# German Shepherd Question



## MikeK02048 (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi all,

My family is thinking of getting a GSD pup. There seem to be two different body styles for these dogs. Some breeders feature dogs that have highly angular backs with their hind end very low to the ground. Others seem to be more "normal" looking. Or is it simply that the ones with angular looking backs are "posed" that way for pictures or showing?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MikeK02048 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> My family is thinking of getting a GSD pup. There seem to be two different body styles for these dogs. Some breeders feature dogs that have highly angular backs with their hind end very low to the ground. Others seem to be more "normal" looking. Or is it simply that the ones with angular looking backs are "posed" that way for pictures or showing?
> 
> ...


There are as many lines of GSD's as there are individual dogs  (Well, maybe it's not THAT extreme...)
Here is a fun website a GSD friend sent me when I got Auz. It was fun for me to read through the lines, see the pics, and then research more from there once I know what type looked like what picture.
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html
There are pros and cons with every line, so do your research (it's half the fun, trust me!!!)


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

The link provided is a very good one, and covers the basics of the different types of German Shepherds. This has also been a popular topic before, so a quick search may yield more than I am able to provide you, with my knowledge (or lack thereof!).

There are more than just two types of GSD, but you are most likely referring to American show lines vs. German working lines. 

American show line -
* Ch. Kaleef's Silver Charm of Tabu*









West German working line - 
*Quiena von der Rackwitz-Meute SchH1 KKL1*









American show lines do not have "angular backs", but the extreme angulation is, in fact, usually a result of the way the dog is stacked. The GSD is stacked in such a manner in the show ring so the judge may properly evaluate the dog's conformation per standard, and an expert could take my working line GSD and make him stand on his hocks and overstretch him a bit to make his, as you say, hind end very low to the ground. 

However, this isn't to say breeders aren't breeding for extremes. I've seen GSDs walking on their hocks and wobbling around the show ring in person. In every breed there are extremes and it's often most noticeable among the German Shepherds. And in every breed there are irresponsible breeders, and those who breed for extremes and disregard temperament and function to cater to a fad would be considered by most on this board as an irresponsible breeder. What's important is knowing what you personally want, and knowing how to choose the right breeder for you.

My neighbor owns two American show line German Shepherds. And I promise you - those two dogs have wonderful temperaments and have no trouble getting around!

As far as lines, beyond that, there are also the West German show lines (also referred to as "high lines")

*BSZS Herding Siegerin V1 Faye von Kirschental (12x) HGH KKL1*









and the East German working lines (Czech and DDR)
Czech GSD - 
*Ch. V Galant z Pohranicni Straze IPO1 SchH1 SVV3 KKL1*









What you need to consider past appearance are drives and temperament. German Shepherds aren't dogs for everyone, and within the separate lines, you'll find differences in temperament more important. A North American show line dog would better suit a home and family who wants a relatively easy going, low drive dog without the need to workWorkWORK. An active family interested in participating in competitive obedience, Schutzhund, tracking, search and rescue, etc., may prefer a working line German Shepherd. 

A lot of it boils down to what you specifically want, and getting to know different breeders and what their breeding goals are, and what types of German Shepherds they produce. Some show line breeders breed for the conformation ring and for herding ability. Some working line breeders may take conformation into thought in their breeding system, some may not. And others may breed for SchH sport dogs, while others focus on producing dogs for the police or military. Do your research - it's definitely worth it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Equinox said:


> The link provided is a very good one, and covers the basics of the different types of German Shepherds. This has also been a popular topic before, so a quick search may yield more than I am able to provide you, with my knowledge (or lack thereof!).
> 
> There are more than just two types of GSD, but you are most likely referring to American show lines vs. German working lines.
> 
> ...


You nailed it


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Yep, sure did. 

I have an east working line, and he rarely stacks. When he does, he does not have NEARLY as much angulation as american show lines do.

The american showlines have such agulation because they aren't working dogs, whereas it could affect working dogs.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Yep, sure did.
> 
> I have an east working line, and he rarely stacks. When he does, he does not have NEARLY as much angulation as american show lines do.
> 
> The american showlines have such agulation because they aren't working dogs, whereas it could affect working dogs.


Auz is from high-lines







and this is the closest thing to "stacking" this dog does  

There are great and horrible specimens of all the lines IME. A lot of German Line people will talk down about amline GSD, and visa versa, and it seems kennel blindness has kept them from seeing what's going wrong with the dogs right in front of their faces. I've seen some AWFUL looking cripples that were from "german lines", and some awful looking cripples that were from "amlines". Don't believe that just because someone says their dogs are from "german lines" that it's a guarantee of quality, just like "AKC reg" doesn't guarantee a decent litter. JMO.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Trent (west German working lines) stacks himself quite often, especially when he is alert, but he does lack in the proper angulation for a German Shepherd. I don't believe, however, that a dog that lacks angulation is necessarily a good thing, just as a dog with proper angulation isn't a bad thing. Anything to the extreme is unneeded, so while I'm no fan of the hock walkers I've seen, I still can appreciate a nice American show line German Shepherd. Of course, what I personally believe is a "nice" Am. show line GSD can be vastly different from what an AKC judge believes is "nice", especially when you go to the national levels. 



DJEtzel said:


> The american showlines have such agulation because they aren't working dogs, whereas it could affect working dogs.


Out of curiousity, what would you say about this dog's angulation? Has none? He's a working dog, z Pohranicni Straze, no less! 



Equinox said:


> *V Galant z Pohranicni Straze IPO1 SchH1 SVV3 KKL1*



His back leg's a tad overstretched in that stack, but even then, you'll be surprised at how many people see that as "extreme angulation". There are actually many working line German Shepherds, both East and West working lines, with good show ratings and good angulation. Honestly, I don't see it interfering with their working ability. 



LazyGRanch713 said:


> There are great and horrible specimens of all the lines IME. A lot of German Line people will talk down about amline GSD, and visa versa, and it seems kennel blindness has kept them from seeing what's going wrong with the dogs right in front of their faces. I've seen some AWFUL looking cripples that were from "german lines", and some awful looking cripples that were from "amlines". Don't believe that just because someone says their dogs are from "german lines" that it's a guarantee of quality, just like "AKC reg" doesn't guarantee a decent litter. JMO.


Agree. Every line has their faults, and it's rather unfair to condemn ALL dogs simply because you've (an impersonal "you" here, not you specifically!) seen some you dislike in a particular line. But honestly, if the large majority of American show lines seen are at the national level, Westminster, AKC Eukanuba, or other large scale conformation shows, then you're almost guaranteed to see the German Shepherds bred to the extremes. 

So sure, there are German Shepherds that walk on their hocks, have weak pasterns, and extreme angulation among the American show lines. But there are also roached back West German show lines German Shepherds with no rear and German working line GSDs with a conformation that may make the show line people cringe. And not to mention, the temperament and mindset of a good working line German Shepherd is not for everyone. 

But there are also great, solid American show lines working as service dogs, drug detection dogs, and excelling in herding and competitive obedience. There are West German show lines with lovely conformation as well as working ability. And there are many SchH/IPO/VPG titled or police/military trained working line German Shepherds with 'V' or 'SG' ratings and working as therapy or service dogs and, not to mention, a part of their families as beloved pets.

We all love our dogs and may favor a particular line over others, but no need to be blind, as you say, to the others!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Agree. Every line has their faults, and it's rather unfair to condemn ALL dogs simply because you've (an impersonal "you" here, not you specifically!) seen some you dislike in a particular line. But honestly, if the large majority of American show lines seen are at the national level, Westminster, AKC Eukanuba, or other large scale conformation shows, then you're almost guaranteed to see the German Shepherds bred to the extremes. 

*Agree as well. I've been to a few "rinky-dink" dog shows, and the amlines dogs weren't anything to make me cringe. It seems too, that in the past couple of years, the GSD's at westminster haven't been quite as ridiculously angulated/stacked. I think it's a move in the right direction. I'm not "up" on the current trends at the Seiger shows, but I've seen some in past years that I thought were wonderful looking, and others that made my back hurt (and I'm a west german show person!) *

So sure, there are German Shepherds that walk on their hocks, have weak pasterns, and extreme angulation among the American show lines. But there are also roached back West German show lines German Shepherds with no rear and German working line GSDs with a conformation that may make the show line people cringe. And not to mention, the temperament and mindset of a good working line German Shepherd is not for everyone. 

*Also, the temperament and mindset of an amline and WGS line and Czech line..  I've met dogs from most lines on either end of the extreme. I've met some really nice, stable, sane amlines, and some amlines that were so spazzy and freaky, that didn't hesitate to bite (I can remember one up and coming show dog from a popular kennel who was excused from the PUPPY show class for going after the judge!!!) One of the first german bred dogs I met was an excellent drug dog. The units next 2 GSD's were NUTS. One got kicked off the unit for attacking other officers because they "moved wrong" or something, and the other was so poorly bred/poorly trained/poorly handled/whatever that he bit and damaged his own handler pretty badly from being so "riled up" (the damage was bad enough that it ended the officers career). I think people advertise dogs with "drive" as a cover-up for having no off-switch, or perhaps a screw loose. I've seen people brag about their "drivey dogs" (all breeds, not just GSD's) when the dogs IMO weren't drivey, they were practically insane. There's a difference between drive with an off-switch, and drive with NO offswitch. I got to witness Auz's dad's off switch first hand on many occasions, I really REALLY liked what I saw 
It's a damned shame what "the other side of the tracks" is doing to this breed.*

But there are also great, solid American show lines working as service dogs, drug detection dogs, and excelling in herding and competitive obedience. There are West German show lines with lovely conformation as well as working ability. And there are many SchH/IPO/VPG titled or police/military trained working line German Shepherds with 'V' or 'SG' ratings and working as therapy or service dogs and, not to mention, a part of their families as beloved pets.

We all love our dogs and may favor a particular line over others, but no need to be blind, as you say, to the others!

*Hear, hear!  I've heard it said that a GSD isn't necessarily the "best" at anything, but it's "good" at EVERYTHING, and that IMO is what it should be. Show the working dogs, and work the show dogs...*


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

MikeK02048 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> My family is thinking of getting a GSD pup. There seem to be two different body styles for these dogs. Some breeders feature dogs that have highly angular backs with their hind end very low to the ground. Others seem to be more "normal" looking. Or is it simply that the ones with angular looking backs are "posed" that way for pictures or showing?
> 
> ...


It can be one, both or either.

Any dog will kind of look that way if posed that way, but many are also bred with too much angle in their back legs and weak back legs.

I have two GSD rescue dogs. One I believe is from west German working lines primarily, a little leggy and her back end is definitely not low to the ground. A lot of drive, almost always busy, no couch potato.

My other is a either just bad outcome of GSD breeding, a runt, or a mix. But I see American working line in her, and her back is straight as well, with back legs way under angulated. She is a couch potato though, and would do well with minimal walks and such though I hope to change that some.

Were I buying a pup, I would want to meet and have a good look at both parents moving and working I think as well as the pup, as I do not like more angulated rear ends which often seem weaker to me.

Easier to do with adult rescue dogs.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Equinox said:


> Trent (west German working lines) stacks himself quite often, especially when he is alert, but he does lack in the proper angulation for a German Shepherd. I don't believe, however, that a dog that lacks angulation is necessarily a good thing, just as a dog with proper angulation isn't a bad thing. Anything to the extreme is unneeded, so while I'm no fan of the hock walkers I've seen, I still can appreciate a nice American show line German Shepherd. Of course, what I personally believe is a "nice" Am. show line GSD can be vastly different from what an AKC judge believes is "nice", especially when you go to the national levels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never seen a working line with that kind of angulation. I guess I just don't get out much. I will admit though, that I am new at learning GSD lines so I do have a lot to learn.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I've met dogs from most lines on either end of the extreme. I've met some really nice, stable, sane amlines, and some amlines that were so spazzy and freaky, that didn't hesitate to bite (I can remember one up and coming show dog from a popular kennel who was excused from the PUPPY show class for going after the judge!!!) One of the first german bred dogs I met was an excellent drug dog. The units next 2 GSD's were NUTS. One got kicked off the unit for attacking other officers because they "moved wrong" or something, and the other was so poorly bred/poorly trained/poorly handled/whatever that he bit and damaged his own handler pretty badly from being so "riled up" (the damage was bad enough that it ended the officers career). I think people advertise dogs with "drive" as a cover-up for having no off-switch, or perhaps a screw loose. I've seen people brag about their "drivey dogs" (all breeds, not just GSD's) when the dogs IMO weren't drivey, they were practically insane. There's a difference between drive with an off-switch, and drive with NO offswitch. I got to witness Auz's dad's off switch first hand on many occasions, I really REALLY liked what I saw


A nice black and red West German show line dog always makes me go crazy with want, too  

I think Trent may be described as a type of dog with an "off-switch". I may be wrong, as I don't have nearly enough experience with German Shepherds to say so, but his eagerness to work, obey, and please is off the charts and always apparent when we are working on obedience. His drive may be relatively low, in comparison to other working line dogs (he's bought as pet quality), but it's definitely there. 

When he knows we're supposed to get something done, he is always incredibly eager and wants to "go-go-go". But when we're in the house, he'll sit up on the couch or rest his head on the window and quietly guard the house and sleep for the day. If someone saw him at home, they'd swear he was a total couch potato when that's so far from the truth. Trent is a high energy German Shepherd, but when he knows he's supposed to calm down, he can stay cooped up inside for several days (when the weather is HORRID) without complaint, and you wouldn't even know the difference.

But yes, in any situation, health, then temperament, is the most important, IMO.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I've heard it said that a GSD isn't necessarily the "best" at anything, but it's "good" at EVERYTHING, and that IMO is what it should be.


And I love this about the breed!



TxRider said:


> It can be one, both or either.


Ditto



TxRider said:


> My other is a either just bad outcome of GSD breeding, a runt, or a mix. *But I see American working line in her*, and her back is straight as well, with back legs way under angulated.


Out of curiousity, what do you personally define as "American working lines"? 



DJEtzel said:


> I've never seen a working line with that kind of angulation. I guess I just don't get out much. I will admit though, that I am new at learning GSD lines so I do have a lot to learn.


Which is exactly why stacking a dog can make a large difference on the way the average person sees a dog! This also serves to demonstrate that lacking in angulation is _not _necessarily a desirable trait. What _is _desirable is lacking in _extreme _angulation. After all, Galant is z Pohranicni Straze, so I've never heard any doubts as far as working ability.


















More dogs of z Eurosportu, East German working lines (Czech, I believe specifically).

*Erri z Blatenskeho zamku SchH3, IPO3, ZVV1 *

















*Italo zet Eurosportu SVV2*









*V Farug Maly Vah SVV1*

















Farug's sire, *Brawnson*.









But holy crow, do I know what you mean about "having a lot to learn"!! I feel like I haven't even touched the surface as far as learning about German Shepherds. I haven't personally met many Czech or DDR working line GSDs, only a handful, so most of what I learn is from the internet - which serves as a wonderful resource, as we dog forum people know!


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## K9 Wolf (Jan 31, 2010)

Personaly I like GSD without angulations, they seem more natural and closer to the original standard- but that's my tought. We had a GSD long time ago, she was used to breed GSDs for the police, she had no angulations at all- she had the same normal hind end as any other dog in this world. Her son (Lazy) also doesn't have any angulation but he still has the best trot I've seen, he doesn't even seem to be troting- it's more as if her were one of santas raindeers and was flying through the air.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

K9 Wolf said:


> Personaly I like GSD without angulations, they seem more natural and closer to the original standard- but that's my tought. We had a GSD long time ago, she was used to breed GSDs for the police, she had no angulations at all- she had the same normal hind end as any other dog in this world. Her son (Lazy) also doesn't have any angulation but he still has the best trot I've seen, he doesn't even seem to be troting- it's more as if her were one of santas raindeers and was flying through the air.


As far as angulation goes, from what I understand a sloping croup is "correct", where as a roach back and/or a "slopey" back isn't (not talking about dogs that are hand or free stacked, I've seen some dogs who stand 4 square and are still roached, slopey, etc). Auz isn't what I would consider "under angulated", I think his angulation is nice and conservative; it looks correct to *me*, but A) I have a lot to learn and B) I may be a tad biased when it comes to my own dogs <G>


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Equinox said:


> Out of curiousity, what do you personally define as "American working lines"?


I meant to say American show line. Dunno why I typed working line.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

A nice black and red West German show line dog always makes me go crazy with want, too  

*Is it any surprise I learned about Auz's litter on Thursday and was bringing him home Sunday? (And was cheerfully wringing his little puppy neck by the NEXT Sunday?) *

I think Trent may be described as a type of dog with an "off-switch". I may be wrong, as I don't have nearly enough experience with German Shepherds to say so, but his eagerness to work, obey, and please is off the charts and always apparent when we are working on obedience. His drive may be relatively low, in comparison to other working line dogs (he's bought as pet quality), but it's definitely there. 

When he knows we're supposed to get something done, he is always incredibly eager and wants to "go-go-go". But when we're in the house, he'll sit up on the couch or rest his head on the window and quietly guard the house and sleep for the day. If someone saw him at home, they'd swear he was a total couch potato when that's so far from the truth. Trent is a high energy German Shepherd, but when he knows he's supposed to calm down, he can stay cooped up inside for several days (when the weather is HORRID) without complaint, and you wouldn't even know the difference.

But yes, in any situation, health, then temperament, is the most important, IMO.

*You described Auz to a "tee", only in the past year or so. As a puppy he was go-go-go-go ALL the time, which is why I think a lot of nice young (untrained) dogs wind up back to the breeder, in shelters, in rescues, etc. I had several GSD people tell me to give him til he was 3 or so to become more of a dog, and less like a butthead. It was worth the time and gray hairs I got surviving his puppyhood (and I NEVER EVER thought I'd say that!) Auz too can go days (and has gone weeks) during crappy weather with nothing to do, and seems quite happy to just hang out and "chill". Like Trent, when it's time to go and train, he's happy. The few times I've taken him to the barn to track down a litter of kittens, he was MORE than happy (and never failed ONCE).*



And I love this about the breed!

*Me, too  One day Auz does something really dumb and I swear I'll never get another GSD, and then the next day he does something that's utterly amazing, and I swear I'll never be without!*

Out of curiousity, what do you personally define as "American working lines"? 

*From what I've read, "american working lines" is most notably american dogs bred FOR herding, therapy, and service work, with a good, correct conformation; not a dog who's bred for show ring fads, and using a herding instinct test (which basically means nothing with a herding dog IMO) as "proof" their dogs can "do it all". Clear as mud? *

Which is exactly why stacking a dog can make a large difference on the way the average person sees a dog! This also serves to demonstrate that lacking in angulation is _not _necessarily a desirable trait. What _is _desirable is lacking in _extreme _angulation. After all, Galant is z Pohranicni Straze, so I've never heard any doubts as far as working ability.



But holy crow, do I know what you mean about "having a lot to learn"!! I feel like I haven't even touched the surface as far as learning about German Shepherds. I haven't personally met many Czech or DDR working line GSDs, only a handful, so most of what I learn is from the internet - which serves as a wonderful resource, as we dog forum people know!

*Awesome pictures!!!! I've had breed people tell me if you're in the breed for 30 years, you basically know which end the sh*t comes out of, and that's it, because there is SO much to learn. There are a lot of internet resources that are extremely biased (german working line people called american dogs crap, american dog people calling german bred dogs "banana backs", etc.) I have a real problem with people breeding for their own type and doing nothing else but badmouthing and bashing the people who don't breed JUST like them. If you like working lines, don't get an amline. Plain and simple. If you want to show AKC, don't get a dog like Trent or Auz. Plain and simple *


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Equinox said:


> A nice black and red West German show line dog always makes me go crazy with want, too
> 
> I think Trent may be described as a type of dog with an "off-switch". I may be wrong, as I don't have nearly enough experience with German Shepherds to say so, but his eagerness to work, obey, and please is off the charts and always apparent when we are working on obedience. His drive may be relatively low, in comparison to other working line dogs (he's bought as pet quality), but it's definitely there.
> 
> ...


That sounds a lot like Frag, too. Although, I think his switch might have a dimmer on it depending on the day.. 

Interesting pictures, though. Thanks for showing them. Haha, totally changes most of what I had thought, for the better, of course. I've looked at tons of information about lines, etc, but like Lazy said, there's just so much biased information, it's hard to keep things straight. 

My friend actually has a GSD that she rescued from a rescue near indianapolis I believe. I don't know his whole story, and neither do they, but he started out working as a Czech border patrol dog I guess. Very neat, imo, and you can tell he was used as such in some of the things he does, but otherwise, he seems just like Frag. I've never seen that guy stack, either. I might ask my friend to stack him next time I'm over there, so settle my curiosity.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> That sounds a lot like Frag, too. *Although, I think his switch might have a dimmer on it depending on the day*..
> 
> Interesting pictures, though. Thanks for showing them. Haha, totally changes most of what I had thought, for the better, of course. I've looked at tons of information about lines, etc, but like Lazy said, there's just so much biased information, it's hard to keep things straight.
> 
> My friend actually has a GSD that she rescued from a rescue near indianapolis I believe. I don't know his whole story, and neither do they, but he started out working as a Czech border patrol dog I guess. Very neat, imo, and you can tell he was used as such in some of the things he does, but otherwise, he seems just like Frag. I've never seen that guy stack, either. I might ask my friend to stack him next time I'm over there, so settle my curiosity.


I used to say the EXACT same thing about Auz, the switch is on, but it's on a dimmer  Some days it's like the dimmer got turned up too high, and the bulb completely blew up and needed to be completely replaced. Then during his adolescent time, a new bulb simply wouldn't do. We needed an electrician to re-wire EVERYTHING first.. LOL


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I used to say the EXACT same thing about Auz, the switch is on, but it's on a dimmer  Some days it's like the dimmer got turned up too high, and the bulb completely blew up and needed to be completely replaced. Then during his adolescent time, a new bulb simply wouldn't do. We needed an electrician to re-wire EVERYTHING first.. LOL


Haha, very good way to put it. I hate electrical. 

I did all of the electricity in my house when we were building it, and had raw hands and was missing brain cells by the end of it. Hopefully Frag won't do that to me.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I meant to say American show line. Dunno why I typed working line.


Got it. I actually think I heard/read someone once use the term "American working lines" and wondered about that myself.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> Is it any surprise I learned about Auz's litter on Thursday and was bringing him home Sunday? (And was cheerfully wringing his little puppy neck by the NEXT Sunday?)


It took a year to decide on the breeder I wanted, and another four months after visiting the breeding and placing my deposit. And just like you, by the next month, I was making plans to send that little land shark right back... if I could manage to pry his teeth off my sleeves first!



LazyGRanch713 said:


> It was worth the time and gray hairs I got surviving his puppyhood (and I NEVER EVER thought I'd say that!)


Never thought you'd say what? "It was worth the time and gray hairs" or "[I survived] his puppyhood"? Because some days it felt like the latter, for me!!  Luckily, for me, I also feel that the worst is over. Trent is developing and growing up so well - truly into my "perfect" dog. 

Of course, his teenager phase started several months ago, and he can be a real butthead, but I think we're pulling through okay! At least this phase doesn't involve bloody ankles and chewed up fingers.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> From what I've read, "american working lines" is most notably american dogs bred FOR herding, therapy, and service work, with a good, correct conformation; not a dog who's bred for show ring fads, and using a herding instinct test (which basically means nothing with a herding dog IMO) as "proof" their dogs can "do it all". Clear as mud?


Could you link me to any breeders as an example? I know breeders who do that as well, but they are also involved in AKC conformation, and therefore are referred to American show lines. I'd love to find some breeders who are involved more in working their dogs.



DJEtzel said:


> Interesting pictures, though. Thanks for showing them. Haha, totally changes most of what I had thought, for the better, of course. I've looked at tons of information about lines, etc, but like Lazy said, there's just so much biased information, it's hard to keep things straight.


Certainly, there'll always be biased people and information around! Which is why many forums are a great source of information, because you often hear from both sides of the argument. I most certainly may not agree with many people on dog forums and may have my own share of arguments and debates, but nevertheless, I do in fact find their thoughts and insights valuable.



DJEtzel said:


> My friend actually has a GSD that she rescued from a rescue near indianapolis I believe. I don't know his whole story, and neither do they, but he started out working as a Czech border patrol dog I guess. Very neat, imo, and you can tell he was used as such in some of the things he does, but otherwise, he seems just like Frag. I've never seen that guy stack, either. I might ask my friend to stack him next time I'm over there, so settle my curiosity.


A lot of it also may depend on who is doing the stacking. Someone who knows how to stack a GSD can make a dog appear several different ways, whether it's to appeal to those involved in North American show lines or German show lines. 

As Trent and I have figured out from experience - stacking's hard work (for us)!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Equinox said:


> Of course, his teenager phase started several months ago, and he can be a real butthead, but I think we're pulling through okay! At least this phase doesn't involve bloody ankles and chewed up fingers.


Guh. I know what you mean. I was at the dog park today and a man with another GSD asked me if I ever planned on training Frag, because he wasn't listening for crap and was about 10x more reactive than usual..  I guess he never went through the teenage phase with his. 


The remarks I get will probably be the hardest. Frag might be a butt, but at least he doesn't talk back!




Equinox said:


> A lot of it also may depend on who is doing the stacking. Someone who knows how to stack a GSD can make a dog appear several different ways, whether it's to appeal to those involved in North American show lines or German show lines.
> 
> As Trent and I have figured out from experience - stacking's hard work (for us)!


hm. I didn't really know you could make them appear different ways to appeal to different lines. I'm gonna need to research this now.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Frag doesn't talk back? You got off easy! Trent talks every stinking chance he gets these days. Makes for a good watch dog, but if I say something to help, you can bet that he'll reply _"ruffRUFFRUFF*grumblegroan*RUFF"_. 

You mentioned Frag was East German working lines - what's his breeding? I've also read/heard that a lot of the East German working lines will tend to be reactive as young dogs and mature slowly, but once they do mature, they become incredible stable dogs with that same alertness and sharpness, but without the need to express it in an inappropriate manner. Trent will be bratty and he'll whine and complain and vocalize, but his impulse control is strong and something we've worked well on, and he can easily ignore another dog and the rest of his surroundings if I ask him to. 

As far as changing a GSDs appearance in stacking them, there was a good thread dedicated to that started by Xeph demonstrating with her dogs how they can appear to be extreme if stacked one way and then look like the sound GSDs they are if stacked another. I've also seen pictures of a dog stacked in a conformation ring (UKC or AKC) and then stacked in the SV show ring - and trust me, Average Joe looking at the picture would declare that was a "Gawdawful roach back" when, in fact, that's far from the truth. If I asked for a SV show handler to stack Trent to appeal to those in that venue, and then an AKC handler to stack Trent to appeal to those showing under the AKC, there is guaranteed to be a noticeable difference. Of course, when I stack Trent, all I can do is unintentionally accentuate his faults


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Equinox said:


> Frag doesn't talk back? You got off easy! Trent talks every stinking chance he gets these days. Makes for a good watch dog, but if I say something to help, you can bet that he'll reply _"ruffRUFFRUFF*grumblegroan*RUFF"_.
> 
> You mentioned Frag was East German working lines - what's his breeding? I've also read/heard that a lot of the East German working lines will tend to be reactive as young dogs and mature slowly, but once they do mature, they become incredible stable dogs with that same alertness and sharpness, but without the need to express it in an inappropriate manner. Trent will be bratty and he'll whine and complain and vocalize, but his impulse control is strong and something we've worked well on, and he can easily ignore another dog and the rest of his surroundings if I ask him to.
> 
> As far as changing a GSDs appearance in stacking them, there was a good thread dedicated to that started by Xeph demonstrating with her dogs how they can appear to be extreme if stacked one way and then look like the sound GSDs they are if stacked another. I've also seen pictures of a dog stacked in a conformation ring (UKC or AKC) and then stacked in the SV show ring - and trust me, Average Joe looking at the picture would declare that was a "Gawdawful roach back" when, in fact, that's far from the truth. If I asked for a SV show handler to stack Trent to appeal to those in that venue, and then an AKC handler to stack Trent to appeal to those showing under the AKC, there is guaranteed to be a noticeable difference. Of course, when I stack Trent, all I can do is unintentionally accentuate his faults


Haha, I didn't even think about him vocalizing when I said that; I don't know what I was thinking. He's quite vocal, but to be fair, usually isn't with me unless I won't let him mouth, jump all over me, etc. If he isn't getting his way though, he'll throw himself at the ground with the loudest sigh you've ever heard in your life. And then will continue sighing untill you give him some sort of attention. 

On the topic of his breeding.. well, I hate when people ask me that because I always feel like a terrible owner.. we got Frag from an accidental litter before I knew a lot about shepherds, breeders, etc. No health testing that I'm aware of, or titles. I don't know ANYTHING about his parents, except for what we've seen in pictures and heard, which of course can only go so far, but it's all I have to go by, so I do. His dam was registered, sire wasn't, but we were told both were east german working, and he does fit the bill, so we're accepting that fate. I feel like a bum; I don't even know their names. 

Overall, even though he didn't come out of anything good, I wouldn't take it back for the world. He's been a great puppy, with great drive, a "dimmer" switch, great health (not to say he won't get HD later..), and he's been an absolute joy to own, train, and love, even through all of my own faults and mistakes.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Equinox said:


> Could you link me to any breeders as an example? I know breeders who do that as well, but they are also involved in AKC conformation, and therefore are referred to American show lines. I'd love to find some breeders who are involved more in working their dogs.


My opinion of american "working" dogs is probably as vague as the GSD standard itself  But I have been impressed with these dogs because of their proven versatility:
http://www.appleridgekennels.ca/

These aren't the lines I'm interested in purchasing for myself, but I like seeing GSD's that are worked as "total dogs"...conformation, herding, agility, rally, obedience, therapy, etc. The male on the page got his championship AFTER he got his CGC, HT, CDX, etc...for me, buying a dog that's out of 2 AKC champions should be the icing on the cake, NOT the sole reason for breeding those dogs. Clear as mud? 
That said, though I'm a west german showline person myself, I've watched the seiger show on youtube (you can find several of the different years, too), and some dogs out of highly respected/big named kennels have dogs who's protection portion of the show, well...sucks. Lack of courage, poor bites, no outs, etc. The "big name" kennels can afford flashy advertising, awesome looking imports, but might not be all they COULD be if they'd spend more advertising and import money training and trialing and proving their own dogs, and examining their breeding program. DISCLAIMER: My opinion ONLY, feel free to set me straight if I've missed something obvious (wouldn't be the first time! <G>)


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