# How to tell if it is a fight or a scuffle/dominance display?



## tianna (Feb 10, 2010)

I am just curious if there is a difference? Should social dogs be permitted to "sort things out on their own" or what do you think? I am curious mainly because my dog recently got annoyed with a friends dog and after my dog gave several cues he wanted the dog to leave him be, the other dog (who is a 6 month old large puppy) continued to jump on my dog. My dog turned around and "attacked" This is the second time in the 4 years I've had him that I've ever seen him go into serious correction mode and launch what looked like a full on attack. I was not sure if he planned to stop, and i never let it go on to find out. The 2 times it has happened, he has never broken skin on the other dog. We Checked the dog out and he was fine. No one was yelping. I just said "Hey!" and my dog stopped. The other dog left my dog alone after that and was still playful, but cautious of his approach. They were normal and fine, but of course, I feel horrible, and I believe my friend is now scared to bring her puppy around my dog. Sorry for the long question, but I am curious what your thoughts are. What is and isnt a fight? Also, do dogs "fake bite" or are they really biting when they get into it like that?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the difference is blood and wounds. if dogs are really having an honest to goodness fight there will be a trip to the vet.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Yeah. If it's a real fight, you won't need to ask anyone. Hope you never ever see one.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Most dogs play by biting each other, wrestling, and so on. It can be wild, but in general is pretty "slow" looking in comparision.

A typical fight looks very fast. It's really unmistakable. If you've seen your dogs play, even their hardest play moments.. the time they fight, you will go "Whoa".

It looks bad, sounds bad, and after the fight is broken up, both dogs might have some minor scratches but no real damage. These kinds of fights are, I don't want to say "no big deal" but, they do happen.. even between dogs that are super dog friendly and have known each other for years. They shouldn't be disregarded but, it should not change your whole life and your dog's relationships. Most people over-react to this kind of fight and take drastic and unnecessary measures.

The BAD kind of fight, is also unmistakable. You will see lots of blood.

EDIT:

The "fake biting" you see is a warning. One common mistake people make is, growling, "fake biting", baring teeth, and so on are all perfectly normal doggy behaviors. In itself, they are NOT bad things.

For a example, if someone was following you down a dark street, acting generally shady. You might turn around and act threatening towards the person following you, in order to get him to leave you alone. Does that make you an aggressive human? No, you're just warding off a perceived danger. Humans act "aggressively" towards other humans all the time, it's perfectly normal behavior. We stare down people who are bothering us, we tell them "get lost", we curse at them, sometimes we might politely tell them to leave us alone. But either way, we are telling them to get lost.

Your dog can't speak english. His growling, fake biting, baring teeth, etc... is his way of communicating to the other dog that he is uncomfortable and he needs to be left alone.

A well socialized dog would see a dog growling at him, and leave the dog alone. A poorly socialized dog will continue approach, and cause more severe corrections. Who is at wrong? The dog who was trying to warn the other off, or the dog who ignored the warnings?

As such, those behaviors in itself do not merit correcting. That said, you can try to teach your dog to be more comfortable in these situations so that he does not feel the need to correct.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree completely with the other responders. However, I think it's a good idea to step in and stop any dog that appears to be annoying yours, making his response unnecessary. Then you won't run any risk or challenge any friendships. Plus, your dog will thank you for it.

I always choose to err on the side of keeping my dogs out of trouble.

A real dog fight is a horror.


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## tianna (Feb 10, 2010)

RBark said:


> Most dogs play by biting each other, wrestling, and so on. It can be wild, but in general is pretty "slow" looking in comparision.
> 
> A typical fight looks very fast. It's really unmistakable. If you've seen your dogs play, even their hardest play moments.. the time they fight, you will go "Whoa".
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great advice (and everyone else too). Well when he was "fake biting" he had his mouth around the other dogs neck and was pinning him down, but it seemed he wasn't clamping down, but that's what I was wondering about and I guess I wonder if I hadn't interrupted, what the outcome could have been? I guess I will never know, but yeah, he is never scolded for giving warnings, but I do try to turn his focus on me when that occurs and lately have been focusing on not letting other dogs make him feel uncomfortable, and vise versa. I want him to see me as part of the solution.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Without seeing it, my guess is it's mostly play.

If it was serious, the other dog would be freaking out. (screaming, making noises, trying to kick her off, etc)

When my dogs play with each other, they often "chew" on each other's necks or snap in their faces. It's also just play.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Yeah. If it's a real fight, you won't need to ask anyone. Hope you never ever see one.


I keep Pyrs & have seen too many fights to count...I agree!


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I had been wondering about this as well. My roommate's dog never gets the picture when Sydney has had enough. They get along well generally, and their playing can get pretty rough, with both dogs making lots of demonic noises and biting each other's ears and necks, tails wagging. When they get particularly rough I usually call Sydney over to me to break up the intensity. It always worries me that they might begin fighting accidentally when one bites the other a bit too hard or something like that.

But sometimes Sydney is clearly done playing and Lily just will not let up. Sydney will snap and growl and move away. Once she begins clearly avoiding Lily, I normally take her into my room and play tug of war with her for a while so she doesn't feel like she's being punished, but I'm also able to get her away from Lily without offending my roommate, who doesn't understand these things. 

For me, the distinction is whether both parties are participating and enjoying themselves.


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## tianna (Feb 10, 2010)

Yeah.....well my dog doesn't like this dog. This is just the 2nd time they have met. They have come close to playing, but for the most part, my dog just seems to "tolerate" the puppy.I guess I was wondering if dogs usually just try to look like they are biting? it happened really quickly, and I just wonder what would have happened if i didnt stop my dog.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

You don't know what would have happened if you didnt' stop your dog. That's why you do it. Any paired up dogs CAN have a scuffle...for many reasons. 
My concern with an older dog and a puppy (or a really small v a really big dog) is that someone may get hurt or overly frightened. If your dog was giving signals that she's had enough (head turn away, trying to leave, then a lip curl or growl, then a snap, then a pin) then the puppy needs to learn to back off. Unfortunately, not all puppies had the proper socialization with mum and littermates and need their communication skills to be TAUGHT. 

Having a puppy get told TOO roughly CAN create fear in the puppy. Not a good thing. Puppies need to learn to play with other puppies first. This is why puppy classes are good socialization..they are monitored, the dogs are almost all size, temperament and age matched. Your dog has a right to not like puppies, so don't force it. 

You did the right thing. If I see a dog getting ticked off by another dog I separate them before it gets to "attack" point unless I am absolutely sure the older dog has great bite inhibition and a lot of patience. It is not worth making the puppy traumatized nor having your dog think you won't step in when needed. 

You need to ensure you protect your dog from being harassed and your friend needs to learn to see the signs that a dog is getting ticked at her puppy and REMOVE him.

And yes, no harm no foul. A true fight is often eerily silent and there is going to be blood and punctures. Most aggression between dogs is ritualized (like what your dog did to the puppy) and causes little or no damage physically.


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## tianna (Feb 10, 2010)

Cracker said:


> You don't know what would have happened if you didnt' stop your dog. That's why you do it. Any paired up dogs CAN have a scuffle...for many reasons.
> My concern with an older dog and a puppy (or a really small v a really big dog) is that someone may get hurt or overly frightened. If your dog was giving signals that she's had enough (head turn away, trying to leave, then a lip curl or growl, then a snap, then a pin) then the puppy needs to learn to back off. Unfortunately, not all puppies had the proper socialization with mum and littermates and need their communication skills to be TAUGHT.
> 
> Having a puppy get told TOO roughly CAN create fear in the puppy. Not a good thing. Puppies need to learn to play with other puppies first. This is why puppy classes are good socialization..they are monitored, the dogs are almost all size, temperament and age matched. Your dog has a right to not like puppies, so don't force it.
> ...


Wow.....hit the nail right on the head  Thanks. , and thanks everyone. All of the answers really got me thinking!


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Cracker said:


> A true fight is often eerily silent and there is going to be blood and punctures.


you think? ive never heard a quiet fight. theres always been noise. 

dog fights are just one of those things you just KNOW when you see it. its not nice, its not pretty, and its quick moving. the key is to know dog behavior to be able to stop it before it gets that far. even just doing a google search can get you some good tips on the basics of what to be looking for so that a fight doesnt happen.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

GreatDaneMom said:


> you think? ive never heard a quiet fight. theres always been noise.
> 
> dog fights are just one of those things you just KNOW when you see it. its not nice, its not pretty, and its quick moving. the key is to know dog behavior to be able to stop it before it gets that far. even just doing a google search can get you some good tips on the basics of what to be looking for so that a fight doesnt happen.


Cracker is right...A real dog fight is very quiet as the dogs have too full of mouth of each other to make noise...I've had serious fights between my own dogs & when the telling each other off stops & there is no noise is when it is serious.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

When I mean a true fight, I mean a fight intended to KILL or MAIM the other dog. Scuffle fights (which often result in no blood or a torn ear or maybe a face puncture or two) do not involve bites to the abdomen or throat. A dog intending on killing another will try to go for the throat/neck (Like the prey shake/kill) or will try to eviscerate the other abdominally. Sorry to paint such a literal picture, and it's not to say that a scuffle cannot escalate to that either, but most of what people would call fights are not true assault with intent but are more "give in you jerk" fights in which as a soon as one dog submits (which in most cases occurs) the other dog will walk away "victorious".


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GypsyJazmine said:


> Cracker is right...A real dog fight is very quiet as the dogs have too full of mouth of each other to make noise...I've had serious fights between my own dogs & when the telling each other off stops & there is no noise is when it is serious.


i third this. all the real fights ive seen have been very quiet. some muted growls in some cases and the occasional scream of pain but otherwise not much in the way of (vocal) noise .


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Chad my Boston Terrier is Dog Aggressive and he is a big part of the reason I no longer live at home with my mom. The only un nutered Male Dog Chad ever got along with was my yellow Lab Deron, any other Male dog it is an all out war. 

I used to live with my mom, with Chad and her four dogs, She used to have an unaltered Male named Jerry, Jerry and Chad are brother's Not Litter mates but they share a sire and a Dam with 3 years sepperating them in age. They got along great till Jerry turned six months of age and he got hit with the totosterone, and then Chad began to bully Jerry, I corrected, Redirected and did everything I possibly stop the eventual outcome which was...of course while I was out of town and my mom was home alone and Chad ripped into Jerry, There was blood, screaming and all sorts of horrid sounds. My mom told me to get rid of Chad, I moved out because Chad is My Baby. 

This was 2 years ago, Chad now can be only semi Trusted around unaltered Male dogs. Kowalski will be fixed at six months of age wether people think I should give him some time to get a bit braver sense he's such a scaredy cat or not. I can't go through the hell on earth fights Chad has gotten himself into. He's come at and taken on full grown 110 pound German Shepherds, and walked away with out a scratch. Chad can not be trusted off Leash anywhere, this is why you'll never see Pics of Chad outside beyond our backyard with out a Leash and Coller on. 

So, to say will I know a real fight when I see one, yes you will, and pray you never do. I've seen fights a ton of them and not all of them with Chad. We had another Boston mom had purchessed because of his impressive Blood lines as a puppy, he hit six months of age and turned into a deamon possessed, Buddy is the only dog to this day that has bitten me hard enough for me to require stitches and this only happened because I managed to sepperate him from the dog he'd latched onto (a Yorki) And lifted it into the air, he jumped and grabbed my arm.

Buddy was neutered and rehomed, He recently with in the last six months got into a fight with a Boxer and lost an eye. So even fixing your dog dosn't always nip the aggression issue in the Bud. It takes a lot of work and patients and time. 

What happened with your dogs was not a true fight, just a scuffle, the elder dog was telling the Puppy ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! And that is all.

And I third the quite fighting, Chad never makes a noise when he's fighting and neither did Buddy, just growls.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Yeah, if there is a lot of noise then its usually not a terribly serious (intent to kill) fight. I've seen 2 serious fights, they were both pretty quiet compared to most other fights. 

OP, it sounds like your dog was just telling the puppy off. Your dog tried more subtle ways, the pup didn't listen, so your dog went more severe. Sounds like the puppy got the message too.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

Also, I think it's important to note that not all adult dogs like puppies. I guess kind of like not all adult humans like babies/toddlers.

Puppies are annoying. They jump, they chew with razor sharp teeth, they sometimes don't know when to stop. My girl loves puppies, but she does have her limit. I do allow Elka to communicate to the puppy and correct them, but if the puppy isn't listening then I step in and remove the puppy.

So far I've only had one - a miniature poodle foster - that drove both of us absolutely batty. Thankfully it was a one-night foster. This 16 week old puppy had no idea when to stop. I apologized to Elka for 2 days straight. =)


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