# APBT Breeders ... OMG!



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

This is not for me, but a friend was interested in an APBT (she wanted one from a breeder initially) but every breeder website we went to showed these grossly deformed, overly stiocky dogs that looked like they couldnt even walk around the yard.

needless to say she is going to go through rescue/shelter now because we couldent find a decent breeder, also every site we went to boasted "gotti" & "razor's edge", both of which I have nevr heard of before ... does anyone know why this is? why they are breeding dogs like that?

I would personally (though I didnt tell my friend this) rather get a little game-bred pittie from the newspaper then one of these dogs, they couldnt do dog sports if they wanted to uke:


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

Personally, if your looking for a well bred "Pit" I would start with the AKC website and look under Am Staffordshire Terriers or Staffordshire Terriers breeders.. You can also contact the UKC and/or National American Pitbull Terriers Association.. http://www.napbta.com/ good luck...


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> also every site we went to boasted "gotti" & "razor's edge", both of which I have nevr heard of before ... does anyone know why this is? why they are breeding dogs like that?


 I have heard of "razor's edge" before, those are the ones with the ears that are like tight triangles for ears  I'm not sure about the "gotti" ones  I'm not sure about the breeders but you should rescue  not trying to tell you what to do but there are just so many pit x in rescues and shelters  poor things


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Easy, those are not true American Pit Bull Terriers, those are Am Bullies (not to be confused with american bulldogs). Razor's Edge and Gotti lines are Am Bully lines. 

You can find great APBT breeders if you dig deep enough. 

One great kennel I know of, they are in Washington I believe, but may be able to direct you to someone in the area, is Caragan Kennels. 

Or you can go through UKC, ADBA, or NAPBTA.


http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fpid=12 (there are 7 TX APBT clubs)


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

RE & Gotti are undesirable bloodlines that have done quite a bit of damage in the APBT. Some of the dogs actually have mixed pedigrees with hung papers. There have even been attempts to get the registrations on the dogs pulled and/or halted. Those lines are mostly used by unscrupulous breeders looking to make a buck and Am. Bully breeders (most of which are also, crap breeders. But there are some that are fleshing the Am.Bully out into a respectable breed and trying to do right by it and I have respect for those individuals so long as they don't register the dogs as something they're not and Am. Bullies are *NOT* APBT.) 

You will not find a well bred "APBT" through the AKC, those are AST and there IS a difference. Your best bet would be to find one through the UKC, ADBA or NAPBTA. Unfortunately, even among breeders breeding actual APBT, not many are doing so in a particularly responsible manner. Try and select a breeder who competes in humane venues with their dogs (ideally a sport in addition to, or instead of, conformation ring for this breed, such as field trials, tracking, agility, weight pull, OB, ect) and *who health tests*. This breed has had a lot of damage done to it and the only breeders that should be supported, imo, are the ones going the extra mile to try and improve the breed's situation on all fronts. 

Choose a breeder who is breeding true to breed dogs (not breeding for color, huge size, heavy weight, bulky frames, big heads, short legs, extreme features, ect). Avoid any breeder who appears to be breeding for trends or who advertises or brags about breeding for traits that are abnormal to the breed.

Or best yet: adopt.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> I have heard of "razor's edge" before, those are the ones with the ears that are like tight triangles for ears  I'm not sure about the "gotti" ones  I'm not sure about the breeders but you should rescue  not trying to tell you what to do but there are just so many pit x in rescues and shelters  poor things


No, you're thinking of cropping. Razor's Edge is a bloodline founded by Dave Wilson, a line he admitted cross-breeding (and registering as purebred apbt) in order to produce the dogs that started the American Bully trend/breed. Gotti is another line over-bred for trends & color and is also heavily contributed to American Bullies.

And Rescue is definitely an excellent option for adding an APBT to one's family


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

A rescue would also be ok for her, she could find the temperment she wants (a companion that she could possibly do agility or obedience with) at the shelters I told her swome shelters would let her take the dogs out & spend some time outside of the shelter enviroment in an enclosed area & work with the dogs a little bit that she might be interested in. 

I also think an adult would be better for her due to the fact that puppies can be a crap shoot in the best of circumstances, even from the best breeders. but the one concern is she has another dog, is the stigma surounding pitties & other dogs true? are all of them DA?


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> No, you're thinking of cropping. Razor's Edge is a bloodline founded by Dave Wilson, a line he admitted cross-breeding (and registering as purebred apbt) in order to produce the dogs that started the American Bully trend/breed. Gotti is another line over-bred for trends & color and is also heavily contributed to American Bullies.
> 
> And Rescue is definitely an excellent option for adding an APBT to one's family


 I'm sorry, I confused them. I should have looked into it before replying  thank you for correcting me


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> A rescue would also be ok for her, she could find the temperment she wants (a companion that she could possibly do agility or obedience with) at the shelters I told her swome shelters would let her take the dogs out & spend some time outside of the shelter enviroment in an enclosed area & work with the dogs a little bit that she might be interested in.
> 
> I also think an adult would be better for her due to the fact that puppies can be a crap shoot in the best of circumstances, even from the best breeders. but the one concern is she has another dog, is the stigma surounding pitties & other dogs true? are all of them DA?


If she has another dog and doesn't want to deal with possible DA issues it is absolutely best for her to adopt a 2-3 year old. By that age it's pretty safe to assume if they were going to be dog aggressive it would have already shown itself.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm sorry but real American Pit Bull Terriers are VERY athletic dogs

This is an American Pit Bull Terrier, I would check out ADBA shows to talk to breeders! If you're looking for a REAL pit bull :










This is an American Bully They are registered with the ABKC










This is an American Staffordshire Terrier Registered with the AKC :









This is a staffordshire bull terrier










There are bad breeders of ALL of these breeds. Just like there are bad breeders in all breeds, you just need to take the time to research and find the right breeder.If a Bully breeder is producing dogs that can't really walk or exercise, than they are a bad breeder. There are some GREAT looking bullies though.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Also when you type in google, if you want to look for REAL pit bull breeders, type "American Pit Bull Terrier kennel" Rather than just pit bulls. NOT every kennel that comes up will be a pit bull kennel, but there will be less bully kennels. I would suggest she do further research of the breeds, so she can learn the differences between them, and look for breeders of the bully breed she wants..Or rescue, i love rescue..


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Eh, even the good ABPT breeders aren't anyone I'd deal with. I've yet to see one who advocates or does pre breeding testing (APBT are ALL HEALTHY. Apparently.), there's a lot of 19 dogs in a yard on tie outs, and these pictures:










seem to be required, but, HELLO! Can you not see the neck damage going on there? I think that's supposed to show me how strong and drivey the dog is (and that particular dog is lovely, don't get me wrong), but holy heck, look at the angle the neck is bent at!

So, yeah, rescue.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

i think his neck looks funny because hes looking over at something.

but yeah ... i hate to see dogs on tie outs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> A rescue would also be ok for her, she could find the temperment she wants (a companion that she could possibly do agility or obedience with) at the shelters I told her swome shelters would let her take the dogs out & spend some time outside of the shelter enviroment in an enclosed area & work with the dogs a little bit that she might be interested in.
> 
> I also think an adult would be better for her due to the fact that puppies can be a crap shoot in the best of circumstances, even from the best breeders. but the one concern is she has another dog, is the stigma surounding pitties & other dogs true? are all of them DA?


If she's got another dog, then a young adult pit bull from a rescue or shelter is a very good choice. NO, not all of them are DA by any means. But I do agree that you cannot be sure when dealing with a puppy and the potential for DA is definitely there (and doesn't have anything to do with good vs bad breeding) and can show up around maturity. I'd look for a dog about 2-3 years old, not less than 2 years old. I think dog selectivity is more common than full out all-dog aggression but as a rough estimate, I think maybe 15-20% of the pit bull/bully breeds (all rescues so unknown exact breed) have some level of dog aggression. Some are fine with the dogs they live with and fine with appropriate introductions but are very iffy with strange or pushy dogs while some cannot be trusted with any dog even under close supervision.

The other benefits are that she can dog test with her dog- it isn't always the pittie that doesn't get along with the other dog of course. She can also look for a dog with the build and temperament for whatever sports she might be interested in. For example, Luna (pit bull) had a great ball drive and was a fit compact 40 lbs but could have done well at some dog sports and loved weight pull. Frankie (pit bull mix) weighed in at 50 lbs but had a different build and wasn't quite as suited to weight pull and had a little lower ball drive. The pit bull puppy I have now (purebred as far as I know given the backstory on him) has minimal ball drive and is way too young for weight pull.

While I have no issue with truly responsible breeders, I think the APBT is one breed that rescue /shelters should always be the first stop. There are so many amazing and fit and good tempered pit types in shelters and because of the advantages of getting an adult dog to lesson the chances of problems with dog aggression. It is also IMO really hard to find a responsible APBT breeder, maybe more so than most other breeds.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Amaryllis said:


> Eh, even the good ABPT breeders aren't anyone I'd deal with. I've yet to see one who advocates or does pre breeding testing (APBT are ALL HEALTHY. Apparently.), there's a lot of 19 dogs in a yard on tie outs, and these pictures:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've met a few breeders who advocate health testing on their dogs, and i know of a LOT of pit bull people who advocate health testing for any breeder. And seriously a lot of people take pictures of their dog like that just for the picture to show the dog off, usually the dog has a toy in front of it or something it isn't like the dog is always pulling like that.I don't have a problem with a responsible chain set up on a dog.. It's a GREAT way to contain a dog who would otherwise escape!!


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Shell said:


> While I have no issue with truly responsible breeders, I think the APBT is one breed that rescue /shelters should always be the first stop. There are so many amazing and fit and good tempered pit types in shelters and because of the advantages of getting an adult dog to lesson the chances of problems with dog aggression. It is also IMO really hard to find a responsible APBT breeder, maybe more so than most other breeds.


I think you just need to know where to look, yeah there are a lot of crappy breeders, but there are a decent amount of good breeders. I have rescued many bully breeds, but my next dog will be a full bred APBT pup. I want to show my dog and participate in sports, i would know where my dog comes from and i would know for a fact that my dog was APBT. I would like to avoid genetic problems, and that's why my next dog is going to be from a breeder. I have already started looking for breeders and I have come across some that i have REALLY liked


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

LOL.

A dog pulling baited by a toy for a picture, which takes all of 2 seconds to snap is definitely severely damaging his neck.. Yep.. Um, no. I've gotten that same crap from people who've seen pictures of my dogs pulling. I can assure you, a few minutes of pulling in a collar for a picture isn't going to phase these dogs. 

And naturally, I agree with everything that's been posted by Adjecyca1.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Tainted said:


> LOL.
> 
> A dog pulling baited by a toy for a picture, which takes all of 2 seconds to snap is definitely severely damaging his neck.. Yep.. Um, no. I've gotten that same crap from people who've seen pictures of my dogs pulling. I can assure you, a few minutes of pulling in a collar for a picture isn't going to phase these dogs.
> 
> And naturally, I agree with everything that's been posted by Adjecyca1.


Tainted I was hoping you would reply.

this is what I mean ... & this is a "thin" "APBT" or so they are called :/ how can this dog work???

















-this one looks like he cant even stand right on his hind legs 








-they even look crippled as puppies  I feel sorry for these dogs.

THIS to me is what a "real" APBT should look like:


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> Tainted I was hoping you would reply.
> 
> this is what I mean ... & this is a "thin" "APBT" or so they are called :/ how can this dog work???
> 
> ...


Yeah, those first couple of dogs definitely aren't APBT's. 

Those last two actually look more AmStaff-ish than APBT to me. The dog Adjecyca1 posted, along the following are examples of what I think of as "real", if you will, APBT's (random google images).


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I think you just need to know where to look, yeah there are a lot of crappy breeders, but there are a decent amount of good breeders. I have rescued many bully breeds, but my next dog will be a full bred APBT pup. I want to show my dog and participate in sports, i would know where my dog comes from and i would know for a fact that my dog was APBT. I would like to avoid genetic problems, and that's why my next dog is going to be from a breeder. I have already started looking for breeders and I have come across some that i have REALLY liked


I'm not saying you cannot find good APBT breeders, just that I think it is much harder in comparison to finding a good breeder of some other common breeds. It may also vary more by region. 

I still think that Dogdragoness's friend would be better served by a careful survey of available pit bull types in rescue and finding one that is compatible with her dog and has good structure. If she's interested in serious dog sports, she could consider having xrays done (at her expense) on the most likely potential adoptive dog. An adult also gives the benefit of being able to jump right into sports and running etc that you can't do with a puppy.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

She knows you can't do any physical sports with a puppy. But there are ways to mentally prepare a puppy for those sports that don't require physical exertion.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> THIS to me is what a "real" APBT should look like:


As Tainted said, those aren't real APBTS, the dogs she posted are though


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Shell said:


> I'm not saying you cannot find good APBT breeders, just that I think it is much harder in comparison to finding a good breeder of some other common breeds. It may also vary more by region.
> 
> I still think that Dogdragoness's friend would be better served by a careful survey of available pit bull types in rescue and finding one that is compatible with her dog and has good structure. If she's interested in serious dog sports, she could consider having xrays done (at her expense) on the most likely potential adoptive dog. An adult also gives the benefit of being able to jump right into sports and running etc that you can't do with a puppy.


 Alright, and yeah that i guess you may have to look harder for an APBT breeder than a breeder for say, a golden retriever. I just felt like people were dissing on my breed of choice, and saying no one should get a APBT from a breeder cause they're all crap, and that is FAR from the truth, but i understand what you are saying.

And i think for most people a rescue pit bull type is a GREAT choice, i use to work in a shelter, and the amount of pit bull type dogs that couldn't find a home broke my heart. Such beautiful sweet healthy dogs, whose only fault is being unwanted! Getting a dog from a rescue, or an adult dog, will give them a better feel for the animals temperament, while with a puppy some characteristics might not appear until the dog matures.I love all of my shelter dogs, my one shelter dog is by far my heart dog!! i just don't have a problem with someone getting a dog from a breeder if that's what they want!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I just felt like people were dissing on my breed of choice


Trust me, dissing your breed of choice is about the last thing I would do 

































I do just very very much agree with this:


> And i think for most people a rescue pit bull type is a GREAT choice, i use to work in a shelter, and the amount of pit bull type dogs that couldn't find a home broke my heart. Such beautiful sweet healthy dogs, whose only fault is being unwanted!


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> This is not for me, but a friend was interested in an APBT (she wanted one from a breeder initially) but every breeder website we went to showed these grossly deformed, overly stiocky dogs that looked like they couldnt even walk around the yard.


Welcome to the world of American Bullys, NOT APBTs. It's a different breed that started off from a mixture of American Stafforshire Terriers and APBTs that have been bred for their huge chest and heads and deformities. I can honestly tell you that APBT people are horrified by that and do NOT condone it. In fact we are pretty angry about it.




> needless to say she is going to go through rescue/shelter now because we couldent find a decent breeder, also every site we went to boasted "gotti" & "razor's edge", both of which I have nevr heard of before ... does anyone know why this is? why they are breeding dogs like that?


There are so many Pits in shelters your friend should be looking to the shelter in the first place. There are a lot of different type of APBT breeders out there and I can tell you that unless you are already in the breed you aren't going to get a APBT from a good breeder. As an APBT owner and future show dog owner of the breed, there are very few kennels I would even touch anymore. I know more then I should about the breeders in the breed and I'll tell people to go to the shelter before a breeder. 

As for Gotti and Razors Edge, they are bloodlines of APBTs that have become the stock base of the new breed American Bullies. Razor edge dogs use to be some great pit dogs, but they because wildly popular and over sold and everyone and their brother now has "Blue nose Gotti/Razor Edge" dogs. Now I'm seeing a lot of "Chinaman" dogs which makes me want to punch people (Chinaman was a great pit dog that was over bred because he was a good fighting dog).



> I would personally (though I didnt tell my friend this) rather get a little game-bred pittie from the newspaper then one of these dogs, they couldnt do dog sports if they wanted to uke:


American Bullies aren't sports dogs. There are some of the more classic types that are, but most of the XXL dogs are lucky to get out of bed in the morning. Also getting a dog from the paper isn't going to do you any good. Honestly I wouldn't want a "game bred dog" they are more skiddish dogs then the Pitterstaffs that are more common now (American Pit Bull Terrier/ American Staffoshire Terriers bloodlines)



dagwall said:


> If she has another dog and doesn't want to deal with possible DA issues it is absolutely best for her to adopt a 2-3 year old. By that age it's pretty safe to assume if they were going to be dog aggressive it would have already shown itself.


Not always. Some dogs just don't turn on until they are nearing 5 years old. When you adopt a Pit Bull type dog you should assume there's a chance that one day your dog won't like other dogs. Simply put.



Amaryllis said:


> Eh, even the good ABPT breeders aren't anyone I'd deal with. I've yet to see one who advocates or does pre breeding testing (APBT are ALL HEALTHY. Apparently.), there's a lot of 19 dogs in a yard on tie outs, and these pictures:


A lot of old school breeders are still getting into health testing because with the APBT for the longest time there wasn't a real need because a game tested Pit, if it was faulty it wasn't going to make it out of the pit alive. There are a lot of kennels out there that are health testing though, but the breed as a whole, if you don't count American Bullies, are pretty healthy. The thing I see the most cropping up in the breed are ACL tears. 

Also I'd rather see APBT kennels on a tether system then in a kennel. It's a lot safer for the dogs. Remember APBTs tend to be Dog aggressive, athletic, and SMART dogs. Scaling a 6ft fence is NOTHING for this breed. Just recently I heard about someone's bitch scaling a fence and getting killed by another dog. The tethering system not only keeps the dogs safer but gives them much more room to move in. Those dogs in a good tethering kennel still get worked more then those dogs in a normal kennel environment. 




> Can you not see the neck damage going on there? I think that's supposed to show me how strong and drivey the dog is (and that particular dog is lovely, don't get me wrong), but holy heck, look at the angle the neck is bent at!


Pictures are used like that to show off a dogs muscle tone, he's going after a toy or something, it's not something he's always doing. Also notice they are using a good 2 inch collar? That's the PREVENT neck issues. So yeah, there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.

Anyways if you aren't getting a dog for working, then go for a rescue dog. I have two rescued Pits and they are GREAT. There are so many in shelters you'll have plenty of options


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Amaryllis said:


> seem to be required, but, HELLO! Can you not see the neck damage going on there? I think that's supposed to show me how strong and drivey the dog is (and that particular dog is lovely, don't get me wrong), but holy heck, look at the angle the neck is bent at!
> 
> So, yeah, rescue.


I doubt it does anymore or less damage than the breeders who post pictures of their dogs with their head held up high in a show lead.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm sorry I wasn't aware that those really stocky dogs were "American bullies" were another separate breed. 

I apologize for my mistake.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> As Tainted said, those aren't real APBTS, the dogs she posted are though


Yep, Agreed x3


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Alright, and yeah that i guess you may have to look harder for an APBT breeder than a breeder for say, a golden retriever. I just felt like people were dissing on my breed of choice, and saying no one should get a APBT from a breeder cause they're all crap, and that is FAR from the truth, but i understand what you are saying.


Honestly though, as an APBT lover myself, its NOT all that far from the truth. A good majority of "Pit bull" breeders are exactly that: Crap.

No matter how you shake it with this breed, most (not all, but most) of the breeders are slacking off somewhere.

Either they're producing mongrels. Or they're not doing anything to prove the dogs in a humane venue. Or they're proving but breeding away from traditional type or not health testing or both. 

And while this is a traditionally healthy breed, that can easily change and very quickly. As it is, Skin conditions and HD is becoming increasingly more common with many BYB dogs. Many of which are registered and bred like crazy.

There are a lot of breeders with some good dogs, but that doesn't make them good breeders. This breed NEEDS breeders that will go the extra mile for it now. We have enough crappy and half-arsed breeders producing, and over-crowded shelters. There isn't any reason at this point to support them and a lot of reason to put pressure on them to either improve their breeding programs or get out.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I agree with most of what you said but...


> Honestly I wouldn't want a "game bred dog" they are more skiddish dogs then the Pitterstaffs that are more common now (American Pit Bull Terrier/ American Staffoshire Terriers bloodlines)


I'm sorry but i haven't met one real APBT that was skittish. Dogs from game lines are perfectly good house pets, and are FAR From skittish. Nervousness in ANY bully breed is a fault, and a dog that is nervous should not be bred. I don't know what APBT's you've met, but they weren't a good representation of the breed if they were skittish..For a dog to even be "game bred" it's parents would have needed to do something illegal, there is a difference between "game lines" and "game bred" and somehow i doubt you've met many real game bred dogs, since the breeders of said dog most likely WOULDN'T admit to the dog being game bred since it's illegal to have game dogs.Have you ever been to an ADBA show? Were those dogs skittish? Because every time i've been to one i saw a bunch of happy go-lucky wiggle buts who may REALLY not like other dogs, BUT LOVE people.

Even a lot of fighting dogs love people, i remember watching a "Pit Bull" documentary, and the animal control officer went into a yard with over 40 APBTs, she said everytime she raids these yards the dogs are ALWAYS as sweet as can be and dying for attention.. You can even go look up some old yards and see that most of the dogs seem VERY happy to see people. 


Do most of these dogs look nervous to you?


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Gumiho said:


> Honestly though, as an APBT lover myself, its NOT all that far from the truth. A good majority of "Pit bull" breeders are exactly that: Crap.
> 
> No matter how you shake it with this breed, most (not all, but most) of the breeders are slacking off somewhere.
> 
> ...


Okay i NEVER said that there aren't a lot of BAD breeders, i am very aware of that MOST of the breeders are bad.Most bad breeders aren't breeding APBTS, not saying there isn't a large amount of bad breeders breeding APBT, but the common BYB isn't breeding an apbt. Most of the dogs in the shelter, aren't APBT.It is FAR from impossible to find a good APBT breeder. I'm aware of all those other things, that is a product of bad breeding, but there are many good breeders who have their heart in the breed and are trying to do whats best for them, and using BYB dogs as an example doesn't really prove anything because we ALL know that bybs don't care for health before breeders. BUT THE GOOD BREEDERS DO, & there are a decent amount of good breeders, who do care about health and temperament and working ability, just because a dog is registered doesn't mean the person should be breeding it.. Registries are corrupted and just want money. I do NOT support BYB's, but I DO support good breeders. The GOOD breeders make SURE the dogs they produce do not end up in shelters.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I agree with most of what you said but...
> 
> I'm sorry but i haven't met one real APBT that was skittish. Dogs from game lines are perfectly good house pets, and are FAR From skittish. Nervousness in ANY bully breed is a fault, and a dog that is nervous should not be bred. I don't know what APBT's you've met, but they weren't a good representation of the breed if they were skittish..For a dog to even be "game bred" it's parents would have needed to do something illegal, there is a difference between "game lines" and "game bred" and somehow i doubt you've met many real game bred dogs, since the breeders of said dog most likely WOULDN'T admit to the dog being game bred since it's illegal to have game dogs.Have you ever been to an ADBA show? Were those dogs skittish? Because every time i've been to one i saw a bunch of happy go-lucky wiggle buts who may REALLY not like other dogs, BUT LOVE people.
> 
> Even a lot of fighting dogs love people, i remember watching a "Pit Bull" documentary, and the animal control officer went into a yard with over 40 APBTs, she said everytime she raids these yards the dogs are ALWAYS as sweet as can be and dying for attention.. You can even go look up some old yards and see that most of the dogs seem VERY happy to see people.


Maybe skiddish was the wrong term, they are really too soft of dogs. Compare a game bred dog to a pitterstaff and they are much softer, harder to work with. 

Also rarely are ADBA dogs actual game bred dogs. You won't find any REAL game bred dogs out at shows (since you know they are ILLEGAL). There's a big difference between Game bred dogs of the past and wanna be "game bred" dogs. And yes I have been to an ADBA show thank you very much. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Amaryllis said:


> Eh, even the good ABPT breeders aren't anyone I'd deal with. I've yet to see one who advocates or does pre breeding testing (APBT are ALL HEALTHY. Apparently.), there's a lot of 19 dogs in a yard on tie outs, and these pictures:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ummmm My father bred APBTs for oh.... 25 years.... 

And Neck Damage? From What? That photo? LOL


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And if anyone stopped to think about it.... It is difficult to keep APBTs with proper temperaments in a kennel.... If the temperament is correct the dogs are likely to fight through the kennel fence...


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

On the comment of why they started breeding them stocky. They bred the short stocky versions that I have heard a few reasons. Now Called american bullies. ( although some still claim as ABPT ) Aside being appealing to the eyes to some. It makes them undesirable as a fighting dog ( not flexible ) and also they are trying to breed out dog aggression. I understand those reasons but I am really hard pressed to like any APBT breeder simply because SO MANY get euthed everyday. I know that is not their fault but when a few million get killed why breed more? Every given week there is about 6+ adds in our paper for pit puppies...and our shelters all of them in the area are 99% pits.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I wish I could post pics but I'm not on my computer right now but I did google "chinaman pit bulls" & some nice looking dogs came up (albeit most are prolly from fighting breeders ... Which is sad )


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Dogdragonness, Google Matrix APBT, or Lar-San bloodline. Both are some of my favorite dogs out there. I could send you a list of breeders but you wouldn't be able to get a dog from them, I couldn't even get a dog from them and I know people in the breed that can vouch for me.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> Dogdragonness, Google Matrix APBT, or Lar-San bloodline. Both are some of my favorite dogs out there. I could send you a list of breeders but you wouldn't be able to get a dog from them, I couldn't even get a dog from them and I know people in the breed that can vouch for me.


 I don't know anything about "Matrix" dogs, but i do not consider Lar-San dogs to be apbt at all, i was going to get a Lar-San dog, until i researched the bloodline further... If you want a Lar-San dog i can give you the contact to a really good breeder who health tests the dogs, and their dogs are awesome! but they are not APBT.


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

Finding a true APBT is really difficult nowadays- most kennels breed "bullies" (I don't see how the meet with the breed standard, though). And you most certainly do not want the Razoregde lines. 

Finding the right breeder can take _months_. Try to find a breeder who health and PAT tests the puppies, and the dam and sire of course. Do not rush into things, it's always better to find a perfect breeder so the chances of getting a puppy with flawed temper won't be as high- better safe than sorry. 

It took my two years to find a breeder I liked and a dam and sire with decent temperament when I got my Labrador... there were only three breeders in my area at the time.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Aska said:


> And you most certainly do not want the Razoregde lines.


What's the problem with Razor's Edge dogs?


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

Tainted said:


> What's the problem with Razor's Edge dogs?


I don't hace a problem with them but OP wants the "old type". I find all APBT handsome, bully type or not.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Aska said:


> I don't hace a problem with them but OP wants the "old type". I find all APBT handsome, bully type or not.


Ah, I see. The way you had it worded sounded like you may have had, the way you were singling out RE dogs alone.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I don't know anything about "Matrix" dogs, but i do not consider Lar-San dogs to be apbt at all, i was going to get a Lar-San dog, until i researched the bloodline further... If you want a Lar-San dog i can give you the contact to a really good breeder who health tests the dogs, and their dogs are awesome! but they are not APBT.


Lar-San dogs are Pitterstaffs which are very much APBT's much more then American Bullies. Now if you are talking old school lines, that's a whole different topic. Most normal folks can't handle a real, 100% backed from Game bred, over seas lines. I would NEVER recommend old school lines to someone new to the breed. 

This is one reason why I hate how the breed has been turned to. You have old school APBTs, you have ADBA APBTs, you have wannabe UKC APBTs (Pitterstaffs although there are a lot of Pitterstaffs that look more Pit then Staff which is what I prefer), you have ASTs (which are still APBTs in many places), then you have the American Bullies.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Tainted said:


> What's the problem with Razor's Edge dogs?


Old school RE, nothing at all. Current RE dogs, you have to watch so closely because everyone and their brother has a RE dog that they breed the heck out of. RE and Gotti are the back bone to American Bullies (which I don't have an issue with when they are done correctly and health tested, but you rarely find those breeders) so now the lines seem to be heavily medically unsound. Which is sad because it use to be a great line.


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

Tainted said:


> Ah, I see. The way you had it worded sounded like you may have had, the way you were singling out RE dogs alone.


The Razor Edge bloodlines are the only ones I've read about. I did an essay on how the newer lines in many breeds are different from their origin and the difference between American lines and European ones. 

I have nothing against newer lines if it's not putting the dogs in any danger. I even find RE dogs stunning, I have a soft spot for them- I don't know why.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> Lar-San dogs are Pitterstaffs which are very much APBT's much more then American Bullies. Now if you are talking old school lines, that's a whole different topic. Most normal folks can't handle a real, 100% backed from Game bred, over seas lines. I would NEVER recommend old school lines to someone new to the breed.
> 
> This is one reason why I hate how the breed has been turned to. You have old school APBTs, you have ADBA APBTs, you have wannabe UKC APBTs (Pitterstaffs although there are a lot of Pitterstaffs that look more Pit then Staff which is what I prefer), you have ASTs (which are still APBTs in many places), then you have the American Bullies.


 Pitterstaffers aren't APBT, the only APBT is the American Pit Bull Terrier! Amstaffs aren't APBT, they may have came from APBT, but they are not.


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## marti1357 (Jun 8, 2013)

Interesting thread. I am also one of the few (apparently very few) people who is looking for a real pit bull puppy from a breeder. Just one of these dogs under 70 lbs. I want a puppy because I want to raise it. I am also an advocate of the breed, in public discussion about legislating out breeds. Many many people want pit bulls out.
However, when searching the web, I was shocked by what pops up: not only razor edge or Gotti, but also Nitro... The common names: "Steel Jaws", "Rock Solid", Jaws of Iron, Invincible beasts. One breeder mentions the sire with a head larger then a lion. In the pictures, all dogs are chained (with chains used to anchor boats) and 3" wide spiked collars. No other breed of dogs is portrayed like that. None. 
1) If these Am bullies are not pit bulls, why do they pop up when typing "Pit Bull"? 
2) I can only conclude that there is no market for normal pit bulls (like for other breeds) and hence almost no breeders like for Labs, Goldens or Beagles. 
3) Sadly, the dogs are the first victims of this unusual situation.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

marti1357 said:


> I want a puppy because I want to raise it.


If you are ONLY looking for a puppy because you want to raise a dog from puppyhood, there are many many APBT type dogs available as puppies in rescue. 

There are other reasons to look for a breeder, but if simply wanting a pit type puppy under 70 lbs full grown is your goal, you are highly likely to find that with just a little searching via a shelter or rescue. Even wanting a known "APBT" (by the pedigree at least) is possible from rescue if you have patience. I know the pit rescue I foster for has had a handful of those in the last year and an additional 15 or so puppies of mixed breed (presumably) but very much APBT physical characteristics.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

marti1357 said:


> Interesting thread. I am also one of the few (apparently very few) people who is looking for a real pit bull puppy from a breeder. Just one of these dogs under 70 lbs. I want a puppy because I want to raise it. I am also an advocate of the breed in public discussion about legislating out breeds.
> However, when searching the web, I was shocked by what pops up: not only razor edge and Gotti, but also Nitro... The common names: "Steel Jaws", "Rock Solid", Jaws made of Iron, Invincible beasts. One breeder mentions the sire with a head larger then a lion. In the pictures, all dogs are chained (with chains used to anchor boats) and 3" wide spiked collars. No other breed of dogs is portrayed like that. None.
> 1) If these Am bullies are not pit bulls, why do they pop up when typing "Pit Bull"?
> 2) I can only conclude that there is no market for normal pit bulls and hence almost no breeders like for Labs, Goldens or Beagles.
> 3) Sadly, the dogs are the first victims of this unusual situation.


The reason American Bullies pop up is because most American Bully breeders like to call their dogs Pit Bulls, I figure it gets them more business because people don't know any better and when they think of a Pit Bull most people think of an American Bully anyway. To create an American Bully, you bred outside of APBT, and so that is why they are not APBT. 

I will say I have been seeing a change with some in the American Bully world, and they realize their dogs are not APBT, and they have stopped calling them that. 
If you wanna learn about APBT bloodlines go to ADBA show, type in google "American Pit Bull Terrier Breeders" instead of just Pit Bulls, Look up the different bloodlines and talk to people in the APBT world, if you wanna know more about the true APBT and want me to show you breeders just PM me!



Shell said:


> If you are ONLY looking for a puppy because you want to raise a dog from puppyhood, there are many many APBT type dogs available as puppies in rescue.
> 
> There are other reasons to look for a breeder, but if simply wanting a pit type puppy under 70 lbs full grown is your goal, you are highly likely to find that with just a little searching via a shelter or rescue. Even wanting a known "APBT" (by the pedigree at least) is possible from rescue if you have patience. I know the pit rescue I foster for has had a handful of those in the last year and an additional 15 or so puppies of mixed breed (presumably) but very much APBT physical characteristics.


I think rescue is a great start for people just getting into bully breeds!


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## Blizzard182cold (Jun 10, 2020)

kcomstoc said:


> I have heard of "razor's edge" before, those are the ones with the ears that are like tight triangles for ears  I'm not sure about the "gotti" ones  I'm not sure about the breeders but you should rescue  not trying to tell you what to do but there are just so many pit x in rescues and shelters  poor things


They are not apbt that bloodline look for bloodlines like Eli Jeep Kingfish Homer Carver dogs Tudor dogs Cooby dogs and such


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## Blizzard182cold (Jun 10, 2020)

Blizzard182cold said:


> They are not apbt that bloodline look for bloodlines like Eli Jeep Kingfish Homer Carver dogs Tudor dogs Cooby dogs and such


Edit Colby


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

7-year-old thread.


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