# Remainder Of My Xmas Season Is Being Ruined...Please help



## tandrace (Dec 11, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I am new here, joined to seek answers for my new life raising a dog. I have a mutt (german/lab) that is one year, generally he is tolerable and since he bit a kid that was most likely taunting him, I decided to make him a house dog. I go to court tommorrow. He's not the problem though.

Several days ago I bought a puppy from a breeder that told my dd she would sell to us for $50 ( a chow, full breed/female/cinnamon in color). We made the purchase, the breeder delivered the 3mos. old chow from a kennel which the puppy refused to move from. She literally had to dump the puppy out of the kennel. Ask for further assistance, which I refused and she left. Ofcourse, I'm thinking since this is just a pup. surely I can handle her....wrong...super big mistake!

This puppy which was fairly big ran behind my entertainment shelves pooped sprayed all the walls in the process and refused to come out with the meanest snarls and bite attempts she could muster. I called my elderly dad (which is in good shape) to help me with her. She bit my dad on 3 fingers...blood everywhere but somehow he managed to tug the rope the lady had around the dogs neck and get her to the back room kernel to contain the puppy. Yes, a keen rope around the pups neck....my dd was furious and so was I. 

We immdediately bought a collar/leash for the pup and named her "Pepper". However, this is "day 6" and the pup yet refuses to let us bathe her, pick her up, attempt to potty train her without threatening with her vicious snarls and growls to bite our fingers off as she attempted to with my dad's. My daughter found a good bath spray-on for the dog which smells great but the puppy yet barks to get out of the kennel to poop and pee...so she can mess the floors/carpet. She still runs back into the kennel when I try to guide her to the right place to poop/pee; So she ends up peeing in the kennel on the part I lined with the newspaper. 

Now she has learned to save her pooping for human attempts to move her against her will(defense mechanism). She snarls, bites and poop sprays the walls and floors during the entire moving process. My dd and I did attempt to get her to the bathroom and this is the price we paid...we spent hours cleaning the walls and floors where she'd ran poop-spraying and dodging us.

I feel this dominant pup has control of us, she growls continously at my big dog and my daughter and refuses to let me properly care for her. We have decided to sell her to a breeder or trainer to get our money back, but it troubles us because after dealing with the breeder that sold us the puppy; We are feeling not everyone who breeds are good breeders for the dog or potential family holders. We are also considering the animal shelter for her....problem is how do we even get her to move at our will without getting bit. We are afraid of this pup and we have reached the conclusion that she is definitely not a match for our family unit. She needs to go so the right ones can give her the proper care she so desperate needs.

Any advice...please help


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

OH MY.... 

First thing you need to do is obtain the dog's trust. Try sitting on the floor with some treats and have her come to you on her terms... pet her, rub her ears... do as much as she will let you.... do this regularly, at least to start.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

op2: This should be interesting....


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

The dog isn't dominant. She's terrified. Clearly the "breeder" didn't socialise the puppy at all, and it probably never left whatever kennel it grew up in.

This dog is going to be a LOT of work and problems, and will probably never be a confident, happy dog. I would return it to the breeder or have it put to sleep.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Forget about trying to get your money back. Apparently you didn't check out the puppy or the breeder before you spent your money. Big mistake. If you are not willing to keep this poor dog, find a rescue who can take it in. Be up front with what happened. Hopefully someone with some insight can work with this dog who apparently has had a really bad start in life.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Dominant? REALLY?! that dog is absolutely terrified! The dog needs time, and a LOT of work. Probably more than you would be interested in giving it.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

I would be so quick to put it to sleep though, I mean these dogs can be worked with, but the owner has to be patient which doesn't seem like its probable so rehoming it to a chow experienced owner would probably be your best bet. Or a chow rescue.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

tandrace said:


> She needs to go so the right ones can give her the proper care she so desperate needs.


And who are these magical people who have the time, money, and desire to socialize a pup with such deep-rooted problems? For the most part, there aren't people out there looking for a project dog. If you take this pup to a shelter, it will likely get put down.

You're painting yourself as the victim in this story, but you supported the breeder who allowed this situation to occur. She bred a couple of dogs, irresponsibly no doubt, failed to socialize the pups, and got money for her trouble! And you know what? She will do it again. Next time, do some research, seek out a responsible breeder, or rescue.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

The puppy is scared out of its mind and defending itself. Hire a professional trainer that uses positive methods or rehome with a breed-specific or other experienced rescue group. Since you are already dealing with one dog that bites people, you need serious help to deal with another terrified dog before it too becomes dangerous and a liability. And the so-called breeder is a POS that should never have gotten your money and doesnt deserve the dog back.

Oh, and quit worrying about Christmas... You chose to take on a puppy right before the holidays; even a well mannered pup would require a ton of your time and attention


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Do you live in the USA? 

what a train wreck. What Shell said.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I've been volunteering at a busy high kill shelter for two years and we barely ever see puppies that bad. I agree, it'll be put down ASAP upon arrival to the shelter. You're only option, that'll help her and you without euthanasia, is to find a chow rescue or another rescue willing to take her in. Because she is young she can be rehabilitated. You're most likely misreading her behavior and labeling her incorrectly as aggressive. Puppies are rarely truly aggressive, she's simply scared... but she could certainly do some harm later or maybe even now. She needs someone experienced to help her, like a rescue.


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## Twinney (Nov 4, 2007)

If you live in the US you may be able to opt for Puppy Lemon laws, depending on your state.
Otherwise, if you have time work on rehabing this poorly bred and socialized pup (which CAN be done, it just takes time) or put her down. I feel that if you take her back to her breeder your puppy will produce more just like herself.
In the event that you sell her to another breeder or trick someone into buying her you are either just as irresponsible as the breeder for reproducing her, or your just pushing your problems off on someone else. 

Frankly, you chose not to research proper breeding practices, and while it is sad that this puppy is such a nervous (read: NERVOUS not DOMINANT) wreck, she is YOUR dog now. You would be bailing on her just like her 'breeder' did.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Return the dog to the breeder if you can (though you likely will have to forget getting a refund) or find a breed specific rescue to take it. If you take her to a shelter she will likely not pass any temperament tests and will be euthed. Since you say you have a small child, I am hesitant to recommend you go to a behaviourist and work with it...this dog is highly terrified (not dominant) and a terrified dog will bite.

You didn't have the forethought to check out the breeder, so I cannot assume you would have the forethought to not leave the pup with the child...especially since I'm assuming the other dog bite happened when you weren't there..since you "think" he may have been teased it's obvious you weren't there to see it. Not responsible things to do all around.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

tandrace said:


> Several days ago I bought a puppy... for $50... we made the purchase


Please don't refer to a living, breathing animal as a 'purchase.' You don't 'purchase' a child when you adopt one, even as a baby, and you don't purchase a dog.
It makes it seem like a trivial buy like a computer or a Christmas tree.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Put the puppy down, if you're going to court for a nip by your gsd, imagine what could happen if this pup got out. I think it's the kindest thing to do, also report the person you bought it off to the aspca, maybe take some video of the dog's behaviour for them to view. It would be the kindest thing to do to put her to sleep. As Hallie said about working in a shelter, I was behaviourist in a shelter last year and did not come across a dog as bad as you are describing and this was a very very high kill shelter.


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## Britt & Bello (Apr 14, 2011)

I really find it highly depressing how many people are suggesting to put the puppy down. Poor thing is three months old and terrified out of her mind because some dumb*ss breeder doesn't really care about the dogs. Now granted the owner screwed up (pretty mightily). But that doesn't necessarily mean to tell them that because they screwed up (again) that the dog should die. They came looking for help didn't they? 

So I second the sitting in the room with treats. Good treats, bits of hot dog, bacon, things that smell awesome. And toss them to her. Sit with your back to her so that she can't see her. Don't sit and stare at her as tempting as it is. To a terrified dog, being "stared down" like that makes it worse. It is going to take lots of time. At first it needs to consistently be the same person trying to make her feel safe. Get her into a routine even though you can't necessarily bring her outside. Deal with the fact that you will be picking up poop and cleaning up pee inside. It sucks I know. Don't yell at her. Don't punish her. Just come into the room at the same times everday. Give her food. New water. Toss treats. Speak gently and nicely. Don't worry about your Christmas season. You brought this little girl into your home and you owe it to her to try and make it better. Not take the easy way out and "put her to sleep."

Contact a behaviorist if you can. And if you really think you can't handle her then get her to a chow rescue. If you give her back to that breeder, you know as well as everybody here she stands no chance.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

The dog is 3 months old and well past its critical socialisation period, the likelihood of it being any kind of normal dog is very slight/highly improbable. How it's acting indicates that it is beyond reasonable hope in IMHO.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Depending on the location of the OP, lots of shelter pups get put down simply because of space limitations. Trying to rehabilitate one that's this far gone...I just don't see the point when there's gobs of others waiting for homes. Too callous for you? Blame the irresponsible breeders and the people who support them.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> The dog is 3 months old and well past its critical socialisation period, the likelihood of it being any kind of normal dog is very slight/highly improbable. How it's acting indicates that it is beyond reasonable hope in IMHO.


I agree with this, and this is why I suggested pts. A dog this young with this many problems isn't going to have a good life. Maybe, just maybe, it could get a LITTLE better with a LOT of professional help, but it will most likely never be a happy, normal, confident dog. Chances are this will always be a high maintenance, fearful dog. PTS is often more humane than life at all costs.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I am saddened by all of the "PTS" responses. Really. This isn't a 3 year old aggressive dog. This is a 3 month old terrified puppy who needs guidance and needs to know that the world is not a terrible place. I got my dog from a rescue when she was 4 months old, and she had been in a shelter since she was 8 weeks old, so she also missed most of her critical socialization period. Did she need extra work? Yes. 

What about dogs from hoarders? Should the immediately be put down because they are fearful? Should they not be given a chance to be rehabilitated?

Do I think this person is equipped to handle this pup? No, I don't. I think the best thing for the pup is for the OP to find someone knowledgeable to take it. What about contacting a Chow rescue? A Behaviorist? A trainer? Something...

Is everyone overlooking the fact that he got a chow from a "breeder" for $50? BYB anyone? 

Has the dog been to a vet? Have you TRIED to sit on the floor and wait for the dog to come to you? Have you kept the dog and the puppy seperate? Do you even know if the puppy has its shots yet? Or have you just decided that the dog is doing this to be mean? Because that is just silly. 

The dog is not dominant. The dog is scared, alone, has been literally dumped in a place that it doesn't know.

Oh, and if your dog bit someone, regardless of the taunting, that is not good. Apparently you need to work on supervising and socializing BOTH your dogs.

Please do this puppy a favor and start making phone calls. Get the pup the help it needs...and get it out of your house. You were obviously not ready to handle a puppy, nor should you, if you are dealing with a dog bite case (yet another thing everyone seems to be overlooking--what breeder in her right mind would sell a puppy to a person with a pending court case for a dog bite?)

Seriously. This whole situation is out of control.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

No trainer/behaviourist with half a brain would take on a dog like that.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

This sickens me. This poor puppy is absolutely terrified and the OP is worried about Christmas. Do everyone, including yourself, a favor and don't buy anymore pets. You seem a little too selfish and unwilling to accept any responsibility for the pets you already have. A child was bitten by your dog. That's your fault, not the child's. The most decent thing you could do is find a local rescue who will take this poor puppy off your hands. You should probably also rehome your other dog, which seems to have had no training.

I'm also shocked at the number of PTS suggestions. Can a young puppy not be worked with but other dogs rescued from horrific conditions can be rehabilitated?


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## dogdaddy (Dec 13, 2011)

*A rescue is the answer - There are plenty of folks that do well with the challenges of a rescue dog. If I may, putting a dog to sleep without going the distance, in my mind, is cruelty. Do we euthanise our attention deficit children? *


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## dogdaddy (Dec 13, 2011)

JulieK1967 said:


> This sickens me. This poor puppy is absolutely terrified and the OP is worried about Christmas. Do everyone, including yourself, a favor and don't buy anymore pets. You seem a little too selfish and unwilling to accept any responsibility for the pets you already have. A child was bitten by your dog. That's your fault, not the child's. The most decent thing you could do is find a local rescue who will take this poor puppy off your hands. You should probably also rehome your other dog, which seems to have had no training.
> 
> *I'm also shocked at the number of PTS suggestions. Can a young puppy not be worked with but other dogs rescued from horrific conditions can be rehabilitated?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

no, but a high percentage of children with bad social behaviour grow up to be adults with worse social behaviour.... Plus dogs are not children, this lady didn't give birth to this dog she bought it off a money hungry crazy person that ruined the dog completely and basically sold them a completely feral animal.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

It's the young age that is the problem. At 3 months puppies should think people are cool and the world should be interesting. Clearly the dog has had no socialisation at all, which means it has completely missed the critical period of socialisation, which means that all the work in the world isn't going to fix the dog. It might get a little better in the right hands, but finding someone who wants to work with a dog like this is going to be a challenge. And why put all that time and money and effort into this puppy, only to still have a dog that will most likely be fearful of most things, when you could be putting all that time and effort into a dog with a better prognosis?

If it was a 3 year old dog I wouldn't say pts, because an adult dog could have developed the problems over time, and could have been socialised properly as a puppy and simply been traumatised somewhere along the way. With a puppy this messed up, you also have to consider the possibility that it's genetic, and the puppy just isn't normal.

Euthanasia isn't "cruel". The dog won't suffer, it won't know that it's dead. Cruel is to keep this puppy alive and stress it every day in an attempt to fix it, which will most likely never happen. Resources are better spent elsewhere.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> It's the young age that is the problem. At 3 months puppies should think people are cool and the world should be interesting. Clearly the dog has had no socialisation at all, which means it has completely missed the critical period of socialisation, which means that all the work in the world isn't going to fix the dog. It might get a little better in the right hands, but finding someone who wants to work with a dog like this is going to be a challenge. And why put all that time and money and effort into this puppy, only to still have a dog that will most likely be fearful of most things, when you could be putting all that time and effort into a dog with a better prognosis?
> 
> If it was a 3 year old dog I wouldn't say pts, because an adult dog could have developed the problems over time, and could have been socialised properly as a puppy and simply been traumatised somewhere along the way. With a puppy this messed up, you also have to consider the possibility that it's genetic, and the puppy just isn't normal.
> 
> Euthanasia isn't "cruel". The dog won't suffer, it won't know that it's dead. Cruel is to keep this puppy alive and stress it every day in an attempt to fix it, which will most likely never happen. Resources are better spent elsewhere.


Thanks for responding. This isn't a forum where euthanasia is talked about lightly so I was really surprised to see the suggestions, esp. with such a young puppy and with such a clueless owner. What you say does make intellectual sense to me but it breaks my heart none the less.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

This is a reminder to any newbies reading, research breeders & only buy from reputable ones. This poor pup is so far behind


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

Contact a Chow rescue (or another one if there is no Chow rescue wherever you are) RIGHT AWAY, this minute! A foster home with more experience with damaged dogs might be able to salvage this poor pup, but the window is closing fast on the period during which socialization is easiest. You don't have any time to waste, seriously. I agree that this puppy is not dominant, it is TOTALLY TERRIFIED and fear aggression can be a tough thing to deal with. We spent several years rehabbing our fear aggressive ACD, who several clueless people before us handled in the worst possible way, thinking she was "dominant" and discplining her. She was downright dangerous and about to be killed...NOT HER FAULT at all and it's not your pup's fault that he's been so ill-served by everyone who has handled him to date. Give him some prayer of having a life and call a rescue, pronto. 

What a horrid "breeder"...what lead you to believe that you could get a purebred dog of any kind for $50?

And, your GSD mix has bitten a child, you are going to court and he's not a problem? That IS a problem.


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## zdonBGSU (May 7, 2011)

I really dont think someone with a biting dog, that bought a $50 pup from a BYB, and is ONLY posting because he wants his christmas back, is gonna do whats best for the pup by himself. Lets just hope he can take few hours of his time and get this pup to someone who gives a damn.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

This puppy's behavior is so extreme at such a young age that honestly I don't think that PTS is a completely unreasonable option in this situation. Could it potentially be worked with? Maybe. Is the OP the person to do it? Probably not. Is the OP the person to get the puppy into the proper situation where it's going to land with someone who CAN work with it? Maybe... maybe in hypothetical land all puppies magically end up with a happy ending in the perfect home perfectly suited to working with their problems, but here in the real world of limited resources a puppy like this is more likely to be shuttled around from home to home that is not up to its needs, probably continuing to bite people along the way.

And the comparisons to ADD children, dogs from other situations, are not really relevant... this puppy is this puppy, it is not an ADD child and not an adult dog from a hoarder.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

stationgirl said:


> No trainer/behaviourist with half a brain would take on a dog like that.


Actually there are a good many people who know what they're doing who would work with this pup. It is NOT past the socialization period and can indeed be rehabbed. I happen to have a dog who came from a similar situation that I have successfully worked with. 

OP, get to the training section and print out the "desensitizing a fearful dog" post. Substitute humans for inanimate objects and start working to gain the pups trust. You might also look for veterinary behaviorist to help you.


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## The Feather Duster (Apr 14, 2010)

Did the OP actually respond after his or her initial post? Someone suggested popcorn early in the thread and I had a similar thought myself. As far as I can tell, no one is "backseat modding" on this thread.

But, where is the OP in all of this? He or she seems to have disappeared.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> *no, but a high percentage of children with bad social behaviour grow up to be adults with worse social behaviour.... Plus dogs are not children*, this lady didn't give birth to this dog she bought it off a money hungry crazy person that ruined the dog completely and basically sold them a completely feral animal.


Ok for one Stationgirl you just compared adults and children to dogs but then go to say less than a sentence away that dogs are not children make up your mind....can you compare dogs to people or not? You can't have it both ways.

I vote for the dog not to be PTS because it is ONLY 3 months old. Most dogs don't even get to come out of the house much at that point because they are in their parvo shot stage. Yes human socialization would be better, but its not as if the dog is biting peoples limbs off! You notice that the owner is depicting poop spraying the walls, while I don't doubt its not gross I am pretty sure this guy is exaggerating the extent of the wounds as well. I just think it is pretty sad that everyone thinks this poor pup should die because no one has taken a moment to be understanding. I personally would take this dog on if I had the ability to house it. 

Miko was around 1 1/2 years old when we got him and he had many aggression issues. He was food aggressive to dogs and people and he attacked any dog that got too close to him. These are no small problems and after a year of working with him I can take him to the dog park and take away most of his favorite foods without any problem. He is no where near perfect but he was a whole lot older than this pup. I don't see why this pup couldn't turn out to be a normal healthy dog if given the chance.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Call the breeder, and ask her to come get the dog and refund your money. If she says no, talk to a lawyer. Next time you decide to get a dog do your homework first. Make sure that it's a good breeder who cares about health and temperament and meet the pup before you pay.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> No trainer/behaviourist with half a brain would take on a dog like that.


Really? So trainers and behaviorists just want the easy cases? I have known of some behaviorists who specialize in high risk animals, so I really have a hard time with this statement.


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

I don't believe in a hard and fast critical period of socialization. There's an optimal period where a dog will develop reactions to people and objects, but that doesn't mean the ability to change or socialize in the future is gone. If so, there would be no such thing as rehabilitation. There are, unfortunately, a good number of puppies that come from this type of situation, and some wind up behaving like this. We may not hear about it much on this forum because (1) many are probably never given the chance to rehabilitate, and are put down while still puppies, and (2) there are few who are willing to try to rehabilitate these pups.

This is just one post that may not give an accurate picture of the puppy's actual behavior issues. We don't know how the OP is actually treating the dog (is she scolding the dog harshly? is there hitting? is there yelling? could negative reinforcement be making the dog lash out whereas positive would not?) We know _none_ of this. Maybe the OP is treating the dog very, very well, but is misperceiving behavior as aggression, when it's more like a scared puppy whining and nipping with sharp puppy teeth. I've seen posts on here where people talk about their dogs fighting or lunging and, when explained further, it really seems like their dogs are playing.

What I'm afraid of, is if we put into this OP's head that PTS is the best option, she (and others lurking who may have a difficult pup) may take it to heart. And yet that opinion was given without all the information.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Hallie said:


> I've been volunteering at a busy high kill shelter for two years and we barely ever see puppies that bad. I agree, it'll be put down ASAP upon arrival to the shelter. You're only option, that'll help her and you without euthanasia, is to find a chow rescue or another rescue willing to take her in. Because she is young she can be rehabilitated. You're most likely misreading her behavior and labeling her incorrectly as aggressive. Puppies are rarely truly aggressive, she's simply scared... but she could certainly do some harm later or maybe even now. She needs someone experienced to help her, like a rescue.


I don't know how busy Chow rescue is. I do know that in a lot of rescues long term project dogs rarely get accepted, because in the months it could take to get this dog even approaching adoptable (if she can get that far) a number of more adoptable dogs get turned away and killed. Also, in many medium or larger breed rescues, there is a policy against taking biters because if the rescue takes a dangerous dog and then rehomes it, they can be held responsible.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdaddy said:


> *A Do we euthanise our attention deficit children? *


No. But sometimes the psychotic ones are institutionalized. I can't say if this pup is victim of a very callous and un-dog-savvy environment (which sounds quite possible from the original post) or if this is a seriously miswired puppy. (which also sounds quite possible). Therefore, i can't advise whether or not to euthanize. In general, I think it is very bad policy to advise PTS on an internet list. Because we are usually hearing the story from someone who is part of the issue, who is fed up, frightened, and may be grossly exaggerating the issues (sometimes unintentionally, and especially if they are going on about "dominance") or even sometimes in denial. To suggest ending the life as an option you should have a full history and have had a chance to observe the dog. I will say that this pup is, at the very least, going to be a lot of work. And if it has serious genetic temperament flaws even a lot of work may not save it. No breeder worth the title would use such a dog for breeding. A shelter would probably kill the dog within a day and a lot of rescues are going to look for better uses of their limited resources.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Take the dog to a vet for a full medical workup.
The poop problem could easily be medical versus some sort of "behavior" issue (And puppy do NOT poop out of spite...)
The dog could be in pain and reacting out of pain when you touch the spots that hurt
The vet might be able to prescribe calming medicine.
The vet can check for neurological problems.

And then, if you are unable or just don't care enough to try to work with a professional behaviorist, consider calling vets and trainers etc and asking if you can sign the dog over to them to prevent it from going to a shelter to be PTS.

Then, don't get another dog.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

lisahi said:


> I don't believe in a hard and fast critical period of socialization. There's an optimal period where a dog will develop reactions to people and objects, but that doesn't mean the ability to change or socialize in the future is gone.


The problem is that this isn't consistent with what we know about dogs. Forgetting what we've started thinking when we hear "socialization" (AHHH, my puppy has to meet 100 women, 100 children, 100 men a week all before vacinations?!?! WTF) we've learned through science (and I will go on a hunt for those articles at anyone's request) that puppies need human contact to bond with humans when they're young. I think (and I am talking out my butt here) that this period happens when puppies are very young, around 4 weeks or so. 

There's a difference between unsocialized puppies that have still interacted with and lived around people, even if those reactions weren't sufficient to get rid of fear towards strangers, and those that have never been handled by a person. Worse are those who have only been handled negatively by people. These dogs bond with their mom and their littermates and don't develop the same desire to bond with people that is, probably, the biggest trait responsible for our love for dogs. 

I wish I had more experience with extremely poorly socialized puppies (or, I think what I would term this puppy is "negatively socialized") to be able to lend support (or not) to things I've read, but I still get driven absolutely insane by "normal" puppies. Maybe some day. 

I do think it's worth having someone with some expertise come to evaluate this dog for "rehabability" before euthing it, as it's quite possible that this dog actually has a pretty good prognosis for recovery and just needs a few weeks in a dog-savvy home with lots of love and food. 

What I do know is that in cases like these, I generally echo GottaLoveMutts' (I keep wanting to call you "Kit") pretty callous opinion that there are so many well behaved dogs or dogs with a few minor issues that can easily be sorted out through some basic training and classical conditioning that it seems like a lot of resources to spend on a puppy with such major issues. 

It is difficult to spend a lot of time working in rescues and shelters without becoming disillusioned, jaded, and a little bit pessimistic.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Could it potentially be worked with? Maybe. Is the OP the person to do it? Probably not. Is the OP the person to get the puppy into the proper situation where it's going to land with someone who CAN work with it? Maybe... maybe in hypothetical land all puppies magically end up with a happy ending in the perfect home perfectly suited to working with their problems, but here in the real world of limited resources a puppy like this is more likely to be shuttled around from home to home that is not up to its needs, probably continuing to bite people along the way.


Well-said. I'm a realist. If this puppy lives, how many more bites will it inflict throughout its lifetime? It's just not worth the risk. If there were hoards of people lining up to work on troubled puppies, then maybe the right person could be found, but unfortunately the puppy market is generally saturated.


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## Lamora (Aug 16, 2011)

Looks like everone here has an opinion on this, some good, some sad, I wouldnt know what to do either. I have no real advice for this very sad situation. Nothing that hasnt been said already. All I am going to say is Good Luck, to the puppy and the owner, on whatever direction they decide to take. 

Oh and the dog bite? Good luck with that one too.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

I would contact a rescue to see if they can help take on the pup and decide what's best for the puppy's well being, if they can rehab or if it's going to be too difficult to do so. The OP should also report the 'breeder' and complain to whoever will listen - the spca, animal control, etc.

It may be better to put the pup down, humanely, and focus on pups who do not have that many issues or problems to overcome - shelters are putting down healthy, happy, friendly dogs every day.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> Put the puppy down, if you're going to court for a nip by your gsd, imagine what could happen if this pup got out. I think it's the kindest thing to do, also report the person you bought it off to the aspca, maybe take some video of the dog's behaviour for them to view. It would be the kindest thing to do to put her to sleep. As Hallie said about working in a shelter, I was behaviourist in a shelter last year and did not come across a dog as bad as you are describing and this was a very very high kill shelter.


You, my dear, are a bit nuts. This is a PUPPY for god's sake! Not an adult dog but a baby. She deserves a chance with someone more experienced. 

Makes me sick... Yes let's just put her down because some a**hole breeder neglected to care for his/her dogs properly and neglected ALL socialization. Crazy talk I tell ya.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> No trainer/behaviourist with half a brain would take on a dog like that.


Wow. You have so much wisdom and good information (sarcasm here). What exactly are your credentials to be making such calls?


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> no, but a high percentage of children with bad social behaviour grow up to be adults with worse social behaviour.... Plus dogs are not children, this lady didn't give birth to this dog she bought it off a money hungry crazy person that ruined the dog completely and basically sold them a completely feral animal.


What about all the other dogs whom have gone from horrible situations and made wonderful pets after some work?! What about puppymill dogs, abused dogs, fighting dogs? 
Oh forget about rehabbing them and any other dog/pup with some issues. I get what you are saying now- Let's just kill all of them. Let me tell you how well recieved that message will be among dog lovers and devotees. There are many whom have turned around frightened animals and those same animals have enriched their lives. Tell them that their former scaredy cats should have been/should be euthanized. Let them tell you where to get off at.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

lisahi said:


> I don't believe in a hard and fast critical period of socialization. There's an optimal period where a dog will develop reactions to people and objects, but that doesn't mean the ability to change or socialize in the future is gone. If so, there would be no such thing as rehabilitation. There are, unfortunately, a good number of puppies that come from this type of situation, and some wind up behaving like this. We may not hear about it much on this forum because (1) many are probably never given the chance to rehabilitate, and are put down while still puppies, and (2) there are few who are willing to try to rehabilitate these pups.
> 
> This is just one post that may not give an accurate picture of the puppy's actual behavior issues. We don't know how the OP is actually treating the dog (is she scolding the dog harshly? is there hitting? is there yelling? could negative reinforcement be making the dog lash out whereas positive would not?) We know _none_ of this. Maybe the OP is treating the dog very, very well, but is misperceiving behavior as aggression, when it's more like a scared puppy whining and nipping with sharp puppy teeth. I've seen posts on here where people talk about their dogs fighting or lunging and, when explained further, it really seems like their dogs are playing.
> 
> What I'm afraid of, is if we put into this OP's head that PTS is the best option, she (and others lurking who may have a difficult pup) may take it to heart. And yet that opinion was given without all the information.



OMG yes! There have been exaggerations in the story so why believe the part about the aggression entirely! We have no idea really without being there firsthand. Let's not condemn this puppy to death this quickly.


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## Max and Me (Aug 19, 2011)

I hope that you can find a rescue organization that can help this poor pup. It sounds like you already have more than you can handle with your other dog and need more time to supervise him/her. I have a dog iwth extreme fear issues and while she has improved by leaps and bounds I would never ever put her in a ituation with children. It is just not worth the risk. I can tell you from experience that it takes a looooong time to work with this sort of problem. In fact it can be a lifelong issue if the dog is wired wrong. I have dealt with it in adult dogs as well as puppies. They can become wonderfull dogs but only for someone with the time, patience, and willingness to work with them.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Britt & Bello said:


> I really find it highly depressing how many people are suggesting to put the puppy down. Poor thing is three months old and terrified out of her mind because some dumb*ss breeder doesn't really care about the dogs. Now granted the owner screwed up (pretty mightily). But that doesn't necessarily mean to tell them that because they screwed up (again) that the dog should die. They came looking for help didn't they?
> 
> So I second the sitting in the room with treats. Good treats, bits of hot dog, bacon, things that smell awesome. And toss them to her. Sit with your back to her so that she can't see her. Don't sit and stare at her as tempting as it is. To a terrified dog, being "stared down" like that makes it worse. It is going to take lots of time. At first it needs to consistently be the same person trying to make her feel safe. Get her into a routine even though you can't necessarily bring her outside. Deal with the fact that you will be picking up poop and cleaning up pee inside. It sucks I know. Don't yell at her. Don't punish her. Just come into the room at the same times everday. Give her food. New water. Toss treats. Speak gently and nicely. Don't worry about your Christmas season. You brought this little girl into your home and you owe it to her to try and make it better. Not take the easy way out and "put her to sleep."
> 
> Contact a behaviorist if you can. And if you really think you can't handle her then get her to a chow rescue. If you give her back to that breeder, you know as well as everybody here she stands no chance.


This^^^^
A 3 month old puppy CAN be socialized. You'd be amazed at how quickly it can come around, if you just sit nearby and read a book, and randomly toss treats. Stop trying to bathe it, and mess with him, until he is comfortable enough to approach you. Contain him in a small room, with potty pads in one area you can reach, and food and water in another area. Feed, and clean the area a couple times a day, and just sit nearby, ignoring him, except to toss him a high value treat randomly. Read out loud for a while to help him adjust to the sound of your voice. Sit outside the area and groom/pat your other dog, so he sees it's ok. Offer high value treats (like chicken, or cut up hot dogs) by hand without looking at the puppy. 
In about a week of this treatment the puppy will be much less fearful and probably approaching you. Then you can work on patting him, putting a collar and leash on him. (luring/rewarding with treats), and encouraging him to follow you.

Look at the poster that took in the 2 unsocialized puppies (one is named Riley, and he owns Piggy, the saint). He made those dogs into great, well behaved dogs. It can be done. Puppies are pretty forgiving, and a week of good experiences where they can let their terror subside, come around quickly. It sounds like the OP is trying to bathe, handle a terrified puppy. They will bite when backed into a corner and poop out of fear. Let the puppy be safe, and left alone (not handled) for a while, and just be around him, in a nonthreatening manner, and he'll come around.

I disagree that puppies are less likely to be rehabbed than adults. EVERYTHING is new to a puppy, but they are still at a stage of their lives where they learn from new experiences as opposed to having ingrained behaviors.
It took me 9 months to earn the trust of an adult feral dog. He would have bitten people if they trapped him. By going very slowly, he has never offered to bite, growl or do anything aggressive to me. However I have no doubt that if I had trapped him, and tried to handle him at first, he would have bitten. A fearful dog isn't necessarily an aggressive dog. But a fearful dog will bite when left no other option. I can guarentee that if the OP had the dog in a laundryrm or bathroom, with space for the puppy to move away, and just sat there, reading with treats, that the puppy would eventually approach her, to sniff and take treats.


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

I am firmly in the "find a rescue that will take the dog and rehab it" camp. However...rather than trying to "sell" the dog to recoup your lost $50, you should drop it off to the rescue people with a hefty donation to cover the costs of fostering, rehabilitating and rehoming the dog. (Don't underestimate what you're going to cost them. This dog will need vet care, food, training tools, for quite a while before it's ready to be rehomed. )

You chose to support the "breeder", you chose to accept responsibility for the animal. Now man up and be responsible about it.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

Raise your hand if you have a dog that some people on this thread would have recommended be PTS.

*Lifts hand*

Pepper is so young! There is hope for this dog. There are people who would work with and train this dog. If that means they have less than half a brain, I say more power to them. It may be a long haul, but a dog like this can still live a happy life. Find a rescue or another place for this dog who will give her half a chance.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

MooMoosMommy said:


> What about all the other dogs whom have gone from horrible situations and made wonderful pets after some work?! What about puppymill dogs, abused dogs, fighting dogs?
> Oh forget about rehabbing them and any other dog/pup with some issues. I get what you are saying now- Let's just kill all of them. Let me tell you how well recieved that message will be among dog lovers and devotees. There are many whom have turned around frightened animals and those same animals have enriched their lives. Tell them that their former scaredy cats should have been/should be euthanized. Let them tell you where to get off at.


On the contrary I have worked rehabilitating fighting dogs for years and a good percentage of them make a great recovery, I have also worked with abused and puppy mill dogs, these are completely different cases. although they are fearful they have had human contact and been around people (even if it's negative) so they are able to be reached a lot quicker, this dog however is basically a wild animal and has had no human contact whatsoever. I meant to ask the OP has your dad had his rabies vacc? If not he should probably go to the doc.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thracian said:


> Raise your hand if you have a dog that some people on this thread would have recommended be PTS.
> 
> *Lifts hand*
> 
> Pepper is so young! There is hope for this dog. There are people who would work with and train this dog. If that means they have less than half a brain, I say more power to them. It may be a long haul, but a dog like this can still live a happy life. Find a rescue or another place for this dog who will give her half a chance.


* Hand Raised!* Rescue dog ... 9months old when rescued ... beaten ... starved ... human aggressive ... Now almost 9 years old and good.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Thracian said:


> Raise your hand if you have a dog that some people on this thread would have recommended be PTS.
> 
> *Lifts hand*
> 
> Pepper is so young! There is hope for this dog. There are people who would work with and train this dog. If that means they have less than half a brain, I say more power to them. It may be a long haul, but a dog like this can still live a happy life. Find a rescue or another place for this dog who will give her half a chance.


Hand raised X 4.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

stationgirl said:


> On the contrary I have worked rehabilitating fighting dogs for years and a good percentage of them make a great recovery, I have also worked with abused and puppy mill dogs, these are completely different cases. although they are fearful they have had human contact and been around people (even if it's negative) so they are able to be reached a lot quicker, this dog however is basically a wild animal and has had no human contact whatsoever. I meant to ask the OP has your dad had his rabies vacc? If not he should probably go to the doc.


How do you know he has had no human contact? He may have had as much as most puppy mill dogs. If you take a fearful puppy and start trying to bathe him, and handle him, you will terrify him even more. He's not necessarily a wild animal. That's a stretch.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> How do you know he has had no human contact? He may have had as much as most puppy mill dogs. If you take a fearful puppy and start trying to bathe him, and handle him, you will terrify him even more. He's not necessarily a wild animal. That's a stretch.


The way the op describes him suggests in all behavioural ways, he is acting like one. Here in Australia no one would take on that dog. No one.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

stationgirl said:


> The way the op describes him suggests in all behavioural ways, he is acting like one. Here in Australia no one would take on that dog. No one.


He's acting like a terrified puppy that is having attention forced on him in the form of handling/baths.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

agree to disagree


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> The way the op describes him suggests in all behavioural ways, he is acting like one. Here in Australia no one would take on that dog. No one.


I guess that means your country is RIGHT and ours is WRONG. I find it sad that any group of people would condemn a young pup so quickly. 

And apparently being a 'trainer' has made you God being as you were able to diagnose this dog as unsalvageable over the net. A dear friend of mine whom is a behavioralist would never make an assessment like that over the phone let alone over the net. Then again he isn't God so doesn't know everything.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm not the only one who has diagnosed it as such. I don't say your country is wrong and mine is right, just that as a nation as a whole we don't waste resources and time on a dog like that when there are hundred who are way more easily rehabbed for pet homes. If a behaviourist was called for that dog in australia with what's described he would direct her to the nearest euth stop. 

I'm not God, I'm not a trainer any more as I've changed careers, this is just my opinion, you have yours and I have mine, we disagree yes. But from my experience and knowing as many behaviourists and trainers that I do, if the dog is like what is described they would say the same thing. No behaviourist is going to drop every other dog in need to spend every waking minute of the day trying to make this one a tiny little bit more tractable by throwing it treats.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Thracian said:


> Raise your hand if you have a dog that some people on this thread would have recommended be PTS.
> 
> *Lifts hand*
> 
> Pepper is so young! There is hope for this dog. There are people who would work with and train this dog. If that means they have less than half a brain, I say more power to them. It may be a long haul, but a dog like this can still live a happy life. Find a rescue or another place for this dog who will give her half a chance.


*Hand Raised*

Year old dog with a bite history, severe human aggressive, moderate dog reactivity, severe movement reactivity. Two trainers and one "behaviorist" recommended PTS.

A year later, he's a CGC, loves all people and dogs, and goes to Rally and Agility group classes. He's one of the best dogs I've had the pleasure of knowing. One trainer saw past the nastiness and knew how to teach my starved and beaten dog that the world wasn't such a horrible place and people=fun. 

IMO, it all depends on how much work, time, and money the OP would be willing to put into the dog. I don't agree with passing on the problem (and the liability) to someone else, so if the OP isn't willing or able to make such a commitment, it would be best to PTS. So many other dogs could be saved using the resources a rescue would have to use to rehab this dog.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> I'm not the only one who has diagnosed it as such. I don't say your country is wrong and mine is right, just that as a nation as a whole we don't waste resources and time on a dog like that when there are hundred who are way more easily rehabbed for pet homes. If a behaviourist was called for that dog in australia with what's described he would direct her to the nearest euth stop.
> 
> I'm not God, I'm not a trainer any more as I've changed careers, this is just my opinion, you have yours and I have mine, we disagree yes. But from my experience and knowing as many behaviourists and trainers that I do, if the dog is like what is described they would say the same thing. No behaviourist is going to drop every other dog in need to spend every waking minute of the day trying to make this one a tiny little bit more tractable by throwing it treats.


And yet condescendingly you say you all won't waste time and money yet WE WILL. Basically the jist of it.

I know in your lil world that this all seems right and fine and the way it should be. Thankfully in mine we offer chances for the 'worthless'. And in the case of a 'baby', a puppy- i am all for rehabbing if at all possible. 
Thank god for those whom are willing to work tirelessly to save the 'unsavables'. Many a GREAT dog came from these situations.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I've rescued quite a few highly human aggressive dogs and out of 20 only 3 could not be saved. That being said none were as bad as the OP is describing and I wouldn't have wasted my time. I'm sorry about your dog OP but PTS is my suggestion, seriously though get your dad to the doc if he hasn't had rabies vacc and keep your other dog separated as you don't know what this dog may be carrying.

I've rescued more than 20 aggressive dogs but those were the HIGHLY human aggressive ones. 

I'm a lovely person really I am, I just don't understand why someone would invest so much time into this dog if they are unable to stop a presumably well trained shep from biting someone then in all honesty this dog is going to be a nightmare and a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

*hand raised*

My old dog, Mandy, was rescued from a situation that was very similar. She was bred by the same breeder as our other Sheltie, who was an excellent breeder, but was lied to by the people who purchased her. They took her at 8 weeks, threw her into a barn with 15 or 20 other dogs and left her there to rot with virtually NO human contact, until she was 6 months old, when they bred her and then tossed her into a basement, again with no human contact, until her pups were 6 weeks old, at which point they were sold and she got tossed back into the barn. She was starved, and received almost NO human contact, and what she did receive was very, very negative. Our breeder tracked her down and found out about this, and was so horrified, she bought her back in order to get her out of there (puppy mill laws being almost non-existent back then). She then gave her to me, as she felt I and my family would be the perfect home for her. 

I was not a behaviorist or professional trainer, nor were my parents. Our 1 year old male Sheltie was the first indoor dog either of them had ever owned, and I was only 12 years old. Had we approached Mandy the way the OP did, I have NO DOUBT she would have reacted exactly as the OP's pup did. However, with all our inexperience, and my youth, we STILL managed to figure out that that would not be the right approach. I spent months coaxing Mandy out from under the table, from behind furniture, with bits of meat and warm, gentle praise. It took time and patience, but she grew to trust us, and became an AWESOME dog, and aside from a little shyness when meeting brand new people, you would NEVER have guessed that she had the kind of background she did. 

It IS possible to rehabilitate a dog like this, especially such a young pup, and I find the suggestions to put it to sleep disgusting. Given the lack of socialization, the pup's terror, and the OP's admitted rough handling, it's NO wonder it reacted the way it did. If the op is not willing to put in the time and does not have the patience to work with this pup, I would recommend finding a Chow rescue to take it in and work with it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I pretty much stay out a this stuff where people debate on a pup/dog that nobody has seen, heard or touched, and the OP appears to be out shopping for a new dog cause he/she has not answered anybody unless I've missed it. Couple things I'd like to know, there are 8 trillion dogs that could use some help (excuse the exaggeration) I'm not gonna say save the pup or don't save the pup as I care nothing about imaginary pups. What I would like to know is where are all these competent behaviorists that everybody talks about. The people that have saved their own dogs say it's taken months or years even, where is all this money coming from to pay these competent behaviorists. (If you can find them)

We're 90 miles south of Chicago and I'm in the dog business and people will call with some weird problems that I don't/won't deal with and I tell them to try a behaviourist and I don't have a clue as to where they are hiding. Just curious.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I don't know where they all necessarily are hiding or if they are hiding. I met Chris through my vet back when my rottweiler Gus was having aggression issues. Turned out he had an inoperable brain tumor but anyway... He actually didn't break the bank and he ended up taking Gus on himself because of my children.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

The competent ones are busy doing full time work in shelters or in their own business and thinly dispersed across the world... I highly doubt the OP will eb able to get a good behaviourist as they cost a bucket and the Op only shelled out $50 for a pup they didn't meet...


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

There are probably other resources out there but here would be a good place to start looking for a behaviorist.

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/ts/default.aspx


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

If you go the behaviourist route, just make sure you check their credentials, references and make sure they have airtight insurance.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

MooMoosMommy said:


> You, my dear, are a bit nuts. This is a PUPPY for god's sake! Not an adult dog but a baby. She deserves a chance with someone more experienced.
> 
> Makes me sick... Yes let's just put her down because some a**hole breeder neglected to care for his/her dogs properly and neglected ALL socialization. Crazy talk I tell ya.


So, since you must surely know someone who is more experienced, you should probably put that expert in contact with the original poster. If the pup goes back to the original breeder, she may use it to breed more crazy dogs. A shelter will probably euthanize immediatelty. A rescue likely doesn't want to invest that much time and money and volunteer burnout on an animal that potentially damaged. The OP would be on a steep learning curve to be successful. So, while we'd all love to see a happy ending to every tale, it's crazy talk to think that is how life goes.
As I've already said, I wouldn't recommend euthanasia based on what someone wrote on an internet list. Information may or may not be accurate. It may or may not be wildly exaggerated. We don't know. However, I find it MORE problematical if this description is accurate for a three month old puppy than if it was an feral adult. It's the nature of puppies to cope with unfamiliar experiences and for that level of neophobia to be present that early (if it is) would indicate to me that this might be a hardwired problem, and a little ball of fluff who will become more dangerous and unmanageable as she matures. I won't say "kill the dog" because what has been told may have little to do with what is actually happening. But I will recognize that finding someone with the resourses, knowledge and desire to take on this project dog may be pretty hard to do. And euthanasia IS one alternative on the table. If you don't have specific, concrete help to offer, it's not realistic to call people names for mentioning the elephant in the living room.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> The way the op describes him suggests in all behavioural ways, he is acting like one. Here in Australia no one would take on that dog. No one.


BS. I have family in Aus who would take this dog on. She is a wonderful wonderful trainer and only works with high risk cases now.

How old are you?

Now i do not think the OP should have this dog because it is fairly obvious that they won't put the work in but i do believe it is worth a chance to find someone who will take this pup on.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Likes the one above yours lol


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I don't reveal my age on online forums but I'm old enough to be out of university and in Full time employment. Those people must live in Victoria or QLD 

I joke I joke (old aussie joke that no one would get lmao)


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> I don't reveal my age on online forums but I'm old enough to be out of university and in Full time employment. Those people must live in Victoria or QLD
> 
> I joke I joke (old aussie joke that no one would get lmao)


Wow i thought you were in high school.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

A lot of people do, normally it's because I state my own opinion and am not swayed by what other people feel and my opinion differs from a lot of people. People read my posts like an obnoxious 14 year old. Nope I'm old, hehe


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> A lot of people do, normally it's because I state my own opinion and am not swayed by what other people feel and my opinion differs from a lot of people. People read my posts like an obnoxious 14 year old. Nope I'm old, hehe


Haha whatever you say.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Wishing I could "like" all your posts, katielou!


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I love this forum. Apparently healthy debate is good for the heart. I enjoy chatting with you all.


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

katielou said:


> BS. I have family in Aus who would take this dog on.


That's what I was thinking. I don't think anyone here can generalize their opinions on dog behaviour to their entire country.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> That's what I was thinking. I don't think anyone here can generalize their opinions on dog behaviour to their entire country.


There you go, bringing commons sense into the discussion again. 

Side note, awesome to see another Manitoban here, there are way too few of us here!


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

yeah sadly some Aussies are getting too soft and the bite/dog attack rate is going up steadily...


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

stationgirl said:


> yeah sadly some Aussies are getting too soft and the bite/dog attack rate is going up steadily...


So, what you're saying is that because not all Aussies are going to agree with you about everything to do with dogs, they're all soft and their dogs are all out of control? You're right, you do come off sounding like an obnoxious, egotistical 14yo. Maybe that should tell you something about your social skills.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> So, what you're saying is that because not all Aussies are going to agree with you about everything to do with dogs, they're all soft and their dogs are all out of control? You're right, you do come off sounding like an obnoxious, egotistical 14yo. Maybe that should tell you something about your social skills.


WHERE is that like button??


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

No I wasn't saying that! Gah I do really sound like a jerk! I do PR work on the side, stupid internet not conveying tone! No all I was saying that some aussies are going against sound advice form many shelters, dog groups and trainers and breeding aggressive dogs too aggressive dogs, pig hunting dogs as pets and then keeping them even though their aggression level is off the charts and pig hunting dogs are a no-go area to most trainers as they are huge and if trained to hunt pigs kill all other animals not in their packs, the prey drive is so strong in pups that they rarely make good household pet, especially bullarabX's but they're good looking so people take in these dogs, dogs like maremmas, really hard to train dogs keep them in city blocks and don't train them and don't exercise them and refuse to get rid of them or rehome them in a more appropriate area nd then the dog gets out and attacks someone. It's very sad.


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

Ok...I guess it was less about what you were saying and more about how you fit it into the conversation...and that the discussion about taking in breeds that aren't a good fit is in an other thread


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Until we meet again  peace out and whatever else the hippies say


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> So, since you must surely know someone who is more experienced, you should probably put that expert in contact with the original poster. If the pup goes back to the original breeder, she may use it to breed more crazy dogs. A shelter will probably euthanize immediatelty. A rescue likely doesn't want to invest that much time and money and volunteer burnout on an animal that potentially damaged. The OP would be on a steep learning curve to be successful. So, while we'd all love to see a happy ending to every tale, it's crazy talk to think that is how life goes.
> As I've already said, I wouldn't recommend euthanasia based on what someone wrote on an internet list. Information may or may not be accurate. It may or may not be wildly exaggerated. We don't know. However, I find it MORE problematical if this description is accurate for a three month old puppy than if it was an feral adult. It's the nature of puppies to cope with unfamiliar experiences and for that level of neophobia to be present that early (if it is) would indicate to me that this might be a hardwired problem, and a little ball of fluff who will become more dangerous and unmanageable as she matures. I won't say "kill the dog" because what has been told may have little to do with what is actually happening. But I will recognize that finding someone with the resourses, knowledge and desire to take on this project dog may be pretty hard to do. And euthanasia IS one alternative on the table. If you don't have specific, concrete help to offer, it's not realistic to call people names for mentioning the elephant in the living room.


This is really well said. I just don't think it's outrageous to have euthanasia on the table as an option.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> So, since you must surely know someone who is more experienced, you should probably put that expert in contact with the original poster. If the pup goes back to the original breeder, she may use it to breed more crazy dogs. A shelter will probably euthanize immediatelty. A rescue likely doesn't want to invest that much time and money and volunteer burnout on an animal that potentially damaged. The OP would be on a steep learning curve to be successful. So, while we'd all love to see a happy ending to every tale, it's crazy talk to think that is how life goes.
> As I've already said, I wouldn't recommend euthanasia based on what someone wrote on an internet list. Information may or may not be accurate. It may or may not be wildly exaggerated. We don't know. However, I find it MORE problematical if this description is accurate for a three month old puppy than if it was an feral adult. It's the nature of puppies to cope with unfamiliar experiences and for that level of neophobia to be present that early (if it is) would indicate to me that this might be a hardwired problem, and a little ball of fluff who will become more dangerous and unmanageable as she matures. I won't say "kill the dog" because what has been told may have little to do with what is actually happening. But I will recognize that finding someone with the resourses, knowledge and desire to take on this project dog may be pretty hard to do. And euthanasia IS one alternative on the table. If you don't have specific, concrete help to offer, it's not realistic to call people names for mentioning the elephant in the living room.


Funny how everyone will judge this pup from the OP's POV. This OP has a dog whom has bit and now decided to move it inside, bought a pup for $50 sight unseen because it was cheap, and believes the pup to be 'dominant'. And yet you trust this OP- Lol. 

I imagine her well trained GSD/Lab mix only bit because it was dominant too. Or maybe it could be that the dog was left unsupervised outside which is where it apparently lived fulltime before the 'incident' and maybe it did get teased, maybe not. My guess is that it is your normal, everyday 'well-trained' dog that we all meet sometime. 

So yeah I guess I do find it crazy that many are jumping on the bandwagon to have a pup they have never seen PTS for things the OP stated after making other comments that most (if not all) find irresponsible and more than a little ignorant. 

I'm not sorry that it makes me sick and I won't apologize for my opinion nor my feelings. Like it or leave it. What does concern me is the complete lack of empathy some seem to have for the pup. And many seem to conveniently forget it is a PUP.

And when I said 'you' I didn't exclusively mean you Paws. It was a general but realized after sending that it probably looked directed at you. 

I do understand that finding someone willing and able to rehab the pup isn't an easy feat but I would not be ready to PTS a young pup because of the OP's statements. 
I do believe that it is at least worth looking into instead of jumping to euthing right away. 

So many times 'feral' to one person is completely 'not feral' to another- it's a point that all should consider. Meaning this pup could be frightened and the way the OP is going about their handling of said pup is causing escalation, reactivity...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> And euthanasia IS one alternative on the table. If you don't have specific, concrete help to offer, it's not realistic to call people names for mentioning the elephant in the living room.


Agreed, it's a kill the messenger program.


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

sassafras said:


> This is really well said. I just don't think it's outrageous to have euthanasia on the table as an option.


 I don't disagree that it's a valid option. I do disagree with the notion that it's the only option (which I'm not attributing to you). It's realistic and possible that this dog can't be rehab'd....but at the same time, I don't think anyone has even begun to try. If the dog could spend a few days with someone capable of assessing its potential, and they then decided it wasn't worth the effort, that would make a lot more sense to me than just going off what the OP says and deciding the dog can't be saved.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I don't disagree that it's a valid option. I do disagree with the notion that it's the only option (which I'm not attributing to you). It's realistic and possible that this dog can't be rehab'd....but at the same time, I don't think anyone has even begun to try. If the dog could spend a few days with someone capable of assessing its potential, and they then decided it wasn't worth the effort, that would make a lot more sense to me than just going off what the OP says and deciding the dog can't be saved.


Agree 100%. Again. lol


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

sassafras said:


> This is really well said. I just don't think it's outrageous to have euthanasia on the table as an option.


As an option... YES but others have said TO EUTHANIZE. An option is understandable.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Funny how everyone will judge this pup from the OP's POV. This OP has a dog whom has bit and now decided to move it inside, bought a pup for $50 sight unseen because it was cheap, and believes the pup to be 'dominant'. And yet you trust this OP- Lol.
> 
> I imagine her well trained GSD/Lab mix only bit because it was dominant too. Or maybe it could be that the dog was left unsupervised outside which is where it apparently lived fulltime before the 'incident' and maybe it did get teased, maybe not. My guess is that it is your normal, everyday 'well-trained' dog that we all meet sometime.
> 
> ...


Well, since you are quoting me, I have to assume you either didn't read or didn't understand my post. I actually pretty much stated that I didn't put a great deal of stock in the OP, and wouldn't recommend euthanasia on a dog I hadn't personally met and hadn't taken a full history on. Nice try at deflection though. The point is, there may not be a lot of good options for this pup, unless you have something more than name calling to offer. Perhaps you could take her?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> No trainer/behaviourist with half a brain would take on a dog like that.


Hey girl what up. I'm not a trainer, and I'm not a behaviorist, but I guess I got half a brain. I have two RGers (one that has bitten twice drawing blood and was involved in a dog fight with injury over the SMELL of food that was not physically there), a poorly bred mill dog that bit me in the face and was shut down and terrified when I got him at nearly 3 years old, a gal aggressive towards children, and just recently brought home a girl that was deemed feral and due to be euth'd the day I took her home- I am pretty certain that she will be rehabbed and able to be adopted.

Anyhow, any thing suggested in this thread is viable. The reasons behind some of these suggestions- putting down a puppy for supposedly being too far gone- are not. I don't know this puppy, I don't know what I could do with this puppy, and I don't know what any one else could do with this puppy. I think it sucks any way you slice it because he's a puppy. Puppies should not be this way. Dogs should not be this way, but not that young. The OP could do their best to find a rescue prepared to deal with him but rescues aren't exactly lining up to take dogs with extreme issues, let alone have the resources to do so. Lots of people got dogs with issues they're looking to leave at rescues after all. If it were me, and I had a full brain and wasn't going to see the puppy through myself, I'd do my best to find such a place or a behaviorist but if I could not personally do any thing euthanasia would be the only option.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

OK. I'm done discussing it, I voiced my opinion, anything else will lead to negativity which is not useful. I'm very happy for your dogs though, they sounds like they scored with you as their owner


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> Well, since you are quoting me, I have to assume you either didn't read or didn't understand my post. I actually pretty much stated that I didn't put a great deal of stock in the OP, and wouldn't recommend euthanasia on a dog I hadn't personally met and hadn't taken a full history on. Nice try at deflection though. The point is, there may not be a lot of good options for this pup, unless you have something more than name calling to offer. Perhaps you could take her?


Yeah. I realized that it did make it sound directed at you and did edit that but since you seem overly interested in calling me out on my name calling...

I've pretty much only got name calling to go on atm as we are going through a rough road financally atm (just so you know). Would love to be able to give it a go though if resources weren't such an issue atm. Then again I'm not a trainer so what could I do for this dog whom hasn't had a chance yet? 

The know it all and Mommy knows best attitudes make me ill. As you stated- without first hand knowledge you wouldn't immediately recommend euthanasia- just as many have been saying (maybe not so eloquently) but just the same.... BUT others have been adamant that the dog needs to be PTS. Everyone with a different opinion is basically 'dumb' and willing to waste resources and time. 

How's that for tossing about names? But that's okay because I, personally, don't care what they say about my thoughts or opinions. I just want to make certain that others don't go with the same answer for their pups and kill what could otherwise be a normal puppy. Many people I have known have thought puppies to be 'aggressive' when playing because of snarls and growls. I have heard it time and time again- My puppy attacked me. 

And don't even think that many people are smart enough to distinguish one from the other because many aren't.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

But anyway I'm done. First time I had been back in a few weeks and now already regretting it mostly.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Funny how everyone will judge this pup from the OP's POV. This OP has a dog whom has bit and now decided to move it inside, bought a pup for $50 sight unseen because it was cheap, and believes the pup to be 'dominant'. And yet you trust this OP- Lol.


I'm not sure we have another option. Do you have any first hand experience with this dog that would give us more info? If you don't, the info from the OP is the ONLY POV to go off of.

If we didn't take the OP's POV into consideration we wouldn't discuss any dog issues. Last time I checked people don't go out and get other people in RL to post on their thread for other POV's. 

Yes, we shouldn't put to much into what the OP is saying, but its all we have to work off of.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

stationgirl said:


> I don't reveal my age on online forums but I'm old enough to be out of university and in Full time employment. Those people must live in Victoria or QLD
> 
> I joke I joke (old aussie joke that no one would get lmao)



Which tells me you're not old enough to have done ANY serious dog training or rehab like you claim you have. Furthermore, if, as your name suggests you've mostly lived on a "station" you've had damn little experience with what people in larger communities in more urban areas might have access to as far as behavioral resources.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I've lived in a America and worked there and yes I have lived in a small town and trained there but I was the only port of call for most of the town, so maybe I'm not citified but I know what I know, it might not be as much as you or many people on here and I admit that. But I still suggest the dog be euthed.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

stationgirl said:


> I've lived in a America and worked there and yes I have lived in a small town and trained there but I was the only port of call for most of the town, so maybe I'm not citified but I know what I know, it might not be as much as you or many people on here and I admit that. But I still suggest the dog be euthed.



Really? What part of America?


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Virginia. I'm not telling you which shelter as I don't know people here and I'm private.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I would also just like to say that I'm not a liar, I do not lie on public forums, there's no point, yes my life is absurd, it's hardly normal and I don't know what I'm doing year in and year out and it's constant surprise. But I tell the truth I don't lie. So if you're trying to catch me out in a lie then it won't work. I'm a private person and won't give you details but I am on the level, just a strange person.


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## Britt & Bello (Apr 14, 2011)

I understand euthanasia being on the table as an option. I just wish it was at the very edge of the table. I don't support the puppy being put to sleep because even though we have "plenty of healthy happy dogs" that may not need training like this chow pup does, waiting for homes everyday in shelters, this girl deserves a chance. Not just killed off because humans screwed her up. It wasn't her fault and I don't think she deserves the immediate vote of death because of it (for those that seem to think every other option fell off the table). And just because you stationgirl might think that nobody is willing to help her doesn't mean it is true. Hell, if I was close and could afford another dog, I would be willing.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

But you're not...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> But you're not...


What is even your point any more?


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

about the same as yours


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Actually my point is TWAB. heaps of people would be saying their woulda should couldas, their if onlys and maybe ifs but I highly doubt anyone would take this dog willingly into their home with its issues, especially without it being vaccinated or health tested.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I thought you were trying to refute the fact people thought you were posting as if though you were a juvenile.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I thought you were trying to refute the fact people thought you were posting as if though you were a juvenile.


Oh I don't care about that. I bounce, I'm over it.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> Actually my point is TWAB. heaps of people would be saying their woulda should couldas, their if onlys and maybe ifs but I highly doubt anyone would take this dog willingly into their home with its issues, especially without it being vaccinated or health tested.


WHO wouldn't? I have no idea where the OP is from, but I sure have offered on this forum before and spoke with someone via private message about taking their dog but the situation turned out to be fake. The dog I currently have in my home- that WAS going to be euthanized- is not vaccinated or health tested. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The point every one was making is that there ARE people who do it and that you are wrong.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would love to help if the OP came back and there was a way to get the dog this direction. I would just at least like to get some dog savvy people to look at this dog before it was put down. I just don't buy the story to be frank. It reeks of terrified dog and improper handling. I'm not going to say either way if the dog can be saved or not, but it is worth a shot to me.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Vaccinated against rabies, the OP has no idea where this dog came form, it bites people breaks skin and could be a carrier of ANYTHING...

The OP is probably doing this on purpose to make us all fight. Let's just stop. They're probably sitting back and laughing


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Britt & Bello said:


> I understand euthanasia being on the table as an option. I just wish it was at the very edge of the table. I don't support the puppy being put to sleep because even though we have "plenty of healthy happy dogs" that may not need training like this chow pup does, waiting for homes everyday in shelters, this girl deserves a chance. Not just killed off because humans screwed her up. It wasn't her fault and I don't think she deserves the immediate vote of death because of it (for those that seem to think every other option fell off the table). And just because you stationgirl might think that nobody is willing to help her doesn't mean it is true. Hell, if I was close and could afford another dog, I would be willing.


You'd have to consider the possibility that it wasn't humans who messed the dog up though. Some dogs aren't born normal. I know good breeders who have had one puppy out of a litter of normal puppies be aggressive, and have to be managed for aggression its whole life. It's no one's fault, it's just bad genes.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

stationgirl said:


> Vaccinated against rabies, the OP has no idea where this dog came form, it bites people breaks skin and could be a carrier of ANYTHING


Rabies is fairly rare, it's not something I would worry about. And what else, exactly, could the dog be carrying? Most dogs adopted from shelters or off the street or bought from less-than-great breeders aren't vaccinated or tested (? Not sure what you think they should be tested for), it's just kind of normal.

If the pup were a cat, I'd say this is perfectly normal behavior. Scared cats act like that. Chows are kind of cat-like, I guess. I don't think it necessarily means there's anything wrong with the dog, probably with time and gentle handling, she would be fine. But if they keep scaring the pup, obviously nothing will get better. I wish for the best, but most people are dopes with their pets (as evidenced by the millions of animals murdered in shelters). So probably it's not going to work out for this poor pup.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> Vaccinated against rabies, the OP has no idea where this dog came form, it bites people breaks skin and could be a carrier of ANYTHING...
> 
> The OP is probably doing this on purpose to make us all fight. Let's just stop. They're probably sitting back and laughing


Yeah, my girl isn't vaccinated for rabies either. Or any thing at all. She wasn't spayed when she got here and she's heartworm positive. She wouldn't let any one get near her and she's terrified of most every thing, and I have no idea where she came from beyond "stray" before the shelter. So what about people not taking in dogs like that?


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

You have some anger issues. I have never been rude to you, you're very abrupt and come across as a very angry person. I'm going to pretend I can't see your posts anymore. I think that will be best.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I have anger issues because you're wrong and I'm disproving your point and you don't like it? There is also an ignore button on this forum. I'm not sure where, but I believe you can find it through my profile.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I tried reading the whole thread, but I'm sure I missed a couple.....has the OP been back? Any decisions made?

A couple things struck me reading through.... Perhaps the behavior isn't quite as bad as the OP is presenting it, I'm just thinking of all of the people (myself almost included) that have come on the forum with "aggressive" puppies. No doubt that this pup has bigger issues than simple puppyhood, but perhaps it isn't as crazy as the OP feels it is. PTS should absolutely be the last option, but if the puppy is that nuts it is a real possibility. 

If it isn't PTS, I strongly believe it should be fixed as soon as is healthy to do so, if there are possible genetic problems that could be causing these behavior issues the last thing the world needs is for that one to be bred! 

And please.....don't be too hard on the OP for not doing a ton of research before getting a dog. For those who have never had issues the idea of researching breeders etc is a bit of a new idea. Yes, it should be done, but it doesn't occur to everyone (though having one dog already it probably should have but hey....benefit of the doubt I guess) At least he has come to ask questions....its a start.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Yeah, my girl isn't vaccinated for rabies either. Or any thing at all. She wasn't spayed when she got here and she's heartworm positive. She wouldn't let any one get near her and she's terrified of most every thing, and I have no idea where she came from beyond "stray" before the shelter. So what about people not taking in dogs like that?


I have a Cocker mix that was found as a stray at about 5 months old. I had to trap him next to a building to catch him. When I picked him up, he peed all over, struggled, growled/screamed, and bit anything he could reach. It took 2 weeks to get him to stay in the same room as me and eat. He's never growled or bitten since then, and has turned in to a happy little dog, that is a couch potato. He is still scared of strangers at first, but if they sit down, he will go over and see them.

He probably should have just been put to sleep also, since he sounds a lot like the OP's dog.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Actually my point is TWAB. heaps of people would be saying their woulda should couldas, their if onlys and maybe ifs but I highly doubt anyone would take this dog willingly into their home with its issues, especially without it being vaccinated or health tested.


If my rental agreement did not limit me to one dog, and if the OP would come back, I would ABSOLUTELY take this dog and work with it. You really need to stop making blanket statements about things you clearly do not know that much about.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> If my rental agreement did not limit me to one dog, and if the OP would come back, I would ABSOLUTELY take this dog and work with it. You really need to stop making blanket statements about things you clearly do not know that much about.


That kinda proves my point, If only or maybe if... the bottom line is you can't take the dog. Which is my point


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> I have a Cocker mix that was found as a stray at about 5 months old. I had to trap him next to a building to catch him. When I picked him up, he peed all over, struggled, growled/screamed, and bit anything he could reach. It took 2 weeks to get him to stay in the same room as me and eat. He's never growled or bitten since then, and has turned in to a happy little dog, that is a couch potato. He is still scared of strangers at first, but if they sit down, he will go over and see them.
> 
> He probably should have just been put to sleep also, since he sounds a lot like the OP's dog.


Well, you sound like a very angry person for what you've done. No one takes in dogs like that if you didn't get the memo. And since no one can do it for the OP who has posted once without seeking further assistance here, clearly no one does it at all. xD


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> That kinda proves my point, If only or maybe if... the bottom line is you can't take the dog. Which is my point


Actually it doesn't. You stated that no one would be WILLING to take the dog. Willing and able are too vastly different things. I can post the definitions of the two words, if that will help you. 

I may not be able, others will. But to say that no one would be willing, is patently false.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

But you arent getting that ... THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD TAKE THE DOG .... but the OP hasn't come back ... and they have no idea where the dog is .... You are really bad at seeing what people are saying, because there are people here (TWAB) and others out there that would take this dog or at least help with it. You are wrong. Period.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

they all said they can't, I hope they find someone, but in reality I don't think they will, especially not this time of year. I love dogs I hope someone will pop up out of the woodwork but my realist nature says they won't.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> they all said they can't


Which again, has nothing to do with your earlier statement which was that no would be WILLING. you can't go back and change the meaning of what you said, doesn't work that way. Again, if you need help deciphering the difference between the meaning of willing and able, I'm more than happy to help.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Just because nobody here (a small sample of people) cant take the dog doesnt mean there isnt somebody else that can. Also even if they cant take the dog, somebody can offer help, you know, out of the goodness of their heart ....


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

not willing or not able, either way the dog isn't rehomed so far (losing sight of the OP a bit guys?)


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> not willing or not able, either way the dog isn't rehomed so far (losing sight of the OP a bit guys?)


Nope, just holding you accountable for what you SAY. You have been insisting that no one would be WILLING to help this dog, which is patently false, as we have demonstrated. And, there HAVE been several posters, such as TWAB, who HAVE offered to work with the dog, if the OP ever comes back. You have conveniently been ignoring those posts, probably because they directly contradict your claims.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I don't have much hope for this dog, but because it's christmas I hope he magically gets healed of all negativity. Happy now?

but seriously, i do hope he finds someone to take him on, I just don''t hold much hope that he will. Especially not this time of year.


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> not willing or not able, either way the dog isn't rehomed so far (losing sight of the OP a bit guys?)


How is talking about the dog being rehomed (a possible alternative to being PTS) getting OT?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm just going to quote myself...



Laurelin said:


> I would love to help if the OP came back and there was a way to get the dog this direction. I would just at least like to get some dog savvy people to look at this dog before it was put down. I just don't buy the story to be frank. It reeks of terrified dog and improper handling. I'm not going to say either way if the dog can be saved or not, but it is worth a shot to me.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Jare said:


> How is talking about the dog being rehomed (a possible alternative to being PTS) getting OT?


I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about kumasmom targeting every word I used.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I'm just going to quote myself...


*snaps for laurelin*

p.s. have missed your updates. miss your crew.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about kumasmom targeting every word I used.


Nope, only the ones where you try to change the meaning of words you used because people refute your claims.


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about kumasmom targeting every word I used.



She wasn't....Shes correct. They are completely different things. Your original point was that no one would/could take the dog because of the issues it has. When that isn't the case at all.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

And if they're near you Laurelin and accept that help, I could not transport from this way but I could donate and help set up a possible transport.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Nope, only the ones where you try to change the meaning of words you used because people refute your claims.


I never tried to change the meanings, you assumed that's what I was going to and thus jumped the gun. As I stated in previous posts, it doesn't matter whether you are not willing or not able it remains the same outcome for the dog, it cannot live with you and thus it remains where it is until it is either rehomed with someone else or PTS. I'm not going to start yelling and screaming and overreacting and cussing, 'tis not my style. I'm not biting, never have, never will. Maybe it's because I'm listening to Norah Jones and I'm all mellow. I said what I meant, and you would rarely take a dog like that into your home if you were able yet no willing.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Jare said:


> She wasn't....Shes correct. They are completely different things. Your original point was that no one would/could take the dog because of the issues it has. When that isn't the case at all.


I didn't say that. I said people are singing their woulda, shoulda couldas, if only and maybe ifs about why they can't take the dog, but the fact remains the same that the dog remains where it is. I never said anything about them choosing not to take the dog because of its behaviour.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Once again you are ignoring the fact that many people people said IF THEY WERE ABLE they WOULD take the dog into their home. And why does the dog have to be either rehomed or pts .... why cant it be worked with? You are making a whole bunch of statements that have been disproved.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I never said anything about them choosing not to take the dog because of its behaviour.


Um really? Are you denying saying this then?


> but I highly doubt anyone would take this dog willingly into their home with its issues, especially without it being vaccinated or health tested.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

stationgirl said:


> I said what I meant, and *you would rarely take a dog like that into your home if you were able* yet no willing.


^^ *message too short*


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

Are you completely blind to the TWO POSTS RIGHT UP THERE ^^^ *points* stating if the OP comes back the dog can be taken somewhere else?

Oh sorry, edited to add they are actually on page seven.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I believe I said "issues" not behaviour. 

Miranda, that's what I was SAYING. they are saying if they COULDA they WOULDA but they CAN'TA! You basically summarised my whole post... I feel as if I'm speaking Dutch


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I believe I said "issues" not behaviour.


LOL, that's all I have to say.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Miranda, that's what I was SAYING. they are saying if they COULDA they WOULDA but they CAN'TA! You basically summarised my whole post... I feel as if I'm speaking Dutch


Except several people have said that they CAN take the dog, if the OP just comes back. Really do need to work on that reading comprehension.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

actually ... laurelin stated she would and can if the dog can get to her ......but you seem to be just ... throwing that point out


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

gosh. I think you guys just kinda like the sound of your own voices and "rightness". I'll leave you to it. have good day everyone. Merry Christmas:wave:


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## Britt & Bello (Apr 14, 2011)

stationgirl said:


> you would rarely take a dog like that into your home if you were able yet no willing.


I'm not liking this collective "you" thing, you have going on. Speak for yourself and yourself only. And all of this mess could have been avoided. No one would be arguing with what you are saying. 


To the poster who said it could be genetics (being too lazy to go grab and quote), this is very well could be what happened. Which wouldn't be surprising if the dog had horrible genetics and was overly aggressive because of it. If that was the case then yes, I would feel the best thing to do would be to put the pup to sleep.


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> I believe I said "issues" not behaviour.


Oh sweet baby Jesus, you have got to be kidding.

Its ISSUE its its BEHAVIOR.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, no, in that bit Miranda quoted you said that even if someone COULD, they wouldn't be willing to. Which clearly isn't true. 

I'm still wondering about what my street dogs of unknown background should have been tested for. . .now I'm worried since they've never had any tests done (except for heartworm which isn't contagious to humans).  Awful risky to have taken them into my home without any vaccinations or testing, I s'pose.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> gosh. I think you guys just kinda like the sound of your own voices and "rightness". I'll leave you to it. have good day everyone. Merry Christmas


Well, if just liking the sound of our own voices and "rightness" is calling you on your faulty logic and holding you to what you actually said, then I guess you're right.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

we dont like hearing ourselves actually ... we just like pointing out that what you have said is utter nonsense and therefore not sound advice to give to the OP


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Sorry it's an australian term, when you talk about yourself over here you refer to yourself as you.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Guys there are millions of other dogs out there that need your help more than some hypothetical nutcase poorly bred puppy belonging to god knows who coming from god knows where. just saying your time could be better spent.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

... we are spending time on the forum already .... this was on the forum ... i dont understand your logic here


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> Guys there are millions of other dogs out there that need your help more than some hypothetical nutcase poorly bred puppy belonging to god knows who coming from god knows where. just saying your time could be better spent.


Why bother with those dogs either if this one isn't worth it? I don't see your point.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

no I mean your valuable dog expertise (not being sarcastic you guys really seem to be good dog people) could be better spent on other more worthy dogs than a dog that potentially doesn't exist and sounds incredibly fear aggressive belonging to a person no one here knows.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

thats true ... but what if the pup does exist and is incredibly fear aggressive belonging to a person no one here knows ..... then we could be saving it .... thats why we spend our time here


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Jare said:


> Why bother with those dogs either if this one isn't worth it? I don't see your point.


Yes let's be melodramatic. This dog probably doesn't even exist, that's what I'm getting at, this person may have just created this thread to cause a rift and watch. I do not know. We're getting all worked up about a hypothetical puppy form an undisclosed location.



Miranda16 said:


> thats true ... but what if the pup does exist and is incredibly fear aggressive belonging to a person no one here knows ..... then we could be saving it .... thats why we spend our time here


I understand that, but we have no actual proof that it does and until the OP turns up with tangible evidence of said pup then we are arguing over a shadow.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll grant you that this puppy is hypothetical and may not even exist. . .but what makes one life more "worthy" than the next? If we gave up and killed all the dogs who are "poorly-bred nutcases", we wouldn't have very many dogs left. I'm sure my dogs are poorly bred. And were nutcases at some point in their lives.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Until we meet again peace out and whatever else the hippies say





> OK. I'm done discussing it, I voiced my opinion, anything else will lead to negativity which is not useful. I'm very happy for your dogs though, they sounds like they scored with you as their owner





> gosh. I think you guys just kinda like the sound of your own voices and "rightness". I'll leave you to it. have good day everyone. Merry Christmas


So, at what point do you stop talking about it, and actually leave the thread? Just curious.


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## Britt & Bello (Apr 14, 2011)

One day a man was walking along a beach. Off in the distance he could see a young boy going back and forth between the surf's edge and and the beach. Back and forth the boy went. As the man approached, he could see that there were hundreds of jellyfish stranded on the sand as the result of the natural action of the tide. The man was struck by the the apparent futility of the task. There were far too many jellyfishfish. Many of them were sure to die. As he approached, the boy continued the task of picking up jellyfish one by one and throwing them back into the sea. As he came up to the boy he said, "Why bother, the majority are going to die anyway." The boy looked at the man. He then bent down and picked up one more jellyfish, and threw it back into the sea. He turned back to the man and said,

"It made a difference to that one"

Because it would make a difference to the Chow pup.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> no I mean your valuable dog expertise (not being sarcastic you guys really seem to be good dog people) could be better spent on other more worthy dogs than a dog that potentially doesn't exist and sounds incredibly fear aggressive belonging to a person no one here knows.


This point comes up often, with resources and the like within rescues, and there is no real answer for me beyond that I think when dogs are damaged so badly they cannot function as normal dogs it sucks. And I want them to know what it is like to be a dog, in a safe environment, and maybe get a chance to live a different life than what they have been living. I'm paying out of my own pocket for all of the medical treatment my foster requires and getting a behaviorist involved on my own dime as well. I could do lots with that money, and probably pay for other dogs, and I can't refute that point but I also can't help how I feel. I feel she deserves a chance, and this is it. If it doesn't end up where she is acceptable to adopt out safely than she will be euthanized, but not after this chance.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And I don't think people are necessarily getting worked up about this particular puppy, but about the general attitude of "kill it, it's not worth your time anyway".


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> Yes let's be melodramatic. This dog probably doesn't even exist, that's what I'm getting at, this person may have just created this thread to cause a rift and watch. I do not know. We're getting all worked up about a hypothetical puppy form an undisclosed location.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that, but we have no actual proof that it does and until the OP turns up with tangible evidence of said pup then we are arguing over a shadow.



A forum full of dog lovers try to help a dog, you say?


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

so what if we dont have proof. we provide good advice to people that might need it and refute the bad advice and clarify as much as we can.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'll grant you that this puppy is hypothetical and may not even exist. . .but what makes one life more "worthy" than the next? If we gave up and killed all the dogs who are "poorly-bred nutcases", we wouldn't have very many dogs left. I'm sure my dogs are poorly bred. And were nutcases at some point in their lives.


Hi Willowy. 

I'm not talking about "worth" here, I'm talking about potential of said dog. Quality of life for said dog. If the dog IS as bad as the OP suggests then travelling across how many states will help its psyche how? Going into yet another knew home will help it become less fearful, how? If the dog's behaviour IS being EXAGGERATED then as Laurelin suggested a behaviourist should be on seen to give an assessment and then steps taken. But whilst all this trouble is going on for a pup that is in a terrible state, many more pups closer by to people offering are being ignored. I think the dog is made up, I really do, I kind of hope it is. But if not I hope it can be either PTS or rehomed with a very dog savvy person who can perhaps make its life less crappy.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> This point comes up often, with resources and the like within rescues, and there is no real answer for me beyond that I think when dogs are damaged so badly they cannot function as normal dogs it sucks. And I want them to know what it is like to be a dog, in a safe environment, and maybe get a chance to live a different life than what they have been living. I'm paying out of my own pocket for all of the medical treatment my foster requires and getting a behaviorist involved on my own dime as well. I could do lots with that money, and probably pay for other dogs, and I can't refute that point but I also can't help how I feel. I feel she deserves a chance, and this is it. If it doesn't end up where she is acceptable to adopt out safely than she will be euthanized, but not after this chance.



I myself have done the same thing, I was living in America working at a shelter and found a dog on the shelter list back in australia and pulled a million strings to adopt her from overseas, I don't know how we managed it but we saved her 1/2 an hour before she was due to be PTS. The amount of money I spent on her was ridiculous, but I wanted to save her. I understand your point of view.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I myself have done the same thing, I was living in America working at a shelter and found a dog on the shelter list back in australia and pulled a million strings to adopt her from overseas, I don't know how we managed it but we saved her 1/2 an hour before she was due to be PTS. The amount of money I spent on her was ridiculous, but I wanted to save her. I understand your point of view.


And yet you continue to argue AGAINST doing exactly that here. **head scratch**


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> And yet you continue to argue AGAINST doing exactly that here. **head scratch**


This isn't EXACTLY that. This dog is HIGHLY fear aggressive and possibly imaginary. I had tangible proof that my dog (now asleep on my bed) was in fact real.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

stationgirl said:


> Hi Willowy.
> 
> I'm not talking about "worth" here, I'm talking about potential of said dog. Quality of life for said dog. If the dog IS as bad as the OP suggests then travelling across how many states will help its psyche how? Going into yet another knew home will help it become less fearful, how? If the dog's behaviour IS being EXAGGERATED then as Laurelin suggested a behaviourist should be on seen to give an assessment and then steps taken. But whilst all this trouble is going on for a pup that is in a terrible state, many more pups closer by to people offering are being ignored. I think the dog is made up, I really do, I kind of hope it is. But if not I hope it can be either PTS or rehomed with a very dog savvy person who can perhaps make its life less crappy.


And being killed will help her psyche how? 

And, yeah, every time someone helps an animal, they could have used those resources to help another animal. Does that mean they shouldn't have helped the first one?


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> This isn't EXACTLY that. This dog is HIGHLY fear aggressive and possibly imaginary. I had tangible proof that my dog (now asleep on my bed) was in fact real.


Here is how I see it 

Try to help and dog >> Find out it isn't real >>> be disappointed, darn, oh well.

Don't bother helping the dog>>>Find out the dog IS real>>>Dog end up dead when it could have been saved.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Until we meet again peace out and whatever else the hippies say
> OK. I'm done discussing it, I voiced my opinion, anything else will lead to negativity which is not useful. I'm very happy for your dogs though, they sounds like they scored with you as their owner
> gosh. I think you guys just kinda like the sound of your own voices and "rightness". I'll leave you to it. have good day everyone. Merry Christmas
> So, at what point do you stop talking about it, and actually leave the thread? Just curious.


Just quoting myself since I'm lazy.  You never answered my question, at what point do you stop talking about and actually leave the thread? Just curious?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

stationgirl said:


> I myself have done the same thing, I was living in America working at a shelter and found a dog on the shelter list back in australia and pulled a million strings to adopt her from overseas, I don't know how we managed it but we saved her 1/2 an hour before she was due to be PTS. The amount of money I spent on her was ridiculous, but I wanted to save her. I understand your point of view.


Mine was set to be euthanized the day I took her home. She had been in the shelter for four months and was deemed unadoptable, but I felt she could be. She's been here three weeks and has now been spayed and will be starting her heartworm treatment. She responds very positively to me. Almost puppy like in her excitement to see me and will eat any thing I hand her. She's fearful but has proven thus far to not be bite risk. We have a long road ahead of us, but I feel she is worth my time and energy.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

stationgirl said:


> This isn't EXACTLY that. This dog is HIGHLY fear aggressive and possibly imaginary. I had tangible proof that my dog (now asleep on my bed) was in fact real.


 Every cat I own is "HIGHLY fear aggressive". Granted, that's normal for cats, but maybe it is for Chows as well. It's the sort of thing that should be worked with, at least evaluated. 

And I'm not sure why you'd recommend killing a dog you believe to be imaginary, if you think people shouldn't be willing to save the same imaginary dog. One way or the other, if you don't want to have an opinion on an imaginary dog, then don't. I'm mainly discussing the general principles, which would apply to any given situation.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Mine was set to be euthanized the day I took her home. She had been in the shelter for four months and was deemed unadoptable, but I felt she could be. She's been here three weeks and has now been spayed and will be starting her heartworm treatment. She responds very positively to me. Almost puppy like in her excitement to see me and will eat any thing I hand her. She's fearful but has proven thus far to not be bite risk. We have a long road ahead of us, but I feel she is worth my time and energy.


I hope you have a very successful journey together


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Mine was set to be euthanized the day I took her home. She had been in the shelter for four months and was deemed unadoptable, but I felt she could be. She's been here three weeks and has now been spayed and will be starting her heartworm treatment. She responds very positively to me. Almost puppy like in her excitement to see me and will eat any thing I hand her. She's fearful but has proven thus far to not be bite risk. We have a long road ahead of us, but I feel she is worth my time and energy.


You'll be paid back in spades. Rusty, my Chow mix was pretty much feral when I first saw him. He had been loose in the area for at least 2 1/2 yrs. AC had tried to catch him, but he'd jump 5' fences when cornered, and run at the sight of a person from 100 feet away. I first saw him near a barn where I was helping to retrain Thoroughbred horses rescued from slaughter. I started leaving food and water for him at the same time of day every day (and even hired someone to do it when I went on vacation for a week). After about a month, he started laying under the horse trailer waiting for me. If I looked at him and called him he'd run. But he'd follow me and lay a little ways away from me while I watered the horses, so I'd sing to him. After about 3 months, he recognized my car and would follow it, running down the street until I got to where I could put his food down. He'd stay about 8 feet away from me while I put it out and eat after I went back to the car. (The wacky barnowner had evicted the rescue so I was having to feed him off the property beside the road.). After about 6 months he finally did a big stretch when I showed up, and "wooo'd". After 8 months, I started feeding fried chicken and was finally able to get him to take a piece by hand. He licked my fingers and I was able to scratch his chin. A few days later, I scratched his chest for the first time. I watched a man intentionally drive off the road in his truck to try to run him over one day. I stopped the guy and asked "WTH he was doing?" and he said he was tired of him sitting outside his fence making his dog bark. He told me that people have been throwing rocks and firecrackers at him trying to chase him off. I knew I had to get him quickly. After 9 months, I was able to get a collar on him, and a few days later (New Years Eve day 3 yrs ago), I put a leash on him and took him home.

He barked at my husband and ran at him from behind any time he moved for about 3 months. Now he likes my husband. He has NEVER shown any aggression to me, even when I gave him his first bath, clipped his nails, etc. I can take bones from his mouth easily. He's really devoted to me, and I truly believe he'd protect me if anyone ever threatened me. He's turned out to be the BEST dog ever. He gets along great with my other 2 dogs, and plays equally with them. When company comes, he'll lay down beside me, for security, but not act aggressively towards them.

Your dog will repay you for your patience, and love in so many ways. I believe these dogs bond in ways that other dogs can't.

I hope the OP comes back on, and gives a location so we can attempt to help rehome it with a rescue if necessary.

Sorry for the novel. I just believe that most dogs can be made into great dogs if given the chance.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

That is a beautiful story Spotted Nikes, and an excellent example of just how much a little love and patience can accomplish. I too, believe most dogs can be made into great dogs if given a chance.


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## tandrace (Dec 11, 2011)

Britt & Bello said:


> I really find it highly depressing how many people are suggesting to put the puppy down. Poor thing is three months old and terrified out of her mind because some dumb*ss breeder doesn't really care about the dogs. Now granted the owner screwed up (pretty mightily). But that doesn't necessarily mean to tell them that because they screwed up (again) that the dog should die. They came looking for help didn't they?
> 
> So I second the sitting in the room with treats. Good treats, bits of hot dog, bacon, things that smell awesome. And toss them to her. Sit with your back to her so that she can't see her. Don't sit and stare at her as tempting as it is. To a terrified dog, being "stared down" like that makes it worse. It is going to take lots of time. At first it needs to consistently be the same person trying to make her feel safe. Get her into a routine even though you can't necessarily bring her outside. Deal with the fact that you will be picking up poop and cleaning up pee inside. It sucks I know. Don't yell at her. Don't punish her. Just come into the room at the same times everday. Give her food. New water. Toss treats. Speak gently and nicely. Don't worry about your Christmas season. You brought this little girl into your home and you owe it to her to try and make it better. Not take the easy way out and "put her to sleep."
> 
> Contact a behaviorist if you can. And if you really think you can't handle her then get her to a chow rescue. If you give her back to that breeder, you know as well as everybody here she stands no chance.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

*Thank you. As some others have suggested some of your thoughts as well, however you "are right on point" I know I made a mistake and I realize some of the things I stated in my post *seems to indicate selfishness and more....I realize I have wronged and I have asked God to forgive me and help make this situation right. No longer do I care about the money, money means nothing compared to the wonderful chance at life some qualified person maybe able to give little "Pepper". 

This forum has really broaden my views on things and I see just how bad ignorance had taken a toll on me. I took the advice to call the Rescue places and I have 2 places in my city working hard to accept Pepper. The guy didn't get a chance to come out today(Wed) but says he will get by to look at Pepper today(Thurs)sometime. I do sit at Peppers kennel sometimes and talk comforting to her, she even lets me comb her fur at times without any attempts to bite but she still refuses to let me pick her up or come when I call. I don't push her and I have a mirror that I look in that way she cant see me admiring her, she is yet extremely shy and watches every move, she appears so smart. It puzzles me though that she seems to respond better to avoidance than TLC. She is so adorable and one of the most prettiest pups on earth. I wish I could keep her but I dare not even dream of it because she belongs to someone who can make her nothing but happy. Yes, I care and I do want the best for Pepper. I wont be at ease until she is with a good rescue place....and hope the people will let me keep in touch with Pepper. Maybe I can donate help or something. I heard the Rescue Shelter I've contacted is one of the best..I told the people I would like to take a personal tour and I will be asking many questions during our interview.

As far as my other dog Jake who bit the 19 y/o kid....I am more than sorry and it pains me every day that happened but to constantly battered myself emotionally about this is not healthy...I have caught the neighboring kids next door throwing tree branches at Jakes' head and when I come out they run away. Their mom have also been caught cursing Jake. Sure didn't know dogs could climb fences...again "my bad". Jake have always appeared to love people and I am working with him on his licking and jumping to greet, he dosen't do that nearly as much, he is a fast learner. He just loves loving on people and guess assumes the whole world should love in return....(He's kept inside now n loves it). He knows better now though...he's learning he must learn to respect others. Hoping I can gain tips/insight by educating myself and learning from other professionals.

By the way, my dog bite case was "thrown out" yesterday with only a small court cost to pay...the kid who was bit came by my house to discuss a settlement and I asked to talk with his mom (who hasn't surfaced yet, I haven't been able to establish contact and I have tried)...seems the kid is handling his own affairs, he keeps coming over asking about the bill, I have told him a couple of times to submit a copy of his medical expense, finally this time he said he'd go to the hospital for a copy. Oh yeah, and the kid with him jumped on his mom's car running from Jake and ofcourse his mom came to my house the night (11p.m.) of the occurrence to inform me her son kicked out her car window running from Jake along with his partner who was bit. Do you guys think I am responsible for her son kicking out her car window...I just want to do the just and right thing...I know times are hard...it is not a money issue though....help please.

I plan to do the right thing and pay his medical bill (we are settling the bite incident ourselves)...I'm almost afraid to ask...due to some of the tension felt from some of the other posters....but... I just wonder what _would be a fair settlement for this kid..._again I ask "help" but I can do without the bashings....just don't need it right about now....I am tired of being labeled... I know I am not a heartless individual and thank God I know he understands me. Just so sorry for making these mistakes.... but let the first one without mistakes stand and stand tall....thank you.

PS...I am in the USA


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

Your neighbours sound like ***holes. I would pay any medical expenses directly associated with Jake's bite, all else is their ******* faults.

I apologise for not believing the dog was real and for being unkind about you and Jake, you're doing the best thing for you both, hopefully the rescue will take her and she can be rehabbed, but if not remember it's not your fault at all but the B***c who sold her to you. You're doing the right thing. 

I would keep Jake inside all the time and never let him outside without you there with him all the time, these people sound like they're trying to rob you blind by getting payments for dog attacks that they set up. Your dog is the victim in this, as are you.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I apologise for not believing the dog was real and for being unkind about you and Jake,


Too little and too late.


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## Karamay (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm so sorry about your dog  Know you did nothing wrong and sometimes life can be cruel. Your neighbours sound really nasty. I hope everything works out for you.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> By the way, my dog bite case was "thrown out" yesterday with only a small court cost to pay...the kid who was bit came by my house to discuss a settlement and I asked to talk with his mom (who hasn't surfaced yet, I haven't been able to establish contact and I have tried)...seems the kid is handling his own affairs, he keeps coming over asking about the bill, I have told him a couple of times to submit a copy of his medical expense, finally this time he said he'd go to the hospital for a copy. Oh yeah, and the kid with him jumped on his mom's car running from Jake and ofcourse his mom came to my house the night (11p.m.) of the occurrence to inform me her son kicked out her car window running from Jake along with his partner who was bit. Do you guys think I am responsible for her son kicking out her car window...I just want to do the just and right thing...I know times are hard...it is not a money issue though....help please.
> 
> I plan to do the right thing and pay his medical bill (we are settling the bite incident ourselves)...I'm almost afraid to ask...due to some of the tension felt from some of the other posters....but... I just wonder what would be a fair settlement for this kid...again I ask "help" but I can do without the bashings....just don't need it right about now....I am tired of being labeled... I know I am not a heartless individual and thank God I know he understands me. Just so sorry for making these mistakes.... but let the first one without mistakes stand and stand tall....thank you.


He is not a "kid", he is an adult. It _sounds_ from your description that he was trespassing and taunting your dog. Obviously the court agreed that it was not your fault criminally if they tossed the case. In my city at least, the law explicitly states that a dog who bites IF PROVOKED is not considered a dangerous dog. Aka "in defense of himself or his owner" is acceptable criminally at least. Obviously anyone can sue anyone civilly. I am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice, but I personally would tell them to shove off. A "fair" settlement in my personal opinion would be $0. *If* it had been a CHILD that got bit, as in a child young enough not to understand proper behavior around dogs and other people's property, then I could understand paying a share of the bills but this is an ADULT. As in, its his own dumb fault.



> I do sit at Peppers kennel sometimes and talk comforting to her, she even lets me comb her fur at times without any attempts to bite but she still refuses to let me pick her up or come when I call. I don't push her and I have a mirror that I look in that way she cant see me admiring her, she is yet extremely shy and watches every move, she appears so smart. It puzzles me though that she seems to respond better to avoidance than TLC. She is so adorable and one of the most prettiest pups on earth. I wish I could keep her but I dare not even dream of it because she belongs to someone who can make her nothing but happy.


It sounds like you are already making progress. If you have the finances to work with a trainer, you could consider keeping her and working with her under their guidance. Some rescues will help with training and advice because its often better to keep a dog in a home that wants to help then to try to find a foster and then try to find a permanent home, meanwhile shuffling the dog around and stressing it. She _might_ respond better to avoidance than TLC because she doesn't understand what TLC is.... avoidance is quiet and safe to her, while TLC is scary if the only human contact before this has been rough and rude. If every time someone reached out to you they slapped you in the face rather than shaking your hand, wouldn't you start to flinch away from any outstretched hand? 
If you give her up to a rescue, which I wouldn't judge you for doing, then you should ask them what resources they need to be able to provide for the foster home... my foster needed a large crate, a leash, a dog bed and heartworm and flea/tick preventative (the monthly pill and topical treatments) which totaled about $150 in items and $100 for a 6 months supply of meds. Most rescues are cash-strapped and always need both $$ and in-kind donations.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

To those worrying about a rabies vaccination, a pup doesn't get one until it's FOUR months old, the mothers antibodies protect it until then. That someone can claim they've lived in the US and worked in one of our shelters and NOT know that is truly telling.


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> The dog isn't dominant. She's terrified. Clearly the "breeder" didn't socialise the puppy at all, and it probably never left whatever kennel it grew up in.
> 
> This dog is going to be a LOT of work and problems, and will probably never be a confident, happy dog. I would return it to the breeder or have it put to sleep.


I agree. But I wouldn't return the dog to the breeder; it would just continue to suffer there. If you keep her you have to be prepared to invest a LOT of time and effort and have oodles of patience and you probably will need the help of a dog trainer/behavior specialist to have her reach her fullest potential unless you are a very seasoned owner of problem dogs. Some people are just so cruel. I don't understand why these people breed dogs; for what, for the 50 bucks she made on her? Good luck to you.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yah know, I'm so glad I didn't give up on my Angel. Her breeder repossed her from the people she had adopted her out to because they had thrown her in a kennel and done NO work with her. The pup was *6 MONTHS* *OLD* and had no socialization nor had she even been housebroken. I literally lived with this dog tethered to me for three weeks to get her housebroken, we fed her treats every time she's come to us to get a positive association. The ONLY fears we have not been able to overcome are small children (mine were teens) and stuff like bicycles and strollers. I use training (which I did extensively) to manage these barriers with her. 

She's asleep right now upstairs with my 14 year old daughter (who's her favorite human) and a wonderful loving part of our family. Oh and if I hadn't adopted her, the breeder was going to euth her because her fear issues were SO BAD she didn't feel they could be worked with!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Tan, 
I'm glad to hear you've gotten a rescue to consider taking her. Returning her to her irresponsible breeder would indeed be a huge mistake! As far as our GSD, it truly sounds like he was defending himself and NO you're not responsible for the idiot who kicked in a car window.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> You'll be paid back in spades. Rusty, my Chow mix was pretty much feral when I first saw him. He had been loose in the area for at least 2 1/2 yrs. AC had tried to catch him, but he'd jump 5' fences when cornered, and run at the sight of a person from 100 feet away. I first saw him near a barn where I was helping to retrain Thoroughbred horses rescued from slaughter. I started leaving food and water for him at the same time of day every day (and even hired someone to do it when I went on vacation for a week). After about a month, he started laying under the horse trailer waiting for me. If I looked at him and called him he'd run. But he'd follow me and lay a little ways away from me while I watered the horses, so I'd sing to him. After about 3 months, he recognized my car and would follow it, running down the street until I got to where I could put his food down. He'd stay about 8 feet away from me while I put it out and eat after I went back to the car. (The wacky barnowner had evicted the rescue so I was having to feed him off the property beside the road.). After about 6 months he finally did a big stretch when I showed up, and "wooo'd". After 8 months, I started feeding fried chicken and was finally able to get him to take a piece by hand. He licked my fingers and I was able to scratch his chin. A few days later, I scratched his chest for the first time. I watched a man intentionally drive off the road in his truck to try to run him over one day. I stopped the guy and asked "WTH he was doing?" and he said he was tired of him sitting outside his fence making his dog bark. He told me that people have been throwing rocks and firecrackers at him trying to chase him off. I knew I had to get him quickly. After 9 months, I was able to get a collar on him, and a few days later (New Years Eve day 3 yrs ago), I put a leash on him and took him home.
> 
> He barked at my husband and ran at him from behind any time he moved for about 3 months. Now he likes my husband. He has NEVER shown any aggression to me, even when I gave him his first bath, clipped his nails, etc. I can take bones from his mouth easily. He's really devoted to me, and I truly believe he'd protect me if anyone ever threatened me. He's turned out to be the BEST dog ever. He gets along great with my other 2 dogs, and plays equally with them. When company comes, he'll lay down beside me, for security, but not act aggressively towards them.
> 
> ...


I love these novels. The first time I met my girl I went into her kennel and she just looked at me wild eyed and backed into a corner, barking at me. She wouldn't let any one put a lead on her, but I thought she couldn't be that far gone when she would be let out of her kennel, walk to the door, go outside, then go right back into her kennel when the door was opened. Right before I took her home she had started approaching the bars to check people out, and I was able to scratch her through the bars one day. Her papers say she is feral, but the night I fairly easily guided her into a kennel and drove her home I knew she wasn't. When we got home and I let her out of her kennel she went up to my boyfriend, tail tucked right into her bum, but smelled him and checked him out. The first few days she was weary of us and generally avoided, but I could easily handle her and she has not made any move that she would bite. She'd rather just get away. I can put a harness on her, take her out to walk, and even got her spayed thus far. She has been here nearly a month now and responds very positively to me, crawls into my lap, and cries in excitement when I come into her apartment (We have her separated from our dogs into an apartment attached onto our house) and in the last few days she has discovered the joys of squeaker toys (but I can only hear her squeaking them when I'm not around). Now I'm just slowly working at her getting used to every day dog life. 

Every night before I go to bed I tell her good night and she comes to me, smushes her face into mine, and I scratch her. Those few minutes are worth it to me.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I love your stories ... similar to the 9 month old I rescued, Lab/Rott mix. She was huddled in a corner at the shelter on the day she was to be euthed. I took her anyways. She was beaten, left to starve, a bag of bones, left to die.... found along side a dead starved horse. She was fear aggressive. It took a few months ... but she turned around and is now entering her senior years at the age of 9 sometime at the first of the New Year. 

She is a wonderful dog and was given the chance to prove herself.


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## Karamay (Dec 15, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> To those worrying about a rabies vaccination, a pup doesn't get one until it's FOUR months old, the mothers antibodies protect it until then. That someone can claim they've lived in the US and worked in one of our shelters and NOT know that is truly telling.


heya. I work in a US shelter and I don't know that either lol. You only find out if they tell you, if you're just in the kennel area you wouldn't know...

I'm not defending her, I read her posts. But just because someone doesn't know one thing doesn't mean they're not telling the truth. Although I don't agree with her about getting this pup PTS every pup should get a chance.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> To those worrying about a rabies vaccination, a pup doesn't get one until it's FOUR months old, the mothers antibodies protect it until then. That someone can claim they've lived in the US and worked in one of our shelters and NOT know that is truly telling.


There was a rabid puppy in the trailer court the next block over from my house a few years ago. The litter (of farm puppies) had been attacked by a rabid skunk when they were 3-4 weeks old. The farmer did away with the mother dog and the puppies that were injured , but kept the pups that weren't badly injured (not knowing what had attacked the pups, he assumed the mother dog did it, which is why he killed her), and sold them when they were 6 weeks old or so. I'm not sure how old the pup was when it started showing symptoms. . .but it wasn't protected by maternal antibodies. 

Anyway, enough rambling . I think the chance of a pup having rabies is a million-to-one, but it is possible.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Wow. You have so much wisdom and good information (sarcasm here). What exactly are your credentials to be making such calls?


I agree, it's ppl like you that make me afraid to take my older dog into public even to places she LOVES (Petco/petsmart parks, dog parks etc ....) bc she is intolerant of children.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> And I don't think people are necessarily getting worked up about this particular puppy, but about the general attitude of "kill it, it's not worth your time anyway".


Well, I've seen a few people suggest euthanasia. I've seen other people suggest that euthanasia should be unthinkable. I've seen some people suggest that we don't really have enough information to say one way or another. I have not seen a "general attitude of kill it, it's not worth your time anyway." I don't think you have either unless you've been reading some different thread.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I agree, it's ppl like you that make me afraid to take my older dog into public even to places she LOVES (Petco/petsmart parks, dog parks etc ....) bc she is intolerant of children.


If she is truly intolerant of children, and you can't figure out a way to change that perception, you have a responsibility to be careful - for her sake and for the sake of children.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Well, I've seen a few people suggest euthanasia. I've seen other people suggest that euthanasia should be unthinkable. I've seen some people suggest that we don't really have enough information to say one way or another. I have not seen a "general attitude of kill it, it's not worth your time anyway." I don't think you have either unless you've been reading some different thread.


 Stationgirl's general attitude .


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> And if they're near you Laurelin and accept that help, I could not transport from this way but I could donate and help set up a possible transport.


If Laurelin had someone locally who could work with the pup, I'd be willing to meet her and give my best advice. It's possible the pup is simply overwhelmed. But it is also possible that there is more to it than that. The fact that the OP reports some improvement is hopeful. However, I do think there are worse things that death. Rehabbing a fearful biting dog and then rehoming it can be tricky, and often times unsuccessful. Of course one of the trickiest parts of it is that so many people are willing to talk about what other people "should do" without being willing to step up themselves.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Stationgirl's general attitude .


Well, then. That would be her attitude, not the general attitude.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I love these novels. The first time I met my girl I went into her kennel and she just looked at me wild eyed and backed into a corner, barking at me. She wouldn't let any one put a lead on her, but I thought she couldn't be that far gone when she would be let out of her kennel, walk to the door, go outside, then go right back into her kennel when the door was opened. Right before I took her home she had started approaching the bars to check people out, and I was able to scratch her through the bars one day. Her papers say she is feral, but the night I fairly easily guided her into a kennel and drove her home I knew she wasn't. When we got home and I let her out of her kennel she went up to my boyfriend, tail tucked right into her bum, but smelled him and checked him out. The first few days she was weary of us and generally avoided, but I could easily handle her and she has not made any move that she would bite. She'd rather just get away. I can put a harness on her, take her out to walk, and even got her spayed thus far. She has been here nearly a month now and responds very positively to me, crawls into my lap, and cries in excitement when I come into her apartment (We have her separated from our dogs into an apartment attached onto our house) and in the last few days she has discovered the joys of squeaker toys (but I can only hear her squeaking them when I'm not around). Now I'm just slowly working at her getting used to every day dog life.
> 
> Every night before I go to bed I tell her good night and she comes to me, smushes her face into mine, and I scratch her. Those few minutes are worth it to me.


Awwww...how sweet. Thank you for taking her in and giving her a chance to know what love and a home is.


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## abigail1989 (Nov 22, 2011)

After reading this, I gave my dog a raspberry kiss on his belly and a hug. Thank goodness I was lucky enough to get a guy who I can bath, brush his teeth, clip his nails, introduce to other people and dogs, and stick my hand in his food bowl without incident.

To the OP, I am so sorry you've been put in this situation and am happy you are taking the right steps for this animal's future. I hope you are never, ever this unlucky with your future pets ever again.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Tan,
I am so glad you came back (even to read all the holycowcrap that went on in the thread!) and have been able to get the ball rolling towards possibly finding Pepper a rescue to go to and have been more patient and easy with her. TLC is only TLC if the animal THINKS it is, and since she has had likely very bad experiences with the humans she has known in her short life, it's not surprising that she is so distrustful and finds no attention to be better than too much. Dogs are happy to avoid 90 percent of the things in life that stress them, it takes time, patience and good information to rehab a fearful or distrustful dog. 
Please keep us up to date on your progress.

And no, I wouldn't be paying for anyone's windshield..and if I was going to cover medical bills it would be only under a legal, binding agreement (ie contract) that there would be no further requests for compensation. IE, speak to a lawyer.

Good luck.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Well, then. That would be her attitude, not the general attitude.


_her_ general attitude. 

heh heh


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I agree with this, and this is why I suggested pts. A dog this young with this many problems isn't going to have a good life. Maybe, just maybe, it could get a LITTLE better with a LOT of professional help, but it will most likely never be a happy, normal, confident dog. Chances are this will always be a high maintenance, fearful dog. PTS is often more humane than life at all costs.


I agree. Euthanasia can many times be the more humane option, like in this situation.


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## tandrace (Dec 11, 2011)

Thx. and just to think someone on here actually believe this could be a made-up story to gain attention or something. That's ludicrous and sounds like something a kid would do or someone mentally unstable. I thank God for efficient and positive minded posters on this forum because Pepper may now have a chance at a successful life. After reading some of the post I feel with prayers and the right ones in Pepper's life that she will do fine. I am already proud that she is letting us rub her and brush her fur, she seems to be attached to Jake(he adores her) now. The lady from the rescue place came by today to meet Pepper and take pics of her (as she says they must obatin a pic. for the files). Initially, upon meeting Pepper, she growled defensively at the lady, when attempting to put a leash on her she yelped and barked furiously, the lady backed off, so she decided that we offer her treats (cheese) and it did seem to calm Pep. down, she seemed to enjoy the treats but still backed to the back of the cage. Everything seem promising until the lady said she was not sure about Pep. and even entered the thought of euthanizing but said she knew personally she would not have the time but would talk with her friend at another rescue that might be interested. I then found out that she actually started this rescue venture from her home. The lady said she has like 3 or 4 dogs like that but she stays out in the country and lets them run out into the woods and they are caged. Woods and cage is life for them and she figure atleast they would have some form of relaxation in life. If this didn't make me cry inside....I just pray there is hope for a successful life with Pepper somehow and somewhere. While I have Pep (awaiting rescue) I will continue to do the things I've learned here on this site and take advice given on the forum such as exercising patience, space, understanding, giving her the hearty treats, talking to her in a soothing/comforting voice and lots of prayers. I thank God for this forum and all the wonderful people on it, you guys will never know just how grateful I am for all the advice.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

tandrace said:


> Thx. and just to think someone on here actually believe this could be a made-up story to gain attention or something. That's ludicrous and sounds like something a kid would do or someone mentally unstable. I thank God for efficient and positive minded posters on this forum because Pepper may now have a chance at a successful life. After reading some of the post I feel with prayers and the right ones in Pepper's life that she will do fine. I am already proud that she is letting us rub her and brush her fur, she seems to be attached to Jake(he adores her) now. The lady from the rescue place came by today to meet Pepper and take pics of her (as she says they must obatin a pic. for the files). Initially, upon meeting Pepper, she growled defensively at the lady, when attempting to put a leash on her she yelped and barked furiously, the lady backed off, so she decided that we offer her treats (cheese) and it did seem to calm Pep. down, she seemed to enjoy the treats but still backed to the back of the cage. Everything seem promising until the lady said she was not sure about Pep. and even entered the thought of euthanizing but said she knew personally she would not have the time but would talk with her friend at another rescue that might be interested. I then found out that she actually started this rescue venture from her home. The lady said she has like 3 or 4 dogs like that but she stays out in the country and lets them run out into the woods and they are caged. Woods and cage is life for them and she figure atleast they would have some form of relaxation in life. If this didn't make me cry inside....I just pray there is hope for a successful life with Pepper somehow and somewhere. While I have Pep (awaiting rescue) I will continue to do the things I've learned here on this site and take advice given on the forum such as exercising patience, space, understanding, giving her the hearty treats, talking to her in a soothing/comforting voice and lots of prayers. I thank God for this forum and all the wonderful people on it, you guys will never know just how grateful I am for all the advice.


 I'm sending you and your family and Pepper prayers that you all learn to understand one another and she adjusts to your home and family.
It sounds like you are doing the right things to accomplish that.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm glad things are getting better! And keep you in my thoughts and hope for the best out come. I have a lot of oppinion over the things said, but really, that's all in the past and this is a new page. 

Me and the dog crew send our hope!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I wish you the best with Pepper and your family. 

In my life somehow things that seem hopeless always seem to tend turn out good in the end : whether it be fate or faith.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

It sounds like Pepper may be headed to a Sanctuary, it could work as long as the dogs there are properly taken care of.


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

Good luck to you and Pepper! Please come back and give us an update as things progress.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> It sounds like Pepper may be headed to a Sanctuary, it could work as long as the dogs there are properly taken care of.


It could work, although I would recommend that the OP google the woman's name and ask around some to see if she is reputable and ask if she could visit the rescue location. I've seen some cases where animal hoarders were taking in far too many dogs to "live on their farm" ; basically, someone starts off trying to help the animals and gets in way over their head but emotionally can't handle turning away any dogs so they just take in more and more.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

> No. But sometimes the psychotic ones are institutionalized. I can't say if this pup is victim of a very callous and un-dog-savvy environment (which sounds quite possible from the original post) or if this is a seriously miswired puppy. (which also sounds quite possible). Therefore, i can't advise whether or not to euthanize. In general, I think it is very bad policy to advise PTS on an internet list. Because we are usually hearing the story from someone who is part of the issue, who is fed up, frightened, and may be grossly exaggerating the issues (sometimes unintentionally, and especially if they are going on about "dominance") or even sometimes in denial. To suggest ending the life as an option you should have a full history and have had a chance to observe the dog. I will say that this pup is, at the very least, going to be a lot of work. And if it has serious genetic temperament flaws even a lot of work may not save it. No breeder worth the title would use such a dog for breeding. A shelter would probably kill the dog within a day and a lot of rescues are going to look for better uses of their limited resources.


Hey I take offense to that! I'm an ADDer & I have to say that although I'm not what you'd call "normal" I don't think I should be instutionalized lol.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Hey I take offense to that! I'm an ADDer & I have to say that although I'm not what you'd call "normal" I don't think I should be instutionalized lol.


People with ADD have ADD or ADHD. I'm not the one who talked about killing children for having ADD so you might want to take that up with the person who did. People with certain psychoses who can not live safely in society may end up institutionalized, but it has nothing to do with whether or not they have ADD or ADHD. I hope that clears it up for you that I wasn't suggesting institutionalizing people with attention deficit.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

abigail1989 said:


> After reading this, I gave my dog a raspberry kiss on his belly and a hug. Thank goodness I was lucky enough to get a guy who I can bath, brush his teeth, clip his nails, introduce to other people and dogs, and stick my hand in his food bowl without incident.
> 
> To the OP, I am so sorry you've been put in this situation and am happy you are taking the right steps for this animal's future. I hope you are never, ever this unlucky with your future pets ever again.



I'm very glad that the OP has weathered this thread and is looking for options to do the best she can for the puppy. And I really truly hope things somehow work out (many dogs don't get that lucky) but the OP put herself in this situation. Nobody else. And luck only has a little to do with it. It's possible to get a normal puppy by making such poor choices but it sure does increase your odds of this sort of situation. I hope this has been a cautionary tale for anyone who doesn't realize having a $50 breeder dump a terrified puppy out of a crate at your house and then accepting and paying for said pup is a very bad idea. Getting a dog is a long term investment. People who wouldn't buy a car without checking the manufacturer, Consumer Reports, Carfax, etc. don't seem to realize that they will probably (hopefully) have the dog longer and have a closer relationship with the dog. And the only reason careless breeders will continue to make pups like this is if they can unload them on people who will buy them


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Since there may be some time before she is rescued...check out the fearful dog threads here on DF and also the site www.fearfuldogs.com for information on how to work with her.


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## tandrace (Dec 11, 2011)

Thanks. I totally took your advice and everything you suggested actually worked! Except instead of bacon snacks. etc., I gave her the cheese someone else suggested as a treat and she loves it. I no longer stare at her beauty but concentrate solely on doing things that will not aggaravate as suggested. Pep wagged her tail once or twice a couple days ago and today she wagged her tail when I came back from an errand. She is kept in the kennel with Jake and she wags her tail when Jake returns from his outsid potty trips. Now she's not wagging too often but atleast now I know her tail can wag(lol). She is eating the cheese from my fingers/hand...she takes care not to bite but gently licks the cheese off. She still jumps or frets when she hears sudden noises throughout the house. She stands at the edge of the kennel and whines, looks to see whose watching and goes back in a few times before she musters enough nerves to make watse on the newspaper outside her kennel;only when she notice I'm ignoring her. Sometimes she gets unsure and growls just when you think all the growling is over but it is much less. I am so amazed with her progress. The rescue lady called again today to inform me that she found a great chow rescue for Pepper, but she wants to get Peppers shots and stuff before she travels to Nashville. If anyone else has a situation like this, trust me you guys here are right "on target".


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm so glad you not only came back but things are working out for the better. She is so young I fail to see that they won't be able to make a ton of progress with her.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm glad she's making progress! Hopefully the move to rescue dosn't set her back.Keep working with her in the mean time to increase hger chances of being rehabbed and ending up in a good forever home.


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## tandrace (Dec 11, 2011)

Hopefully this is the end of the thread, but I would like to take this moment to just THANK not just some but EVERYONE for their expertise, concern, prayers and support!


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Could you update us on her? As in what happens regarding the rescue/sanctuary, or if you decide to keep her and work with her? I know I'd love to hear "the rest of the story".

If she goes to the rescue, maybe enclose a letter about her history, and what you have been trying with her that seems to help, and what things make her more fearful. And what makes her wag her tail. It'll help, in case she has a setback being at a new place, to know what she was like in a "somewhat more familiar" place. It might very well save her life, if they know that after just a week/two weeks she was wagging her tail, approaching people, taking food gently by hand.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes, pointing fingers, & accusing the poor OP when she came here for help isn't right either, yes she made a mistake ....... BUT (& this is a Huge "but") as the movie "riding the bullet" says, "what's fun is fun, & what's done is done" so no use beating a dead horse. I also don't think that PTS is the answer either, I hope the OP takes the advice to I list the help of a rescue to: take the dog, or to help find a behaviorist.


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