# I'm Sorry ...



## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

I know that there are many dog lovers here, and that I am going to be vilified and hated. 

I'm going to try to find another home for my Miniature Schnauzer pup.

At this exact moment, I'm at my mother's, writing this sitting at the kitchen table. I've been here for about two hours, and in that time, the puppy has not stopped whining for attention. If I get up to go and make a cup of tea, he sits at my feet, looking up at me. If I open the door to let him play in the garden, he goes out but as soon as I close the door (as I have to, because of the cold weather at the moment), he stands outside the door, whining to get in. When I let him back in, he stands at the door whining to get out. He just refuses to sit or lie down quietly. He is constantly standing, or wandering around the room whining plaintively to himself.

Since my last post, I have followed the advice given, and we now have extended walks every day. At home, I play with him, I chase him around the room with his toy, I roll him onto his back and tickle him. 

I anticipated that a puppy would need attention, and believe me: he gets attention. But I was not expecting the constant whoring for attention. Constant, constant, constant. It never stops. It is getting to me, and I am starting to resent him for it.

Could someone please (and I really mean _please_!!) tell me if he will grow out of this? If he will, then fine. But if this is going to be the same story for the next fifteen years, then I'm really sorry, but I can't take it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

How old is this puppy right now? Whining is the hardest thing to stop a dog from doing (or redirecting a dog from). Do you have a crate for your puppy? Do you have a Kong you can fill with fat free cottage cheese and freeze and give to him in his crate?

There are times when your puppy needs to be separate from you and needs to learn he can be and it will be OK. The amount of time separate is dependent on the age of the dog. If your puppy is over 5 months old and Up To Date on shots, he is at an age when he needs to experience being boarded somewhere. This might help him... and will assuredly help him if he ever has to stay at the vet or somewhere else for a few days. 

You are at your Mother's (a different environment) and your puppy is probably not feeling confident. If you had his crate at your Mom's you could put him in there with his Kong with the frozen Cottage cheese. 

When he asks to go out it is also best to go out with him to improve his success at peeing and pooping outside (I always go out with my dogs.. never do I let them out and shut the door). After he has pee'd and pooped you can bring him in for a little crate time. I would get one of those plastic crates that are den like.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

He will grow out of it. He's just a bored puppy. Have you tried giving him a bully stick, frozen filled kong, toys?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

minisch0708 said:


> I've been here for about two hours, and in that time, the puppy has not stopped whining for attention.


What else did he have to do during those two hours?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Actually, after reading the other posts, I think that rehoming the dog may be your best bet.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I don't have the time right now, but I will try and re-read some of your other posts. BUT, does your puppy ever get "alone" time? Time when he stays in the crate, even though you are home? That's a very good thing for puppies. It teaches them, as others have said, that they can and will be ok if you aren't focused on them every second of the day.

It's not the same if you crate them while you are gone; that's fine, but, IMO, it's a good thing to give them a bit of "alone" time even when you're home. Build up to it gradually.

I also agree with those who have asked if you give her enough to do: interesting toys, interactive toys, etc.


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> How old is this puppy right now?


He was five months on 7 January.



Elana55 said:


> Whining is the hardest thing to stop a dog from doing (or redirecting a dog from). Do you have a crate for your puppy? Do you have a Kong you can fill with fat free cottage cheese and freeze and give to him in his crate?


I have a crate at home, but never use it nowadays. For the past four nights, I've left it open at home, but have not placed him in it to sleep. The principal utility of the crate for me was always to prevent his defecating or urinating on my carpet at night. Now that he has shown he can be trusted, I might take the crate to my mother's place. 

I don't have a Kong, but one will definitely be bought within the next few days.



Elana55 said:


> There are times when your puppy needs to be separate from you and needs to learn he can be and it will be OK. The amount of time separate is dependent on the age of the dog. If your puppy is over 5 months old and Up To Date on shots, he is at an age when he needs to experience being boarded somewhere. This might help him... and will assuredly help him if he ever has to stay at the vet or somewhere else for a few days.


My philosophy was always to crate him at night or when I had to leave my flat for an hour or two, because for some reason, he is always more comfortable in his crate when I'm away, rather than when he has the run of the house. I've just received notification of doxiemommy's reply, which is interesting as no, I never crate him when I'm home (except for at night). I'll give that a try...



Elana55 said:


> You are at your Mother's (a different environment) and your puppy is probably not feeling confident. If you had his crate at your Mom's you could put him in there with his Kong with the frozen Cottage cheese.


I reckon I have no choice but to buy a second crate.



Elana55 said:


> When he asks to go out it is also best to go out with him to improve his success at peeing and pooping outside (I always go out with my dogs.. never do I let them out and shut the door). After he has pee'd and pooped you can bring him in for a little crate time. I would get one of those plastic crates that are den like.


Oh, there's no problem with his housetraining: 'accidents' are a thing of the past (at least, they have been for two months, now - with one exception a month ago). As for letting him out earlier on, he didn't need to go. I'm used to his toilet habits now, and I didn't put him outside to poo, but just to play around. At one point, I went outside with him, and he was quite happy to play around. It was only when I came inside that he wanted back in.



Elana55 said:


> Actually, after reading the other posts, I think that rehoming the dog may be your best bet.


I'd rather not do that, unless I have to. For one, everyone I know would miss him, and two, it would be inflicting unncessary cruelty on him by tearing him away from people to whom he has become acclimitized.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

My general impression is that your puppy is too dependent on you, in part because of his personality and temperament. The fact that he never has to entertain himself and be on his own when you ARE home is only making this worse. 

So, use the crate, even when you are home. BUT, as your puppy sounds very sensitive, and maybe a bit anxious, I would start with small increments of time, and build up to longer time periods. Start with luring him in with a treat or yummy toy like a stuffed kong. We use peanut butter, and then freeze it overnight, so it takes longer to get it out. You can also use cottage cheese or yogurt, or bits of anything yummy.

Then, when he's in with the kong or whatever, shut the door, just for a couple minutes and leave the area. Come back and let him out. If he's whining, wait for a break in the whining, no matter how brief.

You can do this exercise several times a day so he gets conditioned to it. When he does well with that amount of time, you can add a minute or two. 

We two small dogs, and we just take the crates with us when we visit family and need the crates. Of course, if you have a wire type that might be larger, that can be kind of hard.

Another way to confine your puppy when you are home is to use a baby gate to block off a room for him to stay in, or purchase an ex-pen.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I've read all of your threads and I've always gotten the sense that you... micro-manage your puppy, for lack of a better term. You seem to be constantly watching him and becoming overly concerned about every little thing he does and every behavior he develops (you had more than one thread worrying that your pup was nervous around you, for example, but it never seemed from your stories or videos that he actually was). It sounds like you don't let him out of your sight at all (you said in another thread that your friend called you a "tyrant" because, as "master," you always want the dog next to you) and are constantly patting and paying attention to him. I realize he is a puppy and you need to keep an eye on him so he doesn't get into trouble, but, like others have said, he needs to get used to _not_ being with you every moment. _You_ have taught him to rely on you and cling to you so annoyingly.

The suggestion to crate him sometimes when you're home is a good one. I also like the idea of boarding him for a weekend or putting him in dog daycare a day or two each week. Also, just ignore him sometimes... if he wants to play and you're busy, it's fine to tell him to go lay down for a while. Did you think about training "go to your mat" like I suggested in another thread? I can't stress the usefulness of that command enough.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

I agree with Crantastic, especially about the references to some of the other threads and the micro-managing thing. I would work on the things that everyone else has suggested to build up his confidence when alone. 

As you work with him, give it time. He is still young and is learning. Have you read "The Other End of the Leash" or "Culture Clash" yet? I'm pretty sure those were recommended in other threads to help you understand dog behavior in general.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yeah, plus he is entering the 'terrible teens' as I like to call them. Either they become very very needy or they become destructive terrors lol. Your .ucky you have the former & not the latter lol. Izze wasn't needy in her puppy days... she ate things lol.

when he demands attention (like the whining you described) just ignore him. I know its hard because its annoying (well... not to those of us who are used to having pups lol) then wait for a moment of silence & I'm talking about a few seconds or so, give him a treat & praise. 

This behavior will pass if & ONLY if you teach him & help him through it. Please do not resent him he is only an animal that is going through the doggy equivilant of adolecence right now & you never know, you might have a reeally great dog when its al over.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> I've read all of your threads and I've always gotten the sense that you... micro-manage your puppy, for lack of a better term. You seem to be constantly watching him and becoming overly concerned about every little thing he does and every behavior he develops (you had more than one thread worrying that your pup was nervous around you, for example, but it never seemed from your stories or videos that he actually was). It sounds like you don't let him out of your sight at all (you said in another thread that your friend called you a "tyrant" because, as "master," you always want the dog next to you) and are constantly patting and paying attention to him. I realize he is a puppy and you need to keep an eye on him so he doesn't get into trouble, but, like others have said, he needs to get used to _not_ being with you every moment. _You_ have taught him to rely on you and cling to you so annoyingly.
> 
> The suggestion to crate him sometimes when you're home is a good one. I also like the idea of boarding him for a weekend or putting him in dog daycare a day or two each week. Also, just ignore him sometimes... if he wants to play and you're busy, it's fine to tell him to go lay down for a while. Did you think about training "go to your mat" like I suggested in another thread? I can't stress the usefulness of that command enough.


Ditto. You sound like you obsess about your dog. Dogs will soon mimic the owner's attitude. So neurotic owners, end up with neurotic dogs.


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> Actually, after reading the other posts, I think that rehoming the dog may be your best bet.


Just curious, Elana, why you think this. NOT trying to stir the pot, I am honestly curious, since I totally respect your knowlege about dogs.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

PiperPuppy said:


> Just curious, Elana, why you think this. NOT trying to stir the pot, I am honestly curious, since I totally respect your knowlege about dogs.


 What an adorable picture you have for your sig! Too cute!!!!


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Have you trained the dog to sit or lie quietly? It's no good to just complain about what you don't want the dog to do. You have to teach it what you DO want it to do. I would get yourself a clicker and start to work training a reliable "go to (and stay on) your mat."

What does your training routine look like? Terriers are smart little suckers and all the walking in the world isn't enough to wear out their devious little minds.


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Have you trained the dog to sit or lie quietly? It's no good to just complain about what you don't want the dog to do. You have to teach it what you DO want it to do. I would get yourself a clicker and start to work training a reliable "go to (and stay on) your mat."
> 
> What does your training routine look like? Terriers are smart little suckers and all the walking in the world isn't enough to wear out their devious little minds.


I deliberately waited for a while before answering this. In the meantime, I tried a different approach. I _lavished_ attention on the pup. Loads of it. This involved tug of war games, wrestling matches and cuddles galore. I also trained him to sit and stay at one end of the hall whilst I went to the other end. Anything he wanted, he got. Want to play with the ball? Go get it, tiger! Want a tummy rub? Roll over, little man! A bowl of food? Would Sir like fries and a large Coke with that?

This is the result. He's a lot calmer and readily lies at my feet. As you can see from the videos above, he also seems to have lost any and all fear of me.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

Giving him everything he wants when he wants it is just going to make him MORE demanding of you. Be careful with that method of yours. It's good that he's not scared of you, but don't take this plan too far and create problems.


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

Pynzie said:


> Giving him everything he wants when he wants it is just going to make him MORE demanding of you. Be careful with that method of yours. It's good that he's not scared of you, but don't take this plan too far and create problems.


I hear ya! But the other method clearly wasn't working, either. I believe the problem was that I was trying not to give him too much attention and instead was giving him too little! Paradoxically, Plan B has actually calmed him down quite a bit, which was the opposite of what I thought would happen.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I agree that giving him everything he wants is not a good thing. He is learning that he is in control, not you. And of course he is happier--he is in control, not you. I know I am much happier when I am in control.

Gracie (who will be a year old next week) was a VERY demanding puppy. Trust me, anyone here can attest to it. She tried her best to get everything that she wanted, but I didn't give in. She whined, I walked away. She bumped my hand for attention, I walked away. People come to our house and she acts like a crazy dog for attention, she gets ignored. She started to realized that she was not in control and things started to fall into place. we have an established routine, training program, etc. We practice NILIF (hope you read on up that) and we play on my terms, not hers. She gets attention when I want to give it to her, she gets fed when she sits, she goes out when she sits/rings her bell, etc.

I haven't read your other threads, so I may repeat some advice, so bear with me.

At five months, Gracie didn't want to be outside on her own, either. I would put her out there and she would stand at the door and bark and bark until I let her on, but then she would want to go right back out again. So I started going out with her and standing on the porch. Eventually she would go out on her own (she is obsessed with outside right now). At five months you want to watch the pup in case he gets into any trouble/eats anything. Even now I watch Grace while she is outside.

If you don't practice "Nothing in life is free" (NILIF) start now. It starts to teach the dog that you are in control and not the dog.

Gracie is a whiner, too. I tried ignoring it for a while and it did no good. My trainer suggested that I treat it like she was biting and give her a sharp "no" when she would whine. It has helped tremendously.

Get your dog some interactive toys or make up some games. Try hide and seek (with treats, toys or you). Today I took three plastic cups, put a treat under one and made Gracie find the treat. 

Contact a trainer, get him in classes.

Dogs need structure. If you don't give your dog structure, trust me, you will be miserable and you will want to rehome him as soon as possible. I don't think that is what you really want, but it is what will happen.

Look at it this way--the longer you let him get his way, the harder it will be to break him of it. Also, even though he has not had any accidents in a while, the chances of him being completely potty trained are slim. 

Right now your dog is in control. You need to get the control back. I am guessing when you were a kid your mom was in control and that made you feel safe. That's what you need for your dog.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

theyogachick said:


> If you don't practice "Nothing in life is free" (NILIF) start now. It starts to teach the dog that you are in control and not the dog.


I agree with using NILIF - but I don't agree that it's about "control".

It's about teaching the dog how to work with you to get what he wants, that he can indeed make things happen in his environment, and HOW to make those things happen. 

Don't bolt to the door, sit and wait and it will open. Don't jump around me for your food, go to your mat and lie down, and food will come to you. I don't see that as control, I see as teaching the dog how to use his environment (of which you are a part of) to get what he wants to happen.

I just like to take the concepts of "who's making whom do what" out of the equation. Is the dog triggering you to open the door by sitting, or are you triggering the sit by standing at the door? And answer that question as the _dog_ sees it, not in the human-centric aspect.

That's why I just take it totally out - and just call it teaching the dog what ways to get what he wants.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Control wasn't really the right word. What I meant was that the dog learns that it doesn't have to worry about anything...you have it covered. I do agree it is kind of a partnership. Gracie knows that doors (any kind) will not open unless she is calm, seated and waiting. 

Regardless of what the word is, the owner must teach the dog how to get what he/she wants and teh dog really shouldn't get things just because they are cute. I mean, heck, if that were the case, dogs would rule the world


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I think, and it's just my opinion, that the reason the OP considers the situation better now, after giving loads of attention, and basically anything the puppy wanted, is because now, there's at least SOME kind of bond forming.

It does seem before, that you, OP, were maybe "leaving the dog to his own" too much. Not that you were giving him "alone" time without you, but that, even when you were there, you weren't really interacting with him much. So, the dog always was your shadow, just watching you. Wanting more....

Now, you're building a bond, doing things with him, so he lies at your feet instead of watching you from across the room.

My advice would be to keep the interaction going, but STILL make the puppy spend some time alone, without you, in a crate. A short period of time, 20 minutes here and there. Kind of like a happy medium: time DOING things with you, not just being in the same room with you, AND time alone....


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

doxiemommy said:


> I think, and it's just my opinion, that the reason the OP considers the situation better now, after giving loads of attention, and basically anything the puppy wanted, is because now, there's at least SOME kind of bond forming.
> 
> It does seem before, that you, OP, were maybe "leaving the dog to his own" too much. Not that you were giving him "alone" time without you, but that, even when you were there, you weren't really interacting with him much. So, the dog always was your shadow, just watching you. Wanting more....
> 
> ...


I agree and I see this as huge progress! Keep giving the pup lovies and treats, but start making her work for them (like "sit" "down" "come" etc). The bond you are creating will become stronger, and your pup will learn all kinds of fabulous behaviors. I am really glad you have changed things up.


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## Sapphyr (Jan 23, 2011)

I completely agree with Theyogachick. I put Riley in his crate, cover it with a blanket, he cries, and I sit there and play games or watch tv. Just totally ignore it.

She pretty much summed up my whole opinion of training dogs and what's the right thing to do. Being in control, being the leader, the alpha, has been a big thing for me. This is mainly on account of owning a pitbull, where it's important that they view you in this manner. And even if it isn't a pitty, you still need to be the one making the calls, not your dog. Sure, throw the dog a bone every now and then, but don't answer them all the time. It's not cruel to ignore them if they want something. It's just teaching them that they can do things on their own and they don't absolutely need you for everything.

Also, if you're giving you pup food any time he wants it, I really don't promote that kind of treatment. I'm not asking for a schedule persay, though it's recommended, but just be sure to feed a pup no more than 4 cups a day. This is, also, where a schedule is recommended, because you want those 4 cups to last throughout the day. Obviously it's going to want more if it eats all 4 in the morning. As it progresses into adulthood, you'll want to cut back on food intake to at least 2 cups a day. Obviously, if it's a huuuge dog, you may want 3, but for small or medium dogs, 2 is fine for an adult. I absolutely despise seeing obese dogs, because, ultimately, their life quality is poor, and some of them wind up with arthritis on account of such weight. It's so sad, because those dogs are the worst. They don't really enjoy getting up since it pains them to do so. What's worse is it's ultimately at the fault of their owners for feeding them too much or not exercising them enough. 

Finally, -do not- let your pup loose at night. Especially letting your pup sleep with or near you. If that's happening, you might as well buy a ticket to Seperation Anxiety Boulevard. The problem with giving your dog tons of attention, is they eventually become incapable of coping with your absence. This is called seperation anxiety. I've experienced that these dogs can be very destructive... Or very very stressed and upset. Now, I'm not saying it happens 100% of the time, but if you keep giving a dog constant attention, doing everything with them, etc., it's greatly increasing the chance of your dog becoming stressed out when you leave him.

At any rate, I wish you luck with your dog and I really stress -not- giving up on him. We all know he wouldn't give up on you, he loves you.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Sapphyr said:


> Also, if you're giving you pup food any time he wants it, I really don't promote that kind of treatment. I'm not asking for a schedule persay, though it's recommended, but just be sure to feed a pup no more than 4 cups a day. This is, also, where a schedule is recommended, because you want those 4 cups to last throughout the day. Obviously it's going to want more if it eats all 4 in the morning. As it progresses into adulthood, you'll want to cut back on food intake to at least 2 cups a day. Obviously, if it's a huuuge dog, you may want 3, but for small or medium dogs, 2 is fine for an adult.


Sorry to jump in, but there is no set quantity of food to give: it depends on the dog's age, weight, exercise level as well as the type of food you give him. My LGB, who weights 125lbs, eats 4 cups a day! Check the recommended quantity on the bag of food you use, then consider how active your dog is (yes, my dogs get a bit less food on days where they don't exercise as much, and more on days when they spend more energy). The richer the food, the less you will have to feed. the more fillers it has, the more you will have to feed for your dog to get the nutrition it needs; the rest, you get to pick up and bag outside 

I also despise people who let their dogs be obese, and free feeding is a major cause of obesity around here. I like to feed mot dogs twice a day, and we have a routine: they have to lay down and wait for my signal, and we make it a fun training/game period. They know when they will get fed, and I know how much they eat. It also serves to reinforce my position as provider of all things nice and meaty, as well as my dogs' focus on me.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

For me it isn't so much being alpha--it's just not letting my dogs call the shots. I teach them how to get what they want, and then they get it. Gracie and Gizmo both know that in order to get fed, they have to be seated and waiting. Gracie know that in order to get her leash on/off, she must be seated and still. She knows that in order to get any attention when I come home, she has to be calm. If she wants doors to open (back door to potty, door to garage to go for a ride, car door to get in), she must be seated and wait until she is released. If she wants me to throw a ball/toy, she has to sit. In the mornings when she gets me up, she knows to sit by the bedroom door and wait for me...the door isn't even closed. In fact, she doesn/t even sleep in the bedroom...she comes in, gets me, waits for me to tell her she can leave the bedroom. 

She didn't know all these things, but she does now because I taught her. 

Gizmo also knows all these things. 

And I agree with the SA. Trust me, we are dealing with a form of it currently and part of it is because we lavished her with attention at first...now we are paying the price. Yes, part of it has to do with her background, but part of it is our fault. She never had to be alone. She does not sleep with us--she has free run of the house. Gizmo does, too.

It is good to form the bond with your puppy--we all need that, but be sure to make a good balance between affection for affections sake and affection that is earned. I do give both my dogs some unearned affection every now and then, but they are a bit older (Gizmo is 10 and Gracie is nearly 1). I am still super careful with Gracie because of her anxiety issues.

We all want you to do your best to keep your puppy--I can tell you love him and want what is best for him. And trust me, I went through the "OMG--I need to give this dog to someone else because I can't handle it" phase, too. If you work at it, it should pass.

Good luck!


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

Y'know, I'm going to stop bothering y'all with my silly questions. The puppy was once more descending into 'whine-a-lot' mode, and I was like grrr... he's getting rehomed.

Then this morning (Monday), I went back to work after a five month (unpaid, boo!) hiatus, and as I didn't want to leave the pup alone for nine hours, my friend who's unemployed agreed to watch him during the day. 

(which reminds me .. how long _can_ you leave a dog alone without fear?)

As the puppy and I walked out the door on our way to my friend's home, I glanced down at him, and there he was, trotting along next to me, head and tail held high, the little legs going faster than sight. And he turned his head, gazed adoringly up at me ........ and my heart melted.

I've been probably been too demanding. He's a pup, right? Pups stare at their owners (especially since I'm the only person in this house), right? I feel really guilty for even contemplating 'getting rid of him'. He's a part of the family now. I wouldn't kick a child out (if I had any), so why should I kick a dog out just because he wants/needs more attention than I've been giving him?

As for the 'new régime', I don't really give him everything he wants, but I _have_ multiplied the 'attention factor' by five at least. He still gets time in the crate when we're here - I estimate 4 x 30 minute sessions per day (fewer now that I'm back at work). 

As I got off the train this evening to go and pick him up, I realised with some astonishment that I was actually walking fast because I'd missed him!

He stays, and I learn to cope with his 'foibles', as he'll probably grow out of 90% of them anyway.


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## Sapphyr (Jan 23, 2011)

Well good~ Just give him time and a little understanding and it'll all be fine. I'd personally suggest backing up on x5'ing the attention, though. It seemed like you were giving him more than enough attention to begin with, and Seperation Anxiety is a really terrible thing to go through, should it occur.

Anyways, yoga chick, I say alpha, once again, because of the pitbull. Almost any pitbull owner will tell you, you have to be sure they understand you're the leader and they're to listen to you. As for my American Eskimo? He's all rough and tumble, thinks he's the big, tough macho man. Which I'm fine with, as long as unwanted behavior is corrected and his trainng is touched up on daily to give him structure. I'm not too concerned about being Alpha to him, but with the pit girl? Yes, I am.

And Mesh, 125 is pretty big... So, yeah, a dog that sizable would need more than 2, and exercise does play a part in quantity, I know. My dog only weighs 55 pounds and runs in the back yard for around 3 hours each day in 6 different sessions, considering the cold weather. When I got her it was recommended she ate 2 cups per day, even with all the exercise. Obviously doesn't literally run for 3 hours. She runs a little, wrestles with old shoes, and acts goofy in general, as shown in her youtube videos. On warmer days I let her enjoy the nice weather for a little while longer. I'd certainly think the minimum for any dog, though is 2. Just wouldn't seem fair to give a dog one cup to last all day. Only way it could be is if it didn't eat it all in the morning and it had a good amount left over at night.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I am so glad to hear things are good. I remember when we got Gracie (or Loki or Gizmo, for that matter). There were moments when I was like "THAT'S IT! OFF YOU GO!" and then I would look at him/her and be like "who am I kidding..."

Glad you found that bond...you two are connected now, and that is part of the battle.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Sapphyr said:


> I'd certainly think the minimum for any dog, though is 2. Just wouldn't seem fair to give a dog one cup to last all day. Only way it could be is if it didn't eat it all in the morning and it had a good amount left over at night.


Haha, if I gave my 9lb papillon two cups of food every day, she would be a blimp. She eats 1/2 cup per day, split into two 1/4 cup portions. My AKK, who is around 15 lbs, eats 3/4 of a cup per day. How much you feed depends on the dog's size and activity level, but also the quality of your food. If you're feeding one of the worse foods (any grocery store brand) with a lot of filler, you can feed more. If you're feeding Orijen or Taste of the Wild like I am, the dog needs a lot less.

minisch0708, I'm glad to hear you're finally bonding with your dog and enjoying having him around.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

minisch0708 said:


> I've been probably been too demanding. He's a pup, right? Pups stare at their owners (especially since I'm the only person in this house), right?


Some never grow out of it. Icesis will sit quietly in her chair next to mine, rest her head on the arm and stare at me for minutes at at time. It's mildly creepy. She's just a starer, I guess.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Haha, if I gave my 9lb papillon two cups of food every day, she would be a blimp. She eats 1/2 cup per day, split into two 1/4 cup portions. My AKK, who is around 15 lbs, eats 3/4 of a cup per day. How much you feed depends on the dog's size and activity level, but also the quality of your food. If you're feeding one of the worse foods (any grocery store brand) with a lot of filler, you can feed more. If you're feeding Orijen or Taste of the Wild like I am, the dog needs a lot less.


Exactly what I was thinking. My 10 lbs Min Pin/Chi mix eats 1/2 cup a day as well. Give her 2 cups and she'll end up looking like this:


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> Haha, if I gave my 9lb papillon two cups of food every day, she would be a blimp.


Heck, if I gave Pip (who is 50#) 2 cups of food a day he'd be a blimp. He gets 3/4 cup twice a day to maintain his boyish figure.


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

> As I got off the train this evening to go and pick him up, I realised with some astonishment that I was actually walking fast because I'd missed him!


Awww. So sweet! Glad you two are bonding. 

BTW, my puppy stares at me a lot too. I never really thought anything of it. Doesn't creep me out. I just figure she wants to know she isn't alone. 

And on that food note: If I tried to feed Piper 2 cups a day she wouldn't even eat it! LOL! I give her 1/2 - 3/4 cup in morning and at night, depending on how many treats (during training sessions) she had that day.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Elana55
> Actually, after reading the other posts, I think that rehoming the dog may be your best bet.





> I'd rather not do that, unless I have to. For one, everyone I know would miss him, and two, it would be inflicting unncessary cruelty on him by tearing him away from people to whom he has become acclimitized.


It wouldn't be cruel to rehome your puppy. Give him 15 min. to an hour with someone who understands dogs, and he'll be happy.


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

Sapphyr said:


> Also, if you're giving you pup food any time he wants it, I really don't promote that kind of treatment. I'm not asking for a schedule persay, though it's recommended, but just be sure to feed a pup no more than 4 cups a day.


Oh, no. I play with him most of the time he solicits it, but he only gets fed twice a day - once in the morning and once in the evening, plus maybe two or three treats a day, for which he either has to come to me, sit if he's already next to me, or drop the toy he's currently playing with. 



Sapphyr said:


> At any rate, I wish you luck with your dog and I really stress -not- giving up on him. We all know he wouldn't give up on you, he loves you.


Interestingly enough, a friend and I were discussing that only the other day. Isn't it anthropomorphizing to say he 'loves' me? I love my mother. If there were one piece of food left, I'd let her have it. And, I don't doubt, _vice versa_. What would my puppy do? Yeah, he'd scoff the food. I don't think he dislikes me, and he is obviously attached to me in a doggie fashion. But 'love'? I'm not so sure.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm surprised with the food discussion here that only one person has mentioned that it totally depends on WHAT KIND of food you're feeding!
Some foods have lots of fillers, some are heavy on protein, some have more grain, etc. Read the recommendation on the food bag, or go to their website to find what is recommended for your dog based on how much they weigh, and their age....


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

doxiemommy said:


> I'm surprised with the food discussion here that only one person has mentioned that it totally depends on WHAT KIND of food you're feeding!
> Some foods have lots of fillers, some are heavy on protein, some have more grain, etc. Read the recommendation on the food bag, or go to their website to find what is recommended for your dog based on how much they weigh, and their age....


Winalot Puppy here. About 1.5 tins a day, or 1.3 lb US daily. Nothing worse than a fat dog. It's cruel and it's ugly. And my puppy is - to quote a friend of mine - 'a babe magnet'.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

minisch0708 said:


> And my puppy is - to quote a friend of mine - 'a babe magnet'.


All puppies are a babe magnet, lol. 
Glad your mini is bonding with you. I can't recall the number of times I threatened to send my standard schnauzer back to her breeder. But everything does get better with time. I love her to pieces now (she's 20 months old fwiw) it was trying at times. And I still have some issues to resolve (counter surfing, barking when we are gone, jumping up to greet people) but she has come a long way.


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## Sapphyr (Jan 23, 2011)

Yeah, sorry, forgot about the dogs that are smaller than 10 pounds. Smalls and teacups. I don't think about them too often. And, I feed my dogs Iams, but when I get a job and get settled in with an adult life, I'd be more than happy to spoil my dogs with high end food. I just can't afford it, along with all the other things I have to fork over money for, right now.

Anyways, I'm just saying he's attached to you, and when you think of that in our terms, it's kinda mean to just ditch something or someone that's attached to you and looks to you as their guardian. When I say love, I don't mean as in partners, that's just weird. I say love as in 'bonded', 'attached', 'looks to fondly'.


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

NRB said:


> All puppies are a babe magnet, lol.


Unfortunately, so far the only 'babes' he has 'magnetized' are all twenty years too young for me! So I have to stand there, like '_a Miniature Schnauzer ... male ... he's about six months old now.. yeah, he's cute .. yeah, housetrained more or less .. no, no, you can't have him .. OK, bye ..._'



NRB said:


> Glad your mini is bonding with you. I can't recall the number of times I threatened to send my standard schnauzer back to her breeder. But everything does get better with time. I love her to pieces now (she's 20 months old fwiw) it was trying at times. And I still have some issues to resolve (counter surfing, barking when we are gone, jumping up to greet people) but she has come a long way.


Absolutely. I still can't train him to do anything other than 'sit', 'come', 'leave it' and 'stay'. But he's major league adorable. A bit spooked in the forest behind my block there, but we had a 'catch-me' game around the living room when we came back in, and he just had a biscuit to chew on, so all's well. :rockon:



Sapphyr said:


> I'd be more than happy to spoil my dogs with high end food. I just can't afford it, along with all the other things I have to fork over money for, right now.


Ditto. Although feeding a dog fresh food isn't that easy in the UK right now. Remember the 'mad cow' scare of a few years ago? It's almost impossible to get your dog a bone nowadays (I managed it, but the puppy threw it back up an hour later, so I abandoned the idea). Supermarkets aren't even allowed to keep chicken necks because of that.



minisch0708 said:


> (which reminds me .. how long can you leave a dog alone without fear?)


Anyone able to answer this?


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

minisch0708 said:


> Anyone able to answer this?


Or this..?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Supermarkets here don't usually keep chicken necks either. You'd have to go to a butcher for that. Tried that?


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Supermarkets here don't usually keep chicken necks either. You'd have to go to a butcher for that. Tried that?


Yeah, but they told me that they're obliged by law to destroy them, now.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh, right... well I just get chicken wings instead, my vet told me they are just as good as chicken necks for cleaning teeth, and the dogs love them... Surely you can still get chicken wings at supermarkets?


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

On the food subject....all of my dogs are free fed...and all of them are perfectly on track with their weight...


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## Sapphyr (Jan 23, 2011)

Kind of a dangerous 'game' you're playing, Trill. Free feeding is considered abuse to some people, given that you know the risks and potential outcome of it. I really disapprove of free feeding and I'd never suggest anyone to do that to their dogs. I've seen its effects first hand. Mother owns a pug, free fed her for years.. Obviously overweight, 30 pounds. Has arthritis in her legs on account of the weight stressing her joints too much. It's quite easy to see, it's very painful for her to get up from a laying or sitting position. Your dogs are lucky to not be overweight. Fixed or not, no dog should be free fed. I say fixed or not because dogs that aren't fixed tend to keep their frame better, it would seem. No idea why.

Anyways, never heard of chicken necks being recommended for dogs or being sold. I just get my dogs a bristle brush chew toy. Has rawhide disc inserts to get them interested. Also get other things like rubber chew toys, bones, etc. Dry food also naturally helps with dental matters. That's why it's important to not feed your dog a pure wet food diet or excessive amounts of wet food each day. My grandmother had two yorkies and she often fed them food she cooked, such as chicken or hamburger... Would sometimes go to a fast food restaurant and get a burger for them or chicken nuggets... They rarely ever ate dry dog food. Outcome was, they had so much plaque buildup that it infected their bloodstream and caused kidney failure. I mean... If you -want- to feed your dog wet food.. Sure, go for it, but be responsible and brush their teeth regularly. Though, ofcourse, most human food is reeeaaally bad, but I have heard of some good rice blends you can cook for your dog. Can't remember off the top of my head, but there's more than just rice, obviously. Gotta have meat, like some chicken. I heard Flaxseed oils are really good for your dog's coat and health. Also heard that about raw eggs... but salmonella keeps me at a safe distance from giving my dogs that. I always cook it before giving the egg.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't see any issue with free feeding if the dog isn't overweight. I haven't seen anyone call it 'abuse' around here, the only thing people say is that you don't know when they need to go to the toilet when they are free fed.

And my vet recommended I feed either chicken necks or chicken wings twice a week to help clean their teeth.

Raw food doesn't prevent dental issues, I fed mine the frozen raw food patties from the pet store for months, and it was after a few months on that that my vet noticed a build up of gunk on my poodle x's teeth, which is what prompted her to recommend feeding raw chicken.

It's a bit strange that you haven't ever heard it recommended, as I have heard it recommended many times for both cats and dogs.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

As far as how long a dog can be left alone without fear, it depends on the dog. Gizmo never seemed to have a problem with being alone as a puppy. Loki (RIP) didn't like it if we were gone more than a few hours (he got over it), and Gracie used to freak out if we were gone 20 minutes.

So, I don't think there is any exact answer for you. Dogs are so imprecise, lol 

As far as things for him to chew on, I don't know if you can get bully sticks where you are (I order online, but don't know if they internationally ship). They last a long time and keep teeth looking pretty good.

I am so glad that things seem to be going better!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Oh, right... well I just get chicken wings instead, my vet told me they are just as good as chicken necks for cleaning teeth, and the dogs love them... Surely you can still get chicken wings at supermarkets?


Usually (unless it's a small dog that has a hard time chewing) chicken wings are useless for cleaning teeth since they're crunched up so fast and eaten. You want the dog to take time to chew on them to get the benefit. I know some may, but IME, most dogs (even small dogs 5-10lbs) chew them up real quick and are done.



Sapphyr said:


> Kind of a dangerous 'game' you're playing, Trill. Free feeding is considered abuse to some people, given that you know the risks and potential outcome of it. I really disapprove of free feeding and I'd never suggest anyone to do that to their dogs. I've seen its effects first hand. Mother owns a pug, free fed her for years.. Obviously overweight, 30 pounds. Has arthritis in her legs on account of the weight stressing her joints too much. It's quite easy to see, it's very painful for her to get up from a laying or sitting position. Your dogs are lucky to not be overweight. Fixed or not, no dog should be free fed. I say fixed or not because dogs that aren't fixed tend to keep their frame better, it would seem. No idea why.
> 
> Anyways, never heard of chicken necks being recommended for dogs or being sold. I just get my dogs a bristle brush chew toy. Has rawhide disc inserts to get them interested. Also get other things like rubber chew toys, bones, etc. Dry food also naturally helps with dental matters. That's why it's important to not feed your dog a pure wet food diet or excessive amounts of wet food each day. My grandmother had two yorkies and she often fed them food she cooked, such as chicken or hamburger... Would sometimes go to a fast food restaurant and get a burger for them or chicken nuggets... They rarely ever ate dry dog food. Outcome was, they had so much plaque buildup that it infected their bloodstream and caused kidney failure. I mean... If you -want- to feed your dog wet food.. Sure, go for it, but be responsible and brush their teeth regularly. Though, ofcourse, most human food is reeeaaally bad, but I have heard of some good rice blends you can cook for your dog. Can't remember off the top of my head, but there's more than just rice, obviously. Gotta have meat, like some chicken. I heard Flaxseed oils are really good for your dog's coat and health. Also heard that about raw eggs... but salmonella keeps me at a safe distance from giving my dogs that. I always cook it before giving the egg.


Dogs can't get salmonella poisoning. Many people feed raw meals (I fed raw for a long time[raw chickens, turkeys, beef, pork, venison, rabbit, fish]) or supplement with raw bones to clean the teeth. They do a much better job than any toothbrush, dry food, or toy does IMO. 

Free feeding is generally frowned upon, but if it's working for the user, then so be it. We can tell her she's abusing her animals AFTER we see 2 ton dogs running around in her backyard.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Free feeding is generally frowned upon, but if it's working for the user, then so be it. We can tell her she's abusing her animals AFTER we see 2 ton dogs running around in her backyard.


I guess I have never had a dog who ate when they weren't hungry...all of my dogs, from my 12 year old to my 4 month old puppy, are all on track with their weight and go to the vet regularly (and the vet agrees with their weight)...there are pictures posted of them...

Tell me they're abused when they look lik whales


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Trillian said:


> *I guess I have never had a dog who ate when they weren't hungry*...all of my dogs, from my 12 year old to my 4 month old puppy, are all on track with their weight and go to the vet regularly (and the vet agrees with their weight)...there are pictures posted of them...
> 
> Tell me they're abused when they look lik whales


Haha, have you had hounds?


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Haha, have you had hounds?


Nope...and never really wanted any


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Trillian said:


> Nope...and never really wanted any


You'd probably have to stop free-feeding if ya did. 

Like I said, what works for one person (or dog!) might not work for everyone, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## Sapphyr (Jan 23, 2011)

Well, if they aren't overwieght by the vet's word then I guess it's fine. Seems like your dogs know what's best for 'em without help. My mother's pugs eat and eat and eat it they aren't stopped and put on a schedule of when and how much food they get. Same thing with my pit, she eats like a horse whenever she can. Namely when she runs into the hall and sees the pugs' food, I just tell her to keep goin' 'cause it's not for her. 

And I said -some- people say or consider it a form of abuse -if- the free feeder knows the negative effects it -can- have yet continue to do it, especially if a dog, or dogs, are already suffering as a result, such as in my mother's situation, but I make sure she doesn't go all lazy on them and reverts to free feeding. She claimed it was more convenient, I told her it wasn't fair or convenient for her overweight dog, with arthritis, and the others. 

Anyways, well, I've never had a dental issue with my dogs by far, and even with my grandmother, they didn't recommend chicken necks or wings. Never heard that for cats, either, but our cats haven't had dental issues either. 

At any rate, I don't mean to sound demanding or anything about what I say, it's honestly all in the interest of the dog's health. As you can see, I haven't had very many good experiences in regards to other people's tactics to feeding/caring for their dog, and the dog is the one that suffers in the end, from what I've observed first hand. I just don't want anything bad to happen to my dogs or anyone else's, so I'm just sharing the mistakes, namely, my family has made and the result of it. It's really sad to see my mother's overweight dog hobble down the hall. She can't walk too far before plopping back down and staying put for a while. She doesn't seem all that happy, to me. And the yorkie my grandmother owned looked pitiful before she was put down. I just don't want to see or hear that happen to another because they didn't know. I've personally held one of my beloved cats as she was put down, and it hurts if you care about your pet. Words can't describe the pain. Though, that one was a birth defect and the vet couldn't save her... But in generalizaton to anyone having to put their pet down for any reason, it's horrible, and I really hate it when someone has to experience that, 'cause I've been there.

And no, I'm not saying this or that could ultimately kill your dog, I'm just explaining where I come from, from what experiences I speak, and why I say it in the best interest of the dog. What I say is based on experience and what I've been told by vets.

Also, never knew raw food could clean a dog's teeth. Always thought it didn't have enough texture for it to 'scrub' or rub off buildup. Then again, wolves, stray dogs, etc. probably have raw meals, or in the case of a stray dog, meals that aren't the best, but I haven't heard of a wolf with dental issues. Then again, they may chew on bones after they're done with the meal or if they're bored.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Usually (unless it's a small dog that has a hard time chewing) chicken wings are useless for cleaning teeth since they're crunched up so fast and eaten. You want the dog to take time to chew on them to get the benefit. I know some may, but IME, most dogs (even small dogs 5-10lbs) chew them up real quick and are done.



Both my dogs need about 15-25 minutes to get through a chicken wing. What would you suggest as a better option for cleaning their teeth? They also regularly get chewy treats that they will spend ages on, but they are not specifically designed to clean teeth..


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Both my dogs need about 15-25 minutes to get through a chicken wing. What would you suggest as a better option for cleaning their teeth? They also regularly get chewy treats that they will spend ages on, but they are not specifically designed to clean teeth..


I generally recommend larger bones that they can't eat for cleaning like rib bones. Pork neck bones for cleaning/eating, but if your dogs ARE spending the time on the wings, then I wouldn't change it. I just know a lot can gobble them up in a few minutes and you'd feed them a whole chicken before you got some "cleaning" out of them.


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## Horseshoe (Nov 10, 2010)

I free feed kibble, I also have dogs from 5 mos to 12 years. Been free feeding for 20+ years without any weight problems. My vet is so ANNAL about weight and mine are perfect. A few times a week they get egg, venison, sometimes chicken, yogurt. My sisters lab/pit mix is also free fed and has never had a weight issue until now but she is 13.5 years and has liver failure. I guess it just depends on the dogs.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Sapphyr said:


> Kind of a dangerous 'game' you're playing, Trill. Free feeding is considered abuse to some people, given that you know the risks and potential outcome of it. I really disapprove of free feeding and I'd never suggest anyone to do that to their dogs. I've seen its effects first hand. Mother owns a pug, free fed her for years.. Obviously overweight, 30 pounds. Has arthritis in her legs on account of the weight stressing her joints too much. It's quite easy to see, it's very painful for her to get up from a laying or sitting position. Your dogs are lucky to not be overweight. Fixed or not, no dog should be free fed. I say fixed or not because dogs that aren't fixed tend to keep their frame better, it would seem. No idea why.


Free feeding works for some, but I wouldn't resomend it for some people who own labs (who we all know are eating mechines) & such dogs. I free fed my dogs for years when they were pups until I moved toa rual area where isn't a good idea to leave food out, day or night lol. Our barn dogs here are free fed, but I take the food up at night.



> Anyways, never heard of chicken necks being recommended for dogs or being sold. I just get my dogs a bristle brush chew toy. Has rawhide disc inserts to get them interested. Also get other things like rubber chew toys, bones, etc. Dry food also naturally helps with dental matters. That's why it's important to not feed your dog a pure wet food diet or excessive amounts of wet food each day. My grandmother had two yorkies and she often fed them food she cooked, such as chicken or hamburger... Would sometimes go to a fast food restaurant and get a burger for them or chicken nuggets... They rarely ever ate dry dog food. Outcome was, they had so much plaque buildup that it infected their bloodstream and caused kidney failure. I mean... If you -want- to feed your dog wet food.. Sure, go for it, but be responsible and brush their teeth regularly. Though, ofcourse, most human food is reeeaaally bad, but I have heard of some good rice blends you can cook for your dog. Can't remember off the top of my head, but there's more than just rice, obviously. Gotta have meat, like some chicken. I heard Flaxseed oils are really good for your dog's coat and health. Also heard that about raw eggs... but salmonella keeps me at a safe distance from giving my dogs that. I always cook it before giving the egg.


Actualy cooking it is bad because it takes away some of the nutrients of the egg, I have fed eggs for years & years, even farm fresh ones, shells included sometimes (by accident of course). Strange that you won't feed eggs but you will give a toy with a rawhide in it, which is horridly unhealthy.


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## BeyondBlessed (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm curious if the dog whines when your away. When I first got my pup and was crating him at night he whined so much I took him out to the garage. The next night he just whined for a few minutes and now he just whines right after I leave or when I'm tying my shoes and he knows I'm about to leave, but as soon as I'm not in eyesight he gets quite. Now if I'm in the same room and he wants attention he will start to whine or jump up my leg.

For attention when I'm away he's figured out how to pick up his rubber bone and bang it on the wall to sound just like someone is knocking on the door.


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## dilbert (Nov 1, 2008)

minisch0708 said:


> (which reminds me .. how long _can_ you leave a dog alone without fear?)





minisch0708 said:


> Anyone able to answer this?


There are two things to consider when asking the "how long at home alone" question:


First is how long can the dog hold its bladder.
Second is how long can the dog be alone for.

Here is some information I found while doing extensive research as I prepare to get a puppy this spring. For two really good resources to look at that combined can help with the "home alone" question, I recommend the two booklets by Patricai B. McConnell, Ph.D.: 1)Way to Go! How to Housetrain a Dog of Any Age 2) I'll be Home Soon: How to Prevent and Treat Separation Anxiety. Both booklets are easy reads and can be read in a single seating; but are full of information.

*In answering both questions, there are no absolutes. Every dog and situation is different.* But there are some guidelines.

For #1 (bladder), a _guideline_ is that a for a *medium to large sized breed*, a puppy can "hold it" for a period of age-in-months + 1 hours. So a four month old (medium to large breed) puppy can _typically_ hold it for 5 hours. For small breeds however, it will be less. And there is of course an upper limit no matter how old they are. I've typically heard 8 hours as an the upper limit. But again, since I'm getting a retriever, I've been researching large breeds. McConnell does point out that in general, small breeds can not hold it as long, simply because they have smaller bladders. But to me, 8 hours seems high, and asking a lot for a dog to hold it for that long. My personal plan is to limit my dog to 4-5 hour periods (once old enough for that). In other words, I'm planning to go home for lunch; and when I can't, to have a TRUSTED friend/neighbor let him out at lunch.

For question #2, this issue can vary greatly. Some dogs can literal not last a minute or two alone due to having extreme separation anxiety. (I highly recommend reading the above mentioned book since it is FAR easier to prevent separation anxiety than to resolve it.) Many dogs can last longer without fear, but will get bored and will find things to entertain themselves. With most dogs, you will need to work up to longer periods of time. Done right, it may only take a couple of weeks to work up to a 4-5 hour time block. But again, dogs differ. For some, it might take several months to work up to a 4-5 month period alone. 

Other things that can help is to make sure the dog is not bored. Having a toy box of chew toys, including stuffed toys, available for the dog is a big help. (See the sticky thread in this forum for more info.) Exercising the dog prior to your leaving so he is tired and clam will help him to rest and relax while you are gone. Keeping the dog in a single room can help. It will feel more secure to him. Plus, as McConnell points out, while we as people think a dog will be happier seeing things going on outside (because we are happier looking at the world outside), in reality that can create a lot of stress for a dog as he sees things that he wants to interact with, but can not. Or seeing things he might be afraid of.

As a general guideline to your question... with proper training and work, you can work up to a 4-5 hour period. Beyond that, opinions differ as to how long you should go. Some people do leave the dog alone for 8-9 hour periods. But that, in my opinion, is on the far upper limit and is something you need to work up to over a period of time. But personally, I would not want to have to hold it for 8 hours straight every day. So why ask a dog to?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

My tiny puppy held it overnight in his crate from his very first night here, which is 8-10 hours, from 2.5 months old. He was 1.7 kg when I got him, and is only about 5 kg now. So I don't think you can generalise too much, because I had heard that small dogs can't hold it very long either, but my puppy does, and my adult dog weighs less than him and will also hold it up to 8-10 hours when she's home alone (not crated).

Holding it while they are asleep in a crate is different from holding it while they are awake and running around, or even just loose in the house and mostly asleep, because they can get up and decide to go and wee and then go back to sleep, whereas in a crate they can't do that.

If the puppy can hold it 8 hours overnight, I would say he can also hold it for 8 hours during the day. Thing is tho, if you wake him up and take him for a walk and play etc, he might not be ready to go back to sleep as soon as he is put back in the crate for the day, and that changes things as far as holding it goes, if he plays in his crate for an hour or so after you are gone.

But you could try it, worst thing that can happen is that he has an accident in the crate. Then just confine him to a room where he has room to go and pee without having to sit in it all day.


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## minisch0708 (Oct 7, 2010)

Just a quick note, as I'm heading for a shower now and thence to work. I was looking at having to rehome the puppy again, as my friend was grumbling a bit at having to get up at 07:30 when I brought the baby over. But I got a second set of keys cut for my flat, and now I leave for work at 07:30, and he comes across to collect the little guy at 10:00. So far (yesterday and Monday), he's been as good as gold: no nasty surprises on the carpet. That's about three hours he holds it in. I no longer crate him at night, and he sleeps in his blanket next to my bed. No problems. I get up early, take him out, get ready for work and then take him out again before I leave. When I _was_ crating him overnight, he'd often hold it in for the seven or eight hours I was asleep. 

I'll answer in more detail when I get home.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

For Pete's sake, stop being so wishy washy and either make up your mind to be 100% comitted to being a pet owner or find your dog a good home. Until you decide that the dog is part of your family, you are never going to really bond with him. The dog must feel like he's always walking on eggshells, because they can pick up on feelings of indecision.

You COULD be a very good owner, because you take the time to actually try to learn about your dog. But the failure to comitt to accepting him as part of the family, and deciding that you will work through whatever issues come up, make me doubt that you are cut out for pet ownership. That has to be coming through to your dog, and making him insecure somehow.


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