# Puppies at night and litter boxes



## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Hi all,

I've been considering getting a puppy (an Alaskan Klee Kai to be exact) for about a month now, doing research along the way and talking to breeders (and crantastic of this forum).

I recently put down a deposit to be on a breeder's waiting list. And now I'm trying to do more research and make sure getting a puppy is a good idea for me.

My main concern right now is puppies and night time. My family likes dogs, but are worried about not getting sleep at night because of him. The whole getting a puppy idea was mine to begin with, and I love dogs, so I would not mind losing sleep personally. (I'm 21 by the way, if anyone is wondering).

My plan for the puppy so far involves building a play area within my bedroom, about 15-20 sq ft (5x3' or 5x4') with a litter box and the puppy's crate. I'd be building the play area out of wood (covered in linoleum/other plastic) and I'm making one of the walls collapsible so I can expand the play area with a metal play pen.

First of all, is this a good idea? I was turned to the idea of using a litter box by the breeder I talked to.

If I leave the puppy's crate open at night, would he go and use the toilet himself instead of crying?

I've also read about setting alarms for every 2hrs, 3hrs, etc to wake myself up and take the puppy to potty.

So my biggest concern is, is it possible for me to take care of the puppy without it waking up my family? (myself excluded, I can lose sleep)

I've also been compiling a list of do's and don'ts along with a much larger overall plan as I do more research (already read all of the stickies). I'll post another thread with my overall plan a little later for critiques and hints.

Thanks everyone!


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Also, would another possible plan be for me to just sleep early (8pm?) with the puppy and wake up early with it? To minimize the amount of disruption to my family and neighbors at night.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I prefer the method of setting an alarm every two hours at first, rather than letting the puppy wake you up. My pup is a whiner in his crate and I didn't want to encourage whining for any reason, so I made sure someone took him out often enough at first. 

The play area sounds like a puppy paradise, but it also sounds like a lot of work. They grow out of the puppy stage so fast, so building something large and expensive might be a waste in the long run. You can get an xpen and crate and be set with those for a couple months until he's more reliable, and then he might not need either.

I haven't used a litter box with a dog because I didn't want to encourage going in the house, ever. As long as you are able to come home and let him out often enough, it shouldn't be necessary if you have a crate. I do know that Dunbar encourages litter boxes for puppies who have to be alone for long periods of time, but my guy didn't have trouble holding it 3 hours at a time in his crate.

Now whether it's possible for the puppy to be quiet is another thing! Puppies do generally cry in their crates for at least the first couple days, no matter how often you take them out to potty. It's just something most people deal with and the only way to get through is ignore and praise when they're quiet. I don't think there's any foolproof way to keep a puppy from crying ever. At least my puppy only cried when we went to bed and when he thought it was time to get up in the morning, so it's not like he was waking us up all night long (we did set the alarm though)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Unless your family are crazy light sleepers, or you are a crazy heavy one, I don't think you are going to have an issue beyond the first night or two (puppies WILL cry and complain about being alone those first few nights in a crate or x-pen). Most of those middle of the night potty trips result in very little noise - pup cries, you take it out, it pees, you both sleep again - except at the start where it'll object to being alone in the crate, no matter what time of day.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Honestly, although it sounds like it would be a fun place, I wouldn't worry about building this play area. Puppies need constant supervision, really. So, unless you want to hang out in your bedroom most of the time, it doesn't seem like the puppy would be in the play area that much....know what I mean?

Lots of folks use crates to confine the puppy when they can't watch them, and I guess you could use the play area for that. It just sounds like a lot of expense and work, when the puppy will grow out of it.....
Crates are movable, and are great to have in case you need to travel with the puppy ever, or if your puppy needs to stay over at the vets, being used to a crate can help. 

I also wouldn't use the litter box unless you plan on using it forever, because really, it just teaches them it's ok to pee/poop in the house....
Very young puppies, like super young, may need an inside place to potty, and by that I mean young enough to still be at the breeders' home. So, maybe that's what the breeder had going on for the puppies. But, that's mainly because very young puppies don't even know how to potty on their own right away, they have to be taught by mama, and then, they really have to go potty every 20 minutes or so, so having the inside potty place when they're first born is different, in my opinion.

Also, some people with small breed dogs like to have their dogs go potty inside, permanently. I have small breed dogs, and I don't like that, but, to each his own, right? Some people that have health limitations or disabilities aren't able to take their dogs outside often enough, so they choose to inside train, too. BUT, the vast majority of us train the puppy from the beginning by taking them out to potty. It's just easier in the long run.

So, overnight, I would set my alarm, and take her out. In the beginning, maybe 2-3 times a night, depending on how early you go to bed, and how early you wake up. Really, it should be no fun, all business when you take her for midnight potty trips. And, then back to bed.

As for being quiet, it will depend on the puppy's personality. My first puppy was fine in the crate at night from the second day. My second puppy cried for about 5-10 minutes for the first week and a half, but, then she settled down. The third puppy cried for 5 minutes for 5 days.....it just depends. 
But, you can try to cover the crate with a dark blanket, that sometimes helps puppies settle, and you can put an unwashed piece of your clothing in the crate with her, because your scent can be comforting to her. You can also ask the breeder for a toy that she played with at the breeder's home, and put that in the crate because that scent will comfort her, too (it's like a transition from her old home to her new home).


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Im mainly considering the litter box since i live on the 6th floor and probably wouldnt make it downstairs fast enough if the puppy decides he has to go on his own schedule lol

The playpen thing would be made from some plain wood from home depot or some lumber store, so i dont expect it to be expensive, but yea maybe the effort alone is not worth it. I just dont want the pup to have an accident and my floors end up soaking in urine.

Makes me a bit relieved to see your replies though, I searched about puppies crying at night on these forums and saw quite a few horror stories.

From what i read, placing the crate on a stool so the puppy can see you as he sleeps sometimes works as well, so ill try both methods and see what works. Open crate with litter box vs closed crate but closer to me.

EDIT: didnt see your post before i replied doxie, oops. and i too would prefer my pup to go outside, but i like the idea of having a place for the pup to go just in case.

even if my puppy cries for 30 mins before settling down i can deal with that, as long as it doesnt wake everyone up in the middle of the night for attention. so this is all good news to me. as long as its possible for my family, and not necessarily me, to sleep thru the night, thats good enough lol.

thanks for the tip bout asking the breeder for the pups favorite toy btw, sounds like a good idea.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Yes, I can see how being on the 6th floor could be a problem.....however, I would still suggest starting right with outside, not inside. There are folks here who live in the same situation, maybe one of them will chime in with tips. Anyway, a litter box is better, in my opinion, than those silly puppy pads. I made the mistake of using puppy pads with my first puppy because we were in an apartment, and quite far from an appropriate outside area.....
However, my puppy decided, since it was ok to pee on the pads, it was also ok to pee on anything even close to being pad-like, like throw rugs, door mats, a sweatshirt I accidentally left on the floor, etc....

So, at least with a litter box, you won't run into that problem! 

And, if you have a balcony, or patio of some type, you could try to make that the "outdoor" area until the puppy's old enough to make it down 6 floors without having an accident. That way, you could make some kind of a distinction between outside and inside....


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

If you do use a litterbox, I would get rid of it as soon as you possibly can. Dogs do best with black and white. Yes or no. If you want to have a backup to use "sometimes" your dog will think that means "anytime." Once you establish using a litterbox as a habit, it is much much harder to break that habit than it would have been to housebreak just to the outside from the beginning.

A lot of puppies can be managed quite well with one trip outside in the middle of the night on most nights (there are always those certain nights that don't work so well) even from the beginning. Part of it is management, mainly picking up the water about 45 minutes before the last trip outside at night. Also scheduled meal times, not over feeding, and finding a food that produces a small firm stool. Since you have a long trip to go outside, pick her up as you get her out of the crate and carry her outside. It's not unusual for puppies to be able to phase out the middle of the night trip within a month or so. Hopefully you will be so lucky!

I would advise against the large puppy play area. If you leave her in this area unsupervised, she WILL get in the habit of going to the bathroom in there. A crate works because it is a small confined area that the dog naturally does not want to soil because they can't get away from the mess. The exception would be if there are times that she needs to be left alone for periods of time longer than she can/will keep her crate clean. In that case, the larger area with a litterbox is much preferrable than letting her mess her crate. But again, phase that out as soon as possible. It does make housebreaking a more drawn out process. Once she is 100% completely reliably housebroken, you could try giving her a larger area to stay in if you wish.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

With my puppies, they slept in a closed crate appropriate for their size in our bedroom. (I've borrowed a ton of smaller crates from friends as my boys grew.) They cry, we go out for them to pee/poop, and they go back into their crate. It really is as easy as that. You really shouldn't be thinking play pens or litter pans for puppies at night. Think crate with the door closed. 

The boys' crates are still in our bedroom.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Hmm I see, so the general consensus is that litter box is bad right?

Definitely, I want the pup to only go outside by the time it grows up. But I thought at a young age, these puppies cant even go outside because they dont have all their vaccinations yet right?
I did some research and it seems like puppies get their last shots around week 16. So if I go by the months + 1 rule for how long they can hold it, they'd hold it for 5 hours.
Thats manageable for me at night but for the days im at work I'd still need the litter box until the pup matures.

Some background info about me: Im 21, getting my masters and working part time (2 days a week). So during the days I work I'd have to rely on friends to drop by and take the puppy out if I dont use a litter box. 
On the days I have class, I'd only be gone for 3-4 hours at a time so the puppy wouldn't need a litter box.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the cons of litter box:
- Puppy learns its okay to go in the house (but would at least stick to the litter box.. right?)
- Will make house training later on harder.
- But its not actually physically bad for the puppy right? No hygiene issues from doing this, etc.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

When I have raised puppies in the winter time I have used a litter box with wood pellets in it. It is too cold in the winter here for a young puppy to go outside and I have never had a problem switching them to going outside when they are old enough. I set up a pen with the litter box, their food and water and a bed in an open crate at first. When they are not going during the night, I start locking them in the crate at night beside my bed and start taking them outside. If I have to be away for more than three or four hours, I put them back in their pen and they can use the litter box or if they are older, back into their crate.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The majority of people still take puppies out to potty without their shots - it's just done in a private yard or something where other dogs aren't commonly running around. Certain areas are also low risk for parvo (talk to your vet) and it's not necessary to be so cautious. I took my pup everywhere before his shots were complete, because I got the ok from the vet. Some vets might advise that you don't visit dog parks or places with lots of dogs, but give you the ok to hang out in non-dog areas. But your puppy will absolutely need to leave the house for socialization, especially with an AKK as they have a tendency to shyness. You might just have to do that socialization by carrying the puppy in your arms and taking it to friends' homes, but he'll have to get out.

I would really recommend you come home at lunch or find someone who can let your pup out. 16 week old puppies really shouldn't be left alone for 8 hour days. It will also be able to go to the bathroom anywhere while you're gone and could develop some bad potty habits. It's possible it would get the hang of the litter box and use that exclusively while you're at work, but I think it's easier in the long run to just make arrangements for someone to let it out of a crate in the middle of the day. 

Most people don't use a litter box, so it's hard for us to say if he'd use it exclusively. It's possible that he would decide to just go in the corner of his play area and not in the litter box at all and you won't be there to redirect and clean it up.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> When I have raised puppies in the winter time I have used a litter box with wood pellets in it. It is too cold in the winter here for a young puppy to go outside and I have never had a problem switching them to going outside when they are old enough. I set up a pen with the litter box, their food and water and a bed in an open crate at first. When they are not going during the night, I start locking them in the crate at night beside my bed and start taking them outside. If I have to be away for more than three or four hours, I put them back in their pen and they can use the litter box or if they are older, back into their crate.


Sounds similar to what I want to do, so I'm glad to hear it works for you. Thanks! 



elrohwen said:


> The majority of people still take puppies out to potty without their shots - it's just done in a private yard or something where other dogs aren't commonly running around. Certain areas are also low risk for parvo (talk to your vet) and it's not necessary to be so cautious. I took my pup everywhere before his shots were complete, because I got the ok from the vet. Some vets might advise that you don't visit dog parks or places with lots of dogs, but give you the ok to hang out in non-dog areas. But your puppy will absolutely need to leave the house for socialization, especially with an AKK as they have a tendency to shyness. You might just have to do that socialization by carrying the puppy in your arms and taking it to friends' homes, but he'll have to get out.
> 
> I would really recommend you come home at lunch or find someone who can let your pup out. 16 week old puppies really shouldn't be left alone for 8 hour days. It will also be able to go to the bathroom anywhere while you're gone and could develop some bad potty habits. It's possible it would get the hang of the litter box and use that exclusively while you're at work, but I think it's easier in the long run to just make arrangements for someone to let it out of a crate in the middle of the day.
> 
> Most people don't use a litter box, so it's hard for us to say if he'd use it exclusively. It's possible that he would decide to just go in the corner of his play area and not in the litter box at all and you won't be there to redirect and clean it up.


I live in NYC and there are plenty of dogs in my area (and at least 3-4 in my building) so I'd be pretty worried about taking my puppy out without full vaccinations. Especially since people around here have a bad habit of not cleaning up after their dogs, sigh. I'd check with the vet though, so thanks for the suggestion.

And yea, I was planning on carrying the puppy in one of those carrier bags and taking him to my friends houses for early socialization.

I'd come back during lunch but its an 1hr 20min commute to my job ):
And yea, I was planning on having my girlfriend drop by to let him out and play with him while I'm at work. But of course I want to assume the worse (that my gf may be busy) and prepare for that.

I noticed that lol. Did a search on these forums and online in general, didnt find much information about litter boxes. The breeder I'm talking to tells me she has had clients who live in apartments and they have good luck with litter box training. So that gives me some hope.

I do plan to take a week off of work when I get the puppy though, so hopefully I can train him enough to minimize accidents, but I realize thats hopeful thinking for a single week of training lol.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think this is probably a big city thing. Most people here probably don't live in a high rise in a large city, so the litter box thing is never really an issue. I can see how it would be much more convenient if you lived many floors up, and had no private area to take the dog.

Not sure what parvo is like in NYC, but I'm about an hour north and it's very very low here. Definitely worth asking. It can vary so much by area. But carrying your puppy from place to place is always the safest option.

Since you won't be able to make it home (and the long commute will probably make his time alone longer than 8 hours, right?) a pet sitter/dog walker could be a great option. They could just stop in to feed him and give him some time to run around and play.

And yeah, a single week of training won't do a whole lot. Puppies can't really control their bladders until 6 months, so until then it's mostly management and taking them out all the time.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I think this is probably a big city thing. Most people here probably don't live in a high rise in a large city, so the litter box thing is never really an issue. I can see how it would be much more convenient if you lived many floors up, and had no private area to take the dog.
> 
> Not sure what parvo is like in NYC, but I'm about an hour north and it's very very low here. Definitely worth asking. It can vary so much by area. But carrying your puppy from place to place is always the safest option.
> 
> ...


lol yea, its quite a bit different I'd imagine. I cant just throw on a bathrobe and walk outside in my slippers. Gotta actually get dressed and put on shoes (since I dont want to step into my nasty elevator and sidewalk in my sleep clothing or home slippers).

I do wish more people in the city visited forums like this though, maybe then I wouldn't see so many puppy-mill supporting stores ):

And yea, sadly if I'm working id be gone from the house for up to 10 hours. So for that I'm really looking for options. Having my GF drop by, or maybe even letting the puppy sleep over for the two days of the week that I work. Another option would be for me to sacrifice some time in terms of commuting, and split my 16 hour work week into three or four days.

Would a single week of consistent training at least get the puppy to use the litter box _most _of the time?


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I've been following the thread, but just so I can gain knowledge because I didn't have advice that would be good enough. When and how is it ok to start socialization? also as long as the puppy isn't in a place where dogs usually are they can use it for potty training? Just looking for some clarifications.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

kcomstoc said:


> I've been following the thread, but just so I can gain knowledge because I didn't have advice that would be good enough. When and how is it ok to start socialization? also as long as the puppy isn't in a place where dogs usually are they can use it for potty training? Just looking for some clarifications.


This position statement from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior says it well. http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization1-25-13.pdf

I, and virtually every other dog show person I know, begin socialization early and it has proven to be extremely safe if you do it properly.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Thanks for the link  it helped out alot


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