable pup... but it seems like common sense for someone to stay away from those mixes if they're concerned about predictability. 



RaeganW said:


> Actually, no. Very often, designer dog breeds, which is a category 'doodles fall in to, *are bought because they are a status symbol*...When the status symbol turns out to be a dog that barks and poops, what do you think happens to the dog? Fact is, there are lousy dog owners of every kind of dog. 'doodles aren't an exception.


I agree with the point you ultimately made but I think it's odd that people buy designer dogs as a status symbol. That never crossed my mind. One reason to buy a designer dog is to have an increased chance at getting a pup with fewer hereditary problems. Another reason is increasing the chance at getting a pup with traits you desire in two different pure breds.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Who are these people? _That's_ what I'm trying to get at. Other posters have given you evidence that "people" is not every person. You counter with... nothing, basically. Your experience, which is considerably less than the people aligned against you.

I resent the assertation that I have "doodle rage." I actually think I've been quite fair. I don't like 'doodles. I am not a particularly large fan of Chihuahuas, either. I'm not trying to mandate what kinds of dogs people own. What I _do_ have rage for is backyard breeders of any dogs. My dog is a purebred schnauzer from a BYB that also happens to breed Shih-Tzus, Shih-Poos, and Schnoodles. As much as I love him, I am enraged that my dog even exists. I want puppies to be brought into this world thoughtfully and with a purpose. You have crappy breeders making all kinds of dogs. My issue, once again, is not the dogs themselves, but the manner of their production.



Root said:


> I agree with the point you ultimately made but I think it's odd that people buy designer dogs as a status symbol. That never crossed my mind. One reason to buy a designer dog is to have an increased chance at getting a pup with fewer hereditary problems. Another reason is increasing the chance at getting a pup with traits you desire in two different pure breds.


I must confess to a certain assumption on my part. When I say "designer dogs," I do use it in a derogatory manner. My natural assumption is that these are essentially pet store, puppy mill, or backyard breeder dogs. If you start with poor and sickly stock, it's going to be hard to get pups that are anything other than poor and sickly. The same goes for puppies who parents happen to look the same. "Papers aren't a guarantee of quality." I agree with GLM on this one, pups are pretty much a crapshoot. I think there are ways to play the odds, but essentially puppies are like a box of chocolate. You never know what you're going to get. If only litters came with one of those location cheat-sheet things some high-end chocolates come with.


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## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> True, its not an official mismark in Rough Collies, but a full white collar is favored making the half collared dogs less of a value in a litter. These breeders called half-collared pups mismarks, as I've heard many do since then as well. The also commented they "were a waste of Mom's milk".
> 
> Check out the stud dog sites and notice that attractive "full white collar" is often mentioned.
> 
> SOB


please provide a link for this stud dog site. We have collies and I am on plenty of breeders website and never once have seen that remark made about the full white collar


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

nikkiluvsu15 said:


> _Actually_ there was a Papillon at our local shelter, set to be euthanized and I'm pretty sure a rescue pulled her.... So technically, yes! Some Papillons (and I'm sure at least ONE French Bulldogs and PWD have come from a kill shelter) DO come from kill shelters.


I've been all set to pull papillons from high kill rate shelters or pounds before...one was an 8 week old black and white puppy who got adopted (hopefully to someone decent). It happens.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Where did I ever say I was basing this off one lab??? That was just an example and you've taken it out of context.
> 
> I'm basing my opinions on science and common sense.
> And as I said before, the problem is that so many breeds already HAVE been ruined. Genetic diversity is practically nonexistent in some breeds, and it's a much bigger problem than most people are willing to recognize. I still say it's a crapshoot, because no one can guarantee the health of any dog, whether mutt or purebred, for its lifetime.


Where is the science? There is no science or study on mutts and shelter dogs. However you can easily look at the science behind well bred dogs. All you have to do is pick bloodline of well bred dogs and you can trace the science yourself. Right at the OFA website.

And where is the common sense? Mixed breeds are the result casual breedings. Either accidental or ill thought out. This is not something that commonly happens with the better examples of the breed that have been screened for health issues. Genetic issues, especially the skeletal ones, cross right over breed lines. Mutts are a mixed breed version of the same poorly bred dogs bred by BYB's.

If it is a crap shoot, I need to go to Vegas, because I am a lucky son of a gun. I have a plane load of lucky friends that should come along....


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Kacaju, I am surprised!

The current google search is quick and identifies champdogs as the first site.

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=...ull+white+collar&gs_rfai=&fp=6b6487f67d335cdb

Rough Collie Stud Dogs
Find the best rough collie stud dogs at Champdogs - The pedigree dog breeders ... Tri-colour super black *full white collar.* ....(read more), West Midlands. ...
www.champdogs.co.uk › ... › all breeds › rough collie -

Farther down, wellbredpets

Border Collie Stud Dog - Lootah
Find Border Collie stud dogs listed by Stephanie and other local Border Collie ... Color/Markings: Tri-red merle, *classic markings with full white collar*, ...

and then:

Rough Collie for Stud for sale in Kerry: €200 - DoneDeal.ie
26 Mar 2010 ... for sale in Kerry: Rough Collie for Stud 'Royal Jack' IKC reg. ...* full white collar,* white socks, black facial mask and white stripe.
www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/1226586

ABCA Border Collie | Pets | Duncansville PA | Recycler.Com
FOR SALE Border Collie *Male Stud*, Young, Black and White, Nice Blaze,* Full White Collar*, Medium,1 from a litter of 7, Great Temperment, Good with Children ...
www.recycler.com/Details/153207 - United States

Tamaron Collies
When Mary and Paul Wells of Blossom Hill Collies in California decided to ... Moxie is a gorgeous sable merle with a *full white collar *and a HUGE coat! ...
tamaroncollies.com/

Free Classified Ads that Reach 1000s in Pennsylvania For Pets ...
Classified Title: Abca border collie stud for sale ... black and white, nice blaze, *full white collar*, up to date on shots and de-wormed, . ...
www.salespider.com/classifieds_view_ad_new.php?id... - United States 

Preloved | rough collie dogs, puppies for sale UK and Ireland
Stunning Jack Russell Stud Dog. Beeston, Notthinghamshire, UK ... shaded sable rough collie bitch puppy ,4 months and 1 week old ,*full white collar* very ...
www.preloved.co.uk › Pets and Livestock › Dogs -

coarhabeg Rough Collies
It was now 1978 and this time we made the transition to a Rough Collie, ... He was a very striking puppy, deep black with *a huge white collar *and a very good ... All gained their Stud Book Numbers, Rory is the sire of C. Lady of the ...
www.collienet.com/breeders/Coarhabeg_rough_collies.htm 

. . . 

This remark was made by me as an after comment to the point that full white collars are preferred markings in the Rough Collie (or at least obviously were at that time). Is your experience different?

SOB


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

MissyP said:


> Over the years I've watched so many new "breeds" develop.. labradoodles, puggles, maltipoos, shnoodles, bullshitz (ok that ones a joke), etc etc.. and I've been astounded at the PRICES of those dogs..
> Sure some of them turn out cute, have benefits for people with allergies, temperament /health betterment (supposedly), etc... but they're MUTTS..
> So my question~ How do breeders/buyers justify the prices of these dogs And people willing to pay obnoxious prices for a mutt~ its just beyond me.
> 
> ...


The doggie market is one that's still more or less free. Prices are ultimately are determined by what people are willing to pay. Suppliers may try to "justify" prices, but the market invariably overrules. What's to recommend a pure bred? That's what I don't get. Why will people pay a premium for dogs that conform to a contrived standard? They have their reasons, which is no concern to me. I do not know where my doggies got their DNA, and it matters to me not one whit. Maybe not half a whit. I don't really know what a whit is.


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> I must confess to a certain assumption on my part. When I say "designer dogs," I do use it in a derogatory manner. *My natural assumption is that these are essentially pet store, puppy mill, or backyard breeder dogs. If you start with poor and sickly stock, it's going to be hard to get pups that are anything other than poor and sickly.* The same goes for puppies who parents happen to look the same. "Papers aren't a guarantee of quality." I agree with GLM on this one, pups are pretty much a crapshoot. I think there are ways to play the odds, but essentially puppies are like a box of chocolate. You never know what you're going to get. If only litters came with one of those location cheat-sheet things some high-end chocolates come with.


I don't know where the majority of designer dogs come from but I'm aware of at least one reputable and competent breeder of poodle mixes. I absolutely agree that if a breeder starts with poor and sickly stock then their puppies are also likely to be poor and sickly. This point brings the conversation back to the topic of "well bred vs. poorly bred dogs" which is something that involves pure bred and designer dogs alike.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

a link of rescue doodles.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Here's a hundred or so doodle breeders who health test their dogs.
http://www.goldendoodles.com/breeders.htm


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## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Kacaju, I am surprised!
> 
> The current google search is quick and identifies champdogs as the first site.
> 
> ...


My experience is much different.
http://www.colliesonline.com/contents.php
This is were I go to get my collie info. If you look on the right hand side about a 1/4 of the way down you will find a listing of breeders. Not all have websites and I will admit I have not checked out every single website. The ones I have been on do not list having a full white color as a great thnig to have.
I am also in the US and many of those sites you have posted are in the UK so that could also be why.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Here's a hundred or so doodle breeders who health test their dogs.
> http://www.goldendoodles.com/breeders.htm


The threads went fast and I read over some very quickly. But I don't recall anyone saying that no cross breeders test. 

I do recall you making statements that there are no doodles in rescues. When has been proven wrong 20 times over.


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## sukhakuli (Mar 9, 2010)

Kasey, your search terms are incorrect, that is why you are not coming up with any hits. When something is listed on Petfinder or CL for example, they put in "tags" and these tags determine what pulls up when you search. They don't use "doodle" as a tag, so you need to search for poodle or golden retriever to get a hit. On the other hand, "pit" is a tag because of "pit bull" so you will get hits on that. That's why you aren't finding any. 

On to the topic now, we have been searching for a puppy. I want a small velcro type dog that has a sweet loving temperament and is very healthy. I have 3 kids here, and I might as well sign them for therapy now if their puppy develops a liver shunt and dies within a few months. We are also in a higher income bracket, plus we have zero debt aside from our mortgage, so I'm not on a budget for this dog. I have no problem spending a couple thousand on a dog that will give me a greater chance of having a long lived healthy pet with a great temprament. It's worth it to me. I spent $2,000 on m washer and dryer, and it does not give me anywhere near the happiness and companionship that a dog will.  

I admit that I looked at the mixes. I thought a Havanese might be a great fit for us, but I read on one website that up to 30% of them have chondrodysplasia, which sounds like a genetic connective tissue disorder. It causes curved legs, liver problems, eye problems, and an early death. So I looked in a mix that mixes them with another dog in the bichon family that is not known for this disorder. The disorder is thought to be recessive, so mixing it with another breed that does not carry this gene will decrease the chances of your dog exhibiting this trait. In the end, I decided it wasn't the way to go, so we're looking for a purebred now. 

The health problems with small dogs can be scary, and I think that is what is driving people towards mixes. 30% of yorkies and maltese can have liver shunts. Wow! And look at the stats for Cavalier King Charles and heart problems. They are a great breed, and may be a perfect companion dog, but I won't get one for my family because of the possibility of heart problems. I hope they can breed that out. 

It's not that people like me think that a dog will never get sick and die. Of course it can happen. I prefer to lessen the odds if I can, though. It's not the money, it's the heartache, know what I mean? 

So why didn't we choose to rescue? Honestly, because we have small kids and move often rescues have denied us. It doesn't matter what our history with our current dog is, they don't want to adopt small dogs out to people with kids under the age of 10, and add to that the fact that we have moved every 2-3 years the last 10 years, and they don't want to deal with us. A few years ago I wanted to adopt a cat, and after applying to 6 different rescues (and a non refundable application fee, too) they told us no because we had aninfant and moved too much. I don't feel like dealing with it again, to be honest. So we're looking for a good breeder. And I never did get my cat, lol. 

So anyway, that's a perspective from the other side, if you will. People like me, suburban families who make a professional income are just looking for healthy animals that will be a good companion for their kids. In a way, breeders, rescues and so on have shot themselves in the foot. They make it so difficult for families like us to get a dog that many of them bypass the "system" entirely and just grab a cute puppy from a pet store. I am trying to do the right thing and go through a good breeder, but they are few and far between, they don't have litters constantly, and there is no advertising. People on forums don't want to even mention specific breeders. The whole system is so hush hush and confusing.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The threads went fast and I read over some very quickly. But I don't recall anyone saying that no cross breeders test.
> 
> I do recall you making statements that there are no doodles in rescues. When has been proven wrong 20 times over.


I will donate $10,000 to you favorite rescue or shelter if you show me a statement I made implying there are "*no* doodles in rescues"


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> *If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.
> 
> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.
> 
> For those of you about to post "my local shelter is full of doodles", I know you are fibbing and can probably prove it, so save yourself the embarrassment.*



Make the check out to NAIA Trust. I will send Patti an email and let her know you are going to be sending the check. You going to have it in the mail tomorrow I presume.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

sukhakuli said:


> Kasey, your search terms are incorrect, that is why you are not coming up with any hits. When something is listed on Petfinder or CL for example, they put in "tags" and these tags determine what pulls up when you search. They don't use "doodle" as a tag, so you need to search for poodle or golden retriever to get a hit. On the other hand, "pit" is a tag because of "pit bull" so you will get hits on that. That's why you aren't finding any.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> Kacaju, I am surprised!
> 
> The current google search is quick and identifies champdogs as the first site.
> 
> ...


Fyi, a couple of those are border collies. Many of those are not what I'd refer to as good breeders either. Also, it doesn't come across as a 'huge white collar' is even preferred. Just sounds like people describing their stud's markings.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Make the check out to NAIA Trust. I will send Patti an email and let her know you are going to be sending the check. You going to have it in the mail tomorrow I presume.



Just to refresh your memory:



> I do recall you making statements that there are *no doodles in rescues*. When has been proven wrong 20 times over.


Do you know what the word "no" as in "none" means? Do you see the word "no" in any of my quotes?



> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very *uncommon in shelters *and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.
> 
> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very *unlikely* to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.
> 
> For those of you about to post "my local shelter is full of doodles", I know you are fibbing and can probably prove it, so save yourself the embarrassment.


Do you know the difference between "no doodles in rescues" and "uncommon in shelters".

Did I even mention_ rescues _for that matter?


Here are some dictionary entries to help you out?

none:   
–pronoun

2.not any, as of something indicated: None of the pie is left. That is none of your business. 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/none

un·com·mon   
–adjective,-er, -est. 
1.not common; unusual; rare: an uncommon word. 

Are we clear on this now?


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

> Dallas Criags List - Title seach only
> "lab" 325 hits (no doodles)
> "Labrador" 29 hits (no doodles)
> "pit bull" 68 hits
> ...


You just proved yourself wrong. YOU found "doodles" in a shelter! GO figure...they do end up in shelters!



> The doodle rage is strong in you my son.


And the doodle stupidity is strong in you. You can't accept that you are wrong. NO ONE CARES if you spend $6 million on a "doodle" mutt. Go for it. The only thing that we are trying to prove to you is that *THEY DO EXIST IN SHELTERS.*


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Fyi, a couple of those are border collies. Many of those are not what I'd refer to as good breeders either. Also, it doesn't come across as a 'huge white collar' is even preferred. Just sounds like people describing their stud's markings.


Laurelin, are you aware that 40 years ago blazes were preferred, where as now they have fallen out of fashion?

You mentioned in post #45 Sheltie breeders also preferred white collars. Are we then just discussing semantics here?

The point was that breeders WERE culling (killing) for markings and appearance and keeping more "markettable" pups. It IS the marketting of dogs and breeds, primarily by appearance factors, and the system that continues and promotes it, that rubs me wrong and always will . . . wrong prioritization me thinks.

I did not suggest that the breeders that did this were high, medium or low calibre, and what type they were is irrelevent to the point - although one WAS a judge and the pup we got had a Champion sire. In those days I don't believe anyone was health testing. That WAS my experience, and I KNOW that it continued, not only in the Rough Collie breed, but in others.

Are you suggesting I erase that experience or not speak of it?

SOB


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## sukhakuli (Mar 9, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> sukhakuli said:
> 
> 
> > Kasey, your search terms are incorrect, that is why you are not coming up with any hits. When something is listed on Petfinder or CL for example, they put in "tags" and these tags determine what pulls up when you search. They don't use "doodle" as a tag, so you need to search for poodle or golden retriever to get a hit. On the other hand, "pit" is a tag because of "pit bull" so you will get hits on that. That's why you aren't finding any.
> ...


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> I will donate $10,000 to you favorite rescue or shelter if you show me a statement I made implying there are "*no* doodles in rescues"





Merriam-Webster said:


> Main Entry: im·ply
> Pronunciation: \im-ˈplī\
> Function: transitive verb
> Inflected Form(s): im·plied; im·ply·ing
> ...





KaseyT said:


> If this were true the shelters would be full of doodles, and they're not. There are very uncommon in shelters and the ones that do show up get adopted almost immediately. Is is very difficult to get a doodle from a shelter.
> 
> The fact is that people who buy doodles are very unlikely to re-home their dogs. Just try to get one on craigslist.
> 
> For those of you about to post "my local shelter is full of doodles", I know you are fibbing and can probably prove it, so save yourself the embarrassment.





KaseyT said:


> No shelter in Richmond ever sees a doodle, much less euthanizes one, so volunteering wouldn't really help prove your point.


You said "imply". Your first quote meets definitions 3 and 4 easily. "Very rare in shelters" and "get adopted almost immediately" ==> "no doodles in rescues". That's easy. Your second quote is more than an implication, though I'm sure you''ll have an excuse. My preferred rescue is Western Border Collie Rescue.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> Laurelin, are you aware that 40 years ago blazes were preferred, where as now they have fallen out of fashion?
> 
> You mentioned in post #45 Sheltie breeders also preferred white collars. Are we then just discussing semantics here?


Yes and yes I did say that. I am saying some sheltie breeders do like certain markings but the markings really aren't placed on a high priority like you seem to claim. The same breeder went on to keep a really non flashy dog out of the litter and finish her. 



> The point was that breeders WERE culling (killing) for markings and appearance and keeping more "markettable" pups. It IS the marketting of dogs and breeds, primarily by appearance factors, that rubs me wrong and always will . . . wrong prioritization me thinks.


Okay, some breeders were culling based on a marking, but there is no proof that all or even most were or more importantly are still today. That is my point... to say that because a marking is preferable other puppies were killed probably happens and still happens on occasion but saying it like it is the norm I don't agree with. Your posts come off as though most show breeders kill puppies that are 'ugly'.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> You just proved yourself wrong. YOU found "doodles" in a shelter! GO figure...they do end up in shelters!


Actually thats a listing of dogs on craigslist, not shelters.


Jod-dog said:


> And the doodle stupidity is strong in you. You can't accept that you are wrong. NO ONE CARES if you spend $6 million on a "doodle" mutt. Go for it. The only thing that we are trying to prove to you is that *THEY DO EXIST IN SHELTERS.*


Gee, and I though I was the one being rude.

You don't need to prove they do exist in shelters. I never said they didn't. I said they were uncommon is shelters and then I provided ample evidence of that.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Okay, some breeders were culling based on a marking, but there is no proof that all or even most were or more importantly are still today. That is my point... to say that because a marking is preferable other puppies were killed probably happens and still happens on occasion but saying it like it is the norm I don't agree with. Your posts come off as though most show breeders kill puppies that are 'ugly'.


Over sensitivity, then I would suggest. My posts were very clear this was a long ago experience and did not suggest anything about the what the "norm" or "most" do today. 

I understand your point, that it is uncommon today, but the fact that it happened at all is enough for me, especially because the attitude that prompted it to happen, valueing one dog more than another because of fine phenotypic qualities or differences, is still very much promoted.

SOB


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Actually thats a listing of dogs on craigslist, not shelters.
> 
> Gee, and I though I was the one being rude.
> 
> You don't need to proved they do exist in shelters. I never said they didn't. I said they were uncommon is shelters and then I proved it.





> Originally Posted by KaseyT
> No shelter in Richmond ever sees a doodle, much less euthanizes one, so volunteering wouldn't really help prove your point.


messagetooshort


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> Over sensitivity, then I would suggest. My posts were very clear this was a long ago experience and did not suggest anything about the what the "norm" or "most" do today.
> 
> The fact that it happens at all is enough for me.
> 
> SOB


I simply don't want people to walk away with the wrong idea as it seemed some people were doing. Also, culling based on aesthetics was and has never been simply in show circles. In Koolies for example (a working breed) many breeders were wrongly under the impression that in order for a dog to be pure it had to be merle. They would cull the high white pups and the solids. I have spoken to a koolie breeder that said this sometimes still happens. This also happens in show shelties on occasion. People purposefully breed merle x merle then cull. Either way and for whatever reason, it's disgusting.

Personally I define someone as a good or bad breeder independently of whether they show or not. The fact that some breeders in a certain category are involved in morally questionable practices doesn't reflect on the ones that do not.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Either way and for whatever reason, it's disgusting..


Yup. Exactly.



Laurelin said:


> Personally I define someone as a good or bad breeder independently of whether they show or not. The fact that some breeders in a certain category are involved in morally questionable practices doesn't reflect on the ones that do not.


If you read back you will see this is a very similar definition to mine. I personally don't support - with my cash - those involved in showing dogs because I don't have any appreciation for their priorities. That doesn't mean I think they are "bad" breeders . . . . it just means I would choose to do it differently and I will support those that do.

I have no inclination or need to remove other's choices of supporting whatever type of breeding they believe in. I wish others would do the same, but regularly threads crop up about those that choose crossbreeds or mutts, and regularly *blanket* and often offensive assertions are typed about those that breed them . . . . 

It is a shame. 

SOB


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Actually thats a listing of dogs on craigslist, not shelters.
> 
> Gee, and I though I was the one being rude.
> 
> You don't need to prove they do exist in shelters. I never said they didn't. I said they were uncommon is shelters and then I provided ample evidence of that.


And we provided more than ample proof that they ARE common in shelters and rescues.

I think you need to just sit down and be quiet. You have taken this thread off into a rant about how "right" you THINK you are. It has nothing to do with the OP and you are verbally abusing everyone because you THINK that you know what you are talking about. We have proved you wrong more than you have "proved" yourself "right".


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> Yup. Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, glad we're back on the same page!


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## sukhakuli (Mar 9, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> Yup. Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How would you choose a good breeder? This is a serious question, as I am looking for a good breeder for our next pet. I have read over and over that you should look for breeders who show (and do health testing), but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with show breeders in some ways. For one, they often offer up their retired dogs to new homes. That bothers me. A lot. Second, I'm looking for a pet, I could care less what the dog looks like, I just want a pet that is healthy, and has a good temperament. So, where do I look for a good breeder? I've gone to the breed clubs, but only about a 1/3 of the breeders I have contacted get back to me. And so far all I hear is "We are not planning any litters at this time." The process is very frustrating.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Too much rudeness on both sides, here, and nothing being accomplised.


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