# Editor's Choice on DogFoodAdvisor



## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

Rant. 

Off topic. But having to pay for the whole editors choice section was a low blow. I've recommended this site to many many people. Visited multiple times a day waiting for the release of this section just to find out it's all about money. Granted, I know they worked hard on this, but a simple heads up saying its not going to be free would have gone a long way. Kinda disappointed here.


----------



## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

That site is written by a random dentist. Not sure why he's considered an authority on dog food in the first place?


----------



## BennySimpson (Mar 18, 2014)

I heard that Merrick made the list but no mention the company is affiliated with Tejas Rendering and that the CEO has publicly advocated the use of downed animals in pet food. He also doesn't mention that Merrick discloses very little information and that the grain free foods don't appear to be AAFCO compliant.

He also, I understand, candy-coated the review of Champion. He states they have had one recall but that is a lie. He also missed the fact that Champion is controlled by Bedford Capital not the founder, which he implies still owns and runs the company. 

Freshpet is on the list, the company that sells bologna for dogs. That stuff is complete garbage.

He also makes a big deal about disclosure, I guess to him over the phone. Not one of the companies in the list has filed a signed Pledge with TruthAboutPetfood about the countries where ingredients come from. 

I heard its a joke.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Mr. V said:


> That site is written by a random dentist. Not sure why he's considered an authority on dog food in the first place?


I find it funny how people on this forum who disagree with them always point out that he is a dentist. Being a dentist doesn't preclude him from researching dog food. If you're not a canine nutritionist (and let's be honest, about zero people on this forum, or the internet generally, are), why should someone take your advice over his?


----------



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I find it funny how people on this forum who disagree with them always point out that he is a dentist. Being a dentist doesn't preclude him from researching dog food. If you're not a canine nutritionist (and let's be honest, about zero people on this forum, or the internet generally, are), why should someone take your advice over his?


BECAUSE OF REASONS!!!111

I only use that site to find quick lists of ingredients.


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

I agree that there should have been a forewarning but the list is still there for 5 star and 4 star foods so the ingredient lists are still there.

I also agree with gingerkid about his ability or anyone's ability to judge food. Most of us here will give advice on dog food and except for a few individuals that seem to purposely learn about dog food we mostly know little about the subject.

Like all subjects when there is a great deveation in opinions then there is no hard fact of what is right. The best is Purina, Orijen, Annamaet or all the others that are recommended. If your dog does well on something then in reality that is the best.

Yes, I have used DFA for finding foods and used info from people on this site and out of all the foods I have tried on Zoey she seems to do best on Annamaet. All the foods that I have tried were 4 or 5 star foods on DFA and mentioned here regularly so its not like she went from Beneful to Annamaet.


----------



## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

He deleted my last comment replying to his in regards to having to pay for the section. I said that it was pretty good money making tactics reeling people in, hyping up the section, get em hooked only to charge them in the end. People so desperate to see what foods were on his list that they'd pay money in anticipation. Hmmm. Maybe I'm right?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

This seems relevant: http://eileenanddogs.com/2014/03/28/dog-food-logic-linda-case-book-review/

I just started reading this, myself.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> This seems relevant: http://eileenanddogs.com/2014/03/28/dog-food-logic-linda-case-book-review/
> 
> I just started reading this, myself.


Please share your thoughts on Case's book. It's on my ever growing to-read list.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

sassafras said:


> This seems relevant: http://eileenanddogs.com/2014/03/28/dog-food-logic-linda-case-book-review/
> 
> I just started reading this, myself.


Thanks for sharing! Looks like a great resource.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BennySimpson said:


> I heard that Merrick made the list but no mention the company is affiliated with Tejas Rendering and that the CEO has publicly advocated the use of downed animals in pet food. He also doesn't mention that Merrick discloses very little information and that the grain free foods don't appear to be AAFCO compliant.
> 
> He also, I understand, candy-coated the review of Champion. He states they have had one recall but that is a lie. He also missed the fact that Champion is controlled by Bedford Capital not the founder, which he implies still owns and runs the company.
> 
> ...


I feed Merrick and I have never been happier with it. You know its rendered and made in Lubbock, right? Most commercial dog foods use "downed animals" in their foods, a "downed animal" could be sick or just not otherwise fit for human consumption, a "downed animal" could mean a lot of things. 

what I CARE about is if the meat / protein / fat sources are named and they are, there is no synthetic vita K, and it is certainly better then the crap that Purina, Hills, or any of the other "usual suspects" turn out.

But as far as paying for a list of foods I should be feeding, no thanks, not from any site. I do my own research and learn what makes a dog food good and what doesn't, and how to read dog food labels.


----------



## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

gingerkid said:


> I find it funny how people on this forum who disagree with them always point out that he is a dentist. Being a dentist doesn't preclude him from researching dog food. If you're not a canine nutritionist (and let's be honest, about zero people on this forum, or the internet generally, are), why should someone take your advice over his?


Please point out where I said anyone should take my advice on dog food - ill wait.

I'm not the one creating a website as a self proclaimed "authority" on dog food - he is. What training has this person had to make him an authority?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Mr. V said:


> Please point out where I said anyone should take my advice on dog food - ill wait.
> 
> I'm not the one creating a website as a self proclaimed "authority" on dog food - he is. What training has this person had to make him an authority?


No he doesn't, he says he gets his info from informative sources and experts, no where on the site does he claim that he is an expert. he just says that it is an interest to him. 

Let's face it, his site does have a lot of useful information on dog food and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that feeding TOTW is likely a better decision than feeding purina.

I don't see what the heck the fact that is isn't a canine nutritionist has to do with it, I like the rtuth about pet food site too, but the person who runs it has gotten to big for their britches IMO and wants to make you pay for half the info on their site, so DFA it is for me. 

Would you rather a Vet wrote the site? you know vets know about as much about canine nutrition as you and I do, right? maybe less.


----------



## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No he doesn't, he says he gets his info from informative sources and experts, no where on the site does he claim that he is an expert. he just says that it is an interest to him.


He doesn't claim to be an authority? From his own hand: "Now, after publishing more than 800 dog food reviews representing some 3,500 commercial products, I’m considered an authority on reading and interpreting pet food labels."



> Let's face it, his site does have a lot of useful information on dog food


This I can get on board with. I would prefer he didn't rate them or add in his opinions when discussing the ingredients. I think the breakdown is great when he says what each ingredient is but loses me when he adds opinion to it. I don't find the rating to be helpful and is likely misleading to a lot of owners - there are countless posts on this forum of people saying someone should only look at 4 or 5 star foods - and just as many people commenting on how their dog did terrible on them and is much better with the 2 or 3 star foods. 



> TOTW is likely a better decision than feeding purina.


Except when it's being recalled for Salmonella, right? Plenty of people report great success with Purina (don't personally feed it but wouldn't rule it out) and plenty report failure on TOTW (and vice versa)



> Would you rather a Vet wrote the site? you know vets know about as much about canine nutrition as you and I do, right? maybe less.


Guess that depends on the vet, doesn't it? I guess a nutrition specialist wouldn't do this b/c they actaully want to get paid for all of that advanced training. Perhaps anybody worth believing on this stuff isn't just going to do it for free? I'm obviously a skeptical person and try not to swallow everything I read on the net - that includes the tired, overused comment that all vets are clueless on nutrition. Maybe some are - dunno? I wouldn't know anything about it.


----------



## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

I've lost all respect for that guy. Guess he's not making enough money as dentist.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PureMutt said:


> I've lost all respect for that guy. Guess he's not making enough money as dentist.


Meh, I will still use and recommend l his site as a reference to those looking to compare dog foods.


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Let's face it, his site does have a lot of useful information on dog food and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that feeding TOTW is likely a better decision than feeding purina.


Except that TOTW has probably had more problems with recalls, etc, than Purina in the span of time they've been in existence (about 8 decades, compared to... what, maybe 10yrs?)

That's what really gets me is that so many will pass or excuse one companies problems but not another. Maybe Purina's got some crummy foods, too, and yep, maybe their ingredient list doesn't 'look' as good but most of the formulas are more nutritionally sound than most TOTW formulas. Does TOTW do feeding trials, have they done scientific research for decades, do they have a vet or nutritionist on staff, what is their quality control like? etc etc I'd be curious to know all of these questions. When I asked a few years ago, they couldn't answer me.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Except that TOTW has probably had more problems with recalls, etc, than Purina in the span of time they've been in existence (about 8 decades, compared to... what, maybe 10yrs?)
> 
> That's what really gets me is that so many will pass or excuse one companies problems but not another. Maybe Purina's got some crummy foods, too, and yep, maybe their ingredient list doesn't 'look' as good but most of the formulas are more nutritionally sound than most TOTW formulas. Does TOTW do feeding trials, have they done scientific research for decades, do they have a vet or nutritionist on staff, what is their quality control like? etc etc I'd be curious to know all of these questions. When I asked a few years ago, they couldn't answer me.


Also true, whose proves that there is no perfect food for every dog ... For me, if I the only foods on the market were TOTW and Purina's line of products I would have to go with TOTW because they are grain free and I have a dog with allergies to grains (and not all "grain free" foods are true my grain free).

But luckily thereafter many many choices so we don't have to make that choice


----------



## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Meh, I will still use and recommend l his site as a reference to those looking to compare dog foods.


I'll still go to the site as a reference but, he deleted several replies that validated my opinion about his money making scheme.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PureMutt said:


> I'll still go to the site as a reference but, he deleted several replies that validated my opinion about his money making scheme.


Well ... There is always Facebook


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

He's just a dude with opinions about dog food and a web site. Like-minded individuals will find value in his opinions, others won't, and everyone's dogs will get fed. It's a nice place to find a lot of information in one place to compare calorie content, look for foods with specific ingredients, or compare stuff like different levels of protein or whatever you're interested in but I don't give it much more credence than that.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Except that TOTW has probably had more problems with recalls, etc, than Purina in the span of time they've been in existence (about 8 decades, compared to... what, maybe 10yrs?)
> 
> That's what really gets me is that so many will pass or excuse one companies problems but not another. Maybe Purina's got some crummy foods, too, and yep, maybe their ingredient list doesn't 'look' as good but most of the formulas are more nutritionally sound than most TOTW formulas. Does TOTW do feeding trials, have they done scientific research for decades, do they have a vet or nutritionist on staff, what is their quality control like? etc etc I'd be curious to know all of these questions. When I asked a few years ago, they couldn't answer me.


I have LESS respect for a company that does have a vet and nutritionist on staff, that comes up with foods like Beneful and Be Happy . I would hope a vet and nutritionist would know better---I can't imagine either would say that feeding a dog sugar on a daily basis is good, or feeding an obligate carnivore a food that doesn't have meat until the 4th ingredient. So either they don't listen to their vet and nutritionist, or they pay that vet and nutritionist to say what they want them to say :/.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I have LESS respect for a company that does have a vet and nutritionist on staff, that comes up with foods like Beneful and Be Happy . I would hope a vet and nutritionist would know better---I can't imagine either would say that feeding a dog sugar on a daily basis is good, or feeding an obligate carnivore a food that doesn't have meat until the 4th ingredient. So either they don't listen to their vet and nutritionist, or they pay that vet and nutritionist to say what they want them to say :/.


This.

I know it's "cheaper" for companies to make junk over using human grade ingredients. That being said, I believe there IS a standard on "junk", there is what humans consider "junk" but still has a lot of nutritional value to a dog ... Then there is the stuff that is just "junk" anyway you look at it.I for one would rather feed something that is filled with nutritional "junk" then just simple "junk". 

Also, yes there are dogs who "survive" on foods like Purina, IAMS, SD and even junky foods like Beneful and Ol' Roy. Just like some people can eat fast food every day and be ok, but that doesn't make it nutritionally sound and it shouldn't be passed off as such.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

ii kind of have to agree, a lot of people hate on royal canin but i feed it to roxie and i like it bbetter than any food ive fed yet. its not cheap though so its only about a third of her diet but yeah.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kayota said:


> ii kind of have to agree, a lot of people hate on royal canin but i feed it to roxie and i like it bbetter than any food ive fed yet. its not cheap though so its only about a third of her diet but yeah.


People don't like royal canin I guess because it's owned by a large corporation (I don't know of any recalls because it's not a food I have researched) and I to think their "breed specific" foods are kind of baloney but their grain free line is ok.

I also kind of like Innova and I do like EVO on paper but it has a reputation for stomach upset and I have a dude with a fickle tummy and I like to avoid blowouts lol. 

I also like some of BB's formulas but I wouldn't feed it unless I had no other option. Heck there are people who tell me I am endangerin my dogs for feeding Merrick, but you know what? The ingredients make sense to me and the dogs ... Even the JRT Mr. Allergies doesn't have issues with it


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i actually see the logic behind the breed specific foods because of the different health problems that breeds carry. for instance i feed chihuahua and it has smaller kibbles and is formulated to help prevent tartar and stimulate finicky appetites, help prevent heart problems and strengthen the joint among other things. ttooth heart, joint, and appetite issues are common in chis and many of them are very small, so the things they did with this formula make sense.


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Kayota said:


> i actually see the logic behind the breed specific foods because of the different health problems that breeds carry. for instance i feed chihuahua and it has smaller kibbles and is formulated to help prevent tartar and stimulate finicky appetites, help prevent heart problems and strengthen the joint among other things. ttooth heart, joint, and appetite issues are common in chis and many of them are very small, so the things they did with this formula make sense.


So, what ingredients exactly help prevent tartar? Dry food doesn't do it any more than granola prevents tarter on our teeth. What ingredients helps a finicky dog? Heart problems? As far as joint issues, my understanding is that most of the glucosamine etc that is added is cooked out by the time the food is finished, thats why it's recommended to add joint supplements, not rely on the food.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> So, what ingredients exactly help prevent tartar? Dry food doesn't do it any more than granola prevents tarter on our teeth. What ingredients helps a finicky dog? Heart problems? As far as joint issues, my understanding is that most of the glucosamine etc that is added is cooked out by the time the food is finished, thats why it's recommended to add joint supplements, not rely on the food.


This. (Tooshort)


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> So, what ingredients exactly help prevent tartar? Dry food doesn't do it any more than granola prevents tarter on our teeth. What ingredients helps a finicky dog? Heart problems? As far as joint issues, my understanding is that most of the glucosamine etc that is added is cooked out by the time the food is finished, thats why it's recommended to add joint supplements, not rely on the food.


I fed a small 2.5lb bag of the Yorkie 28 RC formula and have never seen Jackson eat a food so enthusiastically (well besides recently with Farmina Boar). So to be honest, I have no idea what makes it so tasty, but almost EVERY dog I've ever seen try it, loooovess it. 

As far as teeth cleaning, I am a believer that nothing is better than brushing daily, but I do think certain chews/kibbles/food/sprays/etc will HELP. RC does a lot of research in their products, so they can't really just spout off that claim without backing it up. It's not anywhere near a 100% tarter reduction rate. But here's one of their oral RX foods: 

Active components in the diet trap the calcium in saliva, and help prevent it from being deposited on the teeth in the form of tartar. *Result: a 59% reduction in tartar formation (measured on the most vulnerable teeth, compared to a control food not containing the active components - Royal Canin study, 2005. Proven effectiveness after 28 days of exclusive use of ORAL SENSITIVE 30). 

And I do have to say that 3 weeks or so that Jackson was on RC, I did notice a *slight* reduction in tarter buildup, and less of a stinky mouth if I didn't brush for a few days.

And honestly, I used to think the breed specific foods were just a big scam. And who knows maybe they are. But I don't care what anyone says, a lot of breeds do have VERY different nutrition needs. Yorkies and Schnauzers are prone to pancreatitis, GSDs often have sensitive systems, giant breeds need very careful calcium/phosphorus levels, Corgis and some other herding breeds can sometimes be known as 'easy keepers', due to their upbringing on farms. Lots of breeds are very different and after years of humans manipulating them and changing things around, it's not hard to believe they each may need different diets (to a point).

I have to say, I've really become a Royal Canin fan *gasp* and my only wish is that they made more meat sources an option. Almost all their foods are chicken-based, and Jackson tends to get softer poo with chicken. He also in general seems to do better on grain-free or limited grains, and keeps a good weight better. Grain inclusive foods tend to make him a bit chubbier IMO. So I do wish they had more options for dogs who may need them. Because their research and quality control is under check.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Some companies actually put in a chemical that is useful to reduce tartar, Sodium Hexametaphosphate. Yes, some kibbles actually have toothpaste ingredients right in the kibble! Eukanuba does in its Chihuahua formula, RC has it as well.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

what kathy and jacksonsmom said. ill try to pull up more info for you when im on a computer.


----------



## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

So much for ranting about DFA. Lol. You guys seemed to have moved on a different direction.


----------



## HillyBilly (Jun 11, 2013)

Back to original topic, I clicked on DFA Editor's Choice link and it took me to a video followed a time clock counting down 30 minutes to get it for $5 less per year. YES, it is a yearly subscription, with sales pressure to join up right then. I didn't fall for the salesmanship, no way am I giving my credit card number him.


----------



## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm not surprised they'd try to cash in on something when it's popular, isn't that what most people do? ;p Get a little following and then try and make some chaching off it.
I like the RC for the Chihuahua, I don't think it's bullshit. Breeds differ so much that it only makes sense different food would be good for different bodies and different health issues. 
I was always worried about having to cut up kibbles to keep my Chi from choking. Even the 'puppy food for small breeds' was hard for him to eat. I'm thankful for the RC Chihuahua Puppy food.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I put warm water in my dogs food because I have a dog who has some facial nerve damage from being snake bit and two others who eat so fast they choke :/. I'd rather do that so I can feed something that the kibble a may be bigger but is more suitable nutritionally


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

right, i forgot about this thread. here we go. i'm going to look up each ingredient and list it here with its uses as i go. Skipping over the first few because they're just food ingredients. also skipping ones that are just preservatives, typical nutritional additives or the like.

Fish oil- coat, of course. I've seen a number of Chis with coat issues. Also Omega 3 fatty acids are good for the heart I believe. Apparently boosts the immune system as well, another thing delicate Chihuahuas need.
Calcium carbonate- well, calcium. important to all breeds.
Potassium chloride- prevents potassium deficiency by providing potassium.
Sodium silico aluminate- helps with stomach issues
DL Methionine- prevents urinary stones
fructooligosaccharides- boosts intestinal flora
Biotin- boosts coat and nervous system
choline chloride- vitamin builds cell membranes
Marigold Extract- Flavor enhancing
glucosamine hydrochloride- Joints, prevents arthritis
Tea- presumably to calm them, couldn't find much info about its use in dog food but a lot of chihuahuas are nervy
chondroitin sulfate- same use as glucosamine
Rosemary extract- flavor enhancement

edit: i just looked over RC's choices for breed specific foods and noticed that most if not all the breeds they make foods for are known for breed specific health problems. they do make rx foods and i firmly believe they know what they are doing with these breed specific foods. even the kibble shapes are tailor made for each breed--the brachycephalic dogs have kibbles that are easier to pick up, for instance. I can't imagine why they would waste time and money to make all these kibbles with different nutrients and shapes if they weren't on to something.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, but which of those aren't in their other formulas? That's what I don't quite understand about the breed-specific foods, because all the ingredient lists look about the same . They'll put something different on the bag (for Labs--"good for joint health" but all their foods have that ingredient). I guess the concept makes some sense but the reality doesn't seem to measure up.

I agree that small breeds usually do better with smaller kibble size so that makes sense. And making it yummier for some breeds is nice. Maybe they shouldn't do breed specific but say something like "for small picky dogs" or "for dogs prone to gassiness" (this is what the EBD one claims to help with) or stuff like that. 

Of course it's all about what YOUR dog does best on so it's not an attack on the food. It just seems like a lot of their marketing claims about being breed specific don't make a lot of sense.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> Some companies actually put in a chemical that is useful to reduce tartar, Sodium Hexametaphosphate. Yes, some kibbles actually have toothpaste ingredients right in the kibble! Eukanuba does in its Chihuahua formula, RC has it as well.


And it's the reason you aren't supposed to swallow toothpaste, thsnks but no thanks ... I will just give them natural bones to clean their teeth.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> And it's the reason you aren't supposed to swallow toothpaste, thsnks but no thanks ... I will just give them natural bones to clean their teeth.


Fluoride is why, not that... lol


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

That and brushing their teeth, I have a couple of dogs who don't really chew enough to clean their teeth (my parents two older dogs) the rest keep there's pretty clean.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

roxie wont let me brush her teeth so i use bones and teeth cleaning treats.. milkbone came out with some super fancy treats that seem to have a lot of research put into them. there was a study done that found they were as effective as brushing daily and i have noticed a reduction in buildup.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kayota said:


> Fluoride is why, not that... lol


If it was just the Fluoride then they wouldn't put fluoride in public water supplies. Fluoride is a mineral is not dangerous in itself.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> If it was just the Fluoride then they wouldn't put fluoride in public water supplies. Fluoride is a mineral is not dangerous in itself.


In the concentration in drinking water, no. In the concentration in toothpaste, heck yes it is.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

its a fluoride overdose youre worrying about witn toothpaste. thats why dog toothpaste doesnt have it.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Just that the Hexasodium metaphosphate is useful for tooth care and put into kibble. Kibble definitely isn't good for teeth on its own.

The stuff isn't very toxic, 6 grams per kilogram for a rat causes acute problems. Max would have to eat 90 grams of the stuff where he might eat all of 150 grams of kibble to get in his usual 600 calories a day. Not sure I would be comfortable feeding a food with it long term or not though. Another case where it would be nice if the company told us how much of a given substance is in the food.
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924995

Mercola has a different view on it though.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/03/29/pet-dental-care.aspx

Here is more detailed information.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11766135


----------



## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

Even with an added ingredient that's supposed to help keep teeth clean, it wouldn't help my Chihuahua in the least bit. She, like most dogs, hardly chews her food. One crunch and down the hatch. Nothing added to the kibble would help considering it's just swallowed...

I'll stick to giving healthy chews to keep her teeth in tip top shape. I also use PetzLife gel. My Chi is 6.5 years old and has some of the best teeth I've seen in a dog. I don't think any kibble alone would have kept her teeth this way.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

mine is about 7.. i definitely do use other things, i never said you should rely on kibble alone.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have a dog who hates his teeth bring brushed and two who hate their nails done. But we get it done, because it's just someething we have to do. We have tried OC and all that with them both and there is nothing I can do to make it a positive experience, we just get it done. 

There are time I have to do things they just plain don't like for their own good.


----------

